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David's story: a happy one.
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offlineNachimir
David's story: a happy one.
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Jun 22 05 9:36 PM
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I haven't come here for support, but with the hope that maybe I can give a little. My family was troubled by various things for 20 years, the foremost of which was the JW belief system. We've made good from it.
By the time I was twenty, all of my family had left, with the exception of my father because he never was a JW in the first place. It messed all our lives up during our involvement and for some years afterward, but we discovered that we're a fairly smart and loving bunch of people who were constrained and stupefied by trying to be a "family". Our breakup was the best thing that ever happened to us, propelling us in different directions academically and commercially.
Interestingly, we seem to have independently headed in the same direction morally. I see family members I grew up with as subdued, resentful and bitter becoming very loving people. It seems to me that being "Christ-like" need not have anything to do with being a "Christian". The crux of it for me was finding my disassociated brother crying and suicidal minutes before I was due to go to a meeting. I missed the meeting to help him, reasoning it was the better thing to do, and from then on there was an ever widening gulf between "Being a good person" and "Being a good JW".
After leaving I felt a weight of expectation; I knew that the JWs expected that any who left would be miserable failures. I think all of us feared that, and there were many false starts and doubts before we stopped believing it. I was convinced that it was possible to leave in a healthy, way, so I wrote about it.
Personally, the JW belief system is a large part of my past, and I would not trade that experience. I am glad though that it is gone from my life, which is now filled with psychology, art, game design, photography, and friends.
Two things that have helped me hugely are the books of Kurt Vonnegut, which are as lucid a portrait of Agapean love as I have ever found, and the work of Abraham Maslow. Learning to distinguish actual human needs from the artificial conditions of self-worth imparted by the JW belief system has been invaluable.
I wanted to let others who might be struggling know that it is possible to go through this becoming happy and independent. It takes strength and bloody-minded persistence, but it's doable.
status offlineKingsmeg
Re: David's story: a happy one. #1 [-]
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Jun 22 05 9:47 PM
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Welcome to the board, David. I enjoyed reading your post, there definitely is life after the JWs, and I'm also glad I'm not the only one who has read Maslow. I don't like him, but I've read him...:lol
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Now, in keeping with his theory up to this point, if you want to be truly self-actualizing, you need to have your lower needs taken care of, at least to a considerable extent. This makes sense: If you are hungry, you are scrambling to get food; If you are unsafe, you have to be continuously on guard; If you are isolated and unloved, you have to satisfy that need; If you have a low sense of self-esteem, you have to be defensive or compensate. When lower needs are unmet, you cant fully devote yourself to fulfilling your potentials
Well, that's his theory, anyways. A lot of people will argue that 'self-actualization' requires suppressing some of the lower-ranking needs in Maslow's pyramid. It's perhaps a cliche, but the starving artist is usually a better artist than a well-fed one. According to Maslow, deliberately ignoring your physiological needs so as to put yourself into a certain mental state required to pursue your art is not self-actualization. D'Oh! Back to the drawing board.
I digress. Welcome once again.
Jody :smokin
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Re: David's story: a happy one. #2 [-]
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Jun 22 05 10:18 PM
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Thanks for the welcome.
Yes, Maslow's theory is deeply flawed, but contains a lot of valid information. I'm finding that most of the criticisms of his theory were raised by Maslow himself in his own books. That particular problem was named functional autonomy, and the starving artist was exactly the example he used to illustrate it. Try this as a solution:
Cognitively, we have the ability to construct, stregthen, weaken, and destroy values, which include (but are not limited to) human necessities.
Lucien Seve said that a person will not act outside of their capacity to do so.
A human (or any other organism) is constructed to continally act in some capacity (even if it is resting), but will act only according to what is desirable and what is possible. So, an artist can place their art above eating and sleeping, but destroy their equipment and they will likely do something else before returning to their art. A parent can place the needs of their children above their own - but normally only to a certain degree. Deny a group of people food, and they won't cease to love each other - but if you interpret the hierarchy of needs as a rigid and absolute truth, they "technically should" :)
I think he was dead wrong in many of his observations on social needs; "esteem" is especially open to pathologically unhealthy satisfactions, no clear separation is made between romantic love and love as a social process, and on aesthetics pretty much all he said was [The history of culture shows that aesthetics are vitally important to us, but why, and what aesthetics actually are, and what they do for us? Beats me!].
I think self-actualisation splits into two parts: eradicating pathological inhibitors (physical and psychological), and enhancing one's own capacities. Formulated like that, it allows for the immense subjective breadth in which different individuals can find fulfilment, yet also retains a very clear survival value.
I find his work fascinating, mainly because he found so many problems to be solved.
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welcome nachimir i hope that you will stick around i loved reading your story.
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Re: David's story: a happy one. #4 [-]
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Hmmmm.... I still prefer Carl Rogers. :p
Oh well, to each his own.
Jody :smokin
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Hi Nachimir and Welcome to the boards!
Thanks for sharing your story with us all and we look forward to seeing more from you!
Hugs and blessings,
Suzi Q~
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Hello David. Welcome here.
Thanks for such a positive post. I have printed out your stuff and will have a read later...
Just wanted to say hi!
Love
Sarah xxx
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Jun 23 05 7:04 AM
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Hi David...welcome to the site!
I agree with Sarah... that is a very positive post and I appreciate it very much. I too am trying to move forward in my life with positive things at this point but am glad to help others.
Thanks again for sharing.
:)
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Hi David,
Thanks for taking the time to post, and to help others.
It is great to see good people who care and understand and can give back to those who are still in need.
I will read all of the links/posts from you this weekend.
lik2bfree
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That is a nice story, David. To me it seems like a fairy tale. I've been waiting 25 years for my family to leave the faith. Well, guess it's time to let that dream go, huh? Anyway, I am very encouraged to hear your healthy results. One positive in my family is that most of my cousins my age did not stick to the JW thing. A number of them developed all kinds of other dysfunctional behavior, but I think some of them are okay, now. They do all the worldly things and still have a relationship with their family, both witnesses and non. So, I think it is possible for people to be a little more balanced than the baptized Witnesses. They're so brainwashed. Thanks for offering the hope. You remind me that some of my isolation from family has just as much to do with geographical distance as does dysfunctional JW stuff. It's interesting that I've stayed in an area close to my JW relatives for many years. (I moved to a larger city about 20 some miles away. It's often as if I moved to another country. Maybe it's time for a change? I always wanted to travel.
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It is fantastic when I see people leave and become better people who just appreciate the great things in life, like people just for who they are, good art, books, ideas and such. I like the distinction between being a good person and being a good JW. Leaving is a part of the process of becoming a self actualized person.
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16 years and counting
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offlineMissmarvel
16 years and counting
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Well its been 16 years since I said goodbye to my family (sister, mother and father) and apart from the odd phonecall to tell me the news of dieing relatives, they havnt spoken to me since.
I have one grand parent still remaining and cherish him dearly - thank god he isnt a J.W !!
Im deep into my second year of therapy and it just doesnt seem to be getting any easier. I'm trying my hardest to shake off the mind control that still remains with me and every day something will trigger something in me that makes me what to hide under the covers.
I struggle to hold down relationships of any kind and always feel like I don't quite fit in.
I've come here to find like minded people and hopefully learn to be a better person through sharing my experiences with everyone.
Any words, thoughts, coping strategies would be lovely to hear,
Lucy
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MissMarvel, welcome and I hope you find some consolation here. Sixteen years is a long time to be struggling on your own. You are to be commended for that--I am glad you found this place--and may you have peace now.
You say: "I'm trying my hardest to shake off the mind control that still remains with me and every day something will trigger something in me that makes me what to hide under the covers."
We may be in a better position to help if you can add a little more detail--as to what kind of mind control that is still controlling you. How much do you know of the Watchtower Society and its practices--do you still believe that they are directed by God?
What helped me to shake them off is learning more about the inner workings of those in power and that they are just as confused and probably even more so then the common JW. Their word is just that--their word. No one else's-you are just as capable as any one of them.
You may want to get a book written by Ray Franz a former member of the governing body at the headquarters in New York, "Crisis of Conscience". It will give you insight as to what really goes on there.
Send love and hugs and a happier day. smiley: smile
“The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen nor even touched—
They must be felt with the heart.”
Helen Keller
status offlineGoingForth
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Sorry for all those blank postings. I had some problem. It would not post at all at first--so I kept trying. Then it posted all the trys!! Then I had a problem deleting them, they were all the same!
I must call, please, on the administrators to please delete all the blank ones!!
Sorry for the trouble. Still don't know why it happened--never had a problem like that before.
“The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen nor even touched—
They must be felt with the heart.”
Helen Keller
status offlinemaksutov
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Hi Missmarvel. Sorry to hear about the shunning you have been experiencing - it is a devastatingly cruel practice. It sounds like you are having trouble moving on with your life after leaving the cult, although it is not really clear from your post what in particular is troubling you. For most of us who leave, the best way to shake off the mind control is to do research into the organisation, and learn to see it for what is is: a high control group. The website jwfacts.com is helpful in that regard, although it can be a bit overwhelming at first. I wrote a book about my reasons for leaving, which might be of interest. There is also Crisis of Conscience by Ray Franz, which is really excellent and very helpful.
You might already have read up on all that stuff though, in which case you probably need to figure out what to do with your life next. If therapy is not working, might it be possible to try a different therapist? Maybe try and establish some new friendships via meetup.com or a local volunteer group? Do you have any creative or hobby interests that you could pursue further? Or perhaps look into philosophy to help get control of your thoughts and find new tools for coping?
In any case, we are all quite familiar with the confusing and painful feelings that come from leaving the JWs, so feel free to have a rant on here, and I'm sure you'll get plenty more supportive comments and suggestions.
Free e-Book: Jehovah's Witnesses - Reasons for Leaving (and for not joining).
Russ.
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Hello there Missmarvel and welcome :-)
when you look back at the control exercised by the religion, and the isolation that the rules demand of us, its hardly surprising that when we manage to escape we are ill-equipped to cope in the real world....there are very few (if any) that are unscathed emotionally...
I know 16 years seems like forever, but your attitude to what has happened, and the ongoing fall-out from your decision can greatly affect your ability to feel more 'balanced'
In my own experience....although I became inactive I had never actually looked into the teachings of the jw's.....so I still felt for many years that I had left the 'truth'..........the religion, and the people, were all that had made up my life up to that point, and I felt very isolated and lost....I even used to harbour dreams of maybe returning to the religion, simply in order to try and regain some 'normality'.....thankfully I found this place and all these other survivors of the religion before I acted on those feelings!!
It has only been since talking to others who truly understand the difficult journey out of the religion....and feeling strong enough to research freely for the first time ever, that I have managed to put things in perspective, and that has helped so much with dealing with the legacy of my upbringing.......
You are most definitely not alone in these feelings...and talking with others who understand definitely cannot do any harm...
Good to have you here, and hope you enjoy getting to know others from all over the world who are at different stages of that journey
Hugs
Sam x
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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onlineCeltic Warrior
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Well after a self imposed exile I'm back.
Hope you are all well?
Shane
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Could it be?? Is this 'celtic warrior' actually our Irishshane????? Oh I do hope so, I've missed ya smiley: smile
Hope Trish and Cian are well too...... if its not you I have no idea who you are, and you have no idea what I'm rambling on about
So either.....welcome.....or WELCOME HOME X
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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It could be! image
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Yay......welcome back Shane......what's new? xx
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status onlineCeltic Warrior
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Whats new?
Where to start?
Long story short JW crap with mum is still ongoing but hey whatever.
Currently campaigning hard for the yes side in the upcoming marriage equality referendum here in Ireland on Friday.
Turned 40 last year and definitely feel like I'm approaching a crossroads in my life. Where it goes from here I'm not sure.
Trish and Cian both well. Cian had another ear op on the other ear to repair the eardrum (same op as was done a few years back on the other ear). Was a resounding success according to the surgeon on his 3 month check up last week.
Hope you and your hubby are doing well Sam
Last Edited By: Celtic Warrior 2 days ago. Edited 1 times.
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Yes...welcome back, Shane. It's good to have you here again. Group hug
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Hi Shane, I've missed you! Welcome back!
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Turned 40 last year
*sigh* you young'uns!! I remember thinking 40 was a milestone (that was until I got to 60 smiley: eek)
In my experience Shane, its just more of the same...ups and downs, cos you don't actually feel any different... but while you're otherwise occupied someone keeps adding numbers to your age (and pressing the accelerator!!)
That is great news about Cian....I know how worried you were about the other op......and yes, Friday will be very interesting, and a BIG deal for Ireland if it is yes!
Yep - we're okay........crap year really.....both dogs died (but they were 15!).....on the day we were going away for the weekend for my birthday I ended up in an ambulance going to A & E with a nose-bleed that lasted for nearly two hours (we still went away, but I ended up confined to the room cos it happened twice more)......and Geoff tripped in the supermarket car park and broke two fingers.............but that's our '3 things'....so it should be great from here lol!! xx
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status onlineCeltic Warrior
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solitaire wrote:
Turned 40 last year
*sigh* you young'uns!! I remember thinking 40 was a milestone (that was until I got to 60 image) In my experience Shane, its just more of the same...ups and downs, cos you don't actually feel any different... but while you're otherwise occupied someone keeps adding numbers to your age (and pressing the accelerator!!)That is great news about Cian....I know how worried you were about the other op......and yes, Friday will be very interesting, and a BIG deal for Ireland if it is yes! Yep - we're okay........crap year really.....both dogs died (but they were 15!).....on the day we were going away for the weekend for my birthday I ended up in an ambulance going to A & E with a nose-bleed that lasted for nearly two hours (we still went away, but I ended up confined to the room cos it happened twice more)......and Geoff tripped in the supermarket car park and broke two fingers.............but that's our '3 things'....so it should be great from here lol!! xx
Sorry to hear about the dogs. Never nice to lose pets.
And wow yourself and Geoff have been in the wars. As you say lets hope you've had your 3 things for the year
Not sure if it's an age thing or more me coming to a realisation about various things but I think changes maybe afoot but more about that another time as I work them out myself.
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Hi Shane! So good to hear from you - I was thinking of you just the other day.
I have a friend who is holidaying in Ireland right now. Two days ago, I received a huge box in the mail full of goodies from your fair land. I am wearing a gorgeous pure wool sweater from the Aran Sweater Market as I type this.
Ah...so you have reached the 40 year milestone...life is just beginning - it gets better from here on in.
Glad to hear your family is doing well. :)
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Hey Shane! I knew you'd be back, lol. Good for you with the campaigning - I really hope Ireland can join the 21st century. I turned 40 last year too, only a couple of months until I'm 41 (but it can't be, I only just turned 40 dammit!).
Sam you have had a crap year so far, haven't you?! Hope things pick up for you.
Free e-Book: Jehovah's Witnesses - Reasons for Leaving (and for not joining).
Russ.
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Hi Sharon. Missed some of the friends here who aren't on FB so like the prodigal son (don't any of you go calling me that now!) I came crawling back.
I hope your friend is enjoying her travels around here. Our weather is awful right now. Very cold for this time of year.
Russ I'm only 3 months off 41 and I'm also clinging on to the big 4 0. The campaigning is going well. The Yes side is polling well but as the recent UK elections showed polls can lie. So lets hope all the people saying they will vote yes do so.
"Beware of the man whose God is in the skies."
- George Bernard Shaw
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Hi Sharon.
pssst, Shane...I am Dianne. Sharon is Whytebyrd. But, that's okay - people get us mixed up all the time.
Sharon and I are the same age, but, the way to tell us apart is that I am taller than her. Sharon is the short one.
smiley: wink
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birdwoman2 wrote:
Hi Sharon.
pssst, Shane...I am Dianne. Sharon is Whytebyrd. But, that's okay - people get us mixed up all the time.
Sharon and I are the same age, but, the way to tell us apart is that I am taller than her. Sharon is the short one.
image
How embarassing! image
Well Dianne I hope you are well.
I recently reconnected with a lady (and her daughter) who left her husband and was df'd back when I was in my teens. She is now living in Canada (Vancouver I think) and I thought of you when we got in contact.
Now where is Sharon?
"Beware of the man whose God is in the skies."
- George Bernard Shaw
Last Edited By: Celtic Warrior 2 days ago. Edited 1 times.
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only a couple of months until I'm 41 (but it can't be, I only just turned 40 dammit!).
Ha!! I told you.....there's that foot on the accelerator (and when you just turn 50, that pedal hits the floor smiley: tongue)
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlineGurgi
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Ey up.
Nice to see you back. I did wonder where you were and missed your input to the forums.
Sometimes we need a break from stuff, hope you're well.
'Do a barrel roll!' - Peppy Hare, Lylat Wars - N64
'Andross wont have his way with me!' - Fox McCloud, Lylat Wars - N64
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Here I am *waving wildly* !!!
I've been busy getting reacquainted with facebook, something I never thought I'd do. Anyway, so good to have you back!
40 years huh? I consider 42 one of the most momentous years of my life. I walked away from Jdubdom never to return. Yes, fond memories of my early 40's. Sam is so right, every year is pretty much the same after that. I'm pushing 58 come this summer on OUR birthday. We do share a birthday I believe.
Been adding folks to my facebook so hopefully get you on there too.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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feel free to add me Sharon.
I'll PM you my facebook link
"Beware of the man whose God is in the skies."
- George Bernard Shaw
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Drunk Dad reading at the bible study
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offlinewetogether
Drunk Dad reading at the bible study
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My Jehovah’s Witness journey doesn’t really get off the ground until my dad quit drugs and became an active member of the religion.
At first, I had the common experience of being a little kid who has a mom who is trying to go to meetings and choose the narrow path
to salvation, and the inactive but believing dad, but my dad happened to be a drug dealer and addict. So, we are at the meeting, getting
our “spiritual food” and then when we get home and walk in the door, my dad is smoking crack, and using the burner on the stove to heat it up.
When I was 11, we moved to a new small town, and my dad went through rehab. Newly sober, he decided that he was going to start
going to AA meetings and Kingdom hall meetings. Well, the AA meetings didn’t last very long at all. I wonder if this was a good choice,
because people are putting trust in the elders who are making decisions about people’s lives, but they aren’t medical professionals,
counselors, or social workers. They are just some random people who found some religion that makes all the decisions for them.
I think of this whenever I think of how they handled my dad and his problem. See, even though he had sobered up, I don’t think he
ever tried to do the personal work one does in order to have a happier, more fulfilled relationship with oneself and the people around
them that makes them a better person. Actually, I feel that the JW organization actively discourages that.
My dad could have been on a path like that, but he swallowed the whole idea that if you are unhappy, if your family is suffering,
then you need to pray, and ask for the help of Jehovah to help you persevere. It never occurred to anyone around me that maybe it
wasn’t Satan, the Devil working overtime that was causing our problems, but because my parents needed some serious help.
Any self improvement work that they did was through studying the WT literature like the Family Life book, which has some great advice,
such as talking to your son about his struggles with masturbation. The mere thought of my dad broaching that subject horrified me.
I could never talk about my junk with this person who was emotionally and physically abusive, and who I could never trust in any aspect
of my life. Once, he did try to bring it up, and even in an embarrassed sort of way. I just sort of excused myself from the room, and
he never brought it up again.
My mom tried to work on herself a little bit. Aside from the library of Jehovah’s Witness literature, the few other books in our house included
one called Codependent No More. But she never followed through. My dad, though, forget about it.
For about four years, my dad was the über zealous Jehovah’s Witness. My mom was sort of checked out of the JW religion, just showing up to
the meetings. My family did the same thing we had always done, which was to hide our problems and pretend that we were all okay
at all times. But when he started drinking and popping pills again, it all began to unravel.
At this point, he was trying really hard to become a Ministerial servant, and was on a raging power trip. He was in his mid 30s and
he was on the same level of the JW hierarchy as the kids who were still under 20. I mean, 16 year old boys were running the mics and
managing the sound equipment, and he just barely started getting the privilege of doing the reading at the bible study.
He had been pioneering for about two years, and felt ready to move up, but the elders felt that he wasn’t quite ready yet. He was pretty
disappointed about that. I guess maybe he forgot that less than 3 years before, he was a uncontrollable drunk and crackhead,
and a drug dealer who pulled a gun on my mom and almost killed her. Plus I also think that they thought my mom was spiritually weak,
and I was pretty noncommittal myself.
He already ruled his family with an iron hand. But then he started trying to control what other people were doing, saying that the
teenage pioneer kids had no respect for authority. He also had started giving his pioneering partner, LaDonna, a tough time
because she was using applied kinesiology to determine what types of herbs to take. This involves holding an herb in one hand,
and testing the muscle strength in her other hand. He thought that it was using divination.
The interesting thing about it is that LaDonna is one of the most zealous JW’s I have ever met. You should have seen her Watchtower!
I mean, wow! Comments on every line, and I remember one of them had “I love this one!” written on the cover. She loved the Watchtower.
The reason he was able to be a pioneer was because at one point, he had been a construction worker, and had injured his back on
the job. He managed to get a disability pension from the injury so he didn’t have to work, and we had a small but sustaining income
coming in every month.
One day, an older brother who was sick gave him some pain killers, unaware of his drug addiction problems. My dad took them,
and I can’t remember now but somehow it triggered his addiction and he began drinking heavily on the sly.
First, we just noticed some weird things. We moved into a new house, and he just hid out in the back shed.
Which, really was fine by the rest of my family, because he had hounded everyone so much that the less he was around, the better.
But then we found two empty bottles of whiskey in the bottom of the garbage can.
We requested a meeting with one of the elders and took the bottles with us. It was a sort of retribution for all of the grief that he had
caused us as a family. The elder and his wife were sort of taken aback, but the elder agreed to talk with my dad and figure out what was up.
My dad, suddenly humbled by the whole situation, wasn’t so keen on being the control freak he had been, but then he began
getting belligerently drunk on a regular basis. He also started walking with a cane and asked the elders if they could provide
a recliner chair for him at the kingdom hall. They did provide one that was reupholstered in the same scratchy pink fabric as the rest
of the chairs, which was placed in the back row where our family had usually sat. What a comical sight!
My dad was still reading at the book study, but one night, he was reading in this really peculiar way, and I had this realization.
Oh, my god, he was trying to hide that he was as drunk as a skunk up there on the stage! I wish I could say what happened,
but no one told me. Suffice it to say, I am pretty sure he didn’t do any more reading at the book study after that.
Things were nuts at home too. Exasperated, my mom called on the elders one night while my dad was super drunk. You should
have seen the look on his face when he was sitting on the kitchen floor yelling, and there is a knock on the door, and in come all of these
elders with bibles in their hands. Arguing with a drunk man in tough enough, but they were trying to reason with him with scriptures from
the bible. Old brother Jovanovic said, “Let me beat you up with this bible!” He needed more than bible verses, thats for sure. He argued
with the elders for awhile and they left. I think that he was reproved.
After seeing that my dad was beyond help from the elders, she began calling the cops when he got crazy. And he went to jail.
A couple of times.
By this point, the elders were ready to DF my dad. The thing was, the elders didn’t want to, but they didn’t have a lot of choice,
since it was the JW protocol. On the night they announced his disfellowship, he actually showed up to the meeting. I think he thought that
they wouldn’t actually go through with it.
My sisters and I went to a different kingdom hall that night. Someone told me that before the meeting, my dad had been talking with
people like nothing was any different from any other night. When they announced it though, he got up out of his recliner chair and
ran out of the kingdom hall. Some elders went after him, and saw him jump into his car and drive away, yelling “I love you all!”
After that, he moved back to the city to try to get back on track, but ended up drinking himself to death in a matter of months.
I don’t think anyone took it as hard as LaDonna when my dad was DF’d. I would even say that she took it harder when he was DF’d
than when he died. Because then, at least he would be resurrected.
My mom had been DF’d when it happened, and all the witnesses came over to our house anyway and offered support to
my mom and the rest of our family, which was pretty great.
That has been quite a while ago. I think that if my dad hadn’t died, I would most probably be estranged from him today.
At the same time, I can’t help but wonder if he had been around people who knew a better way to address the situation,
like helping him get treatment instead of deserting him, he would have survived. Isn’t that what churches and communities
are for?
I think about that congregation from time to time. The Kingdom hall is the same old place, same literature, same boring meetings.
I find it fascinating how it continues, almost without even a sense of history, but instead with a narrow focus on this elusive
‘paradise on Earth’ pie in the sky that everyone puts their life on hold for.
During that time, the ups and downs were a formative experience for me, but this whole drama unfolding was just a flash in the pan
of this congregation.
The old timers might remember that crazy family with the disinterested mom, the kid who had green hair, and the dad who tried so hard.
I wonder if they bring it up every now and then.
But mostly, I wonder what they ever did with that scratchy pink recliner.
status offlineCacky
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You are a really good writer. Welcome to the board. I enjoyed reading this.
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Hello there wetogether and welcome :-)
As Cacky said that was brilliantly written......the trouble is this is your life, and not fiction!! Wow, you have been through the mill, and with the backdrop the the religion it was just made worse....
if you are unhappy, if your family is suffering,
then you need to pray, and ask for the help of Jehovah to help you persevere.
This is why there are so many who suffer in silence, because they are made to feel that anything negative that happens to them or their loved ones, is simply due to their inability to 'lean on jehovah' or pray hard enough, or sincerely enough smiley: sick
I'm sorry you lost your father.......good or bad, once they are gone it is always a case of the 'what-if's'....and there is sadly never the opportunity to address issues or hope for a positive change........
Thankyou for sharing some of your story.....it can be cathartic to actually put all that pain down in words...and who better to share those with than other 'survivors' who understand how difficult that is...
Good to have you here
Sam x
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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image wetogether and image to the forum.
status onlineCeltic Warrior
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A well written story.
Sorry to hear about your dad's addiction problems. Sometimes there is just nothing that can be done for addicts in the end.
Beating them up with a bible wont help. Funny part of the story though.
"Beware of the man whose God is in the skies."
- George Bernard Shaw
status offlineGurgi
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Welcome, wetogether.
Yes, the JW's and their version of "the truth" does no favours in terms of offering help to those in need of assistance.
The lady who got my mum involved with the JW's had a husband who was an alcoholic. On some occasions he turned up to meetings i could tell he was drunk.
He got involved with AA, his wife talked to me about it when we went on field service.
As i understand it, AA use the involvement of God. I don't fully understand how this works and interestingly, i've had occasion just recently to look at the involvement of AA on a band member i was finding out more about with her own drug and alcohol abuse. The person in question gave up music for God and is now.... a pastor.
I wish you well on your journey of recovery.
'Do a barrel roll!' - Peppy Hare, Lylat Wars - N64
'Andross wont have his way with me!' - Fox McCloud, Lylat Wars - N64
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Sharing my Screw-you-I-quit letter
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offlineMagenta
Sharing my Screw-you-I-quit letter
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Hi Everyone - it's been awhile. You were all so much help to me. It's been fantastic just getting on with my life.
But some things need to be said (eventually) so I delivered the following letter (by email with a read receipt - so I know he got it) to the PO of my old congregation a few days ago.
Waiting to see how the powers-that-be (who move in mysterious ways) will respond, if at all.
Here's what it says...
This is to inform you that I disassociate myself from the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Watchtower Society.
I regret that I was ever associated with an organization that:
•· Breaks up families and drives people to suicide through its shunning policy.
•· Teaches that people who have chosen to leave are “mentally diseased” http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/28/jehovahs-witness-magazine_n_985479.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8791196/Police-inquiry-over-Jehovahs-Witness-magazine-mentally-diseased-article.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/war-of-words-breaks-out-among-jehovahs-witnesses-2361448.html
•· Drives its members into depression with unreasonable expectations , mixed messages and emotional blackmail http://masonemerson.freeyellow.com/christianwitnessescom/id178.html https://www.change.org/p/launch-an-investigation-to-determine-if-jehovah-s-witnesses-have-a-right-to-use-coercion-forms-of-mental-torture-to-force-its-members-not-to-leave
•· Protects sexual abusers in positions of authority instead of protecting and seeking justice for the young victims http://www.silentlambs.org/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/another-church-sex-scandal/ http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/march5/11.23.html/ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/2119903.stm
•· Pays out millions to settle sexual abuse cases but keeps the rank and file in ignorance on these matters. http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/oct/31/jehovahs-witness-sex-abuse-judgment-lopez/ (I wonder how ordinary JWs feel about their contributions being used in this way.)
•· Warps young minds with “us and them” thinking and graphic pictures and descriptions of death and destruction, which I consider to be an insidious form of child-abuse. I personally know of children who have told fellow classmates (with delight) that Jehovah is going to kill them.
•· Revels in spreading the “good news” that everyone but them will die horrible deaths at Armageddon – an event they have predicted dozens of times, but remains “around the corner”, “on the horizon”, “on our doorstep” etc… etc… I personally have been in the company of those who are thrilled at the idea that Jehovah is going to slaughter those who will not listen and toe the line.
•· Discourages people from educating themselves adequately, to the detriment of themselves and their families.
•· Constantly changes policies under the pretense that such changes are “new light” when, in fact, they are simply made up by a group of men with their own agenda who have no idea what the rank and file go through in trying to adhere to these policies. http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/i-do-not-answer-to-watchtower-stunning-gerrit-losch-declaration-revealed
•· Are prepared to take fractions of blood donated by “worldly” people (the same worldly people who are not worthy of associating with and will die horribly at Armageddon), but don’t donate to blood banks themselves.
•· Makes inconsistent and unsupported rulings that affect millions of lives around the world. One particularly tragic example being the situation in Malawi as compared with that in Mexico in the 1970s and 1980s when a Watchtower doctrinal principle that lead to the torture and death of 1000’s of Malawian Witnesses was excused for those in Mexico. Malawian Witnesses suffered unspeakable atrocities due to following the Watchtower’s policy forbidding them to hold a political card in a one party state. During the same period, Witnesses in Mexico were permitted to bribe officials for a Cartilla card in order to escape military service.
Anyway, I could go on and on, but it would be pointless as apparently I am “mentally diseased” in your eyes.
I can’t wipe out the memories of the anguish I suffered by being emotionally blackmailed into adhering to mind-controlling policies that make no sense, enforced by mere men who are so often not living up to those policies themselves, nor can I regain the 17 years I wasted as a JW, but at least I have the peace of mind of knowing that I’m done with the hypocrisy of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Kindly ensure that all my records are destroyed.
status offlineCacky
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That was really good.
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Very good or should I say outstanding!!! Reminds me of my letter I sent them back in 80's. I didn't get a response, you might not either, perhaps a visit from them to dumb you down further.
status offlinehalf banana
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Magenta, just how those "kingdom smiles" deceive... your summary of the hidden downside of being a JW is to the point and very powerful.
You never know but some of the committee may even read it and take note?
Well done for putting your life in order and letting the elders know the truth about the Watchtower religion!
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Magenta - I'd agree that your letter was forthcoming and you took a risk for stating such...knowing, that to do such could create further problems.
IMO, it's once we stop living in fear of what WTBTS and their drones do for protecting such evil - it's over for us at one level and then we often find ourselves doing battle against them because of; the reasons you wrote about.
I think you did a fine job for sharing your thoughts/feelings with the organization that may or may not listen to your concerns. At least you broke away from THEIR fear...and that's what helps keep any organization in control is for the members to live in fear. Damn! I hate that religion.
We all know to choose our battles carefully depending upon our circumstances. And we keep coming back here for support Big Grin
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Thanks! I wrote a letter too to the society and all of them.. Too long to put on but I included to tell them. "Now I will tell you this - you have broken my heart". Yes I was in for 42 years. I only try to say well I benefited in some ways. Maybe delivering talks and being able to talk to complete strangers. I don't know where I would be if I hadn't been able to run somewhere at the tender age of 10. I wrote a simple poem once. "It is a paradox that was saves you, in the end can destroy you." So I said this even before I was out. The J.W. don't own the Bible or God. Also if you can't reason with them Realize this "you can't reason with crazy people". Believe me I know because I have tried. It just makes you crazy. Now you are free, so untangle those knots!
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Magenta, I usually say 'don't' send one of those disassociation letters but WOW! That is one great letter. Something about the way you worded it makes me think that the P.O. Might be compelled to read it in it's entirety. I hope so and I hope other elders will see it too. I think I'm not alone in thinking it would be a nice template for all of us for either a DA letter or just to answer any JW who might ask us why we left and are not coming back.
Well done!
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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Magenta, that was great. Thank you for writing it.
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Wow brilliant letter!! Whether they read it to the end or not, it is still more than worthwhile to see that all in black and white..........if anyone ever has any inkling of feeing sorry that they left the organisation, your letter should put paid to the 'rosy glasses' nostalgia !!!
Thanks for sharing.......and good to see you about the place again smiley: smile
Sam xx
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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A pure pleasure to read Magenta. Great job!
I didn't write one myself--just felt they weren't worth the effort and time. But if I could have put together as good a letter as you did--I certainly would have written it! Who cares whether they read it or not it would just feel good to tell them off like that!!
“The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen nor even touched—
They must be felt with the heart.”
Helen Keller
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... yeehahhhhh Magenta! #10 [-]
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woohoo Margie! Way to go you!!!!
I am not a fan of sending that lot letters of any kind ... as invariably they use our own words against us, but as Sharon pointed out ... 'that is one great letter'.
You may get a response as in 'you're now disassociated' ..... but the hierarchy seem to forget that when you send a letter like that ... you've already disassociated yourself therefore they no longer have control! It will be interesting to see if you do get a reply ...... or if they just let you know via the grapevine that you're 'out'! Bet you're walking taller than you normally do!!!! wave
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Thank you everyone! This forum kept me sane in my darkest moments...
I copied my DA son (whom I shunned for a time) with this email. This was his response (made it so worthwhile)...
Wow. Just wow. Well put, Mom, and much respect for speaking your mind so boldly.
It's up to you as to how you want to take it from here, but I think that perhaps at some point it may be of benefit to (my still JW daughter) to read your letter. I don't know what timing would be best, but I think there are things in there that she should hear from you, especially since she might not want to ask you directly what your reasons were. But you will know what is best either way.
I love you very much, and, although we've been through some very difficult times as a family, I want you to know that I value our relationship very highly and I am proud to call you my Mom.
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I have since heard from the PO of the congregation I was last associated with. He phoned -- called me Maggie -- smiley: eyes ... and asked if I had written the letter and stand by what it says.
So I told him Yes and he may find it enlightening to read it in its entirety and check the references. He very crisply said "that's all I wanted to know". So I told him that when they make their announcement, could he at least make an effort to get my name right.
That was just before new year. I warned my daughter that there was likely to be an announcement. She and her husband are not in the same congregation, but word will get around soon enough.
She asked why and I just said I can't pretend to believe in something I just don't. I didn't go into details at this stage. Would rather work on her more subtly ...
Haven't heard anything yet --- but as we know, the elders work in mysterious ways.
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Glad you are still working through the problems with clarity and determination Magenta. You can rightly be proud of yourself for your actions.
It’s clear that the whole shebang is about loyalty to the cult which falsely promises the impossible.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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Great letter Magenta - must have been quite cathartic to write! Glad to hear you are doing OK. :)
Russ.
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Magenta wrote:
Thank you everyone! This forum kept me sane in my darkest moments...
I copied my DA son (whom I shunned for a time) with this email. This was his response (made it so worthwhile)...
Wow. Just wow. Well put, Mom, and much respect for speaking your mind so boldly.
It's up to you as to how you want to take it from here, but I think that perhaps at some point it may be of benefit to (my still JW daughter) to read your letter. I don't know what timing would be best, but I think there are things in there that she should hear from you, especially since she might not want to ask you directly what your reasons were. But you will know what is best either way.
I love you very much, and, although we've been through some very difficult times as a family, I want you to know that I value our relationship very highly and I am proud to call you my Mom.
Beating heart This is absolutely beautiful! Beating heart Both of my kids said essentially the same thing-- 'I love you and have always known everything you have ever done was out of love.' Your relationship with your son will only get better from here! Your letter was brilliant, factual and well documented. Shame on them for not even knowing your name!
Do you think your daughter and her husband will shun you? Do take care of yourself, Magenta!
What is needed for dramatic change is an accumulation of acts, adding, adding to, adding more, continuing. We know that it does not take everyone on Earth to bring justice and peace, but only a small, determined group who will not give up during the first, second, or hundredth gale.
One of the most calming and powerful actions you can do to intervene in a stormy world is to stand up and show your soul. Soul on deck shines like gold in dark times. The light of the soul throws sparks, can send up flares, builds signal fires, causes proper matters to catch fire. To display the lantern of soul in shadowy times like these – to be fierce and to show mercy toward others; both are acts of immense bravery and greatest necessity.
Struggling souls catch light from other souls who are fully lit and willing to show it. If you would help to calm the tumult, this is one of the strongest things you can do.
Excerpts from, You Were Made for This, by Clarissa Pinkola Estes, Ph.D
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That was perfect. Now you can live like a normal person and understand what it means to really love people on your own, not governed by a group of men who have self appointed themselves as lord and savior.
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This made me feel better vicariously.
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Hey Magenta your post got me to thinking. I wonder if everybody gets a call from them about a letter like yours? If not, is it possible to send disassociation letters in behalf of our loved ones. LOL That would be a hoot!
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Beautifully written, Magenta! And lol inspector about writing DA letters on behalf of our loved ones! Perhaps it would be just the thing to pique their interest enough that they break the rules and read the letter that was written on their behalf.
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... hey MAGGIE ... how did I miss this? #20 [-]
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Magenta wrote:
I have since heard from the PO of the congregation I was last associated with. He phoned -- called me Maggie -- smiley: eyes ... and asked if I had written the letter and stand by what it says.
So I told him Yes and he may find it enlightening to read it in its entirety and check the references. He very crisply said "that's all I wanted to know". So I told him that when they make their announcement, could he at least make an effort to get my name right.
That was just before new year. I warned my daughter that there was likely to be an announcement. She and her husband are not in the same congregation, but word will get around soon enough.
She asked why and I just said I can't pretend to believe in something I just don't. I didn't go into details at this stage. Would rather work on her more subtly ...
Haven't heard anything yet --- but as we know, the elders work in mysterious ways.
Chuckle just kidding Margie ..........
Have you heard anything since Jan 22? It amuses me that your elder did the quiet 'I'm being serious here' thing with you ... what a tosser. He reminds me of the idiot who turned up in my mother's hospital room the first day I was there ..... telling me that here was there to visit 'Mrs (my mum's surname)' but he asked if I was her! Hilarious chap ... I had great delight in playing with him prior to telling him to leave the room via my 'off you pop now ... and don't forget to close the door on your way' comment!
How have your daughter and SIL reacted to the news ..... or haven't you been officially ousted as yet?
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Sharing my Screw-you-I-quit letter
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status offlineMagenta
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Well, of course, as we all know, it's not as simple as having your say and riding off into the sunset....
I have no idea whether an announcement has been made or not. My daughter and SIL are treating me as if nothing untoward has happened --- except that my daughter is battling more than ever with her ongoing depression.
This leaves me with HUGE guilt feelings.
Is this my fault?
Are people saying things to her?
Should I have just left things alone? (too late for that now)
Why did a bring a child into this world? Clearly, she's not enjoying her time here... (feel VERY guilty about that)
Anyway, she went to a psychologist today, which I'm hoping will help. Knowing she had the appointment today, I took the plunge on the weekend and said this to her ... (to the best of my recollection).
quote...
I know I'm treading on thin ice by bringing this up, but I think you'd be doing yourself a disservice if you don't at least acknowledge how difficult it is to be a Jehovah's Witness and how this may contribute to your anxiety and depression. I raised you in this religion, so I know... I was there. I also know that your first reaction right now is to shut me down or to ignore any criticism against the religion. I used to do the same thing. But the truth is that your whole life you've been bombarded with mixed messages and been set goals that are unattainable. You're the most important thing in Jehovah's eyes, he counts the hairs on your head --- but you're never good enough and must strive to do better. Jehovah is merciful --- but the people you care about are going to die. Jehovah's people are joyful - so why aren't you? I'm not saying you must abandon your beliefs if that's what you think is right for you, but at least acknowledge that these beliefs may be adding to your anxiety and depression. And know that I love you from the bottom of my heart.
... unquote
Anyway, I had to leave it there as I could see she was shutting down, but I hope she gave it some thought.
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Hi Magenta - I think your words to your daughter were spot on, but of course you never know how the JW mindset will respond. You have NOTHING to feel guilty about though! Your daughter's depression is not your fault. It is unfortunate that not having anything to feel guilty about does not mean that you won't feel guilty! :/
Russ.
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Magenta, I wish I could have that conversation with my daughter who is back on meds for anxiety and depression. The leadership know very well what they have done to the flock with their demands to shun df'd ones. They have set themselves up as gatekeepers and did it very efficiently so that no words of wisdom from mothers will reach their daughters or sons ears. No pleas to see grandchildren will be addressed by JW parents. No amount of reasoning from sons and daughters to their parents will reach the stopped up ears. They have used the psychological play book of every cult that has ever existed (which could include parts of the Bible).
No, you said nothing wrong and I'm glad that you at least got the chance to say it. Hopefully your daughter will at least let slip to her psychologist that she is JW and even better, mention you. Hopefully it is a good Dr. That can help her see the disconnects between following the religion and her natural love for her mother. I wish my daughter had not just been handed a prescription but no counseling. The JW organization has SO much to answer for!
From one mother to another ((((Magenta)))
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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you deserve an applause! #24 [-]
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That was absolutely Beautiful!!!!
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Woohoo. Nice one Magenta. I guess the only bit the elders will pay attention to is the 'I want out' bit. I hope they read the rest but kinda think they won't......that's just my experience as an ex elder. Hope they read it and take heed though.
Regards Paul
Read my novel Boomshot (18+)
http://www.amazon.com/Boomshot-Hunt-Killer-Paul-Jackson-ebook/dp/B00VSLG48W/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1428756971&sr=1-1&keywords=boomshot
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
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Magenta I thought your letter was great! It would be nice if it were as simple as riding off into the sunset when leaving the cult. The good news is you did leave now you can enjoy
a life without rules that make no sense. Hopefully the Elders or even one of them read the whole letter and will come to the same conclusion one day.
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Magenta, I saved your letter in my private documents file. It was so very well written, so fully supported, and clear. I have hopes to need to access it someday ( for my husband of course)
One thing to remember, we all need to remember. is that it is impossible for ANY controlling organization to survive is there are not very good aspects to it. There HAS to be a reason for people to want to join, and want to stay "in". Those who feel they are saved from an unlawful or addictive, or abusive life, might feel a great deal of comfort with the rigidity of the JW. Those with severe ADD or even aspbergers spectrum, feel a comfort with rigid rules and time schedules ( think military) . Born in children feel a connection, and so many when highly stressed will return to childhood habits and surroundings, even when it can make things worse for them.
None of these good things the JW do, or how many good people are in the organization, are enough to remain in such a destructive organization. This is why such destructive organizations are so dangerous.
Other organizations ( even the military) can meet these needs for those in need. It is the destructive, dangerous ones that must be made public with the dangers, to try to keep new ones from joining this mind controlled cult, and to try to help those still in, but still have enough of a conscious brain to actually think about what is going on.
To use Rutherford's own words "Advertize, Advertize Advertize."
It is the one weapon that can eventually bring the society to it's knees.
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Thank you everyone... This forum really is a lifeline. Even when I don't feel up to posting, I come in here to read and relate to people who are going through the various stages of J-dub madness.
Well, the announcement was made at my ex-congregation, so now the speculation can begin. Did she jump, or was she pushed? Was it sex, drugs, rock'n'roll?
In a way, I regret sending the letter. I think, in a way, it gave them more power over me. At the time, I was all --- I'll tell them "screw you I quit" --- but in hindsight, it doesn't matter to them and it has made things difficult for my daughter and son-in-law.
My son is proud of the stand I took, but he's in a city far away and my daughter is right here with me. Although, she hasn't changed toward me, and neither has my sil, I feel odd about it. Almost apologetic. And I have to make a monumental effort not to come across that way. We don't talk about it at all, but it remains the proverbial elephant in the room.
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((Magenta)) - YOU HAVE NOTHING TO FEEL BAD ABOUT! Yeah, I know, that doesn't mean you don't. Actually, the fact that your daughter's attitude toward you does not seem to have changed is amazing. It is highly unusual for a JW family member to treat you like a family member after you are officially labelled the as the antichrist. Take heart in the fact that there is still some humanity in your daughter and SIL. The elephant in the room is THEIRS, not yours. My dad and in-laws will no longer associate with me because the congregation deems me to have disassociated myself (even though I didn't). My FIL is not even baptised, just 'studying', but is still following the JW rules. The fact that your family members have not unquestioningly towed the line means that there is hope for them yet. And you're great. So there.
Free e-Book: Jehovah's Witnesses - Reasons for Leaving (and for not joining).
Russ.
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What a pathetic and diseased cult. I don't know that I would have taken the time to write such a thorough letter (kudos to you M for doing so). I probably would have just told them to f**k off.
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sdelsolray wrote:
What a pathetic and diseased cult. I don't know that I would have taken the time to write such a thorough letter (kudos to you M for doing so). I probably would have just told them to f**k off.
Lol -- that certainly would have been less time consuming smiley: happy
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maksutov wrote:
((Magenta)) - YOU HAVE NOTHING TO FEEL BAD ABOUT! Yeah, I know, that doesn't mean you don't. Actually, the fact that your daughter's attitude toward you does not seem to have changed is amazing. It is highly unusual for a JW family member to treat you like a family member after you are officially labelled the as the antichrist. Take heart in the fact that there is still some humanity in your daughter and SIL. The elephant in the room is THEIRS, not yours. My dad and in-laws will no longer associate with me because the congregation deems me to have disassociated myself (even though I didn't). My FIL is not even baptised, just 'studying', but is still following the JW rules. The fact that your family members have not unquestioningly towed the line means that there is hope for them yet. And you're great. So there.
I'm so sorry for what you are going through with your family. Hopefully they will see the light --- sooner than later.
When I was shunning my son for a time (to my immense shame now) I was given such a lot of "loving" support from the congregation for doing the "right thing" despite how hard it was. I think some JWs develop a sort of martyr syndrome for which they are rewarded with extra attention.
It never sat well with me. Why are these people commending me for causing my son pain? Do I really want to gain Jehovah's favor by hurting someone so dear to me? - that's just really sick and twisted.
My single biggest regret in life by far is that I shunned my son. That is just inexcusable. Fortunately for me, he understands as he has been there, and he forgives me. We have a wonderful relationship now for which I am so incredibly grateful. Sadly, his sister still shuns him, but he accepts that for what it is - programmed thinking.
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American Actress on being raised in Scientology
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American Actress on being raised in Scientology
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The similarity of the JWs to other cult-like groups was one of the things that made me admit that the JW religion is a cult.
If L Ron Hubbard was a smart man he would have emphasized Jesus more his teachings.
Then he could to run a high-control group while being easily accepted as a Christian religion (probably no shaky status in Germany, for example).
I stumbled on this interview with Leah Remini about her experience leaving Scientology and though I'd share.
It reminded me that there is a wider group of people that share experiences like ours even if the details differ.
The whole thing is here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/18/leah-remini-scientology_n_7293434.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592
But I'll pick out a few quotes that struck me (which is most of it...lol) :
For more than 30 years, actress Leah Remini was a devout member of the Church of Scientology, the controversial organization characterized as a religion and created by science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard. Though some high-profile Scientologists made the decision to join the church during their adulthood, Remini had little choice in the matter, as she tells "Oprah: Where Are They Now?" in the above video.
"My mother was in Scientology my whole life. Most people don't know that we were raised in it -- I didn't decide to get into it," Remini clarifies. "I was brought into it by my mom."
"I don't think people know the amount of dedication it takes to be in this organization," she says. "I mean, it was every day, three-and-a-half hours minimum, seven days a week."
The impact of this sacrifice was never more clear than during one particular moment with her daughter. Remini was reading Scientology coursework -- part of the organization's "betterment courses" -- when she looked up and saw something that made her question the priorities she'd lived by for so long.
"I was on course one day. I was at one of these hotels in Florida, and I saw my daughter swimming for the first time, while I'm... reading this thing. A tear came down my face," Remini says. "I was like, 'What am I doing?' The moment hit me that I was now doing the same thing to my daughter that my mother [had conveyed] to me, that what she was doing was more important."
In July of 2013, Remini and her family made the extremely difficult decision to leave the Church of Scientology, a decision that she admits she still struggles with today.
"It's not just something you get over. It's people and a lifestyle you've known all your life," she says. "It formed who I am, good and bad; it formed the way I think, good and bad. So, there's a lot of pain connected to it... It's still coming to me."
Even a brief moment on the street can cause that pain and emotion to resurface. "I saw my goddaughter in the street and my instinct was to run to her. Her mom turned her back to me," Remini says.
"I'm learning there's a new world out here," she says. "There shouldn't be any kind of judgment towards somebody who has a belief system that is not yours."
Cult, cult, cult just like Jehovah's Witnesses with similar effects on ex-members.
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
status offlineBeachLady
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The first time I ever read about Scientology, I though exactly the same thing. It made me sick to my stomach to see the similarities between the behaviors of Scientologists and JW's. In fact, it made it plain to me, for the first time, that JW's are a cult. Unfortunately, half of my family is still in this cult. I've tried to talk to them, but now we are reduced to niceties, when/if we do talk.
If you want to be happy, be. ~Leo Tolstoy
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Auth - I watched that interview.
The only reason for doing such was making comparisons between them and the JW. Then, it became logical to me - that although they are rich and famous doesn't mean they don't have issues to deal with as we are all doing.
Doing research into different religions - it's all interesting.
Hell, I might even find how to send a letter to that actress and encourage her to stay strong.
It's so important when people do speak out...
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I remember how cheated I used to feel when I was a kid, watching other kids doing things other than field service and meetings with their parents. I admire Leah Remini for putting her child first, before the demands of a tyrant religion. I wish my mother had done the same.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Hi Beach Lady - recovery is interesting. I'm not even going to offer an apologize any longer for my family that chooses staying with a cult like minded religion.
Have you noticed how we that chose leaving - we are apparently the bad guys? And god forbid we do research!
Yes, Sj - it would have been a kind thing for when as a child; just enjoy childhood. It didn't that way for us.
It's about how IMO, we continue doing our research. We do recover [eventually]and share with others. No one here is more important then any one else. We all try helping each other with sharing our experience, strength and hope.
I'm preparing for sharing a letter with someone that is in prison... so I'll have lots of stories for sharing with him. Apparently we are his only contact in the outside world but I also know to be careful.
It's been a nutty week dealing with others- grateful that our life is blessed. Take care and be safe. John/Lin
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Yes, Scientology is definitely a cult. I live in Los Angeles so I see the big building of Scientology in Hollywood whenever I happen to drive down that particular street. Back in the 1990's a friend of mine got a job working
with Scientology. I remember when she told me she was going to apply for the job...I said..."You do know they are a cult." She laughed and told me not to worry. She got the job there and worked there for about
six months until she realized that what she was doing wasn't a good thing.
They do seem to target the rich mostly. Out of all the cults that I have read about they seem to really go after major donations. And they also seem to give ex-members who try to speak out a super hard time, like
launching lawsuits against them. I watched an HBO documentary about one month ago called "Going Clear," it is about Scientology. In one article about that documentary on Scientology it says they used about 160 lawyers
to check things inthe movie before airing it. That's a LOT of lawyers.
The membership of Scientology is smaller than Jehovah's witnesses....let's hope it stays small. We don't need cults growing in size.
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offlinemaksutov
Reasons for Leaving
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I finally got my book finished. It is available as a free eBook here: http://www.bit.ly/reasons-for-leaving
I'm sure the contents are familiar territory to most people here, but hopefully it will be of some use to those who are either thinking about joining or thinking about leaving.
Russ.
Last Edited By: maksutov 5 days ago. Edited 1 time.
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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Russ, I am going to download it but just wanted to say, Love the cover art! So appropriate for religion in general and the addiction current jw's have for their beloved religion. Thank you for posting the link.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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Thanks! I'll have a look through.
status offlineCacky
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I read it. It was great!
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Thanks Russ .... I have downloaded the PDF version and will read it soon. I've already got to page 20 ...... I could have written it myself as you have added a lot of my thoughts in there! I am pleased that you're not trying to make money from it ... as so many who add links to their books do. A non-for-profit helpful guide .......
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinesolitaire
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Thank you so much for sharing this Russ!! I have downloaded it, and look forward to reading it smiley: smile xx
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlineHumbleLove
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I just got finished reading your book and there was a lot I loved about it.
You start out with "Questions? Comments? Corrections? Hate mail?"
I really like the way you are encouraging people in making comments. The Table of Contents and the order of subjects were a smooth reading. The whole thing was great!
There were some parts that really stuck out for me:
Watchtower Publication:
"Is this Life All there is?" (1974) page 46
"....really, would you want to be associated with a religion that has not been honest with you?" (Watchtower 1974, page 46)
No, I would not. (your words)
I found that to basically sum up your book. I thought it was pure genius that you used a Watchtower quote to do that!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you discussing where Shunning came from and came up with this:
"Someone who smokes a cigarette can hardly be regarded as the antichrist"
I had a chuckle at that since smoking can't be regarded that way.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you said this:
"there is little that the average jw fears more than encountering an apostate."
I had a question for you, If a JW came to my door and I said "I am an apostate.....Would that send them running for the hills or would they just try harder to convert me?"
Right now I am planting seeds of doubt in JW's every chance that I get. I don't want them running for the hills, but I definitely want to encourage them to talk to me more.
I have found that when asking some difficult questions that don't get answering...I shift and say "how is the weather today...or some Non-JW subject."
I am asking you that question because since the average JW really do fear apostates....wouldn't they just want to convert them? Or do they just think there is no hope for the apostate?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Baptism:
The wording on the two questions has been changed. My question is when do people ponder the Baptism questions? Do they say ok I plan to get Baptized within a month and have a month to ponder those questions? Or is it on the day of the Baptism you are handed the two questions and have to decide in a matter of minutes?
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I was sorry to hear that you went through drama about giving your little girl a Christmas present. You are a good Dad to let your little girl enjoy the holiday even though you, yourself aren't that much into it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your Warning about how difficult it's going to be to get a true believer of JW to change their mind. I agree someone who is having doubts would have more of an open mind. It would be difficult to figure out who was having doubts.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
There are many more things that I loved about your book. I just want to say I think you did a great job researching your subject. The one running theme through your book that I loved the most was the fact you encourage the reader to do research. You even make it easy for the reader to want to do research by suggestion good books and ways to go about it.
Let's hope this book works to help prevent someone in joining, and helps to open someone's eyes in leaving.
Last Edited By: HumbleLove Mar 15 15 1:46 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlinemaksutov
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Thanks everyone.
whytebyrd2 wrote:
just wanted to say, Love the cover art! So appropriate for religion in general and the addiction current jw's have for their beloved religion.
Thanks, yes, I took that photo a couple of years ago just because I liked the look of the poppies. When searching through my pics for a cover photo it seemed appropriate not only for being pretty, but also having dual symbolism: opiates, and mourning (the waste of so many years of my life, and the fact that I am still losing family members to the JWs).
Cacky wrote:
I read it. It was great!
Wow, that was quick! I wasn't expecting anyone to read the whole thing in one go, lol.
HumbleLove wrote:
If a JW came to my door and I said "I am an apostate.....Would that send them running for the hills or would they just try harder to convert me?"
I think the vast majority would break out into a sweat, experience palpitations and giddiness, then excuse themselves very quickly and leave. There are outliers who would not be fazed and who would just be happy that someone is talking to them, but they would be the exception.
HumbleLove wrote:
when do people ponder the Baptism questions?
The questions are asked publicly immediately before the candidates get baptised. Baptism candidates usually sit at the front of the assembly hall for the baptsim talk, then after the talk they are invited to stand and answer the two questions in a loud voice for the audience to hear (it is part of the ceremony). Then they go off and get changed and dunked. So people know what the questions are well in advance, but don't actually answer them until the day. There is another set of baptism questions though which are not answered publicly (about 100 of them) - the candidate goes through them with two or three elders over several sessions a few months before the baptism, and the elders then have to decide whether the candidate 'qualifies' for baptism. Those questions are about making sure the candidate understand the basic doctrines and really believes the organisation is God's channel of communication.
Russ.
status offlineCacky
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Your not an apostate, Humble, because you've never been a jw. If you said you were one, they'd leave immediately, at least the majority of them would. And elder or one who thinks they have superior knowledge might try to get you into a conversation about why you left, etc. But the average stance is to not have anything to do with apostates. It's in all their literature.
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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I have read the beginning chapters but am not as fast a reader as Cacky and shall read it over the next few days. I printed it out into a very nifty little 243 page booklet.
I decided that this is the perfect size to keep on hand for easy reference. You did a fantastic job Russ! Thank you!!!
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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“Even if it’s not the truth, it’s still the best way of life” is a common
motto among JWs. This is a thought stopper (a type of logical fallacy,
which I will come to later), used to justify sticking with the faith despite
the fact that it has some obvious flaws. But is it true?....
That is what kept me with it. Maybe a after time it became : Its the way I know.
status offlineGoingForth
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I read all the book and find it very good. I especially liked the part on critical thinking.
The one on "thought stopping clichés" is so true of the WTS: “They’re just imperfect men (when excusing the errors and injustices committed by those in charge)." That is one that did stop me from "thinking" and I saw so many wrongs committed and nothing being done about it. That cliché unfortunately stopped me for far too long.
The one on the "Straw man" is one that is often used too: "Where a person misrepresents their opponent’s argument, then argues against their made-up, inaccurate version of it." The WT so often misquoted or partly quoted or just simply misrepresented the whole argument of the other one.
Argumentum Verbosium: "Also known as Proof by Intimidation, or Proof by Verbosity. It refers to an argument that is so complex, long-winded, full of jargon, or poorly presented that you are obliged to accept it, simply to avoid having to unravel the minute details." The past president Fred Franz fits that so much. (Ray Franz's uncle) Many Watchtowers were the same--it was simply hard to follow and the final conclusion one made for oneself is to think "because I cannot understand it, it must be right after all HE knows so much more."
All the items under "Critical Thinking" are worth going over many times.
Thanks Maksutov. It is commendable that you are doing this free of charge. You may want to put at least a small fee at some time, at least to cover your own expenses. Although you may reach many more people by offering it for free.
“The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen nor even touched—
They must be felt with the heart.”
Helen Keller
status offlineCacky
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I forgot to thank you for this. It was good of you to do that research and put it out there for others.
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Thank YOU for all your comments. Someone pointed out that celebrating a birthday is not explicitly listed as a disfellowshipping offense in the Elder's handbook. I checked, and that is true - there is anecdotal evidence that some people have been disfellowshipped for birthday celebration, but the Elder's book only lists religious holidays, not birthdays. So I have removed references to it being a disfellowshipping offense now. I'm surprised I didn't already know that!
Russ.
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Your book was very well written and very well researched. I tell you when I first learned that JW's weren't allowed to celebrate their birthdays I knew that one thing alone would ensure that's a religion I would never consider.
There is a lot of information in the Elder's handbook and when writing a book such as the wonderful one you have written....it's easy to miss a minor detail. This is why I thought it was very good of you, to start your book out by being open to Comments/Corrections etc.
I have come to the conclusion based upon yours and Cacky's comments about what I asked about apostates in general. It's NOT a good idea for me in any shape or form to discuss apostates or even say the word 'apostate' that would probably send any JW I am talking to running for the hills. I am not an apostate but I am probably super worldly to the average JW.
Thank you for answering all my questions. :)
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You can't know everything Russ and to be honest ..... if a jdub was found to be celebrating birthdays you can bet your bottom dollar that the local group of elders would most certainly disfellowship them for apostasy at worst ... or conjure up some other reason for getting rid of them.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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AndriaSyxx wrote:
You can't know everything Russ and to be honest ..... if a jdub was found to be celebrating birthdays you can bet your bottom dollar that the local group of elders would most certainly disfellowship them for apostasy at worst ... or conjure up some other reason for getting rid of them.There seem to be at least some "unwritten rules". It wasn't until I became an unbaptized publisher that I became aware of the beard thing. Then there are things that are actively discouraged yet aren't really "offenses", per se. An example of that is "higher education" as they call it. It's a religion of so many restrictions who can really keep up?
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Lots of 'local needs' rules and regs I think you'll find Auth. The beard thing has been around for quite a while and yet in some halls there are men with beards roaming freely.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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I think the harshness of disfellowshipping can make us neglect some of the other rules that are completely unfair and pharisaical but that don't result in disfellowshipping (like marrying an unbeliever [or even attending such a wedding], having a tattoo, or 'roaming freely with a beard' [lol]). There is also the fact that the disfellowshipping offenses are not explicitly listed anywhere except the Elder's handbook, so publishers who commit to the religion don't even know exactly what they are committing to. Little wonder people get confused.
Russ.
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I was extremely confused during my first two weeks of reading about the JW beliefs. I went to Yahoo Answers....JW.org....the list just goes on and on...and got to this website because I stumbled across a website that suggested going to this website. The description of this particular forum said there was lots of knowledgeable people here. And there truly is.
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Thanks Maksutov,
Gosh, you've really done your homework!
I've just downloaded the PDF format and have just skimmed through it.
What I've read so far is very good!
http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/179443/working_mom.html
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status offlineAndriaSyxx
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I still remember my former jdub friend exhorting me NOT to talk freely about my lack of faith as she wanted me to be her bridesmaid ... and I couldn't be one if I wasn't making noises about getting baptised. I still said nothing about the baptismal pond adventure but she must have ... as I was 'congratulated' by one of the local elders on my 'decision to dedicate my life to Jehovah' ..... and in the background she was giving me the evil eye of not to say anything. I just smiled and went along with it. I was gone a few months later!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinepunkofnice
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Sounds good my man. Sadly, I can't download it onto my 'puter here at work and I am without a proper 'puter at home too. Sounds jolly g though. good on ya.
Regards Paul
Read my novel Boomshot (18+)
http://www.amazon.com/Boomshot-Hunt-Killer-Paul-Jackson-ebook/dp/B00VSLG48W/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1428756971&sr=1-1&keywords=boomshot
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
status offlinesg75
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Downloaded your book and can't wait to read it.
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Now available in paperback! At cost price (no profit being made from the book):
UK: amazon.co.uk/dp/1511627883/
US: amazon.com/dp/1511627883/
Free e-Book: Jehovah's Witnesses - Reasons for Leaving (and for not joining).
Russ.
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I downloaded your book onto my Nook. Very well-written. The points you make are clear and logical, easy for people who aren't familiar with Witnesses to follow.
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Thanks! :)
Free e-Book: Jehovah's Witnesses - Reasons for Leaving (and for not joining).
Russ.
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I have shared your book with some non-JW people and they learned a lot...same as me. I am glad you took time out to write your book :).
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Thanks HL.
Free e-Book: Jehovah's Witnesses - Reasons for Leaving (and for not joining).
Russ.
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Thanks for sharing this Russ.
I will be sure to check it out soon.
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Russ, hubby downloaded it for me to read. Thank you for making that possible by posting it on PDF...or whatever it's called.
It's not about the money, it's for sharing our experience, strength and hope so that others might not being taken in by a filthy lying "religion" that apparently their entire aim is for having control.
I've yet to catch up with Uncle Punkie and others - it's my busy time of year. And, finding a sense of relief, we all take time out from stress.
Thank you again for sharing. Lin
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Deborah Frances White Rolls the Dice
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offlinenevermind
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05r3srd
Comedian Deborah Frances White tells the true story of her teenager years as a Jehovahs Witness
Absolute gold!! If you can't listen to this on the BBC website go through a UK proxy if you're abroad!
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I listened to it and yes, it is gold! Thing is, some of her stories of being a JW teenager may have been just funny to the non jdub listener but in reality they were anything but. I remember being in service with my teenage friends, kids out knocking on strangers doors, and running into some questionable characters. I was, however, savvy enough not to go into those homes. All in all she nailed the lifestyle very well!
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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Thanks Nm, enjoyed that.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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She also appears on the latest JW Podcast (it is quite long though and I haven't listened to it all yet): http://www.jwpodcast.org/2015/05/10/s01e13-jehovahs-divas/
Free e-Book: Jehovah's Witnesses - Reasons for Leaving (and for not joining).
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Another one dies from no blood, family outraged.
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Another one dies from no blood, family outraged.
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Thanks for posting that newsclip, Cacky. I hope that the family does take legal action.
Interestingly, I had the exact same surgery as the JW woman in the video. I also hemorrhaged. But, I got a blood transfusion (3 bags) and lived. I remember coming out of surgery and being so grateful when I looked up and saw the blood hanging on the IV pole. I also remember that my JW sister came to see me when I had that bag of blood hanging beside my bed, dripping life into me. She shuddered and made a face of disgust when she saw the blood. She saw the blood as 'unclean'. I saw the blood as giving me life and the chance to be a mother to my little girl that needed me.
My sister would have rather seen me die.
Funny thing is, my sister needed the same surgery as me several years ago. The doctors wouldn't operate on her because of her blood refusal. I don't know if she ever got the surgery done - I don't talk to her.
“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”
- Susan B. Anthony
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 Apr 8 15 7:13 AM. Edited 1 times.
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Wow! JWs are certainly getting some press lately. Although they undoubtedly consider it bad press I'm thinking it's about time.
Thanks for posting that Cathy and so sorry for the husband, children and familiy of the JW woman. Another blood sacrifice to the ancient Semitic war God.
Would it be different if a group did it for Zeus? Same difference to me.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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Zeus an interesting concept, god of sky and thunder. Yes, it's all the same difference. The JW's are definitely getting more press lately. It's all about public awareness it fits a dual purpose. It's in the hopes that someone who is thinking of joining...will re-think it.
It's also in the hopes that someone who is thinking about leaving might actually find the courage/reason to leave. It is very sad when somebody refuses medical treatment that could save their lives. I hope somebody watches this and it helps them see that refusing
blood transfusion isn't a good thing.
status offline2014myyearoflight
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How many is too many to sacrifice on the altar? How many will it take for them to see the error? I haven't been affected personally by this issue but if I lost someone due to it I think my blood would boil with outrage.
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If I lost someone due to this, I would definitely get a lawsuit, even if it would come to nothing. I'd try to fight.
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Yes, it's always important to fight for what is right. And in this case a lifesaving blood transfusion.
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We just keep hearing about these poor witnesses dying from not taking blood. I honestly don't know how the members of the gb can sleep at night knowing their policies are causing these deaths!
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This "no blood" thing that the JW religion promotes is infantile, irrational and myopic, among other things.
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I suspect, Cacky, that the GB sleep fine at night. I really don't think the GB see the R and F as PEOPLE; I think they see them as mindless sheep they can do whatever they want with. And, like mindless sheep, the R anf F do as the almighty GB tell them. Once you see someone as a PERSON, with a family and friends, hopes and dreams, its a lot harder to treat them as if they don't matter.
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Apostasy Trial - Undercover spycam part 1
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offlineJoe Magarac
Apostasy Trial - Undercover spycam part 1
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Starting point for a bunch of them.
Let that sink it a bit.
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Wow! powerful stuff! Is the rest of the 'inquisition' out yet??
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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Wow is right! All I can think while listening to the elders defense of the organization is that they are defending a few pixels and failing to see the whole picture. Going back time and again to the 'fall back' argument that 'they are just men' is not good enough. These 'men' be they from an elder body or from the governing body, especially the GB, demand loyalty. Loyalty to the GB is non-negotiable. Also, if they change their stance over and over but later fail to address the adverse effects on the lives they are influencing that is a huge problem. That is exactly the problem the Catholic Church has and JWs are no different.
I'm hoping that the next installment slams hard on the impact to families for members who in good conscience can no longer remain loyal to this MAN made organization or at least to some of it's instructions like shunning.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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A prime example of how the JW elders suffer from deluded convictions. And delusions of grandeur - the JW elders believe that saying 'Jehovah' is a magical tool that allows them to deny reality and that belief in 'Jehovah' negates them from any logical or moral thinking that will crack their delusion.
It is ironic that the example of the ex-Catholic mirrors the experience of the person who is being the subject of their 'judicial inquiry'. I laughed when the elder said that he learned more about Catholicism after he left than he knew while still a Catholic. Sound familiar? smiley: laugh
The JW elders cannot see the forest for the trees.
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I was surprised when one elder rattled off four dates associated with false prophecies including 1874 and 1975. It indicated that he knew of those things but chose to put them out of his mind because "Jehovah exists".
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
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And they admit that they know that issues are being "swept under the rug" but keep emphasizing that it is MAN who is doing this, as though that makes the "rug-sweeping" an invalid point and of no consequence. Don't they always brag about the "cleanliness" of the organization? That's because all the dirt is hidden under the carpet...Oh no
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Thanks for sharing, Joe. That was a jaw dropper. Sounds like they ok with things being covered up. Yet they're the first to point fingers at other religious groups for 'sweeping things under the rug'.
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I just got finished watching Part 2. I think the part that got to me the most...was "We could spend weeks listening to you blabber on.....I don't think you like this organization....Do you love this organization?" It's the only thing the Elders seemed to care about.
They expect people to just love the organization no matter what is going on.
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I haven't listened to the second part yet, but you are right Humble, loyalty to the organization is a must in their organization.
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Just listened to that second part. The older elder sounds like he is mentally the same JW as he was 40, 50 years ago, JW2.0. He doesn't seem to see JW4.0. None of them are getting the point that the changes in th organization constitute an organizational apostacy. They are all just blindly following this man made organization and believing it's from God because it says it's from God. Then there's the change in baptism questions and they acknowledge that it is for legal purposes...wow, just mind blowing! They are all loyally serving a corporate religious entity and calling it the most spiritual and correct way to worship God! What a bunch of blind and brainwashed men. I could 'blabber' on as well but I'd be preaching to the choir.
I assume there will be a final installment and the loss of family and friends will come up.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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Here are the 3rd and 4th. They get better and better.
“The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen nor even touched—
They must be felt with the heart.”
Helen Keller
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I could not have sat through something like that and not lost my cool. Issac deserves kudos for that although maybe in the 4th video he'll lose it...he will have earned the right! My thinking is that if you no longer believe that the Bible, as it has come down to us, is correct or inspired and that the God of the Bible is just a Bronze Age Semitic deity then absolutely don't bother engaging with these men. There were so many illogical arguments made and no proof except to bring in the magical mythical being...it's as pointless as trying to reason with a fundy Islamist who calls upon Allah or the Koran or any other group that clings to ancient tribal religious ideals. I wish Isaac the very best and may he prove that elders dire predictions about him false by living not just well but VERY well.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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I just got finished watching the third video and it's incredible that Isaac didn't get irritated. I definitely would have been yelling back at some point if that was me. At the time when Isaac was saying "if anyone discovers anything we're automatically labelled an apostate "mentally diseased" and he went on to say "I'm not crazy." The Elder response of "We wouldn't meet with you if that's how we felt."
If everything was fine then they wouldn't be meeting with Isaac now would they?? He is trying hard to reason with them...and he is keeping his cool. I know if that were me...I probably would have lost my cool.
I agree with you whytebyrd that I hope he lives VERY well! He is a brave guy for taking this video. It's amazing none of them have noticed the camera yet.
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I think this is part 3 of Isaac's video's
"Beware of the man whose God is in the skies."
- George Bernard Shaw
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Yes, I am still waiting for part four to come out. I have been checking youtube.com but so far I haven't seen it. I have watched a few other videos that are on Judicial Hearings while waiting for Part four.
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Please feel free to use this area to post any happy events occuring either in your own life or elsewhere. Any positive or uplifting thoughts are welcome.
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Re: Today is a go...
HumbleLove
A day ago
Health, Nutrition, and Self-Improvement
Here is a place to discuss anything related to overall health, nutrition, recipies, and self-improvement of any kind. Any aspect of physical, emotional, social, financial or general quality of life is included.
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Re: Bucket List -...
HumbleLove
May 7 15 11:26 PM
General Non-Religious Topic Board
A place to talk about any Non-Religious topics that don't fall into specific categories.
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Re: Punkie on the...
HumbleLove
15 hours ago
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Watchtower and Jehovah's Witnesses Discussion Area
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A place for consideration of the various teachings, beliefs, and theology of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Feel free to post about any past or present beliefs or teachings of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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Re: what are they...
sg75
31 minutes ago
Scandals, Coverups, and JW Controversy
For those interested in posting about any Jehovah's Witnesses related Controversy and/or various issues, scandals, and coverups that the Watchtower potentially faces.
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Re: Aw let the gu...
HumbleLove
Apr 28 15 11:07 PM
Jehovah's Witnesses in the News
Any news related items or articles that are related to the Jehovah's Witnesses or Watchtower are welcomed to be shared here.
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Re: Another one d...
sg75
3 days ago
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Controversy
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Any controversial topics are open for discussion and debate here on a wide variety of areas including science, society, politics, religion, ethics, media, law, the environment, culture, etc..
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Re: An experiment...
HumbleLove
May 5 15 1:28 AM
Science and Technology Board
A place to discuss any items pertaining to science and technology. Feel free to discuss current trends or past events in either area.
178 1869
Re: Death to mosq...
HumbleLove
May 7 15 2:33 AM
Anger Management
If something has got you upset, here is a place to do some venting.
575 8678
Re: Some thoughts...
Linda.cavymadness76263
3 days ago
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Entertainment
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1214 8825
Re: Songs you lik...
Gurgi
A day ago
Humor Board
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1739 9398
Re: Old Butch
cangie
May 7 15 10:36 AM
Creativity Corner
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590 3868
Re: Punk's novel
punkofnice
Apr 26 15 12:38 PM
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Re: For Animal Lo...
whytebyrd2
6 hours ago
MBA Forum
Sex and Relationships Board-- Discussion Only-- membership by approval area
Healthy discussion-only area. A place to discuss issues generally surpressed by the JW organization. Any registered member wishing access that has at least 20 posts on the site, please click on the board link and fill in the requested information. It is a membership by approval area, and users with 20 posts or more are welcome to apply.
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MBA Forum
Free and Clear Board-- Discussion for long-term members--- membership by approval area
A private and general discussion board for long-time members on any topic. Anyone having at least 100 posts can request access by clicking on the board link and filling in the requested information. It is a membership by approval area. Any member who fills in a request that does have 100 posts will have their request for access reviewed within approximately 1 week for potential approval.
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Ex-JW Forum Information and Links
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Re: DONATION 2015!!
Locutus
Mar 17 15 8:44 PM
Technical Help and Suggestion Box
Any Technical Help questions, please post here to get resolved along with any suggestions you may have for the site.
234 1952
Re: Photobucket
HumbleLove
Apr 19 15 11:35 AM
Jehovah's Witnesses Organization---Resource Links
Resources pertaining to the Jehovah's Witnesses Organization and recovery from it.
22 29
jw facts website...
Ronnie45
May 19 14 6:35 PM
Ex-JW Meetup Board
Any Ex-Jehovah's Witness meetup location information, feedback, or anything else pertaining to meetups, please post them here. If you are an Ex-JW looking for other Ex-Jehovah's Witnesses, feel free to post it here as well.
232 2160
Anyone from Uk?
Missmarvel
5 days ago
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