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I’m a Mormon—and I’m Special!
Posted: 13 February 2014 09:08 AM [ Ignore ]
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seeking peace
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After an emotional exchange with family members for daring to post the Open Letter on my FaceBook account, I realized how special they all think they are. Mormons believe they are above civil dialogue. I have had college classes where we had to chat online, much like we do here at Post-Mo. We all know the rules up front. We all remain civil. We do not resort to name-calling. We try to state our opinions in a clear and succinct manner. Most Mormons will not even engage in an exchange of ideas. They are always on the defense and persecuted and "know" everything. It is this superiority complex that overrides everything. It is the same superiority and specialness that has the church releasing statements regarding the TSM Fraud case that include words like bizarre and unfounded. They act like they are above the law and do not have to answer to anything or anyone. And this trickles down to the membership who feel the same way. History has not always been kind to God's Chosen People. There is a bulliness aspect to it all. We are better than you is their overriding message. I see it in the LDS legislature that runs the state of Utah, I see it in neighbors and I see it in my own family. It took leaving the cult to see that I may have even exhibited it myself, at one time in life.
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It takes courage to grow up and turn out to be who you really are.—e.e.cummings
Posted: 13 February 2014 09:21 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Phillip (hagiasophia)
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seeking peace:
After an emotional exchange with family members for daring to post the Open Letter on my FaceBook account, I realized how special they all think they are. Mormons believe they are above civil dialogue. I have had college classes where we had to chat online, much like we do here at Post-Mo. We all know the rules up front. We all remain civil. We do not resort to name-calling. We try to state our opinions in a clear and succinct manner. Most Mormons will not even engage in an exchange of ideas. They are always on the defense and persecuted and "know" everything. It is this superiority complex that overrides everything. It is the same superiority and specialness that has the church releasing statements regarding the TSM Fraud case that include words like bizarre and unfounded. They act like they are above the law and do not have to answer to anything or anyone. And this trickles down to the membership who feel the same way. History has not always been kind to God's Chosen People. There is a bulliness aspect to it all. We are better than you is their overriding message. I see it in the LDS legislature that runs the state of Utah, I see it in neighbors and I see it in my own family. It took leaving the cult to see that I may have even exhibited it myself, at one time in life.
If you look back at Mormon history, hasn't it always been this way? Wherever the Mormons went they acted as if they were the chosen ones above the laws that governed everyone else. Joseph Smith being the great example of this. Normal rules about decent human behavior (like not marrying your friend's wife) never seem to apply to him.
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Posted: 13 February 2014 09:38 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
rain
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The idea that we are special and chosen appeals to some pretty basic needs . I think on many levels we still have 'lizard' brains. The idea of survival of the fittest being high on the list. What better way to feel safe, in an unsafe world, than knowing without a shadow of a doubt that we are better, smarter, more likely to be 'saved' than other homo-sapiens. The problem is, it just isn't true. All of us humans are vulnerable to the same problems and depending on where you were born the quality of life is very different. It is kind of sad that as Mormons we thought we were better than other people.
Posted: 13 February 2014 09:39 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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WinstonSmith
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seeking peace:
After an emotional exchange with family members for daring to post the Open Letter on my FaceBook account, I realized how special they all think they are. Mormons believe they are above civil dialogue. I have had college classes where we had to chat online, much like we do here at Post-Mo. We all know the rules up front. We all remain civil. We do not resort to name-calling. We try to state our opinions in a clear and succinct manner. Most Mormons will not even engage in an exchange of ideas. They are always on the defense and persecuted and "know" everything. It is this superiority complex that overrides everything. It is the same superiority and specialness that has the church releasing statements regarding the TSM Fraud case that include words like bizarre and unfounded. They act like they are above the law and do not have to answer to anything or anyone. And this trickles down to the membership who feel the same way. History has not always been kind to God's Chosen People. There is a bulliness aspect to it all. We are better than you is their overriding message. I see it in the LDS legislature that runs the state of Utah, I see it in neighbors and I see it in my own family. It took leaving the cult to see that I may have even exhibited it myself, at one time in life.
As frustrating as your point is, I always try to remember this simple statement: "you cannot blame them for who they are. After all they are a product of their environment."
I watch the first season of "Once Upon a Time" on Netfilx and thought, this is the perfect metaphor for TSCC. The all live in this town "Story Brooke" the world is oblivious to them and they are oblivious to the world. They all think they are living a normal life, when in fact they are living under a curse by the wicked queen. Little by little a few people become aware of their circumstances and events are set into motion that break the curse.
Stay tuned for next season of TSCC.
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Posted: 13 February 2014 11:30 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Tessa
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It's Joseph Smith trying to take Jewish "specialness...god loves us the most...as his chosen folks" and transplant it into his own made-up religion. Funny thing about god...he switches sides frequently...if past history is any indication.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 13 February 2014 01:49 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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seeking peace
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Thanks WinstonSmith--it is always good to remember that they are products of the environment. Unfortunately, this specialness is endemic to the whole culture. Just like in Animal Farm--"Everyone is special, but some are more special than others." Anyone who has been in a ward, knows that there is a group of "special" people--with just a few more perks than the rest. I recall being at Grand America Sunday Brunch in SLC, taking a much needed break from my three year nursery calling. It was quiet, a harp playing, lovely food and I was racked with guilt. A few minutes later a very large family invades the place. I listened as one man came and talked to the couple behind me. One a mission president-one a temple president-they were using this quiet Sunday to treat their families to a very expensive holiday brunch. Hmmm, must have had that "special" God annointing that allowed for such Sunday activities. I realized then that nursery leaders and those above them didn't live in the same world. TSM thinks he is obviously above the same laws that my husband must abide by in the business world--and he probably does it guilt free being a God an all.
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I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man—Thomas Jefferson
It takes courage to grow up and turn out to be who you really are.—e.e.cummings
Posted: 15 February 2014 12:11 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Lathspelle
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When I first started to look closely at Joe smith I noted 2 things.
1). He was attracted to the idea of *philosopher-kings* that he would have come across in his studies and from some of the educated men around him.
If You look this up , it will tell u all u need to know about why Joe did what he did and behaved as he did and why the following GA's of the church up to the present day think they can do no wrong. Unfortunatley this delusion spreads through to some of the members.
2). His own Mother reported that Joe frequently sat staring into space for hours on end....Human beings don't do that uneless they have a serious mental or physical disability.
Both of us (myself and husband) have added our names to your letter , hopefully we may scare the GA's enough to realise that not all people are submissive Utah TBM's...Hopefully
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Posted: 15 February 2014 11:25 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
Felix
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This whole topic reminds me of what turned me off to the church when I discovered the expanded church history. It really bothered me that Joseph Smith behaved as though he was above both religious and civil law. He behaved as though he WAS the law and anyone that questioned this notion was some how in sin and not in tune with the laws of God.
What about the “Golden Rule”; would he have been OK with some other mans sleeping with his wife Emma? I don't think so even if God had supposedly commanded it. I don't believe he could have bent his will in obedience to the things he expected of others. Faith is a fragile thing. Show me your faith by your walk, not your talk. His obedience to commandments and sacrifices often looked more like indulgences than sacrifices. Much of what he did and said comes across as displays of hubris and ego.
There is considerable evidence that he occasionally put out the order to have some one killed or “put out of the way” if they caused him or the church difficulty. I think this kind of thing was against the law. What about 12th article of faith “we believe in obeying, honoring and sustaining the law?”
He felt that in spite of the fact that he controlled the consumption of liquor and strictly forbade any displays of public drunkenness in Nauvoo, he himself could not be brought to account for his own occasional displays of public drunkenness as was demonstrated in the case of Almon Babbitt. The destruction of his press was condemned but yet he put out the order to have the Nauvoo Expositor destroyed.
His life was truly a demonstration of contradiction and double standards. It was all this that brought me to take a closer look where I found much more that the church had hidden. I left when I discovered the church was inherently dishonest when honesty didn't serve them. For me trust (honesty) is an integral and indispensable component of faith.
‹‹ "Your very life if neccessary . . ." Family first at a wedding? Ya think? ››
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Kate Hansen US Luge and Mormon missionary
Posted: 10 February 2014 10:44 PM [ Ignore ]
Life Rocks
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I saw this posted, an article in the Deseret News about some Russian athlete who had decided to be baptized because he met Kate Hansen.
I checked the article on line for the Deseret Nes, the headline read this...
For Olympian Kate Hansen, luge is more than just an athletic endeavor; it's a Mormon missionary opportunity
Let's see if I got this right.
Because Kate Hansen is LDS and can compete at an Olympic level, that's a good reason this comrade should meet with the missionaries and join the Church.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865595704
He'll give up his culture...his family...his freewill...his life to become a part of a Church that will soak him for his money...so he can be a "leader" in the Church that's run by incredibly clueless and dishonest people.
Makes me want to break out into song...
Oh that I were an angel...
And could shout to the world to beware of this awful scourage that's taken my wife and children from me.
Posted: 11 February 2014 05:44 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Dogzilla Joy
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There was some girl from Idaho who won a medal (snowboarding maybe?) and she had the PERFECT mormon accent. I would like a listing of athletes by religion please. That way we could tell who will preach to whom.
We could have a... a... wait for it ...
RELIGION OLYMPICS!
What events should there be?
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Posted: 11 February 2014 06:05 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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dovahkiyn
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So a Russian guy gets a burning in his bosom for a blond haired American and this makes the news?
Posted: 11 February 2014 06:17 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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We already had the "religion Olympics" when SLC hosted in 2002. Mitty Romney and his magic "underwear" touch. Working for all the rich cats.
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Posted: 11 February 2014 08:35 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
Life Rocks
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dovahkiyn:
So a Russian guy gets a burning in his bosom for a blond haired American and this makes the news?
I don't think the burning was in his bosom. Perhaps a little farther south?
I wonder if there's any way to contact this guy and warn him or is it too late.
Posted: 11 February 2014 09:47 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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If she keeps this up, she'll get arrested. Putin hates other churches...
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 11 February 2014 06:57 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
sak_pase
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Dogzilla Joy:
There was some girl from Idaho who won a medal (snowboarding maybe?) and she had the PERFECT mormon accent. I would like a listing of athletes by religion please. That way we could tell who will preach to whom.
We could have a... a... wait for it ...
RELIGION OLYMPICS!
What events should there be?
Cycling and biathlon would be dominated by Mormons.
Speedwalking would probably be won by JW's
Fencing would probably go to Catholics. Same with rowing
That's all I could come up with on the spur of a moment
Posted: 12 February 2014 07:51 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Dogzilla Joy
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Religion Olympics:
I was thinking of events more like:
• Bible scripture chase races.
• Sacrament passing, on rollerblades, blindfolded.
• Conversion dunking -- how many times can you be baptized before drowning?
• Speed conversions -- convert as many people as possible in the audience in a ten-minute time frame.
• Quad lifting -- how many quads can you bench press at one time?
You know, that sort of thing...
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Posted: 12 February 2014 09:30 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Hiker Daddy
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sak_pase:
Dogzilla Joy:
There was some girl from Idaho who won a medal (snowboarding maybe?) and she had the PERFECT mormon accent. I would like a listing of athletes by religion please. That way we could tell who will preach to whom.
We could have a... a... wait for it ...
RELIGION OLYMPICS!
What events should there be?
Cycling and biathlon would be dominated by Mormons.
Speedwalking would probably be won by JW's
Fencing would probably go to Catholics. Same with rowing
That's all I could come up with on the spur of a moment
The most stringent competition among religions may be the bullshit shoveling events
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Membership Growth Measued By Stakes - Searching for Post From January
Posted: 08 February 2014 10:08 AM [ Ignore ]
Piri Roza
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there was a great post on here about month ago that was a really good measurement of TSCC growth, as measured by the number of stakes. The premise was there had to be so many active priesthood holders in an area to do all the churchy stuff, so this was a good statistic.
I'm trying to find it again, can anybody point me to it?
Thanks!
Posted: 08 February 2014 10:17 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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You might be thinking of this thread
Where are the wards that are wasting away?
But I think you might be highly interested in this thread from some time ago.
Update on Church growth by (Net New Stakes)
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When the Saints Go Marching Out - of Control
Posted: 04 February 2014 11:35 AM [ Ignore ]
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Ironically, LDS Inc's paid appologists at FAIR Mormon Blog publish a much more fair and insightful take on the PostMo condiition than Newsweek, in their criticism of the Newsweek article, here.
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Posted: 04 February 2014 12:11 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
Ninon de Lenclos
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Kori:
Ironically, LDS Inc's paid appologists at FAIR Mormon Blog publish a much more fair and insightful take on the PostMo condiition than Newsweek, in their criticism of the Newsweek article, here.
I think the linked article was very fair ...especially considering the source.
Thanks, Kori!!!
Posted: 04 February 2014 01:39 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
Celestial Wedgie
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Wow, I'm really impressed with such a balanced perspective. Nice work to Roger Nicholson, the author.
Thanks, Kori, for bringing this here. There's no way I would have seen it on my own.
Posted: 04 February 2014 02:31 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Kori
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Credit goes to Jeff Ricks, who linked to it on FB first.
But I agree, great article and very fair and balanced.
I never thought the FAIR apologists were capable of that, but there's a first time for everything I suppose.
I think what's hinted at but never directly addressed by either article is the identity crisis we experience when we allow ourselves to admit, what is patently obvious to anybody who has not been brainwashed to believe Joseph's Myth, that we've spent our whole lives being bamboozled by a charlatan.
-
“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”
Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
When we gain the courage it takes to overcome the immense fear and pain of acknowledging to ourselves that we've been taken by a charlatan, we take power away from the pretend 'authorities' we grew up fearing and respecting. Finding out 'the Truth' may set us free from being exploited by charlatans, but that is no guarantee of happiness or well being.
Like my wife said when we left the church, "We committed social suicide when we left the church." Our Mormon family shunned us. Her own Mother treated us like we were dead. She actually told me, "It was like you died when you left the church. Having you leave the church was more traumatic for me than when my husband died."
I told her that was crazy. That it was just her ego talking. That she wanted to be able to brag to all of her friends about having this perfectly normal, beautiful, Eternal Mormon family and when we left, that illusion was shattered.
She denied it, but it was true.
But the reality is we all know what we were brainwashed to believe, that if you ever turn your back on Joseph's Myth, Satan will take control of your life and you are better off slitting your throat and spilling your bowels upon the ground, which is exactly the oath we all swore if we ever 'spoke ill of the Lord's annointed'. We were all indoctrinated to believe that we would be 'sons of perdition' destined for outer darkness in the hereafter, for denying the Holy Ghost. We are literally demonized by Mormons, who want to keep us as far away from influencing them as possible. We are often shunned by our Mormon neighbors. We become pariahs in our own community. Often it can lead to loss of family, destruction of marriages, friendships, jobs, our entire social circle.
My best friend growing up, is still Mormon. He was abused by our scout master, like most of the Mormon boys I grew up with. A few of them filed a lawsuit against the church. My best friend did not participate in the lawsuit, even though he and his Brother were victimized worse and for longer than many of the other victims. He didn't participate because he knew that he would destroy his life. His own Mother and Father, would disown him, his wife would divorce him, his children would hate him, his employer would fire him, his community would disown him, even though he was really a victim and really deserved the multi-million dollar settlement the other victims deserved less than him.
The attorney in that case, told me directly that he sees this all the time. He has filed lots of sexual abuse lawsuits against both the Catholic Church and the Mormon Church and he sees a huge difference between the behavior of Mormon families and Catholic families. When a Catholic comes forward with allegations against the Catholic Church of covering up sex abuse they suffered as children, their Catholic families rally around their family members and turn against the church. When the Mormon victims come forward and admit that they were abused and reported it to the church, who failed to take proper actions to protect them and other victims, their Mormon families turn on them and defend the Church. Why is there such a big difference?
I think that it has a lot to do with the fear that is instilled in Mormons through the Temple ceremony. They really fear that they will be damned if they EVER speak ill of the Lord's Annointed, or question authority.
That inability to question authority, makes the church a haven for sexual predators, who know they will be protected, just because they are priesthood holders and their victims are often blamed because of the deep sexual dysfunction within the culture of Mormonism, which treats sex as a taboo subject. They will stop at nothing to "Protect the Good Name of the Church" becauuse in so doing, they are really protecting their own egoes, which are profoundly tied to their Mormon identity, which they will defend like nothing else in their lives.
So naturally, when we sever our social connections by admitting the truth, we have huge unmet social needs. We often don't know how to make friends outside of the church because we've never had to do so. We tend to gravitate towards those who are like us, other Post Mormons, the only people who get how hard it is to deal with the identity crisis that comes from admitting you've built your whole life upon a fraud.
Naturally Post Mormons are going to want to make up for lost time when it comes to doing something the rest of society has always considered normal, like drinking.
Naturally Post Mormons are going to want to test the limits of their new freedom, especiallty having realized they've been sexually repressed their whole lives by a charlitan, who turned out to be one of the biggest perverts in history.
Rebuilding your identity at mid life is often a serious challenge.
Often times we don't know who we are outside of our Mormon identities.
It is a long process of redefining your self in real terms.
Leaving the church often means leaving your community.
On line communities like this one and social networks help to fill that void somewhat, but they are really no substitute for regular, real life, face to face relationships we had as Mormons. Participating on line with virtual communities like this, can isolate us from others in real life.
We all have social/emotional, intellectual and spiritual needs that do not just disappear when we allow ourselves to doubt the narrative we inherited.
We have to find ways to fulfill those needs in a balanced, healthy, wholistic way, in order to experience well being.
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“Lying is the sin that paves the way for every other sin.” Sam Harris
Posted: 04 February 2014 02:59 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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Yes, it was a fair and well-balanced blog post, but there are still little subtleties that rub me the wrong way. For instance, he says
Some new non-believers, on the other hand, sometimes wants to share their new-found “truth” with those they love in order to “get them out” of what they now mockingly refer to as “the cult”...
Yeah, I do refer to TSCC as a "cult". But it is not mockingly. No, I firmly believe that the chruch is a cult, perhaps not on the level of the Moonies or the Branch Davidians, but a cult nonetheless. The church scores high on various cult scorecards (with high scores pointing towards cultism) and I have read studies interpreting these scores. I know from my own experience of 50 years in the church how to score the church based on these criteria.
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Posted: 04 February 2014 03:35 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Matter Unorganized:
Yes, it was a fair and well-balanced blog post, but there are still little subtleties that rub me the wrong way. For instance, he says
Some new non-believers, on the other hand, sometimes wants to share their new-found “truth” with those they love in order to “get them out” of what they now mockingly refer to as “the cult”...
Yeah, I do refer to TSCC as a "cult". But it is not mockingly. No, I firmly believe that the chruch is a cult, perhaps not on the level of the Moonies or the Branch Davidians, but a cult nonetheless. The church scores high on various cult scorecards (with high scores pointing towards cultism) and I have read studies interpreting these scores. I know from my own experience of 50 years in the church how to score the church based on these criteria.
I don't like to use the term "cult," though I agree with you about similarities to similar branded organizations. Still, it's an inflammatory term that shuts Mormons down...best to tell them you feel the church was manipulative and have them engage and ask you why you believe that. Say cult and you immediately get dismissed.
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Posted: 04 February 2014 03:39 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Hitchen&#;s Razor:
Matter Unorganized:
Yes, it was a fair and well-balanced blog post, but there are still little subtleties that rub me the wrong way. For instance, he says
Some new non-believers, on the other hand, sometimes wants to share their new-found “truth” with those they love in order to “get them out” of what they now mockingly refer to as “the cult”...
Yeah, I do refer to TSCC as a "cult". But it is not mockingly. No, I firmly believe that the chruch is a cult, perhaps not on the level of the Moonies or the Branch Davidians, but a cult nonetheless. The church scores high on various cult scorecards (with high scores pointing towards cultism) and I have read studies interpreting these scores. I know from my own experience of 50 years in the church how to score the church based on these criteria.
I don't like to use the term "cult," though I agree with you about similarities to similar branded organizations. Still, it's an inflammatory term that shuts Mormons down...best to tell them you feel the church was manipulative and have them engage and ask you why you believe that. Say cult and you immediately get dismissed.
How is that any different from the reaction you'll get from any mild criticsm?
Answer? It's not. Say anything that's not in line and you get dismissed out of hand.
Posted: 04 February 2014 03:40 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Hitchen&#;s Razor: I don't like to use the term "cult," though I agree with you about similarities to similar branded organizations. Still, it's an inflammatory term that shuts Mormons down...best to tell them you feel the church was manipulative and have them engage and ask you why you believe that. Say cult and you immediately get dismissed.
True. Even though it meets every one of the criteria of a CULT the word is inflamatory and will trigger an automatic fight or flight instinct in Mormons if you use it, since they're used to having that accusation leveled at them by "Christians" whose group think behavior is no less cult like.
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Posted: 04 February 2014 03:47 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Matter Unorganized:
Yes, it was a fair and well-balanced blog post, but there are still little subtleties that rub me the wrong way. For instance, he says
Some new non-believers, on the other hand, sometimes wants to share their new-found “truth” with those they love in order to “get them out” of what they now mockingly refer to as “the cult”...
Yeah, I do refer to TSCC as a "cult". But it is not mockingly. No, I firmly believe that the chruch is a cult, perhaps not on the level of the Moonies or the Branch Davidians, but a cult nonetheless. The church scores high on various cult scorecards (with high scores pointing towards cultism) and I have read studies interpreting these scores. I know from my own experience of 50 years in the church how to score the church based on these criteria.
MU, I sensed the same subtleties---some of his tone implied that the ex-mormon or post mormon are somehow of lesser stature. It is a double standard that TSCC can activley recruit members, but if an ex-mo argues their case against TSCC they are labled as "trying to lead a member down a different path"; "being able to leave the church, but cannot leave the church alone." Well what about TSCC being able to leave the world, but cannot leave the world alone. Do they not try to convience people of other religions to go down a different path?
I perscribe to the definition that a cult is an organization whose actions and behaviors lead to the control of behavior, information, thought and emotion---therefore I do not call the church a cult out of mockery---it is an organization by way of it's policies, dogma and propganda meets the criteria of a cult. Many organizations perscribe to this type of control. You see it in in advertising, political parties and even the military.
One of my favorites is TSCC's attempt to control the world's preception of them---TSCC claims to be a Christian church because they believe on their version of Christ and because of this in their perception it is disengenuous for Christians to not consider TBMs Christian---but to TSCC the FLD church are not Mormons even though they believe JS to be the prophet of the restoration, JS translated the BoM, they testify of the BoM, they lay their hands on members heads and give PH blessings with a success rate that rivals the mainstream church.***sigh***
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“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” -Marcus Aurelius
Posted: 04 February 2014 03:48 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Kori
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Schyzm:
How is that any different from the reaction you'll get from any mild criticsm?
Answer? It's not. Say anything that's not in line and you get dismissed out of hand.
Not necessarily.
If you really want to get through to people, try to avoid triggering their fight or flight instinct, which just puts them on the defensive and shuts down any higher brain functions, like independent thought, empathy and ethics.
But it really depends upon your relationship with the person you're having the conversation with, how much they trust/respect you and your approach.
There are tried and true methods of getting through to people's more evolved brain functions, like Aristotle's rhetorical appeals, the Socratic Method and "How to Win Friends and Influence People."
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“Lying is the sin that paves the way for every other sin.” Sam Harris
Posted: 04 February 2014 05:00 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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Kori:
Schyzm:
How is that any different from the reaction you'll get from any mild criticsm?
Answer? It's not. Say anything that's not in line and you get dismissed out of hand.
Not necessarily.
If you really want to get through to people, try to avoid triggering their fight or flight instinct, which just puts them on the defensive and shuts down any higher brain functions, like independent thought, empathy and ethics.
But it really depends upon your relationship with the person you're having the conversation with, how much they trust/respect you and your approach.
There are tried and true methods of getting through to people's more evolved brain functions, like Aristotle's rhetorical appeals, the Socratic Method and "How to Win Friends and Influence People."
Exactly. I'm usually the first to call a spade a spade and generally quite blunt (a rough edge my wife wishes I sanded a little more). That said, I deal in words for a living and know that some will just shut people down. In the case of people in the church, they hear "non-christian" or "cult" and they make snap judgments about you - generally that you're an "anti" and that puts you in their outer darkness zone. It's much harder for them to lump you in with Satan's little angels if you take a more subtle approach - remember, passive aggressiveness and double-speak is like the oxygen you grow up on in the church - saying "it seems like there isn't a real opportunity to develop true agency" or "it seems like there is a lot omitted in an effort to make people feel comfortable" will trigger their "I can talk with this person about the gospel" instincts. Quite honestly, with Mormon's your going to catch quite a few more with sugar than flaming alcohol shots from hell.
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First Temple Experience
Posted: 25 January 2014 12:31 PM [ Ignore ]
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Cornelius
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Joined 2013-03-17
So my wife's unmarried TBM sister decided she is going to "take out her endowments" this week, I am the only non TBM on that side of the family so pretty much everyone but me will be attending with her.
Anyway, I am thinking about sending her a simple email while she is in the session saying something like "Hey congrats on going through the temple, if you ever have questions others feel too awkward to talk about then let me know, I am perfectly willing to answer questions." I doubt I will send it, I also doubt she would ever ask me anything if I did send it.
I just remember my first temple experience and it scared the sh!t out of me, during the prayer circle I thought CULT! CULT! CULT!. I wish I would have had someone willing to nicely tell me, "It's ok to be scared, it really is crazy." Instead no one said anything to me about any of it and I was off on my mission a few weeks later before I had time to do any questioning.
Signature
George Taylor: The way you humiliated me? All of you? YOU led me around on a LEASH!
Cornelius: That was different. We thought you were inferior.
George Taylor: Now you know better.
Posted: 25 January 2014 12:43 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
Free2Live
Long Timer
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Joined 2012-09-01
That is a great offer of open communication. I think it is a good idea. Although it may not be utilized any time soon because she is in a barrel and in fast water heading over the falls. The social thrill of maintaining social expectation at some point will diminish enough for a look back at what a crazy stunt that was and why did I do that irresponsible activity?
Signature
One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars time talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.
Posted: 25 January 2014 01:58 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
SuziQ
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Joined 2010-02-26
I think it would be wonderful for you to offer to talk to her about questions she is going to have. I wish I had had someone offer to talk about it when I went the first time because I was too afraid to ask any questions. I thought I wasn't worthy because I didn't understand it.
I kept thinking to myself -what does this mean?, what does that mean? where did all this come from?, is it in the scriptures? It took me decades to find out it was all fabricated in the mind of this sick and twisted individual .
Posted: 25 January 2014 11:36 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
mariejo
Member
RankRankRank
Joined 2013-06-18
I would have liked to get that email. The whole event is shrouded in mystery. I probably wouldn't have replied to someone who was not TBM (because prior to going to the temple for the first time I was the most TBM of my life) but at least there would have been some sort of validation at some level. Like you I also had that "oh! So THIS is why they call us a cult (among other things)" moment. And the "why does this look like a KKK circle?" moment. Only to be further baffled by my folks smiling from ear to ear like we were sitting front row at a Simon and Garfunkel concert. A buddy of mine did contact me briefly right before (he had just gotten home from his mission) and said "It's weird. Just focus on the spiritual feelings." So atleast I had that. "Holy eff he was right!" (And the freaky feelings were therefore interpreted as the Holy Spirit I guess.) Or how about the offer to leave right beforehand? That's not strange in the least.
Posted: 26 January 2014 06:06 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
Avatar
Tessa
Long Timer
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Joined 2008-08-12
Just say the congratz part, not the offer. If she has questions and no one in the "group" can answer them...she at least knows where to go.
Signature
”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 26 January 2014 06:40 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
Inexile
Member
RankRankRank
Joined 2012-03-09
I wouldn't make the offer. IT sounds too eager and might sound suspicious. I know how it is though. I really don't know what you could say. My wife and I were talking the other night about her first temple experience. I feel SO bad that I didn't really warn her about it. All she knew was that I didn't like the temple. That I hardly went to the temple except for special ocasssions(weddings or family/friend receiving their endowment). Naturally, she was very freaked out by the temple. I was only in the prayer circle 2 times and both times I thought I was going to faint cause it was so bizarre and weird.
Signature
“vast emptiness, nothing holy”-Bodhidharma
http://www.lumanwalters.blogspot.com
Posted: 26 January 2014 01:15 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
Nephi
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Joined 2012-01-27
The first experience is a great lesson on Mormon fashion sense.
Signature
Once you’ve tasted the grapes of wrath, you’ll never be satisfied with bananas.
No religion, no problems. Know religion, Know problems.
Posted: 26 January 2014 07:10 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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True to the Truth
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Joined 2011-01-16
mariejo:
Only to be further baffled by my folks smiling from ear to ear like we were sitting front row at a Simon and Garfunkel concert.
Strange - that's not what I remember everyone doing from ear to ear the first time I went to the temple.
tttt
Posted: 26 January 2014 07:34 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
Avatar
Aleut
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2009-04-17
True to the Truth:
mariejo:
Only to be further baffled by my folks smiling from ear to ear like we were sitting front row at a Simon and Garfunkel concert.
Strange - that's not what I remember everyone doing from ear to ear the first time I went to the temple.
tttt
Good one, TttT. Nothing like the pre-1990 temple rites.
Signature
“I’m having the best day of my life, and I owe it all to not going to Church!”—Homer Simpson, The Simpsons
“I don’t object to the concept of a deity, but I’m baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.”—Amy Farrah Fowler, The Big Bang Theory
“For the record, I do have genitals. They’re functional and aesthetically pleasing.”—Sheldon Cooper, The Big Bang Theory
All comments, statements, opinions, suggestions, and information expressed, or quotes cited, represent the exclusive viewpoint of Aleut at that point in time and are NOT meant to compel or represent agreement by the reader. Aleut will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use.
Posted: 27 January 2014 06:22 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
Avatar
Mrs. Jello Salad
Long Timer
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Joined 2007-08-06
Nephi:
The first experience is a great lesson on Mormon fashion sense.
Oh my gosh Nephi - true, so very true.
The only warning someone gave me is to check for knots. I said, "what?'
She later said that she warned me to check all my clothing for knots because she got stuck trying to undo a knot onetime during a session and looked up to see she was the last one standing and embarrassed herself sitting down feeling only "half dressed".
I laughed when I heard that because it seems like there is always a friend behind, to the side that always was willing to help you out should you get behind in dressing.
Signature
Posted: 27 January 2014 12:17 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
Nephi
Long Timer
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Joined 2012-01-27
and heaven help you if you are a little hard of hearing. The hushed tones and quiet talk used means if you get stuck someone helping won't talk loud enough for you to hear them clearly. Makes you go even slower - they futz around trying to help and things come to a halt while you and they work to get you caught up. Meanwhile - everyone in the session watches and knows it is YOU that is the problem...
Then again you might get lucky and have the live sessions in Manti and Salt Lake with some who believe they really are actors - or have some great accents. Much nicer than the dopey movies with music playing. Really, did God and his helpers form the stuff while listening to music? Probably made the Congo while listening to the Stones!
Signature
Once you’ve tasted the grapes of wrath, you’ll never be satisfied with bananas.
No religion, no problems. Know religion, Know problems.
‹‹ Emails from DW today.... Utah Transplants ››
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First Temple Experience
Posted: 25 January 2014 12:31 PM [ Ignore ]
Avatar
Cornelius
Member
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Joined 2013-03-17
So my wife's unmarried TBM sister decided she is going to "take out her endowments" this week, I am the only non TBM on that side of the family so pretty much everyone but me will be attending with her.
Anyway, I am thinking about sending her a simple email while she is in the session saying something like "Hey congrats on going through the temple, if you ever have questions others feel too awkward to talk about then let me know, I am perfectly willing to answer questions." I doubt I will send it, I also doubt she would ever ask me anything if I did send it.
I just remember my first temple experience and it scared the sh!t out of me, during the prayer circle I thought CULT! CULT! CULT!. I wish I would have had someone willing to nicely tell me, "It's ok to be scared, it really is crazy." Instead no one said anything to me about any of it and I was off on my mission a few weeks later before I had time to do any questioning.
Signature
George Taylor: The way you humiliated me? All of you? YOU led me around on a LEASH!
Cornelius: That was different. We thought you were inferior.
George Taylor: Now you know better.
Posted: 25 January 2014 12:43 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
Free2Live
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2012-09-01
That is a great offer of open communication. I think it is a good idea. Although it may not be utilized any time soon because she is in a barrel and in fast water heading over the falls. The social thrill of maintaining social expectation at some point will diminish enough for a look back at what a crazy stunt that was and why did I do that irresponsible activity?
Signature
One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars time talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.
Posted: 25 January 2014 01:58 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
SuziQ
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Joined 2010-02-26
I think it would be wonderful for you to offer to talk to her about questions she is going to have. I wish I had had someone offer to talk about it when I went the first time because I was too afraid to ask any questions. I thought I wasn't worthy because I didn't understand it.
I kept thinking to myself -what does this mean?, what does that mean? where did all this come from?, is it in the scriptures? It took me decades to find out it was all fabricated in the mind of this sick and twisted individual .
Posted: 25 January 2014 11:36 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
mariejo
Member
RankRankRank
Joined 2013-06-18
I would have liked to get that email. The whole event is shrouded in mystery. I probably wouldn't have replied to someone who was not TBM (because prior to going to the temple for the first time I was the most TBM of my life) but at least there would have been some sort of validation at some level. Like you I also had that "oh! So THIS is why they call us a cult (among other things)" moment. And the "why does this look like a KKK circle?" moment. Only to be further baffled by my folks smiling from ear to ear like we were sitting front row at a Simon and Garfunkel concert. A buddy of mine did contact me briefly right before (he had just gotten home from his mission) and said "It's weird. Just focus on the spiritual feelings." So atleast I had that. "Holy eff he was right!" (And the freaky feelings were therefore interpreted as the Holy Spirit I guess.) Or how about the offer to leave right beforehand? That's not strange in the least.
Posted: 26 January 2014 06:06 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
Avatar
Tessa
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2008-08-12
Just say the congratz part, not the offer. If she has questions and no one in the "group" can answer them...she at least knows where to go.
Signature
”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 26 January 2014 06:40 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
Inexile
Member
RankRankRank
Joined 2012-03-09
I wouldn't make the offer. IT sounds too eager and might sound suspicious. I know how it is though. I really don't know what you could say. My wife and I were talking the other night about her first temple experience. I feel SO bad that I didn't really warn her about it. All she knew was that I didn't like the temple. That I hardly went to the temple except for special ocasssions(weddings or family/friend receiving their endowment). Naturally, she was very freaked out by the temple. I was only in the prayer circle 2 times and both times I thought I was going to faint cause it was so bizarre and weird.
Signature
“vast emptiness, nothing holy”-Bodhidharma
http://www.lumanwalters.blogspot.com
Posted: 26 January 2014 01:15 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
Nephi
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2012-01-27
The first experience is a great lesson on Mormon fashion sense.
Signature
Once you’ve tasted the grapes of wrath, you’ll never be satisfied with bananas.
No religion, no problems. Know religion, Know problems.
Posted: 26 January 2014 07:10 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
Avatar
True to the Truth
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2011-01-16
mariejo:
Only to be further baffled by my folks smiling from ear to ear like we were sitting front row at a Simon and Garfunkel concert.
Strange - that's not what I remember everyone doing from ear to ear the first time I went to the temple.
tttt
Posted: 26 January 2014 07:34 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
Avatar
Aleut
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2009-04-17
True to the Truth:
mariejo:
Only to be further baffled by my folks smiling from ear to ear like we were sitting front row at a Simon and Garfunkel concert.
Strange - that's not what I remember everyone doing from ear to ear the first time I went to the temple.
tttt
Good one, TttT. Nothing like the pre-1990 temple rites.
Signature
“I’m having the best day of my life, and I owe it all to not going to Church!”—Homer Simpson, The Simpsons
“I don’t object to the concept of a deity, but I’m baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.”—Amy Farrah Fowler, The Big Bang Theory
“For the record, I do have genitals. They’re functional and aesthetically pleasing.”—Sheldon Cooper, The Big Bang Theory
All comments, statements, opinions, suggestions, and information expressed, or quotes cited, represent the exclusive viewpoint of Aleut at that point in time and are NOT meant to compel or represent agreement by the reader. Aleut will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use.
Posted: 27 January 2014 06:22 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
Avatar
Mrs. Jello Salad
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2007-08-06
Nephi:
The first experience is a great lesson on Mormon fashion sense.
Oh my gosh Nephi - true, so very true.
The only warning someone gave me is to check for knots. I said, "what?'
She later said that she warned me to check all my clothing for knots because she got stuck trying to undo a knot onetime during a session and looked up to see she was the last one standing and embarrassed herself sitting down feeling only "half dressed".
I laughed when I heard that because it seems like there is always a friend behind, to the side that always was willing to help you out should you get behind in dressing.
Signature
Posted: 27 January 2014 12:17 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
Nephi
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2012-01-27
and heaven help you if you are a little hard of hearing. The hushed tones and quiet talk used means if you get stuck someone helping won't talk loud enough for you to hear them clearly. Makes you go even slower - they futz around trying to help and things come to a halt while you and they work to get you caught up. Meanwhile - everyone in the session watches and knows it is YOU that is the problem...
Then again you might get lucky and have the live sessions in Manti and Salt Lake with some who believe they really are actors - or have some great accents. Much nicer than the dopey movies with music playing. Really, did God and his helpers form the stuff while listening to music? Probably made the Congo while listening to the Stones!
Signature
Once you’ve tasted the grapes of wrath, you’ll never be satisfied with bananas.
No religion, no problems. Know religion, Know problems.
‹‹ Emails from DW today.... Utah Transplants ››
Forum Home > Member Forums > The Community Forum > Thread
ExpressionEngine Discussion Forum - Version 2.1.2
Our next project
will be announced soon.
Tax exempt status.
anointed one
Edmond Dantès
Logged in: 2
Not logged in: 80
Logged in anonymous: 0
(Joined in last 24 hours)
Total members: 9408
Just when things start to go well.......
by finex
Wine was different in Jesus time
by finex
Depression After Resignation
by finex
Church asks activist group to reconsider plans to protest GC
by Brad (ZeeZrom)
"Katie Finds a Better Way": A Story for the "Friend" and Musicalkate (New Link)
by Brad (ZeeZrom)
Spin off Post "Cleaning House" - Genealogy
by quietlydifferent
Cleaning House
by blueazure
I finally bumped into some Mormon missionaries!
by Matter Unorganized
Scientology Ripped Family Apart-- Doubting (Could have an article like this on the news every night about Mormonism)
by Strong Free & Thankful
UPDATE on Seminary Problems
by Timber
Big Bang Theory Proven--Validation for this Scientist's Life's Work--Beautiful!
by blueazure
Knock on the Door and Bad Memory
by WinstonSmith
I could use some help!
by son of perdition
Looking for fellow lost souls
by Ninon de Lenclos
Mormon Church sending people DNA test kits but refusing to comment on results?
by OldSoul
Couldn't a real prophet find that plane?
by Bold Wish
I need help more than LDS corp.
by victim
Mormon kitsch
by huehuetenango
A Daring Statement by an 8-year-old
by haylee
This is Hard
by Tincan
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/38621/
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/38621/
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