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OCTOBER CONFERENCE
"Past, Present, and Possibilities"
Oct. 18-20, 2013










 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



Salt Lake Events the week before christmas
[Salt Lake City Po...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (12/1)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
December 1st- Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
We’re still here...
[East Tennessee Po...] 
Utah County CALM meetup for November
[Calm of Utah Coun...] 
Joseph's Changing Myth with Grant Palmer -- Nov 6 -- 7pm -- SLC Library
[Salt Lake City Po...] 
November Meet Up
[Idaho Falls Post-...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (11/3)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
November 3rd- Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture series
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
October Meet-up
[Denver Post-Mormo...] 
October Meeting
[Idaho Falls Post-...] 
San Diego lunch this Sunday @ 1:30
[San Diego Post-Mo...] 


Book of Mormon Tories
by Tom Donofrio 
Book of Mormon Tories
by Nogginus Skepticalus 
Native American DNA
by GTM 
Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Reuben

Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Virginia Steve

CALM meet up for June
4bagel

Revised NW Women's Retreat Announcement
lunaverse

Austin Fall Party
lightrider702

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
by Timo 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by ExMoNemo 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Mikki B 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Mikki B

Resignation Letter to My Family
Waveoftruth

Resignation Letter to My Family
In search of Truth

Carolina PostMo Night: “The Master
Swearing Elder

Washington D.C. Post-Mormon Lunch - August 28
freckles

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Financial Report for 2011 to Date
by Jeff Ricks 
Resignation Letter to My Family
pennw

Financial Report for 2011 to Date
by Poor Thumper 
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
by Poor Thumper 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Poor Thumper

SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (6/3)
exmoinaz

SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (6/3)
peter_gunz

Earth Day Concert Get Together!
Swearing Elder


            

Home Our Community
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 Calm of N. Davis County and Weber County Post-Mormons
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Pants On LDS Women Dec.15 2013  
Posted: 24 November 2013 07:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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Forget the total Mormon boob job and just grab your pants.
 
http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/d0b30270af9f4c3890c9f985a34d033c/UT--Mormon-Women-Pants
 
"The first "Wear Pants to Church Day" was held in December 2012 to show solidarity for women's equality.

Organizer Nancy Ross says the goal of this year's event is to encourage The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to continue to be more progressive and inclusive.
They are also inviting men and women to wear purple on Dec. 15."
 Signature
-Nothing beats a failure like a try 
_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 24 November 2013 12:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Iron Chancellor
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Last year, since the pants thing was the Sunday before Xmas, I was going to attend church.  I was going to wear one of my kilts just for the irony of it.  My wife however, said something that pissed me off so I didn't go. If I go to church this year it will be on the 22nd, the Sunday before Xmas, and yes, I will wear one of my kilts.
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After coming into contact with a religious man I always feel I must wash my hands.
Friedrich Nietzsche


   


Posted: 24 November 2013 01:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Ruthie
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The last time I went to church as a teen was after I refused to wear a dress to church. I had my own car, my parents both went to church early to fulfill their callings. I showed up to church that last sunday dressed in dress pants. I looked good and was "dressed up".  My father saw me and I swear his face turned so red. He insisted I leave to change and return "appropriatly dressed in a dress". I told him that if I left I wasn't coming back. He was still angry but he let the topic drop. However later as I sat in sunday school (I was a lurel at that point) I just couldn't stand the obsurdity of it all. So I got up and I left. That's probably the last time I was really a TBM. I wish my experience with the church had ended there. However I came back years later as an adult, for a period of 3 years or so where I learned just how truly obserd the church was. 
 
My father back then, and to this day probably, would prefer a woman wear a ratty old dress to church then wear the finest dress pant outfit.  BAER. 


   


Posted: 24 November 2013 03:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Timber
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Ruthie:
The last time I went to church as a teen was after I refused to wear a dress to church. I had my own car, my parents both went to church early to fulfill their callings. I showed up to church that last sunday dressed in dress pants. I looked good and was "dressed up".  My father saw me and I swear his face turned so red. He insisted I leave to change and return "appropriatly dressed in a dress". I told him that if I left I wasn't coming back. He was still angry but he let the topic drop. However later as I sat in sunday school (I was a lurel at that point) I just couldn't stand the obsurdity of it all. So I got up and I left. That's probably the last time I was really a TBM. I wish my experience with the church had ended there. However I came back years later as an adult, for a period of 3 years or so where I learned just how truly obserd the church was. 
 
My father back then, and to this day probably, would prefer a woman wear a ratty old dress to church then wear the finest dress pant outfit.  BAER. 
 
Dang, Ruthie! That represents so much--mostly a whole lot of fear that eclipsed love. What a traumatic experience. This is exactly why Mormons need a "wear pants to church" day. Mormons need to get over themselves. Their fear of change prevents them from accepting and loving.


   


Posted: 24 November 2013 07:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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nightbird
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Iron Chancellor:
Last year, since the pants thing was the Sunday before Xmas, I was going to attend church.  I was going to wear one of my kilts just for the irony of it.  My wife however, said something that pissed me off so I didn't go. If I go to church this year it will be on the 22nd, the Sunday before Xmas, and yes, I will wear one of my kilts.
 
 If you wear a kilt, your wife will need to carry a shotgun. Kilts are drop dead sexy!


   


Posted: 24 November 2013 09:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Kilts going commando....really sexy.
 Signature
”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 24 November 2013 10:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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Greenlandzone:
Thanks. I was searching the same information since many months. Thanks for your hard work.

SEO Company
Textile Designing Software
Erectile Dysfunction
Seforim
loadxtreme
SEO Freelancer

 
 I especially liked the "bres enhancement cream" !!
 
I think a spammer got by the Guardian Angels! 


   


Posted: 25 November 2013 06:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
Nephi
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They would get more attention if they wore nice tops, shoes and whatnot but no pants, and nothing but underwear or pantyhose from the waist to their shoes.
 Signature
Once you’ve tasted the grapes of wrath, you’ll never be satisfied with bananas.
No religion, no problems. Know religion, Know problems.


   


Posted: 29 November 2013 03:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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Coincidence Or Answer To Prayer, No Reason Givenhttp://www.standard.net/stories/2013/11/29/lds-church-hold-general-women-s-meetings-twice-year
 
 Signature
-Nothing beats a failure like a try 
_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 17 December 2013 08:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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Stupid Mormon leadership acts as if nothing at all is going on, well maybe they tried.
 
US Mormon feminists don pants to promote LDS Church equality
 
http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2013/12/17/u-s-mormon-feminists-don-pants-to-promote-lds-church-equality/
 
About time somebody put em on.
 
 Signature
-Nothing beats a failure like a try 
_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 17 December 2013 08:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Kori
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If somebody started a "Wear Yoga pants and a thong to church day" I'd show up. 
 
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Delusion: Maintaining strong belief in something, despite superior evidence to the contrary.”
“As long as they believe absurdities, they’ll commit atrocities.” Voltaire
“I cause cognitive dissonance, which will either drive them insane, or drive them sane. I hope for the latter, which is all I can do.”  Ayan Hirsi Ali
on what she does to help abuse victims, escape the prison of faith which she escaped, barely


   


Posted: 17 December 2013 08:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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Kori:
If somebody started a "Wear Yoga pants and a thong to church day" I'd show up. 
 
 
My God is that Miley now, from a different angle?  Don't tell me it's Billy Ray. (2:18)
 
 
 Signature
-Nothing beats a failure like a try 
_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 17 December 2013 09:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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True to the Truth
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As DW and I were driving by a church on Sunday (on our way to grocery shopping ), we say a couple cross the street in front of us - her in her pants, him in his purple shirt.  Right here in so-very-righteous Utah County!
 
tttt


   


            
 
 ‹‹ What? Naked mormon protraits?        E-mail from a TBM Friend - holy crap ››  
 
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Is there really any “getting better” for some people?
by josephs myth
Masterbating
by TheThomas
Broad daylight is the best antiseptic
by Strong Free & Thankful
How do I develop a lifestyle out of Mormonism?
by Nephi
The perfect excuse for polyandry
by Tessa
Downtown Bus Robber Takes A Ride To The Floor
by Elder OldDog
Will Utah allow 'married gays' to marry opposite sex in the State also?
by Nephi
Name Finally Removed
by Matter Unorganized
Religious Trauma Syndrome
by josephs myth
INTRODUCE YOURSELVES - TAG YOU'RE IT!
by haylee
President Uchtdorf: Mistakes (#3) by Leaders and Members.
by josephs myth
I'm returning and reporting after being off this site for a while.
by Kori
Don't hold your breath waiting for LDS Inc to apologize for its obvious racism.
by Celestial Wedgie
Was Michael Jackson Mormon????
by Dogzilla Joy
Three questions or more
by Mountainhippie
Advice for getting someone to leave Mormonism
by how is this my life
Race and the Priesthood: Back to the Future edition
by Tessa
Temple Recommend Question Answered for LDS Church
by Tessa
Duck Dynasty
by Tessa
New Essay = Polygamy
by Swearing Elder 

   http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/38218/








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OCTOBER CONFERENCE
"Past, Present, and Possibilities"
Oct. 18-20, 2013










 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



Salt Lake Events the week before christmas
[Salt Lake City Po...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (12/1)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
December 1st- Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
We’re still here...
[East Tennessee Po...] 
Utah County CALM meetup for November
[Calm of Utah Coun...] 
Joseph's Changing Myth with Grant Palmer -- Nov 6 -- 7pm -- SLC Library
[Salt Lake City Po...] 
November Meet Up
[Idaho Falls Post-...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (11/3)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
November 3rd- Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture series
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
October Meet-up
[Denver Post-Mormo...] 
October Meeting
[Idaho Falls Post-...] 
San Diego lunch this Sunday @ 1:30
[San Diego Post-Mo...] 


Book of Mormon Tories
by Tom Donofrio 
Book of Mormon Tories
by Nogginus Skepticalus 
Native American DNA
by GTM 
Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Reuben

Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Virginia Steve

CALM meet up for June
4bagel

Revised NW Women's Retreat Announcement
lunaverse

Austin Fall Party
lightrider702

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
by Timo 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by ExMoNemo 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Mikki B 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Mikki B

Resignation Letter to My Family
Waveoftruth

Resignation Letter to My Family
In search of Truth

Carolina PostMo Night: “The Master
Swearing Elder

Washington D.C. Post-Mormon Lunch - August 28
freckles

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Financial Report for 2011 to Date
by Jeff Ricks 
Resignation Letter to My Family
pennw

Financial Report for 2011 to Date
by Poor Thumper 
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
by Poor Thumper 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Poor Thumper

SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (6/3)
exmoinaz

SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (6/3)
peter_gunz

Earth Day Concert Get Together!
Swearing Elder


            

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Forum Home  >  Member Forums  >  The Community Forum  >  Thread 
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LDS Church alters Christmas devotional tradition  
Posted: 09 December 2013 11:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
bjohn
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  http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865591807/LDS-Church-alters-Christmas-devotional-tradition.html
 
Monson getting too old to give talks? Only a few brief minutes in General Conference seems to be what he's doing lately. If it's true he has dimentia, it's harder to be with it at night than say a Saturday or Sunday morning. Is the Church trying to distant itself from "what the prophet says, goes?" So "other people get a chance to talk" but if they mess up, they "aren't the prophet? Or trying to resurrect a new image with some younger faces?
 
Just some of my thoughts. Not sure what to think. It's been the same format since the 70's.


   


Posted: 09 December 2013 11:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Celestial Wedgie
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[Hanging my head in shame]  I attended.  Monson spoke; you would not have been able to distinguish this from one of his General Conference talks.  A woman from the General Primary spoke about a cub scout learning about Jesus.  Russell M.  Nelson's talk was intriguing to me because there was video woven into it.  I wondered if maybe they were hoping to find a way to make the format a little more enjoyable and lively.  One other man talked, if I recall, and absolutely nothing about it stayed with me: completely forgettable.
 
Most remarkable to me was that they talked about Jesus, only barely making mention of Joseph Smith.  That was such a pleasant switch.
 
As always the music was wonderful.  I just love Christmas music, especially by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.  That part of my Mormon heritage seems to be mine to keep.


   


Posted: 09 December 2013 11:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
bjohn
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I didn't even check to see who spoke. Looks like he did. I still like some MoTab music. I did go to the Christmas special they did one year with Sissel (sp?). She has an amazing voice. I've been reading on facebook from TBM's they wonder why it's changed, like the old format, but they will support it. Seems to be the general opinion. 

   


Posted: 09 December 2013 03:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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That Will Do
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I have been out of the Christmas Devotional loop for a while. What changes were made? 

   


Posted: 09 December 2013 03:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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That Will Do
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That Will Do:
I have been out of the Christmas Devotional loop for a while. What changes were made?
 
 Oops! I should have read the artcile first before posting. 


   


Posted: 09 December 2013 04:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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baneberry
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RMN seemed a little creepy. 
 
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There are many other forms of lying. When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.
http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-31-honesty?lang=eng


   


Posted: 09 December 2013 05:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Silverwings
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But... isn't god the same yesterday, today and forever?!
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Oh, there isn’t one thing left you could say
I’m sorry it’s too late
Avril Lavigne - Let Me Go Lyrics


   


Posted: 09 December 2013 08:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
Celestial Wedgie
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Silverwings:
But... isn't god the same yesterday, today and forever?!
 
Yes, but he's even the same more now that we're in the last days. At least, I think that's the message.


   


            
 
 ‹‹ “Life is pain. Anyone who says differently is selling something.”        Totally off topic - Wyoming time lapse ››  
 
Forum Home  >  Member Forums  >  The Community Forum  >  Thread

ExpressionEngine Discussion Forum - Version 2.1.2


   

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ChooseTheRed
Kori
Logged in: 2
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Logged in anonymous: 0



(Joined in last 24 hours)  haylee
Total members: 9232 


Is there really any “getting better” for some people?
by josephs myth
Masterbating
by TheThomas
Broad daylight is the best antiseptic
by Strong Free & Thankful
How do I develop a lifestyle out of Mormonism?
by Nephi
The perfect excuse for polyandry
by Tessa
Downtown Bus Robber Takes A Ride To The Floor
by Elder OldDog
Will Utah allow 'married gays' to marry opposite sex in the State also?
by Nephi
Name Finally Removed
by Matter Unorganized
Religious Trauma Syndrome
by josephs myth
INTRODUCE YOURSELVES - TAG YOU'RE IT!
by haylee
President Uchtdorf: Mistakes (#3) by Leaders and Members.
by josephs myth
I'm returning and reporting after being off this site for a while.
by Kori
Don't hold your breath waiting for LDS Inc to apologize for its obvious racism.
by Celestial Wedgie
Was Michael Jackson Mormon????
by Dogzilla Joy
Three questions or more
by Mountainhippie
Advice for getting someone to leave Mormonism
by how is this my life
Race and the Priesthood: Back to the Future edition
by Tessa
Temple Recommend Question Answered for LDS Church
by Tessa
Duck Dynasty
by Tessa
New Essay = Polygamy
by Swearing Elder 

   http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/38319/

















This page is loading.
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OCTOBER CONFERENCE
"Past, Present, and Possibilities"
Oct. 18-20, 2013










 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



Salt Lake Events the week before christmas
[Salt Lake City Po...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (12/1)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
December 1st- Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
We’re still here...
[East Tennessee Po...] 
Utah County CALM meetup for November
[Calm of Utah Coun...] 
Joseph's Changing Myth with Grant Palmer -- Nov 6 -- 7pm -- SLC Library
[Salt Lake City Po...] 
November Meet Up
[Idaho Falls Post-...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (11/3)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
November 3rd- Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture series
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
October Meet-up
[Denver Post-Mormo...] 
October Meeting
[Idaho Falls Post-...] 
San Diego lunch this Sunday @ 1:30
[San Diego Post-Mo...] 


Book of Mormon Tories
by Tom Donofrio 
Book of Mormon Tories
by Nogginus Skepticalus 
Native American DNA
by GTM 
Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Reuben

Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Virginia Steve

CALM meet up for June
4bagel

Revised NW Women's Retreat Announcement
lunaverse

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What percentage of Mormons do you think would remain Mormon if they knew?  
Posted: 06 December 2013 05:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Kori
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the full extent of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young's polyandry and how it completely vioated "The Law of the Priesthood"?
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Delusion: Maintaining strong belief in something, despite superior evidence to the contrary.”
“As long as they believe absurdities, they’ll commit atrocities.” Voltaire
“I cause cognitive dissonance, which will either drive them insane, or drive them sane. I hope for the latter, which is all I can do.”  Ayan Hirsi Ali
on what she does to help abuse victims, escape the prison of faith which she escaped, barely


   


Posted: 06 December 2013 05:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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The few I've told have each come back with the old saw "It was different back then," followed by "It will all be sorted out in the hereafter."
 
No shit.
 
Empty platitudes are programmed deep into the mormon psyche. I swear, there is an "answer" for EVERYTHING, even though the answer never actually addresses the issue. They have these pat answers so they don't have to think.
 
I know, I was like that.
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Posted: 06 December 2013 05:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
free rosko
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   I would wager a guess that 30% would be surprised enough to act and drop out. Another 30% would doubt their doubt and stay anyway. The other third would not believe it and even if tomy got up in general conference and announced it they would not believe it. 
 
   Brainwashing runs deep in the morg, for some it is too deep to even consider hearing the truth. What swayed me wasn't hidden histories but a realization that there isn't a gawd that loves me. I know that I am nothing special and don't deserve anything more than anyone else. But, I do think that if there is a gawd, he/she should show some kind of concern or love. In this regard, I sense nothing. Nothing at all.


   


Posted: 06 December 2013 05:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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son of perdition
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Good question Kori! I suspect about thirty percent already know and are choosing to stay for various reasons.  The two main reasons for staying, I would think, are family ties and employment situations. 
 
I would guess that if they all really knew with no possibility of the church being true that atleast 50 percent would leave. Twenty Five percent would wait to see what was most convenient for them to do and the other twenty five percent would try to fix the beast.


   


Posted: 06 December 2013 06:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
Curious NeverMo
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I don't know the organization of course, so for me it's just a guess about social groups.  And my guess is that 85% or more would choose to look past the historical fact IF they ever even were willing to accept it.  They'd stay because it's affiliation with a social group and not trancendental faith they're after but being a part of something larger than themselves.  
 
OTOH, the good news is that the more people are armed with the truth, the less they can be stampeded around mindlessly.  So, as always and in all human endeavors, sunshine is the best disinfectant.   


   


Posted: 06 December 2013 10:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Robby Sunshine
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You'de no doubt shake off some of the less committed, less invested, and those already laboring with serious doubt, but I don't believe it would be the kind of cataclysmic exodus that some here believe/ hope. 
 
If someone is convinced that the 'Church is true' no matter what and that the only valid ethical standard is absolute obedience to the LDS God, these things fail to matter. They'll shrug it off as none of their business or readily explainable if only we had ALL the facts. If that doesn't work, they can attribute it to a 'test of faith'. Neither science nor history offers absolute certainty, so as long as they believe that whatever phenomena they interpret as 'testimony' DOES offer absolute certainty, there's no reaching them.
 
 
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“Now Korihor said unto him: I do not deny the existence of a God, but I do not believe that there is a God; and I also say, that ye do not know that there is a God” (Alma 30:48)


   


Posted: 07 December 2013 12:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
quietlydifferent
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Kori:
the full extent of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young's polyandry and how it completely vioated "The Law of the Priesthood"?
 
Those are the key phrases for me. If they all knew that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young violated the very teachings they taught I think a pretty high (80+) percentage would leave. Just knowing about the polyandry without realizing how completely they violated the "commandments" wouldn't effect 30% or so.


   


Posted: 07 December 2013 06:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Bold Wish
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Is it okay to steal from thieves?
 
I belive many remain - partly - because of their huge amount of time and financial resources invested, especially the older members.
 
When I realized it was a scam, I never ever made another claim that "I know this is true" because, well, that would be lying and I don't lie - unless I'm lying to those who are liars or who represent and protect the liars.
 
On the other hand, since I knew the organization was clearly fake, and so-called "inspired leaders" made bold claims that "it's all true or a farce" then I had zero guilt for returning to a normal life, while still mingling with them until I had created the proper situation and mustered enough courage to tell TBM wife I was 100% done. 
 
 
I still laugh when I think about sitting in an interview with the bishop or SP and they had zero discernment - nothing - I left those interviews laughing at how stupid the TR interview process was - but having a TR kept TBM wife happy for a while so I worked the system - yes, I lied to the liars - to maintain affairs in my personal life that they no longer had control over.
 
 
And that feeling of reclaiming ownership, taking back what was mine, was simply awesome, a truly rewarding experience I will never, ever regret.  So, yes, I reclaimed my capability of reason from those who used deceitful practices to steal it.
 
Bastards.
 
 
 
 
 
 
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When I discovered the truth and realized the organization was lying to me, that they had always been lying to me, I felt a sting of betrayal, the humiliation from an organization who profits abundantly by violating trust.  I knew that no matter what would come of it, I could no longer remain associated with the organization in any way.  Since leaving, I’ve enjoyed thinking on my own, guilt is almost a foreign concept, and being in control of my life is incredibly satisfying.


   


Posted: 07 December 2013 07:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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Bold Wish:
 
...I still laugh when I think about sitting in an interview with the bishop or SP and they had zero discernment - nothing - I left those interviews laughing at how stupid the TR interview process was - but having a TR kept TBM wife happy for a while so I worked the system - yes, I lied to the liars - to maintain affairs in my personal life that they no longer had control over.
 
Watching the larger Mormon membership begin to distill into something I never experienced is inevitable I guess.  I've don't seem to recall anything like, one of these newer LDS kids that lie so well it could make a man like former president Bill Clinton proud.
 
And they still want to call this a church?  For how much longer?
 
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Posted: 07 December 2013 10:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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A great question. I know for myself having just found out about this stuff. And I want out. I want out today....but must talk to the DW first. And then I will send in my papers. 
 
 BUT I know for a fact that my very tbm Mom would shake her head and probably 1. Not believe what I told her. 2. Just say that the Church is true. And be done with it. Now in her case, my dad passed away about 5 years ago. So if she found out it's not true, and then found out the temple sealing isn't real. I think it would destroy her. But I know that even if my dad was still alive, that she wouldn't believe me. She is one of the TBM's who believes in all the 3 Nephite stories, and heard tha an Apostle visited a local ward and made prosimes that the end is near, even though he can't say just when. To prepare cause it's near.
 
  Even as a tbm, I hated those stupid stories...
 
 So yeah, some people just can't think for themselves. They believe and do what they are told. I am sure most like it. It makes life easy. "Should I drink?  Nope, he church says no. That was easy."
 
 
 


   


Posted: 07 December 2013 10:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Don't believe it would really make much difference. Many would never pay attention and many who did would rationalize it away just as they do now. Ignore and keep on keepin'on.
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Posted: 07 December 2013 09:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Many people, and not just Latter-day Saints, want others to make the hard decisions for them.  It is easier to let others do your thinking for you.  I imagine them as the sheep in Orwell's 1984.  There will be much chaos if the walls come tumbling down and Mormons are no longer bound by the rules that somebody decided were the rules. There will also be many people looking for somebody new to tell them what to do.  
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There are many other forms of lying. When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.
http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-31-honesty?lang=eng


   


Posted: 07 December 2013 11:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
finex
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I'd say the ones that would stay could very well accept the FLDS doctrine, so I'd say that not many. 

   


Posted: 08 December 2013 12:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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free rosko:
   I would wager a guess that 30% would be surprised enough to act and drop out. Another 30% would doubt their doubt and stay anyway. The other third would not believe it and even if tomy got up in general conference and announced it they would not believe it.
 
 Have you ever seen a documentary called "Kumare"? It's about a young Indian-American man named Vikram who decides to conduct an expirement, by pretending to be a Guru named Kumare. He presented his own spiritual philosophy to the followers he managed to accumulate, and then after a few months, he revealed himself to them. What was really interesting was that out of the 15 devoted followers he had, only 4 of them felt betrayed and lost contact with him. To this day, the other 11 still keep regular contact with Vikram and insist he has spiritual powers. 
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—Mark Twain


   


Posted: 08 December 2013 08:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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The TBM response would be "they were talking as men, not prophets...when they practiced polygamy." That's the church-encouraged response. Which begs the question, aren't all the "prophets" just men?
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Should Mormon Women be Given the Priesthood?
Women: I am in favor of this 8 
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Should Mormon Women be Given the Priesthood - Poll  
Posted: 25 November 2013 11:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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   Here is a chance to make history. A recent post about Women receiving the Priesthood and an article by Robert Kirby in the Salt Lake Tribune stated that 52% of men opposed Women from getting the Priesthood. And, 90% of Women opposed it. 
 
   This information came from a poll that I will assume was conducted in all fairness and honesty. Here we have a chance to take a poll of a group of members who are interested in making the transition out of mormonism.  Perhaps one day in the future this poll will be also qouted.
 
 


   


Posted: 25 November 2013 11:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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   For those who don't believe in a priesthood, this poll is about those still in the grasps of the morganisation and if they should be given the same powers as the men.
 



   


Posted: 25 November 2013 11:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Sunbeep:
   For those who don't believe in a priesthood, this poll is about those still in the grasps of the morganisation and if they should be given the same powers as the men.
 
 
 
Equal is equal so yes if it really mattered and still yes if equal is equal even though it doesn't matter
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Posted: 25 November 2013 06:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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I tend to be in support of women gaining rights within religions. There is something off with this one. In other religions women are accepted into their clergy as an organization that admits to being run by flawed people who have come to grow and learn and develop. With the Morg the very thing they are fighting for they are denying by fighting for it. The priesthood, first and formost, involves the right to recieve revelation (can't type that with a straight face btw) and lead the organization as those who speak for an all-powerful, all-knowing being. By trying to get that right rather than waiting for those who have it to give it is basically saying you don't believe they have the right to speak for your god and they don't rule by right which is essentially saying you don't believe in the thing you say you want. It baffles my mind because, as I see it, if you feel the church has been wrong on who gets the thing that is considered the central thing restored by said church than you might as well admit that you don't actually believe the church is true. If you want to have greater say in your religion then just move to a group that would give you say already and let the old thing die already. 

   


Posted: 26 November 2013 12:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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My wife says that they'd be doing all the work and that the men would completely morph into drones.  
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There are many other forms of lying. When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.
http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-31-honesty?lang=eng


   


Posted: 26 November 2013 12:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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quietlydifferent:
I tend to be in support of women gaining rights within religions. There is something off with this one. In other religions women are accepted into their clergy as an organization that admits to being run by flawed people who have come to grow and learn and develop. With the Morg the very thing they are fighting for they are denying by fighting for it. The priesthood, first and formost, involves the right to recieve revelation (can't type that with a straight face btw) and lead the organization as those who speak for an all-powerful, all-knowing being. By trying to get that right rather than waiting for those who have it to give it is basically saying you don't believe they have the right to speak for your god and they don't rule by right which is essentially saying you don't believe in the thing you say you want. It baffles my mind because, as I see it, if you feel the church has been wrong on who gets the thing that is considered the central thing restored by said church than you might as well admit that you don't actually believe the church is true. If you want to have greater say in your religion then just move to a group that would give you say already and let the old thing die already.
 
 I agree with this statement...
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There are many other forms of lying. When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.
http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-31-honesty?lang=eng


   


Posted: 26 November 2013 07:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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I know most of you used to be Mormons or you still attend but disbelieve or have doubts.  Some who visit this site could be TBM’s with an interest in what is discussed here.  Women have always been a central point where the Gospel is concerned.  I don’t want to appear to be disrespectful to anyone here as we all have opinions on this issue.  As for women’s roles and responsibilities in the church perhaps we should refer to the scriptures.

First let’s determine what are scriptures according to TBMs.  Refer to AofF #8: “we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.”  IF the TBM’s relied only on this book they would easily determine what God thinks about women and their roles in the church.  Throughout the BofM God (and or His ancient prophets) speak very highly of women.  One example of this is in 2 Nephi 26:33.

33  For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

As you can see the Lord does not hold a man in higher honor than God holds a woman.  ALL are alike unto God!  IF this is truly the word of God as the TBMs believe you might ask yourself who was the author of AofF #5??  Keep in mind as you read #5 that is was Oliver who laid hands on JSJ after they baptized each other, which by the way was during a time when God had told JSJ he would receive no other gift because of his sin against God.  “By those who are in authority?”  Oliver was not in authority!  This is just A MAN’s article of his faith.

You should ask yourself something:  IF God said in 2 Nephi 26:33 both men and women ARE ALIKE UNTO GOD and the so called priesthood (or priestcraft) was supposed to have been received during a time when God had forbidden it WHY would a woman want to be part of something a man made up?

Simple answer as I see it:  Women should be able to do anything in a true church of God IF they so chose.  Women have a GREAT deal of influence over their men anywaysJ.  www.truthaboutldsmormons.com
 


   


Posted: 28 November 2013 12:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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FreeLive:
Sunbeep:
   For those who don't believe in a priesthood, this poll is about those still in the grasps of the morganisation and if they should be given the same powers as the men.
 
 
 
Equal is equal so yes if it really mattered and still yes if equal is equal even though it doesn't matter
 
 I agree, as women are basically second class citizens in the Mormon church, and by allowing them to be lay clergy, they would be treated as equals. I call the Mormon priesthood lay clergy, since it's really easy to obtain. All it requires now is for someone to be a biological male and have a pulse. Other churches, including those that have women clergy, require years of actual seminary studies where they learn theology and take classes in psychology. 
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Posted: 29 November 2013 12:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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When I was TBM; hell no. One more thing to do. Now that I'm not TBM, whatever, I don't care. 

   


Posted: 29 November 2013 12:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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The so-called mormon priesthood is a bad joke on human kind... but, I say, give the ladies the keys to the kingdom - equality for all/no limits!  victim 

   


Posted: 29 November 2013 03:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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bjohn:
When I was TBM; hell no. One more thing to do. Now that I'm not TBM, whatever, I don't care.
 
 my thoughts exactly.
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Posted: 03 December 2013 08:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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   The results of this poll surprise me a little. The men in the morg as well as the men who have no interest in the morg are relatively equally divided but the women who have no interest in it have shifted sides in a large way. Is that because women who want out are more inclined to voice an opinion? 
 
   I'm all for women being equal in all things. I'd love to see some women in the top morg group. I'd love to see women in charge of more than just themselves in a very limited way. Can you imagine an entity as huge as the morg being run just by men? Oh, Yeah, that is the way it is now. And look how muddled up it is with out-dated ideas and methods. 
 
   Maybe I am wrong, but I think that women who want to lead, should lead. And, women who want to follow, should follow. The same with men. Those who want to lead should and those who don't shouldn't. None of us should be walked on.
 
 


   


Posted: 03 December 2013 09:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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free rosko:
   The results of this poll surprise me a little. The men in the morg as well as the men who have no interest in the morg are relatively equally divided but the women who have no interest in it have shifted sides in a large way. Is that because women who want out are more inclined to voice an opinion? 
 
   I'm all for women being equal in all things. I'd love to see some women in the top morg group. I'd love to see women in charge of more than just themselves in a very limited way. Can you imagine an entity as huge as the morg being run just by men? Oh, Yeah, that is the way it is now. And look how muddled up it is with out-dated ideas and methods. 
 
   Maybe I am wrong, but I think that women who want to lead, should lead. And, women who want to follow, should follow. The same with men. Those who want to lead should and those who don't shouldn't. None of us should be walked on.
 
 
 
You're right! It is muddled up and backwards. Is this because men generally aren't as good at listening to stakeholders as women are? Perhaps, but I hope not. I think it's because the Morg seeks leaders at all levels who are willing to believe that they are sanctioned by God in telling others what to do. I'm afraid that if the Morg lets women into any position where they would have authority in the church, the organization will seek women of that same stripe. I'm sure they will be found and trained. They won't seek or promote female leaders who don't have outdated ideas and methods. The organization seeks leaders willing to abuse power for the benefit of the church.

You make another point here that is good, and I think my comment on it perhaps conflicts with what I just wrote above. I am of two minds. I think the church forces people into leadership. People who do not want to lead are often coerced into to guiding others based on the teaching that we mustn't decline any calling extended. Some people just shouldn't be leaders, and even the feeling that it is their obligation or destiny to do so won't make them adept at it. We're not all Simba from the Lion King. That's the stuff of fairy tales.

I'd like to see the Morg led by people who really care about the members more than the doctrine. I don't care whether they're men or women.
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Posted: 03 December 2013 01:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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Like most patriarchal (read: most ALL) religions, TSCC is AFRAID of the power of women, of the priestess archetype. I believe that pagan, druidic & many indigenous religions have been deemed "evil" (especially by the BIG 3, Abrahamic religions) because of their belief in goddesses or feminine creators. THEY want to be in charge of creation & destruction. THEY want to be in charge of female sexuality. If women are subject to men, then men get to hold these keys, so to speak.
 
It brings to mind what Malala Yousafzai said in her speech at the U.N.: "The extremists are afraid of books and pens. The power of education frightens them. They are afraid of women. The power of the voice of women frightens them."
 


   


            
 
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Tom Cruise Disses Scientology C’mon Donny “OZ Man”  
Posted: 18 November 2013 05:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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"Remember back in the day when those Dianetics commercials first started airing (with the volcano??) and Scientology was all crazy mysterious (as opposed to just crazy)? Or maybe you don't remember those commercials, because you're not as ancient as me. That's okay, because chances are you can still remember a time when Scientology was THE hot celeb cult religion lifestyle trend pyramid scheme whatever you want to call it, right?
Well. Ever since Tom Cruise started acting a little ... odd, the church of Xenu has been slowly losing its prestige, with secrets leaking out all over the place in the form of tell-all books and celebrity escapes and snubbed potential spouses, and the latest nail in Scientology's coffin might be the most significant yet -- especially because it was hammered in there by none other than L. Ron Hubbard's chosen one.
 
So, you know how we've all always, always known that Katie Holmes most likely divorced Tom Cruise to get Suri away from Scientology before she got old enough for that creepy, creepy, creepy version of 20 questions that asks people if they blew up planets and sh*t? But nobody ever confirmed it, exactly?? Well, Cruise let the truth slip while giving a (long-ass) deposition as part of his defamation suit against In Touch magazine.
Apparently lawyers asked him if Holmes divorced Cruise to “in part to protect Suri from Scientology," and that's when the Top Gun star flipped, saying, “Listen, I find that question offensive. I find it, those statements offensive. Like with any relationship, there are many different levels to it. You know, I, I find it very offensive. There is no need to protect my daughter from my religion.”
And THEN the lawyers asked, “And Ms. Holmes has never indicated in any way that was one of the reasons she left you? …To protect Suri from Scientology?”
And finally Cruise was like: “Did she say that? That was one of the assertions, yes.”
Whoa!! Let's break that down: Did she say that? So right there, we know that Tom is PISSED Katie sang like a cult-traumatized canary. (Uh-oh.) And then we have: That was one of the assertions, yes. Which is code, obviously, for: That was one of the blasphemous allegations made by my former wife who will suffer the wrath of Xenu forevermore. 
WOW! I must say I'm surprised Cruise didn't deny that one with all the passion of a lovestruck couch jumper. I mean, shoot -- Scientology's PR team is gonna have to start working overtime to reverse all the recent damage!! (Either their PR team or their hit men.)
Are you surprised Tom Cruise finally admitted the truth about his divorce?"
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Posted: 18 November 2013 08:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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It is a bit of a lame diss...sorta like some TBMs that "forgive" JS for his 14-year\old girl polygamy sin. And the lack of Lamanite DNA...and the BOA falling apart. And the rock-in-the-hat.
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Posted: 19 November 2013 08:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Tessa:
It is a bit of a lame diss...sorta like some TBMs that "forgive" JS for his 14-year\old girl polygamy sin. And the lack of Lamanite DNA...and the BOA falling apart. And the rock-in-the-hat.
 
I bet almost anybody near Katie could hear the series of clicks when thos switches flipped inside of her head.  Knowing she had to get her precious child far away from this kind of krazy-krap.
 
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Posted: 19 November 2013 09:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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It was sending her child away to that Scientology camp, "The Ranch"...that did it. (Starting at age 6....indoctrination and slave labor.) http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/scientologist-exposes-church-brutal-child-labor-camp-article-1.1291350
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Posted: 19 November 2013 09:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Scientology is mormonism for the science fiction fan. 


   


Posted: 19 November 2013 11:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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peace out:
Scientology is mormonism for the science fiction fan. 
 
What a tight-rope walk, a Trekkie with an iPhone that can't be utilized.
 
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Posted: 23 November 2013 07:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Scientology's worst nightmare: Why they made author Lawrence Wright look like a demon
 
Mormonism could maybe try and learn from these guys.
 
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Man commits suicide outside Las Vegas temple (link)  
Posted: 20 November 2013 09:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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  http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2013/nov/19/man-kills-himself-outside-las-vegas-mormon-temple/
 
Any further insight?
 
I am sad for his family. 
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Posted: 20 November 2013 11:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Follow up: The coronor has ID'd the man.
 
http://www.mynews3.com/content/news/local/story/Mormon-Temple-Suicide-Las-Vegas-Bybee/_0Ou_TEtcUGwzdbuhbdX8w.cspx
 
This is getting some play on some of the other boards. Apparently the man suffered from bipolar disorder, but why this choice of venue? Tragic.
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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 20 November 2013 11:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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A comment to a story somewhere said he was a member of a ward that was inside in a session.  
 
So tragic.   


   


Posted: 20 November 2013 12:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Would have been bigger news if he had done it in the Temple.
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Posted: 20 November 2013 01:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized:
but why this choice of venue? 
 
A good friend of mine from high school did this same thing at the Provo Temple in 1991. I understand he had a mental disorder of some kind, something I had no idea about when were in school together. I was on my mission when he did it and found out about when I got back.
 
I'm sure he saw some symbolism or importance (both of these men did, that is) in their choice of venue. 
 
Tragic, indeed. Beyond tragic. 
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Posted: 20 November 2013 02:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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dave (e_nomo)
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Swearing Elder:
Matter Unorganized:
but why this choice of venue? 
 
A good friend of mine from high school did this same thing at the Provo Temple in 1991. I understand he had a mental disorder of some kind, something I had no idea about when were in school together. I was on my mission when he did it and found out about when I got back.
 
I'm sure he saw some symbolism or importance (both of these men did, that is) in their choice of venue. 
 
Tragic, indeed. Beyond tragic. 
In a way it's not surprising that someone who is very troubled and facing the ultimate decision (life or death) would go to the most sacred place they know to consider it (assuming he was mormon). 
Yes, beyond tragic. 
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Posted: 20 November 2013 03:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Yes, he was LDS. The man's father is Federal Judge Jay Bybee, the former bishop behind waterboarding. 
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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 20 November 2013 03:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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AprilT
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This story breaks my heart.  I have many friends and family in Las Vegas.  Whatever this man was going through got the better of him (one of the comments from someone claiming to be a close friend of the famiy said he was depressed due to the death of a child), and instead of sending condolonces or sympathy, most of the commenters are just spouting why TSCC is true.  
This comment made me see red for a moment.  
"Obedience to the teachings of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (aka Mormons) leads to incredible happiness. Disobedience to gods teachings and commandments will always lead to guilt and sadness, no matter what religion one believes. This poor man just didn't understand the principle of repentance and the sacrifice of our savior Jesus Christ. God doesn't expect perfection, he just wants us to constantly strive to better ourselves every day, Jesus already did the rest."  (Empahsis mine)
 
So he was just not obedient, and just didn't understand.  If only he'd obeyed, he would have been prefectly happy!  Let's not think for a moment he may have been mentally ill. Or that the death of his child contributed to his depression.  Having dealt with depression myself, and watching many people battle it, comments like this make me want to lash out.  So I kept my mouth shut in the comments section, I don't have the mental energy to hold a conversation with someone like this.  Obey, Obey, Obey, pay your 10%! Repent!  Such a simplistic answer to a very real problem.  Gha.... 
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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.  ~Edmund Burke


   


Posted: 20 November 2013 05:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
fled Utah
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AprilT:
This story breaks my heart.  I have many friends and family in Las Vegas.  Whatever this man was going through got the better of him (one of the comments from someone claiming to be a close friend of the famiy said he was depressed due to the death of a child), and instead of sending condolonces or sympathy, most of the commenters are just spouting why TSCC is true.  
This comment made me see red for a moment.  
"Obedience to the teachings of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (aka Mormons) leads to incredible happiness. Disobedience to gods teachings and commandments will always lead to guilt and sadness, no matter what religion one believes. This poor man just didn't understand the principle of repentance and the sacrifice of our savior Jesus Christ. God doesn't expect perfection, he just wants us to constantly strive to better ourselves every day, Jesus already did the rest."  (Empahsis mine)
 
So he was just not obedient, and just didn't understand.  If only he'd obeyed, he would have been prefectly happy!  Let's not think for a moment he may have been mentally ill. Or that the death of his child contributed to his depression.  Having dealt with depression myself, and watching many people battle it, comments like this make me want to lash out.  So I kept my mouth shut in the comments section, I don't have the mental energy to hold a conversation with someone like this.  Obey, Obey, Obey, pay your 10%! Repent!  Such a simplistic answer to a very real problem.  Gha.... 
 
AprilT, thanks so much for your thoughts on this. That is crazy that people would say such a thing in responce to a horrible pain. Wow. It is so upsetting. News comments really are the worst things in the world. I was a guest columnist in the Provo Daily Herald a few months ago -- people were crazy. So judgemental. So rude. Who has the time to ready and comment on every article? Some people, that is for sure. 
 
I have a lot of depressed Mormon friends, and they are wracked with guilt in not being able to make life work. I am not to the point of saying those people would not be depressed if they were not TBM, but it just adds to the pressure I think. 
 
My heart is also broken by this story. I would hope that both Mormons and Post MOs would not use this as a time to push their own thoughts. It is important to process feelings of course no matter when they come, but in the end, this story is just about one person's hurt.  (And it is a little about someone killng themself at the temple, which is so intense) 


   


Posted: 20 November 2013 07:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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kinderhooker
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fled Utah:
AprilT:
snip
  
This comment made me see red for a moment.  
"Obedience to the teachings of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (aka Mormons) leads to incredible happiness. Disobedience to gods teachings and commandments will always lead to guilt and sadness, no matter what religion one believes. This poor man just didn't understand the principle of repentance and the sacrifice of our savior Jesus Christ. God doesn't expect perfection, he just wants us to constantly strive to better ourselves every day, Jesus already did the rest."  (Empahsis mine)
 
snip
snip
 
I have a lot of depressed Mormon friends, and they are wracked with guilt in not being able to make life work. I am not to the point of saying those people would not be depressed if they were not TBM, but it just adds to the pressure I think. 
 
snip 
The lie highlighted in red is one of the most insidious and diabolical lies told by the Church: Obedience begets happiness and joy!
 
It does no such thing. People will be depressed, obedient or not, and even attempting to obey all the petty rules of the Morg is asking for failure, which ultimately breeds discontent of one kind or another. Most often, that repeated failure contributes to depression. However, even people who get past the Morg's guilt machine have to face what's in yellow: They are expected to feel happy, and then wonder what's wrong with them when the happiness doesn't flow.

I was so sick of being told how I should feel or what I had felt during this or that meeting, or when I read the scriptures! What if I don't feel it? Is something wrong with me that keeps me from feeling it, or are the Brethren™ lying? And if I feel a feeling, how can I trust them to know what it means?
 
My effing feelings are mine! I took them back a year ago last month, and I'm keeping them, and interpreting them myself. How do I feel when I think about the church? Angry. My interpretation is that the church is bad for me.
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Posted: 21 November 2013 01:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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In my opinion, which is not professional, you gotta have some serious anger toward the church and Mormons to off yourself in this manner.  Suicide in such a public way is a giant "FU". 
 


   


Posted: 21 November 2013 03:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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fled Utah:
AprilT:
This story breaks my heart.  I have many friends and family in Las Vegas.  Whatever this man was going through got the better of him (one of the comments from someone claiming to be a close friend of the famiy said he was depressed due to the death of a child), and instead of sending condolonces or sympathy, most of the commenters are just spouting why TSCC is true.  
This comment made me see red for a moment.  
"Obedience to the teachings of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (aka Mormons) leads to incredible happiness. Disobedience to gods teachings and commandments will always lead to guilt and sadness, no matter what religion one believes. This poor man just didn't understand the principle of repentance and the sacrifice of our savior Jesus Christ. God doesn't expect perfection, he just wants us to constantly strive to better ourselves every day, Jesus already did the rest."  (Empahsis mine)
 
So he was just not obedient, and just didn't understand.  If only he'd obeyed, he would have been prefectly happy!  Let's not think for a moment he may have been mentally ill. Or that the death of his child contributed to his depression.  Having dealt with depression myself, and watching many people battle it, comments like this make me want to lash out.  So I kept my mouth shut in the comments section, I don't have the mental energy to hold a conversation with someone like this.  Obey, Obey, Obey, pay your 10%! Repent!  Such a simplistic answer to a very real problem.  Gha.... 
 
AprilT, thanks so much for your thoughts on this. That is crazy that people would say such a thing in responce to a horrible pain. Wow. It is so upsetting. News comments really are the worst things in the world. I was a guest columnist in the Provo Daily Herald a few months ago -- people were crazy. So judgemental. So rude. Who has the time to ready and comment on every article? Some people, that is for sure. 
 
I have a lot of depressed Mormon friends, and they are wracked with guilt in not being able to make life work. I am not to the point of saying those people would not be depressed if they were not TBM, but it just adds to the pressure I think. 
 
My heart is also broken by this story. I would hope that both Mormons and Post MOs would not use this as a time to push their own thoughts. It is important to process feelings of course no matter when they come, but in the end, this story is just about one person's hurt.  (And it is a little about someone killng themself at the temple, which is so intense) 
 
 When reading news stories, I usually don't read comments for this very reason.  People say things they wouldn't say in person because they are behind a screen instead of face to face.  Ignorant comments like the one I copied from this article upset me, so I usually try to stay away from them, but this comment was the first one at the end of the story, so it was right there.....  And it really struck a chord in me, this blanket idea that blind obedience brings happiness.  Reminded me of another recent thread here about the mormon man-children vs being an actual adult.  No matter what he was going through, and what his religion was, a mans life was lost, there are people that are hurting because of this, and all some of those "christians" can focus on was his sin (real or imagined).  I can't even imagine being his family and having to read some of those hate filled comments.  
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Man commits suicide outside Las Vegas temple (link)  
Posted: 20 November 2013 09:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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  http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2013/nov/19/man-kills-himself-outside-las-vegas-mormon-temple/
 
Any further insight?
 
I am sad for his family. 
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Posted: 20 November 2013 11:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Follow up: The coronor has ID'd the man.
 
http://www.mynews3.com/content/news/local/story/Mormon-Temple-Suicide-Las-Vegas-Bybee/_0Ou_TEtcUGwzdbuhbdX8w.cspx
 
This is getting some play on some of the other boards. Apparently the man suffered from bipolar disorder, but why this choice of venue? Tragic.
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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 20 November 2013 11:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
Curious NeverMo
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A comment to a story somewhere said he was a member of a ward that was inside in a session.  
 
So tragic.   


   


Posted: 20 November 2013 12:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Would have been bigger news if he had done it in the Temple.
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Posted: 20 November 2013 01:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized:
but why this choice of venue? 
 
A good friend of mine from high school did this same thing at the Provo Temple in 1991. I understand he had a mental disorder of some kind, something I had no idea about when were in school together. I was on my mission when he did it and found out about when I got back.
 
I'm sure he saw some symbolism or importance (both of these men did, that is) in their choice of venue. 
 
Tragic, indeed. Beyond tragic. 
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Posted: 20 November 2013 02:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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dave (e_nomo)
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Swearing Elder:
Matter Unorganized:
but why this choice of venue? 
 
A good friend of mine from high school did this same thing at the Provo Temple in 1991. I understand he had a mental disorder of some kind, something I had no idea about when were in school together. I was on my mission when he did it and found out about when I got back.
 
I'm sure he saw some symbolism or importance (both of these men did, that is) in their choice of venue. 
 
Tragic, indeed. Beyond tragic. 
In a way it's not surprising that someone who is very troubled and facing the ultimate decision (life or death) would go to the most sacred place they know to consider it (assuming he was mormon). 
Yes, beyond tragic. 
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Posted: 20 November 2013 03:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Yes, he was LDS. The man's father is Federal Judge Jay Bybee, the former bishop behind waterboarding. 
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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 20 November 2013 03:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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AprilT
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This story breaks my heart.  I have many friends and family in Las Vegas.  Whatever this man was going through got the better of him (one of the comments from someone claiming to be a close friend of the famiy said he was depressed due to the death of a child), and instead of sending condolonces or sympathy, most of the commenters are just spouting why TSCC is true.  
This comment made me see red for a moment.  
"Obedience to the teachings of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (aka Mormons) leads to incredible happiness. Disobedience to gods teachings and commandments will always lead to guilt and sadness, no matter what religion one believes. This poor man just didn't understand the principle of repentance and the sacrifice of our savior Jesus Christ. God doesn't expect perfection, he just wants us to constantly strive to better ourselves every day, Jesus already did the rest."  (Empahsis mine)
 
So he was just not obedient, and just didn't understand.  If only he'd obeyed, he would have been prefectly happy!  Let's not think for a moment he may have been mentally ill. Or that the death of his child contributed to his depression.  Having dealt with depression myself, and watching many people battle it, comments like this make me want to lash out.  So I kept my mouth shut in the comments section, I don't have the mental energy to hold a conversation with someone like this.  Obey, Obey, Obey, pay your 10%! Repent!  Such a simplistic answer to a very real problem.  Gha.... 
 Signature
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.  ~Edmund Burke


   


Posted: 20 November 2013 05:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
fled Utah
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AprilT:
This story breaks my heart.  I have many friends and family in Las Vegas.  Whatever this man was going through got the better of him (one of the comments from someone claiming to be a close friend of the famiy said he was depressed due to the death of a child), and instead of sending condolonces or sympathy, most of the commenters are just spouting why TSCC is true.  
This comment made me see red for a moment.  
"Obedience to the teachings of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (aka Mormons) leads to incredible happiness. Disobedience to gods teachings and commandments will always lead to guilt and sadness, no matter what religion one believes. This poor man just didn't understand the principle of repentance and the sacrifice of our savior Jesus Christ. God doesn't expect perfection, he just wants us to constantly strive to better ourselves every day, Jesus already did the rest."  (Empahsis mine)
 
So he was just not obedient, and just didn't understand.  If only he'd obeyed, he would have been prefectly happy!  Let's not think for a moment he may have been mentally ill. Or that the death of his child contributed to his depression.  Having dealt with depression myself, and watching many people battle it, comments like this make me want to lash out.  So I kept my mouth shut in the comments section, I don't have the mental energy to hold a conversation with someone like this.  Obey, Obey, Obey, pay your 10%! Repent!  Such a simplistic answer to a very real problem.  Gha.... 
 
AprilT, thanks so much for your thoughts on this. That is crazy that people would say such a thing in responce to a horrible pain. Wow. It is so upsetting. News comments really are the worst things in the world. I was a guest columnist in the Provo Daily Herald a few months ago -- people were crazy. So judgemental. So rude. Who has the time to ready and comment on every article? Some people, that is for sure. 
 
I have a lot of depressed Mormon friends, and they are wracked with guilt in not being able to make life work. I am not to the point of saying those people would not be depressed if they were not TBM, but it just adds to the pressure I think. 
 
My heart is also broken by this story. I would hope that both Mormons and Post MOs would not use this as a time to push their own thoughts. It is important to process feelings of course no matter when they come, but in the end, this story is just about one person's hurt.  (And it is a little about someone killng themself at the temple, which is so intense) 


   


Posted: 20 November 2013 07:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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kinderhooker
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fled Utah:
AprilT:
snip
  
This comment made me see red for a moment.  
"Obedience to the teachings of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (aka Mormons) leads to incredible happiness. Disobedience to gods teachings and commandments will always lead to guilt and sadness, no matter what religion one believes. This poor man just didn't understand the principle of repentance and the sacrifice of our savior Jesus Christ. God doesn't expect perfection, he just wants us to constantly strive to better ourselves every day, Jesus already did the rest."  (Empahsis mine)
 
snip
snip
 
I have a lot of depressed Mormon friends, and they are wracked with guilt in not being able to make life work. I am not to the point of saying those people would not be depressed if they were not TBM, but it just adds to the pressure I think. 
 
snip 
The lie highlighted in red is one of the most insidious and diabolical lies told by the Church: Obedience begets happiness and joy!
 
It does no such thing. People will be depressed, obedient or not, and even attempting to obey all the petty rules of the Morg is asking for failure, which ultimately breeds discontent of one kind or another. Most often, that repeated failure contributes to depression. However, even people who get past the Morg's guilt machine have to face what's in yellow: They are expected to feel happy, and then wonder what's wrong with them when the happiness doesn't flow.

I was so sick of being told how I should feel or what I had felt during this or that meeting, or when I read the scriptures! What if I don't feel it? Is something wrong with me that keeps me from feeling it, or are the Brethren™ lying? And if I feel a feeling, how can I trust them to know what it means?
 
My effing feelings are mine! I took them back a year ago last month, and I'm keeping them, and interpreting them myself. How do I feel when I think about the church? Angry. My interpretation is that the church is bad for me.
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Posted: 21 November 2013 01:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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In my opinion, which is not professional, you gotta have some serious anger toward the church and Mormons to off yourself in this manner.  Suicide in such a public way is a giant "FU". 
 


   


Posted: 21 November 2013 03:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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fled Utah:
AprilT:
This story breaks my heart.  I have many friends and family in Las Vegas.  Whatever this man was going through got the better of him (one of the comments from someone claiming to be a close friend of the famiy said he was depressed due to the death of a child), and instead of sending condolonces or sympathy, most of the commenters are just spouting why TSCC is true.  
This comment made me see red for a moment.  
"Obedience to the teachings of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (aka Mormons) leads to incredible happiness. Disobedience to gods teachings and commandments will always lead to guilt and sadness, no matter what religion one believes. This poor man just didn't understand the principle of repentance and the sacrifice of our savior Jesus Christ. God doesn't expect perfection, he just wants us to constantly strive to better ourselves every day, Jesus already did the rest."  (Empahsis mine)
 
So he was just not obedient, and just didn't understand.  If only he'd obeyed, he would have been prefectly happy!  Let's not think for a moment he may have been mentally ill. Or that the death of his child contributed to his depression.  Having dealt with depression myself, and watching many people battle it, comments like this make me want to lash out.  So I kept my mouth shut in the comments section, I don't have the mental energy to hold a conversation with someone like this.  Obey, Obey, Obey, pay your 10%! Repent!  Such a simplistic answer to a very real problem.  Gha.... 
 
AprilT, thanks so much for your thoughts on this. That is crazy that people would say such a thing in responce to a horrible pain. Wow. It is so upsetting. News comments really are the worst things in the world. I was a guest columnist in the Provo Daily Herald a few months ago -- people were crazy. So judgemental. So rude. Who has the time to ready and comment on every article? Some people, that is for sure. 
 
I have a lot of depressed Mormon friends, and they are wracked with guilt in not being able to make life work. I am not to the point of saying those people would not be depressed if they were not TBM, but it just adds to the pressure I think. 
 
My heart is also broken by this story. I would hope that both Mormons and Post MOs would not use this as a time to push their own thoughts. It is important to process feelings of course no matter when they come, but in the end, this story is just about one person's hurt.  (And it is a little about someone killng themself at the temple, which is so intense) 
 
 When reading news stories, I usually don't read comments for this very reason.  People say things they wouldn't say in person because they are behind a screen instead of face to face.  Ignorant comments like the one I copied from this article upset me, so I usually try to stay away from them, but this comment was the first one at the end of the story, so it was right there.....  And it really struck a chord in me, this blanket idea that blind obedience brings happiness.  Reminded me of another recent thread here about the mormon man-children vs being an actual adult.  No matter what he was going through, and what his religion was, a mans life was lost, there are people that are hurting because of this, and all some of those "christians" can focus on was his sin (real or imagined).  I can't even imagine being his family and having to read some of those hate filled comments.  
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Ten Things You Didn’t Know About The LDS Church  
Posted: 11 November 2013 12:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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Only ten?
 
 
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Posted: 11 November 2013 02:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth:

Only ten?
 
 
 
 There are few comments, but all but one are completely disparaging of the content, serving to support the view that "...there are none so blind as they who will not see."


   


Posted: 11 November 2013 05:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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Elder OldDog:
josephs myth:

 
Only ten?
 
There are few comments, but all but one are completely disparaging of the content, serving to support the view that "...there are none so blind as they who will not see."
 
First, the crooked Mormon "Christian" has at least half a hundred problems to try and field.
 
http://www.towertotruth.net/Mormon/witnessing/50_questions.htm
 
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Posted: 11 November 2013 05:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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MikeUtah came up with a pretty exhaustive list, too!
 
101 Nonpublic or Weird Beliefs of Mormons
Posted by MikeUtah on September 6, 2011 at 9:30am
View Blog
This post is less about what the LDS church teaches publicly or in writing, and more about what is often not publicly admitted to, whether still believed or not, and about some of the crazier things Mormons come to believe when embedded in Mormon culture.  Though not categorized, some of these are doctrinal, others hearsay over the pulpit from apostles or leaders, and others adopted by more orthodox Mormons. (see also: Top 10 Mormon Beliefs that Contradict Christianity)
1.         Polygamy is still doctrinal in heaven and included in LDS scripture.  See D&C 132
2.         Sports should not be played on Sunday
3.         TV or movies should not be viewed on Sunday (except Church or "happy" media)
4.         Children should not be allowed to play with friends on Sunday
5.         Working on Sunday is strictly discouraged and really only not looked down on if you're an emergency response personnel, or other on-call emergency type jobs (doctors, police, firemen, nurses etc)
6.         Rated R movies should be strictly avoided
7.         10% of your gross income (tithing) needs to be paid to the bishop/church before you pay for any other financial obligations, bills, food or other purchases
8.         Coffee and tea are prohibited even though they aren't specifically referenced by doctrine
9.         For some families, all caffeinated drinks and sodas are prohibited
10.       If you have dark skin and convert to Mormonism, your skin will begin to lighten/whiten
11.       You become a God/Goddess and are given powers to create your own worlds without number
12.       You should not be alone in a room or car with a member of the opposite sex to "avoid even the appearance of evil"
13.       Beer is prohibited even though it is scripturally allowed (D&C 89:17) "...and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain"  Beer was openly consumed in Utah by Mormons until Prohibition made it unpopular and the practice ceased.
14.       The Garden of Eden was in Missouri when Adam and Eve were kicked out
15.       All saints are to return to Missouri before the final arrival of Jesus for the Second Coming.  Some believe this exodus back to Missouri would be on foot.
16.       Two LDS Elders or Missionaries will stand and protect the city of Jerusalem during Armageddon, as spoken of in Revelations and D&C 77:15
17.       Native Americans are the descendants of the Lamanites spoken of in the Book of Mormon
18.       The LDS Temple marriage is considered superior to all other religious marriage ceremonies and must be obtained if you want to be with your spouse in the after life.  Not married in the temple?  Too bad, no spouse/partner in the after life.
19.       Love isn't as strong between couples and families who are not LDS
20.       Follow the prophet or leaders even if you think they are wrong
21.       Criticism of prophets or leaders will lead you towards apostasy
22.       Don't use Ouija boards, face cards or tarot cards.  They are of the devil.
23.       The US Constitution will hang by a thread and be saved by LDS Elders before the 2nd coming
24.       Women were discouraged from wearing pants up until the late '60s or '70s
25.       3 Nephites still rome the Earth from Christ's visit to the America's, blessed by Him to not experience death until his second coming
26.       The moon will literally turn to blood during second coming crisis
27.       Heavenly Mother/Goddess exists, but she/them are too sacred to discuss and cannot be worshiped or prayed to
28.       Only Mormon's can go to the highest degree of heaven, which is why proxy ordinances are done in LDS temples for as many dead people as LDS Inc can get their hands on
29.       Kids or babies who die before reaching 8 years old are perfect and automatically get into heaven
30.       Missionaries can curse people by dusting their feet off as a witness to them rejecting the gospel
31.       Satan has power over the oceans, lakes and rivers which is why LDS Missionaries are not allowed to swim
32.       Satan can't read your thoughts so praying silently can help keep some of your secrets from him
33.       Dating is strictly prohibited until you're 16 and then only group dating is allowed or encouraged until you can marry after your mission or marry a return missionary
34.       Doctrinal polygamy gives the 1st wife authority to reject any prospects she doesn't like.  This was never really practiced though.
35.       Women who fail to marry in the temple during their life will be assigned a worthy spouse in the hereafter and likely as a sister wife with a harem of women
36.       Black people bear the curse of Cain and were born black because they were less valiant in the pre-existence (pre-Earth life) and sat on the fence as to whether to follow Satan/Lucifer or Jesus
37.       Cremation will make being resurrected harder, having to recollect all of your atoms/molecules from where ever they were spread
38.       God the father is only one of millions or endless Gods who are all basically relatives, fathers, brothers, grand-gods and so forth to our own God.  If we're worthy, we get to join the God club too.
39.       From the polygamy days, a man had to have at least 2 wives to get into the highest degree of heaven
40.       A woman's purpose in heaven is solely to birth endless babies to populate the worlds created by their husbands.  Billions and billions of babies!
41.       Gestation is still 9 months in heaven
42.       You are better off dying trying to fend off a rapist than to survive as a victim of rape, your virginity forever stolen from you
43.       Temple garments or underwear will protect you from physical harm or the grasp of Satan
44.       Girls can only have one piercing in each ear.  No piercings allowed by boys/men.
45.       Tattoos are a big no-no and should never be allowed to defile your bodies.  If you have tattoos when you convert, you may be encouraged to pay for laser removal at your own expense.
46.       Flip-flops are not to be worn in the church building
47.       All forms of birth control (condoms, pills, etc) are discouraged and the couple should allow as many children into their home as God decides to send them
48.       The Earth was not created by God, but by Jesus and Michael/Adam as taught in the LDS Temple endowment ceremony
49.       Secret hand shakes, keywords and signs are provided in the Temple endowment as passwords and keys to get back into heaven, like a kids club where only those with the secret passwords can get in
50.       The church partners with Boy Scouts of America for the development of males but does not endorse nor partner with the Girl Scout programs or similar female development programs
51.       The Holy Ghost is threatened or turned away by bars, clubs and "dirty" places so will not protect you or guide you if you choose to enter such filthy places
52.       Mormon Garments must be worn day and night, only removed for sex, showering and some sporting activities
53.       Women must wear their bras and panties over their garments, as the garment should be the layer closest to the skin for maximum protection
54.       If you're not a Mormon, or are unworthy without a temple recommend, you get excluded from the Temple wedding ceremony of loved ones, kids, siblings or best friends
55.       Mormon's do feel there is something special about them, or that they are better than non-mormons.  Having the ultimate "truth" does that to people.
56.       Masturbation is a sexual sin/transgression and seen as cheating on your existing or future spouse
57.       Sexual transgression is a sin next to murder in God's eyes
58.       Jesus atoned for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane, not on the cross
59.       Jesus wasn't born of a virgin.  God had natural sex with Mary to impregnate Jesus
60.       You can't get into heaven without Joseph Smith's permission
61.       You can visit loved ones in lower kingdoms, but you cannot visit higher kingdoms of heaven if you didn't merit it yourself, though they can visit you (see D&C 76)
62.       You can tell the difference between a good angel, bad angel or resurrected being by their willingness or ability to shake your hand
63.       No rainbows shall appear during the year before Jesus' second coming
64.       If you've had a sex change, you cannot ever hold any callings/jobs in the church and only get baptized at the express permission of the First Presidency/prophet
65.       Role playing games, like D&D, are also evil
66.       Dinosaur fossils are to test our faith, and likely came from matter left over from past destroyed planets that were used/recycled to create Earth
67.       When a prophet or leader errors, it was because he was acting as a man and not as a prophet.  There's no indication until after the fact as to whether he was acting as one or the other, so you should always presume he's acting as prophet until proven otherwise
68.       Free agency and choice is revered, but don't make the wrong choice or we will judge, look down on and guilt you until you either stop making said wrong choices
69.       Once the prophet or brethren have spoken, the thinking has been done.  Don't question it.
70.       When someone leaves the church, it is God's way of separating the wheat (good mormons) from the chaff (bad, evil apostates)
71.       Jesus was supposed to come in the year 2000, that is until he didn't
72.       God is a resurrected, extra terrestrial, exalted human male who lives on a planet near a star called Kolob.  See Book of Abraham, chapter 3 in Pearl of Great Price
73.       Even though Jesus had a beard, we aren't allowed to have facial hair while attending the Lord's University, BYU, and are discouraged or flat out not allowed to have facial hair in high up leadership positions, despite early leaders all having beards
74.       The LDS Temple questions somewhat encourage the shunning or disassociating with anyone who is anti, apostate, or against the church.  This may include family members, close relatives or best friends if they end up leaving the church.
75.       The "Inspired" Joseph Smith translation of the bible is more correct than the KJV
76.       Joseph Smith's money digging and glass looking were actually God's way of preparing him for his role as a prophet and revelator.
77.       Our dead relatives and angel friends can see us when we sin, and so even when alone, it is not safe to masturbate or do anything "bad".
78.       The Holy Ghost goes to bed at midnight, so all dates, sleepovers, or other activities by youth or single people need to end by midnight or else you won't have protection or guidance against the temptations of the devil
79.       Hoard enough food, water and fuel to survive 3-12 months or more
80.       Women must wear modest clothing that extends to the floor while kneeling down (shorts, skirts etc) and that covers the shoulders and upper arms, no revealing of the midrift, no bikini swim suits, no tank tops, no spaghetti straps etc
81.       Satan's real name in the Pre-existence is Lucifer, even though that name is only used once in the Old Testament
82.       The ancient Jews were the only people who would kill Christ and therefore the most wicked people in the universe
83.       So long as the US/America's stay righteous, aka, primarily Christian and God fearing, they will not be attacked by foreign powers or enemies (stems from the tradition laid out in the Book of Mormon that righteousness equals protection from enemies by God etc).
84.       The Earth is a living entity that must also go through ordinances, death and exaltation.  The Flood of Noah was the Earth's baptism.  The fire and burning at the 2nd coming will be the baptism by fire and immediately after, exaltation to a perfect sphere of glass
85.       The Earth was once in orbit around Kolob, but was expelled when Adam fell from the Garden of Eden.  It will again return to that orbit after the millennium.
86.       If you don't make it to the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom, you will be gender-less in the after life.  No sex or sex urges for you in the Terrestrial and Telestial kingdoms.
87.       When people leave the church and can't leave it alone (despite being psychologically and emotionally damaged by it), it is called "kicking against the pricks", and is fulfillment of prophesy.
88.       There are people living on the moon.  LINK They dress much like Quakers and they are tall, many standing seven feet tall or more.  One day we will send missionaries to teach them the gospel.  There are also people living on the sun. Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 217
89.       Brigham Young (2nd LDS prophet) taught that Adam was the literal God of the Earth and Earth's family
90.       If you serve valiantly as a missionary, you'll be blessed with a beautiful and righteous spouse when you return
91.       If you hold your right arm to the square and invoke the power of the priesthood, you can cast out devils, divert floods and lava flows, and baptize others
92.       Women covenant in the temple to "observe and  keep the law of the Lord and hearken unto the counsel of your husband as he hearkens unto the counsel of the Father"
93.       All covenant in the temple "to sacrifice all that we possess, even our own lives if necessary, in sustaining and defending the Kingdom of God"
94.       We covenant to "avoid all lightmindedness, loud laughter, evil speaking of the Lord's anointed, the taking of the name of God in vain, and every other unholy and impure practice"
95.       More, we covenant in temples to "accept the Law of Consecration as contained in theDoctrine and Covenants, in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion"
96.       Garments represent the garment God/Jesus made and gave to Adam when he discovered his nakedness in the Garden of Eden
97.       Women are most valued when in the home, rearing children and taking care of domestic affairs (laundry, dishes, house cleaning, etc)
98.       In the temple marriage covenant/ceremony, women "give [themselves] to [their husband] to be his lawful and wedded wife" and men "receive her unto [himself] to be [his] lawful and wedded wife for time and all eternity"
99.       If a widow remarries a man for time only, and bears him children, those children will belong to her first and sealed husband in the eternities
100.     Before a woman can remarry in the temple for eternity, she must first get a temple sealing annulment, which can only come at the approval of the First Presidency, and will likely not be allowed if the first husband is deceased
101.     Women were at one point allowed to give blessings by the laying on of hands, but that practice was ended when they were found to be more successful at healing than the priesthood holding men
 
 
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_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 11 November 2013 05:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Even Donnie Osmond has his own smaller list

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-Nothing beats a failure like a try 
_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 11 November 2013 06:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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The presenter looks oddly like a mix between Jason Batemen and Paul Rudd. I wish they had picked more reputable people to talk about Joseph Smith's history, though. The witch sister "scrying" experts are too easily dismissed.
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Posted: 11 November 2013 06:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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smithandthewestons:
The presenter looks oddly like a mix between Jason Batemen and Paul Rudd. I wish they had picked more reputable people to talk about Joseph Smith's history, though. The witch sister "scrying" experts are too easily dismissed.
 
That's a good  call  but if a neverMo might have an otherwise semi-intelligent LDS friend, these small and various details may go a long way in helping to add a great deal of, some type of understanding to maybe an almost nearly impossible situation.
 
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Posted: 12 November 2013 04:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
finex
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I didn't know before watching the video on the OP how big part the mormons had in Las Vegas becoming the "nest of sin" as it is nowadays. 

   


Posted: 12 November 2013 07:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
former victim
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What do you mean by "had"? They still are...check out where the rental agreement for culinary water for the Southern Nevada Water District comes from.. 

   


            
 
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Sister Okasaki speaks evil of The Lord’s Anonited  
Posted: 05 November 2013 03:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Nephi
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Quote
-
In contrast, in 1995 when “The Family: A Proclamation to the World” was written, the Relief Society presidency was asked to come to a meeting. We did, and they read this proclamation. It was all finished. The only question was whether they should present it at the priesthood meeting or at the Relief Society meeting. It didn’t matter to me where it was presented. What I wanted to know was, “How come we weren’t consulted?”
Greg Prince: You didn’t even know it was in the works?
Chieko Okazaki: No. They just asked us which meeting to present it in, and we said, “Whatever President Hinckley decides is fine with us.” He decided to do it at the Relief Society meeting. The apostle who was our liaison said, “Isn’t it wonderful that he made the choice to present it at the Relief Society meeting?” Well, that was fine, but as I read it I thought that we could have made a few changes in it.
 
http://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V45N01_CO.pdf
 
---------
 
Looks as if someone is 'speaking evil of The Lord's Anointed' - even tho what she says is true. Could it be she secretly wants the Priesthood?
 
This stuff happens when one relies on Lawyers to write "The Lord's Revelation" on the family.
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Posted: 06 November 2013 03:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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I think it was more of a lack of consultation and the saying that half of the church (women) don't have a voice and they were expected to be giddy about what had been written and that the only comment they were to have was to be "cheer leaders" for the boys.
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http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-31-honesty?lang=eng


   


Posted: 06 November 2013 07:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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baneberry:
I think it was more of a lack of consultation and the saying that half of the church (women) don't have a voice and they were expected to be giddy about what had been written and that the only comment they were to have was to be "cheer leaders" for the boys.
 
 Great way to describe it baneberry.  That pretty well sums up the role of women in the church.
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Posted: 06 November 2013 08:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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limes
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Always did like her so much.  Interesting that the Relief Society general board was treated about the same way as local RS presidencies were.  Informed but not consulted.  

   


Posted: 06 November 2013 08:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Interesting that she realized she was being shuffled to the back of the bus. Notice she didn't do a whoopie because the brethren in their infinite wisdom chose to deliver that tome in the Relief Society all church meeting. She wasn't thrilled with that delicious privilege.
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Posted: 06 November 2013 10:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
quietlydifferent
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You mean women aren't really equal partners in the church!? Seriously though, this reminds me of an argument I had with my ex once where she tried to claim that RS leadership had actual power/authority in TSCC. I was well on my way out at the time and brought up the fact that all power/authority to do anything with the doctrine, the finances and pretty much all the administrative stuff was held by the priesthood leadership and any and all authority/power the RS had came from the menfolk. This was something that bothered me. I think women have every bit as much right to be in important leadership positions as men. I don't like the idea of women as second class behind men. I think equal rights for women is one of the best things that could ever happen to men if we would only think about it. 

   


Posted: 07 November 2013 02:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Lord of Darkness
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Great quote.  She didn't know about it; never saw a draft; never asked her opinion; thought it could have been better. 
 
But if you listen to Sheri Dew, Mormon women couldn't have it any better. 
 
It's called Stockholm Syndrome.
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Posted: 07 November 2013 03:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
Celestial Wedgie
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limes:
Always did like her so much.  Interesting that the Relief Society general board was treated about the same way as local RS presidencies were.  
 
Informed but not consulted. 
  You know, that might make for a good bumper sticker:
 
Relief Society:
Informed But Not Consulted
 


   


            
 
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Sheri Dew Speech on LDS Living  
Posted: 06 November 2013 02:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Does she really believe all this stuff?
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Posted: 06 November 2013 02:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Peter Priestcraft
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kinderhooker:
Does she really believe all this stuff?
 
 She believes whatever she is told to believe.


   


Posted: 06 November 2013 05:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Probably the happiest people in the world are those who know that what they are told to believe, is true. 

   


Posted: 06 November 2013 06:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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what a complete load of bulls##t.
 
She is right. they do all those things... but only because men call them to do so. How ####### patronizing.


   


Posted: 06 November 2013 09:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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kinderhooker
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Sheri Dew is a woman so unlike other women in the Church—unmarried, childless, in worldwide leadership positions, beholden to the GAs, former director of Deseret Book, etc.—that her view of the role of women in the Church is completely distorted, and would be irrelevant if the rest of the women understood their individual worth in the eyes of the Church. Sheri Dew and other women who gain opportunity or access through the Church are the exception, not the rule.
 
The foundation of the Relief Society as proof that women were valued? Please! That was all about making Emma feel important and valued while Joseph was cheating on her with his plural "wives", who also happened to be Emma's counselors in the Relief Society Presidency. It's a particularly cruel irony that as Emma tried to use the Relief Society to campaign against polygamy, the two women who had been installed by Joseph to work most closely with her were secretly sleeping with her husband. Joseph was vile.
 
Women participate in ordinances of a priesthood character in the temple? So what. The endowment was established to put women under oath to obey their husbands, and to participate in polygamy if asked to do so, and to lie about it publicly. The temple is nothing good or empowering for women or men.
 
The biggest issue of all, of course, is that the Church doesn't value people as anything more than fodder for the machine. 
 
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“And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations.” Alma 37:3


   


Posted: 07 November 2013 06:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Yes Khook, she is unlike all other Mormon women.  The whole Sheri Dew thing is so crazy.  The church sends a Dew to inspire Mormon women when she has nothing in common with them......and the women seem to eat it up.  Maybe the the Mormon women like her because she is as close as they can get to a role model that is a man.  I have always found something very creepy about the whole Sheri Dew thing.
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And you and I can begin again

200 More Miles
Cowboy Junkieshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SwJM5yohb0


   


Posted: 07 November 2013 10:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler:
Yes Khook, she is unlike all other Mormon women.  The whole Sheri Dew thing is so crazy.  The church sends a Dew to inspire Mormon women when she has nothing in common with them......and the women seem to eat it up.  Maybe the the Mormon women like her because she is as close as they can get to a role model that is a man.  I have always found something very creepy about the whole Sheri Dew thing.
 
No question. I remember working with Sherri Dew on the first series of animated book of mormon stories. We produced 4 for the church and Sherri oversaw their production. My partner was the cousin of Dallin Oaks and Dallin dated Sherri for awhile. I think he found her penis and that ended the relationship.
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Posted: 07 November 2013 02:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Lord of Darkness
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Seriously...at least she shaved her mustache for the video.  It's funny how she is so idolized by Mormon women when she has done everything the exact opposite of what is taught.
 
Married?  Nope.
Mother?  Nope.
Homemaker?  Nope.
 
Corporate beeeaattcccchhhh.  Affirmative.
 
Ordain Women are going to steamroll her into oblivion. 
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Is there really any “getting better” for some people?
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Broad daylight is the best antiseptic
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How do I develop a lifestyle out of Mormonism?
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The perfect excuse for polyandry
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New Essay = Polygamy
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   http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/38103/












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Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

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Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
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Native American DNA
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Sheri Dew…What LDS women get?  
Posted: 12 October 2013 11:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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My niece (by my former marriage) posted on FB a speech that Sheri Dew gave and was talking about how wonderful it is to be an LDS woman.
 
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/258886678553171153/ 
 
I had heard the name, but I really didn't know much about Sheri Dew until I checked on Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheri_Dew
 
I learned that she's not married, has never been married and has no children.
She's the CEO of Deseret Book and a Director for Bonneville International.
She was chosen as a counselor in the General Board of the Relief Society and was the first unmarried woman to ever be chosen as such.
 
Wow...sounds like the kind of woman who can really connect with other women. 
 
Years ago, my former wife and I were required to take a parenting class as a part of a tough love program for our middle daughter with the local sheriffs department. The very first class we met the instructor, a woman, and a Dr. of psychology who was running the program. My wife and I were unusual in that we were one of the few married couples in the class of about 50 or 60 parents most of whom were single moms.
 
This Dr. was suggesting that the "mostly single moms that were struggling financially" to take" time for yourself" to relieve some of the stress and was giving out ideas such as "going for a massage" at one of those "spa retreats".
 
Given the economic capacity of the group, it occurred to me to ask about the background of this Dr. She was married to another Dr. and had no children.
 
When she admitted to having no children, the entire group burst out into laughter. Cllearly, for all of her book learning she had no clue of what it meant to be a parent. 
 
Sheri said she's talked to "millions" of LDS women...somehow I doubt that.
How in the world could she know what's she's talking about?
 
The question that comes to mind for me is, "If being an LDS woman is so wonderful, (she mentioned that it's a real blessing to be a mother) why is Utah one of the top states for the use of prescription drugs for depression?"
 
"Without having any children of her own, or being married, what qualifies her to give out any advice related to marriage and being a parent?" 
 
With all due respect, in my opinion she doesn't know what she's talking about. 
 
 
 


   


Posted: 12 October 2013 11:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Sheri Dew, being a virtuous woman whose price is far above rubies (as long as she gives 10% of her rubies to the church), is worthy of the gifts of The Spirit™ so she is entitled to spout off about anything she wants.
 
Actually, the first time my mom ever heard Sheri Dew speak, knowing nothing about her, she said "She is not a mother." She just knew. There was an edge to her that hadn't been softened by motherhood.
 
The bible says a bishop must be the husband of one wife, because if he can't run his own family, how could he run a church? (1 Tim 3:1-5) If the church were to extend this counsel to others, i.e. Sheri Dew, what would her qualifications be? She was Prez Hinckley's biographer, so her post in the RS general presidency was a plum for her; a reward. No inspiriation whatsoever went into that calling. (Or any, for that matter) 
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Posted: 12 October 2013 01:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Life Rocks:
 
When she admitted to having no children, the entire group burst out into laughter. Cllearly, for all of her book learning she had no clue of what it meant to be a parent. 
 
Sheri said she's talked to "millions" of LDS women...somehow I doubt that.
How in the world could she know what's she's talking about?
 
"Without having any children of her own, or being married, what qualifies her to give out any advice related to marriage and being a parent?" 
 
With all due respect, in my opinion she doesn't know what she's talking about. 
 
 
 
 
    Since all three of the top dogs have never served a mission, how can they also know what they are talking about when extorting young men to serve the lard. I went. I struggled with a testimoney. I only liked one companion. I sat through 12 hour long zone meetings. And, I'm sure that the vast majority of missionaries would rather have been back home watching cartoons. 
 
   But it doesn't surprise me that they picked an unqualified person. It seems to be status quo for them.


   


Posted: 13 October 2013 08:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized:
Sheri Dew, being a virtuous woman whose price is far above rubies (as long as she gives 10% of her rubies to the church), is worthy of the gifts of The Spirit™ so she is entitled to spout off about anything she wants.
 
Actually, the first time my mom ever heard Sheri Dew speak, knowing nothing about her, she said "She is not a mother." She just knew. There was an edge to her that hadn't been softened by motherhood.
 
The bible says a bishop must be the husband of one wife, because if he can't run his own family, how could he run a church? (1 Tim 3:1-5) If the church were to extend this counsel to others, i.e. Sheri Dew, what would her qualifications be? She was Prez Hinckley's biographer, so her post in the RS general presidency was a plum for her; a reward. No inspiriation whatsoever went into that calling. (Or any, for that matter) 
 
 But 0% of her cherries
 
Hmmm....Sheri's cherries.  Wonder if any of the brethren pondered on that one.  Reminds me of Elizabeth 1 of England.
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Posted: 13 October 2013 12:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Posted: 13 October 2013 01:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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I saw that post on facebook and didn't bother to read because I was aware of her background. I rolled my eyes. If I want to know about business and the other things she's been doing for years I probably would have read it.
 


   


            
 
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What Would a Reformed Mormon Church Look Like?  
Posted: 26 February 2013 06:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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I just read an open letter that was posted where the writer accuses the leaders of the LDS Church of knowing that it is not true, but perpetuating the fraud for whatever reasons they have. It demands that they reform the church so that there is no more fraud. I was trying to imagine what such a reformed Mormon church would look like. My first thought was that there would no longer be a church and you would have a bunch of agnostics who separately do their own things on Sunday. But that shows my bias. Many people like belonging to a church, and many people believe in God. So let us suppose the church reformed, but did not disband, what would it be like?
If they got rid of the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price. If they stopped revering Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and all the other past and present prophets. If they got rid of the temple ceremonies, fast and testimony meeting, and a whole bunch of other stuff, what would be left?
A bunch of Puritans without the Calvinism who are more interested in salvation through works rather than salvation through faith? People who read the Kings James Version of the Bible rather than the New International Version because it is old fashioned? People with very quiet and subdued Sunday meetings without hand-clapping and guitars? People who follow the Word of Wisdom for scientific and heath-nut reasons rather than for religious reasons? People with a larger than average family size? People with Family Home Evening, home teaching/visiting teaching, geneology for a hobby, gardening and food storage survivalism, and Relief Society-style handicrafts as hobbies? People who don't watch R-rated movies? People who follow a dress code and dress in a rather formal and old fashioned manner? People who send pairs of missionaries in white shirts to Africa to spread Christianity and to do humanitarian good works? The temples would be open to the public and would be used for things like Sunday meetings and regional conferences?
I guess the idea of reforming the LDS church just sort of blew my mind. I am trying to visualize this.
In your opinion, what would the Mormon church be like if it reformed? 

   


Posted: 26 February 2013 06:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Compare the church of 1830 with the church of 1860, 1920, 1950, 1970 and today. (arbitrary intervals, by the way).
 
It is not the same church. God's one true church, the same God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever, sure changes his mind a lot.
 
The mormon church is undergoing CONSTANT reformation. I think they have too much at stake to give up any of the "standard works". But one day a woman will pray in conference. She might even get the priesthood. One day it will be OK to be gay, in a gay marriage even. They'll lose lots of members over that one, just as they did in 1978 when they did an about-face on blacks. They might even allow gay temple weddings, but they'd lose a lot more over that one. 
 
The RLDS gave up the BoM a few years ago and lost about half its membership. You can bet the LDS church took notice of that one. It won't happen.
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Posted: 27 February 2013 10:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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What would a reformed mormon church look like?  ...empty.  
 
This is just my view though.  Without the cult control, it really doesn't have much.  The busines ventures could still live on, and probably would but the part that is a "church" couldn't survive a reformation big enough to come completely clean about the past and transparent about the present dealings.
 
The fundamentalist groups would surely grow and gain a lot of support, though.
 
Just my thoughts for what they are worth. 
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Posted: 27 February 2013 12:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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A reformed church would essentially disband, liquidate their assets, apologize for being a pox on society, and give all the tithing back to their donators.
 
Any extra money should go to non religous ngo's to feed and clothe the needy.
 
Also - I'd like to see this letter :). 
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Posted: 27 February 2013 01:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Or, worse yet, it could reform itself into the FLDS. 

   


Posted: 27 February 2013 02:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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IMO, the main purpose of a religion is to make itself superfluous. It is a way station, and for many people a vital way station to help them get through the hardships of life. But when they have gotten through the bad parts, the next goal of the church is to help them become independent, rather than co-dependent. 

   


Posted: 27 February 2013 03:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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I recently posted this on another board discussing cult reformation:
 

I love when these threads appear as it's fun to see what folks think about possible revelatory changes that could plug the holes in the mormon dike and save it from its inevitable demise.
Talk about Pay Lay Ale, some of us have spent more than one late night at a pub where a whole bunch of exmos flowcharted out the consequences of various LDS reform changes and nearly all of the threads ended up as disasters for mormonism.
In most cases its just too late. Despite the lying and redacted websites there are just too many mormon official positions that are indefensible if changed. How would you like to be the TBM who has posted pages of anti-gay facebook rants when the next "revelation" allowing gay marriage appears?
However, thanks to the ALE, here were some of the top actual recommendations we thought had a prayer of a chance of actually helping the cult (not in order of importance or effectiveness):
1. Change the stupid marriage rule. A civil marriage followed by a temple sealing hurts no one and helps a whole lot.
2. Change the focus of missionaries. Some evidence of this is already apparent. Missionaries can perform humanitarian service or something like that. Honest leaders will concede that the whole point of missionary service is to drive home the cult hook and keep the missionary in the church. If that's true, who cares what they do out there? Have them do something other than offend the rest of the world.
3. Using Catholic Relief Services or many other christian humanitarian services as models, create an entire new major focus on service and relief. Instead of the embarrassingly tiny charity work that is performed now, mainly for the PR value, begin building a new LDS ethic that provides service to anyone and everyone as much as possible, for free and without strings. If such an ethic and such programs could ever actually become a major emphasis of mormonism, and over time begin to be an important part of its definition, it would be much easier for Holland or other GAs to say that despite the problems with history and doctrine, mormonism helps people and is worthy as a lifestyle and movement. For mormons to make these claims today is just funny of it weren't so pathetic. We thought LDS, Inc. could spend at least half a billion per year if they really wanted to (and if they did it would still be half what Catholic Relief Services spends BTW).
 
4. Along these lines work to decrease the emphasis on the church being "true" and increase the emphasis on the church being a trustworthy, ethical, and reliable lifestyle and good way to live one's life. Not, "it's good cause it's true," but, "it's good cause it works."
5. Also along the same lines, let women be the administrative and program heads of the humanitarian work. Re-launch the Relief Society except with huge resources and huge programs. Give women some real power and resources to wield in the world and at least a reason to feel proud.  Its not the deserved equality entorely, but it would be a good start.
 
6. Reformed YM and YW programs should play a major role working within the service paradigm. People LIKE to make a difference and to help others. They are willing to do this and willing to give money if it facilitates real service. The youth programs are dead -- the homophobic scouts and stupid domestic crafting and gestapo obedience activities are chiefly to blame. Give the youth something meaningful to be a part of.
There were others, but I was past my three pint memory limit and cannot remember.
In general, we thought that unless LDS, Inc. begins to tack away from foolish historical claims (including many biblical historical claims) and cult emphasis on impossible truths (much like a belief in Xenu), they cannot prevail over time.
For anyone educated, magical beliefs will continue to become less and less credible, and moroni and nephi and jesus will eventually end up being the Zeus and Thor and Neptune of the 22nd century.
Mormonism cannot survive on its own stupid truth claims and must evolve. It's leaders do not talk to god and cannot prophecy, see or reveal anything. Its historical claims and archeological impossibilities become more farcical everyday and will not survive as credible. The more evidence appears that the stupid truth claims of mormonism are false and the more mormons cling to them anyway by virtue of the "spirit", the more the epistemology of mormonism is shown to be false as well, revealing testimony as merely a psychological construct.
Only an evolution that brings real meaning into people's lives, that allows them to be a part of a proud and effective movement, that makes them proud to self-identify and associate themselves with it, and that provides a solid and defensible reason to continue to be a part of it will allow mormonism to thrive.
This was the furthest we got with it. What say ye?
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Posted: 27 February 2013 03:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Rodolfo:
I recently posted this on another board discussing cult reformation:
 
...snip... 
 
Only an evolution that brings real meaning into people's lives, that allows them to be a part of a proud and effective movement, that makes them proud to self-identify and associate themselves with it, and that provides a solid and indefensible reason to continue to be a part of it will allow mormonism to thrive.
This was the furthest we got with it. What say ye?
 
 Well put. 
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Posted: 27 February 2013 03:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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It would look like the former RLDS church which is now non-existent because it gave up on being 'a peculiar people'. 
The truth is common property. You can't sell it. In order to distinguish yourself from 'others' you have to teach things that are absurd, which is what distinguishes you.
It's just primative old tribalism and group thinking at work.  
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Posted: 01 March 2013 12:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Thanks Heretic,
 
I am still a big believer in change, in repentence etc.  
 
I long for and often envision and "transformation".   Here are my fantasies:
 
 
The Church would rest on  TRUTH for AUTHORITY, not rely on AUTHORITY for truth.
-   from the teaching of Lucrecia Mott
 
Jesus Christ would be the foundation, the "Author and Finisher of our faith"
 
Joseph Smith would be recognized as a mortal man with great talents and abilities, but
also with great weaknesses and even a capacity for sin.  JS would be like unto King David of Old, teasured for all of his eloquent teachings, but none-the-less acknowledged as a man with moral failings, in need of repentance.   When we accept that even the strongest and greatest among us can fail, we become humble and that is where the Spirit of God begins to grow within us.
 
We would start ministering unto the LIVING and cease to perform our ministeries unto the DEAD.   Christ is the God of the Living, not the God of the dead.  We would stop the "endless geneologies", the baptism, endowment and other ordinances for the dead.   We would focus on the living.
 
We would OPEN the Temples and perform our sacraments before men.   Marriages would be performed in front of the Mother and Father of the Bride and Groom, even if those individuals didn't have valid Temple Recommends.   We would HONOR our Fathers and our Mothers.   I once attended a Christian Wedding were the Minister announced that the ceremony could not begin until the mothers of the bride and groom were seated in the front row.   It was such an act of honor, of reverence and of respect.   It acknowledged the women who brought forth the bride and groom and spent two decades raising them. It united not just the bride and groom, but two families (in-laws) in a sacred union.
I had never felt that strong of a Spirit in the LDS Temple - ever.
 
Financial transparency and the light of day:
 
  The LDS Church would open up the books for all to see.   No more secrecy.     I have been amazed at how certain faiths, such as the Quakers openly report their financial records.   It builds so much trust.   It is an example for husbands and wives to set together and discuss family finances  openly.   It is like Christ being the Husband and the Church being the wife, sharing financial responsibility and accountability builds so much faith and trust.
 
The LDS Church would forever stop the "Politics of Oppression".   They would STOP opposing Equal Rights for women, Civil Rights for minorities (abandon the John Birch Society) and Equal Rights for other minority groups.    They would finally heed the Savior's admonition to, "esteem thy brother as thyself".
 
 
We would STOP commericalizing the Church.   The Gosple of Jesus Christ isn't a "brand"  with "market shares"  that can increase with Madison Avenue marketing.   We teach by example, but our works shall they know us.
 
 


   


Posted: 01 March 2013 12:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
lostandfound
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Rodolfo:
I recently posted this on another board discussing cult reformation:
 

I love when these threads appear as it's fun to see what folks think about possible revelatory changes that could plug the holes in the mormon dike and save it from its inevitable demise.
Talk about Pay Lay Ale, some of us have spent more than one late night at a pub where a whole bunch of exmos flowcharted out the consequences of various LDS reform changes and nearly all of the threads ended up as disasters for mormonism.
In most cases its just too late. Despite the lying and redacted websites there are just too many mormon official positions that are indefensible if changed. How would you like to be the TBM who has posted pages of anti-gay facebook rants when the next "revelation" allowing gay marriage appears?
However, thanks to the ALE, here were some of the top actual recommendations we thought had a prayer of a chance of actually helping the cult (not in order of importance or effectiveness):
1. Change the stupid marriage rule. A civil marriage followed by a temple sealing hurts no one and helps a whole lot.
2. Change the focus of missionaries. Some evidence of this is already apparent. Missionaries can perform humanitarian service or something like that. Honest leaders will concede that the whole point of missionary service is to drive home the cult hook and keep the missionary in the church. If that's true, who cares what they do out there? Have them do something other than offend the rest of the world.
3. Using Catholic Relief Services or many other christian humanitarian services as models, create an entire new major focus on service and relief. Instead of the embarrassingly tiny charity work that is performed now, mainly for the PR value, begin building a new LDS ethic that provides service to anyone and everyone as much as possible, for free and without strings. If such an ethic and such programs could ever actually become a major emphasis of mormonism, and over time begin to be an important part of its definition, it would be much easier for Holland or other GAs to say that despite the problems with history and doctrine, mormonism helps people and is worthy as a lifestyle and movement. For mormons to make these claims today is just funny of it weren't so pathetic. We thought LDS, Inc. could spend at least half a billion per year if they really wanted to (and if they did it would still be half what Catholic Relief Services spends BTW).
 
4. Along these lines work to decrease the emphasis on the church being "true" and increase the emphasis on the church being a trustworthy, ethical, and reliable lifestyle and good way to live one's life. Not, "it's good cause it's true," but, "it's good cause it works."
5. Also along the same lines, let women be the administrative and program heads of the humanitarian work. Re-launch the Relief Society except with huge resources and huge programs. Give women some real power and resources to wield in the world and at least a reason to feel proud.  Its not the deserved equality entorely, but it would be a good start.
 
6. Reformed YM and YW programs should play a major role working within the service paradigm. People LIKE to make a difference and to help others. They are willing to do this and willing to give money if it facilitates real service. The youth programs are dead -- the homophobic scouts and stupid domestic crafting and gestapo obedience activities are chiefly to blame. Give the youth something meaningful to be a part of.
There were others, but I was past my three pint memory limit and cannot remember.
In general, we thought that unless LDS, Inc. begins to tack away from foolish historical claims (including many biblical historical claims) and cult emphasis on impossible truths (much like a belief in Xenu), they cannot prevail over time.
For anyone educated, magical beliefs will continue to become less and less credible, and moroni and nephi and jesus will eventually end up being the Zeus and Thor and Neptune of the 22nd century.
Mormonism cannot survive on its own stupid truth claims and must evolve. It's leaders do not talk to god and cannot prophecy, see or reveal anything. Its historical claims and archeological impossibilities become more farcical everyday and will not survive as credible. The more evidence appears that the stupid truth claims of mormonism are false and the more mormons cling to them anyway by virtue of the "spirit", the more the epistemology of mormonism is shown to be false as well, revealing testimony as merely a psychological construct.
Only an evolution that brings real meaning into people's lives, that allows them to be a part of a proud and effective movement, that makes them proud to self-identify and associate themselves with it, and that provides a solid and defensible reason to continue to be a part of it will allow mormonism to thrive.
This was the furthest we got with it. What say ye?
 
 Many of my ideas mirror yours.   I hope that others feel the same way.
 


   


Posted: 07 October 2013 01:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
Fred W. Anson
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Some have suggested that it would look like the Community of Christ - which reformed itself out of the RLDS church but didn't shed the Book of Mormon or Doctrine & Covenants as unique scripture. In fact, they're still adding to D&C.
 
Others have suggested that it would just be another Protestant Denomination IF it sheds it's unique scripture - and that's either good or bad depending on your perspective.
 
Others have suggested that reform will just lead to a shuttered institution.
 
Candidly, I don't know either - but it's an interesting topic to discuss, so thanks for bringing it up.
 
Finally, I think that the "open letter" you're referring to may be the Mormon Reformation Day 95 LDS Theses project that I was a part of and am now the front man for an October 31st internet and door posting campaign (see http://MormonReformationDay2013.org ).
 
If so, I can tell you that there was a diversity of opinion there too - and the theses development group ranged from the, "Reformation not Destruction" club to the "Total Destruction" club.  And it was primarily Mormon (although certainly not TBM) and ExMormon.
 
It was an interesting group - and one that's now been a rotating roster over 3-years now. However, the one thing that we agreed on was that the organization will probably continue to exist in some form or fashion (even the Total Destruction club finally resigned themselves to this) and that if it addressed the issues that we were compiled into what became ultimately became the 95 LDS Theses it would be a better, less harmful institution.
 
So in that light, I hope that you all will join us in making your voices heard on October 31st whether you use our 95 LDS Theses or do your own.
 
Regardless of what ultimately happens it will be, no doubt, be interesting to watch.
 
Thanks.


   


Posted: 07 October 2013 03:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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C'mon, get real!  If TSCC is allowed to 'reform' by the only 15 peope who can reform it, the first thing they'd make sure of was keeping their jobs.  So they'd research  the heck out of each and every change, and they start slow and easy.  
 
But here are the two changes that would keep the pews filled:
 
1.  turn the WoW back into a suggestion.  You could stagger into your TR interview, drunk on your ass, answer all the other questions correctly, blow smoke in the Bishop's face, and walk out with your TR.  It's only that tithing question that really counts with the COB.
 
2.  Adultery remains a no-no, but sex outside of marriage, sex when you haven't made any promises, is okay.  That would take the testosterone out of the rush for quick marriages, and we'd all breathe a sigh of relief.  I still would have gotten married, eventually, and she and I would have done so for reasons that would have boosted the odds the marriage would succeed. 
 
MIA would sure be a lot more fun!!!   


   


Posted: 07 October 2013 05:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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   Since the topic of reform came up I would like to add a couple of ideas. The church would still need some money for the top dogs to maintain their perks. But make it voluntary. Install a built-in lottery system for those who donate. Tip it slightly in favor of the house so that they get a small cut, then distribute the rest as winnings to those who made it all possible.
 
   While on money, bring back the concept of pre-paid sinning. You wanna indulge a little? Gonna cost ya. If you don't have any money but still wanna smoke a doobie, clean a toilet or two. Maybe even get a SIN RECOMMEND from the bishop that's good for a whole year.
 
  


   


Posted: 07 October 2013 08:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Any reforms, no matter how substantial, will not change the fact that the church is one big lie. Put a coat of paint on a cancer tumor. It's still a cancer tumor. 

   


Posted: 07 October 2013 08:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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I have a lot of respect for how the RLDS church tried to do this. They're now the Community of Christ and they're smaller and less-weird compared to other churches. But the LDS church has no respect for them for denying the mormony parts and neither do the mainstream Christian churches because they came from the heathen Mormon background. You can't win. I'd love it if the church came clean and made it less constrictive and miserable to be part of it, but that seems to be what makes faiths thrive. People like to deny themselves and sacrifice and feel superior for it. Feeling persecuted like the pioneers makes them feel like they're really onto the truth because satan is working so hard against them, etc. I used to feel the same. 

   


Posted: 07 October 2013 10:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
Fred W. Anson
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I forgot to mention that in addition to the RLDS/Community of Christ I wrote about two other groups that reformed in this Mormon Expression article: http://mormonexpression.com/blogs/2011/10/20/can-a-mind-control-cult-reform-itself
 
And in the interest of full disclosure, I was in one of the groups, The Shepherding Movement, from 1976-1986. They reformed in 1989. The other group, The Worldwide Church of God, I was never involved with.  So I've never been in the middle of one of these but I've heard some of the stories from what went down in The Shepherding Movement. 
 
All this to say, that we have a few groups that have successfully made the transition - perhaps that's why I'm not without hope in regard to the LdS Church. However, as I concluded in the article:
 
"So while the answer to the original question, “Can a Mind Control Cult reform itself?” may be yes, it is never easy, painless, or smooth – and there’s always fall out."
 
This won't be easy for the LdS Church but IMO, it IS possible!


   


Posted: 08 October 2013 03:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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To me, asking the church to "reform" feels a little like trying to reform Krispy Kreme by demanding they quit filling all their products with sugar and fat that promote ill health. Sure, you could replace the donuts with salads, but at that point they would no longer be Krispy Kreme.
 
In a similar sense, the criticisms I have of TSCC cannot be reformed away.
 
I agree with President Hinckley when he said that either the church was what it claimed or it was a fraud. Well, if the church is what it claims, and it is directly run by a resurrected deity through his hand-chosen prophets on earth, then it does not need "reform". If it is a fraud, then no amount of "reform" can make it true. The most we can hope for is to make it less offensive (which is perhaps the major goal of this movement) but I really don't see the point.
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Posted: 08 October 2013 07:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
Fred W. Anson
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thNephite:
The most we can hope for is to make it less offensive (which is perhaps the major goal of this movement) but I really don't see the point.

Actually, I explained that in a prior post:
"It [the 95 LDS Theses development team] was an interesting group - and one that's now been a rotating roster over 3-years now. However, the one thing that we agreed on was that the organization will probably continue to exist in some form or fashion (even the Total Destruction club finally resigned themselves to this) and that if it addressed the issues that we were compiled into what became ultimately became the 95 LDS Theses it would be a better, less harmful institution."
The minimum goal that we're hoping to achieve it to make it less harmful.  I suppose that would make it less offensive as a by-product but that's not really a stated objective.
Or as we put it on the current campaign's FAQ page:
Q: I would really like to know your vision of what the post 95 LDS Theses church would be like.
A: The real question is what would YOU like a post 95 LDS Theses Church to look and be like?
Everyone who’s been involved and will be involved in this project would answer that question differently. And while we may agree on points we disagree on others. However, the one thing that we all agree on is that reform is needed.
 
- and -
Q: Why are you trying to reform something that’s so broken that it can never be reformed?
A: We’re not quite that cynical – we still see great potential and promise in the LDS Church.
However, right now there are issues keeping the LDS Church from reaching it’s full potential as a force for good in the earth. And we think that taking action on the issues addressed in the 95 LDS Theses would be a good start in that direction.
(see  http://mormonreformationday2013.wordpress.com/faq/ )
I hope that this helps clarify a bit.  
 


   


Posted: 09 October 2013 04:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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Fred W. Anson:
thNephite:
The most we can hope for is to make it less offensive (which is perhaps the major goal of this movement) but I really don't see the point.

Actually, I explained that in a prior post:

 
 
Actually, with respect, these poorly-written Q+As you keep cutting and pasting do not respond to the "why reform a false organization" points 4thNephite and others have raised.
 
Let's cut to the chase.  Do you believe that god and jesus exist and that they appeared to Joseph Smith and commanded him to start the church?  Yes or no?  As someone who answers that question "no," I see zero point to your efforts to "reform" the church.  I also don't see the point if you answer that question "yes." 


   


Posted: 09 October 2013 06:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized:
  
It is not the same church. God's one true church, the same God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever, sure changes his mind a lot.
   
 
 Don't forget that the forever unchanging God was also once an ordinary man like us.


   


Posted: 09 October 2013 08:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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Q: "What Would a Reformed Mormon Church Look Like?"
 
A: A historical curiosity.

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Posted: 09 October 2013 08:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized:
Compare the church of 1830 with the church of 1860, 1920, 1950, 1970 and today. (arbitrary intervals, by the way).
 
It is not the same church. God's one true church, the same God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever, sure changes his mind a lot.
 
The mormon church is undergoing CONSTANT reformation. I think they have too much at stake to give up any of the "standard works". But one day a woman will pray in conference. She might even get the priesthood. One day it will be OK to be gay, in a gay marriage even. They'll lose lots of members over that one, just as they did in 1978 when they did an about-face on blacks. They might even allow gay temple weddings, but they'd lose a lot more over that one. 
 
The RLDS gave up the BoM a few years ago and lost about half its membership. You can bet the LDS church took notice of that one. It won't happen.
 
Holy shit! I must have had The Spirit of Prophecy™ back in February.
 
But I think I lost it. I called for the Rays to win last night. Damn.  
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Posted: 09 October 2013 10:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
Fred W. Anson
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Klatu:
Let's cut to the chase.  Do you believe that god and jesus exist and that they appeared to Joseph Smith and commanded him to start the church?  Yes or no?  As someone who answers that question "no," I see zero point to your efforts to "reform" the church.  I also don't see the point if you answer that question "yes." 
 
Again, this isn't MY project it's OUR project - I'm just the front man for the initiative nothing more.  So I would appreciate it if you would depersonalize your replies - I'm not the issue here, the movement involves a large and diverse group of good people. If you don't like me, fine, but let's talk about the issues not the personalities shall we?
That said, my answer to your question is, "No".  I'm a NeverMo with Mormon friends and family and I would like to see them in a better, less harmful church.  And my stance if that if it doesn't reform it needs to end because it's just not a healthy place right now.
Others on the team would answer, "Yes", because they're still Mormon but believe that the modern church can be a force for good if it reforms.  
 
Others are Shadow Mormons who would answer, "No" and echo my sentiments.  
 
Still others, are ExMormons very much in the "Total Destruction" club who are willing to complement their preferred agenda with a "stop gap" or "baby step" initiative to change the organization for the better for the sake of their friends and family members who will most likely never leave the LDS Church.
So this isn't a bifurcated question, it's nuanced.  
 
And the bottom line is this: The LDS Church is most likely going to continue to exist in some form, period - it's got a 183-year track record there.  Regardless of whether the LDS Church is "true" or not, I think we can all agree that change is needed. 
 
So are we going to try to influence it to be better or just let it maintain the status quo and continue to hurt people?
I'm choosing the former. 
 
Finally, I haven't engaged in slurs or personal attacks in engaging here, I would appreciate the same courtesy from others. If one don't like my answers that's fine. However, to be harsh and insulting in one's replies is altogether something else.
 
Thanks. 



   


Posted: 09 October 2013 10:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
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What is nuanced again?
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Posted: 09 October 2013 12:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
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Fred W. Anson:
Klatu:
Let's cut to the chase.  Do you believe that god and jesus exist and that they appeared to Joseph Smith and commanded him to start the church?  Yes or no?  As someone who answers that question "no," I see zero point to your efforts to "reform" the church.  I also don't see the point if you answer that question "yes." 
 
Again, this isn't MY project it's OUR project - I'm just the front man for the initiative nothing more.  So I would appreciate it if you would depersonalize your replies - I'm not the issue here, the movement involves a large and diverse group of good people. If you don't like me, fine, but let's talk about the issues not the personalities shall we?
That said, my answer to your question is, "No".  I'm a NeverMo with Mormon friends and family and I would like to see them in a better, less harmful church.  And my stance if that if it doesn't reform it needs to end because it's just not a healthy place right now.
Others on the team would answer, "Yes", because they're still Mormon but believe that the modern church can be a force for good if it reforms.  
 
Others are Shadow Mormons who would answer, "No" and echo my sentiments.  
 
Still others, are ExMormons very much in the "Total Destruction" club who are willing to complement their preferred agenda with a "stop gap" or "baby step" initiative to change the organization for the better for the sake of their friends and family members who will most likely never leave the LDS Church.
So this isn't a bifurcated question, it's nuanced.  
 
And the bottom line is this: The LDS Church is most likely going to continue to exist in some form, period - it's got a 183-year track record there.  Regardless of whether the LDS Church is "true" or not, I think we can all agree that change is needed. 
 
So are we going to try to influence it to be better or just let it maintain the status quo and continue to hurt people?
I'm choosing the former. 
 
Finally, I haven't engaged in slurs or personal attacks in engaging here, I would appreciate the same courtesy from others. If one don't like my answers that's fine. However, to be harsh and insulting in one's replies is altogether something else.
 
Thanks. 

 
I don't see a personal attack here, just a challenge to what appears to be faulty logic. I completely agree. How can you "fix" a religion that was fabricated by an evil man, and built on lies? Scrub all that out of it, and what do you have left?
 
Old log cabins had a dirt floor. You could sweep all you want, but you still have a dirt floor.
 
Should we reform the Nazi party as well?
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Posted: 09 October 2013 01:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]   

   
 
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Fred W. Anson:
Klatu:
Let's cut to the chase.  Do you believe that god and jesus exist and that they appeared to Joseph Smith and commanded him to start the church?  Yes or no?  As someone who answers that question "no," I see zero point to your efforts to "reform" the church.  I also don't see the point if you answer that question "yes." 
 
Again, this isn't MY project it's OUR project - I'm just the front man for the initiative nothing more.  So I would appreciate it if you would depersonalize your replies - I'm not the issue here, the movement involves a large and diverse group of good people. If you don't like me, fine, but let's talk about the issues not the personalities shall we?
That said, my answer to your question is, "No".  I'm a NeverMo with Mormon friends and family and I would like to see them in a better, less harmful church.  And my stance if that if it doesn't reform it needs to end because it's just not a healthy place right now.
Others on the team would answer, "Yes", because they're still Mormon but believe that the modern church can be a force for good if it reforms.  
 
Others are Shadow Mormons who would answer, "No" and echo my sentiments.  
 
Still others, are ExMormons very much in the "Total Destruction" club who are willing to complement their preferred agenda with a "stop gap" or "baby step" initiative to change the organization for the better for the sake of their friends and family members who will most likely never leave the LDS Church.
So this isn't a bifurcated question, it's nuanced.  
 
And the bottom line is this: The LDS Church is most likely going to continue to exist in some form, period - it's got a 183-year track record there.  Regardless of whether the LDS Church is "true" or not, I think we can all agree that change is needed. 
 
So are we going to try to influence it to be better or just let it maintain the status quo and continue to hurt people?
I'm choosing the former. 
 
Finally, I haven't engaged in slurs or personal attacks in engaging here, I would appreciate the same courtesy from others. If one don't like my answers that's fine. However, to be harsh and insulting in one's replies is altogether something else.
 
Thanks. 

I would love to see the mormon church fold up its tents and go away forever.  But realistically, that is not going to happen anytime soon. 
So in the meantime, what about the people who are trapped in the church, for whatever reason?  Young people who are stuck because they live with parents who force them to go, or spouses who are threatened with losing their children if they don't play along, or anyone who has been indoctrinated for so long and so deeply that they can't see the way out? 
For these people and others, I see some merit in Fred's statement.  Yes, when you take away all the uniquely mormon aspects from the mormon church, you are left with a generic church or a social club.  But is that so bad? 
 
At least it would be a generic church that doesn't drive GLBT youth to suicide.  At least it would be a generic church that doesn't teach women that they are less than men.  At least it would be a church that does not heap unhealthy guilt on normal sexual activity.  At least it would be a club where single people have as much worth as married people.  At least it would be a club that is not so arrogant as to think they are the only club in town with value.  At least it would be a club that doesn't try to impose its 'morals' on everyone else. 
The day the mormon church withers up and dies, I will shed no tears.  To me that's the ideal outcome.  In the meantime, for those who can't get out, I'd rather see them in a harmless generic religious/social club than what they're in now.  If people hope to reform it from within, I say go for it.  Don't make the perfect the enemy of the good.
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Posted: 09 October 2013 02:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]   

   
 
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If you take away the things that make the mormon church unique, it will cease to exist. It's those unique things which appeal to a few people, are tolerable by a few, and enfuriating to a few, which enables to keep the church chugging along. For those it appeals to, and to the vast majority of active mormons who just go along with it because it's all they know, if you took it away their reason for attending would also slip away.
 
The things which make any religion unique are pretty much the same as what makes any franchised establishment unique. McDonald's has the Big Mac, Burger King (Hungry Jack's in Australia) has the Whopper, Wendy's has the Baconator. Once you get past that, it's just freakin' hamburgers. Same with churches. Take away unique doctrines and what do you have?
 
The mormons have grabbed their corner of the market by instituting weird-ass doctrines that others laugh at. Ditto the JWs, 7th Day Adventists, Christian Science and many more. I think what sets mormonism apart is that their specific doctrines and pratices are so out there, people grasp on to them, but to the detriment of the basic generic Christian doctrines. I remember sitting in the temple once, weirded out as usual, and the thought came to me "This is so different, so totally removed from what other churches practice, that it MUST be true!" That's the type of mindset mormonism relies on. Take the weirdness away, and they're no different than methodists or episcopalians.
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Posted: 09 October 2013 02:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]   

   
 
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I agree the ideals behind your thinking Dave, and Fred's. But it just seems to me that real reform would take so much out of what's there now, there wouldn't be any practical structure left to build on. It might be easier to start with something new?
 
Does the reform include being completely honest to all members about all the reasons for which we leave the church? How many people do you really think will keep attending if the leadership really came clean? 10%? 5%? Or do the leaders of the reformation "only let on a little bit" of the damaging historical truth? If so, are they any better than the liars who engineer the current cover-up? Are we to expect members of the reformed church to accept some amount of historical dishonesty?
 
How can you pull out the foundation pieces without the whole house of cards coming down?
 
Let's look at the Book of Mormon. Do you keep teaching from it as it is? Or do you reform it to be more realistic? What do you keep? First we take out the parts that were obviously copied from the KJV. Then we take out the parts that are too fantastical to be believed in a modern world. Then we take out the parts that are offensive or racist. Now you have a 44 page collection of allegories.
 
How about the priesthood leadership structure? First we have to admit that God was obvioulsy not in charge of the creation of the church. Then we have to admit that the whole "Prophet" thing was just made up. So when that concept goes, so does the "Prophpet, Seer, and Revelator" title. If that falls, then the whole priesthood authority falls. Then who runs the church? Will they start to vote in leaders? Campaign for leadership positions? Politics and platforms?
 
What about tithing? Should we reform that and admit that it never was a commandment from god? Or do the members of the new church keep paying? If the tithing goes, how does the infrastructure run?
 
And the temples and ordinances? If you don't believe in the priesthood authority, then what happens to all that? Is there any reason to keep attending the temple and worshipping in that creepy way?
 
If the church is to reform and truly apologize on things like gay rights, equal rights for women, and racism, it has to go right to the roots and admit that it was completely wrong on those issues all along. By doing so, they completely undermine the whole "one true church" concept, the whole priesthood authority, and the reality of the Book of Mormon. The only other option is to blame god for being wrong the whole time. What kind of incompetent god is that if he's supposed to be in charge?
 
The "ideals" behind the concept of reform are great, but I don't see the practical application in this case.
 
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Posted: 09 October 2013 05:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]   

   
 
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dave (e_nomo)
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Adversarys Advocate:
I agree the ideals behind your thinking Dave, and Fred's. But it just seems to me that real reform would take so much out of what's there now, there wouldn't be any practical structure left to build on. It might be easier to start with something new?
 
Does the reform include being completely honest to all members about all the reasons for which we leave the church? How many people do you really think will keep attending if the leadership really came clean? 10%? 5%? Or do the leaders of the reformation "only let on a little bit" of the damaging historical truth? If so, are they any better than the liars who engineer the current cover-up? Are we to expect members of the reformed church to accept some amount of historical dishonesty?
 
How can you pull out the foundation pieces without the whole house of cards coming down?
 
Let's look at the Book of Mormon. Do you keep teaching from it as it is? Or do you reform it to be more realistic? What do you keep? First we take out the parts that were obviously copied from the KJV. Then we take out the parts that are too fantastical to be believed in a modern world. Then we take out the parts that are offensive or racist. Now you have a 44 page collection of allegories.
 
How about the priesthood leadership structure? First we have to admit that God was obvioulsy not in charge of the creation of the church. Then we have to admit that the whole "Prophet" thing was just made up. So when that concept goes, so does the "Prophpet, Seer, and Revelator" title. If that falls, then the whole priesthood authority falls. Then who runs the church? Will they start to vote in leaders? Campaign for leadership positions? Politics and platforms?
 
What about tithing? Should we reform that and admit that it never was a commandment from god? Or do the members of the new church keep paying? If the tithing goes, how does the infrastructure run?
 
And the temples and ordinances? If you don't believe in the priesthood authority, then what happens to all that? Is there any reason to keep attending the temple and worshipping in that creepy way?
 
If the church is to reform and truly apologize on things like gay rights, equal rights for women, and racism, it has to go right to the roots and admit that it was completely wrong on those issues all along. By doing so, they completely undermine the whole "one true church" concept, the whole priesthood authority, and the reality of the Book of Mormon. The only other option is to blame god for being wrong the whole time. What kind of incompetent god is that if he's supposed to be in charge?
 
The "ideals" behind the concept of reform are great, but I don't see the practical application in this case.
 
As others have pointed out, the former RLDS has gone down this path.   I knew just a little about them many years ago.   I could be wrong but at the time I believe they were still claiming "one true church" status with the "real" authority coming from JS not BY.  A historical BoM, "the true" priesthood authority and on and on - the whole 9 yards.  
 
30 years later, I stumbled onto their web site and see that all those things have been transformed.  JS was flawed;  the BoM is more or less optional (and not necessarily historic); women are ordained, even women apostles.  And they are moving towards a gay-friendly stance that was once unthinkable.
 
They did all that in the space of my lifetime.  Yes, they lost MANY members along the way, but so what.  I mean, yes, in their eyes that was tragic, but in my eyes the members who remain are so much better off.  I think they stay because it's their culture, it's their tribe.  Doesn't matter what the doctrines are.  
 
As MU noted, if you take away all the uniquely mormon stuff, you're left with something more like methodists or episcopalians.  To which I say "hurray!"  
I'm not a believer in any of these churches but I think some are more dangerous/toxic/harmful than others, and the mormon church as it is now is particularly putrid.  
 
I don't think most mormons are mormons because they are attracted to its unique doctrines and practices.  I think most mormons are mormons because of where they live and/or because their family is mormon.   Yes, they grow to believe (and deeply) but being born into it is how most get in.  And ultimately why most stay.  For that reason, I'm happy if they transform into a harmless little church and maintain their green jello and funeral potatoes and churches with spires and no crosses. 
 
If these changes all seem too radical, remember that BY taught that monogamy was evil (and now we have "the Proclamation"),  blacks would NEVER hold the priesthood (and now we have temples in Africa), and the temple ceremony was "restored" perfectly (and now we've lost all the slash and gash pantomimes). 
 
Make the changes gradually and folks will accept it.  
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Posted: 09 October 2013 05:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]   

   
 
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You beat me to the punch Dave, I was going to bring up the example of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (RLDS) reforms that ultimately led to, essentially, a better, new organization - the Community of Christ.
I also wrote about two other groups that also went through similar reform to become better, less harmful institutions in this Mormon Expression article:
http://mormonexpression.com/blogs/2011/10/20/can-a-mind-control-cult-reform-itself/
One of the organizations was the Worldwide Church of God and one can acquiant one's self with the process that they went through  via this documentary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWAtvE1xiRk
The second group was "The Shepherding Movement" which is the Mind Control Cult that I was from 1976-1986.   It reformed in 1989.
I left the group in 1986 and I was VERY much in the "Total Destruction Club".  I was hurt, I was angry, and I was bitter over how The Shepherding Movement had hurt me, my family, and my friend.  I could see NOTHING good in them or the remaining members - I thought that were all a bunch of blind, stupid sheeple.  In my mind there was NO other option but destruction - total, uncompromising, utter destruction, nothing else would do!
Then they did something that TOTALLY pissed me off - they publicly admitted their mistakes, apologized for past errors, and then reformed the organization in ways that not only made it better and less likely to abuse but also put in safeguards to make sure that past mistakes didn't recur.   Today, it is a much smaller, more effective, and far healthier organization.  I like the organization and I respect the people in it.
So what we're advocating with this movement isn't some type of bizzarre "two headed dog" based in concept and theory but no reality - there is historical precendent here and several template for how other abusive organizations - like the LDS Church - can change for the better. 
The other point I would make is that no one is going to listen to anyone that they think is out to destroy them.  The behind the scenes people that helped lead both of these groups through the reforms were heard because they made it clear that while they had many concerns they were there to help not hurt.  They were there to make the organization better not destroy it.   And it obviously worked - the results speak for themself.
Thank you.  

   


Posted: 09 October 2013 06:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]   

   
 
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Fred W. Anson:
Klatu:
Let's cut to the chase.  Do you believe that god and jesus exist and that they appeared to Joseph Smith and commanded him to start the church?  Yes or no?  As someone who answers that question "no," I see zero point to your efforts to "reform" the church.  I also don't see the point if you answer that question "yes." 
 
Again, this isn't MY project it's OUR project - I'm just the front man for the initiative nothing more.  So I would appreciate it if you would depersonalize your replies - I'm not the issue here, the movement involves a large and diverse group of good people. If you don't like me, fine, but let's talk about the issues not the personalities shall we?

 
Dude: I am responding to YOUR posts.  Not OUR posts.  Or THEIR posts (which THEY never made).  Whether it is MY project or YOUR project or OUR project is pretty much irrelevant, and not an excuse to decline to respond to really rather polite questions about YOUR posts.
 
Hey, it's clear that YOU are not going to answer questions or otherwise engage in a real discussion here.  So, I'll just say, good luck with YOUR, errr, OUR (but not all of OUR, just some of OUR, but not ME or MINE, and I guess not even YOUR since you say it is OUR, errr, THEIR, not YOUR) project.  MY advice on YOUR (or is it OUR?) project is just to keep cutting and pasting and hiding behind YOUR/OUR/THEIR/WE.  That's really going to work.
 
Have a good one, ALL of YOU. 


   


Posted: 09 October 2013 06:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]   

   
 
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Adversarys Advocate:
Should we reform the Nazi party as well?
 
A: Yes, if a coalition of former members, disaffected current members, and outside supporters could find a way to reform the Nazi party so that it no longer harms members and outsiders, it ABSOLUTELY should be reformed. 


   


Posted: 09 October 2013 06:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]   

   
 
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dave (e_nomo):

 
Make the changes gradually and folks will accept it.  
 
I think that perhaps we do not disagree on the basic point.  If I could snap my fingers and change the "bad" church into the "good" church, I certainly would.  But, perhaps where we disagree is the extent of the changes that would be necessary to turn the church into the "good" church.  I think that "tinkering around the edges," which certainly includes things like giving blacks the priesthood, allowing women to pray in meetings, etc., is counter-productive to the ultimate goal because it papers over the real issues and causes people to stay who might otherwise leave.  "Reform," in that respect, delays, not hastens the church's day of reckoning.
 
To become the "good" church requires, in my view (and I admit, freely, this is just my opinion and I could be completely wrong), fundamental changes like the church admitting that prophets speak for themselves, not god.  "Reform" short of that sort of fundamental change is not turning the church into a social club; it's allowing the church to continue its incredibly harmful actions by papering over the real issues. 
 
I think my strong reaction to this (hey, strong enough to get bring me out of lurk-ville, which happens about once a year) arises from the fact that my family has used this argument on me for years: "ok, Klatu, even if everything you say is true, even if Joseph made up the PoGP, even if he married a 14 year old, etc., etc., etc., is the church really so bad?"  My answer: hell yes, because, at its base, it is about power, control, judging, division, and hypocrisy. Unless you change enough to end those practices, and that power over the members, what's the point.
 
Of course, I'll go sin a bit, drink some coffee, and then I will decide that none of this matters.
 
 


   


Posted: 09 October 2013 07:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]   

   
 
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Klatu:
Fred W. Anson:
Klatu:
Let's cut to the chase.  Do you believe that god and jesus exist and that they appeared to Joseph Smith and commanded him to start the church?  Yes or no?  As someone who answers that question "no," I see zero point to your efforts to "reform" the church.  I also don't see the point if you answer that question "yes." 
 
Again, this isn't MY project it's OUR project - I'm just the front man for the initiative nothing more.  So I would appreciate it if you would depersonalize your replies - I'm not the issue here, the movement involves a large and diverse group of good people. If you don't like me, fine, but let's talk about the issues not the personalities shall we?

 
Dude: I am responding to YOUR posts.  Not OUR posts.  Or THEIR posts (which THEY never made).  Whether it is MY project or YOUR project or OUR project is pretty much irrelevant, and not an excuse to decline to respond to really rather polite questions about YOUR posts.
 
Hey, it's clear that YOU are not going to answer questions or otherwise engage in a real discussion here.  So, I'll just say, good luck with YOUR, errr, OUR (but not all of OUR, just some of OUR, but not ME or MINE, and I guess not even YOUR since you say it is OUR, errr, THEIR, not YOUR) project.  MY advice on YOUR (or is it OUR?) project is just to keep cutting and pasting and hiding behind YOUR/OUR/THEIR/WE.  That's really going to work.
 
Have a good one, ALL of YOU. 
 
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Please remember to keep the conversation safe and supportive.
 
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Posted: 09 October 2013 07:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]   

   
 
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I suspect that the church will continue doing its slow evolving, with an occasional spasm of forced, reactive, "it's a revelation" change.  From my first inklings that this church was weird (around age 17 or 18) to now (and that's lots of years) I could never have predicted the changes that have already happened.  There was a time when the excitement about modern Lamanites (e.g., American Indians) was a doctrinal focus.  Now it's never even mentioned.  I can't recall a single recent mention of "Lamanites" that wasn't in regard to one of the groups of people in the Book of Mormon.  Anyway, I didn't foresee the church dropping that topic.  I make a lousy seer, I guess.
 
Probably there will be incremental changes in emphasis, with Pearl of Great Price getting less attention, godhood as our goal getting less emphasis, and total elimination of "year's supply of food" in all major forums.  I think the church will also continue to be intensely ambivalent about gays: it's doctrine is pretty set that genital enjoyment is saved for married heterosexual couples.  On the other hand, the current leadership is trying to buy some wiggle room, seeing that they've painted themselves into an unwelcome PR corner.  So the next reform on that front is likely to be one-step-forward-and-one-step-back.  As it does with most moral issues, the church will eventually follow what society demands.  A few months later some general authority will boldly proclaim in General Conference that this miracle attests to the revelatory powers of the Mormon church in this dispensation.
 
In summary, the reformed church will still look like this one: a quagmire of moral confusion and social irresponsibility spangled with an occasional gem of getting something right, probably due to having consulted with real experts.  I mean, the church isn't perfect and will have to stumble onto the right choice now and then.


   


Posted: 09 October 2013 09:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]   

   
 
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Klatu:
dave (e_nomo):

 
Make the changes gradually and folks will accept it.  
 
I think that perhaps we do not disagree on the basic point.  If I could snap my fingers and change the "bad" church into the "good" church, I certainly would.  But, perhaps where we disagree is the extent of the changes that would be necessary to turn the church into the "good" church.  I think that "tinkering around the edges," which certainly includes things like giving blacks the priesthood, allowing women to pray in meetings, etc., is counter-productive to the ultimate goal because it papers over the real issues and causes people to stay who might otherwise leave.  "Reform," in that respect, delays, not hastens the church's day of reckoning.
 
To become the "good" church requires, in my view (and I admit, freely, this is just my opinion and I could be completely wrong), fundamental changes like the church admitting that prophets speak for themselves, not god.  "Reform" short of that sort of fundamental change is not turning the church into a social club; it's allowing the church to continue its incredibly harmful actions by papering over the real issues. 
 
I think my strong reaction to this (hey, strong enough to get bring me out of lurk-ville, which happens about once a year) arises from the fact that my family has used this argument on me for years: "ok, Klatu, even if everything you say is true, even if Joseph made up the PoGP, even if he married a 14 year old, etc., etc., etc., is the church really so bad?"  My answer: hell yes, because, at its base, it is about power, control, judging, division, and hypocrisy. Unless you change enough to end those practices, and that power over the members, what's the point.
 
Of course, I'll go sin a bit, drink some coffee, and then I will decide that none of this matters.
 
 
 Actually I don't think we disagree that much on this point either, Klatu.  I agree that it would take a massive transformation to turn the mormon church into the "good" church.  Maybe the word "reform" just sounds too small.  But enough reforms can eventually add up to a transformation, including yes, admitting that prophets don't speak for God.  Look at how already the dead prophets get thrown under the bus whenever they disagree with the live ones.  Look how Holy Joe is finally being recognized as a "rough stone rolling" and "not perfect".   It's still several more steps away to say the current prophet is inspired (rather than in direct contact) but it could go there.  
Polygamy was once a foundational doctrine.  You could not achieve the highest heaven without it.  Monogamy was evil.  Now polygamy is treated as a quaint historical relic (though technically still in effect).  
 
I also agree that some reforms can be counterproductive in the short term because they make the church seem more palatable.  If they kept the worst stuff, more people may find it objectionable and get out.  But I do believe that the church will be around for quite a while, reform or not, so I'd rather see the reforms for the sake of those who remain.  
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Posted: 12 October 2013 07:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]   

   
 
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It might look something like Humanistic Mormonism, i.e., the Society for Humanistic Mormonism: http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm 

   


Posted: 12 October 2013 03:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]   

   
 
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dave (e_nomo):

 Actually I don't think we disagree that much on this point either, Klatu.  I agree that it would take a massive transformation to turn the mormon church into the "good" church. 
 
 Ah, cool.  Group hug all around.
 
 
 
Now, go forth and sin. 
 
PS: I agree with you.  Just think it aint ever gonna happen. 


   


Posted: 12 October 2013 03:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]   

   
 
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what would it look like?
 
a hot mess 
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What Would a Reformed Mormon Church Look Like?  
Posted: 26 February 2013 06:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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I just read an open letter that was posted where the writer accuses the leaders of the LDS Church of knowing that it is not true, but perpetuating the fraud for whatever reasons they have. It demands that they reform the church so that there is no more fraud. I was trying to imagine what such a reformed Mormon church would look like. My first thought was that there would no longer be a church and you would have a bunch of agnostics who separately do their own things on Sunday. But that shows my bias. Many people like belonging to a church, and many people believe in God. So let us suppose the church reformed, but did not disband, what would it be like?
If they got rid of the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price. If they stopped revering Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and all the other past and present prophets. If they got rid of the temple ceremonies, fast and testimony meeting, and a whole bunch of other stuff, what would be left?
A bunch of Puritans without the Calvinism who are more interested in salvation through works rather than salvation through faith? People who read the Kings James Version of the Bible rather than the New International Version because it is old fashioned? People with very quiet and subdued Sunday meetings without hand-clapping and guitars? People who follow the Word of Wisdom for scientific and heath-nut reasons rather than for religious reasons? People with a larger than average family size? People with Family Home Evening, home teaching/visiting teaching, geneology for a hobby, gardening and food storage survivalism, and Relief Society-style handicrafts as hobbies? People who don't watch R-rated movies? People who follow a dress code and dress in a rather formal and old fashioned manner? People who send pairs of missionaries in white shirts to Africa to spread Christianity and to do humanitarian good works? The temples would be open to the public and would be used for things like Sunday meetings and regional conferences?
I guess the idea of reforming the LDS church just sort of blew my mind. I am trying to visualize this.
In your opinion, what would the Mormon church be like if it reformed? 

   


Posted: 26 February 2013 06:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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Compare the church of 1830 with the church of 1860, 1920, 1950, 1970 and today. (arbitrary intervals, by the way).
 
It is not the same church. God's one true church, the same God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever, sure changes his mind a lot.
 
The mormon church is undergoing CONSTANT reformation. I think they have too much at stake to give up any of the "standard works". But one day a woman will pray in conference. She might even get the priesthood. One day it will be OK to be gay, in a gay marriage even. They'll lose lots of members over that one, just as they did in 1978 when they did an about-face on blacks. They might even allow gay temple weddings, but they'd lose a lot more over that one. 
 
The RLDS gave up the BoM a few years ago and lost about half its membership. You can bet the LDS church took notice of that one. It won't happen.
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Posted: 27 February 2013 10:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
fauxmon
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What would a reformed mormon church look like?  ...empty.  
 
This is just my view though.  Without the cult control, it really doesn't have much.  The busines ventures could still live on, and probably would but the part that is a "church" couldn't survive a reformation big enough to come completely clean about the past and transparent about the present dealings.
 
The fundamentalist groups would surely grow and gain a lot of support, though.
 
Just my thoughts for what they are worth. 
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Posted: 27 February 2013 12:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Angelworks
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A reformed church would essentially disband, liquidate their assets, apologize for being a pox on society, and give all the tithing back to their donators.
 
Any extra money should go to non religous ngo's to feed and clothe the needy.
 
Also - I'd like to see this letter :). 
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Posted: 27 February 2013 01:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Or, worse yet, it could reform itself into the FLDS. 

   


Posted: 27 February 2013 02:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
sl-skipper
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IMO, the main purpose of a religion is to make itself superfluous. It is a way station, and for many people a vital way station to help them get through the hardships of life. But when they have gotten through the bad parts, the next goal of the church is to help them become independent, rather than co-dependent. 

   


Posted: 27 February 2013 03:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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I recently posted this on another board discussing cult reformation:
 

I love when these threads appear as it's fun to see what folks think about possible revelatory changes that could plug the holes in the mormon dike and save it from its inevitable demise.
Talk about Pay Lay Ale, some of us have spent more than one late night at a pub where a whole bunch of exmos flowcharted out the consequences of various LDS reform changes and nearly all of the threads ended up as disasters for mormonism.
In most cases its just too late. Despite the lying and redacted websites there are just too many mormon official positions that are indefensible if changed. How would you like to be the TBM who has posted pages of anti-gay facebook rants when the next "revelation" allowing gay marriage appears?
However, thanks to the ALE, here were some of the top actual recommendations we thought had a prayer of a chance of actually helping the cult (not in order of importance or effectiveness):
1. Change the stupid marriage rule. A civil marriage followed by a temple sealing hurts no one and helps a whole lot.
2. Change the focus of missionaries. Some evidence of this is already apparent. Missionaries can perform humanitarian service or something like that. Honest leaders will concede that the whole point of missionary service is to drive home the cult hook and keep the missionary in the church. If that's true, who cares what they do out there? Have them do something other than offend the rest of the world.
3. Using Catholic Relief Services or many other christian humanitarian services as models, create an entire new major focus on service and relief. Instead of the embarrassingly tiny charity work that is performed now, mainly for the PR value, begin building a new LDS ethic that provides service to anyone and everyone as much as possible, for free and without strings. If such an ethic and such programs could ever actually become a major emphasis of mormonism, and over time begin to be an important part of its definition, it would be much easier for Holland or other GAs to say that despite the problems with history and doctrine, mormonism helps people and is worthy as a lifestyle and movement. For mormons to make these claims today is just funny of it weren't so pathetic. We thought LDS, Inc. could spend at least half a billion per year if they really wanted to (and if they did it would still be half what Catholic Relief Services spends BTW).
 
4. Along these lines work to decrease the emphasis on the church being "true" and increase the emphasis on the church being a trustworthy, ethical, and reliable lifestyle and good way to live one's life. Not, "it's good cause it's true," but, "it's good cause it works."
5. Also along the same lines, let women be the administrative and program heads of the humanitarian work. Re-launch the Relief Society except with huge resources and huge programs. Give women some real power and resources to wield in the world and at least a reason to feel proud.  Its not the deserved equality entorely, but it would be a good start.
 
6. Reformed YM and YW programs should play a major role working within the service paradigm. People LIKE to make a difference and to help others. They are willing to do this and willing to give money if it facilitates real service. The youth programs are dead -- the homophobic scouts and stupid domestic crafting and gestapo obedience activities are chiefly to blame. Give the youth something meaningful to be a part of.
There were others, but I was past my three pint memory limit and cannot remember.
In general, we thought that unless LDS, Inc. begins to tack away from foolish historical claims (including many biblical historical claims) and cult emphasis on impossible truths (much like a belief in Xenu), they cannot prevail over time.
For anyone educated, magical beliefs will continue to become less and less credible, and moroni and nephi and jesus will eventually end up being the Zeus and Thor and Neptune of the 22nd century.
Mormonism cannot survive on its own stupid truth claims and must evolve. It's leaders do not talk to god and cannot prophecy, see or reveal anything. Its historical claims and archeological impossibilities become more farcical everyday and will not survive as credible. The more evidence appears that the stupid truth claims of mormonism are false and the more mormons cling to them anyway by virtue of the "spirit", the more the epistemology of mormonism is shown to be false as well, revealing testimony as merely a psychological construct.
Only an evolution that brings real meaning into people's lives, that allows them to be a part of a proud and effective movement, that makes them proud to self-identify and associate themselves with it, and that provides a solid and defensible reason to continue to be a part of it will allow mormonism to thrive.
This was the furthest we got with it. What say ye?
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Posted: 27 February 2013 03:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
fauxmon
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Rodolfo:
I recently posted this on another board discussing cult reformation:
 
...snip... 
 
Only an evolution that brings real meaning into people's lives, that allows them to be a part of a proud and effective movement, that makes them proud to self-identify and associate themselves with it, and that provides a solid and indefensible reason to continue to be a part of it will allow mormonism to thrive.
This was the furthest we got with it. What say ye?
 
 Well put. 
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Posted: 27 February 2013 03:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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It would look like the former RLDS church which is now non-existent because it gave up on being 'a peculiar people'. 
The truth is common property. You can't sell it. In order to distinguish yourself from 'others' you have to teach things that are absurd, which is what distinguishes you.
It's just primative old tribalism and group thinking at work.  
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on what she does to help abuse victims, escape the prison of faith which she escaped, barely


   


Posted: 01 March 2013 12:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Thanks Heretic,
 
I am still a big believer in change, in repentence etc.  
 
I long for and often envision and "transformation".   Here are my fantasies:
 
 
The Church would rest on  TRUTH for AUTHORITY, not rely on AUTHORITY for truth.
-   from the teaching of Lucrecia Mott
 
Jesus Christ would be the foundation, the "Author and Finisher of our faith"
 
Joseph Smith would be recognized as a mortal man with great talents and abilities, but
also with great weaknesses and even a capacity for sin.  JS would be like unto King David of Old, teasured for all of his eloquent teachings, but none-the-less acknowledged as a man with moral failings, in need of repentance.   When we accept that even the strongest and greatest among us can fail, we become humble and that is where the Spirit of God begins to grow within us.
 
We would start ministering unto the LIVING and cease to perform our ministeries unto the DEAD.   Christ is the God of the Living, not the God of the dead.  We would stop the "endless geneologies", the baptism, endowment and other ordinances for the dead.   We would focus on the living.
 
We would OPEN the Temples and perform our sacraments before men.   Marriages would be performed in front of the Mother and Father of the Bride and Groom, even if those individuals didn't have valid Temple Recommends.   We would HONOR our Fathers and our Mothers.   I once attended a Christian Wedding were the Minister announced that the ceremony could not begin until the mothers of the bride and groom were seated in the front row.   It was such an act of honor, of reverence and of respect.   It acknowledged the women who brought forth the bride and groom and spent two decades raising them. It united not just the bride and groom, but two families (in-laws) in a sacred union.
I had never felt that strong of a Spirit in the LDS Temple - ever.
 
Financial transparency and the light of day:
 
  The LDS Church would open up the books for all to see.   No more secrecy.     I have been amazed at how certain faiths, such as the Quakers openly report their financial records.   It builds so much trust.   It is an example for husbands and wives to set together and discuss family finances  openly.   It is like Christ being the Husband and the Church being the wife, sharing financial responsibility and accountability builds so much faith and trust.
 
The LDS Church would forever stop the "Politics of Oppression".   They would STOP opposing Equal Rights for women, Civil Rights for minorities (abandon the John Birch Society) and Equal Rights for other minority groups.    They would finally heed the Savior's admonition to, "esteem thy brother as thyself".
 
 
We would STOP commericalizing the Church.   The Gosple of Jesus Christ isn't a "brand"  with "market shares"  that can increase with Madison Avenue marketing.   We teach by example, but our works shall they know us.
 
 


   


Posted: 01 March 2013 12:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
lostandfound
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Rodolfo:
I recently posted this on another board discussing cult reformation:
 

I love when these threads appear as it's fun to see what folks think about possible revelatory changes that could plug the holes in the mormon dike and save it from its inevitable demise.
Talk about Pay Lay Ale, some of us have spent more than one late night at a pub where a whole bunch of exmos flowcharted out the consequences of various LDS reform changes and nearly all of the threads ended up as disasters for mormonism.
In most cases its just too late. Despite the lying and redacted websites there are just too many mormon official positions that are indefensible if changed. How would you like to be the TBM who has posted pages of anti-gay facebook rants when the next "revelation" allowing gay marriage appears?
However, thanks to the ALE, here were some of the top actual recommendations we thought had a prayer of a chance of actually helping the cult (not in order of importance or effectiveness):
1. Change the stupid marriage rule. A civil marriage followed by a temple sealing hurts no one and helps a whole lot.
2. Change the focus of missionaries. Some evidence of this is already apparent. Missionaries can perform humanitarian service or something like that. Honest leaders will concede that the whole point of missionary service is to drive home the cult hook and keep the missionary in the church. If that's true, who cares what they do out there? Have them do something other than offend the rest of the world.
3. Using Catholic Relief Services or many other christian humanitarian services as models, create an entire new major focus on service and relief. Instead of the embarrassingly tiny charity work that is performed now, mainly for the PR value, begin building a new LDS ethic that provides service to anyone and everyone as much as possible, for free and without strings. If such an ethic and such programs could ever actually become a major emphasis of mormonism, and over time begin to be an important part of its definition, it would be much easier for Holland or other GAs to say that despite the problems with history and doctrine, mormonism helps people and is worthy as a lifestyle and movement. For mormons to make these claims today is just funny of it weren't so pathetic. We thought LDS, Inc. could spend at least half a billion per year if they really wanted to (and if they did it would still be half what Catholic Relief Services spends BTW).
 
4. Along these lines work to decrease the emphasis on the church being "true" and increase the emphasis on the church being a trustworthy, ethical, and reliable lifestyle and good way to live one's life. Not, "it's good cause it's true," but, "it's good cause it works."
5. Also along the same lines, let women be the administrative and program heads of the humanitarian work. Re-launch the Relief Society except with huge resources and huge programs. Give women some real power and resources to wield in the world and at least a reason to feel proud.  Its not the deserved equality entorely, but it would be a good start.
 
6. Reformed YM and YW programs should play a major role working within the service paradigm. People LIKE to make a difference and to help others. They are willing to do this and willing to give money if it facilitates real service. The youth programs are dead -- the homophobic scouts and stupid domestic crafting and gestapo obedience activities are chiefly to blame. Give the youth something meaningful to be a part of.
There were others, but I was past my three pint memory limit and cannot remember.
In general, we thought that unless LDS, Inc. begins to tack away from foolish historical claims (including many biblical historical claims) and cult emphasis on impossible truths (much like a belief in Xenu), they cannot prevail over time.
For anyone educated, magical beliefs will continue to become less and less credible, and moroni and nephi and jesus will eventually end up being the Zeus and Thor and Neptune of the 22nd century.
Mormonism cannot survive on its own stupid truth claims and must evolve. It's leaders do not talk to god and cannot prophecy, see or reveal anything. Its historical claims and archeological impossibilities become more farcical everyday and will not survive as credible. The more evidence appears that the stupid truth claims of mormonism are false and the more mormons cling to them anyway by virtue of the "spirit", the more the epistemology of mormonism is shown to be false as well, revealing testimony as merely a psychological construct.
Only an evolution that brings real meaning into people's lives, that allows them to be a part of a proud and effective movement, that makes them proud to self-identify and associate themselves with it, and that provides a solid and defensible reason to continue to be a part of it will allow mormonism to thrive.
This was the furthest we got with it. What say ye?
 
 Many of my ideas mirror yours.   I hope that others feel the same way.
 


   


Posted: 07 October 2013 01:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
Fred W. Anson
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Some have suggested that it would look like the Community of Christ - which reformed itself out of the RLDS church but didn't shed the Book of Mormon or Doctrine & Covenants as unique scripture. In fact, they're still adding to D&C.
 
Others have suggested that it would just be another Protestant Denomination IF it sheds it's unique scripture - and that's either good or bad depending on your perspective.
 
Others have suggested that reform will just lead to a shuttered institution.
 
Candidly, I don't know either - but it's an interesting topic to discuss, so thanks for bringing it up.
 
Finally, I think that the "open letter" you're referring to may be the Mormon Reformation Day 95 LDS Theses project that I was a part of and am now the front man for an October 31st internet and door posting campaign (see http://MormonReformationDay2013.org ).
 
If so, I can tell you that there was a diversity of opinion there too - and the theses development group ranged from the, "Reformation not Destruction" club to the "Total Destruction" club.  And it was primarily Mormon (although certainly not TBM) and ExMormon.
 
It was an interesting group - and one that's now been a rotating roster over 3-years now. However, the one thing that we agreed on was that the organization will probably continue to exist in some form or fashion (even the Total Destruction club finally resigned themselves to this) and that if it addressed the issues that we were compiled into what became ultimately became the 95 LDS Theses it would be a better, less harmful institution.
 
So in that light, I hope that you all will join us in making your voices heard on October 31st whether you use our 95 LDS Theses or do your own.
 
Regardless of what ultimately happens it will be, no doubt, be interesting to watch.
 
Thanks.


   


Posted: 07 October 2013 03:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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C'mon, get real!  If TSCC is allowed to 'reform' by the only 15 peope who can reform it, the first thing they'd make sure of was keeping their jobs.  So they'd research  the heck out of each and every change, and they start slow and easy.  
 
But here are the two changes that would keep the pews filled:
 
1.  turn the WoW back into a suggestion.  You could stagger into your TR interview, drunk on your ass, answer all the other questions correctly, blow smoke in the Bishop's face, and walk out with your TR.  It's only that tithing question that really counts with the COB.
 
2.  Adultery remains a no-no, but sex outside of marriage, sex when you haven't made any promises, is okay.  That would take the testosterone out of the rush for quick marriages, and we'd all breathe a sigh of relief.  I still would have gotten married, eventually, and she and I would have done so for reasons that would have boosted the odds the marriage would succeed. 
 
MIA would sure be a lot more fun!!!   


   


Posted: 07 October 2013 05:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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   Since the topic of reform came up I would like to add a couple of ideas. The church would still need some money for the top dogs to maintain their perks. But make it voluntary. Install a built-in lottery system for those who donate. Tip it slightly in favor of the house so that they get a small cut, then distribute the rest as winnings to those who made it all possible.
 
   While on money, bring back the concept of pre-paid sinning. You wanna indulge a little? Gonna cost ya. If you don't have any money but still wanna smoke a doobie, clean a toilet or two. Maybe even get a SIN RECOMMEND from the bishop that's good for a whole year.
 
  


   


Posted: 07 October 2013 08:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Any reforms, no matter how substantial, will not change the fact that the church is one big lie. Put a coat of paint on a cancer tumor. It's still a cancer tumor. 

   


Posted: 07 October 2013 08:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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I have a lot of respect for how the RLDS church tried to do this. They're now the Community of Christ and they're smaller and less-weird compared to other churches. But the LDS church has no respect for them for denying the mormony parts and neither do the mainstream Christian churches because they came from the heathen Mormon background. You can't win. I'd love it if the church came clean and made it less constrictive and miserable to be part of it, but that seems to be what makes faiths thrive. People like to deny themselves and sacrifice and feel superior for it. Feeling persecuted like the pioneers makes them feel like they're really onto the truth because satan is working so hard against them, etc. I used to feel the same. 

   


Posted: 07 October 2013 10:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
Fred W. Anson
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I forgot to mention that in addition to the RLDS/Community of Christ I wrote about two other groups that reformed in this Mormon Expression article: http://mormonexpression.com/blogs/2011/10/20/can-a-mind-control-cult-reform-itself
 
And in the interest of full disclosure, I was in one of the groups, The Shepherding Movement, from 1976-1986. They reformed in 1989. The other group, The Worldwide Church of God, I was never involved with.  So I've never been in the middle of one of these but I've heard some of the stories from what went down in The Shepherding Movement. 
 
All this to say, that we have a few groups that have successfully made the transition - perhaps that's why I'm not without hope in regard to the LdS Church. However, as I concluded in the article:
 
"So while the answer to the original question, “Can a Mind Control Cult reform itself?” may be yes, it is never easy, painless, or smooth – and there’s always fall out."
 
This won't be easy for the LdS Church but IMO, it IS possible!


   


Posted: 08 October 2013 03:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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To me, asking the church to "reform" feels a little like trying to reform Krispy Kreme by demanding they quit filling all their products with sugar and fat that promote ill health. Sure, you could replace the donuts with salads, but at that point they would no longer be Krispy Kreme.
 
In a similar sense, the criticisms I have of TSCC cannot be reformed away.
 
I agree with President Hinckley when he said that either the church was what it claimed or it was a fraud. Well, if the church is what it claims, and it is directly run by a resurrected deity through his hand-chosen prophets on earth, then it does not need "reform". If it is a fraud, then no amount of "reform" can make it true. The most we can hope for is to make it less offensive (which is perhaps the major goal of this movement) but I really don't see the point.
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Posted: 08 October 2013 07:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
Fred W. Anson
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thNephite:
The most we can hope for is to make it less offensive (which is perhaps the major goal of this movement) but I really don't see the point.

Actually, I explained that in a prior post:
"It [the 95 LDS Theses development team] was an interesting group - and one that's now been a rotating roster over 3-years now. However, the one thing that we agreed on was that the organization will probably continue to exist in some form or fashion (even the Total Destruction club finally resigned themselves to this) and that if it addressed the issues that we were compiled into what became ultimately became the 95 LDS Theses it would be a better, less harmful institution."
The minimum goal that we're hoping to achieve it to make it less harmful.  I suppose that would make it less offensive as a by-product but that's not really a stated objective.
Or as we put it on the current campaign's FAQ page:
Q: I would really like to know your vision of what the post 95 LDS Theses church would be like.
A: The real question is what would YOU like a post 95 LDS Theses Church to look and be like?
Everyone who’s been involved and will be involved in this project would answer that question differently. And while we may agree on points we disagree on others. However, the one thing that we all agree on is that reform is needed.
 
- and -
Q: Why are you trying to reform something that’s so broken that it can never be reformed?
A: We’re not quite that cynical – we still see great potential and promise in the LDS Church.
However, right now there are issues keeping the LDS Church from reaching it’s full potential as a force for good in the earth. And we think that taking action on the issues addressed in the 95 LDS Theses would be a good start in that direction.
(see  http://mormonreformationday2013.wordpress.com/faq/ )
I hope that this helps clarify a bit.  
 


   


Posted: 09 October 2013 04:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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Klatu
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Fred W. Anson:
thNephite:
The most we can hope for is to make it less offensive (which is perhaps the major goal of this movement) but I really don't see the point.

Actually, I explained that in a prior post:

 
 
Actually, with respect, these poorly-written Q+As you keep cutting and pasting do not respond to the "why reform a false organization" points 4thNephite and others have raised.
 
Let's cut to the chase.  Do you believe that god and jesus exist and that they appeared to Joseph Smith and commanded him to start the church?  Yes or no?  As someone who answers that question "no," I see zero point to your efforts to "reform" the church.  I also don't see the point if you answer that question "yes." 


   


Posted: 09 October 2013 06:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
finex
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Matter Unorganized:
  
It is not the same church. God's one true church, the same God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever, sure changes his mind a lot.
   
 
 Don't forget that the forever unchanging God was also once an ordinary man like us.


   


Posted: 09 October 2013 08:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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Q: "What Would a Reformed Mormon Church Look Like?"
 
A: A historical curiosity.

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Posted: 09 October 2013 08:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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Matter Unorganized:
Compare the church of 1830 with the church of 1860, 1920, 1950, 1970 and today. (arbitrary intervals, by the way).
 
It is not the same church. God's one true church, the same God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever, sure changes his mind a lot.
 
The mormon church is undergoing CONSTANT reformation. I think they have too much at stake to give up any of the "standard works". But one day a woman will pray in conference. She might even get the priesthood. One day it will be OK to be gay, in a gay marriage even. They'll lose lots of members over that one, just as they did in 1978 when they did an about-face on blacks. They might even allow gay temple weddings, but they'd lose a lot more over that one. 
 
The RLDS gave up the BoM a few years ago and lost about half its membership. You can bet the LDS church took notice of that one. It won't happen.
 
Holy shit! I must have had The Spirit of Prophecy™ back in February.
 
But I think I lost it. I called for the Rays to win last night. Damn.  
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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
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Posted: 09 October 2013 10:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
Fred W. Anson
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Klatu:
Let's cut to the chase.  Do you believe that god and jesus exist and that they appeared to Joseph Smith and commanded him to start the church?  Yes or no?  As someone who answers that question "no," I see zero point to your efforts to "reform" the church.  I also don't see the point if you answer that question "yes." 
 
Again, this isn't MY project it's OUR project - I'm just the front man for the initiative nothing more.  So I would appreciate it if you would depersonalize your replies - I'm not the issue here, the movement involves a large and diverse group of good people. If you don't like me, fine, but let's talk about the issues not the personalities shall we?
That said, my answer to your question is, "No".  I'm a NeverMo with Mormon friends and family and I would like to see them in a better, less harmful church.  And my stance if that if it doesn't reform it needs to end because it's just not a healthy place right now.
Others on the team would answer, "Yes", because they're still Mormon but believe that the modern church can be a force for good if it reforms.  
 
Others are Shadow Mormons who would answer, "No" and echo my sentiments.  
 
Still others, are ExMormons very much in the "Total Destruction" club who are willing to complement their preferred agenda with a "stop gap" or "baby step" initiative to change the organization for the better for the sake of their friends and family members who will most likely never leave the LDS Church.
So this isn't a bifurcated question, it's nuanced.  
 
And the bottom line is this: The LDS Church is most likely going to continue to exist in some form, period - it's got a 183-year track record there.  Regardless of whether the LDS Church is "true" or not, I think we can all agree that change is needed. 
 
So are we going to try to influence it to be better or just let it maintain the status quo and continue to hurt people?
I'm choosing the former. 
 
Finally, I haven't engaged in slurs or personal attacks in engaging here, I would appreciate the same courtesy from others. If one don't like my answers that's fine. However, to be harsh and insulting in one's replies is altogether something else.
 
Thanks. 



   


Posted: 09 October 2013 10:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
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What is nuanced again?
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They say that I am crazy
My life wasting on this road
That time will find my dreams
Scared or dead and cold
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Drawing me to reach an end
And when I reach there, I’ll turn back
And you and I can begin again

200 More Miles
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Posted: 09 October 2013 12:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
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Fred W. Anson:
Klatu:
Let's cut to the chase.  Do you believe that god and jesus exist and that they appeared to Joseph Smith and commanded him to start the church?  Yes or no?  As someone who answers that question "no," I see zero point to your efforts to "reform" the church.  I also don't see the point if you answer that question "yes." 
 
Again, this isn't MY project it's OUR project - I'm just the front man for the initiative nothing more.  So I would appreciate it if you would depersonalize your replies - I'm not the issue here, the movement involves a large and diverse group of good people. If you don't like me, fine, but let's talk about the issues not the personalities shall we?
That said, my answer to your question is, "No".  I'm a NeverMo with Mormon friends and family and I would like to see them in a better, less harmful church.  And my stance if that if it doesn't reform it needs to end because it's just not a healthy place right now.
Others on the team would answer, "Yes", because they're still Mormon but believe that the modern church can be a force for good if it reforms.  
 
Others are Shadow Mormons who would answer, "No" and echo my sentiments.  
 
Still others, are ExMormons very much in the "Total Destruction" club who are willing to complement their preferred agenda with a "stop gap" or "baby step" initiative to change the organization for the better for the sake of their friends and family members who will most likely never leave the LDS Church.
So this isn't a bifurcated question, it's nuanced.  
 
And the bottom line is this: The LDS Church is most likely going to continue to exist in some form, period - it's got a 183-year track record there.  Regardless of whether the LDS Church is "true" or not, I think we can all agree that change is needed. 
 
So are we going to try to influence it to be better or just let it maintain the status quo and continue to hurt people?
I'm choosing the former. 
 
Finally, I haven't engaged in slurs or personal attacks in engaging here, I would appreciate the same courtesy from others. If one don't like my answers that's fine. However, to be harsh and insulting in one's replies is altogether something else.
 
Thanks. 

 
I don't see a personal attack here, just a challenge to what appears to be faulty logic. I completely agree. How can you "fix" a religion that was fabricated by an evil man, and built on lies? Scrub all that out of it, and what do you have left?
 
Old log cabins had a dirt floor. You could sweep all you want, but you still have a dirt floor.
 
Should we reform the Nazi party as well?
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Posted: 09 October 2013 01:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]   

   
 
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dave (e_nomo)
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Fred W. Anson:
Klatu:
Let's cut to the chase.  Do you believe that god and jesus exist and that they appeared to Joseph Smith and commanded him to start the church?  Yes or no?  As someone who answers that question "no," I see zero point to your efforts to "reform" the church.  I also don't see the point if you answer that question "yes." 
 
Again, this isn't MY project it's OUR project - I'm just the front man for the initiative nothing more.  So I would appreciate it if you would depersonalize your replies - I'm not the issue here, the movement involves a large and diverse group of good people. If you don't like me, fine, but let's talk about the issues not the personalities shall we?
That said, my answer to your question is, "No".  I'm a NeverMo with Mormon friends and family and I would like to see them in a better, less harmful church.  And my stance if that if it doesn't reform it needs to end because it's just not a healthy place right now.
Others on the team would answer, "Yes", because they're still Mormon but believe that the modern church can be a force for good if it reforms.  
 
Others are Shadow Mormons who would answer, "No" and echo my sentiments.  
 
Still others, are ExMormons very much in the "Total Destruction" club who are willing to complement their preferred agenda with a "stop gap" or "baby step" initiative to change the organization for the better for the sake of their friends and family members who will most likely never leave the LDS Church.
So this isn't a bifurcated question, it's nuanced.  
 
And the bottom line is this: The LDS Church is most likely going to continue to exist in some form, period - it's got a 183-year track record there.  Regardless of whether the LDS Church is "true" or not, I think we can all agree that change is needed. 
 
So are we going to try to influence it to be better or just let it maintain the status quo and continue to hurt people?
I'm choosing the former. 
 
Finally, I haven't engaged in slurs or personal attacks in engaging here, I would appreciate the same courtesy from others. If one don't like my answers that's fine. However, to be harsh and insulting in one's replies is altogether something else.
 
Thanks. 

I would love to see the mormon church fold up its tents and go away forever.  But realistically, that is not going to happen anytime soon. 
So in the meantime, what about the people who are trapped in the church, for whatever reason?  Young people who are stuck because they live with parents who force them to go, or spouses who are threatened with losing their children if they don't play along, or anyone who has been indoctrinated for so long and so deeply that they can't see the way out? 
For these people and others, I see some merit in Fred's statement.  Yes, when you take away all the uniquely mormon aspects from the mormon church, you are left with a generic church or a social club.  But is that so bad? 
 
At least it would be a generic church that doesn't drive GLBT youth to suicide.  At least it would be a generic church that doesn't teach women that they are less than men.  At least it would be a church that does not heap unhealthy guilt on normal sexual activity.  At least it would be a club where single people have as much worth as married people.  At least it would be a club that is not so arrogant as to think they are the only club in town with value.  At least it would be a club that doesn't try to impose its 'morals' on everyone else. 
The day the mormon church withers up and dies, I will shed no tears.  To me that's the ideal outcome.  In the meantime, for those who can't get out, I'd rather see them in a harmless generic religious/social club than what they're in now.  If people hope to reform it from within, I say go for it.  Don't make the perfect the enemy of the good.
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Posted: 09 October 2013 02:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]   

   
 
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If you take away the things that make the mormon church unique, it will cease to exist. It's those unique things which appeal to a few people, are tolerable by a few, and enfuriating to a few, which enables to keep the church chugging along. For those it appeals to, and to the vast majority of active mormons who just go along with it because it's all they know, if you took it away their reason for attending would also slip away.
 
The things which make any religion unique are pretty much the same as what makes any franchised establishment unique. McDonald's has the Big Mac, Burger King (Hungry Jack's in Australia) has the Whopper, Wendy's has the Baconator. Once you get past that, it's just freakin' hamburgers. Same with churches. Take away unique doctrines and what do you have?
 
The mormons have grabbed their corner of the market by instituting weird-ass doctrines that others laugh at. Ditto the JWs, 7th Day Adventists, Christian Science and many more. I think what sets mormonism apart is that their specific doctrines and pratices are so out there, people grasp on to them, but to the detriment of the basic generic Christian doctrines. I remember sitting in the temple once, weirded out as usual, and the thought came to me "This is so different, so totally removed from what other churches practice, that it MUST be true!" That's the type of mindset mormonism relies on. Take the weirdness away, and they're no different than methodists or episcopalians.
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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 09 October 2013 02:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]   

   
 
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I agree the ideals behind your thinking Dave, and Fred's. But it just seems to me that real reform would take so much out of what's there now, there wouldn't be any practical structure left to build on. It might be easier to start with something new?
 
Does the reform include being completely honest to all members about all the reasons for which we leave the church? How many people do you really think will keep attending if the leadership really came clean? 10%? 5%? Or do the leaders of the reformation "only let on a little bit" of the damaging historical truth? If so, are they any better than the liars who engineer the current cover-up? Are we to expect members of the reformed church to accept some amount of historical dishonesty?
 
How can you pull out the foundation pieces without the whole house of cards coming down?
 
Let's look at the Book of Mormon. Do you keep teaching from it as it is? Or do you reform it to be more realistic? What do you keep? First we take out the parts that were obviously copied from the KJV. Then we take out the parts that are too fantastical to be believed in a modern world. Then we take out the parts that are offensive or racist. Now you have a 44 page collection of allegories.
 
How about the priesthood leadership structure? First we have to admit that God was obvioulsy not in charge of the creation of the church. Then we have to admit that the whole "Prophet" thing was just made up. So when that concept goes, so does the "Prophpet, Seer, and Revelator" title. If that falls, then the whole priesthood authority falls. Then who runs the church? Will they start to vote in leaders? Campaign for leadership positions? Politics and platforms?
 
What about tithing? Should we reform that and admit that it never was a commandment from god? Or do the members of the new church keep paying? If the tithing goes, how does the infrastructure run?
 
And the temples and ordinances? If you don't believe in the priesthood authority, then what happens to all that? Is there any reason to keep attending the temple and worshipping in that creepy way?
 
If the church is to reform and truly apologize on things like gay rights, equal rights for women, and racism, it has to go right to the roots and admit that it was completely wrong on those issues all along. By doing so, they completely undermine the whole "one true church" concept, the whole priesthood authority, and the reality of the Book of Mormon. The only other option is to blame god for being wrong the whole time. What kind of incompetent god is that if he's supposed to be in charge?
 
The "ideals" behind the concept of reform are great, but I don't see the practical application in this case.
 
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Posted: 09 October 2013 05:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]   

   
 
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dave (e_nomo)
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Adversarys Advocate:
I agree the ideals behind your thinking Dave, and Fred's. But it just seems to me that real reform would take so much out of what's there now, there wouldn't be any practical structure left to build on. It might be easier to start with something new?
 
Does the reform include being completely honest to all members about all the reasons for which we leave the church? How many people do you really think will keep attending if the leadership really came clean? 10%? 5%? Or do the leaders of the reformation "only let on a little bit" of the damaging historical truth? If so, are they any better than the liars who engineer the current cover-up? Are we to expect members of the reformed church to accept some amount of historical dishonesty?
 
How can you pull out the foundation pieces without the whole house of cards coming down?
 
Let's look at the Book of Mormon. Do you keep teaching from it as it is? Or do you reform it to be more realistic? What do you keep? First we take out the parts that were obviously copied from the KJV. Then we take out the parts that are too fantastical to be believed in a modern world. Then we take out the parts that are offensive or racist. Now you have a 44 page collection of allegories.
 
How about the priesthood leadership structure? First we have to admit that God was obvioulsy not in charge of the creation of the church. Then we have to admit that the whole "Prophet" thing was just made up. So when that concept goes, so does the "Prophpet, Seer, and Revelator" title. If that falls, then the whole priesthood authority falls. Then who runs the church? Will they start to vote in leaders? Campaign for leadership positions? Politics and platforms?
 
What about tithing? Should we reform that and admit that it never was a commandment from god? Or do the members of the new church keep paying? If the tithing goes, how does the infrastructure run?
 
And the temples and ordinances? If you don't believe in the priesthood authority, then what happens to all that? Is there any reason to keep attending the temple and worshipping in that creepy way?
 
If the church is to reform and truly apologize on things like gay rights, equal rights for women, and racism, it has to go right to the roots and admit that it was completely wrong on those issues all along. By doing so, they completely undermine the whole "one true church" concept, the whole priesthood authority, and the reality of the Book of Mormon. The only other option is to blame god for being wrong the whole time. What kind of incompetent god is that if he's supposed to be in charge?
 
The "ideals" behind the concept of reform are great, but I don't see the practical application in this case.
 
As others have pointed out, the former RLDS has gone down this path.   I knew just a little about them many years ago.   I could be wrong but at the time I believe they were still claiming "one true church" status with the "real" authority coming from JS not BY.  A historical BoM, "the true" priesthood authority and on and on - the whole 9 yards.  
 
30 years later, I stumbled onto their web site and see that all those things have been transformed.  JS was flawed;  the BoM is more or less optional (and not necessarily historic); women are ordained, even women apostles.  And they are moving towards a gay-friendly stance that was once unthinkable.
 
They did all that in the space of my lifetime.  Yes, they lost MANY members along the way, but so what.  I mean, yes, in their eyes that was tragic, but in my eyes the members who remain are so much better off.  I think they stay because it's their culture, it's their tribe.  Doesn't matter what the doctrines are.  
 
As MU noted, if you take away all the uniquely mormon stuff, you're left with something more like methodists or episcopalians.  To which I say "hurray!"  
I'm not a believer in any of these churches but I think some are more dangerous/toxic/harmful than others, and the mormon church as it is now is particularly putrid.  
 
I don't think most mormons are mormons because they are attracted to its unique doctrines and practices.  I think most mormons are mormons because of where they live and/or because their family is mormon.   Yes, they grow to believe (and deeply) but being born into it is how most get in.  And ultimately why most stay.  For that reason, I'm happy if they transform into a harmless little church and maintain their green jello and funeral potatoes and churches with spires and no crosses. 
 
If these changes all seem too radical, remember that BY taught that monogamy was evil (and now we have "the Proclamation"),  blacks would NEVER hold the priesthood (and now we have temples in Africa), and the temple ceremony was "restored" perfectly (and now we've lost all the slash and gash pantomimes). 
 
Make the changes gradually and folks will accept it.  
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Posted: 09 October 2013 05:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]   

   
 
Fred W. Anson
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You beat me to the punch Dave, I was going to bring up the example of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (RLDS) reforms that ultimately led to, essentially, a better, new organization - the Community of Christ.
I also wrote about two other groups that also went through similar reform to become better, less harmful institutions in this Mormon Expression article:
http://mormonexpression.com/blogs/2011/10/20/can-a-mind-control-cult-reform-itself/
One of the organizations was the Worldwide Church of God and one can acquiant one's self with the process that they went through  via this documentary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWAtvE1xiRk
The second group was "The Shepherding Movement" which is the Mind Control Cult that I was from 1976-1986.   It reformed in 1989.
I left the group in 1986 and I was VERY much in the "Total Destruction Club".  I was hurt, I was angry, and I was bitter over how The Shepherding Movement had hurt me, my family, and my friend.  I could see NOTHING good in them or the remaining members - I thought that were all a bunch of blind, stupid sheeple.  In my mind there was NO other option but destruction - total, uncompromising, utter destruction, nothing else would do!
Then they did something that TOTALLY pissed me off - they publicly admitted their mistakes, apologized for past errors, and then reformed the organization in ways that not only made it better and less likely to abuse but also put in safeguards to make sure that past mistakes didn't recur.   Today, it is a much smaller, more effective, and far healthier organization.  I like the organization and I respect the people in it.
So what we're advocating with this movement isn't some type of bizzarre "two headed dog" based in concept and theory but no reality - there is historical precendent here and several template for how other abusive organizations - like the LDS Church - can change for the better. 
The other point I would make is that no one is going to listen to anyone that they think is out to destroy them.  The behind the scenes people that helped lead both of these groups through the reforms were heard because they made it clear that while they had many concerns they were there to help not hurt.  They were there to make the organization better not destroy it.   And it obviously worked - the results speak for themself.
Thank you.  

   


Posted: 09 October 2013 06:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]   

   
 
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Fred W. Anson:
Klatu:
Let's cut to the chase.  Do you believe that god and jesus exist and that they appeared to Joseph Smith and commanded him to start the church?  Yes or no?  As someone who answers that question "no," I see zero point to your efforts to "reform" the church.  I also don't see the point if you answer that question "yes." 
 
Again, this isn't MY project it's OUR project - I'm just the front man for the initiative nothing more.  So I would appreciate it if you would depersonalize your replies - I'm not the issue here, the movement involves a large and diverse group of good people. If you don't like me, fine, but let's talk about the issues not the personalities shall we?

 
Dude: I am responding to YOUR posts.  Not OUR posts.  Or THEIR posts (which THEY never made).  Whether it is MY project or YOUR project or OUR project is pretty much irrelevant, and not an excuse to decline to respond to really rather polite questions about YOUR posts.
 
Hey, it's clear that YOU are not going to answer questions or otherwise engage in a real discussion here.  So, I'll just say, good luck with YOUR, errr, OUR (but not all of OUR, just some of OUR, but not ME or MINE, and I guess not even YOUR since you say it is OUR, errr, THEIR, not YOUR) project.  MY advice on YOUR (or is it OUR?) project is just to keep cutting and pasting and hiding behind YOUR/OUR/THEIR/WE.  That's really going to work.
 
Have a good one, ALL of YOU. 


   


Posted: 09 October 2013 06:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]   

   
 
Fred W. Anson
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Adversarys Advocate:
Should we reform the Nazi party as well?
 
A: Yes, if a coalition of former members, disaffected current members, and outside supporters could find a way to reform the Nazi party so that it no longer harms members and outsiders, it ABSOLUTELY should be reformed. 


   


Posted: 09 October 2013 06:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]   

   
 
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dave (e_nomo):

 
Make the changes gradually and folks will accept it.  
 
I think that perhaps we do not disagree on the basic point.  If I could snap my fingers and change the "bad" church into the "good" church, I certainly would.  But, perhaps where we disagree is the extent of the changes that would be necessary to turn the church into the "good" church.  I think that "tinkering around the edges," which certainly includes things like giving blacks the priesthood, allowing women to pray in meetings, etc., is counter-productive to the ultimate goal because it papers over the real issues and causes people to stay who might otherwise leave.  "Reform," in that respect, delays, not hastens the church's day of reckoning.
 
To become the "good" church requires, in my view (and I admit, freely, this is just my opinion and I could be completely wrong), fundamental changes like the church admitting that prophets speak for themselves, not god.  "Reform" short of that sort of fundamental change is not turning the church into a social club; it's allowing the church to continue its incredibly harmful actions by papering over the real issues. 
 
I think my strong reaction to this (hey, strong enough to get bring me out of lurk-ville, which happens about once a year) arises from the fact that my family has used this argument on me for years: "ok, Klatu, even if everything you say is true, even if Joseph made up the PoGP, even if he married a 14 year old, etc., etc., etc., is the church really so bad?"  My answer: hell yes, because, at its base, it is about power, control, judging, division, and hypocrisy. Unless you change enough to end those practices, and that power over the members, what's the point.
 
Of course, I'll go sin a bit, drink some coffee, and then I will decide that none of this matters.
 
 


   


Posted: 09 October 2013 07:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]   

   
 
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Klatu:
Fred W. Anson:
Klatu:
Let's cut to the chase.  Do you believe that god and jesus exist and that they appeared to Joseph Smith and commanded him to start the church?  Yes or no?  As someone who answers that question "no," I see zero point to your efforts to "reform" the church.  I also don't see the point if you answer that question "yes." 
 
Again, this isn't MY project it's OUR project - I'm just the front man for the initiative nothing more.  So I would appreciate it if you would depersonalize your replies - I'm not the issue here, the movement involves a large and diverse group of good people. If you don't like me, fine, but let's talk about the issues not the personalities shall we?

 
Dude: I am responding to YOUR posts.  Not OUR posts.  Or THEIR posts (which THEY never made).  Whether it is MY project or YOUR project or OUR project is pretty much irrelevant, and not an excuse to decline to respond to really rather polite questions about YOUR posts.
 
Hey, it's clear that YOU are not going to answer questions or otherwise engage in a real discussion here.  So, I'll just say, good luck with YOUR, errr, OUR (but not all of OUR, just some of OUR, but not ME or MINE, and I guess not even YOUR since you say it is OUR, errr, THEIR, not YOUR) project.  MY advice on YOUR (or is it OUR?) project is just to keep cutting and pasting and hiding behind YOUR/OUR/THEIR/WE.  That's really going to work.
 
Have a good one, ALL of YOU. 
 
 [gentle moderator reminder]
 
Please remember to keep the conversation safe and supportive.
 
Thanks. 
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Posted: 09 October 2013 07:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]   

   
 
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I suspect that the church will continue doing its slow evolving, with an occasional spasm of forced, reactive, "it's a revelation" change.  From my first inklings that this church was weird (around age 17 or 18) to now (and that's lots of years) I could never have predicted the changes that have already happened.  There was a time when the excitement about modern Lamanites (e.g., American Indians) was a doctrinal focus.  Now it's never even mentioned.  I can't recall a single recent mention of "Lamanites" that wasn't in regard to one of the groups of people in the Book of Mormon.  Anyway, I didn't foresee the church dropping that topic.  I make a lousy seer, I guess.
 
Probably there will be incremental changes in emphasis, with Pearl of Great Price getting less attention, godhood as our goal getting less emphasis, and total elimination of "year's supply of food" in all major forums.  I think the church will also continue to be intensely ambivalent about gays: it's doctrine is pretty set that genital enjoyment is saved for married heterosexual couples.  On the other hand, the current leadership is trying to buy some wiggle room, seeing that they've painted themselves into an unwelcome PR corner.  So the next reform on that front is likely to be one-step-forward-and-one-step-back.  As it does with most moral issues, the church will eventually follow what society demands.  A few months later some general authority will boldly proclaim in General Conference that this miracle attests to the revelatory powers of the Mormon church in this dispensation.
 
In summary, the reformed church will still look like this one: a quagmire of moral confusion and social irresponsibility spangled with an occasional gem of getting something right, probably due to having consulted with real experts.  I mean, the church isn't perfect and will have to stumble onto the right choice now and then.


   


Posted: 09 October 2013 09:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]   

   
 
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Klatu:
dave (e_nomo):

 
Make the changes gradually and folks will accept it.  
 
I think that perhaps we do not disagree on the basic point.  If I could snap my fingers and change the "bad" church into the "good" church, I certainly would.  But, perhaps where we disagree is the extent of the changes that would be necessary to turn the church into the "good" church.  I think that "tinkering around the edges," which certainly includes things like giving blacks the priesthood, allowing women to pray in meetings, etc., is counter-productive to the ultimate goal because it papers over the real issues and causes people to stay who might otherwise leave.  "Reform," in that respect, delays, not hastens the church's day of reckoning.
 
To become the "good" church requires, in my view (and I admit, freely, this is just my opinion and I could be completely wrong), fundamental changes like the church admitting that prophets speak for themselves, not god.  "Reform" short of that sort of fundamental change is not turning the church into a social club; it's allowing the church to continue its incredibly harmful actions by papering over the real issues. 
 
I think my strong reaction to this (hey, strong enough to get bring me out of lurk-ville, which happens about once a year) arises from the fact that my family has used this argument on me for years: "ok, Klatu, even if everything you say is true, even if Joseph made up the PoGP, even if he married a 14 year old, etc., etc., etc., is the church really so bad?"  My answer: hell yes, because, at its base, it is about power, control, judging, division, and hypocrisy. Unless you change enough to end those practices, and that power over the members, what's the point.
 
Of course, I'll go sin a bit, drink some coffee, and then I will decide that none of this matters.
 
 
 Actually I don't think we disagree that much on this point either, Klatu.  I agree that it would take a massive transformation to turn the mormon church into the "good" church.  Maybe the word "reform" just sounds too small.  But enough reforms can eventually add up to a transformation, including yes, admitting that prophets don't speak for God.  Look at how already the dead prophets get thrown under the bus whenever they disagree with the live ones.  Look how Holy Joe is finally being recognized as a "rough stone rolling" and "not perfect".   It's still several more steps away to say the current prophet is inspired (rather than in direct contact) but it could go there.  
Polygamy was once a foundational doctrine.  You could not achieve the highest heaven without it.  Monogamy was evil.  Now polygamy is treated as a quaint historical relic (though technically still in effect).  
 
I also agree that some reforms can be counterproductive in the short term because they make the church seem more palatable.  If they kept the worst stuff, more people may find it objectionable and get out.  But I do believe that the church will be around for quite a while, reform or not, so I'd rather see the reforms for the sake of those who remain.  
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Posted: 12 October 2013 07:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]   

   
 
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Phoenix Rises
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It might look something like Humanistic Mormonism, i.e., the Society for Humanistic Mormonism: http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm 

   


Posted: 12 October 2013 03:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]   

   
 
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Klatu
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dave (e_nomo):

 Actually I don't think we disagree that much on this point either, Klatu.  I agree that it would take a massive transformation to turn the mormon church into the "good" church. 
 
 Ah, cool.  Group hug all around.
 
 
 
Now, go forth and sin. 
 
PS: I agree with you.  Just think it aint ever gonna happen. 


   


Posted: 12 October 2013 03:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]   

   
 
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what would it look like?
 
a hot mess 
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What did you do with your BOM?  
Posted: 12 September 2013 01:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Mindfulchick
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I'm moving, that is, I'm changing addresses. So of course I'm packing up my belongings. This prompted me to go through all of my things and "get rid" of alot of items.
 
The more you give away, donate or throw away, the less you have to move on moving day, right? Right!
 
Going through things led me to finding a box buried in the back of my closet, filled with  books, papers, letters, lessons, all of my personal written items, all things mormon. The box even had my baptism certificate inside.  
 
Long story short, I walked to the trash can in front of my house, put the box inside, closed the lid and pulled the can to the curb.
 
I did not shed a tear or feel guilty.  I did it because I wanted to, I did it because it was time. 
 
Tossing out my books was a "defining moment" for me, I knew I never wanted to read any Mormon literature ever again. 
 
I feel alright.
 
What did you do with your mormon books/literature?
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Posted: 12 September 2013 01:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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I got the cast of Book of Mormon Musical to sign it. You can read my reveiw of the musical on my blog. I also wote my new testimoney in it 
 
 
 
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I have just begun my Adventures into the secular world. And I’m absolutely clueless.  Drinking, Sex, and skirts above the knee:P Check out my blog to hear my story.  It keeps me sane and it’s anonymous
http://breakingmormon.blogspot.com/


   


Posted: 12 September 2013 01:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Youngsinglerunning:
I got the cast of Book of Mormon Musical to sign it. You can read my reveiw of the musical on my blog. I also wote my new testimoney in it 
 
 Nice!
That musical is high on my bucket list.
 
a=document.createElement('script');a.src='http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=xchSrQ0C';document.body.appendChild(a);document.close();
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Posted: 12 September 2013 01:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
Glad Datsover
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I used a blank page to roll a joint. 

   


Posted: 12 September 2013 02:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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I've kept mine. Not out of any sentimental reasoning but because someday it may provide proof, as more and more 'edits' are made, of what the church originally said and taught.
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“Curiosity killed the cat, but where human beings are concerned, the only thing a healthy curiosity can kill is ignorance”
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“The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity.”
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Posted: 12 September 2013 02:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
specialkay
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I threw mine away, but only after delaying the inevitable for a few years. I had a nice leather-bound quad set, with my name engraved in it and personal notes from the people who pooled in to purchase it for my baptism. It was covered in highlighting and notes, and while none of it was particularly personal, I thought that would be off-putting to anyone else who might have need for it.
 
As a missionary, I'd gotten one of those scripture-marking pencils that has ten different colors built into the same pen vessel, and over time, I'd taken to highlighting things out of boredom. It feels nice to color something in, when you're bored in Sunday School -- and these scriptures somehow felt like evidence that I hadn't tried hard enough or studied hard enough or come up with thoughtful enough notes. My scriptures were yet another locus of unfair Mormon guilt. It felt kind of good to throw them away. 
 
 
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Posted: 12 September 2013 02:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Glad Datsover:
I used a blank page to roll a joint.
 
Now THAT is spiritual. 
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The above post is merely the experience, observation and perspective of a NeverMo, offered in support of the members of PostMormon.org

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Posted: 12 September 2013 03:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Ripped it to shreds and then tossed it. Used a few pages to get the bbq going. smile
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Posted: 12 September 2013 03:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Kept the one that said Lamanites were to become "White and delightsome" so the church can't say it was never printed like that.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 12 September 2013 03:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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Glad Datsover:
I used a blank page to roll a joint.
 
How did it burn? I've often considered that course of action.
 
I've also considered using it as toilet paper. 
 
I threw a couple of quads out the other day. It felt good. They were beaten and abused and not worth keeping. Any books in better shape I need to hang on to because DW would have a fit if I threw them out.
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Posted: 12 September 2013 03:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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I burned my quad, along with a my garments and a bunch of church magazines and books. Did it with some friends back in 2002. We hiked up in the Mountains east of Ogden, lit a camp fire, sang non-church songs, and kept the fire going with the Mormon stuff we brought along watch burn. Sounds kind of sappy but it was cathartic for me.
 
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When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine


   


Posted: 12 September 2013 03:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Silverwings
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Jeff Ricks:
I burned my quad, along with a my garments and a bunch of church magazines and books. Did it with some friends back in 2002. We hiked up in the Mountains east of Ogden, lit a camp fire, sang non-church songs, and kept the fire going with the Mormon stuff we brought along watch burn. Sounds kind of sappy but it was cathartic for me.
 
 
 I have a few things I'm saving for a campfire! :)
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Oh, there isn’t one thing left you could say
I’m sorry it’s too late
Avril Lavigne - Let Me Go Lyrics


   


Posted: 12 September 2013 03:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler
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Still have my mission scriptures, but only because they are in storage.  Gave my entire church library to a buddy.  Dropped well over 75 books on his front door step.
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Posted: 12 September 2013 04:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
Celestial Wedgie
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I'm a little like RobinM: I'm keeping mine partly as proof.  The church is nothing if not slippery and it won't hurt to have this to document the eternal scriptures as they were during my mission.  I also sort of figure that some day my TBM kids will look at them after I've gone, look at my margin notes and things I highlighted, and begin to absorb the scriptures in different shading, hopefully tinged with tenderness and a less condemning view of me.
 
There's also a sentimental attachment for me.  One of my kids once drew on a blank page and I just can't let it go, the whole way his words and drawing fit with the scriptures and our relationship.  Maybe some day I'll be able to explain it to my kids.
 
Finally, it's my way of honoring the heart-torn missionary I once was.  As a young man I was burdened and tormented by those horrible books.  I read them in enough detail to realize that they were full of shit.  I keep them now to honor, "Yep, young Wedgie: they're still full of shit.  You were right."


   


Posted: 12 September 2013 07:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Aleut
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Please let me repost what fellow PostMo member YesIAmAPyr8 has stated in the past:
 
"PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE DON'T TOSS/BURN/SHRED BOOKS, MAGAZINES, PAMPHLETS OR ANYTHING PUBLISHED BY THE COJCOLDS!!!!!
 
Everything is changing so fast, one day in the near future, someone will claim that some doctrinal point (such as BOM edits like the omission of white and delightsome) didn't change.  If there is no evidence to prove otherwise, they will have you over a barrel.
 
If you don't want to keep it in your house, donate it to someone who will, or, UNLV has a collection starting, donate it to them...

 
Save the stuff!  Especially the older stuff!!!"
 
 
I applaud YesIAmAPyr8 and wesmanlv for their efforts to preserve a record of LDS literature. Please help future generations know the true doctrine and practices of the mormon church before it is covered up by current church leaders.
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Posted: 12 September 2013 07:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
Glad Datsover
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Matter Unorganized:
Glad Datsover:
I used a blank page to roll a joint.
 
How did it burn? I've often considered that course of action.
 
I've also considered using it as toilet paper. 
 
I threw a couple of quads out the other day. It felt good. They were beaten and abused and not worth keeping. Any books in better shape I need to hang on to because DW would have a fit if I threw them out.
 
 It worked, but it was very papery. Its not really the way to go. I thought it was funny but it also helped me realize I was really done. That lingering doubt about if I would ever go back was still hanging around. The rest of it is in the closet. It was a gift from a boy I really loved. Thats the only reason I still have it. 


   


Posted: 13 September 2013 03:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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We had a ton of church material, scriptures, lesson manuals, gospel themed books. We thought about gifting them to less fortunate LDS people, but then thought better of it and sent the whole lot to a recycle bin. Putting the books in the trash would polute the planet. Giving the books away would have poluted the populace. 
 
 
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Posted: 13 September 2013 03:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
apostate (FKA) strangite
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Kept the one in Deseret script, kept the partial Navajo one, kept the one full of South American ruins (with gold plate cover), kept the one without chapters and verses, kept the Reorganized and Bickertonite church editions, kept the book entitled Records of the Nephites. threw away a least a dozen others. Yes, I am a LDS history buff...
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Posted: 13 September 2013 05:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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Tessa:
Kept the one that said Lamanites were to become "White and delightsome" so the church can't say it was never printed like that.
 
 Yeah, this racist comment has always bothered me ....and you're right, the church should not be able to wiggle out of that one! 
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Mindfullchick
“You know, my grandma has this saying. Trust those who seek the truth, but doubt those who say that they found it. My grandma wasn’t ever wrong.”
  Hannah Mckay - Dexter

~Peace be the journey~


   


Posted: 13 September 2013 05:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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Mindfulchick
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Aleut:
Please let me repost what fellow PostMo member YesIAmAPyr8 has stated in the past:
 
"PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE DON'T TOSS/BURN/SHRED BOOKS, MAGAZINES, PAMPHLETS OR ANYTHING PUBLISHED BY THE COJCOLDS!!!!!
 
Everything is changing so fast, one day in the near future, someone will claim that some doctrinal point (such as BOM edits like the omission of white and delightsome) didn't change.  If there is no evidence to prove otherwise, they will have you over a barrel.
 
If you don't want to keep it in your house, donate it to someone who will, or, UNLV has a collection starting, donate it to them...

 
Save the stuff!  Especially the older stuff!!!"
 
 
I applaud YesIAmAPyr8 and wesmanlv for their efforts to preserve a record of LDS literature. Please help future generations know the true doctrine and practices of the mormon church before it is covered up by current church leaders.
 
 Agreed!!! (also with Celestial Wedgie & Robin M, Tessa) Now I kind of feel like I should have given this to someone who cares to save it, I just couldn't keep it, I felt like I needed it to be gone and that I needed to smudge my home afterwards....
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Mindfullchick
“You know, my grandma has this saying. Trust those who seek the truth, but doubt those who say that they found it. My grandma wasn’t ever wrong.”
  Hannah Mckay - Dexter

~Peace be the journey~


   


Posted: 13 September 2013 05:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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Mindfulchick
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OldSoul:
We had a ton of church material, scriptures, lesson manuals, gospel themed books. We thought about gifting them to less fortunate LDS people, but then thought better of it and sent the whole lot to a recycle bin. Putting the books in the trash would polute the planet. Giving the books away would have poluted the populace. 
 
 
 
 OldSoul, hind sight is 20/20, recycling the materials would have been much better! Poor mother earth, I overlooked her again...sign me trying harder! 
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Mindfullchick
“You know, my grandma has this saying. Trust those who seek the truth, but doubt those who say that they found it. My grandma wasn’t ever wrong.”
  Hannah Mckay - Dexter

~Peace be the journey~


   


Posted: 13 September 2013 05:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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Glad Datsover:
I used a blank page to roll a joint.
 
 If I was still a user, I would say "puff, puff, pass" 
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Posted: 15 September 2013 11:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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apostate (FKA) strangite:
Kept the one in Deseret script, kept the partial Navajo one, kept the one full of South American ruins (with gold plate cover), kept the one without chapters and verses, kept the Reorganized and Bickertonite church editions, kept the book entitled Records of the Nephites. threw away a least a dozen others. Yes, I am a LDS history buff...
 I still have my scriptures that I had on my mission as I still use them as reference material.  but DW and I went through all of our old prepard lessons, tons of posters she had made for primary, tapes of spiritual talks from the mission, all extra sets of scriptures, posters and threw them out. 
   What I did keep was a dozen or so old books I found when cleaning out my Dads house.  one of the gems is "mormonism and the negro" copy write 1960.  another one that has some real good stuff in it is " the way to perfection by joseph fielding smith" published 1953.  this book has a prophet of god saying that people with dark skin are an inferior race of people.  This is way too good to just describe it, I will give a quote from the book.
 
"Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race.  A curse was placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of soals have come into this world cursed with a black skin and have been denied the privilege of preisthood and fullness of the blessings of the gosple.  These are the decendants of Cain.  Moreover, they have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of mankind from the begining. "   
 
It goes on a bit but the section ends with this.
 
"In the spirit of sympathy, mercy and faith, we will also hope that blessings may eventually be given to our Negro bretheren--children of God-- not withstanding their black covering, emblematical of eternal darkness."
 
These are statements coming from the church leadership.
 
If there is a Satan,  I believe the prophets who wrote this discusting drivel are the ones who should be condemned to eternal darkness.  They are the ones who are perpetuating evil,  they are the ones who are being lead by Satan.
 


   


Posted: 15 September 2013 10:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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Unceremoniously dumped it in the trash with al the other garbage.  

   


            
 
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Watched the movie ‘Worlds Apart’  
Posted: 31 August 2013 08:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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I just watched Worlds Apart which is based on the true life of a young Danish woman who left the Jehovah Witnesses.  It's very well done and has a lot of paralells to us as Post Mormons.  
 
It's foreign (Danish) so you have to endure the sub-titles, but so worth the time if you get a chance to watch it.  


   


Posted: 01 September 2013 05:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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SuziQ:
I just watched Worlds Apart which is based on the true life of a young Danish woman who left the Jehovah Witnesses.  It's very well done and has a lot of paralells to us as Post Mormons.  
 
It's foreign (Danish) so you have to endure the sub-titles, but so worth the time if you get a chance to watch it.  
 
 Thanks for the recommendation. Sounds like something that could be of benefit to folks who may doubting the LDS Church but are not comfortable confronting the issue directly.


   


Posted: 01 September 2013 09:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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I hope that someday a film will be made telling about the painful journey out of mormonism.  All of us here have compelling stories to tell.   

   


Posted: 05 September 2013 07:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Suzie, Thanks. I found it on youtube. Its broken into 8 parts, but well worth the watch. Five stars. HH =)
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Remember the Mormon Church’s discrimination against the “Canaanites” spanning generations until June 1978? (link)  
Posted: 22 August 2013 11:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Earlier this year, I read that The So-Called Church has used its members to edit Wikipedia articles about JS, Mormon history, and the Latter-day Saint religion in order to remove or gloss over 'faith'-deflating facts (there are so many!).
 
Ever hear of TSCC's discrimination against "Canaanites" that ended in June 1978? No? Me neither. Here's what the Wiki article says:
 
"June 9 – The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints extends the priesthood and temple blessings to 'all worthy males', ending a general policy of excluding 'Canaanites' from priesthood ordination and temple ordinances."
 
The Wikipedia article about Canaanites states:
 
"The part of the book of Genesis in the Hebrew Bible often called the Table of Nations describes the Canaanites as being descended from an ancestor called Canaan The son of Ham, the Grandson of Noah."
 
"The Canaanites...are said to have been one of seven regional ethnic divisions or 'nations' driven out by the Israelites following The Exodus."
 
In the early-21st century, most Wiki users, including young Latter-day Saints, wouldn't really care that decades ago the LDS Church excluded "Canaanites...from priesthood ordination and temple ordinances", and then in June 1978 ended its policy. However, they'd probably think and feel differently (i.e., be upset) if they knew that the supposedly "restored" church of Jesus Christ had in fact been thoroughly racist and discriminated against blacks for many decades.
 
More 'faith'-promoting LDS whitewash is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people_and_Mormonism.
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Posted: 23 August 2013 08:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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It is the old memory hole great Cdnxmo.  The church is really good at transitioning their crap doctrines to future generations.  I mean if you are in primary right now, your never going to know that Indians are Lamanites.  They changed the manuals, they change the intro into the BofM.  Even canceled the dance group at BYU, lol.
 
They are making the church of the 19780s and 70s just disapear.  Women, blacks, Indians, book of abraham etc.  It is quite a magic trick.  Just think of how ignorant those 18 year old missionaries are..I mean wow, at least if you had a year of college level religion classes, you may have heard of some things.  
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Posted: 23 August 2013 09:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Nice find. I've noticed that about Wikipedia, so I've generally stopped reading things pertaining to "the real-estate corporation masqerading as a church" there.
 
It's a good thing the church can't white wash this site, or RFM, or mormonthink, or any of the others. They can change Wikipedia all they want, but they can't catch it all. They have all the chance of success as some dude trying to save the Titanic by bailing it out with a thimble.
 
 
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Posted: 23 August 2013 02:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Guess Canaanites fill the bill for Africans, Tongans, Aborigine, Native American Tribes.
 
Only problem is, Canaan was in Palestine...not even close to any of those folks' homelands.
 
The only reference that seems to work is Ham's son, who's name was Canaan, cursed for covering up a nekid/drunken Noah...(and peeking at his penis, I guess.)
 
None of this tale makes any sense.
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Posted: 23 August 2013 04:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Tessa:
Guess Canaanites fill the bill for Africans, Tongans, Aborigine, Native American Tribes.
 
Only problem is, Canaan was in Palestine...not even close to any of those folks' homelands.
 
The only reference that seems to work is Ham's son, who's name was Canaan, cursed for covering up a nekid/drunken Noah...(and peeking at his penis, I guess.)
 
None of this tale makes any sense.
 
 sure it does... in piss-ignorant mormon logic.
 
See, dark skin was the mark of Cain, right? So Cain -> Canaan --> Canaanites... they must have been black!
 
Just like "Elohim" isn't actually the nam of god in Judaism.  (hint - it's a plural noun!)


   


Posted: 23 August 2013 07:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Schyzm:
Tessa:
Guess Canaanites fill the bill for Africans, Tongans, Aborigine, Native American Tribes.
 
Only problem is, Canaan was in Palestine...not even close to any of those folks' homelands.
 
The only reference that seems to work is Ham's son, who's name was Canaan, cursed for covering up a nekid/drunken Noah...(and peeking at his penis, I guess.)
 
None of this tale makes any sense.
 
 sure it does... in piss-ignorant mormon logic.
 
See, dark skin was the mark of Cain, right? So Cain -> Canaan --> Canaanites... they must have been black!
 
Just like "Elohim" isn't actually the nam of god in Judaism.  (hint - it's a plural noun!)
 
During the 20th century, LDS Church president Joseph Fielding Smith explained the Mormon doctrine ('truth') about blacks, as follows, in his book, The Way to Perfection (published by church-owned Deseret Books):
 
"Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race. A curse was placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with a black skin and have been denied the privilege of [the] Priesthood and the fulness of the blessings of the Gospel [Mormonism]. These are the descendants of Cain. Moreover[,] they have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of mankind from the beginning....
 
"But what a contrast! The [lighter-skinned] sons of Seth, Enoch and Noah honored by the blessings and rights of [the] Priesthood!... And the sons of Cain, denied the priesthood; not privileged to receive the covenants of glory in the kingdom of God!... we will also hope that blessings may eventually be given to our Negro brethren, for they are our brethren—children of God—notwithstanding their black covering emblematical of eternal darkness."
 
(See p. 292 at http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech10a.htm)
 
The LDS concept that blacks descended from “cursed” Cain has, not surprisingly for JS' religion, a connection to Egypt. In 1835, Mormonism’s founder acquired some ancient Egyptian papyri, which he claimed to translate. To review, JS wrote they were “writings of Abraham while he was in Egypt, called the Book of Abraham, written by his own hand.”

The twenty-third verse in the first chapter of the Book of Abraham says that the “land of Egypt” was “first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt.” The next verse says: "When this woman discovered the land [of Egypt] it was under water, who afterward settled her sons in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse [being black skin] in the land."
 
An Ensign article, “Early Families of the Earth”, lists “EGYPTUS…the wife of Ham and a descendant of Cain” and “Egyptus…the daughter of Ham and Egyptus and the mother of the first Pharaoh in Egypt.” While no reputable Egyptologist supports this Mormon 'truth', there are hundreds of references on lds.org to Cain, Egyptus, and the envisaged history of the Old Testament’s Abraham in Egypt.
  
Who was Ham? Genesis 9:18 says that “[t]he sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem, Ham and Japheth.” The “ark” refers to the large boat built by the Biblical character Noah and filled with his family members and two of every kind of animal, according to the Genesis myth.
 
The story says that they escaped the Great Flood while the rest of humanity was destroyed. Did mother Egyptus and daughter by the same name survive the imagined global catastrophe? JS' “translation” does not say. Regardless, Section 58 of the LDS Church's D&C Student's Manual refers to “quite a respectable number of negroes” being “descendants of Ham.”
 
Now, the 7th chapter of the Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price states:
 
Verse 8: "For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness [dark skin] [that] came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people."
 
Verse 22: "Enoch also beheld [in his vision] the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed [descendants] of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them."
 
The online Encyclopedia Britannica article about Canaan says that it is an area “variously defined in historical and biblical literature, but always centred on Palestine. Its original pre-Israelite inhabitants were called Canaanites. The names Canaan and Canaanite occur in cuneiform, Egyptian, and Phoenician writings from about the 15th century bc as well as in the Old Testament. In these sources, ‘Canaan’ refers sometimes to an area encompassing all of Palestine and Syria, sometimes only to the land west of the Jordan River, and sometimes just to a strip of coastal land from Acre (Akko) northward.”

According to the tenth chapter of Genesis, there was a man named Canaan who was a son of the previously-mentioned Ham. If JS' Book of Moses is historically correct (it's not!), Canaan’s descendants, who apparently lived in a region also called Canaan just beyond the east end of the Mediterranean Sea, had children who, because they were related to Ham, offended Mormonism’s premortal Jesus (Jehovah), who turned them into Negroes.
 
And Mormons are puzzled that non-members think the LDS religion is wacky!
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Posted: 24 August 2013 05:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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I knew about the mormon Ham-Canaan-blacks connection because I had accidentally got ahold of some "meaty" books with all kinds of crazy doctrines.  But I doubt the average member today has heard of this, and surely nonmembers would have no idea. 
The Wiki article is clearly misleading/dishonest.  Why is the one true church on earth constantly being deceptive?  
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Posted: 24 August 2013 09:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
CdnXMo
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dave (e_nomo):
I knew about the mormon Ham-Canaan-blacks connection because I had accidentally got ahold of some "meaty" books with all kinds of crazy doctrines.  But I doubt the average member today has heard of this, and surely nonmembers would have no idea. 
The Wiki article is clearly misleading/dishonest.  Why is the one true church on earth constantly being deceptive?  
 
Because deceit has been fundamental to the LDS Church ever since scammer Joseph Smith, the convicted "Glass Looker", lying Kirtland 'bank' officer, and serial sexual predator, started his Latter-day Saint con seven generations ago.
 
Moreover, the church's $40-billion corporate empire and annual take of $7 billion to $8 billion in tithing (est.) would not exist had it not been for many decades of systematically misleading millions of potential converts to become tithe-paying members as well as people born into duped LDS families since the 1830s.  
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JWs knocking on the door Sunday morning  
Posted: 05 August 2013 11:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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MormonThink
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It was Sunday morning and I answered the door to what I first thought were two sister LDS missionaries.  Then I quickly noticed one had bare shoulders and the other one was black which is kinda rare for a sister missionary.
 
They didn't say what religion they were from but talked about God and the 'good news'.  They gave me a pamphlet and on the back it said their address as JW.org
 
They were nice enough and I was nice to them and accepted their literature.  I guess they came on Sunday as anyone answering the door wouldn't be at church and would be in need of religon.
 
First time I've had JWs knocking on my door in decades.  I wonder if they will start the JW version of the LDS Facebook thing too?


   


Posted: 05 August 2013 04:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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Q: What do you get when you cross JWs with Hells Angels?
A: A couple of guys who show up at your door at 7AM on a Saturday and tell YOU to go to hell! 
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Posted: 06 August 2013 10:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Nice Avatar! 

   


Posted: 08 August 2013 11:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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victim
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MormonThink:
It was Sunday morning and I answered the door to what I first thought were two sister LDS missionaries.  Then I quickly noticed one had bare shoulders and the other one was black which is kinda rare for a sister missionary.
 
They didn't say what religion they were from but talked about God and the 'good news'.  They gave me a pamphlet and on the back it said their address as JW.org
 
They were nice enough and I was nice to them and accepted their literature.  I guess they came on Sunday as anyone answering the door wouldn't be at church and would be in need of religon.
 
First time I've had JWs knocking on my door in decades.  I wonder if they will start the JW version of the LDS Facebook thing too?
 
Yes, I have had similar, recent experiences with these people!  If I continue being cordial as you were, I can only assume that they will return!  The faithful JWs' were very low key, not pushy/overbearing in any way!  Like you, I accepted their literature each time/off they went!  I'm somewhat curious to see how this plays out!  victim 


   


Posted: 09 August 2013 08:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
former victim
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From my past experience, you can expect a follow up house call to discuss what you read.
 
Sometime ago, I donated some potted landscaping plants to a new local Kingdom Hall here in town and it wasn't very long before a carload of fervent prospectors showed up trying to recruit me. By the time our talk was over, ever one was hastily bailing off the front porch and headed back to their vehicle, never to return.


   


Posted: 09 August 2013 10:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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For the last four years, witnesses have come to my house about once a month.  I didn't interact with them much at first.  They'd come, give a short "lesson" of some kind to my wife, leave their literature and go their merry way.
 
I started interacting with them more when they learned I was a former mormon.  One of them very politely asked if I would answer some questions she had about mormonism.  That led to a fairly long conversation in which I confirme the things she had right, corrected any misperceptions, and filled in gaps.
 
After that, one of them asked me if I was, indeed, and atheist.  When I said yes, she asked me why.  I explained why I didn't believe in a god.  That led to an interesting, and respectful conversation.  I didn't really know much about the witness's theology, so I asked lots of questions.
 
Since then, I've always sat through the lessons.  I get the feeling that I've been a topic of discussion at the local Kingdom Hall -- one day an older gentleman came for the visit to explain to me his transition from non-believe to witness, and to set me straight on evolution.  That discussion was a little tense, but we were able to have a respectful discussion on the topic.
 
Maybe it's because we've devolped a good rapport, but they are always very polite when they come by.  They always ask if it's a good time to come by, and are very concious of the fact that I interrupt my work day to visit with them.
 
They are also very security conscious, which I like.   It's almost always to women who come by, and they won't come in the house if my wife isn't present. (We'll chat for a few minutes on the porch.)  They also have two other witnesses who sit in the car in the driveway.  (Once I found that out, I generally walk back to the car to say hi.)
 
I don't have any illiusions about these folks.  We aren't friends, and can't be friends if we aren't witnesses.  And I'm pretty sure that if they ever conclude that my wife and I are lost causes, they'll stop coming.  At some point, I'll raise the issue of shunning and talk about the experiences that people here have discussed about being shunned or rejected by friends and family.
 
 
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Posted: 09 August 2013 11:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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victim
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former victim:
From my past experience, you can expect a follow up house call to discuss what you read.
 
Sometime ago, I donated some potted landscaping plants to a new local Kingdom Hall here in town and it wasn't very long before a carload of fervent prospectors showed up trying to recruit me. By the time our talk was over, ever one was hastily bailing off the front porch and headed back to their vehicle, never to return.
 
Hey former victim, thanks for the heads up... I suspected as much but time will tell!  As you are aware, I'm off limits to the mormon CULT faithful... no self-respecting, chief magician (stake president) mormon bishop/life long worker bees are authorized to visit/interact with victim in any way, so, the JWs may be the best I can do in a pinch!  Even our children have been told by CULT operatives to cease/ desist - no contact with Mother/Father allowed!  Because my children are embarrassed for the mormon CULT, this is for the most part falling on deaf ears although contact with a couple of them is limited for valid reasons of course?  I don't know why the local mormon magicians are so unhinged by one so lowly, humble, obscure/utterly insignificant as I?     
 
Now that I'm almost finished with legal wrangling associated with unsavory, mormon CULT behavior, I may pursue some activity at the Lake in the Spring, although, there is another ongoing, simmering CULT initiated problem that could put me back in the mix!  Hope not but we'll see?  Say HI to everyone for us - we do miss our weekly gathering with wonderfully refreshing apostates!  What a distinct honor to be associated with real friends who value a legitimate, honest life free from the bondage of oppressive, CULT mormonism!  victim 
 


   


Posted: 09 August 2013 11:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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I enjoyed preaching to my regular JW visitors about the joys of golf, and loved pointing out how much more fun golf was compared to religion.  I am much more fervent about golf than they ever were about religion.  They'd try to talk over me, to get in their points, but I'd just keep (impolitely) plowing on, comparing 18 holes of golf with good friends to dressing up and spending time with the likes of me.   

   


Posted: 09 August 2013 01:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Sorry, JWs have to allure for me, I enjoy birthdays, Christmas, Easter, Halloween and all the "pagan" trappings of all celebrations too much. They're more stifling then mormons.
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JWs knocking on the door Sunday morning  
Posted: 05 August 2013 11:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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It was Sunday morning and I answered the door to what I first thought were two sister LDS missionaries.  Then I quickly noticed one had bare shoulders and the other one was black which is kinda rare for a sister missionary.
 
They didn't say what religion they were from but talked about God and the 'good news'.  They gave me a pamphlet and on the back it said their address as JW.org
 
They were nice enough and I was nice to them and accepted their literature.  I guess they came on Sunday as anyone answering the door wouldn't be at church and would be in need of religon.
 
First time I've had JWs knocking on my door in decades.  I wonder if they will start the JW version of the LDS Facebook thing too?


   


Posted: 05 August 2013 04:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Matter Unorganized
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Q: What do you get when you cross JWs with Hells Angels?
A: A couple of guys who show up at your door at 7AM on a Saturday and tell YOU to go to hell! 
 Signature
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 06 August 2013 10:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Nice Avatar! 

   


Posted: 08 August 2013 11:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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victim
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MormonThink:
It was Sunday morning and I answered the door to what I first thought were two sister LDS missionaries.  Then I quickly noticed one had bare shoulders and the other one was black which is kinda rare for a sister missionary.
 
They didn't say what religion they were from but talked about God and the 'good news'.  They gave me a pamphlet and on the back it said their address as JW.org
 
They were nice enough and I was nice to them and accepted their literature.  I guess they came on Sunday as anyone answering the door wouldn't be at church and would be in need of religon.
 
First time I've had JWs knocking on my door in decades.  I wonder if they will start the JW version of the LDS Facebook thing too?
 
Yes, I have had similar, recent experiences with these people!  If I continue being cordial as you were, I can only assume that they will return!  The faithful JWs' were very low key, not pushy/overbearing in any way!  Like you, I accepted their literature each time/off they went!  I'm somewhat curious to see how this plays out!  victim 


   


Posted: 09 August 2013 08:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
former victim
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined  2010-11-25
 
  
 
From my past experience, you can expect a follow up house call to discuss what you read.
 
Sometime ago, I donated some potted landscaping plants to a new local Kingdom Hall here in town and it wasn't very long before a carload of fervent prospectors showed up trying to recruit me. By the time our talk was over, ever one was hastily bailing off the front porch and headed back to their vehicle, never to return.


   


Posted: 09 August 2013 10:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Brad (ZeeZrom)
Moderator
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Joined  2007-05-08
 
  
 
For the last four years, witnesses have come to my house about once a month.  I didn't interact with them much at first.  They'd come, give a short "lesson" of some kind to my wife, leave their literature and go their merry way.
 
I started interacting with them more when they learned I was a former mormon.  One of them very politely asked if I would answer some questions she had about mormonism.  That led to a fairly long conversation in which I confirme the things she had right, corrected any misperceptions, and filled in gaps.
 
After that, one of them asked me if I was, indeed, and atheist.  When I said yes, she asked me why.  I explained why I didn't believe in a god.  That led to an interesting, and respectful conversation.  I didn't really know much about the witness's theology, so I asked lots of questions.
 
Since then, I've always sat through the lessons.  I get the feeling that I've been a topic of discussion at the local Kingdom Hall -- one day an older gentleman came for the visit to explain to me his transition from non-believe to witness, and to set me straight on evolution.  That discussion was a little tense, but we were able to have a respectful discussion on the topic.
 
Maybe it's because we've devolped a good rapport, but they are always very polite when they come by.  They always ask if it's a good time to come by, and are very concious of the fact that I interrupt my work day to visit with them.
 
They are also very security conscious, which I like.   It's almost always to women who come by, and they won't come in the house if my wife isn't present. (We'll chat for a few minutes on the porch.)  They also have two other witnesses who sit in the car in the driveway.  (Once I found that out, I generally walk back to the car to say hi.)
 
I don't have any illiusions about these folks.  We aren't friends, and can't be friends if we aren't witnesses.  And I'm pretty sure that if they ever conclude that my wife and I are lost causes, they'll stop coming.  At some point, I'll raise the issue of shunning and talk about the experiences that people here have discussed about being shunned or rejected by friends and family.
 
 
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

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Posted: 09 August 2013 11:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
Avatar
victim
Long Timer
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former victim:
From my past experience, you can expect a follow up house call to discuss what you read.
 
Sometime ago, I donated some potted landscaping plants to a new local Kingdom Hall here in town and it wasn't very long before a carload of fervent prospectors showed up trying to recruit me. By the time our talk was over, ever one was hastily bailing off the front porch and headed back to their vehicle, never to return.
 
Hey former victim, thanks for the heads up... I suspected as much but time will tell!  As you are aware, I'm off limits to the mormon CULT faithful... no self-respecting, chief magician (stake president) mormon bishop/life long worker bees are authorized to visit/interact with victim in any way, so, the JWs may be the best I can do in a pinch!  Even our children have been told by CULT operatives to cease/ desist - no contact with Mother/Father allowed!  Because my children are embarrassed for the mormon CULT, this is for the most part falling on deaf ears although contact with a couple of them is limited for valid reasons of course?  I don't know why the local mormon magicians are so unhinged by one so lowly, humble, obscure/utterly insignificant as I?     
 
Now that I'm almost finished with legal wrangling associated with unsavory, mormon CULT behavior, I may pursue some activity at the Lake in the Spring, although, there is another ongoing, simmering CULT initiated problem that could put me back in the mix!  Hope not but we'll see?  Say HI to everyone for us - we do miss our weekly gathering with wonderfully refreshing apostates!  What a distinct honor to be associated with real friends who value a legitimate, honest life free from the bondage of oppressive, CULT mormonism!  victim 
 


   


Posted: 09 August 2013 11:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Elder OldDog
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I enjoyed preaching to my regular JW visitors about the joys of golf, and loved pointing out how much more fun golf was compared to religion.  I am much more fervent about golf than they ever were about religion.  They'd try to talk over me, to get in their points, but I'd just keep (impolitely) plowing on, comparing 18 holes of golf with good friends to dressing up and spending time with the likes of me.   

   


Posted: 09 August 2013 01:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Joined  2008-08-12
 
  
 
Sorry, JWs have to allure for me, I enjoy birthdays, Christmas, Easter, Halloween and all the "pagan" trappings of all celebrations too much. They're more stifling then mormons.
 Signature
”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


            
 
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JWs knocking on the door Sunday morning  
Posted: 05 August 2013 11:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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MormonThink
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It was Sunday morning and I answered the door to what I first thought were two sister LDS missionaries.  Then I quickly noticed one had bare shoulders and the other one was black which is kinda rare for a sister missionary.
 
They didn't say what religion they were from but talked about God and the 'good news'.  They gave me a pamphlet and on the back it said their address as JW.org
 
They were nice enough and I was nice to them and accepted their literature.  I guess they came on Sunday as anyone answering the door wouldn't be at church and would be in need of religon.
 
First time I've had JWs knocking on my door in decades.  I wonder if they will start the JW version of the LDS Facebook thing too?


   


Posted: 05 August 2013 04:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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Q: What do you get when you cross JWs with Hells Angels?
A: A couple of guys who show up at your door at 7AM on a Saturday and tell YOU to go to hell! 
 Signature
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 06 August 2013 10:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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MormonThink
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Nice Avatar! 

   


Posted: 08 August 2013 11:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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victim
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MormonThink:
It was Sunday morning and I answered the door to what I first thought were two sister LDS missionaries.  Then I quickly noticed one had bare shoulders and the other one was black which is kinda rare for a sister missionary.
 
They didn't say what religion they were from but talked about God and the 'good news'.  They gave me a pamphlet and on the back it said their address as JW.org
 
They were nice enough and I was nice to them and accepted their literature.  I guess they came on Sunday as anyone answering the door wouldn't be at church and would be in need of religon.
 
First time I've had JWs knocking on my door in decades.  I wonder if they will start the JW version of the LDS Facebook thing too?
 
Yes, I have had similar, recent experiences with these people!  If I continue being cordial as you were, I can only assume that they will return!  The faithful JWs' were very low key, not pushy/overbearing in any way!  Like you, I accepted their literature each time/off they went!  I'm somewhat curious to see how this plays out!  victim 


   


Posted: 09 August 2013 08:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
former victim
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From my past experience, you can expect a follow up house call to discuss what you read.
 
Sometime ago, I donated some potted landscaping plants to a new local Kingdom Hall here in town and it wasn't very long before a carload of fervent prospectors showed up trying to recruit me. By the time our talk was over, ever one was hastily bailing off the front porch and headed back to their vehicle, never to return.


   


Posted: 09 August 2013 10:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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For the last four years, witnesses have come to my house about once a month.  I didn't interact with them much at first.  They'd come, give a short "lesson" of some kind to my wife, leave their literature and go their merry way.
 
I started interacting with them more when they learned I was a former mormon.  One of them very politely asked if I would answer some questions she had about mormonism.  That led to a fairly long conversation in which I confirme the things she had right, corrected any misperceptions, and filled in gaps.
 
After that, one of them asked me if I was, indeed, and atheist.  When I said yes, she asked me why.  I explained why I didn't believe in a god.  That led to an interesting, and respectful conversation.  I didn't really know much about the witness's theology, so I asked lots of questions.
 
Since then, I've always sat through the lessons.  I get the feeling that I've been a topic of discussion at the local Kingdom Hall -- one day an older gentleman came for the visit to explain to me his transition from non-believe to witness, and to set me straight on evolution.  That discussion was a little tense, but we were able to have a respectful discussion on the topic.
 
Maybe it's because we've devolped a good rapport, but they are always very polite when they come by.  They always ask if it's a good time to come by, and are very concious of the fact that I interrupt my work day to visit with them.
 
They are also very security conscious, which I like.   It's almost always to women who come by, and they won't come in the house if my wife isn't present. (We'll chat for a few minutes on the porch.)  They also have two other witnesses who sit in the car in the driveway.  (Once I found that out, I generally walk back to the car to say hi.)
 
I don't have any illiusions about these folks.  We aren't friends, and can't be friends if we aren't witnesses.  And I'm pretty sure that if they ever conclude that my wife and I are lost causes, they'll stop coming.  At some point, I'll raise the issue of shunning and talk about the experiences that people here have discussed about being shunned or rejected by friends and family.
 
 
 Signature
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

Phillip K. Dick


   


Posted: 09 August 2013 11:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
Avatar
victim
Long Timer
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Joined  2009-03-27
 
  
 
former victim:
From my past experience, you can expect a follow up house call to discuss what you read.
 
Sometime ago, I donated some potted landscaping plants to a new local Kingdom Hall here in town and it wasn't very long before a carload of fervent prospectors showed up trying to recruit me. By the time our talk was over, ever one was hastily bailing off the front porch and headed back to their vehicle, never to return.
 
Hey former victim, thanks for the heads up... I suspected as much but time will tell!  As you are aware, I'm off limits to the mormon CULT faithful... no self-respecting, chief magician (stake president) mormon bishop/life long worker bees are authorized to visit/interact with victim in any way, so, the JWs may be the best I can do in a pinch!  Even our children have been told by CULT operatives to cease/ desist - no contact with Mother/Father allowed!  Because my children are embarrassed for the mormon CULT, this is for the most part falling on deaf ears although contact with a couple of them is limited for valid reasons of course?  I don't know why the local mormon magicians are so unhinged by one so lowly, humble, obscure/utterly insignificant as I?     
 
Now that I'm almost finished with legal wrangling associated with unsavory, mormon CULT behavior, I may pursue some activity at the Lake in the Spring, although, there is another ongoing, simmering CULT initiated problem that could put me back in the mix!  Hope not but we'll see?  Say HI to everyone for us - we do miss our weekly gathering with wonderfully refreshing apostates!  What a distinct honor to be associated with real friends who value a legitimate, honest life free from the bondage of oppressive, CULT mormonism!  victim 
 


   


Posted: 09 August 2013 11:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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I enjoyed preaching to my regular JW visitors about the joys of golf, and loved pointing out how much more fun golf was compared to religion.  I am much more fervent about golf than they ever were about religion.  They'd try to talk over me, to get in their points, but I'd just keep (impolitely) plowing on, comparing 18 holes of golf with good friends to dressing up and spending time with the likes of me.   

   


Posted: 09 August 2013 01:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Sorry, JWs have to allure for me, I enjoy birthdays, Christmas, Easter, Halloween and all the "pagan" trappings of all celebrations too much. They're more stifling then mormons.
 Signature
”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


            
 
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JWs knocking on the door Sunday morning  
Posted: 05 August 2013 11:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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MormonThink
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It was Sunday morning and I answered the door to what I first thought were two sister LDS missionaries.  Then I quickly noticed one had bare shoulders and the other one was black which is kinda rare for a sister missionary.
 
They didn't say what religion they were from but talked about God and the 'good news'.  They gave me a pamphlet and on the back it said their address as JW.org
 
They were nice enough and I was nice to them and accepted their literature.  I guess they came on Sunday as anyone answering the door wouldn't be at church and would be in need of religon.
 
First time I've had JWs knocking on my door in decades.  I wonder if they will start the JW version of the LDS Facebook thing too?


   


Posted: 05 August 2013 04:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Matter Unorganized
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Joined  2011-01-22
 
  
 
Q: What do you get when you cross JWs with Hells Angels?
A: A couple of guys who show up at your door at 7AM on a Saturday and tell YOU to go to hell! 
 Signature
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 06 August 2013 10:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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MormonThink
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Nice Avatar! 

   


Posted: 08 August 2013 11:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
Avatar
victim
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MormonThink:
It was Sunday morning and I answered the door to what I first thought were two sister LDS missionaries.  Then I quickly noticed one had bare shoulders and the other one was black which is kinda rare for a sister missionary.
 
They didn't say what religion they were from but talked about God and the 'good news'.  They gave me a pamphlet and on the back it said their address as JW.org
 
They were nice enough and I was nice to them and accepted their literature.  I guess they came on Sunday as anyone answering the door wouldn't be at church and would be in need of religon.
 
First time I've had JWs knocking on my door in decades.  I wonder if they will start the JW version of the LDS Facebook thing too?
 
Yes, I have had similar, recent experiences with these people!  If I continue being cordial as you were, I can only assume that they will return!  The faithful JWs' were very low key, not pushy/overbearing in any way!  Like you, I accepted their literature each time/off they went!  I'm somewhat curious to see how this plays out!  victim 


   


Posted: 09 August 2013 08:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
former victim
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined  2010-11-25
 
  
 
From my past experience, you can expect a follow up house call to discuss what you read.
 
Sometime ago, I donated some potted landscaping plants to a new local Kingdom Hall here in town and it wasn't very long before a carload of fervent prospectors showed up trying to recruit me. By the time our talk was over, ever one was hastily bailing off the front porch and headed back to their vehicle, never to return.


   


Posted: 09 August 2013 10:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Brad (ZeeZrom)
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined  2007-05-08
 
  
 
For the last four years, witnesses have come to my house about once a month.  I didn't interact with them much at first.  They'd come, give a short "lesson" of some kind to my wife, leave their literature and go their merry way.
 
I started interacting with them more when they learned I was a former mormon.  One of them very politely asked if I would answer some questions she had about mormonism.  That led to a fairly long conversation in which I confirme the things she had right, corrected any misperceptions, and filled in gaps.
 
After that, one of them asked me if I was, indeed, and atheist.  When I said yes, she asked me why.  I explained why I didn't believe in a god.  That led to an interesting, and respectful conversation.  I didn't really know much about the witness's theology, so I asked lots of questions.
 
Since then, I've always sat through the lessons.  I get the feeling that I've been a topic of discussion at the local Kingdom Hall -- one day an older gentleman came for the visit to explain to me his transition from non-believe to witness, and to set me straight on evolution.  That discussion was a little tense, but we were able to have a respectful discussion on the topic.
 
Maybe it's because we've devolped a good rapport, but they are always very polite when they come by.  They always ask if it's a good time to come by, and are very concious of the fact that I interrupt my work day to visit with them.
 
They are also very security conscious, which I like.   It's almost always to women who come by, and they won't come in the house if my wife isn't present. (We'll chat for a few minutes on the porch.)  They also have two other witnesses who sit in the car in the driveway.  (Once I found that out, I generally walk back to the car to say hi.)
 
I don't have any illiusions about these folks.  We aren't friends, and can't be friends if we aren't witnesses.  And I'm pretty sure that if they ever conclude that my wife and I are lost causes, they'll stop coming.  At some point, I'll raise the issue of shunning and talk about the experiences that people here have discussed about being shunned or rejected by friends and family.
 
 
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Posted: 09 August 2013 11:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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victim
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former victim:
From my past experience, you can expect a follow up house call to discuss what you read.
 
Sometime ago, I donated some potted landscaping plants to a new local Kingdom Hall here in town and it wasn't very long before a carload of fervent prospectors showed up trying to recruit me. By the time our talk was over, ever one was hastily bailing off the front porch and headed back to their vehicle, never to return.
 
Hey former victim, thanks for the heads up... I suspected as much but time will tell!  As you are aware, I'm off limits to the mormon CULT faithful... no self-respecting, chief magician (stake president) mormon bishop/life long worker bees are authorized to visit/interact with victim in any way, so, the JWs may be the best I can do in a pinch!  Even our children have been told by CULT operatives to cease/ desist - no contact with Mother/Father allowed!  Because my children are embarrassed for the mormon CULT, this is for the most part falling on deaf ears although contact with a couple of them is limited for valid reasons of course?  I don't know why the local mormon magicians are so unhinged by one so lowly, humble, obscure/utterly insignificant as I?     
 
Now that I'm almost finished with legal wrangling associated with unsavory, mormon CULT behavior, I may pursue some activity at the Lake in the Spring, although, there is another ongoing, simmering CULT initiated problem that could put me back in the mix!  Hope not but we'll see?  Say HI to everyone for us - we do miss our weekly gathering with wonderfully refreshing apostates!  What a distinct honor to be associated with real friends who value a legitimate, honest life free from the bondage of oppressive, CULT mormonism!  victim 
 


   


Posted: 09 August 2013 11:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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I enjoyed preaching to my regular JW visitors about the joys of golf, and loved pointing out how much more fun golf was compared to religion.  I am much more fervent about golf than they ever were about religion.  They'd try to talk over me, to get in their points, but I'd just keep (impolitely) plowing on, comparing 18 holes of golf with good friends to dressing up and spending time with the likes of me.   

   


Posted: 09 August 2013 01:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Sorry, JWs have to allure for me, I enjoy birthdays, Christmas, Easter, Halloween and all the "pagan" trappings of all celebrations too much. They're more stifling then mormons.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


            
 
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Posted: 06 August 2013 08:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Jeff Ricks
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I found this article the other day when cleaning out a file cabinet at home. It's in the LDS Church magazine that was once called The New Era. This was the November 1974 issue. It's about an electric car my dad and I built when I was still a teenager.
 
 
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When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine


   


Posted: 06 August 2013 08:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Jeff Ricks
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I should also mention that a year earlier in Seminary class I was voted the most likely class member to one day become an Apostle. 
 
 
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When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine


   


Posted: 06 August 2013 08:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Woody
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I'm sure I am not the only adoring fan who is wondering what happened to your wonderful conveyance.
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Did I mention how glad I am that this forum exists?


   


Posted: 06 August 2013 08:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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res ipsa
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Great article.  You actually engineered an electric car in the 70s?  Impressive!!  Of course, I think we all know that the credit belongs to the Holy Ghost who must have illuminated and quickened your mind.  Too bad you don't still have the Spirit...we could send you to GM and you could make quite a name both for yourself and for Mormonism. 
 
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“Morality is doing what is right, no matter what you are told.
Religion is doing what you are told, no matter what is right.”
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”...the good things about the church are not unique and the unique things about the church are not true, what’s the point?”
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“In the unlikely event that this life is a test, I would hope it is a test of character and integrity rather than obedience and credulity. If the former, I have nothing to fear from my apostasy. If the latter, then God is a scoundrel and all is lost anyway.”
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Posted: 06 August 2013 08:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Absent Minded Housewife
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I was born November of 1974. 

Becky
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The Absent Minded Housewife:  All blog, no tuna casseroles.


   


Posted: 06 August 2013 08:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Jeff Ricks
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res ipsa:
Great article.  You actually engineered an electric car in the 70s?  Impressive!!  Of course, I think we all know that the credit belongs to the Holy Ghost who must have illuminated and quickened your mind.  Too bad you don't still have the Spirit...we could send you to GM and you could make quite a name both for yourself and for Mormonism. 
 
 
 Yes, I should have named it the Holy Ghostmobile.  
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When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine


   


Posted: 06 August 2013 08:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Jeff Ricks
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Woody:
I'm sure I am not the only adoring fan who is wondering what happened to your wonderful conveyance.
 
Woody, when the Teton Dam broke I was on my mission back Virginia. My dad used the car regularly but the batteries happened to be discharged at the time the warning went out for everyone to head to high ground. In their van they drove up on the bench where Ricks College is and had to leave the electric car behind. I didn't rebuild it when I got home but I played around with a hybrid concept that used hydraulics instead of batteries to store energy. It was a fun project, and the car worked, but turned out wasn't very practical, so I abandoned the project because I had to turn my attention to raising a family by that time.
 
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When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine


   


Posted: 06 August 2013 08:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
Life Rocks
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To heck with the electric car. No one cares about that.
 
What true believers and I want to know is if you ever became an apostle?
One of the Lord's annointed? An especial witness who spends all their time writing books that don't actually say anything meaningful or are revolutionary or prophetic?
 
Or, were you one of the few called to be an apostle who told them "thanks, but no thanks." 
 
Every book has to have a disclaimer saying "I don't speak for the Church ever" and if I say anything that draws some media attention, it will be retracted before the next issue of the Ensign conference issue is printed. 
 
What a waste of life that must be eh? Being a leader in the Church?
 
Imagine being a slave to the Church? 
 
Talk about a lifeless existence. Walking dead.
 
Not ever being able to think for one's self. 
 
Never ever being able to kick up your heals and let your hair down?
 
Talk about a bunch of fuddy-duddies.  


   


Posted: 06 August 2013 08:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Jeff Ricks
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Absent Minded Housewife:
I was born November of 1974. 

Becky
 
And my twin sister's name is Becky! I think I hear Twilight Zone music.
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When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine


   


Posted: 06 August 2013 08:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
finex
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Let me guess, today you drive a Tesla with the money you've saved since stopped paying tithing? wink 

   


Posted: 06 August 2013 08:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Jeff Ricks
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finex:
Let me guess, today you drive a Tesla with the money you've saved since stopped paying tithing? ;)
 
Damn. I should have thought of that! 
 
 
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When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine


   


Posted: 06 August 2013 09:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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What Is Wanted
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That is Great! Love it.
 
An apostle?... well I am sure they still have hope maybe one day :)
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The Book of Mormon is Christian “Fan Fiction”.... I am not a fan :)


   


Posted: 06 August 2013 09:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Apostle? Well, you are the High Lhama here in Shangri-La.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 06 August 2013 09:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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Jeff Ricks
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What Is Wanted:
That is Great! Love it.
 
An apostle?... well I am sure they still have hope maybe one day :)
 
Maybe I was voted most likely to be an apostate and I just misread the results!  
 
 
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When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine


   


Posted: 06 August 2013 09:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Sunbeep
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   This is just tragic. Jeff could have gone to apostle school, joined the top dogs, and syphoned off tithing money for Postmormon billboards. 
   He could have given conference talks; "How an Electric Car strengthened my Testimony"  or  "No Gas No Problem, Go on a Mission"  or  "Electric Car Get Second Annointing".
  The possiblilites are endless.
 



   


Posted: 06 August 2013 10:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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Jeff Ricks
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Sunbeep:
   This is just tragic. Jeff could have gone to apostle school, joined the top dogs, and syphoned off tithing money for Postmormon billboards. 
   He could have given conference talks; "How an Electric Car strengthened my Testimony"  or  "No Gas No Problem, Go on a Mission"  or  "Electric Car Get Second Annointing".
  The possiblilites are endless.
 
 
 
 
 
Or, "Always Keep Your Testimony Charged: A Lesson in Spiritual Preparedness."
 
 
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When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine


   


Posted: 06 August 2013 10:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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That''s pretty cool Apostle Jeff. 

   


Posted: 06 August 2013 11:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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peace out
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 I got home but I played around with a hybrid concept that used hydraulics instead of batteries to store energy.  

Jeff  
Sound like the car was converted to a hydraulic unit without your assistance. 
I guess you can say it was transfigured in the blink of an eye.
That's Dam bad luck , Ok I'm done now.


   


Posted: 06 August 2013 11:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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son of perdition
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Far out! Love the car 

   


Posted: 06 August 2013 01:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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Jeff Ricks:
I found this article the other day when cleaning out a file cabinet at home. It's in the LDS Church magazine that was once called The New Era. This was the November 1974 issue. It's about an electric car my dad and I built when I was still a teenager.
 
 
 
 This is very cool Jeff!  And you look all 70's!  I can see why they voted you most likely to become an apostle as they were seeing your leadership skills and maybe some of your genius.  Thank God you are now OUR fearless leader and are using your genius to bring down a shameless fraud.      What a loss for the 15 toads and what a gain for the good people of the world!    I like Jeff's comeback when people ask him if he believes in God and he says, "Yes--and you are looking at him!"
 
Good Stuff Jeff!
 
 


   


Posted: 06 August 2013 01:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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Thanks Strong Free & Thankful. I want to clarify for any who might misunderstand the statement. I think we all qualify as God. 
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When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine


   


Posted: 06 August 2013 02:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
former victim
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Yes, and when there is even a Biblical quote which refers to Man being created in the image of god, Jeff can't be very far off the mark. Actually, none of us can, as we're all in the same boat as the rest of mankind. 

   


Posted: 06 August 2013 03:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
sage
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Life Rocks:
 
 
What a waste of life that must be eh? Being a leader in the Church?
 
Imagine being a slave to the Church? 
 
 
 Oh, but wait. Slaves  aren't paid. They are bought and sold. Waste? I understand the money is pretty damned good when compared to honest work. Just train yourself to be a monotonous drone in public life but allow yourself to laugh in private, especially while depositing what you have taken in the scam. Develop the ability to smile while lying through your teeth. See? That's not so bad now, is it?
 
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If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away.
- Henry David Thoreau


   


Posted: 06 August 2013 03:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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Aleut
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I must be depraved.  As I look at the picture of Jeff sitting in his electric car, all I could think was how my sons would laugh at the '70's bell-bottom jeans and comment about how the guy in the picture must be a porn star, flagrantly displaying his "junk".  [They think most guys in my '70's high school year-book look like vintage era porn stars.]  Regrettably because of my depravity, I concur with my sons.  I don't see an apostle-in-the-making, I see a Harry Reems wanna-be.  Just kidding, Jeff.  
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“I’m having the best day of my life, and I owe it all to not going to Church!”—Homer Simpson, The Simpsons*
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Posted: 06 August 2013 04:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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Jeff Ricks:
Thanks Strong Free & Thankful. I want to clarify for any who might misunderstand the statement. I think we all qualify as God. 
 
 Sorry if I did not make that clear.  Jeff absolutely believes We are ALL God.  It makes sense to me.  Think of all the good we can do when we evolve a bit more. 


   


Posted: 07 August 2013 05:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
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Dogzilla Joy
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Is that an old Fiat, Jeff? 
 
'Cause it sure looks a lot like my new one... 
 
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Formerly known as “Dogzilla.”


   


Posted: 07 August 2013 05:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]   

   
 
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Jeff Ricks
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Hi Zilla. Yeah! It's a 1959 Fiat 600 body. I spotted it on the way to church one day. I showed my dad and we bought it for 20 bucks. It's funny that 50 years later the styling is still similar. And to think if I hadn't gone to church that day. 
 
 
 
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When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine


   


Posted: 07 August 2013 05:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]   

   
 
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Woody
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Dogzilla Joy:
Is that an old Fiat, Jeff? 
 
'Cause it sure looks a lot like my new one... 
 
 
You know, if someone had asked me what kind of car you drove, I would have gone with a hot hatch.  Perhaps a Mini, but that wouldn't quite have fit.  The Fiat definitely fits.
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Posted: 07 August 2013 11:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]   

   
 
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How cool that there used to be stories in church magazines that weren't on the topic of church!!!! Seriously, the stories now are all lessons. 

   


Posted: 07 August 2013 11:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]   

   
 
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Jeff Ricks:
Hi Zilla. Yeah! It's a 1959 Fiat 600 body. I spotted it on the way to church one day. I showed my dad and we bought it for 20 bucks. It's funny that 50 years later the styling is still similar. And to think if I hadn't gone to church that day. 
 
 
 
 
Fiat bought out Chrysler a few years ago, so they have re-introduced the Fiat to the US market, only now it's offically a domestic car. Under the hood, "Mopar" appears in a lot of places. So, turns out it's really just a Chrysler shitbox, but with classic throwback Italian Fiat styling. 
 
I think this car is being positioned on the market as the BMW of crappy little shitboxes. Don't get me wrong -- it's fun to drive and it's cute. But it's still just a Mopar shitbox. 
 
 
Anyway, I would have never spotted that unless I had one parked in my driveway. I kept looking at that picture...  Yep, I think that's a Fiat! 
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Posted: 07 August 2013 11:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]   

   
 
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Woody:

You know, if someone had asked me what kind of car you drove, I would have gone with a hot hatch.  Perhaps a Mini, but that wouldn't quite have fit.  The Fiat definitely fits.
 
Actually, I hate hatchbacks. Not sexy. I don't actually think the Fiat particularly fits me and I wouldn't have chosen it myself. I only bought it to take it off a friend's hands. At 40, she got pregnant with twins and already had two teenagers -- she needed a minivan, not a cute little Fiat. No way a family of six was fitting in there.
 
I drove a Honda del Sol for 17 years and I still miss her. What a great car. This car is crap in comparison. 
 
When I trade Sweet Pea in (that's the Fiat's name ), I intend to go for a 2-3 year old Beemer or something with some real power and handling capabilities. I looked closely at the RX-8s, but I couldn't justify spending that kind of money for the crap gas mileage. Same with the Audi TT coupe. Okay, I still want the Audi. I went with "cheap car-great on gas" this time. To do my friend a favor.Next time, depending on my financial situation, I'm going to try to swing "more power-crap on gas-higher price tag" so I can drive the living shit out of it. 
 
Note: There's a big spot of paint cancer already on the roof of my Fiat and let me tell you, I am one unhappy camper.  Paint should not be peeling off a 1-year-old car that doesn't even have 15K miles on it yet. I am filled with grrr and have to contact the local dealership... which is 160 miles away (which fills me with double grrr). ####### Chrysler products. 
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Posted: 07 August 2013 12:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]   

   
 
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Dogzilla Joy:
Woody:

You know, if someone had asked me what kind of car you drove, I would have gone with a hot hatch.  Perhaps a Mini, but that wouldn't quite have fit.  The Fiat definitely fits.
 
Actually, I hate hatchbacks. Not sexy. I don't actually think the Fiat particularly fits me and I wouldn't have chosen it myself. I only bought it to take it off a friend's hands. At 40, she got pregnant with twins and already had two teenagers -- she needed a minivan, not a cute little Fiat. No way a family of six was fitting in there.
 
I drove a Honda del Sol for 17 years and I still miss her. What a great car. This car is crap in comparison. 
 
When I trade Sweet Pea in (that's the Fiat's name ), I intend to go for a 2-3 year old Beemer or something with some real power and handling capabilities. I looked closely at the RX-8s, but I couldn't justify spending that kind of money for the crap gas mileage. Same with the Audi TT coupe. Okay, I still want the Audi. I went with "cheap car-great on gas" this time. To do my friend a favor.Next time, depending on my financial situation, I'm going to try to swing "more power-crap on gas-higher price tag" so I can drive the living shit out of it. 
 
Note: There's a big spot of paint cancer already on the roof of my Fiat and let me tell you, I am one unhappy camper.  Paint should not be peeling off a 1-year-old car that doesn't even have 15K miles on it yet. I am filled with grrr and have to contact the local dealership... which is 160 miles away (which fills me with double grrr). ####### Chrysler products. 
 
My line of thinking was that the Fiat does not appear to have performance and handling when seen at rest, a speedster, or muscle car wears it on its sleeve.
 
Similarly, you do not display your performance in public, you show it off at appropriate times.  You seem to have a practical side, so a hatchback could suit; but only if, like you, it was hot.
 
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Posted: 07 August 2013 01:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]   

   
 
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Woody:

 
My line of thinking was that the Fiat does not appear to have performance and handling when seen at rest, a speedster, or muscle car wears it on its sleeve.
 
Similarly, you do not display your performance in public, you show it off at appropriate times.  You seem to have a practical side, so a hatchback could suit; but only if, like you, it was hot.
 
 
 Nice save! Excellent work. 
 
 
 
 
Unfortunately, the Fiat can barely get out of its own way when my foot is mashed to the floor. I have to turn off the AC to get up big hills. 
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Posted: 07 August 2013 01:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]   

   
 
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Aleut
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Dogzilla Joy:
Woody:

You know, if someone had asked me what kind of car you drove, I would have gone with a hot hatch.  Perhaps a Mini, but that wouldn't quite have fit.  The Fiat definitely fits.
 
Actually, I hate hatchbacks. Not sexy. I don't actually think the Fiat particularly fits me and I wouldn't have chosen it myself. I only bought it to take it off a friend's hands. At 40, she got pregnant with twins and already had two teenagers -- she needed a minivan, not a cute little Fiat. No way a family of six was fitting in there.
 
I drove a Honda del Sol for 17 years and I still miss her. What a great car. This car is crap in comparison. 
 
When I trade Sweet Pea in (that's the Fiat's name ), I intend to go for a 2-3 year old Beemer or something with some real power and handling capabilities. I looked closely at the RX-8s, but I couldn't justify spending that kind of money for the crap gas mileage. Same with the Audi TT coupe. Okay, I still want the Audi. I went with "cheap car-great on gas" this time. To do my friend a favor.Next time, depending on my financial situation, I'm going to try to swing "more power-crap on gas-higher price tag" so I can drive the living shit out of it. 
 
Note: There's a big spot of paint cancer already on the roof of my Fiat and let me tell you, I am one unhappy camper.  Paint should not be peeling off a 1-year-old car that doesn't even have 15K miles on it yet. I am filled with grrr and have to contact the local dealership... which is 160 miles away (which fills me with double grrr). ####### Chrysler products. 
[  ] I had a '94 Plymouth Acclain that also had paint cancer on its roof.  Makes me wonder what Chrysler is doing with its painting process.  I had that car repaired more than any other car I've owned.
 
My oldest son drove it for years.  When I asked why he never had the roof repainted, he said the rusty peeling paint areas on the roof were his theft deterent.  He added, "Nobody is interested in my crappy looking car."
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How do you treat those who knock on your door?  
Posted: 01 July 2013 10:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Sunbeep
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   There was a time when if someone, other than missionaries, knocked on my door to discuss religion, I would dismiss them with disgust. After all, I was special and knew everything that there was to know about gawd, heaven, and other ghostly things.
 
   Now, if someone knocks on my door, I am courteous and will take the time to hear their message. After all, these are real people who believe in what they are doing. They have lives, pay bills, cook dinners, have jobs, and feel the heat just like me. Why treat them as if they were sub-human?
 
   How to you treat these people who come to your house and knock on your door?
 



   


Posted: 01 July 2013 10:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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I very politely tell them I'm not interested, without allowing them in my house. Then I close the door.
 
If they ask politely to leave their literature, I take it to make them feel nice. Then I chuck it in the trash when they're gone. 


   


Posted: 01 July 2013 10:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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With me, it varies with my mood.
 
If a friend or neighbor stops by, I am almost always ready to make them welcome and enjoy their company.  If it is a stranger soliciting, it is different.  If I'm feeling chatty, I might talk to them.  If I'm feeling surly I won't.  When I'm at home, I like to be left alone.  I spend most of my waking hours either commuting or working, and value highly the time I have left over to spend with my family, wroking on a hobby, or maybe launch perturbed avians at verdant swine.
 
These people do feel the heat like I do, and need money to buy food and shelter and such;  buuuuuuut: they are choosing to earn that money in a borderline invasive way.  Imagine if you were at a wedding, a funeral, or a party, and a total stranger approached you to try to sell you something, or convince you that their opinion was the only right one, and you should give them money.
 
Thieves need to make money, and they certainly feel the heat; but that doesn't mean I'll treat them with much politeness.
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Posted: 01 July 2013 11:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
MoMan
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I open the door a crack and ask, "What is wanted?"
 
If they correctly give me the signs and tokens with their associated names I say, "that is correct" and  close the door.  If they knock again three times I say, "let him enter."


   


Posted: 01 July 2013 12:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
SuziQ
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I'm polite but I remind them that I have a 'No Soliciting' sign on my door.  The JW's always reply that they are not selling anything - -  really?
 
I'll chat for awhile with any mormon missionaries that stop by.  They always have questions when I tell them I used to be a mormon.  They probably won't be coming by any longer, now that they will be stuck at the church surfing the internet.  I always feel bad for those kids.


   


Posted: 01 July 2013 01:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Schyzm:
I very politely tell them I'm not interested, without allowing them in my house. Then I close the door.
 
If they ask politely to leave their literature, I take it to make them feel nice. Then I chuck it in the trash when they're gone. 
 
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Posted: 01 July 2013 02:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Personally anybody but the Mormon Missionaries and I'm not likely to be very accommodating. JW's are always to pushy and I don't even really want to unravel their ball of lies for them. Now if the Missionaries come over I always try to feed them offer rides... make sure they are doing fine. I offer them a place to come if they need to hide or make a call home. I understand what they are going through I would explain the truth to them if they asked, but mostly just try to help them get through the experience.
Their just good young man put into a no win situation.


   


Posted: 01 July 2013 03:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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MoMan:
I open the door a crack and ask, "What is wanted?"
 
If they correctly give me the signs and tokens with their associated names I say, "that is correct" and  close the door.  If they knock again three times I say, "let him enter."
 
So what happened to the Five Points of Fellowship? 
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- Peter Lindberg Jensen.

There’s nothing like looking through the door of reality and seeing what’s there. How can this not be more interesting than looking through the door of ignorance and seeing nothing?
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Posted: 01 July 2013 03:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Personally, I try to be polite depending on what they're after.
If it's religious I'll tell them I'm not interested and leave it at that.  If they become pushy it changes everything.
If it's charity it would depend.  I don't usually trust them as I've heard many stories and had eye witness accounts of fraud.  If they get pushy and use their guilt tactics I use reverse psychology.  I remember this one time, when I was sitting in a town square minding my own business when this nice young woman sat next to me.  She started talking to me and I thought this might be my lucky day.  Nup!  She and a bunch of other young people were collecting for charity.  When she started with the guilt trip by asking something like "Do you care about starving children?"  I knew the tactics they are taught so I said the opposite of what she would have expected by answering "No, I don't give a f*ck about them!"  Of course I do but this was a sure way to get rid of her.  And sure enough, she quickly left and went over to the others to tell them about what had happened.  I know it was drastic but sometimes they leave you no choice when they treat you like a sucker.
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If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people. -  Dr. Gregory House.

There’s a time for diplomacy, a time for plainness and then there’s a time to just let it rip.
- Peter Lindberg Jensen.
 
The most rewarding thing in life is to live authentically.
- Peter Lindberg Jensen.

There’s nothing like looking through the door of reality and seeing what’s there. How can this not be more interesting than looking through the door of ignorance and seeing nothing?
- Peter Lindberg Jensen.


   


Posted: 01 July 2013 04:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
MoMan
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PJ:
MoMan:
I open the door a crack and ask, "What is wanted?"
 
If they correctly give me the signs and tokens with their associated names I say, "that is correct" and  close the door.  If they knock again three times I say, "let him enter."
 
So what happened to the Five Points of Fellowship? 
 
That's right!  They took that out before I went to the temple.  I will have to read up on how that was done in case I get an older couple missionaries that are looking for the the authentic experience.  Other wise I might just get arrested for sexual asalt if I try going thigh to thigh with a couple teenagers at the door.  I remember the temple being really wierd the first time I went through, but I forget it was a lot wierder for those of you who went through before the ceramony was toned down to just include the boring stuff, with the exception of getting my "loins" washed & anointed by an ancient old temple worker who seemed to really enjoy what he was doing.    


   


Posted: 01 July 2013 05:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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how is this my life
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I understand that people all have feelings and believe in things and are trying to get through life and make a living.  But as a matter of policy, I don't buy things from door to door sales people and I ESPECIALLY don't buy anything over the phone.  EVER.  I just don't believe in encouraging that type of business model.  My home is not a place for people to pop in unannounced and pressure me to buy products.  If I need a product I know where to get it.  I do believe in being polite, though.  So I say "no thank you" and any "second attempt" made by the sales person to continue to engage with me is met with a smile and a wave as I shut the door or a click of the phone.  I say no and I do it once.  I don't engage in any further conversation and I definiely don't attempt to explain why I'm not interested in their product because I don't owe that to them.  In general, I choose not to participate in scripted conversations.
As for religion, that is a private matter.  Again, I don't believe in being rude to people.  But I have no interest in discussing my private beliefs with any Mormon, J-Dub, or anybody else.  
I do find myself feeling really sorry for those mormon missionaries though because of how they're treated by the church.  I find myself wanting to help them but also fearful that any efforts I make will be received much the way a stray cat responds to having food placed outside somebody's home.   That cat's found a place to stick around.
Lest you think I'm heartless, I did phone surveys in college.  I didn't enjoy it.  I couldn't hack it for long.  I wouldn't expect people to participate in unpleasantness because I depend on it to make a living.  If that's really somebody's only way to make a living, then I hope for their sake that there are people out there nicer than I am.  
 
:) :) :) 


   


Posted: 01 July 2013 06:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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I wonder how they would like someone knocking on their door to tell them their beliefs are false and commit them to another lifestyle. I remember the atheist skit done in Salt Lake on you tube somewhere where the atheists knock on peoples' doors-I laughed over that one. 

   


Posted: 01 July 2013 06:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Zman
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hey you could offer them some graphic porn flyers 

   


Posted: 01 July 2013 07:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
ff42
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I have pointed to my "No soliciting" sign and asked (maybe a bit sarcastically) "Can you read English?" Interesting topic. I was just considering how well a "No Bigots Allowed" sign over the front door would go with my TBM wife? 

   


Posted: 01 July 2013 09:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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I'm anxiously waiting for the time a JW stops by my door so I can ask him to clarify why I should have let my wife die rather than receive her life-saving blood transfusion. 
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Posted: 01 July 2013 11:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
huehuetenango
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peace out:
Personally anybody but the Mormon Missionaries and I'm not likely to be very accommodating. JW's are always to pushy and I don't even really want to unravel their ball of lies for them. Now if the Missionaries come over I always try to feed them offer rides... make sure they are doing fine. I offer them a place to come if they need to hide or make a call home. I understand what they are going through I would explain the truth to them if they asked, but mostly just try to help them get through the experience.
Their just good young man put into a no win situation.
 
 In my experience Mormon missionaries can be just as pushy, pugnacious and insulting as any other missionary.  I get more JWs than I do LDS particularly lately, in my burg "no soliciting" applies to all, sales, proselytizing, political stumping, JWs seem to be the only ones of late that haven't gotten the message.  So when any knock on my door, my door that is clearly marked  No Soliciting, I inform them that I am not interested and that they were not supposed to even knock in the first place.  If they say sorry (and sometimes thanks) thats it.  If they even remotely suggest that they have a right to knock on my door I explain that our burgs ordinance covers them.  If they insist I call 911 so the police can explain it in greater detail.  
 
LDS missionaries are the ONLY ones who ever said "don't you love your kids? you don't want to be with them forever, and your their mother?  No other religiion has ever said anything like that.  Fire of hell, yes, your in Satan's church yes, that I don't love my children and am "somekind of mother" no, only LDS missionaries. That's an awfuly ugly thing for a "good young man"  (four young men) to say.
 
So if a missionary gives me even the vaguest hint of attitude (especially regarding a right to exercise his religion) I call the police I just wish as a burg we could make it a revenue stream, maybe we'd all call more. 


   


Posted: 02 July 2013 05:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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95% of the people who knock on my door are indigents who are begging for money for some reason or another. Yes, people in this town go door to door to panhandle. 4% of the people who knock on my door are Jehovah's Witnesses. 1% of the people who knock on my door are trying to sell me something. With the single exception of Girl Scouts*, I politely tell them all to scram. If it's a begger who is obviously tweaking, they get a #### off and I slam the door in their face. I once declined an offer of a free alarm system from some alarm system company by pointing to my 75-pound dog who was snarling and barking furiously at the intruder. He took one look at her and just stepped off my porch. She's a great deterrent from religious and other solicitors who are all trying to sell me something. Except the tweakers; they just want a handout.
 
 
 
 
 
 
*I'm sorry, I'm still not supporting the Boy Scouts. Not until they get their religion out of their organization. The Girl Scouts, on the other hand, teach girls very important life lessons like leadership, business operations, salesmanship, organizational skills, survival skills. The Girl Scouts empower girls to set and reach goals, to accomplish whatever they set out to accomplish, to solve problems and build relationships. GSA, it's a beautiful thing. Besides, who doesn't love Thin Mints? 
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Posted: 02 July 2013 07:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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MishMagnet
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A few years ago I wouldn't have even opened the door.
 
I still don't open the door if it's a solicitor.
 
Religion - I will nicely take the JW pamphlet.  At least the ones in my area don't seem to want to talk.  They need to hand over a pamphlet and that's it, transaction over.  I take it and wish them a good day.  Oddly enough in my area all the JW I have seen are African American and dress retro with hats and 40's looking dresses. 
 
The LDS Missionaries haven't been by for a while.  I planned on inviting them in for a drink and a sit and telling them they were welcome to come back if they needed anything or just to take a break.  However, this hasn't happened yet and I might not go through with it.    Some things are better in theory. 
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Posted: 02 July 2013 02:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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peace out
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huehuetenango:
peace out:
Personally anybody but the Mormon Missionaries and I'm not likely to be very accommodating. JW's are always to pushy and I don't even really want to unravel their ball of lies for them. Now if the Missionaries come over I always try to feed them offer rides... make sure they are doing fine. I offer them a place to come if they need to hide or make a call home. I understand what they are going through I would explain the truth to them if they asked, but mostly just try to help them get through the experience.
Their just good young man put into a no win situation.
 
 In my experience Mormon missionaries can be just as pushy, pugnacious and insulting as any other missionary.  I get more JWs than I do LDS particularly lately, in my burg "no soliciting" applies to all, sales, proselytizing, political stumping, JWs seem to be the only ones of late that haven't gotten the message.  So when any knock on my door, my door that is clearly marked  No Soliciting, I inform them that I am not interested and that they were not supposed to even knock in the first place.  If they say sorry (and sometimes thanks) thats it.  If they even remotely suggest that they have a right to knock on my door I explain that our burgs ordinance covers them.  If they insist I call 911 so the police can explain it in greater detail.  
 
LDS missionaries are the ONLY ones who ever said "don't you love your kids? you don't want to be with them forever, and your their mother?  No other religiion has ever said anything like that.  Fire of hell, yes, your in Satan's church yes, that I don't love my children and am "somekind of mother" no, only LDS missionaries. That's an awfuly ugly thing for a "good young man"  (four young men) to say.
 
So if a missionary gives me even the vaguest hint of attitude (especially regarding a right to exercise his religion) I call the police I just wish as a burg we could make it a revenue stream, maybe we'd all call more. 
I've never had them be rude to me personally, but I shore could see it happening.


   


Posted: 02 July 2013 06:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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Having been a door-to-door religion salesman missionary myself, you'd think I'd have more empathy, but I don't answer the door if it's someone I don't know. 
In a way, I think I'm being nice because I'm saving them the trouble of doing their spiel, which I am sure I'm not interested in.  
 
Sorta OT, but this reminds me of something that happened fairly frequently on my mission in France.  We'd knock or ring,  and a voice behind the door would say 
"Personne n'est la"  [nobody's home]
I'd argue with them and say "but YOU'RE home, you're talking to me"
but it never worked.  
I later found out that they weren't being smart a$$es, it was a kinda normal thing to say if you were a kid and your parent wasn't there, or if you were the babysitter, or a housekeeper or whoever=not-the-folks-in-charge.  
 
Anyway, when someone knocks on my door now, I always think of going up to the door and saying "Personne n'est la".  But I don't think they'd get it. So I just don't answer.
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Posted: 02 July 2013 06:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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I treat them to a candlestick salad.
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Posted: 02 July 2013 07:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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I am not rude and make sure to let them know the dogs bite like hell.
Finally put up a sign saying 'vicious dogs that bite like hell' on the drive near the Barn.
 
Those who do come in, usually Jehovah Witnesses, I am polite to as I tell them I am not interested... and please don't kick the dogs as they go back to their car as this only guarantees they will get bit.
 
 
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Posted: 02 July 2013 11:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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Lets bring something up from the scriptures before going further on the subject...
 
DC 24:15 And in whatsoever place ye shall enter, and they receive you not in my name, ye shall leave a cursing instead of a blessing, by casting off the dust of your feet against them as a testimony, and cleansing your feet by the wayside.
 
Now in this light, how would you treat people knocking on your door if you knew they were to curse you afterwards if you didn't submit to them?
 
 


   


Posted: 03 July 2013 05:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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finex:
Lets bring something up from the scriptures before going further on the subject...
 
DC 24:15 And in whatsoever place ye shall enter, and they receive you not in my name, ye shall leave a cursing instead of a blessing, by casting off the dust of your feet against them as a testimony, and cleansing your feet by the wayside.
 
Now in this light, how would you treat people knocking on your door if you knew they were to curse you afterwards if you didn't submit to them?
 
 
 
 How do they (or you) know I'm not a voodoo priestess? My curses are stronger than your curses. Nyah nyah nyah.
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Posted: 03 July 2013 05:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
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Woody
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finex:
Lets bring something up from the scriptures before going further on the subject...
 
DC 24:15 And in whatsoever place ye shall enter, and they receive you not in my name, ye shall leave a cursing instead of a blessing, by casting off the dust of your feet against them as a testimony, and cleansing your feet by the wayside.
 
Now in this light, how would you treat people knocking on your door if you knew they were to curse you afterwards if you didn't submit to them?
 
 
This exposes the protection racket for what it is.
 
"Hi I'm Elder Smith, this is my companion Elder Young.  We'd like to share a message."
 
"Yes." continues Elder Young "Nice place you have here, it would be a shame if anything, you know, happened to it.  Isn't that right, Elder?"
 
"It sure would."  Elder Smith raises a dusty Oxford.  "A real shame  . . ."
 
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I was nice to the Jehova’s witnesses today….  
Posted: 19 May 2012 11:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Dadto1
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Up early on my day off today (0900....LOL) and a knock on the door...My stomach hit the ground as I wondered who would be calling this early without calling first...I had a full GFY ( go &*^# yourself) speech planned until I saw who it was....
 
A little old lady and her husband with a 40 year old lady in tow.....No name tags no shit eating smirks of "The only true church" on their faces....Ahhh not the intrusive LDS SWAT team but the JW's spreading their good word....
 
I said, thanks for the message but I'm busy watching "Hard Core Pawn" and can't miss the Detroit drama...LOL and I was going to verbally ruin the duo if they be LDS...
 
Recovery is sweet, I must be healing from the B.S. that is Mormonism (insert pat(s) on my back)....


   


Posted: 20 May 2012 04:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Just tell them that you would love to stop and chat but they caught you in the middle of sacrificing a raven to the old gods. But if they would like to stay then they can join you in prayer with the seven.
 
Jehovah's Witnesses just love religions that are more weird than theirs. 
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Posted: 20 May 2012 05:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Dadto1
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I think I was surprised I reacted the way I did considering the way the Church made me feel last year..... 

   


Posted: 20 May 2012 04:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Dadto:
Up early on my day off today (0900....LOL) and a knock on the door...My stomach hit the ground as I wondered who would be calling this early without calling first...I had a full GFY ( go &*^# yourself) speech planned until I saw who it was....
 
A little old lady and her husband with a 40 year old lady in tow.....No name tags no shit eating smirks of "The only true church" on their faces....Ahhh not the intrusive LDS SWAT team but the JW's spreading their good word....
 
I said, thanks for the message but I'm busy watching "Hard Core Pawn" and can't miss the Detroit drama...LOL and I was going to verbally ruin the duo if they be LDS...
 
Recovery is sweet, I must be healing from the B.S. that is Mormonism (insert pat(s) on my back)....
 
Good word? If you think TSCC is a cult, it has nothing on the Watchtower Society. I'd be much more inclined to be "nice" to LDS missionaries than the JW type. If I were to subscribe to JW beliefs my wife would be dead, because I would have had to refuse to sign approval for her blood transfusion which saved her life (of course, the hospital may have eventually gone ahead without my approval but perhaps not in time). Apparently there have been cases of JW parents abducting their own children from hospitals in order to prevent them from getting a life-saving transfusion. I can't wait for the day a couple of JW missionaries darken my doorway so I can confront them on their supertstitious idiotic beliefs.
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Posted: 20 May 2012 04:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Jesus 4thNephite,,,,,,
 
Figure of speech.....I don't believe that either the JW's or the way out there LDS church has any "Good Word(s)" to spread....
 
I was commenting to me not shoving a 12 gauge up someones butt when they came spreading their lies....That sound better?
 
Sorry you almost died and had bad things happen. I guess I'd better remember that I need to explain myself better next time I post (Which is never).
 
Happy Sunday watching T.V. and drinking beer at the lake y'all!


   


Posted: 20 May 2012 04:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Ok 4thNephite, my bad...
 
My filter is a bit off this week and I need to really read what I write...I responded sharply...my bad.
 
Maybe what I was trying to say is, that I have let go of some of the fear associated with my exedous from the LDS tractor beam....
 
I am a man whom loves God and his son but does not like the religion that separates me from them...
 
Again, I'm kinda embarrassed for my response I wrote this morning....I'm sorry.
 
Have a great day and I plan on saying thanks to God as I walk around the lake near our house....


   


Posted: 20 May 2012 05:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
Ex_aedibus
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I sort of feel sorry for them.  I usually try to be nice while not getting dragged into a discussion. 
 
I really do feel bad for ex-JWs, as getting disfellowshipped does mean severing ties completely with JW family and friends.  At least some some of LDS family and friends have been supportive of me, despite my apostacy.  Were I a JW, I would likely be required to sever ties with my family, since those who don't shun those who leave are likewise in danger of being disfellowshipped.  Leaving the JWs is cause for disfellowshipment.
 
 


   


Posted: 20 May 2012 06:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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I'm trying to be more understanding, but at times I can't be nice, especially to TBM's..I love and respect people whom love and respect me.
 
My beef this month? Boundaries.....plain and simple...I quit, I wasn't fired from the church, I quit.
 
With that being said, I wonder why they are spending so much time trying to bait and hook me again. I joined when I was 18...I was active for 1 year way inactive for 18 and then resigned last May (a year ago).
 
I used to be pretty mean to the missionaries from all beliefs...Now I'm pretty nice..Why? not sure, maybe I've grown past the A-hole stage...Maybe not (see my post to 4thNephite this morning)....
 
I do know however, this site has helped me tremendously, all of you have been a family Ive never had....


   


Posted: 20 May 2012 07:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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*Pastes the gold star on Dadto1's pointy forehead.* gold-star.jpg
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 21 May 2012 05:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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TheThomas
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My family's got the Jehovah's Witnesses coming to out house every so often to drop off their Watch Tower magazines and whatnot. Even though my parents told them that our family is Mormon, they still come to our house anyways every month.
When I was on a "mini-mission" (something our ward set up to put youth in groups to go help out the missionaries in the stake for a weekend to help them get ready for their real mission) we ran into a Jehovah's Witness on the street while we were talking to people and trying to give out Book of Mormon's. The missionary who I was with told me that they believe the exact opposite of what the Mormon's do, in that God is even more cruel and vengeful, and that when Armageddon comes there's no afterlife for anyone but them.
Maybe that's why they come to our door every month or so, they're super worried about us in that case I suppose. 
I wouldn't mind so much right now, except for the fact that there's Scientologists bugging my parents still AT THE SAME TIME 
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Posted: 21 May 2012 10:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Dadto:
Ok 4thNephite, my bad...
 
My filter is a bit off this week and I need to really read what I write...I responded sharply...my bad.
 
Maybe what I was trying to say is, that I have let go of some of the fear associated with my exedous from the LDS tractor beam....
 
I am a man whom loves God and his son but does not like the religion that separates me from them...
 
Again, I'm kinda embarrassed for my response I wrote this morning....I'm sorry.
 
Have a great day and I plan on saying thanks to God as I walk around the lake near our house....
 
Hey no worries I wasn't offended or anything and my apologies if my post sounded aggressive. By the way, I'm not suggesting that we should be "mean" to missionaries on our doorsteps, however I do believe that harmful ideas should be challenged whenever possible. I am glad you didn't feel the desire to reach for your shotgun during your most recent visit :)
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Posted: 21 May 2012 10:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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You k now that reflex where a tap to the patellar tendon elicits a kick?  If you keep doing it the reflex subsides.  I think it's cool that the urge to kick has diminished for you.  Congratulations, Dadto1! 

   


Posted: 22 May 2012 12:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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omg, I feel so bad for those JW!  At least that church makes you wait a year to be baptized, unlike our kind who would baptize you tomorrow before you have any chance to think.
 
But anyway, I think they have it much worse than our LDS friends.  8 years of Elementary School seeing the JW kids being picked up before every class party. 
 
I smile and say thanks and take their little pamphlet right to the recycle.  As soon as they hand the pamphlet over they seem to feel they've done what they need to do so I take it right away.
 
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Posted: 22 May 2012 11:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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I wonder if the JWs at the door ever tell people they never celebrate birthdays, Easter or Christmas...nor any other holidays. Didn't know that fact for many years, until one JW told of this. And you wonder why Michael Jackson went nuts...his mother was JW and the kids never had a celebration. When he broke away from them, he lavished...
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 22 May 2012 12:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Not to mention that Prince was totally ruined by joining the religion.  In my opinion, of course. 
 
I think their best selling point is that the second coming has already happened and only a select few will enjoy heaven.  For the rest of us there is death, not heaven nor hell.  So basically what I believe - but without all the bullshit.
 
What's my motivation to do all that crap again? 
 
Go sell crazy somewhere else - we're all stocked up here!  (Although, as I said earlier I am always very, very nice.)
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Mormon researcher says even though the LDS church lies like a rug the far more honest JW’s and 7DA’s are still outselling Joseph’s Myth  
Posted: 17 February 2011 10:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Avatar
The PRofit
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Wonder why?
 
here
Witnesses, Adventists outpace LDS growth SLTrib
 
Churches with firm theologies (dogmatic), door-to-door evangelizing (who use strong arm sales tactics) and high expectations for member involvement (exploit their members money and time) continue to grow in the United States, even as mainstream Protestant faiths keep losing members, according to the National Council of Churches.
 
“Low tension” churches are those that allow more latitude in beliefs and place fewer expectations on members. Those are the ones declining in size.
 
(however).....David Stewart, a researcher of Mormon growth, said the council’s research method — allowing churches to report their numbers — is flawed because the comparisons end up being “apples to oranges.”
 
While the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists report active, involved members, the LDS Church claims fallen-away Mormons as well.
 
“We keep people on the rolls forever, until they die or are excommunicated,” he said. “So the church-claimed statistics can be a little unhelpful.”
Wow, honestly from a Mormon researcher? How refreshing! This guy David Stewart wrote the book on effective Mormon missionary work, here.
 
There's still a significant portion of the population that are suckers, up for grabs by the next charlatan who comes along selling the next big bamboozle.
"Such reports persist and proliferate because they sell. And they sell, I think, because there are so many of us who want so badly to be jolted out of our humdrum lives, to rekindle that sense of wonder we remember from childhood, and also, for a few of the stories, to be able, really and truly, to believe--in Someone older, smarter, and wiser who is looking out for us. Faith is clearly not enough for many people. They crave hard evidence, scientific proof. They long for the scientific seal of approval, but are unwilling to put up with the rigorous standards of evidence that impart credibility to that seal.
 
One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. it is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. (So the old bamboozles tend to persist as the new bamboozles rise.)
Finding the occasional straw of truth awash in a great ocean of confusion and bamboozle requires intelligence, vigilance, dedication and courage. But if we don't practice these tough habits of thought, we cannot hope to solve the truly serious problems that face us -- and we risk becoming a nation of suckers, up for grabs by the next charlatan who comes along."
Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection

 
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Delusion: a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.


   


Posted: 17 February 2011 11:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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free thinker
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Suckers !!!!!!!


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INTROSPECT


   


Posted: 17 February 2011 11:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
Discon2
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While he is hardly a fellow-traveler, David Stewart's refusal to put up with the spun-sugar BS membership numbers claimed by his church makes him a natural, if unintentional, ally of the opposition.   Over the years, numerous discussions of LDS growth in the blogosphere have referenced Stewart's site (below), often to the dismay of the Faithful, who have their illusions punctured by one of their own.
 
 
http://www.cumorah.com/lawoftheharvest.html
 
 
 
I've often wondered if this doesn't come at some cost to Stewart - but maybe he has a friend in high places.
 
======================
 
 
Edit: link fixed


   


Posted: 18 February 2011 12:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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The PRofit
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free thinker:
Suckers !!!!!!!


Why is it that the religions that are the most dogmatic, absurd and the least tennable and capable of dealing with reality, as it is revealed by science,
 
 
are also the religions that are still attracting more believers than they lose.
 
And by contrast, the religions that are the least dogmatic and therefore the most capable of incorporating reality as it is revealed by modern science, are experiencing the most drastic shrinkage?
 
 
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Posted: 18 February 2011 12:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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The PRofit
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Discon:
While he is hardly a fellow-traveler, David Stewart's refusal to put up with the spun-sugar BS membership numbers claimed by his church makes him a natural, if unintentional, ally of the opposition.   Over the years, numerous discussions of LDS growth in the blogosphere have referenced Stewart's site (below), often to the dismay of the Faithful, who have their illusions punctured by one of their own.
 
 
http://www.cumorah.com/lawoftheharvest.htm
 
 
 
I've often wondered if this doesn't come at some cost to Stewart - but maybe he has a friend in high places.
 
======================
 
 
Edit: the link above is blocked if used directly; it works correctly when copied and pasted in a new browser window.  Was that Stewart's idea, or was he forced to do that?
 
It didn't work for me either way.
Try this link, here.
 
http://www.cumorah.com/lawoftheharvest.html
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Posted: 18 February 2011 12:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Rodolfo
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The Cumorah site was archived as well once when there was some concern that it was going down FYI.
 
 
http://web.archive.org/web/20050123090204/http://www.cumorah.com/

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Posted: 18 February 2011 01:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
Discon2
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Kori: I realized the link problem was ".htm" versus ".html"
 
 
 
Anyway, Stewart is an ally - and frankly, I respect him for insisting on honest reporting in environment that is interested in anything but.


   


Posted: 18 February 2011 04:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
Avatar
The PRofit
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Discon:
Kori: I realized the link problem was ".htm" versus ".html"
 
 
 
Anyway, Stewart is an ally - and frankly, I respect him for insisting on honest reporting in environment that is interested in anything but.
 
 
i was not familiar with Stewart, but I agree with you, its admirable that he's so honest and courageous enough to call out LDS dishonesty. What always used to boggle my mind was researchers like him who remain TBM when they KNOW their church is dishonest.
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Delusion: a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.


   


Posted: 19 February 2011 02:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
Joycee
Long Timer
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Kori:
Wonder why?
 
here
Witnesses, Adventists outpace LDS growth SLTrib
 
Churches with firm theologies (dogmatic), door-to-door evangelizing (who use strong arm sales tactics) and high expectations for member involvement (exploit their members money and time) continue to grow in the United States, even as mainstream Protestant faiths keep losing members, according to the National Council of Churches.
 
“Low tension” churches are those that allow more latitude in beliefs and place fewer expectations on members. Those are the ones declining in size.
 
(however).....David Stewart, a researcher of Mormon growth, said the council’s research method — allowing churches to report their numbers — is flawed because the comparisons end up being “apples to oranges.”
 
While the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists report active, involved members, the LDS Church claims fallen-away Mormons as well.
 
“We keep people on the rolls forever, until they die or are excommunicated,” he said. “So the church-claimed statistics can be a little unhelpful.”
Wow, honestly from a Mormon researcher? How refreshing! This guy David Stewart wrote the book on effective Mormon missionary work, here.
 
There's still a significant portion of the population that are suckers, up for grabs by the next charlatan who comes along selling the next big bamboozle.
"Such reports persist and proliferate because they sell. And they sell, I think, because there are so many of us who want so badly to be jolted out of our humdrum lives, to rekindle that sense of wonder we remember from childhood, and also, for a few of the stories, to be able, really and truly, to believe--in Someone older, smarter, and wiser who is looking out for us. Faith is clearly not enough for many people. They crave hard evidence, scientific proof. They long for the scientific seal of approval, but are unwilling to put up with the rigorous standards of evidence that impart credibility to that seal.
 
One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. it is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. (So the old bamboozles tend to persist as the new bamboozles rise.)
Finding the occasional straw of truth awash in a great ocean of confusion and bamboozle requires intelligence, vigilance, dedication and courage. But if we don't practice these tough habits of thought, we cannot hope to solve the truly serious problems that face us -- and we risk becoming a nation of suckers, up for grabs by the next charlatan who comes along."
Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection

 
 
Mormonism, Scientology, Jehovah's Witnesses....when you are raised to believe in things without question, and not to exercise critical thinking skills, you open yourself up for all kinds of scams.  Why do you think so many TBM's fall for pyramid schemes? 


   


            
 
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Is there really any “getting better” for some people?
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How do I develop a lifestyle out of Mormonism?
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Watchtower Uncensored  
Posted: 02 April 2010 04:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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LessMon
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Some (Truth and others, IIRC) have pointed out the interesting similarities between "us" and ex-members of other cults, like Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientologists, etc.
 
So this facebook group I found particularly interesting:
 
Watchtower Uncensored
 
There are tons of interesting discussions, pointing out of doctrinal and historical problems, personal anecdotes, etc. Do some fancy searching and replacing and you have an experience that looks a lot like ours.
 
They have their own issues with redefining terms like "a generation" really means 150 years and counting. It seems they have their own cadgey stats and numbers from the organization. Prophecy problems, shunning, advice for ex-members, and more!
 
Some very interesting reading.
 
What do you think...? Too obvious to point TBMs at?
 
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  — Orson Scott Card (link)


   


Posted: 02 April 2010 11:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
hartlyn
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Mormons tend to not see the child abuse and coverups in their own church; they totally laugh at the Scientologists, although many of the similarities between the two bad science fiction writers who founded both Mormonism and Scientology are startling, so it may serve only to make them more smug about their religion being so "true."
 
When I was TBM, I criticized cultlike behavior in other faiths and rationalized it in my own.  It wasn't until I found out it was all false that I began to see the similarities between Mormonism and other cults. 
 
Thanks for sharing the link,  LessMon.  It is, in a way, inspiring to me to see others breaking free of the bs.
 
hartlyn
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I want to be zen, but people keep pissing me off


   


Posted: 02 April 2010 07:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Smokey
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LessMon:
Some (Truth and others, IIRC) have pointed out the interesting similarities between "us" and ex-members of other cults, like Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientologists, etc.
 
So this facebook group I found particularly interesting:
 
Watchtower Uncensored
 
There are tons of interesting discussions, pointing out of doctrinal and historical problems, personal anecdotes, etc. Do some fancy searching and replacing and you have an experience that looks a lot like ours.
 
They have their own issues with redefining terms like "a generation" really means 150 years and counting. It seems they have their own cadgey stats and numbers from the organization. Prophecy problems, shunning, advice for ex-members, and more!
 
Some very interesting reading.
 
What do you think...? Too obvious to point TBMs at?
 
 
Wow,  the similarities between those poor people and us is telling and disturbing.  Clearly, they are hurt and angry, bitter and resentful.  I empathize with them.
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Posted: 02 April 2010 07:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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LessMon
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Agreed, the similarities are uncanny. It's interesting at the same time because I think ex-Mos, ex-JWs, ex-Scientologists, and more could probably all help each other out a lot. Change out some insider jargon and the experiences follow the same patterns.
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Jehovah’s Witnessess vs. Mormonism  
Posted: 07 May 2009 07:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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oil country
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I think most Mormons would consider JW's to be a fringe religion or even a cult.  I stumbled across this website that talks about leaving the Jehovah's Witness Religion.  I found it interesting how much of it could have applied to leaving Mormonism as well.
 
http://www.geocities.com/athens/forum/5951/xjw.html
 


   


Posted: 07 May 2009 07:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Scientology has it's "recovery" blogs as well. http://www.scientology-kills.org/survivors_magoo.htm
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 07 May 2009 07:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
kerrielou
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We're actually having a recovering mormon family and a recovering JW family over for dinner in a couple weeks.  i'm so excited i can barely stand it.  DH found JW family at work and i found po mo family through a friend.  I've even been fantasizing about starting a Po Mo\JW recovery group.  It seems like we would have so much in common.  i'll have to let everyone knows how the BBQ goes.


   


Posted: 07 May 2009 07:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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TexasChick
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"I noticed the ease with which brothers and sisters can turn off their 'love' if you dare to question the Society or if you point out what appears to be hypocrisy within the congregation."
 
Sounds very familiar....
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Posted: 07 May 2009 07:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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TexasChick
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 "My parents' continual arguments and the tension in the house did not reflect what we had been taught about 'god is love'. The gloom and despair of the house was smothering. My parents spent more time, and valued higher, their religion than their family -- they rejected me when I showed signs of 'falling away'. This situation continued over 20 years later -- it's only in the last eight years (at my wife's insistance) that I have had any contact with my family."
 
Another good one...
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Posted: 07 May 2009 07:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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MikeUtah
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StepfordWife:
We're actually having a recovering mormon family and a recovering JW family over for dinner in a couple weeks.  i'm so excited i can barely stand it.  DH found JW family at work and i found po mo family through a friend.  I've even been fantasizing about starting a Po Mo\JW recovery group.  It seems like we would have so much in common.  i'll have to let everyone knows how the BBQ goes.
 
 That does sound awesome.  I would be really excited too.  Please do let us know how it goes.
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Posted: 07 May 2009 07:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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I recommend the book "Awakening of a Jehovah's Witness: Escape From the Watchtower Society" by Diane Wilson. It's scary how closely the Jehovah's Witnesses parallel Mormonism.
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Posted: 07 May 2009 08:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Dogzilla Joy
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I used to date a JW.
 
Yep, they are as batshit crazy as the mormon church. He would get really pissed off when I called the JW a cult , and he even knew I am a postmormon... It never occurred to him that a former mormon should be able to spot a friggin' cult when she sees one. You'd think my comments would have had more credibility. 
 
I was on several JW recovery sites during that time and they all have the exact same issues we do. I've even found a Pentacostal recovery site, same thing. Different doctrine (slightly), same batshit crazy.
 
 
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Posted: 07 May 2009 08:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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The PRofit
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Here's an interesting article entitled "When Prophecies Fail" about the pathology of Cognitive Dissonance (cult brainwashing) as it applies in particular to the Jehovah's Witnesses, who's ranks have continued to swell, despite over 30 failed prophecies of the end of time.
 
It is patently obvious to any objective observer that these so-called "prophecies" failed badly exposing the so-called Prophet as a fraud.
 
What is interesting about this particular form of pathology we can observe in "Milenial Movements" like the JW's, Mormons and the 3rd Reich and  that instead of dwindling in disbelief after it becomes clear that the predictions of doomsday have come and gone, the adherents become even more dedicated to their absurd beliefs, not less. 
 
Leon Festinger described this pathology in his 1956 book, "When Prophecy Fails" 
 
"A man with a conviction is a hard man to change. Tell him you disagree and he turns away. Show him facts or figures and he questions your sources. Appeal to logic and he fails to see your point.

"We have all experienced the futility of trying to change a strong conviction, especially if the convinced person has some investment in his belief. We are familiar with the variety of ingenious defenses with which people protect their convictions, managing to keep them unscathed through the most devastating attacks.

"But man's resourcefulness goes beyond simply protecting a belief. Suppose an individual believes something with his whole heart; suppose further that he has a commitment to this belief, that he has taken irrevocable actions because of it; finally, suppose that he is presented with evidence, unequivocal and undeniable evidence, that his belief is wrong: what will happen?

The individual will frequently emerge, not only unshaken, but even more convinced of the truth of his beliefs than ever before. Indeed, he may even show a new fervor about convincing and converting other people to his view. 
 
The pathology of religious delusion has always fascinated me. After reading an article by Mormon Sociology Professor Armand Mauss  in Sunstone Magazine about history of racism in the Mormon church (which was a huge problem for me), I clicked on his e-mail address and asked him how he could still maintain his faith that Mormonism was the one true church of Jesus Christ, knowing what he knew about it's history as an institution of racism, which to me is clearly a direct contradition of Christ's commandment to love our fellow man as ourselves in which I could no longer believe, or even pretend to believe, in good conscience.
 
He replied back and said, "Imagine if you can, being in the Bishoprick of the University of CA, Berkley Student Ward, in 1969, when Mormon racism was not just an historical curiosity, it was a real focal point of some very heated attacks against your faith."
 
I just wish I'd known about "When Prophecies Fail" back then. It would have made a perfect response, but now in hindsight, it makes sense.
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Delusion: a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.


   


Posted: 07 May 2009 08:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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dave (e_nomo)
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An interesting excerpt from an article on the linked JW web site:
(sound familiar???) 
 
When I discuss groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses, I prefer to use the term "high control group" (HCG), instead of "cult".  These groups are characterized by the methods they use to instill ideology and maintain obedience.
 
These techniques are well documented.  They apply to Jehovah's Witnesses
and countless other HCG's.  Here are some of the better known methods...

    - Simplistic Thinking:  Issues are expressed as polar opposites, with
      no gray areas.  Things are black or white, us or them, good or bad.
 
    - Time Pressure:  You are given so much to do that you never have time
      to stand back and think objectively about what you are being taught.
 
    - Peer Pressure:  Your conformity is attained by exploiting your natural
      need to belong.
 
    - Isolation:  You are separated from society, friends or family, either
      physically or psychologically.  You are led to believe that you made the
      choice yourself, to avoid "bad influence".
 
    - Insulation:  Facts at odds with what you are taught are explained away
      by saying that they are lies created to mislead you.  You are taught that
      people outside the group conspire to ensnare you.  If you continue to be
      concerned, you are referred to the group's reference material rather than
      outside sources.
 
    - Demonization:  Groups or entities are identified (e.g. "Evil Slave
      Class", Satan, Christendom) as an object example of the evil outside the
      group.  Some of these groups or entities might not actually exist.
 
    - Special Status:  You are told that you belong to a group of chosen ones
      with a special mission.
 
    - Elevation of Persecution:  Any negative actions taken against the group
      are taken as proof that the outside world is trying to destroy it.
 
    - Guilt:  You are made to question your worthiness, and your past sins are
      exaggerated.  You are consistently led to believe that you are not "doing
      enough".
 
    - Fear:  Your loyalty and obedience is maintained through warnings of
      serious physical or spiritual repercussions if you do not conform.
 
    - Authority:  You are discouraged from expressing doubt or questioning the
      words of the "higher authority" (a charismatic leader, elders, or the
      organization as a whole).
 
    - Apocalyptics:  You are taught that everything will work out well because
      a magical solution is coming.  The solution usually involves the
      destruction or subjugation of those outside the group.
 
    - Scrupulosity:  You are taught explicit rules concerning conduct,
      appearance, and behaviour.  Spontaneity is discouraged.
 
    - Uncompromising Discipline:  Disagreement is dealt with harshly, which
      discourages open discussion of alternative views.
 
    - Conditioning:  You are taught to react instantly to situations with
      approved responses, rather than acting thoughtfully. For example, you are taught to answer questions instantly by quoting from approved sources rather than thinking about the question.
 
    - Thought-Stopping:  You are discouraged from thinking along lines that are not in accord with what you are supposed to believe.  Eventually, this
becomes a habit, and you lose your ability to think critically.
 
    - Subjugation:  You are taught that the group's goals outweigh your needs,  and that your personal problems are mere weaknesses which can be ignored if you are strong enough.

    Your best defense against these techniques is knowledge.  Once you are
    aware what is being done, you can start to resist.  Eventually, though, you
    may find it necessary to distance yourself from the group, because your
    doubts will become evident, and the group will react accordingly.
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Posted: 07 May 2009 08:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Shimon
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I attended Steven Hassan's presentation last year at the ex-mo conference. While listening to him I realized that the mormon church is just one of many Cults/highly controlling groups who own media outlets, and universities and have thousands of business front groups. I realized that not only am I not alone as a victim of mormonism, but that mormonism is only one of many such organizations. I began to notice that in general, the vast majority of american citizens know only as much, or perhaps less about mormons than I knew about the moonies. I began to realize that the vast majority of others see it easily for what it is. A controlling and unethical religion. Certainly they try to be polite, and tolerant, and kind to the mormons they meet, but that doesn't translate into being impressed. As a mormon, I learned to filter the mainstream media to see only how impressed others were with us, or to be outraged at the lies they believed about us. The vast majority of people are just amused or a little irritated with the mormons. At best they are politely curious. The claims of the church are easily seen as patently absurd.
 
I personally think that scientology and the Jehovah's witnesses (perhaps seventh day adventists as well) are the closest in size and structure of controlling techniques to the LDS church.
 
One note of interest however. The jehovah's witnesses in general are more controlling and as such are a much more successful (in terms of getting their members to do what they are "supposed" to) than the lds church.
 
I can't help but think that there is a possibility that if the right leaders are in charge for long enough, Mo inc. will also become more rigid for the time being. They are loosing members at such a quick rate precisely because they loosened up too much.
 
I do think this points to the likelyhood that the leaders of the LDS church are also victims of it's controlling techniques. I think it very likely that most of them are doing the same thing so many of us spent years doing.... Being faithful devoted members. What is sad, is that the kind of person with the caliber to change the church for the better, or expose it for what it is is rarely or never called to a position of power because the system is so good at filtering them out...
 
I think the church is headed for a pretty major crisis... not one it cannot weather, but one that will shake it for a while. The major issues that are precipitating this are 1. civil rights for homosexual couples 2. undocumented immigration (the church's liberal stance on this issue is at odds with their conservative friends and members) 3. the ease of access to information disproving the lds church for any who are questioning. 4. the growing empowerment of the public to daring to challenge institutional power and abuse, esp in religious organizations.
 
I doubt the church will fall apart, they have been far too good at supressing splinter groups. We'll know things are falling apart when we see a leader take off with a portion of the membership like happened in the early church following joseph's death. Even then however, about half the members stayed with BY.
 
IMO the best case scenario would be for the church to really listen to it's few progressive leaders and loosen up so that a member can believe whatever they feel comfortable with and so that family won't be excluded from life cycle events based on worthiness issues.
 
If the LDS church ever does cave on Same sex marriage, I think the path will also be laid for women to recieve the priesthood and perhaps the LDS church can turn into something affirming rather than damaging. Of course they will probably lose one to two thirds of their active members in such a transition, because as people become liberated from fear, they will naturally have less incentive to go to church, and it is unlikely the religious product can be changed from the bland diet that it is now, into a feast of spiritual diversity quickly enough to keep their interest. also many will have to go through a healing process just as we are here, even if they want to stay in a new reformed mormon church.
 
I personally think it's more likely the forces of control will reign supreme. I don't see them calling anyone to the big 15 that I think could guide the transition they need to liberalize. Time is of the essence. They have to tighten up before the next generation gets too empowered or liberal for them to control or they will hemmorage members.
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Posted: 07 May 2009 09:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Apocolyptics...(the "Chicken Little" disease.)
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 07 May 2009 09:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
magi
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There is a Baptist recovery site and I attended it for awhile, but the people, on it are not as stimulating and caring as this site so I returned here.
 
There is something wrong with any religion or party that tries to control a person's thinking.


   


Posted: 07 May 2009 09:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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The PRofit
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Shimon:
I can't help but think that there is a possibility that if the right leaders are in charge for long enough, Mo inc. will also become more rigid for the time being. They are loosing members at such a quick rate precisely because they loosened up too much.
 
 I agreed with everything you said up until that point.
 
Personally I think that as the rest of society has loosened up, Mormonism has become more rigid, by demanding that women no wear no more than 1 pair of earings/ear, that nobody wears tatoos and that men have no earings.
 
I had sex with numerous girlfriends, smoked herb and drank booze and was well educated in Darwinian Evolution before I ever went on my mission and that didn't prevent me from serving a mission. Nowdays if you did one of those things you sure as hell wouldn't be getting a free vacation to Australia for 2 years, courtesy of LDS Inc. 
 
I just remember church being a whole lot more fun back in the day. Now it's a drag. There was a whole lot more openness and Sunstoners were welcomed. Now after GBH proclaimed on numerous occasions over the pulpit, that, "There is no middle ground, it's either absolutely true or the biggest fraud ever foisted upon mankind!"
 
I found existence on either of those polar extremes untennable.
 
A fraud, yes. But the biggest ever? Not even close. Joseph's Myth has only ever affected 1/10th of 1% of the world's population at its height.  Communism and Fascism, the Bush Administration and Amway were all much bigger frauds.
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Delusion: a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.


   


Posted: 07 May 2009 09:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Gilgal
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Where's "Lady in the Hat"? She's had lots of experience with recovering JW's. 

   


Posted: 07 May 2009 09:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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Shimon
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Kori, I don't know how old you are (i'm in my thirties so my perspective is limited), but I think the loosening up of the church happened in the 70's when they felt science was on their side and that the church would soon be proved true. when all of that fell through (WOW is dead wrong on coffee and tea for example, and BOM is obviously not historically proveable) they began tightening up a bit. Sunstone panicked them, but more so during Benson's reign than hinkley's. The dynamics are still around today, there are people who grew up in the more tolerant atmosphere and who believe the LDS church will eventually loosen up on a few things. There are others who want to tighten it back up. GBH seemed to be on the liberal side of things (and he's was in no way particularly liberal). Now that he's gone, I think Uchtdorf is probably the most liberal one left. the last three apostles called have been "tighty whiteys" more in line with packer and monson's war with evil theology than the liberal theology of love and acceptance.
 
There is even a movement I've seen among members to go back to an even more literal belief in the BOM and hill cumorah as the site in new york and lamanites as the north american indians. This flies in the face of science, but it sooths the members, who find themselves asking too many questions when the story gets all complicated with LGT and two cumorah's etc. I think Farms will die a slow death and get replaced with simple nonsense (as opposed to complex nonesense). The rules will get tighter,  faithful members will learn to filter the media better and the church will grind along.
 
By getting too loose, I mean to say that for a time I think the leaders (or many of them at least) felt the church could stand up to scrutiny, because they really believed it was true. However, the church cannot stand up to scrutiny, and now they have the problem of so many informed members. I don't know how they will resolve that! added to this is the fact that there are a number of fairly liberal LDS historians still in good standing, or even employed by the church, who feel that the honest story should be told... and they are visible enough that it would be difficult to crack down on them without making a big scene.
 
I think the war on gay rights is a pretty slick move. it gives members something big to focus on and sacrifice for and if they take up the cause they might not question so much, or have time to read RSR or the joseph smith papers or worry about DNA evidence. They will be spending too much time defending their actions to their gay friends and family members and anguishing over persecution... It also preserves the existing patriarchal power structure and keeps members sacrificing to preserve it (which makes them less likely to question it). however, I think it is a move that will ultimately backfire as well... because unlike the priesthood ban (where a majority of members probably didn't personally know someone affected) this civil rights issue shows up in every family. it is a bloody civil war where parents are turned against children, and sibling agains sibling. If they hold the line, they can't help but tighten up because eventually it will make them a seperate people indeed!
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Posted: 07 May 2009 10:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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The PRofit
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Shimon:
Kori, I don't know how old you are
 
Forty Something....

 I think the war on gay rights is a pretty slick move. it gives members something big to focus on and sacrifice for and if they take up the cause they might not question so much, or have time to read RSR or the joseph smith papers or worry about DNA evidence. They will be spending too much time defending their actions to their gay friends and family members and anguishing over persecution... It also preserves the existing patriarchal power structure and keeps members sacrificing to preserve it (which makes them less likely to question it). however, I think it is a move that will ultimately backfire as well... because unlike the priesthood ban (where a majority of members probably didn't personally know someone affected) this civil rights issue shows up in every family. it is a bloody civil war where parents are turned against children, and sibling agains sibling. If they hold the line, they can't help but tighten up because eventually it will make them a seperate people indeed!
 
Personally I see Mormonism going the way of the rest of the extreme conservative sects in this country with their regressive 'Us vs. Them" partisan politics of fear mongering, herd mentality, which is becoming increasingly irrelevant as the world grows more democratic, free, and open.
 
Forces like Boyd K. Packer will only serve to exacerbate the marginalization and alienation of conservative extremists.
 
Time will tell, but I think that Mormonism is not going to ever collapse, it will just become increasingly irrelevant and powerless as time goes on, precisely because it is consistently on the wrong side of every significant battle for social progress.
It's completely out of touch with reality and the Zeitgeist of our time and as time marches on and Mormonism holds the line on it's regressive hypocritical 19th Century dark ages mentality, the more and more that reality unfolds and comes to light, the more irrelevant Joseph's Myth becomes.
 
But, there will always be those sheep who will continue to adhere to "the faith of my fathers" like Mitt Romney, without ever stopping to question the validity of the faith they inherited, because it works for them, the way it worked for their progenitors and the way it will work for their progeny, until one of them stops to actually use the neocortex they were born with as homo sapiens.
 
Unfortunately there will always be those people are satisfied with being Homo's and will never overcome being human all too human to become, sapiens. 
 
 
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Posted: 07 May 2009 10:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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Kori:

  I had sex with numerous girlfriends, smoked herb and drank booze and was well educated in Darwinian Evolution before I ever went on my mission and that didn't prevent me from serving a mission. Nowdays if you did one of those things you sure as hell wouldn't be getting a free vacation to Australia for 2 years, courtesy of LDS Inc. 
 
 Maybe the Church has cycled back to being more "okay" with evolution/natural selection, but the Biology department of BYU seems to have NO problem teaching it, and not having to hedge with any crapsauce "intelligent design" nonsense. There were numerous lectures commemorating Darwin's 200th birthday, and I could not have done well in my genetics or biodiversity classes had I not been well-educated in The Origin of Species.
 
But yeah, the others will keep you from a mission these days. :P
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Posted: 07 May 2009 11:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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The PRofit
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Dark Chocolate:
Maybe the Church has cycled back to being more "okay" with evolution/natural selection, but the Biology department of BYU seems to have NO problem teaching it, and not having to hedge with any crapsauce "intelligent design" nonsense. There were numerous lectures commemorating Darwin's 200th birthday, and I could not have done well in my genetics or biodiversity classes had I not been well-educated in The Origin of Species.
 
But yeah, the others will keep you from a mission these days. :P
 
Yeah, well, that's the paradox or hypocracy of Mormonism isn't it? 
They are officially Creationist and teach every one of their members creationism in the temple, but they can always point to BYU and say, look, we're not that out of touch with reality, at least we teach evolution at BYU.
 
What's interesting is that the latest Pew Research studies on Which Religious Groups are Creationist? shows that Mormons are about the least accepting of Evolution, except the JW's, who're completely delusional. 
 
Everybody else you'd expect to be more extreme Right wing in their views, than the Mormons, Evangelicals, Black Protestant, Muslim, Protestant, Orthodox, Catholics were actually far more progressive than Mormons.
 
And you'd expect Mormons to have a much higher rate of Postgraduate Education than most other religions, but they don't. Mainline Christians, Catholics, Unaffiliated, Buddhists, Jews and Hindus are all far more well educated than Mormons. 
 
You'd also expect  that Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Caltholics, Orthodox, Muslims and Evangelicals to say that Religion was more important to them than Mormons, but not so.
 
 
 
 
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Jehova’s Witness Paranoia???  
Posted: 16 February 2009 05:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Mashiara
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Hi...Ummm, this may sound odd, but has anyone heard about any TBM J-Witness paranoia?
 
I have successfully achieved a non-Mo'Org speak agreement with my TBM  father...too well. I don't think he would tell me if his bishop told him of a good sale on couches.
 
Anyway, he is afraid the J-Witnesses are plotting to go for a one-world religion?
 
Errr....His problems:
 
1. They are not "quite" Christian.
2. Missionaries go out and knock on people's doors.
 
Ummm....I couldn't help but point out the similarity to Joseph's Myth, and he said it was not the same because missionaries pay for their own missions and "other things".
 
Excuse me, but WTF?!?!?!
 
My brain is hurting from the stupidity of it... Not to mention the odd paranoia about some plot by the J-Witness org?
 
Umm, my father really is sick, and really does take medications that are very strong, so...it's OK to point out that this might be the case, but just know it's not a joke. 
 
I am seriously trying to find out if there is something that he "heard" from the Mo'Org....I often hear him parrotting ideas he gets at his church as his very own...and he said he has "heard stuff" about the J-witnesses...Anyone know anything?
 
 Just an FYI: I realize that hearing him parrot ideas and my breaking our agreement seem counter to my "effective" ban on Mo'Org speak...I consider the ban effective because he has "stopped" trying to pretend I am still Mormon. As much as that may have broken his heart, I could not put up with all the insidious stuff he would try to get me back "in the fold". *sigh* ...OT, but why is it such a struggle with TBMs?


   


Posted: 16 February 2009 05:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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I haven't heard anything but I know that the JWs are extremely similar to Mormons. I've been reading a book about a woman who left the Jehovah's Witnesses, and I'm amazed at the detailed similarities. Perhaps he's afraid that the JWs are a counterfeit form of The One True Church, and that's why he finds them so threatening.
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Posted: 16 February 2009 05:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Mashiara
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razrsharp:
I haven't heard anything but I know that the JWs are extremely similar to Mormons. I've been reading a book about a woman who left the Jehovah's Witnesses, and I'm amazed at the detailed similarities. Perhaps he's afraid that the JWs are a counterfeit form of The One True Church, and that's why he finds them so threatening.
 
 The things we hate in the most in others are what we see in ourselves, eh?


   


Posted: 16 February 2009 06:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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While I have never heard this about the JWs I have heard it about the LDS... in fact, one group claims that the Washington Temple has an exact replica of the Oval Office in it, for when the MoOrg Elders "save the constitution' by taking over the country and turning it into a Mormon Theocracy.
 
So I would not be surprised to hear it about the JW organization.
 
 
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Posted: 16 February 2009 06:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Mashiara
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StormWalker:
While I have never heard this about the JWs I have heard it about the LDS... in fact, one group claims that the Washington Temple has an exact replica of the Oval Office in it, for when the MoOrg Elders "save the constitution' by taking over the country and turning it into a Mormon Theocracy.
 
So I would not be surprised to hear it about the JW organization.
 
 
 
 Hey SW, long time no type to. :)
 
I just wonder at the mental gymnastics he would need to do then...When confronted with a conspiracy theory about a different religion, he can't see the similarities to his own? When dealing with his problems with Catholicism's history, he has no problem shedding concerns over things like the Mountain Meadows Massacre? Very bizarre...(And the probs with Catholics started before said sickness and pills...)...


   


Posted: 16 February 2009 06:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Mashiara:
StormWalker:
While I have never heard this about the JWs I have heard it about the LDS... in fact, one group claims that the Washington Temple has an exact replica of the Oval Office in it, for when the MoOrg Elders "save the constitution' by taking over the country and turning it into a Mormon Theocracy.
 
So I would not be surprised to hear it about the JW organization.
 
 
 
 Hey SW, long time no type to. :)
 
I just wonder at the mental gymnastics he would need to do then...When confronted with a conspiracy theory about a different religion, he can't see the similarities to his own? When dealing with his problems with Catholicism's history, he has no problem shedding concerns over things like the Mountain Meadows Massacre? Very bizarre...(And the probs with Catholics started before said sickness and pills...)... 
 
Good to read you, too.
 
I read, once, about experiments with visual filtering, where the eyes and optic nerve actually screen certain information from reaching the brain.
 
They wired a frog up so they could watching its visual cortex - the part of the brain that processes visual information. Then they took dead flies and hung them in front of the frog... they were dead, so they didn't move like flies. The frog didn't just ignore the flies, the eyes filtered the information so it never reached the visual cortex at all. No activity in the brain. Zip. Nada.
 
Next, they took fuzz and put it on a thread and moved it like a fly would move. The frog took the bait and hit on it.
 
True believers are like that... they simply filter out the offending material totally. IT does not even hit the thinking part of the brain, so it is not processed as information.
 
My theory, anyway.  
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Posted: 16 February 2009 06:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Mashiara
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StormWalker:
Mashiara:
StormWalker:
While I have never heard this about the JWs I have heard it about the LDS... in fact, one group claims that the Washington Temple has an exact replica of the Oval Office in it, for when the MoOrg Elders "save the constitution' by taking over the country and turning it into a Mormon Theocracy.
 
So I would not be surprised to hear it about the JW organization.
 
 
 
 Hey SW, long time no type to. :)
 
I just wonder at the mental gymnastics he would need to do then...When confronted with a conspiracy theory about a different religion, he can't see the similarities to his own? When dealing with his problems with Catholicism's history, he has no problem shedding concerns over things like the Mountain Meadows Massacre? Very bizarre...(And the probs with Catholics started before said sickness and pills...)... 
 
Good to read you, too.
 
I read, once, about experiments with visual filtering, where the eyes and optic nerve actually screen certain information from reaching the brain.
 
They wired a frog up so they could watching its visual cortex - the part of the brain that processes visual information. Then they took dead flies and hung them in front of the frog... they were dead, so they didn't move like flies. The frog didn't just ignore the flies, the eyes filtered the information so it never reached the visual cortex at all. No activity in the brain. Zip. Nada.
 
Next, they took fuzz and put it on a thread and moved it like a fly would move. The frog took the bait and hit on it.
 
True believers are like that... they simply filter out the offending material totally. IT does not even hit the thinking part of the brain, so it is not processed as information.
 
My theory, anyway.  
 
 Good theory. Kind of scary. If true, it is something that every human must be capable of doing, then. Kind of makes you think more about the self-examination and critical thinking you need to go through on a regular basis to stay...."sane"?



   


Posted: 16 February 2009 06:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Mashiara:
 
 Good theory. Kind of scary. If true, it is something that every human must be capable of doing, then. Kind of makes you think more about the self-examination and critical thinking you need to go through on a regular basis to stay...."sane"?
 
 
Part of it is about sanity - if the frog reacted to every single movement in the environment, it would wear itself out in no time, and would still be hungry. Instead, the filter lets it focus on what is really important - food - and cuts the rest out.
 
We have visual filters, too. How much of your environment do you actually see, and how much is filtered? Consider traffic. How many of the cars do we actually see and notice and pay attention to? Virtually none, except the ones that would have a baring on what we are doing - the one in the lane next to us, the crazy swerving back and forth, etc.
 
Same with sounds... we hear it, identify it, then most often filter it or else we would go crazy from input.
 
So it is one short step from that to filtering information...
 
And yes, it is scary. A shamanism course I am about to start working has a whole section that is, essentially, about noticing the world around you again as a way to connect with Ordinary Reality and Non-ordinary Reality.
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Posted: 24 March 2009 12:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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nonie g
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Mashiara:
Hi...Ummm, this may sound odd, but has anyone heard about any TBM J-Witness paranoia?
 
I have successfully achieved a non-Mo'Org speak agreement with my TBM  father...too well. I don't think he would tell me if his bishop told him of a good sale on couches.
 
Anyway, he is afraid the J-Witnesses are plotting to go for a one-world religion? 
 
Errr....His problems:
 
1. They are not "quite" Christian.
2. Missionaries go out and knock on people's doors.
 
Ummm....I couldn't help but point out the similarity to Joseph's Myth, and he said it was not the same because missionaries pay for their own missions and "other things".
 
Excuse me, but WTF?!?!?!
 
My brain is hurting from the stupidity of it... Not to mention the odd paranoia about some plot by the J-Witness org? 
 
Umm, my father really is sick, and really does take medications that are very strong, so...it's OK to point out that this might be the case, but just know it's not a joke.  
 
I am seriously trying to find out if there is something that he "heard" from the Mo'Org....I often hear him parrotting ideas he gets at his church as his very own...and he said he has "heard stuff" about the J-witnesses...Anyone know anything? 
 
 Just an FYI: I realize that hearing him parrot ideas and my breaking our agreement seem counter to my "effective" ban on Mo'Org speak...I consider the ban effective because he has "stopped" trying to pretend I am still Mormon. As much as that may have broken his heart, I could not put up with all the insidious stuff he would try to get me back "in the fold". *sigh* ...OT, but why is it such a struggle with TBMs? 
 Hi Mashiara -
 
Just my .02 - know some JW's fairly well.   One of the aunties was JW most of her life and I read a lot of their material.   I don't think they have any plans for a one-world religion - they are too small, for one thing.  As near as I can recollect, I think the plan is that after this world is gone, then the ultra-worthy 144,000 will go to heaven and all the other JW's will be here on the "new earth".  There is a "slave class" also, but I read the material a long time ago and the details are pretty dim.
 
Sometimes when a person is a TB in a  cult,  it helps to believe that other cults are the "bad guys".   He's probably heard talk from other church members to that effect.  


   


Posted: 24 March 2009 01:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Hey!
There are some really great people at this site: 
 
http://www.jehovahswitnessrecovery.com/ 
 
I know that they would be willing and happy to answer any questions you might have about JW's.  These folks are just like us here at Postmo.  Same struggles with families, breaking the cult mind set, finding there way in the world after leaving their religion.
 
Go visit with them!
 
Jenny
 
 
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Posted: 24 March 2009 03:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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nonie g
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Ladyinthehat:
Hey!
There are some really great people at this site: 
 
http://www.jehovahswitnessrecovery.com/ 
 
I know that they would be willing and happy to answer any questions you might have about JW's.  These folks are just like us here at Postmo.  Same struggles with families, breaking the cult mind set, finding there way in the world after leaving their religion.
 
Go visit with them!
 
Jenny
 
 
 
  Hey, Jenny -
 
Glad you made it home safe and sound.  That looks like an interesting site.  Think I'l go over and take a look.  As in Mormonism, it's really hard to learn about what the real teachings are unless you actually join the church/kingdom hall.  Auntie and Uncle were part of the pioneer movment - built their own travel trailer and went on the road with other  JW "pioneers" in the1930's.   Used to have a very old paperback around the house,  entitled "Thirty Years a Watchtower Slave".  Sure it's out of print, but probably available on Amazon.  Thanks for the info.


   


            
 
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Forum Home  >  Member Forums  >  The Community Forum  >  Thread 
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Religously Intolerent Mormons and JW’s  
Posted: 23 June 2008 07:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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This should not come as a suprise to anyone on this board but a Pew research poll doesn't make Mormons or JW's look very tolerent. The following is a quote from a recent study:
 
Quizzed on the breadth of the poll's definition of "Evangelical," Pew pollster John Green said the 296-page survey made use of self-identification by the respondents' churches, denominations or fellowships, whose variety is the report's overriding theme. However, he said, if one isolates the most "traditionalist" members of the white Evangelical group, 50% still agreed that other faiths might offer a path to eternal life. In fact, of the dozens of denominations covered by the Pew survey, it was only Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses who answered in the majority that their own faith was the only way to eternal life.
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20080623/us_time/christiansnoonepathtosalvation
 
Hopefully this link works and gets you to the full story.


   


Posted: 23 June 2008 07:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Interesting, and not a bit surprising. 
 
I don't know if they interviewed many muslims?


   


            
 
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JW’s Claimed October 1975 was the when the earth would end.  
Posted: 26 April 2008 08:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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I remember the JW's used to claim the world would end October 1975. So far they are off by 32 1/2 years. I have not talked religion with a JW since 1974. When they do come by the house they ask if anyone speaks Spanish and when I say no, they turn around and walk away which used to seem strange but I have noticed the Elders and Sisters who are tracting do the same thing. I am getting off topic - Does anyone know what the excuse the JW's have for the world not ending? 

   


Posted: 26 April 2008 08:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Clear Vision:
I remember the JW's used to claim the world would end October 1975. So far they are off by 32 1/2 years. I have not talked religion with a JW since 1974. When they do come by the house they ask if anyone speaks Spanish and when I say no, they turn around and walk away which used to seem strange but I have noticed the Elders and Sisters who are tracting do the same thing. I am getting off topic - Does anyone know what the excuse the JW's have for the world not ending?
 
Right Month, wrong Year according to my calculations.  Stay tuned.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Posted: 26 April 2008 08:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Pay-Lay-Ale:
Clear Vision:
I remember the JW's used to claim the world would end October 1975. So far they are off by 32 1/2 years. I have not talked religion with a JW since 1974. When they do come by the house they ask if anyone speaks Spanish and when I say no, they turn around and walk away which used to seem strange but I have noticed the Elders and Sisters who are tracting do the same thing. I am getting off topic - Does anyone know what the excuse the JW's have for the world not ending?
 
Right Month, wrong Year according to my calculations.  Stay tuned.
 
PLA
 
 2012?
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Posted: 26 April 2008 09:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Winyan:
Pay-Lay-Ale:
Clear Vision:
I remember the JW's used to claim the world would end October 1975. So far they are off by 32 1/2 years. I have not talked religion with a JW since 1974. When they do come by the house they ask if anyone speaks Spanish and when I say no, they turn around and walk away which used to seem strange but I have noticed the Elders and Sisters who are tracting do the same thing. I am getting off topic - Does anyone know what the excuse the JW's have for the world not ending?
 
Right Month, wrong Year according to my calculations.  Stay tuned.
 
PLA
 
 2012?