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Posted: 29 July 2007 09:47 PM [ Ignore ]
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Heavenly1
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Were you a convert to the church? If you were, what attracted you to the church and made you decide to become a member?
I was a convert and joined because I wanted to please my future DH. I am no longer a member of record.
There are days I think, "Wouldn't it be nice to be active in church once again?" And then there are days like today where I think, "What a crock!"
Does anyone else have those flip-flop feelings?
Posted: 29 July 2007 10:22 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
jahedgpeth
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Heavenly:There are days I think, "Wouldn't it be nice to be active in church once again?" And then there are days like today where I think, "What a crock!"
If you don't mind me asking:
What happend today that made you think, "what a crock"?
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Posted: 30 July 2007 12:13 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Heavenly1
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jahedgpeth:
Heavenly:There are days I think, "Wouldn't it be nice to be active in church once again?" And then there are days like today where I think, "What a crock!"
If you don't mind me asking:
What happend today that made you think, "what a crock"?
Nothing out of the ordinary happened today to make me think "What a crock." I've been reading through the posts here and on another board, and just got ticked off by what I read. Being a member of the church has caused some people so much anguish. I know it's taken my DH years to look at life outside the Mobox.
Posted: 30 July 2007 02:42 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Sestra
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I don't think I truly believe anymore, except for maybe one or two points, but it was fun. Now that the fun is gone, and I have more time to read about it all, it doesn't seem quite so important anymore. I lasted 3 years though.
Posted: 30 July 2007 02:47 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Smitty
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Converted to please my DW. For awhile I bought into it as being true, but as time went on and I started to see things for what they really were, I began to question the truth. The temple was the final straw for me, and since then (almost 6 years now) I have come to the realization that the church is crap. Only within the last few months have I been posting in this site and reading alot of the books, but you know how they say its like a burning in the busom, well, I had a burning alright, a burning that the church is not everything its cracked up to be.
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I reject your reality and substitute my own
Posted: 30 July 2007 03:43 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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mamapajama
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I'm a convert, but it wasn't pushed on me by my DH who was raised in the church. We were married in the Episcopal Church. We thought (at the time) that we needed to raise our kids in some faith. He wasn't particularly fond of the formality of mine, so I called the missionaries for the discussions, having already decided that I'd join. I don't think that I realized how seriously so many Mormons took their faith or themselves, but I admired it in many ways. They seemed to LIVE their faith. I really liked the emphasis on family.
My first calling as a new member was 1st counselor in the Primary Presidency. My personality is such that when I agree to do something, I usually jump in and work pretty hard. Even though I was never really comfortable in my new Mormon skin, I feel that I did a good job in each of my callings. For the first few years of my 10 or 11 years of active participation, I didn't really have much of a grasp on church history, other than the white bread LDS-approved version. I pushed my DH (who wasn't really very active) to go to the temple so I could do what I thought was my next step in my progression. Yikes! I progressed alright...but those temple visits were key to my progression OUT of the church.
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Posted: 30 July 2007 05:34 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
More Cowbell
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I was a convert but at age of 5, and mostly because my parents joined. I'm guessing that since I was a kid not making a terribly conscious decision, it's tough to really gather much useful from that fact.
Posted: 30 July 2007 06:13 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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livefromMO
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I joined the church when I was a teenager. I was looking for stability and I found it.
In the last 5 years, I have felt very little community within the Mormon church which has made it easier to let go of those feelings. Mormon women talk about birthing babies and raising children and I do both of those things outside of the mainstream. So I end up having little in common with most Mormon women because, in spite of religious practices being outside of mainstream, they parent the way the supernanny tells them to just like most of America.
Posted: 30 July 2007 04:08 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Allegory
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I was a convert. I was looking for answers to hard doctrinal questions and stability. I read the BoM on my own, loved it, called missionaries etc...Unfortunalty, nobody told me about old Joe's magic rocks, D&C, BoA, JS polygamy, MMM.
What I found in 5 years of activity was that 99% of my friends were friends to "baptize the convert". I have never felt a sense of community on the COJCOLDS. My first singles ward was as close as it came. I could not have any kind of intelligent discussion with other members. Can you say "blank stare"?
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School: “Did you learn to believe, or did you learn to think?” ...Ralph Nader quoting his father…
Posted: 30 July 2007 04:23 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Cartoon Bluejay
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Heavenly:Were you a convert to the church? If you were, what attracted you to the church and made you decide to become a member?
I was a convert and joined because I wanted to please my future DH. I am no longer a member of record.
There are days I think, "Wouldn't it be nice to be active in church once again?" And then there are days like today where I think, "What a crock!"
Does anyone else have those flip-flop feelings?
I was not a convert but I have those flip-flop feelings all the time. The last time I attended church was probably 4 months ago (I don't know). It was hard to leave because I felt like my friends were in the church but really there was no one to talk to about what concerned me - it stayed in the closet for years. I often think it would be nice to be a part of the community again but truly they are there for those who go to church. Last night I went to a party for someone in the ward who is moving that I was friends with and it's hot so I show up in a tank top - (it's basically a ward party). I thought - I really miss these people maybe I should just go back to church - but it would mean going back into the closet and having no one to talk to again.
I think if it's community your missing - find something you love and join a group. This is a great start - although it's online - I feel tremendous support from this group of well-educated, open-minded people. I'm thinking again - REJOICE!!!
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Posted: 30 July 2007 04:37 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
barrett57
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Joined 2007-06-20
My sister joined as soon as she turned 18. Her reasons, in her own words, were:
"If I join, I won't have to think any more. They'll tell me what I need to know."
"They put women on pedestals."
Thirty years later, she's still a member. Her motivation mostly was to avoid adult responsibilities and to please Donny Osmond, her idol. Realizing she'd be on her own following high school graduation, she panicked, took the discussions, married her missionary and has been morbidly obese and clinically depressed ever since. She's raised three children, all with mental health problems. Two went on missions and neither completed it. The son was sent home for a sprained ankle--like anyone believes that--and not for his favorite pasttime, torturing small animals to watch them suffer. This is one sick family but "We're an eternal family. Isn't that just awesome!!"
Posted: 30 July 2007 05:29 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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nxtOracle
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Great idea for a thread.
I joined the church at age 17. Had had studied for two years prior to being baptized. At age 15 I had discovered Mormonism through trying to invite some friends to my Protestant youth group and church. I began studying to try to convince them that they were wrong. At 16 I attended seminary for a school year, studying the Book of Mormon. So, by the time I met with the missionaries, my credentials were firmly in place and missionaries were just a formality.
There were many factors that attributed to my conversion. One factor was social. Many friends I had made in my church and youth group moved away, and it was difficult for me to continue being active. I also went through many spiritual experiences which I felt directed me to be baptized. Some of these were amazingly powerful. Today, I can only explain them by saying that the mind is a powerful instrument. I don't understand it. I also think the families of my LDS friends impressed me. They still do. However, after having served a mission, I know that there are as many unstable families in the church as there are out of the church. These families just happened to be extraordinary amazing and LDS.
I served a mission at 19, returned home at 21. I emotionally and mentally left the church before returning home, and now at almost 23 continue to be disaffected.
That's the cliff notes version!
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Posted: 31 July 2007 02:36 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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Sestra
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Joined 2007-06-08
The first moment I realized the church is no better than any other in making good people: I was new, trying to feel a part of everything, and enjoying going to ward and stake activities to meet other members. I went to a singles event, but only to meet people from all over my stake. Good thing too, as there really were no eligible men under 60. I sat with 2 sisters and chatted nicely with them. Two more sat with us, and when they found out that I had not completed my divorce, one proceeded to tell me that I should not have come, not to tell anyone, that I really shouldn't even be there, blah blah. I felt one inch tall. Another sister told me to just sit with them and tell no one. But Ms Busybody proceeded to tell anyone who sat at our table about my "bad" status. I felt like leaving but my stubborn pride forbade that. I left to stand in the buffet line and found another seat when I had gotten my food. I only went to meet people in my new church. It was funny though to see these same women fall over themselves about the one 'eligible' man there. I say that because if he had proven to be gay, I wouldn't have been surprised. Over 30, lived at home, owned a beauty salon, and was very well groomed. Ok, not to diminish straight men, but that is almost cliche gay. I at least was not looking for men, geez. These women succeeded in making me feel extremely welcome....NOT. I talked with my bishop who said it was ok, my ward would have no problem in me going to singles events, but just don't date til the divorce was final. He was fabulous. Yet I knew that there would be people who would never be what I expected of members, my illusions vs their yakky words, boastings of being true, etc......
Posted: 31 July 2007 04:25 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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Ed
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I joined the church at age 15. Like many teens felt a pretty large void in my life that I felt religion would fill. The LDS church was the first to find me, and I primarily that alone as my reason for joining. I think that if I had attended a traditional Christian church first that I would have planted my roots there instead.
That having been said, the Joseph Smith story very much appealed to me, as he was somebody close to my age with the same questions that I had. I imagine this is why the LDS church pushes the story so heavily in the early teachings. I had mixed feelings on the other doctrines: some seemed great (three degrees of glory, priesthood authority) and others seemed very hoakey (Book of Mormon, baptism for the dead).
I burried all of the doubts when I joined the church, only to have them resurface again and again. Took 11 years for me to finally realize that it was all bogus and get out.
‹‹ I had to walk out of Sacrament Meeting today Old habits die hard... ››
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Financial Report for 2010 to Date
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Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
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Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
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LDS Family Services
Posted: 06 August 2007 06:26 PM [ Ignore ]
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Allegory
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Linkage: http://newscafe.ansci.usu.edu/archive/march2005/031205_pregnant.html
"When using LDS Family Services the cost is a minimum of $4,000 and a maximum of $10,000, which is chosen based on 10 percent of the annual income. "
WTF? Is this a normal practice for adoption agencies? The Children's Aid Society also charges 8% in addition to 10k...Wow...Guess Family Services isn't in it just for the families.
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UPDATE on Seminary Problems
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by finex
Wine was different in Jesus time
by finex
Depression After Resignation
by finex
Church asks activist group to reconsider plans to protest GC
by Brad (ZeeZrom)
"Katie Finds a Better Way": A Story for the "Friend" and Musicalkate (New Link)
by Brad (ZeeZrom)
Spin off Post "Cleaning House" - Genealogy
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Cleaning House
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I finally bumped into some Mormon missionaries!
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Scientology Ripped Family Apart-- Doubting (Could have an article like this on the news every night about Mormonism)
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Big Bang Theory Proven--Validation for this Scientist's Life's Work--Beautiful!
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Knock on the Door and Bad Memory
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I could use some help!
by son of perdition
Looking for fellow lost souls
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Mormon Church sending people DNA test kits but refusing to comment on results?
by OldSoul
Couldn't a real prophet find that plane?
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I need help more than LDS corp.
by victim
Mormon kitsch
by huehuetenango
A Daring Statement by an 8-year-old
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This is Hard
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OCTOBER CONFERENCE
"Past, Present, and Possibilities"
Oct. 18-20, 2013
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
Financial Report for 2009
Twin Falls Newspaper Article
Twin Falls Billboard
Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
Portland Oregon meetup
[Portland Post-Mor...]
Las Vegas March Meetup! Sunday 16th 1pm
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
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SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/2)
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March Get Together
[Idaho Falls Post-...]
San Diego lunch this Sunday at noon!
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March 2nd 2014-Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
[Southern Utah Pos...]
FEB 22 - First ever Boston Meeting!
[Boston, MA Post-M...]
Every Sunday in Utah
[Salt Lake City Po...]
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[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
Secret FB group and dinner social
[East Tennessee Po...]
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[Southern Utah Pos...]
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Swearing Elder
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
dovahkiyn
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onendagus
Visitors welcome !
priorvej12
Las Vegas meetup Sun Jan 12th 1pm at Milos in Boulder City
onendagus
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gypsyrose
Book of Mormon Tories
by Tom Donofrio
Book of Mormon Tories
by Nogginus Skepticalus
Native American DNA
by GTM
Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Reuben
Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Virginia Steve
CALM meet up for June
4bagel
Revised NW Women's Retreat Announcement
lunaverse
Austin Fall Party
lightrider702
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
by Timo
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by ExMoNemo
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Mikki B
Resignation Letter to My Family
Mikki B
Resignation Letter to My Family
Waveoftruth
Resignation Letter to My Family
In search of Truth
Carolina PostMo Night: “The Master"
Swearing Elder
Washington D.C. Post-Mormon Lunch - August 28
freckles
Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
by Jeff Ricks
Resignation Letter to My Family
pennw
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LDS Family Services
Posted: 06 August 2007 06:26 PM [ Ignore ]
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Allegory
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Linkage: http://newscafe.ansci.usu.edu/archive/march2005/031205_pregnant.html
"When using LDS Family Services the cost is a minimum of $4,000 and a maximum of $10,000, which is chosen based on 10 percent of the annual income. "
WTF? Is this a normal practice for adoption agencies? The Children's Aid Society also charges 8% in addition to 10k...Wow...Guess Family Services isn't in it just for the families.
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The worst conference talk you ever heard live?
Posted: 02 August 2007 04:22 AM [ Ignore ]
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BigWig
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I've always hated general conference. It's boring and not particularly uplifting. I've always liked conference weekend, though, because, hey, no church!
General conference brings out all the worst in mormonism. Journal of Discourses is full of evil, but what are the worst conference talks we've heard live? There are two that I particularly hate, and both are quite recent.
First, "And Nothing Shall Offend Them" by David Bednar (Oct. 2006). Here's his argument:
1. Most "less-active" (I hate that term!) people stop going to church because they've been offended.
2. When you stop going to church, you risk going to hell.
3. Being offended is a stupid reason to go to hell.
I agree with point three. I can't imagine losing salvation because I didn't like a sunday school class. The reason I hate this talk is because of point one. I think he intentionally trivializes the diverse and legitimate reasons that many people (including all of us) have stopped believing and disassociated themselves with the church. Now, all the TBMs who listen to conference (including everyone in my family) will think that the reason I quit believing is because I got offended. Lies! Damn lies!
The second awful talk is "Let Us Be Men" by D. Todd Christofferson (April 2007). I think he can explain it himself:
Years ago, when my brothers and I were boys, our mother had radical cancer surgery. She came very close to death. Much of the tissue in her neck and shoulder had to be removed, and for a long time it was very painful for her to use her right arm.
One morning about a year after the surgery, my father took Mother to an appliance store and asked the manager to show her how to use a machine he had for ironing clothes. The machine was called an Ironrite. It was operated from a chair by pressing pedals with one's knees to lower a padded roller against a heated metal surface and turn the roller, feeding in shirts, pants, dresses, and other articles. You can see that this would make ironing (of which there was a great deal in our family of five boys) much easier, especially for a woman with limited use of her arm. Mother was shocked when Dad told the manager they would buy the machine and then paid cash for it. Despite my father's good income as a veterinarian, Mother's surgery and medications had left them in a difficult financial situation.
On the way home, my mother was upset: "How can we afford it? Where did the money come from? How will we get along now?" Finally Dad told her that he had gone without lunches for nearly a year to save enough money. "Now when you iron," he said, "you won't have to stop and go into the bedroom and cry until the pain in your arm stops." She didn't know he knew about that. I was not aware of my father's sacrifice and act of love for my mother at the time, but now that I know, I say to myself, "There is a man."
I don't know what to say. I want some clever and eloquent epithet, but all I have is: his dad is an ass. Iron your own laundry! Your wife is crying? Iron your own damn laundry! Wear wrinkled clothes! She cried every time she ironed for a year! This is not an example of a christian man. He did not love his wife as much as he loved himself. Why is this guy bragging about this? He should be ashamed.
Christofferson wants to teach us how to be men. This man was compassionate to his wife in the way a man is compassionate toward a servant or a pet. Is this how we're supposed to see our wives? I'm just disgusted.
What are the worst conference talks you've heard live?
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But you’ll find those lingering voices
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Posted: 02 August 2007 04:27 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
NotTheMomma
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I remember a talk by, I think it was M. Russell Ballard where he basically said that homeless people were either alcoholic or drug addicts. I couldn't believe I heard it correctly, though I know I did. I checked it carefully when the Ensign came out and they had edited that part out.
Posted: 02 August 2007 05:12 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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MonaMa
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This wasn't a conference talk, but I went to hear an apostal speak in Logan. The jist of what I got from it was... men it is your responsibility to find a wife, but ladies don't expect a guy to like you if you look like death warmed over, put on some make-up! No wonder you're still single, you look like death. Add a little color to your cheeks and lips, then guys might want to approach you.
I was married at the time and went home wondering if my husband would leave me because I don't wear make-up.
Posted: 02 August 2007 05:17 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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The PRofit
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NotTheMomma:I remember a talk by, I think it was M. Russell Ballard where he basically said that homeless people were either alcoholic or drug addicts. I couldn't believe I heard it correctly, though I know I did. I checked it carefully when the Ensign came out and they had edited that part out.
The one where Gordo the Clown PRofit said that the truthfulness of the crutch all boiled down to the 1st Vision.
Either the 1st Vision either happened the way Joseph's Myth said it did or it didn't. Either the crutch is true or it is the biggest fraud ever foisted upon mankind. There is no middle ground.
I went with fraud. Maybe not the biggest one ever foisted upon mankind, that'd have to be either Islam, Naziism or Communism, or Amway, but definitely a fraud and not at all what Joseph's Myth claimed.
When my bishop used the same line on me, "Well, it all boils down to the 1st vision, either it happened the way Joseph's Myth said it happened or it didn't!"
I said, "Which version?"
He said, "Well there's only one official version."
I said, "Yeah, well it bears very little resemblance to the original version, which was written 10 years prior to the "official version" and the original version was the only one written in Joseph's Myth's own hand."
He said, "Well, they're all basically the same in the important details."
I shook my head in the east west direction.
He said, "They're not?" (Apparently this was the first time he'd ever heard anything about the different versions of the 1st Vision)
I said, "No, they contradict each other. The original one only mentioned one "lord". 10 years later, under extreme duress, needing to prop up his authority with some divine authority, he made up the "official version" where both God and Jesus appeared to him and gave him authority."
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Delusion: a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.
Posted: 02 August 2007 05:18 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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BigWig
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Monama:
ladies don't expect a guy to like you if you look like death warmed over, put on some make-up! No wonder you're still single, you look like death. Add a little color to your cheeks and lips, then guys might want to approach you.
I was married at the time and went home wondering if my husband would leave me because I don't wear make-up.
What love and compassion! I expect no less from the loyalest disciples of Joseph Smith Jesus Christ.
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But you’ll find those lingering voices
Are just your ego’s attempt to make it all clean and nice
And make a moron out of you
Fighting in a Sack
Posted: 02 August 2007 05:27 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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BigWig
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Koriwhore:
The one where Gordo the Clown PRofit said that the truthfulness of the crutch all boiled down to the 1st Vision.
Either the 1st Vision either happened the way Joseph's Myth said it did or it didn't. Either the crutch is true or it is the biggest fraud ever foisted upon mankind. There is no middle ground.
It's interesting that mormonism allows to middle ground: "Wherefore because thou art lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spew thee out of my mouth." This has led to some struggle in my own home because he convinced my TBM wife that since I don't believe fully, I should completely disassociate myself from the church; she doesn't even think I should attend church.
The arrogance of the statement, however, is quite striking. The biggest fraud? Not even close. I think that, on the fraud meter, it lies somewhere below Nigerian email scams in the number of people affected.
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But you’ll find those lingering voices
Are just your ego’s attempt to make it all clean and nice
And make a moron out of you
Fighting in a Sack
Posted: 02 August 2007 05:28 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Spencer Kimball. General Conference, spring 1978. I was almost to the breaking point, and watching his talk made me realize he wasn't a prophet -- just a tired, old man.
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Posted: 02 August 2007 06:03 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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The PRofit
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BigWig:
Koriwhore:
The one where Gordo the Clown PRofit said that the truthfulness of the crutch all boiled down to the 1st Vision.
Either the 1st Vision either happened the way Joseph's Myth said it did or it didn't. Either the crutch is true or it is the biggest fraud ever foisted upon mankind. There is no middle ground.
It's interesting that mormonism allows to middle ground: "Wherefore because thou art lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spew thee out of my mouth." This has led to some struggle in my own home because he convinced my TBM wife that since I don't believe fully, I should completely disassociate myself from the church; she doesn't even think I should attend church.
The arrogance of the statement, however, is quite striking. The biggest fraud? Not even close. I think that, on the fraud meter, it lies somewhere below Nigerian email scams in the number of people affected.
Who says MOrmonism is not black or white thinking?
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Delusion: a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.
Posted: 02 August 2007 06:53 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Man! Cool thread! I hope we get more responses. Totally intresting!
Okay-- so I was walking around the book store today and I was thinking about conference talks! Weird, huh? ANd I was thinking about the one that GBH did 2 years ago-- I think. The one about gambling. HE said something like
"A young man came to me and said "Why cant we gamble? If we spend th same to go to a movie-- what is the difference?"
And I told him "The difference is in a movie you get something for the money you are spending. With gambling you get nothing."
I thought this was soooo stupid! You get entertainment from a movie AND from gambling!!! What a weak argument! I think he should have said something like "Well-- when you put money into gambling you risk not just gaining entertainment-- but gaining an addiction that may take a lifeitme to overcome." Or even a "walk in holy places" type reason. But-- not "You get nothing from the money you spend on gambling."
I personally dont gamble ( except on LOVE-- and I WON!!! which is what I tell my husband..). But, my husband does once in a while and I jsut wanted GBH to have a good solid excuse for telling millions of people why gambling was not a good idea.
BTW-- I died a little bit reading the talk about the ironing machine. What a complete asshole of a man!!! ( the son and husband!----SHIT!!!)
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Posted: 02 August 2007 08:58 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Aurom M.D.
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Hey Bigwig -
In our darkest hours
We have all asked for some
Angel to come
Sprinkle his dust all around
But all our crying voices
They can't turn it around
You've had some crazy conversations of your own (Shins reference)
Anyway, I'm not old enough to have witnessed the "Little Factory" ... but I did enjoy a Monson one a few years back where he lectured the members of the church not to be racist. After they were TOLD to be racist less than thirty years ago. Right.
Posted: 02 August 2007 10:59 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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I was a stir-crazy missionary trying get through the last session of conference when some bumpkin 70, Rulon Craven I think it was, talked about how it had been "an wonderful conference." It struck me as sham sacred-speak, a lame attempt at sounding reverential. I spent the rest of conference mercilessly mocking the guy.
"I have to go take an marvelous poo."
"I tired of listening to an boring talk."
"I speak with an dignified frippery."
Posted: 02 August 2007 01:05 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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BigWig
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Koriwhore:
Who says MOrmonism is not black or white thinking?
OOPS! I meant to say mormonism allows NO middle ground. Sorry for the confusion.
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But you’ll find those lingering voices
Are just your ego’s attempt to make it all clean and nice
And make a moron out of you
Fighting in a Sack
Posted: 02 August 2007 01:21 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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BigWig
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snickersprincess:I jsut wanted GBH to have a good solid excuse for telling millions of people why gambling was not a good idea.
I felt the exact same way. In fact that talk along with Dallin Oaks' (non-conference) talk about singles not "hanging out" really shook my testimony. It just seemed like cranky old men enforcing their old fashioned opinions on millions of people. They never explain or justify, just "we don't do it."
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But you’ll find those lingering voices
Are just your ego’s attempt to make it all clean and nice
And make a moron out of you
Fighting in a Sack
Posted: 02 August 2007 03:52 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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Conference - let's see. I love Conference.
You can take a long nap even if you have insomnia because the droning lulls you to sleep.
You can take a nice long ride in the hills, where there is no radio reception, and actually feel an appreciation for nature and/or God.
You can take notes and see how many asinine comments can you find.
You can listen for irritating grammar. "An" instead of "a" and Monson with his "even". (If you re-read his comments this makes things really funny sometimes if you use "even" in the normal sense.)
You can watch with friends and keep score - who gets pissed and who goes on a guilt trip - it helps sort out who you can confide in.
You can actually go to conference if you're in Utah where you'll have an especially rich experience.
You can have the pleasure of being herded like cattle.
You can be accosted by Evangelicals who have nothing better to do than hate.
You can walk for miles in heels and get blisters because there is no parking available.
And, if you're really lucky, you can be soaked by rain and/or snow and sit with a huge congregation of soggy suits.
I always felt like I was listening to robots. They must practice together because they all seem to have the same sing-song delivery style.
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Posted: 02 August 2007 04:15 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
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Aurom M.D.:Anyway, I'm not old enough to have witnessed the "Little Factory" ... but I did enjoy a Monson one a few years back where he lectured the members of the church not to be racist. After they were TOLD to be racist less than thirty years ago. Right.
Oh, you reminded me of a gem from Alexander "B" Morrison (Sept. 2000 Ensign):
"How grateful I am that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has from its beginnings stood strongly against racism in any of its malignant manifestations."
And down the memory hole it goes!
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Posted: 02 August 2007 04:29 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
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Allegory
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Monama:
This wasn't a conference talk, but I went to hear an apostal speak in Logan. The jist of what I got from it was... men it is your responsibility to find a wife, but ladies don't expect a guy to like you if you look like death warmed over, put on some make-up! No wonder you're still single, you look like death. Add a little color to your cheeks and lips, then guys might want to approach you.
I was married at the time and went home wondering if my husband would leave me because I don't wear make-up.
I heard this same talk given in my singles ward in 2001.
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Posted: 02 August 2007 04:55 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
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BigWig:
The second awful talk is "Let Us Be Men" by D. Todd Christofferson (April 2007). I think he can explain it himself:
Years ago, when my brothers and I were boys, our mother had radical cancer surgery. She came very close to death. Much of the tissue in her neck and shoulder had to be removed, and for a long time it was very painful for her to use her right arm.
One morning about a year after the surgery, my father took Mother to an appliance store and asked the manager to show her how to use a machine he had for ironing clothes. The machine was called an Ironrite. It was operated from a chair by pressing pedals with one's knees to lower a padded roller against a heated metal surface and turn the roller, feeding in shirts, pants, dresses, and other articles. You can see that this would make ironing (of which there was a great deal in our family of five boys) much easier, especially for a woman with limited use of her arm. Mother was shocked when Dad told the manager they would buy the machine and then paid cash for it. Despite my father's good income as a veterinarian, Mother's surgery and medications had left them in a difficult financial situation.
On the way home, my mother was upset: "How can we afford it? Where did the money come from? How will we get along now?" Finally Dad told her that he had gone without lunches for nearly a year to save enough money. "Now when you iron," he said, "you won't have to stop and go into the bedroom and cry until the pain in your arm stops." She didn't know he knew about that. I was not aware of my father's sacrifice and act of love for my mother at the time, but now that I know, I say to myself, "There is a man."
It's not often that someone nicknamed MsGabbie is speechless, but I am truly speechless! I don't think I can adequately explain the disgust and revulsion I feel for this man!
<bigdeepbreath> To use his own words....
There is a man.....who proved what an un-compassionate, selfish ass he truly is...
There is a man....who proved how HIS preference for ironed clothes outweighed his wife's excruciating pain.....
There is a man....who just taught his sons how to treat their wives....
There is a man....who just taught his sons how to view their own mother.....
There is a man....who just taught his sons how to view all women as their personal servants....
There is a man....who had emotionally crushed his wife so completely that she expressed gratitude to her "master" instead of bashing his face in....
There is a man....who is a hideous example of what a man should be.
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Posted: 02 August 2007 05:11 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 17 ]
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livefromMO
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Wait... he went a YEAR without lunches to pay for the ironing machine? She was ironing for a YEAR in pain that drove her to tears? That makes me ill. I'm in my 20s, have 4 kids and have chronic joint pain. My husband would have watched me iron in pain one time before he took the chore over or lived without ironed clothes. Then maybe he would go without lunches to buy something to make the chore doable. But he wouldn't... he couldn't... watch me go a year in pain because of ironing.
I understand the story took place in another day and time but sharing it in 2007 as a sign of what a great masters... uh, I mean husbands that men can be is disgusting.
A friend of mine who left the church a few years ago said, "even if it's true, I can't raise my daughter in that way." That talk about ironing? Perfect example.
Posted: 02 August 2007 05:51 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 18 ]
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The PRofit
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BigWig:
Koriwhore:
Who says MOrmonism is not black or white thinking?
OOPS! I meant to say mormonism allows NO middle ground. Sorry for the confusion.
I figured that. I hope you didn't think I was taking a stab at you with that comment. I wasn't, I was taking a jab at the false dichotomy of black or white thinking displayed by Gordo the clown PRofit.
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Delusion: a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.
Posted: 02 August 2007 06:08 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 19 ]
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The PRofit
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BigWig:
What are the worst conference talks you've heard live?
What really convinced me that Gordo was an effing clown and no PRofit at all was the brainless talk he gave in conference in October 2001, right after 9-11. Where he expressed his concerns about the sad state of society. I thought he was going to say something, anything about 9-11, considering that it was after all the worst terrorist act ever carried out against innocent victims, it happened on US soil and it was motivated by religious fanatics.
Silly me, I thought a PRofit was supposed to PRophesize, or at least speculate on gawd's intent, since I believed the PRopoganda that HE was actually the mouthpiece of allmighty gawd on earth.
So what did the Great white Alpha Male in the sky reveal to Gordo the clown PRofit at such a critical juncture in history? What was his greatest concearn for humanity after he allowed 3,000 of his innoncent children to perish at the hands of religious fanatics?
As we stood on the threshold of a massive holy war that would cost thousands of more lives and hundreds of billions of dollars, according to Gordo the clown, gawd's greatest concern for mankind was that Mormon youngsters are wearing too many earings and tatoos.
WTF? Are you serious?
I can't even properly express how disillusioned I was after hearing that.
It became clear to me that the source I was looking to for enlightenment was actually a black hole, sucking everything down into the bottomless void, completely devoid of light.
Fortunately that epiphany compressed my beliefs down into the genesis of a completely new cosmology for me and my family.
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Posted: 02 August 2007 07:20 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 20 ]
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meinmachine
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Any talk ever given by Sing-Song Tom Monson!!!! AAARGH!!! The guy drives me nuts. He has the great reoccuring theme of caring for the old ladies! Geesh, he has some sort of obsession.
Many adore Tom Monson, he may be a nice guy, but a grown man being so sugary sweet is creepy.
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Posted: 02 August 2007 09:18 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 21 ]
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Melvyn Arnold from April 2004:
As a member of the branch presidency in Fortaleza, Brazil, Brother Marques with the other priesthood leaders developed a plan to reactivate those who were less active in his branch. One of those who was less active was a young man by the name of Fernando Araujo. Recently I spoke to Fernando, and he told me of his experience:
“I became involved in surfing competitions on Sunday mornings and stopped going to my Church meetings. One Sunday morning Brother Marques knocked on my door and asked my nonmember mother if he could talk to me. When she told him I was sleeping, he asked permission to wake me. He said to me, ‘Fernando, you are late for church!’ Not listening to my excuses, he took me to church.
“The next Sunday the same thing happened, so on the third Sunday I decided to leave early to avoid him. As I opened the gate I found him sitting on his car, reading the scriptures. When he saw me he said, ‘Good! You are up early. Today we will go and find another young man!’ I appealed to my agency, but he said, ‘We can talk about that later.’
“After eight Sundays I could not get rid of him, so I decided to sleep at a friend’s house. I was at the beach the next morning when I saw a man dressed in a suit and tie walking towards me. When I saw that it was Brother Marques, I ran into the water. All of a sudden, I felt someone’s hand on my shoulder. It was Brother Marques, in water up to his chest! He took me by the hand and said, ‘You are late! Let’s go.’ When I argued that I didn’t have any clothes to wear, he replied, ‘They are in the car.’
Posted: 02 August 2007 09:31 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 22 ]
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MsGabbie
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capt_jack:Melvyn Arnold from April 2004:
As a member of the branch presidency in Fortaleza, Brazil, Brother Marques with the other priesthood leaders developed a plan to reactivate those who were less active in his branch. One of those who was less active was a young man by the name of Fernando Araujo. Recently I spoke to Fernando, and he told me of his experience:
“I became involved in surfing competitions on Sunday mornings and stopped going to my Church meetings. One Sunday morning Brother Marques knocked on my door and asked my nonmember mother if he could talk to me. When she told him I was sleeping, he asked permission to wake me. He said to me, ‘Fernando, you are late for church!’ Not listening to my excuses, he took me to church.
“The next Sunday the same thing happened, so on the third Sunday I decided to leave early to avoid him. As I opened the gate I found him sitting on his car, reading the scriptures. When he saw me he said, ‘Good! You are up early. Today we will go and find another young man!’ I appealed to my agency, but he said, ‘We can talk about that later.’
“After eight Sundays I could not get rid of him, so I decided to sleep at a friend’s house. I was at the beach the next morning when I saw a man dressed in a suit and tie walking towards me. When I saw that it was Brother Marques, I ran into the water. All of a sudden, I felt someone’s hand on my shoulder. It was Brother Marques, in water up to his chest! He took me by the hand and said, ‘You are late! Let’s go.’ When I argued that I didn’t have any clothes to wear, he replied, ‘They are in the car.’
Sounds like nothing short of a restraining order would have stopped this man from stalking him, kidnapping him, holding him hostage and violating his free agency.
But then again, Mormons believe they are following a higher law....so that restraining order wouldn't have mattered one bit....
Nothing like standing up at a pulpit and mass producing an article for members to follow the example of creepy (not to mention criminal) behavior.
If I showed up repeatedly at your house, barged in, took your clothes, stalked not just you and your family but also friends and favorite hangouts, forced you into my car and took you someplace you didn't want to go - I would be in jail and forced into therapy and put on meds.
But if you are a church leader ...it's just all in a days work. Sick, sick sick!
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Posted: 02 August 2007 09:51 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 23 ]
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Being a nevermo in Utah, I have changed the channel as fast as I could when it was conference weekend. I have never understood how millions of people could listen to a bunch of old men drone on and on in monotone voices for days on end. However, after reading this thread I am going to have to start listening to conference weekend! It will give me lots of ammunition (sp?) for my darling inlaws!
I can't believe that guy would tell such a story about his mother, that is awful.
By the way after spending a life time in Utah, I finally get to move out of state!!! I am so excited to live in a society where I can actually participate and not be ostracized.
Posted: 02 August 2007 10:23 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 24 ]
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beenthere
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I was gonna say the one about the inactive/apostates being offended and how to get them back to church. I actually watched that conference 5 years after I left the church openly with my TBM family and not a one of them said anything to me, like, "Is that why you left?" I swear that offense is the #1 reason TBMs think we've left, and honestly, I bet that less then 5% of people who've left the church did so because they were offended (if even that). Being offended is a stupid reason to leave a religion.
And I bet the one about the church leader getting the inactive to church was finished with how grateful the inactive person was that he had done that. *rolls eyes*
I hate the voice that ALL people who speak in conference adopt. It's almost like a requirement if you're speaking in conference. I was reading something in the Ensign the other day and I could not even read the thing straight. My voice was turning it into the "conference voice" in my mind. It was horrid.
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I am the girl anachronism
Posted: 02 August 2007 10:31 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 25 ]
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ElGuapo
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jazzcat:
However, after reading this thread I am going to have to start listening to conference weekend! It will give me lots of ammunition (sp?) for my darling inlaws!
Hey jazzcat, congrats on the big move. I'm actually in Utah still and don't mind it, but maybe it's different for exmos and nevermos. Anyway, if it's ammo you want for the inlaws, there's nothing like quoting the prophet himself. This was Oct. 2006 priesthood session. I guess no one told Gordon that these days the women can read what was said afterward online.
I call your attention to another matter that gives me great concern. In revelation the Lord has mandated that this people get all the education they can. He has been very clear about this. But there is a troubling trend taking place. Elder Rolfe Kerr, Commissioner of Church Education, advises me that in the United States nearly 73 percent of young women graduate from high school, compared to 65 percent of young men. Young men are more likely to drop out of school than young women.
Approximately 61 percent of young men enroll in college immediately following high school, compared to 72 percent for young women.
In 1950, 70 percent of those enrolled in college were males, and 30 percent were females; by 2010 projections estimate 40 percent will be males, and 60 percent will be females.
Women have earned more bachelor's degrees than men every year since 1982 and more master's degrees since 1986.
It is plainly evident from these statistics that young women are exceeding young men in pursuing educational programs. And so I say to you young men, rise up and discipline yourself to take advantage of educational opportunities. Do you wish to marry a girl whose education has been far superior to your own? We speak of being "equally yoked." That applies, I think, to the matter of education.
ETA: I actually attended this session with dad and bros despite my utter lack of priesthood powers. Couldn't suppress my laughter at the "Do you wish to marry a girl ..." line though.
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Posted: 02 August 2007 10:38 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 26 ]
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beenthere
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ElGuapo:
And so I say to you young men, rise up and discipline yourself to take advantage of educational opportunities. Do you wish to marry a girl whose education has been far superior to your own? We speak of being "equally yoked." That applies, I think, to the matter of education.
Of course, if numbers were opposite, I guarantee he wouldn't be giving the same speech to the women.
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I am the girl anachronism
Posted: 02 August 2007 10:44 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 27 ]
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livefromMO
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I will take the parade of monotone old men over the primary presidency voice. My word. I don't even use such a condescending tone with my 2 year old. Do they have a special training meeting to learn to talk like that?
Kind of related -- I always liked hearing Sheri Dew speak because she sounded like a normal human being and not one of these wilting flowers. Then I started hearing rumors about what a b**ch she was at deseret book or wherever it was she worked. Looking back, I wonder if people were just reacting to her being a strong and outspoken woman with career ambitions instead of the gentle and demure mother that all Mormon women should strive for.
Posted: 02 August 2007 11:10 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 28 ]
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The PRofit
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livefromMO:I will take the parade of monotone old men over the primary presidency voice. My word. I don't even use such a condescending tone with my 2 year old. Do they have a special training meeting to learn to talk like that?
Kind of related -- I always liked hearing Sheri Dew speak because she sounded like a normal human being and not one of these wilting flowers. Then I started hearing rumors about what a b**ch she was at deseret book or wherever it was she worked. Looking back, I wonder if people were just reacting to her being a strong and outspoken woman with career ambitions instead of the gentle and demure mother that all Mormon women should strive for.
After I asked to be released from my Stake calling because I could no longer bear false testimony to people in good conscience, they assigned me to teach my youngest son's primary class, which was cool, we spent most of the time playing games and having fun and I didn't have to teach them anything I didn't feel like I could teach them in good conscience, but the opening excercises made me want to slit my wrists just so I could see some color. They were just unbearably boring and lame. My students thought so too and they would often ask to go be excused to go to the bathroom and who could blame them? So I'd let them.
Finally the Primary President said to me after class, "You have to stop letting your students go to the bathroom all the time."
I said, "What do you want me to do, let them sit there and pee their pants? Are you going to clean it up when they do?"
She said to me, "You need to grow up."
I was flabergasted. I said, "Maybe you need to grow up and start taking some responsibility for making these opening excercises more interesting and find ways to engage them so wouldn't be so anxious to go to the bathroom all the time. "
I not only grew up, I grew out, right out of the church.
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Delusion: a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.
Posted: 02 August 2007 11:12 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 29 ]
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BigWig
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jazzcat:
I am going to have to start listening to conference weekend! It will give me lots of ammunition (sp?) for my darling inlaws!
Too true. Just a warning, however: mormons worship Joseph Smith and "the bretheren" are the demigods in Ol' Joe's pantheon. They will likely construe any comments you make as "irreverant," "evil speaking of the Lord's annointed (forbidden in the temple ceremony)," or just plain antagonistic.
You'll get better mileage out of comments like:
"Husband, you'd better not let me cry for a year while I iron your clothes!"
or
"Wow, that's very interesting about the earrings. I really wish that he would give us some guidance and consolation following the terrorist attacks."
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Posted: 02 August 2007 11:17 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 30 ]
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Liberty Cap
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Koriwhore:
What really convinced me that Gordo was an effing clown and no PRofit at all was the brainless talk he gave in conference in October 2001, right after 9-11. Where he expressed his concerns about the sad state of society. I thought he was going to say something, anything about 9-11, considering that it was after all the worst terrorist act ever carried out against innocent victims, it happened on US soil and it was motivated by religious fanatics.
That's a good one. For me, it was the inane things he said a few weeks after the Iraq war started in 2003, twisting a basic principle in the book of mormon to say the opposite -- that an elective war posing no threat to America's survival was a righteous cause.
Posted: 02 August 2007 11:24 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 31 ]
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hypatia
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“…There is no true Latter-day Saint who would not rather bury a son or daughter than to have him or her lose his or her chastity — realizing that chastity is of more value than anything else in all the world.”–Heber J. Grant, quoted in General Conference 1980 and THE MIRACLE OF FORGIVENESS by Spencer W. Kimball
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Posted: 02 August 2007 11:54 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 32 ]
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The PRofit
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Pharmakos:
Koriwhore:
What really convinced me that Gordo was an effing clown and no PRofit at all was the brainless talk he gave in conference in October 2001, right after 9-11. Where he expressed his concerns about the sad state of society. I thought he was going to say something, anything about 9-11, considering that it was after all the worst terrorist act ever carried out against innocent victims, it happened on US soil and it was motivated by religious fanatics.
That's a good one. For me, it was the inane things he said a few weeks after the Iraq war started in 2003, twisting a basic principle in the book of mormon to say the opposite -- that an elective war posing no threat to America's survival was a righteous cause.
Why is it that those who esteem themselves to be LDS PRofits consistently manage to be the least enlightened, progressive and find themselves pulling up the rear on every major social movement?
Seems like the requirement for a prophet would be they actually had to prophesy something meaningful, communicate god's intent for his children and lead social change. So far the LDS so-called PRofit's have done nothing but retard social progress at every turn and attempt to silence any discourse on social change in order to maintain a society stuck in a 19th Century time capsul.
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Delusion: a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.
Posted: 02 August 2007 11:54 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 33 ]
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Red Pill
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hypatia:
“…There is no true Latter-day Saint who would not rather bury a son or daughter than to have him or her lose his or her chastity — realizing that chastity is of more value than anything else in all the world.”–Heber J. Grant, quoted in General Conference 1980 and THE MIRACLE OF FORGIVENESS by Spencer W. Kimball
Too bad ol' Joe didn't know that. Wait... how come he didn't know, being the restorer of the true church and all
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Posted: 03 August 2007 12:26 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 34 ]
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The PRofit
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Red Pill ( Helen Aarness):
hypatia:
“…There is no true Latter-day Saint who would not rather bury a son or daughter than to have him or her lose his or her chastity — realizing that chastity is of more value than anything else in all the world.”–Heber J. Grant, quoted in General Conference 1980 and THE MIRACLE OF FORGIVENESS by Spencer W. Kimball
Too bad ol' Joe didn't know that. Wait... how come he didn't know, being the restorer of the true church and all
How ironic that Spencer W. Kimball would use that quote in his book when his grandfather, Heber, not only offered up his wife, Violate for Joseph's Myth to violate, as a test of his gullibility, when Joseph's Myth passed on violating Violate, he told Heber he wasn't really interested in his wife, he was really after his 14 y.o. daughter Helen Mar (spencer's aunt) who would be his youngest documented conquest.
Joseph's Myth must have figured that once he had the big fish Heber hooked on the line, he might as well go for the gusto and tap his jail bait duaghter's ass.
So much for chastity Spencer, your Grandfather whored out his wife and daughter for a false hope of becoming a god.
Joseph's Myth could have sold refrigerators to eskimos.
It cost him nothing to promise spencer's grandpappy to let him tap his aunt's 14 y.o. ass. and then Spencer has the tumerity to hold Joseph's Myth up as some kind of a monument to morality after he took his 14 y.o. aunt's virginity and left her like a $5 whore?
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Delusion: a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.
Posted: 03 August 2007 01:16 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 35 ]
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mysticmamma55
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Great thread!! I TOTALLY agree with the droning voices. Never thought about them taking classes to talk like that. That is FUNNY.
I could not tell you who gave the talk. It was in the 90's I was watching spring conference. And the topic was keeping the sabath day holy. In the context of that talk it was boldly stated that going into the mountains on sunday was ireverent and not keeping the sabath holy.
WELL that got me riled up i still remember that because my argument was Gawd created the earth and the mountains for all of us to enjoy. AND being in the mountains was being a hell of a lot closer to GAWD than watching some dumb conferece talks on the tv for most of the sunday day.
Pretty obvious i had an argument with that one.
OH! and i always loved the confrence advice that mormons were not to go shopping on sunday.
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Posted: 03 August 2007 01:29 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 36 ]
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sica2298
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did anyone remember the talk given by Bastard KKK Packer this past conference? i dug into the Morg mags in the garage (we need them around to throw on the bookshelf when a TBM comes over)...one quote: "It is not so much what is heard in sermons but what is felt."
He also spoke i believe this conference and said, i can't find it but i swear i heard it, he spoke of "a very smart woman who was well educated and very intellectual. over time she gradually let her intellectual concerns take over and she crept into inactivity" then he went on to say that the problem was solved, apparently, by taking her to temple square to look the Christus and there she regained her testimony.
one thing that has always left a bad taste in my mouth is how like every general authority brags about how long they've been a general authority. go ahead, look at hold conference issues and you will see, "i've been a general authority for over 40 years!" well, sheez, give the man a peanut, aren't you all that and a bag of chips too!? i always thought that true ministers of God are humble...one church we visited, the pastor shook our hand and said, "hi, i'm mary." not mary k. wilson, ordained pastor of church of the savior...blah blah but just mary. contrast that with "Gordon B. Hinckley, President and Prophet of the Church...people saying how important and reverent is was to refer to prophets by their full name with middle initial. ..maybe it's cause i'm a very casual person who has never liked to be refered to as "Ms" or "Mrs"
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Posted: 03 August 2007 02:03 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 37 ]
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Susan D.
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MsGabbieu:
BigWig:
The second awful talk is "Let Us Be Men" by D. Todd Christofferson (April 2007). I think he can explain it himself:
Years ago, when my brothers and I were boys, our mother had radical cancer surgery. She came very close to death. Much of the tissue in her neck and shoulder had to be removed, and for a long time it was very painful for her to use her right arm.
One morning about a year after the surgery, my father took Mother to an appliance store and asked the manager to show her how to use a machine he had for ironing clothes. The machine was called an Ironrite. It was operated from a chair by pressing pedals with one's knees to lower a padded roller against a heated metal surface and turn the roller, feeding in shirts, pants, dresses, and other articles. You can see that this would make ironing (of which there was a great deal in our family of five boys) much easier, especially for a woman with limited use of her arm. Mother was shocked when Dad told the manager they would buy the machine and then paid cash for it. Despite my father's good income as a veterinarian, Mother's surgery and medications had left them in a difficult financial situation.
On the way home, my mother was upset: "How can we afford it? Where did the money come from? How will we get along now?" Finally Dad told her that he had gone without lunches for nearly a year to save enough money. "Now when you iron," he said, "you won't have to stop and go into the bedroom and cry until the pain in your arm stops." She didn't know he knew about that. I was not aware of my father's sacrifice and act of love for my mother at the time, but now that I know, I say to myself, "There is a man."
It's not often that someone nicknamed MsGabbie is speechless, but I am truly speechless! I don't think I can adequately explain the disgust and revulsion I feel for this man!
<bigdeepbreath> To use his own words....
There is a man.....who proved what an un-compassionate, selfish ass he truly is...
There is a man....who proved how HIS preference for ironed clothes outweighed his wife's excruciating pain.....
There is a man....who just taught his sons how to treat their wives....
There is a man....who just taught his sons how to view their own mother.....
There is a man....who just taught his sons how to view all women as their personal servants....
There is a man....who had emotionally crushed his wife so completely that she expressed gratitude to her "master" instead of bashing his face in....
There is a man....who is a hideous example of what a man should be.
I agree, Ms. Gabbie. How utterly cold and unfeeling. I think I would tell him to iron his own f*ing shirts. That or take them to the cleaners. Now why did that man not even consider learning how to iron his own shirts and teach his sons to iron theirs? These so-called "men" would have never made it in the military.
Posted: 03 August 2007 02:09 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 38 ]
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Susan D.
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The weirdest one I heard was the one where Richard G. Scott said that victims of sexual abuse must "take some responsibility" for their own abuse. I remember the huge crowds of NOW protesters over those remarks of his.
Posted: 03 August 2007 02:37 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 39 ]
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SuperFeet
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Koriwhore:
livefromMO:I will take the parade of monotone old men over the primary presidency voice. My word. I don't even use such a condescending tone with my 2 year old. Do they have a special training meeting to learn to talk like that?
Kind of related -- I always liked hearing Sheri Dew speak because she sounded like a normal human being and not one of these wilting flowers. Then I started hearing rumors about what a b**ch she was at deseret book or wherever it was she worked. Looking back, I wonder if people were just reacting to her being a strong and outspoken woman with career ambitions instead of the gentle and demure mother that all Mormon women should strive for.
After I asked to be released from my Stake calling because I could no longer bear false testimony to people in good conscience, they assigned me to teach my youngest son's primary class, which was cool, we spent most of the time playing games and having fun and I didn't have to teach them anything I didn't feel like I could teach them in good conscience, but the opening excercises made me want to slit my wrists just so I could see some color. They were just unbearably boring and lame. My students thought so too and they would often ask to go be excused to go to the bathroom and who could blame them? So I'd let them.
Finally the Primary President said to me after class, "You have to stop letting your students go to the bathroom all the time."
I said, "What do you want me to do, let them sit there and pee their pants? Are you going to clean it up when they do?"
She said to me, "You need to grow up."
I was flabergasted. I said, "Maybe you need to grow up and start taking some responsibility for making these opening excercises more interesting and find ways to engage them so wouldn't be so anxious to go to the bathroom all the time. "
I not only grew up, I grew out, right out of the church.
Love that story!
Posted: 03 August 2007 03:20 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 40 ]
sage
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A few years ago Jeffrey Holland gave one that is known as "A Prayer for the Children." I'm not sure but I think it was GC. He basically condemns parents who have doubts, act on those doubts and cause the family, including the children to drift into inactivity.
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The worst conference talk you ever heard live?
Posted: 03 August 2007 03:56 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 41 ]
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sica2298
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in Boyd KKK Packers talk "the spirit of the tabernacle" he states: "the Tabernacle stands in the world as one of the great centers of worthy music and culture...stand as standard of the Restoration...God bless this sacred building"
i think it's so arrogant, the tabernacle is a world center for culture and music?? not Carnegie Hall (shout out to my buddies in Pgh), not the Syndey Opera House, not Madison Square Garden ...
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Posted: 03 August 2007 05:06 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 42 ]
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Koriwhore:
Why is it that those who esteem themselves to be LDS PRofits consistently manage to be the least enlightened, progressive and find themselves pulling up the rear on every major social movement?
Seems like the requirement for a prophet would be they actually had to prophesy something meaningful, communicate god's intent for his children and lead social change. So far the LDS so-called PRofit's have done nothing but retard social progress at every turn and attempt to silence any discourse on social change in order to maintain a society stuck in a 19th Century time capsul.
Are you familiar with Jim Wallis? http://blog.beliefnet.com/godspolitics/
He identifies a lot of visionary people, MLK being an obvious example, as "prophets" -- people with the courage to resist the status quo and push for moral progress. I think that's a much better use of the word.
Posted: 03 August 2007 06:22 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 43 ]
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Aurom M.D.
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Susan D.:The weirdest one I heard was the one where Richard G. Scott said that victims of sexual abuse must "take some responsibility" for their own abuse. I remember the huge crowds of NOW protesters over those remarks of his.
Good HELL, are you serious?
I love this board becaues it makes me amazed, AMAZED, that I stayed in the church for as long as I did.
Posted: 03 August 2007 06:37 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 44 ]
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Wow, you guy's have done a great job naming off my least favorites.
The gambling one was the last one I ever saw in a priesthood session before I decided never to go back. Hinckley had never seemed like more of an ornery old man complaining about the world than he did at that moment. I had a lot on my mind that day and could have used some comfort from God, and what does the prophet give me? "Don't play online poker."
The talk Hinckley gave before the invasion of Iraq also made me shake my head. I was on my mission in Holland at the time, losing my faith. Never had Hinckley seemed like more of a PR representative or a politician trying to please everyone. His endorsement of the war was weak and lame. If you're going to take a stance, then take a goddamn stance.
Holland's "Prayer for the Children" also came while I was on my mission. It was the first time I'd heard an official declaration of the old "only-the-offended-or-sinners-leave-the-church" rhetoric since I'd lost my faith and started seriously considering leaving the church. I took it personally.
The "stop hanging out" talk came after I had already accepted my lack of belief and was trying to build up the guts to finally start changing my life into that of a non-Mormon. This talk led to an argument with one of my close friends which served as a catalyst to tell her about my disbelief. It was a big step.
In a way these talks might actually be some of my favorites, considering the role they played in my exit from the church.
Posted: 03 August 2007 06:51 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 45 ]
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Susan D.
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Aurom M.D.:
Susan D.:The weirdest one I heard was the one where Richard G. Scott said that victims of sexual abuse must "take some responsibility" for their own abuse. I remember the huge crowds of NOW protesters over those remarks of his.
Good HELL, are you serious?
I love this board becaues it makes me amazed, AMAZED, that I stayed in the church for as long as I did.
I know. I'm pretty sure you can still find it on Google.
This was said around 1992 as far as I can remember, just after I found out my children had been molested by the man to whom I had been sealed (I had left him already). Sickeningly, I stayed in too. I really thought I had misheard him. I just couldn't believe it.
Posted: 03 August 2007 06:54 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 46 ]
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livefromMO
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Susan D.:The weirdest one I heard was the one where Richard G. Scott said that victims of sexual abuse must "take some responsibility" for their own abuse. I remember the huge crowds of NOW protesters over those remarks of his.
I found the talk you are talking about and at first he talks about taking responsibility for healing and I agreed with him. Then he said the victim bears NO responsibility. Again, right there with him. Then he says this,
"The victim must do all in his or her power to stop the abuse. Most often, the victim is innocent because of being disabled by fear or the power or authority of the offender. At some point in time, however, the Lord may prompt a victim to recognize a degree of responsibility for abuse. Your priesthood leader will help assess your responsibility so that, if needed, it can be addressed. Otherwise the seeds of guilt will remain and sprout into bitter fruit. Yet no matter what degree of responsibility, from absolutely none to increasing consent, the healing power of the atonement of Jesus Christ can provide a complete cure."
When I thought it couldn't get worse, he refers to "increasing consent." OMG. Sometimes I just can't believe I ever believed this men to be inspired.
Here is the link to the talk if anyone wants context:
Edited because the first attempt at a link didn't work. Copy and paste: http://tinyurl.com/227fft
Posted: 03 August 2007 07:05 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 47 ]
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Susan D.
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Your link didn't work but it was published in the May 1992 Ensign, which can be found online.
The link to the talk is in the table of contents.
Posted: 03 August 2007 12:17 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 48 ]
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livefromMO:
"The victim must do all in his or her power to stop the abuse. Most often, the victim is innocent because of being disabled by fear or the power or authority of the offender. At some point in time, however, the Lord may prompt a victim to recognize a degree of responsibility for abuse. Your priesthood leader will help assess your responsibility so that, if needed, it can be addressed. Otherwise the seeds of guilt will remain and sprout into bitter fruit. Yet no matter what degree of responsibility, from absolutely none to increasing consent, the healing power of the atonement of Jesus Christ can provide a complete cure."
Aaaaand that's why I was disfellowshipped when I was 15. Increasing consent? What 15-year-old has the judgment and discernment to be able to give informed consent? There was no way possible I could have understood all the ramifications of "not fighting hard enough."
:: sigh ::
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Posted: 03 August 2007 04:33 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 49 ]
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The PRofit
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dogzilla:
Aaaaand that's why I was disfellowshipped when I was 15. Increasing consent? What 15-year-old has the judgment and discernment to be able to give informed consent? There was no way possible I could have understood all the ramifications of "not fighting hard enough."
:: sigh ::
Two of my best childhood friends now own really nice houses on really nice pieces of land, free and clear, thanks to LDS Inc's. tendency to blame the victim and protect the perpetrator. I guarantee you after a few more lawsuits hit them where it hurts, in the wallet, they won't be saying shit like "increasing consent" in reference to children victimized by the pedophiles they've allowed to prey upon the most vulnerable and innocent by failing to do the decent, lawfull, responsible and morally courageous thing and protect the innocent from sexual predators. But then again, when you don't have the moral courage to admit that the founder of your religion was a sexual predator, when that irrefutable fact has been well established, proven and well documented, you sure as hell won't have the moral courage to stand up for victims if it might paint the church in a bad light by exposing the fact that it's an abusive cult.
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Posted: 03 August 2007 06:48 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 50 ]
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He watched his wife iron and go into her bedroom and cry alone because of the pain? What kind of a-hole was he? The first time he knew it hurt her to iron, he should have picked up the iron and learned how to use it.
And she, being the dutiful little helpmeet and subservient, didn't even think to tell him it hurt too much to iron and would he please help her. After all, she had her place.
Posted: 03 August 2007 06:56 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 51 ]
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Dogzilla Joy
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I have three words for the guy who made his wife iron in pain: wash and wear.
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Posted: 03 August 2007 08:35 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 52 ]
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Red Pill
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dogzilla:
I have three words for the guy who made his wife iron in pain: wash and wear.
Hmmmm you are nicer than me. The 3 words I would have are "go to H---
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Posted: 03 August 2007 08:54 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 53 ]
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Susan D.
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magi:He watched his wife iron and go into her bedroom and cry alone because of the pain? What kind of a-hole was he? The first time he knew it hurt her to iron, he should have picked up the iron and learned how to use it.
And she, being the dutiful little helpmeet and subservient, didn't even think to tell him it hurt too much to iron and would he please help her. After all, she had her place.
Exactly! My husband does all the heavy housework for us. It works out beautifully and saves my back. Neither one of us irons.....
Posted: 03 August 2007 11:33 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 54 ]
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Banshee
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I still can't believe that a--hole that let his wife iron in pain for a whole year. That's mormon mentality for ya. Susan, we don't iron either, haha!!!
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Posted: 04 August 2007 03:57 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 55 ]
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Shimon
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Wow… you have already mentioned a few of my favorites. Here are a couple that stick out to me.
When I was in the MTC one of the seventies gave a GC talk and told us that we should say our private prayers in silence because if we spoke them out loud Satan could hear them and this would give him an inordinate amount of power over us. This really freaked me out. I was not the sanest person in the world at the time and the idea that the Devil was hanging out at my shoulder listening to my personal prayers did not help. I even went to lengths to mislead the Devil about what I was struggling with when I prayed out loud. Praying silently was a problem because I have ADHD and am highly internally distractible. Without any action to keep me rooted in what I was doing (such as speaking) I usually got hopelessly lost in my own thoughts while praying. It could take me a half hour or more to get through a simple bedtime prayer because I kept getting lost in my own thoughts. This left me feeling anxious and guilty a lot of the time. As that seems to be what missions are about, I suppose I was really par for the course.
Another talk that stands out to me was one by Elder Holland. He gave a GC talk several years ago about the importance of having apostles just as in days of old. During the talk he used a quote from Emerson. Having read some Emerson I just couldn’t believe that he had said what Elder Holland had quoted him a saying. I assumed it must have been taken out of context. When the Ensign came I looked up the reference. When I finally found the Quote in Emerson’s own writing it was a Frankenstein of a quote, cobbled together from across three pages of text. Holland had taken a bit here and a bit there and molded it into something entirely different from what Emerson had really said. And this from a former University President!
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Posted: 04 August 2007 05:27 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 56 ]
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capt_jack:Melvyn Arnold from April 2004:
As a member of the branch presidency in Fortaleza, Brazil, Brother Marques with the other priesthood leaders developed a plan to reactivate those who were less active in his branch. One of those who was less active was a young man by the name of Fernando Araujo. Recently I spoke to Fernando, and he told me of his experience:
“I became involved in surfing competitions on Sunday mornings and stopped going to my Church meetings. One Sunday morning Brother Marques knocked on my door and asked my nonmember mother if he could talk to me. When she told him I was sleeping, he asked permission to wake me. He said to me, ‘Fernando, you are late for church!’ Not listening to my excuses, he took me to church.
“The next Sunday the same thing happened, so on the third Sunday I decided to leave early to avoid him. As I opened the gate I found him sitting on his car, reading the scriptures. When he saw me he said, ‘Good! You are up early. Today we will go and find another young man!’ I appealed to my agency, but he said, ‘We can talk about that later.’
“After eight Sundays I could not get rid of him, so I decided to sleep at a friend’s house. I was at the beach the next morning when I saw a man dressed in a suit and tie walking towards me. When I saw that it was Brother Marques, I ran into the water. All of a sudden, I felt someone’s hand on my shoulder. It was Brother Marques, in water up to his chest! He took me by the hand and said, ‘You are late! Let’s go.’ When I argued that I didn’t have any clothes to wear, he replied, ‘They are in the car.’
This is something my step-father would do! My poor kids lived with this kind of shit for 6 months before I got us out of his home and on our own, they still try to do this kind of controling stuff with my kids. Makes me crazy!
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Posted: 04 August 2007 05:36 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 57 ]
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CottonJenny
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livefromMO:
Susan D.:The weirdest one I heard was the one where Richard G. Scott said that victims of sexual abuse must "take some responsibility" for their own abuse. I remember the huge crowds of NOW protesters over those remarks of his.
I found the talk you are talking about and at first he talks about taking responsibility for healing and I agreed with him. Then he said the victim bears NO responsibility. Again, right there with him. Then he says this,
"The victim must do all in his or her power to stop the abuse. Most often, the victim is innocent because of being disabled by fear or the power or authority of the offender. At some point in time, however, the Lord may prompt a victim to recognize a degree of responsibility for abuse. Your priesthood leader will help assess your responsibility so that, if needed, it can be addressed. Otherwise the seeds of guilt will remain and sprout into bitter fruit. Yet no matter what degree of responsibility, from absolutely none to increasing consent, the healing power of the atonement of Jesus Christ can provide a complete cure."
When I thought it couldn't get worse, he refers to "increasing consent." OMG. Sometimes I just can't believe I ever believed this men to be inspired.
Here is the link to the talk if anyone wants context:
Edited because the first attempt at a link didn't work. Copy and paste: http://tinyurl.com/227fft
I had never read this article and it may be a good thing I hadn't until now! I would have gone ape-sh*t! It does make sense as to why when I was raped in my late teen years by a RM, he came to me and told me I NEEDED TO REPENT FOR TEMPTING HIM!!!! yep! I tempted him at that damn fireside we went to! In my skirt past my knees and my loose fitting button up blouse. I hated him then, but now I just want to give the old GAs a piece of my mind about their advice!
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Posted: 05 August 2007 12:30 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 58 ]
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I April of 2006 Dallin Oaks quoted the following scripture:
2 Nephi 26:33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.
I wrote a letter asking him what meaning this verse had prior to 1978 for blacks and the priesthood. I also made him aware that I had been denied attendance at my son's temple wedding a few months previous. He responded but ignored the details of the question and acknowledged that we had different understandings of the gospel. I have written him twice and received a reply both times. He is very arrogant and evasive and will not answer the hard questions.
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Posted: 05 August 2007 07:00 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 59 ]
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Nogginus Skepticalus
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My wife does all the ironing in our house. She takes our shirts and slacks to the dry cleaners. She makes them look so good, all of us walk around looking mighty fine on account of her efforts. Of course, I help out too by picking the clothing up here and there.
If you skip lunch every week you save more or less about $5 to $8 bucks a day. That is more that enough money to buy into the dry cleaning bill at $4 per clothing item. Also, try wearing your nicer shirts twice before drycleaning them. It's possible... unless you don't shower often or are a natural sweathog B.O. factory.
Another Captain Obvious moment here is to take the damn clothes out of the damn dryer right after the dry cycle ends and fold them immediately. Amazingly, if you do this, no ironing is needed for most of the clothes.
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Posted: 05 August 2007 08:22 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 60 ]
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Susan D.
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nogginus skepticalus:
Another Captain Obvious moment here is to take the damn clothes out of the damn dryer right after the dry cycle ends and fold them immediately. Amazingly, if you do this, no ironing is needed for most of the clothes.
Noggin
Ding, ding, ding~give the man a prize!!!
This is exactly how we avoid ironing. On the very thin, muslin shirts I love I just hang them up damp, shape them on the hanger and they dry fine with no ironing. I sewed my kids' clothes for many years and had to iron then....it's something I won't do now!
Posted: 05 August 2007 09:33 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 61 ]
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Another way Mormonism makes me feel like a horrible housewife. If DH wants his clothes ironed, I tell him where I stored the iron. I very rarely iron clothes. It's not worth it to me. The wrinkles either fall out soon after putting them on, or else they're just going to get wrinkled when you wear them anyway.
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Posted: 05 August 2007 09:48 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 62 ]
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The talk that I always hated was given in the October 2002 Sunday Morning session by Margaret Nadauld entitled "Women of the Faith". This talk describes the attributes of the "woman of faith" including how incredibly virtuous she is, how she always does what the prophet tells her, how she is an amazing example to everyone around her, how fearless and courageous she is, etc. Essentially, everything that every LDS woman knows she is supposed to be but isn't.
I was at BYU at the time and watching this session with my roommate. We were both very believing at the time, but absolutely horrified at what we were hearing. We always referred to this talk as one of the worst that we had ever seen.
The icing on the cake was 30 seconds after the talk ended and a girl in our apartment complex stormed into our apartment to declare, "Talks like these are the reason that there is so much depression among LDS women". I couldn't have agreed more.
Posted: 06 August 2007 06:47 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 63 ]
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WAIT JUST A DAMN MINUTE HERE!!!!.....
Are you guys saying that you actually LISTENED and stayed AWAKE during General Conference? .........BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA........
Suckers.
PS: I loved the bit about the iron. I think I pee'd my pants a little when I was laughing out loud at that one. Fantastic.
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Posted: 06 August 2007 01:31 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 64 ]
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I dont know what general conference but, I just remember Gordon B. bragging about how he's traveled the world, and been everywhere, seen everything, yadda yadda, and I was active LDS at the time, and thinking to myself... uhhh, what the hell? Is this bragging hour? Where's the prophecy in that shit? And for the first time, I kind of wanted to smack him. cheese I always got annoyed with the female speakers, mainly because I cant STAND how they're so submissive to men. Sorry but I was NEVER able to swallow that one. Men can wash there own damn laundry. teehee.
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Romney and Mormonism on ABC’s Nightline
Posted: 13 August 2007 06:55 PM [ Ignore ]
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Crime Dog
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Nightline visited the Hill Cumorah Pageant and reported on it last week....I've never seen the pageant, and suppose I never will.
The story was all fluff, nothing of any real substance. I enjoyed the depiction of Moroni, holding the golden plates in the palm of his hand, with his arm exended straight out and apparently exerting very little effort. He must have been one bad ass dude, since those plates had to have weighed in the neighborhood of about 100 pounds.
The story ends with the couple hundred cast members sitting on what look like bleachers and having songs and prayer. The voice-over suggests this is the image that the church wishes to put forth. To me, that image looked curiously like a Branch Davidian or Jonestown compound, right before the fire or Kool Aid.
I'm guessing that those who were to be interviewed were hand picked by their leadership, as they all said pretty much the same thing: "Just pray about it. Then you'll know the truth."
So I did. God told me Mormonism is hogwash, and to have a beer.
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The only true currency in this bankrupt world if what we share with someone else when we’re uncool.
Posted: 13 August 2007 07:06 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Chad (Swedeboy) Spjut
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The story was all fluff, nothing of any real substance. I enjoyed the depiction of Moroni, holding the golden plates in the palm of his hand, with his arm exended straight out and apparently exerting very little effort. He must have been one bad ass dude, since those plates had to have weighed in the neighborhood of about 100 pounds.
Moroni, a Man Unlike Any Other.
“Yea, their runty legs did buckle.” 1 Lehi 29:13-56
Over the years, the stories told of the Golden Plates and the Hill Cumorah were always intriguing. The hill was supposedly filled with Nephite records (enough to fill several wagon loads) and of course the sword of Laban was there as well. The following is from Brigham Young as he recounts the experience of Cowdery and Smith:
"Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light, but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in corners and along the walls.
"The first time they went there the SWORD OF LABAN hung upon the wall; but when they went again it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the gold plates; it was unsheathed, and on it was written these words: 'This sword will never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ." I tell you this is coming not only from Oliver Cowdery, but others who were familiar with it, and who understood it... I take the liberty of referring to those things so they will not be forgotten and lost." (19 Journal of Discourses 38)
Now, if Moroni was the last surviving person of his race, and he was given the charge to finish the Book of Mormon and deposit the plates in a spot which the Lard commanded him, which just happened to be in upstate New York. And if the limited geography theory is correct, then not only did Moroni have to carry the very heavy Golden Plates to upstate New York, but he also had to carry the Liahona, the Sword of Laban and those wagon loads of Nephite records, all without the benefit of wagons or horses or oxen to pull this wagon train of Nephite treasures.
The first book of Lehi tells us of his struggles. Please cross reference with Zelph 3:29-85.
"Yea, I did use my mighty tapir and herd of llama to carry the sacred works of my people. I Moroni, being a man of large stature, not unlike Nephi of old, I nevertheless am unable to fulfill these mighty commands alone. And it came to pass, that many tapir perished under the exceedingly great weight of the sacred works of my people. Yea, their runty legs did buckle under the weight of so mighty a task. Yea verily despite the buckling of runty tapir legs, I know that God shall prepare a way for his commands to be fulfilled.
And it came to pass, that I did use the skins of the buckled tapir as sleds to tow the sacred works of my people by the power of the mighty llama of which I possessed great abundance. And it came to pass, that as I endeavored to coax my mighty llama herd to pull the sacred works of my people on the sled skins of the buckled tapir, I did beseech the Lord in prayer. "Oh Lord, maker of the mighty tapir which so valiantly carried my brethren into many battles, yea even unto their destruction! Oh great one who sawest fit to buckle the legs of my formerly mighty tapir whose skins are now used as sleds to be towed behind my herd of mighty llama, hear my prayer. Yea, my llama herd will not yield unto the enticing of my words and whip. Bless them from the chaffing of the cords, which bind them to the tapir skin sleds, which carry the sacred works of my people. Yea Lord, I know not what to do. How shall I fulfill the command of taking many heavy sacred works of my people, and deposit them in the enchanted hill which the gentiles will one day confuse as the place of the final battle of my people with the Lamanites?”
Unfortunately this is where the record ends. We may never know just how he did it. Regardless, Moroni was a man unlike any other. Yea verily and amen.
Signature
Überzeugungen sind oft die gefährlichsten Feinde der Wahrheit.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
[Certainty (that one is correct) is often the most dangerous enemy of the truth.]
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Posted: 13 August 2007 07:06 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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free thinker
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I spent a lot of time at the HCP during my mission. I was actually one of the full time missionaries that worked as crew to put the show on. I spent six weeks living at the hill and etc.
I'll never forget working in the Palmyra area and going into the home of a man who had been to the pageant for many years. Every year he would go and they would give him a Book of Mormon. He took us to a room and there on a shelf he had about fifteen Books of Mormon side by side. He was kinda proud of his little collection. I look back now and realize it was his way of saying " No Thanks" Kinda Funny actually.
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It is one’s willingness to become uncomfortable and face the fear that what we might uncover could rock the foundations of our world that will allow us to escape the bonds of Mormonism.
INTROSPECT
Posted: 13 August 2007 07:16 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Crime Dog
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Joined 2005-05-10
Chad (Swedeboy) Spjut:
The story was all fluff, nothing of any real substance. I enjoyed the depiction of Moroni, holding the golden plates in the palm of his hand, with his arm exended straight out and apparently exerting very little effort. He must have been one bad ass dude, since those plates had to have weighed in the neighborhood of about 100 pounds.
Moroni, a Man Unlike Any Other.
“Yea, their runty legs did buckle.” 1 Lehi 29:13-56
Over the years, the stories told of the Golden Plates and the Hill Cumorah were always intriguing. The hill was supposedly filled with Nephite records (enough to fill several wagon loads) and of course the sword of Laban was there as well. The following is from Brigham Young as he recounts the experience of Cowdery and Smith:
"Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light, but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in corners and along the walls.
"The first time they went there the SWORD OF LABAN hung upon the wall; but when they went again it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the gold plates; it was unsheathed, and on it was written these words: 'This sword will never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ." I tell you this is coming not only from Oliver Cowdery, but others who were familiar with it, and who understood it... I take the liberty of referring to those things so they will not be forgotten and lost." (19 Journal of Discourses 38)
Now, if Moroni was the last surviving person of his race, and he was given the charge to finish the Book of Mormon and deposit the plates in a spot which the Lard commanded him, which just happened to be in upstate New York. And if the limited geography theory is correct, then not only did Moroni have to carry the very heavy Golden Plates to upstate New York, but he also had to carry the Liahona, the Sword of Laban and those wagon loads of Nephite records, all without the benefit of wagons or horses or oxen to pull this wagon train of Nephite treasures.
The first book of Lehi tells us of his struggles. Please cross reference with Zelph 3:29-85.
"Yea, I did use my mighty tapir and herd of llama to carry the sacred works of my people. I Moroni, being a man of large stature, not unlike Nephi of old, I nevertheless am unable to fulfill these mighty commands alone. And it came to pass, that many tapir perished under the exceedingly great weight of the sacred works of my people. Yea, their runty legs did buckle under the weight of so mighty a task. Yea verily despite the buckling of runty tapir legs, I know that God shall prepare a way for his commands to be fulfilled.
And it came to pass, that I did use the skins of the buckled tapir as sleds to tow the sacred works of my people by the power of the mighty llama of which I possessed great abundance. And it came to pass, that as I endeavored to coax my mighty llama herd to pull the sacred works of my people on the sled skins of the buckled tapir, I did beseech the Lord in prayer. "Oh Lord, maker of the mighty tapir which so valiantly carried my brethren into many battles, yea even unto their destruction! Oh great one who sawest fit to buckle the legs of my formerly mighty tapir whose skins are now used as sleds to be towed behind my herd of mighty llama, hear my prayer. Yea, my llama herd will not yield unto the enticing of my words and whip. Bless them from the chaffing of the cords, which bind them to the tapir skin sleds, which carry the sacred works of my people. Yea Lord, I know not what to do. How shall I fulfill the command of taking many heavy sacred works of my people, and deposit them in the enchanted hill which the gentiles will one day confuse as the place of the final battle of my people with the Lamanites?”
Unfortunately this is where the record ends. We may never know just how he did it. Regardless, Moroni was a man unlike any other. Yea verily and amen.
And to think that all these years I have been laboring under the false assumption that Moroni used cureloms to haul all that crap!
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The only true currency in this bankrupt world if what we share with someone else when we’re uncool.
Posted: 13 August 2007 09:51 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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dogmom
Sr. Member
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Joined 2007-04-11
Crime Dog, I recently saw a blurb on tv about the pageant...I agree....flush....oops fluff....and of course everyone was handpicked...the church has to be careful about its image after all!
Think I will join you in that beer....I just remembered I have a 6 pack of bud light in the frig...i don't usually drink by myself...but today it just sounds good!
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Barb
Posted: 13 August 2007 10:06 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Dutch
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Verily I say unto you, thou shalt believeth in bovine excrement until the fulfillment of the latter day prophesies, namely, that the Angel Mitt shall walk among us declaring many beliefs. Some of the beliefs shall support the Great and Abominable Church, namely that of Josephs Myth, and some will come to believe only through the Peep Stone. Some will come to know it all as bovine excrement and shall turn to the Great Satan, postmormon.org.
Here's to the great Satan (raising a glass of whiskey).
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Doing stupid things faster and with more energy for slightly longer than Peter_Mary
Here’s to Hartlyn
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Posted: 13 August 2007 11:50 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
BishopRic
Sr. Member
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Joined 2007-07-14
Chad (Swedeboy) Spjut:
The story was all fluff, nothing of any real substance. I enjoyed the depiction of Moroni, holding the golden plates in the palm of his hand, with his arm exended straight out and apparently exerting very little effort. He must have been one bad ass dude, since those plates had to have weighed in the neighborhood of about 100 pounds.
Moroni, a Man Unlike Any Other.
“Yea, their runty legs did buckle.” 1 Lehi 29:13-56
Over the years, the stories told of the Golden Plates and the Hill Cumorah were always intriguing. The hill was supposedly filled with Nephite records (enough to fill several wagon loads) and of course the sword of Laban was there as well. The following is from Brigham Young as he recounts the experience of Cowdery and Smith:
"Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light, but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in corners and along the walls.
"The first time they went there the SWORD OF LABAN hung upon the wall; but when they went again it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the gold plates; it was unsheathed, and on it was written these words: 'This sword will never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ." I tell you this is coming not only from Oliver Cowdery, but others who were familiar with it, and who understood it... I take the liberty of referring to those things so they will not be forgotten and lost." (19 Journal of Discourses 38)
Now, if Moroni was the last surviving person of his race, and he was given the charge to finish the Book of Mormon and deposit the plates in a spot which the Lard commanded him, which just happened to be in upstate New York. And if the limited geography theory is correct, then not only did Moroni have to carry the very heavy Golden Plates to upstate New York, but he also had to carry the Liahona, the Sword of Laban and those wagon loads of Nephite records, all without the benefit of wagons or horses or oxen to pull this wagon train of Nephite treasures.
The first book of Lehi tells us of his struggles. Please cross reference with Zelph 3:29-85.
"Yea, I did use my mighty tapir and herd of llama to carry the sacred works of my people. I Moroni, being a man of large stature, not unlike Nephi of old, I nevertheless am unable to fulfill these mighty commands alone. And it came to pass, that many tapir perished under the exceedingly great weight of the sacred works of my people. Yea, their runty legs did buckle under the weight of so mighty a task. Yea verily despite the buckling of runty tapir legs, I know that God shall prepare a way for his commands to be fulfilled.
And it came to pass, that I did use the skins of the buckled tapir as sleds to tow the sacred works of my people by the power of the mighty llama of which I possessed great abundance. And it came to pass, that as I endeavored to coax my mighty llama herd to pull the sacred works of my people on the sled skins of the buckled tapir, I did beseech the Lord in prayer. "Oh Lord, maker of the mighty tapir which so valiantly carried my brethren into many battles, yea even unto their destruction! Oh great one who sawest fit to buckle the legs of my formerly mighty tapir whose skins are now used as sleds to be towed behind my herd of mighty llama, hear my prayer. Yea, my llama herd will not yield unto the enticing of my words and whip. Bless them from the chaffing of the cords, which bind them to the tapir skin sleds, which carry the sacred works of my people. Yea Lord, I know not what to do. How shall I fulfill the command of taking many heavy sacred works of my people, and deposit them in the enchanted hill which the gentiles will one day confuse as the place of the final battle of my people with the Lamanites?”
Unfortunately this is where the record ends. We may never know just how he did it. Regardless, Moroni was a man unlike any other. Yea verily and amen.
As the line from "When Harry met Sally" goes....
I'll have what he's having!
(actually, I think I will, quite soon!) Btw Chad, please forgive me for plagiarizing your sig line...you know, me and Joe, when we find a good quote, we copy it!
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Überzeugungen sind oft die gefährlichsten Feinde der Wahrheit.
[Certainty (that one is correct) is often the most dangerous enemy of the truth.]”
- Friedrich Nietzsche
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September Dawn….anyone planning on seeing it?
Posted: 22 August 2007 05:34 AM [ Ignore ]
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Wilma Fingerdoo
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It really doesn't look that interesting to me, but the fact that it has pissed off the nutty segment of the LDS church and all their talk of boycotting it has energized me to go and see it. On top of that I will probably buy it for my personal library and place in next to my Michael Moore documentaries....just to give the TBM inlaws something to condemn me for.
Posted: 22 August 2007 07:44 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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mystrongtower
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I have a date with an ex mo gal friend of mine, to see it opening week. I have read two incredible stories about the incident and the reason the LDS church is so pissed off is it is the truth about BYoung and the Danites and that is a subject matter they like to prevent members from every learning the truth about! If you have not already done so, read some real history books about the early days then you will ask yourself why do mormons celebrate the pioneers> they were almost all polygamists and some were murderes and thiefs. No one would attend and tith to the LDS if they knew the real truth of these important church leaders, would they> I would hope not!
Posted: 22 August 2007 09:14 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Jethro
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Yeah a group of us exmos in Portland are seeing it opening night. This is really a fascinating and apalling episode in mormon history. Don't believe what the church says, we can be sure of more details than they claim.
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Posted: 22 August 2007 01:34 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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bow_your_head&say_no
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The Mountain Meadows Massacre, by Juanita Brooks was one of the first "non-sanctioned" books I read and I thought Ms Brooks did an excellent job of painting the history and mood of the early mormon settlers. It's funny, as a teenager it was also one of the first things I heard about that the church was trying to keep hush-hush. There's a lot that is still uncertain; did BY order it (with a wink and a nod), or did the SoUT "saints" just work themselves into a frenzy? Even Brooks couldn't find enough evidence to be certain. I personally think that BY would have been happy if the Indians had done it, but said, "oh $hit" when he heard how it played out. With Buchanan's army on the doorstep, it's not the kind of news you want getting out. I'm very interested in seeing how they handle it in the movie. I'll be there.
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Posted: 22 August 2007 01:57 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Red Pill
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Wilma Fingerdoo:It really doesn't look that interesting to me, but the fact that it has pissed off the nutty segment of the LDS church and all their talk of boycotting it has energized me to go and see it. On top of that I will probably buy it for my personal library and place in next to my Michael Moore documentaries....just to give the TBM inlaws something to condemn me for.
I have someone trying to find out when/where it is playing in Las Vegas- once I know I will post it to the chapter blog to try to get a group together to go.
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Posted: 22 August 2007 06:15 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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dave (e_nomo)
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This article about the movie and the history behind it ("Fanatics and a forgotten massacre") was in Sunday's LA Times.
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Posted: 22 August 2007 08:41 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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beenthere
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"September Dawn" -It's about the Mountain Meadows Massacre. According to Scott Duthie, who is the producer, "These theater bookings always happen at the last minute and are difficult to track, but I can tell you that the film will be playing…in Utah, our confirmed theater is Trolley Square mall in Salt Lake City."
So we don't know if there will be other theaters showing it, but Trolley Square just today put out the times of 7:45 pm and 10:00 pm (plus 3 daytime showings) starting on Friday, Aug. 24th. http://www.regencymovies.com/dateDetail.php?theaterId=12&date=2007-08-24 After discussing which time, we decided on 10:00 pm so people will have more time to get home from work, do wedding receptions and whatever else. Since 10:00 p.m. is so late, we are moving everything back an hour, so Gilgal is at 6:30, dinner at 8:00, movie at 10:00. Please see more details on Fri. 24th listing.
Aug 24, Fri, 6:30 pm- SLC "SEPTEMBER DAWN" Food-n-Film, at Trolley Square, 602 E. 500 South, SLC. First we'll park at Trolley Square, meet in the northeast corner of the parking lot, and walk the block to Gilgal Garden http://www.gilgalgarden.org/index.htm with its Joseph Smith sphinx. Then we'll walk back and meet at 8:00 pm for dinner at Desert Edge, 273 Trolley Square. Lastly, we'll attend the 10:00 p.m. showing of "September Dawn" at Trolley Square Cinemas. You're welcome to do all or part. Although not required, it would be helpful if the restaurant had an idea of how many are coming, so perhaps you'd be kind enough to send how many to .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
For those who missed it on the other thread. I believe DH and I are going.
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Posted: 23 August 2007 12:39 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Oorloghondje
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Please Help!
I really need your help on this one. I heard today from an LDS institute professor that they might not be showing "September Dawn" in Pocatello, ID because it does not construe an "unbiased" version of the events at MMM.
Of course, I need to corroborate this story. I am planning on going to the movie theaters and talking to the managers to figure out exactly whether or not they are not bringing it here.
It that's true then my conversation today may have indeed been very fortuitous. With Sept. 11 so far away, I believe we have plenty of time to launch a massive stink about them not showing this movie here in Pocatello. I'm thinking of using the local newspaper, the local news, and the annals published by the university here.
Do anyone else have any ideas? If this is true then I think we can blow this whole thing wide open!
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Posted: 23 August 2007 04:23 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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EscapedConvict
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It might also be worth contacting regional and national management for large chain theaters such a Cinemark, UA, or Carmike and ask why a national release film is not being shown in your market. An email campaign to those decision makers could likely convince them that indeed there are tickets to be sold there.
Worst thing they'll do is ignore it.
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‹‹ Anybody willing to try this experiment? To find where September Dawn is playing, here is a site... ››
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UPDATE on Seminary Problems
by Edmond Dantès
Just when things start to go well.......
by finex
Wine was different in Jesus time
by finex
Depression After Resignation
by finex
Church asks activist group to reconsider plans to protest GC
by Brad (ZeeZrom)
"Katie Finds a Better Way": A Story for the "Friend" and Musicalkate (New Link)
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Spin off Post "Cleaning House" - Genealogy
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I finally bumped into some Mormon missionaries!
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Mormon Church sending people DNA test kits but refusing to comment on results?
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Couldn't a real prophet find that plane?
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I need help more than LDS corp.
by victim
Mormon kitsch
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A Daring Statement by an 8-year-old
by haylee
This is Hard
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http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/2634/
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