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Utah Judge orders Lesbian foster parents to surrender child. [+Update]
Posted: 12 November 2015 03:52 PM [ Ignore ]
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A CBS News story about a legally married lesbian couple has been ordered by a Utah judge to give up a foster daughter they have cared for for some time. The judge is a LDS bishop, and according to the couple, the judge said his ruling is based on a study he's read that says children do better in heterosexual homes. But, the judge refused to identify what study he's basing his decision. Even, the state department of children's services says they're not sure if the judge can remove the child from a legally approved foster home. Grrrrr!
http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/utah-judge-orders-baby-removed-from-lesbian-foster-parents
It'll be interesting to see how this situation is resolved. I hope the judge's decision gets reversed. And if it's proved that his ruling is only rooted in his religious beliefs, I hope he gets removed from the bench, or at least seriously sanctioned.
**UPDATE**
According to a KUTV Channel 2 News story, the Judge has changed his original court order. Apparently for the time being, the foster child won't have to be removed from her foster home within seven days as first ordered.
http://kutv.com/news/local/judge-changes-order-infant-foster-child-stays-with-same-sex-couple-for-now
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Posted: 12 November 2015 04:11 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Celestial Wedgie
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Aleut, I like how this comes on the heels of the policy controversy. The story is national and gives the church one more PR black eye. In the meantime I hope for the child and the foster parents that the order is reversed. Kids in foster care need stability more than they need a nation angry in their behalf.
Posted: 12 November 2015 04:23 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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I'm afraid this is direct result of the handbook change. I've drafted a complaint to the Judicial Conduct Commission. I'm going to sleep on it, as I've never in my career felt moved to do this. If I feel the same way tomorrow, I'm mailing it.
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Posted: 12 November 2015 04:29 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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C.W., You are right of course. Thanks for putting the emphasis back on the child's best interest. My frustration with the judge's decision, though justified IMO, ignored the more important issue; harm caused by disrupting this child's stable environment.
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Posted: 12 November 2015 04:34 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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I read this story earlier this morning on rt.com, which is a Russian news site. I thought that it was interesting that a Russian news site would pick up the story.
I feel that it is a result of the handbook change also. I feel that with this change that the more zeolous and self-rightous people and leaders in the church will feel that they have been given license to be asses.
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Posted: 12 November 2015 04:37 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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uncle bratty:
I read this story earlier this morning on rt.com, which is a Russian news site. I thought that it was interesting that a Russian news site would pick up the story.
I feel that it is a result of the handbook change also. I feel that with this change that the more zeolous and self-rightous people and leaders in the church will feel that they have been given license to be asses.
Sadly, I have to agree.
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“I’m having the best day of my life, and I owe it all to not going to Church!”—Homer Simpson, The Simpsons
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All comments, statements, opinions, suggestions, and information expressed, or quotes cited, represent the exclusive viewpoint of Aleut at that point in time and are NOT meant to compel or represent agreement by the reader. Aleut will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use.
Posted: 13 November 2015 03:31 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
I'm afraid this is direct result of the handbook change. I've drafted a complaint to the Judicial Conduct Commission. I'm going to sleep on it, as I've never in my career felt moved to do this. If I feel the same way tomorrow, I'm mailing it.
I hope you do mail it. This judge is definitely acting on his own, and not according to the law.
Posted: 13 November 2015 04:29 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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I've put it on hold until after the hearing on 12/4.
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Posted: 13 November 2015 04:47 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Just saw this posted on Yahoo. Isn't it amazing what public opinion can do? I wonder if the dirty 15 are not already sorry about their latest mistake.
http://news.yahoo.com/utah-judges-reverses-order-baby-lesbian-couple-175843629.html
Edited to Add: Sorry Aleut--did not see you had already posted this change.
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Posted: 13 November 2015 05:06 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Strong Free & Thankful:
Just saw this posted on Yahoo. Isn't it amazing what public opinion can do? I wonder if the dirty 15 are not already sorry about their latest mistake.
http://news.yahoo.com/utah-judges-reverses-order-baby-lesbian-couple-175843629.html
Edited to Add: Sorry Aleut--did not see you had already posted this change.
No problem S,F&T. The story to which you've linked adds details that I had not yet read. Thanks.
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“I’m having the best day of my life, and I owe it all to not going to Church!”—Homer Simpson, The Simpsons
“I don’t object to the concept of a deity, but I’m baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.”—Amy Farrah Fowler, The Big Bang Theory
“For the record, I do have genitals. They’re functional and aesthetically pleasing.”—Sheldon Cooper, The Big Bang Theory
All comments, statements, opinions, suggestions, and information expressed, or quotes cited, represent the exclusive viewpoint of Aleut at that point in time and are NOT meant to compel or represent agreement by the reader. Aleut will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use.
‹‹ I had an interesting conversation with an acquaintance... LDS LGBT ban update: children of mostly-straight parents and already-baptised children ››
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"LEAVING A LEGACY"
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LDS LGBT ban update: children of mostly-straight parents and already-baptised children
Posted: 13 November 2015 11:44 AM [ Ignore ]
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It looks like quite a few people had questions about how the new handbook guidance would affect their children.
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=37345295&nid=1016&title=lds-church-provides-additional-information-on-policies-about-same-sex-couples-and-their-children&s_cid=queue-7
Here are some take-aways.
1. Children of same-sex parents who were baptised before the new guidance came out beat the deadline. They can still receive priesthood blessings and participate in church while living with their same-sex parents. But presumably if they have younger brothers/sisters who did not make the deadline, the younger kids cannot be baptised.
2. Children who have divorced/separated parents, where one parent is in a same-sex relationship, may still be baptised if they primarily live with the non-apostate parent.
3. Gay marriage (and same-sex cohabitation) is still a sin of apostasy magnitude and children of gay couples are otherwise all still banned from baptism and the blessings of the church.
In the future, how many single parents will wait until their children are baptised before "coming out", for the benefit of their children? A lot of couples wait until their kids move out of the house before getting divorced "for the sake of the children".
Clarity
Posted: 13 November 2015 12:36 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Another important takeaway: when LDS couples divorce and one of them is gay, the hetero spouse has an added incentive to fight like hell to be the primary residential parent.
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Posted: 13 November 2015 03:35 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Oh my heck. It just keeps getting stupider and stupider. As if the base policy was not random and arbitrary enough, they're now adding on extra layers of random and arbitrary.
As one of the feminist mormon housewives pointed out, it's not the ordinances that are going to cause confusion and hurt, it is the teachings. Unless they double down and ban children of gay couples from attending church altogether, the policy does nothing to "protect" children. What it does is protect the church from having members who are part of, and present a sympathetic face of, gay-parented families.
From the church's statement:
"The letter also said that children who already have been baptized and are active in the church but are living with same-gender couples can continue to receive priesthood ordinances. Local leaders are authorized to make decisions based on the preparation and best interests of each child."
That could have been/should haved been your entire policy, you knuckleheads.
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‹‹ Utah Judge orders Lesbian foster parents to surrender child. [+Update] Great Resignation Letter (as read by comedian, Lewis Black) ››
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2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
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Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
Financial Report for 2009
Twin Falls Newspaper Article
Twin Falls Billboard
Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
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Native American DNA
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The Sin of Legitimizing Homosexual Unions
Posted: 10 November 2015 12:44 PM [ Ignore ]
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Celestial Wedgie
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The core of the new LDS church policy is not about reaffirming that homosexuality behavior is a sin according to doctrine. There are actually no significant changes on that front. Instead, what the new policy addresses is the apparently greater sin of granting legitimacy to homosexual unions. The brethren in the Church Office Building have instead clarified that anything that legitimizes gay relationships has been elevated in the hierarchy of sin. What is so fascinating is that the sin second only to murder is actually the sin ahead of murder in terms of the number of people who can be punished or painfully affected.
Homosexual behavior that doesn't include living together remains unchanged in the roster of LDS evils.
If a person is not in a gay marriage or living in a stable gay relationship then that person is still allowed to hold the political opinion that gay marriage is okay. It is unique that now their kids are also barred from holding the political opinion that gay marriage is okay.
Some Mormons have claimed that this is no different than excluding children of polygamy from baptism. But this is different.
I have not found access to the entire Handbook 1, but the sections that have been printed because of the recent policy changes show nothing about polygamy. Even if kids of polygamy are specified in the handbook somewhere, I suspect that the specifics do not include the exclusionary criterion of no ordinances for a child if either parent ever lived in polygamy. Maybe I'm wrong on this. If someone could show me those passages in Handbook 1 then I will gladly acknowledge my error on this.
Second, the apology that "we did this before" only compounds the problem. I remember laughing at the reasoning in the LDS essay Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo. The mystery author emphasized that Joseph Smith probably didn't have sex with some of the women. That somehow makes it better? The same misdirection is at play in the new policy regarding children of gay parents: having hurt a few kids in the past is used as cover for hurting more kids now. That somehow makes it better? What manner of morality is the LDS church espousing?
So the LDS church lost its effort to ban homosexual marriage. It retreats back to the halls of its buildings and doubles down on gays (at least the married/cohabiting ones) and their children. I can almost hear a muffled echo coming from the chapel, "No one--not the members, not the Gentiles--can tell us what is right!"
Indeed.
Posted: 10 November 2015 01:40 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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I do believe there is a separate section that addresses children being raised by polygamous parents. The problem is that the church doesn't make volume 1 of the handbook publicly available. They even sued the Tanner's serveral years ago for linking to a copy of it.
I recall seeing the section somewhere. I'll try and dig it up.
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Posted: 10 November 2015 07:03 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Ah thanks because I'd like to know for sure.
‹‹ LDS Assault On Kids Found To Be Worse Temple married couple who discover a child is gay ››
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Temple married couple who discover a child is gay
Posted: 10 November 2015 03:37 PM [ Ignore ]
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Is the kid now thrown out of the heavenly family?
Gay parents can't have their kids as members - does it work the other way around with straight members and gay kids?
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Posted: 10 November 2015 08:07 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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I asked that same question to many people. Not one answer back. Guess that blew their brainwashed minds.
Posted: 10 November 2015 11:44 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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What about the baptized children between 8 and 18 years old, who have a parent who comes out as gay and leaves to be with their same sex partner? Is that child immediately excommunicated?
Posted: 11 November 2015 02:38 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Remember that iconic NASA slogan astronauts have shared with each other unofficially for years and years?
"BETTER OFF DEAD THAN LOOK BAD!"
It just so happens to be sexualized LDS doctrine.
Soft cults like Mormonism are much worse than hard cults like the FLDS groups.
I still think Marie Osmond doesn't allow the fact that her gay son jumped to his death because of Mormon teachings, enter her mind. Marie Osmond is living in OZ!
http://m.huffpost.com/us/news/marie-osmond-son-suicide
An influential spokesperson would do a lot towards justice, sharing somehow that her dearly beloved son did not fully die in vain. The boy doesn't have to remain dead in cause.
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Posted: 11 November 2015 05:51 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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I'm "temple married" and one of my son's is gay. Which is why I refuse to contribute money, time or talent to this faux-church. The "celestial-marriage" myth is just that....a myth. LDS-ism...is not christian...and this latest bishop's handbook entry proves it.
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Posted: 10 November 2015 10:32 AM [ Ignore ]
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Not a mercy belief system, apparently when children are attacked!
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/8500500
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Posted: 10 November 2015 12:21 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Great link, Joseph's Myth: thanks for it.
It's interesting to me: I'm not seeing as much on Facebook and I know several believing Mormons who are deeply bothered by this policy change. But there are also others who are retreating back into their well-defined communities and singing together about being the persecuted, long-suffering, chosen people.
Posted: 10 November 2015 12:44 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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"It turns out, it is actually worse than what was reported."
Also from huffpost, an interesting article looking at the social psychology approach to the divide on this issue:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/benjamin-knoll/explaining-reactions-to-the-mormon-policy-change-on-same-sex-marriage_b_8507438.html
Posted: 10 November 2015 05:35 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Dovolente:
"It turns out, it is actually worse than what was reported."
Also from huffpost, an interesting article looking at the social psychology approach to the divide on this issue:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/benjamin-knoll/explaining-reactions-to-the-mormon-policy-change-on-same-sex-marriage_b_8507438.html
Thank you Dovolente for posting this great article! The explanations of how conservative and liberals have different systems and which one is on the "caring" side is something I have noticed but this makes scientific sense. The jest of the article seems to say that the different views of conservative and liberal mormons make the issues here irreconcilable. In short, LDS, Inc really has shot itself in the foot. I wonder if they really don't care and see it to their advantage to keep the conservatives happy at all costs and count on making future billions mostly from the investments they stole from us--10% at a time.
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Posted: 10 November 2015 07:03 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Actually I think the policy is probably a kindness. It's like Bernie Madoff saying that he won't take your money.
When you get a very clear signal that you're not wanted and not going to be included no matter what you do. It should make it easier to leave and protect those children from the victimization/indoctrination of the church. I wish my family had left when I was a child. I hope they can find a loving and accepting church home.
Posted: 10 November 2015 07:32 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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peace out:
Actually I think the policy is probably a kindness. It's like Bernie Madoff saying that he won't take your money.
When you get a very clear signal that you're not wanted and not going to be included no matter what you do. It should make it easier to leave and protect those children from the victimization/indoctrination of the church. I wish my family had left when I was a child. I hope they can find a loving and accepting church home.
Absolutely. It is a good thing for the kids and probably for the parents and for the rest of the world as well. I might call it a benefit instead of a kindness--just me--kindness to me represents intent. I think LDS, Inc did this out of their self-serving goals in mind and not to be kind to the parents or children affected. Seems to me it will benefit the entire world as it shows just one way this "famillies are forever" church can greatly hurt its members. I do agree with your thoughts on this peace out.
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Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 10 November 2015 08:03 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Strong Free & Thankful:
peace out:
Actually I think the policy is probably a kindness. It's like Bernie Madoff saying that he won't take your money.
When you get a very clear signal that you're not wanted and not going to be included no matter what you do. It should make it easier to leave and protect those children from the victimization/indoctrination of the church. I wish my family had left when I was a child. I hope they can find a loving and accepting church home.
Absolutely. It is a good thing for the kids and probably for the parents and for the rest of the world as well. I might call it a benefit instead of a kindness--just me--kindness to me represents intent. I think LDS, Inc tto did this out of their self-serving goals in mind and not to be kind to the parents or children affected. Seems to me it will benefit the entire world as it shows just one way this "famillies are forever" church can greatly hurt its members. I do agree with your thoughts on this peace out.
Oh I agree they truly intended to be exclusionary and manipulative.
And are attempting to apply undue influence.
But the whole damn thing as a pile of crap right from the beginning so the quicker you leave the better off you are .
Posted: 11 November 2015 05:54 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Can't wait to see if any "charitable organizations dealing with children" will refund any aid received from the mormon church. That would make some news rumbles.
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Posted: 11 November 2015 09:04 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Just wondering how many children are affected by this?
I mean really, how many gay couples raising children are in the church?
Why stay in the LDS church if you are gay?
So we are going to try to force the LDS church to accept gay marriage? Because you're going to kinda have to rewrite the Bible to do that. Oh? Things have changed? We need an updated understanding of equality and love, you say. And the gentleman in the back of the room says Jesus doesn't care if he is gay, that Heaven does not discriminate on sexual preference. Oh, I see. So you are going to put it right and work to redefine a church that accepts the new norm of morality: homosexuality.
I think there are way too many haters on this issue. I know there is an irresistable urge to justify your behaviors with other adults and you don't see it as anything wrong. You want to be open and honest about it so that you don't have to feel like your hiding a dark secret. You enjoy meeting people and being active and hiding who you really are hurts in many ways. You're an adult and can make your own decisions as to who will be your partner in your bedroom; what does that have to do with morality if both parents are the same sex? Why can't you be accepted for who you are? I totally get it.
However I do view that reasoning as a little selfish. Nobody I know of is playing bedroom police. You are free in there. But these acts should stay in the bedroom. The family unit is the most sacred structure of our society- even of our humanity. There is so much good that comes from traditional values and roles, that of a mother and father. Why would you undermine that? Why can't your decision stay in the bedroom where it belongs- not on the bus, street corner or Walmart checkout. No- you want to go one step further and adopt a child, teach and encourage that soul that being gay is an option. You're allowed by law to do that now. Be who you are. But I'm telling you that the LDS Church is going to let Joseph Smith go to the wolves long before they stop defending traditional marriage. That is the bedrock of our strength and spirit as pioneers. When the rest of our nation begins to crumble under this burden we might be faced with a very strong local culture.
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Posted: 11 November 2015 09:52 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Starfleet:
Just wondering how many children are affected by this?
I mean really, how many gay couples raising children are in the church?
Why stay in the LDS church if you are gay?
So we are going to try to force the LDS church to accept gay marriage? Because you're going to kinda have to rewrite the Bible to do that. Oh? Things have changed? We need an updated understanding of equality and love, you say. And the gentleman in the back of the room says Jesus doesn't care if he is gay, that Heaven does not discriminate on sexual preference. Oh, I see. So you are going to put it right and work to redefine a church that accepts the new norm of morality: homosexuality.
I think there are way too many haters on this issue. I know there is an irresistable urge to justify your behaviors with other adults and you don't see it as anything wrong. You want to be open and honest about it so that you don't have to feel like your hiding a dark secret. You enjoy meeting people and being active and hiding who you really are hurts in many ways. You're an adult and can make your own decisions as to who will be your partner in your bedroom; what does that have to do with morality if both parents are the same sex? Why can't you be accepted for who you are? I totally get it.
However I do view that reasoning as a little selfish. Nobody I know of is playing bedroom police. You are free in there. But these acts should stay in the bedroom. The family unit is the most sacred structure of our society- even of our humanity. There is so much good that comes from traditional values and roles, that of a mother and father. Why would you undermine that? Why can't your decision stay in the bedroom where it belongs- not on the bus, street corner or Walmart checkout. No- you want to go one step further and adopt a child, teach and encourage that soul that being gay is an option. You're allowed by law to do that now. Be who you are. But I'm telling you that the LDS Church is going to let Joseph Smith go to the wolves long before they stop defending traditional marriage. That is the bedrock of our strength and spirit as pioneers. When the rest of our nation begins to crumble under this burden we might be faced with a very strong local culture.
Morality isn't something you create for yourself. It is something you defend.
Based on your in-depth knowledge, I'm curious if you "suffer" from same-sex attraction?
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“If they can get you to believe in absurdity, then they can get you to commit atrocity.” -Voltaire
Posted: 11 November 2015 09:55 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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Winyan
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Starfleet:
Just wondering how many children are affected by this?
I mean really, how many gay couples raising children are in the church?
Why stay in the LDS church if you are gay?
So we are going to try to force the LDS church to accept gay marriage? Because you're going to kinda have to rewrite the Bible to do that. Oh? Things have changed? We need an updated understanding of equality and love, you say. And the gentleman in the back of the room says Jesus doesn't care if he is gay, that Heaven does not discriminate on sexual preference. Oh, I see. So you are going to put it right and work to redefine a church that accepts the new norm of morality: homosexuality.
I think there are way too many haters on this issue. I know there is an irresistable urge to justify your behaviors with other adults and you don't see it as anything wrong. You want to be open and honest about it so that you don't have to feel like your hiding a dark secret. You enjoy meeting people and being active and hiding who you really are hurts in many ways. You're an adult and can make your own decisions as to who will be your partner in your bedroom; what does that have to do with morality if both parents are the same sex? Why can't you be accepted for who you are? I totally get it.
However I do view that reasoning as a little selfish. Nobody I know of is playing bedroom police. You are free in there. But these acts should stay in the bedroom. The family unit is the most sacred structure of our society- even of our humanity. There is so much good that comes from traditional values and roles, that of a mother and father. Why would you undermine that? Why can't your decision stay in the bedroom where it belongs- not on the bus, street corner or Walmart checkout. No- you want to go one step further and adopt a child, teach and encourage that soul that being gay is an option. You're allowed by law to do that now. Be who you are. But I'm telling you that the LDS Church is going to let Joseph Smith go to the wolves long before they stop defending traditional marriage. That is the bedrock of our strength and spirit as pioneers. When the rest of our nation begins to crumble under this burden we might be faced with a very strong local culture.
Morality isn't something you create for yourself. It is something you defend.
This is about making innocent children outcasts. It's about using children to punish the parents. It's despicable.
Posted: 11 November 2015 10:11 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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WinstonSmith
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Starfleet:
Just wondering how many children are affected by this?
I mean really, how many gay couples raising children are in the church?
Why stay in the LDS church if you are gay?
So we are going to try to force the LDS church to accept gay marriage? Because you're going to kinda have to rewrite the Bible to do that. Oh? Things have changed? We need an updated understanding of equality and love, you say. And the gentleman in the back of the room says Jesus doesn't care if he is gay, that Heaven does not discriminate on sexual preference. Oh, I see. So you are going to put it right and work to redefine a church that accepts the new norm of morality: homosexuality.
I think there are way too many haters on this issue. I know there is an irresistable urge to justify your behaviors with other adults and you don't see it as anything wrong. You want to be open and honest about it so that you don't have to feel like your hiding a dark secret. You enjoy meeting people and being active and hiding who you really are hurts in many ways. You're an adult and can make your own decisions as to who will be your partner in your bedroom; what does that have to do with morality if both parents are the same sex? Why can't you be accepted for who you are? I totally get it.
However I do view that reasoning as a little selfish. Nobody I know of is playing bedroom police. You are free in there. But these acts should stay in the bedroom. The family unit is the most sacred structure of our society- even of our humanity. There is so much good that comes from traditional values and roles, that of a mother and father. Why would you undermine that? Why can't your decision stay in the bedroom where it belongs- not on the bus, street corner or Walmart checkout. No- you want to go one step further and adopt a child, teach and encourage that soul that being gay is an option. You're allowed by law to do that now. Be who you are. But I'm telling you that the LDS Church is going to let Joseph Smith go to the wolves long before they stop defending traditional marriage. That is the bedrock of our strength and spirit as pioneers. When the rest of our nation begins to crumble under this burden we might be faced with a very strong local culture.
Morality isn't something you create for yourself. It is something you defend.
I have had some of the same questions. If what you imply is that children with same sex parents, is small then why make such a harsh policy?
I cannot and refuse to make judgement as to why same sex couple choose to stay in the church. I would suggest that the reasons are deep and profound and does not merit our judgement.
Many people have been deeply hurt by the Church---so will haters use this opprotunity to push their agenda? Absolutely!!! Who would pass up the chance to point out a policy that is so hypocritical of the foundation of the very truth the church claims. Not to mention Jesus, from whence their claim to power and authority---taught the exact opposite---but then again maybe jesus was speaking as a man and not a god.
I am still just speachless and dumb founded that the Church would make such a blunder so obvious, invite critics so quickly and cause so much cognative dissonance among its members.
We no longer live in the world of the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 80s, 90s. The Q15 are so out of touch with the worlds reality---and policies like this is proof.
Personally I would like to see the policy ammended. I believe no child under the legal age of adulthood should be allowed to be baptized into the Mormon Church or any other church for that matter.
Yes the Church defends Traditional Marriage until it comes to Mormon non-traditional marriage (i.e. polygamy, polyandary, almost 15 year old girls).
When you get down to the root, the Church only defends its power and portfolio. They will throw anyone or anything to the wolves as an act of self preservation. This is why I predict in the future this policy will be reversed and chalked up as men behaving like men and not behaving like men of god.
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“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” -Marcus Aurelius
Posted: 11 November 2015 10:33 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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Celestial Wedgie
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WinstonSmith:
[snip]
When you get down to the root, the Church only defends its power and portfolio. They will throw anyone or anything to the wolves as an act of self preservation. This is why I predict in the future this policy will be reversed and chalked up as men behaving like men and not behaving like men of god.
Very well stated, Winston. This is exactly the issue, the LDS church brandishing power for the sake of power.
Posted: 11 November 2015 10:41 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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tab
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The Bible Says A lot of things... This policy brings back Prop 8 memories... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_hyT7_Bx9o
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“If they can get you to believe in absurdity, then they can get you to commit atrocity.” -Voltaire
Posted: 11 November 2015 10:45 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
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Winyan
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Just wondering how many children are affected by this?
I mean really, how many gay couples raising children are in the church?
Why stay in the LDS church if you are gay?
Do you still believe in the polygamy you were raised in?
Posted: 11 November 2015 01:13 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
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Do you still believe in the polygamy you were raised in?
I believe Joseph Smith can not be faulted on moral grounds for having more than one wife.
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Posted: 11 November 2015 07:01 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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Starfleet:
Do you still believe in the polygamy you were raised in?
I believe Joseph Smith can not be faulted on moral grounds for having more than one wife.
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Could that be because you are not a woman? As a woman, I find polygamy to be disrespectful and abusive to women and the children who had to share their dad with other families. I believe to blame polygamy on god is to say that god is abusive and disrespectful. I can tell you--I want no part of a god who would ask me to share my man. In many places in the Bible, rape, murder, killing of innocent children, slavery and god killing more people in anger than it records satan as killing is normal. There seems to be just as much evil in the Bible--called good--as there is good--called good. Therefore, I choose to keep the good, throw out the bad and realize that it was humans who wrote the Bible--not god. So...proving something with the Bible no longer holds water--in my book.
And for a church which believes in up-holding the laws of the land, Joseph Smith did not marry those young girls or other men's wives. He only manipulated them into believing they were married so they would give him sex and sometimes--money. The law of the land made all marriages after the first null and void before they even began.
While we are giving brother Joseph a break, why not give Warren Jeffs a break as well and fight to get him out of prison. After all, almost everything that got Warren locked up was first done by Joseph Smith. We can't have it both ways.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 11 November 2015 07:35 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 17 ]
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josephs myth
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Strong Free & Thankful:
Starfleet:
Do you still believe in the polygamy you were raised in?
I believe Joseph Smith can not be faulted on moral grounds for having more than one wife.
Could that be because you are not a woman? As a woman, I find polygamy to be disrespectful and abusive to women and the children who had to share their dad with other families. I believe to blame polygamy on god is to say that god is abusive and disrespectful. I can tell you--I want no part of a god who would ask me to share my man. In many places in the Bible, rape, murder, killing of innocent children, slavery and god killing more people in anger than it records satan as killing is normal. There seems to be just as much evil in the Bible--called good--as there is good--called good. Therefore, I choose to keep the good, throw out the bad and realize that it was humans who wrote the Bible--not god. So...proving something with the Bible no longer holds water--in my book.
And for a church which believes in up-holding the laws of the land, Joseph Smith did not marry those young girls or other men's wives. He only manipulated them into believing they were married so they would give him sex and sometimes--money. The law of the land made all marriages after the first null and void before they even began.
While we are giving brother Joseph a break, why not give Warren Jeffs a break as well and fight to get him out of prison. After all, almost everything that got Warren locked up was first done by Joseph Smith. We can't have it both ways.
The only way I can give Joseph Smith a break is if somehow I were to revert back into Stockholm Syndrome again.
I don't see that happening. I could however maybe see myself pulling the gallows lever tho... haha.
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Posted: 11 November 2015 07:46 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 18 ]
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josephs myth:
Strong Free & Thankful:
Starfleet:
Do you still believe in the polygamy you were raised in?
I believe Joseph Smith can not be faulted on moral grounds for having more than one wife.
Could that be because you are not a woman? As a woman, I find polygamy to be disrespectful and abusive to women and the children who had to share their dad with other families. I believe to blame polygamy on god is to say that god is abusive and disrespectful. I can tell you--I want no part of a god who would ask me to share my man. In many places in the Bible, rape, murder, killing of innocent children, slavery and god killing more people in anger than it records satan as killing is normal. There seems to be just as much evil in the Bible--called good--as there is good--called good. Therefore, I choose to keep the good, throw out the bad and realize that it was humans who wrote the Bible--not god. So...proving something with the Bible no longer holds water--in my book.
And for a church which believes in up-holding the laws of the land, Joseph Smith did not marry those young girls or other men's wives. He only manipulated them into believing they were married so they would give him sex and sometimes--money. The law of the land made all marriages after the first null and void before they even began.
While we are giving brother Joseph a break, why not give Warren Jeffs a break as well and fight to get him out of prison. After all, almost everything that got Warren locked up was first done by Joseph Smith. We can't have it both ways.
The only way I can give Joseph Smith a break is if somehow I were to revert back into Stockholm Syndrome again.
I don't see that happening. I could however maybe see myself pulling the gallows lever tho... haha.
josephs myth--we feel your pain and we smile with your humor. Someone should have stopped him back then--maybe the group who tarred and feathered him. Perhaps they could have targeted a different area and saved a lot of women from him. I am going to bed now. I am getting out of hand here.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 11 November 2015 11:03 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 19 ]
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tab
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Starfleet:
Do you still believe in the polygamy you were raised in?
I believe Joseph Smith can not be faulted on moral grounds for having more than one wife.
Do you believe there is morality in harm and abuse?
As Chief Justice Bauman of the Supreme Court of British Columbia stated in the FLDS Bountiful decision:
-"I have concluded that this case is essentially about harm.” Important note: this is not about moral and religious choices, proper relationships, marriage equality for same gender couples, consenting adults or changing societal attitudes.
-"The prevention of [the] collective harms associated with polygamy to women and children, especially, is clearly an objective that is pressing and substantial." -"Polygamy's harm to society includes the critical fact that a great many of its individual harms are not specific to any particular religious, cultural or regional context. They can be generalized and expected to occur wherever polygamy exists.
-Women in polygamous relationships are at an elevated risk of physical and psychological harm.
-Children in polygamous families face higher infant mortality, even controlling for economic status and other relevant variables.
-Early marriage for girls is common, frequently to significantly older men. The sex ratio imbalance inherent in polygamy means that young men are forced out of polygamous communities to sustain the ability of senior men to accumulate more wives.
-Polygamy has negative impacts on society flowing from the high fertility rates, large family size and poverty associated with the practice.
-Harms against women include: exploitation; commodification; social isolation; the inevitable favouritism of some women and deprecation of others within the household; discrimination; and, impoverishment.
-Harms against children include: the negative impacts on their development caused by discord, violence and exploitation in the marital home; competition between mothers and siblings for the limited attention of the father; diminishment of the democratic citizenship capabilities of children as a result of being raised by mothers deprived of their basic rights; impoverishment; and, violation of their fundamental dignity.
-Polygamy harms good citizenship; threats to political stability; and the undermining of human dignity and equality.
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“If they can get you to believe in absurdity, then they can get you to commit atrocity.” -Voltaire
Posted: 12 November 2015 05:02 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 20 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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Joined 2010-05-22
tab:
Starfleet:
Do you still believe in the polygamy you were raised in?
I believe Joseph Smith can not be faulted on moral grounds for having more than one wife.
Do you believe there is morality in harm and abuse?
As Chief Justice Bauman of the Supreme Court of British Columbia stated in the FLDS Bountiful decision:
-"I have concluded that this case is essentially about harm.” Important note: this is not about moral and religious choices, proper relationships, marriage equality for same gender couples, consenting adults or changing societal attitudes.
-"The prevention of [the] collective harms associated with polygamy to women and children, especially, is clearly an objective that is pressing and substantial." -"Polygamy's harm to society includes the critical fact that a great many of its individual harms are not specific to any particular religious, cultural or regional context. They can be generalized and expected to occur wherever polygamy exists.
-Women in polygamous relationships are at an elevated risk of physical and psychological harm.
-Children in polygamous families face higher infant mortality, even controlling for economic status and other relevant variables.
-Early marriage for girls is common, frequently to significantly older men. The sex ratio imbalance inherent in polygamy means that young men are forced out of polygamous communities to sustain the ability of senior men to accumulate more wives.
-Polygamy has negative impacts on society flowing from the high fertility rates, large family size and poverty associated with the practice.
-Harms against women include: exploitation; commodification; social isolation; the inevitable favouritism of some women and deprecation of others within the household; discrimination; and, impoverishment.
-Harms against children include: the negative impacts on their development caused by discord, violence and exploitation in the marital home; competition between mothers and siblings for the limited attention of the father; diminishment of the democratic citizenship capabilities of children as a result of being raised by mothers deprived of their basic rights; impoverishment; and, violation of their fundamental dignity.
-Polygamy harms good citizenship; threats to political stability; and the undermining of human dignity and equality.
And all of this abuse--done to who knows how many tens of thousands of polygamists since Joseph Smith started this harmful sex scam can be absolutely linked back to Joseph Smith. Being a victim of this type of abuse as a child--without the polygamy--but with the almost exact same Joseph Smith speech of the promise of guaranteed highest degree of heaven for the entire family, I can tell you I believe Joseph Smith should have received the death penalty. So much suffering he has caused. How can anyone be so blind as to not see how many have been harmed and are still being harmed?
Good info Tab--Thanks!
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
‹‹ Shhhh... Most LDS Families Aren’t Forever (Kirby) The Sin of Legitimizing Homosexual Unions ››
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