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Mormon Humanist ???  
Posted: 25 April 2008 05:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Rich McCue
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In the MormonStories.org thread Carter said:
 
All I know is that he [John Dehlin] started becoming overwhelmed with work, school and his mormonstories podcast. It has moved his energy over to a blog called mormon matters. And, he seems to always be willing to accept friends on facebook. Recently his religion said mormon universalist; now it says mormon humanist.
 
Any ideas what a "Mormon Humanist" is?  Wikipedia says that Humanism is: "a comprehensive life stance that upholds human reason, ethics, and justice, and rejects supernaturalism, pseudoscience and superstition."
 
Seems like the reason, supernaturalism, and supersititon don't mesh well with mormonism. "Mormon Humanist" sounds like an oxymoron to me.  Any other ideas that can make "Mormon Humanist" makes sense?
 
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Posted: 25 April 2008 05:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Kristi
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I think you are exactly right! Those two words don't make any sense when you put them together! 

   


Posted: 25 April 2008 05:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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More from Wikipedia:
 
"According to Humanism, it is up to humans to find the truth, as opposed to seeking it through revelation, mysticism, tradition, or anything else that is incompatible with the application of logic to the observable evidence. In demanding that humans avoid blindly accepting unsupported beliefs, it supports scientific skepticism and the scientific method, rejecting authoritarianism and extreme skepticism, and rendering faith an unacceptable basis for action. Likewise, Humanism asserts that knowledge of right and wrong is based on the best understanding of one's individual and joint interests, rather than stemming from a transcendental truth or an arbitrarily local source."
 
That doesn't seem to fit with Mormonism at all.
 
 
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Posted: 25 April 2008 05:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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helemon
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Rich McCue:
In the MormonStories.org thread Carter said:
 
All I know is that he [John Dehlin] started becoming overwhelmed with work, school and his mormonstories podcast. It has moved his energy over to a blog called mormon matters. And, he seems to always be willing to accept friends on facebook. Recently his religion said mormon universalist; now it says mormon humanist.
 
Any ideas what a "Mormon Humanist" is?  Wikipedia says that Humanism is: "a comprehensive life stance that upholds human reason, ethics, and justice, and rejects supernaturalism, pseudoscience and superstition."
 
Seems like the reason, supernaturalism, and supersititon don't mesh well with mormonism. "Mormon Humanist" sounds like an oxymoron to me.  Any other ideas that can make "Mormon Humanist" makes sense?
 
 
 Mormon is his culture and heritage, Humanist is how he views the world.
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Posted: 25 April 2008 02:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Rich McCue:
 
  
Seems like the reason, supernaturalism, and supersititon don't mesh well with mormonism. "Mormon Humanist" sounds like an oxymoron to me.  Any other ideas that can make "Mormon Humanist" makes sense?
 

 Not only is Mormon Humanist an oxymoron.  The word Mormon itself is one.  Joseph Smith said that it's direct interpretation is "more good".  I don't see the mormon church as being more good.


   


Posted: 25 April 2008 02:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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WestBerkeleyFlats
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helemon:
Rich McCue:
In the MormonStories.org thread Carter said:
 
All I know is that he [John Dehlin] started becoming overwhelmed with work, school and his mormonstories podcast. It has moved his energy over to a blog called mormon matters. And, he seems to always be willing to accept friends on facebook. Recently his religion said mormon universalist; now it says mormon humanist.
 
Any ideas what a "Mormon Humanist" is?  Wikipedia says that Humanism is: "a comprehensive life stance that upholds human reason, ethics, and justice, and rejects supernaturalism, pseudoscience and superstition."
 
Seems like the reason, supernaturalism, and supersititon don't mesh well with mormonism. "Mormon Humanist" sounds like an oxymoron to me.  Any other ideas that can make "Mormon Humanist" makes sense?
 
 
 Mormon is his culture and heritage, Humanist is how he views the world.
 
I can understood if "Mormon" is his ethnicity, as it were, but if he is truly a humanist then why does he bother to tell people that information about the church is reconciliable with belief in the church, which involves a good deal of supernaturalism, pseudoscience, superstition, and acceptance of dogma and authority?
 
I've always felt that Dehlin wants to have it both ways. 


   


Posted: 25 April 2008 02:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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I'm with WBF.
 
Dehlin's not the only one. I've mentioned this before but Nate Oman is somebody who gets in my craw, likewise for trying to have it both ways - supporting and feeding on a religion that is unvarnished balderdash and trying to somehow squirm out of declaring outright that they completely believe the balderdash, so as not to compromise their rationalist credentials.
 
They can't have it both ways and the sophistry that goes into maintaining the position of being a 'Mormon Humanist' - an utter oxymoron - is nothing short of nauseating.
 
This interview on Mormonstories.org with Nate Oman is a perfect example of the supercilious squirming I'm talking about. Nate Oman is of course the 'father of the bloggernacle' and one of the founders of Times and Seasons.
 
In the interview he gives some interesting facts about the early days of Mormon blogging, but more than that, he seems to be completely guilty of believing in Mormonism in a postmodern way, which is of course to not actually believe in Mormonism at all the way it advertises itself, and the way in which the LDS 'peasantry' believe in it.
 
I just wish they'd have the guts to come and say so frankly.
 
 
 
 
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Posted: 25 April 2008 03:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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WestBerkeleyFlats:
helemon:

Mormon is his culture and heritage, Humanist is how he views the world.
 
I can understood if "Mormon" is his ethnicity, as it were, but if he is truly a humanist then why does he bother to tell people that information about the church is reconciliable with belief in the church, which involves a good deal of supernaturalism, pseudoscience, superstition, and acceptance of dogma and authority?
 
I've always felt that Dehlin wants to have it both ways. 
 
I guess that makes sense.  When I initially left the church I was telling people that I was a non-practicing mormon (sort of like how I'd heard some jewish friends refer to themselves non-practicing jews).  Now if it comes up I tell people I used to be a member of the church but am not now... which I think is a better way to let people know where I'm coming from, but at the same time distance myself from the church's magical beliefs.
 
I can see now how "Mormon Humanist" could be descriptive of where John's at.  Mormon culture and back ground, but humanist in belief and outlook.  That perspective just wasn't obvious to me at first.
 
Right now I'm listening to the Mormonmatters.org podcasts on "Inoculation".  From my perspective now, their arguments just seem ridiculous:  Give faithful members a little bit of the bad news about church history in a controlled setting, so that hopefully that their negative reaction can be managed and overcome.  As opposed to letting people find out about the seeder aspects of church history on their own, and do the natural thing and head for the nearest exit door.  I know a few people who keep up the facade of faithfulness at least in part to keep the peace on the family front.    
 
Just my 2 cents worth. 
 
 
 
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Posted: 25 April 2008 03:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Rich McCue:
WestBerkeleyFlats:
helemon:

Mormon is his culture and heritage, Humanist is how he views the world.
 
I can understood if "Mormon" is his ethnicity, as it were, but if he is truly a humanist then why does he bother to tell people that information about the church is reconciliable with belief in the church, which involves a good deal of supernaturalism, pseudoscience, superstition, and acceptance of dogma and authority?
 
I've always felt that Dehlin wants to have it both ways. 
 
I guess that makes sense.  When I initially left the church I was telling people that I was a non-practicing mormon (sort of like how I'd heard some jewish friends refer to themselves non-practicing jews).  Now if it comes up I tell people I used to be a member of the church but am not now... which I think is a better way to let people know where I'm coming from, but at the same time distance myself from the church's magical beliefs.
 
I can see now how "Mormon Humanist" could be descriptive of where John's at.  Mormon culture and back ground, but humanist in belief and outlook.  That perspective just wasn't obvious to me at first.
 
Right now I'm listening to the Mormonmatters.org podcasts on "Inoculation".  From my perspective now, their arguments just seem ridiculous:  Give faithful members a little bit of the bad news about church history in a controlled setting, so that hopefully that their negative reaction can be managed and overcome.  As opposed to letting people find out about the seeder aspects of church history on their own, and do the natural thing and head for the nearest exit door.  I know a few people who keep up the facade of faithfulness at least in part to keep the peace on the family front.    
 
Just my 2 cents worth. 
 
 
 
Perhaps my point is that one can be a "Mormon humanist," and there have always been those types who have some affiliation with the church or culture for a variety of reasons, but it makes more sense to me to be one and be in essence a New Order Mormon, which traditionally most of these types have been.  Such people are much more likely to say something along the lines of "The church's history is messed up and the church institutionally is still somewhat messed up, but there are some goods things about the community and what members have done with the tradition."  It's the people who want to present themselves as rationalists but then engage in apologetics or "inoculation" that strike me as annoying, given that I think that they do these things primarily to rationalize their own personal position.   
 


   


Posted: 25 April 2008 03:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Rich McCue:
WestBerkeleyFlats:
helemon:

Mormon is his culture and heritage, Humanist is how he views the world.
 
I can understood if "Mormon" is his ethnicity, as it were, but if he is truly a humanist then why does he bother to tell people that information about the church is reconciliable with belief in the church, which involves a good deal of supernaturalism, pseudoscience, superstition, and acceptance of dogma and authority?
 
I've always felt that Dehlin wants to have it both ways. 
 
I guess that makes sense.  When I initially left the church I was telling people that I was a non-practicing mormon (sort of like how I'd heard some jewish friends refer to themselves non-practicing jews).  Now if it comes up I tell people I used to be a member of the church but am not now... which I think is a better way to let people know where I'm coming from, but at the same time distance myself from the church's magical beliefs.
 
I can see now how "Mormon Humanist" could be descriptive of where John's at.  Mormon culture and back ground, but humanist in belief and outlook.  That perspective just wasn't obvious to me at first.
 
Right now I'm listening to the Mormonmatters.org podcasts on "Inoculation".  From my perspective now, their arguments just seem ridiculous:  Give faithful members a little bit of the bad news about church history in a controlled setting, so that hopefully that their negative reaction can be managed and overcome.  As opposed to letting people find out about the seeder aspects of church history on their own, and do the natural thing and head for the nearest exit door.
 
Just my 2 cents worth. 
 
 
 
I don't think inoculation will work given the belief structure of Mormonism.  Knowledge is paramount in Mormon belief.  No one in testimony meetings say "I believe" or even worse "I hope" - you can't be saved in ignorance - you have to know.  If you know the prophet speaks for God, that is a lot different than hoping and believing.  The belief structure of the church lacks faith - it actually says faith itself is bad - you're not worthy if you can't say "I know" (of course some will argue with me on this).  Faith allows for errors whereas knowledge does not.  I think the church will change into a faith based belief system so that it can survive, but this will in no way reflect the foundation upon which it was built!
 


   


Posted: 25 April 2008 04:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Is "Mormon Humanist" a step further down the path away from mormon spiritual tradition than "Mormon Universalist," the tag that Dehlin used to use?
 
Dehlin is a fan of the Fowler model. Seems like, using Fowler's model, that the natural course for somebody who continues on in spiritual growth is to be humanist first (stage 4) and then to grow into a more universalist view of the world (stage 5).
 
At times Dehlin himself would comment to contributors of his blog who were quibbling over historical interpretations and what they mean to mormon practitioners today to, instead of engaging in heated volleys, reach for Stage 5 of Fowlers model. In other words, I got the sense that his hope was to encourage a constructive dialog that surpasses the fundamental disagreements over history and that transcends the boundaries that mormons themselves erect.
 
So, does "Mormon Humanist" mean he has retreated?
 
This whole movement is very interesting. According to Fowler's observations, it's not possible for a person to skip a developmental phase, for example, go from stage 3 (clearly where the mormon religion stands today) to stage 5, thus skipping the pain of stage 4 in which a belief system and corresponding world view is demythologized.
 
Perhaps this is true for whole communities as well. Perhaps Mormonism in general will have to go through the reality and existential pain of stage 4 if it is to survive and retain some meaningful presence in the future world.
 
Interestingly, I think the Catholic church has spent the past several decades enduring the pain of stage 4. The recent visit by the Pope sheds light on a new approach that could be the beginning of leading the membership into stage 5. The Pope apologized over and over for the priest sex abuse and even met with victims, allowing them to express their uncensored grief. He spoke about combining forces with leaders of other religions to make positive contributions to the world. He continues to make a point to visit with other leaders in their environments: a Jewish synagogue and a Muslim mosque. It appears that he is attempting to lead the church out of past ideologies and dogmas into a more universalist vision and approach.
 
What do you think? Am I reading too much into Dehlin's new tag and the movement in general?


   


Posted: 25 April 2008 04:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Interesting thread. I dont care much for Mormon Culture so adhereing to it once beyond one's Mormon Faith seems useless to me. I was so glad to chuck the whole thing. It felt, and continues to feel so good. 
 
 
Dehlin seems like a decent man. I see him as an enabler though. Again. Unhealthy.
 
 
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Posted: 25 April 2008 04:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Timber,
 
Interesting perspective. I'm not familiar with Fowler's model but I think the comparision of RC and the Morg is apt in some ways, at least because both - unlike general protestantism - claim direct authority from God.
 
In fact, you've made me wonder about the difference between the claim to authority between the Catholic Church and the LDS church. As far as I can tell, the difference is that the Pope claims authority by lineage and god-ordained interpretation - which is perhaps why an academic theologian now heads the RC Church, whereas the LDS church claims continuing direct revelation, although in practice it is also clearly an interpretive exercise. Weirdly, from the view of rank and file members of either church, it seems to boil down to inspired leadership however you cut it.
 
 
But back on the topic of the thread, I don't see how Mormonism can slide up any scale between literalist and metaphorical belief without immediately compromising all its restoration claims, BoM claims and authority claims.
 
Yet in practice, Mormons such as Dehlin do, when you listen to them, seem to be somewhere on precisely such a scale. And some GAs also, GBH not least among them, reading between the lines, seem to be clinging to this absolute authority while shying away from literalist statements.
 
For me it's one of the most surreal things about Mormonism that it makes such a song and dance about literalist claims that are patent nonsense, and wants to base its authority on them, while employing evasive language that tries to suggest a more metaphorical, humanist or universalist stance, so as to avoid being tarred with the brush of superstitious ignorance.
 
 
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Posted: 25 April 2008 07:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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I would tell you what I think of this, but I am late for the "Mormon atheists for Allah" meeting.


   


Posted: 25 April 2008 09:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Rich McCue:

Right now I'm listening to the Mormonmatters.org podcasts on "Inoculation".  From my perspective now, their arguments just seem ridiculous:  Give faithful members a little bit of the bad news about church history in a controlled setting, so that hopefully that their negative reaction can be managed and overcome.  As opposed to letting people find out about the seeder aspects of church history on their own, and do the natural thing and head for the nearest exit door.  I know a few people who keep up the facade of faithfulness at least in part to keep the peace on the family front.    
 
 
 
 It sounds like just more brainwashing to me. A way to de-sensitize them to the truth so they still keep believing and paying that 10%.
 
 
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Posted: 25 April 2008 10:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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Winyan:
Rich McCue:

Right now I'm listening to the Mormonmatters.org podcasts on "Inoculation".  From my perspective now, their arguments just seem ridiculous:  Give faithful members a little bit of the bad news about church history in a controlled setting, so that hopefully that their negative reaction can be managed and overcome.  As opposed to letting people find out about the seeder aspects of church history on their own, and do the natural thing and head for the nearest exit door.  I know a few people who keep up the facade of faithfulness at least in part to keep the peace on the family front.    
 
 
 
 It sounds like just more brainwashing to me. A way to de-sensitize them to the truth so they still keep believing and paying that 10%.
 
 
 This made me lol--both posts did.  I love how you both boil this down to it's basic elements: mind control and damage control.  Lovely.
 

 


   


Posted: 25 April 2008 10:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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bamboom:

For me it's one of the most surreal things about Mormonism that it makes such a song and dance about literalist claims that are patent nonsense, and wants to base its authority on them, while employing evasive language that tries to suggest a more metaphorical, humanist or universalist stance, so as to avoid being tarred with the brush of superstitious ignorance.
 
 
 
I had an interesting conversation with a close relative a couple of months ago.  He was excitedly telling me about an Ensign article, or something he read on the lds.org website, that said that most of the time when the prophet (or GA's) speak, they are just speaking as men, and not as Prophets.   Only when they preface their statments with "Thus sayth the Lord..." would we need to take what they say as revelation from God. 
 
I responed by saying that it was great that they were telling the members this, but if most of what the General Authorities say is not revelation from God, then why can't we have a reasoned discussion with them about the decisions they make and the advice they give?  That was the end of the conversation... he paused, and then moved on to another topic with out looking back.
 
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Posted: 25 April 2008 10:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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Rich McCue:
I had an interesting conversation with a close relative a couple of months ago.  He was excitedly telling me about an Ensign article, or something he read on the lds.org website, that said that most of the time when the prophet (or GA's) speak, they are just speaking as men, and not as Prophets.   Only when they preface their statments with "Thus sayth the Lord..." would we need to take what they say as revelation from God. 
 
I responed by saying that it was great that they were telling the members this, but if most of what the General Authorities say is not revelation from God, then why can't we have a reasoned discussion with them about the decisions they make and the advice they give?  That was the end of the conversation... he paused, and then moved on to another topic with out looking back.
 
 
What was he thinking?  Were you supposed to say, "Oh!  Okay then.  I guess I'll go back to church."  It's so frustrating when family members bring up religion but then don't care to hear your side of it.


   


Posted: 25 April 2008 10:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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Mormon Humanist? Why not... There are lots of categories out there like this that make equally good sense, Mormon Pagans, Mormon Satanists, Mormon White Supremacists, Mormon fundamentalists, Mormon UFO abuductees, Mormon Anonymous, The list goes on and on... 
 
Ultimately what it means in general is: mormon on the outside, humanist on the inside.
 
Come on out dehlin... There is a sunny happy world outside of the closet!


   


Posted: 27 April 2008 11:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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bamboom
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Rich McCue:
bamboom:

For me it's one of the most surreal things about Mormonism that it makes such a song and dance about literalist claims that are patent nonsense, and wants to base its authority on them, while employing evasive language that tries to suggest a more metaphorical, humanist or universalist stance, so as to avoid being tarred with the brush of superstitious ignorance.
 
 
 
I had an interesting conversation with a close relative a couple of months ago.  He was excitedly telling me about an Ensign article, or something he read on the lds.org website, that said that most of the time when the prophet (or GA's) speak, they are just speaking as men, and not as Prophets.   Only when they preface their statments with "Thus sayth the Lord..." would we need to take what they say as revelation from God. 
 
I responed by saying that it was great that they were telling the members this, but if most of what the General Authorities say is not revelation from God, then why can't we have a reasoned discussion with them about the decisions they make and the advice they give?  That was the end of the conversation... he paused, and then moved on to another topic with out looking back.
 
 
When was the last time any GA said, "Thus sayeth the Lord...."?
 
I have a pet theory that 'continuing revelation' is no longer possible in the overt sense, because the church membership more and more subconsciously relegate all the dramatic stuff to the past, especially as they become mainstream and are eager to show they're 'reasonable' people. Can you imagine what the actual response would be if Monson stood up at conference and said he'd had a direct revelation from God and/or Jesus? I wager there would be discomfort. The Church has become so banal and its leaders have become such banal management types - that many members in the tabernacle would have an awareness of not believing that Monson had really had any such thing.
 
Apart from that -  what exactly are the dividing lines between 'eternal verities' and 'continuing revelation' (adaptation in the face of circumstances), between GA's speaking on behalf of god and speaking merely as men, between any church leader or member being guided by the 'promptings of the spirit' and the promptings merely of common sense, their own egos or expediency?
 
It's impossible to ever nail down. The goal posts are always being moved and when it comes to the crunch, you get the response you mention, where the subject is just avoided. And even when there is a willingness to discuss the issues, the Church and its membership have become suffused with 'doublespeak', where an escape route is always provided in the evasive language used about everything. In fact, much like the 'doublespeak' that evolved in the Soviet Union amongst Russians who were confronted by a clearly flawed ideology and tortuously contrived mythology on the one hand, and the conflicting facts of reality on the other.
 
 
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Posted: 30 April 2008 03:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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Nice thread Rich.  Thanks for starting it.
 
I have not corresponded with Dehlin, but have with Oman and have thought a lot about the position they and others like them occupy.  From my point of view, they do much more good than ill.  People like them are intellectual leaders within the Mormon community.  The example they set is highly influential in many ways.  The more tolerant the Mormon community becomes of people like them, the less dogmatic it will be. 

Mormonism is probably headed toward a bifurcation between behavior (often referred to as "praxis" in this context) and belief.  Large parts of the Jewish community went down this road a long time ago.  The authoritarian grip of Mormonism's leaders on the average community member will probably loosen as this process continues.  The other route, which has been shown to lead to much higher average growth rates, is to assiduously remove all dissidents from the group and to raise the required behavioral standard.  The Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, have gone this route and have significantly higher growth rates than the Mormons.
 
I think we need to be pragmatic with regard to what is doable in terms of changing a large community.  Dehlin and his type offer a stepping stone within the Mormon community for many people who are struggling with its basic beliefs.  However, many of those who step to that stone will keep on stepping, instead of remaining where Dehlin is.  This is what happened in my case, in your case, and in many other cases with which we are familiar.
 
The discipline of semiotics (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiotics) is one of the most useful when it comes to understanding how and why people use words like "humanist".  This is where I finally get back to your point. 

I don't know enough about Dehlin’s views to comment with regard to his use of the term "Mormon humanist".  However, I am intimately familiar with another similar term - "religious naturalist".  I played a significant role in drafting the wikipedia entry for that term (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_naturalism).  I abandoned that process part way through when it became clear that the people with whom I was working had, for the most part, a radically different definition in mind than I had.  We had been dealing with each other extensively for a couple of years at that point, and I thought that I understood their beliefs and they thought that they understood mine.  That was not the case.  What I and some others in the group had in mind when we used the term "religious naturalism" was a completely naturalized or humanistic view of religious phenomena.  I prefer, by the way, to use the term "naturalist" with regard to myself instead of "humanist", because the naturalist term is broader.  Some people use them as synonyms.
 
Some of my friends, on the other hand, were using the term "religious naturalism" in the oxymoronic sense that some posters on the thread above think Dehlin is using the term "Mormon humanist".  That is, they were consciously or unconsciously attempting to borrow the prestige of the term "naturalism" with regard to religious views that were definitely not naturalistic.  It was only the disciplined process of drafting and attempting to agree upon definitional language that brought our basic disagreement into view.  Our desire to get along had subconsciously truncated our ability to accurately perceive each other's beliefs.  Our historic need to remain connected to important social groups likely explains this purposeful, if unconscious, inattentive tendency.
 
The study of semiotics gets into how the way in which we signify things changes, and the games we play, for the most part subconsciously, with each other in that regard. 
 
As it turns out, the ability to "noun" something is an incredible power.  Without a noun, we must use adjectives to describe what it is we are trying to communicate.  Once we develop a noun, the adjectives are buried and so in many cases become less likely to be challenged and therefore more likely to become part of our basic assumptions with regard to reality -- our epistemic wallpaper.  The same thing can happen with verbs and adjectives, but when you noun something you usually cover much more territory than is the case with other word types.

The use of nouns in this sense has another important function.  It anesthetizes some of the pain that occurs during social evolution.  It allows, for example, people to talk endlessly about "god” without effectively communicating what is in each other's heads and therefore avoiding argument in that regard.  This happens because the adjectival description of what each person has in mind when she says "god" are not stated, and tend to be assumed by the person hearing the term to be the same as the hearer has in his head.  This is precisely what happened re. the term "religious naturalism" above.   We were part of the same group.  We were friends.  We respected each other.  How could we not hold more or less the same beliefs with regard to something we all regarded as of foundational importance?

One of the easiest ways to get feathers flying is to press people for a precise description of what they have in mind when they use certain important nouns.
 
Another example.  At the liberal fringe of the Christian theological arena a number of leading theologians now use the term "god" to signify the so far inscrutable, immense creative force within nature.  They are, in some cases, religious naturalists in the sense that I use that term.  Whatever the basic creative force is, they say, that is god.  It is probably impersonal.  It probably has no awareness of us and may be incapable of being aware of us.  Reality was probably not created with us in mind, or for any purpose having to do with us.  We probably just "happened".  These people go back for support in this regard to the “negative theology” that has existed in most of the major religious traditions.  That is, for example, it is blasphemy to attempt to describe god in positive terms because he/she/it is so immense and we are so puny that we have no chance of getting the description right.  Therefore the only legitimate description of God is with regard to what God is not.  By very circuitous route, this arrives at something that resembles a naturalistic conception of God.
 
Of course, when conservative members of the same religious groups that have given rise to these theologians find out what their theologians actually have in mind when they say "god", all hell breaks loose.  However, over the course of a generation or two, the consistent use of a single word to mean different things is a tremendous facilitator for social change.  The young people can worship God along with the older people, each having completely different entities in mind in that regard, while continuing to enjoy important family and social relationships.
 
So, I don't really know what John Dehlin means when he says that he is a Mormon humanist, but the misuse of terms like that has a long, honorable history when it comes to facilitating painful social change. 

Think of the use of terms within the Mormon community like "testimony", "I know the Church is true", etc.  Think of the key words used in the temple recommend interview, and the power it confers on individuals when they start to use their own definitions of those words when answering the recommend questions, without explaining what they have in mind.  Note that the structure of the recommend interview itself encourages this kind of behavior. 

As people like Dehlin and Oman demonstrate a post-modernish tendency to give words (nouns like "prophet", verbs like "know" and "obey" and adjectives like "authorized" or "eternal") meanings with which they are comfortable and that differ from the meaning Mormon leaders surely have in mind, this constitutes a radical transfer of power from the leaders to the people.  This is good. 

It also creates an awkward halfway house that had no attraction for me.  It tends to corrupt those who learn to communicate in this at best dodgy and at worst deceptive manner.  It represents a double mindedness that I think is profoundly unprodutive.  I could not imagine inflicting this worldview and its behavioral foibles on my children.

In the end, however, I think this approach offers more upside than down within the Mormon community.  It is the "lesser evil" when all the altertives are considered.  And, more to the point, it is one of the bridges that will be built from the current much worse mainstream Mormon paradigm toward something that has a better change of becoming functional.  
 
best,
bob
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Posted: 30 April 2008 04:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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Rich McCue:

Right now I'm listening to the Mormonmatters.org podcasts on "Inoculation".  From my perspective now, their arguments just seem ridiculous:  Give faithful members a little bit of the bad news about church history in a controlled setting, so that hopefully that their negative reaction can be managed and overcome.  As opposed to letting people find out about the seeder aspects of church history on their own, and do the natural thing and head for the nearest exit door.  I know a few people who keep up the facade of faithfulness at least in part to keep the peace on the family front.    
 
Just my 2 cents worth. 
 
 
 
 I'm in total agreement  with you on this.  It wasn't very long ago that GBH stood up in church and said "Either all of it is true or none of it is true."  Put that in conjuction with a few issues like the Book of Abraham and you would have a mass exodus.  
 
Basically, I moved through a few stages before I left and I would have to say "Mormon Humanist" came about as close as anything else in describing my philosophy.  That is; I am a Mormon by birth, Humanist by choice. 
 
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“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”
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Posted: 30 April 2008 04:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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My brother knows Dehlin and seems to have a similar feeling that there may be hope to change the church from within and that members can go through a slow warming up to the reality of things (aka all the bs).  I watch as my brother tries to tempt family members to think outside the Happy Valley box with emails that are provocative, but not overly so.  I don't see it working.  It is almost as if he is hoping to have someone come along with him (he hasn't resigned) to validate his feelings and newly acquired knowledge.  My support doesn't count because TBM family and friends already know where I stand and don't want my responses.  Anyway, I feel I understand the hopes of those like Dehlin and my brother.  I think the greater personal happiness is to just call BS when you see it and start your new life based on facts and reality.  Then words like "Mormon Humanist" will remain as absurd as they sound.
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Posted: 30 April 2008 04:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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The PRofit
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Rich McCue:
In the MormonStories.org thread Carter said:
 
All I know is that he [John Dehlin] started becoming overwhelmed with work, school and his mormonstories podcast. It has moved his energy over to a blog called mormon matters. And, he seems to always be willing to accept friends on facebook. Recently his religion said mormon universalist; now it says mormon humanist.
 
Any ideas what a "Mormon Humanist" is?  Wikipedia says that Humanism is: "a comprehensive life stance that upholds human reason, ethics, and justice, and rejects supernaturalism, pseudoscience and superstition."
 
Seems like the reason, supernaturalism, and supersititon don't mesh well with mormonism. "Mormon Humanist" sounds like an oxymoron to me.  Any other ideas that can make "Mormon Humanist" makes sense?
 
 
As others have pointed out, the "Mormon" part of "Mormon Humanist" refers to his religious tradition of his inheritance. Sort of like Einstein was a Jew, even though he rejected the Judaism and any kind of traditional religious dogma. There are a whole lot of Jews in that category. I don't have any problem with somebody identifying themselves in "humanist" terms. I've known other Mormons I'd consider "Sunstone Mormon" (those who openly question their faith, lovingly) who call themselves "Mormon Deists". Which seems like another OxyMoron, but for them, it works.
 
These sorts of labels are ways for individuals to stay off Cognitive Dissonance by partitioning off the conflicting ideas. I did it for many years, first as a well educated Mormon who completely accepted the theory of evolution as a scientific fact, even on my mission as I taught the plan of Salvation, complete with the Garden of Eden fairy tale, as if it were fact.
 
It is a form of self delusion.
 
We are indoctrinated on how to brainwash ourselves into believing things that are absurd, by ignoring the evidence to the contrary, at least temprorarily, by teaching absurd things, testifying of absurd things we don't really believe, which worked for me up until I had my own children who asked me sincere questions I could not honestly answer. I couldn't lie to my kids. It's one thing to lie to yourself or others, it's an entirely different thing to lie to your own children. When I attempted to resolve my serious doubts through the proper channels, over many years, asking a whole series of bishops serious questions about my faith, not only did none of them have any real answers to my questions, I was threatened with punishment if I shared my doubts with other Mormons. When I asked if that meant my wife and children I was told, "Yes".
 
That is the point at which Mormonism became completely untennable to me, when it infringed on my constitutionally guaranteed freedom of speech, at which point it became abundantly clear to me that the primary concern of the Mormon church was not establishing truth, but in maintaining it's false superficial image as the ultimate authority of an imaginary God, which it uses to exploit its followers, and deny them their freedom, as it always has and always will, as long as people choose to identify themselves as Mormon.
 
My experience has been that it is an extreamly oppressive religion. The fact that John Dalin is not disciplined for pointing out the critical structural failures of Mormonism is beyond me. How is it that I was threatened with discipline for speaking honestly with my wife and children while this guy gets away with publicly broadcasting the major problems with Mormonism with zero discipline?
 
Maybe I misinterpretted my Bishop and he was just trying to buffalo me into feigned belief and it was a hallow threat, who knows? But it really doesn't matter. It is what it is, an exploitative, extreamly oppressive belief system and I'm just glad I can be honest with my children and not have to fear being disciplined for excercising my constitutionally guaranteed freedoms and more importantly, niether do my children or future generations of my family.
 
Where Judaism and Mormonism differ is that Judaism is an actual ethnicity, whereas Mormonism is not, although they pretend to be adopted into certain Semetic Tribes, it is just that, pretend.
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Posted: 04 May 2008 10:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
mormonstories
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Hey Folks!
 
My wife told me about this thread on a walk this morning (she heard about it through a neighborhood friend while I was in China). I've been away too long.  Hey folks!  Hey Jeff Ricks!!!
 
I guess I wouldn't take the "Mormon Humanist" thing too seriously, but here's what I was thinking when I put it in Facebook:
I consider myself Mormon by heritage/culture -- just as a Jew or Catholic might (regardless of their level of activity in the church)
Humanism is the world view I resonate most with these days.  Especially of this variety: http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/new_humanism/
Anyway -- all the best to my post-mormon homies!!!  Thanks for thinking of me.  It's an honor.
 
John Dehlin 


   


Posted: 05 May 2008 12:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
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Hi John, Good to hear from you! 

   


            
 
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Mormon Humanist ???  
Posted: 25 April 2008 05:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Rich McCue
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In the MormonStories.org thread Carter said:
 
All I know is that he [John Dehlin] started becoming overwhelmed with work, school and his mormonstories podcast. It has moved his energy over to a blog called mormon matters. And, he seems to always be willing to accept friends on facebook. Recently his religion said mormon universalist; now it says mormon humanist.
 
Any ideas what a "Mormon Humanist" is?  Wikipedia says that Humanism is: "a comprehensive life stance that upholds human reason, ethics, and justice, and rejects supernaturalism, pseudoscience and superstition."
 
Seems like the reason, supernaturalism, and supersititon don't mesh well with mormonism. "Mormon Humanist" sounds like an oxymoron to me.  Any other ideas that can make "Mormon Humanist" makes sense?
 
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Posted: 25 April 2008 05:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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I think you are exactly right! Those two words don't make any sense when you put them together! 

   


Posted: 25 April 2008 05:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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More from Wikipedia:
 
"According to Humanism, it is up to humans to find the truth, as opposed to seeking it through revelation, mysticism, tradition, or anything else that is incompatible with the application of logic to the observable evidence. In demanding that humans avoid blindly accepting unsupported beliefs, it supports scientific skepticism and the scientific method, rejecting authoritarianism and extreme skepticism, and rendering faith an unacceptable basis for action. Likewise, Humanism asserts that knowledge of right and wrong is based on the best understanding of one's individual and joint interests, rather than stemming from a transcendental truth or an arbitrarily local source."
 
That doesn't seem to fit with Mormonism at all.
 
 
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Posted: 25 April 2008 05:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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helemon
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Rich McCue:
In the MormonStories.org thread Carter said:
 
All I know is that he [John Dehlin] started becoming overwhelmed with work, school and his mormonstories podcast. It has moved his energy over to a blog called mormon matters. And, he seems to always be willing to accept friends on facebook. Recently his religion said mormon universalist; now it says mormon humanist.
 
Any ideas what a "Mormon Humanist" is?  Wikipedia says that Humanism is: "a comprehensive life stance that upholds human reason, ethics, and justice, and rejects supernaturalism, pseudoscience and superstition."
 
Seems like the reason, supernaturalism, and supersititon don't mesh well with mormonism. "Mormon Humanist" sounds like an oxymoron to me.  Any other ideas that can make "Mormon Humanist" makes sense?
 
 
 Mormon is his culture and heritage, Humanist is how he views the world.
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Posted: 25 April 2008 02:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Rich McCue:
 
  
Seems like the reason, supernaturalism, and supersititon don't mesh well with mormonism. "Mormon Humanist" sounds like an oxymoron to me.  Any other ideas that can make "Mormon Humanist" makes sense?
 

 Not only is Mormon Humanist an oxymoron.  The word Mormon itself is one.  Joseph Smith said that it's direct interpretation is "more good".  I don't see the mormon church as being more good.


   


Posted: 25 April 2008 02:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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helemon:
Rich McCue:
In the MormonStories.org thread Carter said:
 
All I know is that he [John Dehlin] started becoming overwhelmed with work, school and his mormonstories podcast. It has moved his energy over to a blog called mormon matters. And, he seems to always be willing to accept friends on facebook. Recently his religion said mormon universalist; now it says mormon humanist.
 
Any ideas what a "Mormon Humanist" is?  Wikipedia says that Humanism is: "a comprehensive life stance that upholds human reason, ethics, and justice, and rejects supernaturalism, pseudoscience and superstition."
 
Seems like the reason, supernaturalism, and supersititon don't mesh well with mormonism. "Mormon Humanist" sounds like an oxymoron to me.  Any other ideas that can make "Mormon Humanist" makes sense?
 
 
 Mormon is his culture and heritage, Humanist is how he views the world.
 
I can understood if "Mormon" is his ethnicity, as it were, but if he is truly a humanist then why does he bother to tell people that information about the church is reconciliable with belief in the church, which involves a good deal of supernaturalism, pseudoscience, superstition, and acceptance of dogma and authority?
 
I've always felt that Dehlin wants to have it both ways. 


   


Posted: 25 April 2008 02:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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I'm with WBF.
 
Dehlin's not the only one. I've mentioned this before but Nate Oman is somebody who gets in my craw, likewise for trying to have it both ways - supporting and feeding on a religion that is unvarnished balderdash and trying to somehow squirm out of declaring outright that they completely believe the balderdash, so as not to compromise their rationalist credentials.
 
They can't have it both ways and the sophistry that goes into maintaining the position of being a 'Mormon Humanist' - an utter oxymoron - is nothing short of nauseating.
 
This interview on Mormonstories.org with Nate Oman is a perfect example of the supercilious squirming I'm talking about. Nate Oman is of course the 'father of the bloggernacle' and one of the founders of Times and Seasons.
 
In the interview he gives some interesting facts about the early days of Mormon blogging, but more than that, he seems to be completely guilty of believing in Mormonism in a postmodern way, which is of course to not actually believe in Mormonism at all the way it advertises itself, and the way in which the LDS 'peasantry' believe in it.
 
I just wish they'd have the guts to come and say so frankly.
 
 
 
 
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Posted: 25 April 2008 03:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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WestBerkeleyFlats:
helemon:

Mormon is his culture and heritage, Humanist is how he views the world.
 
I can understood if "Mormon" is his ethnicity, as it were, but if he is truly a humanist then why does he bother to tell people that information about the church is reconciliable with belief in the church, which involves a good deal of supernaturalism, pseudoscience, superstition, and acceptance of dogma and authority?
 
I've always felt that Dehlin wants to have it both ways. 
 
I guess that makes sense.  When I initially left the church I was telling people that I was a non-practicing mormon (sort of like how I'd heard some jewish friends refer to themselves non-practicing jews).  Now if it comes up I tell people I used to be a member of the church but am not now... which I think is a better way to let people know where I'm coming from, but at the same time distance myself from the church's magical beliefs.
 
I can see now how "Mormon Humanist" could be descriptive of where John's at.  Mormon culture and back ground, but humanist in belief and outlook.  That perspective just wasn't obvious to me at first.
 
Right now I'm listening to the Mormonmatters.org podcasts on "Inoculation".  From my perspective now, their arguments just seem ridiculous:  Give faithful members a little bit of the bad news about church history in a controlled setting, so that hopefully that their negative reaction can be managed and overcome.  As opposed to letting people find out about the seeder aspects of church history on their own, and do the natural thing and head for the nearest exit door.  I know a few people who keep up the facade of faithfulness at least in part to keep the peace on the family front.    
 
Just my 2 cents worth. 
 
 
 
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Posted: 25 April 2008 03:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Rich McCue:
WestBerkeleyFlats:
helemon:

Mormon is his culture and heritage, Humanist is how he views the world.
 
I can understood if "Mormon" is his ethnicity, as it were, but if he is truly a humanist then why does he bother to tell people that information about the church is reconciliable with belief in the church, which involves a good deal of supernaturalism, pseudoscience, superstition, and acceptance of dogma and authority?
 
I've always felt that Dehlin wants to have it both ways. 
 
I guess that makes sense.  When I initially left the church I was telling people that I was a non-practicing mormon (sort of like how I'd heard some jewish friends refer to themselves non-practicing jews).  Now if it comes up I tell people I used to be a member of the church but am not now... which I think is a better way to let people know where I'm coming from, but at the same time distance myself from the church's magical beliefs.
 
I can see now how "Mormon Humanist" could be descriptive of where John's at.  Mormon culture and back ground, but humanist in belief and outlook.  That perspective just wasn't obvious to me at first.
 
Right now I'm listening to the Mormonmatters.org podcasts on "Inoculation".  From my perspective now, their arguments just seem ridiculous:  Give faithful members a little bit of the bad news about church history in a controlled setting, so that hopefully that their negative reaction can be managed and overcome.  As opposed to letting people find out about the seeder aspects of church history on their own, and do the natural thing and head for the nearest exit door.  I know a few people who keep up the facade of faithfulness at least in part to keep the peace on the family front.    
 
Just my 2 cents worth. 
 
 
 
Perhaps my point is that one can be a "Mormon humanist," and there have always been those types who have some affiliation with the church or culture for a variety of reasons, but it makes more sense to me to be one and be in essence a New Order Mormon, which traditionally most of these types have been.  Such people are much more likely to say something along the lines of "The church's history is messed up and the church institutionally is still somewhat messed up, but there are some goods things about the community and what members have done with the tradition."  It's the people who want to present themselves as rationalists but then engage in apologetics or "inoculation" that strike me as annoying, given that I think that they do these things primarily to rationalize their own personal position.   
 


   


Posted: 25 April 2008 03:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Rich McCue:
WestBerkeleyFlats:
helemon:

Mormon is his culture and heritage, Humanist is how he views the world.
 
I can understood if "Mormon" is his ethnicity, as it were, but if he is truly a humanist then why does he bother to tell people that information about the church is reconciliable with belief in the church, which involves a good deal of supernaturalism, pseudoscience, superstition, and acceptance of dogma and authority?
 
I've always felt that Dehlin wants to have it both ways. 
 
I guess that makes sense.  When I initially left the church I was telling people that I was a non-practicing mormon (sort of like how I'd heard some jewish friends refer to themselves non-practicing jews).  Now if it comes up I tell people I used to be a member of the church but am not now... which I think is a better way to let people know where I'm coming from, but at the same time distance myself from the church's magical beliefs.
 
I can see now how "Mormon Humanist" could be descriptive of where John's at.  Mormon culture and back ground, but humanist in belief and outlook.  That perspective just wasn't obvious to me at first.
 
Right now I'm listening to the Mormonmatters.org podcasts on "Inoculation".  From my perspective now, their arguments just seem ridiculous:  Give faithful members a little bit of the bad news about church history in a controlled setting, so that hopefully that their negative reaction can be managed and overcome.  As opposed to letting people find out about the seeder aspects of church history on their own, and do the natural thing and head for the nearest exit door.
 
Just my 2 cents worth. 
 
 
 
I don't think inoculation will work given the belief structure of Mormonism.  Knowledge is paramount in Mormon belief.  No one in testimony meetings say "I believe" or even worse "I hope" - you can't be saved in ignorance - you have to know.  If you know the prophet speaks for God, that is a lot different than hoping and believing.  The belief structure of the church lacks faith - it actually says faith itself is bad - you're not worthy if you can't say "I know" (of course some will argue with me on this).  Faith allows for errors whereas knowledge does not.  I think the church will change into a faith based belief system so that it can survive, but this will in no way reflect the foundation upon which it was built!
 


   


Posted: 25 April 2008 04:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Is "Mormon Humanist" a step further down the path away from mormon spiritual tradition than "Mormon Universalist," the tag that Dehlin used to use?
 
Dehlin is a fan of the Fowler model. Seems like, using Fowler's model, that the natural course for somebody who continues on in spiritual growth is to be humanist first (stage 4) and then to grow into a more universalist view of the world (stage 5).
 
At times Dehlin himself would comment to contributors of his blog who were quibbling over historical interpretations and what they mean to mormon practitioners today to, instead of engaging in heated volleys, reach for Stage 5 of Fowlers model. In other words, I got the sense that his hope was to encourage a constructive dialog that surpasses the fundamental disagreements over history and that transcends the boundaries that mormons themselves erect.
 
So, does "Mormon Humanist" mean he has retreated?
 
This whole movement is very interesting. According to Fowler's observations, it's not possible for a person to skip a developmental phase, for example, go from stage 3 (clearly where the mormon religion stands today) to stage 5, thus skipping the pain of stage 4 in which a belief system and corresponding world view is demythologized.
 
Perhaps this is true for whole communities as well. Perhaps Mormonism in general will have to go through the reality and existential pain of stage 4 if it is to survive and retain some meaningful presence in the future world.
 
Interestingly, I think the Catholic church has spent the past several decades enduring the pain of stage 4. The recent visit by the Pope sheds light on a new approach that could be the beginning of leading the membership into stage 5. The Pope apologized over and over for the priest sex abuse and even met with victims, allowing them to express their uncensored grief. He spoke about combining forces with leaders of other religions to make positive contributions to the world. He continues to make a point to visit with other leaders in their environments: a Jewish synagogue and a Muslim mosque. It appears that he is attempting to lead the church out of past ideologies and dogmas into a more universalist vision and approach.
 
What do you think? Am I reading too much into Dehlin's new tag and the movement in general?


   


Posted: 25 April 2008 04:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Interesting thread. I dont care much for Mormon Culture so adhereing to it once beyond one's Mormon Faith seems useless to me. I was so glad to chuck the whole thing. It felt, and continues to feel so good. 
 
 
Dehlin seems like a decent man. I see him as an enabler though. Again. Unhealthy.
 
 
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Posted: 25 April 2008 04:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Timber,
 
Interesting perspective. I'm not familiar with Fowler's model but I think the comparision of RC and the Morg is apt in some ways, at least because both - unlike general protestantism - claim direct authority from God.
 
In fact, you've made me wonder about the difference between the claim to authority between the Catholic Church and the LDS church. As far as I can tell, the difference is that the Pope claims authority by lineage and god-ordained interpretation - which is perhaps why an academic theologian now heads the RC Church, whereas the LDS church claims continuing direct revelation, although in practice it is also clearly an interpretive exercise. Weirdly, from the view of rank and file members of either church, it seems to boil down to inspired leadership however you cut it.
 
 
But back on the topic of the thread, I don't see how Mormonism can slide up any scale between literalist and metaphorical belief without immediately compromising all its restoration claims, BoM claims and authority claims.
 
Yet in practice, Mormons such as Dehlin do, when you listen to them, seem to be somewhere on precisely such a scale. And some GAs also, GBH not least among them, reading between the lines, seem to be clinging to this absolute authority while shying away from literalist statements.
 
For me it's one of the most surreal things about Mormonism that it makes such a song and dance about literalist claims that are patent nonsense, and wants to base its authority on them, while employing evasive language that tries to suggest a more metaphorical, humanist or universalist stance, so as to avoid being tarred with the brush of superstitious ignorance.
 
 
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Posted: 25 April 2008 07:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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I would tell you what I think of this, but I am late for the "Mormon atheists for Allah" meeting.


   


Posted: 25 April 2008 09:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Rich McCue:

Right now I'm listening to the Mormonmatters.org podcasts on "Inoculation".  From my perspective now, their arguments just seem ridiculous:  Give faithful members a little bit of the bad news about church history in a controlled setting, so that hopefully that their negative reaction can be managed and overcome.  As opposed to letting people find out about the seeder aspects of church history on their own, and do the natural thing and head for the nearest exit door.  I know a few people who keep up the facade of faithfulness at least in part to keep the peace on the family front.    
 
 
 
 It sounds like just more brainwashing to me. A way to de-sensitize them to the truth so they still keep believing and paying that 10%.
 
 
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Posted: 25 April 2008 10:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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Winyan:
Rich McCue:

Right now I'm listening to the Mormonmatters.org podcasts on "Inoculation".  From my perspective now, their arguments just seem ridiculous:  Give faithful members a little bit of the bad news about church history in a controlled setting, so that hopefully that their negative reaction can be managed and overcome.  As opposed to letting people find out about the seeder aspects of church history on their own, and do the natural thing and head for the nearest exit door.  I know a few people who keep up the facade of faithfulness at least in part to keep the peace on the family front.    
 
 
 
 It sounds like just more brainwashing to me. A way to de-sensitize them to the truth so they still keep believing and paying that 10%.
 
 
 This made me lol--both posts did.  I love how you both boil this down to it's basic elements: mind control and damage control.  Lovely.
 

 


   


Posted: 25 April 2008 10:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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bamboom:

For me it's one of the most surreal things about Mormonism that it makes such a song and dance about literalist claims that are patent nonsense, and wants to base its authority on them, while employing evasive language that tries to suggest a more metaphorical, humanist or universalist stance, so as to avoid being tarred with the brush of superstitious ignorance.
 
 
 
I had an interesting conversation with a close relative a couple of months ago.  He was excitedly telling me about an Ensign article, or something he read on the lds.org website, that said that most of the time when the prophet (or GA's) speak, they are just speaking as men, and not as Prophets.   Only when they preface their statments with "Thus sayth the Lord..." would we need to take what they say as revelation from God. 
 
I responed by saying that it was great that they were telling the members this, but if most of what the General Authorities say is not revelation from God, then why can't we have a reasoned discussion with them about the decisions they make and the advice they give?  That was the end of the conversation... he paused, and then moved on to another topic with out looking back.
 
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Posted: 25 April 2008 10:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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Rich McCue:
I had an interesting conversation with a close relative a couple of months ago.  He was excitedly telling me about an Ensign article, or something he read on the lds.org website, that said that most of the time when the prophet (or GA's) speak, they are just speaking as men, and not as Prophets.   Only when they preface their statments with "Thus sayth the Lord..." would we need to take what they say as revelation from God. 
 
I responed by saying that it was great that they were telling the members this, but if most of what the General Authorities say is not revelation from God, then why can't we have a reasoned discussion with them about the decisions they make and the advice they give?  That was the end of the conversation... he paused, and then moved on to another topic with out looking back.
 
 
What was he thinking?  Were you supposed to say, "Oh!  Okay then.  I guess I'll go back to church."  It's so frustrating when family members bring up religion but then don't care to hear your side of it.


   


Posted: 25 April 2008 10:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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Mormon Humanist? Why not... There are lots of categories out there like this that make equally good sense, Mormon Pagans, Mormon Satanists, Mormon White Supremacists, Mormon fundamentalists, Mormon UFO abuductees, Mormon Anonymous, The list goes on and on... 
 
Ultimately what it means in general is: mormon on the outside, humanist on the inside.
 
Come on out dehlin... There is a sunny happy world outside of the closet!


   


Posted: 27 April 2008 11:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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Rich McCue:
bamboom:

For me it's one of the most surreal things about Mormonism that it makes such a song and dance about literalist claims that are patent nonsense, and wants to base its authority on them, while employing evasive language that tries to suggest a more metaphorical, humanist or universalist stance, so as to avoid being tarred with the brush of superstitious ignorance.
 
 
 
I had an interesting conversation with a close relative a couple of months ago.  He was excitedly telling me about an Ensign article, or something he read on the lds.org website, that said that most of the time when the prophet (or GA's) speak, they are just speaking as men, and not as Prophets.   Only when they preface their statments with "Thus sayth the Lord..." would we need to take what they say as revelation from God. 
 
I responed by saying that it was great that they were telling the members this, but if most of what the General Authorities say is not revelation from God, then why can't we have a reasoned discussion with them about the decisions they make and the advice they give?  That was the end of the conversation... he paused, and then moved on to another topic with out looking back.
 
 
When was the last time any GA said, "Thus sayeth the Lord...."?
 
I have a pet theory that 'continuing revelation' is no longer possible in the overt sense, because the church membership more and more subconsciously relegate all the dramatic stuff to the past, especially as they become mainstream and are eager to show they're 'reasonable' people. Can you imagine what the actual response would be if Monson stood up at conference and said he'd had a direct revelation from God and/or Jesus? I wager there would be discomfort. The Church has become so banal and its leaders have become such banal management types - that many members in the tabernacle would have an awareness of not believing that Monson had really had any such thing.
 
Apart from that -  what exactly are the dividing lines between 'eternal verities' and 'continuing revelation' (adaptation in the face of circumstances), between GA's speaking on behalf of god and speaking merely as men, between any church leader or member being guided by the 'promptings of the spirit' and the promptings merely of common sense, their own egos or expediency?
 
It's impossible to ever nail down. The goal posts are always being moved and when it comes to the crunch, you get the response you mention, where the subject is just avoided. And even when there is a willingness to discuss the issues, the Church and its membership have become suffused with 'doublespeak', where an escape route is always provided in the evasive language used about everything. In fact, much like the 'doublespeak' that evolved in the Soviet Union amongst Russians who were confronted by a clearly flawed ideology and tortuously contrived mythology on the one hand, and the conflicting facts of reality on the other.
 
 
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Posted: 30 April 2008 03:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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Nice thread Rich.  Thanks for starting it.
 
I have not corresponded with Dehlin, but have with Oman and have thought a lot about the position they and others like them occupy.  From my point of view, they do much more good than ill.  People like them are intellectual leaders within the Mormon community.  The example they set is highly influential in many ways.  The more tolerant the Mormon community becomes of people like them, the less dogmatic it will be. 

Mormonism is probably headed toward a bifurcation between behavior (often referred to as "praxis" in this context) and belief.  Large parts of the Jewish community went down this road a long time ago.  The authoritarian grip of Mormonism's leaders on the average community member will probably loosen as this process continues.  The other route, which has been shown to lead to much higher average growth rates, is to assiduously remove all dissidents from the group and to raise the required behavioral standard.  The Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, have gone this route and have significantly higher growth rates than the Mormons.
 
I think we need to be pragmatic with regard to what is doable in terms of changing a large community.  Dehlin and his type offer a stepping stone within the Mormon community for many people who are struggling with its basic beliefs.  However, many of those who step to that stone will keep on stepping, instead of remaining where Dehlin is.  This is what happened in my case, in your case, and in many other cases with which we are familiar.
 
The discipline of semiotics (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiotics) is one of the most useful when it comes to understanding how and why people use words like "humanist".  This is where I finally get back to your point. 

I don't know enough about Dehlin’s views to comment with regard to his use of the term "Mormon humanist".  However, I am intimately familiar with another similar term - "religious naturalist".  I played a significant role in drafting the wikipedia entry for that term (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_naturalism).  I abandoned that process part way through when it became clear that the people with whom I was working had, for the most part, a radically different definition in mind than I had.  We had been dealing with each other extensively for a couple of years at that point, and I thought that I understood their beliefs and they thought that they understood mine.  That was not the case.  What I and some others in the group had in mind when we used the term "religious naturalism" was a completely naturalized or humanistic view of religious phenomena.  I prefer, by the way, to use the term "naturalist" with regard to myself instead of "humanist", because the naturalist term is broader.  Some people use them as synonyms.
 
Some of my friends, on the other hand, were using the term "religious naturalism" in the oxymoronic sense that some posters on the thread above think Dehlin is using the term "Mormon humanist".  That is, they were consciously or unconsciously attempting to borrow the prestige of the term "naturalism" with regard to religious views that were definitely not naturalistic.  It was only the disciplined process of drafting and attempting to agree upon definitional language that brought our basic disagreement into view.  Our desire to get along had subconsciously truncated our ability to accurately perceive each other's beliefs.  Our historic need to remain connected to important social groups likely explains this purposeful, if unconscious, inattentive tendency.
 
The study of semiotics gets into how the way in which we signify things changes, and the games we play, for the most part subconsciously, with each other in that regard. 
 
As it turns out, the ability to "noun" something is an incredible power.  Without a noun, we must use adjectives to describe what it is we are trying to communicate.  Once we develop a noun, the adjectives are buried and so in many cases become less likely to be challenged and therefore more likely to become part of our basic assumptions with regard to reality -- our epistemic wallpaper.  The same thing can happen with verbs and adjectives, but when you noun something you usually cover much more territory than is the case with other word types.

The use of nouns in this sense has another important function.  It anesthetizes some of the pain that occurs during social evolution.  It allows, for example, people to talk endlessly about "god” without effectively communicating what is in each other's heads and therefore avoiding argument in that regard.  This happens because the adjectival description of what each person has in mind when she says "god" are not stated, and tend to be assumed by the person hearing the term to be the same as the hearer has in his head.  This is precisely what happened re. the term "religious naturalism" above.   We were part of the same group.  We were friends.  We respected each other.  How could we not hold more or less the same beliefs with regard to something we all regarded as of foundational importance?

One of the easiest ways to get feathers flying is to press people for a precise description of what they have in mind when they use certain important nouns.
 
Another example.  At the liberal fringe of the Christian theological arena a number of leading theologians now use the term "god" to signify the so far inscrutable, immense creative force within nature.  They are, in some cases, religious naturalists in the sense that I use that term.  Whatever the basic creative force is, they say, that is god.  It is probably impersonal.  It probably has no awareness of us and may be incapable of being aware of us.  Reality was probably not created with us in mind, or for any purpose having to do with us.  We probably just "happened".  These people go back for support in this regard to the “negative theology” that has existed in most of the major religious traditions.  That is, for example, it is blasphemy to attempt to describe god in positive terms because he/she/it is so immense and we are so puny that we have no chance of getting the description right.  Therefore the only legitimate description of God is with regard to what God is not.  By very circuitous route, this arrives at something that resembles a naturalistic conception of God.
 
Of course, when conservative members of the same religious groups that have given rise to these theologians find out what their theologians actually have in mind when they say "god", all hell breaks loose.  However, over the course of a generation or two, the consistent use of a single word to mean different things is a tremendous facilitator for social change.  The young people can worship God along with the older people, each having completely different entities in mind in that regard, while continuing to enjoy important family and social relationships.
 
So, I don't really know what John Dehlin means when he says that he is a Mormon humanist, but the misuse of terms like that has a long, honorable history when it comes to facilitating painful social change. 

Think of the use of terms within the Mormon community like "testimony", "I know the Church is true", etc.  Think of the key words used in the temple recommend interview, and the power it confers on individuals when they start to use their own definitions of those words when answering the recommend questions, without explaining what they have in mind.  Note that the structure of the recommend interview itself encourages this kind of behavior. 

As people like Dehlin and Oman demonstrate a post-modernish tendency to give words (nouns like "prophet", verbs like "know" and "obey" and adjectives like "authorized" or "eternal") meanings with which they are comfortable and that differ from the meaning Mormon leaders surely have in mind, this constitutes a radical transfer of power from the leaders to the people.  This is good. 

It also creates an awkward halfway house that had no attraction for me.  It tends to corrupt those who learn to communicate in this at best dodgy and at worst deceptive manner.  It represents a double mindedness that I think is profoundly unprodutive.  I could not imagine inflicting this worldview and its behavioral foibles on my children.

In the end, however, I think this approach offers more upside than down within the Mormon community.  It is the "lesser evil" when all the altertives are considered.  And, more to the point, it is one of the bridges that will be built from the current much worse mainstream Mormon paradigm toward something that has a better change of becoming functional.  
 
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Posted: 30 April 2008 04:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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Rich McCue:

Right now I'm listening to the Mormonmatters.org podcasts on "Inoculation".  From my perspective now, their arguments just seem ridiculous:  Give faithful members a little bit of the bad news about church history in a controlled setting, so that hopefully that their negative reaction can be managed and overcome.  As opposed to letting people find out about the seeder aspects of church history on their own, and do the natural thing and head for the nearest exit door.  I know a few people who keep up the facade of faithfulness at least in part to keep the peace on the family front.    
 
Just my 2 cents worth. 
 
 
 
 I'm in total agreement  with you on this.  It wasn't very long ago that GBH stood up in church and said "Either all of it is true or none of it is true."  Put that in conjuction with a few issues like the Book of Abraham and you would have a mass exodus.  
 
Basically, I moved through a few stages before I left and I would have to say "Mormon Humanist" came about as close as anything else in describing my philosophy.  That is; I am a Mormon by birth, Humanist by choice. 
 
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Posted: 30 April 2008 04:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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My brother knows Dehlin and seems to have a similar feeling that there may be hope to change the church from within and that members can go through a slow warming up to the reality of things (aka all the bs).  I watch as my brother tries to tempt family members to think outside the Happy Valley box with emails that are provocative, but not overly so.  I don't see it working.  It is almost as if he is hoping to have someone come along with him (he hasn't resigned) to validate his feelings and newly acquired knowledge.  My support doesn't count because TBM family and friends already know where I stand and don't want my responses.  Anyway, I feel I understand the hopes of those like Dehlin and my brother.  I think the greater personal happiness is to just call BS when you see it and start your new life based on facts and reality.  Then words like "Mormon Humanist" will remain as absurd as they sound.
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Posted: 30 April 2008 04:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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Rich McCue:
In the MormonStories.org thread Carter said:
 
All I know is that he [John Dehlin] started becoming overwhelmed with work, school and his mormonstories podcast. It has moved his energy over to a blog called mormon matters. And, he seems to always be willing to accept friends on facebook. Recently his religion said mormon universalist; now it says mormon humanist.
 
Any ideas what a "Mormon Humanist" is?  Wikipedia says that Humanism is: "a comprehensive life stance that upholds human reason, ethics, and justice, and rejects supernaturalism, pseudoscience and superstition."
 
Seems like the reason, supernaturalism, and supersititon don't mesh well with mormonism. "Mormon Humanist" sounds like an oxymoron to me.  Any other ideas that can make "Mormon Humanist" makes sense?
 
 
As others have pointed out, the "Mormon" part of "Mormon Humanist" refers to his religious tradition of his inheritance. Sort of like Einstein was a Jew, even though he rejected the Judaism and any kind of traditional religious dogma. There are a whole lot of Jews in that category. I don't have any problem with somebody identifying themselves in "humanist" terms. I've known other Mormons I'd consider "Sunstone Mormon" (those who openly question their faith, lovingly) who call themselves "Mormon Deists". Which seems like another OxyMoron, but for them, it works.
 
These sorts of labels are ways for individuals to stay off Cognitive Dissonance by partitioning off the conflicting ideas. I did it for many years, first as a well educated Mormon who completely accepted the theory of evolution as a scientific fact, even on my mission as I taught the plan of Salvation, complete with the Garden of Eden fairy tale, as if it were fact.
 
It is a form of self delusion.
 
We are indoctrinated on how to brainwash ourselves into believing things that are absurd, by ignoring the evidence to the contrary, at least temprorarily, by teaching absurd things, testifying of absurd things we don't really believe, which worked for me up until I had my own children who asked me sincere questions I could not honestly answer. I couldn't lie to my kids. It's one thing to lie to yourself or others, it's an entirely different thing to lie to your own children. When I attempted to resolve my serious doubts through the proper channels, over many years, asking a whole series of bishops serious questions about my faith, not only did none of them have any real answers to my questions, I was threatened with punishment if I shared my doubts with other Mormons. When I asked if that meant my wife and children I was told, "Yes".
 
That is the point at which Mormonism became completely untennable to me, when it infringed on my constitutionally guaranteed freedom of speech, at which point it became abundantly clear to me that the primary concern of the Mormon church was not establishing truth, but in maintaining it's false superficial image as the ultimate authority of an imaginary God, which it uses to exploit its followers, and deny them their freedom, as it always has and always will, as long as people choose to identify themselves as Mormon.
 
My experience has been that it is an extreamly oppressive religion. The fact that John Dalin is not disciplined for pointing out the critical structural failures of Mormonism is beyond me. How is it that I was threatened with discipline for speaking honestly with my wife and children while this guy gets away with publicly broadcasting the major problems with Mormonism with zero discipline?
 
Maybe I misinterpretted my Bishop and he was just trying to buffalo me into feigned belief and it was a hallow threat, who knows? But it really doesn't matter. It is what it is, an exploitative, extreamly oppressive belief system and I'm just glad I can be honest with my children and not have to fear being disciplined for excercising my constitutionally guaranteed freedoms and more importantly, niether do my children or future generations of my family.
 
Where Judaism and Mormonism differ is that Judaism is an actual ethnicity, whereas Mormonism is not, although they pretend to be adopted into certain Semetic Tribes, it is just that, pretend.
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Posted: 04 May 2008 10:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
mormonstories
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Hey Folks!
 
My wife told me about this thread on a walk this morning (she heard about it through a neighborhood friend while I was in China). I've been away too long.  Hey folks!  Hey Jeff Ricks!!!
 
I guess I wouldn't take the "Mormon Humanist" thing too seriously, but here's what I was thinking when I put it in Facebook:
I consider myself Mormon by heritage/culture -- just as a Jew or Catholic might (regardless of their level of activity in the church)
Humanism is the world view I resonate most with these days.  Especially of this variety: http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/new_humanism/
Anyway -- all the best to my post-mormon homies!!!  Thanks for thinking of me.  It's an honor.
 
John Dehlin 


   


Posted: 05 May 2008 12:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
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Hi John, Good to hear from you! 

   


            
 
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Any sites like this for Jehovah’s Witnesses?  
Posted: 30 November 2007 01:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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I love the way this site is organized and how the participants are accepting and supportive. I know it's a long shot, being a postmo group, but is anyone familiar with a similar site for ex-JWs?
 
We have a family member who has some serious issues to deal with regarding them and he's run across a lot of chat groups but they seem to be just evangelical christians waiting for someone unsuspecting to wander in, or worse, JWs lurking and waiting to pounce. Not being familiar with that group I'm having a hard time recognizing the legit and potentially helpful. 
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Posted: 30 November 2007 01:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Exmofo
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I think the JW have it worst tham exmo's. I have a friend who is a exJW. His whole family rejected him and severed all contact. Then...LOL..LOL his wife joined the Morg! He had some wacky stories to share indeed. 

   


Posted: 30 November 2007 02:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Exmofo:
I think the JW have it worst tham exmo's. I have a friend who is a exJW. His whole family rejected him and severed all contact. Then...LOL..LOL his wife joined the Morg! He had some wacky stories to share indeed.
 
Exmofo,
 
That supports my theory that unless we get a grip on the underlying psychological dynamic that we were involved in, and outgrow it, then we will just attract/be attracted to another version of the same craziness. 
 
DW and I went from the Morg to a New Age cultish setting.  Both thrived on dysfunctional personal boundaries and woundedness. We got burnt a second time, but woke up quicker. There are some advantages in getting older/wiser!
 
To see all the problem in the Morg and ignore the part within ourselves is a real trap.
 
Sorry I cannot suggest anything for ex JWs. I also am of the understanding that do it much worse than PostMos. But there must be support structures out there. 
 
God-fearing/loving people are just so nice, aren't they? (Sick vengeful shits) 
 
Daryl 
 
PS: Interestingly I find I have a great affinity with people who have walked from MO, SDA & JW. Many are very bright, wise souls.
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Posted: 30 November 2007 02:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
Exmofo
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Born Free:
Exmofo:
I think the JW have it worst tham exmo's. I have a friend who is a exJW. His whole family rejected him and severed all contact. Then...LOL..LOL his wife joined the Morg! He had some wacky stories to share indeed.
 
Exmofo,
 
That supports my theory that unless we get a grip on the underlying psychological dynamic that we were involved in, and outgrow it, then we will just attract/be attracted to another version of the same craziness. 
 
DW and I went from the Morg to a New Age cultish setting.  Both thrived on dysfunctional personal boundaries and woundedness. We got burnt a second time, but woke up quicker. There are some advantages in getting older/wiser!
 
To see all the problem in the Morg and ignore the part within ourselves is a real trap.
 
Sorry I cannot suggest anything for ex JWs. I also am of the understanding that do it much worse than PostMos. But there must be support structures out there. 
 
God-fearing/loving people are just so nice, aren't they? (Sick vengeful shits) 
 
Daryl 
 
PS: Interestingly I find I have a great affinity with people who have walked from MO, SDA & JW. Many are very bright, wise souls.
 
I like Godless without fear and personal peace as a remedy. Just as the actor states in Nacho Libra... "I believe in science" LOL I hope you know the line!


   


Posted: 30 November 2007 03:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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I just found this site hope it helps.
 
.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
 
I read a few of the posts in the forum there. One talked about the isue of not recieving blood transfusions.
 
I found another site for muslims leaving Islam.
 
FaithFreedom.org
 
I have been looking for ex-Jewish and ex-hindu sites as well.
 
From what I have seen so far I am happy that many people in the world are waking up.


   


Posted: 30 November 2007 04:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Wow. Here's an excerpt from "A Letter to Humanity" on the faithfreedom.org site.
 
 
 
We urge the Muslims to leave Islam. Stop with excuses, justifications and rationalizations. Stop dividing mankind into "us" vs. "them" and Muslims vs. Kafirs. We are One people, One mankind! Muhammad was not a messenger of God. It is time that we end this insanity and face the truth. The terrorists take their moral support and the validation for their actions from you. Your very adherence to their cult of death is a nod of approval for their crimes against humanity.
 
We also urge the non-Muslims to stop being politically correct lest they hurt the sensitivities of the Muslims. To Hell with their sensitivities! Let us save their lives, and the lives of millions of innocent people.
 
Millions, if not billions of lives will be lost if we do nothing. Time is running out! "All it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing." Do something! Send this message to everyone in your address book and ask them to do the same. Defeat Islam and stop terrorism. This is your world, save it.
 
 
 
They're not messing around.
 


   


Posted: 30 November 2007 04:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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http://members.aol.com/Beyondjw/bj.htm#MSGBRD
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Posted: 30 November 2007 05:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Dogzilla might have an answer to this question.  'Zilla? 
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Posted: 30 November 2007 07:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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If you want a firsthand referral, we were fortunate to have a poster sign up at thefoyer.org named Princess Nona who is an ex-JW and frequented ex-JW boards. I haven't seen her around recently, but if you PM'ed her over there she'd get an email notification and I'm sure she'd be happy to help. You could also try searching her name on that site if you want to read about how her experience compared to some of ours.
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Posted: 30 November 2007 09:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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The Jehovah's Witnesses was begun by Charles Taze Russell in 1872. He was born on February 16, 1852, the son of Joseph L. and Anna Eliza Russell. He had great difficulty in dealing with the doctrine of eternal hell fire and in his studies came to deny not only eternal punishment, but also the Trinity, and the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit. "In 1870, at the age of 18, Russell organized a Bible class in Pittsburgh." In 1879 he sought to popularize his aberrant ideas on doctrine. He co-published The Herald of the Morning magazine with its founder, N. H. Barbour and by 1884 Russell controlled the publication and renamed it The Watchtower Announcing Jehovah's Kingdom, and founded Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society (now known as the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society). The first edition of The Watchtower magazine was only 6,000 copies each month. Today the Witnesses' publishing complex in Brooklyn, New York, churns out 100,000 books and 800,000 copies of its two magazines--daily!"  
     Russell claimed that the Bible could be only understood according to his interpretations. A dangerous arrangement since he controlled what was written in the Watchtower magazine.
      After the death of Russell on Oct. 31, 1916, a Missouri lawyer named Joseph Franklin Rutherford took over the presidency of the Watch Tower Society which was known then as the Dawn Bible Students Association. In 1931 he changed the name of the organization to "The Jehovah's Witnesses."
      After Rutherford's death, Nathan Knorr took over. After Knorr, Frederick William Franz became president.
      Today the Society is led by Mr. Henschel. The group has over 4 million members world wide. The Watchtower Society statistics indicate that 740 house calls are required to recruit each of the nearly 200,000 new members who join every year.
      The J.W.'s have several ‘book studies' each week. The members are not required to attend, but there is a level of expectation that gently urges converts to participate. It is during these ‘book studies' that the J.W. is constantly exposed to counter Christian teachings. The average J.W., with his constant Watchtower indoctrination, could easily pummel the average Christian when it comes to defending his beliefs.
      The J.W.'s vehemently portray the doctrine of the Trinity as pagan in origin and that Christendom, as a whole, has bought the lie of the devil. Along with denying the Trinity is an equally strong denial of the deity of Christ, the deity of the Holy Spirit, the belief in hell, and eternal conscious punishment in hell.
 
 

JW's are more messed up than MORmON's.  I guess at least my dillusions have been around longer, LOL.

Here are some ex JW boards and recovery boards:
http://p196.ezboard.com/ExJehovahs-Witness-Forum-and-Recovery-Site/bexjehovahswitnessforum
 
http://members.aol.com/beyondjw/bj.htm#MSGBRD
 
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/139.html?1195543350
 
http://www.exjws.net/meetpeople/boards.htm
 
http://www.spiritandsky.com/skeptics/christianity/jehovah_s-witnesses/personal-experiences/ 
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Posted: 30 November 2007 02:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Looks like Enigma posted most of the sites I know about.

Here's another one:

http://www.spotlightministries.org.uk/jwmain.htm
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Posted: 30 November 2007 02:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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http://www.justanotherjerkoffreligion.org
 
I have some in-laws who are Jdubs.  My BIL is hanging in there for the marriage, etc., but wants his kids OUT.  His wife is dyed-in-the-wool and doesn't understand why anyone would question the faith.  Sound familiar?  They are probably doomed as a couple.
 
BTW, the link above is fake
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Posted: 30 November 2007 03:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Dutch:
http://www.justanotherjerkoffreligion.org
 
I have some in-laws who are Jdubs.  My BIL is hanging in there for the marriage, etc., but wants his kids OUT.  His wife is dyed-in-the-wool and doesn't understand why anyone would question the faith.  Sound familiar?  They are probably doomed as a couple.
 
BTW, the link above is fake
 
 Hey, it's probably for sale, LOL You could buy it and start a new jerk off religion. Men would be lined up at your door. Just add a couple of stripper poles and strippers!
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A Mormon?! But I’m from Earth! - Homer Simpson..
I’m sorry, but if I agreed with you, we’d both be wrong! As it is I refuse to have a ‘Battle Of Wits’ with an unarmed person!


   


Posted: 30 November 2007 08:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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Dutch:
http://www.justanotherjerkoffreligion.org
 
I have some in-laws who are Jdubs.  My BIL is hanging in there for the marriage, etc., but wants his kids OUT.  His wife is dyed-in-the-wool and doesn't understand why anyone would question the faith.  Sound familiar?  They are probably doomed as a couple.
 
BTW, the link above is fake
 
Let's go in together and buy the domain, Dutch. It'll be a hoot.
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Posted: 30 November 2007 09:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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I post as FormerMormon at http://www.jehovahs-witness.com.  The site is an active recovery board for former JW's.  I just got through with a heated debate with two asshole TBMs there.  Why active LDS are there I don't know.  I really shouldn't enjoy the victories.  It reminds me too much of those damnable mission memories.
 
They enjoy exmo posters.  We really are kindred spirits recovering from similar cult models.
 
Check em out.


   


Posted: 30 November 2007 09:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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Crime Dog:
Dutch:
http://www.justanotherjerkoffreligion.org
 
I have some in-laws who are Jdubs.  My BIL is hanging in there for the marriage, etc., but wants his kids OUT.  His wife is dyed-in-the-wool and doesn't understand why anyone would question the faith.  Sound familiar?  They are probably doomed as a couple.
 
BTW, the link above is fake
 
Let's go in together and buy the domain, Dutch. It'll be a hoot.
 
Sounds fun.
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Quick Question - what is JW?  
Posted: 12 October 2007 02:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Baroque Dust
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JW is not in glossary of terms.
What does it mean.  
I've seen it a few times now,
and I have no idea what the poster
is referring to.
 
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Posted: 12 October 2007 02:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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for cryin out loud:
JW is not in glossary of terms.
What does it mean.  
I've seen it a few times now,
and I have no idea what the poster
is referring to.
 
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Jehovah's Witness?
 
link here
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Posted: 12 October 2007 02:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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JW - is a Jehovah's Witness. Normally it is pronounced "J-dub"
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Posted: 12 October 2007 02:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Rhight, OK, thanks. Dah-hook
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Posted: 12 October 2007 03:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Damn. I thought it was Johnnie Walker. I spent a fortune stocking up because I heard only 144,000 would be saved at the apocalypse, and I didn't want to run out.
 
 
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My First Ever JW Experience  
Posted: 27 April 2007 04:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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So this kinda cute couple shows up at my door w an mordern translation of the Bible and a pamphlet to explain the prophecies and stuff in the Bible more fully.  They asked me which picture I liked best - I am just kind of looking at them thinking "The best you can do is a picture?"  So I pick up the book, look in the front for publishing or church info - nothing.  So then I flip to the back and therre it is - Jehovah's Witnesses.  To be honest I am a little surprised there are JWs in the Logan area, and even more so that they would tract in Mendon (an area with quite literally 4 wards for maybe a total population of 500 people).
 
I was willing to listen until after I confirmed the most insane doctrine I had heard that JWs believe.  If they had said, no we have modified this belief based on (literally whatever a direct prophecy, a dream, talking to a salamander) I probably would have given them a chance to talk and find out more.  The whole idea that of all the billions upon billions of people that have EVER lived only 144,000 go to heaven doesn't work for me.  I told them I had just gotten out of the mormon church and really just wasn't interested.  In my head I was saying "I just got out of one cult - so not ready to join another one, thanks but no thanks."
 
On the other hand the WERE unobtrusive, did not even TRY to come into my house, respected what I had to say, answered honestly and didn't press the subject when I said I wasn't interested - they just left.  That is a nice change of pace!  I am totally stoked to find out what religious people are like when you aren't looking at them through LDS blinders!  I don't think I will be able to have a deep faith in Christ like some of those I admire, but I get to look at religious people as strong, thoughtful, loving people instead of misguided and misled - this is a really kewl new perspective!!!!
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Posted: 27 April 2007 04:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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It must really suck to be ranked at 144,001 on God's list. If you had knocked on just one more door.....if you'd just showed up for Church that one day when you had the flu, instead of staying home sick......
 
I wonder if 144,001 will complain when the standings are announced. It's like when the NCAA announces the 72 teams for the basketball tournament, and #73 protests and complains, because they're convinced they were better than #72, and how'd you pick THOSE slugs over us???
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Posted: 27 April 2007 04:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
Reverend
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Wait just a second. I was told that the 144k people are going into heaven first to prepare it or some such thing.
 
'Zilla? Confirm with the boy-toy? 


   


Posted: 27 April 2007 04:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Dogzilla Joy
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Believe me, I avoid discussing JW doctrine with the boy-toy... it makes me want to smack him. 

But yes, that is confirmed. Only 144,000 get to go to whatever it is JW call "heaven." Here's the screwy part (as if that isn't weird enough): All of the 144,000 slots are filled. There is no way a new JW convert can hope to become one of the chosen few. But they don't tell you if you have a slot or not. So I guess they HOPE their name is on the list and somebody at 139,999 "disassociates" or apostasizes. I can't make sense of it.  Makes mormon doctrine look sensible.

I keep hoping there's a way to f**k the stupid outta him.

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Formerly known as “Dogzilla.”


   


Posted: 27 April 2007 04:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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If you can stand it: Link to JW Beliefs and Activities



I gotta to take a shower.

Oh, here's a list of weird shit they believe... this site is a little more tolerable as I think it's an "anti" site, by ex-JWs. (Our comrades in arms.) 

And this is a quote from a message board:

Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs and who are they?
The Watchtower is big money,being one of the top 40 New York City Corporations making nearly one billion dollars a year. That's just from one of their many corporations.
Unlike in the case of Christians who are persecuted in other lands for talking about Jesus Christ, Jehovah's Witnesses are largely persecuted for following the teachings begun during the second presidency of the Watchtower, when Joseph F. Rutherford took over in a corporate flap and began changing doctrines quickly in the Watchtower belief system. He claimed that angels directly conveyed truth to some of those in leadership. He coined the name Jehovah's Witnesses to make them stand out from being witnesses of Jesus, a typical evangelical expression (and a Biblical one).
Rutherford dumped holidays, birthdays and the 1874 date for the invisible return on Christ, and invented an earthly class of Witnesses, since only 144,000 can go to heaven in their teaching. The rest, meaning all 99.9% of Witnesses still alive, will live forever on a cleansed earth, under the rule of the Watchtower leaders in heaven, who will keep them in line by local elders known as 'Princes'.
If you have been witnessed to by Jehovah's Witnesses and you reject their message, you will likely die shortly at Armageddon with all the other non-Witnesses, since theirs is the only true religion, and (if they can live up to all the rules) they are the only ones to inhabit this new earth. If you believe Witnesses seem rigid now, any non-conformist during the future cleansed earth will be directly destroyed by Jehovah. Even now a Witness will be disfellowshipped for any one of many gaffs, such as smoking, taking a blood transfusion, or even voting.

... Or for sleeping with your postmormon girlfriend.

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Posted: 27 April 2007 05:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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dogzilla:
I keep hoping there's a way to f**k the stupid outta him. 

 
Once you've licked postMo cupcake, there's no going back!
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Posted: 27 April 2007 05:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Wow, i just had an encounter here at home with two of them a couple days ago.  They came walking up the walk and were going to open the gate until they saw 5 dogs wating to chew them up.  I wasn't sure who it was, but I had an idea.  Such nice ladies, I told them I wasn't interested, and they left it at that.  I did tell them they were going to have an uphill battle in this neighborhood, 90% active LDS but I give them credit for even coming around.
 
Usually if I know its JW coming up the walk I'll hide but I just thought I would warn them:)
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Posted: 27 April 2007 05:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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dogmom:
Wow, i just had an encounter here at home with two of them a couple days ago.  They came walking up the walk and were going to open the gate until they saw 5 dogs wating to chew them up.  I wasn't sure who it was, but I had an idea.  Such nice ladies, I told them I wasn't interested, and they left it at that.  I did tell them they were going to have an uphill battle in this neighborhood, 90% active LDS but I give them credit for even coming around.
 
Usually if I know its JW coming up the walk I'll hide but I just thought I would warn them:)

 
As for me, I keep a Ram's head with red LED lights for eyes, a black cape, and a dry-ice fog machine behind my front door. I see JWs coming up the walk, I put on the head and cape, kick on the dry ice machine,  play a Black Sabbath CD backwards, and answer the door with a "You here for today's human sacrifice?"
 
That usually does the trick.
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Posted: 27 April 2007 05:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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I just serve cupcakes.




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Posted: 27 April 2007 06:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Questions, always questions.

First, Crime Dog, can you make your head spin around?

Dogzilla, pre-licked ones?


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Posted: 27 April 2007 06:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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LuckyOne
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From my experiences with JW's in our area... be careful in actually letting them in, because some of them are EXTREMELY pushy!! Although some can be sweethearts too :) 

   


Posted: 27 April 2007 06:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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We actually haven't encounterd any for along time, so I was surprised to see them in this neighborhood.  Crime Dog, I  love it!  That would scare the holy bejeezus out of anyone!  Of course 5 barking dogs work, too!  Only we have to feed them and clean up after them!
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Posted: 27 April 2007 06:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Grape Nephi:
Questions, always questions.
 
First, Crime Dog, can you make your head spin around?
 
Dogzilla, pre-licked ones?

 
Absolutely, but I had to cut back on the green pea spew. Got dizzy spinning the head once and hurled in the wrong direction. The Fetching Mrs Crime Dog is still pissed at me for that one.
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Posted: 27 April 2007 06:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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Dogzilla Joy
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Grape Nephi:
Dogzilla, pre-licked ones?




Well, duh. Everybody knows you can't un-lick a cupcake.


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Posted: 27 April 2007 06:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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There's a thought. Just answer the door nekkid. They'll probably want outta there so fast, they won't take time to shake the dust from their shoes. Or is that just LDS missionaries that do that? 
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Posted: 27 April 2007 06:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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No, the LDS missionaries just sing a hymn to help them forget. They have to be careful which one though, 'come, come ye saints' tends to be counter productive.
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Posted: 27 April 2007 07:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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Dogzilla Joy
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Quote scriptures which sound dirty, but really aren't. 

Rev. 22:20: He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

(Don't worry about it, baby. It happens to everyone.)

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Posted: 27 April 2007 07:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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Dogzilla: Quote scriptures which sound dirty, but really aren’t. 

 
Gen 13:12 Abram dwelled in the land of Canaan, and Lot dwelled in the cities of the plain, and pitched his tent toward Sodom.
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Posted: 27 April 2007 07:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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Rutherford dumped holidays, birthdays and the 1874 date for the invisible return on Christ
[my bold]
 
Hey now, that is just way too good of a doctrine to drop!  You'd think if the JWs were done with it, the mormons would have picked it up. 
 
Imagine how much easier it would make apologists' lives.  They could say "Yes, JS prophecied that Christ would return within 50 years [or whatever he said].  And he did.  You just can't see him.  He's invisible.  But he's back.  PROVE HE'S NOT." 
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Posted: 27 April 2007 07:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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Even better, elder_nomo... they've predicted the invisible return of Christ several times. The boy-toy claims Jesus already returned in 1974.  Whenever they change their doctrine, (which, apparently, happens pretty frequently) they blame the members for not keeping up with the publications!



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Posted: 27 April 2007 08:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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Dogzilla Joy
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Actually, I just found something that's pretty cool. At http://www.jwfacts.com, there's a table comparing some basic mormon beliefs with JW beliefs, with the Seventh-Day Adventists and something called Christadelphians (never hearda them). What an eye-opener! No WONDER some of what boy-toy says sounds so familiar to me.


Anyway, I can't copy and paste the table... Follow the linky and scroll down.




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Posted: 27 April 2007 08:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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Quote scriptures which sound dirty, but really aren’t.  
 
Rev. 22:20: He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly.  Amen.  Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
 
(Don’t worry about it, baby. It happens to everyone.)

 
 
 
 
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Posted: 27 April 2007 08:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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Putting these together..... 
 

Rev. 22:20: He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. 

 

they’ve predicted the invisible return of Christ several times.

 
...looks like it's quantity over quality.
(he's fast but frequent.) 
 
I know, I'm going to hell for that.  But I was on my way anyway. 
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Posted: 27 April 2007 09:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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elder_nomo:
 
...looks like it's quantity over quality.
(he's fast but frequent.) 
 

 
That's so funny!
 
We are his sheep.  He is our shepherd.
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Posted: 27 April 2007 09:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
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dogzilla:
Actually, I just found something that's pretty cool. At http://www.jwfacts.com, there's a table comparing some basic mormon beliefs with JW beliefs, with the Seventh-Day Adventists and something called Christadelphians (never hearda them). What an eye-opener! No WONDER some of what boy-toy says sounds so familiar to me.
 
Anyway, I can't copy and paste the table... Follow the linky and scroll down.

 
The early and mid 19th century is sometimes referred to as the "period of ferment" in American history. Complete independence, breaking the ties with Mother England, brought with it an era that provided a fertile environment for the emergence of new religions and movements, or the expansion of existing ones. Mormonism, Shakerism, JW's, Transcendentalism, Christadelphianism, Seventh Day Adventism, and others all emerged or expanded in the US during this period. 
 
This knowledge (gleaned from a college class on "Jacksonian Era Democracy") is what first twigged me that there was nothing special about a bizarre claim to have communed with God and been told to start a church in the 19th Century. It was as common then as a new business start up is now. But more profitable, obviously. Anyway, it's what started my ears and eyes to opening, and the rest, as they say, is history.
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Posted: 27 April 2007 11:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
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Brutus Jack:
elder_nomo:
 
...looks like it's quantity over quality.
(he's fast but frequent.) 
 

 
That's so funny!
 
We are his sheep.  He is our shepherd.

 
K...  That one hit something!  I was pretty sure beasitality was discourgaged!

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Posted: 27 April 2007 11:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]   

   
 
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dogzilla:
Actually, I just found something that's pretty cool. At http://www.jwfacts.com, there's a table comparing some basic mormon beliefs with JW beliefs, with the Seventh-Day Adventists and something called Christadelphians (never hearda them). What an eye-opener! No WONDER some of what boy-toy says sounds so familiar to me.
Anyway, I can't copy and paste the table... Follow the linky and scroll down. 
 
 
 


 
What is the real difference, if any, between shunning and excommunication or disfellowship?
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Posted: 28 April 2007 12:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]   

   
 
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duryen:
 
 What is the real difference, if any, between shunning and excommunication or disfellowship?

 
Oh! I know this one!  Shunning is technically discouraged and basically happens among members of a ward when they see someone as "below" them or as a "sinner."  Then excommunication and disfellowship are different as well.
 
Excommunication is when it's all over, your name is off the records, your temple "blessings" are revoked, etc. 
 
Disfellowship however, you still "get" to pay your tithing, even though you can't attend the temple. Also, callings, and your "privlege" of praying or speaking at a public meeting is revoked.
 
Is that what you wanted to know? Does it even really make sense? 
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Posted: 30 April 2007 01:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]   

   
 
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Sakerra, I think that question was directed toward the JW manner of handling things. (Your answer was correct for how mormons distinguish between the two.) I believe shunning is what the general membership does to you when whatever you've done is made public. Disfellowship and excommunication are mormon terms. The JW term for the administrative action that the JW takes against someone who leaves their faith is "disassociation." 
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Posted: 30 April 2007 03:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]   

   
 
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The 144K doctrine isn't all that abnormal when you take a moment to consider it from their point of view. The earth will return to its paradisaical glory and all believers will enjoy it in peace and harmony. The 144K are those which will have responsibility to aid Jehovah in ruling the earth. In their minds, the goal is to enjoy paradise in peace.
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Posted: 30 April 2007 03:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]   

   
 
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Right, Oracle, but the creepy and disturbing part of that is the "righteous" JWs who survive Armageddon, but aren't part of the 144K, are considered the "slave" class. When boytoy presented this to me, this is sort of how that conversation went:

Dogzilla: "Erm, do I have that right? I'm supposed to remain on this earth for eternity, multiplying and replenishing the earth again... as a JW slave?" (This seems even worse to me than the mormon plan of salvation. Yet, this was posed to me like it's some sort of enticing promise. I'm apparently supposed to hope I get to breed over and over. Even puppy mills put bitches down after they've been overbred too many times.)

BoyToy: "But you get eternal life!"

DZ: "But I have to spend it pregnant? F**k that. How is that a promise? I can't think of any worse punishment than forcing me to breed for eternity. I'd rather be dead and have my soul cease to exist." (Which is pretty much what I expect to happen anyway, seeing as how I don't believe in any form of afterlife or in Armageddon.) "Some man thought this crap up, right? Because no woman god would ever 'promise' that you get to breed for eternity as a 'reward'." (Seriously. I've already chosen to not breed in this life. Not all of us feel compelled to breed. We might not all consider it desirable. If I've already said I'd rather gnaw my own foot off than make babies, then what would make anyone think I'd be interested in makin' them post-apocalypse?)

BT: "But it's not a punishment; it's a blessing."

DZ: "Okay, then, baby, you need to find yourself another breeder, 'cause homey don't play dat."

I think any religion that includes some form of slavery in the afterlife or post-apocalypse just shouldn't exist. There is nothing about slavery that suggests spiritual, emotional, or intellectual enlightenment at all. No god I could believe in would require one group of his creation to rule over another group in servitude. That simply makey no sense.
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Posted: 30 April 2007 05:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]   

   
 
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ermmm...doesn't sound too far off from what the conversation would have gone with any JW. The terminology isn't the norm though. LOL!
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Posted: 06 May 2007 01:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]   

   
 
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For those newbies who haven't been introduced to Betty Butterfield, here's what she has to say about the Jehovah's Witnesses:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR-IB2YVIaI


(You might want to check out her bit on Mormons.  What a riot!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ulRnhZnkeM&mode=related&search=


   


Posted: 06 May 2007 05:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]   

   
 
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 OTFLMAO...  Did you notice, "I am a Child of God" was playing in the background of the JW one, and "Oh How Lovely Was the Morning" in the Mormon one.  I'll have to do more research to see if there is a Primary Song Book conspiracy.
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Posted: 06 May 2007 11:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]   

   
 
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bow_your_head&say_no: OTFLMAO...  Did you notice, "I am a Child of God" was playing in the background of the JW one, and "Oh How Lovely Was the Morning" in the Mormon one.  I'll have to do more research to see if there is a Primary Song Book conspiracy.

There are Mormon tunes playing in several of "her" videos, which makes me wonder if there might be some Mormon past to Betty.  This is a good one too:
http://www.archive.org/details/Betty_Butterfield_mormon_wife_39


   


            
 
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Do Mormons Ever Become Jehovah’s Witnesses and Vice Versa? (redux)  
Posted: 08 March 2007 05:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Crime Dog
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I posted this earlier, but it seems to not be working. It just blanked out my screen when I submitted it.
 
Anyway, I'm curious. The two faiths share some things in common: Known for missionary work, some odd doctrine and beliefs, and both are thought of as cults by pretty much the rest of the world. There's even an ex JW website
 
You have to know that the JW missionaries come across LDS folks now and then, and vice-versa. I'm just wondering if they ever manage to convert one another.
 
We just discovered a JW church (Hall? Whatever?) down the street, so unobtrusive we didn't even know it was there, though we have lived here ten years. It's quite the contrast to the numerous LDS Wards around here, with their ubiquitous white steeples jutting out of every subdivision. 
 
Just wondering....
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Posted: 08 March 2007 05:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Good Lord, I hope not.


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Posted: 08 March 2007 06:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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dogzilla:
Good Lord, I hope not.
 
 

 
Are we feeling "vulnerable?"    Because if you are, I can send someone over to slap some sense into you....
 
 ...it's what friends do for friends.
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Posted: 08 March 2007 06:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Dogzilla Joy
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peter_mary:
dogzilla:
Good Lord, I hope not.




Are we feeling "vulnerable?"    Because if you are, I can send someone over to slap some sense into you....

 ...it's what friends do for friends.


LOL

Um, no. I was thinking about the other way around. What if he traded JW for The Other Cult? AIIIIGGGGHHHHH!!!!

:: head explodes ::

Fortunately, I've explained enough about mormonism to him (we talked about polygamy the other day) that he pretty much sees this cult for what it is. Why he can't see his own cult for what it is... well, you know, cognitive dissonance. 
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Posted: 08 March 2007 06:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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dogzilla:
Um, no. I was thinking about the other way around. What if he traded JW for The Other Cult? AIIIIGGGGHHHHH!!!!
 
:: head explodes ::
 
Fortunately, I've explained enough about mormonism to him (we talked about polygamy the other day) that he pretty much sees this cult for what it is. Why he can't see his own cult for what it is... well, you know, cognitive dissonance.  

 
Obviously, being a relative newcomer, I'm missing something here.....
 
Is there a get-that-blood-transfusion-and-U.S.-flag-away-from-me JW in the woodpile out there?
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Posted: 08 March 2007 07:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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I'm dating a Kool-Aid drinker. I posted a thread about this a few months ago, but you may have missed it.


:: hangs head in shame :: 
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Posted: 08 March 2007 08:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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My aunt converted from moism to  JWism.  She is still quite devout these 30+ years later. All her children are JW and they tried to convert us for awhile and then gave it a rest.  She is on  the younger end of 12 siblings. I wonder if it was her way of standing out from the crowd.  I also think a boy was involved.  None of the other siblings converted though.


   


Posted: 08 March 2007 09:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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megawatts:
My aunt converted from moism to  JWism.  She is still quite devout these 30+ years later. All her children are JW and they tried to convert us for awhile and then gave it a rest.  She is on  the younger end of 12 siblings. I wonder if it was her way of standing out from the crowd.  I also think a boy was involved.  None of the other siblings converted though.

How does anyone convert to a religeon that doesn't celebrate birthdays or Christmas?
 
Oh, wait...how does anyone convert to a religeon that practices secret handshakes and requires its adherents to wear sacred (ugly) underwear? 
 
Sigh...how soon we forget...
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Posted: 08 March 2007 09:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Hey, The Crime Dog is actually all for being a JW. I'm in, baby. So long as they let me eat and drink whatever and however much of it I want. Oh, and leave me alone when I don't show up on Sundays (Or is it Saturdays with those people?). Plus, I really don't want anybody coming around and bugging me when I'm trying to have a cold brew out by the pool. That's not to say you can't come around. Just bring some beer when you do. Domestic is fine, so long as it's cold. A single-malt Scotch is even better.
 
And I still have to do birthdays, holidays, and all that. That's a deal breaker. Oh, wait....there's that transfusion thing.....if my life is in danger, and I need a transfusion, do not stand between me and the blood bank unless you're prepared to make an impromptu donation of your own. And tithing is out. I'm leaving on a cruise next week, and have a Key West trip planned for the Fall, so I'm going to need every penny.
 
Hold on - you guys don't dunk, do you? I'm not up for some wingnut holding my head underwater. You want to fling some water at me out of a salt shaker or something, that's fine.
 
That should about seal the deal. Where do I sign up? You can move a tick from the Mormon side of the scoreboard over to the JW side. Do I get to meet the Jackson 5 now?
 
P.S. No goofball clothing allowed - that goes for neckties and magic drawers.
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Posted: 08 March 2007 09:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Just found this on that ex-JW site. Made me LOL:

Two missionaries of the Church of Latter-Day Saints (sic) were walking down the street when they ran into two Jehovah's Witnesses coming directly at them from the opposite direction. The elders stopped, and one of the Jehovah's Witnesses said, "We don't move for false witnesses." One of the Mormons said, "We do," and they went around them.

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Posted: 08 March 2007 10:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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dogzilla:
Just found this on that ex-JW site. Made me LOL:
 
Two missionaries of the Church of Latter-Day Saints (sic) were walking down the street when they ran into two Jehovah's Witnesses coming directly at them from the opposite direction. The elders stopped, and one of the Jehovah's Witnesses said, "We don't move for false witnesses." One of the Mormons said, "We do," and they went around them.

 
Pots and kettles! Pots and kettles!
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Posted: 08 March 2007 11:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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While deep down inside I still feel like "well thank god I wasn't in THAT religion", I similarly (or not-so-deeply?) recognize that it's just something I use to feel better about myself.
 
 
And the JWs view the Mormons EXACTLY the same way. :) 


   


Posted: 09 March 2007 02:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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This keeps making me think of my missionary days in France.  We were kind of shocked (and embarrassed) to find that people considered the mormons and the JW's to be similar cults, to the point where sometimes they would even mix us up.  Oh, mon Dieu!  
 
Some of my fellow mishies avoided talking to JW's because they said you couldn't get anywhere with them - they had closed minds and wouldn't listen.  
[yep, Crime Dog, "pots and kettles" all the way!]
 
But a few looked forward to having real knock-down drag-out "bible bashes," I guess to display their scriptural testosterone.  OK, I admit I thought it sounded kinda cool - we would OF COURSE win, since we were armed with "THE TRUTH".  I can't recall any specific bible bashes, but I sort of remember being disappointed that our victories were not as clear cut as I expected (although I still "knew" that we had "won"... you know, because of the having THE TRUTH thing and all  ).  Sheesh. 
 
 
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Posted: 09 March 2007 04:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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CULT JUMPING STORY

 I have a cousin whose father left the LDS church and joined the FLDS church. After living there several years he decided he had enough and decided to leave, however his wife had bought into it. (Can’t figure that one out) Not to long afterwards he passed away and his wife was reassigned to another man. My cousin fell in love with one of his sisters from another poly-mom. Their family was broken up by the short creek raid however afterward they were able to get back together and married and ended up having a large family. My cousin did not embrace polygamy and ended up becoming an FLDS apostate. He was exed and told to remove his home from UEP property. He fought the FLDS church for a number of years in the courts and finally received barely enough money to purchase a trailer and small piece of land in a nearby community. He was fellowshipped by the LDS church and ended up joining and is still active. In sharing with him that I was an apostate he told me he knows there are serious problems with the LDS church also but because of all of the years of being shunned he and his wife craved a social connection. The LDS church provided this for them. 

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Is there really any “getting better” for some people?
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Do Mormons Ever Become Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Vice versa?  
Posted: 08 March 2007 05:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Crime Dog
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My wife and I were out riding our bikes around a couple nights ago, when we came across a Jehovah's Witness church (hall, whatever) just down the road. It is so low-key, we had no idea it was even there, though we have lived here over ten years now.
 
I know exactly diddley-squat about them. If a pollster called me to ask me my first impression of the JWs, it would be that they don't fly flags or really celebrate anything, but they knock on my door every so often. Then there's the blood-transfusion thing. Outside of that: Bupkis.
 
Anyway, we were wondering: Has anyone ever left the JWs to become a Mormon, or vice-versa? Do they have a post JW site with expatriates/apostates/whatever? So I looked around, and sure enough, they do.
 
The Internet has been a great tool in helping people open their eyes and escape these oppressive religious groups, thank goodness. But I still don't know about going from JW to Mormon, or Mormon to JW. They seem to hold some things in common -  known for doing missionary work, bringing in new converts, some weird doctrines, they both claim to be the only true religion on the planet, and they both have been labeled "cults" by pretty much the rest of the world......inquiring minds want to know.
 
 
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Is there really any “getting better” for some people?
by josephs myth
Masterbating
by TheThomas
Broad daylight is the best antiseptic
by Strong Free & Thankful
How do I develop a lifestyle out of Mormonism?
by Nephi
The perfect excuse for polyandry
by Tessa
Downtown Bus Robber Takes A Ride To The Floor
by Elder OldDog
Will Utah allow 'married gays' to marry opposite sex in the State also?
by Nephi
Name Finally Removed
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Religious Trauma Syndrome
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INTRODUCE YOURSELVES - TAG YOU'RE IT!
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President Uchtdorf: Mistakes (#3) by Leaders and Members.
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I'm returning and reporting after being off this site for a while.
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Don't hold your breath waiting for LDS Inc to apologize for its obvious racism.
by Celestial Wedgie
Was Michael Jackson Mormon????
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Three questions or more
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Advice for getting someone to leave Mormonism
by how is this my life
Race and the Priesthood: Back to the Future edition
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Temple Recommend Question Answered for LDS Church
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Duck Dynasty
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New Essay = Polygamy
by Swearing Elder 

  
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We’re still here...
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Posted: 02 January 2009 10:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Besides the JW and LDS does anyone know of any other "religious" institution which sends out missionaries to enlighten and convert the rest of us?
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Posted: 02 January 2009 10:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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I've had door-to-door Seventh-Day Adventists come by before. 
I know that the Scientologists set up booths at fairs and such to do free happiness evaluations or something along those lines using Dianetics, which is just a hook and line to get new members.  They also have front organizations which at first appear to be unrelated to Scientology in any way.
The Moonies also have many front organizations to do the same thing.
I think one of the worst example of this was when the not-for-profit group "Cult Watch" (which was originally set up to help protect people from cults) was sued by the Scientologists.  The legal fees brought Cult Watch to bankruptcy and the Scientologists bought the organization for a song.  Now it is a front for Scientology. 
 
Talk about a wolf in sheep's clothing.  Call the Cult Watch hotline to get help for yourself or a loved one who is in a cult and who are you talking to?  A recruiter for a cult.
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Posted: 03 January 2009 12:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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I believe Methodists do, although I am not 100% sure. I was just researching Methodists online. How ironic.  

   


Posted: 03 January 2009 01:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Erin:
I believe Methodists do, although I am not 100% sure. I was just researching Methodists online. How ironic. 
 
 Pretty sure they don't.
 
 
edited to clarify:  Methodists do have a missionary program, but it's not the door to door thing.  It's mostly a volunteer program where they send volunteers to impoverished areas and they do projects to help those in need.  Very little about it (if any of it) is actually about converting anyone.
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Posted: 03 January 2009 01:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Lots of churches have "missions" where they do group charity works, go to other countries to spread the message, and help out in the community. The latest non-denominational church I attended has a mission ministry, as well as several Presbyterian, Baptist, and Penetecostal churches in the city i live in. As far as strict 2 year, door to door, no contact with family at all missionaries, I don't know. 

   


Posted: 03 January 2009 06:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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JazzDaddy-o
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Peach:
Erin:
I believe Methodists do, although I am not 100% sure. I was just researching Methodists online. How ironic. 
 
 Pretty sure they don't.
 
 
edited to clarify:  Methodists do have a missionary program, but it's not the door to door thing.  It's mostly a volunteer program where they send volunteers to impoverished areas and they do projects to help those in need.  Very little about it (if any of it) is actually about converting anyone.
 
 Presbyterians have a similar missionary program.  I think poor people in impoverished areas who have never learned about Jesus learn a helluva lot more about what his teachings are about by seeing this Protestant style of missionary work than by anything the Mormons, JW's or any other cult have to offer.  IMO.
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Posted: 03 January 2009 07:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Evangelical Christians have missionaries, but most of them do service-oriented work along with going out to get converts only.
 
I watched a documentary the other night about a group of teenagers who volunteered to go to Africa as well as other locations but they first had to attend "The Lord's Bootcamp."  The indoctrination was obvious to me after reading Steve Hassan's book "Combatting Cult Mind Control."  Please don't think that I believe ALL religious people are members of cults, I just recognized the signs he pointed out.  They had to do things like run around and put the books of the bible in the correct order (the chapters were written on heavy wooden crates and they had to run with them.  By the time they were finished they were all exhausted).  The groups that didn't finish the  task in time, or not in the correct order, had to run an obstacle course.  I couldn't believe it.
 
They also showed how this particular church set up booths at State/County fairs and asked people to do surveys.  People would be approached by the teen missionaries and asked questions about believing that Jesus died for our sins, and if they wanted to go to Heaven.
 
They even got into it with a lady and her daughter that belonged to the Mormon church.  The teenage girl doing the survey for them had no idea what Mormons believed and ended up challenging the mother a little too much and there was a small verbal altercation.  It was interesting to watch.
 
I am not sure if it's an evangical christian thing or just something this particular church did... 
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Is there really any “getting better” for some people?
by josephs myth
Masterbating
by TheThomas
Broad daylight is the best antiseptic
by Strong Free & Thankful
How do I develop a lifestyle out of Mormonism?
by Nephi
The perfect excuse for polyandry
by Tessa
Downtown Bus Robber Takes A Ride To The Floor
by Elder OldDog
Will Utah allow 'married gays' to marry opposite sex in the State also?
by Nephi
Name Finally Removed
by Matter Unorganized
Religious Trauma Syndrome
by josephs myth
INTRODUCE YOURSELVES - TAG YOU'RE IT!
by haylee
President Uchtdorf: Mistakes (#3) by Leaders and Members.
by josephs myth
I'm returning and reporting after being off this site for a while.
by Kori
Don't hold your breath waiting for LDS Inc to apologize for its obvious racism.
by Celestial Wedgie
Was Michael Jackson Mormon????
by Dogzilla Joy
Three questions or more
by Mountainhippie
Advice for getting someone to leave Mormonism
by how is this my life
Race and the Priesthood: Back to the Future edition
by Tessa
Temple Recommend Question Answered for LDS Church
by Tessa
Duck Dynasty
by Tessa
New Essay = Polygamy
by Swearing Elder 

  
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/13091/