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The total failure of Liberal Mormonism  
Posted: 04 October 2010 06:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Keep Sweet
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My break with the LDS was swift and mutual, and I admit the experience colors my thinking.  From BIC-on-mission to non-believing zero in about 6 weeks is how it worked for me: cold turkey, from Provo kid to Cambridge Massachusetts, from the medieval to the modern.  My family is hardcore TBM, but in a weird way that made it easier for me:  All or Nothing was the choice I was given, I choose All, meaning all of life experience and science and authenticity, and Nothing of Mormonism except a sense of shame and responsibility for being so passive and hypocritical as a teenager. They chose All of the "gospel" and Nothing of me.
 
Since becoming a free and thinking man, I've had more trouble relating to "liberal mormons," the educated and maybe lurking on PostMo, who know better than to believe every detail but stay in it for "the kids" "DW" "DH" or whatever.  I understand traditional True Believin Mormons like my parents who completely submit to Church authority: I couldn't do it, but I get it, like I get Hasidic Jews or Scientology or other dedicated religions. Take it or leave it they say, you have Free Agency.  Yes I do, I leave it, but I will continue to testify until gay Mormon kids aren't killing themselves and running away homeless.
 
What I don't get is the "Liberal" Mormon, New Order Mormon, closet apostate, etc.  Why are you still tithing and signed-up with a church that isn't what it claims to be?  The LDS Church will never fundamentally change, it's not supposed to change that's the whole point, absolute certitude based on elaborate fiction. You will always be expected to proclaim belief in Joseph Smith and the BoM and D&C, women will always be inferior, the tithing and "calling" free labor will continue. 
 
So what the heck are you doing being Mormons? If you're spiritual or Christian, there's a million churches in America you could join.  Instead I see a lot of whining and bitching about the church and how stupid TBMs are. TBMs maybe stupid, but at least they're not hypocrites.
 
When I hear Boyd K Packer I know where I stand, firmly against.  I testify Apostle Packer is a self-hating homophobe, a textbook closeted bully. I testify that the LDS who accept Boyd Packer as an apostle representing God share responsibility for all the suicides of LDS gay kids, the broken families, the homeless gay teens, the humiliated wives of secretly gay RMs, etc.  "Liberal Mormons" like Feminist Housewife, New Order Mormon, etc., censor me from their sites for criticizing Boyd, and especially when I say they are complicit in the bullying that Packer embodies, it is nauseating cowardice and hypocrisy
 
O Liberal Mormons, I don't trust you. I can never be sure about you, and in a way that's worse than my feeling towards Boyd Packer.
 
End Rant.


   


Posted: 04 October 2010 07:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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seeking peace
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Keep Sweet--oh how I would love to meet you personally (I am old enough to be your Mom though ) Your courage and articulation are very admired.  I have been so thrown off today by BKP's comments that I have gotten very little accomplished except to post this quote on my FaceBook page.

In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
Martin Luther King Jr.

This particular post was what I needed to quit being so kind and to have the courage to stand up and speak out. I have, however, taken your stand that as quickly as I found out the fraud of the church, I risked everything and ended my membership and association. It is simply not possible to be lukewarm when one's integrity is at stake.

Thank you, I will now get on with my day, a little wiser for your words.
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It takes courage to grow up and turn out to be who you really are.—e.e.cummings


   


Posted: 04 October 2010 08:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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FindingPeace
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You lack perspective.  You can walk away without damaging the most important relationship that you have.  My DH still attends and will probably always believe in the church.   I attended for 2 years as an unbeliever.  I was a New Order Mormon convinced I could walk the middle path and be just fine. 

But, I couldn't and I didn't.  That is my journey and not others.  The one aspect of Post Mormon that I love is that each one of us has a unique story.  Some stay because they love their spouse more than they loathe the church.  I understand that because I love my spouse more than the church, but I had to love myself as much.  Counseling helped and so did some close friends.  But, that still took 2 long years. 


This is a support forum.  We can whine, bitch, complain and rant about the mormon church. 

 You have not walked in some of our shoes, so tread lightly and remember you were fortunate to get out while you were young.  Some of us did not have the information that you have and were stuck in a mindf*ck for a very long time. 

If anything, I have more compassion on those who are trying not to ruin every relationship...including family....while getting out.

I find the tone of your post disturbing and lacking any compassion. 



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Myths which are believed in tend to become true. George Orwell
The beginning of wisdom is found in doubting; by doubting we come to the question, and by seeking we may come upon the truth.  Pierre Abelard
“The truth is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution.”  Dumbledore


   


Posted: 04 October 2010 08:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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[deleted]
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“Be born anywhere, little embyro novelist, but do not be born under the shadow of a great creed, not under the burden of original sin, not under the doom of salvation. Go out and be born among the gypsies or thieves or among happy workaday people who live in the sun and do not think about their souls.”  ~Pearl S. Buck


   


Posted: 04 October 2010 08:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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It's like "normal Muslims" sitting by and not ranting against the Taliban and Al Quaeda. If they don't rise up, then they're allowing it.
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Posted: 04 October 2010 08:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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thewriterwithin
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P.S. keep sweet -- Is there a bumper sticker of your logo? I'd like one.
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Posted: 04 October 2010 08:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Smokey
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FindingPeace:
SNIP
I find the tone of your post disturbing and lacking any compassion.  
 
 
 
 
I suspect that this post was in part inspired by the events in this post, right KeepSweet?
http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewtopic.php?t=17620  \]
 
Personally, I tend to cut NOMs and the StayLDS crowd a LOT of damn slack.  When one is facing down the barrel of being divorced and consequently separated from his/her children for their lack of belief, the game changes significantly. 
 
I would certianly be hesitant to pass judgement on anyone facing a situation I have not found myself in.  That kind of judgement is exactly what I am trying to escape.
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“If a faith will not bear to be investigated: if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak.” (George Albert Smith, Journal Of Discourses, v 14, page 216)


   


Posted: 04 October 2010 08:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Lea Christensen-Martin
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While I can see where you are coming from, Keep Sweet, I have to agree with Finding Peace. Everyone here and on other forums has a different background and different life experience.  
 
Some NOMs like FindingPeace try to stay in the church because they love a TBM spouse.  Some want to keep close ties with extended families.  They know that if their disbelief were known, then those close ties would never be the same again.  So support forums for those trying to live the middle way are helpful.  
 
Some people who have discovered some of the historical inaccuracies or other issues with the church stay because they have a need to believe in a God and have faith in a religion.  They may stay with the church because they feel there isn't any other church out there that is "better" than TCOJCOLDS.  These people will often list deficincies in other religions to show that all man made organizations are somewhat faulty, so why not stay in the religion that they grew up in and all their family is a member of? 
 
Other people feel that the Mormon culture is a good, moral place to occupy and raise children in.  These people usually emphasize what they see as good in Mormonism, like the fact that they preach against drug use, alcohol use, and premarital sex.  A lot of these people feel the need for a moral authority to refer to.  
 
Some people want to try and reform the church from the inside.  They stay and hope that their liberal influence will gradually infuse the culture and doctrine of the church and transform it into a more accepting place for everyone.  
 
There are probably as many reasons to stay in the church as there are people who leave it.  
 
I agree with you, Keep Sweet, its not a road I choose to travel.  But, we all are not suited to travel the same road.  
 
 
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My soul was removed to make room for all this sarcasm.


   


Posted: 04 October 2010 08:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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seeking peace
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FindingPeace:
You lack perspective.  You can walk away without damaging the most important relationship that you have.  My DH still attends and will probably always believe in the church.   I attended for 2 years as an unbeliever.  I was a New Order Mormon convinced I could walk the middle path and be just fine.  
 
But, I couldn't and I didn't.  That is my journey and not others.  The one aspect of Post Mormon that I love is that each one of us has a unique story.  Some stay because they love their spouse more than they loathe the church.  I understand that because I love my spouse more than the church, but I had to love myself as much.  Counseling helped and so did some close friends.  But, that still took 2 long years.  
 
 
This is a support forum.  We can whine, bitch, complain and rant about the mormon church.  
 
 You have not walked in some of our shoes, so tread lightly and remember you were fortunate to get out while you were young.  Some of us did not have the information that you have and were stuck in a mindf*ck for a very long time.  
 
If anything, I have more compassion on those who are trying not to ruin every relationship...including family....while getting out.
 
I find the tone of your post disturbing and lacking any compassion.  
 
 
 

 Us "Peacekeepers" really should get together for lunch. I think that there is so much give and take in our relationships and we walk such a fine line most of the time. A post like this makes me feel just a little braver when it comes to speaking out. I always tend to hold back for fear of offending a loved one. Sometimes, the "impetuousness" of youth who are not as worried about offending is refreshing.
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I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man—Thomas Jefferson
It takes courage to grow up and turn out to be who you really are.—e.e.cummings


   


Posted: 04 October 2010 08:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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FindingPeace
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Smokey:
FindingPeace:
SNIP
I find the tone of your post disturbing and lacking any compassion.  
 
 
 
 
I suspect that this post was in part inspired by the events in this post, right KeepSweet?
http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewtopic.php?t=17620  \]
 
Personally, I tend to cut NOMs and the StayLDS crowd a LOT of damn slack.  When one is facing down the barrel of being divorced and consequently separated from his/her children for their lack of belief, the game changes significantly. 
 
I would certianly be hesitant to pass judgement on anyone facing a situation I have not found myself in.  That kind of judgement is exactly what I am trying to escape.
 
 
Personally, I tend to cut NOMs and the StayLDS crowd a LOT of damn slack.  When one is facing down the barrel of being divorced and consequently separated from his/her children for their lack of belief, the game changes significantly. 
 
I would certianly be hesitant to pass judgement on anyone facing a situation I have not found myself in.  That kind of judgement is exactly what I am trying to escape.
 That helped, but not much.  I love most of the people at NOM with all my heart.  That forum saved me from insanity when I was discovering the disturbing truth of mormonism.

I wasn't impressed with his comments over there either.  

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Myths which are believed in tend to become true. George Orwell
The beginning of wisdom is found in doubting; by doubting we come to the question, and by seeking we may come upon the truth.  Pierre Abelard
“The truth is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution.”  Dumbledore


   


Posted: 04 October 2010 08:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Finding Nirvana
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I'm trying to take the long view - yeah, I could get all militant and make a clean break.  The likely result would be divorce from my wife and the kind of wagon-circling by her family that would ultimately result in my alienation from my four children. 

I could do that. 

Or, I could make compromises with my wife, try to salvage what others on this thread have called (the most important relationship), and hope that my patience and my kindness and my love might eventually persuade her and my children (or some of my children, or even just one of my children) that there's more to life than Mormonism.

Here's how those two options tally up for me:

Militant disaffection:
1 freethinker + 5 TB Mormons I never see - 99.9% sure

Biding my time and carefully sharing my perspective:
1 freethinker + between 0 and 5 eventually deconverted family members - 50% sure

The odds are long my way - but they're even longer your way.  I'll stick to having patience, thanks.
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Posted: 04 October 2010 09:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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thewriterwithin
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Hard to say. One could write a book on this subject, and perhaps someday I'll get around to it!  I think there are as many answers as there are people who do it.
 
From among my close friends and family:
 
A guy who has gradually come not to believe over the course of years. He rarely goes, doesn't pay tithing, and laughs at Mormonism (behind its back). He doesn't take his name off the roles because it is a hassle, and he doesn't want his kids to be discriminated against. He gets angry about the gay issue, as he has a lesbian daugher. Before you get too smug, he also laughs at pomo and how intense (and sometimes angry) posters are here. He takes a more worldly approach to backing out the door and believes the boards are for the formerly serious believer (he never was one) who is now a serious disbeliever.
 
A guy who is deeply involved in the Mormon Church, as well an employee of that organization, who has come to disbelieve, although I'm not sure of the course of his disaffection. He is angry about tithing, but pays up. (Well, that's where his salary comes from, no?) He also attends, although he often tries to slip out of some of it. He seems to have a lot of anger at Mormonism he doesn't want to explore. It is something of an unknown why he doesn't just leave, but there are endless possibilities, including he is too heavily invested, he doesn't feel comfortable outside the Mormon world, and perhaps it is simply too late for him. He seems to dread conflict, and I can't imagine leaving without it. Also, as a powerful Mormon male, I think he really struggles with more normal relationships where he can't count on women looking up to him because he is a guy, or guys looking up to him because he is high in a hierarchy. He can't seem to do the neither-one-up-nor-one-down-we-are-equals that I think the larger world has come to take for granted in human relationships. He is at a loss when he is not revered.
 
A woman who is truly a victim of Mormonism. She was abused as a child and had a Mormon, closet alcoholic father. Her first response was to think if she chased that Mormon dream, her pain would go away, if she were just pure enough, if she were Mormon enough, if she were married in the temple -- well, everyone here knows this one. Again, I don't know how it happened, but she gave up on the dream. She is somewhat (deservedly) bitter. She enjoys talking about her new perspective on Mormonism at times. But she hasn't bothered to take her name off the roles or speak out. She lets it be assumed she is "inactive." Perhaps she just isn't there yet.
 
So I think there are a lot of reasons for middle ground. I could detail more people, but I need to study, work, get something done!!!! 
 
 
 
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Posted: 04 October 2010 10:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Keep Sweet:
 know better than to believe every detail but stay in it for "the kids" "DW" "DH" or whatever. 
 
All I could think when reading your post is how wonderful it is that more of you are figuring it out before you're married!   Because once you are, "the kids, DW, DH or whatever"  takes on a new reality that can't be shrugged off like a girlfriend you don't like anymore.  It's a kick in the gut to your concept of black and white (and mine!  maybe comes from Mormonism!)  right and wrong.  You're faced with this choice:
 
"Be right and lose your family.  Not just on paper, but the romatic love of your life and the love and respect of your 4 kids.  Lose them to the beast, but at least you took a stand.  If they choose the beast over you, well then so BE IT, they must be stupid and you're better off.  Now you're an example that apostasy == broken families."
 
OR
 
"Be right a little at a time, and emerge with relationships in tact, the love of your wife (kids, DW, DH or whatever) and the respect of your kids.  Now send them into the world without the church having broken the cycle. "
 
 
It sucks a little either way, but I'm going to keep them if I can.
 
I can't believe how old I feel in saying this, but until you've got 4 kids you've taught to walk, to read, and you're teaching to think,  you might not have the perspective to understand what it means to say "whatever" after you list those relationships.  It's not the same (at least to me) as losing your mom and dad and brothers/sisters, by the way.
 
That said, good for you in figuring it out earlier, I wish I had.
 


   


Posted: 04 October 2010 10:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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Keep Sweet after hearing the story of your mission companion I understand why this affects you so much, however I do not think it is fair for you to blame those who have not resigned for the deaths of these kids. I think a lot of people who have not resigned yet no longer pay tithing so our money is not supporting the cause. Also I can't speak for anyone else but I have spoken out in my own way about my beliefs that differ the church's. Just because we don't go out guns blazing doesn't mean that we are silent. I know I will never get anywhere with my family if I lose my cool. People will be waiting for me to screw up and to have proof that i just wanted to sin, or was offended, etc By going slow and being level headed and not bashing people in the church or the church itself I can get more people to listen. People will automatically stop listening if you go on the attack. Ultimately my goal is to bring my family with me or at least keep the lines of communication open enough so they will be willing to entertain other ideas besides what is fed over the pulpit. Being angry and confrontational and ranting only proves the stereotype of exmo's as taught by the church which in a TBM's mind only reinforces the divinity of the leader's calling etc. I am sorry that this talk brought up so many painful memories for you. Your story really broke my heart, I just don't want to alienate the people I love who I am trying to help out of the church.
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Posted: 04 October 2010 10:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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MyWife'sHusband
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Smokey:
FindingPeace:
SNIP
I find the tone of your post disturbing and lacking any compassion.  
 
 
 
 
I suspect that this post was in part inspired by the events in this post, right KeepSweet?
http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewtopic.php?t=17620  \]
 
Personally, I tend to cut NOMs and the StayLDS crowd a LOT of damn slack.  When one is facing down the barrel of being divorced and consequently separated from his/her children for their lack of belief, the game changes significantly. 
 
I would certianly be hesitant to pass judgement on anyone facing a situation I have not found myself in.  That kind of judgement is exactly what I am trying to escape.
 
 

 This ^
 
I left because of the lack of compassion and spiritual fulfillment from the church. I would hate to see that same type of black/white judgement and lack of understanding show up here.
 
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Posted: 04 October 2010 10:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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It's time, time to make a stand and say...mormon, non-mormon, semi-mormon or what not....that people like BKP cannot dictate this type of tripe into media any longer. It's time.
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Posted: 04 October 2010 10:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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Grape Nephi
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mormons are trained to not rock the boat. Rock it and get ex'd. What if enough people rocked the boat? The only way to change the church is to stop doing what the "Brethren" say. The top has no accountability. they can do whatever they damn well please and can be as hateful and bigoted as they wish without any recourse.
 
But Members of the Church as sheeple and they will never rock the boat.
 
Liberal or not.
 
 
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Posted: 04 October 2010 11:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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AngelicFerret
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 How long ago was your mission Keep Sweet?

 I'm afraid it isn't that easy for most people. The majority of my family is still stuck in the church. In fact, only my brother and I are out mentally, but we both attend in order to maintain relationships. (and our apostasy is tearing my mom apart)

 I still care very much for my family, and I love them more than I despise the church.
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Posted: 04 October 2010 11:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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Keep Sweet.  I am not a liberal mormon.  I have never posted on NOM or any other fencesitting sort of web page.  I should agree with you but I don't.  I am not one for drawing a line in the sand.  Every time I hear someone scream, "Are you with us or against us." I have a kneejerk desire to scream that I am against.  I feel that way regardless of the subject because I can't stand that us verses them thinking.  I usually take a few breaths and before answering.
 
I am not in favor of us verses them ideals.  NOMs are not "them" just because I am all the way out.  As far as that goes, TBMs aren't the them to me.  I was once part of them.
 
I am against the notion of alienating people that are struggling to figure stuff out.   I am lucky in the sense that I can take BKP strait on with few negative consequences.  NOMs by and large are decent people that don't deserve to be insulted. Maybe some NOMs are "chicken." What group of people doesn't include a few chickens?  I would wager there are some brave souls at NOM too.  I think they are trying to figure their way out or through Mormonism.  They are not alone.
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Posted: 05 October 2010 12:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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Free At Last!
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I think that for the most part, it is easier to leave the church when you're young, for precisely the reasons others have mentioned.  But as both Keep Sweet and I can attest, leaving when you're in your teens and early 20s can mean being alienated from your parents indefinitely.  Which is difficult in itself, but can also make being dismissive of divorce or losing relationships with loved ones a lot easier than it is for the average person.  At least, for me.
 
That said, in some ways I know where Keep Sweet is coming from - I don't understand how my sister can reconcile our gay father and BKP's hate speech, but she can and she will.  I don't understand how, but I understand why... at least to some degree.  I'll never know without walking in her shoes, but I can speculate with a fair degree of accuracy - she doesn't want to lose her family, or her nice life, or her certainty about the eternal future.  So she manages the cog dis, somehow.
 
On the other hand, I respect the experiences and sacrifices and compromises of the countless others who post here while stuck between a rock and hard place (definitely losing my family, or maybe losing my family; definitely losing my job, or maybe losing my job; etc.).  And I thank you for sharing your stories here, which have all helped me gain perspective in my own impetuous youth.
 
But I also think that, while drawing a line in the sand often leaves a bitter taste in my own mouth, Keep Sweet's overall perspective on the issue of Mormonism & (Homo)Sexuality is a vital one in the social conversation.  Whether he needs to work on his delivery is a debate I'll leave to others...
 
 
 
 
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“I will not obey.”  - Utah Phillips

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Posted: 05 October 2010 01:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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kay.too
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I am not a NOM. I am out.  I have not resigned, however. I am divorced and all my children have also left. However, my TBM ex  blames me for the children leaving. He has sued me for the last 3 years. I have spent close to $30,000 in legal fees defending myself, saving my home from him taking it, defending my car from him taking it, defending child support from him taking it.

He gets very, very, very, angry each time my kids do not sign up for girl's camp, for seminary, for any mutual activity.  He sends them e-mails in which he openly blames me for taking them out of the TSCC.

Do some of the lawsuits correlate  to the kids leaving the Morg? I don't have direct evidence of this, but it is very possible.

I am afraid of resigning because of the repercussions.  However, I cannot stand to stay in any longer and have my name on the records.

Will I pay? Most likely.

Please do not judge those who stay. I understand why they do. I cannot even begin to tell you the text messages, the e-mails and hate letters I have received each time my children have not shown up at church events. There are people in the ward who continue to spy on us and report to him.
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Why is it okay for Joseph Smith to have sex with 14 year old girls and other men’s wives but it is not okay for women to have more than one set of earrings?


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 01:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Sue the church for every penny your ex is suing you, for alienation of affection.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 03:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
Iron Chancellor
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Have I sent in the letter? No.  Have I faced a 'court of love'. No.
 
Has my bishop called me in to ask why I don't pay tithing? Yes.  Have I quit taking the sacrament? Yes.  Have I removed my garments? Yes.  Have I made it clear to my bishop that I do not believe in the church or god?  Yes.  Do a lot of members in my ward give me the silent treatment. Yes.
 
I go to sacrament meeting.  Then leave.  I do nothing to support the church (except sing in the choir--due to a love of singing and being with my family, we all sing)
 
My marraige has been on rocky ground for quite a while but we are tying to make it better.  I want to keep my five children and my grandchildren in my life.  I have done everything I can to show that I will not stay on the mormon path--except send in the letter.  I think that would be the last straw and all of that would be gone.
 
As far as the  bitching and whining are concerned I am very glad that it can happen here.  Until I found this site I had nowhere to turn and nobody to talk to.  The church refuses to allow any kind of honest discussion or frustrated bitching to happen.  Conformity of belief and wanting everybody to be on one path is something I cannot subscribe myself to.  If being completely out works for one, I am happy for that person.  If someone is a closet apostate, I accept that that is what they feel is best for them in their particular circumstances.  I am on my own path, and that works for me. 
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Posted: 05 October 2010 04:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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Mashiara
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OP:

Great food for thought.

Sounds as if it comes from a bitter place.

Possibly some knee-jerk judgmentalism happening there.

The original message is worth chewing over, discussing, and debating.

The 2nd part is just MY knee jerk reaction... ... and I could be wrong...but it might be worth it for the OP to self-reflect?




   


Posted: 05 October 2010 06:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
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hypatia
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Every one of us is trying to find our way through the fog of deep disillusionment in our own way. Respect each unique journey without judgement.
 
I promise not to pretend to know what it is like to walk in your shoes if you do not pretend to know what it is like to walk in mine.  They hurt enough as is.
 
Live and let live.
 
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“Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all.”
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Posted: 05 October 2010 10:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
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Keep Sweet
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thewriterwithin:
P.S. keep sweet -- Is there a bumper sticker of your logo? I'd like one.
 
 the logo is from PFLAG.org
 
@all-- yeah I guess I was lucky I learned the truth about LDS in my early 20s.   Leaving a  control-freak church like LDS is never easy, but life isn't easy.
 
@"staying for the kids"-- there's a 1 in 20 chance that one of your kids is gay, so you can rejoice in the torment you brought into their lives by choosing "Mormon morality."
 
@"staying for DH/DW"-- a sad marriage :(  i feel pity.  even Joseph Smith's parents attended different churches.
 
Bottom line analogy: In the former East Germany you were either a member of the Communist Party or you weren't.  "Liberal Mormons" remind me of Communists who enjoy the corrupt advantages of membership, but refuse to speak up against tyranny.  History judges those at the Stasi Museum, where the files show that members snithced on everybody else and even joined dissident organizations in order to weaken them.  Dieter Uchtodorf can tell you all about it, and isn't he spearheading the LDS internet campaign?
 
 Tommy Monson and his followers tell me not to judge, which is hilarious since the essence of Mormonism is judgement and superiority. 


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 02:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]   

   
 
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Keep Sweet: 
What I don't get is the "Liberal" Mormon, New Order Mormon, closet apostate, etc.  Why are you still tithing and signed-up with a church that isn't what it claims to be?  The LDS Church will never fundamentally change, it's not supposed to change that's the whole point, absolute certitude based on elaborate fiction. You will always be expected to proclaim belief in Joseph Smith and the BoM and D&C, women will always be inferior, the tithing and "calling" free labor will continue. 
 
So what the heck are you doing being Mormons? If you're spiritual or Christian, there's a million churches in America you could join.  Instead I see a lot of whining and bitching about the church and how stupid TBMs are. TBMs maybe stupid, but at least they're not hypocrites.
 
If only all the TBMs and fence sitting NOMs could see things the way I do.  More people need to think like this and know what a crock of shti the mormon church is.  If they knew what I know, they would stop beliving or fence sitting about the church.  I am part of the lucky few who see things as they really are.  /end sarcasm
 
Rightology and wrongology, my friend.  They are two farts with the same smell.  
 
Rock Waterman wrote an essay on his blog exploring the possibility that joseph smith wasn't really a philandering rapist.  It was interesting to see some exmo's indignant at awcknowleding the very posibility.  For some, JS needed to be an evil d-bag in order to leave the church.  Contemplating the flipside of the coin put cracks in their sanity.  
 
Sound familiar?  
 
There comes a point where it's not about other people being right or wrong, but deciding for yourself what is right.  Let other people do as they will, and decide for themselves what is right. It's about learning to contemplate the other side of things. 
 
There's a lot less stink in the air from this perspective, in my opinion.  

 
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Posted: 05 October 2010 02:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]   

   
 
nvbirdie
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hypatia:
 
Every one of us are trying to find our way through the fog of deep disillusionment in our own way. Respect each unique journey without judgement.
 
I promise not to pretend to know what it is like to walk in your shoes if you do not pretend to know what it is like to walk in mine.  They hurt enough as is.
 
Live and let live.
 
 
 ^^^^This.  I spent quite a lot of time on NOM at first and met some great people.  Now FOR ME, everything you said is true.  I can't live on the fence.  I can't live pretending one thing in public and another in private.  I can't stand to live like that and be happy in any way.  But that's me.  And other people have different standards, different reasons, my DH and children left with me, so I can't begin to understand that morass.  I find as time goes by, I am slowly less and less judgmental and at least try to see how the other side feels.


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 03:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]   

   
 
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Finding Nirvana
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Keep Sweet:
thewriterwithin:
P.S. keep sweet -- Is there a bumper sticker of your logo? I'd like one.
 
 the logo is from PFLAG.org
 
@all-- yeah I guess I was lucky I learned the truth about LDS in my early 20s.   Leaving a  control-freak church like LDS is never easy, but life isn't easy.
 
@"staying for the kids"-- there's a 1 in 20 chance that one of your kids is gay, so you can rejoice in the torment you brought into their lives by choosing "Mormon morality."
 
@"staying for DH/DW"-- a sad marriage :(  i feel pity.  even Joseph Smith's parents attended different churches.
 
Bottom line analogy: In the former East Germany you were either a member of the Communist Party or you weren't.  "Liberal Mormons" remind me of Communists who enjoy the corrupt advantages of membership, but refuse to speak up against tyranny.  History judges those at the Stasi Museum, where the files show that members snithced on everybody else and even joined dissident organizations in order to weaken them.  Dieter Uchtodorf can tell you all about it, and isn't he spearheading the LDS internet campaign?
 
 Tommy Monson and his followers tell me not to judge, which is hilarious since the essence of Mormonism is judgement and superiority. 

 You just don't get it.

Making the kind of break you're calling for, in many cases, would NOT result in getting the kids out!   Dad gets militant, mom divorces him AND gets custody (she's the mom) and the kids have NO MEDIATING INFLUENCE as they get older. 

Taking the kind of stand you're advocating means LOSING any chance whatsoever of EVER having ANY positive influence on my children. 

Taking the kind of stand you're demanding is probably the MOST selfish way I could approach this situation.

The church does not get my support - emotionally or financially - but my FAMILY does.
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Posted: 05 October 2010 03:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Keep Sweet:
thewriterwithin:
P.S. keep sweet -- Is there a bumper sticker of your logo? I'd like one.
 
 the logo is from PFLAG.org
 
@all-- yeah I guess I was lucky I learned the truth about LDS in my early 20s.   Leaving a  control-freak church like LDS is never easy, but life isn't easy.
 
@"staying for the kids"-- there's a 1 in 20 chance that one of your kids is gay, so you can rejoice in the torment you brought into their lives by choosing "Mormon morality."
 
@"staying for DH/DW"-- a sad marriage :(  i feel pity.  even Joseph Smith's parents attended different churches.
 
Bottom line analogy: In the former East Germany you were either a member of the Communist Party or you weren't.  "Liberal Mormons" remind me of Communists who enjoy the corrupt advantages of membership, but refuse to speak up against tyranny.  History judges those at the Stasi Museum, where the files show that members snithced on everybody else and even joined dissident organizations in order to weaken them.  Dieter Uchtodorf can tell you all about it, and isn't he spearheading the LDS internet campaign?
 
 Tommy Monson and his followers tell me not to judge, which is hilarious since the essence of Mormonism is judgement and superiority. 

 I hope you can gain some perspective and come to see that your harsh judgment of people is every bit as unwarranted as "Tommy Monson and his followers."  I, like you, was lucky enough to discover the truth about mormonism before I married and started a family.  Leaving was bad enough.  I can't imagine the pain and grief suffered by those torn between losing a family and mental/emotional hell. Your comparison of NOMs to the Stasi is as disgusting as Packer's talk. 
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Phillip K. Dick


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 03:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]   

   
 
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Keep Sweet
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Finding Nirvana:
Keep Sweet:
thewriterwithin:
P.S. keep sweet -- Is there a bumper sticker of your logo? I'd like one.
 
 the logo is from PFLAG.org
 
@all-- yeah I guess I was lucky I learned the truth about LDS in my early 20s.   Leaving a  control-freak church like LDS is never easy, but life isn't easy.
 
@"staying for the kids"-- there's a 1 in 20 chance that one of your kids is gay, so you can rejoice in the torment you brought into their lives by choosing "Mormon morality."
 
@"staying for DH/DW"-- a sad marriage :(  i feel pity.  even Joseph Smith's parents attended different churches.
 
Bottom line analogy: In the former East Germany you were either a member of the Communist Party or you weren't.  "Liberal Mormons" remind me of Communists who enjoy the corrupt advantages of membership, but refuse to speak up against tyranny.  History judges those at the Stasi Museum, where the files show that members snithced on everybody else and even joined dissident organizations in order to weaken them.  Dieter Uchtodorf can tell you all about it, and isn't he spearheading the LDS internet campaign?
 
 Tommy Monson and his followers tell me not to judge, which is hilarious since the essence of Mormonism is judgement and superiority. 
 
 You just don't get it.
 
Making the kind of break you're calling for, in many cases, would NOT result in getting the kids out!   Dad gets militant, mom divorces him AND gets custody (she's the mom) and the kids have NO MEDIATING INFLUENCE as they get older.  
 
Taking the kind of stand you're advocating means LOSING any chance whatsoever of EVER having ANY positive influence on my children.  
 
Taking the kind of stand you're demanding is probably the MOST selfish way I could approach this situation.
 
The church does not get my support - emotionally or financially - but my FAMILY does. 
 
 So you're trapped in a loveless marriage and you think the kids don't notice that and aren't affected by it?
 
Your're right: I don't get it, I don't have kids, I'm sorta engaged but not married (unlike the gay dudes next door who are married since 2005 and together I think 15 yrs.)


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 04:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]   

   
 
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Finding Nirvana
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Keep Sweet:
Finding Nirvana:
Keep Sweet:
thewriterwithin:
P.S. keep sweet -- Is there a bumper sticker of your logo? I'd like one.
 
 the logo is from PFLAG.org
 
@all-- yeah I guess I was lucky I learned the truth about LDS in my early 20s.   Leaving a  control-freak church like LDS is never easy, but life isn't easy.
 
@"staying for the kids"-- there's a 1 in 20 chance that one of your kids is gay, so you can rejoice in the torment you brought into their lives by choosing "Mormon morality."
 
@"staying for DH/DW"-- a sad marriage :(  i feel pity.  even Joseph Smith's parents attended different churches.
 
Bottom line analogy: In the former East Germany you were either a member of the Communist Party or you weren't.  "Liberal Mormons" remind me of Communists who enjoy the corrupt advantages of membership, but refuse to speak up against tyranny.  History judges those at the Stasi Museum, where the files show that members snithced on everybody else and even joined dissident organizations in order to weaken them.  Dieter Uchtodorf can tell you all about it, and isn't he spearheading the LDS internet campaign?
 
 Tommy Monson and his followers tell me not to judge, which is hilarious since the essence of Mormonism is judgement and superiority. 
 
 You just don't get it.
 
Making the kind of break you're calling for, in many cases, would NOT result in getting the kids out!   Dad gets militant, mom divorces him AND gets custody (she's the mom) and the kids have NO MEDIATING INFLUENCE as they get older.  
 
Taking the kind of stand you're advocating means LOSING any chance whatsoever of EVER having ANY positive influence on my children.  
 
Taking the kind of stand you're demanding is probably the MOST selfish way I could approach this situation.
 
The church does not get my support - emotionally or financially - but my FAMILY does. 
 
 So you're trapped in a loveless marriage and you think the kids don't notice that and aren't affected by it?
 
Your're right: I don't get it, I don't have kids, I'm sorta engaged but not married (unlike the gay dudes next door who are married since 2005 and together I think 15 yrs.)

No - I'm in a loving marriage with a wife who happens to be TBM. 

That's not to say everything is smooth sailing.  It's not - I don't think any marriage is easy all the time.  It tears her heart out, the idea that I'm not going to make it to the celestial kingdom with her, but she has (so far) chosen to stay married to me because she loves me.  As a consequence of the relatively good relationship we have together - all things considered - there's an outside chance that she may eventually realize I'm not the stereotype of an apostate that the church keeps shoving down her throat.  And she may, eventually, start questioning things for herself.

But to make the church the end-all-be-all issue in our marriage?  Either you leave the church or I'm leaving you?  Given her worldview, the only response she could reasonably make would be to divorce me.  And then, not only do I lose any chance I have of leading my family out of the church, I also would lose my best friend and the children we're raising together.  The MORG automatically wins in that scenario - DW and the kids likely become more entrenched in their beliefs because MY behavior fits the church's teachings about evil apostates.

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Posted: 05 October 2010 04:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]   

   
 
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Keep Sweet
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Finding Nirvana:

No - I'm in a loving marriage with a wife who happens to be TBM.  
 
That's not to say everything is smooth sailing.  It's not - I don't think any marriage is easy all the time.  It tears her heart out, the idea that I'm not going to make it to the celestial kingdom with her, but she has (so far) chosen to stay married to me because she loves me.  As a consequence of the relatively good relationship we have together - all things considered - there's an outside chance that she may eventually realize I'm not the stereotype of an apostate that the church keeps shoving down her throat.  And she may, eventually, start questioning things for herself.
 
But to make the church the end-all-be-all issue in our marriage?  Either you leave the church or I'm leaving you?  Given her worldview, the only response she could reasonably make would be to divorce me.  And then, not only do I lose any chance I have of leading my family out of the church, I also would lose my best friend and the children we're raising together.  The MORG automatically wins in that scenario - DW and the kids likely become more entrenched in their beliefs because MY behavior fits the church's teachings about evil apostates.
 
 
 Let's say you alternated one Sunday a month and took your kids to a UU or Quaker church, would your wife divorce you and take away the kids?


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 04:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]   

   
 
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goddamnit i am on vacation in a beach house in oceanside and i am posting on postmo.  what is wrong with me.  keepsweet you are an asskicker, i hate the church to.  i mean i say as much on this site.  I also was 3 kids and one wife who i am in love with deep into life before i found out the lie.  i will be damned if i will let the church win this battle.  i support any non believer who does what they need to do to keep their family and turn them into non believers.  that is what i am doing and i have made good progress. 
 
As passionate and wronged as you feel about the events and people you care about with regard to mormonism, i feel that way about my wife and kids.  you take your stand and I take mine.  they look different but should be respected the same.  if you are saying that you actually don't respect anyone who does not just drop the church after they find out it is a lie.........well, one thing i like about postmo is the tolerance......but....
 
is that what you are saying?  have you factored in the the many people on my situation?
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Posted: 05 October 2010 05:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]   

   
 
Ex_aedibus
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I've wondered about "liberal Mormons", too.  I have a cousin, currently pursuing a PhD in Latin American studies, who is still a faithful Mormon but politically makes all of us, including his devoutly Democratic dad, look like a bunch of right-wing reactionaries.  I'm not too sure how much longer he'll keep up with this, but we'll see.
 
I did find Grant Palmer's book refreshing, as I have with other books written by other so-called "liberal Mormons".  I think I can understand how some might still appreciate the culture.  For many, the family ties are a huge thing.  I wonder what I would have done had I had a family of my own at the time. 
 
For my part, once I learned the history, I wanted to escape as quickly as I could.  I also know that there are those who want to leave, but who can't. 
 
Palmer points to the RLDS/CoC and Seventh-Day Adventists as churches who have come to terms with their founding prophets and which no longer require belief in the truth of their founding prophet's vocation as a test case for membership.  I really can't see the LDS church giving up on Joseph Smith anytime soon.  From my vantage point, the LDS church is becoming less humane, not more so.
 
I appreciate those who do want to change things and make the LDS church more humane.  But I fear that their efforts may be in vain.  Coming to terms with Mormonism's past is an awfully difficult thing.  Some are able to cope with it better than others.  Some are able to make the break better than others. 


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 05:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]   

   
 
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Keep Sweet
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@Lloyd-- I hope you enjoy your vacation.  When the priesthood holder loses religious control of his family, he's not even being a true Saint.  In Mormonism the husband decides everything spiritual and the wife is expected to obey.  It's not that I don't respect you, it's that your own family doesn't even respect your priesthood authority, and for sure the LDS does not respect "liberal Mormons."
 
@ex-aedibus-- completely agree with your statement:
From my vantage point, the LDS church is becoming less humane, not more so.
 
 


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 06:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]   

   
 
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Finding Nirvana
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Keep Sweet:
Finding Nirvana:

No - I'm in a loving marriage with a wife who happens to be TBM.  
 
That's not to say everything is smooth sailing.  It's not - I don't think any marriage is easy all the time.  It tears her heart out, the idea that I'm not going to make it to the celestial kingdom with her, but she has (so far) chosen to stay married to me because she loves me.  As a consequence of the relatively good relationship we have together - all things considered - there's an outside chance that she may eventually realize I'm not the stereotype of an apostate that the church keeps shoving down her throat.  And she may, eventually, start questioning things for herself.
 
But to make the church the end-all-be-all issue in our marriage?  Either you leave the church or I'm leaving you?  Given her worldview, the only response she could reasonably make would be to divorce me.  And then, not only do I lose any chance I have of leading my family out of the church, I also would lose my best friend and the children we're raising together.  The MORG automatically wins in that scenario - DW and the kids likely become more entrenched in their beliefs because MY behavior fits the church's teachings about evil apostates.
 
 
 Let's say you alternated one Sunday a month and took your kids to a UU or Quaker church, would your wife divorce you and take away the kids?

 No - in fact we did that for a while, but I simply don't like church.  I don't like even care much for the UU ceremony of lighting the chalice.  But this kind of thinking is very encouraging - it's very different from your OP.

My apostasy has alienated nearly everyone I knew, with the exception of my wife and children.  All those other relationships were ones I was willing to let go of.  But I want to keep MY family, if I can.  And I want to liberate them, if I can.

The kind of problem solving you're trying to do here is much more productive, IMHO.  I want to live my life with integrity, but I also want to keep my family together.  I believe you can do both - but it's not so easy.  it takes some work and some creative thinking and a lot of introspection.  You have to examine each of your priorities and decide where you draw your lines.

And I'll be honest - I'm not 100% satisfied with where the lines are drawn right now.  But I have patience, and I believe that, slowly, things will come around.  And I can sleep at night.  And, finally, I believe that my choices so far are giving my children the best chance of being able to choose for themselves.

I think the Morg needs people like you - who hate them with a passion and are just ready to rip out the dragon's heart. 

But I think the Morg needs people like me, too, who hate them just as much, but are trying to find other, quieter ways of bringing them down.

And just for the record - I do hate the fncking church.
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Posted: 05 October 2010 06:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]   

   
 
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@nirvana-- you do realize that your wife is being disobedient and failing in her duty to obey the proesthood holder?  You are the man, Mormonism says you decide all religious questions and the wife is supposed to obey.  Even by LDS standards, you are failing because your wife is disobedient and disrespectful of your purported "priesthood."


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 06:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]   

   
 
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Finding Nirvana:
Keep Sweet:
Finding Nirvana:

No - I'm in a loving marriage with a wife who happens to be TBM.  
 
That's not to say everything is smooth sailing.  It's not - I don't think any marriage is easy all the time.  It tears her heart out, the idea that I'm not going to make it to the celestial kingdom with her, but she has (so far) chosen to stay married to me because she loves me.  As a consequence of the relatively good relationship we have together - all things considered - there's an outside chance that she may eventually realize I'm not the stereotype of an apostate that the church keeps shoving down her throat.  And she may, eventually, start questioning things for herself.
 
But to make the church the end-all-be-all issue in our marriage?  Either you leave the church or I'm leaving you?  Given her worldview, the only response she could reasonably make would be to divorce me.  And then, not only do I lose any chance I have of leading my family out of the church, I also would lose my best friend and the children we're raising together.  The MORG automatically wins in that scenario - DW and the kids likely become more entrenched in their beliefs because MY behavior fits the church's teachings about evil apostates.
 
 
 Let's say you alternated one Sunday a month and took your kids to a UU or Quaker church, would your wife divorce you and take away the kids?
 
 No - in fact we did that for a while, but I simply don't like church.  I don't like even care much for the UU ceremony of lighting the chalice.  But this kind of thinking is very encouraging - it's very different from your OP.
 
My apostasy has alienated nearly everyone I knew, with the exception of my wife and children.  All those other relationships were ones I was willing to let go of.  But I want to keep MY family, if I can.  And I want to liberate them, if I can.
 
The kind of problem solving you're trying to do here is much more productive, IMHO.  I want to live my life with integrity, but I also want to keep my family together.  I believe you can do both - but it's not so easy.  it takes some work and some creative thinking and a lot of introspection.  You have to examine each of your priorities and decide where you draw your lines.
 
And I'll be honest - I'm not 100% satisfied with where the lines are drawn right now.  But I have patience, and I believe that, slowly, things will come around.  And I can sleep at night.  And, finally, I believe that my choices so far are giving my children the best chance of being able to choose for themselves.
 
I think the Morg needs people like you - who hate them with a passion and are just ready to rip out the dragon's heart.  
 
But I think the Morg needs people like me, too, who hate them just as much, but are trying to find other, quieter ways of bringing them down. 
 
And just for the record - I do hate the fncking church. 
Hey Nirvana. Don't hold back.  Tell us how you really feel about the church.  
 
Have you considered every other week attending the church of the fishing pole or the church of the hiking boots or the church of the movies or something like it. It doesn't matter as long as the family spends every other Sunday together and not rotting in church.  Of course that may not work out in your family but it's worth a try.
 
I agree KS's suggestion is a radical departure from the OP.
 
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Posted: 05 October 2010 06:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]   

   
 
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In a way, it has become senseless to be a "Liberal Mormon" anymore. Members who thought they had enough clout to stay in and make changes, have been sorely mistaken, as this weekend rantings of BKP has shown. Changes from within, from the bottom up, cannot occur. The "CEO" of the company and his minions have control of the money, and the work-force, and the mindset. Nothing can be changed.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 06:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]   

   
 
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Hiker Daddy:
Finding Nirvana:
Keep Sweet:
Finding Nirvana:

No - I'm in a loving marriage with a wife who happens to be TBM.  
 
That's not to say everything is smooth sailing.  It's not - I don't think any marriage is easy all the time.  It tears her heart out, the idea that I'm not going to make it to the celestial kingdom with her, but she has (so far) chosen to stay married to me because she loves me.  As a consequence of the relatively good relationship we have together - all things considered - there's an outside chance that she may eventually realize I'm not the stereotype of an apostate that the church keeps shoving down her throat.  And she may, eventually, start questioning things for herself.
 
But to make the church the end-all-be-all issue in our marriage?  Either you leave the church or I'm leaving you?  Given her worldview, the only response she could reasonably make would be to divorce me.  And then, not only do I lose any chance I have of leading my family out of the church, I also would lose my best friend and the children we're raising together.  The MORG automatically wins in that scenario - DW and the kids likely become more entrenched in their beliefs because MY behavior fits the church's teachings about evil apostates.
 
 
 Let's say you alternated one Sunday a month and took your kids to a UU or Quaker church, would your wife divorce you and take away the kids?
 
 No - in fact we did that for a while, but I simply don't like church.  I don't like even care much for the UU ceremony of lighting the chalice.  But this kind of thinking is very encouraging - it's very different from your OP.
 
My apostasy has alienated nearly everyone I knew, with the exception of my wife and children.  All those other relationships were ones I was willing to let go of.  But I want to keep MY family, if I can.  And I want to liberate them, if I can.
 
The kind of problem solving you're trying to do here is much more productive, IMHO.  I want to live my life with integrity, but I also want to keep my family together.  I believe you can do both - but it's not so easy.  it takes some work and some creative thinking and a lot of introspection.  You have to examine each of your priorities and decide where you draw your lines.
 
And I'll be honest - I'm not 100% satisfied with where the lines are drawn right now.  But I have patience, and I believe that, slowly, things will come around.  And I can sleep at night.  And, finally, I believe that my choices so far are giving my children the best chance of being able to choose for themselves.
 
I think the Morg needs people like you - who hate them with a passion and are just ready to rip out the dragon's heart.  
 
But I think the Morg needs people like me, too, who hate them just as much, but are trying to find other, quieter ways of bringing them down. 
 
And just for the record - I do hate the fncking church. 
Hey Nirvana. Don't hold back.  Tell us how you really feel about the church.  
 
Have you considered every other week attending the church of the fishing pole or the church of the hiking boots or the church of the movies or something like it. It doesn't matter as long as the family spends every other Sunday together and not rotting in church.  Of course that may not work out in your family but it's worth a try.
 
I agree KS's suggestion is a radical departure from the OP.
 

 This is one of those areas where the lines are not where I want them to be. 

I need to say - I had no intention for this thread to start being about me and my situation.  My main goal in sharing some details was to maybe help show how life is more nuanced and complicated for people who do love (genuinely love, not the mormon fake-love) their spouses and children.  I'm not exactly looking for advice so much as i'm trying to offer a real example.

With that said, though, one of the factors that goes into my situation at home is that dw suffers from depression, and this past year has been a massive ongoing crisis - created in large part, I think, by the fact that I no longer believe in doctrines like "priesthood" and "eternal families."  It's been devastating for DW, probably in ways that neither of us really appreciate, yet. 

As a consequence of her depression and all the tangled issues relating to it and the church, I have to be very, very careful how far and how hard I push.  She's still uncomfortable with the idea of allowing her children to miss church every other week - we both come from families that always, ALWAYS found a way to attend.

So, for now, we still go, but I try to work in other activities as I can.  We spend a decent amount of time in the mountains on Sundays.  We've even camped over a Saturday night recently!  But it's an evolution in her thinking.

Again - not trying to hijack the thread in any way, just wanted to offer a real-life example of what some of us are dealing with.  Kinda like what Lloyd did, but with way too many words.
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The total failure of Liberal Mormonism  
Posted: 05 October 2010 07:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]   

   
 
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Finding Nirvana
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Tessa:
In a way, it has become senseless to be a "Liberal Mormon" anymore. Members who thought they had enough clout to stay in and make changes, have been sorely mistaken, as this weekend rantings of BKP has shown. Changes from within, from the bottom up, cannot occur. The "CEO" of the company and his minions have control of the money, and the work-force, and the mindset. Nothing can be changed.

 I agree with this at the institutional level - the Morg will only change when the government puts financial pressure on it, as evidenced by the Manifesto and the "revelation" giving blacks the priesthood.

I don't believe this is true at the individual level.   I think - I hope - that we can, patiently, educate the people we care about out of the church, but there's a hell of a lot of programming that needs to be overcome.
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Posted: 05 October 2010 07:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Finding Nirvana:
Tessa:
In a way, it has become senseless to be a "Liberal Mormon" anymore. Members who thought they had enough clout to stay in and make changes, have been sorely mistaken, as this weekend rantings of BKP has shown. Changes from within, from the bottom up, cannot occur. The "CEO" of the company and his minions have control of the money, and the work-force, and the mindset. Nothing can be changed.
 
 I agree with this at the institutional level - the Morg will only change when the government puts financial pressure on it, as evidenced by the Manifesto and the "revelation" giving blacks the priesthood.
 
I don't believe this is true at the individual level.   I think - I hope - that we can, patiently, educate the people we care about out of the church, but there's a hell of a lot of programming that needs to be overcome.

 I don't think it would necessarily take outside pressure.  Hell, this is an organization that took a survey of its members before changing its temple ceremony.  If the leadership is convinced they are looking at a sizable hit to their already weak membership numbers, I suspect we'd see something fairly interesting. 

Changing an organization run by its oldest members is a long term project -- sometimes a generation or two has to die off.
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Posted: 05 October 2010 07:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]   

   
 
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Finding Nirvana:
 I agree with this at the institutional level - the Morg will only change when the government puts financial pressure on it, as evidenced by the Manifesto and the "revelation" giving blacks the priesthood.
 
I don't believe this is true at the individual level.   I think - I hope - that we can, patiently, educate the people we care about out of the church, but there's a hell of a lot of programming that needs to be overcome.

 Agreed. At the institutional level the church changes from the top down. They are inspired by God and the members are to follow. That is the order. If the members think something is wrong in the church then the members are out of line because questioning something the church does is the same as questioning something God himself does, and God cannot do anything wrong.

But at the individual level, someone's eyes open up each day.

I wonder how many NOM's have much hope in changing the church in a meaningful way. My impression is that most NOM's have little hope of the church changing and rather are just trying to navigate the troubled waters they are in because they don't want to lose their family.
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Posted: 05 October 2010 07:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]   

   
 
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I tend to see a difference between "liberal mormons," and folks who continue to attend services because of TBM spouses and family issues. I can empathize with the latter, even though that may not be my personal choice. I can understand why and how a person would choose that route.

But I agree with Keep Sweet on the "liberal mormon" thing. Why anyone would keep on keepin' on in the face of the facts doesn't make sense to me. I don't think you have to take up a vendetta against the Mormon church, nor do I think you have to smoke, drink, and go off the deep end with your lifestyle. But to continue to self-label and self-associate with Mormonism knowing the full depth of its evil seems either intellectually lazy or cowardly. Maybe that's a harsh and unwarranted judgement call; maybe not.

If you're already a "liberal Mormon," I can assume your attendance is low, tithing payments are iffy, and extracurricular activities are not Quorum-approved. So why not just cut the cord and forget about it?  You won't be "missed" on Sunday; nobody will be shocked at your decision. Your lifestyle won't change. What is it exactly that keeps that type of "liberal Mormon" associated with the church?
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Posted: 05 October 2010 07:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]   

   
 
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Finding Nirvana
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ZeeZrom:
Finding Nirvana:
Tessa:
In a way, it has become senseless to be a "Liberal Mormon" anymore. Members who thought they had enough clout to stay in and make changes, have been sorely mistaken, as this weekend rantings of BKP has shown. Changes from within, from the bottom up, cannot occur. The "CEO" of the company and his minions have control of the money, and the work-force, and the mindset. Nothing can be changed.
 
 I agree with this at the institutional level - the Morg will only change when the government puts financial pressure on it, as evidenced by the Manifesto and the "revelation" giving blacks the priesthood.
 
I don't believe this is true at the individual level.   I think - I hope - that we can, patiently, educate the people we care about out of the church, but there's a hell of a lot of programming that needs to be overcome.
 
 I don't think it would necessarily take outside pressure.  Hell, this is an organization that took a survey of its members before changing its temple ceremony.  If the leadership is convinced they are looking at a sizable hit to their already weak membership numbers, I suspect we'd see something fairly interesting.  
 
Changing an organization run by its oldest members is a long term project -- sometimes a generation or two has to die off.

 Don't trouble my pessimism with facts!  Damn you!

You're right, of course - I'd forgotten about the temple survey.
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Posted: 05 October 2010 07:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]   

   
 
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AtheistAnarchist:
I tend to see a difference between "liberal mormons," and folks who continue to attend services because of TBM spouses and family issues. I can empathize with the latter, even though that may not be my personal choice. I can understand why and how a person would choose that route.
 
But I agree with Keep Sweet on the "liberal mormon" thing. Why anyone would keep on keepin' on in the face of the facts doesn't make sense to me. I don't think you have to take up a vendetta against the Mormon church, nor do I think you have to smoke, drink, and go off the deep end with your lifestyle. But to continue to self-label and self-associate with Mormonism knowing the full depth of its evil seems either intellectually lazy or cowardly. Maybe that's a harsh and unwarranted judgement call; maybe not.
 
If you're already a "liberal Mormon," I can assume your attendance is low, tithing payments are iffy, and extracurricular activities are not Quorum-approved. So why not just cut the cord and forget about it?  You won't be "missed" on Sunday; nobody will be shocked at your decision. Your lifestyle won't change. What is it exactly that keeps that type of "liberal Mormon" associated with the church?

I think this distinction is valid.  I certainly don't consider myself a liberal Mormon, even though I'm parked on that damn bench every week.

At the same time, I didn't really feel like Keep Sweet was making this distinction in the OP, either.
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Posted: 05 October 2010 07:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]   

   
 
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It's usually people like Carol Lynn Pearson and Scott Card who continue to be "members" because their income comes from church membership. Authors that depend on the church for income...intellectuals who know better....probably have a stake in trying to make changes from the inside out. Doesn't work very well, as the "September 6" found out 30 years ago.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 07:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]   

   
 
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The September Six found out 17 years ago.
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Posted: 05 October 2010 07:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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They were working and publishing way before they got exed.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 08:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]   

   
 
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AtheistAnarchist:
If you're already a "liberal Mormon," I can assume your attendance is low, tithing payments are iffy, and extracurricular activities are not Quorum-approved. So why not just cut the cord and forget about it?  You won't be "missed" on Sunday; nobody will be shocked at your decision. Your lifestyle won't change. What is it exactly that keeps that type of "liberal Mormon" associated with the church?
 
There are really a lot of answers. 
 
To me, the main issue in this thread is about how some people are arrogant enough to dictate what is best for another human being.
 
You and KeepSweet feel that you have the right to make decisions for yourself, but that people you disagree with are not afforded that same right.  
 
If someone asks your advice, give it.  If someone close to you needs your advice, give it.  Otherwise, decide for yourself and let other people do the same.
 
I believe the greater question is, why after extricating yourself from a difficult situation where people judged you for your actions, do you still feel the need to judge others for the decisions in their personal lives?  
 
Discussing this topic objectively is fine but KeepSweet making personal attacks on Nirvana is not.  It's way out of line.  
 
 
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Posted: 05 October 2010 08:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]   

   
 
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It's been years of "hope." Hope that the church would grow and accept, engage and be "christ-like" if they were indeed "the true church of god on earth." It's that hope that's kept many "liberal-thinking" members within the walls...not wanting to rock the boats of the rest of their TBM family members... But hope has died, there was a glimmer with the Jensen apology...but that hope has been dashed this last Sunday morning. So many were hoping that the church would expand the Jensen apology, to forming some idea of a "committed-relationship" doctrine for gay members. Unfortunately, the loss of "tax-exemption" isn't looming large, especially since the US government itself is still wrangling about the "don't ask, don't tell" policy of the military. And so it goes....
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 08:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]   

   
 
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Keep Sweet
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Redefine:

I believe the greater question is, why after extricating yourself from a difficult situation where people judged you for your actions, do you still feel the need to judge others for the decisions in their personal lives?  
 
Discussing this topic objectively is fine but KeepSweet making personal attacks on Nirvana is not.  It's way out of line.  
 
 
 
 There was no personal attack. It is a statement of fact that the husband and the father is in charge of the family's religion by the rules of Mormonism.  Men who submit to their wives on questions of religion are failed Mormons, not failed men: there is no Heavenly Mother, remember? Women cannot hold any of the keys, remember? Only men have rights in the LDS, and men who let their women decide they have to stay in the  church are doubly apostate: they don't believe, they know it's a lie, they keep going along to get along, and they are abdicating the fixed gender roles that Mormonism assigns from birth until way past death.
 
The decision to stay in the Church is a vicious and selfish decision that shows moral cowardice and intellectual limpness. As we saw in California and Maine, the LDS is a political force for evil.  Choose to be complicit in evil because you are too weak to stand up, but don't come here and pretend you're doing something different from just go along to get along.
 
Moreover, despite your s/n, you don't define the "line" of acceptable discourse, your approval is not required, this ain't EQ. I think liberal mormons can be categorized as either Cowards or Fools, and I've said as much to Laurel Ulrich to her face, so for sure I'm not scared to say it here.


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 08:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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So...which category were you, Sweet?
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 08:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]   

   
 
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Keep Sweet
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Tessa:
So...which category were you, Sweet?
 
 Both, I was a foolish coward.  But I never made it worse by becoming  a "liberal Mormon."


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 08:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Judge not. Until you walk in the moccasins.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 08:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]   

   
 
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FindingPeace
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Keep Sweet:
Redefine:

I believe the greater question is, why after extricating yourself from a difficult situation where people judged you for your actions, do you still feel the need to judge others for the decisions in their personal lives?  
 
Discussing this topic objectively is fine but KeepSweet making personal attacks on Nirvana is not.  It's way out of line.  
 
 
 
 There was no personal attack. It is a statement of fact that the husband and the father is in charge of the family's religion by the rules of Mormonism.  Men who submit to their wives on questions of religion are failed Mormons, not failed men: there is no Heavenly Mother, remember? Women cannot hold any of the keys, remember? Only men have rights in the LDS, and men who let their women decide they have to stay in the  church are doubly apostate: they don't believe, they know it's a lie, they keep going along to get along, and they are abdicating the fixed gender roles that Mormonism assigns from birth until way past death.
 
The decision to stay in the Church is a vicious and selfish decision that shows moral cowardice and intellectual limpness. As we saw in California and Maine, the LDS is a political force for evil.  Choose to be complicit in evil because you are too weak to stand up, but don't come here and pretend you're doing something different from just go along to get along.
 
Moreover, despite your s/n, you don't define the "line" of acceptable discourse, your approval is not required, this ain't EQ. I think liberal mormons can be categorized as either Cowards or Fools, and I've said as much to Laurel Ulrich to her face, so for sure I'm not scared to say it here.

 You are an asshole.  You are no different that Boyd K. Packer.  You insist on your narrow view of Mormonism and no one else gets to define their relationship with the church, their families and their own spouse.   You refuse to listen to anyone who has a different opinion than your own.  People are telling you why they do what they do and it is the most selfless thing they can do for the people they love. 

Your words are full of hate and intolerance for anyone who doesn't see mormons the same way you do.  Good God....you are just like BKP!  

Mormonism is just a name applied to a group of people who worship together.  We are all different and individual. 

You are personally attacking everyone in this forum who won't say "F*CK YOU MORMON CHURCH!"  and walk away.  You use inflammatory language to put people down who won't sacrifice their family for the GOD DAMNED MORMON CHURCH!

You call us cowards, fools, weak, pretenders.  F*CK YOU!  You are an immature selfish arrogant little bastard!  How many time have these posters told you that you don't know anything about spouse, children or relationships because you don't have any of those at stake?  And yet, you keep on talking!  You aren't listening because you are so married to your own idea of what is right and wrong.  

Theres a new BKP in town and his name is Keep Sweet.








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Myths which are believed in tend to become true. George Orwell
The beginning of wisdom is found in doubting; by doubting we come to the question, and by seeking we may come upon the truth.  Pierre Abelard
“The truth is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution.”  Dumbledore


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 08:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]   

   
 
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Finding Nirvana
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Yeah - I thought we were getting somewhere. Oh well.
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Posted: 05 October 2010 09:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Keep Sweet may be one of those types of men who's priesthood was a power-trip...but now that the "truth" has been dashed on the rocks, the power is lost. Too many men of the church have the same BKP mindset that it's "one-way or the highway." No shades of grey, all black and white. It's sad for them...trying to still grasp at the power straws.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 09:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]   

   
 
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Happy Guy
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Tessa:
They were working and publishing way before they got exed.

When you said "found out" I thought you were referring to when they were exed. No biggie.
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But then again, I could be wrong…


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 09:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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No problem. It was years in the making. Hoffman and his bombs were the final straw. The embarrassment of Hinckley's trying to hide the forged "offensive documents" pulled the church into a stance they can not back down from. Never be caught again.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 09:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]   

   
 
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Keep Sweet
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@FindingPeace-- did you talk like that at your last tithe settlement meeting or did you just write a big ole check like the man said?  Maybe if you showed some of that pepper at home, your spouse would respect your religious preferences.


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 09:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Sweet, how many tithing checks and fast offerings did you write out, before you jumped?

*There are always three fingers pointing back when someone points a finger of fate at someone else.*
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 09:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]   

   
 
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Hiker Daddy
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Finding Nirvana:
Yeah - I thought we were getting somewhere. Oh well.
 
As a reminder here are the house rules.
The mission of the Post-Mormon Community is to provide a safe and supportive environment for people struggling with their Mormon beliefs, or who have left the Mormon Church.  We accomplish that mission by connecting people who have years of experience outside the church with those first discovering they have the wings to explore the myriad of questions, ideas, feelings, hurts and new discoveries as they explore life beyond Mormonism. When considering what is and is not appropriate content for this site (including choice of username, avatar, the content of forum posts, images used, and the on-line treatment of other community members), ask yourself, "Does this contribute to the mission of Post-Mormon.org?"  If the answer is "yes", then it is probably appropriate content for this site. 
 

 
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“I can’t go back to yesterday because I was a different person then.” Alice in Wonderland.


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 09:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]   

   
 
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Keep Sweet: 
Moreover, despite your s/n, you don't define the "line" of acceptable discourse, your approval is not required, this ain't EQ. I think liberal mormons can be categorized as either Cowards or Fools, and I've said as much to Laurel Ulrich to her face, so for sure I'm not scared to say it here.
 
 
At this point I am not questioning your ability to be an a**hole to someone's face, much less on this forum (or at NOM for that matter).  
 
Do you understand the point I was attempting to make in my last post?  See if you can wrap your mind around it and reply without using weasel words or throwing down your righteous judgement.
 
It shouldn't be hard if you try to understand my message.  
 
 
 
 

 
 
 
 
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The Problem with Atheism
Learning is loving.


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 09:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]   

   
 
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Keep Sweet
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Tessa:
Sweet, how many tithing checks and fast offerings did you write out, before you jumped?
 
*There are always three fingers pointing back when someone points a finger of fate at someone else.* 
 
 Zero tithe and maybe $100 total in fast: I was a college student when I went on mission, and then I quit mission and church. My parents are people of modest means (I already make much more than my dad and I'm only 27) so that tithing has prevented them from saving for retirement or being able to send my younger sibs to any school that isn't either LDS or Utah State.
 
Being Mormon isn't fate! That's my entire point. It's a choice, like smoking cigarettes, and even more disgusting.


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 09:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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You went on a mission, on your family's nickel. How many were converted under your hand? You are responsible for their fate.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 09:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]   

   
 
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And this... 
PostMormon.org is a place where community members can meet and talk in an environment that is safe and supportive. In that context we encourage people to explore the limits of their personal belief, and to feel free to express that belief as they engage in mutually supportive dialogue with other members. However, opinions regarding sensitive issues such as religious preference, sexual orientation, political issues, etc. should always be couched as simply that, personal opinions, rather than as matters of fact. The line has been crossed when someone ceases saying, "This is what I believe," and begins saying, "This is what YOU should believe. 
 
We only have a few rules, but this is one of them.  There IS a line of acceptable discourse. 
 
 
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As Neo reaches for the red pill Morpheus warns Neo
“Remember, all I’m offering is the truth. Nothing more.”


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 09:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]   

   
 
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FindingPeace
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Keep Sweet:
@FindingPeace-- did you talk like that at your last tithe settlement meeting or did you just write a big ole check like the man said?  Maybe if you showed some of that pepper at home, your spouse would respect your religious preferences.

 I understand what you are doing.  You want to make me feel bad for loving my DH who respects me and my religious journey.  My marriage has weathered the mormon storm because I went slow and got myself out with our 4 children.  I call my way a success.  So STFU. 

Dude.  Get a handle on yourself.  I don't have to explain anything to you.  You are an angry young man who has been damaged by the mormon church.  Welcome to the club.  We were all damaged.  Some to greater degrees than others.  Just because your pain is raw don't throw it at me!  I didn't do anything.    I am helping others get out of the church one baby step at a time.  No one is going to listen to your immature rantings and hear what you have to say because they can't hear any logic through the ANGER!

Get over the anger and then do something productive not destructive. 

And when you stop throwing insults at me and everyone else on this board...I promise to stop calling you immature.  

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Myths which are believed in tend to become true. George Orwell
The beginning of wisdom is found in doubting; by doubting we come to the question, and by seeking we may come upon the truth.  Pierre Abelard
“The truth is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution.”  Dumbledore


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 09:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 69 ]   

   
 
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Hiker Daddy
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Keep Sweet.  I don't question your motives.  You think people should shit or get off the pot.  I get that.  I question your tactics.  I did read that others have called you some names as well.  I don't condone anybody and asshole on this forum that but I think the viscousness started with you.
 
I can't stand that line in the sand mentality even if I agree with the idea.
 
No social or personal change can happen without compassion. At least that is how I see it.  It seems you want to bully NOMs into leaving the church by calling them chickens, morally corrupt etc.  However, they have been bullied by far worse than you could ever dish out? NOMs are Mormons for Christ's sake. They have been bullied by the meanest of bullies and most of them are still standing.
 
 
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“I can’t go back to yesterday because I was a different person then.” Alice in Wonderland.


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 09:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 70 ]   

   
 
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Keep Sweet
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Tessa:
You went on a mission, on your family's nickel. How many were converted under your hand? You are responsible for their fate.
 
 I paid for my own mission thank you. I did it trying to teach SAT, LSAT, MCAT and calculus to idiot rich kids in Alpine and other rich towns for $20/hour (more than my dad makes after working 20 yrs for BYU facilities management, btw).
 
As for converts, I served in Spain Madrid where people are sophisticated and educated. Jose and I had not one investigator between us for the 11 months I was there, not one. I used to be embarrassed by this, but now I am proud of it.
 
I'm not a meek lil Mormon boy anymore, I can take it as well as dish it out.  Comparing me to BKP is fine, calling me names is fine, telling me to frig off also fine.  I still think liberal Mormons are cowards, I still think the LDS is all evil, and after last Sunday, I no longer have any respect for any person who voluntarily associates him or herself with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints regardless of any excuses.
 
 


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 09:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 71 ]   

   
 
Fred
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. 

   


Posted: 05 October 2010 09:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 72 ]   

   
 
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Keep Sweet
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Hiker Daddy:
Keep Sweet.  I don't question your motives.  You think people should shit or get off the pot.  I get that.  I question your tactics.  I did read that others have called you some names as well.  I don't condone anybody and asshole on this forum that but I think the viscousness started with you.
 
I can't stand that line in the sand mentality even if I agree with the idea.
 
No social or personal change can happen without compassion. At least that is how I see it.  It seems you want to bully NOMs into leaving the church by calling them chickens, morally corrupt etc.  However, they have been bullied by far worse than you could ever dish out? NOMs are Mormons for Christ's sake. They have been bullied by the meanest of bullies and most of them are still standing.
 
 
 
 NO, I dont' want NOMs to leave the church, I want them to stop pretending to be liberal, to stop mocking simple TBM LDS people like my parents who never had the chance for college and grad school.  
 
Being an active tithing member of the LDS is like being a member of the Communist party, it's an immoral choice that hurts the world but serves the members.
 
I like the "line in the sand," I am not you, and I have every right to say that.  I never told anybody to frigg off, I never called anybody an a-hole, and yet I'm the one being called out for saying what I know to be true: Every active adult member of the LDS is equally reprensible regardless of the alibis they construct for public consumption. There is no moral difference betweeen Boyd Packer and Marlin Jensen and Laurel Ulrich, all are co-conspirators in Mormonism.
 
 


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 09:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 73 ]   

   
 
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norcal out
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Keep Sweet:
Tessa:
You went on a mission, on your family's nickel. How many were converted under your hand? You are responsible for their fate.
 
 I paid for my own mission thank you. I did it trying to teach SAT, LSAT, MCAT and calculus to idiot rich kids in Alpine and other rich towns for $20/hour (more than my dad makes after working 20 yrs for BYU facilities management, btw).
 
As for converts, I served in Spain Madrid where people are sophisticated and educated. Jose and I had not one investigator between us for the 11 months I was there, not one. I used to be embarrassed by this, but now I am proud of it.
 
I'm not a meek lil Mormon boy anymore, I can take it as well as dish it out.  Comparing me to BKP is fine, calling me names is fine, telling me to frig off also fine.  I still think liberal Mormons are cowards, I still think the LDS is all evil, and after last Sunday, I no longer have any respect for any person who voluntarily associates him or herself with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints regardless of any excuses.
 
 

 Judge much?

I for one started out as a Convert and later became a naive but true TBM.  During my transition out, I went from liberal Mormon, to Nom, to pretending, to out.  It is a process and everyone works their way through it at a different speed and along a different path.  Today is just a snapshot in time.

In the church, I found the majority of people were hard working, and trying to do the best they can.  The best part about Prop 8, and the recent B. KKK Packer talk is that members that may have not been paying attention may start to see what is going on.  I personally know of quite a few TBMs who are very troubled by the bigotry.  They are at a place where they believe in the fundamentals of the church, but are troubled by the leadership.  Hopefully this will be the beginning of their way out.  I also know TBMs who are bigoted, are cheering on BKKKP,  and I don't have any respect for these people.

I think you are failing to see the individual diversity that is contained in any group and are guilty of pre-judging people based where they are from, etc. rather than who they are individually.
 


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 09:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 74 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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It does begin to look like conspiracy theory 101 among the brethren themselves. One wonders if there is any back-biting/nail-biting going on within the 70s quorum.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 10:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 75 ]   

   
 
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AngelicFerret
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Keep Sweet:
Tessa:
You went on a mission, on your family's nickel. How many were converted under your hand? You are responsible for their fate.
 
 I paid for my own mission thank you. I did it trying to teach SAT, LSAT, MCAT and calculus to idiot rich kids in Alpine and other rich towns for $20/hour (more than my dad makes after working 20 yrs for BYU facilities management, btw).
 
As for converts, I served in Spain Madrid where people are sophisticated and educated. Jose and I had not one investigator between us for the 11 months I was there, not one. I used to be embarrassed by this, but now I am proud of it.
 
I'm not a meek lil Mormon boy anymore, I can take it as well as dish it out.  Comparing me to BKP is fine, calling me names is fine, telling me to frig off also fine.  I still think liberal Mormons are cowards, I still think the LDS is all evil, and after last Sunday, I no longer have any respect for any person who voluntarily associates him or herself with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints regardless of any excuses.
 
 

 The church itself is evil, but can you really say that the people are? Does being brainwashed into an evil religion that you were born into make you evil? I would bet you that the vast majority of the membership would shed the evil bits of the church in an instant if they found out the truth.

 And that means people who are in there pretending already have. You won't see a NOM gay bashing. I think it's very unfair to point fingers at people who are trying to preserve marriages (not all marriages in the church are loveless), trying to maintain relationships with kids, or who found out while attending a church school and have to hide it until graduation. (most credits from church schools won't transfer. Wonder why.)

 I may not have witnessed a suicide attempt but I do understand your position. I have very strong opinions about what Fudgepacker said during conference and there is no question that the church is a very evil organization, and that won't change anytime soon. But not everyone can simply walk away at this point in their lives.
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Posted: 05 October 2010 10:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 76 ]   

   
 
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thewriterwithin
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Keep Sweet:
Hiker Daddy:
Keep Sweet.  I don't question your motives.  You think people should shit or get off the pot.  I get that.  I question your tactics.  I did read that others have called you some names as well.  I don't condone anybody and asshole on this forum that but I think the viscousness started with you.
 
I can't stand that line in the sand mentality even if I agree with the idea.
 
No social or personal change can happen without compassion. At least that is how I see it.  It seems you want to bully NOMs into leaving the church by calling them chickens, morally corrupt etc.  However, they have been bullied by far worse than you could ever dish out? NOMs are Mormons for Christ's sake. They have been bullied by the meanest of bullies and most of them are still standing.
 
 
 
 NO, I dont' want NOMs to leave the church, I want them to stop pretending to be liberal, to stop mocking simple TBM LDS people like my parents who never had the chance for college and grad school.  
 
Being an active tithing member of the LDS is like being a member of the Communist party, it's an immoral choice that hurts the world but serves the members.
 
I like the "line in the sand," I am not you, and I have every right to say that.  I never told anybody to frigg off, I never called anybody an a-hole, and yet I'm the one being called out for saying what I know to be true: Every active adult member of the LDS is equally reprensible regardless of the alibis they construct for public consumption. There is no moral difference betweeen Boyd Packer and Marlin Jensen and Laurel Ulrich, all are co-conspirators in Mormonism.
 
 
Well, uhm -- I have a TMB sister who agrees with you! She is angry at those who no longer believe, yet for whatever reason play the game. She wants them to stop pretending to be Mormons! A lot of anger all the way around here.
 
And then there's little ol' me. So comfortable with "Judge not that ye be not judged." And I'm not even a Christian. (Although I am on the record as believing in a historical Jesus, although that doesn't mean I believe he said what was attributed to him.) I wonder how many of us live up to your beliefs all that often, whether we are "liberal" or "Christian"?
 
I guess I believe in letting people change, realize, move at their own pace. Beyond that, I believe it doesn't matter whether you believe in that or not -- they will anyway.
 
Yes, certain institutions are so intrinsically corrupt you must speak out against them or be compromised (slavery comes to mind). I'm willing to entertain arguments the LDS Church is now there. But on the other hand, I don't think Laurel Ulrich is "the same" as Boyd Packer. To go there is (for me) is to erase how destructive and wrong-headed Boyd Packer is.
 
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Posted: 05 October 2010 10:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 77 ]   

   
 
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AtheistAnarchist
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Redefine:
AtheistAnarchist:
If you're already a "liberal Mormon," I can assume your attendance is low, tithing payments are iffy, and extracurricular activities are not Quorum-approved. So why not just cut the cord and forget about it?  You won't be "missed" on Sunday; nobody will be shocked at your decision. Your lifestyle won't change. What is it exactly that keeps that type of "liberal Mormon" associated with the church?
 
There are really a lot of answers. 
 
To me, the main issue in this thread is about how some people are arrogant enough to dictate what is best for another human being.
 
You and KeepSweet feel that you have the right to make decisions for yourself, but that people you disagree with are not afforded that same right.  
 
If someone asks your advice, give it.  If someone close to you needs your advice, give it.  Otherwise, decide for yourself and let other people do the same.
 
I believe the greater question is, why after extricating yourself from a difficult situation where people judged you for your actions, do you still feel the need to judge others for the decisions in their personal lives?  
 
Discussing this topic objectively is fine but KeepSweet making personal attacks on Nirvana is not.  It's way out of line.  
 
 

I'm not dictating what's best for anyone. I'm actually posing the question of why a "liberal Mormon" of the sort who doesn't believe and isn't playing a role to keep the peace with a spouse or with family still continues to self-associate and self-label as a Mormon. I expressly stated that it's my opinion that it comes across as intellectually lazy or cowardly. An opinion isn't a dictate.

I would actually really like to know what keeps a "liberal Mormon" of that sort "in" the church. I think it has psychological applications that could apply to why it's easier for some to walk away dusting off their hands, while others are torn apart by their own apostasy.

If you believe drinking is okay, Catholics can still get to heaven, being gay isn't a sin, tithing is optional, and lots of stuff in the scriptures is just allegory, you're not a Mormon. Not really. Why call yourself one? Maybe it's just a cultural label, not a religious ideological label. Maybe you like being a "rebel," or showing other Mormons how open minded you are and how uptight they are. I don't know.

But I'd like to.
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Posted: 05 October 2010 10:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 78 ]   

   
 
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Keep Sweet:
Hiker Daddy:
Keep Sweet.  I don't question your motives.  You think people should shit or get off the pot.  I get that.  I question your tactics.  I did read that others have called you some names as well.  I don't condone anybody and asshole on this forum that but I think the viscousness started with you.
 
I can't stand that line in the sand mentality even if I agree with the idea.
 
No social or personal change can happen without compassion. At least that is how I see it.  It seems you want to bully NOMs into leaving the church by calling them chickens, morally corrupt etc.  However, they have been bullied by far worse than you could ever dish out? NOMs are Mormons for Christ's sake. They have been bullied by the meanest of bullies and most of them are still standing.
 
 
 
 NO, I dont' want NOMs to leave the church, I want them to stop pretending to be liberal, to stop mocking simple TBM LDS people like my parents who never had the chance for college and grad school.  
 
Being an active tithing member of the LDS is like being a member of the Communist party, it's an immoral choice that hurts the world but serves the members.
 
I like the "line in the sand," I am not you, and I have every right to say that.  I never told anybody to frigg off, I never called anybody an a-hole, and yet I'm the one being called out for saying what I know to be true: Every active adult member of the LDS is equally reprensible regardless of the alibis they construct for public consumption. There is no moral difference betweeen Boyd Packer and Marlin Jensen and Laurel Ulrich, all are co-conspirators in Mormonism.
 
 
 I am curious.  With all of your bravado, do you talk to your own TBM parents with as much disdain and insult as you do here?  They are the cowardly, reprehensible, fools, immoral chooser and any other insult that you have thrown out to strangers.

You are doing more damage to Post Mormons everywhere with your vitriol.  Live a good life.  Be a good example.  Build bridges.  Jeff Ricks built this place.  He did something proactive.  Think about it. 



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Posted: 05 October 2010 10:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 79 ]   

   
 
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Keep Sweet:
Hiker Daddy:
Keep Sweet.  I don't question your motives.  You think people should shit or get off the pot.  I get that.  I question your tactics.  I did read that others have called you some names as well.  I don't condone anybody and asshole on this forum that but I think the viscousness started with you.
 
I can't stand that line in the sand mentality even if I agree with the idea.
 
No social or personal change can happen without compassion. At least that is how I see it.  It seems you want to bully NOMs into leaving the church by calling them chickens, morally corrupt etc.  However, they have been bullied by far worse than you could ever dish out? NOMs are Mormons for Christ's sake. They have been bullied by the meanest of bullies and most of them are still standing.
 
 
 
 NO, I dont' want NOMs to leave the church, I want them to stop pretending to be liberal, to stop mocking simple TBM LDS people like my parents who never had the chance for college and grad school.  
 
Being an active tithing member of the LDS is like being a member of the Communist party, it's an immoral choice that hurts the world but serves the members.
 
I like the "line in the sand," I am not you, and I have every right to say that.  I never told anybody to frigg off, I never called anybody an a-hole, and yet I'm the one being called out for saying what I know to be true: Every active adult member of the LDS is equally reprensible regardless of the alibis they construct for public consumption. There is no moral difference betweeen Boyd Packer and Marlin Jensen and Laurel Ulrich, all are co-conspirators in Mormonism.
 
 
DUDE!!!  Take a pill!!!
 
just becuase we are on different roads does not mean either of us are lost. 
 
Show a little respect, try to understand that what is right for you may not be right for some one else.  It is okay to admit that you do not understand without condemning some one who has taken a different path. 
 
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Posted: 05 October 2010 10:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 80 ]   

   
 
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Isn't it lovely that the church with it's power-plays and money-grubbing ways, insidiously teaches people how to undermine each other.

Pulling the "good vs. evil" card constantly.

We try and climb out of the mire...try not to be judging...try to uplift the downtrodden.

Yet we get caught and pulled back into the quandary....the "one-way-only" signs all going in circles.

Maybe it's the vitriol from Sunday...infecting all it touches.
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The total failure of Liberal Mormonism  
Posted: 05 October 2010 10:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 81 ]   

   
 
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Weird Fishes
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I'll respond to the ideas from the OP and not the digression that has followed. 
 
The "best" way to leave mormonism obviously differs for each person, their personality, their life situation. I know that I've given my story probably too many times, and it would be better told by my DW, but:
 
I was a shelf mormon since the end of my mission. Hoffman, McConkie-England, and Mike Quinn's work was coming out just after I came home. After several years (I could have used the internet back then ) of vacillation, I went with my feelings and returned to church, got married, had a family, got busy.
 
DW, on the other hand, was a convert and 18, and so was learning about many of these things I already knew as the internet came into play. She was never happy about the misogynistic doctrines, and started to express thoughts about things she did not like--the male power hierarchy, polygamy, callings detracting from family time. These things soon turned to an expression of general dissatisfaction with the institution, but she stopped short of saying she wanted to leave.
 
After a couple of years of this, she finally told me she was going to stop going to church, realizing that anything might happen. This turned out to be the best thing she could have done, even though it might have ended our marriage. As soon as she said this, I realized that 1) the church was making me unhappy too, and 2) that given the choice between the church and DW, choosing DW was a no-brainer. It wasn't that I chose her over the church that amazed me, it was just how easy and self-evident a decision it was. I asked her to keep coming to church with me. No ultimata, no threats, it was just that going without her seemed just too sad. Four months later, I had a job outside of Utah (where we had been living). Five months later, I started reading, and I didn't make it 3 days before I knew I was done, too.
 
So, the point of all this was, was DW's approach the best one? It was certainly successful as far as the nuclear family goes (the extended family is another story). Should she have told me earlier? Later? Differently? It's hard to say. There were times that she told me certain things about what she'd found, and I responded quite defensively. I'm not sure if I'd be out yet had she not finally just come out with it. But, after she "came out" to me, our relationship certainly got better, because she allowed me to know her at a level of honesty and intimacy that I had not really allowed myself to do with her.
 
So, I guess what I'm saying is that even if it's not possible or feasible to "come out" or be totally forthcoming regarding our disbelief to everyone, allowing those closest to us to know how we feel gives them a chance to know us at a level they never could had we kept our thoughts to ourselves.
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Posted: 05 October 2010 10:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 82 ]   

   
 
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FindingPeace:

 
 I am curious.  With all of your bravado, do you talk to your own TBM parents with as much disdain and insult as you do here?  They are the cowardly, reprehensible, fools, immoral chooser and any other insult that you have thrown out to strangers.
 
You are doing more damage to Post Mormons everywhere with your vitriol.  Live a good life.  Be a good example.  Build bridges.  Jeff Ricks built this place.  He did something proactive.  Think about it.  
 
 
 
 
 Ok curious, you did ask. The last time I talked to my parents 2+ years ago l, I told them that I would call Utah CPS if Dear Dad beat my youngest brother the way he beat me. I also told them everything I've said here and more, including graphic details of my comp's attempted suicide and my carrying him bleeding to the Infirmaria at 2am.  I told them I think the church is evil, that they are being cheated, that they can't afford the tithe and never could. And they reacted like the Mormons on here react: don't wanna hear it, call me names, banned me.
 
  What none of you can understand is the responsibility that comes when you witness a wonderful and beautiful young man like my comp cut his wrists out of fear and shame of being gay, fear and shame that I helped foster when I stupidly threatened to out him to the MP.  It is at that moment that the entire moral consequence of Joseph Smith's great con job becomes completely transparent.
 
When I read Boyd K Packer's comments at GC, I was physically ill and had to vomit.  I don't know any LDS in real life anymore, I'm totally closeted about being born Mormon, so I came on Postmo to express my indignation.
 
 
I am not Jeff Ricks, sorry.  


   


Posted: 05 October 2010 10:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 83 ]   

   
 
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So you weren't raised in the "sweet spirit" home touted by the church. You have suffered....and are lashing out. At least, you have a place to do so.
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Posted: 05 October 2010 10:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 84 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Keep Sweet:
FindingPeace:

 
 I am curious.  With all of your bravado, do you talk to your own TBM parents with as much disdain and insult as you do here?  They are the cowardly, reprehensible, fools, immoral chooser and any other insult that you have thrown out to strangers.
 
You are doing more damage to Post Mormons everywhere with your vitriol.  Live a good life.  Be a good example.  Build bridges.  Jeff Ricks built this place.  He did something proactive.  Think about it.  
 
 
 
 
 Ok curious, you did ask. The last time I talked to my parents 2+ years ago l, I told them that I would call Utah CPS if Dear Dad beat my youngest brother the way he beat me. I also told them everything I've said here and more, including graphic details of my comp's attempted suicide and my carrying him bleeding to the Infirmaria at 2am.  I told them I think the church is evil, that they are being cheated, that they can't afford the tithe and never could. And they reacted like the Mormons on here react: don't wanna hear it, call me names, banned me.
 
  What none of you can understand is the responsibility that comes when you witness a wonderful and beautiful young man like my comp cut his wrists out of fear and shame of being gay, fear and shame that I helped foster when I stupidly threatened to out him to the MP.  It is at that moment that the entire moral consequence of Joseph Smith's great con job becomes completely transparent.
 
When I read Boyd K Packer's comments at GC, I was physically ill and had to vomit.  I don't know any LDS in real life anymore, I'm totally closeted about being born Mormon, so I came on Postmo to express my indignation.
 
 
I am not Jeff Ricks, sorry.  

 I hope some day you can forgive yourself.  I think you'll find that will reduce your need to lash out at others who are suffering.
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Posted: 05 October 2010 10:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 85 ]   

   
 
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AtheistAnarchist:
Redefine:
AtheistAnarchist:
If you're already a "liberal Mormon," I can assume your attendance is low, tithing payments are iffy, and extracurricular activities are not Quorum-approved. So why not just cut the cord and forget about it?  You won't be "missed" on Sunday; nobody will be shocked at your decision. Your lifestyle won't change. What is it exactly that keeps that type of "liberal Mormon" associated with the church?
 
There are really a lot of answers. 
 
To me, the main issue in this thread is about how some people are arrogant enough to dictate what is best for another human being.
 
You and KeepSweet feel that you have the right to make decisions for yourself, but that people you disagree with are not afforded that same right.  
 
If someone asks your advice, give it.  If someone close to you needs your advice, give it.  Otherwise, decide for yourself and let other people do the same.
 
I believe the greater question is, why after extricating yourself from a difficult situation where people judged you for your actions, do you still feel the need to judge others for the decisions in their personal lives?  
 
Discussing this topic objectively is fine but KeepSweet making personal attacks on Nirvana is not.  It's way out of line.  
 
 
 
I'm not dictating what's best for anyone. I'm actually posing the question of why a "liberal Mormon" of the sort who doesn't believe and isn't playing a role to keep the peace with a spouse or with family still continues to self-associate and self-label as a Mormon. I expressly stated that it's my opinion that it comes across as intellectually lazy or cowardly. An opinion isn't a dictate.
 
I would actually really like to know what keeps a "liberal Mormon" of that sort "in" the church. I think it has psychological applications that could apply to why it's easier for some to walk away dusting off their hands, while others are torn apart by their own apostasy.
 
If you believe drinking is okay, Catholics can still get to heaven, being gay isn't a sin, tithing is optional, and lots of stuff in the scriptures is just allegory, you're not a Mormon. Not really. Why call yourself one? Maybe it's just a cultural label, not a religious ideological label. Maybe you like being a "rebel," or showing other Mormons how open minded you are and how uptight they are. I don't know.
 
But I'd like to. 
 AA.  Unfortunately I think you got lumped in with Keep Sweet.  I think you have some great questions too.  I know those folks too.  The ones that don't  believe and could leave with little fallout to their lives but choose to stay and call themselves Mormons.  I would love to sit down with them and figure out why.  It's a puzzle to me too.
 
Of course I think this thread has become about respecting the opinion those with whom you disagree and not so much about liberal Mormons.
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Posted: 05 October 2010 10:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 86 ]   

   
 
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Ahau
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Keep Sweet:
Hiker Daddy:
Keep Sweet.  I don't question your motives.  You think people should shit or get off the pot.  I get that.  I question your tactics.  I did read that others have called you some names as well.  I don't condone anybody and asshole on this forum that but I think the viscousness started with you.
 
I can't stand that line in the sand mentality even if I agree with the idea.
 
No social or personal change can happen without compassion. At least that is how I see it.  It seems you want to bully NOMs into leaving the church by calling them chickens, morally corrupt etc.  However, they have been bullied by far worse than you could ever dish out? NOMs are Mormons for Christ's sake. They have been bullied by the meanest of bullies and most of them are still standing.
 
 
 
 NO, I dont' want NOMs to leave the church, I want them to stop pretending to be liberal, to stop mocking simple TBM LDS people like my parents who never had the chance for college and grad school.  
 
Being an active tithing member of the LDS is like being a member of the Communist party, it's an immoral choice that hurts the world but serves the members.
 
I like the "line in the sand," I am not you, and I have every right to say that.  I never told anybody to frigg off, I never called anybody an a-hole, and yet I'm the one being called out for saying what I know to be true: Every active adult member of the LDS is equally reprensible regardless of the alibis they construct for public consumption. There is no moral difference betweeen Boyd Packer and Marlin Jensen and Laurel Ulrich, all are co-conspirators in Mormonism.
 
 


By this same line of reasoning, every peasant in Siberia is as guilty as Stalin, and Hitler was as innocent as every field medic in his army. This reasoning is flawed. Do I really need to point to the second article of faith to find tolerance?
I think your point here is that people should be intellectually honest, and I agree. I think, however, you will find that you will be more persuasive when you inspire others to be better and give them the freedom to be, rather than talking down to them, which is what you are doing.
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Posted: 05 October 2010 11:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 87 ]   

   
 
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FindingPeace
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Keep Sweet:
FindingPeace:

 
 I am curious.  With all of your bravado, do you talk to your own TBM parents with as much disdain and insult as you do here?  They are the cowardly, reprehensible, fools, immoral chooser and any other insult that you have thrown out to strangers.
 
You are doing more damage to Post Mormons everywhere with your vitriol.  Live a good life.  Be a good example.  Build bridges.  Jeff Ricks built this place.  He did something proactive.  Think about it.  
 
 
 
 
 Ok curious, you did ask. The last time I talked to my parents 2+ years ago l, I told them that I would call Utah CPS if Dear Dad beat my youngest brother the way he beat me. I also told them everything I've said here and more, including graphic details of my comp's attempted suicide and my carrying him bleeding to the Infirmaria at 2am.  I told them I think the church is evil, that they are being cheated, that they can't afford the tithe and never could. And they reacted like the Mormons on here react: don't wanna hear it, call me names, banned me.
 
  What none of you can understand is the responsibility that comes when you witness a wonderful and beautiful young man like my comp cut his wrists out of fear and shame of being gay, fear and shame that I helped foster when I stupidly threatened to out him to the MP.  It is at that moment that the entire moral consequence of Joseph Smith's great con job becomes completely transparent.
 
When I read Boyd K Packer's comments at GC, I was physically ill and had to vomit.  I don't know any LDS in real life anymore, I'm totally closeted about being born Mormon, so I came on Postmo to express my indignation.
 
 
I am not Jeff Ricks, sorry.  

 I am beginning to understand.  I hope that you find some way to heal.  Many of us have our own battle wounds, maybe not as deep as yours, but we have them. 

Remember, there are success stories here for those who chose to stay for a while.  And remember that not all mormon families are like yours.  My parents were loving, giving and great examples of good parents.  They were just deceived.  My mother was a strong woman with opinions, who worked hard to help my dad make ends meet. 

This is how I choose to frame my mormon experience.  It worked for a while and then it stopped working.  I have to force myself to look to the future and see 4 children who will have a choice. 

On my way out I shared everything I was reading with my 2 close liberal friends.  One resigned with her DH and 2 children.  The other is inactive with her DH and 4 children.  Another friend from our ward is slowly getting herself out.  And a friend from long ago confided in me and finally found the courage to live her own life away from the church.  I don't think I could have helped them if I called them cowards....fools....and other derogatory names. 

No one knows the physical pain that you have endured because of your specific experience.  But, we have compassion for your pain. 

I hope that you find some way to get to a better, more healthy place with your anger.  You don't have to be Jeff Ricks.  You can help the trembling, doubting members one person at a time.

And I apologize for the personal attacks.  
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Posted: 06 October 2010 12:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 88 ]   

   
 
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This is an interesting thread.  I am a 58 year old woman who left the church 6 years ago.  But it was 8 years ago that I discovered the truth about the whole thing, including its horrific history.  But since I was BIC and an active Mormon for 50 years, it took me over 2 years to finally break away, mainly because of family concerns. 
 
It's very easy to sit at the sidelines and judge people on what they "should" do in any given situation.  But until you're in their shoes, you don't know where they are coming from.  Part of my journey out of Mormonism has been to realize that people need to "live and let live."  People need to have REAL free agency, not the fake kind that Mormonism professes.  And REAL free agency means that they have the right to decide what is best for them.  And it also means that others should respect how they decide to handle things and not JUDGE them for it.
 
I wish I had been strong enough to leave the church in my early 20's.  I already had many issues and questions way back then (including a temple marriage and a horrible feeling from what I discovered there), but my life was too entrenched in Mormonism to allow me to make a bold, independent decision like that.  I was also too concerned with what my very TBM family and friends would think. 
 
I can see this issue from both sides, but to me, the main thing is that people need to be able to decide what is best for them, and not be made to feel like they are making the wrong decision due to someone looking in from the outside.  I was told how to feel, what to think, and what to do for much too long within Mormonism... and I cherish my freedom to decide how to live my life now.  Everyone should be allowed that privilege.
 
 
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Posted: 06 October 2010 12:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 89 ]   

   
 
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I've hesitated on weighing in on this thread, but here it goes.
 
My name is Swearing Elder and I'm a recovering Liberal Mormon. For many years I participated in Mormonism, even while not completely believing in it. I did it because of socialization, because of family ties, and out of fear. I read Sunstone and Dialogue as ways to keep my liberal attitudes at peace with involvement in the church.  
 
How did that work out? Not so well. Those were miserable years. I was angry and depressed and I didn't completely understand why. I simply wasn't willing to take that next step to acknowledge what I already suspected: That the church wasn't true.
 
I empathize with those in that kind of position. I don't mock or scorn them. Everyone has to make their way the best they know how.
 
Do I wish I had exited earlier? Hell yes. Do I wish I had bypassed that Liberal Mormon Phase? Yes.
 
But I didn't. I learned a lot from it about myself, about the church, about human nature.
 
I find it remarkable when people can make a quick exit out of the church. In fact, I even envy them. Nonetheless, for better or worse, that's not the path I took.
 
I know what you've been through. You've told us horrific experiences. Those certainly played a key role in catapulting you out of the church. But not everyone has that kind of catalyst. For some it comes gradually. But if someone is on this site, it's because the light bulb has already gone off and the person is trying to move on from the church.  Respect their process just as others respect yours. Quite simply, there is no one right way to leave the church. 
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Posted: 06 October 2010 01:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 90 ]   

   
 
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I haven't read the whole thread nor the various diversions but in answer to the OP and main question, Why do some stay? Maybe it's because of the same reason some pay ransom when their loved one is kidnapped, or some stay silent when their life is threatened, or some learn not to irritate the boss since he can deny you a job. Many of us stayed far longer than we thought we could stand it because it's not just about US. It's our kids and our parents and our neighbors that pay when we speak out. If it was just a single person that paid the price for expulsion then most of us could take that right on the chin, get back up and take another direct hit, lose everything we own, and recover. It's often not just about one person.
 
Right now I'm at my mom's house and surrounded by so many damn LDS postors, pictures, books, cross stitched sayin's and bullshit that I am nearly suffocating. My mom is needing my time and help and I am biting my tongue, measuring my words, and carefully avoiding all the hair trigger landmines that are planted around LDS homes and minds.  Miracle of Forgiveness, Journal of Discourses, even a book by that sick bastard Boyd KKK Packer is on the shelf and I want to just load the whole piss pile into a dumpster and douse it with gasoline and burn it to ashes.
 
But my mom is my mom. She's delusionally connected to every part of hte church. If I disturb that sugary illusion in the slightest I will hurt her and then be villified by not just my siblings but all their offspring and a whole town of folks who would sooner chase me out with pitchforks than let me disturb my sweet mothers ideals.
 
I've weighed the possible outcomes a million times if I dared speak up. I've played it out in my mind and hated myself for my silence when I saw injustice and ignorance at the hands of my LDS family and neighbors. I'm angry and sick of it and itching to just do something but then I think about the people who need this message most and realize that they would reject me, reject the message, and be even more sure of their rightness by  the mere fact that I disagree. Mormons love the martyr position and the minute one of us cries foul they get to cry "PERSECUTED!!" and it's a lose/lose. There's no win in this case.  So I smile pretty and sneak off and bitch and whine on Postmo. Call me a coward.  Come and look in my sweet mama's eyes and tell me you could do differently.


   


Posted: 06 October 2010 01:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 91 ]   

   
 
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Keep Sweet,
I agree with others...you are no different than the church.  It's only black or white to you.  You're still young and have a LOT to learn.  I feel sorry for you, I really do.  I'm just glad you aren't married and have kids yet.

Before you judge me, I have already officially resigned.  I, like you, got up and left the church without hesitation.  Luckily, my TBM wife has been wonderful.  My kids no longer attend.  I am very fortunate...but most aren't so lucky.  I would never spew the kind of crap you have to others.  My brother committed suicide, who happened to be a gay mormon.  Don't tell me how I should be feeling.

You have a lot to learn.  Grow up.

ZelphEsteem


   


Posted: 06 October 2010 01:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 92 ]   

   
 
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I dont' really have a place on this thread (or do I) as I stopped going to church 18 years ago, I didn't have any experience in Liberal Mormonism.
 
Here's what I do know - the talk in question has infuriated a lot of us, most of us I would say.  I thought I had gotten past the feelings I had over Prop 8 which led me to resign 2 years ago.  No, though, I have felt physically ill over the last few days and filled with the type of anger I hear Keep Sweet expressing.  Hatred, you know, at the church and everyone who runs it and keeps it going. 
 
And I am a coward.  I work locally with several gay-rights groups.  I'm vocally supportive of gay rights - locally.  I have attended protests and rallies - locally.  I would say anyone who knows me, locally, knows what I'm about here in the Blue State of Illinois.  However, I cannot bring myself to say a word to my family or my TBM friends about it.  Aside from being infuriated at the church this leaves me being really mad with myself too. 
 
I'm just sayin', let's just give everyone (Keep Sweet) the benefit of the doubt and give ourselves a few days to calm down over this.  The combination of youth suicides last week followed by such an insensitive statement followed by TBM rhetoric - it's beyond infuriating.
 
Well, I wish I could be (will be) as brave as some of you have been this week.  I wrote my letter telling the church to eff off after Prop 8, but otherwise take the path living well is the best revenge.  I don't know if it does any good or not.
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Posted: 06 October 2010 02:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 93 ]   

   
 
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Keep Sweet,

Every now and then something related to the church will come up that really sets me off emotionally and I want to get my family out asap and never step foot in a chapel again. The last time this happened was about a month and a half ago, and the way I reacted did some damage to my relationship with my wife. None of the damage was irreversible, and things have improved, but I probably could have avoided it if I had not reacted so emotionally.

Perhaps the greatest thing I have learned thus far in my disaffection from the church is that the opposite of black-and-white thinking is not different black-and-white thinking, it is thinking is shades of grey.

There is virtually* nothing that is black-and-white. Everything is a mix of good and bad. Me, you, our parents, everyone we have ever met, every corporation, church, union, political party - everything is a mix of good and bad.

*I had to say "virtually" because if I said "nothing is black-and-white" that would be a black-and-white statement by itself. Maybe there are some things that are black-and-white, but pretty much everything is a mix of good and bad.
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AWESOME!!!!  How General Authorities Eat a Reese’s Butter Cup.  
Posted: 06 July 2013 06:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Jeff Ricks
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How General Authorities Eat a Reeses Butter Cup. 
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qDPi4buduY0 
 
 
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When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine


   


Posted: 06 July 2013 07:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Reuben
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that was AWESOME!!!!
 
as BKP instructed, I will eat my Reese's as we have heretofore been instructed, in the time honored method!
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“Please! This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let’s not bicker and argue over who killed who.”  Gordon B. Hinkley, at the dedication of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, quoting the King of Swamp Castle, from Monty Python’s Holy Grail.


   


Posted: 06 July 2013 07:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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You will eat your Reese's Peanut Butter Cup only after you finish cleaning the Ward bathrooms and vacuuming the halls and rooms, till then, it's only Reese's Pieces for every worker bee skipping another healthy meal under the LDS trance.
 
             

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Posted: 06 July 2013 07:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
NoMorKulAde
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Better counsel from the brethren than we usually get. Two thumbs up on "How to Eat a Reeses."
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The Gospel according to Mormonism.  Making perfect sense since NEVER!


   


Posted: 06 July 2013 08:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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smithandthewestons
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This guy is a master, a true poet. Bravo.
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“Superman is cooler than God”-Bryan Hitch


   


Posted: 06 July 2013 09:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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DrW
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We have been truly edified by the Brethren.
 
We now await their divinely inspired guidance regarding proper and authorized means of the partaking of Reeses Pieces. 
 
Continuing revelation regarding these important decisions in life, helping us to make the right choices to keep us on the sure pathway to the proper enjoyment of celestial peanut butter and chocolate, withinn the bounds the Lord has set for his children,  is truly a wonderful thing. 
 


   


Posted: 06 July 2013 10:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Freya
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And I sit through another General Conference feeling inadequate.  Once again, I fall short of what is expected of me.  How do I live with my secret shame?  Here's hoping no-one ever guesses that I can't stand peanut butter cups.  Reese's or otherwise.
 
Do I need to confess my sin to the Bishop?
 
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Posted: 06 July 2013 10:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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smithandthewestons
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DrW:
Continuing revelation regarding these important decisions in life, helping us to make the right choices to keep us on the sure pathway to the proper enjoyment of celestial peanut butter and chocolate, withinn the bounds the Lord has set for his children,  is truly a wonderful thing. 
 
 Mmmmmmmm. I'd bear my testimony to THAT. May we all find a cupful of salvation through Reesus Christ.
 
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“Superman is cooler than God”-Bryan Hitch


   


Posted: 06 July 2013 12:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Aleut
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  Hilarious!
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“I don’t object to the concept of a deity, but I’m baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.”—Amy Farrah Fowler, The Big Bang Theory*
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*All comments, statements, opinions, suggestions, and information expressed, or quotes cited, represent the exclusive viewpoint of Aleut at that point in time and are NOT meant to compel or represent agreement by the reader. Aleut will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use.


   


Posted: 07 July 2013 08:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Schyzm
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that made my morning.  

   


Posted: 07 July 2013 08:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
Iron Chancellor
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Ok. I confess. This is the true reason for my apostacy.  I've always enjoyed poking the middle part of the Reeses out and eating it and then eating the donut of chocolate and peanut butter. I know this is not the approved way but it is my way.  The temptation was just too great.  I chose peanut butter and chocolate over the CK.  My bad.
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Posted: 07 July 2013 09:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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They await the return of E.T. who took all the Reese's pieces back to Kolob.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 07 July 2013 10:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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smithandthewestons
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Tessa:
They await the return of E.T. who took all the Reese's pieces back to Kolob.
 
 You didn't know Steven Spielberg was Mormon?
 
 
 
 

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“Superman is cooler than God”-Bryan Hitch


   


Posted: 07 July 2013 05:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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4thNephite
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I swear the ability to appreciate this video *almost* makes up for all the time spent suffering through interminable conference talks. Brilliantly done.
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Posted: 07 July 2013 08:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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      Now we just need the Mormon Tabernacle Choir singing the perennial favorite "Oh How Lovely Was the Chocolate." 

   


Posted: 07 July 2013 11:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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carsonhill
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Freya:
And I sit through another General Conference feeling inadequate.  Once again, I fall short of what is expected of me.  How do I live with my secret shame?  Here's hoping no-one ever guesses that I can't stand peanut butter cups.  Reese's or otherwise.
 
Do I need to confess my sin to the Bishop?
 
 
 well said


   


Posted: 08 July 2013 09:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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I showed this to my wife last night. She didn't find it offensive at all, but did think the impressions were spot on and funny. 

   


            
 
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“You’ll always be a Mormon”  
Posted: 16 June 2013 11:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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barelythere
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So the other day, I was spending a bit of time with my youngest sister, who is only 10, and my Mother was sitting close by.  I can't remember how the question or statement was even provoked, but it started with me having to say "I am not a Mormon" out loud. In which my Mother replied "You will always be a Mormon as long as your records are within the church" . . . .That made me stop for a minute and I repeated myself "No, Mom, I am NOT a Mormon, I don't believe in the church and I never will" she continued to argue with me and say that I was and always will be since my records are still there. I eventually just said "Ok, I'll get my records removed" and then she just rolled her eyes and began her rant about her distaste for my decisions and how I am nothing that she had hoped I would be. . .  whatever. 
 
Anyway, so point being.  Originally I wasn't going to have my names removed immediatly after moving out of my parents home.  I haven't felt it necessary yet because it's not like it's wreaking havoc on my mind everyday, having my records still in the church. . . and not to mention so far no one has bothered me here. I haven't gotten love bombed or cookies (Damnit!)  I was going to just let things lay low for a bit and only make that move if someone contacted me once I moved into Canada, or once I found that it would bring me more closure.  
 
My best friend who just had her name removed said that it hasn't brought her any closure, in fact her very TBM family will soon find out and it's just causing more grief and hurt feelings than before. 
 
I don't want to be called a Mormon, I don't want people to try and tell me I am, but I don't want to make a decision so quickly and then either regret it or not be able to bask in the joy that it has brought because they timing is off.
 
What do you think? 
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Posted: 16 June 2013 11:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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I was born mormon raised mormon nd thus I will always be mormon. It doesn't mean that I believe follow or practice the lies and deception, however. I simply state that I have graduated.
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Posted: 16 June 2013 12:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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PJ
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Why resign as opposed to just remaining estranged from the Church?  Well, the way I see it, keeping the membership is like keeping one foot in the door and never completely stepping out.  To me resigning is actually showing them that I have the authority as to whom I will associate my name with.  To me it's not validating any kind of authority on their part as they don't have any.  They only have authority if I give it to them.
Personally, I think being able to say that you have resigned has a much deeper impact than simply saying you don't attend or associate with the Church anymore.  To members of the Church they would just look upon this as being less active or in-active with a possibility of being re-activated in the future.  But when they hear that you have resigned, well, it's an entirely different matter.  It's a much truer statement that you have really left the Church behind.
Honestly, I wouldn't be able to go back to the Church and sit there listening to all the lies and feel uncomfortable.  How could I knowing what I know?  There's absolutely no question in my mind that the LDS Church is a fraud, so why would I want to continue to support it by allowing my name to be associated with it?
In the end though, it has to be a personal choice.  What's best for you - the individual.
 
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Posted: 16 June 2013 12:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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smithandthewestons
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PJ:
Why resign as opposed to just remaining estranged from the Church?  Well, the way I see it, keeping the membership is like keeping one foot in the door and never completely stepping out.  To me resigning is actually showing them that I have the authority as to whom I will associate my name with.
 
 That's a good point. Personally, I resigned because I view my life almost like a story in a book and I felt the need to close that chapter and I figured that was the best way of doing it. I don't regret it at all but everyone has their preferences.
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Posted: 16 June 2013 03:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Heretic
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Resigning is not a sure-fire way of getting Mormons to leave you alone. There are still missionaries out there, and they probably view a former Mormon as an easier target than someone who was never a Mormon. There wouldn't be as many things they would need to teach a former Mormon.
There is no real defense against tracting missionaries. I guess you could get a large dog. 

   


Posted: 16 June 2013 03:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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I was definitely raised Mormon and a lot of the training has stuck.  A part of me will never forget how to speak Mormon-ese, and that means something; there's a basic core, or kernel that will never change.  Plus I liked my Mormon upbringing, except for the sex I missed out on.
 
For the me the transition was easy: I became a Mormon-Atheist.  So that in situations like yours, should someone tell me, "You'll always be a Mormon!", I agree with them and say, "Yep, I'm a Mormon-Atheist, the best of both worlds!"  And then if they're silly enough to continue on with their theme, it's a pure loser for them.  You can agree to all the good things that Mormonism means, but without their provably silly ghawd.  And since it's just words and opinions, it usually never means all that much. 


   


Posted: 16 June 2013 06:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Quartersawn
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For 50 years many people didn't know I was LDS when I was TBM, and I was very active (RM, Temple Marriage, 30+ years temple worker), I was just liberal in my acceptance of others and never pushy about being LDS.
 
Many people don't ask about my religion. If it comes to that point I honestly tell them I am not a Mormon. (I've not resigned, but in no way do I believe JS, BoM etc.) I don't feel I'm lying to them just because some computer has my name in it.  My TBM DW and 'bishop' know exactly where I stand and that my name is on the LDS records only so my wife isn't considered a part-member family... meaning mishy's would drop by and HP farts would be her HTs. period. 
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Posted: 16 June 2013 08:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Youngsinglerunning
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Here is my take. 
 
I was raised a Mormon. That is my life. That is who I am. It's the only life I have known. I never really wanted to leave the church i never really wanted to join. I was happy as a Mormon. I remembered how comforting it was to have instant friends. You get to live very simply. It's a magical place where you are promised a Happy Ever After. Eventually Santa takes off his beard and all that left was a fat greasy man with nacho breath. You can still wait for presents to appear under the tree, or you can go out a buy yourself an XBOX... Or maybe you can go the store buy your XBOX , wrap it, and stuff it under the tree marked "From Santa". Either way you got what you wanted so what does it matter how you got there?      
 
  So you keep your records in the church to make them happy OR you take your records out to piss them off!  Either way it's for them.  Do it for you.      
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Posted: 17 June 2013 07:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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True to the Truth
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barelythere:
 whatever.
 
That's the spirit!
 
It sounds like the only reason you're considering removing your records is to make this rhetorical point with your mom.  You don't sound ready to do this, and I suggest doing nothing that you're not ready for.
 
IIRC, you're a teenager.  "Whatever" is a perfectly fine way for you to discard an argument. 
 
tttt


   


Posted: 17 June 2013 08:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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People are all over the map on this topic.  Some say you should resign to show the church it has no power over you.  Some say that the act of resigning is an acknowledgement that the church has power over you.
 
Mormonism has been a part of your life, and resigning won't change that.  Sending a resignation letter, in and of itself, won't make you feel better about mormonism or solve family friction.  So I'd say that the act of resigning has whatever significane you place on it.
 
If you want to resign, for you and you alone, do it.  If you don't want to resign, for you and you alone, don't do it.  If you don't know what you really want, forget it for awhile.  Nothing has to be done right now.  Or even tomorrow.   
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

Phillip K. Dick


   


Posted: 17 June 2013 09:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
NoMorKulAde
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When I decided I wasn't a member anymore, that's when I resigned. I officially did it two years later largely because I didn't want the church to keep trying to hunt me and my family down to reactivate us and because I didn't want them to keep counting us in their millions of members membership records. I know that at tithing settlement my wife and I will no longer appear on our parents info as their sealed children. I suspect this will open old wounds, but it had to be done in order for us to move on and be who we need to be. Take your time and make sure when you do it its truly the best alternative for you. Good luck!
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The Gospel according to Mormonism.  Making perfect sense since NEVER!


   


Posted: 17 June 2013 10:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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peace out
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Just don't give them your cash (Closure of the wallet/purse) that will show them!
Spend your tithing money on somthing special for yourself.


   


Posted: 17 June 2013 10:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
Celestial Wedgie
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Barely There, it's really up to you.  I kind of wince at the thought of you doing this partly to make a point to your mom.  I agree with the other posters: make your decision for you.
 
And there's no rush.  It's not like there's a risk of the church suddenly becoming true in the next few months.


   


Posted: 17 June 2013 11:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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barelythere
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Thank you all for all of the advice and insight! It has been very helpful! 
 
Like I said before. Rushing to have my name removed from the church records really hasn't been on my radar. It doesn't matter that much to me as of right now. It's not a cloud over my head or a constant thougth in my mind. . .   I'm not being bothered by the members and no one has thus far tried to re-activate me. 
 
The fact that being referred to as a Mormon is so insluting to me is enough indication that maybe I need to do more soul searching and find more peace. Honestly I don't like the thought that because I was born into a cult that I will always be of that cult. I don't ever want to be reffered to as a Mormon again.  That's like calling someone a Prostitute or Stripper after they have left that behind them in their past. 
 
Having my name removed is a really big deal, and since I am only 18 and I am very aware that my brain is only concerned about the "now" for this situation I think it's best to put it on the shelf for now and revisit it every once and a while. . . it isn't something that I want to take lightly. I know the chances of me ever returning back to TSCC is slimmer than slim.  I am saving the action of having my name removed as the last step I need to take to be whole. . . . and currently I have too much damage to take that step. 
 
Thanks again for the support and advice! I love you guys! 
 Signature
Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn.”
- Ben Franklin


   


Posted: 17 June 2013 12:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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PJ
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smithandthewestons:
PJ:
Why resign as opposed to just remaining estranged from the Church?  Well, the way I see it, keeping the membership is like keeping one foot in the door and never completely stepping out.  To me resigning is actually showing them that I have the authority as to whom I will associate my name with.
 
 That's a good point. Personally, I resigned because I view my life almost like a story in a book and I felt the need to close that chapter and I figured that was the best way of doing it. I don't regret it at all but everyone has their preferences.
 
That's right.  Everyone has their preferences.  As I said, in the end it has to be a personal choice.  For me, I wish I had resigned over thirty years ago but that's me.  In fact, I wish I'd never joined.  Yes, I learned a lot and had some wonderful experiences but that's part of life whether in a church or not.
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If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people. -  Dr. Gregory House.

There’s a time for diplomacy, a time for plainness and then there’s a time to just let it rip.
- Peter Lindberg Jensen.

The most rewarding thing in life is to live authentically.
- Peter Lindberg Jensen.

There’s nothing like looking through the door of reality and seeing what’s there. How can this not be more interesting than looking through the door of ignorance and seeing nothing?
- Peter Lindberg Jensen.


   


Posted: 17 June 2013 02:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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smithandthewestons
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PJ:
Yes, I learned a lot and had some wonderful experiences but that's part of life whether in a church or not.
 
 That's another great point. I enjoyed getting to see the Philippines and I am grateful that I got to see true poverty and now know why it's important to help those in need, but I could have done that without the dogma and personal pain of the church.
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“Superman is cooler than God”-Bryan Hitch


   


Posted: 17 June 2013 05:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
Celestial Wedgie
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barelythere:
Thank you all for all of the advice and insight! It has been very helpful! 
 
Like I said before. Rushing to have my name removed from the church records really hasn't been on my radar. It doesn't matter that much to me as of right now. It's not a cloud over my head or a constant thougth in my mind. . .   I'm not being bothered by the members and no one has thus far tried to re-activate me. 
 
The fact that being referred to as a Mormon is so insluting to me is enough indication that maybe I need to do more soul searching and find more peace. Honestly I don't like the thought that because I was born into a cult that I will always be of that cult. I don't ever want to be reffered to as a Mormon again.  That's like calling someone a Prostitute or Stripper after they have left that behind them in their past. 
 
Having my name removed is a really big deal, and since I am only 18 and I am very aware that my brain is only concerned about the "now" for this situation I think it's best to put it on the shelf for now and revisit it every once and a while. . . it isn't something that I want to take lightly. I know the chances of me ever returning back to TSCC is slimmer than slim.  I am saving the action of having my name removed as the last step I need to take to be whole. . . . and currently I have too much damage to take that step. 
 
Thanks again for the support and advice! I love you guys! 
 
    I love this.  I have this image of you--sometime in the future--resigning as a ceremony of being true to yourself.  I don't even know what it might symbolize to you, but I think it's great the way you're moving forward at your own pace.  Good luck from an older guy who knows you don't need my approval, which, of course, you have anyway!


   


            
 
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“You’ll always be a Mormon”  
Posted: 16 June 2013 11:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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barelythere
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So the other day, I was spending a bit of time with my youngest sister, who is only 10, and my Mother was sitting close by.  I can't remember how the question or statement was even provoked, but it started with me having to say "I am not a Mormon" out loud. In which my Mother replied "You will always be a Mormon as long as your records are within the church" . . . .That made me stop for a minute and I repeated myself "No, Mom, I am NOT a Mormon, I don't believe in the church and I never will" she continued to argue with me and say that I was and always will be since my records are still there. I eventually just said "Ok, I'll get my records removed" and then she just rolled her eyes and began her rant about her distaste for my decisions and how I am nothing that she had hoped I would be. . .  whatever. 
 
Anyway, so point being.  Originally I wasn't going to have my names removed immediatly after moving out of my parents home.  I haven't felt it necessary yet because it's not like it's wreaking havoc on my mind everyday, having my records still in the church. . . and not to mention so far no one has bothered me here. I haven't gotten love bombed or cookies (Damnit!)  I was going to just let things lay low for a bit and only make that move if someone contacted me once I moved into Canada, or once I found that it would bring me more closure.  
 
My best friend who just had her name removed said that it hasn't brought her any closure, in fact her very TBM family will soon find out and it's just causing more grief and hurt feelings than before. 
 
I don't want to be called a Mormon, I don't want people to try and tell me I am, but I don't want to make a decision so quickly and then either regret it or not be able to bask in the joy that it has brought because they timing is off.
 
What do you think? 
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Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn.”
- Ben Franklin


   


Posted: 16 June 2013 11:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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I was born mormon raised mormon nd thus I will always be mormon. It doesn't mean that I believe follow or practice the lies and deception, however. I simply state that I have graduated.
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Posted: 16 June 2013 12:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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PJ
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Why resign as opposed to just remaining estranged from the Church?  Well, the way I see it, keeping the membership is like keeping one foot in the door and never completely stepping out.  To me resigning is actually showing them that I have the authority as to whom I will associate my name with.  To me it's not validating any kind of authority on their part as they don't have any.  They only have authority if I give it to them.
Personally, I think being able to say that you have resigned has a much deeper impact than simply saying you don't attend or associate with the Church anymore.  To members of the Church they would just look upon this as being less active or in-active with a possibility of being re-activated in the future.  But when they hear that you have resigned, well, it's an entirely different matter.  It's a much truer statement that you have really left the Church behind.
Honestly, I wouldn't be able to go back to the Church and sit there listening to all the lies and feel uncomfortable.  How could I knowing what I know?  There's absolutely no question in my mind that the LDS Church is a fraud, so why would I want to continue to support it by allowing my name to be associated with it?
In the end though, it has to be a personal choice.  What's best for you - the individual.
 
 Signature
If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people. -  Dr. Gregory House.

There’s a time for diplomacy, a time for plainness and then there’s a time to just let it rip.
- Peter Lindberg Jensen.

The most rewarding thing in life is to live authentically.
- Peter Lindberg Jensen.

There’s nothing like looking through the door of reality and seeing what’s there. How can this not be more interesting than looking through the door of ignorance and seeing nothing?
- Peter Lindberg Jensen.


   


Posted: 16 June 2013 12:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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smithandthewestons
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PJ:
Why resign as opposed to just remaining estranged from the Church?  Well, the way I see it, keeping the membership is like keeping one foot in the door and never completely stepping out.  To me resigning is actually showing them that I have the authority as to whom I will associate my name with.
 
 That's a good point. Personally, I resigned because I view my life almost like a story in a book and I felt the need to close that chapter and I figured that was the best way of doing it. I don't regret it at all but everyone has their preferences.
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“Superman is cooler than God”-Bryan Hitch


   


Posted: 16 June 2013 03:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Heretic
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Resigning is not a sure-fire way of getting Mormons to leave you alone. There are still missionaries out there, and they probably view a former Mormon as an easier target than someone who was never a Mormon. There wouldn't be as many things they would need to teach a former Mormon.
There is no real defense against tracting missionaries. I guess you could get a large dog. 

   


Posted: 16 June 2013 03:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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I was definitely raised Mormon and a lot of the training has stuck.  A part of me will never forget how to speak Mormon-ese, and that means something; there's a basic core, or kernel that will never change.  Plus I liked my Mormon upbringing, except for the sex I missed out on.
 
For the me the transition was easy: I became a Mormon-Atheist.  So that in situations like yours, should someone tell me, "You'll always be a Mormon!", I agree with them and say, "Yep, I'm a Mormon-Atheist, the best of both worlds!"  And then if they're silly enough to continue on with their theme, it's a pure loser for them.  You can agree to all the good things that Mormonism means, but without their provably silly ghawd.  And since it's just words and opinions, it usually never means all that much. 


   


Posted: 16 June 2013 06:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Quartersawn
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For 50 years many people didn't know I was LDS when I was TBM, and I was very active (RM, Temple Marriage, 30+ years temple worker), I was just liberal in my acceptance of others and never pushy about being LDS.
 
Many people don't ask about my religion. If it comes to that point I honestly tell them I am not a Mormon. (I've not resigned, but in no way do I believe JS, BoM etc.) I don't feel I'm lying to them just because some computer has my name in it.  My TBM DW and 'bishop' know exactly where I stand and that my name is on the LDS records only so my wife isn't considered a part-member family... meaning mishy's would drop by and HP farts would be her HTs. period. 
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Why would you consider a man a prophet whose morals are worse than your own? Having claimed to commune with deity, be visited by angels and receive revelations, should he not be held to a higher standard? —me


   


Posted: 16 June 2013 08:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Youngsinglerunning
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Here is my take. 
 
I was raised a Mormon. That is my life. That is who I am. It's the only life I have known. I never really wanted to leave the church i never really wanted to join. I was happy as a Mormon. I remembered how comforting it was to have instant friends. You get to live very simply. It's a magical place where you are promised a Happy Ever After. Eventually Santa takes off his beard and all that left was a fat greasy man with nacho breath. You can still wait for presents to appear under the tree, or you can go out a buy yourself an XBOX... Or maybe you can go the store buy your XBOX , wrap it, and stuff it under the tree marked "From Santa". Either way you got what you wanted so what does it matter how you got there?      
 
  So you keep your records in the church to make them happy OR you take your records out to piss them off!  Either way it's for them.  Do it for you.      
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I have just begun my Adventures into the secular world. And I’m absolutely clueless.  Drinking, Sex, and skirts above the knee:P Check out my blog to hear my story.  It keeps me sane and it’s anonymous
http://breakingmormon.blogspot.com/


   


Posted: 17 June 2013 07:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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True to the Truth
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barelythere:
 whatever.
 
That's the spirit!
 
It sounds like the only reason you're considering removing your records is to make this rhetorical point with your mom.  You don't sound ready to do this, and I suggest doing nothing that you're not ready for.
 
IIRC, you're a teenager.  "Whatever" is a perfectly fine way for you to discard an argument. 
 
tttt


   


Posted: 17 June 2013 08:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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People are all over the map on this topic.  Some say you should resign to show the church it has no power over you.  Some say that the act of resigning is an acknowledgement that the church has power over you.
 
Mormonism has been a part of your life, and resigning won't change that.  Sending a resignation letter, in and of itself, won't make you feel better about mormonism or solve family friction.  So I'd say that the act of resigning has whatever significane you place on it.
 
If you want to resign, for you and you alone, do it.  If you don't want to resign, for you and you alone, don't do it.  If you don't know what you really want, forget it for awhile.  Nothing has to be done right now.  Or even tomorrow.   
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

Phillip K. Dick


   


Posted: 17 June 2013 09:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
NoMorKulAde
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When I decided I wasn't a member anymore, that's when I resigned. I officially did it two years later largely because I didn't want the church to keep trying to hunt me and my family down to reactivate us and because I didn't want them to keep counting us in their millions of members membership records. I know that at tithing settlement my wife and I will no longer appear on our parents info as their sealed children. I suspect this will open old wounds, but it had to be done in order for us to move on and be who we need to be. Take your time and make sure when you do it its truly the best alternative for you. Good luck!
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The Gospel according to Mormonism.  Making perfect sense since NEVER!


   


Posted: 17 June 2013 10:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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peace out
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Just don't give them your cash (Closure of the wallet/purse) that will show them!
Spend your tithing money on somthing special for yourself.


   


Posted: 17 June 2013 10:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
Celestial Wedgie
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Barely There, it's really up to you.  I kind of wince at the thought of you doing this partly to make a point to your mom.  I agree with the other posters: make your decision for you.
 
And there's no rush.  It's not like there's a risk of the church suddenly becoming true in the next few months.


   


Posted: 17 June 2013 11:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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barelythere
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Thank you all for all of the advice and insight! It has been very helpful! 
 
Like I said before. Rushing to have my name removed from the church records really hasn't been on my radar. It doesn't matter that much to me as of right now. It's not a cloud over my head or a constant thougth in my mind. . .   I'm not being bothered by the members and no one has thus far tried to re-activate me. 
 
The fact that being referred to as a Mormon is so insluting to me is enough indication that maybe I need to do more soul searching and find more peace. Honestly I don't like the thought that because I was born into a cult that I will always be of that cult. I don't ever want to be reffered to as a Mormon again.  That's like calling someone a Prostitute or Stripper after they have left that behind them in their past. 
 
Having my name removed is a really big deal, and since I am only 18 and I am very aware that my brain is only concerned about the "now" for this situation I think it's best to put it on the shelf for now and revisit it every once and a while. . . it isn't something that I want to take lightly. I know the chances of me ever returning back to TSCC is slimmer than slim.  I am saving the action of having my name removed as the last step I need to take to be whole. . . . and currently I have too much damage to take that step. 
 
Thanks again for the support and advice! I love you guys! 
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Posted: 17 June 2013 12:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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PJ
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smithandthewestons:
PJ:
Why resign as opposed to just remaining estranged from the Church?  Well, the way I see it, keeping the membership is like keeping one foot in the door and never completely stepping out.  To me resigning is actually showing them that I have the authority as to whom I will associate my name with.
 
 That's a good point. Personally, I resigned because I view my life almost like a story in a book and I felt the need to close that chapter and I figured that was the best way of doing it. I don't regret it at all but everyone has their preferences.
 
That's right.  Everyone has their preferences.  As I said, in the end it has to be a personal choice.  For me, I wish I had resigned over thirty years ago but that's me.  In fact, I wish I'd never joined.  Yes, I learned a lot and had some wonderful experiences but that's part of life whether in a church or not.
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- Peter Lindberg Jensen.


   


Posted: 17 June 2013 02:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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smithandthewestons
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PJ:
Yes, I learned a lot and had some wonderful experiences but that's part of life whether in a church or not.
 
 That's another great point. I enjoyed getting to see the Philippines and I am grateful that I got to see true poverty and now know why it's important to help those in need, but I could have done that without the dogma and personal pain of the church.
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Posted: 17 June 2013 05:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
Celestial Wedgie
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barelythere:
Thank you all for all of the advice and insight! It has been very helpful! 
 
Like I said before. Rushing to have my name removed from the church records really hasn't been on my radar. It doesn't matter that much to me as of right now. It's not a cloud over my head or a constant thougth in my mind. . .   I'm not being bothered by the members and no one has thus far tried to re-activate me. 
 
The fact that being referred to as a Mormon is so insluting to me is enough indication that maybe I need to do more soul searching and find more peace. Honestly I don't like the thought that because I was born into a cult that I will always be of that cult. I don't ever want to be reffered to as a Mormon again.  That's like calling someone a Prostitute or Stripper after they have left that behind them in their past. 
 
Having my name removed is a really big deal, and since I am only 18 and I am very aware that my brain is only concerned about the "now" for this situation I think it's best to put it on the shelf for now and revisit it every once and a while. . . it isn't something that I want to take lightly. I know the chances of me ever returning back to TSCC is slimmer than slim.  I am saving the action of having my name removed as the last step I need to take to be whole. . . . and currently I have too much damage to take that step. 
 
Thanks again for the support and advice! I love you guys! 
 
    I love this.  I have this image of you--sometime in the future--resigning as a ceremony of being true to yourself.  I don't even know what it might symbolize to you, but I think it's great the way you're moving forward at your own pace.  Good luck from an older guy who knows you don't need my approval, which, of course, you have anyway!


   


            
 
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So… I went to church this Sunday…  
Posted: 12 June 2013 07:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
TeenApostate
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Wow. All I can say is wow. Young Women is a joke. Guess what the lesson was on? Our feminity.  What an outdated archaich concept. So the teacher says that's its our duty to get married as soon as possible, support our husband thru school and have six children. Oh and that careers for women were Satanic. And that these women are selfish. Now, I intend on earning a PHD. And not getting married or having kids till I graduate. I think that it's morally wrong for women to be told not to pursue careers. All the girls in my class were agreeing with the teacher. I said but an education is important. And the teacher says that fulfilling our divine uty was more important. Of course that's all bull. But I feel bad for those who bought it hook line and sinker. Anyway, I told my mom YW was a waste of time, and she says maybe debate is a waste of time. This pissed me off. She says that college isn't everything, and that I will want to have kids, etc etc. but I don't. Urgh. I am joinin debate to load up on extracurriculars and to get the hell away from the idea that YBU is an option (where we visit each yr) and goto a normal college.  My mom of course thinks that's stupid and at one point said that other colleges were horrible places and not the Lords college. I said that everyone goes to ByU to get married which is true. Ahhhhhhhhhh the argument is going in circles. Anyone have any good arguments?
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Posted: 12 June 2013 07:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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Good arguments are conducted by opponents with equal footing.  If your mom has control of the college purse strings, it's not going to be much of an argument.  We'v e had PostMo high schoolers be told that if they go to the Y, all expenses will be paid, but if they go anywhere else, they have to pay their own way.  Pretty chickenshit, huh?  But of course, the TBM parents know it's for the best.
 
Sure, you see the idiocy of putting marriage and children ahead of personal growth and education, but TBMs can't.  Or won't...
 
My youngest son just graduated from SFSU.  His girlfriend is a year behind him.  He's going to work for a year and make life a bit better for them financially, and then they'll flood graduate schools with applications and figure out what to do based on who accepts them.  They are not married, they are equal partners and they are atheists.  
 
Want me to ask him if he has any younger, single friends? 
 


   


Posted: 12 June 2013 08:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Youngsinglerunning
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She means well.  BUY is like a big all seeing mom.  That's why she want you to go.  Because someone will always be there to watch you. Your teachers, your roommates, your friends. It's fun but man is it Mormon!
 
You might like this story. It's on my Blog and it is affectionately called "POOP monsters!"
 
http://breakingmormon.blogspot.com/2013/04/poop-mosters.html
 
 Signature
I have just begun my Adventures into the secular world. And I’m absolutely clueless.  Drinking, Sex, and skirts above the knee:P Check out my blog to hear my story.  It keeps me sane and it’s anonymous
http://breakingmormon.blogspot.com/


   


Posted: 13 June 2013 05:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Dogzilla Joy
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What the hell does any of that have to do with your femininity? 
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Formerly known as “Dogzilla.”


   


Posted: 13 June 2013 05:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Dogzilla Joy
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As far as good arguments with your mom: Don't bother. 
 
However. You are in control of how you will choose to spend your life after age 18. And there is no reason you can't start setting yourself up for that now. You are right where I was when I was your age -- and mind you, I stalked out of that particular lesson in a huff, after arguing with the teacher for about 15 minutes.  Oh yes I did. "#### this, I'm out." LOL 
 
Keep doing those extracurriculars. I'm assuming your grades are awesome, keep that up too. Do well on your standardized exams (SAT/ACT, whathaveyou). Apply for FAFSA in the early spring before you graduate. Apply to colleges you are interested in the fall of your senior year. Do everything early, so if you don't get exactly what you want, you will have time to come up with a backup plan. If you have an after-school job or something, save up your money so you can pay for the dorm deposits yourself. Plan to finance your schooling by yourself and if your parents kick in some, then call it a bonus; that's just less debt you have to incur. 
 
Your parents may attempt to stop you at every turn. Do not listen to your mom; she's brainwashed and has no idea what she's talking about. Yes, you might want to have kids. But there is no reason whatsoever you will or should do that while you are a college student. That is madness. 
 
Get yourself off to a nice school, live in the dorms, or work part-time and live off-campus with roommates. Get on birth control the minute you arrive at school -- most major universities will have a health clinic where you can get things like birth control and girly-bits exams. Do it. Enjoy yourself. Plan your life for what YOU want. Do not attempt to plan anything in your future that satisfies what someone else wants. Every time you go about setting something up, ask yourself: is this what I want? Or is this what mom/dad/church/yw president/whomever wants? Then do what you want. 
 
Remember: the minute you turn 18, you are responsible for yourself. Plan accordingly. No one else will live your life in your future except you. 
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Posted: 13 June 2013 06:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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The minute you have those "6 kids" you lose your femininity. You become a drudge, cleaning up after everyone else including the husband who finds millions of ways to stay away from home. If the screaming and fighting doesn't get you, the abandonment will. Get your degree and avoid the mess.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 13 June 2013 06:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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kinderhooker
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Another note about college: Since you're most likely going to need loans, be careful in choosing your major. Choose one that will ultimately 1) get you a job and 2) provide sufficient income to pay your student loan payments. Since you're planning on a PhD, I'll bet you've already selected a few likely fields of study. So what's it gonna be?
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“And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations.” Alma 37:3


   


Posted: 13 June 2013 07:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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JonMarshall30
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One Suggestion I have is, once you are out of high school and 18. Get out for the summer. Leave.
 
I worked my first summer after high school in Denali National Park in Alaska.
 
Save most of the money you make and you will be fine. Plus you will get to experience a beautiful place, and meet some great people, some who are experiencing life just like you.
 
here is the website to look and you can find jobs that interest you as well.
 
www.coolworks.com
 
Jon


   


Posted: 13 June 2013 09:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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MormonThink
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My wife told me that when she had a similar lesson, one of the working mothers just left the room and waited outside.   sad 

   


Posted: 13 June 2013 01:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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labguy
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I thought there was supposed to be an improvement in these type of topics in the new curriculum for the youth.  Guess not.
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“To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.”—Thomas Paine


   


Posted: 13 June 2013 03:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Hiker Daddy
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TeenApostate:
Wow. All I can say is wow. Young Women is a joke. Guess what the lesson was on? Our feminity.  What an outdated archaich concept. So the teacher says that's its our duty to get married as soon as possible, support our husband thru school and have six children. Oh and that careers for women were Satanic. And that these women are selfish. Now, I intend on earning a PHD. And not getting married or having kids till I graduate. I think that it's morally wrong for women to be told not to pursue careers. All the girls in my class were agreeing with the teacher. I said but an education is important. And the teacher says that fulfilling our divine uty was more important. Of course that's all bull. But I feel bad for those who bought it hook line and sinker. Anyway, I told my mom YW was a waste of time, and she says maybe debate is a waste of time. This pissed me off. She says that college isn't everything, and that I will want to have kids, etc etc. but I don't. Urgh. I am joinin debate to load up on extracurriculars and to get the hell away from the idea that YBU is an option (where we visit each yr) and goto a normal college.  My mom of course thinks that's stupid and at one point said that other colleges were horrible places and not the Lords college. I said that everyone goes to ByU to get married which is true. Ahhhhhhhhhh the argument is going in circles. Anyone have any good arguments?
 
 You might want to think about the green.  The argument could continue to go in circles because your mom could have a point in green.  Debate is great but I echo Olddog, You are not on equal footing.  Also, arguing for the sake of arguing leads to less than desirable outcomes sometimes.  
 
Is your mom open minded about church issues or about the direction that you want to take your life?  If not, there is no win of you.
 
I think your best approach is to ask pointed questions in class, considering you have to attend.  Does your teacher really think the girls in class are not going to work outside the home?  Given economic realities even those that stay at home will leave to work when the kids are old enough to go to school.  Those that listen to the lesson and avoid college degrees will go to work.  They will.  However, they will go to work at two bit jobs that don't pay anything because they listened in church and blindly believed they could make their way as a stay at home mom exclusively.  Of course the reality is that some women like my wife would pry their eyes out rather than spend years at home watching children.
 
Sometimes the best way to win an argument with a Mormon is by example.  Live a great life.  This is especially true with your mom because you love her.  This conflict you have with your mom isn't going away.  I have been out of the church since about the time you were born and I still have this conflict with my parents.  They don't think I made the right choice. They never will.  Regardless, with time they have come to see that my choices in life led to a host really good things.  I am happy and successful at the goals I set for myself.  
 
Go and get that PhD. Do all the things you want with your life and keep your mom in the loop all the while. Make no apologies for living your life as you choose and try to not accuse your parents for their life choices.  You want mutual respect so start with culturing respect yourself.  Love your parents regardless of their nutty ideas.  They mean no harm.  Don't argue with your mother or any other mormon unless you think that person is actually openminded to have an honest debate.
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Posted: 13 June 2013 03:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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how is this my life
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I bought the plan hook line and sinker.  In my mom's words, college is nice for me but mandatory for her sons who were going to be "breadwinners".  I didn't sweat college.  I went when I could afford it and dropped out when I didn't feel like doing it anymore.
 
Fast forward 18 years after graduation and SURPRISE!  Might be getting a divorce.
 
Had I not dropped out of the workforce and been lax about college, life would still royally suck right now but it would seem do-able.  


   


Posted: 13 June 2013 08:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
Nephi
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Getting an education and a degree or experience in a field that will allow for employment with decent pay is only smart - for any woman. What do you do if your wonderful husband is severely injured, takes sick or is dies? You need the skills to get back into the workforce, don't you? Or is it better to be a 26 year old woman with four kids under 8 years of age and no job skills? Femininity is not outdated, nor is masculinity. It is part of who we are. What is outdated and foolish is trying to conform to what others tell us we 'should be'. Be what you are and get more education if that is what you want. Study hard, get good grades and start pushing for scholarships. Schools like Stanford make sure anyone who can qualify to get accepted can go there - healthy endowments make it possible. Even if you have to start with community college and move up while working, if you want it you will do it, with or without the folks helping.
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Posted: 13 June 2013 09:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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Truth-B-Told
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TeenApostate:
[...]
Our feminity.  What an outdated archaich concept. [...] Anyone have any good arguments?
 
I don't think that femininity per se is an archaic concept, but the Mormon version of it certainly is.
 
"If your Elohim wants me to become a housewife and mother, tell him to come here and command me himself. I haven't received any messages from the vicinity of Kolob about anything, including becoming a mother."

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The above is my view. I respect your right to hold beliefs that differ from mine.
 
If love for others is selfless, why would anyone love his/her own spouse and children more than any other acquaintance?
   
Ayn Rand’s Objectivist morality advocates selfishness. But this “selfishness” is long-term, principled self-interest. People are a combination of the physical and mental, and individuals’ self-interest includes psychological values. Self-interest is not to be reduced to only the physical, such as money. Other people can be of tremendous psychological value (i.e. friends, lovers, children.)
   
 
atlasshrugged.com
What is Objectivism?
Objectivism for Intellectuals


   


Posted: 14 June 2013 10:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
Curious NeverMo
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Here's how I've always looked at it:
 
If you have a uterus and ovaries, you ARE a female.  If you are a female, you ARE feminine.  ...by definition.  How you wish to express that in your dress, mannerisms and your life is YOUR business.  Period. 
 
Everything else is merely other people's limited expectations and, frankly, fear of things that are unconventional.
 
Finally, there's no real reason for anyone to have limited and fearful people running their lives.  


   


Posted: 15 June 2013 11:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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GraciesDaddy
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I didn't read all the responses; just skipped to the end... But hasn't there been some doubt as to the authenticity/validity of Yoo-BOO's accreditation?  Tell Momma you want an education that's going to be worth something!
 
Wherever your interests may lie, you might consider a major in something The Why doesn't offer, just to increase your chances of attending a "normal" college.  Financial aid – despite the republican's efforts – is still available and you can apply for scholarships which particularly address your field of study.  Check out your state-run universities first; they're usually cheaper... And some private colleges have more aid available since they're more expensive.
 
Something tells me your mom doesn't sit down and read Time or Newsweek or even a newspaper, huh?  The War on Women is ramping up; it's getting vicious and I, for one don't care to be on their bad side when they win!  
 
But that's just me. 
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Posted: 15 June 2013 04:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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If you know what degree you want to get, you could start researching which school is best for that particular degree and then use that as leverage to not go to YBU assuming that YBU isn't the best for that program. Alternatively, if you're evenly torn between majors you could check to see if YBU doesn't have one of those majors and pick the one that it doesn't have. On a financial note, I knew a lot of people who would get their generals out of the way at SLCC and then finish their degree elsewhere because it was cheaper that way - this may be a way to save you a year or two from going to YBU and figure out more ways to evade the Y. I didn't go to YBU, but the other private college in Utah took their credits so I assume YBU would too. Hope that helps. 

   


            
 
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Should gay/Lesbians stand up and leave or remain mormon??  
Posted: 31 May 2013 08:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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carsonhill
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Now here at Post mo we have a different breed perhaps.  Likely those who are here and posting may be more at the stage of voicing their beliefs, many whom have left the church; those who don't by nature want to be completely silent etc.. same with ex mo sites..
 
but we've seen recent videos of mormons coming out as gay and remaining mormon.  Just coming out and encouraging others to stay active while gay etc...  
 
Now I'll admit this is a hot little topic but the reason I ask it is recently I've been doing some apartment shopping and that includes searching new houses and rooms.  Today I spoke to a gal I met in a department store and we got talking.  I mentioned I'd been room shopping and that its always interesting.  She said she lives with a guy and is paying rent on a room.  I was curious if she was married to him or dating and she said no because he is gay.  I said oh thats cool. 
 
Then we got talking about alcohol after that and she said she doesn't drink as much cause she doesn't feel comfortable around him and his boyfriend drinking.  When I asked why, she said it's because they are both mormon and practicing, other than the gay/dating thing of course.  I said oh so he is gay and still attending church.  She said yes and that his boyfriend is over all the time but they don't drink and won't accept any of those drinks so she just avoids it around them.  She said they are not rude but they just live the church standards other than being gay. Hugh, I thought..
 
Later I found an add for a room to rent that mentioned gay but mormon so they wanted someone gay friendly that abide by church standards.
 
Just kind of got me thinking.  I am in no position to judge because I am not gay but obviously quite vocal about gay rights because I feel strongly it reflects my rights, as i'm represented in the whole.  Also I am offended that the church fought so hard for something that went against what I'd consider equal rights for all.. that being funding of prop 8 etc..
 
So part of me wants to say that if you are gay and mormon, don't try and live by the church standards and attend church while being gay long term, instead embrace what your church has done and the falty altering of doctrine due to societal pressures it calls "revelations."
 
and leave and explain why you left to not stand for something that lies and covers up...
 
But another argument I hear is that it is good that gay church members are coming open while still being in church cause it encourages others to have the courage to at least do the same, instead of living the deep suppressive alternative, which is horrible.  I mean if it prevents suicide and that type of suppression Id be all for it. 
 
I just still don't like the idea that the church can just adapt (being a flip floper) like its done with blacks etc, and just later say being gay is ok because it would never own up to the bull shit its done.. 
 
But then again this is how the church functions, based on lies isn't it..? LOL..  On one hand I hate that members would support the gay adaption as it progresses because it wouldn't hold the church accountable; on the other hand I want gay members to not be in the dark suppression that hurts them and any outlet of that seems better than the alternative.
 
So is it good gays are coming out while remaining members.  Is that progress of a kind?  or by remaining active members and coming out gay are they feeding the fire that is a deceptive, adaptive organization with a tainted history and pattern of embodying lies and deceit?
 
Any Postmo Gay/Lesbian thoughts welcome as are others, no matter what stage you're in.  What are your thoughts on the matter if any ??


   


Posted: 31 May 2013 09:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Youngsinglerunning
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I'm not gay but i attended a "same sex attraction" conference while at BYU with this guy.    http://www.joshweed.com/  The famous gay guy who married a woman and has a family.  Honestly i wanted to hate him...but he made a choice and in the nature of acceptance i respect his choice.  he loves his wife and it sounds like they have a good thing going.
 
 However there were other couples there where their marriage "worked".  In other-words these Mormon woman convinced themselves they were "happy" and saw lots of therapist.   Then men were also miserable but that is what marriage is all about right???
 
So I am tyring very very hard to respect the idea of people staying Mormon. I want to be open minded. I think if they choose to stay Mormon and it works for them do it.  i hope they are doing it because they like the lifestyle because we all know the sludge of the morg.  In being open-minded it is important to allow people accept people doing thing that make no since to you.   
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Posted: 31 May 2013 09:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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Sorry, I just can't past the fact that the best sex demands the full participation of the available faculties.  Love and lust can and should go hand in hand.  Yeah, I know you can enjoy having just one (usually lust) without the other, but when you get to have both, there is no comparison, after the climax. Prior to, the endorphins are all cooking up a great storm, but after the endorphin fountain closes, and you open your eyes, that's when love makes such a huge difference.  At least that's been my experience.  Sex can be great fun, but loving your sexual partner, and being loved in return, is pretty darn good. 
 
So how does Josh Weed do it?  (And I ask this in the generic, not about him specifically.) I gather that there is the possibility that he is bi, so maybe it's that simple; he can lust after his wife, as well as love her.  But what about a straight gay, (that sounds funny, huh?)  a person with pure same sex attraction.  It makes no sense that a 'pure' gay person can lust after, get hot for, a member of the other sex.  So for the full effect of both the endorphin fountain and that after glow, resting in the arms of the loved one, you have to break a TSCC commandment and lose your ticket to the CK.
 
And that makes no sense, unless you're brain washed.  How can two Mormon gay men be boyfriends?  No sex, of course, but can they kiss?  Can they cuddle?  Can they go to a Gold & Green Ball together?  Can they sit in Sacrament meeting, snuggled together, touching, holding hands?  Logically, they would refuse to live together, just as any two unmarried TBMs in love would avoid such a situation.  But think back when you were dating and how you acted with your boy/girlfriend at church.
 
If I were a bishop (with all the discernment that accompanies the calling) I woud be telling the boys that ghawd has set them a challenge and that he wouldn't have done so unless he had made them strong enough to surmont it.  (Yeah, that really worked well for masturbation...)  Say the guys were in their 20s...  How in the hell could a bishop look them in the eyes and tell them to go their entire lives without the complete fulfillment that love + lust affords?
 
And when is the No Sex Outside of Marriage commandment broken by gays and lesbians?  Can they kiss?  Can they make out, pet, dry hump?  When do gays & lesbian cross the line?  Has TSCC published a standard?
 
That TSCC is getting away with keeping gays paying tithing is a testament to the motivation that is greed.  And if the boys/girls slip up, hey, they just have to repent, try again to keep on the straight and narrow, and keep paying their tithing.  It's all good, from TSCC's point of view.    
 


   


Posted: 01 June 2013 07:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Absent Minded Housewife
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It works for some.   Doesn't work for a whole lot of others.  That one group or the other insists that THIS is the way it should work is where we are off.
I couldn't imagine a marriage where I wasn't sexually attracted to the core of what my spouse is.  But then, the core of what he's made up of is more than male.  Then I don't want marriage without sex as one of the bonds that takes priority.  Others find their intimacy in other arenas of life.
 
What Josh and Lolly Weed have works for them.  Marriage is unique between two people. Sexuality is unique to the person. Religion begins and ends as a personal journey.  Anyone can share or not share these aspects of life and what they do doesn't have to work for me.  It's the discussion of these topics that is important.
I have a friend who is so damned conservative, and religious, and celibate, and so gay and out of the closet.  He's an enigma but right now, his path works for him.  It's not up to me to tell him different.  I don't tell him what to do and think, he doesn't tell me what to do or think.  At the very least who he is has given him that perspective...that he has no right to dictate the terms to a personal life anymore than anyone else does.  
 
 
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Posted: 01 June 2013 08:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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I know a gay single Mormon who is not out of the closet, although I imagine many people suspect he is gay. He has told me of the pain that he suffers. Things would just be worse for him if he came out, so there is no point in him doing it. I asked him why he stays in the church and whether or not he has issues with church doctrine on this matter. He is very unhappy about the church's stance on homosexuality, and it tears him up inside, but he believes the church is true. So he must stay Mormon, and he must stay in the closet.
Stupid church. 

   


Posted: 01 June 2013 09:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
Curious NeverMo
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The simplest but truest answer is they should decide for themselves.  Just like everyone here decided for themselves what they were getting out of it and if that was enough and when it was no longer helpful and if the cost of leaving was too high.  The eleventh article of faith applies to a whole lot of life whether you're LDS or not or gay or straight or whatever.   Don't you think?


   


Posted: 01 June 2013 10:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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At some point...gay members will get mighty tired of "reproduction" stories of Celestialized humans....and not having their significant others as celestial partners in the after life. Their shunning will continue no matter how "sweet" their ward/stake is. They will feel the ostracizing keenly.
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Posted: 01 June 2013 10:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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I've given a lot of thought to this in a way.  As a black man I considered the good it would do to stay in the church.  I thought it might do good for others to see a "good black mormon example".  
 
Although my experience and learning told me the church is not true, I considered "dying to self" and walking the higher road that benefited others.
 
I like what was said above earlier about can they kiss, hold hands, snuggle in sacrament, etc?  This gets to the heart of the problem.  The daily logistics of living in a culture which (at its core) rejects the very nature of who you are.  A unique aspect of yourself that you cannot change. 
 
If you live around cool, weird, loose, democratic Mormons, you might be able to have an awesome experience.  Conversely if you live with ridged, square, uppity Mormons that buy into the doctrine of you being spiritually inferior because of who you are, damn!  What an awful life.
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Posted: 01 June 2013 07:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Curious NeverMo:
The simplest but truest answer is they should decide for themselves.  Just like everyone here decided for themselves what they were getting out of it and if that was enough and when it was no longer helpful and if the cost of leaving was too high.  The eleventh article of faith applies to a whole lot of life whether you're LDS or not or gay or straight or whatever.   Don't you think?
 
 Yes. Surely the Mormon GLBT community has enough oppression to deal with without us chiming in to tell them how to settle their personal conflicts. I think there is something to said for for either choice -- but it is problem when it is weighed by outsiders.
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Posted: 01 June 2013 07:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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I am not going to support a church who spends Millions to stop a right every person should have and that is to marry who they love and want to marry. I have friends who I know for a fact are gay, but they are married, have kids, and live a life and lie in absolute fear of what would happen if the came out. 

   


Posted: 01 June 2013 08:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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I have a hard time seeing why a gay person would want to remain a Mormon, but that's because I'm an apostate because of doctrinal reasons.  If I still believed and were gay, I'd take some comfort in that it appears the church is fast approaching a "don't ask/don't tell" sort of position.  They are being forced by cultural changes to do that.  It's not ideal, but better than it has been,
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Posted: 01 June 2013 10:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Even though I am a gay man myself, every person's experience is different; every person's idea of happiness is different, and I wouldn't want to tell others what they *should* do. 
But I do want to share some thoughts on the topic.
As difficult as it's been for the church to continue its anti-gay stance due to public and internal pressure, I think they are going to have an even harder time with the more relaxed position, because of the questions raised by Elder Old Dog and others above.  The church is not good with grey areas and this is a step in the grey direction.  Will it be OK for two gay people to hold hands in church? Can they hug?  Certainly not kiss (or can they?)  I think it will be a LONG LONG time before the church sanctions gay sexual relationships or same-sex marriages.  So if you're gay and thinking of staying in the church, you may want to consider whether celibacy for the rest of your life sounds appealing. 
As for the other approach to being gay and staying mormon - the Josh Weed approach, where you DO get to have sex, but it's with the gender you're not naturally attracted to... well, I think that would be another difficult choice. 
To answer the question of how it's even possible...
Straight men in prison sometimes turn to other men for sex, even though they are not attracted to men.  Because the sexual drive is strong and that's all that's available.  They use what's available. 
I think it is the same for mormon married gay men.  Their wives are "all that's available". 
Just like men in prison immediately return to heterosexuality when released, I think mormon married gay men would follow their natural sexuality if they were released from the prison of mormon doctrine. 
On the question of staying in the church, again a very personal decision.  But I would be concerned about staying in an organization that teaches that you are "less than" because of who you are.  LGBT, women, free thinkers - all are both openly and subtly told they are less.  
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Posted: 02 June 2013 04:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Props to the many Mormons who showed up for SLC's Pride Parade including Mormons Building Bridges and the couple interviewed on the ABC4 news who admitted they skipped church to go but considered it the Christian thing to do -- plus good for their kids.
 
It doesn't answer the question, but it warms my heart.
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Posted: 02 June 2013 04:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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I recently met another woman who was the cousin from one of my old friends from YW's. We met at my friend's birthday party, and at one point she and I started talking about LGBTQ movement vs. the LDS church. I told her that one of the major reasons I was leaving the church was because I'm a lesbian, and I learned that she herself was bisexual, but she had chosen to supress it and live a straight life. I've chosen to leave because I don't appreciate TSCC's severe anti-LGBTQ politics, but she told me that she believe's TSCC is changing and becoming more accepting. She's still a strong member, even about to serve a mission. 
 
I think that it's not my place to tell her what she should do with her life. Personally, I think it's only a matter of time before she leaves, because she's a very open-minded person, and pretty liberal, especially compared to the rest of her TBM family. However, if she chooses to live the rest of her life in a straight marrage within the church, then that's her choice and who am I to complain?
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Posted: 03 June 2013 08:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Happy Guy
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I think Dave (e_nomo) is right that the church is not good with grey areas and they have introduced a big grey area with relaxing their stance towards gays.
 
With the scouting program in particular, since they now claim to welcome gay scouts as long as they are chaste, what's going to happen over time when gay teens come out, stay chaste, stay believing, and want to serve missions when they are 18? Is the church going to deny gay members the opportunity of serving a mission even when they believe and have lived the standards of the church? I think a lot of members would be uncomfortable with that because they'd think it would be inappropriate for an openly gay missionary to be living with another person of the same sex. It'll be interesting to see how the church handles this, because it's going to happen soon.
  
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Why arn’t their any post-catholic sites?  
Posted: 25 May 2013 09:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Youngsinglerunning
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I was hoping to find some post-catholics to hang out with but Damn if i could find one wed site for them.  There are all sorts of people out there but catholics don't have any web forums really?  I'm far away from any freaking post mormons but i know there are cathlics out there who feel brainwashed... Right?  or is it really just mormons?
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http://breakingmormon.blogspot.com/


   


Posted: 25 May 2013 09:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Hitchen's Razor
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More likely to find post scientologist groups....same ballpark of crazy.
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Posted: 25 May 2013 10:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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I wonder if the Catholic Church makes the kind of promises TSCC does to its members--or requires the same degree of sacrifice or sets up the ex-Catholic's family to turn on the escapee that the Mormon Church does.  
 
In short, perhaps the Catholic Church does not cause the same degree of damage to one's life either as an active member or as a post Catholic.  Not as much of a life-sucking, relationship-stealing, family-destroying Cult as Mormonism?   Maybe the Catholic Church or most churchs do not leave that nasty after-taste in your mouth that when the "Real Joseph Smith" stands up does.


   


Posted: 25 May 2013 10:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Bipolar Express
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That's because most Catholics I know are "post-Catholics," so they don't need a website. I served a mission in Italy, after all.
 
Truth be told, my best friend (locally) is actually a TBC--True Believing Catholic. It's kind of cool because you can be a true believer and still enjoy some of the finer things (and by finer things, I mean beer and other alcoholic beverages).
 
We have a good time, and neither of us feels guilty about it. Of course, it doesn't happen very often anymore because he now has NINE kids.
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Posted: 25 May 2013 10:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Schyzm
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There aren't a lot of post-catholic groups because catholics aren't as batS*** crazy as TBMs.  
 
There are levels of practicality that catholicism espouses, and they don't make the same type of cult-indoctrination so prevelent in day to day life as the TSCC. Catholic parishes do not demand the equivalent of a second job, nor do they demand the same ritualistic affirmations of loyalty and belief. 
 
Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of problems with the catholic church, including a lot of the ways they make people feel - but the full blown cult indoctrination that you, and every TBM has undergone isn't there.
 
 
In general, post-catholic support groups are called "atheists."  


   


Posted: 25 May 2013 10:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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I work in a Nursing Home that is very Irish Catholic - about 75% of the residents are in that catagory, as is the owner and the Director of Nursing and other key admin staff. 
 
On the one hand, they hold mass six days a week, have special masses on holidays, and everything is tinged with that catholic thing. ON the other hand, the DoN is gay and so are a bunch of other staff members - and it is open and the owner insists on a very affirming environment. I have hired several LGB people and a couple have moved into very visible positions. The priest who does mass is very old-line - his 50 year jubilee as a priest was in January. But on Saturday mass (which has a lot of family attend) to of the key volunteers are an adorable older gay couple - they plan things, do readings, organize stuff and are very visible. 
 
So while the pope says queers are damned to hell, on the ground in reality that is ignored. 
 
Same thing with a lot of other activities, from premarital sex to birth control or drinking and drug use and pretty much every thing else. As long as you say your are Catholic and don't make a big public spectacle and go to confession sometimes, nobody really seems to care if you follow the rules. 
 
There is a lot of guilt, but even that seems to be compartmentalized for most people. 
 
Not a lot of "post" seems to be needed. 
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Posted: 25 May 2013 10:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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   If you are catholic and you screw up, you simply go to confessional, say a few prayers, and it's over. You might get a good talking to by the Father, but unless you ate your neighbor you are pretty much free to go back to the dance.
 
   If you are a TBM mormon and you screw up, oh yeah, you screwed up big time. You don't even have to confess, someone will rat you out before the ten o-clock news is over. There will be a meeting with the bishoprick, stake president, four clerks, and the librarian. Then a meeting with 13 sullen faced men who have already tied the noose and are just waiting to hear you speak the words that they know you are going to speak.
   It wasn't all that long ago that they would make you strip down and take off the holy underwear right then and there. Then the next sunday, your name would be mentioned over the pulpit as being disfellowshiped or excommunicated. The audience would be instructed not to associate with you. 
   Fortunately, that doesn't happen now. But you will be invited to a court of love which is really a bunch of guys who have probably done the very thing you are about to talk about in great detail. Yeah, in great detail, complete with a question and answer period.
   So, why aren't there any post-catholic sites? I haven't a clue
 



   


Posted: 26 May 2013 04:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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It's a matter of Religion vs Lifestyle.
 
Catholics:
-don't take roll at every mtg you attend
-don't dictate what you drink, eat, smoke
-don't tell you what to wear to church
-dont have you sit for 3 hrs of mtgs on Sunday
-don't have you sit for hours at mtgs on other days
-don't take roll at every mtg you sit for hours at
-don't expect you to take time off to attend Girl's camp every summer
-don't tell you to spend money on a years supply of food that will go rotten and taste bad
-don't send people to your house each month to pretend they care or make you do the same
-don't teach that money buys your way to heaven (no tithe, no temple, no CK)
-don't send boys to your house to collect money you didn't give since you missed church
-don't assign you to speak, teach, wash dishes, chase other people's kids, etc
-don't have you work your butt off as activity leader for stupid parties 
-don't take roll...
 
 ...anyone else have additional things?  I am exhausted. 
 
 
 All things social, not about Christ, by the way
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Posted: 26 May 2013 06:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Why isn't there a "PostCatholic.org?" 
 
Catholics don't claim that the Pope regularly receives messages from God.
 
Catholics don't claim to be "the one true church" and that other religions are abominations.
 
Catholics aren't required to wear special, and especially ridiculous, underwear.
 
Catholics aren't required to attend exclusionary temple ceremonies where they dress up in absurd costumes, use secret names, gestures and handshakes, and swear secret oaths. 
 
Catholics can have non-Catholics attend their weddings. 
 
Catholics aren't required to give 10% of their income to the church.
 
Catholics aren't told to go on missions.
 
Catholics don't use lay clergy, which gives them tight control over doctrine.
 
Catholics don't have to worry about reliable historical accounts being found describing in detail the bizarre ways their religion came into being and the sexual and financial crimes of its original founders.
 
Catholics don't have to defend an 18th century work of fiction as gospel and explain things like the Book of Abraham, Jaredite barges, DNA, pre-Columbian horses, steel, money, etc.
 
 
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Posted: 26 May 2013 09:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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For Science!
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Perhaps you could try looking for ex-Muslims instead? I know that there are blogs by ex-Muslims and a quick Google search pulled up some potential forums and a meet up group. I think there is enough similarities between Is mam a Mormonism that should be able to find stuff to talk about: extra book of scripture, polygamy, food restrictions, clothing restrictions, the second class status of women etc. Just a thought. 

   


Posted: 26 May 2013 09:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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NickB:
Why isn't there a "PostCatholic.org?" 
 
Catholics don't claim that the Pope regularly receives messages from God.
 
 
They do claim he is the direct successor to Peter and the only real authority to speak for God.
 
Not the exact same, but very close. 
 
And everything at work froze when whats-his-name resigned, and then during the conclave to pick the new guy every TV and most conversation were about that. The intensity was very Mormon in feel.
 
 
Catholics don't claim to be "the one true church" and that other religions are abominations.
 
 
Uh... yeah they do. They are just a bit more diplomatic about it. At times. Sometimes. 
 
 
Catholics aren't required to wear special, and especially ridiculous, underwear.
 
 
We have several residents at the nursing home who wear scapulars at all times. Others always have a rosary on their wrist or hand. A couple insist on having prayer cards showing various saints in their pocket and showing at all times - like, sticking out of a shirt pocket. Family members (ie, ranging in age from 60s to teens)  go from those who are totally secular to those who always have the rosary/prayer card and etc. I don't know about scapulars and such, because I don't help them dress. 
 
 
Catholics aren't required to attend exclusionary temple ceremonies where they dress up in absurd costumes, use secret names, gestures and handshakes, and swear secret oaths. 
 
 
That is true. Although I have attended Catholic Mass for funerals and such. There is a whole layer of ritual that is foreign to outsiders. But the Mormons still have them beat. 
 
 
Catholics can have non-Catholics attend their weddings. 
 
Yes. 
 
Catholics aren't required to give 10% of their income to the church.
 
 
True.
 
 
Catholics aren't told to go on missions.
 
They aren't even being expected to be priests or nuns anymore, which is causing a serious graying of the leadership and a crisis at the local level, at least in the US. 
 
Catholics don't use lay clergy, which gives them tight control over doctrine.
 
Yes and no. Priests and nuns cover a wide range in what they teach and how - Catholic teaching includes liberation theology, which has distinct strains of socialism, it has affirming groups that accept LGBT members, it has nuns and female leaders who feel they should be able to administer the sacrament and other currently (officially) male only activities.
 
None of those are approved by Rome or the higher levels. We recently had a catholic resident who is part of a congregation that totally rejects Vatican II - she believed, along with a whole group of others - that saying the mass in english would send people to hell. 
 
There is huge fracturing in catholic teaching.
 
Catholics don't have to worry about reliable historical accounts being found describing in detail the bizarre ways their religion came into being and the sexual and financial crimes of its original founders.
 
Actually, there are 2,000 years of history of crimes and perversions and bad things done by the Catholic church and catholic leaders.
 
One of the most accessible books on the subject is "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church" by Father Malachi Martin, a Jesuit Priest and scholar. It detals the long history of corruption in the Vatican, and the ways the Vatican sold out to gain secular power. It is pretty unflinching. As far as I know, it holds up well as history.
 
More recently the decades of pedophiles and cover-ups are now well known, including the actions of key leaders in the cover-ups. This includes the current and most recent popes. 
 
 
Catholics don't have to defend an 18th century work of fiction as gospel and explain things like the Book of Abraham, Jaredite barges, DNA, pre-Columbian horses, steel, money, etc. 
 
 
True. They have to defend a much older set of mythical stories as truth. They get help because for most people "old" means "real" and so for them when the Bible claims to be the word of god, they point to that as proof that it is the word of god and accurate history. 
 
 
 
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I know the voices aren’t real, but they do come up with some good ideas.


   


Posted: 26 May 2013 10:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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There are message boards for ex Jehovah's Witnesses, ex Scientology and ex Adventists.  As someone else has mentioned, the bats### crazier the group, the more need for support in leaving it.  
 
Let's see.......there is....
Postmormon
Recovery from Mormonism
Life After Mormonism
Further Light and Knowledge
New Order Mormons
 
gee, what does that tell you? 
 
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“Remember, all I’m offering is the truth. Nothing more.”


   


Posted: 26 May 2013 10:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Silver Girl
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This reminded me of a thread here a while back where someone linked to an online "post Jehova's witness" support group.  I highly recommend you check it out.
 
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/23158/
 
It was unreal how similar it was to ours.
 
SG 
 


   


Posted: 26 May 2013 10:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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There are also web forums for former evangelicals and fundamentalists.
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Posted: 26 May 2013 11:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
Curious NeverMo
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SheDevil:
It's a matter of Religion vs Lifestyle.
 
Catholics:
-don't take roll at every mtg you attend
-don't dictate what you drink, eat, smoke
-don't tell you what to wear to church
-dont have you sit for 3 hrs of mtgs on Sunday
-don't have you sit for hours at mtgs on other days
-don't take roll at every mtg you sit for hours at
-don't expect you to take time off to attend Girl's camp every summer
-don't tell you to spend money on a years supply of food that will go rotten and taste bad
-don't send people to your house each month to pretend they care or make you do the same
-don't teach that money buys your way to heaven (no tithe, no temple, no CK)
-don't send boys to your house to collect money you didn't give since you missed church
-don't assign you to speak, teach, wash dishes, chase other people's kids, etc
-don't have you work your butt off as activity leader for stupid parties 
-don't take roll...
 
 ...anyone else have additional things?  I am exhausted. 
 
 
 All things social, not about Christ, by the way
 
 I'm an ex-Catholic raised in Catholic schools and a thoroughly Catholic family.  I left the chuch when I was 20 and away from home at school.  
 
I'd say this list is pretty right on.  It misses that your eternal soul is damned to the fires of hell for an enormous list of things including things that, otherwise, wouldn't be a problem unless you thought they were a "sin" when you did them.  It misses the constant burden that you probably were called to be a nun or a priest and are simply too selfish to accept it and devote yourself to a celebate life.  
 
There is the same attempt to keep people in the Catholic environment through schools, hospitals, social and sports clubs, etc.  There are Catholic summer camps for kids.  There is a similar attempt to keep people busy.  This is especially prevalent with sports activities for boys that are supposed to divert their attention from sex.  There is the same ridiculous paranoia about sex.
 
But when you've had enough, you simply walk away.  Initially you have to overcome rather superstitious ideas that you are eternally damed to unspeakable tortures.  You have to contend with your family's reaction which can range from sadness and disappontment to great fear and even rejection -- tho not nearly to the extent that people here experience.  
 
Besides, there are sooooo many ex-Catholics -- a large number of the kids who had Catholic schools inflicted on them -- that we don't have to go looking for support.  We all know other ex-Catholics. 
 
Catholics who attend mass -- and it's another mortal sin which damns your soul to hell if you miss one for any reason short of being sick in bed -- can do it at in any parish they choose to.  If you don't like the congregation in one parish or think the priest is a jerk you just find one more to your taste.  Consequently, there's less awareness when people start slipping away. 


   


Posted: 26 May 2013 11:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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I thought to myself, "I'll ask the question, 'are there forums for recovering atheists?' because just thinking of that question makes me laugh!"
 
I assumed that if i checked for such a forum, I'd come up empty.  And essentionally I was correct.  But I did find this thread:
 
 http://christianchat.com/new-christian-chat-members-introduce-yourselves/58321-recovering-atheist-seeking-guidance.html  
 
 ...in which a young lady explains that she 'accepted' atheism into her heart as a teen, after two loved ones died.  You know, the ol' "I hate you, ghawd, you broke my heart!!" response to tragedy.  (Many a missionary has a "propheted" from this reaction.)  
 
At the time she's writing on ChristianChat, she's regained a hankering for the religion of her youth, Catholicism.  She says her atheist boyfriend told her he'd go to church with her, but she knows her friends, atheists all, are going to shun her...
 
So apparently, there really is nothing new under the sun.
 
 
 
 
 


   


Posted: 26 May 2013 11:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
Curious NeverMo
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NickB:
Why isn't there a "PostCatholic.org?" 
 
Catholics don't claim that the Pope regularly receives messages from God.
 
Catholics don't claim to be "the one true church" and that other religions are abominations.
 
Catholics aren't required to wear special, and especially ridiculous, underwear.
 
Catholics aren't required to attend exclusionary temple ceremonies where they dress up in absurd costumes, use secret names, gestures and handshakes, and swear secret oaths. 
 
Catholics can have non-Catholics attend their weddings. 
 
Catholics aren't required to give 10% of their income to the church.
 
Catholics aren't told to go on missions.
 
Catholics don't use lay clergy, which gives them tight control over doctrine.
 
Catholics don't have to worry about reliable historical accounts being found describing in detail the bizarre ways their religion came into being and the sexual and financial crimes of its original founders.
 
Catholics don't have to defend an 18th century work of fiction as gospel and explain things like the Book of Abraham, Jaredite barges, DNA, pre-Columbian horses, steel, money, etc.
 
 
 
 Yeah, it may not be quite so overt but they really do believe that the Pope has the authority to act for god.
 
 Not true.  They believe the Catholic church is "the one true church" (even using that exact expression).  The new Pope is saying other things but this is pretty shocking and controversial exactly because of the long tradtion of being very explict that the Catholic church is the one created by Jesus and the only one with his blessing.
 
 Happily this is true.  But there is great emphasis on modesty and making women responsible for men's behavior and even thoughts.  Happily too, our shoulders are not lurid but there are the stories about nuns warning against patent leather shoes as they could reflect the Golden Triangle.    When I was in school we had nuns walking around with yardsticks to make sure our hems were long enough and the straps on our dresses were wide enough.  
 
 Of course this is true but we were warned against having non-Catholic friends.  ...'cause you all are so immoral and dangerous and not loved by god.  tsk tsk
 
You're supposed to.  No one checks.  No settlements.  But everyone knows who are the big contributors and that they're far better people than the rest of us.  And the stories about vicious mobsters giving big donations and getting kowtowed to by the church are very true.  
 
 There is the same attempt to control the message.  They're just not so heavy handed.  ...unless you're referring to the constant threat that you'll burn in hell for even questioning anything.


   


Posted: 26 May 2013 10:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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Curious NeverMo:
NickB:
Why isn't there a "PostCatholic.org?" 
 
Catholics don't claim that the Pope regularly receives messages from God.
 
Catholics don't claim to be "the one true church" and that other religions are abominations.
 
Catholics aren't required to wear special, and especially ridiculous, underwear.
 
Catholics aren't required to attend exclusionary temple ceremonies where they dress up in absurd costumes, use secret names, gestures and handshakes, and swear secret oaths. 
 
Catholics can have non-Catholics attend their weddings. 
 
Catholics aren't required to give 10% of their income to the church.
 
Catholics aren't told to go on missions.
 
Catholics don't use lay clergy, which gives them tight control over doctrine.
 
Catholics don't have to worry about reliable historical accounts being found describing in detail the bizarre ways their religion came into being and the sexual and financial crimes of its original founders.
 
Catholics don't have to defend an 18th century work of fiction as gospel and explain things like the Book of Abraham, Jaredite barges, DNA, pre-Columbian horses, steel, money, etc.
 
 
 
 Yeah, it may not be quite so overt but they really do believe that the Pope has the authority to act for god.
 
 Not true.  They believe the Catholic church is "the one true church" (even using that exact expression).  The new Pope is saying other things but this is pretty shocking and controversial exactly because of the long tradtion of being very explict that the Catholic church is the one created by Jesus and the only one with his blessing.
 
 Happily this is true.  But there is great emphasis on modesty and making women responsible for men's behavior and even thoughts.  Happily too, our shoulders are not lurid but there are the stories about nuns warning against patent leather shoes as they could reflect the Golden Triangle.    When I was in school we had nuns walking around with yardsticks to make sure our hems were long enough and the straps on our dresses were wide enough.  
 
 Of course this is true but we were warned against having non-Catholic friends.  ...'cause you all are so immoral and dangerous and not loved by god.  tsk tsk
 
You're supposed to.  No one checks.  No settlements.  But everyone knows who are the big contributors and that they're far better people than the rest of us.  And the stories about vicious mobsters giving big donations and getting kowtowed to by the church are very true.  
 
 There is the same attempt to control the message.  They're just not so heavy handed.  ...unless you're referring to the constant threat that you'll burn in hell for even questioning anything.
I've never seen anything that supports the idea that Catholics believe the pope has the authority to act for God.  Actually I can't really remember a single time any of my Catholic family or friends ever mentioned anything said by a pope even my aunt who was a nun.  The exception would be my dad who liked to talk about theology and his conversations were never "you have to believe, follow obey".  Just open discussion, he had some interesting stuff about when life begins and how it was not always thought to have began at conception.  He also had little to say about the pope but a lot to say about our cardinal who he considered a real piece of work, though that's a lot nicer than he described him. Quite a few people who call themselves Catholic pay absolutely no attention to what the pope says on issues like birth control abortion, and capital punishment to name just a few.   
 
Again this is not my experience with growing up Catholic no one ever implied that I was responsible for men's thoughts.  As to skirt lenths and strap widths, nothing growing up was different than the rules my kids now have in public school and even my aunt never commented on our spaghetti straps or short shorts during our summers at grandma's farm.  Not to mention the popularity of strapless wedding dresses, something I consider not right for church but seems to be de rigueur these days.  Have to say I find the constant tugging of the dress up to be rather distracting from it's attractiveness.

 
 
This is just nuts to me, not only did I not ever growing up hear anything remotely like this (not at home, not from families of my Catholic friends and not from church or CCD) no one I know now has never even vaguely implied it.  Over half of the parents I work with at school and volunteer with in various activities are Catholic and in all the time we've spent together the religious status of their childrens friends has never been a concern.  Most of the people I know place very little priority on religion at all as a measure of the people around them and they certainly don't limit their choice of friends to those who are Catholic.  This holds true for the Baptists, Lutherans and other assorted churches in my area.     
 
 
 
Everyone knows who the big contributors are in any group and they are almost alway fauned over, this isn't a particulary Catholic or Mormon thing.
 
I think that if you pay just a bit of attention to various sources you will find that Catholics not only question but directly challenge a whole lot of stuff.  How many groups of Catholics are there that advocate for change on women priests, gay marriage/adoption, and certainly they object to the stance on birth control.  A lot of conservative republican Catholics take exception to ideas in Catholic social teaching and liberal Catholics take exception to ideas in Catholic moral teaching neither side pulls their punches when it comes to questioning or challenging the church. Hence books like Why You Can Disagree and Remain a Faithful Catholic  or the argument from some Catholics that while hell exists it is empty.
 
 
 
 


   


Posted: 27 May 2013 07:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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I am also an ex-Catholic and I find it kind of funny how there seems to be some disparity in what Catholics believe that Catholics believe.  Just like the mormons. 
 
My experience was that most of Catholics I knew were the equivalent of cultural mormons.  They sorta believed yet had no problem going against certain church teachings,  like birth control.  For most it was just about tradition and inertia, not deeply held religious conviction.  
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Posted: 27 May 2013 09:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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I'm glad you have a different experience, huehuetenango.  I'm 65 and grew up pre-Vatican II in Catholic schools thru high school.  The thoughts I wrote are the ones that were drummed into us almost daily.  
 
The most shocking one to me -- and probably what began my slide out of the church as early as fourth grade -- was that I should most certainly not be associating with non-Catholics.  It is, as you say, patently absurd and most judgmental and unchristian.  Nevertheless, that was the clear and explicit message we were given.  
 
The rest is simply how the nuns responsible for educating my immortal soul interpreted the Baltimore Catechism we had to memorize.  It most specifically said that the Pope was god's vicar on earth and that the Catholic church was the "one true church" which was, ordinarily, necessary for salvation.  We, of course, loved to invent the circumstances in which the nuns would have to admit exceptions like unfortunate pagan babies who died before they were ever brought the word about Christ's church but then that was why we had to bring in postage stamps and discarded clothing and otherwise support the Catholic missionaries who would bring them into the fold.   
 
Really, in a great many ways, the difference between the Roman Catholic church (at least pre-Vatican II) and the LDS is a matter of degree and intensity.  BUT it is much easier to make your exit.  That much is clear.
 
As dave says, there are a lot of flavors.  This is the one I grew up with.   I got it by googling "one true church" so it must not be completely antiquated, even post-Vatican II.
 
 
Edited to say that you're very correct in saying that no Catholic would ever be concerned about what girls wear prior to adolescence.   Only a prude would bat an eye at young girls (maybe under the age of 8) being topless or even fully naked in the summerwhen they're playing in their yards with friends.   The business of nuns verifying the suitability of clothing -- when we weren't in those personality eliminating uniforms -- didn't happen until about 6th grade and then was limited to those of us enrolled in Catholic schools.  If you weren't thus incarcerated you just got a visual inspection and stinkeye.  
 
I must say, tho, that to the best of my knowledge, Mormons are the only people outside of the Middle East where a woman would think twice about whether or not her shoulders (gasp!) were showing.  That degree of restriction and judgment seems nutz to me and I bet it would to most of the rest of the Western world if people were even aware of the LDS proscription against it.   
 
As for the Pope's authority to act on god's behalf this is the passage that is interpreted to convey that authority:
 
Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. [18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19]And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. 




 
  
It's also very true that particularly American Catholics are a contentious bunch and reject the idea that they can't come to their own conclusions and set their own priorities.  But that idea of the authority of the Pope is pretty central to Catholic doctrine so while you'll get the "yeah, so what?" practical response when people aren't willing to submit to some doctrine or other there's still acceptance that the Pope is god's vicar on earth.  It's pretty core to Catholic beliefs.



  
 


   


Posted: 27 May 2013 09:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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And their clergy and nuns do wear unusual underwear as well as outer wear in some conclaves.
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Posted: 28 May 2013 07:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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There are probably resources web and otherwise for people who are trying to get away from some of the cultier catholic sects like Opus Dei. or who have resigned from the holy orders.
 
If you look at it another way, Post-Caths have existed for well over a thousand years.  They got their big break, however, when Martin Luther took up his hammer.
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My Wife Loves John Dehlin  
Posted: 26 May 2013 05:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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It's not what you think.  
 
 
She's listening to John's podcast about his postmo survey results.  Every....single....issue John brings up in his presentation she has heard me talk about for 20 years.  I told him the Church doesn't like him very much and he might get ex'ed.  She just told me, and I quote,  "Itinerant, I promise you, if he gets ex'ed, I'm leaving the church.  Let's shake on it.  I mean it."  We shook hands.
 
ohmygodohmygodohmygod.  There's hope!!!!  Not that I want John ex'ed for my own sake.  I wish him all the best, but  ohmygodohmygodohmygod.
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Posted: 26 May 2013 06:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Listening to JD might cuase her to leave the church even if he doesn't get x-ed. He's edgy enough to cause thoughtfulness. Thinking outside the TBM box makes many people leave.
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Posted: 27 May 2013 05:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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My wife used to hinge on nearly every single word that came out of JD's mouth. Now she just thinks he's a flaky attention seeker. I however will be forever indebted to the guy because he got her to look at things in ways I was never able to. He was, in a safe gentle way, like the guy in the story that Robert Kirby recently referred to.
 
Unlike JD's wishy washy in & out journey, once my wife started to see the church for what it really is, she was completely and unequivocally done with it and has never looked back. Some people are angry with John for flipping, but in my opinion, if he helps one see the truth about the church then you owe him gratitude regardless of the flaky nature of his own journey. 
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Daughter looking to join the Mormons  
Posted: 14 May 2013 05:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Hi
I wonder if you can help, my daughter has developed an interest in joining the Mormons and last Sunday went to her first meeting. It wasn't until after I dropped her off that I realised what faith the church was.
Now I'm trying to be as open minded as possible but find the possibility of her continuing with this difficult to swallow...the primary reason been the stance on homosexuality. Now I know the church recently backed away from campaigning against equal marriage rights and from reading up on the subject the line seems to be homosexuality is fine as long as you don't act on it!!!. 
The reason I'm having such difficulty with this is my sister before she died in a car crash came out as gay, and also my own Liberal beliefs. Everyone is equal no matter colour, sex or sexual orientation.
When I confronted her with this, her argument was some of the members had gay friends...sorry but if you put a sinful barrier in the way of someone been gay then you are not accepting someones own sexuality.
The question I suppose is along with this aspect  what else should I be worried over...if anything?
By the way we are in the UK, she's nearly 18 and expressed an interest in moving to the US in the past, so I consider this as been one of the reasons she's going down this path. Shes also obsessed with Justin Beiber and from the information Ive picked up online there's some discussion as to if he is a Mormon or from a Mormon background...sad I know that she would go down this path due to these reasons, but its the only logical thing I can think off as to why.


   


Posted: 14 May 2013 05:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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The stance on gays is important... but a larger, looming issue for you personally is that you will be standing on the sidewalk if she chooses to marry in a temple. not sure if going to the registry wedding first in England would be enough for you, but for sure you wouldn't be allowed in the temple.
There are others here who can better advise you on how to have her learn the whole truth of the church... this is just a very real warning (been there, still doing that--grandchildren's weddings)... 
 
Best wishes with it
Em


   


Posted: 14 May 2013 06:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Welcome to the board!
 
Don't know how old your daughter is, but if she's suffering from Bieber fever she probably hasn't gotten much further than Key Stage 4.
 
Putting your foot down and saying she's forbidden from attending won't help.  (I have survived two of my daughters going through their teen years, so I know whereof I speak)  Instead, have her look at the MormonThink website.  There is a huge amount of information to be found there.  If she goes through the discussions and wants to get dunked, she'll need to go through an interview.  The questions asked are pretty innocuous, and really don't go into what mormons actually believe.  A better list of questions was posted at this site a while ago, here is a link:  http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/35151/
 
Converting to a new religion based on the religion of a celebrity is rather silly.  I wasn't about to convert to Judaism just because Susannah Hoffs is Jewish.  My daughter wouldn't become Presbyterian just because of David Tennant.
 
Again, welcome to the board.
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Posted: 14 May 2013 06:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Ditto to Woody's suggestion - MormonThink will probably be your greatest asset. Church members will probably encourage her to make her decision by reading only church-approved materials, but since she hasn't been indoctrinated you should be able to convince her to look at ALL the information available about the church, so she can make an informed decision (instead of one based mostly on emotion). And you should probably educate yourself more as well, just so you can be more helpful through this process. I think you will find that there are an overwhelming number of reasons why the church should be avoided (beyond its stance on homosexuality), and I hope you're able to help her see that. Good luck!
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Posted: 14 May 2013 06:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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My husband's TBM stepmom posted this bullshit on her FB wall this morning....
 

 
Oh sure, she has gay friends, but absolutely no concept of if the history of coming out as gay, anywhere from shunning to risking being beaten to death, because it's currently not on her radar.  Expect a blog post on this graphic later. 
This is the kind of bubble your daughter is exploring.  One where it's okay to step on the backs of others who you rank as less than you to reach up to the pulpit and therefore up to the highest ranks of heaven. 
Where I grew up in Utah people would claim they were friends with sinners.  Like it was a stamp on their ward missionary passport...service to the sinners...but their friendship comes with a hell of a lot of strings and doublespeak and not a whole lot of compassion.
 
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Posted: 14 May 2013 06:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Wildman
Their is so many problems with Mormonism culturally and doctrinally that it's hard to even explain what a mess it is to someone outside the organization. you're daughter would do well to stay away.
I guess the first thing would be the book of Mormon.
It's supposed to be a record of people who left Israel around 600bc and came to America's. the  church for years claimed the primary ancestors of the American Indians were Jewish.
Their is no DNA evidence to back this up.
They don't even know where in America the book take place. (that would be a good question to ask, so show me on a map , where are thier cities located? is thier any city in the book that they have found? it's that suspishous ? they have a prophet who could tell them, they have had 150 years or so to look around. really no confirmed location.
2. The book was translated from golden plates, but the plates where taken back by an angle, So sorry no evidence. 
One of the witnesses later clarified that they saw the book with thier "spritual eyes" only.  Most all of them left the church or where excomunicated at some point.
so thier are no objective witness to the plates ever existing.
 
Joseph Smith the founder of Mormonism also claimed to translate other items.
the primary one being the BOA (book of abraham). Their is a video online about this you should watch it.
despite it being proven inaccurate it's still Mormon scripture today.
 
Their are hundred of things like this that would prove to a non indoctrinated person that it's all fake. 
 
Mormonism promotes traditional 1950's american values, this can be very oppressive  for a female. Mormonism doesn't promote free thinking and is time consuming and judgemental of outsiders, which you will be if she joins. If mormonism is not a cult is sure has a lot of cult like properties.
 
good luck.
 
 


   


Posted: 14 May 2013 06:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
wildman
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Thanks for the replies so far...one of the problems I'm up against is the rest of the family including her mother and grandmother seem to feel that if she's left alone then after a few weeks she will come round and leave....from what I understand of the organisation they are well primed to know how to stop this from happening, sucking you deeper in. 

   


Posted: 14 May 2013 06:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Woody
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wildman:
Thanks for the replies so far...one of the problems I'm up against is the rest of the family including her mother and grandmother seem to feel that if she's left alone then after a few weeks she will come round and leave....from what I understand of the organisation they are well primed to know how to stop this from happening, sucking you deeper in.
 
If this is the case, then you might steer her mother toward MormonThink as well.  Your understanding is correct, they try to keep you stuck in a bog of love and companionship.  Love and companionship predicating on staying in the cult.
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Posted: 14 May 2013 07:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Bad Company
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Yeah... justin beiber is not at all Mormon. He does have blond hair and blue eyes and is unnecessarily arrogant though, so I can see the confusion. 

   


Posted: 14 May 2013 09:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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I think the most important first step you can take is to sit down with your kid and have a serious conversation, and ask a few questions:
 
1) Why are you interested in joining the LDS faith?
2) What do you expect to have happen to your family life as a Mormon?
 
Until you have a good handle on why she is doing this, you're not going to be able to get under the reasons - and that will poison anything you're trying to do.


   


Posted: 14 May 2013 09:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Wildman
you might want to take her to see Book Of Mormon Musical. I hear it's super funny and could spark discussion. I hear it hits hard, but is funny. Anybody who as seen it might want to comment further. Currently it's playing in London


   


Posted: 14 May 2013 09:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Applying Occam's Razor to this situation, the most likely reason your daughter is attracted to Mormonism is because someone "new" and perhaps "exciting" is paying attention to her.  Mormons who flaunt their religion (other than Missionaries) are usually prosperous and have the accoutrement's of success, and have more leisure time than the majority of the world.  They dress nicely, behave courteously and are usually a bit above average in intelligence, so that when someone new to their world is in their presence, it seems like taking a step up.  And then the things they can promise you!!  Eternal life, an outpouring of riches such that one cannot contain them, a companion for life and beyond, answers to prayers, comforting by the Spirit.  
 
You can't really fight them, as a non-member father because they can hint that good ol' Satan is using you to prevent her from being saved; you think you mean well but everyone, they'll tell your daughter, knows that Satan will do anything he can to frustrate people finding the TRUTH!
 
Having been a teenager and a parent, it's my opinion that you've got a tough row to hoe here.  At 17 I knew that I knew more than my parents, those old fogeys!  And boy, if I wanted something, especially something that was so easily obtainable, like visiting a building (chapel) two or three times a week, no one was going to stop me.  And you know they'll be dangling Baptism in front of her like it was some great and wonderful passage to a new life, the best life possible.
 
There are ever so many sources for information that provides and honest, unflinching look at Mormonism, but most of us here know (because we did it) that it's easy to ignore other sources of information when we know they will clash with what we WANT to believe.  And that's your problem.  The missionaries, be they the two year kind or just ward or stake missionaries, are filling your daughter full of fairy tales that they know she wants to believe.  It's like they're selling her a used car, one that is pleasing to her eye.  Someone objective can look at the car and see indications as to why it should be avoided, but she's not being objective and would resent objectivity.
 
So what do you do?  Danged if I know.  But the less you fuss at her, the more likely she will be to turn to you, to listen to you later.  Humans don't like their mistakes rubbed in, but we sure like to be comforted by people who love us.
 
You'll have to be the judge on this, because you don't want to be 'the bad guy' in this situation, but think about telling your daughter that because of your concern for her, and your lack of knowledge regarding Mormons and Mormonism, you sat down and asked Google for inspiration and were let here and to MormonThink.com, and that you're wondering what she thinks for the two sites.  Don't tell her she needs to look at the sites; appeal to her curiosity and ask her where we (apostates) have gone wrong, let her explain to you where we screwed up.  
 
She'll always be your daughter, so you better always be a good dad, which in my book means you give her the freedom to grow up.  Doesn't mean we parents can't try to stack the deck so that our kids are dealt good cards, but you can't play her hand for her. 


   


Posted: 14 May 2013 09:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog:
Applying Occam's Razor to this situation, the most likely reason your daughter is attracted to Mormonism is because someone "new" and perhaps "exciting" is paying attention to her.  Mormons who flaunt their religion (other than Missionaries) are usually prosperous and have the accoutrement's of success, and have more leisure time than the majority of the world.  They dress nicely, behave courteously and are usually a bit above average in intelligence, so that when someone new to their world is in their presence, it seems like taking a step up.  And then the things they can promise you!!  Eternal life, an outpouring of riches such that one cannot contain them, a companion for life and beyond, answers to prayers, comforting by the Spirit.  
 
You can't really fight them, as a non-member father because they can hint that good ol' Satan is using you to prevent her from being saved; you think you mean well but everyone, they'll tell your daughter, knows that Satan will do anything he can to frustrate people finding the TRUTH!
 
Having been a teenager and a parent, it's my opinion that you've got a tough row to hoe here.  At 17 I knew that I knew more than my parents, those old fogeys!  And boy, if I wanted something, especially something that was so easily obtainable, like visiting a building (chapel) two or three times a week, no one was going to stop me.  And you know they'll be dangling Baptism in front of her like it was some great and wonderful passage to a new life, the best life possible.
 
There are ever so many sources for information that provides and honest, unflinching look at Mormonism, but most of us here know (because we did it) that it's easy to ignore other sources of information when we know they will clash with what we WANT to believe.  And that's your problem.  The missionaries, be they the two year kind or just ward or stake missionaries, are filling your daughter full of fairy tales that they know she wants to believe.  It's like they're selling her a used car, one that is pleasing to her eye.  Someone objective can look at the car and see indications as to why it should be avoided, but she's not being objective and would resent objectivity.
 
So what do you do?  Danged if I know.  But the less you fuss at her, the more likely she will be to turn to you, to listen to you later.  Humans don't like their mistakes rubbed in, but we sure like to be comforted by people who love us.
 
You'll have to be the judge on this, because you don't want to be 'the bad guy' in this situation, but think about telling your daughter that because of your concern for her, and your lack of knowledge regarding Mormons and Mormonism, you sat down and asked Google for inspiration and were let here and to MormonThink.com, and that you're wondering what she thinks for the two sites.  Don't tell her she needs to look at the sites; appeal to her curiosity and ask her where we (apostates) have gone wrong, let her explain to you where we screwed up.  
 
She'll always be your daughter, so you better always be a good dad, which in my book means you give her the freedom to grow up.  Doesn't mean we parents can't try to stack the deck so that our kids are dealt good cards, but you can't play her hand for her. 
 
Wow, EOD, you are chock full of wisdom.  Very well said.
 
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Posted: 14 May 2013 12:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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I would say that you should love your daughter no matter what. The Mormon church has a nasty habit of breaking families apart, and you don't want to let this happen to you. The Mormon church is a crazy cult, but if you forbid her to join, then she will be likely to join just to spite you. It would be better to take a gentler approach. Instead of being like, "You may not join this cult! I forbid it! You will ruin your life!" You should instead be more like, "The Mormons have some rather unique beliefs and history. Look at this article that I found on the Internet. Isn't this interesting?"
But I think you should be accepting and forgiving. try not to push your daughter away or let her push you away. People make mistakes, and families are important. 

   


Posted: 14 May 2013 02:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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To let you know I became a CONvert in my teens. We were allured by the American missionaries. It was something different. Though we also had some feelings of mistrust too towards it. I wondered when they were giving me the lessons if I would turn back years later and regret the decision. Well I came to see it for what it was/is years later as a adult and certainly there are some nice and charismatic people in it also some devils who would shake your hand on a Sunday and stab you in the back on a Monday. I feel like I am a modern version of someone who was part of the Martin Handcart Company of which many died crossing the plains to Salt Lake Valley. I lost my family, my kids, had to file bankruptcy, suffered deep depression, found myself in near total isolation/solitary cultural confinement(as a result for waking up to reality and knowing GOD does not pull his finger out when you need him). I had served as a valiant missionary too. My patriarchal blessings gave me words of comfort yet was totally unreliable no matter how much I tried to be perfect and live THE WAY. As a teen/kid it is easier to get caught up in aspirations though lacking experience and how much of mankind is out to take advantage of another. Now it offers a culture where you can have friends and a sense of belonging though many will only be your friend as a condition of your "Faith" I see the leaders only as businessmen many who have been conned themselves and mostly raised in it (victims themselves knowingly or unknowingly). The slogan the church has used is "Truth Restored." They do not welcome inquiry to the truth. You will discover that they have even given some of their historians the boot for telling the truth. It is a traditional organization whose loyalty is only protecting the illusion. You can gain an identity to this group. If you read the stories(or testimonies) of the many on here you will see that it can have a devastating effect on one's life and family. You will also find those who are happy being on the religious drug. I know there are not many in it that would do what I did. Yes you can become happy in it if that is what you want and remain ignorant to everything else. Started by a man claiming to be the one of the very few seeing God and Christ. Joining it should be no simple decision without a lot of thinking and investigating. I found that even as missionaries we were kept in the dark about many things. The silence should be deafening. 

   


Posted: 14 May 2013 05:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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The church teaches fairly strict genders roles which may or may not be a concern to you. Basically, the wife is supposed to stay home and take care of the house and children while the man is the bread winner. While the official stance is that women should get an education in case something happens to their husband, this doesn't always happen culturally. One of my LDS friends confided in me that her husband was discouraging her from getting a degree and thought she should just stay home with her baby. Before she had the kid, I remember her telling me that "that stupid boy got me pregnant" and there was pain in her voice, not excitement. She was in her early 20s at the time, probably 22 or 23. My heart just aches for her since she may not get the education that she truly wants. I lost contact with her, so I don't know if she ever got to finish her degree or not. Naturally, this isn't the case for all Mormon women but marrying  in their early 20s is very common as is having kids right away - at least that's how it is for Utah Mormons.
 
The only dream that a Mormon woman is really supposed to have is to be a stay at home mother and to have lots of kids. Prior to getting my patriarchal blessing in high school, I thought that I would never get married (I always had low self-esteem when I was growing up, but perhaps on a subconscious level I really wanted a career) and was planning to do something with astronomy, possibly working for NASA or something. After I got that "blessing" which told me that I would get married and have kids I ended up abandoning that career path, and the sciences in general, and trying to find a career that I could do from home. Basically, I messed up my career path because I tried to fit into the mold that the church had made for me and nearly destroyed myself in the process.


   


Posted: 14 May 2013 06:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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For Science!:
The church teaches fairly strict genders roles which may or may not be a concern to you. Basically, the wife is supposed to stay home and take care of the house and children while the man is the bread winner. While the official stance is that women should get an education in case something happens to their husband, this doesn't always happen culturally. One of my LDS friends confided in me that her husband was discouraging her from getting a degree and thought she should just stay home with her baby. Before she had the kid, I remember her telling me that "that stupid boy got me pregnant" and there was pain in her voice, not excitement. She was in her early 20s at the time, probably 22 or 23. My heart just aches for her since she may not get the education that she truly wants. I lost contact with her, so I don't know if she ever got to finish her degree or not. Naturally, this isn't the case for all Mormon women but marrying  in their early 20s is very common as is having kids right away - at least that's how it is for Utah Mormons.
 
The only dream that a Mormon woman is really supposed to have is to be a stay at home mother and to have lots of kids. Prior to getting my patriarchal blessing in high school, I thought that I would never get married (I always had low self-esteem when I was growing up, but perhaps on a subconscious level I really wanted a career) and was planning to do something with astronomy, possibly working for NASA or something. After I got that "blessing" which told me that I would get married and have kids I ended up abandoning that career path, and the sciences in general, and trying to find a career that I could do from home. Basically, I messed up my career path because I tried to fit into the mold that the church had made for me and nearly destroyed myself in the process.
 
 I think with the missionary ages being lowered, the marriage age will lower, especially in Utah. Women who might have gone to college while their boyfriend was on a mission can now go on one, and if the timing is right, both will be done around the same time. Since RM's are usually pressured to get married ASAP, it might mean the woman might have only a single semester of college to her name, and may never go back if they have kids right away.
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Posted: 14 May 2013 07:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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My husband joined in his early 20's and then married me soon after. They flat out lied to him and only taught him parts of the lessons that would interest him. He was a member for a couple months before I his girlfriend had to explain the law of chastity. It was bad. His parents had ignored it figuring he would grow out of it and instead directed their anger at me permantly damaging our relationship with them. I wish they could have saved us the 5years it took to get out of the church. I have thought and thought. The only idea I have had is that they could have expressed interest and joined him. If they would have they could have asked all the tough questions he hadn't thought of. They could have. A few Sundays, a few lessons, and he would have seen how illogical the religion was. A few weeks of their time could have saved us years. I was on the brink when we met. A good parental figure showing love and logic would have swayed me. Oh I wish. 

   


Posted: 14 May 2013 10:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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Oh shit!  Danm Mormons know everything.  Ask her to ask the missionarys about the secret handshake, or piligomy or eloham. All you can do is educate her on the lies before she gets dunked in holy water.  Maybe you could acted interested and go to discussions with her.  Then hit the church where it hurts. Book of Abraham, pull out the pictures, Joes 13 wifes, maybe some "blood sacrifice"  or black people.  we have no edidence of where the BOM took place.   This is war dude.  Don't feel bad fighting it.  she has a right to know the truth. The missionarys don't know it but they are making $$$ for mon$on and that is it.  If she still joined then you always know you tried.   If i knew then what i know now.  
 
Oh but be tactful because mormons will tell her everything you say is "ant-Mormon"  recomed you study together.  
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Posted: 15 May 2013 01:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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Mormonism is sugar-coated crap, really. On the surface, Mormons (Latter-day Saints comes across as friendly, caring, and 'spiritual'. But remove the seemingly 'nice' outer layer, and what's exposed is a dishonest, cultic church and religion.
 
Who says so, other than hundreds of thousands of former Mormons who have left "the Morg" since the mid-1990s alone? Steven Hassan, America's leading cult expert. He's listed The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on his website as a thought-control organization (ref. http://www.freedomofmind.com/Info/infoDet.php?id=371 and see the list under "ABC" at http://www.freedomofmind.com/Info/list.php).
 
As a licensed mental health professional with decades of cult exit counseling experience, Hassan knows a fraud wrapped in the cloak of religion when he sees one. He has provided information about cults to the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, USA Today, and Newsweek, and on The Oprah Winfrey Show, Larry King Live, The Today Show, 60 Minutes, Night Line, Geraldo, and Good Morning America. (Ref. http://freedomofmind.com/Media/biography.php)
 
Mormonism was created/founded by an early nineteenth-century occult practitioner and con artist by the name of Joseph Smith, Jr. Has the LDS Church or its leaders or instructors or the Mormons your daughter knows informed her of the following (probably not)?
 
“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.”
 
That quote comes from a July 1993 article by one of the LDS Church's senior apostles, Russell Nelson. The link is here: www.lds.org/ensign/1993/07/a-treasured-testament?lang=eng. Does your daughter want to join a church started by a guy who purportedly 'translated' a book of scripture (a work of fiction, actually) by putting his small rock in his hat and "drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light"?
 
Here's another quote from the church's The Friend magazine (it's online):
"Because of his spiritual nature and his willingness to learn the truth, Joseph Smith was tested and found worthy to be the translator of the Book of Mormon. To help him with the translation, Joseph found with the gold plates 'a curious instrument which the ancients called Urim and Thummim, which consisted of two transparent stones set in a rim of a bow fastened to a breastplate.'
"Joseph also used an egg-shaped, brown rock for translating called a seer stone. The translating was done at Peter Whitmer’s home, a friend of the Prophet’s where Oliver Cowdery, Emma Smith (Joseph’s wife), one of the Whitmers, or Martin Harris wrote down the words spoken by the Prophet as soon as they were made known to him.
"Martin Harris said that on the seer stone 'sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by [the one writing them down] and when finished [that person] would say "written;" and if correctly written, the sentence would disappear and another take its place; but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates.'
"Even with the help of the Urim and Thummim and the seer stone, it wasn’t easy to translate the sacred record. It required the Prophet’s greatest concentration and spiritual strength."
(Ref. https://www.lds.org/friend/1974/09/a-peaceful-heart?lang=eng)
 
Have Mormons been explaning to your daughter about "'a curious instrument...called Urim and Thummim, which consisted of two transparent stones set in a rim of a bow fastened to a breastplate"? Probably not.
 
Here's what Mormon scripture (written by Joseph Smith) says about the "Urim and Thummim": 
 
6. The angels do not reside on a planet like this earth;
 
7. But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord.
 
8. The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim.
 
9. This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it;
 
The LDS Church's scriptural reference for this quote is: Doctrine and Covenants, Section 130, verses 6-9 (ref. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/130.6-9?lang=eng).
 
Has the LDS Church or any Mormons informed your daughter that 'Prophet' Joseph Smith was a polygamist who pursued teenage girls, single women, and married women, and made several of them his plural wives? See http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/ for details. As well, the LDS Church's online genealogy record for Smith shows many of his wives (scroll down toward the bottom of the record at https://familysearch.org/search/trees#count=20&query=+givenname:Joseph +surname:Smith +birth_place:"Sharon, Vermont" +birth_year:1805-1805&collection_id=(2 3) to see the partial list of JS' wives).  
 
One of the females listed as his spouses is "Helen Mar Kimball." Who was she? (Your daughter won't know.) The 14-year-old daughter of Heber Kimball, who was Joseph Smith's priesthood subordinate (and a Mormon apostle in the early church). How old was JS when he was going after young Helen? Thirty-seven - and he already had several wives.
 
Ask your daughter: Why did Joseph Smith, the founding 'prophet' of the Mormon Church go after girls young enough to be his daughters when he was already married (14-year-old Nancy Winchester was another of his victims - ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/33-NancyWinchester.htm).
 
Why did JS pursue the wives of 11 Mormon men? (They are listed at http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/).
 
Latter-day Saints naively believe that none of Joseph Smith's polygamous marriages involved sex, but here's what happened to his first teenage plural wife (a servant girl in his home), Fanny Alger:
 
"Joseph kept his marriage to Fanny out of the view of the public, and his wife Emma.  Chauncey Webb recounts Emma’s later discovery of the relationship:  'Emma was furious, and drove the girl, who was unable to conceal the consequences of her celestial relation with the prophet, out of her house'." (Ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/02-FannyAlger.htm).
 
The LDS Church's online genealogy record shows the marriage between JS and Fanny Alger at https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/SP82-WTV. His first and only legal wife was Emma - ref. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Smith).
 
Another of JS' female teenage victims was Lucy Walker. Her mother died in 1841, followed by one of her sisters. What did 'Prophet' Joseph Smith then do? Sent her father far away to the eastern U.S. on a mission - and 'saved' Lucy for his home. Here's more info.:
 
While living in the Smith home, Lucy remembers: “In the year 1842 President Joseph Smith sought an interview with me, and said, ‘I have a message for you, I have been commanded of God to take another wife, and you are the woman.’  My astonishment knew no bounds. This announcement was indeed a thunderbolt to me...He asked me if I believed him to be a Prophet of God. ‘Most assuredly I do I replied.’...He fully Explained to me the principle of plural or celestial marriage.  Said this principle was again to be restored for the benefit of the human family.  That it would prove an everlasting blessing to my father’s house.”
 
“What do you have to Say?” Joseph asked.  “Nothing” Lucy replied, “How could I speak, or what would I say?”  Joseph encouraged her to pray: “tempted and tortured beyond endureance until life was not desirable. Oh that the grave would kindly receive me that I might find rest on the bosom of my dear mother...Why – Why Should I be chosen from among thy daughters, Father I am only a child in years and experience.  No mother to council; no father near to tell me what to do, in this trying hour.  Oh let this bitter cup pass. And thus I prayed in the agony of my soul.”
 
Joseph told Lucy that the marriage would have to be secret, but that he would acknowledge her as his wife, “beyond the Rocky Mountains”.  He then gave Lucy an ultimatum, “It is a command of God to you.  I will give you untill to-morrow to decide this matter. If you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you.”
 
Lucy married Joseph on May 1, 1843.  At the time, Emma was in St. Louis buying supplies for the Nauvoo hotel.  Lucy remembers, “Emma Smith was not present and she did not consent to the marriage; she did not know anything about it at all.” 
 
(Ref. http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/23-LucyWalker.htm)
 
So, while hard-working Emma Smith was away on business, her philandering 'prophet' husband was going after a teenage girl less than half his age - and let Emma, his legitimate wife, in the dark about marrying young Lucy (and having sex with her, as her memoir certainly alluded to.)
 
Here's what Mormon scripture - a 'revelation' from 'the Lord' to JS, and reportedly written by him in the early 1840s - says:
 
61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse [marry] another, and the first [wife] give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
 
62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.
 
(Ref. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132.61-62?lang=eng).
 
According to the LDS Church's summary for this section of Mormon scripture (Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132), it was a "Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant and the principle of plural marriage. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, evidence indicates that some of the principles involved in this revelation were known by the Prophet as early as 1831." (Ref. www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132?lang=eng)
 
But one of the 'principles' that 'the Lord' reputedly 'revealed' to JS was that the first wife HAD to "give her consent" before her virgins-pursuing husband could marry another virgin. But Lucy Walker had recorded that “Emma Smith was not present and she did not consent to the marriage; she did not know anything about it at all.” 
 
In Mormonism, disobeying a commandment from 'the Lord' (Jesus Christ), particularly one related to marriage and sex, is grounds for excommunication. You can ask your daughter: "So, why wasn't 'Prophet' Joseph Smith excommunicated from the Mormon Church for adultery?"
 
Also bear in mind that each wife of the 11 Mormon husbands that JS targeted and made his wives WERE vowed to their husband and as married/vowed women, were assuredly NOT virgins. Again, Mormonism's 'prophet of the Restoration' was guilty of adultery, per LDS scripture and a 'revelation' written by JS, no less!
 
If your daughter is going to get involved in cultic, patriarchal Mormonism (a BIG waste of her time, really), she needs to do her homework. I recommend the following:
 
"In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith": http://signaturebooks.com/2010/02/in-sacred-loneliness-the-plural-wives-of-joseph-smith/
 
"Mormon Polygamy" (still part of the body of doctrine of the LDS Church, BTW): http://signaturebooks.com/2010/02/mormon-polygamy-a-history/
 
The 'motherlode' of Mormonism-related info. is at http://www.utlm.org/navtopicalindex.htm
 
"The Changing World of Mormonism" is important to read for anyone getting involved in the religion: http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changecontents.htm
 
Retired lawyer Richard Packham, who lives in Oregon and was raised in Mormonism, has written/published: "TO THOSE WHO ARE INVESTIGATING 'MORMONISM'" (ref. http://packham.n4m.org/tract.htm). If your daughter reads nothing else about the LDS Church and religion, she should read his article.
 
There's a ton of info. online about Mormonism. Your daughter deserves to know the full truth about it before she commits to joining.
 
Best wishes!
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“It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry.”—Thomas Paine, intellectual, philosopher, writer, and one of the Founding Fathers of the United States of America.


   


Posted: 15 May 2013 10:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
clauster
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Hi Wildman, I'm in the UK too, an ex-mormon of several years but with a fanatically Mormon family.
 
There are good points to the Mormon community in the UK. Because Mormons are such a minority wherever you are in the UK, there is a strong sense of community. Most Mormon's here share real friendships with each other. Mostly, they give each other real practical help and support. I'm guessing that as your daughter is a Bieber fan, she's teenaged - rest assured, Mormon youths will not be leading her to drugs, binge drinking or sexual depravity.
 
On the down-side they are fanatically right-wing. Homosexuality? NO! Mixed race relationships? NO! A lot of Mormons I know believe a tory vote is the only acceptable vote. Take your British view of how we view right wing Americans and magnify it to caricature level - then go a bit right of that and you've got a British mormon. Ideologically, if they weren't such a tiny minority here they'd be dangerous.
 
I love my parents, my brother, his wife, my niece and nephews dearly. But I have to avoid them on Sundays when they're at their most rabid. Even the rest of the week I have to mind the boundaries carefully. Immigrants? Change the subject now. Sexuality? Change the subject now. We have a great relationship, but I work hard to manage it.
 
If your daughter does join the Mormons, one piece of advice I'll ask you to hold on to is to remember that she is under enormous pressure to behave as she does. She'll be expected to try to convert you too. Hold on to the fact you're not under pressure to convert her back. It took me years to realise this, during which time my relationships with some of the people I love most in this world suffered enormously. I used to work with mentally ill people suffering severe and enduring schizophrenia. I learned not to challenge or accept their delusions. The same works with Mormons. Let them get it off their chest, then get on with real life with them. Just remember that religious/political/social issues are not for a free exchange of views. She HAS to push the party line, you don't.


   


Posted: 16 May 2013 11:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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lunaverse
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Hopefully you're not being inundated with too much information. :)
 
Definitely check out Steve Hassan's site on cults, and also, on mine, I write a lot about mind control and how the LDS Church uses it: http://www.rationalrevelation.com/articles.html 
 
Your daughter is currently being subjected to some of these techniques, especially "Love Bombing", which you can read about here: http://www.rationalrevelation.com/trmethods.html
 
I wish I had more of them written about on my website. For now, these should help, and hopefully you can use these to plant seeds of doubt. It's tricky, because if you push too hard, it might well backfire, and push her further into it. You want her able to think criticially right now, and ask hard questions of herself and of them. They're going to be planting thought-terminating cliches, and one is "The Church is persecuted by hateful people who are influenced by Satan, because they hate us and hate God". I'm one of those people. So are all the people who have written truthful historical accounts of the Church and anyone else criticizing them. Under that influence, it may be hard for her to see your comments objectively, the way she might take your advice about buying a car or choosing a job.
 
You might have the best luck asking questions more than telling her things. And making indirect comments that help spark her own criticial thinking abilities, like, "Just because you feel good about something doesn't mean it's right.. remember that time you felt good about X and it didn't turn out so well?" And, "Why do they ask you to only go to their own sources for confirmation of the truth of their church? What if you were buying a house, and the agent told you not to talk to the former owner, and told you not to look up property records? Isn't that weird?"
 
If she talks about feeling the Spirit, tell her about people from many other religions who get warm, fuzzy, uplifting, good feelings about their faith... even people from dangerous religions that you hear about doing horrible things... so it's not confirmation that the LDS Church is true.. that would make all religions equally true, even the bad ones.
 
Remember the missionaries themselves are nice people and are sincerely acting according to what they think is good and right. They aren't aware that they are using mind control techniques.. they're just doing what they've been told, and this stuff is as real to them as bacon and eggs. 
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Writing a book, Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil on Mormon Mind Control
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Posted: 16 May 2013 05:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
Celestial Wedgie
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Wildman, I hope your daughter redirects soon.  In my view, Mormonism has many good points, but on the whole it is--still just my opinion here--harmful to individuals and society.
 
What are her personal interests?  Chances are that the LDS church has taken a stand against them.  How many earrings does she have in each ear?  Mormons are encouraged to have only one earring.  Does she like coffee or tea?  They're forbidden.  It might also help to appeal to youthful vanity: get her to look at the garments required of temple-goers (those who have advanced in their commitment to the church).  If she has an intact creep detector you could try having her watch the LDS temple ceremony online. 
 
Take comfort in the odds.  At this point your daughter is investigating the church; but investigators do not join.  Approximately 9 out of 10 people who convert to Mormonism give it up within a year or two.
 
If she does join, go to her baptism.  Ask whatever questions you have.  Keep the communication open and loving.  Be proud of her for having the courage to follow her own heart.  She'll need that courage later, once she realizes the fraud and trap.
 
Good luck to you, your daughter, and your relationship.


   


            
 
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