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One Little Match Thomas S. Monson  
Posted: 13 March 2014 05:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Today, on the eve of March 14, 2014!
 
One Little Match by Thomas S. Monson
 
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865598525/Whats-new-One-Little-Match-by-Thomas-S-Monson.html
 
Only to be succeeded by maybe 'Run Boy Run', heh.
 
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Posted: 13 March 2014 05:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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One little match to burn this book maybe.  His young life was so full of teaching moments.  Its a wonder he had time to eat and go to the bathroom. Can this event be verified?
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Posted: 13 March 2014 07:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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..one wonders if these stories are just fabricated... and really... has he learned his lessons and will he obey the law these days ??? ..if not, then what right does he have to preach morality to children or anyone else ? 

   


Posted: 13 March 2014 07:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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He was such an idiot, and that hasn't changed since he was eight years old.
 
At that age, I knew how to play with matches without starting uncontrolled fires. And if I didn't have matches? Well, a magnifying glass worked quite well, too.
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Posted: 13 March 2014 08:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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I think that's not a bad metaphor for the life of Joseph Smith. Basically, you had a poor young farmer who did not want to be a poor young farmer. He experimented with different kinds of tall tales and outright deceptions until he settled on religion. My guess is that he probably thought his career as prophet would set him and his family up comfortably with a loyal and generous group of followers. Soon, however, the deceptions piled up because things happened he hadn't counted on--both because it was a more complicated situation than he bargained for and also because he came to need more power, more wealth, and more sex as he went along.
 
If you look at the history of the church and particularly the introduction of new scripture, you see Smith using revelation as a way to change the subject when things got out of hand and as a reinforcement of authority when he was challenged. Carthage wouldn't have happened had he not become enamored of power, wealth, and sex, but then you can't really pinpoint when things spiraled out of control.
 
I would argue the whole venture was driven by Joseph Smith's personal desires and was thus doomed to burn out of control, like that fire Monson lit as a child.
 
I sometimes imagine Smith as he lay dying on the ground in Carthage and wondering to himself how it all came to this.
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Posted: 13 March 2014 11:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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After reading this story, I couldn't help but wonder if young Tommy and his friend ever took any of those rocks they were collecting, put them in a hat, and then looked at them to see what would happen next?  My guess is that they didn't, because even 8 year old boys typically know better than to believe in magic rocks.  I realize that wasn't the point of this likely fictitious story, but it made me wonder if even Tommy himself would have been willing to accept the idea of peep stones before his indoctrination was complete.  It has always amazed me that for people who are die hard TBM, they know bullshit when they see it until that bullshit involves a man who claimed he was a prophet.  Then, suddenly, magic rocks are not only ok, they somehow testify to them that God loves us so much that he makes inanimate objects into communication devices. 
 
On a side note, I wonder if the Church has used the seer stone for anything in recent years.  I know that they still have it in the Church vault and that it was present during the dedication of the Manti Temple, but I haven't heard of it being used since.
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Posted: 13 March 2014 12:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Young Tommy would be in Juvie today...probably would have been labeled a delinquent, his family would have been billed for the firefighting efforts and impoverished, he wouldn't have gotten as good an education, most certainly wouldn't be considered for early leadership positions in the aaronic priesthood and he'd probably now be selling some multi-level marketing products using the very same "stories" that end up in the prophet promotional materials in that link.
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Posted: 13 March 2014 02:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Wasn't this one of Paul Dunn's fabricated stories?
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New LDS Essay on DNA and the BOM  
Posted: 01 February 2014 08:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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These are the same old arguments that FARMS and FAIR have made. Nothing new!
 
https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-and-dna-studies


   


Posted: 01 February 2014 09:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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smoozy:
These are the same old arguments that FARMS and FAIR have made. Nothing new!
https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-and-dna-studies
It's as if the church I grew up no longer exists.
It's as if the film I was brainwashed with in my youth and which I in turn used to brainwash people with on my mission, Ancient America Speaks, never existed. 
It's as if the introduction to the Book of Mormon never claimed that the Lamanites were the principle ancestors of the American Indian.
It's as if God doesn't refer to Modern Native Americans as Lamanites 10 times in the Doctrine and Covenants.
-
Doctrine and Covenants 10:48
Yea, and this was their faith—that my gospel, which I gave unto them that they might preach in their days, might come unto their brethren the Lamanites, and also all that had become Lamanites because of their dissensions.
 
Doctrine and Covenants 19:27
Which is my word to the Gentile, that soon it may go to the Jew, of whom theLamanites are a remnant, that they may believe the gospel, and look not for a Messiah to come who has already come.
 
Doctrine and Covenants 28:8
And now, behold, I say unto you that you shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them; and inasmuch as they receive thy teachings thou shalt cause my church to be established among them; and thou shalt have revelations, but write them not by way of commandment.  
 
Doctrine and Covenants 28:9
And now, behold, I say unto you that it is not revealed, and no man knoweth where the city Zion shall be built, but it shall be given hereafter. Behold, I say unto you that it shall be on the borders by the Lamanites. 
 
Doctrine and Covenants 28:14
And thou shalt assist to settle all these things, according to the covenants of the church, before thou shalt take thy journey among the Lamanites.
 
Doctrine and Covenants 30:6
And be you afflicted in all his afflictions, ever lifting up your heart unto me in prayer and faith, for his and your deliverance; for I have given unto him power to build up my church among the Lamanites;
 
Doctrine and Covenants 32:2
And that which I have appointed unto him is that he shall go with my servants, Oliver Cowdery and Peter Whitmer, Jun., into the wilderness among the Lamanites.
 
Doctrine and Covenants 49:24
But before the great day of the Lord shall come, Jacob shall flourish in the wilderness, and the Lamanites shall blossom as the rose.
 
Doctrine and Covenants 54:8
And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites. 
 
It's convenient that the Lords annointed liars finally admit the patently obvious, that the DNA evidence proves Native Americans are not Jews (aka "Lamanites") but unfortunately that makes God a liar, since he does refer to Native Americans as "Lamanites" 11 times in the Doctrine and Covenants alone.
 
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Posted: 01 February 2014 10:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Probably more than a few of you have read this story on the SLTribune.  I believe that the appeal to reading this on the Trib's website is the comments section, because there you have a wild and vivid interplay between apologist TBMs and quite a cross-section of non-believers.  It's kind of like PostMo, but with people preaching the opposite of PostMo.  Here's the link, if you're interested in how TBMs are handling this:
 
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsfaithblog/57479124-180/dna-book-mormon-essay.html.csp
 
What gets me in the current process in which TSCC is involved is that the authorship of the essays is not divulged.  
 
One of the proud 'facts' we proclaimed on my mission was that we had a living prophet, and you don't, nyah, nyah, nyah!!  Cue triumphant music as we went on to explain how a loving ghawd would provide men to speak for him, and to lead us in righteousness, to keep us from error. 
 
So where is the prophet in these current apologist exercises?  Even giving credence to Tommy's likely loss of mental acuity, where are the Apostles?  Why aren't they at the pulpit, expounding on the Truth?  Why aren't they making sterling declarations and pointing fingers and portending wrath upon those who will not heed?  Where is the spectacle of prophets speaking for ghawd?
 
And throwing earlier prophets 'under the bus'!!  Doesn't that mean that ghawd left us on our own, with leaders who weren't listening to him?  Is there anything that BY said or did, other than "This is the place!" that amounts to him truly quoting his ghawd?
 
But then you see the comments from the TBMs, with their belief resting on the bedrock of their testimonies:  "I know that the church is true."  And since they 'know' this, they accept the LDS essays as revealed truths.  Facts cannot pierce their righteous armor.
 


   


Posted: 01 February 2014 11:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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I wondered the same thing about authorship and just figured it was a team from FAIR. It's the same circuitous logic that they use. Round and round and round we go and where we stop doesn't matter because a) it can't be proven, b) proving things is beside the point, and c) this is about the spirit and not history. If it is indeed only about the spirit, fine. The trouble is like you said, Old Dog, they've required everyone to believe it as scientific fact since its inception.
 
As for the true prophet bit they are certainly hanging by a thread on that one. If you're going to say you have a prophet of God, wouldn't it follow that the prophet would have a ton of great and progressive information? And wouldn't the prophet be able to write a clear public statement to the world? And wouldn't the prophet of all people not lie? They've got nothing.


   


Posted: 01 February 2014 11:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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We just can't seem to find those elusive descendants of Lehi. And that is proof they are out there somewhere.
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Posted: 01 February 2014 12:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Kori
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They excommunicated Australian LDS Geneticist Simon Southerton for publishing  Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church after they tried excommunicating Mormon Anthropologist Thomas Murphy for publishing his doctoral dissertation, "Lamanite Genesis, Genealogy, and Genetics." in American Apocrypha,
 
Now they come out and say, "The evidence assembled to date suggests that the majority of Native Americans carry largely Asian DNA.3 Scientists theorize that in an era that predated Book of Mormon accounts, a relatively small group of people migrated from northeast Asia to the Americas by way of a land bridge that connected Siberia to Alaska.4 These people, scientists say, spread rapidly to fill North and South America and were likely the primary ancestors of modern American Indians.5" 
 
Yeah, you excommunicated one LDS scientists who said that and tried excommunicating another one. 
 
 
 
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Posted: 01 February 2014 01:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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Holy shit, this thing is so full of holes. A few I haven't seen addressed in this thread:
 
-
The Book of Mormon itself, however, does not claim that the peoples it describes were either the predominant or the exclusive inhabitants of the lands they occupied. In fact, cultural and demographic clues in its text hint at the presence of other groups.6 At the April 1929 general conference, President Anthony W. Ivins of the First Presidency cautioned: “We must be careful in the conclusions that we reach. The Book of Mormon … does not tell us that there was no one here before them [the peoples it describes]. It does not tell us that people did not come after.”7 
 
Hmm... let's check out the referenced footnotes above, 6 and 7:
 
-
6 John L. Sorenson, “When Lehi’s Party Arrived in the Land, Did They Find Others There?” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 1, no. 1 (Fall 1992), 1–34. These arguments were summarized more recently in John L. Sorenson, Mormon’s Codex: An Ancient American Book (2013). Sorenson suggests that indicators in the book’s text makes it “inescapable that there were substantial populations in the ‘promised land’ throughout the period of the Nephite record, and probably in the Jaredite era also” (“When Lehi’s Party Arrived,” 34).



7 Anthony W. Ivins, in Conference Report, Apr. 1929, 15. 
 
So for #6, they use a mormon author who obviously will have his bias skewed in favor of the BoM. Furthermore, they just trot out his statement without acutally giving any type of evidence or proof upon which he would base such a statement. I guess a statement by a self-proclaimed "expert" is sufficient.
 
For #7, they just quote a General Authority, not an expert in the field. 
 
Furthermore, they conveniently ignore the BoM itself, which states in 2 Nephi 1:8:
 
-
8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be akept as yet from the knowledge of other bnations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance. 
 
Wow, the BoM states that this land should be kept from the knowledge of other nations. In other words, NOBODY KNEW about this land, which means there would be NO OTHER PEOPLE HERE. And as far as I know, the only "evidence" of other nations in the BoM are self-contained, wherein the Nephites find other nations such as the Mulekites and the Jaredites, but not any other nations such as the Cree or the Hopi or the Aztecs. 
 
There are also a couple of footnotes in verse 8. Footnote b is inconsequential, pointing only to the Topical Guide for "nations", but a points to 3 Nephi 5:20:
 
-
20  I am Mormon, and a pure descendant of Lehi. I have reason to bless my God and my Savior Jesus Christ, that he brought our fathers out of the land of Jerusalem, (and no one knew it save it were himself and those whom he brought out of that land) and that he hath given me and my people so much knowledge unto the salvation of our souls. 
 
This acutally points to another place in the essay, which addresses the possiblity of interbreeding with these "other nations". If mormon had remained a pure descendant of Lehi, even after a thousand years, that doesn't give much creedence to the theory of intermarriage. Rather, it suggests that all the people there are the descendants of the original group and no other people. How did his lineage remain pure through the periods of righteousness and wickedness? Because there was nobody else to breed with, that's why.
 
The last point I want to make is the church's use of this statement from the essay:
 
-
The 2006 update to the introduction of the Book of Mormon reflects this understanding by stating that Book of Mormon peoples were “among the ancestors of the American Indians.” 
 
They conveniently ignore the previous introduction to the BoM, which unequivocally states that the Lamanites are "the principal ancestors" of today's American Indians. They were wrong, they are wrong, and now they are trying to mitigate the damage but in doing so just dig a deeper hole for themselves.
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Posted: 01 February 2014 02:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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In the final paragraph the unnamed authors offer, "[T]he evidence is inconclusive."  That's a hugely hopeful misinterpretation of the evidence.  The evidence is consistently, decidedly against the Book of Mormon narrative.  It's not 100% against and the existence of uncertainty does not negate the direction of findings.  Reminds me of tobacco companies in the 60's and 70's denying that cigarettes harm health.
 
Something about these essays makes me smile.  If we took a sampling of statements from, oh say 2000, that related to these issues (e.g., polygamy, blacks and the priesthood, DNA and the Book of Mormon people) and put them into two camps (e.g., LDS defenders versus LDS detractors), we would have two columns of what was said before.  Then we could take these current essays and compare.  Who was right about polygamy?  The detractors.  Who was right about blacks and the priesthood?  The detractors.  Who was right about DNA and Native American origins?  The detractors.  I haven't read all of the essays so I have to ask here: is there even one of these topics that would be more closely allied with LDS teachings from a decade or two ago?  If not, then the current LDS teachings--at least in these essays--is that you get better, more lastingly valid information from the detractors.
 
Like I said: it makes me smile.


   


Posted: 01 February 2014 02:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
sage
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From LDS Gospel Principles Chapter 31:
 
"There are many other forms of lying. When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest."
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- Henry David Thoreau


   


Posted: 01 February 2014 03:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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SweetAs New Zealand
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This part to me is a significant.  From the 2nd paragraph we read:
 
"Although the primary purpose of the Book of Mormon is more spiritual than historical..."
 
Is this the direction the church is heading down with regards to the BOM?
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Posted: 01 February 2014 04:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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SweetAs New Zealand:
 
This part to me is a significant.  From the 2nd paragraph we read:
 
"Although the primary purpose of the Book of Mormon is more spiritual than historical..."
 
Is this the direction the church is heading down with regards to the BOM?
Apparently. 
The church is backing off the extraordinary literal truth claims that are easily debunked with a 5 minute Google search.
 
Jospeh Smith and Brigham Young screwing other men's wives and teenage girls = they were imperfect men and we never said they were perfect. 
Polygamy = God commanded it, for a limited time, for a limited few. No longer. 
Polyandry = There is no evidence they had sex, so it was cool. 
Racism = Everybody was racist back then. They were just products of their age. 
DNA Evidence disproving race claims Mormonism is based upon = It's just a metaphor. 
 
Apparently the church is relying upon people falling for Mormon's squeeky clean 'Family values' image and overlooking its cooky past.
Unfortunately for the recruiters, the cooky past is present. 
 
There's no getting around the fact that both Brigham Young and Joseph Smith's sex lives were perverse, to anybody except Mormons. Mormons sing "Praise To The Man" every Sunday and name every one of their Universities after an adulterer, which is no different than the fundamentalists worshiping a 30' tall idol of Warren Jeffs as he rots in jail on multiple child rape charges. 
There's no getting around the fact that polygamy is very much a part of Mormon doctrine since it's still contained in D&C 132
There's no getting around the fact that both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young violated the Law of the Priesthood (and every other law ever written pertaining to marriage) by claiming other men's wives as their own.
There's no getting around the fact that what Mormons consider "the Word of God" is far more racist than any other book of 'revelation' in Judeo/Christianity. 
There's no getting around the fact that the Mormon God refers to Native Americans  as "Lamanites" 9 times in the Doctrine and Covenants. 
 
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Posted: 01 February 2014 06:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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I found it irritating that they said repeatedly, "We can't know the genetic make-up of Lehi, Ishmael, and thir families." That's pretty disingenuous, especially when they go on at length about how DNA testing works and which phenomena affect DNA markers. Based on e BOM, we have a pretty good idea of Lehi's genetics. He and his family were Jewish, living in Jerusalem in 600 B.C. They must have lived there for generations because Laban, a prominent religious official, had records of their family that wre important to them. There has been a LOT of work done to identify Jewish genetic markers from different locations, particularly Jerusalem. There is also significant data on the DNA of people throughout the Americas. None of it supports migration from a Jewish population center in Israel.
 
Few scientists will ever say the data are conclusive on anything, because the very nature of the scientific method leaves them open to new information, unlike Mormons who claim sure knowledge of absolute truth. But reputable geneticists are NOT out there saying there's doubt about whether Native Americans descended from Jews 2700 years ago.
 
Of course, the other annoying thing is their failure to cite statement after statement by Joseph Smith and others about the Lamanites living in the northeastern U.S. Joseph frequently made statements about important Nephite events that had occurred wherever he happened to be, at times finding skeletons of important Nephites who had been buried there. He and others also described the Hill Cumorah as being full of gold and brass records, armor, swords, treasure, etc. for the Nephite time. How and why would it be there if the people living in that area were not Nephite/Lamanite but in fact some other group that coexisted with them?


   


Posted: 01 February 2014 06:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Joseph Smith had a weakenss for sex with young girls, other men's wives and was most probably a psychopathic liar and a psychopath in general.  Brigham Young was just vile and mean and seemed to love the shedding of blood.  He was most probably a mass murderer by ordering it done.  Then there are the leaders today, well their claim to fame seems to be mass lying.  Honestly, where on earth could you find so much lying? Is there an organization out there that lies as much as these guys?  Is there anything to compare them to?  Volumes could be written just about their lies.  Its pathetic but maybe good for our cause in the long run.  All one has to do is pull back the curtain and by their lies ye shall know them.  All of this is my humble opinion. 

   


Posted: 01 February 2014 07:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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Kori
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Did anybody else notice that LDS Inc's PRopoganda department avoids using the racist Epithet "Lamanite" like the plague? 
They come up with 19 different ways to avoid using that racist epithet God had no problem applying to all Native Americans in the Doctrine and Covenants 9 different times. 
 
Creative names LDS Inc PRopoganda now favors to God's racist epithet for Native Americans, 
modern native peoples: 
 
native populations of the Americas
Book of Mormon peoples
The Ancestors of the American Indians
Native Americans
ancestors of modern American Indians
the peoples it (The Book of Mormon) describes 
groups to settle the Americas
modern native groups
those described in the Book of Mormon
Book of Mormon peoples
modern native populations
modern American Indian groups
emigrating parties described in the Book of Mormon
the emigrants described in the Book of Mormon
Native American groups
Amerindian population
New World groups
The 2006 update to the introduction of the Book of Mormon reflects this understanding by stating that Book of Mormon peoples were “among the ancestors of the American Indians.”
Doesn't the intro still say "Lamanites" not "Book of Mormon peoples"? 
They can't even honestly represent their own revisions they made  8 years ago.
It'd help if they could keep their stories straight. 
 
They must hire  Tobacco Industry lawyers to write this PRopoganda, because their ommissions are as glaring as the Tobacco Industry Lawyers denials that Tobacco is harmful to your health. 
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Posted: 01 February 2014 07:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
sage
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Kori:
 
Did anybody else notice that LDS Inc's PRopoganda department avoids using the racist Epithet "Lamanite" like the plague?  
 
 Yep. The more one scrutinizes this, the stinkier it gets. It is a far cry from the 1960's when SWK was carrying the Lamanite torch and expounding "the great day of the Lamanite." I was at the Hawaiian temple visitor's center in about 2004 and as I recall they still promoted the idea that the Lamanites/Nephites were ancestors of people in Pacific islands. I wonder if any of that has been tweaked in recent years.
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Posted: 01 February 2014 09:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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As expected, Simon Southerton has a good rebuttal to this essay, in which he hilariously directs his responses to "President Newsroom": http://simonsoutherton.blogspot.com/2014/02/response-to-president-newsroom.html
 
This essay, as well as the others, have validated one of the main factors in my apostasy, and probably in most of yours: Past prophets were wrong about central Mormon tenets many times; why should I trust current prophets to be right?
 
Naturally, most of the essays (especially this one) have downplayed the fact that these refuted ideas came directly from prophets claiming revelation from God. They don't include the plethora of quotes from church leaders (even Jesus, in the D&C) that are clear about Lamanites.

If prophets can't tell the difference between their own thoughts and revelation from God, then the whole concept of divine revelation is null and void. As these essays prove, we can never trust the word of the prophets. This realization was a catalyst for drastically altering my epistemology and leading me out of the church, for which I am ever grateful.
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Posted: 01 February 2014 09:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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Thanks for the link. It didn't really give authorship  of who to directly reply to. The bottom of the essay did have this statement :
 
The Church acknowledges the contribution of scholars to the scientific content presented in this article; their work is used with permission.
 
 
 
 
 






Maybe the church corporation expects individuals to ask God for article clarifications as its author?.
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Posted: 02 February 2014 07:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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I mean right off the bat they ask this...
 
Although the primary purpose of the Book of Mormon is more spiritual than historical, some people have wondered whether the migrations it describes are compatible with scientific studies of ancient America 
 
 
No, they are not god damn compatible.  They are in no way compatible.  I mean you could not get any more incompatible if you tried to explain how the Elves migrated from Middle earth to Canada.
 
The essay is over before it even begins.  They have ZERO credible evidence for a migration of any kind ANYWHERE on the FKING planet.
 
These essays are really bad.  They are actually worse than I thought they would be.  It is almost as if the Church is saying, "well, if you thought we were BS ing you before, here is another essay to remove all doubt that we are actively deceiving you.  Enjoy"
 
They are making their deceptions official now. 
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William Faulkner drunk and depressed
Dorothy Parker mean, drunk and depressed
And that guy in Seven Years in Tibet turned out to be a nazi
The founding fathers all had slaves, the explorers slaughtered the braves,
The Old Testament God can be so petty

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JIll Sobule
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC8Kf8v2apY


   


Posted: 02 February 2014 08:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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Dr. Simon Southerton's authoritative and devastating response to the BoM/DNA essay from LDS President Newsroom can be found here:
 
http://simonsoutherton.blogspot.com.au/2014/02/response-to-president-newsroom.html 
 
Additional interesting comment can be found here. 


   


Posted: 02 February 2014 10:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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DrW:
Dr. Simon Southerton's authoritative and devastating response to the BoM/DNA essay from LDS President Newsroom can be found here:
 
http://simonsoutherton.blogspot.com.au/2014/02/response-to-president-newsroom.html 
 
Additional interesting comment can be found here. 
 Thanks DrW.  The Church routinely defends their positions under the cover of academic authority in order to give their position credibility.  Protecting their multi billion dollar business seems to offer more than enough motivation to do this.  I am always grateful that postmormon academics and PHds take the time to dismantle the obfuscation efforts of the Church.
 
I think the church knows that it is defending a house of cards. 
 
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William Faulkner drunk and depressed
Dorothy Parker mean, drunk and depressed
And that guy in Seven Years in Tibet turned out to be a nazi
The founding fathers all had slaves, the explorers slaughtered the braves,
The Old Testament God can be so petty

Heroes
JIll Sobule
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC8Kf8v2apY


   


Posted: 02 February 2014 11:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler
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Kori:


It's as if the church I grew up no longer exists.
-
.
 
 
 
 Kori, you are right on the money.  The Church knows that as it exists now or rather has existed is not going work in the future.  I remember thinking years ago that there are going to be kids growing up in primary that will never be told that the Lamanites are the Native Americans.  The essays reveal the agenda the church has for transforming themselves.  I mean that the blacks and the priesthood essay.  There will be kids who grow up and never learn that there was ever any doctrinal foundation to the ban, if they learn about the ban at all.
 
 The church needs these kids to grow up in a different church than you and I grew up in if they are going to have a viable future.
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William Faulkner drunk and depressed
Dorothy Parker mean, drunk and depressed
And that guy in Seven Years in Tibet turned out to be a nazi
The founding fathers all had slaves, the explorers slaughtered the braves,
The Old Testament God can be so petty

Heroes
JIll Sobule
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC8Kf8v2apY


   


Posted: 02 February 2014 01:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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Kori
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Lloyd Dobler:
Kori: It's as if the church I grew up no longer exists
Kori, you are right on the money.  The Church knows that as it exists now or rather has existed is not going work in the future.  I remember thinking years ago that there are going to be kids growing up in primary that will never be told that the Lamanites are the Native Americans.  The essays reveal the agenda the church has for transforming themselves.  I mean that the blacks and the priesthood essay.  There will be kids who grow up and never learn that there was ever any doctrinal foundation to the ban, if they learn about the ban at all.
 
The church needs these kids to grow up in a different church than you and I grew up in if they are going to have a viable future.
Thanks Lloyd, 
I wonder if this latest official denial is just for public consumption to try and avoid the mass exodus going on or if they'll keep brainwashing primary kids with Book of Mormon Stories? 
-
"Book of Mormon stories that my teacher tells to me
Are about the Lamanites in ancient history.
Long ago their fathers came from far across the sea,
Giv'n the land if they lived righteously.
 
Lamanites met others who were seeking liberty,
And the land soon welcomed all who wanted to be free.
Book of Mormon stories say that we must brothers be,
Giv'n the land if we live righteously.
 
Samuel the Lamanite, high on the city wall,
Came to warn the people, and repentance was his call.
Arrows could not hit him, for a man of God was he,
And he taught in the land righteously.
 
Book of Mormon stories that my teacher tells to me
Are about the Lamanites in ancient history.
Long ago their fathers came from far across the sea,
Giv'n the land if they lived righteously." 
 
I'll never forget the last time I attended church at my local ward.
I went to the library to see if I could find any evidence of the Movie I'd seen a thousand times, "Ancient America Speaks" and it was as if it vanished from the face of the Earth. There was nothing about Ancient America in any kind of record, except a film strip about 2 Cumorahs, which I found ironic. 
 
I went to Sunday School where we were studying the Book of Mormon and the teacher was wondering aloud why the whole world didn't just accept the BoM as the word of God? A High Priest sitting in front of me wondered aloud when the promise of the BoM would be fulfilled and the Indians would be turned white and delightsome. I was shocked that anybody still believed that racist notion. I looked around the room to see if anybody else in the room was as offended as I was. When nobody returned my look of disbelief, I realized I was in the wrong tribe. I was nothing like them. I was like anybody outside of that room, who would be offended at such a racist notion being expressed outside those doors. I knew at that point there was no way I couldn "change the church from the inside". My Mormon scriptures were full of racist myths that had been cannonized as the word of God.
I walked out to go collect my kids.
I looked through the window of the door where my beautiful little Native American (Not Lamanite) daughter was sitting in Jr. Primary, and they were singing Book of Mormon Stories. Every time they sang the word "Lamanite" they were all putting their two fingers up behind their little heads pantomiming "Indian".
That nobody really understands how offensive that is to a parent of a little Native American child, is the real problem I knew I'd never be able to speak about or correct with my children, as a member of the Mormon church, or I'd risk being excommunicated.
That was the point at which I KNEW I had to pull the trigger and resign, not only for my sake, but for my children's sake and for the sake of future generations. 
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Posted: 02 February 2014 02:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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I believe that the RLDS changed their name to Community of Christ and I think they have back tracked on the literal belief in the BOM. Do you think the LDS will get to that belief at some point? I don't mean changing their name. I'm referring to the belief that the BOM is the most "correct book on earth".


   


Posted: 02 February 2014 04:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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Born Free
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Elder OldDog:
Probably more than a few of you have read this story on the SLTribune.  I believe that the appeal to reading this on the Trib's website is the comments section, because there you have a wild and vivid interplay between apologist TBMs and quite a cross-section of non-believers.  It's kind of like PostMo, but with people preaching the opposite of PostMo.  Here's the link, if you're interested in how TBMs are handling this:
 
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsfaithblog/57479124-180/dna-book-mormon-essay.html.csp
 
What gets me in the current process in which TSCC is involved is that the authorship of the essays is not divulged.  
 
One of the proud 'facts' we proclaimed on my mission was that we had a living prophet, and you don't, nyah, nyah, nyah!!  Cue triumphant music as we went on to explain how a loving ghawd would provide men to speak for him, and to lead us in righteousness, to keep us from error. 
 
So where is the prophet in these current apologist exercises?  Even giving credence to Tommy's likely loss of mental acuity, where are the Apostles?  Why aren't they at the pulpit, expounding on the Truth?  Why aren't they making sterling declarations and pointing fingers and portending wrath upon those who will not heed?  Where is the spectacle of prophets speaking for ghawd?
 
And throwing earlier prophets 'under the bus'!!  Doesn't that mean that ghawd left us on our own, with leaders who weren't listening to him?  Is there anything that BY said or did, other than "This is the place!" that amounts to him truly quoting his ghawd?
 
But then you see the comments from the TBMs, with their belief resting on the bedrock of their testimonies:  "I know that the church is true."  And since they 'know' this, they accept the LDS essays as revealed truths.  Facts cannot pierce their righteous armor.
 
 
It strikes me that in all their efforts to quarantine Gawd and his Profit$ from contamination by this back-peddling, they have failed to anticipate the blowback.
Gawd and his Profit$ can not avoid being trivialiased in these exercises, along with the entire power edifice these clowns have invested so much in. On these 'issues of substance' Gawd's leaders are AWOL, or clasping their testicles, knees shaking, like scared excuses for leadership.
 
Daryl 
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Posted: 02 February 2014 07:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
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Nogginus Skepticalus
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I don't know how they get around this account published by Joseph Smith & company: 
 
"....an 1842 publication edited by Joseph Smith recounting the miraculous visitation says, "When I first looked upon him I was afraid, but the fear soon left me. He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi. That God has a work for me to do... He said there was a book deposited written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang."
 
Note: Nephi was later changed to Moroni 
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Posted: 03 February 2014 08:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
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Next up: Church "flushes" Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham...heavily edits Doctrine and Covenants....and descends into obscurity.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 03 February 2014 01:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]   

   
 
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SweetAs New Zealand
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Sossy:
I believe that the RLDS changed their name to Community of Christ and I think they have back tracked on the literal belief in the BOM. Do you think the LDS will get to that belief at some point? I don't mean changing their name. I'm referring to the belief that the BOM is the most "correct book on earth".
 
Because the "primary purpose of the Book of Mormon is more spiritual than historical" according to the essay, IMO the church has already started heading down this track.
 
But, they will make the transition bit by bit
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Posted: 03 February 2014 01:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]   

   
 
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Tessa:Next up: Church "flushes" Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham...heavily edits Doctrine and Covenants....and descends into obscurity.
 
Maybe they can start by changing the tagline for the BOM.  Say, from "Book of Mormon - Another testament of Jesus Christ" to "Book of Mormon - Another novel about Jesus Christ."
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Posted: 03 February 2014 01:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]   

   
 
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Kori
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Sossy:
I believe that the RLDS changed their name to Community of Christ and I think they have back tracked on the literal belief in the BOM. Do you think the LDS will get to that belief at some point? I don't mean changing their name. I'm referring to the belief that the BOM is the most "correct book on earth".
The demise of the RLDS church provides an interesting case study in what happens when a religion 'normalizes' by giving up the unique "Truth" claims that distinguish one religion from all others and give the religion its reason for being. 
 
Like Paul Graham said, in Lies We Tell Kids, "The truth is common property. You can't distinguish your group by doing things that are rational, and believing things that are true. If you want to set yourself apart from other people, you have to do things that are arbitrary, and believe things that are false." 
 
LDS Inc has been trying to normalize for the past 20 years, without giving up the unique truth claims that distinguish it from other religions, mainly, Authority, which is the real idol of worship within Mormonism.
 
This latest release of PRopoganda seems to me to be aimed at slowing the exodus of people leaving the church in response to finding unsavory facts on the internet. They're doing their best to innoculate the faithful from the issues that caused our mental shelves to collapse under the weight of massive cognitive dissonance.
This appears to me to be a way to prevent Mormons from thinking too crictically about the unsavory aspects of their Mormonism, by giving these issues very superficial explanations. 
 
Mormon Racism? No Problem! Everybody was racist back then! Brigham Young was just a product of his day and age, as were all the other Mormon leaders who said really racist things back in the day. Give them a break!  
Polygamy? No Problem! We don't do that anymore. It was just a very limited practice that only a few people ever practiced.. That was just a phase and a test of faith, which they passed with flying colors!!! 
DNA disproves the Mormon claim that Native Americans are really "Lamanites"? No Problem! We never claimed that Native Americans were Lamanites, we only said Lamanites are among the ancestors of the American Indians, read the new and improved intro to the BoM!!!
I come accross Mormons all the time on social media, who have become amazingly adept at dismissing any concerns I might raise about the issues that caused me to reject the faith I inherited. Once you attach your ego to the group think and invested everything in it, you'll fight to defend the group think, like your life depends upon it. They have very sophisticated ways to justify their belief in Mormonism, despite the serious flaws in Mormon doctrine and problems with Mormon history. If you start with the unshakable conclusion that "The Church is True" it's easy to ignore the facts that prove otherwise. It's easy to rearrainge the information to create a very sophisticated justification for maintaining your position, that "The Church is true." and nothing you can say or do will move them off of that position. It's the old sunk cost bias.
 
-
 
 “One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.” 
Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
 
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“Lying is the sin that paves the way for every other sin.” Sam Harris


   


Posted: 03 February 2014 04:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]   

   
 
Celestial Wedgie
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SweetAs New Zealand:

Maybe they can start by changing the tagline for the BOM.  Say, from "Book of Mormon - Another testament of Jesus Christ" to "Book of Mormon - Another novel about Jesus Christ."
 
        Oh my goodness, this slays me!  Thanks from the bottom of my soulless, perdition-bound heart!  [Muttering to myself as I walk away, "Another novel about Jesus Christ... tee hee!']


   


Posted: 03 February 2014 07:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]   

   
 
sage
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Kori:
If you start with the unshakable conclusion that "The Church is True" it's easy to ignore the facts that prove otherwise. It's easy to rearrainge the information to create a very sophisticated justification for maintaining your position, that "The Church is true." and nothing you can say or do will move them off of that position. It's the old sunk cost bias.
 
-
 
 
 As I observe my very tbm wife and listen in on conversations of fellow employees, I wonder how many of them even know about these essays, let alone care enough to be bothered. The curious, the analytical, those into science and history maybe. But the way these have been presented makes me wonder just what percent of the believership is even aware. Some that are would likely categorize any negative comments as "anti mormon" and totally ignore them. 
 
But fortunatley there are those who are genuinely seeking truth that will see them for what they are, whitewash and propaganda.
 
For some unknown reason those at the top of mormon inc believe their shit doesn't stink. Well the reason isn't all that unknown. It is $ and power.
 
 
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If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away.
- Henry David Thoreau


   


Posted: 03 February 2014 07:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]   

   
 
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Kori
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sage: As I observe my very tbm wife and listen in on conversations of fellow employees, I wonder how many of them even know about these essays, let alone care enough to be bothered. The curious, the analytical, those into science and history maybe. But the way these have been presented makes me wonder just what percent of the believership is even aware. Some that are would likely categorize any negative comments as "anti mormon" and totally ignore them. 
I suppose what you focus upon, becomes your reality.
I see all kinds of Mormons talking about these essays on social media, especially FaceBook. It's amazing the rationalizations I see from Mormons. Blows my mind that Mormons have absolutly no problem whatsoever with the fact that JS and BY 'married' (screwed) other men's wives. They chalk it up to, the women went along with it, as did their husbands and in many cases the husbands were not even around. 
Today I had a Mormon compare believing the Church is true, despite all the evidence to the contrary, to believing in Santa Claus.
-
 "JS is speaking in first person in behalf of The Lord. JS believed that. Here is the good news, you wake up from, as it were a dream, to find yourself following a religion that got part of a story wrong. 
Look at the net result of believing in Santa Claus. When a child believes in Santa Claus, AND the Father and Mother participate in the ritual, the net result is that in the morning after a few days after the darkest night of the year, "gifts" will magically appear under the tree. Joy is celebrated, stories told, childrens eyes light up with happiness. Other traditions celebrated a Saturnalia, Chanukkah and some also had temple traditions. Our jovial and clever ancestors learned how to teach their children in ways that accommodated natural rites of passage and preparedness. In the Hebrew tradition, one does not begin to study Qabballah until they are Age 40. In the Tree of Life meditation by Lehi, after the dark night (dreary wasteland) passes, fruit or the gifts under the tree are then attained. The "gifts" distill as the morning dew, "under the tree". Doing good for goodness sake, and because there truly are spiritual laws irrevocably decreed from under the rocks of time and the waters from the ancient floods flow over them..."and some of the words are theirs". And so it goes my fellows." 
So there you have it. You wake up to find yourself following a religion that got 'part of the story wrong' and instead of digging deeper to find out the real source of the stench of bullshit, you go the other way, you just suspend disbelief, like a child would suspend disbelief in Santa Claus, so that "the net rsusult is 'gifts' magically appear under the tree, joy is celebrated, stories told and children's eyes light up with happiness."
But fortunatley there are those who are genuinely seeking truth that will see them for what they are, whitewash and propaganda.
Those are few and far between, amongst the Mormons who choose to remain, despite all the evidence that is freely available with a 5 minute Google search. Ignorance is a clear choice in the midst of the information age. The herding instinct is a powerful survival instinct, deeply rooted in the middle (mamalian) brain. It is closely related to the fight or flight instinct and the ego. Any information that might cause doubt about the 'official narrative' (tribal myth) is perceived as a real threat to one's self narrative, or ego, triggering the fight or flight instinct, at which point, the believer goes on the defensive and shuts down the pathways leading to the more evolved parts of their brain, the neo cortex, where reason, empathy and conscience take place.
So how do you ever appeal to those more evolved functions of your loved one's brain?  
Empathy. (Pathos)
Ethics. (Ethos)
Logic.  (Logos) 
Aristotle's Rhetorical Appeals
The Socratic Method
Still work.  
 
For some unknown reason those at the top of mormon inc believe their shit doesn't stink. Well the reason isn't all that unknown. It is $ and power.
Ego. They are not above lying for the Lord, the ends justify the means. THey're above the law, even the very law Joseph Smith claimed to have received straight from God himself.
They will protect "The Good Name of the Church" above all else, even above protecting children from sexual predators.
They're protecting themselves, their legacy, the "Faith of my Fathers" and that's a hill they're all prepared to die upon. 
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“Lying is the sin that paves the way for every other sin.” Sam Harris


   


Posted: 07 February 2014 04:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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The latest I have come across is this link from a TBM on the DNA topic.
 
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/11/131120-science-native-american-people-migration-siberia-genetics/
 
Maybe the great Hoax of a corporation is holding out before they rewrite even more things like Samuel the Eurasian Lamanite gets up on a wall to brainwash a make believe audience.
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars time talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.


   


Posted: 08 February 2014 05:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]   

   
 
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priorvej12
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Like Elder OldDog I hardly recognize the church I was brought up in... everything is changing. I almost wish I had kept my old BOM just to compare with latest edition.... but then I would have to spend money on that and I will not! It is interesting to see all the SPIN SPIN SPIN going on... they must really squirm while coming up with new ways of talking about the teachings. This one really got to me too : "Although the primary purpose of the Book of Mormon is more spiritual than historical..." .. arg! ..so frustrating to watch... so happy to be free cool smile Solveig 

   


Posted: 08 February 2014 06:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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Kori:
Sossy:
I believe that the RLDS changed their name to Community of Christ and I think they have back tracked on the literal belief in the BOM. Do you think the LDS will get to that belief at some point? I don't mean changing their name. I'm referring to the belief that the BOM is the most "correct book on earth".
The demise of the RLDS church provides an interesting case study in what happens when a religion 'normalizes' by giving up the unique "Truth" claims that distinguish one religion from all others and give the religion its reason for being. 
 
Like Paul Graham said, in Lies We Tell Kids, "The truth is common property. You can't distinguish your group by doing things that are rational, and believing things that are true. If you want to set yourself apart from other people, you have to do things that are arbitrary, and believe things that are false." 
 
LDS Inc has been trying to normalize for the past 20 years, without giving up the unique truth claims that distinguish it from other religions, mainly, Authority, which is the real idol of worship within Mormonism.
 
This latest release of PRopoganda seems to me to be aimed at slowing the exodus of people leaving the church in response to finding unsavory facts on the internet. They're doing their best to innoculate the faithful from the issues that caused our mental shelves to collapse under the weight of massive cognitive dissonance.
This appears to me to be a way to prevent Mormons from thinking too crictically about the unsavory aspects of their Mormonism, by giving these issues very superficial explanations. 
 
Mormon Racism? No Problem! Everybody was racist back then! Brigham Young was just a product of his day and age, as were all the other Mormon leaders who said really racist things back in the day. Give them a break!  
Polygamy? No Problem! We don't do that anymore. It was just a very limited practice that only a few people ever practiced.. That was just a phase and a test of faith, which they passed with flying colors!!! 
DNA disproves the Mormon claim that Native Americans are really "Lamanites"? No Problem! We never claimed that Native Americans were Lamanites, we only said Lamanites are among the ancestors of the American Indians, read the new and improved intro to the BoM!!!
I come accross Mormons all the time on social media, who have become amazingly adept at dismissing any concerns I might raise about the issues that caused me to reject the faith I inherited. Once you attach your ego to the group think and invested everything in it, you'll fight to defend the group think, like your life depends upon it. They have very sophisticated ways to justify their belief in Mormonism, despite the serious flaws in Mormon doctrine and problems with Mormon history. If you start with the unshakable conclusion that "The Church is True" it's easy to ignore the facts that prove otherwise. It's easy to rearrainge the information to create a very sophisticated justification for maintaining your position, that "The Church is true." and nothing you can say or do will move them off of that position. It's the old sunk cost bias.
 
-
 
 “One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.” 
Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
 
 
I keep thinking that when the ridiculous facts are being examined by the public--TBMs will have the best chance of seeing the truth. 
 
This is why I think this:  There was a man in my and my sibling's childhood who was an evil Joseph Smith wanta be.  Anyone should have been able to see his scheme and how awful he was.  We were able to get away from him finally.  It is complicated but my mom could not see through him.  She defended him as a good man who was following the orders of god throughout almost all of her life.  I say almost as a couple of years before she passed away, for some reason, I thought the information should not be lost of what happend and should be examined before someone other than the immediate family.  It only took a few days of this and my mom--for the first time ever--admitted that this man was evil, a liar and "trash" she called him.  She then wrote me a note saying how sorry she was for those things that she had "unintentionally done to me."  I adore my mom.  She was one of the kindest people I have known.  I always knew she was being "fooled" as a child.
 
This is my point:  All those decades, it was maddening to have her defend a monster who hurt her and her children.  Once I was so upset by her doing so that I purposely drove the car into a snowy ditch in fraustration as she talked of how he had sacrificed in committing the abuse that he did not want to commit in order to save us from hell.  Nothing I could say or my siblings could say got through to her.  She was in total cognitive dissonance and denal.  Yet, when she was embarrassed by what this person--who was new to the information--must be thinking as he heard some of the story, she saw it differently.  She suddenly saw the whole thing through his eyes and his point of view.  The cognitive dissonance feel away and she could suddenly see the truth. 
 
This is why I believe it is so important that the crazy stuff, for example--the article in the Ensign that states that TMBs should put tithing before rent, utilities, etc. and Joseph Smith marrying young girls and other men's wives and Brigham Young commanding that apostates be "used up" (killed) and BKP's "Not all truth is useful" talk may be seen through different eyes as TBMs are forced to evaluate how their neighbors, neverMo bosses and the world sees all the crazinessthat they now justify.  When the world is shaking their heads over what TBMs have swallowed, they may be shaken out of some of the brainwashing.  That is my hope.  It was the only thing that ever brought my mom to her senses.  We certainly seem to be on a roll of good exposure this month.


   


Posted: 09 February 2014 07:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Next up: No more fast and testimony meetings.
 
Parents pulling little kids down to the seats...telling them never to bear testimony again...never hearing wind in a microphone, never hearing "i know the church is true, i know joseph smith is a prophet of god, i know the book of mormon is true.
 
Another "mormon tradition" bites the dust.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 09 February 2014 01:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]   

   
 
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Timber
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MsLed:
I found it irritating that they said repeatedly, "We can't know the genetic make-up of Lehi, Ishmael, and thir families." That's pretty disingenuous, especially when they go on at length about how DNA testing works and which phenomena affect DNA markers. Based on e BOM, we have a pretty good idea of Lehi's genetics. He and his family were Jewish, living in Jerusalem in 600 B.C. They must have lived there for generations because Laban, a prominent religious official, had records of their family that wre important to them. There has been a LOT of work done to identify Jewish genetic markers from different locations, particularly Jerusalem. There is also significant data on the DNA of people throughout the Americas. None of it supports migration from a Jewish population center in Israel.
 
Few scientists will ever say the data are conclusive on anything, because the very nature of the scientific method leaves them open to new information, unlike Mormons who claim sure knowledge of absolute truth. But reputable geneticists are NOT out there saying there's doubt about whether Native Americans descended from Jews 2700 years ago.
 
Of course, the other annoying thing is their failure to cite statement after statement by Joseph Smith and others about the Lamanites living in the northeastern U.S. Joseph frequently made statements about important Nephite events that had occurred wherever he happened to be, at times finding skeletons of important Nephites who had been buried there. He and others also described the Hill Cumorah as being full of gold and brass records, armor, swords, treasure, etc. for the Nephite time. How and why would it be there if the people living in that area were not Nephite/Lamanite but in fact some other group that coexisted with them?
 
Right on! To accept this new approach means ignoring so much LDS history, not to mention real science. Good summary.
 
What I find irritating is that TBMs are posting this to Facebook because in their minds it resolves the issue.


   


Posted: 09 February 2014 04:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]   

   
 
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MauEvig
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I'm surprised they haven't made some silly fantastical explanation such as "Heavenly Father" changed their DNA around. After all, accoding to Mormon literature (and I do consider the Book of Mormon to merely be a glorified fanfic of the Bible, not to say the Bible is any more real than the Book of Mormon is, the Bible was written 2,000 years ago and is not provable, and has been overly translated thousands of times since then and many records supposedly lost in regards to it) "Heavenly father" cursed them with darker skin.
Of course, I think it's quite silly to assume a different skin color is a curse, I actually think that humanity is blessed with different variations and skin tones. I'm just surprised they haven't used that as an excuse for their claims. We all know how the Mormons are racist in nature. Of course, they can't be nowadays, or people would frown upon them. Interesting that they are still sexist and get away with that, our society still has a long way to go there.
 


   


Posted: 12 February 2014 05:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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One of the oldest complete samples of infant DNA suggests the Native Americans ancestors did come across the land bridge which not longer exists.
 
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/ancient-baby-dna-suggests-tie-native-americans-22485941
 
 
Edited to add this article as well:
 
http://news.yahoo.com/prehistoric-boy-may-native-american-39-missing-39-192106068.html


   


            
 
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