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Church asks activist group to reconsider plans to protest GC  
Posted: 17 March 2014 05:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Life's A-bish
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How very quaint!!!
 
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-asks-activist-group-to-reconsider-general-conference-protest-plans
 
 


   


Posted: 17 March 2014 05:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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We value your contribution as sisters in Zion™.
 
Now get the hell back in the bedroom and start pumpin' out those babies!
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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 17 March 2014 07:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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hypatia
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It is beyond me why 50% of the LDS membership allows itself to be reduced to subordinate person status.
 
There is a place for you magnificent ladies in this world. That place is not the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
 
Time's a'wasting.
Get on with it and find your true destiny.
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“Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all.”
                      -Hypatia of Alexandria


   


Posted: 17 March 2014 07:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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how is this my life
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If these ladies would stretch a little more, they might wake up and have a chance of leaving what is a fraudulent organization built upon the sand, as opposed to being satiated with the "gift" of pretend magical powers.  This is why I struggle with this whole thing.  I'd really rather that they leave.  

   


Posted: 17 March 2014 07:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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how is this my life:
If these ladies would stretch a little more, they might wake up and have a chance of leaving what is a fraudulent organization built upon the sand, as opposed to being satiated with the "gift" of pretend magical powers.  This is why I struggle with this whole thing.  I'd really rather that they leave. 
 
I liked this comment. It reminds me of how I view Sunstone in general. They know the church corporation is manmade and a hoax yet many hang on. The notoriety of education and having an audience must be difficult to walk away from thus leaving the church ends their latest social illuminations and affirmations. That is my opinion.
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Posted: 17 March 2014 08:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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GraciesDaddy
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how is this my life:
If these ladies would stretch a little more, they might wake up and have a chance of leaving what is a fraudulent organization built upon the sand, as opposed to being satiated with the "gift" of pretend magical powers.  This is why I struggle with this whole thing.  I'd really rather that they leave. 
 
Perhaps, HITML, that it will take women receiving the penishood for them to fully realize that it's all a load of crap?  Once the wimmin are IN the Good Ol' Boyz Network they will finally and fully see they have been lied to... And are being "commanded" to lie to the rest of the membership.
 
I'm just kind of amazed that a planned protest was enough to generate a response from the TSCC PR Machine.  
 
I wonder what their placards will say? 
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Posted: 17 March 2014 09:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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4thNephite
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These women must either be non-believers who want to share in the pretend magic powers, or else they believe in a god who makes decisions based on picket signs. Neither position makes much sense to me, which is why this group will continue to be marginalized.
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“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.”—Heber C Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, Page 32


   


Posted: 18 March 2014 06:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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I can't quite put my finger on in it, but there is something 1984ish about that letter.
 
What I hate about letters like this is Ms. Moody says "Ordination of women to the priesthood is a matter of doctrine that is contrary to the Lord's revealed organization for His Church."---No source for this doctrine is provided.  Ironically in the temple endowment ceremony women are told they will become "Priestesses"---definition: a female priesthood holder.
 
The Bible makes it very clear, in the first few chapters of Genisis, as to why "sexism" is okay in TSCC.  I have taken the liberty to rewrite the 2nd Atricle of Faith to reflect TSCC true belief:
 
     2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's Transgression[; and Women are punished for Eve's transgression].
 
Least we forget BY, Mark E. Pertersen and Bruce R. McKonkie and their proclaimations for the doctrine of racial discrimination---or wait was it policy???  I have such a hard time seperating modern day proclaimed prophets teaching the philosophies of men mingled with scripture speaking as men and not as prophets.
 
I agree with the others posts, that this is a mute point in that it is all a fairytail.  However, I do applaud these women will stand up and fight the sexism in TSCC.
 
Finally, I would like to propose that "Temple Square" be renamed to "Little North Korea"---all in favor... 
 
 
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“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


Posted: 18 March 2014 06:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Mark D Larsen
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There is an aspect to this "protest" that fascinates me. I hope this doesn't come across as too sexist, but from my experience in the cult, females usually conform and cling to subservient, obedient, blind-faith membership even more adamantly than the power-wielding males. I have often wondered about that, and can only venture the theory that perhaps it is a result of Homo sapiens' more recent evolutionary heritage.
 
If the men were out on the tundra tracking mammoths, yet women were encumbered with the child raising, thus pretty much tied to the cave with the rest of the clan, females might have been naturally selected for their social skills, adherence, cooperation, conformity, amiability, loyalty. A woman who asserted strong individuality, non-conformity, or even rebelliousness... well, when her husband returned from the hunt, he might find that she --and their offspring-- had been "thinned from the herd."
 
Dunno. Just a theory, of course. But I do find it intriguing that these women are protesting the cult's practices, and yet... they want to retain its social support, security, community, membership. In other words, they recognize and want to change one of the cult's obvious problems, yet... still want to remain in the cave.
 
Personally, I have a hard time understanding that. It is similar to what Joanna Brooks states --which frankly irks me. But I suppose that is because of my own male genetic heritage...?


   


Posted: 18 March 2014 07:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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Mark D Larsen:
There is an aspect to this "protest" that fascinates me. I hope this doesn't come across as too sexist, but from my experience in the cult, females usually conform and cling to subservient, obedient, blind-faith membership even more adamantly than the power-wielding males. I have often wondered about that, and can only venture the theory that perhaps it is a result of Homo sapiens' more recent evolutionary heritage.
 
If the men were out on the tundra tracking mammoths, yet women were encumbered with the child raising, thus pretty much tied to the cave with the rest of the clan, females might have been naturally selected for their social skills, adherence, cooperation, conformity, amiability, loyalty. A woman who asserted strong individuality, non-conformity, or even rebelliousness... well, when her husband returned from the hunt, he might find that she --and their offspring-- had been "thinned from the herd."
 
Dunno. Just a theory, of course. But I do find it intriguing that these women are protesting the cult's practices, and yet... they want to retain its social support, security, community, membership. In other words, they recognize and want to change one of the cult's obvious problems, yet... still want to remain in the cave.
 
Personally, I have a hard time understanding that. It is similar to what Joanna Brooks states --which frankly irks me. But I suppose that is because of my own male genetic heritage...?
 
No that's a pretty damn good introspection you got going on there.  The Queens of Mormonism feel so awfully suppressed for so may years now THEY want to become in charge (or equals) in a lying and totally fuckedup religion.  That's like, completely wacked!
 
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Posted: 18 March 2014 07:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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hypatia
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Mark D Larsen:
There is an aspect to this "protest" that fascinates me. I hope this doesn't come across as too sexist, but from my experience in the cult, females usually conform and cling to subservient, obedient, blind-faith membership even more adamantly than the power-wielding males. I have often wondered about that, and can only venture the theory that perhaps it is a result of Homo sapiens' more recent evolutionary heritage.
 
If the men were out on the tundra tracking mammoths, yet women were encumbered with the child raising, thus pretty much tied to the cave with the rest of the clan, females might have been naturally selected for their social skills, adherence, cooperation, conformity, amiability, loyalty. A woman who asserted strong individuality, non-conformity, or even rebelliousness... well, when her husband returned from the hunt, he might find that she --and their offspring-- had been "thinned from the herd."
 
Dunno. Just a theory, of course. But I do find it intriguing that these women are protesting the cult's practices, and yet... they want to retain its social support, security, community, membership. In other words, they recognize and want to change one of the cult's obvious problems, yet... still want to remain in the cave.
 
Personally, I have a hard time understanding that. It is similar to what Joanna Brooks states --which frankly irks me. But I suppose that is because of my own male genetic heritage...?
 
My take is that a few  LDS women have had a peek outside of the cave and would like to take a couple of more steps and see where the real light is coming from. They would also like to have their sisters join the magnificence of the light they see.
 
They have one foot out and one foot in, so to speak.
 
Most of the women in the LDS Church are perfectly content to remain shackled inside the cave and believe the light's shadows are what the men-folk tell them it is.
 
It's safer.
There are no risks.
 
In fact, they and those who are in control will vilify the seekers who have had their epiphanies.
 
LDS intellectuals who dared question already had a very public smack-down once in the 1990's. It will be interesting to see how this movement fares.
 
By-the-by, the scenario I just described is directly connected to Plato's view of being born and entrenched in a thought process he describes in "The Cave,".
 
Love that piece of writing.
 
 
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“Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all.”
                      -Hypatia of Alexandria


   


Posted: 18 March 2014 09:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
blueazure
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Mark D Larsen:
There is an aspect to this "protest" that fascinates me. I hope this doesn't come across as too sexist, but from my experience in the cult, females usually conform and cling to subservient, obedient, blind-faith membership even more adamantly than the power-wielding males. I have often wondered about that, and can only venture the theory that perhaps it is a result of Homo sapiens' more recent evolutionary heritage.
 
If the men were out on the tundra tracking mammoths, yet women were encumbered with the child raising, thus pretty much tied to the cave with the rest of the clan, females might have been naturally selected for their social skills, adherence, cooperation, conformity, amiability, loyalty. A woman who asserted strong individuality, non-conformity, or even rebelliousness... well, when her husband returned from the hunt, he might find that she --and their offspring-- had been "thinned from the herd."
 
Dunno. Just a theory, of course. But I do find it intriguing that these women are protesting the cult's practices, and yet... they want to retain its social support, security, community, membership. In other words, they recognize and want to change one of the cult's obvious problems, yet... still want to remain in the cave.
 
Personally, I have a hard time understanding that. It is similar to what Joanna Brooks states --which frankly irks me. But I suppose that is because of my own male genetic heritage...?
 
 I think it's important to recognize that to whatever extent we talk about differences between men and women in the church, it only pertains to men and women who choose to join or remain in the church. They are not indicative of general (if there is any such thing) male/female differences (to whatever extent there are innate differences). This is why it is so frustrating that the church says things like "your position is extreme" and "the vast majority of LDS women disagree with you". First, how do they know? Did they take a poll? Maybe so, but I never filled one out and I wouldn't trust their surveys anyway. And second, even if that's true, SO MANY WOMEN have left precisely because they were tired of being treated this way. And many more never joined in the first place because it was so unappealing to join such an organization. It may be the case (and I have no idea, because I don't know the statistics on men vs. women leaving, men vs. women converting, etc) that more women leave. Or it may be that more women want to leave, but due to financial dependence on their husbands (as encouraged by LDS culture) they don't want to risk upsetting the marriage so they stay LDS and try to make the best of it. These are just guesses, though. But I do think the church needs to at least recognize that for women who leave, gender inequality is a BIG FREAKIN' DEAL. It sucks to be treated less-than, especially for no reason (seriously, why can't I have the priesthood? It says RIGHT IN THE TEMPLE CEREMONY, AS WELL AS MY PATRIARCHIAL BLESSING, "PRIESTESS".) 


   


Posted: 18 March 2014 09:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
Curious NeverMo
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It's the lead headline on Huffington Post's Religions page.  Article here. 

   


Posted: 18 March 2014 12:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
finex
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The thing that jumped right on my face from that LDS PR letter is that they've reserved areas for "freedom of speech" outside the Temple Square. Now I thought that freedom of speech is constitutional and everyone is free to express themselves anywhere in public as they choose. Does this letter from the LDS PR really state that they've limited the freedom of speech during the GC and are thus violating the constitution? 

   


Posted: 18 March 2014 01:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith:

Ironically in the temple endowment ceremony women are told they will become "Priestesses"---definition: a female priesthood holder.
  
blueazure:

It sucks to be treated less-than, especially for no reason (seriously, why can't I have the priesthood? It says RIGHT IN THE TEMPLE CEREMONY, AS WELL AS MY PATRIARCHIAL BLESSING, "PRIESTESS".) 
 
 I was going to start a whole new thread on this very topic, female priesthood. DW mentioned it to me as we discussed an entirely unrelated topic (which I actually can't recall right now, oddly enough). Anyway, she said she thought that the endowment ceremony at least implied that faithful Mo ladies would get the priesthood someday. I can't see why you'd need it as a goddess or god (what's the point by then?), but I'm not the one writing the LDS script...
 
Anyway, since other people infer the same teaching, does anyone know of any additional info that goes with that reference in the endowment? Does the church actually say what holding the priesthood in the great hereafter would look like?


   


Posted: 18 March 2014 04:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
scotmama3
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I am a educated (Ph.D. in science) and uppity woman.  The last thing I would want is to be a priest in the LDS church.  The whole foundation of the church is a ridiculous fable about gold plates and translating them with a rock in a hat.  That wonderful idea is supplemented by a book that is full of fanciful wars and imaginative migrations.  What thinking person would want to have anything to do with such nonsense.  I left and I am glad.  If my sisters are willing to fight for the priesthood in such an organization, I wish them the wisdom to reexamine their efforts. 

   


Posted: 18 March 2014 04:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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DrW
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scotmama:
I am a educated (Ph.D. in science) and uppity woman.  The last thing I would want is to be a priest in the LDS church.  The whole foundation of the church is a ridiculous fable about gold plates and translating them with a rock in a hat.  That wonderful idea is supplemented by a book that is full of fanciful wars and imaginative migrations.  What thinking person would want to have anything to do with such nonsense.  I left and I am glad.  If my sisters are willing to fight for the priesthood in such an organization, I wish them the wisdom to reexamine their efforts.
 
Great to hear what an educated female with a science background, who is not shy about speaking her mind, thinks of all this.
 
Turns out to be pretty much the same as an eductated male with a science background. No real surprise there, I guess.


   


Posted: 18 March 2014 04:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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DrW
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scotmama:
I am a educated (Ph.D. in science) and uppity woman.  The last thing I would want is to be a priest in the LDS church.  The whole foundation of the church is a ridiculous fable about gold plates and translating them with a rock in a hat.  That wonderful idea is supplemented by a book that is full of fanciful wars and imaginative migrations.  What thinking person would want to have anything to do with such nonsense.  I left and I am glad.  If my sisters are willing to fight for the priesthood in such an organization, I wish them the wisdom to reexamine their efforts.
 
Great to hear what an educated female with a science background, who is not shy about speaking her mind, thinks of all this.
 
Turns out to be pretty much the same as an educated male with a science background. No real surprise there, I guess.


   


Posted: 18 March 2014 05:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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Penguin:
WinstonSmith:

Ironically in the temple endowment ceremony women are told they will become "Priestesses"---definition: a female priesthood holder.
  
blueazure:

It sucks to be treated less-than, especially for no reason (seriously, why can't I have the priesthood? It says RIGHT IN THE TEMPLE CEREMONY, AS WELL AS MY PATRIARCHIAL BLESSING, "PRIESTESS".) 
 
 I was going to start a whole new thread on this very topic, female priesthood. DW mentioned it to me as we discussed an entirely unrelated topic (which I actually can't recall right now, oddly enough). Anyway, she said she thought that the endowment ceremony at least implied that faithful Mo ladies would get the priesthood someday. I can't see why you'd need it as a goddess or god (what's the point by then?), but I'm not the one writing the LDS script...
 
Anyway, since other people infer the same teaching, does anyone know of any additional info that goes with that reference in the endowment? Does the church actually say what holding the priesthood in the great hereafter would look like?
 
I believe the priesthood is required to create "worlds without end". But that is actually one of my biggest questions. The church is so focused on getting its members there, but there is really no word on what actually happens in mormon heaven, other than creating worlds, making babies in perpetuity, being a god and answering the prayers of all your whiny children. Maybe you get to cause famines, plagues and pestilence. Kill your children! Yeah, that's the ticket!
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You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 18 March 2014 09:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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victim
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Life&#;s A-bish:
How very quaint!!!
 
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-asks-activist-group-to-reconsider-general-conference-protest-plans
 
 
 
Apostate: Renunciation/criticism of, or opposition to, a person's present/former religion.
 
Translation of church position: Your beloved, self-proclaimed profits/inspired PR Department are very concerned about any problematic image of division projected at general conference between presiding, priesthood authorities/rebellious women who have had enough of unbridled, rampant misogyny in the church! We, as your profits, won't tolerate any disturbance that would compromise the integrity of our conference happy face façade – the show must go on unabated, as orchestrated by the brethren!
 
In addition, we're concerned that a negative image of the church could affect our sacred bottom line! Future, corporate, for profit, commercial real estate ventures could be compromised by any wanton display of contention! We will not tolerate such a disturbance on church property! Obey instinctively, high step in unison/hit the road ladies!  
 
Furthermore, get this sisters… you always have been/will remain subservient members in our fraternal organization! And, if you think for one minute we're hard nosed now… take a look at evidence of more viral commentary from past/present church leaders who have gone on record with belligerent/threatening utterances directed specifically at apostasy in the church! Remember, the mormons have had a long, significant, negative experience dealing with apostasy throughout their sordid history – mind you, for good reason!
 
 
Apostle Boyd K. Packer:
“Remember: when you see the bitter apostate, you do not see only an absence of light, you see also the presence of darkness. Do not spread disease germs.”
- Apostle Boyd K. Packer, “The Mantle is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect,” speech given August 1981 at BYU, Brigham Young University Studies, Summer 1981.
 
 
Prophet Brigham Young:
“I say, rather than that apostates should flourish here, I will unsheath my bowie knife, and conquer or die. Now, you nasty apostates, clear out, or judgment will be put to the line, and righteousness to the plummet. If you say it is right, raise your hands. Let us call upon the Lord to assist us in this, and every good work.”
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, p. 83.
 
 
Sidney Rigdon:
 
“...it was the imperative duty of the Church to obey the word of Joseph Smith, or the presidency, without question or inquiry, and that if there were any that would not, they should have their throats cut from ear to ear.”
Sidney Rigdon letter to Apostle Orson Hyde, October 21, 1844, also, in Nauvoo Neighbor, December 4, 1844.
 
 
John D. Lee:
 
“Punishment by death is the penalty for refusing to obey the orders of the Priesthood. I knew of many men being killed in Nauvoo by the Danites. It was then the rule that all enemies of the Prophet Joseph should be killed, and I knew of many a man who was quietly put out of the way by the orders of Joseph and his apostles while the church was there.”
- Elder John D. Lee (1812 – 1877), Danite and adopted son of Brigham Young, John D. Lee Diaries.
 
 
We see an instant, very vidid snap shot of so-called, mainstream mormonism in full bloom exploiting the fairer, more vulnerable sex in the kingdom! Today, women in the 21st century of our world are still getting a full dose of abuse with both barrels smoking! And yes, you're right, the mormon, ecclesiastical nuthouse is scary! Blatant, profitic, misogynistic, ego- megalomania displayed by contemporary presiding profits of the alleged one true church on earth should be sufficient evidence to cause rebellious, questioning women to abandon any desire to acquire the mythical, mormon priesthood from present day charlatans of jo smith jr., who, like jo himself – have no legitimate claim to any variant of Godly, priesthood authority! One might ask, how can these well documented, false profits of false religion pass on what they themselves don’t possess? Ladies, you’re almost there… my best to each of you on your journey out of mormonism! victim


   


Posted: 19 March 2014 12:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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Kori
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I don't get it. 
 
If women don't like the way women are treated in
 
The Doomsday CULT of Joseph's Myth
 
Perhaps they should vote with their feet and find a better alternative. 
There are 35,000 different sects of Christianity alone, most of which don't relegate women to breeding stock and 2nd class citizens, nearly to the extent  of Joseph's Myth. 
I mean seriously, one look at D&C 132 should be enough to convince you of the fact that Joseph's Myth thought women were nothing more than breeding stock, posessions, to be traded amongst 'worthy' men, like himself of course.  
 
 
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Posted: 19 March 2014 06:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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Mark D Larsen
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josephs myth:
No that's a pretty damn good introspection you got going on there.  The Queens of Mormonism feel so awfully suppressed for so may years now THEY want to become in charge (or equals) in a lying and totally fuckedup religion.  That's like, completely wacked!
 
 
Well... like I said... I suppose that my own male genome dampens my ability to understand the protesters' perspective.
 
I mean, they have apparently researched the cult sufficiently to conclude that "Priestesses" should be as legitimate as "Priests." Yet I would hope that, in the process, they would have also researched what a few National Geographic publications have to say about pre-Colombian peoples.
 
Why would they want to co-administer a blatant lie? Is the social acceptance, security, and comfort in the cult's cave more important than... truth?


   


Posted: 19 March 2014 09:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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finex:
The thing that jumped right on my face from that LDS PR letter is that they've reserved areas for "freedom of speech" outside the Temple Square. Now I thought that freedom of speech is constitutional and everyone is free to express themselves anywhere in public as they choose. Does this letter from the LDS PR really state that they've limited the freedom of speech during the GC and are thus violating the constitution?
 
 The right to free speech applies against goverment.  Temple Square is private property, so strictly speaking there is no violation of constitutional rights.  In this case, "free speech zones" are a kind of PR move, where protesting is allowed where, basically, the general public is not exposed to the protesters.
 
You see this at the major political conventions every presidential election year. 
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

Phillip K. Dick


   


Posted: 19 March 2014 10:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
finex:
The thing that jumped right on my face from that LDS PR letter is that they've reserved areas for "freedom of speech" outside the Temple Square. Now I thought that freedom of speech is constitutional and everyone is free to express themselves anywhere in public as they choose. Does this letter from the LDS PR really state that they've limited the freedom of speech during the GC and are thus violating the constitution?
 
 The right to free speech applies against goverment.  Temple Square is private property, so strictly speaking there is no violation of constitutional rights.  In this case, "free speech zones" are a kind of PR move, where protesting is allowed where, basically, the general public is not exposed to the protesters.
 
You see this at the major political conventions every presidential election year. 
 
Except the "freedom of speech" areas are outside temple square? As in, not on church property? On the public, city sidewalks, where any old joe can protest whatever he wants?
 
How kind of them! 
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Posted: 19 March 2014 12:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
Celestial Wedgie
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[ Wedgie playing devil's advocate:]
 
Why wouldn't active LDS women want the priesthood? Whether the priesthood has any celestial power, the LDS corporation controls billions of dollars and millions of people.  There's a lot of power up for grabs and only those with the priesthood are allowed to play.
 
So I say to the women trying to coax the LDS church to grant all adults: Go for it!


   


Posted: 19 March 2014 05:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
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Timber
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
finex:
The thing that jumped right on my face from that LDS PR letter is that they've reserved areas for "freedom of speech" outside the Temple Square. Now I thought that freedom of speech is constitutional and everyone is free to express themselves anywhere in public as they choose. Does this letter from the LDS PR really state that they've limited the freedom of speech during the GC and are thus violating the constitution?
 
 The right to free speech applies against goverment.  Temple Square is private property, so strictly speaking there is no violation of constitutional rights.  In this case, "free speech zones" are a kind of PR move, where protesting is allowed where, basically, the general public is not exposed to the protesters.
 
You see this at the major political conventions every presidential election year. 
 
Private property? Do members of the church have a claim on what can take place on this "private" property? Who technically "owns" it?


   


Posted: 19 March 2014 05:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]   

   
 
Ninon de Lenclos
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Timber:
 
Private property? Do members of the church have a claim on what can take place on this "private" property? Who technically "owns" it?
 
Thomas S. Monson...is my understanding.
 
He legally owns everything.


   


Posted: 19 March 2014 08:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]   

   
 
sl-skipper
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How quaint indeed! So Salt Lake City has a Free-speech zone in the vicinity of the Conference Center.
 
This is America, people! The whole country is a free-speech zone!!!


   


Posted: 19 March 2014 09:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Timber:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
finex:
The thing that jumped right on my face from that LDS PR letter is that they've reserved areas for "freedom of speech" outside the Temple Square. Now I thought that freedom of speech is constitutional and everyone is free to express themselves anywhere in public as they choose. Does this letter from the LDS PR really state that they've limited the freedom of speech during the GC and are thus violating the constitution?
 
 The right to free speech applies against goverment.  Temple Square is private property, so strictly speaking there is no violation of constitutional rights.  In this case, "free speech zones" are a kind of PR move, where protesting is allowed where, basically, the general public is not exposed to the protesters.
 
You see this at the major political conventions every presidential election year. 
 
Private property? Do members of the church have a claim on what can take place on this "private" property? Who technically "owns" it?
 
Ultimately, all church property is owned by the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, which is controlled by whoever is the current prophet.  Individual members have no legal ownership in or control of any church property.
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

Phillip K. Dick


   


Posted: 19 March 2014 09:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Here's more than anyone probably wants to know about free speech zones...
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zone
 
 
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

Phillip K. Dick


   


Posted: 20 March 2014 10:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]   

   
 
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GraciesDaddy
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Mark D Larsen:
<snippedawholebunch>
 
Personally, I have a hard time understanding that. It is similar to what Joanna Brooks states --which frankly irks me. But I suppose that is because of my own male genetic heritage...?
 
Personally, I think That Brooks Woman is Zelda Fitzgerald Crazy and belongs in an institution.
 
And heavily medicated. 
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The above post is merely the experience, observation and perspective of a NeverMo, offered in support of the members of PostMormon.org

“Nolite te bastardes carborundorum” aka: “Don’t let the bastards grind you down.” — “The Handmaid’s Tale” ...Margaret Atwood

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Posted: 20 March 2014 02:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]   

   
 
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FreeLive:
how is this my life:
If these ladies would stretch a little more, they might wake up and have a chance of leaving what is a fraudulent organization built upon the sand, as opposed to being satiated with the "gift" of pretend magical powers.  This is why I struggle with this whole thing.  I'd really rather that they leave. 
 
I liked this comment. It reminds me of how I view Sunstone in general. They know the church corporation is manmade and a hoax yet many hang on. The notoriety of education and having an audience must be difficult to walk away from thus leaving the church ends their latest social illuminations and affirmations. That is my opinion.
 
 I'm not sure what this thread has to do with Sunstone, but having participated in Sunstone, the ExMormon Conference, the Southern Utah PostMormon Chapter and this board for many years, I have found each to offer support, social connection and intellectual stimulation.  I fail to see how an attempt to rank these groups, considering some less legitimate than others, is helpful.  I have had some of the most stimulating discussions of my life at Sunstone, and I am an athiest who would be content to see LDS Inc implode.  "Sunstone" folks include just about everyone, from thinking, but active Mormons, to folks like me; from those with "testimonies" to those who are quite certain Darwin described life more accurately than the "prophets" did.  It's a pretty broad spectrum to view "in general."
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Spin off Post “Cleaning House” - Genealogy  
Posted: 19 March 2014 03:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Mrs. Jello Salad
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I mentioned in the other thread that after my Dad passed we donated all my parents church books to the ward.  However, in their trust, my parents left all of their genealogy records to me.
 
My Dad came from a non-LDS family so he was the only one to trace his family tree.  My Mom was from a TBM family so there are dozens doing the genealogy research.
 
So here I am with all their books, pedigree charts, etc.
 
I will never use it for temple work.  I know that they submitted a lot of it for that purpose.  My parents spent thousands of hours in their research.  They traveled many thousands of miles to get information from older family members.
 
I consider it more family memorabilia, archives, etc. than anything.  Already one of my cousins on my Dad's side asked for copies of some of it.
 
So - I'm asking the forum.
 
Do you consider genealogy and pedigree charts that may have been submitted for temple work "church stuff" or more family memories to retain for posterity?
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Posted: 19 March 2014 03:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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P.S. - all of their work was done pre-internet!
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Posted: 19 March 2014 04:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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True to the Truth
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Mrs. Jello Salad:
Do you consider genealogy and pedigree charts that may have been submitted for temple work "church stuff" or more family memories to retain for posterity?
 
Geneology that you do yourself can be interesting.  Geneology that's already been done, not so much.  So I don't think posterity would be interested.
 
If it's stuff that's not all available on the internet these days, I'd give it to some interested (proabably still-LDS) relative if you know such a person.
 
tttt


   


Posted: 19 March 2014 04:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
Destroyingangl
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That pre-internet clause actually gives it more validity and accuracy in my mind.   With the internet, people seem to assume whatever they find on there is accurate and true regardless of the source.  You would think TSCC would warn members to avoid the internet just like they do about all of the "anti-sites", but they seem to be ok with people doing whatever with their genealogy as long as it gets them to the Temple.  
 
Anyway, my opinion is that it isn't a church thing and worth keeping.  I was interested in genealogy before I joined the Church and remain very active in doing genealogy after leaving.  It is a hobby for millions of people, most of which are not LDS.  I have non-lds family that have taken an interest in it strictly out of curiousity.  Most people that do genealogy never submit it to the Church and just do it because they like to know where they came from (for reals, not from some Sky Daddy/Mommy).  If you don't want the records, I would either give them to family or see if there is a library or historical society in the family's hometown that may want the information.  But, holding onto that information isn't the same as holding onto books on Church doctrine in my opinion.  One can cause harm to your family where the other can make for a fun rainy day activity. 
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Posted: 19 March 2014 06:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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Perhaps it could be useful for ancestry.com - I've never been to the website so I don't know how it works, you might end up doing all the work yourself or you may not want to, but that's a consideration.
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Posted: 19 March 2014 06:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
Piri Roza
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I resigned from LDS.morg, but I'm from a TBM family with lots...and lots....and lots of cousins "doing" my geneology.
 
We researched my husband's family (catholic, in this country just a few generations) before we went to Europe and it was fascinating.  We learned all kinds of interesting things and had a great time doing it.
 
We used LDS.morg's library in downtown SLC for some of our research.   I don't know if you live in Utah or not, but you can use all the various sites from ancestry.com to lots of others free at the LDS.morg's library downtown.  I don't intend to give them the information...I'm not sure how they really get it from you and submit names for temple work.  I definitely won't aid and abet them in that.  
 
I have other ex-mo and nevermo friends who enjoy researching their ancestry too.
 
I would keep your parents research and cherish it if I were you.  If you want to use "the church's" resources to expand your research, that's kind of fun too and they are very helpful, although very dopey and Mormon when you go to their research library.
 
It was kind of funny when my nevermo husband said, "This has been great!  When are we going to do YOUR family research?"  and I said, "oh, honey, I don't even have to look....I'm sure it's done to way, way back."  He said "is not" and without knowing what I would really find, I pulled up a long, long family tree that some my cousins had already completed.
 
At any rate.....you can value your heritage for the real reasons it should be valued and rather than as a name to be dead dunked.   
 


   


Posted: 19 March 2014 08:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
quietlydifferent
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Family history stuff can be cool. Knowing about your ancestors is, imo, a good thing. Plus, it can be interesting to find out about the kind of stuff people tried to pull back in the day. My grandfather thinks he has his line traced back to Adam but I know better. I remember him and my sister who was really into it for a while that we could trace our lines back to Troy and the kings of the OT. The confusion comes from how we can trace our line back to various Scandinavian royal families (Denmark and Sweden) and how they claim to be decended from various gods and also, to show their rule was legitimate, from the house of Judah (the tribe given the right to rule). Snorri, a poet and politician a few hundred years ago, gave a theory that the various gods of the North were actually heroes from Troy who fled after the Trojan war. There hasn't been a shred of proof to back this theory up and we can honestly say that Snorri was wrong about that. I don't intend to do any temple work for my ancestors but it is still fun to know about them. I would say keep it if it interests you and give it to someone whois interested if you aren't. 

   


Posted: 20 March 2014 07:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Mrs. Jello Salad
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Thank you all for your perspectives.
 
I actually went into some of the records last night and if you weren't LDS you wouldn't even know that most of it was preparing to be submitted for temple work.
 
I intend to keep it for a couple of reasons:
 
- some of the pedigree charts were filled out in hand by my Dad or Mom and its cool to see their handwriting (in a world that types most everything)
 
- a few of the pedigree charts have pictures of the people - 2nd and 3rd generation back (when there was actually cameras to take photos) - so its cool to see what some of them looked like
 
- many of the pedigree charts were typed on an old manual typewriter my Dad kept that is a real treasure
 
So for those reasons alone and knowing how much work they put into the "hobby" I will keep them and share them with family as they request or need them.
 
The temple work part of this does not interest me at all and won't be continued.  So interesting to see all the ancestors that came over on the Mayflower - lived in Salem during the witch trials!  Cool stuff!  Love that I have a relative that was actually one of King Henry the VIII wives, etc. 
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