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ARE Mormons Christians?
Posted: 11 June 2007 04:27 PM [ Ignore ]
skeptic
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You have to love UofU's 'Radio West' as it often addresses the issues facing Mormonism. You can listen live at http://www.kuer.org/ This morning at 11 AM.
6/11/07: Are Mormons Christians?
Last month, a televangelist based in Tampa, Florida told his followers that "if you vote for Mitt Romney, you are voting for Satan!" Many Evangelicals in the country simply don't believe that the LDS Church is a Christian denomination. A recent Pew Research Center poll indicated that 30% of the public are less likely to support a Mormon for president. Monday, we're asking the very straight-forward question: Are Mormons Christians? For that matter, who is a Christian, and who gets to decide?
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Each of us is a prisoner if we live in a world without wonder and curiosity, and we must be willing to explore the world of ideas if we want to be free. Marietta McCarty explaining the meaning of Plato’s Allegory of the Cave.
Posted: 11 June 2007 04:39 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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WestBerkeleyFlats
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I don't think Mormonism is Christian in the most basic sense given that the belief system is polytheistic and that the most fundamental belief of Christianity, as well as Judaism, and Islam for that matter, is monotheism. Mormonism departed from the historical and intellectual tradition of Christianity under Joseph Smith, and more so Brigham Young, and fashioned its own alternate version of Western religious history and thought that has little connection to the historical reality.
I think that most Mormons believe that they are Christian, and in a certain sense, are Christian in the sense that they believe that Jesus was the Christ and the Son of God and their Savior. Most Mormons believe, it would seem to me, in a Mormon-Christian synthesis that was fashioned in the early twentieth century by people such as Talmage and Widstoe that tried to reconcile elements of Mormon teaching and scripture with their understanding of the New Testament. I have never met an active, believing Mormon with a good, or perhaps even basic, grasp of the history of Christianity and elements of Christian thought.
Posted: 11 June 2007 05:22 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Nogginus Skepticalus
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That's kind of a toughie
Christianity stemmed from Judaism, Judaism stemmed from pagan egyptian/ sumarian/ mesopotamian beliefs.
Are Christians Jews? no
Are Jews pagan? no
Mormons stemmed from christianity... the jesus figure in Mormonism does not have the same characteristics as the jesus figure in Christianity. Even where in the most basic penultimate expression of Jesus, the salvation part, Mormons differ completely from most of mainstream Christianity. Is it faith or works that should be employed in order to effectuate the atonement?
My opinion is that Mormons are not Christians since Gordon B Hinkley said:
In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.
"No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness [sic] of Times'" (June 20, 1998,
Mormons do not want to be Christians as far as we define mainstream Christianity.
Also, in the pre 1990 endowment I attended, there used to be a mainstream Christian minister in the movie preaching "the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture". Adam was discouraged from being any part of that.
Also, in Joseph Smith's historical account, he writes that God told him that all religions of Smith's day drew near to God with their lips but their hearts were far from him... and that those religions were an abomination and Smith was not to join any of them.
So on account of the differences found in doctrine, and the Mormon desire to be completely separate from mainstream Christianity, I would have to opine that Mormons are not Christians, nor do they want to be. They are a brand name of their own composition apart from Christianity in and unto themselves and they are not recognized by the main group of churches.
~Noggin
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Posted: 11 June 2007 05:28 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Dogzilla Joy
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Of course not. They're Smithians.
They worship Joseph Smith. They pay lip service to Jesus, because Jesus gave Smith an excuse to start up a new religion. But I don't see much christianity in deed or attitude, among mormons. I see lots of smith worship. Mormons never stop and ask themselves what would jesus do? They stop and ask themselves, what would ole Joe do? And then they go and act like cultists, not christians.
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Posted: 11 June 2007 05:42 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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I am listening to this radio show as I type. Two LDS BYU "talking heads" who really really really rub me the wrong way are:
Andrew Skinner
and
'Answer the question they should have asked' Robert Millet.
This is painful listening but I will put my shoulder to the wheel and press forward.
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Posted: 11 June 2007 06:18 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
skeptic
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Returning and reporting and Jahedgpeth hopefully you might give your take having listened to the entire program.
Skeptic attempted to call in ask Robert Millet the questions posed by our Grape Nephi, at what reference point does the Mormon Church claim to have restored the Church. As Grape Nephi has pointed out 1st century churches included the Jewish followers led by James, the Pauline Christians and the Gnostics. I attempted many times to call in but received busy signals from my calls.
Church apologist Robert Millet was a hoot stating even GBH the current Prophet doesn't have clarity on such things as the meaning to some of the church doctrines. So why does the church even need a prophet?
One of the programs guests stated if the Mormon Church is Christian and if we can define Christians as those who profess to believe in Christ why does the Mormon Church attempt to excommunicate church members such as Grant Palmer who can believe in Joseph Smith but has a deep belief in Christ?
Robert Millet would not answer this question.
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Posted: 11 June 2007 06:29 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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skeptic:
Returning and reporting and Jahedgpeth hopefully you might give your take having listened to the entire program.
Skeptic attempted to call in ask Robert Millet the questions posed by our Grape Nephi, at what reference point does the Mormon Church claim to have restored the Church. As Grape Nephi has pointed out 1st century churches included the Jewish followers led by James, the Pauline Christians and the Gnostics. I attempted many times to call in but received busy signals from my calls.
Church apologist Robert Millet was a hoot stating even GBH the current Prophet doesn't have clarity on such things as the meaning to some of the church doctrines. So why does the church even need a prophet?
One of the programs guests stated if the Mormon Church is Christian and if we can define Christians as those who profess to believe in Christ why does the Mormon Church attempt to excommunicate church members such as Grant Palmer who can believe in Joseph Smith but has a deep belief in Christ?
Robert Millet would not answer this question.
Yes Skeptic! I loved the guy on the phone. I think he said he was from the "Mormon research .org" or some such organization. That was a fantastic question he asked about people being disfellowshiped even though they still believe in Jesus. I think I will ask it the next time I bump into some missionaries.
It seems to me, that the Mormons (1 lady caller and Millet) where trying to make the case that since they share the key doctrines of "traditional"/"Nicaean"/(whatever you call it) Christians, that they are in fact Christians too.
Here is the problem with that claim. First of all, words don't carry the same meaning when used by LDS. Words like "salvation", "grace", "forgiveness"etc all carry different meanings. So on the surface, one could loosely make the case that LDS and orthodox Christianity share common ground. But as you dig deaper into what the Mormons REALLY mean when they use these words, you see the difference. I think folks like Millet understand the difference and are simply being dishonest.
I also agree with the "anti" caller when he said (paraphrase) "It's not so much Mitt's religion as it is his politics. We can't get a straight answer out of him on key issues. And this is the same thing we run into with Mormons. No one can answer simple straight forward questions." ---so true.
I enjoyed the radio show. Thanks for the link.
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Posted: 11 June 2007 06:43 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Depends on your definition of Christianity.
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Posted: 11 June 2007 07:02 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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nxtoracle:Depends on your definition of Christianity.
Yup. After reading about a gazillion discussions on this issue, I've settled on "Mormons are heterodox Christians."
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Posted: 11 June 2007 07:08 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Utahlib
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nxtoracle:Depends on your definition of Christianity.
My thought exactly. I'd say most religions today claiming to be Christian, aren't.
Posted: 11 June 2007 07:10 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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dbradhud: I've settled on "Mormons are heterodox Christians."
Outstanding word choice dbradhud. I think you are 100% correct in labeling Mormons as such. Thank you for sharing your wisdom.
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Posted: 11 June 2007 07:14 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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I agree with nxtoracle and dbradhud. It depends on one's definition. It's a label that has different meanings to it's different respective labelers.
It also begs the question... are FLDS Mormons? LDS are offended when the world refers to the Mormon Fundamentalists as Mormons. Same arguments apply. It's only a label and has different meanings to it's different respective labelers.
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Posted: 11 June 2007 07:19 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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The PRofit
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Isn't it ironic that it seems like you can always pick out the christian in the crowd, since they're usually the least tollerant? Perfect example is so-called christian ministers claiming that "A vote for Mitt is a vote for satan".
It's a classic case of demonizing "them" (the damned) in order to unify "us" (the saved). It's pure tribalism and heads us backwards towards barbaric tribalism, instead of forwards towards a more rational CIVILization.
Who cares if Mormons are Christian when the so-called Christians are not even Christian?
If the ministers who claim "A vote for Mitt is a vote for Satan!" represent christianity, then who in the hell aspires to be anything like that?
Hell no I'm not Christian, not as long as bigots claim that title to justify violating Christ's main commandment.
If the only thing that makes you Christian is violating Christ's main commandment, then count me out!
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Posted: 11 June 2007 07:23 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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Crime Dog
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And since we are on the topic of labels - an earlier post referred to Mormons as "polytheistic." While that is true in that they believe there are "Gods many" as they strive to become Gods themselves, I believe a more accurate label is "monolatrous." In other words, they believe in many Gods, but worship only one. Unless of course, you count the three members of the Godhead as separate and distinct deities worthy of worship. If that is the case, I guess polytheism is the more accurate term.
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Posted: 11 June 2007 07:23 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
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Nogginus Skepticalus
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dogzilla:
Of course not. They're Smithians.
They worship Joseph Smith. They pay lip service to Jesus, because Jesus gave Smith an excuse to start up a new religion. But I don't see much christianity in deed or attitude, among mormons. I see lots of smith worship. Mormons never stop and ask themselves what would jesus do? They stop and ask themselves, what would ole Joe do? And then they go and act like cultists, not christians.
I have thought about my knee jerk response above a couple of posts ago. Then I come back to read dogzilla's post.
I still attend sacrament meeting in order to honor what my wife still believes, so I get my weekly dosages doled out to me. However, it seems there are a few classificational types of Mormons. I don't think I could safely say that there does NOT exist a ward where a significant percentage of the membership attend on account of their devotion to Jesus Christ. Would you?
My wife was asked the other day by our neighbor if Mormons were Christians and she explained that they indeed were Christians just look at the name
The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints
I cringed.
The fact remains that those Mormons who put Jesus first in their lives, in worship and adoration, honestly believe that they are Christians. In their world, they are... in their world they just believe that they are The Truest Form of Christianity Currently Available to Humanity.
That's the abrasion I find. It's so arrogant. There is no means more accurate than what is also available to mainstream Christianity to verify the Mormon claim of Pure Christianity!! Saying they have the purest format for Christianity because you can feel it it so is very arrogant, and more than a little short sighted. Yet my wife is not in any way an arrogant person. That is what galls me. I have challenged her on this. I asked her if she thought the rest of religion is in error compared to Mormonism and she balked. Regardless of any quote I showed her from Smith saying how God said all religions at the time were abominations, she just did not want to say that she was the only one with The Truth. I don't get it, but I gave up trying to get it awhile back now.
My wife is very smart. She lives on a different planet than I do regarding this whole thing. She does not ever want to leave that planet... and if I continue to try to help her leave her planet, she'll do drastic things like divorce me, the deceived one. sigh. Kind of makes up a wierd marital elixir at times but hey...
As for worshipping Smith, there might be a small percentage of people who do that in Mormonism, but if you look and listen to a few conference talks, you will see that Smith is considered a gateway, a restorer of lost things pertaining to Jesus. There is a huge amount of appreciation shown to the man for doing what he claims he did.
I don't believe the majority worship Smith. Most if not all practicing Mormons would disagree with you. I think it's a little like telling a Catholic that they worship the Virgin Mary or the patron saints-- they would be offended by that assertion.
~Noggin
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Posted: 11 June 2007 07:29 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
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Koriwhore:Isn't it ironic that it seems like you can always pick out the christian in the crowd, since they're usually the least tollerant? Perfect example is so-called christian ministers claiming that "A vote for Mitt is a vote for satan".
It's a classic case of demonizing "them" (the damned) in order to unify "us" (the saved). It's pure tribalism and heads us backwards towards barbaric tribalism, instead of forwards towards a more rational CIVILization.
Who cares if Mormons are Christian when the so-called Christians are not even Christian?
If the ministers who claim "A vote for Mitt is a vote for Satan!" represent christianity, then who in the hell aspires to be anything like that?
Hell no I'm not Christian, not as long as bigots claim that title to justify violating Christ's main commandment.
Apparently violating Christ's main commandment along with reality is the only thing that makes you Christian, so count me out!
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Posted: 12 June 2007 12:25 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
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Ed
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Tapir Whisperer:
I agree with nxtoracle and dbradhud. It depends on one's definition. It's a label that has different meanings to it's different respective labelers.
It also begs the question... are FLDS Mormons? LDS are offended when the world refers to the Mormon Fundamentalists as Mormons. Same arguments apply. It's only a label and has different meanings to it's different respective labelers.
There is definitely a double-standard in the LDS church about this point. Gordon B. Hinckley stated on Larry King:
"They [Mormon Fundamentalists] have no connection to us. They don't belong to the church. There are actually no Mormon fundamentalists." (GBH Interview with Larry King, Aired September 8, 1998 - 9:00 p.m. ET)
So, apparently GBH can decide who is Mormon and who is not.
Now consider this statement from GBH quoted by the Deseret news:
"In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ. No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness [sic] of Times'" (June 20, 1998, <http://www.desnews.com/cgi-bin/libstory_church?dn98&9806210091>).
So, GBH admits that he believes in a different Jesus than that of Orthodox Christianity, doesn't seem to have a problem telling people whether or not they are Mormon, but apparently nobody else has the right to make the same judgements about the LDS church.
I always found the whole "Jesus Christ is in our name, therefore we must be Christians argument" to be a bit spurious. Compare the practices of the LDS church to those of other Christian denominations. When you attend a mainline Christian church, the worship is focused solely around Christ. In attending Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, and other denominations, I never once heard any talk about the founder of the denomination nor any current church adminstrator.
When you go to an LDS church, on the other hand, you spend about 6 months every four years in Sunday school talking about the teachings of Jesus, yet every week get a lesson on the modern LDS prophets. At fast and Testimony meeting (at least in my experience), members definitely focused more on Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, the temple, and other LDS-unique trinkets than on Christ.
In the end I agree that it is a question of semantics when applying the Christian label, but find it funny how convoluted the LDS position is on the whole matter.
Posted: 12 June 2007 04:45 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 17 ]
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From my particular faith-tradition, one is considered Christian if they've been baptized in water (pouring or the full-on dunk) according to the Trinitarian formula ("I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit/Ghost"). Since LDS baptisms are performed according to the traditional standards, I have to assume that they're Chrisitians.
The doctrinal stuff is an entirely different matter, of course. And other churches disagree with my assessment, which is fine.
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Posted: 12 June 2007 05:24 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 18 ]
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krys
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i caught a little of it this morning and a little when the show repeated in the evening, but not enough to follow the conversation. i've been in bed with the flu/strep, so i kind of faded in and out. i'll hope to catch it online when i'm feeling up to it, it sounded interesting.
i, for one, am glad to hear that Mitt is floundering a bit in the public eye, not for his religious beliefs, but because he's unable to give a straight answer on anything. i do not want to see a mormon running this country.
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You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty. —Mohandas Gandhi
Posted: 12 June 2007 05:45 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 19 ]
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pnut
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Koriwhore:Isn't it ironic that it seems like you can always pick out the christian in the crowd, since they're usually the least tollerant?QUOTE]
::sigh::
Posted: 12 June 2007 06:32 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 20 ]
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puff the pagan
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noggin:
dogzilla:
Of course not. They're Smithians.
As for worshipping Smith, there might be a small percentage of people who do that in Mormonism, but if you look and listen to a few conference talks, you will see that Smith is considered a gateway, a restorer of lost things pertaining to Jesus. There is a huge amount of appreciation shown to the man for doing what he claims he did.
I don't believe the majority worship Smith. Most if not all practicing Mormons would disagree with you. I think it's a little like telling a Catholic that they worship the Virgin Mary or the patron saints-- they would be offended by that assertion.
~Noggin
mormons do not worship JS directly, however they believe that the writings of JS are directly from Jesus christ , as these writings come through js mind and are connected to his personal viewpoint of life and the world he lived in , then it is fair to say that mormons are worshipping an aspect of JS mind , this would be very different to worshipping god through the real historical personage of jesus christ , question is , who really knows the real person in this day and age .
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Posted: 12 June 2007 07:02 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 21 ]
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Tal Bachman
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Not even Christians are Christians
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Posted: 12 June 2007 12:50 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 22 ]
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gingerbreadapron
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Tal Bachman:Not even Christians are Christians
How exactly do you mean this? Most Christians don't act like Christians or live true to what a Christian is "suppose" to be?
I do feel that I have known people who have lived true to the tenets of Christianity.
Posted: 12 June 2007 03:30 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 23 ]
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My take on the Mormon/Christian debate is that while Mormons believe in Jesus, he isn't really as central to their belief system as they think he is. I was a lifelong Mormon who never believed in anything else, as were my ancestors going back some eight generations. When I quit Mormonism, I didn't revert to a default belief in Jesus, though I briefly considered it. Consider the basic Mormon testimony:
1. I know the Book of Mormon is true.
2. I know Joseph Smith was a prophet.
3. I know the Church is true.
That foundation of faith leads to a belief in Jesus, but it is not central to what Mormons believe. So, Mormons are Christian in that they do believe in Jesus, but he is not central to their belief system.
I tend to dismiss the argument that Mormons aren't Christian because they don't follow a tradition of Christian belief or the Council of Nicea or whatever. Mormons have the right to believe in Jesus any way they want and still consider themselves Christian. Denying them that is as arrogant as when Mormons say that the rest of "Christendom" isn't truly Christian since they are in apostasy.
That being said, the whole "Are Mormons Christian?" debate is a little like considering how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. They're all kind of the same from my atheist perspective.
Posted: 12 June 2007 03:36 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 24 ]
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Sam:My take on the Mormon/Christian debate is that while Mormons believe in Jesus, he isn't really as central to their belief system as they think he is. I was a lifelong Mormon who never believed in anything else, as were my ancestors going back some eight generations. When I quit Mormonism, I didn't revert to a default belief in Jesus, though I briefly considered it. Consider the basic Mormon testimony:
1. I know the Book of Mormon is true.
2. I know Joseph Smith was a prophet.
3. I know the Church is true.
That foundation of faith leads to a belief in Jesus, but it is not central to what Mormons believe. So, Mormons are Christian in that they do believe in Jesus, but he is not central to their belief system.
I tend to dismiss the argument that Mormons aren't Christian because they don't follow a tradition of Christian belief or the Council of Nicea or whatever. Mormons have the right to believe in Jesus any way they want and still consider themselves Christian. Denying them that is as arrogant as when Mormons say that the rest of "Christendom" isn't truly Christian since they are in apostasy.
That being said, the whole "Are Mormons Christian?" debate is a little like considering how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. They're all kind of the same from my atheist perspective.
Great point Sam. I never thought of the fact that the average Mormon doesn't include "Jesus" in their testimony. That is true. I can see what you mean by "they are all kind of the same from <your> atheist perspective."
I can appreciate your indifference towards this issue. However, I think the problem that orthodox Christianity has with Mormons using the label "Christian" is that it implies that they believe the same things. They most certainly do not. In fact, I think the case can be made that Mormons worship a completely different version of Jesus. I see no problem with Mormons using the title of "Christian". But, I think it needs to be a modified version to match their modified belief system for clarity sake. IMHO.
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Posted: 12 June 2007 04:17 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 25 ]
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I tend to dismiss the argument that Mormons aren't Christian because they don't follow a tradition of Christian belief or the Council of Nicea or whatever. Mormons have the right to believe in Jesus any way they want and still consider themselves Christian. Denying them that is as arrogant as when Mormons say that the rest of "Christendom" isn't truly Christian since they are in apostasy.
That being said, the whole "Are Mormons Christian?" debate is a little like considering how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. They're all kind of the same from my atheist perspective.
Gee, you look familiar, Sam. You look like someone I know who is a Palestrinia-addict.
I think you're correct in your analysis of the situation. As a Christian (albeit a rather liberal one), I realize that there are numerous sects out there that don't follow the Nicean Creed or the really ancient parts of traditional Christian theology, and it's very true that each sect tends to view Jesus Christ in different ways. For example, there are many denominations out there who view Jesus Christ as essentially the "judge, jury, and executioner" of the cosmos, and others view him in a far more benign light. And there are groups out there that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, yet it isn't clear at all if they also believe the traditional tenet that Jesus Christ is also God the Son ("consubstantial", if you will). Yet so many of these groups are viewed by Americans without question as being Christian.
When it comes down to Mormonism, they are influenced heavily by 19th century New England protestantism, and espouse beliefs and practices that are common to all forms of Christianity; therefore, they may be "heretical" Christians (I hate that term, by the way), but they are still part of the Judeo-Christian family tree.
I tend to think that Mormons are denied the term "Christian" mostly because they use the Book of Mormon as the equal to the accepted Bible. If it weren't for that, they'd probably be viewed in the same way as the Seventh-Day Adventists -- strange, questionable, yet still Christian.
P.S. -- Please don't think that I'm justifying any of the mind-control and religiously abusive practices of Mormonism. I'm not. I'm opposed to the very same things that I find in extreme forms of accepted fundamentalist Christianity.
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Posted: 12 June 2007 04:18 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 26 ]
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Dogzilla Joy
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jahedgpeth:
Great point Sam. I never thought of the fact that the average Mormon doesn't include "Jesus" in their testimony. That is true. I can see what you mean by "they are all kind of the same from <your> atheist perspective."
I can appreciate your indifference towards this issue. However, I think the problem that orthodox Christianity has with Mormons using the label "Christian" is that it implies that they believe the same things. They most certainly do not. In fact, I think the case can be made that Mormons worship a completely different version of Jesus. I see no problem with Mormons using the title of "Christian". But, I think it needs to be a modified version to match their modified belief system for clarity sake. IMHO.
That was exactly my point in my post above... How often have you attended a really nice Easter service in the mormon church where the resurrection of Christ was discussed at length? How 'bout on Christmas? I've been to church on Christmas when Christ was barely mentioned. I've been to church on Easter when Christ wasn't mentioned at all.
:: crickets chirping ::
How many testimonies do you hear on F&T Sunday that extoll the virtues of Jesus' teachings?
:: crickets chirping ::
How many pictures of Jesus are there, displayed in mormon homes and ward buildings? Compared to pictures of the JS or some other prophet?
:: crickets chirping ::
How often is the concept of grace and the atonement taught in SS, YM/YW, Seminary?
:: crickets chirping ::
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Posted: 12 June 2007 04:25 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 27 ]
jahedgpeth
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dogzilla:
jahedgpeth:
Great point Sam. I never thought of the fact that the average Mormon doesn't include "Jesus" in their testimony. That is true. I can see what you mean by "they are all kind of the same from <your> atheist perspective."
I can appreciate your indifference towards this issue. However, I think the problem that orthodox Christianity has with Mormons using the label "Christian" is that it implies that they believe the same things. They most certainly do not. In fact, I think the case can be made that Mormons worship a completely different version of Jesus. I see no problem with Mormons using the title of "Christian". But, I think it needs to be a modified version to match their modified belief system for clarity sake. IMHO.
That was exactly my point in my post above... How often have you attended a really nice Easter service in the mormon church where the resurrection of Christ was discussed at length? How 'bout on Christmas? I've been to church on Christmas when Christ was barely mentioned. I've been to church on Easter when Christ wasn't mentioned at all.
:: crickets chirping ::
How many testimonies do you hear on F&T Sunday that extoll the virtues of Jesus' teachings?
:: crickets chirping ::
How many pictures of Jesus are there, displayed in mormon homes and ward buildings? Compared to pictures of the JS or some other prophet?
:: crickets chirping ::
How often is the concept of grace and the atonement taught in SS, YM/YW, Seminary?
:: crickets chirping ::
Hey Dogzilla,
I wonder if these things will change over the next 20 years. In the last 10-15 years Mormonsim has slowly inched it's way towards main stream Christianity. It is doing an extreme make-over. I bet all of your above list will be transformed and they will deny that it was ever any other way. IMO
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Posted: 12 June 2007 04:35 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 28 ]
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Shakjula
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jahedgpeth:
Hey Dogzilla,
I wonder if these things will change over the next 20 years. In the last 10-15 years Mormonsim has slowly inched it's way towards main stream Christianity. It is doing an extreme make-over. I bet all of your above list will be transformed and they will deny that it was ever any other way. IMO
I've noticed the same trends just by observing the tiny yet interesting changes that have been made on the official LDS websites. If you read the Frequently Asked Questions on Mormons.org, the terminology has become increasingly similar to standard Evangelical Protestant language, and it's not easy finding anything on the concept of "eternal progression" or the "plurality of gods". As an outsider, I get the impression that the LDS are attempting to show that they're not that different.
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Posted: 12 June 2007 04:51 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 29 ]
jahedgpeth
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Shakjula:
jahedgpeth:
Hey Dogzilla,
I wonder if these things will change over the next 20 years. In the last 10-15 years Mormonsim has slowly inched it's way towards main stream Christianity. It is doing an extreme make-over. I bet all of your above list will be transformed and they will deny that it was ever any other way. IMO
I've noticed the same trends just by observing the tiny yet interesting changes that have been made on the official LDS websites. If you read the Frequently Asked Questions on Mormons.org, the terminology has become increasingly similar to standard Evangelical Protestant language, and it's not easy finding anything on the concept of "eternal progression" or the "plurality of gods". As an outsider, I get the impression that the LDS are attempting to show that they're not that different.
Yeah shakjula, I know what you mean.
Whenever I get into an online discussion with a devout Mormon, they will inevitably point me to lds.org for an answer. It leaves me to wonder if they are being dishonest or just plain dumb about the real teachings of Mormonism. I think it is a little of both. IMO
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Posted: 12 June 2007 04:55 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 30 ]
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Shak! Welcome to the PostMormon.org board! I'm a relative newcomer myself.
I was thinking of you when I mentioned the Council of Nicea. I am so busted right now. I can't deny that I love Christian liturgical music, so my claim that I'm indifferent because they're all the same sounds a little hollow right now. I think the Baptists in my neck of the woods are even more dogmatic and irrational than Mormons, if that's possible, and yet there are some very liberal Christians that still fall under the umbrella of "Christianity" where Mormons are considered not to. Maybe the Book of Mormon is the difference, as you said. And yet, even the Book of Mormon testifies of Christ. The boundaries seem very vague to me. I think Mormons are less Christian than they think, but more Christian than Christians think.
Dogzilla, I know what you're saying about Mormon Easter services. It seems like Easter is the perfect time to talk about the martyrdom of Joseph Smith.
Posted: 12 June 2007 04:57 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 31 ]
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Shakjula
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jahedgpeth:
Shakjula:
jahedgpeth:
Hey Dogzilla,
I wonder if these things will change over the next 20 years. In the last 10-15 years Mormonsim has slowly inched it's way towards main stream Christianity. It is doing an extreme make-over. I bet all of your above list will be transformed and they will deny that it was ever any other way. IMO
I've noticed the same trends just by observing the tiny yet interesting changes that have been made on the official LDS websites. If you read the Frequently Asked Questions on Mormons.org, the terminology has become increasingly similar to standard Evangelical Protestant language, and it's not easy finding anything on the concept of "eternal progression" or the "plurality of gods". As an outsider, I get the impression that the LDS are attempting to show that they're not that different.
Yeah shakjula, I know what you mean.
Whenever I get into an online discussion with a devout Mormon, they will inevitably point me to lds.org for an answer. It leaves me to wonder if they are being dishonest or just plain dumb about the real teachings of Mormonism. I think it is a little of both. IMO
I've also noticed that Mormon theology and other aspects tend to be very fluid -- in decades past they'll call themselves Mormons, and now they'll emphasize their Christian heritage. So I'm in agreement with you about the dishonesty/ignorance factor, although since Mormonism doesn't really have anything roughly equivalent to a standardized catechism or theological manual, it's really difficult for them to know what their faith officially teaches.
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Posted: 12 June 2007 05:11 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 32 ]
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Shakjula
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Sam:Shak! Welcome to the PostMormon.org board! I'm a relative newcomer myself.
I was thinking of you when I mentioned the Council of Nicea. I am so busted right now. I can't deny that I love Christian liturgical music, so my claim that I'm indifferent because they're all the same sounds a little hollow right now. I think the Baptists in my neck of the woods are even more dogmatic and irrational than Mormons, if that's possible, and yet there are some very liberal Christians that still fall under the umbrella of "Christianity" where Mormons are considered not to. Maybe the Book of Mormon is the difference, as you said. And yet, even the Book of Mormon testifies of Christ. The boundaries seem very vague to me. I think Mormons are less Christian than they think, but more Christian than Christians think.
Dogzilla, I know what you're saying about Mormon Easter services. It seems like Easter is the perfect time to talk about the martyrdom of Joseph Smith.
Here's the crux of the matter:
"The boundaries seem very vague to me. I think Mormons are less Christian than they think, but more Christian than Christians think."
I've been involved in Christian theology for as long as I can remember (coming from a very devout family), and one of the things I've learned is that it is really difficult to pin down the exact fundamentals of what it is to be a Christian. Is it the Creed of Nicea? Is it the "Five Fundamentals"?
Being a traditionalist means that I accept the Creed of Nicea as the minimum standard, but there are evangelicals out there who completely disagree with that. In other words, I might not believe some group or individual is a Christian, but does that mean they're not, or that they are forbidden to use the term? Of course not. I didn't wake up this morning and notice that I was lying in my bed in the Vatican Palace.
I'll share with you an incident that happened in my parish that I thought was awesome, and placed the "are they really Christians" argument to rest for me. One evening, during the theology class I teach at my parish, one of the participants brought two mishies to the class at church, and it was great. The priest of the parish, who was by no means a radical modernist or anything like that, invited them both to attend Holy Eucharist on Sunday morning, and one of them actually did. During the liturgy the priest stood up and specifically invited them to receive holy communion, telling the individual and his grandmother, "You have been baptized into Christ, and therefore you are a Christian just like us. You are welcome to the Lord's table. And you don't have to drink the wine from the chalice, because I know that would violate one of your principles."
I don't believe the mishie and his grandmother went forward, but I felt pretty damned good that we didn't exclude them as some sort of abomination. That incident stuck with me.
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Posted: 12 June 2007 07:36 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 33 ]
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Tal Bachman
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Stacey, what I mean most fundamentally by that statement, is that Christianity does not exist as a coherent concept, and so strictly speaking, no one can really be a "Christian". For example, being a Christian can just as justifiably be said to entail "turning the other cheek", as of beating a bunch of people up (Jesus with his "scourge of cords" at the temple). So...Gandhi or an Islamic holy warrior - both qualify, so in reality, neither "qualify", because it can't be said that there is any actual "thing" to qualify for.
There is not even any evidence in the gospels that Christ ever sought to found a brand new religion based on worship of himself.
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Posted: 12 June 2007 08:14 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 34 ]
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The PRofit
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pnut:
Koriwhore:Isn't it ironic that it seems like you can always pick out the christian in the crowd, since they're usually the least tollerant?QUOTE]
::sigh::
::sigh::
I KNOW, LUMPING "CHRISTIANS" TOGETHER WITH&NBSP;EXTREAMISTS, LIKE THE MINISTER WHO CLAIMS "A VOTE FOR MITT IS A VOTE FOR THE DEVIL" IS PROBABLY A LITTLE EXTREAM, BUT LET'S FACE IT, IT'S REALLY NOT THAT EXTREAM FOR THE INTEOLLERANT GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO'VE BEEN CALLING THE SHOTS OVER THE PAST 7 YEARS&NBSP;IN THE US.&NBSP;
&L
::sigh::
::sigh::
I know, lumping "Christians" together with extreamists, like the minister who claims "A vote for Mitt is a vote for the devil" is probably a little extream, but let's face it, it's really not that extream for the inteollerant group of people who've been calling the shots over the past 7 years in the US.
If they're the ones in control of determining who gets elected to the US Presidency, again, it ain't gonna be Mitt, Hillary or Barak.
Since there's no way in hell a Mormon, woman or a black man is going to be President of the US as long as the same people determining the outcome of elections still believe continuing the quagmire in Iraq is our best option.
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Posted: 12 June 2007 09:54 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 35 ]
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puff the pagan
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Koriwhore:
pnut:
Koriwhore:Isn't it ironic that it seems like you can always pick out the christian in the crowd, since they're usually the least tollerant?QUOTE]
::sigh::
::sigh::
I KNOW, LUMPING "CHRISTIANS" TOGETHER WITH&NBSP;EXTREAMISTS, LIKE THE MINISTER WHO CLAIMS "A VOTE FOR MITT IS A VOTE FOR THE DEVIL" IS PROBABLY A LITTLE EXTREAM, BUT LET'S FACE IT, IT'S REALLY NOT THAT EXTREAM FOR THE INTEOLLERANT GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO'VE BEEN CALLING THE SHOTS OVER THE PAST 7 YEARS&NBSP;IN THE US.&NBSP;
&L
&NBSP;
::SIGH::
&NBSP;
::SIGH::
I KNOW, LUMPING "CHRISTIANS" TOGETHER WITH&NBSP;EXTREAMISTS, LIKE THE MINISTER WHO CLAIMS "A VOTE FOR MITT IS A VOTE FOR THE DEVIL" IS PROBABLY A LITTLE EXTREAM, BUT LET'S FACE IT, IT'S REALLY NOT THAT EXTREAM FOR THE INTEOLLERANT GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO'VE BEEN CALLING THE SHOTS OVER THE PAST 7 YEARS&NBSP;IN THE US.&NBSP;
::sigh::
::sigh::
I KNOW, LUMPING "CHRISTIANS" TOGETHER WITH&NBSP;EXTREAMISTS, LIKE THE MINISTER WHO CLAIMS "A VOTE FOR MITT IS A VOTE FOR THE DEVIL" IS PROBABLY A LITTLE EXTREAM, BUT LET'S FACE IT, IT'S REALLY NOT THAT EXTREAM FOR THE INTEOLLERANT GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO'VE BEEN CALLING THE SHOTS OVER THE PAST 7 YEARS&NBSP;IN THE US.&NBSP;
&L
::sigh::
::sigh::
I know, lumping "Christians" together with extreamists, like the minister who claims "A vote for Mitt is a vote for the devil" is probably a little extream, but let's face it, it's really not that extream for the inteollerant group of people who've been calling the shots over the past 7 years in the US.
If they're the ones in control of determining who gets elected to the US Presidency, again, it ain't gonna be Mitt, Hillary or Barak.
Since there's no way in hell a Mormon, woman or a black man is going to be President of the US as long as the same people determining the outcome of elections still believe continuing the quagmire in Iraq is our best option.
I,m glad you can see the total racilism with which american society conducts itself , it might be equally said a hispanic will not be president , niether a person of chinese descent , niether a homosexual , a celibate bachelor will not be president , however , a crook like nixon had no problem getting in , also lets not forget that america is 80% christian .that type of idealism seems to be part of christian values , i wonder what will happen if espanics or black americans become the majority , would there be some sort of revolution ?
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Posted: 12 June 2007 10:26 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 36 ]
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pnut
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koriwhore,
It's understandable, this stereotype. I sighed because of the stereotype and not because of your using it.
I'm democrat, liberal, would gladly vote for a woman, a person of color and hold out great HOPE that such a candidate would win and bring change to the political atmosphere in which we are now engaged. I am against the war, did not vote for George Bush, am accepting of people regardless of color, sexual orientation, religion, gender. I'm also a christian. I do not claim to belong to "the one true church on the face of this earth." There are more than just judgemental chistian sects out there, making attempts to impose their morality and religion on the world. To name a few, United Methodists, Congregationalists (UCC), Federated churches of many kinds just to name a few. And, they are taking a bold stance in the world and are practicing the mission of Christ in a vastly different way in which fundamentalist sects do. You might not notice the doves as much as the hawks. So, when you look around the room and "notice the christian" as the one who is least accepting, you might be missing the one who is taking a stand for some less predictable issues.... ones which many Christians believe one must support in order to live out Christ's mission from their understanding and perspective of what he taught. Justice, mercy, acceptance, love, non-judgement. You might find the article below interesting and perhaps refeshing. Please accept my ::sigh:: as one of personal reflection and not judgement of your chosing to view christians as such. The stereotypes exist because the behaviors on display as the example of what it means to be christian. Please accept my thoughts in the same spirit as given: I "GET IT".... what you're saying. Hopefully the less recognizable types will let their hearts be known by better behavior and such stereotypes might become less dominant in the world. Peace........
Kobia: World's Christians must repent for oppressing other faiths
http://www.ucc.org/news/kobia-worlds-christians.html
Posted: 12 June 2007 11:18 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 37 ]
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I've read all the posts and enjoy the perspectives of all. I can't make a judgement about whether Mormons are Christian. When I was a Mormon, I believed I was a Christian, because regardless of directives from SLC, I tried to be Christlike and treat people from all backgounds with love and respect. I also chose not to make judgements about people and I freely gave to help others. I did not try to steer anyone to my way of thinking and I tried to (as well as I could) understand the perspective of others.
It matters not to me whether the Mormons choose to call themselves Christians or Purple Elephants.
The decency of our actions towards others is the key to who we are, and what label we carry.
Posted: 13 June 2007 01:35 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 38 ]
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The PRofit
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Rickery:
The decency of our actions towards others is the key to who we are, and what label we carry.
That's exactly the way I feel. When I was Mormon I thought it was absurd that "Christians" would tell me I wasn't "christian" when they were being un-christian by judging me without even knowing anything about me. What makes you Christian is your actions towards others, not your claims.
One of the most vivid examples of this for me were the evangelical protesters outside of General Conference.
They cross the line between free speech and hate speech, but what is absurd is that they are able to get away with it in the name of "freedom of speech" and "freedom of religion". What about MY freedom FROM religion?
They're violating my freedom of and FROM religion.
It was everything I could do to restrain myself from tearing the pornographic images out of their hands and punching them in the megaphone they were using to shout hate speech.
But then I thought, hey, I'd be worse than them if I did that. I just said to my kids, "Hey, what a country huh kids? Even people as offensive as them get to enjoy their freedom of speech."
I draw the line between freedom of speech and hate speech and they cross that line, just like this a##hole minister from Tampa Bay who demonizes Mormons.
Anybody that demonizes his fellow wo/man is exploiting the barbaric, tribal nature of his followers in the interest of self promotion and self agrandizement and is anything but Christlike. He's more like Hitler than Christ.
I know that Neo-conservative, evangelicals spewing hate speech like the "minister" in Tampa Bay don't represent all christians, but they're the ones getting the press and setting the tone and polarizing this nation and world instead of unifying it.
Unfortunately being christlike is not very newsworthy these days.
I think it's ironic that people as conservative as Mitt Romney are not conservative enough for Neo-conservative Evangelical Christians. To them Mormons are not only not Christian, they're satanic.
NeoConservative Evangelical "Christians" make the best case against Christianity.
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Posted: 13 June 2007 04:57 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 39 ]
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gingerbreadapron
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WestBerkeleyFlats:I don't think Mormonism is Christian in the most basic sense given that the belief system is polytheistic
TBMs don't understand this. They seem so puzzled at why others do not see them as mainstream Christian. But really most of them have *no* idea how odd the concept is to most Christians that everyone can be Gods. I don't even think I completely realized how odd it was until I left. It is a fundamental difference between the Mormon church and other religions, an idea that is very offensive to others outside the faith.
‹‹ When did you FALL AWAY? Church NOT opposed to alcohol anymore! ››
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