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BYU-I Prof of Religion resigns  
Posted: 10 August 2014 09:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Curious NeverMo
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Apparently, Kirk Caudle's own personal beliefs in the corporate church weren't welcome and so he resigned from the university and the church.  He says he remains, however, "Mormon", a believer in the BOM and in Christ.   
 
 


   


Posted: 10 August 2014 10:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Poor dude thinks he can have his cake and eat it too. I hate to break it to him, but the mormon cake is made of shit.
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Posted: 10 August 2014 11:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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This guy sounds like John Dehlin. I just cannot understand Mormons who believe that they have the truth, but the prophet and apostles and all the other members do not. People like this believe in a sort of liberal God who doesn't care much about what form the worship of Him takes. In my mind that is just a step away from deciding that God or the gods do not care if you are a Christian, and two steps away from deciding that there is no evidence that gods exist and that you should just live your life according to morality instead of religion. 

   


Posted: 10 August 2014 11:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Kori
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Heretic:
This guy sounds like John Dehlin. I just cannot understand Mormons who believe that they have the truth, but the prophet and apostles and all the other members do not. People like this believe in a sort of liberal God who doesn't care much about what form the worship of Him takes. In my mind that is just a step away from deciding that God or the gods do not care if you are a Christian, and two steps away from deciding that there is no evidence that gods exist and that you should just live your life according to morality instead of religion.
I can't wait to see how people like this are going to act when the Islamic State has a black flag flying over the white house.
The answer to Religious Extremism isn't more religious extremism, it's more reason, logic, what works?
What happens when you have a pesky ant invasion?
You shut the mother f'ckers down!
You're not Mahatmah f'ing Gandhi at that moment, you're Einstein, who said, "Nuke the F'ckers before they nuke you!"
He was right then and he'd be right now.
Get it over with.
WTF is with this 14 year long war that accomplishes jack shit? 
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Posted: 10 August 2014 12:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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There is not going to be an Islamic black flag flying over the White House. Americans are vicious and ruthless fighters once aroused. In fact, sometimes they are so eager for battle that they attack the wrong country and fight the wrong war and only create more enemies. In World War II, the Axis never really had a chance of conquering America. Broad oceans defended it. These oceans were full of American warships, and the skies above were full of warplanes. On the shores awaited hordes of American infantry and armor. And beyond that there lay a populous nation full of well-armed civilian gun enthusiasts.
During the Cold War, there was practically no chance that the Communists would conquer the United States in a conventional war. The same issues as World War II, plus a large conventional war would be likely to escalate into a nuclear conflict, in which case neither side would have the strength left to conquer the other. (Chances are that neither side would have the strength left to keep their government running and maintain order.)
Bush the Lesser's "War on Terra" under the continuing management of Obama the Warmonger is not like these other two wars. America has drones, cruise missiles, stealth bombers, some of the best tanks in the world, and nukes, both tactical and strategic. And what do the Islamists have? Boxcutters, explosive suicide vests, improvised explosive devices, RPG's, and AK47's. Explain to me again: how are they going to raise their flag over the Whitehouse? 

   


Posted: 10 August 2014 01:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Curious NeverMo:
Apparently, Kirk Caudle's own personal beliefs in the corporate church weren't welcome and so he resigned from the university and the church.  He says he remains, however, "Mormon", a believer in the BOM and in Christ.   
 
 
 
 ANYWAY, back to the subject of the OP...
 
I haven't read the link, but I can somewhat relate to Mr. Caudle's position.  There was a time, couple of months probably, that during my exit I wanted something of the Mormon church to be true so I could have something in common with 50 years of my past and my TBM spouse at the time.
I knew Monson wasn't a prophet, didn't and hasn't done a damn thing, except pass out cookies to widows and wiggle his ears. 
I knew GBHinckley was a liar, which was a huge blow to my testimony..."I don't know that we teach that, I don't know that we emphasize that." I used to love him, and then he lied to me and the whole world.  :::mind blowing gesture:::
I kept going back...the rest is history. 
 
I'll go read the link now and see what he has to say. 
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Why would you consider a man a prophet whose morals are worse than your own? Having claimed to commune with deity, be visited by angels and receive revelations, should he not be held to a higher standard? —me


   


Posted: 10 August 2014 02:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Kori
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Heretic:
There is not going to be an Islamic black flag flying over the White House. Americans are vicious and ruthless fighters once aroused. In fact, sometimes they are so eager for battle that they attack the wrong country and fight the wrong war and only create more enemies. In World War II, the Axis never really had a chance of conquering America. Broad oceans defended it. These oceans were full of American warships, and the skies above were full of warplanes. On the shores awaited hordes of American infantry and armor. And beyond that there lay a populous nation full of well-armed civilian gun enthusiasts.
During the Cold War, there was practically no chance that the Communists would conquer the United States in a conventional war. The same issues as World War II, plus a large conventional war would be likely to escalate into a nuclear conflict, in which case neither side would have the strength left to conquer the other. (Chances are that neither side would have the strength left to keep their government running and maintain order.)
Bush the Lesser's "War on Terra" under the continuing management of Obama the Warmonger is not like these other two wars. America has drones, cruise missiles, stealth bombers, some of the best tanks in the world, and nukes, both tactical and strategic. And what do the Islamists have? Boxcutters, explosive suicide vests, Improvised explosive devices, RPG's, and AK47's. Explain to me again: how are they going to raise their flag over the Whitehouse?
 
 What makes you believe Iran doesnt have nuclear armed drones that can deliver a Hiroshima size bomb on Tel Aviv? 
 israel stops 75% of Hamas rockets with its iron dome. Meaning if ISIS flew 100 drones at Israel, 25 would get through.
 
25 nukes.
Should do it. 
How're we going to stop them if we can't stop illegals from coming in? 
Whos side Re you on, Israel's or their enemies? Were on both now. 
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“Not sure about a higher power but I definitely believe in re-sizing my images to not be so freaking wide.” Dark Chocolate


   


Posted: 10 August 2014 02:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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An excerpt from his comments in the article:
 
"At its heart, Mormonism is communal. I love that community with all of my heart. I have tried my best to give whatever I had to that community and time and time again I felt rejected by the communal family that I so closely love and cherish."
 
The problem with this statement is that "Mormonism" is not so much a "community" as it is an authoritarian organization that relies on heavy indoctrination and strict obedience to keep its members in line. If you voice any dissent, expect that your "community" will quickly throw you under the bus. 
 
 
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“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.”—Heber C Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, Page 32


   


Posted: 10 August 2014 04:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Community v. Communal...
 
Community sort of, to me, means a bunch of people who want the best for each other.  
 
When I think of communal, I think of a group that'll shut your ass down if you don't go along to get along.  
 
This brother is going to see the difference. 
 


   


Posted: 10 August 2014 04:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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I am on America's side. Israel is evil and oppresses the Palestinians and does not follow international law. The UN resolutions require that Israel give back the occupied territories and remove or abandon their unlawful settlements, and remove all their forces. So I am not on Israel's side. Iran is violating the nuclear non-proliferation rules by trying to build a nuclear weapon. So I am not on Iran's side.
Iran has its own agenda and is not the same as the Islamist terrorists we are chasing in Afghanistan. This is a separate conflict here. Iran is not part of the war in Afghanistan, and is not part of the war in Iraq. (Which is not part of the war in Afghanistan. At least it wasn't until our actions lead terrorist volunteers to travel from their own countries to go help the Iraqi resistance.) The United States needs to help enforce the nuclear non-proliferation policy by preventing Iran from building a nuclear weapon. At this point that would mainly involve toughening UN sanctions.
America does not stop illegal immigration because it does not really want to. A sizable minority of the US electorate feels sorry for the illegals and welcomes them. Now if these were terrorists with guns and bombs rather than hardworking braceros seeking jobs, you can bet we would have border security and precious few illegals would get across the border.
So tell me again: How it is that Islamists are going to capture Washington D.C. and raise their flag over the White House?


I feel sorry for Kirk Caudle losing his job as well as his church community. I admire his strength for getting out of that bad situation. I imagine that critics are going to attack him and use the old line about how he left the church because he was offended by the people. But is that really such a bad excuse? "By their fruits shall ye know them." If the church makes people be bad, is it so wrong to be offended by them and not want to associate with them or the church itself? 

   


Posted: 11 August 2014 10:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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He got thrown out because he questioned Brigham Young's "Transfiguration" into Joseph Smith?   
 
Oops... 
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 11 August 2014 11:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith
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Quartersawn:
Curious NeverMo:
Apparently, Kirk Caudle's own personal beliefs in the corporate church weren't welcome and so he resigned from the university and the church.  He says he remains, however, "Mormon", a believer in the BOM and in Christ.   
 
 
 
 ANYWAY, back to the subject of the OP...
 
I haven't read the link, but I can somewhat relate to Mr. Caudle's position.  There was a time, couple of months probably, that during my exit I wanted something of the Mormon church to be true so I could have something in common with 50 years of my past and my TBM spouse at the time.
I knew Monson wasn't a prophet, didn't and hasn't done a damn thing, except pass out cookies to widows and wiggle his ears. 
I knew GBHinckley was a liar, which was a huge blow to my testimony..."I don't know that we teach that, I don't know that we emphasize that." I used to love him, and then he lied to me and the whole world.  :::mind blowing gesture:::
I kept going back...the rest is history. 
 
I'll go read the link now and see what he has to say. 
 
I am going to chime in here...
 
Some of you may recall that I am also a former BYU-Idaho professor although not  a professor of religion.  I slipped away quietly from the University without any fanfare---No blogs, no newspaper articles, no facebook.  I point this out, because I am not the only one that has quietly left that University because of a 'Faith Transition'.
 
In retrospect I can see how many of my former fellow faculty members live their life in a constant state of 'cognotive dissonance.  Quite sad really---I was one of the fortunate ones that recognized it and got out.
 
Having now said that Quartersawn makes a great point and I will add another.  I was is such disarray after my 'Faith Crissis' hit.  It took me a hell of long time to process what was going on (I am still processing).  All kinds of defense mechanism came into play---I trusted only one person, who betrayed me.  I lacked any critical skills to navigate through what was happening.
 
Now having had some time pass and having learned some of these critical skills, I would have handled things differently. I suspect in a year or two this BYU-I professor will likely feel the same.
 
It was a very scary time for me---How many of you reading this think you really understand the anxiety when the career you have invested everything, a career you are very successful, the income to support a family, and the continuous insurance coverage your spouse needs for health problems, will all be taken away when you admit that you have serious doubts about the existance of god.
 
To make matters even more complicated there is not consistancy in TSCC on how to handle this (e.g. JD and KK). The bishop at the time of my admission to atheism stalled and gave me time to try and work things out (18 months).  He was released and the next bishop took it apon himself to 'cleanse the church' and notified the University immediately of my lack of 'testimony' (btw the University was not hasty in dismissing me---they allowed me to seek and find other employment and leave, me giving notice, when I was ready).  The bishop where we now reside, probably would have said, we all have doubts, that is life, teach your students good values.
 
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“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


Posted: 11 August 2014 03:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
Curious NeverMo
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So very glad to hear that BYU afforded you enough time to land on your feet.  It truly must have been a terrifying time!
 
I didn't realize that this was happening more frequently without the publicity. 


   


Posted: 11 August 2014 03:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
Inexile
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interesting. Forgive me if this is a little off topic or too ad hominem but is he really a professor? Isn't he just an online facilitator?
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Posted: 11 August 2014 05:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Inexile:
interesting. Forgive me if this is a little off topic or too ad hominem but is he really a professor? Isn't he just an online facilitator?
 
 "Online instructor" was his job title. He was classified as "adjunct faculty". Interestingly, he doesn't have any degrees from LDS colleges or universities. He got his MA at a Catholic university (Marylhurst) and his BA at a satellite campus of Oklahoma Christian University.
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Posted: 11 August 2014 07:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
Curious NeverMo
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Inexile:
interesting. Forgive me if this is a little off topic or too ad hominem but is he really a professor? Isn't he just an online facilitator?
 
 I took the article I read rather quickly as accurate.  It looks like you're right that he wasn't a full Professor.  


   


Posted: 12 August 2014 10:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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Curious NeverMo:
So very glad to hear that BYU afforded you enough time to land on your feet.  It truly must have been a terrifying time!
 
I didn't realize that this was happening more frequently without the publicity. 
 
I want to be clear about one thing---I do not know how frequent this happens. I personally know of me and three other faculty that are no longer there because of "not doubting our doubts".
 
I only have the perception of my own experience to make this comment:
 
What is more concerning to me is how many professors stay because of 'cognitive dissonance'. The dissonance is fuled, because they are trapped.  Once a professor has taught at BYU-Idaho, they are not very marketable at other universities. I could  name 10-12 professors that I heard comment that they would like to go somewhere else but they could not get hired.
 
I remember being so excited when Kim Clark replaced Bednar as the University president---I mean the dean of the Harvard Business School would surley bring an element of academia to the University---Oh boy was I ever wrong!!!  What I ultimatley learned was that the freedom to think and share ideas cannot coexist at that god aweful place. Bednar use to call BYU-I a 'disciple learning center'---education was secondary---when ever I heard him say this I always envisioned the clone army in Star Wars.
 
I am not sure that Kirk Caudle's adjunct status is any less significant, however I would wonder (assuming besides his adjunct position was held in addition to fulltime employment elsewhere) if it is easier to be more vocal, when financial ruin doesn't loom at your doorstep when one resigns a teaching position?
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Posted: 12 August 2014 12:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith:
Curious NeverMo:
So very glad to hear that BYU afforded you enough time to land on your feet.  It truly must have been a terrifying time!
 
I didn't realize that this was happening more frequently without the publicity. 
 
I want to be clear about one thing---I do not know how frequent this happens. I personally know of me and three other faculty that are no longer there because of "not doubting our doubts".
 
I only have the perception of my own experience to make this comment:
 
What is more concerning to me is how many professors stay because of 'cognitive dissonance'. The dissonance is fuled, because they are trapped.  Once a professor has taught at BYU-Idaho, they are not very marketable at other universities. I could  name 10-12 professors that I heard comment that they would like to go somewhere else but they could not get hired.
 
I remember being so excited when Kim Clark replaced Bednar as the University president---I mean the dean of the Harvard Business School would surley bring an element of academia to the University---Oh boy was I ever wrong!!!  What I ultimatley learned was that the freedom to think and share ideas cannot coexist at that god aweful place. Bednar use to call BYU-I a 'disciple learning center'---education was secondary---when ever I heard him say this I always envisioned the clone army in Star Wars.
 
I am not sure that Kirk Caudle's adjunct status is any less significant, however I would wonder (assuming besides his adjunct position was held in addition to fulltime employment elsewhere) if it is easier to be more vocal, when financial ruin doesn't loom at your doorstep when one resigns a teaching position?
 
Excellent point there. I'm certain that's the one thing which keeps many doubters quiet if they also happen to be in the church's employ. John McLay was a CES institute teacher when he resigned and he was immediately unemployable. I mean, his whole professional life was devoted to teaching mormonism. What the hell can you do with that in a non-mormon setting? Still, he had the cojones to leave the church. Too bad it cost him and Brooke their marriage (of course this was just one factor). 
 
Kirk Caudle says that his wife and children support him 100%. I wonder how true that is? My disaffection put a tremendous strain on our marriage. It's still the elephant in the room. If I had been employed by the church, and found myself not only unemployed but unemployable as well, I don't know if the marriage could have withstood the pressure. So to WinstonSmith's point, I think it is easier to leave when financial ruin is not looming, and it's probably a whole lot easier on the marriage.
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You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 12 August 2014 02:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith
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Matter Unorganized:
WinstonSmith:
Curious NeverMo:
<snip>
 
<snip>
 
 it is easier to be more vocal, when financial ruin doesn't loom at your doorstep when one resigns a teaching position?
 
Excellent point there. I'm certain that's the one thing which keeps many doubters quiet if they also happen to be in the church's employ. John McLay was a CES institute teacher when he resigned and he was immediately unemployable. I mean, his whole professional life was devoted to teaching mormonism. What the hell can you do with that in a non-mormon setting? Still, he had the cojones to leave the church. Too bad it cost him and Brooke their marriage (of course this was just one factor). 
 
Kirk Caudle says that his wife and children support him 100%. I wonder how true that is? My disaffection put a tremendous strain on our marriage. It's still the elephant in the room. If I had been employed by the church, and found myself not only unemployed but unemployable as well, I don't know if the marriage could have withstood the pressure. So to WinstonSmith's point, I think it is easier to leave when financial ruin is not looming, and it's probably a whole lot easier on the marriage.
 
[   ] I was a quiet doubter for 4 years due to this very reason.
 
[   ] MU, we both know that this statement is BS, unless his wife and children have major doubts about TSCC. 
 
[   ] My experience was the most difficult thing in my lilfe---The finacial aspect was not a strain on the marriage (with the exception tithing---I refused to be extorted out of money any longer).  The strain on my marriage is that I give more credance to facts and verifiable evidence than fairytales.  The irony---my DW is trapped---TSCC has crippled her ability to support herself, therefore leaving me is not an option for her. She will continue to pray for my soul (lol) and submit my name in the temple (LOL)---and I will keep responding that, maybe she has recieved an answer to her prayers---she is the one being decieved.
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Resignation and Family Records  
Posted: 08 August 2014 06:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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When one resigns, do the records of ones' parents reflect the fact? Because whether or not I'm resigning should be between me and God, not everyone to whom I'm related.  

   


Posted: 08 August 2014 07:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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The word on the street is that if you resign, your parents will learn of it in their year-end tithing settlement.  Your name will have an asterik or some annotation that signifies you are no longer a member on the information they are provided.
 
While I have heard this on other boards, I do not have first-hand knowledge.  I resigned two years ago, and my parents are still active, etc. and have attended two tithing settlements since without saying anything to me...but they know I have resigned.
 
 
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Posted: 08 August 2014 09:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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It's my understanding that you'll still show up as one of their children on their membership records. The records, of I've been told correctly, will still include your member/record number, so your parents shouldn't notice a thing. I can't remember who told me this, but I considered the information source reliable enough to send in my own letter at the time. I still haven't had a notification from TSCC, but it's only been a week since I put it in the mail. Other info of importance: on Mormon genealogical websites, you cannot see any information about a living person's membership status or ordinances. They won't find out your baptism and temple ordinances were invalidated until you're dead. I've personally verified this by logging on and looking at my parents and siblings records. Couldn't see any of that stuff for my parents, my siblings, or even my own kids.
 
I know my parents take comfort in the fact I'm "still a member" because it means I'm still sealed to them, so they can pull me up into the CK despite my apostasy so I can live as a ministering angel in their celestial mansion on high. I'd like for them to continue to have that comfort, so I hope they don't find out, even though they know I don't believe. Still, I had to resign, even at the Trish it might show up somewhere they would see it.
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Posted: 13 August 2014 11:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
Inexile
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Lord of Darkness:
The word on the street is that if you resign, your parents will learn of it in their year-end tithing settlement.  Your name will have an asterik or some annotation that signifies you are no longer a member on the information they are provided.
 
While I have heard this on other boards, I do not have first-hand knowledge.  I resigned two years ago, and my parents are still active, etc. and have attended two tithing settlements since without saying anything to me...but they know I have resigned.
 
 
 
There are many words on the street. Last I heard it is not reflected. At least this has changed in the past year or so.
 
My friend resigned, his little brother is still a teenager. At tithing settlement he peered over his dads shoulder to look at the sheet(because my friend told him ahead of time to look for this). His little brother said that everyone's names were there. Even the resigned son.
 
I've heard so many things over the years and could never get a straight answer. I got, it's not there at all, it's there but there is no membership number, then I got the answer that it doesn't look any different than your active siblings.
 
I'll let you know in January of 2015 though I don't think my parents would bring it up if they noticed I had resigned.
 
The way I look at it, even if your name isn't there people aren't looking for children's names, They are looking at the numbers/figures. Seeing if everything has been paid/acccounted for. You could probably put their kids as celebrities and many peopel would totally overlook it. I'm serious. I work in customer oriented finance. People overlook things all the time. Very obvious things.
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Unitarian Universalism?  
Posted: 03 August 2014 08:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Heretic
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I am profoundly ignorant on this topic. It makes no sense to me. There are no Unitarian Universalist churches within two hours of my home, so I cannot go check it out for myself.
If there is a church where no one in the congregation believes the same thing as anyone else in the congregation, is it still a church? It almost sounds like a social club. I have read that there are a lot of atheists and agnostics who attend. That is just bizarre. Many atheists and agnostics just hate to hear people talk about the supernatural when they have no evidence to back up their claims. I guess these non-religious people just enjoy the companionship and camaraderie of belonging to a church?
I never liked having to get up early on Sunday morning, wear church clothes, and sit in long meetings. These negatives for me outweighed the positives of social interaction and the intellectual stimulation that occasionally occurred at church. I just did not enjoy church.
I am just totally puzzled. Can anyone here enlighten me on why people attend the Unitarian Universalist church? 

   


Posted: 03 August 2014 09:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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UU is not the only religion that doesn't insist on theology or even belief.  Society of Friends or Quakers also don't make any requirements.  
 
I'm not a church goer.  I'm not a joiner of anything more social than blogs.  Still, even as an agnostic pushing the atheist boundary I can understand that we have spiritual lives even if they aren't based on a god.  And, I can understand that some people want a community.  Meanwhile, a community of people who believe in not insisting on anyone else having the same beliefs is not outrageous to me.  So, if it floats someone's boat, why not?
 
I will say that I occasionally go to Friends meetings when I'm traveling with a Quaker friend.  I will tell you that it's a very powerful experience.  A very real and interesting happens when people meditate together. It is both energizing and relaxing and it is a genuine respite from modern life.  I have never felt out of place OTOH or smothered OTO.  I never feel self-conscious about my own disbelief or judged for not having an intent to participate outside of the meeting.  I always look forward to another opportunity to spend a quiet hour with Friends I've never met. 
 
If anyone cares to check out a Friends meeting, they are a unique experience and, at least in the Northeast, they are often in lovely old buildings that have the same ethos of simplicity and grace that the splinter group, the Shakers, immortalized. 


   


Posted: 03 August 2014 09:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Ex_aedibus
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I'm not a UU myself, but perhaps people find in UU congregations a sense of community.  Mormonism does have community, but they also have a great deal of conformity.  Perhaps what attracts people to the UUs is the community minus the conformity.
 
There is an on-line UU congregation, namely the Church of the Larger Fellowship.  You can access their website here:
 
http://www.clfuu.org/
 
 


   


Posted: 04 August 2014 07:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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I go to the UU. When I disentangled myself from Mormonism I didn't feel any need for another religion and never went looking for one, even though I knew of the UU and knew it might be a good fit. Several years later, when I divorced I went to a UU service here in Columbia to hear a friend give the guest sermon. I liked the community, the people I met, so I started going from time to time and then more regularly. (It helps that it's just a few blocks from where I live.) 
 
What I really liked was their statement of principles, which you can find on the UU Assocation web site: 
 
1st Principle: The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
 
2nd Principle: Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
 
3rd Principle: Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
 
4th Principle: A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
 
5th Principle: The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
 
6th Principle: The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
 
7th Principle: Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.
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Posted: 04 August 2014 01:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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I should admit right up front that I have never attended a UU meeting.  But I want to, because from what I understand none of the negatives you mentioned apply to that organization.  I've heard that dressing up isn't expected.  I've heard they serve coffee.  I've heard the lessons aren't based on supernatural things, but rather on ways we can improve our own lives and the lives of others.  I plan to make it to a UU meeting soon to verify what I've heard.  Maybe it could be a great place to get a sense of community and make some new friends. 

   


Posted: 04 August 2014 02:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Lazarus:
I should admit right up front that I have never attended a UU meeting.  But I want to, because from what I understand none of the negatives you mentioned apply to that organization.  I've heard that dressing up isn't expected.  I've heard they serve coffee.  I've heard the lessons aren't based on supernatural things, but rather on ways we can improve our own lives and the lives of others.  I plan to make it to a UU meeting soon to verify what I've heard.  Maybe it could be a great place to get a sense of community and make some new friends.
 
All of this is correct. For me dressing up for a UU service means wearing a Polo shirt and sandals (like Jesus would want me to).
 
Congregations vary, of course, but I think that basically you can expect them to all be populated with free-thinkers. 
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Posted: 04 August 2014 04:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
Flora4
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Lazarus:
I should admit right up front that I have never attended a UU meeting.  But I want to, because from what I understand none of the negatives you mentioned apply to that organization.  I've heard that dressing up isn't expected.  I've heard they serve coffee.  I've heard the lessons aren't based on supernatural things, but rather on ways we can improve our own lives and the lives of others.  I plan to make it to a UU meeting soon to verify what I've heard.  Maybe it could be a great place to get a sense of community and make some new friends.
 
 I haven't been to a UU meeting either.  In my recent searching I came across the concept of Christian Deism.  There's a guy in Texas, who calls himself brother John.  He posted some webpages about the concept.
 
But- his story was that he was raised baptists and became a baptist priest.  He didn't like all the hell and damnation that was taught in his church, renounced Baptist ideas and started attending the UU.    He liked that the UU preached love for everyone regardless of beliefs and that they included a little bit of God.  But he says that in the 80's the UU  rewrote their mission statement and delete the mention of God altogether.  
That was when he left, but for athiests and agnostics, I'm sure the change was a relief.  So yeah, they probably stay away from supernatural things.


   


Posted: 04 August 2014 09:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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thewriterwithin
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I am UU. I went on and off for a long time before I joined. Not that I go more now.
 
Congregations vary. Ironically, the one in Salt Lack is among the most atheist and critical of religions -- because they get so many burned Mormons. Some Congregations are more Christian.
 
You don't need to believe in any deity to join. I don't. And I was first introduced to The God Delusion by their book table. (They always have coffee after services with various tables -- always one for books.)
 
I would not say it is just a social club, however, and UU is not for everyone, and perhaps it is not for you. (And nothing wrong with that.)
 
Just because they don't believe in a god (nor gods nor goddesses, as they would be quick to point out) does not mean they believe in nothing. They believe in justice, equality, social responsibility, and community. They also hang back from judging those who don't share your beliefs -- or lack thereof, so if you want to mock, judge, or blame believers, UU is not the right place for you. You will be expected to amicably rub elbows with believers (of various stripes) and the even the occasional Christian. It also might be too lefty for you. Not everyone is but most are, and if you would be irritated by people drinking fair trade coffee and peddling green light bulbs, chances are you are going to be uncomfortable -- possibly as much so as at a Mormon Church.
 
There are some modest rituals, but they seem sweet to me. For example for the baby naming, they have the entire family come to the front with the baby. The mom then holds the baby (as she should), and the child is presented with a rose from which the thorns have been cut. The rose is the beauty of life. The thorns are cut away to show how a community can help take the prickles out of life and make it smoother for the baby. If you object to all that (and I can't stress this enough, why shouldn't you?), you might not like UU.
 
Beyond that there is a lot of socializing. I love the Circle Suppers. You sign up to have dinner at your house. People sign on to come. Another great tradition is the single people of the congregation go to a luncheon after services, which are roughly an hour long. So you can go church at 10 and be sipping a Mimosa by noon. Rather cushy after Mormonism.
 
One of the best thing UU offers is a class in Building Your Own Theology. I took it, and it rocked. They will let you take it even if you have no intention of joining. In a supportive group you look at your past with religion, what it meant to you, how it damaged you, how it made you stronger. Then you work out for yourself what you want in a theology. My group was led by the nicest gay couple. And it was all very touching. You really have a chance to work through some issues. Of course at the end of it, you might conclude that your theology has nothing to do with any building or any group of people.
 
And the coolest thing about the Unitarians? That will be just fine with them. 
 
 
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Posted: 05 August 2014 05:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Thanks, TWW, for this great mini-primer on UU.  
It's refreshing to learn of a church that helps you ask questions
rather than one that claims to have all the answers (and clearly doesn't).
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Posted: 05 August 2014 08:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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The UU church where I currently live is too far away, but I'm moving soon and there are two within 20 minutes of me. I'm planning to check one or both out just to see if there's a community out there that doesn't push dogma but that can support me and my family as we strive to be good people. I have some exmo friends who love the UU church and its open-minded, socially progressive messages.  

   


Posted: 06 August 2014 09:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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thewriterwithin:
I am UU. I went on and off for a long time before I joined. Not that I go more now.
 
Congregations vary. Ironically, the one in Salt Lack is among the most atheist and critical of religions -- because they get so many burned Mormons. Some Congregations are more Christian.
 
You don't need to believe in any deity to join. I don't. And I was first introduced to The God Delusion by their book table. (They always have coffee after services with various tables -- always one for books.)
 
I would not say it is just a social club, however, and UU is not for everyone, and perhaps it is not for you. (And nothing wrong with that.)
 
Just because they don't believe in a god (nor gods nor goddesses, as they would be quick to point out) does not mean they believe in nothing. They believe in justice, equality, social responsibility, and community. They also hang back from judging those who don't share your beliefs -- or lack thereof, so if you want to mock, judge, or blame believers, UU is not the right place for you. You will be expected to amicably rub elbows with believers (of various stripes) and the even the occasional Christian. It also might be too lefty for you. Not everyone is but most are, and if you would be irritated by people drinking fair trade coffee and peddling green light bulbs, chances are you are going to be uncomfortable -- possibly as much so as at a Mormon Church.
 
There are some modest rituals, but they seem sweet to me. For example for the baby naming, they have the entire family come to the front with the baby. The mom then holds the baby (as she should), and the child is presented with a rose from which the thorns have been cut. The rose is the beauty of life. The thorns are cut away to show how a community can help take the prickles out of life and make it smoother for the baby. If you object to all that (and I can't stress this enough, why shouldn't you?), you might not like UU.
 
Beyond that there is a lot of socializing. I love the Circle Suppers. You sign up to have dinner at your house. People sign on to come. Another great tradition is the single people of the congregation go to a luncheon after services, which are roughly an hour long. So you can go church at 10 and be sipping a Mimosa by noon. Rather cushy after Mormonism.
 
One of the best thing UU offers is a class in Building Your Own Theology. I took it, and it rocked. They will let you take it even if you have no intention of joining. In a supportive group you look at your past with religion, what it meant to you, how it damaged you, how it made you stronger. Then you work out for yourself what you want in a theology. My group was led by the nicest gay couple. And it was all very touching. You really have a chance to work through some issues. Of course at the end of it, you might conclude that your theology has nothing to do with any building or any group of people.
 
And the coolest thing about the Unitarians? That will be just fine with them. 
 
 
 
 TWW,
 
Yes, thank you for sharing this insight.  I know you and I have slightly locked horns over my feelings that religion is dangerous due to its ability to control minds.  This does sound different from most religions--more like a social club--like was mentioned.  Maybe that is why is sounds so much better.  Still, I personally, would have my critical thinking skills ready--just in case--someone decided to control me due to the fact that I had developed a "need" for this organization to a point that they had control of my mind.  It does sound like a nice group.  If mormonism were this harmless...well, none of us would be here!
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Posted: 07 August 2014 05:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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After attending two UU meetings or services, I would say that there is very little demand or pressure, to conform to expectations. I feel its more of a open community service social club of sorts where people mingle to involve themselves with more community public service projects. I think that is where their reward or personal satisfaction comes from, applying their time and money to service projects within their communities, regardless of who receives the benefits.
 
 


   


Posted: 07 August 2014 02:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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former victim:
After attending two UU meetings or services, I would say that there is very little demand or pressure, to conform to expectations. I feel its more of a open community service social club of sorts where people mingle to involve themselves with more community public service projects. I think that is where their reward or personal satisfaction comes from, applying their time and money to service projects within their communities, regardless of who receives the benefits.
 
 
 
 The one thing that might make it a bit safer is it sounds like it does not include "hero worship."  Of course, that could always change.  There is that importance of the critical thinking skills--always turned to "ON."
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Posted: 07 August 2014 04:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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I have been very intrigued by this "church". We are lucky to have two congregations in the city I live in. One of these days I swear I'm going to go ( I've been enjoying my Sundays off too much). One of the things I miss about church is the community and feeling of belonging, and opportunities to serve  (not that the Mormon church serves it's community. Serves itself yes, but not the community). 
 
I could never join another church, especially a Christian church, but this looks more like a group of people comng together for friendship, service, and building each other up. 
 
Here is a link I found, 100 FAQs. Reading through this was such a breath of fresh air. The honesty and integrity is a nice change.  
 
  http://www.uunashua.org/100quest.shtml


   


Posted: 07 August 2014 08:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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SevenofNine:
I have been very intrigued by this "church". We are lucky to have two congregations in the city I live in. One of these days I swear I'm going to go ( I've been enjoying my Sundays off too much). One of the things I miss about church is the community and feeling of belonging, and opportunities to serve  (not that the Mormon church serves it's community. Serves itself yes, but not the community). 
 
I could never join another church, especially a Christian church, but this looks more like a group of people comng together for friendship, service, and building each other up. 
 
Here is a link I found, 100 FAQs. Reading through this was such a breath of fresh air. The honesty and integrity is a nice change.  
 
  http://www.uunashua.org/100quest.shtml
Religion would be OK if it were based on love, honesty, respect, compassion, and most of all--truth. Would not a religion like that be one that the entire world could be a part of?  All good people want those things.  I believe someday we will evolve to this point--then we will have peace on earth.  It would take us all watching and making sure religion never when back to the mind-control and hero worship that has abused mankind since the beginning of time. 
 
However, I retain the right to someday worship the hero in the man I will finally call my own.   He will just have to be man enough to handle that!   (This has nothing to do with religion--by the way.  Just felt like saying it!)  Ha!
 
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Posted: 07 August 2014 09:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
Ninon de Lenclos
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Strong Free & Thankful:
However, I retain the right to someday worship the hero in the man I will finally call my own.   He will just have to be man enough to handle that!   (This has nothing to do with religion--by the way.  Just felt like saying it!)  Ha!
 
 
This is exactly, precisely, what I feel too, Strong Free & Thankful...
 
As Christopher Vogler has so eloquently shown all of us: the heroes all around us...those who go through the challenges of the Hero's Journey and transform themselves into the heroes of their own lives...are the truest heroes there are.


   


Posted: 08 August 2014 05:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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I attended a UU service once and was surprised to see images depicting not only Jesus, but Vishnu, Buddha, nature, gods I don't know, more nature... It was a very warm and welcoming place. They baptized a child (although they called it "dedicating" the child) and both parents participated. Mind you, it was a sprinkling ritual, much like a Catholic baptism, but without mention of God or Jesus or angels and such. This was about 25 years ago, so things may have changed since then.
 
After the dedication, the pastor gave one of the best sermons I had ever heard, one which I could use to better myself without having to first think and make sense of parables or "coded" information. It was direct and to the point. I told my TBM father (on the stake high council at the time) and he was not impressed. "It's not the true church, and that's not God's way of doing things." I didn't even get to tell him about the whole experience.
 
If I ever were to attend a congregation regularly, it would be UU. Unfortunately, there is not one in my town, but I have recently considered looking in to what is required to become a UU minister and starting a congregation where I live. Still, after all the mormon indoctrination, I find the concept of making my living through preaching and pastoral care to be a bit ... distasteful? I don't know. 
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Posted: 08 August 2014 12:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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thewriterwithin
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Strong Free & Thankful:
 
 
 TWW,
 
Yes, thank you for sharing this insight.  I know you and I have slightly locked horns over my feelings that religion is dangerous due to its ability to control minds.  This does sound different from most religions--more like a social club--like was mentioned.  Maybe that is why is sounds so much better.  Still, I personally, would have my critical thinking skills ready--just in case--someone decided to control me due to the fact that I had developed a "need" for this organization to a point that they had control of my mind.  It does sound like a nice group.  If mormonism were this harmless...well, none of us would be here!
 
Well, there is no reason in the world people should run out to join UU -- or even attend. But it is living proof that not all religions seek to control your mind.
 
As with everything, people have different experiences. Mine has been that if anything, my UU congregation errs on the other side.
 
That nice gay couple who led my Building Your Own Theology class? They were also both retired science teachers.
 
One week we were supposed to bring in quotes about religion to discuss. I brought two -- one was from A Demon-Haunted World -- which was very well received and praised.
 
The other was from some Catholic thing I had come across. I liked it because it said that everyone everywhere, even those born before Jesus' time or living in cultures that never crossed paths with Christianity, had access to God's grace. I liked it because of the inclusiveness and because I interpret such thing as "God's grace" to possibly be metaphors for say -- human dignity, human worth, and life's transcendent moments. That quote frankly brought more of a puzzled frown. Well, they weren't retired POETRY teachers, now were they.
 
Also, one woman started our group and dropped out. She had been raised Catholic, and while she didn't want that, she was looking for a church in which she felt comfortable raising her kids. She obviously wanted something more spiritual. At least I thought so, and I felt bad, as though we had somehow failed her or failed to include her.
 
If you disagree with a sermon, frankly, the pastor would love it if you went up to him and explained why.
 
I would say they almost DEMAND critical thinking skills from you. Also in stark contrast to Mormonism -- their books are not only open, you are expected to attend meetings where you voice your opinion about how money should be spent. They rather frown on me because I don't know if I want to be all THAT involved.
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Gays the ‘stone cut from the mountain without hands’?  
Posted: 08 August 2014 01:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Nephi
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1.6% of 7 BILLION people (population of the earth) is 112 MILLION people.
There are about 15 million Mormons.
Could it be the Gays who are the stone cut from the mountain..., etc?
More gays than mormons by at least 7 times.
Is this why 'the mormon moment' has stalled and maybe become 'the gay moment'?
Why gay marriage is gaining traction while mormon plural marriage is feared by believing mormons?
Why mormon leaders are so afraid of 'gay folk' a lot like they used to be afraid of 'colored folk'?
Joseph Fielding Smith once said 'darkies are nice people'. Will Tommie Monson say 'gays are nice people'? If so, will it become scripture or is he speaking as a fool again?
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