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The Society for Humanistic Mormonism
Posted: 12 September 2010 04:33 AM [ Ignore ]
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Plato
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The Society for Humanistic Mormonism
Humanistic Mormonism is a movement of Freethinkers, Liberals, Cultural Mormons, Disfellowshipped, Excommunicated and/or Independents related to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and other Latter Day Saint groups that emphasize Mormon culture and history, but do not demand belief in a supernatural god, or the historicity of the Bible or the Book of Mormon. It is based on Humanism and can be summarized in some points:
A Mormon is someone who identifies with the history, culture, and future of the Mormon people;
Mormonism is the historic culture of the Mormon people, and religion is only one part of that culture;
People possess the power and responsibility to shape their own lives independent of supernatural authority;
Ethics and morality should serve human needs, and choices should be based upon consideration of the consequences of actions rather than pre-ordained rules or commandments;
The Bible, Book of Mormon or other religious texts are purely human and natural phenomena. Biblical and other traditional texts are the products of human activity and are best understood by scientific analysis.
The Society for Humanistic Mormonism is the first official religious institution of its kind and is organized as a world religion separate from any other Mormon denomination. Seeing that there was no such religion or institution to meet the needs of Humanistic Mormons the Society was founded in 2010.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=134116906634163&v=info&ref=mf
Thoughts?
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“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 12 September 2010 04:42 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Curmudgeon
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What is the point? I am a free thinker who no longer considers myself a cultural Mormon. In fact I hate the culture that most people associate with Mormonism. Just because I came from that does not mean I want to associate with virtual green jello with shredded carrot servers. I think I will sit this one out.
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http://itsacurmudgeonslife.blogspot.com/
Not participating in the madness… just observing!
Posted: 12 September 2010 04:49 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Plato
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Joined 2009-10-10
lol...ok. ;)
I do think Mormon Humanism makes room for Post-Mormons, (ex-Mormons, apostates, etc.) this is why I put it here. ;)
Also something like this can further weaken the Church overtime...just like the Catholic Renaissance-Reformation, later led to the Enlightenment and the down fall of the Roman Catholic Church in Europe. It was Humanists who led the way to this. I think Post-Mormon Humanists can take heart.
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“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 12 September 2010 04:54 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Curmudgeon
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Fair enough. I am all for a big tent but it does not exist in Mormon culture. To attach humanism and Mormonism in the same sentence is an oxymoron.
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http://itsacurmudgeonslife.blogspot.com/
Not participating in the madness… just observing!
Posted: 12 September 2010 04:56 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Plato
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Joined 2009-10-10
I agree unless we redefine what it means to be 'Mormon.' This I think is the ultimate act of rebellion against the Church. Redefining that, plus it makes them really mad. :)
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“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 12 September 2010 05:00 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Curmudgeon
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If TBM's join this group they will attempt to redefine humanism. I am all for the conversation. Fortunatley I think we have everything to gain. The "truth" of Mormonism does not hold up in the light of day.
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http://itsacurmudgeonslife.blogspot.com/
Not participating in the madness… just observing!
Posted: 12 September 2010 05:02 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Plato
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Joined 2009-10-10
I agree. Given that the group says: Humanistic Mormonism is a movement of Freethinkers, Liberals, Cultural Mormons, Disfellowshipped, Excommunicated and/or Independents ... that emphasize Mormon culture and history, but do not demand belief in a supernatural god, or the historicity of the Bible or the Book of Mormon. I have little fear they will taken over there. wink
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“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 12 September 2010 02:56 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
hartlyn
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Plato, I think it would be a great service to cultural Mormons for them to have a place where they can be themselves.
Best of luck to you and the group.
hartlyn
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“It is absurd to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious.” Oscar Wilde
I want to be zen, but people keep pissing me off
Posted: 12 September 2010 03:10 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Plato
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Joined 2009-10-10
Thanks. wink
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“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 12 September 2010 03:17 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Lea Christensen-Martin
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hartlyn:
Plato, I think it would be a great service to cultural Mormons for them to have a place where they can be themselves.
Best of luck to you and the group.
hartlyn
I agree.
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My soul was removed to make room for all this sarcasm.
Posted: 12 September 2010 03:29 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
yellow
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i think i'd fit right, exactly in here!
i would love more info, can't join the facebook group at this time
Posted: 12 September 2010 07:33 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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DrW
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Joined 2009-01-12
Curmudgeon:
What is the point? I am a free thinker who no longer considers myself a cultural Mormon. In fact I hate the culture that most people associate with Mormonism. Just because I came from that does not mean I want to associate with virtual green jello with shredded carrot servers. I think I will sit this one out.
If I agree with Curmudgeon, does that make me one as well?
It just seems kind of pointless to me. Why, after finally admitting and truly understanding the truth about the Mormon Church, would anyone want to carry around a label with the term "Mormon" in it (humanist or not)?
Mormon Humanist seems like an oxymoron to me - sort of like Evangelical Fundamentalist Christian Humanist.
Posted: 12 September 2010 07:38 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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kay.too
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DrW:
Curmudgeon:
What is the point? I am a free thinker who no longer considers myself a cultural Mormon. In fact I hate the culture that most people associate with Mormonism. Just because I came from that does not mean I want to associate with virtual green jello with shredded carrot servers. I think I will sit this one out.
If I agree with Curmudgeon, does that make me one as well?
It just seems kind of pointless to me. Why, after finally admitting and truly understanding the truth about the Mormon Church, would anyone want to carry around a label with the term "Mormon" in it (humanist or not)?
Mormon Humanist seems like an oxymoron to me - sort of like Evangelical Fundamentalist Christian Humanist.
I agree.
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Why is it okay for Joseph Smith to have sex with 14 year old girls and other men’s wives but it is not okay for women to have more than one set of earrings?
Posted: 12 September 2010 09:02 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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Lloyd Dobler
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Joined 2009-07-27
DrW:
Curmudgeon:
What is the point? I am a free thinker who no longer considers myself a cultural Mormon. In fact I hate the culture that most people associate with Mormonism. Just because I came from that does not mean I want to associate with virtual green jello with shredded carrot servers. I think I will sit this one out.
If I agree with Curmudgeon, does that make me one as well?
It just seems kind of pointless to me. Why, after finally admitting and truly understanding the truth about the Mormon Church, would anyone want to carry around a label with the term "Mormon" in it (humanist or not)?
Mormon Humanist seems like an oxymoron to me - sort of like Evangelical Fundamentalist Christian Humanist.
Disclaimer: I still sort of go to church, wife kids, you know the drill (although none of us have been in 5 straight weeks, a new record!)
Frankly, i am embarrassed to be a Mormon. I am embarrassed I am still a member. I make it clear to anyone, member or not, that I don't believe anymore etc if it comes up. As soon as I can, I will resign, with my family intact (i won't let the god damn church has them under any circumstances).
Plato the church or mormonism has done nothing to deserve your efforts to attach such noble aspirations to their name. The last thing the church needs or deserves is good people making their deserved bad name look better.
the best thing the church has always had going for it is the good people that remain members or even members in record only. For an organization to have so many good well meaning people......the church always uses them while they continue to lie to them. the church requires courage even from their tbms while they cower behind their pr and money.
Signature
They say that I am crazy
My life wasting on this road
That time will find my dreams
Scared or dead and cold
But I heard there is a light
Drawing me to reach an end
And when I reach there, I’ll turn back
And you and I can begin again
200 More Miles
Cowboy Junkies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SwJM5yohb0
Posted: 12 September 2010 09:14 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
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Yinyang
Long Timer
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Joined 2008-12-25
Lloyd Dobler:
DrW:
Curmudgeon:
What is the point? I am a free thinker who no longer considers myself a cultural Mormon. In fact I hate the culture that most people associate with Mormonism. Just because I came from that does not mean I want to associate with virtual green jello with shredded carrot servers. I think I will sit this one out.
If I agree with Curmudgeon, does that make me one as well?
It just seems kind of pointless to me. Why, after finally admitting and truly understanding the truth about the Mormon Church, would anyone want to carry around a label with the term "Mormon" in it (humanist or not)?
Mormon Humanist seems like an oxymoron to me - sort of like Evangelical Fundamentalist Christian Humanist.
Disclaimer: I still sort of go to church, wife kids, you know the drill (although none of us have been in 5 straight weeks, a new record!)
Frankly, i am embarrassed to be a Mormon. I am embarrassed I am still a member. I make it clear to anyone, member or not, that I don't believe anymore etc if it comes up. As soon as I can, I will resign, with my family intact (i won't let the god damn church has them under any circumstances).
Plato the church or mormonism has done nothing to deserve your efforts to attach such noble aspirations to their name. The last thing the church needs or deserves is good people making their deserved bad name look better.
the best thing the church has always had going for it is the good people that remain members or even members in record only. For an organization to have so many good well meaning people......the church always uses them while they continue to lie to them. the church requires courage even from their tbms while they cower behind their pr and money.
[ ] Well said LD. I agree.
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Being philosophically and behaviorally consistent is hard work.
Examining the origins of your beliefs is even harder.
And it did not come to pass.
Posted: 13 September 2010 05:39 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
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honeyblood
Sr. Member
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Joined 2010-08-27
Well, I can tell you, that a lot of TBMs would just shake their head and chuckle at ther very idea.
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I have lived with the prospect of an early death for the last 49 years. I’m not afraid of death, but I’m in no hurry to die. I have so much I want to do first. I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail. There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark. -Stephen Hawking
Posted: 18 September 2012 07:52 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
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Plato
Long Timer
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Joined 2009-10-10
Lloyd Dobler:
DrW:
Curmudgeon:
What is the point? I am a free thinker who no longer considers myself a cultural Mormon. In fact I hate the culture that most people associate with Mormonism. Just because I came from that does not mean I want to associate with virtual green jello with shredded carrot servers. I think I will sit this one out.
If I agree with Curmudgeon, does that make me one as well?
It just seems kind of pointless to me. Why, after finally admitting and truly understanding the truth about the Mormon Church, would anyone want to carry around a label with the term "Mormon" in it (humanist or not)?
Mormon Humanist seems like an oxymoron to me - sort of like Evangelical Fundamentalist Christian Humanist.
Disclaimer: I still sort of go to church, wife kids, you know the drill (although none of us have been in 5 straight weeks, a new record!)
Frankly, i am embarrassed to be a Mormon. I am embarrassed I am still a member. I make it clear to anyone, member or not, that I don't believe anymore etc if it comes up. As soon as I can, I will resign, with my family intact (i won't let the god damn church has them under any circumstances).
Plato the church or mormonism has done nothing to deserve your efforts to attach such noble aspirations to their name. The last thing the church needs or deserves is good people making their deserved bad name look better.
the best thing the church has always had going for it is the good people that remain members or even members in record only. For an organization to have so many good well meaning people......the church always uses them while they continue to lie to them. the church requires courage even from their tbms while they cower behind their pr and money.
Lloyd:
I want to point out that this is not for the LDS Church, Inc. we are against the LDS Church, Inc. We see it as a destructive cult that brainwashes people and destroys families. We are against their lies and myths. We also claim that the LDS Church, Inc. does not own Mormonism, that rather Post-Mormons, Ex-Mormons, and "Humanistic Mormons" as they are called own it just as much as the LDS Church does or more. For the only reason that we are the only ones who have integrity in our "Mormondumness" whatever form that may be expressed in.
Our goal with this project for this Society is basically the same goal Thomas Jefferson had when he took the Bible and created his own version (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible). We are basically doing the same things Jefferson did with Christianity we do for Mormonism now. Now it may be true that at the end of this project of "Humanistic Mormonism" we only have a page left of 'goodness' but we still think we should hold on to that part. Also by doing this we increase the chances of reformation in the LDS Inc. because what will occur and we think this will occur over time is that this institution will start having its own voice and power to produce change overall.
This is our goal for Mormonism and religion in general:
Religion for Atheists
Moving on from the stale and unproductive atheists vs. believers debate, renowned philosopher Alain de Botton argues for a more helpful and progressive alternative.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSrVCSQucGY
To give you a sense of what we are doing we are taking the manuals for adults and children and changing them by applying Humanist manuals such as these, with the goal of est. Humanist communities and education materials:
http://www.americanhumanist.org/system/storage/63/d4/4/2129/childrens_manual_web.pdf
Signature
“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 18 September 2012 08:54 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 17 ]
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Lloyd Dobler
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Joined 2009-07-27
Plato:
Lloyd Dobler:
DrW:
Curmudgeon:
What is the point? I am a free thinker who no longer considers myself a cultural Mormon. In fact I hate the culture that most people associate with Mormonism. Just because I came from that does not mean I want to associate with virtual green jello with shredded carrot servers. I think I will sit this one out.
If I agree with Curmudgeon, does that make me one as well?
It just seems kind of pointless to me. Why, after finally admitting and truly understanding the truth about the Mormon Church, would anyone want to carry around a label with the term "Mormon" in it (humanist or not)?
Mormon Humanist seems like an oxymoron to me - sort of like Evangelical Fundamentalist Christian Humanist.
Disclaimer: I still sort of go to church, wife kids, you know the drill (although none of us have been in 5 straight weeks, a new record!)
Frankly, i am embarrassed to be a Mormon. I am embarrassed I am still a member. I make it clear to anyone, member or not, that I don't believe anymore etc if it comes up. As soon as I can, I will resign, with my family intact (i won't let the god damn church has them under any circumstances).
Plato the church or mormonism has done nothing to deserve your efforts to attach such noble aspirations to their name. The last thing the church needs or deserves is good people making their deserved bad name look better.
the best thing the church has always had going for it is the good people that remain members or even members in record only. For an organization to have so many good well meaning people......the church always uses them while they continue to lie to them. the church requires courage even from their tbms while they cower behind their pr and money.
Lloyd:
I want to point out that this is not for the LDS Church, Inc. we are against the LDS Church, Inc. We see it as a destructive cult that brainwashes people and destroys families. We are against their lies and myths. We also claim that the LDS Church, Inc. does not own Mormonism, that rather Post-Mormons, Ex-Mormons, and "Humanistic Mormons" as they are called own it just as much as the LDS Church does or more. For the only reason that we are the only ones who have integrity in our "Mormondumness" whatever form that may be expressed in.
Our goal with this project for this Society is basically the same goal Thomas Jefferson had when he took the Bible and created his own version (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible). We are basically doing the same things Jefferson did with Christianity we do for Mormonism now. Now it may be true that at the end of this project of "Humanistic Mormonism" we only have a page left of 'goodness' but we still think we should hold on to that part. Also by doing this we increase the chances of reformation in the LDS Inc. because what will occur and we think this will occur over time is that this institution will start having its own voice and power to produce change overall.
This is our goal for Mormonism and religion in general:
Religion for Atheists
Moving on from the stale and unproductive atheists vs. believers debate, renowned philosopher Alain de Botton argues for a more helpful and progressive alternative.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSrVCSQucGY
To give you a sense of what we are doing we are taking the manuals for adults and children and changing them by applying Humanist manuals such as these, with the goal of est. Humanist communities and education materials:
http://www.americanhumanist.org/system/storage/63/d4/4/2129/childrens_manual_web.pdf
I thought the youtube thing was great. I can get with culture replacing religion. Culture giving guidance, morality and consolation........I like that. That is something I can pass on to my kids. I downloaded the manual and am going to go through it.
More power to you Plato. I spoke to soon!
Signature
They say that I am crazy
My life wasting on this road
That time will find my dreams
Scared or dead and cold
But I heard there is a light
Drawing me to reach an end
And when I reach there, I’ll turn back
And you and I can begin again
200 More Miles
Cowboy Junkies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SwJM5yohb0
Posted: 18 September 2012 11:37 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 18 ]
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Bad Company
Long Timer
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Joined 2012-04-19
"I’ve given up on the whole human species. I think a big, good-sized comet is exactly what this species needs. You know, the poor dinosaurs were walking around eating leaves, and they were completely wiped out. Let the insects have a go."
"I think religion is very anti-man. I think it’s a terrible distortion and exploitation of a very natural urge every human has—to be rejoined with the one somehow, to become a part of the universe. Once the high priests and the traders took over, we were lost as a species."
"But I do cherish, and love, and am thrilled by individuals. People, one by one as I meet them, I find are wondrous. When you have time to listen and watch them, when you look in the eyes, you see all the potential of the whole thing, this whole species that had such a wonderful gift that was given by nature. The mind, the ability to objectify and to think abstractly. And we’ve wasted it by everyone wanting a fanny pack and to go to the mall and to be paying 18 percent interest on things that we don’t need, don’t want, don’t work, and can’t give back."
-George Carlin
I guess what I am asking is why on earth do you care about humanism or the human race in the first place? All we do is destroy, consume, rape, pillage, and control everything on earth. If there is a buck to be made, you bet your ass that humans will do whatever it takes to get that buck. We are all selfish.
Atheism will never catch on or become mainstream because people are inherently f**king dumb. For every humanist, secular child you have or recruit the Muslims are having four. It's a losing battle, and the best we can hope for is that giant asteroid, or for the sea levels to rise drastically, or for our unsustainable activies to run dry and mass famine and drought to occur. Then maybe we can try to start over without the religion and consumerism, but I doubt it because it seems to be an inherent part of who we are. I mean, most humans think that the big bang, billions of stars exploding, and billions of years of evolution all occured so they could sit in their church, have a big house, and be comfortable because we are the pinnacle of God's creation and superior to everything else. How utterly arrogant.
I tried to be a humanist after dropping mormonism, but it is really tough to look at our species and planet as a whole and come to the conclusion that humans are 'good'.
Posted: 19 September 2012 04:45 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 19 ]
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Plato
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Lloyd Dobler:
Plato:
Lloyd Dobler:
DrW:
Curmudgeon:
What is the point? I am a free thinker who no longer considers myself a cultural Mormon. In fact I hate the culture that most people associate with Mormonism. Just because I came from that does not mean I want to associate with virtual green jello with shredded carrot servers. I think I will sit this one out.
If I agree with Curmudgeon, does that make me one as well?
It just seems kind of pointless to me. Why, after finally admitting and truly understanding the truth about the Mormon Church, would anyone want to carry around a label with the term "Mormon" in it (humanist or not)?
Mormon Humanist seems like an oxymoron to me - sort of like Evangelical Fundamentalist Christian Humanist.
Disclaimer: I still sort of go to church, wife kids, you know the drill (although none of us have been in 5 straight weeks, a new record!)
Frankly, i am embarrassed to be a Mormon. I am embarrassed I am still a member. I make it clear to anyone, member or not, that I don't believe anymore etc if it comes up. As soon as I can, I will resign, with my family intact (i won't let the god damn church has them under any circumstances).
Plato the church or mormonism has done nothing to deserve your efforts to attach such noble aspirations to their name. The last thing the church needs or deserves is good people making their deserved bad name look better.
the best thing the church has always had going for it is the good people that remain members or even members in record only. For an organization to have so many good well meaning people......the church always uses them while they continue to lie to them. the church requires courage even from their tbms while they cower behind their pr and money.
Lloyd:
I want to point out that this is not for the LDS Church, Inc. we are against the LDS Church, Inc. We see it as a destructive cult that brainwashes people and destroys families. We are against their lies and myths. We also claim that the LDS Church, Inc. does not own Mormonism, that rather Post-Mormons, Ex-Mormons, and "Humanistic Mormons" as they are called own it just as much as the LDS Church does or more. For the only reason that we are the only ones who have integrity in our "Mormondumness" whatever form that may be expressed in.
Our goal with this project for this Society is basically the same goal Thomas Jefferson had when he took the Bible and created his own version (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible). We are basically doing the same things Jefferson did with Christianity we do for Mormonism now. Now it may be true that at the end of this project of "Humanistic Mormonism" we only have a page left of 'goodness' but we still think we should hold on to that part. Also by doing this we increase the chances of reformation in the LDS Inc. because what will occur and we think this will occur over time is that this institution will start having its own voice and power to produce change overall.
This is our goal for Mormonism and religion in general:
Religion for Atheists
Moving on from the stale and unproductive atheists vs. believers debate, renowned philosopher Alain de Botton argues for a more helpful and progressive alternative.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSrVCSQucGY
To give you a sense of what we are doing we are taking the manuals for adults and children and changing them by applying Humanist manuals such as these, with the goal of est. Humanist communities and education materials:
http://www.americanhumanist.org/system/storage/63/d4/4/2129/childrens_manual_web.pdf
I thought the youtube thing was great. I can get with culture replacing religion. Culture giving guidance, morality and consolation........I like that. That is something I can pass on to my kids. I downloaded the manual and am going to go through it.
More power to you Plato. I spoke to soon!
Great we agree! Glad the video and the humanist manual for children helped. We hope you will consider helping us in our quest.
The Society sees this as a do or die moment and we need all the help we can get to fight the brainwashing corporate lying insitutuion known as the LDS Church.
Down with Smith and his lies, down with the LDS Church, up with humanistic religions!
Signature
“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 19 September 2012 04:56 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 20 ]
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Plato
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SN:
"I’ve given up on the whole human species. I think a big, good-sized comet is exactly what this species needs. You know, the poor dinosaurs were walking around eating leaves, and they were completely wiped out. Let the insects have a go."
"I think religion is very anti-man. I think it’s a terrible distortion and exploitation of a very natural urge every human has—to be rejoined with the one somehow, to become a part of the universe. Once the high priests and the traders took over, we were lost as a species."
"But I do cherish, and love, and am thrilled by individuals. People, one by one as I meet them, I find are wondrous. When you have time to listen and watch them, when you look in the eyes, you see all the potential of the whole thing, this whole species that had such a wonderful gift that was given by nature. The mind, the ability to objectify and to think abstractly. And we’ve wasted it by everyone wanting a fanny pack and to go to the mall and to be paying 18 percent interest on things that we don’t need, don’t want, don’t work, and can’t give back."
-George Carlin
I guess what I am asking is why on earth do you care about humanism or the human race in the first place? All we do is destroy, consume, rape, pillage, and control everything on earth. If there is a buck to be made, you bet your ass that humans will do whatever it takes to get that buck. We are all selfish.
Atheism will never catch on or become mainstream because people are inherently f**king dumb. For every humanist, secular child you have or recruit the Muslims are having four. It's a losing battle, and the best we can hope for is that giant asteroid, or for the sea levels to rise drastically, or for our unsustainable activies to run dry and mass famine and drought to occur. Then maybe we can try to start over without the religion and consumerism, but I doubt it because it seems to be an inherent part of who we are. I mean, most humans think that the big bang, billions of stars exploding, and billions of years of evolution all occured so they could sit in their church, have a big house, and be comfortable because we are the pinnacle of God's creation and superior to everything else. How utterly arrogant.
I tried to be a humanist after dropping mormonism, but it is really tough to look at our species and planet as a whole and come to the conclusion that humans are 'good'.
I of course have to respond as I feel that there is more to humanity than you let on.
Sure it is true that humans have done bad things, etc., yet they also have done a lot of good. On the whole I believe we are a young species and therefore overtime the human race will be perfected. We shall evolve and morally grow as a primate species and we have done so in the past. So there is much to be admired about humanity. Since you took the liberity of quoting George C. I will leave you with some of my favorite humanist quotes:
The Philosophy of Humanism
Justice is the only worship
Love is the only priest
Ignorance is the only slavery.
Happiness is the only good.
The time to be happy is now,
The place to be happy is here,
The way to be happy is to make others so.
Wisdom is the science of happiness.
---Robert G. Ingersoll, The Great Agnostic
I: A Humanist Declaration for Science and Democracy in the Americas
May it [the Declaration of Independence] be to the world, what I believe it will be, (to some parts sooner, to others later, but finally to all,) the signal of arousing men to burst the chains under which monkish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves, and to assume the blessings and security of self-government. That form which we have substituted, restores the free right to the unbounded exercise of reason and freedom of opinion. All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately…. These are grounds of hope for others.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Roger C Weightman, June 24, 1826, Jefferson's last letter, declining, due to ill health, an invitation to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the signing of that document; Jefferson died ten days later, the very day of the 50th anniversary of the Declaration's signing (John Adams died a few hours later, not knowing that Jefferson had also died).
II.
Corliss Lamont, philosopher, former president of the American Humanist Association
“Humanism asserts that human reason and human efforts are our best and, indeed, only hope; and that our refusal to recognize this point is one of the chief causes of our many human failures throughout history.” (The Philosophy of Humanism, Corliss Lamont, p. 15).
“Humanism…is a philosophy of joyous service for the greater good of all humanity in this natural world and advocating the methods of reason, science, and democracy…it insists that reason should fully recognize the emotional side of human beings. Indeed, one of Humanism’s main functions is to set free the emotions from cramping and irrational restrictions” (13).
“Humanism…believes that human beings, while conditioned by the past, possess genuine freedom of creative choice and action, and are, within certain objective limits, the shapers of their own destiny…Democritus, adding the important point that in the swirl of atoms chance deviations take place that break the chain of complete determinism and make room for human freedom of choice” (14, 43).
“Humanism believes in a far-reaching social program that stands for the establishment throughout the world of democracy, peace, and a high standard of living on the foundations of a flourishing economic order, both national and international” (15).
“Out of [humanism] flows naturally the implication that the supreme ethical objective is to work for a happier existence on behalf of all humanity here and now” (31).
III.
“Apparently one price of the organic complexity that makes a person’s career so exciting so splendid, and so vividly self-conscious is death for the personality at the end of a relatively brief time span….The understanding of death’s indispensable place in Nature and of our unique place in the great life process is one of the best antidotes to the thought of personal extinction…[as is] the prospect of oblivion through death is that every individual carries literally all eternity in their being…Biology however does not strictly rule out immortality…It is also quite conceivable that at some very distant day science will learn how to prolong indefinitely the life of human bodies…” (113-14).
“Believing as I do that man in the distant future will be a far more perfect creature than he now is, it is an intolerable thought that he and all other sentient beings are doomed to complete annihilation after such long-continued slow progress” (Charles Darwin).
“We are a young species. I think if we allow ourselves a little development, understanding what we've done already, we'll be surprised what a cherishable, lovely group that humans can evolve into” (Gene Roddenberry, The Humanist, March/April 1991, p. 30).
“For a scientifically induced mutation in humans may well bring into existence a more advanced species, call it Superhuman or what you will, that will be superior to us in brain power as we are to the anthropoid ape….evolutionary history [supports the view] that the brain of modern man represents some intermediate stage in the ultimate development of the master organ of life….What I want to deny emphatically is the necessity of any ultimate doom for humankind, a fate often predicted today by pessimistic scientists rather than by theologians anticipating the Day of Judgment. I deny the inevitability at whatever distant date of this earth’s becoming uninhabitable and a tomb for all living creatures upon it…”
“Science in its efficacious modern form is only 400 years old. What undreamed of achievements may we not expect when this science is four thousand or four million or four billion years old? During such immense spans we may well win such mastery over this whirling sphere that we will succeed in preserving this planet as a habitable abode indefinitely…Over billions of years human science will also, I believe, build up sufficient knowledge and power to deal with and counteract the so-called Law of Entropy, which holds that the sum total of matter-energy in the entire universe will ultimately be converted into non-useful, dissipated, stagnant heat diffused everywhere like vapor (heat death of the universe)” (121).
“We have become truly Promethean in our almost infinite powers and potentialities. For our great achievements, which were attained utilizing the resources and laws of Nature, yet without Divine aid, we can take full credit. Similarly, for our shortcomings we must take full responsibility. Humanism assigns to us nothing less than the task of being our own savior and redeemer” (309).
“Humanism, in accordance with scientific method, believes in the unending questioning of basic assumptions and convictions, including its own. Humanism is not a new dogma, but is a developing philosophy ever open to experimental testing, newly discovered facts, and more rigorous reasoning………Naturally, however, any particular expression of Humanism will eventually be superseded” (15, 20).
Signature
“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 19 September 2012 05:43 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 21 ]
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A Prophet of Reason
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Thanks Plato. You have done good work. I shall take it from here.
I am the President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism.
I come in peace and in reason.
I am the Surak of Mormondum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surak
Live long and prosper. Or as we say Live Forever and Prosper.
Go in peace and in reason, my friends.
Signature
“Today man’s larger understanding of the universe, his scientific achievements,..have created a situation which requires a new statement of the means and purposes of religion. Such a vital, fearless, and frank religion capable of furnishing adequate social goals and personal satisfactions may appear to many people as a complete break with the past. While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…”
-Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.”
-Carl Sagan
Posted: 19 September 2012 03:53 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 22 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Plato,
I've looked at the Society's website and facebook page, and I have some questions.
First, how is the Society legally organized? Is there a corporation? Limited Liablity Company? 501(c)(3) non profit?
Second, the facebook page shows lots of members, most of whom were added to the group by Jonathan Brown. Of the people who were invited and accepted, several are obvious fakes (e.g., characters from the Book of Mormon Musical). Who are the real people leaders of this group? How many actual people have agreed to become members?
The Society's webpage solitics donations. Where do those donations go? Who is responsible for accounting for them?
The Society's webpage has references to lots of other organizations. Which specific organizations have expressly endorsed the Society?
I'd appreciate it if you could clarify.
Brad
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
Phillip K. Dick
Posted: 19 September 2012 05:13 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 23 ]
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yogaman
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DrW:
Curmudgeon:
What is the point? I am a free thinker who no longer considers myself a cultural Mormon. In fact I hate the culture that most people associate with Mormonism. Just because I came from that does not mean I want to associate with virtual green jello with shredded carrot servers. I think I will sit this one out.
If I agree with Curmudgeon, does that make me one as well?
It just seems kind of pointless to me. Why, after finally admitting and truly understanding the truth about the Mormon Church, would anyone want to carry around a label with the term "Mormon" in it (humanist or not)?
Mormon Humanist seems like an oxymoron to me - sort of like Evangelical Fundamentalist Christian Humanist.
I don't think Plato's group is pointless. We have many examples of other religious groups that have done the same thing. Take humanistic Jews, for instance. Here's their website and a snippet of their homepage:
http;//www.shj.org
"Humanistic Judaism embraces a human-centered philosophy that combines the celebration of Jewish culture and identity with an adherence to humanistic values and ideas.
Humanistic Judaism offers a nontheistic alternative in contemporary Jewish life. Established by Rabbi Sherwin T. Wine in 1963 in Detroit, Michigan, to provide a home for humanistic, secular, and cultural Jews, Humanistic Judaism is a worldwide movement..."
I also find the Christian Humanists to be interesting:
http://www.christianhumanist.net/
You can find a humanistic organization or website attached to almost any religion - and none of them believe in the supernatural. Why not Mormon humanists?
In fact, I read most Jews throughout the world are humanistic and not religious (I should find that reference). Wouldn't it be great if Mormonism got to this point? I think the difference between them and the LDS church is that their religion is a lot older than ours and they have gone through a lot more to make them question it (thinking holocaust here).
Now I admit, I am loathe to celebrate Mormon culture b/c I find many parts of it personally offensive. Certainly the doctrines and standards are all crap. For example, I won't be celebrating the Word of Wisdom any time soon. However, not all of it is offensive. Plato's reference to Alain de Botton's work is very intriguing. I am reading his book, Religion for Atheists, and finding a lot in it that I can use. So what can we learn from Mormonism that's useful w/o believing in the nonsensical parts?
I think one thing that is useful is their ability to organize. They, as well as many other religions, do that extremely well. There's power that comes from doing that. And right now, that is a power that atheists and humanists do not possess yet, as much as I wish we did.
So, here's a thumbs-up Plato!
I may have some suggestions to the wording for humanistic Mormons later.
Edited from my original post above: I am at work and not able to log into the facebook page b/c our server blocks it. So some of Brad's questions are certainly relevent. However, my comments above address the idea of Mormon Humanism as having parallels in other religious cultures that have moved away from their supernatural teachings. I would like to hear any arguments that refute why something like that is unnecessary. As far as I can tell - and I could be wrong - humanism hasn't received much traction in recent years. However, I see these other groups as gaining momentum. Thoughts?
Posted: 19 September 2012 05:31 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 24 ]
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Lloyd Dobler
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
Plato,
I've looked at the Society's website and facebook page, and I have some questions.
First, how is the Society legally organized? Is there a corporation? Limited Liablity Company? 501(c)(3) non profit?
Second, the facebook page shows lots of members, most of whom were added to the group by Jonathan Brown. Of the people who were invited and accepted, several are obvious fakes (e.g., characters from the Book of Mormon Musical). Who are the real people leaders of this group? How many actual people have agreed to become members?
The Society's webpage solitics donations. Where do those donations go? Who is responsible for accounting for them?
The Society's webpage has references to lots of other organizations. Which specific organizations have expressly endorsed the Society?
I'd appreciate it if you could clarify.
Brad
Yeah, Brad. This is crossing the line into stupid. I mean I am trying to be supportive but it seems like kind of a joke. If it is not a joke, then Plato, dude, maybe you should not have sockpupets, Spock, and fake members with book of mormon names. Or do whatever you want but don't push it onto real people who are coming to this site in real pain.
Signature
They say that I am crazy
My life wasting on this road
That time will find my dreams
Scared or dead and cold
But I heard there is a light
Drawing me to reach an end
And when I reach there, I’ll turn back
And you and I can begin again
200 More Miles
Cowboy Junkies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SwJM5yohb0
Posted: 19 September 2012 05:32 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 25 ]
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Bad Company
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A Prophet of Reason:
Thanks Plato. You have done good work. I shall take it from here.
I am the President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism.
I come in peace and in reason.
I am the Surak of Mormondum.
Talking to yourself and handing yourself off to a sock-puppet does not give you much credibility I'm sorry to say.
Posted: 19 September 2012 05:43 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 26 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
Moderator
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Joined 2007-05-08
Lloyd Dobler:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Plato,
I've looked at the Society's website and facebook page, and I have some questions.
First, how is the Society legally organized? Is there a corporation? Limited Liablity Company? 501(c)(3) non profit?
Second, the facebook page shows lots of members, most of whom were added to the group by Jonathan Brown. Of the people who were invited and accepted, several are obvious fakes (e.g., characters from the Book of Mormon Musical). Who are the real people leaders of this group? How many actual people have agreed to become members?
The Society's webpage solitics donations. Where do those donations go? Who is responsible for accounting for them?
The Society's webpage has references to lots of other organizations. Which specific organizations have expressly endorsed the Society?
I'd appreciate it if you could clarify.
Brad
Yeah, Brad. This is crossing the line into stupid. I mean I am trying to be supportive but it seems like kind of a joke. If it is not a joke, then Plato, dude, maybe you should not have sockpupets, Spock, and fake members with book of mormon names. Or do whatever you want but don't push it onto real people who are coming to this site in real pain.
We're reviewing this in the moderator team. Generally, we don't have a problem with people promoting their books, blogs, organzations, etc. as long as they aren't contrary to the postmormon.org mission. This one has led me to ask the above questions that I hope Plato will answer next time he logs in.
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
Phillip K. Dick
Posted: 19 September 2012 06:24 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 27 ]
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Swearing Elder
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Why reinvent the wheel? Why not just join a UU church and enjoy a broader experience with other humanists?
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“There’s an old saying about those who forget history. I don’t remember it, but it’s good.” — Stephen Colbert
Posted: 19 September 2012 08:38 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 28 ]
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Plato
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Joined 2009-10-10
yogaman:
DrW:
Curmudgeon:
What is the point? I am a free thinker who no longer considers myself a cultural Mormon. In fact I hate the culture that most people associate with Mormonism. Just because I came from that does not mean I want to associate with virtual green jello with shredded carrot servers. I think I will sit this one out.
If I agree with Curmudgeon, does that make me one as well?
It just seems kind of pointless to me. Why, after finally admitting and truly understanding the truth about the Mormon Church, would anyone want to carry around a label with the term "Mormon" in it (humanist or not)?
Mormon Humanist seems like an oxymoron to me - sort of like Evangelical Fundamentalist Christian Humanist.
I don't think Plato's group is pointless. We have many examples of other religious groups that have done the same thing. Take humanistic Jews, for instance. Here's their website and a snippet of their homepage:
http;//www.shj.org
"Humanistic Judaism embraces a human-centered philosophy that combines the celebration of Jewish culture and identity with an adherence to humanistic values and ideas.
Humanistic Judaism offers a nontheistic alternative in contemporary Jewish life. Established by Rabbi Sherwin T. Wine in 1963 in Detroit, Michigan, to provide a home for humanistic, secular, and cultural Jews, Humanistic Judaism is a worldwide movement..."
I also find the Christian Humanists to be interesting:
http://www.christianhumanist.net/
You can find a humanistic organization or website attached to almost any religion - and none of them believe in the supernatural. Why not Mormon humanists?
In fact, I read most Jews throughout the world are humanistic and not religious (I should find that reference). Wouldn't it be great if Mormonism got to this point? I think the difference between them and the LDS church is that their religion is a lot older than ours and they have gone through a lot more to make them question it (thinking holocaust here).
Now I admit, I am loathe to celebrate Mormon culture b/c I find many parts of it personally offensive. Certainly the doctrines and standards are all crap. For example, I won't be celebrating the Word of Wisdom any time soon. However, not all of it is offensive. Plato's reference to Alain de Botton's work is very intriguing. I am reading his book, Religion for Atheists, and finding a lot in it that I can use. So what can we learn from Mormonism that's useful w/o believing in the nonsensical parts?
I think one thing that is useful is their ability to organize. They, as well as many other religions, do that extremely well. There's power that comes from doing that. And right now, that is a power that atheists and humanists do not possess yet, as much as I wish we did.
So, here's a thumbs-up Plato!
I may have some suggestions to the wording for humanistic Mormons later.
Edited from my original post above: I am at work and not able to log into the facebook page b/c our server blocks it. So some of Brad's questions are certainly relevent. However, my comments above address the idea of Mormon Humanism as having parallels in other religious cultures that have moved away from their supernatural teachings. I would like to hear any arguments that refute why something like that is unnecessary. As far as I can tell - and I could be wrong - humanism hasn't received much traction in recent years. However, I see these other groups as gaining momentum. Thoughts?
I apprieate the kind words. I realize there is a knee jerk reaction to this at first but I do believe that this will become a very postive place for post-mormons, ex-mormons, humanists, and others etc.
And you are right we are trying to follow what other groups have done and use religion the way Alain de Botton's suggests.
Signature
“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 19 September 2012 08:45 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 29 ]
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Plato
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Joined 2009-10-10
Lloyd Dobler:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Plato,
I've looked at the Society's website and facebook page, and I have some questions.
First, how is the Society legally organized? Is there a corporation? Limited Liablity Company? 501(c)(3) non profit?
Second, the facebook page shows lots of members, most of whom were added to the group by Jonathan Brown. Of the people who were invited and accepted, several are obvious fakes (e.g., characters from the Book of Mormon Musical). Who are the real people leaders of this group? How many actual people have agreed to become members?
The Society's webpage solitics donations. Where do those donations go? Who is responsible for accounting for them?
The Society's webpage has references to lots of other organizations. Which specific organizations have expressly endorsed the Society?
I'd appreciate it if you could clarify.
Brad
Yeah, Brad. This is crossing the line into stupid. I mean I am trying to be supportive but it seems like kind of a joke. If it is not a joke, then Plato, dude, maybe you should not have sockpupets, Spock, and fake members with book of mormon names. Or do whatever you want but don't push it onto real people who are coming to this site in real pain.
I take this very seriously, well as as seriously as a humanist-atheist can in creating a non-theistic religion based on humanism, reason, science, and Mormon cultural identity.
To be honest religion shouldn't be taken too serious we should see the humor in life.
Yet I believe Spock of Star Trek to be a very important figure for Humanists esp. Humanistic Mormons as what a good humanist is: rational and peaceful like the Vulcans. This is how I try to be. The Vulcan philosopher Surak is especially important to me as a role model for what I am trying to achieve here for this Society.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surak
Actually the so-called "fake members" are the characters from the Book of Mormon Musical and I like to hear their jokes. Religion esp. this religion can make fun of itself. Its ok to make fun of ourselves and joke. ;)
Signature
“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 19 September 2012 08:50 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 30 ]
Avatar
Plato
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2009-10-10
Swearing Elder:
Why reinvent the wheel? Why not just join a UU church and enjoy a broader experience with other humanists?
Because like I said I have more in common with Mormons and their experiences than I do other type of humanists. Plus people have come to me requesting that I move forward on this. People desire community with Mormon ties.
Signature
“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 19 September 2012 09:22 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 31 ]
Avatar
Brad (ZeeZrom)
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2007-05-08
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Plato,
I've looked at the Society's website and facebook page, and I have some questions.
First, how is the Society legally organized? Is there a corporation? Limited Liablity Company? 501(c)(3) non profit?
Second, the facebook page shows lots of members, most of whom were added to the group by Jonathan Brown. Of the people who were invited and accepted, several are obvious fakes (e.g., characters from the Book of Mormon Musical). Who are the real people leaders of this group? How many actual people have agreed to become members?
The Society's webpage solitics donations. Where do those donations go? Who is responsible for accounting for them?
The Society's webpage has references to lots of other organizations. Which specific organizations have expressly endorsed the Society?
I'd appreciate it if you could clarify.
Brad
***clears throat***
Would you please respond to the highlighted portions of my earlier post?
Thanks.
Signature
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
Phillip K. Dick
Posted: 19 September 2012 09:37 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 32 ]
Avatar
Jeff Ricks
Administrator
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2004-07-20
Plato:
Swearing Elder:
Why reinvent the wheel? Why not just join a UU church and enjoy a broader experience with other humanists?
Because like I said I have more in common with Mormons and their experiences than I do other type of humanists. Plus people have come to me requesting that I move forward on this. People desire community with Mormon ties.
To each his own, but here's the part I don't get. You've found out that Mormonism isn't "true," so why cling to any part of it, especially when the good things about Mormonism are also readily found outside of Mormonism? Also, maybe that parts you want to cling to are problematic in the long run. For example, maybe by copying its priesthood hierarchy and its stake and ward structure, you're also copying the problems that are inherent in most hierarchical structures, such as abuse of authority, self-aggrandizement, arrogance, empire building, self-serving directives, etc.
What you're attempting to do makes me think of a butterfly fabricating another cocoon for itself because the one it was in had ruptured. Maybe the best thing you can do for yourself is let go of the past -- the thing that once confined you -- and move on.
Signature
When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine
Posted: 19 September 2012 10:13 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 33 ]
Avatar
Brad (ZeeZrom)
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2007-05-08
Given that Plato has logged in, responded to a number of posts, but then logged without answering my questions, I can only offer a word of caution. At this point, the Society is asking for money without disclosing how it is organized, where the money is going, and who is accountable for the funds. Caveat emptor.
Signature
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
Phillip K. Dick
Posted: 20 September 2012 03:24 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 34 ]
Am I white yet?
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Joined 2009-05-14
Jonathan hit me up a few weeks ago to be an apostle. I was told it involved an interview process. Upon more careful consideration, I'm not interested. Some of the concerns I have are:
1. The title: I don't like the name Mormonism in the title. Personally, Mormonism equates to fraud and as such using Mormonism in the title makes absolutely no sense to me. It's like creating the Society of Madoff Investors
2. It seems like with the hierarchy and the solicitation of donations, it's really not much different from LDS $INC.
3. I don't understand exactly what the objective is and why you need what very much appears like another religion to push it? What it is going to accomplish that sites like PostMormon.org, Mormonthink and Recovery from Mormonism can't accomplish?
Posted: 20 September 2012 12:55 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 35 ]
Avatar
Plato
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2009-10-10
Am I white yet?:
Jonathan hit me up a few weeks ago to be an apostle. I was told it involved an interview process. Upon more careful consideration, I'm not interested. Some of the concerns I have are:
1. The title: I don't like the name Mormonism in the title. Personally, Mormonism equates to fraud and as such using Mormonism in the title makes absolutely no sense to me. It's like creating the Society of Madoff Investors
2. It seems like with the hierarchy and the solicitation of donations, it's really not much different from LDS $INC.
3. I don't understand exactly what the objective is and why you need what very much appears like another religion to push it? What it is going to accomplish that sites like PostMormon.org, Mormonthink and Recovery from Mormonism can't accomplish?
1. Christianity of course was considered by Thomas Jefferson to be a fraud. That didn't stop him from calling himself a rational Christian:
Thomas Jefferson Promotes Rational Christianity in a very anti-Trinitarian context. It was to Timothy Pickering February 27, 1821. As Jefferson writes:
I thank you for Mr. Channing's discourse, which you have been so kind as to forward me. It is not yet at hand, but is doubtless on its way. I had received it through another channel, and read it with high satisfaction. No one sees with greater pleasure than myself the progress of reason in its advances towards rational Christianity. When we shall have done away the incomprehensible jargon of the Trinitarian arithmetic, that three are one, and one is three; when we shall have knocked down the artificial scaffolding, reared to mask from view the simple structure of Jesus; when, in short, we shall have unlearned everything which has been taught since His day, and got back to the pure and simple doctrines He inculcated, we shall then be truly and worthily His disciples; and my opinion is that if nothing had ever been added to what flowed purely from His lips, the whole world would at this day have been Christian.
This is how I feel about the word "Mormon" what the Society is promoting is a Rational Mormonism. Not a supernatural Mormonism. Also to be clear we are Humanistic Mormons not merely Mormons. And under a different definition of what "Mormon" means I don't have a problem using that word or "Mormonism." We can be defined as Post-Mormons in the traditional sense of that word as well.
2. Why do we desire a hierarchy? For the simple reason that without leaders our movement cannot move forward. It would be like asking Postmormon.org not to have any officers. Well if that were the case who would run Postmormon.org? Our hierarchy is even more democratic than Postmormon.org because we allow elections to take place on our leaders. Does Postmormon.org have elections of Post-Mormons for their offices? Has Jeff Ricks been democratically elected or was he self-selected? Needless to say our leaders are democratically elected in the humanist way. Why donations? Our goal is to build up this Society to build Humanistic Mormon meeting houses, and Humanistic Mormon Temples, to have a Welfare System in place, to give to Charity, to help Humanistic Mormons who are struggling. I'll give one example recently one of our Bishops gave $100 to help another struggling member. We need institutions like this and leaders like this, even if they are humanists. Even Postmormon.org asks for donations, as does Mormon Stories, as does all institutions, whether secular or religious. This is a world religion and as such will be around for generations to come. Babies will be born into this religion and we are in the process of creating life cycles ceremonies for them as well as writing manuals for both adults and children.
3. All these institutions you mention are good and we support their efforts. However they do not provide many of the things that traditional religions provide, we mean to provide those things in a humanist manner. Some people leave Mormonism behind forever, we support that. However some people want to become Humanistic Mormons and have a sense of community again with families, etc., we provide a more healthy place for them. Really its up to the person to decide what they want and value out of life. If someone chooses to leave all of Mormonism behind we support them in that choice too.
Thus this Society seeks to uplift all of humanity and promote the progress of the human mind and free it from authoritarian religious structures, dogmas, and superstitions, towards a New Enlightenment and a new religion based on reason and science. So when we say we want to be rational we mean it, we try to avoid things that are irrational and anti-scientific in our personal lives such as putting things into our bodies that destory them.
Signature
“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 20 September 2012 01:28 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 36 ]
Avatar
Lyman
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Joined 2010-09-23
Plato:
Am I white yet?:
Jonathan hit me up a few weeks ago to be an apostle. I was told it involved an interview process. Upon more careful consideration, I'm not interested. Some of the concerns I have are:
1. The title: I don't like the name Mormonism in the title. Personally, Mormonism equates to fraud and as such using Mormonism in the title makes absolutely no sense to me. It's like creating the Society of Madoff Investors
2. It seems like with the hierarchy and the solicitation of donations, it's really not much different from LDS $INC.
3. I don't understand exactly what the objective is and why you need what very much appears like another religion to push it? What it is going to accomplish that sites like PostMormon.org, Mormonthink and Recovery from Mormonism can't accomplish?
1. Christianity of course was considered by Thomas Jefferson to be a fraud. That didn't stop him from calling himself a rational Christian:
Thomas Jefferson Promotes Rational Christianity in a very anti-Trinitarian context. It was to Timothy Pickering February 27, 1821. As Jefferson writes:
I thank you for Mr. Channing's discourse, which you have been so kind as to forward me. It is not yet at hand, but is doubtless on its way. I had received it through another channel, and read it with high satisfaction. No one sees with greater pleasure than myself the progress of reason in its advances towards rational Christianity. When we shall have done away the incomprehensible jargon of the Trinitarian arithmetic, that three are one, and one is three; when we shall have knocked down the artificial scaffolding, reared to mask from view the simple structure of Jesus; when, in short, we shall have unlearned everything which has been taught since His day, and got back to the pure and simple doctrines He inculcated, we shall then be truly and worthily His disciples; and my opinion is that if nothing had ever been added to what flowed purely from His lips, the whole world would at this day have been Christian.
This is how I feel about the word "Mormon" what the Society is promoting is a Rational Mormonism. Not a supernatural Mormonism. Also to be clear we are Humanistic Mormons not merely Mormons. And under a different definition of what "Mormon" means I don't have a problem using that word or "Mormonism." We can be defined as Post-Mormons in the traditional sense of that word as well.
2. Why do we desire a hierarchy? For the simple reason that without leaders our movement cannot move forward. It would be like asking Postmormon.org not to have any officers. Well if that were the case who would run Postmormon.org? Our hierarchy is even more democratic than Postmormon.org because we allow elections to take place on our leaders. Does Postmormon.org have elections of Post-Mormons for their offices? Has Jeff Ricks been democratically elected or was he self-selected? Needless to say our leaders are democratically elected in the humanist way. Why donations? Our goal is to build up this Society to build Humanistic Mormon meeting houses, and Humanistic Mormon Temples, to have a Welfare System in place, to give to Charity, to help Humanistic Mormons who are struggling. I'll give one example recently one of our Bishops gave $100 to help another struggling member. We need institutions like this and leaders like this, even if they are humanists. Even Postmormon.org asks for donations, as does Mormon Stories, as does all institutions, whether secular or religious. This is a world religion and as such will be around for generations to come. Babies will be born into this religion and we are in the process of creating life cycles ceremonies for them as well as writing manuals for both adults and children.
3. All these institutions you mention are good and we support their efforts. However they do not provide many of the things that traditional religions provide, we mean to provide those things in a humanist manner. Some people leave Mormonism behind forever, we support that. However some people want to become Humanistic Mormons and have a sense of community again with families, etc., we provide a more healthy place for them. Really its up to the person to decide what they want and value out of life. If someone chooses to leave all of Mormonism behind we support them in that choice too.
Thus this Society seeks to uplift all of humanity and promote the progress of the human mind and free it from authoritarian religious structures, dogmas, and superstitions, towards a New Enlightenment and a new religion based on reason and science. So when we say we want to be rational we mean it, we try to avoid things that are irrational and anti-scientific in our personal lives such as putting things into our bodies that destory them.
Unlike Postmormon.org/Jeff Ricks, you do not disclose how your group is organized. Jeff makes a full accounting of finances for Postmormon.org and doesn't plan to pay himself a "living wage".
Posted: 20 September 2012 01:45 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 37 ]
Avatar
Plato
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2009-10-10
Lyman:
Plato:
Am I white yet?:
Jonathan hit me up a few weeks ago to be an apostle. I was told it involved an interview process. Upon more careful consideration, I'm not interested. Some of the concerns I have are:
1. The title: I don't like the name Mormonism in the title. Personally, Mormonism equates to fraud and as such using Mormonism in the title makes absolutely no sense to me. It's like creating the Society of Madoff Investors
2. It seems like with the hierarchy and the solicitation of donations, it's really not much different from LDS $INC.
3. I don't understand exactly what the objective is and why you need what very much appears like another religion to push it? What it is going to accomplish that sites like PostMormon.org, Mormonthink and Recovery from Mormonism can't accomplish?
1. Christianity of course was considered by Thomas Jefferson to be a fraud. That didn't stop him from calling himself a rational Christian:
Thomas Jefferson Promotes Rational Christianity in a very anti-Trinitarian context. It was to Timothy Pickering February 27, 1821. As Jefferson writes:
I thank you for Mr. Channing's discourse, which you have been so kind as to forward me. It is not yet at hand, but is doubtless on its way. I had received it through another channel, and read it with high satisfaction. No one sees with greater pleasure than myself the progress of reason in its advances towards rational Christianity. When we shall have done away the incomprehensible jargon of the Trinitarian arithmetic, that three are one, and one is three; when we shall have knocked down the artificial scaffolding, reared to mask from view the simple structure of Jesus; when, in short, we shall have unlearned everything which has been taught since His day, and got back to the pure and simple doctrines He inculcated, we shall then be truly and worthily His disciples; and my opinion is that if nothing had ever been added to what flowed purely from His lips, the whole world would at this day have been Christian.
This is how I feel about the word "Mormon" what the Society is promoting is a Rational Mormonism. Not a supernatural Mormonism. Also to be clear we are Humanistic Mormons not merely Mormons. And under a different definition of what "Mormon" means I don't have a problem using that word or "Mormonism." We can be defined as Post-Mormons in the traditional sense of that word as well.
2. Why do we desire a hierarchy? For the simple reason that without leaders our movement cannot move forward. It would be like asking Postmormon.org not to have any officers. Well if that were the case who would run Postmormon.org? Our hierarchy is even more democratic than Postmormon.org because we allow elections to take place on our leaders. Does Postmormon.org have elections of Post-Mormons for their offices? Has Jeff Ricks been democratically elected or was he self-selected? Needless to say our leaders are democratically elected in the humanist way. Why donations? Our goal is to build up this Society to build Humanistic Mormon meeting houses, and Humanistic Mormon Temples, to have a Welfare System in place, to give to Charity, to help Humanistic Mormons who are struggling. I'll give one example recently one of our Bishops gave $100 to help another struggling member. We need institutions like this and leaders like this, even if they are humanists. Even Postmormon.org asks for donations, as does Mormon Stories, as does all institutions, whether secular or religious. This is a world religion and as such will be around for generations to come. Babies will be born into this religion and we are in the process of creating life cycles ceremonies for them as well as writing manuals for both adults and children.
3. All these institutions you mention are good and we support their efforts. However they do not provide many of the things that traditional religions provide, we mean to provide those things in a humanist manner. Some people leave Mormonism behind forever, we support that. However some people want to become Humanistic Mormons and have a sense of community again with families, etc., we provide a more healthy place for them. Really its up to the person to decide what they want and value out of life. If someone chooses to leave all of Mormonism behind we support them in that choice too.
Thus this Society seeks to uplift all of humanity and promote the progress of the human mind and free it from authoritarian religious structures, dogmas, and superstitions, towards a New Enlightenment and a new religion based on reason and science. So when we say we want to be rational we mean it, we try to avoid things that are irrational and anti-scientific in our personal lives such as putting things into our bodies that destory them.
Unlike Postmormon.org/Jeff Ricks, you do not disclose how your group is organized. Jeff makes a full accounting of finances for Postmormon.org and doesn't plan to pay himself a "living wage".
True, but unlike Jeff Ricks I am the founder of a new religion, that includes many future services that postmormon.org does not provide and therefore if we are going to run this insitution full time we will need to be paid at some point. I still want to know who is in charge of accounting and where the money goes at postmormon.org? How is it organized? Was Jeff Ricks elected to his current office? How about the other offices?
But since you asked we are in the process of seeking incorporation as a non-profit religious institution. Steven J. Strang is in charge of accounting and donations.
Signature
“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 20 September 2012 01:51 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 38 ]
Avatar
Lyman
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Joined 2010-09-23
Plato:
Lyman:
Plato:
Am I white yet?:
Jonathan hit me up a few weeks ago to be an apostle. I was told it involved an interview process. Upon more careful consideration, I'm not interested. Some of the concerns I have are:
1. The title: I don't like the name Mormonism in the title. Personally, Mormonism equates to fraud and as such using Mormonism in the title makes absolutely no sense to me. It's like creating the Society of Madoff Investors
2. It seems like with the hierarchy and the solicitation of donations, it's really not much different from LDS $INC.
3. I don't understand exactly what the objective is and why you need what very much appears like another religion to push it? What it is going to accomplish that sites like PostMormon.org, Mormonthink and Recovery from Mormonism can't accomplish?
1. Christianity of course was considered by Thomas Jefferson to be a fraud. That didn't stop him from calling himself a rational Christian:
Thomas Jefferson Promotes Rational Christianity in a very anti-Trinitarian context. It was to Timothy Pickering February 27, 1821. As Jefferson writes:
I thank you for Mr. Channing's discourse, which you have been so kind as to forward me. It is not yet at hand, but is doubtless on its way. I had received it through another channel, and read it with high satisfaction. No one sees with greater pleasure than myself the progress of reason in its advances towards rational Christianity. When we shall have done away the incomprehensible jargon of the Trinitarian arithmetic, that three are one, and one is three; when we shall have knocked down the artificial scaffolding, reared to mask from view the simple structure of Jesus; when, in short, we shall have unlearned everything which has been taught since His day, and got back to the pure and simple doctrines He inculcated, we shall then be truly and worthily His disciples; and my opinion is that if nothing had ever been added to what flowed purely from His lips, the whole world would at this day have been Christian.
This is how I feel about the word "Mormon" what the Society is promoting is a Rational Mormonism. Not a supernatural Mormonism. Also to be clear we are Humanistic Mormons not merely Mormons. And under a different definition of what "Mormon" means I don't have a problem using that word or "Mormonism." We can be defined as Post-Mormons in the traditional sense of that word as well.
2. Why do we desire a hierarchy? For the simple reason that without leaders our movement cannot move forward. It would be like asking Postmormon.org not to have any officers. Well if that were the case who would run Postmormon.org? Our hierarchy is even more democratic than Postmormon.org because we allow elections to take place on our leaders. Does Postmormon.org have elections of Post-Mormons for their offices? Has Jeff Ricks been democratically elected or was he self-selected? Needless to say our leaders are democratically elected in the humanist way. Why donations? Our goal is to build up this Society to build Humanistic Mormon meeting houses, and Humanistic Mormon Temples, to have a Welfare System in place, to give to Charity, to help Humanistic Mormons who are struggling. I'll give one example recently one of our Bishops gave $100 to help another struggling member. We need institutions like this and leaders like this, even if they are humanists. Even Postmormon.org asks for donations, as does Mormon Stories, as does all institutions, whether secular or religious. This is a world religion and as such will be around for generations to come. Babies will be born into this religion and we are in the process of creating life cycles ceremonies for them as well as writing manuals for both adults and children.
3. All these institutions you mention are good and we support their efforts. However they do not provide many of the things that traditional religions provide, we mean to provide those things in a humanist manner. Some people leave Mormonism behind forever, we support that. However some people want to become Humanistic Mormons and have a sense of community again with families, etc., we provide a more healthy place for them. Really its up to the person to decide what they want and value out of life. If someone chooses to leave all of Mormonism behind we support them in that choice too.
Thus this Society seeks to uplift all of humanity and promote the progress of the human mind and free it from authoritarian religious structures, dogmas, and superstitions, towards a New Enlightenment and a new religion based on reason and science. So when we say we want to be rational we mean it, we try to avoid things that are irrational and anti-scientific in our personal lives such as putting things into our bodies that destory them.
Unlike Postmormon.org/Jeff Ricks, you do not disclose how your group is organized. Jeff makes a full accounting of finances for Postmormon.org and doesn't plan to pay himself a "living wage".
True, but unlike Jeff Ricks I am the founder of a new religion, that includes many future services that postmormon.org does not provide and therefore if we are going to run this insitution full time we will need to be paid at some point. I still want to know who is in charge of accounting and where the money goes at postmormon.org? How is it organized? Was Jeff Ricks elected to his current office? How about the other offices?
But since you asked we are in the process of seeking incorporation as a non-profit religious institution. Steven J. Strang is in charge of accounting and donations.
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/members/comments/financial_report_for_2009_to_date
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/members/comments/financial_report_for_2009
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/members/comments/financial_report_for_2010_to_date
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/members/comments/financial_report_for_2011_to_date
Posted: 20 September 2012 01:53 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 39 ]
Avatar
Plato
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2009-10-10
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Plato,
I've looked at the Society's website and facebook page, and I have some questions.
First, how is the Society legally organized? Is there a corporation? Limited Liablity Company? 501(c)(3) non profit?
Second, the facebook page shows lots of members, most of whom were added to the group by Jonathan Brown. Of the people who were invited and accepted, several are obvious fakes (e.g., characters from the Book of Mormon Musical). Who are the real people leaders of this group? How many actual people have agreed to become members?
The Society's webpage solitics donations. Where do those donations go? Who is responsible for accounting for them?
The Society's webpage has references to lots of other organizations. Which specific organizations have expressly endorsed the Society?
I'd appreciate it if you could clarify.
Brad
We are in the process of seeking incorporation as a non-profit religious institution. Steven J. Strang is in charge of accounting and donations.
The Society for Humanistic Mormonism is part of the
AMERICAN HUMANIST ASSOCIATION | AHA CHAPTERS AND AFFILIATES
Society for Humanistic Mormonism
1435 Southwood Drive
Mishawka IN, 46544
Contact: James Edward Nickels
Email: .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
URL: http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/
(See their website for proof: http://www.americanhumanist.org/view/EN/What_We_Do/Local_Groups/AHA_Chapters2?page=7)
Our other associations are listed here:
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm#!affiliations/ck27
Signature
“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 20 September 2012 01:55 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 40 ]
Am I white yet?
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Joined 2009-05-14
Plato:
True, but unlike Jeff Ricks I am the founder of a new religion, that includes many future services that postmormon.org does not provide and therefore if we are going to run this insitution full time we will need to be paid at some point. I still want to know who is in charge of accounting and where the money goes at postmormon.org? How is it organized? Was Jeff Ricks elected to his current office? How about the other offices?
But since you asked we are in the process of seeking incorporation as a non-profit religious institution. Steven J. Strang is in charge of accounting and donations.
Leaving one organized religion to jump into the arms of another seems VERY counterintuitive like going from the frying pan into the fire. The reality is you can be a humanistic person, have compassion and help people out when and where you can individually. Some of the services you claim to eventually provide have been provided through this forum, just not publicly. I know that for a fact.
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The Society for Humanistic Mormonism
Posted: 20 September 2012 01:57 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 41 ]
Avatar
Plato
Long Timer
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Joined 2009-10-10
Am I white yet?:
Plato:
True, but unlike Jeff Ricks I am the founder of a new religion, that includes many future services that postmormon.org does not provide and therefore if we are going to run this insitution full time we will need to be paid at some point. I still want to know who is in charge of accounting and where the money goes at postmormon.org? How is it organized? Was Jeff Ricks elected to his current office? How about the other offices?
But since you asked we are in the process of seeking incorporation as a non-profit religious institution. Steven J. Strang is in charge of accounting and donations.
Leaving one organized religion to jump into the arms of another seems VERY counterintuitive like going from the frying pan into the fire. The reality is you can be a humanistic person, have compassion and help people out when and where you can individually. Some of the services you claim to eventually provide have been provided through this forum, just not publicly. I know that for a fact.
Really where is the local Postmormon.org meeting house, cause I would like to attend it and bring my family with me?
Our mission is to create this meeting houses and call leaders to lead them according to humanist principles.
Signature
“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 20 September 2012 02:09 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 42 ]
Am I white yet?
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Joined 2009-05-14
Plato:
Am I white yet?:
Plato:
True, but unlike Jeff Ricks I am the founder of a new religion, that includes many future services that postmormon.org does not provide and therefore if we are going to run this insitution full time we will need to be paid at some point. I still want to know who is in charge of accounting and where the money goes at postmormon.org? How is it organized? Was Jeff Ricks elected to his current office? How about the other offices?
But since you asked we are in the process of seeking incorporation as a non-profit religious institution. Steven J. Strang is in charge of accounting and donations.
Leaving one organized religion to jump into the arms of another seems VERY counterintuitive like going from the frying pan into the fire. The reality is you can be a humanistic person, have compassion and help people out when and where you can individually. Some of the services you claim to eventually provide have been provided through this forum, just not publicly. I know that for a fact.
Really where is the local Postmormon.org meeting house, cause I would like to attend it and bring my family with me?
Our mission is to create this meeting houses and call leaders to lead them according to humanist principles.
So what praytell are the profound truths you plan to teach in your meeting houses that can't be found anywhere else? What humanistic principles do we lack that you have the key to? Unless you've suddenly cornered the market on profound truth, you're not offering anything. Just another religious structure by which to Lord over one's fellow man.
Posted: 20 September 2012 04:06 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 43 ]
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Tessa
Long Timer
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Joined 2008-08-12
Next up on the pyramid scheme....tithing.
Signature
”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 20 September 2012 04:29 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 44 ]
Avatar
Plato
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2009-10-10
Am I white yet?:
Plato:
Am I white yet?:
Plato:
True, but unlike Jeff Ricks I am the founder of a new religion, that includes many future services that postmormon.org does not provide and therefore if we are going to run this insitution full time we will need to be paid at some point. I still want to know who is in charge of accounting and where the money goes at postmormon.org? How is it organized? Was Jeff Ricks elected to his current office? How about the other offices?
But since you asked we are in the process of seeking incorporation as a non-profit religious institution. Steven J. Strang is in charge of accounting and donations.
Leaving one organized religion to jump into the arms of another seems VERY counterintuitive like going from the frying pan into the fire. The reality is you can be a humanistic person, have compassion and help people out when and where you can individually. Some of the services you claim to eventually provide have been provided through this forum, just not publicly. I know that for a fact.
Really where is the local Postmormon.org meeting house, cause I would like to attend it and bring my family with me?
Our mission is to create this meeting houses and call leaders to lead them according to humanist principles.
So what praytell are the profound truths you plan to teach in your meeting houses that can't be found anywhere else? What humanistic principles do we lack that you have the key to? Unless you've suddenly cornered the market on profound truth, you're not offering anything. Just another religious structure by which to Lord over one's fellow man.
I've all ready addressed this in another post and what I said above.
Signature
“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 20 September 2012 04:30 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 45 ]
Avatar
Plato
Long Timer
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Joined 2009-10-10
Tessa:
Next up on the pyramid scheme....tithing.
Yes all institutions need money to run; including this website ironically.
Signature
“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 20 September 2012 05:26 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 46 ]
Avatar
Tessa
Long Timer
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Joined 2008-08-12
But they don't "command it." It's voluntary.
Signature
”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 20 September 2012 05:34 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 47 ]
Avatar
Brad (ZeeZrom)
Moderator
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Joined 2007-05-08
Plato:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Plato,
I've looked at the Society's website and facebook page, and I have some questions.
First, how is the Society legally organized? Is there a corporation? Limited Liablity Company? 501(c)(3) non profit?
Second, the facebook page shows lots of members, most of whom were added to the group by Jonathan Brown. Of the people who were invited and accepted, several are obvious fakes (e.g., characters from the Book of Mormon Musical). Who are the real people leaders of this group? How many actual people have agreed to become members?
The Society's webpage solitics donations. Where do those donations go? Who is responsible for accounting for them?
The Society's webpage has references to lots of other organizations. Which specific organizations have expressly endorsed the Society?
I'd appreciate it if you could clarify.
Brad
We are in the process of seeking incorporation as a non-profit religious institution. Steven J. Strang is in charge of accounting and donations.
The Society for Humanistic Mormonism is part of the
AMERICAN HUMANIST ASSOCIATION | AHA CHAPTERS AND AFFILIATES
Society for Humanistic Mormonism
1435 Southwood Drive
Mishawka IN, 46544
Contact: James Edward Nickels
Email: .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
URL: http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/
(See their website for proof: http://www.americanhumanist.org/view/EN/What_We_Do/Local_Groups/AHA_Chapters2?page=7)
Our other associations are listed here:
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm#!affiliations/ck27
So, you threw up a snazzy looking website with a paypal link asking for donations even though there is no legal entity to receive them. It's not organized as a nonprofit or anything else. The webpage doesn't disclose who the founders, leaders, apostles are or what will be done with the donations. Some guy named Strang is in charge of the money. You are dodgy with the most straigtforward of questions about how your organization is set up, how it works, and who it is affiliated with. You add lots of people to your facebook page to make it look as if all sorts of folks are involved with your society, when in fact you've added almost all of them without their permission. You create a sockpuppet here to pass off as the prophet of this organization. All of this while acting as head of a local postmormon.org chapter.
If you want to promote some kind of organization, get your house in order before asking for money. Be transparent and scrupulously honest about who you are, your leadership is. Fully disclose exactly where the money goes if when someone clicks on the paypal link and publicly account for how it is spent. And resign as a postmormon.org chapter leader.
I have no idea what your actual intent is, but what you've done so far looks no more trustworthy than Joseph Smith's original con. I don't sit on either the postmormon.org board or the advisory board, but I'm requesting the board to post an explicit disclaimer of any relationship with or approval of your society.
Signature
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
Phillip K. Dick
Posted: 20 September 2012 05:47 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 48 ]
Avatar
Plato
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2009-10-10
Tessa:
But they don't "command it." It's voluntary.
We are not commanding it either it is voluntary.
Signature
“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 20 September 2012 06:03 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 49 ]
Avatar
Plato
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2009-10-10
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Plato:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Plato,
I've looked at the Society's website and facebook page, and I have some questions.
First, how is the Society legally organized? Is there a corporation? Limited Liablity Company? 501(c)(3) non profit?
Second, the facebook page shows lots of members, most of whom were added to the group by Jonathan Brown. Of the people who were invited and accepted, several are obvious fakes (e.g., characters from the Book of Mormon Musical). Who are the real people leaders of this group? How many actual people have agreed to become members?
The Society's webpage solitics donations. Where do those donations go? Who is responsible for accounting for them?
The Society's webpage has references to lots of other organizations. Which specific organizations have expressly endorsed the Society?
I'd appreciate it if you could clarify.
Brad
We are in the process of seeking incorporation as a non-profit religious institution. Steven J. Strang is in charge of accounting and donations.
The Society for Humanistic Mormonism is part of the
AMERICAN HUMANIST ASSOCIATION | AHA CHAPTERS AND AFFILIATES
Society for Humanistic Mormonism
1435 Southwood Drive
Mishawka IN, 46544
Contact: James Edward Nickels
Email: .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
URL: http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/
(See their website for proof: http://www.americanhumanist.org/view/EN/What_We_Do/Local_Groups/AHA_Chapters2?page=7)
Our other associations are listed here:
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm#!affiliations/ck27
So, you threw up a snazzy looking website with a paypal link asking for donations even though there is no legal entity to receive them. It's not organized as a nonprofit or anything else. The webpage doesn't disclose who the founders, leaders, apostles are or what will be done with the donations. Some guy named Strang is in charge of the money. You are dodgy with the most straigtforward of questions about how your organization is set up, how it works, and who it is affiliated with. You add lots of people to your facebook page to make it look as if all sorts of folks are involved with your society, when in fact you've added almost all of them without their permission. You create a sockpuppet here to pass off as the prophet of this organization. All of this while acting as head of a local postmormon.org chapter.
If you want to promote some kind of organization, get your house in order before asking for money. Be transparent and scrupulously honest about who you are, your leadership is. Fully disclose exactly where the money goes if when someone clicks on the paypal link and publicly account for how it is spent. And resign as a postmormon.org chapter leader.
I have no idea what your actual intent is, but what you've done so far looks no more trustworthy than Joseph Smith's original con. I don't sit on either the postmormon.org board or the advisory board, but I'm requesting the board to post an explicit disclaimer of any relationship with or approval of your society.
Religions do not need legal recognition from the state to be organized the only reason they do so is for tax purposes but churchs can pay taxes. Did Jesus set up a non-profit? Nope. Needless to say we plan on doing so but there is nothing legally saying we need recognition by the state. This functions as a free Church as of right now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_church In fact authority to start a religion does not belong to the state; it belongs to free citizens. If a Church or a religion does ask for state recognition they can seek it but they are not required too. Plus in the United States we believe in this thing called separation of Church and state. 10% of America’s churches are "free" or unincorporated — a figure which is skewed, because the state constitutions of Virginia and West Virginia do not allow churches to incorporate.
We plan on putting the organizational chart up on the website soon so yes we do believe in full disclosure. We would like to have at least 12 Apostles before we do so; as this is according to tradition so far we have three still need nine more.
I told Jeff Ricks the reason I created a second character was so there was no conflict of interest between my role as chapter leader and my role as President of this Society. I asked him if I should create another character or merge with the one I have and he told me to keep the one I have. He didn't tell me to resign as chapter leader but if he wants me to do that, just give me the word Mr. Ricks and I will faithfully resign.
By the way I think its expecting a lot for any institution once they first get started to have everything 'in order' this is afterall a new religion. ;) But yes we are seeking non-profit status as well as a religious incorporation, not because we have to but because we think this is the best form of government for this Society.
I think I made my actual intent clear. You can either choose to believe me or call me a cult leader. I really can't control yours or anyone's points of view if you all ready have negative feelings nor am I going to waste my time or yours trying.
However there still remains questions as to who elected the Board of Directors for Postmormon.org and where the money goes and whether Jeff Ricks was democratically elected. Do Post-Mormons here get to vote?
Questions remain even about what the true intents are of this website and whether it is democratically run.
Signature
“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 20 September 2012 06:37 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 50 ]
Avatar
Plato
Long Timer
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Joined 2009-10-10
“Today man’s larger understanding of the universe, his scientific achievements,..have created a situation which requires a new statement of the means and purposes of religion. Such a vital, fearless, and frank religion capable of furnishing adequate social goals and personal satisfactions may appear to many people as a complete break with the past. While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…”
-Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.”
-Carl Sagan
In the tradition of the early Humanists who wrote Humanist I and Carl Sagan, I say: Humanistic Mormons of the World Unite! :)
By the way I just want to point out that we are not against other Humanist associations that is why the Society is an affiliate of the American Humanist Association.
You will find the Society listed here on their website:
http://www.americanhumanist.org/view/EN/What_We_Do/Local_Groups/AHA_Chapters2?page=7
Also we are an an endorsing organization to the Secular Coalition for America
You can find us listed here on their website:
http://secular.org/endorsing_orgs
We are also an endorsing organization to the The Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers, whose current President (Jason Torpy http://militaryatheists.org/jasontorpy.html), helped us to come up with the symbol for Humanistic Mormonism and the Society for Humanistic Mormonism, a white rose with a happy human. http://www.militaryatheists.org/chaplain.html
He's was never even Mormon and wants to help us and we thank him.
Here's what MormonThink.com had to say:
From: Mormon Think (.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address))
Sent: Wed 7/04/12 2:25 AM
Thanks guys. We are honored.
MT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
Subject: RE: Society for Humanistic Mormonism
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2012 10:20:34 -0400
On behalf of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism, we would like to become an affiliate of your fine organization.
Here is our facebook group and who we are (correct one) :): http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/
Needless to say they are the only Post-Mormon thing, or Sunstone type of thing that has accepted us. So we thank MormonThink.com
Signature
“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 20 September 2012 06:38 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 51 ]
Avatar
Brad (ZeeZrom)
Moderator
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Joined 2007-05-08
Let me get this straight. You recognized the conflict of interest between your positions as postmormon.org chapter leader and prophet in your new church. And the way you attempted to address the conflict was to create a fake identity as a sockpuppet? You don't fix a conflict of interest by pretending to be two different people.
It's not too much to expect a legitimate organization to have its house in order before it puts up a pay pal link to ask for donations. And it's not too much to ask to be transparent when you come here to solicit folks here to become member/officers of your organization.
Signature
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
Phillip K. Dick
Posted: 20 September 2012 06:49 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 52 ]
Avatar
Plato
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2009-10-10
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Let me get this straight. You recognized the conflict of interest between your positions as postmormon.org chapter leader and prophet in your new church. And the way you attempted to address the conflict was to create a fake identity as a sockpuppet? You don't fix a conflict of interest by pretending to be two different people.
It's not too much to expect a legitimate organization to have its house in order before it puts up a pay pal link to ask for donations. And it's not too much to ask to be transparent when you come here to solicit folks here to become member/officers of your organization.
Actually I feel I can be both chapter leader and President-Prophet of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism as I don't really see Postmormon.org as incompatible with the Society or the goals of this website.
So I prefer to keep both titles because I can do both. However I am willing to resign if the Prophet of Postmormon.org wishes me too. ;)
Although Jeff Ricks doesn't trust me I trust that he will make the right decison here.
My understanding is that this is a place for people not to leave Mormonism but a place to see if they want to leave Mormonism. As far as I am aware Post-Mormonism is not a religion. If you turn this into a place where only one view is allowed that is up to you.
Signature
“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 20 September 2012 06:55 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 53 ]
Avatar
Jeff Ricks
Administrator
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Joined 2004-07-20
Plato:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Plato:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Plato,
I've looked at the Society's website and facebook page, and I have some questions.
First, how is the Society legally organized? Is there a corporation? Limited Liablity Company? 501(c)(3) non profit?
Second, the facebook page shows lots of members, most of whom were added to the group by Jonathan Brown. Of the people who were invited and accepted, several are obvious fakes (e.g., characters from the Book of Mormon Musical). Who are the real people leaders of this group? How many actual people have agreed to become members?
The Society's webpage solitics donations. Where do those donations go? Who is responsible for accounting for them?
The Society's webpage has references to lots of other organizations. Which specific organizations have expressly endorsed the Society?
I'd appreciate it if you could clarify.
Brad
We are in the process of seeking incorporation as a non-profit religious institution. Steven J. Strang is in charge of accounting and donations.
The Society for Humanistic Mormonism is part of the
AMERICAN HUMANIST ASSOCIATION | AHA CHAPTERS AND AFFILIATES
Society for Humanistic Mormonism
1435 Southwood Drive
Mishawka IN, 46544
Contact: James Edward Nickels
Email: .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
URL: http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/
(See their website for proof: http://www.americanhumanist.org/view/EN/What_We_Do/Local_Groups/AHA_Chapters2?page=7)
Our other associations are listed here:
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm#!affiliations/ck27
So, you threw up a snazzy looking website with a paypal link asking for donations even though there is no legal entity to receive them. It's not organized as a nonprofit or anything else. The webpage doesn't disclose who the founders, leaders, apostles are or what will be done with the donations. Some guy named Strang is in charge of the money. You are dodgy with the most straigtforward of questions about how your organization is set up, how it works, and who it is affiliated with. You add lots of people to your facebook page to make it look as if all sorts of folks are involved with your society, when in fact you've added almost all of them without their permission. You create a sockpuppet here to pass off as the prophet of this organization. All of this while acting as head of a local postmormon.org chapter.
If you want to promote some kind of organization, get your house in order before asking for money. Be transparent and scrupulously honest about who you are, your leadership is. Fully disclose exactly where the money goes if when someone clicks on the paypal link and publicly account for how it is spent. And resign as a postmormon.org chapter leader.
I have no idea what your actual intent is, but what you've done so far looks no more trustworthy than Joseph Smith's original con. I don't sit on either the postmormon.org board or the advisory board, but I'm requesting the board to post an explicit disclaimer of any relationship with or approval of your society.
Religions do not need legal recognition from the state to be organized the only reason they do so is for tax purposes but churchs can pay taxes. Did Jesus set up a non-profit? Nope. Needless to say we plan on doing so but there is nothing legally saying we need recognition by the state. This functions as a free Church as of right now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_church In fact authority to start a religion does not belong to the state; it belongs to free citizens. If a Church or a religion does ask for state recognition they can seek it but they are not required too. Plus in the United States we believe in this thing called separation of Church and state. 10% of America’s churches are "free" or unincorporated — a figure which is skewed, because the state constitutions of Virginia and West Virginia do not allow churches to incorporate.
We plan on putting the organizational chart up on the website soon so yes we do believe in full disclosure. We would like to have at least 12 Apostles before we do so; as this is according to tradition so far we have three still need nine more.
I told Jeff Ricks the reason I created a second character was so there was no conflict of interest between my role as chapter leader and my role as President of this Society. I asked him if I should create another character or merge with the one I have and he told me to keep the one I have. He didn't tell me to resign as chapter leader but if he wants me to do that, just give me the word Mr. Ricks and I will faithfully resign.
By the way I think its expecting a lot for any institution once they first get started to have everything 'in order' this is afterall a new religion. ;) But yes we are seeking non-profit status as well as a religious incorporation, not because we have to but because we think this is the best form of government for this Society.
I think I made my actual intent clear. You can either choose to believe me or call me a cult leader. I really can't control yours or anyone's points of view if you all ready have negative feelings nor am I going to waste my time or yours trying.
However there still remains questions as to who elected the Board of Directors for Postmormon.org and where the money goes and whether Jeff Ricks was democratically elected. Do Post-Mormons here get to vote?
Questions remain even about what the true intents are of this website and whether it is democratically run.
Plato, right now look to your left on this page. You see the sticky note near the top called Post-Mormon News? Under that heading do you see the financial reports? We literally account for every penny -- seriously every penny -- since the organization started in 2005. The intent has been made clear by the mission statement, also drafted in early 2005.
[ETA: No one has been paid a penny or has even been reimursed for travel expenses, or any expense for that matter. ]
The organization was created by a Board of Trustees, consisting of five people. I was elected by the Board of Trustees as the Vice Chairman and the Executive Manger. I work for the Trustees and can be fired by them at any time they choose and I won't be able to do a thing about it.
IF you get your organization off the ground, after your first annual election it will dawn on you that it wasn't such a good idea to allow members to vote in the leaders each year because 1) you never know who you're going to end up with as leaders, 2) you won't even know if the team that's been cobbled together can get along, 3) you have no continuity from year to year and will therefore have a hard time sustaining any long-term programs. That's why Peter Drucker, author of Managing the Non-Profit Organization, advises against members electing the leaders of the organization. But if you want to go against the advice of one of the most widely known experts on managing organizations, I say, go for it.
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When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine
Posted: 20 September 2012 07:03 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 54 ]
Avatar
Jeff Ricks
Administrator
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Joined 2004-07-20
Plato:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Let me get this straight. You recognized the conflict of interest between your positions as postmormon.org chapter leader and prophet in your new church. And the way you attempted to address the conflict was to create a fake identity as a sockpuppet? You don't fix a conflict of interest by pretending to be two different people.
It's not too much to expect a legitimate organization to have its house in order before it puts up a pay pal link to ask for donations. And it's not too much to ask to be transparent when you come here to solicit folks here to become member/officers of your organization.
Actually I feel I can be both chapter leader and President-Prophet of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism as I don't really see Postmormon.org as incompatible with the Society or the goals of this website.
So I prefer to keep both titles because I can do both. However I am willing to resign if the Prophet of Postmormon.org wishes me too. ;)
Although Jeff Ricks doesn't trust me I trust that he will make the right decison here.
My understanding is that this is a place for people not to leave Mormonism but a place to see if they want to leave Mormonism. As far as I am aware Post-Mormonism is not a religion. If you turn this into a place where only one view is allowed that is up to you.
Please don't call me a prophet. I despise the title.
Signature
When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine
Posted: 20 September 2012 07:06 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 55 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
Moderator
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Joined 2007-05-08
If you don't think there is a conflict of interest, why did you create a fake identity for your prophet? And just so it's clear, you did that without telling Jeff. It came up only because Jeff noticed that you and your sockpuppet were posting from the same IP address.
And to make it clear so people don't get confused: your society endorses the SCA -- they don't endorse you. The MMAF website doesn't endorse you either.
And here's what it means to be an "affiliate" of the AHA:
Affiliates, many of whom are primarily associated with other national organizations, are local groups who agree with the mission of the AHA while maintaining a clear and separate identity. Affiliates receive benefits from the AHA with a minimal amount of commitment. Affiliating with the AHA is a good first step for some local groups to gain exposure to the wider Humanist community.
All that means is that you agree with the mission of the AHA. It is in no way an endorsement of your organization.
As for MormonThink, if I were them, I'd vet an organization before I agreed to endorse it. But that's just me.
Signature
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
Phillip K. Dick
Posted: 20 September 2012 07:09 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 56 ]
Avatar
Plato
Long Timer
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Joined 2009-10-10
Jeff Ricks:
Plato:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Plato:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Plato,
I've looked at the Society's website and facebook page, and I have some questions.
First, how is the Society legally organized? Is there a corporation? Limited Liablity Company? 501(c)(3) non profit?
Second, the facebook page shows lots of members, most of whom were added to the group by Jonathan Brown. Of the people who were invited and accepted, several are obvious fakes (e.g., characters from the Book of Mormon Musical). Who are the real people leaders of this group? How many actual people have agreed to become members?
The Society's webpage solitics donations. Where do those donations go? Who is responsible for accounting for them?
The Society's webpage has references to lots of other organizations. Which specific organizations have expressly endorsed the Society?
I'd appreciate it if you could clarify.
Brad
We are in the process of seeking incorporation as a non-profit religious institution. Steven J. Strang is in charge of accounting and donations.
The Society for Humanistic Mormonism is part of the
AMERICAN HUMANIST ASSOCIATION | AHA CHAPTERS AND AFFILIATES
Society for Humanistic Mormonism
1435 Southwood Drive
Mishawka IN, 46544
Contact: James Edward Nickels
Email: .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
URL: http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/
(See their website for proof: http://www.americanhumanist.org/view/EN/What_We_Do/Local_Groups/AHA_Chapters2?page=7)
Our other associations are listed here:
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm#!affiliations/ck27
So, you threw up a snazzy looking website with a paypal link asking for donations even though there is no legal entity to receive them. It's not organized as a nonprofit or anything else. The webpage doesn't disclose who the founders, leaders, apostles are or what will be done with the donations. Some guy named Strang is in charge of the money. You are dodgy with the most straigtforward of questions about how your organization is set up, how it works, and who it is affiliated with. You add lots of people to your facebook page to make it look as if all sorts of folks are involved with your society, when in fact you've added almost all of them without their permission. You create a sockpuppet here to pass off as the prophet of this organization. All of this while acting as head of a local postmormon.org chapter.
If you want to promote some kind of organization, get your house in order before asking for money. Be transparent and scrupulously honest about who you are, your leadership is. Fully disclose exactly where the money goes if when someone clicks on the paypal link and publicly account for how it is spent. And resign as a postmormon.org chapter leader.
I have no idea what your actual intent is, but what you've done so far looks no more trustworthy than Joseph Smith's original con. I don't sit on either the postmormon.org board or the advisory board, but I'm requesting the board to post an explicit disclaimer of any relationship with or approval of your society.
Religions do not need legal recognition from the state to be organized the only reason they do so is for tax purposes but churchs can pay taxes. Did Jesus set up a non-profit? Nope. Needless to say we plan on doing so but there is nothing legally saying we need recognition by the state. This functions as a free Church as of right now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_church In fact authority to start a religion does not belong to the state; it belongs to free citizens. If a Church or a religion does ask for state recognition they can seek it but they are not required too. Plus in the United States we believe in this thing called separation of Church and state. 10% of America’s churches are "free" or unincorporated — a figure which is skewed, because the state constitutions of Virginia and West Virginia do not allow churches to incorporate.
We plan on putting the organizational chart up on the website soon so yes we do believe in full disclosure. We would like to have at least 12 Apostles before we do so; as this is according to tradition so far we have three still need nine more.
I told Jeff Ricks the reason I created a second character was so there was no conflict of interest between my role as chapter leader and my role as President of this Society. I asked him if I should create another character or merge with the one I have and he told me to keep the one I have. He didn't tell me to resign as chapter leader but if he wants me to do that, just give me the word Mr. Ricks and I will faithfully resign.
By the way I think its expecting a lot for any institution once they first get started to have everything 'in order' this is afterall a new religion. ;) But yes we are seeking non-profit status as well as a religious incorporation, not because we have to but because we think this is the best form of government for this Society.
I think I made my actual intent clear. You can either choose to believe me or call me a cult leader. I really can't control yours or anyone's points of view if you all ready have negative feelings nor am I going to waste my time or yours trying.
However there still remains questions as to who elected the Board of Directors for Postmormon.org and where the money goes and whether Jeff Ricks was democratically elected. Do Post-Mormons here get to vote?
Questions remain even about what the true intents are of this website and whether it is democratically run.
Plato, right now look to your left on this page. You see the sticky note near the top called Post-Mormon News? Under that heading do you see the financial reports? We literally account for every penny -- seriously every penny -- since the organization started in 2005. The intent has been made clear by the mission statement, also drafted in early 2005.
The organization was created by a Board of Trustees, consisting of five people. I was elected by the Board of Trustees as the Vice Chairman and the Executive Manger. I work for the Trustees and can be fired by them at any time they choose and I won't be able to do a thing about it.
IF you get your organization off the ground, after your first annual election it will dawn on you that it wasn't such a good idea to allow members to vote in the leaders each year because 1) you never know who you're going to end up with as leaders, 2) you won't even know if the team that's been cobbled together can get along, 3) you have no continuity from year to year and will therefore have a hard time sustaining any long-term programs. That's why Peter Drucker, author of Managing the Non-Profit Organization, advises against members electing the leaders of the organization. But if you want to go against the advice of one of the most widely known experts on managing organizations, I say, go for it.
I like the idea of reporting donations. I believe we can do this for the Society's website as well.
Now as to your voting methods and the argument that it is not "a good idea to allow members to vote in the leader each year" because of "you never know who you will end up" well...what if we did that for the United States and we said let's not allow the citizens to vote each year for who they want, that wouldn't be a democratically run country would it? Or your second statement: "You won't even know if the team...can get along" well that's like saying we should only have Republicans (or people that all agree) let's not let in those evil Democrats. Again that doesn't sound very democratic to me. Or your statement that there would be "no continuity from year to year" well if that is your argument than Hosni Mubarak the former dictator and president of Egypt would still be President-Dictator for life! Surely that's not democratic is it for Postmormon.org?
You seem to think that democracies as I advance them for the Society for Humanistic Mormonism (and I would argue should be the case for Postmormon.org) is going to fail, on the contrary democratic methods would strengthen this website and also bring in fresh blood and new ideas. I think you might have too little faith in the democratic process; which Humanists promote. Also using Peter Drucker is an argument from authority, not based off of rational argumentation.
However having stated that I will consider your arguments for a less democratically run institution; there might be some truth to them, but still have my reservations.
Signature
“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 20 September 2012 07:19 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 57 ]
Avatar
Plato
Long Timer
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Joined 2009-10-10
Brad (ZeeZrom):
If you don't think there is a conflict of interest, why did you create a fake identity for your prophet? And just so it's clear, you did that without telling Jeff. It came up only because Jeff noticed that you and your sockpuppet were posting from the same IP address.
And to make it clear so people don't get confused: your society endorses the SCA -- they don't endorse you. The MMAF website doesn't endorse you either.
And here's what it means to be an "affiliate" of the AHA:
Affiliates, many of whom are primarily associated with other national organizations, are local groups who agree with the mission of the AHA while maintaining a clear and separate identity. Affiliates receive benefits from the AHA with a minimal amount of commitment. Affiliating with the AHA is a good first step for some local groups to gain exposure to the wider Humanist community.
All that means is that you agree with the mission of the AHA. It is in no way an endorsement of your organization.
As for MormonThink, if I were them, I'd vet an organization before I agreed to endorse it. But that's just me.
I have clearly stated that we are what is called Endorsing organizations for the MMAF and SCA you can find us listed here on their website:
http://secular.org/endorsing_orgs
So I really don't think you have an argument here. But keep trying. ;)
And you all ready admitted what I said that we are an affiliate of the American Humanist Association.
You will find the Society listed here on their website:
http://www.americanhumanist.org/view/EN/What_We_Do/Local_Groups/AHA_Chapters2?page=7
Also your point is mute on the other issues as I all ready addressed them.
Signature
“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 20 September 2012 07:19 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 58 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
Moderator
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Joined 2007-05-08
Plato, you're going to have to defend your behavior on its own merits. Not try to shift the discussion to what we do here. Trying to change the subject is the oldest trick in the book.
Signature
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
Phillip K. Dick
Posted: 20 September 2012 07:22 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 59 ]
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Plato
Long Timer
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Joined 2009-10-10
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Plato, you're going to have to defend your behavior on its own merits. Not try to shift the discussion to what we do here. Trying to change the subject is the oldest trick in the book.
I have Brad. But you also need to answer questions about how this place is run. And whether it is really democratic. I all ready told you my plan for a democratic Society. I have yet to see clearly yours acting democratic, in the arguments put forward by Mr. Jeff.
Case in point Mr. Ricks says and I responded:
Now as to your voting methods and the argument that it is not "a good idea to allow members to vote in the leader each year" because of "you never know who you will end up" well...what if we did that for the United States and we said let's not allow the citizens to vote each year for who they want, that wouldn't be a democratically run country would it? Or your second statement: "You won't even know if the team...can get along" well that's like saying we should only have Republicans (or people that all agree) let's not let in those evil Democrats. Again that doesn't sound very democratic to me. Or your statement that there would be "no continuity from year to year" well if that is your argument than Hosni Mubarak the former dictator and president of Egypt would still be President-Dictator for life! Surely that's not democratic is it for Postmormon.org?
Signature
“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 20 September 2012 07:30 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 60 ]
Avatar
Brad (ZeeZrom)
Moderator
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Joined 2007-05-08
Plato, here's my bet. If 20 of my friends and I signed up for your web page and "voted" you out as prophet, you'd somehow still be prophet. Where are the organization's rules or by-laws under which your election was held. Did anyone run against you? Who was eligible to vote? How many people voted?
Trying to change the subject to avoid scrutiny is one of the oldest tricks in the playbook. (In fact, right out of the FAIR/FARMS playbook.) It's a sure sign that something stinks in your new church.
Signature
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
Phillip K. Dick
Posted: 20 September 2012 07:32 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 61 ]
Avatar
Jeff Ricks
Administrator
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Joined 2004-07-20
Plato:
I like the idea of reporting donations. I believe we can do this for the Society's website as well.
Now as to your voting methods and the argument that it is not "a good idea to allow members to vote in the leader each year" because of "you never know who you will end up" well...what if we did that for the United States and we said let's not allow the citizens to vote each year for who they want, that wouldn't be a democratically run country would it? Or your second statement: "You won't even know if the team...can get along" well that's like saying we should only have Republicans (or people that all agree) let's not let in those evil Democrats. Again that doesn't sound very democratic to me. Or your statement that there would be "no continuity from year to year" well if that is your argument than Hosni Mubarak the former dictator and president of Egypt would still be President-Dictator for life! Surely that's not democratic is it for Postmormon.org?
You seem to think that democracies as I advance them for the Society for Humanistic Mormonism (and I would argue should be the case for Postmormon.org) is going to fail, on the contrary democratic methods would strengthen this website and also bring in fresh blood and new ideas. I think you might have too little faith in the democratic process; which Humanists promote. Also using Peter Drucker is an argument from authority, not based off of rational argumentation.
However having stated that I will consider your arguments for a less democratically run institution; there might be some truth to them, but still have my reservations.
Say what you want but you can't argue with results. We've accomplished quite a lot for a small organization. Here's a link to a visual recap of our history. It doesn't include the most recent successes -- a segment in a documentary that aired nationally in France, a different on that aired nationally in the UK, and on Friday I was interviewed for one that will air nationally in Germany.
There's never been an abuse of authority, never a financial scandal, never even any disputes between management team members. I would describe PostMo as managment light and results heavy. You can see that most directly in how the discussion forum is managed -- moderator light and discussion heavy (unlike most other active discussion forums that require more moderation). You organize wisely and recruit the right people, and things run pretty smoothly. If people don't like how PostMo operates then they can vote with their feet, but look at how many new members we have in the last 24 hours (the sticky not on the right of this page), and I haven't approved the registrations for today yet!
But hey, if you think you know better than one of the most widely respected experts on managing an organization, be my guest. Do you have any experience with running a successful organization? It takes more than grandiose claims and big promises.
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When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine
Posted: 20 September 2012 07:34 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 62 ]
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Plato
Long Timer
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Joined 2009-10-10
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Plato, here's my bet. If 20 of my friends and I signed up for your web page and "voted" you out as prophet, you'd somehow still be prophet. Where are the organization's rules or by-laws under which your election was held. Did anyone run against you? Who was eligible to vote? How many people voted?
Trying to change the subject to avoid scrutiny is one of the oldest tricks in the playbook. (In fact, right out of the FAIR/FARMS playbook.) It's a sure sign that something stinks in your new church.
Ah but my questions are not answered yet as to why you feel this place Post-Mormons should not have the right to vote in the Board. You need to address my arguments for democracy. Whether it was 20 or 10 or 6. Really doesn't matter a democracy is a vote! And that is what we had.
Signature
“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 20 September 2012 07:38 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 63 ]
Avatar
Plato
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2009-10-10
Jeff Ricks:
Plato:
I like the idea of reporting donations. I believe we can do this for the Society's website as well.
Now as to your voting methods and the argument that it is not "a good idea to allow members to vote in the leader each year" because of "you never know who you will end up" well...what if we did that for the United States and we said let's not allow the citizens to vote each year for who they want, that wouldn't be a democratically run country would it? Or your second statement: "You won't even know if the team...can get along" well that's like saying we should only have Republicans (or people that all agree) let's not let in those evil Democrats. Again that doesn't sound very democratic to me. Or your statement that there would be "no continuity from year to year" well if that is your argument than Hosni Mubarak the former dictator and president of Egypt would still be President-Dictator for life! Surely that's not democratic is it for Postmormon.org?
You seem to think that democracies as I advance them for the Society for Humanistic Mormonism (and I would argue should be the case for Postmormon.org) is going to fail, on the contrary democratic methods would strengthen this website and also bring in fresh blood and new ideas. I think you might have too little faith in the democratic process; which Humanists promote. Also using Peter Drucker is an argument from authority, not based off of rational argumentation.
However having stated that I will consider your arguments for a less democratically run institution; there might be some truth to them, but still have my reservations.
Say what you want but you can't argue with results. We've accomplished quite a lot for a small organization. Here's a link to a visual recap of our history. It doesn't include the most recent successes -- a segment in a documentary that aired nationally in France, a different on that aired nationally in the UK, and on Friday I was interviewed for one that will air nationally in Germany.
There's never been an abuse of authority, never a financial scandal, never even any disputes between management team members. I would describe PostMo as managment light and results heavy. You can see that most directly in how the discussion forum is managed -- moderator light and discussion heavy. You organize wisely and recruit the right people, and things run pretty smoothly. If people don't like how PostMo operates then vote with their feet, but look at how many new members we have (the sticky not on the right of this page), and I haven't approved the registrations for today yet!
But hey, if you think you know better than one of the most widely respected experts on managing an organization, be my guest. Do you have any experience with running a successful organization? It takes more than grandiose claims and big promises.
"Say what you want but you can't argue with results." Sure I can agrue with results. I can question whether your results were democratically won. As of right now I am not seeing it. Nor are the LDS Church's results democratically won.
However I will take into consideration your arguments for a less democratic way of organizing our Society.
Signature
“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 20 September 2012 07:51 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 64 ]
Avatar
Brad (ZeeZrom)
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2007-05-08
Plato:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Plato, here's my bet. If 20 of my friends and I signed up for your web page and "voted" you out as prophet, you'd somehow still be prophet. Where are the organization's rules or by-laws under which your election was held. Did anyone run against you? Who was eligible to vote? How many people voted?
Trying to change the subject to avoid scrutiny is one of the oldest tricks in the playbook. (In fact, right out of the FAIR/FARMS playbook.) It's a sure sign that something stinks in your new church.
Ah but my questions are not answered yet as to why you feel this place Post-Mormons should not have the right to vote in the Board. You need to address my arguments for democracy. Whether it was 20 or 10 or 6. Really doesn't matter a democracy is a vote! And that is what we had.
In other words, all your bluster about democracy is just more bullshit.
Postmormon.org is what it is. It was set up with a structure intended to help it carry out its defined mission. It has never pretended to be otherwise.
If you or anyone else wants set up an organization that does what postmormon.org does with officers elected by whoever signs up, you're free to do so. If it accomplishes its mission better than postmormon.org does, good on you.
Signature
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
Phillip K. Dick
Posted: 20 September 2012 08:05 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 65 ]
Avatar
Plato
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2009-10-10
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Plato:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Plato, here's my bet. If 20 of my friends and I signed up for your web page and "voted" you out as prophet, you'd somehow still be prophet. Where are the organization's rules or by-laws under which your election was held. Did anyone run against you? Who was eligible to vote? How many people voted?
Trying to change the subject to avoid scrutiny is one of the oldest tricks in the playbook. (In fact, right out of the FAIR/FARMS playbook.) It's a sure sign that something stinks in your new church.
Ah but my questions are not answered yet as to why you feel this place Post-Mormons should not have the right to vote in the Board. You need to address my arguments for democracy. Whether it was 20 or 10 or 6. Really doesn't matter a democracy is a vote! And that is what we had.
In other words, all your bluster about democracy is just more bullshit.
Postmormon.org is what it is. It was set up with a structure intended to help it carry out its defined mission. It has never pretended to be otherwise.
If you or anyone else wants set up an organization that does what postmormon.org does with officers elected by whoever signs up, you're free to do so. If it accomplishes its mission better than postmormon.org does, good on you.
On Sept. 9th 2012 the elections took place from our minutes:
Members are those who voted in the meeting. I was voted in and sustained as President and Prophet of the Society. The following were voted in as the First Presidency:
James Edward Nickels Jr
1st Counselor in the First Presidency, President of the Quorum of the Twelve
Scott Bennion (yes related to Lowell L. Bennion)
2nd Counselor in the First Presidency
The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles for the Society for Humanistic Mormonism is under the authority of The First Presidency for the Society for Humanistic Mormonism which is the governing body of this religion and institution. Both the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles serve as the two leading bodies for the Society for Humanistic Mormonism.
The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles' Mission is to give advice to the First Presidency on the governing philosophy, beliefs, and rituals of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism who in turn make final decisions on what governing principles or beliefs will be incorporated into the Society.
Current members of the The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles who were voted in for the Society for Humanistic Mormonism include:
1. Bruce Spaulding, Acting President
2. Melanie Van Orden
3. Devon Atkins
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
James Edward Nickels, Jr. was also voted in as Presiding Patriarch to the Society for Humanistic Mormonism.
Those who are able to vote are those who have been baptized as Humanistic Mormons and agree to commit to the philosophy of Humanistic Mormonism.
Needless to say at this time those who have been baptized are the members of the First Presidency and the members of the Twelve as well as one local Bishop who lives in Kentucky. Which means there are 7 members in the Society officially. :)
Now numbers are not that revelant because there were only 5 members of the Board here at Postmormon.org. Also I can be voted out of my current office if the other members agree to remove me. Personally I don't really want to be the Prophet of Reason forever. Let some fresh blood in. :)
In our Society Prophets and Apostles are democratically elected at least once a year.
Now if I follow Jeff Ricks advice I wouldn't do this. I don't see this as democratic however. All members can self-nominate themselves to run for office if they choose to do so. Than once a year we vote, I think that is more democratic than what Postmormon.org has in place. But like Jeff Ricks said "you can't argue with results." But what if Jeff I am able to achieve beyond what Postmormon.org has achieved in a more democratic fashion, will you come around to my point of view, Brad-Jeff? Or keep things here undemocratic? Seems to be that I don't need to reform but you do.
Signature
“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 20 September 2012 08:19 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 66 ]
Avatar
Jeff Ricks
Administrator
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2004-07-20
Plato:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Plato:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Plato, here's my bet. If 20 of my friends and I signed up for your web page and "voted" you out as prophet, you'd somehow still be prophet. Where are the organization's rules or by-laws under which your election was held. Did anyone run against you? Who was eligible to vote? How many people voted?
Trying to change the subject to avoid scrutiny is one of the oldest tricks in the playbook. (In fact, right out of the FAIR/FARMS playbook.) It's a sure sign that something stinks in your new church.
Ah but my questions are not answered yet as to why you feel this place Post-Mormons should not have the right to vote in the Board. You need to address my arguments for democracy. Whether it was 20 or 10 or 6. Really doesn't matter a democracy is a vote! And that is what we had.
In other words, all your bluster about democracy is just more bullshit.
Postmormon.org is what it is. It was set up with a structure intended to help it carry out its defined mission. It has never pretended to be otherwise.
If you or anyone else wants set up an organization that does what postmormon.org does with officers elected by whoever signs up, you're free to do so. If it accomplishes its mission better than postmormon.org does, good on you.
On Sept. 9th 2012 the elections took place from our minutes:
Members are those who voted in the meeting. I was voted in and sustained as President and Prophet of the Society. The following were voted in as the First Presidency:
James Edward Nickels Jr
1st Counselor in the First Presidency, President of the Quorum of the Twelve
Scott Bennion (yes related to Lowell L. Bennion)
2nd Counselor in the First Presidency
The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles for the Society for Humanistic Mormonism is under the authority of The First Presidency for the Society for Humanistic Mormonism which is the governing body of this religion and institution. Both the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles serve as the two leading bodies for the Society for Humanistic Mormonism.
The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles' Mission is to give advice to the First Presidency on the governing philosophy, beliefs, and rituals of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism who in turn make final decisions on what governing principles or beliefs will be incorporated into the Society.
Current members of the The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles who were voted in for the Society for Humanistic Mormonism include:
1. Bruce Spaulding, Acting President
2. Melanie Van Orden
3. Devon Atkins
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
James Edward Nickels, Jr. was also voted in as Presiding Patriarch to the Society for Humanistic Mormonism.
Those who are able to vote are those who have been baptized as Humanistic Mormons and agree to commit to the philosophy of Humanistic Mormonism.
Needless to say at this time those who have been baptized are the members of the First Presidency and the members of the Twelve as well as one local Bishop who lives in Kentucky. Which means there are 7 members in the Society officially. :)
Now numbers are not that revelant because there were only 5 members of the Board here at Postmormon.org. Also I can be voted out of my current office if the other members agree to remove me. Personally I don't really want to be the Prophet of Reason forever. Let some fresh blood in. :)
In our Society Prophets and Apostles are democratically elected at least once a year.
Now if I follow Jeff Ricks advice I wouldn't do this. I don't see this as democratic however. All members can self-nominate themselves to run for office if they choose to do so. Than once a year we vote, I think that is more democratic than what Postmormon.org has in place. But like Jeff Ricks said "you can't argue with results." But what if Jeff I am able to achieve beyond what Postmormon.org has achieved in a more democratic fashion, will you come around to my point of view, Brad-Jeff? Or keep things here undemocratic? Seems to be that I don't need to reform but you do.
That last sentence of yours is quite a baffling conclusion. We have to reform because you imagine in your head that you'll be more successful than PostMo? Are you serious?
Signature
When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine
Posted: 20 September 2012 08:27 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 67 ]
Avatar
Plato
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2009-10-10
Jeff Ricks:
Plato:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Plato:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Plato, here's my bet. If 20 of my friends and I signed up for your web page and "voted" you out as prophet, you'd somehow still be prophet. Where are the organization's rules or by-laws under which your election was held. Did anyone run against you? Who was eligible to vote? How many people voted?
Trying to change the subject to avoid scrutiny is one of the oldest tricks in the playbook. (In fact, right out of the FAIR/FARMS playbook.) It's a sure sign that something stinks in your new church.
Ah but my questions are not answered yet as to why you feel this place Post-Mormons should not have the right to vote in the Board. You need to address my arguments for democracy. Whether it was 20 or 10 or 6. Really doesn't matter a democracy is a vote! And that is what we had.
In other words, all your bluster about democracy is just more bullshit.
Postmormon.org is what it is. It was set up with a structure intended to help it carry out its defined mission. It has never pretended to be otherwise.
If you or anyone else wants set up an organization that does what postmormon.org does with officers elected by whoever signs up, you're free to do so. If it accomplishes its mission better than postmormon.org does, good on you.
On Sept. 9th 2012 the elections took place from our minutes:
Members are those who voted in the meeting. I was voted in and sustained as President and Prophet of the Society. The following were voted in as the First Presidency:
James Edward Nickels Jr
1st Counselor in the First Presidency, President of the Quorum of the Twelve
Scott Bennion (yes related to Lowell L. Bennion)
2nd Counselor in the First Presidency
The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles for the Society for Humanistic Mormonism is under the authority of The First Presidency for the Society for Humanistic Mormonism which is the governing body of this religion and institution. Both the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles serve as the two leading bodies for the Society for Humanistic Mormonism.
The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles' Mission is to give advice to the First Presidency on the governing philosophy, beliefs, and rituals of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism who in turn make final decisions on what governing principles or beliefs will be incorporated into the Society.
Current members of the The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles who were voted in for the Society for Humanistic Mormonism include:
1. Bruce Spaulding, Acting President
2. Melanie Van Orden
3. Devon Atkins
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
James Edward Nickels, Jr. was also voted in as Presiding Patriarch to the Society for Humanistic Mormonism.
Those who are able to vote are those who have been baptized as Humanistic Mormons and agree to commit to the philosophy of Humanistic Mormonism.
Needless to say at this time those who have been baptized are the members of the First Presidency and the members of the Twelve as well as one local Bishop who lives in Kentucky. Which means there are 7 members in the Society officially. :)
Now numbers are not that revelant because there were only 5 members of the Board here at Postmormon.org. Also I can be voted out of my current office if the other members agree to remove me. Personally I don't really want to be the Prophet of Reason forever. Let some fresh blood in. :)
In our Society Prophets and Apostles are democratically elected at least once a year.
Now if I follow Jeff Ricks advice I wouldn't do this. I don't see this as democratic however. All members can self-nominate themselves to run for office if they choose to do so. Than once a year we vote, I think that is more democratic than what Postmormon.org has in place. But like Jeff Ricks said "you can't argue with results." But what if Jeff I am able to achieve beyond what Postmormon.org has achieved in a more democratic fashion, will you come around to my point of view, Brad-Jeff? Or keep things here undemocratic? Seems to be that I don't need to reform but you do.
That last sentence of yours is quite a baffling conclusion. We have to reform because you imagine in your head that you'll be more successful than PostMo? Are you serious?
You misunderstood what I said. I am asking you that if in the future we exceed what Postmormon.org has been able to achieve, and we do so based off a more democratic model than yours, will you come around to my point of view and reform Postmormon.org to make it more democratically run in its governance?
The basis of your argument for a less than democratically run Postmormon.org (and for our Society) is if the 'results' are good keep things the way they are. But I am making a claim or a statement of belief that a more democratic governance would achieve results that will outperform Postmormon.org as an institution. I am saying let's try the experiment and see which governance works best. If mine does well you promise to reform Postmormon.org so that all Post-Mormons get to vote in the leadership here and you hold yearly elections, what say you?
Signature
“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 20 September 2012 08:38 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 68 ]
Avatar
Brad (ZeeZrom)
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2007-05-08
The following are my own opinions as a long-term member of postmormon.org and a shorter-term moderator.
Plato, what you seem to be missing is we are not trying to create some all-encompassing organization to replace the LDS church. We focus on a specific mission. The organization is set up to perform that mission effectively.
Once you start talking about elections, you have to decide who will vote. Your organization requires "baptism." "agreement" with our philosophy. So, who is the gatekeeper? Who decides whether someone is in "agreement" with your philosophy? If I say I am in agreement, but I'm really a faithful LDS member who is trying to subvert your organization, will my vote count? Will someone "excommunicate" me and disallow my vote? Will it be acceptable if people join your organization without disclosing their real life identies? If not, how will you verify that? Can the members change the rules anytime they want by holding a vote? Can they hold a a vote more than once a year?
Here, we have pretty loose membership criteria: you sign up, you follow the house rules, you don't detract from the mission of the site. You don't have to disclose a real life identity. As a practical matter, if you're good at it, you can have several sock puppets (not "legally"). It would be extremely ease for a small group of LDS folks to "take over" postmormon.org and dismantle it. Or for atheists to seize control and declare that the site's formal polciy is anti-religion. Or Christians to take over and disallow participation by atheists. There simply is no way to guarantee a genuine democratic process under those circumstances.
Moreover, the founders of the organization created it to do a specific purpose, and were not willing to put that mission up for grabs. That's their right. A true democracy would mean that the majority of people signed up at any given time could change the mission to whatever they chose. At that point, the organization would no longer do what it was created to do.
I have no say in who serves on the board. But I have confidence that the people who serve on it are committed to carrying out the stated mission. I would not have confidence in a board composed of and/or selected by anonymous people on the internet.
If you can build a better mousetrap -- something that does postmormon.org's mission better than postmormon.org does, then good for you. But based on what you've shown so far in terms of organization, leadership, and, especially, money, I personally would't come anywhere near your society.
Signature
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
Phillip K. Dick
Posted: 20 September 2012 08:39 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 69 ]
Avatar
Jeff Ricks
Administrator
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2004-07-20
Plato:
Jeff Ricks:
Plato:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Plato:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Plato, here's my bet. If 20 of my friends and I signed up for your web page and "voted" you out as prophet, you'd somehow still be prophet. Where are the organization's rules or by-laws under which your election was held. Did anyone run against you? Who was eligible to vote? How many people voted?
Trying to change the subject to avoid scrutiny is one of the oldest tricks in the playbook. (In fact, right out of the FAIR/FARMS playbook.) It's a sure sign that something stinks in your new church.
Ah but my questions are not answered yet as to why you feel this place Post-Mormons should not have the right to vote in the Board. You need to address my arguments for democracy. Whether it was 20 or 10 or 6. Really doesn't matter a democracy is a vote! And that is what we had.
In other words, all your bluster about democracy is just more bullshit.
Postmormon.org is what it is. It was set up with a structure intended to help it carry out its defined mission. It has never pretended to be otherwise.
If you or anyone else wants set up an organization that does what postmormon.org does with officers elected by whoever signs up, you're free to do so. If it accomplishes its mission better than postmormon.org does, good on you.
On Sept. 9th 2012 the elections took place from our minutes:
Members are those who voted in the meeting. I was voted in and sustained as President and Prophet of the Society. The following were voted in as the First Presidency:
James Edward Nickels Jr
1st Counselor in the First Presidency, President of the Quorum of the Twelve
Scott Bennion (yes related to Lowell L. Bennion)
2nd Counselor in the First Presidency
The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles for the Society for Humanistic Mormonism is under the authority of The First Presidency for the Society for Humanistic Mormonism which is the governing body of this religion and institution. Both the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles serve as the two leading bodies for the Society for Humanistic Mormonism.
The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles' Mission is to give advice to the First Presidency on the governing philosophy, beliefs, and rituals of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism who in turn make final decisions on what governing principles or beliefs will be incorporated into the Society.
Current members of the The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles who were voted in for the Society for Humanistic Mormonism include:
1. Bruce Spaulding, Acting President
2. Melanie Van Orden
3. Devon Atkins
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
James Edward Nickels, Jr. was also voted in as Presiding Patriarch to the Society for Humanistic Mormonism.
Those who are able to vote are those who have been baptized as Humanistic Mormons and agree to commit to the philosophy of Humanistic Mormonism.
Needless to say at this time those who have been baptized are the members of the First Presidency and the members of the Twelve as well as one local Bishop who lives in Kentucky. Which means there are 7 members in the Society officially. :)
Now numbers are not that revelant because there were only 5 members of the Board here at Postmormon.org. Also I can be voted out of my current office if the other members agree to remove me. Personally I don't really want to be the Prophet of Reason forever. Let some fresh blood in. :)
In our Society Prophets and Apostles are democratically elected at least once a year.
Now if I follow Jeff Ricks advice I wouldn't do this. I don't see this as democratic however. All members can self-nominate themselves to run for office if they choose to do so. Than once a year we vote, I think that is more democratic than what Postmormon.org has in place. But like Jeff Ricks said "you can't argue with results." But what if Jeff I am able to achieve beyond what Postmormon.org has achieved in a more democratic fashion, will you come around to my point of view, Brad-Jeff? Or keep things here undemocratic? Seems to be that I don't need to reform but you do.
That last sentence of yours is quite a baffling conclusion. We have to reform because you imagine in your head that you'll be more successful than PostMo? Are you serious?
You misunderstood what I said. I am asking you that if in the future we exceed what Postmormon.org has been able to achieve, and we do so based off a more democratic model than yours, will you come around to my point of view and reform Postmormon.org to make it more democratically run in its governance?
The basis of your argument for a less than democratic wrong Postmormon.org (and it would our Society) is if the results are good keep things the way they are. But I am making a claim or a statement of belief that a more democratic goverance would achieve results that will out preform Postmormon.org as an institution. I am saying let's try the experiment and see which goverance works best. If mine does will you reform to become more democratic here?
IF what you imagine becomes a reality then I'm willing to give it a shot but I'm only one member of the board. I'll tell you what, when you do what you imagine you will do, I'll propose it to the board.
Signature
When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine
Posted: 20 September 2012 08:46 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 70 ]
Avatar
Brad (ZeeZrom)
Moderator
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined 2007-05-08
Plato:
Jeff Ricks:
Plato:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Plato:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Plato, here's my bet. If 20 of my friends and I signed up for your web page and "voted" you out as prophet, you'd somehow still be prophet. Where are the organization's rules or by-laws under which your election was held. Did anyone run against you? Who was eligible to vote? How many people voted?
Trying to change the subject to avoid scrutiny is one of the oldest tricks in the playbook. (In fact, right out of the FAIR/FARMS playbook.) It's a sure sign that something stinks in your new church.
Ah but my questions are not answered yet as to why you feel this place Post-Mormons should not have the right to vote in the Board. You need to address my arguments for democracy. Whether it was 20 or 10 or 6. Really doesn't matter a democracy is a vote! And that is what we had.
In other words, all your bluster about democracy is just more bullshit.
Postmormon.org is what it is. It was set up with a structure intended to help it carry out its defined mission. It has never pretended to be otherwise.
If you or anyone else wants set up an organization that does what postmormon.org does with officers elected by whoever signs up, you're free to do so. If it accomplishes its mission better than postmormon.org does, good on you.
On Sept. 9th 2012 the elections took place from our minutes:
Members are those who voted in the meeting. I was voted in and sustained as President and Prophet of the Society. The following were voted in as the First Presidency:
James Edward Nickels Jr
1st Counselor in the First Presidency, President of the Quorum of the Twelve
Scott Bennion (yes related to Lowell L. Bennion)
2nd Counselor in the First Presidency
The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles for the Society for Humanistic Mormonism is under the authority of The First Presidency for the Society for Humanistic Mormonism which is the governing body of this religion and institution. Both the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles serve as the two leading bodies for the Society for Humanistic Mormonism.
The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles' Mission is to give advice to the First Presidency on the governing philosophy, beliefs, and rituals of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism who in turn make final decisions on what governing principles or beliefs will be incorporated into the Society.
Current members of the The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles who were voted in for the Society for Humanistic Mormonism include:
1. Bruce Spaulding, Acting President
2. Melanie Van Orden
3. Devon Atkins
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
James Edward Nickels, Jr. was also voted in as Presiding Patriarch to the Society for Humanistic Mormonism.
Those who are able to vote are those who have been baptized as Humanistic Mormons and agree to commit to the philosophy of Humanistic Mormonism.
Needless to say at this time those who have been baptized are the members of the First Presidency and the members of the Twelve as well as one local Bishop who lives in Kentucky. Which means there are 7 members in the Society officially. :)
Now numbers are not that revelant because there were only 5 members of the Board here at Postmormon.org. Also I can be voted out of my current office if the other members agree to remove me. Personally I don't really want to be the Prophet of Reason forever. Let some fresh blood in. :)
In our Society Prophets and Apostles are democratically elected at least once a year.
Now if I follow Jeff Ricks advice I wouldn't do this. I don't see this as democratic however. All members can self-nominate themselves to run for office if they choose to do so. Than once a year we vote, I think that is more democratic than what Postmormon.org has in place. But like Jeff Ricks said "you can't argue with results." But what if Jeff I am able to achieve beyond what Postmormon.org has achieved in a more democratic fashion, will you come around to my point of view, Brad-Jeff? Or keep things here undemocratic? Seems to be that I don't need to reform but you do.
That last sentence of yours is quite a baffling conclusion. We have to reform because you imagine in your head that you'll be more successful than PostMo? Are you serious?
You misunderstood what I said. I am asking you that if in the future we exceed what Postmormon.org has been able to achieve, and we do so based off a more democratic model than yours, will you come around to my point of view and reform Postmormon.org to make it more democratically run in its governance?
The basis of your argument for a less than democratically run Postmormon.org (and for our Society) is if the 'results' are good keep things the way they are. But I am making a claim or a statement of belief that a more democratic governance would achieve results that will outperform Postmormon.org as an institution. I am saying let's try the experiment and see which governance works best. If mine does well you promise to reform Postmormon.org so that all Post-Mormons get to vote in the leadership here and you hold yearly elections, what say you?
The proof is in the pudding, so why don't you make your pudding before trying to dictate terms to this organization? You have a ton to do to get your own house in order; I'd suggest you concentrate on that.
If you actually believe in your ability to build a better mousetrap, do it and come back for an "I told you so."
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Posted: 20 September 2012 08:51 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 71 ]
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Plato
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
The following are my own opinions as a long-term member of postmormon.org and a shorter-term moderator.
Plato, what you seem to be missing is we are not trying to create some all-encompassing organization to replace the LDS church. We focus on a specific mission. The organization is set up to perform that mission effectively.
Once you start talking about elections, you have to decide who will vote. Your organization requires "baptism." "agreement" with our philosophy. So, who is the gatekeeper? Who decides whether someone is in "agreement" with your philosophy? If I say I am in agreement, but I'm really a faithful LDS member who is trying to subvert your organization, will my vote count? Will someone "excommunicate" me and disallow my vote? Will it be acceptable if people join your organization without disclosing their real life identies? If not, how will you verify that? Can the members change the rules anytime they want by holding a vote? Can they hold a a vote more than once a year?
Here, we have pretty loose membership criteria: you sign up, you follow the house rules, you don't detract from the mission of the site. You don't have to disclose a real life identity. As a practical matter, if you're good at it, you can have several sock puppets (not "legally"). It would be extremely ease for a small group of LDS folks to "take over" postmormon.org and dismantle it. Or for atheists to seize control and declare that the site's formal polciy is anti-religion. Or Christians to take over and disallow participation by atheists. There simply is no way to guarantee a genuine democratic process under those circumstances.
Moreover, the founders of the organization created it to do a specific purpose, and were not willing to put that mission up for grabs. That's their right. A true democracy would mean that the majority of people signed up at any given time could change the mission to whatever they chose. At that point, the organization would no longer do what it was created to do.
I have no say in who serves on the board. But I have confidence that the people who serve on it are committed to carrying out the stated mission. I would not have confidence in a board composed of and/or selected by anonymous people on the internet.
If you can build a better mousetrap -- something that does postmormon.org's mission better than postmormon.org does, then good for you. But based on what you've shown so far in terms of organization, leadership, and, especially, money, I personally would't come anywhere near your society.
"I do not know whether it is to yourself or Mr. Adams I am to give my thanks for the copy of the new constitution. ....Yet where does this anarchy exist? Where did it ever exist, except in the single instance of Massachusets? And can history produce an instance of a rebellion so honourably conducted? I say nothing of it's motives. They were founded in ignorance, not wickedness. God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion.[1] ....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time ..." - Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, Paris, 13 Nov. 1787[2]
So it is with constitutions and mission statements; if Post-Mormons vote in people to this Board which would disband this website, I say so be it! Start the revolution! I find this program here not democratic at all. Your faith in the "leadership" here is rather naive as is anyone giving money to this website if Post-Mormons do not have a vote here to choose their leadership. Dictators have always made such arguments why they needed power and why it was "necessary" that people couldn't vote. I believe the Board here has waaay too much power and needs to democratize itself; I would make the same agrument for Mormon Stories if they are set up in the same way.
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“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 20 September 2012 09:01 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 72 ]
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Plato
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Jeff Ricks:
Plato:
Jeff Ricks:
Plato:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Plato:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Plato, here's my bet. If 20 of my friends and I signed up for your web page and "voted" you out as prophet, you'd somehow still be prophet. Where are the organization's rules or by-laws under which your election was held. Did anyone run against you? Who was eligible to vote? How many people voted?
Trying to change the subject to avoid scrutiny is one of the oldest tricks in the playbook. (In fact, right out of the FAIR/FARMS playbook.) It's a sure sign that something stinks in your new church.
Ah but my questions are not answered yet as to why you feel this place Post-Mormons should not have the right to vote in the Board. You need to address my arguments for democracy. Whether it was 20 or 10 or 6. Really doesn't matter a democracy is a vote! And that is what we had.
In other words, all your bluster about democracy is just more bullshit.
Postmormon.org is what it is. It was set up with a structure intended to help it carry out its defined mission. It has never pretended to be otherwise.
If you or anyone else wants set up an organization that does what postmormon.org does with officers elected by whoever signs up, you're free to do so. If it accomplishes its mission better than postmormon.org does, good on you.
On Sept. 9th 2012 the elections took place from our minutes:
Members are those who voted in the meeting. I was voted in and sustained as President and Prophet of the Society. The following were voted in as the First Presidency:
James Edward Nickels Jr
1st Counselor in the First Presidency, President of the Quorum of the Twelve
Scott Bennion (yes related to Lowell L. Bennion)
2nd Counselor in the First Presidency
The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles for the Society for Humanistic Mormonism is under the authority of The First Presidency for the Society for Humanistic Mormonism which is the governing body of this religion and institution. Both the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles serve as the two leading bodies for the Society for Humanistic Mormonism.
The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles' Mission is to give advice to the First Presidency on the governing philosophy, beliefs, and rituals of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism who in turn make final decisions on what governing principles or beliefs will be incorporated into the Society.
Current members of the The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles who were voted in for the Society for Humanistic Mormonism include:
1. Bruce Spaulding, Acting President
2. Melanie Van Orden
3. Devon Atkins
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
James Edward Nickels, Jr. was also voted in as Presiding Patriarch to the Society for Humanistic Mormonism.
Those who are able to vote are those who have been baptized as Humanistic Mormons and agree to commit to the philosophy of Humanistic Mormonism.
Needless to say at this time those who have been baptized are the members of the First Presidency and the members of the Twelve as well as one local Bishop who lives in Kentucky. Which means there are 7 members in the Society officially. :)
Now numbers are not that revelant because there were only 5 members of the Board here at Postmormon.org. Also I can be voted out of my current office if the other members agree to remove me. Personally I don't really want to be the Prophet of Reason forever. Let some fresh blood in. :)
In our Society Prophets and Apostles are democratically elected at least once a year.
Now if I follow Jeff Ricks advice I wouldn't do this. I don't see this as democratic however. All members can self-nominate themselves to run for office if they choose to do so. Than once a year we vote, I think that is more democratic than what Postmormon.org has in place. But like Jeff Ricks said "you can't argue with results." But what if Jeff I am able to achieve beyond what Postmormon.org has achieved in a more democratic fashion, will you come around to my point of view, Brad-Jeff? Or keep things here undemocratic? Seems to be that I don't need to reform but you do.
That last sentence of yours is quite a baffling conclusion. We have to reform because you imagine in your head that you'll be more successful than PostMo? Are you serious?
You misunderstood what I said. I am asking you that if in the future we exceed what Postmormon.org has been able to achieve, and we do so based off a more democratic model than yours, will you come around to my point of view and reform Postmormon.org to make it more democratically run in its governance?
The basis of your argument for a less than democratic wrong Postmormon.org (and it would our Society) is if the results are good keep things the way they are. But I am making a claim or a statement of belief that a more democratic goverance would achieve results that will out preform Postmormon.org as an institution. I am saying let's try the experiment and see which goverance works best. If mine does will you reform to become more democratic here?
IF what you imagine becomes a reality then I'm willing to give it a shot but I'm only one member of the board. I'll tell you what, when you do what you imagine you will do, I'll propose it to the board.
Ok let the democratic experiment begin! :) I'll let you know if it works. :)
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“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 20 September 2012 09:01 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 73 ]
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Lyman
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You're trolling, right Plato? You have to be trolling.
Posted: 20 September 2012 09:12 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 74 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Oh, so now you're going start up a world-wide church and lead a revolution against all other former mormon websites who don't run their sites the way you think they should be run. You are going to be one busy boy.
If you had any confidence in your ability to build an effective organization, you'd do it rather than try and tell everyone else how you think they'd do it.
I've had my say. You've been deceptive with the folks here, and when called on it you keep trying to change the subject. If you can't sell your new organization on its merits, then you have a real problem.
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
Phillip K. Dick
Posted: 20 September 2012 09:14 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 75 ]
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Plato
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Joined 2009-10-10
For now I need to get some work done. Live Forever and Prosper and may you go in reason and in peace, my friends. Until we meet again.
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“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 20 September 2012 09:24 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 76 ]
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Hiker Daddy
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I am a huge fan of democracy in government. Huge fan.
Yet, I see very little value in democracy in this forum. This forum is better than government. I have no vote here other than the vote I can do with my feet and that suits me fine. This forum provides a space to discuss important topics with very few restrictions. I don't get to vote on those restrictions and I shouldn't. Postmormon is very clear on how the money is spent and who is on the board. It is also a place with a many great people. That is why I stick around. If I thought otherwise, I wouldn't be here.
Ultimately, the metaphor of the inn on the road is apt. The inn has rules just like my house our your house has rules. If someone comes into my house, they follow my rules or they hit the road. I don't ask for a vote.
Non profits aren't often democratic and they shouldn't be. I am on the board of a non profit; a mountain climbing club. If a bunch of people wanted to vote to change the mission to kayaking, the board would advise them to start their own club and it wouldn't matter if they had the majority. Democracy isn't always the best approach.
Postmormon has a mission statement and a set of guidelines. You become a "member" by doing nothing but registering a username and picking out a password. That alone shouldn't give a person rights. One gains a voice here by contributing and listening. Voting has nothing to do with it.
By the way, I am pretty sure postmormon board does listen to people's concerns and takes those into consideration.
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“I can’t go back to yesterday because I was a different person then.” Alice in Wonderland.
Posted: 20 September 2012 09:32 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 77 ]
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Plato
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
Oh, so now you're going start up a world-wide church and lead a revolution against all other former mormon websites who don't run their sites the way you think they should be run. You are going to be one busy boy.
If you had any confidence in your ability to build an effective organization, you'd do it rather than try and tell everyone else how you think they'd do it.
I've had my say. You've been deceptive with the folks here, and when called on it you keep trying to change the subject. If you can't sell your new organization on its merits, then you have a real problem.
Brad, I have perfect faith that the human beings who read what I wrote and what you wrote in our so-called dialogue/debate can decide who's arguments were more rational and true and whether they want a democratic form of governance or not or "trust in the leadership."
My words stand and I believe you have made very weak points repeatedly.
I don't pretend that someone like you would be open to my message of a Mormon cultural religion based off of rationality, humanism, science, democracy, and compassion for those who have been traditionally left behind by the LDS Church, etc.
Humanistic Mormonism and the Society for Humanistic Mormonism will grow and I believe its growth will be inevitable because Postmormon.org and other sites like Mormon Stories have failed to replace fully the LDS Church's social community and a philosophy of action and deeds. Postmormon.org offers no life cycles ceremonies, no meeting houses, no structure, no democratic governance, no ethics, no philosophy, no welfare for the poor and struggling Post-Mormons, no political power to try to change the world for the better in the direction of science, reason, and compassion, in other words it offers only empty words, and arguments of how "bad" Mormonism is without seeing any of the parts of Mormonism that are good; and arguments as to how democracy can't work here. That to me is irrational and it serves an agenda here. Fine, to each his own. By their works you shall know them, but do realize Post-Mormons when you donate here you have no vote. Therefore no democracy. If you enjoy only being part of a website without social events fine, we are trying for something better socially than that (or just meeting in the local coffee shop or bar to discuss how mad we are that the LDS Church, lied, etc.). Focusing on the negative on anything for too long is psychologically unhealthy and doesn't change anything.
Our goals are lofty and time will be the judge as to whether this religion succeeds or not, what concerns me is what I do, not what you do, or what others do. Am I authentic to what I believe is the basis of my judgment of myself (not what you claim you think you know about me or my intentions), that is what matters to me. Brad your false judgments of me or this Society really don't amount to anything but your own prejudice and lack of understanding on your part or ability to see things differently outside of your own narrow point of view. You reflect that.
I follow my own conscience and I believe this is my calling to change the world of Mormonism for the better by creating this Humanistic branch of Mormonism (success to me is not measured in numbers or money its measured in the philosophy I help to create that helps make a better world based off of reason and science for my fellow human beings).
What does Postmormon.org do besides put up a few bill boards? Does it advance what is positive about Mormonism or only focus on what was negative? A support group is fine, but other people want more than what is offered here.
However I believe that this is the right course for me personally and for humanity and Post-Mormons in particular if that's what they choose. There is nothing that you do here that we cannot do there. I'd be willing to bet on we can do it better and provide things that Post-Mormons need more of than you can provide here. I believe in keeping the good that Mormonism has to offer and removing the bad.
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“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 21 September 2012 03:55 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 78 ]
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Bad Company
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You are nothing new Plato, just another in the long line of people who want to make a living out of religion and get paid to be an authority figure without meriting any authority. You keep mentioning all these "people" who want what you are offering, but I don't see anybody who actually wants what you are offering. Nobody wants to pay you money in order to have a few made up Trekkie life rituals and get a newsletter or whatever else you plan on doing. You seem to definitely encompass the 'human' spirit of capitalism, self-centeredness, delusion, and arrogance though, I will give you that one. Maybe stop attacking PostMormon.org for what it is DOING and stop comparing it with your utopian delusions of what you INTEND to do. It is insulting in my opinion to infer that all of us PostMo's need a replacement social society as if none of us know how to make friends and acquaintances in the real world. There are 7 billion people out there in the real world, and the last thing 'humanity' needs is more labels and division, which is all you represent.
Posted: 21 September 2012 12:39 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 79 ]
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Plato
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Joined 2009-10-10
Postmormon.org has revoked the chapter that I founded because I happen to be a Humanistic Mormon and run the Society for Humanistic Mormonism, which includes Post-Mormons in our core identity. I find this extreme and heavy handed. There is a lack of human freedom here to think differently about Mormonism. It shows up with the constant negativity with people who choose a middle way like John Dehlin or those like myself who try to do something positive with Mormonism. Post-Mormon Fundamentalism is just as dangerous as a TBM Fundamentalist and just as bad for freedom of religion here. SB: Star Trek is a great humanistic show and has fun rituals which I think are more interesting than a lot of the religion rituals that exist today. ;)
Live long and prosper.
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“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 21 September 2012 01:32 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 80 ]
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Mindfulchick
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The thought of following the Society for Humanistic Mormonism is as frightening to me as returning to the LDS Church. As I read through your description of your organization and it's intentions I shuddered. I am seriously wondering if your members will also be wearing white shirts and ties as they door knock?? I bet they will have perfect angelic smiles too.
There are some vulnerable people here at post mormon, to try to sway them to your organization, which is NOT a non-profit presently and seemingly to be for your personal gain is just wrong. I truly hope anyone on here that is considering following your organization does their homework before making that choice.
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“You know, my grandma has this saying. Trust those who seek the truth, but doubt those who say that they found it. My grandma wasn’t ever wrong.”
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The Society for Humanistic Mormonism
Posted: 21 September 2012 01:37 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 81 ]
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Jeff Ricks
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Plato:
Postmormon.org has revoked the chapter that I founded because I happen to be a Humanistic Mormon and run the Society for Humanistic Mormonism, which includes Post-Mormons in our core identity. I find this extreme and heavy handed. There is a lack of human freedom here to think differently about Mormonism. It shows up with the constant negativity with people who choose a middle way like John Dehlin or those like myself who try to do something positive with Mormonism. Post-Mormon Fundamentalism is just as dangerous as a TBM Fundamentalist and just as bad for freedom of religion here. SB: Star Trek is a great humanistic show and has fun rituals which I think are more interesting than a lot of the religion rituals that exist today. ;)
Live long and prosper.
If anyone wants to know the REAL reason Plato's (also briefly known as The Prophet of Reason) status was revoked you only need read through this thread, and this thread to understand why. If you're short on time and can't read the entire threads, start from the end and work backwards, and ask yourself, "Would I want someone like this representing my organization?" The facts speak clearly enough for themselves that I'm not going to waste my time explaining.
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When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine
Posted: 21 September 2012 02:03 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 82 ]
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Tessa
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The key to Post-Mo's success....it's not a "religion."
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 21 September 2012 02:04 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 83 ]
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Elder OldDog
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Plato:
Postmormon.org has revoked the chapter that I founded because I happen to be a Humanistic Mormon and run the Society for Humanistic Mormonism, which includes Post-Mormons in our core identity. I find this extreme and heavy handed. There is a lack of human freedom here to think differently about Mormonism. It shows up with the constant negativity with people who choose a middle way like John Dehlin or those like myself who try to do something positive with Mormonism. Post-Mormon Fundamentalism is just as dangerous as a TBM Fundamentalist and just as bad for freedom of religion here. SB: Star Trek is a great humanistic show and has fun rituals which I think are more interesting than a lot of the religion rituals that exist today. ;)
Live long and prosper.
If the highlighted text is correct, then I want my money back! (I keep meaning to donate, and had I, this demand would carry more weight.)
Now, reasonable minds may differ, and often do, but for the life of me, I can't give you the slightest bit of credence! And I'm overly prone to agreeing with people in hopes they'll like me and let me play with their toys! But in this instance, I think your "charter" was revoked because you're for things that are bad for recovering Mormons and against things that are good for recovering Mormons.
I get that there are some post-Mormons who will fit very comfortably within your organization. But from my perspective, your view that of all the possible roads to follow post-TBMism, yours is a good choice, is wrong. Sure, there are some who will benefit from belonging to the formal organization you are setting up, but to me it is so clear that the number is small, being only a small percentage of those who realize JS was at best, deluded, and at worst, a shyster.
The life-paths that exist for former TBMs are numerous, and ever so many of them are represented here. There is a sharp, often voluable divide between the atheists and the deists, and we occasionally let political debates get heated, but we always snap back (or get jerked back) to the default position: we left Mormonism and found, or want to find, a different way to live. And this most often is harmonious with one of Post-Mormon's basic tenets: "We do not advocate another form of Mormonism or any other religion and believe that loving one's neighbor begins with giving up the claim to have special access to truth."
From my perspective, Plato, you're nuts. But I lovingly place the deists in that same category, so don't let it get you down. And even some of the atheists here are nuts! Gees, now that I consider the matter, everyone here is nuts, except me, of course. And so for that reason, I feel it imperative that all of you join my Society for Mormonistic Golf & Poker. There are no dues, but our meetings are quite formal and it's quarter skins and quarter antes, but at least in poker it's dealer's choice. With regard to the golf, USGA rules will prevail.
The Society for Mormonistic Golf & Poker invites all of you to participate to the extent you feel comfortable, always keeping in mind that you'll need to bring money to all the meetings; the SMGP is a cash & carry organization.
And please remember, don't drink and drive; don't even putt.
Posted: 21 September 2012 02:38 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 84 ]
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howdimissthat
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Plato:
Postmormon.org has revoked the chapter that I founded because I happen to be a Humanistic Mormon and run the Society for Humanistic Mormonism, which includes Post-Mormons in our core identity. I find this extreme and heavy handed. There is a lack of human freedom here to think differently about Mormonism. It shows up with the constant negativity with people who choose a middle way like John Dehlin or those like myself who try to do something positive with Mormonism. Post-Mormon Fundamentalism is just as dangerous as a TBM Fundamentalist and just as bad for freedom of religion here. SB: Star Trek is a great humanistic show and has fun rituals which I think are more interesting than a lot of the religion rituals that exist today. ;)
Live long and prosper.
I was sruprised to see you were interested in remaining as a chapter head Plato, since you considered your new status a president of your own organization as above the Post-mo identy. Using Post-mo as the core you revolve on as you teach your dogma needed to stop. I thought you should remove yourself for conflict of interest anyway. So thanks Jeff for removing Plato, I personally don't want anyone to think the post-mo site I belong to entertains this "religion" of Plato's heart, or any other dogma. Yeah, I know Plato's gone, just had to get this off my mind.
Posted: 21 September 2012 02:53 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 85 ]
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Plato
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Elder OldDog:
Plato:
Postmormon.org has revoked the chapter that I founded because I happen to be a Humanistic Mormon and run the Society for Humanistic Mormonism, which includes Post-Mormons in our core identity. I find this extreme and heavy handed. There is a lack of human freedom here to think differently about Mormonism. It shows up with the constant negativity with people who choose a middle way like John Dehlin or those like myself who try to do something positive with Mormonism. Post-Mormon Fundamentalism is just as dangerous as a TBM Fundamentalist and just as bad for freedom of religion here. SB: Star Trek is a great humanistic show and has fun rituals which I think are more interesting than a lot of the religion rituals that exist today. ;)
Live long and prosper.
If the highlighted text is correct, then I want my money back! (I keep meaning to donate, and had I, this demand would carry more weight.)
Now, reasonable minds may differ, and often do, but for the life of me, I can't give you the slightest bit of credence! And I'm overly prone to agreeing with people in hopes they'll like me and let me play with their toys! But in this instance, I think your "charter" was revoked because you're for things that are bad for recovering Mormons and against things that are good for recovering Mormons.
I get that there are some post-Mormons who will fit very comfortably within your organization. But from my perspective, your view that of all the possible roads to follow post-TBMism, yours is a good choice, is wrong. Sure, there are some who will benefit from belonging to the formal organization you are setting up, but to me it is so clear that the number is small, being only a small percentage of those who realize JS was at best, deluded, and at worst, a shyster.
The life-paths that exist for former TBMs are numerous, and ever so many of them are represented here. There is a sharp, often voluable divide between the atheists and the deists, and we occasionally let political debates get heated, but we always snap back (or get jerked back) to the default position: we left Mormonism and found, or want to find, a different way to live. And this most often is harmonious with one of Post-Mormon's basic tenets: "We do not advocate another form of Mormonism or any other religion and believe that loving one's neighbor begins with giving up the claim to have special access to truth."
From my perspective, Plato, you're nuts. But I lovingly place the deists in that same category, so don't let it get you down. And even some of the atheists here are nuts! Gees, now that I consider the matter, everyone here is nuts, except me, of course. And so for that reason, I feel it imperative that all of you join my Society for Mormonistic Golf & Poker. There are no dues, but our meetings are quite formal and it's quarter skins and quarter antes, but at least in poker it's dealer's choice. With regard to the golf, USGA rules will prevail.
The Society for Mormonistic Golf & Poker invites all of you to participate to the extent you feel comfortable, always keeping in mind that you'll need to bring money to all the meetings; the SMGP is a cash & carry organization.
And please remember, don't drink and drive; don't even putt.
Actually I do believe deism is a rational way to organize religion, I myself can and do hold pandeist beliefs as a possibility for what God can be. I think it is irrational to have only negative things to say about Mormonism. This to me is the Fox News of Mormonism: only present the side of Mormonism that you consider bad and leave out an honest discussion of what good traits Mormonism and in general religion can have. But yes we need to look at both the good and the bad not just focus on one area. This is what the Society tries to do. We are affirmative not about tearing down or seeking conformity of thought. I also feel that this place is not run democratically. I all ready addressed Jeff's points.
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“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 21 September 2012 02:59 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 86 ]
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Plato
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Jeff Ricks:
Plato:
Postmormon.org has revoked the chapter that I founded because I happen to be a Humanistic Mormon and run the Society for Humanistic Mormonism, which includes Post-Mormons in our core identity. I find this extreme and heavy handed. There is a lack of human freedom here to think differently about Mormonism. It shows up with the constant negativity with people who choose a middle way like John Dehlin or those like myself who try to do something positive with Mormonism. Post-Mormon Fundamentalism is just as dangerous as a TBM Fundamentalist and just as bad for freedom of religion here. SB: Star Trek is a great humanistic show and has fun rituals which I think are more interesting than a lot of the religion rituals that exist today. ;)
Live long and prosper.
If anyone wants to know the REAL reason Plato's (also briefly known as The Prophet of Reason) status was revoked you only need read through this thread, and this thread to understand why. If you're short on time and can't read the entire threads, start from the end and work backwards, and ask yourself, "Would I want someone like this representing my organization?" The facts speak clearly enough for themselves that I'm not going to waste my time explaining.
Actually yes. Because if they read what I wrote I think we will find some people who agree with me as evidenced by the thread above and this thread.
So yes please read the thread carefully because I want people to know the truth. Jeff Ricks has shown himself to be rude and authoritarian. I personally wouldn't want you Jeff as my leader. You still have not given good arguments as to why Post-Mormons cannot vote or hold office here. Very undemocratic and authoritarian of you. It is only you and your gang of five in the Board of Directors who decides where the money goes that is donated here. I again say that's undemocratic and authoritarian. I hope Postmormon.org will reform itself. But Jeff and his crude gang of five will likely continue on their killing off of any other views here.
As to my title "A Prophet of Reason" I wear it proudly and with dignity. :)
As to why I created it, I created 1). Because it is not uncommon for one to use a pseduonym name: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudonym for example Galileo Galilei http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei used one and many other famous and well respected people throughout history have used one. Also because 2). I wanted to avoid the revokation of a Postmormon chapter that I created because I believe in supporting those that leave traditional Mormonism behind (which does not conflict with my role as President of the Society in anyway) although Jeff Ricks and his gang of 5 seem to think so. Also because I was afraid that my freedom of speech here would be slowly elimated and I would be removed as a chapter leader, which is now what is happening to me from the powers that be. 3). I was not aware that one couldn't have two names here. 4). With the recent events that have happened to me recenlty you can see why I was fearful of exposing my identity to you with those that run this place with heavy Post-Mormon Fundamentalist iron hand.
Needless to say we have seen that once I created my pseudonym Prophet of Reason I get threatening emails simply because I believe in another form of Mormonism and than Jeff without even talking to me just decides to remove me as chapter leader. How was this democratically handled? Nobody talked to me or asked me if I wanted to continue on as chapter leader, it was just decided from the top that I should be removed. Nobody told me why I can't be the President of this Society and be a Humanistic Mormon and also be a chapter leader as I feel the Society's goals are compatible with the goals of Postmormon.org. Than when I want to know why the money used here is just going to more bill boards and not so say helping Post-Mormons if they are struggling with money to help them by giving them money or other welfare services. In our Society our Bishop gave $100 to help another humanistic Mormon. Why is it Jeff all your money goes to advancing this website and getting more and more Mormons coming here? Why are you not helping in other ways? From my point of view the money just goes back into Postmormon.org and bill boards. But what about welfare services for people? Why not have a discussion about this?
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“While this age does owe a vast debt to the traditional religions, it is none the less obvious that any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation…” -Humanist Manifesto I
“A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” -Carl Sagan
I currently serve as the elected President of the Society for Humanistic Mormonism
http://societyforhumanistic.wix.com/sfhm
http://www.facebook.com/groups/societyforhumanisticmormonism/members/
Posted: 21 September 2012 03:26 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 87 ]
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Elder OldDog
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Plato:
Jeff Ricks:
Plato:
Postmormon.org has revoked the chapter that I founded because I happen to be a Humanistic Mormon and run the Society for Humanistic Mormonism, which includes Post-Mormons in our core identity. I find this extreme and heavy handed. There is a lack of human freedom here to think differently about Mormonism. It shows up with the constant negativity with people who choose a middle way like John Dehlin or those like myself who try to do something positive with Mormonism. Post-Mormon Fundamentalism is just as dangerous as a TBM Fundamentalist and just as bad for freedom of religion here. SB: Star Trek is a great humanistic show and has fun rituals which I think are more interesting than a lot of the religion rituals that exist today. ;)
Live long and prosper.
If anyone wants to know the REAL reason Plato's (also briefly known as The Prophet of Reason) status was revoked you only need read through this thread, and this thread to understand why. If you're short on time and can't read the entire threads, start from the end and work backwards, and ask yourself, "Would I want someone like this representing my organization?" The facts speak clearly enough for themselves that I'm not going to waste my time explaining.
Actually yes. Because if they read what I wrote I think we will find some people who agree with me as evidenced by the thread above and this thread.
So yes please read the thread carefully because I want people to know the truth. Jeff Ricks has shown himself to be rude and authoritarian. I personally wouldn't want you Jeff as my leader. You still have not given good arguments as to why Post-Mormons cannot vote or hold office here. Very undemocratic and authoritarian of you. It is only you and your gang of five in the Board of Directors who decides where the money goes that is donated here. I again say that's undemocratic and authoritarian. I hope Postmormon.org will reform itself. But Jeff and his crude gang of five will likely continue on their killing off any other views here.
From my perspective, PostMormon.org is as structureless as possible. I sense that we are not going to have a meeting of the minds on this issue, because I cannot grasp what it is you want PostMormon.org to do, other than to become servile to your aims and desires. You want it to formally structure itself into an organization that is pleasing unto your sight. You want a 'reformation' along the lines that suit you.
Your final statement is so loaded with the negativism fostered by a desire to have things your way; it's autocratism at its best! The only 'other views' that I see being restricted are those with conflict with the stated purpose of this site, to help people who have determined that Mormonism doesn't suit them move beyond it. There are many, many opinions offered about how to do so, and where to move to, but the site, and those who 'run' it, crudely or otherwise, do not point in any specific direction.
Yes, create a haven for those TBMs who want what's good about Mormonism, promulgate it all you want and work to make it a success, but don't pop up in the middle of PostMormon.org and announce to us that your way is better, and then get all pissy when you don't meet with 100% approval. But then that's probably the anarchist in me speaking.
Which brings me to what I contend is a fascinating subject: Humanistic? I get the sense that you use Humanistic to mean something good, noble, desirable. If so, you're screwed up from the git-go. Humans are the worst things to happen to each other, ever. I sincerely believe this will never change. But I get that you want to help guide your fellow humans into change for the good. But being guided into changing is what makes humans bad for each other. Not that there's much in the way of good that humans can do for one another when they try...
This is certainly running far afield from the reason I visit this site; feeding my inner cynic is never a good move.
Posted: 21 September 2012 03:26 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 88 ]
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Jeff Ricks
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Plato, you're a real piece of work. If you were rational enough I'd ask you to go back and read through your posts and consider that maybe you just might be your worst enemy.
You've been given plenty of slack here even though you've broken the house rules a number of times, but this has gone on long enough. I've disabled your account temporarily until the moderators have had time to review my decision.
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When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine
Posted: 21 September 2012 04:38 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 89 ]
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Dogzilla Joy
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Oh, thank you, Jeff. I was about to start reporting posts. Color me relieved.
Not only do I continue to fail to see the point of Plato's "organization" (which looks to me like a dude who recruited to friends to help him further his own personal agenda), but I'm failing to understand how this and the other thread promoting said "organization" furthers the mission of this site. Not seeing the connection.
So good luck with all that, y'all.
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Formerly known as “Dogzilla.”
Posted: 21 September 2012 06:04 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 90 ]
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RobinM
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I too, thank you Jeff (and the trustees and the moderators). Not only for the way you've been dealing with Plato, but also for the way you handle PostMormon.org.
Personally, I am not looking for a replacement religion for mormonism, no matter what someone wants to call it. I did not come here looking for an organization with some rigid heirarchy that requires jumping through hoops for membership and a long list of rules I have to follow and goals I have to meet to continue to be a member in good standing. I come here because it's a group of people in which I can find others who've gone through some of the same experiences I have and with whom I can have discussions and sometimes even learn new and helpful things.
This is a forum, not a religious group or a government organizaion. Why someone would think it is either of those, or try to insist it should be, I don't understand. I don't think I've ever seen a forum that was a democracy, with people voting in leadership or topics of discussion. People come to forums because of a shared interest, a chance for discussion, and maybe making more personal connections.
In my opinion, PostMo allows for people to freely discuss their experiences with mormonism -- both the positive and the negative. We can ask for and give support and advice to others. We can rant and vent when we need to and others understand what we mean without us having to explain all the ins and outs of mormonism. It is accepting of everyone -- except those who deliberately violate the mission statement and/or troll. Which is the same as any forum, anywhere.
I'm more than happy to be "member" of PostMo, spending my time here when I need to without having to worry about how it's being run.
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“Curiosity killed the cat, but where human beings are concerned, the only thing a healthy curiosity can kill is ignorance”
~Harry Lorayne
“The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity.”
~Albert Einstein
Posted: 21 September 2012 06:09 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 91 ]
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Jeff Ricks
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Thanks for your support, Dogzilla, Robin, and others.
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When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine
Posted: 21 September 2012 09:50 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 92 ]
shirma
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Hi Jeff, just WOW!! You are extremely patient and tolerant. I would have from the first post!!
Any way just like the others I wanna say thanks for having a place that helps you find your way back to sanity with out having to follow someones morals and values in particular. I really do not post much but I have learned so much from all of you, Good things and also bad things, but it is up to me to keep what I want and most important of all...... YOU HAVE NEVER CHARGED ME A DIME!!!!!!THANK YOU!!
Posted: 24 September 2012 12:40 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 93 ]
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Dogzilla Joy
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shirma:
Hi Jeff, just WOW!! You are extremely patient and tolerant. I would have from the first post!!
Any way just like the others I wanna say thanks for having a place that helps you find your way back to sanity with out having to follow someones morals and values in particular. I really do not post much but I have learned so much from all of you, Good things and also bad things, but it is up to me to keep what I want and most important of all...... YOU HAVE NEVER CHARGED ME A DIME!!!!!!THANK YOU!!
This thread is a great example of why "You guys only promote ONE point of view and don't let others be heard" is utter and complete bullshit. If this was my site, I, too, would have shut that shit down about four posts in. So it's a good thing I'm not in charge. I'd be accused of censorship constantly.
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