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Posted: 20 April 2007 09:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]   

   
 
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hotrod:
Joseph had made some outrageous promises to the Saints regarding Missouri, the land of their inheritance.  When it seemed improbable that those promises could be fulfilled Joseph needed a scapegoat.  Could he blame the Missourians?  No!  If the Missourians were the fault of the failure to establish Zion surely the Lord would sweep them aside so the faithful saints could establish their holy city.  So, who are you going to blame?  Why the saints themselves of course.  That is the only explanation they could really accept.  Obviously, they knew they had commited some transgressions.  Joseph told them they were being chastened and tried, and that eventually Zion would be established.
 
In every instance in which Smith’s Missouri prophecy failed, he blamed it on the saints’ transgressions (jarrings, contentions, envyings, strifes, lustful and covetous desires, not imparting of their substance among their poor).  Hmmm……is it just me?… why doesn’t this litany of sins seem incongruent with the actual reasons for the saints’ problems. 

I totally agree with you hotrod on this point.  Couldn’t blame the Lord or Smith…would be false prophecy.  Can’t blame the Missourians… would undermine revelation.  Of course…. gotta blame the saints.  Any other explanation would undermine Smith’s control. 
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Why Were Mormons Driven From State to State  
Posted: 20 April 2007 10:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]   

   
 
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dave (e_nomo)
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Tapir Whisperer:

hotrod:
Joseph had made some outrageous promises to the Saints regarding Missouri, the land of their inheritance.  When it seemed improbable that those promises could be fulfilled Joseph needed a scapegoat.  Could he blame the Missourians?  No!  If the Missourians were the fault of the failure to establish Zion surely the Lord would sweep them aside so the faithful saints could establish their holy city.  So, who are you going to blame?  Why the saints themselves of course.  That is the only explanation they could really accept.  Obviously, they knew they had commited some transgressions.  Joseph told them they were being chastened and tried, and that eventually Zion would be established.
 
In every instance in which Smith’s Missouri prophecy failed, he blamed it on the saints’ transgressions (jarrings, contentions, envyings, strifes, lustful and covetous desires, not imparting of their substance among their poor).  Hmmm……is it just me?… why doesn’t this litany of sins seem incongruent with the actual reasons for the saints’ problems. 
 
I totally agree with you hotrod on this point.  Couldn’t blame the Lord or Smith…would be false prophecy.  Can’t blame the Missourians… would undermine revelation.  Of course…. gotta blame the saints.  Any other explanation would undermine Smith’s control.  



So, if I'm getting this right, what you guys are saying is that when the church teaches that the saints were driven out due to religious persecution, they are directly contradicting the word of God as revealed by the prophet, Joseph Smith?  
 
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Posted: 20 April 2007 11:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]   

   
 
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elder_nomo:
So, if I'm getting this right, what you guys are saying is that when the church teaches that the saints were driven out due to religious persecution, they are directly contradicting the word of God as revealed by the prophet, Joseph Smith? 

::puts on church hat::
Don't see a contradiction mate. The Lord suffered religious persecution to afflict the saints in consequence of polluting their inheritance.



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Posted: 20 April 2007 11:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]   

   
 
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Tapir Whisperer:
elder_nomo:
So, if I'm getting this right, what you guys are saying is that when the church teaches that the saints were driven out due to religious persecution, they are directly contradicting the word of God as revealed by the prophet, Joseph Smith? 
 
::puts on church hat::
Don't see a contradiction mate. The Lord suffered religious persecution to afflict the saints in consequence of polluting their inheritance.






D'oh!  Of course! 
::dusts off church hat to try it on, but chokes on the dust cloud stirred up::
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Posted: 21 April 2007 01:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]   

   
 
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elder_nomo:
D'oh!  Of course!  ::dusts off church hat to try it on, but chokes on the dust cloud stirred up::
 

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Posted: 21 April 2007 07:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]   

   
 
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Tapir Whisperer:
 
I totally agree with you hotrod on this point.  Couldn’t blame the Lord or Smith…would be false prophecy.  Can’t blame the Missourians… would undermine revelation.  Of course…. gotta blame the saints.  Any other explanation would undermine Smith’s control.  



 
What control did Smith have over the early saints? Many of the saints to my knowledge joined the lds church not because of Joseph Smith but because they believe in the restoration especially those saints who were baptised in distant lands. Joseph was just an added bonus. Joseph Smith was also a 'rough stone rolling' and his rough stone personality could be a turn off for some who would consider a prophet to be more pious in temperment. Joseph may have been charismatic but he definitely had his imperfections for all to see. Maybe you are overestimating the draw that Joseph had among the early saints. The key was in the restoration and in the message.


   


Posted: 21 April 2007 08:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]   

   
 
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Invisible Man:
 
Perhaps my overall point is: What you may see as us taking things too far in blaming the Saints may be just us focusing in on their potential culpabilities. I think most of us recognize that the surrounding non-Mormons had plenty of culpability of their own. However, it is always good to have folks such as you come here and remind us not to place too much blame on the Saints. Certainly there is plenty of blame to go around.
 



History is interesting and the historian can have a good time in second guessing why events happened the way they did. LDS history is no different. The more anti-lds wing of cyberworld seems to be awash in blatant accusations against the lds. This is one-sided. The lds can make a great case for being treating unfairly because they were treated unfairly. The unfairness was so extreme that there can be no defense in the abuse that they received. To argue culpability becomes moot.
 
You have a somewhat balanced viewpoint in your interpretation of the events. The thread has become more civilized with its interpretation of the events.


   


Posted: 21 April 2007 02:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]   

   
 
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The Mormons were treated the way they were not because of religious persecution but because of their own practices. Smith had to flee Kirtland because of his failed banking activities. It was best to leave NY because the people there knew he was a money-digger and glass looker and because he was a known convicted con-man.
 
The Saints had to leave Missouri because of the way they treated the "gentiles" (like Mormons are really Jews and can claim other people are gentiles).
 
The Saints had to leave Nauvoo because of the antics of Smith.
 
 Smith, the Mormon leadership under him and their staunchest follwers brought the problems on themselves.
 
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Posted: 21 April 2007 06:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]   

   
 
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Hello.  I have thought the information in this thread has been interesting.  Greetings to those I have not yet met.  I thought I would share a few thoughts concerning this matter.  I am not a strong hitorian, rather I am more versed in political science.  Much of the historical signficance from a political perspective might add some bonus thoughts on the matter of why Mormons were driven from state to state.  I am not claiming that my thoughts on the matter are true, but simply have seen some very strong aspects of American politics of the time involved in the history of the saints.
 
To begin, I  believe many people have been trying to show that "religious persecution" was not the primary reason for the seeming hatred of the Mormons by many wherever they went.  I agree with this idea, at least in as much that religious persecution was not the primary motive.  Unlike the history of Europe, religion has never played the balance of power game from a political perspective in the United States, at least not throughout most of its history (some accuse the Christian-right of today for playing this game).  In fact, the American menality was based strongly on the concept of "freedom of religion," an ideal to which most people have agreed in basic principle.  American mentality is less likely to drive individuals to persecute another group because of their religious beliefs.  Even the most fundamentalist groups have been content in large part to simply believe that they are right, others are wrong, that they are going to heaven and the wrong party to hell.  It is not in their nature to become militant in these beliefs.
 
That being said, the major polarizing factor that has led to violence in American culture time and again is different concepts of social issues.  Today's examples would be issues such as abortion, same-sex marriage, stem-cell research, etc.  The hot-button topics if you will.  Since these types of issues do not fit neatly into black and white catagories, the "Jacksonian" portion of America (I will explain Jacksonianism in a moment for those who are not familiar with it) has then used religion as a secondary justification for their views.
 
In the time of the early church, two major political factors had very strong influences on the decisions of others.  #1 was the hot-button topic of slavery.  Consider all of today's hot-button topics, abortion, same-sex marriage, stem-cell research, and then throw in the war in Iraq, global warming, prayer in schools, evolution, etc. and multiply it all by ten.  This was an issue about which many people were so passionate, it led to the most deadly war in American history.  Both the abolishionists and slave-owners used religion time and again to justify their positions.
 
The #2 factor, which I mentioned earlier, was the rise of a new wave of political throught, Jacksonianism.  Earlier, I noticed the quote in a post:
 

hotrod:
A very good book on the Nauvoo period is Cultures in Conflict: A Documentary History of the Mormon War in Illinois by John E. Hallwas and Roger D. Launis.  The documents vividly describe the conflict created by "...an ambitious theocracy that asserted itself within a Jacksonian social environment deeply devoted to democracy." 



 
Thank you hotrod for that post.  Jacksonianism is generally used in foreign policy language, it refers to what I can best describe as "redneck America."  It comes from the style of leadership embodied by the 7th American President, Andrew Jackson, who was a poor farm boy from Tennessee who rose in stature to become president.  His first fame came in the war of 1812, when his army of 2,000 or so famously slaughtered a retreating British battallion of about 30-50 men (estimates vary) in the Battle of New Orleans.  Also, it should be noted that a peace treaty had been already signed with England a few days previous to the battle, though there was no way for Jackson's men to know this.  The attitude of Jacksonianism is largely based on how you handle problems.  You go in there, take care of business, when using the military go in there full-steam ahead and solve the problem.  Jackson would later do this very thing when he invaded Florida, executed two British nationals for treason without giving them a trial, and had the American government turn the other cheek.  America squatted on the Floridas, and eventually, a very politically and economically weak Spain forfeited Florida to the Americans.   This history has little to do with Mormonism directly, but it started a new political wave which began to sweep through the US, especially in the west, such as Missouri, Illinois, Tennessee, and Kentucky.  The Jacksonians are concerned with their honor, and feel it is their duty to protect themselves from anybody who compromises that honor.
 
The Mormons then found themselves in a very dangerous and tense political environment in one of the most dangerous parts of the country at that time.  They were basically a large immigrant group, moving as a nation of people from state to state.  Also of note, the political structure of the US at the time was very different than today, for those who may not be aware.  State powers were in excess of Federal powers.  Real national power lay with congress, and not the President.  State sovereignty was more acute in this period than any other time in American history.
 
So, when a large group of immigrants move into a state whose political tensions are high over the most divided political issue in history, and when the mentality of the people is deeply rooted in this Jacksonian attitude of "don't tread on me!" You've got a recipie for disaster as it is.  The Mormons were seen by many as abolishionists and by others as slave-supporters, largely due to the fact that this wasn't a major issue of concern for the Mormons like it was in society at large.  Due to the lack of clear understanding of how the Mormons viewed slavery, society was automatically suspicious of them.
 
Granted, there were many who were upset with Joseph Smith or other church members for various reasons, either money-related, or tied to other occurances.  These were largely on the personal level.  Rumors of these occurances undoubtedly spread to others, many of whom probably knew nothing of Joseph Smith or any Mormon leaders at the time, other than what they heard through rumor.  These factors added together, and many felt the Mormons were a threat that had to go.  Though many would have been content with this evidence as reason for driving them out of the state, others sought further justification.  Here is where the idea of religious persecution finally came in.  For many, the idea of the Mormons practicing a new and different religion was that justification.  Had the political climate been more neutralized and calm at the time, many undoubtedly would have thought the Mormons were crazy or strange, but wouldn't have used violence to repel them from their homes, at least not on a wide-scale basis.  But, religion became a justification for their actions.  It was something that helped further convince others that the Mormons had to go.
 
These are just some thoughts I had which you may find interesting and will hopefully give you some new aspects to consider.
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Posted: 21 April 2007 07:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]   

   
 
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These are just some thoughts I had which you may find interesting and will hopefully give you some new aspects to consider
.
 
 
 
 
Ambassador
 
 
Thanks for that synopsis. I enjoyed reading it and it is definately well stated and well researched. I always thought Jackson's nickname  " Ole Hickory" was a good one. I dont know it's genesis but I think it definately fit him.
 
I do think there is one thing worth mentioning that no one has yet brought up. In every instance the Saints were initially welcomed warmly. There is something to be said for that.
 
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Posted: 21 April 2007 07:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]   

   
 
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If a group of religious zealots moved into your county and started to become the majority and they intimidated non-believers, manipulated the legal system in their favour and stole money where they could would you begin to fear them? Would you take up arms against them if they threatened you? Would you go to the state and ask for help? Or would you quickly convert to the new religion to save your skin and your property? I suspect if you are made of sterner stuff you might do something to protect your interests. As we read the history of Mormonism we cannot help but become suspicious that those who were "persecuting" the Mormons may have been acting out of their own selfish desire to avoid death, loss of liberty and or property.
 
Let's never let the facts get in the way of a good story, and since Mormon's wrote their own history they could tell it as they wished. There were other witnesses to the events and their version is pretty interesting.
 
I am sure none of the original founding con-men hought the rest of the world would catch up to the lies of Mormonism. What were the chances that people could look up the conviction record of Joseph Smith in New York? Who would know about the dealings of J.S. is Illinois? How could the past in Illinois, Ohio and New York ever really be known to the Saints way out in Utah? How could anyone prove one way or another if the Book of Abraham as translated by JS was a fraud? Who could ever prove that Lamanite DNA is not Hebrew in origin? I am sure JS and BY felt pretty safe in their lies. They didn't worry about future generations finding out the truth. Why should they? They got the $ the babes and the power!!!!! Woo Hoo!
 
I feel sorry for present day Mormons. They inherit the lies and somehow must reconcile it to the truth is self-evident to any who care to look at it with any degree of objectivity.
 
Mormon's today are truly a special generation. Either they have to be so immersed in magical thinking that any convoluted tale without any evidence can be believed or they are so courageous they can examine their own beliefs objectively and then stand by the truth as it is discovered. Either way they are special.
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Posted: 21 April 2007 07:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]   

   
 
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Invisible Man:
What control did Smith have over the early saints?  Many of the saints to my knowledge joined the lds church not because of Joseph Smith but because they believe in the restoration especially those saints who were baptised in distant lands. Joseph was just an added bonus. Joseph Smith was also a 'rough stone rolling' and his rough stone personality could be a turn off for some who would consider a prophet to be more pious in temperment. Joseph may have been charismatic but he definitely had his imperfections for all to see. Maybe you are overestimating the draw that Joseph had among the early saints. The key was in the restoration and in the message.


IMHO, you’re understating Smith’s control influence.  The ‘rough stone rolling’ argument is also a red herring.  You seem to be missing the point.  This is not about Smith’s imperfections. 

Indeed, faith in the message of the restoration was the key attraction.  But faith in the restoration and Smith’s revelations rested principally in one’s faith in Smith as God’s oracle on earth.  To the extent the saints lost faith in Smith, they lost faith in his revelations and the restoration. I would characterize that as Smith loosing control influence.   Smith was no dummy and therefore received enlightenment from the Lord to explain justify revelations' failure…..a pattern that was repeated again and again.

It's no different today.  One’s faith in Smith determines one’s faith in the restoration. 
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Posted: 21 April 2007 07:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]   

   
 
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free thinker:
 
I do think there is one thing worth mentioning that no one has yet brought up. In every instance the Saints were initially welcomed warmly. There is something to be said for that.
 
ft



 
This is a very excellent point, thank you for bringing it up.  One very possible explanation for their initial warm welcome fits into my ideas of the political influences.  People weren't concerned so much with the Mormons' strange religious practices, but rather, when this new group of people came into their state, at first they (non-Mormon citizens of the state and local politicans) were likely optomistic that they would have a whole new constituency to back their political views on slavery.  This probably looked like politicians vying for votes today, though we usually don't have entire new communities suddenly moving into a state these days.  However, once the ambiguous nature of church members concerning the issue dragged on, perhaps the threat, coupled with the rumors, and then justified on the base of religion, led to the ultimate results.  Then again, hard to say today just how everybody felt.
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Posted: 21 April 2007 08:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]   

   
 
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In fairness, the church seems to be making some progress in trying to educate their members with a more balanced history with respect to their religious persecutions.

When I was last teaching the D&C in the Gospel Doctrine class in about 1998 (not in Utah), the church provided a supplementary manual that explained many of social historical factors that underpinned the persecutions in Missouri.  Using this with my own historical research, I found the class discussions to be engaging and most members to be sympathetic and reasonably informed.

However, my criticism is that the church’s public PR machine appears to perpetuate the ‘innocent victim’ image.

Ambassador & Free Thinker:
I appreciated your inputs and you’re making some excellent points. With respect to your last point of discussion, perhaps Grape_Nephi’s flow chart needs a tweak:
Set up shop
locals embrace saints warmly
get in trouble
move away from the trouble
Go to step 1
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Posted: 22 April 2007 05:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]   

   
 
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Invisible Man:
The unfairness was so extreme that there can be no defense in the abuse that they received. To argue culpability becomes moot.

Here's where I think the value of determining culpability lies:

I think to most postmormons the idea of who should be blamed for what atrocity is a moot point from an historical perspective. Yes, without a doubt, early Latter-day Saints should have been treated much better. But, what I think the real (often unacknowledged) problem is, is that the Church's PR machine is slanted so far one way, that studying the actual events gives us all an insight into the lengths that the Church's PR machine will go to put a positive spin on LDS history.

So, our study of this matter really has little to do with whether or not the Saints deserved the treatment they got (they didn't!), and more to do with the lack of truth we've been fed while growing up in the Church.

I think many of us tend to forget this point, unfortunately -- and I'm speaking for myself on this, as well. We get so focused on how the Saints contributed to their own trials that we forget the original reason that we were studying the subject in the first place! The reason the subject captured our attention in the first place is that the historical reality was so different from the high-gloss pablum that we read about in the glossy church magazines that we couldn't help but focus on these issues. It's such a glaring bit of evidence that the Church manipulates its history, that it's hard not to get somewhat miffed.

Unfortunately, I think that our disgust at the Church's PR machine often gets misplaced and gets focused on the subject we're studying -- in this case, to the early Saints. As a group we probably ought to start being aware of this, and acknowledge that the early Saints didn't deserve what they got, but neither do we deserve to be misinformed and manipulated by the Correlation Dept.

So, I, for one, am going to try to learn from this exchange. I'll try to acknowledge what I'm really irritated at, which is not the early Saints, but the current LDS leadership.

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Posted: 22 April 2007 05:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]   

   
 
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meinmachine:
If a group of religious zealots moved into your county and started to become the majority and they intimidated non-believers, manipulated the legal system in their favour and stole money where they could would you begin to fear them? Would you take up arms against them if they threatened you? Would you go to the state and ask for help? Or would you quickly convert to the new religion to save your skin and your property? I suspect if you are made of sterner stuff you might do something to protect your interests.



 
This actually occured here when I was in HS by the Raj Neeshies.  They were religious zealots that bought a HUGE piece of property and followers flew in from all over the world to their commune.  People actually did give up all their property, even in this area to join the group.  When the raj neeshies began to come against laws of the state and county about land laws etc, they began making death threats against the Governor, the attorney general and they poisoned salad bars in restaurants with salmonella, trying to kill local people.  It was actually scarry, every time the Baj Wan gave a new diatribe against the people in our state.  People were ready to take up arms against them and their followers just kept on coming and their commune was growing and growing.  Finally, the Feds got involved when the poisoning occured and the leaders were sent to the slammer (federal imprisonment) and ultimately extradited out of the country.  The followers scattered and went home.  For a while though, the pristine gorge area of small communities found themselves is the same situation you have described above.  It was a very scarry time here and people did take their presence, threatening messages and civil disobedience as a real threat to people's lives and safety.
 
Who knows what would have happened if the same religious group had landed here in the 1800's?  


   


Posted: 22 April 2007 01:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]   

   
 
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amberale:
Invisible Man:
 
So, I, for one, am going to try to learn from this exchange. I'll try to acknowledge what I'm really irritated at, which is not the early Saints, but the current LDS leadership.
 



I cannot say that I buy into the current leadership argument. I do believe that interpretations of this historical period are coming out. How much the lds church should focus on history is another matter. The scholars are doing a good job in dissecting church history and members can read the books and find out more. Sundays are not for history lessons but certainly members can read Arrington and Bushman and discover more. However no one should have a testimony of any history. That also includes lds history.  


   


Posted: 22 April 2007 01:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]   

   
 
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I cannot say that I buy into the current leadership argument. I do believe that interpretations of this historical period are coming out. How much the lds church should focus on history is another matter. The scholars are doing a good job in dissecting church history and members can read the books and find out more. Sundays are not for history lessons but certainly members can read Arrington and Bushman and discover more. However no one should have a testimony of any history. That also includes lds history. 
 
And so said Davis Bitton.  But I'm afraid that the history of the church is inextricably tied up with its foundational claims.  I can't disagree more with Davis Bitton on this issue.
 
How the church (leadership and policy makers) responds to it's own history and the effect that history has on members of the church, will be interesting to watch as it becomes more mainstream.  
 
I personally think that Grant Palmer has got it right.  Jesus of Nazareth is a safer bet, than Joseph Smith. 


   


Posted: 22 April 2007 02:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]   

   
 
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Invisible Man: 
Maybe you are overestimating the draw that Joseph had among the early saints. The key was in the restoration and in the message.



 
Can a good fruit come from a false source?  If Joseph was shown to be a false prophet then HIS message and restoration would be worthless.  Perhaps you are grossly underestimating the importance of the messenger to the message.  Would we have Islam without Mohamed?  Christianity without Christ? 
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Posted: 22 April 2007 03:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]   

   
 
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Ambassador, thanks for your contribution to this thread.  You illustrate the necessity of context to understand history.  Slavery, the frontier, states rights, and changing perceptions of our political institutions must be examined to understand the Mormon experience in Missouri and Illinois.   Tapir's comments about teaching the gospel doctrine class demonstrate the importance of historical context to participants in a Mormon Sunday school.
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Posted: 22 April 2007 03:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]   

   
 
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helemon:
Invisible Man: 
Maybe you are overestimating the draw that Joseph had among the early saints. The key was in the restoration and in the message.



 
Can a good fruit come from a false source?  If Joseph was shown to be a false prophet then HIS message and restoration would be worthless.  Perhaps you are grossly underestimating the importance of the messenger to the message.  Would we have Islam without Mohamed?  Christianity without Christ? 



 
Islam has much appeal in the West especially within western europe and throughout the world. This is not because of Mohammed but because of its message. Likewise for christ. People are drawn to christianity because of the words of christ and not because of the man himself. With mormonism during its early phase members joined because of the book of mormon and the restoration. It gave forth a feeling of truth. Joseph was just an added bonus or minus depending on one's conception of a prophet. How many members in England joined because they met Joseph while they still lived in England? Not many.  Postmormons put too much emphasis on Joseph when they should put more emphasis on the message. 


   


Posted: 22 April 2007 04:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]   

   
 
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helemon:
Can a good fruit come from a false source?  If Joseph was shown to be a false prophet then HIS message and restoration would be worthless.  Perhaps you are grossly underestimating the importance of the messenger to the message.  Would we have Islam without Mohamed?  Christianity without Christ? 



 
I guess there is always the theory that in order to  make something grow well you need to fertilize it with plenty of BS
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Posted: 22 April 2007 04:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]   

   
 
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Invisible Man: 
How many members in England joined because they met Joseph while they still lived in England? Not many.  



How many members in England joined because of the promise of America and a desire for a fresh start in a country where they could own their own land?  I think Mormons put too much emphasis on these people joining because of the BoM or the message and ignore the other socio-economic factors that made the message attractive.  I doubt there would have been as many converts if the message hadn't been tied to the promise of the perpetual emigration fund.
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“If a Faith that will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be weak”. George A. Smith August 13th, 1871 Journal of Discourses Vol. 14 pg 216
“As religion is only found in man, so its seed must be in man. Men live always in fear, and make gods of things to praise and blame for their condition.
” - Thomas Hobbes Leviathan


   


Posted: 22 April 2007 05:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]   

   
 
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How many members in England joined because they met Joseph while they still lived in England? Not many.  Postmormons put too much emphasis on Joseph when they should put more emphasis on the message. 
 
 
 
Invisible Man.  Speaking of Mormon history in the context of these converts is interesting considering the fact that they were lied to about polygamy. They were told that the rumors of polygamy being practiced in Utah were false and only rumors. 
 
 
 
 
http://www.thedarksideofsaltlakecity.org/john_taylor.htm
 
 
If the people had been told the truth I wonder how many would have accepted the Book of Mormon and the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith. My guess is they would have dismissed it out of hand for the most part. We see so many instnace of Mormons in the past lying for the Lord. It is as much of the tapestry of Mormon history as any other thread. In fact it is so prevalent that one cannot truly study Mormon history without understanding the early saints practice of thie kind of deception.
 
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Posted: 22 April 2007 05:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]   

   
 
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free thinker:
How many members in England joined because they met Joseph while they still lived in England? Not many.  Postmormons put too much emphasis on Joseph when they should put more emphasis on the message. 
 
 
 
Invisible Man.  Speaking of Mormon history in the context of these converts is interesting considering the fact that they were lied to about polygamy. They were told that the rumors of polygamy being practiced in Utah were false and only rumors. The man that told them this was a currently practicing polygamist. I wonder how many would have come if they knew polygamy was in full force in Utah?
 
ft



 
Excellent point FT!!  So the message they were sold was a lie.  I also do not think you can seperate a message of restoration from the man who supposedly did the restoring.  Joseph is not a side note but a key component.  If JS was not what he claimed to be then the entire message of the restoration is a load of BS with no truth or power to save mens souls no matter how much people might like some of the ideas he taught.
 
Is this perhaps a new tact the church is going to take?  Down play JS and emphasize the message?  If so even this will fail because there are many parts of the message that are equally offensive and out of touch. 
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“As religion is only found in man, so its seed must be in man. Men live always in fear, and make gods of things to praise and blame for their condition.
” - Thomas Hobbes Leviathan


   


Posted: 22 April 2007 07:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]   

   
 
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The Ambassador:
 
These are just some thoughts I had which you may find interesting and will hopefully give you some new aspects to consider.



Ambassador,
 
That was one of the most helpful historical perspectives I've encountered in a long, long time.  I must confess, I've heard of Jacksonianism, but was not versed in it's meaning.  That little dissertation was very helpful!  You've done a great job of describing the "tinder box" to which Joseph sent his people...
 
Thanks! 
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Posted: 22 April 2007 09:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]   

   
 
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Invisible Man:
I cannot say that I buy into the current leadership argument. I do believe that interpretations of this historical period are coming out.

Well, you might be right. I hope so. I hope that the Church eventually obfuscates less than it has in the past.

Incidentally, this sort of brings up an interesting article written a little while ago by Bob McCue entitled, "Does the Mormon Church Have a Moral Duty to 'Come Clean' Respecting the Uncertain Nature of Its Origins?'

I think that's a valid question, and goes to the heart of your second comment in which you state, "How much the lds church should focus on history is another matter." Indeed, what is the Church's moral obligation in this regard? Obviously, there is something about its history that turns many members (but not all) off when they learn about it. So, obviously, obfuscation is a proven tactic on the Church's part to keep those members from finding out about the historical details that they would find troubling.

Is this not dishonest, though? Whether or not it's valid for these members to question based on certain historical data is immaterial. Perhaps they shouldn't have a problem with the historical details, and perhaps they should. But, they should at least be given a chance to learn the data and decide for themselves what is problematic and what isn't.

So, if the Church knows that certain types of historical data are problematic for a significant percentage of their congregation, wouldn't the honest or ethical thing to do -- i.e., being "honest with your fellow man" -- be to disclose this history, and be up-front about it? And not leave it to obscure historians to deal with -- historians the average member throughout the world would have little access to?

A recent example of this kind of obfuscation is in the "Teachings of the Prophets" manual about Brigham Young. It made him look like a monogamist -- a moniker he would have taken offense to, since polygamy was close to the very heart of his theology. Why did the Church take this step? My belief is that they know that polygamy is a sore spot for many members, so they obfuscate. True, FARMS, et al., talks about polygamy, but if you ask most Church members what FARMS is, I doubt that 20% could even tell you what the organization is, much less if they actually read their literature.

Sure, the Church has every legal right to obfuscate, and put it's history in the best possible light. But is it the ethical thing to do considering that there are many members who would choose not to belong to the organization if they knew about the non-Polyanna history?

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Posted: 22 April 2007 09:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]   

   
 
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Invisible Man:
Postmormons put too much emphasis on Joseph when they should put more emphasis on the message.


Are you suggesting that one should accept Smith’s message once perceiving him to be a fraud?

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Posted: 23 April 2007 12:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]   

   
 
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Tapir Whisperer:

 
Invisible Man:
Postmormons put too much emphasis on Joseph when they should put more emphasis on the message.

 
Are you suggesting that one should accept Smith’s message once perceiving him to be a fraud?
 



 
Hey if God can speak through Balam's ass I guess anything is possible!  
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Why Were Mormons Driven From State to State  
Posted: 20 April 2007 10:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]   

   
 
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Tapir Whisperer:

hotrod:
Joseph had made some outrageous promises to the Saints regarding Missouri, the land of their inheritance.  When it seemed improbable that those promises could be fulfilled Joseph needed a scapegoat.  Could he blame the Missourians?  No!  If the Missourians were the fault of the failure to establish Zion surely the Lord would sweep them aside so the faithful saints could establish their holy city.  So, who are you going to blame?  Why the saints themselves of course.  That is the only explanation they could really accept.  Obviously, they knew they had commited some transgressions.  Joseph told them they were being chastened and tried, and that eventually Zion would be established.
 
In every instance in which Smith’s Missouri prophecy failed, he blamed it on the saints’ transgressions (jarrings, contentions, envyings, strifes, lustful and covetous desires, not imparting of their substance among their poor).  Hmmm……is it just me?… why doesn’t this litany of sins seem incongruent with the actual reasons for the saints’ problems. 
 
I totally agree with you hotrod on this point.  Couldn’t blame the Lord or Smith…would be false prophecy.  Can’t blame the Missourians… would undermine revelation.  Of course…. gotta blame the saints.  Any other explanation would undermine Smith’s control.  



So, if I'm getting this right, what you guys are saying is that when the church teaches that the saints were driven out due to religious persecution, they are directly contradicting the word of God as revealed by the prophet, Joseph Smith?  
 
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Posted: 20 April 2007 11:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]   

   
 
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elder_nomo:
So, if I'm getting this right, what you guys are saying is that when the church teaches that the saints were driven out due to religious persecution, they are directly contradicting the word of God as revealed by the prophet, Joseph Smith? 

::puts on church hat::
Don't see a contradiction mate. The Lord suffered religious persecution to afflict the saints in consequence of polluting their inheritance.



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Posted: 20 April 2007 11:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]   

   
 
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Tapir Whisperer:
elder_nomo:
So, if I'm getting this right, what you guys are saying is that when the church teaches that the saints were driven out due to religious persecution, they are directly contradicting the word of God as revealed by the prophet, Joseph Smith? 
 
::puts on church hat::
Don't see a contradiction mate. The Lord suffered religious persecution to afflict the saints in consequence of polluting their inheritance.






D'oh!  Of course! 
::dusts off church hat to try it on, but chokes on the dust cloud stirred up::
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Posted: 21 April 2007 01:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]   

   
 
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elder_nomo:
D'oh!  Of course!  ::dusts off church hat to try it on, but chokes on the dust cloud stirred up::
 

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Posted: 21 April 2007 07:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]   

   
 
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Tapir Whisperer:
 
I totally agree with you hotrod on this point.  Couldn’t blame the Lord or Smith…would be false prophecy.  Can’t blame the Missourians… would undermine revelation.  Of course…. gotta blame the saints.  Any other explanation would undermine Smith’s control.  



 
What control did Smith have over the early saints? Many of the saints to my knowledge joined the lds church not because of Joseph Smith but because they believe in the restoration especially those saints who were baptised in distant lands. Joseph was just an added bonus. Joseph Smith was also a 'rough stone rolling' and his rough stone personality could be a turn off for some who would consider a prophet to be more pious in temperment. Joseph may have been charismatic but he definitely had his imperfections for all to see. Maybe you are overestimating the draw that Joseph had among the early saints. The key was in the restoration and in the message.


   


Posted: 21 April 2007 08:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]   

   
 
Invisible Man
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amberale:
Invisible Man:
 
Perhaps my overall point is: What you may see as us taking things too far in blaming the Saints may be just us focusing in on their potential culpabilities. I think most of us recognize that the surrounding non-Mormons had plenty of culpability of their own. However, it is always good to have folks such as you come here and remind us not to place too much blame on the Saints. Certainly there is plenty of blame to go around.
 



History is interesting and the historian can have a good time in second guessing why events happened the way they did. LDS history is no different. The more anti-lds wing of cyberworld seems to be awash in blatant accusations against the lds. This is one-sided. The lds can make a great case for being treating unfairly because they were treated unfairly. The unfairness was so extreme that there can be no defense in the abuse that they received. To argue culpability becomes moot.
 
You have a somewhat balanced viewpoint in your interpretation of the events. The thread has become more civilized with its interpretation of the events.


   


Posted: 21 April 2007 02:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]   

   
 
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The Mormons were treated the way they were not because of religious persecution but because of their own practices. Smith had to flee Kirtland because of his failed banking activities. It was best to leave NY because the people there knew he was a money-digger and glass looker and because he was a known convicted con-man.
 
The Saints had to leave Missouri because of the way they treated the "gentiles" (like Mormons are really Jews and can claim other people are gentiles).
 
The Saints had to leave Nauvoo because of the antics of Smith.
 
 Smith, the Mormon leadership under him and their staunchest follwers brought the problems on themselves.
 
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Posted: 21 April 2007 06:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]   

   
 
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Hello.  I have thought the information in this thread has been interesting.  Greetings to those I have not yet met.  I thought I would share a few thoughts concerning this matter.  I am not a strong hitorian, rather I am more versed in political science.  Much of the historical signficance from a political perspective might add some bonus thoughts on the matter of why Mormons were driven from state to state.  I am not claiming that my thoughts on the matter are true, but simply have seen some very strong aspects of American politics of the time involved in the history of the saints.
 
To begin, I  believe many people have been trying to show that "religious persecution" was not the primary reason for the seeming hatred of the Mormons by many wherever they went.  I agree with this idea, at least in as much that religious persecution was not the primary motive.  Unlike the history of Europe, religion has never played the balance of power game from a political perspective in the United States, at least not throughout most of its history (some accuse the Christian-right of today for playing this game).  In fact, the American menality was based strongly on the concept of "freedom of religion," an ideal to which most people have agreed in basic principle.  American mentality is less likely to drive individuals to persecute another group because of their religious beliefs.  Even the most fundamentalist groups have been content in large part to simply believe that they are right, others are wrong, that they are going to heaven and the wrong party to hell.  It is not in their nature to become militant in these beliefs.
 
That being said, the major polarizing factor that has led to violence in American culture time and again is different concepts of social issues.  Today's examples would be issues such as abortion, same-sex marriage, stem-cell research, etc.  The hot-button topics if you will.  Since these types of issues do not fit neatly into black and white catagories, the "Jacksonian" portion of America (I will explain Jacksonianism in a moment for those who are not familiar with it) has then used religion as a secondary justification for their views.
 
In the time of the early church, two major political factors had very strong influences on the decisions of others.  #1 was the hot-button topic of slavery.  Consider all of today's hot-button topics, abortion, same-sex marriage, stem-cell research, and then throw in the war in Iraq, global warming, prayer in schools, evolution, etc. and multiply it all by ten.  This was an issue about which many people were so passionate, it led to the most deadly war in American history.  Both the abolishionists and slave-owners used religion time and again to justify their positions.
 
The #2 factor, which I mentioned earlier, was the rise of a new wave of political throught, Jacksonianism.  Earlier, I noticed the quote in a post:
 

hotrod:
A very good book on the Nauvoo period is Cultures in Conflict: A Documentary History of the Mormon War in Illinois by John E. Hallwas and Roger D. Launis.  The documents vividly describe the conflict created by "...an ambitious theocracy that asserted itself within a Jacksonian social environment deeply devoted to democracy." 



 
Thank you hotrod for that post.  Jacksonianism is generally used in foreign policy language, it refers to what I can best describe as "redneck America."  It comes from the style of leadership embodied by the 7th American President, Andrew Jackson, who was a poor farm boy from Tennessee who rose in stature to become president.  His first fame came in the war of 1812, when his army of 2,000 or so famously slaughtered a retreating British battallion of about 30-50 men (estimates vary) in the Battle of New Orleans.  Also, it should be noted that a peace treaty had been already signed with England a few days previous to the battle, though there was no way for Jackson's men to know this.  The attitude of Jacksonianism is largely based on how you handle problems.  You go in there, take care of business, when using the military go in there full-steam ahead and solve the problem.  Jackson would later do this very thing when he invaded Florida, executed two British nationals for treason without giving them a trial, and had the American government turn the other cheek.  America squatted on the Floridas, and eventually, a very politically and economically weak Spain forfeited Florida to the Americans.   This history has little to do with Mormonism directly, but it started a new political wave which began to sweep through the US, especially in the west, such as Missouri, Illinois, Tennessee, and Kentucky.  The Jacksonians are concerned with their honor, and feel it is their duty to protect themselves from anybody who compromises that honor.
 
The Mormons then found themselves in a very dangerous and tense political environment in one of the most dangerous parts of the country at that time.  They were basically a large immigrant group, moving as a nation of people from state to state.  Also of note, the political structure of the US at the time was very different than today, for those who may not be aware.  State powers were in excess of Federal powers.  Real national power lay with congress, and not the President.  State sovereignty was more acute in this period than any other time in American history.
 
So, when a large group of immigrants move into a state whose political tensions are high over the most divided political issue in history, and when the mentality of the people is deeply rooted in this Jacksonian attitude of "don't tread on me!" You've got a recipie for disaster as it is.  The Mormons were seen by many as abolishionists and by others as slave-supporters, largely due to the fact that this wasn't a major issue of concern for the Mormons like it was in society at large.  Due to the lack of clear understanding of how the Mormons viewed slavery, society was automatically suspicious of them.
 
Granted, there were many who were upset with Joseph Smith or other church members for various reasons, either money-related, or tied to other occurances.  These were largely on the personal level.  Rumors of these occurances undoubtedly spread to others, many of whom probably knew nothing of Joseph Smith or any Mormon leaders at the time, other than what they heard through rumor.  These factors added together, and many felt the Mormons were a threat that had to go.  Though many would have been content with this evidence as reason for driving them out of the state, others sought further justification.  Here is where the idea of religious persecution finally came in.  For many, the idea of the Mormons practicing a new and different religion was that justification.  Had the political climate been more neutralized and calm at the time, many undoubtedly would have thought the Mormons were crazy or strange, but wouldn't have used violence to repel them from their homes, at least not on a wide-scale basis.  But, religion became a justification for their actions.  It was something that helped further convince others that the Mormons had to go.
 
These are just some thoughts I had which you may find interesting and will hopefully give you some new aspects to consider.
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Posted: 21 April 2007 07:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]   

   
 
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These are just some thoughts I had which you may find interesting and will hopefully give you some new aspects to consider
.
 
 
 
 
Ambassador
 
 
Thanks for that synopsis. I enjoyed reading it and it is definately well stated and well researched. I always thought Jackson's nickname  " Ole Hickory" was a good one. I dont know it's genesis but I think it definately fit him.
 
I do think there is one thing worth mentioning that no one has yet brought up. In every instance the Saints were initially welcomed warmly. There is something to be said for that.
 
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Posted: 21 April 2007 07:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]   

   
 
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If a group of religious zealots moved into your county and started to become the majority and they intimidated non-believers, manipulated the legal system in their favour and stole money where they could would you begin to fear them? Would you take up arms against them if they threatened you? Would you go to the state and ask for help? Or would you quickly convert to the new religion to save your skin and your property? I suspect if you are made of sterner stuff you might do something to protect your interests. As we read the history of Mormonism we cannot help but become suspicious that those who were "persecuting" the Mormons may have been acting out of their own selfish desire to avoid death, loss of liberty and or property.
 
Let's never let the facts get in the way of a good story, and since Mormon's wrote their own history they could tell it as they wished. There were other witnesses to the events and their version is pretty interesting.
 
I am sure none of the original founding con-men hought the rest of the world would catch up to the lies of Mormonism. What were the chances that people could look up the conviction record of Joseph Smith in New York? Who would know about the dealings of J.S. is Illinois? How could the past in Illinois, Ohio and New York ever really be known to the Saints way out in Utah? How could anyone prove one way or another if the Book of Abraham as translated by JS was a fraud? Who could ever prove that Lamanite DNA is not Hebrew in origin? I am sure JS and BY felt pretty safe in their lies. They didn't worry about future generations finding out the truth. Why should they? They got the $ the babes and the power!!!!! Woo Hoo!
 
I feel sorry for present day Mormons. They inherit the lies and somehow must reconcile it to the truth is self-evident to any who care to look at it with any degree of objectivity.
 
Mormon's today are truly a special generation. Either they have to be so immersed in magical thinking that any convoluted tale without any evidence can be believed or they are so courageous they can examine their own beliefs objectively and then stand by the truth as it is discovered. Either way they are special.
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Posted: 21 April 2007 07:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]   

   
 
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Invisible Man:
What control did Smith have over the early saints?  Many of the saints to my knowledge joined the lds church not because of Joseph Smith but because they believe in the restoration especially those saints who were baptised in distant lands. Joseph was just an added bonus. Joseph Smith was also a 'rough stone rolling' and his rough stone personality could be a turn off for some who would consider a prophet to be more pious in temperment. Joseph may have been charismatic but he definitely had his imperfections for all to see. Maybe you are overestimating the draw that Joseph had among the early saints. The key was in the restoration and in the message.


IMHO, you’re understating Smith’s control influence.  The ‘rough stone rolling’ argument is also a red herring.  You seem to be missing the point.  This is not about Smith’s imperfections. 

Indeed, faith in the message of the restoration was the key attraction.  But faith in the restoration and Smith’s revelations rested principally in one’s faith in Smith as God’s oracle on earth.  To the extent the saints lost faith in Smith, they lost faith in his revelations and the restoration. I would characterize that as Smith loosing control influence.   Smith was no dummy and therefore received enlightenment from the Lord to explain justify revelations' failure…..a pattern that was repeated again and again.

It's no different today.  One’s faith in Smith determines one’s faith in the restoration. 
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Posted: 21 April 2007 07:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]   

   
 
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free thinker:
 
I do think there is one thing worth mentioning that no one has yet brought up. In every instance the Saints were initially welcomed warmly. There is something to be said for that.
 
ft



 
This is a very excellent point, thank you for bringing it up.  One very possible explanation for their initial warm welcome fits into my ideas of the political influences.  People weren't concerned so much with the Mormons' strange religious practices, but rather, when this new group of people came into their state, at first they (non-Mormon citizens of the state and local politicans) were likely optomistic that they would have a whole new constituency to back their political views on slavery.  This probably looked like politicians vying for votes today, though we usually don't have entire new communities suddenly moving into a state these days.  However, once the ambiguous nature of church members concerning the issue dragged on, perhaps the threat, coupled with the rumors, and then justified on the base of religion, led to the ultimate results.  Then again, hard to say today just how everybody felt.
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Posted: 21 April 2007 08:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]   

   
 
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In fairness, the church seems to be making some progress in trying to educate their members with a more balanced history with respect to their religious persecutions.

When I was last teaching the D&C in the Gospel Doctrine class in about 1998 (not in Utah), the church provided a supplementary manual that explained many of social historical factors that underpinned the persecutions in Missouri.  Using this with my own historical research, I found the class discussions to be engaging and most members to be sympathetic and reasonably informed.

However, my criticism is that the church’s public PR machine appears to perpetuate the ‘innocent victim’ image.

Ambassador & Free Thinker:
I appreciated your inputs and you’re making some excellent points. With respect to your last point of discussion, perhaps Grape_Nephi’s flow chart needs a tweak:
Set up shop
locals embrace saints warmly
get in trouble
move away from the trouble
Go to step 1
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Posted: 22 April 2007 05:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]   

   
 
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Invisible Man:
The unfairness was so extreme that there can be no defense in the abuse that they received. To argue culpability becomes moot.

Here's where I think the value of determining culpability lies:

I think to most postmormons the idea of who should be blamed for what atrocity is a moot point from an historical perspective. Yes, without a doubt, early Latter-day Saints should have been treated much better. But, what I think the real (often unacknowledged) problem is, is that the Church's PR machine is slanted so far one way, that studying the actual events gives us all an insight into the lengths that the Church's PR machine will go to put a positive spin on LDS history.

So, our study of this matter really has little to do with whether or not the Saints deserved the treatment they got (they didn't!), and more to do with the lack of truth we've been fed while growing up in the Church.

I think many of us tend to forget this point, unfortunately -- and I'm speaking for myself on this, as well. We get so focused on how the Saints contributed to their own trials that we forget the original reason that we were studying the subject in the first place! The reason the subject captured our attention in the first place is that the historical reality was so different from the high-gloss pablum that we read about in the glossy church magazines that we couldn't help but focus on these issues. It's such a glaring bit of evidence that the Church manipulates its history, that it's hard not to get somewhat miffed.

Unfortunately, I think that our disgust at the Church's PR machine often gets misplaced and gets focused on the subject we're studying -- in this case, to the early Saints. As a group we probably ought to start being aware of this, and acknowledge that the early Saints didn't deserve what they got, but neither do we deserve to be misinformed and manipulated by the Correlation Dept.

So, I, for one, am going to try to learn from this exchange. I'll try to acknowledge what I'm really irritated at, which is not the early Saints, but the current LDS leadership.

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Posted: 22 April 2007 05:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]   

   
 
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meinmachine:
If a group of religious zealots moved into your county and started to become the majority and they intimidated non-believers, manipulated the legal system in their favour and stole money where they could would you begin to fear them? Would you take up arms against them if they threatened you? Would you go to the state and ask for help? Or would you quickly convert to the new religion to save your skin and your property? I suspect if you are made of sterner stuff you might do something to protect your interests.



 
This actually occured here when I was in HS by the Raj Neeshies.  They were religious zealots that bought a HUGE piece of property and followers flew in from all over the world to their commune.  People actually did give up all their property, even in this area to join the group.  When the raj neeshies began to come against laws of the state and county about land laws etc, they began making death threats against the Governor, the attorney general and they poisoned salad bars in restaurants with salmonella, trying to kill local people.  It was actually scarry, every time the Baj Wan gave a new diatribe against the people in our state.  People were ready to take up arms against them and their followers just kept on coming and their commune was growing and growing.  Finally, the Feds got involved when the poisoning occured and the leaders were sent to the slammer (federal imprisonment) and ultimately extradited out of the country.  The followers scattered and went home.  For a while though, the pristine gorge area of small communities found themselves is the same situation you have described above.  It was a very scarry time here and people did take their presence, threatening messages and civil disobedience as a real threat to people's lives and safety.
 
Who knows what would have happened if the same religious group had landed here in the 1800's?  


   


Posted: 22 April 2007 01:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]   

   
 
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amberale:
Invisible Man:
 
So, I, for one, am going to try to learn from this exchange. I'll try to acknowledge what I'm really irritated at, which is not the early Saints, but the current LDS leadership.
 



I cannot say that I buy into the current leadership argument. I do believe that interpretations of this historical period are coming out. How much the lds church should focus on history is another matter. The scholars are doing a good job in dissecting church history and members can read the books and find out more. Sundays are not for history lessons but certainly members can read Arrington and Bushman and discover more. However no one should have a testimony of any history. That also includes lds history.  


   


Posted: 22 April 2007 01:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]   

   
 
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I cannot say that I buy into the current leadership argument. I do believe that interpretations of this historical period are coming out. How much the lds church should focus on history is another matter. The scholars are doing a good job in dissecting church history and members can read the books and find out more. Sundays are not for history lessons but certainly members can read Arrington and Bushman and discover more. However no one should have a testimony of any history. That also includes lds history. 
 
And so said Davis Bitton.  But I'm afraid that the history of the church is inextricably tied up with its foundational claims.  I can't disagree more with Davis Bitton on this issue.
 
How the church (leadership and policy makers) responds to it's own history and the effect that history has on members of the church, will be interesting to watch as it becomes more mainstream.  
 
I personally think that Grant Palmer has got it right.  Jesus of Nazareth is a safer bet, than Joseph Smith. 


   


Posted: 22 April 2007 02:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]   

   
 
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Invisible Man: 
Maybe you are overestimating the draw that Joseph had among the early saints. The key was in the restoration and in the message.



 
Can a good fruit come from a false source?  If Joseph was shown to be a false prophet then HIS message and restoration would be worthless.  Perhaps you are grossly underestimating the importance of the messenger to the message.  Would we have Islam without Mohamed?  Christianity without Christ? 
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Posted: 22 April 2007 03:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]   

   
 
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Ambassador, thanks for your contribution to this thread.  You illustrate the necessity of context to understand history.  Slavery, the frontier, states rights, and changing perceptions of our political institutions must be examined to understand the Mormon experience in Missouri and Illinois.   Tapir's comments about teaching the gospel doctrine class demonstrate the importance of historical context to participants in a Mormon Sunday school.
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Posted: 22 April 2007 03:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]   

   
 
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helemon:
Invisible Man: 
Maybe you are overestimating the draw that Joseph had among the early saints. The key was in the restoration and in the message.



 
Can a good fruit come from a false source?  If Joseph was shown to be a false prophet then HIS message and restoration would be worthless.  Perhaps you are grossly underestimating the importance of the messenger to the message.  Would we have Islam without Mohamed?  Christianity without Christ? 



 
Islam has much appeal in the West especially within western europe and throughout the world. This is not because of Mohammed but because of its message. Likewise for christ. People are drawn to christianity because of the words of christ and not because of the man himself. With mormonism during its early phase members joined because of the book of mormon and the restoration. It gave forth a feeling of truth. Joseph was just an added bonus or minus depending on one's conception of a prophet. How many members in England joined because they met Joseph while they still lived in England? Not many.  Postmormons put too much emphasis on Joseph when they should put more emphasis on the message. 


   


Posted: 22 April 2007 04:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]   

   
 
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helemon:
Can a good fruit come from a false source?  If Joseph was shown to be a false prophet then HIS message and restoration would be worthless.  Perhaps you are grossly underestimating the importance of the messenger to the message.  Would we have Islam without Mohamed?  Christianity without Christ? 



 
I guess there is always the theory that in order to  make something grow well you need to fertilize it with plenty of BS
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Posted: 22 April 2007 04:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]   

   
 
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Invisible Man: 
How many members in England joined because they met Joseph while they still lived in England? Not many.  



How many members in England joined because of the promise of America and a desire for a fresh start in a country where they could own their own land?  I think Mormons put too much emphasis on these people joining because of the BoM or the message and ignore the other socio-economic factors that made the message attractive.  I doubt there would have been as many converts if the message hadn't been tied to the promise of the perpetual emigration fund.
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“If a Faith that will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be weak”. George A. Smith August 13th, 1871 Journal of Discourses Vol. 14 pg 216
“As religion is only found in man, so its seed must be in man. Men live always in fear, and make gods of things to praise and blame for their condition.
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Posted: 22 April 2007 05:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]   

   
 
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How many members in England joined because they met Joseph while they still lived in England? Not many.  Postmormons put too much emphasis on Joseph when they should put more emphasis on the message. 
 
 
 
Invisible Man.  Speaking of Mormon history in the context of these converts is interesting considering the fact that they were lied to about polygamy. They were told that the rumors of polygamy being practiced in Utah were false and only rumors. 
 
 
 
 
http://www.thedarksideofsaltlakecity.org/john_taylor.htm
 
 
If the people had been told the truth I wonder how many would have accepted the Book of Mormon and the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith. My guess is they would have dismissed it out of hand for the most part. We see so many instnace of Mormons in the past lying for the Lord. It is as much of the tapestry of Mormon history as any other thread. In fact it is so prevalent that one cannot truly study Mormon history without understanding the early saints practice of thie kind of deception.
 
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Posted: 22 April 2007 05:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]   

   
 
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free thinker:
How many members in England joined because they met Joseph while they still lived in England? Not many.  Postmormons put too much emphasis on Joseph when they should put more emphasis on the message. 
 
 
 
Invisible Man.  Speaking of Mormon history in the context of these converts is interesting considering the fact that they were lied to about polygamy. They were told that the rumors of polygamy being practiced in Utah were false and only rumors. The man that told them this was a currently practicing polygamist. I wonder how many would have come if they knew polygamy was in full force in Utah?
 
ft



 
Excellent point FT!!  So the message they were sold was a lie.  I also do not think you can seperate a message of restoration from the man who supposedly did the restoring.  Joseph is not a side note but a key component.  If JS was not what he claimed to be then the entire message of the restoration is a load of BS with no truth or power to save mens souls no matter how much people might like some of the ideas he taught.
 
Is this perhaps a new tact the church is going to take?  Down play JS and emphasize the message?  If so even this will fail because there are many parts of the message that are equally offensive and out of touch. 
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“If a Faith that will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be weak”. George A. Smith August 13th, 1871 Journal of Discourses Vol. 14 pg 216
“As religion is only found in man, so its seed must be in man. Men live always in fear, and make gods of things to praise and blame for their condition.
” - Thomas Hobbes Leviathan


   


Posted: 22 April 2007 07:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]   

   
 
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The Ambassador:
 
These are just some thoughts I had which you may find interesting and will hopefully give you some new aspects to consider.



Ambassador,
 
That was one of the most helpful historical perspectives I've encountered in a long, long time.  I must confess, I've heard of Jacksonianism, but was not versed in it's meaning.  That little dissertation was very helpful!  You've done a great job of describing the "tinder box" to which Joseph sent his people...
 
Thanks! 
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Posted: 22 April 2007 09:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]   

   
 
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Invisible Man:
I cannot say that I buy into the current leadership argument. I do believe that interpretations of this historical period are coming out.

Well, you might be right. I hope so. I hope that the Church eventually obfuscates less than it has in the past.

Incidentally, this sort of brings up an interesting article written a little while ago by Bob McCue entitled, "Does the Mormon Church Have a Moral Duty to 'Come Clean' Respecting the Uncertain Nature of Its Origins?'

I think that's a valid question, and goes to the heart of your second comment in which you state, "How much the lds church should focus on history is another matter." Indeed, what is the Church's moral obligation in this regard? Obviously, there is something about its history that turns many members (but not all) off when they learn about it. So, obviously, obfuscation is a proven tactic on the Church's part to keep those members from finding out about the historical details that they would find troubling.

Is this not dishonest, though? Whether or not it's valid for these members to question based on certain historical data is immaterial. Perhaps they shouldn't have a problem with the historical details, and perhaps they should. But, they should at least be given a chance to learn the data and decide for themselves what is problematic and what isn't.

So, if the Church knows that certain types of historical data are problematic for a significant percentage of their congregation, wouldn't the honest or ethical thing to do -- i.e., being "honest with your fellow man" -- be to disclose this history, and be up-front about it? And not leave it to obscure historians to deal with -- historians the average member throughout the world would have little access to?

A recent example of this kind of obfuscation is in the "Teachings of the Prophets" manual about Brigham Young. It made him look like a monogamist -- a moniker he would have taken offense to, since polygamy was close to the very heart of his theology. Why did the Church take this step? My belief is that they know that polygamy is a sore spot for many members, so they obfuscate. True, FARMS, et al., talks about polygamy, but if you ask most Church members what FARMS is, I doubt that 20% could even tell you what the organization is, much less if they actually read their literature.

Sure, the Church has every legal right to obfuscate, and put it's history in the best possible light. But is it the ethical thing to do considering that there are many members who would choose not to belong to the organization if they knew about the non-Polyanna history?

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Posted: 22 April 2007 09:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]   

   
 
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Invisible Man:
Postmormons put too much emphasis on Joseph when they should put more emphasis on the message.


Are you suggesting that one should accept Smith’s message once perceiving him to be a fraud?

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Posted: 23 April 2007 12:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]   

   
 
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Tapir Whisperer:

 
Invisible Man:
Postmormons put too much emphasis on Joseph when they should put more emphasis on the message.

 
Are you suggesting that one should accept Smith’s message once perceiving him to be a fraud?
 



 
Hey if God can speak through Balam's ass I guess anything is possible!  
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“If a Faith that will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be weak”. George A. Smith August 13th, 1871 Journal of Discourses Vol. 14 pg 216
“As religion is only found in man, so its seed must be in man. Men live always in fear, and make gods of things to praise and blame for their condition.
” - Thomas Hobbes Leviathan


   


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 playing cards
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 Wall Street Journal on PBS series
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UPDATE on Seminary Problems
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Wine was different in Jesus time
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Depression After Resignation
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Church asks activist group to reconsider plans to protest GC
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Spin off Post "Cleaning House" - Genealogy
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Cleaning House
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I finally bumped into some Mormon missionaries!
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Knock on the Door and Bad Memory
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Couldn't a real prophet find that plane?
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[San Francisco Bay...] 
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[Southern Utah Pos...] 
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[Boston, MA Post-M...] 
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[Salt Lake City Po...] 
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Las Vegas meetup Sun Jan 12th 1pm at Milos in Boulder City
onendagus

January 5th- Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
gypsyrose

Book of Mormon Tories
by Tom Donofrio 
Book of Mormon Tories
by Nogginus Skepticalus 
Native American DNA
by GTM 
Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Reuben

Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Virginia Steve

CALM meet up for June
4bagel

Revised NW Women's Retreat Announcement
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Austin Fall Party
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by Timo 
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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In search of Truth

Carolina PostMo Night: “The Master"
Swearing Elder

Washington D.C. Post-Mormon Lunch - August 28
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 When did you know you knew…?   ( 1 2)
Author: MoonShine 50 4732  
Posted: 05-03-2007 02:49 PM
Author: Jedi 


 Poll: ex-Mormon vs. post-Mormon vs. DAMU, etc.
Author: chanson 32 2852  
Posted: 05-03-2007 02:14 PM
Author: chanson 


 Living in Mormon-PostMormon Limbo
Author: noodle 0 841  
Posted: 05-03-2007 12:57 PM
Author: noodle 


 Ken Jennings thinks the Internets are mean to Mormons
Author: Uppity Woman 11 1578  
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Author: Dogzilla Joy 


 15 minute fallout…. thoughts for Freethinker.
Author: pnut 7 1387  
Posted: 05-03-2007 12:22 PM
Author: Dogzilla Joy 


 Various Accounts of the ‘First Vision’
Author: Born Free 2 1185  
Posted: 05-03-2007 06:15 AM
Author: Born Free 


 People who swore to have seen the gold plates.
Author: pnut 6 1540  
Posted: 05-03-2007 04:31 AM
Author: pnut 


 On a different topic, don’t buy gas on May 15th
Author: Grape Nephi 11 1502  
Posted: 05-03-2007 01:54 AM
Author: lunaverse 


 Finding Former Belief Abhorrent
Author: Born Free 6 1237  
Posted: 05-03-2007 01:16 AM
Author: pnut 


 bitterness….??
Author: poodledoodledude 17 1835  
Posted: 05-03-2007 12:12 AM
Author: rosetta stone 


 ventured onto the FAIR apologetic discussion forum.
Author: pnut 27 2480  
Posted: 05-02-2007 11:31 PM
Author: Born Free 


 The North American Narcissism of Mormonism
Author: Born Free 2 1021  
Posted: 05-02-2007 09:38 PM
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Author: Lysis 8 1398  
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Author: dave (e_nomo) 


 Apron of green leaves
Author: helemon 11 1647  
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Author: Eternal Covenant 20 2288  
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Posted: 05-02-2007 06:20 PM
Author: helemon 


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Posted: 05-02-2007 06:14 PM
Author: helemon 


 **Southern Utah Post Mormon Lecture series MAY 6th**
Author: skeptic 0 766  
Posted: 05-02-2007 05:10 PM
Author: skeptic 


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Author: free thinker 97 8063  
Posted: 05-02-2007 03:38 PM
Author: Grape Nephi 


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Author: exmodad 2 1141  
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Author: helemon 0 903  
Posted: 05-02-2007 12:20 PM
Author: helemon 


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Author: Born Free 13 1602  
Posted: 05-02-2007 12:19 PM
Author: Dogzilla Joy 


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Author: Crissy 


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Author: swwetgras 2 1063  
Posted: 05-02-2007 06:00 AM
Author: Crissy 


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Author: miss taken 7 1251  
Posted: 05-02-2007 04:59 AM
Author: Born Free 


 I Hate Safety
Author: Tal Bachman 14 1665  
Posted: 05-02-2007 12:17 AM
Author: Born Free 


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Posted: 05-01-2007 11:38 PM
Author: spanishfalcon 


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Author: Grape Nephi 0 947  
Posted: 05-01-2007 07:56 PM
Author: Grape Nephi 


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Author: pnut 11 1629  
Posted: 05-01-2007 05:45 PM
Author: Crime Dog 


 I’m here because of the billboard!!!
Author: poodledoodledude 5 1452  
Posted: 05-01-2007 05:44 PM
Author: helemon 


 Why Does This Church Exist?   ( 1 2)
Author: Crime Dog 43 4765  
Posted: 05-01-2007 04:15 PM
Author: meinmachine 


 Questions about leaving….   ( 1 2 3)
Author: maybelle 87 9847  
Posted: 05-01-2007 02:42 PM
Author: spanishfalcon 



  
   

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 Just when things start to go well.......
by Muffin Top
 "Katie Finds a Better Way": A Story for the "Friend" and Musicalkate (New Link)
by DrW
UPDATE on Seminary Problems
by Edmond Dantès
Wine was different in Jesus time
by finex
Depression After Resignation
by finex
Church asks activist group to reconsider plans to protest GC
by Brad (ZeeZrom)
Spin off Post "Cleaning House" - Genealogy
by quietlydifferent
Cleaning House
by blueazure
I finally bumped into some Mormon missionaries!
by Matter Unorganized
Scientology Ripped Family Apart-- Doubting (Could have an article like this on the news every night about Mormonism)
by Strong Free & Thankful
Big Bang Theory Proven--Validation for this Scientist's Life's Work--Beautiful!
by blueazure
Knock on the Door and Bad Memory
by WinstonSmith
I could use some help!
by son of perdition
Looking for fellow lost souls
by Ninon de Lenclos
Mormon Church sending people DNA test kits but refusing to comment on results?
by OldSoul
Couldn't a real prophet find that plane?
by Bold Wish
I need help more than LDS corp.
by victim
Mormon kitsch
by huehuetenango
A Daring Statement by an 8-year-old
by haylee
This is Hard
by Tincan 

  
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OCTOBER CONFERENCE
"Past, Present, and Possibilities"
Oct. 18-20, 2013






























 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



Portland Oregon meetup
[Portland Post-Mor...] 
Las Vegas March Meetup! Sunday 16th 1pm
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
[Palmetto Post-Mor...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (3/2)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
March Get Together
[Idaho Falls Post-...] 
San Diego lunch this Sunday at noon!
[San Diego Post-Mo...] 
March 2nd 2014-Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
FEB 22 - First ever Boston Meeting!
[Boston, MA Post-M...] 
Every Sunday in Utah
[Salt Lake City Po...] 
February Meetup Sunday the 16th 2:00pm Grand Cafe at Sunset Station
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
Secret FB group and dinner social
[East Tennessee Po...] 
Feb 2nd Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
[Southern Utah Pos...] 


General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder

General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
dovahkiyn

February Meetup Sunday the 16th 2:00pm Grand Cafe at Sunset Station
onendagus

Visitors welcome !
priorvej12

Las Vegas meetup Sun Jan 12th 1pm at Milos in Boulder City
onendagus

January 5th- Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
gypsyrose

Book of Mormon Tories
by Tom Donofrio 
Book of Mormon Tories
by Nogginus Skepticalus 
Native American DNA
by GTM 
Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Reuben

Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Virginia Steve

CALM meet up for June
4bagel

Revised NW Women's Retreat Announcement
lunaverse

Austin Fall Party
lightrider702

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
by Timo 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by ExMoNemo 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Mikki B 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Mikki B

Resignation Letter to My Family
Waveoftruth

Resignation Letter to My Family
In search of Truth

Carolina PostMo Night: “The Master"
Swearing Elder

Washington D.C. Post-Mormon Lunch - August 28
freckles

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Financial Report for 2011 to Date
by Jeff Ricks 
Resignation Letter to My Family
pennw


            

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