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Forum Home  >  Member Forums  >  The Community Forum  >  Thread 
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Famous Dead Mormons…..  
Posted: 04 September 2009 10:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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supercb1
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http://www.famousdeadmormons.com/
 
Sorrry not sure if has been posted before...... saw it on RfM...
 
Pretty funny but in some ways kinda sad........I have told family members that temple work is just busy work and means nothing at all.....
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CB
Do not believe anything because it is said by an authority,or if it is said to come from angels,
or from Gods, or from an inspired source.
Believe it only if you have explored it in your own heart
and mind and body and found it to be true.
Work out your own path, through diligence.
~ Guatama Buddha


   


Posted: 04 September 2009 11:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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supercb1
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Ok just finished reading the posts.....one of the funniest to me is Mark Twain
 
LMAO
 
He said something like he thought the BOM was like chloroform in print?  Bet he is wishing he could have some of that chloroform to survive the mormon heaven...
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CB
Do not believe anything because it is said by an authority,or if it is said to come from angels,
or from Gods, or from an inspired source.
Believe it only if you have explored it in your own heart
and mind and body and found it to be true.
Work out your own path, through diligence.
~ Guatama Buddha


   


Posted: 05 September 2009 01:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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mishelley
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Poor Gregor Mendel, bet he's sorry he screwed around with those peas now... 
 
I just saw Sid  "Nevermind the Bollocks it's the Mormons"  Vicious  
noooooooo!!!
 
They got PT Barnum too.
"There's a sucker born baptized every minute!" 
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“I wouldn’t recommend sex, drugs or insanity for everyone, but they’ve always worked for me.”
—Hunter S. Thompson


   


Posted: 05 September 2009 05:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Mormon trekies submitting Jimmy...who'd a thunk it....
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 05 September 2009 07:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Nom de Cypher
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Ahhh.You guys really get me. Thanks for the encouraging words. I came up with this idea about a year ago, but only got around to building the site when I heard that they had dunked President Obama's mother. (Obamamama for short).Thanks to RfM, the traffic on the site doubled yesterday, and supercb1 brought it here, so today will be another record day.Thanks guys. It makes all that much more fun to do when I know someone is reading it. 

   


Posted: 06 September 2009 06:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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supercb1
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Nom de Cypher:
Ahhh.You guys really get me. Thanks for the encouraging words. I came up with this idea about a year ago, but only got around to building the site when I heard that they had dunked President Obama's mother. (Obamamama for short).Thanks to RfM, the traffic on the site doubled yesterday, and supercb1 brought it here, so today will be another record day.Thanks guys. It makes all that much more fun to do when I know someone is reading it.
 
Very cool!  Nice work.......ya know sometimes the truth will set ya free but first it will piss you off!?!?  When I read your site I feel that way.........
 Signature
CB
Do not believe anything because it is said by an authority,or if it is said to come from angels,
or from Gods, or from an inspired source.
Believe it only if you have explored it in your own heart
and mind and body and found it to be true.
Work out your own path, through diligence.
~ Guatama Buddha


   


            
 
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 Masterbating
by TheThomas
Broad daylight is the best antiseptic
by Strong Free & Thankful
How do I develop a lifestyle out of Mormonism?
by Nephi
The perfect excuse for polyandry
by Tessa
Downtown Bus Robber Takes A Ride To The Floor
by Elder OldDog
Will Utah allow 'married gays' to marry opposite sex in the State also?
by Nephi
Name Finally Removed
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Religious Trauma Syndrome
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President Uchtdorf: Mistakes (#3) by Leaders and Members.
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by Swearing Elder 

  
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OCTOBER CONFERENCE
"Past, Present, and Possibilities"
Oct. 18-20, 2013










 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



Salt Lake Events the week before christmas
[Salt Lake City Po...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (12/1)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
December 1st- Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
We’re still here...
[East Tennessee Po...] 
Utah County CALM meetup for November
[Calm of Utah Coun...] 
Joseph's Changing Myth with Grant Palmer -- Nov 6 -- 7pm -- SLC Library
[Salt Lake City Po...] 
November Meet Up
[Idaho Falls Post-...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (11/3)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
November 3rd- Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture series
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
October Meet-up
[Denver Post-Mormo...] 
October Meeting
[Idaho Falls Post-...] 
San Diego lunch this Sunday @ 1:30
[San Diego Post-Mo...] 


Book of Mormon Tories
by Tom Donofrio 
Book of Mormon Tories
by Nogginus Skepticalus 
Native American DNA
by GTM 
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Reuben

Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Virginia Steve

CALM meet up for June
4bagel

Revised NW Women's Retreat Announcement
lunaverse

Austin Fall Party
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Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
by Timo 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by ExMoNemo 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Mikki B 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Mikki B

Resignation Letter to My Family
Waveoftruth

Resignation Letter to My Family
In search of Truth

Carolina PostMo Night: “The Master
Swearing Elder

Washington D.C. Post-Mormon Lunch - August 28
freckles

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Financial Report for 2011 to Date
by Jeff Ricks 
Resignation Letter to My Family
pennw

Financial Report for 2011 to Date
by Poor Thumper 
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
by Poor Thumper 
Resignation Letter to My Family
Poor Thumper

SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (6/3)
exmoinaz

SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (6/3)
peter_gunz

Earth Day Concert Get Together!
Swearing Elder


            

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Forum Home  >  Member Forums  >  The Community Forum  >  Thread 
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My favorite band is Mormon…  
Posted: 31 August 2009 06:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Kenny
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Actually it's just the lead singer, but I was shocked to find this out!  I hope he finds his way to these forums :)
I guess it makes sense because when I left the church, music was my 'food for the soul', and this band's album resonated with me more than anything.  I'm not sure that people here would like them, I'm 23 and the band, Saosin, is kind of punk rock haha.
But in retrospect, the lyrics hit a lot of themes that only a Mormon would be able to express:
Questioning the church:
"What is my body worth?"
"We walk along but never turn to see what we have done"
"We choose our moves so carefully for you"
"I will not let you go!"
"Why believe in nothing at all"
"There's something greater there"
The truth finally clicks:
"What happened to us all?  Have we slept through it?  Taking hits off the surface It's too hard to swallow when Their judgements are concentrated On everything they know."
A loved one watches you leave, questions your decision:
"I caught you lying to yourself Now everything is spinning 'round and around Well I'm a fool to watch but never say Are you bothered by the choice you made?"
You explain that there's another life out there:
"But maybe we were wrong.. When will you know That you can feel belonged I think you fell in deeper than you imagined."
"It's so simple to be afraid It's so simple when you know who you are"
"When we fall to the ground Slowly we're safe and sound"
Your loved one chooses the church, love doesn't conquer all:
"I miss the part when we were moving forward now On our way down But maybe someday, I'll be something more than love Just know I'll never tell And when you're on your way down..."
Leaving the church is hard, but gets easier over time:
"I have seen so many loving faces They turn back and leave with looks of regret The road goes and I am finding home in it"
Your loved one watches from a distance:
"I saw him fly He's never looked this way I saw in his eyes He's never coming down"
"She's watching me awkwardly from a distance.  Should I care?  Is there something more I should have known?  I know that I wonder."
"Will she go... or follow?  Follow, please follow me home."
You try to explain the truth to your loved one:
"I've been trying to let you know So come close, this is who we are"
"Come on you can be yourself again"
"When you notice yourself As something more than just a reflection You'll see it's not me"
Your loved one rejects the truth:
"I never wanted to hear We are the only ones we are running from"
"I never wanted to hear all the things that you told me"
You find support outside the church:
"'Cause we are the only ones, we will get up And we are aware, 'cause we've been through it"
"We will carry each other on our own"
"Open your eyes and let all the light in Open your eyes up a little more"
The church justifies to itself that you're not truly happy:
"This won't mean anything tonight.  Why write with confidence?  Why try to save them?  We try to not forget It's so much better there.  Did you think you could make it on your own?  It was so much better..."
Anyway, it makes me wonder if the singer is actually former Mormon?  A quick Google search showed that he didn't go on a church mission in favor of pursuing this band.  I think they're awesome either way :)
- Kenny


   


Posted: 31 August 2009 06:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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wesmanlv
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hi kenny, welcome to our site. u r right, i am too old to know who or what you are talking about. however, at one time i did see a posting here where many of the famous ex mormons were listed. maybe your favorite will make that list soon.
 
 
here is a  link to that thread:
 
 
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/15485/
 
 
 
 cheers
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Posted: 31 August 2009 06:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Kris Fielding
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They sound a little like a lot of bands. AFI maybe? It kind of blends in with a lot that's out right now. Not bad though
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Once you convince yourself The universe falls into place. You’ve got your ideas And your posse of friends. You all make up rules
And the fun never ends. But still there’s a problem that leaves you gasping for air. You look for some meaning, blank smiles are all that’s there. And still water stales a soft summer breeze. You cling to your hopes while your drop to your knees.
There’s no substance.
-Bad Religion, No Substance
Formerly “Doubting Thomas”


   


Posted: 31 August 2009 07:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Kenny
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@wesmanlv Thanks for the link! When I was first investigating the church I remember seeing the websites dedicated to Mormon celebrities. It's AWESOME to see names from those sites in a post-Mormon list now!
 
@Doubting Thomas HAHA I like AFI too though their new single isn't doing anything for me. Saosin has a new album coming out in eight days so I'm very excited - who knows, the lyrics might have a post-Mormon edge to them, I'm convinced Cove Reber isn't REALLY Mormon


   


Posted: 31 August 2009 01:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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MishMagnet
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I will have to check out that band.  I love The Killers and Brandon Flowers is still Mormon.  I hear a lot of my own angst in his lyrics and vocals and am just waiting to see him here on the other side.
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I don’t want to ruin the ending for you ...... but it’s all going to be okay.


   


Posted: 31 August 2009 02:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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gingerbreadapron
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Wow MishMagnet, I didn't know that.  I love The Killers.  I just looked it up and you're right, I had no idea. He lived in Nephi, UT for a long time, poor kid.  Really talented. 

   


Posted: 31 August 2009 03:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Kenny
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@MishMagnet The Killers are great too!  I can absolutely respect a band that has clean lyrics but like you said, it's the angst that bothers me - I can relate to it, and I think these folks could be happier / find the answers they're looking for outside of the church!
 
For anyone who's curious what my favorite band, Saosin, sounds like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3QXdDL6TG8
 
This is one of their new singles from the album "In Search of Solid Ground", and again, if you listen to the lyrics the themes are very Mormon.  He's asking is this real, do I have to buy into this lifestyle, how do I endure to the end, how do I know that's the right decision?  Ultimately it really sounds like he would rather have his agency and be held accountable for his choice to live his own life.
 
Saosin - Is This Real
 
Time's running out and I haven't been saved.
Gotta cast my stone into the lake
(It didn't work, It didn't feel that sacred)
That's all it takes my son, then you are safe.
When the end comes, everything's OK
(Can't take it back, can't take it away)
Take my skin, we're diving in
It doesn't make a difference if I sink or swim
There's a line drawn thin, or so they tell me.
I'll never know the difference if we sink or swim.
 
Is it real?
These choices that we make? (Is it real?)
These smiles that we fake? (Is it real?)
I know it hurts but is it real? (Is it real?)
These choices that we make, (Is it real?)
These smiles that we fake?
For my own sake, I know it hurts but,
Is it?
 
I can't help feeling like I've been betrayed
You should have cast that stone into the lake.
Chased in the wrong direction, led astray.
And I know you don't believe a single word you say
 
(I don't believe that you can)
Take my skin, we're diving in
It doesn't make a difference if I sink or swim
There's a line drawn thin, or so they tell me.
I'll never know the difference if we sink or swim.
 
Is it real?
These choices that we make? (Is it real?)
These smiles that we fake? (Is it real?)

I know it hurts but is it real? (Is it real?)
These choices that we make, (Is it real?)

These smiles that we fake?
For my own sake, I know it hurts but,
Is this real?
Is this real?
 
I don't want to buy into the life,
Stare up at the sky,
But is it real?
Show me something real
I don't want to buy into your lies
Stare up at the sky and say,
I'll surrender myself for this
I'll take the blame (I'll take the blame)
I'll surrender myself for this, I'll take the blame
 
For peace, for war
For rich, or poor
For loss, for gain, for everything
That I love, I see, I feel,
I'll become one with what's not real to me
So I'm staring sideways, forward, backwards
Just to realize we all fall down
 
Is it real?
These choices that we make? (Is it real?)
These trials that we fake? (Is it real?)
Just tell me is this (Real)
 
These choices that we make, (Is it real?)

These smiles that we fake?
For my own sake, I know it hurts but,
Is this real?
Is this real? (Is it real?)
 
I need to know
Is this real?


   


            
 
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 Masterbating
by TheThomas
Broad daylight is the best antiseptic
by Strong Free & Thankful
How do I develop a lifestyle out of Mormonism?
by Nephi
The perfect excuse for polyandry
by Tessa
Downtown Bus Robber Takes A Ride To The Floor
by Elder OldDog
Will Utah allow 'married gays' to marry opposite sex in the State also?
by Nephi
Name Finally Removed
by Matter Unorganized
Religious Trauma Syndrome
by josephs myth
INTRODUCE YOURSELVES - TAG YOU'RE IT!
by haylee
President Uchtdorf: Mistakes (#3) by Leaders and Members.
by josephs myth
I'm returning and reporting after being off this site for a while.
by Kori
Don't hold your breath waiting for LDS Inc to apologize for its obvious racism.
by Celestial Wedgie
Was Michael Jackson Mormon????
by Dogzilla Joy
Three questions or more
by Mountainhippie
Advice for getting someone to leave Mormonism
by how is this my life
Race and the Priesthood: Back to the Future edition
by Tessa
Temple Recommend Question Answered for LDS Church
by Tessa
Duck Dynasty
by Tessa
New Essay = Polygamy
by Swearing Elder
Yet Another Apostate & TBM Divorce
by Swearing Elder 

  
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/17436/




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OCTOBER CONFERENCE
"Past, Present, and Possibilities"
Oct. 18-20, 2013










 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



Salt Lake Events the week before christmas
[Salt Lake City Po...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (12/1)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
December 1st- Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
We’re still here...
[East Tennessee Po...] 
Utah County CALM meetup for November
[Calm of Utah Coun...] 
Joseph's Changing Myth with Grant Palmer -- Nov 6 -- 7pm -- SLC Library
[Salt Lake City Po...] 
November Meet Up
[Idaho Falls Post-...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (11/3)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
November 3rd- Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture series
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
October Meet-up
[Denver Post-Mormo...] 
October Meeting
[Idaho Falls Post-...] 
San Diego lunch this Sunday @ 1:30
[San Diego Post-Mo...] 


Book of Mormon Tories
by Tom Donofrio 
Book of Mormon Tories
by Nogginus Skepticalus 
Native American DNA
by GTM 
Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Reuben

Ongoing Monthly Gatherings!
Virginia Steve

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Oh, Really? Does a Mormon Celebrity’s opinion/actions sway the Mormon “policy”?  
Posted: 06 May 2009 01:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Troubled Wife
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Not to hijack Tab's thread, I decided to start it this over here....
 
Mustard seed said:
Yay!
I am hoping this will trigger the herd mentality of church members when it comes to celebrity Mo's.
(Think about how quickly sports on Sunday became a minor infraction instead of a major faux pas after Steve Young it the big time)
 
 
That got me thinking.
I was on swim team as a young teen, and well, in our branch/ward of 12 youth (YMYW) 4 of us were on the same swim team (not school, but AAA). Anywhoo. There were twice a month Sunday meets. Our first "bishop" told us that we could not go, because it was breaking the Sabbath. That didn't stop us, or our folks. We went anyway (two of us were well on our way to State).
 
It caused quite a stir in our little branch/ward. (I later found out it caused quite the stir in the stake too) So much so, that one of the young ladies, who was a convert despite her folks, decided it was too much control and left the church over it.
Our next bishop saw it as a Missionary opportunity, and encouraged us to go, and not only that, but he made the arrangements to have a sacrament service for us at our meets. Boy, were we surprised. Those sacrament services were always performed in a room somewhere off from the main pool area, with local priesthood presiding, and pulled more people in than our whole branch/ward back home. That went on for a year. It was more surprising to us swimmers to find so many more "mormons" who were competing.
 
But, then some big wig in SLC found out about our Competition Sacrament Meeting and all heck broke loose. Some heads rolled, and well, though we were not directly asked to stop our Sunday competitions, there was some heavy handed pressure to try to get us to stop.
 
 
I later wondered how BYU got away with playing football on Sundays if we weren't supposed to be attending or participating in Sunday competitions! I was then told that it was a missionary experience. WTF?  How come SL would say that the "Y" playing on Sunday was "missionary" yet the common MoJoe wasn't supposed to be competing? (And how could common MoJoe get to the Y if he hadn't competed on Sunday in the first place?)
 
 
I've also seen where a celebrity says something, and the church has come down hard against it (can't place my finger on anything right now... but I do remember when Steve Young said he didn't wear garments during the games, our stake had a special combined PH/RS meeting about when and where we were to wear our garments).
So, when MS said what he did, it made me stop and think. 
 
What do Y'all think on this issue? Is the church really swayed by one very prominant person doing something that is against doctrine/policy?
 
I also remember when Marie Osmond was still single (before she married the first time) it was rumored that her Mormon Membership Status was in question, but that was "behind the scenes", because of the people she dated (Andy Gibb, John Schnider...). So, I really don't think her standing up to the church and supporting her daughter is going to make a hill of beans to most TBMs, but may earn her another "court" with the Mucky-mucks.
Though, it does make my heart swell to know that someone as prmoninant as Marie can make that stand, and show that for her, it is Family First.
 
 
ETA: It has been pointed out that College football isn't played on Sunday, so it makes me wonder who it was that played football on Sundays around 1976 - 79  that caused me to think that the "Y" was playing... Hmmmm...football jocks? (Famous Mormons in Sports... Danny White rings a bell) And fyi, according to WIKI (if you trust them at all) the basket ball team did have to confront being scheduled for a Sunday game in 2003.
 
Doing more research, BYU does have some major issues with sports activities/ competitions on Sundays. If I were good in a particular sport, I would not be going to the "Y" for my sporting career! Not that I would go to the Y for anything else either.
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Posted: 06 May 2009 02:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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When you are a celebrity like Marie and have been for so many years, I imagine you are introduced to so many different lifestyles and people and ideas that I just can't see how any Mormon would be able to stay TBM through all of it.  My personal opinion is that Marie and any other LDS famous people probably over time become more liberal and open minded members.
 
Before I really discovered the church is a fraud, I was a pretty liberal mormon for many years.  I believed the Church was true yet I also thought it was crazy to be anti-gay, I support womens rights like abortion, etc.  During that period in my life I was a believing member but also liberal and didn't let the Church control my life.  I imagine that maybe this is where Marie is.
 
From what I can tell most TBM mormons don't give a hoot what any famous LDS person says, unless it's the Prophet etc.  They seem to think that all famous LDS people are not TBM enough and are slackers.  I personally don't think that what Marie says will affect any TBMs.
 
However, I'm hoping that maybe what she says will affect the many members who are already a little more liberal.  Maybe she will effect enough of these less-TBM members to make a difference.  Who knows.  Somehow I doubt it, but who knows.
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Posted: 06 May 2009 02:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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You won't hear any more of that risque schtick outta her!  Community... Family... Church... You all know the routine.
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Posted: 06 May 2009 03:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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geogdeb
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Ya know I could see this going both ways.  It is such a hot issue that TSCC might take Marie to task for her comments.  However, they have been known to leave celeberties alone to avoid press or, in my opinion, to keep their large chunk of tithes and offerings coming in.  For example: Anne Perry.  She is a famous murder mystery writer who just happened to help her friend brutally kill her mother when she was a teenager (New Zealand).  She later joined the church.  I was going to start a thread to ask what her status might be since TSCC supposedly says murder is the unforgivable sin.  Her idenity was hidden through a name change for decades, but is known now and the church stands behind her.  There was even a movie made about the murder  - "Heavenly Creatures" - and she was suspected of having a homosexual relationship with the friend.   For anyone interested, here is the wikipedia link about her and the murder Anne Perry. 

   


Posted: 06 May 2009 04:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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My Turn
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Troubled Wife:
Not to hijack Tab's thread, I decided to start it this over here....

Mustard seed said:
Yay!
I am hoping this will trigger the herd mentality of church members when it comes to celebrity Mo's.
(Think about how quickly sports on Sunday became a minor infraction instead of a major faux pas after Steve Young it the big time)


That got me thinking.
I was on swim team as a young teen, and well, in our branch/ward of 12 youth (YMYW) 4 of us were on the same swim team (not school, but AAA). Anywhoo. There were twice a month Sunday meets. Our first "bishop" told us that we could not go, because it was breaking the Sabbath. That didn't stop us, or our folks. We went anyway (two of us were well on our way to State).

It caused quite a stir in our little branch/ward. (I later found out it caused quite the stir in the stake too) So much so, that one of the young ladies, who was a convert despite her folks, decided it was too much control and left the church over it.
Our next bishop saw it as a Missionary opportunity, and encouraged us to go, and not only that, but he made the arrangements to have a sacrament service for us at our meets. Boy, were we surprised. Those sacrament services were always performed in a room somewhere off from the main pool area, with local priesthood presiding, and pulled more people in than our whole branch/ward back home. That went on for a year. It was more surprising to us swimmers to find so many more "mormons" who were competing.

But, then some big wig in SLC found out about our Competition Sacrament Meeting and all heck broke loose. Some heads rolled, and well, though we were not directly asked to stop our Sunday competitions, there was some heavy handed pressure to try to get us to stop.


I later wondered how BYU got away with playing football on Sundays if we weren't supposed to be attending or participating in Sunday competitions! I was then told that it was a missionary experience. WTF?  How come SL would say that the "Y" playing on Sunday was "missionary" yet the common MoJoe wasn't supposed to be competing? (And how could common MoJoe get to the Y if he hadn't competed on Sunday in the first place?)


I've also seen where a celebrity says something, and the church has come down hard against it (can't place my finger on anything right now... but I do remember when Steve Young said he didn't wear garments during the games, our stake had a special combined PH/RS meeting about when and where we were to wear our garments).
So, when MS said what he did, it made me stop and think. 

What do Y'all think on this issue? Is the church really swayed by one very prominant person doing something that is against doctrine/policy?

I also remember when Marie Osmond was still single (before she married the first time) it was rumored that her Mormon Membership Status was in question, but that was "behind the scenes", because of the people she dated (Andy Gibb, John Schnider...). So, I really don't think her standing up to the church and supporting her daughter is going to make a hill of beans to most TBMs, but may earn her another "court" with the Mucky-mucks.
Though, it does make my heart swell to know that someone as prmoninant as Marie can make that stand, and show that for her, it is Family First.


ETA: It has been pointed out that College football isn't played on Sunday, so it makes me wonder who it was that played football on Sundays around 1976 - 79  that caused me to think that the "Y" was playing... Hmmmm...football jocks? (Famous Mormons in Sports... Danny White rings a bell) And fyi, according to WIKI (if you trust them at all) the basket ball team did have to confront being scheduled for a Sunday game in 2003.

Doing more research, BYU does have some major issues with sports activities/ competitions on Sundays. If I were good in a particular sport, I would not be going to the "Y" for my sporting career! Not that I would go to the Y for anything else either.
I am not sure, but I believe there was alot of basketball played by Danny
Ainge on Sundays.

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Posted: 06 May 2009 04:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Dogzilla Joy
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geogdeb:
Ya know I could see this going both ways.  It is such a hot issue that TSCC might take Marie to task for her comments.  However, they have been known to leave celeberties alone to avoid press or, in my opinion, to keep their large chunk of tithes and offerings coming in.  For example: Anne Perry.  She is a famous murder mystery writer who just happened to help her friend brutally kill her mother when she was a teenager (New Zealand).  She later joined the church.  I was going to start a thread to ask what her status might be since TSCC supposedly says murder is the unforgivable sin.  Her idenity was hidden through a name change for decades, but is known now and the church stands behind her.  There was even a movie made about the murder  - "Heavenly Creatures" - and she was suspected of having a homosexual relationship with the friend.   For anyone interested, here is the wikipedia link about her and the murder Anne Perry.
 
 I saw that movie. It was deeply disturbing.
 
It starred Kate Winslet and was directed by Peter Jackson (Lord of the Rings, King Kong), who is also a Kiwi. 
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Posted: 06 May 2009 04:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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The church isn't worried about Marie's effect on current membership....they're probably having coronaries about her effect on possible new members...missionary fodder. She and Donny both are more popular outside the US than they are inside it.
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Posted: 06 May 2009 05:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Troubled Wife
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dogzilla:
geogdeb:
Ya know I could see this going both ways.  It is such a hot issue that TSCC might take Marie to task for her comments.  However, they have been known to leave celeberties alone to avoid press or, in my opinion, to keep their large chunk of tithes and offerings coming in.  For example: Anne Perry.  She is a famous murder mystery writer who just happened to help her friend brutally kill her mother when she was a teenager (New Zealand).  She later joined the church.  I was going to start a thread to ask what her status might be since TSCC supposedly says murder is the unforgivable sin.  Her idenity was hidden through a name change for decades, but is known now and the church stands behind her.  There was even a movie made about the murder  - "Heavenly Creatures" - and she was suspected of having a homosexual relationship with the friend.   For anyone interested, here is the wikipedia link about her and the murder Anne Perry.
 
 I saw that movie. It was deeply disturbing.
 
It starred Kate Winslet and was directed by Peter Jackson (Lord of the Rings, King Kong), who is also a Kiwi. 
 
Holy Molies... I didn't realize she was Mormon... I've read a couple of her books, didn't pick them up at Deseret Book...
Never saw the referred to movie, but man... I don't know how an one could live with themselves after a horrific murder like that. Too many nightmares for me after hitting a kitty that ran out in front of me, and later of accidentally killing a kitten because I followed the vet's instructions for flea dip (it was an overdose)....
 
 
And I can't even tell you the horrors I felt when a child walked in front of me as I was pulling from a curb (she'd done it 2 times before to other drivers)... she wasn't hurt, and the police didn't cite me... but I went to the doctor for medications and had to go through some therapy before I could drive again. (HINT: NEVER, EVER take your eyes off a young pedestrian)
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Posted: 06 May 2009 05:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Wow! A whole thread based on one of my ill-thought out off hand middle-of-the-night comments? Cool!
 
I don't think that there is literally that much power in the hands of celebrity Mo's, but I don think that just like any celebrity opinion, when folks who identify with that celebrity hear a point of view that differs from their own coming from them it does have a little impact.
 
For example, during prop h8 I was emailing all of my TBM family links to the mormons for marriage site, and they were all like "Oh that doesn't matter". But when I emailed them the news story about how Steve Young's wife had covered their house with signs supporting gay peoples right to marry they were like "oh really"? Of course it took them two seconds to make an excuse to themselves and say, "Oh that's just because she has a gay brother".
 
Anywhoo it was more a wishful thinking than based in any real strong view of how the MoOrg can be influenced by celebrity opinions.
 
I am flattered that my comment made a stir though. lol
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Posted: 06 May 2009 05:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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I don't think that there is literally that much power in the hands of celebrity Mo's
Tell that to the thousands of "fans" of the Donny and Marie show, who joined the church because of their popularity (and Donny's purple socks.)
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 06 May 2009 06:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Troubled Wife
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mustard seed:
Wow! A whole thread based on one of my ill-thought out off hand middle-of-the-night comments? Cool!
 
I don't think that there is literally that much power in the hands of celebrity Mo's, but I don think that just like any celebrity opinion, when folks who identify with that celebrity hear a point of view that differs from their own coming from them it does have a little impact.
 
For example, during prop h8 I was emailing all of my TBM family links to the mormons for marriage site, and they were all like "Oh that doesn't matter". But when I emailed them the news story about how Steve Young's wife had covered their house with signs supporting gay peoples right to marry they were like "oh really"? Of course it took them two seconds to make an excuse to themselves and say, "Oh that's just because she has a gay brother".
 
Anywhoo it was more a wishful thinking than based in any real strong view of how the MoOrg can be influenced by celebrity opinions.
 
I am flattered that my comment made a stir though. lol
 
   Well, what can I say?
Sometimes, someone writes something that causes you to stop and think. And, your comment did make me stop and think. 
How long ago was it that I've seen church policy change to be less controling, and was it due to Celebrity Status, or has policy only become more controling? IE: # of peircings people can have, no flip flops at church, no denim skirts, ......
Honestly, I don't see the current hierarchy budging much, but becoming more vocal about their stances on "hot political" issues - like gay marriage, until such time that it becomes politically prudent to change "policy" (or as we know it, doctrine).
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Posted: 06 May 2009 07:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Dogzilla Joy
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Troubled Wife:
dogzilla:
geogdeb:
There was even a movie made about the murder  - "Heavenly Creatures" - and she was suspected of having a homosexual relationship with the friend.   For anyone interested, here is the wikipedia link about her and the murder Anne Perry.
 
 I saw that movie. It was deeply disturbing.
 
It starred Kate Winslet and was directed by Peter Jackson (Lord of the Rings, King Kong), who is also a Kiwi. 
 
Holy Molies... I didn't realize she was Mormon... I've read a couple of her books, didn't pick them up at Deseret Book...
Never saw the referred to movie, but man... I don't know how an one could live with themselves after a horrific murder like that.

 Yeah, I hear ya sister. Two things:
 
1. Based on the rest of your post that I snipped out: AVOID THAT MOVIE AT ALL COSTS. It's very much exemplary of Peter Jackson's early work, and I have to tell you... he is a very sick and twisted puppy. I wanted to bleach my brain of the memories of that flick.
 
2. How Anne Perry lives with herself after that horrific crime? She was baptised into the the COJCOLDS. All her previous sins were washed away in the baptismal font and her conscience is now as clean as the pure driven snow.
 
Okay, TW, skip past this next bit; it's for everyone else.... (I've changed the text color to white. Highlight the white space in this post for a description of the brutality involved in the crime. Can baptism really wash away a sin like this? Seriously?)
 ________________________________________________________________________
So Anne Perry and her teen girlfriend killed the friend's mom with half a brick wrapped in some fabric. They thought they could bash her in the head just once and that would work. But it didn't... So they proceeded to beat her again and again with that brick, 45 times. But I'm sure she's repented by now. 
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Steve Young Leaving Mormonism?  
Posted: 21 November 2008 08:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Lilith
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Is this true or is this a spoof site and I am just behind on spoof site info?
 
http://sportsbybrooks.com/qb-young-breaks-with-mormons-on-gay-marriage-20709
 
QB Young Breaks With Mormons On Gay Marriage
<!-- foobar -->
Forget Obama vs. McCain. The real battle Tuesday is between Jeff Kent and Steve Young (and, I guess, the thousands of people who would be affected by Proposition 8). The former 49ers quarterback is speaking out against and giving money to defeat the controversial measure that would ban gay marriage in California. Making it even more interesting, he is breaking with the Mormon Church on the issue.
Steve Young
Young is a direct descendant of Brigham Young (I guess technically making him a legacy at BYU) and a very visible member of the LDS church, even starring in Myths & Reality, an informational video on the church. (I could totally embed it, but I wouldn’t ask you to watch a 10-minute video on the Mormons. It’s here, if you really want.) So it’s all the more impressive that he’s willing to go against its official stance for something he believes in. Giordano Bruno was executed for less than that.

Young and his wife Barb have put signs reading “No On Prop 8″ on their lawn, and given $37,000 (which more than cancels out Jeff Kent’s $15,000) to help defeat the amendment.
While it’s Barb Young’s name that appears on the checks, she made it clear in a statement issued today through Equality California that the contributions are a family affair.
“We believe ALL families matter and we do not believe in discrimination, therefore, our family will vote against Prop. 8,” she said.
Compare that with a letter the church sent to all members in June, which read, in part:
We ask that you do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time to assure that marriage in California is legally defined as being between a man and a woman.
I could make a bad joke about a faith that used to allow plural marriage being against gay marriage. I could even make a pretty good joke about Terrell Owens saying that Jeff Garcia is the 49ers QB who should be up in arms. But Prop 8 really isn’t a laughing matter. We try to stay away from politics at SbB but I can’t say enough good things about Steve Young for taking a stand. Californian readers, I know you won’t have much of a say in the Presidential Election, but it’s still very important you vote on Tuesday.
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“You might want to tell the truth. It’s easier to remember.” - Cho ~ The Mentalist..
A Mormon?! But I’m from Earth! - Homer Simpson..
I’m sorry, but if I agreed with you, we’d both be wrong! As it is I refuse to have a ‘Battle Of Wits’ with an unarmed person!


   


Posted: 21 November 2008 08:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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teetering
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I think Steve made a subsequent public statement where he stated he didn't have an official opinion on political issues.  A lot of TBMs saw it as him throwing his wife under a bus, and predicted that it would harm their marriage.


   


Posted: 21 November 2008 09:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Lilith
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Ok I see it is dated Nov 1st now and I guess I read "breaking with Mormons" a little differently, aka as in "leaving" them. Whoops. Though it certainly would be nice to find out they were leaving the Mormon Church over this.
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“You might want to tell the truth. It’s easier to remember.” - Cho ~ The Mentalist..
A Mormon?! But I’m from Earth! - Homer Simpson..
I’m sorry, but if I agreed with you, we’d both be wrong! As it is I refuse to have a ‘Battle Of Wits’ with an unarmed person!


   


Posted: 07 February 2009 05:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
sciencezgood
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teetering:
I think Steve made a subsequent public statement where he stated he didn't have an official opinion on political issues.  A lot of TBMs saw it as him throwing his wife under a bus, and predicted that it would harm their marriage.
 
I'm sure they don't talk about it too much in their marriage. That's probably the secret there. If Steve were to speak against Prop 8, wouldn't that mean that he wouldn't be able to go back into the temple and lose his good standing?


   


Posted: 08 February 2009 05:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Daniel2
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sciencezgood:
teetering:
I think Steve made a subsequent public statement where he stated he didn't have an official opinion on political issues.  A lot of TBMs saw it as him throwing his wife under a bus, and predicted that it would harm their marriage.
 
I'm sure they don't talk about it too much in their marriage. That's probably the secret there. If Steve were to speak against Prop 8, wouldn't that mean that he wouldn't be able to go back into the temple and lose his good standing?
 
Steve and Barb Young talk quite a bit about things, in their marriage.  I know several of the Youngs, and had the opportunity and priviledge of spending some time sharing my story with both Barb and Steve in the months leading up to last November's vote.  Both Barb and Steve are gracious, kind, compassionate, and thoughtful.  Neither shied away from discussion the controversial aspects of marriage equality.  Barb's brother is gay, which gives their family a personal connectiont to the issue.
 
My obersation is that they are pretty open and honest with each other.  I don't think most Mormons were prepared for the complications that Prop 8 brought to the LDS church.  When Barb spoke out publically, it brought a very public limelight directly on Steve that I don't think he felt inclined to answer to.  His response to his wife's statements never were a retraction from what he said, merely that he did intend  to be a public spokesperson for any political cause.  I can't and don't blame the Youngs for struggling through a challenging and unfortunate situation.  While many of us, here, might have found that Mormonism didn't work, even to the point of varying degrees of harm, many in the church love it and find great value and meaning in their lives.  I appreciate the Youngs for their willingness to push the boundaries as far as they feel comfortable doing, and don't hold anything against them if they aren't as confrontational or public as others may choose to be.
 
My view,
Darin
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Do not be too moral.  You may cheat yourself out of too much life.
Aim high above morality.  Be not simply good; be good for something.
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Posted: 08 February 2009 06:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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My Turn
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darin:
sciencezgood:
teetering:
I think Steve made a subsequent public statement where he stated he didn't have an official opinion on political issues.  A lot of TBMs saw it as him throwing his wife under a bus, and predicted that it would harm their marriage.

I'm sure they don't talk about it too much in their marriage. That's probably the secret there. If Steve were to speak against Prop 8, wouldn't that mean that he wouldn't be able to go back into the temple and lose his good standing?

Steve and Barb Young talk quite a bit about things, in their marriage.  I know several of the Youngs, and had the opportunity and priviledge of spending some time sharing my story with both Barb and Steve in the months leading up to last November's vote.  Both Barb and Steve are gracious, kind, compassionate, and thoughtful.  Neither shied away from discussion the controversial aspects of marriage equality.  Barb's brother is gay, which gives their family a personal connectiont to the issue.

My obersation is that they are pretty open and honest with each other.  I don't think most Mormons were prepared for the complications that Prop 8 brought to the LDS church.  When Barb spoke out publically, it brought a very public limelight directly on Steve that I don't think he felt inclined to answer to.  His response to his wife's statements never were a retraction from what he said, merely that he did intend  to be a public spokesperson for any political cause.  I can't and don't blame the Youngs for struggling through a challenging and unfortunate situation.  While many of us, here, might have found that Mormonism didn't work, even to the point of varying degrees of harm, many in the church love it and find great value and meaning in their lives.  I appreciate the Youngs for their willingness to push the boundaries as far as they feel comfortable doing, and don't hold anything against them if they aren't as confrontational or public as others may choose to be.

My view,
Darin
Thanks for this wonderful insight to the Youngs.  I am to quick to judge things
on the surface and I needed to hear this.  Thank you Darin. 

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No, I am not LDS.


   


Posted: 09 February 2009 12:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
sciencezgood
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darin:
sciencezgood:
teetering:
I think Steve made a subsequent public statement where he stated he didn't have an official opinion on political issues.  A lot of TBMs saw it as him throwing his wife under a bus, and predicted that it would harm their marriage.
 
I'm sure they don't talk about it too much in their marriage. That's probably the secret there. If Steve were to speak against Prop 8, wouldn't that mean that he wouldn't be able to go back into the temple and lose his good standing?
 
Steve and Barb Young talk quite a bit about things, in their marriage.  I know several of the Youngs, and had the opportunity and priviledge of spending some time sharing my story with both Barb and Steve in the months leading up to last November's vote.  Both Barb and Steve are gracious, kind, compassionate, and thoughtful.  Neither shied away from discussion the controversial aspects of marriage equality.  Barb's brother is gay, which gives their family a personal connectiont to the issue.
 
My obersation is that they are pretty open and honest with each other.  I don't think most Mormons were prepared for the complications that Prop 8 brought to the LDS church.  When Barb spoke out publically, it brought a very public limelight directly on Steve that I don't think he felt inclined to answer to.  His response to his wife's statements never were a retraction from what he said, merely that he did intend  to be a public spokesperson for any political cause.  I can't and don't blame the Youngs for struggling through a challenging and unfortunate situation.  While many of us, here, might have found that Mormonism didn't work, even to the point of varying degrees of harm, many in the church love it and find great value and meaning in their lives.  I appreciate the Youngs for their willingness to push the boundaries as far as they feel comfortable doing, and don't hold anything against them if they aren't as confrontational or public as others may choose to be.
 
My view,
Darin
I can understand your point of view Darin. I don't personally know the inner workings of their relationship, nor should I care. I just thought it was interesting that Mrs. Young put such blatantly anti Prop 8 (and thus anti LDS leadership on the that issue, right?) decor in her front yard. Then Mr. Young diffuses the story by saying something like "My wife has very strong emotions on this issue (implying that his emotions are not strong)." To some women, that might be considered 'not standing up for your wife'.
 
The fact that most Mormons weren't prepared for the complications that Prop 8 brought to the LDS church does not let anyone off the hook. If those that are in the LDS church that are against prop 8 are speaking up for the injustice in sacrament meetings, then fine. But if people who speak up are ostracized  or excommunicated for being against leadership....  it's a damn cult and it should be stopped.
 


   


Posted: 09 February 2009 03:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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sciencezgood:

I can understand your point of view Darin. I don't personally know the inner workings of their relationship, nor should I care. I just thought it was interesting that Mrs. Young put such blatantly anti Prop 8 (and thus anti LDS leadership on the that issue, right?) decor in her front yard. Then Mr. Young diffuses the story by saying something like "My wife has very strong emotions on this issue (implying that his emotions are not strong)." To some women, that might be considered 'not standing up for your wife'.
 
The fact that most Mormons weren't prepared for the complications that Prop 8 brought to the LDS church does not let anyone off the hook. If those that are in the LDS church that are against prop 8 are speaking up for the injustice in sacrament meetings, then fine. But if people who speak up are ostracized  or excommunicated for being against leadership....  it's a damn cult and it should be stopped.
 
 
I can appreciate that many would feel unsupported if their spouse released the kind of statement that Steve did, following Barb's reported views.  I think it's worth emphasizing your point that none of us personally understand the inner workings of their relationship--even myself. 
 
What I did observe is that they are loving and supportive of each other, when they are together.  As the three of us openly discussed my being gay, the encouragement I recieved while attending BYU from two bishops and an LDS therapist "to marry a good woman, and all these feelings will go away," and my ensuing failed temple marriage, both Steve and Barb were respectful, horrified, and determined to help prevent such sham marriages in the future.
 
Barb is clearly the more passionate of the two, because her own brother is gay.  Steve doesn't have that direct family connection, save through marriage.  Barb has been dealing with it for a much longer time, and on a much closer level, than Steve has.  That he is so open about it is commendable, IMO (even his "clarifying statement" did not SUPPORT Mormon leadership--it was mostly an attempt to stay out of the crossfire and avoid punishment from the church).
 
Having spent the brief but significant time with the Youngs, as I did, I would be very, very surprised if Steve and Barb did NOT discuss the decision for him to respond to some of the high profile press his wife's statements received, prior to him doing so.  It seems clear that his words were carefully planned and chosen, so as not to publically "come out" against church leadership, but also not to show his support for them, either.  Similiarly, I don't think he ever contradicted his wife.
 
Saying "my wife has strong feelings on the subject" doesn't demonstrate that he doesn't---if anything, it publically obfuscates his views.  Your assumption (that he doesn't share such strong views) seems likely the very reaction he was hoping that active Mormons and his church leaders might have--so as to avoid church discipline.  Deftly, he did so, without actually contracting his wife, or "selling her under the bus."  And, as I've said, from what I witnessed within their relationship, I doubt he did so without her prior knowledge and discussing the issue with her prior to commenting to the press about it.
 
Even the assumption that it was Barb, not also Steve, who "put up the 'No on Prop 8'" signs in their yards is an assumption.  And, again... I think that kind of obfuscation is the type of aversion of the subject they were looking for, when it came to avoiding blatently, publically going against church leadership.
 
As a gay man with a Mormon background that served a mission, graduated from BYU, married in the SL temple, and tried very, very hard to be straight (and was ultimately unsuccessful, in those attempts), I felt morally outraged, betrayed and angry about the church's very public stance against civil rights (even as I recognize their legal right to engage in the political process, so long as they do not support any specific candidate).  My saying that I believe most church members (as well as the leadership) were unprepared for the PR nightmare Prop 8 became for them is not intended as a sign for my desire "to let anyone off the hook."  But calling into question the Young's personal beliefs--when they were some of the more high-profile Mormons who OPPOSED Prop 8--is counterproductive to the cause of equal civil rights for those of us who are LGBT.  Whether it was Barb, Steve, or both, that put the signs in their yard, the fact that such signs were even displayed (not to mention that they remained) in front of their home is significant. 
 
The fact that Steve did not contradict the signs--or his wife--by publically supporting church leadership in his clarifying statement is significant.  The Youngs are LGBT allies, while trying to remain allies of the church.  I can understand and appreciate their struggle to do so, without feeling the need to claim they must be "with me, or against me" in this fight.  I can allow them to love and appreciate the church, and want to keep their membership--even if I don't personally want or value the church in the same way.  If I ask others to respect my position (even when they don't share mine), I feel it is important that I respect theirs (even when I don't share theirs), as long as their view doesn't legally force me to abide by their own--which, in this case, the Youngs' stance did not, even when their church's asked them to.  In this case, the church (and those members that supported it) is to be condemned--not those more liberal-minded Mormons who break with church leadership (either publically, or privately) and vote their conscience.
 
I also agree that Mormonism can accurately be considered "a cult," due to many of the ways it seeks to control and limit it's members.  However, I am uncomfortable with your statement that "if it ostracizes or excommunicates members," then it "should be stopped."  As much as I agree that ostracizing others, excommunicating them, or behaving in "cultish" manners is unethical and immoral... I don't believe any religion is "breaking the law," by ostracizing or excommunicating members who don't live up to it's personal standards.  If, by saying "it should be stopped," you mean legal control or coersion of a church on how to regulate it's own membership--then I disagree.  If, by saying "it should be stopped," you mean that members and/or non-members should proactively work to discourage such harsh and potentially insensative/emotionally-harmful tools, I have no problem with that.  In fact, that kind of proactive work to get the church to change its policies could be a form of "ostracizing," in-and-of-itself.
 
Sorry about the long-winded post... I haven't yet mastered the virtue of brevity (though I keep trying!).
 
My views,
Darin
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Do not be too moral.  You may cheat yourself out of too much life.
Aim high above morality.  Be not simply good; be good for something.
—Henry David Thoreau


   


Posted: 09 February 2009 04:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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darin:
Sorry about the long-winded post... I haven't yet mastered the virtue of brevity (though I keep trying!).
Hey!  Me neither!
 
::waives to Darin::
 
Good to see you 'round these parts!
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Posted: 09 February 2009 04:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Daniel2
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By the way, the following article is worth reading (click on the link to see the video, if your computer supports watching videos--unlike mine, at work.  It's worth hearing Steve's voice, which is CLEARLY reading the statement, so as to very carefully choose his words.  Although he expresses love, support, and even that he "sustains" his church's leaders, he is careful not to say that he will vote for Prop 8, rather than say something along the lines of "I/we believe 'marriage' is between a man and a woman," like many other high-profile Mormons--such as Donny Osmand--did).  Note that Steve declined to answer further questions, as well... another obvious indicator that he carefully chose his words, and didn't want to get caught saying or contradicting anything that he hadn't very carefully chosen how to say:
 
Though the headline (as reported by KSL, and clearly catered to passify the minds of a Utah-based, mostly Mormon audience) reports that Steve Young "corrects" his involvement in Prop 8, if one reads/listens to Steve's actual words, he's really (in my view, intentionally) muddying his all-too-publically reported private involvement, so as to avoid public punishment, by the church: 
 

Steve Young corrects involvement in Prop. 8
November 2nd, 2008 @ 9:31pm
By Carole Mikita
<!-- ===================[ STORY BODY : RICH TEXT ]================= -->
Steve Young is speaking out about his family and California's Proposition 8. He's reacting to the use of his name in a press release from the "Vote No" Prop. 8 group.
"I have not given anyone authority to use my name whatsoever, in any political matter," he said.
Opposing sides have spent some $60 million on ads for and against the proposed amendment which would ban same-sex marriage. Recently, Steve and Barbara Young's names have been linked to the issue.
 

Hall of Famer Steve Young and his family took center field last month as the San Francisco 49ers retired his number 8. Now his fame has brought him into the controversy of another 8 -- Proposition 8, banning same-sex marriage.
On YouTube a video of the Young home in Palo Alto from a California television station shows a "Vote No" on Prop. 8 sign and anti-discrimination Halloween decorations. Saturday the "No on Prop. 8" organization issued a press release saying NBA great Magic Johnson is calling Prop. 8 wrong and unfair. It also said Steve Young's family announced its opposition.
Barbara Young is passionate about this issue. Her brother Michael is gay. Her statement reads, in part, "We believe all families matter, and we do not believe in discrimination, therefore, our family will vote against Proposition 8." She later said, Steve "makes no endorsement."
By phone Sunday night, Steve offered a statement as a chance to correct that press release and subsequent reports.
"Barb and I love each other very much. It is that love of each other and the Savior that helps us come to the decisions we do. For Barb, who has a remarkable and enviable compassion for others, those political activities are far more public than mine. Those who know me, know I chose long ago not to be publicly active in the political process. I do have strong opinions. I do vote and will vote on Tuesday, but those matters are private," he said.
Steve is not only a football legend but a famous Latter-day Saint. This story has made Internet headlines.
Steve said, "Barb and I and our children love our church and our faith, which allows for a wide diversity of political discourse. In our case, our diversity does not diminish in any way our or my love, respect and sustaining of the leadership of our church, which is deep and profound."
Steve declined to answer any questions, saying the statement is all he wishes to say publicly on the matter.
E-mail: .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
 
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=4686916

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Do not be too moral.  You may cheat yourself out of too much life.
Aim high above morality.  Be not simply good; be good for something.
—Henry David Thoreau


   


Posted: 09 February 2009 07:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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By the way, in discussing Steve Young's very, very "measured" non-supportive, yet prophetic-sustaining response, I mentioned Donny Osmond's statement about gay marriage (a few years prior to Prop 8, though), from his website www.donny.com.  Although even Donny, himself, doesn't explicitly ever state that he would vote for Prop 8, it seems to be a much more conservative-LDS, "anti-gay-marriage stance" statement than Steve's more vague answer.  The contrast is interesting, IMO.  Even Donny, however, doesn't seem to respond to the political angle:
 
 
 
  Question Here is my question. How do you think Christians should respond to Gay friends who consider themselves "Married" I know you have some friends like this (Rosie)? And one of my dearest friends on earth, a guy, also born 12/9/57 is like this? I support President Bush on his recent stance on this, that Gay marriages should not be recognized, yet I love my friend dearly and would NEVER want to hurt him. This one is a toughie I know and you are in a more vulnerable position than myself as you are so in the public eye, but our beliefs and faith in God should and do come first. How do you as a Christian treat your friends who consider themselves married. I know you are nice, that's a stupid question , I think react is a better word. God Bless you always.

Response My beliefs about marriage is beautifully stated in The Family - A Proclamation To The World, a document published by the leaders of our church back in 1995. I am going to include it here.

We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator's plan for the eternal destiny of His children.
All human beings-male and female-are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshiped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize his or her divine destiny as an heir of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of God and for families to be united eternally.

The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God's commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.

We declare the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God's eternal plan.

Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. "Children are an heritage of the Lord" (Psalms 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, to teach them to love and serve one another, to observe the commandments of God and to be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives-mothers and fathers-will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.

The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed.

We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.

We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society. (End of Proclamation)

There are many gay individuals that are members of our church. I know many of them. In fact, some of my best friends are gay. You ask how I react regarding their marriages. Well, I do support our Church leaders who say that we can accept those with gay tendencies in our church as long as they do not act upon their temptations. Everyone has tenancies to succumb to temptation, but we all have the same standard given to us by our Father in Heaven. Whether we may be tempted to be immoral with members of our own sex or of the opposite sex, we are expected to live chaste lives. This is very well explained not only in the Book of Mormon, but in the Bible as well.
You see, the whole beauty of God's plan is that we all have our free agency to live our lives the way we want to live them. Personally, I believe in the words stated above and that they came from a living prophet, so I abide by them.
We all determine for ourselves what is right and what is not right for our own lives and how we live God's commandments. I am not a judge and I will never judge anyone for the decisions they make unless they are causing harm to another individual. I love my friends, including my gay friends. We are all God's children. It is their choice, not mine on how they conduct their lives and choose to live the commandments according to the dictates of their own conscience.
I hope this helps.
Sincerely,
Donny Osmond

http://www.donny.com/question.pl/view/465//Gay_people_who_consider_themselves_married__Your_thoughts.html
 
 
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Do not be too moral.  You may cheat yourself out of too much life.
Aim high above morality.  Be not simply good; be good for something.
—Henry David Thoreau


   


Posted: 09 February 2009 08:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
sciencezgood
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darin:
sciencezgood:

I can understand your point of view Darin. I don't personally know the inner workings of their relationship, nor should I care. I just thought it was interesting that Mrs. Young put such blatantly anti Prop 8 (and thus anti LDS leadership on the that issue, right?) decor in her front yard. Then Mr. Young diffuses the story by saying something like "My wife has very strong emotions on this issue (implying that his emotions are not strong)." To some women, that might be considered 'not standing up for your wife'.
 
The fact that most Mormons weren't prepared for the complications that Prop 8 brought to the LDS church does not let anyone off the hook. If those that are in the LDS church that are against prop 8 are speaking up for the injustice in sacrament meetings, then fine. But if people who speak up are ostracized  or excommunicated for being against leadership....  it's a damn cult and it should be stopped.
 
 
I can appreciate that many would feel unsupported if their spouse released the kind of statement that Steve did, following Barb's reported views.  I think it's worth emphasizing your point that none of us personally understand the inner workings of their relationship--even myself. 
 
What I did observe is that they are loving and supportive of each other, when they are together.  As the three of us openly discussed my being gay, the encouragement I recieved while attending BYU from two bishops and an LDS therapist "to marry a good woman, and all these feelings will go away," and my ensuing failed temple marriage, both Steve and Barb were respectful, horrified, and determined to help prevent such sham marriages in the future.
 
Barb is clearly the more passionate of the two, because her own brother is gay.  Steve doesn't have that direct family connection, save through marriage.  Barb has been dealing with it for a much longer time, and on a much closer level, than Steve has.  That he is so open about it is commendable, IMO (even his "clarifying statement" did not SUPPORT Mormon leadership--it was mostly an attempt to stay out of the crossfire and avoid punishment from the church).
 
Having spent the brief but significant time with the Youngs, as I did, I would be very, very surprised if Steve and Barb did NOT discuss the decision for him to respond to some of the high profile press his wife's statements received, prior to him doing so.  It seems clear that his words were carefully planned and chosen, so as not to publically "come out" against church leadership, but also not to show his support for them, either.  Similiarly, I don't think he ever contradicted his wife.
 
Saying "my wife has strong feelings on the subject" doesn't demonstrate that he doesn't---if anything, it publically obfuscates his views.  Your assumption (that he doesn't share such strong views) seems likely the very reaction he was hoping that active Mormons and his church leaders might have--so as to avoid church discipline.  Deftly, he did so, without actually contracting his wife, or "selling her under the bus."  And, as I've said, from what I witnessed within their relationship, I doubt he did so without her prior knowledge and discussing the issue with her prior to commenting to the press about it.
 
Even the assumption that it was Barb, not also Steve, who "put up the 'No on Prop 8'" signs in their yards is an assumption.  And, again... I think that kind of obfuscation is the type of aversion of the subject they were looking for, when it came to avoiding blatently, publically going against church leadership.
 
As a gay man with a Mormon background that served a mission, graduated from BYU, married in the SL temple, and tried very, very hard to be straight (and was ultimately unsuccessful, in those attempts), I felt morally outraged, betrayed and angry about the church's very public stance against civil rights (even as I recognize their legal right to engage in the political process, so long as they do not support any specific candidate).  My saying that I believe most church members (as well as the leadership) were unprepared for the PR nightmare Prop 8 became for them is not intended as a sign for my desire "to let anyone off the hook."  But calling into question the Young's personal beliefs--when they were some of the more high-profile Mormons who OPPOSED Prop 8--is counterproductive to the cause of equal civil rights for those of us who are LGBT.  Whether it was Barb, Steve, or both, that put the signs in their yard, the fact that such signs were even displayed (not to mention that they remained) in front of their home is significant. 
 
The fact that Steve did not contradict the signs--or his wife--by publically supporting church leadership in his clarifying statement is significant.  The Youngs are LGBT allies, while trying to remain allies of the church.  I can understand and appreciate their struggle to do so, without feeling the need to claim they must be "with me, or against me" in this fight.  I can allow them to love and appreciate the church, and want to keep their membership--even if I don't personally want or value the church in the same way.  If I ask others to respect my position (even when they don't share mine), I feel it is important that I respect theirs (even when I don't share theirs), as long as their view doesn't legally force me to abide by their own--which, in this case, the Youngs' stance did not, even when their church's asked them to.  In this case, the church (and those members that supported it) is to be condemned--not those more liberal-minded Mormons who break with church leadership (either publically, or privately) and vote their conscience.
 
I also agree that Mormonism can accurately be considered "a cult," due to many of the ways it seeks to control and limit it's members.  However, I am uncomfortable with your statement that "if it ostracizes or excommunicates members," then it "should be stopped."  As much as I agree that ostracizing others, excommunicating them, or behaving in "cultish" manners is unethical and immoral... I don't believe any religion is "breaking the law," by ostracizing or excommunicating members who don't live up to it's personal standards.  If, by saying "it should be stopped," you mean legal control or coersion of a church on how to regulate it's own membership--then I disagree.  If, by saying "it should be stopped," you mean that members and/or non-members should proactively work to discourage such harsh and potentially insensative/emotionally-harmful tools, I have no problem with that.  In fact, that kind of proactive work to get the church to change its policies could be a form of "ostracizing," in-and-of-itself.
 
Sorry about the long-winded post... I haven't yet mastered the virtue of brevity (though I keep trying!).
 
My views,
Darin
Great points Darin...
As a nevermo, I have to say, there's this one overall concept here that I just simply don't understand. It's this "not following one's own convictions for fear of not 'sustaining the prophet'". Where does this come from? This is one of the most damaging aspects of a cult - not only does a religion have you by the balls, but so does its leadership. Darin, are you supporting Mr. Young's fear of disagreeing with LDS leadership on this one point or are you undertanding the fear?
 
I never said that a religion should be dismantled because it excommunicates people. If I start a church called "Everybody Loves Everybody" and one person in my new church goes out and kills a bunch of people, I would certainly excommunicate that person. Reason being, his killing of people goes directly against the mission and purpose of my new church - for everybody to love everybody. As I understand, the purpose of the LDS church is not to "sustain its leadership", or is it? Why does one have to fear being ostracized or excommunicated for disagreeing with church leadership on one issue? Why is there so much fear in the flock to stand up and say "No, I disagree with Monson on this one." What's the big deal with someone thinking for themself? I get the impression that Mormons are not encouraged to think for themselves. This is cult like. This is very damaging. This is why I believe LDS is a negative influence on society.
 
Yes, you're right, who gives a crud about the Young's stance on Prop 8? I don't really care. Whether or not Mr. Young makes some sort of public statement won't make much a dent in the fear propagated by the pro Prop 8 side. But this cultish fear of standing up for one's beliefs is very disconcerting to me.
 
The Prop 8 answer (or at least a big part of it) is educating the public on homosexuality. But all the education in the world won't work unless people have the courage to stand up and make themselves heard.


   


Posted: 09 February 2009 08:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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One could only imagine if Steve were very vocal against the church.  Surely the Danites would be after him.
 
 


   


Posted: 09 February 2009 09:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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sciencezgood:
 
As a nevermo, I have to say, there's this one overall concept here that I just simply don't understand. It's this "not following one's own convictions for fear of not 'sustaining the prophet'". Where does this come from? This is one of the most damaging aspects of a cult - not only does a religion have you by the balls, but so does its leadership. Darin, are you supporting Mr. Young's fear of disagreeing with LDS leadership on this one point or are you undertanding the fear?
 
 
Yeah, I totally agree that it's challenging to understand the concept of "not following one's own convictions for fear of not 'sustaining the prophet'."  That type of mindless allegience/obedience, excusing one's self of personal responsability (given that God won't hold you personally accountable if things turn out bad "so long as you were only following the prophet") is an incredibly harmful idea.  It keeps people in the state of perpetually being blameless, inexperienced, and ultimately incapable-of-true-wisdom (which only comes when knowledge is APPLIED through personal EXPERIENCE).
 
Am I supporting or understanding "fear of disagreeing"...?  Excellent, thought-provoking question!  I think I can certainly understand it, having once been there myself (a bit of my own 'knowledge being applied through personal experience').  I'm not sure I would state that I "support his fear of disagreeing with his church leadership."  But I definately support his right, as a citizen, to choose for himself "to fear of disagreeing with his church leadership."  Does the difference I'm trying to get at make sense...?  I can sit with someone (in this case, Steve Young--but it is true of anyone, famous or not) and share my view of religion, control, and the desire to purge fear from my own motivations... but, in the end, if Steve chooses to act in accordance with his desire to remain LDS, I need to respect that, as I hope my family respects my choice to have left it behind.
 
More in a bit...
D
 
 
 
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Posted: 09 February 2009 09:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
sciencezgood
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darin:
sciencezgood:
 
As a nevermo, I have to say, there's this one overall concept here that I just simply don't understand. It's this "not following one's own convictions for fear of not 'sustaining the prophet'". Where does this come from? This is one of the most damaging aspects of a cult - not only does a religion have you by the balls, but so does its leadership. Darin, are you supporting Mr. Young's fear of disagreeing with LDS leadership on this one point or are you undertanding the fear?
 
 
Yeah, I totally agree that it's challenging to understand the concept of "not following one's own convictions for fear of not 'sustaining the prophet'."  That type of mindless allegience/obedience, excusing one's self of personal responsability (given that God won't hold you personally accountable if things turn out bad "so long as you were only following the prophet") is an incredibly harmful idea.  It keeps people in the state of perpetually being blameless, inexperienced, and ultimately incapable-of-true-wisdom (which only comes when knowledge is APPLIED through personal EXPERIENCE).
 
Am I supporting or understanding "fear of disagreeing"...?  Excellent, thought-provoking question!  I think I can certainly understand it, having once been there myself (a bit of my own 'knowledge being applied through personal experience').  I'm not sure I would state that I "support his fear of disagreeing with his church leadership."  But I definately support his right, as a citizen, to choose for himself "to fear of disagreeing with his church leadership."  Does the difference I'm trying to get at make sense...?  I can sit with someone (in this case, Steve Young--but it is true of anyone, famous or not) and share my view of religion, control, and the desire to purge fear from my own motivations... but, in the end, if Steve chooses to act in accordance with his desire to remain LDS, I need to respect that, as I hope my family respects my choice to have left it behind.
 
More in a bit...
D
 
 
 
I'm not sure that we, as humans, choose to fear things. I think we either fear things or we don't fear things. I think we can choose, to some degree, how we react to that fear and educate ourselves against fear, but I don't think we actually choose what we feel. Please realize that I'm not trying to tear Mr. Young apart here. As a nevermo, I'm fascinated by very intelligent people's fears of disagreeing with a 'prophet'. As a nevermo, I'm scared that people can be controlled like this.
 


   


            
 
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How many people have left the Church?  
Posted: 24 April 2008 01:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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I've seen figures each year showing the growth of the LDS church.  Are any figures ever produced with the numbers of people who have officially left the church or been excommunicated?  Are there any statistics showing approx. how many of the total number of members are "less active" or "inactive"?  I'm really curious!  I'm curious what these numbers are in the USA as well as the world.
Also any current links with the supposed growth of the church?  I'm just curious how much the church pads or inflates these figures.  TIA!
 
 
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Posted: 24 April 2008 01:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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No such official figures exist. This topic has been discussed to death and if you search the forms you'll find more threads then you actually want on the topic.
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Posted: 24 April 2008 01:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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From what I have read the church doesn't post active versus inactive stats.  The church merely posts what is on their records which is optimistic to say the least.  A long time ago an estimate could be made when they posted priesthood holder numbers and an active member count could be roughly derived from that.  Nobody can give an exact active member count now, but when you consider those that were baptised and left shortly after (kid sporting memberships, those that quickly lost interest, those that move away, ect) estimates say that the active church membership could be as small as 50 to 60 percent of what the church claims as its membership count.
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Posted: 24 April 2008 01:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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warmfuzzylogic:
From what I have read the church doesn't post active versus inactive stats.  The church merely posts what is on their records which is optimistic to say the least.  A long time ago an estimate could be made when they posted priesthood holder numbers and an active member count could be roughly derived from that.  Nobody can give an exact active member count now, but when you consider those that were baptised and left shortly after (kid sporting memberships, those that quickly lost interest, those that move away, ect) estimates say that the active church membership could be as small as 50 to 60 percent of what the church claims as its membership count.
 Wow, that low you think?  I'll do some searches from old posts. I'm very new here and am still learing how this forum works.  Thanks!
 
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Posted: 24 April 2008 01:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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estimates say that the active church membership could be as small as 50 to 60 percent of what the church claims as its membership count.
 If that is true it is no wonder that the church doesn't want to compile those particular stats. 
 


   


Posted: 24 April 2008 01:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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This was discussed around General Conference time in this thread: http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/6996/
 
You pose a very interesting question that I don't think anyone but those that work at the Church Office Building could answer.  And they haven't released any numbers to the public as of yet and I highly doubt that they ever will. 
 
My personal speculation is that the numbers of members leaving or being ex'd steadily increases every year since the internet.
 
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Posted: 24 April 2008 01:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Lynx:
estimates say that the active church membership could be as small as 50 to 60 percent of what the church claims as its membership count.
 If that is true it is no wonder that the church doesn't want to compile those particular stats. 
 
 
I think this is generous. I've heard that 1/3 of those on the roles in predominantly mormon areas are inactive. Outside of Utah and Idaho, my guess is that 1/3 of those on the roles are active. In Europe, I've heard the numbers of active members is much narrower.
 
It would be interesting to have a few folks open thier ward directory and estimate the activity level for their ward.


   


Posted: 24 April 2008 01:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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amusick
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Actually activity rates are probably more like 35-40% in the US and much lower in some countries.  In some age brackets (ie young single adult women) the activity rate is around 20% (see "Where Have All the Young Women Gone" at Main Street Plaza). 
 
As far as members who have left, been exed, etc., I have seen figures around 90,000 per year, which over a ten year period is about a million.
 
Also they count you until you are 110 if they don't know you died.  So numbers are definitely inflated. 
 
There is good evidence that growth in the US in stagnant (possibly even negative), but there is still growth overseas.  The problem with that is that US members pay most of the tithing. 
 
just google Growth and Mormonism and you will get lots of interesting stats.  Richard Packham's site has one of the best ones I have seen.


   


Posted: 24 April 2008 01:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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warmfuzzylogic:
 estimates say that the active church membership could be as small as 50 to 60 percent of what the church claims as its membership count.
 
I posted a thread among the many others about this subject, and according to my humble number crunching, the church has at best around a 33% active rate overall. 
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Posted: 24 April 2008 01:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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((13,000,000/648,736*(26,000/83774))/146,000)*250= NOT AS MANY AS THEY CLAIM.
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Posted: 24 April 2008 02:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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friendlyexmo:
warmfuzzylogic:
 estimates say that the active church membership could be as small as 50 to 60 percent of what the church claims as its membership count.
 
I posted a thread among the many others about this subject, and according to my humble number crunching, the church has at best around a 33% active rate overall. 
 
You may very well be correct.  My stats come from books that are nearly a decade old and since this is all conjecture (I'm sure even if the church did a proper accounting it would have serious room for error) all we can really say is that the numbers given at conference are flawed and propaganda to make people feel like the stone is rolling when it is most likely breaking into rubble (erosion does that).  I like your numbers better, so we will go with that (since we are all guessing, including the church, we might as well guess in the way that makes us feel best).
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Posted: 24 April 2008 03:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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My official information from my bishop husband is that the members are dropping like flies.  He said that in our ward conference.  I'm not sure how many that is though.  

   


Posted: 24 April 2008 03:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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In this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZQJc5SxnVs He says that the Salt Lake Tribune estimated that 2/3 of the LDS Church is inactive. I just found this video this afternoon. I'm quite shocked. This is a great video by the way. I'm going to show it to my TBM when he gets home.
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“Courage is rightly esteemed the first of human qualities because it is the quality which guarantees all others.”

“Courage is not the absence of fear, but the capacity to act despite our fears.”


   


Posted: 24 April 2008 03:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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alli8
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Oh, and I do agree that I bet that now that the internet is so readily available and members are stumbling across all this new information that was not available 10-15 years ago, I would imagine that the inactive and drop-out rates are soaring!
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“Courage is rightly esteemed the first of human qualities because it is the quality which guarantees all others.”

“Courage is not the absence of fear, but the capacity to act despite our fears.”


   


Posted: 24 April 2008 03:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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countrygirl
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Hi,
 
Here are some links for you. 
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/6996/
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/7108/
Church Statistics 1973-2006, Tinkered.xls  
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/4273/
http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon403.htm
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php?ACT=41&fid=5&aid=1214_s6wvtxxcAkePJcS4NxgG&board_id=1
Here is an interesting article that came out in the SLtribune.
The claim that Mormonism is the fastest-growing faith in the world has been repeated so routinely by sociologists, anthropologists, journalists and proud Latter-day Saints as to be perceived as unassailable fact.
    The trouble is, it isn't true.
    Today, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has more than 12 million members on its rolls, more than doubling its numbers in the past quarter-century. But since 1990, other faiths - Seventh-day Adventists, Assemblies of God and Pentecostal groups - have grown much faster and in more places around the globe.
   And most telling, the number of Latter-day Saints who are considered active churchgoers is only about a third of the total, or 4 million in the pews every Sunday, researchers say.
    For a church with such a large, dedicated missionary corps constantly seeking to spread its word, conversion numbers in recent years tell an unexpected story.  According to LDS-published statistics, the annual number of LDS converts declined from a high of 321,385 in 1996 to 241,239 in 2004. In the 1990s, the church's growth rate went from 5 percent a year to 3 percent.
    By comparison, the Seventh-day Adventist Church reports it has added more than 900,000 adult converts each year since 2000 (an average growth of about 5 percent), bringing the total membership
to 14.3 million. The Assemblies of God now claims more than 50 million members worldwide, adding 10,000 new members every day.
    Russia provides a dramatic example of different religious growth rates. After more than 15 years of proselyting there, LDS membership has risen to 17,000. During the same period, Jehovah's Witnesses membership has increased to more than 140,000, with some 300,000 individuals attending conferences.
   
    Graphing activity: When the Graduate Center of the City University of New York conducted an American Religious Identification Survey in 2001, it discovered that about the same number of people said they had joined the LDS Church as said they had left it. The CUNY survey reported the church's net growth was zero percent. By contrast, the study showed both Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-Day Adventists with an increase of 11 percent.
   "Because membership statistics are prepared and reported differently by various religious groups, the LDS Church does not publish comparisons of total membership to other faiths," said LDS spokesman Dale Bills on Friday.
    On the question of how many Mormons are actively participating, Brigham Young University demographer Tim Heaton noted in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism that attendance at weekly sacrament meetings in the early 1990s was between 40 percent and 50 percent in Canada, the South Pacific, and the United States. In Europe and Africa, the average was 35 percent. Attendance in Asia and Latin America hovered around 25 percent.
    By multiplying the number of members in each area by these fractions, David G. Stewart Jr. estimates worldwide activity at about 35 percent - which would give the church about 4 million active members.
    Stewart, an active Mormon who served a mission to Russia in the early 1990s, has been conducting research on LDS missionary work in 20 countries for 13 years, examining census figures, and analyzing published data.
    Take Brazil. In its 2000 Census, 199,645 residents identified themselves as LDS, while the church listed 743,182 on its rolls.
    "There may be any number of reasons for the discrepancy," Bills said, "including personal preferences of some citizens regarding disclosure of their religious affiliation."
   
    Retaining members: Stewart says Mormons need to be aware of such statistics to be more effective missionaries. To that end, he is publishing his research, along with a description of what he calls "tested principles to improve growth and retention," in a forthcoming book, The Law of the Harvest: Practical Principles of Effective Missionary Work.
    "It is a matter of grave concern that the areas with the most rapid numerical membership increase, Latin America and the Philippines, are also the areas with extremely low convert retention," says Stewart, a California physician. "Many other groups, including the Adventists and Jehovah's Witnesses, have consistently achieved excellent convert retention rates in those cultures and societies. Latter-day Saints lose 70 to 80 percent of their converts, while Adventists retain 70 to 80 percent of theirs."
    Perhaps the best measure of LDS Church growth is the rate of new church units, such as wards (congregations) and stakes (like a diocese). Because they are staffed by volunteers, such units cannot function without enough active members.
    In 1980, The Ensign, the LDS Church's official magazine, predicted that membership would grow from 4.6 million members at that time to 11.1 million members in 2000, and from 1,190 stakes to 3,600 in 2000. While the number of members came very close to the projected value, there were 2,602 stakes worldwide at the end of 2002.
   "You can use these trends to say that the percentage is slowing, the numbers have leveled off or they are dropping. They tell us what is happening right now," Heaton says. "But to try and tell us about the future is risky business. What if all of a sudden China or India lets us in and the [missionary] work takes off?"
   
    Predicting the future: In 1984, University of Washington sociologist Rodney Stark was astonished to discover that the LDS Church's growth rate from 1940 through 1980 was 53 percent. He estimated that if it continued to grow at a more modest 30 percent, there would be 60 million Mormons by the year 2080; if 50 percent, the figure would explode to 265 million.
    He famously predicted that the LDS Church "will soon achieve a worldwide following comparable to that of Islam, Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, and the other dominant world faiths."
    Latter-day Saints were on the threshold of becoming "the first major faith to appear on earth since the Prophet Mohammed rode out of the desert," Stark wrote.
    Many people, especially Mormons, eagerly embraced Stark's assessment. In recent years, though, some scholars have challenged his assumptions.
   For one thing, True Pure Land Buddhism, Sokka Gakkai, Baha'i and Sufism are all of comparable or greater size and have arisen since Islam in the 7th century, said Gerald McDermott, a religious studies professor at Virginia's Roanoke College who gave a paper at a Library of Congress symposium on Mormonism in April.
    One key to Mormonism becoming a world religion, McDermott says, is how well it can transcend its founding culture to become universal. Catholicism, for example, began in Jerusalem but found a home in many other places, where it easily assimilated into local cultures.
    The LDS message has found a ready audience in Latin America and the South Pacific, where Mormon missionaries can tell people God did not neglect them. The Book of Mormon is the story of a Hebrew family that migrated from Jerusalem to the New World and tells of a visit to their descendants by Jesus Christ after his resurrection.
    Still, the church may not fare as well as other Christian religions in Africa and China, since it has no such reassurance for them, he says.
   
   American faith: Mormonism is "so thoroughly American," McDermott said in a recent phone interview. "God visited [Mormon founder] Joseph Smith in upstate New York. Eden began in Missouri and the millennium will end there. The new exodus took place in North America."
    None of these critiques bother Stark, who now teaches at Baylor University in Waco, Texas. He is amused by the reactions.
    "The church liked the results and people who are against the church are desperate to figure out why it won't happen," he said last week. "Everyone takes the thing too seriously. I've tried to make clear all along that I was just trying to bring a little discipline to a lot of crazy conversations."
    It was a game of "let's pretend," Stark says, when he applied the compound interest formula and saw huge numbers of Mormons.
    He says he never meant his projections to dictate the future of Mormonism. Others may have more complex models that challenge his findings.
   "They may be right," he says. "But again, if [Mormon growth] has slowed a little, it can always speed up again."
   Stark, whose work will be republished this fall in a new volume, The Rise of a New World Faith: Rodney Stark on Mormonism, doesn't see any reason to apologize for his claims.
    "Already there are more Mormons than Jews," he says, "and we want to consider Judaism a major world religion."
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Posted: 24 April 2008 04:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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Oh this thread made me so happy!  I am so glad that there is an estimate of how many that are really are going to church!  I am so hoping that next year when the morg announces its numbers that they have gone down!!! 

   


Posted: 24 April 2008 02:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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Kristi:
Oh this thread made me so happy!  I am so glad that there is an estimate of how many that are really are going to church!  I am so hoping that next year when the morg announces its numbers that they have gone down!!!
 I hope so too, but you have to remember that we are stil baptising like crazy in areas like S America and Brazil.  So the rates may still go up a bit unless all the inactives will remove their names from the records.  The rates will only go down if people are actually requesting to have their name removed.  My hope is that it at least stays the same.  Hopefully the "post" mormon era will encourage all those out there who are official members but not really members to go out and remove their names.  Most people that have left the church some time ago just don't care enough to have their name removed though.
 
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Posted: 24 April 2008 02:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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Best Estimates:
 
Activity rate in the US: 25-50% Depending on location (there are a few isolated pockets where activity rates peak at 80%)
Activity rate outside the US: 10-25%
Overall activity rate: Approximately 33%
% of active members who are full tithe payers: 30%
% of members who resign: A statistically insignificant amount
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Posted: 24 April 2008 03:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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amusick
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Here is the Packham site where the estimates for 100,000 members resigning per year are found. 
 
http://packham.n4m.org/growth.htp
 
I don't know how bonafied they are.


   


            
 
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“The Most Persecuted Religious Group in American History”  
Posted: 09 February 2008 12:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Tal Bachman
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What never seems to occur to us as Mormons is whether there might have been some contributing factor to Mormon persecution besides "Satan knows we're the only true religion and wants to destroy us".
.

It never occurs to us that the founder and leader of Mormonism might have been hounded because he jumped bail, broke laws virtually everywhere he went (including Ohio's banking laws), defaulted on loans, remorselessly demanded offerings and donations from his followers, used his position to secretly take sexual advantage of numerous women in an era when chastity was highly prized, was caught lying and changing "eternal" doctrine on the fly, bankrupted so many with his stupid banking scheme, double-crossed local politicians, publicly humiliated or slandered those who criticized him, announced that only he and his apostles had any legitimate authority to govern on earth, proclaimed that every other religious creed on earth was an "abomination" and that only he had the truth, announced his designs as a presidential candidate to bring all of North and South America under his dominion through military force if necessary, taught that monogamous marriage was a "superstition", engineered the taking over of local governments, evidently told his followers that "stealing from the Gentiles" was no crime, had himself appointed "Lieutenant General" of his own private army nearly one third the size of the US standing army of the time, and organized a secret band of vigilantes and had them swear an oath to obey him "whether right or wrong";
.

and it also never occurs to us that his completely deluded followers, who frequently enabled Smith's virtually sociopathic behavior and protected him whenever possible, might then also naturally have been targeted.
.

This was Jacksonian America, on the frontier, where "civilization" and "the economy" - the general prospects for survival - were a lot more fragile than they seem today. Attempts at abolishing private property, overthrowing democracy in favor of theocracy, completely reconfiguring social order including marriage, taking property which didn't belong to them, etc., wouldn't have seemed merely irksome, but incredibly alarming. This was a long time before the National Guard, or AFDC, or credit cards, or even full-time police forces, were around...
.

Indeed, what is perhaps most amazing about Americans in that era is just how tolerant they often were: the early and mid 1800s were a time of great religious innovation all throughout America. Sects and communes arose which practiced free love, nudity, communism, all sorts of esoteric things, and believed in even stranger things; and if there is any pattern at all, it is that if they didn't bother the community at large, the community didn't bother them, and they lived in peace with each other.
.

But presiding over a mere commune was never enough for Smith. No - he wanted to preside over - and change, disrupt, subvert - everything else, including American democratic structures and institutions themselves, at least wherever they were impediments to his own ambitions (which they almost always were). Perhaps most famously, this included the 600 year old right (originating in Magna Carta, English common law, and most recently in the US Bill of Rights) to freedom of speech and freedom of the press: Joseph Smith, like all dictators, was in favor of these rights just as long as their exercise was to his advantage. Once they weren't, and as soon as he was in a position to do so, as the virtual dictator of the city-state of Nauvoo he sought to abolish them by ordering the destruction of a printing press, the only crime of which was to have published not lies, but truths, about Smith's abuse of his position to secure sex. (Given that and his martial, imperial ambitions, one can only imagine what sorts of things he might have done if he'd won the presidency of the United States. He might have made the unprincipled Aaron Burr look like George Washington.)

 .
Today, a team of state or federal prosecutors might take the time make an example of such a person; but in 1840's America, such teams didn't exist in the numbers they do today. For better or for worse, communities usually policed themselves. Sometimes they did it in violent ways - but it's not as if Joseph Smith didn't know that.
.

I would never say that I thought Joseph Smith deserved to be assassinated, or that his followers deserved to be driven away from their homes. But then, I would never say that a man who decided to leave his wallet on top of his car deserved to have it stolen. It's just that, if you do, it will be stolen; and if you do the sorts of things that Joseph Smith and his followers did in rural, frontier, Jacksonian America, what you'll get is just what they did get.
.
It is a shame - one man's lunatic delusions of grandeur and lusts led many thousands to suffer - but...if you do what they did, when and where they did it...what would happen, is just what did happen. 
. 
And they did it anyway.
.
If Mormon Church defenders were properly educated by their seminary and church teachers, and honest and fair, they would mention this part of the story everytime they mentioned that "Mormons are the most persecuted religious group in American history" - which is why they never will.
.
 
 
 
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Posted: 09 February 2008 03:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Zim
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I was always greatly offended by persecution of mormons until I lived in Utah County. Then I sort of got it. To paraphrase Chris Rock, "I ain't sayin' they shoulda killed them ... but I understand!" 
 
Seriously though, if you want proof that people didn't persecute mormons because of their religious beliefs alone, you only have to look at the reorganized church. They held many of the same weird beliefs as regular mormons, save one: polygamy. The reorganized church existed peacefully with its neighbors. I'm not going to go so far as to say there was no persecution, but I do know there were other contributory factors.


   


Posted: 09 February 2008 03:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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gingerbreadapron
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This has been a sore spot of mine for a long time.  The persecution complex that takes no responsibility for anything that the Joseph Smith camp had to do with it.  Not that violence toward a group is ever warranted, but the utter open-mouthed confusion about why others would want to persecute a group that is "just" trying to "follow God"....
 
I'll never forget sitting in Sunday School class in Provo several years ago.  We were discussing when the saints were in Missouri. One of the ward members (a well-read art professor from BYU) raised their hand and mentioned that it is important to remember some of the things that the church was doing to incur the opposition of others....there was a dead silence in the room, nobody said a word and the teacher quickly moved on.  Most members don't know enough about church history (only the sanitized version) to know about any of these things.  It would be too much to comprehend for many of them I think.  After all, have you seen the sentimenta, perfect man, wonderful father and husband Joseph Smith paintings that can be bought in Deseret Book that hang in many of their homes?  The early saints are their ancestors, venerated to the extreme.
 
The persecution complex is alive and well today, for both things both big and small, whether it is how Mitt Romney is being treated by the media or why people choose to speak out against church practices.  I tried to explain to a member how hard it is for parents who can't attend their children's weddings.  I asked them to imagine how they would feel if their child converted to a religion they knew little about and a religion which would not allow them to attend their child's wedding ceremony, a moment you look forward to your whole life.  Wouldn't they have some harsh words, at the very least?  Can they see for one moment (even to small extent objectively?) how people could see that as threatening, secretive, divisive?


   


Posted: 09 February 2008 06:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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I actually had a seminary teacher who suggested Mormons in Missouri, through their arrogance and smack talk, may have brought at least some of the persecution upon themselves.  Bless him for trying to open our minds.
 
Throughout history, the persecuted, once they gain the upper hand in a society, become the persecutors.  Christians were thrown to the lions in Rome; a few centuries later their descendants are slaughtering "infidels" in the Holy Land.  Puritans in England, and later in the American colonies with their witch hunts. Jews in Palestine (suggested reading:  Blood Brothers by Elias Chacour, a Palestinian Christian), Serbs and Croats in Bosnia, and, finally Mormons in Utah. Without even bringing up Mountain Meadows: We're the majority, so we'll make believe teens don't want to have sex, don't even think about sex, unless they attend a sex ed. class in school.  We'll ignore the alarming rate of increase in STD's so we don't have to use the word "prophylactic" in our classrooms.  We'll allow you to buy a bottle of wine, but it will be in our stores at our price, and we are the only ones allowed to make any money from it.  And forget about picking up a 12-pack for an impromptu barbeque on Sunday.  You live in "our" state, you'll live "our" way.  We'll "tolerate" you, but we really don't want to find out that there are decent people who don't share our beliefs or lifestyle, so maybe if we ignore you, you'll go away. 
 
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Posted: 09 February 2008 07:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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I remember when there were no rules about prosletyzing in the work place. I worked with a born again who was always preaching that I needed to be saved. I had a church. Evidentally, it did not fit the bill.
 
Another co-worker said to me, "Why are you against the Mormon Church?" I said that I wasn't. He said," You aren't one of us so you must be against us." Does that fit persecution or bullying?
 
Another Pentecostal ended his sentences with "Praise the Lord."
 
I went to the fair. A guy was handing out religious literature. He was a Pentecostal. I told him I already had a church. He asked which one and I told him. He said that watered down poor excuse for religion is not the true religion.
 
The JWs and the Mormon missionaries were showing up on my doorstep.
 
Remember the song, "Games People Play?" Well, they were coming up to me, shoutin' 'glory hallejuia, and tryin' to sock it to me, in the name of the Lord.'
 
I started seeing them as carrying boxes. Some had fancy boxes, some had plain boxes. All of them were trying to tell me they had God in their box. I would tell them that another person just told me he had God in his box. Some of them would say he was wrong. Others would say it was satan pretending to be God.
 
After awhile, I started thinking, "No wonder they threw them to the lions."


   


Posted: 09 February 2008 07:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Mester
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magi:
After awhile, I started thinking, "No wonder they threw them to the lions."
 
 


   


Posted: 09 February 2008 10:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Great topic Tal, When I first started to study church history of the unsanitezed nature I read Rough Stone Rolling by Bushman; after reading about how the mormons treated the residents of the Jackson County region I thought to myself that I would have done the same thing if I was a resident before the mormons came in. a bunch of religious nuts come in and start telling everyone that this land is meant to be theirs and that the Lord is going to remove everyone else etc. I would have defended my turf in the same manner they did. The mormons were nuts.
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Posted: 09 February 2008 10:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Personally, I think the native americans were the most persecuted here.
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Posted: 09 February 2008 11:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Winyan:
Personally, I think the native americans were the most persecuted.
 I agree... it's kind of off topic and a known saying, but whenever I hear a racist make a remark about sending a certain race "back to their country" I always remind them that the only people this country really belonged to were the native Americans.  Every other race came from "their own country" and it annoys me to NO END when ignorant people say stuff like that.
 
I also believe the Jewish faith was horribly persecuted during the holocaust... man's inhumanity to man.  I often wonder if I was alive at that time what I would have done.  It's amazing to hear the stories of the survivors, and I am proud to say that I shook the hand of a holocaust survivor and it brought me to tears.  She was an amazing person.
 
Mormons are very, very low on the list of persecuted people in my opinion. 
 
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Posted: 09 February 2008 11:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Winyan:
Personally, I think the native americans were the most persecuted here.
 
Come on.  You just say that because we treated them as inferiors, manipulated them, used genocide, used biological warfare (actually sold them blankets and stuff with disease contaminantes we knew they had no immunity toward), stole their land, made them move time after time, stole their innovations and called them our own, took their kids away and tried to force them to acclimate to our way of thinking, and broke nearly ever contract, treaty or truce we ever made with them - including currently "allowing them to be sovreign nations" but then trying to force them to bend to the will and desire of the mainstream.  But, hey...  We do let them have casinos now.
 
In comparison...  Mormons were forced to move a bunch of times, killed in frontier battles, forced to give up marrying multiple women, looked doown on by mainstream society, and...  Uhm...  I'm sure there is a bunch of stuff I'm missing...
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Posted: 10 February 2008 02:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Mester
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Boo F#@&ing Hoo  I say-  the persecution complex is so pathetic coming from the 'Saints'  
 
And the more I know about the real (unedited and uncensored) history, the more I realize that it is no different than the behavior of a schoolyard bully-  they spend most of their time beating the shit tithing out of their members, but as soon as someone points out a weakness in the system, they start sniveling like a bunch of sissy bitches. 
 
No offense to the sissy bitches out there.


   


Posted: 10 February 2008 07:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
magi
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Winyan:
Personally, I think the native americans were the most persecuted here.
 
You are absolutely right.
 
There is an old newspaper at our state archives that says if anyone has smallpox, would they donate their blankets to be given to the Indians.


   


Posted: 10 February 2008 09:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
CDN Mike
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Great well thought out post...would be a great letter to the editor on "pioneer day" in Utah 

   


Posted: 10 February 2008 10:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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When a group goes around saying that they are a peculiar people...
 
waddaya expect????
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Posted: 11 February 2008 01:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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duryen:
Winyan:
Personally, I think the native americans were the most persecuted here.
 
Come on.  You just say that because we treated them as inferiors, manipulated them, used genocide, used biological warfare (actually sold them blankets and stuff with disease contaminantes we knew they had no immunity toward), stole their land, made them move time after time, stole their innovations and called them our own, took their kids away and tried to force them to acclimate to our way of thinking, and broke nearly ever contract, treaty or truce we ever made with them - including currently "allowing them to be sovreign nations" but then trying to force them to bend to the will and desire of the mainstream.  But, hey...  We do let them have casinos now.
 
In comparison...  Mormons were forced to move a bunch of times, killed in frontier battles, forced to give up marrying multiple women, looked doown on by mainstream society, and...  Uhm...  I'm sure there is a bunch of stuff I'm missing...
 
    Just how old are you?  I had no part in the way they were treated.  That was a different era and a different people who did that.  And remember the DNA thing, They came here from Asia. 
 
   I feel "bad" about the way things happened in the past, but I don't feel responsible.  I was born here and I feel I belong here just as much as they do.
 
Jim 
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Posted: 11 February 2008 03:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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Drenx:
 
    Just how old are you?  I had no part in the way they were treated.  That was a different era and a different people who did that.  And remember the DNA thing, They came here from Asia. 
 
   I feel "bad" about the way things happened in the past, but I don't feel responsible.  I was born here and I feel I belong here just as much as they do.
 
Jim 
 
And none of the people currently in Missouri actually oppressed any Mormons.  Mitt wasn't tarred OR feathered.  What is your point in contribution to the discussion?
 
The Native Americans live on the crappiest land in the USA, even though they once roamed the whole freakin place.  Native Americans continue to have a wide variety of health problems directly linked to their past oppression.  When the Goshute Native Americans in Utah wanted to get money by storing nuclear waste on THEIR OWN LAND, the Utah government stripped them of their rights as a sovereign nation.  Oppression of Native Americans continues today.  One can argue that through poor education systems, poor medical treatment, and poor support systems in the inner city, African Americans and Latino Americans continue to be oppressed.
 
Interesting thing about the "DNA thing,"  it just shows that Asians are their closest relatives.  That does not mean that all of the indigienous peoples came from somewhere else.  Even if they did - they were still here before we were.  There is no evidence that THEY murdered, plundered, and stole the land from other indigenous peoples.
 
You were born here, and may belong here, but I feel a certain amount of responsibility to stop the continued oppression of non- Anglo people in the USA.
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Posted: 11 February 2008 03:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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duryen:
And none of the people currently in Missouri actually oppressed any Mormons.  Mitt wasn't tarred OR feathered.  What is your point in contribution to the discussion?
  Right back at ya:What is your point in contribution to the discussion?
 
My point is: I did had nothing to do with what happened to them 100's of years ago. So stop the "what we did to them" bs. 
 
Jim 
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Posted: 11 February 2008 06:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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Drenx:

duryen:
And none of the people currently in Missouri actually oppressed any Mormons.  Mitt wasn't tarred OR feathered.  What is your point in contribution to the discussion?
  Right back at ya:What is your point in contribution to the discussion?
 
My point is: I did had nothing to do with what happened to them 100's of years ago. So stop the "what we did to them" bs. 
 
Jim 
 
I guess my point was...  They are still persecuted.  If you aren't part of the solution -  maybe you are part of the problem.
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Posted: 11 February 2008 06:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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Right back at ya:What is your point in contribution to the discussion?
 
My point is: I did had nothing to do with what happened to them 100's of years ago. So stop the "what we did to them" bs. 
 
Jim 
 
 
Did you remember what this discussion was supposed to be about, or can your tiny brain only hold on to one thing at a time?
 
What has been done recently to Mormons? I heard about a tarring/feathering/lyinching last week, but other than that, I haven't heard of anything recently . . .
 
I can recall a Mormon leader blaming a massacre on the nonagressive Piautes . . . all evidence went against their having done it, but that didn't stop him.
 
What persecution do the Mormons currently have to endure? I know that the Persecution card is played when I make videos concerning history . . . do you have anything other than making fun of your religion/pointing out lies that you are taught? 
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Posted: 11 February 2008 07:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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The most persecuted groups in history have not been religious. The deaths based on nationality and ethnicity dwarf all others.
 
For example:
 
 
World War II
Soviet Union: 22,100,000
China: 20,000,000
Germany: 7,133,000
All nations: 40,000,000 - 72,400,000 depending on source
 
World War I
Entente Powers: 12,800,000
Central Powers: 8,400,000
 
Living in China or Russia during the early and middle 20th Century was particularly hazardous to a person's health.
 
If one really stretches the cost to Mormons in the 1900's the death toll runs somewhere between 3000-5000. That number is likely grossly overstated. The numbers from mob violence/persecution is somewhere comfortably south of 50....yes you read that right....50 people. The 3000-5000 number comes from Mormon "historians" pullling numbers out of their @$$e$ when they try to guess how many people died from exposure and illness during the persecutions. No it was not a good time for Mormonism and it was a terrible thing. However it pales in comparison to the Rape of Nanking, the purges in the Soviet Union, deaths in the Congo in the late 1800s, etc. 
 
Mark Twain stated, "If there is a God, he is a malign thug." The problem actually seems to be that many humans are malign thugs which Mark Twain alludes to.  
 
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“And most of the Israelites did not come from outside Canaan—they emerged from within it. There was no mass Exodus from Egypt. There was no violent conquest of Canaan. Most of the people who formed early Israel were local people—the same people whom we see in the highlands throughout the Bronze and Iron Ages. The early Israelites were—irony of ironies—themselves originally Canaanites!” - Finkelstein & Silberman


   


Posted: 11 February 2008 07:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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On my mission, we doored into Rabbi.  There was a star of David above the door so my comp followed protocol and began his salespitch by comparing the persecution of Mormons to Jews.  The Rabbi garnered just enough composure to rip my comp a new asshole.  I stood there laughing and the rabbi asked me why.  I couldn't answer because the real reason was that my comp was an arrogant yuppy.
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Dolly Parton to be Baptized (Faith Promoting Rumor Contest)  
Posted: 22 June 2007 05:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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The following is the very first parody I wrote for RfM.  I guess it was about a year ago.  I was a bit nervous to post my first attempt and thought it'd sink like a rock, but people liked it.  They've been lamenting that encouragement ever since, as they've been subjected to a steady stream of my silliness over the past year. :)

Through a series of miraculous events, the woman who once exclaimed, "It costs a lot of money to look this cheap!", has accepted the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and has committed to be baptized this Saturday at her Tennessee theme park, Dollywood.
In her generosity, Dolly has invited the entire Tennessee East Stake to attend her baptism and enjoy free admission to Dollywood. Per her request, she will be baptized in the water reservoir at the bottom of the Raging Rapids log ride.
Beehive Clothing is "abuzz" with anticipation of Dolly's baptism. Garment Design Manager, Chastity Bottoms, had this to say:
"Beehive Clothing has been granted special permission to design a new women's garment top especially for Sister Parton. The burning in her bosom is so great--it may set aflame the standard women's garment."
Sister Parton, inspired by the garment design of Beehive Clothing, is currently in collaboration with the makers of "gyno-panties" to design her own unique line of sacred undergarments. Dollygarms will be geared toward the "fully" endowed sisters, and those whose bosoms burn at a higher temperature than average. They are expected to be approved by the First Presidency in the next few weeks and will be available for online purchase by the end of the year.



My parody reminds me of all the far-fetched faith promoting rumors I've heard over the years.  Several years ago, the missionaries actually told me Steve Martin was a member, lol!  I told them I'd heard that rumor earlier and it wasn't true.

I think we should make up our own faith promoting rumors - I suppose they could be either faith promoting for the Mormon or ex-Mormon cause, whichever you prefer.  The faith promoting rumor I'm surprised I haven't heard yet is that Dr. Phil is taking the missionary lessons...

Tell your faith promoting rumor stories, and if you don't have any, make one up!

KA



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Posted: 22 June 2007 05:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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In the days of my youth and rabid zealous faith in the "Only True Church" I was excited to find out that Tom Selleck was a member of the Church! Wow, if Tom Selleck was a member that must mean the church really was true. (I also believed Paul H. Dunn stories.) I was disappointed to find out the Osmonds were members, if had it not been for my stalwart faith in the Church I would have left when I found out Tom was not a member and the Osmonds were!
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Posted: 22 June 2007 05:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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It's funny how those rumors get started. A few months back, my beloved MIL, a devout TBM, came over and asked if I knew that Barack Obama had been LDS, and only switched to his current religion when he decided to get into politics.
No, Mom. Thanks for telling me.
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Posted: 22 June 2007 06:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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One of my favorites goes back to my college days.  My first college roommate was a recently returned RM who served in Georgia.  The story he'd heard was that Michael Stipe, lead singer of REM, had been taking the discussions, and fully believed it.  While he wasn't one of the missionaries involved, he claimed to have known the ones that were.
However, he ran into a problem when they tried to commit Mr. Stipe to the law of chastity.  Since he's gay, he was unable to make that commitment.  He was so broken up about it that he wrote the song, "Losing my religion."
Well, according to this Wikipedia article, the song has nothing whatsoever to do with religion.  But as a TBM at the time, I totally sucked it in and believed the story.


   


Posted: 22 June 2007 07:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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I never heard about Michael Stipe or Obama, but I did hear that Alice Cooper was a Mormon.  I wonder if there's any truth to that one?  LOL!

KA
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Posted: 22 June 2007 07:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
jahedgpeth
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Some of the above stories reminded me of the site http://www.famousmormons.net
What a pathetic shrine built by  man-worshipping LDS faithful. I would be embarrassed about this site if I were a Mormon. I suppose that is some of the reason I am not a Mormon..hmmmmm
But, the most topical feature on this site is the page that displays and explains people's status who have been "rumored" to be LDS. Here is the link.
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Posted: 22 June 2007 07:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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KimberlyAnn:
I never heard about Michael Stipe or Obama, but I did hear that Alice Cooper was a Mormon.  I wonder if there's any truth to that one?  LOL!

KA


Naaaah. Everybody knows he's really Billy Mumy from Lost In Space!!
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Posted: 22 June 2007 07:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
tibber
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There was the rumor that Marylin Manson's dad was a SP, and that one concert Marylin wore his dad's Gs on stage.  Or was that Alice Cooper?  One of those guys was LDS, or has LDS ties somewhere. 
Wikipedia just confirmed that Alice Cooper, born Vincent Furnier to a parents Ether Moroni (nothing mormon about that, is there?) and Ella Mae, had a grandfather who was an apostle of the church of jesus christ, the bickertonites, not the mainstream mormons. 
I'm pretty sure Marylin Manson has no affiliation with mormonism other than tearing a book of mormon up while opening a NIN concert in SLC. 
I tried to start a rumor that Micheal Jordan was taking discussions during my mission.  Everyone we told in my district believed it, but it never got any further than that. 
It was also a big deal that Mike Holmgren was LDS (currently head coach of the SeaHawks previously offensive coach for the Packers ) and all the missionaries and local wards in Green-bay were expecting Brett Favre to show up at church but it never happened.
And there was also the rumor that Steve Martin joined the church and that he showed Jay Leno his CTR ring on the Tonight Show.  I think it would be incredible tacky for steve Martin to wear a CTR ring, even if he had converted to mormonism, which he didn't.
TB


   


Posted: 22 June 2007 08:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
Zim
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tbiter:There was the rumor that Marylin Manson's dad was a SP, and that one concert Marylin wore his dad's Gs on stage.  Or was that Alice Cooper?  One of those guys was LDS, or has LDS ties somewhere. 
Wikipedia just confirmed that Alice Cooper, born Vincent Furnier to a parents Ether Moroni (nothing mormon about that, is there?) and Ella Mae, had a grandfather who was an apostle of the church of jesus christ, the bickertonites, not the mainstream mormons.

That's right, Alice's dad was part of a mormon splinter group, but left and became a Presbyterian minister. Alice is now a born again, but still likes to rock and roll. 

   


Posted: 22 June 2007 10:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Annie Lennox of the Eurythmics was a Mormon (j/k).  She wrote Missionary Man for all the mishies.  
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Posted: 23 June 2007 12:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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I heard the whole Marilyn Mansen connection, too.  Oh, and Jewel.  Her dad was LDS, but she was raised by her mom.
I always heard that Tal Bachman was a mormon, but then the evil, sinful world of rock n' roll corrupted him and he fell away with such pretences as "The BOM is false" and "Joseph Smith lied" but of course, it was only so he could drink and party on his path to stardom.....
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Posted: 23 June 2007 12:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Is there any truth to the rumors that Yoda was patterned after Pres. Benson or Kimball-- one of those old guys...?
I am probably dumb for even asking-- but, I have heard it soooo many times-- I have to put it out there.
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Posted: 23 June 2007 01:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Susan D.
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snickersprincess:Is there any truth to the rumors that Yoda was patterned after Pres. Benson or Kimball-- one of those old guys...?
I am probably dumb for even asking-- but, I have heard it soooo many times-- I have to put it out there.

Yeah, I heard it was SWK they tried to mimic with Yoda.  The story I heard is that they wanted to find a voice of someone seen as a "wise leader" and they liked SWK's voice. 
Do local FPR's count?  When the Dallas temple was being built I heard (from the then-husband who was in a so-called leadership position to know) that someone saw some man standing at the base of the concrete fencing around the grounds after hours.  They wondered what he was doing there and then they saw him leap up, facing forward, (several feet, I think about 9) and sit on that fence!  Wow, what an acrobat.  They were saying it was one of the 3 Nephites or an angel.  Whatever. 


   


Posted: 23 June 2007 01:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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I remembered hearing an interview with Alice Cooper not too long ago on NPR. 
Hear it here...
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10231271
Somewhere near the beginning, he mentions that his dad was a christian pastor. 
About 3/4 of the way in, interviewer Terry Gross brings up that his grandfather was the head of his church.  Alice says yes, it was the Church of Jesus Christ, and Terry asks "mormon?" and he says no, there's no LDS at the end of the name of the church. 
But the fact that she asked that, and the tone of his voice in his answer, and Zim's comment (above) made me wonder.
Wikipedia says this...

Vincent Furnier was born in Detroit, Michigan to Ether Moroni Furnier and Ella Mae McCart. His grandfather, Thurman Sylvester Furnier, was an Apostle of The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite). Vincent's father was an Elder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Cooper

Bickertonites are indeed a BoM believing "restoration" church.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ
IMO Alice was being a little disingenous with the way he replied, trying to make it seem that they were mainstream christians of some kind. 

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Posted: 23 June 2007 03:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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elder_nomo:
I remembered hearing an interview with Alice Cooper not too long ago on NPR. 
Hear it here...
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10231271
Somewhere near the beginning, he mentions that his dad was a christian pastor. 
About 3/4 of the way in, interviewer Terry Gross brings up that his grandfather was the head of his church.  Alice says yes, it was the Church of Jesus Christ, and Terry asks "mormon?" and he says no, there's no LDS at the end of the name of the church. 
But the fact that she asked that, and the tone of his voice in his answer, and Zim's comment (above) made me wonder.
Wikipedia says this...

Vincent Furnier was born in Detroit, Michigan to Ether Moroni Furnier and Ella Mae McCart. His grandfather, Thurman Sylvester Furnier, was an Apostle of The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite). Vincent's father was an Elder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Cooper

Bickertonites are indeed a BoM believing "restoration" church.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ
IMO Alice was being a little disingenous with the way he replied, trying to make it seem that they were mainstream christians of some kind. 



Wow!  There was something to the Alice Cooper rumors!  Weird.  Who woulda thunk...

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Posted: 23 June 2007 12:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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More on Alice: He is the President of the Board of Directors for the Solid Rock Foundation, a Christian outreach group for teens: http://www.srfrock.org/about.html
I saw Alice perform a few years ago in LA. It was a short set in the KLOS Radio parking lot, but holy smoke. The man's still got it.
Oh, and Rick Schroeder (Silver Spoons, NYPD Blue and recently 24) is a mormon convert of just a few years. He married a mormon girl. I heard him talk about it on the Howard Stern Show. 

   


            
 
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I’m shocked, Adolph Hitler was baptized in proxy.  
Posted: 12 February 2007 08:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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I just finished a book by Richard Abanes called Inside Today's Mormonism and it is well documented with LDS journals, official church publications etc, and it claims Adolph Hitler was baptized in proxy in 1993 and so was his mistress Ava Braun.  She was sealed to him as well.  I checked out this claim on familysearch.org, thinking surely this church run site would not disclose this information on line, even if it were true, but it is there and true. 
 
In fact, the book claims by 1993 380,000 Jewish Holocaust victims had been baptized in proxy by the LDS church.  A holocaust victims family survivors group negotiated for the church to remove all names of these victims and they agreed to do this, avoiding legal action.  They still have not removed these names and claim it would be an impossible task.  The group claims if it was possible to put them in, they should be able to remove them.  The church continues to add more names from public domain records about the Holocaust, so these are not names submitted by family members who are LDS. 
 
What a total insult to these families, even if the baptism means anything to god or not, it is just wrong.  How does anyone else react to this?  Do people here know this info?  I know my whole family has also been baptized in proxy because a crazy aunt on my grandmothers side joined the church and gave our ancestry back to the 1800's.  Not long after my grandfather died, his name appeared at familysearch.org.  They wasted no time on him.  My husband's sister converted so on his side they did the same. 
 
It seems like such an invasion of privacy and arrogant to me.
pnut


   


Posted: 12 February 2007 09:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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pnut:
It seems like such an invasion of privacy and arrogant to me.

 
Yeah, I'd say it's pretty arrogant of them! Dishonest too if they are saying that they're removing names but aren't. Of course you know, they're under obligation to follow the prophet's example. 
 
That reminds me. Last week I read an article about Joseph Smith and his lying about his polygamous relationships. An apologist for the Church said he wasn't lying, but was more like a form of "civil disobedience."  
 
Hey! I just got an idea! Let's list all the words Mormons use to soften what is really going on. Here's some starters:
 
Lying to a judge = civil disobedience 
Altering records = correlating records
Lying = telling the faith promoting version
Polygamous marriage = priesthood marriage (from Rough Stone Rolling)
Damn = dang 
 
 
Any others??
 
 
 
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Posted: 12 February 2007 09:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Jeff
 
 
Include any talk given by Paul Dunn that included war stories. 
 
 
 
Pnut
 
 
I have had conversations with a Jewish man who finds the baptism of dead Jewish people very offensive.  That many were holocaust victims shows just how careless the morg can be.  
 
 
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Posted: 12 February 2007 10:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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I also read an article about Joseph Smith practicing polygamy in secrecy.  He only told Oliver Cowdrey about it as he believed this might affect his ability to attract converts if he was living in such a non conventional manner.   This article basically told about how even though it was a "divinely inspired practice", it was not until they had enough followers to feel secure for Brigham Young teach polygamy to the members. 
 
I have asked members and missionaries about polygamy and they are quick to tell you that even though B.Y. taught this practice, it not official "church doctrine" and that all current teachings of the most current prophet is what god is asking of his people today.  I am thinking to myself.......Just try to forget all the whacky "divinely inspired" beliefs and practices of those past prophets with their whacky little ideas.  Those don't count anymore.  Try not to think about that too much.  The god of today must be much more saavy in marketing churches in more attractive packages. 


   


Posted: 12 February 2007 11:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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pnut:
How does anyone else react to this?  Do people here know this info? 
 
pnut

Yup, and we have a Peep Stone story to prove it!
 
Jewish Ordinances to be Undone in Two Week Period.
 
Not to defend the practice of proxy baptism or other ordinances, but I DO believe that by and large, the members who are doing the work believe they are doing a vital act of compassionate service to their ancestry, and the millions who died without hearing the gospel.  When the lists of Holocaust victims were brought to the temple, I would guess that the people doing the proxy work believed they were participating in an historical act of love that would help compensate for the act of hate that caused them to be victims in the first place.  It never occurs to the people doing the proxy work that what they are doing is insensitive, because they believe with all their heart (because they've been told since they were children) that the dead person is waiting anxiously for their work to be done.  They often believe they "feel the presence of the dead" with them in the temple (weird, I know).  Now that they have "crossed to the other side," the good people of this earth finally understand the need for those ordinances, and gratefully await them.
 
I don't harbor ill feelings for the people who work so hard in the exercise of their faith on behalf of millions of others.  I couldn't care less if a later descendent of mine took my name through the temple, even though (by then) I would have long since been stricken from the church records.  I believe in my heart that such an act has NO consequence in the eternal scheme of things, but that it would mean something to the person who did it. 
 
Now, I must admit that I have always been a little disturbed that Adolph Hitler was baptized in proxy, and sealed to his mistress.  Still, the argument in favor of that act is not one of insensitivity to the millions who died because of him.  Rather, the argument says, "It is God's place and God's place alone to judge all men.  For us, we are required to forgive, and if there is the opportunity to provide saving ordinances that might bring one of the worst dictators of all time around to fight for God's army, then who are we to say 'we don't want to?'  If Adolph refuses to accept those ordinances, it is nothing more than one more nail in his coffin."
 
Hell, I don't know what's right in these situations.  That's why I just write the satire and let other people figure out the hard stuff... 
 
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Posted: 13 February 2007 01:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Philosophically this is interesting (well to me anyway)!
 
Is it any more offensive for Mormons to do Temple work for Holocaust victims than for anyone else? Yes, I too tend to react stronger, but can see no rational reason for such a response. I see the assumption than someone (dead) wants to join their deceitful religion as problematic, but assuming to 'save' people who died in one of the most infamous genocides of modernity does up the anti a bit.
 
On the subject of good old Adolf, well that is a different issue.
 
Surely if Hitler was alive to have stood trial before the Nuremberg Trials, he would have been found guilty 6 million times over of murder, making him guilty under civil and even Mormondom's rules of an extreme crime and sin respectively.
 
So how in God's name do they rationalise performing a baptism in his name? Has MoInc officialdom ever rationalised their decision? Surely no one is arguing he 'slipped through'! Maybe there is an Arian supremacist branch of the Church in Germany, and they were able to 'slip' him and his frauline through, believing he should be up there in Mo-in-Heaven leadership with Smokin' Joe! 
 
Daryl 
 
PS: Their decision to seal him to Eva Braun is interesting, given they were only married days before they suicided. What about the other women he bonked? How about the Jewish actress, who potentially became an embarrasment, who just happened to leap from the window of a multi-story building? How about the 2nd cousin he was involved with who suicided? 
 
Ah...... Nothing quite like the magic of God's Holy Institution of Marriage!!! 
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Posted: 13 February 2007 01:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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I do understand that, according to the faith, they are doing what they think god has called them to do and  they are acting in compassion for the victims.  It seems that any half way intelligent person would understand that to baptize holocaust victims into a christian faith to give them a "chance" for salvation would most likely be met with painful outrage by the victims families.  It is like "auto pilot" and they go ahead and do things they know will cause outrage and hurt because of their god given authority and purpose.  I realize it is all within the confines of the beliefs.
 
Now, if I found out my church was performing a baptism ceremony for Adolph Hitler and his mistress, I would never return.  I am not saying that I believe that people cannot be forgiven of sin, I think they need to seek and repent on their own during their lifetime.  I guess that is where LDS baptism differs from my own protestant beliefs of baptism, which I've been taught is an outward sign of an already inward change and not a necessary rite or ritual in order to considered a Christian.  I believe that if he didn't ask for forgiveness before his life ended, then really it is too late.   If he didn't end up in "outer darkness" then not too many will.
 
But I do understand what you are talking about.  How would you like to be the temple worker who was asked to stand in for that man/monster?   I'd run for the hills and hand them back my temple recommend on my way out the door.


   


Posted: 13 February 2007 07:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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  If he didn't end up in "outer darkness" then not too many will.
 
 
 
 
Well I think outer darkness is reserved for those who once had a conviction of the faith and then " turned away altogether therefrom".  Killing six million will only get you down to the Telestial Kingdom.     A place, according to Joseph Smith. we would kill ourselves to get to if we could experience it for a moment.
 
 
This is, of course, mormonism at it's very best theologically.
 
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Posted: 13 February 2007 08:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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free thinker:
  If he didn't end up in "outer darkness" then not too many will.




Well I think outer darkness is reserved for those who once had a conviction of the faith and then " turned away altogether therefrom".  <snip>

ft


Oh... you mean it'll be just us then. 


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Posted: 13 February 2007 08:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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OK Jeff, how about this one; gaaawd daayam!!! = Oh, My Heck!!!
 
I'm with P_M, yea what he said, and keep in mind that they need a lot of names to keep all these well intentioned TBM's busy while doing their duty in the temple of gawd.  They are already recycling to the max and will do anything they can (including making up names?) to keep the sessions going.
 
"Brother Hamar , we set you apart and bestow upon you all the rights powers and priveleges that go with this calling as a name creator for the church of Jes....."
 
Oh my heck!!! 
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Posted: 13 February 2007 09:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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pnut:
How would you like to be the temple worker who was asked to stand in for that man/monster?   I'd run for the hills and hand them back my temple recommend on my way out the door.

Goodness, but that does give one pause, doesn't it?  (Dogzilla "pause", not "paws.")  Truly, I cannot imagine taking the name of Adolph Hitler through the temple and feeling as if you've done "the Lord's work" any more than if you'd taken Satan himself.  That HAD to be a weird feeling.
 
On the other hand, I would bet my bottom dollar that the person who did the work was the same person who submitted the name.  It was probably some zealot who wanted to be doing the work for someone famous, and so righteous that they could even do the work for someone whose the exact opposite.  I would bet it was someone with a bit of a Jesus complex, i.e. someone so righteous that they, like Jesus, would be willing to submit themselves beneath all things that they might conquer all things.  I'm just guessing, but I've known a Mormon or two who think just that way.  
 
Yea and verily...
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Posted: 13 February 2007 10:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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pnut:
.....
 I guess that is where LDS baptism differs from my own protestant beliefs of baptism, which I've been taught is an outward sign of an already inward change and not a necessary rite or ritual in order to considered a Christian. 
.....

I am not a Christian myself, but I love your description of what baptism means to you.  It's so NOT the mormon way, where it's all about form and nothing about substance. 
 
Hey Dogzilla, is pepper jelly HOT?  Maybe it will warm us up... I hear it's a might chilly in outer darkness.  I guess I'll be going there.  I didn't murder millions of people, but I did decide that a warm fuzzy feeling I once had was nothing more than a warm fuzzy feeling. 
That's fair. 
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Posted: 13 February 2007 10:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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elder_nomo:

Hey Dogzilla, is pepper jelly HOT?  Maybe it will warm us up... I hear it's a might chilly in outer darkness.  I guess I'll be going there.  I didn't murder millions of people, but I did decide that a warm fuzzy feeling I once had was nothing more than a warm fuzzy feeling. 
That's fair. 


"It BUUUURRRRNNNSSS..."
-- Reagan MacNeil, The Exorcist



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Posted: 13 February 2007 10:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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elder_nomo:
Hey Dogzilla, is pepper jelly HOT?  Maybe it will warm us up... I hear it's a might chilly in outer darkness.  I guess I'll be going there. 

 
::Peter_Mary checks thermometer::
 
It's cold, alright, but not as cold as it's been, here in Outer Darkness.  I have recently been out stomping around in the mountains of Outer Darkness when it was -35o F.  It's a bit fairer today, but a little pepper jelly is always a welcome respite from the cold.
 
I've tried Dogzilla's pepper jelly--hell, I designed the LABEL for Dogzilla's pepper jelly--and it is nice and warm.  The perfect condiment for Outer Darkness.
 
And that's today's weather report from the nether reaches of God's Kingdom.  
 
::Runs back inside because its FREEZING::
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Posted: 14 February 2007 02:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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peter mary
 
I laughed so hard after reading the article about Undoing the doings..... Is that for real?  Are they really going to physically try to walk backwards and dunk backwards, and use a car wash blower?  This reminds me of leading up to some type of a good polish joke. 
 
Why don't they just say some mormonese ...
 
Verily, verily I say unto you,
 
Thou hath been disendowed and all
 
the blessings whereas bestowed onto you have now
 
been thus unbestowed and you are now pronounced
 
once again "unclean" in the eyes of our great and loving creator,
 
heavenly father.... amen. 
 
skip the backwards car wash and backwards washing and oil rubbing.
 
And.... I can't believe they then say that the victims families know darn good and well that this ordinance "works" and is "valid" and proof is their obvious outrage.  Not that that baptizing murdered Jewish people is not enough the entice outrage. 
 
When does the arrogance end?  Obviously in this case it doesn't... it just gets worse. 
Why would I think that the church spokesperson would make an apology to the families and say it was done out of compassion. according to their beliefs and not intended to cause harm.  You would think that they would just remove the names and try to at least try to appear to have some sensitivity.
 
 
 


   


Posted: 14 February 2007 02:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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I laughed so hard after reading the article about Undoing the doings..... Is that for real? 
 
 
 
 
pnut
 
 
That is in our Peepstone Magazine found in the Our Library section above. You will find many fabulous articles there created by our quite imaginative crew here. It is sarcastic but some of it comes very close to what you would find in the regular day to day thinking of many mormons.
 
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Posted: 14 February 2007 04:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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So the article is just a sarcastic lampoon, or is it based on fact at all?  I was thinking the vertigo and backwards ritual had to be crossing into the realm of ridiculous, however it may be close to past history.  I was laughing out loud reading thinking it just couldn't be true. 
p


   


Posted: 14 February 2007 04:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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pnut:
So the article is just a sarcastic lampoon, or is it based on fact at all?  I was thinking the vertigo and backwards ritual had to be crossing into the realm of ridiculous, however it may be close to past history.  I was laughing out loud reading thinking it just couldn't be true. 
p

Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction, but alas, in this case, it was purely fiction based only on the fact that the Church was having to eat crow about failing to erase all those Jewish ordinances.
 
While the Peepstone is satirical and fictional, all of it has a kernal of truth.  That's what makes it so darn fun! 
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Posted: 04 February 2011 02:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Have been thinking recently of all the prominent people, when I was active, that the Mormon Church would use to espose it's teachings (Steve Young (played football on Sundays), Bill Marriott (porn in hotels), Orin Hatch, etc.).
 
Are there prominent/famous people who were Mormons that left the Mormon Church (and I'm not talking Elvis or Ozzie Osbourne, etc.) in the past 30 years or so?


   


Posted: 04 February 2011 03:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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There are quite a few younger celebrities who were raised in the church but are no longer practicing, such as Ryan Gosling (actor), Amy Adams (actress), Katherine Heigl (actress), Win Butler (musician, The Arcade Fire), Eliza Dushku (actress),  etc.
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Posted: 04 February 2011 03:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Yes.

Why does it matter?  Mos get all excited when celebrities join because it validates them and their delusion.  Does it really matter still when you use facts to leave?  Celebrities or not, the facts remain: Moism is a scam and a cult.
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Posted: 04 February 2011 05:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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^^^What they said. I agree with the fact that there are a LOT of post-Mo celebrities right now too; like the ones listed.
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Posted: 04 February 2011 05:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Don't forget Mr. Deity himself, Brian Keith Dalton!

http://www.mrdeity.com/






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Posted: 04 February 2011 07:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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don't forget our own tal bachman
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Posted: 04 February 2011 11:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Jesus Smith:
Yes.
 
Why does it matter? 
 
 
Because I'm interested in knowing that there are others who are going through the same thing I am doing/did.
 
And, yes, when I was a member I was one of those that would drop names.
 
Please don't flame me for this . . .


   


Posted: 04 February 2011 01:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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AKPilot:
Jesus Smith:
Yes.
 
Why does it matter? 
 
 
Because I'm interested in knowing that there are others who are going through the same thing I am doing/did.
 
And, yes, when I was a member I was one of those that would drop names.
 
Please don't flame me for this . . .

 I like to hear about famous ex-mormons too.  It sustains my confirmation bias. 

Here is a list form a random website-

Famous Ex Mormons

Richard Dutcher-Directed God's Army

There might be others.  I think that whenever a high profile person leaves the mormon church it makes me feel vindicated because the mormon church does the same thing.  They love their mormon celebrities because it validates their belief system.
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Posted: 04 February 2011 03:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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AKPilot:
Jesus Smith:
Yes.
 
Why does it matter? 
 
 
Because I'm interested in knowing that there are others who are going through the same thing I am doing/did.
 
And, yes, when I was a member I was one of those that would drop names.
 
Please don't flame me for this . . .

 I wasn't flaming you.  I was just making a point.  Perhaps too directly at your expense.  But carry on.  It is interesting even if proves nothing.
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Posted: 04 February 2011 03:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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If any of ye lack wisdom, let him ask of ... wikipedia!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_Latter_Day_Saints
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Posted: 04 February 2011 05:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Posted: 04 February 2011 08:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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AKPilot:
Jesus Smith:
Yes.
 
Why does it matter? 
 
 
Because I'm interested in knowing that there are others who are going through the same thing I am doing/did.
 
And, yes, when I was a member I was one of those that would drop names.
 
Please don't flame me for this . . .
 
 I think it's interesting too. I've wondered how long Gladys Knight will last in the church after she learns more about it.
 
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Posted: 04 February 2011 08:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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I think it's an interesting topic, too.
 
I've read some things about Brandon Flowers, lead singer of the Killers.  I know he's Mormon, but is he stil active?  I think there are some Brandon Flowers worshippers on here...
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Posted: 04 February 2011 09:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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Antiputz:
If any of ye lack wisdom, let him ask of ... wikipedia!
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_Latter_Day_Saints 
 
That's an interesting list.  I didn't realize that Jewel used to be Mormon.  And Butch Cassidy was Mormon and ex'd.  
 
I read an interview of Katherine Heigl recently where she said that she may go back to the church now that she's a mother.  I find that very sad.
 
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Posted: 04 February 2011 09:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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This is interesting and has prompted another thought.
 
I know, from personal experience, the person's 'mission' status was occasionally used in swaying a decision on a calling (as many know returned missionary status is on a membership record; available to local leaders), depending on the person (Bishop/Stake Pres.).
 
I'd be interested in seeing how celebrity status is calculated into some of those individual's decisions?
 
And why not for all people?  As some have pointed out, which is a crux of mine, why can't people serve people in their home area and get the same 'status' afforded to them.  And, yes, I know about Stake Missionaries.
 
Why is it, mission status, even on a member's records?  What does it matter?
 
I could never figure it out, unless someone was just plain being nosey.
 


   


Posted: 04 February 2011 10:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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AKPilot:
 
This is interesting and has prompted another thought.
 
I know, from personal experience, the person's 'mission' status was occasionally used in swaying a decision on a calling (as many know returned missionary status is on a membership record; available to local leaders), depending on the person (Bishop/Stake Pres.).
 
I'd be interested in seeing how celebrity status is calculated into some of those individual's decisions?
 
And why not for all people?  As some have pointed out, which is a crux of mine, why can't people serve people in their home area and get the same 'status' afforded to them.  And, yes, I know about Stake Missionaries.
 
Why is it, mission status, even on a member's records?  What does it matter?
 
I could never figure it out, unless someone was just plain being nosey.
 
 
Yes, serving a mission is some sort of weird status symbol in TSCC.  And God forbid someone gets sent home from their mission (for whatever reason)!!  Simply put, Mormons are very, very judgmental people.
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Posted: 04 February 2011 10:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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Add to that list Randy Bachman (Tal's father) of BTO and the Guess Who, and Randy's second wife, Denise McCann (she had a disco hit in the 70s called Tattoo Man). Denise has resigned, but I don't think Randy has. He's just let it go.

Brandon Flowers still identifies himself as a mormon.

Also, Mick Ronson, who played guitar in later incarnations of Mott the Hoople and in David Bowie's band.  Mick died a few years back and although he was a member, he was disaffected.

And one Antiputz, who toils in obscurity playing guitar in a band. 
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Posted: 04 February 2011 11:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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Antiputz:
Add to that list Randy Bachman (Tal's father) of BTO and the Guess Who, and Randy's second wife, Denise McCann (she had a disco hit in the 70s called Tattoo Man). Denise has resigned, but I don't think Randy has. He's just let it go.

Brandon Flowers still identifies himself as a mormon.
 
Also, Mick Ronson, who played guitar in later incarnations of Mott the Hoople and in David Bowie's band.  Mick died a few years back and although he was a member, he was disaffected.
 
And one Antiputz, who toils in obscurity playing guitar in a band.  
 
 I think we can also add Aaron Eckhart to the list, at least according to his wikipedia entry.  I have a strong testimony of Harvey Dent.


   


            
 
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Thirty years ago (black revelation day) was the scarriest day of my life  
Posted: 08 June 2008 09:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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I was sitting in a hangar at Norton Air Force Base in California, getting ready to send my (now-ex)hubby to Okinawa.  I was going to follow in a few months because he was on an unaccompanied tour and had to get some things arranged before I could come.
 
I had gone to a corner to nurse my 3-month-old baby (back when you had to reach under your shirt to unzip the one-piecers in order to nurse) Ugh!  So while hiding out and not really paying attention to the radio overhead, all of the sudden I heard the words "Spencer W. Kimball" on the news report.  I tried to hear the rest but couldn't make it out.  I assumed the prophet must have died for it to be on the news in California.  I went and found hubby and told him.  It was another reason to be bummed that day.
 
So I put hubby on the plane and drove home (to my parents house where I was staying in the interim) crying about both situations.  When I drove in, my mother came running out, "Did you hear the news???"  I said, "Well, I assume the prophet died."  She said, "What?  No!  The blacks received the priesthood!"
 
I was frozen and sick and was shaking.  Our Institute teacher had always said the blacks would receive the priesthood immediately prior to the coming of the Lord.  I had just put my hubby on a plane overseas and would never see him again because the millenium would come before I could get there.  I went to my bedroom and just sobbed and shook.
 
The next day the church was abuzz with the news.  We couldn't even have real services.  I heard some pretty kooky things.  My former FIL, who was the world's biggest bigot was getting laughs by telling everyone "Yeah, I'll baptize them all.  I'll just forget to bring them up!"  Other people were talking about how weird it would be to see a black in the temple or see them blessing the sacrament.  Several were sure we needed to make sure we had our food supply and start repenting...fast!
 
Well, 30 years later--I'm still here.  No second coming.  I now know about the changes in the law that would have stripped the so-called church of its tax-exempt status if they continued to discriminate.  Hubby is long gone and it's a pleasure being in life without him. 
 
But I'll never forget that day nor the fear of it.  Oh well, chalk it up to the list of things I lived in fear of for 45 years and celebrate that I no longer have to live scared.


   


Posted: 08 June 2008 09:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Hello85
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I'm sure all the black people that day were all: "REJOICE!  REJOICE!  Massa' say we getun' duh prieshood!  Call me a Mishionary"
 
 
Not! 
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Posted: 08 June 2008 09:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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SealMeToElvis
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Frank:
I'm sure all the black people that day were all: "REJOICE!  REJOICE!  Massa' say we getun' duh prieshood!  Call me a Mishionary"
 
 
Not!
 
LOL!
 
We were certainly led to believe that's what they were shouting.  Funny, I never heard anyone say, "Don't worry about it... in 30 years we won't even have so much as one black G.A."


   


Posted: 08 June 2008 09:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
hartlyn
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I remember thinking, "about effing time."  It was before I knew anything about BY's racism, or JS's having already ordained a black man (his name's on the tip of my fingers, but I can't quite remember it right now).  I even tried to rationalize that in 1800's America the members of the church probably wouldn't have "accepted" a black bishop, but the other voice in my head kept saying that if discrimination ever happened in "God's true church," can it really be "God's true church?"
 
What a relief not to have to defend or rationalize any of this crAp anymore.  And how sorry I am for those who continue to do so day after day.
 
hartlyn
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Posted: 09 June 2008 02:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Evergreen
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I picked up a SL Tribune today because the front page story was on "Blacks in the Mormon Church."  (Yes, folks, I DID go to the store on the Sabbath--not just any store, but a convenience store to get coffee.  I am such a rebel these days).  It was a pretty okay article and did use the words, "racist past" in reference to the MORG.  What was astounding to me, though, was the "case studies" on five black members and how they dealt with things.  (Rather, how they didn't in most cases). 
 
I had my 89 year old grandma with me (she needed her coffee fix, too), and when she saw the newspaper she kind of smiled and said, "I remember having to teach a lesson to the primary children when I was in my teens that said the black people bore the mark of Cain...that they were born black because of their choices before coming to earth, and that you were not to form close friendships with them...the black skin was a warning to the Godly," and I remember thinking, "This is bullshit." 
 
I love my grandma!


   


Posted: 09 June 2008 03:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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blytheaar
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I remember it too, though I was a little girl at the time. I remember my parents talking about it with my (inactive) uncle. No racist comments from their quarter, thank God. More like the "About damn time" response.


   


Posted: 09 June 2008 03:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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camhead
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hartlyn:
... JS's having already ordained a black man (his name's on the tip of my fingers, but I can't quite remember it right now).
 
 Elijah Abel, I believe.
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Posted: 09 June 2008 03:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
magi
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I was working in an LDS Hospital when it happened. I remember the anger in the lunchroom from the TBMs when they discussed it. One woman cried. Another woman said she better not see any Blacks in her church or she would get up and leave.
 
 


   


Posted: 09 June 2008 04:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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gingerbreadapron
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I was too young when this announcement was made to remember anything about it.  I've often wondered what the general reactions were and what the converations were like the following Sunday at church.  I didn't realize that it was taught that it would happen right before the Second Coming, but I guess that doesn't surprise me very much either.   I think as long as there has been Seminary and Instititute, those teachers have been preaching wham and bam about the Second Coming (and even all that didn't seem to be able to wake the sleeping students, all it did was scare the bejeebers out of the ones, like me, who were trying to take it all so seriously).
 
What I don't understand is the official position of the church on this.  Do they disavow all the comments made by Brigham Young, etc.?  I have never heard anything directly spoken about this.


   


Posted: 09 June 2008 05:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Hiker Daddy
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I was a kid when they announced the ‘revelation’ allowing Blacks to have the priesthood but I was old enough to have been taught it meant apocalypse was nigh.  I am actually quite surprised by how many Black people can forgive the church for it.  They church has never apologized or admitted it was wrong in the first place.  I guess 130 years of being denied the priesthood in an insignificant church is nothing compared to some of the other aspects of the African American experience.  Gladys Knight still can’t hold the priesthood.
 
Millions of Mormon women, including Gladys Knight, accept subservient roles in the church.  I am amazed at what people will tolerate and support. 
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Posted: 09 June 2008 06:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
Hello85
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I think the whole thing is extremely arrogant of Mormons.  I bet you the reality of that day, most black Americans when eagerly told about the revelation said: "Who the @&%@ is Joseph Smith?"


   


Posted: 09 June 2008 06:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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SealMeToElvis
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Frank:
I think the whole thing is extremely arrogant of Mormons.  I bet you the reality of that day, most black Americans when eagerly told about the revelation said: "Who the @&%@ is Joseph Smith?"
 
Good point.
 
I grew up thinking all Black people were dying to get into the church and have the full Priesthood blessings.  The reason they said nasty things about the church is because they truly envied us.
 
I now live in Memphis--a predominately Black city (at least in the city limits).  I work with MANY blacks--some very highly educated, some not.  However, I've NEVER come across one who knows that there was a time blacks couldn't be full members of the Mormon church--even ones my age or older.  Frankly, they just didn't give a damn.  They just looked at Mormonism as another in a long line of racist cults, not as a real religion.


   


Posted: 10 June 2008 06:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Jammerwoch
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When I was in Junior Sunday School (around 1954) our teacher during the course of her lesson showed us a stock picture of Jesus, surrounded by children.  Some of the children were black, some other colors, although most were white.  The teacher was embarrassed at having to explain to us 4 and 5 year-olds why Jesus would be hanging out with black children, so she told us that of course, Jesus loved the white children more than he did the black.  My mother happened to be present, and this is one incident that convinced my parents to leave South Carolina.
 
The priesthood ban was just one manifestation of a virulent racism that pervaded the Church and most of its members.  We do so love to feel superior to others.
 
PS  In case any were wondering how I suddenly got such a great memory, the above story is one my mother told me years later. 
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Posted: 11 June 2008 12:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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dave (e_nomo)
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I ran across this link on RfM
http://www.newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/unity-and-gratitude-emphasized-at-30th-anniversary-of-priesthood-revelation 
 
Apparently the church had a big whoop-de-doo to celebrate the fact that their racist God changed his mind 30 years ago, and gave someone a "revelation" to solve a problem that should never have existed in the first place. 
The spin, backtracking and revisionism are astounding.  
 
I've heard that bit too, that the members wouldn't have been "ready" for a black bishop back then.   What utter BS.   They weren't exactly ready for polygamy either, but somehow *that* was important enough to be commanded. 
 
SealMe, that's quite a story.  Thanks for sharing it. 
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Posted: 11 June 2008 06:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Mae
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I was a kid when this happened and I remember that it was when my parents decided to actually start their food storage. My dad was not too impressed, but my mom was thrilled. I remember a family conversation in which my dad cut everyone off, because the "profit said it and that's that." I don't remember anyone talking about it. We did not question authority. Hell, we didn't question anything. The weird thing is that a while back there was a lesson in RS/PH about this and EVERYONE was talking about how it was the most wonderful thing that ever happened and it was SUCH a blessing, we were SO happy, blah blah blah....the fake grins were never faker than that day.
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Posted: 20 May 2009 04:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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MikeUtah
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I stumbled across this facebook group called "Why yes, I am Mormon, thanks" that has an interesting approach to their group description.  You can find the group here.
 
Here are some of the funny one liners I laughed at (okay, I posted most of them because they are all so :
 
You most likely know one. Whether you're aware of it or not.
Our real name is The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints. Which means we're Christian :)
We don't drink.
We don't smoke.
We don't drink coffee... and if you see one of us doing that, slap them and say "NO!"
We don't have sex before marriage.
We have more fun playing chutes and ladders than spin the bottle.
Not all of us have been Mormon our whole lives...
Our church session is 3 hours long and we love it.
The mormon missionaries are the two coolest guys ever. Be nice to them ;P
It's true. We make the best green jello salad and casseroles you've ever tasted.
We think mormon jokes are funny.
We don't date till we're sixteen.
We know that groups dates are more fun anyway.
We know that the most fun dates - don't cost money.
We give talks in church in front of 150-300 people. how's that for public speaking?
We are stubborn as heck. We don't give in to peer pressure.
We celebrate holidays by throwing either a BBque or a dinner.
Almost every mormon girl can play the piano.
We don't watch R-rated movies.
We dress modestly. Skirts/shorts to the knee, shirts with sleeves, one-piece bathing suits... that type of thing. These standards are never supposed to be relaxed... EVEN FOR PROM.
We CAN use technology.
We CAN eat fast-food.
We DON'T practice polygamy.
If we ask you to go to an activity, it's NOT a conspiracy thing where we're trying to convert you. It means we have fun and we want to share that with you. Likely the church won't even really be mentioned while you're there.
If we ask you to go to church, it's because we care enough about you to want to share with you what we know and the blessings we've received.
If we give you a Book of Mormon, we're giving you the most precious gift we have. It may not have the same meaning to you at first. That book has changed lives for the better and when we see you going through hard times, we want to help. This is the best way we know of helping you. So don't be offended. Even if you don't want it, know that we care about you THAT much.
If you turn us down, it's ok.
If you think we're pushing you, tell us to knock it off! We'll stop.
If you ask us what we believe, only for the sake of arguing, we won't tell you. It's pointless to engage on that when you're not going to open your mind and listen.
Asking you to go to church, an activity, or giving you a Book of Mormon is incredibly hard. It's like a guy asking out his crush. Some of us are more comfortable in doing that than others. It's hard. So if we do it, be NICE! :)
We don't care what you wear, what you look like, as long as you come! We're happy to see you!
The guy who owns the Marriot Hotels is Mormon.
Steve Martin is NOT mormon just because he did Cheaper by the Dozen.
We DO tend to have big families. The more the merrier.
The boys go on two-year missions when they turn 19. And no, they don't get to choose where they go.
RM stands for returned missionary. They make the best boyfriends and husbands, and every mormon girl wants one ^_^
If you see anyone on TV (not on the BYU channel) under the age of fifty talking about mormons, they're probably lying.
It's nearly impossible to offend us - even if you do it on purpose.
We don't use bad language and we hate hearing it from others. But if you slip up, it's not a big deal. We still love you.
People like, respect and even admire us, but are rarely interested in hearing what we believe.
Donnie and Marie? Mormons.
The Bat Commander? Mormon.
Steve Young? Mormon
Gladys Knight? Mormon
Glen Beck is Mormon too!
Not all LDS are racially white as we have many Africans, Asians, Pan-American Islanders, etc.
We're not perfect. No one is. We make mistakes. We slip. Try not to judge us by one person who is struggling.
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Posted: 20 May 2009 04:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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jackfitzzzzz
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Joined  2008-12-28
 
  
 
mikeutah:
I stumbled across this facebook group called "Why yes, I am Mormon, thanks" that has an interesting approach to their group description.  You can find the group here.
 
Here are some of the funny one liners I laughed at (okay, I posted most of them because they are all so :
 
You most likely know one. Whether you're aware of it or not.
Our real name is The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints. Which means we're Christian :)
We don't drink.
We don't smoke.
We don't drink coffee... and if you see one of us doing that, slap them and say "NO!"
We don't have sex before marriage.
We have more fun playing chutes and ladders than spin the bottle.
Not all of us have been Mormon our whole lives...
Our church session is 3 hours long and we love it.
The mormon missionaries are the two coolest guys ever. Be nice to them ;P
It's true. We make the best green jello salad and casseroles you've ever tasted.
We think mormon jokes are funny.
We don't date till we're sixteen.
We know that groups dates are more fun anyway.
We know that the most fun dates - don't cost money.
We give talks in church in front of 150-300 people. how's that for public speaking?
We are stubborn as heck. We don't give in to peer pressure.
We celebrate holidays by throwing either a BBque or a dinner.
Almost every mormon girl can play the piano.
We don't watch R-rated movies.
We dress modestly. Skirts/shorts to the knee, shirts with sleeves, one-piece bathing suits... that type of thing. These standards are never supposed to be relaxed... EVEN FOR PROM.
We CAN use technology.
We CAN eat fast-food.
We DON'T practice polygamy.
If we ask you to go to an activity, it's NOT a conspiracy thing where we're trying to convert you. It means we have fun and we want to share that with you. Likely the church won't even really be mentioned while you're there.
If we ask you to go to church, it's because we care enough about you to want to share with you what we know and the blessings we've received.
If we give you a Book of Mormon, we're giving you the most precious gift we have. It may not have the same meaning to you at first. That book has changed lives for the better and when we see you going through hard times, we want to help. This is the best way we know of helping you. So don't be offended. Even if you don't want it, know that we care about you THAT much.
If you turn us down, it's ok.
If you think we're pushing you, tell us to knock it off! We'll stop.
If you ask us what we believe, only for the sake of arguing, we won't tell you. It's pointless to engage on that when you're not going to open your mind and listen.
Asking you to go to church, an activity, or giving you a Book of Mormon is incredibly hard. It's like a guy asking out his crush. Some of us are more comfortable in doing that than others. It's hard. So if we do it, be NICE! :)
We don't care what you wear, what you look like, as long as you come! We're happy to see you!
The guy who owns the Marriot Hotels is Mormon.
Steve Martin is NOT mormon just because he did Cheaper by the Dozen.
We DO tend to have big families. The more the merrier.
The boys go on two-year missions when they turn 19. And no, they don't get to choose where they go.
RM stands for returned missionary. They make the best boyfriends and husbands, and every mormon girl wants one ^_^
If you see anyone on TV (not on the BYU channel) under the age of fifty talking about mormons, they're probably lying.
It's nearly impossible to offend us - even if you do it on purpose.
We don't use bad language and we hate hearing it from others. But if you slip up, it's not a big deal. We still love you.
People like, respect and even admire us, but are rarely interested in hearing what we believe.
Donnie and Marie? Mormons.
The Bat Commander? Mormon.
Steve Young? Mormon
Gladys Knight? Mormon
Glen Beck is Mormon too!
Not all LDS are racially white as we have many Africans, Asians, Pan-American Islanders, etc.
We're not perfect. No one is. We make mistakes. We slip. Try not to judge us by one person who is struggling.
 
I just accidentally vomited on my dog.  Sorry spot...
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Posted: 20 May 2009 04:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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jackfitzzzzz
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mikeutah:
I stumbled across this facebook group called "Why yes, I am Mormon, thanks" that has an interesting approach to their group description.  You can find the group here.
 
<snipped>
 
Here are some of the funny one liners I laughed at (okay, I posted most of them because they are all so :
 
Donnie and Marie? Mormons.
The Bat Commander? Mormon.
Steve Young? Mormon
Gladys Knight? Mormon
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Wow, this is sick...
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Posted: 20 May 2009 04:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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searcher1234
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Amazing how they try to cover-up the more disgusting aspects of the religion. "We don't practice polygamy". "If we ask you to go to an activity, it's NOT a conspiracy thing". Me thinks they doth protest too much....
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Posted: 20 May 2009 04:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Lilith
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If you ask us what we believe, only for the sake of arguing, we won't tell you. It's pointless to engage on that when you're not going to open your mind and listen.
Basically they are saying - Don't try and argue with us, because we really don't know the truth so we CAN'T argue with you, which is why we won't argue with you. It's pointless because you already have the truth and we don't, and you know it!
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I’m sorry, but if I agreed with you, we’d both be wrong! As it is I refuse to have a ‘Battle Of Wits’ with an unarmed person!


   


Posted: 20 May 2009 06:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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LessMon
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Please love everything about me that's remotely good or innocuous. I'm just that awesome!
 
Please ignore everything about me that's rude, intolerant, decieptful, ignorant, and arrogant. I make mistakes too.
 
Signed,
Happy bubbly teenage girl who gots me a computer now
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Posted: 20 May 2009 09:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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NotGaryStu
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I thought I'd write some up for ex- or post-Mormons too.  Call it divine inspiration:
 
You most likely know one. Whether you're aware of it or not.
Our real name is "I Left the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". Which means we've broken away from a cult-like religion and survived :)
Some of us drink.
Some of us smoke.
Some of us drink coffee... and if you see one of us doing that, maybe you can pull up a chair and join them!
Some of us have sex before marriage -- more importantly, we have sex in marriage, too.
We have a lot of fun playing whatever sort of games we want to, because we have that choice and are not burdened by the "laws" of our "religion".
Not all of us were Mormon our whole lives...
Our church session was 3 hours long and we are glad not to have to go back.
The Mormon missionaries are two deluded souls.  Be nice to them and try to guide them away from their unfortunate blunder.
It's true. We've found better food than green Jell-O salads and casseroles.  Some of it is even cooked with wine!  Mmmmm.
We think Mormon jokes are funny.  We think "anti-Mormon" jokes are funny, too.
We don't date until we're good and ready.
We know that groups dates can be fun, but single dates are much more intimate.
We know that the most fun dates - are the sort you make.
We give talks all over the world at conferences and over the internet.  Our voices are heard.
We can be stubborn as hell. We don't give in to the pressures of Mormonism or dogma.
We celebrate holidays like anyone normally would.
Many of us can play the piano.  Or the clarinet.  Or the saxaphone.  Or the harmonica.  Or nothing at all!  But we have many other talents, too.
We watch R-rated movies if we wanna.
We dress however we like, especially if it's flattering to us.
We CAN use technology.
We CAN eat fast-food.
We DON'T practice polygamy.  But for some, polyamory isn't bad!
If we ask you to go to an activity, it's NOT a conspiracy thing where we're trying to convert you. It means we have fun and we want to share that with you. Unless you're Mormon.  Then we might be trying to help you escape.
If we ask you to go to church, it's because we've LOST OUR MINDS.  Many of us don't even go to churches anymore.
If we give you a Book of Mormon, it's because that shit is whack and we want to give you a really good laugh.
If you turn us down, it's okay.
If you think we're pushing you, tell us to knock it off! We'll stop.
If you ask us what we believe, only for the sake of arguing, we'll tell you because friendly debate can be fun and challenging.  We might even learn something new!
We don't care what you wear, what you look like, as long as you come! We're happy to see you!
The guy who owns the Marriot Hotels is Mormon.  You can buy porn at Marriot Hotels!  But not in the Mormon temples.  Sad.
 
Some of us have big families.  Some of those families are Mormon and don't accept us because we left.  It's hard, but we endure because we have each other.
PoMo stands for Post Mormon.  We're glad to be!
If you see anyone on TV (not on the BYU channel) under the age of fifty talking about Mormons, you should listen to them and give their words serious thought.  It might even be one of us. 
It's not impossible to offend us - we're human, just like you.
We don't mind using bad language and we don't mind hearing it from others. OPEN YOUR DAMN MOUTH AND SWEAR ALL YOU FSCKING LIKE.
People like, respect, and even admire us.  We think they are pretty cool beans, too.
Not all Post-Mormons are racially white as we have many Africans, Asians, Pan-American Islanders, etc.
We're not perfect. No one is. We make mistakes. We slip. And we're glad we don't have to confess it to the bishop anymore.
 Signature
“Believe me I am not part of the mind control cult.  Whatever that is supposed to be.”
-Nathan Young
NotGaryStu: Exploring diverse warm fuzzies since 2009.


   


Posted: 20 May 2009 12:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
Avatar
searcher1234
Long Timer
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Joined  2007-11-18
 
  
 
NotGaryStu:
I thought I'd write some up for ex- or post-Mormons too.  Call it divine inspiration:
 
You most likely know one. Whether you're aware of it or not.
Our real name is "I Left the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". Which means we've broken away from a cult-like religion and survived :)
Some of us drink.
Some of us smoke.
Some of us drink coffee... and if you see one of us doing that, maybe you can pull up a chair and join them!
Some of us have sex before marriage -- more importantly, we have sex in marriage, too.
We have a lot of fun playing whatever sort of games we want to, because we have that choice and are not burdened by the "laws" of our "religion".
Not all of us were Mormon our whole lives...
Our church session was 3 hours long and we are glad not to have to go back.
The Mormon missionaries are two deluded souls.  Be nice to them and try to guide them away from their unfortunate blunder.
It's true. We've found better food than green Jell-O salads and casseroles.  Some of it is even cooked with wine!  Mmmmm.
We think Mormon jokes are funny.  We think "anti-Mormon" jokes are funny, too.
We don't date until we're good and ready.
We know that groups dates can be fun, but single dates are much more intimate.
We know that the most fun dates - are the sort you make.
We give talks all over the world at conferences and over the internet.  Our voices are heard.
We can be stubborn as hell. We don't give in to the pressures of Mormonism or dogma.
We celebrate holidays like anyone normally would.
Many of us can play the piano.  Or the clarinet.  Or the saxaphone.  Or the harmonica.  Or nothing at all!  But we have many other talents, too.
We watch R-rated movies if we wanna.
We dress however we like, especially if it's flattering to us.
We CAN use technology.
We CAN eat fast-food.
We DON'T practice polygamy.  But for some, polyamory isn't bad!
If we ask you to go to an activity, it's NOT a conspiracy thing where we're trying to convert you. It means we have fun and we want to share that with you. Unless you're Mormon.  Then we might be trying to help you escape.
If we ask you to go to church, it's because we've LOST OUR MINDS.  Many of us don't even go to churches anymore.
If we give you a Book of Mormon, it's because that shit is whack and we want to give you a really good laugh.
If you turn us down, it's okay.
If you think we're pushing you, tell us to knock it off! We'll stop.
If you ask us what we believe, only for the sake of arguing, we'll tell you because friendly debate can be fun and challenging.  We might even learn something new!
We don't care what you wear, what you look like, as long as you come! We're happy to see you!
The guy who owns the Marriot Hotels is Mormon.  You can buy porn at Marriot Hotels!  But not in the Mormon temples.  Sad.
 
Some of us have big families.  Some of those families are Mormon and don't accept us because we left.  It's hard, but we endure because we have each other.
PoMo stands for Post Mormon.  We're glad to be!
If you see anyone on TV (not on the BYU channel) under the age of fifty talking about Mormons, you should listen to them and give their words serious thought.  It might even be one of us. 
It's not impossible to offend us - we're human, just like you.
We don't mind using bad language and we don't mind hearing it from others. OPEN YOUR DAMN MOUTH AND SWEAR ALL YOU FSCKING LIKE.
People like, respect, and even admire us.  We think they are pretty cool beans, too.
Not all Post-Mormons are racially white as we have many Africans, Asians, Pan-American Islanders, etc.
We're not perfect. No one is. We make mistakes. We slip. And we're glad we don't have to confess it to the bishop anymore.

     
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Posted: 20 May 2009 03:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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QualityUsedSoul4Sale
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mikeutah:


If you see anyone on TV (not on the BYU channel) under the age of fifty talking about mormons, they're probably lying.
It's nearly impossible to offend us - even if you do it on purpose.
 
 It all made me gag, but these 2 made me !


   


Posted: 20 May 2009 04:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
thrain
Jr. Member
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Joined  2009-01-04
 
  
 
 
NotGaryStu:
I thought I'd write some up for ex- or post-Mormons too.  Call it divine inspiration:
 
*snipped a bunch of wonderfully clever comments only for sake of space*
 
The guy who owns the Marriot Hotels is Mormon.  You can buy porn at Marriot Hotels!  But not in the Mormon temples.  Sad.
 
Some of us have big families.  Some of those families are Mormon and don't accept us because we left.  It's hard, but we endure because we have each other.
PoMo stands for Post Mormon.  We're glad to be!
If you see anyone on TV (not on the BYU channel) under the age of fifty talking about Mormons, you should listen to them and give their words serious thought.  It might even be one of us. 
It's not impossible to offend us - we're human, just like you.
We don't mind using bad language and we don't mind hearing it from others. OPEN YOUR DAMN MOUTH AND SWEAR ALL YOU FSCKING LIKE.
People like, respect, and even admire us.  We think they are pretty cool beans, too.
Not all Post-Mormons are racially white as we have many Africans, Asians, Pan-American Islanders, etc.
We're not perfect. No one is. We make mistakes. We slip. And we're glad we don't have to confess it to the bishop anymore.
 
 
That was wonderful! 


   


Posted: 20 May 2009 04:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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jujukitty
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NotGaryStu:
I thought I'd write some up for ex- or post-Mormons too.  Call it divine inspiration:
 
(snipped for space)
 
NGS, you are awesome!  Those are absolutely perfect!


   


Posted: 20 May 2009 06:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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thewriterwithin
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Joined  2007-09-16
 
  
 
LessMon:
Please love everything about me that's remotely good or innocuous. I'm just that awesome!
 
Please ignore everything about me that's rude, intolerant, decieptful, ignorant, and arrogant. I make mistakes too.
 
Signed,
Happy bubbly teenage girl who gots me a computer now
 
Hilarious. Love it.
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A man who does not think for himself does not think at all.Oscar Wilde


   


Posted: 20 May 2009 06:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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thewriterwithin
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NotGaryStu -- Awesome! NGS must stand for "NowGreatStuff"!
 Signature
A man who does not think for himself does not think at all.Oscar Wilde


   


            
 
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“It Gets Better” @ BYU- video  
Posted: 06 April 2012 10:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
itsallclear
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My cousin posted this on FB and it's getting a lot of ppl's attention on Youtube.  
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym0jXg-hKCI&feature=g-hist&context=G2fe23c5AHT39odAAAAA
 
 
While I think it's a great message and I'm glad there is an organization for these kids to turn to while attending the morg's university, I, along with many others apparently, am discouraged by how deceiving this video is.  It ignores the blaring fact that in order for "things to get better" for these mormon kids, they have to accept and embrace the idea that they will be alone and celibate for the rest of their lives.  That is unless they decide to enter into a heterosexual relationship despite their sexual orientation.  
 
I feel so sorry for these kids; that they don't understand that they could experience life fully, if only they would open their eyes to the truth.  I hope for their sakes that someday they do.   


   


Posted: 06 April 2012 10:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Nourish & Strengthen
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I have seen this posted several times today on facebook. I agree that it is deceiving in that it is putting a mask of tolerance on underlying doctrine that still dictates these individuals are less than normal. 
 
I have been holding back...but want to comment on my friends' posts asking them if the church is now heading down the path of "forgetting" its homophobic dogma just like it has forgotten its racism. 


   


Posted: 06 April 2012 11:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
bjohn
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I'm so angry right now. That video is deceiving. 

   


Posted: 07 April 2012 12:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Smokey
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Nourish & Strengthen:
I have seen this posted several times today on facebook. I agree that it is deceiving in that it is putting a mask of tolerance on underlying doctrine that still dictates these individuals are less than normal. 
 
I have been holding back...but want to comment on my friends' posts asking them if the church is now heading down the path of "forgetting" its homophobic dogma just like it has forgotten its racism. 
 
 Yes, I believe it is.  But if this results in 1 single averted suicide, it is a baby step I will gladly welcome.
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“If a faith will not bear to be investigated: if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak.” (George Albert Smith, Journal Of Discourses, v 14, page 216)


   


Posted: 07 April 2012 02:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
itsallclear
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They finally disabled the comments on the YouTube video. Near the end, they were mostly hate filled comments that were completely unnecessary. But it is a shame that none of the comments are available to view now, as there were some great (by Post Mos mostly) points made. 

   


Posted: 07 April 2012 02:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
bjohn
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I think I know why I am so angered by this campaign. The next generation will say I did not know they didn't allow gay and lesbian people at BYU. I did not know there was a policy against gay people having sex. We will not stop two people in love from being married. What is proposition 8? We just won't allow them to get married in the temple.
 
Just like the generation NOW does not know they performed electric shock therapy on gay students at BYU.
 
It's the same GBH shit, "I don't know that we teach that." I get that it's a step in the right generation. What does it make postmo's like us look like? We are offended by someone, we want to sin, or we couldn't handle living the gospel. When past history is brought up as factual evidence, the church's PR machine convinces the masses it was just a man, it was never official church doctrine and it gets swept under the rug once again.


   


Posted: 07 April 2012 02:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
itsallclear
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Thank you, bjohn! You spell it out perfectly. 

   


Posted: 08 April 2012 05:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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owned
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Exactly, bjohn. 

   


Posted: 08 April 2012 10:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
MJ75
Member
RankRankRank
Joined  2007-04-30
 
  
 
itsallclear:
My cousin posted this on FB and it's getting a lot of ppl's attention on Youtube.  
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym0jXg-hKCI&feature=g-hist&context=G2fe23c5AHT39odAAAAA
 
 
While I think it's a great message and I'm glad there is an organization for these kids to turn to while attending the morg's university, I, along with many others apparently, am discouraged by how deceiving this video is.  It ignores the blaring fact that in order for "things to get better" for these mormon kids, they have to accept and embrace the idea that they will be alone and celibate for the rest of their lives.  That is unless they decide to enter into a heterosexual relationship despite their sexual orientation.  
 
I feel so sorry for these kids; that they don't understand that they could experience life fully, if only they would open their eyes to the truth.  I hope for their sakes that someday they do.   
 
 It seems that ever since Mitt Romney has started to look more and more like the Republican Presidential nominee,  the mormon church has been sweeping some things under the rug. IMO, it's to make the church look less controversial to all those potential converts out there.
 
It's funny because as a nevermo (married to a mormon with a mormon family), I've heard talks before in which the mormon church boasted that, unlike other religions, they don't change their doctrine to fit the times.
 
As far as the video, if these people have truly found peace attending BYU, then good for them. 
 
But when I lived in Utah years ago, a girl drove all the way across the country to attend college in Utah and be near her fiancee. Then he kept postponing setting a wedding date. After about 6 months, he called the wedding off entirely. He couldn't go through with it........he came out as being gay and they broke up. The girl was truly devastated.  
 
So I feel like pretending to be something you're not to please your family or your religion, can really come back to hurt you and/or hurt others.
 


   


Posted: 01 May 2012 04:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
butterflyAway
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The other crazy messed-up cycle is this:  Some leaders also teach that being gay is a "trial" that you have been given in this life to overcome. But..then we turn to the Plan of Salvation and we are taught how we can only be with H.F. in the celetial kingdom. Even single women can get to some part of the Celestial Kingdom, but not people who are gay. So, this means that if you are gay then you will never be attracted to the opposite sex here on earth, so you will never marry in the temple and never get to the celestial kingdom. The church will never allow gay people to marry in the temple. I never see it happening.  Therefore, what happens when gay people die? Do they automatically get that "trial" taken away?  Like what was said before. When gay people die, are they automaically attracted to the opposite sex?   Why would H.F. give a "trial" to someone which would eliminate their chance of EVER getting sealed in the temple and therefore their ability to reach the highest degree of the celetial kingdom? Because as it stands now...as I said before..even single women will get to be angels in the celetial kingdom if they can find a man in the millenium. To me..this idea of it being a "trial" is ridiculous.  Why would God, who loves all His children set his children up for failure in this life and the life to come?
 
 


   


Posted: 01 May 2012 05:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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thewriterwithin
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Joined  2007-09-16
 
  
 
bjohn:
I think I know why I am so angered by this campaign. The next generation will say I did not know they didn't allow gay and lesbian people at BYU. I did not know there was a policy against gay people having sex. We will not stop two people in love from being married. What is proposition 8? We just won't allow them to get married in the temple.
 
Just like the generation NOW does not know they performed electric shock therapy on gay students at BYU.
 
It's the same GBH shit, "I don't know that we teach that." I get that it's a step in the right generation.What does it make postmo's like us look like? We are offended by someone, we want to sin, or we couldn't handle living the gospel. When past history is brought up as factual evidence, the church's PR machine convinces the masses it was just a man, it was never official church doctrine and it gets swept under the rug once again.
 
This isn't about us. And I could not care less how it makes us look -- not that I'm sure it cast any light on us at all.
 
I left because of racism that has been somewhat ameliorated. I don't care. I know why I left. I'm glad to enlighten people as to the true history if they ask. And I'm also glad the church changed -- for everyone's sake but especially for people of color who brush up against Mormons and even for those of color who are Mormons.
 
I feel that way here. I'm glad for Mormon gays and lesbians. I see how their situation is still a dilemma -- and I see how it is better. I hope it gets better yet. I hope within my life I go to a Mormon gay wedding, perhaps not a temple wedding, but a Mormon wedding. That would be worth celebrating.
 
Yes, the change will be creepy and dishonest, and at times we will all wonder if the good of the change is worth the skankiness of how it is accomplished. But in the end, no one kind, no one generous, no one decent can be anything but glad to see things improve for these hurting kids.
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Posted: 01 May 2012 11:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Next up: Mormon gays given "convents/monasteries" to live in...separate from the rest of the church.
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Posted: 01 May 2012 12:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
bjohn
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thewriterwithin:
bjohn:
I think I know why I am so angered by this campaign. The next generation will say I did not know they didn't allow gay and lesbian people at BYU. I did not know there was a policy against gay people having sex. We will not stop two people in love from being married. What is proposition 8? We just won't allow them to get married in the temple.
 
Just like the generation NOW does not know they performed electric shock therapy on gay students at BYU.
 
It's the same GBH shit, "I don't know that we teach that." I get that it's a step in the right generation.What does it make postmo's like us look like? We are offended by someone, we want to sin, or we couldn't handle living the gospel. When past history is brought up as factual evidence, the church's PR machine convinces the masses it was just a man, it was never official church doctrine and it gets swept under the rug once again.
 
This isn't about us. And I could not care less how it makes us look -- not that I'm sure it cast any light on us at all.
 
I left because of racism that has been somewhat ameliorated. I don't care. I know why I left. I'm glad to enlighten people as to the true history if they ask. And I'm also glad the church changed -- for everyone's sake but especially for people of color who brush up against Mormons and even for those of color who are Mormons.
 
I feel that way here. I'm glad for Mormon gays and lesbians. I see how their situation is still a dilemma -- and I see how it is better. I hope it gets better yet. I hope within my life I go to a Mormon gay wedding, perhaps not a temple wedding, but a Mormon wedding. That would be worth celebrating.
 
Yes, the change will be creepy and dishonest, and at times we will all wonder if the good of the change is worth the skankiness of how it is accomplished. But in the end, no one kind, no one generous, no one decent can be anything but glad to see things improve for these hurting kids.
Racism never existed in the church. Oh, sure Brigham Young might have said a few things, but that was coming from a man, not a prophet. There was that thing about the priesthood, but that's in the past. It's almost been 34 years. You probably left because a member offended you or you want to sin. (insert sarcasm).
 
The number of people who leave the church now because of the church being homophobic will be treated the same way in a few short years.  People won't know that BYU gave electro shock treatment to gay students or the church funded a lot of the proposistion 8 campaign.
 
I get that it's not about me, but how can BYU students truly be happy continuing to be members of the LDS church only if they vow a life of celibacy. I feel the campaign is deceptive.
 
I guess that's what bothers me the most. The church is supposed to be the only true church on the face of the earth. It is probably one of the main reasons why I left. The Book of Mormon has changed; it should not! It's perfect, The Bible has flaws. 
 
I feel like all this does is keep gay members paying their tithing and wasting their time in a false church. 
 


   


Posted: 01 May 2012 03:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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bjohn:
Racism never existed in the church. Oh, sure Brigham Young might have said a few things, but that was coming from a man, not a prophet. There was that thing about the priesthood, but that's in the past. It's almost been 34 years. You probably left because a member offended you or you want to sin. (insert sarcasm).
 
The number of people who leave the church now because of the church being homophobic will be treated the same way in a few short years.  People won't know that BYU gave electro shock treatment to gay students or the church funded a lot of the proposistion 8 campaign.
 
I get that it's not about me, but how can BYU students truly be happy continuing to be members of the LDS church only if they vow a life of celibacy. I feel the campaign is deceptive.
 
I guess that's what bothers me the most. The church is supposed to be the only true church on the face of the earth. It is probably one of the main reasons why I left. The Book of Mormon has changed; it should not! It's perfect, The Bible has flaws. 
 
I feel like all this does is keep gay members paying their tithing and wasting their time in a false church. 
 
Opening paragraph: I've never heard that anywhere -- but here, from you. No one has told me I left because I wanted to sin. Maybe I just don't run into the right people. Sometime Mormons are ignorant of their past, and perhaps even defensive when they hear the truth. For me, patience and explaining has worked wonders. And I remain glad the Mormon Church changed for the better -- for everyone involved. True, I raise an eyebrow when a Gladys Knight joins the church, but good heavens, I also have a grip on the fact it is her life and her choice. I might doubt her wisdom, all the while wishing her well.
 
Yes, the past will fade. It does that. And not just in the Mormon Church. I certainly don't think they are outdone by the current political right wing which loves to pretend it was not born in the same bed as Jim Crow and public hangings of African Americans for sport and edification. The Mormons were by no means the only reactionaries during the Civil Rights movement, and they aren't the only group who has managed to cover their tracks and now seek to appear quite spotless on the issue of race relations. Dare I say the words "Republican Party"?
 
Still, despite all this, I can only be happy for these gay and lesbian students making baby steps toward a better world for them. I'd like to float the idea that some gay Mormons may wish to remain Mormons. It is not for us to say, anymore than it is up to us to judge Gladys Knight.
 
I know you did not say this out loud, but I don't think this is some plot by those in power. I rather feel as though their hand has been forced, and they resent the change -- well -- as much as you do. And how ironic is that? They might eventually come to realize it is in their best interest, but I don't think that is why there is this club.
 
What you need to grasp is that, no matter how you see it, you are trashing these students and their efforts -- not the General Authorities of the Mormon Church. They are feeling their way along on a dark night. Many of them, we can only hope, will eventually find their way out of Mormonism entirely. But you need to brace for the obvious that some might remain in Mormonism and be pioneers in forging a new, more open and accepting church. And good for them. If that is their wish and their dream, I don't begrudge them because I need confirmation for my own dislike of Mormonism.  
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Posted: 01 May 2012 05:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Don't know where anyone gave the idea that anyone was trashing the group itself....except that it is "forced" to live within certain guidelines set up by GAs and BYU admins.
 
That's the part that is sneaky and deceiving.
 
These people are full-grown adults, able to make their own decisions...about who they will be with/marry/cohabitate with.
 
They don't need this "over-lordship" of the church demanding they be celebate...their entire lives.
 
The question is...why should they????!!!!
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Posted: 07 May 2012 01:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
bjohn
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thewriterwithin:
bjohn:
Racism never existed in the church. Oh, sure Brigham Young might have said a few things, but that was coming from a man, not a prophet. There was that thing about the priesthood, but that's in the past. It's almost been 34 years. You probably left because a member offended you or you want to sin. (insert sarcasm).
 
The number of people who leave the church now because of the church being homophobic will be treated the same way in a few short years.  People won't know that BYU gave electro shock treatment to gay students or the church funded a lot of the proposistion 8 campaign.
 
I get that it's not about me, but how can BYU students truly be happy continuing to be members of the LDS church only if they vow a life of celibacy. I feel the campaign is deceptive.
 
I guess that's what bothers me the most. The church is supposed to be the only true church on the face of the earth. It is probably one of the main reasons why I left. The Book of Mormon has changed; it should not! It's perfect, The Bible has flaws. 
 
I feel like all this does is keep gay members paying their tithing and wasting their time in a false church. 
 
Opening paragraph: I've never heard that anywhere -- but here, from you. No one has told me I left because I wanted to sin. Maybe I just don't run into the right people. Sometime Mormons are ignorant of their past, and perhaps even defensive when they hear the truth. For me, patience and explaining has worked wonders. And I remain glad the Mormon Church changed for the better -- for everyone involved. True, I raise an eyebrow when a Gladys Knight joins the church, but good heavens, I also have a grip on the fact it is her life and her choice. I might doubt her wisdom, all the while wishing her well.
 
Yes, the past will fade. It does that. And not just in the Mormon Church. I certainly don't think they are outdone by the current political right wing which loves to pretend it was not born in the same bed as Jim Crow and public hangings of African Americans for sport and edification. The Mormons were by no means the only reactionaries during the Civil Rights movement, and they aren't the only group who has managed to cover their tracks and now seek to appear quite spotless on the issue of race relations. Dare I say the words "Republican Party"?
 
Still, despite all this, I can only be happy for these gay and lesbian students making baby steps toward a better world for them. I'd like to float the idea that some gay Mormons may wish to remain Mormons. It is not for us to say, anymore than it is up to us to judge Gladys Knight.
 
I know you did not say this out loud, but I don't think this is some plot by those in power. I rather feel as though their hand has been forced, and they resent the change -- well -- as much as you do. And how ironic is that? They might eventually come to realize it is in their best interest, but I don't think that is why there is this club.
 
What you need to grasp is that, no matter how you see it, you are trashing these students and their efforts -- not the General Authorities of the Mormon Church. They are feeling their way along on a dark night. Many of them, we can only hope, will eventually find their way out of Mormonism entirely. But you need to brace for the obvious that some might remain in Mormonism and be pioneers in forging a new, more open and accepting church. And good for them. If that is their wish and their dream, I don't begrudge them because I need confirmation for my own dislike of Mormonism.  
 
 I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I see the video as being deceptive. I am NOT trashing the students. When I was  an active TBM, I was slowly strung along. Put things on a shelf that didn't make sense or made me question. I feel that's probably where they are at right now, but in a much harder place. I feel bad for them. I want them to be TRULY happy and feel like they are feeling some hope and better about themselves.
 
Telling me I need to grasp something and that I'm "trashing" students is very consdenscending. 


   


Posted: 07 May 2012 01:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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Deceiving or not, this is huge. Ten years ago -- even five years ago -- a video like this would NEVER have been made, let alone spread. 
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Posted: 07 May 2012 02:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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You're gay?  
 
 
Here.  Have a cookie.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
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Posted: 07 May 2012 04:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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dave (e_nomo)
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The larger "It Gets Better" project was an attempt to let kids know that the bullying and pain that they experience in school will get better with time.  The messages were delivered by happy, well-adjusted gay people who spoke from personal experience. 
The message of "It Gets Better" is that you can be gay AND have a full and happy life. 
 
So while I applaud these BYU students for  their courage and their hope, it only makes me more angry at BYU and the mormon church.  It may be getting better for LGBT youth, but not much.  The essential message that you can be gay and have a full and  happy life is still not true for them if your idea of a full life includes (if you choose) a strong and committed relationship with someone you love.  
 
I guess it's better that LGBT kids are told they have a "cross to bear" instead of being told they are pure evil.  But this "softened" message is still not healthy.  It's toxic.  My advice to LGBT mormon youth, run don't walk for the nearest exit.  
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Posted: 07 May 2012 05:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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Yeah, exactly how much "better" does it get?
 
 
 
Source: PostSecret (5/6/12) 
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Just when you think racism in the church does not matter much anymore…....  
Posted: 09 March 2010 04:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Something like this happens.  Last night my buddy told me that the xyz family, that was recently divided into another ward, has gone way inactive.  I asked why and he said well the dad just found out about all of the racism etc in the church.  So I used to go to gospel principles with this guy and his wife and his non member mom who he eventually baptized.  Great guy.  Great family.  A sincere guy.  I think they may have even gone through the temple.  You know the family type in a ward.  Sometimes there are people or families in wards that the ward collectively is "proud of".
 
So now the dude has found out the truth about the church and their racist history and he is pissed and he has pulled his family out.  I don't know much more than that but I do feel for him.  How a black family gets in this deep with the church and they have no idea about the racism outside of the simplistic explanations for the priesthood ban is just horrible.  I would think it would be worse than finding out about rocks and a hat because racism goes to the core of who you are.  Can you imagine how he felt when he found out?  What did he get his family in to?  I can't imagine the horrible feelings he is having to deal with.
 
It's a total disgrace.  I am glad the church did not "get away with it" but it comes at the too high a price of this guy and his family.
 
The church lies to their members and prospective members and their new members.  The one of the biggest religious bait and switches going.  At some point it has to stop.  What a tragedy.
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Posted: 09 March 2010 04:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Yes it is a tragedy. For a church to claim to be the only true church of Christ and to lie over and over again about history and other things is abhorrent. The XChurch is a cult plain and simple. They want to control people and make billions. And for what? Helping the poor like Jesus would have? Pshaw, not them. They buy up malls and lands. So when will they reign with blood and horror on this earth? Oh wait, they already have in part. Can anyone say Brigham Young or the Danites?
 
 
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Posted: 09 March 2010 04:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Sound like he could use a post-mo missionary visit from you so you can help him resign if that's what he wants and to direct him to this site for support.
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Posted: 09 March 2010 05:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Lilith:
Sound like he could use a post-mo missionary visit from you so you can help him resign if that's what he wants and to direct him to this site for support.
 
I thought about contacting him.  I don't know, I am sure he has been assigned a freaking task force to bring his family back.....but you know what he is going through.  He just wants somebody to be like, yeah man, those guys were racists.  He needs somebody to agree with the common sense but he won't get that and it will frustrate him even more.
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Posted: 09 March 2010 05:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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The PRofit
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Lilith:
Sound like he could use a post-mo missionary visit from you so you can help him resign if that's what he wants and to direct him to this site for support.
 
I did that with the black and inter-racial families in my ward and it backfired on me. 
I had one of them tell me that the Stake President told him to avoid contact with me if I was trying to destroy his faith.  (this SP is the same prick who told another black new LDS convert friend of mine not to expect any kind of an appology from LDS Inc for its past racism, since it was doctrinal, not just folklore.) 
 
It didn't do any good. They're all still staunch Mormons, even more deeply entrenched than they were before, except for the one guy who told me that I'd destroyed his Utopian society by leaving the ward, who ended up fncking up his life by fncking his wife's best (LDS) friend.
 
Turns out Utopia was a lot more like Peyton's Place. 
 
I figure if they want to find out, they can Google the word "Mormon + racism" or "Joseph Smith" or "Blacks + Priesthood" just as easily as I can.  
 
Eff it. I'm not responsible for anybody else's destiny except my own and to a more limited extent, my wife and children. But beyond that, everybody else is responsible for determining their own destiny, right?
 
My missionary days were OVER the second I stepped on the plane out of OZ back in 1985. I served my time. I'm effing done with missionary work, even when it comes to being a PoMo missionary.  If somebody wants to know something from me, my number is in the GD phone book and they can stop by any time to have a heart to heart talk with me. But NEVER again will I go knock on somebody's door or call them to try and convert them to my way of thinking.  If I run into the guy in public I might mention to him that I know where he's coming from, that I used to be LDS and found out about all the nonsense and left and that he's not alone and if he needs somebody to talk to, that I was available. I'd give him my card and tell him to call me any time he needed to talk and leave the next move up to him.
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Posted: 09 March 2010 06:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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The very fact that the church continues to "bury" their history, instead of coming out and apologizing for the errors and non-pc stuff....shows that the church is a slimy, money-grubbing business shark. The church really thinks it can get away with "flushing" it's history, sweeping it all under-the-rug hoping no one will look at anything but their "charitable" endeavors and false advertising. It's pitiful when the eyes are opened, and people walk, with their tears spilling over for the years wasted on a cult. Very sad.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 09 March 2010 06:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler
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Kori:
Lilith:
Sound like he could use a post-mo missionary visit from you so you can help him resign if that's what he wants and to direct him to this site for support.
 
I did that with the black and inter-racial families in my ward and it backfired on me. 
I had one of them tell me that the Stake President told him to avoid contact with me if I was trying to destroy his faith.  (this SP is the same prick who told another black new LDS convert friend of mine not to expect any kind of an appology from LDS Inc for its past racism, since it was doctrinal, not just folklore.) 
 
It didn't do any good. They're all still staunch Mormons, even more deeply entrenched than they were before, except for the one guy who told me that I'd destroyed his Utopian society by leaving the ward, who ended up fncking up his life by fncking his wife's best (LDS) friend.
 
Turns out Utopia was a lot more like Peyton's Place. 
 
I figure if they want to find out, they can Google the word "Mormon + racism" or "Joseph Smith" or "Blacks + Priesthood" just as easily as I can.  
 
Eff it. I'm not responsible for anybody else's destiny except my own and to a more limited extent, my wife and children. But beyond that, everybody else is responsible for determining their own destiny, right?
 
My missionary days were OVER the second I stepped on the plane out of OZ back in 1985. I served my time. I'm effing done with missionary work, even when it comes to being a PoMo missionary.  If somebody wants to know something from me, my number is in the GD phone book and they can stop by any time to have a heart to heart talk with me. But NEVER again will I go knock on somebody's door or call them to try and convert them to my way of thinking.  If I run into the guy in public I might mention to him that I know where he's coming from, that I used to be LDS and found out about all the nonsense and left and that he's not alone and if he needs somebody to talk to, that I was available. I'd give him my card and tell him to call me any time he needed to talk and leave the next move up to him.
Real Nice.  Kori, I hear what you are saying.  This is a high profile family and I am a low profile member but with an emerging reputation (not a good one) in the stake.  It could really go bad with me visiting him.  What sucks is the alternative.  He has nobody or at least it is really easy for me to assume he has nobody to talk to except people trying to convince him the why and the how it is ALL OK.
 
It's like the church controls EVERYTING.  They they even control how if i do visit him it will cause a crap storm.  I don't even really want to visit him it's just we all know what it is like when you get rocked.  The church somehow can make bad situations worse.  I am telling you the stake is going after this guy big time.  One guy is getting ready by reading Ash's shaken faith syndrome book.  Like the poor dude finds out the horrible truth and what does he get for it?..............Ash logic.
 
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200 More Miles
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SwJM5yohb0


   


Posted: 09 March 2010 06:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
paladin
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When the Blacks receiving the Priesthood happened in 1978, I wondered just how the Church was going to deal with its history of racism. It boggles my mind that, even now, the Church essentially acts like it never happened. It is a rock-and-a- hard-place situation, because the all true, led by God's Prophet religion can't be wrong, yet when they have to morph into a new situation to stay in business, they have all the dirty laundry in their doctrine and history to deal with. I love this stuff. This is more entertaining than hollywood movies. 

   


Posted: 09 March 2010 06:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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The PRofit
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Lloyd Dobler: Real Nice.  Kori, I hear what you are saying.  This is a high profile family and I am a low profile member but with an emerging reputation (not a good one) in the stake.  It could really go bad with me visiting him.  What sucks is the alternative.  He has nobody or at least it is really easy for me to assume he has nobody to talk to except people trying to convince him the why and the how it is ALL OK.
 
It's like the church controls EVERYTING.  They they even control how if i do visit him it will cause a crap storm.  I don't even really want to visit him it's just we all know what it is like when you get rocked.  The church somehow can make bad situations worse.  I am telling you the stake is going after this guy big time.  One guy is getting ready by reading Ash's shaken faith syndrome book.  Like the poor dude finds out the horrible truth and what does he get for it?..............Ash logic.
 
 
Yeah, no sh!t I wanted to kick the SP in the teeth when I heard that. I could just see the hurt in my friend's eyes when he related that story to me. I told him that the god I believed in, wasn't a racist. That it wasn't doctrinal. That the most important doctrine is Christ's main commandment that we love one another as ourselves, which racism clearly violates.
 
Mormon racism is no different from any other kind of racism. It's just plain old fashioned bigotry, disguised as religion and it sure as hell didn't make any sense if God apparently had no problem with giving the priesthood to blacks, back when Joseph's Myth gave the priesthood to people like Elijah Abel, who was a freed slave, but suddenly once Joseph dies then Brigham Young decided God had this huge problem with blacks having the priesthood? That's total nonsense that I've never heard a Mormon explain, because it's impossible.  
 
 
Are you still a member of the church? You know if you go to this guy and share your doubts with him you will likely be called before a 'Quart o' Luv' to be excommunicated, right?  
 
If that's not the outcome you want to determine for yourself or for your family, then avoid this situation like the plague. It will all work out for the best in the long run.  
 
Don't let them call the shots. You decide what outcomes you want for you and your family and set about determining those outcomes, just like this guy has to do for himself and his family. If he's gullible enough to fall for "Ash logic" that's his problem.  
 
I few well intentioned keystrokes can defeat that logic and I'm sure the guy can 'Google' just like the rest of us, unless he's got no fingers, then I might consider stepping in to help the guy type the words "Mormon + racism" into Google. 
 
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Posted: 09 March 2010 06:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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YesIAmAPyr8
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I also stand all amazed that the church does it's PR magic and POOF! it's all gone.
 
The weird thing that always REALLY surprised me was how the reaction was from the rest of the 'gentile' world...It's like, 'well, they said they're gonna be nice now, so we'll leave them alone'. WTF?
 
How does a church get a 'pass' simply by announcing that from now on there will be a racial mixture filled with sweetness and light?  Why has no one decried the obvious PR dodge to avoid scrutiny?  Why has no one on the outside of the church looked into the incongruity between then and now?  Why does no one seem to care that there is a huge disconnect between history and the clearly sanitized, artificial handling of the former cursed seed of Cain in the current church?
 
I don't get it. 
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Posted: 09 March 2010 06:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Dahli-mama
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Mr. Dobler, I'm so sorry to inform you but according to this statement, the LDS church has no history of which you speak.
 
..Alexander Morrison, has said of church history in this article in the September 2000 Ensign:
<!-- m -->http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h<!-- m -->
How grateful I am that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has from its beginnings stood strongly against racism in any of its malignant manifestations. 

So there you have it, no racism. That should clear stuff up.



   


Posted: 09 March 2010 07:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Dahli-mama
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http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_racism.html#pub_-2851309
 
I'm sure your friend has come across a lot of these topics and scriptural evidences. The LDS church has a lot to be ashamed of and have been on the wrong side of history in almost every civil rights case, including Blacks, women, abortion, equal rights, and gays.
 
What's funny is that the Ensign magazine loves to show all these diverse people, especially at conference time. Sweet clean cut families of every color and race walking reverently and excitedly to the conference center, acting so much like their white benefactors.  But when you look at the leadership you'll see white guy, white guy, white guy, white guy, white guy, white guy, white guy, white guy, white guy, white guy, and sometimes a white lady. Diversity my arse.
 



   


Posted: 09 March 2010 07:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Dinah
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YesIAmAPyr:
I also stand all amazed that the church does it's PR magic and POOF! it's all gone.
 
The weird thing that always REALLY surprised me was how the reaction was from the rest of the 'gentile' world...It's like, 'well, they said they're gonna be nice now, so we'll leave them alone'. WTF?
 
How does a church get a 'pass' simply by announcing that from now on there will be a racial mixture filled with sweetness and light?  Why has no one decried the obvious PR dodge to avoid scrutiny?  Why has no one on the outside of the church looked into the incongruity between then and now?  Why does no one seem to care that there is a huge disconnect between history and the clearly sanitized, artificial handling of the former cursed seed of Cain in the current church?
 
I don't get it. 
 
 Because no one give a damn about the LDS church.  They just don't care.  Why don't we get upset at the Jehovah's Witnesses and how their leaders have prophesied at least 4 times of specific years/decades that Jebus was going to come back but then it never happened?  Because no one outside of the Jehovah's Witnesses or ex-Jehovah's Witnesses cares even a little bit.  To the rest of the world both Mormons and JW's are just fringe American cults that have very little relevance in their lives.


   


Posted: 09 March 2010 07:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Masters and "indentured servants or slaves" ....15 and members....
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 09 March 2010 07:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler
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Dahli-mama:
Mr. Dobler, I'm so sorry to inform you but according to this statement, the LDS church has no history of which you speak.
 
..Alexander Morrison, has said of church history in this article in the September 2000 Ensign:
<!-- m -->http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h<!-- m -->
How grateful I am that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has from its beginnings stood strongly against racism in any of its malignant manifestations. 

So there you have it, no racism. That should clear stuff up.

 
It seems as though i have totally overreacted.  My bad.
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They say that I am crazy
My life wasting on this road
That time will find my dreams
Scared or dead and cold
But I heard there is a light
Drawing me to reach an end
And when I reach there, I’ll turn back
And you and I can begin again

200 More Miles
Cowboy Junkies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SwJM5yohb0


   


Posted: 09 March 2010 07:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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YesIAmAPyr8
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Dinah:
YesIAmAPyr:
I also stand all amazed that the church does it's PR magic and POOF! it's all gone.
 
The weird thing that always REALLY surprised me was how the reaction was from the rest of the 'gentile' world...It's like, 'well, they said they're gonna be nice now, so we'll leave them alone'. WTF?
 
How does a church get a 'pass' simply by announcing that from now on there will be a racial mixture filled with sweetness and light?  Why has no one decried the obvious PR dodge to avoid scrutiny?  Why has no one on the outside of the church looked into the incongruity between then and now?  Why does no one seem to care that there is a huge disconnect between history and the clearly sanitized, artificial handling of the former cursed seed of Cain in the current church?
 
I don't get it. 
 
 Because no one give a damn about the LDS church.  They just don't care.  Why don't we get upset at the Jehovah's Witnesses and how their leaders have prophesied at least 4 times of specific years/decades that Jebus was going to come back but then it never happened?  Because no one outside of the Jehovah's Witnesses or ex-Jehovah's Witnesses cares even a little bit.  To the rest of the world both Mormons and JW's are just fringe American cults that have very little relevance in their lives.
 
It's time that someone did care...

Racism and equality are hot button topics in today's world.  The mormon church, by some accounts, has the 15th largest membership in the world.  That is not a completely insignificant number.  The mormons have also managed to showcase it's high profile membership consistently and unabashedly. 
 
On those terms, I beleive that the church's whitewashing (lousy pun, I know) of it's past deserves criticism and attention, especially when coupled in it's latest debacle involving the public opposition to gay marriage...
 
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Posted: 09 March 2010 07:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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The PRofit
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YesIAmAPyr:
I also stand all amazed that the church does it's PR magic and POOF! it's all gone.
 
The weird thing that always REALLY surprised me was how the reaction was from the rest of the 'gentile' world...It's like, 'well, they said they're gonna be nice now, so we'll leave them alone'. WTF?
 
How does a church get a 'pass' simply by announcing that from now on there will be a racial mixture filled with sweetness and light?  Why has no one decried the obvious PR dodge to avoid scrutiny?  Why has no one on the outside of the church looked into the incongruity between then and now?  Why does no one seem to care that there is a huge disconnect between history and the clearly sanitized, artificial handling of the former cursed seed of Cain in the current church?
 
I don't get it. 
 
Oh I get it. 
 
They've got well educated, intellectually dishonest, appologists, like Prof. Armond Mauss, who makes erudite excuses for Mormon racism, saying the Mormons were no more racist than any other church back then. They were ALL racist. (uh, really Armond? Name one church, other than the FLDS, that still cannonizes this as the word of God, that black skin was the curse of Cain? and that God regularly turned white people black when he was displeased with them in the Book of Mormon and turned them white again once they pleased him again?)
 
To me this is the lamest of excuses. Abraham Lincoln was Brigham Young's contemporary and he wasn't a racist. He ended the institution of slavery, which Brigham Young helped to prop up. The church, while run by Brigham Young actually owned slaves. here  
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Posted: 09 March 2010 08:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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Lilith
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Well I guess you wouldn't have to physically go to the guys house. I know personally I would try reaching out in some manner to let them know they aren't alone. Phone call, e-mail, card in the mail. I guess I'd just do something to extend a open mind and open ear if they wanted or even needed one. If they refuse then at least I could say I tried and offered up an alternative instead of letting the church work them over to try and get them back into the fold or love bombed them to death. But that's just me.
.
Probably because I don't live in a highly populated LDS world like some of you.
.
For me to find someone else who is struggling with Mormonism or leaving Mormonism or has left Mormonism is far and few between. It's not like they are coming out of the wood works here in the mitten state.
.
I guess I'd do it for me more than them, LOL I want someone else to talk to about this stuff in person and not just online in a seemingly virtual world. Yes, we have a Michigan chapter and all, but when some people have to drive 2-4 hours to gather in one location, it doesn't make for a very large group gathering, let alone something we can do on a monthly basis either. We already had a big fall out this past December with some militants getting upset that not everyone in the group was as "anti" Mormon as them and were still going to church. UGH that was ugly.
.
I can understand the idea of only looking out for yourself, but I guess I am one who would rather help my fellow humans out of the Mormon religion if I see and opportunity instead of leaving it alone and not thinking it's my problem. Of course it's not my problem unless I make it my problem. Just like Haiti victims, Katrina victims, or even 9-11 victims. Why should I care?! It's not like it happened to me, right?! I still have a house and a life and I am a-okay. They can do for themselves, right?! - Not me. I see a need or an opportunity and I try and help in some manner to the best of my ability.
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Posted: 09 March 2010 09:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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The PRofit
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Lilith:
Well I guess you wouldn't have to physically go to the guys house. I know personally I would try reaching out in some manner to let them know they aren't alone. Phone call, e-mail, card in the mail. I guess I'd just do something to extend a open mind and open ear if they wanted or even needed one. If they refuse then at least I could say I tried and offered up an alternative instead of letting the church work them over to try and get them back into the fold or love bombed them to death. But that's just me.
.
Probably because I don't live in a highly populated LDS world like some of you.
.
For me to find someone else who is struggling with Mormonism or leaving Mormonism or has left Mormonism is far and few between. It's not like they are coming out of the wood works here in the mitten state.
.
I guess I'd do it for me more than them, LOL I want someone else to talk to about this stuff in person and not just online in a seemingly virtual world. Yes, we have a Michigan chapter and all, but when some people have to drive 2-4 hours to gather in one location, it doesn't make for a very large group gathering, let alone something we can do on a monthly basis either. We already had a big fall out this past December with some militants getting upset that not everyone in the group was as "anti" Mormon as them and were still going to church. UGH that was ugly.
.
I can understand the idea of only looking out for yourself, but I guess I am one who would rather help my fellow humans out of the Mormon religion if I see and opportunity instead of leaving it alone and not thinking it's my problem. Of course it's not my problem unless I make it my problem. Just like Haiti victims, Katrina victims, or even 9-11 victims. Why should I care?! It's not like it happened to me, right?! I still have a house and a life and I am a-okay. They can do for themselves, right?! - Not me. I see a need or an opportunity and I try and help in some manner to the best of my ability.
Being a friendly neighbor and offering a sympathetic ear to somebody experiencing a crisis of faith is usually a good idea, in theory. Just don't be surprised when in reality, it blows up in your face, if you're doing it for yourself rather than for their benefit. Kind of like when somebody breaks up with a girlfriend or boyfriend and you tell them what a great thing it is for them and how great it is that they broke up with that jerk, who wasn't doing them any good!
 
Then they end up getting back together with that 'jerk' and tell them everything you said, then you're suddenly the 'jerk' for opening your mouth.
 
If the person is really a jerk, then the person they're in the relationship with will find out soon enough on their own and you don't need to inform them of anything they're going to find out all on their own.
 
Becoming a PostMormon doesn't cure anybody from being an Egomaniacal asshole. 
 
Hey, to each his/her own. I'm just saying that I've had some bad experiences doing just that which have made me hesitant to screw up any of my real life relationships or my reputation in the community, by going around and trying to deconvert people from Mormonism. But every situation is unique and I take each individual relationship on an individual basis. I don't opperate under any kind of an illusion that I'm going to single handedly save the world from Joseph's Myth, when the internet is doing a great job of that without me involved, screwing up my reputation and real life relationships. I look at my contributions here as an appropriate response to the 50,000 man standing army LDS feels entitled to send around the world spreading lies and as restitution for the 18 months I spend as a part of that sinfull effort. 
 
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Posted: 09 March 2010 10:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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Dahli-mama
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Lloyd Dobler:
Dahli-mama:
Mr. Dobler, I'm so sorry to inform you but according to this statement, the LDS church has no history of which you speak.
 
..Alexander Morrison, has said of church history in this article in the September 2000 Ensign:
<!-- m -->http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h<!-- m -->
How grateful I am that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has from its beginnings stood strongly against racism in any of its malignant manifestations. 

So there you have it, no racism. That should clear stuff up.

 
It seems as though i have totally overreacted.  My bad.
 
My kids spent the first few yrs. of their lives in S. California and shared the neighborhood with kids from about 30 different countries. We could never afford to live in an all white neighborhood so they thought the world was just one big polyglot of mixed cultures, races, diversity, etc.. The only stipulation I put on them on who they could play with was that the kid be nice and not encourage them to do unsafe things.
 
When my youngest was four her best friend was a mixed race black/Navajo girl and they played together every day, had sleep overs, etc.. One day her little friend had a dress that had similar ruffles and printed flowers and they came skipping up giddy with happiness because they had just discovered they were twins.
 
I don't think my kids have any concept of the racism that has abounded in the LDS church and US history in my generation or our parents generations. They would be appalled at the kind of things Brigham Young or even the propets and leaders in the 1970s said regarding Lamanites, blacks, asians, etc..
 
You've got to hand it to the LDS spin machine on re-branding themselves as some uber friendly diverse organization.  For anyone not inclined to look on the internet or remember prior to about 1985 it almost looks like the church considers anyone darker than masking tape to be nearly human.
 

 
 


   


Posted: 10 March 2010 12:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
Tauna
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My brother and his wife adopted a bi-racial baby boy a couple years ago. They were so happy to get a child and have doted on this child more than I have ever seen a parent dote! My brother was talking once about how when little Sammy goes to BYU, he will be the dark, cool guy that all the girls want to date... I remember thinking, 'Doesn't the church discourage interracial dating???'. Anyway, my brother and his wife have no idea of the racism in the mormon church. I'm pretty sure it would be a BIG problem for both of them. I hope someday soon they find out. 

   


Posted: 10 March 2010 12:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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Jammerwoch
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Tauna:
My brother and his wife adopted a bi-racial baby boy a couple years ago. They were so happy to get a child and have doted on this child more than I have ever seen a parent dote! My brother was talking once about how when little Sammy goes to BYU, he will be the dark, cool guy that all the girls want to date... I remember thinking, 'Doesn't the church discourage interracial dating???'. Anyway, my brother and his wife have no idea of the racism in the mormon church. I'm pretty sure it would be a BIG problem for both of them. I hope someday soon they find out.
Tauna:  Congratulations on your bi-racial nephew!  I know a number of LDS families who are adopting kids in this category--they all seem happy and their LDS wards seem to be accepting the children.
 
When I went to BYU in the early 70's the athletic dept had a real situation recruiting Blacks to play basketball and football.  If they didn't recruit, the school looked lily-white to other teams in the conference and on TV (not to mention losing games to schools with Black players).  But if they did, who would those players date?  Many parents of BYU students did not want their daughters dating dark-skinned boys--due not just to personal racism, but to many, many comments from GA's discouraging interracial dating.  One solution--recruit "colored" girls so the athletes had someone to date.  The situation was never resolved, but eased somewhat after the "revelation" on the Priesthood (i.e. the corporate PR decision to join the rest of the civilized world).
 
I have a daughter going to BYU in the fall.  She has dated inter-racially in HS.  I don't know what the BYU situation is, but suspect there is no current administrative discouragement of inter-racial dating.  Maybe another poster can speak to this.
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The Church is always trying to get other people to reform; it might not be a bad idea to reform itself a little by way of example.
    —Mark Twain in A Tramp Abroad


   


Posted: 10 March 2010 12:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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The PRofit
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Tauna:
My brother and his wife adopted a bi-racial baby boy a couple years ago. They were so happy to get a child and have doted on this child more than I have ever seen a parent dote! My brother was talking once about how when little Sammy goes to BYU, he will be the dark, cool guy that all the girls want to date... I remember thinking, 'Doesn't the church discourage interracial dating???'. Anyway, my brother and his wife have no idea of the racism in the mormon church. I'm pretty sure it would be a BIG problem for both of them. I hope someday soon they find out.
 
Ask him to show you the appology for these kinds of racist statements.
 
 
 "Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses, Vol.10, p.109)
“Now, the brethren feel that it is not the wisest thing to cross racial lines in dating and marrying. There is no condemnation. We have had some of our fine young people who have crossed the lines. We hope they will be very happy, but experience of the brethren through a hundred years has proved to us that marriage is a very difficult thing under any circumstances and the difficulty increases in interrace marriages” (Spencer W. Kimball, Brigham Young University devotional, 5 January 1965)
“When I said you must teach your people to overcome their prejudices and accept the Indians, I did not mean that you would encourage intermarriage. I mean that they should be brothers, to worship together and to work together and to play together; but we must discourage intermarriage, not because it is sin. I would like to make this very emphatic. A couple has not committed sin if an Indian boy and a white girl are married, or vice versa. It isn’t a transgression like the transgressions of which many are guilty. But it is not expedient. Marriage statistics and our general experience convince us that marriage is not easy. It is difficult when all factors are favorable. The divorces increase constantly, even where the spouses have the same general background of race, religion, finances, education, and otherwise. ” (Spencer W. Kimball, “The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball,” p. 302)
“The interrace marriage problem is not one of inferiority or superiority. It may be that your son is better educated and may be superior in his culture, and yet it may be on the other hand that she is superior to him. It is a matter of backgrounds. The difficulties and hazards of marriage are greatly increased where backgrounds are different. For a wealthy person to marry a pauper promises difficulties. For an ignoramus to marry one with a doctor’s degree promises difficulties, heartaches, misunderstandings, and broken marriages.
“When one considers marriage, it should be an unselfish thing, but there is not much selflessness when two people of different races plan marriage. They must be thinking selfishly of themselves. They certainly are not considering the problems that will beset each other and that will beset their children.
“If your son thinks he loves this girl, he would not want to inflict upon her loneliness and unhappiness; and if he thinks that his affection for her will solve all her problems, he should do some more mature thinking.
“We are unanimous, all of the Brethren, in feeling and recommending that Indians marry Indians, and Mexicans marry Mexicans; the Chinese marry Chinese and the Japanese marry Japanese; that the Caucasians marry the Caucasians, and the Arabs marry Arabs.” (Spencer W. Kimball, “The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball,” p. 303)
 
 
 
In the absence of any kind of renunciation of these official LDS statements, which helped to establish the institution of racism in the US, and especially in the Mormon church, the institution still stands and is propogated within the church, as these racist myths are allowed to continue to be passed down from one generation to the next, in hushed, sacred secret tones, without being clearly debunked by LDS leaders, who are still considered to be the mouthpieces of God.
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Delusion: a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.


   


Posted: 10 March 2010 01:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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Lilith
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I'm not talking about "deconverting" at all. Just merely lending a listening ear and saying "Hey, I understand where you are coming from, if you ever need to talk." I don't have ideas that people will listen to the stuff I know about the religion that lead me to resign. I certainly wouldn't go and start preaching about that in the least.
.
I guess if it were me hearing about this news of a friend I would send off an e-mail saying something to the effect of "Hey I heard you are leaving the church or have left the church. I know where you are coming from and if you ever want to talk about it I am here for you. This is a link to my exit letter and why I chose to leave the church. Read it if you want to or don't, it's up to you. Just letting you know you aren't alone."
.
Just something simple like that. And yes, you probably have had more blow ups than others. Like I said you have more opportunity based on where you live compared to me and others here. I on the other hand am fairly hands off and have had a few people read my exit letter and leave the church and much without my promptings, or with just the offering of my link; including my own sister whom I never suspected had an inkling of doubt before she started posting here and told me of her new apostate status and in thanks part to my exit letter, which I only sent once over 2 years ago.
.
I don't agree with going out and trying to deconvert others away from Mormonism, but if I see an opportunity I would take a chance, no matter how many times I've been "burned" because you never know. But again, that's just ME.
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“You might want to tell the truth. It’s easier to remember.” - Cho ~ The Mentalist..
A Mormon?! But I’m from Earth! - Homer Simpson..
I’m sorry, but if I agreed with you, we’d both be wrong! As it is I refuse to have a ‘Battle Of Wits’ with an unarmed person!


   


Posted: 10 March 2010 01:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
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Jammerwoch
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Kori:
   
In the absence of any kind of renunciation of these official LDS statements, which helped to establish the institution of racism in the US, and especially in the Mormon church, the institution still stands and is propogated within the church, as these racist myths are allowed to continue to be passed down from one generation to the next, in hushed, sacred secret tones, without being clearly debunked by LDS leaders, who are still considered to be the mouthpieces of God.
 
 That would open up a big can of worms, since past prophets are also considered to be mouthpieces of God.  Once we debunk them, the door is open to questioning living prophets, and where would that lead???
 
So far the strategy seems to be to ignore the past and hope it just goes away.  But with the internet and people like you that isn't working so well any more.  You insist on dredging up all these unhappy details and holding the feet of LDS Inc to the fire!
 
 
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The Church is always trying to get other people to reform; it might not be a bad idea to reform itself a little by way of example.
    —Mark Twain in A Tramp Abroad


   


Posted: 10 March 2010 01:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
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The PRofit
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Lilith:
I'm not talking about "deconverting" at all. Just merely lending a listening ear and saying "Hey, I understand where you are coming from, if you ever need to talk." I don't have ideas that people will listen to the stuff I know about the religion that lead me to resign. I certainly wouldn't go and start preaching about that in the least.
.
I guess if it were me hearing about this news of a friend I would send off an e-mail saying something to the effect of "Hey I heard you are leaving the church or have left the church. I know where you are coming from and if you ever want to talk about it I am here for you. This is a link to my exit letter and why I chose to leave the church. Read it if you want to or don't, it's up to you. Just letting you know you aren't alone."
.
Just something simple like that. And yes, you probably have had more blow ups than others. Like I said you have more opportunity based on where you live compared to me and others here. I on the other hand am fairly hands off and have had a few people read my exit letter and leave the church and much without my promptings, or with just the offering of my link; including my own sister whom I never suspected had an inkling of doubt before she started posting here and told me of her new apostate status and in thanks part to my exit letter, which I only sent once over 2 years ago.
.
I don't agree with going out and trying to deconvert others away from Mormonism, but if I see an opportunity I would take a chance, no matter how many times I've been "burned" because you never know. But again, that's just ME.
 
I've got no problem with that approach, although I'd hesitate to put anything in writing that could be used against in min a court of love, especially if I was still a member of the Mormon church, unless I wanted to pull off a masterful move like you, and tell them all off right before I fired them, before they fired me. 
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Delusion: a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.


   


Posted: 10 March 2010 01:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]   

   
 
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Jammerwoch
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Lilith:
I guess I'd do it for me more than them, LOL I want someone else to talk to about this stuff in person and not just online in a seemingly virtual world. Yes, we have a Michigan chapter and all, but when some people have to drive 2-4 hours to gather in one location, it doesn't make for a very large group gathering, let alone something we can do on a monthly basis either. We already had a big fall out this past December with some militants getting upset that not everyone in the group was as "anti" Mormon as them and were still going to church. UGH that was ugly.
 
 This is so sad.  Our group in SoUt has a diverse mix, some still go to church, most do not, but no one tries to strong-arm anyone to change their behavior.  We even have three group leaders who are married to TBM's.
 
A  couple of years ago we had an audience of almost 100 attend a "diversity" panel, with a number of professionals from biology, psychology, sociology explain why homosexuality is neither abnormal nor perverse.  We lost a handful of homophobes, mostly bigots (who have not been missed), including one old German Nazi named Adolph!
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The Church is always trying to get other people to reform; it might not be a bad idea to reform itself a little by way of example.
    —Mark Twain in A Tramp Abroad


   


Posted: 10 March 2010 10:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]   

   
 
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The PRofit
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Jammerwoch:  
 That would open up a big can of worms, since past prophets are also considered to be mouthpieces of God.  Once we debunk them, the door is open to questioning living prophets, and where would that lead???
 
So far the strategy seems to be to ignore the past and hope it just goes away.  But with the internet and people like you that isn't working so well any more.  You insist on dredging up all these unhappy details and holding the feet of LDS Inc to the fire!  
 
That's the problem with an institution that idolizes 'authority' and pretends that it is on loan straight from God.
 
They're incapble of admitting that the only one at the helm of the church was a feeble minded old man, who was acting anything but Christlike. 
 
God was nowhere to be found when Brigham Young decided to interpret Christ's main commandment to, "Love your fellow man as yourself" to mean, "Love your fellow man as yourself, unless they've got black skin, which is a sign that they're cursed by God. Then demonize them so you can enslave them and discriminate against them."
 
It just amazed me when Mike Wallace asked GBH why the church discriminated against blacks for most of its' history and GBH's answer was that it was, incredulously, "because that's how the leaders back then interpretted the scriptures."
 
The obvious follow up question would have been, 
 
Really? How do you interpret "Love your fellow man as yourself" to mean, "Love your fellow man as yourself, unless they've got black skin, which is a sign that they're cursed by God. Then demonize them so you can enslave them and discriminate against them."? 
 
 
 
 
 
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Delusion: a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.


   


Posted: 10 March 2010 11:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]   

   
 
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gullible's travels
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Kori:
Jammerwoch:  
 That would open up a big can of worms, since past prophets are also considered to be mouthpieces of God.  Once we debunk them, the door is open to questioning living prophets, and where would that lead???
 
So far the strategy seems to be to ignore the past and hope it just goes away.  But with the internet and people like you that isn't working so well any more.  You insist on dredging up all these unhappy details and holding the feet of LDS Inc to the fire!  
 
That's the problem with an institution that idolizes 'authority' and pretends that it is on loan straight from God.
 
They're incapble of admitting that the only one at the helm of the church was a feeble minded old man, who was acting anything but Christlike. 
 
God was nowhere to be found when Brigham Young decided to interpret Christ's main commandment to, "Love your fellow man as yourself" to mean, "Love your fellow man as yourself, unless they've got black skin, which is a sign that they're cursed by God. Then demonize them so you can enslave them and discriminate against them."
 
It just amazed me when Mike Wallace asked GBH why the church discriminated against blacks for most of its' history and GBH's answer was that it was, incredulously, "because that's how the leaders back then interpretted the scriptures."
 
The obvious follow up question would have been, 
 
Really? How do you interpret "Love your fellow man as yourself" to mean, "Love your fellow man as yourself, unless they've got black skin, which is a sign that they're cursed by God. Then demonize them so you can enslave them and discriminate against them."? 
 
 
 
 
 
 I thought that same thing!  I wonder how much TITHING MONEY the church paid for that 'PR' -it wasn't PR it was advertising.  Mike Wallace embarrased himself and tarnished is journalistic record by 'asking the tough questions' -if you can call it that.  But again, never pressing further or asking what would be integral follow-ups.  
 
I remember watching that as a TBM with wonderment and amazement at our dear, dear prophet.  Now I see, smell, and taste the fear in his eyes as there are no answers to any of these questions.
 
And what about Gladys Knight!  Man, I'm so embarrased for her too.  To be a public figure not only in a cult, but in a racist cult!  How did this happen to her?
 
In response to if you should or shouldn't say anything, I don't think there is anything wrong with lending support and letting some one know you are there for them.  Of course it has the chance to be misenterpretted and could possibly blow up in your face -this is TSCC we're dealing with here, it always stands that chance. 
 
But if it were me, I would feel just as uneasy knowing someone might truly need my support in the face of what they're going through, and I, out of fear of rejection, couldn't or wouldn't lend it.  I agree with others that it does not need to be overt or pushy.  And it doesn't need to be about you, it is about them. 
 
Shouldn't that kind of support feel validating to them in their current position?  Doesn't everyone like that, need that, crave that?
 


   


Posted: 10 March 2010 11:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Just remember, video tape can be altered...we really don't know for sure if Mike Wallace didn't ask further questions...but the editing process left it on the cutting room floor because it may have been repeating the same mantra over and over.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 10 March 2010 11:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler
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gullible&#;s travels:
Kori:
Jammerwoch:  
 That would open up a big can of worms, since past prophets are also considered to be mouthpieces of God.  Once we debunk them, the door is open to questioning living prophets, and where would that lead???
 
So far the strategy seems to be to ignore the past and hope it just goes away.  But with the internet and people like you that isn't working so well any more.  You insist on dredging up all these unhappy details and holding the feet of LDS Inc to the fire!  
 
That's the problem with an institution that idolizes 'authority' and pretends that it is on loan straight from God.
 
They're incapble of admitting that the only one at the helm of the church was a feeble minded old man, who was acting anything but Christlike. 
 
God was nowhere to be found when Brigham Young decided to interpret Christ's main commandment to, "Love your fellow man as yourself" to mean, "Love your fellow man as yourself, unless they've got black skin, which is a sign that they're cursed by God. Then demonize them so you can enslave them and discriminate against them."
 
It just amazed me when Mike Wallace asked GBH why the church discriminated against blacks for most of its' history and GBH's answer was that it was, incredulously, "because that's how the leaders back then interpretted the scriptures."
 
The obvious follow up question would have been, 
 
Really? How do you interpret "Love your fellow man as yourself" to mean, "Love your fellow man as yourself, unless they've got black skin, which is a sign that they're cursed by God. Then demonize them so you can enslave them and discriminate against them."? 
 
 
 
 
 
 I thought that same thing!  I wonder how much TITHING MONEY the church paid for that 'PR' -it wasn't PR it was advertising.  Mike Wallace embarrased himself and tarnished is journalistic record by 'asking the tough questions' -if you can call it that.  But again, never pressing further or asking what would be integral follow-ups.  
 
I remember watching that as a TBM with wonderment and amazement at our dear, dear prophet.  Now I see, smell, and taste the fear in his eyes as there are no answers to any of these questions.
 
And what about Gladys Knight!  Man, I'm so embarrased for her too.  To be a public figure not only in a cult, but in a racist cult!  How did this happen to her?
 
In response to if you should or shouldn't say anything, I don't think there is anything wrong with lending support and letting some one know you are there for them.  Of course it has the chance to be misenterpretted and could possibly blow up in your face -this is TSCC we're dealing with here, it always stands that chance. 
 
But if it were me, I would feel just as uneasy knowing someone might truly need my support in the face of what they're going through, and I, out of fear of rejection, couldn't or wouldn't lend it.  I agree with others that it does not need to be overt or pushy.  And it doesn't need to be about you, it is about them. 
 
Shouldn't that kind of support feel validating to them in their current position?  Doesn't everyone like that, need that, crave that?
 
 
Well no kidding!  You would not believe how screwed over this guy is.  I mean now he has to explain to his two TEENAGE daughters that the reason they don't go to church anymore is .........is................like "well, remember kids when we talk about racism and our ancestors and slavery and discrimination and MLK......um well, our church was racist and was the last major religion to extend......here are a few quotes......i know, they are pretty bad, no i had no idea really......are we still going to be together forever?.........um well,....."....i mean how is that supposed to go?
 
This is why i really hate the church.
 
 Signature
They say that I am crazy
My life wasting on this road
That time will find my dreams
Scared or dead and cold
But I heard there is a light
Drawing me to reach an end
And when I reach there, I’ll turn back
And you and I can begin again

200 More Miles
Cowboy Junkies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SwJM5yohb0


   


Posted: 10 March 2010 11:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]   

   
 
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The PRofit
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Lloyd Dobler:  
Well no kidding!  You would not believe how screwed over this guy is.  I mean now he has to explain to his two TEENAGE daughters that the reason they don't go to church anymore is .........is................like "well, remember kids when we talk about racism and our ancestors and slavery and discrimination and MLK......um well, our church was racist and was the last major religion to extend......here are a few quotes......i know, they are pretty bad, no i had no idea really......are we still going to be together forever?.........um well,....."....i mean how is that supposed to go?
 
  This is why i really hate the church.  
 
We had two mixed race couples move into our ward at the same time. The two white LDS sisters both married black husbands who converted to the church for them and moved into the ward together. I became friends with both of the men since our kids were the same age and we coached them in basketball and football together. 
 
I used to wonder how they could sign up for Mormonism, given the past history, which we discussed often in Elder's Quorum and after church and when we'd meet during the week outside of church. 
 
Thing is, they didn't know the half of it. I had a friend who did an exhaustive chronology of LDS racism, which contained all the quotes and any significant historical data in regards to LDS racism. I shared this with my black friends, both of whom were devastated.  One of them came up to me with a shell shocked look on his face, handed me the copy of the chronology back and said, "If I didn't have a strong testimony of the church, I'd walk away right now and never come back." 
 
I just thought, "If this clear racism is really offensive to people like my black friend, why should the fact that my skin is white make any difference in whether or not I find it offensive?"
 
It shouldn't. 
 
Hell yeah I'm offended.
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Delusion: a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.


   


Posted: 10 March 2010 11:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler
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Kori:
Lloyd Dobler:  
Well no kidding!  You would not believe how screwed over this guy is.  I mean now he has to explain to his two TEENAGE daughters that the reason they don't go to church anymore is .........is................like "well, remember kids when we talk about racism and our ancestors and slavery and discrimination and MLK......um well, our church was racist and was the last major religion to extend......here are a few quotes......i know, they are pretty bad, no i had no idea really......are we still going to be together forever?.........um well,....."....i mean how is that supposed to go?
 
  This is why i really hate the church.  
 
We had two mixed race couples move into our ward at the same time. The two white LDS sisters both married black husbands who converted to the church for them and moved into the ward together. I became friends with both of the men since our kids were the same age and we coached them in basketball and football together. 
 
I used to wonder how they could sign up for Mormonism, given the past history, which we discussed often in Elder's Quorum and after church and when we'd meet during the week outside of church. 
 
Thing is, they didn't know the half of it. I had a friend who did an exhaustive chronology of LDS racism, which contained all the quotes and any significant historical data in regards to LDS racism. I shared this with my black friends, both of whom were devastated.  One of them came up to me with a shell shocked look on his face, handed me the copy of the chronology back and said, "If I didn't have a strong testimony of the church, I'd walk away right now and never come back." 
 
I just thought, "If this clear racism is really offensive to people like my black friend, why should the fact that my skin is white make any difference in whether or not I find it offensive?"
 
It shouldn't. 
 
Hell yeah I'm offended.
 
I don't know how that guy did the math on that.  It seems pretty cut and dry.  I mean Jesus is not a racist.  His prophets from at least BY to Lee were racists and the church institutionalized racist doctrine (maybe not mckay).  So either jesus wanted his church to be racist or the church is not true......
 Signature
They say that I am crazy
My life wasting on this road
That time will find my dreams
Scared or dead and cold
But I heard there is a light
Drawing me to reach an end
And when I reach there, I’ll turn back
And you and I can begin again

200 More Miles
Cowboy Junkies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SwJM5yohb0


   


Posted: 10 March 2010 11:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]   

   
 
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howdimissthat
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gullible&#;s travels:
Kori:
Jammerwoch:  
 That would open up a big can of worms, since past prophets are also considered to be mouthpieces of God.  Once we debunk them, the door is open to questioning living prophets, and where would that lead???
 
So far the strategy seems to be to ignore the past and hope it just goes away.  But with the internet and people like you that isn't working so well any more.  You insist on dredging up all these unhappy details and holding the feet of LDS Inc to the fire!  
 
That's the problem with an institution that idolizes 'authority' and pretends that it is on loan straight from God.
 
They're incapble of admitting that the only one at the helm of the church was a feeble minded old man, who was acting anything but Christlike. 
 
God was nowhere to be found when Brigham Young decided to interpret Christ's main commandment to, "Love your fellow man as yourself" to mean, "Love your fellow man as yourself, unless they've got black skin, which is a sign that they're cursed by God. Then demonize them so you can enslave them and discriminate against them."
 
It just amazed me when Mike Wallace asked GBH why the church discriminated against blacks for most of its' history and GBH's answer was that it was, incredulously, "because that's how the leaders back then interpretted the scriptures."
 
The obvious follow up question would have been, 
 
Really? How do you interpret "Love your fellow man as yourself" to mean, "Love your fellow man as yourself, unless they've got black skin, which is a sign that they're cursed by God. Then demonize them so you can enslave them and discriminate against them."? 
 
 
 
 
 
 I thought that same thing!  I wonder how much TITHING MONEY the church paid for that 'PR' -it wasn't PR it was advertising.  Mike Wallace embarrased himself and tarnished is journalistic record by 'asking the tough questions' -if you can call it that.  But again, never pressing further or asking what would be integral follow-ups.  
 
I remember watching that as a TBM with wonderment and amazement at our dear, dear prophet.  Now I see, smell, and taste the fear in his eyes as there are no answers to any of these questions.
 
And what about Gladys Knight!  Man, I'm so embarrased for her too.  To be a public figure not only in a cult, but in a racist cult!  How did this happen to her?
 
In response to if you should or shouldn't say anything, I don't think there is anything wrong with lending support and letting some one know you are there for them.  Of course it has the chance to be misenterpretted and could possibly blow up in your face -this is TSCC we're dealing with here, it always stands that chance. 
 
But if it were me, I would feel just as uneasy knowing someone might truly need my support in the face of what they're going through, and I, out of fear of rejection, couldn't or wouldn't lend it.  I agree with others that it does not need to be overt or pushy.  And it doesn't need to be about you, it is about them. 
 
Shouldn't that kind of support feel validating to them in their current position?  Doesn't everyone like that, need that, crave that?
 
 
The church is also using her, though I'm sure she would disagree.  She does concerts with a very mormon missionary effort flavor to them, referrals and all.  My friend's son is on in mission where Gladys Knight is coming to do a concert.  Her son is afraid he will be transferred just before and he won't see the fruits of that PR concert.  She is being used as a tool.


   


Posted: 10 March 2010 11:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler
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howdimissthat:
gullible&#;s travels:
Kori:
Jammerwoch:  
 That would open up a big can of worms, since past prophets are also considered to be mouthpieces of God.  Once we debunk them, the door is open to questioning living prophets, and where would that lead???
 
So far the strategy seems to be to ignore the past and hope it just goes away.  But with the internet and people like you that isn't working so well any more.  You insist on dredging up all these unhappy details and holding the feet of LDS Inc to the fire!  
 
That's the problem with an institution that idolizes 'authority' and pretends that it is on loan straight from God.
 
They're incapble of admitting that the only one at the helm of the church was a feeble minded old man, who was acting anything but Christlike. 
 
God was nowhere to be found when Brigham Young decided to interpret Christ's main commandment to, "Love your fellow man as yourself" to mean, "Love your fellow man as yourself, unless they've got black skin, which is a sign that they're cursed by God. Then demonize them so you can enslave them and discriminate against them."
 
It just amazed me when Mike Wallace asked GBH why the church discriminated against blacks for most of its' history and GBH's answer was that it was, incredulously, "because that's how the leaders back then interpretted the scriptures."
 
The obvious follow up question would have been, 
 
Really? How do you interpret "Love your fellow man as yourself" to mean, "Love your fellow man as yourself, unless they've got black skin, which is a sign that they're cursed by God. Then demonize them so you can enslave them and discriminate against them."? 
 
 
 
 
 
 I thought that same thing!  I wonder how much TITHING MONEY the church paid for that 'PR' -it wasn't PR it was advertising.  Mike Wallace embarrased himself and tarnished is journalistic record by 'asking the tough questions' -if you can call it that.  But again, never pressing further or asking what would be integral follow-ups.  
 
I remember watching that as a TBM with wonderment and amazement at our dear, dear prophet.  Now I see, smell, and taste the fear in his eyes as there are no answers to any of these questions.
 
And what about Gladys Knight!  Man, I'm so embarrased for her too.  To be a public figure not only in a cult, but in a racist cult!  How did this happen to her?
 
In response to if you should or shouldn't say anything, I don't think there is anything wrong with lending support and letting some one know you are there for them.  Of course it has the chance to be misenterpretted and could possibly blow up in your face -this is TSCC we're dealing with here, it always stands that chance. 
 
But if it were me, I would feel just as uneasy knowing someone might truly need my support in the face of what they're going through, and I, out of fear of rejection, couldn't or wouldn't lend it.  I agree with others that it does not need to be overt or pushy.  And it doesn't need to be about you, it is about them. 
 
Shouldn't that kind of support feel validating to them in their current position?  Doesn't everyone like that, need that, crave that?
 
 
The church is also using her, though I'm sure she would disagree.  She does concerts with a very mormon missionary effort flavor to them, referrals and all.  My friend's son is on in mission where Gladys Knight is coming to do a concert.  Her son is afraid he will be transferred just before and he won't see the fruits of that PR concert.  She is being used as a tool.
 
I would be shocked if they were not paying her big time.
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Posted: 11 March 2010 12:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler:
<<snipped>> 
 
And what about Gladys Knight!  Man, I'm so embarrassed for her too.  To be a public figure not only in a cult, but in a racist cult!  How did this happen to her?
 
 
She got Pipped.  
 

Enough said...
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Posted: 11 March 2010 12:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]   

   
 
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The PRofit
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Lloyd Dobler:  
I don't know how that guy did the math on that.  It seems pretty cut and dry.  I mean Jesus is not a racist.  His prophets from at least BY to Lee were racists and the church institutionalized racist doctrine (maybe not mckay).  So either jesus wanted his church to be racist or the church is not true......
 
Yeah, I dunno. I didn't really get into the math with him. 
He'd had some really spiritual experience that confirmed to him that the crutch was true, independent of all reason. I didn't ask what it was.
 
I presume he was affraid of the implications of admitting the truth, that he'd probably end up divorced and austricized from his new community, which he was dependent upon for his support for his large LDS family.
 
This is the same guy who told me when I left that what we had was Utopia which I screwed up by leaving. Then he turned around and screwed his wife's best friend, who was also in our ward, which really screwed up his family and the ward.
 
I was just glad I was long gone by that point so I didn't have to deal with all of that drama.
 
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Posted: 11 March 2010 12:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]   

   
 
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howdimissthat
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Lloyd Dobler:
howdimissthat:
gullible&#;s travels:
Kori:
Jammerwoch:  
 That would open up a big can of worms, since past prophets are also considered to be mouthpieces of God.  Once we debunk them, the door is open to questioning living prophets, and where would that lead???
 
So far the strategy seems to be to ignore the past and hope it just goes away.  But with the internet and people like you that isn't working so well any more.  You insist on dredging up all these unhappy details and holding the feet of LDS Inc to the fire!  
 
That's the problem with an institution that idolizes 'authority' and pretends that it is on loan straight from God.
 
They're incapble of admitting that the only one at the helm of the church was a feeble minded old man, who was acting anything but Christlike. 
 
God was nowhere to be found when Brigham Young decided to interpret Christ's main commandment to, "Love your fellow man as yourself" to mean, "Love your fellow man as yourself, unless they've got black skin, which is a sign that they're cursed by God. Then demonize them so you can enslave them and discriminate against them."
 
It just amazed me when Mike Wallace asked GBH why the church discriminated against blacks for most of its' history and GBH's answer was that it was, incredulously, "because that's how the leaders back then interpretted the scriptures."
 
The obvious follow up question would have been, 
 
Really? How do you interpret "Love your fellow man as yourself" to mean, "Love your fellow man as yourself, unless they've got black skin, which is a sign that they're cursed by God. Then demonize them so you can enslave them and discriminate against them."? 
 
 
 
 
 
 I thought that same thing!  I wonder how much TITHING MONEY the church paid for that 'PR' -it wasn't PR it was advertising.  Mike Wallace embarrased himself and tarnished is journalistic record by 'asking the tough questions' -if you can call it that.  But again, never pressing further or asking what would be integral follow-ups.  
 
I remember watching that as a TBM with wonderment and amazement at our dear, dear prophet.  Now I see, smell, and taste the fear in his eyes as there are no answers to any of these questions.
 
And what about Gladys Knight!  Man, I'm so embarrased for her too.  To be a public figure not only in a cult, but in a racist cult!  How did this happen to her?
 
In response to if you should or shouldn't say anything, I don't think there is anything wrong with lending support and letting some one know you are there for them.  Of course it has the chance to be misenterpretted and could possibly blow up in your face -this is TSCC we're dealing with here, it always stands that chance. 
 
But if it were me, I would feel just as uneasy knowing someone might truly need my support in the face of what they're going through, and I, out of fear of rejection, couldn't or wouldn't lend it.  I agree with others that it does not need to be overt or pushy.  And it doesn't need to be about you, it is about them. 
 
Shouldn't that kind of support feel validating to them in their current position?  Doesn't everyone like that, need that, crave that?
 
 
The church is also using her, though I'm sure she would disagree.  She does concerts with a very mormon missionary effort flavor to them, referrals and all.  My friend's son is on in mission where Gladys Knight is coming to do a concert.  Her son is afraid he will be transferred just before and he won't see the fruits of that PR concert.  She is being used as a tool.
 
I would be shocked if they were not paying her big time.
 
 I have seen an add to purchase tickets for a concert by the mo-tab choir, put on in another state.  That won't happen in Utah, I think people would be very surprised to know the church charged for a mo-tab concert.  I also wouldn't be surprised if she gets paid. 


   


Posted: 11 March 2010 12:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]   

   
 
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jackfitzzzzz
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Kori:
Lloyd Dobler:  
I don't know how that guy did the math on that.  It seems pretty cut and dry.  I mean Jesus is not a racist.  His prophets from at least BY to Lee were racists and the church institutionalized racist doctrine (maybe not mckay).  So either jesus wanted his church to be racist or the church is not true......
 
Yeah, I dunno. I didn't really get into the math with him. 
He'd had some really spiritual experience that confirmed to him that the crutch was true, independent of all reason. I didn't ask what it was.
 
I presume he was affraid of the implications of admitting the truth, that he'd probably end up divorced and austricized from his new community, which he was dependent upon for his support for his large LDS family.
 
This is the same guy who told me when I left that what we had was Utopia which I screwed up by leaving. Then he turned around and screwed his wife's best friend, who was also in our ward, which really screwed up his family and the ward.
 
I was just glad I was long gone by that point so I didn't have to deal with all of that drama.
 
 
Fortunately, we don't have any drama here at PostMo...  
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“Well, that’s my .02 cents and believe me, it’s worth every penny.”
 


   


Posted: 11 March 2010 12:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]   

   
 
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jackfitzzzzz:  
Fortunately, we don't have any drama here at PostMo...  
Don't tell me there's wife swapping going on here too! Say it isn't so!
 
Is nothing sacred? 
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Posted: 11 March 2010 12:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]   

   
 
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Grape Nephi
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Kori:
jackfitzzzzz:  
Fortunately, we don't have any drama here at PostMo...  
Don't tell me there's wife swapping going on here too! Say it isn't so!
 
Is nothing sacred? 
 
 No wife swapping. Just husband swapping.
 
 
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Just when you think racism in the church does not matter much anymore…....  
Posted: 11 March 2010 12:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]   

   
 
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Grape Nephi:
Kori:
jackfitzzzzz:  
Fortunately, we don't have any drama here at PostMo...  
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Don’t hold your breath waiting for LDS Inc to apologize for its obvious racism.  
Posted: 19 December 2013 11:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Mormon, Corbin Volluz, wrote a good article on Rational Faiths, Why No Apology for Priesthood Ban?
 
Basically saying that the suicidal oath Mormons make in the temple to "Speak no evil of the Lords annointed" is the reason behind LDS Inc's bizzare essay on Blacks and the Priesthood, which is missing the most important thing, a GD apology. 
 
My response, 
 
-
I agree for the most part, that an apology for Mormon racism to those most affected by it, is long overdue, but what good is an apology when Mormon racism is alive and well, in the present and in the future as long as Mormon leaders lack the moral courage to correct Mormon scriptures, which are far more racist than any other scriptures?
The whole premise of the Book of Mormon (and Mormonism) is based upon 19th Century racist myths that Native Americans were really a cursed race of wandering Jews, who came to “The Promised Land” and degenerated into savages, so it’s ok with the God of Mormonism, to take their land and that Africans were cursed by God with the “Curse of Cain” thus making it perfectly ok with the God of Mormonism to enslave them?
Mormon scriptures are full of racism, still, to this day. Correcting that error in judgement, seems to me to be almost impossible without killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.
Until these racist notions are removed from every set of Mormon scriptures, an apology is meaningless and racism will remain alive and well in the Mormon church, passed down from one generation to the next, behind closed doors, like it was with my children. Trying to correct those racist 19th Century myths, was grounds for discipline when I was a Mormon, for the first 40 years of my life, up until 9-11-01, when it became clear to me there was no “Prophet” who could reveal God’s intentions on 9-11.
“…the Lord shall curse the land with much heat…and there was a blackness (2) came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.” (Moses 7:8)
“And Enoch also beheld …the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it were the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not a place among them.” (Moses 7:22)
“Now this king of Egypt was a descendant from the loins of Ham, and was a partaker of the blood of the Canaanites by birth. From this descent sprang all the Egyptians, and thus the blood of the Canaanites was preserved in the land. The land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is forbidden. When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons in it; and thus, from Ham sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land…” (Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 1:21-24, 26c)
The Mormon Church’s racist doctrine of preexistence also finds its roots in The Pearl of Great Price:
“…he [God] said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou was chosen before thou wast born…And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate…” (Abraham 3:23, 26)
“…after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations.” (I Nephi 12:23)
“…Behold, they had hardened their hearts against him…wherefore, as they were white, and exceeding fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their sins.” (2 Nephi 5:21-22)
“And the skins of the Lamanites(4) were dark…which was a curse upon them because of their transgression against their brethren…therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a mark upon them. And this was done that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their brethren, that thereby the Lord God might preserve his people…” (Alma 3:6,8)
“And then shall they [Lamanites] rejoice…and their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and delightsome people” (2 Nephi 30:6, 1830, 1920, and 1977 editions) 
 
 
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on what she does to help abuse victims, escape the prison of faith which she escaped, barely


   


Posted: 19 December 2013 11:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Celestial Wedgie
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Amen!
 
I think you're right on both counts, Kori.  (1) They will never apologize.  In fact, they can't.  (2) Racism is woven throughout Mormonism's foundational texts.


   


Posted: 19 December 2013 11:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie:
Amen!
 
I think you're right on both counts, Kori.  (1) They will never apologize.  In fact, they can't.  (2) Racism is woven throughout Mormonism's foundational texts.
 
 And that's the big gaping hole in the slave ship we were born onto, the S.S. Joseph's Myth, which is taking on water faster than the bilge pumps can keep up. 
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Delusion: Maintaining strong belief in something, despite superior evidence to the contrary.”
“As long as they believe absurdities, they’ll commit atrocities.” Voltaire
“I cause cognitive dissonance, which will either drive them insane, or drive them sane. I hope for the latter, which is all I can do.”  Ayan Hirsi Ali
on what she does to help abuse victims, escape the prison of faith which she escaped, barely


   


Posted: 19 December 2013 11:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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LOL!   

   


            
 
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Should gay/Lesbians stand up and leave or remain mormon??  
Posted: 31 May 2013 08:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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carsonhill
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Now here at Post mo we have a different breed perhaps.  Likely those who are here and posting may be more at the stage of voicing their beliefs, many whom have left the church; those who don't by nature want to be completely silent etc.. same with ex mo sites..
 
but we've seen recent videos of mormons coming out as gay and remaining mormon.  Just coming out and encouraging others to stay active while gay etc...  
 
Now I'll admit this is a hot little topic but the reason I ask it is recently I've been doing some apartment shopping and that includes searching new houses and rooms.  Today I spoke to a gal I met in a department store and we got talking.  I mentioned I'd been room shopping and that its always interesting.  She said she lives with a guy and is paying rent on a room.  I was curious if she was married to him or dating and she said no because he is gay.  I said oh thats cool. 
 
Then we got talking about alcohol after that and she said she doesn't drink as much cause she doesn't feel comfortable around him and his boyfriend drinking.  When I asked why, she said it's because they are both mormon and practicing, other than the gay/dating thing of course.  I said oh so he is gay and still attending church.  She said yes and that his boyfriend is over all the time but they don't drink and won't accept any of those drinks so she just avoids it around them.  She said they are not rude but they just live the church standards other than being gay. Hugh, I thought..
 
Later I found an add for a room to rent that mentioned gay but mormon so they wanted someone gay friendly that abide by church standards.
 
Just kind of got me thinking.  I am in no position to judge because I am not gay but obviously quite vocal about gay rights because I feel strongly it reflects my rights, as i'm represented in the whole.  Also I am offended that the church fought so hard for something that went against what I'd consider equal rights for all.. that being funding of prop 8 etc..
 
So part of me wants to say that if you are gay and mormon, don't try and live by the church standards and attend church while being gay long term, instead embrace what your church has done and the falty altering of doctrine due to societal pressures it calls "revelations."
 
and leave and explain why you left to not stand for something that lies and covers up...
 
But another argument I hear is that it is good that gay church members are coming open while still being in church cause it encourages others to have the courage to at least do the same, instead of living the deep suppressive alternative, which is horrible.  I mean if it prevents suicide and that type of suppression Id be all for it. 
 
I just still don't like the idea that the church can just adapt (being a flip floper) like its done with blacks etc, and just later say being gay is ok because it would never own up to the bull shit its done.. 
 
But then again this is how the church functions, based on lies isn't it..? LOL..  On one hand I hate that members would support the gay adaption as it progresses because it wouldn't hold the church accountable; on the other hand I want gay members to not be in the dark suppression that hurts them and any outlet of that seems better than the alternative.
 
So is it good gays are coming out while remaining members.  Is that progress of a kind?  or by remaining active members and coming out gay are they feeding the fire that is a deceptive, adaptive organization with a tainted history and pattern of embodying lies and deceit?
 
Any Postmo Gay/Lesbian thoughts welcome as are others, no matter what stage you're in.  What are your thoughts on the matter if any ??


   


Posted: 31 May 2013 09:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Youngsinglerunning
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I'm not gay but i attended a "same sex attraction" conference while at BYU with this guy.    http://www.joshweed.com/  The famous gay guy who married a woman and has a family.  Honestly i wanted to hate him...but he made a choice and in the nature of acceptance i respect his choice.  he loves his wife and it sounds like they have a good thing going.
 
 However there were other couples there where their marriage "worked".  In other-words these Mormon woman convinced themselves they were "happy" and saw lots of therapist.   Then men were also miserable but that is what marriage is all about right???
 
So I am tyring very very hard to respect the idea of people staying Mormon. I want to be open minded. I think if they choose to stay Mormon and it works for them do it.  i hope they are doing it because they like the lifestyle because we all know the sludge of the morg.  In being open-minded it is important to allow people accept people doing thing that make no since to you.   
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Posted: 31 May 2013 09:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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Sorry, I just can't past the fact that the best sex demands the full participation of the available faculties.  Love and lust can and should go hand in hand.  Yeah, I know you can enjoy having just one (usually lust) without the other, but when you get to have both, there is no comparison, after the climax. Prior to, the endorphins are all cooking up a great storm, but after the endorphin fountain closes, and you open your eyes, that's when love makes such a huge difference.  At least that's been my experience.  Sex can be great fun, but loving your sexual partner, and being loved in return, is pretty darn good. 
 
So how does Josh Weed do it?  (And I ask this in the generic, not about him specifically.) I gather that there is the possibility that he is bi, so maybe it's that simple; he can lust after his wife, as well as love her.  But what about a straight gay, (that sounds funny, huh?)  a person with pure same sex attraction.  It makes no sense that a 'pure' gay person can lust after, get hot for, a member of the other sex.  So for the full effect of both the endorphin fountain and that after glow, resting in the arms of the loved one, you have to break a TSCC commandment and lose your ticket to the CK.
 
And that makes no sense, unless you're brain washed.  How can two Mormon gay men be boyfriends?  No sex, of course, but can they kiss?  Can they cuddle?  Can they go to a Gold & Green Ball together?  Can they sit in Sacrament meeting, snuggled together, touching, holding hands?  Logically, they would refuse to live together, just as any two unmarried TBMs in love would avoid such a situation.  But think back when you were dating and how you acted with your boy/girlfriend at church.
 
If I were a bishop (with all the discernment that accompanies the calling) I woud be telling the boys that ghawd has set them a challenge and that he wouldn't have done so unless he had made them strong enough to surmont it.  (Yeah, that really worked well for masturbation...)  Say the guys were in their 20s...  How in the hell could a bishop look them in the eyes and tell them to go their entire lives without the complete fulfillment that love + lust affords?
 
And when is the No Sex Outside of Marriage commandment broken by gays and lesbians?  Can they kiss?  Can they make out, pet, dry hump?  When do gays & lesbian cross the line?  Has TSCC published a standard?
 
That TSCC is getting away with keeping gays paying tithing is a testament to the motivation that is greed.  And if the boys/girls slip up, hey, they just have to repent, try again to keep on the straight and narrow, and keep paying their tithing.  It's all good, from TSCC's point of view.    
 


   


Posted: 01 June 2013 07:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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It works for some.   Doesn't work for a whole lot of others.  That one group or the other insists that THIS is the way it should work is where we are off.
I couldn't imagine a marriage where I wasn't sexually attracted to the core of what my spouse is.  But then, the core of what he's made up of is more than male.  Then I don't want marriage without sex as one of the bonds that takes priority.  Others find their intimacy in other arenas of life.
 
What Josh and Lolly Weed have works for them.  Marriage is unique between two people. Sexuality is unique to the person. Religion begins and ends as a personal journey.  Anyone can share or not share these aspects of life and what they do doesn't have to work for me.  It's the discussion of these topics that is important.
I have a friend who is so damned conservative, and religious, and celibate, and so gay and out of the closet.  He's an enigma but right now, his path works for him.  It's not up to me to tell him different.  I don't tell him what to do and think, he doesn't tell me what to do or think.  At the very least who he is has given him that perspective...that he has no right to dictate the terms to a personal life anymore than anyone else does.  
 
 
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Posted: 01 June 2013 08:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Heretic
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I know a gay single Mormon who is not out of the closet, although I imagine many people suspect he is gay. He has told me of the pain that he suffers. Things would just be worse for him if he came out, so there is no point in him doing it. I asked him why he stays in the church and whether or not he has issues with church doctrine on this matter. He is very unhappy about the church's stance on homosexuality, and it tears him up inside, but he believes the church is true. So he must stay Mormon, and he must stay in the closet.
Stupid church. 

   


Posted: 01 June 2013 09:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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The simplest but truest answer is they should decide for themselves.  Just like everyone here decided for themselves what they were getting out of it and if that was enough and when it was no longer helpful and if the cost of leaving was too high.  The eleventh article of faith applies to a whole lot of life whether you're LDS or not or gay or straight or whatever.   Don't you think?


   


Posted: 01 June 2013 10:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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At some point...gay members will get mighty tired of "reproduction" stories of Celestialized humans....and not having their significant others as celestial partners in the after life. Their shunning will continue no matter how "sweet" their ward/stake is. They will feel the ostracizing keenly.
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Posted: 01 June 2013 10:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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I've given a lot of thought to this in a way.  As a black man I considered the good it would do to stay in the church.  I thought it might do good for others to see a "good black mormon example".  
 
Although my experience and learning told me the church is not true, I considered "dying to self" and walking the higher road that benefited others.
 
I like what was said above earlier about can they kiss, hold hands, snuggle in sacrament, etc?  This gets to the heart of the problem.  The daily logistics of living in a culture which (at its core) rejects the very nature of who you are.  A unique aspect of yourself that you cannot change. 
 
If you live around cool, weird, loose, democratic Mormons, you might be able to have an awesome experience.  Conversely if you live with ridged, square, uppity Mormons that buy into the doctrine of you being spiritually inferior because of who you are, damn!  What an awful life.
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Posted: 01 June 2013 07:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Curious NeverMo:
The simplest but truest answer is they should decide for themselves.  Just like everyone here decided for themselves what they were getting out of it and if that was enough and when it was no longer helpful and if the cost of leaving was too high.  The eleventh article of faith applies to a whole lot of life whether you're LDS or not or gay or straight or whatever.   Don't you think?
 
 Yes. Surely the Mormon GLBT community has enough oppression to deal with without us chiming in to tell them how to settle their personal conflicts. I think there is something to said for for either choice -- but it is problem when it is weighed by outsiders.
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Posted: 01 June 2013 07:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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I am not going to support a church who spends Millions to stop a right every person should have and that is to marry who they love and want to marry. I have friends who I know for a fact are gay, but they are married, have kids, and live a life and lie in absolute fear of what would happen if the came out. 

   


Posted: 01 June 2013 08:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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I have a hard time seeing why a gay person would want to remain a Mormon, but that's because I'm an apostate because of doctrinal reasons.  If I still believed and were gay, I'd take some comfort in that it appears the church is fast approaching a "don't ask/don't tell" sort of position.  They are being forced by cultural changes to do that.  It's not ideal, but better than it has been,
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Posted: 01 June 2013 10:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Even though I am a gay man myself, every person's experience is different; every person's idea of happiness is different, and I wouldn't want to tell others what they *should* do. 
But I do want to share some thoughts on the topic.
As difficult as it's been for the church to continue its anti-gay stance due to public and internal pressure, I think they are going to have an even harder time with the more relaxed position, because of the questions raised by Elder Old Dog and others above.  The church is not good with grey areas and this is a step in the grey direction.  Will it be OK for two gay people to hold hands in church? Can they hug?  Certainly not kiss (or can they?)  I think it will be a LONG LONG time before the church sanctions gay sexual relationships or same-sex marriages.  So if you're gay and thinking of staying in the church, you may want to consider whether celibacy for the rest of your life sounds appealing. 
As for the other approach to being gay and staying mormon - the Josh Weed approach, where you DO get to have sex, but it's with the gender you're not naturally attracted to... well, I think that would be another difficult choice. 
To answer the question of how it's even possible...
Straight men in prison sometimes turn to other men for sex, even though they are not attracted to men.  Because the sexual drive is strong and that's all that's available.  They use what's available. 
I think it is the same for mormon married gay men.  Their wives are "all that's available". 
Just like men in prison immediately return to heterosexuality when released, I think mormon married gay men would follow their natural sexuality if they were released from the prison of mormon doctrine. 
On the question of staying in the church, again a very personal decision.  But I would be concerned about staying in an organization that teaches that you are "less than" because of who you are.  LGBT, women, free thinkers - all are both openly and subtly told they are less.  
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Posted: 02 June 2013 04:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Props to the many Mormons who showed up for SLC's Pride Parade including Mormons Building Bridges and the couple interviewed on the ABC4 news who admitted they skipped church to go but considered it the Christian thing to do -- plus good for their kids.
 
It doesn't answer the question, but it warms my heart.
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Posted: 02 June 2013 04:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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I recently met another woman who was the cousin from one of my old friends from YW's. We met at my friend's birthday party, and at one point she and I started talking about LGBTQ movement vs. the LDS church. I told her that one of the major reasons I was leaving the church was because I'm a lesbian, and I learned that she herself was bisexual, but she had chosen to supress it and live a straight life. I've chosen to leave because I don't appreciate TSCC's severe anti-LGBTQ politics, but she told me that she believe's TSCC is changing and becoming more accepting. She's still a strong member, even about to serve a mission. 
 
I think that it's not my place to tell her what she should do with her life. Personally, I think it's only a matter of time before she leaves, because she's a very open-minded person, and pretty liberal, especially compared to the rest of her TBM family. However, if she chooses to live the rest of her life in a straight marrage within the church, then that's her choice and who am I to complain?
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Posted: 03 June 2013 08:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Happy Guy
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I think Dave (e_nomo) is right that the church is not good with grey areas and they have introduced a big grey area with relaxing their stance towards gays.
 
With the scouting program in particular, since they now claim to welcome gay scouts as long as they are chaste, what's going to happen over time when gay teens come out, stay chaste, stay believing, and want to serve missions when they are 18? Is the church going to deny gay members the opportunity of serving a mission even when they believe and have lived the standards of the church? I think a lot of members would be uncomfortable with that because they'd think it would be inappropriate for an openly gay missionary to be living with another person of the same sex. It'll be interesting to see how the church handles this, because it's going to happen soon.
  
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“Black Mormons See Lingering Prejudice…”  
Posted: 09 June 2013 01:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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thewriterwithin
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And Huffington Post Religion continues to rock. I have become addicted and need my daily dose.
 
For the 35th anniversary of giving men of African descent the priesthood, this even-handed yet incisive piece from Peggy Fletcher Stack at the Trib, long may her banner wave:
 
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/07/black-mormons-see-lingering-prejudice-35-years-after-ban-on-blacks-in-priesthood-ended_n_3405191.html?utm_hp_ref=religion
 
 
I think she could have included some quotes from people of color who have left the church because of racism, but other than that, it is good. And I wonder if that might not have taken the article in another direction so should be saved for another article?
 
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Posted: 09 June 2013 01:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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thewriterwithin:
And Huffington Post Religion continues to rock. I have become addicted and need my daily dose.
 
For the 35th anniversary of giving men of African descent the priesthood, this even-handed yet incisive piece from Peggy Fletcher Stack at the Trib, long may her banner wave:
 
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/07/black-mormons-see-lingering-prejudice-35-years-after-ban-on-blacks-in-priesthood-ended_n_3405191.html?utm_hp_ref=religion
 
 
I think she could have included some quotes from people of color who have left the church because of racism, but other than that, it is good. And I wonder if that might not have taken the article in another direction so should be saved for another article?
 
 
 As to your observation, noted above, I think it would have taken the article in the direction of the Truthiness of LD$, Inc., in that racism was forcing believers to forego the blessings of the restored gospel.  I'm glad the editors (if it was their decision) kept the matter along the more sociological track.
 
This quote slayed me:
 
“For me,” former church President Gordon B. Hinckley said on the day’s 10th anniversary, “it felt as if a conduit opened between the heavenly throne and the kneeling, pleading prophet of God who was joined by his brethren.”
 
...not to mention the attorneys working to save TSCC's tax exempt status, and the PR firms working to save TSCC's image.  And notice that he didn't say it did open, just that it was 'as if' the conduit had opened.  
 
But people who want to believe something don't care how poorly reasoned an argument is, so long as its conclusion supports their conclusion.
 


   


Posted: 09 June 2013 02:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Interesting article -- thanks for posting.  I agree -- including people who left because of racism would shift the focus of the article and turn it into something else.
 
The part about BYU and sports reminded my of Neil deGrasse Tyson's biography.  He was continually asked whether he was on a sports scholarship, was always invited to join the sports teams and was often shunted away from astrophysics to something more "suitable."  He and I are about the same age, so it was kind of shocking to hear that this went on during my lifetime in academia.   
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Posted: 09 June 2013 02:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Why would those who were 'less valiant' in the pre-existence think they would gain sudden respect with a change in policy? We know the reason it changed - BYU football and basketball faced cancellation of games because of the racist policies of L-d$,inc. It is all about the money.
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Posted: 10 June 2013 09:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Kori
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thewriterwithin:
And Huffington Post Religion continues to rock. I have become addicted and need my daily dose.
 
For the 35th anniversary of giving men of African descent the priesthood, this even-handed yet incisive piece from Peggy Fletcher Stack at the Trib, long may her banner wave:
 
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/07/black-mormons-see-lingering-prejudice-35-years-after-ban-on-blacks-in-priesthood-ended_n_3405191.html?utm_hp_ref=religion
 
 
I think she could have included some quotes from people of color who have left the church because of racism, but other than that, it is good. And I wonder if that might not have taken the article in another direction so should be saved for another article?
Why should the color of their skin matter? 
I left, in part, because of racism and I'm as white as the driven snow.
I caught myself asking, about a couple of Brother's in my EQ, who married white Mormon sisters in our ward, "How in the world can they justify being Members of the church, knowing it's history of racism." 
 
I just thought about how racist that was. If it's objectively wrong to discriminate against people based upon the color of their skin, then shouldn't  we be just as offended by racism when we encounter it, as if we were black, even though we're members of the privilaged class? 
 
Then I thought, Yes, it should be offensive to me!  If it's offensive to anybody outside of this all white Mormon Sunday School Classroom, it should be offensive to me. I looked around after one particularly racist statement made by a Stake High Councilman, to see if anybody else was as offended as me, and nobody returned my look of shock and horror. I realized I was not in my tribe. I was an outsider, and I could see the faith I'd inherited objectively for the first time and it was as ugly as sin.
 
At that point I realized the racism was just part and parcel of an institution my forefathers had built up to serve the exclusive heirarchy of white, straight, all male 'authorities', who had become VERY dishonest, abusive and exploitative.
As it turned out my black brothers had no clue about the racism of the past and once they found out, thanks to me, they all went inactive. 
 
STake President wasn't real happy with me about that, but then again, he told one of my best friends to not expect an apology from anybody in the church for the racism he'd encountered, because it was divinely inspired, proving once again that the God of Mormonism is a racist, homophobic, misogynist, power hungry bastard.  
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Posted: 10 June 2013 10:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Last week I listened to Tom Phillips' podcast with John Dehlin again. It's long, but well worth the time. One of the things he said really startled me. Apparently in England there were wards where the only aaronic priesthood holders were black, due to the high immigrant baptism rates. He said that the white members of that ward would refuse sacrament blessed and administered by black priests & deacons, and would hold their own sacrament meeting later in somebody's home, with white people officiating.
 
That absolutely disgusts me. To say there is no racism in the church is to say there is no misogyny in the church. Some people may believe that there is none, but they are all TBMs with their blinders on.
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Posted: 10 June 2013 10:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Do any of you pre-1978 missionaries remember specific instructions regarding what to do when you knocked on a door and it was answered by member of the so called African/Negro/Black race?  
 
I've searched my memory and can't remember anything except that the first time this happened with my first companion, he smoothly asked, "Hi, we're looking for (phony name)."  The lady said there was no one there by that name, and he said, "perdona la molestia" and she said, "no hay de que." and we turned and walked away.
 
In processing what had just happened, I factored in all the years of the teaching I'd received about the 'cursed for fence sitting' and the 'less than valiant' doctrines and concluded that we weren't to 'waste' our time on such people when there were 'more worthy' individuals out there just waiting for us.
 
When I became a senior companion, I passed along this behavior to my juniors; it was a self-perpetuating strategy...
 
There is no doubt in my mind that TSCC had a basis for its pre-1978 racism; ghawd did not want Blacks to be treated as 'first class' offspring because they had earned a punishment.  And when I heard about the 1978 "revelation", I asked myself, Did the last of the 'deserved to be punished' offspring finally die?  Meaning that ghawd had been sending down 'first class' offspring to be housed in 'second class' bodies...?
 
The whole affair lacked grace, intelligence and logic.  In other words, it was business as usual for survival of a cult. 


   


Posted: 10 June 2013 11:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Sunbeep
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Elder OldDog:
Do any of you pre-1978 missionaries remember specific instructions regarding what to do when you knocked on a door and it was answered by member of the so called African/Negro/Black race?  
 
I've searched my memory and can't remember anything except that the first time this happened with my first companion, he smoothly asked, "Hi, we're looking for (phony name)."  The lady said there was no one there by that name, and he said, "perdona la molestia" and she said, "no hay de que." and we turned and walked away.
 
In processing what had just happened, I factored in all the years of the teaching I'd received about the 'cursed for fence sitting' and the 'less than valiant' doctrines and concluded that we weren't to 'waste' our time on such people when there were 'more worthy' individuals out there just waiting for us.
 
When I became a senior companion, I passed along this behavior to my juniors; it was a self-perpetuating strategy...
 
There is no doubt in my mind that TSCC had a basis for its pre-1978 racism; ghawd did not want Blacks to be treated as 'first class' offspring because they had earned a punishment.  And when I heard about the 1978 "revelation", I asked myself, Did the last of the 'deserved to be punished' offspring finally die?  Meaning that ghawd had been sending down 'first class' offspring to be housed in 'second class' bodies...?
 
The whole affair lacked grace, intelligence and logic.  In other words, it was business as usual for survival of a cult. 
    Yes, Elder Olddog I remember specific instructions during my dark years of knocking doors. If we were to encounter a black person, we were to be polite and end the contact as quickly as possible. We were told not to teach or share the gospel in any way, but to simply move on to the next door or contact. I don't recall if we were told why to do this, only that we weren't supposed to teach them.
 
   Having been raised in a tight, white, TBM community where there were only two families who were not morgbots, and no families of color, this didn't seem too over-the-top for me at the time. After all, we were the Elite ones who had the only truth.
 
   While on this topic, the only brown people I seen during my growing up years were the Native American Indians who worked the fields for the farmers during the Summer. As kids we were told to avoid them or even talk to them. However I did make friends with a couple of them who were on some kind of placement program sponsored by the morg church.
 
    Of course this isn't my view today, but then my eyes have been opened and I see the world much differently now.
 

 


   


Posted: 10 June 2013 01:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog:
Do any of you pre-1978 missionaries remember specific instructions regarding what to do when you knocked on a door and it was answered by member of the so called African/Negro/Black race?  
 
I've searched my memory and can't remember anything except that the first time this happened with my first companion, he smoothly asked, "Hi, we're looking for (phony name)."  The lady said there was no one there by that name, and he said, "perdona la molestia" and she said, "no hay de que." and we turned and walked away.
 

 
 I was on a Spanish-speaking mission in California in the early 70's.  I'm not sure if we were instructed to do this, but in our mission when we tracted out a Black person/family, we would invite them to attend our church meetings.  Of course as far as I know, that never happened, so we didn't have to worry about what to do next.
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Posted: 10 June 2013 09:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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dave (e_nomo)
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Elder OldDog:
Do any of you pre-1978 missionaries remember specific instructions regarding what to do when you knocked on a door and it was answered by member of the so called African/Negro/Black race?  
 
I've searched my memory and can't remember anything except that the first time this happened with my first companion, he smoothly asked, "Hi, we're looking for (phony name)."  The lady said there was no one there by that name, and he said, "perdona la molestia" and she said, "no hay de que." and we turned and walked away.
 
In processing what had just happened, I factored in all the years of the teaching I'd received about the 'cursed for fence sitting' and the 'less than valiant' doctrines and concluded that we weren't to 'waste' our time on such people when there were 'more worthy' individuals out there just waiting for us.
 
When I became a senior companion, I passed along this behavior to my juniors; it was a self-perpetuating strategy...
 
There is no doubt in my mind that TSCC had a basis for its pre-1978 racism; ghawd did not want Blacks to be treated as 'first class' offspring because they had earned a punishment.  And when I heard about the 1978 "revelation", I asked myself, Did the last of the 'deserved to be punished' offspring finally die?  Meaning that ghawd had been sending down 'first class' offspring to be housed in 'second class' bodies...?
 
The whole affair lacked grace, intelligence and logic.  In other words, it was business as usual for survival of a cult. 
I don't remember getting official instructions, but I think we also had a passed-down tradition  If a black person answered the door, we would politely hand them a brochure and move on.  
 
I've told the story a couple of times here, about a woman we (missionaries) were teaching/visiting.  She had 2 young sons from her current marriage, and 1 tween son from her first marriage.  Her first husband was a black African and that son looked like his dad.  She asked us how she could explain to her son why his half-brothers could have the priesthood and he couldn't.  It was one of the most cog-dissy moments I ever had.  Somehow when it's a real person (particularly a real child), the "less valient" stuff just does not fly.  
 
As to the article in the OP, the thing I find missing is acknowledgement that there still exists plenty of racism in the BoM and other scripture.  The church loves to say that was all in the past, move on.  But it's NOT all in the past.  It's in the current scriptures. 
 
They also like to say that nobody knows the reason for the ban, and they imply that it was just a tradition and not a doctrine.  But then why did it require a revelation to change it??
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Posted: 11 June 2013 12:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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One of the many 'How did I miss that?" moments of my postmo journey, was when someone discussed the nonsense of valiance in the pre-existence.
 
We were taught that we had to come to this Earth to exercise that magical property promised, but rarely if ever sighted in Mormondumb - agency. Yet, wars and references to being valiant or not, in the preexistence, made it very clear that 'souls' were making choices, aka exercising agency prior to arriving in this mortal realm.
 
Yet, like a good little brain-dead mMorgbot, that completely escaped me.
 
Smith created the BoM from within a culture that held certain toxic and judgemental attitudes to blacks, so that belief permeates it's pages. It is therefore written all through attitudes not just to blacks, but also to American Indians.
And the idea of having someone to 'look down on' help a deep psychological appeal to a people, many of whom were formerly Europe's poor. 
 
Daryl 
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Posted: 11 June 2013 11:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Kori
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Born Free:
One of the many 'How did I miss that?" moments of my postmo journey, was when someone discussed the nonsense of valiance in the pre-existence.
 
We were taught that we had to come to this Earth to exercise that magical property promised, but rarely if ever sighted in Mormondumb - agency. Yet, wars and references to being valiant or not, in the preexistence, made it very clear that 'souls' were making choices, aka exercising agency prior to arriving in this mortal realm.
 
Yet, like a good little brain-dead mMorgbot, that completely escaped me.
 
Smith created the BoM from within a culture that held certain toxic and judgemental attitudes to blacks, so that belief permeates it's pages. It is therefore written all through attitudes not just to blacks, but also to American Indians.
And the idea of having someone to 'look down on' help a deep psychological appeal to a people, many of whom were formerly Europe's poor. 
 
Daryl 
Asking, "How'd I miss that?" has been the most important question to answer, on my journey out of the Cave of Joseph's Myth I was born into. 
Honestly, I wanted it to be true, because it would have connected me to my Mormon relatives, ancestors and posterity, in ways that nothing else really could, since that was the faith we shared. I hoped it was true, so I did what Alma 32 recommended, I experimented on the word. I excercised faith and cast out all of my doubts, which was an easy thing to do at the time, hell, I had my pick of hot Molly Mormons at BYU, if I came back an RM!
That motivation alone, loomed huge to me on my mission and prevented me from really resolving my serious doubts I had in the face of adversity. I couldn't go back and admit defeat, hell, my Molly Mormon girlfriend wouldn't have anything to do with me if I admitted defeat and couldn't defend the faith of my Fathers. So I did. I dug down and brought out every last ounce of anything I could muster to convince potential converts that Joseph's Myth was the greatest thing to happen to mankind since JC!
It didn't work. They didn't buy it. They questioned it, except for the desperate and gullible ones. They bought it, because they didn't have a hell of a lot of other options. 
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Growing number of people leaving the church.  
Posted: 23 February 2013 01:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
from the 5th wife
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Joined  2012-09-02
 
  
 
   This may be a dumb statement but I have to ask.  
I am fairly new to the seemingly popular and ever growing group of people that are becoming disenfranchised with the mormon church.  I am still going to church out of fear of having my business blackballed and fear of how others will treat us and our kids.
 
So my question is;  is there truly a growing movement that is leaving the church or am I just becoming aware of the community?   Where do poeple get the numbers or statistics or proof of all of these people leaving the church?
 
Is it becomming less and less "cool" to be a mormon or is it just my perception?
 
I have defended the mormon church all of my life. I am a BIC, RM sealed in the temple 5th generation mormon and now the next time someone asks me if I really believe that I can become a God, or any of the other questions mormons get, I will have to be honest and say "yea I agree, it is a bunch of crap" or "you're right, that just does not make any sense".  I cannot defend the church any more. PERIOD
 
It seems that the next big move will be to have increasing post mormon meetups.  this movement will really take off when it begins to be "cool" to be an ex mormon, and as a whole, people will be less afraid of being seen outside without their gaments (so to speak)


   


Posted: 23 February 2013 02:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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wesmanlv
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from what i have seen and heard it appears that the church is in a spiral of decline - YAY. The Pew Research information seen here shows that the mormon church has experienced 0% change from 2007-2012 - that means no growth and no decline - or in other words, the growth is keeping even with the defections. How long before the defections outpace the growth? hopefully soon. I am delighted when i log in here and see folks like you who are newly discovering what a fraud mormonism is. 
 
the cult that was to fill the whole earth like a rolling stone cut without hands has only ever claimed .02% of the world population and now is experiencing 0 growth - i'm not sure that speaks well for god's plan - hey even a modest marketing mailing campaign usually attracts a 2% response.  
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Posted: 23 February 2013 04:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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HakunaMatata
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Welcome 5th Wife...would love to support your business.  I understand that you may not want to post it on this site, but you could send it in a pm.
 
Maybe someone could start a category of Post Mo businesses, i know Wes has a shop in Las Vegas, but I can't remember what it's called.
 
Terry
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Posted: 23 February 2013 05:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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wesmanlv
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HakunaMatata:
Welcome 5th Wife...would love to support your business.  I understand that you may not want to post it on this site, but you could send it in a pm.
 
Maybe someone could start a category of Post Mo businesses, i know Wes has a shop in Las Vegas, but I can't remember what it's called.
 
Terry
 
 Get Booked - proudly offering sexy underwear for former (male) magic underpants sporters. :-) hahahaha
 
and currently offering the new novel "Companion" and the rainbow attachment for the Duty to God award. :-) 
 
just goes to show what a cult tscc really is that they can manage to destroy businesses - they are just plain evil!! 
 
 
 
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Posted: 23 February 2013 06:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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MyDearBrothers&Sisters
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Assuming that these numbers are correct, I found this pretty compelling: http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/pomopedia/Church_Activity_and_Growth/ It makes sense to look at the stake growth because that gives a more accurate picture of "true" growth. The Salt Lake Tribune has written quite a bit about loss and retention it's pretty easy to find on google. This thread takes a crack at figuring out how many, but it's really impossible. It ends up with people jousting about why they didn't resign and I think that's the long and short of it. Most people don't resign. They might eventually, but it's just prettying effing hard to do so. I'm resigning tomorrow and freaking out a little bit. Not so much about the resignation itself, but because it's going to blindside everyone that I love and it's hard for me to hurt them, but in the end I think it's for the best. I think most people leave gradually to prevent parent's heart attacks. Also, we are taught to be conflict-avoidant in our culture and thus we take most of our aggression out online and stay silent in the real world. I'm trying to get over this. Fortunately, my wife is pretty good at it. But yes, there are a lot of people here and elsewhere and the numbers grow daily. We are also a lot better at retaining our members. tongue wink 

   


Posted: 23 February 2013 06:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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MyDearBrothers&Sisters:
Assuming that these numbers are correct, I found this pretty compelling: http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/pomopedia/Church_Activity_and_Growth/ It makes sense to look at the stake growth because that gives a more accurate picture of "true" growth. The Salt Lake Tribune has written quite a bit about loss and retention it's pretty easy to find on google. This thread takes a crack at figuring out how many, but it's really impossible. It ends up with people jousting about why they didn't resign and I think that's the long and short of it. Most people don't resign. They might eventually, but it's just prettying effing hard to do so. I'm resigning tomorrow and freaking out a little bit. Not so much about the resignation itself, but because it's going to blindside everyone that I love and it's hard for me to hurt them, but in the end I think it's for the best. I think most people leave gradually to prevent parent's heart attacks. Also, we are taught to be conflict-avoidant in our culture and thus we take most of our aggression out online and stay silent in the real world. I'm trying to get over this. Fortunately, my wife is pretty good at it. But yes, there are a lot of people here and elsewhere and the numbers grow daily. We are also a lot better at retaining our members. ;-P
 
 What a Great Point!  Come to think of it, we don't see a lot of PostMo's saying they are leaving because they found out PostMormon.org is not what they thought it was.  Just realized what a strong testimony I have of PostMormon.org and that it is exactly what it says it is! 
 
Wonder what would happen if I show up at a local ward on fast Sunday and walk up to the podium and say, "I have a testimony that PostMormon.org is exactly what it says it is and is an organization which shares truth and by doing so is changing the world--one member at a time.  I also have a testimony that Jeff Ricks is a super hero beneath that cute squirrel suit and every day I thank God that he had the courage to start PostMormon.org.  I say this in the name of good old fashioned integrity.  Amen!
 
I just might do that someday!


   


Posted: 23 February 2013 07:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
from the 5th wife
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Joined  2012-09-02
 
  
 
HakunaMatata:
Welcome 5th Wife...would love to support your business.  I understand that you may not want to post it on this site, but you could send it in a pm.
 
Maybe someone could start a category of Post Mo businesses, i know Wes has a shop in Las Vegas, but I can't remember what it's called.
 
Terry
 Also I have found that being an active mormon is good for business.  We recently won a bid and the customer said that he chose us because we were good members and that we would pay tithing on the money he gave us and the money would be used to build the kingdom of God.   If he only new that I am planning to send some money to my new kingdom; Post mormon.org. 
 
Hey wes. since I have ditched the G's I am feeling powerfull, do you sell superman underwear in a size 34
 


   


Posted: 23 February 2013 09:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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peace out
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Their was a presentation here about a week ago about activity rates. The church members number may be stagnant but activity rates have been dropping for the last 6 years or so.
Youth retention is an area of real decline thus the early missions to get them before they have time to think and become independent from their families. They indicated that the church is loosing their best and brightest and it's building. More people learning and leaving.  The trend seems to be growing. Real growth has not slowed I believe it's actually going backwards and backwards in 1st world countries, the source of the churches wealth. I would bet that it's worse than known given that the church hides anything negative.
 
That's my guess anyway


   


Posted: 23 February 2013 11:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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It's my estimation that these "best & brightest" who are leaving TSCC are not sending in detailed resignation letters.  I bet a lot of what the Big 15 are getting are anecdotal stories from the hinterlands, but they're from trusted sources.  I seriously doubt that TSCC has specific numbers for how man "best & brightest" were lost in calendar 2012 from each stake in the 1st World church.
 
Here's my story, from 2012:  I was interviewing a Cal State Northridge senior and boy friend about something totally unchurchy.  I didn't know she was LDS and she had no idea I was/had been.   She finally mentioned being LDS.  Since I knew she was unmarried and living with her boy friend, I mentioned that it was obvious she wasn't TBM.  (I had to explain that...)  She casually mentioned that she'd enjoyed growing up in the church but that she'd outgrown it, as had her sisters and all her cousins.  She said that they'd all just moved on.  No drama, no put downs.  It just didn't fit them anymore.
 
There will probably always be some kids on whom the brain washing really takes hold.  Maybe there's a personality type that needs or appreciates 'churchiness'?  But because all the contradictory evidence that TSCC would like to ignore is now readily available, those who appreciate truth and dislike lies, now have an avenue of escape that is getting wider and runs downhill.  It's so much easier getting out, and the vacuum left is sucking more people to the window to look out at the real world.
 
Going to heaven, to the Celestial Kingdom, is no longer the draw it may have once been. 


   


Posted: 24 February 2013 06:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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scarles
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As exciting as it would be to watch tscc crumble and fall, don't get too excited over it, or you'll just be expressing the other side of the millenial expectation coin.
 
At least for now, unfortunately, the demise of the church is greatly exaggerated.
 
However, we can usher in a thousand year reign of non-deism, when god shall be bound and have no infuence over a gullble people. Just bear your testimony of historical truth and critical thinking as often as possible. For remember, in the mouths of two or three atheists, shall every word of truth shall be established.
 
Go forth my friends, without Gucci or Euros, and spread the word!
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Faith means not wanting to know what is true. — Nietzsche


   


Posted: 24 February 2013 08:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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carsonhill
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From personal perspective and observation, it seems to me that the internet and information readily available today along with athiest debates and movements, make it much easier to leave the church in this time.
 
 
Hell, this forum makes it easier.
 
Not long ago, if someone wanted to "KNOW," they'd have to go digging deep in church publications in some hidden cave of the church building somewhere; or so it sounds to those who had to do the digging.  lol
 
Now they can check the internet for things they're having doubts with.  They can listen to debates on youtube.
 
Yes it's a dangerous world when
 
"ANTI-MORMON LITERATURE" becomes "POSSIBLE VALID POINTS"
 
I think the internet is contributing as much to the decrease if not more than it is to the increase of church membership.  I have not data for this.  It just seems when supperior arguments are more readily available, the higher validity of those arguments will reign.


   


Posted: 24 February 2013 10:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
Ex_aedibus
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In some countries like Mexico, religious preference is included on the census.  In the 2000 Census, the Mexican government reported that 205,229 people reported that they were Mormon.  The LDS church claimed 846,931 members in Mexico in 2000.  I'm not sure what they're claiming now, but the increase of members in ten years was very slight.
 
 http://packham.n4m.org/morexmos.htm
 
According to a report of the National Institute of Statistics and Geography (known by its Spanish initials as INEGI), only 314,932 claimed to be Mormon.  Cumorah.com gives a stastic of 1,021,252.  That isn't much of an increase for the world's "fastest growing religion"™®
 
For those who can read Spanish, I'm putting up the link to the 2010 report on religious affiliation done by INEGI.  Very interesting stuff.
 
http://www.inegi.org.mx/prod_serv/contenidos/espanol/bvinegi/productos/censos/poblacion/2010/panora_religion/religiones_2010.pdf
 
Another way we could see how many members the church is losing is by how many people work in Membership Records processing name removal requests.  I've heard they have more staff than they used to.
 


   


Posted: 24 February 2013 11:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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wesmanlv
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Elder OldDog:
It's my estimation that these "best & brightest" who are leaving TSCC are not sending in detailed resignation letters.  I bet a lot of what the Big 15 are getting are anecdotal stories from the hinterlands, but they're from trusted sources.  I seriously doubt that TSCC has specific numbers for how man "best & brightest" were lost in calendar 2012 from each stake in the 1st World church.
 
Here's my story, from 2012:  I was interviewing a Cal State Northridge senior and boy friend about something totally unchurchy.  I didn't know she was LDS and she had no idea I was/had been.   She finally mentioned being LDS.  Since I knew she was unmarried and living with her boy friend, I mentioned that it was obvious she wasn't TBM.  (I had to explain that...)  She casually mentioned that she'd enjoyed growing up in the church but that she'd outgrown it, as had her sisters and all her cousins.  She said that they'd all just moved on.  No drama, no put downs.  It just didn't fit them anymore.
 
There will probably always be some kids on whom the brain washing really takes hold.  Maybe there's a personality type that needs or appreciates 'churchiness'?  But because all the contradictory evidence that TSCC would like to ignore is now readily available, those who appreciate truth and dislike lies, now have an avenue of escape that is getting wider and runs downhill.  It's so much easier getting out, and the vacuum left is sucking more people to the window to look out at the real world.
 
Going to heaven, to the Celestial Kingdom, is no longer the draw it may have once been. 
 
 such a concept - i love reading this...over and over and over. I imagine it is becoming more and more common.
 
All my siblings are out and i'd have to say my sister - the last to leave- fits this example.
 
THAT SAID....i think it is important to make sure these folks know the truth about the church they've outgrown - i would hate for them to go back in ten years when they settle down and become family oriented and decide they want a church to go to - - "mormon worked for me growing up so let me raise my kids there" syndrome. 
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Posted: 24 February 2013 12:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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Sunbeep
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   Every now and then I go to Nevada for a diversion of sorts. Sometimes I play the slots, mostly I go for the entertainment, have a few beers in public, and indulge in a killer buffet. 
 
   When I do play the slots, (GAMBLE), I have a pre-set amount that I'm willing to lose and then I'm done. Usually it's around $40. While I slowly lose this amount of money, I win too. It's possible that I will win $10 and then lose $10. If I add up all my winnings, I might have won hundreds of dollars. Yet, in all honesty, I've not won anything at all, but lost $40.
 
    This is how the church tallies up it's membership. It doesn't count the losses, only the gains. It might win a few thousand members, and then it stops calculating. 
 
   This will never change, admitting defeat is too difficult. What amuses me is the percentage of active members in a ward. From what I read, it's around 30%. That is a horrible percentage. When I was in a bishoprick I heard many times from the bish how frustrating it was to have to rely on only a few members who would accept callings.  As an experiment he called lots of inactive members to teach primary, sunday school, even be counselors. I don't think he was very successful and it showed me that he wasn't so inspired, but more desperate. 


   


Posted: 24 February 2013 03:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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GraciesDaddy
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carsonhill:
   
From personal perspective and observation, it seems to me that the internet and information readily available today along with athiest debates and movements, make it much easier to leave the church in this time.
 
Hell, this forum makes it easier.
 
Not long ago, if someone wanted to "KNOW," they'd have to go digging deep in church publications in some hidden cave of the church building somewhere; or so it sounds to those who had to do the digging.  lol
 
Now they can check the internet for things they're having doubts with.  They can listen to debates on youtube.
 
Yes it's a dangerous world when
 
"ANTI-MORMON LITERATURE" becomes "POSSIBLE VALID POINTS"
 
I think the internet is contributing as much to the decrease if not more than it is to the increase of church membership.  I have not data for this.  It just seems when supperior arguments are more readily available, the higher validity of those arguments will reign.
 
I offer my own, full-throated agreement to carsonhill's observation(s)!  The Internet, once you wade through all the Alex Joneses and other such nutbags, brings much of this world's vast knowledge within reach of our fingertips... and our smart phones, tablets, desktops and laptops.  
 
It's interesting that this topic would come up here when my FB friend, Justin Rosario, posted an article on his blog, "The Internet Is Where Conservative Ideas Go To Die," which was based on this video, "The Internet: Where Religions Come To Die."  It's likely the best 11 minutes you'll spend this week.  Yes, "Mr. Diety" has a couple of clips, as do some Shia Muslims and the Scientologists are mentioned... But the thrust of the whole video is that, with the existence of the 'net allows people to filter the BS of religion and possibly discover just what This Life is all about.  
 
The BOTTOM LINE:  No matter what, TSCC is going to claim that they are growing by leaps and bounds... While simultaneously, the more visible "ex-mo" organizations are going to claim shrinkage; perhaps not at the same rate of the percieved "growth," but shrinkage, nonetheless.  What is important is that YOU and ONLY you have decided that Joseph's Myth is not for you and will no longer dance to its tune.
 
Cue: George Michael. 
 
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The above post is merely the experience, observation and perspective of a NeverMo, offered in support of the members of PostMormon.org

“Nolite te bastardes carborundorum” aka: “Don’t let the bastards grind you down.” — “The Handmaid’s Tale” ...Margaret Atwood

“Nearly 7 billion people on the planet, hurting one person’s feelings really isn’t a big deal. You’ll find other friends. Better ones that won’t try to force feed you pig shit.” — General Smith



   


Posted: 24 February 2013 04:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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wesmanlv
Long Timer
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Joined  2009-01-11
 
  
 
Sunbeep:
   Every now and then I go to Nevada for a diversion of sorts. Sometimes I play the slots, mostly I go for the entertainment, have a few beers in public, and indulge in a killer buffet. 
 
   When I do play the slots, (GAMBLE), I have a pre-set amount that I'm willing to lose and then I'm done. Usually it's around $40. While I slowly lose this amount of money, I win too. It's possible that I will win $10 and then lose $10. If I add up all my winnings, I might have won hundreds of dollars. Yet, in all honesty, I've not won anything at all, but lost $40.
 
    This is how the church tallies up it's membership. It doesn't count the losses, only the gains. It might win a few thousand members, and then it stops calculating. 
 
   This will never change, admitting defeat is too difficult. What amuses me is the percentage of active members in a ward. From what I read, it's around 30%. That is a horrible percentage. When I was in a bishoprick I heard many times from the bish how frustrating it was to have to rely on only a few members who would accept callings.  As an experiment he called lots of inactive members to teach primary, sunday school, even be counselors. I don't think he was very successful and it showed me that he wasn't so inspired, but more desperate. 
 
 being in nevada - i can tell you, that is a great strategy - not one that the casinos would endorse though.
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Posted: 24 February 2013 05:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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Born Free
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Joined  2005-01-07
 
  
 
wesmanlv:
Elder OldDog:
It's my estimation that these "best & brightest" who are leaving TSCC are not sending in detailed resignation letters.  I bet a lot of what the Big 15 are getting are anecdotal stories from the hinterlands, but they're from trusted sources.  I seriously doubt that TSCC has specific numbers for how man "best & brightest" were lost in calendar 2012 from each stake in the 1st World church.
 
Here's my story, from 2012:  I was interviewing a Cal State Northridge senior and boy friend about something totally unchurchy.  I didn't know she was LDS and she had no idea I was/had been.   She finally mentioned being LDS.  Since I knew she was unmarried and living with her boy friend, I mentioned that it was obvious she wasn't TBM.  (I had to explain that...)  She casually mentioned that she'd enjoyed growing up in the church but that she'd outgrown it, as had her sisters and all her cousins.  She said that they'd all just moved on.  No drama, no put downs.  It just didn't fit them anymore.
 
There will probably always be some kids on whom the brain washing really takes hold.  Maybe there's a personality type that needs or appreciates 'churchiness'?  But because all the contradictory evidence that TSCC would like to ignore is now readily available, those who appreciate truth and dislike lies, now have an avenue of escape that is getting wider and runs downhill.  It's so much easier getting out, and the vacuum left is sucking more people to the window to look out at the real world.
 
Going to heaven, to the Celestial Kingdom, is no longer the draw it may have once been. 
 
 such a concept - i love reading this...over and over and over. I imagine it is becoming more and more common.
 
All my siblings are out and i'd have to say my sister - the last to leave- fits this example.
 
THAT SAID....i think it is important to make sure these folks know the truth about the church they've outgrown - i would hate for them to go back in ten years when they settle down and become family oriented and decide they want a church to go to - - "mormon worked for me growing up so let me raise my kids there" syndrome. 
 
I have have little direct contact with my TBM sibling's children, but looking at their FB pages, I see body piercings, sleeveless tops and short dresses, and attitudes that seem too broad to be comfortable with the narrowness of Church thinking.
 
Some are even obviously drinking.
My sense is that the vast majority are gonesky! The only ones still apparently active are children of the most staunch parents, and who are still dependent and young.
My concern with this 'drifting out' is one I have expressed before. I have observed former members who drift out like this, that their Mormon worldview lives on inside them, and deep down inside, there maintaining a belief that the Church is OK; just that they couldn't make it work for them.
That is a toxic and limiting script to leave undeconstructed deep down in your psyche.
With that in place, there is a risk when they partner and have children, they will return to the fold in the belief that it is 'a good environment in which to raise children'.
 
Daryl 
 
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‘Our life is the creation of our minds, and we do much of that creating in metaphor…. With the wrong metaphor we are deluded; with no metaphor we are blind. ’ Jonathan Haidt
‘and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl


   


Posted: 25 February 2013 10:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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In December of 2011, Elder Marlon K Jensen, who was at the time a member of the 1st quorum of the 70 and church historian (has since been given "emeritus" status) said that the church is facing its largest apostasy since Kirtland.
 
Yes, an active, serving member of the 70, a general authority, made that admission. He did not back it up with any numbers, but from other things we've heard here over the last year (i.e. the "Swedish Rescue", the petition from members in England), things ARE happening and SLC is not happy. Look at the reduction in missionary age... keeping kids 100% tied to the church's apron strings. No time between high school and misison. Mission presidents actively recruit for church schools. No time to be on their own, to find their own identity, to find out other viewpoints. The church wants it so that kids are sucking at its teat from cradle to marriage and beyond.
 
Is this evidence that the church is crumbling? Absolutely not. But it's the beginning. It's the leak in the dike. Get ready for the postmo flood. Maybe not in this generation, maybe not the next, but it's coming. 
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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


            
 
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Official response to the passing of Nelson Mandella  
Posted: 12 December 2013 08:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Life Rocks
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I don't get to this site very often any more. A few weeks ago the discussion included a thread about how the Church was putting up on their website "answers" to some of the troubling questions, particularly about past beliefs about "black people and a history of institutional racism". 
 
I checked the Church's official site and they're now trying to say that any past references to racism are wrong and that Heavenly Father loves all of his children.
 
I thought it interesting that the First Presidency has come out with an official statement regarding te passing of Nelson Mandella.
 
The First Presidency released the following statement today in regards to the passing of Nelson Mandela:

"With the rest of the world, we mourn the passing of revered statesman Nelson Mandela. His courage, kindness and extraordinary moral leadership have been an example to all people. We express our love and sympathies to his family and the people of South Africa as they remember his extraordinary life."
 
I wondered if the First Presidency actually thought of this on their own or if this was just a product of the Public Relations department knowing that in order to keep up an image they needed to have an "official statement". I doubt that the First Presidency wrote this at all.
 
Given some of the GA's have grown up with a racist history, I wonder if they're gagging over the statement and collectively saying..."Do we have to?"
 
Like someone else said, "It must suck to be an Apostle in the age of the internet." Instant information. I recall being taught as a convert that these "special witnesses" were being led by the Saviour from moment to moment, even speaking regularly to him "face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend". It's no wonder that the Church leaders don't say anything publicly other than carefully scripted speeches and repeat the same stuff over and over.  
 
I remember years ago as a young father wishing I could get my kids to participate in Church. Now I'm hoping they don't go on missions though this might help them see the Church for what it is.
 
As more and more things are exposed to the membership about other troublesome topics, I can only hope my kids will come to recognize their dad, who has been shunned and ridiculed for seeing this stuff first, was not such an apostate after all.


   


Posted: 12 December 2013 08:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Life Rocks:
 
I wondered if the First Presidency actually thought of this on their own or if this was just a product of the Public Relations department knowing that in order to keep up an image they needed to have an "official statement". I doubt that the First Presidency wrote this at all.
 
I agree with you that it was written by the PR department and approved by the FP.
 
I would go even further to say that, the effort to post an offical response is a classic 'thought stopping' technique.  It is the 'ministry of truth' revising history---look at our statment---we are friendly to blacks, therefore we have always been friendly to blacks.
 
This despite Mark E Perterson teaching his 'philosophy of men, mingled with scripture' at the same time Mandella was imprisoned for what is now being celebrated as a man fighting against the oppression of the black man.
 
Heaven forbid that they revisit the Mormon oppression of the black man until 1978.


   


Posted: 12 December 2013 09:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Does anyone know if there is a comparison on the web somewhere of what the leaders of the LDS Church versus civil rights activists were doing and saying at particular times?
 
For instance, in 1954 Nelson Mandela was actively resisting apartheid and actually on trial for treason at the time.
 
Meanwhile,  Mark E Peterson was saying things like:
 
"Think of the Negro, cursed as to the priesthood.... This Negro, who, in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the lord in sending him to earth in the lineage of Cain with a black skin.... In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get a celestial resurrection. He will get a place in the celestial glory. He will not go then even with the honorable men of the earth to the Terrestrial glory, nor with the ones spoken of as being without law"
 
From a speech at Brigham Young University in August 1954 "Race Problems—As They Affect the Church"
 
I know that is just the tip of the iceberg.
 
I think a comparative timeline would shed some light on the "they were influenced by their times" defense.  Yes, things were different, and I do think there were some otherwise good people who were deceived and believed and did wrong things.
 
But there were also other great leaders were truly being courageous with their statements and actions and were a real force for good in the world.  The church wasn't even "neutral" on civil rights matters, they were holding progress back.
 
SG


   


Posted: 12 December 2013 09:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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To be fair, I can't imagine any large organization of any kind, whether it be corporate, religious, non-profit, government, etc.... releases statements to the press that aren't drawn up by a PR agency. Even highly respectable organizations would do this. I don't think having a PR professional draw up statements like this is really worthy of criticism.
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Posted: 12 December 2013 12:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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If Mandela had died in prison (in the early 70s) he'd have been relegated to the Terrestrial Kingdom, as it is, the church probably is "rushing" his endowments through, even as we write.
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Posted: 12 December 2013 12:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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As I learn more and more about the Church and it's history of telling half truths and actual outright lies, it's so troubling to me. I vacilate between being so angered by the loss of all that time I volunteered for things in the Church because I sincerely thought what I was being fed was true to trying to "not throw out the baby with the bath water"by being so critical.
 
Recently the Church showed up in the Philippines with aid and relief for the victims. Because I do a lot of public service, I'm glad for anyone doing service to help another. That said, I have a tough time looking at anything the Church does or says with an innocent eye. I look at everything they do as an effort to promote the Church.
 
It troubles me that for it's entire history the Church was "being different" and now they're trying to do things that gives the impression they're part of the global Christian community.
 
If you've ever sat out on your children's weddings after a life time of service, you know that when the Church says they believe in marriage, or family they don't believe in the same definitions as the rest of society and knowingly mislead people. The Christ Mormons believe in is not the same Christ as the rest of the world believes in.
 
When they encourage the members to get involved in their communities, we all know it's for the purpose of extending their influence. 
 
In an organization that's had an entire history of racism, to come out now to "pay tribute" to Mandella, even if it is a real effort to catch up with the rest of the world.
It's tragic and even pathetic that these guys continue to misrepresent the truth and tell half truths and misrepresent their history. It's all so very calculated and manipulative. 
 
If you go on youtube and check out the history of Nazi Germany, excepting the violence, (though the Mt Meadows Massacre is as bad as anything of the atrocities the Nazi's did. I have no doubt that had the Mormons had the military hardware and people to go to war in the 1850's with the United States, they would have) you'll discover the same tactics, the same propaganda, the same hero worship of Hitler as Mormons have of Joseph Smith, the same keeping everyone so busy so they don't have time to consider or doubt the Church, the same controlling the message. Those who were part of the Weirmacht feel the same anger and rage towards Hitler and his henchmen as Post Mormons do towards the leaders of the Church. When we were young and impressionable, we were misled by indoctrination that was designed to get every once of devotion from us. Not knowing any better, we followed like sheep and paid and enormous price and we can't get any of that time back. To devote oneself to a lie and then to hear people justify their behaviour without remorse, it makes the rage even deeper.
 
Your thoughts? 


   


            
 
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The Church Should Be More Like the Freemasons  
Posted: 08 December 2013 01:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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I watched this story this morning on the Freemasons. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/inside-the-secret-world-of-the-freemasons/ It was interesting to observe the parallels between them and the church. One thing that caught my eye was that they reportedly give $2 million to charity every day.
You may know them better for their 22 childrens' hospitals, where patients don't have to pay a cent -- the Masons are philanthropic. They reportedly donate $2 million to charity every day.
The church could take a lesson from them.  

   


            
 
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I am still loved and USEFUL  
Posted: 06 December 2013 09:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Elders of the xxrd ward, 

Come join us at 10:00 am to clean the xxxxxx building.  This is a great opportunity to  show our gratitude to our Father.  In Alma 34:38 we read about Amulek's missionary message.  While counseling with the Zoramites about how to work out their salvation he says, "...worship God, in whatsoever place ye may be in, in spirit and in truth; and that ye live in thanksgiving daily, for the many mercies and blessings which he doth bestow upon you." Cleaning the building will give you an opportunity to truly "live in thanksgiving" and thereby work out your salvation.

I want each of you to know that God values you as his son.  He is mindful of your daily struggles and triumphs and your offering of gratitude (in whatever way you choose to show it) will open more ways that He can bless your life.  These are not my own words but were given through inspiration and so I say them in the name of Jesus Christ.
xxxxx xxxxxxx
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Posted: 06 December 2013 09:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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This is the first email I have received in years. It was sent just a few hours ago. I made some changes to it with the xxx's
 

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Posted: 06 December 2013 10:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Tom Sawyer could have learned a thing or two from these folks.
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

Phillip K. Dick


   


Posted: 06 December 2013 11:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Dinah
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I've always wanted to get one of those.  I would love to send them back a message inviting them to come clean a building I frequent but they don't. 
"Dear brother so-and-so,
You have been assigned to clean the building where I work on such-and-such day. Attached is a message which will attempt to shame and guilt you in to performing this task but will actually come off as manipulative and cultish since you do not use the building in question.

  Signed with a declaration of how much I love you,
               Someone you've never met" 

   


Posted: 06 December 2013 11:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Aleut
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Dinah:
I've always wanted to get one of those.  I would love to send them back a message inviting them to come clean a building I frequent but they don't. 
"Dear brother so-and-so,
You have been assigned to clean the building where I work on such-and-such day. Attached is a message which will attempt to shame and guilt you in to performing this task but will actually come off as manipulative and cultish since you do not use the building in question.

  Signed with a declaration of how much I love you,
               Someone you've never met"
   Great retort for such a manipulative plea for free labor. 
 
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“I don’t object to the concept of a deity, but I’m baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.”—Amy Farrah Fowler, The Big Bang Theory*
“Let your sobwebs go. Just put ‘em down. You’ll feel SO much better.”—Dogzilla Joy*
*All comments, statements, opinions, suggestions, and information expressed, or quotes cited, represent the exclusive viewpoint of Aleut at that point in time and are NOT meant to compel or represent agreement by the reader. Aleut will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use.


   


Posted: 06 December 2013 11:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
WinstonSmith
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Dinah:
I've always wanted to get one of those.  I would love to send them back a message inviting them to come clean a building I frequent but they don't. 
"Dear brother so-and-so,
You have been assigned to clean the building where I work on such-and-such day. Attached is a message which will attempt to shame and guilt you in to performing this task but will actually come off as manipulative and cultish since you do not use the building in question.

  Signed with a declaration of how much I love you,
               Someone you've never met"
 
 


   


Posted: 06 December 2013 05:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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WinstonSmith:
Dinah:
I've always wanted to get one of those.  I would love to send them back a message inviting them to come clean a building I frequent but they don't. 
"Dear brother so-and-so,
You have been assigned to clean the building where I work on such-and-such day. Attached is a message which will attempt to shame and guilt you in to performing this task but will actually come off as manipulative and cultish since you do not use the building in question.

  Signed with a declaration of how much I love you,
               Someone you've never met"
 
 
 
I see your  
 
and raise you             
 
Freakin' brilliant! 
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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 06 December 2013 05:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
free rosko
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Dinah:
I've always wanted to get one of those.  I would love to send them back a message inviting them to come clean a building I frequent but they don't. 
"Dear brother so-and-so,
You have been assigned to clean the building where I work on such-and-such day. Attached is a message which will attempt to shame and guilt you in to performing this task but will actually come off as manipulative and cultish since you do not use the building in question.

  Signed with a declaration of how much I love you,
               Someone you've never met"
 
 Dinah, you are my new hero. Love the response and wish it would happen.


   


Posted: 06 December 2013 08:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Dinah
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Posted: 07 December 2013 08:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
NoMorKulAde
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FreeLive:
This is the first email I have received in years. It was sent just a few hours ago. I made some changes to it with the xxx's
 

 
 I would encourage you to go but show up with a cooler of ice cold brews and break them out when the work is done.  
 
Bet you wouldn't get another invite. 
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The Gospel according to Mormonism.  Making perfect sense since NEVER!


   


Posted: 07 December 2013 09:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler
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All of that to just clean the building.  I mean if it takes that much justification and effort........
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They say that I am crazy
My life wasting on this road
That time will find my dreams
Scared or dead and cold
But I heard there is a light
Drawing me to reach an end
And when I reach there, I’ll turn back
And you and I can begin again

200 More Miles
Cowboy Junkies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SwJM5yohb0


   


Posted: 07 December 2013 11:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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4thNephite
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NoMorKulAde:
FreeLive:
This is the first email I have received in years. It was sent just a few hours ago. I made some changes to it with the xxx's
 

 
 I would encourage you to go but show up with a cooler of ice cold brews and break them out when the work is done.  
 
Bet you wouldn't get another invite. 
 
It would be great to show up with Starbucks in your hand...and don't offer any clarification as to what is in the cup.
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“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.”—Heber C Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, Page 32


   


Posted: 07 December 2013 12:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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thNephite:
NoMorKulAde:
FreeLive:
This is the first email I have received in years. It was sent just a few hours ago. I made some changes to it with the xxx's
 

 
 I would encourage you to go but show up with a cooler of ice cold brews and break them out when the work is done.  
 
Bet you wouldn't get another invite. 
 
It would be great to show up with Starbucks in your hand...and don't offer any clarification as to what is in the cup.
 
Those that are new to the ward boundaries chains may not know who I am but those who were around before the last redistricting after I left, would definitely know me as I was in the bishopric for 4 years. lol I didn't go. I had more important things to do in the snow than go warm up by physically exercising a scrub brush on a porcelain god that eats processed bread and kidney cleansed holy water.
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Vatican insists on rebaptizing converting Mormons (old news)  
Posted: 29 November 2013 08:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Discon2
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I knew about the decision but had not seen it mentioned in the Press.  I happened to trip across this article from 2001 in the NYTimes:
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/24/us/vatican-decides-to-rebaptize-mormons-who-are-converting.html
 
 
Note how Michael Otterson puts a bland spin on the matter ...
 
 
(I didn't realize Otterson was an LDS flack that long ago.)


   


Posted: 29 November 2013 11:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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OK, so this is 12 years old. Still, it's interesting that Catholics will re-baptize converting mormons, but Presbyterians won't (at least not in 2001). 
 
At least these are living people. The mormon practice of baptizing holocaust victims was reprehensible, and for that matter, any devout member of another religion. The whole baptism for the dead thing is disgusting. 
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Posted: 29 November 2013 03:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Phillip (hagiasophia)
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When I was received into the Catholic Church in 2012 I had to be baptized, unlike other people in my RCIA class who were coming from a Lutheran or Presbyterian background. The Catholic Church accepted their baptisms as valid so they were received with Confirmation alone (gift of the Holy Ghost in LDS-speak). Even though when baptizing Mormons use words and form that might at first glance seem acceptable, Mormon views on the nature of God and salvation differ enough for Catholics to reject the validity of LDS baptisms. It's baptism in the name of a different God, even though they both call them Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
 
Needless to say, no one in my tbm family attended my baptism. My parents almost flew out for a last minute "intervention" to save me from joining the whore of Babylon. In fact, just this week I got a letter from my father informing me once again that I am in the church of Satan and that I must leave it before it is everlastingly too late. Happy Thanksgiving to you too Dad!  
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Posted: 30 November 2013 07:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Quartersawn
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I was just baptized at a Presbyterian church.
I don't know about the RULES of baptizing apostate mormons but I would think they're the same as what Phillip (hagiasophia) stated. As for me, I choose to be baptized.
Another aspect, as LDS we said "we belonged to TCOJCOLDS", and baptism makes you a member of the church. As a Presbyterian I say "I belong to Christ and choose to worship through the Presbyterian tradition" and baptism makes you a member of Christ's body, worldwide, in mostly any tradition.
Do I believe everything they say? Nope.
Do I have to? Nope.  
But I like the acceptance of grace, the community, our civic outreach, and openess and striving to be accepting to all...race, color, creed, financial situation, sexual orientation, etc.  Pants, skirts, shorts or flip-flops. And you can bring your coffee into the sanctuary!  
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Why would you consider a man a prophet whose morals are worse than your own? Having claimed to commune with deity, be visited by angels and receive revelations, should he not be held to a higher standard? —me


   


            
 
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Movies with Mormonism as a main theme  
Posted: 28 November 2013 04:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Nephi
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messenger_of_Death
 
This one with Charles Bronson sure has a lot of crazy stuff in it.
 
Like the Alamo compound with the Gold Angel statue on it.
 
How about the angels with wings in the buildings. Did early mormons really have this type of symbol?
 
The movie Brigham City was a decent one. Didn't like the illegal searches pushed by the Bishop/town cop but all in all it wasn't too bad. Sadly it was made in Sprigville rather than Brigham City.  
 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0268200/
 
 
So, what other films are out there with Mormons pretty much the main theme running through them, good or bad?
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Posted: 28 November 2013 04:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Aleut
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The first one I thought of was Orgasmo (1997).
 
Here's Wikipedia's list of LDS cinema.
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“I’m having the best day of my life, and I owe it all to not going to Church!”—Homer Simpson, The Simpsons*
“I don’t object to the concept of a deity, but I’m baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.”—Amy Farrah Fowler, The Big Bang Theory*
“Let your sobwebs go. Just put ‘em down. You’ll feel SO much better.”—Dogzilla Joy*
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Posted: 28 November 2013 06:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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Dammit Aleut, now I'm depressed! I clicked on your link to LDS cinema, and realized that over half the titles on the list currently reside in my DVD cabinet. (although I did chuckle at the reference to mormon cinema as "Mollywood")
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We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 28 November 2013 07:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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Wouldn't a blockbuster NC-17 production of Joseph Smith, The Polygamy Years, starring Owen Wilson, Miley Cyrus, Lady Gaga, etc., and Kim Kardashian as Emma, be interesting? 

   


Posted: 29 November 2013 02:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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kinderhooker
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Elder OldDog:
Wouldn't a blockbuster NC-17 production of Joseph Smith, The Polygamy Years, starring Owen Wilson, Miley Cyrus, Lady Gaga, etc., and Kim Kardashian as Emma, be interesting?
 
That's a church history film I could feel good about buying as a gift for all my TBM friends!
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“And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations.” Alma 37:3


   


Posted: 29 November 2013 11:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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"Latter Days," of course!
 
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The above post is merely the experience, observation and perspective of a NeverMo, offered in support of the members of PostMormon.org

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Posted: 30 November 2013 12:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Don't know how I missed Prophet of Evil: The Ervil LeBaron Story  as it is a chilling tale of mormon murders.
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Morong’s Book Of Mormon Musical Conversion  
Posted: 27 November 2013 04:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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"Hi I'm Liza Morong,
I grew up in Camden Maine. I am studying Musical Theater. I love to help others and love life. I'm a Mormon.
About Me
I was raised in a small town on the coast of Maine. I am a college Student pursuing an education in Musical Theater and Public Relations. I am 21 years old and a convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. My hobbies include sailing, singing, and spending time with my incredible family. My passion in life is performance. My dream is to be an actress on Broadway.
 
Why I am a Mormon
In September of 2011, I attended a very controversial musical on Broadway called "The Book of Mormon". This musical is in no way affiliated with the church and touches on issues that are incredibly sensitive in very insensitive ways. Although several members of the church are offended by this show, it changed my life. After seeing the musical, I was extremely intrigued and decided to look more deeply into the Church. It was then, I discovered Mormon.org. Upon that initial visit to the website, I discovered the chat feature and that was when my real adventure began. I began talking to a certain pair of online missionaries.They asked me if I was interested in learning more. As it turns out, I was. They sent me a copy of the Book of Mormon and promised me that if I prayed, and pondered to know if the Book was true, that I would receive answers. That night I read Moroni:10 3-5 and prayed before going to bed. Soon the answers from The Lord started to flood into my life. 2 months after this happened on the 31st of December, I was baptized by the missionary that initially taught me on Mormon.org This Gospel has brought me more joy than anything I have ever experienced in my entire life. Although I am currently the only member in my family, I know in my heart that I made the right decision to be baptized. I know that God knows me and that is why he sent me to the musical in the first place. I can not express enough how much I love this church and all the blessings and happiness that come with being a member. Now that I have the church in my life, I couldn't imagine my life with out it. That (amongst many reasons) is why I am a Mormon.
How I live my faith
Living in the city of Boston is always an adventure. Boston if filled with individuals from all walks of life and I strive every day to find ways to help others. I serve in my ward as a Ward Missionary. This calling is so rewarding to me, as it gives me so many opportunities to share the amazing Gospel with others. Although a fulltime mission is not in the cards right now I long to help others learn of the restored gospel. Everyday I pray for missionary opportunities and strive to live the example the gospel provides. Although it is a challenge as the only LDS person at my school, I know that by living my faith with courage and charity in my heart, I can be an example to others."
 
 Signature
-Nothing beats a failure like a try 
_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 27 November 2013 04:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Avatar
incawhite
Jr. Member
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Joined  2013-11-19
 
  
 
josephs myth:
 
"Hi I'm Liza Morong,
I grew up in Camden Maine. I am studying Musical Theater. I love to help others and love life. I'm a Mormon.
About Me
I was raised in a small town on the coast of Maine. I am a college Student pursuing an education in Musical Theater and Public Relations. I am 21 years old and a convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. My hobbies include sailing, singing, and spending time with my incredible family. My passion in life is performance. My dream is to be an actress on Broadway.
 
Why I am a Mormon
In September of 2011, I attended a very controversial musical on Broadway called "The Book of Mormon". This musical is in no way affiliated with the church and touches on issues that are incredibly sensitive in very insensitive ways. Although several members of the church are offended by this show, it changed my life. After seeing the musical, I was extremely intrigued and decided to look more deeply into the Church. It was then, I discovered Mormon.org. Upon that initial visit to the website, I discovered the chat feature and that was when my real adventure began. I began talking to a certain pair of online missionaries.They asked me if I was interested in learning more. As it turns out, I was. They sent me a copy of the Book of Mormon and promised me that if I prayed, and pondered to know if the Book was true, that I would receive answers. That night I read Moroni:10 3-5 and prayed before going to bed. Soon the answers from The Lord started to flood into my life. 2 months after this happened on the 31st of December, I was baptized by the missionary that initially taught me on Mormon.org This Gospel has brought me more joy than anything I have ever experienced in my entire life. Although I am currently the only member in my family, I know in my heart that I made the right decision to be baptized. I know that God knows me and that is why he sent me to the musical in the first place. I can not express enough how much I love this church and all the blessings and happiness that come with being a member. Now that I have the church in my life, I couldn't imagine my life with out it. That (amongst many reasons) is why I am a Mormon.
How I live my faith
Living in the city of Boston is always an adventure. Boston if filled with individuals from all walks of life and I strive every day to find ways to help others. I serve in my ward as a Ward Missionary. This calling is so rewarding to me, as it gives me so many opportunities to share the amazing Gospel with others. Although a fulltime mission is not in the cards right now I long to help others learn of the restored gospel. Everyday I pray for missionary opportunities and strive to live the example the gospel provides. Although it is a challenge as the only LDS person at my school, I know that by living my faith with courage and charity in my heart, I can be an example to others."
 
 
 Really?...
 Signature
Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger Affair
http://youtu.be/JZ2fJtyP4bY
Mormon priesthood Fraud Mormon priesthood Fraud review 2013
http://youtu.be/pcw2SScvKV0
Book of Mormon - Bible Fraud - Book of Mormon -The Promise Land review 2013
http://youtu.be/5-NXFHCDIl0
Book of mormon fraud - Book of mormon fraud review 2013 (Book of Judith)
http://youtu.be/T7dFkl7EaHY
Joseph Smith LDS Scam | Joseph Smith LDS Scam review 2013
http://youtu.be/szQtWN7NoSo


   


Posted: 27 November 2013 04:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
Avatar
josephs myth
Long Timer
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Joined  2008-01-25
 
  
 
incawhite:
josephs myth:
 
"Hi I'm Liza Morong,
I grew up in Camden Maine. I am studying Musical Theater. I love to help others and love life. I'm a Mormon.
About Me
I was raised in a small town on the coast of Maine. I am a college Student pursuing an education in Musical Theater and Public Relations. I am 21 years old and a convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. My hobbies include sailing, singing, and spending time with my incredible family. My passion in life is performance. My dream is to be an actress on Broadway.
 
Why I am a Mormon
In September of 2011, I attended a very controversial musical on Broadway called "The Book of Mormon". This musical is in no way affiliated with the church and touches on issues that are incredibly sensitive in very insensitive ways. Although several members of the church are offended by this show, it changed my life. After seeing the musical, I was extremely intrigued and decided to look more deeply into the Church. It was then, I discovered Mormon.org. Upon that initial visit to the website, I discovered the chat feature and that was when my real adventure began. I began talking to a certain pair of online missionaries.They asked me if I was interested in learning more. As it turns out, I was. They sent me a copy of the Book of Mormon and promised me that if I prayed, and pondered to know if the Book was true, that I would receive answers. That night I read Moroni:10 3-5 and prayed before going to bed. Soon the answers from The Lord started to flood into my life. 2 months after this happened on the 31st of December, I was baptized by the missionary that initially taught me on Mormon.org This Gospel has brought me more joy than anything I have ever experienced in my entire life. Although I am currently the only member in my family, I know in my heart that I made the right decision to be baptized. I know that God knows me and that is why he sent me to the musical in the first place. I can not express enough how much I love this church and all the blessings and happiness that come with being a member. Now that I have the church in my life, I couldn't imagine my life with out it. That (amongst many reasons) is why I am a Mormon.
How I live my faith
Living in the city of Boston is always an adventure. Boston if filled with individuals from all walks of life and I strive every day to find ways to help others. I serve in my ward as a Ward Missionary. This calling is so rewarding to me, as it gives me so many opportunities to share the amazing Gospel with others. Although a fulltime mission is not in the cards right now I long to help others learn of the restored gospel. Everyday I pray for missionary opportunities and strive to live the example the gospel provides. Although it is a challenge as the only LDS person at my school, I know that by living my faith with courage and charity in my heart, I can be an example to others."
 
 Really?...
 
 
You too can call 1-888-537-6600 and speak to a LDS missionary, right now!
 
Oh this is all so, so...  Morong.
 
 
 Signature
-Nothing beats a failure like a try 
_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
          Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live


   


Posted: 27 November 2013 07:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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What Is Wanted
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If there was a play about Scientology she probably would have joined them instead.
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The Book of Mormon is Christian “Fan Fiction”.... I am not a fan :)


   


Posted: 27 November 2013 07:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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peace out
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This girl was destined for a cult, If you can see Book of Mormon musical and then go and join you are going to end up in some cult somewhere. Hopefully she will out grow it.
 
 "stupid is as stupid does " Mama Gump
 


   


Posted: 27 November 2013 02:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
quietlydifferent
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Sad. 

   


            
 
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Broad daylight is the best antiseptic
by Strong Free & Thankful
How do I develop a lifestyle out of Mormonism?
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by Celestial Wedgie
Was Michael Jackson Mormon????
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Race and the Priesthood: Back to the Future edition
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Temple Recommend Question Answered for LDS Church
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Financial Report for 2011 to Date

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Financial Report for 2009

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Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




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[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



Salt Lake Events the week before christmas
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Mormon Themed Podcasts  
Posted: 19 September 2013 08:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Faith&Doubt;
Newbie
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Joined  2013-09-18
 
  
 
Looking around there are multiple podcasts that deal with mormonism
 
MormonExpression - http://mormonexpression.com/ An ex-mormon podcast
 
Mormon Stories -  http://mormonstories.org
 A nuanced member's view
 
And there are others like a thoughtfulfaith.org and mormon matters and of course fairblog.org
 
but I found this one really cool  mormondiscussion.podbean.com
 
This guy believes but deals with the issues head on.  anyway, do any of you listen to LDS podcasts and if so which is your favorite?  any that I am missing that you like


   


Posted: 19 September 2013 08:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Rhodes
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My favorite podcast by ex-Mormons: Thank God I'm Atheist
 
Runners-up: Outer Darkness and Irreligiosophy
 Signature
My family’s resignation letter and reply.

“Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood?  That is what Jesus Christ meant.” - Brigham Young, in the Tabernacle, 8 Feb 1857, on how to “love” the perceived enemies of the church.


   


Posted: 05 December 2013 08:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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L. Tom
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There is another mormon podcast that I would recommend: 
http://infantsonthrones.com/ 
 Signature
Not to be confused with the LDS apostle L. Tom Perry.


   


Posted: 06 December 2013 06:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
NoMorKulAde
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Sorry I can't seem to get the link to paste here.  MormonExpositor is good and MormonExpressionVoices has some very poignant personal interviews by people who have shared their experiences with leaving the church.
 Signature
The Gospel according to Mormonism.  Making perfect sense since NEVER!


   


Posted: 06 December 2013 07:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Swearing Elder
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Joined  2008-12-18
 
  
 
A Matter of Doubt deals with religious doubt and deconversion. I was interviewed on there a while ago.
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“There’s an old saying about those who forget history. I don’t remember it, but it’s good.” — Stephen Colbert


   


Posted: 06 December 2013 09:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Lost13th
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Mormon Expositor features many of the panelists who once frequented Mormon Expression. http://mormonexpositor.com/
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We were born too soon to explore the cosmos
And too late to explore the earth.
Our frontier is the human mind.
Religion is the ocean we must cross.
-unknown


   


            
 
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 Is there really any “getting better” for some people?
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Masterbating
by TheThomas
Broad daylight is the best antiseptic
by Strong Free & Thankful
How do I develop a lifestyle out of Mormonism?
by Nephi
The perfect excuse for polyandry
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Downtown Bus Robber Takes A Ride To The Floor
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Will Utah allow 'married gays' to marry opposite sex in the State also?
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Name Finally Removed
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Religious Trauma Syndrome
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Is this how mormons treat non-members?  
Posted: 13 December 2013 04:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
moronie-balonie
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DH and I just passed our 1 yr. anniversary of not attending church, and in that year we have developed a love of coffee.  Today, while at the grocery store we got a glimpse of how TBM's treat non-members.  We both were BIC, and so this was a real eye-opener for us.  
  
We were grinding some coffee beans at the store when a gentleman with a little boy in the cart walked by.  The little boy was curious and asked his dad "what's that?".  The father didn't even try to speak quietly as he responded "That's coffee.  We don't drink that.  It will burn holes in your liver."  He was clearly speaking loudly enough so that we could learn a lesson from him.  I have to tell you that I did learn a lesson, but not the one he was intending.  We assumed that he was LDS from this response.  We learned that he is a judgemental jerk who thinks that his belief that coffee is bad and should be avoided should be imposed on everyone.  It was also teaching his son that it is O.K. to insult people that don't share your beliefs.  Oh yeah-I forgot that public shaming is common in the moron culture.  
 
Good grief-I hope that I wasn't that big of a jerk when I was a TBM.  


   


Posted: 13 December 2013 05:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
from the 5th wife
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I have come accross some old non member freinds, (you know, the ones we used to try and convert with subtle hints that we were more happy than they were because we had the gospel.) When they asked about church, I just said we don't go to that church any more.  Then they open up and tell me things about how badly they have been treated by mormons. 
  A while back DW was in charge of a girl scout troop and we got to know some of the girls mothers,  We noticed how after a certain age the mormons would drop out of girl scouts.  while at the store we bumped into one of the ex girl scouts mothers and asked why her daughter did not come anymore. (she did not know we were members.)  She said that in her church (mormon) we have a program for girls called activity days and young women so we will not be coming to girl scouts any more. 
  While this is a small thing, it is another example of how the mormons are very exclusionary of others.


   


Posted: 13 December 2013 10:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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backwardsiris
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moronie-balonie:
DH and I just passed our 1 yr. anniversary of not attending church, and in that year we have developed a love of coffee.  Today, while at the grocery store we got a glimpse of how TBM's treat non-members.  We both were BIC, and so this was a real eye-opener for us.  
  
We were grinding some coffee beans at the store when a gentleman with a little boy in the cart walked by.  The little boy was curious and asked his dad "what's that?".  The father didn't even try to speak quietly as he responded "That's coffee.  We don't drink that.  It will burn holes in your liver."  He was clearly speaking loudly enough so that we could learn a lesson from him.  I have to tell you that I did learn a lesson, but not the one he was intending.  We assumed that he was LDS from this response.  We learned that he is a judgemental jerk who thinks that his belief that coffee is bad and should be avoided should be imposed on everyone.  It was also teaching his son that it is O.K. to insult people that don't share your beliefs.  Oh yeah-I forgot that public shaming is common in the moron culture.  
 
Good grief-I hope that I wasn't that big of a jerk when I was a TBM.  
 
Funny, someone trying to teach a lesson on something about which they so obviously know nothing! Research out of Italy recently found that coffee consumption reduces the risk of liver cancer & in other studies has also been found to reduce fibroids in various liver diseases. As with most everything, moderation is key.
 
Now, if we rummaged around this judgemental prick's medicine cabinent I wonder what we'd find. . . Tylenol? Aleve? Antidepressants? Ritalin? All of these are known to cause liver damage and  have liver-related side effects & warnings. At least 2 of my TBM family members take prescription stimulants (Provigil & another Ritalin-like drug) --one of the listed side-effects is "serious allergic reaction involving the liver or blood cells". Ummmm, no thanks! I'll take my cuppa joe. 
  


   


Posted: 14 December 2013 01:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
Nephi
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In the immortal inspired words of Gordon B. Hinckley, Prophet, Seer and Revelator: "tolerate your non mormon neighbors".
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Posted: 14 December 2013 05:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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All this cawfee tawlk has me Jonesin' for Java!
 
Reheated in the mike.... But I'm desparate and don't want to make a whole pot!  
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Posted: 14 December 2013 11:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Mashiara
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GraciesDaddy:
All this cawfee tawlk has me Jonesin' for Java!
 
Reheated in the mike.... But I'm desparate and don't want to make a whole pot!  
 
I like a nice hot cup of coffee, but I also put my unused brew in a tumbler for iced drinks, so I can have iced coffee on hand when I want it. 


   


Posted: 15 December 2013 11:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
Curious NeverMo
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I've always wondered about this as it concerns modesty.  If Mormons think shoulders and knees are "immodest" what do they think privately when they move through the general population where we wear sleeveless things and shorts, etc?  
 
It particularly came into focus once when I was at my husband's office in Los Angeles on a hot day wearing a sleeveless shirt and shorts.  One of his LDS employees came up to me from behind and began rubbing my shoulders.  It wasn't especially lacivious.  We knew each other well enough -- tho I'm sure he's never actually touched me before.  I wasn't bothered but I was aware of the paradox of the construct of modesty that he must have internally and wondered that he'd pick that moment to take one step toward furthere intimacy -- especially coming from behind where I had no reason to expect it and he gave himself no opportunity to gauge how welcome it was by monitoring my response as he approached.  
 
It seems to me you (editorial "you") can't have one standard of decency -- whether it applies to caffein or entertainment or dress or whatever -- and not apply it to the general population and come to conclusions about those who have different standards   


   


Posted: 15 December 2013 10:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
huehuetenango
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Curious NeverMo:
I've always wondered about this as it concerns modesty.  If Mormons think shoulders and knees are "immodest" what do they think privately when they move through the general population where we wear sleeveless things and shorts, etc?  
 
It particularly came into focus once when I was at my husband's office in Los Angeles on a hot day wearing a sleeveless shirt and shorts.  One of his LDS employees came up to me from behind and began rubbing my shoulders.  It wasn't especially lacivious.  We knew each other well enough -- tho I'm sure he's never actually touched me before.  I wasn't bothered but I was aware of the paradox of the construct of modesty that he must have internally and wondered that he'd pick that moment to take one step toward furthere intimacy -- especially coming from behind where I had no reason to expect it and he gave himself no opportunity to gauge how welcome it was by monitoring my response as he approached.  
 
It seems to me you (editorial "you") can't have one standard of decency -- whether it applies to caffein or entertainment or dress or whatever -- and not apply it to the general population and come to conclusions about those who have different standards   
 
 It's sort of funny but I've never been LDS and though I wouldn't think twice about wearing a spagehetti strap shirt in the summer I would find it it highly inappropriate for an employee of my husbands to walk up behind me and rub my shoulders in the office.  I would think there was something wrong with the guy not neccessarlily dangerous but that he was socially clueless and not someone I'd hang with.  Maybe at home or in another more personal situation but he would have to be a very very close long time friend before I could see it as anything thing but improper or at best socially inept. And I be willing to bet that if I asked my family and friends they would have the same view on the situation.


   


Posted: 16 December 2013 05:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Aleut
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Curious NeverMo:
I've always wondered about this as it concerns modesty.  If Mormons think shoulders and knees are "immodest" what do they think privately when they move through the general population where we wear sleeveless things and shorts, etc? 
 
It particularly came into focus once when I was at my husband's office in Los Angeles on a hot day wearing a sleeveless shirt and shorts.  One of his LDS employees came up to me from behind and began rubbing my shoulders.  It wasn't especially lacivious.  We knew each other well enough -- tho I'm sure he's never actually touched me before.  I wasn't bothered but I was aware of the paradox of the construct of modesty that he must have internally and wondered that he'd pick that moment to take one step toward furthere intimacy -- especially coming from behind where I had no reason to expect it and he gave himself no opportunity to gauge how welcome it was by monitoring my response as he approached.  
 
It seems to me you (editorial "you") can't have one standard of decency -- whether it applies to caffein or entertainment or dress or whatever -- and not apply it to the general population and come to conclusions about those who have different standards   
[  ] IMO, most TBMs do make judgements of people based on Mormon modesty standards.  Viewing a non-mormon dressed immodestly (according to typical Mormon standards), the TBM would condescendingly think, "What a shame, that person doesn't know any better."  But seeing another mormon dressed similarly, the TBM would disapprovingly think, "That person should know better."  Whether the TBM would vocalize these thoughts depends on that person's level of mormon zealotry.
 
[  ] The unexpected and uninvited touching is, IMO, inappropriate.  It reminds my of the incident when former U.S. President G.W. Bush gives the German Chancellor Angela Merkel a shoulder massage. What Bush probably assumed was a "good ol' buddy" gesture of friendship, obviously was totally inappropriate.  Likewise, IMO, the mormon touching your shoulders was totally out of place and creepy.
 
--Edited to add video link and to correct syntax and spelling-- 
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Posted: 16 December 2013 06:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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huehuetenango:
Curious NeverMo:
I've always wondered about this as it concerns modesty.  If Mormons think shoulders and knees are "immodest" what do they think privately when they move through the general population where we wear sleeveless things and shorts, etc?  
 
It particularly came into focus once when I was at my husband's office in Los Angeles on a hot day wearing a sleeveless shirt and shorts.  One of his LDS employees came up to me from behind and began rubbing my shoulders.  It wasn't especially lacivious.  We knew each other well enough -- tho I'm sure he's never actually touched me before.  I wasn't bothered but I was aware of the paradox of the construct of modesty that he must have internally and wondered that he'd pick that moment to take one step toward furthere intimacy -- especially coming from behind where I had no reason to expect it and he gave himself no opportunity to gauge how welcome it was by monitoring my response as he approached.  
 
It seems to me you (editorial "you") can't have one standard of decency -- whether it applies to caffein or entertainment or dress or whatever -- and not apply it to the general population and come to conclusions about those who have different standards   
 
 It's sort of funny but I've never been LDS and though I wouldn't think twice about wearing a spagehetti strap shirt in the summer I would find it it highly inappropriate for an employee of my husbands to walk up behind me and rub my shoulders in the office.  I would think there was something wrong with the guy not neccessarlily dangerous but that he was socially clueless and not someone I'd hang with.  Maybe at home or in another more personal situation but he would have to be a very very close long time friend before I could see it as anything thing but improper or at best socially inept. And I be willing to bet that if I asked my family and friends they would have the same view on the situation.
 
I second this.


   


Posted: 16 December 2013 07:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Is this how mormons treat non-members? --- adding to the list

Conversation with Non-Mormon Neighbor:

Neighbor: I don't get it, when we moved in the Mormons were all so nice and inclusive of my family. Now no one will even talk to us.

Me: You mean that they invited you to attended social events that were sponsored by their Church, they invited you to come to a family home evening, [etc...]

Neighbor: Yeah, we went to one but we didn't really like it. We invited these same people [Mormons] several times to come to one of our church sponsored activities, but they wouldn't.

Me: Well there you go. They gave you your chance to become one of them, and when you declined and they realized you are not interested in joining their religion, they moved on.
 
You also must understand the Mormon's have a ‘fear phobia' that if they were ever to attend an event sponsored by another religion, that there is a great risk of them becoming deceived by the devil. They will not say it, many do not even realize it but this is implicitly taught to them by the Mormon leadership continually.

Neighbor: Noooo---people aren't like that---do you really think that is why?

Me: Yeap---they will be nice and wave or say "Hi" to you on the street, but more than likely you have become an ambiguous object lesson told in their social circles and "sacrament meeting", with the narrator explaining how bad they feel that you did not find the truth. The narrator will also explain to the congregation how it just might not have been your time and that they will be praying for you to someday find the truth.


   


Posted: 16 December 2013 07:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
Curious NeverMo
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Yes, it was like the Angela Merkel/Geo Bush thing.  I forgot about that.  Good example!  
 
It was a friendly gesture in intent -- that much was clear -- but it was akward still for the minute it lasted because, tho I know him well enough to be on a first name basis and see him from time to time at parties, we're not really on a social footing.  I've never met his wife (who lives in UT while he commutes to SoCal weekly).  I really wouldn't have given it a second thought if it were anyone else in the office I knew to the same extent but knowing he was Mormon and wondering how he'd react if someone approached his wife that way made me wonder what was going through his mind when he did it.
 
Anyway, I think those essential standards anyone has about core values aren't something you can park at the door when you encounter people who behave differently.  You either have to come to some sort of conclusion about the person or the circumstances or re-evaluate what that standard means to you and why you embrace it.  I suppose we should be grateful to everyone who exhibits some grace or diplomacy and some flexibility when these things collide.  
 
Maybe the Mormon in the original story was feeling defensive or resentful about the restriction he knew he needed to enforce with his son.  ::shrug::


   


Posted: 16 December 2013 08:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Curious NeverMo:
Yes, it was like the Angela Merkel/Geo Bush thing.  I forgot about that.  Good example!  
 
It was a friendly gesture in intent -- that much was clear -- but it was akward still for the minute it lasted because, tho I know him well enough to be on a first name basis and see him from time to time at parties, we're not really on a social footing.  I've never met his wife (who lives in UT while he commutes to SoCal weekly).  I really wouldn't have given it a second thought if it were anyone else in the office I knew to the same extent but knowing he was Mormon and wondering how he'd react if someone approached his wife that way made me wonder what was going through his mind when he did it.
 
Anyway, I think those essential standards anyone has about core values aren't something you can park at the door when you encounter people who behave differently.  You either have to come to some sort of conclusion about the person or the circumstances or re-evaluate what that standard means to you and why you embrace it.  I suppose we should be grateful to everyone who exhibits some grace or diplomacy and some flexibility when these things collide.  
 
Maybe the Mormon in the original story was feeling defensive or resentful about the restriction he knew he needed to enforce with his son.  ::shrug::
 
Speaking as an expert male, when he put his paws on your bare shoulders, it was entirely sexual in nature.  His essential maleness overcame his mormon conditioning; had there been a light switch and a bed handy, he would have suggested reproduction.  It is likely that he's harbored sexual yearnings for someone, anyone, other than his eternal wife, for lo these many years and circumstances conspired to give him a brief outlet for those feelings.  
 
How do you feel about being the object of masturbatory fantasies?  Unfortunately, there are no residuals, unless you're a member of SAG...
 
If he's here in SoCal 'alone' during the work week, it's likely that he's not worthy to partake of the sacrament.  Men are pigs, unless there's a really strong incentive not to allow our reproductive urges to get the best of us, and I think I would not be alone in declaring that the mormon promise of a celestial kingdom is not sufficient incentive.


   


Posted: 16 December 2013 11:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
Curious NeverMo
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Well, in fact, he's around SAG people who are far more worthy of any X-rated fantasies than this 65yo overweight grandma.     I have the impression from my husband that he's very devoted to his wife.  In any case, all that is between him and others.   Very, very little of it had anything to do with me.  I just dealt with it as a friendly, if weird, gesture as I'm sure that's how it was intended.  My husband was not only in the immediate vicinity (if not within eyesight) but his boss, IYKWIM.  


   


            
 
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My response to LDS Church leaders’ official statement on blacks and the priesthood  
Posted: 08 December 2013 01:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Jeff Ricks
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 For what it's worth, this morning I posted this on my Facebook wall in response to the church leaders official response regarding blacks and the priesthood.
 
--------------------------------------- 
 
 I had intended not to post anything more about Mormonism for awhile, assuming it would be at least a few weeks before LDS church leaders publish another official response to another embarrassing fact about Mormon history. My understanding is that 10 more are expected over the coming weeks. This one's about Mormonism's racist past. 

True to form, the official response is riddled with misrepresentations and half-truths (which I might respond to later in more detailed form). In this post I want to draw attention to the characteristic lack of contrition shown. Never in my awareness have the church leaders ever apologized to anyone for behavior, policies, and doctrines of its past or present leaders. Instead, they rationalize, obfuscate, and lie in order maintain the illusion that LDS leaders have always been men of such high moral integrity and holiness that they even talk with God. But true men of integrity would sincerely apologize, not rationalize. They would clarify not obfuscate. They would tell the truth, not misrepresent. I'm not surprised by their response, but I am disappointed. Yes, they disavow the racism of the past but rationalize it as "theories," not what it was: Doctrine. I was hoping for something more respectable.
Yes, they now officially repudiate all racism, but it's easy when long AFTER the majority of the entire civilized world has already done so. If LDS church leaders were in fact the men they pretend to be then shouldn't they have been at least among the FIRST?
Here’s a link to their official response:
http://www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng#9
To those who read the official response, the video below is a reminder of only a few of the ugly racist statements by past LDS church leaders, including Joseph Smith. As I've said in previous post, I'm not anti-Mormon, I'm simply pro-truth. If the LDS church leaders would simply, once and for all, do the right thing and tell the truth, then instead of this post I'd thank them for finally being the honorable men they pretend to be.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tfHzyCXHiw
 
Follow up comments:
 
The LDS church leaders are such shortsighted "prophets" that they're exhibiting the same brand of misguided bigotry with regard to sexual orientation. Someday they'll call their official homophobic policies of today "theories" of the past too. Mark my words.
 
It just occurred to me that LDS church leadership maintained its racist, discriminatory doctrines even up tol 14 years AFTER the Civil Rights Act was passed, and now they're excusing it all as just theories. Prophet's? I think not.
 
 
 
 
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Posted: 08 December 2013 04:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Jeff,
 
My favorite reply to this topic (can't remember if it was on your post or on the MormonStories Facebook page) is the one that summarized the new lds.org essay as saying that the Church excused its racial practices as just a reflection of the prevailing attitudes of the day. The poster went on to say that the early Church wasn't hesitant to buck the prevailing attitudes about marriage, however, with its institution of polygamy!
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Posted: 08 December 2013 04:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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josephs myth
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Jeff Ricks:
   I had intended not to post anything more about Mormonism for awhile, assuming it would be at least a few weeks before LDS church leaders publish another official response to another embarrassing fact about Mormon history. 
My understanding is that 10 more are expected over the coming weeks.  This one's about Mormonism's racist past. 
BobbiesPath:
Jeff,
My favorite reply to this topic (can't remember if it was on your post or on the MormonStories Facebook page) is the one that summarized the new lds.org essay as saying that the Church excused its racial practices as just a reflection of the prevailing attitudes of the day. The poster went on to say that the early Church wasn't hesitant to buck the prevailing attitudes about marriage, however, with its institution of polygamy!
 
 
 Keep this up and it could merit it's own sticky.
 
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Posted: 08 December 2013 11:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Lord of Darkness
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What committee and PR firm came up with that doozy?!  I love how the church needs a 2,000 word essay to explain its previous practice of racism, which it blames on the prevailing societal norms.  Oops.  If only we had a prophet at the time who could chat with God and get the real skinny...
 
Another gem from the essay: 
 
Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else. Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form.
 
Uuuuuummmm...I hate to break it to you, but the Book of Mormon's main theme is about a civilization who shuns god and has its skin darkened as a punishment.  Are we just pretending that the Lamanites were not cursed for their wickedness with dark skin? 
 
 
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Posted: 09 December 2013 09:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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So does that mean the church is going to dump the BOM as official doctrine????? What a concept.
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Posted: 09 December 2013 01:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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What I find most interesting in the response is that they still don't say the ban itself wasn't doctrine, or wasn't the will of the lord. They make reference to societal norms relating to racism with the obvious intent of making it look like it wasn't outside the norm for those times, but they never explicitly connect that to the priesthood ban. They gladly dismiss the theories FOR the ban (curse of Cain, valiance in the pre-existence) as not doctrinal (which isn't really true to begin with), but they DON'T say that the ban itself isn't. That would have been much more significant.
 
It's not courageous to call BS on the curse of cain and to say that belief was a product of the times. That idea is absurd to anyone. But it would have been courageous to come right out and say god never called for Africans to be denied the priesthood. The idea that it was still something god commanded was implied that response, which makes the whole thing pointless. This whole thing is so sleazy.
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Posted: 09 December 2013 04:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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If you use the story of Noah as a literal story, and most TBM's still do and it has been so all along, then where did all the other black people come from?  
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http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-31-honesty?lang=eng


   


Posted: 09 December 2013 05:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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baneberry:
If you use the story of Noah as a literal story, and most TBM's still do and it has been so all along, then where did all the other black people come from?  
 
Are you thinking of native Australian, Tasmanians, and Papuans?
 
Their ancestors must've been cursed with dark skin without any restriction pertaining to the priesthood. Once we get the history of their peoples served up on metal plates, we'll find out what the circumstances surrounding the cursings of their ancestors were. They're obviously unrelated to the Africans because the LDS church has always let those black have the priesthood, just like the Lamanites.
 
Wait, actually that's all BU||sh!t.
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Posted: 09 December 2013 05:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Skeptic puts on Mormon Apologist Hat ~
 
“We live in a society that feeds on criticism. Faultfinding is the substance of columnists and commentators, and there is too much of this among our own people. It is so easy to find fault, and to resist doing so requires much of discipline.
 
Of course there aberrations in our history. There are blemishes to be found, if searched for, in the lives of all men, including our leaders past and present. But these are only incidental to the magnitude of their service and to the greatness of their contributions!
 
Keep before you the big picture, for this cause is as large as all mankind and as broad as all eternity. This is the church and kingdom of God. It requires the strength, the loyalty, the faith of all if it is to roll forward to bless the lives of our Father’s children over the earth.
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Several aberrations of the past:
“And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham’s wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God”.-John Taylor August 28, 1881 Journal of Discourses V 22:304
 
October 9, 1859: Brigham young, during a conference talk in the Tabernacle, as recorded in the Journal of Discourses 7:282, states:
"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race-that they should be the "servant of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favorable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion."
 
 
 
-Latest Church Statement-
http://www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng#9
“In 1852, President Brigham Young publicly announced that men of black African descent could no longer be ordained to the priesthood, though thereafter blacks continued to join the Church through baptism and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. Following the death of Brigham Young, subsequent Church presidents restricted blacks from receiving the temple endowment or being married in the temple. Over time, Church leaders and members advanced many theories to explain the priesthood and temple restrictions. None of these explanations is accepted today as the official doctrine of the Church.”
 
 
If we follow the prophets and apostles and the revelations of the Church, we will not be led astray.
 
Teachings of Joseph Smith
Losing confidence in Church leaders, criticizing them, and neglecting any duty required by God lead to apostasy.
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=da135f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=3518b00367c45110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1&contentLocale=0
 
 
Keep your eyes riveted on the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. We will not lead you astray. We cannot. Let me tell you why. Every week that I am in town, I attend a meeting of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve on the fourth floor of the Salt Lake Temple. If you could see the process by which decision and direction comes from that meeting, you would have a deep sense of confidence and comfort that the will of the Lord is being taught by the leaders of the Church. - Elder M. Russell Ballard Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles    http://www.lds.org/church/leader/m-russell-ballard?lang=eng
 
"Each of us has to face the matter-either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing."-
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Seemly the Church in its statement is admitting prophets are fallible. This begs the question: How might we know the current prophet is not fallible?
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Posted: 09 December 2013 05:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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My response to the glut of mormons that think this is a really positive move forward for the church:
 
I'd like to see TS Monson say the words "Brigham Young was a racist," "Bruce R. McConkie was a racist," or "SW Kimball, ET Benson, GB Hinkly and I were all wrong and uninspired when we said that sexual orientation resulted from nurture and not nature and could be changed."
 
That sort of honesty will never happen, but it would be required for them to repent of their wrongs in the way that they teach all the little people that repentance works.  
 
Better yet, they should say "Brigham Young was a racist, and he lied when he said or even implied that he spoke for God about the subject of race and every "prophet" after him has lied about the genesis of the church's racist teaching or sinned by ommission by not setting right the wrongs perpetrated by the attitudes of our ealier "prophets."  They should repeat this for every racist, homophobic, misogynistic policy and every single person who has ever been labeled a "prophet, seer or revealator."  
 
Hiding behind "the attitudes of the day" or "person not prophet" or the known general beliefs of the people within the church formed by the collective statements of general authorities and either enforced by lies or uncorrected social conformity that you're aware of, is a cop out.  It's dishonest.  It's wrong.  
 
 
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Posted: 09 December 2013 06:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Some will still only see the lipstick, others, who can take a step back, see the pig.
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Posted: 09 December 2013 08:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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When Jeff first posted this link, I was so excited about the church being here and now to this point in their damage-control that I awoke in the night thinking about it--like when something really good is on your mind.  It means what we have known for a while--that they are going down; it is just a matter of when.  They realize that if they are to survive and keep that sweet flow of income, they have to turn this tide.  Only problem is--it is what it is and what it is is a lie and a fraud.  When all the cards are on the table--a few will remain who are as loyal as Warren Jeffs followers are, but most will walk.  Especially when they realize the leaders today lied and purposely kept the truth from them.  I think Jeff Ricks is right on with this one.  This is what the TBMs need to know now.  They are following liars.
 
The morg tried to fix the problem with apologists but that only worked on the Warren Jeff's mindset TBMs.  Now they seem to be hoping that their devine cloak will cause TBMs to accept them as inspired apologists.  It will work on some but the crack in the door is becoming wider and light is shining on the truth more every day.  It is a beautiful thing!
 
We, PostMos, who have spoken out and helped to put the pressure on LDS, Inc are greatly responsible, I believe, for what is happening.  We are making the world a better place.  Sometimes it gets discouraging but we are making a difference.  PostMormon.org is one of the major voices that has helped to push LDS, Inc into this position of having to make excuses for their unexcusable behavior for almost 200 years.  The church leaders know the truth.  They have to be attacked by it and defending it constantly.  They are dirt bags for not coming clean long ago.
 
Nice write-ups Jeff!   Seems to me the only thing that could make the dirty 15's job easier would be if Jeff were to defect and write for them.  Fat chance in hell of that!
 
For a post above, I think the way they claim that black people got here during the flood is through Ham.  If I remember correctly, I think Ham might have had a black wife.  If the Bible quoting folks knew all the ugly, crazy stuff in there--and they don't--it would be difficult for them to hold to anything in the Bible as truth.  Hmm--that seems to be just the position the dirty 15 find themselves in.  The more crazy, ugly stuff they have to admit--the less they can claim any of it is true.  That is the position they find themselves in.  It surely feels good to be on the winning team--on the side of truth and to see truth being put on the table.  This will make dealing with TBM family on a more level playing field.  Who ever knew being an Ex-Mormon would feel this nice!


   


Posted: 09 December 2013 09:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
Iron Chancellor
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BobbiesPath:
Jeff,
 
My favorite reply to this topic (can't remember if it was on your post or on the MormonStories Facebook page) is the one that summarized the new lds.org essay as saying that the Church excused its racial practices as just a reflection of the prevailing attitudes of the day. The poster went on to say that the early Church wasn't hesitant to buck the prevailing attitudes about marriage, however, with its institution of polygamy!
 
 Doesn't this contradict what the leaders quote from ETB's talk 'Fourteen fundamentals for following the Prophet'?
 
Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or diplomas to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time. (emphasis mine)
 
If a prophet is able to speak on any subject (like the proper attitude towards blacks) why do we hear that he was a man of his time? If the lord was directing his church back in them good ol' days why didn't he tell the brethren not to follow the prevailing attitudes of early American racism? It truly seems that the mormon god can't see past his own nose when it comes to future events and how the church will have to flip-flop on these same issues at some unspecified future time.  Couldn't mormon god save his favorite people from all the embarrasment by just telling the prophet how things will be 150 years in the future?  Just can't trust that mormon god, now can you?
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Posted: 09 December 2013 10:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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What I got out of TSCC's little essay: Sure they denied the full blessings needed to get into the celestial kingdom to black people and refused them equal standing but they didn't segregate on a churchwide scale. Sure, the church can't for one second give a single reason for the ban that isn't really, really racist in a way that shows church leadership isn't directly inspired by any non-racist deity but.... Why should a church that claims to be led by a prophet that communicates directly with their god be expected to do anything except follow society to the point of making revelation meaningless?  

   


Posted: 10 December 2013 07:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Haven't you heard? All the "cursed/dark" people in the Celestial Kingdom will be relegated to the "servant's quarters." They'll be gods, but only to moons and asteroids.
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Posted: 10 December 2013 09:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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One thing I hadn't realized before reading the church's statement, was that blacks (er, blacks of African descent, as though that is somehow better than *all* blacks) weren't allowed into temples, either. I guess since men have to have the priesthood to go to the temple it's consistent (although still wrong), but I wonder why the restriction for women? Just too weird to let women go without their husbands? The "curse" meant no temple ordinances (in theory, wouldn't the "washing and anointing" take care of that? This whole belief system is not only false and offensive but maddeningly inconsistent...) But the church statement is basically saying "blacks couldn't enter the temple, which meant they might start being mad that they were paying for temples they can't enter {so we were worried they would stop giving us money}, so, ta-da, we lifted the ban and now black people can go to temples and give us money more freely". I had previously thought the church was "just" waaaaaaaay behind the times on race (which is horrifying), but after reading this it's amazing how blatantly it was/is about money. 

   


Posted: 10 December 2013 09:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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All this boldly proclaims to me is god was a racist during the early church years. And as many have stated above....It was a part of the doctrine.
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Posted: 10 December 2013 11:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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blueazure:
One thing I hadn't realized before reading the church's statement, was that blacks (er, blacks of African descent, as though that is somehow better than *all* blacks) weren't allowed into temples, either. I guess since men have to have the priesthood to go to the temple it's consistent (although still wrong), but I wonder why the restriction for women? Just too weird to let women go without their husbands? The "curse" meant no temple ordinances (in theory, wouldn't the "washing and anointing" take care of that? This whole belief system is not only false and offensive but maddeningly inconsistent...) But the church statement is basically saying "blacks couldn't enter the temple, which meant they might start being mad that they were paying for temples they can't enter {so we were worried they would stop giving us money}, so, ta-da, we lifted the ban and now black people can go to temples and give us money more freely". I had previously thought the church was "just" waaaaaaaay behind the times on race (which is horrifying), but after reading this it's amazing how blatantly it was/is about money.
I noticed that too, BlueAzure, and had the same thought.  Yes, just how obviously it is about money.  Not "we were worried some of God's children would not have these saving ordinances", but instead "we were worried they'd be pissed after giving us money."  
 
And this too!   It's like "see?  we're just a little bit racist - there are *some* blacks that are OK"
They do the same thing with polygamy where they feel the need to point out it was only 3% (or whatever the number) of mormons who participated.  If that's in your response, you're missing the point.   If you feel the need to explain that your racism was very selective, you're missing the point. 
 
BTW, speaking of polygamy, it was not the "attitude of the day" to have multiple "wives".  Somehow mormonism managed to overcome the common thinking of the times for that.  
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Posted: 10 December 2013 11:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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Theres an article in the Tribune about the LDS church leaders' new statement titled "Race and the Priesthood." Of course, many are praising the statement as wonderful, but I'd like to know exactly what's worthy of praise?
 
1- Should we praise the Brethren for rationalizing the ban as socially accepted racism at the time? 
 
2- Should we praise them for grossly misrepresenting Brigham Young’s statement to the point of lying?
 
3- Should we praise them for suggesting that the ban was based on mere “theories” when in fact it was doctrine that was reaffirmed in an official statement by the First Presidency FIVE YEARS AFTER the Civil Rights Act was passed?
 
4- Should we praise them for stopping short of a long overdue apology?
 
5- Should we praise them for now finally admitting that Brigham Young was the source of the racist policy when just months earlier they publicly claimed they had no idea how it came about? "It's so wonderful, Brethren, that you're less dishonest about this than you were a few months ago!" Is that worthy of praise?
 
If anything is praiseworthy then we should also praise a bully for ending his long abuse of another when he walks away, without apology, and while justifying it as socially accepted abuse at the time.
 
On second thought, their statement has no spelling errors. Good job Brethren! We thank thee oh God for a prophet! 
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Posted: 10 December 2013 12:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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Jeff Ricks:
Theres an article in the Tribune about the LDS church leaders' new statement titled "Race and the Priesthood." Of course, many are praising the statement as wonderful, but I'd like to know exactly what's worthy of praise?
 
1- Should we praise the Brethren for rationalizing the ban as socially accepted racism at the time? 
 
2- Should we praise them for grossly misrepresenting Brigham Young’s statement to the point of lying?
 
3- Should we praise them for suggesting that the ban was based on mere “theories” when in fact it was doctrine that was reaffirmed in an official statement by the First Presidency FIVE YEARS AFTER the Civil Rights Act was passed?
 
4- Should we praise them for stopping short of a long overdue apology?
 
5- Should we praise them for now finally admitting that Brigham Young was the source of the racist policy when just months earlier they publicly claimed they had no idea how it came about? "It's so wonderful, Brethren, that you're less dishonest about this than you were a few months ago!" Is that worthy of praise?
 
If anything is praiseworthy then we should also praise a bully for ending his long abuse of another when he walks away, without apology, and while justifying it as socially accepted abuse at the time.
 
On second thought, their statement has no spelling errors. Good job Brethren! We thank thee oh God for a prophet! 
 
Amen, Brother Ricks!  I'm equally mystified by the "praise" for the statement.  And it's cowardly the way the church does all this via its website.  How about holding a press conference like it did with the Proclamation to the Family and answering some questions?  You know, have the prophet stand up and tell us the 411 on why God's message isn't received clearly?  
 
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Posted: 10 December 2013 01:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
martyrdumb
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I want someone to ask the question: "Do you still believe the priesthood ban was commanded by god?". That's what is totally confusing from the article. I don't know if that's what they're saying or not.
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Posted: 10 December 2013 01:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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Any "explanation" for Mormon racism that stops short of revising what Mormons consider to be the so-called "Word of God" is meaningless as long as it contains the following: 

-
"...the Lord shall curse the land with much heat...and there was a blackness (2) came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people." (Moses 7:8)

"And Enoch also beheld ...the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it were the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not a place among them." (Moses 7:22)

"Now this king of Egypt was a descendant from the loins of Ham, and was a partaker of the blood of the Canaanites by birth. From this descent sprang all the Egyptians, and thus the blood of the Canaanites was preserved in the land. The land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is forbidden. When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons in it; and thus, from Ham sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land..." (Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 1:21-24, 26c)

"...he [God] said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou was chosen before thou wast born...And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate..." (Abraham 3:23, 26)

Book of Mormon Racism

"...after they had dwindled in unbelief they became a dark, and loathsome, and a filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations." (I Nephi 12:23)

"...Behold, they had hardened their hearts against him...wherefore, as they were white, and exceeding fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticingunto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their sins." (2 Nephi 5:21-22)

"And the skins of the Lamanites(4) were dark...which was a curse upon them because of their transgression against their brethren...therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a mark upon them. And this was done that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their brethren, that thereby the Lord God might preservehis people..." (Alma 3:6,8)

"And then shall they [Lamanites] rejoice...and their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and delightsome people" (2 Nephi 30:6, 1830, 1920, and 1977 editions)
And if you don't think Mormons believe MOrmons still believe those clearly racist scriptures, just attend a Gospel Doctrine class and bring up those specific scriptures. Ask if Mormons really believe their extremely racist scriptures, that are far more racist than any other scriptures on the planet, including the Bible.
While you're at it, ask them specifically what kind of a God condones equating dark skin with evil in Mormon scriptures?

Better add an answer to that question on your little index cards before you laminate them. 
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on what she does to help abuse victims, escape the prison of faith which she escaped, barely


   


Posted: 10 December 2013 02:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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martyrdumb:
I want someone to ask the question: "Do you still believe the priesthood ban was commanded by god?". That's what is totally confusing from the article. I don't know if that's what they're saying or not.
 
 YES!  That is the whole god damn point.  Of course, the answer is yes and if pressed, they would have to say yes.  They don't have a choice.
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Posted: 10 December 2013 04:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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Jeff Ricks:
Theres an article in the Tribune about the LDS church leaders' new statement titled "Race and the Priesthood." Of course, many are praising the statement as wonderful, but I'd like to know exactly what's worthy of praise?
 
1- Should we praise the Brethren for rationalizing the ban as socially accepted racism at the time? 
 
2- Should we praise them for grossly misrepresenting Brigham Young’s statement to the point of lying?
 
3- Should we praise them for suggesting that the ban was based on mere “theories” when in fact it was doctrine that was reaffirmed in an official statement by the First Presidency FIVE YEARS AFTER the Civil Rights Act was passed?
 
4- Should we praise them for stopping short of a long overdue apology?
 
5- Should we praise them for now finally admitting that Brigham Young was the source of the racist policy when just months earlier they publicly claimed they had no idea how it came about? "It's so wonderful, Brethren, that you're less dishonest about this than you were a few months ago!" Is that worthy of praise?
 
If anything is praiseworthy then we should also praise a bully for ending his long abuse of another when he walks away, without apology, and while justifying it as socially accepted abuse at the time.
 
On second thought, their statement has no spelling errors. Good job Brethren! We thank thee oh God for a prophet! 
 
Did you read (if they left them up) Steve Benson's contributions in the comments sections?  He recites, with references, all the racist caterwaling of el profeta himself, JS.  It's wonderous stuff to read!  No way did BY come up with this is on his own!  
 
But obviously neither you, nor I, nor Steve Benson are the tragets of the Declaration.  It's a PR move, designed to give the saints something to cling to, and to use to cover their eyes, as the truths of LDS history frolic on computer screens all over the world.  Apologists are telling them, "See?  We know our history, and it's okay, it only looks bad, but really isn't!"  And the saints all sigh and in their preferred format, say
 
Though hard to you this journey may appear,
Grace shall be as your day.
'Tis better far for us to strive
Our useless cares from us to drive;
Do this, and joy your hearts will swell--
All is well!  All is well! 


   


Posted: 10 December 2013 04:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
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baneberry
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Here's the problem with much of this: If the church does the right thing and now gives the blacks what they should have had all along and allows them access to all things that are enjoyed by the other members of the church, they will be satisfied and assured that the church is lead by revelation.  I can recall as I was leaving for college, the day that the church announced the change in doctrine.  I didn't care what the past was, I cared that things were right then.  I didn't ask the deeper questions that changes of course could mean if you really think about them. 
 
As an institution, the church's apology and acknowledgement does not have to be a repudiation of prophet(s) to TBM's.  It will be construed that who are critical  seem intent on holding the  Latter-day Prophets to a standard that was allowed earlier prophets.  Just from the Bible, there are stories of prophets then that don't really show them in any better light than the current ones.  So, if a TBM chooses to be contented with a course change based upon a current prophet(s) because it is the right thing to do and continues to stay active and involved they probably wouldn't have too much heartburn about the past.  
 
I am sorry that the church discriminated against people, withheld from them the things that they probably wanted the most and treated them as if they were inferior.  The civil rights movement probably  was the most important thing to happen for black people as well as the rest of us.  They rose up and insisted that they were "worthy" as humans to have all of the things that this nation that professed to be a free land and force them to acknowledge the truth of those words that all men have a right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. They were oppressed and I am sure that standing up and fighting for something that was rightfully theirs shaped their people just as other struggles have shaped the nation and the LDS Church. 
 
What I find pecular is that the standard of compliance and personal righteousness that the lay members are expected to hold while we grant so much leeway to prophets.  I figure if I ever end up in a church court for anything (not that it will help) I am going to just start citing facts about the past prophets and ask how they get to be different than me?
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http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-31-honesty?lang=eng


   


Posted: 10 December 2013 04:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
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Jeff Ricks
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Here's a KUTV news story about this.
 
http://www.kutv.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_8581.shtml 
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Posted: 10 December 2013 05:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]   

   
 
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thewriterwithin
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I won't even touch the notion it is Not a Good Thing when the LDS Church takes steps toward justice and truth -- even though they are very small, very wobbly baby steps. I'll leave that one for the minute.
 
I am troubled by the idea I find on this thread, other threads on other boards, and in comment sections that WE, meaning the PostMormon community, are responsible for this change.
 
Hmm. I have no EVIDENCE to think that. I think a great many factors can be influencing this decision, and we should learn from the LDS Church's many crash-and-burn policies (including this one) to be cautious -- about assigning ourselves glory. At least that was my take-away from leaving Mormonism.
 
I would say that the greatest push for justice -- this small justice -- and much larger justices elsewhere came from -- those who were banned from having the priesthood. While we are loudly blowing our own horn, perhaps the greatest pressure came from African descent Mormons all over the world who are proving valuable members. Wasn't the Civil Rights Movement largely the real, underlying cause of first ending the racist position, and then gradually owing -- and so disowning -- it? When we loudly announce the change is in response to OUR carping, are we so sure? How about Martin Luther King, Jr.? Did he have something to do with it? How about Rosa Parks? Where did we even get these ideas that helped us look at the Mormon Church in a new light?
 
How many here have been jailed in the cause of Civil Rights?
 
How many here have carped not only about Mormonism but about -- well -- the Civil Rights Movement? About "liberals"?
 
Here's an idea -- instead of stroking ourselves for OUR great victory in getting the church to own up to a racist past, I seriously recommend we go watch the celebration of Nelson Mandela's life.
 
It might do us some good. In more ways than one.
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Posted: 10 December 2013 07:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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thewriterwithin:
I won't even touch the notion it is Not a Good Thing when the LDS Church takes steps toward justice and truth -- even though they are very small, very wobbly baby steps. I'll leave that one for the minute.
 
I am troubled by the idea I find on this thread, other threads on other boards, and in comment sections that WE, meaning the PostMormon community, are responsible for this change.
 
Hmm. I have no EVIDENCE to think that. I think a great many factors can be influencing this decision, and we should learn from the LDS Church's many crash-and-burn policies (including this one) to be cautious -- about assigning ourselves glory. At least that was my take-away from leaving Mormonism.
 
I would say that the greatest push for justice -- this small justice -- and much larger justices elsewhere came from -- those who were banned from having the priesthood. While we are loudly blowing our own horn, perhaps the greatest pressure came from African descent Mormons all over the world who are proving valuable members. Wasn't the Civil Rights Movement largely the real, underlying cause of first ending the racist position, and then gradually owing -- and so disowning -- it? When we loudly announce the change is in response to OUR carping, are we so sure? How about Martin Luther King, Jr.? Did he have something to do with it? How about Rosa Parks? Where did we even get these ideas that helped us look at the Mormon Church in a new light?
 
How many here have been jailed in the cause of Civil Rights?
 
How many here have carped not only about Mormonism but about -- well -- the Civil Rights Movement? About "liberals"?
 
Here's an idea -- instead of stroking ourselves for OUR great victory in getting the church to own up to a racist past, I seriously recommend we go watch the celebration of Nelson Mandela's life.
 
It might do us some good. In more ways than one.
 
Oh, I have a mumbling grumble in my head of a mr john P. dehlin that they may try  give some of the credit for the new whitewash attempts by the church corporation, where he claims on his podcasts to be in contact with upper hoax executives. He has produced a survey of problematic issues Mormons have with the church. This survey list may as well be a checklist to address by the top 15 penguins. He has also gone as far as to pretend to sort of believe in order to "stay lds". The blacks and the priesthood issue is being unfurled with the timing of Nelson Mandela's death. Many brainwashing attempts predicted ahead as the topics are each public relationally addressed in full slanted ignoble glory. Business must be booming for the wishy-washy podcast master.
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Posted: 10 December 2013 07:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]   

   
 
martyrdumb
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Lloyd Dobler:
martyrdumb:
I want someone to ask the question: "Do you still believe the priesthood ban was commanded by god?". That's what is totally confusing from the article. I don't know if that's what they're saying or not.
 
 YES!  That is the whole god damn point.  Of course, the answer is yes and if pressed, they would have to say yes.  They don't have a choice.
 
 This is what is so infuriating to me. All that effort they made, the months they spent finding the right words, the couple hundred re-writes I'm sure they went through, the various rounds of approvals, etc.... all for something that didn't change a f'ing thing!! Yet the believers will rejoice at the honesty. But it's one giant exercise in  misdirection. You're right, they have no choice but to continue to answer that god was behind the priesthood ban. But they don't actually say that in this article. It's so slimy I need a shower after reading it. 
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Posted: 10 December 2013 09:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]   

   
 
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News is reporting LDS.org will issue additional statements. What ya bet a future statement will state the Church does not condone Joseph Smith taking other men’s wives.
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Posted: 11 December 2013 05:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]   

   
 
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It's hysterical that they blame "the times the prophets lived in" as an excuse for their racist ways. What a crock of pooooo.
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Posted: 12 December 2013 09:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]   

   
 
rain
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"During the first two decades of the Church’s existence, a few black men were ordained to the priesthood. One of these men, Elijah Abel, also participated in temple ceremonies in Kirtland, Ohio, and was later baptized as proxy for deceased relatives in Nauvoo, Illinois. There is no evidence that any black men were denied the priesthood during Joseph Smith’s lifetime." - From LDS Official website. I have a book entitled "Mormonism and the Negro" that I found in a Seattle used book store a few years ago. It was published in 1963 by Bookmark Division of Community Press Publishing Company. (sixth printing). It is written by a John. J. Stewart and has a supplement written by William E. Berrett ,who was member of the Utah Bar Association and was a Vice President of BYU at the time. He is sited as a Church Historian and author of the book "The Restored Church". On page 10 of Mr. Berretts supplement is this information listed under the title: "Negro -  Priesthood Not To Be Conferred Upon the Negro 1879" and is from 'Journal History' (I don't know which Journal - Brigham Young's ?)This is taken from minutes at a meeting on Saturday May 31, 1879 at the home of President A.O. Smoot, Provo Utah, Utah county at 5 o'clock PM - President John Taylor, Elders Brigham Young, Abram O. Smoot, Zebedee Coltrin and L. John Nuttall met and the subject of ordaining Negroes to the Priesthood was presented: Brother Coltrin: "The spring we went up to Zion's Camp in 1834, Brother Joseph sent Brother J. P. Green and me out south to gather up means to assist in gathering out the Saints from Jackson County, Missouri. On our return home we got in conversation about the Negro having a right to the priesthood, and I took up the side he had not right . . ." These two men eventually ask Joseph Smith his opinion on the Negro and the Priesthood. This is what he said according to Mr. Coltrin. : "Brother Joseph kind of dropped his head and rested it on his hand for a minute, and then said, 'Brother Zebedee is right, for the spirit of the Lord saith the Negro has no right and cannot hold the Priesthood.' He (JS) made no reference to Scripture at all, but such was his decision. I don't recollect ever having any conversation with him afterwards on this subject. But I have heard him say in public that no person having the least particle of Negro blood can hold the Priesthood." 

   


Posted: 12 December 2013 09:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]   

   
 
rain
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Also at this same meeting on May 31, 1979 "at the home of President A.O. Smoot, Provo, Utah, leaders of the Church reapproved that the Priesthood was not for the Negro, and that Elijah Abel was not to exercise any Priesthood rights.  The fact that subsequent to that date Elijah Able was called on a mission does not necessarily imply that he participated in any baptisms or ordinations. "- Mr. Berrett.
 
Also of interest:
At the age of 70 (1883) Mr. Abel served a mission to Canada and the U.S. He  was still a member of the 3rd Quorum of the Seventy at that time.  I wonder if anyone ever followed through on revoking his Priesthood? Anyway, he seemed like a very good man.  He was an 'undertaker' in Nauvoo and he and his wife managed the Farnham Hotel in Salt Lake City.  He died "Two weeks after his return (from his mission) on December 25, 1884, of debility, consequent upon exposure while laboring in the Ministry in Ohio. He died in full faith in the Gospel."


   


Posted: 12 December 2013 05:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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Cited as a reference in the Church & Race declaration is a tract by Kimball's son which attempts to explain to the members just how new 'revelation' came to be.  
https://byustudies.byu.edu/PDFLibrary/47.2KimballSpencerb0a083df-b26b-430b-9ce2-3efec584dcd9.pdf  
The tract covers, lightly, some of the history, including the rumblings within the membership that began with the early civil rights movement, and covers David O. McKay's tiny venture onto the topic ("Nope, it's not time....")
 
What I enjoy is the POV of the writer, and apparently most, if not all, of the participants.  "Hey, ghawd declared a curse on the sons of Cain, and he revealed to OUR prophets and apostles, the WHY of it, so while we're stuck with this TRUTH, at least we understand why it is so..."
 
At the bottom of page nine, in the footnotes, we find: "In 1908, Joseph F. Smith stated his understanding that Joseph Smith himself declared Elijah Abel's ordination 'null and void.'"  Steve Benson, in the comments section of the SLT's story on the matter schools the readers on some of JS's rhetoric on the slavery/curse issue.
 
The tract then gets into the meat of the matter, how 'fretted' Kimball was about the situation and how he so earnestly worked at getting ghawd to let them know if maybe the curse could be done away with.  There was absolutely no quibbling with what BY had said, there was no hinting at the possibility that BY had got it wrong or had acted on his own, in other words, speaking as a man.
 
The Big 15 of Kimball's time KNEW the curse came from ghawd, and that only ghawd could take it back.  And lo and behold, ghawd's heart was softened... blah blah blah... 
 
I sure would like to have access to the records of the IRS and other governmental agencies on the issue of what they were planning on doing to the church because of the institutional racism.  One wonders if there might have been a deadline the Brethren had to meet.  "Hey, Bro. Jones, here's a copy of the new revelation hot off the presses.  Be a good brother and run it over the Federal Building; I think the IRS is on the third floor."
 
 
 


   


Posted: 13 December 2013 06:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Um....since DNA is now used....one wonders if indeed the Negroid race is actually descended from Cain?? Is Cain his own haplo-group? Or like the DNA of the "Lamanites"....will it all fall apart?
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Posted: 13 December 2013 07:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]   

   
 
WinstonSmith
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Lord of Darkness:
I love how the church needs a 2,000 word essay to explain its previous practice of racism, which it blames on the prevailing societal norms.  Oops.  If only we had a prophet at the time who could chat with God and get the real skinny...
 
LoD, You illustrate what makes me so annoyed about this topic.  TSCC always protrays itself as having the 'moral highground'---one cannot go a Sunday in a TSCC meeting with out hearing the cliche "be in the world, but not of the world"---now this essay makes the excuse of---Oops!!! It wasn't our fault---it was the social norm---This essay is claiming if not admitting that the leadership in TSCC were not just in the world but also of the world, when their racist remarks where made---NICE!!!  It reminds me of when my kids where little and they got into trouble---pointing to another sibling, "He made me do it"


   


            
 
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Blog: Mormon-themed cinema has evolved from Dutcher to big-budget Sunday School stripfilms  
Posted: 21 October 2013 11:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
ldshistorybuff
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I just saw "Ephraim's Rescue" --
 
http://blogs.standard.net/the-political-surf/2013/10/21/mormon-cinema-has-evolved-into-bigger-budgeted-better-produced-sunday-school-films/ 


   


Posted: 21 October 2013 01:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Nephi
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Sunday School strip films?
 
Gayle Ruzica and Sherri Dew pole dancing and taking it all off???
 
 
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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No religion, no problems. Know religion, Know problems.


   


Posted: 22 October 2013 05:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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I like Richard's movies the best. He's honest about mormonism. These new ones make me pretty sick. 17 Miracles was just downright depressing. As if anything could make up for what mormon leaders put those poor people through.
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19th wife of Zelph


   


Posted: 24 October 2013 10:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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4thNephite
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Winyan:
I like Richard's movies the best. He's honest about mormonism. These new ones make me pretty sick. 17 Miracles was just downright depressing. As if anything could make up for what mormon leaders put those poor people through.
 
It's amazing that an indoctrinated member can look at the handcart story and see a laundry list of miracles, when to an unbiased observer it is such a stark illustration of the impotence and/or unwillingness of the Mormon god to prevent terrible tragedies from happening to his most devoted followers.
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“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.”—Heber C Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, Page 32


   


Posted: 24 October 2013 04:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Bold Wish
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thNephite: . . .  it is such a stark illustration of the impotence and/or unwillingness of the Mormon god to prevent terrible tragedies from happening to his most devoted followers.
 
But . . . this is why he's so full of love:  he allows suffering because he loves us and he knows that only when we experience prolonged excruciating pain and agony will we be able to draw closer to him and love him even more.  Don't you see the beauty and great majesty of his plan?
 
And . . . so now, I'm deliberating . . . if god is our ultimate example, and he wants us to be like him, then shouldn't I go and do something to put my children through intense pain so they will . . . um . . . oh yea, so they will be capable of understanding me more and truly love me to a higher degree?
 
 
 

 
 
 
 
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When I discovered the truth and realized the organization was lying to me, that they had always been lying to me, I felt a sting of betrayal, the humiliation from an organization who profits abundantly by violating trust.  I knew that no matter what would come of it, I could no longer remain associated with the organization in any way.  Since leaving, I’ve enjoyed thinking on my own, guilt is almost a foreign concept, and being in control of my life is incredibly satisfying.


   


Posted: 26 October 2013 08:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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thNephite:
Winyan:
I like Richard's movies the best. He's honest about mormonism. These new ones make me pretty sick. 17 Miracles was just downright depressing. As if anything could make up for what mormon leaders put those poor people through.
 
It's amazing that an indoctrinated member can look at the handcart story and see a laundry list of miracles, when to an unbiased observer it is such a stark illustration of the impotence and/or unwillingness of the Mormon god to prevent terrible tragedies from happening to his most devoted followers.
 
 I don't think it had anything to do with God. It was the mormon leaders who put people through those terrible things. If we choose to put our faith in false prophets, there are natural consequences. If you choose to set out pushing a handcart across the wilderness during the winter, chances are you could freeze to death. It's not fair to blame God or expect to be bailed out all the time.
 
 
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19th wife of Zelph


   


            
 
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