Thursday, March 20, 2014
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Why Religion Matters: The Longing Within - Mormon News
Posted: 17 February 2014 05:09 AM [ Ignore ]
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josephs myth
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Why Religion Matters: The Longing Within - Mormon News
The interesting thing might be, how hard it is to try and climb out of the deep and twisted rabbit hole, Mormonism may have invasively tunneled into our otherwise"normal" lives.
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Posted: 17 February 2014 06:11 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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OldSoul
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"Why Religion Matters" - quite self serving when posted from a religion's web site. What other conclusion could they draw?
Better yet "Why Religion is a Waste of Time" - from someone who spent decades in one with no agenda besides a little harmless venting.
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Posted: 17 February 2014 07:18 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Lloyd Dobler
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I find this really interesting because religion matters to a Mormon because of the restoration. As in, the restoration is simply aparantly true, thus the lds church is true, therefore religion matters. Your not really supposed to HAVE to discuss WHY religion matters because the question is unnecessary...........until it seems now that we are deep into the internet and message board age.
The church is fast approaching the time when simply being true will not be enough. The brethren will have to plead with the members as to why they should keep paying tihing beyond the reasoning of, just because I say so.
The church is fast approaching the time when their authority will not be enough either. They are going to have to make their case as to why their church is a better option than another church or not going.
This is the exact kind of problem I am seeing on the ground. Members are losing the what (the church is true) and then asking themselves the why........why stay active, why is this good for my kids again, why am I going to meetings......and they are leaving....and they are not leaving because religion is bad, they are leaving because Mormonism is bad.
The church has spent the last several decades building no philosophical framework for being a Mormon in the first place, choosing instead to just keep bossing people around because they could........and now they are paying the price. The top 15 are not philosophers, they are not theologins and they are not thinkers......they are just good at making money. I can't wait to see them plead the why from the pulpit at GC. It will be pathetic. They also may start sounding a lot like the NOMers that they have been leaving out in the cold. Ah the irony.
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Posted: 17 February 2014 07:45 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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WinstonSmith
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Lloyd Dobler:
The top 15 are not philosophers, they are not theologins and they are not thinkers......they are just good at making money. I can't wait to see them plead the why from the pulpit at GC. It will be pathetic. They also may start sounding a lot like the NOMers that they have been leaving out in the cold. Ah the irony.
So this is what they need to do---after the next top 15 dies, enlist Mitt Romney and and make him a member of the Q15. He bailed the 2002 winter olympics out why not the LD$ Church. He knows how to make money---so he is qualified---and he sure can't keep his mouth shut.
You know... I am starting to think that they got the whole "White Horse Prophecy" wrong---It's not the Constitution that is going to be haning by a thread---It is the LD$ Church that is going to be hanging by a thread.
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“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” -Marcus Aurelius
Posted: 17 February 2014 07:56 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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priorvej12
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Lloyd Dobler... I like your comments and I agree for the most part. ...but some people will keep the faith to the bitter end... no matter what. A problem I see is that people tend to indoctrinate themselves so deeply... so much time and effort to build and susstain a testimony... what a waste and a shame.
I am afraid for my sister. She has put herself in this bubble and totally excluded the real world. Has never read a book that did not agree with church views... never studied anything beyond grade 9... never listens to music watch videos that are not church related. I finally broke contact with her not long ago. I simply could not stand her arrogance and self-rightiousnes any more. She informed me that in her case it is no longer a matter of faith "it is knowledge!" ...she is asserting that SHE KNOWS FOR SURE. She claims to have nightly visitations and conversations with out dead mother. I worry for her... (think she has gone over the edge) What will happen when the church unravels ? This cult has permeated her entire being.. so sad. There will be a great need for crisis counselling if the fraud case is won.. which I hope it is! I feel for those still stuck in the lies and deceit and hope for them that they survive the eventual crash :(
My heart goes out to the members at the same time I cheer for the possible downfall of the church :(
Posted: 17 February 2014 11:08 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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WinstonSmith
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josephs myth:
Why Religion Matters: The Longing Within - Mormon News
The interesting thing might be, how hard it is to try and climb out of the deep and twisted rabbit hole, Mormonism may have invasively tunneled into our otherwise"normal" lives.
One thing that I find interesting about this essay: the footnote references do not quote nor come from anything said by the Q15. I don't frequent the mormonnewroom website so I do not know if this is unique or not? I don't remember anything in the recent past that wasn't just quoting the most recent talks of the Q15. The authorship of this essay is clandestine, but who ever the author is, it is an ill attempt to state facts while expressing conjecture from subjective quotes.
I agree some people need religion, but the notion that only religion can make sense of life, death, pain, sorrow, joy is ridiculous.
I cannot begin to describe the depth for the meaning of life, I have found since I put away the concept of god in man's image. When I consider my spirituality now compared to a 'Morgbot' existece it is in many ways so much better.
If this had not come from the mormonnewroom, I would have thought it written by a protestant church organization. It might be what the PR machine is going for these days.
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“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” -Marcus Aurelius
‹‹ We Left 7 Days Ago, Now What? Church people being good so far....... ››
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"Past, Present, and Possibilities"
Oct. 18-20, 2013
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
Financial Report for 2009
Twin Falls Newspaper Article
Twin Falls Billboard
Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
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OCTOBER CONFERENCE
"Past, Present, and Possibilities"
Oct. 18-20, 2013
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
Financial Report for 2009
Twin Falls Newspaper Article
Twin Falls Billboard
Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
Portland Oregon meetup
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Las Vegas March Meetup! Sunday 16th 1pm
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Scientology Ripped Family Apart—Doubting (Could have an article like this on the news every night about Mormonism)
Posted: 18 March 2014 07:36 PM [ Ignore ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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http://gma.yahoo.com/fla-woman-says-church-scientology-ripped-her-family-165522676--abc-news-topstories.html
Posted: 18 March 2014 09:38 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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I didn't read the article. Back in the early days of Los Interwebz, I was made aware of just how 'eager' los scientologos were to keep members 'impressed' (referring to old maritime practices). I am very serious when I opine that los scientologos make los mormones look like total rookies when it comes to messing with family. Just take a gander at this, from Wiki:
The Sea Organization, or Sea Org, is an unincorporated fraternal religious order of the Church of Scientology, comprising the church's most dedicated members.[3] It has also been described as a private naval force,[4] and has operated several vessels in its past. As of 2009, it consisted of approximately 6,000 members, according to official Scientology statistics.[2] The Sea Org was established on 12 August 1967 by L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Dianetics and Scientology, initially on board four ships, the Diana, the Athena, the Apollo, and the Excalibur.
In 1971, the Sea Org assumed responsibility for the ecclesiastical development of the church, and in particular the delivery of the upper levels of its auditing and training, known as Operating Thetan or OT levels.[5] In 1981, under the aegis of the Commodore's Messenger Organization led by David Miscavige, the Sea Org dissolved the Guardian's Office (GO) and assumed full responsibility for the international management of the Church, later reassigning the duties of the GO to the Office of Special Affairs in 1983 during the corporate restructuring of the Church.[6]
It moved to land-based organizations in 1975, though maritime customs persist, with many members wearing naval-style uniforms and addressing both male and female officers as "sir."[7] In 1988, the church purchased a 440-foot motor vessel, the Freewinds, which docks in Curacao in the southern Caribbean and is used as a religious retreat and training centre, staffed entirely by Sea Org members.[2] Sea Org members make a lifetime commitment to Scientology by signing a billion-year contract that is officially described as a symbolic pledge.[8] In exchange, members are given free room and board, and a small weekly allowance. Sea Org members agree to strict codes of discipline, such as disavowing premarital sex, working long hours (on average at least 100 hours per week or more)[9] and living in communal housing, referred to as "berthings".[10] They are allowed to marry, but must relinquish their membership if they have or want to raise children.[11]
Billion year contracts? You can't have kids and stay in Sea Org? Can you say, "Que weird!"
Posted: 19 March 2014 12:36 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Sister Saucie
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Elder OldDog:
I didn't read the article. Back in the early days of Los Interwebz, I was made aware of just how 'eager' los scientologos were to keep members 'impressed' (referring to old maritime practices). I am very serious when I opine that los scientologos make los mormones look like total rookies when it comes to messing with family. Just take a gander at this, from Wiki:
The Sea Organization, or Sea Org, is an unincorporated fraternal religious order of the Church of Scientology, comprising the church's most dedicated members.[3] It has also been described as a private naval force,[4] and has operated several vessels in its past. As of 2009, it consisted of approximately 6,000 members, according to official Scientology statistics.[2] The Sea Org was established on 12 August 1967 by L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Dianetics and Scientology, initially on board four ships, the Diana, the Athena, the Apollo, and the Excalibur.
In 1971, the Sea Org assumed responsibility for the ecclesiastical development of the church, and in particular the delivery of the upper levels of its auditing and training, known as Operating Thetan or OT levels.[5] In 1981, under the aegis of the Commodore's Messenger Organization led by David Miscavige, the Sea Org dissolved the Guardian's Office (GO) and assumed full responsibility for the international management of the Church, later reassigning the duties of the GO to the Office of Special Affairs in 1983 during the corporate restructuring of the Church.[6]
It moved to land-based organizations in 1975, though maritime customs persist, with many members wearing naval-style uniforms and addressing both male and female officers as "sir."[7] In 1988, the church purchased a 440-foot motor vessel, the Freewinds, which docks in Curacao in the southern Caribbean and is used as a religious retreat and training centre, staffed entirely by Sea Org members.[2] Sea Org members make a lifetime commitment to Scientology by signing a billion-year contract that is officially described as a symbolic pledge.[8] In exchange, members are given free room and board, and a small weekly allowance. Sea Org members agree to strict codes of discipline, such as disavowing premarital sex, working long hours (on average at least 100 hours per week or more)[9] and living in communal housing, referred to as "berthings".[10] They are allowed to marry, but must relinquish their membership if they have or want to raise children.[11]
Billion year contracts? You can't have kids and stay in Sea Org? Can you say, "Que weird!"
Que weird....... Que sick.
Posted: 19 March 2014 05:06 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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In some ways they are more over the top than mormonism but in some ways that makes mormonism more dangerous than Scientology. The harder it is to see it is a cult--the easier it is to become ensnared. The mind-contol is much the same. The shunning and making the religion more important than doubting family members is much the same.
‹‹ UPDATE on Seminary Problems Knock on the Door and Bad Memory ››
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I finally bumped into some Mormon missionaries!
Posted: 19 March 2014 05:08 PM [ Ignore ]
middlemarie
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And couldn't really think about what I wanted to say. I've never been a Mormon but am fascinated and have been waiting to bump into some.
Finally. I was walking near I guess the Mormon Church in Vancouver, BC, Canada and these two young men who look like Mormons walk by so I stare and they say hi. I stop them and literally shout out with glee, "I've finally bumped into Mormons!"
One was from Utah, one from Las Vegas.
I asked about Joseph Smith's wives (apparently he only ever 'had intercourse' with Emma, I must have been thinking of Brigham Young, they said), about gay people getting into the celestial kingdom (they were surprised I knew about the levels). They said it was up to God and not them to judge. I said the celestial kingdom is best, right. and they said yes, that is where they will be with their families forever.
I mentioned the youtube videos I'd seen on secret temple ceremonies; I noted they seemed quite masonic. Don't believe youtube they said and gave me a business card with the 'I'm a Mormon' videos. They invited me to church. I can't sit still for three hours, I said. You'd only have to go for an hour, they said.
They weren't preachy or any of that, just two nice young boys who seemed calm and happy. But who knows. I think I startled them with my enthusiasm.
Posted: 19 March 2014 06:22 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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Well done! If they said JS "didn't have intercourse" with the women, they have been prepped and that was a stock answer. When I was a missionary (early 1980s) I had NO clue about JS's polygamy and the church still does not teach it in their correlated curriculum.
The truth of the matter is that he DID have intercourse, in fact one of the wives (Emily Partridge) admitted that she and Joseph had "carnal intercourse."
Check out this website: http://www.i4m.com/think/history/joseph_smith_sex.htm
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Offical Press Release from Tom Phillips’ Spokeperson
Posted: 15 March 2014 10:43 AM [ Ignore ]
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scarles
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The official press release concerning the first day of proceedings in the fraud case against the LDS Church has been released through David Twede, Tom Phillips' spokesperson in the matter: http://mormondisclosures.blogspot.com/2014/03/fraud-case-first-day-official-release.html
As mentioned in the another thread here, someone inside the courtroom passed information to "Cityworker" who posted it on RfM boards. MT's website has an updated, easy-to-read PDF version of that live-blogging. This is not an actual court transcript, but rather a live commentary, so there are subjective asides.When the offical transcript is released, it will also be availble on MT's site: http://www.mormonthink.com/monson-summons.htm
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Posted: 15 March 2014 10:58 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Jeff Ricks
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scarles:
The official press release concerning the first day of proceedings in the fraud case against the LDS Church has been released through David Twede, Tom Phillips' spokesperson in the matter: http://mormondisclosures.blogspot.com/2014/03/fraud-case-first-day-official-release.html
As mentioned in the another thread here, someone inside the courtroom passed information to "Cityworker" who posted it on RfM boards. MT's website has an updated, easy-to-read PDF version of that live-blogging. This is not an actual court transcript, but rather a live commentary, so there are subjective asides.When the offical transcript is released, it will also be availble on MT's site: http://www.mormonthink.com/monson-summons.htm
Scott, are Twede's comments reviewed by Tom before posting?
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Posted: 15 March 2014 02:10 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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scarles
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Jeff Ricks:
scarles:
The official press release concerning the first day of proceedings in the fraud case against the LDS Church has been released through David Twede, Tom Phillips' spokesperson in the matter: http://mormondisclosures.blogspot.com/2014/03/fraud-case-first-day-official-release.html
As mentioned in the another thread here, someone inside the courtroom passed information to "Cityworker" who posted it on RfM boards. MT's website has an updated, easy-to-read PDF version of that live-blogging. This is not an actual court transcript, but rather a live commentary, so there are subjective asides.When the offical transcript is released, it will also be availble on MT's site: http://www.mormonthink.com/monson-summons.htm
Scott, are Twede's comments reviewed by Tom before posting?
Jeff, yes he has viewed the comment.
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Faith means not wanting to know what is true. — Nietzsche
Posted: 15 March 2014 05:13 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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I especially identified with this portion of the release:
Focusing in on the case at hand, Phillips’ attorneys showed how specific LDS Church representations, particularly its deceptive use of the term, “translate,” are consistent with the illicit acts covered in the United Kingdom’s Fraud Act of 2006.
I mean, honestly, how long can the LDS church continue to lie? "No, no, no, when he said translate he actually meant that God revealed it to him and he doesn't have any kind of translating abilities." Words mean something, and when you mess with their denotations it makes a difference. I can't think of any other group who uses the word translate when they mean "somebody else told me."
I love the ongoing portrayals where Joe studiously labors over the golden plates, which sometimes are in full view of the scribe. We had some mishies over a few years ago and they made the mistake of showing me some goofy video. That very scene popped up and I called them on it. I don't recall how they responded, but my TBM wife was unimpressed; even she admitted the video was a misrepresentation. Or in my language, it was, you know, a lie. Pathetic.
Posted: 16 March 2014 07:41 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Mark D Larsen
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I am astounded that cult's lawyer had the cojones to claim in court "that Thomas Phillips, the British subject who instigated the fraud charges, was a 'disaffected' Mormon whose problems with the church were personal, not legal in nature."
Geeeeezus. Imagine a lawyer arguing that Bernie Maddoff was not guilty because those he defrauded were "disaffected investors whose problems with the business were personal, not legal in nature."
As usual, the cult resorts to ad hominem attacks: the problem is the disaffected member --not the cult. If you can't see the Emperor Joseph's new clothes... well then obviously there is something wrong with you.
Posted: 16 March 2014 08:45 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Mark D Larsen:
I am astounded that cult's lawyer had the cojones to claim in court "that Thomas Phillips, the British subject who instigated the fraud charges, was a 'disaffected' Mormon whose problems with the church were personal, not legal in nature."
Geeeeezus. Imagine a lawyer arguing that Bernie Maddoff was not guilty because those he defrauded were "disaffected investors whose problems with the business were personal, not legal in nature."
As usual, the cult resorts to ad hominem attacks: the problem is the disaffected member --not the cult. If you can't see the Emperor Joseph's new clothes... well then obviously there is something wrong with you.
The reason for that line of argument is that a criminal prosecution being brought by a private citizen in the UK can be dismissed if it is found to be vexatious. I'm not sure how convincing the argument was abou Tom, but legally speaking it wasn't out of line.
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Posted: 16 March 2014 09:30 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Mark D Larsen
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
The reason for that line of argument is that a criminal prosecution being brought by a private citizen in the UK can be dismissed if it is found to be vexatious. I'm not sure how convincing the argument was abou Tom, but legally speaking it wasn't out of line.
Heh heh. Yes, I got that from the summary. I'm sure the cult will use any and all "legal" means possible to dodge this bullet. I simply find it ironic that the defense lawyers would expose, from the outset, the very same socio-psychological machination that the cult uses to commit, reinforce, and perpetuate its blatant fraud.
Funny laws. Kolob forbid that lies should "vex" anyone. Hahaha!
Posted: 16 March 2014 09:35 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Mark D Larsen:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
The reason for that line of argument is that a criminal prosecution being brought by a private citizen in the UK can be dismissed if it is found to be vexatious. I'm not sure how convincing the argument was abou Tom, but legally speaking it wasn't out of line.
Heh heh. Yes, I got that from the summary. I'm sure the cult will use any and all "legal" means possible to dodge this bullet. I simply find it ironic that the defense lawyers would expose, from the outset, the very same socio-psychological machination that the cult uses to commit, reinforce, and perpetuate its blatant fraud.
Funny laws. Kolob forbid that lies should "vex" anyone. Hahaha!
Yeah, the irony is pretty thick. I wonder what kind of impression the lawyers would have made if they had not argued the "vexatious" point and, instead, taken a compassionate (dare I say "Christlike") approach to Tom.
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Posted: 17 March 2014 03:59 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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There is little compassion to be found, when so many British Pounds could be at risk here. Money talks, and bullshit walks, as the saying goes.
Posted: 17 March 2014 01:46 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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seeking peace
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It seems as if TSCC has only one play in their playbook and that is to attack the character of anyone and everyone who does not tow the party line. My parents use it, my neighbors used it, the lawyers used it against Tom Phillips, Jeff Holland uses it when ever he opens his mouth, people on comment boards use it. When it comes to discussing any "issues" they have no defense, so they can only resort to ad hominem attacks. At least most exmo's get tough skin very quickly.
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Posted: 17 March 2014 01:50 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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seeking peace:
It seems as if TSCC has only one play in their playbook and that is to attack the character of anyone and everyone who does not tow the party line.
Yeah, this is pretty much why I have stopped trying to debate TBMs/apologists - I'm the problem, never the doctrine or history.
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Faith means not wanting to know what is true. — Nietzsche
Posted: 17 March 2014 02:46 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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scarles:
Yeah, this is pretty much why I have stopped trying to debate TBMs/apologists - I'm the problem, never the doctrine or history.
"There must be something wrong with you.." ...ah yes this rings a bell..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfb5FYd83Ao
Posted: 17 March 2014 03:14 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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seeking peace
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finex:
scarles:
Yeah, this is pretty much why I have stopped trying to debate TBMs/apologists - I'm the problem, never the doctrine or history.
"There must be something wrong with you.." ...ah yes this rings a bell..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfb5FYd83Ao
Wow--that is one of the top ten creepy (and true) things I have seen on PostMo!
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I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man—Thomas Jefferson
It takes courage to grow up and turn out to be who you really are.—e.e.cummings
Posted: 18 March 2014 06:06 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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This is deserving of a bump up. That website link sure nailed me down....soooo good to be on the outside now looking in on what was.
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What the hell is up with “The Temple”?
Posted: 15 March 2014 05:11 PM [ Ignore ]
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You know, one of the things that bugged me the last few times I went to the temple, is that suddenly all the matrons and workers were constantly saying stuff like:
Thank you for coming to The Temple today.
Welcome to The Temple.
Oh, Brother Unorganized, it's so nice to see you in The Temple again!
We're glad you came to The Temple.
We hope you enjoy your time in The Temple.
What will you be doing in The Temple today?
What clothing do you need to rent in The Temple today?
Please don't wear your street shoes in The Temple.
Leave them by the front door of The Temple.
Every six feet, someone in white tells you you're in The Temple. Listen, I KNOW I'm in the god damned temple! You don't have to keep reminding me!
I was briefly an ordinance worker and I was never instructed to greet people in this manner. But that was many years before I started noticing this "The Temple" business. Prior to that, it was hello, welcome, good to see you, but nobody made a point of putting The Temple in every greeting.
Yesterday there was a temple wedding in my extended family. Even if I was TBM I wouldn't have gone on account of my work commitments. Similarly, if it had been a non-temple wedding, I stll wouldn't have gone. It was 10 AM on a Friday, for cryin' out loud! Who gets married then? Mormons, apparently.
So my Dad (who is a temple worker) comes up to me at the reception that evening and said, "We sure missed you in The Temple today."
What the hell is this? Is it a worthiness check? Have they been instructed to greet people in this manner?
It's creepy and cultish, as if the temple itself wasn't bad enough.
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Posted: 15 March 2014 05:46 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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In any other non-Mormon family, they would have said we missed you at the WEDDING.
Posted: 15 March 2014 05:53 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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It could be the kids in the club/cult making up more neat code words and phrases to emphasize how really cool they all are!
Posted: 15 March 2014 05:58 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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bjohn:
In any other non-Mormon family, they would have said we missed you at the WEDDING.
Yup!!!
Posted: 15 March 2014 08:09 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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I might respond, "There is only one... Man, Gordon didn't accomplish that much after all."
Posted: 15 March 2014 08:53 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
zenzombie
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Matter Unorganized:
So my Dad (who is a temple worker) comes up to me at the reception that evening and said, "We sure missed you in The Temple today."
So annoying, judgemental, and hurtful because it really means "we're going to miss you in the celestial kingdom because of how you have chosen to live your life and we wish you would come back."
He could have simply said how happy he was to see you in that moment, rather than expressing his thinly veiled disappointment.
Posted: 16 March 2014 06:51 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Bold Wish
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Matter Unorganized:
So my Dad (who is a temple worker) comes up to me at the reception that evening and said, "We sure missed you in The Temple today."
Could there be a better example to illustrate the mind-controlling tactics of the great and abominable organizaiton than the temple?
Where else in the world do people voluntarily gather together in groups, raise their hands to the square and - after being reminded of the penalties for those who refuse to go along with the promises - they then make an oath that they promise before god, angels and witnesses at the altar that they will give everything they own - all financial resources, all their time, even their own lives if necessary in sustaining and defending an organization that clearly lies and has done so from the very beginning?
FREAK-O-ZOID-ISH-CRACK-DOPE-WEIRD!
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When I discovered the truth and realized the organization was lying to me, that they had always been lying to me, I felt a sting of betrayal, the humiliation from an organization who profits abundantly by violating trust. I knew that no matter what would come of it, I could no longer remain associated with the organization in any way. Since leaving, I’ve enjoyed thinking on my own, guilt is almost a foreign concept, and being in control of my life is incredibly satisfying.
Posted: 16 March 2014 07:52 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Aleut
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Bold Wish:
Matter Unorganized:
So my Dad (who is a temple worker) comes up to me at the reception that evening and said, "We sure missed you in The Temple today."
Could there be a better example to illustrate the mind-controlling tactics of the great and abominable organizaiton than the temple?
Where else in the world do people voluntarily gather together in groups, raise their hands to the square and - after being reminded of the penalties for those who refuse to go along with the promises - they then make an oath that they promise before god, angels and witnesses at the altar that they will give everything they own - all financial resources, all their time, even their own lives if necessary in sustaining and defending an organization that clearly lies and has done so from the very beginning?
FREAK-O-ZOID-ISH-CRACK-DOPE-WEIRD!
[ ] As I read this I was reminded of:
-
The Wehrmacht Oath of Loyalty to Adolf Hitler, 2 August 1934
"I swear by God this sacred oath that to the Leader of the German empire and people, Adolf Hitler, supreme commander of the armed forces, I shall render unconditional obedience and that as a brave soldier I shall at all times be prepared to give my life for this oath."
Source: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_oath
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Posted: 16 March 2014 07:53 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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The sad thing is that the statement about "missed you at the temple" is pure judgement. It's never about the wedding. It's about people looking good in front of each other.
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Posted: 16 March 2014 08:13 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Well, it is a corporation. I'm sure "the temple" is used in a similar manner to "thanks for coming to Wal Mart! Have a nice day!"
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Posted: 16 March 2014 08:14 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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Aleut:
Bold Wish:
Matter Unorganized:
So my Dad (who is a temple worker) comes up to me at the reception that evening and said, "We sure missed you in The Temple today."
Could there be a better example to illustrate the mind-controlling tactics of the great and abominable organizaiton than the temple?
Where else in the world do people voluntarily gather together in groups, raise their hands to the square and - after being reminded of the penalties for those who refuse to go along with the promises - they then make an oath that they promise before god, angels and witnesses at the altar that they will give everything they own - all financial resources, all their time, even their own lives if necessary in sustaining and defending an organization that clearly lies and has done so from the very beginning?
FREAK-O-ZOID-ISH-CRACK-DOPE-WEIRD!
[ ] As I read this I was reminded of:
-
The Wehrmacht Oath of Loyalty to Adolf Hitler, 2 August 1934
"I swear by God this sacred oath that to the Leader of the German empire and people, Adolf Hitler, supreme commander of the armed forces, I shall render unconditional obedience and that as a brave soldier I shall at all times be prepared to give my life for this oath."
Source: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_oath E
Eerily true!
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“...Don’t be trapped by dogma - which is living with the results of other people’s thinking. Don’t let the noise of others’ opinions drown out your own inner voice…”
-Steve Jobs
Posted: 16 March 2014 12:37 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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Quartersawn
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I felt for years, even before leaving TSCC, that TSCC worshipped the temple, but I was fooled into thinking that 'the temple leads to Christ.' It really leads one away from Christ.
There really is nothing in the temple that points to Christ, it all points to the priesthood (men) and the organization (lead by men), and us working out our own salvation by performing dead and meaningless works.
I once was in a print shop where there was a picture of a very cute, happy child on the wall. I remarked how beautiful it was. The old lady sitting at the desk said, "I like this one better!" pointing to an artist rendition of the Payson temple.
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Why would you consider a man a prophet whose morals are worse than your own? Having claimed to commune with deity, be visited by angels and receive revelations, should he not be held to a higher standard? —me
Posted: 16 March 2014 09:46 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
ckk
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Quartersawn:
I felt for years, even before leaving TSCC, that TSCC worshipped the temple, but I was fooled into thinking that 'the temple leads to Christ.' It really leads one away from Christ.
There really is nothing in the temple that points to Christ, it all points to the priesthood (men) and the organization (lead by men), and us working out our own salvation by performing dead and meaningless works.
I once was in a print shop where there was a picture of a very cute, happy child on the wall. I remarked how beautiful it was. The old lady sitting at the desk said, "I like this one better!" pointing to an artist rendition of the Payson temple.
This is very true. I was surprised and disappointed (and yes, freaked out) after my first visit to the temple b/c none of it had anything to do with drawing closer to Christ. Yes, technically Christ is present in the movie shown in "The Temple", but other than that I felt no closer to him, no more enlightened, no more capable of living a Christlike life. I spent years attending and bothered from time-to-time by the temple not being what it purported to be. All those years in Primary and Young Women's and my singles' ward RS I was taught that in the temple you learned more about Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and you drew closer to your Savior. That was not the case. But you're right, you learn more about the priesthood and the patriarchal organization and you perform meaningless work. It's a waste.
Posted: 17 March 2014 02:24 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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TheThomas
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Quartersawn:
I felt for years, even before leaving TSCC, that TSCC worshipped the temple, but I was fooled into thinking that 'the temple leads to Christ.' It really leads one away from Christ.
There really is nothing in the temple that points to Christ, it all points to the priesthood (men) and the organization (lead by men), and us working out our own salvation by performing dead and meaningless works.
I once was in a print shop where there was a picture of a very cute, happy child on the wall. I remarked how beautiful it was. The old lady sitting at the desk said, "I like this one better!" pointing to an artist rendition of the Payson temple.
I've talked many times here before about my experiences regarding the temple. I haven't actually been in there, but even while growing up, being an unworthy teen, what I wanted to do was be inside the temple because I literally thought there would be a possibility of it making me a happier person.
Now that I know what actually goes on in there, well I'm not happy but I guess I'm more happy now than I would have been after being massively dissapointed at even more anguish in that stupid program to cure my "addiction" and finding out God doesn't actually talk to people there..
Maybe it's time for some DMT...
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I could hie to Kolob, but I don’t want to.
Posted: 17 March 2014 05:41 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
Destroyingangl
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Did any of you ever attend the temple after you decided you didn't believe but before you told anyone? I did once because I was still in the Eq presidency and they were attending as a presidency and I thought it might be interesting to see it all from a different perspective. While I certainly remembered it all from the many times I had gone before, I was still so weirded out by it all. As everyone was bowing their heads and agreeing to that crap so blindly, I just couldn't get past the idea that I once believed that all to be a sacred experience. All I kept thinking was that these people had been brainwashed and why wasn't the spirit alerting any of the workers that an unbeliever was amongst them?
As for the constant repetition of "the temple", I always assumed that was just what old people did to remind themselves where they are. For some of those really old workers, it would be scary to have an episode and all of a sudden find yourself surrounded by dozens of men dressed up like a creepy chef boyardee.
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Destroyingangl
Prophet/President of the Zelph’s Angels Motorcycle Club
Posted: 17 March 2014 08:40 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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Destroyingangl:
Did any of you ever attend the temple after you decided you didn't believe but before you told anyone? I did once because I was still in the Eq presidency and they were attending as a presidency and I thought it might be interesting to see it all from a different perspective. While I certainly remembered it all from the many times I had gone before, I was still so weirded out by it all. As everyone was bowing their heads and agreeing to that crap so blindly, I just couldn't get past the idea that I once believed that all to be a sacred experience. All I kept thinking was that these people had been brainwashed and why wasn't the spirit alerting any of the workers that an unbeliever was amongst them?
As for the constant repetition of "the temple", I always assumed that was just what old people did to remind themselves where they are. For some of those really old workers, it would be scary to have an episode and all of a sudden find yourself surrounded by dozens of men dressed up like a creepy chef boyardee.
I went once as a non-believer before I told anyone. As we were driving home, my wife said "Well that was a nice little session, wasn't it?" And I thought to myself WTF? How could it be a "nice" session? How was it any different from any other of the hundreds of sessions we've attended? It's the same thing, time after time, never any change.
And no, it does not lead one closer to Jesus. Not in any way, shape or form. The only TBM answer I could think of would be it brings one closer to Jesus because it's Jesus' program and we need to be obedient blah blah blah...
And one more thing, JS said in section 137:
7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;
8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;
9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.
All of which begs the question: Why the hell do people have to go to the temple and do genealogy?
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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler
Posted: 17 March 2014 02:39 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
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Bold Wish
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Matter Unorganized:
All of which begs the question: Why the hell do people have to go to the temple and do genealogy?
I believe the answer lies in the oaths made there: first the warning if disobedience occurs, then the oath to submit literally everything - all the money and your own life to the organization.
The purpose of going to the building - to keep reminding one of the oath - is to help insure the dollars keep flowing in to the organization - simple as that.
The temple can only be understood and appreciated if you have the spirit with you . . .
This is one of the most diabolically wrong methods of mind control I've ever witnessed and it infuriates me because TBM DW is still under their spell.
Me, I'm just a pawn of satan - she prays for me, tells me I'm mentally incapable of understanding god's law, still thinks we will - somehow - be forever together again.
(sigh)
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When I discovered the truth and realized the organization was lying to me, that they had always been lying to me, I felt a sting of betrayal, the humiliation from an organization who profits abundantly by violating trust. I knew that no matter what would come of it, I could no longer remain associated with the organization in any way. Since leaving, I’ve enjoyed thinking on my own, guilt is almost a foreign concept, and being in control of my life is incredibly satisfying.
Posted: 17 March 2014 03:46 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 17 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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Jesus, Bold Wish, that sucks.
It's like DW, when one of our girls went "wayward", she thought she could pray away her free agency. Um, not so. And DW also starts telling me church stuff, then says something like "Why am I telling you this? You don't understand..." WTF? I was a mormon for 50 years. I understand ALL TOO WELL.
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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler
Posted: 17 March 2014 04:19 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 18 ]
Hikin_az
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In a last ditch attempt to be a good Mormon I renewed my recommend. It had been a while since my last interview. The part where they make you read some idiotic statement about not working on the yard with your shirt off really bothered me. What the hell? All the problems in the world and this is what leadership is worried about?
So then I went to the Mesa temple for my niece going on a mission. By this time my eyes were starting to open and my Bs meter was working overtime. Everything was so creepy that time around. I happened to sit by my brother who unbeknownst to me was also questioning faith. He kept cracking jokes. It turned out to be the best experience I ever had in the temple.
Had I not gone back I probably would have stayed in the church longer ironically.
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Postmormon.org…Its about time.
Posted: 17 March 2014 04:32 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 19 ]
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Elder OldDog
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I don't remember the exact date, but it was the Thursday I was in the SLC Mission Home, in May of 1965... All the missionaries went throught the SLC temple. After the session, we (just the men) went up some stairs into a fairly large meeting hall. My memory is really, really hazy about this somewhat brief event (I remember all the girls I've kissed, but temply shit seems to have not stuck much...) but I temember that there were some apostles up on the stand and either the whole point was, or at some point we were invited, to ask any question we wanted about the "mysteries" of the gospel plan. There we were, with prophets, seers and revelators (although DOMcKay wasn't present), who were ready to share with us the intricacies of the gospel!!!
I didn't have any questions (cuz I fuckin' knew it all) and I don't remember any questions that were asked, much less the answers.
So... anyone else remember that? I wonder if we have enough old timers to kind of get a gauge as to when that stopped? Not that we could fault the church, what with the missionary program having become so huge. But if they (the apostles) at one time felt they had all the answers, why are they so seemingly helpless when it comes to answering the questions that the internet has prompted the faithful to ask?
Posted: 17 March 2014 05:36 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 20 ]
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15 1/2 years after your experience, I was at the MTC in Provo, UT. We had just done a session at the Provo flying saucer temple, and all were invited, Elders and Sisters alike, down to the basement of the temple where there was a meeting room where we were greated by A. Theodore Tuttle of the 70, and were told that he would answer any and all questions about the temple, and that this would be our only chance to do so. Of course, I don't remember if any questions were asked (I certainly didn't) and he just gave us a discourse on 2 Nephi 2 and Adam and Eve and the forbidden fruit and that kind of stuff.
Oh, if I had only known then what I know now!
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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler
Posted: 17 March 2014 07:20 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 21 ]
Senses Fail
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Joined 2014-02-27
I read this post a few days ago and wondered if I had noticed this trend. Sure enough, this morning at work, my team was discussing the hypothetical situation of winning $1 billion with a perfect march madness bracket, when my coworker asked the question "yeah, but could you still carry THE CARD?".
I try my hardest to live and let live even though everyone at work (a public accounting firm) talks about (mormon) religion since our team is located in SLC, but I had no idea what he was talking about. I asked him to clarify. His response, "you know, 'the card'" and just looked at me. I asked him to clarify again, stating I had no idea what card he was talking about. After saying "The Card" four times, he finally clarified that he was talking about his temple recommend, and he was trying to turn it into a conversation about whether or not you could pay tithing on 1 billion dollars if it was earned from possible gambling winnings (depending on your definition).
It was a stupid conversation no matter what, but it turned much more stupid when I was repeatedly asked about "The Card".
Apparently it is getting worse than "the Temple".
Annoying.
Posted: 17 March 2014 07:28 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 22 ]
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Bold Wish
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It was a stupid conversation no matter what, but it turned much more stupid when I was repeatedly asked about "The Card".
The organization has provided public statements against gambling of any type - probably because they don't want to loose tithing money - but they also said they don't accept tithing or other donations from money received when gambling.
Ya, right. I bet if someone won $240M (after taxes) and they offered the organization $24M, TSCC would send a team of people to pick up the check faster than a monkey on crack could say "Jumpin Jack Flash"
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When I discovered the truth and realized the organization was lying to me, that they had always been lying to me, I felt a sting of betrayal, the humiliation from an organization who profits abundantly by violating trust. I knew that no matter what would come of it, I could no longer remain associated with the organization in any way. Since leaving, I’ve enjoyed thinking on my own, guilt is almost a foreign concept, and being in control of my life is incredibly satisfying.
Posted: 17 March 2014 07:28 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 23 ]
Senses Fail
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quick follow up to my above post. My one thought while the conversation turned into tithing was "what the hell kind of stupid question is that? OF COURSE TSCC would accept tithing on $1 billion, their sould purpose is gaining wealth, whether they need it or not".
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