Saturday, May 23, 2015
JWSurvey articles
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Ellen Strauser says:
April 11, 2015 at 1:36 pm
I am so sorry to hear that this is taking place. I hope you and your wife can take some comfort in knowing that there are many of us out here who deeply appreciate your work.
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Dblaron42 says:
April 11, 2015 at 1:44 pm
You always do a great job Lloyd. I am sorry to hear that you are being attacked with such hostility… Lots of people from Murica are idiots. Don’t let them get you down. This always picks me up.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nxcJW6bs5os
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Dblaron42 says:
April 11, 2015 at 1:45 pm
And ditto. Lots who appreciate your work. Thank you!
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Sherri says:
April 11, 2015 at 1:50 pm
So very sorry that you’ve found yourself in the position of having to plead for courtesy and understanding, or even just simple human kindness and decent manners. No one should have to put up with such abuse as you and your family have faced. While our individual beliefs don’t always dovetail (what a boring world THAT would be) I think the work you’ve undertaken over the past couple of years has been extremely valuable — necessary! — and it would be a horrible shame if it were derailed by these idiots. Your material is accessible and interesting, and I’ve no doubt that many have been helped and that many, many more will be in the future. Please keep the faith
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Robert Crompton says:
April 11, 2015 at 1:51 pm
It is sad indeed that this is happening to you and Dijana. I trust you realise there are very many people out here who support you in your sterling efforts to increase awareness about the true nature of the WTS.
When people leave authoritarian movements like the WT they will very often retain some or even much of what they have “learned” in that movement, and in many cases it can take a very long time for people to become completely free of all the harmful attitudes and misguided beliefs. So I tend to regard this deplorable situation which you are facing as an example of people giving free rein to the sort of nastiness which is engendered by involvement with the WT.
I hope you will be able to weather this storm and ultimately draw strength from it. Feel free to PM/Skype any time for a chat or a rant. Strength to you, Lloyd.
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JJ says:
April 11, 2015 at 1:52 pm
Hey Cedars, I feel horrible that you’ve been treated poorly.
Like you, I’ve went into an Agnostic/Atheisitc belief system (or more accurately, a lack of a belief system!). I always knew that IF I ever left the JW’s then I wouldn’t/couldn’t believe in another crazy religion. It would be like jumping out of Am Way and into Arbonne, Herbalife, Melaluka or someother multilevel marketing scam. No way, I learned my lesson.
I always thought that being an Atheisit was like being Switzerland; everyone would respect your neutrality and your obvious reasoning and intellectual ability. Quite the opposite!!! One female comedian from the U.S. put in succently. She said that when she told her friends and family that she was an atheist it was like telling them that she just had anal sex with Satan!
Kim and Mike seem like complete morons to me! You should be happy that they don’t like you! Something would be wrong if they did!!! (Kim seems like she wears the pants in the union and she reminds me of my mother-in-law; a slack jawed, cross eyed, inbred, drooling country hick. But God loves ‘em! Good thing too, because nobody else does!).
When people leave the Jehovah’s Witness organization the official party line is that they couldn’t take the discipline, they wanted more authority or prominence or that they had they own desires to lead people. Although that is not nearly true of everyone IT IS TRUE OF SOME. You just found those people.
Forget them! You are doing a great job and I, along with many of my friends, are totally in awe of your intelligence and how you can put our thoughts and feelings into words.
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Jerome says:
April 11, 2015 at 1:53 pm
Reading this made me so sad. I had be aware of some of the instances of “anti-Cedars” happening on FB, but I hadn’t know how bad it had become.
Warm thoughts to you and your family John. Please rest assured that your continued activism is not only needed but appreciated by those with earnest intentions.
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Mary Strauser says:
April 11, 2015 at 1:57 pm
This is a sad situation when someone criticizes someone whose work is done solely for the good of others.
You were criticized when you were anonymous for keeping your true identity private, you came out and have opened yourself up to peril. There is no pleasing some people.
Keep family and home safe.
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XXbaptisedtwiceJW says:
April 11, 2015 at 1:57 pm
I agree with Ellen& D-guy many of us x s really appreciate your generic disapproval of organized religion& especially the harmful cult type,and really understand that making steps to get out can be sticky,worse than gum on your shoes….so many thanx
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John Baptist says:
April 11, 2015 at 1:59 pm
John sorry to hear about your increasingly difficult situation. The number one priority should be your sanity and in turn your family who doesn’t need this type of stress to begin with. You are welcome anytime to talk with me about what’s happening and maybe some ideas to deal with it or eliminate it. I’m a seasoned 56 yr old person who has been out of this life damaging cult for some time. I truly understand the dynamics and mentality of these ex JW extremists. Hang in there.
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Sherri says:
April 11, 2015 at 2:02 pm
and know how appreciated is your time and effort in exposing the WTS for what they really are.
Not sure why my post split. I don’t think it like the emoticon I put after the word “faith”. :-)
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TJ Curioso says:
April 11, 2015 at 2:03 pm
I am saddened by the situation You’re going through. I hope things calm down and people realize that the fight should be against the Watchtower, not against each other.
To spend energy on attacking you (in a very unfair and unreasonable way), they do not use this same energy against a high-control organization that have hurt so many people.
Keep up the good work and I hope that one day You come to know Portugal with your family and We can spend a good time together!
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Yvette says:
April 11, 2015 at 2:07 pm
My heart goes out to you and your family and I hope the people saying hateful things to you and about you stop!
I have learned a lot from you about the inside of the witness hierarchy that have helped me see these men and the witness organization for what it really is (a self fulfilling cult mentally harming people). I so appreciate all you have done to help me and others wake up to the truth about this harmful organization? I believe in being a kind and companionate person toward all people and in encouraging the good in people. You are a kind and compassionate person I can tell by the way you write and speak. Those who continue to bash others to build themselves up are only displaying their true nature and immaturity. Hopefully they will realize one day that saying hurtful hateful things accomplishes nothing but their own downfall. Please know that I am thankful for all the work you do to research and publish the helpful information you produce. It has given me insights that I would not have known otherwise and this information has helped me heal and helped me explain to others why I cannot return to being a JW. Thank you with all my heart
Sincerely, Yvette
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Susan says:
April 11, 2015 at 2:17 pm
Absolutely disgusting to hear. These people ought to hang their heads in shame. I have tried to reason with some of them, but they are clearly either hellbent on being disgusting, argumentative individuals, or are insane… or both. I love the work you do and will always support you and your family. Just know that the haters, are just a drop in a bucket compared to those who are benefitting and appreciate your work.
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Donald Sanchez says:
April 11, 2015 at 2:22 pm
Lloyd, thank you for your transparency. It’s so disturbing to read about all of the abuse you are getting. As an Evangelical Christian, I just want to say how much I enjoy your posts and appreciate what you do. I’m so sorry to read about impact all this negative vitriolic feedback you receive has had on you and your family. Keep up the great work, and know that you are appreciated. It’s a painful thing to have to deal with, so hang in there! Someone once said, “To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, and be nothing.”
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dontknowwheretogo says:
April 11, 2015 at 2:45 pm
Shocked. I am a big fan of Cedars work and in a few instances I’ve voiced my disapproval of what Cedars has done but only because I don’t think it helps his overall goal.
That aside he does sterling work 99% of the time…my shock in this article is I never knew the half of what is and has been going on.
I’m quite frankly disgusted of what seems to be occurring…I can disagree…even strongly with Cedars but nothing ever justifies what Cedars is going through as mentioned in this blog post.
He simply does not deserve or merit any personal attack whatsoever.
Lloyd, we all appreciate what you do and if you can continue then great but please always put your wife and child first, if this gets too much back out and shut down, your family is more important and there always will be sites like yours to help the exJW community.
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Gail N says:
April 11, 2015 at 3:05 pm
I am so sorry to hear this. I, for one, truly appreciate the work you are doing, and I hope that those who feel the need to attack you step back for a moment and consider what they are doing.
You have provided much good information about the JW religion that informs and aids others to break free from this oppressive group.
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Rowland Nelken says:
April 11, 2015 at 3:25 pm
How much of this hatred is down to envy at your success, not only in getting a following of regular viewers, readers and listeners, but also real evidence of enlightening individuals and rescuing them from the JW cult?
How much of the hatred springs from your agnosticism, and how much from your disapproval of certain types of activism?
How much springs from the haters’ inability to engage constructively with those who have different views on methods and tactics, albeit sharing, apparently, the same ultimate objective?
My JW childhood had the one benefit of enabling me to understand that religion can be cruel and horrible, and hence that ISIS and co., can be genuine religious types, whatever Boris Johnson and Barack Obama may say to the contrary.
I am, though, as baffled as I am appalled by the behaviour of the anti Cedars gang.
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Incenced says:
April 11, 2015 at 3:27 pm
Lloyd
Stop before it gets too much. I will absolutly miss your blogs etc if you stop, but you and yours MUST come first.
This article did more than sadden me, it has alarmed me. To think that you are worrying or your wife is worrying is just not fair. Please take care of you. ((((((((Hugs)))))))))
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John Walsh says:
April 11, 2015 at 3:31 pm
Hi Lloyd,
Checking my emails this morning and am completely taken by surprise that you are being treated in this way, and of course your family are impacted, that’s very sad.
I think any `sound minded’ person who has `Woken Up’ will clearly see your sincerity, and honesty, and I feel you really must recognise these nasty souls for what they are, and not let them succeed in bringing you down.
As for the rest of us former members we have immense gratitude and appreciation for all of your efforts, and the great sacrifices you undoubtedly are making for such a great cause.
With respect I have been to most of the Ex Jdub sites a number of times and have wholeheartedly chosen yours as the place I wish to be at, and for many good reasons.
Hang in there Brother. Kind regards, John
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Pickled brain says:
April 14, 2015 at 9:15 am
Lovely positive comments from everyone!
Lloyd (John) . ALL of The COMMENTS posted so far have Been BEAUTIFUL & SO ENCOURAGING Not just to Lloyd & His Family But to ALL of us who Log on to this Website. There are SO MANY KIND CARING EX-JWs out there Not Full of Hate & Anger.
So Please Keep the Positive Comments coming.
Why shouldn’t you ,Lloyd make some Contributions? out of your hard work & Long Long hours & Emotional Energy that goes into producing this website& You Tube Channel.
When I think of the BILLIONS the Governing Body have got from Real Estate,Wills,Stocks&Shares,etc from JWs who have Died it is Tantamount to BLOOD MONEY??? When Thousands have Died because of not having Vaccinations,Organ Transplants,Blood Transfusions in Emergencies. Let Alone the MISERY of BREAKING up FAMILIES through SHUNNING because of Disagreements over Doctrine or the way the GB has handled Paedophiles? If you pardon the Expression!
As I said before You, Lloyd , Have SAVED MANY LIVES!!! Keep up the good work : THERE ARE MORE WITH US THAN AGAINST US as good old Elijah said !!
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Pickled brain says:
April 16, 2015 at 12:03 am
@Lloyd(John) . What I have noticed Because of your Honesty & Humility in showing us your Feelings & Vulnerability HAS CAUSED People who have NEVER COMMENTED BEFORE to Feel IMPELLED to Comment on this Site to SHOW that YOU Lloyd have CHANGED JWs & Ex-JWs Lives for the better& Keep on giving them the Inner Strength to Fight their INNER FEARS & INSECURITIES Created by 7 American MEN in BROOKLYN who CHOP & CHANGE their Interpretations of Scripture so Frequently it is Frightening!!
Any one who reads this site & hasn’t commented , PLEASE Have the INNER DETERMINATION to Support Lloyd& His Wife& Child!! They as a FAMILY have SACRIFICED SO MUCH in terms of Emotional Time,Energy,Money etc. It must be draining!
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Pickled brain says:
April 17, 2015 at 8:04 am
@Zeebo . With due respect the XJW front is NOT CRUMBLING. Just look at the BEAUTIFUL & HEARTWARMING Comments here in Support of Lloyd(John) We are all STRONGER & FIGHTING the Fine Fight of a Spiritual Warfare to SAVE Hearts & Minds from 7 Controlling AMERICAN MEN.
& the Candace Conti Court Case is a VICTORY because it is has SHOWN how CORRUPT the Inner Workings of a Judicial Committee of 3 Elders& the Abuser facing the Poor Victim who was a Child . The WORLD can SEE HOW DISGUSTING this is !!!
The Victory is For all XJW who have shown how this Filthy the JW Organisation is :
Please read January 15th 2015 Watchtower page 24 paragraph 4:
‘MANY Christians have watched lurid material on the Internet,have been to sexually explicit movies,Stage shows,some have visited strip shows,massage parlours& Nightclubs as well as viewing Pornography. ‘
This is in a STUDY WATCHTOWER which we studied on Sunday a few weeks ago!!
An OPEN ADMISSION that this is RIFE in the JW Organisation Because the words’MANY CHRISTIANS’ meaning JWS !!
Our Children should not be allowed to be ALONE in the Ministry unless a Criminal Record Check is made on each individual!!
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anonymous says:
April 17, 2015 at 4:01 pm
@Pickled Brain, that article is coming right out and saying that viewing pornography, reading erotic literature, or watching lurid material on the internet and watching sexually explicit movies, naked stage shows, and watching sexually explicit television shows, visiting nightclubs and strip shows and getting sensual messages are NOT WRONG because this is how that paragraph starts:
“How is it possible for a Christian to be drawn into immoral conduct: The disastrous path of immorality often starts with the eyes. Jesus explained: “Everyone who keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” (Matt. 5:27, 28: 2 Pet. 2:14) Many Christians who have fallen into wrongdoing have weakened their moral defenses by viewing pornography, reading erotic literature” …and so on.
Those paragraphs under ” Guard Your Heart” is telling the reader that the only wrong doing happens when the person has committed adultery with another person so doing porn and going to strip clubs etc. and all the rest only LEADS TO WRONGDOING. A paragraph like that is telling a man that as long as he doesn’t commit adultery, those other things are not wrong doing.
Tell that to a wife who catches her JW husband going to strip clubs and watching porn on their computer that he hasn’t done any wrongdoing and see if it washes with her.
See if she then thinks this is a “clean” organization when the only “wrongdoing” is only when he actually commits adultery. It’s then that a woman will find out that it’s an “old boys club”. What I am saying is that if a JW claims to be a JW, then he should not be doing those things because that is the impression that the Watchtower wants the world to think. The Watchtower wants the world to think that JW men don’t go to strip clubs and X rated movies and watch porn on television on their computers. But in reality, the JW men are being given a green light for all those things to do but the women are being blindly deceived into thinking that the guy they are marrying wouldn’t do those things but when she catches her husband doing that stuff, nothing happens to him. Her feelings about the matter are dismissed as “not forgiving”. It makes me wonder just how many elders are doing it and thinking to themselves that as long as they don’t actually commit adultery, it’s between them and Jehovah. Who cares about what the wife thinks? After all, it’s not the wife they are sinning against, is it? It’s Jehovah they are sinning against. But according to that paragraph, they aren’t even sinning against Jehovah when they do that stuff.
When a person abuses a child, you can better believe that that person was first addicted to porn. The porn starts small and it takes more and more perverted porn to get the “high” that they first had so the porn gets more and more perverted. That is how child abusers get started down that road.
Pickled brain says:
April 17, 2015 at 7:19 pm
@Anonymous. Your Dead Right about it being a BOYS CLUB !! In Judicial Committees my Father-in- Law who over 40 years of sitting on MANY said ‘If a Brother who Committed Adultery said his wife had NOT Been Providing the Marriage Due(Sexual Intercourse) Then the Elders would take that into consideration & Be More Lenient with him !! In other words it was the wife’s fault why he comitted Adultery??? So my Question is what WEIRD Reasoning do these Elders come up with when a Brother commits Pedophilia ??
THIS ORGANISATION is RUN BY MEN for MEN !!
Gareth says:
April 18, 2015 at 5:32 am
anonymous, I think you’re off the mark here. The WT article nowhere says pornography is not wrongdoing. This doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt the partner (it does), but that’s not WT’s agenda.
I think we agree though, but you highlight it a little differently. The WT’s agenda is loyalty to the organization. This article’s tool towards that end is “Jehovah’s view of marriage”. So the WT is arguing that pornography is disrespecting the marriage bond (which was supposedly instituted by Jehovah). That’s why it follows up in paragraph 8 how to keep learning about Jehovah (through the WT of course! haha).
So the perversion here is not “JW men are given the green light”, or that women are ignored per se, but that pornography hurts the relationship with God by ignoring the WT counsel (basically). It’s all Jehovah wants-this-or-that.
Your “…when she catches him… nothing happens to him” is slightly misleading; I would say that seeing how the wife is hurt by the man’s actions should lead to sorrow and regret and his part. If it doesn’t… well then it’s a problem with this man, not necessarily the WT. Because the counter-side is… would you want the reason for your husband to love you more (or at least act like it because of WT fear) because he was restricted or even publicly humiliated in some way?
anonymous says:
April 18, 2015 at 9:15 pm
Gareth, If I had a problem with pornography and I was reading that paragraph, I would see that the real sin wasn’t the porn, but adultery. That is the message I would get if I had a problem with going to strip clubs or going on the internet looking for porn. No where in those paragraphs, does it imply or say that any of those things was it sinning against Jehovah but that it LEADS to sinning. I remember arguing with a district overseer a couple of years ago because those are the very words he used in his talk at the circuit assembly. I keep looking for it in the literature and that is the way the Society always words it.
I don’t know how any more plain it can be.
zeebo says:
April 18, 2015 at 1:29 am
What i meant was it’s sad to see the in fighting and factions within this small group. Once leaving the WT was an awakening and there was a seemingly united effort to welcome people to the ‘real world’.
I’m just saying the WT has forever said things like ‘where will you go?’ and ‘who else loves like us’.. we all know its a load of crud but such vicious in-fighting makes us look pretty small.
If you watch the Tonyprime video attaching John, you will see many many equally sympathetic and supportive messages. So it isn’t really proof of anything.
I think (and i believe this article says as much) that we should all put the personality to one side and get on with WT exposure.
As for funding, the argument against Lloyd is just crazy.. Like him or not, these sites take a lot of admin and people are free to not visit if they wish.. Until a monthly subscription is requested, there is absolutely nothing wrong. Its just madness to begrudge a few googleads and an optional way to donate..
Cedars says:
April 18, 2015 at 1:40 am
“Infighting” implies acts of mutual aggression. I have been on the receiving end of a number of videos from various YouTubers all aimed at character-assassinating me through a range of wild and spurious accusations ranging from “he’s a stalker” to “he’s a wife-beater and potential pedophile.” In contrast, videos I have made singling out other activists for criticism are conspicuous by their absence.
True, I have written this article as an attempt to draw a line under these attacks and explain the motives behind some of them as I see it, but I am perfectly entitled to defend myself when my family’s happiness is on the line. I wish people would stop giving credence to the claims that I am some kind of “cyber bully” by implying this is a two-way conflict. Yes, I have written this article in the hopes of answering my accusers, and yes I have stooped to getting embroiled in arguments on YouTube and Facebook that I probably shouldn’t have – but apart from those defensive actions this “infighting” is entirely one-way.
zeebo says:
April 19, 2015 at 1:49 am
I guess what i mean by community is that this issue has ploarised everyone and they have got stupid. I happen to think the fact you are at the eye of the storm is incidental.. could have been anyone else who is on public display. But the reactions and frankly horrible things being said put shame one us all. I say comments (albeit joking) about physical violence. Not funny. Anyway I hope you can sandbox this and not let it effect you too much. There will always be trolls
kat says:
April 11, 2015 at 3:37 pm
It is very sad that ones have to resort to these childish antics, it just makes the work of all activists look bad, the apologists would love all this, don’t they realise that all they are doing is not just hurting you and your family but doing damage to the work that you all put so much time into.
Hope that it stops, we have had enough abuse from the WT/GB without ones turning on one another, it is silly childish hurtful games like one sees in a second class school room with bullies, pathetic.
My thanks to both you and your wife for all the time and effort you put into bringing such excellent articles and videos, you are appreciated and those that do care are many, those that don’t and are full of this tribal abuse are not worth anymore of your time.
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danman says:
April 11, 2015 at 3:46 pm
I will probably be slammed for saying so, but you are experiencing similar to what Ray Franz and company went through for not taking the ‘pc’ position that Bill Bowen (not so silent lambs) and company demanded back in the early 2,000’s.
While Bill Bowen and company were performing excellent work, they became very intolerant of anyone who did not give them full unwavering support. I do not give such to any man or woman. The old H2O forum was lit up with nasty comments between factions all centered around what you are writing about.
The internet is a wonderful tool, but it is also the cause of so much unwarranted pain and depression. Skulking around the shadows, hiding behind their cyber screens these hateful bastards do not care how much pain they can inflict. Sad to say your writings above are exactly why they do what they do. They got to you.
End it now. Never give them another voice or even recognize their puny efforts at putting you or anyone else down. Stop them by ignoring them. They are not even worth another mention.
Keep up the good work, they will eventually move on to someone else. Sad and pathetic as they are.
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Peggy says:
April 11, 2015 at 3:49 pm
Dear Lloyd, I am so very sorry to hear about the stress you have been put under. Please know that with out your rational, insightful, and well researched articles I would not have awakened. You mean the world to me, and I expect many others. Just ignore the haters. I know of the Kim and Mike stuff. I quit reading their rants
long ago because it was simply dumb. You are a man of intelligence. Thinking people appreciate you very much.
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gary says:
April 11, 2015 at 3:50 pm
I’d rather spend one day with a person who feels than a 1000 with one that thinks. What a gift.x
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my name is not sister says:
April 11, 2015 at 3:53 pm
Oh wow. I’m so sorry you have had to make a plea to these ones who are truly living up to the title “mentally diseased” by the wtbts. Irony much? but I am glad you have, for you felt the necessity of being heard (so important) and for the protection of your precious family. I’m so grateful for courageous, reasonable, authentic people as you, who become that voice for us who won’t stick our necks out there. Thank you so much for your work as so many of us now have a place to go where we feel at home, VALIDATED, and supported. Btw, I consider myself Christian (though I believe all beliefs – Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity – are to be a guide to peace in this world and totally not a necessity) and have yet to feel any discouragement or opposition of my beliefs from you. Only live and let live and stating of facts and a genuine concern for those who have been abused by this religion and a gentle guidance to freedom by ones who are still oppressed. Please know you are SO appreciated and please carry on. I’m sure we out number the others.
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my name is not sister says:
April 11, 2015 at 3:56 pm
Oh, and I’m American. ;-)
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John Walsh says:
April 11, 2015 at 4:08 pm
Lloyd, with regard to aggressive activism. I believe you are taking the right approach, and most readers/followers/subscribers will fully support that mature and in fact intelligent outlook.
If we wish to help current JW’s, any other approach won’t work.
Always look at the bigger picture, small minded self gratuitous, aggressive commentary/actions is exactly that, and belies a lack of sincerity in desire to help anyone but the person behind the commentary.
That is why you were driven to state your clear position, because you have no other choice if you are true to yourself, which you are.
Cheers Mate, John from `down under’
Feel free to email me any time.
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gary says:
April 11, 2015 at 4:31 pm
Having been wherever, and I have, I have deep concern for all of those who have too. ( this ain’t no assembly) for those persons who you may leave behind, you maybe right;-) “hide in you shell”, Supertramp.x
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gary says:
April 11, 2015 at 4:47 pm
Ahh, the logical song. . .written by the governing body, Supertramp.x
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Imacountrygirl says:
April 11, 2015 at 4:49 pm
Lloyd, I am so sorry that you are caught in this situation.
Almost two years ago, I just sort of disappeared off Facebook. I don’t even miss it anymore. I have come to believe that there is a very real danger of overload on social media.
I know this sounds crazy now, but I hope in time you can come to understand it. “What other people say about me is none of my business!”
Please don’t feel like you have to justify yourself and what you do to ANYBODY. Those who have come to know you and love you and appreciate the work you have taken on, know enough about you to want to be right here on your site, supporting you. Those who don’t really know you will never believe what you or any of us have to say anyway. Protesting your innocence only makes them dig in deeper.
Our common denominator, the Watchtower, spews poison that affects each of us differently. In time, some heal and sadly, some never heal. Those of us who still believe in God can pray for them; and, for you to have the strength to continue with your valuable work.
Much Christian love to you, your wife and precious daughter from your sister
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shannon says:
April 11, 2015 at 5:03 pm
I would just like to say thank you Cedars……for the work you do and for providing me the information and facts for the past 2.5 yrs. My eyes have truly been opened and I was able to help another family member through your site. It surprises me that you have not received nothing but gratitude from others, perhaps the haters should go back to the “truth” (would they get more love, compassion and facts there?)
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Sarah says:
April 11, 2015 at 5:05 pm
You are a gifted writer. The ex-JW community is fortunate to have you. Thank you for your tireless, passionate efforts.
There are many lovely people in our community anxious to heal, move on and see loved ones wake up and join us. Unfortunately, there is a lot of mental illness among ex- JWs and misplaced anger as well. The persecution of you and your family is so wrong. You may well tire of all of this and move on but your work HAS made a difference. I really look forward to reading your book.
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sally1914 says:
April 11, 2015 at 5:18 pm
I am so sorry to hear that this is taking place. Be assured there are many of us who follow you and are regularly encouraged by your posts, though we may not post a comment each and every time. I hope you, your wife and daughter are managing during this onslaught. I don’t know why ex-jw feel this need to attack, we have a common enemy, the watchtower and the 7 old men in brooklyn, enacting rules for 8 million, sentencing many of them to death each year. I thought this had all blown over, so sorry to hear they are still giving you a hard time and attacking. I have experienced this as well on numerous sites and must say, block those who get abusive. No you are NOT required to put up with this abuse!
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Ted says:
April 11, 2015 at 5:25 pm
LLoyd, If these morons can get you to close down they will
have achieved their aim and will be happy. The WT, con men
will be delighted, But hundreds of us who have been helped
to freedom from cult domination, will be very sad.
The borderline psycho’s and full blown ones will always be out
there, it’s a fact of life that we’ve got to contend with. It’s
pointless appealing to their better nature it’s just isn’t there.
I came across two that you refer to, their video was just a
hysterical, almost maniacal rant. They had nothing worthwhile
to offer. I got the impression they needed psychiatric help.
They can’t emulate the qualities that you bring to this site, so
there’s a strong element of jealousy involved. It’s difficult for
a sensitive person to develop a thick skin, But it’s helpful
when confronted by these cretins.
I’me confident your will is equal to anything that they can throw
at you.
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gary says:
April 11, 2015 at 5:26 pm
There’s a pair of hands holding on to set of bars, set in space, on the album cover of “crime of the century”. . . I wonder why?
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Jason says:
April 11, 2015 at 5:47 pm
Hi Lloyd,
I just want to say that your type of level headed approach is the only approach that can appeal to the majority of reasonable people who want to leave this cult.
I’ve also found that you have been quite respectful of other’s religious beliefs even if you don’t share in them. You are allowed to have your own beliefs and express them. From what I have seen you have been pretty good about not shying away from self criticism either.
That being said, not everyone wants peace and freedom. Some people want retribution. Others simply substitute one kind fanaticism with another, often in the form conspiracy theories, which often require larger logical leaps then they ever needed to make in Watchtower. Some people just want someone to burn.
Often trying to reason with the unreasonable actually makes things much worse. As infuriating as it can be, the best thing to do is to actually not dignify untruths with a response at all. It only draws attention to them, gives the them power, validation and recognition, which at the end of the day, is all they seek.
I can honestly say that I wouldn’t have even known much about these people at all if you hadn’t mentioned them..and you don’t want to be giving trolls any more web visits than they already get.
As an outsider, I might have one criticism, is that you engage the negativity. Just focus on the positive, on solutions, on reason, on healing. Ignore the hate.
“Hatred is like a poison which you inject into your veins, before injecting it into your enemy. It is throwing cow dung at another: you dirty your hands first, before you dirty others.” – Gems of Buddhist Wisdom (1996) from the Buddhist Missionary Society
a bit cheezy but true.
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Friend of all says:
April 11, 2015 at 5:53 pm
I hope you can all set this debate aside, call a truce and continue your efforts to help yourselves recover first, focus on your families and assist others when you are able. I respect and appreciate all the great articles and informative videos you have published. You have helped me and other family members in our ‘waking’ up. You and the other ex JWs have a lot of hurt, depression and frustration from the JW experience and background. I hope all can be mature adults and grow beyond the name calling and debates. Please continue you activism if you feel it is best for you – if not, please take a break and focus on your family. Don’t let this get you down, you are loved and respected. Please be careful about engaging in petty discussions on social media or commenting on videos. It would be better to say nothing if others are disagreeing or ‘attacking’ you. Then there will be no fuel for the flames. Take care and love to you all.
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Melanie says:
April 11, 2015 at 6:08 pm
Sorry to hear you and your family are going through this! I respect and appreciate all your efforts in researching and presenting the articles of JWSurvey!
Keep fighting the good fight! There’s more with you than against you!!
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Pickled brain says:
April 11, 2015 at 6:17 pm
THIS Anti JW WEBSITE is HEAD & SHOULDERS way above any other in Balanced& Logical Reasoning !!!
Mike & Kims and other Anti JW website that are Littered with SWEAR Words are Just Foul Mouthed & DO NOT Attract Decent People who wish to Leave the Watchtower,
I am still attending Meetings & Going on the Ministry just so I can try to Subtly save Family who are Still inside . There ARE MANY CRUEL VICIOUS Brothers & Sisters Inside the Organistion who Turn on me if I RAISE a GENUINE LOGICAL Question about the History of the Governing Body. I AM BLANKED ,IGNORED by Some BUT Some Elders are the Worse who Make Personal Nasty Comments from the Platform,When I just Raise an Innocent Question about The GB Changing their Interpretation of certain Doctrine. These Nasty Individuals will Fuss over New Ones to Get them trapped into the Organisation . There are plenty of MENTALLY Unbalanced individuals INSIDE the Organisation & when they LEAVE the Organisation they become Even more Mentally UNSTABLE!!!!
KEEP Up The GOOD WORK John Alias Lloyd!!
As Elijah once said THERE Are MORE With Us than Against US!! Your Humour,Logical Reasoning & your Time,Effort is MUCH APPRECIATED.Even though I don’t agree with your stance on Evolution 99% of what you Print & Publish about the GB & 7 Deluded Men I agree with your Reasoning.
PLEASE Continue as YOU HAVE SAVED MANY LIVES from being ENSLAVED from these 7 CONFIDENCE TRICKSTERS in BROOKLYN!!!
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Lisa Berg says:
April 11, 2015 at 6:43 pm
Hey Lloyd,
I just wanted to say that I am sorry about how you are feeling. I know what it’s like to battle depression ( thanks to the WT). There are idiots out there that do not know how to behave like mature adults when it comes to disagreements. Tony Prime Balchen cannot say anything intelligent and it is obvious he is an out of control person. I have seen the comments he made, and there is no excuse for such asinine behavior. Please hang in there! You have many out there that are supporting you. Don’t let garbage people cause you to stop the important work you are doing! Big hugs to you and your family! :-)
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Pickled brain says:
April 11, 2015 at 6:51 pm
I forgot to say in my Last Comment:
Please Thank Your Wife as She must be Hurt at the Vitriol being heaped against you!
This Website is a BIG Sacrifice in terms of Time,Energy & Money by Both of You!!
Lloyd I am going to Pay you the Highest Compliment by Saying after Ray Franz & Barbara Anderson you Have Been the Biggest Influence on Saving People from ENSLAVEMENT to the Watchtower run by Mainly WHITE AMERICAN MEN with the TOKEN Black man thrown in !!
There were 52,000 taking the Emblems in 1935 mainly White Americans & White Europeans Like Most Nutty Religions come out of America:
Scientology,Mormonism, 7 Day Adventism,Pentecostal,Baptists,Etc,Etc
ACTS 11v26 says the NAME of the True Religion of the Bible would be Called ‘CHRISTIAN’
If someone today told 8 million JEHOVAH Witnesses to Follow a man Called RUSSELL who Based his Beliefs on PYRAMIDOLOGY as in the 7 books ‘ Studies in the Scripyures ‘ & that CHRIST chose this ORGANISATION in 1919 based on this being ‘Food at the Proper Time’ they would Laugh at these Teachings!!
The Trouble is hardly any present day JW has read these books which is CRAZY as JESUS is meant to have Chosen this Organiastion Based on what was written in these books!!!!’ & 8 Million MISLED Individuals will Change their Biblical Doctrine EVERY TIME 7 AMERICAN MEN TELL them to do so!!!
UTTER MADNESS????
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Bryan Linkoski says:
April 11, 2015 at 7:52 pm
Agreed…..utter vacuous madness trading One poison only to be replaced with another!
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Newer Comments →
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Fidhealer says:
April 11, 2015 at 7:20 pm
Please don’t stop writing here. They will win if you do. Yes, ignor the simpletons! What a bunch of losers.
I am also American but not whatever ilk of American they are…the mindset of these individuals does’t seem a whole lot removed from the cult like thinking JWdom is. They have not awakened. They have just slipped into another delusion.
Love your work, Lloyd.
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Pickled brain says:
April 11, 2015 at 7:57 pm
The Abusive people that attack you Lloyd used to be Active JWs which says a LOT about the Personality of Type of people that WERE in the Organisation & who are Still in . The Organisation is BASED on Hate filled Doctrine:
SHUNNING Family Members because they Smoke or QUESTION Doctrine or They GROW a BEARD ,That’s the Women I’m talking about??
SHUNNING Sisters if They WEAR TROUSERS to a Meeting !!!
You will not be seen as a Good CHRISTIAN or used on the Platform at Assemblies or Kingdom Halls if you Commit the Above UNFORGIVEABLE SINS!!
Never mind if you are the Kindest Caring Individuals!!
Doesn’t it show how PHARISAICAL & UNCHRISTIAN the Organisation run by 7 American Men is ?????
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John Z says:
April 11, 2015 at 7:42 pm
I place you and Paul Grundy in high regard. It was your site I stumbled on last year almost to the day. Lloyd, I will never forget how you cracked open a shell that needed to be opened so bad! I too am a new father like you and after my daughter’s birth and all the HLC crap we went through it made me question our whole belief system. My only regret is I wasn’t awake when Ray Franz was still alive. You woke me up! You saved me and my little family! So don’t give up, don’t give into the bullies. If they want to fight someone, want to make a difference, take on WTBS, take on the GB. Forget wasting time with a small fry like yourself.
John Zackerdelly
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Pickled brain says:
April 11, 2015 at 8:35 pm
@John Z . Hospital Liasion Is a Joke!! I asked one member isn’t it Kind of WORLDLY People to Donate Blood as we JWs can get LIFE SAVING Blood Fracttions such AS Hemoglobin,Factor 8 & Albumin(Breast cancer Treatment) from Donated Blood & isn’t it Ironic that we JWs USE WORLDLY people’s Donated Blood to save JW Lives !!’
JW Women are 44 times more Likely to Die in Childbirth because of refusing Blood Transfusions than Non JW women giving Birth!! The Research was done in Norway!! 7 American GB MEN are MURDERERS because of Claiming to be SPIRIT DIRECTED???
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Swallowtail says:
April 11, 2015 at 8:25 pm
The reason I started reading your blog to begin with is because YOU AREN’T an insane, overly bitter, and going to the other extreme ex-JW. I think I speak for many when I say we have been able to relate to you when it comes all the ups and downs of being a human . That being said, Dear Mike and Kim and (other crazy people) Stop being insane. If you want to weep for Jesus go for it. Grow up already. It is infuriating that anyone has to worry about their family just because they do not agree with what others think or say. If you don’t like what Mr Cedars says, you do not have to read it or listen to it. Isn’t that magical? But some of want to. That is exactly the reason Jw’s are able to make such a good argument against “apostates”.Because people start acting like they need to get put on anti-psychotics.
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Appelonia says:
April 11, 2015 at 10:07 pm
Those cards are creepy! That is a seriously abusive person right there who did that. I mean… who does that! I’m also an atheist ex-jw who left over 10 years ago. Your page and videos are invaluable. More power to you! It will get better!
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Chrissilein (English is not my first language) says:
April 11, 2015 at 11:05 pm
I’m sorry to read this report. And by the way. You are of course allowed to block abusive people at Facebook. Kick them, come off with them. Don’t waste your precious lifetime with characterless people. And by the way. If these id..ts furthermore “threaten” you, speak to the police. Take care, Cedars.
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Chrissilein (English is not my first language) says:
April 11, 2015 at 11:08 pm
PS. Of course I’m sorry for the parents who lost their daughter. They should seek professional help though.
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Designer Stubble says:
April 11, 2015 at 11:20 pm
John,
Although your work is highly appreciated, perhaps for the better of yourself and your family…it would be good to take a sabbatical from your activism. Really give this some serious thought.
Cheers, DS
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mike says:
April 12, 2015 at 12:39 am
I am so sorry for you and your wife Lloyd. What you do is very important, but your health and well-being is much more important.
Like others have said, take a break, regroup and come back stronger.
As Mark Twain said:
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.’
Often linked with the above is:
“I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.” (George Bernard Shaw).
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Jolly says:
April 12, 2015 at 12:47 am
Never answers dear Cédars
Silence is one of the arguments more difficult to refute…
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Julia Orwell says:
April 12, 2015 at 12:52 am
Haters: who needs them? Life is too short for haters. Keep up the good work. Maybe take a break from time to time too, because if you don’t give to yourself, you can’t keep giving to others.
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Sardec says:
April 12, 2015 at 1:24 am
Cedars, whenever you put yourself out against oppression there will always be aggression. Remember, you have true freedom…these ‘haters’ are still stuck in the cult of religion.
I’m sorry you have to go through this, keep in mind, you’ve helped many to wake up or stay awake and that’s no small feat!
I recommend taking a day and going to the seaside or just going out with the family and NOT discussing anything JW-related…just enjoy the day and your beautiful family.
Much love,
Sardec.
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Deborah says:
April 12, 2015 at 2:02 am
Lloyd, I’m so sorry that you and Dijana are suffering because of some spiteful people who are full of hatred. I just want to let you know that your blogging and videos are really needed. I was studying with Jehovah Witnesses and was very close to becoming one of them when I came across your website which prevented me making a decision that would have ruined my life. Thank you so much.
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John Preston says:
April 12, 2015 at 3:04 am
Hi John!
I don’t want to tell you, how to live in future. But maybe it’s time to take a break and focusing on your family and interesting work, that will bring a good income . And this is an opportunity to improve living conditions, to travel more and explore the world.
It has been exactly two years since my wife and I don’t go to congregation,after 20 years of active life inside. We are happy be free and is a time for new knowledge, history,science and traveling around the world…
I visit the sites of former JW members less and less. I no longer interesting to follow the fads of the Watchtower. Probably they will do lot of foolish things…Let them do, what they want. Maybe you need to calm down and start living for yourself and your family…
Good Luck!!!
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Ken Hanbury says:
April 12, 2015 at 4:10 am
I have followed your articles for almost two years and have gained so much comfort and strength from them. As someone who can relate to the hurt you are feeling, stay strong. I have not always agreed 100% with your writings but would so much miss not reading Cedars.
Best Wishes to you and your family.
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Pat Law says:
April 12, 2015 at 4:25 am
So very sorry to hear this Lloyd. Those people show themselves up by their spitefulness and vindictiveness. You have been so helpful to me and so many others you don’t deserve this irrational hate campaign. I could never listen to kim and Mike, they just come across as fanatics. As someone already said they’ve replaced jw mindset with one that’s equally judgemental.
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Anne says:
April 12, 2015 at 4:30 am
Dear Lloyd
I am shunned by my partner’s adult daughter. I have found it to be shocking and totally devastating because I cannot find a solution. It is all down to you that I am still with the man who I love. Turning to you and reading almost every day your loving compassionate words which are yet full of good humor have helped me immeasurably in staying positive and strong in the face of such an unspeakably cruel movement.
I too have stood up and confronted terrible bullies. I too have paid a huge price and suffered from depression. It’s not easy for you Lloyd but you count and you are a rock and a voice for so many us who are hurting. I too am agnostic but I send you and your beautiful family heaps of blessings and love for a wonderful life ahead.
Thank you Lloyd for breathing life and hope into a world which is sometimes so hard to understand.
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alanv says:
April 12, 2015 at 4:38 am
Anyone who takes a strong stand against something is going to get abuse. That is why most people just live and let live. But exposing JWs governing body is an important work for all ex JWs. All of us must just do what ever we are able to. But that must not be at the expanse of our health or our families help. JWs will probably be around after most of us are dead and gone, as there will always be vulnerable people who get taken in by them. All we can do is limit the damage this religion causes. We have to decide ourselves what amount we can do. But never should we be in a position where our health or our families health is suffering.
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Justin Stormfall says:
April 12, 2015 at 5:12 am
Hey Cedars, Do not let the “Goodfellas” get to you. They are all jealous of the work and attention that you do.
My guess is Tony Balchen has an ego problem and is jealous of your success and it eats him up inside that he isn’t. His only goal is to drag you down to his level. Unfortunately, until he learns to be articulate, and educated, that will never happen.
Keep up the good work, and I hope this outburst of his increases your donations!
I still say pursue cyber bullying and stalking charges against those who sent the cards. They are threats, subtle yes, but threats still.
Best of luck!
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Dblaron42 says:
April 12, 2015 at 5:46 am
Tony Prime? Really? Bwhahahahaha! Me thinks that he must be really short and not just in the vertical sense if you catch my drift. Small man syndrome…..
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Tam Emers says:
April 12, 2015 at 6:09 am
I am shocked to hear that people are being so aggressive towards you and your family Cedars. It is a challenge to deal with such damaged and unbalanced people, whether in person or in the online arena. You are completely within your rights to draw boundaries of appropriate behavior and maintain them. The people that say you do not have a right to do this are clearly unable to see the correlation between their controlling behavior and that of the JW organization.
I have looked through a number of exJW sites on the internet and yours is a breath of fresh air in comparison to the majority. Your calm and reasoned arguments show the true spirit of activism, and those who exist merely to aggressively convert JWs to their own cause are clearly choosing the way of undue influence. You are not, and I respect you and your associates for this.
Although I used to be a JW I am now a member of the neopagan community and much happier there. Most of the exJWs I know are agnostic or atheist. I have seen only a small minority who try to recruit JWs or exJWs to their new ‘one truth.’ You would think they would have learned their lesson in this respect, and it sucks that they ruin the party for the rest of us ;)
I wish you and your family well, and hope that you are able to protect yourselves by continuing to maintain your strong boundaries no matter what a few crazies say. Thank you for your work, and know that there are many who fully support you in it. Peace and blessings.
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E3 says:
April 12, 2015 at 7:09 am
Hi Cedars, the subject of this article is something that has truly bothered me when I became aware of it. I do not know what is going on behind the scenes, and I am not here to take sides with anyone. That being said, I thoroughly disagree with attacking you and your family, nobody should ever be made to feel unsafe and threatened. We purposely left the group that did that to us. I have read much since waking up, and I have come to realize just how truly destructive the cult is both mentally and emotionally. I would strongly imagine that your depression is most likely related to your involvement with Jehovah’s Witnesses, or at the very least was aggravated by it. I think that most people that leave have some level of trauma to deal with, and it can take a very long time to fully process everything. This is why professionals who are aware of the effects of being in a cult recommend therapy when you leave.
I don’t like seeing those who are awake fighting with each other, especially when those involved are individually accomplishing something. As people who have woken up, we all find ourselves in a strange new world that isn’t the paradise we were promised. We each have to adjust to it in our own way, and we won’t always agree about how to do that.
I personally enjoy your blogs and your videos, and I thank you for them. I also enjoy the other channels with whom this feud exists. I am not going to participate in in either side of the argument, and I will not accuse them of being crazy. I think that in their own right, they are bringing something important to the discussion, and they reach people that perhaps only they can reach. There is value in what they do.
We all learned so many hurtful ways of thinking and acting when we were under the influence, such as black and white thinking, and attacking those who disagree with us. It isn’t always easy for us to realize that we have these harmful practices that have been indoctrinated in us for a very long time. The further away I get, the more I realize the need to exorcise WT demons from my head.
I guess what I am trying to say is that we have all been hurt by the WT, and it is often times easy to misdirect that hurt and anger. I agree with your concluding thought that there is a legitimate place to direct those feelings and that effort.
I am sorry for your hurt, and for your family’s hurt in the whole process. The other side feels hurt too. I wish there were a way to smooth things over. Perhaps when it is not possible to agree with individuals, the best course is to disengage, and not get into situations in which attacks are exchanged. When those who are awake are fighting each other, the only people who lose is those of us who are awake, and others that we may wake up. One thing we don’t need is more reasons for divisions.
So that is my thought on the matter, for what it is worth.
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anonymous says:
April 12, 2015 at 7:31 am
Lloyd, I also am shocked and saddened by the fact that you are receiving abusive criticism from anyone, and especially ex-JW’s. I want to give you and your family a big hug from across the pond here in the U.S. You have helped me so much and also my daughter and your site is the one I go to several times throughout the day to see what other ex-JW’s are saying.
You have given us a voice and without that, I don’t know how I could have gotten through the last 12 months. I knew that the JW religion wasn’t “right” but it wasn’t until I found your web site that I realized that it wasn’t me that was crazy, but it was the religion.
I saw the Tony Prime video where he went into a Kingdom Hall during the Memorial and made a complete imbecile of himself and made all of us ex-JW’s look crazy. He didn’t help people to wake up. If anything, he did just the opposite. He made all those Witnesses in the Hall, think that all ex-JW’s are mentally diseased. He obviously was drunk out of his mind. I feel sorry for the guy. He seems like he’s on the verge of a nervous breakdown or something. I was so embarrassed by what he did and I can’t for the life of me understand how anybody could think differently.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2ucwtmsz0c&feature=player_detailpage
It is good to understand a bully so they don’t let them destroy you.
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Gwen Smith says:
April 12, 2015 at 7:40 am
I am shocked and saddened that people are behaving this way. I am an ex-JW and still a Christian but I respect your viewpoint and have learned (and laughed) reading your work. I am so glad to be free of the arrogant and judgmental mindset that I had as a practicing Witness and I am more likely now than ever to consider multiple perspectives and opinions. It surprises me that anyone could escape this cult and revert back to this sort of judgmental behavior. You seem like a sincere person and I am so sorry for all that you are suffering.
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Enrico says:
April 12, 2015 at 8:06 am
Ditto.
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J*L*C*R says:
April 12, 2015 at 8:07 am
Most Jw’s and Ex Jw’s are absolutists…they are right and you are wrong….that mentality is ingrained in them from childhood. Also, they are so extreme in the correctness of their beliefs that once they decide to leave the organization…one extreme…the vacillate towards another extreme…no middle ground.
Lloyd, realize that once you started on this path…any progress that you made in helping people (including myself)…. would be mirrored by hate and vile from those who disagree with you (like them). Think of Dr.King and Ghandi and take pride and courage in such opposition. After all these sad people are likely just jealous ex-sheeple who are jealous of your success and intellect. It will get worse before it gets better…just tell the family to hang on….”Haters gonna hate”
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unholyroller says:
April 12, 2015 at 11:10 am
You are on to something there. It wasn’t until I saw this that I figured out I was doing the circular reasoning that they had drilled into me. It was like a weight was lifted off me when I realized I didn’t have to live like that anymore.
http://www.ted.com/talks/kathryn_schulz_on_being_wrong?language=en
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anonymous says:
April 12, 2015 at 8:27 am
A year ago, when somebody would have asked me how my Easter went, I would have said “I had a nice day” and no more comments coming out of my mouth. We were always told by the Society to just thank them for such comments.
Now that I have let my mind actually think and question all the teachings of the Watchtower, I have seen so many videos where people and not necessarily ex-JW’s, have sent me to the Bible and I have learned so much about the Bible that I never realized when I was a Witness.
In the process, I began to also question the validity of the Bible and now I am totally not religious at all anymore. I now don’t feel as if I have an invisible God, overseeing everything I do in my life like I did before. I don’t know if you would call that an atheist but I just don’t “believe” anymore.
Two times in the last week I was asked how my Easter went and both times, I said “I am not religious”. The first girl didn’t say anything but the 2nd girl said to me after I told her that I wasn’t religious, and I asked her how her Easter went said “oh, I am not religious either. I don’t go to church or anything like that”.
In the United States, people are made to feel ashamed if they don’t belong to a religion but there’s now commercials being run here that even famous people are coming out and saying in the commercials they don’t believe in God and aren’t afraid to burn in hell. I think this campaign is helping people who don’t “believe” to come out and admit they aren’t “believers”.
I don’t know how many ex-JW’s don’t believe in God anymore, once they wake up, but that is what happened to me. So, if a person still believes in God, then believe in God. I don’t care. But, don’t make any of us out to be a criminal of sorts because we don’t also believe in God.
If people do even a little research on the internet, there are plenty of reasons not to believe that the Bible that “Christians” revere, leaves a lot to make a person question whether any of it is “inspired” of a creator.
If people get attacked by ex-JW’s for not believing in God and Jesus, then they are just as brain blocked as they were when they were still in the “truth”, in my humble opinion.
If the brothers in my Kingdom Hall want to disfellowship me for not believing in the Bible anymore, that is what it would have to be for. I won’t talk against the Society anymore. They can’t get me on that. I will tell them that I question the validity of the Bible now.
Can you imagine disfellowshipping me because I tell them I don’t believe in the Bible anymore? I think that would be rich. If any one of them ask me why I don’t believe in the Bible anymore, I have tons of reasons, which I don’t think they would want to hear.
Are ex-JW’s punishing Lloyd because he doesn’t believe in the Bible? If so, they are no different than the Watchtower Society. They are still brainwashed.
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Jill says:
April 12, 2015 at 8:30 am
I’m very sorry to hear this, Cedars. You do good and painstaking work here. I hope there can be peaceful resolution.
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Art Fern says:
April 12, 2015 at 8:41 am
This incident along with that 90 minute attack video have been so very destructive and confusing at the same time. My involvement in the ex-JW world has been only to be supportive and encouraging to those who have been so deeply hurt through shunning, exclusion, demands from Elders that they continue to allow an abusive spouse to cause emotional and physical pain, and other forms to control, to keep their thinking in line.
I have been in activism fighting controlling forms of religion hoping to open some eyes. I have never been a JW, although I have been deeply affected by the suicide of a close friend who was dealing with threats coming from a group of Elders. I have never made an unkind remark to any other activists and I can’t take sides, I just want to help heal and encourage everyone to keep their eyes on the victims, avoiding any actions that could harm fellow activists. There are too few of us fighting unlimited funding from the churches, the threats to members used to maintain distance between ourselves and those whose eyes are closed to the truth that is so clear and abundant. When you have two, four, or ten people you respect or who’s circumstances you understand, harming each other you can’t help but either want to back away from all, or feel you are betraying one by continuing to support another. John, you and I have been friends on FB for awhile, I “see” you daily and engage in discussions or just read and learn. I can’t see you as a bad guy, and the thought of you or your lovely wife upset or depressed by an attack makes me feel very sad. I am in this because of a sympathetic nature and a love for others. I hope we all can move on trying to support the hurting, undermine the leaders and doctrines that damage, but only show tolerance, respect, and acceptance for each other.
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Sharon Lee Murray says:
April 12, 2015 at 8:55 am
John, if it wasn’t for you, Ruben Ortiz, Teeny Pajamas and Rick Fearon… I would still be trapped in that demonic family destroying cult. Please don’t give up! My grandfather was from ‘the old country’…Italy. He came to America 1907…the one thing he made us believe, ‘don’t let ‘any’ make or break your day but YOU’. Anything Anyone. Once I left the cult, that has been my mantra. I thank God for you and the others. Keep up the great work!
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anonymous says:
April 12, 2015 at 9:07 am
If it wasn’t for the fact that Peter Gregerson gave Ray Franz a whole years’ salary so that Ray could take off of work for a year to write “Crisis of Conscience”, we would never have had his book and you don’t even have a fridge or a couch.
You have saved many lives through your work Lloyd and who can put a price on even one life saved?
I want to punch in the face anybody would cause harm either emotionally or physically to you and your family.
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DAC says:
April 12, 2015 at 9:30 am
Dear Cedars,
Please so not despair. No matter who we are, where we live or what we believe, life is full of us and downs, challenges and times when things seem hopeless and pointless. You are doing a good work and are helping countless many that have the maturity to think for themselves and apply common sense. I too was raise in the “truth”. I too did not become an atheist, but discovered I was one all along. After spending many years in limbo, not knowing what to believe, it was by coming across Christopher Hitchens and watching countless videos of his debates that I began to understand the origins of religious belief and how apparent it is that it is man made. So I found a distinction between many of the things I didn’t believe about JW’s but also many things about the bible that are not exclusive to JW’s but all religions. People are so vastly different and sometime inexplicable. One person believes in “The Truth”. Another stops believing “The Truth” but becomes a born again Christian. Yet another becomes agnostic. Heres the truth about belief. DON’T TRUST IT. Not a belief we have and certainly not the belief of another. As Shakespeare said, “To thine own self be true” Everybody else can go to Hell. Stay strong my friend. We are with you and on your side.
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Julie Vick says:
April 12, 2015 at 9:59 am
Good day Mr. Cedars.
I have been free for about 23 years now. I am shunned by my parents, my father a very strong leader in “that” community. Many times over the last 23 years, I have felt lost or maybe I was the only one that had similar thoughts as you have.
You have been like a breath of fresh air. I thoroughly appreciate the efforts you put into your research and I am equally appreciative that you aren’t a hater. There are so many negative sites for ex-JWs. I appreciate your spin on things and hope you can continue. I too understand your depression issues. It IS tough to overcome. I have had several years of therapy and taken numerous prescriptions to overcome or manage mine. I have a lot of sympathy for this condition.
Please keep up the greatness that you are, as you are wonderfully made by our Father to encourage others. You dear sir, have awakened to your calling and carry it out magnificently.
I pray your work continues only if it still blesses you. If you come to the point where it doesn’t, then my prayer will be for continued blessings from our Father on you and your household on whatever journey you go forward with.
Thank you again for all your work and your attitude. It is greatly appreciated in my household here in Texas.
Best regards and blessings – j
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Indigo ocean says:
April 12, 2015 at 10:14 am
Hi Cedars I think that all of us creatives are plagued with ‘the black dog’, it’s the high price that is paid for our talents. You are very talented and make a tremendous difference in the lives of many lost and hurt individuals.
I often find that what can literally bring me to my knees one week I can skip over the next once the cloud passes. Keep your head and and don’t worry about the jealousy of fools.
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Exhausted says:
April 12, 2015 at 10:38 am
I think you are an amazing asset to the knowledge forums
That expose the real issues that we former witnesses go
Through. I eagerly await your views on things that are
Newsworthy in regards to doctrine, world events, conferences and so on every day. Like most of us, I too
Suffer from severe depression and developed many
Problems such as alcohol abuse, self hatred, and extreme
Isolation. I have been helped by your calm approach to
The issues at hand for several years now and would be very sad if you stopped posting… please persevere.
I am in my sixties and lived through all of the hype of
The sixties, seventies and beyond. That my friend is why
I am in fact EXHAUSTED.
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unholyroller says:
April 12, 2015 at 11:00 am
I saw a little of what happened with this. The whole thing looked to me like people who have not totally healed from what was done to them inside the org. There is something to be said for planting one’s freak flag and letting it fly unapologetically. I saw a lot of “getting my point across” from both sides and too much of it matters what others think.
Inside the org my opinions didn’t matter and I had no voice. Who I was as a person was strictly prohibited because I was supposed to be a drone. I have lived with the fallout of this for decades and it wasn’t until I turned and faced it did I start to heal. I am still healing and the anger comes in waves. If I had someone to take it out on I am sure I would. I see some of what I felt come from both camps.
Stop defending yourself Cedars. You are doing nothing wrong and don’t have to answer to anyone. Your voice is being heard and you are making a difference. The activist have the right to reconcile this in their own way as well. This whole thing about what is the right way and the wrong way to go about this is very black and white. That is simply left over JW thinking and you will be better off if you move on from that.
Easy for me to say because I am not in the spotlight and taking on criticism like you are. Just what I see going on here.
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Linda says:
April 12, 2015 at 11:18 am
Hi Cedars so sorry to read there are people out there as evil as that…..these ones who act in this way are certainly not Christians in anybody’s language……Jesus was humble and righteous and he encouraged us to be like him, not act in this evil way.
I know you are not a believer ( I am not a witness, I attended the meetings when I was a child) but you seem like such a spiritual man, really caring about what’s right and wrong, standing up for the silent majority as you put it. You have made good sense to me and in a funny sort of way have made me turn to Jesus in a much more profound way which has helped my life no end….. I was tottering between the witnesses and seeking Jesus/God on a lonely road…..I found the way and I don’t need to be part of a man made organisation…….however, they do a great job of spreading the word….when seeds are planted those seeds often grow or die…..its God who turns the heart if he sees you are searching.
I do thank you for your hard work. you don’t need to justify yourself to others!! I also hope one day you and your family (your dad etc) can all become a family united again.
All the best Linda x
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G. DAVID (Sand dollar) says:
April 12, 2015 at 11:53 am
Short and Simple,
I am sorry for what you and your family are going through. I do agree with and appreciate what you are doing though. It has helped me in my adjustments of becoming an ex-witness and I have been able to help others because of your activism.
Take time for your family and do what it takes to make them first. Don’t let those who attack you get to you or your family. Some things (and some people) are just best ignored.
(Sand dollar)
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Sincera says:
April 12, 2015 at 11:59 am
Always felt the exjw community could be doing so much more to create awareness of Watchtower abuses. Apparently we are finally getting a billboard about the pedophilia problem.
Why did it take so long?…..Too much infighting I guess.
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John Jarrett says:
April 12, 2015 at 1:06 pm
Just remember the old saying: “No good deed goes unpunished.”
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tiger123 says:
April 12, 2015 at 1:14 pm
John (Larry)
I regularly comment here and enjoy your well thought out articles. Your website is the only one that I visit of former JWs. I am not saying all of the others are bad, rather I just do not find anything of interest. I hope you can see by all of the comments that your work and therefore the creator of the body of work, you are appreciated.
The ignorance of your critics and for some their outright stupidity I am afraid will not stop. With the highest office in our Country comes the most stringent background investigations as well as constant public scrutiny and yes even stupidity for people who often have lead outstanding lives.
I hope you will consider looking up cyber bullying laws in regards to personal attacks and seek the legal measures that you and your dear family are afforded by law. Most countries recognize the harm and damage that are inflicted and continue to ratchet up the penalties against these social tyrants.
As for me, I like your work and am grateful. If you need to take time for yourself and your family, I am certain most will understand.
Best Regards.
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Drake says:
April 12, 2015 at 1:47 pm
I generally don’t like you so much anymore after going rounds. I felt you are not a nice person after all. I went through all of that with zero knowledge however of everything you were going through before our spat. I do apologize if any of my words added to your troubles.
But rest assured, even if I dislike you after that to some extent I have a great respect for what you’ve accomplished. And anyone who would go as far as the nutters that send those cards… They are disgusting. I can’t belief people have done that.
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CharlesChubb says:
April 12, 2015 at 1:58 pm
Cedars, Im so sorry you’re having to deal with all of this. I personally appreciate all the work you have put into your blog and videos. You helped me so much when I first started to wake up and leave. Initially I was very very active in the ExJw community. I also started to experience some of this behavior among the people I knew, often asked to take sides as if this were some congregation clique! I got rid of the Facebook groups and post on the Reddit forum every once in a while. My path as an ExJw still has its ups and downs. But I digress. Haters gonna hate.
I’m here to support you and your family!
With love,
Chubb
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Tony Brock says:
April 12, 2015 at 2:29 pm
I knew that you had haters, but I had no clue as to how extreme they were in their hatred of you. Why? I simply can not understand why they would be so angry towards someone who was so calmy and mildly working to help people open their eyes towards the organization. If they are still Christian and don’t like your agnostic views, they should be happy that you so rarely use it in your denouncement of the JW’s. What do they feel they accomplish through such violence and hatred? Why are they unable to talk about issues like rational human beings? It is so sad, and it is only made worse by the fact that you, also an ex-jw like them, are the focal point of so much of their efforts. Just remember that for all those out there that hate you, there are many more of us that love you, rely on you, and owe you so much for all you have done.
-TB
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Anna says:
April 12, 2015 at 2:36 pm
This site has help me a lot.I left JW for 4 years ago.Werry afraid that maybe demons whold visit me.But thanks to this site i know that Jw is fauls and a cult. I have got my life back. I am studing to be a nurse and are married to a fine none Jw man. Thanks Cedars for a great site!
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Grace says:
April 12, 2015 at 3:44 pm
In Australia we call people like that bogans. That means someone that lacks decorum, have big mouths with nothing intelligent to say & have no self control. Idiots, I think would be another word.
John, you & Paul Grundy have helped me over the past 12 months to leave this religion behind & have the confidents to move on with my life. For so long I had these thoughts about the religion that I wasn’t game to confront out of fear & when I went searching for answers I came across so many xjw websites but yours just stood out to me & I had to keep coming back because it ticked the boxes that I needed to take the step out.
Your website is my go-to. I use your links page for keeping up with other sites that I like to visit when I’m here. I have this site saved in my favourites list.
Please take a break if you need to. I’m sure one of the other journalists here would fill the gap for you while you need the rest & if you do take a break, make sure you get the police to track down who sent the cards.
I know that we are all here sending you our support with words on a monitor but the best healing is human connection. Draw close to your little community of trusted friends. You can’t beat face to face contact. People understand. I know for me when I have had my down times, reading was a great outlet but I needed to be around people that loved & respected me to build me up again.
PS. Can you give your wife & daughter a big hug from me.
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Bob says:
April 12, 2015 at 5:32 pm
Keep up the good work and don’t let those haters get you down. You have many that appreciate your work and integrity!!!!!
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sue fointein says:
April 12, 2015 at 5:44 pm
I love your site and look eagerly to every article and every video you produce. I applaud your tenacity to keep this activism going.
I am truly sorry for what you and your family have had to endure at the hands of a few individuals.
best regards and good wishes
Sue
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Mac says:
April 12, 2015 at 6:11 pm
Lloyd, I think that you have certain qualities that I find lacking in others. You have great communication skills and seem to be a natural spokesperson. I can only imagine the time your put into your work, it shows. Sorry to hear about all the “sturm and drang”. I sincerely hope your don’t let it get you down. You are appreciated!
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enochenochenoch.wordpress.com says:
April 12, 2015 at 6:33 pm
Keep your head up and stay sane in our insane experience
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don't really have a name says:
April 12, 2015 at 6:35 pm
Let me add this explanation ( and hope it helps ):
When I started out on my journey away from the WTS I joined a few online forums and posted regularly. Participating in topical discussions and dispensing advice when people asked and I felt that my answer was useful.
Let’s contextulize EXJW forums -it’s important to think about what shapes an exjw. These are online places where people are going through the explosive process of waking up and are confronting rage, suicidal ideation and a burning need to lash out at the horrible lie they have lived. Moreover, many are facing the real prospect of shunning and losing spouses, children, family, jobs, homes and other tangible possessions. It isn’t pretty.
I noticed that with regularity when my post did not fit the status quo of the rest of the forum ( or thread of discussion) that I was mocked or belittled and/or moderators would post heavy handed comments that were a de facto way to silence. It was emotional and shocking to experience this treatment.
So I quit these forums not because I had been schooled or came to some realization that my posts were wrong and I needed to readjust my thinking to “proper exjw” think. No, I examined all the various reasons.
I realized that one explanation for the puzzling and hurtful behavior was that these exjws hated all things jw but still thought and acted just like good jehovah’s witnesses and their knee-jerk cognitive dissonance of being imprisoned in a thinking pattern from a hated source made them react rather than think.
From your blog post it seems that you are experiencing witness-like hatred and vitriol (on a grand scale) from former jw practitioners because you do not lockstep agree with their version of what a proper exjw does, says and advocates. I feel your pain.
Here’s the thing- you have to do what is healthy for you and your family. You’ve already sacrificed one life to the WTS there is no need to sacrifice another life to the cause of exjw.
You don’t need to justify or rationalize your journey away from the jw or any of your activities. It’s just a high control cult and you are not personally beholden to crusade for any or all of the exjw legion.
Just a few thoughts. I wish you the best in whatever you decide.
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Renato Alves says:
April 12, 2015 at 6:38 pm
Hello Cedars
I wrote once to you on Facebook and I confess I was a little disappointed when I didn’t receive a reply from you. I understand you might receive dozens of letters per day, don’t worry. You helped me a lot. Since I left “them” I was feeling afraid, guilty and all kinds of things till I start reading your blog and watch some of your videos. It freed me…
I have a beautiful life, in a beautiful place, productive work which I love and I concentrate on this things, spending the most time I can with my lovely family and dogs. I have no regrets and I know that everything that happened to me up to the point that I left brought me here where I am today.
Although I was very happy to read your articles and see that I don’t owe nothing to those hypocrites every time I see some article or receive some emails with new posts, those bitterness, sad memories, and all bad that happens comes to my heart again and I don’t want that anymore. I spent 18 years of my youth working for them for free, I won’t spend thoughts or any kind of energy on them anymore. “It’s just not healthy”
If you allow someone that has 10 years of therapy to give you a small advice, I would tell you to go live your life with your beautiful wife and daughter. All the time and energy you spend with all this, spend with the people you love. This time will never come back again. Only do positive things, around positive people.
All that you’ve done so far is more than enough to free every single mind under any control. It doesn’t need anymore. You wrote your story, you made your point, you unmasked things, you don’t need to keep doing for the rest of your life. This will only aggravate any pre-disposition to depression and it can bring you something worse.
They already had a lot of your time, don’t you think? And all this hate that you are in the middle of, can’t bring any goodness to you.
I hope you be well. This is the last time I come here. I won’t spend any of my precious time, reading or talking about JW…I have a life to live and I am so exciting about it.
Take care
PS. Sorry for any mistakes, English is my second language)
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Lou Cee says:
April 12, 2015 at 7:21 pm
Rental, You are correct! John, for the sake of your wife and baby, go and live a wonderful, free life!
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Lou Cee says:
April 12, 2015 at 7:24 pm
Darned SPELL check…LOL. I meant to say Renato.
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Michel says:
April 12, 2015 at 7:06 pm
Cedars, you’re doing a great job. Thank you!
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Mama Joy says:
April 12, 2015 at 8:29 pm
It is called displaced anger.
They are really upset at the WTBS, but not realizing we’re all on the same side now, attack each other.
My sisters have all left the JWs, but they still shun me because I’m Catholic and not Non-Denominational Christian.
I guess they haven’t learned the lesson of loving unconditionally, but then again we weren’t taught that either.
You are speaking out against the injustice of the abuse from the Watchrower Society. That is a good thing and you should be applauded for all your hard work.
Make improvements if its needed, but keep in keeping on. Humanity needs it.
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kat says:
April 12, 2015 at 9:36 pm
I think all the activists do a great job, sadly some have become personal, I like Mike and Kim video’s also, have nothing against them, and find the whole thing just takes away from the good work you all do. Peace for everyone. Hope this settles down and just be focused on the main objective, telling the truth about the WT and GB, helping others and no one is an island. Love to all.
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sparlock says:
April 12, 2015 at 9:40 pm
Well, Tony (Prime) has some entertaining videos with alot of nonsense and Mike&Kim have some interesting informations but they specualte too much. Their ideas are often far-fetched.
When it comes to facts and reasons i prefer John Cedars channel. I wish they all could get along without an apostate-beef.
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Jill says:
April 12, 2015 at 11:06 pm
I am feeling this particular article in more ways than I can count. I have obtained $90 in total donations, and $12 total from ads on my channel. On my Christian channel, I have made $7. People do not realize the painstaking time that goes into this, and the fact that we truly do just want to help folks. But, to offset and try to somehow contribute to our bills, we have no choice but to do small things such as a donation button and a few ads. I am so glad to hear you’ve done well monetizing, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
I have felt that same depression as well, being attacked not only by ex JWs, but also vengeful atheists put to attack my beliefs. It works both ways. Add to that some psychopath who started making videos about me, and I was ready to throw my hands up of the whole thing. I am glad to read this article. You’re not alone. Many have been there for me in support and there’s nothing wrong with letting everyone know how it feels for once.
A pastor said to me last week, “If you’re there for everyone else, who is there for you?” Makes you think.
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Marty MacFly says:
April 12, 2015 at 11:53 pm
I have watched many videos/read material on websites but you are the one who have been responsible for personally waking me and some of my friends up over the past 2 years…and for that we are very greatful. Although we are still in the organisation it is early days.
Thank you so much for all your hard work and your well balanced / reasonable approach.
On reflection I would have to agree with Renato Alves…. you have done so much to help others, you have done your bit, you can walk away happy and start living your life….that would be best for you and your family.
Best regards.
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airborne says:
April 13, 2015 at 12:02 am
If it’s that hateful Cedars I would personally suggest you take a break. Depression is a serious condition and I hope you are able to enjoy your time with your daughter and wife while recuperating.
These persecutors of yours should take a look in the mirror. They are truly a disgusting lot.
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Lesley says:
April 13, 2015 at 12:07 am
I just want to add my twopenneth to this subject and say that my heart goes out to you and your family in this situation. Like many other ex-JWs yours is a “go to” site. Your calm logic, your reasoned rebuttal of JW brain-washing has helped me beyond measure. Quite frankly if I had come across the more bombastic sites as I was “waking up” it would have driven me right back into the arms of the Organization. It was your calm, reasonable voice that gently brought me out. Thank you. Stay strong. Know that you are respected and appreciated. And give my (our) love to your lovely, patient wife and baby. xx
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Victor Richardson says:
April 13, 2015 at 12:20 am
Just wanted to say that your blog has been for me and many others, the voice of sanity and a real help in maintaining stability, while I exited the delusional world that I had been born in to and lived in for most of my adult life. I am in my sixties now and finally free, thanks in no small measure to your work. It must be really stressful for you and your wife and whatever decision you make regarding the future, must of course put your family first, but please know that you have made a difference!
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Pickled brain says:
April 13, 2015 at 12:24 am
@Lloyd(John) .YOU HAVE SAVED MANY LIVES !!! Keep up the GOOD WORK!!! The number of different Posts on this particular topic has shown how many different people you have helped & how many different ones read your website. MANY don’t comment but are helped by just reading the comments of others on this site.
I read one negative comment once saying the same few people only comment. WELL the responses to this topic have shown MANY PEOPLES do read this website probably Thousands of JWs who are Looking for the REAL FACTS not the Ever Changing Interpretations of 7 MEN in BROOKLYN!!
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Kieren says:
April 13, 2015 at 1:31 am
I’m with you cedars. It’s funny you know, despite being against the WT and its ways…I’ve thought previously about how *some* (a very few) people are better off stuck in a bible cult like watchtower…because at least while they’re a practicing member they’re under the thumb and sedated, and their shitty true character/mental issues are suppressed or kept in check. *Sighs* Theyre an unfortunate small side effect of helping the normal, decent majority wake up from these cults I guess. They’re the sort of who just can’t seem to construct or comprehend the concept of a sound argument, or understand what critical thinking is all about. I’d imagine others doing great rational work, such as Sam Harris, would also get a lot of threats and abuse from those who can’t handle intelligent retort. I respect & appreciate him for doing what he does despite the opponents he faces, and buy his works to support this- as I would yours.
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Sam says:
April 13, 2015 at 3:33 am
Would any one listen to these people and their views if there was no internet?
The internet gives idiots a voice as much as anyone else, but Cedars that should not take away from the benefit you bring to others, often one’s like my sister who are in difficult and stressful periods in their lives.
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natalie says:
April 13, 2015 at 4:02 am
I’m so sorry you have had to go through that, your videos and posts have really helped me immensely. I used to feel so alone in all this, but now I know there are people like me and people who lead content lives. Don’t let frustrated people get you down. I know what it means to be depressed because there’s just too many things that get piled up – just take a break, be happy with your family. You’ve already done so much.
Take care
natalie
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My english is poor Hernando says:
April 13, 2015 at 4:37 am
Being the egotist that i am, since i didn’t see my own comment here, I’m leaving another one :)
Sorry to see that you have to deal with these kind of people. Don’t bother trying to explain to them the work you have. The material you create actually educates people. Compared to your videos, all they do is rant to a camera, and i think they are clueless about their own dumbness. Keep doing what you are doing, hope things get better with your depression, i relate to that, and its almost always a side effect of growing up a JW. Don’t be afraid of threats because they are as empty as they are. Also what you make in ad revenue on youtube does not cover the work you have in my opinion.
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Matt H says:
April 13, 2015 at 4:51 am
Chin up fella! There’s a lot of love and respect for you out here in internet-land.
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Steve McRoberts says:
April 13, 2015 at 6:07 am
As a fellow ex-jw blogger, I have only the deepest respect and admiration for you, Lloyd. Yours is the calm voice of reason speaking out in a land often marred by vitriol.
As you have been so successful at what you do, I think it has caused some jealousy amongst other ex-JWs who lack the skills you possess.
I too have seen this in other contexts. In the animal-rights movement, for instance: instead of working together there is much in-fighting of one group against another. The most popular of these groups is the one that gets the most flack (even to being accused of being “a cult” and acting in ways diametrically opposed to its own philosophy!)
So, I think that just by being in the limelight you’re being exposed to the darker side of human nature here. If it wasn’t you occupying that spot at the moment, those who need to hate would direct their hatred towards someone else. Nonetheless, I know that personal attacks are hard not to take personally!
No one could blame you if you should decide to retire and look back proudly at the excellent body of work you have achieved. The ex-JW community will have lost a powerful voice, but family and sanity must come first for each of us.
With 100% support for all that you do, and for whatever you decide to do:
Love you, buddy,
–Steve McRoberts
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ENLIGHTENED says:
April 13, 2015 at 6:52 am
Keep on, keeping on. You are doing a fantastic work, Cedars, and we are behind you all the way.
We live in Canada.
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joel yearby says:
April 13, 2015 at 7:35 am
Just read this amazing article and good on you for writing it john cedars.i agree it has to stop. Cos its plainly to see you love your wife and daughter. Thanks for sharing and yeah i do hope the haters stop picking you and your family .
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
April 13, 2015 at 2:35 pm
Keep your head “Cedars”, do not let those fools a room for the Watchtower Society to exploit. The GB will now have, as opportunists, another chance to say that “apostates are mentally diseased”!
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Ezekilla says:
April 13, 2015 at 2:55 pm
You totally remind some ladies here of the guy that plays Leonidas from the movie “300” so cheer up. It can’t be all that bad for you.
Keep up the writing.
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Cuthbert says:
April 13, 2015 at 3:05 pm
Cedars,
You’re a good bloke and what you do is amazing. I love your site and think you have a real knack for writing interesting and just articles. And a lot of people are fat and ugly so I wouldn’t let that worry you.
Cuthbert.
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Charles Costante says:
April 14, 2015 at 2:00 am
“And a lot of people are fat and ugly so I wouldn’t let that worry you.”
What are you saying, Cuthbert?!!!!
Forgive him, Father, err I mean Lloyd, for he does not know what he is saying.
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David says:
April 13, 2015 at 3:38 pm
Whatever the reason that someone sent that John Smith card, be it because they think its funny (It really is not – its creepy), or they think its sending a message (It isn’t, just that you are worse than the JW’s who just take away everything and everyone you know), or that you can find someone over the internet (congrats internet stranger, you are not doing anything to help the ExJW community), the point is that you have not helped anyone by doing this.
You have made someone who has done a lot of good for many many people who have broken away from that terrible cult regret his chosen course simple out of a desire to not see harm or stress put upon his family. Its enough having to deal with the ongoing stress from the WTBTS and their universal shunning, to then have to deal with the infighting because someone doesn’t like your opinions.
Attacking someone for having a differing view was part of our old life. Shed that close minded cult personality trait and simply agree to disagree, or simply go where people share your views.
Cedars, I really enjoy your work, but you do whatever is going to make you and your family happy. Thank you for all that you have done, and while I hope you continue at it, I would understand if you do not.
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David says:
April 13, 2015 at 3:42 pm
Also, to liken blocking some of the many many horrible keyboard warriors on any sort of social media to shunning really shows how ridiculous of a position you are holding.
We are no longer members of the congregation that have to approach someone we don’t like in the spirit of Matthew 18. Screw that, if someone isn’t having an intellectual argument and is being a jerk its their own fault for getting blocked. He isn’t stopping them from continuing to spew their bile, he simply isn’t letting it land at his feet, and more power to Cedars. Grow up people. We are no longer JW’s, so stop thinking and acting like them.
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Anonymous says:
April 13, 2015 at 3:42 pm
Love your website! You have given me strength.
Can’t believe ex-jw’s are attacking you for voicing your opinion. We are all in it together!! I agree that aggressiveness towards Jehovahs Witnesses pushes them further away.
May you and your family have peace and happiness.
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Ted says:
April 13, 2015 at 3:48 pm
Lloyd. I have seen and heard some of your detractors,
they are just malevolent pygmies. They lack communication
skills, ( except for spewing out bile ).
You are head and shoulders above them. No wonder they
want to bring you down and discourage people from visiting
the best site on the net, for exposing WT and other forms of
manure. They just cannot compete.
A lot of hard work and “Talent” goes into JWsurvey. So even
if you did make a little from it you’d be entitled to it. No need
to explain to anyone, we’ve all got to live !
I hope you can continue this valuable work. But as you say
you have two other important people to consider. So whichever
way you decided to go, your choice would be respected.
Best wishes to Yourself and Family.
,
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John says:
April 13, 2015 at 4:01 pm
Hang in there Cedars; don’t let the bastards get you down.
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disillusioned says:
April 13, 2015 at 4:21 pm
I come here every day to see what everyone is saying, to feel that there are other people out there who are going through the same things is very important to be able to keep one’s sanity. We are all going through the same process even though everyone’s situation is different. Some fortunately have been able to move on and lead happy lives without giving another thought to what they left behind. I have a friend who was a witness whose family were against her becoming one and so they were very happy when she left, she found it very easy to leave. I on the other hand am married to one, my mother is one and two of my sister’s are witnesses and their families, so nephews, neices, brother-in-laws, sister-in-laws etc. I am constantly belittled by my husband because I have left the ‘truth’ I do not win any arguments with him over it because he would never look at any ‘apostate’ sites which back me up on anything I am saying, so most of the time I keep quiet and don’t say anything. I feel I am outnumbered on every side and feel in a state of turmoil most of the time. Sometimes I felt I was going mad and had no one to turn to. Finding your site has helped me a great deal, I don’t feel so alone now even though I mostly just read other people’s comments. So thank you for helping so many of us to get through a very traumatic time. Love to you, your wife and your little girl.
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Steve McRoberts says:
April 14, 2015 at 5:59 am
{{Hugs!!!}}
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Dave says:
April 13, 2015 at 4:30 pm
I feel I have quite a lot in common with you and your outlook about spirituality. I think it’s much more noble to admit that we don’t know everything there is to know about life than to claim we have it all figured out (as JWs and most Christian religions do). The beauty is that we can all have different ideas about what role science has in spirituality and/or what is the correct way of worship (if we choose to worship at all) but we don’t have to try to “win” anyone over to our side like we had to as a JW. The important thing is that we’re OUT of the org. Every one of the thousands of organized religions in the world have a compelling and convincing way of explaining that they are the right and ONLY way of proper worship. We can’t possibly, in our lifetime, thoroughly examine them all. Therefore, we all need to respect each others’ decisions and leave it at that…not insisting that “my way is the only way” and sling mud. Just my thoughts. Keep up the good work, John. You’re doing a great service!!!
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Mia South says:
April 13, 2015 at 5:14 pm
I am genuinely sorry that you and your beautiful family have had to endure such hateful behaviour. Please know that you and the work you do has been so appreciated, I for one found enormous comfort and help in the early days a year ago, when I finally woke up, from your website and your videos and have a great deal of respect and gratitude for you.
I can only imagine the affect such vileness has had on you all…it beggars belief that exJW’s can behave so dreadfully. It is so sad that those at the forefront often end up in the firing line of those wishing to gain attention for themselves.
If a break is needed..take it! If only to recoup as a family and remind yourself that life exists very normally and happily outside of all things exJW and you all have a right to that feeling of freedom and peace just like the rest of us.
Much love and thanks to you and your little family Lloyd xx
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Tamar says:
April 13, 2015 at 6:40 pm
Lloyd you have been my go to since my awakening, I get so excited every time you post a video. You have helped me tremendously and I appreciate all your hard work. Sending hugs to you and fam.
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Andrew says:
April 13, 2015 at 8:02 pm
Hi Cedars. It is completely unacceptable for people to respond in such hateful ways given the extraordinary efforts you have made to be balanced and fair in all your posts. And worse if they claim to be Christians. We must respect people irrespective of their views and actions and you have always done that. These “trolls” are only exposing themselves for what and who they really are and I would urge you to try to disregard them as best you can. As my Aussie colleague says they are “bogans” Cynical, ignorant and the kind of people who probably should be shunned because they cause harm and have crossed the line of normal civilized words and actions. Take courage.
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Grace says:
April 13, 2015 at 8:43 pm
I just want to say that jw.org is here to say, I’m sure of it.
There will always be die hard followers of the cult. We have needed this site and ones like it to keep helping us & others who are going through their awakening. The WT needs to have someone telling the other side of their propaganda story.
Thank you again to John, his helpers & the commentators on here because I am now in a place where I have no emotional attachment to this religion.
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James Broughton says:
April 14, 2015 at 6:28 am
Grace, thank you for your comment. Most helpful.
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Innocent Son says:
April 15, 2015 at 1:44 pm
Glad you found this site Grace and the comments helpful, I am in a similar position myself, I have no fear or place in the Org. after my awakening…..Keep up the good work John, there will always be the doubters and haters, rise above it, you’re doing a great job helping others to break free… Big Respect
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Vikki says:
April 13, 2015 at 11:45 pm
Once you put yourself out in the public and people know details of your private life there will always be criticism against you. It’s the nature of the beast. At the same time the work you are doing does appeal to certain people and these people have been able to make a break from the JW’s.
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theGreenWitness says:
April 14, 2015 at 3:17 am
I haven’t always agreed with everything you put up Lloyd, but thats the fun world of opinion! Some people just cant manage other peoples opinion beyond their own dim tunnel vision in a normal human manner. I truly believe your intentions are in the right place. Critical thinking is one of the blessings of having a full functioning human brain at our disposal! Also, word of advice from what i’ve heard youtubers say regarding hate comments and trolling; for every 1 hateful comment you read, read 10 positive ones. Its the thing with our brains, we will notice the negative more than the positive, its a survival technique that served us better in the past when negative things usually meant real threats to our life. Stay strong and keep up the good work! :)
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Shanti says:
April 14, 2015 at 4:22 am
It is our JW training to be prejudice and critical of anything that is different from us. Many of us have to constantly fight it. Many of us do not realize we are still not our own person but our personalities are still being shaped by the brainwashing techniques instilled by the organization. Some people can not grow out of it but just make a lateral move. I do believe your website is for those who want a better life and want to improve their situations. It is immensely beneficial to those who are seeking and need help and direction for climbing out of the JW darkness. And for those who want to understand what happened to them and how they could have been so manipulated. We want to know there are others just like us. Your website is the voice of reason and provides a much needed service. Please know that you are deeply appreciated.
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Melka says:
April 14, 2015 at 6:05 am
Back when this whole feud started, I liked Mike and Kim, and saw the rebuttal or video regarding Cedars on their channel, and I actually knew nothing about it, but watched it, and listened to their extremely obnoxious over-pronounced re-reading the email, and when you just listened to the words that were written by Cedars, there was absolutely nothing nasty or wrong with it, it was just in the absurd voice that Shyla was using to read it to make it seem like it was mean. I immediately stopped subscribing to their channels and stopped watching their videos, and all these other people started making rebuttal videos, which I didn’t watch, and stopped watching their videos all together. It felt too much like another clique situation. That’s the reason I don’t miss Jehovah’s Witnesses, the gossip, the elitism, the way you can’t say anything honest to anybody, because they simply can’t handle it, and someone with a lot of clout and a gang backing them up can make your life miserable. It’s the mentality of someone born and raised in the cult.
Maybe it’s a conscious decision we all have to make to not act like a middle school clique anymore, because it’s simply not acceptable in the real world. People have to be able to state their opinions and discuss them, it’s the only way to grow and learn from others.
Some people raised like that are still emotionally underdeveloped, which is so sad. It’s really sad they don’t understand fully what the Watchtower has done to them.
When you have a bully in your life, it makes perfect sense to cut those people out of your life because they’re toxic, but the internet and your prominence makes it very hard.
Nobody would blame you if you stepped back. Your bravery, knowledge, sincerity and honesty have inspired so many people to take up activism and educate themselves, I know the activism would continue.
And the people who visit this website and discuss the articles openly and honestly, I’m sure do so for the same reason that I do, because it’s the only place I feel I can do just that.
We only want the best for you and your family, and I know I’m not alone in my appreciation for you and your family. I’m so sorry it’s at such a cost. When you’re trying to help people who may be severely emotionally scared and damaged (not just Jehovah’s Witnesses), it can be so draining and sometimes dangerous, but you have to know when you’re burnt out or worn out. Take care of yourself and your family. We got you.
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Lola says:
April 19, 2015 at 5:00 pm
My thoughts exactly! The obnoxious voice was ridiculous and an infantile way to present what was being said. It took away all credibility from Shyla.
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James Broughton says:
April 14, 2015 at 6:24 am
Lloyd, hang on in there. That was the advice given to me by my bishop when I was in full-time ministry in the Anglican church. You have some good friends. I particularly liked Melka’s comment. Yes, I do want to see JWs won for Christ but not at the expense of their integrity. I recommend a book “When a Church becomes a Cult” written by a fellow Anglican Stephen Wookey who shows how easy it is for a mainstream church to become as repressive as a cult and I am not surprised that people have been put off. Please continue with your very helpful ministry.
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Everyday Explorer says:
April 14, 2015 at 8:42 am
Cedars (Lloyd), your post took courage; I really hope it helped a bit to share your very natural depression about the bullying and threatening you’ve experienced. It’s resolutely human to feel depressed when we’re bullied and threatened.
My spouse and I respect your diligent and compassionate work greatly and do our best to raise awareness about it, and you can see from the comments previously posted here how much you facilitate others to begin their own journey of exploration. But sometimes we need to take time out to connect back with our vital core being — the core that started all this in the first place!
Of course you have the right to block abusive people; I, personally, wouldn’t engage with them any further but I know that can be easier said than done. Of course you have the right not to impoverish yourself because you are an activist; I, for one, look forward to seeing your book published, and expect to pay RRP for it. But I know you know all the arguments around such issues already, really.
Perhaps take a break for a short while — regroup, recover, revive. See how you feel about your personal public involvement after that break. It might just be that you need to carve out more sacrosanct ‘you time’ with yourself, your wife, child, and very close friends).
Whatever you decide, I do hope that book gets completed. And, on a professional level, please do use our email address to contact me re the possibility of placing reviews of your book in the UK media (free, naturally). [More details should you choose to privately email.]
Sending waves of positive, warm vibes to you and Dijana and your child from Everyday Explorer and Everyday Explorer Spouse (yes, we’ve got to find a new name for that one!)
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Boonfleeky says:
April 14, 2015 at 8:52 am
Hang tough Brotha. Your work is invaluable. You’ve helped folks like me in the process of “waking up” and understanding that one can have a positive, productive life outside this harmful cult.
I’m sorry you have to deal with the ill will but you’re too vital to the cause, don’t let them wear you down.
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Cedars says:
April 14, 2015 at 10:05 am
I’d like to thank all my readers for the kind words of support and encouragement. Though this episode has been very draining, I am recovering well with Dijana’s support and coaching. I can’t walk away from my activism because it’s too important to me, but I think there is scope to manage myself better – perhaps by giving myself 1 or 2 days off each week where I don’t answer emails or go on Facebook. Whatever solution I arrive at, I really do appreciate the kind sentiments I’ve received, which strengthen my resolve to continue.
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Nay Franz says:
April 16, 2015 at 7:39 am
Thank you so much for your work that help me a lot awaking. Big love from Canada to you and your little family :)
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Louis says:
April 14, 2015 at 11:35 am
Lloyd and Dijana, I am sorry to hear that you are having to experience such behavior. This is saddening and is a bit unsettling news. Commentor Melka and several others have touched on several of my same sentiments to you. I and my family personally cannot express enough how thankful we are for all that you have done up to this point for exposing the others to TTAT. Right next to JWFacts, your videos were the first we came across after leaving the cult. Your videos show that there is life (a good life) after the Witchtower, and that an “apostate” is not a miserable hateful person. But a happy, loving individual you cares about others; breaking the stereotype created by the WT. You present information in a way that is palatable. I could go on and on, but would like to say I hope the best for you and the family in whatever decision you make. You are truly giving a voice to the silent majority.
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Jenh says:
April 14, 2015 at 11:42 am
I appreciate all you have done to bring to light so many things for me, individually. You have shared your story and your family, and I appreciate that. I am no longer a JW, and always struggled with it until I found your youtube channel. I check back daily to watch videos, I watch past videos. It is tough to be so public. Sending positive thoughts and American hugs to you and your family.
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Tim says:
April 14, 2015 at 5:06 pm
Greetings from Canada! Lloyd, I have never left a comment on your site but today I feel I must. When I read your post today it broke my heart. The hatred some have shown towards you has made me rethink the loyalty I expected from all Ex-JW’s. Evidently there is a subculture whose only mission is to subvert others, just the same as it was in the Organization, some old habits are hard to shake. Over the past 15 months I have developed a health condition which has forced me to take a leave of absence from work which has given me much extra time, which gave the the incredible opportunity to find your site. I have been disassociated since 1995, I am a 3rd generation JW, my Grandfather was a District Overseer, my Father an Elder was always the PO (I understand this title has now changed), both parents and my Sister were pioneers, I have cousins in the Canadian Branch serving on the Legal Committee. Both my parents are close friends with David and Linda Splane since the early 80’s when he was our Circuit Overseer. Personally I never bought into any of the teachings, the first thing I remember is when we had to put in a sticker over a paragraph in the Revelation book with a “new light”, that just did not seem right. Lloyd, I want you to know I also suffer from depression and it is a direct result of this destructive decisive cult. I attempted suicide twice thinking it would be better to leave this world behind and wake up in the Resurrection than have to live a lie to myself. The point I am trying to make is you have helped me tremendously. I find both yourself and Eric at JWStruggle to be very approachable in your manner. Although we have never had any direct communication between us I do consider you a friend. Thank you for your activism, it has made a positive difference in my life. I wish you nothing but happiness to you, your Wife and Daughter.
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James Broughton says:
April 16, 2015 at 9:18 am
Tim, that was a beautiful and uplifting comment. You might like to see my earlier comment to Lloyd.
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Leigh says:
April 14, 2015 at 6:50 pm
I am sorry to hear you are being attacked by some folks on youtube. I saw a couple of the videos and those folks appear to be unstable. I absolutely love your site and videos and I often redirect folks to your material. You do a great job of presenting your ideas and opinions. My teenage stepdaughter has just recently “woke up” from the JW cult and has watched a couple of your videos and thinks you are great. You don’t come off as being fanatical or condescending. Take care of yourself and your family. Don’t let them get you down, sending hugs from the USA.
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Michele says:
April 14, 2015 at 7:28 pm
I just wanted to say “thanks” for all your hard work on this site. I look forward to new updates, which are very well articulated and presented. I was born in but left about 10 years ago. It is still a struggle dealing/not dealing with my family. I just want you to know I appreciate your effort and take comfort in knowing that I’m not alone. I think I speak for many ex jws in saying that you are the most respectful and intelligent voice out there. Don’t let the haters bring you down.
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JudyQ says:
April 14, 2015 at 8:30 pm
I also feel the need to make a comment, although I have not done so in the past. My husband and I left together almost a year ago. We’ve found your witty, insightful, well researched articles and videos unquantifiably helpful, reassuring us that we made the right decision. I echo everyone else’s comments about how much we truly understand and appreciate the hard work you put into all that you do.
Sadly, it is very difficult for some to leave behind the thoughts and attitudes so prevalent in the organization. Judgement, character assassination, false accusation- are these not the hallmarks of what we left behind? It speaks more to the character of the accuser than the accused.
We’ve all been at conventions when protesters were outside with placards and megaphones- we ignored them as instructed, feeling all the more righteous, convinced by the “persecution” that this was God’s organization. It’s been proven time and again to be, at best, a minimally effective technique in “waking people up”. One has to question if “waking people up” is the motivation of such ones or is their rage at being duped for so long, understandable though it may be, just uncontrolled.
“Divide and conquer” is one of the most effective weapons in battle. Sadly, targeting each other can make us less, not more, effective in exposing the falsehoods of the organization.
Everyone is entitled to state their opinion in a respectful way- bullying does not have to be tolerated and I applaud you for standing up against it. It can be hard but a truly mature, brave person will do it.
You’re family, health and mental health come first- thought we all value the work you do, you need to take time for yourself and your family. You can’t give if the well is dry- though we’ll be missing your thoughts if you take some time away, it’s essential to do so if you want to keep doing this work that you truly excel at and that we all value so highly.
Jim and I send you, Dijana and Jessica our warmest wishes, thoughts and hugs from Canada!!!
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Diana says:
April 14, 2015 at 10:33 pm
I’m terribly sorry to hear this but very glad I stumbled upon it. I almost got involved with a Mike and Kim in my desperation for emotional support. But I saw them in a youtube video and they seemed a little “off” to me. I also didn’t want to connect with ex- JWs that were still religious. It seemed like another dead end to me. However, I waver in my decision because I’m left so utterly alone. This has strengthened my resolve to look elsewhere for support. I have received some emotional support from atheists in Canada. There’s just no accounting for the behavior of some. Religion messes over people’s minds. I fear I will not live long enough to get myself untwisted. I’m so sorry you’re dealing with so much crazy making behavior from religious opposers. But you seem to have a good head about these things. Please know that there are people like me who find these articles life saving and are filled with gratitude that you have made the effort. It takes great strength and courage to do what you have done. Thank you.
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Doily says:
April 14, 2015 at 11:52 pm
John, the great Mark Twain said, “Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured.”
As a former JW from Lancashire, England, I appreciate your work. But if it’s damaging you and your dearest, why carry on? It’s YOUR life. You’re not even going to get a gold watch and carriage clock for your efforts. That said I can feel your purpose in doing this. Take comfort in knowing the WTS is dying. Even when it sinks below the waterline, thousands will still cling to its festering remains. Whenever you get despondent due to venomous lowlife, think of the Twain quote.
Doily.
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Searcher says:
April 15, 2015 at 7:54 am
Hi Lloyd,
First, I want to thank you (and your family) for all the time you have spent on this site in encouraging others by revealing the lies, deception, and untruth of the “Truth”. JOB WELL DONE!!!
I made a comment here that was presumptuous about one of your positions. You respectfully rebutted that I was incorrect in my assumption. I didn’t take offense, because we are two different people with two different interpretations. We can live together in this world with differing opinions.
As for those that cannot accept your opinions, I say, “Consider the source!” Obviously, these detractors are speaking from a religiously dogmatic point of view, and easily have their feelings hurt when someone disagrees with them. They think they’re sane and everybody who disagrees with them is either crazy or evil. Sound familiar? When you put yourself in a public light, such as this blog, there will always be detractors that WILL NOT rest without verbally beating a retraction out of you (or physically if they could). Again, sound familiar? Throughout history, there have always been religious bully-boys like the GB and religious tyrants of Islamic, Christian, and Jewish persuasions. Unfortunately, I believe there always will be according to human nature. If they aren’t crazy, then religious tyrants have always used religion for power by misleading the uneducated masses. Once again, sound familiar?
Don’t let these people stop you from helping those who so deservedly need the support, help, and relief from religious tyrants such as the GB. You have my support and can do anything you like with a donation from me (I’m giving $25US after this posting). Buy a pint of beer or bottle of wine if you would like! You earned it. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!!
Mike (aka: Searcher)
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JKL says:
April 15, 2015 at 12:21 pm
Dear friend.
I write friend, Lloyd, because i consider you as my friend. And that is so, even though we have never met in person nor online. You see, this is my first time to write a comment on an ex-JW forum. But after your post and the many sweet comments on your behalf, i just had to.
I ended my activities with JW not so long ago. My convictions had become very different from that of JW, so i saw no other way. That has left me almost completely isolated, since i had no friends not being JW, and because my limited size JW family find it difficult to deal with the situation. So even though i have no wish to see the Watchtower-religion destroyed as such, on so many levels i see myself as a classic victim of a cult. So after ending my activities with JW, i was curious to see if there were others out there like me. And i was shocked, but in a good way. I just did not know. There are so many out there with similar experiences and research like me. Friends like you. That helps me a lot. I have read your block for a few months now, and i really enjoy it. You and your co-writers are intelligent but modest. Like me you seek truth, facts. You have skills that are very valuable, like using modern technology, communication etc. But most importantly, you are willing to spend yourself. We are so many that appreciate that. Thank you.
I would love it if you continue writing. But i am not you. So whether you decide to continue, slow down or stop, it will be met with understanding and respect.
Again. Thank you so much for all your work untill now. And thanks to your family too.
JKL
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GEM says:
April 16, 2015 at 1:06 am
Dear Lloyd, Dijana and Jessica:
What a lovely little family, You have. Please ignore personal attacks from folk who have basic psychiatric problems, fuelled by Religious mania.
My partner was the subject of Police “enfitment” ten years ago. Three police officers lied under oath and bore false witness. I am about to go on a surprise holiday (they don’t know it) to Cuba…out of appreciation for the ONE officer that stood by my partner and saved a tragic suicide attempt on the Brecon Beacons.
Ten years on we have weathered the hate of the ignorant, built a successful, family run business and found out who our “True” friends are. It has strengthened us to look through the “magnifying glass” again and look at “the Truth” of all things from many different angles. Suddenly our Kaleidoscope is pretty, ever changing and we humbly accept our different circumstances and views as part of the rich Tapestry of Life.
At the risk of treading on toes here, a certain person said: “You will know the Truth and The Truth will set you free….” OK…I am not an Atheist, I feel I am probably an Agnostic now .. but veering towards the love of a Higher Power, A Creator if You will. But, that is my Comfort Platform.
What can possible be wrong Lloyd…if you are seeking to establish the Truth in All Things.
Ignore the Sickos who would pull you down and try to plant their own venomous creed to all that would listen to or read it.
Stick up for the real Truth…and, at the same time let us be humble too, when we are proved to be wrong.
Scrum down and large shoulders for you All… from this side of my PC!
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Deborah Baumbarger says:
April 16, 2015 at 5:56 am
John, although I totally understand your inner sadness and frustration when you are being verbally attacked by people without cause, you should try to consider the source.
You are doing a fine job helping people wake up to the fact that the Watchtower is a man made cult that is deceiving millions!
Thanks for all of your videos.
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Zandrea says:
April 16, 2015 at 7:55 pm
You’re doing a good thing John. My sanity is in part due to you and your work.
I love the work you do and big up to your wife for supporting you…
From Jamaica
With one love…
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zeebo says:
April 17, 2015 at 5:16 am
Sad to see the XJW front crumble at the same time the WT get a victory in court.
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BB5179 says:
April 17, 2015 at 5:36 am
Lloyd,
What can i say…. Iam from the UK also and have been out for just over a year… It was your site that helped me get out… Your site that has helped me get my wife and children out, and your site that has helped me get over the emotional stress.. I have seen parts of Mike and Kims youtube tirade against you and it is absolutely disgusting and utter utter rubbish… Your honest and emotional comments have helped me and my family no end and probably saved our lives… I have watched some of Mike and Kims videos before this and felt they were very odd and best stayed away from… They are not helping they just come off as nuts….. Please do not let them and people like them get you down, take a break whenever you need to have time for yourself…. I suffer from depression so i know what you are going though… SO if felt i had to comment to let you know that you are not alone my friend.. I do count you as one even though we have never met.. Why because when i was in my darkest hour of need and wondering how i could have fallen for such a cult.. You were always there and helped with your comments and videos and in my mind thats what friend are for… Now its time to return the favour we are all here for you and your family… All the best from Me and mine…. AND A BIG BIG THANK YOU for being one of the best friends ive ever had!!!
BB5179
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Ted says:
April 17, 2015 at 3:25 pm
zeebo, Check out the number of sites, exposing WT,
“Absurdities”.
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Garrett says:
April 17, 2015 at 9:21 pm
I’m stunned. I never would have thought that others who left don’t appreciate all you have done like I do. I really don’t get it.
You wound think that people who left a high pressure control group would be the last ones to want to inflict that on others.
I would recommend just posting your blog and podcast and cutting yourself off from others posts and comments. Who needs em?
But people like me who left definitely need you .
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anonymous says:
April 18, 2015 at 3:56 am
I didn’t know Tony Prime had a video out where he was attacking Lloyd until I saw Lloyd’s article here so out of curiosity, I watched Tony’s video several times. I also went to Joel’s unwitness video that Tony said that Lloyd had spent all day going back and forth with a guy by the name of David and that David accused Lloyd of making comments and then deleting them so that David had saved all the comments that Lloyd had removed and reposted them so I read all the comments that Lloyd had made that day and also David’s comments and what I saw from David’s comments were nothing but attacks on Lloyd saying that Lloyd thought he was an elder still and all he wanted was money and on and on. It was nothing but character assignations against Lloyd because it seemed Lloyd had taken Joel’s video as against Lloyd’s video personally on how he couldn’t support “agressive” activism anymore. That is what that David character was so mad about. That David character could have just said that they agreed to disagree but no, he went on and on with his cruel comments about Lloyd. Lloyd’s comments were short and not cruel but that David’s comments were cruel and very long. Then Mike and Kim chimed in with their comments about Lloyd’s making money etc.
I feel sorry for Tony. It seems that he’s very angry but it seems that most of his anger is directed at Lloyd because Lloyd has said that if it weren’t for the generous donations from some people, that he wouldn’t be able to spend as much time on his videos. I have seen Eric’s JWstruggle video where he was also asking if people could help him so he could do better videos too. Others also depend on donations. When I saw Eric’s video, I sent him some money. I don’t think Eric is making money when he says that with a few bucks, he can update his camera. That to me, tells me that these guys are doing their work for the love of the people still stuck in the cult but that they are poor, like the rest of us.
Mike and Kim had a donation button on their web site and they took it down because they were accused of “making money” but they said all they got was something like $19 so it wasn’t worth the grief they got so they took the donation money button down. Also, when they first opened up their web site, they said that somebody donated the money to fund the web site for a year or they could never have done it so obviously it is very expensive to operate and own a web site such as jwsurvey. Lloyd has never said how much time he spends on this web site and how much time he spends reading literature and watching videos so he can come up with quality videos and he has never said how much time it takes away from his family and his paying job of translating either and he could do that, but hasn’t.
Tony Prime should take a step back and reason on what he said in that video. If he reasoned it all out, there was no reason for that video. It is very sad and there was nothing for Lloyd to do but explain his side of it.
By the way, when I first came into the “truth”, I wanted to be a pioneer and missionary. Anybody in the “truth” who really loves it, would want to be an elder if they are a young man. We all loved it until we learned that the “truth” really wasn’t the “truth” after all.
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Lola says:
April 19, 2015 at 8:56 pm
What’s really sad is that Tony Prime made an animated baby Cedars photo and posted it on Facebook, saying that the doctor recommended terminating the fetus. This is just unacceptable!!! Do these people even realize their own cruelty and inhumanity? THEY are behaving like sociopaths…NOT Cedars!
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Charles Costante says:
April 19, 2015 at 10:57 pm
That’s appalling, Lola! The only thing I’ve seen of his was the first 5 minutes or so of a YouTube video where he gate crashed one of the 2015 Memorial celebrations in the States. I didn’t bother to watch the whole thing because I found it rather embarrassing.
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Melka says:
April 18, 2015 at 5:28 am
@Anonymous,
I watched the video too since I was home sick, and all I saw an attempted smear campaign. But I also feel bad for Tony Prime. It seems like he’s a pawn, but when you just take a step back, it doesn’t make sense. But from what the comments suggest, is there is a little group on a vicious witch hunt, and if you suggest anything “against” their accusations, you’re against them.
But regarding the donations with they actually made a huge deal about: When I first woke up and was trying to find out what was really going on in the world of politics, I couldn’t find out a clear story or believe anything I was reading, because I found out all the tv stations and radio stations and media in general was being bought off by someone who decides what the public is supposed to read and hear about. It’s all propaganda, so my favorite radio station and news station on the internet is independently run, and I kid you not, they ask for donations probably once every 10 minutes. But I donate, because that’s the only way they can operate, obviously. Nobody’s buying them off. And the insults about how Cedars travels but doesn’t have a fridge. It made my heart hurt. Here he goes out and spends his own money to travel and interview people, and the quality of information he puts out is so good, that’s why people wake up. It’s not someone sitting on their couch telling someone else their “opinions”, there’s always tons of research involved. That’s why this whole thing makes me so furious. What these people are doing is just plain idiotic. They’re not putting out the same kind of material, we better hope they’re not successful in the smear campaign they’re running. We both woke up because of this website.
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Faded says:
April 19, 2015 at 10:31 am
How horrible that people treated you in such a disrespectful manner. I strongly feel if they don’t like what you are posting, why can’t they just move on? Ugh.
I, for one, appreciate your YouTube videos and this blog so much, and do think of you as a friend. Your blog and videos have helped me tremendously as I escaped this horrible religion. Any ex JW worth their salt, knows the hard work and time that you put into to your videos and blog. Studying for meetings was a cakewalk compared to the study and research you’re doing NOW in your activism.
I get the depression. I get that you had a moment and wanted to tell someone off on Facebook or a YouTube comment. You work hard, your intentions are pure, who wouldn’t be hurt and angry and depressed when one is attacked trying to help others???
I say those who attack are those who have serious issues. Maybe they’re just disgruntled disfellowshipped people that still want to be witnesses and can’t, so they keep the mentality and try to form their own religious beliefs and shoot down any who don’t agree. In other words, they’re just disfellowshipped ‘wanna be’ witnesses with a wacky agenda.
Lloyd, you’ve completely and successfully left this cult with a sound mind and heart. The nutcases don’t like that. I left. I wish nothing bad on any practicing witness. I see you don’t either. But these wacky ex witnesses just keep hating and bashing and carrying on with their nutty agendas, rather than exposing the “truth” for what it is. Falsehood. Man made doctrine. Baloney. Wacky teachings that keep changing with “new light”.
I’ve spent years struggling with depression and struggled being raised in a religion that constantly made me feel I wasn’t good enough. That I was certain to die if I didn’t make all the meetings or get the required field service time in. Recipe for depression if you ask me. Then add disfellowshipping and complete estrangement from family. THAT’S not depressing. :/
My sincere hope is that you take care of yourself and your wife and daughter. Understand the haters are projecting their hatred of themselves onto you. Ridiculous. Of course it’s hurtful. These people haven’t worked through their issues and attack the one person who makes sense. You.
I wish you all the best, and if I were rich, I’d buy you a house!! That’s how much gratitude I have for all the work you’ve done.
Take care, Lloyd. Please know you are respected and held in high esteem by many.
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Gameisover says:
April 20, 2015 at 4:06 am
I just posted a comment that got lost
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Stephen says:
April 21, 2015 at 9:58 am
Every once in awhile I find myself presented with a situation that warrants attention. I believe this to be one of those occasions. I say these words with as much objectivity as I can.
Hello Mr. Cedar;
My girlfriend was trapped within the JW organization for the first 35 yrs of her life(literally trapped) as only a JW could know what I mean. She introduced me to your You Tube shows over these last couple years and out of all the variety of peoples videos she has shown me I do think yours offer the most effecient methods of peeling away the layers of crud this organization stacks in ones being.
I thank you for all your great words of wisdom and thank you for your compassion and approach towards this sensitive topic. I believe in your approach, it is rooted with kindness and empathy. I have seen first hand the results of your method unpacking all the damaging luggage that my girlfriend has had to carry around for so long. So I say thank you
In return for your kindness, generosity and selfless acts. I wish to give you what I can. You and your family are always welcome in my home and if I am lucky enough to ever get the opportunity to help you in any way I surely will.
Some things I have learned:
The past is regret and the future is fear so all I have is now.
I can not control outside events, I can only control how I react to those events
the eyeball can not look at itself, meaning we all need each other to for self evaluation.
I have more but will save those for another time. The bottom line is, I wish you and your family well, and will always be grateful for your hard work.
Peas Out
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Stacey says:
April 21, 2015 at 10:30 am
I have been reading the articles you post and watching your videos for the past few months. While I don’t agree with everything you have to say, I still enjoy them and have found them really helpful in what has been a very stressful time in my life. I appreciate very much all of the hard work you put in to helping people like myself wake up to the fact that they have been involved in a religion that is not chosen by God, but a harmful, deceptive cult that breaks up families. I have tried to watch Mike and Kim, but found them very grating and they come across in an unintelligent way. You come across as someone who is informed, well read, and you present your information with warmth and humor. I am sorry you have had to suffer at the hands of others who I am sure are just jealous of your abilities, but I hope you will be able to continue your work, as there are a lot of us out here who appreciate it!
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Gameisover says:
April 23, 2015 at 9:25 am
Where is my post of April 20th? Eliminated, lost, spammed?
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Cedars says:
April 23, 2015 at 9:53 am
The only comment you made on April 20th that shows up on our records is “I just posted a comment that got lost.”
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Katie Tuck says:
April 24, 2015 at 5:24 am
So sad that we escaped from one group of loveless people to the outside world, then found that Jehovahs witnesses are partially right in saying that there’s no love in the world.
I’m also annoyed by the over righteous that have jumped ship to another narrow mindset.
John, you are a valuable person to a lot of us in the ex-jw arena. Thank you for bearing your soul. It makes the opposition I get from ex-jws who have turned christian, easier to bear.
I hope you recover from this undeserved tirade of abuse soon.
I just wanted you to know that I care.
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ann says:
April 27, 2015 at 6:13 am
There are many wonderful / encouraging comments left here for you . I can’t anything more except….take care of your little family , they must come first in everything you do, but sadly you will not be able to give them 100% of yourself until you learn to take care of you. They are and should be your first priority .
These people who make nasty comments are more to be pitied …they are lonely /sad/ angry / frustrated individuals. People who are secure /happy / loving /content do not behave towards like they are towards you …even if you disagree with someone you don’t behave like they do . ex JW for over 30 years …BTW way I enjoy your YouTube videos. Take care from an old granny .
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frankie fernandez says:
May 1, 2015 at 12:42 pm
MY VERY DEAR FRIENDS WE MUST DECIDE IF SOMETHING BEFORE US IS A STUMBLING BLOCK OR A STEPPING STONE.THERES AN OLD RUSSIAN SAYING” A HAMMER WILL CRUSH GLASS OR MOLD IRON” YOU MUST BE DETERMINED TO HAVE AN IRON WILL , NERVES OF STEEL, BALLANCED WITH A HEART OF GOLD. NEVER , NEVER , EVER GIVE UP. YOU MUST HAVE HIGH SELF ESTEME, HIGH SELF WORTH AND HIGH SELF RESPECT.I WAS BAPTIZED IN 74. INSPITE OF MY TRUE REPENTANCE I WAS DISFELLOWSHIPPED. THE IRONY OF THE WHOLE THING IS THAT ONE OF THE ELDERS ON MY JUDICIAL COMITTEE WAS ALSO DISFELLOSHIPPED FOR ADULTRY ONLY A FEW MONTHS AFTER MYSELF. WHILE HE WAS JUDGING ME HE WAS COMITTNG FORNICATION. I’VE BEEN OUT FOR 10 YEARS. IT’ BEEN ONE OF THE BEST THINGS THATS EVER HAPPENED IN MY LIFE. THE HEAVY LOAD OF THE WT IS OFF MY BACK. HOW GREAT IT IS TO BE FREE OF THOSE CONTROL FREAKS. PRAY FOR COURAGE, STRENGTH AND WISDOM. MY LOVE TO ONE AND ALL.
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Mr Blue says:
May 2, 2015 at 1:20 pm
I just wanted to thank you for all your efforts and well written articles. You are by far my favourite EX-JW whistle blower and you have helped me tremendously with my own struggles of undue influence. It saddens me to know you’re going through abuse from people that are old enough to know better. I struggle to believe that after escaping such a dangerous cult and loosing so much (family contact), you have to suffer the indignity of slanderous attacks from ex-jw’s on youtube. I am an atheist like you and wouldn’t dream of attacking my enemies so publicly and with so much vitriol, yet it seems to come so easily and shamelessly from supposed “christians”
Please know that you have my full support and if theres anything I can do to help, please don’t hesitate to contact me. Don’t give up Lloyd, you’re an inspiration. All the best.
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garyjonesy says:
May 5, 2015 at 7:04 am
A puddle will always be a puddle.
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N Watts says:
May 6, 2015 at 12:12 am
I am so sorry to hear this. You know it is strange myself and my mom could never watch any of Mike & Kim’s videos. They seem a bit extreme and weird. I always enjoy your videos and I am so sorry that they have attacked you. I pray that they stop with this attack on you. I pray for your depression and that you are able to get along with your great work. You have contributed so greatly in the ExJW community and I pray you don’t allow this to stop you. I hope that your wife is able to be stress free and that these people leave you guys alone. This is sick that they would go this far. My heart goes out to you and your family. Please stay strong. :-)
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The irony says:
May 7, 2015 at 8:10 am
The irony is amazing to me. You have been deceived, not only because you allowed yourself to be, but because you invited it. Most activists have a mission and will stop at nothing in their attempt to see it through. You see, just because someone claims to be something online does not mean they are. Oh, BTW, I am an astronaut (see how easy that is). You allowed yourself to be used by fundies who want to take down JW for their own selfish (and often quite destructive purpose). The enemy of your enemy is NOT your friend. Funny, JW (regardless of what some people claim) do not take part in these false smear campaigns. Here’s an idea – leave people alone. “You knew it was a crocodile when you were offered a ride across the river”. It is hard to imagine you are truly this surprised. I do wish you healing for your depression and peace for your family. God can help with that. . .
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Excelsior! says:
May 14, 2015 at 4:57 am
The irony,
The WTBTS have engaged in smear campaigns!
What about describing the United Nations as a scarlet coloured wild beast? Oh, and then they go and join it as an NGO!
What about describing people of other faiths and atheists as worthy of having their eyes pecked out by birds when Armageddon comes?
The list goes on and on
Anyone who is not a Jehovah’s Witness gets smeared!
Your lack of compassion and reasoning skills marks you as a fully paid up member of this disgusting cult.
DO YOUR RESEARCH!
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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← Older Comments
The irony says:
May 7, 2015 at 8:12 am
The irony is amazing to me. You have been deceived, not only because you allowed yourself to be, but because you invited it. Most activists have a mission and will stop at nothing in their attempt to see it through. You see, just because someone claims to be something online does not mean they are. Oh, BTW, I am an astronaut (see how easy that is). You allowed yourself to be used by fundies who want to take down JW for their own selfish (and often quite destructive purpose). The enemy of your enemy is NOT your friend. Funny, JW (regardless of what some people claim) do not take part in these false smear campaigns. Here’s an idea – leave people alone. “You knew it was a crocodile when you were offered a ride across the river”. It is hard to imagine you are truly this surprised. I do wish you healing for your depression and peace for your family. God can help with that.
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Denise Fitzpatrick says:
May 15, 2015 at 12:22 pm
No one claiming to be perfect or without flaws is telling the truth. The truth of the Bible is being taught in the Kingdom Halls of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I do not go there looking for flaws in others as I am not flawless myself. We are all just a “Piece of dust” and many may not even be a whole piece. Jesus Christ left us a model to follow his steps closely NOT perfectly. I tell many people to search the Bible for the truth that sets men free. If one is searching for flaws in others, they are probably not searching for the Truth of God’s word, the Bible. They are finding what they are searching for. When I search for the knowledge of the Bible, I find it. I am not on a hunt to find the imperfections of others. We should continue to search for what really matters and that is not finding the faults of others. We must answer for our selves and not for the actions of others. The people are not perfect or without flaws, but the word of God, is perfect without flaws. Lets get the rafter out of our own eye, so that we can see clearly to get it out of others. The ONLY true God’s qualities are love, justice, wisdom and power and the GREATEST IS LOVE. Let’s focus on that.
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Unbaptised JW (adult) says:
May 7, 2015 at 8:44 am
One thing all mankind is certain of is death. Life is so short. It makes hardly any difference when one dies before their “intended time”. Who decides what is/is – not a higher purpose for death before one’s time? It is a matter of conscience, so differs for each individual. The blood issue is IMO no more an issue than the fact that we have countless illnesses with no cure. People die all the time at all ages.
As far as where an estate is left, same as above. Assets belong to s/he who has earned them and as such, where they are left after death is of individual choosing. No one else has an honest say in the matter.
Fair disclosure – I am also “The irony” below. As an adult who chooses to agree (based on bible research) with what JW believe, I would love to see an honest debate from ex JW on the topic, based on scripture, rather than opinion. Blood, assets, disfellowshipping, etc are not a good basis for declaring JW a cult (as they are either bible requirements, or prohibitions). This IMHO is where your problems arise when aligning with fundamentalists. They disagree with the doctrine and that is all. It is shameless and dishonest self promotion. Sadly I have frequently seen page after page of misinformation and smear published by certain fundamental denominations against JW. If the information is untrue, of what value is it? Nothing but a hateful tool.
I disagree with atheists (obviously, I believe in God) however, I do respect individual rights to personal choices in life. I also very much respect this writer for allowing the comment section to be opened to the public. I always hope to see ex brothers and sisters happily return. But also respect their choice to not. There is no hatred, or judgment, and no elevation of self. I would love to see a conversation based in honesty. Again I wish for you to find peace and a happy family life.
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Gareth says:
May 9, 2015 at 1:26 pm
Unbaptised JW, re: “I would love to see an honest debate from ex JW on the topic, based on scripture, …”
On the issue of blood, see: http://www.jehovahswitnessblog.com/blood-transfusions/why-jehovahs-witnesses-dont-accept-blood/
Especially part 3 for the Bible part of it. Respond there or here with your thoughts/comments on it. Or start a topic on jehovahs-witness.com if you feel up to it.
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Denise Fitzpatrick says:
May 15, 2015 at 12:23 pm
Get a hold of the REAL life! Life is everlasting.
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Denise Fitzpatrick says:
May 15, 2015 at 12:30 pm
By the way, keep studying, my friend!
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Excelsior! says:
May 9, 2015 at 10:30 am
Unbaptised JW,
Oh dear! I found your opening comments so breathtakingly offensive that I am astonished that you would write them!
Do you have proof that your God exists? So there is no proof for any “afterlife” that you choose to believe.
Therefore, when someone, like my father, dies “before his time” due to late diagnosis, most people are extremely upset about it.
Bible research just is not enough, sir. You need to research the sciences, and secular history, if you want to get to the bottom of just what the bible really is.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses are a cult because they practice cultish techniques. I would suggest reading Mr Hassan’s excellent works on the subject. There are others available too.
I would be genuinely interested in your opinion of the child sexual abuse cover ups, and the advice and restrictions attached to domestic violence.
If you are a Christian, then your duty is clear. You need to help us hold the WTBTS to account for its policies that have damaged so many people.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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Denise Fitzpatrick says:
May 15, 2015 at 12:28 pm
Why do we continue to slurr and talk against one another with no one being “Perfect”? When we do such things, it is as though, we think that we are ourselves are indeed perfect and that is sad. People will believe what they will and that is entirely their right. Talking against others is not doing anyone any good.
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Excelsior! says:
May 21, 2015 at 5:40 am
Madam,
Pointing out criminal or immoral behaviour in a religion does not imply that the one exposing these things is perfect!
Do police constables have to be perfect to arrest a criminal suspect?
Do a Judge and Jury have to be perfect to try a criminal case?
Speaking against the WTBTS is entirely proper, as it has on many occasions, acted in ways that are wrong.
I hope that this comment helps you to see the problem with your argument.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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Denise Fitzpatrick says:
May 15, 2015 at 12:36 pm
May I ask, “What do you mean”? Before his time? When would you say, his time should have been? Until he lived to be 90, 100, 103, etc? Do you think that you will ever see him again? Or can see him again? My mom and dad and other loved ones are not presently breathing at this time as well. My mom was 94 when she stopped breathing and my dad was 88. I am just “Curious” about your feelings on “Before his time”.
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Excelsior! says:
May 20, 2015 at 6:25 am
Madam,
I use the term “before his time” to refer to the expected age of people here in England. My father could have expected to live for a further decade, I should imagine. Especially as my uncle, his older brother, is now 80.
That’s one more decade to see his grandchildren grow up and enjoy his retirement.
He did not get to have that.
I hope this clarifies my comment.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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Excelsior! says:
May 20, 2015 at 6:49 am
Madam,
I shall never see my father again. He is dead.
To refer to dead people as not currently breathing tells me you believe that they will appear again somewhere.
You choose to believe that, as is your right. However, you have no proof whatsoever for your beliefs.
We know that all life on this planet is born, lives and then dies. That is the reality that we can all prove and believe as fact.
I do not expect to see or be with my father again, because once we die, then that is it!
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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Denise Fitzpatrick says:
May 15, 2015 at 12:37 pm
May I ask, “What is a cultish technique”? Its just that I have never heard of the term. Just wondering.
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Excelsior! says:
May 20, 2015 at 6:28 am
Madam,
This term refers to the techniques that cults use to control their members.
These include the “BITE model” as coined by Steve Hassan.
Behaviour control
Information control
Thought control
Emotional control
These are referred also as undue influence.
I hope this clarifies my comment.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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Karen says:
May 9, 2015 at 1:13 pm
I’m so sorry you are getting such hateful responses, John; thank you for your very insightful comments & insights! I, too, have unfriended some from FB just because I cannot allow all the unasked for negativity. It takes a tremendous toll, when I’m just trying to move forward.
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Denise Fitzpatrick says:
May 15, 2015 at 12:41 pm
All, please know that my comments here are directed to those who BELIEVE that there is a God. My questions and comments, of course would not be for those who do not believe in a Creator as being a powerful God.
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Denise Fitzpatrick says:
May 15, 2015 at 12:43 pm
Karen, the hate that he is experiencing shows that he MUST be doing something right! Jesus stated, this “My sheep will be persecuted as I was”, if they hated me they will hate you. The hate that he is experiencing was already told to the followers! If I was not being hated(Without cause, as Jesus was) then I would wonder if I REALLY belonged to him!
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Denise Fitzpatrick says:
May 15, 2015 at 12:46 pm
Well, if we are disagreeing with the words stated in the Bible, then we could not really be believers, this is why my comments and such are for those who first of all, “Believe”, and if not, it is for those who do not believe but who are seeking for something to help them to believe.(Not closed ears) Let me put it like that.
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Denise Fitzpatrick says:
May 15, 2015 at 12:48 pm
Oh well, I am leaving the site for now, but will be checking my e-mails to see if anyone wants a serious and mature conversation with me. I am not going to argue or say bad things about people though. That’s just NOT my makeup! Have a great day.
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Rainbow says:
May 16, 2015 at 1:24 am
I realized there is unimaginable pain and rage when a person is abandoned by their family and betrayed by their faith. I hope they find peace.
Lloyd, stay in grace and keep doing what you were born to do! Many thank you.
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Emmy Lou Desautell-Branco says:
May 16, 2015 at 7:15 am
Hey John,
Don’t stop.
Keep pushing
Those people a lot of them either simply are jealous of your ability to speak put so freely and well or are offended too easily by uncomfortable truths.
I have sat in the shadows reading all of it. Jaw on table and stunned by their hypocrisy. All truth is necessary every view is important and valid if this corporation is to be exposed for what it is
Like water off a ducks back
Let it be
You are right
It’s a terrible fight
A massive tug of war.
The only way
to win the fight
Is hide the truth no more!
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Clara says:
May 17, 2015 at 12:22 pm
As Aristotle once said (and no one will argue his competency) “To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.” Being criticised means you’re something, so congrats – you can be proud of yourself!
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http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/my-response-to-the-haters-and-why-i-cant-always-shake-it-off#comments
My response to the haters (and why I can’t always shake it off)
avatar
Posted on April 11, 2015
Abuse from fanatical Cedars-bashers like Tony Balchen (pictured) is beginning to take its toll
Abuse from fanatical Cedars-bashers like Tony Balchen (pictured) is beginning to take its toll
I suffer from depression, but even at my darkest moments, when my mind has briefly flirted with notions of suicide, I’ve always thought what a bad choice that would be.
There are just so many different ways a person’s life could be configured. So whenever it feels like there is no way out, I’ve always found myself able to reason that surely there MUST be another way of living that is less soul-destroying – even if the journey to that change of circumstances might be difficult.
Many of you will remember I was attacked towards the end of last year for voicing an opinion on “aggressive activism,” which is my definition for the goading, taunting and confronting of bewildered cult victims – either at places of worship or during their public preaching work – by indignant, vengeful exJWs.
In response to simply offering my opinion on this issue (doing so without naming any names), I was accused of being a stalker, a wife beater, a cult leader, a cyber-bully, and even a potential pedophile – with my baby daughter seemingly at risk from me.
As hurtful as this torrent of abuse has been, what has been even more alarming is the ease with which the ringleaders behind these accusations have managed to recruit a group of sympathizers, and manipulated these into believing that THEY are the true victims in this whole scenario – not me.
Also troubling is the complete lack of restraint and basic human decency from this mob, many of whom claim to be Christian. For example, two particularly vocal critics of mine called Mike and Kim are so passionate about bringing Jehovah’s Witnesses to Christ that they have apparently set up their own state-registered ministry.
These same people have sat in front of a camera to deliver a 90-minute tirade featuring all of the aforementioned accusations, apparently seeing no conflict with their Holy Book’s calls to “suffer evil” and “be peaceable with all men.”
Though I expect proponents of evangelical activism (“leave Watchtower and embrace our, correct version of Christianity”) to take issue with my openness about my agnosticism/atheism, I find it troubling that the likes of Mike and Kim have been so successful in exploiting the aggressive activism controversy as a smokescreen to pursue their agenda of trying to silence my agnostic views – to the point of hoodwinking even non-religious exJWs into flocking to their anti-Cedars banner.
When the backlash reached its zenith just before Christmas, I seriously considered breaking some of the tension with a light-hearted video in which I would sing a parody song aimed at debunking Mike and Kim’s accusation that I am obsessed with their daughter, who previously helped me with my work. I envisioned a video in which I would be seated at a piano, Gary Barlow-style, singing plaintively to a framed picture of her, delivering a mock confession of my love for her, and mourning that it was unrequited.
But thankfully I snapped out of doing this video when I remembered that the person in question has been known to suffer from depression. However funny the video might have been to some, and however successful it might have been at rubbishing the claims that I was fixated with this girl, how would I have felt if she had committed suicide soon after it was circulated? I would have felt utterly devastated, and responsible for her loss.
All about the money?
Since all of that, there has been a fresh wave of attacks. Apparently my already-long list of fabricated/embellished crimes has been added to, with claims that I am profiteering from my work as an activist (to the tune of over $10,000 per year), that I live in a “hole” of a country, that I make my wife work while I do nothing, that I “disfellowship” people who disagree with me, that I am fat and ugly (well, maybe that’s true), and that I have been too ready to defend myself in conversations with trolls on Facebook and YouTube.
I’ve mostly been able to shrug off all this mud-slinging, knowing full well I have nothing to hide.
As far as my finances are concerned – yes I have Google ads on my website, but so does JWfacts. Yes I have a PayPal button for donations, but so does JWstruggle (and a LOT of other exJW websites, none of which seem to be under siege for the heresy of accepting money). And I also plead guilty to having a Patreon button at the end of my videos for people who want to donate to my work – but nobody is forced to click through and pledge donations.
My articles and videos are available to people entirely free of charge, and will remain so.
Any proceeds from Google Ad impressions* ($125 per month), YouTube ad impressions ($110 per month), or regular donations ($63 per month) get ploughed straight into my business to help pay for new equipment and justify the considerable time spent away from my regular job (translating and proofreading) while doing research and producing content. (For example, my 2-hour rebuttal video to the Gerrit Losch JW broadcasting episode took three days to put together, which would be hard to justify if it wasn’t part of my job.)
There have been occasions where large, one-off donations have been made either to help our family (most notably when we had Jessica’s baby shower) or to assist with my activism (i.e. when two large donations were received to help fund our trip to London for the conference on undue influence) – but this money has never come with strings attached, i.e. that I must endorse Christianity and stay silent about my unbelief. My supporters have simply been willing to help out as the need arises, and they have been placed under no compulsion to do so.
Unlike many of the people who are styling me as a rich cult leader sponging off gormless followers and abuse victims, I don’t yet have a fridge, a TV, a sofa or a kitchen. I REALLY AM doing my activism because I want to free people both now and in the future from cult indoctrination. My work is offered freely, and I don’t see why I should be made to turn down acts of kindness when these are extended simply to appease my critics.
The only work I ever intend to charge for will be my book, which I will aim to price as reasonably as possible once it is finally finished and published. No doubt once it goes on sale I will receive a fresh wave of abuse from people who will quickly forget how much they paid to read the words of Steven Hassan, Jim Penton, Carl Olof Jonsson or Ray Franz and paint me as a greedy profiteer all over again – but it is pointless trying to keep such people happy.
Is blocking someone on Facebook “shunning?”
I have also come under fire for my practice of blocking people on Facebook who are either critical of my activism, or abusive towards me, or supportive/defensive of those who are abusive towards me. I fail to understand why I am obliged to use Facebook, not as a tool for keeping in touch with my friends and readers, but as an implement of ritual self-flagellation that I must use to entertain the scathing rants and banal sniping of my mostly-anonymous, mostly-evangelical critics on a daily basis.
Telling me I’m not allowed to block or unfriend people on Facebook who are nasty is like telling me I MUST stand and listen to random people shout at and berate me if I encounter them while out shopping. I am perfectly within my rights to walk away from any such situation and get on with whatever it was I was doing. I don’t HAVE to punish myself with nonsense just for the sake of it.
It’s worth remembering that nobody is forcing anyone to watch my videos OR read my blog articles. If you hate me and my work so much I have excellent news – you don’t HAVE to follow me or read/watch my work. You can do activism the way YOU want to do it, or find an activist whose videos and blogs are more to your liking. Or you can avoid taking in “apostate” material altogether, if that’s your problem.
And no, I am not in the business of “shunning” people who disagree with me. I am merely choosy about who my friends are. I have plenty of people on my Facebook friends list with whom I don’t see eye to eye on a range of issues, but I find they are able to put their points across without evangelizing or resorting to ad hominem insults and accusations, so I am only too happy to keep them in my circle and benefit from their perspective.
And frankly, I find the use of the word “shunning” in describing any situation other than estrangement from family or close friends to be an insult – especially by people who should know the difference between being prevented from commenting on a blog or Facebook page and having all contact with family terminated forever.
Taking its toll
Usually I am able to shrug off all the above silliness, content with the fact that I am doing the best I can for all the right motives, and making some modest headway in waking people up (if my email inbox is to be believed).
But today I was out mingling with some of my friends who live in my village, and something fairly innocuous happened that sent me spiraling into the realization that the level of abuse being directed at me from self-righteous keyboard warriors on the other side of the Atlantic really is starting to take its toll.
I didn’t feel suicidal, but I definitely felt a huge wave of sadness and futility.
I went home and talked to my wife Dijana about what I was feeling, and she told me she was feeling pressured by the situation too. Whenever I am talked about, or our family is talked about, by obsessive lunatics who are more fixated with me than they are with Watchtower, Dijana finds herself worrying and fretting over what effect this will have on me, and whether we are safe from these clearly disturbed individuals (bearing in mind we have already received two menacing cards through the post from an individual in America calling himself/herself “John Smith”).
john-smith-cards
What upsets Dijana most is that, amidst all this hatred and vitriol, she feels forced to put on a brave face for our daughter Jessica, because she is worried that if she lets her sadness show when spending time with our baby this might subconsciously rub off on her, or make her feel that she is somehow not living up to expectations.
Dijana also can’t help but feel enraged when she sees her picture (taken from our translation company website), being shared around on Facebook “hate Cedars” groups, the members of whom then speculate that she is the victim of an oppressive, abusive husband. If she were herself an outspoken activist, or vocal about anything beyond whale conservation, she could perhaps understand all the scrutiny – but she is content to let me get on with my activism and focus on being a mother, and thus finds it all very intrusive.
This conversation with Dijana, and the realization that the fanatical obsessions of a few troubled individuals in America are having a tangible impact on our family has led to my writing this article by way of pleading with any exJWs out there who might have been swayed by my attackers to apply some logic and reason, and show some compassion.
I am not a cult leader. I am not a leader of any sort, and would repudiate any attempts to make me one. I am an ordinary man with a wife and daughter who just happens to be an activist against a cruel cult. And yes, I happen to not be religious.
Of course I have made mistakes, and perhaps gone too far at times when confronting trolls and critics on Facebook and YouTube – but nothing I have said or done has even remotely warranted the tsunami of hatred and vitriol that has been directed against me and my family over the past few months.
A plea for decency
All I ask of my fellow ex cult-members is some basic human decency – the same instincts of solidarity and compassion that made me pull back from making a stupid piano video that I would have almost certainly regretted.
I am not a suicide threat, and my depression is manageable, but I do have a wife and baby daughter – and when you attack me with completely unfounded and specious allegations, you attack them as well. Dijana in particular really does feel the reverberations, to the point of wanting to write to some of the ringleaders herself.
It has long been a notable irony that the majority of opposition to my activism work comes, not from Watchtower or Jehovah’s Witnesses, but from my fellow ex-JWs. I’ve noticed from conversations with activists against other cults that this is not an isolated phenomenon. People who have exited other high-control groups have also been known to turn on each other, and make each other scapegoats for their issues and frustrations.
If it were only me who was taking the heat for having an opinion, and not being afraid to voice it, I think I could handle much of what I’ve been subjected to – content to simply block persistent trolls and fanatics who are hell-bent on character-assassinating me.
But when it starts to affect my family, I do feel a need to draw the line. This abuse has to stop. If you happen to be involved in any way, I implore you to please find something or someone else who is worthy of your frustrations. There are seven men in Brooklyn who export truckloads of pain and misery on a daily basis that I can strongly recommend.
new-cedars-signature2
*An ad impression is when an ad is shown on a page or video. Simply by having the ad appear on the blog page you are reading, or the YouTube video you are watching, I receive a small amount of money from Google, who in turn receive money from the company whose ad was shown.
http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/my-response-to-the-haters-and-why-i-cant-always-shake-it-off#comments
Newer Comments →
rusty says:
April 19, 2015 at 4:11 am
Unfortunately we will never see an apology because they would have to admit they were wrong, which would never happen.
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JJ says:
April 20, 2015 at 4:28 am
How true!
I used to think it was just the local elders that I had to deal with that would never apologize. The ‘stink’ goes all the way to the head.
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Charles Costante says:
April 19, 2015 at 4:42 am
It’s outrageous! They should be forced to apologise. I suppose the only thing they can plead is stupidity.
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Isaac Harris says:
April 19, 2015 at 5:10 am
It be interesting if he tried to sue them over this. If the media reported on it, it might make others wonder if the Society had done this elsewhere.
I wish I still had the emails I received from scientists who were misquoted in the Creation Book. That could have been added to evidence for their deceptive practices. :)
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Charles Costante says:
April 19, 2015 at 3:23 pm
I do hope they do sue, Isaac. The more they are exposed for the liars they are, the better!
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dubonnet says:
April 19, 2015 at 5:14 am
Hi Cedar,
for electronique edition : english, french or spanish : it’s ok.
for paper format .pdf, today in english, yes change, but in french and spanish : NO
best regards
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Ted says:
April 19, 2015 at 6:02 am
More deception and without the backing of the cited authority
namely Mr, Rama Singh.
Their greatest deception is that they are God’s Organisation
a claim that’s made without a shred of support or credibility
save the monotonous and continual repetition of it in their
publications.
“It would not be Impossible to prove with sufficient REPETITION
and a psychological understanding of the people concerned,
that a square is in fact a circle.”—Joseph Goebbels.
“The most brilliant propagandist techniques would yield no success
unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind. Constantly
and with unflagging attention, it must confine itself to a few points
and REPEAT them OVER and OVER ” — Adolph Hitler.h
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Susan says:
April 19, 2015 at 6:32 am
The problem is that the damage had already been done. Millions of their followers had read the original deceptive quote, and barely anyone will ever learn about how their organization once again blatantly misquoted a scientist. Clearly their argument for creation is weak as they again resorted to twisting the truth to back up their faulty reasoning. As for an apology or a retraction, they are far too proud for that.
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kat says:
April 19, 2015 at 7:17 am
the GB of the WT inc are deceptive and should have been sued, this seems to be a practise of theirs, I really hope some of those that have been misrepresented come forward, one can only hope. sickens me how this org gets away with so much poop!
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John McAllister says:
April 19, 2015 at 7:41 am
Nice quote from the 2011 Yearbook, although in my copy it’s on page 13 not 9. Has there been some re-writing of this book going on?
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Cedars says:
April 19, 2015 at 9:42 am
Well spotted John! I’ve fixed it! :)
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airborne says:
April 19, 2015 at 9:35 am
Very interesting. Basically the GB lie ALL THE TIME.
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Octavio says:
April 19, 2015 at 9:42 am
interestingly, in the Spanish version we still see the original text (at least until now). The GB body did not correct it yet. May be it will remain because they think that the latin community ignores this stuff.
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Octavio says:
April 19, 2015 at 9:59 am
I have noticed that french and portugues versions of Awake still have the questioned text in page 3.
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
April 19, 2015 at 12:50 pm
Kinyarwanda version of Awake! we call in our language “Nimukanguke!” still has the questioned quotation, too ( http://wol.jw.org/rw/wol/d/r127/lp-yw/102015002 )
Let us hope Awake! writers will AWAKE! and remove the quotation even in my mother tongue. It is annoying!
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John Baptist says:
April 19, 2015 at 10:11 am
Perhaps this man can sue for defamation of character?
And I wonder who is Gerard this other respected scientist?
Could Gerard be fictions?
When you go to college and your writing articles on the subjects your taking you ABSOLUTELY need to show where your quotes came from by showing references to that effect.
If you don’t then it is considered not a completed assignment and will adversely affect your grade.
So my question why does not the watchtower society adhere to these common sense and typical protocol’s?
This is a Billion dollar a year publishing company that should not be mis-quoting famed Scientists in order to push their own philosophies.
They are printing LIES!
Let me quote from the Bible yes you can verify it here at John 8:44 where it talks about the father of the LIE as being satan the devil.
So is this professed slave class really Gods sole channel on earth now if their lying in their publications like they have so many times?
According to their direct proclamations and failures of those things to come about and lying about what other renowned people say, one can only come to one conclusion and that is they ARE NOT GODS CHOSEN RELIGION!
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JBob says:
April 19, 2015 at 10:11 am
Good catch on the misquotes of living scientists, but you should also catch this group on misquotes of Early Christian Fathers, too.
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Shelley says:
April 19, 2015 at 10:21 am
The audio copy has not been altered, so they haven’t even fully complied that that part of the request!!!!!!
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Swallowtail says:
April 19, 2015 at 10:28 am
For a group that consistently tells you to be meek and humble they certainly are resistant to making a simple apology.
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questionall451 says:
April 21, 2015 at 5:29 pm
They make such a big deal of their “humility” that it is shameful. I remember brothers at assemblies used to really lay it on thick during the prayers, “Ohhhh, deeeeeaar Jehooooooooovah! (*long pause*) We are nothing….nothing….but…dust!” I would be so second had embarrassed for them because it was so obviously phoney and artificial. Then afterward someone would always say something like, “Wasn’t that such a wonderful prayer? That brother must’ve been one of the anointed because they have such deeper love for God.” *Eye roll* Looks like some things will never change.
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Swallowtail says:
April 22, 2015 at 3:42 pm
That is hilarious questionall451! “Secondhand embarrassed” is exactly right.
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John Henry Kurtz says:
April 19, 2015 at 11:41 am
A liar is sooner caught than a cripple…
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
April 19, 2015 at 12:29 pm
If they do not apologize in this case, I hope they will apologyize for having misquoted their god Jehovah in Jeramiah 5:8.
The verse used to read (Jeremiah 5:8) . . .Horses seized with sexual heat, having [strong] testicles, they have become. They neigh each one to the wife of his companion.
and in the Version 2013 of their Bible it reads (Jeremiah 5:8) . . .They are like eager, lustful horses, Each neighing after another man’s wife.
You see, they have removed “Strong testicles” from their god’s word. It/he/she was misquoted.
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tiger123 says:
April 19, 2015 at 12:41 pm
Good article, solid information.
Thank you.
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Bo Vestergaard says:
April 19, 2015 at 1:49 pm
Who is Gerard? Why are we not allowed to know his surname?
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John Jarrett says:
April 19, 2015 at 2:10 pm
The “Gerard” they refer to is actually Gerard Hertel, one of Jehovah’s Witnesses (a fact they conveniently omit from the article). See this link for details:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/01/18/jehovahs-witness-publication-cites-professor-who-doubts-evolution-but-professor-says-he-was-unfairly-misquoted/
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Gravedigger says:
April 19, 2015 at 2:48 pm
“Gerard” is Dr. Gerard Hertel and he was not misquoted–he is one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. He is a retired entomologist/dendrologist (bug/tree scientist) with the USDA forest service and adjunct faculty with West Chester University of Pennsylvania. He has published several (20 or so) peer-reviewed scientific papers. I found his last name in the spanish translation of the magazine, as WT had removed it from the English translation for some reason. I emailed him to confirm his identity and he confirmed he was the subject of the article. Link to his credentials: http://darwin.wcupa.edu/faculty/hertel/Main/HomePage
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anonymous says:
April 19, 2015 at 2:00 pm
I don’t know how we all got here but here’s a simple example of how creatures adapt to their environment. If my cat is an indoor cat and doesn’t have to stay outside in the winter, she doesn’t develop a “winter” coat of fur. Animals who have to stay outdoors in the wintertime, develop a really thick coat of fur and as soon as the weather warms up, all the winter fur falls out. Many animals have 2 colors of fur, one color for winter and another color for summer. It all helps them to survive the environment. Animals who develop white fur in the winter and their 2nd coat is brown in the summer, makes them harder to be seen by their enemies. If polar bears lose all their ice and the temperatures warm up, they probably won’t have as thick of fur. Who can explain this, except that species adapt to their surroundings, which sounds like evolution to me.
Does the Watchtower ever bring up stuff like that? It’s always the simple answer that we couldn’t have evolved from a one-celled amoeba so evolution is just a theory and the Bible’s account has to be right but many people believe in God in that he made everything that evolved into what it is today. So, they can still believe in God and evolution.
I remember years ago, there was an article in the Awake on how if you put a live sponge in a blender and put it back in the water, the thing will glue itself back together and be alive and the very same animal. What is that, except evolution? Could any human be put in a blender and glue itself back together to be the same person they were before? I don’t think so.
So, if God was making us “perfect” in his image, why didn’t he make it so that if our bodies are put in a wood chipper, that afterwards, we could glue ourselves back together? It seems that the sponge is much more highly evolved then us humans but us humans take that live sponge and kill it and then use it to wash our floors with and use it make sponge paintings on the wall.
Most animals have better eye sight than humans. Some turtles live hundreds of years. Even clams can live to be 500 years old. Parrots can live 200 years. Some trees live thousands of years. Something’s amiss if a loving God made us to be lower than the sponge because we can’t be glued back together and with worse eye sight than almost any animal.
It would make more sense not to blame all that on a God.
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Ted says:
April 19, 2015 at 2:47 pm
Anonymous, I’m gonna have nightmares tonight
at the thought of being put into a wood chipper
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anonymous says:
April 19, 2015 at 4:26 pm
Ted, the Awake article about the sponge being blended, reminded me of the movie Fargo, which I will never watch again because of the wood chipper scene.
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Innocent Son says:
April 19, 2015 at 2:50 pm
Nothing more than a P.R. exercise by the Governing Body, let’s call it damage limitation….! They won’t admit of course to being wrong, or dishonest, that could never happen, just that the ‘Light keeps getting brighter’
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Ted says:
April 19, 2015 at 4:02 pm
One has to question the mindset of these writers. How do they
square a Christian conscience with deliberate deception ?
Mis-quoting sources, taking a couple of lines out of context from
a complete article, shifting punctuation about to give a different
meaning, etc etc.
They may fool the trusting but gullible JWs, but they must know
It’s fraudulent, dishonest journalism. It’s sheer pharisaical
hypocrisy to hold ordinary JWs, to such a high standard while
they lie through their teeth.
As for giving apologies, sometimes when backed into a corner
having made fools of themselves. through a failed prediction
they may do so. But it always comes with an angle attached.
“The errors are JHVHs way of refining us, of sifting out the
unfaithful.”
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Charles Costante says:
April 19, 2015 at 10:43 pm
“How do they square a Christian conscience with deliberate deception?”
Absolutely, Ted! They could never plead ignorance in a court of law because what they’ve done is so blatant. As I said earlier, the only thing they could plead is stupidity. They’ve done it for so long and got away with it, so why stop now? They’ve clearly forgotten we live in the Internet Age.
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H.K. Fauskanger says:
April 20, 2015 at 12:45 am
I notice that even the emended version of the Awake article still bears the date “January 2015″, though it has actually been doctored at a later date. There is no indication that anything has been omitted or altered. Quite on the contrary, I believe they have very skillfully expanded the illustration at the top of the page, so that there would not be a telling blank space where the unfortunate quote once appeared.
I have to think of a passage from George Orwell’s “1984”, describing how the omnipotent Party under Big Brother shamelessly rewrites history as it sees fit:
“A number of The Times which might, because of changes in political alignment, or mistaken prophecies uttered by Big Brother, have been rewritten a dozen times still stood on the files bearing its original date, and no other copy existed to contradict it. Books, also, were recalled and rewritten again and again, and were invariably reissued without any admission that any alteration had been made.”
As for “mistaken prophecies”, one may consider the January 1, 1989 Watchtower Magazine. As originally published, it stated that Christian missionary work begun in the first century will “be completed in our 20th century”.
Yes, they were unreservedly predicting Armageddon before the end of the 1900s, certainly not for the first time, but possibly for the last time: With little more than a decade to go before this prophecy could be proven false, they finally got cold feet. When this and other issues were republished in bound volumes, the text had magically changed from “in our 20th century” to a rather less specific wording: “in our day”.
But of course, this is still presented as the January 1, 1989 Watchtower — in George Orwell’s words, “bearing its original date … reissued without any admission that any alteration had been made.”
Unlike the Big Brother Party of Orwell’s novel, the Watchtower is luckily not quite powerful enough to shred all copies of the original issue.
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David says:
April 20, 2015 at 2:36 am
The entire JW religion is based on misquoting.
We are in 2015, this alone proves that they are interpretations have been and will be squarely wrong!
But they will not rectify this, they will keep ruining people families until they’ll be shown for what they really are.
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James Broughton says:
April 20, 2015 at 5:01 am
Keep up the good work. I wrote to the Society after they published their new Bible, asking for names of scholars who supported their translation. They told me it was too soon after its release but sent me a list of names of those who supported earlier versions including one Alexander Thomson of Britain whom they also described as “under appointment to the queen for material regarding the Bible”. I checked this out with Buckingham Palace and they replied that “there is no record of his ever having had any connections with the Palace”. I rest my case.
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Cedars says:
April 20, 2015 at 5:04 am
Thanks for that information James. Would you be able to send me scanned copies of this correspondence?
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James Broughton says:
April 20, 2015 at 5:28 am
Scanned copy on its way.
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Anonymous123 says:
April 20, 2015 at 5:13 am
Quote has not been deleted from the Serbian and Italian versions. Maybe this will be done in the next few days. We’ll see!
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Elka Tire says:
April 20, 2015 at 10:49 am
Why the open letter written by Rama Singh dissapear from http://evol.mcmaster.ca/~brian/evoldir/Other/Awake.letter ???
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Charles Costante says:
April 20, 2015 at 3:01 pm
There’s another copy of the letter here, Elsa.
http://jwalumni.org/2015/01/17/rama-singh-awake/
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Charles Costante says:
April 20, 2015 at 3:03 pm
Sorry, Elka, I misspelled your name.
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Elka Tire says:
April 20, 2015 at 3:51 pm
Charles, I wonder if Rama got an agreement with the WT and took off the letter.
El Kato
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Charles Costante says:
April 20, 2015 at 10:35 pm
Who knows, Elka? I suppose only time will tell.
notanapologist says:
April 20, 2015 at 5:31 pm
Religion is the bane of man. Too bad the 911 terrorists did not target the watchtower headquarters in Brooklyn. Let the terrorists kill each other. Take out the 7 governing body and shoot them.
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AlF says:
April 20, 2015 at 5:55 pm
Here here! Bury the gb, the pope and all the ayatollahs with their watchtowers, bibles and qurans! The bible is the worst book ever! The Jesus story is a story about a Father torturing his own son to death! God needs no ritual sacrifice to forgive mankind! Even so, did it need to be such a gruesome and agonizing death? A sadistic man-made fantasy!
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Strangequark says:
April 20, 2015 at 10:58 pm
I noticed this change a few weeks ago. At the time the attached audio was not updated which amused me greatly.
It’s also funny how they replaced the dishonest text with just some more dishonest text.
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Excelsior! says:
April 21, 2015 at 2:24 am
notanapologist,
Your comment needs some thinking through.
You do realise that innocent people were on those planes, don’t you?
Do you have any evidence that the WTBTS has engaged in terrorist activities? How would you define terrorist acts?
Would the governing body of the Jehovah’s Witnesses receive any free and fair trial before they were shot?
I agree with your as to the ends, but I utterly reject the means.
It’s good that you care so deeply about the victims of the WTBTS. We can work together to hold the wtbts to account legally and peacefully, and I look forward to doing so with you.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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Fluffy says:
April 21, 2015 at 2:42 am
Of course in true Watchtower style, rather than appologise (the way a true journalist would be made to), they prefer to lie some more to cover their tracks. Sadly the majority of my ‘in’ family will never accept there is anything amiss in this, because how can Gods channel be held accountable, they are afterall just imperfect men. Im getting quite dizzy from all their circular reasoning!
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Excelsior! says:
April 21, 2015 at 6:34 am
AIF,
What would happen after you had buried all these religious leaders? Do you think that the adherents of those religions would just take this extreme and illegal act lying down?
Your proposal would lead to brutal war, potentially without end.
Can’t you think of any book that is worse than the bible? I think there are plenty of books that I would consider far worse than the bible.
I agree that the “ransom sacrifice” is problematic. However, JESUS did say that he sacrificed himself for his friends.
I am an atheist, and I would like to see an end to religion. However, unlike your good self and notanapologist, I do not propose violent change.
The only way to see the end of religion peacefully is a long term education programme. Even this method may well prove to be unfruitful.
We should ensure that all religions obey the secular law, and be equal under the law. This can be achieved through political reform and debate, rather than violent action.
I agree with the ends, it’s just that the means would lead, in my opinion, to brutal war and the death of many innocent people whose only crime is to hold a religious faith.
I look forward to working with you to achieve our mutual aims in legal and peaceful ways.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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Driving Force says:
April 22, 2015 at 5:11 am
Misquoting things really seems to be a problem for the Watchtower.
I was looking at a back issue of an Awake magazine, and there was a quote from “Scientific American”, although the actual issue of the magazine was not quoted in the Awake. So I sent an inquiry to Scientific American asking if they would let me know from which issue that was, needless to say I did not receive a reply, but then from the Watchtower I would not have received a reply anyway.
I am mentioning this because as I speak English and German I compared the German issue of Awake, the Watchtower Society correctly translated the quote, but then claims it to be from a completely different magazine, “Spectrum der Wissenschaft”, which is not a translated Scientific American. So I sent an inquiry to the “Spectrum der Wissenschaft”, they did replay, but could not confirm that the quote was from one of their magazines. They did indicate an article that was discussing the same subject, but kindly pointed out that unless I can state from exactly which issue the quote came from, they could not confirm anything.
So for me the reply means that the Society are certainly not being honest.
This is really dumb, because they could have translated it and simply said that it was a quotation from Scientific American and everything would be fine.
The Awake in question was: October 2012 (The Bible—A Book of Accurate Prophecy—Part 6).
It would be interesting if this also occured with other languages.
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anonymous says:
April 22, 2015 at 6:23 am
When I got involved in the “truth” in the 1960’s, the Watchtower and Awakes and the books used to put where they got their quotes from but as time went on, I noticed that the Society no longer would say where we could verify the information.
When I first noticed it, I remember it bothered me but it took many years later until I finally realized that they don’t put the sources where to find the quotes in the literature on purpose so that we can’t verify the information because they make it all up.
The Society relies on the fact that almost all Witnesses are blindly gullible into thinking that it is run by God himself and therefore they could never lie to them but unfortunately they are a bunch of liars and therefore could never actually be God’s “true” religion.
They are just a bunch of liars, out to cheat Witnesses out of their time, labor and money to line their pockets and buy up more and more real estate.
Misquoting or making up lies to influence gullible people into believing in that religion is just another cult tactic called deceitful recruiting tactics.
When I was in school and wrote up a paper, I had to site my sources and if I didn’t do that, I’d have gotten failing marks on any paper so lame.
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theGreenWitness says:
April 22, 2015 at 6:35 am
Partial U-turn? So its more like an L-turn? I would say a J turn but thats a bit too cool for the society to pull off..
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alan says:
April 23, 2015 at 1:33 pm
I sold a 1953 NWT to a JW on ebay and he offered me a “bible” study which I refused and told him that I have differences of opinions on various issues. He came back and asked me what they were. I mentioned the Singh qoute and showed him where it was misquoted. His replay was venemous to say the least. Basically he called me a liar and said that he wouldn’t listen if I quoted WT literature. I had to quote the Bible only. Ironic isn’t it as in order to answer any religious/Biblical questions I have, he would use the very publications he told me not to quote in order to answer them.
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Fulano says:
April 23, 2015 at 2:54 pm
Beneficie-se dá Escola do Ministério Teocrático página 225 sobre exatidão da matéria: “Além de verificar a confiabilidade das fontes, estude cuidadosamente como usar a informação. Certifique-se de usar citações e estatísticas em harmonia com o contexto do qual foram extraídas. Por exemplo, no esforço de expressar-se com veemência, cuide para que “algumas pessoas” não se transforme em “a maioria das pessoas”, nem “muitas pessoas” em “todas as pessoas”, e que “em certos casos” não se transforme em “sempre”. Superdimensionar assuntos ou exagerar informações envolvendo cifras, extensão ou gravidade de determinado fato põe em dúvida a credibilidade de quem as divulga.”
Atenção às últimas palavras dessa citação: “põe em dúvida a credibilidade de quem as divulga”.
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Fulano says:
April 23, 2015 at 3:00 pm
Be p. 225: “In addition to checking the reliability of the sources, consider carefully how you plan to use the information. Make sure that your use of quotations and statistics harmonizes with the context from which they are taken. In an effort to express yourself forcefully, be careful that “some people” does not become “the majority of people,” that “many people” does not become “everyone,” and that “in some cases” does not become “always.” Overstating matters or exaggerating reports involving number, extent, or seriousness raises questions of credibility.”
Focus on the last part: “raises questions of credibility.”
Reply
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AlF says:
April 23, 2015 at 4:50 pm
Excelsior, Obviously, sir, you need to learn the meaning of the word “euphemism.” Saying I want those people buried does not have to be taken literally. In defense of notanapologist, I assume he knew innocent people died on those planes. He was likely just using a historical event as an analogy to make his point. No need to go through his comments with a fine-tooth comb. As for your “free and fair trial” for the governing body, let me ask you this, did the victims of the watchtower’s molesters get a “fair trial” before they were taken advantage of? And how long will your proposed “re-education” program take, to wean the masses off their opiate of religion? A century, a millennium, or more? By then, our charming Middle Eastern friends will have beheaded, incinerated or thrown us all off tall buildings. Patience is a virtue, sir, but only to a point.
Reply
john says:
May 18, 2015 at 2:47 am
alleged victims you mean. How dare you slander the gb in this way, they are the faithful and discreet slave.
Reply
anonymous says:
May 18, 2015 at 3:17 am
@john, they are the “alleged” faithful and discreet slave until proved to be so.
Reply
Charles Costante says:
May 18, 2015 at 3:38 am
Because they tell you they are, john?!!! They are no more the F&DS than the Pope is God’s representative on earth.
Reply
Excelsior! says:
May 18, 2015 at 4:28 am
John,
Why do you say alleged victims, sir? These cases have been through a trial and so these are CONFIRMED cases.
It is the governing body who have slandered the victims and the ex JWs. Mr Lett accused all of these cases of being apostate driven lies! Mr Lett, a member of the governing body, is a slanderer, not any of us.
What level of proof do you require, John? Is a thorough investigation by the “superior authorities” (Romans 13) not good enough for you? Is a free and fair trial not good enough for you, John?
How can you call the governing body of JWs the “faithful and discreet slave”?
Was it discreet of the governing body to fail to make plans that were within their means for the upcoming service year?
What convinced you that the governing body of the JWs are the faithful and discreet slave, John?
We are not the ones slandering people, John. We are trying to protect children and young people from the paedophiles who operate, seemingly with impunity, in your religion.
I would say that this is a Christian act, wouldn’t you, John?
Please do your own independent research, John.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
Tim smith says:
April 23, 2015 at 7:45 pm
The audio version of the Awake has not changed. It still reads as the original was printed as of yesterday.
Reply
Excelsior! says:
April 24, 2015 at 5:01 am
AIF,
Thank you for your reply. I have just checked the meaning of euphemism and it does not apply here.
An euphemism is where a less controversial word is used to replace one that may be taboo etc.
No, the victims did not have a free and fair trial. They weren’t on trial, were they? They were abused by disgusting individuals who need to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. That is something that we both agree with, sir.
As for how long this education programme will take – I have no idea. In my opinion, regardless of how long it takes, it is preferable to aggression and violence. We can, of course, disagree.
I have stated that all religions must be held to account by thr same laws as all citizens. This is something we can all help with by engaging with our Representatives, and lobbying for this.
We must agree to disagree, sir. I thank you sincerely for your polite response. I appreciate it.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
Excelsior! says:
April 24, 2015 at 8:41 am
AIF,
I think the device used by your good self and notanapologist was hyperbole. This is using exaggeration to make a point.
I did not pick up on this, so I apologise for that. I had no context to judge the comments as hyperbole, and there were no punctuation clues, like the use of exclamation marks.
Anyway, point taken, sir. I am glad that we have been able to clarify our opinions in this polite manner.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
AlF says:
April 24, 2015 at 2:54 pm
I think you think too much.
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Swallowtail says:
April 25, 2015 at 3:04 pm
Better to think too much, than not at all. There are far too many people in the world who do the latter unfortunately.
Reply
Excelsior! says:
April 25, 2015 at 4:39 am
AIF,
I don’t agree. Thinking allows one to make decisions, like for example, what to write on a comments section of a blog.
It allows one to consider how what is written will be taken by those reading it. Thinking allows one to consider the consequences of making comments calling for people to be shot without trial, using hyperbole, as perhaps not the most constructive manner of discourse.
I shall continue to think deeply about things, and search for knowledge, as this is who I am. I shall continue to challenge and seek clarification on posts that do not make sense to me.
It is, of course, entirely up to you what you will do.
Whatever it is, I wish you well.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
Flying Dragon says:
April 25, 2015 at 1:48 pm
Excelsior, I have read some of your comments predicting global apocalypse if religion is ever forcibly abolished. My question is, what will all the religious die-hards whom you fear, use to kill the rest of us? Stones, as in Biblical times? It is the secular governments who control the world’s armed Forces. The only viable military threat from organized religion would be the
Swiss Guard at the Vatican. The people of the world are starting to awaken and move toward secularism and atheism, anyway. I don’t see a reason to be a Nervous Nellie about it. You sound a bit like the JDubs, predicting global catastrophe. We can learn something from current events. The Allies hesitated to back the rebels in Syria in their righteous cause of overthrowing a brutal dictatorship, and so ISIS was born from that cauldron. They hesitate once more, and ISIS grows stronger, acquiring more and more territory, wealth, weaponry, manpower, etc. Fear causes hesitation and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true.
Reply
laredac33 says:
April 26, 2015 at 5:37 am
For the french speakers, this article is translated to french here:
https://tjvisioncritique.wordpress.com/
Sincerely
Reply
kat says:
April 26, 2015 at 6:30 pm
If they are not plagiarizing they are misquoting, the FDS/GB has to be trusted regardless, because they are appointed by Christ. What a reputation!
Reply
Excelsior! says:
April 27, 2015 at 4:35 am
Flying Dragon,
Oh dear! Who do you think make up the armies of the world? Are they all atheists, bent on the forcible removal of freedom of choice? Many of those heavily armed and well trained soldiers will be people of faith!
Do you really think that religious people would not be able to get hold of weapons? Of course they could! How many Americans would gladly have their religious faith forcibly removed form them, without reaching for their guns?
I am not ANYTHING like the Jehovah’s Witnesses. That was very insulting, actually.
You state that the world is increasingly becoming secular anyway, so why are you and others getting so upset with me? Surely the passing of time, and better education, will lead to the gradual reduction in power of religion
Why should you or anyone have the right to forcibly remove a major part of people’s lives? Most religious people follow the law and are of no threat to anyone.
I agree that religious cults need to be challenged and compelled, not to drop their religious faith, but to follow the laws as all other citizens do.
If you can show me in history where forcing people to do things against their will turned out peachy, then I would very much like to read about it.
We shall have to agree to disagree.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Are all religious people so terribly evil, that you and others want to force them to disbelieve?
Reply
Brazilian Guy says:
April 27, 2015 at 9:00 am
I want to become a pioneer as soon as possible!
Reply
Pickled brain says:
April 27, 2015 at 11:16 am
@Brazilian Guy . Most regular pioneers I went to pioneer School with in 1981 are Disfellowshipped or have broken marriages or had Mental Breakdowns (22 out of 30 of my Class ) So Brazilian guy I wish you well!!
Reply
Bearwoody says:
April 28, 2015 at 7:59 pm
Yes, Alexander Thomson is truly another jewel in the Watchtower crown of Biblical Scholars. Verily, I say.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Thomson_%28writer%29
Reply
John says:
May 5, 2015 at 5:33 am
Good one Lloyd! Any questions now over why they are obsessed with jw.org? Instant history revisions!
Reply
Excelsior! says:
May 21, 2015 at 9:47 am
Folks,
In the past, before the advent of the Internet, the WTBTS would have got away with this Big Brother revising of their literature.
Now, the changes have been reported and are available for anyone to view.
This is a great example of just how powerful this site is. Many other activists have also featured this in their work.
I am pleased that “the good old days” when the WTBTS had pretty much complete control of information is over.
No longer can they run roughshod over the correct way to quote someone with impunity.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
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← “We are not done yet!” – Candace reacts to appeal court decision
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JW.org does partial U-turn over Awake! magazine Rama Singh misquote
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Posted on April 19, 2015
JW.org has removed their misquote of Rama Singh from digital versions of Awake! magazine
JW.org has removed their misquote of Rama Singh from digital versions of Awake! magazine
Some of you will remember that back in January we reported on the latest example of a Watchtower publication misquoting an academic to get its anti-science views across. Biologist Rama Singh was quoted in the January 2015 Awake! magazine with comments that seemed to suggest he was a denier of evolutionary theory, when in actual fact he is anything but.
“JW has indeed misquoted me and I do not agree with their article and its anti-evolution stand,” he said on being alerted to the matter.
In an open letter to Awake! magazine editors, Singh made this request (bold is mine):
“So I am asking you first to remove the misquotation from your article immediately and second print an unconditional apology for what I consider is a deliberate damaging action on your part to my reputation.”
Well… it seems Awake! has done the first part. Digital versions of the January 2015 Awake! magazine, including the PDF download, no longer feature the Rama Singh quote as the following images show…
BEFORE…
11126905_10153245677955859_1438907929721439922_n
AFTER…
11054860_10153245678865859_3962693436555226232_n
The only thing that is conspicuous by its absence is the second part of Singh’s request – namely a printed, unconditional apology from Awake! editors for misquoting him. Unfortunately for Singh, who has since written about the incident in the Hamilton Spectator, it is extremely doubtful he will receive any such thing.
Despite professing “Christlike humility,” the “spiritual men” who work on the Governing Body’s Writing Committee are not renowned for their willingness to issue apologies or print retractions.
Needless to say, the whole affair smacks of hypocrisy. A religion that is the first to point the finger at others for deception and subterfuge is not above stooping to such methods if it means duping people into embracing their backwards views.
The scandal also makes a mockery of this quote from page 13 of the 2011 Yearbook:
“In summary, the Writing Department insists on using only material that is accurate and truthful, even regarding seemingly insignificant details. As a result, ‘the faithful and discreet slave’ can consistently supply spiritual food that brings honor to ‘the God of truth,’ Jehovah.—Ps. 31:5.”
new-cedars-signature2
Further reading…
◾JWsurvey: Watchtower AGAIN misquotes scientist to argue against evolution – and this time, it’s personal!
◾Hamilton Spectator (by Rama Singh): Religion, science driven by reason
◾INQUISITR: Biology Professor Says Creationist Magazine Misquoted Him To Perpetuate Lies Against Evolution
◾Friendly Atheist: Jehovah’s Witness Publication Cites Professor Who Doubts Evolution… but Professor Says He Was Unfairly Misquoted
◾JWsurvey articles on evolution and creation
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76 Responses to JW.org does partial U-turn over Awake! magazine Rama Singh misquote
Newer Comments →
rusty says:
April 19, 2015 at 4:11 am
Unfortunately we will never see an apology because they would have to admit they were wrong, which would never happen.
Reply
JJ says:
April 20, 2015 at 4:28 am
How true!
I used to think it was just the local elders that I had to deal with that would never apologize. The ‘stink’ goes all the way to the head.
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Charles Costante says:
April 19, 2015 at 4:42 am
It’s outrageous! They should be forced to apologise. I suppose the only thing they can plead is stupidity.
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Isaac Harris says:
April 19, 2015 at 5:10 am
It be interesting if he tried to sue them over this. If the media reported on it, it might make others wonder if the Society had done this elsewhere.
I wish I still had the emails I received from scientists who were misquoted in the Creation Book. That could have been added to evidence for their deceptive practices. :)
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Charles Costante says:
April 19, 2015 at 3:23 pm
I do hope they do sue, Isaac. The more they are exposed for the liars they are, the better!
Reply
dubonnet says:
April 19, 2015 at 5:14 am
Hi Cedar,
for electronique edition : english, french or spanish : it’s ok.
for paper format .pdf, today in english, yes change, but in french and spanish : NO
best regards
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Ted says:
April 19, 2015 at 6:02 am
More deception and without the backing of the cited authority
namely Mr, Rama Singh.
Their greatest deception is that they are God’s Organisation
a claim that’s made without a shred of support or credibility
save the monotonous and continual repetition of it in their
publications.
“It would not be Impossible to prove with sufficient REPETITION
and a psychological understanding of the people concerned,
that a square is in fact a circle.”—Joseph Goebbels.
“The most brilliant propagandist techniques would yield no success
unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind. Constantly
and with unflagging attention, it must confine itself to a few points
and REPEAT them OVER and OVER ” — Adolph Hitler.h
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Susan says:
April 19, 2015 at 6:32 am
The problem is that the damage had already been done. Millions of their followers had read the original deceptive quote, and barely anyone will ever learn about how their organization once again blatantly misquoted a scientist. Clearly their argument for creation is weak as they again resorted to twisting the truth to back up their faulty reasoning. As for an apology or a retraction, they are far too proud for that.
Reply
kat says:
April 19, 2015 at 7:17 am
the GB of the WT inc are deceptive and should have been sued, this seems to be a practise of theirs, I really hope some of those that have been misrepresented come forward, one can only hope. sickens me how this org gets away with so much poop!
Reply
John McAllister says:
April 19, 2015 at 7:41 am
Nice quote from the 2011 Yearbook, although in my copy it’s on page 13 not 9. Has there been some re-writing of this book going on?
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Cedars says:
April 19, 2015 at 9:42 am
Well spotted John! I’ve fixed it! :)
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airborne says:
April 19, 2015 at 9:35 am
Very interesting. Basically the GB lie ALL THE TIME.
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Octavio says:
April 19, 2015 at 9:42 am
interestingly, in the Spanish version we still see the original text (at least until now). The GB body did not correct it yet. May be it will remain because they think that the latin community ignores this stuff.
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Octavio says:
April 19, 2015 at 9:59 am
I have noticed that french and portugues versions of Awake still have the questioned text in page 3.
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
April 19, 2015 at 12:50 pm
Kinyarwanda version of Awake! we call in our language “Nimukanguke!” still has the questioned quotation, too ( http://wol.jw.org/rw/wol/d/r127/lp-yw/102015002 )
Let us hope Awake! writers will AWAKE! and remove the quotation even in my mother tongue. It is annoying!
Reply
John Baptist says:
April 19, 2015 at 10:11 am
Perhaps this man can sue for defamation of character?
And I wonder who is Gerard this other respected scientist?
Could Gerard be fictions?
When you go to college and your writing articles on the subjects your taking you ABSOLUTELY need to show where your quotes came from by showing references to that effect.
If you don’t then it is considered not a completed assignment and will adversely affect your grade.
So my question why does not the watchtower society adhere to these common sense and typical protocol’s?
This is a Billion dollar a year publishing company that should not be mis-quoting famed Scientists in order to push their own philosophies.
They are printing LIES!
Let me quote from the Bible yes you can verify it here at John 8:44 where it talks about the father of the LIE as being satan the devil.
So is this professed slave class really Gods sole channel on earth now if their lying in their publications like they have so many times?
According to their direct proclamations and failures of those things to come about and lying about what other renowned people say, one can only come to one conclusion and that is they ARE NOT GODS CHOSEN RELIGION!
Reply
JBob says:
April 19, 2015 at 10:11 am
Good catch on the misquotes of living scientists, but you should also catch this group on misquotes of Early Christian Fathers, too.
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Shelley says:
April 19, 2015 at 10:21 am
The audio copy has not been altered, so they haven’t even fully complied that that part of the request!!!!!!
Reply
Swallowtail says:
April 19, 2015 at 10:28 am
For a group that consistently tells you to be meek and humble they certainly are resistant to making a simple apology.
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questionall451 says:
April 21, 2015 at 5:29 pm
They make such a big deal of their “humility” that it is shameful. I remember brothers at assemblies used to really lay it on thick during the prayers, “Ohhhh, deeeeeaar Jehooooooooovah! (*long pause*) We are nothing….nothing….but…dust!” I would be so second had embarrassed for them because it was so obviously phoney and artificial. Then afterward someone would always say something like, “Wasn’t that such a wonderful prayer? That brother must’ve been one of the anointed because they have such deeper love for God.” *Eye roll* Looks like some things will never change.
Reply
Swallowtail says:
April 22, 2015 at 3:42 pm
That is hilarious questionall451! “Secondhand embarrassed” is exactly right.
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John Henry Kurtz says:
April 19, 2015 at 11:41 am
A liar is sooner caught than a cripple…
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
April 19, 2015 at 12:29 pm
If they do not apologize in this case, I hope they will apologyize for having misquoted their god Jehovah in Jeramiah 5:8.
The verse used to read (Jeremiah 5:8) . . .Horses seized with sexual heat, having [strong] testicles, they have become. They neigh each one to the wife of his companion.
and in the Version 2013 of their Bible it reads (Jeremiah 5:8) . . .They are like eager, lustful horses, Each neighing after another man’s wife.
You see, they have removed “Strong testicles” from their god’s word. It/he/she was misquoted.
Reply
tiger123 says:
April 19, 2015 at 12:41 pm
Good article, solid information.
Thank you.
Reply
Bo Vestergaard says:
April 19, 2015 at 1:49 pm
Who is Gerard? Why are we not allowed to know his surname?
Reply
John Jarrett says:
April 19, 2015 at 2:10 pm
The “Gerard” they refer to is actually Gerard Hertel, one of Jehovah’s Witnesses (a fact they conveniently omit from the article). See this link for details:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/01/18/jehovahs-witness-publication-cites-professor-who-doubts-evolution-but-professor-says-he-was-unfairly-misquoted/
Reply
Gravedigger says:
April 19, 2015 at 2:48 pm
“Gerard” is Dr. Gerard Hertel and he was not misquoted–he is one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. He is a retired entomologist/dendrologist (bug/tree scientist) with the USDA forest service and adjunct faculty with West Chester University of Pennsylvania. He has published several (20 or so) peer-reviewed scientific papers. I found his last name in the spanish translation of the magazine, as WT had removed it from the English translation for some reason. I emailed him to confirm his identity and he confirmed he was the subject of the article. Link to his credentials: http://darwin.wcupa.edu/faculty/hertel/Main/HomePage
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anonymous says:
April 19, 2015 at 2:00 pm
I don’t know how we all got here but here’s a simple example of how creatures adapt to their environment. If my cat is an indoor cat and doesn’t have to stay outside in the winter, she doesn’t develop a “winter” coat of fur. Animals who have to stay outdoors in the wintertime, develop a really thick coat of fur and as soon as the weather warms up, all the winter fur falls out. Many animals have 2 colors of fur, one color for winter and another color for summer. It all helps them to survive the environment. Animals who develop white fur in the winter and their 2nd coat is brown in the summer, makes them harder to be seen by their enemies. If polar bears lose all their ice and the temperatures warm up, they probably won’t have as thick of fur. Who can explain this, except that species adapt to their surroundings, which sounds like evolution to me.
Does the Watchtower ever bring up stuff like that? It’s always the simple answer that we couldn’t have evolved from a one-celled amoeba so evolution is just a theory and the Bible’s account has to be right but many people believe in God in that he made everything that evolved into what it is today. So, they can still believe in God and evolution.
I remember years ago, there was an article in the Awake on how if you put a live sponge in a blender and put it back in the water, the thing will glue itself back together and be alive and the very same animal. What is that, except evolution? Could any human be put in a blender and glue itself back together to be the same person they were before? I don’t think so.
So, if God was making us “perfect” in his image, why didn’t he make it so that if our bodies are put in a wood chipper, that afterwards, we could glue ourselves back together? It seems that the sponge is much more highly evolved then us humans but us humans take that live sponge and kill it and then use it to wash our floors with and use it make sponge paintings on the wall.
Most animals have better eye sight than humans. Some turtles live hundreds of years. Even clams can live to be 500 years old. Parrots can live 200 years. Some trees live thousands of years. Something’s amiss if a loving God made us to be lower than the sponge because we can’t be glued back together and with worse eye sight than almost any animal.
It would make more sense not to blame all that on a God.
Reply
Ted says:
April 19, 2015 at 2:47 pm
Anonymous, I’m gonna have nightmares tonight
at the thought of being put into a wood chipper
Reply
anonymous says:
April 19, 2015 at 4:26 pm
Ted, the Awake article about the sponge being blended, reminded me of the movie Fargo, which I will never watch again because of the wood chipper scene.
Reply
Innocent Son says:
April 19, 2015 at 2:50 pm
Nothing more than a P.R. exercise by the Governing Body, let’s call it damage limitation….! They won’t admit of course to being wrong, or dishonest, that could never happen, just that the ‘Light keeps getting brighter’
Reply
Ted says:
April 19, 2015 at 4:02 pm
One has to question the mindset of these writers. How do they
square a Christian conscience with deliberate deception ?
Mis-quoting sources, taking a couple of lines out of context from
a complete article, shifting punctuation about to give a different
meaning, etc etc.
They may fool the trusting but gullible JWs, but they must know
It’s fraudulent, dishonest journalism. It’s sheer pharisaical
hypocrisy to hold ordinary JWs, to such a high standard while
they lie through their teeth.
As for giving apologies, sometimes when backed into a corner
having made fools of themselves. through a failed prediction
they may do so. But it always comes with an angle attached.
“The errors are JHVHs way of refining us, of sifting out the
unfaithful.”
Reply
Charles Costante says:
April 19, 2015 at 10:43 pm
“How do they square a Christian conscience with deliberate deception?”
Absolutely, Ted! They could never plead ignorance in a court of law because what they’ve done is so blatant. As I said earlier, the only thing they could plead is stupidity. They’ve done it for so long and got away with it, so why stop now? They’ve clearly forgotten we live in the Internet Age.
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H.K. Fauskanger says:
April 20, 2015 at 12:45 am
I notice that even the emended version of the Awake article still bears the date “January 2015″, though it has actually been doctored at a later date. There is no indication that anything has been omitted or altered. Quite on the contrary, I believe they have very skillfully expanded the illustration at the top of the page, so that there would not be a telling blank space where the unfortunate quote once appeared.
I have to think of a passage from George Orwell’s “1984”, describing how the omnipotent Party under Big Brother shamelessly rewrites history as it sees fit:
“A number of The Times which might, because of changes in political alignment, or mistaken prophecies uttered by Big Brother, have been rewritten a dozen times still stood on the files bearing its original date, and no other copy existed to contradict it. Books, also, were recalled and rewritten again and again, and were invariably reissued without any admission that any alteration had been made.”
As for “mistaken prophecies”, one may consider the January 1, 1989 Watchtower Magazine. As originally published, it stated that Christian missionary work begun in the first century will “be completed in our 20th century”.
Yes, they were unreservedly predicting Armageddon before the end of the 1900s, certainly not for the first time, but possibly for the last time: With little more than a decade to go before this prophecy could be proven false, they finally got cold feet. When this and other issues were republished in bound volumes, the text had magically changed from “in our 20th century” to a rather less specific wording: “in our day”.
But of course, this is still presented as the January 1, 1989 Watchtower — in George Orwell’s words, “bearing its original date … reissued without any admission that any alteration had been made.”
Unlike the Big Brother Party of Orwell’s novel, the Watchtower is luckily not quite powerful enough to shred all copies of the original issue.
Reply
David says:
April 20, 2015 at 2:36 am
The entire JW religion is based on misquoting.
We are in 2015, this alone proves that they are interpretations have been and will be squarely wrong!
But they will not rectify this, they will keep ruining people families until they’ll be shown for what they really are.
Reply
James Broughton says:
April 20, 2015 at 5:01 am
Keep up the good work. I wrote to the Society after they published their new Bible, asking for names of scholars who supported their translation. They told me it was too soon after its release but sent me a list of names of those who supported earlier versions including one Alexander Thomson of Britain whom they also described as “under appointment to the queen for material regarding the Bible”. I checked this out with Buckingham Palace and they replied that “there is no record of his ever having had any connections with the Palace”. I rest my case.
Reply
Cedars says:
April 20, 2015 at 5:04 am
Thanks for that information James. Would you be able to send me scanned copies of this correspondence?
Reply
James Broughton says:
April 20, 2015 at 5:28 am
Scanned copy on its way.
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Anonymous123 says:
April 20, 2015 at 5:13 am
Quote has not been deleted from the Serbian and Italian versions. Maybe this will be done in the next few days. We’ll see!
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Elka Tire says:
April 20, 2015 at 10:49 am
Why the open letter written by Rama Singh dissapear from http://evol.mcmaster.ca/~brian/evoldir/Other/Awake.letter ???
Reply
Charles Costante says:
April 20, 2015 at 3:01 pm
There’s another copy of the letter here, Elsa.
http://jwalumni.org/2015/01/17/rama-singh-awake/
Reply
Charles Costante says:
April 20, 2015 at 3:03 pm
Sorry, Elka, I misspelled your name.
Reply
Elka Tire says:
April 20, 2015 at 3:51 pm
Charles, I wonder if Rama got an agreement with the WT and took off the letter.
El Kato
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Charles Costante says:
April 20, 2015 at 10:35 pm
Who knows, Elka? I suppose only time will tell.
notanapologist says:
April 20, 2015 at 5:31 pm
Religion is the bane of man. Too bad the 911 terrorists did not target the watchtower headquarters in Brooklyn. Let the terrorists kill each other. Take out the 7 governing body and shoot them.
Reply
AlF says:
April 20, 2015 at 5:55 pm
Here here! Bury the gb, the pope and all the ayatollahs with their watchtowers, bibles and qurans! The bible is the worst book ever! The Jesus story is a story about a Father torturing his own son to death! God needs no ritual sacrifice to forgive mankind! Even so, did it need to be such a gruesome and agonizing death? A sadistic man-made fantasy!
Reply
Strangequark says:
April 20, 2015 at 10:58 pm
I noticed this change a few weeks ago. At the time the attached audio was not updated which amused me greatly.
It’s also funny how they replaced the dishonest text with just some more dishonest text.
Reply
Excelsior! says:
April 21, 2015 at 2:24 am
notanapologist,
Your comment needs some thinking through.
You do realise that innocent people were on those planes, don’t you?
Do you have any evidence that the WTBTS has engaged in terrorist activities? How would you define terrorist acts?
Would the governing body of the Jehovah’s Witnesses receive any free and fair trial before they were shot?
I agree with your as to the ends, but I utterly reject the means.
It’s good that you care so deeply about the victims of the WTBTS. We can work together to hold the wtbts to account legally and peacefully, and I look forward to doing so with you.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
Fluffy says:
April 21, 2015 at 2:42 am
Of course in true Watchtower style, rather than appologise (the way a true journalist would be made to), they prefer to lie some more to cover their tracks. Sadly the majority of my ‘in’ family will never accept there is anything amiss in this, because how can Gods channel be held accountable, they are afterall just imperfect men. Im getting quite dizzy from all their circular reasoning!
Reply
Excelsior! says:
April 21, 2015 at 6:34 am
AIF,
What would happen after you had buried all these religious leaders? Do you think that the adherents of those religions would just take this extreme and illegal act lying down?
Your proposal would lead to brutal war, potentially without end.
Can’t you think of any book that is worse than the bible? I think there are plenty of books that I would consider far worse than the bible.
I agree that the “ransom sacrifice” is problematic. However, JESUS did say that he sacrificed himself for his friends.
I am an atheist, and I would like to see an end to religion. However, unlike your good self and notanapologist, I do not propose violent change.
The only way to see the end of religion peacefully is a long term education programme. Even this method may well prove to be unfruitful.
We should ensure that all religions obey the secular law, and be equal under the law. This can be achieved through political reform and debate, rather than violent action.
I agree with the ends, it’s just that the means would lead, in my opinion, to brutal war and the death of many innocent people whose only crime is to hold a religious faith.
I look forward to working with you to achieve our mutual aims in legal and peaceful ways.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
Driving Force says:
April 22, 2015 at 5:11 am
Misquoting things really seems to be a problem for the Watchtower.
I was looking at a back issue of an Awake magazine, and there was a quote from “Scientific American”, although the actual issue of the magazine was not quoted in the Awake. So I sent an inquiry to Scientific American asking if they would let me know from which issue that was, needless to say I did not receive a reply, but then from the Watchtower I would not have received a reply anyway.
I am mentioning this because as I speak English and German I compared the German issue of Awake, the Watchtower Society correctly translated the quote, but then claims it to be from a completely different magazine, “Spectrum der Wissenschaft”, which is not a translated Scientific American. So I sent an inquiry to the “Spectrum der Wissenschaft”, they did replay, but could not confirm that the quote was from one of their magazines. They did indicate an article that was discussing the same subject, but kindly pointed out that unless I can state from exactly which issue the quote came from, they could not confirm anything.
So for me the reply means that the Society are certainly not being honest.
This is really dumb, because they could have translated it and simply said that it was a quotation from Scientific American and everything would be fine.
The Awake in question was: October 2012 (The Bible—A Book of Accurate Prophecy—Part 6).
It would be interesting if this also occured with other languages.
Reply
anonymous says:
April 22, 2015 at 6:23 am
When I got involved in the “truth” in the 1960’s, the Watchtower and Awakes and the books used to put where they got their quotes from but as time went on, I noticed that the Society no longer would say where we could verify the information.
When I first noticed it, I remember it bothered me but it took many years later until I finally realized that they don’t put the sources where to find the quotes in the literature on purpose so that we can’t verify the information because they make it all up.
The Society relies on the fact that almost all Witnesses are blindly gullible into thinking that it is run by God himself and therefore they could never lie to them but unfortunately they are a bunch of liars and therefore could never actually be God’s “true” religion.
They are just a bunch of liars, out to cheat Witnesses out of their time, labor and money to line their pockets and buy up more and more real estate.
Misquoting or making up lies to influence gullible people into believing in that religion is just another cult tactic called deceitful recruiting tactics.
When I was in school and wrote up a paper, I had to site my sources and if I didn’t do that, I’d have gotten failing marks on any paper so lame.
Reply
theGreenWitness says:
April 22, 2015 at 6:35 am
Partial U-turn? So its more like an L-turn? I would say a J turn but thats a bit too cool for the society to pull off..
Reply
alan says:
April 23, 2015 at 1:33 pm
I sold a 1953 NWT to a JW on ebay and he offered me a “bible” study which I refused and told him that I have differences of opinions on various issues. He came back and asked me what they were. I mentioned the Singh qoute and showed him where it was misquoted. His replay was venemous to say the least. Basically he called me a liar and said that he wouldn’t listen if I quoted WT literature. I had to quote the Bible only. Ironic isn’t it as in order to answer any religious/Biblical questions I have, he would use the very publications he told me not to quote in order to answer them.
Reply
Fulano says:
April 23, 2015 at 2:54 pm
Beneficie-se dá Escola do Ministério Teocrático página 225 sobre exatidão da matéria: “Além de verificar a confiabilidade das fontes, estude cuidadosamente como usar a informação. Certifique-se de usar citações e estatísticas em harmonia com o contexto do qual foram extraídas. Por exemplo, no esforço de expressar-se com veemência, cuide para que “algumas pessoas” não se transforme em “a maioria das pessoas”, nem “muitas pessoas” em “todas as pessoas”, e que “em certos casos” não se transforme em “sempre”. Superdimensionar assuntos ou exagerar informações envolvendo cifras, extensão ou gravidade de determinado fato põe em dúvida a credibilidade de quem as divulga.”
Atenção às últimas palavras dessa citação: “põe em dúvida a credibilidade de quem as divulga”.
Reply
Fulano says:
April 23, 2015 at 3:00 pm
Be p. 225: “In addition to checking the reliability of the sources, consider carefully how you plan to use the information. Make sure that your use of quotations and statistics harmonizes with the context from which they are taken. In an effort to express yourself forcefully, be careful that “some people” does not become “the majority of people,” that “many people” does not become “everyone,” and that “in some cases” does not become “always.” Overstating matters or exaggerating reports involving number, extent, or seriousness raises questions of credibility.”
Focus on the last part: “raises questions of credibility.”
Reply
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← “We are not done yet!” – Candace reacts to appeal court decision
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JW.org does partial U-turn over Awake! magazine Rama Singh misquote
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Posted on April 19, 2015
JW.org has removed their misquote of Rama Singh from digital versions of Awake! magazine
JW.org has removed their misquote of Rama Singh from digital versions of Awake! magazine
Some of you will remember that back in January we reported on the latest example of a Watchtower publication misquoting an academic to get its anti-science views across. Biologist Rama Singh was quoted in the January 2015 Awake! magazine with comments that seemed to suggest he was a denier of evolutionary theory, when in actual fact he is anything but.
“JW has indeed misquoted me and I do not agree with their article and its anti-evolution stand,” he said on being alerted to the matter.
In an open letter to Awake! magazine editors, Singh made this request (bold is mine):
“So I am asking you first to remove the misquotation from your article immediately and second print an unconditional apology for what I consider is a deliberate damaging action on your part to my reputation.”
Well… it seems Awake! has done the first part. Digital versions of the January 2015 Awake! magazine, including the PDF download, no longer feature the Rama Singh quote as the following images show…
BEFORE…
11126905_10153245677955859_1438907929721439922_n
AFTER…
11054860_10153245678865859_3962693436555226232_n
The only thing that is conspicuous by its absence is the second part of Singh’s request – namely a printed, unconditional apology from Awake! editors for misquoting him. Unfortunately for Singh, who has since written about the incident in the Hamilton Spectator, it is extremely doubtful he will receive any such thing.
Despite professing “Christlike humility,” the “spiritual men” who work on the Governing Body’s Writing Committee are not renowned for their willingness to issue apologies or print retractions.
Needless to say, the whole affair smacks of hypocrisy. A religion that is the first to point the finger at others for deception and subterfuge is not above stooping to such methods if it means duping people into embracing their backwards views.
The scandal also makes a mockery of this quote from page 13 of the 2011 Yearbook:
“In summary, the Writing Department insists on using only material that is accurate and truthful, even regarding seemingly insignificant details. As a result, ‘the faithful and discreet slave’ can consistently supply spiritual food that brings honor to ‘the God of truth,’ Jehovah.—Ps. 31:5.”
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Further reading…
◾JWsurvey: Watchtower AGAIN misquotes scientist to argue against evolution – and this time, it’s personal!
◾Hamilton Spectator (by Rama Singh): Religion, science driven by reason
◾INQUISITR: Biology Professor Says Creationist Magazine Misquoted Him To Perpetuate Lies Against Evolution
◾Friendly Atheist: Jehovah’s Witness Publication Cites Professor Who Doubts Evolution… but Professor Says He Was Unfairly Misquoted
◾JWsurvey articles on evolution and creation
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← “We are not done yet!” – Candace reacts to appeal court decision
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76 Responses to JW.org does partial U-turn over Awake! magazine Rama Singh misquote
Newer Comments →
rusty says:
April 19, 2015 at 4:11 am
Unfortunately we will never see an apology because they would have to admit they were wrong, which would never happen.
Reply
JJ says:
April 20, 2015 at 4:28 am
How true!
I used to think it was just the local elders that I had to deal with that would never apologize. The ‘stink’ goes all the way to the head.
Reply
Charles Costante says:
April 19, 2015 at 4:42 am
It’s outrageous! They should be forced to apologise. I suppose the only thing they can plead is stupidity.
Reply
Isaac Harris says:
April 19, 2015 at 5:10 am
It be interesting if he tried to sue them over this. If the media reported on it, it might make others wonder if the Society had done this elsewhere.
I wish I still had the emails I received from scientists who were misquoted in the Creation Book. That could have been added to evidence for their deceptive practices. :)
Reply
Charles Costante says:
April 19, 2015 at 3:23 pm
I do hope they do sue, Isaac. The more they are exposed for the liars they are, the better!
Reply
dubonnet says:
April 19, 2015 at 5:14 am
Hi Cedar,
for electronique edition : english, french or spanish : it’s ok.
for paper format .pdf, today in english, yes change, but in french and spanish : NO
best regards
Reply
Ted says:
April 19, 2015 at 6:02 am
More deception and without the backing of the cited authority
namely Mr, Rama Singh.
Their greatest deception is that they are God’s Organisation
a claim that’s made without a shred of support or credibility
save the monotonous and continual repetition of it in their
publications.
“It would not be Impossible to prove with sufficient REPETITION
and a psychological understanding of the people concerned,
that a square is in fact a circle.”—Joseph Goebbels.
“The most brilliant propagandist techniques would yield no success
unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind. Constantly
and with unflagging attention, it must confine itself to a few points
and REPEAT them OVER and OVER ” — Adolph Hitler.h
Reply
Susan says:
April 19, 2015 at 6:32 am
The problem is that the damage had already been done. Millions of their followers had read the original deceptive quote, and barely anyone will ever learn about how their organization once again blatantly misquoted a scientist. Clearly their argument for creation is weak as they again resorted to twisting the truth to back up their faulty reasoning. As for an apology or a retraction, they are far too proud for that.
Reply
kat says:
April 19, 2015 at 7:17 am
the GB of the WT inc are deceptive and should have been sued, this seems to be a practise of theirs, I really hope some of those that have been misrepresented come forward, one can only hope. sickens me how this org gets away with so much poop!
Reply
John McAllister says:
April 19, 2015 at 7:41 am
Nice quote from the 2011 Yearbook, although in my copy it’s on page 13 not 9. Has there been some re-writing of this book going on?
Reply
Cedars says:
April 19, 2015 at 9:42 am
Well spotted John! I’ve fixed it! :)
Reply
airborne says:
April 19, 2015 at 9:35 am
Very interesting. Basically the GB lie ALL THE TIME.
Reply
Octavio says:
April 19, 2015 at 9:42 am
interestingly, in the Spanish version we still see the original text (at least until now). The GB body did not correct it yet. May be it will remain because they think that the latin community ignores this stuff.
Reply
Octavio says:
April 19, 2015 at 9:59 am
I have noticed that french and portugues versions of Awake still have the questioned text in page 3.
Reply
Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
April 19, 2015 at 12:50 pm
Kinyarwanda version of Awake! we call in our language “Nimukanguke!” still has the questioned quotation, too ( http://wol.jw.org/rw/wol/d/r127/lp-yw/102015002 )
Let us hope Awake! writers will AWAKE! and remove the quotation even in my mother tongue. It is annoying!
Reply
John Baptist says:
April 19, 2015 at 10:11 am
Perhaps this man can sue for defamation of character?
And I wonder who is Gerard this other respected scientist?
Could Gerard be fictions?
When you go to college and your writing articles on the subjects your taking you ABSOLUTELY need to show where your quotes came from by showing references to that effect.
If you don’t then it is considered not a completed assignment and will adversely affect your grade.
So my question why does not the watchtower society adhere to these common sense and typical protocol’s?
This is a Billion dollar a year publishing company that should not be mis-quoting famed Scientists in order to push their own philosophies.
They are printing LIES!
Let me quote from the Bible yes you can verify it here at John 8:44 where it talks about the father of the LIE as being satan the devil.
So is this professed slave class really Gods sole channel on earth now if their lying in their publications like they have so many times?
According to their direct proclamations and failures of those things to come about and lying about what other renowned people say, one can only come to one conclusion and that is they ARE NOT GODS CHOSEN RELIGION!
Reply
JBob says:
April 19, 2015 at 10:11 am
Good catch on the misquotes of living scientists, but you should also catch this group on misquotes of Early Christian Fathers, too.
Reply
Shelley says:
April 19, 2015 at 10:21 am
The audio copy has not been altered, so they haven’t even fully complied that that part of the request!!!!!!
Reply
Swallowtail says:
April 19, 2015 at 10:28 am
For a group that consistently tells you to be meek and humble they certainly are resistant to making a simple apology.
Reply
questionall451 says:
April 21, 2015 at 5:29 pm
They make such a big deal of their “humility” that it is shameful. I remember brothers at assemblies used to really lay it on thick during the prayers, “Ohhhh, deeeeeaar Jehooooooooovah! (*long pause*) We are nothing….nothing….but…dust!” I would be so second had embarrassed for them because it was so obviously phoney and artificial. Then afterward someone would always say something like, “Wasn’t that such a wonderful prayer? That brother must’ve been one of the anointed because they have such deeper love for God.” *Eye roll* Looks like some things will never change.
Reply
Swallowtail says:
April 22, 2015 at 3:42 pm
That is hilarious questionall451! “Secondhand embarrassed” is exactly right.
Reply
John Henry Kurtz says:
April 19, 2015 at 11:41 am
A liar is sooner caught than a cripple…
Reply
Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
April 19, 2015 at 12:29 pm
If they do not apologize in this case, I hope they will apologyize for having misquoted their god Jehovah in Jeramiah 5:8.
The verse used to read (Jeremiah 5:8) . . .Horses seized with sexual heat, having [strong] testicles, they have become. They neigh each one to the wife of his companion.
and in the Version 2013 of their Bible it reads (Jeremiah 5:8) . . .They are like eager, lustful horses, Each neighing after another man’s wife.
You see, they have removed “Strong testicles” from their god’s word. It/he/she was misquoted.
Reply
tiger123 says:
April 19, 2015 at 12:41 pm
Good article, solid information.
Thank you.
Reply
Bo Vestergaard says:
April 19, 2015 at 1:49 pm
Who is Gerard? Why are we not allowed to know his surname?
Reply
John Jarrett says:
April 19, 2015 at 2:10 pm
The “Gerard” they refer to is actually Gerard Hertel, one of Jehovah’s Witnesses (a fact they conveniently omit from the article). See this link for details:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/01/18/jehovahs-witness-publication-cites-professor-who-doubts-evolution-but-professor-says-he-was-unfairly-misquoted/
Reply
Gravedigger says:
April 19, 2015 at 2:48 pm
“Gerard” is Dr. Gerard Hertel and he was not misquoted–he is one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. He is a retired entomologist/dendrologist (bug/tree scientist) with the USDA forest service and adjunct faculty with West Chester University of Pennsylvania. He has published several (20 or so) peer-reviewed scientific papers. I found his last name in the spanish translation of the magazine, as WT had removed it from the English translation for some reason. I emailed him to confirm his identity and he confirmed he was the subject of the article. Link to his credentials: http://darwin.wcupa.edu/faculty/hertel/Main/HomePage
Reply
anonymous says:
April 19, 2015 at 2:00 pm
I don’t know how we all got here but here’s a simple example of how creatures adapt to their environment. If my cat is an indoor cat and doesn’t have to stay outside in the winter, she doesn’t develop a “winter” coat of fur. Animals who have to stay outdoors in the wintertime, develop a really thick coat of fur and as soon as the weather warms up, all the winter fur falls out. Many animals have 2 colors of fur, one color for winter and another color for summer. It all helps them to survive the environment. Animals who develop white fur in the winter and their 2nd coat is brown in the summer, makes them harder to be seen by their enemies. If polar bears lose all their ice and the temperatures warm up, they probably won’t have as thick of fur. Who can explain this, except that species adapt to their surroundings, which sounds like evolution to me.
Does the Watchtower ever bring up stuff like that? It’s always the simple answer that we couldn’t have evolved from a one-celled amoeba so evolution is just a theory and the Bible’s account has to be right but many people believe in God in that he made everything that evolved into what it is today. So, they can still believe in God and evolution.
I remember years ago, there was an article in the Awake on how if you put a live sponge in a blender and put it back in the water, the thing will glue itself back together and be alive and the very same animal. What is that, except evolution? Could any human be put in a blender and glue itself back together to be the same person they were before? I don’t think so.
So, if God was making us “perfect” in his image, why didn’t he make it so that if our bodies are put in a wood chipper, that afterwards, we could glue ourselves back together? It seems that the sponge is much more highly evolved then us humans but us humans take that live sponge and kill it and then use it to wash our floors with and use it make sponge paintings on the wall.
Most animals have better eye sight than humans. Some turtles live hundreds of years. Even clams can live to be 500 years old. Parrots can live 200 years. Some trees live thousands of years. Something’s amiss if a loving God made us to be lower than the sponge because we can’t be glued back together and with worse eye sight than almost any animal.
It would make more sense not to blame all that on a God.
Reply
Ted says:
April 19, 2015 at 2:47 pm
Anonymous, I’m gonna have nightmares tonight
at the thought of being put into a wood chipper
Reply
anonymous says:
April 19, 2015 at 4:26 pm
Ted, the Awake article about the sponge being blended, reminded me of the movie Fargo, which I will never watch again because of the wood chipper scene.
Reply
Innocent Son says:
April 19, 2015 at 2:50 pm
Nothing more than a P.R. exercise by the Governing Body, let’s call it damage limitation….! They won’t admit of course to being wrong, or dishonest, that could never happen, just that the ‘Light keeps getting brighter’
Reply
Ted says:
April 19, 2015 at 4:02 pm
One has to question the mindset of these writers. How do they
square a Christian conscience with deliberate deception ?
Mis-quoting sources, taking a couple of lines out of context from
a complete article, shifting punctuation about to give a different
meaning, etc etc.
They may fool the trusting but gullible JWs, but they must know
It’s fraudulent, dishonest journalism. It’s sheer pharisaical
hypocrisy to hold ordinary JWs, to such a high standard while
they lie through their teeth.
As for giving apologies, sometimes when backed into a corner
having made fools of themselves. through a failed prediction
they may do so. But it always comes with an angle attached.
“The errors are JHVHs way of refining us, of sifting out the
unfaithful.”
Reply
Charles Costante says:
April 19, 2015 at 10:43 pm
“How do they square a Christian conscience with deliberate deception?”
Absolutely, Ted! They could never plead ignorance in a court of law because what they’ve done is so blatant. As I said earlier, the only thing they could plead is stupidity. They’ve done it for so long and got away with it, so why stop now? They’ve clearly forgotten we live in the Internet Age.
Reply
H.K. Fauskanger says:
April 20, 2015 at 12:45 am
I notice that even the emended version of the Awake article still bears the date “January 2015″, though it has actually been doctored at a later date. There is no indication that anything has been omitted or altered. Quite on the contrary, I believe they have very skillfully expanded the illustration at the top of the page, so that there would not be a telling blank space where the unfortunate quote once appeared.
I have to think of a passage from George Orwell’s “1984”, describing how the omnipotent Party under Big Brother shamelessly rewrites history as it sees fit:
“A number of The Times which might, because of changes in political alignment, or mistaken prophecies uttered by Big Brother, have been rewritten a dozen times still stood on the files bearing its original date, and no other copy existed to contradict it. Books, also, were recalled and rewritten again and again, and were invariably reissued without any admission that any alteration had been made.”
As for “mistaken prophecies”, one may consider the January 1, 1989 Watchtower Magazine. As originally published, it stated that Christian missionary work begun in the first century will “be completed in our 20th century”.
Yes, they were unreservedly predicting Armageddon before the end of the 1900s, certainly not for the first time, but possibly for the last time: With little more than a decade to go before this prophecy could be proven false, they finally got cold feet. When this and other issues were republished in bound volumes, the text had magically changed from “in our 20th century” to a rather less specific wording: “in our day”.
But of course, this is still presented as the January 1, 1989 Watchtower — in George Orwell’s words, “bearing its original date … reissued without any admission that any alteration had been made.”
Unlike the Big Brother Party of Orwell’s novel, the Watchtower is luckily not quite powerful enough to shred all copies of the original issue.
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David says:
April 20, 2015 at 2:36 am
The entire JW religion is based on misquoting.
We are in 2015, this alone proves that they are interpretations have been and will be squarely wrong!
But they will not rectify this, they will keep ruining people families until they’ll be shown for what they really are.
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James Broughton says:
April 20, 2015 at 5:01 am
Keep up the good work. I wrote to the Society after they published their new Bible, asking for names of scholars who supported their translation. They told me it was too soon after its release but sent me a list of names of those who supported earlier versions including one Alexander Thomson of Britain whom they also described as “under appointment to the queen for material regarding the Bible”. I checked this out with Buckingham Palace and they replied that “there is no record of his ever having had any connections with the Palace”. I rest my case.
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Cedars says:
April 20, 2015 at 5:04 am
Thanks for that information James. Would you be able to send me scanned copies of this correspondence?
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James Broughton says:
April 20, 2015 at 5:28 am
Scanned copy on its way.
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Anonymous123 says:
April 20, 2015 at 5:13 am
Quote has not been deleted from the Serbian and Italian versions. Maybe this will be done in the next few days. We’ll see!
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Elka Tire says:
April 20, 2015 at 10:49 am
Why the open letter written by Rama Singh dissapear from http://evol.mcmaster.ca/~brian/evoldir/Other/Awake.letter ???
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Charles Costante says:
April 20, 2015 at 3:01 pm
There’s another copy of the letter here, Elsa.
http://jwalumni.org/2015/01/17/rama-singh-awake/
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Charles Costante says:
April 20, 2015 at 3:03 pm
Sorry, Elka, I misspelled your name.
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Elka Tire says:
April 20, 2015 at 3:51 pm
Charles, I wonder if Rama got an agreement with the WT and took off the letter.
El Kato
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Charles Costante says:
April 20, 2015 at 10:35 pm
Who knows, Elka? I suppose only time will tell.
notanapologist says:
April 20, 2015 at 5:31 pm
Religion is the bane of man. Too bad the 911 terrorists did not target the watchtower headquarters in Brooklyn. Let the terrorists kill each other. Take out the 7 governing body and shoot them.
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AlF says:
April 20, 2015 at 5:55 pm
Here here! Bury the gb, the pope and all the ayatollahs with their watchtowers, bibles and qurans! The bible is the worst book ever! The Jesus story is a story about a Father torturing his own son to death! God needs no ritual sacrifice to forgive mankind! Even so, did it need to be such a gruesome and agonizing death? A sadistic man-made fantasy!
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Strangequark says:
April 20, 2015 at 10:58 pm
I noticed this change a few weeks ago. At the time the attached audio was not updated which amused me greatly.
It’s also funny how they replaced the dishonest text with just some more dishonest text.
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Excelsior! says:
April 21, 2015 at 2:24 am
notanapologist,
Your comment needs some thinking through.
You do realise that innocent people were on those planes, don’t you?
Do you have any evidence that the WTBTS has engaged in terrorist activities? How would you define terrorist acts?
Would the governing body of the Jehovah’s Witnesses receive any free and fair trial before they were shot?
I agree with your as to the ends, but I utterly reject the means.
It’s good that you care so deeply about the victims of the WTBTS. We can work together to hold the wtbts to account legally and peacefully, and I look forward to doing so with you.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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Fluffy says:
April 21, 2015 at 2:42 am
Of course in true Watchtower style, rather than appologise (the way a true journalist would be made to), they prefer to lie some more to cover their tracks. Sadly the majority of my ‘in’ family will never accept there is anything amiss in this, because how can Gods channel be held accountable, they are afterall just imperfect men. Im getting quite dizzy from all their circular reasoning!
Reply
Excelsior! says:
April 21, 2015 at 6:34 am
AIF,
What would happen after you had buried all these religious leaders? Do you think that the adherents of those religions would just take this extreme and illegal act lying down?
Your proposal would lead to brutal war, potentially without end.
Can’t you think of any book that is worse than the bible? I think there are plenty of books that I would consider far worse than the bible.
I agree that the “ransom sacrifice” is problematic. However, JESUS did say that he sacrificed himself for his friends.
I am an atheist, and I would like to see an end to religion. However, unlike your good self and notanapologist, I do not propose violent change.
The only way to see the end of religion peacefully is a long term education programme. Even this method may well prove to be unfruitful.
We should ensure that all religions obey the secular law, and be equal under the law. This can be achieved through political reform and debate, rather than violent action.
I agree with the ends, it’s just that the means would lead, in my opinion, to brutal war and the death of many innocent people whose only crime is to hold a religious faith.
I look forward to working with you to achieve our mutual aims in legal and peaceful ways.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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Driving Force says:
April 22, 2015 at 5:11 am
Misquoting things really seems to be a problem for the Watchtower.
I was looking at a back issue of an Awake magazine, and there was a quote from “Scientific American”, although the actual issue of the magazine was not quoted in the Awake. So I sent an inquiry to Scientific American asking if they would let me know from which issue that was, needless to say I did not receive a reply, but then from the Watchtower I would not have received a reply anyway.
I am mentioning this because as I speak English and German I compared the German issue of Awake, the Watchtower Society correctly translated the quote, but then claims it to be from a completely different magazine, “Spectrum der Wissenschaft”, which is not a translated Scientific American. So I sent an inquiry to the “Spectrum der Wissenschaft”, they did replay, but could not confirm that the quote was from one of their magazines. They did indicate an article that was discussing the same subject, but kindly pointed out that unless I can state from exactly which issue the quote came from, they could not confirm anything.
So for me the reply means that the Society are certainly not being honest.
This is really dumb, because they could have translated it and simply said that it was a quotation from Scientific American and everything would be fine.
The Awake in question was: October 2012 (The Bible—A Book of Accurate Prophecy—Part 6).
It would be interesting if this also occured with other languages.
Reply
anonymous says:
April 22, 2015 at 6:23 am
When I got involved in the “truth” in the 1960’s, the Watchtower and Awakes and the books used to put where they got their quotes from but as time went on, I noticed that the Society no longer would say where we could verify the information.
When I first noticed it, I remember it bothered me but it took many years later until I finally realized that they don’t put the sources where to find the quotes in the literature on purpose so that we can’t verify the information because they make it all up.
The Society relies on the fact that almost all Witnesses are blindly gullible into thinking that it is run by God himself and therefore they could never lie to them but unfortunately they are a bunch of liars and therefore could never actually be God’s “true” religion.
They are just a bunch of liars, out to cheat Witnesses out of their time, labor and money to line their pockets and buy up more and more real estate.
Misquoting or making up lies to influence gullible people into believing in that religion is just another cult tactic called deceitful recruiting tactics.
When I was in school and wrote up a paper, I had to site my sources and if I didn’t do that, I’d have gotten failing marks on any paper so lame.
Reply
theGreenWitness says:
April 22, 2015 at 6:35 am
Partial U-turn? So its more like an L-turn? I would say a J turn but thats a bit too cool for the society to pull off..
Reply
alan says:
April 23, 2015 at 1:33 pm
I sold a 1953 NWT to a JW on ebay and he offered me a “bible” study which I refused and told him that I have differences of opinions on various issues. He came back and asked me what they were. I mentioned the Singh qoute and showed him where it was misquoted. His replay was venemous to say the least. Basically he called me a liar and said that he wouldn’t listen if I quoted WT literature. I had to quote the Bible only. Ironic isn’t it as in order to answer any religious/Biblical questions I have, he would use the very publications he told me not to quote in order to answer them.
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Fulano says:
April 23, 2015 at 2:54 pm
Beneficie-se dá Escola do Ministério Teocrático página 225 sobre exatidão da matéria: “Além de verificar a confiabilidade das fontes, estude cuidadosamente como usar a informação. Certifique-se de usar citações e estatísticas em harmonia com o contexto do qual foram extraídas. Por exemplo, no esforço de expressar-se com veemência, cuide para que “algumas pessoas” não se transforme em “a maioria das pessoas”, nem “muitas pessoas” em “todas as pessoas”, e que “em certos casos” não se transforme em “sempre”. Superdimensionar assuntos ou exagerar informações envolvendo cifras, extensão ou gravidade de determinado fato põe em dúvida a credibilidade de quem as divulga.”
Atenção às últimas palavras dessa citação: “põe em dúvida a credibilidade de quem as divulga”.
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Fulano says:
April 23, 2015 at 3:00 pm
Be p. 225: “In addition to checking the reliability of the sources, consider carefully how you plan to use the information. Make sure that your use of quotations and statistics harmonizes with the context from which they are taken. In an effort to express yourself forcefully, be careful that “some people” does not become “the majority of people,” that “many people” does not become “everyone,” and that “in some cases” does not become “always.” Overstating matters or exaggerating reports involving number, extent, or seriousness raises questions of credibility.”
Focus on the last part: “raises questions of credibility.”
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