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OCTOBER CONFERENCE
"Past, Present, and Possibilities"
Oct. 18-20, 2013




















 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



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[Portland Post-Mor...] 
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[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
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Will Mitt Romney Ride the White Horse?  
Posted: 04 June 2007 03:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
hotrod
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This article in today's Salt Lake Tribune discusses Mitt Romney and the White Horse Prophecy.  The comments following the article are interesting. 
     http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_6055090
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Posted: 04 June 2007 03:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Grape Nephi
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Maybe he should ride into DC on a Donkey.


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Posted: 04 June 2007 03:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Grape, I think Mitt would rather ride into DC on an elephant.
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Posted: 04 June 2007 04:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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hotrod:This article in today's Salt Lake Tribune discusses Mitt Romney and the White Horse Prophecy.  The comments following the article are interesting. 
     http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_6055090

I definitely recall this from my high school seminary classes. The instructor sure didn't approach it  from the "lore" angle. We sponges came out of there having the heebee-geebees of how terrible "the last days" are going to be. No ifs, ands, ors about it.  He talked about things being so bad that if there was a bag of gold lying on the ground and next to it a loaf of bread, we would choose the loaf of bread. Yeah, like in your dreams, bucko!
I also recall a specific incident that is included in there somewhere...something about two LDS missionaries in the Middle East area to be martyred...something about sign of the times, the trigger of the Coming...anyone remember how that went?
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Posted: 04 June 2007 05:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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rosetta stone
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I got it from my parents and in high school seminary, and it definitely wasn't passed on as merely amusing lore.
What I find interesting is the assertion that the White Horse prophesy is "ridiculous", yet finding gold plates and transcribing them into the Book of Mormon isn't.  I don't know why Mormon are in reverse gear, backing 90 mph away from this prophesy, it's no more ridiculous than any other last days predictions IMO.
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Posted: 04 June 2007 05:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Grape Nephi:Maybe he should ride into DC on a Donkey.




me after reading Grape's post-------->
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Posted: 04 June 2007 06:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
Hellmut
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I also recall a specific incident that is included in there somewhere...something about two LDS missionaries in the Middle East area to be martyred...something about sign of the times, the trigger of the Coming...anyone remember how that went?

That's the Mormon version of a passage in Revelations 11:
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to aturn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all bplagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shallaovercome them, and bkill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was acrucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
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Posted: 04 June 2007 11:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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hypatia
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Hellmut,
Thank you! That is it. How in the heck did my seminary teacher, in good conscience, manage to put two LDS missionaries in the place of prophets, I will never know. Incredible.

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Posted: 04 June 2007 11:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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No problem, Hypatia. It's a pretty common reading among Mormons.
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UPDATE on Seminary Problems
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Wine was different in Jesus time
by finex
Depression After Resignation
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Church asks activist group to reconsider plans to protest GC
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Spin off Post "Cleaning House" - Genealogy
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I finally bumped into some Mormon missionaries!
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I could use some help!
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Looking for fellow lost souls
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Mormon Church sending people DNA test kits but refusing to comment on results?
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Couldn't a real prophet find that plane?
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I need help more than LDS corp.
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Mormon kitsch
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A Daring Statement by an 8-year-old
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This is Hard
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OCTOBER CONFERENCE
"Past, Present, and Possibilities"
Oct. 18-20, 2013




















 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



Portland Oregon meetup
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Las Vegas March Meetup! Sunday 16th 1pm
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General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
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SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/2)
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March Get Together
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San Diego lunch this Sunday at noon!
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Swearing Elder

General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
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February Meetup Sunday the 16th 2:00pm Grand Cafe at Sunset Station
onendagus

Visitors welcome !
priorvej12

Las Vegas meetup Sun Jan 12th 1pm at Milos in Boulder City
onendagus

January 5th- Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
gypsyrose

Book of Mormon Tories
by Tom Donofrio 
Book of Mormon Tories
by Nogginus Skepticalus 
Native American DNA
by GTM 
Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Reuben

Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Virginia Steve

CALM meet up for June
4bagel

Revised NW Women's Retreat Announcement
lunaverse

Austin Fall Party
lightrider702

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
by Timo 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by ExMoNemo 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Mikki B 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Mikki B

Resignation Letter to My Family
Waveoftruth

Resignation Letter to My Family
In search of Truth

Carolina PostMo Night: “The Master"
Swearing Elder

Washington D.C. Post-Mormon Lunch - August 28
freckles

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Financial Report for 2011 to Date
by Jeff Ricks 
Resignation Letter to My Family
pennw


            

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For you converts  
Posted: 08 June 2007 12:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
snickersprincess
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What about you converts to Mormonism?  How do you guys feel about getting duped so badly?  Did you convert because you were going through a personally tough time in life?  Or did you honestly believe you had found the truth?
It is just that most days-- my only saving grace and "saving face" strategy is to tell myself "Well-- it is not your fault.  You were raised this way.  You would have never believed this crap if you had not been raised on it."
I told my parents, when I "came out" (as a non-mormon) that if the missionaries had come to my door and told me about J.S. and his golden book and how it magically appeared and dissapeared and all the rest of it, I would have said "That is nonsense."
But, I know I am probably giving myself too much credit.  I believed in crystals and tarot cards for a while.  People are just prone to believe siily stuff.
But-- how do you converts FEEL about it?  About buying into the whole thing-- and mabye even pissing family off or alienating freinds-- and then finding out it was a bunch of nonsense?
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Posted: 08 June 2007 12:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Becky
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I'll answer. I was a convert.
I think I believed it because I wanted to believe it. I was fairly newly married with a baby, and my husband's whole family is Mormon. I wanted to fit in desperately with a mother-in-law that I had very little in common with, and a family I had even less in common with.
I think, in some ways, I made myself believe it, if that's possible, just because I wanted those other things so badly.
Nothing about it ever really bothered me until I went to the temple the first time - other than the part about not being with my side of the family in the eternities because they weren't Mormon. The temple was the first big crack in the foundation for me. It was so different from anything else - and not at all what it was proposed to be by family members and during those "temple prep classes".
At first, after we left, I felt really, REALLY stupid. I did feel duped. As I learned and studied more about the church and the history, though, I got angry. Why didn't anyone tell me those things up front?? Why was it all concealed? If someone had told me a lot of the things that I found out later on about, I seriously doubt I would have joined, no matter HOW much I wanted to fit in. At least I'd like to think so.
At this point, though, I don't blame myself anymore. The church is all about finding people who are weak and exploiting them in that time of weakness. That's where I was.
I'm not there anymore. 

   


Posted: 08 June 2007 12:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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dave (e_nomo)
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snickersprincess:What about you converts to Mormonism?  How do you guys feel about getting duped so badly?  Did you convert because you were going through a personally tough time in life?  Or did you honestly believe you had found the truth?
It is just that most days-- my only saving grace and "saving face" strategy is to tell myself "Well-- it is not your fault.  You were raised this way.  You would have never believed this crap if you had not been raised on it."
I told my parents, when I "came out" (as a non-mormon) that if the missionaries had come to my door and told me about J.S. and his golden book and how it magically appeared and dissapeared and all the rest of it, I would have said "That is nonsense."
But, I know I am probably giving myself too much credit.  I believed in crystals and tarot cards for a while.  People are just prone to believe siily stuff.
But-- how do you converts FEEL about it?  About buying into the whole thing-- and mabye even pissing family off or alienating freinds-- and then finding out it was a bunch of nonsense?
Ah, Snickersprincess, every time I read your name I get a terrible craving for chocolate.... 
I was a convert, and I honestly believed I had found the truth.  I was "friendshipped" in, so there was no sudden knock on the door from the mishies with the magical golden book story, etc.  I was sort of "eased into" all the weird stuff. 
I think the people who brought me into the church did it because they were sharing what they sincerely believed too.  So I don't have any ill will towards them. 
I feel less upset about having been duped, and more relief at having figured it out before it really messed up my life. 
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Posted: 08 June 2007 02:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Ed
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I joined the church when I was 15.  I suppose that I was going through a tough time in my life, but really did feel that what the missionaries were telling me was true.  The LDS message is one that is easily debunked if you approach it dispassionately, but it was packaged so nicely that I honestly wanted it to be true when I heard it. 
I started finding about some of the less faith promoting issues (polygamy, masonic temple ceremonies, Book of Abraham, etc) once I had joined the church.  If I had known about any of these while taking the missionary discussions I would have run like h***, which is one of the reasons that the church's missionary program is lightning fast.  Once you are in the church, it is painful to admit that you were fooled, and so you do everything you can to defend it.  I accepted sugar coated nonsense because it was easier for me to swallow than the truth.
To think that LDS church lied to me for so long in order to get my money, my obedience, and my loyalty still makes me sick to my stomach.   I am not as angry as I was when I first decided to leave, but knowing that I wasted 11 years of my life on a lie will always hurt.


   


Posted: 08 June 2007 03:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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I joined for a few reasons:
1. I was just coming out into my own, had a rough childhood & relationship with the parents and didn't know at the time what I wanted out of life. I found a lot of safety in my wife (then girlfriend). Her life seemed to always be put together more than mine so I naturally figured that because they were so adamently mormon that it had something to do with that.
2. She said she wouldn't marry me unless i married her in the temple in addition to a "civil marriage"
3. the missionaries and the church came to me at a time i needed them. See #1 above.
---
I have since done the following:
1. married that girl in the temple and civilly
2. had a child
3. got my BS degree, and one hell of a career
4. made BOATLOADS of money on my own with no help from anyone
5. bought a house
6. straightened everything out with my life

In the midst of all this, I have confessed to my wife that I no longer believe in the church and she supports me 100%. She has even expressed her own doubts as well.
I liken it unto the use of a good tool.
I used the catholic church to learn about christ and love him
I ditched it because I didn't like the church, but still loved christ and his teachings
I joined the LDS church because it had the answers at a time when I needed something sure
I used that "knowing confidence" to springboard my career, education, etc...
I want to leave the LDS church because I grew up beyond what it can provide for me.
I want to leave the LDS church because I believe that I have come to a point where I can retake control over what I know is true. The things that I don't know, I can figure out or be adult enough to admit that I don't know and that it's ok to not know, as long as you keep looking for the answer. 

   


Posted: 08 June 2007 04:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Sestra
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I joined because of interest from discussions with a friend. He was a member but not very active as far as participation was concerned. Well, anyway I studied Mormonism and eventually went to a ward building where the missionaries swooped upon me like vultures. They were nice guys though. I became pretty good friends with one over time. But he was transferred and I eventually was baptized. I had been catholic and then agnostic for 25 years. Just didn't need religion to be a good person. Going back to church felt nice, for awhile. Later I realized that I never did believe in God, didn't like him as portrayed in the Bible, although I liked Jesus' character more. I moved to Utah after feeling that that was where I needed to be. Now that I'm here, I feel further from the church than ever. It was quite some time before I was even recognized in the new ward. I grew bored in church. So....I figure the church provided the impetus I needed to make a change in my life and now I don't need it anymore. Is it bad to feel that way? I feel my church friends will not understand and want nothing more to do with me. 

   


Posted: 08 June 2007 05:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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livefromMO
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I joined because I wanted to believe. On the surface, it all made sense. The missionaries present it as a way to fill in the holes of other religions. And then they pressure you to be baptized as quickly as possible. I was 16, needed the adult support provided in young womens and needed a place to feel unconditionally accepted. And I did. Even when I ended up pregnant and unmarried, my bishop showed me nothing but love. My Relief Society president didn't treat me as a sinner or someone who needed to be coddled -- she treated me like a young, pregnant woman who had morning sickness and needed a hug and to be told it would all be all right in the end. Half the ward showed up to my shotgun wedding, gave us very generous monetary gifts (we were young college students) and still call my mom regularly to find out when I'll be back in town for a visit and want pictures of my kids.
I was only in that ward for a few years. My experience in that ward and another one that was equally as loving and accepting that has kept me in the church as long as I have been. Whenever I miss the church, I realize I'm really longing for those people who are hundreds of miles away.
I experienced unconditional love when I needed it most and I am grateful for whatever path brought those people into my life. That's why I can honestly say I am not bitter about my years in the church nor do I feel they were wasted years. I also know that, sadly, my experience isn't the norm. I was in 2 wards where I could be myself and be accepted. 

   


            
 
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Media Campaign by Church  
Posted: 16 June 2007 07:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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beenthere
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I'm sure this is old news, but....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TYW7aJsuA0&mode=related&search=
(add the = mark if it won't hyperlink)
Anyway, it's just some bits and pieces from the video apperantly being sent to mormons to introduce the new mormon.org.  Why, oh why, if they don't want to be called mormons do they use their missionary site as MORMON.ORG!!! 
I'm disappointed that they didn't ask me to share my testimony for the site.  I would have donated my time and energy for that.
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Posted: 16 June 2007 02:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
MJ75
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My husband is a TBM (I'm a non-member) and I noticed that with me,  he always uses the word "Mormon".  But when he's talking to other mormons,  he uses "LDS".
So I'm wondering if it's a patronizing kind of thing.
A while ago he was telling me something about a bishop.  But he used the word "priest".  I said that I wasn't aware of the mormon church having priests, and he said that he used that word in place of "bishop" because he wanted to use a word that I could relate to.   Which I thought was very condescending because why not just say bishop?
So perhaps they use Mormon.org because that's like their way of saying "We want to use a word that all the 'lil old non-members will recognize."


   


Posted: 16 June 2007 03:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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One of the problems with image that the 'mormons' have was blaringly apparent on this video.  They continue to try to relate to younger people while using a panel of 70 and 80 year old pseudo-experts.  
I've watched over the years at their attempts at becoming a main stream religion, discounting past revelations and comments of the former prophets, distancing themselves from embarrassing events.   This brings to mind the methods and actions of the communists and their treatment of former dictators. 
If a religion is true then it should have been true from the beginning, without the spin doctoring that goes on daily with the morg.  Making changes to doctrine is what politicians have used since our founding fathers, and we all know what a stellar condition politics is in, lying is a way of life.

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Posted: 16 June 2007 04:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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MJ:
My husband is a TBM (I'm a non-member) and I noticed that with me,  he always uses the word "Mormon".  But when he's talking to other mormons,  he uses "LDS".
So I'm wondering if it's a patronizing kind of thing.
A while ago he was telling me something about a bishop.  But he used the word "priest".  I said that I wasn't aware of the mormon church having priests, and he said that he used that word in place of "bishop" because he wanted to use a word that I could relate to.   Which I thought was very condescending because why not just say bishop?
So perhaps they use Mormon.org because that's like their way of saying "We want to use a word that all the 'lil old non-members will recognize."

I think they have had to acknowledge that Mormon is the word by which they are known.  This is a media campaign, and they want Mormon.org to pop to the top when it is searched on-line... not those boards where investigators and members both can be exposed to the non-official story.
I suspect that most here at some point did google Mormon.  It is a natural curiosity for members.
Emilie


   


Posted: 16 June 2007 04:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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That is just histerical.
Man are they desperate.
I love it  when the old geezer says, "Where's our target market (young, married, families) going for information?" and turns to the other old geezer, who says, "They're living with the internet."
And then he says, "Our hope is that Mormon.org is so well designed that it peaks their interest so that they will come to you, the members and get into a discussion a diologue about your faith. And we're going to test that in 6 markets to see if it actually works to attract more members than our current approach. If it doesn't work then we're going to be hard pressed to go back to the President and the Q12 and tell them this is the message we're going to be taking to the rest of the world."
Truth Restored?
That's the message?
Gee. Ya think they'll publish the results of that test if it turns out that people just keep on surfing the internet and end up here or RfM before they go speak with their mormon friends and neighbors?
That'll be hillarious if people are encouraged to go speak with their mormon neighbors about their religion and the first question they ask is,
"Hey, do you really wear magical underwear?"
uh, can't answer that....
"oh did you really swear suicidal oaths in the temple and swear to slit your throat if you ever revealed them outside the temple?"
Uh, can't answer that either.....
"oh. ok. Did you really have an old guy rub down your naked body with oil in the temple?"
Listen, I can't answer any questions about the temple OK?!?!?!?
"OK. Geez. I thought I was supposed to come to you with questions. Allright, I'll steer away from questions about the temple. How about this one then. How many wives did JS have?"
One.
"Wrongo! he had 34. Next question. How many of them were teenagers?"
Dunno.
"11. How many of them were married to other men at the time JS consumated his plural  marriage with them?"
Huh?
"11. How do you reconcile that with D&C 132:61, which defines that practice as adultery?"
Huh? What? Are you calling the founder of my church an adulterer?
"No. It was either God or Joseph Smith himself who authored D&C 132:61 right? Well, whoever authored it, they defined the practice of marrying other men's wives as adultery and that's exactly what JS did, so you do the math."
This discussion is over!
"Wow. That probably didn't go the way the old geezers in SLC planned it."

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Posted: 16 June 2007 05:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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I thought it was hilarious when Ballard basically says that the people who put together this media campaign basically did it all for FREE!!!!!  Because God knows there is no way that the church could afford to pay for their own media campaign!
I also thought it was interesting that they used actors to present the new convert testimonies.

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Posted: 16 June 2007 05:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Viewed the video clip. B-o-r-i-n-g! Real yawner material. Were the old geezers even alive?  Marionettes show more personality. No facial animation, body language or enthusiasm for what is being presented. Golly! They should have collaborated with a teacher or two to get this message accross.
I have to wonder (and not-too-guilty hope) convert and member retention numbers are way low. Enough for them to take more desperate measures as far as keeping numbers up is concerned.  By employing all the media avenues listed, it appears those selected cities will be saturated. I would have thought the LDS missionary program is "blitz" enough for them.
Or perhaps this is an avenue to help with the Mitt Romney campaign? Mitt seems to be presenting himself to the public well enough the LDS Church is going to let him help them look more main-streamed. One old dog shares his bone with the other so they both don't starve. Feels like a lot of backscratching is going on here.
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Posted: 16 June 2007 05:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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helemon
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hypatia: Feels like a lot of backscratching is going on here.

But will it backfire if the media campaign leads more people to the exmo pomo websites?
Will it backfire when Christians learn of the major differences between their brand of Christianity and Mormon beliefs?
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“If a Faith that will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be weak”. George A. Smith August 13th, 1871 Journal of Discourses Vol. 14 pg 216
“As religion is only found in man, so its seed must be in man. Men live always in fear, and make gods of things to praise and blame for their condition.
” - Thomas Hobbes Leviathan


   


Posted: 16 June 2007 05:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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hypatia:Viewed the video clip. B-o-r-i-n-g! Real yawner material. Were the old geezers even alive?  Marionettes show more personality. No facial animation, body language or enthusiasm for what is being presented. Golly! They should have collaborated with a teacher or two to get this message accross.


Hypatia, have you ever viewed any "official" message from the brethren that wasn't as dry and dusty as this video clip. Every talk, faith promotion, declaration etc has the same monotonous old geezer boring feel to it.....
It is like two monkeys hitting me in the forehead with a hammer at 23 second intervals...
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Posted: 16 June 2007 05:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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They're trying really hard to emphasize the restoration of "all of life's great questions." (Why are they calling them great questions?)
I have two comments on that:
1. It seems like the most important questions are answered by traditional Christianity in essentially the same way as in mormon doctrine (there are small differences like the number of heavens or what happened before we came to earth, but they are not that important)
2. They fail to address the implied impotence of a God who is either impotent or cruel: there is "one absolute truth," but 99.99% of all people will never even hear of it. And when they do, it sounds so absurd that they just laugh at it.
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Posted: 16 June 2007 08:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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jahedgpeth:
hypatia:Viewed the video clip. B-o-r-i-n-g! Real yawner material. Were the old geezers even alive?  Marionettes show more personality. No facial animation, body language or enthusiasm for what is being presented. Golly! They should have collaborated with a teacher or two to get this message accross.


Hypatia, have you ever viewed any "official" message from the brethren that wasn't as dry and dusty as this video clip. Every talk, faith promotion, declaration etc has the same monotonous old geezer boring feel to it.....
It is like two monkeys hitting me in the forehead with a hammer at 23 second intervals...

Odd, for me it was like two monkeys hitting me in the forehead with a hammer at 16 second intervals.....
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Posted: 17 June 2007 02:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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shiblom:
If a religion is true then it should have been true from the beginning, without the spin doctoring that goes on daily with the morg.  Making changes to doctrine is what politicians have used since our founding fathers, and we all know what a stellar condition politics is in, lying is a way of life.



Excellent. 
I want to use this line, may I?
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Glenn Beck thinks he will be twinkled, too bad the church doesn’t  
Posted: 16 June 2007 04:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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I caught the tail end of the Glenn Beck show today.  He had the authors of the Left Behind series, Jerry Jenkins and Tim LeHay, on the show.  During the show he clearly says he believes we are living in the end days and he makes a comment about how he'll be right back, unless they disappear, or something to that effect.  Unfortunately for Beck, the Mormon church does not believe in the rapture and most Evangelical Christians do not believe Mormons will be raptured.
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” - Thomas Hobbes Leviathan


   


Posted: 16 June 2007 04:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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helemon:I caught the tail end of the Glenn Beck show today.  He had the authors of the Left Behind series, Jerry Jenkins and Tim LeHay, on the show.  During the show he clearly says he believes we are living in the end days and he makes a comment about how he'll be right back, unless they disappear, or something to that effect.  Unfortunately for Beck, the Mormon church does not believe in the rapture and most Evangelical Christians do not believe Mormons will be raptured.

OMG, is he a Mormon? I had know idea. I read alot of those Left Behind books because my Evangelical friend talked so highly of them. They even scared this TBM at the time. I had to stop reading them. I hoping all that Last days talk is totaly off the mark.
LizaJane  

   


Posted: 16 June 2007 04:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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OMG, is he a Mormon? I had know idea.
Yep
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“If a Faith that will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be weak”. George A. Smith August 13th, 1871 Journal of Discourses Vol. 14 pg 216
“As religion is only found in man, so its seed must be in man. Men live always in fear, and make gods of things to praise and blame for their condition.
” - Thomas Hobbes Leviathan


   


Posted: 16 June 2007 05:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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I saw part of the program this evening, and it was rather timely considering that the Middle East is exploding.
I remember hearing all sorts of blood-curdling things when I was a child.  Growing up in West Virginia meant that there were scores of people addicted to eschatology, especially after the release of Hal Lindsay's Late, Great Planet Earth.  So I've heard so many different end-time scenarios over the years, so here are a few:
Russia and China were "Gog and Magog", and would invade Israel.
Otto von Hapsburg is the anti-christ.
King Juan Carlos of Spain is the anti-christ.
The anti-christ is actually a Jewish physician living in Jerusalem.
The European Union will be the restoration of the Roman Empire.
Roman Catholicism will unite all religions into one enormous evil religion.
Saddam Hussein was the anti-christ, and will rebuild Babylon.
Iraq and Russia will invade Israel.
Russia and Iran will invade Israel.
The "Rapture" was scheduled for Yom Kippur of 1988.
The "#" and "*" keys on the telephone were designed by the anti-christ.
I could spend hours giving an account of all the theories that have been proposed by these people, but the connecting thread is that they never come to pass, and that the free-lance eschatologists in America can make a fortune by attempting to fit some world event to an obscure scriptural phrase.
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Glenn Beck thinks he will be twinkled, too bad the church doesn’t  
Posted: 16 June 2007 04:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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helemon
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I caught the tail end of the Glenn Beck show today.  He had the authors of the Left Behind series, Jerry Jenkins and Tim LeHay, on the show.  During the show he clearly says he believes we are living in the end days and he makes a comment about how he'll be right back, unless they disappear, or something to that effect.  Unfortunately for Beck, the Mormon church does not believe in the rapture and most Evangelical Christians do not believe Mormons will be raptured.
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” - Thomas Hobbes Leviathan


   


Posted: 16 June 2007 04:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
lizajane
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helemon:I caught the tail end of the Glenn Beck show today.  He had the authors of the Left Behind series, Jerry Jenkins and Tim LeHay, on the show.  During the show he clearly says he believes we are living in the end days and he makes a comment about how he'll be right back, unless they disappear, or something to that effect.  Unfortunately for Beck, the Mormon church does not believe in the rapture and most Evangelical Christians do not believe Mormons will be raptured.

OMG, is he a Mormon? I had know idea. I read alot of those Left Behind books because my Evangelical friend talked so highly of them. They even scared this TBM at the time. I had to stop reading them. I hoping all that Last days talk is totaly off the mark.
LizaJane  

   


Posted: 16 June 2007 04:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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helemon
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OMG, is he a Mormon? I had know idea.
Yep
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“If a Faith that will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be weak”. George A. Smith August 13th, 1871 Journal of Discourses Vol. 14 pg 216
“As religion is only found in man, so its seed must be in man. Men live always in fear, and make gods of things to praise and blame for their condition.
” - Thomas Hobbes Leviathan


   


Posted: 16 June 2007 05:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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I saw part of the program this evening, and it was rather timely considering that the Middle East is exploding.
I remember hearing all sorts of blood-curdling things when I was a child.  Growing up in West Virginia meant that there were scores of people addicted to eschatology, especially after the release of Hal Lindsay's Late, Great Planet Earth.  So I've heard so many different end-time scenarios over the years, so here are a few:
Russia and China were "Gog and Magog", and would invade Israel.
Otto von Hapsburg is the anti-christ.
King Juan Carlos of Spain is the anti-christ.
The anti-christ is actually a Jewish physician living in Jerusalem.
The European Union will be the restoration of the Roman Empire.
Roman Catholicism will unite all religions into one enormous evil religion.
Saddam Hussein was the anti-christ, and will rebuild Babylon.
Iraq and Russia will invade Israel.
Russia and Iran will invade Israel.
The "Rapture" was scheduled for Yom Kippur of 1988.
The "#" and "*" keys on the telephone were designed by the anti-christ.
I could spend hours giving an account of all the theories that have been proposed by these people, but the connecting thread is that they never come to pass, and that the free-lance eschatologists in America can make a fortune by attempting to fit some world event to an obscure scriptural phrase.
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Lunch with Romney  
Posted: 18 June 2007 04:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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mamapajama
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Opened a piece of snail mail today, and my husband and I have been invited to a local fundraiser for Mitt Romney.  I can have my picture taken with him for $2300, or we can do it as a couple for $4600.  wOoT!  OR...if I don't want a picture, I can just eat....for $1000/plate.  I honestly don't think I can eat $1000 worth of food. 

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Posted: 18 June 2007 04:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Pebble
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Hey, I got the same invite!  I'm sorry I won't see you there... even if you did decide to go...




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“...then it comes to be, that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel, is just a freight train coming your way.”


   


Posted: 18 June 2007 04:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Pebble:Hey, I got the same invite!  I'm sorry I won't see you there... even if you did decide to go...






Cool! 
Darn it all...I already made other plans for Saturday starting at noon.  Sigh...
::just imagining what I could do with $4600 instead of donating it to "Romney for Prez::  
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You can’t buy it off the shelf,
You got to grow it from the seed ~Chris Smither


   


Posted: 18 June 2007 04:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
jahedgpeth
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What do you think is the connection? Is the Romney campaign using official church mailing lists to solicit campaign funds? Are they doing it from a list of registered Republicans? Are they doing it from a list of people in "Mormon dense" areas such as Utah and Idaho?
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Posted: 18 June 2007 04:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Thankfultobeout
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I live in California, I resigned, and I got an invite also. I don't know if it's just limited to the Utah/Idaho area. I checked my calendar, and darn it, I have other plans. Can't donate the money to get a pretty picture, or even eat all that food. Plus, I can make green jello with carrot strips in it, for a lot less than $1000.00. And funeral potatoes. Thankfultobeout
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Posted: 18 June 2007 04:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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mamajama:
Pebble:Hey, I got the same invite!  I'm sorry I won't see you there... even if you did decide to go...






Cool! 
Darn it all...I already made other plans for Saturday starting at noon.  Sigh...
::just imagining what I could do with $4600 instead of donating it to "Romney for Prez:: 

Yea, actually Dh and I already decided that our $1000 per plate each would be better spent on the Heifer Project (shameless plug for Heifer Int'l).  $2000. buys a lot of goats and chickens for people who really need them!  Sorry Romney... nothing personal... well maybe it is. 
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Posted: 18 June 2007 04:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
jahedgpeth
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Thankfultobeout:I live in California, I resigned, and I got an invite also. I don't know if it's just limited to the Utah/Idaho area. I checked my calendar, and darn it, I have other plans. Can't donate the money to get a pretty picture, or even eat all that food. Plus, I can make green jello with carrot strips in it, for a lot less than $1000.00. And funeral potatoes. Thankfultobeout

It has to be a "Mormon" thing. Maybe they are working off an old list. I dunno.
I doubt the Romney campaign would mail out 100 million invites to dinner to all the house-holds in America. They need to narrow it down and funnel their money to where it will do the most good. Of course, at 1K a plate and 5k for a group photo...I guess they could afford to waste a little bit here and there. I heard Romney is leading the Republicans in campaign funds. Someone REALLY wants him to be elected. I wonder who that could be?
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Posted: 18 June 2007 05:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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jahedgpeth:
What do you think is the connection? Is the Romney campaign using official church mailing lists to solicit campaign funds? Are they doing it from a list of registered Republicans? Are they doing it from a list of people in "Mormon dense" areas such as Utah and Idaho?


I'm a Utah resident, but I was suprised to receive this mailing.  Usually when Dh and I are going through, dividing up the mail, his is all the conservative, right wing repulican sorts, while mine consists more of the liberal, left(ish), animal rights, feminist fare.  Seems I'd be exactly the type Romney camp is NOT trying to woo.  Yet the invitation was addressed to me.  More data needed to solve this...  
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Posted: 18 June 2007 05:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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It has to be a "Mormon" thing. Maybe they are working off an old list. I dunno.
I doubt the Romney campaign would mail out 100 million invites to dinner to all the house-holds in America. They need to narrow it down and funnel their money to where it will do the most good. Of course, at 1K a plate and 5k for a group photo...I guess they could afford to waste a little bit here and there. I heard Romney is leading the Republicans in campaign funds. Someone REALLY wants him to be elected. I wonder who that could be?

They must be working off of a VERY old list.  Which leads me to believe the rumor that even after you resign, your name remains on the roles.  How could they possibly keep those membership numbers up, without counting the ones who have left? 
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Posted: 18 June 2007 05:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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mamapajama
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Pebble:
mamajama:
Pebble:Hey, I got the same invite!  I'm sorry I won't see you there... even if you did decide to go...






Cool! 
Darn it all...I already made other plans for Saturday starting at noon.  Sigh...
::just imagining what I could do with $4600 instead of donating it to "Romney for Prez:: 

Yea, actually Dh and I already decided that our $1000 per plate each would be better spent on the Heifer Project (shameless plug for Heifer Int'l).  $2000. buys a lot of goats and chickens for people who really need them!  Sorry Romney... nothing personal... well maybe it is.

Yea for Heifer Int'l.  It's a great organization. 
Our invitation didn't come from us having Mormon connections.  In fact, the folks hosting the local event at their house aren't even Mormon.  We are not Republicans either, but were selected because somebody felt that we might be inclined to donate.  My husband is in an organization of folks who happen to have money (not us) and a republican slant (not us either, but hey, we live in Utah). 
Jeff, how 'bout this for a Postmormon fundraiser?  I could come up with a cardboard cut-out of Romney, put him at a dinner table, and charge $10 to have pictures taken with him.  Hmmm...maybe not Romney.  How 'bout GBH?  Hmmm...maybe not.  Hey!!  How 'bout Joseph Smith!!!  That's the ticket! 


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You can’t buy it off the shelf,
You got to grow it from the seed ~Chris Smither


   


Posted: 18 June 2007 05:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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hypatia
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Gosh, golly, gee. I have not received my invitation yet.
However, I have been thinking about my friend, Mitt. I am wondering if he confused his favorite book, Battlefield Earth with fellow Mormon Orson Scott Card's Battlestar Galactica? One more change in his position wouldn't hurt.
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Posted: 18 June 2007 05:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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mamajama:
Pebble:
mamajama:
Pebble:Hey, I got the same invite!  I'm sorry I won't see you there... even if you did decide to go...






Cool! 
Darn it all...I already made other plans for Saturday starting at noon.  Sigh...
::just imagining what I could do with $4600 instead of donating it to "Romney for Prez:: 

Yea, actually Dh and I already decided that our $1000 per plate each would be better spent on the Heifer Project (shameless plug for Heifer Int'l).  $2000. buys a lot of goats and chickens for people who really need them!  Sorry Romney... nothing personal... well maybe it is.

Yea for Heifer Int'l.  It's a great organization. 
Our invitation didn't come from us having Mormon connections.  In fact, the folks hosting the local event at their house aren't even Mormon.  We are not Republicans either, but were selected because somebody felt that we might be inclined to donate.  My husband is in an organization of folks who happen to have money (not us) and a republican slant (not us either, but hey, we live in Utah). 
Jeff, how 'bout this for a Postmormon fundraiser?  I could come up with a cardboard cut-out of Romney, put him at a dinner table, and charge $10 to have pictures taken with him.  Hmmm...maybe not Romney.  How 'bout GBH?  Hmmm...maybe not.  Hey!!  How 'bout Joseph Smith!!!  That's the ticket! 




Hmmm... k this last post explains I think why I was issued the invite... certain family connections seem to make sense in this situation and in fact I should probably just leave it at that.  Hmmm... interesting though.
As far as a fundraiser goes... I could get my hands on a copy of JS's death mask... how much do you think a pic with a bonafide (copy) mold of his actual face (colored on with a little bit of crayon) would bring?  Too morbid?  Probably...
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Posted: 18 June 2007 12:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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mamajama:Opened a piece of snail mail today, and my husband and I have been invited to a local fundraiser for Mitt Romney.  I can have my picture taken with him for $2300, or we can do it as a couple for $4600. 
Hey, mamajama tell him he can have his picture taken with you, the Board of Trustees Chair of the infamous Post-Mormon Community, for just $3,000.
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When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine


   


Posted: 18 June 2007 12:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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mamapajama
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Jeff Ricks:
mamajama:Opened a piece of snail mail today, and my husband and I have been invited to a local fundraiser for Mitt Romney.  I can have my picture taken with him for $2300, or we can do it as a couple for $4600. 
Hey, mamajama tell him he can have his picture taken with you, the Board of Trustees Chair of the infamous Post-Mormon Community, for just $3,000.


::spews java on the screen::   Somehow I don't think that will fly, Jeff.  YOU would be a better choice for sure.  Let the board folks know ahead of time so we can trim and polish your devilish horns before the photo op. 
I kinda like Pebble's idea of a photo op with a copy of JS's death mask.  How macabre! 
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[Portland Post-Mor...] 
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[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
[Palmetto Post-Mor...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/2)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
March Get Together
[Idaho Falls Post-...] 
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[San Diego Post-Mo...] 
March 2nd 2014-Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
FEB 22 - First ever Boston Meeting!
[Boston, MA Post-M...] 
Every Sunday in Utah
[Salt Lake City Po...] 
February Meetup Sunday the 16th 2:00pm Grand Cafe at Sunset Station
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
Secret FB group and dinner social
[East Tennessee Po...] 
Feb 2nd Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
[Southern Utah Pos...] 


General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder

General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
dovahkiyn

February Meetup Sunday the 16th 2:00pm Grand Cafe at Sunset Station
onendagus

Visitors welcome !
priorvej12

Las Vegas meetup Sun Jan 12th 1pm at Milos in Boulder City
onendagus

January 5th- Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
gypsyrose

Book of Mormon Tories
by Tom Donofrio 
Book of Mormon Tories
by Nogginus Skepticalus 
Native American DNA
by GTM 
Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Reuben

Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Virginia Steve

CALM meet up for June
4bagel

Revised NW Women's Retreat Announcement
lunaverse

Austin Fall Party
lightrider702

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
by Timo 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by ExMoNemo 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Mikki B 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Mikki B

Resignation Letter to My Family
Waveoftruth

Resignation Letter to My Family
In search of Truth

Carolina PostMo Night: “The Master"
Swearing Elder

Washington D.C. Post-Mormon Lunch - August 28
freckles

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Financial Report for 2011 to Date
by Jeff Ricks 
Resignation Letter to My Family
pennw


            

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 Long Valley Post-Mormons
 Millard County Post-Mormons
 New Hope Post-Mormons of Weber Co.
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Topic Title Replies Views Latest Post Info
 My conversation with a catholic
Author: tibber 2 508  
Posted: 06-21-2007 03:05 PM
Author: tibber 


 “The wine was grape juice”
Author: Dadsprimalscream 11 1151  
Posted: 06-21-2007 01:51 PM
Author: Rich 


 I’m Torn - how to raise my children w/o conflict
Author: unsalvaged 12 1162  
Posted: 06-21-2007 05:54 AM
Author: CdnXMo 


 When I left Mormonism after my entire 20 years of adulthood in the church, my PostMormon father asked me, “Why would you abandon a belief structure th
Author: The PRofit 8 1070  
Posted: 06-21-2007 05:33 AM
Author: beenthere 


 How do Theists answer Carl Sagan’s question in the end of this short (2 min) video?
Author: The PRofit 14 1358  
Posted: 06-21-2007 05:30 AM
Author: beenthere 


 I need help
Author: bear 1 679  
Posted: 06-21-2007 04:01 AM
Author: Dianne Ormond 


 Repression Depression
Author: Eric Young (ImNoSaint) 8 1518  
Posted: 06-21-2007 03:53 AM
Author: Eric Young (ImNoSaint) 


 Diets and Religion
Author: unsalvaged 0 446  
Posted: 06-21-2007 02:29 AM
Author: unsalvaged 


 A Personal Creed: A declaration of my personal spirituality; what’s your personal creed?
Author: enigma 3 819  
Posted: 06-21-2007 02:14 AM
Author: unsalvaged 


 Holy Land Tours?
Author: Crime Dog 1 779  
Posted: 06-21-2007 02:03 AM
Author: Shakjula 


 The “Friend” and Being Ambushed
Author: Goose 4 886  
Posted: 06-21-2007 12:40 AM
Author: Goose 


 Latter Day Saint Movement
Author: Heavenly1 9 1113  
Posted: 06-20-2007 10:24 PM
Author: dave (e_nomo) 


 Conditioned Response to Male Voices
Author: Hastur 18 1297  
Posted: 06-20-2007 07:11 PM
Author: Shakjula 


 Battered (Members) Syndrome
Author: Astarte Moonsilver 4 902  
Posted: 06-20-2007 07:05 PM
Author: Pali Mama 


 Religious Charlatanry as Career Option (Adult - Jeff delete if you want)
Author: Tal Bachman 12 1317  
Posted: 06-20-2007 06:47 PM
Author: Brad (ZeeZrom) 


 “God told me, to tell you, to obey everything I say, and give me money”
Author: Tal Bachman 16 1452  
Posted: 06-20-2007 06:41 PM
Author: Heavenly1 


 Is it really just 10% tithe?
Author: Susan D. 21 1634  
Posted: 06-20-2007 06:29 PM
Author: Iosepa 


 Interesting Father’s Day at TBM parents’ house
Author: Crissy 1 646  
Posted: 06-20-2007 05:57 PM
Author: sica2298 


 This is funny!!!
Author: bigbear 3 819  
Posted: 06-20-2007 04:16 PM
Author: Smitty 


 Complex Adaptive Systems Modeling Project – Bob McCue Looking for a Collaborator
Author: bob mcq 0 964  
Posted: 06-20-2007 03:30 PM
Author: bob mcq 


 New Sound Thinking Magazine entry
Author: Jeff Ricks 0 476  
Posted: 06-20-2007 03:14 PM
Author: Jeff Ricks 


 Time for the “banana grabber” dance?  Maybe?
Author: tibber 18 1192  
Posted: 06-20-2007 02:53 PM
Author: Dylan 


 Trouble being yourself?
Author: JillOut 12 1115  
Posted: 06-20-2007 02:26 PM
Author: JillOut 


 Another misrepresentation
Author: bigbear 2 700  
Posted: 06-20-2007 01:57 PM
Author: Nogginus Skepticalus 


 Some have made the comment about “God before country” with Romney
Author: bigbear 2 691  
Posted: 06-20-2007 12:35 PM
Author: Rich 


 Oh the joy of politics!!!!!!!!
Author: bigbear 0 509  
Posted: 06-20-2007 08:25 AM
Author: bigbear 


 Mythbusters vs Mormonism
Author: Crime Dog 10 1077  
Posted: 06-20-2007 06:50 AM
Author: jahedgpeth 


 Question about garments/temple recommend(ation)
Author: Crissy 8 1091  
Posted: 06-20-2007 05:46 AM
Author: Crissy 


 Funniest comment today…..
Author: unsalvaged 1 727  
Posted: 06-20-2007 03:55 AM
Author: Wilma Fingerdoo 


 I don’t know that we really believe that.
Author: sage 1 551  
Posted: 06-20-2007 03:37 AM
Author: Astarte Moonsilver 


 On True Humility / My Journey from Mormonism
Author: Rich 0 484  
Posted: 06-20-2007 03:22 AM
Author: Rich 


 Your Self: You can’t surrender to ‘God’ that which Mormonism never let you experience (have) in the first place.
Author: CdnXMo 2 677  
Posted: 06-20-2007 02:50 AM
Author: Rich 


 Church psychologically bad
Author: beenthere 6 1036  
Posted: 06-20-2007 12:57 AM
Author: Hueffenhardt 


 Religion vs Belief
Author: Crime Dog 6 812  
Posted: 06-20-2007 12:25 AM
Author: hypatia 


 The church is true, it’s just the people who are imperfect!`
Author: Uppity Woman 23 1499  
Posted: 06-20-2007 12:18 AM
Author: warmfuzzylogic 



  
   

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UPDATE on Seminary Problems
by Edmond Dantès
Just when things start to go well.......
by finex
Wine was different in Jesus time
by finex
Depression After Resignation
by finex
Church asks activist group to reconsider plans to protest GC
by Brad (ZeeZrom)
"Katie Finds a Better Way": A Story for the "Friend" and Musicalkate (New Link)
by Brad (ZeeZrom)
Spin off Post "Cleaning House" - Genealogy
by quietlydifferent
Cleaning House
by blueazure
I finally bumped into some Mormon missionaries!
by Matter Unorganized
Scientology Ripped Family Apart-- Doubting (Could have an article like this on the news every night about Mormonism)
by Strong Free & Thankful
Big Bang Theory Proven--Validation for this Scientist's Life's Work--Beautiful!
by blueazure
Knock on the Door and Bad Memory
by WinstonSmith
I could use some help!
by son of perdition
Looking for fellow lost souls
by Ninon de Lenclos
Mormon Church sending people DNA test kits but refusing to comment on results?
by OldSoul
Couldn't a real prophet find that plane?
by Bold Wish
I need help more than LDS corp.
by victim
Mormon kitsch
by huehuetenango
A Daring Statement by an 8-year-old
by haylee
This is Hard
by Tincan 

  
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OCTOBER CONFERENCE
"Past, Present, and Possibilities"
Oct. 18-20, 2013




















 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



Portland Oregon meetup
[Portland Post-Mor...] 
Las Vegas March Meetup! Sunday 16th 1pm
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
[Palmetto Post-Mor...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/2)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
March Get Together
[Idaho Falls Post-...] 
San Diego lunch this Sunday at noon!
[San Diego Post-Mo...] 
March 2nd 2014-Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
FEB 22 - First ever Boston Meeting!
[Boston, MA Post-M...] 
Every Sunday in Utah
[Salt Lake City Po...] 
February Meetup Sunday the 16th 2:00pm Grand Cafe at Sunset Station
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
Secret FB group and dinner social
[East Tennessee Po...] 
Feb 2nd Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
[Southern Utah Pos...] 


General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder

General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
dovahkiyn

February Meetup Sunday the 16th 2:00pm Grand Cafe at Sunset Station
onendagus

Visitors welcome !
priorvej12

Las Vegas meetup Sun Jan 12th 1pm at Milos in Boulder City
onendagus

January 5th- Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
gypsyrose

Book of Mormon Tories
by Tom Donofrio 
Book of Mormon Tories
by Nogginus Skepticalus 
Native American DNA
by GTM 
Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Reuben

Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Virginia Steve

CALM meet up for June
4bagel

Revised NW Women's Retreat Announcement
lunaverse

Austin Fall Party
lightrider702

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
by Timo 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by ExMoNemo 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Mikki B 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Mikki B

Resignation Letter to My Family
Waveoftruth

Resignation Letter to My Family
In search of Truth

Carolina PostMo Night: “The Master"
Swearing Elder

Washington D.C. Post-Mormon Lunch - August 28
freckles

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Financial Report for 2011 to Date
by Jeff Ricks 
Resignation Letter to My Family
pennw


            

Home Our Community
Discussion Forums
    · The Community Forum
 Post-Mormon Chapters

Chapters in Utah

Cache Valley Post-Mormons
 Calm of N. Davis County and Weber County Post-Mormons
 Calm of South Davis County Post-Mormons
 Calm of Utah County Post-Mormons
 Long Valley Post-Mormons
 Millard County Post-Mormons
 New Hope Post-Mormons of Weber Co.
 Salt Lake City Post-Mormons
 Sanpete County Post-Mormons
 Southern Utah Post Mormon Association
 Uintah Basin Post-Mormons
 USU Post-Mormons
 Other chapters in the USA

Chapters in Canada

Calgary Post-Mormons
 Canada Edmonton Post-Mormon
 Fraser Valley Post-Mormons
 GTA Canada Post-Mormons
 Lethbridge Canada Post-Mormons
 Victoria British Columbia Post-Mormons
 Chapters in Europe

Denmark Post-Mormons
 France Post-Mormons
 North United Kingdom Post-Mormons
 Norway Post Mormons
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 Switzerland Post-Mormons
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 All other chapters

New Zealand Post-Mormons
 Post-Mormons Down Under
 World Map of Chapter Locations
 Starting a Post Mormon Chapter FAQ
 Our Library
It Gets Better!
 Post-Mormon Magazine
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Post-Mormon News Blog
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Forum Home  >  Member Forums  >  The Community Forum 
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1045 of 1089 « First Prev 1043 1044 1045 1046 1047 Next Last »
   

Topic Title Replies Views Latest Post Info
 For those of you have come to the conclusion there is no God…..
Author: beenthere 29 1725  
Posted: 06-26-2007 12:54 PM
Author: rosetta stone 


 So Long
Author: Logan_Gal 30 1947  
Posted: 06-26-2007 08:51 AM
Author: Becky 


 barcodes and temple recommends
Author: Jennifer 6 1081  
Posted: 06-26-2007 08:47 AM
Author: Sakerra 


 Broken Confidentiality
Author: Suspicious Minds 14 1429  
Posted: 06-26-2007 08:08 AM
Author: ThreadKiller 


 Feeling like a Sunni in a Shiite world
Author: streamdream 5 819  
Posted: 06-26-2007 07:34 AM
Author: pnut 


 Why didn’t he drink the booze?
Author: snickersprincess 14 1373  
Posted: 06-26-2007 05:57 AM
Author: krys 


 The terms Rabbi and Rabboni may be anachronistic
Author: Grape Nephi 0 532  
Posted: 06-26-2007 05:12 AM
Author: Grape Nephi 


 death and funerals   ( 1 2)
Author: krys 63 3348  
Posted: 06-26-2007 04:47 AM
Author: beenthere 


 Wow we’ve had a lot of people checking us out lately!
Author: Jeff Ricks 3 850  
Posted: 06-26-2007 04:41 AM
Author: mamapajama 


 Looking for links on Orrin Porter Rockwell
Author: warmfuzzylogic 2 716  
Posted: 06-26-2007 03:45 AM
Author: Emilie 


 A week at Scout Camp
Author: Grape Nephi 18 1640  
Posted: 06-26-2007 01:45 AM
Author: bow_your_head&say_no 


 SHOOT-OUT AT CARTHAGE CORRAL
Author: Pay-Lay-Ale 4 927  
Posted: 06-26-2007 01:07 AM
Author: bow_your_head&say_no 


 San Diego community
Author: Jennifer 0 554  
Posted: 06-25-2007 10:58 PM
Author: Jennifer 


 Get a load of this story - Mitt Romney’s aide resigns
Author: Tal Bachman 7 1273  
Posted: 06-25-2007 09:48 PM
Author: ruski_canuk 


 September Dawn movie pushed off until August 24th
Author: Astarte Moonsilver 11 1290  
Posted: 06-25-2007 08:09 PM
Author: ruski_canuk 


 New Chapter in Salem, Oregon
Author: bear 4 989  
Posted: 06-25-2007 07:08 PM
Author: bear 


 1 Million Pesky Pimple-faced Proletariates Have Served the Party (link)...
Author: enigma 3 881  
Posted: 06-25-2007 07:07 PM
Author: Allegory 


 AUDITORY HALLUCINATIONS
Author: skeptic 2 742  
Posted: 06-25-2007 06:14 PM
Author: skeptic 


 Who was the twelve year old?
Author: free thinker 5 878  
Posted: 06-25-2007 05:55 PM
Author: Goose 


 Mormon Milestone…..
Author: whatever 4 821  
Posted: 06-25-2007 05:30 PM
Author: Jean Valjean 


 Lying for the Lord and Be-Kind/Invisible-Man   ( 1 2)
Author: Jeff Ricks 46 3293  
Posted: 06-25-2007 05:19 PM
Author: Shakjula 


 Greek Anachronisms
Author: Suspicious Minds 13 1179  
Posted: 06-25-2007 05:13 PM
Author: Red Pill 


 Keeping members a challenge for LDS church: SL Tribune Article
Author: jahedgpeth 12 1165  
Posted: 06-25-2007 04:51 PM
Author: Crime Dog 


 Interesting miscarriage/abortion contradiction in church lore.
Author: badutahboy 8 1069  
Posted: 06-25-2007 04:31 PM
Author: Iosepa 


 Patriarchal Blessings
Author: plumvillage 9 1001  
Posted: 06-25-2007 04:16 PM
Author: warmfuzzylogic 


 LDS “world famous scholar” publishes a book (with guess who?)
Author: Tal Bachman 9 1517  
Posted: 06-25-2007 04:03 PM
Author: Jean Valjean 


 “It must have been his time to go”
Author: SuperFeet 10 1223  
Posted: 06-25-2007 03:50 PM
Author: Dogzilla Joy 


 Kind of a touchy subject…
Author: Smitty 11 1160  
Posted: 06-25-2007 03:34 PM
Author: Jean Valjean 


 I finally did it
Author: beenthere 8 1044  
Posted: 06-25-2007 09:59 AM
Author: real deal 


 Atheism and freedom of speech
Author: Cooper 3 737  
Posted: 06-25-2007 05:20 AM
Author: jahedgpeth 


 Looking for Southern Idaho Members
Author: raider 9 1007  
Posted: 06-25-2007 04:41 AM
Author: overhe 


 If We Could Conduct A Survey…..
Author: Crime Dog 13 1365  
Posted: 06-25-2007 04:07 AM
Author: beenthere 


 Jesus and godhood
Author: beenthere 3 855  
Posted: 06-25-2007 04:01 AM
Author: beenthere 


 Seer Stone
Author: Suspicious Minds 5 1539  
Posted: 06-25-2007 03:09 AM
Author: Beaver Creek 


 Be Kind: In Memoriam
Author: Tal Bachman 6 1259  
Posted: 06-25-2007 12:12 AM
Author: plumvillage 



  
   

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UPDATE on Seminary Problems
by Edmond Dantès
Just when things start to go well.......
by finex
Wine was different in Jesus time
by finex
Depression After Resignation
by finex
Church asks activist group to reconsider plans to protest GC
by Brad (ZeeZrom)
"Katie Finds a Better Way": A Story for the "Friend" and Musicalkate (New Link)
by Brad (ZeeZrom)
Spin off Post "Cleaning House" - Genealogy
by quietlydifferent
Cleaning House
by blueazure
I finally bumped into some Mormon missionaries!
by Matter Unorganized
Scientology Ripped Family Apart-- Doubting (Could have an article like this on the news every night about Mormonism)
by Strong Free & Thankful
Big Bang Theory Proven--Validation for this Scientist's Life's Work--Beautiful!
by blueazure
Knock on the Door and Bad Memory
by WinstonSmith
I could use some help!
by son of perdition
Looking for fellow lost souls
by Ninon de Lenclos
Mormon Church sending people DNA test kits but refusing to comment on results?
by OldSoul
Couldn't a real prophet find that plane?
by Bold Wish
I need help more than LDS corp.
by victim
Mormon kitsch
by huehuetenango
A Daring Statement by an 8-year-old
by haylee
This is Hard
by Tincan 

  
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OCTOBER CONFERENCE
"Past, Present, and Possibilities"
Oct. 18-20, 2013




















 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



Portland Oregon meetup
[Portland Post-Mor...] 
Las Vegas March Meetup! Sunday 16th 1pm
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
[Palmetto Post-Mor...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/2)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
March Get Together
[Idaho Falls Post-...] 
San Diego lunch this Sunday at noon!
[San Diego Post-Mo...] 
March 2nd 2014-Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
FEB 22 - First ever Boston Meeting!
[Boston, MA Post-M...] 
Every Sunday in Utah
[Salt Lake City Po...] 
February Meetup Sunday the 16th 2:00pm Grand Cafe at Sunset Station
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
Secret FB group and dinner social
[East Tennessee Po...] 
Feb 2nd Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
[Southern Utah Pos...] 


General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder

General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
dovahkiyn

February Meetup Sunday the 16th 2:00pm Grand Cafe at Sunset Station
onendagus

Visitors welcome !
priorvej12

Las Vegas meetup Sun Jan 12th 1pm at Milos in Boulder City
onendagus

January 5th- Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
gypsyrose

Book of Mormon Tories
by Tom Donofrio 
Book of Mormon Tories
by Nogginus Skepticalus 
Native American DNA
by GTM 
Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Reuben

Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Virginia Steve

CALM meet up for June
4bagel

Revised NW Women's Retreat Announcement
lunaverse

Austin Fall Party
lightrider702

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
by Timo 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by ExMoNemo 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Mikki B 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Mikki B

Resignation Letter to My Family
Waveoftruth

Resignation Letter to My Family
In search of Truth

Carolina PostMo Night: “The Master"
Swearing Elder

Washington D.C. Post-Mormon Lunch - August 28
freckles

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Financial Report for 2011 to Date
by Jeff Ricks 
Resignation Letter to My Family
pennw


            

Home Our Community
Discussion Forums
    · The Community Forum
 Post-Mormon Chapters

Chapters in Utah

Cache Valley Post-Mormons
 Calm of N. Davis County and Weber County Post-Mormons
 Calm of South Davis County Post-Mormons
 Calm of Utah County Post-Mormons
 Long Valley Post-Mormons
 Millard County Post-Mormons
 New Hope Post-Mormons of Weber Co.
 Salt Lake City Post-Mormons
 Sanpete County Post-Mormons
 Southern Utah Post Mormon Association
 Uintah Basin Post-Mormons
 USU Post-Mormons
 Other chapters in the USA

Chapters in Canada

Calgary Post-Mormons
 Canada Edmonton Post-Mormon
 Fraser Valley Post-Mormons
 GTA Canada Post-Mormons
 Lethbridge Canada Post-Mormons
 Victoria British Columbia Post-Mormons
 Chapters in Europe

Denmark Post-Mormons
 France Post-Mormons
 North United Kingdom Post-Mormons
 Norway Post Mormons
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 All other chapters

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 Post-Mormons Down Under
 World Map of Chapter Locations
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Martha Beck and who done it  
Posted: 24 June 2007 10:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
snickersprincess
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Did anyone read that book by Martha Beck called "Leaving The Saints"?  I did.  I liked it.  It was a page turner!  But, here is my question--- for those of you who read it, do you think Hugh Nibley really molested her?
I know her family denies it and says she is making stuff up.  And I have read alot about repressed memory recovery and how many times the "repressed memories" are actaully false memories implanted by over zealous therapist.
I am afraid to submit my vote one way or another, because you never want to blame a victim.  Especailly in childhood molestation.  But, I just wonder if she might be a little crazy.
I read a review for her book on Amazon.com and her ex-husband wrote in to say that she fabricated some of her stories.-- Anyway-- tell me what you think!
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“Where there is doubt, there is freedom.”


   


Posted: 24 June 2007 03:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Uppity Woman
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I have read Leaveing the Saints and Expecting Adam. Niether book paints a very nice picture of the Nibley's. I took a course at BYU where Nibley did a few weeks of the lecture, and he was a really odd guy. It doesn't make him a child abuser though.
I my guess is that if he wasn't a child abuser, it was certainly a very, very disfunctional home. There are more kinds of abuse than one.
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Posted: 24 June 2007 05:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
nochurchinheaven
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Multitudes are leaving the church because they do NOT feel the Spirit of God and sense the evil of satanic, perfectionistic control flowing from the "elite" men high up on their tower of Rameumpton. There is much more to the "bad feelings" the pure hearted members perceive and thus leave the "great and spacious building" (Lehi and Nephi's prophetic warning of the corruption of the church in the "last days" of corruption).
Regarding Martha Beck; she is a brave soul who is telling the truth (a woman is not considered equal to a man in the church). This same activity of secret sexual abuse goes on silently with other elite, prominent LDS families by the (Abrahamic) priesthood holder upon designated children (sometimes adopted for this purpose) who are "sacrificed" to be the "sacred" sexual outlet for occult ritual perversions or to be developed into gays or lesbian leaning - by having sexual abuse at a young age by the same sex gender. Often members of the bishopric or "trusted" postitions.
Very few people ever realize what is really going on behind the closed doors of perfectionism and elitism of the hierarchy of the leaders of the LDS church because very few people do historical research. And few know that the blood oath taken by the brethren is very, very serious having resulted in the deaths of Harold B. Lee (dissolved the Corporation of the President - documented in court for public witness - trying to repent, Howard W. Hunter, disclosed some of the "secrets" - trying to repent, Ezra Taft Benson - declared in "Book of Mormon" Conference that "the church is condemned" - trying to repent and never spoke again (e.g. lobotomy), etc.  Gordie Hinckey has been running the show for quite a while now with theft, murder, lies piling up and justified by him because of his elitist views of himself. Boyd Packard (his henchmen) declared "the east gates of the Moroni Temple opened for Gordon B. Hinckley. This declaration received very little fanfare as no one could fathom the troll Hinckley believes he is Christ incarnate. This is what Howard W. Hunter disclosed to a select few (contained in "apostle's' journals) and was later involved in an "accidental" car accident. Then time had to elapse for a second attempt. Every temple member has sworn a satanic blood oath to NOT reveal the secrets or they WILL "suffer their life to be taken." Howard W. Hunter also disclosed that in the elite level this satanic oath is taken VERY seriously - just like the Skull and Bones Cult organization that the Bushes, Clintons, and other presidents of this country have belonged to. Do the research - truth is coming forth and all secrets are being revealed!!!
The fact is Brigham Young and Heber C Kimball were very high Freemasons (secret blood oaths) sent into infiltrate the church in the 1800s. For confirmation, note page 11 of Heber C Kimball's autobiography where he swears before angels that he has always remained true to his masonic blood oaths and elsewhere in his biography he also notes that he built a masonic lodge prior to his joining the church.  His masonic lodge was burned down when New Yorkers found out the secrets of masonry (worship Lucifer and money) thanks to Mason Colonel Henry Morgan who wrote a book on the subject in the early 1800s and then was murdered by the masons for his huge disclosure. He "suffered his life to be taken" because of his initial satanic blood oath (Moses 5:29 warns that the secret blood oath began with Lucifer and Cain - now done in all Masonic LDS temples).
So what does this have to do with Martha Beck? Among the elite leaders and prominent members of the LDS church, there is a network of secrecy involving occult ritual abuse, sexual perversions, secret deals, money laundering, and huge thefts of member's assets based upon the justification of the temple ceremony of "consecrating my time, talents and all that I posses to the building up of the kingdom of God" (e.g. the church). For references regardin this alarming disclosure, please read "The Paperdolls" a book written concerning the sexual abuse perputrated by many including an apostle's daughter and husband who were involved in sexual abuse within in two affluent neighborhoods in Salt Lake City, please read Presiding Bishop George Pace's interoffice memo regarding occult sexual abuse within the church involving church leaders, temple workers, tabernacle choir members. Hundreds of children across four states were all telling the same scenerio regarding their abuse. This was NOT false memory syndrome - a falsehood initiated by perputraitors who were later quoted as saying that sex with children was ok - do the research). And watch the DaVinci Code and note the activities of the world Grandfather involved in sexual occult activities which DO go on among the masonic elite.
The fact that Martha Beck now has "discovered" that she is a lesbian, which in the eyes of many lessons her credibility, is part of the same pattern involving many mind-controlled victims when they begin talking - others will commit "programmed" suicide. The same thing happened to Michael Quinn - he "discovered" that he was really gay when he fell out of favor for telling the truth. Quinn is an award winning Church Historian - ex'd for proving that women were initially given the priesthood the SAME as men and for exposing the duplicity and lies of the church leaders.
(The CIA MKUltra mind control mostly made up of LDS recruits because they blindly obey was disclosed before a 1979 Congressional Hearing by Senator Frank Church - research it!)
Due to extensive research, conversations with leaders who are trying to repent even though they are fearful for their lives, and a near death experience (Yes, there is a God and the LDS church IS abdominally condemned - also see Jacob 2:23-24, and Jaboc 3 - the cause of the destruction of the Nephites WAS the Satanic practice of polygamy, which has NEVER been of God, also read Alma 11:23-40 for the true identity of God - altered earlyon - that Jesus Christ IS the Eternal Father who came to this earth as a man and therefore, was called "the Son" see Mosiah 15:1-5), I know without a doubt that what I have stated here is true. Each of you have your own free agency to believe whatever you want. God controls no one. The leaders of the church would love to control everyone and do the thinking for them; "when the leaders have spoken, the thinking is done."
Good luck all in your individual search for truth - at least you are no longer in the "great and spacious building" being lead "carefully down to hell" (Nephi 2) by the ANTICHRIST; Hinckley.  It's better to take the path of truth rather than the muddy waters, but either is better than where the majority of ignorant sheep are who poke their fingers at those who wake up and leave the church! 


   


Posted: 24 June 2007 06:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Crime Dog
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nochurchinheaven:(Yes, there is a God and the LDS church IS abdominally condemned - 

I was abdominally condemned once. I think it was some bad nachos.
Clearly, it is time to break out the tinfoil hats, my friends.
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Posted: 24 June 2007 06:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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plumvillage
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I read Martha's book. I related to so much of it. But as I was nearing the end, it just started to seem kind of -- I don't know -- spooky? Her description of her out-of-body experiences, or visions or whatever, sort of turned me off to what otherwise would have been a fabulous read.
My guess is that the whole family is pretty wacky. I'm not going to weigh in on whether or not the abuse really occurred, since I don't have any way of knowing. I wanted to know SO BAD, though! Hopefully Hugh will come forth, George P. Lee-style, one of these days....
It's confusing -- b/c both father and daughter are a little "off."
I guess we'll never know???? ARGGHHH
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Posted: 24 June 2007 07:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Jeff Ricks
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nochurchinheaven:
Multitudes are leaving the church because they do NOT feel the Spirit of God and sense the evil of satanic, perfectionistic control flowing from the "elite" men high up on their tower of Rameumpton. There is much more to the "bad feelings" the pure hearted members perceive and thus leave the "great and spacious building" (Lehi and Nephi's prophetic warning of the corruption of the church in the "last days" of corruption).
Regarding Martha Beck; she is a brave soul who is telling the truth (a woman is not considered equal to a man in the church). This same activity of secret sexual abuse goes on silently with other elite, prominent LDS families by the (Abrahamic) priesthood holder upon designated children (sometimes adopted for this purpose) who are "sacrificed" to be the "sacred" sexual outlet for occult ritual perversions or to be developed into gays or lesbian leaning - by having sexual abuse at a young age by the same sex gender. Often members of the bishopric or "trusted" postitions.
Very few people ever realize what is really going on behind the closed doors of perfectionism and elitism of the hierarchy of the leaders of the LDS church because very few people do historical research. And few know that the blood oath taken by the brethren is very, very serious having resulted in the deaths of Harold B. Lee (dissolved the Corporation of the President - documented in court for public witness - trying to repent, Howard W. Hunter, disclosed some of the "secrets" - trying to repent, Ezra Taft Benson - declared in "Book of Mormon" Conference that "the church is condemned" - trying to repent and never spoke again (e.g. lobotomy), etc.  Gordie Hinckey has been running the show for quite a while now with theft, murder, lies piling up and justified by him because of his elitist views of himself. Boyd Packard (his henchmen) declared "the east gates of the Moroni Temple opened for Gordon B. Hinckley. This declaration received very little fanfare as no one could fathom the troll Hinckley believes he is Christ incarnate. This is what Howard W. Hunter disclosed to a select few (contained in "apostle's' journals) and was later involved in an "accidental" car accident. Then time had to elapse for a second attempt. Every temple member has sworn a satanic blood oath to NOT reveal the secrets or they WILL "suffer their life to be taken." Howard W. Hunter also disclosed that in the elite level this satanic oath is taken VERY seriously - just like the Skull and Bones Cult organization that the Bushes, Clintons, and other presidents of this country have belonged to. Do the research - truth is coming forth and all secrets are being revealed!!!
The fact is Brigham Young and Heber C Kimball were very high Freemasons (secret blood oaths) sent into infiltrate the church in the 1800s. For confirmation, note page 11 of Heber C Kimball's autobiography where he swears before angels that he has always remained true to his masonic blood oaths and elsewhere in his biography he also notes that he built a masonic lodge prior to his joining the church.  His masonic lodge was burned down when New Yorkers found out the secrets of masonry (worship Lucifer and money) thanks to Mason Colonel Henry Morgan who wrote a book on the subject in the early 1800s and then was murdered by the masons for his huge disclosure. He "suffered his life to be taken" because of his initial satanic blood oath (Moses 5:29 warns that the secret blood oath began with Lucifer and Cain - now done in all Masonic LDS temples).
So what does this have to do with Martha Beck? Among the elite leaders and prominent members of the LDS church, there is a network of secrecy involving occult ritual abuse, sexual perversions, secret deals, money laundering, and huge thefts of member's assets based upon the justification of the temple ceremony of "consecrating my time, talents and all that I posses to the building up of the kingdom of God" (e.g. the church). For references regardin this alarming disclosure, please read "The Paperdolls" a book written concerning the sexual abuse perputrated by many including an apostle's daughter and husband who were involved in sexual abuse within in two affluent neighborhoods in Salt Lake City, please read Presiding Bishop George Pace's interoffice memo regarding occult sexual abuse within the church involving church leaders, temple workers, tabernacle choir members. Hundreds of children across four states were all telling the same scenerio regarding their abuse. This was NOT false memory syndrome - a falsehood initiated by perputraitors who were later quoted as saying that sex with children was ok - do the research). And watch the DaVinci Code and note the activities of the world Grandfather involved in sexual occult activities which DO go on among the masonic elite.
The fact that Martha Beck now has "discovered" that she is a lesbian, which in the eyes of many lessons her credibility, is part of the same pattern involving many mind-controlled victims when they begin talking - others will commit "programmed" suicide. The same thing happened to Michael Quinn - he "discovered" that he was really gay when he fell out of favor for telling the truth. Quinn is an award winning Church Historian - ex'd for proving that women were initially given the priesthood the SAME as men and for exposing the duplicity and lies of the church leaders.
(The CIA MKUltra mind control mostly made up of LDS recruits because they blindly obey was disclosed before a 1979 Congressional Hearing by Senator Frank Church - research it!)
Due to extensive research, conversations with leaders who are trying to repent even though they are fearful for their lives, and a near death experience (Yes, there is a God and the LDS church IS abdominally condemned - also see Jacob 2:23-24, and Jaboc 3 - the cause of the destruction of the Nephites WAS the Satanic practice of polygamy, which has NEVER been of God, also read Alma 11:23-40 for the true identity of God - altered earlyon - that Jesus Christ IS the Eternal Father who came to this earth as a man and therefore, was called "the Son" see Mosiah 15:1-5), I know without a doubt that what I have stated here is true. Each of you have your own free agency to believe whatever you want. God controls no one. The leaders of the church would love to control everyone and do the thinking for them; "when the leaders have spoken, the thinking is done."
Good luck all in your individual search for truth - at least you are no longer in the "great and spacious building" being lead "carefully down to hell" (Nephi 2) by the ANTICHRIST; Hinckley.  It's better to take the path of truth rather than the muddy waters, but either is better than where the majority of ignorant sheep are who poke their fingers at those who wake up and leave the church! 

To nochurchinheaven:
Please read our House Rules for posting on this website. In particular please note the following:
"...opinions regarding sensitive issues such as religious preference, sexual orientation, political issues, etc. should always be couched as simply that, personal opinions, rather than as matters of fact. The line has been crossed when someone ceases saying, 'This is what I believe,' and begins saying, 'This is what YOU should believe.' "
You have made some strong accusations with little to no evidence to back them up. They are your opinions and should be stated as your opinions. For the record, they are opinions that are not endorsed by the Post-Mormon Community organization.

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When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine


   


Posted: 24 June 2007 07:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
snickersprincess
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nochurchinheaven:
Multitudes are leaving the church because they do NOT feel the Spirit of God and sense the evil of satanic, perfectionistic control flowing from the "elite" men high up on their tower of Rameumpton. There is much more to the "bad feelings" the pure hearted members perceive and thus leave the "great and spacious building" (Lehi and Nephi's prophetic warning of the corruption of the church in the "last days" of corruption).
Regarding Martha Beck; she is a brave soul who is telling the truth (a woman is not considered equal to a man in the church). This same activity of secret sexual abuse goes on silently with other elite, prominent LDS families by the (Abrahamic) priesthood holder upon designated children (sometimes adopted for this purpose) who are "sacrificed" to be the "sacred" sexual outlet for occult ritual perversions or to be developed into gays or lesbian leaning - by having sexual abuse at a young age by the same sex gender. Often members of the bishopric or "trusted" postitions.
Very few people ever realize what is really going on behind the closed doors of perfectionism and elitism of the hierarchy of the leaders of the LDS church because very few people do historical research. And few know that the blood oath taken by the brethren is very, very serious having resulted in the deaths of Harold B. Lee (dissolved the Corporation of the President - documented in court for public witness - trying to repent, Howard W. Hunter, disclosed some of the "secrets" - trying to repent, Ezra Taft Benson - declared in "Book of Mormon" Conference that "the church is condemned" - trying to repent and never spoke again (e.g. lobotomy), etc.  Gordie Hinckey has been running the show for quite a while now with theft, murder, lies piling up and justified by him because of his elitist views of himself. Boyd Packard (his henchmen) declared "the east gates of the Moroni Temple opened for Gordon B. Hinckley. This declaration received very little fanfare as no one could fathom the troll Hinckley believes he is Christ incarnate. This is what Howard W. Hunter disclosed to a select few (contained in "apostle's' journals) and was later involved in an "accidental" car accident. Then time had to elapse for a second attempt. Every temple member has sworn a satanic blood oath to NOT reveal the secrets or they WILL "suffer their life to be taken." Howard W. Hunter also disclosed that in the elite level this satanic oath is taken VERY seriously - just like the Skull and Bones Cult organization that the Bushes, Clintons, and other presidents of this country have belonged to. Do the research - truth is coming forth and all secrets are being revealed!!!
The fact is Brigham Young and Heber C Kimball were very high Freemasons (secret blood oaths) sent into infiltrate the church in the 1800s. For confirmation, note page 11 of Heber C Kimball's autobiography where he swears before angels that he has always remained true to his masonic blood oaths and elsewhere in his biography he also notes that he built a masonic lodge prior to his joining the church.  His masonic lodge was burned down when New Yorkers found out the secrets of masonry (worship Lucifer and money) thanks to Mason Colonel Henry Morgan who wrote a book on the subject in the early 1800s and then was murdered by the masons for his huge disclosure. He "suffered his life to be taken" because of his initial satanic blood oath (Moses 5:29 warns that the secret blood oath began with Lucifer and Cain - now done in all Masonic LDS temples).
So what does this have to do with Martha Beck? Among the elite leaders and prominent members of the LDS church, there is a network of secrecy involving occult ritual abuse, sexual perversions, secret deals, money laundering, and huge thefts of member's assets based upon the justification of the temple ceremony of "consecrating my time, talents and all that I posses to the building up of the kingdom of God" (e.g. the church). For references regardin this alarming disclosure, please read "The Paperdolls" a book written concerning the sexual abuse perputrated by many including an apostle's daughter and husband who were involved in sexual abuse within in two affluent neighborhoods in Salt Lake City, please read Presiding Bishop George Pace's interoffice memo regarding occult sexual abuse within the church involving church leaders, temple workers, tabernacle choir members. Hundreds of children across four states were all telling the same scenerio regarding their abuse. This was NOT false memory syndrome - a falsehood initiated by perputraitors who were later quoted as saying that sex with children was ok - do the research). And watch the DaVinci Code and note the activities of the world Grandfather involved in sexual occult activities which DO go on among the masonic elite.
The fact that Martha Beck now has "discovered" that she is a lesbian, which in the eyes of many lessons her credibility, is part of the same pattern involving many mind-controlled victims when they begin talking - others will commit "programmed" suicide. The same thing happened to Michael Quinn - he "discovered" that he was really gay when he fell out of favor for telling the truth. Quinn is an award winning Church Historian - ex'd for proving that women were initially given the priesthood the SAME as men and for exposing the duplicity and lies of the church leaders.
(The CIA MKUltra mind control mostly made up of LDS recruits because they blindly obey was disclosed before a 1979 Congressional Hearing by Senator Frank Church - research it!)
Due to extensive research, conversations with leaders who are trying to repent even though they are fearful for their lives, and a near death experience (Yes, there is a God and the LDS church IS abdominally condemned - also see Jacob 2:23-24, and Jaboc 3 - the cause of the destruction of the Nephites WAS the Satanic practice of polygamy, which has NEVER been of God, also read Alma 11:23-40 for the true identity of God - altered earlyon - that Jesus Christ IS the Eternal Father who came to this earth as a man and therefore, was called "the Son" see Mosiah 15:1-5), I know without a doubt that what I have stated here is true. Each of you have your own free agency to believe whatever you want. God controls no one. The leaders of the church would love to control everyone and do the thinking for them; "when the leaders have spoken, the thinking is done."
Good luck all in your individual search for truth - at least you are no longer in the "great and spacious building" being lead "carefully down to hell" (Nephi 2) by the ANTICHRIST; Hinckley.  It's better to take the path of truth rather than the muddy waters, but either is better than where the majority of ignorant sheep are who poke their fingers at those who wake up and leave the church! 



Okay, man-- this whole reply really freaked me out.  That is a whole lot of accusations that may just be conspiracy theory type info.  BUt, too creepy for me!  I honestly was just wondering about everyone's take on the Martha Beck thing.  This reply was just a bit... much.
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Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas- Latin Proverb
“Where there is doubt, there is freedom.”


   


Posted: 24 June 2007 08:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Fairlight
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nochurchinheaven:The fact is Brigham Young and Heber C Kimball were very high Freemasons (secret blood oaths) sent into infiltrate the church in the 1800s. For confirmation, note page 11 of Heber C Kimball's autobiography where he swears before angels that he has always remained true to his masonic blood oaths and elsewhere in his biography he also notes that he built a masonic lodge prior to his joining the church.  His masonic lodge was burned down when New Yorkers found out the secrets of masonry (worship Lucifer and money) thanks to Mason Colonel Henry Morgan who wrote a book on the subject in the early 1800s and then was murdered by the masons for his huge disclosure. He "suffered his life to be taken" because of his initial satanic blood oath (Moses 5:29 warns that the secret blood oath began with Lucifer and Cain - now done in all Masonic LDS temples).

What you've written is interesting.
Can you supply references?
Thanks!
 Signature
“You can improve your life situation, but you cannot improve your life. Your life situation consists of your circumstances and your experiences. Life is primary, life is your deepest inner Being. It is already whole, complete, perfect.” -Eckhardt Tolle, The Power of Now


   


Posted: 24 June 2007 10:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Susan D.
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SP:
I haven't read Martha's book but I did see her on Oprah discussing it.
I would hesitate to ever say I didn't believe someone who claimed to have been sexually abused.  The experience is so traumatic and there are so few "rewards" for letting that information out that I just couldn't say about the truthfulness of those claims. 
I do think it's sad that evidently she has had other "otherworldy" experiences that diminish, in some peoples' eyes, her credibility and her other claims which may or may not be true.   I think I would err on the side of belief just because the shunning, disdain and howls of her being "crazy" would only increase with the allegations involving such a "stellar" LDS scholar as HBN--so what would she have to gain except some money?  No, there is too much to lose for Martha to just have made that up imo.    




   


Posted: 24 June 2007 11:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Susan D.No, there is too much to lose for Martha to just have made that up imo.    

I agree. Abuse charges wreak havoc on families and not because those charges are false. It's because when someone finds the courage to stand up and tell it like it is, both they and the perps stand to lose everything. Too often the family has known all along at some level that the abuse was taking place ... but chose to ignore it. Usually because abuse is intergenerational so you have victims marrying perps and watching their own children be abused just like the victims were abused when they were growing up.
Not only that, the sly and cunning perps tell such slick and almost-believable lies that the fractured, shaken, traumatized victim appears to be lying ... just like the slick perps say (s)he is. What's most tragic is the hell that young victims of abuse are put through when they tell ... so many people and entities re-victimize these kids. It's almost as if everyone says "If you're being abuse, tell until someone listens and helps you." ... while really meaning "We won't ask and you won't tell."
But only the truth will make the victims free and so they tell because they must.
 Signature
“You can improve your life situation, but you cannot improve your life. Your life situation consists of your circumstances and your experiences. Life is primary, life is your deepest inner Being. It is already whole, complete, perfect.” -Eckhardt Tolle, The Power of Now


   


Posted: 24 June 2007 11:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
nochurchinheaven
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I do need to qualify my previous post. First of all, I do know how to spell abominable - I was just in a hurry. AND what I stated is based on years of research, seeking truth in prayer and receiving it (namely, the corruption of church leaders, polygamy, etc.), personal knowledge, and communication with church leaders having been born into an "elite" LDS family, and a Near Death Experience which has so far batted 100% in accuracy so far. In my opinion, each individual can only save her/him self based on a relationship with God. This is my opinion - that there most definitely is a God, in my humble opinion. I haven't ever read Martha Beck's book having just read about her. I believe her regarding the occult abuse by her father because of the same patterns being experienced in other "elite" families, but that doesn't mean that everything she is doing is good.
I am very, very glad to be out of the control of the church.


   


Posted: 24 June 2007 11:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
Hiram Page
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Please tell me that nochurchinheaven is actually Dan Brown giving us a taste of the plot of his new Mason/Mormon thriller. I am *so* reading it, if this is what it's about. The murders of multiple presidents of the LDS Church? Gordon B. Hinckley the evil mastermind? Man, that is soooo wacky. I'd plunk down 9 bucks for a paperback.


   


Posted: 25 June 2007 12:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Pali Mama
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nochurchinheaven:
I do need to qualify my previous post. First of all, I do know how to spell abominable - I was just in a hurry. AND what I stated is based on years of research, seeking truth in prayer and receiving it (namely, the corruption of church leaders, polygamy, etc.), personal knowledge, and communication with church leaders having been born into an "elite" LDS family, and a Near Death Experience which has so far batted 100% in accuracy so far. In my opinion, each individual can only save her/him self based on a relationship with God. This is my opinion - that there most definitely is a God, in my humble opinion. I haven't ever read Martha Beck's book having just read about her. I believe her regarding the occult abuse by her father because of the same patterns being experienced in other "elite" families, but that doesn't mean that everything she is doing is good.
I am very, very glad to be out of the control of the church.



Hey aren't you that guy that has a web site mormon.citymax.com claiming to have inside knowledge of all these supposed mormon/political conspiracies?   You believe JS is a fallen prophet but that the original BoM and Book of Commandments are true before all the doctrinal changes and you promote them on your web site. 

I believe you claim that in your near death experience you were given a "mission" and are a central figure in God's plan to bringing the world back to his path. 


   


Posted: 25 June 2007 12:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
Hiram Page
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I have read Martha Beck's book, and I was a student of Hugh Nibley's (meaning I took a couple of classes with him, not that I was his longtime research assistant or anything). Best of all, I attended BYU for eight years. Ugh.
All I can say about Martha's book is that I enjoyed it greatly as a persuasive, albeit creative, portrait of what it was like to have a brain and use it on BYU campus in the 90s. You really couldn't fathom the stupidity that guided many of the affairs of BYU life. It was kind of surreal.
I greatly enjoyed Hugh Nibley as a professor. These days I am convinced that Nibley's greatest contribution to students at BYU and the LDS Church in general was to get people interested in learning of all kinds. Unfortunately, a cottage industry of fringey scholarship grew up around him that we know as FARMS. Inasmuch as Nibley inspired Mormon apologists to believe that the antiquity of the Book of Mormon, Book of Moses, and Book of Abraham could be vindicated by scholarly means, he did a great disservice to the LDS Church and its members.
I tend not to believe that Nibley abused his daughter, but I could be wrong. I do believe that she was probably abused by someone. I certainly do not believe that her father ritually abused her. After the Satanist scare of the 80s, which turned out to be mass hysteria and little else, I tend to disbelieve all such stories. I do not think Martha is consciously lying, and I like most of what she writes, but I am just unconvinced of Nibley dressed as an Egyptian priest abusing his daughter. 

   


Posted: 25 June 2007 12:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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livefromMO
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I've never met Martha Beck or her father so I don't know for myself. A friend of mine grew up with the Nibley children and he says he doesn't believe it. He said the family was odd in general but Martha Beck was "out there" and "attention seeking" as a youth. He's not a Nibley fan and no longer a member of the church so he doesn't have a horse in the race.
I won't say he's right but he's the closest person I know who knew the family well enough to draw a conclusion for himself. 

   


Posted: 25 June 2007 01:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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I read her book, and I've read a bunch of her articles in O Magazine.   If we apply that old Mormon phrase, by their works, ye shall know them, I'd say Martha Beck is a credible person.  However, I'm not prepared to say one way or another that what she's says happened really did or not.  I can't judge that.
I was greatly interested in what she said about Hugh Nibley's fact checker.  I have several of HN books and it is impossible to check at least 70% of his references.  He speaks in a way that makes people think he's saying something really important, but if you take the time to figure out what he was saying it's really almost nonsense.  I call it word salad.
Just my opinion...
Nochurchinheaven, I'd really love to see some references in your charges.  Tell us exactly where to look up what you're saying.
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Posted: 25 June 2007 08:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
MaryG
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If the stats are true that in general, one in four girls are abused, and one in six boys, then statistically by the odds, Martha Beck could have been abused.  I think the medical evidence is important. She did state that she had some evidence from a doctor. Again, this is not anything that anyone would make up.
My little brain was trying to do the stats. On average, one in five kids are abused. typically, an abuser "does" over 100 kids before "caught" (Anna Salter, "Predators" another must read). So, in 500 kids, there is an abuser at work. (probably not dealing with that specific pool of 500 kids). So, for 100 kids, an abuser for 20 of them.  If the average family size is 3, what are the odds that any one adult is an abuser? one in 33?  One in 10? Does it matter? Anna Salter's book does an excellent job of proving that you cannot detect a molester by what they say or do, you simply have to play the odds, and put the safety of your kids first.  Meeting a molester or taking classes from them or with them doesn't reveal what they do in secret. 
MaryG 

   


Posted: 25 June 2007 02:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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MaryG:If the stats are true that in general, one in four girls are abused, and one in six boys, then statistically by the odds, Martha Beck could have been abused.  I think the medical evidence is important. She did state that she had some evidence from a doctor. Again, this is not anything that anyone would make up.
My little brain was trying to do the stats. On average, one in five kids are abused. typically, an abuser "does" over 100 kids before "caught" (Anna Salter, "Predators" another must read). So, in 500 kids, there is an abuser at work. (probably not dealing with that specific pool of 500 kids). So, for 100 kids, an abuser for 20 of them.  If the average family size is 3, what are the odds that any one adult is an abuser? one in 33?  One in 10? Does it matter? Anna Salter's book does an excellent job of proving that you cannot detect a molester by what they say or do, you simply have to play the odds, and put the safety of your kids first.  Meeting a molester or taking classes from them or with them doesn't reveal what they do in secret. 
MaryG
MaryG your last statement especially, is right on the mark. And statistics are definitely pointing to huge numbers of children being sexually abused, which is something unfathomable. But who can look at a neighbor, friend, co-worker, and say to themselves, "I bet (s)he's one of those child abusers."? We can't because that's impossible to determine from a person's public persona. But when someone starts talking about their personal experience with abuse, more often than not we discount, discredit, and dismiss them as crazy (I can say I sure as hell would be at least partially crazy if I'd been abused as a child - I'm even a bit crazy without having gone through that!). Why do we do this? False accounts seem to happen, but should not be used as evidence abuse does not happen at all.
Here's some of what I got out of the book: Martha was generous with her parents, her siblings, her ward members, her therapist, and everyone else in her account. She was not sensationalistic or narcissistic. She made a gigantic attempt to reconcile with her dad. She had physical scars her dad refused to talk about. She never tried to say she wasn't messed up but acknowledged she had huge issues to deal with and sought help from therapists (how response-able is that?). She appeared to genuinely love her siblings and was torn apart by the fact she was no longer part of the family. She stated over and over she had to tell the truth about what she remembered happened to her because it was the only way she could live with herself. ...Seems totally plausible to me.
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Posted: 26 June 2007 09:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
MaryG
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I agree with those observations.  Also, it is important to remember that although abuse stats are high, they are not particular to any one group. Abuser and people without conscience occur across all ages, all IQ, all professions, all religions. However, certain situations may attract predators more than others, and that is where you find them more at work than in others.  For example, a pedophile would be more desirous of working at a summer camp for troubled at -risk kids than as a shrimper on  a boat.  A pedophile may want to be in groups where religious leaders do not have to report abuse to law enforcement. (if they say they are really, truly, sorry, and it won't happen again...)
MaryG 

   


Posted: 26 June 2007 10:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
snickersprincess
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Jannypanny:
MaryG:If the stats are true that in general, one in four girls are abused, and one in six boys, then statistically by the odds, Martha Beck could have been abused.  I think the medical evidence is important. She did state that she had some evidence from a doctor. Again, this is not anything that anyone would make up.
My little brain was trying to do the stats. On average, one in five kids are abused. typically, an abuser "does" over 100 kids before "caught" (Anna Salter, "Predators" another must read). So, in 500 kids, there is an abuser at work. (probably not dealing with that specific pool of 500 kids). So, for 100 kids, an abuser for 20 of them.  If the average family size is 3, what are the odds that any one adult is an abuser? one in 33?  One in 10? Does it matter? Anna Salter's book does an excellent job of proving that you cannot detect a molester by what they say or do, you simply have to play the odds, and put the safety of your kids first.  Meeting a molester or taking classes from them or with them doesn't reveal what they do in secret. 
MaryG
MaryG your last statement especially, is right on the mark. And statistics are definitely pointing to huge numbers of children being sexually abused, which is something unfathomable. But who can look at a neighbor, friend, co-worker, and say to themselves, "I bet (s)he's one of those child abusers."? We can't because that's impossible to determine from a person's public persona. But when someone starts talking about their personal experience with abuse, more often than not we discount, discredit, and dismiss them as crazy (I can say I sure as hell would be at least partially crazy if I'd been abused as a child - I'm even a bit crazy without having gone through that!). Why do we do this? False accounts seem to happen, but should not be used as evidence abuse does not happen at all.
Here's some of what I got out of the book: Martha was generous with her parents, her siblings, her ward members, her therapist, and everyone else in her account. She was not sensationalistic or narcissistic. She made a gigantic attempt to reconcile with her dad. She had physical scars her dad refused to talk about. She never tried to say she wasn't messed up but acknowledged she had huge issues to deal with and sought help from therapists (how response-able is that?). She appeared to genuinely love her siblings and was torn apart by the fact she was no longer part of the family. She stated over and over she had to tell the truth about what she remembered happened to her because it was the only way she could live with herself. ...Seems totally plausible to me.


I am not trying to say she was or was not abused.  BUt, I know most of us here have read "Demon Haunted World" and there is a whole section in there that talks about the "recovered momories" of child abuse.  And how MOST of them are false.  This reminds me of a part of Martha Becks's book when she suggests that her therapist tried to get confessions from her siblings that they, too had been abused.  Carl Sagan talks specifically about MArtha Beck's type of symptoms ( not in relation to her-- but, in general0 and they are VERY similar to fabricated recovered memories.
Plus-- her story gives me pause because I read her husband's review of the book and even HE said she made some stuff up. -- Sooo, I dont know.
Probably a pointless thread.  We are never really gonna know-- and I worry about offending someone who mabye WAS abused.  I dont want to be insensitive.
I really love that book "Leaving The Saints", though-- because it was the very first book I had the courage to buy and read that had an opposing view point of the church.  I read it in a day and dident get to bed till 3am.  She helped me begin my journey-- and after reading that book I was never afraid to go out and buy a book about church history from a regular book store and read it.  So-- for that, I am grateful.  I loved "Expecting Adam' as well.  WHo knows if it was all true-- but I hope that story was.  It was lovely.
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Posted: 26 June 2007 10:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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snickersprincess:
Jannypanny:
MaryG:If the stats are true that in general, one in four girls are abused, and one in six boys, then statistically by the odds, Martha Beck could have been abused.  I think the medical evidence is important. She did state that she had some evidence from a doctor. Again, this is not anything that anyone would make up.
My little brain was trying to do the stats. On average, one in five kids are abused. typically, an abuser "does" over 100 kids before "caught" (Anna Salter, "Predators" another must read). So, in 500 kids, there is an abuser at work. (probably not dealing with that specific pool of 500 kids). So, for 100 kids, an abuser for 20 of them.  If the average family size is 3, what are the odds that any one adult is an abuser? one in 33?  One in 10? Does it matter? Anna Salter's book does an excellent job of proving that you cannot detect a molester by what they say or do, you simply have to play the odds, and put the safety of your kids first.  Meeting a molester or taking classes from them or with them doesn't reveal what they do in secret. 
MaryG
MaryG your last statement especially, is right on the mark. And statistics are definitely pointing to huge numbers of children being sexually abused, which is something unfathomable. But who can look at a neighbor, friend, co-worker, and say to themselves, "I bet (s)he's one of those child abusers."? We can't because that's impossible to determine from a person's public persona. But when someone starts talking about their personal experience with abuse, more often than not we discount, discredit, and dismiss them as crazy (I can say I sure as hell would be at least partially crazy if I'd been abused as a child - I'm even a bit crazy without having gone through that!). Why do we do this? False accounts seem to happen, but should not be used as evidence abuse does not happen at all.
Here's some of what I got out of the book: Martha was generous with her parents, her siblings, her ward members, her therapist, and everyone else in her account. She was not sensationalistic or narcissistic. She made a gigantic attempt to reconcile with her dad. She had physical scars her dad refused to talk about. She never tried to say she wasn't messed up but acknowledged she had huge issues to deal with and sought help from therapists (how response-able is that?). She appeared to genuinely love her siblings and was torn apart by the fact she was no longer part of the family. She stated over and over she had to tell the truth about what she remembered happened to her because it was the only way she could live with herself. ...Seems totally plausible to me.


I am not trying to say she was or was not abused.  BUt, I know most of us here have read "Demon Haunted World" and there is a whole section in there that talks about the "recovered momories" of child abuse.  And how MOST of them are false.  This reminds me of a part of Martha Becks's book when she suggests that her therapist tried to get confessions from her siblings that they, too had been abused.  Carl Sagan talks specifically about MArtha Beck's type of symptoms ( not in relation to her-- but, in general0 and they are VERY similar to fabricated recovered memories.
Plus-- her story gives me pause because I read her husband's review of the book and even HE said she made some stuff up. -- Sooo, I dont know.
Probably a pointless thread.  We are never really gonna know-- and I worry about offending someone who mabye WAS abused.  I dont want to be insensitive.
I really love that book "Leaving The Saints", though-- because it was the very first book I had the courage to buy and read that had an opposing view point of the church.  I read it in a day and dident get to bed till 3am.  She helped me begin my journey-- and after reading that book I was never afraid to go out and buy a book about church history from a regular book store and read it.  So-- for that, I am grateful.  I loved "Expecting Adam' as well.  WHo knows if it was all true-- but I hope that story was.  It was lovely.
Snickersprincess, I don't know either. I'm just throwing stuff out there that's come up for me. It's interesting for me because I can be gullible and tend to give people the benefit of the doubt too much, so I like to really look at situations like this even though I can't ever know conclusively. But you know, I'm not sure how child sexual abuse statistics can be so high if most of the recovered memories reported are false. I thought Martha's book showed the absurdity of therapists planting ideas because it didn't work with Martha's siblings and obviously wasn't an issue with Martha herself. And Martha's ex-husband isn't a reliable source in my mind because up until she put the book into print he had backed her up completely. There could be reasons why he would decide to lie to discredit her.
My husband read Demon Haunted World and I probably should read it too, it sounds like a worthwhile read. I guess I just can't comprehend anyone making up child abuse and going through the hell that comes with it for no good reason. I know there is evidence to suggest the memories are not "real" sometimes, but I would think there are very few who actually make up accusations on purpose. Hopefully the technology in that area will make huge improvements in the coming years.
I haven't read Expecting Adam, maybe I'll have to find it next. Anyway, thanks for giving me food for thought.
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Posted: 26 June 2007 10:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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Jennifer
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nochurchinheaven, One question.....Are you on medication. Things like this are so crazy they are completely unbelievable. And then to say that through prayer you received the knowledge of all this stuff? That makes it even more unbelievable, I hope you know. We all want truth and that is why we aren't in the church now. In my opinion WE don't need someone that sniffs paint to tell us that the church isn't true because of some wacky belief. I did read the Martha Beck book. I enjoyed it. I don't know if she is right about the abuse. I know that I was abused as a child and although I never forgot it, I tried very hard to. I didn't deal with it until I was in my late 20's but have never told my family about it. It would hurt them more than it is worth.
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Posted: 27 June 2007 03:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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I read Martha Beck's book and enjoyed it.  She is a good writer and tells her story well.   I think that Martha really believes that the molestation by her father occurred and is trying to be honest in what she writes.  That said, it has been shown that memory is not always 100% accurate and may change with time and with other experiences in one's life influencing your perceived memory and so I think it may be possible for her to be wrong about the molestation incidents she remembers.
I do know that there is also a very large number of LDS families and even those of the very elite LDS families where child sexual abuse occurs.  There have been many threads here and on other forums where victims of these crimes have shared and discussed these issues and the pain it brought to them and so many others.  It is certainly not out of the realm of possibility that the abuse that Martha talks about did actually occur.   But, again, like so many other things that we would like to know the real truth of, that may be very hard to determine for sure. 
Martha's book is a very good read and I do recommend it.  Her story about her journey out of the church is quite interesting, as are so many others. 
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Posted: 27 June 2007 07:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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nochurchinheaven:
Good luck all in your individual search for truth - at least you are no longer in the "great and spacious building" being lead "carefully down to hell" (Nephi 2) by the ANTICHRIST; Hinckley.  It's better to take the path of truth rather than the muddy waters, but either is better than where the majority of ignorant sheep are who poke their fingers at those who wake up and leave the church! 
I feel all dirty and soiled after reading that.  I've conducted hundreds of hours of research and reading into the origins and doctrines of mormonism but have yet to discover such a vast conspiracy.  Is there any way for you to link at least one of your outlandish claims to a reliable source document?  Just one?  That isn't too much to ask.  I have heard rumors of the assasination of Harold B. Lee, and also sex parties at the house of a current member of the Q12 (which I swore to the source I wouldn't disclose who, sorry) but I can't document these things, so they just fall into the category of rumor and innuendo.  Is that what all of these claims are, nochurchinheaven, just rumor and innuendo?  I've visited your mormoncitymax site, and found much the same type of hyperbole.  Can you back up any of your assertions with sources?  That would be nice. 

   


            
 
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We’re not Christians, we’re Mormons  
Posted: 18 July 2007 01:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
barrett57
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I hate to ask this question since I asked it on RFM last year but...
When I attended the Mormon church back in the late 60s, we were taught to say "we're not Christians, we're Mormons".  We were told to say it with a smile because it was a good thing to say and we should be proud of it.
I'm currently dealing with Mormons on Beliefnet who deny this was ever taught.  Did anyone else learn this phrase?
I attended the ward just north of Alhambra High school in Phoenix, in case that matters. 

   


Posted: 18 July 2007 02:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
jahedgpeth
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Hello and welcome to the board. I think you are on the right track. In fact, there was a quote from Hinkley that sort of says the same thing:

Gordon B. Hinckley from the LDS General Conference in April 2002.  Hinckley said; “As a Church we have critics, many of them. They say we do not believe in the traditional Christ of Christianity. There is some substance to what they say. Our faith, our knowledge is not based on ancient tradition, the creeds which came of a finite understanding and out of the almost infinite discussions of men trying to arrive at a definition of the risen Christ. Our faith, our knowledge comes of the witness of a prophet in this dispensation…” – Ensign, May 2002, pg. 90.


There are more quotes out there and probably better than this one. Google is a good place to start.
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Posted: 18 July 2007 02:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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free thinker
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Our faith, our knowledge comes of the witness of a prophet in this dispensation…”


These guys are amazing.  I love the grandiosity of this statement. " This Dispensation".  Whatever. Such a bunch of hooey!   Ya I know some other things that took place in this despensation. Some that are ugly and done by none other than Smokin Joe Smith.    

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Posted: 18 July 2007 02:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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beenthere
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Found this:
http://anchor-baptist.org/articles/general/testimony_of_a_saved_mormon.html
'I also remember as a child specifically asking if we were Christians. I was told emphatically, "No, we are not Christians, we are Mormons!" '
via google.
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Posted: 18 July 2007 11:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Dutch
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I too remember being told that there was a definite distinction between the Christian world and that of Mormonism.  I was a child but I remember being confused by that idea.  Wasn't Mormonism based on the teachings of the Christ?  Even JS professed to be in contact with Christ, I guess using His editorial skills while JS was composing the Book of Bullshit.
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Posted: 18 July 2007 02:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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When I was growing up, we prided ourselves on being a peculiar people.  It never bothered us to have someone tell us we weren't "Christians" -- we used it as an opening to tell people why being a mormon was better.  I find the whole emphasis on appearing to be mainstream today to be pretty ironic.
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Posted: 18 July 2007 03:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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This issue was brought up in high school, before I was investigator. I have studied up on the church a bit, and due to the fact that Mormons do believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior, I classified them as Christians. I think this was important for my LDS friends at the time, it was important to them that I know they too were Christians. The illustrious BRM in Mormon Doctrine wrote something to the effect that Christianity was only a synonym for Mormonism.
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Posted: 18 July 2007 04:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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I don't remember this exact saying but things were different when I was a child.  We were Mormons and weren't burdened by having to say "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints."  We went to Sunday School in the morning and Sacrament Meeting in the afternoon.  I even remember going out to eat on Sundays.  That didn't change until the mid-70's.   I don't remember being concerned that the mainstream Christians didn't accept us.  This whole 'trying to blend' thing has happened in the past 20 years, in my opinion. 
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Posted: 18 July 2007 05:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
barrett57
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MishMagnet:I don't remember being concerned that the mainstream Christians didn't accept us.  This whole 'trying to blend' thing has happened in the past 20 years, in my opinion.

This is my impression, too, but younger Mormons are insistent that the modern church is the way the church has always been.  It's frustrating trying to have an online conversation with a TBM who insists your memories are faulty.  I may have been a kid but I distinctly remember that phrase and how it made me feel--a little sick to my stomach.  I refused to say it on principle, esp. since I was just a regular visitor and not a member. 

   


Posted: 18 July 2007 05:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Grape Nephi
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See wall? See jello? Try and nail it to the wall...
I remember being taught that Mormons were not Christian from inside the church. Learned it in Sunday school and seminary.
Its just like when a Mormon will tell you there were never any blood oaths in the temple. Excuse me? I was there! I went thru it!



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Posted: 18 July 2007 10:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Threads like this one make me wish I'd kept my old YM/Sunday School/Seminary manuals from when I was a teenager.  

   


Posted: 18 July 2007 11:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
barrett57
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Susan D.:Threads like this one make me wish I'd kept my old YM/Sunday School/Seminary manuals from when I was a teenager.

Do you remember if the manuals addressed my question directly? 

   


Posted: 18 July 2007 11:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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I don't remember, but it had lots of wacky doctrine in black and white that is denied by LDS Inc. now. 


   


Posted: 19 July 2007 05:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
Rich
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I was watching my son play ball here in Northern Utah. There was a Bishop in front of me speaking to one of his flock. She told him that she received some Christian Christmas cards in the mail and did not want to just throw them away. The Bishop asked her what she did with them. She told them that she gave them to one of her Christian Baptist friends.  I am assuming it had a Cross on it.

Peace
Rich



   


Posted: 19 July 2007 07:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
snickersprincess
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Okay-- since I just left the church-- I did watch the last conference.  LAst ditch attempt to make me regain my testimony.  ANd they had a talk by- Gary J. Coleman ( Gary Coleman-- ha, haaaa!!)-- called "Mom, Are We Christian?"
I do not know how to make links available to all of you.  But if you want to venture to LDS.org you will find it.  I jotted down some excerpts, though.
    " 14 Year old Cortnee, daugther of a mission pres. was asked at school if she was a Christian.  They scoffed at her when she said she was a Mormon, a common reference to the Church of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints.  Upon arriving home she asked her mother, "Are we Christian?"
And then it goes on to tell how they are actaully the most correct Christains out there-- blah, blah, blah.  BUt he ends on a pogient note.
"As a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, you are a Christain, and I am too.
   Yes, Cortnee, you are a Christian."
This talk's ending made me laugh.  I really, honestly think Gary Coleman ( ha, haaaa) modified the line "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Clause" from Miricle on 34th Street.  I am not joking.  I think he took it from there!
And this whole business of the church campaigning for Christianity makes me wonder... hummm "The lady doeth protest too much, methinks."
Thats what methinks, anyways.
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Posted: 19 July 2007 01:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
Rich
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Are Mormons Christians? Yes, Latter-day Saints are indeed Christians. In fact the official name of the Mormon church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.





This is my favorite answer. If anything proves Mormonism to be Christian this has to do it right?








 I was working in a home here in Utah. A rendition of Christ was on their wall. You can see it here. I told them about the Artist and mentioned the bright Cross behind the Christ. They said “That’s a cross?” I said oh ya it is a Cross.  The next day the picture was down. It happens to be my favorite rendition of Christ as He was Jewish and not a white American. Although he does span all color and   race.  



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Posted: 19 July 2007 02:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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snickersprincess:Okay-- since I just left the church-- I did watch the last conference.  LAst ditch attempt to make me regain my testimony.  ANd they had a talk by- Gary J. Coleman ( Gary Coleman-- ha, haaaa!!)-- called "Mom, Are We Christian?"
I do not know how to make links available to all of you.  But if you want to venture to LDS.org you will find it.  I jotted down some excerpts, though.
    " 14 Year old Cortnee, daugther of a mission pres. was asked at school if she was a Christian.  They scoffed at her when she said she was a Mormon, a common reference to the Church of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints.  Upon arriving home she asked her mother, "Are we Christian?"
And then it goes on to tell how they are actaully the most correct Christains out there-- blah, blah, blah.  BUt he ends on a pogient note.
"As a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, you are a Christain, and I am too.
   Yes, Cortnee, you are a Christian."
This talk's ending made me laugh.  I really, honestly think Gary Coleman ( ha, haaaa) modified the line "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Clause" from Miricle on 34th Street.  I am not joking.  I think he took it from there!
And this whole business of the church campaigning for Christianity makes me wonder... hummm "The lady doeth protest too much, methinks."
Thats what methinks, anyways.


s princess, i think the exact same thing about women being equal to the men...i remember reading old manuals that talked about how women weren't to lead the home and how the brethern were "shocked" to find a woman that would make the schedule and run the family....nowadays all the manuals talk over and over again "sisters don't despair, you are equal before the Lord"  you mean, we weren't before?  and we have whole lessons on how to make runnning the home easier!
protesting waay too much, i am SOOO glad i have gotten my daughter and son out of there..
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Posted: 19 July 2007 02:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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I always felt a superiority.  We were better than Christian.  We were Mormons!!! 

   


Posted: 19 July 2007 09:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
barrett57
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happybfree:I always felt a superiority.  We were better than Christian.  We were Mormons!!!

That's exactly the attitude we were taught.!  Still makes me gag. 

   


Posted: 19 July 2007 09:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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John Larsen
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According to a source of mine that will remain anonymous, Bruce R. McConkie wrote an unpublished book before his death. The book was titled Why Mormons are not Christians or something like that. The book was supposed to be a typical McConkie bombastic tirade against the Christian world and how Mormons were the only true church.
 
Supposedly, his family squelched it after his demise. I don’t know if it is true, but it would fit with much of McConkie’s later rhetoric.
 
John
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Posted: 20 July 2007 12:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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That's exactly the attitude we were taught.!  Still makes me gag.



Welcome!! 

Glad to have you gagging along with me! :) 

   


Posted: 20 July 2007 01:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
barrett57
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Welcome!! 

Glad to have you gagging along with me! :)

Thank you for the welcome.
When I was in high school, long after my stint in Mormonism, all the cool Mormon kids wore t-shirts with butterflies and flowers on them that read:  Be Happy, Be Mormon! Another gagfest. 
Those kids sure didn't look happy, except Kelly B. but she was happy before she converted.  She looked even happier at the high school reunion now that she's out. (There were 3 ex-Mormons at my table of 10.)  But I digress...


   


            
 
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Jehovah’s Witness and LDS Link?  
Posted: 16 July 2007 11:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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nxtOracle
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Anyone know of a historical link between the Jehovah's Witnesses and the LDS? The terminology and structure are very similar, and I was wondering if anyone knows of a common denominator. I'm writing a paper comparing the two organizations and would appreciate anyone's knowledge on the matter.
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Posted: 17 July 2007 12:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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I'm not aware of any connection, but I'd be curious to hear what you come up with.  I'd always put the similarities down to being founded within 30 years (?) or so in the U.S.
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Posted: 17 July 2007 01:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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peter_mary
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Likewise, of all the crap I've read on church history, I've never read anything linking Mormonism to the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Until Dogzilla got herself a boyfriend....

...news at 11:00.
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Posted: 17 July 2007 04:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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nxtoracle:Anyone know of a historical link between the Jehovah's Witnesses and the LDS? The terminology and structure are very similar, and I was wondering if anyone knows of a common denominator. I'm writing a paper comparing the two organizations and would appreciate anyone's knowledge on the matter.


I would recommend the book "Kingdom of the Cults" by Walter Martin. They are both in there and talked about in pretty good detail. Buy online, it will save you a bundle.
After having studied cults and cult members I started to branch out to other cults besides just the mormons. The Jehovah's Witnesses are not nearly as threatening in my opinion since they don't believe in holding a public office. They believe that all governments are owned by Satan.
They are probably more batty than mormons in the end - if you can believe it.
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Posted: 17 July 2007 05:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Lilith
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Oorloghondje:
nxtoracle:Anyone know of a historical link between the Jehovah's Witnesses and the LDS? The terminology and structure are very similar, and I was wondering if anyone knows of a common denominator. I'm writing a paper comparing the two organizations and would appreciate anyone's knowledge on the matter.


I would recommend the book "Kingdom of the Cults" by Walter Martin. They are both in there and talked about in pretty good detail. Buy online, it will save you a bundle.
After having studied cults and cult members I started to branch out to other cults besides just the mormons. The Jehovah's Witnesses are not nearly as threatening in my opinion since they don't believe in holding a public office. They believe that all governments are owned by Satan.
They are probably more batty than mormons in the end - if you can believe it.


I believe it. How anyone can go through life and not enjoy a simplistic holiday for FUN is beyond me!!
They like the mormons have had beliefs change over time. They used to celebrate holidays and then stopped.
It's just another man made religion like the mormon religion as well.
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Posted: 17 July 2007 12:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Dogzilla Joy
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They are probably more batty than mormons in the end - if you can believe it.

I think they are totally more batty than mormons at the end of the day. But, boy oh boy, do these people know their bible. They make mormons look like hacks when it comes to studying. Now, it is their specially edited by the Watchtower Society bible and those cartoonish tracts explain to them how to interpret what they read. If you disagree with TWS interpretation, then you've simply studied it "wrong." Not so different there, methinks. 

My birthday is this Friday. My best friend's birthday was nearly a month ago, so a week or so ago, we decided to celebrate together and just share a single birthday celebration. At our age, this is perfectly sufficient. (We went to dinner and a movie -- Harry Potter -- and  traded prizes in between.) My BF was willing to join us for dinner and then left before we went to the movie, but refused to stick around while my friend and I opened gifts from each other. My friends were aghast. "Whaddya mean, he's allergic to birthdays? Are you going to marry this guy and then never get a birthday gift from him? He won't even say 'Happy Birthday'? What the ####?"  They think he's an idiot -- when it comes to this. "But he's so smart! How can he swallow this crap?" He thinks it would be a sin to honor a person instead of honoring gawd. My other friend said, "At least, if he was a mormon, you'd know how to combat that." Damn straight, I would.

I plan to go out of town on Friday -- flying to the parental homestead for a visit Up North. So I dunno if he plans to talk to me via cellphone while I'm at the airport or anything, but I will bet dollars to doughnuts that I won't hear 'Happy Birthday' from him. Now... I'm not all about how I have to be princess for a day or anything on my birthday, but I do think it would be polite to acknowledge it. So I expect to feel pretty disgusted with JWs by the end of this week. (My family sucks too, so this is shaping up to be a really crappy b-day. I can't wait. /sarcasm)

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Posted: 17 July 2007 01:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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dogzilla:
My BF was willing to join us for dinner and then left before we went to the movie, but refused to stick around while my friend and I opened gifts from each other. My friends were aghast. "Whaddya mean, he's allergic to birthdays? Are you going to marry this guy and then never get a birthday gift from him? He won't even say 'Happy Birthday'? What the ####?"  They think he's an idiot -- when it comes to this. "But he's so smart! How can he swallow this crap?" He thinks it would be a sin to honor a person instead of honoring gawd. My other friend said, "At least, if he was a mormon, you'd know how to combat that." Damn straight, I would.


I L-o-o-o-ve holidays! It is part of the fun of enjoying and savoring life. Hey, I have to admit it, I especially like my birthday. The family joke is "Mom doesn't have a birth-day...she has a birth-month!" Gotta relish the time I have left on this earth--holidays are one dimension of making whoopee while I can.
I don't think whatever god is out there cares that along with him/her/it, we honor others. He couldn't be that narcissistic--he is leaving that up to me!

Happy this-coming-Friday birthday, Dogzilla. Celebrate yourself!
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Posted: 17 July 2007 01:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Thanks, Hypatia!

After I fly to Ohio, I get to spend the next five days with my Wiccan/pagan, heavily tatted sister in a race to see who can finish reading the last Harry Potter book first. (And we're going to an Indy car race, which is sort of a family tradition.) I had to have Amazon deliver to her house, but I think it was damn nice of J.K. Rowling to release her last book in the series in time for my birthday. Clearly, at least she loves me.


EDITED: Oh, and I dunno how JWs square up "No other gods before me" with "Honor mom and dad." Don't celebrate holidays because that would be honoring a person before honoring gawd... but don't forget that other commandment to honor your parents.  Erm... wha?  I'm tellin' y'all... JWs are completely kooky.


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Posted: 17 July 2007 02:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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We love God by loving others...there...problem solved!
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Posted: 17 July 2007 03:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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If you are looking for links between the JWs and the LDS, you have to look beyond the founders or early history of individual religions and focus on the big picture of life in the US in the first half of the 19th century. For that, I highly recommend "Freedom's Ferment" by Alice Felt Tyler.
There you will learn about the unique set of circumstances in this country that made possible the advent or proliferation of a number of what some might refer to as "oddball" religious, philosophical, and utopian movements: Mormonism, Jehovah's Witness, Shakers, Transcendentalism, Evangelicalism, Spiritualism, New Harmony Society, and the Oneida Community to name a few.
The link here is the era, and the fecund ground in this country that allowed dozens of such movements to take hold.
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Posted: 17 July 2007 03:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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I'm fairly certain the focus should be in the restorationist movement. I think it's just eerie how the basic terminology is the same. They call sermons "talks" The call what LDS call the "stand" the "platform" Their meeting structure is similar Their leadership structure is similar There are a few others not coming to mind at the moment. There may not be a great link, and they inherited these things from the movement as a whole, but I'd love to find some specific examples of a connection. The closest thing I can find right now is a theory that the Masons are behind both organizations. That information is questionable though.
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Posted: 17 July 2007 04:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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I believe you will find that similarities come because they are both American movements that began under the same social zeitgeist and grew up in the same environment. Mormonism has borrowed as much from American corporate culture as it has from Protestantism, I suspect that Jehovah Witnesses have done much the same.
 
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Posted: 17 July 2007 04:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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What I have read is the JW's were a break off from the Seventh Day Adventist Church.  One of the high up guys was a publisher of the Review and Herald, an adventist publication, he broke off and started another sect that eventually turned into the JW's and the Watch Tower magazine.  I know that SDA's don't have any secretive background tying them to the Mason's.  I agree with some of the other thoughts that it is all tyed to American culture in the 1840's  They had the "Great Dissapointment" were everyone was looking for Christ to return.  He didn't and a whole bunch of new religions were born.


   


Posted: 17 July 2007 04:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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joel,
would you be open to sharing your completed paper with people here?  I remember you had a good understanding of JW, as you converted one or more as a Missionary, so you learned about their beliefs in depth.  I think your paper would be very interesting to read, knowing you've been a Mormon, a Missionary and a evangelical Christian and I don't know how you believe now... but insert present beliefs here____________.  So, what a very interesting perspective you have in regard to religion.  I'd personally like to read what you write and if you're open to sharing upon completion, I'd love an emailed copy.  I admire your intelligence and how you've shared perspectives here, so I'm interested in your paper.


   


Posted: 17 July 2007 04:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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nxtoracle:I'm fairly certain the focus should be in the restorationist movement. I think it's just eerie how the basic terminology is the same. They call sermons "talks" The call what LDS call the "stand" the "platform" Their meeting structure is similar Their leadership structure is similar There are a few others not coming to mind at the moment.
.......

The reason for the similarities is that one of them is the one and only true church of God on the earth, and the other is a corrupted, apostate version of it. 
But which is which?  

OK, seriously now, Nxtoracle, this sounds like a very interesting project, and I hope you'll keep us updated on your findings.  Best of luck to you. 
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Posted: 17 July 2007 05:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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Dogzilla Joy
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Joel, I would be interested in reading your paper as well. Also: free services offer alert!

Should you feel the need to have an editor look it over, I'd be happy to.
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Posted: 17 July 2007 09:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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Yes, I'm planning on making the paper available in one way or another. I'm really mulling over the concepts right now in the comparison. My writing is certainly hit or miss, so I can't guarantee anything of great quality.
As a missionary, I read the first 100 pages or so of a book lent to me by a JW I tracted into. I basically told he I'd read her book if she read some of the Book of Mormon and tried to answer the questions in a tract I has composed (based on Weston's 17 Evidences). She agreed to the exchange. Their history is fairly interesting, and by their own admittance (at least in print) rocky. I basically concluded that the JW organization was Satan's counterfeit for the true Restored Gospel. Later, I would aid in teaching of a JW woman who was baptized LDS. She was somewhat less active though.
It's also been really interesting to interview JWs for this paper. I recognize the non-verbal cues that I was touching on nerves and the answers that were sometimes given were programmed. I don't blame them, I know EXACTLY how they feel having been in the same position myself.
I'm just hoping I do this paper justice. It's a fascinating topic. Most people don't understand anything about either group. JW or LDS, so I think it's paper worthy of writing.
Thanks for the offer to edit Dogzilla. I won't likely be able to get it to you before I turn it in, but I might have you go through it before I release it publicly. I've got a bad habit of not taking my time to write. It's due Sunday night, so I'll likely write it Sunday afternoon.

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Posted: 17 July 2007 09:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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Oh, and not to forget, thank you to everyone who's offered advice/commentary!
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Posted: 17 July 2007 11:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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Born Free
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I am not aware of a direct link, but many of the US religions of the 18th and 19th centuries commenced in the same socio-economic soil.
Two books come to mind that do a lot to make that context visible:
The Divine Supermarket - shopping for God in America by Malise Ruthven
and
The Battle for God by Karen Armstrong
Interestingly, both authors are English, which brings a somewhat different observing eye to a US dynamic. I expect both will offer your a whole different take on the factors that have shaped US religions.
Daryl

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Posted: 19 July 2007 03:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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Shimon
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nxtoracle:Anyone know of a historical link between the Jehovah's Witnesses and the LDS? The terminology and structure are very similar, and I was wondering if anyone knows of a common denominator. I'm writing a paper comparing the two organizations and would appreciate anyone's knowledge on the matter.


I have wondered about this as well. I recall hearing from a friend a number of years ago that the founder of the JW movement had spent some time in SLC and had visited with Brigham Young. If this is true it could explain some of the similarities. On the other hand, this may have been the same friend that told me that Alice Cooper was a bishop's son who had been excommunicated for wearing tie-dyed garments on stage during a concert.
Good luck... it sounds like a very interesting paper.
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Posted: 19 July 2007 04:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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Shimon:
nxtoracle:Anyone know of a historical link between the Jehovah's Witnesses and the LDS? The terminology and structure are very similar, and I was wondering if anyone knows of a common denominator. I'm writing a paper comparing the two organizations and would appreciate anyone's knowledge on the matter.


I have wondered about this as well. I recall hearing from a friend a number of years ago that the founder of the JW movement had spent some time in SLC and had visited with Brigham Young. If this is true it could explain some of the similarities. On the other hand, this may have been the same friend that told me that Alice Cooper was a bishop's son who had been excommunicated for wearing tie-dyed garments on stage during a concert.
Good luck... it sounds like a very interesting paper.
Hey Shimon - I don't know about the tie-dyed garments, but there seems to be some basis in fact for part of that story, even if the details are mixed up.
See this thread.....
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/1685/
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Posted: 19 July 2007 01:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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nxtoracle:
Thanks for the offer to edit Dogzilla. I won't likely be able to get it to you before I turn it in, but I might have you go through it before I release it publicly. I've got a bad habit of not taking my time to write. It's due Sunday night, so I'll likely write it Sunday afternoon.



I'm leaving town tomorrow through Wednesday and probably won't have access to my e-mail. So it's just as well -- I wouldn't be able to get to it before it's due on Sunday anyway. But I would be happy to take a look before you release it publicly. 
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Posted: 19 July 2007 02:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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dogzilla:
I'm leaving town tomorrow through Wednesday and probably won't have access to my e-mail. So it's just as well -- I wouldn't be able to get to it before it's due on Sunday anyway. But I would be happy to take a look before you release it publicly.  


It will most assuredly come back to Nxtoracle a better piece than it left.
Of course, he also runs the risk of the dog(zilla) eating his homework!
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Posted: 19 July 2007 03:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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Dogzilla Joy
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Crime Dog:
It will most assuredly come back to Nxtoracle a better piece than it left.
Of course, he also runs the risk of the dog(zilla) eating his homework!

Will work for Milk Bones.
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Posted: 19 July 2007 04:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
magi
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There was a big influx of religions during that time. I suppose each of them focused on a sentence in the Bible and built a religion around it.
Here are some thoughts that have crossed my mind:
Oh how you want to be rich. I mean you really want to be rich. Hitherto, you have not been very successful. What sells? You aren't an inventor. You aren't even a great writer. Aha! Sell tickets to heaven. Get a large following. You feel the power and you get the money.
A guy keeps getting these feelings and dreams and lusts after his neighbor's wife. His religion makes his conscience hurt, so he starts a religion that allows his lusts to be sated.
Control is a big factor in most religions. Control their every aspect of life. Control their thoughts, their dress, what they eat, and give them fears to play on.
Reading old history of the JWs, I found they preached the world was going to end in 1914 and for everyone to prepare for the apocalypse. This was control by fear.
I used to let the JW's in and studied with them. I was giving blood to save my father's life and they told me the Bible was against that. The person receiving the blood was ingesting it. To me, ingesting sounded like something that would go into my mouth and into my digestive system. I asked the JW if she liked steak and she said she certainly enjoyed a good steak. I asked her if she boiled it white before she fried and ate it as, if she did not, she was ingesting blood. She told me I was silly. 

   


Posted: 19 July 2007 08:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
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magi:
.......
 What sells? You aren't an inventor. You aren't even a great writer. Aha! Sell tickets to heaven. Get a large following. You feel the power and you get the money.
.......

Sell tickets to heaven - that about sums it up, doesn't it.  Well said, Magi.
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Posted: 19 July 2007 10:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]   

   
 
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pnut
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Shimon:this may have been the same friend that told me that Alice Cooper was a bishop's son who had been excommunicated for wearing tie-dyed garments on stage during a concert.

I just heard Alice Cooper being interviewed on Fresh Air with Terri Gross just about a couple of months ago on NPR.  He has a new biography out called, "Alice Cooper, Golf Monster".  He says in the interview that he is the son and grandson of Christian "pastors".  when you pull up his bio on wikipedia you find that his family is church of jesus christ bickerton, (which is headquarted in pennsylvania and looks to be like the RLDS but not the same as the utah church.  His father's name was Ether Moroni ... not much more Mormon than that name really.
here's the fresh air interview:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10231271


   


Posted: 20 July 2007 03:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]   

   
 
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magi:There was a big influx of religions during that time. I suppose each of them focused on a sentence in the Bible and built a religion around it.


So why didn't any of those idiots pick Ecclesiastes 8:15? It would have been more fun.
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Posted: 20 July 2007 03:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]   

   
 
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Crime Dog:
magi:There was a big influx of religions during that time. I suppose each of them focused on a sentence in the Bible and built a religion around it.


So why didn't any of those idiots pick Ecclesiastes 8:15? It would have been more fun.

They were leaving it for you.  All hail the Church of Crime Dog!  Brats and beer around!
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Posted: 20 July 2007 06:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]   

   
 
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edited per I was incorrect in my references.
pardon me....just skipping through...


   


Posted: 20 July 2007 06:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]   

   
 
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NRyker:
edited per I was incorrect in my references.
pardon me....just skipping through...




Welcome to the board, anyway!
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Posted: 23 July 2007 02:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]   

   
 
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Well...I finished and submitted my paper. I know I said I'd make is available, but frankly I didn't like how it turned out. The scope of the actual assignment limited me a bit. Sometime soon I'll try to sit down and free-write and write what I want to about both faiths and their similarities. Thanks for the comments and suggestions!
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Jehovah’s Witness and LDS Link?  
Posted: 16 July 2007 11:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Anyone know of a historical link between the Jehovah's Witnesses and the LDS? The terminology and structure are very similar, and I was wondering if anyone knows of a common denominator. I'm writing a paper comparing the two organizations and would appreciate anyone's knowledge on the matter.
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Posted: 17 July 2007 12:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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I'm not aware of any connection, but I'd be curious to hear what you come up with.  I'd always put the similarities down to being founded within 30 years (?) or so in the U.S.
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Posted: 17 July 2007 01:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Likewise, of all the crap I've read on church history, I've never read anything linking Mormonism to the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Until Dogzilla got herself a boyfriend....

...news at 11:00.
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Posted: 17 July 2007 04:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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nxtoracle:Anyone know of a historical link between the Jehovah's Witnesses and the LDS? The terminology and structure are very similar, and I was wondering if anyone knows of a common denominator. I'm writing a paper comparing the two organizations and would appreciate anyone's knowledge on the matter.


I would recommend the book "Kingdom of the Cults" by Walter Martin. They are both in there and talked about in pretty good detail. Buy online, it will save you a bundle.
After having studied cults and cult members I started to branch out to other cults besides just the mormons. The Jehovah's Witnesses are not nearly as threatening in my opinion since they don't believe in holding a public office. They believe that all governments are owned by Satan.
They are probably more batty than mormons in the end - if you can believe it.
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Posted: 17 July 2007 05:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Oorloghondje:
nxtoracle:Anyone know of a historical link between the Jehovah's Witnesses and the LDS? The terminology and structure are very similar, and I was wondering if anyone knows of a common denominator. I'm writing a paper comparing the two organizations and would appreciate anyone's knowledge on the matter.


I would recommend the book "Kingdom of the Cults" by Walter Martin. They are both in there and talked about in pretty good detail. Buy online, it will save you a bundle.
After having studied cults and cult members I started to branch out to other cults besides just the mormons. The Jehovah's Witnesses are not nearly as threatening in my opinion since they don't believe in holding a public office. They believe that all governments are owned by Satan.
They are probably more batty than mormons in the end - if you can believe it.


I believe it. How anyone can go through life and not enjoy a simplistic holiday for FUN is beyond me!!
They like the mormons have had beliefs change over time. They used to celebrate holidays and then stopped.
It's just another man made religion like the mormon religion as well.
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Posted: 17 July 2007 12:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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They are probably more batty than mormons in the end - if you can believe it.

I think they are totally more batty than mormons at the end of the day. But, boy oh boy, do these people know their bible. They make mormons look like hacks when it comes to studying. Now, it is their specially edited by the Watchtower Society bible and those cartoonish tracts explain to them how to interpret what they read. If you disagree with TWS interpretation, then you've simply studied it "wrong." Not so different there, methinks. 

My birthday is this Friday. My best friend's birthday was nearly a month ago, so a week or so ago, we decided to celebrate together and just share a single birthday celebration. At our age, this is perfectly sufficient. (We went to dinner and a movie -- Harry Potter -- and  traded prizes in between.) My BF was willing to join us for dinner and then left before we went to the movie, but refused to stick around while my friend and I opened gifts from each other. My friends were aghast. "Whaddya mean, he's allergic to birthdays? Are you going to marry this guy and then never get a birthday gift from him? He won't even say 'Happy Birthday'? What the ####?"  They think he's an idiot -- when it comes to this. "But he's so smart! How can he swallow this crap?" He thinks it would be a sin to honor a person instead of honoring gawd. My other friend said, "At least, if he was a mormon, you'd know how to combat that." Damn straight, I would.

I plan to go out of town on Friday -- flying to the parental homestead for a visit Up North. So I dunno if he plans to talk to me via cellphone while I'm at the airport or anything, but I will bet dollars to doughnuts that I won't hear 'Happy Birthday' from him. Now... I'm not all about how I have to be princess for a day or anything on my birthday, but I do think it would be polite to acknowledge it. So I expect to feel pretty disgusted with JWs by the end of this week. (My family sucks too, so this is shaping up to be a really crappy b-day. I can't wait. /sarcasm)

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Posted: 17 July 2007 01:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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dogzilla:
My BF was willing to join us for dinner and then left before we went to the movie, but refused to stick around while my friend and I opened gifts from each other. My friends were aghast. "Whaddya mean, he's allergic to birthdays? Are you going to marry this guy and then never get a birthday gift from him? He won't even say 'Happy Birthday'? What the ####?"  They think he's an idiot -- when it comes to this. "But he's so smart! How can he swallow this crap?" He thinks it would be a sin to honor a person instead of honoring gawd. My other friend said, "At least, if he was a mormon, you'd know how to combat that." Damn straight, I would.


I L-o-o-o-ve holidays! It is part of the fun of enjoying and savoring life. Hey, I have to admit it, I especially like my birthday. The family joke is "Mom doesn't have a birth-day...she has a birth-month!" Gotta relish the time I have left on this earth--holidays are one dimension of making whoopee while I can.
I don't think whatever god is out there cares that along with him/her/it, we honor others. He couldn't be that narcissistic--he is leaving that up to me!

Happy this-coming-Friday birthday, Dogzilla. Celebrate yourself!
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Posted: 17 July 2007 01:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Thanks, Hypatia!

After I fly to Ohio, I get to spend the next five days with my Wiccan/pagan, heavily tatted sister in a race to see who can finish reading the last Harry Potter book first. (And we're going to an Indy car race, which is sort of a family tradition.) I had to have Amazon deliver to her house, but I think it was damn nice of J.K. Rowling to release her last book in the series in time for my birthday. Clearly, at least she loves me.


EDITED: Oh, and I dunno how JWs square up "No other gods before me" with "Honor mom and dad." Don't celebrate holidays because that would be honoring a person before honoring gawd... but don't forget that other commandment to honor your parents.  Erm... wha?  I'm tellin' y'all... JWs are completely kooky.


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Posted: 17 July 2007 02:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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We love God by loving others...there...problem solved!
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Posted: 17 July 2007 03:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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If you are looking for links between the JWs and the LDS, you have to look beyond the founders or early history of individual religions and focus on the big picture of life in the US in the first half of the 19th century. For that, I highly recommend "Freedom's Ferment" by Alice Felt Tyler.
There you will learn about the unique set of circumstances in this country that made possible the advent or proliferation of a number of what some might refer to as "oddball" religious, philosophical, and utopian movements: Mormonism, Jehovah's Witness, Shakers, Transcendentalism, Evangelicalism, Spiritualism, New Harmony Society, and the Oneida Community to name a few.
The link here is the era, and the fecund ground in this country that allowed dozens of such movements to take hold.
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Posted: 17 July 2007 03:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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I'm fairly certain the focus should be in the restorationist movement. I think it's just eerie how the basic terminology is the same. They call sermons "talks" The call what LDS call the "stand" the "platform" Their meeting structure is similar Their leadership structure is similar There are a few others not coming to mind at the moment. There may not be a great link, and they inherited these things from the movement as a whole, but I'd love to find some specific examples of a connection. The closest thing I can find right now is a theory that the Masons are behind both organizations. That information is questionable though.
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Posted: 17 July 2007 04:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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I believe you will find that similarities come because they are both American movements that began under the same social zeitgeist and grew up in the same environment. Mormonism has borrowed as much from American corporate culture as it has from Protestantism, I suspect that Jehovah Witnesses have done much the same.
 
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Posted: 17 July 2007 04:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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What I have read is the JW's were a break off from the Seventh Day Adventist Church.  One of the high up guys was a publisher of the Review and Herald, an adventist publication, he broke off and started another sect that eventually turned into the JW's and the Watch Tower magazine.  I know that SDA's don't have any secretive background tying them to the Mason's.  I agree with some of the other thoughts that it is all tyed to American culture in the 1840's  They had the "Great Dissapointment" were everyone was looking for Christ to return.  He didn't and a whole bunch of new religions were born.


   


Posted: 17 July 2007 04:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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joel,
would you be open to sharing your completed paper with people here?  I remember you had a good understanding of JW, as you converted one or more as a Missionary, so you learned about their beliefs in depth.  I think your paper would be very interesting to read, knowing you've been a Mormon, a Missionary and a evangelical Christian and I don't know how you believe now... but insert present beliefs here____________.  So, what a very interesting perspective you have in regard to religion.  I'd personally like to read what you write and if you're open to sharing upon completion, I'd love an emailed copy.  I admire your intelligence and how you've shared perspectives here, so I'm interested in your paper.


   


Posted: 17 July 2007 04:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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nxtoracle:I'm fairly certain the focus should be in the restorationist movement. I think it's just eerie how the basic terminology is the same. They call sermons "talks" The call what LDS call the "stand" the "platform" Their meeting structure is similar Their leadership structure is similar There are a few others not coming to mind at the moment.
.......

The reason for the similarities is that one of them is the one and only true church of God on the earth, and the other is a corrupted, apostate version of it. 
But which is which?  

OK, seriously now, Nxtoracle, this sounds like a very interesting project, and I hope you'll keep us updated on your findings.  Best of luck to you. 
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Posted: 17 July 2007 05:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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Joel, I would be interested in reading your paper as well. Also: free services offer alert!

Should you feel the need to have an editor look it over, I'd be happy to.
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Posted: 17 July 2007 09:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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Yes, I'm planning on making the paper available in one way or another. I'm really mulling over the concepts right now in the comparison. My writing is certainly hit or miss, so I can't guarantee anything of great quality.
As a missionary, I read the first 100 pages or so of a book lent to me by a JW I tracted into. I basically told he I'd read her book if she read some of the Book of Mormon and tried to answer the questions in a tract I has composed (based on Weston's 17 Evidences). She agreed to the exchange. Their history is fairly interesting, and by their own admittance (at least in print) rocky. I basically concluded that the JW organization was Satan's counterfeit for the true Restored Gospel. Later, I would aid in teaching of a JW woman who was baptized LDS. She was somewhat less active though.
It's also been really interesting to interview JWs for this paper. I recognize the non-verbal cues that I was touching on nerves and the answers that were sometimes given were programmed. I don't blame them, I know EXACTLY how they feel having been in the same position myself.
I'm just hoping I do this paper justice. It's a fascinating topic. Most people don't understand anything about either group. JW or LDS, so I think it's paper worthy of writing.
Thanks for the offer to edit Dogzilla. I won't likely be able to get it to you before I turn it in, but I might have you go through it before I release it publicly. I've got a bad habit of not taking my time to write. It's due Sunday night, so I'll likely write it Sunday afternoon.

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Posted: 17 July 2007 09:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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Oh, and not to forget, thank you to everyone who's offered advice/commentary!
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Posted: 17 July 2007 11:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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I am not aware of a direct link, but many of the US religions of the 18th and 19th centuries commenced in the same socio-economic soil.
Two books come to mind that do a lot to make that context visible:
The Divine Supermarket - shopping for God in America by Malise Ruthven
and
The Battle for God by Karen Armstrong
Interestingly, both authors are English, which brings a somewhat different observing eye to a US dynamic. I expect both will offer your a whole different take on the factors that have shaped US religions.
Daryl

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Posted: 19 July 2007 03:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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nxtoracle:Anyone know of a historical link between the Jehovah's Witnesses and the LDS? The terminology and structure are very similar, and I was wondering if anyone knows of a common denominator. I'm writing a paper comparing the two organizations and would appreciate anyone's knowledge on the matter.


I have wondered about this as well. I recall hearing from a friend a number of years ago that the founder of the JW movement had spent some time in SLC and had visited with Brigham Young. If this is true it could explain some of the similarities. On the other hand, this may have been the same friend that told me that Alice Cooper was a bishop's son who had been excommunicated for wearing tie-dyed garments on stage during a concert.
Good luck... it sounds like a very interesting paper.
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Posted: 19 July 2007 04:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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Shimon:
nxtoracle:Anyone know of a historical link between the Jehovah's Witnesses and the LDS? The terminology and structure are very similar, and I was wondering if anyone knows of a common denominator. I'm writing a paper comparing the two organizations and would appreciate anyone's knowledge on the matter.


I have wondered about this as well. I recall hearing from a friend a number of years ago that the founder of the JW movement had spent some time in SLC and had visited with Brigham Young. If this is true it could explain some of the similarities. On the other hand, this may have been the same friend that told me that Alice Cooper was a bishop's son who had been excommunicated for wearing tie-dyed garments on stage during a concert.
Good luck... it sounds like a very interesting paper.
Hey Shimon - I don't know about the tie-dyed garments, but there seems to be some basis in fact for part of that story, even if the details are mixed up.
See this thread.....
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/1685/
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Posted: 19 July 2007 01:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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nxtoracle:
Thanks for the offer to edit Dogzilla. I won't likely be able to get it to you before I turn it in, but I might have you go through it before I release it publicly. I've got a bad habit of not taking my time to write. It's due Sunday night, so I'll likely write it Sunday afternoon.



I'm leaving town tomorrow through Wednesday and probably won't have access to my e-mail. So it's just as well -- I wouldn't be able to get to it before it's due on Sunday anyway. But I would be happy to take a look before you release it publicly. 
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Posted: 19 July 2007 02:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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dogzilla:
I'm leaving town tomorrow through Wednesday and probably won't have access to my e-mail. So it's just as well -- I wouldn't be able to get to it before it's due on Sunday anyway. But I would be happy to take a look before you release it publicly.  


It will most assuredly come back to Nxtoracle a better piece than it left.
Of course, he also runs the risk of the dog(zilla) eating his homework!
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Posted: 19 July 2007 03:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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Crime Dog:
It will most assuredly come back to Nxtoracle a better piece than it left.
Of course, he also runs the risk of the dog(zilla) eating his homework!

Will work for Milk Bones.
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Posted: 19 July 2007 04:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
magi
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There was a big influx of religions during that time. I suppose each of them focused on a sentence in the Bible and built a religion around it.
Here are some thoughts that have crossed my mind:
Oh how you want to be rich. I mean you really want to be rich. Hitherto, you have not been very successful. What sells? You aren't an inventor. You aren't even a great writer. Aha! Sell tickets to heaven. Get a large following. You feel the power and you get the money.
A guy keeps getting these feelings and dreams and lusts after his neighbor's wife. His religion makes his conscience hurt, so he starts a religion that allows his lusts to be sated.
Control is a big factor in most religions. Control their every aspect of life. Control their thoughts, their dress, what they eat, and give them fears to play on.
Reading old history of the JWs, I found they preached the world was going to end in 1914 and for everyone to prepare for the apocalypse. This was control by fear.
I used to let the JW's in and studied with them. I was giving blood to save my father's life and they told me the Bible was against that. The person receiving the blood was ingesting it. To me, ingesting sounded like something that would go into my mouth and into my digestive system. I asked the JW if she liked steak and she said she certainly enjoyed a good steak. I asked her if she boiled it white before she fried and ate it as, if she did not, she was ingesting blood. She told me I was silly. 

   


Posted: 19 July 2007 08:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
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dave (e_nomo)
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magi:
.......
 What sells? You aren't an inventor. You aren't even a great writer. Aha! Sell tickets to heaven. Get a large following. You feel the power and you get the money.
.......

Sell tickets to heaven - that about sums it up, doesn't it.  Well said, Magi.
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Posted: 19 July 2007 10:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]   

   
 
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pnut
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Shimon:this may have been the same friend that told me that Alice Cooper was a bishop's son who had been excommunicated for wearing tie-dyed garments on stage during a concert.

I just heard Alice Cooper being interviewed on Fresh Air with Terri Gross just about a couple of months ago on NPR.  He has a new biography out called, "Alice Cooper, Golf Monster".  He says in the interview that he is the son and grandson of Christian "pastors".  when you pull up his bio on wikipedia you find that his family is church of jesus christ bickerton, (which is headquarted in pennsylvania and looks to be like the RLDS but not the same as the utah church.  His father's name was Ether Moroni ... not much more Mormon than that name really.
here's the fresh air interview:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10231271


   


Posted: 20 July 2007 03:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]   

   
 
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Crime Dog
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magi:There was a big influx of religions during that time. I suppose each of them focused on a sentence in the Bible and built a religion around it.


So why didn't any of those idiots pick Ecclesiastes 8:15? It would have been more fun.
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Posted: 20 July 2007 03:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]   

   
 
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beenthere
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Crime Dog:
magi:There was a big influx of religions during that time. I suppose each of them focused on a sentence in the Bible and built a religion around it.


So why didn't any of those idiots pick Ecclesiastes 8:15? It would have been more fun.

They were leaving it for you.  All hail the Church of Crime Dog!  Brats and beer around!
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Posted: 20 July 2007 06:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]   

   
 
NRyker
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edited per I was incorrect in my references.
pardon me....just skipping through...


   


Posted: 20 July 2007 06:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]   

   
 
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beenthere
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NRyker:
edited per I was incorrect in my references.
pardon me....just skipping through...




Welcome to the board, anyway!
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Posted: 23 July 2007 02:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]   

   
 
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nxtOracle
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Well...I finished and submitted my paper. I know I said I'd make is available, but frankly I didn't like how it turned out. The scope of the actual assignment limited me a bit. Sometime soon I'll try to sit down and free-write and write what I want to about both faiths and their similarities. Thanks for the comments and suggestions!
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 ‹‹ Reportedly, the LDS Church has issued a bulletin about members housing missionaries (they will receive a fraction of the fair market rental rate).        Waaaaah! :( ››  

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