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Jehovah’s Witness New Orleans airport machete attacker dies
Posted on March 23, 2015

Richard White pictured shortly after the incident
Richard White pictured shortly after the incident

Richard White, 63, a Jehovah’s Witness, has been identified by authorities as the man who wielded a machete on Friday night (March 20, 2015) at Louis Armstrong, New Orleans International Airport.
Also armed with insect spray during the attack, White charged past Transportation Safety Administration agents in Concourse B, spraying insecticide into their eyes and brandishing a machete just before 8 pm local time.
TSA Officer, JPSO Lt. Heather Slyve, who was stationed at the security checkpoint, opened fire, apparently striking White three times but also shooting a female TSA agent in the arm and grazing a male traveler.
Jefferson Parish Sheriff Newell Normand told reporters White was a taxi driver and recently received a chauffeur’s license. He had a minimal criminal history — “some ‘disturbing the peace’ charges and a couple of traffic attachments.”
A former neighbor, Donna Jackson, told The Times Picayune that White “was a deeply religious man,” describing him as “a Jehovah’s Witness who shunned Western medicine.” White apparently encouraged her to use herbal remedies to treat her diabetes.
Jackson said the Whites attend the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah’s Witnesses near the airport at 301 Veterans Memorial Blvd in Kenner.


After the incident White was transported to the hospital and refused “certain types of medical care” according to Sheriff Newell Normand. He died at 4.02pm local time on Saturday March 21st, 2015.
The Sheriff confirmed that, during the attack, White dropped a lighter and a bag of six glass Mason jars with cloth wicks soaked in gasoline.
Smoke bombs and tanks of highly-flammable acetylene, refrigeration gas Freon and oxygen were discovered in the trunk of his car, the Sheriff said.
His motives and reasons for being at the airport are unknown. His family are said to be co-operating with law enforcement and have indicated that White was known to experience mental health issues.

susannah-signature






Further reading…
◾NBC: Suspect in Machete Attack at New Orleans Airport Has Died
◾NBC: Authorities Try to Determine New Orleans Airport Machete Attacker’s Motive
◾ABC: Authorities Search for Motive in Machete-Wielding Airport Attack
◾Breitbart: Louisiana Airport Attacker Was Jehovah’s Witness, Had Molotov Cocktails
◾Jehovah’s Witness Reporter article


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66 Responses to Jehovah’s Witness New Orleans airport machete attacker dies

 Sherri says:

 March 23, 2015 at 4:54 am

I wonder how long it will take before the Society issues a statement saying that this particular person was not a member in good standing in his congregation. A tragic case.
Reply
 

 chatpal says:

 March 23, 2015 at 5:02 am

how much can we bet he was on some sort of antidepressants?
Reply
 
 Mary says:

 March 25, 2015 at 11:51 am

Actually, the poor buggar probably wasn’t on medication at all. I think the article said he ‘shunned all Western medicine’. And unfortunately, this was the end result.
Reply
 
 

 Gareth says:

 March 23, 2015 at 5:15 am

Wow! An agent shooting in a hall full of people, what are they thinking?!? Have they had training?! Is this supposed to be safety? Using teamwork to take control of a situation? It’s pathetic!
Reply
 

 Gareth says:

 March 23, 2015 at 5:18 am

Due to using such extreme force, this guy can’t be put to justice, and we will perhaps never discover his motivation…
Reply
 
 JBob says:

 March 23, 2015 at 3:03 pm

Gareth, you missed a point, it wasn’t extreme force, it was subduing force. If the machete wielder had taken the Western medical treatments (strong implication that no blood was used), the probability increased of surviving the wound and not bleeding out on the operating table.
There but for the grace of God goes “tight pants”…
Reply
 
 Gareth says:

 March 24, 2015 at 3:12 am

Hi JBob. I would have believed it to be subduing force if it were one shot in the leg. In this case it was three shots; chest, leg, and face. Reports are that White was at first spraying, then took his machete, an officer hit him with luggage; so some time passed in which agents could execute their trained response action. Shooting someone three times is evidence of a fear reaction to me, not a well reasoned response.
Reply
 

 Criticus says:

 March 24, 2015 at 2:49 pm

That’s exactly what I thought. Probably a case of “tight pants”. As many people are known to think “down there”, the tight pants must have cut off blood flow from his brain, which had a negative impact on his clear thinking faculties. So: Tony III is right – RIGHT? Tight pants are baaaaad 4 u.
Reply
 
 
 

 Ron says:

 March 23, 2015 at 5:21 am

When the control of a cult enforces all that it does on each ones life, its no surprise that anyone with mental health problems had then worsened.
Reply
 

 kat says:

 March 23, 2015 at 5:42 am

Being in the military then becoming a JW didn’t help did it, poor man. so very sad pleased no one else was fatally injured, hope some more comes out about this man’s life. Who knows what medication he was on and what triggered this terrible freak out.
Reply
 
 Criticus says:

 March 24, 2015 at 2:53 pm

What triggered this terrible freak out? Simple: He was probably mixing up “wielding the sword of the spirit” with “swinging the machete of the evil spirits”. His pants were just too tight …
Reply
 
 Criticus says:

 March 24, 2015 at 2:57 pm

BTW: The greek word for “sword” (like in Eph 6,17) is “máchaira”, from which our modern “machete” is derived. Soooo … it all makes sense now.
Reply
 

 Charles Costante says:

 March 24, 2015 at 3:06 pm

It’s a pity he wasn’t wearing the ‘breastplate of righteousness’, Citricus. It might have saved his life!
Reply
 
 Criticus says:

 March 24, 2015 at 3:14 pm

Sure, if it would have been bulletproof – along with the “helmet of salvation” to keep the lead away from his think bulb – nah, that wouldn’t have been necessary, as his brain was elsewhere (further down, in the “tight pants”-region. And I like the “Citricus”, that’s funny.)
Reply
 

 Charles Costante says:

 March 24, 2015 at 3:15 pm

I’m sorry, Criticus. I just realized I spelled your name incorrectly.
Reply
 
 Criticus says:

 March 24, 2015 at 3:19 pm

That’s OK, no offense taken. Else, I could take my machete and come over to have a little chat …

 
 
 
 
 

 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 March 23, 2015 at 6:01 am

*** yb12 p. 229 Rwanda ***
 The Kingdom Hall was used as a hospital
It was a Cholera Outbreak. Kingdom Halls should be used as hospitals not only for Cholera Outbreaks, but also for Mental Health problems in JWs! Most of them are Masochistic others suffer different types of mental illnesses.
Consider the following from JWs publications, do you think JWs are different?
*** g93 4/8 p. 28 Watching the World ***
 Teenage Satanism
 Satanism is gaining ground in schools in Johannesburg, South Africa. According to the newspaper The Star, one psychologist says she has treated a number of students affected by Satanism. Patients spoke of suburban covens that took drugs and practiced sex and sadomasochistic orgies. Contrary to stereotypes, she says, “these children look perfectly respectable.” A police officer told The Star that police are aware of satanic groups throughout the country. Satanism is not illegal, but the police follow up on crimes related to satanic rituals. They recently arrested a teenage girl and her boyfriend for the murder of a 38-year-old woman. Both were involved with Satanism, and they told the police that they committed the murder under demonic influence.
Reply
 

 John Threadgold says:

 March 23, 2015 at 6:19 am

This is so sad on so many levels. The Man who did this, was obviously in a great deal of distress. The fact that he was shot dead by the Police. I live in England where the police are not generally armed. I feel appalled that a mentally Ill man was shot dead like this. And who knows his life history, to say what role the Watchtower had in this ? Some one else said he was ex army, and if true he could have experienced trauma that remained unresolved and acted out in this incident.
Reply
 
 Big D says:

 March 23, 2015 at 10:21 am

So…I guess when some is running after you, waving a machete, with explosives at the ready, we should just politely ask them to drop their weapon. Maybe wrestle them to the ground, if you can do so without getting your hands chopped off. You don’t sound too bright.
Reply
 
 GEM says:

 March 23, 2015 at 11:33 am

Ever heard of a TASER, Big D.
I think I am safe in saying that most Brits. are left speechless at American gun law.
This man appears to have served his country, which turned him into a Killing machine to uphold American Foreign policy. God only knows what trauma the poor man faced…so he finds God for a while, which gives him some relief from his Angst… and then the poor git flipps….sorry Big D..
They may have had to take him down for the safety of others…but they didn’t need to take him out!
Reply
 
 Big D says:

 March 23, 2015 at 12:50 pm

Tasers are mostly single round devices..a few can carry three rounds. The taser barb is ineffective if the attacker is wearing thick clothing or body armor–just ask the police in Copenhagen, or in Paris, at the site of the Charlie Hebdo attacks.
Also, reports seem to indicate that he died after arriving at the hospital and refusing an emergency blood transfusion.
Reply
 
 Big D says:

 March 23, 2015 at 1:01 pm

Oh, and I’m not fond of US gun laws and how they allow such easy access to untrained civilians. I also agree that our foreign policy is misguided. I just don’t see what this has to do with a trained police officer TAKING DOWN a machete wielding attacker bent on destruction. I supposed the lady officer should have asked: “have you taken your meds today, sir?” before acting.

 
 
 
 
 

 anonymous says:

 March 23, 2015 at 6:53 am

It seems he was trying to blow the place up and killing an awful lot of people and it seems that in the hospital they tried to save him but I bet he refused blood since he’s a witness. It is very sad. I think he might have been on anti-psychotic medication which a lot of times makes people imagine things that aren’t there.
Reply
 

 Excelsior! says:

 March 23, 2015 at 7:14 am

Folks,
What a sad situation. Rest in peace, Mr White.
I am relieved that he did not cause any fatalities.
We shall never know what triggered his attack, but being a JW did not help him.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 

 John Baptist says:

 March 23, 2015 at 9:24 am

This could have and does happen with individuals in any religion. Where it goes terribly wrong for those who are devoted or associated with the Jehovah’s Witness’s is that their Governing Body through their printed page and advice from inexperienced elders look down on seeking outside professional help from educated “Worldly” Professionals. It was stated that he had mental issues that obviously from his actions were not treated in a Professional way or his religion only compounded the problem.
Reply
 

 Mama Joy says:

 March 23, 2015 at 9:54 am

I wonder what is being said at his local Kingdom Hall about the end times and airport security, terrorism, etc,??
Reply
 

 Mama Joy says:

 March 23, 2015 at 9:59 am

Was he about to be disfellowshipped and lost it?
A Jehovah’s Witness doesn’t do anything without the Watchtower controlling their actions, thoughts, etc,.
What message was being heard in his Kingdom Hall?
Reply
 
 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 March 24, 2015 at 2:19 am

@Mama Joy, according to their Theocratic Ministry School Schedule for 2015, they are reading 1 Samuel.
(1 Samuel 15:3) . . .You must not spare them; you are to put them to death, man as well as woman, child as well as infant, bull as well as sheep, camel as well as donkey.’”
Reply
 
 

 Jakemon75 says:

 March 23, 2015 at 11:11 am

Organizational statement.
“Jehovah’s Witnesses abhor hacking travelers with a machette and strive to protect travelers from such acts.”
Reply
 

 Rowland Nelken says:

 March 23, 2015 at 11:28 am

Has there been any research on the percentages of the mentally unstable who are attracted to JWdom in the first place? That is quite apart from any mental problems and distress caused by living on a diet of JW poison.
We hear of newsworthy monsters like Rosemary West, the Yorkshire Ripper and that sadistic foster mum from Gloucestershire, recently released from Jail.
Does the Watchtower attract, indeed find easy prey amongst the inadequate, more than other evangelising religious groups?
Tightpants Tony seems clearly to have been damaged by his pre JW Vietnam experience.
I presume that a case like the one here, even if it leaves the front pages, will continue to be news, and we may discover more about what led to the guy’s apparently murderous plans, and whether the JW connection could have been a cause of his problems, a symptom, neither or both.
Any studies, if there have been any, on the psycho state of JW recruits, would be interesting.
Reply
 
 Big D says:

 March 23, 2015 at 1:31 pm

If someone has a preexisting condition BEFORE becoming a JW, just seems like a disaster waiting to happen. Like pouring gasoline on a fire.
Take our service vets for example. Many of them find support from other vets, such as those from the Vietnam era. Others find professional counseling through the VA or other organizations. It ain’t perfect, but every little bit helps. Now, imagine becoming a JW and being told that your veteran buddies, with shared experiences are now ‘bad associations.’ Also, your ‘worldly’ therapists are not worth seeing.
It’s like pouring gasoline on a fire, so it seems.
Reply
 
 

 Jakemon75 says:

 March 23, 2015 at 12:03 pm

Something tells me that no one at his local hall is surprised in the least.
I could rattle off the names of 4-5 oddballs who were in and out of congregational trouble in my 33 years there.
I’m certain anyone can think back and remember someone in the cult that was a little “off”, a “loner”. Someone who always gave you the creeps. Someone where news like this would not surprise you.
Reply
 
 Linda says:

 March 23, 2015 at 7:49 pm

So true, my congregation was full of some of the strangest people you could ever meet.
Reply
 
 

 sirius says:

 March 23, 2015 at 12:29 pm

Soooo, 1984 version of the progressive NWT calls apostates as “mentally diseased” while the newer 2013 are just labeled as “obsessed”.
Reply
 

 Pickled brain says:

 March 23, 2015 at 12:41 pm

@Jakemon75. I think your comment was BRILLIANT & had me Rolling about the floor laughing my head off!! The Governing Body ABHORS Child Abuse& ABHORS Hacking Travellers at Airports with MACHETES!!!
Reply
 
 Pickled brain says:

 March 23, 2015 at 12:50 pm

The Governing Body ABHOR Religions that make False Prophecies& ABHOR Birthdays as they Glorify and give undue attention to an individual BUT not Wedding Anniversaries as they ONLY Glorify TWO People ???? JEHOVAH Witnesses ABHOR Blood Transfusions as Blood should be poured out onto the ground BUT Blood Fractions which come from Worldly people who Don’t pour their blood onto the ground we can use their blood to get blood fractions from to save our life!!
 Thank JEHOVAH for Worldly people’s Blood!!
Reply
 
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 23, 2015 at 12:52 pm

“Jehovah’s Happy People”
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 23, 2015 at 12:57 pm

Apparently this man was in the military at one time. Wonder if he was a Vietnam Vet. Age is about right.
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 23, 2015 at 1:02 pm

If people don’t have psychological problems before joining WT, they soon will.
Reply
 
 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 March 24, 2015 at 2:30 am

You are right. As they are reading 1 Samuel now!
(1 Samuel 15:33) . . .Samuel hacked Aʹgag to pieces before Jehovah at Gilʹgal.
Reply
 
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 23, 2015 at 1:22 pm

The Witlesses spend so much time, energy and money following teachings that have repeatedly been proven wrong, studying the same material over and over again (much of which is totally irrelevant, i.e. ancient Hebrew customs and traditions), going to multiple meetings per week, singing hideous hymns, running up and down the streets like headless chickens, condemning to a horrible anyone who disagrees with them, ostracizing anyone who disagrees with them, including close family members and friends, denying cases of child abuse and harboring the abusers, rejecting life-saving medical procedures even for their children, condemning “worldly” governments yet taking advantage of their physical protection, legal and constitutional protection, and tax breaks, contributing copious amounts of money so their Glorious Leaders (whom they follow like gods) can build a Real Estate Empire and pay off costly lawsuits incurred by the aforementioned abuses of children, and condemn education.
 Who’s REALLY “obsessed”???
Who’s REALLY “mentally diseased”???
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 23, 2015 at 2:23 pm

The astounding thing about most religious people is that they believe they can win “salvation” by studying some “holy” book, singing a few songs, following a very particular set of rules and reg’s, and, in the case of JWs, running around the streets like chickens, to spread their “message”. Either that, or the “New Age” “spirituality”: Wearing some religious symbol around one’s neck (I see crosses everywhere, and NONE of these people are Christian), sporting some “tribal” tattoo, or going around saying, “I’m a very spiritual person” (whatever the hell that means). Which religion or “spiritual belief” teaches things like humanity, compassion, honor, loyalty, basic human decency, ethics, responsibility, maturity, REALITY, discipline, even logical thinking and analysis? Which religion or “spiritual belief” teaches people how to be human beings?
 Religion is a Big Factory that mass-produces Robots.
 And New Age “spirituality” nonsense is just a system that sociopaths use to feel good about themselves.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 23, 2015 at 11:56 pm

Neal – I’ve just had to spend some of my time deleting yet another flurry of silly, off-topic remarks from you, seemingly attempted as humor. I seem to recall already warning you about this breach of the posting guidelines. I’m afraid if you continue to ignore me in this regard I will have no choice but to revoke your ability to comment. At the very least, please save all the drivel for one easily-deletable comment rather than stretching it into a plethora of one-liner silliness across the site.
Reply
 
 

 Excelsior! says:

 March 23, 2015 at 4:30 pm

Neal Krouni,
Your compassion and fellow feeling are so lacking that I suspect that it is you who is sociopathic!
You abuse scientists, religious people and anyone else that does not fit into your nebulous world view!
Lest you forget, YOU were a Jehovah’s Witness at one time, weren’t you? You believed all the nonsense, didn’t you?
How was your belief in nonsense any different from the lady with the cross tattooes?
Believe it or not, Neal Krouni, that lady is just as much a human being as you! How dare you be so disgustingly rude and offensive to someone you obviously feel you are superior to!!!
You are not superior to her or to anyone.
How about having a bit more compassion for people, Neal? There are many unfortunate people who don’t know what you know. They are ignorant, not inferior or unimportant.
I judge people by the content of their character, not what job they do or faith they follow.
I’m glad that you are free from the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I’m sorry that you family have been weaponised against you. However, constantly belittling other people is no way to behave. It will win you no respect or friends.
You have a lot to offer. You are obviously an intelligent person. Go and use your skills to benefit yourself and others.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 

 Wally says:

 March 23, 2015 at 6:26 pm

I have always come to this site for sensible information regarding the distorted teachings of JWs.
 I am taking a course on research methods now, and the information presented in this article seems to be borderline sensationalistic.
 Mental health issues affect all sorts of people regardless their religion. Would Mr. White have gotten this kind of media attention had he belonged to any other religion?
 I would hate to see this site steering away from all the sensible and insightful postings that Lloyd has written so far. I do not bother to read any other sites on JWs because they seem to lack the reasonableness I usually find here. In my opinion, former JW “activists” can easily go from one extreme (blind loyalty to Watchtower) to the other (fallacious opposition) on their journey away from indoctrination. I am just trying to put myself in the shoes of someone that is fading and is looking for objective evidence that Jehovah Witnesses do not have the truth. It takes a lot of personal growth, research and self-contemplation to find out that you have been spiritually and psychologically mislead for so many years!
 By the way, I am looking forward to reading Lloyd’s book when it gets published. It will certainly be the best book after Crisis of Conscience by Raymond Franz.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 24, 2015 at 11:19 am

Wally, can you point to anything in Sussanah’s article that hasn’t already been reported by the media? I don’t think you will be able to. That being said, by calling this article “sensationalistic” why are you holding JWsurvey to higher standards than ABC and NBC, or have you similarly written to those organizations to protest their coverage of this story? If you are to throw unfair criticism at this website, I do hope you’re at least consistent by similarly registering your disapproval with the big boys. And if all else fails – hey, at least you can always set up your own “non-sensationalist” blog site. Heaven knows this site and JehovahsWitnessReporter.com need the competition.
Reply
 
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 23, 2015 at 9:33 pm

@ Excelsior!
First of all, Mr. “Excelsior”, you know NOTHING about me, so stop scolding me like you’re my Dad. I get enough bulls**t from my psychotic family, Thank you very much. Secondly, I NEVER said OR implied that I was superior to anyone. And lastly, I WISH I had had access to the kind of cold, compassionless comments that I put out on this site, when I was much younger!!! It would have WOKEN ME UP a LOT SOONER!!!
 P.S.: You’re lucky this website has rules. If you would like to engage in a more open and unrestricted dialogue, I’ll be happy to provide you with my email address.
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 23, 2015 at 9:54 pm

Jesus said “love your enemies”, “turn the other cheek”, and forgive “77 times”. I wonder if the Department of Homeland Security would be willing to let 77 terrorist attacks go unpunished. ;)
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 23, 2015 at 10:04 pm

This incident only proves that Islamic terrorists are no crazier than Jehovah’s Witnesses. It’s only their methods that differ – except in this case (taking into account that the poor guy WAS suffering from psychological problems, which were possibly exacerbated by his association with WT). Another cold, compassionless comment for you to brood over, Excelsior. Some people talk the Talk. Others walk the Walk. Stay off my back bit*h. Lots of people are reading this, and I can have you kicked off this website for personal abuse. I’ve had it with wimps like you. Grow up or get lost.
Reply
 
 Pickled brain says:

 March 23, 2015 at 11:18 pm

@wally. Enjoyed your comments BUT I think it is important to highlight this Sadly Delusional man is a JW because the JW Organisation Has Many,Many Mentally Damaged People in it . I know of at least 30 out of 120 in my congregation are on some Anti Depressant or Herbal Remedy to treat M.E. Fibromyalgia,Chronic Fatigue, etc I have seen many some of my friends who have committed suicide because of Mental a Problems! There is higher rate of Mental & Emotional Instability amongst JWs than in the General Population. Perhaps you could include that in your Research!
Reply
 
 

 FEELINGSICKTOMYSTOMACH says:

 March 24, 2015 at 3:44 am

Neal Krouni
My family are still in the org. They are good people. They are not mentaly deseased, or obsessed, they are just not awake yet. One thing I Always keep in mind before running people in the org down, is that once upon a time, that was me. (And you)
Reply
 

 FEELINGSICKTOMYSTOMACH says:

 March 24, 2015 at 4:00 am

When ever I read articles like this one, it leads me to wonder, where was the ‘Holy Spirit’. Why was the holy spirit not helping this man, or thousands like him. If the holy spirit is so powerful, why are so many truly dedicated people suffering with mental health. I remember going home from so many meetings feeling flat. When I mentioned this to an elder, I was told it was because I was not allowing the holy spirit to work. It was MY fault. I don’t get it. I really don’t.
Not sure if this is classed as off topic, so apologies if it is.
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 24, 2015 at 9:49 am

@ FEELINGSICKTOMYSTOMACH
Thanks for the great life advice. I’m sure your family ARE good people, because you obviously have not been through the HELL I have. Also, I think we’ve all been bullied for our “beliefs”, like in high school, e.g. for that not-standing-for-the-national-anthem crap. I was even threatened with being beaten up by some jerk. We ALL took our lumps. The things I say on this site are NOTHING compared to that. And at least I have a sense of humor about it! I don’t know about you, but I WAS obsessed. I WAS mentally diseased. I don’t know how anyone could not be, being subjected to that mind-control day after day, week after week, year after year. I don’t know which JW world you’re from. Maybe everyone’s experience is different. But frankly, if attending 5 meetings a week, studying the same material over and over again endlessly, and running up and down the streets like a chicken, all of which I FREELY ADMIT to have done, does not qualify as obsession to you, please tell me what does. My life advice to you is: Grow a pair and don’t be a JW apologist.
Reply
 
 FEELINGSICKTOMYSTOMACH says:

 March 24, 2015 at 11:18 am

Neal Krouni read my post again. I get fed up of people running down ones who are still in the org. These ones have not woken up. The reason I do not run them down is because I was one of them. How am I an apologist. You are very angry, and I understand that, but just step back a bit and see how rude you are to people. You have no idea who I am, you no nothing about my time in the org. But you still assume much about me. If you read my post again, I am simply saying, there are good people in the org who need to wake up, but I dont see how a tirade of abuse against them personaly will help.
Reply
 
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 24, 2015 at 10:17 am

@ Cedars
I hope your experience with JW.BORG has not robbed you of your sense of humor. After all, laughter IS the best medicine, and a great morale booster! It’s kept me sane for all these years (sort of)! If we lose that, we lose everything. As for being banned, well I’ll take that risk, because that’s how I operate. I have First Amendment Rights too. No one can stop me from laughing. People get paid millions for that kind of “drivel”, and you’re getting it for free. I’ve worked in Show Business, so trust me, this is not amateur stuff. I appreciate the opportunity you have given me to express my opinions, etc on this site, but if you think I NEED to come here, you’re mistaken. Cheers.
Live long and prosper
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 24, 2015 at 10:28 am

This isn’t about first amendment rights, which you can use to set up your own website if you wish. This is about my right to keep this website free of your garble and clutter. The fact that I should have to explain that doesn’t speak volumes for your intellectual capacity I’m afraid. Not that I would want to offend a drivel artist of your caliber.
Reply
 
 Neal Krouni says:

 March 24, 2015 at 10:40 am

People who need to resort to insults betray their own lack of “intellectual capacity”.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 24, 2015 at 11:29 am

It wasn’t an insult, it was an observation. Are you done? Or do you absolutely refuse to observe the posting guidelines, which are applicable to all – ordinary person and nonsense artiste alike?
Reply
 
 
 
 

 Charles Costante says:

 March 24, 2015 at 9:04 pm

“That’s OK, no offense taken. Else, I could take my machete and come over to have a little chat …”
Criticus, will it be you or the machete doing the chatting?
I would like to say in my defence (before you go to the trouble of traveling land and sea to come visit me in Australia) that it was the tight pants I was wearing when I wrote that post that made me misspell your name – it gives me temporary dyslexia!
Reply
 

 Excelsior! says:

 March 25, 2015 at 6:10 am

Neal Krouni,
Sir, I have absolutely no desire to converse with you via email.
I do know something about you. I can read your numerous comments!
I can assure you, sir, that I do indeed walk the walk. I have helped instigate an investigation of the WTBTS by the Charity Commission, and other activism that, I hope, has been of help in freeing people from the cult of the WTBTS.
I am not a wimp, or a female dog.
You have a great deal of justifiable anger over the way you have been treated. I have sympathy for you.
My critiques of your comments have been motivated by my desire to help you hone your point of view. You have been writing comments that appear to contradict themselves.
What a pity it is that you have finally responded with verbal abuse, instead of replying to the points I have raised.
I wish you well, sir, in your journey out of Watchtower. I hope that, in time, your relationship with your still indoctrinated family will improve.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 

 Excelsior! says:

 March 25, 2015 at 11:02 am

Folks,
I wonder if “JEHOVAH God’s spirit-directed Organisation” will make a statement about this tragic affair?
The WTBTS will throw anyone under the bus if it helps them make another dollar of profit, so if there is one, it will be to distance themselves from this incident.
If I were an investor in the WTBTS, I would be thinking of cutting and running now. The world is being bombarded with negative case after negative case. They are coming so fast that I can’t keep up with them!
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 

 Excelsior! says:

 March 25, 2015 at 11:14 am

Neal Krouni,
As an example of your contradictory comments:
“Stay off my back, bit*h”
“I’ve had it with wimps like you”
Then we get the pithy reply to Lloyd:
“People who resort to insults betray their own lack of “intellectual capacity””
So, by your own reasoning, by insulting me you have betrayed your own lack of intellectual capacity!!
Do you see what I mean about contradictory comments now?
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 

 Honesty says:

 March 27, 2015 at 6:50 am

Well actually, just because Richard white attended the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah’s Witness, doesn’t make him be one! There are serious drastic measures and steps to go thru order to actually become a TRUE JEHOVAHS WITNESS! and since that particular man was NOT one, as he was trying to turn his life around but failed, doesn’t say anything realistic about the True Religion of Jehovah God! So with that being said, is another reason why Richard white did NOT KILL NO ONE! As he could have if he wanted to, before he was killed. So instead, he used bug spray, rather than bullets! So now you know the real facts! And if you don’t allow this post to be presented, then I understand your envious hypocrisy! And the truth will always prevail no matter what! Ha, haa, haa…
Reply
 

 Excelsior! says:

 March 27, 2015 at 7:10 am

Honesty,
So you have thrown this unfortunate man under the bus.
You quibble over his status in the congregation, as if that has any bearing on this tragic case. He was cognisant of the theology of your religion, and he was associated with Jehovah’s Witnesses at the very least.
This association, whatever form it took, had no benefit for him, did it?
Your argument that he did not kill anyone is muted by the fact that you have used a double negative. You state that he did kill someone. I would suggest that you read through your comments for spelling and grammar.
I am in no way envious of the WTBTS. Its child protection policies, domestic violence policies, blood policies and shunning policies mark it as a cult. I am not envious of a cult.
I agree that the truth will prevail. The truth about the WTBTS is indeed being revealed. The world is learning just how vile your religion truly is.
I urge you to research the real facts about the WTBTS. There is no excuse for ignorance. All the information you need is freely available.
How revealing your comment is. You have thrown a veteran under the bus, in a feeble attempt to protect the image of your religion.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 
 Pickled brain says:

 March 27, 2015 at 11:32 am

@Honesty ! HONESTLY My Dear HONESTY you do need to go to University to improve your Grammar& Vocabulary!! Then once you can read & write properly & do PROPER RESEARCH on the Early History of JW by Reading Studies in the Scriptures & Especially The Finished Mystery written in 1917 when apparently was the Food at the Proper time when JESUS CHOSE the JWs over all other Religions in 1919??? In Your OWN WORDS.., HAA ,HA,HAA!!!!!
Reply
 
 

 Tiger123 says:

 April 5, 2015 at 2:54 am

I hope the family will find a way to get peace.
Reply
 

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← Gregorio Smith gives JWsurvey readers exclusive offer as he takes “Truth Be Told” on European Tour
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Jehovah’s Witness New Orleans airport machete attacker dies
Posted on March 23, 2015

Richard White pictured shortly after the incident
Richard White pictured shortly after the incident

Richard White, 63, a Jehovah’s Witness, has been identified by authorities as the man who wielded a machete on Friday night (March 20, 2015) at Louis Armstrong, New Orleans International Airport.
Also armed with insect spray during the attack, White charged past Transportation Safety Administration agents in Concourse B, spraying insecticide into their eyes and brandishing a machete just before 8 pm local time.
TSA Officer, JPSO Lt. Heather Slyve, who was stationed at the security checkpoint, opened fire, apparently striking White three times but also shooting a female TSA agent in the arm and grazing a male traveler.
Jefferson Parish Sheriff Newell Normand told reporters White was a taxi driver and recently received a chauffeur’s license. He had a minimal criminal history — “some ‘disturbing the peace’ charges and a couple of traffic attachments.”
A former neighbor, Donna Jackson, told The Times Picayune that White “was a deeply religious man,” describing him as “a Jehovah’s Witness who shunned Western medicine.” White apparently encouraged her to use herbal remedies to treat her diabetes.
Jackson said the Whites attend the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah’s Witnesses near the airport at 301 Veterans Memorial Blvd in Kenner.


After the incident White was transported to the hospital and refused “certain types of medical care” according to Sheriff Newell Normand. He died at 4.02pm local time on Saturday March 21st, 2015.
The Sheriff confirmed that, during the attack, White dropped a lighter and a bag of six glass Mason jars with cloth wicks soaked in gasoline.
Smoke bombs and tanks of highly-flammable acetylene, refrigeration gas Freon and oxygen were discovered in the trunk of his car, the Sheriff said.
His motives and reasons for being at the airport are unknown. His family are said to be co-operating with law enforcement and have indicated that White was known to experience mental health issues.

susannah-signature






Further reading…
◾NBC: Suspect in Machete Attack at New Orleans Airport Has Died
◾NBC: Authorities Try to Determine New Orleans Airport Machete Attacker’s Motive
◾ABC: Authorities Search for Motive in Machete-Wielding Airport Attack
◾Breitbart: Louisiana Airport Attacker Was Jehovah’s Witness, Had Molotov Cocktails
◾Jehovah’s Witness Reporter article


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66 Responses to Jehovah’s Witness New Orleans airport machete attacker dies

 Sherri says:

 March 23, 2015 at 4:54 am

I wonder how long it will take before the Society issues a statement saying that this particular person was not a member in good standing in his congregation. A tragic case.
Reply
 

 chatpal says:

 March 23, 2015 at 5:02 am

how much can we bet he was on some sort of antidepressants?
Reply
 
 Mary says:

 March 25, 2015 at 11:51 am

Actually, the poor buggar probably wasn’t on medication at all. I think the article said he ‘shunned all Western medicine’. And unfortunately, this was the end result.
Reply
 
 

 Gareth says:

 March 23, 2015 at 5:15 am

Wow! An agent shooting in a hall full of people, what are they thinking?!? Have they had training?! Is this supposed to be safety? Using teamwork to take control of a situation? It’s pathetic!
Reply
 

 Gareth says:

 March 23, 2015 at 5:18 am

Due to using such extreme force, this guy can’t be put to justice, and we will perhaps never discover his motivation…
Reply
 
 JBob says:

 March 23, 2015 at 3:03 pm

Gareth, you missed a point, it wasn’t extreme force, it was subduing force. If the machete wielder had taken the Western medical treatments (strong implication that no blood was used), the probability increased of surviving the wound and not bleeding out on the operating table.
There but for the grace of God goes “tight pants”…
Reply
 
 Gareth says:

 March 24, 2015 at 3:12 am

Hi JBob. I would have believed it to be subduing force if it were one shot in the leg. In this case it was three shots; chest, leg, and face. Reports are that White was at first spraying, then took his machete, an officer hit him with luggage; so some time passed in which agents could execute their trained response action. Shooting someone three times is evidence of a fear reaction to me, not a well reasoned response.
Reply
 

 Criticus says:

 March 24, 2015 at 2:49 pm

That’s exactly what I thought. Probably a case of “tight pants”. As many people are known to think “down there”, the tight pants must have cut off blood flow from his brain, which had a negative impact on his clear thinking faculties. So: Tony III is right – RIGHT? Tight pants are baaaaad 4 u.
Reply
 
 
 

 Ron says:

 March 23, 2015 at 5:21 am

When the control of a cult enforces all that it does on each ones life, its no surprise that anyone with mental health problems had then worsened.
Reply
 

 kat says:

 March 23, 2015 at 5:42 am

Being in the military then becoming a JW didn’t help did it, poor man. so very sad pleased no one else was fatally injured, hope some more comes out about this man’s life. Who knows what medication he was on and what triggered this terrible freak out.
Reply
 
 Criticus says:

 March 24, 2015 at 2:53 pm

What triggered this terrible freak out? Simple: He was probably mixing up “wielding the sword of the spirit” with “swinging the machete of the evil spirits”. His pants were just too tight …
Reply
 
 Criticus says:

 March 24, 2015 at 2:57 pm

BTW: The greek word for “sword” (like in Eph 6,17) is “máchaira”, from which our modern “machete” is derived. Soooo … it all makes sense now.
Reply
 

 Charles Costante says:

 March 24, 2015 at 3:06 pm

It’s a pity he wasn’t wearing the ‘breastplate of righteousness’, Citricus. It might have saved his life!
Reply
 
 Criticus says:

 March 24, 2015 at 3:14 pm

Sure, if it would have been bulletproof – along with the “helmet of salvation” to keep the lead away from his think bulb – nah, that wouldn’t have been necessary, as his brain was elsewhere (further down, in the “tight pants”-region. And I like the “Citricus”, that’s funny.)
Reply
 

 Charles Costante says:

 March 24, 2015 at 3:15 pm

I’m sorry, Criticus. I just realized I spelled your name incorrectly.
Reply
 
 Criticus says:

 March 24, 2015 at 3:19 pm

That’s OK, no offense taken. Else, I could take my machete and come over to have a little chat …

 
 
 
 
 

 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 March 23, 2015 at 6:01 am

*** yb12 p. 229 Rwanda ***
 The Kingdom Hall was used as a hospital
It was a Cholera Outbreak. Kingdom Halls should be used as hospitals not only for Cholera Outbreaks, but also for Mental Health problems in JWs! Most of them are Masochistic others suffer different types of mental illnesses.
Consider the following from JWs publications, do you think JWs are different?
*** g93 4/8 p. 28 Watching the World ***
 Teenage Satanism
 Satanism is gaining ground in schools in Johannesburg, South Africa. According to the newspaper The Star, one psychologist says she has treated a number of students affected by Satanism. Patients spoke of suburban covens that took drugs and practiced sex and sadomasochistic orgies. Contrary to stereotypes, she says, “these children look perfectly respectable.” A police officer told The Star that police are aware of satanic groups throughout the country. Satanism is not illegal, but the police follow up on crimes related to satanic rituals. They recently arrested a teenage girl and her boyfriend for the murder of a 38-year-old woman. Both were involved with Satanism, and they told the police that they committed the murder under demonic influence.
Reply
 

 John Threadgold says:

 March 23, 2015 at 6:19 am

This is so sad on so many levels. The Man who did this, was obviously in a great deal of distress. The fact that he was shot dead by the Police. I live in England where the police are not generally armed. I feel appalled that a mentally Ill man was shot dead like this. And who knows his life history, to say what role the Watchtower had in this ? Some one else said he was ex army, and if true he could have experienced trauma that remained unresolved and acted out in this incident.
Reply
 
 Big D says:

 March 23, 2015 at 10:21 am

So…I guess when some is running after you, waving a machete, with explosives at the ready, we should just politely ask them to drop their weapon. Maybe wrestle them to the ground, if you can do so without getting your hands chopped off. You don’t sound too bright.
Reply
 
 GEM says:

 March 23, 2015 at 11:33 am

Ever heard of a TASER, Big D.
I think I am safe in saying that most Brits. are left speechless at American gun law.
This man appears to have served his country, which turned him into a Killing machine to uphold American Foreign policy. God only knows what trauma the poor man faced…so he finds God for a while, which gives him some relief from his Angst… and then the poor git flipps….sorry Big D..
They may have had to take him down for the safety of others…but they didn’t need to take him out!
Reply
 
 Big D says:

 March 23, 2015 at 12:50 pm

Tasers are mostly single round devices..a few can carry three rounds. The taser barb is ineffective if the attacker is wearing thick clothing or body armor–just ask the police in Copenhagen, or in Paris, at the site of the Charlie Hebdo attacks.
Also, reports seem to indicate that he died after arriving at the hospital and refusing an emergency blood transfusion.
Reply
 
 Big D says:

 March 23, 2015 at 1:01 pm

Oh, and I’m not fond of US gun laws and how they allow such easy access to untrained civilians. I also agree that our foreign policy is misguided. I just don’t see what this has to do with a trained police officer TAKING DOWN a machete wielding attacker bent on destruction. I supposed the lady officer should have asked: “have you taken your meds today, sir?” before acting.

 
 
 
 
 

 anonymous says:

 March 23, 2015 at 6:53 am

It seems he was trying to blow the place up and killing an awful lot of people and it seems that in the hospital they tried to save him but I bet he refused blood since he’s a witness. It is very sad. I think he might have been on anti-psychotic medication which a lot of times makes people imagine things that aren’t there.
Reply
 

 Excelsior! says:

 March 23, 2015 at 7:14 am

Folks,
What a sad situation. Rest in peace, Mr White.
I am relieved that he did not cause any fatalities.
We shall never know what triggered his attack, but being a JW did not help him.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 

 John Baptist says:

 March 23, 2015 at 9:24 am

This could have and does happen with individuals in any religion. Where it goes terribly wrong for those who are devoted or associated with the Jehovah’s Witness’s is that their Governing Body through their printed page and advice from inexperienced elders look down on seeking outside professional help from educated “Worldly” Professionals. It was stated that he had mental issues that obviously from his actions were not treated in a Professional way or his religion only compounded the problem.
Reply
 

 Mama Joy says:

 March 23, 2015 at 9:54 am

I wonder what is being said at his local Kingdom Hall about the end times and airport security, terrorism, etc,??
Reply
 

 Mama Joy says:

 March 23, 2015 at 9:59 am

Was he about to be disfellowshipped and lost it?
A Jehovah’s Witness doesn’t do anything without the Watchtower controlling their actions, thoughts, etc,.
What message was being heard in his Kingdom Hall?
Reply
 
 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 March 24, 2015 at 2:19 am

@Mama Joy, according to their Theocratic Ministry School Schedule for 2015, they are reading 1 Samuel.
(1 Samuel 15:3) . . .You must not spare them; you are to put them to death, man as well as woman, child as well as infant, bull as well as sheep, camel as well as donkey.’”
Reply
 
 

 Jakemon75 says:

 March 23, 2015 at 11:11 am

Organizational statement.
“Jehovah’s Witnesses abhor hacking travelers with a machette and strive to protect travelers from such acts.”
Reply
 

 Rowland Nelken says:

 March 23, 2015 at 11:28 am

Has there been any research on the percentages of the mentally unstable who are attracted to JWdom in the first place? That is quite apart from any mental problems and distress caused by living on a diet of JW poison.
We hear of newsworthy monsters like Rosemary West, the Yorkshire Ripper and that sadistic foster mum from Gloucestershire, recently released from Jail.
Does the Watchtower attract, indeed find easy prey amongst the inadequate, more than other evangelising religious groups?
Tightpants Tony seems clearly to have been damaged by his pre JW Vietnam experience.
I presume that a case like the one here, even if it leaves the front pages, will continue to be news, and we may discover more about what led to the guy’s apparently murderous plans, and whether the JW connection could have been a cause of his problems, a symptom, neither or both.
Any studies, if there have been any, on the psycho state of JW recruits, would be interesting.
Reply
 
 Big D says:

 March 23, 2015 at 1:31 pm

If someone has a preexisting condition BEFORE becoming a JW, just seems like a disaster waiting to happen. Like pouring gasoline on a fire.
Take our service vets for example. Many of them find support from other vets, such as those from the Vietnam era. Others find professional counseling through the VA or other organizations. It ain’t perfect, but every little bit helps. Now, imagine becoming a JW and being told that your veteran buddies, with shared experiences are now ‘bad associations.’ Also, your ‘worldly’ therapists are not worth seeing.
It’s like pouring gasoline on a fire, so it seems.
Reply
 
 

 Jakemon75 says:

 March 23, 2015 at 12:03 pm

Something tells me that no one at his local hall is surprised in the least.
I could rattle off the names of 4-5 oddballs who were in and out of congregational trouble in my 33 years there.
I’m certain anyone can think back and remember someone in the cult that was a little “off”, a “loner”. Someone who always gave you the creeps. Someone where news like this would not surprise you.
Reply
 
 Linda says:

 March 23, 2015 at 7:49 pm

So true, my congregation was full of some of the strangest people you could ever meet.
Reply
 
 

 sirius says:

 March 23, 2015 at 12:29 pm

Soooo, 1984 version of the progressive NWT calls apostates as “mentally diseased” while the newer 2013 are just labeled as “obsessed”.
Reply
 

 Pickled brain says:

 March 23, 2015 at 12:41 pm

@Jakemon75. I think your comment was BRILLIANT & had me Rolling about the floor laughing my head off!! The Governing Body ABHORS Child Abuse& ABHORS Hacking Travellers at Airports with MACHETES!!!
Reply
 
 Pickled brain says:

 March 23, 2015 at 12:50 pm

The Governing Body ABHOR Religions that make False Prophecies& ABHOR Birthdays as they Glorify and give undue attention to an individual BUT not Wedding Anniversaries as they ONLY Glorify TWO People ???? JEHOVAH Witnesses ABHOR Blood Transfusions as Blood should be poured out onto the ground BUT Blood Fractions which come from Worldly people who Don’t pour their blood onto the ground we can use their blood to get blood fractions from to save our life!!
 Thank JEHOVAH for Worldly people’s Blood!!
Reply
 
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 23, 2015 at 12:52 pm

“Jehovah’s Happy People”
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 23, 2015 at 12:57 pm

Apparently this man was in the military at one time. Wonder if he was a Vietnam Vet. Age is about right.
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 23, 2015 at 1:02 pm

If people don’t have psychological problems before joining WT, they soon will.
Reply
 
 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 March 24, 2015 at 2:30 am

You are right. As they are reading 1 Samuel now!
(1 Samuel 15:33) . . .Samuel hacked Aʹgag to pieces before Jehovah at Gilʹgal.
Reply
 
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 23, 2015 at 1:22 pm

The Witlesses spend so much time, energy and money following teachings that have repeatedly been proven wrong, studying the same material over and over again (much of which is totally irrelevant, i.e. ancient Hebrew customs and traditions), going to multiple meetings per week, singing hideous hymns, running up and down the streets like headless chickens, condemning to a horrible anyone who disagrees with them, ostracizing anyone who disagrees with them, including close family members and friends, denying cases of child abuse and harboring the abusers, rejecting life-saving medical procedures even for their children, condemning “worldly” governments yet taking advantage of their physical protection, legal and constitutional protection, and tax breaks, contributing copious amounts of money so their Glorious Leaders (whom they follow like gods) can build a Real Estate Empire and pay off costly lawsuits incurred by the aforementioned abuses of children, and condemn education.
 Who’s REALLY “obsessed”???
Who’s REALLY “mentally diseased”???
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 23, 2015 at 2:23 pm

The astounding thing about most religious people is that they believe they can win “salvation” by studying some “holy” book, singing a few songs, following a very particular set of rules and reg’s, and, in the case of JWs, running around the streets like chickens, to spread their “message”. Either that, or the “New Age” “spirituality”: Wearing some religious symbol around one’s neck (I see crosses everywhere, and NONE of these people are Christian), sporting some “tribal” tattoo, or going around saying, “I’m a very spiritual person” (whatever the hell that means). Which religion or “spiritual belief” teaches things like humanity, compassion, honor, loyalty, basic human decency, ethics, responsibility, maturity, REALITY, discipline, even logical thinking and analysis? Which religion or “spiritual belief” teaches people how to be human beings?
 Religion is a Big Factory that mass-produces Robots.
 And New Age “spirituality” nonsense is just a system that sociopaths use to feel good about themselves.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 23, 2015 at 11:56 pm

Neal – I’ve just had to spend some of my time deleting yet another flurry of silly, off-topic remarks from you, seemingly attempted as humor. I seem to recall already warning you about this breach of the posting guidelines. I’m afraid if you continue to ignore me in this regard I will have no choice but to revoke your ability to comment. At the very least, please save all the drivel for one easily-deletable comment rather than stretching it into a plethora of one-liner silliness across the site.
Reply
 
 

 Excelsior! says:

 March 23, 2015 at 4:30 pm

Neal Krouni,
Your compassion and fellow feeling are so lacking that I suspect that it is you who is sociopathic!
You abuse scientists, religious people and anyone else that does not fit into your nebulous world view!
Lest you forget, YOU were a Jehovah’s Witness at one time, weren’t you? You believed all the nonsense, didn’t you?
How was your belief in nonsense any different from the lady with the cross tattooes?
Believe it or not, Neal Krouni, that lady is just as much a human being as you! How dare you be so disgustingly rude and offensive to someone you obviously feel you are superior to!!!
You are not superior to her or to anyone.
How about having a bit more compassion for people, Neal? There are many unfortunate people who don’t know what you know. They are ignorant, not inferior or unimportant.
I judge people by the content of their character, not what job they do or faith they follow.
I’m glad that you are free from the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I’m sorry that you family have been weaponised against you. However, constantly belittling other people is no way to behave. It will win you no respect or friends.
You have a lot to offer. You are obviously an intelligent person. Go and use your skills to benefit yourself and others.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 

 Wally says:

 March 23, 2015 at 6:26 pm

I have always come to this site for sensible information regarding the distorted teachings of JWs.
 I am taking a course on research methods now, and the information presented in this article seems to be borderline sensationalistic.
 Mental health issues affect all sorts of people regardless their religion. Would Mr. White have gotten this kind of media attention had he belonged to any other religion?
 I would hate to see this site steering away from all the sensible and insightful postings that Lloyd has written so far. I do not bother to read any other sites on JWs because they seem to lack the reasonableness I usually find here. In my opinion, former JW “activists” can easily go from one extreme (blind loyalty to Watchtower) to the other (fallacious opposition) on their journey away from indoctrination. I am just trying to put myself in the shoes of someone that is fading and is looking for objective evidence that Jehovah Witnesses do not have the truth. It takes a lot of personal growth, research and self-contemplation to find out that you have been spiritually and psychologically mislead for so many years!
 By the way, I am looking forward to reading Lloyd’s book when it gets published. It will certainly be the best book after Crisis of Conscience by Raymond Franz.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 24, 2015 at 11:19 am

Wally, can you point to anything in Sussanah’s article that hasn’t already been reported by the media? I don’t think you will be able to. That being said, by calling this article “sensationalistic” why are you holding JWsurvey to higher standards than ABC and NBC, or have you similarly written to those organizations to protest their coverage of this story? If you are to throw unfair criticism at this website, I do hope you’re at least consistent by similarly registering your disapproval with the big boys. And if all else fails – hey, at least you can always set up your own “non-sensationalist” blog site. Heaven knows this site and JehovahsWitnessReporter.com need the competition.
Reply
 
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 23, 2015 at 9:33 pm

@ Excelsior!
First of all, Mr. “Excelsior”, you know NOTHING about me, so stop scolding me like you’re my Dad. I get enough bulls**t from my psychotic family, Thank you very much. Secondly, I NEVER said OR implied that I was superior to anyone. And lastly, I WISH I had had access to the kind of cold, compassionless comments that I put out on this site, when I was much younger!!! It would have WOKEN ME UP a LOT SOONER!!!
 P.S.: You’re lucky this website has rules. If you would like to engage in a more open and unrestricted dialogue, I’ll be happy to provide you with my email address.
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 23, 2015 at 9:54 pm

Jesus said “love your enemies”, “turn the other cheek”, and forgive “77 times”. I wonder if the Department of Homeland Security would be willing to let 77 terrorist attacks go unpunished. ;)
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 23, 2015 at 10:04 pm

This incident only proves that Islamic terrorists are no crazier than Jehovah’s Witnesses. It’s only their methods that differ – except in this case (taking into account that the poor guy WAS suffering from psychological problems, which were possibly exacerbated by his association with WT). Another cold, compassionless comment for you to brood over, Excelsior. Some people talk the Talk. Others walk the Walk. Stay off my back bit*h. Lots of people are reading this, and I can have you kicked off this website for personal abuse. I’ve had it with wimps like you. Grow up or get lost.
Reply
 
 Pickled brain says:

 March 23, 2015 at 11:18 pm

@wally. Enjoyed your comments BUT I think it is important to highlight this Sadly Delusional man is a JW because the JW Organisation Has Many,Many Mentally Damaged People in it . I know of at least 30 out of 120 in my congregation are on some Anti Depressant or Herbal Remedy to treat M.E. Fibromyalgia,Chronic Fatigue, etc I have seen many some of my friends who have committed suicide because of Mental a Problems! There is higher rate of Mental & Emotional Instability amongst JWs than in the General Population. Perhaps you could include that in your Research!
Reply
 
 

 FEELINGSICKTOMYSTOMACH says:

 March 24, 2015 at 3:44 am

Neal Krouni
My family are still in the org. They are good people. They are not mentaly deseased, or obsessed, they are just not awake yet. One thing I Always keep in mind before running people in the org down, is that once upon a time, that was me. (And you)
Reply
 

 FEELINGSICKTOMYSTOMACH says:

 March 24, 2015 at 4:00 am

When ever I read articles like this one, it leads me to wonder, where was the ‘Holy Spirit’. Why was the holy spirit not helping this man, or thousands like him. If the holy spirit is so powerful, why are so many truly dedicated people suffering with mental health. I remember going home from so many meetings feeling flat. When I mentioned this to an elder, I was told it was because I was not allowing the holy spirit to work. It was MY fault. I don’t get it. I really don’t.
Not sure if this is classed as off topic, so apologies if it is.
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 24, 2015 at 9:49 am

@ FEELINGSICKTOMYSTOMACH
Thanks for the great life advice. I’m sure your family ARE good people, because you obviously have not been through the HELL I have. Also, I think we’ve all been bullied for our “beliefs”, like in high school, e.g. for that not-standing-for-the-national-anthem crap. I was even threatened with being beaten up by some jerk. We ALL took our lumps. The things I say on this site are NOTHING compared to that. And at least I have a sense of humor about it! I don’t know about you, but I WAS obsessed. I WAS mentally diseased. I don’t know how anyone could not be, being subjected to that mind-control day after day, week after week, year after year. I don’t know which JW world you’re from. Maybe everyone’s experience is different. But frankly, if attending 5 meetings a week, studying the same material over and over again endlessly, and running up and down the streets like a chicken, all of which I FREELY ADMIT to have done, does not qualify as obsession to you, please tell me what does. My life advice to you is: Grow a pair and don’t be a JW apologist.
Reply
 
 FEELINGSICKTOMYSTOMACH says:

 March 24, 2015 at 11:18 am

Neal Krouni read my post again. I get fed up of people running down ones who are still in the org. These ones have not woken up. The reason I do not run them down is because I was one of them. How am I an apologist. You are very angry, and I understand that, but just step back a bit and see how rude you are to people. You have no idea who I am, you no nothing about my time in the org. But you still assume much about me. If you read my post again, I am simply saying, there are good people in the org who need to wake up, but I dont see how a tirade of abuse against them personaly will help.
Reply
 
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 24, 2015 at 10:17 am

@ Cedars
I hope your experience with JW.BORG has not robbed you of your sense of humor. After all, laughter IS the best medicine, and a great morale booster! It’s kept me sane for all these years (sort of)! If we lose that, we lose everything. As for being banned, well I’ll take that risk, because that’s how I operate. I have First Amendment Rights too. No one can stop me from laughing. People get paid millions for that kind of “drivel”, and you’re getting it for free. I’ve worked in Show Business, so trust me, this is not amateur stuff. I appreciate the opportunity you have given me to express my opinions, etc on this site, but if you think I NEED to come here, you’re mistaken. Cheers.
Live long and prosper
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 24, 2015 at 10:28 am

This isn’t about first amendment rights, which you can use to set up your own website if you wish. This is about my right to keep this website free of your garble and clutter. The fact that I should have to explain that doesn’t speak volumes for your intellectual capacity I’m afraid. Not that I would want to offend a drivel artist of your caliber.
Reply
 
 Neal Krouni says:

 March 24, 2015 at 10:40 am

People who need to resort to insults betray their own lack of “intellectual capacity”.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 24, 2015 at 11:29 am

It wasn’t an insult, it was an observation. Are you done? Or do you absolutely refuse to observe the posting guidelines, which are applicable to all – ordinary person and nonsense artiste alike?
Reply
 
 
 
 

 Charles Costante says:

 March 24, 2015 at 9:04 pm

“That’s OK, no offense taken. Else, I could take my machete and come over to have a little chat …”
Criticus, will it be you or the machete doing the chatting?
I would like to say in my defence (before you go to the trouble of traveling land and sea to come visit me in Australia) that it was the tight pants I was wearing when I wrote that post that made me misspell your name – it gives me temporary dyslexia!
Reply
 

 Excelsior! says:

 March 25, 2015 at 6:10 am

Neal Krouni,
Sir, I have absolutely no desire to converse with you via email.
I do know something about you. I can read your numerous comments!
I can assure you, sir, that I do indeed walk the walk. I have helped instigate an investigation of the WTBTS by the Charity Commission, and other activism that, I hope, has been of help in freeing people from the cult of the WTBTS.
I am not a wimp, or a female dog.
You have a great deal of justifiable anger over the way you have been treated. I have sympathy for you.
My critiques of your comments have been motivated by my desire to help you hone your point of view. You have been writing comments that appear to contradict themselves.
What a pity it is that you have finally responded with verbal abuse, instead of replying to the points I have raised.
I wish you well, sir, in your journey out of Watchtower. I hope that, in time, your relationship with your still indoctrinated family will improve.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 

 Excelsior! says:

 March 25, 2015 at 11:02 am

Folks,
I wonder if “JEHOVAH God’s spirit-directed Organisation” will make a statement about this tragic affair?
The WTBTS will throw anyone under the bus if it helps them make another dollar of profit, so if there is one, it will be to distance themselves from this incident.
If I were an investor in the WTBTS, I would be thinking of cutting and running now. The world is being bombarded with negative case after negative case. They are coming so fast that I can’t keep up with them!
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 

 Excelsior! says:

 March 25, 2015 at 11:14 am

Neal Krouni,
As an example of your contradictory comments:
“Stay off my back, bit*h”
“I’ve had it with wimps like you”
Then we get the pithy reply to Lloyd:
“People who resort to insults betray their own lack of “intellectual capacity””
So, by your own reasoning, by insulting me you have betrayed your own lack of intellectual capacity!!
Do you see what I mean about contradictory comments now?
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 

 Honesty says:

 March 27, 2015 at 6:50 am

Well actually, just because Richard white attended the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah’s Witness, doesn’t make him be one! There are serious drastic measures and steps to go thru order to actually become a TRUE JEHOVAHS WITNESS! and since that particular man was NOT one, as he was trying to turn his life around but failed, doesn’t say anything realistic about the True Religion of Jehovah God! So with that being said, is another reason why Richard white did NOT KILL NO ONE! As he could have if he wanted to, before he was killed. So instead, he used bug spray, rather than bullets! So now you know the real facts! And if you don’t allow this post to be presented, then I understand your envious hypocrisy! And the truth will always prevail no matter what! Ha, haa, haa…
Reply
 

 Excelsior! says:

 March 27, 2015 at 7:10 am

Honesty,
So you have thrown this unfortunate man under the bus.
You quibble over his status in the congregation, as if that has any bearing on this tragic case. He was cognisant of the theology of your religion, and he was associated with Jehovah’s Witnesses at the very least.
This association, whatever form it took, had no benefit for him, did it?
Your argument that he did not kill anyone is muted by the fact that you have used a double negative. You state that he did kill someone. I would suggest that you read through your comments for spelling and grammar.
I am in no way envious of the WTBTS. Its child protection policies, domestic violence policies, blood policies and shunning policies mark it as a cult. I am not envious of a cult.
I agree that the truth will prevail. The truth about the WTBTS is indeed being revealed. The world is learning just how vile your religion truly is.
I urge you to research the real facts about the WTBTS. There is no excuse for ignorance. All the information you need is freely available.
How revealing your comment is. You have thrown a veteran under the bus, in a feeble attempt to protect the image of your religion.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 
 Pickled brain says:

 March 27, 2015 at 11:32 am

@Honesty ! HONESTLY My Dear HONESTY you do need to go to University to improve your Grammar& Vocabulary!! Then once you can read & write properly & do PROPER RESEARCH on the Early History of JW by Reading Studies in the Scriptures & Especially The Finished Mystery written in 1917 when apparently was the Food at the Proper time when JESUS CHOSE the JWs over all other Religions in 1919??? In Your OWN WORDS.., HAA ,HA,HAA!!!!!
Reply
 
 

 Tiger123 says:

 April 5, 2015 at 2:54 am

I hope the family will find a way to get peace.
Reply
 

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← Governing Body’s David Splane says forcing young ones to get baptized is “wise” thing to do
New JW.org “store” opens in Rouen, France – but what is it selling? →

Breaking News: Paris Jackson Attempts Suicide
avatar
Posted on June 5, 2013

Paris Jackson, who has been raised in a Witness family, has reportedly been taken to hospital following a suicide attempt

News is emerging that Paris Jackson, daughter of the late Michael Jackson, has been rushed to hospital on June 5th following a suicide attempt.
Emergency services responded to a call at her home at 1.27am local time and claim to have taken a single person to a local medical center. Multiple sources are reporting this person to be Paris.
While it is impossible to say at this stage what has prompted this development, the online Witness community will be concerned given that little more than a month ago the celebrity gossip pages were reporting that Paris, who has been raised as a Jehovah’s Witness by her family, was refusing to go on the door-to-door ministry.
Her grandmother Katherine remains a staunch Jehovah’s Witnesses, having confirmed her faith on the Oprah Winfrey show in 2010 where she revealed that she had just returned from the ministry when she heard that her son Michael had been hospitalized. According to the Sky News website, Paris and her siblings continue to live with their grandmother following the singer’s death.
Below is a video, posted to YouTube a month ago, revealing the fact that Paris refused to take part in Witness field ministry…


According to TMZ.com, Paris reportedly “threw a fit” last night when she was told she couldn’t go to a Marilyn Manson concert. The same source reports that there are signs of cutting on Paris’ arms – indicating long-standing emotional problems.
Whatever the issues surrounding this disturbing news, whether this development is related to Paris’ religious upbringing or not, at the center of this story is a very troubled young woman who urgently needs the help, support and understanding of those around her – including trained mental health professionals.
On behalf of all those involved with JWsurvey.org, I express my deepest concern for Paris and my sincerest hope that she will have a quick and speedy recovery.







Further reading…
◾TMZ.com article on the story
◾SkyNews article on the story
◾Charisma News: Did Cultish Religion Move Paris Jackson to Attempt Suicide?
◾Recent instructions to Jehovah’s Witnesses regarding self harm
Related video…




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24 Responses to Breaking News: Paris Jackson Attempts Suicide

 Julia says:

 June 5, 2013 at 12:06 pm

I hope that Paris Jackson gets the professional help that she needs during this difficult time.
Thank you for sharing this information.
When teens are suicidal it is not a spiritual malady to be remedied through prayer, as the recent Awake! magazine tries to claim. These children need real help and attention from medical professionals!
Reply
 

 KtotheRAD "Konrad" says:

 June 5, 2013 at 1:02 pm

Even though I was hoping so hard that this wasn’t going to be the case, I anticipated something tragic along this line some time ago…Here you have a young lady floating around in a parental vaccuum and also under exponential pressure of worldwide public scrutiny and that tender age? With such a freakish family? Public speculation as to who her father even is? Now public charges of her father being a criminal again? Throw in the cult pressure element to confuse things with twisted life and death and abuse pressures that are non applicable and false, making a loving God look like an ogre rather than a friend? She already spoke of bullying and abuse at school when I had her on twitter so I was hoping against hope that nothing bad would transpire…
Reply
 

 Magusknight1974 says:

 June 5, 2013 at 3:24 pm

Nice Work. Great example of someone who chooses to not follow down the path they are given by their family. If she is hurting it is due to all the pressures around her and prayer as little impact in healing her woes. I believe once she finds her way through her problems she will be in a much better place. The cancer of forcing the youth to do what they are told is now manifesting itself with self mutilation and suicide. If Paris does read any of these comments then I tell you that your loved. We respect your choices as long as your happy but be careful not to be fooled by your family as they are manipulated by others too. Great Job Cedars, Save the Children is your mission of truth.
Reply
 

 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 June 5, 2013 at 10:49 pm

Her grandmother needs professional help first for a long lasting solution. She must be psychologically disturbed by the cult teachings. This cult has the capacity to penetrate and destroy your life through family members. They BELIEVE that they are “The First Woe—Locusts” “The Locust Plague Today” “a plague of locusts that attack those ‘who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.’ that “authority was given them, the same authority as the scorpions of the earth have.” (Revelation 9:2, 3) (Read Revelation Climax chapter 22)!!!
Reply
 

 Cedars says:

 June 6, 2013 at 11:46 am

JWsurvey’s own Richard E. Kelly has been quoted in Charisma News on this link: http://www.charismanews.com/us/39785-did-cultish-religion-move-paris-jackson-to-commit-suicide
“There is a high incidence of suicide attempts and cutting among JW children,” he says. “They’re told to go to all the meetings; they’re told Armageddon is coming; they’re told they need to go door-to-door to hand out materials. Kids with minds of their own develop problems with these demands and act out in various ways. Suicide attempts are not uncommon.”
Reply
 

 KtotheRAD "Konrad" says:

 June 6, 2013 at 12:04 pm

Way to go Richard!
Reply
 

 AnonE says:

 June 6, 2013 at 7:15 pm

Dat, dat, dat… My thoughts and prayers are with Paris and family in working through this, but isn’t this family built on being “independent” of following Mama Katherine’s wishes? and, specifically, the wishes of the elders? Paris is true to her father’s nature–a free-spirit with morals and ethics but unwilling to be confined to a box of conformity. Consider that for a celebrity (and Paris as a descendant of a superstar and having a paparazzi following qualifies) they would need to “tone-down” and “costume-up” to fulfill the door-to-door requirement to avoid attracting photographers and possibly harming the service group as they are trampled or run over. That is weird.
But, what really, really is ironic is that the origins–if we reach way, way, way back to the roots–of influence on Russell and the Watchtower publications, we find non-conformity and free-thinkers who refused to be confined to a box of conformity–a rebellion against standard Christian theology and forms of devotion.
I LOVE IT!!! A dose of their own medicine and a bitter pill to swallow!
Hang in there, Paris. TO borrow a phrase, “it gets better!”
Reply
 

 JBob says:

 June 8, 2013 at 2:10 pm

It’s often posited that a cult drives people to commit suicide. Naturally, any group disowns this infamy, but a group’s dynamics can create fertile grounds which accelerate an individual’s inclination toward suicidal tendencies. As we’ve seen from the “Letter to Elders” regarding India and the push for “exemplary JW families” and the constant measuring up to the “ideal Witness” model written in the Watchtower creates an atmosphere where perfectionism is rewarded and praised. To counter that Jehovah’s organization realizes we are all humans with imperfections due to Adam’s falling short, etc, etc is to dodge the issue on how the Watchtower literature has painted the ideal Witness character for men, women and families. It’s akin to the similar suburban and urban ideals that were portrayed in family and advertisements during the 1950’s and 1960’s for an ideal family and home; families went through extraordinary means to hide their dysfunction to the point of self-harming and enabling those who were causing harm.
We see this repeated in the incessant denial of Witnesses that child abuse and pedophilia exists in the organization and that the Watchtower Society covers it up to avoid presenting the “less-than-perfect” reality and preserve its “a paradise away from the world” hype. We all heard that–you didn’t want to leave a meeting or assembly because it was the ideal of how the “new world” would be–“the new system.” It disguised the fact that someone in that audience may have been beating their child beyond disciplinary measures, a spouse being abused, or someone struggling with addictions.
So, being less-than-ideal and facing isolation — further isolation — a teen would have some serious issues to cope, and thus a need for secular / professional assistance in mapping out “who they are” versus everyone else, family, and religious community.
Reply
 

 Ann a.k.a Gypsy Sam says:

 June 10, 2013 at 9:00 am

Great comment. I’ve recently learned TTATT and what you stated is exactly the observation I’ve reached about JW world.
Reply
 

 Rob says:

 November 6, 2013 at 9:39 pm

Slow down. Let’s find out all the info like prescription drugs. Not to say this is tragic and our children need support (of which I have one).
Reply
 

 Candyeye says:

 January 24, 2014 at 9:14 am

I was once caught up with this ‘cult’. People have to start educating themselves on this stupid cult and help those who are in need by showing them love and patience. Educate yourself on these dangerous cults who are greedy and do not care about your well being and who blame everything on their god. Swearing that it’s gods law and we have to blindly follow it! That is not how free will works. Free will cannot be followed if there are wolves in sheeps clothing deceiving those, trapping those who are vulernable to it’s attacks and persuasions. Don’t drink the poison! Love yourself
Reply
 

 Sandie says:

 March 6, 2014 at 9:02 am

(Please bear with my English, I am no native speaker)
While I have every sympathy with your website and cause against JW’s, I really feel extremely uncomfortable seeing Paris’ attempted suicide dragged in here for possible proof of how corrosive this cult may be.
You even say you “express your deepest concerns” but yet have not the decency to refrain exploiting her suicide attempt. Just because it may serve your cause. Please don’t all jump on me, that’s just how my first (and second) reaction was to this posted here.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 6, 2014 at 9:11 am

Thanks for your observations Sandie. However the above article was worded extremely carefully so as to not make any assertions as to the causes of Paris’ suicide attempt. i.e. “Whatever the issues surrounding this disturbing news, whether this development is related to Paris’ religious upbringing or not, at the center of this story is a very troubled young woman who urgently needs the help, support and understanding of those around her – including trained mental health professionals.”
Are you saying that young JW celebrities are somehow “off limits,” and we in the Ex-JW community are not allowed to talk about well-publicized problems that may befall them?
Reply
 
 

 Julia says:

 March 6, 2014 at 9:15 am

Former Jehovah’s Witnesses no longer have to go by the ‘rules’ of the Watchtower. We are part of the world now and there is absolutely nothing wrong with Cedars’ article that addressed a possibility that crossed many of our minds. Why can’t we talk about this? The answer is, we can!
Reply
 

 So glad to be out says:

 March 6, 2014 at 9:42 am

Sandie,
 When you lose someone to a cult and you know that it has an extreme hold over them and you hear that they are sad and have attempted suicide, would you keep quiet? The most compassionate thing you could do is to tell the world about the cult, so that nobody else has to suffer. That is all Cedars is doing and I for one am very grateful. Do independent research and find out about what people have experienced, the loss of family members, the loss of years of their lives. Its not like being a Catholic, there are consequences for being associated with this cult. Many children had no option but to be fed these teachings, because its what their parents or grandparents wanted – Paris for example. For some the only escape that seemed possible was suicide. Others have walked away but bear the scars. Rather than attack the messenger, be part of the army that is stopping the abuse. Paris may one day thank you for that.
Reply
 

 Sandie says:

 March 6, 2014 at 12:24 pm

You are right, you didn’t explicit said, that her religious upbringing was the cause of that. I read that too and have to honor you for this.
And yet, bringing it here in this possible context. It has something of “using” her case to try to imply something, while nobody but her knows what drove her to that point. It might be simply a boy (or girl) who broke her heart. It might well be something else. Nobody knows.
Of course her suicide attempt is well documented in the yellow press, full of speculation. I just somehow think, she’s a desperate girl in great pain, don’t try to prove a point with her, well documented or not.
I didn’t want to start a fight here, and I understand also that you are all somehow at least emotionally abused from JWs, I just don’t get it that you drag a teenager into this, who didn’t volunteer for this article at all. That’s all. Sorry.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 6, 2014 at 12:28 pm

Thanks Sandie. I take your observations on board. But since I was merely reporting on the news and reciting known information about Paris rather than “using” her, as you put it, there isn’t a great deal I can do. In any case, thank you for visiting JWsurvey and I hope you find the information on this website useful.
Reply
 
 

 Sandie says:

 March 6, 2014 at 12:34 pm

So glad,
telling people from one’s own first hand experience is something completely different than this. Nobody can claim to know this teenage girl from acquaintance, not me, not you, nobody.
I don’t even take particular interest in her case, I am no person to hunt celebrities, I wasn’t even fan of Michale Jackson, because I was and am really more of the Freddie Mercury fan.
I just think, you can do better than that. Bring people with first hand experience. If you have to refrain to uninvolved kids, then this is just mind boggling to me.
Reply
 

 So glad to be out says:

 March 6, 2014 at 1:26 pm

Sandie,
 There are many thousands that will give you first hand experience, me included, I have a dead nephew, a sister and a more, because of this cult. Cedars reported what the press was reporting. I can see the links, to the experiences of many, not least because of my experience. I am glad he is exposing abuse of this cult and the effects it has upon young minds. It may be mind boggling to you, it is not to many thousands who know the facts. I can only say, do the research.
Reply
 

 BP says:

 March 15, 2014 at 4:09 pm

Whilst in the ladies room at the Kingdom Hall, I overheard two young teenage sisters saying that they didn’t want to be there and they had failed to ‘get out of it’ that day. They were only really there to please their parents. The internal conflict resulted in the one young girl committing suicide about a year later. The other one married the first young man she could get, in order to leave home. She soon left her husband for a man ‘in the world’ and was of course disfellowshipped. What a sad state of affairs.
 The teenage children of Jehovah’s Witnesses are often in a state of mental distress, trying to please ‘God’ and yet wanting some sort of excitement in their lives. Balance and understanding are needed. Pressure to conform will never work.
 As is the case with Paris, she needs love and more than the usual amount of care. She is in a very precarious position with media attention to cope with as well as a dominating grandmother. I do hope she comes through this and learns to enjoy her young life to the full without any more tragedy.
 I have now left the Watchtower Society because of finding out that there is deceit in their teaching and the despicable cases of child abuse continue to rise.
Reply
 

 SUZANNE RACINE says:

 March 20, 2014 at 10:57 am

I’VE BEEN IN THAT CULT FOR OVER THIRTY YEARS, I REALLY DON’T AGREE ABOUT FORCING OUR CHILDREN TO BE SOMEONE THEY’RE NOT, JUST LIKE THEIR PARENTS, THEY BRAINWASH THE WAY THEY’RE BRAINWASHED. MY CHILDREN ALL LEFT ON THEIR OWN, THEY HAVE THEIR OWN PERSONALITY AND EDUCATION WHICH THE SOCIETY ISN’T TOO KEEN, BUT GOING FROM DOOR TO DOOR WON’T PAY YOUR BILLS. THE GUILT THEY PUT IN OUR MIND IS ABOUT THE HARDEST, BUT IT DOES PASS.YOUNG ONES BE WHO YOU WANT TO BE NO SHAME.
Reply
 

 Art Fern says:

 June 20, 2014 at 2:02 pm

I feel so badly for MJ’s children, the way he obtained them and his example to them could not have been anymore sick and twisted, a privileged we accord the wealthy and famous. I really want to corner Katherine and bluntly ask her: “How the Witnesses working out for the kids, your marriage”? If they is a more dysfunctional extended family on earth, I am not aware of them. The Tower certainly has not been the rock they could hold to give their kids a good foundation and enrich the parents marriage. It just makes for such a sad story of hurting and unproductive lives, (outside the very temporary success in the music biz). If you believe in the power of prayer, say one for the grandkids.
Reply
 

 RiRi says:

 June 26, 2014 at 1:46 pm

Wow …….same church it was in the early 70’s.
 Everyone into everyone else’s business. That is why I left.
 Why would ANY of you want to know the business of Jackson’s daughter? Did you really expect ANY different? And where was the wonderful Katherine when Michael and all the brothers were being abused by their father? I am sure she was a JW back then. WAKE UP!!!!
Reply
 

 RiRi says:

 June 26, 2014 at 1:52 pm

I agree . I was told as a 17 year old in 1971 that the end would be within a year or two. Then I saw the true picture a few years later and left. NEVER to go back.
 I wonder what the number of drop outs is now?
Reply
 

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← Governing Body’s David Splane says forcing young ones to get baptized is “wise” thing to do
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Breaking News: Paris Jackson Attempts Suicide
avatar
Posted on June 5, 2013

Paris Jackson, who has been raised in a Witness family, has reportedly been taken to hospital following a suicide attempt

News is emerging that Paris Jackson, daughter of the late Michael Jackson, has been rushed to hospital on June 5th following a suicide attempt.
Emergency services responded to a call at her home at 1.27am local time and claim to have taken a single person to a local medical center. Multiple sources are reporting this person to be Paris.
While it is impossible to say at this stage what has prompted this development, the online Witness community will be concerned given that little more than a month ago the celebrity gossip pages were reporting that Paris, who has been raised as a Jehovah’s Witness by her family, was refusing to go on the door-to-door ministry.
Her grandmother Katherine remains a staunch Jehovah’s Witnesses, having confirmed her faith on the Oprah Winfrey show in 2010 where she revealed that she had just returned from the ministry when she heard that her son Michael had been hospitalized. According to the Sky News website, Paris and her siblings continue to live with their grandmother following the singer’s death.
Below is a video, posted to YouTube a month ago, revealing the fact that Paris refused to take part in Witness field ministry…


According to TMZ.com, Paris reportedly “threw a fit” last night when she was told she couldn’t go to a Marilyn Manson concert. The same source reports that there are signs of cutting on Paris’ arms – indicating long-standing emotional problems.
Whatever the issues surrounding this disturbing news, whether this development is related to Paris’ religious upbringing or not, at the center of this story is a very troubled young woman who urgently needs the help, support and understanding of those around her – including trained mental health professionals.
On behalf of all those involved with JWsurvey.org, I express my deepest concern for Paris and my sincerest hope that she will have a quick and speedy recovery.







Further reading…
◾TMZ.com article on the story
◾SkyNews article on the story
◾Charisma News: Did Cultish Religion Move Paris Jackson to Attempt Suicide?
◾Recent instructions to Jehovah’s Witnesses regarding self harm
Related video…




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24 Responses to Breaking News: Paris Jackson Attempts Suicide

 Julia says:

 June 5, 2013 at 12:06 pm

I hope that Paris Jackson gets the professional help that she needs during this difficult time.
Thank you for sharing this information.
When teens are suicidal it is not a spiritual malady to be remedied through prayer, as the recent Awake! magazine tries to claim. These children need real help and attention from medical professionals!
Reply
 

 KtotheRAD "Konrad" says:

 June 5, 2013 at 1:02 pm

Even though I was hoping so hard that this wasn’t going to be the case, I anticipated something tragic along this line some time ago…Here you have a young lady floating around in a parental vaccuum and also under exponential pressure of worldwide public scrutiny and that tender age? With such a freakish family? Public speculation as to who her father even is? Now public charges of her father being a criminal again? Throw in the cult pressure element to confuse things with twisted life and death and abuse pressures that are non applicable and false, making a loving God look like an ogre rather than a friend? She already spoke of bullying and abuse at school when I had her on twitter so I was hoping against hope that nothing bad would transpire…
Reply
 

 Magusknight1974 says:

 June 5, 2013 at 3:24 pm

Nice Work. Great example of someone who chooses to not follow down the path they are given by their family. If she is hurting it is due to all the pressures around her and prayer as little impact in healing her woes. I believe once she finds her way through her problems she will be in a much better place. The cancer of forcing the youth to do what they are told is now manifesting itself with self mutilation and suicide. If Paris does read any of these comments then I tell you that your loved. We respect your choices as long as your happy but be careful not to be fooled by your family as they are manipulated by others too. Great Job Cedars, Save the Children is your mission of truth.
Reply
 

 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 June 5, 2013 at 10:49 pm

Her grandmother needs professional help first for a long lasting solution. She must be psychologically disturbed by the cult teachings. This cult has the capacity to penetrate and destroy your life through family members. They BELIEVE that they are “The First Woe—Locusts” “The Locust Plague Today” “a plague of locusts that attack those ‘who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.’ that “authority was given them, the same authority as the scorpions of the earth have.” (Revelation 9:2, 3) (Read Revelation Climax chapter 22)!!!
Reply
 

 Cedars says:

 June 6, 2013 at 11:46 am

JWsurvey’s own Richard E. Kelly has been quoted in Charisma News on this link: http://www.charismanews.com/us/39785-did-cultish-religion-move-paris-jackson-to-commit-suicide
“There is a high incidence of suicide attempts and cutting among JW children,” he says. “They’re told to go to all the meetings; they’re told Armageddon is coming; they’re told they need to go door-to-door to hand out materials. Kids with minds of their own develop problems with these demands and act out in various ways. Suicide attempts are not uncommon.”
Reply
 

 KtotheRAD "Konrad" says:

 June 6, 2013 at 12:04 pm

Way to go Richard!
Reply
 

 AnonE says:

 June 6, 2013 at 7:15 pm

Dat, dat, dat… My thoughts and prayers are with Paris and family in working through this, but isn’t this family built on being “independent” of following Mama Katherine’s wishes? and, specifically, the wishes of the elders? Paris is true to her father’s nature–a free-spirit with morals and ethics but unwilling to be confined to a box of conformity. Consider that for a celebrity (and Paris as a descendant of a superstar and having a paparazzi following qualifies) they would need to “tone-down” and “costume-up” to fulfill the door-to-door requirement to avoid attracting photographers and possibly harming the service group as they are trampled or run over. That is weird.
But, what really, really is ironic is that the origins–if we reach way, way, way back to the roots–of influence on Russell and the Watchtower publications, we find non-conformity and free-thinkers who refused to be confined to a box of conformity–a rebellion against standard Christian theology and forms of devotion.
I LOVE IT!!! A dose of their own medicine and a bitter pill to swallow!
Hang in there, Paris. TO borrow a phrase, “it gets better!”
Reply
 

 JBob says:

 June 8, 2013 at 2:10 pm

It’s often posited that a cult drives people to commit suicide. Naturally, any group disowns this infamy, but a group’s dynamics can create fertile grounds which accelerate an individual’s inclination toward suicidal tendencies. As we’ve seen from the “Letter to Elders” regarding India and the push for “exemplary JW families” and the constant measuring up to the “ideal Witness” model written in the Watchtower creates an atmosphere where perfectionism is rewarded and praised. To counter that Jehovah’s organization realizes we are all humans with imperfections due to Adam’s falling short, etc, etc is to dodge the issue on how the Watchtower literature has painted the ideal Witness character for men, women and families. It’s akin to the similar suburban and urban ideals that were portrayed in family and advertisements during the 1950’s and 1960’s for an ideal family and home; families went through extraordinary means to hide their dysfunction to the point of self-harming and enabling those who were causing harm.
We see this repeated in the incessant denial of Witnesses that child abuse and pedophilia exists in the organization and that the Watchtower Society covers it up to avoid presenting the “less-than-perfect” reality and preserve its “a paradise away from the world” hype. We all heard that–you didn’t want to leave a meeting or assembly because it was the ideal of how the “new world” would be–“the new system.” It disguised the fact that someone in that audience may have been beating their child beyond disciplinary measures, a spouse being abused, or someone struggling with addictions.
So, being less-than-ideal and facing isolation — further isolation — a teen would have some serious issues to cope, and thus a need for secular / professional assistance in mapping out “who they are” versus everyone else, family, and religious community.
Reply
 

 Ann a.k.a Gypsy Sam says:

 June 10, 2013 at 9:00 am

Great comment. I’ve recently learned TTATT and what you stated is exactly the observation I’ve reached about JW world.
Reply
 

 Rob says:

 November 6, 2013 at 9:39 pm

Slow down. Let’s find out all the info like prescription drugs. Not to say this is tragic and our children need support (of which I have one).
Reply
 

 Candyeye says:

 January 24, 2014 at 9:14 am

I was once caught up with this ‘cult’. People have to start educating themselves on this stupid cult and help those who are in need by showing them love and patience. Educate yourself on these dangerous cults who are greedy and do not care about your well being and who blame everything on their god. Swearing that it’s gods law and we have to blindly follow it! That is not how free will works. Free will cannot be followed if there are wolves in sheeps clothing deceiving those, trapping those who are vulernable to it’s attacks and persuasions. Don’t drink the poison! Love yourself
Reply
 

 Sandie says:

 March 6, 2014 at 9:02 am

(Please bear with my English, I am no native speaker)
While I have every sympathy with your website and cause against JW’s, I really feel extremely uncomfortable seeing Paris’ attempted suicide dragged in here for possible proof of how corrosive this cult may be.
You even say you “express your deepest concerns” but yet have not the decency to refrain exploiting her suicide attempt. Just because it may serve your cause. Please don’t all jump on me, that’s just how my first (and second) reaction was to this posted here.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 6, 2014 at 9:11 am

Thanks for your observations Sandie. However the above article was worded extremely carefully so as to not make any assertions as to the causes of Paris’ suicide attempt. i.e. “Whatever the issues surrounding this disturbing news, whether this development is related to Paris’ religious upbringing or not, at the center of this story is a very troubled young woman who urgently needs the help, support and understanding of those around her – including trained mental health professionals.”
Are you saying that young JW celebrities are somehow “off limits,” and we in the Ex-JW community are not allowed to talk about well-publicized problems that may befall them?
Reply
 
 

 Julia says:

 March 6, 2014 at 9:15 am

Former Jehovah’s Witnesses no longer have to go by the ‘rules’ of the Watchtower. We are part of the world now and there is absolutely nothing wrong with Cedars’ article that addressed a possibility that crossed many of our minds. Why can’t we talk about this? The answer is, we can!
Reply
 

 So glad to be out says:

 March 6, 2014 at 9:42 am

Sandie,
 When you lose someone to a cult and you know that it has an extreme hold over them and you hear that they are sad and have attempted suicide, would you keep quiet? The most compassionate thing you could do is to tell the world about the cult, so that nobody else has to suffer. That is all Cedars is doing and I for one am very grateful. Do independent research and find out about what people have experienced, the loss of family members, the loss of years of their lives. Its not like being a Catholic, there are consequences for being associated with this cult. Many children had no option but to be fed these teachings, because its what their parents or grandparents wanted – Paris for example. For some the only escape that seemed possible was suicide. Others have walked away but bear the scars. Rather than attack the messenger, be part of the army that is stopping the abuse. Paris may one day thank you for that.
Reply
 

 Sandie says:

 March 6, 2014 at 12:24 pm

You are right, you didn’t explicit said, that her religious upbringing was the cause of that. I read that too and have to honor you for this.
And yet, bringing it here in this possible context. It has something of “using” her case to try to imply something, while nobody but her knows what drove her to that point. It might be simply a boy (or girl) who broke her heart. It might well be something else. Nobody knows.
Of course her suicide attempt is well documented in the yellow press, full of speculation. I just somehow think, she’s a desperate girl in great pain, don’t try to prove a point with her, well documented or not.
I didn’t want to start a fight here, and I understand also that you are all somehow at least emotionally abused from JWs, I just don’t get it that you drag a teenager into this, who didn’t volunteer for this article at all. That’s all. Sorry.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 6, 2014 at 12:28 pm

Thanks Sandie. I take your observations on board. But since I was merely reporting on the news and reciting known information about Paris rather than “using” her, as you put it, there isn’t a great deal I can do. In any case, thank you for visiting JWsurvey and I hope you find the information on this website useful.
Reply
 
 

 Sandie says:

 March 6, 2014 at 12:34 pm

So glad,
telling people from one’s own first hand experience is something completely different than this. Nobody can claim to know this teenage girl from acquaintance, not me, not you, nobody.
I don’t even take particular interest in her case, I am no person to hunt celebrities, I wasn’t even fan of Michale Jackson, because I was and am really more of the Freddie Mercury fan.
I just think, you can do better than that. Bring people with first hand experience. If you have to refrain to uninvolved kids, then this is just mind boggling to me.
Reply
 

 So glad to be out says:

 March 6, 2014 at 1:26 pm

Sandie,
 There are many thousands that will give you first hand experience, me included, I have a dead nephew, a sister and a more, because of this cult. Cedars reported what the press was reporting. I can see the links, to the experiences of many, not least because of my experience. I am glad he is exposing abuse of this cult and the effects it has upon young minds. It may be mind boggling to you, it is not to many thousands who know the facts. I can only say, do the research.
Reply
 

 BP says:

 March 15, 2014 at 4:09 pm

Whilst in the ladies room at the Kingdom Hall, I overheard two young teenage sisters saying that they didn’t want to be there and they had failed to ‘get out of it’ that day. They were only really there to please their parents. The internal conflict resulted in the one young girl committing suicide about a year later. The other one married the first young man she could get, in order to leave home. She soon left her husband for a man ‘in the world’ and was of course disfellowshipped. What a sad state of affairs.
 The teenage children of Jehovah’s Witnesses are often in a state of mental distress, trying to please ‘God’ and yet wanting some sort of excitement in their lives. Balance and understanding are needed. Pressure to conform will never work.
 As is the case with Paris, she needs love and more than the usual amount of care. She is in a very precarious position with media attention to cope with as well as a dominating grandmother. I do hope she comes through this and learns to enjoy her young life to the full without any more tragedy.
 I have now left the Watchtower Society because of finding out that there is deceit in their teaching and the despicable cases of child abuse continue to rise.
Reply
 

 SUZANNE RACINE says:

 March 20, 2014 at 10:57 am

I’VE BEEN IN THAT CULT FOR OVER THIRTY YEARS, I REALLY DON’T AGREE ABOUT FORCING OUR CHILDREN TO BE SOMEONE THEY’RE NOT, JUST LIKE THEIR PARENTS, THEY BRAINWASH THE WAY THEY’RE BRAINWASHED. MY CHILDREN ALL LEFT ON THEIR OWN, THEY HAVE THEIR OWN PERSONALITY AND EDUCATION WHICH THE SOCIETY ISN’T TOO KEEN, BUT GOING FROM DOOR TO DOOR WON’T PAY YOUR BILLS. THE GUILT THEY PUT IN OUR MIND IS ABOUT THE HARDEST, BUT IT DOES PASS.YOUNG ONES BE WHO YOU WANT TO BE NO SHAME.
Reply
 

 Art Fern says:

 June 20, 2014 at 2:02 pm

I feel so badly for MJ’s children, the way he obtained them and his example to them could not have been anymore sick and twisted, a privileged we accord the wealthy and famous. I really want to corner Katherine and bluntly ask her: “How the Witnesses working out for the kids, your marriage”? If they is a more dysfunctional extended family on earth, I am not aware of them. The Tower certainly has not been the rock they could hold to give their kids a good foundation and enrich the parents marriage. It just makes for such a sad story of hurting and unproductive lives, (outside the very temporary success in the music biz). If you believe in the power of prayer, say one for the grandkids.
Reply
 

 RiRi says:

 June 26, 2014 at 1:46 pm

Wow …….same church it was in the early 70’s.
 Everyone into everyone else’s business. That is why I left.
 Why would ANY of you want to know the business of Jackson’s daughter? Did you really expect ANY different? And where was the wonderful Katherine when Michael and all the brothers were being abused by their father? I am sure she was a JW back then. WAKE UP!!!!
Reply
 

 RiRi says:

 June 26, 2014 at 1:52 pm

I agree . I was told as a 17 year old in 1971 that the end would be within a year or two. Then I saw the true picture a few years later and left. NEVER to go back.
 I wonder what the number of drop outs is now?
Reply
 

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Big Eyes, Big Lies: Painter Margaret Keane and the Truth
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Posted on March 16, 2015

Big Eyes starring Amy Adams (left) tells the story of JW painter Margaret Keane (right) and the fraud that shook the art world
Big Eyes starring Amy Adams (left) tells the story of JW painter Margaret Keane (right) and the fraud that shook the art world

It wasn’t easy as a creative child growing up in a devout Jehovah’s Witness household. My early dreams of becoming an artist were squashed by the future forced upon me. According to my indoctrination the only real career outlet for young Witnesses was working for the Watchtower. And I had little interest in going to headquarters to paint scenes of a paradise earth for the rest of my life. I preferred giant robots.
As a child, I came to learn of popular artist Margaret Keane through her life-story, as printed in an old issue of Awake! (My Life As An Artist, July 8,1975, Awake!) It was captivating to read of a JW with a successful art career outside the walls of Brooklyn Bethel. Of course by the time she joined the sect, her worldwide fame as an artist was already well toward establishment. How she got there is a fascinating story that became the basis of Big Eyes, a 2014 film by Tim Burton.
In the 1960’s, Margaret’s husband, Walter, took the pop-art world by storm with a series of paintings of waifs with large, haunted eyes. These big-eyes became a cultural phenomenon through Keane’s savvy merchandising, leading to wealth and fame. The only problem was that he didn’t paint any of them. The actual artist was his wife Margaret, who slaved away in secret producing hundreds of big-eyed waifs.
The Stray by Margaret Keane, an example of her big-eyed waifs.
The Stray by Margaret Keane, an example of her big-eyed waifs.

Burton’s film captures the soul-crushing nature of the art fraud. It’s difficult to watch as the painter squanders her talent to fulfill the egotistical dreams of her husband. Margaret was unable to share her art with even her daughter. Friends were driven away lest they discover the scam.
Hope enters the film when Margaret, played by Amy Adams, and her daughter Jane escape to Hawaii. “It’s a paradise there,” Margaret tells Jane. It’s somewhat of a premonition that sets up a major turn. There, two smiling JW sisters greet her with bright blue Truth books. As Margaret describes in her Awake! account, “one knock on my door would drastically change my life.”
It’s one of Hollywood’s better-written Watchtower presentations. Usually movies get it wrong with Witnesses rattling on about the savior Jesus, flashing literature with crosses, or condemning people to hell. In the film, a Japanese woman in a floral print dress smiles and begins a pitch. “We have something to share with you about the wonderful things that God’s kingdom will do for mankind.” When Margaret mentions that she didn’t see much good in the world, the JW opens to 1 Timothy 3:1-5. “In the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here, for men will be lovers of themselves…” Those who have participated in the JW door-to-door ministry could probably take it from there without missing a beat.
Amy Adams with Margaret Keane, who is sporting a JW.org lapel badge, at the premiere of Big Eyes
Amy Adams with Margaret Keane, who is sporting a JW.org lapel badge, at the premiere of Big Eyes

Margaret is swayed by the Bible passage that seems to describe her manipulative husband to the letter. The painter hesitantly invites the women in. She is later shown reading the Truth book to her teenage daughter. “I just can’t believe you let people in the house,” quips the girl. Walter later wonders about his wife’s mental state in joining a group of “zealots” that wouldn’t let the girl go to the prom.
First published in 1968, "The Truth That Leads to Eternal Life" was the "Bible Teach" book of its day
First published in 1968, The Truth That Leads to Eternal Life was the “Bible Teach” book of its day

In the Awake! account Margaret describes her conversion in different terms. Raised a Methodist, she floated through a variety of Christian sects and dabbled in esoteric practices like astrology and numerology. When the JW’s knocked, she was learning about the Seventh Day Adventists but wondered about their teachings on the Sabbath. Margaret liked the Witnesses views on the matter, and she was baptized with her daughter in 1972.
Margaret and Jane were two of many that joined the religion in the period leading up to the failed 1975 end-of-the-world prediction. The Truth book that Margaret studied stated, “in fifteen years from today, this world is going to be too dangerous to live in.” (This quote was removed in the 1981 edition)
In the movie, Margaret embraces her new JW friends and decides to come clean about the painting scam. A humorous moment occurs when her daughter asks their new JW community, “What does Jehovah think about suing?”
The painter’s revelation leads into a humorous courtroom showdown between Margaret and Walter, in order to prove the real painter. During the trial, Walter acts as his own lawyer in an outrageous display of buffoonery. Actor Christoph Waltz’s performance has been criticized as campy and over-the-top. In reality it is toned-down from the actual transcripts. At one point the judge threatened to duct tape the man’s mouth shut. In a test worthy of the Biblical King Solomon, the judge calls for a paint off. (If only problems in the congregation could be settled in such a manner.)
The film ends with Margaret being vindicated (or is it sanctified?) as the true producer of the big eyes enterprise. She moves back to Hawaii and continues to paint. While the film ends here, in real-life her art takes a turn. The waifs lose theirs tears and are posed in saturated paradises with pet lions and tigers. If it weren’t for the over-sized eyes, it would be easy to mistake her work for Watchtower propaganda. One such painting was gifted and displayed at the Hawaiian Bethel.
A Margaret Keane painting
A Margaret Keane painting entitled “Paradise At Last”

When looking at her work it is easy to envision how external forces shaped her work. The saddened waifs seem to mirror her feelings while under the artistic oppression of her husband. The Watchtoweresque paradises serve as a proselytism tool. (I have to wonder if she cleverly used painting to fulfill the religion’s monthly ministry quota.)
In the Awake!, Margaret credits the religion for breaking her addiction to painting, increasing sales, and bestowing artistic superpowers. She says:

Another change has been that I spend only about a fourth of the time I formerly spent painting, and yet, amazingly, I accomplish almost the same amount of work. Too, sales and comments indicate that the paintings are getting even better. Painting used to be almost an obsession with me. I was driven to paint because it was my therapy, escape and relaxation—my life completely revolved around it. I still enjoy it immensely, but the addiction to it and dependency on it are gone. Since my growing in knowledge of Jehovah, the Source of all creativity, it is no wonder that the quality of my paintings has increased as the time of execution has decreased.
At 87, the artist remains active in her faith. In promotional junkets for the film, Margaret was photographed with a blue JW.ORG lapel pin. It has become the latest fashion accessory for devout JW’s to advertise their religion while on the go, and now the red carpet.
Since leaving the Jehovah’s Witness organization, I’ve finally been able to get back to art, first as a writer and now as a comic book creator. I can’t draw very well, but as a comic colorist I know how to stay between the lines. I’m no Margaret Keane, but I’m better than her ex-husband ever was.
I’ll be guesting (with Stache Publishing) at Midsouthcon 33; Memphis, TN, USA, March 20th -22nd. If you are planning on attending, stop by and say hello.

anthony-signature2

Anthony Mathenia is a journalist, novelist, and comic book creator. He has one published novel Paradise Earth: Day Zero.  Happiness, Next Exit, a JW romance, will be released later in 2015. His comic Pretty Face can be read at www.prettyfacecomic.com.
Follow Anthony on Twitter: @armathenia
 Visit Anthony’s website: www.anthonymathenia.com


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66 Responses to Big Eyes, Big Lies: Painter Margaret Keane and the Truth

 Happyface says:

 March 16, 2015 at 1:53 am

Alien-child hybrids. Awesome. Modern day nephilim, except small and cute?
Reply
 

 Excelsior! says:

 March 16, 2015 at 3:26 am

I didn’t know that this artist is a JW. What a sad tale this is. She replaced one domineering bully for another!
I never liked her art. It is creepy and sickly sweet.
Well done, sir, for getting out and pursuing your talents to their limits.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 

 Cecil B. Demented says:

 March 16, 2015 at 7:07 am

I’m actually now interested in seeing this movie. Tim Burton’s directed some awful stuff this last decade of so (and with Alice Through the Looking Glass and a CG version of Dumbo on the way it’s only going to get worse) but this might be interesting.
On an unrelated note I do hope you find time and/or resources to write further Paradise Earth novels. I found the first somewhat haunting and suspenseful and am hoping you have chance to finish the proposed trilogy as I’m fascinated to see how you envision post-Armageddon Earth.
Reply
 
 Anthony Mathenia says:

 March 16, 2015 at 8:54 am

Thanks. Paradise Earth: Week One is in the works. It’s my goal to complete it this year.
Reply
 
 

 anonymous says:

 March 16, 2015 at 7:23 am

I am with Excelsior. I never cared for her art either. She came into the “truth” when Watchtower was promising us all that Armageddon was coming in 1975. I was one of those too and I remember at the time, I didn’t really believe it but everybody was so hyped up about it that you didn’t even dare to question it or you’d be viewed as “apostate”. I remember that very well and when 1976 rolled around and nothing happened, the Society didn’t say a word about their failed prophecy. Then later, the Society said they never prophesied it and that it was all the rank and file’s fault. I remember it well and they lied, plan and simple. The Society promised us as a “fact” that Armageddon was coming in 1975. After that, they kept us all hanging on with the fear that at any moment now, the world is going to come to an end by Jehovah’s hand.
In the 1975 Awake article about Margaret Keane, it doesn’t even mention her name so I had no idea about her paintings but later, one time I was out in service and a sister was telling about these painting with the little girls with the big eyes and that the painter was a Witness. Because the Awake didn’t mention her name in the article, I didn’t believe the sister that the painter who painted the little kids with the big eyes, who was so popular at the time was a Witness. Nowadays, the Society would definitely put her name to the article, even though she had only been baptized 2 years at the time of the printing in the article in 1975 and had just gotten over the habit of smoking.
In the 1975 article, it mentioned that she tried to prove the Society wrong before she got baptized, by getting all kinds of Bibles etc. but could a person do that today after they got baptized? This woman was in her 50’s when she got baptized, but today most people are baptized as children and as young as 8. How are they able to prove one way or the other that the Watchtower is telling the real “truth” or not before getting baptized? How are they able to compare a whole bunch of different religions and compare their teachings to the Bible?
Why isn’t a person able to question whether the Watchtower is telling the truth or not today? Today, we have a lot more information at our fingertips then we did in the 1960’s, 1970’s, 1980’s or even the 1990’s. Today we can learn the real truth about 607 B.C.E. with the click of the mouse on our computer. Would Margaret Keane but just as convinced the Watchtower had the real “truth” if she had read “Gentile Times Reconsidered” before she got baptized?
Once you get baptized, you can kiss researching the Watchtower goodbye, unless you want to face a judicial committee for finding out that the Watchtower does nothing but tell lies. You are forbidden to tell another living soul about what you found or you will be kicked out and shunned by every person in your life. For Mrs. Keane to find out not at her age that she had been following a dangerous cult, would just about kill her I’d think. But she has led a life of wealth and I am sure that those in her congregation treats her like a movie star and all those that study with her, are studying with her because she’s famous and there’s plenty of people in this world who want to associate with famous people and will join with the Witnesses just for that reason and that reason alone.
Reply
 
 Neal Krouni says:

 March 16, 2015 at 2:39 pm

Add Prince and those tennis-playing “sisters” to the list of “celebrity” jw’s.
 Didn’t Jesus tell the rich man to sell all his belongings before he became a follower?
Reply
 
 Darlene says:

 March 16, 2015 at 8:04 pm

TOUCHE’
Reply
 
 

 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 March 17, 2015 at 1:55 am

Armageddon is still there, coming soon… soon which has been preached since 1914….
“…Soon Jehovah will cause the political elements of Satan’s system, as represented by the United Nations, to attack false religion. They will destroy her influence and devastate her riches. Such an event may have seemed unlikely just decades ago. Today, the harlot teeters on the back of the scarlet-colored beast. Even so, she will not slip slowly from her seat. Her tumble will be sudden and violent.—Rev. 18:7, 8, 15-19.”
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/s/r1/lp-e?q=%22Soon+Jehovah+will+cause+the+political+elements%22&p=par
Reply
 

 Mara Jacobs-Proctor says:

 March 18, 2015 at 8:33 am

Hi, Just wanted to say that I really enjoyed reading your comments. You really ‘hit the nail on the head’.
I also was one of the ones who joined WT just before 1975. They managed to convince me to put my life on hold because the end was ‘nigh’ and somehow they got millions to continue doing that for decades. As you know, Anthony Morris just did a jwtv piece admonishing young ones to avoid college because ‘we are living deep into the time of the end.’ Day by day and inch by inch you lose the elements of what makes up a real life, waiting for what JWs call the real life-the new world. What a tragedy!
 I stopped meetings just a few months ago, and as word gets out, I have a fair amount of witnesses who want to know why. As you expressed, you are not allowed to explain why…or else! I know I will say more at some point. I want to. But right now I’m just trying to get my feet under me.
 The other thing I wanted to comment on was the celebrity adoration in WT. Hey! I thought we weren’t supposed to ‘exalt’ individuals. (Do birthdays ring a bell?) And if an active JW started pursuing an art career, that would be a no-no, but the WT is happy to use someone who did pursue this kind of career full bore. If it’s so wrong, why are they patting her on the back? I guess we all know the answer to that! Vincent DePorter said that he was working on ‘Scooby-Do’, with all its demons and spiritism, when he was a witness and no one said a thing. He said he thought it was because of the celebrity thing, and I know he’s right.
Reply
 
 

 Lesley Mitchell says:

 March 16, 2015 at 7:40 am

I can confirm that the 1968 Watchtower publication ‘The Truth that leads to Eternal Life” quotes from Dean Acheson who said “in fifteen years from today, this world is going to be too dangerous to live in.” It’s on page 9 and I’m looking at it. This was all part of the hype surrounding Watchtower expectations for October 1975. When nothing happened after October 1975, the Watchtower removed this quote.
Reply
 
 John Baptist says:

 March 16, 2015 at 8:22 am

“Stay alive in 75″ was the catch phrase back then. After listening to District overseers talks at the assembly’s prior to 1975 you are given such a clear urgency of “getting in before it’s to late”
What amazes me is to what extent in the years after that yet another failed prediction that the watchtower stated it was “Increased speculation by the friends” who caused all the hype.
 Have you ever known a organization that you can show by their own printed word that what they said and how wrong they were in saying it? Then flatly deny it and then blame it on their members. How ridiculous and common among those who think their right at any cost.
 The Governing body uses and loses people when they no longer fit their agenda.
 I wonder how much this woman has been duped out of her money by her devotion to this religion?
 My question is why would you sell your story and put yourself in the limelight associating with “Worldlings”
Oopps sorry I forgot their 2 sets of rules policies that dictates their every move in their favor.
I would feel embarrassed to ever have been known to be part of one of the biggest lies in the history of religion.
 For me the most notable thing in 1975 is I got my drivers license that year. Lol
Reply
 
 

 Excelsior! says:

 March 16, 2015 at 9:29 am

Folks, don’t forget the fallback position!
All the woe and cuddling of pandas was promised in the twentieth century!!!!
Woops! Blame it on the overzealous rank and file, not the numerous articles pre ’75, and dear old Freddy Franz’s talk at the assembly!!!
Those idiotic rank and file!!!! Fancy taking a specific date, spoken by a governing body member as……..a specific date spoken by a governing body member!!!
The WTBTS is busy destroying all reference to 1975. It is trying to control information in the Information Age! Good luck with that, you morons! Happily, all of the articles, and the talk by Freddie Franz, are available on the good old Internet!
Thanks for the comments about ’75. I was a very small child then, so I don’t really remember it.
The 1975 Scandal stands testament to the gullibility of human being’s, and just what can be accomplished by the use of cult mind control.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 
 Pickled brain says:

 March 16, 2015 at 10:05 am

The Yearbook Statistics 1970 to 1975 show a
 37%!!!! Yes 37 % !!!!! Increase in publishers!!
 The year 1977 shows -1% decrease & 1976 to 1980 shows over 5 years only a 2% increase!!
 The FACTS DON’T LIE. BUT the Governing Body does Lie!! Russell lied about when the end would come 1914 & 1915. Rutherfords lies were 1918& 1925 for the END & Franz big Lie was 1975!!!&
 The NEW GOverning Body LIES about Overlapping Generations!!! HOW MANY MORE LIES & WASTED LIVES ?????????????
Reply
 
 Pickled brain says:

 March 16, 2015 at 10:47 am

LIES, LIES & MORE Governing Body Lies!!
 Rutherford: 1935 !! The Door is now closed for the Anointed !’ Here come the Great Crowd!!!!
 ERMMM??!!! Mark Sanderson 50 years of age Born 1964. Anointed??!!!
 The Oldest Governing Body member Sam Herd or Gerrit Losch 79!! Born 1936 !! Not Baptised until 1950s !!!
 I smell something FISHY Here like 7 SHARKS wanting your money& time& energy & your Whole Life Wasted!!
Reply
 
 
 

 douglas philip says:

 March 16, 2015 at 11:08 am

Actually i find it interesting to se that what may be a burdon to some may be a safehaven to others …. Im a nonactive wittnes who has lost my faith in a religion that does not make sense to me anymore but i find it a bit sad that it has to be black or white about jw’s … For some it may be for good to belive and for others its not … The auther of this story found it to be a burdon but the artist mention by him found it just the other way around … Good for her :) really … Most of my familly are jw’s and i wouldnt try to force them to understand that it is not the truth as i see it … They belive and it gives them joy … I have to live my live the way i find it right to do but i wont take theire belives away from them just becouse i lost my on the way … Be negative as much as you want when there is something to be negative about but in this case the lady found what seemes to be a better life for her … Thats nothing to be negative about …
Sorry for my english its not my first language …
Take care Douglas
Reply
 
 John Baptist says:

 March 16, 2015 at 11:23 am

@Douglas I agree with you very much but where the problem lyes is when they tell you where your wrong(negative)) all the time. I get the if it works for you then great but for the rest of us just leave us alone and stop trying to push your man made policies on us that are masked by misapplied scriptures from average laymen.
 Instead they break down family unity and destroy families.
Reply
 
 douglas philip says:

 March 16, 2015 at 11:49 am

@john baptist
 Your right … Thats negative i think being able to embrace the positives more and then pointing out the negatives carefully and mention that that particularly is the reason for ones stand not to engage with the jw’s might take one futher in a conversation with any jw’s but ofcourse i might be wrong … I personally try not to be in opposition but to be neutral in my aproach and i wont neccesarily tell my own wiew off the matter and then i am able to speak with most off my relatives and jw friends and make them think … And people to day might be brought up to much worse cenarios then being baptised as teenager … What if your a muslim or bretheren or mormon or amish … At the end you decide for your own wich way in life to choose and your familly choose theirs … the deeply belive you dont and your familly breaks … Sad …. But unfortunetly thats life for many others the jw’s … I think that if we show them by our way of living and our example that they are not true bout us then sooner or later they might understand … Then again thats my wiew for now .. I might be wrong :)
 Thanks for your reply btw :)
 Cheers :)
Reply
 
 Pickled brain says:

 March 16, 2015 at 12:05 pm

@Douglas Philip. I’m sorry but I cannot agree . It is not as simple as your argument portrays. First of all prior to baptism your Study Conductor will not tell you the WHOLE HISTORY & FAILED PROPHECIES of the Organisation !!
 Secondly if you start JUST ASKING Questions about Governing Body policies or doctrines you will be ostracised ,shunned, pulled into the Backroom with the Elders.
 If their is a RESOLUTION & the congregation is asked to have a show of hands say for donating for a BRAND NEW Circuit overseers car every 3 years& you were the only one to oppose & shouted out why cant the circuit overseer cope with a 10 year old car like most of us & could that donation go to help a single mother with 4 children in the congregation!!! See what would Happen!!
Reply
 
 douglas philip says:

 March 16, 2015 at 2:06 pm

I know … And thats when you start questioning and end up picking your own path in life …. I agree that its not honest when they study with you not telling you everything but thats just bad luck getting involved with them :( life aint fair and it doesnt have to be … Think about it … If you didnt know what you know now you probably wouldt be in opposition …
But you dont have to be right up front to oppose … Its easy to withstand and obvious attack but reasoning on a neutral level like with one of your own … Thats a diference…. If you want to affect them you have to speak to them … Most of them will not look at any of your oppinions if your to obvious … But yeah thats just how i see it … I tried to question obviously and got a worried and supecious reply … So i stopd doing that and now im just dripping a drop from time to time and it works :) i got some to start thinking … And guess what … If they end up leaving it will be their own choice and they would maybe have done reeserch on their own i have allready wittnese’d that :)

 
 
 
 
 

 Ted says:

 March 16, 2015 at 2:47 pm

@douglas philip. Hi Douglas. I can understand how many
 JWs, might feel the org, is a “Safe Haven” but this is just an
 illusion.
It takes a long time, sometimes to the end of ones life for one
 to realise that it’s not been a sanctuary but a snare, a trap,
Ones who have devoted fully to it have had life’s potential
 sucked out of them just like the spider siphons all the juices
 from the fly.
A husband and wife S,Pioneer couple I knew ( both now dead )
 longed for children of their own, but put it off until the promised
 near at hand paradise. So even if the resurrection was a reality
 their hopes will still be dashed as the children of the resurrection
 neither marry or are given in marriage.
My own sister a 50 year plus JW, died a year ago, disappointed
 at unfulfilled promises. One of her last statements to me was
“Who would have thought I’d end up here, ( In the hospice.)
Add to this the many bright intelligent young people who have
 had their potential stifled and wasted their youth knocking on
 doors and in effect, just drawing others into the fly trap.
While I wouldn’t badger or pester my JW, relatives, I would,
 if the opportunity arises, try to expose the myth of the
“safe Haven”. Because I love them.
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 16, 2015 at 2:56 pm

@ douglas philip
I like your strategy. But it IS hard not to be negative toward WT, especially considering that born-ins or raised-ins barely have a choice. They are brainwashed as kids, by their parents, the elders, the congregation, and the GB, and all the literature. It’s hard to be neutral toward that, especially when you’ve been subjected to it. NO ONE likes to be lied to, intimidated, and manipulated. It simply goes against basic human nature. By the way, my comments apply to EVERY religion. It’s just that the JWs are the worst, hence truly a CULT!!!
Reply
 
 Darlene says:

 March 16, 2015 at 8:08 pm

ABSOLUTELY AGREE 100%!
Reply
 
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 16, 2015 at 3:07 pm

@ Pickled brain
Yes, I think everyone agrees that the “overlapping generation” doctrine is the most inane, ridiculous, unfounded, nonsensical, illogical, idiotic, and just plain STUPID teaching in the history of mankind!!!
Reply
 

 Ted says:

 March 16, 2015 at 4:55 pm

@Pickled brain. Lies, lies and more is right. it’s even absurd
 the way they pick these young kids out of thin air and how they
 just happen to be of the anointed. Legerdemain ! they’ve got
 more tricks than Harry Houdini.
Mark Sanderson 60, goodness me! my sons older than him
 and I, though older than any gb, member, would not qualify
 on the1935 deadline ( another piece of chicanery) !
 being just a youngster back then.
It’s always struck me as being the result of a, Gigantic Ego
 plus religious delusion, claiming that some all powerful creator
 has personally selected you to rule over everything he’s ever
 created. Or as you say P,B, it could be “Lies lies and more”.
And this for personal advantage.
Reply
 
 Neal Krouni says:

 March 16, 2015 at 9:25 pm

Believe it or not, there’s a 40-year-old guy in my mother’s cong who claims he’s “anointed,” and everyone accepts it, including Steroid Boy, the “overseer.” Believe it or not, the guy’s name is Ted! Small world!! :)
Reply
 
 

 Andrew Krzynowek says:

 March 16, 2015 at 7:28 pm

Good write up Anthony, I had no idea she was a dub, I’ll definitely check out the film.
Reply
 
 Anthony Mathenia says:

 March 21, 2015 at 3:17 pm

Thanks Andrew. It was panned, but I enjoyed it. No Depp or Bonham-Carter.
Reply
 
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 16, 2015 at 9:37 pm

In their own way, the GB is pretty clever. Thanks to the “Overlapping Generation” doctrine, they found a way to cover their butts ad infinitum. The “End” could come tomorrow, next month, a million, billion, trillion, gazillion years from now. Obviously, EVERY generation overlaps the previous one. It could go on forever (shudder). No more deadlines, failed predictions, or magical calculations. Only a flock of blind sheep following and obeying unquestioningly.
Reply
 

 Man from the lions pit says:

 March 16, 2015 at 9:45 pm

Good job Anthony on this article & film review!
 I should watch the movie one day.Many of my JW friends have done so and were excited about it, some of them are professional artist as well.I do have also partial art education and paint myself on/off. Best wishes !
Reply
 

 John Z says:

 March 16, 2015 at 11:38 pm

I am new to the other side of the fence so to speak. I saw the movie and think it’s sad WT was better than her husband.
I was born into this snare and so was my wife. I deep down always rejected some of the WTBTS B.S. My father a new convert before the door didn’t close in 1975 worked up the ladder to be a big Elder. His favourite thing to do still to this day is disfellowship people. What a sick bastard!
He used to beat me senseless to get me to “behave” like sitting perfectly still and quiet. If I didn’t, I would be hauled to the back and given a licking in the bathroom or second school and of course way more severely at home after.
I am still traumatised by his actions but I was not alone, many of my friends were in a similar situation. Some of my witness friends were beaten with belts, sticks or other weapons! My parents stopped using a small club after my non witness grandparents threatened to call child protection services.
Over all I would say my childhood was not all bad but when I had a child of my own last year my wife and I researched the WTBTS material from the 70’s and 80’s and was sickend to see that they sanctioned physical abuse to get your children to behave.
I am now, after much anguish preparing to fade away from this hell! Save my family from this cult. Thank God for Ray Franz, the person who leaked the elder book, and all of you courageous individuals who do what you can to impede this powerful tool of Satan, The Watchtower!
I’m so glad to at least have your support and a place to openly talk about the damage done in the name of God. These sick twisted power hungry men will one day come to an end!
P.S. Overlapping generation lol. Soon it will be the people that knew the people that knew the people. Let’s destroy these clowns!
Reply
 
 Pickled brain says:

 March 17, 2015 at 12:16 am

The ‘GENERATION ‘ doctrine of Matthew ch.24!!!
 How did JESUS define the length of ‘Generation ‘??
Well Governing Body I don’t need to be spirit directed ???to work it out!!
 JESUS uttered the prophecy in 33 C.E. & guess what just as every dictionary definition says a length of a Generation is about 30 or 40 years.
 The fulfilment of Jesus prophecy came in 70 C.E when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem..37 years later!!! YES a Generation was 37 years later.
 Now either this prophecy had one fulfilment or the GB have got the start of Last Days WRONG.!
 Is 1914? As beginning of Last Days correct ? Is the interpretation of Daniels ‘7 Times’ correct??
 The GB have changed so many Spirit Directed?? Interpretations dozens of times e.g. 1874,1878,1910,1914,1915,1918,1925,1942,1975,
 1994(Generation of 70 or 80 years ran out) ,etc
 Change on who GOG is;who Sheep&Goats are;Even who Faithful&Discreet Slave are; Organ Transplants;Vaccinations;Blood Fractions; Superior Authorities of Romans ch.13; Start of Great Tribulation was 1914 , now in the future; Pyramid of GIZA was Gods Stone witness and foretold 1874 as Beginning of Jesus Presence; then Rutherford(Apparently GB member) decides GIZA is from Satan in 1927!! Sodom&Gomorrah men are going to be resurrected & then not & yes they are& then no they’re not !!Need I go on ?? Etc,Etc
 I could relate Dozens more FLIP FLOPS like Is Oral Sex acceptable in marriage or is it Not ??
 Welcome to The CRAZY,CRAZY World of the GB!!
Reply
 
 Pickled brain says:

 March 17, 2015 at 1:13 am

‘NEW LIGHT ‘ Anyone ??,just to add to my last comment!!
 I see New Light!! My prophecy is the Governing Body WILL have to do a U-Turn on their Child Abuse Policies because it is getting TOO EXPENSIVE for them .Finances& Public Outcry& the Courts will make the Governing Body have More ‘New Light’ & we will see Changes. I Guarantee there will be an Article in a Watchtower but worded in such a way to Exonerate the GB from all blame.
 A small sign is the letter read out last year saying circuit overseers will appoint New Elders& Ministerisland servants instead of Bethel is CRAFTY because any new Elders & MS committing Sex Crimes appointed by Circuit Overseers means it’s these men can be sued instead of Bethel !!
 The Letter read out said it was biblically based but why change the way men are appointed after 90 years because it was Rutherfords idea to appoint men so he could have complete control!!But in those days Litigation wasn’t a problem. BROOKLYN always changes if Finances are involved!!
Reply
 
 Pickled brain says:

 March 17, 2015 at 1:39 am

When JESUS said ‘This Generation ‘ it is just ONE GENERATION not overlapping !!Matthew defines it in
 Matthew ch.1v17 . Read carefully Abraham to David 14 Generations; David until deportation to Babylon 14 Generations; 14 more Generations until CHRIST. Therefore each Generation could be no longer than a lifespan of ONE Single Person .Jesus didn’t say in Matthew 24v34 ‘THESE Generations’ BUT ‘THIS!!Generation’ SINGULAR!!
 So 8 Million have been HOODWINKED & CONNED just as those who in RUSSELLS day thought they were going to Heaven in 1914!!
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 17, 2015 at 8:58 am

Money talks.
Reply
 
 
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 17, 2015 at 9:01 am

@ John Z
Re: “Let’s destroy these clowns!”
Amen!
 You have my FULL support!!!
Reply
 

 Mara Jacobs-Proctor says:

 March 18, 2015 at 9:06 am

Hi John Z, It made me tear up to read about how you were regularly beat up as a child. My son is 31 and I remember in those times, if you didn’t beat your kid silly, you were the subject of disdain and gossip in the congregation. You were considered a bad parent in WT world. I remember realizing about 15 years ago that my son paid the price for me trying to get the approval of the friends by spanking him at the slightest provocation! But I still remained in the cult. Thankfully, both my son and myself are out now. And amazingly, my son doesn’t hold a thing against me, although I wouldn’t blame him if he did! He knows what can happen when you’re under the spell of mind control.
 And yes, Ray was such a courageous man and indeed thank God for him and others who have had the strength to stand up for what is right!
 I will be thinking of you and your family as you ‘fade’. It isn’t easy, but then again, nothing in life that is truly worthwhile is! Best wishes.
Reply
 
 Mara Jacobs-Proctor says:

 March 18, 2015 at 9:39 am

P.S., And John Z, Just wanted to add something. I remember back in the 70’s seeing a young mother lay a baby on the changing table at the hall and spanking this 7 mos. or so child! I was appalled at the time, but ashamed to say I didn’t say anything. All I can say is that it was considered fine and normal due to WT teaching at that time, but my gut would disagree sometimes. This is evidenced by how the friends would just sit there and continue reading and commenting at meetings whilst a screaming,young child was being beaten in the back room-as if nothing was amiss!
 Hope my previous post didn’t sound like I was making an excuse for your dad with the mind control comment. Sounds like your dad went the extra mile with the corporal punishment. But all I can say is that WT mind control definitely played a large part in how the average parent ‘disciplined’ their kids. Its not an excuse, but it is a reason. Thank God you’ve realized this and your child won’t have to suffer the same abuse.
 Take Care,
 Mara
Reply
 
 
 

 Charles Costante says:

 March 17, 2015 at 2:36 am

“Some of my witness friends were beaten with belts, sticks or other weapons! My parents stopped using a small club after my non witness grandparents threatened to call child protection services.”
That’s terrible, John Z! I can sympathise because my father used to use a leather razor strap on me (the fifties and sixties). I don’t know what the Watchtower Society’s policy is now, but not ‘sparing the rod’ was the order of the day back then.
Corporal punishment of children by parents is now banned in 44 countries.
Reply
 

 Ted says:

 March 17, 2015 at 6:01 am

@Neal Krouni. A 40 year old “Heavenly Ted”, in your mothers
 Cong. Gave me a good laugh.
It’s a good job Armageddon didn’t come, as predicted in. 75
 the year he was born or he would he would have missed out
 on his celestial mansion, ( Are they bricks and mortar by the
 way ? )
Maybe that’s why God hung back in 75, the elite wasn’t complete
 without young Ted and the other late comers. I’m confused!
Reply
 
 Neal Krouni says:

 March 17, 2015 at 9:05 am

I call him Cloud Boy.
Reply
 
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 17, 2015 at 9:25 am

So I remember a documentary on the early days of the Nazi party. What was so interesting was that things like the swastika, the “Heil” salute, even Crazy Adolf’s little mustache, were not random choices. They were very carefully thought-out and planned. As far as Germany and the Nazis go, the swastika was totally irrelevant. In fact, it originated in India, and swastika is a Sanskrit word meaning, essentially, “well-being”. The Nazis chose it because it was unique, no one had ever seen it before, it would catch the eye, and it would stand out in people’s minds. People who do things like that, do so INTENTIONALLY and KNOWINGLY. There’s nothing random about it. They don’t just sit around over margarita’s, spitballing ideas. It may start out that way, but it evolves into a SYSTEM, a METHODOLOGY.
Reply
 

 Ted says:

 March 17, 2015 at 10:45 am

Margaret Keane States, her painting is no longer an obsession,
 or addiction. She puts this down to increased knowledge of
 JHVH, this has the ring of wt, hype. The main thing they want
 You to be obsessive about is door knocking, not developing
 the talents you were born with.
I would encourage anyone with a special ability, not to be
 influenced negatively by her comments. Obsession is not
 always bad, it’s brought her wealth and success, and as she
 admits painting was an enjoyment, even a therapy.
Her obsession has produced something tangible that many have
 and do enjoy ( apparently not everyone though ).
 Following the wt, obsession produces Zilch, unless a string of
 empty promises and false expectations count for anything.
Reply
 

 rob says:

 March 17, 2015 at 12:33 pm

It is clear that what is expected of a person who becomes a witness – leave behind all sense of who you are and become a clone.
 Forget your talents, forget your strengths, and just follow the leaders blindly and put all your trust in these leaders.
 They will change doctrine and implement new rules at will and will tell you to do things that seem unreasonable from a human standpoint – but you must follow them.
 If you chose to disagree you will be shunned and your family and friends will no longer consider you to be a human being worthy of love or kindness.
Reply
 

 Ted says:

 March 17, 2015 at 4:11 pm

Margaret Keane has obviously been affected by wt, aura the
 feeling that God is personally influencing and affecting her
 life and actions.
She states.”Since my growing in knowledge of JHVH, the
 source of all creativity it is no wonder that the quality of my
 paintings has increased”. She also claims her output has not
 diminished even though she spends less time on it.
I know this feeling very well. When I first began to study in 58
 I used to play the horses and I had an amazing run of luck, of
 course I put this down to the fact that I was taking an interest in
 the Bible, and that God was picking the gee gees for me.
Back then I was a naive impressionable young guy.
 Margaret’s not young , but I venture the the thought, that she is
 naive, guileless, childlike, like the wide eyed children she paints.
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 18, 2015 at 12:00 am

“God save us from Your followers!!!”
Reply
 

 JJ says:

 March 18, 2015 at 4:34 am

The movie, Big Eyes, brought out the fact that no one in the art world liked Margaret Keane’s paintings. I know that I certainly don’t.
 I first learned about Margaret Keane back in the early ’90’s because the Canadian Bethel has a couple of her paintings up in the hallway near the tunnel. It is all big eyed animals on Noah’s Ark. I hated them!
 If it wasn’t for her ‘abusive husband’ then Margaret would still be drawing $5 portraits in the park, where she belongs! He was the person who did all the work of selling and promoting really bad art. I feel like the gallery owner who was across the street from the Keane’s gallery; that owner just couldn’t believe anyone would be interested in that “art”.
Why didn’t Jehovah give Margaret some talent when she became a JW?!?
 (Maybe I’m being a little too harsh with the woman but she has overdone it with those huge eyes. Move on to a better period in your art-life Margaret!)
Reply
 

 Ted says:

 March 18, 2015 at 9:31 am

Margaret is 87 years old, and at this point in her life
 things seem to be going well for her and she is. happy
 and content. One can only be glad on her behalf.
To attribute the good patches in ones life to the influence
 of a benevolent God though, is just ancient superstition.
 It’s part of the dualistic thinking,- God and Satan, good
 and evil.
This concept itself has resulted in much cruelty. In every
 war, God is on your side, the others are the demons, so
 providing an excuse for all kinds of atrocities. ( Look no
 further than the Bible itself for proof of this.)
The wt, exploits this idea to the maximum allowed by law.
 All who do not conform to the regime or accept their
 constantly changing dogma , are the apostates the Devil’s
 disciples, the walking dead.
The myth is used to create fear in others, forcing them to
 renounce and spurn even their own flesh and blood.
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 18, 2015 at 10:53 am

@ JJ
It calls to mind another JW “celebrity”, Prince. I never cared for his music, either. Never understood what the big deal was. Once he went up to accept an “award”, dressed in stockings and high heels. Woopdeedoo. Am I supposed to be impressed? And why do all these holy bigshots still cling to their fortunes?? Didn’t Jesus tell the rich man to sell all his belongings and give to the poor before he could be his follower???
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 18, 2015 at 10:58 am

@ Ted
I’m sure Margaret Keane IS content. It’s easy when there’s nothing going on upstairs. :) :) :)
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 18, 2015 at 11:42 am

So I recently took a stroll down memory lane, and recalled a couple fun stories from my personal experience in that wacky fairyland known as Watchtower.
 When I was about 13, a “ministerial servant” asked me if I was willing to study with a couple of younger kids in the cong. I said OK. This guy was Austrian, and some called him “The Fuehrer”, for reasons you shall see. He looked kind of like Patrick Stewart, and when he went up to give a talk, he would assume “the stance”, spreading his legs, and placing his hands authoritatively on either side of the podium, as if to say, “I have the Con.” Anyway, for some reason I mentioned the study thing to my mother, and she said I should run it by our book study conductor, an “elder”, since those kids were not in our own book study group, whatever difference that would make. So the next time Captain Picard approached me about it, I said I would get permission from my book study conductor first. This guy’s face immediately turned BEET RED, and he said, in his deep Austrian voice, “ARE YOU QUESTIONING MY AUTHORITY???” Keep in mind, I was 13 years old!!! I’m sure my jaw dropped. It was like seeing a vision out of Revelation. Never before or since have I seen anyone’s face turn that color.
 My idiot brother-in-law (who’s now an “elder”, like my fool brother BTW), once told a story about a “circuit overseer” visit. In his opening remarks to the cong, regarding himself and his wife dining at “brothers'” homes, he said something like, ‘We look forward to your hospitality this week, but please don’t feed us tuna. We’re not cats’. OK, maybe he was offered a lot of tuna in the past, but Hey, a**hole, you’re getting a Free Lunch everywhere you go, and now you’re complaining??? – Imagine buying some homeless guy a sandwich, and then having him complain it’s not the kind he likes. I would just take it back.
 One “circuit overseer” we had was a real piece of work. His name was Thorston Splett, and he always wore a bow tie. In his opening remarks, regarding himself and his wife, he said, “Don’t be afraid of us. We’re people like you. We’re human.” REALLY??? WOOOW!!!!! So I can stop pissing my pants whenever I see you coming, with your little bow tie? Jackass.
Reply
 
 JJ says:

 March 18, 2015 at 4:19 pm

Hey Neal, someone once said something, off-the-cuff, but it made a lot of sense to me (this guy wasn’t a JW);
“Guys that wear bow ties usually are weirdos and are looking for attention”.
I immediately found what he said was the truth.
Reply
 
 

 rob says:

 March 18, 2015 at 3:58 pm

I always found it amazing that witnesses tended to put the circuit overseers on a pedestal and always ensured to attend all meetings during their visit. To me it really seemed like the witnesses idolized the COs the DOs and The GB. What is more amazing to me is that it appears that these men enjoy the attention and the power that is bestowed upon them by the rank and file.
Reply
 
 Neal Krouni says:

 March 19, 2015 at 4:08 pm

For sure!!!
Reply
 
 

 John Chapman says:

 March 19, 2015 at 3:10 am

ALL of the published financial numbers like Stock prices, Commodities prices, Housing prices, Inflation, Unemployment and Interest rates are rigged and have no basis in reality. Gold and Silver futures (paper transactions) out strip Gold and Silver supplies by over 100 to 1. 90% of American Gold and Silver has been shipped to India, China and the Middle East to pay on the Governments debt. Gold and Silver prices are set by the London Gold exchange and they are artificially holding down Gold and Silver prices by faking the numbers so THEY can purchase Our Gold and Silver cheaply. Bottom line: The dollar is going to crash like the Titanic and anything you have in your savings or retirement that is not actual Gold, Silver, Platinum or Real Estate is going to be Worthless. The hard asset prices are going to skyrocket. Unemployment is actually over 20% and rising. Industry is shutting down or moving overseas. Industries like Pharmaceuticals that continue to function in America are planning Huge layoffs. Public sector jobs are cutting staff to the bone. The U.S. is openly attempting to start a nuclear war with Russia. Israel is committing War Crimes and Genocide in Palestine. War has broken out ALL OVER the Middle East. The U.S. and European Media outlets are NOT reporting the Truth. This has been coming since 1913 when the Federal Reserve (a PRIVATE Bank) was established in the U.S. and took over the Treasury and the Money Supply. The Stock Market Crash of 1929 and WW2 are going to look like a birthday party compared to what’s coming in the next few weeks and months. If you have no Job, no more savings because it’s nearly worthless, You owe money on Mortgage payments and grocery prices double or triple how are you going to survive and keep your house? What You and the rest of the Family do is Your own business; I’m just being a decent Brother and warning My Brothers and Sisters of what’s just around the corner. My suggestion would be to pay off EVERYTHING, Especially Your Mortgage, asap and and take several thousand of those cheap dollars and purchase some Expensive Gold and Silver at dirt cheap prices right now before they put controls back on the rigged prices in London. BTW did You know that there is a second “City of London”? It’s the tiny one mile square financial district in the middle of London that is the heart of the British Empire. It’s called “Baby London” (Babylon the Great). if You know ANYTHING about the Bible stories where the Hell is Your Brain? Re Read Revelations, Forget the 501-c-3 JW Corporation!! Are You addicted to those Satanic Psychotropic Drugs You Take?. THINK!!!! The END of the World as You know it is Here!!!
Reply
 
 anonymous says:

 March 19, 2015 at 4:19 am

John Chapman, I don’t take the Bible all that seriously. Did you realize that Noah had to put unicorns on the ark???



Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 19, 2015 at 4:34 pm

Love that clip.
So, Thank You, “New World Order”!!! You didn’t even have the decency to lubricate first.
All that bad stuff MIGHT happen, provided the Earth itself survives that long. Don’t forget all the CRAP that we’ve been pumping into our environment 24/7 since the beginning of Industrialization about 150 years ago!!! And with more and more techno advances and overpopulation, it gets exponentially worse each day. Because, as you know, EVERYONE has just GOT to have a brand-new iPhone, iPad, iPod, etc., every year, drive around in a tank-like SUV or “mini”van, and fly out on 2 or 3 trips a year. And that’s just poor people. Never mind what the rich do! CFC’s are STILL around (jet aircraft, diesel engines, even gas i/c engines), and 1 CFC molecule can destroy 10,000 ozone molecules before being dissipated from the atmosphere!!! Think of every product you own and use. ALL of them have to be manufactured! This process, as well as the use and disposal of many of these things, cause environmental DAMAGE. I’m not trying to lay a guilt trip on anyone. I’m not exactly Amish either. But we need to smarten up and HIT THE BRAKES on production, not only of things, but people.
 When someone is sick, you don’t force them to go to work or run around the block. You give them TIME to recover. We need to give our planet Earth, our ONLY home, a BREAK!!!
 If we destroy our natural environment, we won’t have to worry about economic collapse, war, plague, or anything else. At least those catastrophes have survivors. If Earth goes, it’s Game Over.
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 19, 2015 at 11:36 pm

@ John Chapman
Thanx for the good advice.
 I would also recommend buying the SAS Survival Manual by John Wiseman, an AR15, and a backpack full of ammo. :) :) :)
Reply
 
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 19, 2015 at 9:57 pm

@ anonymous
When I get to the New System, I’ll have my very own Unicorn!!! Looking forward to that with great anticipation.
 A friend of mine once wondered if, in the “New System”, we’ll be able to breathe underwater.
 That’s so stupid. Everyone knows we’ll be way too busy using our X-Ray Vision.
Reply
 
 anonymous says:

 March 20, 2015 at 2:37 am

Neal, I was at my daughter’s house when we watched that video and we couldn’t believe it either but we looked up the scriptures in the King James and sure enough, they put unicorns in the Bible in quiet a few places, even in the King James that the Society printed. But what did you think about all the muzzles Noah would have had to make for all the poisonous snakes? If anybody with a brain watched that video, there is no way you could believe in the Ark story.
Reply
 
 Neal Krouni says:

 March 20, 2015 at 1:24 pm

I love Noah lamenting that his little pooper-scooper would be woefully inadequate.
 P.S.: It would also be woefully inadequate for shoveling all the BS in WT, the bible, and other “holy” books!!!
Reply
 
 
 

 Bad Penny says:

 March 21, 2015 at 8:57 am

John Chapman – great comment – scary!
 Yes, there is some serious stuff going on in the world.
 Anguish of nations not knowing the way out or what?
Neal and anonymous –
I asked a stuffy sister once if in the ‘New World’ all the men would have beards. ‘Oh, no my dear,’ she replied with certainty. ‘Pity’, I said, ‘it means some poor folks will have to manufacture a lot of razor blades whilst the rest of us are planting gardens!’
Crazy old watchtower world isn’t it??
Reply
 
 anonymous says:

 March 21, 2015 at 9:33 am

Bad Penny, I remember Witnesses saying that in the new order, that anybody who had died and got resurrected wouldn’t have kids. They’d talk like that as if it was a fact, whatever the Watchtower said was going to happen was the way it would happen.
When I’d hear stuff like that, I thought it was so presumptuous but I never put two and two together. I wished I had had the guts to speak up when I’d hear stuff like that then but I was such a wimp. Now, just the thought of stepping into a Kingdom Hall to speak up, is more than I can stomach.
Reply
 
 Neal Krouni says:

 March 21, 2015 at 12:39 pm

They’ll just kick you out or call the Cops.
 When a frontal assault doesn’t work, use guerrilla tactics. Be nasty.
Reply
 
 anonymous says:

 March 21, 2015 at 1:48 pm

Neal, today 2 of the elders came by to invite me to the Memorial and I unloaded on them again. I even said a couple times that I am surprised they haven’t disfellowshipped me yet but not yet anyway but I think they really think they can still “save” me. The thing is, I really love those guys and it kills me that they have to be so brainwashed and can’t comprehend a thing I say to them.
Reply
 
 
 
 

 Andrea says:

 April 18, 2015 at 5:48 pm

Hi, I was also an artistic child growing up as a JW and I understand what you mean about it being difficult. For me, it was hard to have a free mind inside a squared organization that practically imposed the way one should think, feel and behave. I wanted artistic friends so bad, but they all lead “evil” lives. How can you develop creativity when you live in a box full of nerds! But well, for margaret i guess it gave her hope. Some people just want to live lies, especially when that is all you know. It is not the same to enter the JW when you are old than to grow in it. I’m actually more concerned for her poor daughter.
Reply
 

 Rainbow says:

 May 16, 2015 at 1:02 am

She is a sweet lady. It sure seems celebrity insulates from to much drama surrounding you in the JWs. They want to keep you happy because you are so public. I am glad she is able to paint everyday still and had a opportunity to go to art school prior to becoming a JW. She has another identity to fall back on. Unfortunately, this does not “paint” the story of a child indoctrination from birth and not being able to express their own creativity, basically being stunted to what creativity is at all. Only knowing what is in their own limited world and having no identity.
Reply
 

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Big Eyes, Big Lies: Painter Margaret Keane and the Truth
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Posted on March 16, 2015

Big Eyes starring Amy Adams (left) tells the story of JW painter Margaret Keane (right) and the fraud that shook the art world
Big Eyes starring Amy Adams (left) tells the story of JW painter Margaret Keane (right) and the fraud that shook the art world

It wasn’t easy as a creative child growing up in a devout Jehovah’s Witness household. My early dreams of becoming an artist were squashed by the future forced upon me. According to my indoctrination the only real career outlet for young Witnesses was working for the Watchtower. And I had little interest in going to headquarters to paint scenes of a paradise earth for the rest of my life. I preferred giant robots.
As a child, I came to learn of popular artist Margaret Keane through her life-story, as printed in an old issue of Awake! (My Life As An Artist, July 8,1975, Awake!) It was captivating to read of a JW with a successful art career outside the walls of Brooklyn Bethel. Of course by the time she joined the sect, her worldwide fame as an artist was already well toward establishment. How she got there is a fascinating story that became the basis of Big Eyes, a 2014 film by Tim Burton.
In the 1960’s, Margaret’s husband, Walter, took the pop-art world by storm with a series of paintings of waifs with large, haunted eyes. These big-eyes became a cultural phenomenon through Keane’s savvy merchandising, leading to wealth and fame. The only problem was that he didn’t paint any of them. The actual artist was his wife Margaret, who slaved away in secret producing hundreds of big-eyed waifs.
The Stray by Margaret Keane, an example of her big-eyed waifs.
The Stray by Margaret Keane, an example of her big-eyed waifs.

Burton’s film captures the soul-crushing nature of the art fraud. It’s difficult to watch as the painter squanders her talent to fulfill the egotistical dreams of her husband. Margaret was unable to share her art with even her daughter. Friends were driven away lest they discover the scam.
Hope enters the film when Margaret, played by Amy Adams, and her daughter Jane escape to Hawaii. “It’s a paradise there,” Margaret tells Jane. It’s somewhat of a premonition that sets up a major turn. There, two smiling JW sisters greet her with bright blue Truth books. As Margaret describes in her Awake! account, “one knock on my door would drastically change my life.”
It’s one of Hollywood’s better-written Watchtower presentations. Usually movies get it wrong with Witnesses rattling on about the savior Jesus, flashing literature with crosses, or condemning people to hell. In the film, a Japanese woman in a floral print dress smiles and begins a pitch. “We have something to share with you about the wonderful things that God’s kingdom will do for mankind.” When Margaret mentions that she didn’t see much good in the world, the JW opens to 1 Timothy 3:1-5. “In the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here, for men will be lovers of themselves…” Those who have participated in the JW door-to-door ministry could probably take it from there without missing a beat.
Amy Adams with Margaret Keane, who is sporting a JW.org lapel badge, at the premiere of Big Eyes
Amy Adams with Margaret Keane, who is sporting a JW.org lapel badge, at the premiere of Big Eyes

Margaret is swayed by the Bible passage that seems to describe her manipulative husband to the letter. The painter hesitantly invites the women in. She is later shown reading the Truth book to her teenage daughter. “I just can’t believe you let people in the house,” quips the girl. Walter later wonders about his wife’s mental state in joining a group of “zealots” that wouldn’t let the girl go to the prom.
First published in 1968, "The Truth That Leads to Eternal Life" was the "Bible Teach" book of its day
First published in 1968, The Truth That Leads to Eternal Life was the “Bible Teach” book of its day

In the Awake! account Margaret describes her conversion in different terms. Raised a Methodist, she floated through a variety of Christian sects and dabbled in esoteric practices like astrology and numerology. When the JW’s knocked, she was learning about the Seventh Day Adventists but wondered about their teachings on the Sabbath. Margaret liked the Witnesses views on the matter, and she was baptized with her daughter in 1972.
Margaret and Jane were two of many that joined the religion in the period leading up to the failed 1975 end-of-the-world prediction. The Truth book that Margaret studied stated, “in fifteen years from today, this world is going to be too dangerous to live in.” (This quote was removed in the 1981 edition)
In the movie, Margaret embraces her new JW friends and decides to come clean about the painting scam. A humorous moment occurs when her daughter asks their new JW community, “What does Jehovah think about suing?”
The painter’s revelation leads into a humorous courtroom showdown between Margaret and Walter, in order to prove the real painter. During the trial, Walter acts as his own lawyer in an outrageous display of buffoonery. Actor Christoph Waltz’s performance has been criticized as campy and over-the-top. In reality it is toned-down from the actual transcripts. At one point the judge threatened to duct tape the man’s mouth shut. In a test worthy of the Biblical King Solomon, the judge calls for a paint off. (If only problems in the congregation could be settled in such a manner.)
The film ends with Margaret being vindicated (or is it sanctified?) as the true producer of the big eyes enterprise. She moves back to Hawaii and continues to paint. While the film ends here, in real-life her art takes a turn. The waifs lose theirs tears and are posed in saturated paradises with pet lions and tigers. If it weren’t for the over-sized eyes, it would be easy to mistake her work for Watchtower propaganda. One such painting was gifted and displayed at the Hawaiian Bethel.
A Margaret Keane painting
A Margaret Keane painting entitled “Paradise At Last”

When looking at her work it is easy to envision how external forces shaped her work. The saddened waifs seem to mirror her feelings while under the artistic oppression of her husband. The Watchtoweresque paradises serve as a proselytism tool. (I have to wonder if she cleverly used painting to fulfill the religion’s monthly ministry quota.)
In the Awake!, Margaret credits the religion for breaking her addiction to painting, increasing sales, and bestowing artistic superpowers. She says:

Another change has been that I spend only about a fourth of the time I formerly spent painting, and yet, amazingly, I accomplish almost the same amount of work. Too, sales and comments indicate that the paintings are getting even better. Painting used to be almost an obsession with me. I was driven to paint because it was my therapy, escape and relaxation—my life completely revolved around it. I still enjoy it immensely, but the addiction to it and dependency on it are gone. Since my growing in knowledge of Jehovah, the Source of all creativity, it is no wonder that the quality of my paintings has increased as the time of execution has decreased.
At 87, the artist remains active in her faith. In promotional junkets for the film, Margaret was photographed with a blue JW.ORG lapel pin. It has become the latest fashion accessory for devout JW’s to advertise their religion while on the go, and now the red carpet.
Since leaving the Jehovah’s Witness organization, I’ve finally been able to get back to art, first as a writer and now as a comic book creator. I can’t draw very well, but as a comic colorist I know how to stay between the lines. I’m no Margaret Keane, but I’m better than her ex-husband ever was.
I’ll be guesting (with Stache Publishing) at Midsouthcon 33; Memphis, TN, USA, March 20th -22nd. If you are planning on attending, stop by and say hello.

anthony-signature2

Anthony Mathenia is a journalist, novelist, and comic book creator. He has one published novel Paradise Earth: Day Zero.  Happiness, Next Exit, a JW romance, will be released later in 2015. His comic Pretty Face can be read at www.prettyfacecomic.com.
Follow Anthony on Twitter: @armathenia
 Visit Anthony’s website: www.anthonymathenia.com


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66 Responses to Big Eyes, Big Lies: Painter Margaret Keane and the Truth

 Happyface says:

 March 16, 2015 at 1:53 am

Alien-child hybrids. Awesome. Modern day nephilim, except small and cute?
Reply
 

 Excelsior! says:

 March 16, 2015 at 3:26 am

I didn’t know that this artist is a JW. What a sad tale this is. She replaced one domineering bully for another!
I never liked her art. It is creepy and sickly sweet.
Well done, sir, for getting out and pursuing your talents to their limits.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 

 Cecil B. Demented says:

 March 16, 2015 at 7:07 am

I’m actually now interested in seeing this movie. Tim Burton’s directed some awful stuff this last decade of so (and with Alice Through the Looking Glass and a CG version of Dumbo on the way it’s only going to get worse) but this might be interesting.
On an unrelated note I do hope you find time and/or resources to write further Paradise Earth novels. I found the first somewhat haunting and suspenseful and am hoping you have chance to finish the proposed trilogy as I’m fascinated to see how you envision post-Armageddon Earth.
Reply
 
 Anthony Mathenia says:

 March 16, 2015 at 8:54 am

Thanks. Paradise Earth: Week One is in the works. It’s my goal to complete it this year.
Reply
 
 

 anonymous says:

 March 16, 2015 at 7:23 am

I am with Excelsior. I never cared for her art either. She came into the “truth” when Watchtower was promising us all that Armageddon was coming in 1975. I was one of those too and I remember at the time, I didn’t really believe it but everybody was so hyped up about it that you didn’t even dare to question it or you’d be viewed as “apostate”. I remember that very well and when 1976 rolled around and nothing happened, the Society didn’t say a word about their failed prophecy. Then later, the Society said they never prophesied it and that it was all the rank and file’s fault. I remember it well and they lied, plan and simple. The Society promised us as a “fact” that Armageddon was coming in 1975. After that, they kept us all hanging on with the fear that at any moment now, the world is going to come to an end by Jehovah’s hand.
In the 1975 Awake article about Margaret Keane, it doesn’t even mention her name so I had no idea about her paintings but later, one time I was out in service and a sister was telling about these painting with the little girls with the big eyes and that the painter was a Witness. Because the Awake didn’t mention her name in the article, I didn’t believe the sister that the painter who painted the little kids with the big eyes, who was so popular at the time was a Witness. Nowadays, the Society would definitely put her name to the article, even though she had only been baptized 2 years at the time of the printing in the article in 1975 and had just gotten over the habit of smoking.
In the 1975 article, it mentioned that she tried to prove the Society wrong before she got baptized, by getting all kinds of Bibles etc. but could a person do that today after they got baptized? This woman was in her 50’s when she got baptized, but today most people are baptized as children and as young as 8. How are they able to prove one way or the other that the Watchtower is telling the real “truth” or not before getting baptized? How are they able to compare a whole bunch of different religions and compare their teachings to the Bible?
Why isn’t a person able to question whether the Watchtower is telling the truth or not today? Today, we have a lot more information at our fingertips then we did in the 1960’s, 1970’s, 1980’s or even the 1990’s. Today we can learn the real truth about 607 B.C.E. with the click of the mouse on our computer. Would Margaret Keane but just as convinced the Watchtower had the real “truth” if she had read “Gentile Times Reconsidered” before she got baptized?
Once you get baptized, you can kiss researching the Watchtower goodbye, unless you want to face a judicial committee for finding out that the Watchtower does nothing but tell lies. You are forbidden to tell another living soul about what you found or you will be kicked out and shunned by every person in your life. For Mrs. Keane to find out not at her age that she had been following a dangerous cult, would just about kill her I’d think. But she has led a life of wealth and I am sure that those in her congregation treats her like a movie star and all those that study with her, are studying with her because she’s famous and there’s plenty of people in this world who want to associate with famous people and will join with the Witnesses just for that reason and that reason alone.
Reply
 
 Neal Krouni says:

 March 16, 2015 at 2:39 pm

Add Prince and those tennis-playing “sisters” to the list of “celebrity” jw’s.
 Didn’t Jesus tell the rich man to sell all his belongings before he became a follower?
Reply
 
 Darlene says:

 March 16, 2015 at 8:04 pm

TOUCHE’
Reply
 
 

 Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:

 March 17, 2015 at 1:55 am

Armageddon is still there, coming soon… soon which has been preached since 1914….
“…Soon Jehovah will cause the political elements of Satan’s system, as represented by the United Nations, to attack false religion. They will destroy her influence and devastate her riches. Such an event may have seemed unlikely just decades ago. Today, the harlot teeters on the back of the scarlet-colored beast. Even so, she will not slip slowly from her seat. Her tumble will be sudden and violent.—Rev. 18:7, 8, 15-19.”
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/s/r1/lp-e?q=%22Soon+Jehovah+will+cause+the+political+elements%22&p=par
Reply
 

 Mara Jacobs-Proctor says:

 March 18, 2015 at 8:33 am

Hi, Just wanted to say that I really enjoyed reading your comments. You really ‘hit the nail on the head’.
I also was one of the ones who joined WT just before 1975. They managed to convince me to put my life on hold because the end was ‘nigh’ and somehow they got millions to continue doing that for decades. As you know, Anthony Morris just did a jwtv piece admonishing young ones to avoid college because ‘we are living deep into the time of the end.’ Day by day and inch by inch you lose the elements of what makes up a real life, waiting for what JWs call the real life-the new world. What a tragedy!
 I stopped meetings just a few months ago, and as word gets out, I have a fair amount of witnesses who want to know why. As you expressed, you are not allowed to explain why…or else! I know I will say more at some point. I want to. But right now I’m just trying to get my feet under me.
 The other thing I wanted to comment on was the celebrity adoration in WT. Hey! I thought we weren’t supposed to ‘exalt’ individuals. (Do birthdays ring a bell?) And if an active JW started pursuing an art career, that would be a no-no, but the WT is happy to use someone who did pursue this kind of career full bore. If it’s so wrong, why are they patting her on the back? I guess we all know the answer to that! Vincent DePorter said that he was working on ‘Scooby-Do’, with all its demons and spiritism, when he was a witness and no one said a thing. He said he thought it was because of the celebrity thing, and I know he’s right.
Reply
 
 

 Lesley Mitchell says:

 March 16, 2015 at 7:40 am

I can confirm that the 1968 Watchtower publication ‘The Truth that leads to Eternal Life” quotes from Dean Acheson who said “in fifteen years from today, this world is going to be too dangerous to live in.” It’s on page 9 and I’m looking at it. This was all part of the hype surrounding Watchtower expectations for October 1975. When nothing happened after October 1975, the Watchtower removed this quote.
Reply
 
 John Baptist says:

 March 16, 2015 at 8:22 am

“Stay alive in 75″ was the catch phrase back then. After listening to District overseers talks at the assembly’s prior to 1975 you are given such a clear urgency of “getting in before it’s to late”
What amazes me is to what extent in the years after that yet another failed prediction that the watchtower stated it was “Increased speculation by the friends” who caused all the hype.
 Have you ever known a organization that you can show by their own printed word that what they said and how wrong they were in saying it? Then flatly deny it and then blame it on their members. How ridiculous and common among those who think their right at any cost.
 The Governing body uses and loses people when they no longer fit their agenda.
 I wonder how much this woman has been duped out of her money by her devotion to this religion?
 My question is why would you sell your story and put yourself in the limelight associating with “Worldlings”
Oopps sorry I forgot their 2 sets of rules policies that dictates their every move in their favor.
I would feel embarrassed to ever have been known to be part of one of the biggest lies in the history of religion.
 For me the most notable thing in 1975 is I got my drivers license that year. Lol
Reply
 
 

 Excelsior! says:

 March 16, 2015 at 9:29 am

Folks, don’t forget the fallback position!
All the woe and cuddling of pandas was promised in the twentieth century!!!!
Woops! Blame it on the overzealous rank and file, not the numerous articles pre ’75, and dear old Freddy Franz’s talk at the assembly!!!
Those idiotic rank and file!!!! Fancy taking a specific date, spoken by a governing body member as……..a specific date spoken by a governing body member!!!
The WTBTS is busy destroying all reference to 1975. It is trying to control information in the Information Age! Good luck with that, you morons! Happily, all of the articles, and the talk by Freddie Franz, are available on the good old Internet!
Thanks for the comments about ’75. I was a very small child then, so I don’t really remember it.
The 1975 Scandal stands testament to the gullibility of human being’s, and just what can be accomplished by the use of cult mind control.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 
 Pickled brain says:

 March 16, 2015 at 10:05 am

The Yearbook Statistics 1970 to 1975 show a
 37%!!!! Yes 37 % !!!!! Increase in publishers!!
 The year 1977 shows -1% decrease & 1976 to 1980 shows over 5 years only a 2% increase!!
 The FACTS DON’T LIE. BUT the Governing Body does Lie!! Russell lied about when the end would come 1914 & 1915. Rutherfords lies were 1918& 1925 for the END & Franz big Lie was 1975!!!&
 The NEW GOverning Body LIES about Overlapping Generations!!! HOW MANY MORE LIES & WASTED LIVES ?????????????
Reply
 
 Pickled brain says:

 March 16, 2015 at 10:47 am

LIES, LIES & MORE Governing Body Lies!!
 Rutherford: 1935 !! The Door is now closed for the Anointed !’ Here come the Great Crowd!!!!
 ERMMM??!!! Mark Sanderson 50 years of age Born 1964. Anointed??!!!
 The Oldest Governing Body member Sam Herd or Gerrit Losch 79!! Born 1936 !! Not Baptised until 1950s !!!
 I smell something FISHY Here like 7 SHARKS wanting your money& time& energy & your Whole Life Wasted!!
Reply
 
 
 

 douglas philip says:

 March 16, 2015 at 11:08 am

Actually i find it interesting to se that what may be a burdon to some may be a safehaven to others …. Im a nonactive wittnes who has lost my faith in a religion that does not make sense to me anymore but i find it a bit sad that it has to be black or white about jw’s … For some it may be for good to belive and for others its not … The auther of this story found it to be a burdon but the artist mention by him found it just the other way around … Good for her :) really … Most of my familly are jw’s and i wouldnt try to force them to understand that it is not the truth as i see it … They belive and it gives them joy … I have to live my live the way i find it right to do but i wont take theire belives away from them just becouse i lost my on the way … Be negative as much as you want when there is something to be negative about but in this case the lady found what seemes to be a better life for her … Thats nothing to be negative about …
Sorry for my english its not my first language …
Take care Douglas
Reply
 
 John Baptist says:

 March 16, 2015 at 11:23 am

@Douglas I agree with you very much but where the problem lyes is when they tell you where your wrong(negative)) all the time. I get the if it works for you then great but for the rest of us just leave us alone and stop trying to push your man made policies on us that are masked by misapplied scriptures from average laymen.
 Instead they break down family unity and destroy families.
Reply
 
 douglas philip says:

 March 16, 2015 at 11:49 am

@john baptist
 Your right … Thats negative i think being able to embrace the positives more and then pointing out the negatives carefully and mention that that particularly is the reason for ones stand not to engage with the jw’s might take one futher in a conversation with any jw’s but ofcourse i might be wrong … I personally try not to be in opposition but to be neutral in my aproach and i wont neccesarily tell my own wiew off the matter and then i am able to speak with most off my relatives and jw friends and make them think … And people to day might be brought up to much worse cenarios then being baptised as teenager … What if your a muslim or bretheren or mormon or amish … At the end you decide for your own wich way in life to choose and your familly choose theirs … the deeply belive you dont and your familly breaks … Sad …. But unfortunetly thats life for many others the jw’s … I think that if we show them by our way of living and our example that they are not true bout us then sooner or later they might understand … Then again thats my wiew for now .. I might be wrong :)
 Thanks for your reply btw :)
 Cheers :)
Reply
 
 Pickled brain says:

 March 16, 2015 at 12:05 pm

@Douglas Philip. I’m sorry but I cannot agree . It is not as simple as your argument portrays. First of all prior to baptism your Study Conductor will not tell you the WHOLE HISTORY & FAILED PROPHECIES of the Organisation !!
 Secondly if you start JUST ASKING Questions about Governing Body policies or doctrines you will be ostracised ,shunned, pulled into the Backroom with the Elders.
 If their is a RESOLUTION & the congregation is asked to have a show of hands say for donating for a BRAND NEW Circuit overseers car every 3 years& you were the only one to oppose & shouted out why cant the circuit overseer cope with a 10 year old car like most of us & could that donation go to help a single mother with 4 children in the congregation!!! See what would Happen!!
Reply
 
 douglas philip says:

 March 16, 2015 at 2:06 pm

I know … And thats when you start questioning and end up picking your own path in life …. I agree that its not honest when they study with you not telling you everything but thats just bad luck getting involved with them :( life aint fair and it doesnt have to be … Think about it … If you didnt know what you know now you probably wouldt be in opposition …
But you dont have to be right up front to oppose … Its easy to withstand and obvious attack but reasoning on a neutral level like with one of your own … Thats a diference…. If you want to affect them you have to speak to them … Most of them will not look at any of your oppinions if your to obvious … But yeah thats just how i see it … I tried to question obviously and got a worried and supecious reply … So i stopd doing that and now im just dripping a drop from time to time and it works :) i got some to start thinking … And guess what … If they end up leaving it will be their own choice and they would maybe have done reeserch on their own i have allready wittnese’d that :)

 
 
 
 
 

 Ted says:

 March 16, 2015 at 2:47 pm

@douglas philip. Hi Douglas. I can understand how many
 JWs, might feel the org, is a “Safe Haven” but this is just an
 illusion.
It takes a long time, sometimes to the end of ones life for one
 to realise that it’s not been a sanctuary but a snare, a trap,
Ones who have devoted fully to it have had life’s potential
 sucked out of them just like the spider siphons all the juices
 from the fly.
A husband and wife S,Pioneer couple I knew ( both now dead )
 longed for children of their own, but put it off until the promised
 near at hand paradise. So even if the resurrection was a reality
 their hopes will still be dashed as the children of the resurrection
 neither marry or are given in marriage.
My own sister a 50 year plus JW, died a year ago, disappointed
 at unfulfilled promises. One of her last statements to me was
“Who would have thought I’d end up here, ( In the hospice.)
Add to this the many bright intelligent young people who have
 had their potential stifled and wasted their youth knocking on
 doors and in effect, just drawing others into the fly trap.
While I wouldn’t badger or pester my JW, relatives, I would,
 if the opportunity arises, try to expose the myth of the
“safe Haven”. Because I love them.
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 16, 2015 at 2:56 pm

@ douglas philip
I like your strategy. But it IS hard not to be negative toward WT, especially considering that born-ins or raised-ins barely have a choice. They are brainwashed as kids, by their parents, the elders, the congregation, and the GB, and all the literature. It’s hard to be neutral toward that, especially when you’ve been subjected to it. NO ONE likes to be lied to, intimidated, and manipulated. It simply goes against basic human nature. By the way, my comments apply to EVERY religion. It’s just that the JWs are the worst, hence truly a CULT!!!
Reply
 
 Darlene says:

 March 16, 2015 at 8:08 pm

ABSOLUTELY AGREE 100%!
Reply
 
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 16, 2015 at 3:07 pm

@ Pickled brain
Yes, I think everyone agrees that the “overlapping generation” doctrine is the most inane, ridiculous, unfounded, nonsensical, illogical, idiotic, and just plain STUPID teaching in the history of mankind!!!
Reply
 

 Ted says:

 March 16, 2015 at 4:55 pm

@Pickled brain. Lies, lies and more is right. it’s even absurd
 the way they pick these young kids out of thin air and how they
 just happen to be of the anointed. Legerdemain ! they’ve got
 more tricks than Harry Houdini.
Mark Sanderson 60, goodness me! my sons older than him
 and I, though older than any gb, member, would not qualify
 on the1935 deadline ( another piece of chicanery) !
 being just a youngster back then.
It’s always struck me as being the result of a, Gigantic Ego
 plus religious delusion, claiming that some all powerful creator
 has personally selected you to rule over everything he’s ever
 created. Or as you say P,B, it could be “Lies lies and more”.
And this for personal advantage.
Reply
 
 Neal Krouni says:

 March 16, 2015 at 9:25 pm

Believe it or not, there’s a 40-year-old guy in my mother’s cong who claims he’s “anointed,” and everyone accepts it, including Steroid Boy, the “overseer.” Believe it or not, the guy’s name is Ted! Small world!! :)
Reply
 
 

 Andrew Krzynowek says:

 March 16, 2015 at 7:28 pm

Good write up Anthony, I had no idea she was a dub, I’ll definitely check out the film.
Reply
 
 Anthony Mathenia says:

 March 21, 2015 at 3:17 pm

Thanks Andrew. It was panned, but I enjoyed it. No Depp or Bonham-Carter.
Reply
 
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 16, 2015 at 9:37 pm

In their own way, the GB is pretty clever. Thanks to the “Overlapping Generation” doctrine, they found a way to cover their butts ad infinitum. The “End” could come tomorrow, next month, a million, billion, trillion, gazillion years from now. Obviously, EVERY generation overlaps the previous one. It could go on forever (shudder). No more deadlines, failed predictions, or magical calculations. Only a flock of blind sheep following and obeying unquestioningly.
Reply
 

 Man from the lions pit says:

 March 16, 2015 at 9:45 pm

Good job Anthony on this article & film review!
 I should watch the movie one day.Many of my JW friends have done so and were excited about it, some of them are professional artist as well.I do have also partial art education and paint myself on/off. Best wishes !
Reply
 

 John Z says:

 March 16, 2015 at 11:38 pm

I am new to the other side of the fence so to speak. I saw the movie and think it’s sad WT was better than her husband.
I was born into this snare and so was my wife. I deep down always rejected some of the WTBTS B.S. My father a new convert before the door didn’t close in 1975 worked up the ladder to be a big Elder. His favourite thing to do still to this day is disfellowship people. What a sick bastard!
He used to beat me senseless to get me to “behave” like sitting perfectly still and quiet. If I didn’t, I would be hauled to the back and given a licking in the bathroom or second school and of course way more severely at home after.
I am still traumatised by his actions but I was not alone, many of my friends were in a similar situation. Some of my witness friends were beaten with belts, sticks or other weapons! My parents stopped using a small club after my non witness grandparents threatened to call child protection services.
Over all I would say my childhood was not all bad but when I had a child of my own last year my wife and I researched the WTBTS material from the 70’s and 80’s and was sickend to see that they sanctioned physical abuse to get your children to behave.
I am now, after much anguish preparing to fade away from this hell! Save my family from this cult. Thank God for Ray Franz, the person who leaked the elder book, and all of you courageous individuals who do what you can to impede this powerful tool of Satan, The Watchtower!
I’m so glad to at least have your support and a place to openly talk about the damage done in the name of God. These sick twisted power hungry men will one day come to an end!
P.S. Overlapping generation lol. Soon it will be the people that knew the people that knew the people. Let’s destroy these clowns!
Reply
 
 Pickled brain says:

 March 17, 2015 at 12:16 am

The ‘GENERATION ‘ doctrine of Matthew ch.24!!!
 How did JESUS define the length of ‘Generation ‘??
Well Governing Body I don’t need to be spirit directed ???to work it out!!
 JESUS uttered the prophecy in 33 C.E. & guess what just as every dictionary definition says a length of a Generation is about 30 or 40 years.
 The fulfilment of Jesus prophecy came in 70 C.E when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem..37 years later!!! YES a Generation was 37 years later.
 Now either this prophecy had one fulfilment or the GB have got the start of Last Days WRONG.!
 Is 1914? As beginning of Last Days correct ? Is the interpretation of Daniels ‘7 Times’ correct??
 The GB have changed so many Spirit Directed?? Interpretations dozens of times e.g. 1874,1878,1910,1914,1915,1918,1925,1942,1975,
 1994(Generation of 70 or 80 years ran out) ,etc
 Change on who GOG is;who Sheep&Goats are;Even who Faithful&Discreet Slave are; Organ Transplants;Vaccinations;Blood Fractions; Superior Authorities of Romans ch.13; Start of Great Tribulation was 1914 , now in the future; Pyramid of GIZA was Gods Stone witness and foretold 1874 as Beginning of Jesus Presence; then Rutherford(Apparently GB member) decides GIZA is from Satan in 1927!! Sodom&Gomorrah men are going to be resurrected & then not & yes they are& then no they’re not !!Need I go on ?? Etc,Etc
 I could relate Dozens more FLIP FLOPS like Is Oral Sex acceptable in marriage or is it Not ??
 Welcome to The CRAZY,CRAZY World of the GB!!
Reply
 
 Pickled brain says:

 March 17, 2015 at 1:13 am

‘NEW LIGHT ‘ Anyone ??,just to add to my last comment!!
 I see New Light!! My prophecy is the Governing Body WILL have to do a U-Turn on their Child Abuse Policies because it is getting TOO EXPENSIVE for them .Finances& Public Outcry& the Courts will make the Governing Body have More ‘New Light’ & we will see Changes. I Guarantee there will be an Article in a Watchtower but worded in such a way to Exonerate the GB from all blame.
 A small sign is the letter read out last year saying circuit overseers will appoint New Elders& Ministerisland servants instead of Bethel is CRAFTY because any new Elders & MS committing Sex Crimes appointed by Circuit Overseers means it’s these men can be sued instead of Bethel !!
 The Letter read out said it was biblically based but why change the way men are appointed after 90 years because it was Rutherfords idea to appoint men so he could have complete control!!But in those days Litigation wasn’t a problem. BROOKLYN always changes if Finances are involved!!
Reply
 
 Pickled brain says:

 March 17, 2015 at 1:39 am

When JESUS said ‘This Generation ‘ it is just ONE GENERATION not overlapping !!Matthew defines it in
 Matthew ch.1v17 . Read carefully Abraham to David 14 Generations; David until deportation to Babylon 14 Generations; 14 more Generations until CHRIST. Therefore each Generation could be no longer than a lifespan of ONE Single Person .Jesus didn’t say in Matthew 24v34 ‘THESE Generations’ BUT ‘THIS!!Generation’ SINGULAR!!
 So 8 Million have been HOODWINKED & CONNED just as those who in RUSSELLS day thought they were going to Heaven in 1914!!
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 17, 2015 at 8:58 am

Money talks.
Reply
 
 
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 17, 2015 at 9:01 am

@ John Z
Re: “Let’s destroy these clowns!”
Amen!
 You have my FULL support!!!
Reply
 

 Mara Jacobs-Proctor says:

 March 18, 2015 at 9:06 am

Hi John Z, It made me tear up to read about how you were regularly beat up as a child. My son is 31 and I remember in those times, if you didn’t beat your kid silly, you were the subject of disdain and gossip in the congregation. You were considered a bad parent in WT world. I remember realizing about 15 years ago that my son paid the price for me trying to get the approval of the friends by spanking him at the slightest provocation! But I still remained in the cult. Thankfully, both my son and myself are out now. And amazingly, my son doesn’t hold a thing against me, although I wouldn’t blame him if he did! He knows what can happen when you’re under the spell of mind control.
 And yes, Ray was such a courageous man and indeed thank God for him and others who have had the strength to stand up for what is right!
 I will be thinking of you and your family as you ‘fade’. It isn’t easy, but then again, nothing in life that is truly worthwhile is! Best wishes.
Reply
 
 Mara Jacobs-Proctor says:

 March 18, 2015 at 9:39 am

P.S., And John Z, Just wanted to add something. I remember back in the 70’s seeing a young mother lay a baby on the changing table at the hall and spanking this 7 mos. or so child! I was appalled at the time, but ashamed to say I didn’t say anything. All I can say is that it was considered fine and normal due to WT teaching at that time, but my gut would disagree sometimes. This is evidenced by how the friends would just sit there and continue reading and commenting at meetings whilst a screaming,young child was being beaten in the back room-as if nothing was amiss!
 Hope my previous post didn’t sound like I was making an excuse for your dad with the mind control comment. Sounds like your dad went the extra mile with the corporal punishment. But all I can say is that WT mind control definitely played a large part in how the average parent ‘disciplined’ their kids. Its not an excuse, but it is a reason. Thank God you’ve realized this and your child won’t have to suffer the same abuse.
 Take Care,
 Mara
Reply
 
 
 

 Charles Costante says:

 March 17, 2015 at 2:36 am

“Some of my witness friends were beaten with belts, sticks or other weapons! My parents stopped using a small club after my non witness grandparents threatened to call child protection services.”
That’s terrible, John Z! I can sympathise because my father used to use a leather razor strap on me (the fifties and sixties). I don’t know what the Watchtower Society’s policy is now, but not ‘sparing the rod’ was the order of the day back then.
Corporal punishment of children by parents is now banned in 44 countries.
Reply
 

 Ted says:

 March 17, 2015 at 6:01 am

@Neal Krouni. A 40 year old “Heavenly Ted”, in your mothers
 Cong. Gave me a good laugh.
It’s a good job Armageddon didn’t come, as predicted in. 75
 the year he was born or he would he would have missed out
 on his celestial mansion, ( Are they bricks and mortar by the
 way ? )
Maybe that’s why God hung back in 75, the elite wasn’t complete
 without young Ted and the other late comers. I’m confused!
Reply
 
 Neal Krouni says:

 March 17, 2015 at 9:05 am

I call him Cloud Boy.
Reply
 
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 17, 2015 at 9:25 am

So I remember a documentary on the early days of the Nazi party. What was so interesting was that things like the swastika, the “Heil” salute, even Crazy Adolf’s little mustache, were not random choices. They were very carefully thought-out and planned. As far as Germany and the Nazis go, the swastika was totally irrelevant. In fact, it originated in India, and swastika is a Sanskrit word meaning, essentially, “well-being”. The Nazis chose it because it was unique, no one had ever seen it before, it would catch the eye, and it would stand out in people’s minds. People who do things like that, do so INTENTIONALLY and KNOWINGLY. There’s nothing random about it. They don’t just sit around over margarita’s, spitballing ideas. It may start out that way, but it evolves into a SYSTEM, a METHODOLOGY.
Reply
 

 Ted says:

 March 17, 2015 at 10:45 am

Margaret Keane States, her painting is no longer an obsession,
 or addiction. She puts this down to increased knowledge of
 JHVH, this has the ring of wt, hype. The main thing they want
 You to be obsessive about is door knocking, not developing
 the talents you were born with.
I would encourage anyone with a special ability, not to be
 influenced negatively by her comments. Obsession is not
 always bad, it’s brought her wealth and success, and as she
 admits painting was an enjoyment, even a therapy.
Her obsession has produced something tangible that many have
 and do enjoy ( apparently not everyone though ).
 Following the wt, obsession produces Zilch, unless a string of
 empty promises and false expectations count for anything.
Reply
 

 rob says:

 March 17, 2015 at 12:33 pm

It is clear that what is expected of a person who becomes a witness – leave behind all sense of who you are and become a clone.
 Forget your talents, forget your strengths, and just follow the leaders blindly and put all your trust in these leaders.
 They will change doctrine and implement new rules at will and will tell you to do things that seem unreasonable from a human standpoint – but you must follow them.
 If you chose to disagree you will be shunned and your family and friends will no longer consider you to be a human being worthy of love or kindness.
Reply
 

 Ted says:

 March 17, 2015 at 4:11 pm

Margaret Keane has obviously been affected by wt, aura the
 feeling that God is personally influencing and affecting her
 life and actions.
She states.”Since my growing in knowledge of JHVH, the
 source of all creativity it is no wonder that the quality of my
 paintings has increased”. She also claims her output has not
 diminished even though she spends less time on it.
I know this feeling very well. When I first began to study in 58
 I used to play the horses and I had an amazing run of luck, of
 course I put this down to the fact that I was taking an interest in
 the Bible, and that God was picking the gee gees for me.
Back then I was a naive impressionable young guy.
 Margaret’s not young , but I venture the the thought, that she is
 naive, guileless, childlike, like the wide eyed children she paints.
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 18, 2015 at 12:00 am

“God save us from Your followers!!!”
Reply
 

 JJ says:

 March 18, 2015 at 4:34 am

The movie, Big Eyes, brought out the fact that no one in the art world liked Margaret Keane’s paintings. I know that I certainly don’t.
 I first learned about Margaret Keane back in the early ’90’s because the Canadian Bethel has a couple of her paintings up in the hallway near the tunnel. It is all big eyed animals on Noah’s Ark. I hated them!
 If it wasn’t for her ‘abusive husband’ then Margaret would still be drawing $5 portraits in the park, where she belongs! He was the person who did all the work of selling and promoting really bad art. I feel like the gallery owner who was across the street from the Keane’s gallery; that owner just couldn’t believe anyone would be interested in that “art”.
Why didn’t Jehovah give Margaret some talent when she became a JW?!?
 (Maybe I’m being a little too harsh with the woman but she has overdone it with those huge eyes. Move on to a better period in your art-life Margaret!)
Reply
 

 Ted says:

 March 18, 2015 at 9:31 am

Margaret is 87 years old, and at this point in her life
 things seem to be going well for her and she is. happy
 and content. One can only be glad on her behalf.
To attribute the good patches in ones life to the influence
 of a benevolent God though, is just ancient superstition.
 It’s part of the dualistic thinking,- God and Satan, good
 and evil.
This concept itself has resulted in much cruelty. In every
 war, God is on your side, the others are the demons, so
 providing an excuse for all kinds of atrocities. ( Look no
 further than the Bible itself for proof of this.)
The wt, exploits this idea to the maximum allowed by law.
 All who do not conform to the regime or accept their
 constantly changing dogma , are the apostates the Devil’s
 disciples, the walking dead.
The myth is used to create fear in others, forcing them to
 renounce and spurn even their own flesh and blood.
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 18, 2015 at 10:53 am

@ JJ
It calls to mind another JW “celebrity”, Prince. I never cared for his music, either. Never understood what the big deal was. Once he went up to accept an “award”, dressed in stockings and high heels. Woopdeedoo. Am I supposed to be impressed? And why do all these holy bigshots still cling to their fortunes?? Didn’t Jesus tell the rich man to sell all his belongings and give to the poor before he could be his follower???
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 18, 2015 at 10:58 am

@ Ted
I’m sure Margaret Keane IS content. It’s easy when there’s nothing going on upstairs. :) :) :)
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 18, 2015 at 11:42 am

So I recently took a stroll down memory lane, and recalled a couple fun stories from my personal experience in that wacky fairyland known as Watchtower.
 When I was about 13, a “ministerial servant” asked me if I was willing to study with a couple of younger kids in the cong. I said OK. This guy was Austrian, and some called him “The Fuehrer”, for reasons you shall see. He looked kind of like Patrick Stewart, and when he went up to give a talk, he would assume “the stance”, spreading his legs, and placing his hands authoritatively on either side of the podium, as if to say, “I have the Con.” Anyway, for some reason I mentioned the study thing to my mother, and she said I should run it by our book study conductor, an “elder”, since those kids were not in our own book study group, whatever difference that would make. So the next time Captain Picard approached me about it, I said I would get permission from my book study conductor first. This guy’s face immediately turned BEET RED, and he said, in his deep Austrian voice, “ARE YOU QUESTIONING MY AUTHORITY???” Keep in mind, I was 13 years old!!! I’m sure my jaw dropped. It was like seeing a vision out of Revelation. Never before or since have I seen anyone’s face turn that color.
 My idiot brother-in-law (who’s now an “elder”, like my fool brother BTW), once told a story about a “circuit overseer” visit. In his opening remarks to the cong, regarding himself and his wife dining at “brothers'” homes, he said something like, ‘We look forward to your hospitality this week, but please don’t feed us tuna. We’re not cats’. OK, maybe he was offered a lot of tuna in the past, but Hey, a**hole, you’re getting a Free Lunch everywhere you go, and now you’re complaining??? – Imagine buying some homeless guy a sandwich, and then having him complain it’s not the kind he likes. I would just take it back.
 One “circuit overseer” we had was a real piece of work. His name was Thorston Splett, and he always wore a bow tie. In his opening remarks, regarding himself and his wife, he said, “Don’t be afraid of us. We’re people like you. We’re human.” REALLY??? WOOOW!!!!! So I can stop pissing my pants whenever I see you coming, with your little bow tie? Jackass.
Reply
 
 JJ says:

 March 18, 2015 at 4:19 pm

Hey Neal, someone once said something, off-the-cuff, but it made a lot of sense to me (this guy wasn’t a JW);
“Guys that wear bow ties usually are weirdos and are looking for attention”.
I immediately found what he said was the truth.
Reply
 
 

 rob says:

 March 18, 2015 at 3:58 pm

I always found it amazing that witnesses tended to put the circuit overseers on a pedestal and always ensured to attend all meetings during their visit. To me it really seemed like the witnesses idolized the COs the DOs and The GB. What is more amazing to me is that it appears that these men enjoy the attention and the power that is bestowed upon them by the rank and file.
Reply
 
 Neal Krouni says:

 March 19, 2015 at 4:08 pm

For sure!!!
Reply
 
 

 John Chapman says:

 March 19, 2015 at 3:10 am

ALL of the published financial numbers like Stock prices, Commodities prices, Housing prices, Inflation, Unemployment and Interest rates are rigged and have no basis in reality. Gold and Silver futures (paper transactions) out strip Gold and Silver supplies by over 100 to 1. 90% of American Gold and Silver has been shipped to India, China and the Middle East to pay on the Governments debt. Gold and Silver prices are set by the London Gold exchange and they are artificially holding down Gold and Silver prices by faking the numbers so THEY can purchase Our Gold and Silver cheaply. Bottom line: The dollar is going to crash like the Titanic and anything you have in your savings or retirement that is not actual Gold, Silver, Platinum or Real Estate is going to be Worthless. The hard asset prices are going to skyrocket. Unemployment is actually over 20% and rising. Industry is shutting down or moving overseas. Industries like Pharmaceuticals that continue to function in America are planning Huge layoffs. Public sector jobs are cutting staff to the bone. The U.S. is openly attempting to start a nuclear war with Russia. Israel is committing War Crimes and Genocide in Palestine. War has broken out ALL OVER the Middle East. The U.S. and European Media outlets are NOT reporting the Truth. This has been coming since 1913 when the Federal Reserve (a PRIVATE Bank) was established in the U.S. and took over the Treasury and the Money Supply. The Stock Market Crash of 1929 and WW2 are going to look like a birthday party compared to what’s coming in the next few weeks and months. If you have no Job, no more savings because it’s nearly worthless, You owe money on Mortgage payments and grocery prices double or triple how are you going to survive and keep your house? What You and the rest of the Family do is Your own business; I’m just being a decent Brother and warning My Brothers and Sisters of what’s just around the corner. My suggestion would be to pay off EVERYTHING, Especially Your Mortgage, asap and and take several thousand of those cheap dollars and purchase some Expensive Gold and Silver at dirt cheap prices right now before they put controls back on the rigged prices in London. BTW did You know that there is a second “City of London”? It’s the tiny one mile square financial district in the middle of London that is the heart of the British Empire. It’s called “Baby London” (Babylon the Great). if You know ANYTHING about the Bible stories where the Hell is Your Brain? Re Read Revelations, Forget the 501-c-3 JW Corporation!! Are You addicted to those Satanic Psychotropic Drugs You Take?. THINK!!!! The END of the World as You know it is Here!!!
Reply
 
 anonymous says:

 March 19, 2015 at 4:19 am

John Chapman, I don’t take the Bible all that seriously. Did you realize that Noah had to put unicorns on the ark???



Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 19, 2015 at 4:34 pm

Love that clip.
So, Thank You, “New World Order”!!! You didn’t even have the decency to lubricate first.
All that bad stuff MIGHT happen, provided the Earth itself survives that long. Don’t forget all the CRAP that we’ve been pumping into our environment 24/7 since the beginning of Industrialization about 150 years ago!!! And with more and more techno advances and overpopulation, it gets exponentially worse each day. Because, as you know, EVERYONE has just GOT to have a brand-new iPhone, iPad, iPod, etc., every year, drive around in a tank-like SUV or “mini”van, and fly out on 2 or 3 trips a year. And that’s just poor people. Never mind what the rich do! CFC’s are STILL around (jet aircraft, diesel engines, even gas i/c engines), and 1 CFC molecule can destroy 10,000 ozone molecules before being dissipated from the atmosphere!!! Think of every product you own and use. ALL of them have to be manufactured! This process, as well as the use and disposal of many of these things, cause environmental DAMAGE. I’m not trying to lay a guilt trip on anyone. I’m not exactly Amish either. But we need to smarten up and HIT THE BRAKES on production, not only of things, but people.
 When someone is sick, you don’t force them to go to work or run around the block. You give them TIME to recover. We need to give our planet Earth, our ONLY home, a BREAK!!!
 If we destroy our natural environment, we won’t have to worry about economic collapse, war, plague, or anything else. At least those catastrophes have survivors. If Earth goes, it’s Game Over.
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 19, 2015 at 11:36 pm

@ John Chapman
Thanx for the good advice.
 I would also recommend buying the SAS Survival Manual by John Wiseman, an AR15, and a backpack full of ammo. :) :) :)
Reply
 
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 19, 2015 at 9:57 pm

@ anonymous
When I get to the New System, I’ll have my very own Unicorn!!! Looking forward to that with great anticipation.
 A friend of mine once wondered if, in the “New System”, we’ll be able to breathe underwater.
 That’s so stupid. Everyone knows we’ll be way too busy using our X-Ray Vision.
Reply
 
 anonymous says:

 March 20, 2015 at 2:37 am

Neal, I was at my daughter’s house when we watched that video and we couldn’t believe it either but we looked up the scriptures in the King James and sure enough, they put unicorns in the Bible in quiet a few places, even in the King James that the Society printed. But what did you think about all the muzzles Noah would have had to make for all the poisonous snakes? If anybody with a brain watched that video, there is no way you could believe in the Ark story.
Reply
 
 Neal Krouni says:

 March 20, 2015 at 1:24 pm

I love Noah lamenting that his little pooper-scooper would be woefully inadequate.
 P.S.: It would also be woefully inadequate for shoveling all the BS in WT, the bible, and other “holy” books!!!
Reply
 
 
 

 Bad Penny says:

 March 21, 2015 at 8:57 am

John Chapman – great comment – scary!
 Yes, there is some serious stuff going on in the world.
 Anguish of nations not knowing the way out or what?
Neal and anonymous –
I asked a stuffy sister once if in the ‘New World’ all the men would have beards. ‘Oh, no my dear,’ she replied with certainty. ‘Pity’, I said, ‘it means some poor folks will have to manufacture a lot of razor blades whilst the rest of us are planting gardens!’
Crazy old watchtower world isn’t it??
Reply
 
 anonymous says:

 March 21, 2015 at 9:33 am

Bad Penny, I remember Witnesses saying that in the new order, that anybody who had died and got resurrected wouldn’t have kids. They’d talk like that as if it was a fact, whatever the Watchtower said was going to happen was the way it would happen.
When I’d hear stuff like that, I thought it was so presumptuous but I never put two and two together. I wished I had had the guts to speak up when I’d hear stuff like that then but I was such a wimp. Now, just the thought of stepping into a Kingdom Hall to speak up, is more than I can stomach.
Reply
 
 Neal Krouni says:

 March 21, 2015 at 12:39 pm

They’ll just kick you out or call the Cops.
 When a frontal assault doesn’t work, use guerrilla tactics. Be nasty.
Reply
 
 anonymous says:

 March 21, 2015 at 1:48 pm

Neal, today 2 of the elders came by to invite me to the Memorial and I unloaded on them again. I even said a couple times that I am surprised they haven’t disfellowshipped me yet but not yet anyway but I think they really think they can still “save” me. The thing is, I really love those guys and it kills me that they have to be so brainwashed and can’t comprehend a thing I say to them.
Reply
 
 
 
 

 Andrea says:

 April 18, 2015 at 5:48 pm

Hi, I was also an artistic child growing up as a JW and I understand what you mean about it being difficult. For me, it was hard to have a free mind inside a squared organization that practically imposed the way one should think, feel and behave. I wanted artistic friends so bad, but they all lead “evil” lives. How can you develop creativity when you live in a box full of nerds! But well, for margaret i guess it gave her hope. Some people just want to live lies, especially when that is all you know. It is not the same to enter the JW when you are old than to grow in it. I’m actually more concerned for her poor daughter.
Reply
 

 Rainbow says:

 May 16, 2015 at 1:02 am

She is a sweet lady. It sure seems celebrity insulates from to much drama surrounding you in the JWs. They want to keep you happy because you are so public. I am glad she is able to paint everyday still and had a opportunity to go to art school prior to becoming a JW. She has another identity to fall back on. Unfortunately, this does not “paint” the story of a child indoctrination from birth and not being able to express their own creativity, basically being stunted to what creativity is at all. Only knowing what is in their own limited world and having no identity.
Reply
 

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What is JWsurvey’s approach to science, religion and the bible?
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Posted on March 19, 2015

Religious neutrality is an essential element of JWsurvey
Religious neutrality is an essential element of JWsurvey

Frequent visitors to JWsurvey will be familiar with this website’s posting guidelines for comments, which include the following rule regarding religious neutrality: “Do not post comments that are evangelical in nature or may be construed as imposing one person’s religious beliefs (or lack thereof) over those of another.”
I firmly believe that religious neutrality is one of the most important elements of the work we do here on JWsurvey. It is crucial that visitors to this website, especially those who are currently Jehovah’s Witnesses (or who are struggling with JW indoctrination) do not feel that they are being preached to or ushered towards some alternative set of beliefs.
I know a lack of restraint in this area turned me away from so-called “apostate” sites when I made a brief online foray years ago while still a Witness. I wanted to see whether I could find any meaningful arguments against Watchtower teachings. Instead I was confronted by websites urging me towards born-again Christianity – which only reaffirmed my suspicions about “apostates.”
I can similarly remember recoiling a little when, in an email conversation with Paul Grundy of JWfacts.com back in 2011 (when I was midway through waking up), I learned that he was atheist. Though I was still in the process of figuring out what my own beliefs were at that stage, I couldn’t help but feel dejected that someone as knowledgeable as Paul had concluded that there isn’t a God after all.
As it turns out, I myself am now atheist regarding theism (the existence of the God of the bible) and agnostic regarding deism (the concept of some intelligent, creative force behind the universe).* But I can well imagine how such a position would be a stumbling block for a Jehovah’s Witness searching for some kind of common ground with former members.
This is why JWsurvey’s religious neutrality policy is supremely important. Visitors need to feel that they can view objective information about Jehovah’s Witnesses and their beliefs without being preached to, or coerced to ditch their belief in God entirely.
But religious neutrality only really works if it is tempered by secularism, defined by one dictionary as “the belief that religion should not play a role in government, education, or other public parts of society.” Why do I say this? Because most (if not all) religions are mutually exclusive.
For example, you cannot subscribe to both Islam and Hinduism, or both Judaism and Christianity. Religion by its very nature is contentious. Religious beliefs compete with and exclude one another. Only by assuming a secular position, namely that no one religion is more true or untrue than another, can there be real tolerance and religious plurality – a respect for the diversity of religious views, including the right to have no religious views at all.
Accepting science
Secularism also insists that religion and education should be kept separate. I have already written a handful of articles touching on the subject of evolution, and on each occasion I have unashamedly taken the position that evolution is not just a “theory” but a scientific, observable fact. Accepting evolution is not a religious or even an atheist position – it is a scientific one, regardless of what Watchtower says.
There is no reason to feel ashamed of our kinship with other living things through evolution
There is no reason to reject our kinship with other living things through evolution

You CAN be both religious and accept that living things evolve gradually over time. Those who claim that life doesn’t evolve are usually trying to assert their religious views, often inherited (at least in part) from their parents, and/or are ignorant as to what evolution actually is and how it works.
If you deny evolution but embrace other areas of scientific discovery, perhaps even benefiting from them in day-to-day life, this could be considered “cherry-picking.” You would be embracing only those scientific discoveries that conveniently suit your world view, and discarding those that don’t. Of course, you are entitled to do this if it makes you feel happier and more fulfilled in life, but you cannot expect this website to censor itself to conform to such a distorted approach.
When I (or others) write about evolution we are not disrespecting a creationist’s beliefs any more than Galileo was disrespecting the Catholic church by insisting that the earth rotates around the sun rather than the opposite being the case. We are merely telling it like it is. Whether you choose to believe in God or not remains absolutely your decision and right.
The bible and prophecy
I found myself caught in a dilemma recently when filming my rebuttal to the latest JW Broadcasting episode, in which Gerrit Lösch argued for the reliability and authenticity of bible prophecy. I could have merely retorted (as I did) that it is perfectly possible to believe in the bible’s authenticity and not believe, as Jehovah’s Witnesses do, that unless you bow to the authority of seven men in New York you will join billions in being slaughtered at Armageddon.
But this argument on its own seemed rather hollow, especially when the elephant in the room was the fact that the bible is NOT a book of prophecy – it merely purports to be one.


I therefore pointed my viewers to the fact that most scholars agree that Daniel was not written in the 6th Century BC but much later, some time in the 2nd Century BC – decades after many of the events it “prophesied” took place.
It can never be asserted definitively that this is so (because no one actually saw the book being written), but neither can it be asserted that the book of Daniel was written by Daniel himself while in Babylonian exile.
Watchtower relies on general ignorance regarding the work of bible scholars like Bart Ehrman
Watchtower relies on general ignorance regarding the work of bible scholars like Bart Ehrman

Why? Because the character of Daniel, a senior court official, would not have incorrectly named the line of Babylonian/Persian rulers of Babylon. (Try researching “Darius the Mede.”) He would at least have got it right with their names, even if he could be forgiven for getting it wrong about the fate of Antiochus Epiphanes in Daniel 11 (who wasn’t to die until the 2nd Century BC, apparently after Daniel was written).
Then there was the problem of messianic prophecy, also raised by Lösch as an argument for the bible’s authenticity. How does one bring up the awkward fact that it’s highly likely at least one “prophecy” (the virgin birth) was inspired by a mistranslation of the original Hebrew in the Greek Septuagint?
My only solution was to run the gauntlet and do it anyway, but as respectfully as possible – all the while acknowledging that it is the absolute right of people to believe that the bible is inspired, but not to expect others to believe likewise.
You can claim, for example, that Jesus really was born of a virgin, but this can never be a historical or scientific claim – it can only ever be a religious claim. The same applies to the Hebrew Scriptures (or Old Testament). You can believe that the events from Adam and Eve to King Saul really happened if you like, but good luck trying to find a shred of archeological evidence to prove anything in the bible narrative from earlier than King David.
Or to put it another way – if 2.5 million Israelites really did spend 40 years meandering across the Sinai desert some time in the 13th/14th Century BC, sacrificing animals, waging war and observing rituals along the way, they apparently managed this feat without leaving behind so much as a toothpick for archeologists to uncover. (If you didn’t know this already, don’t take my word for it – do the research for yourself.)
Religion is a choice
This is why religion will always be, not unquestionable truth, but a choice.
You, dear reader, have the absolute right to decide what you believe or don’t believe; what evidence or scholarly consensus you accept or dismiss. Anyone who tries to take this right away from you should feel ashamed of themselves. But this does not mean that I, as a writer and speaker, must skirt around scientific fact and scholarly consensus as though these things are irrelevant or somehow taboo. I am allowed to tell it like it is, and leave you to decide for yourself what to do with the information.
Some would say it’s dogmatic to embrace the views of scientists and scholars, but this would be forgetting what dogmatism means: “positiveness in assertion of opinion especially when unwarranted or arrogant… a viewpoint or system of ideas based on insufficiently examined premises.”
The wonderful thing about the scientific method of establishing facts based on evidence is that views and conclusions can change as new evidence is presented.
Religious fundamentalism, on the other hand, is the very embodiment of dogmatism. It is the unyielding insistence that something is true and can only ever be true because an unquestionable sacred text says so. Speaking for myself, I can offer no apologies for instead basing what I say on evidence, and on what people who are vastly more knowledgeable than me have to say about the bible and other issues.
In summary, what you WON’T find on JWsurvey is any effort to lead you off into belief or unbelief. I personally lose no sleep if a person leaves Jehovah’s Witnesses only to become enthralled by some equally spurious (if less harmful) religious code. But what you WILL find on this website is a stubborn, unapologetic dedication to established facts and scientific/scholarly consensus. What you choose to do with the information will always be up to you.

new-cedars-signature2






* I now find an outlet for being free about my atheism/agnosticism on Facebook and on JWpodcast episodes, but I try to keep JWsurvey and my YouTube channel as free as possible of anything that could be construed as pushing my non-belief on others. I believe that the focus of my work should be helping Jehovah’s Witnesses out of a harmful cult, not espousing my personal views on religion (which, in any case, are far better articulated by the likes of Sam Harris and the late Christopher Hitchens).
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88 Responses to What is JWsurvey’s approach to science, religion and the bible?

← Older Comments

 gary says:

 March 21, 2015 at 3:18 pm

Whatever you believe, believe. Revolution. . .Beatles. Never be owned. X
Reply
 

 anonymous says:

 March 21, 2015 at 3:29 pm

This is a really interesting documentary.



Reply
 

 gary says:

 March 21, 2015 at 3:38 pm

That’s the beauty of freedom:-) does an intelligent intellect exist?
Reply
 

 gary says:

 March 21, 2015 at 3:45 pm

Lol the irony:-)x (me) Great debate, cheers Lloyd:-)
Reply
 

 gary says:

 March 21, 2015 at 3:59 pm

I’m going to get shouted at quite probably, but I’ve been there before, a room without a views.
 Absoulately anything is honesty:-)x
Reply
 

 gary says:

 March 21, 2015 at 4:04 pm

Religion is the poison in the water. Absolutey agree.
Reply
 

 gary says:

 March 21, 2015 at 4:20 pm

Anyone who hates anyone in my world has already lost.
Reply
 

 gary says:

 March 21, 2015 at 4:37 pm

“With a little help from my friends”.x
Reply
 

 :) says:

 March 22, 2015 at 1:52 am

Watch the full discussion between Christopher Hitchens and John Lennox “Is god great?” and you will have a fair representation of both sides. Unfortunately there is only a 10-minute-summary on youtube, but the full debate is really interesting.



Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 22, 2015 at 1:56 am

Thanks. John Lennox is a great example of someone who manages to believe in God without denying science, i.e. evolution.
Reply
 
 

 ScotWm says:

 March 22, 2015 at 9:33 am

We have already considered the Watchtower’s claim that it is the “channel of God.” This channel of God, which once consisted of the remnant of the 144,000 faithful and discrete slaves, has now been reduced to a few members of the Governing Body. The Watchtower’s misuse of disfellowshipping, indoctrination and subordination techniques combined with false argumentation and manipulation combine to create a climate of fear in its followers. Add dozens of other false claims and false prophesies to this list and it becomes obvious that many Watchtower teachings are total nonsense.
After considering the above information and many other problems associated with Watchtower teachings, one member of the Governing Body decided to leave Jehovah’s Witnesses and write two books detailing his departure as well as his search for truth outside the Watchtower. At the end of his second book, Raymond Franz made several observations concerning his search for Christian freedom. Unfortunately, Mr. Franz was unable to find any religious organization that was totally in agreement with the Bible. However, his closing statements in his book “In Search of Christian Freedom” basically circle around to the following observation:
“In summary, then, even as I am convinced that the one true religion is Christianity itself, not some religious system claiming to represent and exemplify it, I also believe that the truth is found in the Scriptures, and not in any particular set of interpretations that men have developed or may yet develop. That truth is not only in the words themselves but primarily in the revelation they bring us of God and of his son. We will almost inevitably differ in our understanding on some points but, if governed by God’s Spirit, should have no great difficulty on those teachings clearly and plainly stated.”
It appears that Raymond Franz ultimately found himself in the same position as Charles Taze Russell, before he founded The Watchtower Society.
Reply
 
 Neal Krouni says:

 March 22, 2015 at 3:54 pm

O God!!! I hope we we don’t end up with a Watchtower II !!! One is much more than enuff!!!
GOD SAVE US FROM YOUR FOLLOWERS!!!
Reply
 
 

 Ted says:

 March 22, 2015 at 4:21 pm

@ Neal Krouni. Life is an”Opportunity” is a much better
 description than calling it a gift. How can it be a gift when
 so many have it snatched away from them at a very young
 age, sometimes even before they are born.
 Thanks for the thought , I will remember it and use it.
Reply
 

 James Broughton says:

 March 23, 2015 at 5:22 am

Dear Cedars,
 Many thanks for your recent thoughts on religious neutrality. Dr Billy Graham once said that religion can be like an inoculation. It can stop you from getting the real thing. My experience is quite different from yours. I disassociated myself from the JWs when I joined a Bible-believing Baptist church in Liverpool, England, much to the dismay of my JW older brother. I chose not to remain in a spiritual vacuum but exchanged one set of beliefs for another. The Watchtower Society seems to operate a policy of “Win some, lose some”. I am surprised that kingdom halls are not built with revolving doors. As long as you leave and go into oblivion, that’s OK. What they cannot tolerate is people who discover a belief in the real Jesus, rather like the Jewish authorities in Acts who tried to stop the early disciples from sharing the good news. I proved that recently when I was banned from talking with them in Dover market square because I suggested that you could pray to Jesus.
 Yes, I recognise that I may be preaching but I do believe it is important to present an alternative view. If you find you are in possession of counterfeit money, do you try to pass it off for the real thing or do you exchange it for the genuine? Both you and Paul Grundy provide excellent websites but I hope you won’t dismiss people like me out of hand. God bless, James.
Reply
 

 Ted says:

 March 23, 2015 at 8:07 am

John Lennox is a skilled debater, but I thought there was a
 gaping hole in his submission that “Jesus was God incarnate
 and the epitome of love,”
If Jesus is God, wether part of a trinity or otherwise, ( And he did
 claim, “Before Abraham was I Am”) Then he is responsible for the
 Old Testament atrocities, too numerous to list here. And of such a
 vile nature, if carried out today the. perpetrators would be classed
 as war criminals.
Jesus is credited with saying “love your Enemies”, and although
 there is no direct statement in the O,T, to hate your enemies.
 In practice, hatred and vengeance were the order of the day.
 Enemies were destroyed down to the last child.
If that’s the epitome of love, then language and learning needs
 re-inventing. The Bible is such a rag bag of conflicting ideas,
 it could not possibly be the product of a supreme intellect.
Reply
 

 Scepticalone says:

 March 23, 2015 at 8:17 am

Dear Cedars:
You and some other persons who own your Internet Sites are entitled to bar persons from further comments on the subject of evolution or any other subject of disagreement but what may this demonstrate? It demonstrates perhaps a sort of tyranny or fear of strongly backed up reasons or a very reasoned presentation for their positions. You do remind me of the same position that the very organization you oppose. Of course, you remind me of their reasons they say beware of apostasy you say beware of evangelizers!!
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 23, 2015 at 8:41 am

I have yet to hear a “reasoned” piece of evidence against evolution. That is because if such evidence existed, it would make headline news around the world and the discoverer would likely receive a Nobel prize. On the rare occasion that a religious fundamentalist has spouted anti-science ignorance against evolution on this website, especially when I work so hard to keep my articles free of any such nonsense, I make no apologies for taking their commenting privileges away from them. This cannot be considered “tyranny” in any meaningful sense of the word. It is just keeping this website factual, evidence-based and free from inherited dogma, mental flatulence and evangelical graffiti.
Reply
 
 Scepticalone says:

 March 23, 2015 at 8:11 pm

Dear Cedars:
I tried to look on your site for evidence that you feel supports Evolution as being a fact. I could not find any unless I am looking in the wrong place I would appreciate any reference, something very specific that I can look up, something easily available. A particular fact, statement etc.
 Thank you
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 23, 2015 at 11:50 pm

I don’t need to supply evidence on a Jehovah’s Witness-related website for evolution being scientific. Go out and do some research.
Reply
 
 
 
 

 Ted says:

 March 23, 2015 at 8:43 am

If we accept the JW teaching that jesus is not God, but
 the son of God. Jesus did say “I and the Father are one”
JWs interpret this as “one in agreement” hence, all the
 O,T, outrages are acceptable to him.
Reply
 
 Neal Krouni says:

 March 23, 2015 at 1:45 pm

Good point Ted. Jesus preached love, even to the extent of ‘loving one’s enemies’ & ‘turning the other cheek’ & forgiving “77 times”!! Yet, if he is “one” in agreement with his “father”, then he must have been cool with all the wars, genocides and atrocities ordered by dear old “dad” in the O.T.!!
Reply
 
 

 Wild Olive says:

 March 24, 2015 at 9:22 pm

I sometimes wonder if it’s Gods plan to make sure no one has all the answers,considering what had been said on this site for and against .
 He’s probably more than aware that humans egos can become bigger than the universe once they’ve convinced themselves their right.
 I would rather be stuck questioning than be stuck dogmatising.
Reply
 

 mika says:

 March 25, 2015 at 7:22 am

Evolution is a fact because majority of biologists accept it as a fact. Why? Because of tons of arguments in favor of evolution? If it is true why are there many scenarios how and where life evolved? Why there are disagreement about who are our ancestors, how this and that form evolved and when they evolved? Evolutionists are good in story telling, so is Cedars. Bible believers are deluded, but anti-theists in gloves are objective! That is why my comment could be deleted again! Thank you Cedars for not coercing Christians to ditch their belief in God entirely!!! Yes, you could be shy theist, but only secularism can be preached. This is the greatest form of freedom and free speech.We must not ignore Bart Ehrman, but we should ignore Yamauchi, Licona, Habermas and their sound arguments. If you post some evidence which these respectful scholars present, you are preaching,you are doing bad thing. The good and objective thing is to promote ONLY secularism, and you can choose any learned or poor educated man who support this agenda.Obviously, this is the only way to make informative choice toward ULTIMATE OBJECTIVITY which is rejection of God (especially Christian) as important person. Probably, our secular leaders are offended when you consider Christ or Jehovah more important than him. This madness must be stopped!
Reply
 

 gary says:

 March 25, 2015 at 11:48 pm

Here goes with the risk of being lampooned (gulp)
 I personally believe that religion is the poison in the water, however, it’s of interest that large parts of the book of Daniel where found among the dead sea scrolls, it would be interesting to see when they date from. Even so the so called Christ confirmed his authenticity. Regardless though this is my thought about a universal mind.
 The moon is 400 times smaller than the sun and is 400 times closer to the earth, not doubt that is why the moon can eclipse the sun as they appear the same size. The earth is tilted at 23 degrees giving us the seasons. It rotates at 600 miles per hour on its own axis and travels around the sun at 6000 miles per hour without crushing us with gravity. One mile further away from the sun we would all freeze and one mile closer to the sun and we would
 burn. That there are universal laws of physics tells a person that there is order, and not random chance, not just in this small solar system and galaxy but in the billions of galaxies. As regards evolution the bible does not disagree. All it says is their kinds. No doubt this is why hybrids cannot sexually reproduce.. . . (Go gentle with your reply as its of interest to me)
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 26, 2015 at 12:46 am

Hello Gary. If you want to, you are welcome to believe that the God of the bible is real and has made his 14 billion-year-old universe with humans in mind, positioning the earth at the perfect distance from the sun for their liking. But the point is, this belief of yours is a choice. You don’t HAVE to believe this, just as a puddle (if it were self-aware) wouldn’t HAVE to believe that the slight recess in the sidewalk that it occupies was purposefully fashioned by the maker of the sidewalk with its dimensions in mind.
The point of our religious neutrality policy is that it is everyone’s choice what to believe, but it is not a choice to use this website to evangelize these beliefs towards others. If there is to be a line of arbitration drawn as to whether something stated is factual or not – it HAS to be science, which bases itself on evidence rather than dogma. And there is a multitude of different lines of evidence to scientifically support evolution. If you feel you need to educate yourself further on this and other fields of scientific inquiry, there are any number of resources for you to draw from. I hope this answers your comment.
Reply
 
 

 gary says:

 March 25, 2015 at 11:56 pm

P.s. hybrids of different species.x (who mentioned scousers?)
Reply
 

 gary says:

 March 26, 2015 at 7:14 am

I agree with you. Facts and knowledge lead us to our conclusions, wherever each of us are along that road. I’m not trying to preach a certain god/religion or belief but the discussion between science and faith fascinates me, personally I see no conflict. I hate indoctrination with a passion. So :-) I wish you well :-) and say thanks for your research, observations and patience.x
Reply
 

 gary says:

 March 26, 2015 at 7:17 am

One last thing I’ll say before I go though regarding debate (whatever it concerns) Both sides now. . Joni Mitchell/Neil diamond.x
Reply
 

 gary says:

 March 26, 2015 at 9:06 am

She’s electric.
Reply
 

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What is JWsurvey’s approach to science, religion and the bible?
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Posted on March 19, 2015

Religious neutrality is an essential element of JWsurvey
Religious neutrality is an essential element of JWsurvey

Frequent visitors to JWsurvey will be familiar with this website’s posting guidelines for comments, which include the following rule regarding religious neutrality: “Do not post comments that are evangelical in nature or may be construed as imposing one person’s religious beliefs (or lack thereof) over those of another.”
I firmly believe that religious neutrality is one of the most important elements of the work we do here on JWsurvey. It is crucial that visitors to this website, especially those who are currently Jehovah’s Witnesses (or who are struggling with JW indoctrination) do not feel that they are being preached to or ushered towards some alternative set of beliefs.
I know a lack of restraint in this area turned me away from so-called “apostate” sites when I made a brief online foray years ago while still a Witness. I wanted to see whether I could find any meaningful arguments against Watchtower teachings. Instead I was confronted by websites urging me towards born-again Christianity – which only reaffirmed my suspicions about “apostates.”
I can similarly remember recoiling a little when, in an email conversation with Paul Grundy of JWfacts.com back in 2011 (when I was midway through waking up), I learned that he was atheist. Though I was still in the process of figuring out what my own beliefs were at that stage, I couldn’t help but feel dejected that someone as knowledgeable as Paul had concluded that there isn’t a God after all.
As it turns out, I myself am now atheist regarding theism (the existence of the God of the bible) and agnostic regarding deism (the concept of some intelligent, creative force behind the universe).* But I can well imagine how such a position would be a stumbling block for a Jehovah’s Witness searching for some kind of common ground with former members.
This is why JWsurvey’s religious neutrality policy is supremely important. Visitors need to feel that they can view objective information about Jehovah’s Witnesses and their beliefs without being preached to, or coerced to ditch their belief in God entirely.
But religious neutrality only really works if it is tempered by secularism, defined by one dictionary as “the belief that religion should not play a role in government, education, or other public parts of society.” Why do I say this? Because most (if not all) religions are mutually exclusive.
For example, you cannot subscribe to both Islam and Hinduism, or both Judaism and Christianity. Religion by its very nature is contentious. Religious beliefs compete with and exclude one another. Only by assuming a secular position, namely that no one religion is more true or untrue than another, can there be real tolerance and religious plurality – a respect for the diversity of religious views, including the right to have no religious views at all.
Accepting science
Secularism also insists that religion and education should be kept separate. I have already written a handful of articles touching on the subject of evolution, and on each occasion I have unashamedly taken the position that evolution is not just a “theory” but a scientific, observable fact. Accepting evolution is not a religious or even an atheist position – it is a scientific one, regardless of what Watchtower says.
There is no reason to feel ashamed of our kinship with other living things through evolution
There is no reason to reject our kinship with other living things through evolution

You CAN be both religious and accept that living things evolve gradually over time. Those who claim that life doesn’t evolve are usually trying to assert their religious views, often inherited (at least in part) from their parents, and/or are ignorant as to what evolution actually is and how it works.
If you deny evolution but embrace other areas of scientific discovery, perhaps even benefiting from them in day-to-day life, this could be considered “cherry-picking.” You would be embracing only those scientific discoveries that conveniently suit your world view, and discarding those that don’t. Of course, you are entitled to do this if it makes you feel happier and more fulfilled in life, but you cannot expect this website to censor itself to conform to such a distorted approach.
When I (or others) write about evolution we are not disrespecting a creationist’s beliefs any more than Galileo was disrespecting the Catholic church by insisting that the earth rotates around the sun rather than the opposite being the case. We are merely telling it like it is. Whether you choose to believe in God or not remains absolutely your decision and right.
The bible and prophecy
I found myself caught in a dilemma recently when filming my rebuttal to the latest JW Broadcasting episode, in which Gerrit Lösch argued for the reliability and authenticity of bible prophecy. I could have merely retorted (as I did) that it is perfectly possible to believe in the bible’s authenticity and not believe, as Jehovah’s Witnesses do, that unless you bow to the authority of seven men in New York you will join billions in being slaughtered at Armageddon.
But this argument on its own seemed rather hollow, especially when the elephant in the room was the fact that the bible is NOT a book of prophecy – it merely purports to be one.


I therefore pointed my viewers to the fact that most scholars agree that Daniel was not written in the 6th Century BC but much later, some time in the 2nd Century BC – decades after many of the events it “prophesied” took place.
It can never be asserted definitively that this is so (because no one actually saw the book being written), but neither can it be asserted that the book of Daniel was written by Daniel himself while in Babylonian exile.
Watchtower relies on general ignorance regarding the work of bible scholars like Bart Ehrman
Watchtower relies on general ignorance regarding the work of bible scholars like Bart Ehrman

Why? Because the character of Daniel, a senior court official, would not have incorrectly named the line of Babylonian/Persian rulers of Babylon. (Try researching “Darius the Mede.”) He would at least have got it right with their names, even if he could be forgiven for getting it wrong about the fate of Antiochus Epiphanes in Daniel 11 (who wasn’t to die until the 2nd Century BC, apparently after Daniel was written).
Then there was the problem of messianic prophecy, also raised by Lösch as an argument for the bible’s authenticity. How does one bring up the awkward fact that it’s highly likely at least one “prophecy” (the virgin birth) was inspired by a mistranslation of the original Hebrew in the Greek Septuagint?
My only solution was to run the gauntlet and do it anyway, but as respectfully as possible – all the while acknowledging that it is the absolute right of people to believe that the bible is inspired, but not to expect others to believe likewise.
You can claim, for example, that Jesus really was born of a virgin, but this can never be a historical or scientific claim – it can only ever be a religious claim. The same applies to the Hebrew Scriptures (or Old Testament). You can believe that the events from Adam and Eve to King Saul really happened if you like, but good luck trying to find a shred of archeological evidence to prove anything in the bible narrative from earlier than King David.
Or to put it another way – if 2.5 million Israelites really did spend 40 years meandering across the Sinai desert some time in the 13th/14th Century BC, sacrificing animals, waging war and observing rituals along the way, they apparently managed this feat without leaving behind so much as a toothpick for archeologists to uncover. (If you didn’t know this already, don’t take my word for it – do the research for yourself.)
Religion is a choice
This is why religion will always be, not unquestionable truth, but a choice.
You, dear reader, have the absolute right to decide what you believe or don’t believe; what evidence or scholarly consensus you accept or dismiss. Anyone who tries to take this right away from you should feel ashamed of themselves. But this does not mean that I, as a writer and speaker, must skirt around scientific fact and scholarly consensus as though these things are irrelevant or somehow taboo. I am allowed to tell it like it is, and leave you to decide for yourself what to do with the information.
Some would say it’s dogmatic to embrace the views of scientists and scholars, but this would be forgetting what dogmatism means: “positiveness in assertion of opinion especially when unwarranted or arrogant… a viewpoint or system of ideas based on insufficiently examined premises.”
The wonderful thing about the scientific method of establishing facts based on evidence is that views and conclusions can change as new evidence is presented.
Religious fundamentalism, on the other hand, is the very embodiment of dogmatism. It is the unyielding insistence that something is true and can only ever be true because an unquestionable sacred text says so. Speaking for myself, I can offer no apologies for instead basing what I say on evidence, and on what people who are vastly more knowledgeable than me have to say about the bible and other issues.
In summary, what you WON’T find on JWsurvey is any effort to lead you off into belief or unbelief. I personally lose no sleep if a person leaves Jehovah’s Witnesses only to become enthralled by some equally spurious (if less harmful) religious code. But what you WILL find on this website is a stubborn, unapologetic dedication to established facts and scientific/scholarly consensus. What you choose to do with the information will always be up to you.

new-cedars-signature2






* I now find an outlet for being free about my atheism/agnosticism on Facebook and on JWpodcast episodes, but I try to keep JWsurvey and my YouTube channel as free as possible of anything that could be construed as pushing my non-belief on others. I believe that the focus of my work should be helping Jehovah’s Witnesses out of a harmful cult, not espousing my personal views on religion (which, in any case, are far better articulated by the likes of Sam Harris and the late Christopher Hitchens).
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88 Responses to What is JWsurvey’s approach to science, religion and the bible?

← Older Comments

 gary says:

 March 21, 2015 at 3:18 pm

Whatever you believe, believe. Revolution. . .Beatles. Never be owned. X
Reply
 

 anonymous says:

 March 21, 2015 at 3:29 pm

This is a really interesting documentary.



Reply
 

 gary says:

 March 21, 2015 at 3:38 pm

That’s the beauty of freedom:-) does an intelligent intellect exist?
Reply
 

 gary says:

 March 21, 2015 at 3:45 pm

Lol the irony:-)x (me) Great debate, cheers Lloyd:-)
Reply
 

 gary says:

 March 21, 2015 at 3:59 pm

I’m going to get shouted at quite probably, but I’ve been there before, a room without a views.
 Absoulately anything is honesty:-)x
Reply
 

 gary says:

 March 21, 2015 at 4:04 pm

Religion is the poison in the water. Absolutey agree.
Reply
 

 gary says:

 March 21, 2015 at 4:20 pm

Anyone who hates anyone in my world has already lost.
Reply
 

 gary says:

 March 21, 2015 at 4:37 pm

“With a little help from my friends”.x
Reply
 

 :) says:

 March 22, 2015 at 1:52 am

Watch the full discussion between Christopher Hitchens and John Lennox “Is god great?” and you will have a fair representation of both sides. Unfortunately there is only a 10-minute-summary on youtube, but the full debate is really interesting.



Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 22, 2015 at 1:56 am

Thanks. John Lennox is a great example of someone who manages to believe in God without denying science, i.e. evolution.
Reply
 
 

 ScotWm says:

 March 22, 2015 at 9:33 am

We have already considered the Watchtower’s claim that it is the “channel of God.” This channel of God, which once consisted of the remnant of the 144,000 faithful and discrete slaves, has now been reduced to a few members of the Governing Body. The Watchtower’s misuse of disfellowshipping, indoctrination and subordination techniques combined with false argumentation and manipulation combine to create a climate of fear in its followers. Add dozens of other false claims and false prophesies to this list and it becomes obvious that many Watchtower teachings are total nonsense.
After considering the above information and many other problems associated with Watchtower teachings, one member of the Governing Body decided to leave Jehovah’s Witnesses and write two books detailing his departure as well as his search for truth outside the Watchtower. At the end of his second book, Raymond Franz made several observations concerning his search for Christian freedom. Unfortunately, Mr. Franz was unable to find any religious organization that was totally in agreement with the Bible. However, his closing statements in his book “In Search of Christian Freedom” basically circle around to the following observation:
“In summary, then, even as I am convinced that the one true religion is Christianity itself, not some religious system claiming to represent and exemplify it, I also believe that the truth is found in the Scriptures, and not in any particular set of interpretations that men have developed or may yet develop. That truth is not only in the words themselves but primarily in the revelation they bring us of God and of his son. We will almost inevitably differ in our understanding on some points but, if governed by God’s Spirit, should have no great difficulty on those teachings clearly and plainly stated.”
It appears that Raymond Franz ultimately found himself in the same position as Charles Taze Russell, before he founded The Watchtower Society.
Reply
 
 Neal Krouni says:

 March 22, 2015 at 3:54 pm

O God!!! I hope we we don’t end up with a Watchtower II !!! One is much more than enuff!!!
GOD SAVE US FROM YOUR FOLLOWERS!!!
Reply
 
 

 Ted says:

 March 22, 2015 at 4:21 pm

@ Neal Krouni. Life is an”Opportunity” is a much better
 description than calling it a gift. How can it be a gift when
 so many have it snatched away from them at a very young
 age, sometimes even before they are born.
 Thanks for the thought , I will remember it and use it.
Reply
 

 James Broughton says:

 March 23, 2015 at 5:22 am

Dear Cedars,
 Many thanks for your recent thoughts on religious neutrality. Dr Billy Graham once said that religion can be like an inoculation. It can stop you from getting the real thing. My experience is quite different from yours. I disassociated myself from the JWs when I joined a Bible-believing Baptist church in Liverpool, England, much to the dismay of my JW older brother. I chose not to remain in a spiritual vacuum but exchanged one set of beliefs for another. The Watchtower Society seems to operate a policy of “Win some, lose some”. I am surprised that kingdom halls are not built with revolving doors. As long as you leave and go into oblivion, that’s OK. What they cannot tolerate is people who discover a belief in the real Jesus, rather like the Jewish authorities in Acts who tried to stop the early disciples from sharing the good news. I proved that recently when I was banned from talking with them in Dover market square because I suggested that you could pray to Jesus.
 Yes, I recognise that I may be preaching but I do believe it is important to present an alternative view. If you find you are in possession of counterfeit money, do you try to pass it off for the real thing or do you exchange it for the genuine? Both you and Paul Grundy provide excellent websites but I hope you won’t dismiss people like me out of hand. God bless, James.
Reply
 

 Ted says:

 March 23, 2015 at 8:07 am

John Lennox is a skilled debater, but I thought there was a
 gaping hole in his submission that “Jesus was God incarnate
 and the epitome of love,”
If Jesus is God, wether part of a trinity or otherwise, ( And he did
 claim, “Before Abraham was I Am”) Then he is responsible for the
 Old Testament atrocities, too numerous to list here. And of such a
 vile nature, if carried out today the. perpetrators would be classed
 as war criminals.
Jesus is credited with saying “love your Enemies”, and although
 there is no direct statement in the O,T, to hate your enemies.
 In practice, hatred and vengeance were the order of the day.
 Enemies were destroyed down to the last child.
If that’s the epitome of love, then language and learning needs
 re-inventing. The Bible is such a rag bag of conflicting ideas,
 it could not possibly be the product of a supreme intellect.
Reply
 

 Scepticalone says:

 March 23, 2015 at 8:17 am

Dear Cedars:
You and some other persons who own your Internet Sites are entitled to bar persons from further comments on the subject of evolution or any other subject of disagreement but what may this demonstrate? It demonstrates perhaps a sort of tyranny or fear of strongly backed up reasons or a very reasoned presentation for their positions. You do remind me of the same position that the very organization you oppose. Of course, you remind me of their reasons they say beware of apostasy you say beware of evangelizers!!
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 23, 2015 at 8:41 am

I have yet to hear a “reasoned” piece of evidence against evolution. That is because if such evidence existed, it would make headline news around the world and the discoverer would likely receive a Nobel prize. On the rare occasion that a religious fundamentalist has spouted anti-science ignorance against evolution on this website, especially when I work so hard to keep my articles free of any such nonsense, I make no apologies for taking their commenting privileges away from them. This cannot be considered “tyranny” in any meaningful sense of the word. It is just keeping this website factual, evidence-based and free from inherited dogma, mental flatulence and evangelical graffiti.
Reply
 
 Scepticalone says:

 March 23, 2015 at 8:11 pm

Dear Cedars:
I tried to look on your site for evidence that you feel supports Evolution as being a fact. I could not find any unless I am looking in the wrong place I would appreciate any reference, something very specific that I can look up, something easily available. A particular fact, statement etc.
 Thank you
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 23, 2015 at 11:50 pm

I don’t need to supply evidence on a Jehovah’s Witness-related website for evolution being scientific. Go out and do some research.
Reply
 
 
 
 

 Ted says:

 March 23, 2015 at 8:43 am

If we accept the JW teaching that jesus is not God, but
 the son of God. Jesus did say “I and the Father are one”
JWs interpret this as “one in agreement” hence, all the
 O,T, outrages are acceptable to him.
Reply
 
 Neal Krouni says:

 March 23, 2015 at 1:45 pm

Good point Ted. Jesus preached love, even to the extent of ‘loving one’s enemies’ & ‘turning the other cheek’ & forgiving “77 times”!! Yet, if he is “one” in agreement with his “father”, then he must have been cool with all the wars, genocides and atrocities ordered by dear old “dad” in the O.T.!!
Reply
 
 

 Wild Olive says:

 March 24, 2015 at 9:22 pm

I sometimes wonder if it’s Gods plan to make sure no one has all the answers,considering what had been said on this site for and against .
 He’s probably more than aware that humans egos can become bigger than the universe once they’ve convinced themselves their right.
 I would rather be stuck questioning than be stuck dogmatising.
Reply
 

 mika says:

 March 25, 2015 at 7:22 am

Evolution is a fact because majority of biologists accept it as a fact. Why? Because of tons of arguments in favor of evolution? If it is true why are there many scenarios how and where life evolved? Why there are disagreement about who are our ancestors, how this and that form evolved and when they evolved? Evolutionists are good in story telling, so is Cedars. Bible believers are deluded, but anti-theists in gloves are objective! That is why my comment could be deleted again! Thank you Cedars for not coercing Christians to ditch their belief in God entirely!!! Yes, you could be shy theist, but only secularism can be preached. This is the greatest form of freedom and free speech.We must not ignore Bart Ehrman, but we should ignore Yamauchi, Licona, Habermas and their sound arguments. If you post some evidence which these respectful scholars present, you are preaching,you are doing bad thing. The good and objective thing is to promote ONLY secularism, and you can choose any learned or poor educated man who support this agenda.Obviously, this is the only way to make informative choice toward ULTIMATE OBJECTIVITY which is rejection of God (especially Christian) as important person. Probably, our secular leaders are offended when you consider Christ or Jehovah more important than him. This madness must be stopped!
Reply
 

 gary says:

 March 25, 2015 at 11:48 pm

Here goes with the risk of being lampooned (gulp)
 I personally believe that religion is the poison in the water, however, it’s of interest that large parts of the book of Daniel where found among the dead sea scrolls, it would be interesting to see when they date from. Even so the so called Christ confirmed his authenticity. Regardless though this is my thought about a universal mind.
 The moon is 400 times smaller than the sun and is 400 times closer to the earth, not doubt that is why the moon can eclipse the sun as they appear the same size. The earth is tilted at 23 degrees giving us the seasons. It rotates at 600 miles per hour on its own axis and travels around the sun at 6000 miles per hour without crushing us with gravity. One mile further away from the sun we would all freeze and one mile closer to the sun and we would
 burn. That there are universal laws of physics tells a person that there is order, and not random chance, not just in this small solar system and galaxy but in the billions of galaxies. As regards evolution the bible does not disagree. All it says is their kinds. No doubt this is why hybrids cannot sexually reproduce.. . . (Go gentle with your reply as its of interest to me)
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 26, 2015 at 12:46 am

Hello Gary. If you want to, you are welcome to believe that the God of the bible is real and has made his 14 billion-year-old universe with humans in mind, positioning the earth at the perfect distance from the sun for their liking. But the point is, this belief of yours is a choice. You don’t HAVE to believe this, just as a puddle (if it were self-aware) wouldn’t HAVE to believe that the slight recess in the sidewalk that it occupies was purposefully fashioned by the maker of the sidewalk with its dimensions in mind.
The point of our religious neutrality policy is that it is everyone’s choice what to believe, but it is not a choice to use this website to evangelize these beliefs towards others. If there is to be a line of arbitration drawn as to whether something stated is factual or not – it HAS to be science, which bases itself on evidence rather than dogma. And there is a multitude of different lines of evidence to scientifically support evolution. If you feel you need to educate yourself further on this and other fields of scientific inquiry, there are any number of resources for you to draw from. I hope this answers your comment.
Reply
 
 

 gary says:

 March 25, 2015 at 11:56 pm

P.s. hybrids of different species.x (who mentioned scousers?)
Reply
 

 gary says:

 March 26, 2015 at 7:14 am

I agree with you. Facts and knowledge lead us to our conclusions, wherever each of us are along that road. I’m not trying to preach a certain god/religion or belief but the discussion between science and faith fascinates me, personally I see no conflict. I hate indoctrination with a passion. So :-) I wish you well :-) and say thanks for your research, observations and patience.x
Reply
 

 gary says:

 March 26, 2015 at 7:17 am

One last thing I’ll say before I go though regarding debate (whatever it concerns) Both sides now. . Joni Mitchell/Neil diamond.x
Reply
 

 gary says:

 March 26, 2015 at 9:06 am

She’s electric.
Reply
 

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← Harmful beliefs – woman and her unborn child perish after she refuses a blood transfusion
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My response to the haters (and why I can’t always shake it off)
avatar
Posted on April 11, 2015

Abuse from fanatical Cedars-bashers like Tony Balchen (pictured) is beginning to take its toll
Abuse from fanatical Cedars-bashers like Tony Balchen (pictured) is beginning to take its toll

I suffer from depression, but even at my darkest moments, when my mind has briefly flirted with notions of suicide, I’ve always thought what a bad choice that would be.
There are just so many different ways a person’s life could be configured. So whenever it feels like there is no way out, I’ve always found myself able to reason that surely there MUST be another way of living that is less soul-destroying – even if the journey to that change of circumstances might be difficult.
Many of you will remember I was attacked towards the end of last year for voicing an opinion on “aggressive activism,” which is my definition for the goading, taunting and confronting of bewildered cult victims – either at places of worship or during their public preaching work – by indignant, vengeful exJWs.
In response to simply offering my opinion on this issue (doing so without naming any names), I was accused of being a stalker, a wife beater, a cult leader, a cyber-bully, and even a potential pedophile – with my baby daughter seemingly at risk from me.
As hurtful as this torrent of abuse has been, what has been even more alarming is the ease with which the ringleaders behind these accusations have managed to recruit a group of sympathizers, and manipulated these into believing that THEY are the true victims in this whole scenario – not me.
Also troubling is the complete lack of restraint and basic human decency from this mob, many of whom claim to be Christian. For example, two particularly vocal critics of mine called Mike and Kim are so passionate about bringing Jehovah’s Witnesses to Christ that they have apparently set up their own state-registered ministry.
These same people have sat in front of a camera to deliver a 90-minute tirade featuring all of the aforementioned accusations, apparently seeing no conflict with their Holy Book’s calls to “suffer evil” and “be peaceable with all men.”
Though I expect proponents of evangelical activism (“leave Watchtower and embrace our, correct version of Christianity”) to take issue with my openness about my agnosticism/atheism, I find it troubling that the likes of Mike and Kim have been so successful in exploiting the aggressive activism controversy as a smokescreen to pursue their agenda of trying to silence my agnostic views – to the point of hoodwinking even non-religious exJWs into flocking to their anti-Cedars banner.
When the backlash reached its zenith just before Christmas, I seriously considered breaking some of the tension with a light-hearted video in which I would sing a parody song aimed at debunking Mike and Kim’s accusation that I am obsessed with their daughter, who previously helped me with my work. I envisioned a video in which I would be seated at a piano, Gary Barlow-style, singing plaintively to a framed picture of her, delivering a mock confession of my love for her, and mourning that it was unrequited.
But thankfully I snapped out of doing this video when I remembered that the person in question has been known to suffer from depression. However funny the video might have been to some, and however successful it might have been at rubbishing the claims that I was fixated with this girl, how would I have felt if she had committed suicide soon after it was circulated? I would have felt utterly devastated, and responsible for her loss.
All about the money?
Since all of that, there has been a fresh wave of attacks. Apparently my already-long list of fabricated/embellished crimes has been added to, with claims that I am profiteering from my work as an activist (to the tune of over $10,000 per year), that I live in a “hole” of a country, that I make my wife work while I do nothing, that I “disfellowship” people who disagree with me, that I am fat and ugly (well, maybe that’s true), and that I have been too ready to defend myself in conversations with trolls on Facebook and YouTube.
I’ve mostly been able to shrug off all this mud-slinging, knowing full well I have nothing to hide.
As far as my finances are concerned – yes I have Google ads on my website, but so does JWfacts. Yes I have a PayPal button for donations, but so does JWstruggle (and a LOT of other exJW websites, none of which seem to be under siege for the heresy of accepting money). And I also plead guilty to having a Patreon button at the end of my videos for people who want to donate to my work – but nobody is forced to click through and pledge donations.
My articles and videos are available to people entirely free of charge, and will remain so.
Any proceeds from Google Ad impressions* ($125 per month), YouTube ad impressions ($110 per month), or regular donations ($63 per month) get ploughed straight into my business to help pay for new equipment and justify the considerable time spent away from my regular job (translating and proofreading) while doing research and producing content. (For example, my 2-hour rebuttal video to the Gerrit Losch JW broadcasting episode took three days to put together, which would be hard to justify if it wasn’t part of my job.)
There have been occasions where large, one-off donations have been made either to help our family (most notably when we had Jessica’s baby shower) or to assist with my activism (i.e. when two large donations were received to help fund our trip to London for the conference on undue influence) – but this money has never come with strings attached, i.e. that I must endorse Christianity and stay silent about my unbelief. My supporters have simply been willing to help out as the need arises, and they have been placed under no compulsion to do so.
Unlike many of the people who are styling me as a rich cult leader sponging off gormless followers and abuse victims, I don’t yet have a fridge, a TV, a sofa or a kitchen. I REALLY AM doing my activism because I want to free people both now and in the future from cult indoctrination. My work is offered freely, and I don’t see why I should be made to turn down acts of kindness when these are extended simply to appease my critics.
The only work I ever intend to charge for will be my book, which I will aim to price as reasonably as possible once it is finally finished and published. No doubt once it goes on sale I will receive a fresh wave of abuse from people who will quickly forget how much they paid to read the words of Steven Hassan, Jim Penton, Carl Olof Jonsson or Ray Franz and paint me as a greedy profiteer all over again – but it is pointless trying to keep such people happy.
Is blocking someone on Facebook “shunning?”
I have also come under fire for my practice of blocking people on Facebook who are either critical of my activism, or abusive towards me, or supportive/defensive of those who are abusive towards me. I fail to understand why I am obliged to use Facebook, not as a tool for keeping in touch with my friends and readers, but as an implement of ritual self-flagellation that I must use to entertain the scathing rants and banal sniping of my mostly-anonymous, mostly-evangelical critics on a daily basis.
Telling me I’m not allowed to block or unfriend people on Facebook who are nasty is like telling me I MUST stand and listen to random people shout at and berate me if I encounter them while out shopping. I am perfectly within my rights to walk away from any such situation and get on with whatever it was I was doing. I don’t HAVE to punish myself with nonsense just for the sake of it.
It’s worth remembering that nobody is forcing anyone to watch my videos OR read my blog articles. If you hate me and my work so much I have excellent news – you don’t HAVE to follow me or read/watch my work. You can do activism the way YOU want to do it, or find an activist whose videos and blogs are more to your liking. Or you can avoid taking in “apostate” material altogether, if that’s your problem.
And no, I am not in the business of “shunning” people who disagree with me. I am merely choosy about who my friends are. I have plenty of people on my Facebook friends list with whom I don’t see eye to eye on a range of issues, but I find they are able to put their points across without evangelizing or resorting to ad hominem insults and accusations, so I am only too happy to keep them in my circle and benefit from their perspective.
And frankly, I find the use of the word “shunning” in describing any situation other than estrangement from family or close friends to be an insult – especially by people who should know the difference between being prevented from commenting on a blog or Facebook page and having all contact with family terminated forever.
Taking its toll
Usually I am able to shrug off all the above silliness, content with the fact that I am doing the best I can for all the right motives, and making some modest headway in waking people up (if my email inbox is to be believed).
But today I was out mingling with some of my friends who live in my village, and something fairly innocuous happened that sent me spiraling into the realization that the level of abuse being directed at me from self-righteous keyboard warriors on the other side of the Atlantic really is starting to take its toll.
I didn’t feel suicidal, but I definitely felt a huge wave of sadness and futility.
I went home and talked to my wife Dijana about what I was feeling, and she told me she was feeling pressured by the situation too. Whenever I am talked about, or our family is talked about, by obsessive lunatics who are more fixated with me than they are with Watchtower, Dijana finds herself worrying and fretting over what effect this will have on me, and whether we are safe from these clearly disturbed individuals (bearing in mind we have already received two menacing cards through the post from an individual in America calling himself/herself “John Smith”).
john-smith-cards
What upsets Dijana most is that, amidst all this hatred and vitriol, she feels forced to put on a brave face for our daughter Jessica, because she is worried that if she lets her sadness show when spending time with our baby this might subconsciously rub off on her, or make her feel that she is somehow not living up to expectations.
Dijana also can’t help but feel enraged when she sees her picture (taken from our translation company website), being shared around on Facebook “hate Cedars” groups, the members of whom then speculate that she is the victim of an oppressive, abusive husband. If she were herself an outspoken activist, or vocal about anything beyond whale conservation, she could perhaps understand all the scrutiny – but she is content to let me get on with my activism and focus on being a mother, and thus finds it all very intrusive.
This conversation with Dijana, and the realization that the fanatical obsessions of a few troubled individuals in America are having a tangible impact on our family has led to my writing this article by way of pleading with any exJWs out there who might have been swayed by my attackers to apply some logic and reason, and show some compassion.
I am not a cult leader. I am not a leader of any sort, and would repudiate any attempts to make me one. I am an ordinary man with a wife and daughter who just happens to be an activist against a cruel cult. And yes, I happen to not be religious.
Of course I have made mistakes, and perhaps gone too far at times when confronting trolls and critics on Facebook and YouTube – but nothing I have said or done has even remotely warranted the tsunami of hatred and vitriol that has been directed against me and my family over the past few months.
A plea for decency
All I ask of my fellow ex cult-members is some basic human decency – the same instincts of solidarity and compassion that made me pull back from making a stupid piano video that I would have almost certainly regretted.
I am not a suicide threat, and my depression is manageable, but I do have a wife and baby daughter – and when you attack me with completely unfounded and specious allegations, you attack them as well. Dijana in particular really does feel the reverberations, to the point of wanting to write to some of the ringleaders herself.
It has long been a notable irony that the majority of opposition to my activism work comes, not from Watchtower or Jehovah’s Witnesses, but from my fellow ex-JWs. I’ve noticed from conversations with activists against other cults that this is not an isolated phenomenon. People who have exited other high-control groups have also been known to turn on each other, and make each other scapegoats for their issues and frustrations.
If it were only me who was taking the heat for having an opinion, and not being afraid to voice it, I think I could handle much of what I’ve been subjected to – content to simply block persistent trolls and fanatics who are hell-bent on character-assassinating me.
But when it starts to affect my family, I do feel a need to draw the line. This abuse has to stop. If you happen to be involved in any way, I implore you to please find something or someone else who is worthy of your frustrations. There are seven men in Brooklyn who export truckloads of pain and misery on a daily basis that I can strongly recommend.

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*An ad impression is when an ad is shown on a page or video. Simply by having the ad appear on the blog page you are reading, or the YouTube video you are watching, I receive a small amount of money from Google, who in turn receive money from the company whose ad was shown.


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← Harmful beliefs – woman and her unborn child perish after she refuses a blood transfusion
Conti appeal: Watchtower’s punitive damages reversed but negligence for lack of field service supervision is affirmed →

212 Responses to My response to the haters (and why I can’t always shake it off)

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 The irony says:

 May 7, 2015 at 8:12 am

The irony is amazing to me. You have been deceived, not only because you allowed yourself to be, but because you invited it. Most activists have a mission and will stop at nothing in their attempt to see it through. You see, just because someone claims to be something online does not mean they are. Oh, BTW, I am an astronaut (see how easy that is). You allowed yourself to be used by fundies who want to take down JW for their own selfish (and often quite destructive purpose). The enemy of your enemy is NOT your friend. Funny, JW (regardless of what some people claim) do not take part in these false smear campaigns. Here’s an idea – leave people alone. “You knew it was a crocodile when you were offered a ride across the river”. It is hard to imagine you are truly this surprised. I do wish you healing for your depression and peace for your family. God can help with that.
Reply
 
 Denise Fitzpatrick says:

 May 15, 2015 at 12:22 pm

No one claiming to be perfect or without flaws is telling the truth. The truth of the Bible is being taught in the Kingdom Halls of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I do not go there looking for flaws in others as I am not flawless myself. We are all just a “Piece of dust” and many may not even be a whole piece. Jesus Christ left us a model to follow his steps closely NOT perfectly. I tell many people to search the Bible for the truth that sets men free. If one is searching for flaws in others, they are probably not searching for the Truth of God’s word, the Bible. They are finding what they are searching for. When I search for the knowledge of the Bible, I find it. I am not on a hunt to find the imperfections of others. We should continue to search for what really matters and that is not finding the faults of others. We must answer for our selves and not for the actions of others. The people are not perfect or without flaws, but the word of God, is perfect without flaws. Lets get the rafter out of our own eye, so that we can see clearly to get it out of others. The ONLY true God’s qualities are love, justice, wisdom and power and the GREATEST IS LOVE. Let’s focus on that.
Reply
 
 

 Unbaptised JW (adult) says:

 May 7, 2015 at 8:44 am

One thing all mankind is certain of is death. Life is so short. It makes hardly any difference when one dies before their “intended time”. Who decides what is/is – not a higher purpose for death before one’s time? It is a matter of conscience, so differs for each individual. The blood issue is IMO no more an issue than the fact that we have countless illnesses with no cure. People die all the time at all ages.
As far as where an estate is left, same as above. Assets belong to s/he who has earned them and as such, where they are left after death is of individual choosing. No one else has an honest say in the matter.
Fair disclosure – I am also “The irony” below. As an adult who chooses to agree (based on bible research) with what JW believe, I would love to see an honest debate from ex JW on the topic, based on scripture, rather than opinion. Blood, assets, disfellowshipping, etc are not a good basis for declaring JW a cult (as they are either bible requirements, or prohibitions). This IMHO is where your problems arise when aligning with fundamentalists. They disagree with the doctrine and that is all. It is shameless and dishonest self promotion. Sadly I have frequently seen page after page of misinformation and smear published by certain fundamental denominations against JW. If the information is untrue, of what value is it? Nothing but a hateful tool.
I disagree with atheists (obviously, I believe in God) however, I do respect individual rights to personal choices in life. I also very much respect this writer for allowing the comment section to be opened to the public. I always hope to see ex brothers and sisters happily return. But also respect their choice to not. There is no hatred, or judgment, and no elevation of self. I would love to see a conversation based in honesty. Again I wish for you to find peace and a happy family life.
Reply
 
 Gareth says:

 May 9, 2015 at 1:26 pm

Unbaptised JW, re: “I would love to see an honest debate from ex JW on the topic, based on scripture, …”
On the issue of blood, see: http://www.jehovahswitnessblog.com/blood-transfusions/why-jehovahs-witnesses-dont-accept-blood/
Especially part 3 for the Bible part of it. Respond there or here with your thoughts/comments on it. Or start a topic on jehovahs-witness.com if you feel up to it.
Reply
 

 Denise Fitzpatrick says:

 May 15, 2015 at 12:23 pm

Get a hold of the REAL life! Life is everlasting.
Reply
 
 Denise Fitzpatrick says:

 May 15, 2015 at 12:30 pm

By the way, keep studying, my friend!
Reply
 
 
 

 Excelsior! says:

 May 9, 2015 at 10:30 am

Unbaptised JW,
Oh dear! I found your opening comments so breathtakingly offensive that I am astonished that you would write them!
Do you have proof that your God exists? So there is no proof for any “afterlife” that you choose to believe.
Therefore, when someone, like my father, dies “before his time” due to late diagnosis, most people are extremely upset about it.
Bible research just is not enough, sir. You need to research the sciences, and secular history, if you want to get to the bottom of just what the bible really is.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses are a cult because they practice cultish techniques. I would suggest reading Mr Hassan’s excellent works on the subject. There are others available too.
I would be genuinely interested in your opinion of the child sexual abuse cover ups, and the advice and restrictions attached to domestic violence.
If you are a Christian, then your duty is clear. You need to help us hold the WTBTS to account for its policies that have damaged so many people.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 
 Denise Fitzpatrick says:

 May 15, 2015 at 12:28 pm

Why do we continue to slurr and talk against one another with no one being “Perfect”? When we do such things, it is as though, we think that we are ourselves are indeed perfect and that is sad. People will believe what they will and that is entirely their right. Talking against others is not doing anyone any good.
Reply
 
 Excelsior! says:

 May 21, 2015 at 5:40 am

Madam,
Pointing out criminal or immoral behaviour in a religion does not imply that the one exposing these things is perfect!
Do police constables have to be perfect to arrest a criminal suspect?
Do a Judge and Jury have to be perfect to try a criminal case?
Speaking against the WTBTS is entirely proper, as it has on many occasions, acted in ways that are wrong.
I hope that this comment helps you to see the problem with your argument.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 
 

 Denise Fitzpatrick says:

 May 15, 2015 at 12:36 pm

May I ask, “What do you mean”? Before his time? When would you say, his time should have been? Until he lived to be 90, 100, 103, etc? Do you think that you will ever see him again? Or can see him again? My mom and dad and other loved ones are not presently breathing at this time as well. My mom was 94 when she stopped breathing and my dad was 88. I am just “Curious” about your feelings on “Before his time”.
Reply
 
 Excelsior! says:

 May 20, 2015 at 6:25 am

Madam,
I use the term “before his time” to refer to the expected age of people here in England. My father could have expected to live for a further decade, I should imagine. Especially as my uncle, his older brother, is now 80.
That’s one more decade to see his grandchildren grow up and enjoy his retirement.
He did not get to have that.
I hope this clarifies my comment.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 

 Excelsior! says:

 May 20, 2015 at 6:49 am

Madam,
I shall never see my father again. He is dead.
To refer to dead people as not currently breathing tells me you believe that they will appear again somewhere.
You choose to believe that, as is your right. However, you have no proof whatsoever for your beliefs.
We know that all life on this planet is born, lives and then dies. That is the reality that we can all prove and believe as fact.
I do not expect to see or be with my father again, because once we die, then that is it!
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 
 

 Denise Fitzpatrick says:

 May 15, 2015 at 12:37 pm

May I ask, “What is a cultish technique”? Its just that I have never heard of the term. Just wondering.
Reply
 
 Excelsior! says:

 May 20, 2015 at 6:28 am

Madam,
This term refers to the techniques that cults use to control their members.
These include the “BITE model” as coined by Steve Hassan.
Behaviour control
Information control
Thought control
Emotional control
These are referred also as undue influence.
I hope this clarifies my comment.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 
 
 

 Karen says:

 May 9, 2015 at 1:13 pm

I’m so sorry you are getting such hateful responses, John; thank you for your very insightful comments & insights! I, too, have unfriended some from FB just because I cannot allow all the unasked for negativity. It takes a tremendous toll, when I’m just trying to move forward.
Reply
 
 Denise Fitzpatrick says:

 May 15, 2015 at 12:41 pm

All, please know that my comments here are directed to those who BELIEVE that there is a God. My questions and comments, of course would not be for those who do not believe in a Creator as being a powerful God.
Reply
 

 Denise Fitzpatrick says:

 May 15, 2015 at 12:43 pm

Karen, the hate that he is experiencing shows that he MUST be doing something right! Jesus stated, this “My sheep will be persecuted as I was”, if they hated me they will hate you. The hate that he is experiencing was already told to the followers! If I was not being hated(Without cause, as Jesus was) then I would wonder if I REALLY belonged to him!
Reply
 
 

 Denise Fitzpatrick says:

 May 15, 2015 at 12:46 pm

Well, if we are disagreeing with the words stated in the Bible, then we could not really be believers, this is why my comments and such are for those who first of all, “Believe”, and if not, it is for those who do not believe but who are seeking for something to help them to believe.(Not closed ears) Let me put it like that.
Reply
 

 Denise Fitzpatrick says:

 May 15, 2015 at 12:48 pm

Oh well, I am leaving the site for now, but will be checking my e-mails to see if anyone wants a serious and mature conversation with me. I am not going to argue or say bad things about people though. That’s just NOT my makeup! Have a great day.
Reply
 

 Rainbow says:

 May 16, 2015 at 1:24 am

I realized there is unimaginable pain and rage when a person is abandoned by their family and betrayed by their faith. I hope they find peace.
Lloyd, stay in grace and keep doing what you were born to do! Many thank you.
Reply
 

 Emmy Lou Desautell-Branco says:

 May 16, 2015 at 7:15 am

Hey John,
Don’t stop.
 Keep pushing
 Those people a lot of them either simply are jealous of your ability to speak put so freely and well or are offended too easily by uncomfortable truths.
I have sat in the shadows reading all of it. Jaw on table and stunned by their hypocrisy. All truth is necessary every view is important and valid if this corporation is to be exposed for what it is
Like water off a ducks back
 Let it be
You are right
 It’s a terrible fight
 A massive tug of war.
The only way
 to win the fight
 Is hide the truth no more!
Reply
 

 Clara says:

 May 17, 2015 at 12:22 pm

As Aristotle once said (and no one will argue his competency) “To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.” Being criticised means you’re something, so congrats – you can be proud of yourself!
Reply
 

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← Harmful beliefs – woman and her unborn child perish after she refuses a blood transfusion
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My response to the haters (and why I can’t always shake it off)
avatar
Posted on April 11, 2015

Abuse from fanatical Cedars-bashers like Tony Balchen (pictured) is beginning to take its toll
Abuse from fanatical Cedars-bashers like Tony Balchen (pictured) is beginning to take its toll

I suffer from depression, but even at my darkest moments, when my mind has briefly flirted with notions of suicide, I’ve always thought what a bad choice that would be.
There are just so many different ways a person’s life could be configured. So whenever it feels like there is no way out, I’ve always found myself able to reason that surely there MUST be another way of living that is less soul-destroying – even if the journey to that change of circumstances might be difficult.
Many of you will remember I was attacked towards the end of last year for voicing an opinion on “aggressive activism,” which is my definition for the goading, taunting and confronting of bewildered cult victims – either at places of worship or during their public preaching work – by indignant, vengeful exJWs.
In response to simply offering my opinion on this issue (doing so without naming any names), I was accused of being a stalker, a wife beater, a cult leader, a cyber-bully, and even a potential pedophile – with my baby daughter seemingly at risk from me.
As hurtful as this torrent of abuse has been, what has been even more alarming is the ease with which the ringleaders behind these accusations have managed to recruit a group of sympathizers, and manipulated these into believing that THEY are the true victims in this whole scenario – not me.
Also troubling is the complete lack of restraint and basic human decency from this mob, many of whom claim to be Christian. For example, two particularly vocal critics of mine called Mike and Kim are so passionate about bringing Jehovah’s Witnesses to Christ that they have apparently set up their own state-registered ministry.
These same people have sat in front of a camera to deliver a 90-minute tirade featuring all of the aforementioned accusations, apparently seeing no conflict with their Holy Book’s calls to “suffer evil” and “be peaceable with all men.”
Though I expect proponents of evangelical activism (“leave Watchtower and embrace our, correct version of Christianity”) to take issue with my openness about my agnosticism/atheism, I find it troubling that the likes of Mike and Kim have been so successful in exploiting the aggressive activism controversy as a smokescreen to pursue their agenda of trying to silence my agnostic views – to the point of hoodwinking even non-religious exJWs into flocking to their anti-Cedars banner.
When the backlash reached its zenith just before Christmas, I seriously considered breaking some of the tension with a light-hearted video in which I would sing a parody song aimed at debunking Mike and Kim’s accusation that I am obsessed with their daughter, who previously helped me with my work. I envisioned a video in which I would be seated at a piano, Gary Barlow-style, singing plaintively to a framed picture of her, delivering a mock confession of my love for her, and mourning that it was unrequited.
But thankfully I snapped out of doing this video when I remembered that the person in question has been known to suffer from depression. However funny the video might have been to some, and however successful it might have been at rubbishing the claims that I was fixated with this girl, how would I have felt if she had committed suicide soon after it was circulated? I would have felt utterly devastated, and responsible for her loss.
All about the money?
Since all of that, there has been a fresh wave of attacks. Apparently my already-long list of fabricated/embellished crimes has been added to, with claims that I am profiteering from my work as an activist (to the tune of over $10,000 per year), that I live in a “hole” of a country, that I make my wife work while I do nothing, that I “disfellowship” people who disagree with me, that I am fat and ugly (well, maybe that’s true), and that I have been too ready to defend myself in conversations with trolls on Facebook and YouTube.
I’ve mostly been able to shrug off all this mud-slinging, knowing full well I have nothing to hide.
As far as my finances are concerned – yes I have Google ads on my website, but so does JWfacts. Yes I have a PayPal button for donations, but so does JWstruggle (and a LOT of other exJW websites, none of which seem to be under siege for the heresy of accepting money). And I also plead guilty to having a Patreon button at the end of my videos for people who want to donate to my work – but nobody is forced to click through and pledge donations.
My articles and videos are available to people entirely free of charge, and will remain so.
Any proceeds from Google Ad impressions* ($125 per month), YouTube ad impressions ($110 per month), or regular donations ($63 per month) get ploughed straight into my business to help pay for new equipment and justify the considerable time spent away from my regular job (translating and proofreading) while doing research and producing content. (For example, my 2-hour rebuttal video to the Gerrit Losch JW broadcasting episode took three days to put together, which would be hard to justify if it wasn’t part of my job.)
There have been occasions where large, one-off donations have been made either to help our family (most notably when we had Jessica’s baby shower) or to assist with my activism (i.e. when two large donations were received to help fund our trip to London for the conference on undue influence) – but this money has never come with strings attached, i.e. that I must endorse Christianity and stay silent about my unbelief. My supporters have simply been willing to help out as the need arises, and they have been placed under no compulsion to do so.
Unlike many of the people who are styling me as a rich cult leader sponging off gormless followers and abuse victims, I don’t yet have a fridge, a TV, a sofa or a kitchen. I REALLY AM doing my activism because I want to free people both now and in the future from cult indoctrination. My work is offered freely, and I don’t see why I should be made to turn down acts of kindness when these are extended simply to appease my critics.
The only work I ever intend to charge for will be my book, which I will aim to price as reasonably as possible once it is finally finished and published. No doubt once it goes on sale I will receive a fresh wave of abuse from people who will quickly forget how much they paid to read the words of Steven Hassan, Jim Penton, Carl Olof Jonsson or Ray Franz and paint me as a greedy profiteer all over again – but it is pointless trying to keep such people happy.
Is blocking someone on Facebook “shunning?”
I have also come under fire for my practice of blocking people on Facebook who are either critical of my activism, or abusive towards me, or supportive/defensive of those who are abusive towards me. I fail to understand why I am obliged to use Facebook, not as a tool for keeping in touch with my friends and readers, but as an implement of ritual self-flagellation that I must use to entertain the scathing rants and banal sniping of my mostly-anonymous, mostly-evangelical critics on a daily basis.
Telling me I’m not allowed to block or unfriend people on Facebook who are nasty is like telling me I MUST stand and listen to random people shout at and berate me if I encounter them while out shopping. I am perfectly within my rights to walk away from any such situation and get on with whatever it was I was doing. I don’t HAVE to punish myself with nonsense just for the sake of it.
It’s worth remembering that nobody is forcing anyone to watch my videos OR read my blog articles. If you hate me and my work so much I have excellent news – you don’t HAVE to follow me or read/watch my work. You can do activism the way YOU want to do it, or find an activist whose videos and blogs are more to your liking. Or you can avoid taking in “apostate” material altogether, if that’s your problem.
And no, I am not in the business of “shunning” people who disagree with me. I am merely choosy about who my friends are. I have plenty of people on my Facebook friends list with whom I don’t see eye to eye on a range of issues, but I find they are able to put their points across without evangelizing or resorting to ad hominem insults and accusations, so I am only too happy to keep them in my circle and benefit from their perspective.
And frankly, I find the use of the word “shunning” in describing any situation other than estrangement from family or close friends to be an insult – especially by people who should know the difference between being prevented from commenting on a blog or Facebook page and having all contact with family terminated forever.
Taking its toll
Usually I am able to shrug off all the above silliness, content with the fact that I am doing the best I can for all the right motives, and making some modest headway in waking people up (if my email inbox is to be believed).
But today I was out mingling with some of my friends who live in my village, and something fairly innocuous happened that sent me spiraling into the realization that the level of abuse being directed at me from self-righteous keyboard warriors on the other side of the Atlantic really is starting to take its toll.
I didn’t feel suicidal, but I definitely felt a huge wave of sadness and futility.
I went home and talked to my wife Dijana about what I was feeling, and she told me she was feeling pressured by the situation too. Whenever I am talked about, or our family is talked about, by obsessive lunatics who are more fixated with me than they are with Watchtower, Dijana finds herself worrying and fretting over what effect this will have on me, and whether we are safe from these clearly disturbed individuals (bearing in mind we have already received two menacing cards through the post from an individual in America calling himself/herself “John Smith”).
john-smith-cards
What upsets Dijana most is that, amidst all this hatred and vitriol, she feels forced to put on a brave face for our daughter Jessica, because she is worried that if she lets her sadness show when spending time with our baby this might subconsciously rub off on her, or make her feel that she is somehow not living up to expectations.
Dijana also can’t help but feel enraged when she sees her picture (taken from our translation company website), being shared around on Facebook “hate Cedars” groups, the members of whom then speculate that she is the victim of an oppressive, abusive husband. If she were herself an outspoken activist, or vocal about anything beyond whale conservation, she could perhaps understand all the scrutiny – but she is content to let me get on with my activism and focus on being a mother, and thus finds it all very intrusive.
This conversation with Dijana, and the realization that the fanatical obsessions of a few troubled individuals in America are having a tangible impact on our family has led to my writing this article by way of pleading with any exJWs out there who might have been swayed by my attackers to apply some logic and reason, and show some compassion.
I am not a cult leader. I am not a leader of any sort, and would repudiate any attempts to make me one. I am an ordinary man with a wife and daughter who just happens to be an activist against a cruel cult. And yes, I happen to not be religious.
Of course I have made mistakes, and perhaps gone too far at times when confronting trolls and critics on Facebook and YouTube – but nothing I have said or done has even remotely warranted the tsunami of hatred and vitriol that has been directed against me and my family over the past few months.
A plea for decency
All I ask of my fellow ex cult-members is some basic human decency – the same instincts of solidarity and compassion that made me pull back from making a stupid piano video that I would have almost certainly regretted.
I am not a suicide threat, and my depression is manageable, but I do have a wife and baby daughter – and when you attack me with completely unfounded and specious allegations, you attack them as well. Dijana in particular really does feel the reverberations, to the point of wanting to write to some of the ringleaders herself.
It has long been a notable irony that the majority of opposition to my activism work comes, not from Watchtower or Jehovah’s Witnesses, but from my fellow ex-JWs. I’ve noticed from conversations with activists against other cults that this is not an isolated phenomenon. People who have exited other high-control groups have also been known to turn on each other, and make each other scapegoats for their issues and frustrations.
If it were only me who was taking the heat for having an opinion, and not being afraid to voice it, I think I could handle much of what I’ve been subjected to – content to simply block persistent trolls and fanatics who are hell-bent on character-assassinating me.
But when it starts to affect my family, I do feel a need to draw the line. This abuse has to stop. If you happen to be involved in any way, I implore you to please find something or someone else who is worthy of your frustrations. There are seven men in Brooklyn who export truckloads of pain and misery on a daily basis that I can strongly recommend.

new-cedars-signature2






*An ad impression is when an ad is shown on a page or video. Simply by having the ad appear on the blog page you are reading, or the YouTube video you are watching, I receive a small amount of money from Google, who in turn receive money from the company whose ad was shown.


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← Harmful beliefs – woman and her unborn child perish after she refuses a blood transfusion
Conti appeal: Watchtower’s punitive damages reversed but negligence for lack of field service supervision is affirmed →

212 Responses to My response to the haters (and why I can’t always shake it off)

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 The irony says:

 May 7, 2015 at 8:12 am

The irony is amazing to me. You have been deceived, not only because you allowed yourself to be, but because you invited it. Most activists have a mission and will stop at nothing in their attempt to see it through. You see, just because someone claims to be something online does not mean they are. Oh, BTW, I am an astronaut (see how easy that is). You allowed yourself to be used by fundies who want to take down JW for their own selfish (and often quite destructive purpose). The enemy of your enemy is NOT your friend. Funny, JW (regardless of what some people claim) do not take part in these false smear campaigns. Here’s an idea – leave people alone. “You knew it was a crocodile when you were offered a ride across the river”. It is hard to imagine you are truly this surprised. I do wish you healing for your depression and peace for your family. God can help with that.
Reply
 
 Denise Fitzpatrick says:

 May 15, 2015 at 12:22 pm

No one claiming to be perfect or without flaws is telling the truth. The truth of the Bible is being taught in the Kingdom Halls of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I do not go there looking for flaws in others as I am not flawless myself. We are all just a “Piece of dust” and many may not even be a whole piece. Jesus Christ left us a model to follow his steps closely NOT perfectly. I tell many people to search the Bible for the truth that sets men free. If one is searching for flaws in others, they are probably not searching for the Truth of God’s word, the Bible. They are finding what they are searching for. When I search for the knowledge of the Bible, I find it. I am not on a hunt to find the imperfections of others. We should continue to search for what really matters and that is not finding the faults of others. We must answer for our selves and not for the actions of others. The people are not perfect or without flaws, but the word of God, is perfect without flaws. Lets get the rafter out of our own eye, so that we can see clearly to get it out of others. The ONLY true God’s qualities are love, justice, wisdom and power and the GREATEST IS LOVE. Let’s focus on that.
Reply
 
 

 Unbaptised JW (adult) says:

 May 7, 2015 at 8:44 am

One thing all mankind is certain of is death. Life is so short. It makes hardly any difference when one dies before their “intended time”. Who decides what is/is – not a higher purpose for death before one’s time? It is a matter of conscience, so differs for each individual. The blood issue is IMO no more an issue than the fact that we have countless illnesses with no cure. People die all the time at all ages.
As far as where an estate is left, same as above. Assets belong to s/he who has earned them and as such, where they are left after death is of individual choosing. No one else has an honest say in the matter.
Fair disclosure – I am also “The irony” below. As an adult who chooses to agree (based on bible research) with what JW believe, I would love to see an honest debate from ex JW on the topic, based on scripture, rather than opinion. Blood, assets, disfellowshipping, etc are not a good basis for declaring JW a cult (as they are either bible requirements, or prohibitions). This IMHO is where your problems arise when aligning with fundamentalists. They disagree with the doctrine and that is all. It is shameless and dishonest self promotion. Sadly I have frequently seen page after page of misinformation and smear published by certain fundamental denominations against JW. If the information is untrue, of what value is it? Nothing but a hateful tool.
I disagree with atheists (obviously, I believe in God) however, I do respect individual rights to personal choices in life. I also very much respect this writer for allowing the comment section to be opened to the public. I always hope to see ex brothers and sisters happily return. But also respect their choice to not. There is no hatred, or judgment, and no elevation of self. I would love to see a conversation based in honesty. Again I wish for you to find peace and a happy family life.
Reply
 
 Gareth says:

 May 9, 2015 at 1:26 pm

Unbaptised JW, re: “I would love to see an honest debate from ex JW on the topic, based on scripture, …”
On the issue of blood, see: http://www.jehovahswitnessblog.com/blood-transfusions/why-jehovahs-witnesses-dont-accept-blood/
Especially part 3 for the Bible part of it. Respond there or here with your thoughts/comments on it. Or start a topic on jehovahs-witness.com if you feel up to it.
Reply
 

 Denise Fitzpatrick says:

 May 15, 2015 at 12:23 pm

Get a hold of the REAL life! Life is everlasting.
Reply
 
 Denise Fitzpatrick says:

 May 15, 2015 at 12:30 pm

By the way, keep studying, my friend!
Reply
 
 
 

 Excelsior! says:

 May 9, 2015 at 10:30 am

Unbaptised JW,
Oh dear! I found your opening comments so breathtakingly offensive that I am astonished that you would write them!
Do you have proof that your God exists? So there is no proof for any “afterlife” that you choose to believe.
Therefore, when someone, like my father, dies “before his time” due to late diagnosis, most people are extremely upset about it.
Bible research just is not enough, sir. You need to research the sciences, and secular history, if you want to get to the bottom of just what the bible really is.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses are a cult because they practice cultish techniques. I would suggest reading Mr Hassan’s excellent works on the subject. There are others available too.
I would be genuinely interested in your opinion of the child sexual abuse cover ups, and the advice and restrictions attached to domestic violence.
If you are a Christian, then your duty is clear. You need to help us hold the WTBTS to account for its policies that have damaged so many people.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 
 Denise Fitzpatrick says:

 May 15, 2015 at 12:28 pm

Why do we continue to slurr and talk against one another with no one being “Perfect”? When we do such things, it is as though, we think that we are ourselves are indeed perfect and that is sad. People will believe what they will and that is entirely their right. Talking against others is not doing anyone any good.
Reply
 
 Excelsior! says:

 May 21, 2015 at 5:40 am

Madam,
Pointing out criminal or immoral behaviour in a religion does not imply that the one exposing these things is perfect!
Do police constables have to be perfect to arrest a criminal suspect?
Do a Judge and Jury have to be perfect to try a criminal case?
Speaking against the WTBTS is entirely proper, as it has on many occasions, acted in ways that are wrong.
I hope that this comment helps you to see the problem with your argument.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 
 

 Denise Fitzpatrick says:

 May 15, 2015 at 12:36 pm

May I ask, “What do you mean”? Before his time? When would you say, his time should have been? Until he lived to be 90, 100, 103, etc? Do you think that you will ever see him again? Or can see him again? My mom and dad and other loved ones are not presently breathing at this time as well. My mom was 94 when she stopped breathing and my dad was 88. I am just “Curious” about your feelings on “Before his time”.
Reply
 
 Excelsior! says:

 May 20, 2015 at 6:25 am

Madam,
I use the term “before his time” to refer to the expected age of people here in England. My father could have expected to live for a further decade, I should imagine. Especially as my uncle, his older brother, is now 80.
That’s one more decade to see his grandchildren grow up and enjoy his retirement.
He did not get to have that.
I hope this clarifies my comment.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 

 Excelsior! says:

 May 20, 2015 at 6:49 am

Madam,
I shall never see my father again. He is dead.
To refer to dead people as not currently breathing tells me you believe that they will appear again somewhere.
You choose to believe that, as is your right. However, you have no proof whatsoever for your beliefs.
We know that all life on this planet is born, lives and then dies. That is the reality that we can all prove and believe as fact.
I do not expect to see or be with my father again, because once we die, then that is it!
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 
 

 Denise Fitzpatrick says:

 May 15, 2015 at 12:37 pm

May I ask, “What is a cultish technique”? Its just that I have never heard of the term. Just wondering.
Reply
 
 Excelsior! says:

 May 20, 2015 at 6:28 am

Madam,
This term refers to the techniques that cults use to control their members.
These include the “BITE model” as coined by Steve Hassan.
Behaviour control
Information control
Thought control
Emotional control
These are referred also as undue influence.
I hope this clarifies my comment.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 
 
 

 Karen says:

 May 9, 2015 at 1:13 pm

I’m so sorry you are getting such hateful responses, John; thank you for your very insightful comments & insights! I, too, have unfriended some from FB just because I cannot allow all the unasked for negativity. It takes a tremendous toll, when I’m just trying to move forward.
Reply
 
 Denise Fitzpatrick says:

 May 15, 2015 at 12:41 pm

All, please know that my comments here are directed to those who BELIEVE that there is a God. My questions and comments, of course would not be for those who do not believe in a Creator as being a powerful God.
Reply
 

 Denise Fitzpatrick says:

 May 15, 2015 at 12:43 pm

Karen, the hate that he is experiencing shows that he MUST be doing something right! Jesus stated, this “My sheep will be persecuted as I was”, if they hated me they will hate you. The hate that he is experiencing was already told to the followers! If I was not being hated(Without cause, as Jesus was) then I would wonder if I REALLY belonged to him!
Reply
 
 

 Denise Fitzpatrick says:

 May 15, 2015 at 12:46 pm

Well, if we are disagreeing with the words stated in the Bible, then we could not really be believers, this is why my comments and such are for those who first of all, “Believe”, and if not, it is for those who do not believe but who are seeking for something to help them to believe.(Not closed ears) Let me put it like that.
Reply
 

 Denise Fitzpatrick says:

 May 15, 2015 at 12:48 pm

Oh well, I am leaving the site for now, but will be checking my e-mails to see if anyone wants a serious and mature conversation with me. I am not going to argue or say bad things about people though. That’s just NOT my makeup! Have a great day.
Reply
 

 Rainbow says:

 May 16, 2015 at 1:24 am

I realized there is unimaginable pain and rage when a person is abandoned by their family and betrayed by their faith. I hope they find peace.
Lloyd, stay in grace and keep doing what you were born to do! Many thank you.
Reply
 

 Emmy Lou Desautell-Branco says:

 May 16, 2015 at 7:15 am

Hey John,
Don’t stop.
 Keep pushing
 Those people a lot of them either simply are jealous of your ability to speak put so freely and well or are offended too easily by uncomfortable truths.
I have sat in the shadows reading all of it. Jaw on table and stunned by their hypocrisy. All truth is necessary every view is important and valid if this corporation is to be exposed for what it is
Like water off a ducks back
 Let it be
You are right
 It’s a terrible fight
 A massive tug of war.
The only way
 to win the fight
 Is hide the truth no more!
Reply
 

 Clara says:

 May 17, 2015 at 12:22 pm

As Aristotle once said (and no one will argue his competency) “To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.” Being criticised means you’re something, so congrats – you can be proud of yourself!
Reply
 

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← What is JWsurvey’s approach to science, religion and the bible?
Jehovah’s Witness New Orleans airport machete attacker dies →

Gregorio Smith gives JWsurvey readers exclusive offer as he takes “Truth Be Told” on European Tour
avatar
Posted on March 20, 2015

Filmmaker Gregorio Smith is taking his production to audiences in Europe
Filmmaker Gregorio Smith is taking his production to audiences in Europe

As the HBO film “Going Clear” earns rave reviews for shining a light on the inner workings of the Scientology cult, it is worth remembering that the Watchtower organization is not without its own hard-hitting film expose.
Released online last December, Gregorio Smith’s “Truth Be Told” is an interview-based documentary that offers outsiders a rare glimpse of what it is like to be born and raised as a Jehovah’s Witness.
A series of compelling interviewees, including retired American mixed martial arts fighter Nate Quarry, reveal the regimented structures of their JW childhoods and explain how their strict upbringing has effected them in profound, far-reaching ways.
Gregorio is currently in the UK where he will be meeting with cult experts, fellow former JWs (including victims of Watchtower’s mishandling of child sex abuse), lawyers, and a member of parliament.
In addition to leafleting in London’s Leicester Square on Saturday, March 28th to promote Truth Be Told, Gregorio also plans to visit the London Bethel the same weekend to capture footage for use in a future film project.


After leaving the UK on March 29th, Gregorio will be taking his tour across the Channel to mainland Europe, with events planned in Belgium and Switzerland before he jets back to New York on April 2nd.
To commemorate this campaign, Gregorio has kindly agreed to extend a special promotional offer to readers of JWsurvey. If you would like to download your own copy of the film, you can do so from the official website for a reduced rate using the special codes below:
◾Use “JWSURVEY10” for $10 off the Deluxe Edition (25% discount)
◾Use “UKXJW5” for $5 off the Special Edition (33% discount)
Gregorio is also interested in hearing directly from anyone living in close proximity to his tour route (Glasgow/Braunston/Cheltenham/London, UK – Ghent, Belgium – Zurich, Switzerland) who would be interested in hosting a screening, or just meeting up. The email address to use is: info@hereliesthetruth.com
Future promotional campaigns are also planned in Western-Central Europe, Scandinavia, and South Africa.
Especially since the launch of JW Broadcasting, an overt attempt by Watchtower to broaden the scope of their indoctrination and coercion, audio/visual media such as Truth Be Told has taken on added significance.
There is a war being waged to counter the organization’s cult influence and inoculate the ordinary public against becoming ensnared. With so much at stake, the contribution of Gregorio and others like him can never be overestimated.

new-cedars-signature2






Further reading…
◾Gregorio’s Huffington Post interview
◾Here Lies The Truth website
◾Gregorio’s interview on JWpodcast


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← What is JWsurvey’s approach to science, religion and the bible?
Jehovah’s Witness New Orleans airport machete attacker dies →

52 Responses to Gregorio Smith gives JWsurvey readers exclusive offer as he takes “Truth Be Told” on European Tour

 StrongHaiku says:

 March 20, 2015 at 10:02 am

I bought and saw “Truth Be Told” when it first came out. It was absolutely beautiful. Gregorio Smith has managed to tell the stories in a masterful way. I hope to see future documentaries from him on any topic.
If you have someone in your life – i.e. friends, significant others, etc. that want to understand what your life was like as JW, this documentary is invaluable. I saw it with my girlfriend and, until she saw the documentary, she really did not fully grasp what it was like to be JW and how that impacts you the rest of your life, relationships, perspective, etc. We cried together. We laughed together. Great film.
Reply
 

 Rowland Nelken says:

 March 20, 2015 at 10:11 am

Great film. It deserves wide exposure and publicity.
High time the goons in charge of the cult were put on the spot and made to account for their cruel and destructive behaviour.
Reply
 

 HEAVYHEART says:

 March 20, 2015 at 11:32 am

I purchased this just half an hour ago. I am in tears. I can’t believe what I subjected my children to. I am so sorry. The footage of the two children standing at the door with magazines in their hands has really touched a raw nerve. I have been out for over fifteen years and they still have a hold on my mind.
Reply
 

 Stillstruggling says:

 March 20, 2015 at 11:48 am

I am trying to purchase this download but the $5 off code isn’t working.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 20, 2015 at 11:52 am

Sorry about that Stillstruggling. Would you be able to email Gregorio on the email address in the article and raise it with him, just so it can be fixed and others don’t have the same problem? Thanks! :)
Reply
 
 

 Stillstruggling says:

 March 20, 2015 at 11:58 am

Ok, sure, I’ll do that. By the way, thank you so much for all of the work that you do for us. It’s really hard to let go of the Watchtower thinking and the guilt that comes with doubting. I appreciate you and others that are brave enough to do this work.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 20, 2015 at 12:02 pm

It’s an absolute pleasure. Thank you for the kind sentiments. :)
Reply
 
 

 Stillstruggling says:

 March 20, 2015 at 12:10 pm

Coupon fixed!
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 20, 2015 at 3:15 pm

That’s great news, thanks for letting us know! :)
Reply
 
 

 Big Jim says:

 March 20, 2015 at 12:31 pm

I am sure this a great documentary. I have not seen it as yet. I know there is a lot of stress in our religion. I am a Jehovah’s Witness and have been for 55 years. I have seen it all. I started out with the best job possible and lost that because of not working on Catholic Church property where they housed sexual abuse. I took a moral stand. I will not work on any property where there is even the hint of sexual abuse. Neither will you, even if you get fired for it. You may not get another job for years. But you have taken your stand, and that is more important. I see only Jehovah. I am reminded of the first century Christians. John the Baptist ended up getting his head chopped off because he exposed the immoral King. Jesus was murdered. Stephen was stoned to death. Other Christians were put in prisons and used as entertainment in the arenas where they were torn apart by lions as families while hanging onto their children. Later Christians were executed by the ax as well. Back then, I suspect you would have this site there, complaining about all the stuff that was happening. Can we imagine a religion telling its people not to throw a pinch of incense to the bust of Caesar. And the Romans saying to do that or they will be ripped apart by lions. Now we can say That is wacked for sure! But the Christian religion declared that very issue. Ever since man fell into sin, Satan has been messing with worshippers of God. That means I cannot complain. I am in good company. And I am alive yet. One more thing, there was a documentary on the History Channel entitled “Jesus Christ, Cult Master.” And he was none of that. But the accusations were there, false accusations. What is the answer? I will say it again. Close down all religions, including mine. Don’t need it. Serve God on a personal basis. Stop all holidays. No more tax exempt religions and collection plates. Sell of their properties for back taxes or remodel them for use elsewhere. I do not live for this life which is filled with misery. I live for the new life that is yet to come. 70 to 80 years now of stupidity is worth billions of years into eternity. In conclusion, without religion, no more sexual abuse or spiritual or emotional abuse by neurotics with power. Without religion or a restraint, someone messes with us or our families, we take them out back and best them until they are unrecognizable. Let them heal in the hospital. Then beat them some more. Without religion, there will be no laws to stop us, no consciences to hinder us. Get rid of religion. Keep beating up JWs. But include the other religions as well. Remember, 24 of the 27 nations that fought World War I claimed to be Christian. If the so called Christian religions told the governments they are not getting our congregations to fight their battles, there would not have been a World War I, that was 7 times worse than all the wars put together in human history. That’s why they put a number on it. One. Therefore, all religions have a lot of answering to do. Let’s line them up, expose, expose, expose. Go after their congregations and picket the Churches with signs declaring how rotten they are. Burn Christmas trees on their tax exempt lawns, as tax payers. Easy to prove. It was illegal to celebrate Christmas in the USA until the middle 1800s because the holiday was pagan. Step on the colored Easter eggs in their cute hunts. What is that all about anyway? So, get rid of all religions, period. I will laugh until I cry when that happens. So, do as I do. Tell your friends and relatives and neighbors that their religions should get shut down. That the United Nations is poised and ready to do just that. I love this site. But we have to include all the filthy religions on the planet. In the meantime, I will continue to serve the God of the heavens. With a church, or without one. From my youth up, I wanted to be a minister. And I sure am not going to stop now. No more corrupt religions. Nor more hypocritical congregation members. No more holidays. No more Ladies Aid banquets. No more collection plates. No more anything to do with religion. Check out the Middle East. The governments are getting fed up with religion. And so are you. And so am I. So, start a list of all religions on this site, and go after each one and expose them. That should be easy to do. Just read the newspapers.
Reply
 
 anonymous says:

 March 20, 2015 at 12:50 pm

Big Jim. What is your point? You say you have been one of Jehovah’s Witnesses for 55 years. I was for 50 years, baptized at 20 in 1966. Were you baptized at a young age? Are you trying to say in your comments that all religions have problems and so why just pick on Jehovah’s Witnesses? I don’t understand what you are trying to say. We know you are being facetious but why?
Reply
 
 GEM says:

 March 22, 2015 at 7:42 am

@Anonymous: I think I can see the line of reasoning of Big Jim…even if it reads a little if it is “Bourbon” laced.
I hope I can appeal to your memory of the mid-’60’s when WT entered into our world as a family.
Initially I was impressed by affirmations that I was “one of Jehovah’s Witnesses”. This was not to be used as a brand name. It was “Here I am send me”.
As the post “Truth” book world evolved it became clear that this was becoming another American born “fast food” super chain. I used to cringe as speakers, for example, were introduced as representing the “Watchtower Society”.
No,… he was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses speaking on behalf of the worldwide association.
Gradually WT developed the cult-like jargon and speech that is now characteristic of it. Suddenly, WT wasn’t a printing and publishing tool working for us…but we were working for it.
When I did my stint at Bethel, this became painful obvious. Folk actually lived in fear of men, rather than Jehovah.
I hope this film brings all the anxiety of this tragic homogenised religion to everyone’s attention.
Some, would have things stripped back to their own Spiritual Pathway again…where, Religion does not hold them in fear… whilst others would be happy to continue their lives with Atheistic views, free from the “Opium of the People”.
I hope my reasoning is just as lucid as Jim’s Bourbon!
Reply
 
 

 ForestDaughter says:

 March 21, 2015 at 8:32 am

It’s interesting what you said about the Ancient Romans, because in actual fact they were tolerant to all religions; there being many diverse religions in Rome each having their own temples. Unfortunately, one new religion didn’t want freedom of worship for anyone else except for themselves, and were intent on destruction to that end. That’s the reason the Christians were being put to death; not because they were the ‘true’ religion, but because they were causing a bloody nuisance of themselves. So you can’t really cry ‘persecution’ when it’s your religion that started the persecution in the first place!
Reply
 

 Stevan says:

 March 29, 2015 at 5:32 am

My friend,
 The world wars you refer to were not waged in the Name of Christ!
Reply
 
 

 Big Jim says:

 March 20, 2015 at 12:43 pm

Hey, why is he charging for this documentary? If he really cares about truth, give it for free. Matthew 10:8 says, “You received free, give free.” Spread the word free. Get a part time job somewhere else and give these away for free. It is time to reject this commercial self centered world and prove we have what it takes.
Reply
 
 Shanti says:

 March 20, 2015 at 1:19 pm

Oh! If Watchtower did things for free, Sam wouldn’t be wearing that Rolex.
Reply
 

 FEELINGSICKTOMYSTOMACH says:

 March 20, 2015 at 3:16 pm

Why should he do it for free. He is not a charity.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 20, 2015 at 3:17 pm

FEELINGSICKTOMYSTOMACH – Very well said. I do despair sometimes at how ignorant and anal some people can be.
Reply
 
 
 

 Big Jim says:

 March 20, 2015 at 12:47 pm

A website is the answer. Cheap. Put the documentary on the website so people can download it from there onto their computers. No paperwork. No cost. All electronics. That way the message will get to more people. Unless, this is all about the money.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 20, 2015 at 2:56 pm

I’m scratching my head trying to figure out whether you’re a cynical troll or just plain stupid. Who the hell do you think you are to tell a filmmaker to give his work away for free? Or should the same rule apply to anyone who expends their time, creative energy and resources writing books about Watchtower and Jehovah’s Witnesses? You expect people to “give free” as though we are all under bible law, but I wonder whether you would be so willing to work for days, weeks, months or years without any form of payment apart from the positive impact of your work. Do you even have any similar work that you have given out for free, or is this just something you expect from others?
Reply
 
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 20, 2015 at 1:52 pm

What cracks me up is how jw’s use the bible as some kind of “Manual of Life”. Like you can solve all domestic, social, business, etc conflicts by referring to a particular verse in the bible. “Yes honey, I know it’s a problem, but I am supposed to love you and you are supposed to obey me – bleep bleep bleep…” It’s easier to be a robot than to think. They remind me of ostriches with heads buried in the sand, oblivious to reality and life.
Reply
 

 Pickled brain says:

 March 20, 2015 at 4:06 pm

The Watchtower Organisation NEVER gives anything for free. It Blackmails people emotionally to give their time,energy,free labour & money in the terms of
 Donations,wills,Real Estate,stocks&shares,etc .If we give to JEHOVAH??? Meaning the Watchtower Organistion then we will get Eternal Life!!
Reply
 
 David Martin says:

 March 21, 2015 at 5:17 pm

What?? You make not a single intelligible thought. Even in the days of Jesus, did they contribute. But you probably would say Jesus is a myth as well.
Reply
 
 anonymous says:

 March 22, 2015 at 6:32 am

David, can you prove Jesus wasn’t a myth?
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 22, 2015 at 4:23 pm

Jesus is a myth as well.
Reply
 
 
 

 Grace says:

 March 20, 2015 at 10:23 pm

Good one Pickled Brain. There’s always a catch with the WT.
Reply
 

 airborne says:

 March 20, 2015 at 10:23 pm

Thanks to all responsible for making this movie available. I purchased a copy for future reference. Much better than any donation I made to the Watchtower Corporation.
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 21, 2015 at 2:51 am

Definition of “apostate”: Someone who has come to his senses
Reply
 
 Charles Costante says:

 March 21, 2015 at 3:04 am

Love that, Neal!
Reply
 

 Alan says:

 March 22, 2015 at 2:24 am

Yes. I agree, but also the WTBTS definition of an apostate is one who falls away from the “truth” I ask you this, “How can this be a true definition when they never had the truth in the first place?”
Reply
 
 Charles Costante says:

 March 22, 2015 at 2:40 am

Exactly, Alan! We fell away from the “Bovine Excreta”!
Reply
 
 
 

 JWIntellect says:

 March 21, 2015 at 11:57 am

Unfortunately, I purchased the special edition of Truth Be Told before this special discount offer came about.
I would love to host a screening of this film on my campus.
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 21, 2015 at 12:55 pm

Sometimes when jw’s, like my mother, talk about the “End”, I just agree and say, Yeah, it will all be over by next year. Then something strange happens. They seem to tense up, and keep quiet, or say something like, Well no, not that soon. I don’t believe jehovah’s witnesses really want the “End” to come. They just like running around scaring people, like Chicken Little. That’s what they look like out in the street – chickens.
 I think deep down, organizations like WT know what will happen if jesus comes back. He’s gonna kick their asses for using his name and misrepresenting him all these years and centuries!!! :)
Reply
 
 Pickled brain says:

 March 21, 2015 at 4:20 pm

@ Neal Krouni .KEEP Your LIFE SIMPLE Brothers.!!! The END is NEAR??? Well Nearly Near!!!
 When I look at the way the GB & Helpers??dress&FLAUNT their Wealth. NEW CARS every 3 years, 5 year Bethel Building Plans in Warwick (Plush new HQ) ,Patterson & Walkill!!
 Now 80 acre New Bethel in England at Chelmsford to be finished in 5 years in 2020!! A letter read out asking for Donations for 5 years & free Labour & any Brothers who are Architects, Structural & Civil Engineers( all require 5 years at University)
 Then all 7 MEN of GB & Helpers wear Flashy Suits,Watches& Rings on a Snazzy TV Set !!
 Now Bros& Sisters please Downsize the way you live& work for free at Bethel & Donate all your assets to us because THE END is NEAR??? Ermmm!!! 1874(CHRISTs supposed presence) 1799 ( beginning of Last Days ) 1914,1915 End of System!! All in Studies in the Scriptures!! 1925(Resurrection of Abraham,Isaac,David,Noah,Jeremiah etc) 1942 put off having children as ARMAGEDDON is near ;all prophesied by Rutherford & 1975 by Franz!!
 I SMELL BIG RATS exploiting innocent gullible JWs!! I vote for Anthony MORRIS & Stephn Letts as KING RATS!!
Reply
 
 David Martin says:

 March 21, 2015 at 5:23 pm

I wonder what size rock you guys will try to hide under. Anyways….I’ll be thinking of you.
 p.s. have you noticed how there only a couple of you who go back and forth, making such comments. Kind of like giving each other “high fives”. Have you thought about why that might be?
Reply
 
 Big D says:

 March 21, 2015 at 5:59 pm

Ha ha ha! Way more than “a couple of us,” Dave.
Just wait until the Conti lawsuit, with millions in punitive damages, is eventually upheld by the California Court of Appeals. The verdict will be out very soon. The legal precedent set by this will result in a massive landslide of sexual abuse lawsuits going forward. Your donations will go towards the defense of these sick pedophiles and the Watchtower’s protective policies. The real question is…what rock will YOU hide under, while the Watchtower’s foundations crumble all around you. :-)
Reply
 
 Big D says:

 March 21, 2015 at 6:03 pm

Oh…and I wonder if your district overseer knows that you are visiting, and actively participating in ‘APOSTATE’ websites!!!

 
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 22, 2015 at 4:05 pm

Oh! Oh! I know! It’s because it’s so much fun dissing Jehovah’s Witnesses!!!
HIGH FIVE BRO!!!
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 22, 2015 at 4:12 pm

But the fact that you’re thinking of me gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. Thanx.
Reply
 
 
 

 Barry Williams says:

 March 28, 2015 at 8:56 am

Very we’ll said!!!!
Reply
 
 

 Grace says:

 March 21, 2015 at 9:23 pm

A big high 5 from here!
Reply
 
 Pickled brain says:

 March 21, 2015 at 10:35 pm

@David Martin . You NAUGHTY NAUGHTY JW .Visiting Apostate & commenting on Apostate websites can get you Reproved & continual BAD Association can get you DisfellowshippEd !! Even if you are only a JW Apologist can’t you see the Child Abuse a policies of Watchtower are EVIL .Go onto YouTube & look at Jose Lopez trial & Candace Conti & Dozens of others & see the CRUEL HEARTLESS way these Children at the time of the ABUSE took place how the Elders were advised to handle these cases & thousands of others(23,000) database!
 Oh & there are thousands of JWs that read this SITE who are JWs but DON’T comment but Silently agree like I did for months before I plucked up the courage to comment Because of the FEAR Watchtower instill in people Not to mix with BAD Associations ( 1 Corinthians 15v.33)
Reply
 
 Pickled brain says:

 March 21, 2015 at 11:01 pm

The GOVERNING BODY Are LIARS!!
 Look at new Video on TV.JW.ORG under ‘100 years of Kingdom Rule’
Sam Herd says the bible students knew 1914 was a pivotal year . They knew something was going to happen but were Uncertain what would!!! THAT IS A LIE!!!
 Russell had published 6 volumes of ‘Studies in the Scriptures by 1913 & had PRINTED CHRIST PRESENCE had taken place in 1874 & LAST DAYS started in 1799 & All Governments & Religion would be Destroyed by 1914 & the Bible Students still alive would go to Heaven! THIS IS IN PRINT!! It Cannot be DENIED!! SAM HERD is a LIAR !! If the GB can be so Blatantly Lying about this Then you Cannot trust them what ELSE they will LIE about!!
Reply
 
 Big D says:

 March 22, 2015 at 5:11 am

Can anyone tell if Herd is wearing his gold pinkie ring? I saw him lift his right hand momentarily, in the vid, but I wasn’t fast enough to freeze it on that frame.
Reply
 
 Neal Krouni says:

 March 22, 2015 at 3:59 pm

What I want to know is, Is he wearing tight pants? :) :) :)

 
 
 
 
 

 zeebo says:

 March 22, 2015 at 12:17 am

Guys I bought this a while ago and it’s great. The download option can be fussy but the watch online is fine. If there wasn’t a fee to watch then i would have asked how i could donate.. this isn’t some corporation like time warner, its a real guy who invested years of his life and creativity to do this for us… ffs lets pay the man!
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 23, 2015 at 3:28 am

@ Pickled brain
Maybe we should start referring to the GB as the new “RAT PACK”! :)
Reply
 
 Pickled brain says:

 March 23, 2015 at 4:20 am

@Neale Krouni . RAT PACk good idea!! Frank Sinatra,Dean Martin & Sammy Davis Jnr alias ANTHONY MORRIS,Geoffrey Jackson& Sam Herd ???Cant get Bigger Rats!!!
Reply
 
 

 theGreenWitness says:

 March 26, 2015 at 5:40 am

Now, i don’t have the right to dictate how the creator of this documentary makes the film available. Its obvious a lot of hard work has gone into making this. Personally, i am a little saddened the film is behind a $10 pay wall. If it was me, i would make donations a prominent part of the viewing experience and perhaps have a paid deluxe edition. To me, the essence of having a basic free-to-view version of the film would definitely drive it to reach more people and easily quash any claims of profiteering. Not trying to provoke an argument, just sayin’
Reply
 

 nightstalker says:

 March 27, 2015 at 12:40 pm

I was advised to check out this site. I am not of this religion, or any religion. My life has been military since I was in my early 20s. I am currently with the CIA, almost retired, and seeking excitement in my older years. I suppose I have been spoiled by my history. I cannot reveal much about me as yet due to protocol. Whatever is going on here is interesting. There appears to be a ot of anger. From what I am gathering, justified anger. So be it. I will just sit back and continue reading reports as they come in, and I am sure there will be plenty of that. I have been around the world and have seen it all. A common denominator rings true in all problems throughout the planet. And that is a tragedy. At the core of that is exactly what all of you are discussing.
Reply
 

 pixie says:

 March 27, 2015 at 1:05 pm

curious as to why someone not raised in this belief or converted to it would care? maybe we have been a big fish bowl all along to see if people will give in when it comes to their own goals and devote themselves to God. the tragedy is our sweet hard working members are True Believers (a book by Eric Hoffer) read that, sir and you will learn more than here. this is a site mostly for healing. you say you work in Maryland, that is great! read a book called Opium, a history. it will add to your appreciation of the original 13 colonies, and the crab harvest is great this year. again I cannot see why you would care about our bible club if you have not been inspired or hurt by it.
Reply
 

 Excelsior! says:

 March 29, 2015 at 6:09 am

David Martin,
I will not be hiding under rocks! My conscience is clear. I have freedom of speech on Judgement Day, because I have love for my fellow human beings. 1 John 4.
How is your conscience, Mr Martin? Are you filled with a warm fuzzy feeling that your religion has covered up child abuse, and allowed paedophiles to continue to abuse children?
Are you filled with a warm glow that women are advised to stay with their abusive partners? Do you smile with glee when they are denied the chance to divorce and marry again?
I could go on, but you get the point, I hope, Mr Martin.
How are these policies in any way Christian? Your time would be better served in thorough and independent research on your religion, rather than trolling us with threats of death at Armageddon.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 

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← What is JWsurvey’s approach to science, religion and the bible?
Jehovah’s Witness New Orleans airport machete attacker dies →

Gregorio Smith gives JWsurvey readers exclusive offer as he takes “Truth Be Told” on European Tour
avatar
Posted on March 20, 2015

Filmmaker Gregorio Smith is taking his production to audiences in Europe
Filmmaker Gregorio Smith is taking his production to audiences in Europe

As the HBO film “Going Clear” earns rave reviews for shining a light on the inner workings of the Scientology cult, it is worth remembering that the Watchtower organization is not without its own hard-hitting film expose.
Released online last December, Gregorio Smith’s “Truth Be Told” is an interview-based documentary that offers outsiders a rare glimpse of what it is like to be born and raised as a Jehovah’s Witness.
A series of compelling interviewees, including retired American mixed martial arts fighter Nate Quarry, reveal the regimented structures of their JW childhoods and explain how their strict upbringing has effected them in profound, far-reaching ways.
Gregorio is currently in the UK where he will be meeting with cult experts, fellow former JWs (including victims of Watchtower’s mishandling of child sex abuse), lawyers, and a member of parliament.
In addition to leafleting in London’s Leicester Square on Saturday, March 28th to promote Truth Be Told, Gregorio also plans to visit the London Bethel the same weekend to capture footage for use in a future film project.


After leaving the UK on March 29th, Gregorio will be taking his tour across the Channel to mainland Europe, with events planned in Belgium and Switzerland before he jets back to New York on April 2nd.
To commemorate this campaign, Gregorio has kindly agreed to extend a special promotional offer to readers of JWsurvey. If you would like to download your own copy of the film, you can do so from the official website for a reduced rate using the special codes below:
◾Use “JWSURVEY10” for $10 off the Deluxe Edition (25% discount)
◾Use “UKXJW5” for $5 off the Special Edition (33% discount)
Gregorio is also interested in hearing directly from anyone living in close proximity to his tour route (Glasgow/Braunston/Cheltenham/London, UK – Ghent, Belgium – Zurich, Switzerland) who would be interested in hosting a screening, or just meeting up. The email address to use is: info@hereliesthetruth.com
Future promotional campaigns are also planned in Western-Central Europe, Scandinavia, and South Africa.
Especially since the launch of JW Broadcasting, an overt attempt by Watchtower to broaden the scope of their indoctrination and coercion, audio/visual media such as Truth Be Told has taken on added significance.
There is a war being waged to counter the organization’s cult influence and inoculate the ordinary public against becoming ensnared. With so much at stake, the contribution of Gregorio and others like him can never be overestimated.

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Further reading…
◾Gregorio’s Huffington Post interview
◾Here Lies The Truth website
◾Gregorio’s interview on JWpodcast


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← What is JWsurvey’s approach to science, religion and the bible?
Jehovah’s Witness New Orleans airport machete attacker dies →

52 Responses to Gregorio Smith gives JWsurvey readers exclusive offer as he takes “Truth Be Told” on European Tour

 StrongHaiku says:

 March 20, 2015 at 10:02 am

I bought and saw “Truth Be Told” when it first came out. It was absolutely beautiful. Gregorio Smith has managed to tell the stories in a masterful way. I hope to see future documentaries from him on any topic.
If you have someone in your life – i.e. friends, significant others, etc. that want to understand what your life was like as JW, this documentary is invaluable. I saw it with my girlfriend and, until she saw the documentary, she really did not fully grasp what it was like to be JW and how that impacts you the rest of your life, relationships, perspective, etc. We cried together. We laughed together. Great film.
Reply
 

 Rowland Nelken says:

 March 20, 2015 at 10:11 am

Great film. It deserves wide exposure and publicity.
High time the goons in charge of the cult were put on the spot and made to account for their cruel and destructive behaviour.
Reply
 

 HEAVYHEART says:

 March 20, 2015 at 11:32 am

I purchased this just half an hour ago. I am in tears. I can’t believe what I subjected my children to. I am so sorry. The footage of the two children standing at the door with magazines in their hands has really touched a raw nerve. I have been out for over fifteen years and they still have a hold on my mind.
Reply
 

 Stillstruggling says:

 March 20, 2015 at 11:48 am

I am trying to purchase this download but the $5 off code isn’t working.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 20, 2015 at 11:52 am

Sorry about that Stillstruggling. Would you be able to email Gregorio on the email address in the article and raise it with him, just so it can be fixed and others don’t have the same problem? Thanks! :)
Reply
 
 

 Stillstruggling says:

 March 20, 2015 at 11:58 am

Ok, sure, I’ll do that. By the way, thank you so much for all of the work that you do for us. It’s really hard to let go of the Watchtower thinking and the guilt that comes with doubting. I appreciate you and others that are brave enough to do this work.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 20, 2015 at 12:02 pm

It’s an absolute pleasure. Thank you for the kind sentiments. :)
Reply
 
 

 Stillstruggling says:

 March 20, 2015 at 12:10 pm

Coupon fixed!
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 20, 2015 at 3:15 pm

That’s great news, thanks for letting us know! :)
Reply
 
 

 Big Jim says:

 March 20, 2015 at 12:31 pm

I am sure this a great documentary. I have not seen it as yet. I know there is a lot of stress in our religion. I am a Jehovah’s Witness and have been for 55 years. I have seen it all. I started out with the best job possible and lost that because of not working on Catholic Church property where they housed sexual abuse. I took a moral stand. I will not work on any property where there is even the hint of sexual abuse. Neither will you, even if you get fired for it. You may not get another job for years. But you have taken your stand, and that is more important. I see only Jehovah. I am reminded of the first century Christians. John the Baptist ended up getting his head chopped off because he exposed the immoral King. Jesus was murdered. Stephen was stoned to death. Other Christians were put in prisons and used as entertainment in the arenas where they were torn apart by lions as families while hanging onto their children. Later Christians were executed by the ax as well. Back then, I suspect you would have this site there, complaining about all the stuff that was happening. Can we imagine a religion telling its people not to throw a pinch of incense to the bust of Caesar. And the Romans saying to do that or they will be ripped apart by lions. Now we can say That is wacked for sure! But the Christian religion declared that very issue. Ever since man fell into sin, Satan has been messing with worshippers of God. That means I cannot complain. I am in good company. And I am alive yet. One more thing, there was a documentary on the History Channel entitled “Jesus Christ, Cult Master.” And he was none of that. But the accusations were there, false accusations. What is the answer? I will say it again. Close down all religions, including mine. Don’t need it. Serve God on a personal basis. Stop all holidays. No more tax exempt religions and collection plates. Sell of their properties for back taxes or remodel them for use elsewhere. I do not live for this life which is filled with misery. I live for the new life that is yet to come. 70 to 80 years now of stupidity is worth billions of years into eternity. In conclusion, without religion, no more sexual abuse or spiritual or emotional abuse by neurotics with power. Without religion or a restraint, someone messes with us or our families, we take them out back and best them until they are unrecognizable. Let them heal in the hospital. Then beat them some more. Without religion, there will be no laws to stop us, no consciences to hinder us. Get rid of religion. Keep beating up JWs. But include the other religions as well. Remember, 24 of the 27 nations that fought World War I claimed to be Christian. If the so called Christian religions told the governments they are not getting our congregations to fight their battles, there would not have been a World War I, that was 7 times worse than all the wars put together in human history. That’s why they put a number on it. One. Therefore, all religions have a lot of answering to do. Let’s line them up, expose, expose, expose. Go after their congregations and picket the Churches with signs declaring how rotten they are. Burn Christmas trees on their tax exempt lawns, as tax payers. Easy to prove. It was illegal to celebrate Christmas in the USA until the middle 1800s because the holiday was pagan. Step on the colored Easter eggs in their cute hunts. What is that all about anyway? So, get rid of all religions, period. I will laugh until I cry when that happens. So, do as I do. Tell your friends and relatives and neighbors that their religions should get shut down. That the United Nations is poised and ready to do just that. I love this site. But we have to include all the filthy religions on the planet. In the meantime, I will continue to serve the God of the heavens. With a church, or without one. From my youth up, I wanted to be a minister. And I sure am not going to stop now. No more corrupt religions. Nor more hypocritical congregation members. No more holidays. No more Ladies Aid banquets. No more collection plates. No more anything to do with religion. Check out the Middle East. The governments are getting fed up with religion. And so are you. And so am I. So, start a list of all religions on this site, and go after each one and expose them. That should be easy to do. Just read the newspapers.
Reply
 
 anonymous says:

 March 20, 2015 at 12:50 pm

Big Jim. What is your point? You say you have been one of Jehovah’s Witnesses for 55 years. I was for 50 years, baptized at 20 in 1966. Were you baptized at a young age? Are you trying to say in your comments that all religions have problems and so why just pick on Jehovah’s Witnesses? I don’t understand what you are trying to say. We know you are being facetious but why?
Reply
 
 GEM says:

 March 22, 2015 at 7:42 am

@Anonymous: I think I can see the line of reasoning of Big Jim…even if it reads a little if it is “Bourbon” laced.
I hope I can appeal to your memory of the mid-’60’s when WT entered into our world as a family.
Initially I was impressed by affirmations that I was “one of Jehovah’s Witnesses”. This was not to be used as a brand name. It was “Here I am send me”.
As the post “Truth” book world evolved it became clear that this was becoming another American born “fast food” super chain. I used to cringe as speakers, for example, were introduced as representing the “Watchtower Society”.
No,… he was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses speaking on behalf of the worldwide association.
Gradually WT developed the cult-like jargon and speech that is now characteristic of it. Suddenly, WT wasn’t a printing and publishing tool working for us…but we were working for it.
When I did my stint at Bethel, this became painful obvious. Folk actually lived in fear of men, rather than Jehovah.
I hope this film brings all the anxiety of this tragic homogenised religion to everyone’s attention.
Some, would have things stripped back to their own Spiritual Pathway again…where, Religion does not hold them in fear… whilst others would be happy to continue their lives with Atheistic views, free from the “Opium of the People”.
I hope my reasoning is just as lucid as Jim’s Bourbon!
Reply
 
 

 ForestDaughter says:

 March 21, 2015 at 8:32 am

It’s interesting what you said about the Ancient Romans, because in actual fact they were tolerant to all religions; there being many diverse religions in Rome each having their own temples. Unfortunately, one new religion didn’t want freedom of worship for anyone else except for themselves, and were intent on destruction to that end. That’s the reason the Christians were being put to death; not because they were the ‘true’ religion, but because they were causing a bloody nuisance of themselves. So you can’t really cry ‘persecution’ when it’s your religion that started the persecution in the first place!
Reply
 

 Stevan says:

 March 29, 2015 at 5:32 am

My friend,
 The world wars you refer to were not waged in the Name of Christ!
Reply
 
 

 Big Jim says:

 March 20, 2015 at 12:43 pm

Hey, why is he charging for this documentary? If he really cares about truth, give it for free. Matthew 10:8 says, “You received free, give free.” Spread the word free. Get a part time job somewhere else and give these away for free. It is time to reject this commercial self centered world and prove we have what it takes.
Reply
 
 Shanti says:

 March 20, 2015 at 1:19 pm

Oh! If Watchtower did things for free, Sam wouldn’t be wearing that Rolex.
Reply
 

 FEELINGSICKTOMYSTOMACH says:

 March 20, 2015 at 3:16 pm

Why should he do it for free. He is not a charity.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 20, 2015 at 3:17 pm

FEELINGSICKTOMYSTOMACH – Very well said. I do despair sometimes at how ignorant and anal some people can be.
Reply
 
 
 

 Big Jim says:

 March 20, 2015 at 12:47 pm

A website is the answer. Cheap. Put the documentary on the website so people can download it from there onto their computers. No paperwork. No cost. All electronics. That way the message will get to more people. Unless, this is all about the money.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 March 20, 2015 at 2:56 pm

I’m scratching my head trying to figure out whether you’re a cynical troll or just plain stupid. Who the hell do you think you are to tell a filmmaker to give his work away for free? Or should the same rule apply to anyone who expends their time, creative energy and resources writing books about Watchtower and Jehovah’s Witnesses? You expect people to “give free” as though we are all under bible law, but I wonder whether you would be so willing to work for days, weeks, months or years without any form of payment apart from the positive impact of your work. Do you even have any similar work that you have given out for free, or is this just something you expect from others?
Reply
 
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 20, 2015 at 1:52 pm

What cracks me up is how jw’s use the bible as some kind of “Manual of Life”. Like you can solve all domestic, social, business, etc conflicts by referring to a particular verse in the bible. “Yes honey, I know it’s a problem, but I am supposed to love you and you are supposed to obey me – bleep bleep bleep…” It’s easier to be a robot than to think. They remind me of ostriches with heads buried in the sand, oblivious to reality and life.
Reply
 

 Pickled brain says:

 March 20, 2015 at 4:06 pm

The Watchtower Organisation NEVER gives anything for free. It Blackmails people emotionally to give their time,energy,free labour & money in the terms of
 Donations,wills,Real Estate,stocks&shares,etc .If we give to JEHOVAH??? Meaning the Watchtower Organistion then we will get Eternal Life!!
Reply
 
 David Martin says:

 March 21, 2015 at 5:17 pm

What?? You make not a single intelligible thought. Even in the days of Jesus, did they contribute. But you probably would say Jesus is a myth as well.
Reply
 
 anonymous says:

 March 22, 2015 at 6:32 am

David, can you prove Jesus wasn’t a myth?
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 22, 2015 at 4:23 pm

Jesus is a myth as well.
Reply
 
 
 

 Grace says:

 March 20, 2015 at 10:23 pm

Good one Pickled Brain. There’s always a catch with the WT.
Reply
 

 airborne says:

 March 20, 2015 at 10:23 pm

Thanks to all responsible for making this movie available. I purchased a copy for future reference. Much better than any donation I made to the Watchtower Corporation.
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 21, 2015 at 2:51 am

Definition of “apostate”: Someone who has come to his senses
Reply
 
 Charles Costante says:

 March 21, 2015 at 3:04 am

Love that, Neal!
Reply
 

 Alan says:

 March 22, 2015 at 2:24 am

Yes. I agree, but also the WTBTS definition of an apostate is one who falls away from the “truth” I ask you this, “How can this be a true definition when they never had the truth in the first place?”
Reply
 
 Charles Costante says:

 March 22, 2015 at 2:40 am

Exactly, Alan! We fell away from the “Bovine Excreta”!
Reply
 
 
 

 JWIntellect says:

 March 21, 2015 at 11:57 am

Unfortunately, I purchased the special edition of Truth Be Told before this special discount offer came about.
I would love to host a screening of this film on my campus.
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 21, 2015 at 12:55 pm

Sometimes when jw’s, like my mother, talk about the “End”, I just agree and say, Yeah, it will all be over by next year. Then something strange happens. They seem to tense up, and keep quiet, or say something like, Well no, not that soon. I don’t believe jehovah’s witnesses really want the “End” to come. They just like running around scaring people, like Chicken Little. That’s what they look like out in the street – chickens.
 I think deep down, organizations like WT know what will happen if jesus comes back. He’s gonna kick their asses for using his name and misrepresenting him all these years and centuries!!! :)
Reply
 
 Pickled brain says:

 March 21, 2015 at 4:20 pm

@ Neal Krouni .KEEP Your LIFE SIMPLE Brothers.!!! The END is NEAR??? Well Nearly Near!!!
 When I look at the way the GB & Helpers??dress&FLAUNT their Wealth. NEW CARS every 3 years, 5 year Bethel Building Plans in Warwick (Plush new HQ) ,Patterson & Walkill!!
 Now 80 acre New Bethel in England at Chelmsford to be finished in 5 years in 2020!! A letter read out asking for Donations for 5 years & free Labour & any Brothers who are Architects, Structural & Civil Engineers( all require 5 years at University)
 Then all 7 MEN of GB & Helpers wear Flashy Suits,Watches& Rings on a Snazzy TV Set !!
 Now Bros& Sisters please Downsize the way you live& work for free at Bethel & Donate all your assets to us because THE END is NEAR??? Ermmm!!! 1874(CHRISTs supposed presence) 1799 ( beginning of Last Days ) 1914,1915 End of System!! All in Studies in the Scriptures!! 1925(Resurrection of Abraham,Isaac,David,Noah,Jeremiah etc) 1942 put off having children as ARMAGEDDON is near ;all prophesied by Rutherford & 1975 by Franz!!
 I SMELL BIG RATS exploiting innocent gullible JWs!! I vote for Anthony MORRIS & Stephn Letts as KING RATS!!
Reply
 
 David Martin says:

 March 21, 2015 at 5:23 pm

I wonder what size rock you guys will try to hide under. Anyways….I’ll be thinking of you.
 p.s. have you noticed how there only a couple of you who go back and forth, making such comments. Kind of like giving each other “high fives”. Have you thought about why that might be?
Reply
 
 Big D says:

 March 21, 2015 at 5:59 pm

Ha ha ha! Way more than “a couple of us,” Dave.
Just wait until the Conti lawsuit, with millions in punitive damages, is eventually upheld by the California Court of Appeals. The verdict will be out very soon. The legal precedent set by this will result in a massive landslide of sexual abuse lawsuits going forward. Your donations will go towards the defense of these sick pedophiles and the Watchtower’s protective policies. The real question is…what rock will YOU hide under, while the Watchtower’s foundations crumble all around you. :-)
Reply
 
 Big D says:

 March 21, 2015 at 6:03 pm

Oh…and I wonder if your district overseer knows that you are visiting, and actively participating in ‘APOSTATE’ websites!!!

 
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 22, 2015 at 4:05 pm

Oh! Oh! I know! It’s because it’s so much fun dissing Jehovah’s Witnesses!!!
HIGH FIVE BRO!!!
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 22, 2015 at 4:12 pm

But the fact that you’re thinking of me gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. Thanx.
Reply
 
 
 

 Barry Williams says:

 March 28, 2015 at 8:56 am

Very we’ll said!!!!
Reply
 
 

 Grace says:

 March 21, 2015 at 9:23 pm

A big high 5 from here!
Reply
 
 Pickled brain says:

 March 21, 2015 at 10:35 pm

@David Martin . You NAUGHTY NAUGHTY JW .Visiting Apostate & commenting on Apostate websites can get you Reproved & continual BAD Association can get you DisfellowshippEd !! Even if you are only a JW Apologist can’t you see the Child Abuse a policies of Watchtower are EVIL .Go onto YouTube & look at Jose Lopez trial & Candace Conti & Dozens of others & see the CRUEL HEARTLESS way these Children at the time of the ABUSE took place how the Elders were advised to handle these cases & thousands of others(23,000) database!
 Oh & there are thousands of JWs that read this SITE who are JWs but DON’T comment but Silently agree like I did for months before I plucked up the courage to comment Because of the FEAR Watchtower instill in people Not to mix with BAD Associations ( 1 Corinthians 15v.33)
Reply
 
 Pickled brain says:

 March 21, 2015 at 11:01 pm

The GOVERNING BODY Are LIARS!!
 Look at new Video on TV.JW.ORG under ‘100 years of Kingdom Rule’
Sam Herd says the bible students knew 1914 was a pivotal year . They knew something was going to happen but were Uncertain what would!!! THAT IS A LIE!!!
 Russell had published 6 volumes of ‘Studies in the Scriptures by 1913 & had PRINTED CHRIST PRESENCE had taken place in 1874 & LAST DAYS started in 1799 & All Governments & Religion would be Destroyed by 1914 & the Bible Students still alive would go to Heaven! THIS IS IN PRINT!! It Cannot be DENIED!! SAM HERD is a LIAR !! If the GB can be so Blatantly Lying about this Then you Cannot trust them what ELSE they will LIE about!!
Reply
 
 Big D says:

 March 22, 2015 at 5:11 am

Can anyone tell if Herd is wearing his gold pinkie ring? I saw him lift his right hand momentarily, in the vid, but I wasn’t fast enough to freeze it on that frame.
Reply
 
 Neal Krouni says:

 March 22, 2015 at 3:59 pm

What I want to know is, Is he wearing tight pants? :) :) :)

 
 
 
 
 

 zeebo says:

 March 22, 2015 at 12:17 am

Guys I bought this a while ago and it’s great. The download option can be fussy but the watch online is fine. If there wasn’t a fee to watch then i would have asked how i could donate.. this isn’t some corporation like time warner, its a real guy who invested years of his life and creativity to do this for us… ffs lets pay the man!
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 March 23, 2015 at 3:28 am

@ Pickled brain
Maybe we should start referring to the GB as the new “RAT PACK”! :)
Reply
 
 Pickled brain says:

 March 23, 2015 at 4:20 am

@Neale Krouni . RAT PACk good idea!! Frank Sinatra,Dean Martin & Sammy Davis Jnr alias ANTHONY MORRIS,Geoffrey Jackson& Sam Herd ???Cant get Bigger Rats!!!
Reply
 
 

 theGreenWitness says:

 March 26, 2015 at 5:40 am

Now, i don’t have the right to dictate how the creator of this documentary makes the film available. Its obvious a lot of hard work has gone into making this. Personally, i am a little saddened the film is behind a $10 pay wall. If it was me, i would make donations a prominent part of the viewing experience and perhaps have a paid deluxe edition. To me, the essence of having a basic free-to-view version of the film would definitely drive it to reach more people and easily quash any claims of profiteering. Not trying to provoke an argument, just sayin’
Reply
 

 nightstalker says:

 March 27, 2015 at 12:40 pm

I was advised to check out this site. I am not of this religion, or any religion. My life has been military since I was in my early 20s. I am currently with the CIA, almost retired, and seeking excitement in my older years. I suppose I have been spoiled by my history. I cannot reveal much about me as yet due to protocol. Whatever is going on here is interesting. There appears to be a ot of anger. From what I am gathering, justified anger. So be it. I will just sit back and continue reading reports as they come in, and I am sure there will be plenty of that. I have been around the world and have seen it all. A common denominator rings true in all problems throughout the planet. And that is a tragedy. At the core of that is exactly what all of you are discussing.
Reply
 

 pixie says:

 March 27, 2015 at 1:05 pm

curious as to why someone not raised in this belief or converted to it would care? maybe we have been a big fish bowl all along to see if people will give in when it comes to their own goals and devote themselves to God. the tragedy is our sweet hard working members are True Believers (a book by Eric Hoffer) read that, sir and you will learn more than here. this is a site mostly for healing. you say you work in Maryland, that is great! read a book called Opium, a history. it will add to your appreciation of the original 13 colonies, and the crab harvest is great this year. again I cannot see why you would care about our bible club if you have not been inspired or hurt by it.
Reply
 

 Excelsior! says:

 March 29, 2015 at 6:09 am

David Martin,
I will not be hiding under rocks! My conscience is clear. I have freedom of speech on Judgement Day, because I have love for my fellow human beings. 1 John 4.
How is your conscience, Mr Martin? Are you filled with a warm fuzzy feeling that your religion has covered up child abuse, and allowed paedophiles to continue to abuse children?
Are you filled with a warm glow that women are advised to stay with their abusive partners? Do you smile with glee when they are denied the chance to divorce and marry again?
I could go on, but you get the point, I hope, Mr Martin.
How are these policies in any way Christian? Your time would be better served in thorough and independent research on your religion, rather than trolling us with threats of death at Armageddon.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 

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 Stephen Lett admits income/expenditure shortfall as he reminds Witnesses to donate "valuable things" 
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Cough up, kids – Watchtower needs your ice cream money!
avatar
Posted on May 21, 2015

A new Watchtower cartoon urges Witness kids to give up their pocket money
As Jehovah’s Witnesses the world over continue to digest the latest “historic” JW Broadcasting episode, in which the Governing Body admits to having a shortfall in funds and asks Witnesses to give their “valuable things” to compensate, a video has emerged … Continue reading →

51 Comments
 
Stephen Lett admits income/expenditure shortfall as he reminds Witnesses to donate “valuable things”
avatar
Posted on May 5, 2015

The May episode of JW Broadcasting features Stephen Lett asking JWs to cover a shortfall in funds
The May 2015 episode of JW Broadcasting was billed by its host, Governing Body member Stephen Lett, as being a “historic” one. It ended up being just that, but for none of the reasons given. Lett opened the program by … Continue reading →

482 Comments
 
JW.org does partial U-turn over Awake! magazine Rama Singh misquote
avatar
Posted on April 19, 2015

JW.org has removed their misquote of Rama Singh from digital versions of Awake! magazine
Some of you will remember that back in January we reported on the latest example of a Watchtower publication misquoting an academic to get its anti-science views across. Biologist Rama Singh was quoted in the January 2015 Awake! magazine with … Continue reading →

76 Comments
 
“We are not done yet!” – Candace reacts to appeal court decision
avatar
Posted on April 16, 2015

Candace Conti (pictured in her interview with ABC) has spoken out for the first time about the appeal court decision
As current and former Jehovah’s Witnesses digest the news that Watchtower’s appeal against the Candace Conti verdict has faltered, albeit with the punitive element of the judgment reversed, Candace has reacted for the first time by telling me: “We are … Continue reading →

73 Comments
 
Conti appeal: Watchtower’s punitive damages reversed but negligence for lack of field service supervision is affirmed
Posted on April 14, 2015

The appeal court in the Conti case has overturned Watchtower's punitive damages, but upheld the judgment of negligence
It’s a bittersweet day for Candace Conti, her family and supporters, as they digest the appeal court’s reversal of the “cause of action” for Watchtower’s punitive damages in her sex abuse case. Though the amended verdict remains a victory in … Continue reading →

41 Comments
 
My response to the haters (and why I can’t always shake it off)
avatar
Posted on April 11, 2015

Abuse from fanatical Cedars-bashers like Tony Balchen (pictured) is beginning to take its toll
I suffer from depression, but even at my darkest moments, when my mind has briefly flirted with notions of suicide, I’ve always thought what a bad choice that would be. There are just so many different ways a person’s life … Continue reading →

212 Comments
 
Harmful beliefs – woman and her unborn child perish after she refuses a blood transfusion
avatar
Posted on April 7, 2015

Prince of Wales Hospital in Randwick, where a Jehovah's Witness woman and her child have died due to the blood policy
Is there such a thing as a lifesaving blood transfusion? To some that may seem like a silly question, but it’s something many Jehovah’s Witnesses are skeptical about. Section 4 of their new “history” book mentions the concept while talking … Continue reading →

52 Comments
 
Ashya King reported as cancer-free by parents
avatar
Posted on March 24, 2015

Ashya King with his mother while being treated in Prague last year
The parents of five-year-old Ashya King have told reporters that their son is now cancer-free, after receiving proton therapy for a brain tumor in Prague. Readers may recall the family made headlines last August after an international manhunt commenced when … Continue reading →

26 Comments
 
Witnesses on Instagram respond to images of tragic JW mother who died refusing blood
avatar
Posted on March 23, 2015

Michelle, who would die refusing blood after giving birth, is pictured at her baby shower
Since a doctrinal decision reached at Watchtower headquarters some time in 1945, Jehovah’s Witnesses have been prohibited from receiving various medical treatments involving blood. This has resulted in untold numbers of Witnesses over many decades (including children) dying out of … Continue reading →

120 Comments
 
Jehovah’s Witness New Orleans airport machete attacker dies
Posted on March 23, 2015

Richard White pictured shortly after the incident
Richard White, 63, a Jehovah’s Witness, has been identified by authorities as the man who wielded a machete on Friday night (March 20, 2015) at Louis Armstrong, New Orleans International Airport. Also armed with insect spray during the attack, White charged … Continue reading →

66 Comments
 
Gregorio Smith gives JWsurvey readers exclusive offer as he takes “Truth Be Told” on European Tour
avatar
Posted on March 20, 2015

Filmmaker Gregorio Smith is taking his production to audiences in Europe
As the HBO film “Going Clear” earns rave reviews for shining a light on the inner workings of the Scientology cult, it is worth remembering that the Watchtower organization is not without its own hard-hitting film expose. Released online last … Continue reading →

52 Comments
 
What is JWsurvey’s approach to science, religion and the bible?
avatar
Posted on March 19, 2015

Religious neutrality is an essential element of JWsurvey
Frequent visitors to JWsurvey will be familiar with this website’s posting guidelines for comments, which include the following rule regarding religious neutrality: “Do not post comments that are evangelical in nature or may be construed as imposing one person’s religious … Continue reading →

88 Comments
 
Big Eyes, Big Lies: Painter Margaret Keane and the Truth
avatar
Posted on March 16, 2015

Big Eyes starring Amy Adams (left) tells the story of JW painter Margaret Keane (right) and the fraud that shook the art world
It wasn’t easy as a creative child growing up in a devout Jehovah’s Witness household. My early dreams of becoming an artist were squashed by the future forced upon me. According to my indoctrination the only real career outlet for … Continue reading →

66 Comments
 
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Click on 
Visit JWalumni.org for help and advice with leaving Jehovah's Witnesses
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Top Posts & Pages
Cough up, kids - Watchtower needs your ice cream money! 
 Cough up, kids - Watchtower needs your ice cream money! 
Stephen Lett admits income/expenditure shortfall as he reminds Witnesses to donate "valuable things" 
 Stephen Lett admits income/expenditure shortfall as he reminds Witnesses to donate "valuable things" 
Governing Body instructs congregations to pledge fixed monthly donations 
 Governing Body instructs congregations to pledge fixed monthly donations 
Links 
 Links 
Why it is morally wrong for Watchtower to push baptism on children 
 Why it is morally wrong for Watchtower to push baptism on children 
Videos 
 Videos 


 

Key Articles

Is JWsurvey.org an apostate website?
What is the new light on the faithful slave?
Has Watchtower ever lied or withheld informatiion?

Open Offer

Open Offer to all bethelites
 Do you work at Brooklyn, Patterson or Wallkill? If so, please click here.

Our Promise
Making corrections
 Is there something incorrect or unfactual on this website? If so, please let us know and we will correct it.

2015 results at a glance
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Site Stats
Visitor stats for JWsurvey

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Who's Online
◾0 Members.
◾37 Guests.

Reader Comments
◾Everyday Explorer on Cough up, kids – Watchtower needs your ice cream money!
◾Everyday Explorer on Cough up, kids – Watchtower needs your ice cream money!
◾Thinking of leaving on Cough up, kids – Watchtower needs your ice cream money!
◾Finn Sawyer on Cough up, kids – Watchtower needs your ice cream money!

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          http://jwsurvey.org/

























Skip to content
JWsurvey 


Welcome

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Get Involved

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Cough up, kids – Watchtower needs your ice cream money!
avatar
Posted on May 21, 2015

A new Watchtower cartoon urges Witness kids to give up their pocket money
As Jehovah’s Witnesses the world over continue to digest the latest “historic” JW Broadcasting episode, in which the Governing Body admits to having a shortfall in funds and asks Witnesses to give their “valuable things” to compensate, a video has emerged … Continue reading →

51 Comments
 
Stephen Lett admits income/expenditure shortfall as he reminds Witnesses to donate “valuable things”
avatar
Posted on May 5, 2015

The May episode of JW Broadcasting features Stephen Lett asking JWs to cover a shortfall in funds
The May 2015 episode of JW Broadcasting was billed by its host, Governing Body member Stephen Lett, as being a “historic” one. It ended up being just that, but for none of the reasons given. Lett opened the program by … Continue reading →

482 Comments
 
JW.org does partial U-turn over Awake! magazine Rama Singh misquote
avatar
Posted on April 19, 2015

JW.org has removed their misquote of Rama Singh from digital versions of Awake! magazine
Some of you will remember that back in January we reported on the latest example of a Watchtower publication misquoting an academic to get its anti-science views across. Biologist Rama Singh was quoted in the January 2015 Awake! magazine with … Continue reading →

76 Comments
 
“We are not done yet!” – Candace reacts to appeal court decision
avatar
Posted on April 16, 2015

Candace Conti (pictured in her interview with ABC) has spoken out for the first time about the appeal court decision
As current and former Jehovah’s Witnesses digest the news that Watchtower’s appeal against the Candace Conti verdict has faltered, albeit with the punitive element of the judgment reversed, Candace has reacted for the first time by telling me: “We are … Continue reading →

73 Comments
 
Conti appeal: Watchtower’s punitive damages reversed but negligence for lack of field service supervision is affirmed
Posted on April 14, 2015

The appeal court in the Conti case has overturned Watchtower's punitive damages, but upheld the judgment of negligence
It’s a bittersweet day for Candace Conti, her family and supporters, as they digest the appeal court’s reversal of the “cause of action” for Watchtower’s punitive damages in her sex abuse case. Though the amended verdict remains a victory in … Continue reading →

41 Comments
 
My response to the haters (and why I can’t always shake it off)
avatar
Posted on April 11, 2015

Abuse from fanatical Cedars-bashers like Tony Balchen (pictured) is beginning to take its toll
I suffer from depression, but even at my darkest moments, when my mind has briefly flirted with notions of suicide, I’ve always thought what a bad choice that would be. There are just so many different ways a person’s life … Continue reading →

212 Comments
 
Harmful beliefs – woman and her unborn child perish after she refuses a blood transfusion
avatar
Posted on April 7, 2015

Prince of Wales Hospital in Randwick, where a Jehovah's Witness woman and her child have died due to the blood policy
Is there such a thing as a lifesaving blood transfusion? To some that may seem like a silly question, but it’s something many Jehovah’s Witnesses are skeptical about. Section 4 of their new “history” book mentions the concept while talking … Continue reading →

52 Comments
 
Ashya King reported as cancer-free by parents
avatar
Posted on March 24, 2015

Ashya King with his mother while being treated in Prague last year
The parents of five-year-old Ashya King have told reporters that their son is now cancer-free, after receiving proton therapy for a brain tumor in Prague. Readers may recall the family made headlines last August after an international manhunt commenced when … Continue reading →

26 Comments
 
Witnesses on Instagram respond to images of tragic JW mother who died refusing blood
avatar
Posted on March 23, 2015

Michelle, who would die refusing blood after giving birth, is pictured at her baby shower
Since a doctrinal decision reached at Watchtower headquarters some time in 1945, Jehovah’s Witnesses have been prohibited from receiving various medical treatments involving blood. This has resulted in untold numbers of Witnesses over many decades (including children) dying out of … Continue reading →

120 Comments
 
Jehovah’s Witness New Orleans airport machete attacker dies
Posted on March 23, 2015

Richard White pictured shortly after the incident
Richard White, 63, a Jehovah’s Witness, has been identified by authorities as the man who wielded a machete on Friday night (March 20, 2015) at Louis Armstrong, New Orleans International Airport. Also armed with insect spray during the attack, White charged … Continue reading →

66 Comments
 
Gregorio Smith gives JWsurvey readers exclusive offer as he takes “Truth Be Told” on European Tour
avatar
Posted on March 20, 2015

Filmmaker Gregorio Smith is taking his production to audiences in Europe
As the HBO film “Going Clear” earns rave reviews for shining a light on the inner workings of the Scientology cult, it is worth remembering that the Watchtower organization is not without its own hard-hitting film expose. Released online last … Continue reading →

52 Comments
 
What is JWsurvey’s approach to science, religion and the bible?
avatar
Posted on March 19, 2015

Religious neutrality is an essential element of JWsurvey
Frequent visitors to JWsurvey will be familiar with this website’s posting guidelines for comments, which include the following rule regarding religious neutrality: “Do not post comments that are evangelical in nature or may be construed as imposing one person’s religious … Continue reading →

88 Comments
 
Big Eyes, Big Lies: Painter Margaret Keane and the Truth
avatar
Posted on March 16, 2015

Big Eyes starring Amy Adams (left) tells the story of JW painter Margaret Keane (right) and the fraud that shook the art world
It wasn’t easy as a creative child growing up in a devout Jehovah’s Witness household. My early dreams of becoming an artist were squashed by the future forced upon me. According to my indoctrination the only real career outlet for … Continue reading →

66 Comments
 
← Older posts
 
 



Click on 
Visit JWalumni.org for help and advice with leaving Jehovah's Witnesses
Visit JWfacts.com for more information on JW beliefs
Advocates for Awareness of Watchtower Abuses
JW Recovery forum
Visit JWstruggle.com for helpful information on exiting JW mind control

 

Support JWsurvey
Help us make continued improvements to this website and its content.

       

Article Categories
◾Apostates (23)
◾Blood transfusions (11)
◾Books (4)
◾Cedars' Blog (201)
◾Cedars' Story (4)
◾Celebrity JWs (2)
◾Child Abuse (44)
◾Child Indoctrination (13)
◾Divine Direction (4)
◾Domestic Abuse (2)
◾Doomsday Predictions (1)
◾Downsizing (6)
◾Evolution and creation (6)
◾General Information (1)
◾Governing Body (32)
◾Higher education (3)
◾History and scandals (6)
◾JW.org (7)
◾Life Stories (9)
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← The day I prank-called a Governing Body member
“Pay attention or die!” – A disturbing glimpse of JW child indoctrination at work →

Full program of United States elders meeting leaked on YouTube
avatar
Posted on February 7, 2015

GB helper Robert Luccioni addresses elders on the broadcast
GB helper Robert Luccioni addresses elders on the broadcast

A few days ago I posted an article about a special meeting to which all elders in the United States branch territory were invited. The purpose of the LDC (Local Design/Construction Department) meeting was to unveil a new style of standardized kingdom hall that is far better suited for re-sale with commercial applications in mind.
As you would expect, rank and file members were excluded from the meeting despite their contributions paying for the buildings that were being discussed.
Now the entire 2 hour, 40 minute meeting has been leaked on YouTube. I haven’t had chance to go through it all yet, but I thought JWsurvey readers would appreciate the “heads up” and the opportunity to form their own conclusions about what was said during the event.


I am told there are copies of the video in private circulation, so even if Watchtower pulls some strings and has YouTube take the video down, you can expect it to pop up again somewhere.
When you add this latest leak to the leak of Watchtower’s elder training videos on disfellowshipping and suicidal ones 12 months ago, it should go without saying that the organization does not enjoy the uniform support of elders to which it aspires.

new-cedars-signature2






Further reading…
◾New commercial-style standard kingdom hall design unveiled to elders
◾Governing Body instructs congregations to pledge fixed monthly donations
◾Watchtower completes stealth-tithing smash-and-grab
◾JWsurvey articles on Watchtower downsizing


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← The day I prank-called a Governing Body member
“Pay attention or die!” – A disturbing glimpse of JW child indoctrination at work →

136 Responses to Full program of United States elders meeting leaked on YouTube

← Older Comments

 Pickled brain says:

 February 12, 2015 at 12:59 pm

@Ted . GREAT COMMENT about the collecting of Wood on Sabbath ! Funny how JEHOVAH could put someone to Death for that AWFUL SIN & also for Collecting Mannah on the Sabbath but HE is GOING to Forgive a VICIOUS,SADISTIC MASS MURDERER of VULNERABLE WOMEN????? Also JEHOVAH Put to DEATH Annanias& Saphira for JUST a HALF TRUTH in Acts ch.5 v1-10!!’ Oh God is SO JUST???
Reply
 

 anonymous says:

 February 12, 2015 at 2:11 pm

@Pickled brain. Yeah, Sutcliffe is “witnessing” to all the other inmates there too. I remember doing that too when I first came into what I “thought” was the “truth”.
He must believe that Armageddon is going to come any minute too, just like what we thought and he’s worried about all those people getting through Armageddon. laugh out loud, coming from me here. He’s like Jesus was when he was on the torture stake (cross) and was telling the evil doer beside him that he’d be in paradise.LOL.
I know a man who was in prison for 7 years because he molested some kids but this guy was talking to people who weren’t there all the time so he was clearly out of his gourd but the law still held him responsible. He was in a mental institution at a prison all that time and is on medication and is fine now. People understood with him.
So, there are people who really don’t know what they are doing but in Sutcliffe’s case, I don’t think he was talking to imaginary people all the time was he? There’s a difference between people who can’t control their behavior and those who chose to do what they do. I think in Sutcliffe’s case, he knew exactly what he was doing and did it anyway, because he’s a sociopath.
Sociopath’s are not curable. So, I actually think he’s more insane now that he thinks he’s in the “truth” than he was before he found the “truth”. The sad thing is that in the U.S. here, people like that do get out of prison. They are such good actors. But they get out and kill again.
In my State, we had a man that had murdered before and was in prison, but the State got sick of paying for his upkeep so they let him out, thinking because he had gotten old, that he wouldn’t kill anybody anymore but as soon as he got out, he went on a killing spree, even killing a 7 year old girl right in my little home town here and killing 3 other little girls within the State. The reason he did it was so they’d put him back in prison again because he didn’t have to worry about getting a job to support himself.
I am for the death sentence for people like that but they don’t have the death sentence in our state. According to the Mosaic law, a life for a life and Sutcliffe would have been put to death.
A lot of times like that, they won’t kill a person like that because the families want the bodies for a proper burial and the only way they will find the bodies is to give the killer a plea bargain. That is how they get out of being put to death.
You were right about all the time those elders spent with him trying to convert him. What about their families? How much time did they spend with their kids during this time? Were they just counting time?
There’s lots of women who actually want to marry people like that. I wonder if there wasn’t just a little bit of idol worship in those brother’s minds when they got to study with a notorious killer like that????
Reply
 

 Peggy says:

 February 12, 2015 at 2:41 pm

@Anonymous,
 Back when these “younger” GB members were added, I said to myself, these guys are hedging their bets. They do not actually believe the end is about to arrive. They gave themselves maybe some 30+years, to my reckoning until this batch is all dead. Then, they will have to make up another explanation for why the end hasn’t come. I once mentioned this to my JW father, and how we now have a member of the anointed younger than his own son. I said imagine dad, you could have a son on the GB!! But, we would have never have believed this back in the 1970″s. Oh no, the GB were old men. and they are gone.
 As you said there is no urgency.I also mused over what the WT would do if something like an airplane crash took all 7 lives ?
Reply
 

 Pickled brain says:

 February 12, 2015 at 3:50 pm

@Anonymous. I Agree with your Analysis of Idol Worship of such a Notorious Prisoner .These Elders will be probably used on the Platform at Assemblies to show Everyone how they bought this Mass Murderer into the Truth!! The Attention these Elders will get is sickening But if you Quietly ,Unassumingly just bought your child into the truth along with 1000s of others wouldn’t be so Dramatic on the Platform. Probably see it in a Watchtower or Awake article soon as a LIFE?experience ??
Reply
 

 Pickled brain says:

 February 12, 2015 at 4:04 pm

@Peggy You are Right !!There is NO URGENCY any more unlike the 1960s& 70s. ARMAGEDDON gets an occasional mention from time to time but not with the VIGOUR& DRAMA that we Must Save Sheepie at any cost as TIME WAS SHORT in the 1970s as the Anointed were Dying out ,only about 8000 left in 1975 & they were Old in years ;Fred Franz was 76 in that year & the GENERATION as Told by F&D SLAVE was 70 or 80 years since 1914! If a member of Governing Body was 47 when he joined as Mark Sanderson was in 2010 he would have been Laughed at as Being too young & NOT TESTED. Anyway most ANOINTED had been CHOSEN by 1935! HMmm!!’ I SEE NEW LIGHT is Getting Brighter?? No Sorry it’s the REFLECTION from Sam Herds GOLD WATCH!!’
Reply
 

 sam says:

 February 12, 2015 at 4:11 pm

Touche sir, the list you presented of serial killers that were paroled if accurate, is very disturbing.
Great point, the irony of not talking to a shunned relative for years but freely associating with scummy pete sutcliffe.
Reply
 

 anonymous says:

 February 12, 2015 at 6:36 pm

@Peggy, I also wonder what would happen if all of the Governing Body die and the Great Tribulation doesn’t break out? How could they explain that then? All of them except for Sanderson are getting up there in age. When they put Sanderson in there, he is young enough to be my child and it made me sick to my stomach.
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that these guys feel that they have received their “final sealing” which means they can’t sin anymore. That is why when they die, all the Witnesses just assume that they are in heaven with Jesus. That is the only way, you could assume they were in heaven, is if they have received their “final sealing”.
All these years, I thought it meant that they had to live all their life and die faithful (but what evidence would we have that they went to heaven or hell (grave). What is so funny about this Sutcliffe guy is that this guy has been told that he will live on the paradise earth, but anybody who claimed to be of the anointed and fell away from the “truth” will get everlasting death, being thrown into the lake of fire. Can you imagine how hard it would be for one of them to “fall out of the truth”. That is worse than being a serial killer for them.
Reply
 

 Pickled brain says:

 February 12, 2015 at 10:38 pm

@sam. Thank you for your Generous acceptance of my research. You seem a very fair person . I like your style . Take care & have a good day.!
Reply
 

 Pickled brain says:

 February 12, 2015 at 11:52 pm

I FELL ABOUT LAUGHING when I read the Days Text on the JW Website. ‘ wol.org ‘ for Friday 13 feb!! In the Comments it talks about Hypocritical Religious Leaders FLEECING the FLOCK by Buying Expensive Properties & Automobiles!!!!! Even one Bought an Air Conditioned DOG KENNEL!! Well that’s a Damn Sight Cheaper than a GOLD Sub-Mariner ROLEX!! Eh SAM HERD !! I think it Rather Sweet & Kind of Christendom Leader to buy an Air conditioned Dog Kennel!! Pet Lovers Unite!!!
Reply
 

 anonymous says:

 February 13, 2015 at 3:36 am

@Pickled brain, that dog house belonged to Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker who were the hosts of the PTL club in the U.S. from 1984-1987. They were very popular and wanted to put up a resort for their members and were asking $1,000 for membership in their resort for a 3 day stay every year for the rest of their lives, but they sold tens of thousands of memberships and the resort was never completed before they were caught and the husband was sent to jail.
What was found out is that they had paid out $279,000 to keep quiet a certain Jessica Hahn, who Jim Bakker had had sex with and they knew if it came out that they’d be done for, but there were people looking into where all that money was going. The Bakkers also kept over $3 million for themselves and one of the things that the feds saw that they had bought was that air-conditioned dog house among lots of other luxury items for themselves. The Bakkers got all that money from people sending in their $1,000 for membership into that resort they said they were building but they only got a 500 room hotel completed before they were stopped.
The Bakkers were child like, compared to the Watchtower when it comes to manipulating people out of their money. At least the Bakkers were offering a 3 day stay every year for the rest of these people’s life for that $1,000. What made it a “fraud” and what got Jim Bakker thrown into jail more than anything was that he paid out $279,000 to pay off a sex scandal out of that money that was supposed to go towards that resort. When it came to that motel that the Bakkers were building, they said most of the money went towards upkeep of the motel, according to Wikipedia. Does that sound familiar???
In the Watchtower’s case, everything sounds very much the same as the Bakkers, except the monies being sent in is supposed to be supporting the printing of more literature and you are right, I don’t think it cost as much for that air-conditoned dog house as a Rolex. But if the charities commission looked into it and saw that the money going to the Watchtower for the “world wide work” was actually going to pay off sex abuse cases against the Watchtower, what is the difference between the Bakkers and the Watchtower?
The fact that the Bakkers were selling tens of thousands of memberships for $1,000 each and had only gotten one motel built, to me, didn’t make it a fraud. I used to watch that show when they were hosting it and they kept asking for people to buy memberships and they kept talking about the progress on the resort they were building so it seemed to me that they might have gotten the whole thing completed like they had promised if it hadn’t been for the feds finding out about the pay-out to Jessica Hahn to keep her quiet about her escapade with Jim Bakker and the whole project came to a screeching halt. So, what they did was go into the Bakkers house and sold off everything including the dog house and tried to repay the donors to the motel project and they threw Jim into jail. Tammy Faye didn’t know about any of it so they let her off.
I can bet you that thousands of people out in service today at their meeting for field service will be relating the experience about the Bakkers, not realizing that that day’s text is describing the Watchtower exactly. They wouldn’t believe it, since the Watchtower has the balls to print such hypocrisy, they would naturally think that it’s talking about all the “other” religions that are out to fleece money out of it’s followers and since the Watchtower has the balls to print today’s text, think that their religion is not like that.
If anyone say anything about all the monies being paid out to keep quiet all the victims of sex abuse in the Organization, you’d be hauled before a committee and kicked out for speaking out.
This is evil.
Reply
 

 Wild Olive says:

 February 13, 2015 at 9:58 pm

@pickled,well at least we know that the money went on a nice dog kennel,in a Kingdom Hall not far from me the cong spent $3000 on a coffee machine”for the field groups”
My Kingdom Hall has $30 000 worth of air con that’s not even used.
 The JW are not in any postion to critisize others about materialism
Reply
 

 Pickled brain says:

 February 14, 2015 at 4:45 am

@ Wild olive. Echo your last comment the brothers used £50,000 for a digital screen for our circuit assembly hall but you can only view at straight on, 60% of the brothers can’t see it at an angle & why do we need a Digital Screen when for the last 20 YEARS we haven’t had one. Most of the time it is one brother just delivering a talk!!! WHO is MATERIALISTIC with OUR DONATIONS!!
Reply
 

 Warren says:

 February 15, 2015 at 6:33 pm

I have been through the urgent times, we came into it in early 1975, hysteria abounded, it caused a 30 year rift in our family, here we are 40 years latter, my son was just baptised as a 20 year old, i said that we had just as much hysteria 40 years ago, comapered to now, they deny it, talk to others & they deny it, as wew grow older & die of the past will be forgotten, more stories will be made up & younger ones brought in, i garruntee they will bring out new light once the GB members die of, they did it with the generation scripture, i know i am trapped in this organisation so i don’t take it seriously anymore, just laugh at what goes on, & give them zero $
Reply
 

 Lawrence says:

 February 22, 2015 at 6:15 pm

Pickled Brain,I think if you “googled” Acts 5:1-10 you might interesting commentaries,etc on those scriptures.The question that we should also ask ourselves is why God has allowed us to read of this & other rather “unflattering” past of His.
Don’t be quick to rule out God as being unjust.
Reply
 

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← The day I prank-called a Governing Body member
“Pay attention or die!” – A disturbing glimpse of JW child indoctrination at work →

Full program of United States elders meeting leaked on YouTube
avatar
Posted on February 7, 2015

GB helper Robert Luccioni addresses elders on the broadcast
GB helper Robert Luccioni addresses elders on the broadcast

A few days ago I posted an article about a special meeting to which all elders in the United States branch territory were invited. The purpose of the LDC (Local Design/Construction Department) meeting was to unveil a new style of standardized kingdom hall that is far better suited for re-sale with commercial applications in mind.
As you would expect, rank and file members were excluded from the meeting despite their contributions paying for the buildings that were being discussed.
Now the entire 2 hour, 40 minute meeting has been leaked on YouTube. I haven’t had chance to go through it all yet, but I thought JWsurvey readers would appreciate the “heads up” and the opportunity to form their own conclusions about what was said during the event.


I am told there are copies of the video in private circulation, so even if Watchtower pulls some strings and has YouTube take the video down, you can expect it to pop up again somewhere.
When you add this latest leak to the leak of Watchtower’s elder training videos on disfellowshipping and suicidal ones 12 months ago, it should go without saying that the organization does not enjoy the uniform support of elders to which it aspires.

new-cedars-signature2






Further reading…
◾New commercial-style standard kingdom hall design unveiled to elders
◾Governing Body instructs congregations to pledge fixed monthly donations
◾Watchtower completes stealth-tithing smash-and-grab
◾JWsurvey articles on Watchtower downsizing


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← The day I prank-called a Governing Body member
“Pay attention or die!” – A disturbing glimpse of JW child indoctrination at work →

136 Responses to Full program of United States elders meeting leaked on YouTube

← Older Comments

 Pickled brain says:

 February 12, 2015 at 12:59 pm

@Ted . GREAT COMMENT about the collecting of Wood on Sabbath ! Funny how JEHOVAH could put someone to Death for that AWFUL SIN & also for Collecting Mannah on the Sabbath but HE is GOING to Forgive a VICIOUS,SADISTIC MASS MURDERER of VULNERABLE WOMEN????? Also JEHOVAH Put to DEATH Annanias& Saphira for JUST a HALF TRUTH in Acts ch.5 v1-10!!’ Oh God is SO JUST???
Reply
 

 anonymous says:

 February 12, 2015 at 2:11 pm

@Pickled brain. Yeah, Sutcliffe is “witnessing” to all the other inmates there too. I remember doing that too when I first came into what I “thought” was the “truth”.
He must believe that Armageddon is going to come any minute too, just like what we thought and he’s worried about all those people getting through Armageddon. laugh out loud, coming from me here. He’s like Jesus was when he was on the torture stake (cross) and was telling the evil doer beside him that he’d be in paradise.LOL.
I know a man who was in prison for 7 years because he molested some kids but this guy was talking to people who weren’t there all the time so he was clearly out of his gourd but the law still held him responsible. He was in a mental institution at a prison all that time and is on medication and is fine now. People understood with him.
So, there are people who really don’t know what they are doing but in Sutcliffe’s case, I don’t think he was talking to imaginary people all the time was he? There’s a difference between people who can’t control their behavior and those who chose to do what they do. I think in Sutcliffe’s case, he knew exactly what he was doing and did it anyway, because he’s a sociopath.
Sociopath’s are not curable. So, I actually think he’s more insane now that he thinks he’s in the “truth” than he was before he found the “truth”. The sad thing is that in the U.S. here, people like that do get out of prison. They are such good actors. But they get out and kill again.
In my State, we had a man that had murdered before and was in prison, but the State got sick of paying for his upkeep so they let him out, thinking because he had gotten old, that he wouldn’t kill anybody anymore but as soon as he got out, he went on a killing spree, even killing a 7 year old girl right in my little home town here and killing 3 other little girls within the State. The reason he did it was so they’d put him back in prison again because he didn’t have to worry about getting a job to support himself.
I am for the death sentence for people like that but they don’t have the death sentence in our state. According to the Mosaic law, a life for a life and Sutcliffe would have been put to death.
A lot of times like that, they won’t kill a person like that because the families want the bodies for a proper burial and the only way they will find the bodies is to give the killer a plea bargain. That is how they get out of being put to death.
You were right about all the time those elders spent with him trying to convert him. What about their families? How much time did they spend with their kids during this time? Were they just counting time?
There’s lots of women who actually want to marry people like that. I wonder if there wasn’t just a little bit of idol worship in those brother’s minds when they got to study with a notorious killer like that????
Reply
 

 Peggy says:

 February 12, 2015 at 2:41 pm

@Anonymous,
 Back when these “younger” GB members were added, I said to myself, these guys are hedging their bets. They do not actually believe the end is about to arrive. They gave themselves maybe some 30+years, to my reckoning until this batch is all dead. Then, they will have to make up another explanation for why the end hasn’t come. I once mentioned this to my JW father, and how we now have a member of the anointed younger than his own son. I said imagine dad, you could have a son on the GB!! But, we would have never have believed this back in the 1970″s. Oh no, the GB were old men. and they are gone.
 As you said there is no urgency.I also mused over what the WT would do if something like an airplane crash took all 7 lives ?
Reply
 

 Pickled brain says:

 February 12, 2015 at 3:50 pm

@Anonymous. I Agree with your Analysis of Idol Worship of such a Notorious Prisoner .These Elders will be probably used on the Platform at Assemblies to show Everyone how they bought this Mass Murderer into the Truth!! The Attention these Elders will get is sickening But if you Quietly ,Unassumingly just bought your child into the truth along with 1000s of others wouldn’t be so Dramatic on the Platform. Probably see it in a Watchtower or Awake article soon as a LIFE?experience ??
Reply
 

 Pickled brain says:

 February 12, 2015 at 4:04 pm

@Peggy You are Right !!There is NO URGENCY any more unlike the 1960s& 70s. ARMAGEDDON gets an occasional mention from time to time but not with the VIGOUR& DRAMA that we Must Save Sheepie at any cost as TIME WAS SHORT in the 1970s as the Anointed were Dying out ,only about 8000 left in 1975 & they were Old in years ;Fred Franz was 76 in that year & the GENERATION as Told by F&D SLAVE was 70 or 80 years since 1914! If a member of Governing Body was 47 when he joined as Mark Sanderson was in 2010 he would have been Laughed at as Being too young & NOT TESTED. Anyway most ANOINTED had been CHOSEN by 1935! HMmm!!’ I SEE NEW LIGHT is Getting Brighter?? No Sorry it’s the REFLECTION from Sam Herds GOLD WATCH!!’
Reply
 

 sam says:

 February 12, 2015 at 4:11 pm

Touche sir, the list you presented of serial killers that were paroled if accurate, is very disturbing.
Great point, the irony of not talking to a shunned relative for years but freely associating with scummy pete sutcliffe.
Reply
 

 anonymous says:

 February 12, 2015 at 6:36 pm

@Peggy, I also wonder what would happen if all of the Governing Body die and the Great Tribulation doesn’t break out? How could they explain that then? All of them except for Sanderson are getting up there in age. When they put Sanderson in there, he is young enough to be my child and it made me sick to my stomach.
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that these guys feel that they have received their “final sealing” which means they can’t sin anymore. That is why when they die, all the Witnesses just assume that they are in heaven with Jesus. That is the only way, you could assume they were in heaven, is if they have received their “final sealing”.
All these years, I thought it meant that they had to live all their life and die faithful (but what evidence would we have that they went to heaven or hell (grave). What is so funny about this Sutcliffe guy is that this guy has been told that he will live on the paradise earth, but anybody who claimed to be of the anointed and fell away from the “truth” will get everlasting death, being thrown into the lake of fire. Can you imagine how hard it would be for one of them to “fall out of the truth”. That is worse than being a serial killer for them.
Reply
 

 Pickled brain says:

 February 12, 2015 at 10:38 pm

@sam. Thank you for your Generous acceptance of my research. You seem a very fair person . I like your style . Take care & have a good day.!
Reply
 

 Pickled brain says:

 February 12, 2015 at 11:52 pm

I FELL ABOUT LAUGHING when I read the Days Text on the JW Website. ‘ wol.org ‘ for Friday 13 feb!! In the Comments it talks about Hypocritical Religious Leaders FLEECING the FLOCK by Buying Expensive Properties & Automobiles!!!!! Even one Bought an Air Conditioned DOG KENNEL!! Well that’s a Damn Sight Cheaper than a GOLD Sub-Mariner ROLEX!! Eh SAM HERD !! I think it Rather Sweet & Kind of Christendom Leader to buy an Air conditioned Dog Kennel!! Pet Lovers Unite!!!
Reply
 

 anonymous says:

 February 13, 2015 at 3:36 am

@Pickled brain, that dog house belonged to Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker who were the hosts of the PTL club in the U.S. from 1984-1987. They were very popular and wanted to put up a resort for their members and were asking $1,000 for membership in their resort for a 3 day stay every year for the rest of their lives, but they sold tens of thousands of memberships and the resort was never completed before they were caught and the husband was sent to jail.
What was found out is that they had paid out $279,000 to keep quiet a certain Jessica Hahn, who Jim Bakker had had sex with and they knew if it came out that they’d be done for, but there were people looking into where all that money was going. The Bakkers also kept over $3 million for themselves and one of the things that the feds saw that they had bought was that air-conditioned dog house among lots of other luxury items for themselves. The Bakkers got all that money from people sending in their $1,000 for membership into that resort they said they were building but they only got a 500 room hotel completed before they were stopped.
The Bakkers were child like, compared to the Watchtower when it comes to manipulating people out of their money. At least the Bakkers were offering a 3 day stay every year for the rest of these people’s life for that $1,000. What made it a “fraud” and what got Jim Bakker thrown into jail more than anything was that he paid out $279,000 to pay off a sex scandal out of that money that was supposed to go towards that resort. When it came to that motel that the Bakkers were building, they said most of the money went towards upkeep of the motel, according to Wikipedia. Does that sound familiar???
In the Watchtower’s case, everything sounds very much the same as the Bakkers, except the monies being sent in is supposed to be supporting the printing of more literature and you are right, I don’t think it cost as much for that air-conditoned dog house as a Rolex. But if the charities commission looked into it and saw that the money going to the Watchtower for the “world wide work” was actually going to pay off sex abuse cases against the Watchtower, what is the difference between the Bakkers and the Watchtower?
The fact that the Bakkers were selling tens of thousands of memberships for $1,000 each and had only gotten one motel built, to me, didn’t make it a fraud. I used to watch that show when they were hosting it and they kept asking for people to buy memberships and they kept talking about the progress on the resort they were building so it seemed to me that they might have gotten the whole thing completed like they had promised if it hadn’t been for the feds finding out about the pay-out to Jessica Hahn to keep her quiet about her escapade with Jim Bakker and the whole project came to a screeching halt. So, what they did was go into the Bakkers house and sold off everything including the dog house and tried to repay the donors to the motel project and they threw Jim into jail. Tammy Faye didn’t know about any of it so they let her off.
I can bet you that thousands of people out in service today at their meeting for field service will be relating the experience about the Bakkers, not realizing that that day’s text is describing the Watchtower exactly. They wouldn’t believe it, since the Watchtower has the balls to print such hypocrisy, they would naturally think that it’s talking about all the “other” religions that are out to fleece money out of it’s followers and since the Watchtower has the balls to print today’s text, think that their religion is not like that.
If anyone say anything about all the monies being paid out to keep quiet all the victims of sex abuse in the Organization, you’d be hauled before a committee and kicked out for speaking out.
This is evil.
Reply
 

 Wild Olive says:

 February 13, 2015 at 9:58 pm

@pickled,well at least we know that the money went on a nice dog kennel,in a Kingdom Hall not far from me the cong spent $3000 on a coffee machine”for the field groups”
My Kingdom Hall has $30 000 worth of air con that’s not even used.
 The JW are not in any postion to critisize others about materialism
Reply
 

 Pickled brain says:

 February 14, 2015 at 4:45 am

@ Wild olive. Echo your last comment the brothers used £50,000 for a digital screen for our circuit assembly hall but you can only view at straight on, 60% of the brothers can’t see it at an angle & why do we need a Digital Screen when for the last 20 YEARS we haven’t had one. Most of the time it is one brother just delivering a talk!!! WHO is MATERIALISTIC with OUR DONATIONS!!
Reply
 

 Warren says:

 February 15, 2015 at 6:33 pm

I have been through the urgent times, we came into it in early 1975, hysteria abounded, it caused a 30 year rift in our family, here we are 40 years latter, my son was just baptised as a 20 year old, i said that we had just as much hysteria 40 years ago, comapered to now, they deny it, talk to others & they deny it, as wew grow older & die of the past will be forgotten, more stories will be made up & younger ones brought in, i garruntee they will bring out new light once the GB members die of, they did it with the generation scripture, i know i am trapped in this organisation so i don’t take it seriously anymore, just laugh at what goes on, & give them zero $
Reply
 

 Lawrence says:

 February 22, 2015 at 6:15 pm

Pickled Brain,I think if you “googled” Acts 5:1-10 you might interesting commentaries,etc on those scriptures.The question that we should also ask ourselves is why God has allowed us to read of this & other rather “unflattering” past of His.
Don’t be quick to rule out God as being unjust.
Reply
 

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← New commercial-style standard kingdom hall design unveiled to elders
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The day I prank-called a Governing Body member
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Posted on February 7, 2015

Tony Morris - now slightly better acquainted with JWsurvey
Tony Morris – now on more personal terms with JWsurvey

On Wednesday evening something very rare and unexpected happened. I had a phone conversation with Anthony Morris III – a Governing Body member (and one of Advocate magazine’s Craziest Right-Wing Conspiracy Theorists of 2014).
As almost anyone outside of Watchtower headquarters will tell you – having a tete-a-tete with one seventh of the faithful and discreet slave is not something that happens every day.
But on this occasion, the odds were slightly more in my favor. I was armed with inside information from a reliable source who gave detailed instructions on how and when to get through.
Before the call I had tried a few times to get hold of various people in Watchtower HQ, with mixed success. The bethelite who screens PR spokesperson J.R. Brown’s calls did a masterful job of deflecting my request for a response on the Rama Singh misquote. I also had a nice chat with the bethelite responsible for the “Happy at Bethel” video, which will remain private because he was actually a really nice guy.
When it came time to try and get through to Tony, I had in mind that if I succeeded I would pretend to be someone else – at least for the first few moments of the phone call. Being open about my true identity from the beginning would almost certainly not result in a conversation of any significant length.
And so I concocted a humorous scenario in which I would be “Brother Cedars” – a newbie bethelite calling from the Brooklyn laundry room, and asking what should be done if tight pants or yoga pants are discovered among bethelite clothing. (If you don’t get the joke, click here.)
Tony was cordial, good-humored and polite, and took the call in good spirits. He quickly figured out that my cover story was a ruse, and after some light banter he set about trying to find out who I was. For the majority of our 2 minute, 20 second conversation he seemed under the impression that I was a high-spirited bethelite. Almost as soon as he realized I wasn’t an admirer, he put the receiver down.
Shortly after making this call I posted the obligatory video to YouTube, which clocked up 3,700 views in the first 24 hours. There was a huge reaction from viewers – the majority of which was positive. Many exJWs seem to have derived vicarious pleasure from hearing me tell a Governing Body member directly that I think he is deluded.


Some have questioned the wisdom of insulting Tony when, having come so far in getting through to him, a conversation seemed on the cards. But from the moment he discovered I wasn’t a bethelite, I knew I was on borrowed time. And I wanted any conversation with him to be on a frank and honest footing. Calling him deluded was NOT an invitation on my part for him to end the call – I was more than willing for him to challenge me on why I said that.
Others have suggested I should have kept my “bethelite” rouse going for longer so that I could elicit more information. However, that scale of deception is not in my nature. My aim from the beginning was to get my foot through the door and then be open with who I was as quickly as possible.
If, once the inevitable barrage of questions about my identity came, I had added yet more layers to my subterfuge, the accusations that I was living up to the lying, deceptive apostate stereotype would have been inevitable and deserved.
Still others have said I was “juvenile” and that my prank call represents a “wasted opportunity” to confront a Governing Body member with tough, meaningful questions on serious issues. Well, I make no secret that I have a juvenile streak in me, and I actually think humor is one of the most effective weapons against cults. If there is one thing cults hate, it is to be laughed at.
And I invite anyone under similar circumstances to see how many probing questions on shunning, child abuse or blood transfusions a Governing Body member will listen to before taking the easy way out.
I am not saying for a moment that my phonecall couldn’t have gone better. I am my own worst critic over this sort of thing, and can conceive of any number of ways I could have made more of the opportunity. Hindsight, after all, is a marvelous thing. But I can also easily envision the phonecall going much worse, and ending far more abruptly.
tightpantsTony
Despite drawing the ire of a few armchair activists, I feel my phone call was quite productive. It showed any JWs (or still-indoctrinated exJWs) who listen to it that a Governing Body member will readily be flippant about ‘bible counsel’ he expects ordinary JWs to treat with deadly seriousness.
You can imagine how a devout sister who has not long since thrown out all her yoga pants and husband’s tight trousers would feel listening to this conversation. For those on a tight budget who actually have to pay for their own clothes, these petty, capricious injunctions are no laughing matter.
But perhaps more importantly, my phone conversation with Tony reveals his unvarnished human side. He is not some saintly, mystical guru with a hotline to heaven, but a fairly ordinary old man who just so happens to be a spiritual overlord to 8 million doting followers.
Well, I say 8 million. Tony will have left this conversation under no illusions that not even everyone under the rooftops of Brooklyn bethel truly believe him to be anything special. And if he hadn’t figured that out before this incident, he certainly should have. You cannot claim the unquestioned, uniform loyalty of a group of people who you are threatening with cruel, immoral punishment if they dare to walk away.
As to whether there will be any more conversations with Governing Body members – I am sure this will be more problematic in the wake of my intrusion. But that needn’t stop me from trying.

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Many thanks to Vincent Deporter for supplying artwork for this article!
For an Italian translation of the conversation, please click here.


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106 Responses to The day I prank-called a Governing Body member

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 Man from the lions pit says:

 February 7, 2015 at 7:23 pm

I forgot the cartoon it’s even more funny !:-)
Humor is spice of life ! smile :-)
Reply
 

 minion says:

 February 7, 2015 at 7:25 pm

We want to thank brother Cedars and brother TTP-TM3 for there parts tonight. As you know brothers, talk #3 can now be assigned to an elder and he can pick his setting and his helper.
Brother Cedars you were working on study point #7 from our b-e TMS book, “Principal Ideas Emphasized” on page 105, under the drop box, “Why is it important” reminds us, ‘your message will be easier to remember if the principal ideas are emphasied’. . . You did an awesome approach and capture your householder’s attention. You kept him on the edge of his tight pants.
You delivered 3 points for us to glean from;
1.) Message
 2.). Method
 3.). Reason
and Brother Cedars, you ace all these points. Also too, I want to commend you on our application on how well you implemented our monthly theme from our KM “Improving Our Skills in the Ministry – Responding to an Irate householder” under bullet point, “how to do it”, . . maintain a calm and friendly demeanor. This will help defuse the situation. Do not take the householder’s reaction personally.
We thank you Brother Cedars and Brother TTP-TM3 for your assignments and we look forward to your next talk. You will be working on study point #26, . . ” Logical Development of Material” taken from page 170.
Brothers and Sisters, did we not have an uplifting meeting tonight? and to conclude the meeting let’s sing a new song to our creator and King Jehovah, song number 137, title,
” Grant Us Boldness”. . .
Several things happen that night with TTP-TM3;
1.) he had to pray for us,
 2.). requesting blessing to all,
 3.). requesting forgiveness for all,
 4.). requesting holy spirit to all,
 5.). love and peace to all,
 6.). seeking personal forgiveness
 7.). seeking humility – to be a better person.
 8.). tighten up phone security
 9.). keep close tabs on Brother Cedars
 10.) I can’t belived I got punked.
Brother Cedars, we look forward to your next talk. . . .
Reply
 

 Man from the lions pit says:

 February 7, 2015 at 7:38 pm

@minion you’re funny minion .I like your sense of humor !
Reply
 

 J says:

 February 7, 2015 at 11:14 pm

It appears to me he was just laughing because he was trying to put the pieces together. How often would he get a call from someone from the laundry or any department? Most Bethelites are probably told to follow particular paths for queries they may have that never lead them to a GB member so I’m thinking he was shocked from the word go. That’s all. Just pure shock that a lowly subordinate was approaching for advice on laundry. That he laughed later I think can be attributed to nerves. I must say, though this was funny, with more planning around the conversation, this could have been a great opportunity to convey his mindset to the readers. At the same time, kudos for giving it a shot. I daresay many have tried and failed to get even as far as you did!
Reply
 

 Shanti says:

 February 8, 2015 at 4:32 am

Bet there is a new position opening. Someone to answer his phone.
Reply
 

 J says:

 February 8, 2015 at 5:18 am

Actually, thinking on it more you can tell quite a bit about this particular GB member:
1. When Brother Cedars ;) got through and introduced himself, AM III didn’t greet him back. He merely said “uh-huh”. I speculate this cool response was because old Anthony never gets a call from the dungeons and he ain’t too all approachable.
2. Once the ruse is up, AMIII goes on the prowl for details. “What’s your name again?” Oh, now he is interested. “Where are you from? Walkill?” Apparently, AMIII planned on having this brother tracked down and spoken to about calling him directly.
Reasonably compelling evidence that the GB aren’t used to rank and file speaking to them, particularly about mundane things.
And just think that AMIII has EVERYTHING done for him. Laundry, meals, transport. And the Happy @ Bethel video shows he’s got his own dentist along with other Bethelites and no doubt doctor. He DEFINITELY has his own army of lawyers. This guy is in hog heaven and you’re not allowed in “Brother Cedars”!
Reply
 

 JJ says:

 February 8, 2015 at 5:26 am

@Cedars
 I’m interested in what these ex-JW’s are like! I thought that we have all left because the Watchtower Org is obviously a made-up, mind-controlling, ‘don’t-look-at-the-man-behind-the-curtain’ group of judgemental dumb-dumbs that have misled us and stolen both our time and our money. Fascinating that there are ones who have left that have any kind of reverence left for these guys. I asked a recently disfellowshipped friend of mine, “Why do you care what judgement they have passed on you?!? Who cares?!?” It is so easy to free your mind!!!
 There are people out there that are critiquing you for being childish with Tony Morris??? I dream of an International Convention when the audience showers Tony Morris with their shoes!!!
 These anointed-imposters deserve to be stripped of their wealth and paraded in the streets with rotten vegetables hurled at them!
Reply
 

 J says:

 February 8, 2015 at 5:59 am

I wouldn’t go that far JJ. Shoes can be expensive…
Reply
 

 Oubliette says:

 February 8, 2015 at 11:00 am

What’s wrong “with juvenile” is that it’s counter-productive.
Your suggestion that I have any “latent fear and ingrained reverence of these men” is completely unfounded and vaguely insulting.
My comments are my own and have nothing to do with the JWN crowd.
I find it disappointing that your response to my post is to attack me rather than consider my comments for what they are worth. I have always been a supporter of yours. In this one instance I disagree with your methods.
Oubliette
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 February 8, 2015 at 11:19 am

I’m not attacking you. I am just challenging your opinion, as you are challenging mine. I apologize if I have said something offensive or insulting, but I struggle to recall that I have.
You still haven’t explained why being juvenile with a member of the Governing Body is “counter-productive.”
Reply
 
 

 anonymous says:

 February 8, 2015 at 12:59 pm

Lloyd shared a call with all of us that he was able to make to one of the Governing Body. I am glad he shared it with us and not kept it to himself even if it was “juvenile” as he himself admits. (What’s wrong with kicking back and acting like a kid once in a while anyway)???
Once he got Tony on the phone, what was he to do, tell tell him something he wanted to hear or tell him the truth? That took tremendous courage to say what he did and it was far from “juvenile”.
He posted this prank call on the 5th of February and today it’s the 8th of February and right now it’s had 6,535 views with 327 likes and only 10 dislikes.
I’d say this video is a hit and going viral. That says an awful lot because of only a few dislikes. Why is it going viral with only a few dislikes? If it was “juvenile”, I don’t care. It’s getting a lot of attention and only a few dislikes and that’s what counts.
Reply
 

 Liam Smith says:

 February 8, 2015 at 2:50 pm

Cedars,
 This is the only forum I’ve ever been on where people actually appologise to each other.
 It’s actually quite sweet and refreshing where people are genuinely concerned about other people’s feeling.
 I’m not enlisting any form of sarcasm or belligerence in this comment in case anyone takes it the wrong way :-)
Reply
 

 Bad Penny says:

 February 8, 2015 at 4:37 pm

Cedars –
Love your mischievous call to TPT! We all need a smile.
 I know this isn’t funny, but I’ve just read that Peter Sutcliffe, the serial killer, has been baptised as a JW in Broadmoor. (Daily Mail 20 hours ago).
 I guess Anthony would love to receive a telephone call from him now, welcoming him as a ‘brother’.
As for all of us who are no longer a part of ‘the lie’, we need to be avoided, shunned and not spoken to.
 It’s a crazy JW World isn’t it? Thank goodness I won’t have to give this new brother a welcoming hug and kiss.
Reply
 

 Mac says:

 February 8, 2015 at 5:11 pm

Wow Lloyd, seem to be taking some heat on this one. For what it’s worth I have a great deal of respect for you and others that honestly and openly confront this organization. The information you provide is invaluable. I wish I had more of an activist streak myself, I guess I keep quiet for a few family members and one old friend. Something that surprised me is I was a little nervous for you when you got Tony Morris on the phone. Isn’t that silly? You have reached further in and out of the organization than I ever did, I am sure you saw first hand what motivates the people at the top (money). As far as being juvenile, you look like a young man to me and I think your entitled to it. I sincerely want to thank you for all the hard work and thought you put into your website.
Reply
 

 Gary Walters says:

 February 8, 2015 at 5:29 pm

I thought the conversation went well. Okay it could of gone so differently … For me the point I picked up on was ” I’m one of your biggest fans ” – he made no attempt to address that (f & d , s ) He wasn’t showing he was faithful , discreet , nor a slave !!!
 He outlined himself as being deluded, – an own goal
Reply
 

 Unholyroller says:

 February 8, 2015 at 5:49 pm

I loved it! I don’t see anything wrong with juvenile and a good laugh is always welcome. I don’t know how anyone can take this seriously anyway. The belief system of the JWs is beyond ridiculous. I get a real sense of the old JW “don’t stumble” anyone with the criticism of this prank. It’s not as if Cedars was ever going to get a confession out of him anyway. None of us is responsible for another’s waking up. If a person is having serious doubts and something like this would stop them they were not going to make it anyway. Not everyone is equipped to have their whole world crumble.
 You just know AM had a mini meltdown after getting called delusional. I am pretty sure he is used to getting his butt kissed.
 As well as the already outs I am sure this will be popular with the teenagers still stuck inside. They are the real victims here. I’m not so concerned about a bunch of narcissistic adults playing a game.
Reply
 

 Steve Jaw says:

 February 9, 2015 at 1:48 am

Although Lloyd Evans has been receiving some less than flattering publicity recently from fellow Ex JWs about what they perceive to be his prickly nature and anathematic contempt toward criticism (see Youtube), I can’t help but feel that this prank proves to be a tremendous right-hook in the face of his many critics. Utter juvenility aside, he made some truly powerful arguments (veiled though they were) about yogapants and tight trousers, and the God given and inherent liberties Of us all to wear precisely what we like without regard for the feelings of others. The deluded comment was just the icing on the Ex-JW Christmas cake for me. Keep up the laudible efforts.
Reply
 

 CovertSpiff says:

 February 9, 2015 at 3:42 am

I think that the main thing this video underlines is how utterly incapable members of the GB are of debating with or facing up to people who they do not have some kind of hold over.
Tony could have stood his ground and made a courageous defence for “The Truth” and the “Faithful Slave.” Instead, he puts the phone down as fast as he can.
Very similar to their recent performance in the Gonzalo Campos trial. They didn’t even have the spine to face open court. They can throw their weight around for a captive audience who are under threat of shunning should they disagree, but as soon as they encounter someone on a level playing field, they scurry away.
Intellectual cowards of the highest order.
Also: Nice one, Mr Cedars. You see this? This is me buying you a drink.
Reply
 

 JJ says:

 February 9, 2015 at 9:15 am

@CovertSpiff
 Exactly correct!
 Great comments!
 Sam Harris wrote an article and had a corresponding video that relates well to what you are saying about the Governing Body. It was a video of an older Japanese martial arts expert that could defeat any number of his own followers using some kind of invisible power. This master became so deluded that he believed he actually did have amazing powers. He took on a challenger who did not ‘believe in him’ and it was actually hard to watch as this old man got severely beaten on the mat. Sam Harris was using this video Ito illustrate how religious leaders seem to have great powers to their followers but have absolutely nothing over non-believers. It appears to be a common trait of every religion, cult or faith-based group.
Reply
 

 minion says:

 February 9, 2015 at 8:48 pm

@Cedars
Brother Cedars, your next Service Meeting talk will be about the life and fast times at WT of TTP-TM3.
Rumor has it the WT magz 5-15-15 has the write up. However, the web site has not released it. . .?. ?
If this is true, then we look forward to your next service talk!
Tic tock tic tock,
.
Reply
 

 Marty says:

 February 9, 2015 at 11:52 pm

Agreed on all points. I would add that the chuckling was to put our imaginary “laundry servant brother” at ease so as to find out his identity – then have him prayed over, greasing him with oil (reassign him to a place “where the need is great!”)
Reply
 

 PaxRomana says:

 February 10, 2015 at 1:15 am

Impressive that you kept your composure for so long. I mean, saying the words ‘yoga pants’ to Anthony Morris would have instantly resulted in fits of laughter on my part.
On a more serious note: it was disappointing that he hung up. I know he isn’t used to being challenged on anything. But as a ‘Christian’ leader, he should embrace these questions. He could have used it as an opportunity of some kind to have a meaningful dialogue. Oh well.
Good stuff, Cedars. Very interesting.
Reply
 

 Tuxedo Joe says:

 February 10, 2015 at 5:09 am

I think the most charitable description I can give for this prank call is that it was a non-event. Let’s be honest Lloyd, you’re not exactly blessed in the humour department, regardless of the-somewhat strained- positive comments for this video.
I remember your dancing antics in the ‘Happy’ video (with the hilarious ‘Crisis of Conscience’ book move) and this is equally painful to watch. Frankly, you look like a naughty schoolboy playing up to his classmates. The fact that you think it’s ever-so-daring to prank a GB member, says more about the power they hold over you than anything else.
If losing respect was the purpose of the exercise, you would have achieved top marks. The truth is that you made yourself look a bit silly, whilst Tony Morris remained completely unfazed by your comments and maintained a dignified stance. I’m not supporting him or the Society, it’s just my impression of the call (and clearly I’m not alone in this view).
If I was you, I’d stick to the mean-spirited, obsessive articles. They’re equally worthless, but at least it’s what you’re known for. Comedy just isn’t your bag. Quite honestly, this was pants.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 February 10, 2015 at 8:44 am

“If I was you, I’d stick to the mean-spirited, obsessive articles.”
Thanks for identifying yourself as a fan of Tony and Co. I wouldn’t expect someone in your position to have much of a sense of humor about prank-calling a spokesperson of the Almighty.
Reply
 
 

 anonymous says:

 February 10, 2015 at 8:35 am

@Tuxedo Joe. Just an observation on your comment. I don’t remember Cedar’s comment was meant to be put on Cedar’s most funny home videos. The goal was to just get through to a Governing Body member and tell that man an honest observation about his stupid tight pants comments and Cedars was surprised that he got through and he had his camera going to record it if he got through and he was surprised he even got through and it showed on his face. Big deal, the expression on his face.
You make the comment that you aren’t supporting the Society so are you on their side? Do you support the Society? If not, would you have the courage to confront them like Cedars did in a phone call and make an honest comment about how stupid their comments could be taken by the public or do you look at the Governing Body as “above” the rank and file and above making a disparaging comment to them as if they deserve more respect than the average rank and file member?
If you think these guys are “untouchable” you are giving them the impression that they are better than any other brother in the organization. We all are supposed to be able to take criticism aren’t we? Think about the Ministry School? If we all can take criticism, then they should be able to take it too. Nobody dares to do that to them? Why is that? Aren’t they supposed to be the “slave”? Or are they the “master” or are they the man behind the curtain like in the Wizard of Oz, just blowing a lot of hot air and pretending to be something they aren’t?
What did these guys ever do to deserve that kind of adulation and respect? At least with the Catholic Church when the Catholic Church elects a new Pope, the Cardinals all get together and they vote on a new Pope. Sometimes it takes several days. It’s not a set-up, where there’s just the the one Pope and he gets to select his next “successor” as he sees fit from his buddies and this next guy gets to rule over 800 million people who don’t have to answer to anybody about anything and the and file have to follow every stupid order they come up with or get kicked out with not a friend in the world left to them, or suck it up and pretend like it’s the “truth” when they know the new pope is a walking idiot.
These guys set themselves up in their little Kingdom and nobody even questions it. Why is that? The only difference is that instead of having just the one Pope like the Catholic Church, there’s seven “Popes” but they get to chose who their next Pope is going to be amongst their buddies. Nobody else has any say in the matter.
The Bible says that pride goes before the fall. That means that prideful people will be brought down by Jehovah. Are these people prideful? Jehovah hates prideful people. That is why Nebuchadnezzar ate grass like a bull for 7 years until he learned humility. A humble man won’t hang up when they are called on the carpet for making a stupid comment. A humble man would have asked why Cedars made that comment and learned from it.
I know if anybody called me on the phone and called me on the carpet for a comment that I made that they thought was stupid and deluded, I wouldn’t hang up on them. I would have tried to make it right. That is what Jesus said at Matthew 20:24-27 “When the ten others heard of this, they became indignant at the two brothers. But Jesus, calling them to him, said: “You know that the rulers of the nations lord it over them and the great men wield authority over them. This is not the way among you, but whoever wants to become great among you must be your minister, and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave.”
The Watchtower is clever in putting in the literature how we (rank and file) must be “obedient” to the “slave” but you must remember that in the July 2013 Study Watchtower, the Watchtower admitted that Jesus hasn’t “come” yet and won’t until the Great Tribulation and it’s then that Jesus will say “good and faithful slave” you have done a good job and now I will appoint you over all my belongings. The Great Tribulation hasn’t come yet and Jesus hasn’t pronounced the “slave” good and faithful yet so all they (Watchtower) are is a publishing company that spews out tons of literature who gets it’s rank and file to supply free labor in the guise of “saving’ people at Armageddon but it’s up to Jesus to say who is good and faithful. It isn’t up to them.
They deserve no respect from us because they put themselves in the place of Jesus in pronouncing themselves good and faithful. They mock the Bible. They deserve no respect. As a matter of fact, they put themselves in a very dangerous position with God if they actually do believe in God at all.
Reply
 

 Pickled brain says:

 February 10, 2015 at 8:39 am

@Tuxedo Joe. YOU ARE MEAN SPIRITED in YOUR COMMENTs about Cedars. How much money,Time & Energy HAVE YOU Expended in Exposing this FRAUDULENT ORGANISATION ???? Tuxedo Joe YOU SOUND LIKE A COWBOY !!!! Those of us who have LOST LOVED ONES because of Shunning& DISFELLOWSHIPPING because of disagreement on Doctrine which has CHANGED CONSTANTLY from when we Said YES to those Baptismal Questions … WE ALL APPRECIATE what CEDARS WEBSITE has Done in providing a Place where we can discuss HOW WE ALL FEEL !!! So TUXEDO JOE GO & CRAWL BACK INTO YOUR HOLE !!!
Reply
 

 Pickled brain says:

 February 10, 2015 at 8:46 am

@Anonymous .Thank you for Eloquently putting Tuxedo Joe Right about a Few Things…I am WORKING on Tactfulness at the MOment in the THEOCRATIC Ministry School & USE Of CAPITALS !! I keep Getting a ‘W’ from the Ministry School Overseer ! I CANNOT for the LIFE of Me WHY??? Then again I have only been working on it for 33 Years!!
Reply
 

 anonymous says:

 February 10, 2015 at 10:04 am

@Pickled brain, I feel sorry for people like Tuxedo Joe. You could tell them that Anthony Morris the 3rd likes to kill baby kittens and feed them to his pet snake back in his million dollar apartment and owns 10 Rolex watches and it wouldn’t sink into them, just what a perverted religion they belong to. They are to be pitied.
Reply
 

 Pickled brain says:

 February 10, 2015 at 10:19 am

@Anonymous . I AM SURE Anthony Morris EATS HAMSTERS for Breakfast & is the REINCARNATED POL POT of Cambodia who Slaughtered 2 Million people I know Anthony is POTTY because he thinks 7 BILLION Men ,WOMEN,CHILDREN & BABIES will be DESTROYED at ARMAGEDDON !
Reply
 

 anonymous says:

 February 10, 2015 at 10:41 am

@Pickled brain, like the God they worship, they are very much like Pol Pot. This is he kind of destruction that Jehovah’s Witnesses gleefully look forward to.
Psalms 137:9: “Happy will be that grabs ahold and does dash to pieces your children against the craig.” (This is what would happen to Babylon)
Jeremiah 13:14: “And I will dash them one against another, both the fathers and the sons, at the same time, is the utterance of Jehovah. “I shall show no compassion, nor feel any sorrow and I shall not have the mercy to keep from bringing them to ruin.”
Or how about Jeremiah 51:22,23: “And by you I will dash man and woman to pieces, and by you I will dash old man and boy to pieces, and by you I will dash young man and virgin to pieces and by you I will dash shepherd and his drove to pieces, and by you I will dash farmer and his span (of animals) to pieces, and by you I will dash governors and deputy rulers to pieces.”
Or how about Isaiah 13:15,16: “Every one that is found and every one that is caught in the sweep will fall by the sword; and their very children will be dashed to pieces before their eyes. Their houses will be pillaged, and their own wives will be raped.”
Or how about 2nd Kings 15:16: “Menahem proceeded to strike down Tiphsah and all that was in it and it’s territory out from Tirzah, because it did not open up, and he went striking it down. All it’s pregnant women he ripped up.”
Or how about Hosea 13:16: “Samaria will be held guilty, for she is actually rebellious against her God. Their own children will be dashed to pieces and their pregnant women themselves will be ripped up.”
Reply
 

 gameisover says:

 February 10, 2015 at 11:32 am

Please don’t compare the 7 dwarfs(in mind and heart)
 to the Pope. The Catholic church has a history of corruption
 at the top, although not always, but the middle and bottom
 are responsible for all the major missionary activities world
 wide since the beginning of Christianity, and to the present. No other group
 has done more for humankind, plus the preaching of the
 doctrine of Christ worldwide. It is apostolic. They put
 together the Bible canon and for over 1,500 years they
 were at it. Then came dissentions and inventions.
 And the biggest one is the Watchtower Society.
 And to think we believed all the poison they spud out
 against all other religions. It was the Chinese drop.
 It bore a hole through our brains and we just parroted
 everything they taught us, and the worse part is that we actually believed it! Today I am free to believe or not
 believe, but I think everyone should get their due for the
 good works they do.
 ,
Reply
 

 Pickled brain says:

 February 10, 2015 at 11:33 am

@Anonymous. Again Excellent Scriptural Analysis that SHOWS HOW CRUEL & VICIOUS & BARBARIC the JWs Version of ARMAGEDDON is!!!
Reply
 

 anonymous says:

 February 10, 2015 at 11:42 am

@Gameisover, when I was talking about the Pope being a walking idiot, I wasn’t talking about the Pope in the Catholic church. I was talking about one of our “popes”.
Reply
 

 Ted says:

 February 10, 2015 at 11:51 am

@Tuxedo Joe, most of us commenting here have apostatised from a
 degenerate, pseudo religious org. A death dealing, family destroying,
 Paedophile refuge, and many of us have been personally affected by
 these things.
I’d say it’s understandable that our expressed opinions, are much less
 than benevolent. If strong condemnation of injustice and hypocrisy
 is classed as bitterness, then Jesus was indeed a bitter person.
As for your own ad hominem attack, it contained plenty of nastiness
 and venom, and had little more purpose than that.
Reply
 

 anonymous says:

 February 10, 2015 at 1:44 pm

@Gameisover, but I did love your comment!
Reply
 

 Searcher says:

 February 10, 2015 at 5:54 pm

Hi Lloyd. That was great! If anything, the SOB sure as heck can’t take criticism or answer a critic with a proper argument or rebuttal. What the hang up proves is he lost an opportunity to try and set the record strait and defend his really indefensible positions on tight pants. This shows what a happens when he and other GB members (remember the court case subpoena?) do when faced with real criticism. They RUN like cowards with the tail between their legs instead of engage in defending their screwball positions.
Reply
 

 gary says:

 February 10, 2015 at 7:44 pm

As regards comments regarding the YR I do not advocate violence of any discription.
 If there is and whether or not there is a God I wouldn’t want to be that man.
Reply
 

 minion says:

 February 10, 2015 at 9:06 pm

Amazing,
Cedars video launched with over 3,000 views with in 24 hrs. 5 days later 7,694 views.
Will this reach 8.2 million or 19.6 million views?
Or 7.2 billion views?
We all need take to relax and laugh at ourselfs.
Brother Cedars, job well done!!
.
Reply
 

 Criticus says:

 February 11, 2015 at 4:09 pm

@gameisover:
Allow me to point out that your comment sports one of the most erroneous notions at large, which is:
“The RCC put together the Bible canon.”
Nothing can be more remote from the truth. The Tanakh – our “OT” with its 3 main sections Torah, Nevi’im and Ketuvim – was complete by 200 B.C. at the latest, bec. it was by then that the LXX-translators had completed rendering it in Greek, and which is also why Jesus and the NT-writers could quote from almost of the OT-books except a few, like Esther. Which doesn’t mean those other books weren’t part of the Tanakh, as all old codices etc. show. This was way before the RCC appeared on the horizon.
As to what we today call the NT: The Muratorian fragment from around 200 A.D. demonstrates that the entire NT-canon except some late books (2 Pet, James, Rev) was established by then; the few books not listed, or disputed, appear in all list of “approved” books shortly afterwards, which was long before there even existed any traces of the RCC which came into being only in connection with emperor Constantin during the 4th century A.D.
Hence: The RCC had nothing – ABSOLUTELY NOTHING !!! – to do with compiling the canon of our Bible.
What the RCC did, in contrast, besides stipulating the Latin Bible with all its translation errors plus unbiblical and later added apocryphic books as the only “usable” one, was persecuting & burning alive all those who dared to point out the RCCs errors and rottenness, as well as trying to move on as regards Bible translation and research, like Erasmus of Rotterdam and others, who needed to fear for their lives for the “crime” of making available the original (not Latin) Bible texts that way surpassed the Vulgate, but were not “approved” by the power-crazy clergy.
What the WTS does – just like the RCC did – is imposing a bad Bible translation (NWT) that is covering up, altering, or distorting the original sense of the message, like for example in their biased “exercising faith”, “from house to house”, “all other things” etc. misleading renderings, and imposing her church rules based on those warped scriptures as the “Only Truth”, and figuratively killing all those who dare to point out the WTS’ errors. So, yes, at least here we do agree: RCC & WTS – partners in crime indeed!
Greetings,
Criticus
Reply
 

 dontknowwheretogo says:

 February 12, 2015 at 10:41 am

I’ll try again.
I loved the prank call, I loved Cedars did and it actually worked…bear in mind I am out of the org.
It was “juvenile” or as Oubilette puts it “counter-productive” not in the sense that we that are out would see it but “juvenile” or “counter-productive” from the point of view of a still-in person who reads Cedars site.
Cedars site is one of very few sites that portray excellent info without any negative twist or apostate feel thus Cedars site is in a unique place where it can attract those who have a crisis with their faith and help them get mentally out.
It’s “juvenile” or “counter-productive” to these ones and thus counter-productive to the goal that Cedars has in helping people see the org for what it is.
For those of us that ARE out the prank call was brilliant…but if Cedars is serious in his goal in trying to help as many see the org for what it is then, in my opinion, he needs to curtail this type of thing…articles about AM3 or prank calls, whilst funny to us mentally out and actually reinforce our conviction that the org is crap actually deters those from looking to Cedars site as a site that they can trust.
I’ve tried in vain to make this point clear to Cedars…I have no beef with Lloyd and love his work, love his site and in fact helped me get out but I feel he will lose his credibility, not with me or any of us that are out, but with those who are on the fence.
It is those that we need to help the most…hence why I agree with Oubilette and why I have posted furiously why this was not a good idea.
I’ll repeat, I loved it, those who are out loved it…those who are still in and fighting mentally who may come out will be deterred to stay away from this site if this kind of posts continue.
And whilst I disagree with Cedars on this matter I still want to assure him of my respect for him, for what he has done and what he is doing.
All I ask is that you see past the negative comments and actually see what we are saying any WHY we are saying it. Because if you can you are on a winner here, your site can become the holy grail to all exjw’s in that we can refer jws to it safe in knowledge it won’t appear as an apostate site and it will help these ones get out.
Reply
 

 CovertSpiff says:

 February 12, 2015 at 11:47 am

Just another observation. I’ve seen a few comments suggesting that Lloyd somehow wasted this opportunity by making this into a prank call when he could have instead confronted Tony Morris Cubed with some of the issues. scandals or doctrinal flaws that many ex and serving JW’s are concerned about.
I think it’s pretty clear from this call that, had Lloyd attempted to begin a genuine discussion over issues of substance, that handset would have crashed into the cradle faster than Jehu in a chariot. Ironically, a prank call aimed at getting a laugh was probably the only way to get this “Faithful and Wise Man” to engage with his critics for anything more than 30 seconds. Which says a lot more about this “Faithful and Wise Man” than it does about his critics.
Reply
 

 anonymous says:

 February 12, 2015 at 1:07 pm

@dontknowwheretogo. My husband is a born-in and he wouldn’t go to this web site for anything in the world. He abhors Cedars and anything that even suggests it’s against he Society in any way. There is absolutely nothing I could say to him to make him even consider looking at any of these articles. I have told him and the elders in our congregation that I absolutely hate the Governing Body. I am not afraid to tell them that. I can guarantee you that these kind of people will not come onto a web site like this. People like that are obedient to the Society in never checking out anything like this site.
The only ones who will come here are the curious and damaged. These people already are not listening to what the Society is telling them, ie. staying away from sites like this. These people already don’t have the total respect for orders from the Governing Body. These people are open enough to disobey the Society so they already have lost total respect for them. I wouldn’t worry about people like that coming on here and seeing Cedar’s call. They wouldn’t be here anyway.
The ones that are coming here, need to see that the Governing Body members are demanding to be seen as anointed by Jesus and appointed by Jesus Christ as Faithful and Discreet when they have absolutely no evidence of such a thing.
Cedars didn’t make that phone call to make fun of Tony Morris. He did it to tell the Emperor that he has no clothes, which nobody else has the courage to do. What he did was courageous beyond courageous and he should be commended for what he did. These men aren’t super special and according to the Bible, they shouldn’t think of themselves like that either, that is if they actually are Christian, like they claim and nobody should be afraid of them to tell them that. Jesus would. Jesus would have thrown people like that out of the Temple with a whip.
These men make themselves demigods who demand unquestioning obedience and that puts 8 million Jehovah’s Witnesses in danger every day of their life because if any one of them should get into an accident or need an operation, they could lose their life because of that unquestioning obedience to this organization.
These men need to be taken down, both in stature and in obedience. This organization run by those men, cause nothing but pain and suffering and loss to all of it’s followers of being able to lead a happy and fulfilling life now and into the future. They need to be exposed for what they are, which is nothing but deluded self-appointed demigods, taking advantage of anyone that they can suck into their cult.
I don’t agree with your assessment of that phone call at all. He wasn’t trying to be funny. He didn’t do it to poke fun of Morris. What he did was courageous.
Reply
 

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The day I prank-called a Governing Body member
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Posted on February 7, 2015

Tony Morris - now slightly better acquainted with JWsurvey
Tony Morris – now on more personal terms with JWsurvey

On Wednesday evening something very rare and unexpected happened. I had a phone conversation with Anthony Morris III – a Governing Body member (and one of Advocate magazine’s Craziest Right-Wing Conspiracy Theorists of 2014).
As almost anyone outside of Watchtower headquarters will tell you – having a tete-a-tete with one seventh of the faithful and discreet slave is not something that happens every day.
But on this occasion, the odds were slightly more in my favor. I was armed with inside information from a reliable source who gave detailed instructions on how and when to get through.
Before the call I had tried a few times to get hold of various people in Watchtower HQ, with mixed success. The bethelite who screens PR spokesperson J.R. Brown’s calls did a masterful job of deflecting my request for a response on the Rama Singh misquote. I also had a nice chat with the bethelite responsible for the “Happy at Bethel” video, which will remain private because he was actually a really nice guy.
When it came time to try and get through to Tony, I had in mind that if I succeeded I would pretend to be someone else – at least for the first few moments of the phone call. Being open about my true identity from the beginning would almost certainly not result in a conversation of any significant length.
And so I concocted a humorous scenario in which I would be “Brother Cedars” – a newbie bethelite calling from the Brooklyn laundry room, and asking what should be done if tight pants or yoga pants are discovered among bethelite clothing. (If you don’t get the joke, click here.)
Tony was cordial, good-humored and polite, and took the call in good spirits. He quickly figured out that my cover story was a ruse, and after some light banter he set about trying to find out who I was. For the majority of our 2 minute, 20 second conversation he seemed under the impression that I was a high-spirited bethelite. Almost as soon as he realized I wasn’t an admirer, he put the receiver down.
Shortly after making this call I posted the obligatory video to YouTube, which clocked up 3,700 views in the first 24 hours. There was a huge reaction from viewers – the majority of which was positive. Many exJWs seem to have derived vicarious pleasure from hearing me tell a Governing Body member directly that I think he is deluded.


Some have questioned the wisdom of insulting Tony when, having come so far in getting through to him, a conversation seemed on the cards. But from the moment he discovered I wasn’t a bethelite, I knew I was on borrowed time. And I wanted any conversation with him to be on a frank and honest footing. Calling him deluded was NOT an invitation on my part for him to end the call – I was more than willing for him to challenge me on why I said that.
Others have suggested I should have kept my “bethelite” rouse going for longer so that I could elicit more information. However, that scale of deception is not in my nature. My aim from the beginning was to get my foot through the door and then be open with who I was as quickly as possible.
If, once the inevitable barrage of questions about my identity came, I had added yet more layers to my subterfuge, the accusations that I was living up to the lying, deceptive apostate stereotype would have been inevitable and deserved.
Still others have said I was “juvenile” and that my prank call represents a “wasted opportunity” to confront a Governing Body member with tough, meaningful questions on serious issues. Well, I make no secret that I have a juvenile streak in me, and I actually think humor is one of the most effective weapons against cults. If there is one thing cults hate, it is to be laughed at.
And I invite anyone under similar circumstances to see how many probing questions on shunning, child abuse or blood transfusions a Governing Body member will listen to before taking the easy way out.
I am not saying for a moment that my phonecall couldn’t have gone better. I am my own worst critic over this sort of thing, and can conceive of any number of ways I could have made more of the opportunity. Hindsight, after all, is a marvelous thing. But I can also easily envision the phonecall going much worse, and ending far more abruptly.
tightpantsTony
Despite drawing the ire of a few armchair activists, I feel my phone call was quite productive. It showed any JWs (or still-indoctrinated exJWs) who listen to it that a Governing Body member will readily be flippant about ‘bible counsel’ he expects ordinary JWs to treat with deadly seriousness.
You can imagine how a devout sister who has not long since thrown out all her yoga pants and husband’s tight trousers would feel listening to this conversation. For those on a tight budget who actually have to pay for their own clothes, these petty, capricious injunctions are no laughing matter.
But perhaps more importantly, my phone conversation with Tony reveals his unvarnished human side. He is not some saintly, mystical guru with a hotline to heaven, but a fairly ordinary old man who just so happens to be a spiritual overlord to 8 million doting followers.
Well, I say 8 million. Tony will have left this conversation under no illusions that not even everyone under the rooftops of Brooklyn bethel truly believe him to be anything special. And if he hadn’t figured that out before this incident, he certainly should have. You cannot claim the unquestioned, uniform loyalty of a group of people who you are threatening with cruel, immoral punishment if they dare to walk away.
As to whether there will be any more conversations with Governing Body members – I am sure this will be more problematic in the wake of my intrusion. But that needn’t stop me from trying.

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Many thanks to Vincent Deporter for supplying artwork for this article!
For an Italian translation of the conversation, please click here.


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106 Responses to The day I prank-called a Governing Body member

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 Man from the lions pit says:

 February 7, 2015 at 7:23 pm

I forgot the cartoon it’s even more funny !:-)
Humor is spice of life ! smile :-)
Reply
 

 minion says:

 February 7, 2015 at 7:25 pm

We want to thank brother Cedars and brother TTP-TM3 for there parts tonight. As you know brothers, talk #3 can now be assigned to an elder and he can pick his setting and his helper.
Brother Cedars you were working on study point #7 from our b-e TMS book, “Principal Ideas Emphasized” on page 105, under the drop box, “Why is it important” reminds us, ‘your message will be easier to remember if the principal ideas are emphasied’. . . You did an awesome approach and capture your householder’s attention. You kept him on the edge of his tight pants.
You delivered 3 points for us to glean from;
1.) Message
 2.). Method
 3.). Reason
and Brother Cedars, you ace all these points. Also too, I want to commend you on our application on how well you implemented our monthly theme from our KM “Improving Our Skills in the Ministry – Responding to an Irate householder” under bullet point, “how to do it”, . . maintain a calm and friendly demeanor. This will help defuse the situation. Do not take the householder’s reaction personally.
We thank you Brother Cedars and Brother TTP-TM3 for your assignments and we look forward to your next talk. You will be working on study point #26, . . ” Logical Development of Material” taken from page 170.
Brothers and Sisters, did we not have an uplifting meeting tonight? and to conclude the meeting let’s sing a new song to our creator and King Jehovah, song number 137, title,
” Grant Us Boldness”. . .
Several things happen that night with TTP-TM3;
1.) he had to pray for us,
 2.). requesting blessing to all,
 3.). requesting forgiveness for all,
 4.). requesting holy spirit to all,
 5.). love and peace to all,
 6.). seeking personal forgiveness
 7.). seeking humility – to be a better person.
 8.). tighten up phone security
 9.). keep close tabs on Brother Cedars
 10.) I can’t belived I got punked.
Brother Cedars, we look forward to your next talk. . . .
Reply
 

 Man from the lions pit says:

 February 7, 2015 at 7:38 pm

@minion you’re funny minion .I like your sense of humor !
Reply
 

 J says:

 February 7, 2015 at 11:14 pm

It appears to me he was just laughing because he was trying to put the pieces together. How often would he get a call from someone from the laundry or any department? Most Bethelites are probably told to follow particular paths for queries they may have that never lead them to a GB member so I’m thinking he was shocked from the word go. That’s all. Just pure shock that a lowly subordinate was approaching for advice on laundry. That he laughed later I think can be attributed to nerves. I must say, though this was funny, with more planning around the conversation, this could have been a great opportunity to convey his mindset to the readers. At the same time, kudos for giving it a shot. I daresay many have tried and failed to get even as far as you did!
Reply
 

 Shanti says:

 February 8, 2015 at 4:32 am

Bet there is a new position opening. Someone to answer his phone.
Reply
 

 J says:

 February 8, 2015 at 5:18 am

Actually, thinking on it more you can tell quite a bit about this particular GB member:
1. When Brother Cedars ;) got through and introduced himself, AM III didn’t greet him back. He merely said “uh-huh”. I speculate this cool response was because old Anthony never gets a call from the dungeons and he ain’t too all approachable.
2. Once the ruse is up, AMIII goes on the prowl for details. “What’s your name again?” Oh, now he is interested. “Where are you from? Walkill?” Apparently, AMIII planned on having this brother tracked down and spoken to about calling him directly.
Reasonably compelling evidence that the GB aren’t used to rank and file speaking to them, particularly about mundane things.
And just think that AMIII has EVERYTHING done for him. Laundry, meals, transport. And the Happy @ Bethel video shows he’s got his own dentist along with other Bethelites and no doubt doctor. He DEFINITELY has his own army of lawyers. This guy is in hog heaven and you’re not allowed in “Brother Cedars”!
Reply
 

 JJ says:

 February 8, 2015 at 5:26 am

@Cedars
 I’m interested in what these ex-JW’s are like! I thought that we have all left because the Watchtower Org is obviously a made-up, mind-controlling, ‘don’t-look-at-the-man-behind-the-curtain’ group of judgemental dumb-dumbs that have misled us and stolen both our time and our money. Fascinating that there are ones who have left that have any kind of reverence left for these guys. I asked a recently disfellowshipped friend of mine, “Why do you care what judgement they have passed on you?!? Who cares?!?” It is so easy to free your mind!!!
 There are people out there that are critiquing you for being childish with Tony Morris??? I dream of an International Convention when the audience showers Tony Morris with their shoes!!!
 These anointed-imposters deserve to be stripped of their wealth and paraded in the streets with rotten vegetables hurled at them!
Reply
 

 J says:

 February 8, 2015 at 5:59 am

I wouldn’t go that far JJ. Shoes can be expensive…
Reply
 

 Oubliette says:

 February 8, 2015 at 11:00 am

What’s wrong “with juvenile” is that it’s counter-productive.
Your suggestion that I have any “latent fear and ingrained reverence of these men” is completely unfounded and vaguely insulting.
My comments are my own and have nothing to do with the JWN crowd.
I find it disappointing that your response to my post is to attack me rather than consider my comments for what they are worth. I have always been a supporter of yours. In this one instance I disagree with your methods.
Oubliette
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 February 8, 2015 at 11:19 am

I’m not attacking you. I am just challenging your opinion, as you are challenging mine. I apologize if I have said something offensive or insulting, but I struggle to recall that I have.
You still haven’t explained why being juvenile with a member of the Governing Body is “counter-productive.”
Reply
 
 

 anonymous says:

 February 8, 2015 at 12:59 pm

Lloyd shared a call with all of us that he was able to make to one of the Governing Body. I am glad he shared it with us and not kept it to himself even if it was “juvenile” as he himself admits. (What’s wrong with kicking back and acting like a kid once in a while anyway)???
Once he got Tony on the phone, what was he to do, tell tell him something he wanted to hear or tell him the truth? That took tremendous courage to say what he did and it was far from “juvenile”.
He posted this prank call on the 5th of February and today it’s the 8th of February and right now it’s had 6,535 views with 327 likes and only 10 dislikes.
I’d say this video is a hit and going viral. That says an awful lot because of only a few dislikes. Why is it going viral with only a few dislikes? If it was “juvenile”, I don’t care. It’s getting a lot of attention and only a few dislikes and that’s what counts.
Reply
 

 Liam Smith says:

 February 8, 2015 at 2:50 pm

Cedars,
 This is the only forum I’ve ever been on where people actually appologise to each other.
 It’s actually quite sweet and refreshing where people are genuinely concerned about other people’s feeling.
 I’m not enlisting any form of sarcasm or belligerence in this comment in case anyone takes it the wrong way :-)
Reply
 

 Bad Penny says:

 February 8, 2015 at 4:37 pm

Cedars –
Love your mischievous call to TPT! We all need a smile.
 I know this isn’t funny, but I’ve just read that Peter Sutcliffe, the serial killer, has been baptised as a JW in Broadmoor. (Daily Mail 20 hours ago).
 I guess Anthony would love to receive a telephone call from him now, welcoming him as a ‘brother’.
As for all of us who are no longer a part of ‘the lie’, we need to be avoided, shunned and not spoken to.
 It’s a crazy JW World isn’t it? Thank goodness I won’t have to give this new brother a welcoming hug and kiss.
Reply
 

 Mac says:

 February 8, 2015 at 5:11 pm

Wow Lloyd, seem to be taking some heat on this one. For what it’s worth I have a great deal of respect for you and others that honestly and openly confront this organization. The information you provide is invaluable. I wish I had more of an activist streak myself, I guess I keep quiet for a few family members and one old friend. Something that surprised me is I was a little nervous for you when you got Tony Morris on the phone. Isn’t that silly? You have reached further in and out of the organization than I ever did, I am sure you saw first hand what motivates the people at the top (money). As far as being juvenile, you look like a young man to me and I think your entitled to it. I sincerely want to thank you for all the hard work and thought you put into your website.
Reply
 

 Gary Walters says:

 February 8, 2015 at 5:29 pm

I thought the conversation went well. Okay it could of gone so differently … For me the point I picked up on was ” I’m one of your biggest fans ” – he made no attempt to address that (f & d , s ) He wasn’t showing he was faithful , discreet , nor a slave !!!
 He outlined himself as being deluded, – an own goal
Reply
 

 Unholyroller says:

 February 8, 2015 at 5:49 pm

I loved it! I don’t see anything wrong with juvenile and a good laugh is always welcome. I don’t know how anyone can take this seriously anyway. The belief system of the JWs is beyond ridiculous. I get a real sense of the old JW “don’t stumble” anyone with the criticism of this prank. It’s not as if Cedars was ever going to get a confession out of him anyway. None of us is responsible for another’s waking up. If a person is having serious doubts and something like this would stop them they were not going to make it anyway. Not everyone is equipped to have their whole world crumble.
 You just know AM had a mini meltdown after getting called delusional. I am pretty sure he is used to getting his butt kissed.
 As well as the already outs I am sure this will be popular with the teenagers still stuck inside. They are the real victims here. I’m not so concerned about a bunch of narcissistic adults playing a game.
Reply
 

 Steve Jaw says:

 February 9, 2015 at 1:48 am

Although Lloyd Evans has been receiving some less than flattering publicity recently from fellow Ex JWs about what they perceive to be his prickly nature and anathematic contempt toward criticism (see Youtube), I can’t help but feel that this prank proves to be a tremendous right-hook in the face of his many critics. Utter juvenility aside, he made some truly powerful arguments (veiled though they were) about yogapants and tight trousers, and the God given and inherent liberties Of us all to wear precisely what we like without regard for the feelings of others. The deluded comment was just the icing on the Ex-JW Christmas cake for me. Keep up the laudible efforts.
Reply
 

 CovertSpiff says:

 February 9, 2015 at 3:42 am

I think that the main thing this video underlines is how utterly incapable members of the GB are of debating with or facing up to people who they do not have some kind of hold over.
Tony could have stood his ground and made a courageous defence for “The Truth” and the “Faithful Slave.” Instead, he puts the phone down as fast as he can.
Very similar to their recent performance in the Gonzalo Campos trial. They didn’t even have the spine to face open court. They can throw their weight around for a captive audience who are under threat of shunning should they disagree, but as soon as they encounter someone on a level playing field, they scurry away.
Intellectual cowards of the highest order.
Also: Nice one, Mr Cedars. You see this? This is me buying you a drink.
Reply
 

 JJ says:

 February 9, 2015 at 9:15 am

@CovertSpiff
 Exactly correct!
 Great comments!
 Sam Harris wrote an article and had a corresponding video that relates well to what you are saying about the Governing Body. It was a video of an older Japanese martial arts expert that could defeat any number of his own followers using some kind of invisible power. This master became so deluded that he believed he actually did have amazing powers. He took on a challenger who did not ‘believe in him’ and it was actually hard to watch as this old man got severely beaten on the mat. Sam Harris was using this video Ito illustrate how religious leaders seem to have great powers to their followers but have absolutely nothing over non-believers. It appears to be a common trait of every religion, cult or faith-based group.
Reply
 

 minion says:

 February 9, 2015 at 8:48 pm

@Cedars
Brother Cedars, your next Service Meeting talk will be about the life and fast times at WT of TTP-TM3.
Rumor has it the WT magz 5-15-15 has the write up. However, the web site has not released it. . .?. ?
If this is true, then we look forward to your next service talk!
Tic tock tic tock,
.
Reply
 

 Marty says:

 February 9, 2015 at 11:52 pm

Agreed on all points. I would add that the chuckling was to put our imaginary “laundry servant brother” at ease so as to find out his identity – then have him prayed over, greasing him with oil (reassign him to a place “where the need is great!”)
Reply
 

 PaxRomana says:

 February 10, 2015 at 1:15 am

Impressive that you kept your composure for so long. I mean, saying the words ‘yoga pants’ to Anthony Morris would have instantly resulted in fits of laughter on my part.
On a more serious note: it was disappointing that he hung up. I know he isn’t used to being challenged on anything. But as a ‘Christian’ leader, he should embrace these questions. He could have used it as an opportunity of some kind to have a meaningful dialogue. Oh well.
Good stuff, Cedars. Very interesting.
Reply
 

 Tuxedo Joe says:

 February 10, 2015 at 5:09 am

I think the most charitable description I can give for this prank call is that it was a non-event. Let’s be honest Lloyd, you’re not exactly blessed in the humour department, regardless of the-somewhat strained- positive comments for this video.
I remember your dancing antics in the ‘Happy’ video (with the hilarious ‘Crisis of Conscience’ book move) and this is equally painful to watch. Frankly, you look like a naughty schoolboy playing up to his classmates. The fact that you think it’s ever-so-daring to prank a GB member, says more about the power they hold over you than anything else.
If losing respect was the purpose of the exercise, you would have achieved top marks. The truth is that you made yourself look a bit silly, whilst Tony Morris remained completely unfazed by your comments and maintained a dignified stance. I’m not supporting him or the Society, it’s just my impression of the call (and clearly I’m not alone in this view).
If I was you, I’d stick to the mean-spirited, obsessive articles. They’re equally worthless, but at least it’s what you’re known for. Comedy just isn’t your bag. Quite honestly, this was pants.
Reply
 
 Cedars says:

 February 10, 2015 at 8:44 am

“If I was you, I’d stick to the mean-spirited, obsessive articles.”
Thanks for identifying yourself as a fan of Tony and Co. I wouldn’t expect someone in your position to have much of a sense of humor about prank-calling a spokesperson of the Almighty.
Reply
 
 

 anonymous says:

 February 10, 2015 at 8:35 am

@Tuxedo Joe. Just an observation on your comment. I don’t remember Cedar’s comment was meant to be put on Cedar’s most funny home videos. The goal was to just get through to a Governing Body member and tell that man an honest observation about his stupid tight pants comments and Cedars was surprised that he got through and he had his camera going to record it if he got through and he was surprised he even got through and it showed on his face. Big deal, the expression on his face.
You make the comment that you aren’t supporting the Society so are you on their side? Do you support the Society? If not, would you have the courage to confront them like Cedars did in a phone call and make an honest comment about how stupid their comments could be taken by the public or do you look at the Governing Body as “above” the rank and file and above making a disparaging comment to them as if they deserve more respect than the average rank and file member?
If you think these guys are “untouchable” you are giving them the impression that they are better than any other brother in the organization. We all are supposed to be able to take criticism aren’t we? Think about the Ministry School? If we all can take criticism, then they should be able to take it too. Nobody dares to do that to them? Why is that? Aren’t they supposed to be the “slave”? Or are they the “master” or are they the man behind the curtain like in the Wizard of Oz, just blowing a lot of hot air and pretending to be something they aren’t?
What did these guys ever do to deserve that kind of adulation and respect? At least with the Catholic Church when the Catholic Church elects a new Pope, the Cardinals all get together and they vote on a new Pope. Sometimes it takes several days. It’s not a set-up, where there’s just the the one Pope and he gets to select his next “successor” as he sees fit from his buddies and this next guy gets to rule over 800 million people who don’t have to answer to anybody about anything and the and file have to follow every stupid order they come up with or get kicked out with not a friend in the world left to them, or suck it up and pretend like it’s the “truth” when they know the new pope is a walking idiot.
These guys set themselves up in their little Kingdom and nobody even questions it. Why is that? The only difference is that instead of having just the one Pope like the Catholic Church, there’s seven “Popes” but they get to chose who their next Pope is going to be amongst their buddies. Nobody else has any say in the matter.
The Bible says that pride goes before the fall. That means that prideful people will be brought down by Jehovah. Are these people prideful? Jehovah hates prideful people. That is why Nebuchadnezzar ate grass like a bull for 7 years until he learned humility. A humble man won’t hang up when they are called on the carpet for making a stupid comment. A humble man would have asked why Cedars made that comment and learned from it.
I know if anybody called me on the phone and called me on the carpet for a comment that I made that they thought was stupid and deluded, I wouldn’t hang up on them. I would have tried to make it right. That is what Jesus said at Matthew 20:24-27 “When the ten others heard of this, they became indignant at the two brothers. But Jesus, calling them to him, said: “You know that the rulers of the nations lord it over them and the great men wield authority over them. This is not the way among you, but whoever wants to become great among you must be your minister, and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave.”
The Watchtower is clever in putting in the literature how we (rank and file) must be “obedient” to the “slave” but you must remember that in the July 2013 Study Watchtower, the Watchtower admitted that Jesus hasn’t “come” yet and won’t until the Great Tribulation and it’s then that Jesus will say “good and faithful slave” you have done a good job and now I will appoint you over all my belongings. The Great Tribulation hasn’t come yet and Jesus hasn’t pronounced the “slave” good and faithful yet so all they (Watchtower) are is a publishing company that spews out tons of literature who gets it’s rank and file to supply free labor in the guise of “saving’ people at Armageddon but it’s up to Jesus to say who is good and faithful. It isn’t up to them.
They deserve no respect from us because they put themselves in the place of Jesus in pronouncing themselves good and faithful. They mock the Bible. They deserve no respect. As a matter of fact, they put themselves in a very dangerous position with God if they actually do believe in God at all.
Reply
 

 Pickled brain says:

 February 10, 2015 at 8:39 am

@Tuxedo Joe. YOU ARE MEAN SPIRITED in YOUR COMMENTs about Cedars. How much money,Time & Energy HAVE YOU Expended in Exposing this FRAUDULENT ORGANISATION ???? Tuxedo Joe YOU SOUND LIKE A COWBOY !!!! Those of us who have LOST LOVED ONES because of Shunning& DISFELLOWSHIPPING because of disagreement on Doctrine which has CHANGED CONSTANTLY from when we Said YES to those Baptismal Questions … WE ALL APPRECIATE what CEDARS WEBSITE has Done in providing a Place where we can discuss HOW WE ALL FEEL !!! So TUXEDO JOE GO & CRAWL BACK INTO YOUR HOLE !!!
Reply
 

 Pickled brain says:

 February 10, 2015 at 8:46 am

@Anonymous .Thank you for Eloquently putting Tuxedo Joe Right about a Few Things…I am WORKING on Tactfulness at the MOment in the THEOCRATIC Ministry School & USE Of CAPITALS !! I keep Getting a ‘W’ from the Ministry School Overseer ! I CANNOT for the LIFE of Me WHY??? Then again I have only been working on it for 33 Years!!
Reply
 

 anonymous says:

 February 10, 2015 at 10:04 am

@Pickled brain, I feel sorry for people like Tuxedo Joe. You could tell them that Anthony Morris the 3rd likes to kill baby kittens and feed them to his pet snake back in his million dollar apartment and owns 10 Rolex watches and it wouldn’t sink into them, just what a perverted religion they belong to. They are to be pitied.
Reply
 

 Pickled brain says:

 February 10, 2015 at 10:19 am

@Anonymous . I AM SURE Anthony Morris EATS HAMSTERS for Breakfast & is the REINCARNATED POL POT of Cambodia who Slaughtered 2 Million people I know Anthony is POTTY because he thinks 7 BILLION Men ,WOMEN,CHILDREN & BABIES will be DESTROYED at ARMAGEDDON !
Reply
 

 anonymous says:

 February 10, 2015 at 10:41 am

@Pickled brain, like the God they worship, they are very much like Pol Pot. This is he kind of destruction that Jehovah’s Witnesses gleefully look forward to.
Psalms 137:9: “Happy will be that grabs ahold and does dash to pieces your children against the craig.” (This is what would happen to Babylon)
Jeremiah 13:14: “And I will dash them one against another, both the fathers and the sons, at the same time, is the utterance of Jehovah. “I shall show no compassion, nor feel any sorrow and I shall not have the mercy to keep from bringing them to ruin.”
Or how about Jeremiah 51:22,23: “And by you I will dash man and woman to pieces, and by you I will dash old man and boy to pieces, and by you I will dash young man and virgin to pieces and by you I will dash shepherd and his drove to pieces, and by you I will dash farmer and his span (of animals) to pieces, and by you I will dash governors and deputy rulers to pieces.”
Or how about Isaiah 13:15,16: “Every one that is found and every one that is caught in the sweep will fall by the sword; and their very children will be dashed to pieces before their eyes. Their houses will be pillaged, and their own wives will be raped.”
Or how about 2nd Kings 15:16: “Menahem proceeded to strike down Tiphsah and all that was in it and it’s territory out from Tirzah, because it did not open up, and he went striking it down. All it’s pregnant women he ripped up.”
Or how about Hosea 13:16: “Samaria will be held guilty, for she is actually rebellious against her God. Their own children will be dashed to pieces and their pregnant women themselves will be ripped up.”
Reply
 

 gameisover says:

 February 10, 2015 at 11:32 am

Please don’t compare the 7 dwarfs(in mind and heart)
 to the Pope. The Catholic church has a history of corruption
 at the top, although not always, but the middle and bottom
 are responsible for all the major missionary activities world
 wide since the beginning of Christianity, and to the present. No other group
 has done more for humankind, plus the preaching of the
 doctrine of Christ worldwide. It is apostolic. They put
 together the Bible canon and for over 1,500 years they
 were at it. Then came dissentions and inventions.
 And the biggest one is the Watchtower Society.
 And to think we believed all the poison they spud out
 against all other religions. It was the Chinese drop.
 It bore a hole through our brains and we just parroted
 everything they taught us, and the worse part is that we actually believed it! Today I am free to believe or not
 believe, but I think everyone should get their due for the
 good works they do.
 ,
Reply
 

 Pickled brain says:

 February 10, 2015 at 11:33 am

@Anonymous. Again Excellent Scriptural Analysis that SHOWS HOW CRUEL & VICIOUS & BARBARIC the JWs Version of ARMAGEDDON is!!!
Reply
 

 anonymous says:

 February 10, 2015 at 11:42 am

@Gameisover, when I was talking about the Pope being a walking idiot, I wasn’t talking about the Pope in the Catholic church. I was talking about one of our “popes”.
Reply
 

 Ted says:

 February 10, 2015 at 11:51 am

@Tuxedo Joe, most of us commenting here have apostatised from a
 degenerate, pseudo religious org. A death dealing, family destroying,
 Paedophile refuge, and many of us have been personally affected by
 these things.
I’d say it’s understandable that our expressed opinions, are much less
 than benevolent. If strong condemnation of injustice and hypocrisy
 is classed as bitterness, then Jesus was indeed a bitter person.
As for your own ad hominem attack, it contained plenty of nastiness
 and venom, and had little more purpose than that.
Reply
 

 anonymous says:

 February 10, 2015 at 1:44 pm

@Gameisover, but I did love your comment!
Reply
 

 Searcher says:

 February 10, 2015 at 5:54 pm

Hi Lloyd. That was great! If anything, the SOB sure as heck can’t take criticism or answer a critic with a proper argument or rebuttal. What the hang up proves is he lost an opportunity to try and set the record strait and defend his really indefensible positions on tight pants. This shows what a happens when he and other GB members (remember the court case subpoena?) do when faced with real criticism. They RUN like cowards with the tail between their legs instead of engage in defending their screwball positions.
Reply
 

 gary says:

 February 10, 2015 at 7:44 pm

As regards comments regarding the YR I do not advocate violence of any discription.
 If there is and whether or not there is a God I wouldn’t want to be that man.
Reply
 

 minion says:

 February 10, 2015 at 9:06 pm

Amazing,
Cedars video launched with over 3,000 views with in 24 hrs. 5 days later 7,694 views.
Will this reach 8.2 million or 19.6 million views?
Or 7.2 billion views?
We all need take to relax and laugh at ourselfs.
Brother Cedars, job well done!!
.
Reply
 

 Criticus says:

 February 11, 2015 at 4:09 pm

@gameisover:
Allow me to point out that your comment sports one of the most erroneous notions at large, which is:
“The RCC put together the Bible canon.”
Nothing can be more remote from the truth. The Tanakh – our “OT” with its 3 main sections Torah, Nevi’im and Ketuvim – was complete by 200 B.C. at the latest, bec. it was by then that the LXX-translators had completed rendering it in Greek, and which is also why Jesus and the NT-writers could quote from almost of the OT-books except a few, like Esther. Which doesn’t mean those other books weren’t part of the Tanakh, as all old codices etc. show. This was way before the RCC appeared on the horizon.
As to what we today call the NT: The Muratorian fragment from around 200 A.D. demonstrates that the entire NT-canon except some late books (2 Pet, James, Rev) was established by then; the few books not listed, or disputed, appear in all list of “approved” books shortly afterwards, which was long before there even existed any traces of the RCC which came into being only in connection with emperor Constantin during the 4th century A.D.
Hence: The RCC had nothing – ABSOLUTELY NOTHING !!! – to do with compiling the canon of our Bible.
What the RCC did, in contrast, besides stipulating the Latin Bible with all its translation errors plus unbiblical and later added apocryphic books as the only “usable” one, was persecuting & burning alive all those who dared to point out the RCCs errors and rottenness, as well as trying to move on as regards Bible translation and research, like Erasmus of Rotterdam and others, who needed to fear for their lives for the “crime” of making available the original (not Latin) Bible texts that way surpassed the Vulgate, but were not “approved” by the power-crazy clergy.
What the WTS does – just like the RCC did – is imposing a bad Bible translation (NWT) that is covering up, altering, or distorting the original sense of the message, like for example in their biased “exercising faith”, “from house to house”, “all other things” etc. misleading renderings, and imposing her church rules based on those warped scriptures as the “Only Truth”, and figuratively killing all those who dare to point out the WTS’ errors. So, yes, at least here we do agree: RCC & WTS – partners in crime indeed!
Greetings,
Criticus
Reply
 

 dontknowwheretogo says:

 February 12, 2015 at 10:41 am

I’ll try again.
I loved the prank call, I loved Cedars did and it actually worked…bear in mind I am out of the org.
It was “juvenile” or as Oubilette puts it “counter-productive” not in the sense that we that are out would see it but “juvenile” or “counter-productive” from the point of view of a still-in person who reads Cedars site.
Cedars site is one of very few sites that portray excellent info without any negative twist or apostate feel thus Cedars site is in a unique place where it can attract those who have a crisis with their faith and help them get mentally out.
It’s “juvenile” or “counter-productive” to these ones and thus counter-productive to the goal that Cedars has in helping people see the org for what it is.
For those of us that ARE out the prank call was brilliant…but if Cedars is serious in his goal in trying to help as many see the org for what it is then, in my opinion, he needs to curtail this type of thing…articles about AM3 or prank calls, whilst funny to us mentally out and actually reinforce our conviction that the org is crap actually deters those from looking to Cedars site as a site that they can trust.
I’ve tried in vain to make this point clear to Cedars…I have no beef with Lloyd and love his work, love his site and in fact helped me get out but I feel he will lose his credibility, not with me or any of us that are out, but with those who are on the fence.
It is those that we need to help the most…hence why I agree with Oubilette and why I have posted furiously why this was not a good idea.
I’ll repeat, I loved it, those who are out loved it…those who are still in and fighting mentally who may come out will be deterred to stay away from this site if this kind of posts continue.
And whilst I disagree with Cedars on this matter I still want to assure him of my respect for him, for what he has done and what he is doing.
All I ask is that you see past the negative comments and actually see what we are saying any WHY we are saying it. Because if you can you are on a winner here, your site can become the holy grail to all exjw’s in that we can refer jws to it safe in knowledge it won’t appear as an apostate site and it will help these ones get out.
Reply
 

 CovertSpiff says:

 February 12, 2015 at 11:47 am

Just another observation. I’ve seen a few comments suggesting that Lloyd somehow wasted this opportunity by making this into a prank call when he could have instead confronted Tony Morris Cubed with some of the issues. scandals or doctrinal flaws that many ex and serving JW’s are concerned about.
I think it’s pretty clear from this call that, had Lloyd attempted to begin a genuine discussion over issues of substance, that handset would have crashed into the cradle faster than Jehu in a chariot. Ironically, a prank call aimed at getting a laugh was probably the only way to get this “Faithful and Wise Man” to engage with his critics for anything more than 30 seconds. Which says a lot more about this “Faithful and Wise Man” than it does about his critics.
Reply
 

 anonymous says:

 February 12, 2015 at 1:07 pm

@dontknowwheretogo. My husband is a born-in and he wouldn’t go to this web site for anything in the world. He abhors Cedars and anything that even suggests it’s against he Society in any way. There is absolutely nothing I could say to him to make him even consider looking at any of these articles. I have told him and the elders in our congregation that I absolutely hate the Governing Body. I am not afraid to tell them that. I can guarantee you that these kind of people will not come onto a web site like this. People like that are obedient to the Society in never checking out anything like this site.
The only ones who will come here are the curious and damaged. These people already are not listening to what the Society is telling them, ie. staying away from sites like this. These people already don’t have the total respect for orders from the Governing Body. These people are open enough to disobey the Society so they already have lost total respect for them. I wouldn’t worry about people like that coming on here and seeing Cedar’s call. They wouldn’t be here anyway.
The ones that are coming here, need to see that the Governing Body members are demanding to be seen as anointed by Jesus and appointed by Jesus Christ as Faithful and Discreet when they have absolutely no evidence of such a thing.
Cedars didn’t make that phone call to make fun of Tony Morris. He did it to tell the Emperor that he has no clothes, which nobody else has the courage to do. What he did was courageous beyond courageous and he should be commended for what he did. These men aren’t super special and according to the Bible, they shouldn’t think of themselves like that either, that is if they actually are Christian, like they claim and nobody should be afraid of them to tell them that. Jesus would. Jesus would have thrown people like that out of the Temple with a whip.
These men make themselves demigods who demand unquestioning obedience and that puts 8 million Jehovah’s Witnesses in danger every day of their life because if any one of them should get into an accident or need an operation, they could lose their life because of that unquestioning obedience to this organization.
These men need to be taken down, both in stature and in obedience. This organization run by those men, cause nothing but pain and suffering and loss to all of it’s followers of being able to lead a happy and fulfilling life now and into the future. They need to be exposed for what they are, which is nothing but deluded self-appointed demigods, taking advantage of anyone that they can suck into their cult.
I don’t agree with your assessment of that phone call at all. He wasn’t trying to be funny. He didn’t do it to poke fun of Morris. What he did was courageous.
Reply
 

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The day I prank-called a Governing Body member
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Posted on February 7, 2015

Tony Morris - now slightly better acquainted with JWsurvey
Tony Morris – now on more personal terms with JWsurvey

On Wednesday evening something very rare and unexpected happened. I had a phone conversation with Anthony Morris III – a Governing Body member (and one of Advocate magazine’s Craziest Right-Wing Conspiracy Theorists of 2014).
As almost anyone outside of Watchtower headquarters will tell you – having a tete-a-tete with one seventh of the faithful and discreet slave is not something that happens every day.
But on this occasion, the odds were slightly more in my favor. I was armed with inside information from a reliable source who gave detailed instructions on how and when to get through.
Before the call I had tried a few times to get hold of various people in Watchtower HQ, with mixed success. The bethelite who screens PR spokesperson J.R. Brown’s calls did a masterful job of deflecting my request for a response on the Rama Singh misquote. I also had a nice chat with the bethelite responsible for the “Happy at Bethel” video, which will remain private because he was actually a really nice guy.
When it came time to try and get through to Tony, I had in mind that if I succeeded I would pretend to be someone else – at least for the first few moments of the phone call. Being open about my true identity from the beginning would almost certainly not result in a conversation of any significant length.
And so I concocted a humorous scenario in which I would be “Brother Cedars” – a newbie bethelite calling from the Brooklyn laundry room, and asking what should be done if tight pants or yoga pants are discovered among bethelite clothing. (If you don’t get the joke, click here.)
Tony was cordial, good-humored and polite, and took the call in good spirits. He quickly figured out that my cover story was a ruse, and after some light banter he set about trying to find out who I was. For the majority of our 2 minute, 20 second conversation he seemed under the impression that I was a high-spirited bethelite. Almost as soon as he realized I wasn’t an admirer, he put the receiver down.
Shortly after making this call I posted the obligatory video to YouTube, which clocked up 3,700 views in the first 24 hours. There was a huge reaction from viewers – the majority of which was positive. Many exJWs seem to have derived vicarious pleasure from hearing me tell a Governing Body member directly that I think he is deluded.


Some have questioned the wisdom of insulting Tony when, having come so far in getting through to him, a conversation seemed on the cards. But from the moment he discovered I wasn’t a bethelite, I knew I was on borrowed time. And I wanted any conversation with him to be on a frank and honest footing. Calling him deluded was NOT an invitation on my part for him to end the call – I was more than willing for him to challenge me on why I said that.
Others have suggested I should have kept my “bethelite” rouse going for longer so that I could elicit more information. However, that scale of deception is not in my nature. My aim from the beginning was to get my foot through the door and then be open with who I was as quickly as possible.
If, once the inevitable barrage of questions about my identity came, I had added yet more layers to my subterfuge, the accusations that I was living up to the lying, deceptive apostate stereotype would have been inevitable and deserved.
Still others have said I was “juvenile” and that my prank call represents a “wasted opportunity” to confront a Governing Body member with tough, meaningful questions on serious issues. Well, I make no secret that I have a juvenile streak in me, and I actually think humor is one of the most effective weapons against cults. If there is one thing cults hate, it is to be laughed at.
And I invite anyone under similar circumstances to see how many probing questions on shunning, child abuse or blood transfusions a Governing Body member will listen to before taking the easy way out.
I am not saying for a moment that my phonecall couldn’t have gone better. I am my own worst critic over this sort of thing, and can conceive of any number of ways I could have made more of the opportunity. Hindsight, after all, is a marvelous thing. But I can also easily envision the phonecall going much worse, and ending far more abruptly.
tightpantsTony
Despite drawing the ire of a few armchair activists, I feel my phone call was quite productive. It showed any JWs (or still-indoctrinated exJWs) who listen to it that a Governing Body member will readily be flippant about ‘bible counsel’ he expects ordinary JWs to treat with deadly seriousness.
You can imagine how a devout sister who has not long since thrown out all her yoga pants and husband’s tight trousers would feel listening to this conversation. For those on a tight budget who actually have to pay for their own clothes, these petty, capricious injunctions are no laughing matter.
But perhaps more importantly, my phone conversation with Tony reveals his unvarnished human side. He is not some saintly, mystical guru with a hotline to heaven, but a fairly ordinary old man who just so happens to be a spiritual overlord to 8 million doting followers.
Well, I say 8 million. Tony will have left this conversation under no illusions that not even everyone under the rooftops of Brooklyn bethel truly believe him to be anything special. And if he hadn’t figured that out before this incident, he certainly should have. You cannot claim the unquestioned, uniform loyalty of a group of people who you are threatening with cruel, immoral punishment if they dare to walk away.
As to whether there will be any more conversations with Governing Body members – I am sure this will be more problematic in the wake of my intrusion. But that needn’t stop me from trying.

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Many thanks to Vincent Deporter for supplying artwork for this article!
For an Italian translation of the conversation, please click here.


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106 Responses to The day I prank-called a Governing Body member

← Older Comments

 Grace says:

 February 12, 2015 at 1:41 pm

Amen Anonymous,
When I first came here I was already mentally prepared to walk out the door with no turning back. I had left once before but never went to ‘apostate’ sites or read or talked to ‘negative’ people. I wasn’t ready then. When I came here, I had truly had enough. This site has helped me to come to terms with my feelings about why things didn’t sit right with me for so long & why I disliked this religion so much & always have. I kept coming back here to read the articles but what also helped was the humour with it to get me over the emotional hurdles as well. Once you see how silly & fanciful it all is it empowers you to move forward.
Reply
 

 dontknowwheretogo says:

 February 12, 2015 at 3:34 pm

@Anonymous
I hear what you are saying but I disagree only because I speak from personal experience.
I would not go near any apostate site when I was in but due to the nature of Cedars site I felt ok reading it and that was before I was mentally out or even questioning the GB.
Others I have come to know through various forums have had the same experience.
So whilst there may be some who will not come near this site the fact is some do when they are still in and if we capture them and Cedars manages to help them break free then what a power sites like these can become.
Still-ins will avoid plainly obvious apostate sites but if you can convey the fact that the GB are just men but do so in a way that makes still-ins think then surely that is worth it rather than posting blog posts about prank calls.
That is my point and that is why I think it is best Cedars avoids anything like what he did, not because it was bad, poor, stupid etc but because I see that Cedars could have an audience that is the hardest to reach…those still-in.
Reply
 

 StrongHaiku says:

 February 12, 2015 at 4:34 pm

Growing up in Puerto Rico, all kids are taught the following story:
In Puerto Rico on 1511, the chief of the Tainos, Agüeybaná II had his doubts that the Spaniards that had landed on the island were “Gods”. He came up with a plan to lure a Spaniard by the name of Diego Salcedo into a river and drown him. They watched over Salcedo’s body to make sure that he would not come back to life (like Christ). Salcedo’s death was enough to convince him and the rest of the Taíno people that the Spaniards were not gods.
All in all, I think Tony Morris got off light…
Reply
 

 anonymous says:

 February 12, 2015 at 7:03 pm

@dontknowwheretogo. Cedars wasn’t doing that phone call as a “prank” (practical joke) or to make fun of Anthony Morris the 3rd even though that is the name he gave the posting.
According to Websters, a prank is a practical joke. No matter how you look at it, telling Anthony Morris the 3rd that he is deluded could hardly be called a practical joke. I don’t think Anthony Morris the 3rd took it as a practical joke at all. A practical joke is putting a whoopee cushion under a person’s butt and making a farting noise so people laugh at the victim or scaring a person.
What you consider a joke, I call bravery. I’d give anything to say that had been me that had gotten the opportunity to tell Anthony Morris the 3rd that he’s delusional. Like StrongHaiku said, he got off easy. That would be the best day of my life, if I could add that accomplishment to my resume’. I would be proud of myself for the rest of my life if I could have done that.
A person would have to be a moron to not realize that this is a “apostate” web site. When Cedars started it, he wasn’t disassociated or disfellowshipped yet but of course, it’s pretty hard to miss that fact now.
Cedars could have made that phone call and not recorded it and none of us would have been privy to what happened. I for one am very glad that he decided to share it with us.
Reply
 

 FEELINGSICKTOMYSTOMACH says:

 February 13, 2015 at 6:43 am

I quite honestly can’t believe how upset some are. Why are you so concerned. Calling Lloyd juvenile is a bit much. He is not your local MP or in any position where you have to support him. You haven’t voted in him and now he is letting you down. You are simply reading and watching stuff he has produced. But you don’t have to. After all It’s just Lloyd, doing Lloyd stuff. Try supporting him in the things you agree with, and if you don’t, just say so, there is no need to be rude about it.
Personally I giggle right through it, Lloyds mischievous look at the camera was the hi light. But the end was brilliant, well done Lloyd.
Reply
 

 Big Jim says:

 February 18, 2015 at 3:07 pm

I love all of this bantering. But all the complainers are missing out on the wonderful opportunity of showing everyone in the entire world that they have made changes in their lives for the better. They were part of a religious organization, then left it. Great. They have arrived. Now, I am curious as to what they call their new religion. Do they have one? Or did they just quit and sit back on the couch and complain. All right. They got hooked up with the wrong people, according to their complaints. Now do something about it. They joined up because they thought this organization had what they were looking for. Then they decided it did not. Well….duh….start their own church and show ‘em what’s up. Two mistakes do not make a right. You made a mistake. Now correct it. Start your own church and announce to the world that you now have all the answers. Just think how the world of mankind can learn from your mistakes. What? You mean you only gave it one chance? C’mon, people, get some backbone. Pull your bootstraps up and move on and set an example. Don’t grab a Diet Coke and a bag of chips and sit back and watch the tube. No intelligence there. TV appeals to the intellect of 12 year olds. Again, please post the name of your new religion so we all can pick it apart and make a phone call to you to see if you are true blue. Hey, nobody said being a Christian is easy.
Reply
 

 Grace says:

 February 18, 2015 at 4:22 pm

Big Jim, stop being a narrow minded individual. Why does religion have to be the centre of a persons existence. No one is going to force a religion down your throat because you already have one to do that. Think for yourself, you don’t need someone else to do that for you.
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 February 20, 2015 at 10:58 pm

Thank you, Cedars, for that HILARIOUS prank call to Tony Morris. Very entertaining. I love how you messed with his head by saying that his sermons are driving AWAY Witnesses! Maybe he’ll start giving talks on the benefits of wearing tight pants. LOL
Reply
 

 anonymous says:

 February 22, 2015 at 11:07 am

Big Jim, why do you think we have belong to a religion in the first place???
Reply
 

 Gameisover says:

 February 23, 2015 at 6:55 am

Big Jim, you have a great sense of humor and I applaud that. The truth of the matter is that the vast majority who leave JW’s become atheist or agnostics. And why do you suppose is that? I suspect it is because they are burnt up.
 In the name of God they’ve been abused psychologically,browbeaten, they’ve been denied even the most basic pleasures in life from their babyhood. Happy moments such as singing Christmas carols in the neighborhood with other kids, going trick or treating, playing baseball in their
 school team, having their birthday party with friends and family, while at the same time their life being in constant danger of dying in case they needed a transfusion. Let’s not talk about dating, college etc. well, Big Jim,you know this. The list of “can’t do” is infinite. Then there is the
 doctrinal brainwashing which leaves one drained. How many people, under those circumstances, have the will or even the energy to look for something else?
 They are too busy grieving because they’ve lost all their
 friends, their parents, their children. Who has time to look around?
 Well, 30% eventually do. And they find a happiness that
 Is foreign to them, that cannot be described with words.
 I suspect you are not very happy. Just a hunch.
 I really wish the best for you.
Reply
 

 Dblaron42 (formerly stuck with a jdub) says:

 February 23, 2015 at 8:56 am

@Big Jim-
 Is that the best that you have? Many of the people on here have lost something. Be it family, friends, material items, their god or perhaps they have lost all of the above. What makes you think that after losing everything to something called ” the truth” they will run to another religion? Or, as you suggest start their own. These are people who have been hurt and are still in pain. Your post illustrated the heartless nature of jdubs and quite frankly the complete lack of true love that exists within the borg. Expressing Conditional love is just about the worst thing that one could do to a child.
DblA
Reply
 
 Wee one says:

 March 8, 2015 at 12:17 pm

The point big Jim is making is that’s it is easier to criticise someone else’s answer than to come up with an answer of your own. It is better to lead by example than to tear down. These are basic human qualities, no?
Reply
 
 

 Bestium says:

 April 12, 2015 at 12:32 am

Dear Lloyd,
 Today is the branch visit of Anthony Morris to Ukraine. He is in Ukraine’s Bethel now and they are broadcasting his speech all over Ukraine. But the most outrageous and offending for me is why I cant listen to this broadcast when I am ill at home? What is so special about that speech that they annouced that it is forbidden to broadcast via phone? I am ill and I cant come and if it were ordinary meeting thay would broadcast it for me via phone but this is different. Why?And the elder that I called to ask for broadcast just closed phone and that is all. Is it normal? I had to call to mom ( she is in different city on the meeting) to listen. Anthony is talking about “blessings” to all brothers and sisters in Ukraine and encouragement for them during meeting. What encouragement can I get if that elder closed phone?Hypocrites. This attitude gives me no desire to come to meetings at all.
Reply
 
 Bestium says:

 April 12, 2015 at 12:56 am

I heard Anthony’s voice and after that another brother’s( didnt hear his name). That brother makes branch visit as I understood. I wish connection be better.
Reply
 
 

 tiger123 says:

 April 28, 2015 at 1:07 am

The best part of the phone call was Tony trying to figure out who had called him. That caused a ***t storm at the switchboard. Bethelites are not to call the GB with such frivolous matters. He was trying to draw a bead on who had called him so he could send you out of Bethel ASAP.
On the brighter side of things, it was a great laugh for me to hear him hang up on you because you set him up with being a fan of his! LOL After he hung up on you, I could not help but laugh, knowing how he rarely listens to any dissenting opinions.
Reply
 

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The day I prank-called a Governing Body member
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Posted on February 7, 2015

Tony Morris - now slightly better acquainted with JWsurvey
Tony Morris – now on more personal terms with JWsurvey

On Wednesday evening something very rare and unexpected happened. I had a phone conversation with Anthony Morris III – a Governing Body member (and one of Advocate magazine’s Craziest Right-Wing Conspiracy Theorists of 2014).
As almost anyone outside of Watchtower headquarters will tell you – having a tete-a-tete with one seventh of the faithful and discreet slave is not something that happens every day.
But on this occasion, the odds were slightly more in my favor. I was armed with inside information from a reliable source who gave detailed instructions on how and when to get through.
Before the call I had tried a few times to get hold of various people in Watchtower HQ, with mixed success. The bethelite who screens PR spokesperson J.R. Brown’s calls did a masterful job of deflecting my request for a response on the Rama Singh misquote. I also had a nice chat with the bethelite responsible for the “Happy at Bethel” video, which will remain private because he was actually a really nice guy.
When it came time to try and get through to Tony, I had in mind that if I succeeded I would pretend to be someone else – at least for the first few moments of the phone call. Being open about my true identity from the beginning would almost certainly not result in a conversation of any significant length.
And so I concocted a humorous scenario in which I would be “Brother Cedars” – a newbie bethelite calling from the Brooklyn laundry room, and asking what should be done if tight pants or yoga pants are discovered among bethelite clothing. (If you don’t get the joke, click here.)
Tony was cordial, good-humored and polite, and took the call in good spirits. He quickly figured out that my cover story was a ruse, and after some light banter he set about trying to find out who I was. For the majority of our 2 minute, 20 second conversation he seemed under the impression that I was a high-spirited bethelite. Almost as soon as he realized I wasn’t an admirer, he put the receiver down.
Shortly after making this call I posted the obligatory video to YouTube, which clocked up 3,700 views in the first 24 hours. There was a huge reaction from viewers – the majority of which was positive. Many exJWs seem to have derived vicarious pleasure from hearing me tell a Governing Body member directly that I think he is deluded.


Some have questioned the wisdom of insulting Tony when, having come so far in getting through to him, a conversation seemed on the cards. But from the moment he discovered I wasn’t a bethelite, I knew I was on borrowed time. And I wanted any conversation with him to be on a frank and honest footing. Calling him deluded was NOT an invitation on my part for him to end the call – I was more than willing for him to challenge me on why I said that.
Others have suggested I should have kept my “bethelite” rouse going for longer so that I could elicit more information. However, that scale of deception is not in my nature. My aim from the beginning was to get my foot through the door and then be open with who I was as quickly as possible.
If, once the inevitable barrage of questions about my identity came, I had added yet more layers to my subterfuge, the accusations that I was living up to the lying, deceptive apostate stereotype would have been inevitable and deserved.
Still others have said I was “juvenile” and that my prank call represents a “wasted opportunity” to confront a Governing Body member with tough, meaningful questions on serious issues. Well, I make no secret that I have a juvenile streak in me, and I actually think humor is one of the most effective weapons against cults. If there is one thing cults hate, it is to be laughed at.
And I invite anyone under similar circumstances to see how many probing questions on shunning, child abuse or blood transfusions a Governing Body member will listen to before taking the easy way out.
I am not saying for a moment that my phonecall couldn’t have gone better. I am my own worst critic over this sort of thing, and can conceive of any number of ways I could have made more of the opportunity. Hindsight, after all, is a marvelous thing. But I can also easily envision the phonecall going much worse, and ending far more abruptly.
tightpantsTony
Despite drawing the ire of a few armchair activists, I feel my phone call was quite productive. It showed any JWs (or still-indoctrinated exJWs) who listen to it that a Governing Body member will readily be flippant about ‘bible counsel’ he expects ordinary JWs to treat with deadly seriousness.
You can imagine how a devout sister who has not long since thrown out all her yoga pants and husband’s tight trousers would feel listening to this conversation. For those on a tight budget who actually have to pay for their own clothes, these petty, capricious injunctions are no laughing matter.
But perhaps more importantly, my phone conversation with Tony reveals his unvarnished human side. He is not some saintly, mystical guru with a hotline to heaven, but a fairly ordinary old man who just so happens to be a spiritual overlord to 8 million doting followers.
Well, I say 8 million. Tony will have left this conversation under no illusions that not even everyone under the rooftops of Brooklyn bethel truly believe him to be anything special. And if he hadn’t figured that out before this incident, he certainly should have. You cannot claim the unquestioned, uniform loyalty of a group of people who you are threatening with cruel, immoral punishment if they dare to walk away.
As to whether there will be any more conversations with Governing Body members – I am sure this will be more problematic in the wake of my intrusion. But that needn’t stop me from trying.

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Many thanks to Vincent Deporter for supplying artwork for this article!
For an Italian translation of the conversation, please click here.


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106 Responses to The day I prank-called a Governing Body member

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 Grace says:

 February 12, 2015 at 1:41 pm

Amen Anonymous,
When I first came here I was already mentally prepared to walk out the door with no turning back. I had left once before but never went to ‘apostate’ sites or read or talked to ‘negative’ people. I wasn’t ready then. When I came here, I had truly had enough. This site has helped me to come to terms with my feelings about why things didn’t sit right with me for so long & why I disliked this religion so much & always have. I kept coming back here to read the articles but what also helped was the humour with it to get me over the emotional hurdles as well. Once you see how silly & fanciful it all is it empowers you to move forward.
Reply
 

 dontknowwheretogo says:

 February 12, 2015 at 3:34 pm

@Anonymous
I hear what you are saying but I disagree only because I speak from personal experience.
I would not go near any apostate site when I was in but due to the nature of Cedars site I felt ok reading it and that was before I was mentally out or even questioning the GB.
Others I have come to know through various forums have had the same experience.
So whilst there may be some who will not come near this site the fact is some do when they are still in and if we capture them and Cedars manages to help them break free then what a power sites like these can become.
Still-ins will avoid plainly obvious apostate sites but if you can convey the fact that the GB are just men but do so in a way that makes still-ins think then surely that is worth it rather than posting blog posts about prank calls.
That is my point and that is why I think it is best Cedars avoids anything like what he did, not because it was bad, poor, stupid etc but because I see that Cedars could have an audience that is the hardest to reach…those still-in.
Reply
 

 StrongHaiku says:

 February 12, 2015 at 4:34 pm

Growing up in Puerto Rico, all kids are taught the following story:
In Puerto Rico on 1511, the chief of the Tainos, Agüeybaná II had his doubts that the Spaniards that had landed on the island were “Gods”. He came up with a plan to lure a Spaniard by the name of Diego Salcedo into a river and drown him. They watched over Salcedo’s body to make sure that he would not come back to life (like Christ). Salcedo’s death was enough to convince him and the rest of the Taíno people that the Spaniards were not gods.
All in all, I think Tony Morris got off light…
Reply
 

 anonymous says:

 February 12, 2015 at 7:03 pm

@dontknowwheretogo. Cedars wasn’t doing that phone call as a “prank” (practical joke) or to make fun of Anthony Morris the 3rd even though that is the name he gave the posting.
According to Websters, a prank is a practical joke. No matter how you look at it, telling Anthony Morris the 3rd that he is deluded could hardly be called a practical joke. I don’t think Anthony Morris the 3rd took it as a practical joke at all. A practical joke is putting a whoopee cushion under a person’s butt and making a farting noise so people laugh at the victim or scaring a person.
What you consider a joke, I call bravery. I’d give anything to say that had been me that had gotten the opportunity to tell Anthony Morris the 3rd that he’s delusional. Like StrongHaiku said, he got off easy. That would be the best day of my life, if I could add that accomplishment to my resume’. I would be proud of myself for the rest of my life if I could have done that.
A person would have to be a moron to not realize that this is a “apostate” web site. When Cedars started it, he wasn’t disassociated or disfellowshipped yet but of course, it’s pretty hard to miss that fact now.
Cedars could have made that phone call and not recorded it and none of us would have been privy to what happened. I for one am very glad that he decided to share it with us.
Reply
 

 FEELINGSICKTOMYSTOMACH says:

 February 13, 2015 at 6:43 am

I quite honestly can’t believe how upset some are. Why are you so concerned. Calling Lloyd juvenile is a bit much. He is not your local MP or in any position where you have to support him. You haven’t voted in him and now he is letting you down. You are simply reading and watching stuff he has produced. But you don’t have to. After all It’s just Lloyd, doing Lloyd stuff. Try supporting him in the things you agree with, and if you don’t, just say so, there is no need to be rude about it.
Personally I giggle right through it, Lloyds mischievous look at the camera was the hi light. But the end was brilliant, well done Lloyd.
Reply
 

 Big Jim says:

 February 18, 2015 at 3:07 pm

I love all of this bantering. But all the complainers are missing out on the wonderful opportunity of showing everyone in the entire world that they have made changes in their lives for the better. They were part of a religious organization, then left it. Great. They have arrived. Now, I am curious as to what they call their new religion. Do they have one? Or did they just quit and sit back on the couch and complain. All right. They got hooked up with the wrong people, according to their complaints. Now do something about it. They joined up because they thought this organization had what they were looking for. Then they decided it did not. Well….duh….start their own church and show ‘em what’s up. Two mistakes do not make a right. You made a mistake. Now correct it. Start your own church and announce to the world that you now have all the answers. Just think how the world of mankind can learn from your mistakes. What? You mean you only gave it one chance? C’mon, people, get some backbone. Pull your bootstraps up and move on and set an example. Don’t grab a Diet Coke and a bag of chips and sit back and watch the tube. No intelligence there. TV appeals to the intellect of 12 year olds. Again, please post the name of your new religion so we all can pick it apart and make a phone call to you to see if you are true blue. Hey, nobody said being a Christian is easy.
Reply
 

 Grace says:

 February 18, 2015 at 4:22 pm

Big Jim, stop being a narrow minded individual. Why does religion have to be the centre of a persons existence. No one is going to force a religion down your throat because you already have one to do that. Think for yourself, you don’t need someone else to do that for you.
Reply
 

 Neal Krouni says:

 February 20, 2015 at 10:58 pm

Thank you, Cedars, for that HILARIOUS prank call to Tony Morris. Very entertaining. I love how you messed with his head by saying that his sermons are driving AWAY Witnesses! Maybe he’ll start giving talks on the benefits of wearing tight pants. LOL
Reply
 

 anonymous says:

 February 22, 2015 at 11:07 am

Big Jim, why do you think we have belong to a religion in the first place???
Reply
 

 Gameisover says:

 February 23, 2015 at 6:55 am

Big Jim, you have a great sense of humor and I applaud that. The truth of the matter is that the vast majority who leave JW’s become atheist or agnostics. And why do you suppose is that? I suspect it is because they are burnt up.
 In the name of God they’ve been abused psychologically,browbeaten, they’ve been denied even the most basic pleasures in life from their babyhood. Happy moments such as singing Christmas carols in the neighborhood with other kids, going trick or treating, playing baseball in their
 school team, having their birthday party with friends and family, while at the same time their life being in constant danger of dying in case they needed a transfusion. Let’s not talk about dating, college etc. well, Big Jim,you know this. The list of “can’t do” is infinite. Then there is the
 doctrinal brainwashing which leaves one drained. How many people, under those circumstances, have the will or even the energy to look for something else?
 They are too busy grieving because they’ve lost all their
 friends, their parents, their children. Who has time to look around?
 Well, 30% eventually do. And they find a happiness that
 Is foreign to them, that cannot be described with words.
 I suspect you are not very happy. Just a hunch.
 I really wish the best for you.
Reply
 

 Dblaron42 (formerly stuck with a jdub) says:

 February 23, 2015 at 8:56 am

@Big Jim-
 Is that the best that you have? Many of the people on here have lost something. Be it family, friends, material items, their god or perhaps they have lost all of the above. What makes you think that after losing everything to something called ” the truth” they will run to another religion? Or, as you suggest start their own. These are people who have been hurt and are still in pain. Your post illustrated the heartless nature of jdubs and quite frankly the complete lack of true love that exists within the borg. Expressing Conditional love is just about the worst thing that one could do to a child.
DblA
Reply
 
 Wee one says:

 March 8, 2015 at 12:17 pm

The point big Jim is making is that’s it is easier to criticise someone else’s answer than to come up with an answer of your own. It is better to lead by example than to tear down. These are basic human qualities, no?
Reply
 
 

 Bestium says:

 April 12, 2015 at 12:32 am

Dear Lloyd,
 Today is the branch visit of Anthony Morris to Ukraine. He is in Ukraine’s Bethel now and they are broadcasting his speech all over Ukraine. But the most outrageous and offending for me is why I cant listen to this broadcast when I am ill at home? What is so special about that speech that they annouced that it is forbidden to broadcast via phone? I am ill and I cant come and if it were ordinary meeting thay would broadcast it for me via phone but this is different. Why?And the elder that I called to ask for broadcast just closed phone and that is all. Is it normal? I had to call to mom ( she is in different city on the meeting) to listen. Anthony is talking about “blessings” to all brothers and sisters in Ukraine and encouragement for them during meeting. What encouragement can I get if that elder closed phone?Hypocrites. This attitude gives me no desire to come to meetings at all.
Reply
 
 Bestium says:

 April 12, 2015 at 12:56 am

I heard Anthony’s voice and after that another brother’s( didnt hear his name). That brother makes branch visit as I understood. I wish connection be better.
Reply
 
 

 tiger123 says:

 April 28, 2015 at 1:07 am

The best part of the phone call was Tony trying to figure out who had called him. That caused a ***t storm at the switchboard. Bethelites are not to call the GB with such frivolous matters. He was trying to draw a bead on who had called him so he could send you out of Bethel ASAP.
On the brighter side of things, it was a great laugh for me to hear him hang up on you because you set him up with being a fan of his! LOL After he hung up on you, I could not help but laugh, knowing how he rarely listens to any dissenting opinions.
Reply
 

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“Pay attention or die!” – A disturbing glimpse of JW child indoctrination at work
avatar
Posted on February 13, 2015

The latest JW child indoctrination cartoon carries a threatening message
The latest JW child indoctrination cartoon carries a threatening message

Anyone who was raised as a Jehovah’s Witness can empathize with the scenario of two children struggling to hold their attention at a kingdom hall meeting. And this is exactly the predicament in which Watchtower’s model cartoon children, Caleb and Sophia, find themselves in the latest “Become Jehovah’s Friend” episode – released earlier this month.
So what does the Governing Body want to say to any children who find themselves bored or distracted at a meeting they have been dragged to by their indoctrinated parents? It’s simple, really: “Pay attention, or die.” That grim message comes across loud and clear in the latest installment of Watchtower’s child propaganda series.
In the newly-released “Lesson 15,” entitled “Pay Attention at the Meetings,” young Caleb and Sophia find themselves reprimanded for playing with a toy car (Caleb) and falling asleep (Sophia) by their parents.


In a subsequent discussion around the dinner table, the children’s parents discuss the serious ramifications of failing to pay attention during a meeting. “Imagine if Noah didn’t pay attention when Jehovah explained how to build the ark?” muses Caleb’s father.
A cartoon segment then shows Noah and his family idling around during God’s instructions for building a vessel that the laws of physics say could never have been seaworthy to avoid a global deluge that archeology, geology and biology testify never happened. (If you find anything I’ve said in this paragraph offensive, please watch this video.)
The result? Noah and his family are shown scurrying into the finished ark when the flood is imminent, only for it to comically collapse under the weight of the first drop of water. The whole family is then shown disappearing under the flood waters with startled looks on their faces.
“That’s not what happened, dad!” protests Caleb. “You are right,” says his dad. “He paid attention, and it saved his life. Paying attention at the meetings can help save YOUR life!”
After this not-so-veiled threat, Caleb and Sophia are shown at the next meeting paying rapt attention, apparently buoyed by the knowledge that failure to do so will result in them being slaughtered.
Child indoctrination: increasingly the only way to turn someone into a Jehovah's Witness
Child indoctrination: increasingly the only way to turn someone into a Jehovah’s Witness

I personally found this video even more hideous than the notorious Sparlock episode – one of the first “lessons” in this ghastly series. Why?
At least in the Sparlock episode the threats made against Caleb by his mother for playing with a wizard toy were slightly more opaque. If he didn’t throw his toy away, Caleb would make Jehovah “sad” and grow old and shriveled like Adam and Eve. But in this latest video, the threats made against Caleb and his sister to coerce them into conformity are all too dire and explicit.
How any parent can watch this video and find threats of death at the hands of the Almighty an appropriate, healthy tool for shaping the attitudes and behavior of their children is beyond me.
I am reminded of the words of Richard Dawkins: “There is no such thing as a Christian child: only a child of Christian parents.” Children are not born religious – they need to have it pummeled into them by parents who were very likely themselves instilled with a specific religion dependent on their own parents or culture.
In the case of Witness children, the modus operandi for indoctrination is not merely gentle persuasion and cheerful recommendations but outright threats and blackmail – all endorsed and prescribed by the Governing Body themselves.
The one useful element of this video is that it openly exposes to any non-JW onlooker what the Witness religion is really all about: “Follow us or die.”
I have only recently made a video on this very subject, as it is my hope that more people will be mindful of the true, grisly nature of the Witness message when they are set upon with enchanting images of paradise, pandas and fruit baskets.
Grab a shovel and start exploring this imaginary utopia recommended to you in Watchtower literature, and you will soon discover that these rolling hillsides, bounteous pastures and idyllic homes have been built on the bodies of billions of people who have been massacred for the crime of not wanting to be Jehovah’s Witnesses. Sparing the next generation from having their lives molded by such a grotesque vision of the future is not merely advisable – it is an obligation.

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Further reading…
◾NYDailyNews article
◾Freethinker article
◾Friendly Atheist article
◾Rawstory article
◾JWvictims article
◾Watchtower’s new “Toy Story” – What parents need to know
◾Why it is morally wrong for Watchtower to push baptism on children
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105 Responses to “Pay attention or die!” – A disturbing glimpse of JW child indoctrination at work

← Older Comments

 Excelsior! says:

 February 18, 2015 at 6:31 am

Cuthbert,
I am still patiently waiting for your response to my dilemma.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 

 Kurt says:

 February 18, 2015 at 10:52 pm

We already know that Caleb’s mom is a manipulative skunt of the worst sort, and can see that his dad is a dull witted schmuck. What amazes me is how unselfconscious these people are who produce these videos, as if they have no idea of how outrageous they would appear to someone of good conscience.
Reply
 

 Sam says:

 February 19, 2015 at 6:15 am

So the wages of not paying attention are death?
Bit harsh isn’t it? Come to that why does an all powerful almighty God, ruler of the universe, divine creator etc etc give two hoots if a child is paying attention or not?
Reply
 

 disillusioned says:

 February 22, 2015 at 1:29 pm

We all used to let our children fall asleep in meetings and were glad that we did so that we got some peace. How can you force a child to stay awake especially at the evening meeting. I remember a brother on the platform saying that even if our children fell asleep the information was still going in. I and many other adults at assemblies used to fall asleep. (They seemed to have that effect, sending people to sleep.) So how can you keep children awake? By pinching them? That mother is harsh.
Reply
 
 Olive says:

 March 14, 2015 at 7:51 pm

When I watched this, I just felt so bad for Sophia in particular. I mean, the kid is eight years old, and it’s close to nine on a school night, and they’re shocked that she fell asleep at the meeting?
What’s the next video going to be? Telling her about the glory of suffering for Jehovah while she counts blisters from walking two miles in dress shoes?
Reply
 
 MyBirthRight says:

 March 15, 2015 at 7:20 am

They would probably pull something like that.
I feel so hurt for the few children who have parents that will take it even further now that there is JW broadcast, and only allow their children to watch anything beside JW broadcast material even for leisure. I heard 2 people hint before there may be no more Sesame Street for their kids now that they have these, it’s very saddening!
Reply
 
 
 

 StrongHaiku says:

 February 24, 2015 at 1:54 pm

Wow! After watching this a couple of times I wondered if the kids are being toilet-trained at gun point. Of what good use is it to be obedient out of fear? Shouldn’t love be the primary motivation? I don’t get it.
Reply
 

 MyBirthRight says:

 March 5, 2015 at 8:56 am

Yes, those are the looks of car ride anxiety attack because they know they’re on their way to a monumental *** whooping or indoctrination guilt trip speech after the meeting.
I’m surprised they showed poor Caleb being allowed to draw during that meeting, as there was always constant cruelty advising parent’s to not allow their kids to draw. Some parents that were more compassionate were looked down upon as not setting an example if their children drew pictures, chatted or played with toys or books, guess the head didn’t have his household in order. And if you were parent who even gave your kids christian themed coloring pages you were looked at as darn near apostate since it wasn’t the My Book of Bible B.S.
This “keep your kids woke” at the hall is nothing new, they are just amping it up now by targeting kids with threats outright. It used to be the story droned in children many years back about the young boy in the bible who fell out of the window by falling asleep during “Paul’s” talk but was supposedly “revived” by Paul in the story, but now the sinister message flat is out pain of unmourned death for falling asleep! I remember attendants being told at 2 diff circuit assemblies in the late 80’s to wake people up they noticed had fallen asleep. What’s next, cartoon of Sophia and Caleb being professionally treated at their teacher’s request after being groomed of course by the parent’s on just what they are allowed to divulge to the doctors, for insomnia and other social/mental disorders because they became afraid to ever fall asleep at all because of fiery Armageddon literature art inspired nightmares and threat of parental abandonment. As well as Sophia’s depression from not being allowed to have friends at school as we witnessed in the Pray Anytime video filled with all kinds of other evidence of how threatening this cult really is.
Reply
 

 MyBirthRight says:

 March 5, 2015 at 11:33 am

Yup, looks like “car ride anxiety attack” on their faces, ‘cuz they know they are on their way to a monumental butt whooping or fear filled guilt trip speech. I’m surprised they showed poor Caleb being allowed to draw during that meeting, as there was always constant cruelty advising parents to not allow kids to draw during meetings. Some parents were looked down upon as not setting an example if their children drew pictures, chatted or played with toys or books. Even parents that gave their kids “christian themed” coloring pages or books you were looked at as darn near apostate since it wasn’t the My Book of Bible B.S.
Back in the day, they droned in children the story about the young boy who fell out of the window because he fell asleep during “Paul’s” talk but was at least “revived” at the end of the story, now the message is pain of unmourned death for falling asleep! I remember attendants being told at a 2 diff circuit assemblies in the late 80’s to wake anyone up they noticed had fallen asleep. What’s next, a cartoon of Sophia and Caleb being treated for insomnia and other social disorders at the teacher’s request of course but only after they’ve been groomed by the parent’s on what to say, because they’ve grown afraid to sleep at all because of fiery Armageddon literature art inspired nightmares or after watching this video. Might as well treat Sophia for the friends issues while they are at it as a result of her thinking she has to alienate herself from other schoolchildren on the bus in that Pray Anytime video.
Reply
 
 Charles Costante says:

 March 6, 2015 at 8:22 pm

“since it wasn’t the My Book of Bible B.S.”
I’m sure the B.S. stands for Bible Study, MyBirthRight, but I can’t understand why you’ve put another ‘Bible’ in front of the abbreviation. (haha!)
“I remember attendants being told at a 2 diff circuit assemblies in the late 80’s to wake anyone up they noticed had fallen asleep.”
What a bloody cheek! What they should have done is counseled all the brothers giving the talks at these aforementioned ‘nod offs’ and told them to smarten up and make them more interesting!
Reply
 
 

 anonymous says:

 March 6, 2015 at 6:36 pm

Tonight my husband was going on and on about how to discipline a child. He was saying how important it is to explain why your child should be doing this or that etc and how people don’t do that with their kids so this is what I said to him: “I know how to make a child behave” and he stopped talking and said “what?” and I said “I’d tell them that if they don’t behave that Jehovah is going to kill them”. He looked stunned and finally he said “I don’t agree with that at all” so I said, “yes, that is what I’d do. Tell them that if they don’t behave that Jehovah is going to kill them.” Again he looked at me like I had gone crazy and said again, “well, I don’t agree with that at all.” So then I said, “well that’s what the latest cartoon from the Watchtower says.” I offered to show him the cartoon but he didn’t want to see it.
Reply
 
 Charles Costante says:

 March 6, 2015 at 8:10 pm

Nice one, anonymous!
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/Nice+one! (just in case you didn’t guess the meaning from the context)
Reply
 
 Charles Costante says:

 March 6, 2015 at 9:20 pm

I just checked my previous link and it seems faulty.
Here’s what it says:
 Nice one!
 (British & Australian informal)
 something that you say when you have just heard that someone has done something which you think is good ‘Graham’s brought some champagne along to mark the occasion.’ ‘Oh, nice one, Graham!’
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/Nice+one!
Reply
 
 anonymous says:

 March 7, 2015 at 3:05 am

Thanks Charles.
Reply
 
 
 
 

 MyBirthRight says:

 March 8, 2015 at 4:09 pm

@Charles Cosante
 That was comically meant to stand for b.s.(bullcrap) as in “my book of bible bull****”, instead of “My Book of Bible Stories”, that was printed by WatchTower geared towards children. I was referring to the fear tactics/rules they insisted upon that children of Witnesses not be allowed books even remotely religious in nature that weren’t published by this organization only. I refrained from writing bull-s out of respect for the rules of the forum and in order not to offend anyone who might find it offensive, which is not my intent : )
Reply
 
 Charles Costante says:

 March 8, 2015 at 7:43 pm

“That was comically meant to stand for b.s.(bullcrap) as in “my book of bible bull****””
I was being facetious, MyBirthRight – I knew that’s what you meant (you must have missed my ‘ha ha’ at the end).
Reply
 
 MyBirthRight says:

 March 15, 2015 at 7:22 am

yeah I had missed that part : )
Reply
 
 
 

 MyBirthRight says:

 March 8, 2015 at 4:24 pm

@Charles Costante
 And yes, what cheek Charles, of them to task the attendants to wake people up on those occasions, so as not to risk them missing one single drop of indoctrination for sure! Oh, I wish I could say it ended there Charles, but for a brief time after those two assemblies, which is where I am sure they got this next idea from, the attendants at our congregation were even handed yard sticks to enable them to tap ones furthest across the seats, and were asked to tell members to wake up people near them during the meetings. It didn’t last long thankfully, as it started disagreements and a stop was put to it once the overseer arrived.
ah yes, circuit overseer visits, the time when the congregation put on/out it’s best like they were the parabled wise virgins preparing for their bridegrooms or something when a circuit or district overseer or bethelite came to town. Offering such individuals a figurative alabaster cases brimming in the form of best meals, best show, money and gifts and a mile long list of tattle tales.
I digress, but it’s not surprising that such kinda “wakey wakey or in Armageddon’s bird buffet blazes you’ll bakey” foolishness goes on given the organization’s old time usher period, what I call the Cane Brigade, when old time ushers are said to have walked around “ready to defend” with those white canes, lol
Reply
 

 MyBirthRight says:

 March 8, 2015 at 4:52 pm

@anonymous awesome : )
Reply
 

 Charles Costante says:

 March 8, 2015 at 8:00 pm

“”……… but for a brief time after those two assemblies, which is where I am sure they got this next idea from, the attendants at our congregation were even handed yard sticks to enable them to tap ones furthest across the seats,………………”
It’s a wonder someone didn’t tell them to shove their yardsticks up their @r$#!, MyBirthRight (er, I mean: where the monkey shoved his nuts!).
Reply
 

 MyBirthRight says:

 March 9, 2015 at 10:19 am

@Charles LOL! I think that’s the type of disagreements it started, esp when it was visitor in the hood that it happened to hahaha
Reply
 

 Kat says:

 March 30, 2015 at 5:27 pm

This is disturbing as pediatricians say no TV or vids for children younger than 2 and they didn’t mean months old. My ex would make my 10 yo son stand in the corner for 5 hours if he didn’t sing at meetings. They are a cruel and twisted bunch.
Reply
 

 anonymous says:

 March 31, 2015 at 3:29 pm

Kurt Metzger, who was raised as Jehovah’s Witness and who is an American comedian appeared on the “Nightly Show/Larry Wilmore” show on March 30, 2015 and they were talking about mega churches. Kurt Metzger said how he hated knocking on people’s doors and Larry Wilmore asked him if he’d rather spend the rest of his life being a Jehovah’s Witness or would he rather die in a hot air balloon crash and he said he’d rather die in a hot air balloon crash all the way. He said at least it would be a “cool” ride all the way down.
Reply
 

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← Full program of United States elders meeting leaked on YouTube
Is the media finally grasping just how bad Watchtower’s child abuse problem is? →

“Pay attention or die!” – A disturbing glimpse of JW child indoctrination at work
avatar
Posted on February 13, 2015

The latest JW child indoctrination cartoon carries a threatening message
The latest JW child indoctrination cartoon carries a threatening message

Anyone who was raised as a Jehovah’s Witness can empathize with the scenario of two children struggling to hold their attention at a kingdom hall meeting. And this is exactly the predicament in which Watchtower’s model cartoon children, Caleb and Sophia, find themselves in the latest “Become Jehovah’s Friend” episode – released earlier this month.
So what does the Governing Body want to say to any children who find themselves bored or distracted at a meeting they have been dragged to by their indoctrinated parents? It’s simple, really: “Pay attention, or die.” That grim message comes across loud and clear in the latest installment of Watchtower’s child propaganda series.
In the newly-released “Lesson 15,” entitled “Pay Attention at the Meetings,” young Caleb and Sophia find themselves reprimanded for playing with a toy car (Caleb) and falling asleep (Sophia) by their parents.


In a subsequent discussion around the dinner table, the children’s parents discuss the serious ramifications of failing to pay attention during a meeting. “Imagine if Noah didn’t pay attention when Jehovah explained how to build the ark?” muses Caleb’s father.
A cartoon segment then shows Noah and his family idling around during God’s instructions for building a vessel that the laws of physics say could never have been seaworthy to avoid a global deluge that archeology, geology and biology testify never happened. (If you find anything I’ve said in this paragraph offensive, please watch this video.)
The result? Noah and his family are shown scurrying into the finished ark when the flood is imminent, only for it to comically collapse under the weight of the first drop of water. The whole family is then shown disappearing under the flood waters with startled looks on their faces.
“That’s not what happened, dad!” protests Caleb. “You are right,” says his dad. “He paid attention, and it saved his life. Paying attention at the meetings can help save YOUR life!”
After this not-so-veiled threat, Caleb and Sophia are shown at the next meeting paying rapt attention, apparently buoyed by the knowledge that failure to do so will result in them being slaughtered.
Child indoctrination: increasingly the only way to turn someone into a Jehovah's Witness
Child indoctrination: increasingly the only way to turn someone into a Jehovah’s Witness

I personally found this video even more hideous than the notorious Sparlock episode – one of the first “lessons” in this ghastly series. Why?
At least in the Sparlock episode the threats made against Caleb by his mother for playing with a wizard toy were slightly more opaque. If he didn’t throw his toy away, Caleb would make Jehovah “sad” and grow old and shriveled like Adam and Eve. But in this latest video, the threats made against Caleb and his sister to coerce them into conformity are all too dire and explicit.
How any parent can watch this video and find threats of death at the hands of the Almighty an appropriate, healthy tool for shaping the attitudes and behavior of their children is beyond me.
I am reminded of the words of Richard Dawkins: “There is no such thing as a Christian child: only a child of Christian parents.” Children are not born religious – they need to have it pummeled into them by parents who were very likely themselves instilled with a specific religion dependent on their own parents or culture.
In the case of Witness children, the modus operandi for indoctrination is not merely gentle persuasion and cheerful recommendations but outright threats and blackmail – all endorsed and prescribed by the Governing Body themselves.
The one useful element of this video is that it openly exposes to any non-JW onlooker what the Witness religion is really all about: “Follow us or die.”
I have only recently made a video on this very subject, as it is my hope that more people will be mindful of the true, grisly nature of the Witness message when they are set upon with enchanting images of paradise, pandas and fruit baskets.
Grab a shovel and start exploring this imaginary utopia recommended to you in Watchtower literature, and you will soon discover that these rolling hillsides, bounteous pastures and idyllic homes have been built on the bodies of billions of people who have been massacred for the crime of not wanting to be Jehovah’s Witnesses. Sparing the next generation from having their lives molded by such a grotesque vision of the future is not merely advisable – it is an obligation.

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Further reading…
◾NYDailyNews article
◾Freethinker article
◾Friendly Atheist article
◾Rawstory article
◾JWvictims article
◾Watchtower’s new “Toy Story” – What parents need to know
◾Why it is morally wrong for Watchtower to push baptism on children
◾JWsurvey articles on child indoctrination
Related videos…






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← Full program of United States elders meeting leaked on YouTube
Is the media finally grasping just how bad Watchtower’s child abuse problem is? →

105 Responses to “Pay attention or die!” – A disturbing glimpse of JW child indoctrination at work

← Older Comments

 Excelsior! says:

 February 18, 2015 at 6:31 am

Cuthbert,
I am still patiently waiting for your response to my dilemma.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
 

 Kurt says:

 February 18, 2015 at 10:52 pm

We already know that Caleb’s mom is a manipulative skunt of the worst sort, and can see that his dad is a dull witted schmuck. What amazes me is how unselfconscious these people are who produce these videos, as if they have no idea of how outrageous they would appear to someone of good conscience.
Reply
 

 Sam says:

 February 19, 2015 at 6:15 am

So the wages of not paying attention are death?
Bit harsh isn’t it? Come to that why does an all powerful almighty God, ruler of the universe, divine creator etc etc give two hoots if a child is paying attention or not?
Reply
 

 disillusioned says:

 February 22, 2015 at 1:29 pm

We all used to let our children fall asleep in meetings and were glad that we did so that we got some peace. How can you force a child to stay awake especially at the evening meeting. I remember a brother on the platform saying that even if our children fell asleep the information was still going in. I and many other adults at assemblies used to fall asleep. (They seemed to have that effect, sending people to sleep.) So how can you keep children awake? By pinching them? That mother is harsh.
Reply
 
 Olive says:

 March 14, 2015 at 7:51 pm

When I watched this, I just felt so bad for Sophia in particular. I mean, the kid is eight years old, and it’s close to nine on a school night, and they’re shocked that she fell asleep at the meeting?
What’s the next video going to be? Telling her about the glory of suffering for Jehovah while she counts blisters from walking two miles in dress shoes?
Reply
 
 MyBirthRight says:

 March 15, 2015 at 7:20 am

They would probably pull something like that.
I feel so hurt for the few children who have parents that will take it even further now that there is JW broadcast, and only allow their children to watch anything beside JW broadcast material even for leisure. I heard 2 people hint before there may be no more Sesame Street for their kids now that they have these, it’s very saddening!
Reply
 
 
 

 StrongHaiku says:

 February 24, 2015 at 1:54 pm

Wow! After watching this a couple of times I wondered if the kids are being toilet-trained at gun point. Of what good use is it to be obedient out of fear? Shouldn’t love be the primary motivation? I don’t get it.
Reply
 

 MyBirthRight says:

 March 5, 2015 at 8:56 am

Yes, those are the looks of car ride anxiety attack because they know they’re on their way to a monumental *** whooping or indoctrination guilt trip speech after the meeting.
I’m surprised they showed poor Caleb being allowed to draw during that meeting, as there was always constant cruelty advising parent’s to not allow their kids to draw. Some parents that were more compassionate were looked down upon as not setting an example if their children drew pictures, chatted or played with toys or books, guess the head didn’t have his household in order. And if you were parent who even gave your kids christian themed coloring pages you were looked at as darn near apostate since it wasn’t the My Book of Bible B.S.
This “keep your kids woke” at the hall is nothing new, they are just amping it up now by targeting kids with threats outright. It used to be the story droned in children many years back about the young boy in the bible who fell out of the window by falling asleep during “Paul’s” talk but was supposedly “revived” by Paul in the story, but now the sinister message flat is out pain of unmourned death for falling asleep! I remember attendants being told at 2 diff circuit assemblies in the late 80’s to wake people up they noticed had fallen asleep. What’s next, cartoon of Sophia and Caleb being professionally treated at their teacher’s request after being groomed of course by the parent’s on just what they are allowed to divulge to the doctors, for insomnia and other social/mental disorders because they became afraid to ever fall asleep at all because of fiery Armageddon literature art inspired nightmares and threat of parental abandonment. As well as Sophia’s depression from not being allowed to have friends at school as we witnessed in the Pray Anytime video filled with all kinds of other evidence of how threatening this cult really is.
Reply
 

 MyBirthRight says:

 March 5, 2015 at 11:33 am

Yup, looks like “car ride anxiety attack” on their faces, ‘cuz they know they are on their way to a monumental butt whooping or fear filled guilt trip speech. I’m surprised they showed poor Caleb being allowed to draw during that meeting, as there was always constant cruelty advising parents to not allow kids to draw during meetings. Some parents were looked down upon as not setting an example if their children drew pictures, chatted or played with toys or books. Even parents that gave their kids “christian themed” coloring pages or books you were looked at as darn near apostate since it wasn’t the My Book of Bible B.S.
Back in the day, they droned in children the story about the young boy who fell out of the window because he fell asleep during “Paul’s” talk but was at least “revived” at the end of the story, now the message is pain of unmourned death for falling asleep! I remember attendants being told at a 2 diff circuit assemblies in the late 80’s to wake anyone up they noticed had fallen asleep. What’s next, a cartoon of Sophia and Caleb being treated for insomnia and other social disorders at the teacher’s request of course but only after they’ve been groomed by the parent’s on what to say, because they’ve grown afraid to sleep at all because of fiery Armageddon literature art inspired nightmares or after watching this video. Might as well treat Sophia for the friends issues while they are at it as a result of her thinking she has to alienate herself from other schoolchildren on the bus in that Pray Anytime video.
Reply
 
 Charles Costante says:

 March 6, 2015 at 8:22 pm

“since it wasn’t the My Book of Bible B.S.”
I’m sure the B.S. stands for Bible Study, MyBirthRight, but I can’t understand why you’ve put another ‘Bible’ in front of the abbreviation. (haha!)
“I remember attendants being told at a 2 diff circuit assemblies in the late 80’s to wake anyone up they noticed had fallen asleep.”
What a bloody cheek! What they should have done is counseled all the brothers giving the talks at these aforementioned ‘nod offs’ and told them to smarten up and make them more interesting!
Reply
 
 

 anonymous says:

 March 6, 2015 at 6:36 pm

Tonight my husband was going on and on about how to discipline a child. He was saying how important it is to explain why your child should be doing this or that etc and how people don’t do that with their kids so this is what I said to him: “I know how to make a child behave” and he stopped talking and said “what?” and I said “I’d tell them that if they don’t behave that Jehovah is going to kill them”. He looked stunned and finally he said “I don’t agree with that at all” so I said, “yes, that is what I’d do. Tell them that if they don’t behave that Jehovah is going to kill them.” Again he looked at me like I had gone crazy and said again, “well, I don’t agree with that at all.” So then I said, “well that’s what the latest cartoon from the Watchtower says.” I offered to show him the cartoon but he didn’t want to see it.
Reply
 
 Charles Costante says:

 March 6, 2015 at 8:10 pm

Nice one, anonymous!
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/Nice+one! (just in case you didn’t guess the meaning from the context)
Reply
 
 Charles Costante says:

 March 6, 2015 at 9:20 pm

I just checked my previous link and it seems faulty.
Here’s what it says:
 Nice one!
 (British & Australian informal)
 something that you say when you have just heard that someone has done something which you think is good ‘Graham’s brought some champagne along to mark the occasion.’ ‘Oh, nice one, Graham!’
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/Nice+one!
Reply
 
 anonymous says:

 March 7, 2015 at 3:05 am

Thanks Charles.
Reply
 
 
 
 

 MyBirthRight says:

 March 8, 2015 at 4:09 pm

@Charles Cosante
 That was comically meant to stand for b.s.(bullcrap) as in “my book of bible bull****”, instead of “My Book of Bible Stories”, that was printed by WatchTower geared towards children. I was referring to the fear tactics/rules they insisted upon that children of Witnesses not be allowed books even remotely religious in nature that weren’t published by this organization only. I refrained from writing bull-s out of respect for the rules of the forum and in order not to offend anyone who might find it offensive, which is not my intent : )
Reply
 
 Charles Costante says:

 March 8, 2015 at 7:43 pm

“That was comically meant to stand for b.s.(bullcrap) as in “my book of bible bull****””
I was being facetious, MyBirthRight – I knew that’s what you meant (you must have missed my ‘ha ha’ at the end).
Reply
 
 MyBirthRight says:

 March 15, 2015 at 7:22 am

yeah I had missed that part : )
Reply
 
 
 

 MyBirthRight says:

 March 8, 2015 at 4:24 pm

@Charles Costante
 And yes, what cheek Charles, of them to task the attendants to wake people up on those occasions, so as not to risk them missing one single drop of indoctrination for sure! Oh, I wish I could say it ended there Charles, but for a brief time after those two assemblies, which is where I am sure they got this next idea from, the attendants at our congregation were even handed yard sticks to enable them to tap ones furthest across the seats, and were asked to tell members to wake up people near them during the meetings. It didn’t last long thankfully, as it started disagreements and a stop was put to it once the overseer arrived.
ah yes, circuit overseer visits, the time when the congregation put on/out it’s best like they were the parabled wise virgins preparing for their bridegrooms or something when a circuit or district overseer or bethelite came to town. Offering such individuals a figurative alabaster cases brimming in the form of best meals, best show, money and gifts and a mile long list of tattle tales.
I digress, but it’s not surprising that such kinda “wakey wakey or in Armageddon’s bird buffet blazes you’ll bakey” foolishness goes on given the organization’s old time usher period, what I call the Cane Brigade, when old time ushers are said to have walked around “ready to defend” with those white canes, lol
Reply
 

 MyBirthRight says:

 March 8, 2015 at 4:52 pm

@anonymous awesome : )
Reply
 

 Charles Costante says:

 March 8, 2015 at 8:00 pm

“”……… but for a brief time after those two assemblies, which is where I am sure they got this next idea from, the attendants at our congregation were even handed yard sticks to enable them to tap ones furthest across the seats,………………”
It’s a wonder someone didn’t tell them to shove their yardsticks up their @r$#!, MyBirthRight (er, I mean: where the monkey shoved his nuts!).
Reply
 

 MyBirthRight says:

 March 9, 2015 at 10:19 am

@Charles LOL! I think that’s the type of disagreements it started, esp when it was visitor in the hood that it happened to hahaha
Reply
 

 Kat says:

 March 30, 2015 at 5:27 pm

This is disturbing as pediatricians say no TV or vids for children younger than 2 and they didn’t mean months old. My ex would make my 10 yo son stand in the corner for 5 hours if he didn’t sing at meetings. They are a cruel and twisted bunch.
Reply
 

 anonymous says:

 March 31, 2015 at 3:29 pm

Kurt Metzger, who was raised as Jehovah’s Witness and who is an American comedian appeared on the “Nightly Show/Larry Wilmore” show on March 30, 2015 and they were talking about mega churches. Kurt Metzger said how he hated knocking on people’s doors and Larry Wilmore asked him if he’d rather spend the rest of his life being a Jehovah’s Witness or would he rather die in a hot air balloon crash and he said he’d rather die in a hot air balloon crash all the way. He said at least it would be a “cool” ride all the way down.
Reply
 

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