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Book Release on Mormon Mind Control At Last!
Posted: 21 July 2014 11:52 PM [ Ignore ]
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lunaverse
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Ok I have been in here trumpeting this book for awhile now, and the big day is finally here.
Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control is finally available to buy. Both print and Kindle editions are on Amazon. The print version is even on sale, bless Amazon's dear little heart. If you buy the print version, you can add the ebook on for just a dollar.
In case you don't know what it's all about, I've collected research by social psychologists and cult exit counselors all into one place. I describe 31 mind control techniques and then show quotes from official LDS leaders, manuals, scriptures, exmormon exit stories, and other sources, revealing just how those techniques are used in the Mormon context. All of this is given with a basic background in the science of how we believe what we do, and under what conditions we will and will not change our minds.
The primary goal is to help exmormons like you recover. I personally found healing by reading up on these topics, so I decided to consolidate it into one book. I'm also hoping to reach the general public and help everyone defend against all sources of coercive persuasion.
If you're planning to buy, today (July 22nd) is the best day to do so. Because, not only does Amazon have it on sale, but the more sales that go through on the same day (same week helps a little, too), the higher the rank, and Amazon will show the book to more people. That will give exposure to people who don't normally visit sites like this.
So if you're also planning to buy an extra copy to slip into your TBM brother-in-law's bathroom, might as well grab both copies now. ;)
Here is the link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1489595937/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1489595937&linkCode=as2&tag=lunalind-20&linkId=THMFPMWOOATELQIY
It also helps a great deal if, after you read it, you leave an honest rating and review. Even critical reviews are helpful. Amazon is all about the numbers.
Please feel free to ask me any questions in this thread.
Thanks so much!
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If wickedness never was happiness, then why am I so happy?
Author of Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control
Site: http://www.recoveringagency.com
Old Site: http://www.rationalrevelation.com/
Regular Blog: http://www.lunalindsey.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/lunalindsey
Posted: 22 July 2014 07:35 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
SuziQ
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I ordered the Kindle version this morning and have already started reading. After 5 years out of the church I am well along in the healing process, but I have family members who are just beginning the painful road to freedom. I'm looking forward to reading more of your book. Thanks.
Posted: 22 July 2014 07:48 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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lunaverse
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Thanks, SuziQ! :D
I didn't start reading about mind control until I'd been out about 4 years. I thought I was all done with everything and then discovered I still had lots of traps installed in my brain. Getting rid of them was as easy as learning they were there. I hope it helps you and your family!
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If wickedness never was happiness, then why am I so happy?
Author of Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control
Site: http://www.recoveringagency.com
Old Site: http://www.rationalrevelation.com/
Regular Blog: http://www.lunalindsey.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/lunalindsey
Posted: 22 July 2014 10:05 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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Just ordered a hard copy of your book from Amazon. Can't wait to read it!!!
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“Blessed are the cracked, for they are the ones who let in the light.”
Posted: 22 July 2014 10:10 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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lunaverse
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Thanks, Strong & Free!
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If wickedness never was happiness, then why am I so happy?
Author of Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control
Site: http://www.recoveringagency.com
Old Site: http://www.rationalrevelation.com/
Regular Blog: http://www.lunalindsey.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/lunalindsey
Posted: 22 July 2014 10:22 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
Ninon de Lenclos
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Hi, Luna:
Very serious question...
When is the cut-off time for "July 22"? We have several time zones in the U.S., and I need to know this information for the Pacific time zone.
My partner is a book dealer, and Amazon (one of many book business accounts) is permanently logged in under his book business. I don't know his passwords, and I don't want to mess up his business accounts (some of them are very easy to mess up for various reasons). I won't be able to get him here at the computer, to put in the order for me, until after about 9:30 PM PDT tonight.
Will this meet the "July 22nd" deadline wherever Amazon ends THEIR business day?
Thanks for writing this book...it was VERY much needed!!!
All my best to you,
Ninon
Posted: 22 July 2014 10:24 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
Celestial Wedgie
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Congratulations on this day, Lunaverse. I know this has been a long-term project requiring conviction and devotion. This is one of those moments when a person ought to stop, look back, take a deep breath, and proudly tell herself, "There, I did it!"
Posted: 22 July 2014 10:34 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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lunaverse
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Ninon, the ways of Amazon are very mysterious. I'm not really sure. I've been operating on Pacific time (started everything at midnight) since I know they most likely use an US timestamp of some sort and it would be 3am on the East coast. Amazon corporate is based in Seattle, so it might be Pacific.
I wouldn't worry about it too much. They also track trends, the smooth curves up and down. I don't think the ranking cuts off at the end of the day, but the more in a short time period the better. (People write many blog posts speculating on how it all works.)
I'm already #1 in the narrow category "Kindle Religious Studies > Psychology", beating out Sam Harris's End of Faith, so that's good at least! :)
Celestial, thank you! After hyperfocusing on this for so long it's really hard to just stop and smell the roses. I've been checking my stats, replying to tweets, replying to facebook posts, in a continuous cycle all day. A writer is never satisfied, and the work feels never done, so thank you for the reminder.
So far I've sold about 25 copies, which, for an indie writer, is pretty awesome. I get the feeling this will be a slow, word of mouth seller, as more people read it. If it helps people, they will pass it on. I've already gotten one 5 star review (from someone I don't know even!) and some retweets by people with lots of followers. So fingers crossed!
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If wickedness never was happiness, then why am I so happy?
Author of Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control
Site: http://www.recoveringagency.com
Old Site: http://www.rationalrevelation.com/
Regular Blog: http://www.lunalindsey.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/lunalindsey
Posted: 22 July 2014 10:35 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
Ninon de Lenclos
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Celestial Wedgie:
Congratulations on this day, Lunaverse. I know this has been a long-term project requiring conviction and devotion. This is one of those moments when a person ought to stop, look back, take a deep breath, and proudly tell herself, "There, I did it!"
A very hearty Hear! Hear! to Luna!
Posted: 22 July 2014 10:37 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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lunaverse
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Ninon de Lenclos:
A very hearty Hear! Hear! to Luna!
*blush* thanks!
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If wickedness never was happiness, then why am I so happy?
Author of Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control
Site: http://www.recoveringagency.com
Old Site: http://www.rationalrevelation.com/
Regular Blog: http://www.lunalindsey.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/lunalindsey
Posted: 23 July 2014 06:55 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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How many books sold today Luna? It would surely be nice if you and your book would be featured on CNN or other or maybe on the Bill Maher show. I wonder what would happen if you mailed Bill a copy?
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“Blessed are the cracked, for they are the ones who let in the light.”
Posted: 23 July 2014 08:37 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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lunaverse
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Thanks for asking! :)
I sold 55 copies (mostly Kindle) in the first day, and about .. I dunno around 10 today (mostly print). That was enough to get me into the Amazon #1 seller in a couple of "Religious Studies > Psychology" subcategories. It got up to around #8,000 in the Kindle store overall and around #10,000 in "All books" which includes print. I'm currently sitting at #9 in the LDS category of the Kindle store.
Thanks for everyone who purchased right away because it helped push my rank up so high, which the Amazon Algorythm Gods smile kindly upon. :)
It will trail off for awhile until I can get some guest blog posts and and reviews in newspapers, which I'm working on drumming up right now. I'm also trying to get some radio interviews. I'm working with a publicist and if she comes thru it will happen. Nothing as big as Bill Maher. :) I'd settle for a chance to guest post on a few Patheos blogs, and some nice reviews in rags throughout the Corridor and maybe a couple of radio shows.
(As an aside, I thought about mailing a copy to Glenn Beck in the hopes he would generate some controversy, but then I realized he'd just use it as a how-to guide.)
I'm starting to hear from a few people who are reading it that it's mind-blowing. If that's true, and they're not just trying to make me feel good, then that means this is the type of book that will slowly spread by word of mouth.
So if you like it, just keep telling people. Put an honest review on Amazon and/or GoodReads. Talk about it on social media and other exLDS forums that I don't frequent as much. (PostMo is my home forum.) Every little bit helps. :)
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If wickedness never was happiness, then why am I so happy?
Author of Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control
Site: http://www.recoveringagency.com
Old Site: http://www.rationalrevelation.com/
Regular Blog: http://www.lunalindsey.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/lunalindsey
Posted: 25 July 2014 12:02 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
girya
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I ordered my copy from Amazon yesterday.
Can't wait to read it!!!
Posted: 25 July 2014 12:59 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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lunaverse
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Yay, thanks!
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If wickedness never was happiness, then why am I so happy?
Author of Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control
Site: http://www.recoveringagency.com
Old Site: http://www.rationalrevelation.com/
Regular Blog: http://www.lunalindsey.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/lunalindsey
Posted: 26 July 2014 10:12 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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lunaverse:
Yay, thanks!
I received my copy from Amazon! The cover is very attractive and eye-catching. I will post some of what speaks to me as I have time to read it. You must be so excited Luna! It is such a great feeling to know you are making the world a better place.
Edit: The cover is even brighter and nicer than it looks in the photo.
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“Blessed are the cracked, for they are the ones who let in the light.”
Posted: 28 July 2014 10:04 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
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lunaverse
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Yay! I am excited. :)
On the cover, I realized a little too late that the brightness on my monitor is probably a little too high. Last minute I had to mess with the image colors on the cover because my original proofs were pretty dark. This is where I probably should have hired a graphics professional to at least do the last minute touch-ups. :) If I get time and inclination at some point I will revisit all my cover graphics.
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If wickedness never was happiness, then why am I so happy?
Author of Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control
Site: http://www.recoveringagency.com
Old Site: http://www.rationalrevelation.com/
Regular Blog: http://www.lunalindsey.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/lunalindsey
Posted: 28 July 2014 12:57 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
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Ex_aedibus
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I'll have to check it out. When you are raised in Mormonism, it does an awful to shape your character and habits. Breaking free of those is sometimes hard. Congratulations!
Posted: 28 July 2014 01:22 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 17 ]
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lunaverse
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Thanks! :)
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If wickedness never was happiness, then why am I so happy?
Author of Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control
Site: http://www.recoveringagency.com
Old Site: http://www.rationalrevelation.com/
Regular Blog: http://www.lunalindsey.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/lunalindsey
Posted: 28 July 2014 07:35 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 18 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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lunaverse:
Yay! I am excited. :)
On the cover, I realized a little too late that the brightness on my monitor is probably a little too high. Last minute I had to mess with the image colors on the cover because my original proofs were pretty dark. This is where I probably should have hired a graphics professional to at least do the last minute touch-ups. :) If I get time and inclination at some point I will revisit all my cover graphics.
I am just starting to read your book, Luna, and marking things I want to find again. I will post more about what jumps out at me latter. I love the cover! I would think that to have a cover that will catch the eye in a book store is a good thing. First they spot it and then see the title and there you go!
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“Blessed are the cracked, for they are the ones who let in the light.”
Posted: 29 July 2014 04:32 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 19 ]
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Dogzilla Joy
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Kindle edition purchased!
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Formerly known as “Dogzilla.”
Posted: 01 August 2014 10:54 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 20 ]
girya
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Progress report:
I received my copy from Amazon...and I'm loving this amazing book!
Thank you for writing this, luna!!
Posted: 01 August 2014 11:10 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 21 ]
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lunaverse
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Aw, thanks Girya! And Strong'n'Free and Dogzilla. :)
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If wickedness never was happiness, then why am I so happy?
Author of Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control
Site: http://www.recoveringagency.com
Old Site: http://www.rationalrevelation.com/
Regular Blog: http://www.lunalindsey.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/lunalindsey
Posted: 01 August 2014 06:24 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 22 ]
Free2Live
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Hey! I haven't received my copy yet!
lol Ok I just ordered it less than an hour ago. I will wait.
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars time talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.
Posted: 01 August 2014 06:42 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 23 ]
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Old Kinderhooker
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I just ordered my hardcopy on amazon this evening. I look forward to Reading the whole thing.
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I say unto you who are not yet free, Remember the power of “No”, for this word alone will keep you free from Morg mind control.
Posted: 02 August 2014 09:39 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 24 ]
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son of perdition
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Congratulations on your new book Luna. I got mine in mail yesterday. Can't wait to read it.
Posted: 02 August 2014 12:50 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 25 ]
middlemarie
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just purchased it on Kobo up in Canada! I've never been a Mormon but am fascinated.
Posted: 02 August 2014 02:37 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 26 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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I am loving your book Luna! I am marking a lot of text. I have felt a little down over how easily we humans can be manipulated. However, we have to know these things so we can protect ourselves. Knowledge is the power to be free. Thank you so much for all the hard work that went into this book! I have added reading your book to my will for my children. Kay Burningham's is another that is on this list. I very much hope this book becomes a best seller. Not only would that be good for you but good for the world.
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“Blessed are the cracked, for they are the ones who let in the light.”
Posted: 02 August 2014 02:56 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 27 ]
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lunaverse
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omigosh, thanks everyone. :D
Word is getting out slowly right now. I did a big self-promotion push over the last couple of weeks, but that's winding down now. Now it's all about word of mouth.
If you're interested in getting the word out that this book exists, please consider leaving an honest review on Amazon, GoodReads, and where ever else. All reviews (even critical ones) lend credibility to and helps other people find it. And if you have a blog or social networks, consider reviewing it there or talking about your own thoughts it inspired.
And I'm willing to speak, or write guest blog posts, or do podcast and radio interviews. I've reached out to various places, but I'm just an author tooting my own horn and they hear from (and ignore) lots of people like me.
When it comes to defense against mind control, knowing the techniques is half the battle. The other half is actively building cognitions that make open-mindedness and changing your mind more comfortable (less dissonant). I've considered a sequel, less tearing down and more building up (and less focused on Mormonism), in which I share all the cognitions I've created to help lead my mind towards more open thinking, correct conclusions, and self-actualization.. i.e. the opposite of mind control. I've already started taking notes. :)
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If wickedness never was happiness, then why am I so happy?
Author of Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control
Site: http://www.recoveringagency.com
Old Site: http://www.rationalrevelation.com/
Regular Blog: http://www.lunalindsey.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/lunalindsey
Posted: 02 August 2014 05:49 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 28 ]
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Suspicious Minds
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There are so many good books from Exmo and non-exmo authors to choose from on the subject of mind control. Putting it into the context of Mormonism is exactly what my friend Lyndon has done with his book called Standing for Something More.
http://www.amazon.com/Standing-For-Something-More-Excommunication/dp/1438947437
Also, if you haven't already done so, I'd strongly recommend the book from author Stephen Hassan called Combatting Cult Mind Control.
http://www.amazon.com/Combatting-Cult-Mind-Control-Best-selling/dp/0892813113
Both of these are excellent resources that will also help you in your transition. Congrats on your book Luna and hope you have a best seller!
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“We discover in ourselves what others hide from us and we recognize in others what we hide from ourselves.” Vauvenargues (1715 - 1747)
Posted: 02 August 2014 06:17 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 29 ]
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lunaverse
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I'm reading Lamborne's book right now. Almost done. Pretty good, but it glosses over the mind control techniques pretty quickly and doesn't get into detail about how they work. It's not as comprehensive as I'd like.
I didn't read Combatting Cult Mind Control, but I did read Hassan's later book, Releasing the Bonds. Honestly, I preferred Captive Hearts, Captive Minds by Tobias and Lalich (which may now be out of print) and also Recovery From Cults, a collection of essays and papers by Michael Langone. The former is the most accessible and covers the most about recovery and emotional issues, and the latter is more academic and covers a wide range of related topics.
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If wickedness never was happiness, then why am I so happy?
Author of Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control
Site: http://www.recoveringagency.com
Old Site: http://www.rationalrevelation.com/
Regular Blog: http://www.lunalindsey.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/lunalindsey
Posted: 10 August 2014 06:52 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 30 ]
Free2Live
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I have received it. For this purpose I have come to postmo to visit through the internet. The forward is great. In the near future I am quite certain that I will be able to talk about that 3rd audience, to TBMs - most likely family, as this book becomes a matter of conversation. hehee Thanks for your hard work in authorship Luna.
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars time talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.
Posted: 12 August 2014 10:18 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 31 ]
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lunaverse
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Free2, let me know if any of it manages to reach your family, should you decide to broach the subject.
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If wickedness never was happiness, then why am I so happy?
Author of Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control
Site: http://www.recoveringagency.com
Old Site: http://www.rationalrevelation.com/
Regular Blog: http://www.lunalindsey.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/lunalindsey
Posted: 12 August 2014 06:18 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 32 ]
Free2Live
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lunaverse:
Free2, let me know if any of it manages to reach your family, should you decide to broach the subject.
I shall give it a try. The proverbial elephant is no longer in its hidden pen here already. For an example of the groundwork, here is a little of my latest dealings with a tbm brother who is a previous bishop. He sent to me a few texts trying to verify my free time as in days off from work. When he knew I had last Friday off he texted if I would be interested in going to the Ogden temple dedication if he could get tickets. My response was a question of this being a "special" trip for the both of us or if he was already planning on going on said roadtrip. After he replied an honest reply that it would be a special trip for us I returned a suggestion to take our mother because she would love such a trip. Last year I had driven my mother and an inlaw to the Ogden area for other things but ended up driving around the reconstruction site for her to oogle and awe over. lol. He didn't have much response then as his next text was a single letter...k. So then this is my response to his offer :
Brother. You came over (to my house) to ask questions and I unloaded the full overview. The church corporation is a hoax. I don't know what else to tell you. It is all man made and built upon illusion and sealed by delusion. Luv ya bro.That's the way it is.
Reply : Love you too! ... end of "con"text-ual conversation.
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars time talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.
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Watched Dateline's Warren Jeff's episode with a Mormon, who told me she didn't want to ID herself as Mormon anymore after that. lol
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http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/39816/
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So ashamed and embarassed I was ever a part of this crap
Posted: 10 August 2014 08:43 AM [ Ignore ]
Nephi
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http://www.latterdayexpo.com/
L-d$,inc and the businesses that spring up associated with it to market to gullible fools. Yep, I was one of them. I am so ashamed and embarassed I was taken in and even pushed this crap.
Many I have met don't believe but stay in. They know it is a lie but push it on others, especially their family members. Wife, Husband, kids, cousins, relatives one and all.
Being honest means being so to yourself. How can someone be honest while supporting what they know to be a lie?
Worse yet are those who push the lies to make money off the gullible fools who buy this junk for their walls and homes and clothing. They truly believe Money is Mormonism and glory attaches to those who have more of it.
I see this expo for the gullible is being held in Sandy, Utah - the home of Marin County wannabees and Prozac/Valium central in the USA. A perfect place for people living a lie to market it to others.
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Posted: 10 August 2014 08:51 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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You can buy anything in this world for money!
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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
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Posted: 10 August 2014 09:40 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Kori
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Matter Unorganized:
You can buy anything in this world for money!
You can even buy an "Endowment" so you can screw other men's wives and teenage daughters. Todd Compton wrote much about the most well documented victims of Joseph's Myth.
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“Not sure about a higher power but I definitely believe in re-sizing my images to not be so freaking wide.” Dark Chocolate
Posted: 10 August 2014 11:35 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Ex_aedibus
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Nephi:
http://www.latterdayexpo.com/
L-d$,inc and the businesses that spring up associated with it to market to gullible fools. Yep, I was one of them. I am so ashamed and embarassed I was taken in and even pushed this crap.
I am amazed to the degree to which Mormons still fall prety to all sorts of scams. Someone I know, despite all my dire warnings to the contrary, joined the Mormon church. She has since fallen into some multi-level marketing scam called LIFE Leadership. One of its leaders is a man named Orrin Woodward.
I hate to see this, as she is a single mom and can't afford to be foolish with her money.
As for feeling guilty, I suppose there are things in Mormonism that we all did that we all feel guilty about. But what is most is important is that you woke up and walked away!
Posted: 10 August 2014 12:10 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
Ninon de Lenclos
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Ex_aedibus:
.........But what is most is important is that you woke up and walked away!
I agree...totally and completely!!!
‹‹ Watched Dateline’s Warren Jeff’s episode with a Mormon, who told me she didn’t want to ID herself as Mormon anymore after that. lol Salt Lake Tribune has an actual POLYGAMY newspaper section? ››
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Kori
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Mothers and SEX!!?
by thalmar
Questions for missionaries (or any other Mormons)
by Kori
please help
by Celestial Wedgie
Caffeine reduces Tinnitus, another WOW bust....
by Celestial Wedgie
St. Joe Company?
by Heretic
Still changing....
by Inexile
Resignation and Family Records
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who the Gentiles really were...
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CES Letter rebuttal updated
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PoMo dating preferences
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Un-ringing the bell
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Book Release on Mormon Mind Control At Last!
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Kate Kelly's appeal
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Mormons worship Min, the phallic God of Egypt - Video of Mormon Missionary confrontation
by Tessa
BYU-I Prof of Religion resigns
by WinstonSmith
Help setting boundaries and a lot of venting
by Curious NeverMo
Watched Dateline's Warren Jeff's episode with a Mormon, who told me she didn't want to ID herself as Mormon anymore after that. lol
by Strong Free & Thankful
The Misattributed Cycle of Victory over Self-Abuse! - What is your Gap of Onan?
by Ex_aedibus
Mormon Infographics strikes again
by Old Kinderhooker
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/39943/
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2014 Conference
"Chrysalis"
Oct. 9 - 12
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
Financial Report for 2009
Twin Falls Newspaper Article
Twin Falls Billboard
Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
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Lets go to the Fort together and see a famous Native American Exhibit 7/12 11 AM
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The Mormon Mask
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Watched Dateline’s Warren Jeff’s episode with a Mormon, who told me she didn’t want to ID herself as Mormon anymore after that. lol
Posted: 10 August 2014 08:12 AM [ Ignore ]
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Kori
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Great show, here, by Dateline I watched with a Mormon friend of mine.
After wards she said, "I don't want to identify myself as Mormon any more after watching that!"
Wow.
That was easy.
Haha
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“Not sure about a higher power but I definitely believe in re-sizing my images to not be so freaking wide.” Dark Chocolate
Posted: 10 August 2014 08:33 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Ex_aedibus
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Most Mormons deplore the situation in Colorado City. However, I don't think that most appreciate the fact that they're ones who are authentically living out Mormonism as it developed in the Utah period. So many of the doctrines and practices of the Brigham Young era, as revolting as they are, are still practiced among the FLDS and other polygamists.
Of course, most Mormons don't fully recognise the degree to which Joseph Smith was a sexual predator.
Posted: 10 August 2014 10:36 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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Ex_aedibus:
Most Mormons deplore the situation in Colorado City. However, I don't think that most appreciate the fact that they're ones who are authentically living out Mormonism as it developed in the Utah period. So many of the doctrines and practices of the Brigham Young era, as revolting as they are, are still practiced among the FLDS and other polygamists.
Of course, most Mormons don't fully recognise the degree to which Joseph Smith was a sexual predator.
It seems to me that Warren Jeffs is a huge foot in the door for us with our TBM families and others. All we need is to be armed with the facts--those facts on Joseph Smith can all be found in verifiable church history writings and the journals of the faithful. It is easy to prove that Joseph Smith had exactly the same character as Warren Jeffs; married young girls, other men's wives, sacrificed animals, made lots of prophecy that never came true, talked people out of their money, was a huge liar, had no honor or integrity--shown by his actions. What is the difference between the two??? If anyone can point these out, I would like them. If JS had lived a few years longer, he would have beat Warren Jeffs record of how man teenagers they married. Why do TBMs call Warren Jeffs dispicable and Joseph Smith a profit of god? Is it really OK for god to give a stamp of approval to Joseph Smith's behavior but not Warren Jeff's? Is not sick--sick--no matter who is doing it? I feel this is a great tool for showing up the truth. I will bet you--the guys at the COB are very scared of the comparison of these two.
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Posted: 10 August 2014 06:45 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
Celestial Wedgie
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Kori, cool how that happened. The Mormon you were with had a healthy response, at least as I interpret it.
I thought the show was good and conveyed how much polygamy was a genuine product of old-time Mormonism.
Posted: 11 August 2014 02:42 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Bold Wish
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Strong Free & Thankful:
Why do TBMs call Warren Jeffs dispicable and Joseph Smith a profit of god? Is it really OK for god to give a stamp of approval to Joseph Smith's behavior but not Warren Jeff's? Is not sick--sick--no matter who is doing it? I feel this is a great tool for showing up the truth. I will bet you--the guys at the COB are very scared of the comparison of these two.
TBM's, for the most part, are 100% clueless. They have no idea that JS actually did the things he did. This also means they cannot see what's really going on with D&C 132 - without the facts, they're more eager to accept added nonsense to a pot already full of it.
Someone published a comparison of WJ & JS.
Hopefully someone will create a professionally crafted documentary and the truth about JS preying on a 14 year old, 16 year olds, and women already married will be in the spotlight. Then the question "Why does this religious organization claim this man was next to Cheezes in righteousness?"
If the organization, the Q15 claim to have the entire truth, then share it with the world.
The documentary should also include the racist comments from BY and then ask the question "So why does the organization name their university after this man?"
And so forth, and so on.
The documentary would cost a lot of money but I'd be first in line to donate my time, talents, and everything I have to promote the truth. I can't imagine the artifact could be accomplished in less than three hours so it would be a series of documentaries. The final segment showcasing what's happening today would show the current deceitful messages the organization still uses to control members and "investigators."
The financial part of the documentary would also be mind-boggling: the organization is actually a gigantic financial corporation that's just using the old, worn out religious facade to maintain their tax exemp / higher profit status.
Yes, there's a phenomenal opportunity for someone to get a gigantic response if they perform the documentary well enough and choose not to sugar coat or diminish the facts. TBM's would be TOTALLY OUTRAGED but there is zero they could do because everything - all of it - would be factual. A well prepared documentary would be the equivavlent of dropping tons of feces into an enormous fan that splattered shit all over every nook and cranny of the organization and would forever show the world what a pathetic and total scam the organization really is.
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There is almost no limit to how bad the church will make you their bitch.
Posted: 11 August 2014 06:34 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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Although the PBS documentary of a few years ago was a major WTF moment for some people and actually led to some leaving the church, in my view it was far too kind to the church. A documentary such as this would have to be on a major network, be it over the air or cable. It couldn't be on some obscure cable channel.
Furthermore, TSCC announced prior to the PBS doc being shown that it was a mostly fair representation. Believing members would expect a similar endorsement from their leaders for any subsequent documentary/exposé. It's a bit of a catch-22 in that if no current members or even leaders are interviewed, it will be dismissed as one-sided, but if current leaders are interviewed and the questions raised are hard-hitting and embarassing, leadership will announce in advance that members are not to watch it. We know what TBMs are like (because most of us were just that at one time) and they will not watch, because "the prophet said so."
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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler
Posted: 11 August 2014 08:14 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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That is EXACTLY what we need--Bold Wish and Matter Unorganized--a documentary of real facts of the past, present and how this long-lasting train of lies has had a disastrous affect on millions of lives. I will keep in mind your generous offer, Bold Wish to pass along.
When I feel the time is right--maybe after he finishes his current doc--I will ask my French Dr. friend if he might be interested. He is also an American attorney--which could not hurt. (Dual citizenship.) I don't know if he will be interested but he is forward-thinking and I could see that he had the real facts. Its worth a shot.
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“Blessed are the cracked, for they are the ones who let in the light.”
Posted: 11 August 2014 01:16 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Bold Wish
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Strong Free & Thankful:
That is EXACTLY what we need--Bold Wish and Matter Unorganized--a documentary of real facts of the past, present and how this long-lasting train of lies has had a disastrous affect on millions of lives. I will keep in mind your generous offer, Bold Wish to pass along.
When I feel the time is right--maybe after he finishes his current doc--I will ask my French Dr. friend if he might be interested. He is also an American attorney--which could not hurt. (Dual citizenship.) I don't know if he will be interested but he is forward-thinking and I could see that he had the real facts. Its worth a shot.
Not to threadjack but just a side note: my son owns a video production company in NYC and if the funding was remotely feasible, I think he would do it in a heartbeat. And just to let you know, he's not some kid playing around with youtube videos - he's done some amazing work for several famous people and organizations.
The research, story, travelling, filming, editing and promotion would involve some serious time & $ - resources someone would help provide if they believed the light at the end of the tunnel.
It's weird being so old I have a 30 year old son but we did start early - as we were told.
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Lloyd Dobler:
There is almost no limit to how bad the church will make you their bitch.
Posted: 11 August 2014 08:03 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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Bold Wish:
Strong Free & Thankful:
That is EXACTLY what we need--Bold Wish and Matter Unorganized--a documentary of real facts of the past, present and how this long-lasting train of lies has had a disastrous affect on millions of lives. I will keep in mind your generous offer, Bold Wish to pass along.
When I feel the time is right--maybe after he finishes his current doc--I will ask my French Dr. friend if he might be interested. He is also an American attorney--which could not hurt. (Dual citizenship.) I don't know if he will be interested but he is forward-thinking and I could see that he had the real facts. Its worth a shot.
Not to threadjack but just a side note: my son owns a video production company in NYC and if the funding was remotely feasible, I think he would do it in a heartbeat. And just to let you know, he's not some kid playing around with youtube videos - he's done some amazing work for several famous people and organizations.
The research, story, travelling, filming, editing and promotion would involve some serious time & $ - resources someone would help provide if they believed the light at the end of the tunnel.
It's weird being so old I have a 30 year old son but we did start early - as we were told.
How much do you think it would take? I wonder how much we could raise if we looked at the project kind of long-term. What if we sold a product--like the T-shirts you designed and let the world know where the proceeds were going? Free publicity and maybe a few news stories to boot! You can raise a lot of money--a few dollars here and there. Politicians do it all the time. Of course, we would have to have enough money to do it right. One important project! Sooner or later, someone will make this documentary. If we can make it happen sooner--we might free some stolen lives.
Edited to Add: This has nothing to do with the thread and did not want to make a post of it, but I just watched Billy Joel singing "Uptown Girl" to his ex-wife--Christy Brinkley. It was beautiful and magic--that exes can still love and respect each other like that. Just thought maybe someone on here might want to watch it and it might make them smile! I wish all of us could have had love instead of religion. Love is all we ever needed.
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“Blessed are the cracked, for they are the ones who let in the light.”
Posted: 12 August 2014 09:00 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Kori
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Bold Wish:
Strong Free & Thankful:
Why do TBMs call Warren Jeffs dispicable and Joseph Smith a profit of god? Is it really OK for god to give a stamp of approval to Joseph Smith's behavior but not Warren Jeff's? Is not sick--sick--no matter who is doing it? I feel this is a great tool for showing up the truth. I will bet you--the guys at the COB are very scared of the comparison of these two.
TBM's, for the most part, are 100% clueless. They have no idea that JS actually did the things he did. This also means they cannot see what's really going on with D&C 132 - without the facts, they're more eager to accept added nonsense to a pot already full of it.
Someone published a comparison of WJ & JS.
Mormon Infographics to the rescue!!!
I like the little box under "Other Men's Wives" ^^^ that says "Adultery" per D&C 132:61
But it should say, "According to the LAW of the Priesthood."
A good question to ask Mormons anywhere, any time is, "Do you believe in the LAW of the Priesthood?"
99.9% of them will have no clue what you're talking about.
The other .1% will lie in order to protect their "PRofit" who's praises they've been brainwashed to sing, in the face of any and all opposition.
Joseph Smith: Praise to the Man!
Reason, history, facts, evidence, all count as 'opposition' to Mormons.
Like Mormons always say, "Whenever you kick Mormonism, you kick it upstairs."
When the boys from South Park do a parody of The Book of Mormon, it takes Broadway and the world by storm, what does the Mormon church do?
They buy a 2 page spread advertising the Mormon church in every playbill across the country. What would Muslims do if the South Park Boys did, "The Q'uran on Broadway"
H
opefully someone will create a professionally crafted documentary and the truth about JS preying on a 14 year old, 16 year olds, and women already married will be in the spotlight. Then the question "Why does this religious organization claim this man was next to Cheezes in righteousness?"
If the organization, the Q15 claim to have the entire truth, then share it with the world.
The documentary should also include the racist comments from BY and then ask the question "So why does the organization name their university after this man?"
And so forth, and so on.
The documentary would cost a lot of money but I'd be first in line to donate my time, talents, and everything I have to promote the truth. I can't imagine the artifact could be accomplished in less than three hours so it would be a series of documentaries. The final segment showcasing what's happening today would show the current deceitful messages the organization still uses to control members and "investigators."
The financial part of the documentary would also be mind-boggling: the organization is actually a gigantic financial corporation that's just using the old, worn out religious facade to maintain their tax exemp / higher profit status.
Yes, there's a phenomenal opportunity for someone to get a gigantic response if they perform the documentary well enough and choose not to sugar coat or diminish the facts. TBM's would be TOTALLY OUTRAGED but there is zero they could do because everything - all of it - would be factual. A well prepared documentary would be the equivavlent of dropping tons of feces into an enormous fan that splattered shit all over every nook and cranny of the organization and would forever show the world what a pathetic and total scam the organization really is.
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“Not sure about a higher power but I definitely believe in re-sizing my images to not be so freaking wide.” Dark Chocolate
Posted: 12 August 2014 09:49 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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Thanks Kori! I remembered it was you who had posted this great chart. I have not been able to copy it as half of it cuts off. I think I downloaded it at one time from the authors. Yes, we really, really need this doc. In reading Luna's book on mind control, she tells of how one religious group--when their stated doomsday arrived and nothing happened--they became so rabid in their preaching that they were highly successful in conversions. It might have been in Holland. They ended up converting a large portion of the nation. When people have a lot of other people believing the same thing--no matter how crazy--they are able to keep believing. What I am getting at is when the knowledge is mainstream that Joseph Smith was almost the same person as Warren Jeffs and Brigham Young was also a major sicko--it will be much more difficult for TBMs to hide in their head from the truth. When we have that documentary and TBM's friends are asking them why they are teaching their children child molestors, liars and murderers are prophets of god--the TBM's excuse of it being "anti mormon lies" will no longer fly. I am thinking many eyes will open.
With all the talented people on here who are willing to give whatever is needed of their skills, knowledge, and time--it will be one awesome documentary and perhaps a gold standard of spreading the truth--kind of like Jeremy's CES letter. All we have to figure out is how to get the money and who will take on the job of coordinating it all. I would love to do it--but I don't have the time to spare at the moment and of course we need someone who has made a documentary before. I don't see what would stop us from beginning to gather the money. I wonder if we would need a foundation that is already set up and is bonded to act as treasurer? The only thing that I know that I could really do is ask my friend who is making the documentary right now if he might be interested in making this one later. I am certain we have lots of choices, perhaps Bold Wish's son. Sounds like we need to figure out how to get the money and who is going to be responsible for the safe-keeping of the money.
Edited to Add: I would not mind being on a board to help brainstorm and make decisions about this documentary. I would take the time for that.
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BYU-I Prof of Religion resigns
Posted: 10 August 2014 09:39 AM [ Ignore ]
Curious NeverMo
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Apparently, Kirk Caudle's own personal beliefs in the corporate church weren't welcome and so he resigned from the university and the church. He says he remains, however, "Mormon", a believer in the BOM and in Christ.
Posted: 10 August 2014 10:59 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Poor dude thinks he can have his cake and eat it too. I hate to break it to him, but the mormon cake is made of shit.
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Posted: 10 August 2014 11:11 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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This guy sounds like John Dehlin. I just cannot understand Mormons who believe that they have the truth, but the prophet and apostles and all the other members do not. People like this believe in a sort of liberal God who doesn't care much about what form the worship of Him takes. In my mind that is just a step away from deciding that God or the gods do not care if you are a Christian, and two steps away from deciding that there is no evidence that gods exist and that you should just live your life according to morality instead of religion.
Posted: 10 August 2014 11:28 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Heretic:
This guy sounds like John Dehlin. I just cannot understand Mormons who believe that they have the truth, but the prophet and apostles and all the other members do not. People like this believe in a sort of liberal God who doesn't care much about what form the worship of Him takes. In my mind that is just a step away from deciding that God or the gods do not care if you are a Christian, and two steps away from deciding that there is no evidence that gods exist and that you should just live your life according to morality instead of religion.
I can't wait to see how people like this are going to act when the Islamic State has a black flag flying over the white house.
The answer to Religious Extremism isn't more religious extremism, it's more reason, logic, what works?
What happens when you have a pesky ant invasion?
You shut the mother f'ckers down!
You're not Mahatmah f'ing Gandhi at that moment, you're Einstein, who said, "Nuke the F'ckers before they nuke you!"
He was right then and he'd be right now.
Get it over with.
WTF is with this 14 year long war that accomplishes jack shit?
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“Not sure about a higher power but I definitely believe in re-sizing my images to not be so freaking wide.” Dark Chocolate
Posted: 10 August 2014 12:05 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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There is not going to be an Islamic black flag flying over the White House. Americans are vicious and ruthless fighters once aroused. In fact, sometimes they are so eager for battle that they attack the wrong country and fight the wrong war and only create more enemies. In World War II, the Axis never really had a chance of conquering America. Broad oceans defended it. These oceans were full of American warships, and the skies above were full of warplanes. On the shores awaited hordes of American infantry and armor. And beyond that there lay a populous nation full of well-armed civilian gun enthusiasts.
During the Cold War, there was practically no chance that the Communists would conquer the United States in a conventional war. The same issues as World War II, plus a large conventional war would be likely to escalate into a nuclear conflict, in which case neither side would have the strength left to conquer the other. (Chances are that neither side would have the strength left to keep their government running and maintain order.)
Bush the Lesser's "War on Terra" under the continuing management of Obama the Warmonger is not like these other two wars. America has drones, cruise missiles, stealth bombers, some of the best tanks in the world, and nukes, both tactical and strategic. And what do the Islamists have? Boxcutters, explosive suicide vests, improvised explosive devices, RPG's, and AK47's. Explain to me again: how are they going to raise their flag over the Whitehouse?
Posted: 10 August 2014 01:14 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Curious NeverMo:
Apparently, Kirk Caudle's own personal beliefs in the corporate church weren't welcome and so he resigned from the university and the church. He says he remains, however, "Mormon", a believer in the BOM and in Christ.
ANYWAY, back to the subject of the OP...
I haven't read the link, but I can somewhat relate to Mr. Caudle's position. There was a time, couple of months probably, that during my exit I wanted something of the Mormon church to be true so I could have something in common with 50 years of my past and my TBM spouse at the time.
I knew Monson wasn't a prophet, didn't and hasn't done a damn thing, except pass out cookies to widows and wiggle his ears.
I knew GBHinckley was a liar, which was a huge blow to my testimony..."I don't know that we teach that, I don't know that we emphasize that." I used to love him, and then he lied to me and the whole world. :::mind blowing gesture:::
I kept going back...the rest is history.
I'll go read the link now and see what he has to say.
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Why would you consider a man a prophet whose morals are worse than your own? Having claimed to commune with deity, be visited by angels and receive revelations, should he not be held to a higher standard? —me
Posted: 10 August 2014 02:32 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Kori
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Heretic:
There is not going to be an Islamic black flag flying over the White House. Americans are vicious and ruthless fighters once aroused. In fact, sometimes they are so eager for battle that they attack the wrong country and fight the wrong war and only create more enemies. In World War II, the Axis never really had a chance of conquering America. Broad oceans defended it. These oceans were full of American warships, and the skies above were full of warplanes. On the shores awaited hordes of American infantry and armor. And beyond that there lay a populous nation full of well-armed civilian gun enthusiasts.
During the Cold War, there was practically no chance that the Communists would conquer the United States in a conventional war. The same issues as World War II, plus a large conventional war would be likely to escalate into a nuclear conflict, in which case neither side would have the strength left to conquer the other. (Chances are that neither side would have the strength left to keep their government running and maintain order.)
Bush the Lesser's "War on Terra" under the continuing management of Obama the Warmonger is not like these other two wars. America has drones, cruise missiles, stealth bombers, some of the best tanks in the world, and nukes, both tactical and strategic. And what do the Islamists have? Boxcutters, explosive suicide vests, Improvised explosive devices, RPG's, and AK47's. Explain to me again: how are they going to raise their flag over the Whitehouse?
What makes you believe Iran doesnt have nuclear armed drones that can deliver a Hiroshima size bomb on Tel Aviv?
israel stops 75% of Hamas rockets with its iron dome. Meaning if ISIS flew 100 drones at Israel, 25 would get through.
25 nukes.
Should do it.
How're we going to stop them if we can't stop illegals from coming in?
Whos side Re you on, Israel's or their enemies? Were on both now.
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“Not sure about a higher power but I definitely believe in re-sizing my images to not be so freaking wide.” Dark Chocolate
Posted: 10 August 2014 02:34 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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An excerpt from his comments in the article:
"At its heart, Mormonism is communal. I love that community with all of my heart. I have tried my best to give whatever I had to that community and time and time again I felt rejected by the communal family that I so closely love and cherish."
The problem with this statement is that "Mormonism" is not so much a "community" as it is an authoritarian organization that relies on heavy indoctrination and strict obedience to keep its members in line. If you voice any dissent, expect that your "community" will quickly throw you under the bus.
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“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.”—Heber C Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, Page 32
Posted: 10 August 2014 04:21 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Community v. Communal...
Community sort of, to me, means a bunch of people who want the best for each other.
When I think of communal, I think of a group that'll shut your ass down if you don't go along to get along.
This brother is going to see the difference.
Posted: 10 August 2014 04:38 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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I am on America's side. Israel is evil and oppresses the Palestinians and does not follow international law. The UN resolutions require that Israel give back the occupied territories and remove or abandon their unlawful settlements, and remove all their forces. So I am not on Israel's side. Iran is violating the nuclear non-proliferation rules by trying to build a nuclear weapon. So I am not on Iran's side.
Iran has its own agenda and is not the same as the Islamist terrorists we are chasing in Afghanistan. This is a separate conflict here. Iran is not part of the war in Afghanistan, and is not part of the war in Iraq. (Which is not part of the war in Afghanistan. At least it wasn't until our actions lead terrorist volunteers to travel from their own countries to go help the Iraqi resistance.) The United States needs to help enforce the nuclear non-proliferation policy by preventing Iran from building a nuclear weapon. At this point that would mainly involve toughening UN sanctions.
America does not stop illegal immigration because it does not really want to. A sizable minority of the US electorate feels sorry for the illegals and welcomes them. Now if these were terrorists with guns and bombs rather than hardworking braceros seeking jobs, you can bet we would have border security and precious few illegals would get across the border.
So tell me again: How it is that Islamists are going to capture Washington D.C. and raise their flag over the White House?
I feel sorry for Kirk Caudle losing his job as well as his church community. I admire his strength for getting out of that bad situation. I imagine that critics are going to attack him and use the old line about how he left the church because he was offended by the people. But is that really such a bad excuse? "By their fruits shall ye know them." If the church makes people be bad, is it so wrong to be offended by them and not want to associate with them or the church itself?
Posted: 11 August 2014 10:46 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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Tessa
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He got thrown out because he questioned Brigham Young's "Transfiguration" into Joseph Smith?
Oops...
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 11 August 2014 11:20 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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WinstonSmith
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Quartersawn:
Curious NeverMo:
Apparently, Kirk Caudle's own personal beliefs in the corporate church weren't welcome and so he resigned from the university and the church. He says he remains, however, "Mormon", a believer in the BOM and in Christ.
ANYWAY, back to the subject of the OP...
I haven't read the link, but I can somewhat relate to Mr. Caudle's position. There was a time, couple of months probably, that during my exit I wanted something of the Mormon church to be true so I could have something in common with 50 years of my past and my TBM spouse at the time.
I knew Monson wasn't a prophet, didn't and hasn't done a damn thing, except pass out cookies to widows and wiggle his ears.
I knew GBHinckley was a liar, which was a huge blow to my testimony..."I don't know that we teach that, I don't know that we emphasize that." I used to love him, and then he lied to me and the whole world. :::mind blowing gesture:::
I kept going back...the rest is history.
I'll go read the link now and see what he has to say.
I am going to chime in here...
Some of you may recall that I am also a former BYU-Idaho professor although not a professor of religion. I slipped away quietly from the University without any fanfare---No blogs, no newspaper articles, no facebook. I point this out, because I am not the only one that has quietly left that University because of a 'Faith Transition'.
In retrospect I can see how many of my former fellow faculty members live their life in a constant state of 'cognotive dissonance. Quite sad really---I was one of the fortunate ones that recognized it and got out.
Having now said that Quartersawn makes a great point and I will add another. I was is such disarray after my 'Faith Crissis' hit. It took me a hell of long time to process what was going on (I am still processing). All kinds of defense mechanism came into play---I trusted only one person, who betrayed me. I lacked any critical skills to navigate through what was happening.
Now having had some time pass and having learned some of these critical skills, I would have handled things differently. I suspect in a year or two this BYU-I professor will likely feel the same.
It was a very scary time for me---How many of you reading this think you really understand the anxiety when the career you have invested everything, a career you are very successful, the income to support a family, and the continuous insurance coverage your spouse needs for health problems, will all be taken away when you admit that you have serious doubts about the existance of god.
To make matters even more complicated there is not consistancy in TSCC on how to handle this (e.g. JD and KK). The bishop at the time of my admission to atheism stalled and gave me time to try and work things out (18 months). He was released and the next bishop took it apon himself to 'cleanse the church' and notified the University immediately of my lack of 'testimony' (btw the University was not hasty in dismissing me---they allowed me to seek and find other employment and leave, me giving notice, when I was ready). The bishop where we now reside, probably would have said, we all have doubts, that is life, teach your students good values.
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Posted: 11 August 2014 03:06 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
Curious NeverMo
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So very glad to hear that BYU afforded you enough time to land on your feet. It truly must have been a terrifying time!
I didn't realize that this was happening more frequently without the publicity.
Posted: 11 August 2014 03:48 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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interesting. Forgive me if this is a little off topic or too ad hominem but is he really a professor? Isn't he just an online facilitator?
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Posted: 11 August 2014 05:14 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
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Old Kinderhooker
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Inexile:
interesting. Forgive me if this is a little off topic or too ad hominem but is he really a professor? Isn't he just an online facilitator?
"Online instructor" was his job title. He was classified as "adjunct faculty". Interestingly, he doesn't have any degrees from LDS colleges or universities. He got his MA at a Catholic university (Marylhurst) and his BA at a satellite campus of Oklahoma Christian University.
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I say unto you who are not yet free, Remember the power of “No”, for this word alone will keep you free from Morg mind control.
Posted: 11 August 2014 07:22 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
Curious NeverMo
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Inexile:
interesting. Forgive me if this is a little off topic or too ad hominem but is he really a professor? Isn't he just an online facilitator?
I took the article I read rather quickly as accurate. It looks like you're right that he wasn't a full Professor.
Posted: 12 August 2014 10:56 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
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Curious NeverMo:
So very glad to hear that BYU afforded you enough time to land on your feet. It truly must have been a terrifying time!
I didn't realize that this was happening more frequently without the publicity.
I want to be clear about one thing---I do not know how frequent this happens. I personally know of me and three other faculty that are no longer there because of "not doubting our doubts".
I only have the perception of my own experience to make this comment:
What is more concerning to me is how many professors stay because of 'cognitive dissonance'. The dissonance is fuled, because they are trapped. Once a professor has taught at BYU-Idaho, they are not very marketable at other universities. I could name 10-12 professors that I heard comment that they would like to go somewhere else but they could not get hired.
I remember being so excited when Kim Clark replaced Bednar as the University president---I mean the dean of the Harvard Business School would surley bring an element of academia to the University---Oh boy was I ever wrong!!! What I ultimatley learned was that the freedom to think and share ideas cannot coexist at that god aweful place. Bednar use to call BYU-I a 'disciple learning center'---education was secondary---when ever I heard him say this I always envisioned the clone army in Star Wars.
I am not sure that Kirk Caudle's adjunct status is any less significant, however I would wonder (assuming besides his adjunct position was held in addition to fulltime employment elsewhere) if it is easier to be more vocal, when financial ruin doesn't loom at your doorstep when one resigns a teaching position?
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Posted: 12 August 2014 12:09 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 17 ]
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WinstonSmith:
Curious NeverMo:
So very glad to hear that BYU afforded you enough time to land on your feet. It truly must have been a terrifying time!
I didn't realize that this was happening more frequently without the publicity.
I want to be clear about one thing---I do not know how frequent this happens. I personally know of me and three other faculty that are no longer there because of "not doubting our doubts".
I only have the perception of my own experience to make this comment:
What is more concerning to me is how many professors stay because of 'cognitive dissonance'. The dissonance is fuled, because they are trapped. Once a professor has taught at BYU-Idaho, they are not very marketable at other universities. I could name 10-12 professors that I heard comment that they would like to go somewhere else but they could not get hired.
I remember being so excited when Kim Clark replaced Bednar as the University president---I mean the dean of the Harvard Business School would surley bring an element of academia to the University---Oh boy was I ever wrong!!! What I ultimatley learned was that the freedom to think and share ideas cannot coexist at that god aweful place. Bednar use to call BYU-I a 'disciple learning center'---education was secondary---when ever I heard him say this I always envisioned the clone army in Star Wars.
I am not sure that Kirk Caudle's adjunct status is any less significant, however I would wonder (assuming besides his adjunct position was held in addition to fulltime employment elsewhere) if it is easier to be more vocal, when financial ruin doesn't loom at your doorstep when one resigns a teaching position?
Excellent point there. I'm certain that's the one thing which keeps many doubters quiet if they also happen to be in the church's employ. John McLay was a CES institute teacher when he resigned and he was immediately unemployable. I mean, his whole professional life was devoted to teaching mormonism. What the hell can you do with that in a non-mormon setting? Still, he had the cojones to leave the church. Too bad it cost him and Brooke their marriage (of course this was just one factor).
Kirk Caudle says that his wife and children support him 100%. I wonder how true that is? My disaffection put a tremendous strain on our marriage. It's still the elephant in the room. If I had been employed by the church, and found myself not only unemployed but unemployable as well, I don't know if the marriage could have withstood the pressure. So to WinstonSmith's point, I think it is easier to leave when financial ruin is not looming, and it's probably a whole lot easier on the marriage.
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Posted: 12 August 2014 02:33 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 18 ]
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Matter Unorganized:
WinstonSmith:
Curious NeverMo:
<snip>
<snip>
it is easier to be more vocal, when financial ruin doesn't loom at your doorstep when one resigns a teaching position?
Excellent point there. I'm certain that's the one thing which keeps many doubters quiet if they also happen to be in the church's employ. John McLay was a CES institute teacher when he resigned and he was immediately unemployable. I mean, his whole professional life was devoted to teaching mormonism. What the hell can you do with that in a non-mormon setting? Still, he had the cojones to leave the church. Too bad it cost him and Brooke their marriage (of course this was just one factor).
Kirk Caudle says that his wife and children support him 100%. I wonder how true that is? My disaffection put a tremendous strain on our marriage. It's still the elephant in the room. If I had been employed by the church, and found myself not only unemployed but unemployable as well, I don't know if the marriage could have withstood the pressure. So to WinstonSmith's point, I think it is easier to leave when financial ruin is not looming, and it's probably a whole lot easier on the marriage.
[ ] I was a quiet doubter for 4 years due to this very reason.
[ ] MU, we both know that this statement is BS, unless his wife and children have major doubts about TSCC.
[ ] My experience was the most difficult thing in my lilfe---The finacial aspect was not a strain on the marriage (with the exception tithing---I refused to be extorted out of money any longer). The strain on my marriage is that I give more credance to facts and verifiable evidence than fairytales. The irony---my DW is trapped---TSCC has crippled her ability to support herself, therefore leaving me is not an option for her. She will continue to pray for my soul (lol) and submit my name in the temple (LOL)---and I will keep responding that, maybe she has recieved an answer to her prayers---she is the one being decieved.
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Posted: 08 August 2014 06:50 AM [ Ignore ]
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When one resigns, do the records of ones' parents reflect the fact? Because whether or not I'm resigning should be between me and God, not everyone to whom I'm related.
Posted: 08 August 2014 07:13 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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The word on the street is that if you resign, your parents will learn of it in their year-end tithing settlement. Your name will have an asterik or some annotation that signifies you are no longer a member on the information they are provided.
While I have heard this on other boards, I do not have first-hand knowledge. I resigned two years ago, and my parents are still active, etc. and have attended two tithing settlements since without saying anything to me...but they know I have resigned.
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Posted: 08 August 2014 09:28 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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It's my understanding that you'll still show up as one of their children on their membership records. The records, of I've been told correctly, will still include your member/record number, so your parents shouldn't notice a thing. I can't remember who told me this, but I considered the information source reliable enough to send in my own letter at the time. I still haven't had a notification from TSCC, but it's only been a week since I put it in the mail. Other info of importance: on Mormon genealogical websites, you cannot see any information about a living person's membership status or ordinances. They won't find out your baptism and temple ordinances were invalidated until you're dead. I've personally verified this by logging on and looking at my parents and siblings records. Couldn't see any of that stuff for my parents, my siblings, or even my own kids.
I know my parents take comfort in the fact I'm "still a member" because it means I'm still sealed to them, so they can pull me up into the CK despite my apostasy so I can live as a ministering angel in their celestial mansion on high. I'd like for them to continue to have that comfort, so I hope they don't find out, even though they know I don't believe. Still, I had to resign, even at the Trish it might show up somewhere they would see it.
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Posted: 13 August 2014 11:23 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Lord of Darkness:
The word on the street is that if you resign, your parents will learn of it in their year-end tithing settlement. Your name will have an asterik or some annotation that signifies you are no longer a member on the information they are provided.
While I have heard this on other boards, I do not have first-hand knowledge. I resigned two years ago, and my parents are still active, etc. and have attended two tithing settlements since without saying anything to me...but they know I have resigned.
There are many words on the street. Last I heard it is not reflected. At least this has changed in the past year or so.
My friend resigned, his little brother is still a teenager. At tithing settlement he peered over his dads shoulder to look at the sheet(because my friend told him ahead of time to look for this). His little brother said that everyone's names were there. Even the resigned son.
I've heard so many things over the years and could never get a straight answer. I got, it's not there at all, it's there but there is no membership number, then I got the answer that it doesn't look any different than your active siblings.
I'll let you know in January of 2015 though I don't think my parents would bring it up if they noticed I had resigned.
The way I look at it, even if your name isn't there people aren't looking for children's names, They are looking at the numbers/figures. Seeing if everything has been paid/acccounted for. You could probably put their kids as celebrities and many peopel would totally overlook it. I'm serious. I work in customer oriented finance. People overlook things all the time. Very obvious things.
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Unitarian Universalism?
Posted: 03 August 2014 08:58 PM [ Ignore ]
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I am profoundly ignorant on this topic. It makes no sense to me. There are no Unitarian Universalist churches within two hours of my home, so I cannot go check it out for myself.
If there is a church where no one in the congregation believes the same thing as anyone else in the congregation, is it still a church? It almost sounds like a social club. I have read that there are a lot of atheists and agnostics who attend. That is just bizarre. Many atheists and agnostics just hate to hear people talk about the supernatural when they have no evidence to back up their claims. I guess these non-religious people just enjoy the companionship and camaraderie of belonging to a church?
I never liked having to get up early on Sunday morning, wear church clothes, and sit in long meetings. These negatives for me outweighed the positives of social interaction and the intellectual stimulation that occasionally occurred at church. I just did not enjoy church.
I am just totally puzzled. Can anyone here enlighten me on why people attend the Unitarian Universalist church?
Posted: 03 August 2014 09:17 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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UU is not the only religion that doesn't insist on theology or even belief. Society of Friends or Quakers also don't make any requirements.
I'm not a church goer. I'm not a joiner of anything more social than blogs. Still, even as an agnostic pushing the atheist boundary I can understand that we have spiritual lives even if they aren't based on a god. And, I can understand that some people want a community. Meanwhile, a community of people who believe in not insisting on anyone else having the same beliefs is not outrageous to me. So, if it floats someone's boat, why not?
I will say that I occasionally go to Friends meetings when I'm traveling with a Quaker friend. I will tell you that it's a very powerful experience. A very real and interesting happens when people meditate together. It is both energizing and relaxing and it is a genuine respite from modern life. I have never felt out of place OTOH or smothered OTO. I never feel self-conscious about my own disbelief or judged for not having an intent to participate outside of the meeting. I always look forward to another opportunity to spend a quiet hour with Friends I've never met.
If anyone cares to check out a Friends meeting, they are a unique experience and, at least in the Northeast, they are often in lovely old buildings that have the same ethos of simplicity and grace that the splinter group, the Shakers, immortalized.
Posted: 03 August 2014 09:38 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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I'm not a UU myself, but perhaps people find in UU congregations a sense of community. Mormonism does have community, but they also have a great deal of conformity. Perhaps what attracts people to the UUs is the community minus the conformity.
There is an on-line UU congregation, namely the Church of the Larger Fellowship. You can access their website here:
http://www.clfuu.org/
Posted: 04 August 2014 07:30 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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I go to the UU. When I disentangled myself from Mormonism I didn't feel any need for another religion and never went looking for one, even though I knew of the UU and knew it might be a good fit. Several years later, when I divorced I went to a UU service here in Columbia to hear a friend give the guest sermon. I liked the community, the people I met, so I started going from time to time and then more regularly. (It helps that it's just a few blocks from where I live.)
What I really liked was their statement of principles, which you can find on the UU Assocation web site:
1st Principle: The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
2nd Principle: Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
3rd Principle: Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
4th Principle: A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
5th Principle: The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
6th Principle: The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
7th Principle: Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.
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Posted: 04 August 2014 01:47 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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I should admit right up front that I have never attended a UU meeting. But I want to, because from what I understand none of the negatives you mentioned apply to that organization. I've heard that dressing up isn't expected. I've heard they serve coffee. I've heard the lessons aren't based on supernatural things, but rather on ways we can improve our own lives and the lives of others. I plan to make it to a UU meeting soon to verify what I've heard. Maybe it could be a great place to get a sense of community and make some new friends.
Posted: 04 August 2014 02:00 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Lazarus:
I should admit right up front that I have never attended a UU meeting. But I want to, because from what I understand none of the negatives you mentioned apply to that organization. I've heard that dressing up isn't expected. I've heard they serve coffee. I've heard the lessons aren't based on supernatural things, but rather on ways we can improve our own lives and the lives of others. I plan to make it to a UU meeting soon to verify what I've heard. Maybe it could be a great place to get a sense of community and make some new friends.
All of this is correct. For me dressing up for a UU service means wearing a Polo shirt and sandals (like Jesus would want me to).
Congregations vary, of course, but I think that basically you can expect them to all be populated with free-thinkers.
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Posted: 04 August 2014 04:12 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Lazarus:
I should admit right up front that I have never attended a UU meeting. But I want to, because from what I understand none of the negatives you mentioned apply to that organization. I've heard that dressing up isn't expected. I've heard they serve coffee. I've heard the lessons aren't based on supernatural things, but rather on ways we can improve our own lives and the lives of others. I plan to make it to a UU meeting soon to verify what I've heard. Maybe it could be a great place to get a sense of community and make some new friends.
I haven't been to a UU meeting either. In my recent searching I came across the concept of Christian Deism. There's a guy in Texas, who calls himself brother John. He posted some webpages about the concept.
But- his story was that he was raised baptists and became a baptist priest. He didn't like all the hell and damnation that was taught in his church, renounced Baptist ideas and started attending the UU. He liked that the UU preached love for everyone regardless of beliefs and that they included a little bit of God. But he says that in the 80's the UU rewrote their mission statement and delete the mention of God altogether.
That was when he left, but for athiests and agnostics, I'm sure the change was a relief. So yeah, they probably stay away from supernatural things.
Posted: 04 August 2014 09:24 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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I am UU. I went on and off for a long time before I joined. Not that I go more now.
Congregations vary. Ironically, the one in Salt Lack is among the most atheist and critical of religions -- because they get so many burned Mormons. Some Congregations are more Christian.
You don't need to believe in any deity to join. I don't. And I was first introduced to The God Delusion by their book table. (They always have coffee after services with various tables -- always one for books.)
I would not say it is just a social club, however, and UU is not for everyone, and perhaps it is not for you. (And nothing wrong with that.)
Just because they don't believe in a god (nor gods nor goddesses, as they would be quick to point out) does not mean they believe in nothing. They believe in justice, equality, social responsibility, and community. They also hang back from judging those who don't share your beliefs -- or lack thereof, so if you want to mock, judge, or blame believers, UU is not the right place for you. You will be expected to amicably rub elbows with believers (of various stripes) and the even the occasional Christian. It also might be too lefty for you. Not everyone is but most are, and if you would be irritated by people drinking fair trade coffee and peddling green light bulbs, chances are you are going to be uncomfortable -- possibly as much so as at a Mormon Church.
There are some modest rituals, but they seem sweet to me. For example for the baby naming, they have the entire family come to the front with the baby. The mom then holds the baby (as she should), and the child is presented with a rose from which the thorns have been cut. The rose is the beauty of life. The thorns are cut away to show how a community can help take the prickles out of life and make it smoother for the baby. If you object to all that (and I can't stress this enough, why shouldn't you?), you might not like UU.
Beyond that there is a lot of socializing. I love the Circle Suppers. You sign up to have dinner at your house. People sign on to come. Another great tradition is the single people of the congregation go to a luncheon after services, which are roughly an hour long. So you can go church at 10 and be sipping a Mimosa by noon. Rather cushy after Mormonism.
One of the best thing UU offers is a class in Building Your Own Theology. I took it, and it rocked. They will let you take it even if you have no intention of joining. In a supportive group you look at your past with religion, what it meant to you, how it damaged you, how it made you stronger. Then you work out for yourself what you want in a theology. My group was led by the nicest gay couple. And it was all very touching. You really have a chance to work through some issues. Of course at the end of it, you might conclude that your theology has nothing to do with any building or any group of people.
And the coolest thing about the Unitarians? That will be just fine with them.
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Posted: 05 August 2014 05:34 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Thanks, TWW, for this great mini-primer on UU.
It's refreshing to learn of a church that helps you ask questions
rather than one that claims to have all the answers (and clearly doesn't).
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Posted: 05 August 2014 08:20 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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The UU church where I currently live is too far away, but I'm moving soon and there are two within 20 minutes of me. I'm planning to check one or both out just to see if there's a community out there that doesn't push dogma but that can support me and my family as we strive to be good people. I have some exmo friends who love the UU church and its open-minded, socially progressive messages.
Posted: 06 August 2014 09:26 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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thewriterwithin:
I am UU. I went on and off for a long time before I joined. Not that I go more now.
Congregations vary. Ironically, the one in Salt Lack is among the most atheist and critical of religions -- because they get so many burned Mormons. Some Congregations are more Christian.
You don't need to believe in any deity to join. I don't. And I was first introduced to The God Delusion by their book table. (They always have coffee after services with various tables -- always one for books.)
I would not say it is just a social club, however, and UU is not for everyone, and perhaps it is not for you. (And nothing wrong with that.)
Just because they don't believe in a god (nor gods nor goddesses, as they would be quick to point out) does not mean they believe in nothing. They believe in justice, equality, social responsibility, and community. They also hang back from judging those who don't share your beliefs -- or lack thereof, so if you want to mock, judge, or blame believers, UU is not the right place for you. You will be expected to amicably rub elbows with believers (of various stripes) and the even the occasional Christian. It also might be too lefty for you. Not everyone is but most are, and if you would be irritated by people drinking fair trade coffee and peddling green light bulbs, chances are you are going to be uncomfortable -- possibly as much so as at a Mormon Church.
There are some modest rituals, but they seem sweet to me. For example for the baby naming, they have the entire family come to the front with the baby. The mom then holds the baby (as she should), and the child is presented with a rose from which the thorns have been cut. The rose is the beauty of life. The thorns are cut away to show how a community can help take the prickles out of life and make it smoother for the baby. If you object to all that (and I can't stress this enough, why shouldn't you?), you might not like UU.
Beyond that there is a lot of socializing. I love the Circle Suppers. You sign up to have dinner at your house. People sign on to come. Another great tradition is the single people of the congregation go to a luncheon after services, which are roughly an hour long. So you can go church at 10 and be sipping a Mimosa by noon. Rather cushy after Mormonism.
One of the best thing UU offers is a class in Building Your Own Theology. I took it, and it rocked. They will let you take it even if you have no intention of joining. In a supportive group you look at your past with religion, what it meant to you, how it damaged you, how it made you stronger. Then you work out for yourself what you want in a theology. My group was led by the nicest gay couple. And it was all very touching. You really have a chance to work through some issues. Of course at the end of it, you might conclude that your theology has nothing to do with any building or any group of people.
And the coolest thing about the Unitarians? That will be just fine with them.
TWW,
Yes, thank you for sharing this insight. I know you and I have slightly locked horns over my feelings that religion is dangerous due to its ability to control minds. This does sound different from most religions--more like a social club--like was mentioned. Maybe that is why is sounds so much better. Still, I personally, would have my critical thinking skills ready--just in case--someone decided to control me due to the fact that I had developed a "need" for this organization to a point that they had control of my mind. It does sound like a nice group. If mormonism were this harmless...well, none of us would be here!
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Posted: 07 August 2014 05:45 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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After attending two UU meetings or services, I would say that there is very little demand or pressure, to conform to expectations. I feel its more of a open community service social club of sorts where people mingle to involve themselves with more community public service projects. I think that is where their reward or personal satisfaction comes from, applying their time and money to service projects within their communities, regardless of who receives the benefits.
Posted: 07 August 2014 02:32 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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former victim:
After attending two UU meetings or services, I would say that there is very little demand or pressure, to conform to expectations. I feel its more of a open community service social club of sorts where people mingle to involve themselves with more community public service projects. I think that is where their reward or personal satisfaction comes from, applying their time and money to service projects within their communities, regardless of who receives the benefits.
The one thing that might make it a bit safer is it sounds like it does not include "hero worship." Of course, that could always change. There is that importance of the critical thinking skills--always turned to "ON."
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Posted: 07 August 2014 04:33 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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I have been very intrigued by this "church". We are lucky to have two congregations in the city I live in. One of these days I swear I'm going to go ( I've been enjoying my Sundays off too much). One of the things I miss about church is the community and feeling of belonging, and opportunities to serve (not that the Mormon church serves it's community. Serves itself yes, but not the community).
I could never join another church, especially a Christian church, but this looks more like a group of people comng together for friendship, service, and building each other up.
Here is a link I found, 100 FAQs. Reading through this was such a breath of fresh air. The honesty and integrity is a nice change.
http://www.uunashua.org/100quest.shtml
Posted: 07 August 2014 08:29 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
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SevenofNine:
I have been very intrigued by this "church". We are lucky to have two congregations in the city I live in. One of these days I swear I'm going to go ( I've been enjoying my Sundays off too much). One of the things I miss about church is the community and feeling of belonging, and opportunities to serve (not that the Mormon church serves it's community. Serves itself yes, but not the community).
I could never join another church, especially a Christian church, but this looks more like a group of people comng together for friendship, service, and building each other up.
Here is a link I found, 100 FAQs. Reading through this was such a breath of fresh air. The honesty and integrity is a nice change.
http://www.uunashua.org/100quest.shtml
Religion would be OK if it were based on love, honesty, respect, compassion, and most of all--truth. Would not a religion like that be one that the entire world could be a part of? All good people want those things. I believe someday we will evolve to this point--then we will have peace on earth. It would take us all watching and making sure religion never when back to the mind-control and hero worship that has abused mankind since the beginning of time.
However, I retain the right to someday worship the hero in the man I will finally call my own. He will just have to be man enough to handle that! (This has nothing to do with religion--by the way. Just felt like saying it!) Ha!
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Posted: 07 August 2014 09:00 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
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Strong Free & Thankful:
However, I retain the right to someday worship the hero in the man I will finally call my own. He will just have to be man enough to handle that! (This has nothing to do with religion--by the way. Just felt like saying it!) Ha!
This is exactly, precisely, what I feel too, Strong Free & Thankful...
As Christopher Vogler has so eloquently shown all of us: the heroes all around us...those who go through the challenges of the Hero's Journey and transform themselves into the heroes of their own lives...are the truest heroes there are.
Posted: 08 August 2014 05:52 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
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I attended a UU service once and was surprised to see images depicting not only Jesus, but Vishnu, Buddha, nature, gods I don't know, more nature... It was a very warm and welcoming place. They baptized a child (although they called it "dedicating" the child) and both parents participated. Mind you, it was a sprinkling ritual, much like a Catholic baptism, but without mention of God or Jesus or angels and such. This was about 25 years ago, so things may have changed since then.
After the dedication, the pastor gave one of the best sermons I had ever heard, one which I could use to better myself without having to first think and make sense of parables or "coded" information. It was direct and to the point. I told my TBM father (on the stake high council at the time) and he was not impressed. "It's not the true church, and that's not God's way of doing things." I didn't even get to tell him about the whole experience.
If I ever were to attend a congregation regularly, it would be UU. Unfortunately, there is not one in my town, but I have recently considered looking in to what is required to become a UU minister and starting a congregation where I live. Still, after all the mormon indoctrination, I find the concept of making my living through preaching and pastoral care to be a bit ... distasteful? I don't know.
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Posted: 08 August 2014 12:16 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 17 ]
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thewriterwithin
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TWW,
Yes, thank you for sharing this insight. I know you and I have slightly locked horns over my feelings that religion is dangerous due to its ability to control minds. This does sound different from most religions--more like a social club--like was mentioned. Maybe that is why is sounds so much better. Still, I personally, would have my critical thinking skills ready--just in case--someone decided to control me due to the fact that I had developed a "need" for this organization to a point that they had control of my mind. It does sound like a nice group. If mormonism were this harmless...well, none of us would be here!
Well, there is no reason in the world people should run out to join UU -- or even attend. But it is living proof that not all religions seek to control your mind.
As with everything, people have different experiences. Mine has been that if anything, my UU congregation errs on the other side.
That nice gay couple who led my Building Your Own Theology class? They were also both retired science teachers.
One week we were supposed to bring in quotes about religion to discuss. I brought two -- one was from A Demon-Haunted World -- which was very well received and praised.
The other was from some Catholic thing I had come across. I liked it because it said that everyone everywhere, even those born before Jesus' time or living in cultures that never crossed paths with Christianity, had access to God's grace. I liked it because of the inclusiveness and because I interpret such thing as "God's grace" to possibly be metaphors for say -- human dignity, human worth, and life's transcendent moments. That quote frankly brought more of a puzzled frown. Well, they weren't retired POETRY teachers, now were they.
Also, one woman started our group and dropped out. She had been raised Catholic, and while she didn't want that, she was looking for a church in which she felt comfortable raising her kids. She obviously wanted something more spiritual. At least I thought so, and I felt bad, as though we had somehow failed her or failed to include her.
If you disagree with a sermon, frankly, the pastor would love it if you went up to him and explained why.
I would say they almost DEMAND critical thinking skills from you. Also in stark contrast to Mormonism -- their books are not only open, you are expected to attend meetings where you voice your opinion about how money should be spent. They rather frown on me because I don't know if I want to be all THAT involved.
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Gays the ‘stone cut from the mountain without hands’?
Posted: 08 August 2014 01:05 AM [ Ignore ]
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1.6% of 7 BILLION people (population of the earth) is 112 MILLION people.
There are about 15 million Mormons.
Could it be the Gays who are the stone cut from the mountain..., etc?
More gays than mormons by at least 7 times.
Is this why 'the mormon moment' has stalled and maybe become 'the gay moment'?
Why gay marriage is gaining traction while mormon plural marriage is feared by believing mormons?
Why mormon leaders are so afraid of 'gay folk' a lot like they used to be afraid of 'colored folk'?
Joseph Fielding Smith once said 'darkies are nice people'. Will Tommie Monson say 'gays are nice people'? If so, will it become scripture or is he speaking as a fool again?
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Blacks & Priesthoood
Posted: 09 August 2014 05:26 PM [ Ignore ]
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How do we know Spence and the Twelve weren't 'speaking as men' with this?
More than a century of "doctrine" and strong statements by previous "Prophets" and First Presidencies... and Spence comes up with a CYA political type statement that saves BYU sports from public protests and saves L-d$,inc from severe tax and financial consequences.
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It wasn’t a “revelation” that ended Mormon polygamy. It was a U.S. Supreme Court decision against the “late corporation” of the LDS Church (links)
Posted: 04 August 2014 10:13 AM [ Ignore ]
CdnXMo
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For generations, the official Latter-day Saint 'truth' about why Mormon polygamy in the 19th century came to an end was because church president, Wilford Woodruff, had received a "revelation" nixing the practice (but not the doctrine, which has never been rescinded and remains part of LDS scripture, per D&C 132). The LDS Church's Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual says:
"The Lord showed me [Woodruff] by vision and revelation exactly what would take place if we did not stop this practice. If we had not stopped it, you would have had no use for Brother Merrill, for Brother Edlefsen, for Brother Roskelley, for Brother Leishman, or for any of the men in this temple at Logan; for all ordinances would be stopped throughout the land of Zion. Confusion would reign throughout Israel, and many men would be made prisoners. This trouble would have come upon the whole Church, and we should have been compelled to stop the practice. Now, the question is, whether it should be stopped in this manner, or in the way the Lord has manifested to us, and leave our prophets and apostles and fathers free men, and the temples in the hands of the people, so that the dead may be redeemed?"
Ironically, it was Woodruff who, as a senior Mormon apostle, told Latter-day Saints in 1869:
"This Priesthood, these keys of the kingdom of God that have been sealed upon him [church president Brigham Young], the world is at war against; let them say what they may, these things are what they are at enmity with. Their present objection to the Latter-day Saints, they say, is plurality of wives...
"If we were to do away with polygamy, it would only be one feather in the bird, one ordinance in the Church and kingdom. Do away with that, then we must do away with prophets and Apostles, with revelation and the gifts and graces of the Gospel, and finally give up our religion altogether and turn sectarians and do as the world does, then all would be right. We just can't do that, for God has commanded us to build up His kingdom and to bear our testimony to the nations of the earth, and we are going to do it, come life or come death. He has told us to do thus, and we shall obey Him in days to come as we have in days past."
In late 1890, Woodruff flip-flopped on the issue of polygamy and issued what has become known in the Mormon Church as the "Manifesto" (Official Declaration 1), which stated: "We are not teaching polygamy or plural marriage, nor permitting any person to enter into its practice, and I [Woodruff] deny that either forty or any other number of plural marriages have during that period been solemnized in our Temples or in any other place in the Territory."
Why did Woodruff do an about-face in relation to Mormonism's "plurality of wives"? Because on May 19, 1890, the U.S. Supreme Court drove the final legal nail in the coffin of the "The Late Corporation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" by issuing its decision, "136 U.S. 1", which stated:
"Congress had the power to repeal the act of incorporation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints not only by virtue of its general power over the territories, but by virtue of an express reservation in the organic act of the Territory of Utah of the power to disapprove and annul the acts of its legislature."
"Congress, as the supreme legislature of Utah, had full power and authority to direct the winding up of the affairs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as a defunct corporation, with a view to the due appropriation of its property to legitimate religious and charitable uses conformable, as near as practicable, to those to which it was originally dedicated."
"The pretense of [LDS] religious belief cannot deprive Congress of the power to prohibit polygamy and all other open offenses against the enlightened sentiment of mankind."
The Supreme Court's written decision repeatedly mentioned Congress' Act of 1862, which the court upheld. The legislation in question was the Morrill Anti-Bigamy Act, which, according to USLegal.com, was "the first basic federal legislation by the Congress of the United States that was designed to punish and prevent the practice of polygamy in the U.S... The Morrill Anti-Bigamy Act was later amended in 1882 by the Edmunds Act, and then again in 1887 by the Edmunds-Tucker Act."
In the mid-19th century, it was Mormon polygamist and church president Brigham Young who decided (in July 1847) that the Latter-day Saints would settle in the Salt Lake Valley. At that time, Utah was not part of the United States and would not become a U.S. Territory until September 1850.
Going further back in Latter-day Saint history, polygamy started a few years after Joseph Smith (JS) launched his "Church of Christ" in early 1830. He was married to Emma and moving forward with his 'career' as the leading Mormon "prophet." In his late 20s, he also took a fancy to Fanny Alger, a teenage girl who worked in the Smith couple's home.
Some years before young Fanny, who was described as "comly" (good-looking), came to JS' attention, he had written a "revelation" reportedly from "the Lord" (D&C 42) that said:
"Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else.
"And he that looketh upon a woman to lust after her shall deny the faith, and shall not have the Spirit; and if he repents not he shall be cast out."
The person who ended up being "cast out" (from the Smith household) was vulnerable Fanny. Why? Because she "was unable to conceal the consequences of her celestial relation with the prophet," according to Chauncey Webb, the father of Ann Eliza Webb, who became one of Brigham Young's 55 wives. It doesn't much imagination to conclude that JS got the adolescent girl pregnant.
According to the LDS Church's online genealogical record for Fanny, JS married her in 1835. At the time, they lived in Kirtland, Ohio. During the 1830s, Section 7 of the Ohio Session Laws stated (on p. 136): "That if any married person, having a husband or wife living, shall marry any other person; every person so offending shall be deemed guilty of a high misdemeanor, and upon conviction thereof, shall be imprisoned in the penitentiary, and kept at hard labor, not exceeding seven nor less than three years."
Latter-day Saint polygamy, which has persisted to this day in fundamentalist LDS groups in Utah and other jurisdictions, began with an illegal act by JS, Mormonism's so-called "prophet of the Restoration." However, the ancient Christian church didn't teach or advocate having more than one spouse.
It's also noteworthy that the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants stated in Section 101: "Inasmuch as this Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy [because of JS], we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife, and one woman but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again."
In early 1842, after JS had illegally married Fanny plus the wives of five men and two single women (at least), he wrote Mormonism's "Articles of Faith", which included the following declaration: "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law."
Latter-day Saint history reveals otherwise. Like deceit, hypocrisy has been foundational to Mormonism since its genesis more than 184 years ago.
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Posted: 04 August 2014 10:03 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
Felix
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I don't know why everyone refers to any of Josephs clandestine affairs as "marriage." I think Oliver Cowdery had it correct when he referred to the Fanny Alger incident as "the dirty nasty filthy affair."
Especially so with the affairs with other mens wives. How can anyone get off calling this marriage? It was done behind the backs of faithful husbands, most of whom were faithful members. It was they who were doing the heavy lifting of marriage; caring for their family and supporting them.
Joseph was merely licking the icing off someone else's cake. This looks a bit more like indulgence than sacrifice on Josephs part. If my faith is weak I am more inclined to believe and follow a leader who demonstrated his convictions by sacrifice, not indulgence and then attempting to conceal and lie about it.
I believe the revelation received by John Taylor when the government was coming down on the church for the practice of polygamy is appropriate with this thread.
Given to President John Taylor September 27, 1886
My son John, you have asked me concerning the New and Everlasting Covenant how far it is binding upon my people.
Thus saith the Lord: All commandments that I give must be obeyed by those calling themselves by my name unless they are revoked by me or by my authority, and how can I revoke an everlasting covenant, for I the Lord am everlasting and my everlasting covenants cannot be abrogated nor done away with, but they stand forever.
Have I not given my word in great plainness on this subject? Yet have not great numbers of my people been negligent in the observance of my law and the keeping of my commandments, and yet have I borne with them these many years; and this because of their weakness—because of the perilous times, and furthermore, it is more pleasing to me that men should use their free agency in regard to these matters. Nevertheless, I the Lord do not change and my word and my covenants and my law do not, and as I have heretofore said by my servant Joseph: All those who would enter into my glory must and shall obey my law. And have I not commanded men that if they were Abraham’s seed and would enter into my glory, they must do the works of Abraham. I have not revoked this law, nor will I, for it is everlasting, and those who will enter into my glory must obey the conditions thereof; even so, Amen.[5]
I believe that there has been some controversy about whether or not the revelation is genuine. The fundamentalist believe it to be genuine and so do I although I don't believe God had any thing to do with it.
Posted: 05 August 2014 01:12 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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bradspencer74
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If you are interested in the topic, I would highly recommend Dr. Kathleen Flake's book on the Reed Smoot hearings. (Even BYU Studies gives it a positive review, despite the fact that it clearly shows the Church violating its own revelation and its duplicity in the matter of polygamy for almost 20 years.)
In it, she demonstrates through official church history records and the Congressional Record that live polygamous marriages continued in the mainline Church in temples almost to World War I, and only truly began to taper off after the hearings, the so-called "Second Manifesto," and the accompanying excommunications of Matthias Cowley and John W Taylor from the Q15. Even after that, the Lyman investigation showed the mainline Church doing live plural marriages after 1909.
The so called revelation of Wilford Woodruff was a smoke screen, behind which the Church tried to contunue polygamy. It was the US Congress, the general mocking of Joseph F Smith before the nation, and what we would call the Church PR department that ended it so many years later.
Posted: 05 August 2014 01:27 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
CdnXMo
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bradspencer:
If you are interested in the topic, I would highly recommend Dr. Kathleen Flake's book on the Reed Smoot hearings. (Even BYU Studies gives it a positive review, despite the fact that it clearly shows the Church violating its own revelation and its duplicity in the matter of polygamy for almost 20 years.)
I second bradspencer's recommendation. The following excerpts are from the Introduction of Dr. Flake's illuminating book, The Politics of American Religious Identity: The Seating of Senator Reed Smoot, Mormon Apostle:
"Between 1903 and 1907, a broad coalition of American Protestant churches, acting directly through their ministers and indirectly through various reform agencies, sought to expel Utah's new senator [Reed Smoot] on the grounds that his ecclesiastical position [as a Latter-day Saint apostle] made him a conspirator in the L.D.S. Church's continuing violation of the nation's antipolygamy laws. In the Smoot hearing, as in every other Mormon conflict of the previous century, the Protestants were the chief combatants."
"Mormons did not, nor were they invited to, participate in the effort to reform American social institutions. Indeed, they were at best the objects of reform and at worst deemed incapable of reform. For nineteenth-century Americans, including church history scholar Phillip Schaff, there was an 'irreconcilable antagonism of the American nationality with the pseudo-Christian polygamists, [and] deceitful, rapacious, and rebellious Mormonism.' Though rightly stripped of its normative indictment, Schaff's finding in historic Mormonism an extraordinary degree of otherness remains the scholarly consensus. 'The Mormons attracted attention as a useful counterimage,' according to one modern analysis, 'a glaring example of what America was not and should not be.'"
"Several factors contributed to the L.D.S. Church's bad reputation, and they are discussed in the chapters that follow. For now, the observation must suffice that aside from the fear they inspired by successfully dominating the mountain West as a political domain, the Latter-day Saints attracted the hostility that belongs to the foil, that dramatic persona whose very likeness exaggerates opposition to its difference. Organized in 1830 and rooted in New England restorationism and frontier utopianism, Mormonism had early and always attracted the negative attention of its fellow citizens, but no more so than when it claimed the right to restore Old Testament polygamy. Rumors of it contributed to the mob violence that chased Mormons from the Ohio Valley to the banks of the Mississippi and, finally, to the isolated Great Basin on the far side of the Rockies. By the middle of the nineteenth century, Americans were so aggravated by Latter-day Saint beliefs and practices that a sixth of the antebellum U.S. Army was stationed in the foothills overlooking Salt Lake City to police the Mormon kingdom. After the Civil War, a series of anti[-]polygamy statutes criminalized the church’s marital practices and sent more than a thousand of its members to federal prisons, as well as disincorporating their church and confiscating its property. After several failed attempts, statehood was granted the Utah territory in 1896, largely based on the church’s 1890 promise to abandon its unique marital practice. When the Smoot hearing showed that the Mormons had continued to practice polygamy, the national debate on Mormonism was reinvigorated and performed on the public stage of the U.S. Senate.
"The four-year Senate proceeding created a 3,500-page record of testimony by 100 witnesses on every peculiarity of Mormonism, especially its polygamous family structure, ritual worship practices, 'secret oaths,' open canon, economic communalism, and theocratic politics. The public participated actively in the proceedings. In the Capitol, spectators lined the halls, waiting for limited seats in the committee room, and filled the galleries to hear floor debates. For those who could not see for themselves, journalists and cartoonists depicted each day's admission and outrage. At the height of the hearing some senators were receiving a thousand letters a day from angry constituents. What remains of these public petitions fills eleven feet of shelf space, the largest such collection in the National Archives.
"Notwithstanding the news coverage dedicated to the trial, there was nothing new to report. Or more accurately, the only news was that the Mormons had not changed. After following the hearing for a year and a half, Illinois senator Shelby Cullom concluded, 'Mormonism is the same menace to this country as it was from the beginning.' Indeed, the basic facts of the case were so familiar that over the years they had been reduced to the label, 'the Mormon Problem'."
"America's problem with the Latter-day Saints was not simply or even primarily a matter of unlawful action, but of conflicting authority. The Latter-day Saints appealed to the law of their god, given through modern prophets, to justify their resistance to the law of the land."
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Posted: 05 August 2014 01:38 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Thanks for the post CdnXMo. Growing up I never learned about the acts of congress or Supreme Court decision that retroactively dissolved the LDS church. Or the several decades of time that passed after that before the modern LDS church was re-incorporated as The Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We learned about the spiritual transition between Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. But we never about the dissolution and later recreation of the church. We also didn't learn about the attempts to retroactively re-deed Church property by prominent Mormons in the late 1800s to individuals so that the government couldn't take it away. The modern LDS church (re-founded after the polygamy issue and several prophets and decades passed) turned 90 recently. For some reason they didn't celebrate that milestone. Clarity
Posted: 05 August 2014 01:53 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
CdnXMo
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Clarity:
Growing up I never learned about the acts of congress or Supreme Court decision that retroactively dissolved the LDS church.
The following is historical info. from the U.S. Senate's website:
"On February 23, 1903, the credentials for Reed Smoot (R-UT) were presented and placed on file. On the same day, a memorial from several Salt Lake City residents asked that Smoot, a well-known and influential Mormon manufacturer and banker, not be permitted to take his seat. The protesters were a small group of businessmen and Protestant ministers who opposed Mormon economic policies in Utah.
"On March 5, 1903, Reed Smoot appeared and took his oath of office, under the Senate's policy that a senator whose credentials were in order would be seated and any challenges dealt with afterward. The arrival of the Mormon senator, a member of the church's powerful Quorum of Twelve Apostles, attracted national attention and unleashed a torrent of complaints against him. Petitions with thousands of signatures flooded the Senate from Protestant churches, women's organizations outraged by polygamy, and others influenced by newpaper attacks on Smoot. The protesters charged that the Mormon leadership, including the Quorum of Twelve, held supreme authority over both spiritual and temporal matters for its members and frequently interfered in Utah politics. They also complained that the leaders continued to believe in, encourage, and practice polygamy, even though it was illegal.
"The deluge of petitions and resolutions moved the Senate on January 27, 1904, to order an investigation into the hierarchy of the Mormon church. A central issue was whether Smoot, as one of the Quorum of Twelve, had taken a church fealty oath that made him ineligible to sit in the United State Senate. The Senate referred the matter to the Committee on Privileges and Elections."
[My note: The "church fealty oath" in question included the LDS Church's oath of vengeance - part of the supposedly 'holy' temple endowment ceremony - against "this nation," i.e., the United States.]
"Response of the Senate
"The committee plunged into an investigation that lasted more than two years, gathering testimony that filled five volumes. The scope of the investigation expanded far beyond Smoot and became a full dissection of the structure and machinery of the Mormon church, as well as the temporal and religious concerns of Mormons. Arguments against Smoot centered on three points: he was a member of a church that encouraged polygamy; he had taken a religious oath that disqualified him from the Senate; and he was a member of a religion that united church and state.
The Smoot forces argued that since 1890 the Mormon church had not 'controlled or attempted to control elections in Utah,' and Smoot had never taken any oath including 'an obligation of hostility to the United States,' as had been alleged. They also correctly observed that other Mormons—although none holding such high positions in the church—had already been elected to and served in the U.S. Congress. More directly relevant to the matter at hand was the argument that none of the practices of the Mormon church had any bearing on Smoot's constitutional qualifications to be a United States senator.
"Despite this significant point, the committee on June 1, 1906, voted 7 to 5 that Smoot was not entitled to his seat. On June 11 a divided committee filed majority and minority reports. The majority recommended that Smoot be removed from office, having concluded that he perceived his first loyalty to be the maintenance of the corporate and spiritual interests of Utah's Mormons. For its part, the minority report contended that testimony before the committee failed to substantiate any of the charges against Smoot. The lengthy proceedings never included personal attacks on the senator, whose character was above reproach.
"When the Senate reconvened in December 1906 after its summer recess, the Smoot case took center stage. Privileges and Elections Committee Chairman Julius C. Burrows (R-MI) led the attack against Smoot, tying him and the Mormon church to support for polygamy. Smoot, however, gained some eloquent defenders, among them noted orator Albert J. Beveridge (R-IN), one of those signing the committee's minority report. Not only was Smoot not himself a polygamist, Beveridge asserted, but 'the evidence shows that, from the first, Reed Smoot has been the leader of the younger, wiser, and more modern element of his Church that oppose that insult to marriage.' He then closed with a stirring call for religious tolerance.
"On February 20, 1907, the ordeal of Reed Smoot—during which he conducted himself with grace and dignity—finally reached a conclusion. After deciding to require a two-thirds vote to declare Smoot not entitled to his seat, the Senate first voted down a move to expel him, 27 yeas to 43 nays, and then refused by a vote of 28 yeas to 42 nays to deny the Utah senator his right to remain in the Senate.
"Conclusion
x
"The investigation into Reed Smoot's right to a Senate seat had in many ways been an American trial of the Mormon Church. In permitting Smoot to retain his seat, the U.S. Senate took a stand in support of religious freedom for all Americans. In practical terms, the staunch support of Republican President Theodore Roosevelt had helped to ensure the margin of victory by encouraging wavering Republican senators to stand firm.
"Reed Smoot served in the Senate for thirty years. At his death in 1941, he was third in line for the presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."
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“It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry.”—Thomas Paine, intellectual, philosopher, writer, and one of the Founding Fathers of the United States of America.
Posted: 05 August 2014 02:04 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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The church also fails to teach that there is no possible way Joseph Smith's dalliances with Fanny Alger could have been sanctioned: his tryst with her occurred in 1835, and the keys to the new and everlasting covenant were not restored by Elijah until 3 April, 1836, well AFTER Emma had walked in on Joseph and Fanny humping in the barn.
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“Loving your life is a sin, hating it is a commandment” - Jesus.
Posted: 05 August 2014 01:47 PM [ Ignore ]
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Matter Unorganized
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I found a great facebook page, Nonsense from the Bible. It's full of contradictions, bad advice, morally reprehensible stories, and infographics to go with them!
Here's some bad advice from Jesus:
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Don't Enjoy.jpg
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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler
Posted: 05 August 2014 02:23 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Dovolente
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Funny (and kinda sad). Thanks for sharing. :)
Posted: 05 August 2014 02:57 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
layla
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Very amusing...as is your profile pic matter unorganized. smile
Posted: 06 August 2014 05:19 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Lloyd Dobler
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Hate yourself, love the church. Love the church because only the church can make you happy. Hate yourself because you are fallen and are lost and are a natural man and an enemy to god. Love God because he was nice enough to give you the church. Love the church because they give you all the rules you need to follow. Hate yourself because you can't follow all the rules. Love the church because they allow you to keep paying them your money and time and if you keep doing that, without fail, maybe you can produce enough works to access the mormon grace that will help you feel, right before you die, that maybe, you qualified for the top level of heaven.
Who could possibly love their life when they really believe that life is literally a test? What a horrible way to look at life. Mormon Jesus needs you to hate your life because why else would you put up with church?
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If your name is love show me some grace, yeah
When everything you know
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My Name Is Love
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Posted: 06 August 2014 05:27 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Fear and self-loathing. That's how mormonism works. Open your eyes people...
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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler
Posted: 06 August 2014 04:32 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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The old view: Do things our way or suffer in Hell forever.
The edited version: Do things our way or be cut off from God's presence forever.
The Mormon version: Do things our way or be cut off from everyone you love forever.
I guess that's progress of a sort.
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Why are Mormons such dick heads?
Posted: 04 August 2014 09:21 AM [ Ignore ]
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Kori
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Perhaps because the God they worship, the ancient Egyptian Phalic God, Min, has a huge dick and two 2' long golden dicks growing out of his head?
He's got 4' of dick coming out of his head.
And he's black, ironically.
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“Not sure about a higher power but I definitely believe in re-sizing my images to not be so freaking wide.” Dark Chocolate
Posted: 04 August 2014 10:31 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Kori
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Once they discovered Joseph had identified the Egyptian Phalic God Min, as the God of Mormonism, they got embarased for 98 years and depicted Min with a flacid member, until 1976, the height of the push for the ERA, when Mormons proudly reinserted Min's Dick in their depictions of God. here (pages 50-58) Now they're kind of proud of their God, Min's huge dick.
Here's FAIR LDS's answer to the charge that depicting God as an Egyptian Phalic God Min, with a huge erection is pornographic.
-
This attitude reflected by some is a good example of how our modern, sexually-obsessed society can easily misinterpret religious art. We see an erect penis in a drawing and think "pornography," whereas an ancient Egyptian would have seen one and thought of fertility, virility and life. Hence the depiction of Min with an erection was a sign of his life-giving ability.
You guys are just soooo immature! You can't handle the TRUTH®
Yeah our God has a huge erection and we're proud of it!!!
Get over it, you sick perverts!!!
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“Not sure about a higher power but I definitely believe in re-sizing my images to not be so freaking wide.” Dark Chocolate
Posted: 04 August 2014 10:46 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Lloyd Dobler
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Kori you are in fine form as usual. Thanks for the laugh this morning. I can only add that tbms, especially the super orthodox ones, are in fact, huge dicks. I am thinking of all the men in the church, young and old, who just KNOW all the answers and know that they are the only ones with the RIGHT answers. They go through life judgeing everybody with self righteous assuredness and it is god damn annoying. You listen to a guy like Ralph Hancock on a Dehlin podcast or something and your like, "oh my god that dude is such a dick".
I take comfort that while I may still be an asshole, I am certainly no longer a dick. I am a much nicer and less judgemental person as a non believer now and life is way better because of it. Also, I am more open to learning from people that are different. Sounds simple but it is impossible if you are a wackjob tbm.
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My life has changed in many ways
If your name is love show me some grace, yeah
When everything you know
Falls apart when the wind blows
When everything seems so tough
My name is love
My Name Is Love
Rob Dickensonhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcoppZrxvTI
Posted: 04 August 2014 04:10 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Born Free
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Kori,
It bemuses me that in their 'pride' in celebrating God's 'fertility', while reprimanding everyone else's dirty pornographic minds, they move God's penis/phallus from his groin to the middle of his abdomen, where is might easily be confused for a forearm, unless you were familiar with the art it derived from.
Alternatively, it may actually be a strap-on dildo, and placed with the straps around his shoulders, instead of his legs.
Oh I love Mormon masculinity. It is so,............... so,.................. macho!
The more Mormons struggle to sanitise their messy and profoundly dishonest relationship with sex and their sexually addicted conman founder, the deeper the hole they dig for themselves.
Dig on! Would you like to borrow a shovel?
Daryl
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‘Our life is the creation of our minds, and we do much of that creating in metaphor…. With the wrong metaphor we are deluded; with no metaphor we are blind. ’ Jonathan Haidt
‘and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl
Posted: 04 August 2014 04:13 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Bold Wish
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Lloyd Dobler:
. . . while I may still be an asshole, I am certainly no longer a dick.
That's progress?
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Lloyd Dobler:
There is almost no limit to how bad the church will make you their bitch.
Posted: 04 August 2014 06:12 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Old Kinderhooker
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Bold Wish:
Lloyd Dobler:
. . . while I may still be an asshole, I am certainly no longer a dick.
That's progress?
Being only an asshole is better than being both an asshole and a dick, so I'd say Lloyd has made good progress.
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I say unto you who are not yet free, Remember the power of “No”, for this word alone will keep you free from Morg mind control.
Posted: 04 August 2014 06:48 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
Nephi
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This attitude reflected by some is a good example of how our modern, sexually-obsessed society can easily misinterpret religious art. We see an erect penis in a drawing and think "pornography," whereas an ancient Egyptian would have seen one and thought of fertility, virility and life. Hence the depiction of Min with an erection was a sign of his life-giving ability.
-----------------
Want to bet the secretaries typing this up for the Holy Priesthood Brethren don't have 'bare shoulders' or upper arms while doing so?
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My dog has Health in the navel. marrow in the bones, strength in the loins and in the sinews…
He does not, however - have power in the Priesthood.
That is reserved for the Cat.
Posted: 04 August 2014 07:15 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Old Kinderhooker
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Nephi:
Snip
-----------------
Want to bet the secretaries typing this up for the Holy Priesthood Brethren don't have 'bare shoulders' or upper arms while doing so?
Yet, the Holy Priesthood Brethren have raging erections while watching their dainty fingers type.
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I say unto you who are not yet free, Remember the power of “No”, for this word alone will keep you free from Morg mind control.
Posted: 04 August 2014 07:32 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Stigmata
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-
This attitude reflected by some is a good example of how our modern, sexually-obsessed society can easily misinterpret religious art. We see an erect penis in a drawing and think "pornography," whereas an ancient Egyptian would have seen one and thought of fertility, virility and life. Hence the depiction of Min with an erection was a sign of his life-giving ability.
This statement is so astonishingly stupid. Humans have been sexually obsessed since day 1. Are they really calling that "religious art" and that we are too carnal to think otherwise? Unbelievable. That statement doesn't deny that what Joseph labeled god is actually Min. Kori you are on to something for sure!
Posted: 05 August 2014 03:53 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Tessa
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Huge Dicks? Because they aren't allowed to "relieve" the pressure?
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 05 August 2014 05:58 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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Dogzilla Joy
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Huge dicks?
In your imaginations, maybe.
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Formerly known as “Dogzilla.”
Posted: 05 August 2014 07:46 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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Kori
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Dogzilla Joy:
Huge dicks?
In your imaginations, maybe.
I mean that in the, "Don't be a dick" sense of the word.
Not that Mormons HAVE huge dicks.
I think it's like little guys buying big trucks, they're compensating.
They think if they worship a God with a big dick, that 'endows' them with a huge dick.
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“Not sure about a higher power but I definitely believe in re-sizing my images to not be so freaking wide.” Dark Chocolate
Posted: 05 August 2014 08:23 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
outclassed
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Wait, so size does matter?
Posted: 05 August 2014 09:13 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
Mountainhippie
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Stigmata:
-
This attitude reflected by some is a good example of how our modern, sexually-obsessed society can easily misinterpret religious art. We see an erect penis in a drawing and think "pornography," whereas an ancient Egyptian would have seen one and thought of fertility, virility and life. Hence the depiction of Min with an erection was a sign of his life-giving ability.
This statement is so astonishingly stupid. Humans have been sexually obsessed since day 1. Are they really calling that "religious art" and that we are too carnal to think otherwise? Unbelievable. That statement doesn't deny that what Joseph labeled god is actually Min. Kori you are on to something for sure!
I think we haver two extremes here and the truth is probably more in the middle. While humans have been sexually obsessed since the dawn of man, many cultures have also been much more open, accepting, mature, and in my opinion healthy with regard to attitudes about sexuality.
There have also always been different people at different levels of maturity/kinkiness/prudishness in every society and every time period just as there are today.
I think it is more of a matter of maturity than purity with regard to sexual matters. People most likely weren't as elevated and pure as the first statement implies and possibly not kinky as the second. And if they were "kinky" they were more open and mature about it than much of America and the Morridor in particular are today.
Just one example to back up my argument, one will often find fully exposed shoulders on ancient iconography, egyptian, greek, and roman in particular but I don't think such immages were necessarily sexualized in nature. Contrast that with the current reaction if a nice looking woman in a bikini or even just a sleeveless sun dress somehow slipped past the editor of the Ensign.
Are modern Mormons more sexually pure or just immature?
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Posted: 05 August 2014 04:34 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
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Born Free
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In my experience, many people fail to grasp the difference between a penis and a phallus, and feminine equivalents.
'Primitive art' is rich with representations of outsized penises (is the plural peni?), testes, female breasts, bellies and vulva. Iconic representation of penises go up to as large as the size of building columns. Clealry on such a scale they are no longer representations of penises in any normal sense. Something else is going on.
These are not oversized as in pornographic 'well-hung' or 'BB', but in an iconographic way. They communicate to the brain on a very deep, even pre-conscious level.
Just as research with some birds has shown that if a hugely oversized egg shaped object is placed near their nest, their simple, icon-encoded brain motivates them to attempt to roll the huge fake back into the nest, while they ignore real eggs. Ultra-egginess beats ordinary egginess.
This is the 'shorthand' level at which certain objects are processed by the brain. But of course as arrogant humans who insist on over-rating our thinking abilities, we insist we are beyond such primitive functioning.
But oversized breasts, for instance, function no better that size A breasts as mammary glands, yet for some people their ampleness presses their 'breastiness' mental button, better than a size A. Clearly something else is going on.
And Mormons are particulalry so. Their refusal to even attempt to relate to sexuality in something approximating normality, twists out of shape how they respond to anything sex-related in the world.
So they are obsessive about pre-marital sex, and sex generally, while at the same time insisting 'sex is sacred'.
Daryl
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‘Our life is the creation of our minds, and we do much of that creating in metaphor…. With the wrong metaphor we are deluded; with no metaphor we are blind. ’ Jonathan Haidt
‘and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl
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Native American DNA
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I can’t think for myself…Can I?
Posted: 04 August 2014 10:17 AM [ Ignore ]
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Youngsinglerunning
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Hello Bros and sisters of the un-fold,
So If you read my blog you know i'm dating an AMAZING Never Mo! Frist time dating outside the church and loving it! WOW! The church has the nerve to Brainwash woman into believing that Never Mormon men are all Awful! This is by far the best relationship i have ever been in. I can just be myself! He can be himsel. We are just WEselfs!
Here is my problem. I don't know how I feel about a lot of things. Stuff that the church decided for me...like kids. I have never had to think weather or not i want to have kids. It was always asumed before. My BF has jokingly said many times he does not want to have kids... I'm not sure how i feel about kids...Infact there are alot of things that have suprized me about him. I recently found out he smokes on occasion. Gosh. I really have no idea what i want in a guy. I keep thinking I should just break up with him because we have been dating for 5 months and he has not said "I LOVE YOU" to me.
For those of you who have dated both in the church and out what and how do you do it? I'm so lost...
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I have just begun my Adventures into the secular world. And I’m absolutely clueless. Drinking, Sex, and skirts above the knee:P Check out my blog to hear my story. It keeps me sane and it’s anonymous
http://breakingmormon.blogspot.com/
Posted: 04 August 2014 12:22 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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John E. Baker, III [was GraciesDaddy]
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You have something, Y&SR, that your "sisters" in TSCC do not have: The ability – and desire – to make up your own mind!
'Tis way different than having your dad/bishop/SP/RS Prezz/mom telling you what you HAVE to do!
I wish you well!
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The above post is merely the experience, observation and perspective of a NeverMo, offered in support of the members of PostMormon.org
“Nolite te bastardes carborundorum” aka: “Don’t let the bastards grind you down.” — “The Handmaid’s Tale” ...Margaret Atwood
“Nearly 7 billion people on the planet, hurting one person’s feelings really isn’t a big deal. You’ll find other friends. Better ones that won’t try to force feed you pig shit.” — General Smith
Posted: 04 August 2014 04:51 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Bold Wish
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Congrats ysr - you deserve the best!
I can't answer your question b/c I've never dated any nevermo men.
And I love your intro " Hello Bros and sisters of the un-fold " - lol!
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Lloyd Dobler:
There is almost no limit to how bad the church will make you their bitch.
Posted: 05 August 2014 09:06 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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thalmar
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While on my way out of the church, I dated a nevermo woman and we were recently married. I completely understand the excited feelings you have. I look back and can't imagine ever marrying a faithful LDS person at this point. Being out of the church myself, and being married to a non-LDS person is wonderful.
I echo what has been said in this thread: enjoy the fact that you get to choose for yourself! When I first started leaving the church, even though I knew I didn't have to follow church rules anymore, I still had this part of my brain that felt like I needed to figure out what the 'right' answers were as far as how I should live my life. I felt lost, like I didn't know where to get the right answers anymore. I felt like I was bordering on the edge of complete and total hedonism, because I wasn't used to having this kind of freedom. I was actually scared of becoming a hedonist...that I would just do whatever feels good.
Of course, this didn't happen. I learned, through much turmoil as I battled out of the mental chains of Mormonism, that I can actually trust myself to be a decent person and that I can judge my actions based on how they actually affect myself and others, instead of trying to find some arbitrary right answers from the sky. And not only did I trust myself to judge the real-life consequences of my actions, I also got to choose based on my own personal preferences. What a concept!
If you don't want to date someone who smokes, you don't have to. If you decide you don't mind, then you get to decide that to. It is your life and you will be the one to walk in your shoes.
Interestingly for me, the only two rules I have really decided to follow now are these:
1) Do things that are out of unconditional love for myself
2) Do things that are out of loving my fellow human beings as much as I love myself
(and if there is an afterlife, these two rules are plenty enough to make me happy in the next life)
So if I want to have some beers, all I have to do is decide if how I drink is hurting myself or others. If not, then drink away! There is a lot of freedom to enjoy life when you are simply trying to make the world a better and more loving place, which includes having more fun while you're at it!
Give yourself permission to figure out how you want to live your life. Try to let go of the pressure to conform to some set of rules or expectations. Decide what your values are. It may take time to work through this. It has taken me a lot of work to figure out who I am and how I choose to live my life. I never realized how liberal I am (not just politically). I often find myself being surprised how I simply just don't worry anymore (except for a few post-Mormon hiccups) about being a good or bad person, about doing the right or wrong thing, because I trust myself. I trust myself to do my best, so I don't have to worry about it anymore.
And my wife has helped me more than just about anyone in this world in learning to be myself and enjoy life. I wouldn't trade that for several dozen 8-cow eternal wives.
So, in a nutshell, marrying a heathen was the best thing I ever did.
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Everyone has within them a unique “celestial song” -an inner melody wanting to burst forth…This cosmic orchestra is the collective energy of everything that’s ever lived and everything that’s ever going to live. It’s the life force. It is the power of the universe. It is ecstatically happy. The culmination of this energy is love. Love abounds with its feelings of ecstasy and deep bliss. It is the love holding every atom, every sparrow, every galaxy, everything together. Everyone has forever been a part of this life force and always will. We are already familiar with this at a deep level. We know it. The problem is we bury it under so much apprehension and worry. Don’t worry. Be happy and feel good. There are an infinite number of levels of existence and each level adds to the hum of the cosmic orchestra. It’s as if we’re always spiraling upward until we reach a state of atomic bliss. Life continues. The show goes on in ever varied and unfolding settings.
-Larry Hagman-NDEr
Posted: 05 August 2014 11:18 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
Hermit53
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This post (and comments) reminds me of a paragraph I read recently in a book I was reading that made a statement on this very subject. It said that members "learn to live, follow, and obey the laws, rules, and directions of men as though they come from Christ. Instead of looking to the scriptures, learning what Jesus' views were on things, and making decisions for themselves as a guide in their daily lives, the members are dependent upon the Church leadership for all direction." Making your own decisions doesn't mean you're not a Christian...unless they lead to actions that are plainly contrary to Christian values, but you have to read and study to know what those values and the personality of Christ are instead of being told how to act like a Christian.
‹‹ It wasn’t a "revelation" that ended Mormon polygamy. It was a U.S. Supreme Court decision against the "late corporation" of the LDS Church (links) Actual reasons cited for why women should not receive the priesthood ››
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“Google Issues Apology After Declaring Mormonism To Be A ‘Cult’” (link)
Posted: 31 July 2014 11:40 PM [ Ignore ]
CdnXMo
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http://www.hngn.com/articles/36933/20140723/google-issues-apology-declaring-mormonism-cult.htm
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“It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry.”—Thomas Paine, intellectual, philosopher, writer, and one of the Founding Fathers of the United States of America.
Posted: 01 August 2014 06:41 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Tessa
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Guess those big business mormons got to google. Pity, they were telling the truth.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 01 August 2014 12:55 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Old Kinderhooker
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The real pity is that the article still doesn't use the correct definition of the word "cult" as the basis for the categorization. Forget about doctrinal divergences. Mormonism is a cult because it rapes the minds of its followers and propagates like a virus.
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I say unto you who are not yet free, Remember the power of “No”, for this word alone will keep you free from Morg mind control.
Posted: 01 August 2014 06:35 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Heretic
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Google wimped out and caved into pressure. Mormonism is indeed a cult. Not because its Christian doctrines are different from more average Christian doctrines, but because Mormonism is a religion which demands an unusually large amount of time, money, energy, loyalty, and obedience from its members. Mormonism influences or controls virtually every aspect of its members' lives. These things are what makes it a cult.
Posted: 02 August 2014 03:12 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Bold Wish
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Heretic:
Mormonism is indeed a cult . . . [snippy snip snip] . . . because Mormonism is a religion which demands an unusually large amount of time, money, energy, loyalty, and obedience from its members. Mormonism influences or controls virtually every aspect of its members' lives. These things are what makes it a cult.
I agree but also because of the false promises the cult provides in return for the demanding, total control behavior.
It's pretty simple when I ask my TBM friends: "Okay, so you don't think your religious organization is a cult even though they control your underwear, require you swear with an oath you will give all your money, time and other resources to their organization, discourage you from reading facts about their history, tell you to follow only their prophet wile doubting any valid and reasonable doubts, and they will kick you out if you begin publicly asking questions about their thirty-something year old founder who claimed god commanded him to have sex with a fourteen year old, two sixteen year olds, and women who were already married?
No, you're right, that's not a cult, it's a total mind f**k."
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Lloyd Dobler:
There is almost no limit to how bad the church will make you their bitch.
Posted: 02 August 2014 06:05 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Suspicious Minds
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If you had asked me if the Mormon church is a cult 8 years ago I would have replied with an adamant NO! I would have taken great offense to the statement had you asked me and I likely would have disassociated myself from you and shunned you.
As a faithful Latter-day Saint for over 44 years, I held strongly to the following beliefs:
I will follow the prophet and Church leaders without question, and have faith in the beliefs, ideology, and practices as the literal Truth, and as Heavenly Father's law.
I am afraid of losing my membership in the Church and risk being punished if I question, doubt, and or show signs of dissent. It is wrong to criticize the leaders or the Church, even if the criticism is true.
I will read my scriptures, go to church every week, do my home teaching, go to the temple, and do everything that I am asked to do because it makes me happy and I will one day be judged for my good works.
I will follow the leadership's counsel at all times, even when it dictates how I should think, act, and feel; who I should date, where I should marry, and what types of clothes I should wear; how I should spend my free time, how my family should spend our free time together and what types of extra-curricular activities are appropriate; what I should or should not read, and what food and drinks I should consume or avoid.
I believe the Church to be the only true church on Earth. I believe membership to the Church and faithfulness to its leaders and teachings are the only way to find true happiness and eternal life. I believe it is my duty to share my beliefs with my non-member neighbors, coworkers, friends and strangers, so they can have the opportunity to be saved and receive blessings.
I believe in supporting the Church even if it goes against what the world may believe. For example, I don’t believe in giving marriage rights to those practicing same-sex attraction if the prophet says that it shouldn’t be allowed.
I believe the only authority the prophet or Church leaders are accountable to is the Lord and no one else.
I believe Heavenly Father will test our faithfulness to Him by asking us through his servants to do things that others may find are reprehensible or unethical. For example, although I may not like it, I would support polygamy if the Church reinstated it. I believe we do not have a full understanding of what is needed to achieve exaltation, and all things Heavenly Father commands us to do are for our best interest and will enable us to return to His presence and have everlasting life. I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.
I will keep myself worthy to receive blessings in this life and next. I believe those who succumb to worldly temptations or disregard the prophet and Church teachings are not worthy to receive personal happiness in this life or be an eternal family after death. I believe it is appropriate to give a personal accounting on a regular basis of my thoughts, words and actions to a Bishop, for he has the authority to determine my worthiness to participate at church and receive blessings. He also has the authority to punish me if I begin to break the Lord’s commandments and sin.
I believe all Church members are my brothers and sisters. I believe the Bishop is the father of our ward and helps strengthen our "family" by spending hours together studying, listening and praying, going to the temple together and visiting each other in our individual homes to reinforce what we have studied and heard. I do not want to discuss or hear anything negative about my beliefs, and view them as hostile attacks from an enemy who wants to destroy my faith and relationship with Heavenly Father. I will also realign my life with whatever the Church asks of me.
I will willingly put my life on hold for 2 years in an effort to bring new members into the Church. I will continue to do missionary work throughout my life and will share the gospel with everyone I meet. I pray for missionary opportunities.
I will willingly pay 10% of my gross income to the Church for tithing and will donate each month to fast offerings, missionary fund, etc., to build up the kingdom of God. I believe paying a full tithe makes me worthy to participate at church and enter the holy temple, and participate in special meetings. I will pay the Church first, even if I or my family must make personal sacrifices and go without basic necessities of life. I have no doubt the Lord will bless us for making this financial sacrifice. Heavenly Father will open the windows of heaven and there will be not room enough to receive his blessings.
I believe it is an honor to receive callings in the Church from inspired leaders through direct revelation, and the inordinate amounts of time expected to devote to these callings or Church activities will bring me and my family many blessings.
All of my true and closest friends are LDS. I will only date/marry an LDS person in the temple. I have little in common with non-members, and am careful not to associate with non-members unless they share my same moral background or express interest in learning more about the gospel.
I can't imagine not being a member of the Church. My whole life is tied into the Church. If my membership were to be revoked, it would be comparable to death. All would be lost and life would become meaningless. My only hope would be for me to repent of my sins and be forgiven by those in authority over me so I could be re-baptized. My eternal salvation is dependant upon my membership in the Church, and I will never doubt it or even consider leaving, no matter what.
So what of the question, "Is the Mormon Church a cult?" We can either retreat and further entrench our long held beliefs and views, or we can consider the possibility of that claim and examine it, scrutinize it, study it, research it and draw our own conclusions. Do the following "cult characteristics" apply to my formerly held beliefs?
http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm
http://freedomofmind.com/Info/BITE/bitemodel.php
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BjecRzDoHg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az4tE2eLoKc
1. The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.
2. Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
3. The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).
4. The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).
5. The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.
6. The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).
7. The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).
8. The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.
9. Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.
10. The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
11. The group is preoccupied with making money.
12. Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.
13. Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
14. The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.
Without any doubt or hesitation I can in the most clearest and unrefrained terms I know, declare I was self deluded and experienced first hand the harmful effects of cult mind control. I only needed to open my eyes, heart and mind to the possibility that the Mormon church wasn't what it claimed to be. I have my integrity and honesty intact, I am happy, my marriage is strong and life is sweet! Where we go from here is a mystery. The past is history. The present is a gift and I'm living it!
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“We discover in ourselves what others hide from us and we recognize in others what we hide from ourselves.” Vauvenargues (1715 - 1747)
Posted: 02 August 2014 07:07 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Baroque Dust
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How many presbyterians do you know that have recovery boards? How many 'ex-methodists' do you know? How many people that come out of the Protestant church need therapy. I do get Jehovah Withnesses, Catholics and Evangelicals are a cult. What is a cult? Any organization that does not let you leave with your dignity intact. Mormonism is indeed a cult. No apology necessary, google.
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“Re-examine all you have been told…discard what insults your soul.” Walt Whitman
Posted: 02 August 2014 07:49 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Heretic
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Maybe Google isn't very sorry, because it has not changed anything. I just did a Google search again using the words "Is Mormonism a cult?" And came up with the same result the article cites:
"Is Mormonism a cult? | LDS christian or cult? | Latter Day ... carm.org/is-mormonism-cult by matt slick - Yes, Mormonism is a cult, a non-Christian cult because Mormonism denies essential biblical teachings and adds new, false doctrines. Mormonism, also called ..."
Posted: 02 August 2014 07:56 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Baroque Dust
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Heretic:
Maybe Google isn't very sorry, because it has not changed anything. I just did a Google search again using the words "Is Mormonism a cult?" And came up with the same result
Awesome Sauce
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Posted: 02 August 2014 08:17 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Ex_aedibus
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While Mormonism may not be a cult in the same way Scientology® or the Unification Church is, there are also some very problematic teachings which have not been resolved.
One of the most problematic of these are the teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, especially his talk on ''14 Principles of Following the Prophets''.
https://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/fourteen-fundamentals-in-following-the-prophet?lang=eng&query=following+the+prophet
This talk requires without exception the absolute assent of intellect and wil to whatever the prophet says. While Mormons may say that the prophet is not infallible, they treat, and are encouraged to treat each and every utterance of his as divinely inspired. We know that this is not true. If it were, the astronauts of Apollo 11 would have found men dressed like Quakers there.
Lamentably, it was recycled in a talk given by Claudio R.M. Costa in 2010.
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/obedience-to-the-prophets?lang=eng&query=following+the+prophet
It's stuff like this which makes everyone think that they belong to a cult.
Posted: 03 August 2014 05:13 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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Mormonism is unquestionably a cult according to the checklist from the International Cultic Studies Society that "Suspicious Minds" quoted above.
The only item that one might question is the third, "Mind-altering practices," but I am of the opinion that Fast and Testimony Meetings certainly match its subsequent description.
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LDS and JW Scripture updates coincide
Posted: 01 August 2014 02:11 PM [ Ignore ]
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Alright I'm probably creating a relationship between two things that are likely completely coincidental. However this coincidence has occurred twice in the past 35 yrs.
1981:
Mormons introduce topical guide and footnotes, noting references between all church scriptures
JW incorporates their 'Bible Topics for Discussion' into their Bible.
2013:
Mormons update introductions, chapter headings, and footnote references in their scriptures. Changes including the de-emphasis of Native Americans as THE descendants of Lehi.
JW publishes new edition of their Bible updating introductions and changing footnotes. One footnote change occludes the concept of celebrating holidays. (old footnote mentions that Jesus celebrated Hanukah, new footnote reference is jesus celebrated 'winter festival'. Now the text is more in harmony with JW practices and preachings.) [This footnote change was mentioned by two ex-JW at minute 25:23 of their vlog. JW dates for changes were found in Wikipedia.]
I understand that the morg introduced many changes to the 2013 edition in 2006 in their online versions of the text, but the fact that the hard copy publications of both the JW and the LDS occur at the same time seems suspicious to me.
Ooo, I got it both churches are true. Both of their elders were inspired by gawd to make these changes and since gawd thought the change was important they occurred at the same time.
Posted: 01 August 2014 09:13 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Flora:
Alright I'm probably creating a relationship between two things that are likely completely coincidental. However this coincidence has occurred twice in the past 35 yrs.
1981:
Mormons introduce topical guide and footnotes, noting references between all church scriptures
JW incorporates their 'Bible Topics for Discussion' into their Bible.
2013:
Mormons update introductions, chapter headings, and footnote references in their scriptures. Changes including the de-emphasis of Native Americans as THE descendants of Lehi.
JW publishes new edition of their Bible updating introductions and changing footnotes. One footnote change occludes the concept of celebrating holidays. (old footnote mentions that Jesus celebrated Hanukah, new footnote reference is jesus celebrated 'winter festival'. Now the text is more in harmony with JW practices and preachings.) [This footnote change was mentioned by two ex-JW at minute 25:23 of their vlog. JW dates for changes were found in Wikipedia.]
I understand that the morg introduced many changes to the 2013 edition in 2006 in their online versions of the text, but the fact that the hard copy publications of both the JW and the LDS occur at the same time seems suspicious to me.
Ooo, I got it both churches are true. Both of their elders were inspired by gawd to make these changes and since gawd thought the change was important they occurred at the same time.
Or...maybe both churches are of the devil?```` It is interesting. Wonder how it happened?
Edit: Corrected a mispelled word and wording. Gee. Tired last night.
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Posted: 02 August 2014 03:07 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Or maybe they're run by the same person or shadow corporation. Everyone knows that when a product has direct competition with a similar product, both products sell better. Pepsi and Coke benefit from the ad wars they have with one another. And in my old home town there were two resturants who constantly made fun of each other in their ads, and then it turned out they were owned by the same guy.
So, this is my favorite conspiracy theory in this case. :D
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Posted: 02 August 2014 03:23 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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I dunno. It seems to me you're already in trouble when your frame of reference is Jehovah's Witnesses.
[Sorry to be irreverent about JWs but we live close to one of their Kingdom Halls and get tracted at least once every 4-6 months so they wore away any patina of politesse several years ago.]
Posted: 02 August 2014 03:30 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Curious, then you might get a kick out of this recent episode of Mormon Expressions which held a contest to see who was weirder, JWs or Mormons. It might be cathartic.
http://mormonexpression.com/2014/06/16/episode-258/
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Posted: 02 August 2014 05:59 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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I have three JW famlies as neighbors. I see that religion taking from them just as LDS, Inc does. A few months ago, one of the men told me they were sure going to miss me in heaven. He was a bit presistent. I told him not to worry about me one bit. I would be just fine!
One friend--I like all of these people--asked me to study the Bible with her. I usually keep it nuteral. This time I told her she did not want to study with me as reading about the god of the Bible and his bi-polar behavior of killing his children instead of coming in person and talking to them would just make me angry. The condoning of rape and murder in the Bible was not OK. Told her there was a lot of good in the Bible but I thought men wrote it and I disagreed with at least half of it. Told her the story of Abraham being told to kill his son was just horrible and evil and had nothing to do with god. She took it well. We are still friends but I wonder if she is afraid to take me to church with her. She should be. They would show me the door pretty fast. Oh how I love being a PostMo and speaking my mind!
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Latter Gay Saints
Posted: 25 July 2014 12:10 PM [ Ignore ]
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Ex_aedibus
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The Phoenix New Times recently had an article about homosexuality and Mormons. Two of the people featured are devout Latter-day Saints with two gay sons. Needless to say, their perspectives have shifted significantly.
http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2014/07/mormon-church-accepts-homosexuals.php
Posted: 27 July 2014 05:11 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Interesting article. Thanks for the post.
from the article.....
The Phoenix-area Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints declined to comment on ALL Arizona and referred to the church's official website when asked about its official stance on homosexuality, so it's hard to know what's the thinking on this.
It's not hard to know. They think what they are told to think.
As with most matters in the Mormon Church, a lot has to do with local leadership, so if you have liberal local leaders, it is possible to be actively gay and still get assignments to serve the church -- but it is far from frequent. In fact, Hendrickson and other ALL Arizona members who have chosen to be actively LGBT say they no longer have callings, despite still being welcome to attend worship,
One little positive for LGBT who still attend - no callings!
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Posted: 27 July 2014 05:25 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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dave (e_nomo):
Interesting article. Thanks for the post.
from the article.....
The Phoenix-area Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints declined to comment on ALL Arizona and referred to the church's official website when asked about its official stance on homosexuality, so it's hard to know what's the thinking on this.
It's not hard to know. They think what they are told to think.
As with most matters in the Mormon Church, a lot has to do with local leadership, so if you have liberal local leaders, it is possible to be actively gay and still get assignments to serve the church -- but it is far from frequent. In fact, Hendrickson and other ALL Arizona members who have chosen to be actively LGBT say they no longer have callings, despite still being welcome to attend worship,
One little positive for LGBT who still attend - no callings!
I get that that's a joke and probably reflects some genuine relief at being able to keep the church at arm's length. But, think about it. It's another way of saying that people are tolerated in a compromised, second class status which, conveniently, can be confirmed by anyone who's interested enough to inquire.
The LDS seems very accomplished in establishing its unattainable elite and defining the 95% who are not part of it:
• women, except by proxy
• people with non-normative gender identity
• converts
• people married to non-members
• people who don't come from pioneer stock
• those who don't have the right callings
• those of less conservative political leanings
• the folks who didn't jump through all the hoops
What kind of culture is it that keeps reinforcing the idea that it's members don't measure up? How healthy is it to give up your autonomy to that?
Posted: 27 July 2014 06:16 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Curious NeverMo:
dave (e_nomo):
Interesting article. Thanks for the post.
from the article.....
The Phoenix-area Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints declined to comment on ALL Arizona and referred to the church's official website when asked about its official stance on homosexuality, so it's hard to know what's the thinking on this.
It's not hard to know. They think what they are told to think.
As with most matters in the Mormon Church, a lot has to do with local leadership, so if you have liberal local leaders, it is possible to be actively gay and still get assignments to serve the church -- but it is far from frequent. In fact, Hendrickson and other ALL Arizona members who have chosen to be actively LGBT say they no longer have callings, despite still being welcome to attend worship,
One little positive for LGBT who still attend - no callings!
I get that that's a joke and probably reflects some genuine relief at being able to keep the church at arm's length. But, think about it. It's another way of saying that people are tolerated in a compromised, second class status which, conveniently, can be confirmed by anyone who's interested enough to inquire.
The LDS seems very accomplished in establishing its unattainable elite and defining the 95% who are not part of it:
• women, except by proxy
• people with non-normative gender identity
• converts
• people married to non-members
• people who don't come from pioneer stock
• those who don't have the right callings
• those of less conservative political leanings
• the folks who didn't jump through all the hoops
What kind of culture is it that keeps reinforcing the idea that it's members don't measure up? How healthy is it to give up your autonomy to that?
Yeah, I did mean it as a little joke. I am gay and can't imagine any circumstance where I'd want a calling. But you make an excellent point - it's absolutely another open mark of the second class status of mormon LGBTs.
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Posted: 28 July 2014 03:07 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Being homosexual is nothing a penile plethysmograph can't take care of. After all, no less than Apostles of The Lord have stated homosexuality is a choice. Strap'em and shock'em and they will choose the babe.
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Posted: 29 July 2014 02:38 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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dave (e_nomo):
As with most matters in the Mormon Church, a lot has to do with local leadership, so if you have liberal local leaders, it is possible to be actively gay and still get assignments to serve the church -- but it is far from frequent. In fact, Hendrickson and other ALL Arizona members who have chosen to be actively LGBT say they no longer have callings, despite still being welcome to attend worship,
One little positive for LGBT who still attend - no callings!
Does this also mean that they are being excluded from ward cleaning duties?
Posted: 29 July 2014 07:35 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Does this also mean that they are being excluded from ward cleaning duties?
Since the restoration of the gospel in this dispensation, from time to time there have been made administrative decisions by the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve acting unitedly in their roles as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators.
In order to hasten the work of expanding the real estate holdings of this Church, it has become necessary for faithful members of the Church to take a more active role in the maintenance, cleaning, and upkeep of our buildings.
Acting unitedly by revelation as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators, we have determined that all faithful members are to accomplish this by regularly cleaning the temples and meetinghouses of the Church. Those who clean the temples must hold temple reccommends. Temple recommends are not, however, required to participate in the blessings of cleaning the meetinghouses. Additionally, after much prayer, we have determined that all members, regardless of sexual orientation, are to share in the blessings of church cleaning and in the blessings of paying tithing. These blessings are for all members, irregardless of whether or not they have formal church callings. These blessings of paying tithing and cleaning church buildings may be revoked should a member with same-sex attractions act on them.
May the Lord bless you as you clean his meetinghouses and temples.
Sincerely,
The First Presidency
Posted: 29 July 2014 08:16 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Ex_aedibus:
Does this also mean that they are being excluded from ward cleaning duties?
Since the restoration of the gospel in this dispensation, from time to time there have been made administrative decisions by the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve acting unitedly in their roles as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators.
In order to hasten the work of expanding the real estate holdings of this Church, it has become necessary for faithful members of the Church to take a more active role in the maintenance, cleaning, and upkeep of our buildings.
Acting unitedly by revelation as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators, we have determined that all faithful members are to accomplish this by regularly cleaning the temples and meetinghouses of the Church. Those who clean the temples must hold temple reccommends. Temple recommends are not, however, required to participate in the blessings of cleaning the meetinghouses. Additionally, after much prayer, we have determined that all members, regardless of sexual orientation, are to share in the blessings of church cleaning and in the blessings of paying tithing. These blessings are for all members, irregardless of whether or not they have formal church callings. These blessings of paying tithing and cleaning church buildings may be revoked should a member with same-sex attractions act on them.
May the Lord bless you as you clean his meetinghouses and temples.
Sincerely,
The First Presidency
OOooo, this brings all sorts of images to mind!! I will partake!
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Posted: 29 July 2014 08:20 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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It seems as though the church is getting the message that sexual attraction is beyond the control of the individual, and that just saying it is a choice will not make it so.
My brother is Gay. As a TBM I had no idea how to process this, until I got ahold of the facts from the scientificl community. Now I have a Human Rights Campaign sticker on the back of my car and I tell all of my aquaintenances about my amazing brother. Talking about my brother is now a natural part of talking about myself.
I wonder, why is it that when the church receives additional information they almost never act appropriately. If folks with same gender attraction arrive on the planet with this preference, and this is becoming clearer and clearer to the scientific community, why not expand the view, ammend the doctrine, and move on with the rest of humanity? It certainly sounds better than being 30 years late to the civil rights movement of the time.
Posted: 29 July 2014 08:44 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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I can hardly wait for Brother Jake to make a video about how the church is not homophobic. It will be comedy gold.
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“Group Conducts Mass Resignation From Mormon Church To Protest Excommunication Of Kate Kelly” (quote + link)
Posted: 25 July 2014 01:26 PM [ Ignore ]
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Today's Huffington Post report begins with: "Nearly 500 Mormons joined a Facebook event for a mass resignation from the LDS Church on Thursday to protest the recent excommunication of Kate Kelly and disciplining of John Dehlin, two prominent activists in the Mormon community."
No doubt, there will be more fed-up Latter-day Saints leaving the misleading, misogynistic Mormon cult in the future.
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“Statement by the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on the Negro Question” (quote + link)
Posted: 24 July 2014 01:24 PM [ Ignore ]
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I recently came across this online:
"Statement by the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on the Negro Question" on August 17, 1951.
"The attitude of the Church with reference to negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct communication from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that negroes may become members of the church but that they are not entitled to the priesthood at the present time. The prophets of the Lord have made several statements as to the operation of the principle. President Brigham Young said: 'Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a skin of blackness? It comes in consequence of their father rejecting the power of the holy priesthood, and the law of God. They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children [of Adam] have received their blessings in the holy priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain [i.e., Negroes], and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to.'
"President Wilford Woodruff made the following statement: 'The day will come when all that [Negro] race will be redeemed and possess all the blessings which we now have.'
"The position of the Church regarding the negro may be understood when another doctrine of the Church is kept in mind, namely, that the conduct of spirits in the premortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality, and that while the details of this principle have not been made known, the principle itself indicates that the coming to this earth and taking on mortality is a privilege that is given to those who maintained their first estate [i.e., accepted the proposed plan of the spirit Jesus (a.k.a. Jehovah), and rejected Lucifer's plan of forced obedience during mortality]; and that the worth of the privilege is so great that spirits are willing to come to earth and take on bodies no matter what the handicap may be as to the kind of bodies they are to secure; and that among the handicaps, failure to the right to enjoy in mortality the blessings of the priesthood, is a handicap to assume in order that they might come to earth. Under this principle there is no injustice whatsoever involved in this deprivation as to the holding of the priesthood by the negroes."
This quoted text and the remainder of the statement is at https://archive.org/stream/MormonismAndTheNegro#page/n73/mode/2up and the next page (18).
Not surprisingly, the statement issued by LDS so-called "prophets, seers, and revelators" failed to explain why spirits of not-yet-incarnated Negroes in Mormonism's "premortal existence" would be "willing to come to earth and take on bodies no matter what the handicap may be as to the kind of bodies they are to secure."
For millions of blacks, was "taking on mortality" really "a privilege" when their "coming to this earth" involved being kidnapped from their villages in Africa, shackled in ghastly conditions in the bowels of slave ships, transported to the Americas where they were roughly inspected and sold like cattle, forced to toil on plantations to make white men rich, and subjected to beatings and other cruel physical acts if they resisted enslavement? In the supposedly 'inspired' minds of Caucasian "prophets" running the Mormon Church in 1951, the answer was apparently yes. Go figure.
More info.:
LDS apostle "Elder" Bruce McConkie wrote the following Latter-day Saint 'truths' in his encyclopedic volume, Mormon Doctrine:
"Though he was a rebel and an associate of Lucifer in the pre-existence, and though he was a liar from the beginning whose name was Perdition, Cain managed to obtain the privilege of mortal birth....
"As a result of his rebellion, Cain was cursed with a dark skin; he became the father of the Negroes, and those spirits who are not worthy to receive the priesthood are born through his lineage. He became the first mortal to be cursed as a son of perdition. As a result of his mortal birth he is assured of a tangible body of flesh and bones in eternity, a fact which will enable him to rule over Satan." (1966 ed., p. 109)
In 1967, "Elder" N. Eldon Tanner, a Mormon apostle and First Presidency counselor, told SEATTLE Magazine: “The Church has no intention of changing its doctrine on the Negro. Throughout the history of the original Christian church, the Negro never held the priesthood. There’s really nothing we can do to change this. It’s a law of God.” (Ref. http://mormonthink.com/QUOTES/antiblack.htm )
Fast-forward to 2014 and the misleading LDS Church's "Race and the Priesthood" essay, which says:
"Despite this modern reality, for much of its history—from the mid-1800s until 1978—the Church did not ordain men of black African descent to its priesthood or allow black men or women to participate in temple endowment or sealing ordinances.
"The Church was established in 1830, during an era of great racial division in the United States. At the time, many people of African descent lived in slavery, and racial distinctions and prejudice were not just common but customary among white Americans. Those realities, though unfamiliar and disturbing today, influenced all aspects of people’s lives, including their religion. Many Christian churches of that era, for instance, were segregated along racial lines. From the beginnings of the Church, people of every race and ethnicity could be baptized and received as members. Toward the end of his life, Church founder Joseph Smith openly opposed slavery. There has never been a Churchwide policy of segregated congregations.
"During the first two decades of the Church’s existence, a few black men were ordained to the priesthood. One of these men, Elijah Abel, also participated in temple ceremonies in Kirtland, Ohio, and was later baptized as proxy for deceased relatives in Nauvoo, Illinois. There is no evidence that any black men were denied the priesthood during Joseph Smith’s lifetime.
"In 1852, President Brigham Young publicly announced that men of black African descent could no longer be ordained to the priesthood, though thereafter blacks continued to join the Church through baptism and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. Following the death of Brigham Young, subsequent Church presidents restricted blacks from receiving the temple endowment or being married in the temple. Over time, Church leaders and members advanced many theories to explain the priesthood and temple restrictions."
xx
It's official: What was previously "direct communication from the Lord", "the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization", and "a law of God" were in fact mere "theories" created by "Church leaders and members."
Bear that in mind, lurking Latter-day Saints, the next time Mormon patriarchal pricks tell you that paying tithing, accepting and "magnifying" callings, and doing other things to support "the Church" is "God's will" or a "commandment" from the invisible "Lord."
My Dec. 6/13 post, "The strange history of Mormon ‘truths’ about ‘cursed’ blacks, including Nelson Mandela," may also be of interest.
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Posted: 24 July 2014 02:31 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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Excellent post! Allow me to extend the logic (or lack thereof):
-
First presidency statement, 1951: "The attitude of the Church with reference to negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct communication from the Lord..."
Anonymous essay on church website, 2014: "Brigham Young announced a policy restricting men of black African descent from priesthood ordination ... President McKay reversed a prior policy that required prospective priesthood holders to trace their lineage out of Africa ... Church leaders believed that a revelation from God was needed to alter the policy ..."
So, mormons, what will it be? Was it a policy or was it doctrine?
-
First presidency statement, 1951: "The position of the Church regarding the negro may be understood when another doctrine of the Church is kept in mind, namely, that the conduct of spirits in the premortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality, ... the coming to this earth and taking on mortality is a privilege that is given to those who maintained their first estate [i.e., accepted the proposed plan of the spirit Jesus (a.k.a. Jehovah) ... failure to the right to enjoy in mortality the blessings of the priesthood, is a handicap to assume in order that they might come to earth. Under this principle there is no injustice whatsoever involved in this deprivation as to the holding of the priesthood by the negroes."
Anonymous essay on church website, 2014: "Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects actions in a premortal life..."
So, mormons, what will it be? Was it a theory or was it doctrine?
-
Brigham Young, prophet of God: "Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110).
"Cain slew his brother.... and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race – that they should be the ‘servant of servants,’ and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam’s children are brought up to that favorable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, pp. 290-291)
Anonymous essay on church website, 2014: "Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin ... reflects actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else. Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form."
So, mormons, what will it be? Was it a theory or was it the law of God? Was it racism or was it a true curse from God?
-
Current mormon scripture, the Pearl of Great Price, still cannonized and accepted as doctrine: “...there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.” (Moses 7:8)
Current mormon scripture, the Pearl of Great Price, still cannonized and accepted as doctrine, confimed as recently as July 2014: "...and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land. Now, Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood, notwithstanding the Pharaohs would fain claim it from Noah, through Ham ... with the blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood." (Abraham 1:4,5,26)
So, mormons, was the priesthood ban and curse upon black people merely theory and policy, or is it doctrine as STILL contained in your canonized scripture?
YOU CANNOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!!!
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Posted: 24 July 2014 02:31 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Yeah, this pushed one of my buttons...
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Posted: 24 July 2014 06:31 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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dave (e_nomo)
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Thank you for these posts, CdnXmo and MU.
This alone is enough to show that the mormon church is not what it claims to be.
These are not just different points of view. Someone is blatantly telling LIES here.
I remember as a missionary telling people about the ways to find the one true church of Jesus Christ. One of the ways was never that the true church would tell lies.
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Posted: 24 July 2014 08:42 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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John E. Baker, III [was GraciesDaddy]
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One question: Where did Brigham find shoes & handbag to match his misogyny and racism?
Gotta keep up with fashion.
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The above post is merely the experience, observation and perspective of a NeverMo, offered in support of the members of PostMormon.org
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Posted: 25 July 2014 06:47 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Oh, that Brigham. He's a real peach.
Every time I hear the word "negro" in relation to Mormonism, I can't help but think of the time Colbert had fun with it the time Harry Reid used the word.
There are many reasons to leave Mormonism in the dust, and its racism was one of the first issues that set me on the path out...
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No persecution surrounding the First Vision
Posted: 21 July 2014 11:47 PM [ Ignore ]
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eddie
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Joseph was not persecuted as claimed.
Since Joseph never told anyone about the vision, he wasn't persecuted. There is simply no evidence that he was ever persecuted for the First Vision.
Here's what Joseph said officially about it:
"Some few days after I had this vision, I happened to be in company with one of the Methodist preachers, who was very active in the before mentioned religious excitement; and, conversing with him on the subject of religion, I took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had had. I was greatly surprised at his behavior; he treated my communication not only lightly, but with great contempt, saying it was all of the devil, that there were no such things as visions or revelations in these days; that all such things had ceased with the apostles, and that there would never be any more of them.
"I soon found, however, that my telling the story had excited a great deal of prejudice against me among professors of religion, and was the cause of great persecution, which continued to increase; and though I was an obscure boy, only between fourteen and fifteen years of age, and my circumstances in life such as to make a boy of no consequence in the world, yet men of high standing would take notice sufficient to excite the public mind against me, and create a bitter persecution; and this was common among all the sects-all united to persecute me.
"It caused me serious reflection then, and often has since, how very strange it was that an obscure boy, of a little over fourteen years of age, and one, too, who was doomed to the necessity of obtaining a scanty maintenance by his daily labor, should be thought a character of sufficient importance to attract the attention of the great ones of the most popular sects of the day, and in a manner to create in them a spirit of the most bitter persecution and dreviling. But strange or not, so it was, and it was often the cause of great sorrow to myself."
How strange that Joseph says that the neighborhood knew enough about it to persecute this obscure boy, but his own family hadn't heard about it at all. If Joseph's story had actually occurred and caused said excitement, someone would have mentioned it. No one did.
Joseph was persecuted, but not for his first vision account in 1820, but rather from talking about treasure digging and later, in 1827, about the golden plates. No one, friend or foe, in New York or Pennsylvania remembers either that there was "great persecution" or even that Joseph claimed to have had a vision. Not even his family remembers it. It is likely that the vision was unremarkably similar to many other epiphanies of that era and no one took notice of it.
God & Christ visit a young boy, and because of local gossip, he withheld that info from his family. And yet then he receives another visitation three years later from an angel, and immediately he tells his family? Why the inconsistencies?
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Posted: 22 July 2014 06:10 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Tessa
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He didn't want his family to know he'd been "taking the mushroom."
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 22 July 2014 10:04 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
Nephi
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Why do you insist on ruining a perfectly good story with the Truth?
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He does not, however - have power in the Priesthood.
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Posted: 23 July 2014 09:00 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Quartersawn
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I think Grant Palmer, a former CES instructor for 34 years, does a great job of presenting this lack of evidence in his book, An Insiders View of Mormon Origins.
Newbies should pick up a copy from Amazon.
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Why would you consider a man a prophet whose morals are worse than your own? Having claimed to commune with deity, be visited by angels and receive revelations, should he not be held to a higher standard? —me
Posted: 23 July 2014 09:48 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Tessa
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His mother sure couldn't "memorize" her lines very well.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
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Mormons are embarrassed of their own doctrines, rightfully so.
Posted: 20 July 2014 09:52 PM [ Ignore ]
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Kori
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New shocking Mormon development:
Mormons disown scriptures, disown their own God, rather than deny Joseph, on film!!! Video coming soon!!!
They don't want to talk with anybody who knows anything about their Doomsday CULT that worships a Phalic God of Egypt.
Any wonder kids draw big penises on Mormon churches whenever they graphitti churches? ITS BECAUSE THE LITERALLY WORSHIP PENIS!!!"
Especially PENIS Holders!!!
I'm going to print out pictures of this from now on,
In Full Color 11x17 as a leave behind with them to study and be able to defend.
Put this on the flip side and laminate it.
With
The LAW of the Priesthood superimposed over it.
-
"The word of God,"
The New and Everlasting Covenant
D&C 132: 61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.
63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.
64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law."
The silent majority, is irrelevant when these bastards remain silent as kids are raped by their penis worshipping doomsday CULT.
Mitt Romney's making a cumback?
We'll see about that.
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“Not sure about a higher power but I definitely believe in re-sizing my images to not be so freaking wide.” Dark Chocolate
Posted: 20 July 2014 10:47 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
Ninon de Lenclos
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There is phallic worship in Hinduism too...
...Shiva's phallus (the Shiva lingam), to be precise.
Not all Hindus are Shaivites (more or less: members of the "Shiva" school of Hindu philosophy), but all Hindus honor the Shiva lingam. If you go to a Hindu temple dedicated to any Hindu god or goddess (so may well not be a Shaivite temple), there will be a place somewhere (might be in an alcove inside, or maybe outside the front door in a protected area) where there is a Shiva lingam (often a very large Shiva lingam) that can be honored by anyone who desires to do this. (You pour water, or melted butter, or milk over it while you say a prayer in Sanskrit.)
Many Hindu households (and, again, these are not necessarily self-identified Shaivite households), have a Shiva lingam as one of the several deities on the family shrine, and usually someone in the household, at least semi-regularly, does the pouring-and-Sanskrit thing.
Shiva lingams are "everywhere" in Hinduism!!! (They're worn as jewelry, etc.)
It's just a natural part of Hindu religious life.
Posted: 21 July 2014 06:19 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
Nephi
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Two requests.
Can you put the marriage dates for the 'sister wives' on the chart?
Can you make a link where we can download a much higher resolution copy of them so we can print them out idividually to post on a bulletin board or such?
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My dog has Health in the navel. marrow in the bones, strength in the loins and in the sinews…
He does not, however - have power in the Priesthood.
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Posted: 21 July 2014 06:45 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Swearing Elder
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Nephi:
Two requests.
Can you put the marriage dates for the 'sister wives' on the chart?
Can you make a link where we can download a much higher resolution copy of them so we can print them out idividually to post on a bulletin board or such?
Here's the original source of that infographic:
http://www.mormoninfographics.com/2012/09/the-many-wives-of-joseph-smith.html
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Posted: 21 July 2014 08:55 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Kori
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What is most shocking to me as a former missionary is the tactic now employed by missionaries, of denying their own "Word of God' they pretend like they know nothing about the BoA or D&C. They don't even reference them at all or even possess them. They just distance themselves from them as fast as they can.
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“Not sure about a higher power but I definitely believe in re-sizing my images to not be so freaking wide.” Dark Chocolate
Posted: 21 July 2014 10:20 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Quartersawn
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Ok, time for a lesson on placing graphics.
These pictures are way too big, I can't get around, and I've tried three different browsers (chrome (my default), Firefox (2nd choice), and Internet Exploder)
Unless I don't have something turned on, let me know.
In the INSERT/EDIT IMAGE icon above, after placing the link for the picture, select the APPEARANCE tab, and in the dimension boxes, change the right box (horizontal) to around 500. The left box (vertical) will adjust to keep the ratio correct.
This was a large image, over 1300 horizontal.
I set it at 500 (the second number in the dimension box).
Let me see if it works.
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Why would you consider a man a prophet whose morals are worse than your own? Having claimed to commune with deity, be visited by angels and receive revelations, should he not be held to a higher standard? —me
Posted: 21 July 2014 11:08 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Old Kinderhooker
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Kori:
What is most shocking to me as a former missionary is the tactic now employed by missionaries, of denying their own "Word of God' they pretend like they know nothing about the BoA or D&C. They don't even reference them at all or even possess them. They just distance themselves from them as fast as they can.
I was a missionary once myself, and I can tell you I worked with some missionaries who really didn't know their scriptures. I'm not sure it was a tactical decision when they told you they didn't know about the BoA. They may just have been 18-year-old kids who didn't know shit about the organization they represent. Kids who are on a 2-year mission because they don't know how else to survive in their culture.
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I say unto you who are not yet free, Remember the power of “No”, for this word alone will keep you free from Morg mind control.
Posted: 21 July 2014 11:38 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Kori
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Quartersawn:
Ok, time for a lesson on placing graphics.
These pictures are way too big, I can't get around, and I've tried three different browsers (chrome (my default), Firefox (2nd choice), and Internet Exploder)
Unless I don't have something turned on, let me know.
In the INSERT/EDIT IMAGE icon above, after placing the link for the picture, select the APPEARANCE tab, and in the dimension boxes, change the right box (horizontal) to around 500. The left box (vertical) will adjust to keep the ratio correct.
This was a large image, over 1300 horizontal.
I set it at 500 (the second number in the dimension box).
Let me see if it works.
Sorry man.
I was in a hurry.
Just right clicking on images, copying image and pasting image into my posts.
I went back and did it the right way and sized them properly for you.
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“Not sure about a higher power but I definitely believe in re-sizing my images to not be so freaking wide.” Dark Chocolate
Posted: 21 July 2014 11:43 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Kori
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Old Kinderhooker:
I was a missionary once myself, and I can tell you I worked with some missionaries who really didn't know their scriptures. I'm not sure it was a tactical decision when they told you they didn't know about the BoA. They may just have been 18-year-old kids who didn't know shit about the organization they represent. Kids who are on a 2-year mission because they don't know how else to survive in their culture.
I was a missionary once too.
18 years old is not a kid, it's a legal adult.
They're adult representatives of a fraudulent CULT.
IF they were out selling houses, instead of Joseph's Myth, they'd be sued for failure to disclose fundamental, structural faults in the foundation of the crappy houses they were selling. It's really not their fault. They're completely oblivious to the faults in the foundation of the faulty product they're selling. So, having been victimized by this whole Pyramid Scheme having bought one of those crappy houses, without legally required disclosure, to disclose what is not disclosed to the salesmen out selling these crappy houses to unsuspecting and vulnerable people.
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“Not sure about a higher power but I definitely believe in re-sizing my images to not be so freaking wide.” Dark Chocolate
Posted: 21 July 2014 11:44 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Heretic
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Kori:
What is most shocking to me as a former missionary is the tactic now employed by missionaries, of denying their own "Word of God' they pretend like they know nothing about the BoA or D&C. They don't even reference them at all or even possess them. They just distance themselves from them as fast as they can.
This is true! I talked to some missionaries awhile back and asked them to look at something in the Pearl of Great Price, and neither one of them had a copy with them. Shameful! If you are a carpenter, do you ever go to work without your hammer? If you are a policeman, do you ever go to work without your badge?
Posted: 21 July 2014 12:08 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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Kori
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Heretic:
Kori:
What is most shocking to me as a former missionary is the tactic now employed by missionaries, of denying their own "Word of God' they pretend like they know nothing about the BoA or D&C. They don't even reference them at all or even possess them. They just distance themselves from them as fast as they can.
This is true! I talked to some missionaries awhile back and asked them to look at something in the Pearl of Great Price, and neither one of them had a copy with them. Shameful! If you are a carpenter, do you ever go to work without your hammer? If you are a policeman, do you ever go to work without your badge?
What really amazed me was when I asked a couple of Missionaries about the BoA and they actually laughed at me and said, Book of Abraham? Is that in the Bible?"
My response was, didn't you guys attend seminary? Didn't they teach you the basics about Mormonism before they sent you out to be missionaries? I was a missionary too, you can't fool me. Look, I got the LAW of the Priesthood memorized. I've got Fascimille 2, Fig 7 memorized, and I've got the 11th Article of Faith memorized.
I don't need scriptures, but these missionaries should have their own word of God and they should be capable of speaking intelligently about them.
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“Not sure about a higher power but I definitely believe in re-sizing my images to not be so freaking wide.” Dark Chocolate
Posted: 21 July 2014 12:17 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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Old Kinderhooker
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Kori:
Old Kinderhooker:
I was a missionary once myself, and I can tell you I worked with some missionaries who really didn't know their scriptures. I'm not sure it was a tactical decision when they told you they didn't know about the BoA. They may just have been 18-year-old kids who didn't know shit about the organization they represent. Kids who are on a 2-year mission because they don't know how else to survive in their culture.
I was a missionary once too.
18 years old is not a kid, it's a legal adult.
They're adult representatives of a fraudulent CULT.
IF they were out selling houses, instead of Joseph's Myth, they'd be sued for failure to disclose fundamental, structural faults in the foundation of the crappy houses they were selling. It's really not their fault. They're completely oblivious to the faults in the foundation of the faulty product they're selling. So, having been victimized by this whole Pyramid Scheme having bought one of those crappy houses, without legally required disclosure, to disclose what is not disclosed to the salesmen out selling these crappy houses to unsuspecting and vulnerable people.
My trainer never carried all four standard works. He carried the BoM tucked under his belt in the back, and that was all he carried. I lugged my quad around, but it was seldom used. Most of the other missionaries in my mission didn't carry anything but the BoM.
They're dupes on a mission to dupe others. Like you say, they're oblivious, and not only oblivious to the problems with their church's history but also oblivious to many of its current doctrines and practices.
All I was really saying is that they may genuinely not have known about the BoA, and may not know the difference between the PoGP and the Biblical OT. Those things would be easy to conflate if one weren't an attentive type person. Mormon youth (even if they are legal adults) are encouraged to only be attentive in specific contexts. Outside of these contexts, they can be as ignorant as they want.
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I say unto you who are not yet free, Remember the power of “No”, for this word alone will keep you free from Morg mind control.
Posted: 21 July 2014 12:50 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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Kori
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Old Kinderhooker:
Kori:
Old Kinderhooker:
I was a missionary once myself, and I can tell you I worked with some missionaries who really didn't know their scriptures. I'm not sure it was a tactical decision when they told you they didn't know about the BoA. They may just have been 18-year-old kids who didn't know shit about the organization they represent. Kids who are on a 2-year mission because they don't know how else to survive in their culture.
I was a missionary once too.
18 years old is not a kid, it's a legal adult.
They're adult representatives of a fraudulent CULT.
IF they were out selling houses, instead of Joseph's Myth, they'd be sued for failure to disclose fundamental, structural faults in the foundation of the crappy houses they were selling. It's really not their fault. They're completely oblivious to the faults in the foundation of the faulty product they're selling. So, having been victimized by this whole Pyramid Scheme having bought one of those crappy houses, without legally required disclosure, to disclose what is not disclosed to the salesmen out selling these crappy houses to unsuspecting and vulnerable people.
My trainer never carried all four standard works. He carried the BoM tucked under his belt in the back, and that was all he carried. I lugged my quad around, but it was seldom used. Most of the other missionaries i
n my mission didn't carry anything but the BoM.
They're dupes on a mission to dupe others. Like you say, they're oblivious, and not only oblivious to the problems with their church's history but also oblivious to many of its current doctrines and practices.
All I was really saying is that they may genuinely not have known about the BoA, and may not know the difference between the PoGP and the Biblical OT. Those things would be easy to conflate if one weren't an attentive type person. Mormon youth (even if they are legal adults) are encouraged to only be attentive in specific contexts. Outside of these contexts, they can be as ignorant as they want.
I get your point and agree. The difference between me and the missionaries I'm encountering these days, is the level of intellectual dishonesty they're willing to exhibit.
Right after promising to answer my questions honestly, they lied about the Book of Abraham, pretending they had never heard if it.
I wouldn't have run away from a debate with a critic, I would have debated them, not in a contentious way, but in order to establish the truth, not only in my mind, but in my companions mind, and in the minds of future generations. The truth has always been important to me.
Had anybody showed me that I worshipped a God named Min, with a 2' erection, I would have gotten to the bottom of it, not fled the scene.
Had anybody told me Joseph's Myth violated the LAW of the Priesthood when he "married" (screwed) other men's wives, I would have paid attention, researched it and upon finding they were right, I would have left the immoral, indefensible doomsday sex cult of Joseph's Myth., despite the social implications and personal costs of admitting Id been duped.
Problem is, nobody bothered telling me the truth about the deeply flawed product I was flogging, at least nobody who knew what the hell they were talking about. I had to figure it out on my own via the internet. Now that I know the truth, I'm obligated to not remain silent about it when this army of 80,000 brainwashes is out there brainwashing gullible sheep full time.
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“Not sure about a higher power but I definitely believe in re-sizing my images to not be so freaking wide.” Dark Chocolate
Posted: 21 July 2014 12:57 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Kori, thanks for resizing the images. Makes the thread much more readable.
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
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Posted: 21 July 2014 02:30 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
Celestial Wedgie
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Kori:
Sorry man.
I was in a hurry.
Just right clicking on images, copying image and pasting image into my posts.
I went back and did it the right way and sized them properly for you.
Thanks, Kori, for fixing this. It is easier to read this way.
You mentioned the value of debate for establishing truth. I personally don't see it as all that effective at establishing truth. Mostly it establishes who is best at debate.
When I was in college I had a professor who gave a lesson on not being too persuaded by argumentation. He presented us with this reasoning: "Nothing is better than God. Stale potato chips are better than nothing. Therefore stale potato chips are better than God." He assured us that there was a logical flaw in there, but it was sort of hard to spot and even harder to explain. Then the major lesson: just because you don't have a ready answer for a perplexing argument does not make you wrong. I held to that lesson pretty tightly because I sucked at debate.
If I were a young missionary again (! ) I wouldn't be persuaded with the information you gave. Instead I would think, "Wow, I wish I were that smart!" But then I'd go my way and keep teaching the same crap. On my mission I never bore testimony and I never said that I knew it was true. I couldn't push my moral elastics that far. But I did keep teaching and I invited lots of people to consider the Mormon church: maybe they'd be happier or live better lives. A few months into the mission I was certain that I couldn't believe in Mormonism, but even then I still kept teaching. Partly I was terrified of being branded a mission failure, which was social death for a kid coming from devoutly Mormon Utah suburbia. And I kept teaching. I don't think I ever once taught from the Pearl of Great Price or the Doctrine and Covenants.
Maybe I'm morally defective or intellectually lazy, but I bet there are lots of missionaries like I was, young guys who might bump into arguments like those you've presented and still keep on teaching.
Posted: 21 July 2014 08:02 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
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Heretic
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I think arguments can indeed be effective. If you present new information that the other person has never heard before, they might decide to believe you, investigate further, or think about the matter some. The sleeper effect can do wonders. If you tell a Mormon today that Joseph Smith had 34 wives, he might say, "You are a liar! An evil anti-Mormon! You need to repent!" But someday a couple years from now he might be depressed about the church, or looking at a genealogy website, or repeatedly hearing the same thing about Joseph Smith from multiple sources. He might actually investigate the matter and change his beliefs, and it all started with your argument which provided new information.
Posted: 21 July 2014 10:33 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
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Kori
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Heretic:
I think arguments can indeed be effective. If you present new information that the other person has never heard before, they might decide to believe you, investigate further, or think about the matter some. The sleeper effect can do wonders. If you tell a Mormon today that Joseph Smith had 34 wives, he might say, "You are a liar! An evil anti-Mormon! You need to repent!" But someday a couple years from now he might be depressed about the church, or looking at a genealogy website, or repeatedly hearing the same thing about Joseph Smith from multiple sources. He might actually investigate the matter and change his beliefs, and it all started with your argument which provided new information.
Aristotles rhetorical appeals still apply.
The Socratic method is still effective.
Those methods don't become ineffective just because people are uneducated, they work to educate people. Educating the youth is one of our highest callings. My goal is to educate people by exposing them to the truth.
I think there's a big difference between truth and bullshit.
We are under no obligation to remain silent as The enemy of truth sends out 80,000 missionaries/day to sell its lies about Joseph's Myth. The truth is simple and doesn't require an army to get established. It gets established as anachronistic myths are debunked and discarded where they belong, on the dustheap of anachronisms. The only thing keeping this particular bogus myth alive is the silent majority of Mormons who lend creedence to the bullshit by subscribing to it. Not in any kind if a well considered world view, but because the group think serves them well. They believe their numbers will deliver them to the promised land, never stopping to consider that they were all born onto the slave ship SS Joseph's Myth.
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“Not sure about a higher power but I definitely believe in re-sizing my images to not be so freaking wide.” Dark Chocolate
Posted: 22 July 2014 12:16 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 17 ]
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Heretic
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I sent a message to my TBM brother who lives out of town that I had learned many really amazing things about the LDS church and that I felt like I should stop being stingy and share them with him, but that I figured he probably did not want to know, because having the truth can change how you live your life.
My brother basically said, "I am really busy with my job and rather stressed out right now. Maybe I will talk to you someday after things settle down at work."
I take this to mean that he never ever wants to talk to me about this subject because of one of two reasons:
(1) I am full of evil anti-Mormon lies and it would be a waste of his time to talk to me.
(2) I might actually know something he does not, and learning the truth would change his life. That really terrifies him.
Posted: 22 July 2014 05:10 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 18 ]
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Bold Wish
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Don't date until you're sixteen?
JS married a 14 year old and two 16 year olds?
The level of hypocrisy and dishonesty exercised by the organization is truly mind boggling
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Lloyd Dobler:
There is almost no limit to how bad the church will make you their bitch.
Posted: 23 July 2014 05:22 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 19 ]
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Kori
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Heretic:
I sent a message to my TBM brother who lives out of town that I had learned many really amazing things about the LDS church and that I felt like I should stop being stingy and share them with him, but that I figured he probably did not want to know, because having the truth can change how you live your life.
My brother basically said, "I am really busy with my job and rather stressed out right now. Maybe I will talk to you someday after things settle down at work."
I take this to mean that he never ever wants to talk to me about this subject because of one of two reasons:
(1) I am full of evil anti-Mormon lies and it would be a waste of his time to talk to me.
(2) I might actually know something he does not, and learning the truth would change his life. That really terrifies him.
Mormons are kept too busy to think straight
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“Not sure about a higher power but I definitely believe in re-sizing my images to not be so freaking wide.” Dark Chocolate
Posted: 23 July 2014 06:08 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 20 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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Kori:
Heretic:
I sent a message to my TBM brother who lives out of town that I had learned many really amazing things about the LDS church and that I felt like I should stop being stingy and share them with him, but that I figured he probably did not want to know, because having the truth can change how you live your life.
My brother basically said, "I am really busy with my job and rather stressed out right now. Maybe I will talk to you someday after things settle down at work."
I take this to mean that he never ever wants to talk to me about this subject because of one of two reasons:
(1) I am full of evil anti-Mormon lies and it would be a waste of his time to talk to me.
(2) I might actually know something he does not, and learning the truth would change his life. That really terrifies him.
Mormons are kept too busy to think straight
Bullseye. When things settle down at work, he'll be too busy with his new calling as HP group leader or whatever, or he'll be home teaching, or he'll be preparing a lesson for Sunday, or he'll be watching kids/grandkids when wife/daughter/daughter-in-law is off to relief society... It never f##king ends. NEVER.
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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler
Posted: 23 July 2014 07:03 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 21 ]
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Jeff Ricks
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Heretic:
I sent a message to my TBM brother who lives out of town that I had learned many really amazing things about the LDS church and that I felt like I should stop being stingy and share them with him, but that I figured he probably did not want to know, because having the truth can change how you live your life.
My brother basically said, "I am really busy with my job and rather stressed out right now. Maybe I will talk to you someday after things settle down at work."
I take this to mean that he never ever wants to talk to me about this subject because of one of two reasons:
(1) I am full of evil anti-Mormon lies and it would be a waste of his time to talk to me.
(2) I might actually know something he does not, and learning the truth would change his life. That really terrifies him.
Now that the Brethren are admitting to some of the facts its denied for decades, and have therfore exposed their fallibility, maybe it's time we assume the high road with our TBM family and friends when Mormonism comes up in a conversation and there's an opportunity to share with them some uncomfortable facts. Maybe next time share those facts and then say: This is the point in your life where you get to find out whether you have the courage to stand for truth, or whether you will instead make excuses for beliving in lies. Choose wisely. Then say no more and let them chew on that for a few weeks, and see what happens.
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Life has no meaning. Each of us has meaning and we bring it to life. It is a waste to be asking the question when you are the answer.
- Joseph Campbell
Posted: 23 July 2014 01:55 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 22 ]
Flora4
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Ninon de Lenclos:
There is phallic worship in Hinduism too...
...Shiva's phallus (the Shiva lingam), to be precise.
I love Aphrodite. No bigger phallus worship than her. Being literally born from a severed penis of a god thrown into the sea.
Posted: 23 July 2014 04:39 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 23 ]
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Kori
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Flora:
Ninon de Lenclos:
There is phallic worship in Hinduism too...
...Shiva's phallus (the Shiva lingam), to be precise
I love Aphrodite. No bigger phallus worship than her. Being literally born from a severed penis of a god thrown into the sea.
It's not the phalic worship that bugs me, it's the lying about what is clearly evident and really embarrassing to the cult that spends untold billions every year trying to convince the world the Gid of Joseph's Myth is the one and only TRUE God on the face of the planet. Come to find out he's one of many Egyptian Gods, the one with a full time raging hard on. Why pick that God out of all the possible choices of millions if gods? Because it reinforced the patriarchal, white, straight male hierarchy, which is what Mormons are all about, conserving traditional family values, like racism, sexism, homophobia and demo nixing apostates. Typical CULT behavior. Pitting us against them.
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“Not sure about a higher power but I definitely believe in re-sizing my images to not be so freaking wide.” Dark Chocolate
Posted: 24 July 2014 05:17 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 24 ]
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Kori
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“Not sure about a higher power but I definitely believe in re-sizing my images to not be so freaking wide.” Dark Chocolate
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Posted: 07-27-2014 03:09 PM
Author: dave (e_nomo)
A Rare and Beautiful Thing
Author: Brad (ZeeZrom) 6 380
Posted: 07-26-2014 06:56 AM
Author: Matter Unorganized
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Mothers and SEX!!?
by thalmar
Questions for missionaries (or any other Mormons)
by Kori
please help
by Celestial Wedgie
Caffeine reduces Tinnitus, another WOW bust....
by Celestial Wedgie
St. Joe Company?
by Heretic
Still changing....
by Inexile
Resignation and Family Records
by Inexile
who the Gentiles really were...
by claire2
CES Letter rebuttal updated
by fauxmon
PoMo dating preferences
by Jennilee
Un-ringing the bell
by Elder OldDog
Book Release on Mormon Mind Control At Last!
by Free2Live
Finances/Monson
by Free2Live
Kate Kelly's appeal
by Free2Live
Mormons worship Min, the phallic God of Egypt - Video of Mormon Missionary confrontation
by Tessa
BYU-I Prof of Religion resigns
by WinstonSmith
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by Curious NeverMo
Watched Dateline's Warren Jeff's episode with a Mormon, who told me she didn't want to ID herself as Mormon anymore after that. lol
by Strong Free & Thankful
The Misattributed Cycle of Victory over Self-Abuse! - What is your Gap of Onan?
by Ex_aedibus
Mormon Infographics strikes again
by Old Kinderhooker
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewforum/5/P105/
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Forum Home > Member Forums > The Community Forum
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Mothers and SEX!!?
by thalmar
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by Kori
please help
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St. Joe Company?
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Still changing....
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Resignation and Family Records
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who the Gentiles really were...
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Watched Dateline's Warren Jeff's episode with a Mormon, who told me she didn't want to ID herself as Mormon anymore after that. lol
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The Misattributed Cycle of Victory over Self-Abuse! - What is your Gap of Onan?
by Ex_aedibus
Mormon Infographics strikes again
by Old Kinderhooker
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewforum/5/P35/
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