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Blacks & Priesthoood  
Posted: 09 August 2014 05:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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How do we know Spence and the Twelve weren't 'speaking as men' with this?
 
More than a century of "doctrine" and strong statements by previous "Prophets" and First Presidencies... and Spence comes up with a CYA political type statement that saves BYU sports from public protests and saves L-d$,inc from severe tax and financial consequences.
 
 
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 ‹‹ PoMo dating preferences        Watched Dateline’s Warren Jeff’s episode with a Mormon, who told me she didn’t want to ID herself as Mormon anymore after that. lol ››  

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St. Joe Company?
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Still changing....
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who the Gentiles really were...
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Help setting boundaries and a lot of venting
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Watched Dateline's Warren Jeff's episode with a Mormon, who told me she didn't want to ID herself as Mormon anymore after that. lol
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The Misattributed Cycle of Victory over Self-Abuse! - What is your Gap of Onan?
by Ex_aedibus
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by Old Kinderhooker 

  
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[Post-Mormon Mag.]



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It wasn’t a “revelation” that ended Mormon polygamy. It was a U.S. Supreme Court decision against the “late corporation” of the LDS Church (links)  
Posted: 04 August 2014 10:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
CdnXMo
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For generations, the official Latter-day Saint 'truth' about why Mormon polygamy in the 19th century came to an end was because church president, Wilford Woodruff, had received a "revelation" nixing the practice (but not the doctrine, which has never been rescinded and remains part of LDS scripture, per D&C 132). The LDS Church's Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual says:
 
"The Lord showed me [Woodruff] by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice. If we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for Brother Merrill, for Brother Edlefsen, for Brother Roskelley, for Brother Leishman, or for any of the men in this temple at Logan; for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. Confusion would reign throughout Israel, and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practice. Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our prophets and apostles and fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people, so that the dead may be redeemed?"
 
Ironically, it was Woodruff who, as a senior Mormon apostle, told Latter-day Saints in 1869:
 
"This Priesthood, these keys of the kingdom of God that have been sealed upon him [church president Brigham Young], the world is at war against; let them say what they may, these things are what they are at enmity with. Their present objection to the Latter-day Saints, they say, is plurality of wives...
 
"If we were to do away with polygamy, it would only be one feather in the bird, one ordinance in the Church and kingdom. Do away with that, then we must do away with prophets and Apostles, with revelation and the gifts and graces of the Gospel, and finally give up our religion altogether and turn sectarians and do as the world does, then all would be right. We just can't do that, for God has commanded us to build up His kingdom and to bear our testimony to the nations of the earth, and we are going to do it, come life or come death. He has told us to do thus, and we shall obey Him in days to come as we have in days past."
 
In late 1890, Woodruff flip-flopped on the issue of polygamy and issued what has become known in the Mormon Church as the "Manifesto" (Official Declaration 1), which stated: "We are not teaching polygamy or plural marriage, nor permitting any person to enter into its practice, and I [Woodruff] deny that either forty or any other number of plural marriages have during that period been solemnized in our Temples or in any other place in the Territory."
 
Why did Woodruff do an about-face in relation to Mormonism's "plurality of wives"? Because on May 19, 1890, the U.S. Supreme Court drove the final legal nail in the coffin of the "The Late Corporation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" by issuing its decision, "136 U.S. 1", which stated:
 
"Congress had the power to repeal the act of incorporation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints not only by virtue of its general power over the territories, but by virtue of an express reservation in the organic act of the Territory of Utah of the power to disapprove and annul the acts of its legislature."
 
"Congress, as the supreme legislature of Utah, had full power and authority to direct the winding up of the affairs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as a defunct corporation, with a view to the due appropriation of its property to legitimate religious and charitable uses conformable, as near as practicable, to those to which it was originally dedicated."
 
"The pretense of [LDS] religious belief cannot deprive Congress of the power to prohibit polygamy and all other open offenses against the enlightened sentiment of mankind." 
 
The Supreme Court's written decision repeatedly mentioned Congress' Act of 1862, which the court upheld. The legislation in question was the Morrill Anti-Bigamy Act, which, according to USLegal.com, was "the first basic federal legislation by the Congress of the United States that was designed to punish and prevent the practice of polygamy in the U.S... The Morrill Anti-Bigamy Act was later amended in 1882 by the Edmunds Act, and then again in 1887 by the Edmunds-Tucker Act."
 
In the mid-19th century, it was Mormon polygamist and church president Brigham Young who decided (in July 1847) that the Latter-day Saints would settle in the Salt Lake Valley. At that time, Utah was not part of the United States and would not become a U.S. Territory until September 1850.
 
Going further back in Latter-day Saint history, polygamy started a few years after Joseph Smith (JS) launched his "Church of Christ" in early 1830. He was married to Emma and moving forward with his 'career' as the leading Mormon "prophet." In his late 20s, he also took a fancy to Fanny Alger, a teenage girl who worked in the Smith couple's home. 
 
Some years before young Fanny, who was described as "comly" (good-looking), came to JS' attention, he had written a "revelation" reportedly from "the Lord" (D&C 42) that said:  
 
"Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else.
 
"And he that looketh upon a woman to lust after her shall deny the faith, and shall not have the Spirit; and if he repents not he shall be cast out."
 
The person who ended up being "cast out" (from the Smith household) was vulnerable Fanny. Why? Because she "was unable to conceal the consequences of her celestial relation with the prophet," according to Chauncey Webb, the father of Ann Eliza Webb, who became one of Brigham Young's 55 wives. It doesn't much imagination to conclude that JS got the adolescent girl pregnant.
 
According to the LDS Church's online genealogical record for Fanny, JS married her in 1835. At the time, they lived in Kirtland, Ohio. During the 1830s, Section 7 of the Ohio Session Laws stated (on p. 136): "That if any married person, having a husband or wife living, shall marry any other person; every person so offending shall be deemed guilty of a high misdemeanor, and upon conviction thereof, shall be imprisoned in the penitentiary, and kept at hard labor, not exceeding seven nor less than three years."
  
Latter-day Saint polygamy, which has persisted to this day in fundamentalist LDS groups in Utah and other jurisdictions, began with an illegal act by JS, Mormonism's so-called "prophet of the Restoration." However, the ancient Christian church didn't teach or advocate having more than one spouse.
 
It's also noteworthy that the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants stated in Section 101: "Inasmuch as this Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy [because of JS], we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife, and one woman but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again." 
 
In early 1842, after JS had illegally married Fanny plus the wives of five men and two single women (at least), he wrote Mormonism's "Articles of Faith", which included the following declaration: "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." 
 
Latter-day Saint history reveals otherwise. Like deceit, hypocrisy has been foundational to Mormonism since its genesis more than 184 years ago.
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Posted: 04 August 2014 10:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Felix
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I don't know why everyone refers to any of Josephs clandestine affairs as "marriage." I think Oliver Cowdery had it correct when he referred to the Fanny Alger incident as "the dirty nasty filthy affair."
 
Especially so with the affairs with other mens wives. How can anyone get off calling this marriage? It was done behind the backs of faithful husbands, most of whom were faithful members. It was they who were doing the heavy lifting of marriage; caring for their family and supporting them. 
 
Joseph was merely licking the icing off someone else's cake. This looks a bit more like indulgence than sacrifice on Josephs part. If my faith is weak I am more inclined to believe and follow a leader who demonstrated his convictions by sacrifice, not indulgence and then attempting to conceal and lie about it.
 
I believe the revelation received by John Taylor when the government was coming down on the church for the practice of polygamy is appropriate with this thread.

Given to President John Taylor September 27, 1886
My son John, you have asked me concerning the New and Everlasting Covenant how far it is binding upon my people.
Thus saith the Lord: All commandments that I give must be obeyed by those calling themselves by my name unless they are revoked by me or by my authority, and how can I revoke an everlasting covenant, for I the Lord am everlasting and my everlasting covenants cannot be abrogated nor done away with, but they stand forever.
Have I not given my word in great plainness on this subject? Yet have not great numbers of my people been negligent in the observance of my law and the keeping of my commandments, and yet have I borne with them these many years; and this because of their weakness—because of the perilous times, and furthermore, it is more pleasing to me that men should use their free agency in regard to these matters. Nevertheless, I the Lord do not change and my word and my covenants and my law do not, and as I have heretofore said by my servant Joseph: All those who would enter into my glory must and shall obey my law. And have I not commanded men that if they were Abraham’s seed and would enter into my glory, they must do the works of Abraham. I have not revoked this law, nor will I, for it is everlasting, and those who will enter into my glory must obey the conditions thereof; even so, Amen.[5]
 
I believe that there has been some controversy about whether or not the revelation is genuine. The fundamentalist believe it to be genuine and so do I although I don't believe God had any thing to do with it.
 
 


   


Posted: 05 August 2014 01:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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If you are interested in the topic, I would highly recommend Dr. Kathleen Flake's book on the Reed Smoot hearings.  (Even BYU Studies gives it a positive review, despite the fact that it clearly shows the Church violating its own revelation and its duplicity in the matter of polygamy for almost 20 years.)
 
In it, she demonstrates through official church history records and the Congressional Record that live polygamous marriages continued in the mainline Church in temples almost to World War I, and only truly began to taper off after the hearings, the so-called "Second Manifesto," and the accompanying excommunications of Matthias Cowley and John W Taylor from the Q15.  Even after that, the Lyman investigation showed the mainline Church doing live plural marriages after 1909.
 
The so called revelation of Wilford Woodruff was a smoke screen, behind which the Church tried to contunue polygamy.  It was the US Congress, the general mocking of Joseph F Smith before the nation, and what we would call the Church PR department that ended it so many years later. 
 


   


Posted: 05 August 2014 01:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
CdnXMo
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bradspencer:
If you are interested in the topic, I would highly recommend Dr. Kathleen Flake's book on the Reed Smoot hearings.  (Even BYU Studies gives it a positive review, despite the fact that it clearly shows the Church violating its own revelation and its duplicity in the matter of polygamy for almost 20 years.)
 
I second bradspencer's recommendation. The following excerpts are from the Introduction of Dr. Flake's illuminating book, The Politics of American Religious Identity: The Seating of Senator Reed Smoot, Mormon Apostle:
 
"Between 1903 and 1907, a broad coalition of American Protestant churches, acting directly through their ministers and indirectly through various reform agencies, sought to expel Utah's new senator [Reed Smoot] on the grounds that his ecclesiastical position [as a Latter-day Saint apostle] made him a conspirator in the L.D.S. Church's continuing violation of the nation's antipolygamy laws. In the Smoot hearing, as in every other Mormon conflict of the previous century, the Protestants were the chief combatants."
 
"Mormons did not, nor were they invited to, participate in the effort to reform American social institutions. Indeed, they were at best the objects of reform and at worst deemed incapable of reform. For nineteenth-century Americans, including church history scholar Phillip Schaff, there was an 'irreconcilable antagonism of the American nationality with the pseudo-Christian polygamists, [and] deceitful, rapacious, and rebellious Mormonism.' Though rightly stripped of its normative indictment, Schaff's finding in historic Mormonism an extraordinary degree of otherness remains the scholarly consensus. 'The Mormons attracted attention as a useful counterimage,' according to one modern analysis, 'a glaring example of what America was not and should not be.'"

"Several factors contributed to the L.D.S. Church's bad reputation, and they are discussed in the chapters that follow. For now, the observation must suffice that aside from the fear they inspired by successfully dominating the mountain West as a political domain, the Latter-day Saints attracted the hostility that belongs to the foil, that dramatic persona whose very likeness exaggerates opposition to its difference. Organized in 1830 and rooted in New England restorationism and frontier utopianism, Mormonism had early and always attracted the negative attention of its fellow citizens, but no more so than when it claimed the right to restore Old Testament polygamy. Rumors of it contributed to the mob violence that chased Mormons from the Ohio Valley to the banks of the Mississippi and, finally, to the isolated Great Basin on the far side of the Rockies. By the middle of the nineteenth century, Americans were so aggravated by Latter-day Saint beliefs and practices that a sixth of the antebellum U.S. Army was stationed in the foothills overlooking Salt Lake City to police the Mormon kingdom. After the Civil War, a series of anti[-]polygamy statutes criminalized the church’s marital practices and sent more than a thousand of its members to federal prisons, as well as disincorporating their church and confiscating its property. After several failed attempts, statehood was granted the Utah territory in 1896, largely based on the church’s 1890 promise to abandon its unique marital practice. When the Smoot hearing showed that the Mormons had continued to practice polygamy, the national debate on Mormonism was reinvigorated and performed on the public stage of the U.S. Senate.
 
"The four-year Senate proceeding created a 3,500-page record of testimony by 100 witnesses on every peculiarity of Mormonism, especially its polygamous family structure, ritual worship practices, 'secret oaths,' open canon, economic communalism, and theocratic politics. The public participated actively in the proceedings. In the Capitol, spectators lined the halls, waiting for limited seats in the committee room, and filled the galleries to hear floor debates. For those who could not see for themselves, journalists and cartoonists depicted each day's admission and outrage. At the height of the hearing some senators were receiving a thousand letters a day from angry constituents. What remains of these public petitions fills eleven feet of shelf space, the largest such collection in the National Archives.
 
"Notwithstanding the news coverage dedicated to the trial, there was nothing new to report. Or more accurately, the only news was that the Mormons had not changed. After following the hearing for a year and a half, Illinois senator Shelby Cullom concluded, 'Mormonism is the same menace to this country as it was from the beginning.' Indeed, the basic facts of the case were so familiar that over the years they had been reduced to the label, 'the Mormon Problem'."
 
"America's problem with the Latter-day Saints was not simply or even primarily a matter of unlawful action, but of conflicting authority. The Latter-day Saints appealed to the law of their god, given through modern prophets, to justify their resistance to the law of the land."
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Posted: 05 August 2014 01:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Thanks for the post CdnXMo. Growing up I never learned about the acts of congress or Supreme Court decision that retroactively dissolved the LDS church. Or the several decades of time that passed after that before the modern LDS church was re-incorporated as The Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We learned about the spiritual transition between Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. But we never about the dissolution and later recreation of the church. We also didn't learn about the attempts to retroactively re-deed Church property by prominent Mormons in the late 1800s to individuals so that the government couldn't take it away. The modern LDS church (re-founded after the polygamy issue and several prophets and decades passed) turned 90 recently. For some reason they didn't celebrate that milestone. Clarity 

   


Posted: 05 August 2014 01:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
CdnXMo
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Clarity:
Growing up I never learned about the acts of congress or Supreme Court decision that retroactively dissolved the LDS church.
 
The following is historical info. from the U.S. Senate's website:
 
"On February 23, 1903, the credentials for Reed Smoot (R-UT) were presented and placed on file. On the same day, a memorial from several Salt Lake City residents asked that Smoot, a well-known and influential Mormon manufacturer and banker, not be permitted to take his seat. The protesters were a small group of businessmen and Protestant ministers who opposed Mormon economic policies in Utah.
 
"On March 5, 1903, Reed Smoot appeared and took his oath of office, under the Senate's policy that a senator whose credentials were in order would be seated and any challenges dealt with afterward. The arrival of the Mormon senator, a member of the church's powerful Quorum of Twelve Apostles, attracted national attention and unleashed a torrent of complaints against him. Petitions with thousands of signatures flooded the Senate from Protestant churches, women's organizations outraged by polygamy, and others influenced by newpaper attacks on Smoot. The protesters charged that the Mormon leadership, including the Quorum of Twelve, held supreme authority over both spiritual and temporal matters for its members and frequently interfered in Utah politics. They also complained that the leaders continued to believe in, encourage, and practice polygamy, even though it was illegal.
 
"The deluge of petitions and resolutions moved the Senate on January 27, 1904, to order an investigation into the hierarchy of the Mormon church. A central issue was whether Smoot, as one of the Quorum of Twelve, had taken a church fealty oath that made him ineligible to sit in the United State Senate. The Senate referred the matter to the Committee on Privileges and Elections."
 
[My note: The "church fealty oath" in question included the LDS Church's oath of vengeance - part of the supposedly 'holy' temple endowment ceremony - against "this nation," i.e., the United States.]
 
"Response of the Senate

"The committee plunged into an investigation that lasted more than two years, gathering testimony that filled five volumes. The scope of the investigation expanded far beyond Smoot and became a full dissection of the structure and machinery of the Mormon church, as well as the temporal and religious concerns of Mormons. Arguments against Smoot centered on three points: he was a member of a church that encouraged polygamy; he had taken a religious oath that disqualified him from the Senate; and he was a member of a religion that united church and state.
The Smoot forces argued that since 1890 the Mormon church had not 'controlled or attempted to control elections in Utah,' and Smoot had never taken any oath including 'an obligation of hostility to the United States,' as had been alleged. They also correctly observed that other Mormons—although none holding such high positions in the church—had already been elected to and served in the U.S. Congress. More directly relevant to the matter at hand was the argument that none of the practices of the Mormon church had any bearing on Smoot's constitutional qualifications to be a United States senator.
 
"Despite this significant point, the committee on June 1, 1906, voted 7 to 5 that Smoot was not entitled to his seat. On June 11 a divided committee filed majority and minority reports. The majority recommended that Smoot be removed from office, having concluded that he perceived his first loyalty to be the maintenance of the corporate and spiritual interests of Utah's Mormons. For its part, the minority report contended that testimony before the committee failed to substantiate any of the charges against Smoot. The lengthy proceedings never included personal attacks on the senator, whose character was above reproach.
 
"When the Senate reconvened in December 1906 after its summer recess, the Smoot case took center stage. Privileges and Elections Committee Chairman Julius C. Burrows (R-MI) led the attack against Smoot, tying him and the Mormon church to support for polygamy. Smoot, however, gained some eloquent defenders, among them noted orator Albert J. Beveridge (R-IN), one of those signing the committee's minority report. Not only was Smoot not himself a polygamist, Beveridge asserted, but 'the evidence shows that, from the first, Reed Smoot has been the leader of the younger, wiser, and more modern element of his Church that oppose that insult to marriage.' He then closed with a stirring call for religious tolerance.
 
"On February 20, 1907, the ordeal of Reed Smoot—during which he conducted himself with grace and dignity—finally reached a conclusion. After deciding to require a two-thirds vote to declare Smoot not entitled to his seat, the Senate first voted down a move to expel him, 27 yeas to 43 nays, and then refused by a vote of 28 yeas to 42 nays to deny the Utah senator his right to remain in the Senate.
 
"Conclusion
x 
"The investigation into Reed Smoot's right to a Senate seat had in many ways been an American trial of the Mormon Church. In permitting Smoot to retain his seat, the U.S. Senate took a stand in support of religious freedom for all Americans. In practical terms, the staunch support of Republican President Theodore Roosevelt had helped to ensure the margin of victory by encouraging wavering Republican senators to stand firm.
 
"Reed Smoot served in the Senate for thirty years. At his death in 1941, he was third in line for the presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."
 
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Posted: 05 August 2014 02:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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The church also fails to teach that there is no possible way Joseph Smith's dalliances with Fanny Alger could have been sanctioned: his tryst with her occurred in 1835, and the keys to the new and everlasting covenant were not restored by Elijah until 3 April, 1836, well AFTER Emma had walked in on Joseph and Fanny humping in the barn.
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“Loving your life is a sin, hating it is a commandment” - Jesus.  
Posted: 05 August 2014 01:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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I found a great facebook page, Nonsense from the Bible. It's full of contradictions, bad advice, morally reprehensible stories, and infographics to go with them!
 
Here's some bad advice from Jesus: 
 
 
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Posted: 05 August 2014 02:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Funny (and kinda sad). Thanks for sharing. :) 

   


Posted: 05 August 2014 02:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Very amusing...as is your profile pic matter unorganized. smile 

   


Posted: 06 August 2014 05:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Hate yourself, love the church.  Love the church because only the church can make you happy.  Hate yourself because you are fallen and are lost and are a natural man and an enemy to god.  Love God because he was nice enough to give you the church.  Love the church because they give you all the rules you need to follow.  Hate yourself because you can't follow all the rules.  Love the church because they allow you to keep paying them your money and time and if you keep doing that, without fail, maybe you can produce enough works to access the mormon grace that will help you feel, right before you die, that maybe, you qualified for the top level of heaven.
 
Who could possibly love their life when they really believe that life is literally a test?  What a horrible way to look at life.  Mormon Jesus needs you to hate your life because why else would you put up with church? 
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Posted: 06 August 2014 05:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Fear and self-loathing. That's how mormonism works. Open your eyes people...
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Posted: 06 August 2014 04:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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The old view: Do things our way or suffer in Hell forever.
 
The edited version: Do things our way or be cut off from God's presence forever.
 
The Mormon version: Do things our way or be cut off from everyone you love forever.
 
I guess that's progress of a sort.


   


            
 
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Why are Mormons such dick heads?  
Posted: 04 August 2014 09:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Perhaps because the God they worship, the ancient Egyptian Phalic God, Min, has a huge dick and two 2' long golden dicks growing out of his head?
He's got 4' of dick coming out of his head.
And he's black, ironically.  
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Posted: 04 August 2014 10:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Once they discovered Joseph had identified the Egyptian Phalic God Min, as the God of Mormonism, they got embarased for 98 years and depicted Min with a flacid member, until 1976, the height of the push for the ERA, when Mormons proudly reinserted Min's Dick in their depictions of God. here (pages 50-58)  Now they're kind of proud of their God, Min's huge dick. 
 
Here's FAIR LDS's answer to the charge that depicting God as an Egyptian Phalic God Min, with a huge erection is pornographic.
 
-
This attitude reflected by some is a good example of how our modern, sexually-obsessed society can easily misinterpret religious art. We see an erect penis in a drawing and think "pornography," whereas an ancient Egyptian would have seen one and thought of fertility, virility and life. Hence the depiction of Min with an erection was a sign of his life-giving ability.  
 
You guys are just soooo immature! You can't handle the TRUTH®
Yeah our God has a huge erection and we're proud of it!!!
Get over it, you sick perverts!!!
 
 
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Posted: 04 August 2014 10:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Kori you are in fine form as usual.  Thanks for the laugh this morning.  I can only add that tbms, especially the super orthodox ones, are in fact, huge dicks.  I am thinking of all the men in the church, young and old, who just KNOW all the answers and know that they are the only ones with the RIGHT answers.  They go through life judgeing everybody with self righteous assuredness and it is god damn annoying.  You listen to a guy like Ralph Hancock on a Dehlin podcast or something and your like, "oh my god that dude is such a dick".
 
I take comfort that while I may still be an asshole, I am certainly no longer a dick.  I am a much nicer and less judgemental person as a non believer now and life is way better because of it.  Also, I am more open to learning from people that are different.  Sounds simple but it is impossible if you are a wackjob tbm. 
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My life has changed in many ways
If your name is love show me some grace, yeah
When everything you know
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My name is love

My Name Is Love
Rob Dickenson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcoppZrxvTI


   


Posted: 04 August 2014 04:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Kori,
It bemuses me that in their 'pride' in celebrating God's 'fertility', while reprimanding everyone else's dirty pornographic minds, they move God's penis/phallus from his groin to the middle of his abdomen, where is might easily be confused for a forearm, unless you were familiar with the art it derived from.
Alternatively, it may actually be a strap-on dildo, and placed with the straps around his shoulders, instead of his legs.
Oh I love Mormon masculinity. It is so,............... so,.................. macho!
The more Mormons struggle to sanitise their messy and profoundly dishonest relationship with sex and their sexually addicted conman founder, the deeper the hole they dig for themselves.
Dig on! Would you like to borrow a shovel?
Daryl
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‘and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl


   


Posted: 04 August 2014 04:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Bold Wish
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Lloyd Dobler:
. . . while I may still be an asshole, I am certainly no longer a dick. 
 
That's progress?
 
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Posted: 04 August 2014 06:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Bold Wish:
Lloyd Dobler:
. . . while I may still be an asshole, I am certainly no longer a dick. 
 
That's progress?
 
 
 Being only an asshole is better than being both an asshole and a dick, so I'd say Lloyd has made good progress.
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Posted: 04 August 2014 06:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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This attitude reflected by some is a good example of how our modern, sexually-obsessed society can easily misinterpret religious art. We see an erect penis in a drawing and think "pornography," whereas an ancient Egyptian would have seen one and thought of fertility, virility and life. Hence the depiction of Min with an erection was a sign of his life-giving ability.  
 
-----------------
 
Want to bet the secretaries typing this up for the Holy Priesthood Brethren don't have 'bare shoulders' or upper arms while doing so?
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He does not, however - have power in the Priesthood.
That is reserved for the Cat.


   


Posted: 04 August 2014 07:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Old Kinderhooker
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Nephi:
Snip
-----------------
 
Want to bet the secretaries typing this up for the Holy Priesthood Brethren don't have 'bare shoulders' or upper arms while doing so?
 
 Yet, the Holy Priesthood Brethren have raging erections while watching their dainty fingers type.
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Posted: 04 August 2014 07:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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-
This attitude reflected by some is a good example of how our modern, sexually-obsessed society can easily misinterpret religious art. We see an erect penis in a drawing and think "pornography," whereas an ancient Egyptian would have seen one and thought of fertility, virility and life. Hence the depiction of Min with an erection was a sign of his life-giving ability.  
 
 
 
 This statement is so astonishingly stupid. Humans have been sexually obsessed since day 1.  Are they really calling that "religious art" and that we are too carnal to think otherwise?  Unbelievable. That statement doesn't deny that what Joseph labeled god is actually Min. Kori you are on to something for sure!


   


Posted: 05 August 2014 03:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Huge Dicks? Because they aren't allowed to "relieve" the pressure?
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Posted: 05 August 2014 05:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Dogzilla Joy
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Huge dicks? 
 
In your imaginations, maybe. 
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Posted: 05 August 2014 07:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Kori
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Dogzilla Joy:
Huge dicks? 
 
In your imaginations, maybe. 
 
 I mean that in the, "Don't be a dick" sense of the word.
Not that Mormons HAVE huge dicks.
I think it's like little guys buying big trucks, they're compensating. 
They think if they worship a God with a big dick, that 'endows' them with a huge dick.
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Posted: 05 August 2014 08:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
outclassed
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Wait, so size does matter?
 
 


   


Posted: 05 August 2014 09:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
Mountainhippie
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Stigmata:


-
This attitude reflected by some is a good example of how our modern, sexually-obsessed society can easily misinterpret religious art. We see an erect penis in a drawing and think "pornography," whereas an ancient Egyptian would have seen one and thought of fertility, virility and life. Hence the depiction of Min with an erection was a sign of his life-giving ability.  
 
 
 
 This statement is so astonishingly stupid. Humans have been sexually obsessed since day 1.  Are they really calling that "religious art" and that we are too carnal to think otherwise?  Unbelievable. That statement doesn't deny that what Joseph labeled god is actually Min. Kori you are on to something for sure!
 
 I think we haver two extremes here and the truth is probably more in the middle. While humans have been sexually obsessed since the dawn of man, many cultures have also been much more open, accepting, mature, and in my opinion healthy with regard to attitudes about sexuality.
 
There have also always been different people at different levels of maturity/kinkiness/prudishness in every society and every time period just as there are today. 
 
I think it is more of a matter of maturity than purity with regard to sexual matters. People most likely weren't as elevated and pure as the first statement implies and possibly not kinky as the second. And if they were "kinky" they were more open and mature about it than much of America and the Morridor in particular are today.
 
Just one example to back up my argument, one will often find fully exposed shoulders on ancient iconography, egyptian, greek, and roman in particular but I don't think such immages were necessarily sexualized in nature. Contrast that with the current reaction if a nice looking woman in a bikini or even just a sleeveless sun dress somehow slipped past the editor of the Ensign.
 
Are modern Mormons more sexually pure or just immature?  
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Posted: 05 August 2014 04:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Born Free
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In my experience, many people fail to grasp the difference between a penis and a phallus, and feminine equivalents.
 
'Primitive art' is rich with representations of outsized penises (is the plural peni?), testes, female breasts, bellies and vulva. Iconic representation of penises go up to as large as the size of building columns. Clealry on such a scale they are no longer representations of penises in any normal sense. Something else is going on.
These are not oversized as in pornographic 'well-hung' or 'BB', but in an iconographic way. They communicate to the brain on a very deep, even pre-conscious level.
 
Just as research with some birds has shown that if a hugely oversized egg shaped object is placed near their nest, their simple, icon-encoded brain motivates them to attempt to roll the huge fake back into the nest, while they ignore real eggs. Ultra-egginess beats ordinary egginess.
This is the 'shorthand' level at which certain objects are processed by the brain. But of course as arrogant humans who insist on over-rating our thinking abilities, we insist we are beyond such primitive functioning.
But oversized breasts, for instance, function no better that size A breasts as mammary glands, yet for some people their ampleness presses their 'breastiness' mental button, better than a size A. Clearly something else is going on.
 
And Mormons are particulalry so. Their refusal to even attempt to relate to sexuality in something approximating normality, twists out of shape how they respond to anything sex-related in the world.
So they are obsessive about pre-marital sex, and sex generally, while at the same time insisting 'sex is sacred'.
Daryl
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‘and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl


   


            
 
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I can’t think for myself…Can I?  
Posted: 04 August 2014 10:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Youngsinglerunning
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Hello Bros and sisters of the un-fold,
 
So If you read my blog you know i'm dating an AMAZING Never Mo! Frist time dating outside the church and loving it!  WOW! The church has the nerve to Brainwash woman into believing that Never Mormon men are all Awful!  This is by far the best relationship i have ever been in.  I can just be myself! He can be himsel.  We are just WEselfs!  
 
Here is my problem.  I don't know how I feel about a lot of things.  Stuff that the church decided for me...like kids.  I have never had to think weather or not i want to have kids. It was always asumed before.  My BF has jokingly said many times he does not want to have kids... I'm not sure how i feel about kids...Infact there are alot of things that have suprized me about him.  I recently found out he smokes on occasion.  Gosh.  I really have no idea what i want in a guy.  I keep thinking I should just break up with him because we have been dating for 5 months and he has not said "I LOVE YOU" to me.  
 
For those of you who have dated both in the church and out what and how do you do it?  I'm so lost... 
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Posted: 04 August 2014 12:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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You have something, Y&SR, that your "sisters" in TSCC do not have:  The ability – and desire – to make up your own mind!  
 
'Tis way different than having your dad/bishop/SP/RS Prezz/mom telling you what you HAVE to do!
 
I wish you well! 
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Posted: 04 August 2014 04:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Congrats ysr - you deserve the best!
 
I can't answer your question b/c I've never dated any nevermo men.
 
And I love your intro " Hello Bros and sisters of the un-fold "  - lol!
 
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Posted: 05 August 2014 09:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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While on my way out of the church, I dated a nevermo woman and we were recently married. I completely understand the excited feelings you have. I look back and can't imagine ever marrying a faithful LDS person at this point. Being out of the church myself, and being married to a non-LDS person is wonderful.
 
I echo what has been said in this thread: enjoy the fact that you get to choose for yourself! When I first started leaving the church, even though I knew I didn't have to follow church rules anymore, I still had this part of my brain that felt like I needed to figure out what the 'right' answers were as far as how I should live my life. I felt lost, like I didn't know where to get the right answers anymore. I felt like I was bordering on the edge of complete and total hedonism, because I wasn't used to having this kind of freedom. I was actually scared of becoming a hedonist...that I would just do whatever feels good.
 
Of course, this didn't happen. I learned, through much turmoil as I battled out of the mental chains of Mormonism, that I can actually trust myself to be a decent person and that I can judge my actions based on how they actually affect myself and others, instead of trying to find some arbitrary right answers from the sky. And not only did I trust myself to judge the real-life consequences of my actions, I also got to choose based on my own personal preferences. What a concept!
 
If you don't want to date someone who smokes, you don't have to. If you decide you don't mind, then you get to decide that to. It is your life and you will be the one to walk in your shoes.
 
Interestingly for me, the only two rules I have really decided to follow now are these:
 
1) Do things that are out of unconditional love for myself
 
2) Do things that are out of loving my fellow human beings as much as I love myself
 
(and if there is an afterlife, these two rules are plenty enough to make me happy in the next life)
 
So if I want to have some beers, all I have to do is decide if how I drink is hurting myself or others. If not, then drink away! There is a lot of freedom to enjoy life when you are simply trying to make the world a better and more loving place, which includes having more fun while you're at it!
 
Give yourself permission to figure out how you want to live your life. Try to let go of the pressure to conform to some set of rules or expectations. Decide what your values are. It may take time to work through this. It has taken me a lot of work to figure out who I am and how I choose to live my life. I never realized how liberal I am (not just politically). I often find myself being surprised how I simply just don't worry anymore (except for a few post-Mormon hiccups) about being a good or bad person, about doing the right or wrong thing, because I trust myself. I trust myself to do my best, so I don't have to worry about it anymore.
 
And my wife has helped me more than just about anyone in this world in learning to be myself and enjoy life. I wouldn't trade that for several dozen 8-cow eternal wives.
 
So, in a nutshell, marrying a heathen was the best thing I ever did. 
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Posted: 05 August 2014 11:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
Hermit53
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This post (and comments) reminds me of a paragraph I read recently in a book I was reading that made a statement on this very subject. It said that members "learn to live, follow, and obey the laws, rules, and directions of men as though they come from Christ. Instead of looking to the scriptures, learning what Jesus' views were on things, and making decisions for themselves as a guide in their daily lives, the members are dependent upon the Church leadership for all direction."  Making your own decisions doesn't mean you're not a Christian...unless they lead to actions that are plainly contrary to Christian values, but you have to read and study to know what those values and the personality of Christ are instead of being told how to act like a Christian. 


   


            
 
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“Google Issues Apology After Declaring Mormonism To Be A ‘Cult’” (link)  
Posted: 31 July 2014 11:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Posted: 01 August 2014 06:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Guess those big business mormons got to google. Pity, they were telling the truth.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 01 August 2014 12:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Old Kinderhooker
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The real pity is that the article still doesn't use the correct definition of the word "cult" as the basis for the categorization. Forget about doctrinal divergences. Mormonism is a cult because it rapes the minds of its followers and propagates like a virus.
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I say unto you who are not yet free, Remember the power of “No”, for this word alone will keep you free from Morg mind control.


   


Posted: 01 August 2014 06:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Heretic
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Google wimped out and caved into pressure. Mormonism is indeed a cult. Not because its Christian doctrines are different from more average Christian doctrines, but because Mormonism is a religion which demands an unusually large amount of time, money, energy, loyalty, and obedience from its members. Mormonism influences or controls virtually every aspect of its members' lives. These things are what makes it a cult. 

   


Posted: 02 August 2014 03:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Bold Wish
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Heretic:
Mormonism is indeed a cult . . . [snippy snip snip] . . . because Mormonism is a religion which demands an unusually large amount of time, money, energy, loyalty, and obedience from its members. Mormonism influences or controls virtually every aspect of its members' lives. These things are what makes it a cult.
 
 
I agree but also because of the false promises the cult provides in return for the demanding, total control behavior.
 
It's pretty simple when I ask my TBM friends:  "Okay, so you don't think your religious organization is a cult even though they control your underwear, require you swear with an oath you will give all your money, time and other resources to their organization, discourage you from reading facts about their history, tell you to follow only their prophet wile doubting any valid and reasonable doubts, and they will kick you out if you begin publicly asking questions about their thirty-something year old founder who claimed god commanded him to have sex with a fourteen year old, two sixteen year olds, and women who were already married?
 
No, you're right, that's not a cult, it's a total mind f**k."
 
 
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Lloyd Dobler:
There is almost no limit to how bad the church will make you their bitch.


   


Posted: 02 August 2014 06:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Suspicious Minds
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If you had asked me if the Mormon church is a cult 8 years ago I would have replied with an adamant NO!  I would have taken great offense to the statement had you asked me and I likely would have disassociated myself from you and shunned you. 
 
As a faithful Latter-day Saint for over 44 years, I held strongly to the following beliefs:
I will follow the prophet and Church leaders without question, and have faith in the beliefs, ideology, and practices as the literal Truth, and as Heavenly Father's law.
I am afraid of losing my membership in the Church and risk being punished if I question, doubt, and or show signs of dissent.  It is wrong to criticize the leaders or the Church, even if the criticism is true.
I will read my scriptures, go to church every week, do my home teaching, go to the temple, and do everything that I am asked to do because it makes me happy and I will one day be judged for my good works.
I will follow the leadership's counsel at all times, even when it dictates how I should think, act, and feel; who I should date, where I should marry, and what types of clothes I should wear; how I should spend my free time, how my family should spend our free time together and what types of extra-curricular activities are appropriate; what I should or should not read, and what food and drinks I should consume or avoid.
I believe the Church to be the only true church on Earth. I believe membership to the Church and faithfulness to its leaders and teachings are the only way to find true happiness and eternal life. I believe it is my duty to share my beliefs with my non-member neighbors, coworkers, friends and strangers, so they can have the opportunity to be saved and receive blessings.
I believe in supporting the Church even if it goes against what the world may believe. For example, I don’t believe in giving marriage rights to those practicing same-sex attraction if the prophet says that it shouldn’t be allowed.
I believe the only authority the prophet or Church leaders are accountable to is the Lord and no one else.
I believe Heavenly Father will test our faithfulness to Him by asking us through his servants to do things that others may find are reprehensible or unethical. For example, although I may not like it, I would support polygamy if the Church reinstated it. I believe we do not have a full understanding of what is needed to achieve exaltation, and all things Heavenly Father commands us to do are for our best interest and will enable us to return to His presence and have everlasting life.  I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.
I will keep myself worthy to receive blessings in this life and next. I believe those who succumb to worldly temptations or disregard the prophet and Church teachings are not worthy to receive personal happiness in this life or be an eternal family after death. I believe it is appropriate to give a personal accounting on a regular basis of my thoughts, words and actions to a Bishop, for he has the authority to determine my worthiness to participate at church and receive blessings. He also has the authority to punish me if I begin to break the Lord’s commandments and sin.
I believe all Church members are my brothers and sisters. I believe the Bishop is the father of our ward and helps strengthen our "family" by spending hours together studying, listening and praying, going to the temple together and visiting each other in our individual homes to reinforce what we have studied and heard. I do not want to discuss or hear anything negative about my beliefs, and view them as hostile attacks from an enemy who wants to destroy my faith and relationship with Heavenly Father. I will also realign my life with whatever the Church asks of me.
I will willingly put my life on hold for 2 years in an effort to bring new members into the Church. I will continue to do missionary work throughout my life and will share the gospel with everyone I meet. I pray for missionary opportunities.
I will willingly pay 10% of my gross income to the Church for tithing and will donate each month to fast offerings, missionary fund, etc., to build up the kingdom of God.  I believe paying a full tithe makes me worthy to participate at church and enter the holy temple, and participate in special meetings. I will pay the Church first, even if I or my family must make personal sacrifices and go without basic necessities of life. I have no doubt the Lord will bless us for making this financial sacrifice.  Heavenly Father will open the windows of heaven and there will be not room enough to receive his blessings.
I believe it is an honor to receive callings in the Church from inspired leaders through direct revelation, and the inordinate amounts of time expected to devote to these callings or Church activities will bring me and my family many blessings.
All of my true and closest friends are LDS. I will only date/marry an LDS person in the temple. I have little in common with non-members, and am careful not to associate with non-members unless they share my same moral background or express interest in learning more about the gospel.
I can't imagine not being a member of the Church. My whole life is tied into the Church. If my membership were to be revoked, it would be comparable to death. All would be lost and life would become meaningless. My only hope would be for me to repent of my sins and be forgiven by those in authority over me so I could be re-baptized. My eternal salvation is dependant upon my membership in the Church, and I will never doubt it or even consider leaving, no matter what.
So what of the question, "Is the Mormon Church a cult?"  We can either retreat and further entrench our long held beliefs and views, or we can consider the possibility of that claim and examine it, scrutinize it, study it, research it and draw our own conclusions.  Do the following "cult characteristics" apply to my formerly held beliefs? 
 
http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm
 
http://freedomofmind.com/Info/BITE/bitemodel.php
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BjecRzDoHg
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az4tE2eLoKc
 
1.  The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.
2.  Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
3.  The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).
4.  The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).
5.  The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.
6.  The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).
7.  The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).
8.  The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.
9.  Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.
10.  The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
11.  The group is preoccupied with making money.
12.  Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.
13.  Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
14.  The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.
 
Without any doubt or hesitation I can in the most clearest and unrefrained terms I know, declare I was self deluded and experienced first hand the harmful effects of cult mind control.  I only needed to open my eyes, heart and mind to the possibility that the Mormon church wasn't what it claimed to be.  I have my integrity and honesty intact, I am happy, my marriage is strong and life is sweet!  Where we go from here is a mystery.  The past is history.  The present is a gift and I'm living it!
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Posted: 02 August 2014 07:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Baroque Dust
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How many presbyterians do you know that have recovery boards? How many 'ex-methodists' do you know? How many people that come out of the Protestant church need therapy. I do get Jehovah Withnesses, Catholics and Evangelicals are a cult. What is a cult? Any organization that does not let you leave with your dignity intact. Mormonism is indeed a cult. No apology necessary, google.
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Posted: 02 August 2014 07:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Maybe Google isn't very sorry, because it has not changed anything. I just did a Google search again using the words "Is Mormonism a cult?" And came up with the same result the article cites:
"Is Mormonism a cult? | LDS christian or cult? | Latter Day ... carm.org/is-mormonism-cult by matt slick - Yes, Mormonism is a cult, a non-Christian cult because Mormonism denies essential biblical teachings and adds new, false doctrines. Mormonism, also called ..." 

   


Posted: 02 August 2014 07:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Baroque Dust
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Heretic:
Maybe Google isn't very sorry, because it has not changed anything. I just did a Google search again using the words "Is Mormonism a cult?" And came up with the same result 
 
 Awesome Sauce 
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“Re-examine all you have been told…discard what insults your soul.”  Walt Whitman


   


Posted: 02 August 2014 08:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Ex_aedibus
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While Mormonism may not be a cult in the same way Scientology® or the Unification Church is, there are also some very problematic teachings which have not been resolved.
 
One of the most problematic of these are the teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, especially his talk on ''14 Principles of Following the Prophets''.  
 
https://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/fourteen-fundamentals-in-following-the-prophet?lang=eng&query=following+the+prophet
 
This talk requires without exception the absolute assent of intellect and wil to whatever the prophet says.  While Mormons may say that the prophet is not infallible, they treat, and are encouraged to treat each and every utterance of his as divinely inspired.  We know that this is not true.  If it were, the astronauts of Apollo 11 would have found men dressed like Quakers there.
 
Lamentably, it was recycled in a talk given by Claudio R.M. Costa in 2010.
 
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/obedience-to-the-prophets?lang=eng&query=following+the+prophet
 
It's stuff like this which makes everyone think that they belong to a cult.   


   


Posted: 03 August 2014 05:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Mark D Larsen
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Mormonism is unquestionably a cult according to the checklist from the International Cultic Studies Society that "Suspicious Minds" quoted above.
 
The only item that one might question is the third, "Mind-altering practices," but I am of the opinion that Fast and Testimony Meetings certainly match its subsequent description.


   


            
 
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