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Please join us on Mormon Reformation Day 2013  
Posted: 02 October 2013 11:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Fred W. Anson
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Please join us joining us in making your voice heard on Mormon Reformation Day this coming October 31st.
http://mormonreformationday2013.wordpress.com/

On Thursday, October 31, 2013 between the hours of 12:00AM-11:59PM in their local timezone, active members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as well as disaffected members and other supporters will be posting a copy of the most current 95 LDS Theses across the internet and onto the doors of their local churches to protest the church’s refusal to address its covered-up history as well as it’s scripturally incongruent and often harmful behavior.
The project is organized by Mormon Reformation, a protest movement which aims to follow protestant reformer Martin Luther, who in 1517 posted a list of Ninety-Five Theses for consideration, discussion, and possible action on the door of the Castle Church of Wittenberg. Within two weeks, it was distributed by the press throughout Germany, exposed the corruption of the Catholic Church, and started what came to be known as the Protestant Reformation. Now, modern protesters claim, it is time for a new, Mormon Reformation.
Why Does Mormon Reformation Feel a Protest Is Necessary?
The protest is intended to be a peaceful, non-confrontational, and anonymous way to achieve the following two objectives:
1) Educating the membership of the church on controversial, revised, and hidden aspects of church doctrine, history, fundamental claims, and practices.
2) Influencing church leaders to officially address topics, behaviors and institutional issues that they have dodged, dismissed, and covered up for too long.
Event information and a printable copy of the 95 LDS Theses can be found at: http://MormonReformationDay2013.org/
The group discussion board for this event is: https://www.facebook.com/groups/mormonreformationday2013/
And the group event page is: https://www.facebook.com/events/591564934215617/
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Posted: 03 October 2013 02:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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heretic situation
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I've been thinking I'll mail out the theses to people in my ward. If people accepted the truth, I'd probably go back to church. Let's see what happens. 

   


Posted: 03 October 2013 05:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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If you take away everything from the church that is not true, what do you have left that's worth salvaging?
 
If you accept everything that has been covered up as true, what are the "good parts" that are left?
 
A social club?
 
"Reformation" makes no sense to me.
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“The recognition of illusion is also its’ ending. Its’ survival depends on your mistaking it for reality.”  - Eckhart Tolle


   


Posted: 03 October 2013 07:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
Fred W. Anson
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heretic situation:
I've been thinking I'll mail out the theses to people in my ward. If people accepted the truth, I'd probably go back to church. Let's see what happens.
 
That's awesome! 
Email has been a big means of distribution in past campaigns. One guy even emailed a copy to his Bishop and his local Stake President and got and "interesting" response.  Most of us don't have that much chutzpah but still ...
Others have sent copies via email to their family members.  Sometimes it's evoked some good conversations, other times it's been met with hostility. The reaction, of course, seems to vary from person-to-person based on where they're at when they receive it.
So, yeah, email is a great way to "post" these on virtual doors. 
And one thing I always tell those who object to the 95 LDS Theses is that if the church made appropriate changes based on them at the very least it would give Mormon Critics far less ammo!
;-) 


   


Posted: 03 October 2013 09:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
Fred W. Anson
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Adversarys Advocate:
If you take away everything from the church that is not true, what do you have left that's worth salvaging?
 
If you accept everything that has been covered up as true, what are the "good parts" that are left?
 
A social club?
 
"Reformation" makes no sense to me.
 
 I understand.  Even some of the people who worked on the 95 LDS Theses felt the same way.  But as one of them (who was STRONLGLY in the "Destruction not Reformation" club) later said (paraphrasing), "You know if it reforms it might just self-destruct too. At the very least it will probably be smaller."
And as another person (an ExMormon who's also certified Cult Exit Counselor) told me just yesterday: "I'd have no complaints about an LDS Church without these controlling aspects, so I support a reformation."  Of course she wouldn't be going back either, but you get the point.
So even if you're in the "Total Destruction" club I hope that you'll join us on October 31st in making your voice held.  And heck, if you don't like our 95 LDS Theses do your own "Total Destruction" version and post them instead, that's cool too! 


   


Posted: 03 October 2013 09:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
Fred W. Anson
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BTW, that's my UNofficial personal response to that objection.  Here's the official one from the FAQ page:
Q: Why are you trying to reform something that’s so broken that it can never be reformed?
A: We’re not quite that cynical – we still see great potential and promise in the LDS Church.
However, right now there are issues keeping the LDS Church from reaching it’s full potential as a force for good in the earth. And we think that taking action on the issues addressed in the 95 LDS Theses would be a good start in that direction.
http://mormonreformationday2013.wordpress.com/faq/
And as we said in the closing statement on the FAQ page:
But above all else . . .
Please don’t let our failings (be they real or imagined) keep you from joining us in making your voice heard on Mormon Reformation Day this coming October 31st – post a set of 95 LDS Theses.

I hope that this helps clarify things a bit.
Remember, if we don't get broad participation on this it will be  

   


Posted: 05 October 2013 09:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Klatu
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Fred W. Anson:
A: We’re not quite that cynical – we still see great potential and promise in the LDS Church.

 
Me too: sell off everything and feed the hungry.  "Potential" and "promise" beyond that?  Not so much.


   


Posted: 05 October 2013 01:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
Fred W. Anson
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Klatu:
Fred W. Anson:
A: We’re not quite that cynical – we still see great potential and promise in the LDS Church.

 
Me too: sell off everything and feed the hungry.  "Potential" and "promise" beyond that?  Not so much.
 
Well perhaps if they acknowledged and responded to Thesis #70 they could be of benefit there: 
70. It publicly (and loudly) trumpets its philanthropic work when compared to other churches its per capita outlay is less than what smaller, less wealthy, less organized religious organizations spend: “A study co-written by Cragun and recently published in Free Inquiry estimates that the Mormon Church donates only about 0.7 percent of its annual income to charity; the United Methodist Church gives about 29 percent.”
(Caroline Winter, “How The Mormons Make Money”, Business Week; July 18, 2012)
 
To be clear, not everyone on the 95 LDS Theses team on was in the "reformation not destruction" camp.  We had a quite a few people in the "total destruction" camp.
And even those in the first camp acknowledged that if the LDS Church doesn't reform it probably self-destruct on it's own anyhow. However, we were willing to lay it down temporary in the hope of doing some good through this.
As we said on the FAQ page:
Please don’t let our failings (be they real or imagined) keep you from joining us in making your voice heard on Mormon Reformation Day this coming October 31st – post a set of 95 LDS Theses. 
 
And if that means you post a custom "Total Destruction Edition" then so be it.  But whatever you do please let your voice be heard on October 31st.  


   


Posted: 08 October 2013 09:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
Fred W. Anson
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LDS Thesis #94: It hypocritically defines polemic arguments as “persecution” and then engages in polemics with its critics and those of other faiths. For example, consider how it trains its missionaries to speak of other churches:

“Without the Apostles, over time the doctrines were corrupted, and unauthorized changes were made in Church organization and priesthood ordinances, such as baptism and conferring the gift of the Holy Ghost. Without revelation and priesthood authority, people relied on human wisdom to interpret the scriptures and the principles and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

False ideas were taught as truth. Much of the knowledge of the true character and nature of God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost was lost. The doctrines of faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost became distorted or forgotten. The priesthood authority given to Christ’s Apostles was no longer present on the earth. This apostasy eventually led to the emergence of many churches.”
(“Preach My Gospel: A Guide to Missionary Service”; Official LDS Church Missionary Training curriculum, p.35)
http://MormonReformationDay2013.org

SUPPORTING EVIDENCE: 
Perhaps satirist "Spencer L. Jensen" can demonstrate the example given in this thesis better than we did: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Cx99IWCeAg

And the example verbiage from the LDS Missionary Training materials is now even more ironic since, in his Saturday morning October 5th, 2013 general conference address LDS Apostle and member of the First Presidency, Dieter F. Uchtdorf made the following statement: 

“Faith is to hope for things which are not seen, but which are true (Alma 32:21),” he said. “Therefore, please, first doubt your doubts, before you doubt your faith.”
(Dieter F. Uchtdorf: 'Come, Join With Us') 

So apparently, the only faith that one isn't supposed to question is Mormonism. And when those of others challenge Mormon beliefs that's "persecution" but when LDS Missionaries challenge the faith of others it's "doing the Lord's work". 

As we recall, this is known in the vernacular as "hypocrisy". 
 
LDS Thesis #94  

   


Posted: 09 October 2013 10:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
Fred W. Anson
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The LDS Church “Quorum of Twelve Apostles The Celestial Polygamists: Dallin H. Oaks, front row, second from right; L. Tom Perry, front row, second from left; Russell M. Nelson, front row, third from left (photo credit LDS Church newsroom)
The LDS Church “Quorum of Twelve Apostles
The Celestial Polygamists: Dallin H. Oaks, front row, second from right; L. Tom Perry, front row, second from left; Russell M. Nelson, front row, third from left
(photo credit LDS Church newsroom)
LDS Theses #52: It [the LDS Church] hypocritically claims that polygamy has no place in the contemporary LDS Church even though Joseph Smith's revelation on polygamy (Doctrine & Covenants 132) is still canonized scripture and "Celestial Polygamy" (being eternally married to at least one more woman after being widowed or divorced) is practiced. Currently, three widowed Mormon Apostles (Dallin H. Oaks, L. Tom Perry, and Russell M. Nelson) are Celestial Polygamists.
(see http://mormonreformationday2013.wordpress.com/2013/09/30/the-95-lds-theses/ )
SUPPORTING EVIDENCE:
From "What is Celestial Polygamy?" by Bill McKeever:
'Having more than one wife in the "here and now" is grounds for excommunication from the LDS Church; however, the possibility of having more than one wife in the "hereafter" is still very much a part of the Mormon culture. According to an article in the April 20, 2008 edition of the Salt Lake Tribune:
"Though the LDS Church had disavowed polygamy, it is still enshrined in Mormon scripture (Doctrine & Covenants 132) and some believe it will one day be re-established, if not on Earth, at least in heaven. In his quasi-official 1966 book Mormon Doctrine, which remains in print, the late LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie wrote that `the holy practice will commence again after the Second Coming and the ushering in of the millennium.' And by policy, men can be `sealed' for eternity in LDS temple rites to more than one wife, though women are permitted only a single sealing. Three of the church's current apostles, for example, were widowed and remarried. Each will have two wives in the eternities."
("Modern-day Mormons disavow polygamy";http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8989865 )
Note carefully the last sentence, "Three of the church's current apostles, for example, were widowed and remarried. Each will have two wives in the eternities."
The three Mormon Apostles referred to in this article are Dallin H. Oaks, L. Tom Perry, and Russell M. Nelson. All three men are widowers, and all three men have been "sealed" to a second wife.
During a devotional address Mormon Apostle Dallin H. Oaks gave at Brigham Young University on January 29, 2002, he confirmed that he fully anticipates spending eternity with Kristen M. McCain, whom he was sealed to in the Salt Lake Temple on August 25, 2000. Oaks' first wife, June Dixon Oaks, was sealed to him in marriage on June 24, 1952. She died in 1998. In his BYU talk, Oaks said, "When I was 66, my wife June died of cancer. Two years later I married Kristen McMain, the eternal companion who now stands at my side."
(see http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=229 )
What is the point of being "sealed" for eternity? Speaking in General Conference in 1994, Seventy Charles Didier stated:
"This [marriage] union is solemnized by the authority of the everlasting priesthood into a holy and sacred ordinance, the temple sealing. It is also called the new and everlasting covenant of marriage, and its purpose is to bind couples together on earth and bring them to a fulness of exaltation in the kingdom of God in the hereafter."
("Remember Your Covenants," Ensign (Conference Edition), May 1994, p.42; http://www.josephsmith.net/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=ac04425e0848b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD).
In a January 28, 1999 City Weekly article titled "Only for Eternity," author Andrea Moore Emmett quoted LDS Church spokesman Dale Bills who said, "We have to see sealing ordinances as a promise pending faithfulness and yes, some will live polygamy."
Mormon women who find the teaching of celestial polygamy unsettling will probably not find comfort in a May 31, 2006 LDS Newsroom statement that reads:
"Question: Is polygamy gone forever from the Church?
We only know what the Lord has revealed through His prophets, that plural marriage has been stopped in the Church. Anything else is speculative and unwarranted."
(see http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/polygamy-questions-and-answers-with-the-los-angeles-times )
If it is really speculative and unwarranted, what is the point of Mormon widowers being sealed in Mormon temples? If temple sealings of this nature have significance in the hereafter, how can the LDS Church honestly say "plural marriage has been stopped"?'
(source http://www.mrm.org/celestial-polygamy ) 

   


Posted: 09 October 2013 11:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
Fred W. Anson
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LDS Thesis #30: It [the LDS Church] has created a culture whereby fear of their family’s reaction puts pressure on disenchanted LDS Missionaries to continue with their missions whether they want to or not.
SUPPORTING EVIDENCE:
Don't you wish all Returned Missionaries (RMs) were as honest as this one?
"So why did I serve? To argue that I was immune to the institutional and social pressures overestimates my integrity. I served a mission because I was too much of a coward to stay home. I didn't want to be a missionary, but staying home didn't seem like a viable option. I didn't want to disappoint my family or friends, and I didn't want to carry around the social stigma of not serving. I didn't even give serious consideration to the idea of staying home. Because everyone goes, so I did, too. I became a missionary for the LDS church.
...
I left on my mission unsure if I was doing the right thing, but I knew I was doing something in God’s name – whether He wanted it or not. I was terrified by the prospect of becoming a missionary – but just as terrified as choosing to stay home."
(http://mormonmatters.org/2009/07/25/why ... n-collins/ )
And don't you wish the LDS Church was as honest with prospective missionaries as the Future Missionary website is?
"We’ve all heard RM’s [aka "Returned Missionaries] say “It was the best 2 years of my life.” That may or may not be the case for you, but I can guarantee that it’ll the hardest 2 years of your life, both physically and mentally. I’ve seen guys on the mission fall over from exhaustion, develop medical issues that will never go away, and be bedridden from mental breakdowns. I’m not sure if it’s a selective memory or if they’re trying to impress, but I’ve never heard a single missionary refer to it as the best time of their life until after they’re home. A mission is tough!"
(see http://futuremissionary.com/10-things-e ... ould-know/ )
And don't you wish that the LDS Church took better care of it's missionaries while they're in the field?
"Deep depression, mental breakdowns, and other stress-induced sicknesses are disturbingly common among missionaries. This comes from a perfect storm of extreme social pressure, loneliness, physical exhaustion, and not being able to take a mental break. Though the church is great at helping spiritually, they tend to lack expertise in physical and emotional help needed."
(see http://futuremissionary.com/whats-an-ld ... ike/#pre04 )
'Something that has taken me a long time to recover from and talk about openly, however, is the way my Mission President treated me during the time I was sick. I was an office secretary for 9 months of my mission, meaning that I saw the president on a daily basis. I did much of his scheduling, paid his bills, wrote his emails, and answered his phone calls.
When I caught Dengue fever, he saw me quickly shrink 15 pounds. I locked myself in the bathroom directly across from his office over a dozen times a day due to the fever’s diarrhea (the other secretaries started tallying my trips, 24 in one day was the record). I asked him if I could go the hospital and was told that if missionaries went to the hospital every time they got diarrhea, they’d all be there. I stopped eating, started getting chills, losing hair, became pale, and eventually passed out in sacrament meeting. My companion called the President’s wife, who reluctantly allowed me to go to the hospital.
The next day my president called me into his office to tell me that as soon as the hospital bill came, I would be personally paying it. I was absolutely forbidden to go back, with or without his wife’s permission. I was too weak to argue. The bill came to a total of 25 U.S. dollars, which I didn’t show him. My dengue fever worsened and I was later informed I had the most lethal strain there is. The closest he came to commenting on it was laughing that I “looked like I’d seen a ghost”.'
(see http://purpleheartrms.com/drews-story/ )
But, most of all, don't you wish that ill or disenchanted LDS Missionaries could return home to acceptance, comfort, and care rather than social ostacization, scorn, and judgment?
Who knows, maybe, just maybe, someday they will. 

   


Posted: 09 October 2013 02:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler
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Klatu:
Fred W. Anson:
A: We’re not quite that cynical – we still see great potential and promise in the LDS Church.

 
Me too: sell off everything and feed the hungry.  "Potential" and "promise" beyond that?  Not so much.
 
 You know, how is this not the best option.  Lets just take over the next 100 years and compare the following two scenarios:
 
How much good will the Church accomplish over the next 100 years as it SLOWLY changes
 
compared to
 
How much good would the Church do over the next 100 yearsif it totally liquidated the over 40 billion it has and helped the feed the poor, heal the sick, educate kids etc etc etc.
 
How is liquidation not the best option by like a goddamn mile? 
 Signature
They say that I am crazy
My life wasting on this road
That time will find my dreams
Scared or dead and cold
But I heard there is a light
Drawing me to reach an end
And when I reach there, I’ll turn back
And you and I can begin again

200 More Miles
Cowboy Junkies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SwJM5yohb0


   


Posted: 09 October 2013 05:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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dave (e_nomo)
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Lloyd Dobler:
Klatu:
Fred W. Anson:
A: We’re not quite that cynical – we still see great potential and promise in the LDS Church.

 
Me too: sell off everything and feed the hungry.  "Potential" and "promise" beyond that?  Not so much.
 
 You know, how is this not the best option.  Lets just take over the next 100 years and compare the following two scenarios:
 
How much good will the Church accomplish over the next 100 years as it SLOWLY changes
 
compared to
 
How much good would the Church do over the next 100 yearsif it totally liquidated the over 40 billion it has and helped the feed the poor, heal the sick, educate kids etc etc etc.
 
How is liquidation not the best option by like a goddamn mile? 
Agree, it is BY FAR the best option.  But it's not going to happen.  
It's just not.  Even if Tom Monson himself tells people he's a fake, many (most?) will still stay.  Look at the evidence of the BoA - it's clearly a fraud, and yet they stay.  
 
Slow change for the better?  That just might happen.  
 Signature
As Neo reaches for the red pill Morpheus warns Neo
“Remember, all I’m offering is the truth. Nothing more.”


   


            
 
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How LDS Church members can help themselves and loved ones deal with doubt  
Posted: 29 August 2013 11:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Jeff Ricks
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From a Deseret News article:
 
"David Marsh opened his BYU Campus Education Week class with a question. “How many of you know someone struggling with doubt?” he asked the audience. Nearly everyone reached a hand toward the ceiling."
 
This is wonderful to see! It's more indication that the Church is hurting, as it should be.
 
The article: How LDS Church members can help themselves and loved ones deal with doubt 
 
Another excerpt:
 
"Throughout his three classes, Marsh shared 10 principles that can help those dealing with doubt find faith:


1- It's OK to experience doubts, but don’t let them linger.
2- Fortify your faith in Jesus Christ.
3- Seek to resolve doubts through sincere prayer.
4- Increase your knowledge of truth.
5- Remember that truth is learned a little at a time.
6- Doubt your doubts before you doubt your beliefs.
7- Consult reliable and authoritative sources.
8- Consider the motives of the source.
9- Detect half-truths and lack of context.
10- Neither science nor religion can answer all question."
 
The last one is particularly desperate. If science and religion can't provide answers then I guess that leaves make-believe (a.k.a. faith). 
 
 
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Posted: 29 August 2013 12:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Woody
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Jeff Ricks:
From a Deseret News article:
 
"David Marsh opened his BYU Campus Education Week class with a question. “How many of you know someone struggling with doubt?” he asked the audience. Nearly everyone reached a hand toward the ceiling."
 
This is wonderful to see! It's more indication that the Church is hurting, as it should be.
 
The article: How LDS Church members can help themselves and loved ones deal with doubt 
 
Another excerpt:
 
"Throughout his three classes, Marsh shared 10 principles that can help those dealing with doubt find faith:


1- It's OK to experience doubts, but don’t let them linger.
2- Fortify your faith in Jesus Christ.
3- Seek to resolve doubts through sincere prayer.
4- Increase your knowledge of truth.
5- Remember that truth is learned a little at a time.
6- Doubt your doubts before you doubt your beliefs.
7- Consult reliable and authoritative sources.
8- Consider the motives of the source.
9- Detect half-truths and lack of context.
10- Neither science nor religion can answer all question."
 
The last one is particularly desparate. If science and religion can't provide answers then I guess that leaves make-believe (a.k.a. faith). 
 
 
 
Pretty easy to turn this around:
 
1- It's OK to experience doubts blind faith, but don’t let them it linger.
 
2- Fortify your faith doubt in Jesus Christ myths and legends.
 
3- Seek to resolve doubts through sincere prayer  thought and research.
 
4- Increase your knowledge of truth.  No change necessary here
 
5- Remember that truth is learned a little at a time. Here either
 
6- Doubt Believe your doubts before you doubt trust your beliefs.
 
7- Consult reliable and authoritative sources.  But only if they are verifiable or peer reviewed

8- Consider the motives of the source. AMEN BROTHER
 
9- Detect half-truths and lack of context. Funny, I was thinking the same thing
 
10- Neither science nor religion can answer all question.  So do not hesitate to doubt what cannot be proven scientifically

As an aside, the word 'doubt' is one that I always look at funny, like it should be spelled differently.
 
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Posted: 29 August 2013 12:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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PicsOrItDidntHappen
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I think most of their 1-10 list are pretty bleak. I doubt that there will be a single principal where faith and not having all the answers is taught as THE ANSWER to doubts.
 
 I think that I already see a few paradoxes where a true fact seeker is going to get hung up.
 
1. Seek to resolve your doubts with sincere prayer. 
Yes, that would be nice, but an answer to prayers does not make something true or untrue. The answer is completely subjective to the person offering the prayer.
 
2. Fortify your faith in Jesus Christ. I guarantee that this principal will focus on the Jesus Christ as taught in the BofM and by Joseph Smith. To someone who actually doubts, that Jesus Christ can be a completely different person.
 
3. It is ok to experience doubts, but don't let them linger. Wait a minute! Doesn't D&C say that if you pray about something that is wrong and untrue that the thought will disipate and that you will have a stupor of thought and forget the wrong thing which you were thinking? According to D&C, if is an illegitimate doubt, you should completely forget it after a simple prayer.
 
4. Increase your knowledge of truth . Let me guess, we are going to do this by praying and reading fictitious or biased books? No thank you.
 
5. Consider the motives of the source. Let’s see, what does a postmo or any other regular person have to gain from you leaving the church? Nothing! You’re not gonna devote your new found free time to them! You’re not going to pay your tithes to them! You’re not going to convince others of what you were taught for them! However, the church does have a great deal to lose every time a member walks away.
 
I could go on... But I should get back to work. I'm just saying, I don’t think that this class would have helped me before I stopped going.
 
Let's see, principal eleven should be...
 
11. Its okay to you plug ears and scream the lyrics to "Praise to the Man" when a doubt enters your mind...Even in public.
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Posted: 29 August 2013 12:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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3- Seek to resolve doubts through sincere prayer.
 
Here's the LDS formula for that: First, we will tell you what to believe and what the answer to your prayer will be. Then you can pray about it. If you do not get answers to your prayers that affirm what we already told you, then your prayers were not sincere enough, or you are doing something wrong.
 
Ask me how I know................
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Posted: 29 August 2013 12:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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From the article: 
 
"David Marsh opened his BYU Campus Education Week class with a question.
 
"How many of you know someone struggling with doubt?" he asked the audience.
 
Nearly everyone reached a hand toward the ceiling."
 
 
The church has a real freaking problem on their hands.  There is going to be blood in the streets before this is all over this because the church is not going to go down without making it as painful and hard as possible. 
 
 
 
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Posted: 29 August 2013 01:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Pray until your knees turn blue....(that won't happen either.)
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 29 August 2013 01:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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I did all of those things and they led me out.  I dropped my belief in Jesus soon after.   That list may actually be more of a catalyst for others who are doubting to continue questioning until they can see answers coming from truth and reality and not from emotions and self proclaimed authority figures.  Worked for me anyway. 

   


Posted: 29 August 2013 01:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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"[Marsh] listed six things, both online and in real life, that can contribute to an individual’s doubts [about the LDS Church]: [1] unfulfilled expectations false promises made by false prophets, seers, and revelators, [2] encounters with new information that has been systematically hidden by the Church, [3] anti-Mormon literature that doesn't match the Church's official, sanitized history because it is truthful, [4] educational pursuits, [5] differences of opinion between members about what (exactly) is doctrine that cannot be resolved because general authorities regularly change their minds and [6] unsettling interactions with other members or with leaders of the church that clearly demonstrate that Church leaders and members are definitely not guided by the Spirit of Truth."
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“And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations.” Alma 37:3


   


Posted: 29 August 2013 01:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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I often have thought that if the "Prophets/Seers/Revelators" were real, they'd get inspired to come visit me personally and present Jesus in the...flesh...so to speak. Just to show me they could do it. But of course, they'd say "bad.. bad you want a sign."
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 29 August 2013 01:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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kinderhooker:
"[Marsh] listed six things, both online and in real life, that can contribute to an individual’s doubts [about the LDS Church]: [1] unfulfilled expectations false promises made by false prophets, seers, and revelators, [2] encounters with new information that has been systematically hidden by the Church, [3] anti-Mormon literature that doesn't match the Church's official, sanitized history because it is truthful, [4] educational pursuits, [5] differences of opinion between members about what (exactly) is doctrine that cannot be resolved because general authorities regularly change their minds and [6] unsettling interactions with other members or with leaders of the church that clearly demonstrate that Church leaders and members are definitely not guided by the Spirit of Truth."
 
Another contradiction:  "Obtain as much education as possible". (from the purposes of the Aaronic Pristhood, I think)
 
.....except when that education teaches you about widely accepted scientific principles that contradict the basic teachings of the church. Then, you are expected to ignore your education (and your educators?)and just rely on your faith.
 
If you major in genetics, history, psychology, linguistics, theology, archaeology, or paleontology, you should minor in mental gymnastics.
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Posted: 29 August 2013 01:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Does anyone else get some seriously mixed messages here?
“Science is moving quickly and changing and our knowledge is changing rapidly and we need to understand that. So be careful about that. Be humble about what you think you know right now because it may change tomorrow.”
~David B. Marsh
 
“Hold on to what you know to be true. When people are dealing with a doubt, sometimes they feel like they have to throw everything out. You don’t need to do that. Doubts are evidences of belief. You can’t doubt something if you don’t believe something.”
~David B. Marsh
 
“Please don’t hyperventilate if from time to time issues arise that need to be examined, understood and resolved. They do and they will. In this church, what we know will always trump what we do not know. And remember, in this world, everyone is to walk by faith.”
~Jeffrey R. Holland
I just can't figure out how Marsh thought it could make sense to include all these in one talk. I'm left to wonder how he expects me to differentiate amongst what I "think [I] know", what I "know", and what I "do not know". I think JRH and DBM need to be a bit more humble about what they think they know.
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“And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations.” Alma 37:3


   


Posted: 29 August 2013 01:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Adversarys Advocate:
kinderhooker:
"[Marsh] listed six things, both online and in real life, that can contribute to an individual’s doubts [about the LDS Church]: [1] unfulfilled expectations false promises made by false prophets, seers, and revelators, [2] encounters with new information that has been systematically hidden by the Church, [3] anti-Mormon literature that doesn't match the Church's official, sanitized history because it is truthful, [4] educational pursuits, [5] differences of opinion between members about what (exactly) is doctrine that cannot be resolved because general authorities regularly change their minds and [6] unsettling interactions with other members or with leaders of the church that clearly demonstrate that Church leaders and members are definitely not guided by the Spirit of Truth."
 
Another contradiction:  "Obtain as much education as possible". (from the purposes of the Aaronic Pristhood, I think)
 
.....except when that education teaches you about widely accepted scientific principles that contradict the basic teachings of the church. Then, you are expected to ignore your education (and your educators?)and just rely on your faith.
 
If you major in genetics, history, psychology, linguistics, theology, archaeology, or paleontology, you should minor in mental gymnastics.
 
Thanks for also pointing that one out. I forgot to notice it.
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“And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations.” Alma 37:3


   


Posted: 29 August 2013 02:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Note that the article doesn't tell you how to find truth, only how to "deal with" doubt.  
You'd think they'd be the same process, but clearly not.  
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“Remember, all I’m offering is the truth. Nothing more.”


   


Posted: 29 August 2013 02:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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howdimissthat
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kinderhooker:
Does anyone else get some seriously mixed messages here?
“Science is moving quickly and changing and our knowledge is changing rapidly and we need to understand that. So be careful about that. Be humble about what you think you know right now because it may change tomorrow.”
~David B. Marsh
 
“Hold on to what you know to be true. When people are dealing with a doubt, sometimes they feel like they have to throw everything out. You don’t need to do that. Doubts are evidences of belief. You can’t doubt something if you don’t believe something.”
~David B. Marsh
 
“Please don’t hyperventilate if from time to time issues arise that need to be examined, understood and resolved. They do and they will. In this church, what we know will always trump what we do not know. And remember, in this world, everyone is to walk by faith.”
~Jeffrey R. Holland
I just can't figure out how Marsh thought it could make sense to include all these in one talk. I'm left to wonder how he expects me to differentiate amongst what I "think [I] know", what I "know", and what I "do not know". I think JRH and DBM need to be a bit more humble about what they think they know.
 
The church's specialty is mixed messages.  Those mixed messages are thought stopping, confusing, and most members won't seriously compare the inconsistencies.  If they do they will then lean to their inspired leaders instead of trying to untangle the mess using their own thought processing because that is what they have been taught to do.
 
ETA:  The mixed messages will fill the need of all the membership, they will believe which ever teaching resonates with their own feelings and place less emphasis on the one that doesn't.  The church has met the needs of all members with their preaching of mixed messages and members are calmed knowing the church supports their personal feeling, the church is therefore true, the leaders inspired, and by the way any misunderstanding is the members fault.  
 


   


Posted: 29 August 2013 02:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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6- Doubt your doubts before you doubt your beliefs.
 
What a perfect example of Orwellian doublespeak!
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Posted: 29 August 2013 02:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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howdimissthat:
 
ETA:  The mixed messages will fill the need of all the membership, they will believe which ever teaching resonates with their own feelings and place less emphasis on the one that doesn't.  The church has met the needs of all members with their preaching of mixed messages and members are calmed knowing the church supports their personal feeling, the church is therefore true, the leaders inspired, and by the way any misunderstanding is the members fault.  
 
 
 Excellent example of "confirmation bias."
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Posted: 29 August 2013 04:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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Maybe part of the problem is that people treat doubt like it's something to be dealt with. As if it's some pesky little thing that we need to learn how to hush.  Doubt in and of itself is neither good nor bad.  But it can be used as a tool to help us check ourselves.
I got to a point in my life where I began to seriously doubt that it was okay to judge or make assumptions about members of the gay community.  That "doubt" helped me come to a better choice.  A person could also be in the habit of cheating or stealing because they've told themselves that the behavior doesn't really have a negative effect on people who matter.  They might eventually come to "doubt" that philosophy as well.  
When leaders tell us it's okay to have doubts as long as we don't dwell on them, what they're really saying is that the thinking and the decision making have already been done so go ahead and pretend to take a second look but make it quick.  
 
 


   


Posted: 25 September 2013 07:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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how is this my life:
Maybe part of the problem is that people treat doubt like it's something to be dealt with. As if it's some pesky little thing that we need to learn how to hush.  Doubt in and of itself is neither good nor bad.  But it can be used as a tool to help us check ourselves.
I got to a point in my life where I began to seriously doubt that it was okay to judge or make assumptions about members of the gay community.  That "doubt" helped me come to a better choice.  A person could also be in the habit of cheating or stealing because they've told themselves that the behavior doesn't really have a negative effect on people who matter.  They might eventually come to "doubt" that philosophy as well.  
When leaders tell us it's okay to have doubts as long as we don't dwell on them, what they're really saying is that the thinking and the decision making have already been done so go ahead and pretend to take a second look but make it quick.  
 
 
 
Yes, exactly. I think doubt is simply a manifestation of critical thinking. Thinking critically about an issue is the opposite of blind acceptance. Doubt is good. 
 
 
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Posted: 26 September 2013 12:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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The LDS Church can somehow help young people today, to maybe believe?
 
Romney's largely failed campaign solgan was Believe.  Mormonism may help to change the beehive state into the believe state.
 
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Posted: 26 September 2013 06:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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When my faith crisis hit, I actually went through these 10 steps:
 
1- It's OK to experience doubts, but don't let them linger.
 
I redoubled my efforts in the pray, pay and obey model
 
2- Fortify your faith in Jesus Christ.
 
I studied the New Testament and for the first time in my life I realized that the historical Jesus of the New Testament is not the same Jesue TCSS worships---A few months back I challenge DW to read and study the account of Jesus in the New Testament---Her response was that she knows about Jesus through the BoM.  Now I wonder if the whole read the BoM mantra is a 'Thought Stopping' technique so TBMs don't realize how different the LD$ Jesus is from the New Testament Jesus.---THEY ARE NOT THE SAME

3- Seek to resolve doubts through sincere prayer.
 
I never prayed so much in my entire life, and the answer was so obvious: TSCC is B*** S*** 

4- Increase your knowledge of truth.
 
Here is the problem: If you actually do increase your knowledge of truth, you cannot remain a TBM and be honest with yourself.   

5- Remember that truth is learned a little at a time.
 
Agreed!!! I learned little by little about the inconsistancies and flat out lies of TSCC. 

6- Doubt your doubts before you doubt your beliefs.
 
Yes I did doubt my doubts, but then I realized this would not be the pattern of a god, but rather the pattern of perpetrator---telling the to be victim don't trust yourself, trust me.

7- Consult reliable and authoritative sources.
 
Oh yes!!! The confession of doubt to the Bishop (relaiable and authoritative source)---Reading the BoM and Ensign---This is when I realized even though TSCC preaches that the US Constitution is inspired of god---TSCC government is actully very similar to North Korea.
 
Number 7 is nothing more than a code statement used to control information from its members. The TBM will only consider current living church leaders as authoritiative.

8- Consider the motives of the source.
 
 I woke up one day and realized---Yes, but it has to work both ways.  This is another classical 'Thought Stopping' statment where the TBM only considers the motive of the outside source.  How about the motive of TSCC.  When I realize how disingenuous TSCC is about this, I started refering to TSCC with explatives.
 
9- Detect half-truths and lack of context.
 
Refering to my comments under number 8---When applied to TSCC, one discovers that the LD$ Church is nothing but half-truths and lack of context. 

10- Neither science nor religion can answer all question."
 
I agree with this statement, however science seems to answer a lot of questions---religion avoids the question----TSCC avoids everything
 
I summary: David Marsh's 10 principles, when applied to the mythical war in heaven---is a strategy that would come from Satan's attempt to take away agency and force people to stay in the church heaven. 
 
And that is the IRONY of TSCC---They teach how bad satan's plan was to force everyone back to heaven---yet TSCC's stategy is the same to keep people in the church---which by their claim is the only way back to heaven. 


   


Posted: 26 September 2013 07:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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Interesting that the talk was before campus folks. They know the kids are online and learning the truth. It's a silly talk with no substance.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 26 September 2013 07:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
Francois Morin
Jr. Member
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Jeff Ricks:
From a Deseret News article:
 
"David Marsh opened his BYU Campus Education Week class with a question. “How many of you know someone struggling with doubt?” he asked the audience. Nearly everyone reached a hand toward the ceiling."
 
This is wonderful to see! It's more indication that the Church is hurting, as it should be.
 
The article: How LDS Church members can help themselves and loved ones deal with doubt 
 
Another excerpt:
 
"Throughout his three classes, Marsh shared 10 principles that can help those dealing with doubt find faith:


1- It's OK to experience doubts, but don’t let them linger.
(Because TSCC's special retention plan advisory board thinks that by saying that to you, it will give you the impression that TSCC is supporting you when you experience doubts but as long as you don't start contaminating other TBMs with your doubts because in that case, it WILL be considered lingering on doubts, at least from the Court of love perspective. )
 
2- Fortify your faith in Jesus Christ.
(Because TSCC's special retention plan advisory board thinks that by saying that to you, you will tend to minimize the potential effects of your doubts related to Joseph Myths lies of the BOM, Perle of Great Lies and D&C by rationalizing that Mormons nevertheless believes in the Bible too so it kind gives you a sense of comfort since you know that there is archaeological evidence of it ... like entire cities like Jerusalem and they just did not disapeared just to test your faith)
 
3- Seek to resolve doubts through sincere prayer.
(Because TSCC's special retention plan advisory board thinks that by saying that to you, it will engage the very useful concept of manipulation called circular reasoning : pray until your sense of despair triggers a psychological self-defense mechanism which will give you the illusion that your questions has been answered.)
 
4- Increase your knowledge of truth.
(Because TSCC's special retention plan advisory board thinks that by saying that to you, it will give you the impression that TSCC really want you to know the thruth and by doing so, it may be used by TSCC  in Court against a Plaintif who would sue TSCC for Fraud by stating something like '' Well, your honor, we don't understand the plaintif allegations since we have encouraged him a long time ago to '' increase his knowledge of thruth ''  ... I mean even the Prophit Hinckley for God's sake told him that either the Church is thruth or it is a fraud ... so your honor, the plaintif was duly warned from my client years ago so this legal action should be dismissed at this preliminary stage ''.)
 
5- Remember that truth is learned a little at a time.
(Because TSCC'S special retention plan advisory board thinks that by saying that to you, it will help you to go on with the TSSC 'S deception by telling you that all the thruth has not been restored yet and it will be revealed only to most dovoted fellows that will not defect the organisation in these latter Days.)
 
6- Doubt your doubts before you doubt your beliefs.  
 Whatever this one means, sometimes some random incomprehensible stuff thrown at you is helping to mix you even more.
 
7- Consult reliable and authoritative sources.
 Oh ok, is Sandra Tanner's website utlm.org is reliable ?
 
8- Consider the motives of the source.
Because it gives you the impression that TSCC's motives are always good and that the motives can only be questioned about other sources. 
 
9- Detect half-truths and lack of context.
Same as above
 
10- Neither science nor religion can answer all question."
So don't bother to look for too long because it is those who goes all the way in their doubts that typically stop paying us tithing and we sure don't like it eventhought we have made plans to minimze our lost in tithing ny purchasing a whole mall so our futur revenues don't depend entirely on tithing anymore. 
 
The last one is particularly desperate. If science and religion can't provide answers then I guess that leaves make-believe (a.k.a. faith). 
 
 
 
 


   


Posted: 26 September 2013 03:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Bold Wish
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WinstonSmith:. . .  TBMs don't realize how different the LD$ Jesus is from the New Testament Jesus.---THEY ARE NOT THE SAME
 
 
 
The organization can not undo their claim that Cheeze Bits is the god in the old testament.
 
 
Only after an intense study of the OT did my belief in Cheeze Bits - and the rest of it - start to unravel.
 
 
 
 
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When I discovered the truth and realized the organization was lying to me, that they had always been lying to me, I felt a sting of betrayal, the humiliation from an organization who profits abundantly by violating trust.  I knew that no matter what would come of it, I could no longer remain associated with the organization in any way.  Since leaving, I’ve enjoyed thinking on my own, guilt is almost a foreign concept, and being in control of my life is incredibly satisfying.


   


Posted: 27 September 2013 10:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Quite frankly, even the NT Jesus isn't the real Jesus.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 27 September 2013 10:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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WinstonSmith:
When my faith crisis hit, I actually went through these 10 steps:
 
1- It's OK to experience doubts, but don't let them linger.
 
I redoubled my efforts in the pray, pay and obey model
 
2- Fortify your faith in Jesus Christ.
 
I studied the New Testament and for the first time in my life I realized that the historical Jesus of the New Testament is not the same Jesue TCSS worships---A few months back I challenge DW to read and study the account of Jesus in the New Testament---Her response was that she knows about Jesus through the BoM.  Now I wonder if the whole read the BoM mantra is a 'Thought Stopping' technique so TBMs don't realize how different the LD$ Jesus is from the New Testament Jesus.---THEY ARE NOT THE SAME

3- Seek to resolve doubts through sincere prayer.
 
I never prayed so much in my entire life, and the answer was so obvious: TSCC is B*** S*** 

4- Increase your knowledge of truth.
 
Here is the problem: If you actually do increase your knowledge of truth, you cannot remain a TBM and be honest with yourself.   

5- Remember that truth is learned a little at a time.
 
Agreed!!! I learned little by little about the inconsistancies and flat out lies of TSCC. 

6- Doubt your doubts before you doubt your beliefs.
 
Yes I did doubt my doubts, but then I realized this would not be the pattern of a god, but rather the pattern of perpetrator---telling the to be victim don't trust yourself, trust me.

7- Consult reliable and authoritative sources.
 
Oh yes!!! The confession of doubt to the Bishop (relaiable and authoritative source)---Reading the BoM and Ensign---This is when I realized even though TSCC preaches that the US Constitution is inspired of god---TSCC government is actully very similar to North Korea.
 
Number 7 is nothing more than a code statement used to control information from its members. The TBM will only consider current living church leaders as authoritiative.

8- Consider the motives of the source.
 
 I woke up one day and realized---Yes, but it has to work both ways.  This is another classical 'Thought Stopping' statment where the TBM only considers the motive of the outside source.  How about the motive of TSCC.  When I realize how disingenuous TSCC is about this, I started refering to TSCC with explatives.
 
9- Detect half-truths and lack of context.
 
Refering to my comments under number 8---When applied to TSCC, one discovers that the LD$ Church is nothing but half-truths and lack of context. 

10- Neither science nor religion can answer all question."
 
I agree with this statement, however science seems to answer a lot of questions---religion avoids the question----TSCC avoids everything
 
I summary: David Marsh's 10 principles, when applied to the mythical war in heaven---is a strategy that would come from Satan's attempt to take away agency and force people to stay in the church heaven. 
 
And that is the IRONY of TSCC---They teach how bad satan's plan was to force everyone back to heaven---yet TSCC's stategy is the same to keep people in the church---which by their claim is the only way back to heaven. 
 
This is five star stuff, Winston. I'm bookmarking it.
 
    
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Posted: 28 September 2013 02:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
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Mashiara
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Matter Unorganized:
WinstonSmith:
When my faith crisis hit, I actually went through these 10 steps:
 
1- It's OK to experience doubts, but don't let them linger.
 
I redoubled my efforts in the pray, pay and obey model
 
2- Fortify your faith in Jesus Christ.
 
I studied the New Testament and for the first time in my life I realized that the historical Jesus of the New Testament is not the same Jesue TCSS worships---A few months back I challenge DW to read and study the account of Jesus in the New Testament---Her response was that she knows about Jesus through the BoM.  Now I wonder if the whole read the BoM mantra is a 'Thought Stopping' technique so TBMs don't realize how different the LD$ Jesus is from the New Testament Jesus.---THEY ARE NOT THE SAME

3- Seek to resolve doubts through sincere prayer.
 
I never prayed so much in my entire life, and the answer was so obvious: TSCC is B*** S*** 

4- Increase your knowledge of truth.
 
Here is the problem: If you actually do increase your knowledge of truth, you cannot remain a TBM and be honest with yourself.   

5- Remember that truth is learned a little at a time.
 
Agreed!!! I learned little by little about the inconsistancies and flat out lies of TSCC. 

6- Doubt your doubts before you doubt your beliefs.
 
Yes I did doubt my doubts, but then I realized this would not be the pattern of a god, but rather the pattern of perpetrator---telling the to be victim don't trust yourself, trust me.

7- Consult reliable and authoritative sources.
 
Oh yes!!! The confession of doubt to the Bishop (relaiable and authoritative source)---Reading the BoM and Ensign---This is when I realized even though TSCC preaches that the US Constitution is inspired of god---TSCC government is actully very similar to North Korea.
 
Number 7 is nothing more than a code statement used to control information from its members. The TBM will only consider current living church leaders as authoritiative.

8- Consider the motives of the source.
 
 I woke up one day and realized---Yes, but it has to work both ways.  This is another classical 'Thought Stopping' statment where the TBM only considers the motive of the outside source.  How about the motive of TSCC.  When I realize how disingenuous TSCC is about this, I started refering to TSCC with explatives.
 
9- Detect half-truths and lack of context.
 
Refering to my comments under number 8---When applied to TSCC, one discovers that the LD$ Church is nothing but half-truths and lack of context. 

10- Neither science nor religion can answer all question."
 
I agree with this statement, however science seems to answer a lot of questions---religion avoids the question----TSCC avoids everything
 
I summary: David Marsh's 10 principles, when applied to the mythical war in heaven---is a strategy that would come from Satan's attempt to take away agency and force people to stay in the church heaven. 
 
And that is the IRONY of TSCC---They teach how bad satan's plan was to force everyone back to heaven---yet TSCC's stategy is the same to keep people in the church---which by their claim is the only way back to heaven. 
 
This is five star stuff, Winston. I'm bookmarking it.
 
    
 
Agreed, great stuff!!!!


   


Posted: 05 October 2013 09:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]   

   
 
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kinderhooker
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David B. Marsh said some time ago, "Doubt your doubts before you doubt your beliefs."

Dieter F. Uchtdorf said today, "Doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith."
 
And who gets credit for this [ridicule-worthy] quote among all TBM-dom? Dieter has it! And TBMs love it . . .
 
Do they have some serious doubts?
 
And why are so many in my FB-feed saying they love Holland? How can he be anyone's favorite? Those jowls!
 Signature
“And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations.” Alma 37:3


   


Posted: 06 October 2013 07:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]   

   
 
rain
Long Timer
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Joined  2010-05-03
 
  
 
kinderhooker:
David B. Marsh said some time ago, "Doubt your doubts before you doubt your beliefs."

Dieter F. Uchtdorf said today, "Doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith."
 
And who gets credit for this [ridicule-worthy] quote among all TBM-dom? Dieter has it! And TBMs love it . . .
 
Do they have some serious doubts?
 
And why are so many in my FB-feed saying they love Holland? How can he be anyone's favorite? Those jowls!
 
Because JRH has SUFFERED!! He has suffered greatly. Just like US, he suffers.
And we need to feel sorry for him and not bash him because he has had depression, just like many of US. I think JRH is now playing the poor me card.  After a few years of crying and blubbering and making a fool of himself over the BOM and telling everyone how crummy it is that anyone should question the veracity of this sacred and noble book and the noble man who brought it to us, he now is
trying to get sympathy.  REALLY DUDE??  Most people in the real world know that depression is a bio-chemical problem, not a moral one.  I found it interesting that he needed to tell an LDS congregation that it is OK to take meds and for the rest
of his minions to not judge those who have this medical condition.  I am not minimizing the pain of depression.  I think it is exacerbated by the ridiculous culture of the LDS church. ( and the pressure to not trust your own thinking) Maybe there should be a pill for cognitive dissonance.
 
Trust your instincts people. Not doing so kept me in the church way too long.


   


Posted: 06 October 2013 07:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]   

   
 
rain
Long Timer
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P.S. He was SUFFERING a few years ago when I saw him in the Albertson's parking lot wearing a really nice golf shirt,tan, and driving a very expensive car. OK, He WASN'T suffering, he was in fact, pretty happy. JRH is a good actor. 

   


Posted: 06 October 2013 08:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]   

   
 
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Born Free
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There is a simple test of the viability of this approach:
Would the same steps, if applied to any other faith, affirm belief in that faith just as effectively as it would Mormonism?
Logically the answer is 'yes', because the process is self-serving and not in any way likely to generate an objective outcome.
Yet, how often do people who have been indoctrinated in a faith, stand back and apply such an objective measure? And if not, why not?
For the simple reason that Mormonism attempts to blinker the vision and thinking of members from as early as possible.
Interstingly, while I intuitively was uncomfortable with that process from quite young, and saw its self-serving nature, I failed to make several other connections to make the break from Mormonism until my mid 30s, and have regretted that all my life.
 
Daryl 
 Signature
‘Our life is the creation of our minds, and we do much of that creating in metaphor…. With the wrong metaphor we are deluded; with no metaphor we are blind. ’ Jonathan Haidt
‘and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl


   


            
 
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Posted: 19 December 2013 03:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/tarico20131218
 
New article, and always worth examining again if not for the first time.
 
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Temple Recommend Question Answered for LDS Church  
Posted: 18 December 2013 03:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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baneberry
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1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?

If you mean the fourth account of the first vision, I think so.

2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?
As long as you've done "all you can do" it works.  So you've got to never rest, always be available for the next calling and neglect those you love so you can be with them in the celestial kingdom.

3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?
 
But, some of what is restored is of men, part of the culture, and only part of them speaking as men.  We'll tell you which that is once the pressure becomes too great.

4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?
 
Of course, we're perfect and never will lead you astray.  Just keep your eye on us and you'll be okay.  If we're mistaken, we'll excommunicate you for saying so until we change our minds and then, we don't have to say sorry to you.  It was just how things were in the world at the time.
5 Do you live the law of chastity?
 
No sex before you're married.  Don't touch your pee pee.  You girls should remember it is your job to keep the boys clean but you know boys.  Don't look at dirty pictures, they'll rot your brain and make you touch yourself.  Then after you get married, lots of sex but it may not be much fun because we've made it so bad...
6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?
 
If there is, we really don't want to know about it because you know that the priesthood rules and you just need to learn to take it.
7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
 
Because if you do, that's bad.  We're always right, they're always wrong and you can't really complain to anybody about it.  We'll tell you what to think, how to think it, when to think it and where.  We're to be trusted and those guys aren't.
8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?
Remember, you've covenanted that all that you have belongs to us and we can ask for it whenever we want.  And, don't you complain when the fifth trip through the same correlated manual gets boring or crazy Sister _____ gets up in testimony meeting and tells you some whacked out story for the umpteenth time. 

9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?
 
Cause we're not.
10 Are you a full-tithe payer?
 
Keep it coming so you can be able to go to the temple.  We don't want you to lose your eternal family.
11 Do your keep the Word of Wisdom?
 
As we currently interpret it?  Get fat, take prescription meds and get addicted but don't you dare drink any coffee or tea.  And, when that poor schmuck that smokes shows up for sacrament meeting, make sure he knows you disapprove.
12 Do you have financial or other obligations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?
 
A good question...  Can I be sealed to both of the women?
13 If you have previously received your temple endowment:
Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?
Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?
Cause we care about underwear...  It's really important.   

14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?
We love to hear about them.  It makes us feel like we're helping. 

15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?
 
Cause you're probably not, and we can discern it when your not and we are just waiting for you to tell us what we already know...  Enjoy your new temple recommend!
 Signature
There are many other forms of lying. When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying. We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look, by silence, or by telling only part of the truth. Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.
http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-31-honesty?lang=eng


   


Posted: 18 December 2013 11:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Celestial Wedgie
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baneberry:

[snip]

9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?
 
Cause we're not.
[more snippage]
 
This one cracks me up: so brief and yet so on target!  


   


Posted: 18 December 2013 12:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Silverwings
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Really, they shouldn't have a hymn about holding the rod if masturbating is such a no no :p
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Oh, there isn’t one thing left you could say
I’m sorry it’s too late
Avril Lavigne - Let Me Go Lyrics


   


Posted: 19 December 2013 07:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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If you have to sit through one of those interviews...the best answer to "all" the questions is: This question is not necessary to my salvation. (Quoting the current GA15.)
 Signature
”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


            
 
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Is there really any “getting better” for some people?
by TheThomas
Masterbating
by TheThomas
Broad daylight is the best antiseptic
by Strong Free & Thankful
How do I develop a lifestyle out of Mormonism?
by Nephi
The perfect excuse for polyandry
by Tessa
Downtown Bus Robber Takes A Ride To The Floor
by Elder OldDog
Will Utah allow 'married gays' to marry opposite sex in the State also?
by Nephi
Name Finally Removed
by Matter Unorganized
Religious Trauma Syndrome
by josephs myth
INTRODUCE YOURSELVES - TAG YOU'RE IT!
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President Uchtdorf: Mistakes (#3) by Leaders and Members.
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I'm returning and reporting after being off this site for a while.
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Don't hold your breath waiting for LDS Inc to apologize for its obvious racism.
by Celestial Wedgie
Was Michael Jackson Mormon????
by Dogzilla Joy
Three questions or more
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Advice for getting someone to leave Mormonism
by how is this my life
Race and the Priesthood: Back to the Future edition
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Temple Recommend Question Answered for LDS Church
by Tessa
Duck Dynasty
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by Swearing Elder 

  
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Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
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Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
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Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
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INRETROSPECT

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Forum Home  >  Member Forums  >  The Community Forum  >  Thread 
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A Mole, a Mole, My Kingdom for a Mole (Inside Church Headquarters)  
Posted: 16 December 2013 09:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Born Free
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Can you imagine the story that someone is currently writing in their journal, about the shift we are observing in Church tactics in handling its dirty linen?
Some brave souls or team thought through the problems associated with the previous tactics (block and deny - the mushroom treatment - keep 'em in the dark and feed them on BS), and decided to risk offfering a plan B.
What has emerged is likely Plan B after it was nutered: be honest trimmed back to - look like we're being honest, and maintain maximum control and spin it like hell.
That emerged after they had to work through the politics and the factions to get it legs. I can smell Holland all over this; that same Holland the BBC caught out telling porkies (porky pies = lies).
There is likely a gripping book in that process alone.
And of course, what is coming forth is only a half-baked version of the truth, spun within an inch of its life, which in itself is not without risk as a tactic. What has emerged is neither fish nor foul. Will it either fly or swim?
I suspect this won't be a small circle involved in this tactical change, and the risks of leakage must be significant.
I want to see a gutsy reporter go after the scoop. A fist full of dollars would have to loosen the lips of some cynic/closet doubter who is close to the inner circle.
Daryl
PS: Does the term 'mole' translate from Brit and Australian English as a spy on the inside? A mole is a British burrowing/tunnelling animal which lives underground.
 Signature
‘Our life is the creation of our minds, and we do much of that creating in metaphor…. With the wrong metaphor we are deluded; with no metaphor we are blind. ’ Jonathan Haidt
‘and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl


   


Posted: 17 December 2013 06:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Those pesky "church historians" have often let the "cat-out-of-the-bag" for which they've been sent into "emeritus" limbo...(LDS folks don't know what limbo was....just like mole.)
 
Found that out years ago, Mormons know nothing about any other religion (especially the women)...a sure sign of a cult.
 Signature
”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 17 December 2013 11:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Jeff Ricks
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Born Free:
Can you imagine the story that someone is currently writing in their journal, about the shift we are observing in Church tactics in handling its dirty linen?
Some brave souls or team thought through the problems associated with the previous tactics (block and deny - the mushroom treatment - keep 'em in the dark and feed them on BS), and decided to risk offfering a plan B.
What has emerged is likely Plan B after it was nutered: be honest trimmed back to - look like we're being honest, and maintain maximum control and spin it like hell.
That emerged after they had to work through the politics and the factions to get it legs. I can smell Holland all over this; that same Holland the BBC caught out telling porkies (porky pies = lies).
There is likely a gripping book in that process alone.
And of course, what is coming forth is only a half-baked version of the truth, spun within an inch of its life, which in itself is not without risk as a tactic. What has emerged is neither fish nor foul. Will it either fly or swim?
I suspect this won't be a small circle involved in this tactical change, and the risks of leakage must be significant.
I want to see a gutsy reporter go after the scoop. A fist full of dollars would have to loosen the lips of some cynic/closet doubter who is close to the inner circle.
Daryl
PS: Does the term 'mole' translate from Brit and Australian English as a spy on the inside? A mole is a British burrowing/tunnelling animal which lives underground.
 
Oh yes, mole translates. We use the same term. However, "porkie pies" doesn't translate at all!   Thanks for the tutorial on that one.
 
Daryl, I also watching with great interest what's happening in the church right now. I love watching the Brethren squirm between the rock and hard place they've made for themselves. What a wonderful Christmas present!!!  Teehee!  
 
 
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When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine


   


Posted: 17 December 2013 05:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
sage
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Interesting coincidences? 
 
There is major First Vision discussion with Grant Palmer and the Church releases a statement.
 
Nelson Mandela dies and they release a statement on Blacks and the Priesthood.
 
Polygamy is decriminalized in Utah and the statement on polygamy is released.
 
Maybe something on Santa Claus right around Christmas. 
 
 
 Signature
If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away.
- Henry David Thoreau


   


Posted: 17 December 2013 07:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Born Free
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Jeff Ricks:
 
Oh yes, mole translates. We use the same term. However, "porkie pies" doesn't translate at all!   Thanks for the tutorial on that one.
 
 
 
It is a speech play that is believed to derive from Cockney.
On the core issue, it is the Season of Giving, and thus far it has given magnificently.
Their tactic of conceding small fry to dissipate anger and disillusionment, is well proven. But it is an imprecise instrument, and my sense is that it has the capacity to backfire.
After years of insisting leaders are guided by God, surprise, surprise that is some backed up energy, when they finally concede that these guys made/make mistakes. Many religions have leaders who claim guidance by God, but stop short of the arrogance of the claims made for the Pope and Mormon prophets.
This is a whip they have made for their own back.
They seem to want people to perceive the issue of dark skin as an isolated issue.
IMO, it is far from that, having all the hallmarks of:
Arrogant leadership
Leadership that is used to communication only going top-down
Seige mentality that automatically interprets critique as 'anti-Mormon'
Isolated, closed, self-referential culture 
Anti-intellectual culture
Pinched artistic culture
And one could go on and on.
 
 
Daryl 
 Signature
‘Our life is the creation of our minds, and we do much of that creating in metaphor…. With the wrong metaphor we are deluded; with no metaphor we are blind. ’ Jonathan Haidt
‘and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl


   


Posted: 17 December 2013 09:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
Celestial Wedgie
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sage:
Interesting coincidences? 
 
There is major First Vision discussion with Grant Palmer and the Church releases a statement.
 
Nelson Mandela dies and they release a statement on Blacks and the Priesthood.
 
Polygamy is decriminalized in Utah and the statement on polygamy is released.
 
Maybe something on Santa Claus right around Christmas. 
 
 
 
!
 
Wow, I hadn't noticed the remarkable coincidences there.  
 
The church has been preparing these statements in advance.  Obviously they know which issues are causing the biggest waves and they're probably trotting out the minimal honesty in some pre-planned sequence.  But I do have to wonder if maybe they just wait for some timely news event that mostly lines up and then select one of the remaining prepared bits of apologia.
 
"Something on Santa Claus right around Christmas"--. 


   


Posted: 18 December 2013 06:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Wonder what they'll come up with, now that Matheson is quitting congress...(the lone mormon Democrat from Utah)
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


            
 
 ‹‹ The Trendy Church Of JC... sign after the news!        Advice for getting someone to leave Mormonism ››  

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Is there really any “getting better” for some people?
by TheThomas
Masterbating
by TheThomas
Broad daylight is the best antiseptic
by Strong Free & Thankful
How do I develop a lifestyle out of Mormonism?
by Nephi
The perfect excuse for polyandry
by Tessa
Downtown Bus Robber Takes A Ride To The Floor
by Elder OldDog
Will Utah allow 'married gays' to marry opposite sex in the State also?
by Nephi
Name Finally Removed
by Matter Unorganized
Religious Trauma Syndrome
by josephs myth
INTRODUCE YOURSELVES - TAG YOU'RE IT!
by haylee
President Uchtdorf: Mistakes (#3) by Leaders and Members.
by josephs myth
I'm returning and reporting after being off this site for a while.
by Kori
Don't hold your breath waiting for LDS Inc to apologize for its obvious racism.
by Celestial Wedgie
Was Michael Jackson Mormon????
by Dogzilla Joy
Three questions or more
by Mountainhippie
Advice for getting someone to leave Mormonism
by how is this my life
Race and the Priesthood: Back to the Future edition
by Tessa
Temple Recommend Question Answered for LDS Church
by Tessa
Duck Dynasty
by Tessa
New Essay = Polygamy
by Swearing Elder 

  
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/38362/

















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OCTOBER CONFERENCE
"Past, Present, and Possibilities"
Oct. 18-20, 2013










 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



Salt Lake Events the week before christmas
[Salt Lake City Po...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (12/1)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
December 1st- Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
We’re still here...
[East Tennessee Po...] 
Utah County CALM meetup for November
[Calm of Utah Coun...] 
Joseph's Changing Myth with Grant Palmer -- Nov 6 -- 7pm -- SLC Library
[Salt Lake City Po...] 
November Meet Up
[Idaho Falls Post-...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (11/3)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
November 3rd- Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture series
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
October Meet-up
[Denver Post-Mormo...] 
October Meeting
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Book of Mormon Tories
by Nogginus Skepticalus 
Native American DNA
by GTM 
Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
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Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Virginia Steve

CALM meet up for June
4bagel

Revised NW Women's Retreat Announcement
lunaverse

Austin Fall Party
lightrider702

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
by Timo 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by ExMoNemo 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Mikki B 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Mikki B

Resignation Letter to My Family
Waveoftruth

Resignation Letter to My Family
In search of Truth

Carolina PostMo Night: “The Master
Swearing Elder

Washington D.C. Post-Mormon Lunch - August 28
freckles

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Financial Report for 2011 to Date
by Jeff Ricks 
Resignation Letter to My Family
pennw

Financial Report for 2011 to Date
by Poor Thumper 
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
by Poor Thumper 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Poor Thumper

SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (6/3)
exmoinaz

SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (6/3)
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Earth Day Concert Get Together!
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Posted: 17 December 2013 10:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/central/provo/years-later-provo-city-center-temple-rising-from-fire/article_db264d9e-66b2-11e3-a3e5-0019bb2963f4.html
 
Demonstrating maybe with honest planning and careful consideration, including expert advice, some Mormon things may rise up from the firey ashes as in the fantasy fable of the phoenix.  Hey, I said ashes!  Like to fire some ashes. 
 
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Posted: 17 December 2013 11:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Wonder if they're putting together the pieces like the Spanish Cathedral monks are doing after their earthquake? http://articles.latimes.com/2002/sep/28/local/me-religassisi28
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 17 December 2013 11:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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   Pretty much anything is possible if enough money is spent and with an bottomless checkbook, yeah, It will be whatever they decide it will be. Personally I'd like to see a 200 room shelter for the cold and hungry people on the street. But, that would certainly be out of character for the rich and famous. 

   


Posted: 17 December 2013 12:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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Sunbeep:
   Pretty much anything is possible if enough money is spent and with an bottomless checkbook, yeah, It will be whatever they decide it will be. Personally I'd like to see a 200 room shelter for the cold and hungry people on the street. But, that would certainly be out of character for the rich and famous.
 
Inflated and levitated projects as huge as this one make you kind-of think another giant mall is soon in the planning.
 
http://inhabitat.com/100-year-old-utah-church-is-lifted-40-foot-above-ground-without-moving-an-inch/
 
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Posted: 08 December 2013 12:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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So, here's a little something I'd like to share.
 
A couple of days ago, I got a knock on my door late at night to find a couple of well-meaning sisters from the local Singles Ward. They claimed they were looking for a guy who must've lived in the apartment at least 3 years before me, but once they figured out that I hadn't been attending church for a while, they pretty much immediately shoved a Book of Mormon in my hands (that I can now add to my growing collection; all being donated to the DI) and their business cards and a pamphlet. Well, since I wasn't interested, I conveniently lost their business cards and threw the pamplet in the trash.
 
Now, the very next day. I was at the bus stop with my art portfolio, on my way home from school with my friend Richard, and when looking around - I kid you not - there were a couple of Sister Missionaries who were crossing the street. When I accidentally locked eyes with them, the literally turned themselves around and came over to talk to us. I swear, it was like sharks getting a whiff of blood in the water.
 
One started talking with Richard, while the other one came up to me and asked me about my artwork, and then asked me if I knew about their church. I tried to be as polite as possible in turning her down; I told her that I grew up in the church, but I was leaving because I do not agree with many of the church's politics or doctrines. She gave me a sweet little speach about how "your Heavenly Father loves you, and he wouldn't put you through something if he didn't think you could handle it" [in response to "I'm a lesbian"], and then invited me to attend the Singles Ward that she and her companion attended. And guess what? It was the same Singles Ward that the Sisters from the night before attended.
 
I think Richard and I both had the relieved sigh of the century when the bus finally turned the corner. The missionaries were sweet and all, but they were also nothing if not persistant.  
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Posted: 08 December 2013 08:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
NoMorKulAde
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Expect much more contact until you drive them away with a stronger response or you officially resign.  Good luck.
 
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Posted: 08 December 2013 05:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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I'd make a move at one of the Sisters next time - Maybe knowing you have a big lesbian crush on them will drive them away
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Posted: 09 December 2013 09:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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barelythere:
I'd make a move at one of the Sisters next time - Maybe knowing you have a big lesbian crush on them will drive them away
 
You know that assumes they are not gay. Make sure you pick one that meets your standards to hit  incase they call your bluff. 


   


            
 
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Follow the Handbook  
Posted: 08 December 2013 08:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Suspicious Minds
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Monson counsels women regarding visting teaching.  Don't think, don't question or make suggestions, just follow the Handbook!
 
Now we have a church where people are confused.
If you don't believe it, go and watch the pews.
Members get subjugated all along their way,
If people heed the handbook-follow it we say.
 
Follow the handbook, follow the handbook,
Follow the handbook; don't go astray.
Follow the handbook, follow the handbook,
Follow the handbook; it knows the way. 
 
 


   


Posted: 08 December 2013 09:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
rain
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I would exhort each of you to check out this video. Way creepy. Kind of like Warren Jeffs. 

   


Posted: 08 December 2013 10:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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I theeenk that Tommy is slurring.  If I didn't know better I would have thought he was drunk, but maybe its just a denture problem.
 
On the subject at hand, there are just so many many problems when you don't follow the handbook.  People actually make the church pallatable.  Its horrible when that happens. 
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Posted: 08 December 2013 11:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
finex
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 Oh my, Tommy is bitchslapping the members! "Problems are your fault, you failed to follow the handbook." 
 
 And the body language and tone of voice on the video? Tommy was clearly frustrated, maybe it was the 15th take or something. 


   


Posted: 09 December 2013 12:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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NoMorKulAde:
I theeenk that Tommy is slurring.  If I didn't know better I would have thought he was drunk, but maybe its just a denture problem.
 
On the subject at hand, there are just so many many problems when you don't follow the handbook.  People actually make the church pallatable.  Its horrible when that happens. 
 
  KulAde: He totally reminded me Bobby Moynihan as drunk uncle on SNL. . . and Rain's Warren Jeffs comparison is also apt. I cannot watch a leader of TSCC speak without being thoroughly creeped out.


   


Posted: 09 December 2013 06:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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rain:
I would exhort each of you to check out this video. Way creepy. Kind of like Warren Jeffs.
 
 I agree! It's like Monson is really pissed off that he has to deal with the women yet again who want to simply have a say in how things are run.  I too thought he looks a little glazed over and maybe had some fruit of the tree.  


   


Posted: 09 December 2013 07:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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I was also going to say he's like an SNL character.  It's hard for an outsider to believe anyone would take this person seriously.  
 
Meanwhile, anyone think this is a reaction to the Wear Pants to Church and Ordain Women movements? He seems to think the problem is women thinking for themselves and acting as a group.   


   


Posted: 09 December 2013 07:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
rain
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In his recent Salt Lake Tribune column, Robert Kirby made the comment that "Dogs are obedient, people can cooperate." (something like that) I guess Mr. Monson is going for the KING approach. He needs to appear on undercover boss and hang out with his peeps more. I swear some of the 15 have really lost touch with the little people. But then again, ol' Brigham, yea, the Lion of the Lord, lived a life of relative luxury while he banished 'lesser' men to the desert.
 
Again, if anyone has not clicked on the link above it sums up the control that TSCC
exerts over its' membership. Well worth the minute or two it takes to watch it. But then again, it isn't in the HANDBOOK, so maybe you better not watch it.
 


   


Posted: 09 December 2013 09:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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   It's all part of the plan to keep the members in line. I worked for a psychotic sociopath and even when we tried our hardest to keep him happy, he still found reasons to criticize us and want more.  After a while it backfired and we intentionally did things to undermine him and cost him more money.
 
   Yes, Tomy should put on a clock of hiding and mingle with the normal people just to hear them out. Hell, he might even come up with a new and everlasting revelation that would help retain the flow of members who are leaving.
 
   It's exasparating to see the members continue to spew forth their morg lingo and pay homage to a magic enigma that has fooled so many for so long out of ignorance.  Well, thanks to Al Gore and the Internet, that ignorance is slowly fading away. 
 
 
 
   


   


Posted: 09 December 2013 03:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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The president of the LDS church looks so tired in this one.  I have to say--much to my discredit as an inspired, potential LDS bishop--I liked some of the things that he listed as errors: candles on the sacrament table, skipping Sunday School, and group-level visiting teaching.    Possibly I've been listening to the wrong spirit.  I should have asked it to shake my hand. 

   


Posted: 09 December 2013 07:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
ff42
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That video has got to be posted/edited by a mole, doesn't it? 

   


Posted: 09 December 2013 07:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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ff:
That video has got to be posted/edited by a mole, doesn't it?
 
 A mole...LOL!  The short admonition from monson is an excerpt from his opening remarks from a 2010 worldwide leadership training meeting.  Not edited, no mole, just the real thing!


   


Posted: 09 December 2013 07:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Suspicious Minds:
ff:
That video has got to be posted/edited by a mole, doesn't it?
 
 A mole...LOL!  The short admonition from monson is an excerpt from his opening remarks from a 2010 worldwide leadership training meeting.  Not edited, no mole, just the real thing!
 
In that case, it's so nonsensical it must be inspired!
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Posted: 09 December 2013 07:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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kinderhooker:
Suspicious Minds:
ff:
That video has got to be posted/edited by a mole, doesn't it?
 
 A mole...LOL!  The short admonition from monson is an excerpt from his opening remarks from a 2010 worldwide leadership training meeting.  Not edited, no mole, just the real thing!
 
In that case, it's so nonsensical it must be inspired!
 
 The greater the bamboozle, the more believable it is!  


   


Posted: 09 December 2013 08:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Bold Wish
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Did he ever really smile?
 
His countenance was as if he felt worms crawling up his ass while he was "reading the telepromter" . . . how inspirational.  Meanwhile, tens of thousands died today from starvation but the only prophet, apostle, seer and revelator thinks this message is more important.  Oh, now I get it - the "S" must be for "shitfaced"
 
Very un-tommy-like . . . maybe he finally accepted his deep rooted knowledge that it's just a scam and he's not really communicating with god, or cheeze bits.
 
Maybe someone forgot to change his Depends - he didn't look happy and I don't blame him.  What a wasted life.
 
 
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When I discovered the truth and realized the organization was lying to me, that they had always been lying to me, I felt a sting of betrayal, the humiliation from an organization who profits abundantly by violating trust.  I knew that no matter what would come of it, I could no longer remain associated with the organization in any way.  Since leaving, I’ve enjoyed thinking on my own, guilt is almost a foreign concept, and being in control of my life is incredibly satisfying.


   


Posted: 09 December 2013 08:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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backwardsiris
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Bold Wish:
 
Did he ever really smile?
 
His countenance was as if he felt worms crawling up his ass while he was "reading the telepromter" . . . how inspirational.  Meanwhile, tens of thousands died today from starvation but the only prophet, apostle, seer and revelator thinks this message is more important.  Oh, now I get it - the "S" must be for "shitfaced"
 
Very un-tommy-like . . . maybe he finally accepted his deep rooted knowledge that it's just a scam and he's not really communicating with god, or cheeze bits.
 
Maybe someone forgot to change his Depends - he didn't look happy and I don't blame him.  What a wasted life.
 
 
 
First I was all. . . 
 Mitt Romney's uncomfortable robo-laugh. 
 
and after that, I was like, "AWKWARD!". . . 
Jim from The Office looks very uncomfortable.
 
which made me just wanna. . . 
Homer Simpson slowly backs into a hedge. 
 
 
 
 


   


Posted: 09 December 2013 08:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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Suspicious Minds
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  Your video represenations are spot on! 

   


Posted: 09 December 2013 08:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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Suspicious Minds:
  Your video represenations are spot on!
 
 And I was just going to say thanks for getting my favorite Elvis song stuck in my head! (I've been known to karaoke it, on occasion.)


   


            
 
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The Biggest Change In The Current Church  
Posted: 16 December 2013 06:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Mountainhippie
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As I see it, from a sports analogy perspective, The biggest change in the church is that it has gone from an aggressively offensive organization (appropriate pun fully acknowledged and intended) to a cautiously defensive organization. In sports there are basically two approaches, aggressively playing to win and cautiously playing not to lose. The current church is no longer playing to win but rather not to lose.
 
Just a few short years ago an apostate was aggressively attacked by those in the church as someone making a grave mistake. Now days, it seems the church just hopes that appostates will go quietly without taking too many others with them.
 
In MMA fighting, there is a tactic called Lay & Pray where a fighter (usually a good wrestler) tries to squeek out a narrow victory by getting a small advantage and desperately hanging on while minimizing any potential to suffer a knockout punch. These type of fighters fear of losing or getting knocked out seems to take precedence over their confidence in winning. They usually fall out of favor with the fans rather quickly as they have very little of interest to offer.
 
To me, the church is in Lay & Pray mode and will increasingly fall from favor by those who find it has little of value or interest to offer.
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Posted: 16 December 2013 07:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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You sure that's not "Pay, Lay, Ail?" Wait...that's been flushed...never mind.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 16 December 2013 07:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
former victim
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Sounds reasonable considering the advent of the Internet. So much that's been hidden away is now quickly available to those who question. And when people start to question, its only a matter of time.  Its inevitable that there is so much now coming back out into the open to haunt the deceivers, that they are having difficulties figuring out which direction to marshal their best defense. 

   


Posted: 16 December 2013 08:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler
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The church is definetly playing not to lose.  Hell, their whole management system is set up so that change happens slowly.  there is not room for dynamic leadership.  The only game they are playing now is to hang on to as many tithe paying members as possible and I think it is a losing proposition.  To keep those people, they would have to demonstrate the kind of vision and leadership that they are clearly incapable of demonstrating.  Of course, they also know that to keep those people from leaving, they risk disrupting the nest egg of tbms that don't know any better yet and that keep handing over their time and money and kids.
 
The church does put members in a double bind but the sweet irony is that in doing so they have put themselves into their own double bind.  There really is nothing they can do but hang on and die as slow a death as possible.
 
they blew it out with the missionary age change and reorging the young single adults.  It is like the battle of the bulge and now they are simply fighting for a slow retreat. 
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Posted: 17 December 2013 09:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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When I served a mission 25 years ago, it was generally accepted by TBMs that the "gospel" was headed down a one way road to total world domination.  No slowing. No offramps. There would be hundreds of millions of Mormons in our childrens' lifetimes, if Jesus didn't come back sooner to declare Mormons the victors.
 
Ask any leader now, or listen to any conference talk on the topic in the last 5 years, and you'll be told that the Lard's true church isn't for eveyrone.  It's for the elect. We're a select few.
 
Pray and Lay is right. 


   


Posted: 17 December 2013 10:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
Mountainhippie
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Hopi Bon!:
When I served a mission 25 years ago, it was generally accepted by TBMs that the "gospel" was headed down a one way road to total world domination.  No slowing. No offramps. There would be hundreds of millions of Mormons in our childrens' lifetimes, if Jesus didn't come back sooner to declare Mormons the victors.
 
Ask any leader now, or listen to any conference talk on the topic in the last 5 years, and you'll be told that the Lard's true church isn't for eveyrone.  It's for the elect. We're a select few.
 
Pray and Lay is right. 
 
Yup, so much for the stone rolling forth to cover the earth. This brings to mind the old MAD TV sketch called Lowered Expectations.
 
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Emma Hale Smith Bidamon remains an enigma to most Mormons  
Posted: 25 November 2013 11:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
ldshistorybuff
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She's a fascinating woman - http://blogs.standard.net/the-political-surf/2013/11/25/emma-hale-smith-bidamon-remains-an-enigma-to-most-mormons/ 

   


Posted: 25 November 2013 02:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler
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Well done buff.  Another great write up.  In many ways, the story of Emma Smith and how the Church and its members treat her is exactly what is wrong with the Church today.  The Church has used Emma to help facilitate their correlated story of the restoration.  In the process, another complex character of the restoration goes down the memory hole in the name of preserving faith in the one true church.  It is a shame really because most members are deprived the opportunity to learn about a real person in a way that could benefit their lives.  Instead, Church members all know who Emma Smith is but don't know anything about her.
 
So much has been lost in the name of preserving the one true agenda of the Church.   
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Posted: 25 November 2013 02:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Emma was lovingly remembered in the Ensign last July. Not one word about polygamy, but plenty of misleading pictures.
There's one of Joseph translating the BoM, but no peepstone or hat in sight.
There's another one of Joseph greeting Emma and Joseph III upon his release from Liberty Jail.
Another has ol' peepstone Joe alone in Liberty Jail.
Why would I not agree with images of Joseph in Liberty Jail? After 6 months in a dungeon, would you expect him to look hale and hardy? NO! Would you expect him to be clean-shaven and with a reasonably groomed haircut? NO! Would you expect him to be in clean clothes? NO!
 
The church can't put JS  in a bad light, so all images of him are pure and holy. All that's missing is the halo.
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Posted: 26 November 2013 07:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
moronie-balonie
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What I find annoying is how the church flip-flops on things that they used to regularly teach.  Back in my younger years I clearly remember that  the church used to teach us that Emma "wasn't faithful" and that is why she didn't follow the saints to Utah.  She was not spoken of in hushed and reverent tones like she is today.  One of the last times I attended RS (gosh, has it been a year already)the teacher told us how Emma chose to stay behind in order to care for Joseph's elderly mother, who was too frail to make the trip.  No mention of the fact that BY and Emma didn't like each other, or that JS had multiple wives and Emma was hurt by all this.  Or that Emma thought that her son should be the next prophet etc, etc. SIGH


   


            
 
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Some active church members discuss other members decision to leave  
Posted: 23 November 2013 08:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Curious NeverMo
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I wonder if this would be of interest.  
 
It indicates to me that defections are becoming such a predictable part of the fabric of Mormonism that families are coming up wiith their own strategies for coping and willing to discuss it publicly.  


   


Posted: 23 November 2013 09:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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eddie
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Having grown up in the pre-Internet and pre-name removal era, the current situation is even more surprising. The number of name removals/resignations has definitely increased over the last 15 years. Most wards that I am familiar with have had several individuals and/or families leave. It is also more common for stalwart members with visible callings to leave. As you say, it is a situation that is impossible to ignore any longer.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           
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Posted: 23 November 2013 09:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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4thNephite
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Interesting article and comments. Thanks for sharing.
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Posted: 23 November 2013 11:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Robby Sunshine
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To react to the apostasy of loved ones the way Mr. Barney and most of his commenters do displays admirable tolerance and humility (humility of the 'I-could-be-wrong' variety, not the perverse LDS ideal of constant deference to the brethren). It also shows either a lack of understanding about Church teachings regarding the fate of apostates or a disinclination to take those teachings seriously. A true believer who fervently believes that families can only be together "through Heavenly Father's Plan" and that those who reject the gospel are subject to the buffeting of boogeyman-Satan until ultimately banished to the Telestial Kingdom or worse could not be expected to be so non chalant. It is quite possible that Mr. Barney and others like him are more culturally than ideologically bound to the Church. If so, good for them. It may also be that they merely believe that their best bet for reintegration is to do nothing but love them (as some of the commenters hint at). If so, that shows patience and maturity but I would always be leery of promoting any painful false hope with such a loved one and would always wonder if such patience would last indefinitly. Much better to achieve a genuine level of mutual acceptance without expectation. That's possible with a cultural Mormon I suppose but not with a true believer.
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Posted: 25 November 2013 10:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler
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The problem is getting to the point where tbms are not going to have a choice but to talk to each other openly and publicly about it.  The church can't sweep apostacy under the rug anymore.  The church also can't keep those who no longer believe isolated and marginalized.  TBMs are going to have to make a decision regarding how much they really want to believe in their own religion.  Is their testimony worth cheapening the relationships with those they love the most in this life?  Non believers know when they are not being respected or treated as equal.  Clearly, the author has found a way to not look at his own tbm path as being the one true or best or only right path in life.  He seems to have found a way to respect his other family members paths as much as his own.  Mormons like this are not the enemy.
 
However, I don't think the Church wants Mormons like this.....or at least they don't want too many of them.
 
Non of it is going to matter in the end.  So many people are going to keep leaving the church or otherwise top believing in the fairy tale that tbms are going to have no choice but to embrace those that have left. 
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Posted: 25 November 2013 10:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Lord of Darkness
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Interesting article.  Thanks for sharing.
 
I found the comments after the article to be a bit out of touch with reality.  This notion of people leaving the church and not being ostracized by their family, friends, and neighbors is fictional.  Those comments describe the exception and not the rule.
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Posted: 25 November 2013 12:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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People still get shunned, divorced, written out of wills etc. for leaving the church. In order for that to change, the change has to come from the "brethren". They have to come right out and make a bold statement, maybe even an "official declaration" and add it to the D&C, something to this effect:
 
It is official church policy, and the Will of God, that members stop shunning apostates and applying sanctions of any kind to them. The question about affiliating with apostate groups will be removed from the temple recommend interview. Any member who does not treat an apostate member with a Christ-like attitude will be subject to church discipline.
 
It's sad, but it will HAVE TO BE THIS WAY. Nothing less will do. Ucthdorf's platitudes at the last conference were not enough. People will still treat family badly. Shit! Doesn't that sound horrible? Treating family badly, for god's sake! But to the TBM, unless an iron-clad directive comes down from SLC, they justify the bad treatment in the name of God. And then they deny they belong to a cult.
 
Ain't gonna happen. 
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Posted: 25 November 2013 12:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
Curious NeverMo
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Lord of Darkness:
Interesting article.  Thanks for sharing.
 
I found the comments after the article to be a bit out of touch with reality.  This notion of people leaving the church and not being ostracized by their family, friends, and neighbors is fictional.  Those comments describe the exception and not the rule.
 
No doubt there's still much more real and anticipated pain than some of the comments indicated.  Still, I think it's instructive for demonstrating how dealing with defecting members has become a commonplace issue in contemporary Mormon life.  
 
Meanwhile, I think you can take some degree of heart that, as it becomes more ordinary, it will become a choice for far more people.   Over time there will be less intimidation and people second guessing themselves and the reactions of their loved ones.  Less treating people as though they're tragic or "lost".  There will be more of people seeing ex-Mormons going on with their lives in constructive ways.  The possibility will be real, available and predictable.  
 
Personally, I think this all translates to a healthier environment for those who want to leave AND those choosing Mormonism as a way of life.   


   


            
 
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Official church historian admits the church leaders have been lying  
Posted: 14 November 2013 06:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Jeff Ricks
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The webpage below is taken from an itnerview of Steven Snow, the church's head historian. In it he essentially admits that the church leaders have been lying about it's past. He also tacitly admits that they would still be lying were it not for the internet.
 
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/truth-in-church-history-excerpts-from-the-religious-educators-qa-with-elder-steven-snow/
 
Below is a copy of the content of the page with my comments inserted. 
 
On the Church’s increasing openness with regard to history:
“My view is that being open [honest] about our history solves a whole lot more problems than it creates. We might not have all the answers, but if we are open [honest] (and we now have pretty remarkable transparency), then I think in the long run that will serve us well [nothing said about it being the right thing to do]. I think in the past there was a tendency to keep a lot of the records closed or at least not give access to information [they suppressed truth]. But the world has changed in the last generation—with the access to information on the Internet, we can’t continue that pattern [of dishonesty]; I think we need to continue to be more open [honest].”
On improving Seminary and Institute curriculum: 
“That is where we need to improve. Fortunately Seminaries and Institutes and Curriculum have really stepped up and said in essence, ‘You know we really want to take this on, we would like to talk about these sensitive issues in our seminaries and institutes.’ It’s one thing to tell a fourteen-year-old some of these sensitive things and they say, ‘OK, that’s great.’ [because they're young and gullible] But sometimes when you are twenty-something, it comes across a little differently [as in, "That's bullshit"]. I think we can build faith and better prepare people if we will weave some of the unusual [true but faith-damaging] threads in history into the curriculum.” [nothing said about improving sunday school, gospel doctrine, and priesthood curriculum] 
On the claim that only believing Latter-day Saints can write an accurate history of the Church:
“I don’t agree with that. I think it depends what you call Mormon history and Church history. If you are making a distinction between those two, then maybe you could say that. I think the facts are the facts. We may not understand all the reasons and we may want to make some explanation. We are not always in possession of all the facts. I think we need to be as accurate as we can, as faith promoting as we can, but we need to continue to seek new truths and insights. . Every week is like discovery time. There are new treasures that come to light, and it deepens our understanding. We can find things that may shift our thinking a little bit.
“Every generation rewrites history [he tacitly admits the church has rewritten its history] a little bit with their own methods and perspectives; that’s okay [an historian essentially says that it's okay to fabricate history]. We try to tell the story as accurately as possible [while leaving many of the important facts out] and then we hope there will be those of faith who will step forward and add other insights [so they can be the fall guys, not us]. Many with whom you associate at BYU write faith-promoting works based on the history we find. I think we need to be very careful that we are accurate, because if we aren’t [and if we keep producing the same non-scholarly crap], it can come back to really haunt us. It’s good to tell the truth. [no freaking kidding!]”
On dealing with difficult aspects of Church history:
“You have to approach it with faith [make-believe], and you’ve got to balance faith [make-believe] with reason. We hope people study Church history. We hope they study Church history a lot. But I would add, don’t forget what brought you to it in the first place. Don’t give up. Don’t jump out of the boat. Stay in the boat and rely on the faith [make-believe] and testimony that you do have. Because in my view, the more you study, the more your faith [make-believe] will grow and develop. There will be a few questions we are just going to have to put on the shelf and get to later. Some we will answer in this mortal existence, others we may have to wait. But the big questions, the important questions will get answered if we exercise our faith [make-believe]” 
 
 
[Edited a few times to add additional insights that came to me] 
 
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Posted: 14 November 2013 08:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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howdimissthat
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Awesome.   (yawn)  How anyone can say we need to be "accurate" followed up by "yet balance faith with reason"  Well, that's why I'm here and no longer believe, I chose the accurate part  and stopped trying to balance that with, as you put it, make believe.  I found it an impossible feat that would never balance out. 

   


Posted: 14 November 2013 09:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
fled Utah
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I am not quite ready to all call faith make-believe, but I still laughed by head off while I read this. A laugh that I really needed today. So thanks. I wonder about faith. Do you think some of you would have continued to live with some faith in your life if the church had not required such blind faith. Or maybe you are already. What aspects of faith are you holding on to? I feel like some of us have to throw the baby (faith) out with the bath water (Church) BECAUSE the bath water (church) turned out to be acid ... and killed our baby. How much more can they take from me? 

   


Posted: 14 November 2013 09:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Jeff Ricks
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fled Utah:
I am not quite ready to all call faith make-believe, but I still laughed by head off while I read this. A laugh that I really needed today. So thanks. I wonder about faith. Do you think some of you would have continued to live with some faith in your life if the church had not required such blind faith. Or maybe you are already. What aspects of faith are you holding on to? I feel like some of us have to throw the baby (faith) out with the bath water (Church) BECAUSE the bath water (church) turned out to be acid ... and killed our baby. How much more can they take from me?
 
These days I think of faith this way. Faith is appropriate when describing a calculated, reasoned, tenative conclusion. Faith is inappropriate when used as an excuse to adamantly believe in something imagined that's based on little to no evidence.  I think it's better to leave the blanks blank rather than fill them in with wishful thinking.
 
 
 
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When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine


   


Posted: 14 November 2013 09:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Just keep shoveling that poo, higher and deeper.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 14 November 2013 09:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler
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Wow, is this guy walking a tightrope or what?  Reading his words, I could see his mind carefully choosing each word and concept.  He has to be honest enough so he retains at least a little credibility because the horse has clearly left the barn while at the same time talking in enough code to keep tbms from not giving any of this a second thought.
 
Welcome to being the head church historian................BITCH! (in honor of Jesse Pinkman and the show breaking bad) 
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They say that I am crazy
My life wasting on this road
That time will find my dreams
Scared or dead and cold
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Drawing me to reach an end
And when I reach there, I’ll turn back
And you and I can begin again

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Posted: 14 November 2013 09:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
fled Utah
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Jeff Ricks:
fled Utah:
I am not quite ready to all call faith make-believe, but I still laughed by head off while I read this. A laugh that I really needed today. So thanks. I wonder about faith. Do you think some of you would have continued to live with some faith in your life if the church had not required such blind faith. Or maybe you are already. What aspects of faith are you holding on to? I feel like some of us have to throw the baby (faith) out with the bath water (Church) BECAUSE the bath water (church) turned out to be acid ... and killed our baby. How much more can they take from me?
 
These days I think of faith this way. Faith is appropriate when describing a calculated, reasoned, tenative conclusion. Faith is inappropriate when used as an excuse to adamantly believe in something imagined that's based on little to no evidence.  I think it's better to leave the blanks blank rather than fill them in with wishful thinking.
 
 
 
 
 thanks, Jeff. That gives me something to think about. Wishful thinking is so fun -- but it probably should stay at disneyland. 
 
My daughter watched animated movie about a princesses, a prince, and a swan. After the movie she said, some of that was real and some of that was pretend (a strategy from school about understanding fantacy.) Then she said, it is true because there COULD be a prince and princess that loved each other and not married, and it is not true becasue you can turn into a swan.  She actually took me off gaurd, and then I came back to reality and said, "You are right about the swan. But actually this whole story is pretend. That is what fiction means. Non-fiction means it actually happened -- not just that is CAN happen." Anyway, make believe is fun. But I see now that part of it in my life was causing a lot of pain, and as I have mentioned -- i decided it is not fair to take my love of make believe into my children's reality. I feel a great loss of innocene. A great mourning for my faith. 
 
I am still faithful and prone to make believe. It is who I am. : ) 


   


Posted: 14 November 2013 10:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Jeff Ricks
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fled Utah:
Jeff Ricks:
fled Utah:
I am not quite ready to all call faith make-believe, but I still laughed by head off while I read this. A laugh that I really needed today. So thanks. I wonder about faith. Do you think some of you would have continued to live with some faith in your life if the church had not required such blind faith. Or maybe you are already. What aspects of faith are you holding on to? I feel like some of us have to throw the baby (faith) out with the bath water (Church) BECAUSE the bath water (church) turned out to be acid ... and killed our baby. How much more can they take from me?
 
These days I think of faith this way. Faith is appropriate when describing a calculated, reasoned, tenative conclusion. Faith is inappropriate when used as an excuse to adamantly believe in something imagined that's based on little to no evidence.  I think it's better to leave the blanks blank rather than fill them in with wishful thinking.
 
 
 
 
 thanks, Jeff. That gives me something to think about. Wishful thinking is so fun -- but it probably should stay at disneyland. 
 
My daughter watched animated movie about a princesses, a prince, and a swan. After the movie she said, some of that was real and some of that was pretend (a strategy from school about understanding fantacy.) Then she said, it is true because there COULD be a prince and princess that loved each other and not married, and it is not true becasue you can turn into a swan.  She actually took me off gaurd, and then I came back to reality and said, "You are right about the swan. But actually this whole story is pretend. That is what fiction means. Non-fiction means it actually happened -- not just that is CAN happen." Anyway, make believe is fun. But I see now that part of it in my life was causing a lot of pain, and as I have mentioned -- i decided it is not fair to take my love of make believe into my children's reality. I feel a great loss of innocene. A great mourning for my faith. 
 
I am still faithful and prone to make believe. It is who I am. : ) 
 
I was there in my early post-Mormon days too, so I understand.
 
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When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine


   


Posted: 14 November 2013 10:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
Tincan
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fled Utah:
I am not quite ready to all call faith make-believe, but I still laughed by head off while I read this. A laugh that I really needed today. So thanks. I wonder about faith. Do you think some of you would have continued to live with some faith in your life if the church had not required such blind faith. Or maybe you are already. What aspects of faith are you holding on to? I feel like some of us have to throw the baby (faith) out with the bath water (Church) BECAUSE the bath water (church) turned out to be acid ... and killed our baby. How much more can they take from me?
  (oh, you both already replied, nvm)
 If faith is being used in this context to supposedly balance truths already known in the church's favor, it sounds a lot like make believe. You're going to have to make believe that event didn't happen like that or make believe your integrity away to keep having that faith. The church gives you a package showing how virtuous old church leaders were as proof of the church being true, after all, why would god come down for joseph smith the 7,983,947,122nd greatest man to live on this earth? Given the real history of the church, there are better examples of people out there to live by. "Know them by their fruits." You could say it's a matter of having more faith, but this wasn't the thing I was told to have faith in to begin with. I was told to have faith in the uneducated, non-adulterous, saintly farm boy. Deception being uncovered in this context to me seems to require make believe to continue.  
 
Faith itself and why I do not ascribe to it is a whole in judeo-christian dogma is a seperate entity that took me a few years of introspection, reading, and critical thinking to get to the conclusions I have now.  I can't speak for anyone else, but we all have our own reasons. Just because the church gave us a bad experience with it doesn't mean we're all going to stop being religious and/or spiritual. Nor does it mean the only legitimate reasons we do stop when some of us do is because of the church.
 
 
____________________
It's good to hear some dressed up honesty from officials in the church though.  


   


Posted: 14 November 2013 10:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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dave (e_nomo)
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One of the things that stuck out the most to me was this little parathetical statement
.....(and we now have pretty remarkable transparency).....
 
First of all, in my book, for a church to have 100% transparency would not be remarkable, it is to be expected.  Anything less would be remarkably bad. 
 
And secondly... "now"??  We now have pretty remarkable transparency?
So up until now, the spin, whitewash, obfuscation, lies were OK?
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Posted: 14 November 2013 11:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Very nice write-up Jeff. 

   


Posted: 14 November 2013 11:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Jeff Ricks
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dave (e_nomo):
One of the things that stuck out the most to me was this little parathetical statement
.....(and we now have pretty remarkable transparency).....
 
First of all, in my book, for a church to have 100% transparency would not be remarkable, it is to be expected.  Anything less would be remarkably bad. 
 
And secondly... "now"??  We now have pretty remarkable transparency?
So up until now, the spin, whitewash, obfuscation, lies were OK?
 
Good call, Dave. The church leader's more open behavior is only remarkable when compared to their despicable behavior of the past. But when compared to normal standards, it's still despicable.
 
 
I want to make note that Snow's confessions (and I use that word loosely in the case) will not be seen by probably 95% of the members of the church. The comments are directed at church employed educators, AND to receive the full article you have to subscribe to the magazine, even if you're an educator. I purchased a one year subscription so I can read the entire Snow interview. Apparently I'll receive the issue in the mail. It's not accessible via the Internet for another year. "Remarkably transparent"? Bull freaking shit! 
 
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When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine


   


Posted: 14 November 2013 11:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Jeff Ricks
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MormonThink:
Very nice write-up Jeff.
 
Thanks Bill! 
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When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine


   


Posted: 14 November 2013 12:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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So the educators (seminary/institute teachers) are being asked to participate in the huge cover-up? Hope some have the integrity not to do this.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 14 November 2013 01:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Kori
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Jeff Ricks:
On dealing with difficult aspects of Church history:
“You have to approach it with faith [group think], and you’ve got to balance faith [group think] with reason. We hope people study Church history. We hope they study Church history a lot. But I would add, don’t forget what brought you to it in the first place. Don’t give up. Don’t jump out of the boat. Stay in the boat and rely on the faith [group think] and testimony that you do have. Because in my view, the more you study, the more your faith [group think] will grow and develop. There will be a few questions we are just going to have to put on the shelf and get to later. Some we will answer in this mortal existence, others we may have to wait. But the big questions, the important questions will get answered if we exercise our faith [group think]”
Faith is just a euphamism for group think.
 
"Religion is simply a community [group] of people who gather together on a regular basis to reassure each other that it's okay to continue subscribing to absurdities [group think]. But for me, it's far better to see the world the way it really exists, [through accurate observation and independent thought] rather than persist in delusion [group think], no matter how comforting or reassuring that may seem."  
Carl Sagan
 
This is quite a telling statement, coming from the 'Church Historian'. 
 

"Finding the occasional straw of truth awash in a great ocean of confusion and bamboozle requires intelligence, vigilance, dedication and courage. But if we don't practice these tough habits of thought, we cannot hope to solve the truly serious problems that face us -- and we risk becoming a nation of suckers, up for grabs by the next charlatan who comes along." Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
 
"Religion is simply a community of people who gather together on a regular basis to reassure each other that it's okay to continue subscribing to absurdities. But for me, it's far better to see the world the way it really exists, rather than persist in delusion, no matter how comforting or reassuring that may seem."  Carl Sagan
 
Reality is too harsh a thing for most people to handle without first passing it through some kind of a filter. As a result, we have always made up these abstractions of reality, like myths, metaphors, analogies, and symbols, like "God", "Truth", "Good" and "Evil" to help us simplify the complex and chaotic cosmos that surrounds us. 
But for people like Sagan, the mystery of reality is a beautiful and AWE inspiring thing to behold.
Life on Earth is what matters, not some life in some 'other world' that may not even exist except in the imagination of fools, who propogate their delusion for self gratification and personal gain. 
 
 
 
 Signature
Delusion: Maintaining strong belief in something, despite superior evidence to the contrary.”
“As long as they believe absurdities, they’ll commit atrocities.” Voltaire
“I cause cognitive dissonance, which will either drive them insane, or drive them sane. I hope for the latter, which is all I can do.”  Ayan Hirsi Ali
on what she does to help abuse victims, escape the prison of faith which she escaped, barely


   


Posted: 14 November 2013 02:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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badseed
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I've noticed with every commnet from an LDS leaders that seems to be step or two forward there is always a follow-up disclaimer or step back. Ucthdorf has done it in his talks and Snow is doing the same. After all the talk about being open— which I find completely self-serving — there is the language that is subtle aimed at faithful LDS ignoring all that will be learned with the forthcoming openness.
 
I dont expect anything else really. I just find it telling.
 
These moves are like BP clean up efforts or Wall Street bankers complying with new regulations. They got caught and it's game over unless they adjust. But make no mistake— they really aren't doing this because they believe in it. It's all about self-preservation IMO.


   


Posted: 14 November 2013 03:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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Jeff Ricks
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"My view is that being open about our history solves a whole lot more problems than it creates."
 
 
Why is a leader of a church that bills itself as Truth Restored even weighing the pros and cons of telling the truth? They're god damn hypocrites. 
 
 
 
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When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine


   


Posted: 14 November 2013 05:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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Kori
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Jeff Ricks:
"My view is that being open about our history solves a whole lot more problems than it creates."
 
 
Why is a leader of a church that bills itself as Truth Restored even weighing the pros and cons of telling the truth? They're god damn hypocrites. 
 
 
 
 
I get your anger Jeff.
Words mean something to people like you and me. 
Words like 'truth' mean something.
Words like 'beauty' mean something.
 
"Truth is beauty and beauty is truth
That is all we know in life
And all we need to know"
John Keats,
Ode to a Grecian Urn
 
Until Mormons can convince the rest of us non-Mormons that provable lies represent 'truth' it's not truth. It's the opposite of truth.
 
It's provable lies. It's clearly fraudulent if it's not true.
 
What actually led me to announce to the Mormon world that I was no longer Mormon was sitting in the middle of a Priesthood Session of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, in a sea of suits, my neighbors, friends, the Dr. who delivered all of our children, o  ne of whom was sleeping on my shoulder, while the Prophet spoke and said these words, "Each of us has to face the matter—either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing."
I said aloud, "It is a fraud."
And walked out.
I actually believed those words and took them to heart.
Apparently the church historian did not. 
 Signature
Delusion: Maintaining strong belief in something, despite superior evidence to the contrary.”
“As long as they believe absurdities, they’ll commit atrocities.” Voltaire
“I cause cognitive dissonance, which will either drive them insane, or drive them sane. I hope for the latter, which is all I can do.”  Ayan Hirsi Ali
on what she does to help abuse victims, escape the prison of faith which she escaped, barely


   


Posted: 14 November 2013 06:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
quietlydifferent
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Jeff Ricks:
*snip*
“You have to approach it with faith [make-believe], and you’ve got to balance faith [make-believe] with reason. We hope people study Church history. We hope they study Church history a lot. But I would add, don’t forget what brought you to it in the first place. Don’t give up. Don’t jump out of the boat. Stay in the boat and rely on the faith [make-believe] and testimony that you do have. Because in my view, the more you study, the more your faith [make-believe] will grow and develop. There will be a few questions we are just going to have to put on the shelf and get to later. Some we will answer in this mortal existence, others we may have to wait. But the big questions, the important questions will get answered if we exercise our faith [make-believe]” 
 
 
[Edited a few times to add additional insights that came to me] 
 
 
 [    ] This is what I like to call a red flag. It doesn't have to mean that something is wrong but it does mean you should look very closely so as to avoid being scammed. He is very, very close to saying, "You will find things that make the church look like a fraud. They will look very bad. Remember that you believed in the church before you looked into the 'history' and 'facts'." (I honestly picture finger quotes for the last part). The whole paragraph seems to be saying that the facts look bad but FAITH! (said like the dog says squirrel in UP). It is still a few steps away from admitting that things in Mormon history are f'ed up and point very strongly to the church being false.


   


Posted: 14 November 2013 11:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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MsLed
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fled Utah:
I am not quite ready to all call faith make-believe, but I still laughed by head off while I read this. A laugh that I really needed today. So thanks. I wonder about faith. Do you think some of you would have continued to live with some faith in your life if the church had not required such blind faith. Or maybe you are already. What aspects of faith are you holding on to? I feel like some of us have to throw the baby (faith) out with the bath water (Church) BECAUSE the bath water (church) turned out to be acid ... and killed our baby. How much more can they take from me?
 This is definitely how I feel. Nevermo friends who know my past have asked me if I'd ever join another religion or if I still consider myself a person of faith. I did have experiences as a Mormon that I considered spiritual confirmations that the church was true. I later found incontrovertible evidence that it was not. Therefore, I mistrust my feelings as proof of truth. My emotions and ability to believe were so inextricably tied to the Mormon church that I find myself unable to consider faith in another context. Maybe someday that will change. I honestly don't feel that much need for faith, though. My life is better now than it was when I had faith. And if it turns out there's a god who will judge me when I die, I assume trying to be a good person will be good enough. No all-knowing being would require special handshakes and abstention from coffee I order to be with one's family. Why worry about it when there's no way to know? There's so much to enjoy in life.
 
 


   


Posted: 14 November 2013 11:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
finex
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badseed:
I've noticed with every commnet from an LDS leaders that seems to be step or two forward there is always a follow-up disclaimer or step back. Ucthdorf has done it in his talks and Snow is doing the same. After all the talk about being open— which I find completely self-serving — there is the language that is subtle aimed at faithful LDS ignoring all that will be learned with the forthcoming openness.
 
I dont expect anything else really. I just find it telling.
   
 
 Yeah, my expectations aren't that high either. As you mentioned the Uchtdorf speech well there's a prime example from the last general conference from him (as we all know).
 
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us
 
First he goes...
 
"And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine."
 
 So he admits that church leaders haven't always been doing things according to values, principles or doctrine. So.. Uchtdorf admits that some church leaders have been dishonest and cheats, which might actually upset and cause doubt in people... 
 
"Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters—my dear friends—please, first doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith."
 
So first he admits that the doubts that people might have are indeed justified, but then tries to dismiss the doubts minimizing peoples ability to think straight aka. doubt when there's justification for doubt.
 
So yes, the elder Snows talk is well in line with the Ucthdorf speech. First aknowledging that there's indeed room for doubt, but then going against the very thing claiming that through faith and dismissing your logic, reasoning and doubts you'll receive the answers to the "big and important questions".
 
BAH!


   


Posted: 15 November 2013 07:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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I get the feeling that the "new" historian is going to be going emeritus sometime soon. Like Jensen. Might be a job that the church will someday...dissolve.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 15 November 2013 07:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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Jeff Ricks
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finex:
badseed:
I've noticed with every commnet from an LDS leaders that seems to be step or two forward there is always a follow-up disclaimer or step back. Ucthdorf has done it in his talks and Snow is doing the same. After all the talk about being open— which I find completely self-serving — there is the language that is subtle aimed at faithful LDS ignoring all that will be learned with the forthcoming openness.
 
I dont expect anything else really. I just find it telling.
   
 
 Yeah, my expectations aren't that high either. As you mentioned the Uchtdorf speech well there's a prime example from the last general conference from him (as we all know).
 
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us
 
First he goes...
 
"And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine."
 
 So he admits that church leaders haven't always been doing things according to values, principles or doctrine. So.. Uchtdorf admits that some church leaders have been dishonest and cheats, which might actually upset and cause doubt in people... 
 
"Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters—my dear friends—please, first doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith."
 
So first he admits that the doubts that people might have are indeed justified, but then tries to dismiss the doubts minimizing peoples ability to think straight aka. doubt when there's justification for doubt.
 
So yes, the elder Snows talk is well in line with the Ucthdorf speech. First aknowledging that there's indeed room for doubt, but then going against the very thing claiming that through faith and dismissing your logic, reasoning and doubts you'll receive the answers to the "big and important questions".
 
BAH!
 
Along the same lines, this line from Snow's interview is essentially mutually exclusive: "I think we need to be as accurate as we can, as faith promoting as we can..." 
 
"Doubt the greater accuracy, before you doubt your faith," Ucht-dork would say. 
 
 I say, "Doubt the duplicious double-talk before you doubt the facts."
 
 
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When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine


   


Posted: 15 November 2013 07:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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"Doubt the greater accuracy"....translated: On Oz, we never look behind the curtain. 
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 15 November 2013 08:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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Blue Pill or Red Pill - Morpheus The Matrix
 
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-Nothing beats a failure like a try 
_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 15 November 2013 03:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
sage
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Official church historian admits the church leaders have been lying 

 
 
 
 History is always written wrong, and so always needs to be rewritten. ...What is interesting is brought forward as if it had been central and efficacious in the march of events, and harmonies are turned into causes. Kings and generals are endowed with motives appropriate to what the historian values in their actions; plans are imputed to them prophetic of their actual achievements, while the thoughts that really preoccupied them remain buried in absolute oblivion.
- George Santayana, The Life of Reason: Reason in Science, 1918

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If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away.
- Henry David Thoreau


   


Posted: 15 November 2013 04:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]   

   
 
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Jeff Ricks
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sage:
 
Official church historian admits the church leaders have been lying 

 
 
 
 History is always written wrong, and so always needs to be rewritten. ...What is interesting is brought forward as if it had been central and efficacious in the march of events, and harmonies are turned into causes. Kings and generals are endowed with motives appropriate to what the historian values in their actions; plans are imputed to them prophetic of their actual achievements, while the thoughts that really preoccupied them remain buried in absolute oblivion.
- George Santayana, The Life of Reason: Reason in Science, 1918

 
Sage, it's understandable that human biases enter into the writing of history because we're not perfect. The church leaders are guilty of something different, however. Any honest historian does his or her best to faithfully write history. The church leaders are guilty of intentionally misrepresenting it. 
 
 
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When man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime.—Thomas Paine


   


Posted: 15 November 2013 05:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]   

   
 
sage
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Jeff Ricks:
sage:
      
 
Sage, it's understandable that human biases enter into the writing of history because we're not perfect. The church leaders are guilty of something different, however. Any honest historian does his or her best to faithfully write history. The church leaders are guilty of intentionally misrepresenting it. 
 
 
 
 I totally agree. I previously thought many if not all of the GAs really believed what they were selling. More and more though, I am coming to the conclusion they damn well know they are standing in deep fertilizer.
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- Henry David Thoreau


   


Posted: 17 November 2013 06:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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quietlydifferent:
Jeff Ricks:
*snip*
“You have to approach it with faith [make-believe], and you’ve got to balance faith [make-believe] with reason. We hope people study Church history. We hope they study Church history a lot. But I would add, don’t forget what brought you to it in the first place. Don’t give up. Don’t jump out of the boat. Stay in the boat and rely on the faith [make-believe] and testimony that you do have. Because in my view, the more you study, the more your faith [make-believe] will grow and develop. There will be a few questions we are just going to have to put on the shelf and get to later. Some we will answer in this mortal existence, others we may have to wait. But the big questions, the important questions will get answered if we exercise our faith [make-believe]” 
 
 
[Edited a few times to add additional insights that came to me] 
 
 
 [    ] This is what I like to call a red flag. It doesn't have to mean that something is wrong but it does mean you should look very closely so as to avoid being scammed. He is very, very close to saying, "You will find things that make the church look like a fraud. They will look very bad. Remember that you believed in the church before you looked into the 'history' and 'facts'." (I honestly picture finger quotes for the last part). The whole paragraph seems to be saying that the facts look bad but FAITH! (said like the dog says squirrel in UP). It is still a few steps away from admitting that things in Mormon history are f'ed up and point very strongly to the church being false.
 
 When I write my family exit letter, I plan to tell them that I hope they like being red because the church hopes to turn them into lobsters--cooking them slowly so they won't feel a thing.  Lets face it, a lot of intelligent members will leave--like most of us did; however, there will be some whose need to believe is stronger than their need for truth.  Those will fight--even with themselves--to stay in.  We saw the same pattern in the FLDS women for whom a reporter played an audio tape of Warren Jeffs groaning as he raped young girls in their "temple."  These women chose to believe he was still a prophet and said that it was god--testing their faith.  This kind of thinking is what makes religious fanatisicm an acquired mental illness.  
 
On the up-side, there will be plenty members who will be horrified at the truth and will leave.  The more light that is shone on the ugly truths--the harder it will be for reasonable members to stay in.  What a happy, wonderful thing it is to be a shiner of light! We are on the winning team!


   


            
 
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Michelle Pfeiffer: The day I realised I was part of a cult - Sydney Morning Herald  
Posted: 03 November 2013 05:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Born Free
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Link to SMH story.
The 'Breatharians' are a particulalry interesting cult, IMO, in that they put right centre-stage the Disgust Affect that were absolutely foundation to Dr Paul  (Doctor Disgust) Rozin's work on disgust, and a major element in Jonathan Haidt's work on human judgmentalism.

To only see the idea that humans don't really need to eat, as the key message is Breatharianism, is to miss the important Shadow.
With being able to pass up on Eating, Breatharians get to pass by those really gross activities automatically that follow at the other end of the human digestive tract - defecating and urinating.
This is a variation on the theme 'Your shit doesn't stink'!
 
It is no accident that fundamental religions are obsessed with how we eat, what we eat, how and where we defecate, pass urine and handle human bodily fluids, most particulalry blood, in the case of menstruating and child-delivering women.
 
Religious morality is argued, based upon all the research, to be an outgrowth of our sense of disgust with human eating, disposal of waste, blood, exceretions and secretions.
Another variation on this theme is the idea that sex is not spiritual, and really makes us like animals and degrades. Hence tensions around whether sex is restricted to reproduction or OK to be engaged in for pleasure. Little wonder it is the centre of those great Jewish jokes about whether sex in marriage is for duty or pleasure.
 
See also the thread I started this morning on Shame and the invaluable working on that front by Brene Brown.
 
Daryl
PS: I have had a sister-in-law and mother who both fleetingly found interest in Breatharianism. Both were Mormons at the time.
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‘Our life is the creation of our minds, and we do much of that creating in metaphor…. With the wrong metaphor we are deluded; with no metaphor we are blind. ’ Jonathan Haidt
‘and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl


   


Posted: 04 November 2013 02:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
caedmon
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"We were talking with an ex-Moonie and he was describing the psychological manipulation and I just clicked,” she said in an interview forThe Sunday Telegraph’s Stella magazine."
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/diet-and-fitness/michelle-pfeiffer-the-day-i-realised-i-was-part-of-a-cult-20131104-2wvh4.html#ixzz2jie2yOKv
 
This comment provides insight in how to approach TBMs, discuss other controlling, deceptive groups and their tactics......?


   


            
 
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Forum Home  >  Member Forums  >  The Community Forum  >  Thread 
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If The Truth Be Told  
Posted: 28 October 2013 08:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
drymormon
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Okay, I’m the new guy to this site.  1st question:  What is a TBM?  2nd an introduction:  I am not nor have I ever been a member of the LDS although I have studied the Four Standard Works of the LDS for over 20 years. I’ve read a lot of comments here, most of which are very interesting.  I believe a lot of people are attracted to the LDS because of how the package is wrapped (or they have known nothing else).  The outside is amazingly beautiful and most want to see what’s inside the package.  After all it’s big and beautiful so there has to be something extraordinary inside. 
When they un-wrap the package they think wow, what a beautiful item this is and they immediately want to be part of it.  Once they accept what was wrapped up in the first package they see another package.  They believe since the first package appeared so nice they assume this second package must also be as nice as the first.  Then there is a third and fourth package and so on.  Before they know it they are deep inside of something they truly know nothing about because they relied on someone else to tell them what they should believe instead of finding out the truth for themselves by studying the scriptures.  They were blinded and deafened; they could no longer see nor hear the truth.  A lot of members would not be members or they would be ex-members if they had sought the truth for themselves and not listened to others.

Some of you may disagree with me when I say JSJr and the church he established has fulfilled more latter day scripture than a lot of people can imagine.  Even though scripture does not mention JSJr and the LDS church by name they have been spoken about by many ancient prophets; just not in the manner the LDS believe they have.  The ancient prophets have spoke about many things that must and will take place in these last days and JSJr and the church he established is just one of them. www.truthaboutldsmormons.com 

   


Posted: 28 October 2013 08:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Another kook.  Another in a long line of delusional people who knows stuff YOU haven't the brains to figure out.  And damn it, the LDS leadership, to whom he's revealed his findings, are ignoring him!!!  
 
Here's what he wants to do, as stated on his cited webpage:
 
This website is dedicated to the many wonderful Christians who belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.  I've studied the Four Standard Works for over 20 years, asked many questions and written many things.  These questions and writings have been directed and given to the leadership of the Latter Day Saints with little or no reply or answers to my questions.  Now I make these questions and writings available to the members of the church so they might see what I have been shown in the scriptures and perhaps start asking their leadership some of the same questions.  Rely on what you read in the scriptures before you rely on any man's direction or opinions.
Please Note:  If the leadership of the LDS has not seen what the scriptures have shown after this last study was completed, posted, and sent to the leadership I find it necessary to let them be.  I pray one day they will see what God has shown me in my studies of His scriptures.  I have put these studies in book form and titled it, "That Great Abominable Church."
 
Buy his book and maybe he'll be content.... 


   


Posted: 28 October 2013 09:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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MormonThink
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A TBM is a True-Believing Member. Someone that accepts everything the LDS church teaches as 100% true without question. 

   


Posted: 28 October 2013 09:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Silverwings
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Aren't scriptures written by men and are therefore directions by them? wink
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Posted: 28 October 2013 09:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
drymormon
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Elder OldDog:
Another kook.  Another in a long line of delusional people who knows stuff YOU haven't the brains to figure out.  And damn it, the LDS leadership, to whom he's revealed his findings, are ignoring him!!!  
 
Here's what he wants to do, as stated on his cited webpage:
 
This website is dedicated to the many wonderful Christians who belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.  I've studied the Four Standard Works for over 20 years, asked many questions and written many things.  These questions and writings have been directed and given to the leadership of the Latter Day Saints with little or no reply or answers to my questions.  Now I make these questions and writings available to the members of the church so they might see what I have been shown in the scriptures and perhaps start asking their leadership some of the same questions.  Rely on what you read in the scriptures before you rely on any man's direction or opinions.
Please Note:  If the leadership of the LDS has not seen what the scriptures have shown after this last study was completed, posted, and sent to the leadership I find it necessary to let them be.  I pray one day they will see what God has shown me in my studies of His scriptures.  I have put these studies in book form and titled it, "That Great Abominable Church."
 
Buy his book and maybe he'll be content.... 
Every person is entitled to his or her own opinions.  Thank you for your thoughts.  By the way, the book is not for sale as it is free if you want to download it.
 


   


Posted: 28 October 2013 11:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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MishMagnet
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Your analogy is the same as the frog who is placed in room temperature water and then the water is slowly turned up and the frog doesn't realize it until it's too late.
 
This was disproven on Mythbusters (the frog in the water) but it's how we were taught that WE happen - people who leave the church under the influence of Satan (I guess the water in the frog analogy.)
 
My personal belief on scriptures is that they are likely retroactive in nature.  Events happen that can then be related back and made to fit previous 'revelation'.  One need only look at the 9/11 folklore to see a multitude of revelations that were fulfilled - mainly by people trying to find meaning of a terrible event.  I mean, you can fold up a 10$ bill (it's some bill, maybe the $1) in such a way that the burning 2 towers are on one side and the burning pentagon is on the other.   Revelation!  Prophesy!
 
I am not persuaded that Joseph Smith was a prophet nor anyone that came before him.  Thus whether he fulfilled "prophesy" or not - just a matter of opinion.
 
I can only speak for myself - if there is a God I don't know why Joseph Smith or any other person would be more worthy of receiving information than anyone else.  Those that tell you they have information you need and they are a special recipient that needs to be listened to do not go far in my book.  Not any longer.
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Posted: 28 October 2013 12:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Elder OldDog:
Another kook.  Another in a long line of delusional people who knows stuff YOU haven't the brains to figure out.  And damn it, the LDS leadership, to whom he's revealed his findings, are ignoring him!!!  
 
Here's what he wants to do, as stated on his cited webpage:
 
This website is dedicated to the many wonderful Christians who belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.  I've studied the Four Standard Works for over 20 years, asked many questions and written many things.  These questions and writings have been directed and given to the leadership of the Latter Day Saints with little or no reply or answers to my questions.  Now I make these questions and writings available to the members of the church so they might see what I have been shown in the scriptures and perhaps start asking their leadership some of the same questions.  Rely on what you read in the scriptures before you rely on any man's direction or opinions.
Please Note:  If the leadership of the LDS has not seen what the scriptures have shown after this last study was completed, posted, and sent to the leadership I find it necessary to let them be.  I pray one day they will see what God has shown me in my studies of His scriptures.  I have put these studies in book form and titled it, "That Great Abominable Church."
 
Buy his book and maybe he'll be content.... 
 
 [gentle moderator note:  Please, be kind.  There but for the grace of golf, and all that.  ]
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Posted: 28 October 2013 12:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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drymormon:
Okay, I’m the new guy to this site.  1st question:  What is a TBM?  2nd an introduction:  I am not nor have I ever been a member of the LDS although I have studied the Four Standard Works of the LDS for over 20 years. I’ve read a lot of comments here, most of which are very interesting.  I believe a lot of people are attracted to the LDS because of how the package is wrapped (or they have known nothing else).  The outside is amazingly beautiful and most want to see what’s inside the package.  After all it’s big and beautiful so there has to be something extraordinary inside. 
When they un-wrap the package they think wow, what a beautiful item this is and they immediately want to be part of it.  Once they accept what was wrapped up in the first package they see another package.  They believe since the first package appeared so nice they assume this second package must also be as nice as the first.  Then there is a third and fourth package and so on.  Before they know it they are deep inside of something they truly know nothing about because they relied on someone else to tell them what they should believe instead of finding out the truth for themselves by studying the scriptures.  They were blinded and deafened; they could no longer see nor hear the truth.  A lot of members would not be members or they would be ex-members if they had sought the truth for themselves and not listened to others.

Some of you may disagree with me when I say JSJr and the church he established has fulfilled more latter day scripture than a lot of people can imagine.  Even though scripture does not mention JSJr and the LDS church by name they have been spoken about by many ancient prophets; just not in the manner the LDS believe they have.  The ancient prophets have spoke about many things that must and will take place in these last days and JSJr and the church he established is just one of them. www.truthaboutldsmormons.com
 
Welcome.  When you get a minute, please scan through our house rules.  (Link at the top of the page.)  Please keep in mind that this is a support site for those leaving mormonism, not necessarily for those looking for some variant of mormonism.
 
Thanks. 
 
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

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Posted: 28 October 2013 02:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
quietlydifferent
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drymormon:
Okay, I’m the new guy to this site.  1st question:  What is a TBM?  2nd an introduction:  I am not nor have I ever been a member of the LDS although I have studied the Four Standard Works of the LDS for over 20 years. I’ve read a lot of comments here, most of which are very interesting.  I believe a lot of people are attracted to the LDS because of how the package is wrapped (or they have known nothing else).  The outside is amazingly beautiful and most want to see what’s inside the package.  After all it’s big and beautiful so there has to be something extraordinary inside. 
When they un-wrap the package they think wow, what a beautiful item this is and they immediately want to be part of it.  Once they accept what was wrapped up in the first package they see another package.  They believe since the first package appeared so nice they assume this second package must also be as nice as the first.  Then there is a third and fourth package and so on.  Before they know it they are deep inside of something they truly know nothing about because they relied on someone else to tell them what they should believe instead of finding out the truth for themselves by studying the scriptures.  They were blinded and deafened; they could no longer see nor hear the truth.  A lot of members would not be members or they would be ex-members if they had sought the truth for themselves and not listened to others.

Some of you may disagree with me when I say JSJr and the church he established has fulfilled more latter day scripture than a lot of people can imagine.  Even though scripture does not mention JSJr and the LDS church by name they have been spoken about by many ancient prophets; just not in the manner the LDS believe they have.  The ancient prophets have spoke about many things that must and will take place in these last days and JSJr and the church he established is just one of them. www.truthaboutldsmormons.com
 
 I would be among those who whould disagree with you on that. Most of the "Prophecies" you speak of are either so vague you could interpret them so many ways as to make them utterly meaningless or easily followed instructions for making yourself look legit.
 
I would also point that your entire view relies on the premise that the Bible is infallible, means what you interpret it to mean and that it is a valid way to determine the truthfullness of anything. That premise is extremely far from being proven or really that defendable so an argument based upon it isn't very strong. I don't believe the Bible to be infallible and it is full of contradictions (that some Christian deal with in admirable ways) and is fairly clearly not 100% true as it argues with itself at several points (once again, several Christians handle this in a understandable and fairly reasonable way). As far as what you interpret it as saying there are a lot of interpretations of the Bible and most would likely differ greatly from yours and it also depends on which version of the Bible you are reading (there are a lot and they differ in significant ways). Lastly, I don't hold that the Bible is a valid way of determining the truthfullness of much. 
 
 To adress my own curiosity: If you actually feel that the LDS church has fulfilled so many prophesies why haven't you joined? If there is a valid reason not to join what does that say about the prophesies you mention?


   


Posted: 28 October 2013 02:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
Joycee
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drymormon:
Okay, I’m the new guy to this site.  1st question:  What is a TBM?  2nd an introduction:  I am not nor have I ever been a member of the LDS although I have studied the Four Standard Works of the LDS for over 20 years. I’ve read a lot of comments here, most of which are very interesting.  I believe a lot of people are attracted to the LDS because of how the package is wrapped (or they have known nothing else).  The outside is amazingly beautiful and most want to see what’s inside the package.  After all it’s big and beautiful so there has to be something extraordinary inside. 
When they un-wrap the package they think wow, what a beautiful item this is and they immediately want to be part of it.  Once they accept what was wrapped up in the first package they see another package.  They believe since the first package appeared so nice they assume this second package must also be as nice as the first.  Then there is a third and fourth package and so on.  Before they know it they are deep inside of something they truly know nothing about because they relied on someone else to tell them what they should believe instead of finding out the truth for themselves by studying the scriptures.  They were blinded and deafened; they could no longer see nor hear the truth.  A lot of members would not be members or they would be ex-members if they had sought the truth for themselves and not listened to others.

Some of you may disagree with me when I say JSJr and the church he established has fulfilled more latter day scripture than a lot of people can imagine.  Even though scripture does not mention JSJr and the LDS church by name they have been spoken about by many ancient prophets; just not in the manner the LDS believe they have.  The ancient prophets have spoke about many things that must and will take place in these last days and JSJr and the church he established is just one of them. www.truthaboutldsmormons.com
 
Um yeah, MOST of us disagree, that's why the name of this site is PostMormon.org.  You won't get much sympathy here unfortunately, especially considering many of us are also non theist and don't believe in "prophets" or "prophesy" at all. I highly doubt the exmo theists on here would agree with your theory either, so, you're striking out on both counts.  This may not be the forum you are looking for, but good luck to you anyway, I guess.  


   


Posted: 28 October 2013 07:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler
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Posted: 28 October 2013 07:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
Elder OldDog:
Another kook.  Another in a long line of delusional people who knows stuff YOU haven't the brains to figure out.  And damn it, the LDS leadership, to whom he's revealed his findings, are ignoring him!!!  
 
      <snipped>
 
Buy his book and maybe he'll be content.... 
 
 [gentle moderator note:  Please, be kind.  There but for the grace of golf, and all that.  ]
 
 I am deeply deeply sorry for failing to take into account the fact that kooks are, in and of themselves, not the problem.  If you (the general, plural you, not you, Brad) are a kook and I offended you, I apologize.
 
But to claim that you've been reading posts on this site, but didn't read the mission statement, nor the vocab guide, and to then announce that you (the OP) have special knowledge that the Mormon Church isn't accepting, and expect to receive a genial, "Hey, are we glad to see you!" welcome...  Well...
 
So anyway, Dry Mormon, welcome to PostMormon.  Ask me a question and I'll do my best to give you a calm, cogent answer based on my nonexistent belief in Truth.  I doubt that it will go well, but I won't be all up in your grill.   


   


Posted: 29 October 2013 04:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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quietlydifferent:
 
 I would be among those who whould disagree with you on that. Most of the "Prophecies" you speak of are either so vague you could interpret them so many ways as to make them utterly meaningless or easily followed instructions for making yourself look legit.
 
I would also point that your entire view relies on the premise that the Bible is infallible, means what you interpret it to mean and that it is a valid way to determine the truthfullness of anything. That premise is extremely far from being proven or really that defendable so an argument based upon it isn't very strong. I don't believe the Bible to be infallible and it is full of contradictions (that some Christian deal with in admirable ways) and is fairly clearly not 100% true as it argues with itself at several points (once again, several Christians handle this in a understandable and fairly reasonable way). As far as what you interpret it as saying there are a lot of interpretations of the Bible and most would likely differ greatly from yours and it also depends on which version of the Bible you are reading (there are a lot and they differ in significant ways). Lastly, I don't hold that the Bible is a valid way of determining the truthfullness of much. 
 
 To adress my own curiosity: If you actually feel that the LDS church has fulfilled so many prophesies why haven't you joined? If there is a valid reason not to join what does that say about the prophesies you mention?
 
Thank you Quiet.  I assure you I am not trying to make myself look legit or anything else and you are right about prophecies being vague as many of them are.  The Bible was written by many men so yes a lot of it can be left up to interpretation and opinions.  I am aware of these things and I use the standard King James Version. As for your curiosity:  I learned many years ago through a great deal of studying the four standard works that today there have been fifteen million people misled by one misguided man and all the leaders who followed him.  Through studying the 4SWs I feel I have proven beyond all reasonable doubt JSJr was a misled soul.  He was unworthy to partake of the true sacrament offering and that is why it was removed from him and all who follow his teachings since August of 1830 even until today.  This is not my opinion, nor my interpretation.  It is scripture supported proof (Sacrament Change, Scriptural Proof on my web site). Please know I am not trying to sell myself as anything.  I am not trying to make a buck from anyone as you can down load everything I have written for free.  Everything I have written supports your decision to leave the church.  All I am trying to do is to show others who still belong to the Church that they may want to reconsider and leave themselves.  I am also trying to show anyone who is considering joining the church that they might want to reconsider.  If I came across in any other way I do apologize to you all.
 


   


Posted: 29 October 2013 04:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
drymormon
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Joycee:
 
Um yeah, MOST of us disagree, that's why the name of this site is PostMormon.org.  You won't get much sympathy here unfortunately, especially considering many of us are also non theist and don't believe in "prophets" or "prophesy" at all. I highly doubt the exmo theists on here would agree with your theory either, so, you're striking out on both counts.  This may not be the forum you are looking for, but good luck to you anyway, I guess.  
 
Hi Joycee:  I know I can find sympathy in the dictionary if I ever want any and I am truly not looking for it here.  I have looked at several web sites and found this one the most interesting so far.  It's hard for me to answer whether there are prophets or not in today's world.  I know prophets existed in pre-Jesus times, but I think Jesus replaced the need for prophets.  I do believe there are religious leaders today and they have been placed where they are by God.  I don't believe president Monson is one of those leaders as he is just like all the other leaders since JSJr was removed from his position of leadership.  Thanks for your comment. 

   


Posted: 29 October 2013 04:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
drymormon
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Elder OldDog:
 I am deeply deeply sorry for failing to take into account the fact that kooks are, in and of themselves, not the problem.  If you (the general, plural you, not you, Brad) are a kook and I offended you, I apologize.
 
But to claim that you've been reading posts on this site, but didn't read the mission statement, nor the vocab guide, and to then announce that you (the OP) have special knowledge that the Mormon Church isn't accepting, and expect to receive a genial, "Hey, are we glad to see you!" welcome...  Well...
 
So anyway, Dry Mormon, welcome to PostMormon.  Ask me a question and I'll do my best to give you a calm, cogent answer based on my nonexistent belief in Truth.  I doubt that it will go well, but I won't be all up in your grill.   
Elder, Please know I was not in the least bit offended by your comment.  I have been called many things in my life and kook is one of the nicer names so no apology necessary. I only found this site yesterday and I did read several posts for about 3 hours before deciding to post myself.  I did not read the mission statement until this morning, but I did read the introduction page and the house rules before posting.  I did find the vocabulary guide this morning and I probably should have read it yesterday had I known it existed. As for the special knowledge The Mormon Church is not accepting?  Many years ago I was asked to stop attending the local ward because I asked too many questions.  I could not accept what was being served without asking what it was.  My questions stemmed from studying their doctrines that were not in agreement with their scriptures.  So no, I have not received a ^5 and welcome from the church and I doubt I ever will.  I may find by self like the frog mentioned earlier. I am sure I can learn a lot from you and hope we can continue to share in the future.
 
 


   


Posted: 29 October 2013 03:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
quietlydifferent
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drymormon:
quietlydifferent:
 
 I would be among those who whould disagree with you on that. Most of the "Prophecies" you speak of are either so vague you could interpret them so many ways as to make them utterly meaningless or easily followed instructions for making yourself look legit.
 
I would also point that your entire view relies on the premise that the Bible is infallible, means what you interpret it to mean and that it is a valid way to determine the truthfullness of anything. That premise is extremely far from being proven or really that defendable so an argument based upon it isn't very strong. I don't believe the Bible to be infallible and it is full of contradictions (that some Christian deal with in admirable ways) and is fairly clearly not 100% true as it argues with itself at several points (once again, several Christians handle this in a understandable and fairly reasonable way). As far as what you interpret it as saying there are a lot of interpretations of the Bible and most would likely differ greatly from yours and it also depends on which version of the Bible you are reading (there are a lot and they differ in significant ways). Lastly, I don't hold that the Bible is a valid way of determining the truthfullness of much. 
 
 To adress my own curiosity: If you actually feel that the LDS church has fulfilled so many prophesies why haven't you joined? If there is a valid reason not to join what does that say about the prophesies you mention?
 
Thank you Quiet.  I assure you I am not trying to make myself look legit or anything else and you are right about prophecies being vague as many of them are.  The Bible was written by many men so yes a lot of it can be left up to interpretation and opinions.  I am aware of these things and I use the standard King James Version. As for your curiosity:  I learned many years ago through a great deal of studying the four standard works that today there have been fifteen million people misled by one misguided man and all the leaders who followed him.  Through studying the 4SWs I feel I have proven beyond all reasonable doubt JSJr was a misled soul.  He was unworthy to partake of the true sacrament offering and that is why it was removed from him and all who follow his teachings since August of 1830 even until today.  This is not my opinion, nor my interpretation.  It is scripture supported proof (Sacrament Change, Scriptural Proof on my web site). Please know I am not trying to sell myself as anything.  I am not trying to make a buck from anyone as you can down load everything I have written for free.  Everything I have written supports your decision to leave the church.  All I am trying to do is to show others who still belong to the Church that they may want to reconsider and leave themselves.  I am also trying to show anyone who is considering joining the church that they might want to reconsider.  If I came across in any other way I do apologize to you all.
 
 
 I have to point out the contradiction here. How can something that is vague and up for interpretation be used as proof. I mean, sure scientific results often need some interpretation but there is methodology for doing so. I am a little curious about your methodology for determing how to interpret the Bible. If you are using problems in LDS scripture or conficts with the behaviors and actions of Joseph Smith Jr and other early church leaders then you are talking to the choir here. Most people here are pretty aware of that kind of thing. There aren't really any people here that need help getting out of the church.


   


            
 
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We should protect the church even after we leave.  
Posted: 17 October 2013 01:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Youngsinglerunning
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So last night I did stand up in my local club.  I did alot of stand up in NYC but it was hard to do because as a mormon girl i was limmited in what i could talk about or relate with people and i also did not want to bring up the church because then other people in the room would make fun.  
 
Last night i did stand up for the frist time as a ex-mo and i killed.  I basically just told stories from my blog.  All the crazyness of being a 27 year old vergin.  and I KILLED!  The room was roaring and people were totaly impressed.
 
Funny thing was I did not mention I was mormon.  After word one of the other stand ups asked if I used to be mormon and said he thought I sould use that in my act.  I cringed at the Idea.  I still felt like i needed to protect the religon.
 
Have you ever felt the need to protect the church?  Why do we feel so bad mocking mormons even in jest?  I guess its kinda like they are nice people and we don't want to hurt them.
 
 In stand up just about everything is on the table so i should feel okay poking fun at it.   Kinda like the movie singles ward.  the guy dose a comedy show and mocks the church and it is sooo bad and hurtful to his love.  Ha ha i've been brainwashed!
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Posted: 17 October 2013 02:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
WinstonSmith
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"Have you ever felt the need to protect the church? Why do we feel so bad mocking mormons even in jest? I guess its kinda like they are nice people and we don't want to hurt them."
 
I empathize with your line of thinking... I do not take issue with most TBMs... The fact is there is a lot of good that exists in TSCC; and the credit goes to the members, not to the big 15. I speculate this is the conflict you are feeling.  Every organization has quarks that are odd and a good comedian can poke fun of that in good taste.  The problem is with TBMs is the constaint "us verse them" dogma prevents them from being able to laugh at themselves.
 
Being a 27 year old virgin is nothing to be ashamed, if that is the disire of the person. But I supect that for most, reamaining a virgin for so long is an effect of behavioral and emontional control over the indivicual by an organization.  If it was not for the fear phobia instilled in me by TSCC, my virginity would have been lost to my first college girl friend 'Julie' at age 18.  I never obstained from sex because it was the morally right thing to do, I feared Hell. 


   


Posted: 17 October 2013 02:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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My son is an exmo and a comedian in NYC.
I don't think he brings up his religion in any of the routines I've seen of his.
Drops a lot of F bombs and talks about sex and drugs, which was kind of embarassing when we took some TBM friends of ours to see one of his sets.
I always told him it's a gold mine of material, but he doesn't need it I don't think.
He's got enough material just from living in NYC, having been in a Frat House in college, f'd up relationships and a dysfunctional family.
He loves making fun of capitalist, racist, rich pigs and people love that, especially these days.
Have you heard of Bengt Washburn?
http://www.getbengt.com/
He's an ExMo comic who's killin it.
 
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Posted: 17 October 2013 05:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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protect it from what? if this is "the one true church" then mere mortals cannot harm it. eff the TSCC. they deserve everything they have coming and more. 
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Posted: 17 October 2013 08:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
quietlydifferent
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Feel the need to protect the church? No, I feel no need for that. At the same time I don't enjoy people using misinformation to attack it. The truth should be more than enough to deal with the church. I also don't like the angle of being hurtful before being funny when it comes to comedy. At the same time I don't understand the feeling that using your experiences with the church in your comedy is somehow not okay. I mean people of a lot of religions use it in their acts. Jewish comedians use their experiences with Jewish culture a lot and a lot of them are really good at it and it is often educational. Catholics often use their religion or former religion in their acts and it is okay. Muslims? Yup. It is a part of life. The trick is to make it funny and not just hurtful. Heck, have you ever heard of Latter Night Live? Dvd entirely done by LDS comedians almost exclusively about their experiences in the church. Some of it was good even though it wouldn't make much sense to most people. The bit about how a little kid bears his testimony was spot on. If you don't feel you could be funny about it don't do it but if you think you could be funny go for it. The church is a big multibillion dollar corporation, they can handle a little humor. If not, oh well. 

   


Posted: 18 October 2013 10:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Lead in with.... "So I was brought up in a CULT..... I was raised a Mormon"...LOL
 
"Now I am a 27 year old virgin who loves penisis but have no idea what I am suppose to do with them"...lol 
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Posted: 18 October 2013 12:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
smoozy
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I'm careful what I say around TBM's and some Jack-Mormons. Other's I make fun of Mormons and try to find good Mormon jokes to tell. 

   


Posted: 18 October 2013 08:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
quietlydifferent
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The more I think about it the more I think it would be hard to do good jokes about the church. You would have to explain too much. 

   


            
 
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