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Sexuality
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offline3d808
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May 4 14 7:24 PM
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Hello everyone, I havenʻt been on here in awhile. Although I am not questioning my own sexuality I came across this amazing video today I wanted to share. I also wanted to say thanks to Sam,Rhonda,Tim,Cj,Valerie,Punkie and the many others on here that have helped me so much in my journey of recovery. Love you all, Derek
status offlinewoohoo
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That was very moving. Thank you for sharing.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Derek ... that was a very VERY cleverly written movie! It's something kids should be shown!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinePauley4
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That was a good clip. Thank you for posting it.
I was in a situation some what similar back in the late 90s. Although, one's sexual preference wasn't as salient as it is in this film; one's sexuality was generally "known." It was a telemarketing call center, and the owner of the company was gay, and most of the floor supervisors were gay. Frankly, gay people had more status. It was a good experience for me, as being one of JWs, we were taught that homosexuality is wrong. Which also meant that I believed what they told me. I was "unlearning" what they taught me.
It appears that today the anti-homosexuality sentiment is becoming more institutionalized, rather than people openly showing hostility to someone because they are gay. I think this has to do with our government being too influence by conservative religion; and that lack of dialogue in our society with regard to sex and sexuality, particularly homosexuality. People do not like to discuss things on a deeper level. This is also true with race and racism. We don't discuss racism; in fact if you want to discuss racism or homosexuality, I mean "really" discuss it, you might be labeled a racist or homophobic--which could then turn into you being attacked.
On the bright side, we do, at least presently, live in an open society with regard to knowledge, so that one can still participate in their own learning and development with regard to these areas.
status offlineLocutus
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Thanks Derek,
That got pretty uncomfortable for me, given my background and experiences.
For me, it's all about what expectations we impose on the kids. If there is no acceptance of who they are or what they are feeling, then tragedy can follow. So many parents have decided what their kid will be, before they have even met them. That is the big mistake. That big mistake often comes from religious authority, and is accepted without thought by many people. The truth is that people are born as 'who they are'. Many are not willing to be conformed by authority, to become what the parents want them to be.
For instance: I was born a 3rd generation JW from an exclusive JW family (strong in the truth.. ) When the faith didn't 'take', their behaviour was much the same as shown in your video. To be the' problem child', argued about and discussed as if not in the room.. while they try to bend you into the mould that they have decided you will fit. There is nothing more awful for an upset child than to have parents discuss about them within their hearing range.
Yes, I get it.
The rejection and hatred imposed by some people of faith, sanctioned by their religion, upon their own children.. it just boggles my mind.
However, I think that the fact that we have risen far enough over these things to understand and identify them says quite a lot about us as a community, doesn't it?
Cheers.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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It's been some time since reading and posting.
Personally, I don't care what sexual favor you prefer and hope not being judgmental. If, should anyone want telling me my sexual belief its to be denied because it differs from someone else - there might be a problem because I want accepting that we all just wanting getting along as long as no one wants to shot my sorry ass for having a disagreement.
Trying to catch up on things...it's been interesting. Love, Lin and John
Going to spend time 'surfing' because today is still cold and nasty for working outside and I'm not interested in working with cleaning insidesmiley: pimpsmiley: eyes
Whether or not any of us are acknowledged...know that everyone is loved for having the courage in sharing...although we may not always share on every forum.
We are all important ...something some of us never learned with growing up in that cult; that our life mattered when they tell us how we don't matter - according to their religious belief.
I also understand not all members are 'born-in' and that doesn't matter because they find us for hopefully find recovery from the hatred because of their association with that hate of JW.
Thanks Ronnie and others that help keep this site alive.
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World War Z: JW Edition
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offlinefiftyfiveto1
World War Z: JW Edition
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Ok, first of all, sorry if this is posted in the wrong section. Wasn't really sure where it should go. I've started reading "Crisis of Conscience" and had a pretty good laugh today. I worked this morning and one of our regulars is a JW. Anytime I see him, I usually have the feelings of guilt, etc come back to me. Not because of anything he says or does in particular, just because I know he's a JW and my past with them comes back to my mind.
ANYWAY, he came by today but instead of having the feelings of guilt and pain, I had this really creepy feeling come over me. All I could think about was how "zombie-like" this man seemed to me. LOL, omg I can't even tell you how amusing it was. Hopefully this means I am starting to recover from the guilt factor, but how amazing would it be if everytime I see a JW from now on, I think of them hosting a zombie apocalypse. HAHAHA
status offlineLocutus
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I get that. When you read that book you get into an alternate reality that seems so real that you could touch it. It becomes reality, because the word pictures play off your assumptions and then become real inside your head. Quite like some other alternate reality that we all know so very well.
Cheers.
Last Edited By: Locutus Feb 3 14 8:54 PM. Edited 1 times.
status offlinewalkaway
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I faded over 30 years ago and up until just recently believed the witnesses were closer to the truth than any other organization. I was only in for about 10 years but this religion grabs a hold so tight that guilt, and fear of armageden followed me all those years until i began research the truth about the truth.
The more the real truth is exposed the faster guilt and fear disappears. Now I'm angry amd frustrated that the dear brothers and sisters are so blinded by 8 basically infallible men.
status offlinefiftyfiveto1
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I certainly felt bad for the brother that came through the drive thru. I know he's just as blind as we were and he seems like such a friendly brother, that's the thing that really makes me feel bad. I saw one of the sisters from the KH this morning (an elders wife). We clearly saw each other but I didn't care enough to say hi. 1. I just don't give a damn and 2. She was always such a bitch. Elders wives usually were. They for the most part felt like they were really something just because of their husbands position in the congregation.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Walk Away - It's all about the research! Or, so is my opinion.
55- Your posting gave me a chuckle knowing how my one sister is because she's an Elder's wife - and yes they can be arrogant too.
BIL has always been arrogant but I'm not allowed to discuss such because I'm DF. I cannot discuss the child abuse or pedophile or really anything because I'm the cursed one for not kissing ass, begging their forgiveness. And yet when our mother died, well, I was invited to the service. Excuse me! I'm not stepping into the den of lions...fuck you! Although I didn't say that to her....I simply declined spending the money for helping bury the dead while they would pretend being kind to me when taking the back seat.
Ya' know, after all these years I'm still waiting for someone [JW] to acknowledge that I had sent a letter-giving them thanks for having helped. It just doesn't happen with that cult...and I'm ok with that today- but don't expect me to sign up again.
status offlineSwingLifeAway
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he seems like such a friendly brother, that's the thing that really makes me feel bad.
A lot of JW's are nice people who are being manipulated by a corporation (the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society) into doing not-very-nice things. There's only so much you can do about it and at some point it speaks to their character when they are complicit. Perhaps this is something to think about.
It's a subtle but important distinction.
-Dave
“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy.' They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
- John Lennon
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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This is an issue with me and fence-rider. She wants me believing how loving and kind they are because they help her..OK. That's good.
I'm also tired of of hearing how, because I'm not a believer, being DF, I'm still damned and they would pray for me coming back so I might not die at Armaggdensmiley: ohwell and or/ have a chance of the resurrection.smiley: eyes
Actually, sometimes I can find humor with this bullshit...
As my mantra goes...among others, "I"m not smart but I'm not ignorant."
With that I've got to finish my salad and get ready for the day - hoping some idiot doesn't want to cause problems because I might have to voice my opinion with someone that doesn't stop at Stop Signs...
They had best have insurance and show their ID.
No matter, we need remember having a good day.
status offlinenevermind
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SwingLifeAway wrote:
he seems like such a friendly brother, that's the thing that really makes me feel bad.
A lot of JW's are nice people who are being manipulated by a corporation (the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society) into doing not-very-nice things. There's only so much you can do about it and at some point it speaks to their character when they are complicit. Perhaps this is something to think about.
It's a subtle but important distinction.
This is important to remember. The religion does not change their character, but as many studies have shown humans will continue on with harmful behaviour if somebody else says "Don't worry, I'm the responsible person here- all the blame falls on me"
This hole in our reasoning has caused soldiers to commit atrocities "just following orders"...
all the way down to "I feel bad about shunning my family"
Elder" Don't worry, its Gods will and not your fault. You're actually helping them to come back by shunning"
So I'm not to blame for this? and the destructive behaviour comes forth from a normally nice person.
There is also really nothing you can do about it.
status offlinefiftyfiveto1
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Well I just meant I felt bad that he's going through it. I pretty much don't have any trace of guilt left after reading "Crisis of Conscience" as far as the KH and the whole organization goes. LOL. There were and are a lot of shitty people there, but I do wish that the truly friendly ones could wake up from it.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Sarah ... I've quite forgotten what guilt actually feels like! Ahh the joy of being a real person and not a religious zombie!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineApostateProud
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1. That book is mind blowing and amazing. It really helped breAk some of my brainwashing ties. 2. I absolutely know what you mean about the zombie JW appearance. I can spot a Witness by their appearance and that brainwashed zombie look. On the inside I'm screaming to them "RUN!! It's a lie!" Instead I just smile and am happy I'm free.
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So over all what is wtbts purpose?
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offlinemytruth
So over all what is wtbts purpose?
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Jul 11 14 9:46 PM
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Who is even really in control? Are they making money? Of what benefit does the society have?
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So over all what is wtbts purpose? #1 [-]
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Does anyone have any ideas? Is it a control thing!? Is there someone secretly sitting at the top collecting checks and living in a mansion? Is it part of the free masons? Haha I wanna know! Does anyone know?
status offlinemytruth
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How come no ones answering this one? Haha does no one know ?
status offlineGurgi
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It's a business.
A money making business. Allowed to exist and operate in this society even though it is proved to be damaging to individuals and families even to the point of death.
'Do a barrel roll!' - Peppy Hare, Lylat Wars - N64
'Andross wont have his way with me!' - Fox McCloud, Lylat Wars - N64
status offlinePauley4
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"Who is even really in control?"
The governing body; also know as the faithful and discreet slave. They are the (according to them) legitimate and only spokesperson for God here on earth. As of March 2014, there are seven members:
D. H. Splane,
A. Morris III,
D. M. Sanderson,
G. W. Jackson,
M. S. Lett. S. F.
Herd, G. L
Gerrit Lösch.
All members of the Governing Body are anointed Christians (which means they're better than everyone else).
"Are they making money?"
According to Wikipedia:
In 2001 Newsday listed the Watch Tower Society as one of New York's forty richest corporations, with revenues exceeding $950 million.
"Of what benefit does the society have?"
I'm not sure I understand this question. What benefit I get from the WBTS is at JW.org; it's another reference to do any research that I might be interested in.
status offlinesg75
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Its pretty obvious the GB loves having power and control over the drones. Look at the endless rules about every aspect of life: what you can read, watch on TV; who you marry; what you do with your spare time; how much education you can get; what kind of job you can work at; what you can wear. Anyone who doesn't conform is forced to leave and the remaining drones told not have anything to do with them. Questions and doubts are a threat to the collective's control. The money doesn't hurt either, I'm sure. As to where the money actually goes, I don't know. I have suspicions. I wish the government here in the US would audit them or something and find out what's really going on.
status offlinePauley4
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Well said, sg75.
status offlinemytruth
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Well power and money I get to an extent but it just seems like alot of work for what benefit? I wish I knew. So you can live in a building with. Bunch of other people that drive you around? So you can get your laundry done for free? So you can wake up out a suit on and get to business 8-12 hours a day? Why?! Who would enjoy that? It's just hard for me to understand
status offlinesolitaire
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Its a publishing corporation.....its not only their own publications that they print!! And the best part is that they hide under the cloak of being a charity........so they get all the perks related to that status!!
They also have the very difficult task of looking after mansions in readiness for the resurrection of the prophets..............why couldn't I have landed that job smiley: wink
So you can wake up out a suit on and get to business 8-12 hours a day? Why?! Who would enjoy that? It's just hard for me to understand
Of course the people you are talking about are the brainwashed MyTruth......its the ones who pull the strings that wield the real power..............all the poor delusional ones that attend bethel, pioneer, go where the need is greater etc., and work their socks off for nothing, are just like the rank and file jw's who chase their backsides off attending all the meetings, going out in field service etc.,..........don't look at the puppets, look at the few puppet-masters............
The rank and file do it for the carrot of their 'assured' futures.....the ones in control do it for their benefits here and now....
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlinemytruth
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I was talking about the masters the governing body, or do you think there's someone secretly even behind them ?
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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I don't believe it's a secret society nor do I believe there's a 'higher power' or secretive little clique of people pulling the strings behind the governing body. The WBTS is merely a publishing company that has a massive hold over all of its followers, even the inactive ones. The inactive ones are constantly bombarded with emotional blackmail from their family members and jdub counterparts. Nice one minute. Nasty the next. Hot one minute. Cold the next. Emotional blackmail isn't something that comes naturally to people however it is something that can be taught. It's also something used quite regularly as a form of control. We've all come across parents who will say 'after ALL I've done for you ....... now you just want to throw it all away and throw Jehovah aside .....'. Blech.
The purpose of the WBTS is to continue controlling the lives of others ... and making money. Sure they don't sell their publications anymore. Sure they don't pay full wages for those in any of the Bethel buildings. But they also don't pay taxes like other publishing companies ... so there's money floating about somewhere!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinedivertido
Any more recent financial information? Do they have to file public records? #11 [-]
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In 2001 Newsday listed the Watch Tower Society as one of New York's forty richest corporations, with revenues exceeding $950 million.
"Of what benefit does the society have?"
I'm not sure I understand this question. What benefit I get from the WBTS is at JW.org; it's another reference to do any research that I might be interested in.
status offlinehalf banana
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Hi Mytruth, a warm welcome to the site.
What is the WTBTS for?
I would say that any institution with a mass following exists for the purpose of the continued benefit of its leadership and investors. In the case of the Watchtower organisation, the GB get the glory and the investors get some perverse satisfaction from being emotionally dependant drones, condemned to a lifetime of abject grovelling to the leadership.
They claim to be the one and only agency of God's truth on Earth...... a preposterous story!
"The Bible is God's word". An oft repeated axiom which does not stand up to intelligent investigation. Bible stories were written exclusively by humans mainly at the bidding of those in power to control the lower orders and if this was not the initial reason for a text, it was frequently doctored to do so.
“The heavenly King is already ruling”........... more unfounded bluster.
“Paradise is just around the corner”: it is always just around the corner, it always has been just around the corner and it will remain just around the corner forever. This is the trump card for doomsday cults. Armageddon would be a financial disaster for them...much better to be in a permanent state of expectancy. Say that you are the only true true religion and that God is only backing your business... and you will get any number of idiots rolling up to join. As long as enough gullible punters believe this “Bible-based” hype, there will be support and money to perpetuate the WTBTS.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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So over all what is wtbts purpose? #13 [-]
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I've heard some people talk about .... What's stopping them from doing like a cyanide-laced Kool-Aid scheme like other cults? But I can't see anything like that happening only because what benefit does that really have to anyone?
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Jim Jones ordered his followers to kill themselves and others when he began to lose control of the cult. (Not everyone in Jonestown drank the Kool-Aid willingly. Children were forced to swallow the poison. Others were forcibly injected or shot trying to escape.) Dozens of followers deciding to leave was the beginning of the end and he knew it. For Jones, killing 900 people was the ultimate statement of the power he had over them. Life and death is the greatest power you can ever have over another person. The GB already has this. Look at how many JWs have allowed themselves to die rather than accept blood transfusions or rather than getting a party card in Malawi. Why? Because a group of men told them this was what God wanted. When it comes down to it, there's really no differance between that and drinking the Kool-Aid. The GB has innocent blood on their hands.
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Inheritances.
The revenue from the ministry is chump change. The WTBTS makes it's big bucks on alienating families to the point that they alone seem to be the only reasonable place to leave a life's legacy. They sell "the stairway to heaven" .
The true purpose of the WTBTS is to sell the stairway to heaven to their elder believers, by promising a 'fast pass', or leg up to the kingdom of god through their wills and estates.
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in our collective psyche.....mankind needs a nanny...or a king over us
and another part of our collective psyche turns up to be our nanny or king...step up watchtower and every other controlling religion and government office/control freak to give us exactly what we desire....however
remember this bit of the bible?
6 But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the Lord. 7 And the Lord told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will claim as his rights.”
10 Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will claim as his rights: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your male and female servants and the best of your cattle[c] and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, but the Lord will not answer you in that day.”
the same allegory is when satan entered david when he wanted to "number" the people
http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/1024.htm
and as it says above..........when it gets too oppressive....there will be no answer.....i.e...you make your bed...lie in it...you want nannied...and looked after....you will get it in spades...so dont complain when you've got a camera in your living room a la 1984...you wanted it...you consented to it
do not consent...do not let the vampires over your threshhold...do not contract with the devil......its all about us...not some sky daddy...we have to sort our own shit out...learn to say...."NO"...we have grown up
there is no guy from the sky coming to help us.....NONE
we have nannies over us because collectively we are children......however...mankind is awakening from this stupor.......and that is why "sovereign" movements...and "freeman" movements are increasing....
at the end of every age...a common theme appears......set my people free....let my people go....the truth will set you free.....i.e.....we grow up and no longer need a tutor.....so beat it watchtower...and your ilk...your services are no longer required
thanks for being our tutor though....now piss off....he he :)
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this is why the bible says.... (paraphrasing) in that day they will no longer need laws written in stone.....it will be written in our hearts
the laws written in stone are your lords
written in your heart....you have grown up and accept your responsibilities
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I agree with Andria that there isn't a secret society within them. I was at Bethel. I cleaned at least one of the GB's rooms and got to know 'how they tick' pretty well. They are just as delusional and truly believe they are right and doing the right thing. They are not about money at all except for the hoarding of it and not spending a penny like a lot from those generations. They were quite thrifty.
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And they just like keeping all the money and storing it up --which I guess is a good thing considering all the lawsuits! They need it now. They definitely don't like spending a dime and I never knew of any time they actually helped anyone out with the funds. They would just ask for more from everyone when certain crisis situations arose in other countries.
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I posted a long time ago that during 9/11 attack I forgot exactly how it went but the brothers wanted to use the ambulance to offer any assistance they could and anything else to NYC. They actually thought they were going to met with a big "no" from the powers that be and were ready for a mutiny as everyone was so upset. But thankfully they met with a "yes" --- but doesn't that speak volumes as to the fact that the 'worker bees' didn't think they were going to be able to assist without an internal fight? The fact they thought they were going to be told 'no' ? That says it all to me.
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So over all what is wtbts purpose?
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status offlinebirdwoman2
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Okay.
So it is concensus that the WTS is about money.
Andriaisfree says that they don't like to part with their money either.
So...how come they have spent loads and loads of money promoting their noblood movement?
I realize that the majority of readers who have been exposed to the propaganda put out by the WTS concerning noblood accept the notion that the noblood is a policy that the WTS has used to establish difference and to get noticed as such.
All I see on the surface is that the noblood doctrine is a huge expense for the Society.
They have invested huge amounts of money and manpower in the noblood doctrine.
Why?
Why does the WTS have so many of their Hospital Liasion men involved in bloodless medicine?
Why have they spent so much money and time in establishing a doctrine that costs them huge amounts of money ?
Does that expense of maintaining and utilizing legal teams, publishing and promoting noblood literature, training and supporting hospital liasion teams, and lobbying medical professionals, really get balanced out by estates and wills???
The notion that the WTS has invested so much in promoting no blood with no return other than establishing that they are different than others religions is not logical. They are a corporate structure designed to make money. If they invest in the no blood doctrine it means that there is profit for them in doing so.
If they weren't making money in the bloodless medicine industry, they wouldn't be investing in it.
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Here's an alternative reason why the org has spent money on the no-blood industry. No so much to make money...I can't see the evidence for that... but to avoid colossal litigation awards to the families of those who have died obeying their dangerous beliefs. I suggest is to save its present wealth and name from the accusation that it is a heartless cult, even after giving out directives which have resulted in causing many deaths.
The Watchtower governing body are accountable for this reckless doctrine.
Perhaps the bloodless surgery business might be proffered as evidence in a public trial that “they care.” Of course they care but not for the feelings of the rank and file, not for the bereaved but only for their own privilege to direct their flock without public interference or censure and most of all they care about not losing their wealth.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
Last Edited By: half banana 5 days ago. Edited 1 times.
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Nope. I don't buy into the flimsy excuse that the WTS was preventing lawsuits from families.
If the WTS wanted to prevent lawsuits it would be far more efficient to drop the two witness rule on sex abuse.
Nope. I don't buy it. Just because you don't see the profit doesnt mean it isnt there. It just means you dont see it.
And since when does the WTS care about more than the bottom line on profit.
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I agree with half banana. As partly a reason. I'm really not seeing how its cosTs lots of money. All the brothers on the liaison committees are volunteering their time. The only issue they have had in this regard is legal. and again thEir lawyers are also volunteers even outside lawyers. True they have had To Probably hire some other ones outside but most are donating their time as well. They are only paying for court costs if something reach of the court. and of course they are concerned with religious freedoms so fighting for the blood issue to them would also represent other issues as well. That 2 witness rule thing has been fairly recent within the last few years of that being publicly exposed so no doubt they will do something at some point to change that. The blood issue has been going on for decades. and to clarify I did not say they are all about money. They are all about keeping it once they get it just like a lot of older people are. They strongly believe as I said before what they are preaching and teaching and are delusional about it:. not every thing they do and decide upon is about money. They have their beliefs which they will stick to no matter what.
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Birdy I am still awaiting hard evidence for financial gain to the WTBTS for their interest in bloodless surgery. Have you any?
As I mentioned I do know one of the individuals making a lot of money from the ‘management‘ of bloodless surgery and if his position represents others, it is the profit motive at play not Watchtower capitalism, he is not a religious idealist or Watchtower ‘company man’ at all, he is a successful entrepreneur and has been all his working life although a JW by family tradition .
I think that beyond the sanctioning of the blood management by the org, there is a great sense of ungodly pride in its success as it appears to validate the organisation's point of view. Therefore permitting others to financially gain from it, feeds their collective ego.
Nevertheless hard evidence as to Watchtower financial benefits from BS (Bloodless Surgery) would be very telling....... BS after all is their staple product!
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
Last Edited By: half banana 4 days ago. Edited 1 times.
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Well, I guess I will just keep hitting my head against the watchtower wall that has been built around the blood issue.
There is far far more invested in the noblood movement than just 'volunteer' liasion dudes.
I have already shown how and where the WTS has spent money on promotional material that is rarely if ever seen by the rank and file.
Does that expense fall under promoting the good news?
Do you think that the noblood literature and promotional material just materializes out of thin air?
I think that the rank and file accepts the invisible cost of maintaining the suicide directives simply out of intense fear that they may be the ones that may need to face an unnecessary death. And the exjws maintain that template quite simply because it is a comfort zone that is too difficult to examine. If anyone is looking for a financial balance sheet on this it isnt there. But I will repeat that a corporation that spends money on something is making money on it. That is the abc's of corporate money making. I don't care if they don't publicize their profits in the blood industry. If you were the WTS would you make that public? I have already given hard evidence as to where the WTS has spent money and time promoting bloodless medicine. Why is that not enough? Is this such a hard concept to grasp? Am I the only one that knows that 1 plus 1 equals 2? If you are holding out for hard evidence of the profits, then the WTS simply gets away with murder because of being unable to 'find the bodies'. And asking for that hard evidence is a start and looking for it is something that I hope more will devote some time and effort to.
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And by the way, halfbanana, I think more people than just you should start demanding answers and looking for evidence of the Society's complicity and involvement in the bloodless medicine industry.
“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”
- Susan B. Anthony
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You've posted some real interesting stuff on blood in the past birdwoman. Like the ties between Rutherford and the people who started the bloodless industry.
And it is an industry. And they were friends with Rutherford.
I think the doctrine is a vestige from that relationship.
It's important to remember that in order to become a head hancho there you pretty much have to be a lifelong victim of the ideology. I don't expect every financial move from them to make sense. Too much of their lives are based on fear of change and the unknown.
-Dave
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Yes, Dave, I have posted much about the relationships, many and entwined, between the Society and the bloodless industry. And there is much I haven't posted because the information is so bulky and involved.
People keep asking for evidence of financial profit and that is something that is within the scope of people with better connections than what I have. smiley: wink
However, what is indisputable is that the Society has been heavily involved and complicate in the bloodless industry on many levels. Whether that is financial or not is yet to be seen and I am confident that the future at some point will reveal far more than what most have bargained for. The audacity of the Society in their moves historically is astounding - their unethical behaviour and callous disregard for human life is yet to be fully revealed. A person need only to do some digging into the bloodless industry and put together a timeline comparing doctrine and experimental procedures and the Society's true evilness is revealed.
Oh. And don't forget the UN involvement and how that impacts the bloodlesss industry - and how the UN resolution that states refusal of medical treatment is now a global human right...or something like that...was printed on the back of some of the 'noblood' cards promoted by JW dudes. And how that resolution was passed right about the time everybody was wondering why the Society had a UN membership.
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5ba26c01bcb480de583372afdbb3351499092ba3
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*from the mybloodsite
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If the Society and or people connected to that society, aren't the ones who are profiting from having a forced sample/control group to advance their bloodless technology, then the question begs to be asked - who is profiting?
Keep kicking at the darkness until it bleeds daylight.
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Do these no-blood companies have share-holders and if so is the WTBTS one of them? Perhaps they are just private management units and not legal companies? If so; is that significant?
What is the position of a tax-exempt religion or charity which promotes a business venture from its charity platform and consequently receives a financial return?
The WTBTS happily plays the stock market as a major international investor... why should they not invest in the business of “no blood” since it promotes their own brand? (Forget ethics and ”no part of the world”, it is taken for granted that they don’t actually follow Jesus’ line).
Any info anyone?
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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WELL DONE JUDGE!
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offlinesarahkate
WELL DONE JUDGE!
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2711158/High-Court-judge-orders-teenage-boy-given-life-saving-treatment-against-wishes-Jehovahs-Witness-mother.html Lets hope he makes a good recovery!Thumbs up!
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I can't believe that parents of children who are refused life-saving treatments, are not held accountable by the powers that be..............surely this constitutes child abuse??!! Oh no, silly me, so long as it is in the name of religion........parents can let their children die smiley: mad
I thought this excerpt from the article was sad..............what kind of retribution is that poor kid going to have to face if he survives........smiley: sick
At the time of the hearing on July 17, he was being fed by tube and was only intermittently awake.
However, medics had managed to explain to him during one of his periods of wakefulness what was intended.
'When asked for his view as to the use of plasma exchange treatment, T is reported to have nodded his head in agreement with a "thumbs-up" to go ahead with this treatment,' said the judge.
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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Murder ... suicide ...
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offlineAndriaSyxx
Murder ... suicide ...
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What a dreadful tragedy. This article was first published in January of this year. Just goes to show that no-one really knows what goes on behind closed doors ... and that Jehovah's Witnesses ARE in fact ... like everyone else.
A family of Jehovah's Witnesses have been found dead in their South Carolina home after what police say was a shocking murder-suicide.
The bodies of a couple - believed to be Sheddrick and Kia Miller - and their two young children were found Wednesday morning scattered throughout the family's two-story home near Irmo.
Police were called to the home around 10:30 a.m. after man's mother discovered the grim scene.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2540809/Jehovahs-Witness-couple-young-children-shot-dead-two-story-home-grandmother-grim-murder-suicide.html#ixzz2tvxCQXo1
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The scary thing about being a jw is some might feel that if things get too touch, they will just kill their whole family, then they will all be guaranteed a resurrection into paradise, except the killer, of course, but some may feel they'll give up their eternal life in order to guarantee it for their family. What a shame.
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Cacky,
You make avery good point. If one truly believes that there is no 'literal hell', and believes in the resurrection to eternal life, and is failing at providing for ones family..feeling depressed and alone, then one risks only one's own 'eternal life' by murdering one's own family. Add into the picture a fully indoctrinated wife and kids who are considered 'in good standing', have all their time cards in on time etc. According to the JW teachings they will be guaranteed a 'free pass' . It's not surprising that this type of thing continues to happen. As job layoffs happen, debt burdens go out of control, undiagnosed depression etc.. continue to happen to JW's, this type of thing will continue to occur.
The long standing 'free pass' loophole in their teachings is getting people killed.
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There is a man over here in Western Australia who used is 'former' religion (isn't it always 'former' when they've done something heinous and been caught?) ........... to sanction stabbing his estranged wife to death. He was worried for her spiritual safety and wanted to make sure she made it to the new system!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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OMGoodness! This is so sad.... I HATE reading sad stories :-(
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Me too Trish ........ it's bad enough when adults hurt one another, but to take the lives of innocent kids? That's just heinous in any form.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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That is so sad! Even as a young child I could see the potential danger in witnesses resurrection belief. If everyone I loved who wasn't a Witness died before Armageddon they get resurrected. So why not just kill them all and save their souls. Obviously I had no intention of ever acting on it, but for someone who was already unstable this cult could lead them on a mass murdering spree.
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The Williams sisters?
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The Williams sisters?
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2695694/Race-row-Cornish-festival-pub-landlord-friend-black-tennis-stars-Venus-Serena-Williams.html WTF
Sarahkate xx
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That's just daft, they were having a bit of fun in their own town. This PC ness has to stop.
I wonder what the Black and white Minstrels are doing now?
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
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Speak Out!
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offlineNoble Lion
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I am not a ex-Jw so I have no experience with them, but I do know quite a bit about them. I've done some research over the past year about them and talked to a few ex witnesses and a few current ones. I find it insulting that the Watchtower can lead 8 million people to believe that they are the true path to God and lie the way they do but alas, they are indeed a cult. If I can remember correctly the bible says that people like them who speak falsely for the lord should be put to death(Deuteronomy 18:20). Does anyone else have a similar feeling to mine,which is pure anger. I don't find anger in the witnesses themselves (For them I have sympathy not apathy) but to their leaders who use common mind control techniques to prey upon those who seek the Lord and truth. I mean if anything, the Lord wants us to question the world around us and look further into our Faith whilst doing so finding him. I actually found God through a Jehovah Witness( In which he never told me that he was one, but I did a little snooping and found out) who literally saved my life(A long story but I will post it because it is truly remarkable). Anyway to the matter of hand, don't you wish you could do something? I mean these people lead 8 million telling them that they are the truth while diminishing their faith in God and building their faith in the Watchtower. Let me know in the comments below if you are outraged by this. If so maybe we can put our heads together and break down the giant wall of lies they built around their people.
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As a former witness I cannot tell you how outraged I am at that cult. After 5 years of being disfellowshipped I am still affected by their brainwashing. I want nothing more than for that cult to be brought to light as the destructive monster it is and to free it's follows, including my parents. Everyone should know how corrupt and sinister their leaders are. I can't stand the thought of one more family being destroyed all for the greed of their leaders.
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Outraged? Of course! And lots of people have done things like written books and protested outside convention sites, and started local support groups, etc. to try to stop the madness.
I think this forum is a great way of speaking out. The more information and personal stories get out there on the internet, the more doubting JW's will be able to find real, practical help and get out. Esp. younger people who don't view the internet as a work of the devil!
I don't think any of us can crumble the WBTS from the top and break it all apart. But if what we do here can help even one person escape, good has been accomplished.
Valerie
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Let me know in the comments below if you are outraged by this. If so maybe we can put our heads together and break down the giant wall of lies they built around their people.
There's no problem finding people that are outraged by what the organization has done to them.
But as for "breaking down the wall of lies", I'm not sure HOW a person or group of people would be able to do this.
As Happygoat says, there's no shortage of books, websites, support groups and online forums that expose the JWs.
People have no problem "speaking out".
I have to say, I've noticed that the JWs are starting to fight fire with fire, by starting their own online forums and websites, to combat
the websites that are telling the truth about the organization. So we do the best we can to tell people the truth,
but you can't let it consume you.
Sometimes when I think about it, it is easy to let the anger and resentment over take me, but I
realize the only person I'm hurting by dwelling on those negative feelings is myself.
By allowing those bad feelings to fester, not only do you hurt yourself,
but the people you are so eager to convince that the JWs are harmful
will be turned off by your anger and bitterness.
Living a happy life is the best revenge.
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Last Edited By: palmel1234 5 days ago. Edited 2 times.
status offlineSwingLifeAway
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Check out the AAWA organization.
I am outraged. I live my life at a standard of excellence everyday as an ongoing testament to my worldly awesomeness. Suck it Watchtower!
-Dave
“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy.' They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
- John Lennon
status offlinesolitaire
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SwingLifeAway wrote:
Check out the AAWA organization.
I am outraged. I live my life at a standard of excellence everyday as an ongoing testament to my worldly awesomeness. Suck it Watchtower!
Awesome
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status offlineCacky
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I agree, living a happy, fulfilled life is the best way to get back at them, since they say that if you leave your life will be terrible.
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"Living well is the best revenge." I think the first time I heard that was from one of Johnny Carson's ex wives. But that part comes after the anger, then the grieving over the lost family or friends. Then living well with a passion is about the best thing a person can do to show that life is good outside the org.
Janet
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was anybody here at the atlanta convention?
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offlineda ninja
was anybody here at the atlanta convention?
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first off....sorry to hear that....he he
just curious......anyone here attend the one around the start of july?
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Have you been offered a Bible study with Jehovah’s Witnesses?
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onlinehalf banana
Have you been offered a Bible study with Jehovah’s Witnesses?
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Have you been offered a Bible study with Jehovah’s Witnesses?
If you value your life and freedom: do not proceed!
If you want to learn about the Bible, then do read what the scholars say who study Bible texts. (For starters try Finklestein and Silberman’s ”The Bible Unearthed,” Simon and Schuster 2002)
A “Bible study” with Jehovah’s Witnesses will not teach you why the Bible was formulated, instead it is about being thoroughly indoctrinated as a cult member. If you can’t spot the difference you could well be on the path to being a deluded JW.
Watchtower teaching is not only toxic, it is very difficult to erase once swallowed!
Wealth and education go hand-in-hand as do their opposites; poverty and ignorance. The crassness of the Watchtower delusion is the double blow that its teachings include the reprimand that worldly knowledge is undesirable and that the only worthwhile thing is to heed what their governing body tell them... which includes the avoidance of higher education. This condemns generations of JWs to wallow in a pit of ignorance and financial helplessness. This doctrine makes them needy and dependant. Is this where you want to be?
For people who are already suffering, out of work or uneducated... or all three, it confirms their lowly state and makes ignorance a virtue. There are dire consequences for individuals who blindly follow Watchtower instructions. To be a Jehovah’s Witness is to deny your birthright to free choice, free thought, free expression and personal development. Instead to become a JW is to be a servant and mental slave of the Watchtower organisation, with a delusional hope of imminent paradise and under threat of awful penalties should you want to change your allegiance.
Apart from that, everything in the JW religion is fine and dandy, except that you will be completely wasting the most precious thing you have:--- your very life.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
Last Edited By: half banana 4 days ago. Edited 2 times.
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A JW 'Bible study' isn't really a Bible study at all. Its a study of JW literature with the Bible being used to look up the occasional 'proof text': scriptures thrown in because they seem to 'prove' whatever point it is the JWs are trying to make. Those scriptures may have been taken out of their proper context. It's always a good idea to read the entire Bible passage to get the real sense of what the verse means.
I can vouch for 'The Bible Unearthed'. Its easy to understand and very interesting. Another book I could recommend is 'Women in Scripture' by Meyers, Craven and Kraemer, for a look at the Bible from a female viewpoint. Some of the points brought up were ones I had never thought of before. 'Crisis of Conscience' and 'In Search of Christian Freedom' by Raymond Franz are must reads for anyone who wants the truth about the WTBTS and what goes on behind the scenes. Franz is honest and candid without being angry or vindictive. Knowledge is power. Gather all you can so you can make a truly informed decision before getting involved with Jehovah's Witnesses.
Not all who wander are lost.- J.R.R. Tolkein
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Wealth and education go hand-in-hand as do their opposites; poverty and ignorance
This has only become apparent to me as I have been a part of the real world hb............their attitude towards education is so obviously a matter of control, so much easier to keep the 'peasants' in line when you remove the tools for learning and thinking as an individual!! It takes time to control a mind.....but as we know, it takes a damn long time to deprogramme too........becoming aware of the problem is only the beginning.......
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
Last Edited By: solitaire 6 days ago. Edited 1 times.
status offlineCacky
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I agree with all of the above.
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Is it even possible to completely deprogram? I've been out for years, but the voice is still there in the back of my head. Most of the time, it stays quiet. Every so often, it makes itself heard. 'What will the elders think if they drive by and see a Christmas tree in my window? I shouldn't read that book or watch that movie because it might bring demons into the house.' It's irrational and I know that, but it still keeps popping up. People who have never been in don't realize how deep-seated the affects can be, even years after you've left.
Not all who wander are lost.- J.R.R. Tolkein
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SG, is it even possible to deprogram completely? I think that the answer actually is yes but in a qualified way. As with any injury to the system, it leaves scars.
The promptings in the back of the brain have now long gone for me but every now and then even 24 years after my departure, I still dream I am at a KH meeting or witnessing to people yet guiltily knowing that what I tell them is not true.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
Last Edited By: half banana 5 days ago. Edited 1 times.
status offlinepalmel1234
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Great post, Half Banana,
I especially like this line because it sums up exactly what it means to be a JW in one perfect sentence.
To be a Jehovah’s Witness is to deny your birthright to free choice, free thought, free expression and personal development.
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status offlinewhytebyrd2
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This summer I have been checking out audio books on CD to listen to while on working on other things and some of the books I've checked out were:
Misquoting Jesus by Bart Ehrman
Beyond Belief, Reading Judas and the Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels
I will be looking for The Bible Unearthed! If it's not on audio books then I'll just have to sit and read it (or watch the video)
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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It is one thing to “study the Bible” and another to “study the Bible with Jehovah’s Witnesses”. The two things are not directly related. To study the Bible is to find out what it is about and how it came to be compiled, because it certainly is an important text in western culture. To study the Bible with JWs is to be inoculated against reason and to come under the spell of the seven governing body members.
As has been already mentioned, in a JW Bible study, the "Holy Word" is referred to in support of a belief as if the act of making a reference to a written text makes a thing true.
This makes the false assumption that any and every sentence or phrase the Bible contains is sacred, incontrovertible truth. This is the folly underpinning all of JW thinking.
It is the primary and most far reaching mistake of all Judeo-Christian belief.
Before scientific methodology, a community interpretation of the Bible stood as a means of giving that community a straight-edge or moral boundary by which they could assume a civilised mode of life. Nowadays we do not need the Bible! Fear of God and sentiment for this ancient book of rules has been replaced in most societies by an enlightened, science-based and benign democracy...long may it continue!
Meanwhile... back at the Unicorn Ranch in New York, the seven blind dwarfs continue to lash their humble true believers metaphorically with their long knotted whips..............
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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Has this happened to you?
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offlineApostateProud
Has this happened to you?
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Jul 23 14 6:36 AM
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I'm new to the site so I'm not sure this is the right forum but...
When I have told people I grew up in a cult the first thing they ask is "did they make you drink kool aid?" Or "did you all wear dark robes and chant and do crazy rituals?" When I say no, they seem to blow me off. I tell them I was a JW and most people think it's just a silly fake religion to laugh at, but it's so much more than that. JWs are just as much as a cult as any other. No we haven't had a mass suicide, but one letter from the Governing Body and it could easily be done.
So my question is has anyone else experienced people telling them JWs aren't a cult, when you know first hand that it is?
Last Edited By: ApostateProud Jul 23 14 6:54 AM. Edited 1 time.
status offlinepalmel1234
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I usually don't start off by saying I was raised up in a cult. When you say cult right away people's minds start running with all the stereotypes like you gave - i.e. drinking kool-aid, having to perform crazy rituals. People don't realize most cults aren't always that obvious.
What I do is say I was raised JW and explain a little bit about how it was growing up a JW. Then I go on to say "They really are like a cult and here's why - they only follow the rules as set out by a group of men, they aren't supposed to associate with nonJWs, and they are expected to donate most of their time and money to the organization, so when you think about it, they really are a cult."
I also then mention how most people that are in cults don't realize they're actually in one because that's how cults works. No one ever says, "Hey, want to join my cult?" smiley: laugh They wouldn't get that many members that way.
You have to understand, most people know very little about JWs and their practices. I've even met a few people who have never even heard of them before. So to say right off the bat, I was a JW and they're a cult, I could see why some people would disagree with that.
However, I haven't had anyone disagree with me once I explain WHY they're a cult. Sometimes, I don't even bother explaining that they're a cult. A lot of times once I describe their practices, the person will come to that conclusion themselves.
I just explain what they do, how you're not allowed to question the governing body or read anything critical about it, or how there's no easy way to leave the organization and the person will say, "Gee, they sound just like a cult." Wow, ya think? smiley: wink
http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/179443/working_mom.html
Last Edited By: palmel1234 Jul 23 14 8:38 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineMagician03
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Great points Palmel....
AP...congrats on finding this site and the path that you are on.
I was also born into the "Cult" and that alone can be difficult to overcome, as we did not have a comparison like others that may have been of other faiths.
In your exploration you will undoubtedly come to other realizations also.
The WTBTS denial of NGO membership in the UN.....unfortunately proven true.
The thousands of child abuse cases here and in Europe.
Regarding the drinking of the "Kool Aid"....no it has not happened nor do I even suspect that it could happen...however....there are already THOUSANDS of deaths by loyal followers abiding by needless rules and regulations.
Families gathering together to ban simple life saving blood transfusions......I have heard numbers estimated as high as 100 k deaths to date.
This is a good place to start your journey.
Elton
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that almost universally
Last Edited By: Sola Espiritus Jul 25 14 9:05 PM. Edited 3 times.
status offlineCacky
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I'm currently not working, so don't see that many people, but I notice that when I talk with people, like neighbors, I hold back telling them I had been a jw. Religion just hasn't come up in conversations, and I don't feel any need to come out and tell them. But if I did, I think I would tell them that I had been a jw, rather than wording it as saying I had been in a cult. With the jws, it would take some explaining that it is a cult, since they don't live in communes, like most people think of cults as doing.
status offlinesolitaire
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Yeh - most people (most practicing jw's included) think of cults as outlandish groups, usually run by one person, who segregate themselves from everyone maybe in some type of commune....where the young girls are preyed upon by the self-proclaimed 'leader'...
We know better than anyone else that although to the outside world the jw's are 'batty but harmless', that is why they are so dangerous to those who become enmeshed.........but mind control is the same no matter how its practiced, and being 'no part of the world' is the typical way to isolate individuals from any unbiased input, or self-questioning...
Although the definition of cult fits the religion perfectly, I don't tend to use the 'cult' word apart from with other ex's..........but I do explain that the jw's are anything but 'harmless........and never miss an opportunity to describe how dysfunctional and unhappy my childhood was because of their input...
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I always say I was raised in a very strict religious house , that way people get the perfect picture.... Me not being aloud to do anything because god says it's from the devil haha
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Yes AP, if I'm forced to reveal the situation I now try to excuse my stupidity of being a JW by admitting that for many years I was stuck in a cult. People then ask, "Which one" and I reply, ”Jehovah’s Witnesses” and they nod understandingly.
Of course it's mainly JWs who say they are not a cult so as Palmel says the members are duty bound to deny their culthood. ‘Cult’ is a perjorative term so we shouldn’t use it thoughtlessly. It does however fit the Watchtower society since in all its aims, exclusivity, leadership, propaganda, mind-control and life-style prescriptions; it ticks all the boxes which by common language describes a cult.
Solar Espiritus... welcome to the site! It’s always good to hear new posters. Have you something to tell us about your experience? (I’m sure you have!)
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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I have recently been answering the question about what the first half of my life was spent doing just as HB said: I was stuck in a cult.
I managed to be able to find work as a music teacher (violin instruction) and am around a lot of folks who got their college degrees in music and or spent their young adult years performing and so it's all I can think of to explain why I didn't do anything with my music until I was 41! It IS embarrassing.
It is also interesting that when I do explain my life of being born into a cult, people often mention how brave I was to get out. I always thought that was strange but upon listening to so many others on this board tell their stories I can see how it IS brave. The cost of leaving the cult are the loss of everyone, family and friends, that we have ever known and starting over from scratch in a world we were always told was so evil.
It is a Cult with a capital "C"!
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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Most of the people I associate with are uncomfortable discussing either politics or religion in order to maintain pleasantries. (I'm not afraid of talking about these topics, but I am more thoughtful in my choice of with whom I will discuss any touchy subjects than I have been in the past.)
As for discussing my 'cult' background I mostly avoid it. People just don't get it and I don't see my job as having to enlighten the world.
When the subject of my religious background comes up I say "I was raised by JWs to be a JW. Obviously it didn't take". Usually that ends the conversation. If they want to know more I let them lead the conversation and at every level evaluate their motives and direction the conversation is heading. Just because someone is curious doesn't mean I/you are required to satisfy their curiosity.
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I experienced prejudice from numerous people when they found out I was raised a JW, even though I was no longer part of it. They assumed I was still brainwashed without really knowing me and had really negative opinions about JWs. They'd either seen or heard how it tears families apart. I didn't want to be judged for something that had nothing to do with my current beliefs. So I quit telling people. I have some dear old worldly friends that knew me way back when I was first leaving, one of which fully understands the nature of the cult. However, no one I've met in the past 10 years or so has any clue about my past. I don't feel the need to tell them. If I want to talk to someone about it, I talk to my few old friends or to exJWs here.
status offlinepunkofnice
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Er...no tbh. Most peeps I speak to totally get it. Just tell them you discovered it was just a money making corporation behind the facade of religion.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
status offlineJoe Magarac
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I wasn't raised in it, but I have no problem with saying I was once mixed up in a cult, or that I was a "religious nut" for a while.
If it comes up, that is. I don't go out of my way etc.
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Stuck at the a$$embly
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offlineKefka6
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Ok so far the presenters seem to lack a basic understanding of history,science, how natural disasters work, physics, and most importantly reality, any advice on how to survive this without my brain melting???????
status offlineSwingLifeAway
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LSD
2-Fear-and-Loathing-in-Las-Vegas-quotes.
-Dave
“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy.' They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
- John Lennon
status offlineinspecterD
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Too bad you didn't bring head phones (I would really advise using head phones if possible) so you could listen to music or anything that makes more sense. Sorry that's all I've got. Apparently you are stuck in a three day assembly so you have two more of these days to deal with unless you get sick or something. Just sayin.
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Yeh...........take notes, copious notes...........and then you can share any new light with us smiley: tongue
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlinealexia
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You get though how we have always gotten through: numerous bathroom breaks, fake a cough so you need to get up, sleep, daydream, mints, smoke a little grass during lunch (we did this away from the Cow Palace) etc. smiley: tongue
status offlineKefka6
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Other things they don't grasp the concept of are sex, philosophy, government, and technology. Along with a few sprinkles of homophobia, and demonizing higher education ( hypocritically since we're in a stadium owned by a university) and metal music.
I and they also played a video that is the definition of propaganda showing the twin towers collapsing, altgoight the crying Chinese guy inthe video did make me laugh
status offlineSwingLifeAway
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they also played a video that is the definition of propaganda showing the twin towers collapsing
Can you please elaborate on this? I have never heard of them showing a video like this.
WHAT THE FUCK?
-Dave
“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy.' They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
- John Lennon
status offlineKefka6
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Basically they showed clips of war,people crying natural disasters and the twin towers collapsing to show just how "evul" the world is then they showed a clip of a dad crying cuz his daughter died , and the she was revived while in the background that god awful song from the songbook played in the background.
All in all infuriating and disgusting
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Kefka6 wrote:
Basically they showed clips of war,people crying natural disasters and the twin towers collapsing to show just how "evul" the world is then they showed a clip of a dad crying cuz his daughter died , and the she was revived while in the background that god awful song from the songbook played in the background.
All in all infuriating and disgusting Wow! That reminds me of the images in the Live Forever book. Disgusting.
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I wish back when I was still going to the snore fests that ebook readers had been invented. LOVE my Nook! Just the right size for disguising as a Bible.
status offlineKefka6
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So the first day is over nothing majorly stupid or offensive happened, but dat closing prayer though. My god I never thought I could hate adjectives as much as I do now.
status offlinealexia
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sg75 wrote:
I wish back when I was still going to the snore fests that ebook readers had been invented. LOVE my Nook! Just the right size for disguising as a Bible.
Right!! Or MP3/iPods, Smartphones, etc. I left back in the early 2000s when all we had was an Palm.
status offlineJoe Magarac
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Kefka6 wrote:
... how to survive this without my brain melting???????
I'm pretty sure the brain melting is an expected part of the deal.
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My new student is JW
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offlinewhytebyrd2
My new student is JW
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This happened to me a few years ago and the situation didn't last long because she moved. I don't know if she ever realized I was ex-JW.
Now I once again have a JW student. This new student is a different story. When she first signed up for violin lessons with me, during our first lesson I noticed how quickly she took to the instrument...a natural! She is 15 years old and her mom said that this is something she's wanted to do for a long time and I'm so glad she's finally getting started. The thing that struck me early on was when I was showing her some simple tunes and jingle bells was one of them. It is an important little tune for teaching Left hand position. Anyway, I noticed she was reluctant to play it. My first thought was that maybe she just didn't like the tune but she was zooming right along with everything else and stopped dead with that one. I also noted her body language and a certain look that reminded me of a young girl I knew long ago...myself. So I found an alternative tune the next week but thought I'd test my suspicion (no mention of being a JW had yet been made. It was just a hunch on my part) So I chose a little tune called a Fairy Lullaby. Sure enough, she was enthusiastically playing other tunes I introduced but didn't want to play that one. My heart just sank because I really am enjoying teaching this young lady and she has the gift! I ran my hunch past one of my colleagues and she was interested because she never would have picked up on a reluctance to play something being because of religious belief. The next lesson was different in that I discovered that she liked The Lord of The Rings...I had the music out on my stand from the previous student. I thought maybe my hunch had been wrong and a weight lifted off of me.
Well, this week the Jingle Bells thing came up again and she stated that she couldn't play it because she was a Jehovah's Witness like I was automatically supposed to understand that. I DID understand, though. I just said 'it's just a winter song but that there were plenty of other tunes to learn. ' and we went on with the lesson.
So the weight descended upon me once again. There are so many feelings I am having with this. First off, I see the young ME in her and a part of me wants to scream and protect her. Then there's the thought that if I lose this student because they find out WHO I am from the local congregation I am going to just be so angry. This religion will then be undermining my means of making a living and believe me, as much as I love teaching, it's pretty lean most months. And I like this young gal. And I like her parents.
Well there it is. Any suggestions?
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
Last Edited By: whytebyrd2 Jul 19 14 7:51 PM. Edited 1 time.
status offlineMystla
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Keep being yourself and teach her as much as you can in whatever time she'll let you. Worst case scenario, she finds out that you're an ex-jw. The more time you have spent with her in the mean time, the more she will be faced with the reality of who you really are, not just the label they put on you. The fact that you aren't some evil goblin dying of drugs and stds goes against everything she is being taught about "apostates." You are proving them wrong with every word and action!
You are a wonderful, caring person who can share with her a love of music. She'll get more from you in a few months than she has in a lifetime from her "brothers and sisters."
((hugs))
"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago; the second best time is now"
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status offlinemytruth
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Just one day say to her, do me a favor sweetheart before you get baptized , please please be open to researching what your doing, of corse read about it in the watchtower library and also read about it online, listen to people on your tube and make sure when you dedicate yourself to something you really know what your doing because it's a much bigger decision then you think
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Lol you'll never see her again if she doesn't like what you say, if she does.... She'll come back and ask more
status offlinesg75
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I wouldn't worry about her finding out you're an exJW until it happens. It may never happen and the dread and worry you're feeling about it might only poison the joy you take in teaching this girl. Whatever happens, let her know you will always care what happens to her and be there if she needs someone to talk to. Someday she may need someone like you to turn to.
Not all who wander are lost.- J.R.R. Tolkein
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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I agree with Misty ..... just keep being your beautiful musical self and if it means finding alternative songs to the ones you usually use for finger and hand exercises, then I'm sure that won't take you long. It is sad that she has that unhealthy fear of a piece of music. It's just a piece of music. Sadly to the young jdub kids raised with that level of fear about all things Christmas or 'demon' type things (aka the fairy music) ............... they can't see beyond the fear. It has more to do with what other people would think than what their god would think.
I wouldn't say anything about being a former jdub either as there's no need to. If the news does come out ... by then she will already have formed her opinion about the wonderful music teacher that you are, and deep in her heart she will have doubts as to how awful you're supposed to be given you're an apostate. She's young and she's being allowed to be taught music by a 'worldly' person ....... her mum may have just given her the best gift of all as the cherry on top of the music Sharon! That gift being the freedom to learn something fun.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineLocutus
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Sharon,
I'd say the best thing to do is what most other teachers do. Self-edit around the situation and do everything in your power to avoid setting off her pre-set triggers. The more time she enjoys with 'worldly' people and 'apostates', the better. Your knowledge of her mythology is an advantage here. Other music teachers would be baffled.
There is nothing to be gained by admitting your history, or by challenging her beliefs. Just work around the challenges presented and keep professional. It's just a job.
status offlineJanets Dolls
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My feeling is to just go on being her teacher. Now that you know, you can avoid music that she can't or won't play. Just keep teaching her. And always be your good and kind and happy self. By the time she finds out, if she does, all this time spent with you will leave an impression on her. There's not much more you can do.
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I think the advice has been good... but I can also understand your apprehension. On the one hand, you go on teaching her, and she will see what a loving, caring person you are, then whammo-bammo, her parents find out you're exJW. Now you have built a relationship with her, and once again, there will be no winners, only losers. She loses because she must quit taking lessons from you, you lose because you have formed a teacher-student relationship and it would be hard to lose her both as a student and someone you closely identify with.
And then it could go the other way... if it came down to it, she will think long and hard about why you should be feared--the dissonance may get her to question all the nonsense. Tough situation Sharon... but I'm confident you will handle this well, regardless of what happens.
“The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn but to unlearn.” ~ Gloria Steinem
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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Thank you everybody for your comments. *sigh* No, I'm not planning on going ballistic with her and will just continue to teach, albeit with the added advantage of knowing what NOT to put down on the music stand.
I just know that if she disappears without a call or text I will experience the pangs I had with my daughter and my father.
NO, they are not winning by causing me deep distress. They (the JW.Org people a.k.a. The governing body) will just be showing themselves up once again to be a group with no love, no common decency and no natural affection.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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Aw Sharon...and they say lightening never strikes twice!! I can totally understand all of your feelings, especially with someone so young and so gifted with all thats going on in her life that you know without her having to tell you.......
But I agree with the others, you are teaching her the wonder that is being able to make the violin speak......and jw or not, you are bound to want to see her blossom and reach her full potential as an artist.......but all you can do is ignore her religious background at this time, and concentrate on nurturing her talent..
It may end up badly, and frustrating for both you and her.........but who knows, the very fact that she is being 'allowed' to concentrate on something so 'frivolous' as music just gives that faintest of hopes that she will be permitted to carry on with her musical journey........and we all know that the strangest of things can instigate our escape from the borg......maybe music will be hers smiley: smile
All of the above is only relevant of course so long as she is NOT being encourages by her mother in order to play kingdom melodies smiley: ohwell
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlinepalmel1234
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I just know that if she disappears without a call or text I will experience the pangs I had with my daughter and my father.
I know you don't want to go through that hurt again, Sharon, but just remember nothing is permanent. One day she will grow up, probably get married and stop taking lessons all together. Or she may move away. Just enjoy the time ya'll do have together, and keep in mind you are giving her the gift of music that will stay with her forever, even if your lessons don't.
Remember you are giving her a nice break from theocratic ministry and all that JW crap.
I took piano lessons for 7 years (from a worldly person) and she was careful to avoid any Christmas music. I am so glad I was able to take those lessons, it's a skill I value. Thanks to my lessons I'm now able to teach my girls how to read music.
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status offlineCee Cee
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If she's apprehensive about playing Jingle Bells, can you even imagine how she'd be if she knew she was learning from an living breathing apostate
Cee Cee
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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Cee Cee wrote:
If she's apprehensive about playing Jingle Bells, can you even imagine how she'd be if she knew she was learning from an living breathing apostate
Cee Cee
Exactly! So far she seems to like me alright and she leaves with a smile. She is mostly wanting to do fiddling and her eyes just sparkle when I play some Celtic jig or reel for her (I like to give little samples of things they could be playing if they practice well). Celtic music is what she wants to play. It would be interesting if she brought the JW songbook in. That other JW I taught for about a summer pulled the songbook out (songbook 2.0, not the current one) the 2nd or 3rd lesson! The beginning of 'We Thank you Jehovah' is pretty easy for a beginner so after thumbing through the book like I was looking for anything (I was looking specifically for that) I walked her through it. I wonder if that song is still in the newest songbook? I hope she Doesn't want to learn those tunes but I am also teaching her to read music so it might happen if my identity doesn't get blown. I also am wondering about how into the religion her parents are. I wonder if one or both are df'd or something themselves and hence, not talking to anyone at the hall. Questions, questions! Hey Mel, I guess I didn't mean it quite that way because no, it wouldn't be even comparable to losing family over the religion but it is the fact that it would be the religion and not just because of losing interest. I have plenty of students over the years that have moved on, usually going off to college so I'm used to that. I actually am now teaching the daughter of a former student who went off, got married and....well had some kids lol.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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status offlineFiguringitout20
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Tough situation. I would want to rescue her too! If my childhood wordly music teacher had asked me if my refusal to play holiday music was truly something coming from my heart or just something to keep my parents/other people at the hall happy, depending on the timing, I would have admitted the latter provided I knew she'd keep it confidential. There were so many times I wanted to talk to someone about how I wished the truth wasn't the truth.. However, there were also times I was gungho about the religion. It would be interesting to know what's really inside that head of hers. But she could very well be zealous about it. Your approach of not mentioning your past is for the best. Regardless of how she feels about it all, she most likely has those "apostate alarm bells" built in her. BTW, how cool that you are a music teacher!
status offlineCacky
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I used to work for my school district, and am hoping to get back on with them when an opening comes up. I worked at the before and after-school childcare program. I didn't have any jw students, but figured if I did get any, I would do what teachers do, and make sure there are generic things to do in place of holiday themed things available for the other kids. But I wouldn't tell the student he/she had to stick to the generic stuff, I'd let them decide what they wanted to do. I figure I'm not there to enforce their religion. But so far I haven't run into it. I would go along with what Mysty said, just keep away from the things you know she wouldn't be comfortable with. I hope she continues as your student.
status onlinehalf banana
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Whytebyrd, I wonder why Kingdom Melodies (maladies) are ‘ear-worms’ even if you haven’t heard them for years?
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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Uh, half banana... Was that the 'We thank you Jehovah' reference that is ringing in your ears?
Sorry
: / Today was another lesson and things are moving along well. She and her family really like the Celtic stuff apparently and that is certainly right up my alley! It was a good day.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
Last Edited By: whytebyrd2 6 days ago. Edited 3 times.
status offlinesolitaire
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OMG Sharon!! Maybe they see what a lovely person you are, and they have you in their sights for a bit of witnessing??!!
Maybe her mums shrewd and realises she can 'count' her hours spent with you smiley: smokin
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlinetinybluedot
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Hi Sharon, hope the lessons are still going OK. Awful that the JWs can somehow spoil what should just be a pleasure, but hey that's cults for you eh. Any contact with a real and genuine person can only do your student good, every minute spent away from the cult is a good thing; plus, of course, music nourishes the soul. Just what she needs. You're giving her the best chance she has, some real experience she won't forget.
Have you considered what you'll say if and when she tries to preach to you?
"Which to you, is more awe inspiring; that you were created for the sole purpose of worshiping a dictator in the sky who forbids the joys of life? Or that you and I are the product of billions of years of evolution through natural selection, with each molecule making up the human body having once been a part of a distant star through the process of stellar fusion, having erupted from a supernova to one day allow each of us to sit and ponder our own existence. We are the universe becoming self aware. You can keep your gods, i belong to something greater."- Levi Herbert
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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Tiny....you asked if I'd considered what I'd say if she tried to preach to me. Yeah. I've gone around and around that scenario in my mind and I think I might opt for dead silence. All I've ever gotten from giving my honest heartfelt replies to Jehovah's witnesses is grief and pain. I have decided that the next JW who should ever ask me why I don't come back to the Kingdom Hall I will say:
"I can't answer that question because the last few times I did I lost my aunt's, uncles, cousins, my daughter and first grand baby and finally my dying father. I'll take the 5th if you don't mind"
I love your signature quote BTW! My feelings exactly : )
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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Sex before marriage
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offlineWilletfel
Sex before marriage
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Feb 10 09 10:11 AM
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Okay, I have a question...for those that were baptised and married a fellow witness, did you have sex before you were married. I personally suspect alot of people do...
Did you have what sex before you were married (Result)
What's sex?
Of course not!
Came close but no.
Yes, once
Yes - a few times
Hell yes! Every night!
status offlineWilletfel
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Ok - now I can admit it, I voted YES. But hubby had lost his 'priviledges' for admitting a sin many months prior and we were denied the hall for the ceremony, so I don't even feel bad.
On the other hand, I know of one brother who is my hubby's age and was his 'friend' because my MIL forced him - he was the one always reporting to the elders what he saw the other JW kids do at school, and today he is an elder. I found out that he and his wife DID have sex before marriage, got married at the hall and after it was all said and done, came clean and lost their 'priviledges for a while. I don't know how in good conscience they could get married at the hall and THEN tell.
status offlineJuniperCreek
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Feb 10 09 10:25 AM
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I was out before this could happen to me, but I have two brothers still in. Both waited till marriage (both married at 17)
status offlineWilletfel
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To the person that voted HELL YES EVERY NIGHT, thanks, I was begining to feel like such a slut...lol
status offlineLavendergalUK
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I never married or had any relationship with a JWs because I was too ugly image
image
status offlineJuniperCreek
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Feb 10 09 11:36 AM
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Given the opportunity, nothing would have held me back. Personally I saw a lot of kids getting married too young so that they could have sex, that bothered me. That clan might be less depressed if they could try on the shoes before the purchase image
status offlineLovesBulldogs
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I waited until my wedding night, I was 19. After I recall thinking "so THIS is what people get d/f for??" . Because honestly it wasn't that good my first time.
It wasn't unusual for kids near my congregation (and in it) to get married right out of high school or even quitting school so that they could get married young. My mom got married at 16 (in the 1950's), my oldest sister quit school and got married at 16 (in late 70's) and my other sister quit school and got married at 16 as well (1981). I'm sure they were just horny and wanted to get it on without fear of disfellowshipping.
Frogs have it easy . . they just eat what bugs them.
status offlineLovesBulldogs
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LavendergalUK wrote:
I never married or had any relationship with a JWs because I was too ugly image
Excuse me??? You are gorgeous!
Frogs have it easy . . they just eat what bugs them.
status offlineWilletfel
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I think I should add that I got married at 26 - so I felt I'd waited long enough. Funny thing is hubby gave up his appartment in June but only got his new appartment in August - so for a month he had no place to go, he'd sleep in his truck. Well one day he came over (alone, yup we were bad...). We were watching TV and one thing led to another...unfortunately the first thing out of his mouth after was 'SHIT'. Not exactly what I'd hoped for.
The next weekend after that was the district assembly and a friend of mine said...you and your BF look close, did something happen? What, was it written on my face? She said 'I don't know, it's just that you look really close and usually that happens when you're more intimate...'.
Wierd...
status offlineWilletfel
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Jackie - you are NOT too ugly! And even if you had been, I've seen some might ugly married JW's...
status offlineScarlett
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Willetfel wrote:
To the person that voted HELL YES EVERY NIGHT, thanks, I was begining to feel like such a slut...lol
I'll fess up. It was me image
So it's not like every night, but i have been sexually active for 10 years with more than one person. My conscience never bothered me enough to turn myself it. I always picked my partners carefully, staying away from the braggers that talk to much. I have gotten busy with witnesses and non witnesses. I have been in a 3way with another couple (the woman was great, the guy was garbage LOL)
I'm still not married although my BF and I plan on getting married in a couple of years.
status offlinePattyb1117
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I was a 23-year-old virgin when I got married. Pathetic.
"And in that moment, everything I knew to be true about myself up until then was gone. I was acting like another woman, yet I was more myself than ever before."
From Bridges of Madison County
Patty
status offlinenewagegirl
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I was a virgin until I was 18 when I got married. We fooled around a lot before the wedding but we never went all the way. We told on ourselves before our wedding and were publicly reproved for it. Their reason behind that was because our relationship had started while he was in another congregation and there was speculation there so since there was two congregations involved it automatically had to go public. We were denied the KH. Most of my friends wouldn't be in our wedding and we suffered a lot of embarrassment for doing what we thought was the right thing
A friend of mine and her husband went really far too, to the point where she gave him a blow job once or twice before they got married. She told me this a couple of years after their wedding. Of course they kept it a secret and got married in the hall, with all the hoopla and hurray that comes with having a big JW wedding. Her husband was now a Ministerial Servant and she had really bad guilt for it. Finally after about six years she couldn't take the guilt anymore and they went to the elders. Expecting a story of grief that he was going to be removed for lying and having a dishonorable marriage, instead the elders told them that their guilt was punishment enough and nothing else had to happen. I felt bad because I wanted to be happy for her but inside I was IRATE.
Just a few weeks ago I read an ex-elders story of going to an elders school where they were told of a new arrangement that had been made for those in a position to be able to keep their position if their sin had been in the past and they were no longer doing it. It all made sense after that. Grrrrr!!
Every time I try to talk to someone it's "sorry this" and "forgive me that" and "I'm not worthy" - God
status offlinealexia
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I had to vote "hell yeah" on this one. I had sex long before I got engaged to anyone. Getting married was to keep me spared during the big A.
status offlineNewTracy
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I was out before I could get married. So didn't answer your poll.
I'm still not married, have never been, have three kids so umm yeah! Sod that!
There is this elder that brought (i say brought for need of a new word) my mum in. Never married, never had kids and lived at home with mum and dad waiting for A....he's still waiting bless him and I considered him pretty aged back then lol
PS Jackie stop that.... I wont hear my friends make such false statements about themselves!
Tracy formerly known as bogit!image
status offlinefreebird
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I also got married at 19 and waited till the wedding nite. Its a shame people get married so young and often to the wrong person just because they want sex and dont want to get in trouble. Years ago I would of thought living together before marriage was unquestionable but now I say how can you know if you want to marry someone for life without trying out the product first. I think most young witnesses are disappointed after the wedding day.
status offlinesuperpunk
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Wrong thread.
status offlineWilletfel
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superpunk wrote:
Wrong thread.
If you mean that I posted this in the wrong place, honestly I didn't know where to post it.
I didn't post it to engage in any kind of discussion about sex...and have not asked for membership to the sexual discussions board so I couldn't go there...
My main goal was that I've always had this question as to who follows that rule. This thread has taught me that whereas I thought alot of people did not get married virgins, I was wrong. Maybe it could have gone in doctrines or something...not sure.
Maybe you meant something else altogether...?
If this should be moved - please moderators, help me out.
Last Edited By: Willetfel Feb 10 09 5:46 PM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineSTEFFUNNY
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i had sex once before marriage...........im embarrassed to say this but i honestly thought me and the boy were just making out............i was so clueless............damn i was dumb
status offlineWilletfel
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Awww Stef, you would have needed a JC to question you and help you figure it out by asking if there was heavy petting and fondling of the breasts.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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I had already left the JW religious lifestyle when I had sex and yes ... it was before marriage! My older JW brother and his first wife DID have sex before they were married. They hid from everyone of course ... and justified it in their own minds because they were engaged at the time, due to be married shortly afterward ... and they used protection. Despite it sharing yourself with a loved one being totally natural to normal people ... I know my bro and his then fiancee felt really bad and were worried about being caught.
"... Don't let inherited or programmed fear and guilt drag you down
... life is for living not being afraid to live ...
so celebrate your freedom!"
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Sex before marriage
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status offlinesuperpunk
#21 [-]
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Feb 11 09 4:27 AM
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Willetfel wrote:
superpunk wrote:
Wrong thread.
If you mean that I posted this in the wrong place, honestly I didn't know where to post it.
I didn't post it to engage in any kind of discussion about sex...and have not asked for membership to the sexual discussions board so I couldn't go there...
My main goal was that I've always had this question as to who follows that rule. This thread has taught me that whereas I thought alot of people did not get married virgins, I was wrong. Maybe it could have gone in doctrines or something...not sure.
Maybe you meant something else altogether...?
If this should be moved - please moderators, help me out.
I had posted a response in here that was meant for another thread. Since you can't delete the post, I just edited it and removed all the text.
status offlineWilletfel
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superpunk wrote:
Willetfel wrote:
superpunk wrote:
Wrong thread.
If you mean that I posted this in the wrong place, honestly I didn't know where to post it.
I didn't post it to engage in any kind of discussion about sex...and have not asked for membership to the sexual discussions board so I couldn't go there...
My main goal was that I've always had this question as to who follows that rule. This thread has taught me that whereas I thought alot of people did not get married virgins, I was wrong. Maybe it could have gone in doctrines or something...not sure.
Maybe you meant something else altogether...?
If this should be moved - please moderators, help me out.
I had posted a response in here that was meant for another thread. Since you can't delete the post, I just edited it and removed all the text. image
Did you ever hear the one about the guy who's car is stuck in the snow and he's walking up to a nearby house to borrow the shovel and he thinks along the way 'Maybe he won't want to lend me the shovel. Maybe he'll be worried I'll break his shovel. Maybe he doesn't lend his tools to strangers, etc' and finally he gets to the house, rings the bell and says 'Why don't you just keep your damn shovel' .
HEHE.image
status offlinegreeneyes68
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Feb 11 09 10:09 AM
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I voted no, but came close. I was 20 and a virgin when I got married. There was a time period during my teens when my parents were 'inactive' and I dated a *worldly* boy for quite a while, but I'd had it drummed in my head that pre-marital sex was the WORST sin ever, so I remained a 'good girl'. In retrospect, I totally regret not sleeping with him. Hehehe
Now that I'm divorced I no longer hold to such a ridiculous standard.
I also know several who got married waaaay too young - such as 16 and 17 - and that did have sex before they got married, yet still had their big old showy KH wedding. Hypocrites.
status offlinenonconformist
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I was a 23-year-old virgin when I got married. Pathetic.
I'm even more pathetic: I was a 25-year-old virgin when I got married! So I voted no, but came close, which seems to be what most people have voted so far.
I absolutely agree that this ban on pre-marital sex is only messing up young lives because teenagers are getting married just to have sex and don't know enough about life, relationships and responsibilities yet. Better to have tried it, know what it's all about, confess if they feel guilty and get on with life!
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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It's not pathetic being a virgin! Goodness me ... there are men online who would PAY to break in a virgin ... and pay big time! You were merely a byproduct of how you were raised Non. I was raised the same and had I remained in the religion ... would probably have stayed a virgin until I was married to some boring JW person. I would have been way too frightened of being caught out as there were lots of tattle tale types where I used to live.
As Non mentioned above ... the JW ban on pre-marital sex DOES send a lot of young JWs headlong into early marriages. Most of the girls I grew up with were in serious relationships by aged 16 and married before they were even 20. Some may be happy ... most are probably not. They were dealing with more than just sex when they got married. It's a lot to take on board at such a young age ... even if it does work out for some of them.
I know there are many jokes circulating the internet and other places with the 'try before you buy' adage ... but it's not a bad idea. We don't go off and buy a house without checking it out properly ... we don't just buy a car on first glance without at least one test drive. Yet the JWs (and some other religions) expect their young ones to remain 'chaste' and virginal until marriage. I prefer to try before buying!
"... Don't let inherited or programmed fear and guilt drag you down
... life is for living not being afraid to live ...
so celebrate your freedom!"
Last Edited By: AndriaSyxx Feb 11 09 5:13 PM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineScarlett
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AndriaSyxx wrote:
I know there are many jokes circulating the internet and other places with the 'try before you buy' adage ... but it's not a bad idea. We don't go off and buy a house without checking it out properly ... we don't just buy a car on first glance without at least one test drive. Yet the JWs (and some other religions) expect their young ones to remain 'chaste' and virginal until marriage. I prefer to try before buying!
I test drove a few I knew i would NEVER marry image
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Getting married can become a costly adventure ... getting divorced can be worse! It stands to reason you'd want to try a few out prior to signing on the dotted line Scarlett!
"... Don't let inherited or programmed fear and guilt drag you down
... life is for living not being afraid to live ...
so celebrate your freedom!"
status offlinenewtotheworld
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I voted hell yeah! i never had a JW boyfreind and lost my virginity to my non jw bf about 8 months before i finally left the borg. waiting till we were married just wasn't going to happen lol
May those that love us, love us. And for those that do not love us, may God turn their hearts. And if he cannot turn their hearts, may he turn their ankles so we know them by their limping.
status offlineinventor
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Jun 24 14 2:14 PM
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No. I'm wayyy to unattractive, and shy for that type of interaction regardless of religious affiliation.
status offlineFiguringitout20
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I know this guy that is not what one would describe as traditionally attractive. In fact, I think many might initially find him unattractive. However, he's got the coolest laid back personality and he plays guitar, which is frankly kind of hot. Some people are lucky to have been born with good looks. But for those who are not, personality wins people over too. In the long run, personality is the deeper reason behind attraction. I know we've been telling you this, but seriously it's the truth! And I don't mean THE (JW) truth ;).
status offlineBilly Sugger
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I was 27 and got married....but used to fantasise and masturbate all the time, but never actually had sex until I got married ....then had to wait 3 days as my missus was 'on'.....then when it happened, no big deal, didn't enjoy it until I got a bit more confident and used to each others bodies.....then.....KABOOM!!!!!!
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
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status offlinewapontake
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I was a month shy of my 22 birthday and although we came close, I was a virgin. Then when I was in my 30's I did a stupid thing. I was made an elder and a few months later I realized that we had committed what could be classed as loose conduct so I confessed! The brothers who came to see me said that as it had happened a long time ago, that I had married the girl and that Jehovah had obviously 'blessed' me since that time, it would not affect my standing.
Why did Jehovah bless me after such a heinous sin? What BS.
Anyway, the other day, someone said, "I had sex with my wife before we were married. Did you?" I said, "I don't know, what's your wife's name?"
Steve
Why didn't Noah swat those two mosquitoes?
status offlinesolitaire
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Aw Steve when you look back at it, that is so sad!! What a good little elder you were......but of course if 'jehovah hadn't blessed you' (in other words if you had been a so-so jw).....then what you did would have been viewed as the gravest sin, and an excuse to d/f you smiley: tired
Of course it must be a blessing for you to be able to boast that you didn't 'sin' before marrying your second wife (or so Stacy tells me!!) smiley: wink
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlinesg75
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My now hubby and I lived together for two years before we got married. He was my first and only. I was 28 when I met him. We've been married almost seven years now. Even after I flat out told my JW mom that we were going to live in sin, I never faced a JC. I figured I would be DFd for sure.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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wapontake wrote:
Anyway, the other day, someone said, "I had sex with my wife before we were married. Did you?" I said, "I don't know, what's your wife's name?" 671362291bdb8d07204bdee302cf92f528b451aa
smiley: rollI needed a good laugh Steve! Thanks for that!
This is an oldie but a goldie type thread. I saw the 'Sex before marriage' topic heading and promptly reacted the way I did when this topic first caught my eye ...... a chuckle and a 'yes please'!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineinventor
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Figuringitout20 wrote:
I know this guy that is not what one would describe as traditionally attractive. In fact, I think many might initially find him unattractive. However, he's got the coolest laid back personality and he plays guitar, which is frankly kind of hot. Some people are lucky to have been born with good looks. But for those who are not, personality wins people over too. In the long run, personality is the deeper reason behind attraction. I know we've been telling you this, but seriously it's the truth! And I don't mean THE (JW) truth ;).
Idk, thanks though :)
status offlineCee Cee
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I "did it" one time with the worst S.O.B. I could find. [I was such a good Witness I didn't want to be the cause of another's destruction so I picked a guy I was certain had no chance at everlasting life.] GROAN! That was the only way I could think of get thrown out. FYI It worked. It took a while to find the worthwhile man I married and we were both experienced at relationships by that time and knew how sex could confuse one's judgement, so we decided let love grow before sex. It must have worked since neither of us has ever never known such intimacy with another person. The ties that bound us, love and eventually sex, were already strong before the wedding date. I have no regrets.
Cee Cee
status offlineeewx2
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Jun 27 14 7:59 AM
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I waited. Luckily it worked out, we are still married almost 15 years later, but we are FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE and we can do whatever we want. *wink*
status offlineinventor
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nonconformist wrote:
I was a 23-year-old virgin when I got married. Pathetic.
I'm even more pathetic: I was a 25-year-old virgin when I got married! So I voted no, but came close, which seems to be what most people have voted so far.
I absolutely agree that this ban on pre-marital sex is only messing up young lives because teenagers are getting married just to have sex and don't know enough about life, relationships and responsibilities yet. Better to have tried it, know what it's all about, confess if they feel guilty and get on with life!
Ugh I feel so pathetic too, I'm turning 24 this year, and I'm a virgin. I've thought about hiring a hooker, but I'm so afraid of STDS. I know it's stupid, but I just want to get rid of the label of being a virgin. I feel like if I don't lose my virginty soon I'm going end of with something like penile cancer - have to get it removed, and then I'd never have sex. Or like I'd have a brain tumor, and miss my chance. I have a compulsive fear of STDS, and dying a virgin, bad combo. Ok tmi, but had to get that off.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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I wouldn't go 'ugh' or feel pathetic about being a 24 year old virgin! When the right girl turns up for you Inventor ... she will have as much fun with you, as you will have with her! Don't rush your life mate ....... you are a long way off dying and being a virgin in a world where kids have sex so young these days, is something quite rare! My husband was 20 when he lost his virginity ...... to a 30 year old woman! She was SO bad. Still IS bad! Haha
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Sex before marriage
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status offlineinventor
#41 [-]
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Jun 29 14 8:17 PM
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AndriaSyxx wrote:
I wouldn't go 'ugh' or feel pathetic about being a 24 year old virgin! When the right girl turns up for you Inventor ... she will have as much fun with you, as you will have with her! Don't rush your life mate ....... you are a long way off dying and being a virgin in a world where kids have sex so young these days, is something quite rare! My husband was 20 when he lost his virginity ...... to a 30 year old woman! She was SO bad. Still IS bad! Haha
Idk, I feel rather pathetic :/
i feel a lot of pressure, most people have lost their virginty by now. I'm so behind. I've never even held hands with a girl, a girl hugged me once in a kh, I had a panic attack , and left.
status offlinesg75
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Jun 30 14 12:21 PM
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Hi, inventor. I was a 28 year old virgin when I met my husband. I used to think I would never meet anyone and resigned myself to being alone for life. Love can sneak up on you when you least expect it. If there was hope for me, there is definitely hope for you!
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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It's not pathetic to be a virgin. In fact I've been a 'born again' virgin a few times in my life. As in it's the first time I've slept with a particular person ... therefore I'm a virgin all over again! That's my story and I'm sticking with it!!! haha
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineinventor
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AndriaSyxx wrote:
It's not pathetic to be a virgin. In fact I've been a 'born again' virgin a few times in my life. As in it's the first time I've slept with a particular person ... therefore I'm a virgin all over again! That's my story and I'm sticking with it!!! haha
Thanks :)
born again virgin? That's a new one lol
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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I've been having so many internet problems of late...and it's still about how many discuss 'sex before marriage"?
Who gives a shit?
Give yourself a break because you may or may not have had sex before marriage. In this time of living, most people do and that's nothing to be ashamed of....although, religion might say something different.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Hallelujah Sister Linda ... I am a born again virgin many times over!!!!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinemytruth
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I did "other things" got reproved, did those things more .... Got dfed, had sex while I was dfed, now I'm back, but I have sex because I don't believe the bibles standards to be truth so it doesn't bother my conscience anymore, I think sex is beautiful and should be done when the time is right for the two people involved, not when a law or rule says it's okay to.... Where's the romance in planning a day out months and months ahead and your family and all your friends know it, and it's so staged and everything I just find the romance to be gone! Even my bf said him and his first wife had an awful first time, because it was so awkward. They didn't even have sex the first night
status offlineBilly Sugger
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Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
status offline1moxjdub
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Was dating a "bad girl" we were both 18 she was an elders daughter had already had a child. Her father lost his priviledges initially but later put her out of the house so that he could be restored. She had her own
apartment I used to go over there at least 3 days a week for about 6 months we broke up I met a girl who was saving herself for marriage. The original girl got upset and went to the elders (I denied everything)
there was not another witness so it was her word against mine. They let me know they didnt believe me. Continued to date new girl for about a year we got married Kingdom Hall wedding the whole 9. We were
not compatible in bed. I wish we would have been sleeping together prior to the marriage it would have saved both of us some heartache. But anyway that was many many years ago
status offlineCacky
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Jul 24 14 1:58 PM
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I wasn't a jw when we married, to I can't vote on this.
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Child abuse- Independent Newspaper 23rd May 2014
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offlinenevermind
Child abuse- Independent Newspaper 23rd May 2014
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/jehovahs-witness-abuse-victims-quizzed-by-their-attacker-at-church-9421040.html
Gross. You get sexually abused and then have to sit and let him interrogate you. I guess this is something you can drop by to your families. Just shows how insane their "child protection policies" are, and how they actually get handled.
status offlineApostateProud
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How sick! I remember being taught as a kid about the two eye witnesses rule. How fucking sick to not protect your children but their molesters!
status offlineCacky
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They are really getting caught with this, with so many reports now making it into the news. That's a good thing.
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Text messages from two elders
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offlinespbondgirl007.jwstrugglehelpf...
Text messages from two elders
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Jul 10 14 2:09 AM
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The info. below is for those of you who showed an interest in reading up on what the elders said to me after i emailed my letter (posted previously) to the congregation...enjoy!
Approx. three days after I sent my letter out to everyone in the congregation, one of the elders in my former congregation called. The first thing he wanted to talk about was subjection to the Org. Citing the example of Moses and Aaron, he discussed how the GB is being used by God today even though they make mistakes like Moses did when he commanded water to come out of the rock. The following is my response:
I thought a bit more about your example of Moses and Aaron. What you failed to mention was the fact that Moses’ single slip of the tongue cost him his life! In one moment of frustration, he "directed attention" to himself rather than Jah; spoke "rashly with his lips"; and "acted undutifully towards Jehovah" (insight book, p. 438) But the GB has a lengthy and ongoing track record of such offenses! What's worse is the fact that they pass the buck for these sins rather than show repentance. How do you think jah feels about all that? His dealings with Moses makes the answer to this question crystal clear.
...maybe you should consider these things the next time you put Jah and the GB on equal footing at one of the meetings. (I am alluding to a comment this elder made at a meeting once; it’s quoted in my letter…”whatever comes out of the mouth of Slave, consider this as coming out of the mouth of Jehovah”)
elder #1 response:
The questions I ask myself are like those of the apostles: "Whom shall we go to away to?" (John 6:68) Where did you learn the truth about the soul, the real condition of the dead, hellfire, the trinity, the paradise, the Kingdom, being "no part of this world", the 144,000, etc.? Was it from the churches of Christendom? Or was it from Jehovah' s Witnesses? Those from whom you get your information; where did they get whatever truths they have? From their own selves? or from Jehovah's Witnesses? Further, Jesus said that "this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth" during the last days. Who is doing this work today? The churches? Those who espouse your views? Do they follow the example of Jesus and the apostles, who "preached publicly and from house to house"? These are the questions that are so revealing as to whom Jehovah is using and blessing.
My response to elder #1:
I do appreciate that i gained a love of god's word from the witnesses but that in no way obligates me to worship the GB rather than jah. It doesn't somehow exempt me from the divine obligation to obey god as ruler rather than men; to test every inspired expression, etc. Had the rank and file understood this In the first century, they wouldn't have rejected the Lord's counsel to flee Jerusalem. Their religious leaders were "sons of Abraham" and “teachers of the law” but that did not excuse them from the responsibility to "make sure of all things".
Good afternoon! I would like to conclude my thoughts from last night....According to the scriptures, neither preaching nor any other "powerful works" cancels out the sinful practice of hypocrisy in Jah's eyes --under any circumstances. the Pharisees were "sons of Abraham", "teachers of the law" as mentioned previously, and yet The Lord condemned them for their double standards in worship..."woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you travel around by sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one of you, you make him twice as much of a son of Gehenna as yourselves." like these self-righteous men, JW's practice hypocrisy, i.e., do as I say, not as I do", so Matthew 23:15 above aptly applies to them as well. (also Matthew 23:3, 28; 7:21-23)
Elder #2:
I’ve read your letter and spoke with Bro. XXXX about your exchange w him. In light of all of that are you formally saying that you no longer want to be one of Jehovah's witnesses? We only ask that as a last resort as we would prefer to meet and discuss the matter. If however your mind is made up we will respect you decision. Thank you
My response to elder #2:
good morning...as I mentioned to bro. XXXX, there is no point in meeting with you two because there's nothing you can say that I haven't already heard and taken into consideration...I still worship Jah and talk to others about his truths but refuse to practice hypocrisy and bow down to an image--an Org.--as i once did. if you choose to disfellowship me, I know this is the real reason why (my refusal to obey the GB as ruler rather than God), for I spoke the whole truth and nothing but the truth in my letter.
Elder #2 response:
So let me get this straight one last time. You were taught what you call Gods truths through an organization that you now call an image that requires idolatry to be able to remain in its good graces. You say you learned this while in a spiritually weak state from those who were admitted apostates because the org would not listen and adopt some of their views.
And now your convinced that Jahs will for you going forward is to either teach bible truths you learned from an org you now disdain or try to convince former religous associates to adopt the view of your new group and develop the same disgust with this org and its slave that you and your group share.
Please consider 3 script pts
1. Who really is the faithful and discrete slave whom his master appt. If its not this one you must be saying its your new one
2. By their fruits you will recognize them. What righteous fruit has your group produced other than disdain for their former.
3. Not everyone saying lord lord will enter........but those doing the will of my Father. Is Jahs will for all his servants to be assoc w a group that took its very identity from an org that they now turn on and call apostate. Teaching others to hate this org and this slave is your whole ministry? Susan, you have a dead chicken on your neck and your calling it sweet smelling. Please meet w 2 of us. You have been over reached. Its not too late. Your brother still….XXXXX (Note: the “dead chicken” comment was kind of an inside joke)
My response to Elder #2:
Good morning…. In reply to your message, my study of the scriptures alone made it clear to me--long before I left--that Jah does not approve of the practice of hypocrisy; and yet I was continually required to preach/teach one thing but do another --or face expulsion from the congregation. (Matt. 23:3b, 28, 15; Romans 2:21) I believe I spelled that out very clearly in my letter. This realization had a snowball effect as it led me to question the scriptural accuracy of everything the Org. said and did from that point forward (acts 17:11; 1 john 4:1; prov. 146:3,4) Once I determined that the GB was not really the “faithful and discreet slave” as they claimed, it all made sense—the hypocrisy, consistent misapplication of God’s word, etc. It was at this point that I decided to leave. Approximately six months later, I discovered I wasn’t the only one who had seen and smelled the same “stinky”, lifeless chicken dangling from the GB’s neck :-) . So contrary to your assumption, I did not “learn this while in a spiritually weak state from those who were admitted apostates”. Rather, it was God’s word alone that led me to the light of “truth”-- something the Org. has ventured further and further away from over the years. (John 17:17) Speaking of God’s word, the similarities between apostate Jerusalem and the Watchtower Org. is truly uncanny—the self-righteous arrogance, false sense of security, the hypocrisy, etc. …yes, it’s not too late bro. XXXXX…”to begin fleeing to the mountains”. (Matt. 24:16)
status offlinesg75
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Jul 10 14 3:27 AM
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You are amazing. Respectful, yet you don't back down from what you believe. That elder telling you to be in subjection to the org just proved your point for you. What happened to "But as for us, we shall obey God as ruler than man?"
Last Edited By: sg75 Jul 10 14 3:30 AM. Edited 1 times.
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Wow!! Although I obviously read their comments (the usual blustering words which make no sense when you analyse them!!)...........its your replies that I really enjoyed!! They can never answer any of your comments without resorting to attack on you personally can they??!!
They have not even tried to show you scripturally why you are mistaken in your views..........just gotten out the good old 'fear stick' to try and beat you back into blind submission to the society smiley: sick
You never know though ......maybe even while they are trotting out their stock replies, something is niggling away in their minds.....they can either listen to that, or stick their fingers in their ears because they feel they have too much invested in these lies, to much to lose.....
Anyone who is not brainwashed can see by your communications with them that it is only they who are getting riled and using scare tactics!!
Well done smiley: smile
Sam
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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Good for you staying strong I am going to really need your guys help if I ever have to go through this myself :/
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You hit the nail on the head! There are many JW's out there with secret doubts, or as you said "something...niggling away in their minds." So when I communicate, I try to persuade by speaking their lingo. What better way to do that than with the bible itself? I find that often time, those who leave become so embittered and/or angry (understandably), that they are pretty much useless in helping others to wake up and hightail it out of there. By using the bible rather than sarcasm, crude humor, etc., we can fight fire with fire and hopefully rescue more captives trapped inside the Watchtower!smiley: smile
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Exactly!! That is why I am so impressed with your mails to them............it is SO hard to put yourself back in the mindset and talk to them reasonably when they are spouting the same old rubbish.................but as you say only by talking to them calmly, and not using what would be considered 'apostate' language to them, can you ever hope to get them to use their own cognitive abilities.
I know that when I was still in, I would never even listen to anything that appeared to be condemnatory about the religion, so treading carefully is the only way...............but you still deserve a medal for staying calm and in control, when all you really want to do is scream obscenities just to get some reaction smiley: tongue
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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Thank you SO much for posting their responses. They had nothing to say but the typical "scare tactics". You are so logical and to the point that they had no clear response. It is such an empty religion and belief system. And I found it rather amusing that clearly the one of them had given up and just wanted you to go away! They are so anxious to df you!
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Oh well handled Bondie! I can't imagine being told that I have a dead chicken around my neck .... what a tosser to say something like that. My guess is that you're supposed to buckled under all the pressure, realise where you are going wrong, repent your wicked ways and head back into the nearest hall with your fluffy sheep tail firmly tucked between your legs! They get a ten out of ten for effort don't they!
Don't give them the satisfaction of disfellowshipping you ... that's the only reason they want to meet and in pairs of course. They can't say that you're in denial and going against what they're suggesting if they don't have backup with one another. Keep your distance ... you're already winning!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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As expected, the elders shot and killed me with the shun gun on Wednesday night! My last communication with them was about two weeks prior (i posted the text messages on 7/10) so they didn't waste any time! The offense? Speaking scriptural truths to my JW neighbors! (Ephesians 4:25) Let this be a witness to Witnesses everywhere: disobedience to the GB, even in matters where these men have clearly deviated from God's Word, will not be tolerated under any circumstances! Remember this the next time you recite Acts 5:29 out in service or hear it quoted at a meeting!! Remember it the next time you shun a conscientious objector like me who refused to obey the GB as ruler rather than God!
status offlinespbondgirl007.jwstrugglehelpf...
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Thanks again to everyone here for your kind, supportive and humorous comments! I appreciate it more than you know!
Now that I'm disfellowshipped, it's full steam-ahead!! I intend to continue my crusade until 7 million JW's personally know my name!! lol
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I know that it still feels weird, even though we no longer fall under their rules.....................but tbh this is the only good thing that they will ever have done for you!!
Granted, its not done out of kindness or compassion....but you are now truly free to go full steam ahead with your life..........and no more texts or visits (Hugs))
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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Looks like they had you 'marked' from the outset Bondie. Sweetest and purest way to get back and the naysayers like that ... is to live your life as fully as you can, with as much love, fun and hugs as you can ............ and when they're all doddering around a decade on, still banging on about how the world will end 'soon' ....... you can just move on by them without so much as a backwards glance. Sadly some elders and others in the various halls around this big old world of ours ... only have power and control when they're in that religion. I'm sure it attracts 'that' type of person!
Enjoy your new found freedom! I've been enjoying mine for over three decades now and have never ever regretted my decision to get up and walk out that night!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Since my last meeting at the KH 2.5 years ago, I've earned two college degrees; gotten in the best shape of my life and rekindled old "worldly" friendships! :-) So I have definitely moved on with my life --and at a pretty rapid clip! (certainly beats living in a fishbowl surrounded by peering JW eyeballs 24/7!!) But now that I'm disfellowshipped, I no longer have to hide my identity which is such a big relief! I wanted to put off the inevitable (getting DF'ed) so that when i was ready (i.e., done with school), I could collect my thoughts, write my letter, then send it to everyone in my former Hall; had they DF'ed me previously, any attempts to communicate with them would have been futile--as you know. Happily, everything went according to my plan and now i am truly free!! No more fear...no more hiding...no more muzzle! :-D
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my story, finding my truth
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offlinemytruth
my story, finding my truth
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Jul 8 14 4:38 PM
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my whole life i have had questions and have been curious if what i believed and if the way i was raised was 'truth'. Being a witness you are afraid of having doubts, you think our a bad person if your not doing 'good' spiritually. you think researching anything but the bible or watchtower information is from satan. or 'bad'. so everytime i had questions i just kinda ignored it or pushed it aside like it didn't matter. i finally decided when i was 24 the reason i wasn't benefitting and having questions or feeling uncomfortable was probably because i have never given Jehovah a full chance. i never fully confessed everything i have done in the past. so i thought if i would just get everything that was eating me away from the inside out... out of me, then i would be a good girl. then i would be a real jw. someone jehovah can really love and appreciate. so i cam forward about everything and anything i could think of... i told on my friends, myself, my boyfriends. and more... and i thought i cleansed the congregation. like i was jehovahs messenger and his buddy his helper! i knew i was going to be disfellowshipped but i was proud! i was glad i was getting what i deserved. well when i tried to come back it was a very very depressing time in my life. and i thought coming back into the congregation was going to be just... amazing. and in reality... i was alone... and thats when i started having so many doubts... coming back from the outside in, i had so many more questions and so many more insecurities and it has been eating me away for a long time. finally one of my best friends told me, i should really do my own research on the bible, jw, and anything i have questions on... so i did just that.... but i finally let that wall down of being so afraid to look at any information anywhere that wasn't directly from 'jehvoah' and the more research i found, the more addicted i got. i cant stop now! my brain is unleashed... and i dont even mean on jw, bible, religion, it doesn't stop there it goes into sacred geometry, chi, spiritual minds, science, animals, i read fiction novels and i read all day! i cant get enough information and i feel like i'm finally truely living! trying new things and leanring new things veryday!
status offlineKefka6
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Jul 8 14 7:15 PM
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Hey there truthimage
I can relate with you about the guilt, or not doing good and asking the 'wrong' type of questions. I like the irony of your story, trying to be a better jw, lead you to escape the watchtower.
Anyway glad you found us and hope you stick around. :)
status offlinesg75
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image Hi, mytruth. Like you I felt guilty for just having questions, though I never dared ask them. Growing up it was drilled into my head that if you had questions your faith was weak. True faith (in JWland) meant you should never question or doubt, just accept. Openly questioning was challenging 'Jehovah's organization'. Now we're free to ask all the questions we want and read whatever we want, when we want to. It's a great feeling, isn't it? Not to feel guilty for reading this or that or be afraid of being caught reading a certain book? Funny how starved a brain is after being fed on JW 'spiritual food' for years. I love to read, always have, and I love to learn new things. Don't ever be afraid to ask questions and look for answers that make sense to you. The answers you find may not be the same as mine, but that's okay. Its a big, wonderful world with room in it for lots of differant people with their own viewpoints.
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Their attitude (thankfully) alienates so many good people from their organisation!! Their total lack of compassion is what caused me to leave, even though it was only after I left that I began to actually research their doctrines!!
Even when I was active I was never a believer in the d/f of members, but at usual I could get nowhere with any 'concerns' I had about jw rules!! That is to be expected I suppose, when every 'concern' is couched in 'apologectic' questions ..............after all, only the 'weak' question the mighty wbts!! It never sat well with me that they taught us about the prodigal son, and yet rather than welcoming a 'wayward' member with open arms, they punished them and isolated them........
They also taught that only jah can read hearts and minds, yet they quite easily make the decisions concerning who is to be punished!!!
I'm just glad that you had enough bravery to think for yourself even before you left.....at least you saved yourself the years of angst that I had from leaving what I still believed to be the 'truth'....
Sam
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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That's a good point Sam thanks for your encouragement, although for me, the hardest part is being honest and leaving, normally I wouldn't have respect for someone like me, staying anonymous, going to the Kingdom Hall, but hiding who I really am, but the truth is, my family is worth faking this right now, and when I get married (hopefully by this winter) I will move out and be done with pretending, unless I'm around my family then silence is golden haha my plan is to successfully fade away
status offlinesolitaire
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normally I wouldn't have respect for someone like me, staying anonymous, going to the Kingdom Hall, but hiding who I really am
yes but their cruel rules make us react this way......it's self-preservation!! There are not many things in life where simply for choosing your own beliefs you run the risk of losing those you love because of a man-made doctrine............besides, you will do things at your own pace and not be forced into revealing more than you want at any given time............they try to coerce you into remaining in the society by threatening to isolate you from everyone you know, and now that they no longer control your mind, they can no longer control your actions..............we only play by their rules when we still believe in the game!!
I am so glad that you have somebody you love and who loves you for what you are, rather than what you do or don't believe........for all the love that the jw's profess to hold for one another, they remove that 'love' just when you need it the most .......and a love that is dependant on your living a lie, rather than who and what you are as a person, is no love at all!!
So hold that head up high....you deserve every respect for being brave enough to be your own person.......you are a survivor as we all are, and so far we've lived to tell the tale (and lots of them lol!!)
Be patient.....and you will reclaim your life!!
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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Wow that made me cry solitaire thank you..... Just so not ready for this battle withy wedding coming soon.... I want my family there and to be happy but who knows at this point what will happen
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Mytruth ... you must do what works best for you and if that means biding your time and playing the jdub game, then go for it. We won't judge you for that ... so YOU shouldn't judge you for that either! We're not all cut from the same cloth and we handle ourselves differently because we're all very different ..... you're doing just fine honey. As Sam said ... be patient and you WILL reclaim your life!
If you don't want the fight from the family ... don't allow it to happen. If they start getting antsy with you ...... disarm the 'offender' by giving them a big broad smile and then a big snuggly hug with a firm "I LOVE you but I'm not fighting with you' and then walk off. Changing the subject as soon as things veer into the danger zones is also helpful ...... by now you already know the triggers ... so you can avoid them from hitting the hammer, so to speak. You will get through this .... and with your family intact hopefully. Sometimes we have to give them some cave time to get used to the fact that even though we love them dearly, we may not actually want to live life their way!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Thanks that makes me feel good about myself haha that's why I need you guys.... I just really hope this doesn't do forever damage to me and my mothers relationship, i even told her that, I said don't say anything that's gonna hurt me and your gonna regret it.... Your angry I get that but later you'll look back and regret hurting my feelings.
status offlineKBG
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Hey MyTruth,
Welcome! Guess I didn't start at the beginning with your posts, so it seems a little silly to say "Welcome" now.
Nice getting to know ya.
K
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😊 no problem nice to meet you too
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Maybe you could look at your relationship with your mum how I eventually had to Mytruth. If you really think about it ... you have no real idea what your mum would be like minus her religion and I'm the same with my mum. From the outset of being born ... both my parents have been under the influence of their religion and have been told over and over again by others how to raise their kids, how to live their lives, how to be happy, how to sacrifice everything INCLUDING their kids ... all for the glory of their god. I have no idea what my parents would have been like without that constant interference. Over the past three decades we have had our moments .... some where we're all close and loving, and others where I've had to take a step back and keep myself safe. My parents have made their religion a lifestyle choice and a long term habit. Just like a diehard addict ..... it's hard for our jdub parents to see beyond what they are told to see.
Keep calm ... keep hugging them ... keep telling them that you love them and you're still you .............. and hopefully your relationship will have more happy times than not. ((( hugs )))
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineAndreaIsFree
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as usual great advice has been given. Just do what you have to do to survive and then to thrive! As long as you're okay with the decisions you're making and you feel it's the best thing that's all that matters.
status offlineAndreaIsFree
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and keep up all your exploring because it'll take you places that you never dreamed of. There's a whole new world out there. I did a lot of exploring and learned so many things and now believe so many things that I never thought possible or even considered. It's very liberating! It took me a long time to be able to ask questions and even now I still have a hard time with that occasionally. But it all gets better over time in practice.
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Ray Franz's Judicial Committee
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Ray Franz's Judicial Committee
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Info from this thread here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/experiences/281836/1/I-know-2-of-the-Elders-on-the-Ray-Franz-JC#.U9ACz_ldUS5
When I read COC, I was stunned that the 2 Elders (Theotis French & Rob Dibble) were on Ray Franz Judcial Committee. I have known these men for over 20 years having done RBC and Convention work with them. They are still Elders today which means they were in their early 30's(which is unheard of for a case of this importance to have inexperienced Elders to sit on) on this committee.
Without revealing myself, I have never tried(but have wanted to), ask them about their on having to judge a former GB member.
Then out of the blue, about a year ago, I was mentioning how hard it is trying to get younger ones to volunteer to one of these Elders, and he says"This is nothing compared to to sitting on the committee that had to disfellowship Ray Franz". I said "What could be so hard about that? Cut and Dry right?". He said: "WE WERE DIRECTED BY THE SOCIETY HOW TO DISFELLOWSHIP HIM!".
Then he continued on: "Ray was a nice Brother, well spoken of and he used the scriptures effectively to defend his position. There was nothing in our Sheperding Books that said that if anyone shares a meal with a DF or DA person, they too should be DF". " But the SOCIETY said use 1COR. 5:11, and do not try to explain it to him, he will just try to confuse you like all those who turn against the TRUTH!" I responded:" When you are a company man, you must listen to mama".
"The highs never match the lows......" - Ronan O'Gara (ex Munster rugby and Ireland player. Racing Metro coach)
status offlineApostateProud
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Wow! That's amazing!
status offlinehalf banana
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Indeed this is important information about the workings of the Watchtower org and completely in line with its policy of "do as we say and not do as we do". Arrogant deluded and blind leaders that they are.
Btw, what has happened to your avatar?
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status offlineCacky
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Interesting.
status offlinesolitaire
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I'd love to know how many were 'helped out of the org' by Ray Franz's disgusting treatment at the hands of the gb...........to have personally known Ray, and seen how he and his wife were treated must have been an eye-opener to those he was close to.....
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlineSwingLifeAway
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Hopefully someone I know will be helped by him again soon. Keeping my fingers crossed. ;)
-Dave
“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy.' They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
- John Lennon
status offlineJoe Magarac
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I was DFed in 1976 for apostasy for reasons not connected with the Ray Franz business.
But I must say that reading his books later helped me to understand what happened to me.
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Grab you a plate and cut you a slice!!!
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Grab you a plate and cut you a slice!!!
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My sister had this shared on her FB wall by several JW cousins so she sent to me for laughs. I DIED!!! smiley: rollsmiley: laugh
Photo: This cake was done for delegates attending the International Conventions. It was prepared by a congregation in Texas for the ones that their congregation hosted for the convention.
status offlineYammerHammer
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Covered with frosting and loaded with shit. That's hilarious! Thanks for sharing!
“The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn but to unlearn.” ~ Gloria Steinem
status offlineLocutus
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Dibs on the top left corner of that "Silver Sword" Mmm. Grey Icing. Num.
status offlinesolitaire
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OMG!! I wonder who was the poor recipient of that 'subtle' cake!!! smiley: sick
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status offlineCacky
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OMG!
status offlinePHR
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Post by Jehovah's Kingdom Proclaimers.
Some cong in Texas made it for some international convention, or something. You might have to scroll down a bit to get to the cake post.
Last Edited By: PHR 3 days ago. Edited 1 times.
status offlinePHR
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OMGGGGGG I decided to check out that FB page and I was NOT prepared for this one!!! smiley: rollsmiley: roll
10562988_794097717288170_537369932878799
status offlineCee Cee
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Can't even have a stinkin' cake without making it dogma. NOW let's talk cult indoctrination...
status offline1moxjdub
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[size=150]Isn't that so much nicer than having some stinking cake with candles and saying happy birthday on it?? Worldly people are so misguided. You see
witnesses don't miss out on anything by being "no part of the world". I can't wait to see the Armadeddon cake. I guess it will be a bundt cake so that
the wicked people can be shown falling into the big hole in the middle.LOL!!![/size]
status offlineSwingLifeAway
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'Good grief' is my family friendly response to this.
You're welcome mods. ;)
-Dave
“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy.' They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
- John Lennon
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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I can't wait to see the Armadeddon cake. I guess it will be a bundt cake so that wicked people can be shown falling into the big hole in the middle.LOL!!!
Too funny and yet I think I've known a few militant JWs that would make a cake like that!
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
status offlinesolitaire
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Ewwwww - I clicked on the link that phr provided...........don't think I should have done that smiley: sick
I tried to scroll down as he advised to see if there were any more cakes..........but there were so many posts catching my eye, and making me feel sick, that I had to exit the site rapidly........
That link should carry a health warning smiley: frown
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlinebirdwoman2
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If the facebook link was a little hard to handle, then this one definitely comes with a warning:
http://www.pinterest.com/search/pins/?q=jw.org&rs=ac&len=2
It seems like jw.org has been very busy with their new marketing image.
Rebranding.
“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”
- Susan B. Anthony
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 16 hours ago. Edited 3 times.
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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Bird woman, stuff like that just makes me either crazy or....just get on with living life as HUMANLY possibly as I can. Listening to the world news and the insanity that is going on around the globe in the name of tribalistic patriarchal religions just makes me want to stay very tightly to myself. The stuff on that website.... Ditto. I see that a large part of humanity is in denial. If that kind of thinking is what they deem as right then please.....stay the hell away from me! The calmness of uncertainty suits me just fine. I'm enjoying the journey for the most part...when I'm not thinking about the idiots who are so damn afraid they can't reason out a thing for the life of them! Let an organization spell everything out so that they don't have to exercise a single brain cell.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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Tell me about your first Christmas?
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offlinemytruth
Tell me about your first Christmas?
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Did you have a tree? Did you celebrate with anyone? Gifts? Music? I wanna hear all about it
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My first christmas day I went in a church *eek*
I had only been inactive for about 9 months so I was still 'raw'.............the fella I was with said he and his mum and dad went to church on xmas day (I don't think they went any other day lol!!)
My initial reaction was 'how hard can this be'?? I was still full of anger with the religion, so what better way to stick two fingers up than go into one of those worldly places smiley: tongue
Maybe I wasn't as 'free' as I thought I was.........I spent the entire hour or so waiting to be 'struck down from above' lol!! And then to cap it all off, everyone started wishing me a Happy Christmas smiley: eek
I suddenly found that I just couldn't get the words out!!! I sort of ended up saying 'klump' under my breath, and hoping they wouldn't notice I was acting weird!!!
I did however end up thoroughly enjoying the whole xmas thing, and of course not having to be out in field service, and get all those sympathetic looks from people was a plus.............and getting heaps of pressies is just the best!!!
As a kid it was always a case of 'you can't have it for xmas, but we give gifts out of love, not because we have to'...............yeh!!! That translated as not getting anything!! Now I love every bit of christmas, the pressies, the tree, the carols, no meetings!!................and I am always the loudest when saying 'Merry Christmas' smiley: smile
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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👍👏👏👏🎅🎄🎁👏👏👍
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My first 'real' Christmas came about three or four years after I was out. I had been dating my now hubby Don for almost a year. Christmas Eve he came over to my place with gifts for me. We stacked our presents up in front of the TV (my mobile home was too small for a tree) and hoped my evil cat wouldn't shred them. We ended up going out for sub sandwiches at a little pizza place (it was the only resteraunt open on Christmas Eve and I've never been the best cook.) Funny thing, we ran into an older JW couple while waiting for our orders. The wife started chatting with me and her elder husband whispered something to her, probably telling her she shouldn't talk to me. Here I was, flaunting my 'wordly' bf in public. They rushed out as fast as they could. Don and I had a chuckle about it. The rest of the evening we watched 'Its a Wonderful Life' and listened to Christmas CDs. That was the first time I let Don stay the night. Christmas Day we opened presents (the cat spared them) and just hung out. Don is as much an atheist as I am so religion didn't come into it. We enjoy Christmas carols for the beauty of them. A well done 'Silent Night' and 'Oh Holy Night' get me every time.
status offlineFiguringitout20
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My first Christmas was spent with my hubby and his parents. We all went overboard and gave and received a ton of gifts. I was like excited like a kid! :)
status offlineCacky
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I don't remember for sure my first one, which would have been only three years ago, but I'm sure I went to my daughter's house, where we share Christmas each year with her and the kids and her hubby. I love it. I decorate my house, I need to get more, better decorations, but I have some that I put up. I have a very small tree that I call my Charlie Brown tree. lol I like decorating the outside of my house, too. This past year I didn't get around to taking the decorations down until March! I'm already looking forward to this Christmas!
status offlineFiguringitout20
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I love Christmas! My first few were with my boyfriend (now husband) and I don't remember much of those. We kept it low key with just the two of us and probably a present or two, no decorations. After we got married we had a bigger celebration with his parents and we all went overboard, giving and receiving a ton of presents. I was giddy like a child. These days we go all out with decorations, Xmas tree, lights, etc. and our main joy is seeing how excited our little boy is.
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A facebook post from a smart human
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"Tonight we are discussing how to protect young , newly forming belief system from indoctrination. Myself and my nine year old. I wish people wouldn't discuss matters of faith with him. It can tend to be confusing. Especially when it directly conflicts with my methodology. Yet such is life. I am fortunate to posses the logic and communication skills necessary to turn the labyrinth of human belief systems into something sensible and suitable for consumption by a 9 year old. And hopefully give him the common sense tools to handle himself in the world of fairy tale believers and blind followers. And to make up his own mind with educated confidence. "
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This simple , interesting, perfect facebook post of my aunt coming to a sort of acceptance that her son is gonna learn it all so she might as well give him the skills to never follow blindly and ways dig and do research from all angles.... Started a huge fight in my family. Of corse they automatically assumed it was about them (do they think they're blind followers?! They must know! Haha) and it partly was, even though it was just about religion in general. And now my mother is mad at me because I don't hate her for posting that, and I defended her to my family who tried to start a group chat behind her back!!! Mean mean mean
status offlinesolitaire
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You know the old saying.....'if the cap fits - wear it'
They react so negatively because no matter how hard they try, they know that jw kids are brainwashed..........are groomed to do as the society want them to...
They always used to quote the bible "Train up a child according to the way he should go, and even when he grows old he will not turn aside from it" (from sketchy memory!)......except in their ways of 'training' a child, those words took on a much more sinister meaning!!
But those words show, as all of us here can testify, just how difficult it is to break away from those early years of 'conditioning'....
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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This reminds me a bit of how I was raised. My parents were atheists, but they didn't demand that of me or my sister. They told us what they believed, and we went to the Unitarian Church, which welcomed people of all faiths and people who had no faith. In other words,everyone. They taught about the goodness in life and humanity. That was what our parents tried to teach us.
But children grow up so fast, and by the time I was 18, I was basically on my own when it came to things like that. The raising of me was over. I don't know how or why, but even with my parents' influence, I took a very hard, rocky path spiritually and religiously. Then I became a JW. SHUDDER. When I look back, I can't believe I did that. But I was seeking spiritual knowledge, and they kept coming to my door. I was also at a vulnerable time of life.
Today I am at such a comfortable spot. I am not involved with any religion. I do have a faith and a comfortable, soothing spiritual life that I call my "spiritual mist." It's mine. I share if someone wants to know what I believe and think. I also don't believe that I am likely always right, and I'm always saying to not cast my words in concrete. I never, ever try to convert anyone at all to my way of thinking. And I call it a mist, because a mist can be comfortable and comforting and can be full of unknowns. And that's ok.
I wish my parents had lived long enough to see how I've changed spiritually. I believe both of them would approve. Neither of them cared whether I believed what they did, or anything else. Their take on it was that I should be comfortable wherever I went that way. And I am.
My point is that no matter how good a job each person does raising their kids, the kids will likely go directions they choose as time passes. They may choose your path or not.
Religions would likely see me as a heathen. I've been bawled out by a couple of atheists I know for even having faith in something. I appalled a Christian a few weeks ago by explaining what I think of the OT. No matter what way I'd turn, I betcha that some religions and other orgs might see me as wrong enough to verbally condemn me. Not all. I know a church I'd be welcome in.
Anyway, point is, we can do our best, but the kids grow up and find their own path, whether that is walking in your steps or going off in a different direction.
status offlineKBG
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Janets Dolls wrote:
My point is that no matter how good a job each person does raising their kids, the kids will likely go directions they choose as time passes. They may choose your path or not. ...
Anyway, point is, we can do our best, but the kids grow up and find their own path, whether that is walking in your steps or going off in a different direction.
Janet, I think that is so true, with my 2 steps kids, I thought my step-son would be a conservative and my step daughter a liberal, and that was when they were 8 and 10 years old. Holding true so far, and they are 25 and 27 now.
As for my own daughter, she had very left leaning views and likes when she was young, but, also really likes security. Never knew which way she would eventually go. Sadly she jumped into the Borg Pond, head first.
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What's borg pond
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"Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated"
From Star Trek a collective of cyborg like beings who all think in unison with no individuality---the Borg
Guess you have to be. Bit of a Trekkie to get it ; ) but the JW's fit the description pretty easily
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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I like your aunt! Right from the outset of our first son being born ... both my husband and myself have made it very clear to religious and non-religious family and friends, that the subject of religion and all things god related was totally a no-go zone. It's worked for us with both our boys. There have been a few negative comments from some people we know that kids 'should' be taught religion ....... however we stand firm and I guess no-one has dared go to the next level.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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That was a good post, and, as was stated, your family got all up in arms due to cognitive dissonance, they know they brainwash their kids, but don't want to accept that fact, so they get angry whenever they feel they are being called out for it.
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Questioning everything
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offlinemytruth
Questioning everything
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Jul 18 14 7:22 AM
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problem with being such a skeptical is you start questioning everything! I almost believe in a lot of conspiracy theory's but then I am skeptical of that too lol does anyone find that to be true to them?
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Oh, yes. I'm super skeptical. Also, I don't trust people until I've known them a while. I think the lack of trust is left over from my days as a JW. All through my childhood I was told I couldn't trust anyone who wasn't a JW. Hell, for that matter, we were told we couldn't always trust other JWs.
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Skepticism is a big part of thinking critically. There is healthy skepticism and the unhealthy kind where you start doubting your own existence. Most folks don't go that far... but most folks will believe anything if it is couched in the right words, by the right person or authority figure.
Those of us who have left have sort of been burned once, taken in, bought the company line just because we did not know how to think critically. It's been a hard road and an expensive lesson... for now, it's OK, maybe even healthy to question everything. The pendulum of reason, along with supporting evidence from reputable sources will bring you back... but in the meantime, the hard lesson we have learned will cause us to shy away from committing to any position.
“The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn but to unlearn.” ~ Gloria Steinem
status offlineFiguringitout20
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I definitely question everything! Thus my user name "figuring it out". When I first started realizing that "The Truth" was not really the truth, I was a bit overwhelmed by all of the possibilities of what "the real truth" could be. But then I realized that's just part of life's journey - figuring out one's own truth. Not a truth that applies to all of humanity or something dictated by religion/others, but whatever truth makes most sense at the moment and provides personal fulfillment. I don't believe it's necessary to know all of the answers and I don't think there's any way to know for absolute certainty THE truth behind our existence, etc. I think any and every theory can be questioned. And I'm OK with that! That was a huge shift in thinking for me. Going from absolutes to being completely open. We're no longer brainwashed :)
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When I realized TTATT, it hit me so hard and fast... I was going through something, daring to face my questions for the first time. It happened literally over-night. The realization started at night, it was very big, and so I went to sleep deep in thought about it. When I woke up, I accepted my realization that it was all a fairy tale.
We go from understanding everything to understanding nothing... about our existence, the meaning and reason we are here... to nothing. We have to start all over from scratch... and on top of that, we have to deal with all the fall-out from family and friends. It is traumatic, psychologically, to go from having an intact world view to suddenly knowing nothing. I don't think all people who leave have such a sudden realization... it takes place over months or years. It did not happen that way for me... although I was well primed for the pumps of realization.
I vowed to myself I would only accept what I could prove to be true... which isn't much. Proofs rarely exist outside of mathematics. But whatever the real "truth" is about our existence, about anything really, it doesn't care whether it's "true for us" or not. The truth is the truth regardless of whether we accept it, deny it, argue for or against it. I have always had a hard time with the expression "my truth" or "your truth" ... truth is not something that belongs to us... it just IS. To say "that is their truth, but it's not my truth" does not speak to what is really true, it speaks to what one "accepts" or "believes" based on faith, a hunch, an opinion. Truth is an idea, certainly there exists the truth about whether a personal God exists or not. We simply cannot know for sure, we leave that to the realms of faith, and personal taste.
I am in a place now where I will only accept the hard science and evidence based on facts... is there something beyond this life? There is no solid evidence. Were we "created" by an intelligent being? There is no solid evidence. I will only allow for the possibility... but beyond that, I cannot see why I should pursue making a decision about it when there is nothing to base it on.
I am skeptical about anything or anyone who would try to convince me otherwise.
“The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn but to unlearn.” ~ Gloria Steinem
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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I also had that 'aha' moment and there was no going back. Sometimes I wish it had been more gradual and I could put my finger on specific issues but that's not how it was. All the same, I was totally at peace with not knowing the answers to the supposed big questions. I realized that this was not something someone else had to teach me. It was a personal thing and I would find out on my own. I have entertained a few 'conspiracy theories' but they always fall flat with me when I detect any hint of cult like following and I must say...those conspiracy theories and their adherents do possess the cult like tendencies at times. Still...I 'm also very open to alternative views because from what I've seen of history, alternative views have often become accepted fact after time.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
status offlineFiguringitout20
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@yammer hammer, I totally get your point about "my own truth". It actually felt a bit weird describing it that way. In a lot of cases there has to be one truth even if we have no absolute way to know what that truth is. Maybe someone has pieces of whatever is true, but I don't think anyone has all of it. I don't mean one's own truth as in they are factually correct. I, you, they could in fact be totally wrong. I guess I mean it more in the sense of being true to yourself. Whatever feels right to you and brings most satisfaction/fulfillment in life without worrying about the total truth about everything. Does that make sense? Maybe not. Anyway I like all the thoughts above.
Last Edited By: Figuringitout20 Jul 19 14 10:59 PM. Edited 1 times.
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See my truth , my name.... Means something different to me..... I disagree with you about that. Yes fact is fact but who is giving you these facts? Every book you read is written by someone else, every news Article is filtered for the public, every person telling you something was told by someone else, unless you actually do something yourself how can you belive anythjng? You still have to " make truth your own" by deciding what to believe . My belief system so far has very little to do with the bible or god at all, more like life lessons that changed me that I would like to live by. Things like valuing your relationships, living this life fully, taking risks and opening new doors, and never settling for a certain truth, always change and be moldable.... That's my belief system that's my new truth
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Figuringitout, you said: "I guess I mean it more in the sense of being true to yourself. Whatever feels right to you and brings most satisfaction/fulfillment in life without worrying about the total truth about everything."
Yes, absolutely! When I had decided I could no longer believe, the thought came to me about the "first sin of Adam and Eve." Supposedly, their sin was deciding for THEMSELVES what was right and wrong. Is this what I was doing by vacating the beliefs I had? This is another trap the Borg sets for people, another means by which they maintain control and obedience. We are to always accept what is "right and wrong" from Jehovah. As Mytruth points out, we must consider the source... who is telling us what God says is right and wrong? The Borg has flip-flopped so many times, retracted their utterances of "truth" ... how can we put any trust in their words?
And in the end, when we say we do not decide for ourselves what is right or wrong--we leave that for someone else (we thought it was Jehovah), isn't that ALSO deciding for ourselves? We cannot help but make a decision one way or the other... and deciding not to decide is still a decision. Shakespeare wrote "This above all: to thine own self be true... Thou canst not be false to any man." ... and I could no longer be true to myself by staying and playing like it was "the truth." Doing so would make me false to all others... I would have to lie to them all, if not in word, then by my actions.
Maybe it's a matter of semantics, the word truth can mean many things in different contexts. In a purely philosophical sense, truth means what is real, the state of reality whether we accept it or not, whether we can even perceive the reality. Our human senses along with our brains are so easily capable of coming to the wrong conclusions... and science has demonstrated this over and over again. It was not that long ago that the world's leading scientists believed the Earth was the center of the Universe... what other explanation could there be when we observe the Sun, Moon and stars rotating over our heads, consistently, without exception?
To Mytruth, fact is fact regardless of who is giving you these facts. If what others give you is not true, then it cannot be fact. But I definitely agree with you: "unless you actually do something yourself how can you believe anything?" It does take action on our part to investigate, as impartially as we can, understanding that we are all partial, we are all biased with respect to ourselves, whatever group we belong to or associate with and this is the real challenge, philosophically. We see and perceive the "realities" around us through Coke bottle glasses. Indeed, most of the efforts of science involve searching for reality by means of tools that go far beyond what we can perceive using just our five senses and filtering it through our brain which is highly suggestible and so easily fooled. It's a fact that objects do not posses the property of color... they only reflect a certain wavelength of a very broad light spectrum, the majority of which we cannot "see" with our human eyes. For me personally, I try not to make decisions about what is "real," what is "factual," without understanding, as best as I can, what science tells us about that reality.
Some things do not belong in the realm of truth... for example, what is beautiful about a certain piece of art. We never say, "this is the most beautiful painting that has ever been painted." Such things belong in the realm of opinion, hopefully, an educated opinion. A child's drawing may not ever be displayed in a museum, but to the parent of the "artist" it may seem like the most beautiful work of art in history. Again, bias comes into play when making these kinds of decisions... and many of the things people believe belong to the realm of opinion and acquired taste... both of which are highly influenced by bias and environment.
I guess my point is we are all free to make these decisions... but it never hurts to put these things in perspective... to put these decisions in the proper realm of thought... as the late Mortimer Adler described these realms of thought in "Six Great Ideas: Truth, Goodness, Beauty, Liberty, Equality and Justice."
“The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn but to unlearn.” ~ Gloria Steinem
Last Edited By: YammerHammer Jul 20 14 7:12 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Mytruth ... I used to question everything when I was younger then the skepticism set in for one thing or another, and even though I continued to question ... I dropped the worrying, paranoia bit. Took me a while though. As David (Yammer) pointed out ... there is healthy and unhealthy skepticism. I prefer the healthy.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineCacky
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I tend to be easily swayed. I'll watch youtube videos about aliens or bigfoot or conspiracy theories and get caught up in them. I just have to remind myself to be careful and not believe everything I read or see on youtube. Some of us are just more like that than others. But knowing you're like that helps yourself to keep a check on it.
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Yes Mytruth, perhaps there is one "truth" and it is this: there is no one truth. unlike JWs; question everything, skepticism is necessary for mental health. Without skepticism we could be persueded to belive almost anything. Make assessments on the basis of evidence not hope or spin or hearsay or holy books. I agree with you our perception of what is true changes and of course most especially as we retreat from the dire fixations of the old religion.
One of the big problems for those who know TTATT is that our whole frame of reference has gone and as you said Yammer we almost have to start from scratch. For example we had drummed into us such stupid thinking such as “true religion” and every last thing put into a relationship with Watchtower values. Even the very notion of ”truth,” as we are discussing, can be misleading because a thing was only true if it was approved by the GB. Arrrrrrgh!
In fact I think it's a mistake and a hangover of JW thinking to imagine there is some mystical “truth” lurking out there which we should find. A better comparison would be that of ‘consciousness’... the way we become conscious by understanding an increasingly large array of aspects of reality... there is no special “truth”, though cult leaders will prefer to differ!
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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All the same, I was totally at peace with not knowing the answers to the supposed big questions
Ditto Sharon!! For me being able to admit that I don't know the answers to many of lifes big questions, is a relief!! In my jw days, the only reason I was given for not knowing things, was because I wasn't studying hard enough smiley: ohwell
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlineJanets Dolls
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It's not that I'm a skeptic about spiritual things. It's that I don't have any answers, and I know I have no answers. But I have a lot of thoughts I love to toy with. I no longer feel the need for answers.
Janet
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New Facebook Group "Down with the Watchtower Society"
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offlinesudsybubble
New Facebook Group "Down with the Watchtower Society"
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Jul 15 14 12:30 PM
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Hi everyone! I recently started a new group called "Down with the Watchtower Society" where we brainstorm ways to let the public know about: the JW pedophile cover-ups, the lies on shunning, work on ways to get them stripped of their charity status, etc., etc.
I don't want to re-invent the wheel. We have about 90 members right now, but the more the merrier and I believe there may be other groups out there doing the same thing. Do you know of any so that we could all work together and pool our efforts for one united cause?
Many thanks for your help!
Susan
status offlinemytruth
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That's a good idea, I just deleted my facebook but I hope to hear updates on how it's going :)
status offlineJanets Dolls
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sudsybubble, I copied and pasted the title into the FB search and couldn't find it. Are you sure that is the exact title of the group?
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It's a closed and secret group. If you want to join, I need to befriend you, temporarily in Facebook and then add you. Are you interested?
status offlineJanets Dolls
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Sure, I'd love to see it! my name on FB is Janet Carol DeForest Fish. Sorry it's so long. LOL :D Thanks!
status offlinepalmel1234
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Hey, Sudsybubble,
There's this group that you may want to consider joining forces with. Freedom From Religion
They don't target any one religion specifically, but I think they have some of the same goals as you.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/179443/working_mom.html
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Thanks palmel1234. I'll check it out.
Janet Dolls I just sent you a fried request in Facebook. Susan Gaskin Fusco is the name. Looking forward to seeing you.
status offlineJanets Dolls
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Thanks! Yes, I got it and clicked ok at the group. Thanks so much. That looks like it is going to be a motivating group, seems strong. That's the feeling I got as I was scrolling down. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.
Janet
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Downsized Bethelites
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offlinesg75
Downsized Bethelites
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Jul 21 14 7:46 AM
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Does anyone know what happened to the Bethelites who were downsized a few years ago? Just curious. I doubt there's much demand for printing press operators in the modern world. So where did they go? Its extremely unlikely the Society did anything to help them. Used them up and spit them out is more like it. Here in the US you can't get unemployment compensation for volunteer work. Not even if that volunteer work was your sole livelihood for years. That's pretty heartless when you think about it. The loving GB tosses people to the curb like garbage while the Catholic Church at least has retirement homes where elderly religious can live out their last years.
Not all who wander are lost.- J.R.R. Tolkein
status offlineJanets Dolls
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Wait, you just asked, but then decided. I know it seems likely that happened that way, but let's not roast them verbally until we know what actually happened. To be effective in a campaign against something it works better to have the facts rather than make assumptions that could be wrong. You don't know and neither do I. Maybe someone here can fill us in. But please, for the sake of clarity and the sake of doing things right, let's not write our own stories that may or may not be true.
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status offlineCee Cee
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My mom kept in contact with a someone who actually was cashiered from Brooklyn Bethel where he had labored all his adult life. According to mom, he was given an appointment as Special Pioneers (SP'ing is a paid position and, in his case, came with a used vehicle.)
The Watchtower is a self insurer so I suspect that for the long-term Bethelites this policy continues. The press operators, launderers, kitchen help, and other lower ranking workers seldom stayed long enough at Bethel to get these 'retirement' benefits. The only young and handicapped person at Bethel that I ever met had been a Watchtower Farm worker who's leg was mangled while working on a tractor there and another older man with obvious brain damage caused by over use of DDT in their gardens. In both cases the WT kept these men on in 'light duty' jobs.
Oh, When Bethel was operating full tilt it was not unusual for well-respected workers who married a pioneer to be given Circuit Servant positions so it doesn't take any stretch of the imagination to see this continued.
Grandma Cee Cee
status offlinesg75
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I must admit, that's pretty generous. Let's see if this posts. My Internet has been out for the last couple days and it still cuts in and out without warning. Very annoying.
status offlineCacky
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I don't have any idea what happens to those let go from Bethel. Didn't they get made to have to pay for social security in Spain for old members?
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Calling on inactive ones?
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offlineCacky
Calling on inactive ones?
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May 14 14 2:26 PM
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I was just reading on another board that someone had their circuit overseer and they held a special meeting for elders and ministerial servants and was wondering what it was about, and someone answered that at the special meeting, they were told to call on ALL inactive ones during the week of the co's visit and report back on the results. I guess that means my husband will get called on. I doubt it though, since we moved, I don't know who has his publisher's card, I think the original cong has it, so I don't know if they'd call on him. It will be interesting if they do.
status offlineFiguringitout20
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I was told the same thing and that it's the hall where my publisher card is held that will make the call. Why do they even need to keep a publisher card. Shouldn't it be archived/trashed after a few years. No thank you. I'm not meeting with them.
status offlineYammerHammer
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...they were told to call on ALL inactive ones
Poor sumbitches. I bet the elders and MS's are just THRILLED about it. CO directives... one of the biggest reasons I'm glad to be out.
“The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn but to unlearn.” ~ Gloria Steinem
status offlineBilly Sugger
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They won't find me.
*hides behind sofa*
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
status offlinesolitaire
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May 15 14 4:33 AM
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I would think I'm safe...........after over 30 years out I will be considered 'comatose' rather than 'inactive' smiley: laugh
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlinepunkofnice
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They'll only make an effort to please the CO. When he's gone they'll get on with the usual rubbish.
They'll be selective about who they call on I would imagine.
The bottom line is that the WBT$ is worried about money. They will want to get more paying victims back in their clutches.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
status offlineCacky
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That's what I figured. They want to get more back so they can get more donations. I don't think the door to door, in the developed countries, is working anymore.
status offlineMystla
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I'm not worried. Should they know where I am, and they decide to call.. I am VERY good at making excuses. I'm sure one of my children will have just vomited or had an accident or some other emergency that requires my immediate attention. Or I can use my sick husband as an excuse. Or any of a hundred other easy to use reasons as to why "I don't have time right this minute, maybe another time..."
They won't pin down this sister, that's for certain. smiley: wink
"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago; the second best time is now"
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status offlineeewx2
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Glad I DA'd they avoid me like the plague. LOL
status offlineinspecterD
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I always check to see if I know who is at my door. I don't answer if I don't know them and sometimes if I do. LOL Anyway, I doubt that they will come a knocking at my door.
status offlineGoingForth
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When I and family left I went to the cong. o (just a couple of doors down) and asked for our publishers cards. He was reluctant at first to give them to me, but I knew that they can not refuse, we can ask to see them any time. He tried to make excuses like he would send them to the next congregation if we moved. But I insisted, so he gave them to me. Back at home I torn them up with a great deal of relish.
They haven't called in ages--I actually enjoy talking to them when they do call. But after so many years now the ones we knew are probably not in the same hall any more, or dead, or who knows what, and the younger ones would not know us. And with no pub-cards they would not know about us at all. I can't even recall the last time I met anyone by coincidence. I often wonder about the ones we knew, how they are doing etc. but have absolutely no connection to anyone that would know.
“The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen nor even touched—
They must be felt with the heart.”
Helen Keller
status offlineBilly Sugger
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May 17 14 11:32 PM
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3 days behind the big brother sofa and Brother Billy is still there. He's wondering if they've been yet, he did hear a knock at the door, but thinks that may have been the postman. He is feeding on old crisps and sweets found in the dust under the sofa, but has found 50p, which made his day........
The wait continues.......
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
status offlineYammerHammer
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May 18 14 7:43 AM
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smiley: rollsmiley: rollsmiley: rollsmiley: rollsmiley: roll
Keep yer head down brother Billy! The CO will be gone soon and the Elders will be back to their old apathetic selves!
“The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn but to unlearn.” ~ Gloria Steinem
status offlinebirdwoman2
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I am waiting.
smiley: smile
I would love to have JWs call me at home.
Please do.
I have an open door for them.
I can't wait for them to see my paintings.
I have been very busy since I last stepped into a Kingdom Hall.
smiley: smile
I am sure we could finds lots to talk about.
“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”
- Susan B. Anthony
status offlineJanets Dolls
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LOL Birdwoman, that gave me a chuckle. It was almost exactly what I was thinking about yesterday. Wouldn't it be fun to invite the JWs at the door inside to see my odd life? Oh, now i'm all excited. I doubt they'll be by, but think I'll straighten up the living room, just in case. They'll love our official "greeter" who is a life size skeleton wearing a vintage dress standing near the door next to a spiral staircase with her hands on a walker. LOL Then they'll come into this part of the room and see a few other things. It'd be great fun. Not to mention the religious symbols sitting around from two or three faith paths.
Of course I might have to move after that. Small towns, gossip, all that good stuff. LOL
Janet
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Of course I might have to move after that. Small towns, gossip, all that good stuff. LOL
think I'll straighten up the living room, just in case
smiley: laugh
I love small towns.
They can be fun if you know what they are about.
Lol! Even the crazy ones here call me crazy!
I had a couple women JWS call on me last year. The one woman's face turned white and started stammering when I opened my door. Lol! I had just been thinking at the time they rang my doorbell that I needed some new material to work with and voila! there they were with magazines in hand. I managed to have a bit of a chat with them at the door but they were very nervous - they recognized me but I had no clue who they were - they knew right away that I was 'Jan's sister'...on the 'do not call' list. Oops!
I tried to get the ladies who came by with memorial invitations to stop for tea but they were in a hurry - lots of doors to knock.
Maybe they have me on a backcall...I was very nice to them. They liked me. smiley: smile But...they might have seen the big ass pentacle I have hanging in my entrance-way...beside the Virgin Mary icon collection I have...and the Native American images and such...hey! maybe I could do a smudge with them and we could share praying together before we have tea and cookies. *note to self - make sure to have a batch of those 'green cookies' on hand at all times
Heehee - I want to show them the Blood Demon that I have hanging in my living room - with all my paintings about Jesus and blood and all that good stuff....and the photo I have of my son hanging beside the JW Jesus. Lol! That should freak them out - my son is a dead ringer for the dude on the stake. Heehee...
A girl has to find entertainment somehow...I live a quiet life and I would love to have tea and chat...
smiley: tongue
“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”
- Susan B. Anthony
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 May 18 14 8:47 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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The 'note to self'....had me laughing out loud. A couple of stoned 'sisters' just might be enough entertainment to last quite awhile! I get the same frightened look from JWs in my area too. What ever did I do to scare them so except get on with my life?
If any elders call on me my dog usually responds to callers I haven't invited with lots of barking and a pretty good growl. HE's a great watch dog!
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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status offlineMarked for life
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That's the only thing I like about when they call. Their eyes get huge when they they see my collection of Tattoos! That always makes me smile as I stroke my Beard thoughtfully before telling them to piss off!
status offlineBilly Sugger
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Day 4 behind the sofa.
Billy has ran out of stale biscuits and is sure the dust is turning into mini pioneers. However, another 20p has been found which has lifted his spirits.
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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May 19 14 11:58 PM
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BillyAndyAndyBilly ... you need to have a 'care package' sent to you from Dianne! The 'green' cookies would keep you going for a while ... although finding more cash would be pushing it a little!
The old borg does tend to go into overdrive when a posh bloke aka CO turns up don't they! Out comes the best dresses and neatly pressed suits ... hairs are cut (or shaved) ... the posh would-be's-if-they-could-be's dust off their poshest fake accent and try to get dibs on whose having the posh bloke and his missus for dinner/lunch. Then the poor old inactive ones are targeted. It's a bums-on-seats thing I guess. I'm like Sam ... I'd be classified as 'comatose' not just 'inactive'!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineBilly Sugger
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May 22 14 3:10 PM
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Mmmmmm Green cookies........
I'd come out from behind the sofa for those.
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
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Calling on inactive ones?
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status offlinebirdwoman2
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May 22 14 4:10 PM
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Hi Billy. smiley: smile
I make my green cookies using a shortbread recipe and I add lots of mint flavoring.
Yes, I am sure a couple of these cookies would entice you out from behind that sofa.
And, after having them with a cuppa nice hot tea...you would be stretched out on that sofa with a big, peaceful smile on your face.
Aaaahhhh.....no worries.
smiley: tired
status offlineBilly Sugger
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May 24 14 3:29 PM
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Loving it already.......the sofa is a dim and distant memory....one that I'd rather forget...it was hell behind there. Every knock at the door I presumed was the CO coming to entice me back into the fold...where really it was the postie with my new Deep Purple LP that wouldn't fit through the letter box.
I'm alive!!!!!
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
status offlinechas
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I havent been on the forum for a while and just caught up with this thread. It certainly explains the message left on our machine a month or so back. A brother called inviting our two sons back to the KH for the CO visit and to see the new rennovations. This after the four of us quit six years ago ! I guess since they were never dunked they qualify for this special invite. Me and their Mom who DA'd and told them to never call again are still persona non grata. We all had a big laugh. At least now i know the story behind the action. Just following orders as usual. No real concern on a personal level.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Chas ... at least you saw the funny side of it.
I'm in the non-dunked classification too but the locals tend to steer clear of me. Perhaps it's due to my rather vocal anti-jdub sentiments!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineconfusedcanuck
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Jun 6 14 10:20 AM
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Ughh... they are calling here constantly recently! Nothing for two years, then all the sudden they called three times before the memorial (leaving an invitation every time) and twice in the last three days with the convention invitation. I'm really tempted next time they call to tell them where to go (as we are just faded) but we will be moving soon anyways. Just getting really annoyed. But I do wonder if they have been told to try to get "inactive" ones back. They must be desperate for $$$!! hahaha
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Jun 6 14 10:54 PM
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It's the dollars and the bums on seats Canuck! Whack a handy cross on the front door ... or a pentagram. They'll stay away then!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineLeyDelMonte
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Yep, they've been trying to call me today. Not answering and definitely not meeting with them.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Good for you Ley ....... just because someone knocks on your door or phones you, doesn't mean you have to answer and give them the time of day!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinemytruth
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i am having the same problem right now. my CO has just come into town, and i was worried the elders would try to approach me. i have already got a text asking 'how i'm doing' from a concerned elder... i really hope they dont bug me so much i'll have to tell them straight forward i do not wish to speak with them. and i find that very awkward
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ley tell them you are not interested and to please stop coming to your home, or they will keep coming back... trust me.
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from a concerned elder
Unfortunately, as we know only too well Mytruth......their concern is totally to do with keeping your attendance up at meetings rather than any genuine concern with you as an individual, and what is going on in your life!!
They 'care' just as long as we toe the line.....attend all the meetings, don't ask any questions, don't think for yourself, and whatever you do don't have any personal problems to offload on them.......after all, problems are only a sign of your spiritual 'weakness'........pray hard enough and go out in service enough and VOILA.......your problems will disappear smiley: sick
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It's all about bums on seats ....... they stop chasing the ones who are more forthright Mytruth ..........................
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Thanks Andria & mytruth. Luckily my dad is an elder. I know what you might think, luckily??? But he's actually been very good at telling them straight up that I'm not interested in anything to do with the organization right now.
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It's great that your dad is in dad mode and not elder mode Ley .................... he is looking out for you and that's great.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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shunning being talked about on a show!
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offlineStormyGirl
shunning being talked about on a show!
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I'm watching a new show called "Leah Remini: it's all relative" and so far they have discussed being shunned and the pain of such over three times! (Leah Remini is an ex scientologist)
I think this is great! The more people healing from any religion that practices such abusive dogma that comes forward and shows their scars the better! <3
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I admire Remini for being outspoken about Scientology's abuses. Scientologists are some very rich, very influential people and it takes courage to stand up to them.
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Yeah, sg75, I've read horror stories about some people who chose to leave Scientology. I was surprised at how open and honest she was about it. She didn't sugarcoat anything yet talked about it with dignity and grace, in my opinion.
What got me misty eyed was how they spoke of the struggles to move on and adjust, and the deep pain of losing lifelong relationships. I may have only been 17 when I lost all my friends and community (as witness life is all we were allowed to foster relationships in) but I still feel the ripples of pain to this day! There are a certain few I wish I could hug again and catch up on life with. <3
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Yes, I watch a woman on youtube who fairly regularly talks about her many years as a scientologist. She's an activist. She'll even go down to where they have set up to talk to passersby and she'll interrupt and tell the interested person what life as a scientologist is like. She is videotaping while doing that. It is SO interesting.
The cult phenomenon is so interesting. It is heart breaking when we are one of the shunned. However, that is ThEIR doing, not ours. When I left, I did NOT cut off my friends, they cut me off. Their bad, not mine. I can still miss one especially. But never again.......
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Leaving any cult be it a religious cult or semi-scientifice-aka-religious cult is not easy. I don't miss people from my past but I used to. I guess with time and with distance ... as in they've kept their distance from me ... we slowly but surely move onwards and upwards Trish.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Sorry I missed it.
Personally, I think there can't be much difference in the effects of shunning, ignoring and being gossiped about no matter who does it. I got to rehearse my survival skills for being ostracized by the only friends I was allowed to have from being the only kid in school who wasn't allowed to salute the flag, attend birthday parties, sing in the choir, or do anything with classmates after school. [That STILL angers me even after all these years.] Did you notice that the very thing we complain about their doing to us, we do/did to the worldly ones around us?
Have you ever thought of this: We, as JWs, shunned the world, treating them, and the things they liked to do like dirt.
Grandma Cee Cee
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Cee cee, Being different never upset me, I kinda liked it haha but anyways ..............nothing hurts like someone you love, who loves you back, standing in front of you but not making eye contact or speaking a word. Silly really
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God's Form
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offlineFiguringitout20
God's Form
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Growing up the most passionate debates in field service with householders (the rare ones who would debate vs. just say "not interested") revolved around the Trinity. Many hours were spent trying to convince people the Trinity was false and bible words were diced up from various bible translation to try to prove it.
But really why does it matter? IF there is a God, how could we possibly understand exactly what form this being is in and his/hers/its capabilities. So what if God is a 3-headed beast with the capability of splitting off part of himself to send to earth. I'm not saying this happened, but in the big scheme of things it seems silly now to have to determine for a certainty whether or not God, if he exists, is part of a Trinity. I don't know, you don't know, and I don't see the point in needing to understand/know God's form.
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That makes sense. Also, what in the world does it matter if Jesus was crucified on a cross or a stake. Who cares!!
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So, true! They need to learn about not making mountains out of molehills!
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Figgy, something I’ve come to realise is that practically the whole of the Bible is re-cycled material. Hardly any of it is original; it is entirely the product of the fallible human imagination. Much of it comes from pagan folktales which were country stories as believed by the uneducated rustics (as opposed to the understanding of town dwellers who thought themselves to be more sophisticated). Ultimately, Bible texts originate with folk tales elaborated around the movements of the sun moon stars.
Most people will imagine that the Bible stories are based on a kernel of truth and then fleshed out but surprisingly this is not the norm. What has happened is that the pagan, astrological themes are very persistent and universal and instead of actual events and people becoming legends the events and people are formulated myth but dressed up and written about as if they were historical. The Bible writers, copying earlier texts, have made myth into a plausible history. The writings have historicised the myth and not created a myth out of histories. This is a very important distinction to make in understanding what the Bible is.
The trinity existed from the remote past and Christianity adopted it because the Roman Church absorbed as many of the pagan “truths” as possible to make their state church palatable to a majority. OK JWs have dropped the trinity in an unsuccessful stab at religious purity but struggle to maintain the distinction between Jesus and YHVH; this too is because Jehovah and Jesus are both modeled on the pagan template of the Solar Gods whose sons also were also Solar Gods.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
Last Edited By: half banana 6 days ago. Edited 2 times.
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Additional thought ...so God’s form for me is no more or less important than the correct way to draw Homer Simpson or Mickey Mouse. God is a human construct and can be shaped in whatever way the collective imagination of a religion sees fit to portray. Fact has nothing to do with it.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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Most of the jws doctrine against the trinity isn't actually a argument against it anyway! They argue a different subject in "modalism"... I think that's what it's called.
The jw's can't argue against the trinity well enough, so they change the goalposts and argue against something else but dress it up as the trinity.
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It's one of those stupid doctrines they argue with.
Also like it was mentioned they don't even understand what the trinity is, and argue against a theological concept that was rejected by the early church.
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It's funny some of the reasoning they give about why the flood of the bible is true is because people in every country have a version of it. Well, just because everyone has a version of a story doesn't mean it came from a true source. A rumor/ story gets told and passed on and soon someone far away thinks it's true.
Half Banana, you're right about pagan sources. Would love to slip JWs info on that!
I don't really remember the history of the Trinity belief though and am not familiar with how they aren't really arguing against it...
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I believe in God, but make no pretense about knowing what form God takes. I don't think it matters in the salvation thing anyway. If I told a JW what I believe and that I don't hold my beliefs out to anyone as truth, they'd likely get that look in their eyes and start babbling things that would no longer fit exactly into the conversation.
If you ask them too closely and corner them, they will use some kind of convoluted reasoning. I remember once my daughter had a question when she was in elementary school. She asked a friend of ours from the hall. That friend told and elder that my daughter had asked that question. The elder talked to my daughter the next meeting and told her to simply believe what the society told her to believe and all would be fine. I did not know about that until a few years later. I wish I had known. Might have gotten me out of there faster. Or maybe I was close to leaving anyway.
I don't know what the question was, my daughter didn't remember. But she did remember how she was talked to and how she was sort of dismissed with a kind of warning. You know the ol' do not lean on your own understanding. Bunch of crap, frankly.
I have never invited a JW into my home since I've lived in this house. It would scare them and they'd have to exorcise the demons later. LOL JUST KIDDING. My home is peaceful for my husband and myself. But for people with superstitions or fears, they might not be comfortable. I have a lot of art on the walls, some I did, some other people did. I have a lamp made of an old mannequin. I have a couple of crosses on the wall, one I made, the other is antique. I have Buddhist things here and there. I have dolls I've made that have glass eyes, including a life size one. I have a life size skeleton wearing a dress and carrying a purse in the living room. (I bought the skeleton to use for measurements for life sized dolls. I have yet to use her that way. She makes a great halloween thing though.)
I guess I'd get in trouble if I took the skeleton over to the kingdom hall and sat her in a seat
and took her picture. I mean, I'd be trespassing, huh?
Janet
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How did a cow-headed wooden idol in the land of Canaan land the job as top deity?
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offlinehalf banana
How did a cow-headed wooden idol in the land of Canaan land the job as top deity?
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How did a cow-headed wooden idol in the land of Canaan land the job as top deity?
This is a question I’ve been asking myself and intend to answer more fully when I’ve done more research. In the meantime here is a simplified outline of what I think I will be reading.
The Canaanite Jews were polytheistic worshippers of the great god El who had a wifely consort called Ashera and a host of lesser deities all serving their various functions. One of the sons of El, called Yahweh, became identified with the Israelites in Canaan as their tribal deity, being one of the seventy nations assigned a lesser god. Since Yahweh later became associated with Ashera she was adopted as Yahweh’s consort for good measure. (This was a bit incestuous but Gods tend to be like that.)
Gods were deemed to be as powerful as their nations, the Jews were politically weak consequently the status of Yahweh their national champion, had dropped out of the top league. This was especially galling in comparison to their neighbours Babylon and Egypt who by this analysis must have had very powerful gods.
So what does a little nation do when down on its luck? It rationalises its situation and concludes that Yahweh is punishing them for their allegiance to other gods. Yahweh happens to have exaggerated human traits such as jealousy and he just cannot abide other gods. So go for religious purity; out goes Ashera and for a big dose of feel good factor, copy an Egyptian idea and make Yahweh invisible (no one will notice!) and make him a supreme deity. Why not? Who could deny it?
So this would explain the move from polytheism and the change to the promotion of Yahweh as the only deity and also the dropping his female consort. It seems to have been a move to get out of the fix of being a powerless nation and therefore having a powerless god. They assumed they must have been in a state of punishment to be so lowly. The idea of subsuming the power of all the gods (especially Zeus and co) to the realms and control of their own puny Yahweh must have given them a lift. Since the old Yahweh (Jehovah) actually did perform as badly as his cow-headed idol looked, it must have been a clever move to say that he was now invisible.
Strangely although the Bible would have us believe that polytheism amongst the Jews was an early practice and long discarded,archaeology and textual criticism nowadays tends toward demonstrating that it died out, if it did at all, as late as around the first century BCE.
Any scholars out there who might have interesting leads on the subject?
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
Last Edited By: half banana Jun 10 14 12:35 PM. Edited 3 times.
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That's interesting, where did you get that from?
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Mat, I have picked up bits of information over time from reading related material and I’m reading through several volumes on Canaanite archaeology and texts at the moment.
In an attempt to make a point, I dramatised it by contrasting two aspects of Yahweh; how he began and the supreme deity concept. Gods come and go and always tend to change over time and the earliest mention of Yahweh doesn’t necessarily represent his even earlier incarnations. The Canaanite Jehovah had a pedigree going back to the earliest days of agricultural gods based on the stars, Sun and Moon and was likely influenced by Phoenicians. The God who later became Jehovah seems to have been a Moon God. Most societies around the world had female lunar deities since there was an obvious correspondence in a woman’s monthly cycle but it was in Egypt and the Levant where male Moon gods were to be found. It would be reasonable to construe that Jehovah morphed from a cow headed idol since early depictions were of him with cow horns and this was evidently a symbol representing a moon god. Think of the rage of the newly promoted invisible god when the Sons of Israel created a golden calf; it was a theatrical sermon on giving up worshipping in the old way, from the old bovine Jehovah (of polytheism) to the new supercharged Zeus-like version. A lot of early Biblical texts are driven by this radical shift of position yet still without embarrassment refer to other gods in their pantheon such as Chemosh (Kemosh) Judges 11:24.
One classical source of information is from the Greek writer Hesiod, 8th to 7th cent BCE, whose Theogony (origin of the gods) gives a good insight into the astronomical and astrological basis for belief in heavenly deities. A good modern scholar to read is Karen Armstrong with her book The History of God. I have yet to start on the heavier volumes but will do so shortly. Thomas L Thomson is always to be recommended for informed and objective textual scholarship in Biblical studies.
Do not bother with those individuals who are still entangled with faith agendas; they don’t cut the mustard!
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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I would like to find more info on archeological findings relating to the Tetragrammaton god and when or if it was still considered THE god by the first century.
I've heard that by the first century the name, yhwh, was NOT being used and that in fact, if there was a Jesus figure, he would not have used it to refer to god. In fact, all I've read of Jesus' references to god were to name him as 'father'.
Do you have any good academic sites that might address this HB? Personally, I think the research into sites like Gobekli Tepi might yield more insights into the ancient roots of creation and flood mythologies (and possibly gods like Yahweh). I am fascinated with places like that! They date back to the end of last ice age.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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Whytebyrd, I think you make an important point about how the Tetragrammaton was perceived in the first century, I don’t as yet know the answer.
What I have come to realise is that at that time, the Romans were aware of many Christ cults and their followers were appropriately called Christians. They had nothing to do with a Jewish Jesus; he was to be inserted into the role perhaps as late as the middle of the second century. (Paul wrote his version and it is likely that the name “Jesus” was interpolated i.e inserted into a manuscript copy.) These cultists were all aware of the tradition of the Christ figure who in different cultures were known by different names such as Horus in Egypt (who raised his friend Lazarus and walked on water etc) for the Greeks there were Dionysus and Orpheus, to the Phrygians there was Attis...the list goes on but common to all was their being born of a virgin in a cave, with animals present, in midwinter, sons of solar gods, worked miracles, had twelve disciples and crucified at Easter.
I’m trying to contextualise the relevance of YHVH to this story and in the texts from the other pagan sources the position of the Solar God father is somewhat taken for granted. But one key feature of Paul’s Christianity was the grafting of Judaic monotheism into the Christ story and hence for the early “Jesus” Christians, as opposed to the polytheistic Dionysian or Orphic Christ-cults, one might assume they would have inherited contemporary Jewish perceptions about YHVH.
The question remains; what was that perception?
A good taster of early Roman Christianity from the first century; which does not mention Jesus, is the Shepherd of Hermes. This is available online and makes interesting comparisons with the later Roman Church. This text was circulated for two centuries and possibly was the most popular and widespread early Christian text. There are many familiar references to the Father and the Almighty etc.
“Any academic sites” to answer this? Scholars of the texts favour referring to other scholarly works from the printed page. Most of these publications are with limited distribution and hence make for expensive copies, sometimes cheaper second hand. I’m reading one such at the moment, by Thomas L Thompson: Early history of the Israelite People From the Written and Archaeological Sources.
However I’ll look out for further first century perceptions of God. Let us know would you, if you find anything?
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
Last Edited By: half banana Jun 16 14 10:48 PM. Edited 1 times.
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half banana wrote:
How did a cow-headed wooden idol in the land of Canaan land
the job as top deity?
This is a question I’ve been asking myself and intend to
answer more fully when I’ve done more research. In the meantime here is a
simplified outline of what I think I will be reading.
The Canaanite Jews were polytheistic worshippers of the
great god El who had a wifely consort called Ashera and a host of lesser
deities all serving their various functions. One of the sons of El, called Yahweh,
became identified with the Israelites in Canaan as their tribal deity, being
one of the seventy nations assigned a lesser god. Since Yahweh later became
associated with Ashera she was adopted as Yahweh’s consort for good measure. (This
was a bit incestuous but Gods tend to be like that.)
Gods were deemed to be as powerful as their nations, the
Jews were politically weak consequently the status of Yahweh their national
champion, had dropped out of the top league. This was especially galling in
comparison to their neighbours Babylon and Egypt who by this analysis must have
had very powerful gods.
So what does a little nation do when down on its luck? It
rationalises its situation and concludes that Yahweh is punishing them for
their allegiance to other gods. Yahweh happens to have exaggerated human traits
such as jealousy and he just cannot abide other gods. So go for religious purity; out goes Ashera and
for a big dose of feel good factor, copy an Egyptian idea and make Yahweh
invisible (no one will notice!) and make him a supreme deity. Why not? Who could deny
it?
So this would explain the move from polytheism and the change to the
promotion of Yahweh as the only deity and also the dropping his female consort. It seems
to have been a move to get out of the fix of being a powerless nation and therefore having a powerless god. They assumed they must have been in a state of punishment to be so lowly. The idea of subsuming the power of all the gods
(especially Zeus and co) to the realms and control of their own puny Yahweh
must have given them a lift. Since the old Yahweh (Jehovah) actually did perform
as badly as his cow-headed idol looked, it must have been a clever move to say
that he was now invisible. Strangely although
the Bible would have us believe that polytheism amongst the Jews was an early
practice and long discarded,archaeology and textual criticism nowadays tends toward demonstrating that it
died out, if it did at all, as late as around the first century BCE.Any scholars out there who might have interesting leads on the subject?
Its also wise to consider the state of government in the early bronze age.
Religion and politics were not seperate, they were the same. You ruled through divine right, Egyptian Kings said they were living Gods- the people must have believed as they built all their monuments for their living Gods.
So, the priests and the Kings made policy. Laws were based on the codes of their Gods. This is an important point.
Early Judaism, roughly follows the laws written in the Bible. Jubilee years, debt jubilees, inherrited land as a birthright.
Other Pagan Gods, had different laws specifically to land ownership, not birthrights. Whenever you see a King of Israel adopt a foreign God, you can be sure he was using it to buy land and dispossess the various tribes birthrights. Its why they are seen as evil and wicked Kings. To adopt a new law code, you had to adopt a new God. So the Yahweh priests were humiliated, shrines to Baal or whoever were erected... so the Israelites followed the new laws.
Its not all black and white evil though, it was often done as need to develop the economy. Manasseh, seen as a bad King and the most wicked, was ruling as a Vassal King for Assyria. He had to raise huge tribute every few years. So he adopted foreign Gods, to buy land and create huge olive plantations to be able to pay the Assyrian's in oils, which was highly prized and well suited to Judah's climate and soil.
Later on, when Assyria fell and there was a power vacuum, no local superpower enabled Judah to be indepedent again, you find Josiah steps up to the throne. He reinstates the old laws with the backing of the Priests, "miraculously invents finds a old law book long lost!" and then is blessed by God obviously and becomes a Messiah figure until for no reason he dies by Gods hand for no reason.
Changing of Gods is linked to rule codes by the rulers. The old texts of the Bible do speak of the "sons of God, Israel is Yahwehs" describing different Gods in a Pantheon too.
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Nevermind wrote:
"Other Pagan Gods, had different laws specifically to land ownership, not birthrights. Whenever you see a King of Israel adopt a foreign God, you can be sure he was using it to buy land and dispossess the various tribes birthrights. Its why they are seen as evil and wicked Kings. To adopt a new law code, you had to adopt a new God. So the Yahweh priests were humiliated, shrines to Baal or whoever were erected... so the Israelites followed the new laws."
Some good points Nevermind. Especially the sense of gods being identified with king, state and territory and as I recall you have mentioned before; the relevance of good kings and bad kings. ” Good” and ”bad” being highly subjective terms dependant on what spin the writer wants to promote.
The Hebrew scriptures are about political expediency and the gods are at the very cause of their power struggles. An interesting case arises in the' Biblical story' (i.e. not necessarily a factual account) when Solomon ruled the newly united nation of Israel, he necessarily inherited a number of the Gods in the old pantheon such as Kemosh and others of the 70 sons of El including Jehovah. Indeed this would account for taking on both new territory which meant the land, the people and their Gods. So the united kingdom of the Canaanite Hebrews, later called IsraEL, meant having the gods of both the north and the southern kingdoms, the sons of the God EL.
The case for monotheism was a political resolution for all the conflict associated with new territories and their obnoxious resident deities. Instead of the conquerors having to accept the new gods, they punished the newly conquered people should they bring up the subject of their old gods...or perhaps just bludgeoned them to death if they persisted. The new-fangled invisible Jehovah was more than a trifle touchy about the subject of rival gods!
Whereas much of the subject content of the Hebrew Bible uses the courtly literature from Egypt and Babylon from the Bronze Age, by the time the lowly Jews get their scribes copying and altering them, and presenting them as sacred instruction...it is already the Iron Age. So the Hebrew text then is actually an Iron Age compilation (first collated about the 6th century BCE) based on earlier and ancient pagan writings and beliefs. Hence the anachronistic account of Iron Age domesticated camels set in Bronze Age Egypt. Whoops, God makes another boo boo! The Israelites description of themselves is always as if they were big players on the world scene but this was just chauvinistic propaganda; desert dwellers could never increase and prosper compared to riverine city cultures such as in Egypt, Babylon and the Indus Valley civilisation.
One of the difficulties of unravelling the history of the people and their gods mentioned in the Biblical myths, is knowing how and when words and expressions were used back then and linked to this, is the need for getting the chronology right. For example at what periods can you start labelling the Canaanites as Hebrews, Israelites or Jews with historical accuracy and objective neutrality? When looking at text; was it a re-worked translation of an earlier story? When and where does the myth end and fact creep in or vice versa?
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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The old polytheistic beliefs seem to linger in the verse in Genesis where God say, "In OUR image let us create them, male and female," my wording. Who is God talking to? My interpretation is that he's talking to his female consort, otherwise the verse doesn't make sense. (Please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't JWs believe God was talking to Jesus in this verse, AKA Michael the Archangel? I'm getting a bit hazy on their theology, which might be a good thing:) Ashera was considered to be Yahweh's consort, so maybe in the original rendering he was talking to her? Later scribes for whatever reason failed to alter or take out the verse.
There's a book called Women in Scripture that has a good section on Ashera, that in Israel she may have been associated with the king's mother. As the king represented Yahweh in the people's minds, his mother may have represented Ashera.
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half banana wrote:
Nevermind wrote:
"Other Pagan Gods, had different laws specifically to land ownership, not birthrights. Whenever you see a King of Israel adopt a foreign God, you can be sure he was using it to buy land and dispossess the various tribes birthrights. Its why they are seen as evil and wicked Kings. To adopt a new law code, you had to adopt a new God. So the Yahweh priests were humiliated, shrines to Baal or whoever were erected... so the Israelites followed the new laws."
Some good points Nevermind. Especially the sense of gods
being identified with king, state and territory and as I recall you have
mentioned before; the relevance of good kings and bad kings. ” Good” and ”bad” being highly
subjective terms dependant on what spin the writer wants to promote.
The Hebrew scriptures are about political expediency and the
gods are at the very cause of their power struggles. An interesting case arises in the' Biblical
story' (i.e. not necessarily a factual account) when Solomon ruled the newly
united nation of Israel, he necessarily inherited a number of the Gods in the
old pantheon such as Kemosh and others of the 70 sons of El including Jehovah.
Indeed this would account for taking on both new territory which meant the
land, the people and their Gods. So the united kingdom of the Canaanite
Hebrews, later called IsraEL, meant having the gods of both the north and the
southern kingdoms, the sons of the God EL.
The case for monotheism was a political resolution for all
the conflict associated with new territories and their obnoxious resident
deities. Instead of the conquerors having to accept the new gods, they punished
the newly conquered people should they bring up the subject of their old
gods...or perhaps just bludgeoned them to death if they persisted. The new-fangled invisible Jehovah was more than a trifle touchy about the subject of rival gods!
Whereas much of the subject content of the Hebrew Bible uses
the courtly literature from Egypt and Babylon from the Bronze Age, by the time
the lowly Jews get their scribes copying and altering them, and presenting them
as sacred instruction...it is already the Iron Age. So the Hebrew text then is
actually an Iron Age compilation (first collated about the 6th century BCE) based on
earlier and ancient pagan writings and beliefs. Hence the anachronistic account
of Iron Age domesticated camels set in Bronze Age Egypt. Whoops, God makes
another boo boo! The Israelites
description of themselves is always as if they were big players on the world
scene but this was just chauvinistic propaganda; desert dwellers could never increase and prosper compared to riverine city cultures such as in Egypt, Babylon and the Indus Valley civilisation.
One of the difficulties of unravelling the history of the
people and their gods mentioned in the Biblical myths, is knowing how and when words and
expressions were used back then and linked to this, is the need for getting the
chronology right. For example at what periods can you start labelling the
Canaanites as Hebrews, Israelites or Jews with historical accuracy and objective neutrality? When
looking at text; was it a re-worked translation of an earlier
story? When and where does the myth end and fact creep in or vice versa?
Its an interesting subject, but generally the rule of David and Solomon were during the first Dark ages, after the fall of the Bronze age and the collapse of the highly developed trading networks and globalised world of the time.
There is no way that David or Solomon could have ruled over an extensive empire during this time, and a united Israel is a myth. Northern Israel, Samaria, ruled by the Omrides was very successful and a regional power during the hiatus before Assyria returned to the world stage.
Much of Solomons accomplishments were actually Samarian accomplishments that the later Judean Israel took on as theirs. Samaria was destroyed by Assyria, Judah was left as a Vassal. At some point the Bible and the 2 different customs had to be merged to take on the Samarian refugees and show Judah as the primary power. Eventually, after 587bc and Ezra's compiling of the old Testament something like Modern Judaism began to form.
Before this though, Israel was a mix of beliefs. The very notion that Israel had been a nation with a monotheistic law code passed down since Moses and customs dating far back, is a myth. They switched between Gods as laws needed changing and nations needed a patriotic uniting.
The Bible is often said to be unique in that all the books fit together and don't really contradict each other. This is quite easily explained when you see how many times its been massaged together, redacted and edited to form some kind of consensus. Eventually all the polytheistic writings were taken out and that's how you got the Bible.
It is interesting that the Northern Kingdoms had their own shrines, and these were destroyed (by Jehu or Josiah if I remember correctly?)... and you see laws passed to bring burnt offerings to Jerusalem. Its a good way to keep money coming into the capital as everyone had to pilgrimage... Other forms of worship that are taken on by other Kings seemed to rely on local shrines, perhaps a way of placating the landowners or farmers as a long Pilgrimage with offerings is a sort of tax, so re-establish local religious centres removes that expense.
You can kind of track the power struggles between Kings with each change, and perhaps who backed him- the Priests would favour centrallised worship, a King with supporters in the hills would bring about local "Pagan" shrines. Its all political and not at all anything to do with "true worship" :D
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@SG, yes it makes great sense to interpret the act of creating men and women “In our image” to be in the image of Yahweh and his wife Ashera, not in the image Yahweh and Michael (or whatever The Watchtower are teaching at the moment on the pre Earthly Christ!)
@ Nevermind, I reckon it’s worth defining that the mythical basis for the Hebrew scripture is from at least three distinct sources: firstly from astrology whereby the predictable movements of heavenly bodies gave rise to universal stories about the Sun, Moon, stars, seasons and equally vital to the scenario; the daily sequence of sunlight and darkness. This was the pre-scientific explanation of why the many gods existed and what their roles were. Jehovah is a descendent of this pantheon adapted to Canaanite culture. Many Bible stories, OT and NT, are the celestial tales dressed up in new clothes for local consumption and entertainment which hardly reveals their celestial origins...unless you are aware of them. (As our friend Da Ninja reminds us.)
Secondly there are universal social myths explaining human behaviour in the light of divine rule, such as the creation myth and the flood. Also the Hebrew writings refer to many myths which were needed to explain the change from hunter-gatherer societies followed by herding (transhumance) then to agricultural settlements. Think of Cain and Abel, seed stories, harvesting, vine cultivation etc.
Thirdly, the Hebrew writings contain the traditional bombast of nationalism, a mythical history with a contrived genealogy of the Canaanite peoples and their bovine idol Jehovah who becomes invisible. (pull the other leg!) Modern Israeli archaeology is demonstrating the fictional nature of the Biblical stories. This is hardly surprising since historicity, or the idea of recording of events truthfully in the light of actual people and their words and actions, did not arrive until the eighteenth century Enlightenment. Handwritten documents were very easily copied with a new spin.
Another distinction worth making in regard to the shift from polytheism to monotheism is that of ‘henotheism’. This is where dogma demands that only one among many gods is to be worshipped. Without doubt some Canaanites went through this phase and then went on to ‘monolatry’; the consistent worship of one god. Did they in fact ever assert monotheism, which denies other gods, or do we just assume they must have done?
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
Last Edited By: half banana Jun 29 14 1:46 AM. Edited 1 times.
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according to all the occult (hidden) teachings....(not mine) it's due to the sun and axial precession
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession#Axial_precession_.28precession_of_the_equinoxes.29
Manly P Hall – The Secret teaching of all ages p.49
Concerning the annual passage of the sun through the twelve houses of the heavens, Robert Hewitt Brown, 32°, makes the following statement: "The Sun, as he pursued his way among these 'living creatures' of the zodiac, was said, in allegorical language, either to assume the nature of or to triumph over the sign he entered. The sun thus became a Bull in Taurus, and was worshiped as such by the Egyptians under the name of Apis, and by the Assyrians as Bel, Baal, or Bul. In Leo the sun became a Lion-slayer, Hercules, and an Archer in Sagittarius. In Pisces, the Fishes, he was a fish--Dagon, or Vishnu, the fish-god of the Philistines and Hindus."
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta11.htm
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da ninja wrote:
according to all the occult (hidden) teachings....(not mine) it's due to the sun and axial precession
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession#Axial_precession_.28precession_of_the_equinoxes.29
Hi Da Ninja, WHAT is due to the sun and axial precession? How does the axial precession relate to or impinge on the mythology?
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
Last Edited By: half banana Jun 29 14 8:12 AM. Edited 1 times.
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I personally don't think the Israelites ever truly had a monotheism. Not until later in their history. The Bible is full of notations that Israelites were worshipping other gods and at places other than the officially approved one. While a government may command worship in a particular way, citizens may continue to worship in ways that make more sense to them. There's a good example in Egyptian history. When Akhenaten banned the traditional gods, he forcibly closed temples and defaced images of the gods. He even changed his name from the original, which had the hated name Amun in it, to the new, which had the name of the Aten in it. Archaeological evidence shows that, in the privacy of their own homes, rank and file Egyptians continued to worship their own gods. They paid lip service to Aten and did their own thing in private. Makes sense that early Hebrews would have done the same. Publicly worship Yahweh and go on worshipping other gods in private. (Hence the demand that loyal believers turn in family members that secretly worshipped other gods.)
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And hence the community adoration of Big J at the meetings but private view that the Watchtower Society is just another mind controlling cult............
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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sg75 wrote:
I personally don't think the Israelites ever truly had a monotheism. Not until later in their history. The Bible is full of notations that Israelites were worshipping other gods and at places other than the officially approved one. While a government may command worship in a particular way, citizens may continue to worship in ways that make more sense to them. There's a good example in Egyptian history. When Akhenaten banned the traditional gods, he forcibly closed temples and defaced images of the gods. He even changed his name from the original, which had the hated name Amun in it, to the new, which had the name of the Aten in it. Archaeological evidence shows that, in the privacy of their own homes, rank and file Egyptians continued to worship their own gods. They paid lip service to Aten and did their own thing in private. Makes sense that early Hebrews would have done the same. Publicly worship Yahweh and go on worshipping other gods in private. (Hence the demand that loyal believers turn in family members that secretly worshipped other gods.)
This is what is annoying when speaking to JW family about Jewish history, they just say "We know they worshipped other Gods as its in the Bible... they were punished for it!"
What they don't seem to get, is that the official religion was polytheism, perhaps with 2 different versions of Jehovah from the North, and Judea. Its only later on, after they try to come to terms with how weak their religion and God was from preventing destruction by neighbouring "pagan" states that the biblical history was written saying it was always a Monothiesm.
The Bible is all fiction up until King Hezekiah. Then we find archaelolgical remains of extensive writing systems, pottery and engineering like the water channel into Jerusalem. The account of Hezekiah and Gods angel killing off all the Assyrian soldiers is also a myth, as records show that "bad king Manasseh" had to pay a huge tribute every year to Assyria plus the King of Assyria was alive far longer than the Bible pretends he died during the siege.
Its most likely a rewriting by later Josiah, to give himself legitimacy and power and pour scorn on the old Kings. Josiah was the first Jesus figure, the messiah. He died, then the 2nd coming of the messiah was needed. Jews are still looking for him, JW's think it was Jesus (now also returned invisibly :D )
The point is, the official religion and Moses law tablets are a load of crap invented much later, officially the Israelites were pagans for a lot longer until later reforms and power grabs by Kings and Ezra.
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Very clearly the Israelites started worshiping the imagined god designated YHVH while still holding on to a polytheistic mindset. The sin claimed by the tribal elders would have been to have worshipped any god other than Yahweh . This is not monotheism, this is monolatry, the exclusive worship of one particular god which acknowledges the presence of others. As with Akenaten, the prescription to worship a particular god, even by pharonic decree, did not make for monotheism properly.” Lip service” as you say SG, is what ensued.
Incidentally Amenhotep 3rd became the Pharaoh Akenaten (servant of Aten) , husband of the famous beauty Nerfetiti. He insisted that only Aten be worshipped which, as you mention SG, involved defacing all inscriptions mentioning other gods including Akhenaten’s father’s name which referred to the god Amun. (But since his son was Tutankhamun, how did he permit the ‘Amun’ epithet?)
What Akenaten was seeking was exclusive control; the common people were not allowed to worship Aten in any old manner! They could only worship through the Pharoah and his family as the exclusive channel. Sounds familiar doesn’t it? It reminds me of the Watchtower dredging up this old Canaanite god, calling him by the Latinised name Jehovah and making it their own god with themselves as the exclusive priestly channel.
But Akhenaten’s attempt at monotheism was not popular and not a lasting success. It bears the hallmark of the strange human impulse for purity. It seems that the Jews took their many so called ‘Mosaic’ hygiene laws from the Egyptian obsession with bodily purity (they not only shaved their hair off but their eyebrows as well). It was only a small step to link this with the notion of religious purity.
I think modern Christianity including WTBTS perpetuates the idea that there is only one god because it is based on the assumption that that is what the Jews believed.
The lessons of iconoclasm as lauded in the cases of the “good” kings of Israel; is that it relates not to religious purity but to taking power. For all the attempts at destroying the written and idolatrous presence of older or foreign gods, the later incumbents are equally flawed, including Jehovah, by their pagan pedigree as embodiments of astrological deities.
Taking Yahweh out of the polytheist pantheon and repackaging it as the ”only god” was a purely political manoeuvre.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
Last Edited By: half banana Jul 3 14 2:05 AM. Edited 1 times.
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My understanding was that Tut's birth name was Tutankaten. He changed his name to Tutankamun after he became ruler (or the name was changed for him, since he was a child when his father died.) After Tut became ruler, the old gods were officially back in favor and the Aten was out. Which led to Akhenaten and his entire family being erased from history. (Do unto others?) Good point about worshipping only through approved channels; I'd never thought of that before.
Nevermind, I'm guessing that those ancient pagan Hebrews blamed their nations troubles not on worshipping more than one god but on worshipping only Yahweh and neglecting the other gods. The other gods got miffed and sent punishments to remind people to give them their share of attention. Gods are touchy that way. Worship me or die!
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I read this in a comment on a youtube page, it sort of relates to this topic:
Yahweh wasn't omnipotent for most of the Bible. He actually had a very modest beginning, even when you go by scripture and take it at face value.
When Yahweh first got started as an enterprising member of the Hebrew pantheon, he was just one deity among a host of others for an insignificant tribe, overshadowed by such big dogs as Zeus, Ra and Ahura Mazda. Read the OT and you notice the word "we" often referring to the ancient Hebrew gods in the first few books of the OT.
Sometime after the Babylonia Captivity, the fast-tracking executive Yahweh managed to not only ascend to CDO (Chief Divine Officer) but also negotiated a leveraged buy out to become the monotheistic god of what was still a fairly minor civilization. Clever marketing spun a tale of a glorious Davidic empire but there's not much to support that it really existed.
As a personal setback, Yahweh ended up ditching his goddess wife in order to accomplish his monotheistic reorganization of the corporation. This led to some sexual frustration but he managed to sublimate his sex drive into massacring all of the tribes that occupied the real estate promised to his chosen people.
Even though he was the sole-owner of his company, the powers of Yahweh were still limited. Even in his own marketing brochures (holy scriptures) he is said to have needed to rest after a six day creation ("and he was refreshed"), had the strength of a bull (that's strong but not omnipotent) and he couldn't defeat a tribe that possess iron chariots. The angel that approved that last humiliating gaffe about the iron chariots and hastily sent that draft off to print is still on gate polishing duty. Luckily, most of his customers don't actually read the brochure but just scroll to the end and click "I agree".
Then his company endured a terrible setback. His assets were taken by an empire owned by a larger rival corporation run by Jupiter (formerly known as Zeus) and associates. Proving to be a shrewd negotiator, Yahweh negotiated for a joint-venture with his rivals and started a new subsidiary with a product that features the pagan technologies of afterlife, hellfire, intercessor agent and salvation. The new product proved to be a great breakthrough and had tremendous marketing appeal.
There was a defect in the product. The pagan intercessor technology couldn't properly interface with the monotheistic function. A highly buggy patch called "The Trinity" was issued a fix for this problem. It never worked right but fortunately few customers seemed to care.
Today, Yahweh is the sole proprietor of many different corporations. Having secured most of the monotheistic market, he's been able to ditch his wimpy sounding name in favor of being called simply "God".
Truly an all-American, rags-to-riches story.
From this guys channel
https://www.youtube.com/user/DeistPaladin
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#18 [-]
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Jul 5 14 10:04 AM
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LOL. Funny, but interesting. Sums it up nicely. Thanks for sharing that link.
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Jul 16 14 11:43 PM
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Sounds like he actually read my question and even put the business slant into the appropriately cynical answer!
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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SG, thank you for your satisfactory explanation for the reason why Akenaten's son's name Tutankamun should honour Amun and not Aten.
Amun, aka Amen still rules and is acceptable to the WTS Hey?
You can't get paganism out of religion 'cos that's what religion is all about............................ religion IS paganism ......amen.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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> How did a cow-headed wooden idol in the land of Canaan land the job as top deity?
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