Ultimate Brokeback Mountain response to comment

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 December 15, 2013, 05:37:23 PM 
 
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The Daily Sheet - Dec. 10: Nelson Mandela and LGBT Rights, Cleveland Transgender Community rocked by murder, Philadelphia teacher fired for gay marriage, waitress fired - starts to return donations, Jake Gyllenhaal shows off injury, Vin Diesel wants Ang Lee.
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BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN: the dozy embrace  
» ULTIMATE BROKEBACK GUIDE
Our obsessive guide to the heartbreaking yet oddly universal story of two gay cowboys in love
  
»
Meet the authors and volunteers who put together "Beyond Brokeback: The Impact of a Film" and order your book.

 


The Daily Sheet - Dec. 10: Nelson Mandela and LGBT Rights, Cleveland Transgender Community rocked by murder, Philadelphia teacher fired for gay marriage, waitress fired - starts to return donations, Jake Gyllenhaal shows off injury, Vin Diesel wants Ang Lee.
Brokeback screenings: Info only

        
 [quote author=Sason link=topic=1287.msg2430512#msg2430512 date=1378591399]
Too bad Ennis didn't think to ask you what he should feel about the dead sheep.
[/quote]

 I understand what you are saying Sason but I must say that I don't share Ennis' perspective.  I think the dead sheep incident was purely an accident.  I don't think Ennis would have to ask me about what he should feel over the dead sheep. He would be  entitled to his opinion. I do think it would be a shame if he viewed it as being the result of " sinning". It had nothing to do with " sin" to me. The sheep getting killed was not something that Ennis intended to happen. Sure he was ignoring his responsibilities and he shouldn't have but the deed had already been done.  I think organized religion in particular is something Ennis didn't really care for.  Most religions are not accepting of LGBT people, particularly those LGBT people who refuse to repress themselves that are in romantically and sexually-active relationships. Ennis was probably indoctrinated by his Methodist parents at a young age. I imagine he was told what to think and not how to think. Ennis didn't like attending the fire-and-brimstone message that Alma and her daughter's Methodist church congregation espoused. Try going to a meeting at a Jehovah's Witness Kingdom Hall or a service at a Latter-day Saint ( Mormon) Stake Center. ( I am also a former Mormon). A JW elder will just tell you that Yahweh's army is going to kill you and all other non-JW's at the battle of " Armageddon" and you shall remain dead for eternity and miss out on living on a newly-restored earthly paradise for eternity ( SDA's also hold this view, except you are annihilated twice; the second time is being annihilated by fire after Armageddon when Jesus tells all the " evil" people what they did wrong) while a Mormon Bishop will say you will either be put into one of the two lower kingdoms of heaven or be separated from Yahweh where you will be tormented for eternity by your own thoughts.

Religiously- inspired prejudice is often viewed as acceptable by far too many societies and no doubt Ennis had to have heard homophobic remarks from the pulpit growing up. Jack's mother was a Pentecostal and she seemed to be accepting of Jack and Ennis' relationship despite the fact her religious texts views same-sex relationships as " abominable", " shameful lust",  an "error" " unnatural " and is " punishable by death", for which they " receive recompense for their error" and reads that same-sex couples " will not inherit the kingdom of Yahweh".  I personally don't believe same-sex relationships are " abominations", " shameful lust", " error", " unnatural" nor do I think gay sex  should be " punishable" by death nor do I believe having gay sex is an " error" for which gay people will " receive recompense" and I think that if there was a loving god, if it also just happened to be Yahweh that same-sex couples should be able to inherit Yahweh's kingdom. Religiously-inspired prejudice comes in many forms. I mean, the Bible does  support the holding and beating of slaves, Yahweh most certainly endorses genocide towards the pagans by the Israelites and it promotes the submission of women. Jesus even calls a gentile woman a " dog" for being apart of a different culture. Ennis would have been familiar with arguments that religious fundamentalist used in the 1960's to prevent integration between whites and African-Americans. Many of these arguments have been used towards women and the LGBT community.

I have no problem with LGBT persons that want to be religious but I still think that most religions say and do many horrible things about and to the LGBT community. If some LGBT people can find a way to live life as an authentically gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered person and still be religious, then great. It still doesn't change the fact that most religious groups deny sexually-active gay , lesbian bisexual persons in same-sex relationships  or transgendered people who have gone through a sex-change operation membership in their groups if you ask me . It doesn't change the facts that most religious texts text have very homophobic passages written in them just like other prejudices they contain towards cross dressers, people of other religions, which  is how I view it. I think that the views that most religious texts take towards same-sex relationships, cross dressers and women are wrong and I think they should be condemned for the harm that they caused. I think such passages should not be taken literally and should even be ignored.

As I said, I am formerly religious, I was never homophobic, for which I am quite glad. I think it is important to question one's beliefs. Most religions don't allow you to question your beliefs. I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness for 22 years of my life so I know what can happen if you dare to question your beliefs. The JW's shun former members. It is a requirement. I'm lucky in that my father happened to be a liberal Seventh-day Adventist ( I am a former SDA as well). I think he helped me stay sane. I never had a good relationship with my controlling and self-absorbed mother who gets mad if you don't do everything her way ( the JW way) all the time. Becoming an atheist was not an easy conclusion to come to. It isn't easy to abandon one's religious beliefs, if you are an atheist who was once involved with religion. No formerly religious atheist in their right mind would describe it as an easy or enjoyable process. It isn't.  I have always been liberal and I realized that I couldn't go on belonging to so many religious groups that I ended up disagreeing with in the first place.  It just made me feel so dishonest. I always questioned things. I had to question things. I couldn't deal with having a religious authority tell me what to think and what to feel.
Anyways, the dead sheep to me was just an accident. Sure this scene may be a from of foreshadowing and the sheep's death might have had a religious meaning to Ennis, I can accept that Ennis felt that way but I personally don't  share that perspective.











[quote author=Sason link=topic=1287.msg2430512#msg2430512 date=1378591399]
Too bad Ennis didn't think to ask you what he should feel about the dead sheep.
[/quote]

 I understand what you are saying Sason but I must say that I don't share Ennis' perspective.  I think the dead sheep incident was purely an accident.  I don't think Ennis would have to ask me about what he should feel over the dead sheep. He would be  entitled to his opinion. I do think it would be a shame if he viewed it as being the result of " sinning". It had nothing to do with " sin" to me. The sheep getting killed was not something that Ennis intended to happen. Sure he was ignoring his responsibilities and he shouldn't have but the deed had already been done.  I think organized religion in particular is something Ennis didn't really care for.  Most religions are not accepting of LGBT people, particularly those LGBT people who refuse to repress themselves that are in romantically and sexually-active relationships. Ennis was probably indoctrinated by his Methodist parents at a young age. I imagine he was told what to think and not how to think. Ennis didn't like attending the fire-and-brimstone message that Alma and her daughter's Methodist church congregation espoused. Try going to a meeting at a Jehovah's Witness Kingdom Hall or a service at a Latter-day Saint ( Mormon) Stake Center. ( I am also a former Mormon). A JW elder will just tell you that Yahweh's army is going to kill you and all other non-JW's at the battle of " Armageddon" and you shall remain dead for eternity and miss out on living on a newly-restored earthly paradise for eternity ( SDA's also hold this view, except you are annihilated twice; the second time is being annihilated by fire after Armageddon when Jesus tells all the " evil" people what they did wrong) while a Mormon Bishop will say you will either be put into one of the two lower kingdoms of heaven or be separated from Yahweh where you will be tormented for eternity by your own thoughts.

Religiously- inspired prejudice is often viewed as acceptable by far too many societies and no doubt Ennis had to have heard homophobic remarks from the pulpit growing up. Jack's mother was a Pentecostal and she seemed to be accepting of Jack and Ennis' relationship despite the fact her religious texts views same-sex relationships as " abominable", " shameful lust",  an "error" " unnatural " and is " punishable by death", for which they " receive recompense for their error" and reads that same-sex couples " will not inherit the kingdom of Yahweh".  I personally don't believe same-sex relationships are " abominations", " shameful lust", " error", " unnatural" nor do I think gay sex  should be " punishable" by death nor do I believe having gay sex is an " error" for which gay people will " receive recompense" and I think that if there was a loving god, if it also just happened to be Yahweh that same-sex couples should be able to inherit Yahweh's kingdom. Religiously-inspired prejudice comes in many forms. I mean, the Bible does  support the holding and beating of slaves, Yahweh most certainly endorses genocide towards the pagans by the Israelites and it promotes the submission of women. Jesus even calls a gentile woman a " dog" for being apart of a different culture. Ennis would have been familiar with arguments that religious fundamentalist used in the 1960's to prevent integration between whites and African-Americans. Many of these arguments have been used towards women and the LGBT community.

I have no problem with LGBT persons that want to be religious but I still think that most religions say and do many horrible things about and to the LGBT community. If some LGBT people can find a way to live life as an authentically gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered person and still be religious, then great. It still doesn't change the fact that most religious groups deny sexually-active gay , lesbian bisexual persons in same-sex relationships  or transgendered people who have gone through a sex-change operation membership in their groups if you ask me . It doesn't change the facts that most religious texts text have very homophobic passages written in them just like other prejudices they contain towards cross dressers, people of other religions, which  is how I view it. I think that the views that most religious texts take towards same-sex relationships, cross dressers and women are wrong and I think they should be condemned for the harm that they caused. I think such passages should not be taken literally and should even be ignored.

As I said, I am formerly religious, I was never homophobic, for which I am quite glad. I think it is important to question one's beliefs. Most religions don't allow you to question your beliefs. I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness for 22 years of my life so I know what can happen if you dare to question your beliefs. The JW's shun former members. It is a requirement. I'm lucky in that my father happened to be a liberal Seventh-day Adventist ( I am a former SDA as well). I think he helped me stay sane. I never had a good relationship with my controlling and self-absorbed mother who gets mad if you don't do everything her way ( the JW way) all the time. Becoming an atheist was not an easy conclusion to come to. It isn't easy to abandon one's religious beliefs, if you are an atheist who was once involved with religion. No formerly religious atheist in their right mind would describe it as an easy or enjoyable process. It isn't.  I have always been liberal and I realized that I couldn't go on belonging to so many religious groups that I ended up disagreeing with in the first place.  It just made me feel so dishonest. I always questioned things. I had to question things. I couldn't deal with having a religious authority tell me what to think and what to feel.
Anyways, the dead sheep to me was just an accident. Sure this scene may be a from of foreshadowing and the sheep's death might have had a religious meaning to Ennis, I can accept that Ennis felt that way but I personally don't  share that perspective.



The Ultimate Brokeback Forum





 December 15, 2013, 07:02:58 PM 
 
BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN: the dozy embrace  
» ULTIMATE BROKEBACK GUIDE
Our obsessive guide to the heartbreaking yet oddly universal story of two gay cowboys in love
  
»
Meet the authors and volunteers who put together "Beyond Brokeback: The Impact of a Film" and order your book. 
 
 


The Daily Sheet - Dec. 10: Nelson Mandela and LGBT Rights, Cleveland Transgender Community rocked by murder, Philadelphia teacher fired for gay marriage, waitress fired - starts to return donations, Jake Gyllenhaal shows off injury, Vin Diesel wants Ang Lee.
Brokeback screenings: Info only


Quote from: Sason on September 07, 2013, 04:02:56 PM
Too bad Ennis didn't think to ask you what he should feel about the dead sheep.


 I understand what you are saying Sason but I must say that I don't share Ennis' perspective.  I think the dead sheep incident was purely an accident.  I don't think Ennis would have to ask me about what he should feel over the dead sheep. He would be  entitled to his opinion. I do think it would be a shame if he viewed it as being the result of " sinning". It had nothing to do with " sin" to me. The sheep getting killed was not something that Ennis intended to happen. Sure he was ignoring his responsibilities and he shouldn't have but the deed had already been done.  I think organized religion in particular is something Ennis didn't really care for.  Most religions are not accepting of LGBT people, particularly those LGBT people who refuse to repress themselves that are in romantically and sexually-active relationships. Ennis was probably indoctrinated by his Methodist parents at a young age. I imagine he was told what to think and not how to think. Ennis didn't like attending the fire-and-brimstone message that Alma and her daughter's Methodist church congregation espoused. Try going to a meeting at a Jehovah's Witness Kingdom Hall or a service at a Latter-day Saint ( Mormon) Stake Center. ( I am also a former Mormon). A JW elder will just tell you that Yahweh's army is going to kill you and all other non-JW's at the battle of " Armageddon" and you shall remain dead for eternity and miss out on living on a newly-restored earthly paradise for eternity ( SDA's also hold this view, except you are annihilated twice; the second time is being annihilated by fire after Armageddon when Jesus tells all the " evil" people what they did wrong) while a Mormon Bishop will say you will either be put into one of the two lower kingdoms of heaven or be separated from Yahweh where you will be tormented for eternity by your own thoughts.

Religiously- inspired prejudice is often viewed as acceptable by far too many societies and no doubt Ennis had to have heard homophobic remarks from the pulpit growing up. Jack's mother was a Pentecostal and she seemed to be accepting of Jack and Ennis' relationship despite the fact her religious texts views same-sex relationships as " abominable", " shameful lust",  an "error" " unnatural " and is " punishable by death", for which they " receive recompense for their error" and reads that same-sex couples " will not inherit the kingdom of Yahweh".  I personally don't believe same-sex relationships are " abominations", " shameful lust", " error", " unnatural" nor do I think gay sex  should be " punishable" by death nor do I believe having gay sex is an " error" for which gay people will " receive recompense" and I think that if there was a loving god, if it also just happened to be Yahweh that same-sex couples should be able to inherit Yahweh's kingdom. Religiously-inspired prejudice comes in many forms. I mean, the Bible does  support the holding and beating of slaves, Yahweh most certainly endorses genocide towards the pagans by the Israelites and it promotes the submission of women. Jesus even calls a gentile woman a " dog" ( a racial slur at the time) for being apart of a different culture. These are views that I certainly cannot and don't find acceptable.
For instance, Ennis would have been familiar with arguments that religious fundamentalist used in the 1960's to prevent integration between whites and African-Americans. Many of these same arguments have been used towards women and the LGBT community in one way or another.

I really have no problem with LGBT persons that want to be religious whether that be Christian, Muslim, Jewish , Buddhist, Hindu, Baha'i or whatever but I still think that most religions say and do many horrible things about and to the LGBT community. If some LGBT people can find a way to live life as an authentically gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered person and still be religious, then great. It still doesn't change the fact that most religious groups deny sexually-active gay , lesbian bisexual persons in same-sex relationships  or transgendered people who have gone through a sex-change operation membership in their groups if you ask me . It doesn't change the facts that most religious texts text have very homophobic passages written in them and some other prejudices I think are wrong that these texts contain such as the ones towards cross dressers, people of other religions. This is just how I view it. I think that the views and practices that most religious texts take towards same-sex relationships, cross dressers and women are wrong and I think they should be condemned for the harm that they caused. I think such passages and practices should not be taken literally and should even be ignored.

As I said, I am formerly religious, I was never homophobic, for which I am quite glad. I think it is important to question one's beliefs. Most religions don't allow you to question your beliefs. I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness for 22 years of my life so I know what can happen if you dare to question your beliefs. The JW's shun former members. It is a requirement. I'm lucky in that my father happened to be a liberal Seventh-day Adventist ( I am a former SDA as well). I think he helped me stay sane. I never had a good relationship with my controlling and self-absorbed mother who gets mad if you don't do everything her way ( the JW way) all the time. Becoming an atheist was not an easy conclusion to come to. It isn't easy to abandon one's religious beliefs, if you are an atheist who was once involved with religion. No formerly religious atheist in their right mind would describe it as an easy or enjoyable process. It isn't.  I have always been liberal and I realized that I couldn't go on belonging to so many religious groups that I ended up disagreeing with.  It just made me feel so dishonest. I always questioned things. I had to question things. I couldn't deal with having a religious authority tell me what to think and what to feel.
Anyways, the dead sheep to me was just an accident. Sure this scene may be a from of foreshadowing and the sheep's death might have had a religious meaning to Ennis, I can accept that Ennis felt that way but I personally don't  share that perspective.  


 
 


The Daily Sheet - Dec. 10: Nelson Mandela and LGBT Rights, Cleveland Transgender Community rocked by murder, Philadelphia teacher fired for gay marriage, waitress fired - starts to return donations, Jake Gyllenhaal shows off injury, Vin Diesel wants Ang Lee.
Brokeback screenings: Info only


Quote from: Sason on September 07, 2013, 04:02:56 PM
Too bad Ennis didn't think to ask you what he should feel about the dead sheep.


 I understand what you are saying Sason but I must say that I don't share Ennis' perspective.  I think the dead sheep incident was purely an accident.  I don't think Ennis would have to ask me about what he should feel over the dead sheep. He would be  entitled to his opinion. I do think it would be a shame if he viewed it as being the result of " sinning". It had nothing to do with " sin" to me. The sheep getting killed was not something that Ennis intended to happen. Sure he was ignoring his responsibilities and he shouldn't have but the deed had already been done.  I think organized religion in particular is something Ennis didn't really care for.  Most religions are not accepting of LGBT people, particularly those LGBT people who refuse to repress themselves that are in romantically and sexually-active relationships. Ennis was probably indoctrinated by his Methodist parents at a young age. I imagine he was told what to think and not how to think. Ennis didn't like attending the fire-and-brimstone message that Alma and her daughter's Methodist church congregation espoused. Try going to a meeting at a Jehovah's Witness Kingdom Hall or a service at a Latter-day Saint ( Mormon) Stake Center. ( I am also a former Mormon). A JW elder will just tell you that Yahweh's army is going to kill you and all other non-JW's at the battle of " Armageddon" and you shall remain dead for eternity and miss out on living on a newly-restored earthly paradise for eternity ( SDA's also hold this view, except you are annihilated twice; the second time is being annihilated by fire after Armageddon when Jesus tells all the " evil" people what they did wrong) while a Mormon Bishop will say you will either be put into one of the two lower kingdoms of heaven or be separated from Yahweh where you will be tormented for eternity by your own thoughts.

Religiously- inspired prejudice is often viewed as acceptable by far too many societies and no doubt Ennis had to have heard homophobic remarks from the pulpit growing up. Jack's mother was a Pentecostal and she seemed to be accepting of Jack and Ennis' relationship despite the fact her religious texts views same-sex relationships as " abominable", " shameful lust",  an "error" " unnatural " and is " punishable by death", for which they " receive recompense for their error" and reads that same-sex couples " will not inherit the kingdom of Yahweh".  I personally don't believe same-sex relationships are " abominations", " shameful lust", " error", " unnatural" nor do I think gay sex  should be " punishable" by death nor do I believe having gay sex is an " error" for which gay people will " receive recompense" and I think that if there was a loving god, if it also just happened to be Yahweh that same-sex couples should be able to inherit Yahweh's kingdom. Religiously-inspired prejudice comes in many forms. I mean, the Bible does  support the holding and beating of slaves, Yahweh most certainly endorses genocide towards the pagans by the Israelites and it promotes the submission of women. Jesus even calls a gentile woman a " dog" ( a racial slur at the time) for being apart of a different culture. These are views that I certainly cannot and don't find acceptable.
For instance, Ennis would have been familiar with arguments that religious fundamentalist used in the 1960's to prevent integration between whites and African-Americans. Many of these same arguments have been used towards women and the LGBT community in one way or another.

I really have no problem with LGBT persons that want to be religious whether that be Christian, Muslim, Jewish , Buddhist, Hindu, Baha'i or whatever but I still think that most religions say and do many horrible things about and to the LGBT community. If some LGBT people can find a way to live life as an authentically gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered person and still be religious, then great. It still doesn't change the fact that most religious groups deny sexually-active gay , lesbian bisexual persons in same-sex relationships  or transgendered people who have gone through a sex-change operation membership in their groups if you ask me . It doesn't change the facts that most religious texts text have very homophobic passages written in them and some other prejudices I think are wrong that these texts contain such as the ones towards cross dressers, people of other religions. This is just how I view it. I think that the views and practices that most religious texts take towards same-sex relationships, cross dressers and women are wrong and I think they should be condemned for the harm that they caused. I think such passages and practices should not be taken literally and should even be ignored.

As I said, I am formerly religious, I was never homophobic, for which I am quite glad. I think it is important to question one's beliefs. Most religions don't allow you to question your beliefs. I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness for 22 years of my life so I know what can happen if you dare to question your beliefs. The JW's shun former members. It is a requirement. I'm lucky in that my father happened to be a liberal Seventh-day Adventist ( I am a former SDA as well). I think he helped me stay sane. I never had a good relationship with my controlling and self-absorbed mother who gets mad if you don't do everything her way ( the JW way) all the time. Becoming an atheist was not an easy conclusion to come to. It isn't easy to abandon one's religious beliefs, if you are an atheist who was once involved with religion. No formerly religious atheist in their right mind would describe it as an easy or enjoyable process. It isn't.  I have always been liberal and I realized that I couldn't go on belonging to so many religious groups that I ended up disagreeing with.  It just made me feel so dishonest. I always questioned things. I had to question things. I couldn't deal with having a religious authority tell me what to think and what to feel.
Anyways, the dead sheep to me was just an accident. Sure this scene may be a from of foreshadowing and the sheep's death might have had a religious meaning to Ennis, I can accept that Ennis felt that way but I personally don't  share that perspective.