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(New) Sacred LDS Temple Room Pics
Posted: 29 December 2015 10:13 AM [ Ignore ]
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josephs myth
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It's okay, maybe no pics after the official dedication is over.
Still, strangely weird isn't it?
http://m.heraldextra.com/special-section/paysontemple/story/lds-church-gives-first-look-inside-payson-utah-temple/collection_bf483ba0-f715-5dd4-8de1-e712ea594ef5.html?mobile_touch=true
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Posted: 29 December 2015 10:28 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Good ol' mormons, building castles for the dead while neglecting the living since 1833! (date of Kirtland temple construction)
By the way, there's an error in one of these photos, the reference should be Acts 17:24.
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Posted: 29 December 2015 11:34 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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josephs myth:
It's okay, maybe no pics after the official dedication is over.
Still, strangely weird isn't it?
http://m.heraldextra.com/special-section/paysontemple/story/lds-church-gives-first-look-inside-payson-utah-temple/collection_bf483ba0-f715-5dd4-8de1-e712ea594ef5.html?mobile_touch=true
I think that's how it's worked since at least the '70s. Before the dedication, the public can tour the temple and folks can take pictures.
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Posted: 29 December 2015 01:04 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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josephs myth
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
josephs myth:
It's okay, maybe no pics after the official dedication is over.
Still, strangely weird isn't it?
http://m.heraldextra.com/special-section/paysontemple/story/lds-church-gives-first-look-inside-payson-utah-temple/collection_bf483ba0-f715-5dd4-8de1-e712ea594ef5.html?mobile_touch=true
I think that's how it's worked since at least the '70s. Before the dedication, the public can tour the temple and folks can take pictures.
Yes, but tell me the last time you remember the Mormon church (small C) promoted the insides of their super duper secret sacred temples. Next comes an interior lookalike virtiual video tour, similar to what real estate companies might use.
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Posted: 29 December 2015 01:18 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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josephs myth:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
josephs myth:
It's okay, maybe no pics after the official dedication is over.
Still, strangely weird isn't it?
http://m.heraldextra.com/special-section/paysontemple/story/lds-church-gives-first-look-inside-payson-utah-temple/collection_bf483ba0-f715-5dd4-8de1-e712ea594ef5.html?mobile_touch=true
I think that's how it's worked since at least the '70s. Before the dedication, the public can tour the temple and folks can take pictures.
Yes, but tell me the last time you remember the Mormon church (small C) promoted the insides of their super duper secret sacred temples. Next comes an interior lookalike virtiual video tour, similar to what real estate companies might use.
When I was a kid, new temples were lots more rare. I thought they always promoted the insides until they were dedicated. It's not the physical appearance of the rooms that is held sacred -- it is the ceremonies themselves. At least that's my recollection.
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Posted: 29 December 2015 02:16 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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josephs myth
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
josephs myth:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
josephs myth:
It's okay, maybe no pics after the official dedication is over.
Still, strangely weird isn't it?
http://m.heraldextra.com/special-section/paysontemple/story/lds-church-gives-first-look-inside-payson-utah-temple/collection_bf483ba0-f715-5dd4-8de1-e712ea594ef5.html?mobile_touch=true
I think that's how it's worked since at least the '70s. Before the dedication, the public can tour the temple and folks can take pictures.
Yes, but tell me the last time you remember the Mormon church (small C) promoted the insides of their super duper secret sacred temples. Next comes an interior lookalike virtiual video tour, similar to what real estate companies might use.
When I was a kid, new temples were lots more rare. I thought they always promoted the insides until they were dedicated. It's not the physical appearance of the rooms that is held sacred -- it is the ceremonies themselves. At least that's my recollection.
OIC, that's why they're sometimes considered maybe rare.
http://kboi2.com/news/local/photos-public-to-get-rare-look-inside-boises-mormon-temple
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Posted: 29 December 2015 02:29 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Some of those pictures remind me of the Warren Jeffs movie on Lifetime that was very graphic.
Posted: 29 December 2015 02:50 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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josephs myth:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
josephs myth:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
josephs myth:
It's okay, maybe no pics after the official dedication is over.
Still, strangely weird isn't it?
http://m.heraldextra.com/special-section/paysontemple/story/lds-church-gives-first-look-inside-payson-utah-temple/collection_bf483ba0-f715-5dd4-8de1-e712ea594ef5.html?mobile_touch=true
I think that's how it's worked since at least the '70s. Before the dedication, the public can tour the temple and folks can take pictures.
Yes, but tell me the last time you remember the Mormon church (small C) promoted the insides of their super duper secret sacred temples. Next comes an interior lookalike virtiual video tour, similar to what real estate companies might use.
When I was a kid, new temples were lots more rare. I thought they always promoted the insides until they were dedicated. It's not the physical appearance of the rooms that is held sacred -- it is the ceremonies themselves. At least that's my recollection.
OIC, that's why they're sometimes considered maybe rare.
http://kboi2.com/news/local/photos-public-to-get-rare-look-inside-boises-mormon-temple
Well, "rare" if you measure it over the life of a specific temple, I suppose. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about publicizing the temple, letting non-memers tour it, taking pictures, etc. before it is dedicated. As I understand it, that's not rare. It's common with new temples (and for temples that are rennovated and then rededicated)" I don't find it any more "strangely weird" than aspects of most other religions.
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Posted: 29 December 2015 03:10 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Tessa
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Just looks like a Hotel with foyers...and chairs/couches. Each of the chairs will have the all-seeing-eyeball carved into them...or the lamps posts will have them. Gotta have god watch everything done in the building, ya know.
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Posted: 29 December 2015 03:18 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Tessa:
Just looks like a Hotel with foyers...and chairs/couches. Each of the chairs will have the all-seeing-eyeball carved into them...or the lamps posts will have them. Gotta have god watch everything done in the building, ya know.
LOL. I liked some of the murals, but the Celestial room left me cold. I kept wondering "Oh man, is this what the CK is like? Am I going to have to look at these chandeliers forever?"
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Posted: 29 December 2015 03:39 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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dave (e_nomo)
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When I was a young convert I remember a magazine type book that had photos of all the temples, inside and out. There weren't that many back then.
I have to agree with Tessa about celestial rooms looking like nice hotel lobbies.
Not especially weird, just boring. Not particularly inspirational.
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Posted: 29 December 2015 09:07 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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Yes--like a Hotel Hilton but the only time you get any sleep in between signs and tokens. An expensive building--built upon the backs some wealthy but mostly on the backs of the poor. How many did without dental work or financially helping needy family members--in order so this cult could build an expensive prop?
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 29 December 2015 10:40 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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josephs myth
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http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865638257/Banner-year-for-LDS-temple-openings-construction.html?pg=all
http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/central/provo/provo-woman-s-glass-temples-are-all-over-the-world/article_90320874-630d-5e9f-aec2-31a097ebc552.html
I may be wrong, but with Monson closing in on his death bed and then Mormonism facing sure disaster with this giamougous Internet thing goings on, the LDS temple wagon seems to be circling tighter and tighter.
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Posted: 01 January 2016 12:59 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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dave (e_nomo):
When I was a young convert I remember a magazine type book that had photos of all the temples, inside and out. There weren't that many back then.
I have to agree with Tessa about celestial rooms looking like nice hotel lobbies.
Not especially weird, just boring. Not particularly inspirational.
I agree that celestial rooms look more like hotel lobbies than someplace representing the CK. I was a convert, and I got out before I could go to the temple. The reason I saw pictures of those rooms was that my TBM ex had one of those magazine type of books that had pictures taken inside those rooms.
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"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
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Living With Bro Warren Jeffs Brother Lyle
Posted: 06 January 2016 09:18 AM [ Ignore ]
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josephs myth
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I guess he too underestimated both the strength of these women as well as their great desire to speak out.
http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/wtf/inside-polygamist-leader-lyle-jeffs-walled-compound-in-utah/news-story/b431f6a0e5ec9d07fcc279506abc5ea0
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/nieces-polygamist-leader-dish-warren-jeffs-brother-article-1.2486112
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Posted: 06 January 2016 10:11 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Thank you for posting this joseph myths. The video of Warren's reverent sing song sacrament meeting-like voice reminds me of many LDS meetings and conferences. I wish we could place billboards in UT asking members what the hell is wrong with them that they cannot see that these men are exactly like Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith put all of this in motion. Joseph Smith set the example of all this suffering. Those in power of the lies today have these poor people's blood on their hands.
Edited to Add: Something in this story reminded me of how the leaders today operate. It said that many of the FLDS members go hungry or eat cheaper food while the leaders eat expensive food--steak, salmon, deserts. Many mainstream mormons go hungry and without dental, medical care so they can pay required (to be with their family forever) tithes which end up supporting or buying companies, stocks which support the GAs and other church leaders. All the same beast playing the same game.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 06 January 2016 11:15 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Strong Free & Thankful:
Thank you for posting this joseph myths. The video of Warren's reverent sing song sacrament meeting-like voice reminds me of many LDS meetings and conferences. I wish we could place billboards in UT asking members what the hell is wrong with them that they cannot see that these men are exactly like Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith put all of this in motion. Joseph Smith set the example of all this suffering. Those in power of the lies today have these poor people's blood on their hands.
Edited to Add: Something in this story reminded me of how the leaders today operate. It said that many of the FLDS members go hungry or eat cheaper food while the leaders eat expensive food--steak, salmon, deserts. Many mainstream mormons go hungry and without dental, medical care so they can pay required (to be with their family forever) tithes which end up supporting or buying companies, stocks which support the GAs and other church leaders. All the same beast playing the same game.
↑↑↑THIS↑↑↑
I couldn't have said it better myself.
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Posted: 06 January 2016 05:26 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Thank you MU. It really is mind-boggling to me that members--including my family--can keep this out of their heads. Hopefully, someday some of us who care enough will get this message in their faces so they it will be harder for them to ignore.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
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Shortened LDS Meetings
Posted: 29 December 2015 06:15 AM [ Ignore ]
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josephs myth
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More winter dreamy pew time!
http://www.standard.net/Standard-Deviations/2015/11/29/Shorter-Mormon-meeting-Better-than-the-Rapture
(( For this Mormon, shorter Sunday gatherings have been the white whale tormenting my dreams ever since the church consolidated its meetings into a three-hour block in 1980. “If the church can consolidate into a three-hour block,” I reasoned, “what’s to stop them from making it a two-hour block? Or … dare I hope … one hour?”
I’m not particularly proud of this fact, but truthfully? I’m more excited about the possibility of living to see a shorter meeting schedule than the Second Coming. That probably makes me a really bad Mormon. ))
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Posted: 29 December 2015 09:22 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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I got out before the full three-hour block was implemented. If I remember correctly, Young Men's/Women's was still on a separate night, and Relief Society was on a separate day. How does the schedule actually work? Could someone post me a typical three-hour block schedule, listing when all the meetings happen?
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Posted: 29 December 2015 09:41 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Let's say meetings start at 9 AM.
First block, 9:00 to 10:10 - Sacrament meeting
Second block, 10:20 to 11:00 - Sunday school/primary
Third block, 11:10 to 12:00 - Priesthood/Relief Society/primary
There's a 10 minute window between each meeting. Some wards do it opposite (i.e. Sacrament Meeting last) but the handbook says the order above is the only true and living order of Sunday meetings. After all, mormon God is a god of ORDER!
There are still weekly activities for YM/YW, plus cub scouts and "achievement days", which is for girls in the cub scout age bracket, but the girls only meet every other week.
The Relief Society still has occasional mid-week activities, plus their "Super Saturdays" (often in conjunction with other wards or even the whole stake). I think the mid-week activities are just monthly. When I was a kid back in the 1960s, when women generally did not work outside the home, RS was on a weekday morning and had no Sunday meetings.
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Posted: 29 December 2015 09:59 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Matter Unorganized:
Let's say meetings start at 9 AM.
First block, 9:00 to 10:10 - Sacrament meeting
Second block, 10:20 to 11:00 - Sunday school/primary
Third block, 11:10 to 12:00 - Priesthood/Relief Society/primary
There's a 10 minute window between each meeting. Some wards do it opposite (i.e. Sacrament Meeting last) but the handbook says the order above is the only true and living order of Sunday meetings. After all, mormon God is a god of ORDER!
There are still weekly activities for YM/YW, plus cub scouts and "achievement days", which is for girls in the cub scout age bracket, but the girls only meet every other week.
The Relief Society still has occasional mid-week activities, plus their "Super Saturdays" (often in conjunction with other wards or even the whole stake). I think the mid-week activities are just monthly. When I was a kid back in the 1960s, when women generally did not work outside the home, RS was on a weekday morning and had no Sunday meetings.
Thanks! I remember something like Sundays starting with Priesthood meeting, then Sunday School, then Sacrament meeting. I don't think Relief Society had been moved to Sundays, but I'll admit I didn't pay much attention to Relief Society. I don't think Primary had been moved, either.
I can't imagine what happens to people's attention span during that third hour. I'd hate to be teaching the deacons...
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Posted: 29 December 2015 10:15 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
<snip snip snippety snip>
Thanks! I remember something like Sundays starting with Priesthood meeting, then Sunday School, then Sacrament meeting. I don't think Relief Society had been moved to Sundays, but I'll admit I didn't pay much attention to Relief Society. I don't think Primary had been moved, either.
I can't imagine what happens to people's attention span during that third hour. I'd hate to be teaching the deacons...
Been there, done that! No thanks, never again!
And sitting through the whole thing with a pre-nursery toddler... aye caramba! Especially when you've got 2 or 3 wards in the building, and you have one of the later times, and it's right during their nap time... Yeah, truly inspired MY ASS.
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Posted: 29 December 2015 11:15 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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LostInParadise
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
<snip snip snippety snip>
Thanks! I remember something like Sundays starting with Priesthood meeting, then Sunday School, then Sacrament meeting. I don't think Relief Society had been moved to Sundays, but I'll admit I didn't pay much attention to Relief Society. I don't think Primary had been moved, either.
I can't imagine what happens to people's attention span during that third hour. I'd hate to be teaching the deacons...
Been there, done that! No thanks, never again!
And sitting through the whole thing with a pre-nursery toddler... aye caramba! Especially when you've got 2 or 3 wards in the building, and you have one of the later times, and it's right during their nap time... Yeah, truly inspired MY ASS.
I will say this for the deacons (my son is a deacon, so I've been attending his class to avoid elders quorum)...
These boys are impressive. Under the current program, they teach their own class 2-3 times a month. They take turns, and most of the deacons in my ward prepare and teach the lesson without any adult help. When I was that age, it was mostly farting contests, cracking jokes, and heckling the advisor/teacher for an hour.
Not saying I would mind shorter meetings...
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Posted: 29 December 2015 11:33 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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LostInParadise:
Matter Unorganized:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
<snip snip snippety snip>
Thanks! I remember something like Sundays starting with Priesthood meeting, then Sunday School, then Sacrament meeting. I don't think Relief Society had been moved to Sundays, but I'll admit I didn't pay much attention to Relief Society. I don't think Primary had been moved, either.
I can't imagine what happens to people's attention span during that third hour. I'd hate to be teaching the deacons...
Been there, done that! No thanks, never again!
And sitting through the whole thing with a pre-nursery toddler... aye caramba! Especially when you've got 2 or 3 wards in the building, and you have one of the later times, and it's right during their nap time... Yeah, truly inspired MY ASS.
I will say this for the deacons (my son is a deacon, so I've been attending his class to avoid elders quorum)...
These boys are impressive. Under the current program, they teach their own class 2-3 times a month. They take turns, and most of the deacons in my ward prepare and teach the lesson without any adult help. When I was that age, it was mostly farting contests, cracking jokes, and heckling the advisor/teacher for an hour.
Not saying I would mind shorter meetings...
That's pretty impressive. My recollections of deacons quorum are the same as yours.
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Posted: 31 January 2016 08:49 AM [ Ignore ]
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OK, so being buried in temple clothing... this is something I had no idea about until my grandmother passed away. Is this a tradition? Or is it something that is a "have to do"? I just find it odd that it's really not talked about, yet people seem to know about it.
Posted: 31 January 2016 09:01 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Just a cultural attire phenomena dedicated to proving their worthiness to the viewers.
Posted: 31 January 2016 09:44 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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I remember when I went to my grandma's funeral as a teen and said if I died I would ask to be buried in a green dress. My mom told me, "No, you need to be in white". I was always annoyed with that cookie cutter answer. I think the final outfit should match the personality of the deceased!
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Posted: 31 January 2016 02:33 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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It's tradition for those that have taken "their endowments."
Supposedly, the women are decked out, ready for their also-similarly-dressed hubbies to come and pick them up out of the grave...and resurrect them.
Gotta be in the veil/apron/white clothes/undies and slippers...or he won't recognize ya.
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Posted: 01 February 2016 06:26 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Thanks! I wondered if it was just something of a tradition. I guess that's why you don't hear much about it in actual church talks or settings.
Posted: 01 February 2016 09:45 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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FYI it is also recommended that the funeral directors have a current temple recommend that handle the clothes and bodies.
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Posted: 02 February 2016 06:52 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Maybe that's why Larkin Funeral services in SLC, gets to process and handle the 'fossil 15' who come their way?
Posted: 02 February 2016 12:41 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Those whites are going to change color underground
Posted: 02 February 2016 02:24 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Zman:
Those whites are going to change color underground
OMG, I'm crying with laughter!
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Posted: 03 February 2016 01:55 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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The other night, my TBM wife asked what I was doing, and I said "reading about burial clothes on that apostate forum that I like." She smacked me and rolled her eyes (my unbelief is new and sites like this scare the hell out of her -- the fact that she didn't truly get mad is actually a huge step for us).
Anyway, it gave us something fairly neutral to talk about, which was great. Neither of us had given it much thought before. She thought it was fine to follow tradition, even though, like she said, "you're obviously not going to take it with you." I told her I wanted to be buried nude and they could just cover me with a sheet or something, but that I would accept Bermuda shorts and a Hawaiian shirt. That earned me another dead arm. ;)
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Posted: 03 February 2016 08:38 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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And if you're planning on a "cremation" temple clothes aren't part of that. Not supposed to fire-up the things.
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Spanish Speakers we want to connect with you from Dominican Republic
Posted: 01 February 2016 07:16 AM [ Ignore ]
antipsicótica
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Being an exmormon in Dominican Republic is so lonely, we don't have anybody to share our feelings and discoveries, we are practically hiding from our leaders for now, and it is specially more difficult for my husband, whose English is very basic and is not as "technological" as me to join these forums. So, please, if there is any exmormon out there that speaks Spanish (preferably served a mission in Latin America) we want to meet you through Skype next Sunday.
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“Take that money, watch it burn, sink in the river the lessons I’ve learned”.
Posted: 01 February 2016 11:23 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Swearing Elder
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See if there are groups - or if you can start a group - at one of these sites:
http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/groups/group/listByLocation?location=international
http://www.mormonspectrum.org/
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Posted: 01 February 2016 11:34 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
antipsicótica
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Swearing Elder:
See if there are groups - or if you can start a group - at one of these sites:
http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/groups/group/listByLocation?location=international
http://www.mormonspectrum.org/
Thank you, this will be helpful! :)
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“Take that money, watch it burn, sink in the river the lessons I’ve learned”.
Posted: 01 February 2016 11:39 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Swearing Elder
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antipsicótica:
Swearing Elder:
See if there are groups - or if you can start a group - at one of these sites:
http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/groups/group/listByLocation?location=international
http://www.mormonspectrum.org/
Thank you, this will be helpful! :)
De nada. I meant to mention that you can start a chapter here too, of course. I would start one in a couple different places -- you never know where people might be looking.
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/pomopedia/Starting_a_Post_Mormon_Chapter_FAQ/return
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Posted: 01 February 2016 12:12 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
antipsicótica
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Joined 2016-01-20
Swearing Elder:
antipsicótica:
Swearing Elder:
See if there are groups - or if you can start a group - at one of these sites:
http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/groups/group/listByLocation?location=international
http://www.mormonspectrum.org/
Thank you, this will be helpful! :)
De nada. I meant to mention that you can start a chapter here too, of course. I would start one in a couple different places -- you never know where people might be looking.
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/pomopedia/Starting_a_Post_Mormon_Chapter_FAQ/return
That's true! That's a great idea! We could be founding the first exmormon community in DR! Thank you!
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“Take that money, watch it burn, sink in the river the lessons I’ve learned”.
Posted: 01 February 2016 12:14 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
antipsicótica
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Cool, I found Ex- mormones en Español... But is not anonymous, I have to connect with Facebook...
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“Take that money, watch it burn, sink in the river the lessons I’ve learned”.
Posted: 01 February 2016 12:19 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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¡Suerte! Visité a la República Dominicana en 2010 y me encantó la isla y la gente.
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Posted: 01 February 2016 12:26 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
antipsicótica
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Swearing Elder:
¡Suerte! Visité a la República Dominicana en 2010 y me encantó la isla y la gente.
But the group is not anonymous, I have to connect with Facebook. I will start a chapter.
En serio? Viniste a Santiago?
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“Take that money, watch it burn, sink in the river the lessons I’ve learned”.
Posted: 01 February 2016 12:29 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Swearing Elder
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antipsicótica:
Swearing Elder:
¡Suerte! Visité a la República Dominicana en 2010 y me encantó la isla y la gente.
But the group is not anonymous, I have to connect with Facebook. I will start a chapter.
En serio? Viniste a Santiago?
Pasé la mayoría de mi tiempo en Santo Domingo, pero sí, venimos a Santiago. ¡Una ciudad muy linda!
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Posted: 01 February 2016 05:43 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Elder OldDog
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antipsicótica:
Cool, I found Ex- mormones en Español... But is not anonymous, I have to connect with Facebook...
Pues, hagase una pagina bajo un nombre fingida, como Senora Antipscicotica, u otro nombre semejante.
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‹‹ We are NOT Special Okay, what is it you people are hiding from me??? ››
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Bishop Called About Resignation
Posted: 20 February 2010 07:48 PM [ Ignore ]
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happymom
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Ok so the bishop calls this morning and says he has our resignation letter and wants to come talk to us. I explained that there is nothing to talk about, that we want the resignation pushed through and done with. He replied that he understood that but still wants to come talk to us tonight about another option. What other option is there? We are already on there "do not contact" list, so besides that, resignation, or being ex-ed what else is there?
Would someone please tell me what he is talking about? I can just hear it now, "if you read your scriptures and pray for awhile you will change your mind" AHHHH! I want this fncked up religion out of our lives. I explained that my dh was working today so he said he would be calling back tonight to see what time to come over. They are so pushy. So what would all of you do ?
Posted: 20 February 2010 08:06 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Dinah
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They sure are good at pushing their way in the door aren't they? Sheesh!
If you tell him no he will probably just show up unannounced anyway. Personally, I would tell him he's welcome to come over any time he wants to catch up and talk about the neighborhood, but that you do not wish to discuss the church or your resignations. If he attempts to discuss those subjects he will be asked to leave. Then when he brings it up, which he will, you kick his ass out of your house. :P Tough to do if you aren't good at confrontation but Oh So Satisfying!
P.S. Also, I would just LOVE to do something like show up at his house to try to convince him to leave the church. Hound him until he finally has to kick you out of HIS house. I wouldn't do it because I believe in taking the higher moral ground but it would SERIOUSLY be fun! :P
Posted: 20 February 2010 08:06 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
ll
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happymom:
Ok so the bishop calls this morning and says he has our resignation letter and wants to come talk to us. I explained that there is nothing to talk about, that we want the resignation pushed through and done with. He replied that he understood that but still wants to come talk to us tonight about another option. What other option is there? We are already on there "do not contact" list, so besides that, resignation, or being ex-ed what else is there?
Would someone please tell me what he is talking about? I can just hear it now, "if you read your scriptures and pray for awhile you will change your mind" AHHHH! I want this fncked up religion out of our lives. I explained that my dh was working today so he said he would be calling back tonight to see what time to come over. They are so pushy. So what would all of you do ?
The Other Option: ignore historical facts, pay your tithing, and start going to church
Since you have already sent the letter and he has received it, you are no longer a member. There is no need to meet with him. If you feel like discussing it with him go right ahead and invite him over. He doesn't understand your boundaries, so if you don't want him to come over you need to let him know that he is overstepping your boundary. Since you went to the effort of resigning, I am guessing that his meeting with you is a day late and a dollar short.
Horray!! Congratulations on resigning.
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Posted: 20 February 2010 08:08 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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mamapajama
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happymom:
Ok so the bishop calls this morning and says he has our resignation letter and wants to come talk to us. I explained that there is nothing to talk about, that we want the resignation pushed through and done with. He replied that he understood that but still wants to come talk to us tonight about another option. What other option is there? We are already on there "do not contact" list, so besides that, resignation, or being ex-ed what else is there?
Would someone please tell me what he is talking about? I can just hear it now, "if you read your scriptures and pray for awhile you will change your mind" AHHHH! I want this fncked up religion out of our lives. I explained that my dh was working today so he said he would be calling back tonight to see what time to come over. They are so pushy. So what would all of you do ?
First of all, you don't have to meet with him, and if you don't want to, I'd politely decline.
He probably wants to remind you of a "30-day think-about-it" option, which I granted, knowing that I would not change my mind. I just thought it would make me seem less angry and anti, and I wanted to go out that way.
I met with my bishop (I actually had to find out who he was since we hadn't been in years), and was very pleasant, "professional," and remained firm with my request. I did not get into why I wanted out other than a broad, "I simply do not believe, and I need to do this for me." No doctrinal discussion. It's really not worth it.
When 45 days had passed and I still had not heard, I contacted the bishop to find out what was up. They had botched the paperwork, and the 30 days started over , but again, it was all THEIR issue. I was "out" in my mind, and truthfully, I was.
The SP called to apologize for the delay, and acknowledged that they'd never done a resignation before. I thanked him, and eventually got my letter.
I really am a believer in not coming across as angry, for that just validates what they already believe about apostates. That's not to say that I WASN'T angry at times. I testify that this is the place - Postmormon - to vent.
I'd love to hear the outcome. Keep us posted!
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Posted: 20 February 2010 08:09 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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sulki
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I am not sure what this other option is that he was talking about. Be glad that your bishop at least asked permission. Mind just kind of popped in. He really did not want to send in the paperwork without talking to me face to face. It turned out to really be just a plea that there is a place in the church for everyone and then he bore his testimony.
As someone on the NOM board told me - it was really just his last ditch effort to pull me back in. Your bishop in all honestly probably just wants to bear testimony one last time in an effort to try and pull you back in.
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Posted: 20 February 2010 08:11 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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wilson
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You stopped being a member of their church on the day they received your letter. You do NOT need any further contact from the Bishop he is only trying to stall the process. You might want call the membership department:
Member Records Division, LDS Church
50 E North Temple Rm 1372
SLC UT 84150-5310
801-240-2053 - Phone
801-240-1565 - Fax
1-800-453-3860 ext 22053 - Toll Free
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“Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.” Buddha
Posted: 20 February 2010 08:16 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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MishMagnet
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Your instincts are correct, this is a last-ditch effort to keep you in the church. While the Bishop might say, and believe, that this is church policy to meet with you face-to-face in order to verify you are somewhat sane and really do want to resign - it is nothing more than a last attempt at control.
There is no other options. You want out, he doesn't want you out. Either he's going to try and talk you into waiting or he's going to sign the papers. There is no third option.
Having fallen prey myself to this one last talk deal, where I attempted and wanted to be validated by the Bishop - I would remind you that NO REASON is good enough to leave the church. You will not be able to gain his agreement under any circumstances. This is going to be more of a "I want out" 'No you dont" "Yes I do" "No you don't" kind of discussion.
Will he sign the papers if you refuse to meet with him - I don't know. That depends on the Bishop I would assume. If you must meet with him my advice would be to stick to one line and refuse to go further. I no longer believe the church is true. I do not believe Joseph Smith was a prophet. I have no faith that the BOM is true. Period.
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I don’t want to ruin the ending for you ...... but it’s all going to be okay.
Posted: 20 February 2010 08:45 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Grape Nephi
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happymom:
Would someone please tell me what he is talking about? I can just hear it now, "if you read your scriptures and pray for awhile you will change your mind" AHHHH! I want this fncked up religion out of our lives. I explained that my dh was working today so he said he would be calling back tonight to see what time to come over. They are so pushy. So what would all of you do ?
I would explain that this is a free country and that his articles of faith allow people to worship as they please. And that he should f**k off and process the resignation.
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Savor the wine of life and wield the sword of truth. Sum Ergo cogito. Berucha at Asherah. Reverend William Wilson in Arizonahttps://sites.google.com/site/gwylym/home http://gwylym.blogspot.com
Posted: 20 February 2010 08:53 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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John E. Baker, III [was GraciesDaddy]
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happymom:
<snippedascosh>
Would someone please tell me what he is talking about? I can just hear it now, "if you read your scriptures and pray for awhile you will change your mind" AHHHH! I want this fncked up religion out of our lives. I explained that my dh was working today so he said he would be calling back tonight to see what time to come over. They are so pushy. So what would all of you do ?
Go to a movie... a double-feature... preferably, one that lasts until after midnight.
But that's just me.
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The above post is the perspective and experience of a Never-Mo offered in support of the members of PostMormon.org and should be treated as such.
Posted: 20 February 2010 09:15 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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victim
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happymom:
Ok so the bishop calls this morning and says he has our resignation letter and wants to come talk to us. I explained that there is nothing to talk about, that we want the resignation pushed through and done with. He replied that he understood that but still wants to come talk to us tonight about another option. What other option is there? We are already on there "do not contact" list, so besides that, resignation, or being ex-ed what else is there?
Would someone please tell me what he is talking about? I can just hear it now, "if you read your scriptures and pray for awhile you will change your mind" AHHHH! I want this fncked up religion out of our lives. I explained that my dh was working today so he said he would be calling back tonight to see what time to come over. They are so pushy. So what would all of you do ?
Tell him he is welcome to come over/visit if he brings your resignation documents and his fillers with him, so you can witness his signature in person! If his visit will speed up the process - you're all for it! Explain that you just can't get out fast enough! He may decide to finalize his portion of your resignation process in his office! victim
Posted: 20 February 2010 10:11 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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Lilith
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Options for church. Be a member or Not be a member. I can't find an "in between", I would have personally asked him straight forward WTH a 3rd option would be over the phone. I bet he wouldn't have been able to answer it. I mean dont' "they" say "You are either with us or against us"?! Didn't "they" draw the black and white line?!
.
When he calls again I would just ask him over the phone what he believes this "3rd option" is and if he insists upon meeting in person to explain, I'd boldly decline and let him know you only see 2 options of being a member or not being a member and you have clearly chosen to NOT be members anymore and to please push your resignation letter through without delay and if needs be threaten legal action if he continues to insist upon a "visit".
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A Mormon?! But I’m from Earth! - Homer Simpson..
I’m sorry, but if I agreed with you, we’d both be wrong! As it is I refuse to have a ‘Battle Of Wits’ with an unarmed person!
Posted: 20 February 2010 10:45 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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Dogger Dog
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If you do talk to him, please post the gist of the conversation here. It will help those who stop by the board seeking resignation whose bishops try to pull the same shenanigans.
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“I will seriously consider believing the Book of Mormon is an ancient text if someone actually discovers, in the Americas, an authentically ancient and decipherable Paleo-Hebrew/Egyptian hybrid text, written upon metal, which includes the translational errors contained exclusively in the King James Version of the Sermon on the Mount. Until then, no can do. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”
~Dogger Dog
Posted: 20 February 2010 10:49 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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Tessa
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Third option, the church turns you into a non-attending Zombie Jack-Mormon...neither in nor out....neither dead nor alive. But still on the books (and he doesn't want to mess up his pretty books....of names.)
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 20 February 2010 11:01 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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happymom
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Ok so after reading all your posts and talking with my dh I decided enough is enough and called him back. He didn't answer so I left him a message saying the following. " Hi, This is happymom, I spoke with my dh and we do not want a visit tonight or at anytime in the future. We would like our resignation pushed through and the waiting period waved." So we will see what his response is, I really wished he had actually answered instead of leaving a message. I just didn't want to call and hang up so I figured a message was better then nothing. I will post if he calls back or what happens.
Posted: 20 February 2010 11:18 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
Truman
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Hello, I've just registered here. I served as bishop for a very long time and I processed a few resignations. We were required to follow handbook rules and some members wanting out didn't like that. I had some difficulty processing the requests out of concern for the individuals but it always made me wonder why they wanted out - now I know. We were required to try to changer your mind! I've read posts here for about 2 years and I have great admiration for many of you as you have helped me understand many things!
Posted: 21 February 2010 12:46 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
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ClearThoughts
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Truman:
Hello, I've just registered here. I served as bishop for a very long time and I processed a few resignations. We were required to follow handbook rules and some members wanting out didn't like that. I had some difficulty processing the requests out of concern for the individuals but it always made me wonder why they wanted out - now I know. We were required to try to changer your mind! I've read posts here for about 2 years and I have great admiration for many of you as you have helped me understand many things!
You already sound very intriguing Truman. I hope you share some stories with us.
Welcome to Postmo Truman.
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One must live, not just exist. - French proverb
Posted: 21 February 2010 01:26 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
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John E. Baker, III [was GraciesDaddy]
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Truman:
Hello, I've just registered here. I served as bishop for a very long time and I processed a few resignations. We were required to follow handbook rules and some members wanting out didn't like that. I had some difficulty processing the requests out of concern for the individuals but it always made me wonder why they wanted out - now I know. We were required to try to changer your mind! I've read posts here for about 2 years and I have great admiration for many of you as you have helped me understand many things!
Welcome, TRUMAN!!
I'm reminded of the phrase:
"How Will It End?"
— "The Truman Show"
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The above post is the perspective and experience of a Never-Mo offered in support of the members of PostMormon.org and should be treated as such.
Posted: 21 February 2010 01:45 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 17 ]
Truman
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Joined 2010-02-20
A few movies have had a major impact on my life in the past few years - The Truman Show, Castaway, The Bourne series to name a few. I was watching bourne Identity 2 years ago. I was quite angry about my years of service and as I was listening to the song during the credits at the end and a line hit me "I would stand in line for this?" ??? I've enjoyed your posts for some time, thanks.
Posted: 21 February 2010 02:18 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 18 ]
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mamapajama
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Joined 2007-05-20
When I met with my bishop, he did ask if I would consider just being inactive like my husband. For me, I couldn't. I guess that was an "option," but not one for me.
I was a convert, and felt like I needed to "undo" a mistake, a decision based on information that was deceptive. I had no pioneer heritage; I was a first generation Mormon in my family.
Knowing how important numbers are to the Church, I wanted to join forces in making a statement that all is not well in Paradise.
Most importantly, I could not sustain the leadership. Not.at.all.
When the bishop visited, I was reminded that I would no longer be able to receive the gift of the holy ghost, and that sealings would be cancelled. For me, those warnings only "sealed the deal" for me.
Reducing something that I had viewed as being more esoteric down to membership status was not only simplistic, it was totally absurd to me.
With my resignation, I also became a first generation Mormon apostate.
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In the end no one will sell you what you need,
You can’t buy it off the shelf,
You got to grow it from the seed ~Chris Smither
Posted: 21 February 2010 03:23 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 19 ]
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DrW
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Joined 2009-01-12
TRUMAN,
Welcome to Post-mo.
Thanks for sharing your (very) relevant experience with regard to the OP.
We would certainly like to hear more from you.
If you have been reading here for some time (2 years?) without posting, I could imagine that you might have a lot to say.
Posted: 21 February 2010 03:39 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 20 ]
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TriteMoniker
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It's strange to me that he is pushing it so hard.
It's strange to me that other people have published line-crossing actions.
When I sent my letter my bishop was very... well... gracious.
He explained what resignation would mean and, should I want to re-join, I'd have to repent for anything I'd have done and go through the discussions and be re-baptized as any other convert. He told me he'd already contacted anyone 'assigned' to me or my family and they would respect my wishes of no contact with the exception of any random tracting done by local missionaries. He even thanked me for the respect I showed him while a member and in my resignation letter.
If I were pushed I'd remind the person of the 13 AOF and of my own understanding of choice and accountability, thank them for their concern and then ignore any future contact.
Posted: 21 February 2010 03:49 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 21 ]
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Bringitdown
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Joined 2009-08-15
I'd ask him if he got your letter.
Then I'd ask him if he knows how to read.
Then I'd ask him if he understand what you wrote in it.
Then I'd tell him you meant it, you don't care about what he has to say, and hang up the phone.
Posted: 21 February 2010 03:53 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 22 ]
martyrdumb
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Print him out a copy of those conference talks on being hot or cold and not lukewarm.
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“When a person is down in the world, an ounce of help is better than a pound of preaching.”
Robert Bulwer-Lytton
Posted: 21 February 2010 03:54 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 23 ]
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happymom
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Joined 2009-07-30
He called back and said that if we did not want to have him over he would not come over. I assured him that we did not want him coming over, that we wanted the resignation done and the waiting period waved. He replied that the paper or whatever it is that they send in on their end would be sent to salt lake this week. Hopefully he does what he said he would. Funny thing is I thought he would ask why we were doing this and he never did.
Posted: 21 February 2010 03:57 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 24 ]
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apostate
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happymom:
Ok so the bishop calls this morning and says he has our resignation letter and wants to come talk to us. I explained that there is nothing to talk about, that we want the resignation pushed through and done with. He replied that he understood that but still wants to come talk to us tonight about another option. What other option is there? We are already on there "do not contact" list, so besides that, resignation, or being ex-ed what else is there?
Would someone please tell me what he is talking about? I can just hear it now, "if you read your scriptures and pray for awhile you will change your mind" AHHHH! I want this fncked up religion out of our lives. I explained that my dh was working today so he said he would be calling back tonight to see what time to come over. They are so pushy. So what would all of you do ?
I would be curious to know what this "other option" is. My curiousity often compels me to do things against my better judgment. Still, I don't see any reason why the bishop can't tell you what this "other option" is over the phone. No reason to have a sit down visit. No reason at all. And if this "other option" involves having more faith, putting anything on the proverbial shelf, fasting an praying, or reading any apologetic literature, you can swiftly end the conversation without having to figure out a way to get him to leave your home.
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Posted: 21 February 2010 04:36 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 25 ]
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Tom Donofrio
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He would rather that you lay low and stay one the books. He does not want to lose another one and face the music when he meets with the Stake President.
You gotta stay focused here. Tell the Bishop there is no other option. Don't let him schmooze you.
Posted: 21 February 2010 04:44 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 26 ]
CadillacCTS2009
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After you have written the letter and have asked to be on the "do not contact list" that should be the end of the story.
Your Bishop apparently feels he is the "one" who must "salvage" your "salvation". He needs to understand that he is infringing upon your right to not be involved with the LDS Church anymore.
I suppose if he comes over, you could give him the address of this Website and then he would see that you just can't "save" everyone. And there's a whole almost 5,000 of us who don't need saving from former Bishops.
Posted: 21 February 2010 04:48 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 27 ]
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PJ
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Joined 2009-06-13
The fact is that once you have written, signed, dated and then posted your resignation you have resigned. From TSCC's point of view, technically speaking, you may still be a member but you are not. A written, signed and dated resignation is just that a resignation, it is effective as of the date you specify in the document. The rest in TSCC's hands are their processes and really have no bearing whatsoever on the fact that you have resigned. It's like resigning from your job, you are no longer an employee of that company once you've done so. There's no need to meet with anybody. And if somebody refers to you as a member or asks if you are, well, in all good conscience you can honestly say that you're not. A resignation is a resignation. Full stop.
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If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people. - Dr. Gregory House.
There’s a time for diplomacy, a time for plainness and then there’s a time to just let it rip.
- Peter Lindberg Jensen.
The most rewarding thing in life is to live authentically.
- Peter Lindberg Jensen.
There’s nothing like looking through the door of reality and seeing what’s there. How can this not be more interesting than looking through the door of ignorance and seeing nothing?
- Peter Lindberg Jensen.
Posted: 21 February 2010 04:51 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 28 ]
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Tessa
Long Timer
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Wonder if they have Stake/Ward meetings to count up all those who've resigned in their district?? Interesting the reaction of the church authorities....if they "blame" the underlings for not being caring enough of the resigners...
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 21 February 2010 05:04 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 29 ]
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PJ
Long Timer
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Joined 2009-06-13
mamapajama:
When I met with my bishop, he did ask if I would consider just being inactive like my husband. For me, I couldn't. I guess that was an "option," but not one for me.
I was a convert, and felt like I needed to "undo" a mistake, a decision based on information that was deceptive. I had no pioneer heritage; I was a first generation Mormon in my family.
Knowing how important numbers are to the Church, I wanted to join forces in making a statement that all is not well in Paradise.
Most importantly, I could not sustain the leadership. Not.at.all.
When the bishop visited, I was reminded that I would no longer be able to receive the gift of the holy ghost, and that sealings would be cancelled. For me, those warnings only "sealed the deal" for me.
Reducing something that I had viewed as being more esoteric down to membership status was not only simplistic, it was totally absurd to me.
With my resignation, I also became a first generation Mormon apostate.
This is so typical of the Mormon church. They think they own the Holy Ghost and Sealings.
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If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people. - Dr. Gregory House.
There’s a time for diplomacy, a time for plainness and then there’s a time to just let it rip.
- Peter Lindberg Jensen.
The most rewarding thing in life is to live authentically.
- Peter Lindberg Jensen.
There’s nothing like looking through the door of reality and seeing what’s there. How can this not be more interesting than looking through the door of ignorance and seeing nothing?
- Peter Lindberg Jensen.
Posted: 21 February 2010 05:41 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 30 ]
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Don K
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When the bishop visited, I was reminded that I would no longer be able to receive the gift of the holy ghost, and that sealings would be cancelled.
Oh, you have just got to tell him that it is the Holy Ghost who led you to the infromation that told you the Church was all a fraud. It was the Holy Ghost that is still telling you that there is no such things as the priesthood and that the Bishop is himself leading a fraud. It's the Holy Ghost who is also telling you that if the Bishop were to really reflect on the evidence, and look at ALL the evidence that he too would see that it's all a fraud. He may even know it deep down in his heart but is afraid to admit it.
Hit him up with that and see what he says. We can have a Holy Ghost smack down. Your ghost vs. his ghost.
DK
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“If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of Google.”
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Posted: 14 January 2016 04:57 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 31 ]
Doggonit
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Don K:
When the bishop visited, I was reminded that I would no longer be able to receive the gift of the holy ghost, and that sealings would be cancelled.
Oh, you have just got to tell him that it is the Holy Ghost who led you to the infromation that told you the Church was all a fraud. It was the Holy Ghost that is still telling you that there is no such things as the priesthood and that the Bishop is himself leading a fraud. It's the Holy Ghost who is also telling you that if the Bishop were to really reflect on the evidence, and look at ALL the evidence that he too would see that it's all a fraud. He may even know it deep down in his heart but is afraid to admit it.
Hit him up with that and see what he says. We can have a Holy Ghost smack down. Your ghost vs. his ghost.
DK
I just love the way fear mongering has stopped working for Mormonism.
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Posted: 14 January 2016 08:20 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 32 ]
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victim
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Joined 2009-03-27
happymom:
Ok so the bishop calls this morning and says he has our resignation letter and wants to come talk to us. I explained that there is nothing to talk about, that we want the resignation pushed through and done with. He replied that he understood that but still wants to come talk to us tonight about another option. What other option is there? We are already on there "do not contact" list, so besides that, resignation, or being ex-ed what else is there?
Would someone please tell me what he is talking about? I can just hear it now, "if you read your scriptures and pray for awhile you will change your mind" AHHHH! I want this fncked up religion out of our lives. I explained that my dh was working today so he said he would be calling back tonight to see what time to come over. They are so pushy. So what would all of you do ?
If it was me, I'd tell this local, cult operative to buzz off - we have already made our decision - you have our resignation letter in front of you - right!? If he attempts to invade our privacy, we can always threaten him with a call to the police - now bishop, it's past time for you to get on with your internal paper work! We do expect to promptly receive a letter from the so-called church confirming that we are no longer members/have been dropped from the roles! Remember, we're already out - this request for a meeting is nothing more than a desperate, last ditch effort to stop us! Once our resignation letter is received by the church - it's over - we are legally out unless we play the bishop's game! It's doubtful that he will test you/likely that you won't hear anymore from him!
After years of control over us, it's sometimes difficult to pointedly set them straight! Control freaks don't like taking no for an answer - he'll have to get use to his irrelevant, diminished status in our lives! If we want to cut ties with this well documented, fraudulent, cult religion, it is necessary to assume control of our lives! Always remember this simple fact - the mormon cult has no power/ authority over our decision making process unless we give it to them! Good luck! victim
Posted: 14 January 2016 09:36 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 33 ]
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Tessa
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Joined 2008-08-12
Quietly, you stopped being a member the minute you stopped paying tithings/offerings...only they won't admit it.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 14 January 2016 09:45 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 34 ]
Free2Live
Long Timer
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Joined 2012-09-01
You just won the lds lottery! That dude called a bishop wants to stop by and personally return all the donations you forked out and wish you well. That is the only reason contact should be made according to my terms of resignation. I want my money back!
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.
Posted: 14 January 2016 06:56 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 35 ]
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dicksolomon
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My spouse sent in the form letter that said that we didn't want to be contacted and that we wanted our resignations processed immediately. Our bishop sent back a letter that said that he would process the resignations, but that he assumed because we wanted them processed immediately that we were involved in some pretty grievous sin and trying to avoid a disciplinary council. Stay classy, bishop. Stay classy.
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“Where would we be without the agitators of the world attaching the electrodes of knowledge to the nipples of ignorance?” —Dick Solomon in “Third Rock From The Sun”
Posted: 14 January 2016 07:08 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 36 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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FreeLive:
You just won the lds lottery! That dude called a bishop wants to stop by and personally return all the donations you forked out and wish you well. That is the only reason contact should be made according to my terms of resignation. I want my money back!
I want my money back too! They took it from me by fraud. I hope enough of us PostMormons demand our money back that our demands will be heard around the world. Hopefully someday justice will prevail and they will be forced to give our money back. It is the right thing and it is what should happen.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 15 January 2016 06:28 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 37 ]
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John E. Baker, III [was GraciesDaddy]
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Uh... Why, exactly, did this nearly-five year-old thread get bumped? Bishes are still doing this crap, they will continue to do this crap and rehashing a situation that's probably long-ago resolved itself seems kinda... Counterproductive? Jus' askin'.
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The above post is the perspective and experience of a Never-Mo offered in support of the members of PostMormon.org and should be treated as such.
Posted: 16 January 2016 02:54 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 38 ]
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Tessa
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The thing got bumped, why? Because it's still relevant. Same techniques...different year. The church crawls with deception and deceit.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 16 January 2016 10:14 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 39 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
Long Timer
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Joined 2010-05-22
Tessa:
The thing got bumped, why? Because it's still relevant. Same techniques...different year. The church crawls with deception and deceit.
A chillingly accurate description Tessa!
A slideshow about celebrities who were and are in cults caught my eye. Some did not state the name of the cult, and I had to wonder if it might be LDS, Inc. A lot of them, with different names, could have been the mormon church--same game--same lies--same deception. Here is an example from one slide:
Like Leah Remini and many other celebrities, G.I. Jane actor Jason Beghe has renounced Scientology. After being a part of the Church for 13 years, Beghe left in 2007 and released a video supporting the claims that Scientology is indeed a cult.
“Scientology is destructive and a rip-off,” the actor said in the video. “It’s very, very dangerous for your spiritual, psychological, mental, emotional health and evolution. I think it stunts your evolution. If Scientology is real, then something’s f**ked up.”
I add, "If momonism is real, then something's really messed up--and I want not part of it.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
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Mormon Problems In Oregon (Bundy / Hammond’s)
Posted: 04 January 2016 03:22 AM [ Ignore ]
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josephs myth
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Just give me one day that the Mormon church (small C) can maybe try and stay out of the headlines?
Geeesh!
http://www.opb.org/news/article/explainer-the-bundy-militias-particular-brand-of-mormonism/
http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimdalrympleii/heres-what-you-need-to-understand-about-mormon-history-if-yo
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
Posted: 04 January 2016 08:13 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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I like some of the names they've come up with for these guys:
Y'All Quaeda
Yeehawdists
Yokel Harem
Vanilla ISIS
Cow Tipping Terrorists
Fail Quaeda
Saturday Night Treason
I think I like Vanilla ISIS best, but I'm told Y'All Quaeda follows a strict interpretation of Shania law...
ETA: More names!
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Posted: 04 January 2016 09:11 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Both of the articles JM linked to are good analyses of the LDS influence on the events near Burns. I wonder if Salt Lake will show some leadership or will keep a low profile. Speaking out may save some lives.
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
Phillip K. Dick
Posted: 04 January 2016 09:15 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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son of perdition
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The Oregon protest isn''t a Mormon movement. Here is the full story. The federal government is unfarly forcing ranchers off of their land. It's a land grab.
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/
Posted: 04 January 2016 09:34 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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son of perdition:
The Oregon protest isn''t a Mormon movement. Here is the full story. The federal government is unfarly forcing ranchers off of their land. It's a land grab.
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/
The wildlife refuge that has been seized was established over 100 years ago by Teddy Roosevelt. It was orignally formed from unclaimed government land and was added to through purchase of additional land by the federal government. http://www.fws.gov/refuge/Malheur/
The articles don't claim this is a mormon movement. But the Bundys are leaders, and they are clearly influenced by mormonism. I think it's fair to say that one cannot understand the actions of this group without understanding something of mormon history and scripture.
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
Phillip K. Dick
Posted: 04 January 2016 09:42 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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josephs myth
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
son of perdition:
The Oregon protest isn''t a Mormon movement. Here is the full story. The federal government is unfarly forcing ranchers off of their land. It's a land grab.
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution
The wildlife refuge that has been seized was established over 100 years ago by Teddy Roosevelt. It was orignally formed from unclaimed government land and was added to through purchase of additional land by the federal government.
http://www.fws.gov/refuge/Malheur/
The articles don't claim this is a mormon movement. But the Bundys are leaders, and they are clearly influenced by mormonism. I think it's fair to say that one cannot understand the actions of this group without understanding something of mormon history and scripture.
This stuff reads like a great novel, too good to have the links unfixed.
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution
(fwiw: no spaces before or after the links posted)
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-Nothing beats a failure like a try
_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
Posted: 04 January 2016 09:47 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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josephs myth:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
son of perdition:
The Oregon protest isn''t a Mormon movement. Here is the full story. The federal government is unfarly forcing ranchers off of their land. It's a land grab.
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution
The wildlife refuge that has been seized was established over 100 years ago by Teddy Roosevelt. It was orignally formed from unclaimed government land and was added to through purchase of additional land by the federal government.
http://www.fws.gov/refuge/Malheur/
The articles don't claim this is a mormon movement. But the Bundys are leaders, and they are clearly influenced by mormonism. I think it's fair to say that one cannot understand the actions of this group without understanding something of mormon history and scripture.
This stuff reads like a great novel, too good to have the links unfixed.
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution
(fwiw: no spaces before or after the links posted)
Didn't notice the bad link. It's fixed now.
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
Phillip K. Dick
Posted: 04 January 2016 10:03 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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son of perdition
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
josephs myth:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
son of perdition:
The Oregon protest isn''t a Mormon movement. Here is the full story. The federal government is unfarly forcing ranchers off of their land. It's a land grab.
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution
The wildlife refuge that has been seized was established over 100 years ago by Teddy Roosevelt. It was orignally formed from unclaimed government land and was added to through purchase of additional land by the federal government.
http://www.fws.gov/refuge/Malheur/
The articles don't claim this is a mormon movement. But the Bundys are leaders, and they are clearly influenced by mormonism. I think it's fair to say that one cannot understand the actions of this group without understanding something of mormon history and scripture.
This stuff reads like a great novel, too good to have the links unfixed.
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution
(fwiw: no spaces before or after the links posted)
Didn't notice the bad link. It's fixed now.
The greater issue here isn't the grazing of livestock on public land or the refuge. The federal government is forcing these ranchers to sell their property to them. The Hamonds do not want to be seen as connected to these protestors like the Bundys. I'm not sure how mormon history has anything to do with Harney county.
Posted: 04 January 2016 10:15 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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son of perdition:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
josephs myth:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
son of perdition:
The Oregon protest isn''t a Mormon movement. Here is the full story. The federal government is unfarly forcing ranchers off of their land. It's a land grab.
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution
The wildlife refuge that has been seized was established over 100 years ago by Teddy Roosevelt. It was orignally formed from unclaimed government land and was added to through purchase of additional land by the federal government.
http://www.fws.gov/refuge/Malheur/
The articles don't claim this is a mormon movement. But the Bundys are leaders, and they are clearly influenced by mormonism. I think it's fair to say that one cannot understand the actions of this group without understanding something of mormon history and scripture.
This stuff reads like a great novel, too good to have the links unfixed.
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution
(fwiw: no spaces before or after the links posted)
Didn't notice the bad link. It's fixed now.
The greater issue here isn't the grazing of livestock on public land or the refuge. The federal government is forcing these ranchers to sell their property to them. The Hamonds do not want to be seen as connected to these protestors like the Bundys. I'm not sure how mormon history has anything to do with Harney county.
I'm talking specifically about the group that has seized the wildlife refuge headquarters, not the Hammons or their supporters. LDS history is full of armed conflict with government. The Bundys and others in that group compare themselves to Captain Moroni and the federal government to the Gadianton Robbers. Did you read the articles that JM linked?
In my neck of the woods, anarchists piggy back on peaceful protests to destroy property. (See the WTO protests in Seattle) Every time I covered any sort of protest during my time writing for my law school paper, the hardcore Marxists showed up to piggy back on whatever the protest was about. It looks to me like the Bundy group piggy backed on a peaceful protey mostly locals to carry out their own agenda -- picking a gunfight with the feds. I think that agenda has quite a bit to do with mormon history and scripture. You're free to disagree.
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
Phillip K. Dick
Posted: 04 January 2016 10:46 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
Felix
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I tend to support the ranchers and dissidents who oppose federal over reach. I think their are much more incidents of federal over reach and corruption than there are of organized protest against it.
The fact that the Bundies are Mormons has little to do with this issue. I don't agree with their religion any more than anyone else here but I do agree with local people (the people who live in the state) having the right to determine how their own land will be used.
Also, the founders would be characterized as anarchists by much of todays media pundants.
I believe that much of the federally controlled land in the western states should be relinquished to the states.
Posted: 04 January 2016 10:56 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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son of perdition
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
son of perdition:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
josephs myth:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
son of perdition:
The Oregon protest isn''t a Mormon movement. Here is the full story. The federal government is unfarly forcing ranchers off of their land. It's a land grab.
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution
The wildlife refuge that has been seized was established over 100 years ago by Teddy Roosevelt. It was orignally formed from unclaimed government land and was added to through purchase of additional land by the federal government.
http://www.fws.gov/refuge/Malheur/
The articles don't claim this is a mormon movement. But the Bundys are leaders, and they are clearly influenced by mormonism. I think it's fair to say that one cannot understand the actions of this group without understanding something of mormon history and scripture.
This stuff reads like a great novel, too good to have the links unfixed.
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution
(fwiw: no spaces before or after the links posted)
Didn't notice the bad link. It's fixed now.
The greater issue here isn't the grazing of livestock on public land or the refuge. The federal government is forcing these ranchers to sell their property to them. The Hamonds do not want to be seen as connected to these protestors like the Bundys. I'm not sure how mormon history has anything to do with Harney county.
I'm talking specifically about the group that has seized the wildlife refuge headquarters, not the Hammons or their supporters. LDS history is full of armed conflict with government. The Bundys and others in that group compare themselves to Captain Moroni and the federal government to the Gadianton Robbers. Did you read the articles that JM linked?
In my neck of the woods, anarchists piggy back on peaceful protests to destroy property. (See the WTO protests in Seattle) Every time I covered any sort of protest during my time writing for my law school paper, the hardcore Marxists showed up to piggy back on whatever the protest was about. It looks to me like the Bundy group piggy backed on a peaceful protey mostly locals to carry out their own agenda -- picking a gunfight with the feds. I think that agenda has quite a bit to do with mormon history and scripture. You're free to disagree.
I agree with you that Mormon histroy plays a part here in the protest. What bothers me is that no one is reporting what the federal goverment has done in Harney county. The feds are over riding state laws. A big issue here is, does the state have any rights againsts the federal goverment. The Feds are getting rid of the cowboy and their way of life like they did the Native Americans. It looks like the Feds can just take your private ranch if they so desire.
Posted: 04 January 2016 12:32 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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josephs myth
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Oh noooo... Now Mormonism is really really in it all!
http://www.sltrib.com/news/lds/3377742-155/mormon-authorities-strongly-condemn-oregon-militia
As if the Mormons need a new distraction for all of the intense scrutinizing that this LDS church (small C) might already be facing.
http://m.nydailynews.com/news/national/oregon-militia-family-cites-mormonism-armed-conflicts-article-1.2484657
Signature
-Nothing beats a failure like a try
_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
Posted: 04 January 2016 12:56 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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son of perdition:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
son of perdition:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
josephs myth:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
son of perdition:
The Oregon protest isn''t a Mormon movement. Here is the full story. The federal government is unfarly forcing ranchers off of their land. It's a land grab.
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution
The wildlife refuge that has been seized was established over 100 years ago by Teddy Roosevelt. It was orignally formed from unclaimed government land and was added to through purchase of additional land by the federal government.
http://www.fws.gov/refuge/Malheur/
The articles don't claim this is a mormon movement. But the Bundys are leaders, and they are clearly influenced by mormonism. I think it's fair to say that one cannot understand the actions of this group without understanding something of mormon history and scripture.
This stuff reads like a great novel, too good to have the links unfixed.
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution
(fwiw: no spaces before or after the links posted)
Didn't notice the bad link. It's fixed now.
The greater issue here isn't the grazing of livestock on public land or the refuge. The federal government is forcing these ranchers to sell their property to them. The Hamonds do not want to be seen as connected to these protestors like the Bundys. I'm not sure how mormon history has anything to do with Harney county.
I'm talking specifically about the group that has seized the wildlife refuge headquarters, not the Hammons or their supporters. LDS history is full of armed conflict with government. The Bundys and others in that group compare themselves to Captain Moroni and the federal government to the Gadianton Robbers. Did you read the articles that JM linked?
In my neck of the woods, anarchists piggy back on peaceful protests to destroy property. (See the WTO protests in Seattle) Every time I covered any sort of protest during my time writing for my law school paper, the hardcore Marxists showed up to piggy back on whatever the protest was about. It looks to me like the Bundy group piggy backed on a peaceful protey mostly locals to carry out their own agenda -- picking a gunfight with the feds. I think that agenda has quite a bit to do with mormon history and scripture. You're free to disagree.
I agree with you that Mormon histroy plays a part here in the protest. What bothers me is that no one is reporting what the federal goverment has done in Harney county. The feds are over riding state laws. A big issue here is, does the state have any rights againsts the federal goverment. The Feds are getting rid of the cowboy and their way of life like they did the Native Americans. It looks like the Feds can just take your private ranch if they so desire.
I'm personally not tallking about the issues you mention here because I don't see a mormon angle to them.
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
Phillip K. Dick
Posted: 04 January 2016 01:08 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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Born Free
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Felix:
I tend to support the ranchers and dissidents who oppose federal over reach. I think their are much more incidents of federal over reach and corruption than there are of organized protest against it.
The fact that the Bundies are Mormons has little to do with this issue. I don't agree with their religion any more than anyone else here but I do agree with local people (the people who live in the state) having the right to determine how their own land will be used.
Also, the founders would be characterized as anarchists by much of todays media pundants.
I believe that much of the federally controlled land in the western states should be relinquished to the states.
Regardless of localised issues, I believe it is naive to hold the view that Mormon minds are blanks when they aapproch confrontation with government.
Human minds LOVE narratives, and in situations of unrest, narratives provide powerful reference beacons, REGARDLESS whether the fit is good or poor. Flaws in human thinking make us good at seeing rich parallels between the current tension and the favoured narrative, while we conveniently dismiss inconsistencies and even counterpoints.
In the linked articles, reference to the way Mormons maintain the belief that the American Constitution is all about them, in classic narcissistic Mormon fashion, is a case in point.
Daryl
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‘Our life is the creation of our minds, and we do much of that creating in metaphor…. With the wrong metaphor we are deluded; with no metaphor we are blind. ’ Jonathan Haidt
‘and I am responsible for the metaphors that populate my mind.’ Daryl
Posted: 04 January 2016 01:08 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
Curious NeverMo
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son of perdition:
::snipped:: The federal government is unfarly forcing ranchers off of their land. It's a land grab.
Oregon, like the rest of the West Coast is in the grips of an extremely severe drought. Here's a little pic of Lake Shasta, a major water source, just south of the OR/CA border. It's typical of Western reservoirs that supply water for, among other things, fighting fires.
The precipitating event that the Bundys cite as their lame excuse is arson charges brought against the Hammond family. The Hammonds set fire to land. Excactly which land isn't entirely clear. The Hammonds claim they set fire to their own land and the fire burned onto federal land. The federal agents claim that they set fire to federal land in an effort to hide evidence of their poaching deer from the protected reserve.
I didn't see any reference to that in the Conservative Treehouse article.
In any case, setting uncontrolled fires -- and it was uncontrolled by the Hammon's own claim that it burned beyond their property -- is a reckless act that puts at risk OR timber land and, potentially a much larger area of the West, as well as putting the lives of fire fighters at risk.
Western wildfires in the past few years have been multi-state affairs and have cost American taxpayers hundreds of millions in fire fighting efforts. They have taken weeks and months to bring into control. They have eliminated forrests that are the lifeblood of economies in OR and other Western states. They have cost lumbering jobs of non-ranchers (concerned about them too, I hope). And they are using up the very stressed water resources that people up and down the Western states need to sustain normal lives and farmers need to supply food for half the nation.
I call bullsh*t. These occupiers are not principles to the Hammonds' dispute with the federal wildlife or land management agents and many -- including the Bundy brothers who started this and incited for others to join them -- came from outside OR to seize property that belongs to the citizens of the US and NOT some bloodless "government" they set up as a strawman.
The occupiers are stealing facilities and services from the American people for the benefit of some who would be welfare queens like Cliven Bundy who has already been stiffing the American taxpayers for years.
Posted: 04 January 2016 01:11 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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josephs myth:
Oh noooo... Now Mormonism is really really in it all!
http://www.sltrib.com/news/lds/3377742-155/mormon-authorities-strongly-condemn-oregon-militia
As if the Mormons need a new distraction for all of the intense scrutinizing that this LDS church (small C) might already be facing.
http://m.nydailynews.com/news/national/oregon-militia-family-cites-mormonism-armed-conflicts-article-1.2484657
Here's the statement:
While the disagreement occurring in Oregon about the use of federal lands is not a Church matter, Church leaders strongly condemn the armed seizure of the facility and are deeply troubled by the reports that those who have seized the facility suggest that they are doing so based on scriptural principles. This armed occupation can in no way be justified on a scriptural basis. We are privileged to live in a nation where conflicts with government or private groups can — and should — be settled using peaceful means, according to the laws of the land.
I'm glad the leaders spoke out strongly. Had they stayed silent, their silence would almost certainly have been interpreted as tacit approval by the Bundys and others. It will be interesting to see the reactions of the LDS among the insurrectionists. Will they listen to their prophets, seers and revelators, or will we see the birth of yet another branch of the tree of mormonism?
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
Phillip K. Dick
Posted: 04 January 2016 01:17 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Runtu wrote a good blog post on this issue.
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
Phillip K. Dick
Posted: 04 January 2016 05:23 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 17 ]
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son of perdition
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
son of perdition:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
son of perdition:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
josephs myth:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
son of perdition:
The Oregon protest isn''t a Mormon movement. Here is the full story. The federal government is unfarly forcing ranchers off of their land. It's a land grab.
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution
The wildlife refuge that has been seized was established over 100 years ago by Teddy Roosevelt. It was orignally formed from unclaimed government land and was added to through purchase of additional land by the federal government.
http://www.fws.gov/refuge/Malheur/
The articles don't claim this is a mormon movement. But the Bundys are leaders, and they are clearly influenced by mormonism. I think it's fair to say that one cannot understand the actions of this group without understanding something of mormon history and scripture.
This stuff reads like a great novel, too good to have the links unfixed.
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution
(fwiw: no spaces before or after the links posted)
Didn't notice the bad link. It's fixed now.
The greater issue here isn't the grazing of livestock on public land or the refuge. The federal government is forcing these ranchers to sell their property to them. The Hamonds do not want to be seen as connected to these protestors like the Bundys. I'm not sure how mormon history has anything to do with Harney county.
I'm talking specifically about the group that has seized the wildlife refuge headquarters, not the Hammons or their supporters. LDS history is full of armed conflict with government. The Bundys and others in that group compare themselves to Captain Moroni and the federal government to the Gadianton Robbers. Did you read the articles that JM linked?
In my neck of the woods, anarchists piggy back on peaceful protests to destroy property. (See the WTO protests in Seattle) Every time I covered any sort of protest during my time writing for my law school paper, the hardcore Marxists showed up to piggy back on whatever the protest was about. It looks to me like the Bundy group piggy backed on a peaceful protey mostly locals to carry out their own agenda -- picking a gunfight with the feds. I think that agenda has quite a bit to do with mormon history and scripture. You're free to disagree.
I agree with you that Mormon histroy plays a part here in the protest. What bothers me is that no one is reporting what the federal goverment has done in Harney county. The feds are over riding state laws. A big issue here is, does the state have any rights againsts the federal goverment. The Feds are getting rid of the cowboy and their way of life like they did the Native Americans. It looks like the Feds can just take your private ranch if they so desire.
I'm personally not tallking about the issues you mention here because I don't see a mormon angle to them.
Exactly my point. There is no Mormon angle.
Posted: 04 January 2016 06:10 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 18 ]
Nephi
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Walking guard duty is none other than Capt. MORON.
How appropriate.
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He does not, however - have power in the Priesthood.
That is reserved for the Cat.
Posted: 04 January 2016 08:27 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 19 ]
Felix
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Disputes between ranchers and federal authorities (BLM bullies) have been going on for many decades. This link provides example of similar dispute. Fortunatly the locally elected sheriff knew his responsibility. He protected the rights of the citizens who elected him, upheld the rule of law and managed to avert blood shed. Meet a constitutional sheriff, Tony DeMeo
Posted: 05 January 2016 03:51 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 20 ]
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Runtu
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
Runtu wrote a good blog post on this issue.
I haven't been around much, but thanks for the kind words. One of the problems of the "Mormon Moment" is that it peeled back the facade of "happy families, model citizens" and exposed some of the deeply troubling aspects of LDS culture. If this had happened a few years ago, no one would have made the connection of "Captain Moroni" to Mormonism. They say that all press is good press, but I'm not so sure.
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Posted: 05 January 2016 04:52 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 21 ]
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josephs myth
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son of perdition:
Brad (ZeeZrom): I'm personally not tallking about the issues you mention here because I don't see a mormon angle to them.
Exactly my point. There is no Mormon angle.
http://theweek.com/speedreads/597492/bundy-militia-cites-mormon-scripture-oregon-standoff-mormon-church-disagrees
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/oregon-militia-family-cites-mormonism-armed-conflicts-article-1.2484657
http://www.oregonlive.com/faith/2016/01/bundy_mormonism.html
Careful guys, old Mormon beliefs can run deep, and LDS holdovers (not trusting Governments) and Mormon ''hang-on's" like trusting no one except your tribe, can sometimes run deeper yet I'm afraid.
I know, I have em too...
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Posted: 05 January 2016 06:20 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 22 ]
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WinstonSmith
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josephs myth:
son of perdition:
Brad (ZeeZrom): I'm personally not tallking about the issues you mention here because I don't see a mormon angle to them.
Exactly my point. There is no Mormon angle.
http://theweek.com/speedreads/597492/bundy-militia-cites-mormon-scripture-oregon-standoff-mormon-church-disagrees
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/oregon-militia-family-cites-mormonism-armed-conflicts-article-1.2484657
http://www.oregonlive.com/faith/2016/01/bundy_mormonism.html
Careful guys, old Mormon beliefs can run deep, and LDS holdovers (not trusting Governments) and Mormon ''hang-on's" like trusting no one except your tribe, can sometimes run deeper yet I'm afraid.
I know, I have em too...
JS - "old Mormon beliefs" --- not sure what you mean --- Doctrinal Beliefs? (sources) --- Cultural Beliefs? Yeah - I can see that, although that statement is very stereotypical and full of conjecture.
I can speak only through the lenses of my experiences---most Mormons that I know tend to be very patriotic. Seems a bit of an oxymoron to see this type of patriotic display to a government that one distrusts. Again through my lenses: Most U.S Mormons do not distrust government (any more than anyone else), at best you might claim a mainstream Mormon distrust democrats or maybe a government controled by democrats. The Bundy's do not even come close to representing contemporary Mormons.
------------------
I don't see a "Mormon Angle" --- Are there some residual Mormon cultural aspects manifested by the "Bundys"? Is the belief system of the Bundys, rooted in their Mormon heritage? I think the Church is concerned about this, and the connection that might be pointed out --- hence the quick condemnation.
-----------------
I find the whole concept of: who own's or controls the land intriguing. The Bundy's feel wronged by the Federal Government, yet I wonder how empathetic they are to the Native Americans. Hypothetically, I wonder what the Bundy reaction would be, if the Federal Government decided to return all disputed lands back to the Native Americans. Would they still feel wronged by the FG?
Does anyone see any parallels with the Israeli-palistinian conflict over land and this debacle?
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Posted: 05 January 2016 08:01 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 23 ]
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A quick note. The church did not disavow the Oregon occupation. When the church wants to do something officially, something it cares about, it has an apostle make the statement. That's what they did with the "children of gay marriage" fiasco, wasn't it?
Here they just had some guy in the public relations department say something. That is hardly official. It can be denied later, or just ignored. People with authority to speak for the church remain silent.
Posted: 05 January 2016 10:24 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 24 ]
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So, I did a little reading on the whole rancher/BLM conflict. Here's an interesting paper I found that supplies some helpful history and some pretty striking economic information.
Basically, the federal government, through purchase and through war, acquired the "west." The original inhabitants were not given any ownership in the lands they occupied. Instead, they were shunted off on to reservations -- making room for the white settlers on the good land and forcibly relocating the natives to less attractive land no one wanted. The federal government transferred its ownership of parcels of land to the white settlers who wanted to own it through acts such as the homestead act.
As ranching expanded westward, the ranchers treated the federally owned land as a free for all for grazing. This led to the well-known phenomonon of the "tragedy of the commons." Because cattle were basically being grazed on other people's land, there was little incentive to prevent overgrazing and destruction of the habitat. As a result, the federal government began to more actively manage its lands with standards enacted by Congress as to how it was to be managed. Without this regulation, the ranchers would have put themselves out of business by overgrazing the public lands they were making money off of.
Far from trying to eliminate the "cowboy" way of life, it looks to me like the government in general and the BLM in particular has gone to some extraordinary lengths to preserve it. Without regulation of these public lands, the ranchers would have grazed themselves right out of business. Moreover, as the article shows, in 2014, the cost of grazing permits on BLM land was about 6% of the cost of grazing permits from private owners. In other words, the BLM is providing a huge subsidy to ranchers who don't own or can't afford to own enough land to support their herds. Without this subsidy, the Cliven Bundys of the world would be out of business. I've heard ranchers who own their grazing land refer to folks like the Bundys as "welfare ranchers."
Now, I don't have a problem with the concept of subsidizing an industry or even a way of life. There may be perfectly justifiable reasons from a public policy standpoint to heavily subsidize the Cliven Bundys of the world. But I do have a problem with people who constantly portray the government as a "bully" while at the same time sucking heavily from the government teat to make a living.
As for the Hammonds' specific case, I have a few thoughts. The land inside the wildlife refuge was a Reservation. The tribe originally assigned to the reservation was relocated so that white settlers, mainly ranchers, could access the land. To me, that doesn't exactly give the ranchers the moral high ground. The original refuge was established over 100 years ago. Over time, because the refuge wasn't large enough to fully protect the wildife it was intended to protect, the feds have sought to enlarge the refuge through voluntary purchases of land and voluntary land swaps. The Hammonds have chosen not to do either. But they still feel entitled to graze their cattle on land that isn't theirs and water them with water they don't own the rights to. That has resulted in lots of friction and accusations back and forth.
I read the piece from the conservative treehouse. It does a very nice job of presenting one side of a complicated set of issues. It does not attempt to discuss or evaluate the case the government put on at trial. I think one of the factors that likely weighed heavily on the jury is that the Hammonds put a firefighting crew in danger when they lit the second fire. The bottom line is, there was a jury of their peers that heard both sides of the story and convicted the two men. They had their day in court, which is what they were entitled to. The jury didn't buy their story.
Much of the focus of the current protests is on the length of the sentences (five years). There's lots of irony in that. Over the last few decades, conservatives have pushed a "get tough on crime" agenda that included taking sentencing discretion away from judges in favor of mandatory minimum sentences and formulas for determining prison sentences. As a result, the U.S. imprisons a larger percentage of its population than almost every other country in the world. And, by far, the burden of those sentences has fallen on the poor and non-whites. Look up the percentages of black men that we imprison -- the numbers are pretty shocking.
Now, conservatives seem pretty happy with letting that burden, and the unfairness of the minimum sentences, fall on the poor, blacks, and hispanics. But when a couple of white ranchers have to play by the same rules, suddenly they can't stop talking about government tyranny. In my opinion, conservatives have only themselves to blame for the tyranny of mandatory minimum sentences. They have the power to fix that situation any time they choose to do so.
I should disclose that I really, really hate people who set fires. A fire is a tremendously destructive force. When an individual or a few individuals start a fire as the Hammonds did, they have no ability to control it. They put the lives and the property of others at tremendous risk. They impose heavy costs on the government to fight the fire to protect the property of others. So, personally, I have no problem with being tough on people who set fires that they know they can't control.
That's my current opinon. It may change with more facts. But I do think there is a complicated story here that is not reflected in articles like the one from the conservative treehouse.
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Posted: 05 January 2016 01:17 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 25 ]
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http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com//news/why-the-oregon-militia-is-citing-the-book-of-mormons-military-stud-muffin
Military Stud Muffin? Now I never saw that coming!
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Posted: 05 January 2016 06:55 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 26 ]
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Tessa
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So if Monson told them to stand down and go home....would they listen?
Or are they fundy polygamous folks?
I thought they "believed" in following the law of the land in the Articles of Faith?
it's gonna get sticky.
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Posted: 05 January 2016 08:37 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 27 ]
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This has to be embarassing for the church. The last thing they want is people looking into their history--even more.
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Posted: 06 January 2016 12:17 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 28 ]
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son of perdition
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
So, I did a little reading on the whole rancher/BLM conflict. Here's an interesting paper I found that supplies some helpful history and some pretty striking economic information.
Basically, the federal government, through purchase and through war, acquired the "west." The original inhabitants were not given any ownership in the lands they occupied. Instead, they were shunted off on to reservations -- making room for the white settlers on the good land and forcibly relocating the natives to less attractive land no one wanted. The federal government transferred its ownership of parcels of land to the white settlers who wanted to own it through acts such as the homestead act.
As ranching expanded westward, the ranchers treated the federally owned land as a free for all for grazing. This led to the well-known phenomonon of the "tragedy of the commons." Because cattle were basically being grazed on other people's land, there was little incentive to prevent overgrazing and destruction of the habitat. As a result, the federal government began to more actively manage its lands with standards enacted by Congress as to how it was to be managed. Without this regulation, the ranchers would have put themselves out of business by overgrazing the public lands they were making money off of.
Far from trying to eliminate the "cowboy" way of life, it looks to me like the government in general and the BLM in particular has gone to some extraordinary lengths to preserve it. Without regulation of these public lands, the ranchers would have grazed themselves right out of business. Moreover, as the article shows, in 2014, the cost of grazing permits on BLM land was about 6% of the cost of grazing permits from private owners. In other words, the BLM is providing a huge subsidy to ranchers who don't own or can't afford to own enough land to support their herds. Without this subsidy, the Cliven Bundys of the world would be out of business. I've heard ranchers who own their grazing land refer to folks like the Bundys as "welfare ranchers."
Now, I don't have a problem with the concept of subsidizing an industry or even a way of life. There may be perfectly justifiable reasons from a public policy standpoint to heavily subsidize the Cliven Bundys of the world. But I do have a problem with people who constantly portray the government as a "bully" while at the same time sucking heavily from the government teat to make a living.
As for the Hammonds' specific case, I have a few thoughts. The land inside the wildlife refuge was a Reservation. The tribe originally assigned to the reservation was relocated so that white settlers, mainly ranchers, could access the land. To me, that doesn't exactly give the ranchers the moral high ground. The original refuge was established over 100 years ago. Over time, because the refuge wasn't large enough to fully protect the wildife it was intended to protect, the feds have sought to enlarge the refuge through voluntary purchases of land and voluntary land swaps. The Hammonds have chosen not to do either. But they still feel entitled to graze their cattle on land that isn't theirs and water them with water they don't own the rights to. That has resulted in lots of friction and accusations back and forth.
I read the piece from the conservative treehouse. It does a very nice job of presenting one side of a complicated set of issues. It does not attempt to discuss or evaluate the case the government put on at trial. I think one of the factors that likely weighed heavily on the jury is that the Hammonds put a firefighting crew in danger when they lit the second fire. The bottom line is, there was a jury of their peers that heard both sides of the story and convicted the two men. They had their day in court, which is what they were entitled to. The jury didn't buy their story.
Much of the focus of the current protests is on the length of the sentences (five years). There's lots of irony in that. Over the last few decades, conservatives have pushed a "get tough on crime" agenda that included taking sentencing discretion away from judges in favor of mandatory minimum sentences and formulas for determining prison sentences. As a result, the U.S. imprisons a larger percentage of its population than almost every other country in the world. And, by far, the burden of those sentences has fallen on the poor and non-whites. Look up the percentages of black men that we imprison -- the numbers are pretty shocking.
Now, conservatives seem pretty happy with letting that burden, and the unfairness of the minimum sentences, fall on the poor, blacks, and hispanics. But when a couple of white ranchers have to play by the same rules, suddenly they can't stop talking about government tyranny. In my opinion, conservatives have only themselves to blame for the tyranny of mandatory minimum sentences. They have the power to fix that situation any time they choose to do so.
I should disclose that I really, really hate people who set fires. A fire is a tremendously destructive force. When an individual or a few individuals start a fire as the Hammonds did, they have no ability to control it. They put the lives and the property of others at tremendous risk. They impose heavy costs on the government to fight the fire to protect the property of others. So, personally, I have no problem with being tough on people who set fires that they know they can't control.
That's my current opinon. It may change with more facts. But I do think there is a complicated story here that is not reflected in articles like the one from the conservative treehouse.
Farmers have the right to burn off their land. It's called agricultual burning. The Hammonds admit that they lit the fire on their own property to protect it. Their fire spead on to federal land. It burned 1 acre. The Hammonds put this fire out themsleves. They did not put anyone at risk. This type of burning is done regularly. This is not forested land. This was a grass fire with some bush. They are being tried as terrorists. The federal govenment has no claims against this fire because their wasn't any damage done. In point of fact, burning off the range improves the range.
As for the cattle on the refuge. Harney county has open range laws. This means that all livestock has the right of way. If you hit a cow with your vehicle in this part of the world you will find yourself paying the rancher for the cow. The law require those who don't want livestock on their property to fence it. These are often called Fence out laws. The refuge refuses to fence out the cows like the law requires. And at the same time the feds are prosecuting the Hammonds for their cows grazing on refuge land. So does the federal government have the right to ignore the open range laws? If you have ever raised cows you know they get out sometimes and go where you don't want them to go. Country folk know this and have some tolerance around this problem. The Feds don't seem to be good neighbors.
The Hammonds do not want the Bundys help. They are against an armed protest. In fact the ranching community is against want the Bundys are doing. The Bundys have taking it up on themselves to start an armed protest.
Five reasons you should side with the Hammonds.
http://www.dailywire.com/news/2303/here-are-five-reasons-you-should-side-hammond-ben-shapiro
Posted: 06 January 2016 03:35 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 29 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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son of perdition:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
So, I did a little reading on the whole rancher/BLM conflict. Here's an interesting paper I found that supplies some helpful history and some pretty striking economic information.
Basically, the federal government, through purchase and through war, acquired the "west." The original inhabitants were not given any ownership in the lands they occupied. Instead, they were shunted off on to reservations -- making room for the white settlers on the good land and forcibly relocating the natives to less attractive land no one wanted. The federal government transferred its ownership of parcels of land to the white settlers who wanted to own it through acts such as the homestead act.
As ranching expanded westward, the ranchers treated the federally owned land as a free for all for grazing. This led to the well-known phenomonon of the "tragedy of the commons." Because cattle were basically being grazed on other people's land, there was little incentive to prevent overgrazing and destruction of the habitat. As a result, the federal government began to more actively manage its lands with standards enacted by Congress as to how it was to be managed. Without this regulation, the ranchers would have put themselves out of business by overgrazing the public lands they were making money off of.
Far from trying to eliminate the "cowboy" way of life, it looks to me like the government in general and the BLM in particular has gone to some extraordinary lengths to preserve it. Without regulation of these public lands, the ranchers would have grazed themselves right out of business. Moreover, as the article shows, in 2014, the cost of grazing permits on BLM land was about 6% of the cost of grazing permits from private owners. In other words, the BLM is providing a huge subsidy to ranchers who don't own or can't afford to own enough land to support their herds. Without this subsidy, the Cliven Bundys of the world would be out of business. I've heard ranchers who own their grazing land refer to folks like the Bundys as "welfare ranchers."
Now, I don't have a problem with the concept of subsidizing an industry or even a way of life. There may be perfectly justifiable reasons from a public policy standpoint to heavily subsidize the Cliven Bundys of the world. But I do have a problem with people who constantly portray the government as a "bully" while at the same time sucking heavily from the government teat to make a living.
As for the Hammonds' specific case, I have a few thoughts. The land inside the wildlife refuge was a Reservation. The tribe originally assigned to the reservation was relocated so that white settlers, mainly ranchers, could access the land. To me, that doesn't exactly give the ranchers the moral high ground. The original refuge was established over 100 years ago. Over time, because the refuge wasn't large enough to fully protect the wildife it was intended to protect, the feds have sought to enlarge the refuge through voluntary purchases of land and voluntary land swaps. The Hammonds have chosen not to do either. But they still feel entitled to graze their cattle on land that isn't theirs and water them with water they don't own the rights to. That has resulted in lots of friction and accusations back and forth.
I read the piece from the conservative treehouse. It does a very nice job of presenting one side of a complicated set of issues. It does not attempt to discuss or evaluate the case the government put on at trial. I think one of the factors that likely weighed heavily on the jury is that the Hammonds put a firefighting crew in danger when they lit the second fire. The bottom line is, there was a jury of their peers that heard both sides of the story and convicted the two men. They had their day in court, which is what they were entitled to. The jury didn't buy their story.
Much of the focus of the current protests is on the length of the sentences (five years). There's lots of irony in that. Over the last few decades, conservatives have pushed a "get tough on crime" agenda that included taking sentencing discretion away from judges in favor of mandatory minimum sentences and formulas for determining prison sentences. As a result, the U.S. imprisons a larger percentage of its population than almost every other country in the world. And, by far, the burden of those sentences has fallen on the poor and non-whites. Look up the percentages of black men that we imprison -- the numbers are pretty shocking.
Now, conservatives seem pretty happy with letting that burden, and the unfairness of the minimum sentences, fall on the poor, blacks, and hispanics. But when a couple of white ranchers have to play by the same rules, suddenly they can't stop talking about government tyranny. In my opinion, conservatives have only themselves to blame for the tyranny of mandatory minimum sentences. They have the power to fix that situation any time they choose to do so.
I should disclose that I really, really hate people who set fires. A fire is a tremendously destructive force. When an individual or a few individuals start a fire as the Hammonds did, they have no ability to control it. They put the lives and the property of others at tremendous risk. They impose heavy costs on the government to fight the fire to protect the property of others. So, personally, I have no problem with being tough on people who set fires that they know they can't control.
That's my current opinon. It may change with more facts. But I do think there is a complicated story here that is not reflected in articles like the one from the conservative treehouse.
Farmers have the right to burn off their land. It's called agricultual burning. The Hammonds admit that they lit the fire on their own property to protect it. Their fire spead on to federal land. It burned 1 acre. The Hammonds put this fire out themsleves. They did not put anyone at risk. This type of burning is done regularly. This is not forested land. This was a grass fire with some bush. They are being tried as terrorists. The federal govenment has no claims against this fire because their wasn't any damage done. In point of fact, burning off the range improves the range.
As for the cattle on the refuge. Harney county has open range laws. This means that all livestock has the right of way. If you hit a cow with your vehicle in this part of the world you will find yourself paying the rancher for the cow. The law require those who don't want livestock on their property to fence it. These are often called Fence out laws. The refuge refuses to fence out the cows like the law requires. And at the same time the feds are prosecuting the Hammonds for their cows grazing on refuge land. So does the federal government have the right to ignore the open range laws? If you have ever raised cows you know they get out sometimes and go where you don't want them to go. Country folk know this and have some tolerance around this problem. The Feds don't seem to be good neighbors.
The Hammonds do not want the Bundys help. They are against an armed protest. In fact the ranching community is against want the Bundys are doing. The Bundys have taking it up on themselves to start an armed protest.
Five reasons you should side with the Hammonds.
http://www.dailywire.com/news/2303/here-are-five-reasons-you-should-side-hammond-ben-shapiro
According to the Harney County webpage, a permit is needed to burn. There is no exception for "agricultural burning." Link There is no general right of a land owner to burn on his own land any time he chooses.
Here is a link to the 9th Circuit's decision in the Hammond case:
Link The recitation of facts in an appellate opinon comes from the facts found in the jury trial. Those facts include:
1. Before the fires involved in this case, Steve Hammond was specifically warned after fires he set spread onto federal land.
2. The government case was based on multiple fires -- not just the two that resulted in convictions.
3. A member of the Hammond family testified that the first fire that resulted in a conviction was set to cover up illegal poaching. That family member was nearly burned as a result of setting that fire at the direction of Steve Hammond. The fire took burned federal lands out of production for two years.
3. The second fire was intentionally set during a burn ban. The Hammonds did not seek a waiver to set the fire, which they could have done. A firefighting team was nearby. The team spotted the Hammond's fire and moved out of the way.
This was intentional, illegal, and irresponsible conduct by the Hammonds. When you set a fire, you don't have control over where it goes. There is good evidence that the Hammonds simply had decided they new better than both the county and federal goverment, and would set fires whenver they pleased. As far as I'm concerned, that's a sufficient reason not to "side" with them.
The Hammonds were not tried "as terrorists." The statute under which they were tried was enacted back in the 1970s. It was later amended as part of a huge anti-terrorism bill that changed parts of dozens and dozens of existing statutes. The changes included adding malicious destruction of goverment property by fire (the existing statute dealt with explosions) and the mandatory minimum sentence of 5 years (before it had been a maximum of 10 years). The statute itself makes no reference to terrorism. I've read up on this quite a bit and have not seen any indication that the government tried the case as a terrorism case. Nothing in the 9th Circuit opinion or the sentencing recommndations makes any reference to terrorism.
With respect to grazing, the law isn't quite so simple. Oregon citizens have the right to enact livestock districts, in which the fence out rule is reversed. So open range isn't absolute in any sense. Moreover, the property clause of the U.S. constitution specifically gives the federal government sovereignity over federal lands. The states do not have the power to take that sovereignity away. So, no, the state of Oregon does not have the right to force U.S. taxpayers to pay for fencing to keep other people's cattle off federal land. There is a dispute over who has responsibility to pay for fencing in the nearby Steen Mountain Wilderness, which involves interpreation of the statute that created that wilderness.
In my opinion, there is quite a bit of inaccurate information floating around about the Hammond case. Here is a letter from the U.S. Attorney in Oregon explaining the evidence that was presented at trial and the theories under which the case was tried.
The bottom line for me is that the Hammonds were convicted of arson by a jury of their peers. I've expressed my view of people who start fires they can't control. That's not to say that there aren't legitimate grievances by ranchers in Harney county over practices of the BLM. There may be, but they have nothing to do with the Hammonds convictions.
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Posted: 07 January 2016 12:37 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 30 ]
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josephs myth
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Somebody please get these fools a better data service plan, or are these Mormon folks plain and ordinary, LDS Internet Avoiders?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3387117/Stolen-valor-Militiaman-bodyguard-ranchers-Cliven-Ammon-Bundy-posing-retired-Marine-served-Afghanistan-Iraq-boost-combat-credentials.html
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_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
Posted: 07 January 2016 08:50 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 31 ]
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son of perdition
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
son of perdition:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
So, I did a little reading on the whole rancher/BLM conflict. Here's an interesting paper I found that supplies some helpful history and some pretty striking economic information.
Basically, the federal government, through purchase and through war, acquired the "west." The original inhabitants were not given any ownership in the lands they occupied. Instead, they were shunted off on to reservations -- making room for the white settlers on the good land and forcibly relocating the natives to less attractive land no one wanted. The federal government transferred its ownership of parcels of land to the white settlers who wanted to own it through acts such as the homestead act.
As ranching expanded westward, the ranchers treated the federally owned land as a free for all for grazing. This led to the well-known phenomonon of the "tragedy of the commons." Because cattle were basically being grazed on other people's land, there was little incentive to prevent overgrazing and destruction of the habitat. As a result, the federal government began to more actively manage its lands with standards enacted by Congress as to how it was to be managed. Without this regulation, the ranchers would have put themselves out of business by overgrazing the public lands they were making money off of.
Far from trying to eliminate the "cowboy" way of life, it looks to me like the government in general and the BLM in particular has gone to some extraordinary lengths to preserve it. Without regulation of these public lands, the ranchers would have grazed themselves right out of business. Moreover, as the article shows, in 2014, the cost of grazing permits on BLM land was about 6% of the cost of grazing permits from private owners. In other words, the BLM is providing a huge subsidy to ranchers who don't own or can't afford to own enough land to support their herds. Without this subsidy, the Cliven Bundys of the world would be out of business. I've heard ranchers who own their grazing land refer to folks like the Bundys as "welfare ranchers."
Now, I don't have a problem with the concept of subsidizing an industry or even a way of life. There may be perfectly justifiable reasons from a public policy standpoint to heavily subsidize the Cliven Bundys of the world. But I do have a problem with people who constantly portray the government as a "bully" while at the same time sucking heavily from the government teat to make a living.
As for the Hammonds' specific case, I have a few thoughts. The land inside the wildlife refuge was a Reservation. The tribe originally assigned to the reservation was relocated so that white settlers, mainly ranchers, could access the land. To me, that doesn't exactly give the ranchers the moral high ground. The original refuge was established over 100 years ago. Over time, because the refuge wasn't large enough to fully protect the wildife it was intended to protect, the feds have sought to enlarge the refuge through voluntary purchases of land and voluntary land swaps. The Hammonds have chosen not to do either. But they still feel entitled to graze their cattle on land that isn't theirs and water them with water they don't own the rights to. That has resulted in lots of friction and accusations back and forth.
I read the piece from the conservative treehouse. It does a very nice job of presenting one side of a complicated set of issues. It does not attempt to discuss or evaluate the case the government put on at trial. I think one of the factors that likely weighed heavily on the jury is that the Hammonds put a firefighting crew in danger when they lit the second fire. The bottom line is, there was a jury of their peers that heard both sides of the story and convicted the two men. They had their day in court, which is what they were entitled to. The jury didn't buy their story.
Much of the focus of the current protests is on the length of the sentences (five years). There's lots of irony in that. Over the last few decades, conservatives have pushed a "get tough on crime" agenda that included taking sentencing discretion away from judges in favor of mandatory minimum sentences and formulas for determining prison sentences. As a result, the U.S. imprisons a larger percentage of its population than almost every other country in the world. And, by far, the burden of those sentences has fallen on the poor and non-whites. Look up the percentages of black men that we imprison -- the numbers are pretty shocking.
Now, conservatives seem pretty happy with letting that burden, and the unfairness of the minimum sentences, fall on the poor, blacks, and hispanics. But when a couple of white ranchers have to play by the same rules, suddenly they can't stop talking about government tyranny. In my opinion, conservatives have only themselves to blame for the tyranny of mandatory minimum sentences. They have the power to fix that situation any time they choose to do so.
I should disclose that I really, really hate people who set fires. A fire is a tremendously destructive force. When an individual or a few individuals start a fire as the Hammonds did, they have no ability to control it. They put the lives and the property of others at tremendous risk. They impose heavy costs on the government to fight the fire to protect the property of others. So, personally, I have no problem with being tough on people who set fires that they know they can't control.
That's my current opinon. It may change with more facts. But I do think there is a complicated story here that is not reflected in articles like the one from the conservative treehouse.
Farmers have the right to burn off their land. It's called agricultual burning. The Hammonds admit that they lit the fire on their own property to protect it. Their fire spead on to federal land. It burned 1 acre. The Hammonds put this fire out themsleves. They did not put anyone at risk. This type of burning is done regularly. This is not forested land. This was a grass fire with some bush. They are being tried as terrorists. The federal govenment has no claims against this fire because their wasn't any damage done. In point of fact, burning off the range improves the range.
As for the cattle on the refuge. Harney county has open range laws. This means that all livestock has the right of way. If you hit a cow with your vehicle in this part of the world you will find yourself paying the rancher for the cow. The law require those who don't want livestock on their property to fence it. These are often called Fence out laws. The refuge refuses to fence out the cows like the law requires. And at the same time the feds are prosecuting the Hammonds for their cows grazing on refuge land. So does the federal government have the right to ignore the open range laws? If you have ever raised cows you know they get out sometimes and go where you don't want them to go. Country folk know this and have some tolerance around this problem. The Feds don't seem to be good neighbors.
The Hammonds do not want the Bundys help. They are against an armed protest. In fact the ranching community is against want the Bundys are doing. The Bundys have taking it up on themselves to start an armed protest.
Five reasons you should side with the Hammonds.
http://www.dailywire.com/news/2303/here-are-five-reasons-you-should-side-hammond-ben-shapiro
According to the Harney County webpage, a permit is needed to burn. There is no exception for "agricultural burning." Link There is no general right of a land owner to burn on his own land any time he chooses.
Here is a link to the 9th Circuit's decision in the Hammond case:
Link The recitation of facts in an appellate opinon comes from the facts found in the jury trial. Those facts include:
1. Before the fires involved in this case, Steve Hammond was specifically warned after fires he set spread onto federal land.
2. The government case was based on multiple fires -- not just the two that resulted in convictions.
3. A member of the Hammond family testified that the first fire that resulted in a conviction was set to cover up illegal poaching. That family member was nearly burned as a result of setting that fire at the direction of Steve Hammond. The fire took burned federal lands out of production for two years.
3. The second fire was intentionally set during a burn ban. The Hammonds did not seek a waiver to set the fire, which they could have done. A firefighting team was nearby. The team spotted the Hammond's fire and moved out of the way.
This was intentional, illegal, and irresponsible conduct by the Hammonds. When you set a fire, you don't have control over where it goes. There is good evidence that the Hammonds simply had decided they new better than both the county and federal goverment, and would set fires whenver they pleased. As far as I'm concerned, that's a sufficient reason not to "side" with them.
The Hammonds were not tried "as terrorists." The statute under which they were tried was enacted back in the 1970s. It was later amended as part of a huge anti-terrorism bill that changed parts of dozens and dozens of existing statutes. The changes included adding malicious destruction of goverment property by fire (the existing statute dealt with explosions) and the mandatory minimum sentence of 5 years (before it had been a maximum of 10 years). The statute itself makes no reference to terrorism. I've read up on this quite a bit and have not seen any indication that the government tried the case as a terrorism case. Nothing in the 9th Circuit opinion or the sentencing recommndations makes any reference to terrorism.
With respect to grazing, the law isn't quite so simple. Oregon citizens have the right to enact livestock districts, in which the fence out rule is reversed. So open range isn't absolute in any sense. Moreover, the property clause of the U.S. constitution specifically gives the federal government sovereignity over federal lands. The states do not have the power to take that sovereignity away. So, no, the state of Oregon does not have the right to force U.S. taxpayers to pay for fencing to keep other people's cattle off federal land. There is a dispute over who has responsibility to pay for fencing in the nearby Steen Mountain Wilderness, which involves interpreation of the statute that created that wilderness.
In my opinion, there is quite a bit of inaccurate information floating around about the Hammond case. Here is a letter from the U.S. Attorney in Oregon explaining the evidence that was presented at trial and the theories under which the case was tried.
The bottom line for me is that the Hammonds were convicted of arson by a jury of their peers. I've expressed my view of people who start fires they can't control. That's not to say that there aren't legitimate grievances by ranchers in Harney county over practices of the BLM. There may be, but they have nothing to do with the Hammonds convictions.
Yes the Hammonds did break the law but I don't think the they should be convicted of terrorism. And it's a sad ####### day when the Bundies are the spokes people for ranchers in the west.
Posted: 07 January 2016 09:26 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 32 ]
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I completely agree with you on the Bundies.
As I explained above, the Hammonds were not convicted of terrorism. They were convicted of maliciously burning federal property. Had they been convicted of terrorism, they would be in jail for lots longer than 5 years.
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Posted: 07 January 2016 11:11 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 33 ]
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Here's an article that discusses subsidies that ranchers get from the federal government. Link I think this is more support for the notion that the federal goverment goes out of its way to support ranchers like the Hammonds (and the Bundys) and is not trying to destroy their way of life.
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Posted: 07 January 2016 11:16 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 34 ]
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josephs myth
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Seems likely for more trouble.
http://www.sltrib.com/home/3381888-155/small-utah-born-political-party-has-rift
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Posted: 07 January 2016 11:28 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 35 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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josephs myth:
Seems likely for more trouble.
http://www.sltrib.com/home/3381888-155/small-utah-born-political-party-has-rift
Very interesting article. I've been curious to see whehter the church's statement on the Bundy insurrection would cause some of the more conservative LDS folks to part company with the church. Sounds like that process was occuring over other issues before this.
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Posted: 07 January 2016 01:21 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 36 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
Here's an article that discusses subsidies that ranchers get from the federal government. Link I think this is more support for the notion that the federal goverment goes out of its way to support ranchers like the Hammonds (and the Bundys) and is not trying to destroy their way of life.
..... This in yellow is important to me. They don't call the BLM the Bureau of Livestock and Mining for nothing. The Bundys are a perfect case. their grazing fees are cheap beyond understanding and yet they haven't paid them in years and the BLM has not made them do it.
Cattle run amok in the west and a lot of people think there are too many. Yet, it seems the BLM continues to issue permits with little concern for other uses. The Bundys and their followers seem to think they own the land and they don't.
That said, my biggest concern with what is going on right now is that so many people seem to not care about rule of law. It's okay to support grazing on public land and that isn't an point of view. It is criminal and extremist to break into a Fish and Wildlife Office and threaten to kill any law enforcement officer that comes to arrest you.
The Hammonds aren't terrorists but the Bundys are. It's also pretty clear that the Bundy's think are modeling their treason on Captain Moroni.
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Posted: 07 January 2016 02:56 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 37 ]
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josephs myth:
Seems likely for more trouble.
http://www.sltrib.com/home/3381888-155/small-utah-born-political-party-has-rift
And even more trouble:
Link
MoreLink
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Posted: 07 January 2016 03:33 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 38 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
josephs myth:
Seems likely for more trouble.
http://www.sltrib.com/home/3381888-155/small-utah-born-political-party-has-rift
And even more trouble:
Link
MoreLink
What a circus! Guess mormonism can either steal your mind and make you into a zombie-like slave or...it can make you nuts!
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 07 January 2016 03:38 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 39 ]
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josephs myth:
Seems likely for more trouble.
http://www.sltrib.com/home/3381888-155/small-utah-born-political-party-has-rift
A classic comment on the article, "Why are they waiting for a few Samuel Adams to come out of the woodwork? I get mine out of the fridge.
Stay thirsty my friend!"
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Posted: 07 January 2016 03:59 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 40 ]
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I was just thinking...the church pretends innocence, yet the church had temple patrons take an oath-as part of the temple endowment--that they would pray for and (I believe) teach their children to pray for the failure of the US Government. Does anyone know when this oath was removed? I think it was sometime in the 1900's-- after it was made public. The church wishes no one remembered such things but the documentation is out there and still believed by some. Everything the church ever taught--no matter how crazy or evil--is still believed by some. The church does not admit to its past wrongs--just trys to cover them enough to keep and convert as many as possible. What a tangled web of lies! Always coming back to bite them!
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
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Mormon Problems In Oregon (Bundy / Hammond’s)
Posted: 07 January 2016 07:25 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 41 ]
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Silly question but are these "Bundys" related even remotely to Ted Bundy, the serial killer? Just curious.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 08 January 2016 12:40 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 42 ]
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Tessa:
Silly question but are these "Bundys" related even remotely to Ted Bundy, the serial killer? Just curious.
I may doubt the millennials and other youngsters know much about the Mormon girl stalking murderer, Ted Bundy.
http://www.shfwire.com/ted-bundy-s-deadly-vw-bug-now-display/
Thanks to polygamy and maybe excessive inside paranoia, almost everybody Mormon is related to everybody Mormon in and around Utah.
Google search Accidental LDS Incest, and maybe see what turns up.
Not a chance there is any blood relation through the Bundy surname though. Ted Bundy was raised by his mother Louise Cowell and I think his father is unknown. After Louise married Jonny Culpepper Bundy when her kid was around 12 years old, Ted adopted his surname to become Ted Bundy. Therefore it is nearly impossible that he could be related to Aaron Bundy. Ted Bundy has no known biological relations with any Bundy's except his 5 half-siblings.
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Posted: 10 January 2016 06:49 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 43 ]
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Oregonian Rifle Ready LDS Cowboys
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/heavily_armed_security_detail.html
Horror Movie (The Oregonian)
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
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Posted: 11 January 2016 09:38 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 44 ]
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They should all be dying to read a much better book.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimdalrympleii/oregon-militia-members-post-apocalyptic-book-bears-striking#.yudRKj7d7
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
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Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
Posted: 12 January 2016 03:09 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 45 ]
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NPR, now it's gaining attention on NPR!
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/12/462813360/who-will-blink-first-armed-occupation-in-oregon-drags-on
Friday's meeting being arranged in town ought to be complete with Captain Moroni iPads.
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
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Posted: 12 January 2016 09:47 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 46 ]
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Apparently people have been sending them bags of dicks. Really.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHs77fmNOC0
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“I can’t go back to yesterday because I was a different person then.” Alice in Wonderland.
Posted: 14 January 2016 06:46 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 47 ]
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Why are the local people in Harney county so angry with the Federal Goverment?
Here is what Congressman Greg Walden has to say about this issue.
http://www.opb.org/radio/programs/thinkoutloud/segment/congressman-walden-local-take-on-sotu-legislative-days/
Posted: 14 January 2016 09:10 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 48 ]
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son of perdition:
Why are the local people in Harney county so angry with the Federal Goverment?
Here is what Congressman Greg Walden has to say about this issue.
http://www.opb.org/radio/programs/thinkoutloud/segment/congressman-walden-local-take-on-sotu-legislative-days/
Why are they angry? I think it's because many of them are going bankrupt because they can't compete with factory farms or with ranches in Brazil. I think they are angry because the government used to let their cows run roughshod over the land and that is changing.
I listened to the congressman’s speech. I thought he had a few good things to say in this speech even thoug I never liked Walden even when I lived in his district in Klamath Falls.
For years the BLM was nicknamed the Bureau of Livestock and Mining and that wasn’t for nothing. The problem as I see it is that public land belongs to the public and the public includes everybody not just good ole boys in cowboy hats. The people of Harney County are pissed off that the BLM is actually getting better at managing land for the all of the public. As the BLM gets better at managing land for everybody and not just the good ole boys club, the good ole boys are mad. That is where the Bundy’s come in with their Mormon flavor of indignation. As it turns out, Mormon flavored indignation smells a lot like most other extreme right wing views.
Representative Walden did say some good things, especially in the opening words of his speech. He condemned the Bundys and their treasonous compadres. I think the speech went downhill after that. Walden called them armed protesters and he mangled the English language in doing so. I wonder if Walden would call a gang of armed bank robbers “armed protesters.” The Bundys are doing much worse than bank robbers. They are attempting to steal millions of acres of land that belongs to you and me and they are committing treason by using violent threats to influence law. I am glad that Walden condemned the Bundys methods but I think it reprehensible that he took their invasion and attempted thievery as an opportunity to air his grievances with the government.
Walden could have waited until the terrorists were in prison but he didn’t. Walden stood up in congress and gave a speech that spent about 30 seconds talking about how it’s wrong to invade the United States and spent about 30 minutes sympathizing with the invaders. I agree with the first thirty seconds of his speech but he should have stopped there. It’s morally corrupt to invade the United States even if think you are emulating Captain Moroni.
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Posted: 14 January 2016 09:59 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 49 ]
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Ask yourself how you felt as a Mormon when out siders judged you as being just like the FLDS? The Bundys and Hammonds are only two families.
Being judged by the most radical elements in a group is not only unfair but wrong. I don't think the rancher has a fair chance of having their concerns really heard. Lets paint them all with one bush and demonize them like we did the native inhabitants who were here first. That's how it works.
We are fast becoming stupid as to where we get our resources. At some point, if we keep whittling away at our land taking it out of cultivation and use we are going to be dependent on foreign sources for our food timber minerals and other resources.
The government was required by law to fence the refuge but they didn't. Is it ok for our federal goverment to not follow through. The feds violated the law. They should be held to law just as the common citizen. We all know that when it comes to the law we have to abide by it. When the federal goverment or it's agents break the law they set a bad example for citizen who them think they are also just in breaking law. Ask the "Indian" who first held the land about the fairness of the Feds.
It makes us feel like we did the right thing to broaden a wildlife refuge. We are fast becoimg more concerned about animals than we are people.
I think the Bundys and Hammonds were and are misguided in their actions. The sources of income in Eastern Oregon are few. We can't afford to turn the entire planet into a tourist destination. The citizens in Eastern Oregon know that money is really only paper and resources come directly from the land and it's use. You can't print more potatoes.
Posted: 14 January 2016 10:36 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 50 ]
Hank
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son of perdition:
Ask yourself how you felt as a Mormon when out siders judged you as being just like the FLDS? The Bundys and Hammonds are only two families.
Being judged by the most radical elements in a group is not only unfair but wrong. I don't think the rancher has a fair chance of having their concerns really heard. Lets paint them all with one bush and demonize them like we did the native inhabitants who were here first. That's how it works.
We are fast becoming stupid as to where we get our resources. At some point, if we keep whittling away at our land taking it out of cultivation and use we are going to be dependent on foreign sources for our food timber minerals and other resources.
The government was required by law to fence the refuge but they didn't. Is it ok for our federal goverment to not follow through. The feds violated the law. They should be held to law just as the common citizen. We all know that when it comes to the law we have to abide by it. When the federal goverment or it's agents break the law they set a bad example for citizen who them think they are also just in breaking law. Ask the "Indian" who first held the land about the fairness of the Feds.
It makes us feel like we did the right thing to broaden a wildlife refuge. We are fast becoimg more concerned about animals than we are people.
I think the Bundys and Hammonds were and are misguided in their actions. The sources of income in Eastern Oregon are few. We can't turn the entire world into a tourist destination.
The belief among many agriculture departments throughout the country is that it is the federal government's unstated goal to stop agricuture in the USA and import all food...for environmental reasons. Many of the policies coming from D.C. point to this. The only other beneficiary (but with added costs) will be factory farms.
Almost all of the new regs make it harder for a family to farm the back 40 while staying in compliance and keeping it profitable. The type of regs that I'm involved with, even California is completely against them (all of them), and CA is by far the most restrictive state and first to get onboard with federal regulations.
Posted: 14 January 2016 11:50 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 51 ]
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Hiker Daddy
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son of perdition:
Ask yourself how you felt as a Mormon when out siders judged you as being just like the FLDS? The Bundys and Hammonds are only two families.
Being judged by the most radical elements in a group is not only unfair but wrong. I don't think the rancher has a fair chance of having their concerns really heard. Lets paint them all with one bush and demonize them like we did the native inhabitants who were here first. That's how it works.
We are fast becoming stupid as to where we get our resources. At some point, if we keep whittling away at our land taking it out of cultivation and use we are going to be dependent on foreign sources for our food timber minerals and other resources.
The government was required by law to fence the refuge but they didn't. Is it ok for our federal goverment to not follow through. The feds violated the law. They should be held to law just as the common citizen. We all know that when it comes to the law we have to abide by it. When the federal goverment or it's agents break the law they set a bad example for citizen who them think they are also just in breaking law. Ask the "Indian" who first held the land about the fairness of the Feds.
It makes us feel like we did the right thing to broaden a wildlife refuge. We are fast becoimg more concerned about animals than we are people.
I think the Bundys and Hammonds were and are misguided in their actions. The sources of income in Eastern Oregon are few. We can't afford to turn the entire planet into a tourist destination. The citizens in Eastern Oregon know that money is really only paper and resources come directly from the land and it's use. You can't print more potatoes.
Being judged for the most radical elements of a group is unfair and wrong. However, this thread started out as a critique of the Bundys and somewhere along the way somebody hijacked the thread and made it about the plight of ranchers in the desert. That said, I am interested their plight as well.
I lived quite a while in eastern Oregon and I like the place. The people are good people. I don't have a long term solution and I don't think they do either. They lash out at the government. I think the solutions start with losing our addiction to cowboy nostalgia. The good ole days were never all that good.
..... I think it's stupid to think that any substantial amount of beef has ever come from the sagebrush country of the West. Most beef comes from places where it rains and Oregon is a good example. They raise more grass fed beef in the single town of Tillamook than the millions of acres of eastern desert. It rains in western Oregon, grass grows, and cattle eat it. the midwest is a beef machine and has been since before the rise of factory farms
Most beef comes from feed lots. We may not like that fact but we are fast becoming stupid enough to ignore it. I don't like feed lots but I am not going to pretend beef comes sagebrush. It doesn't come sagebrush country and it never has. They subsidize corn farms in the midwest where it rains and they feed it to cattle. Even without corn subsidies, Harney County can't compete with places where it rains.
I feel for the people of eastern Oregon because like you said, their resources are few and getting fewer. In the recent past they were able to use the feds as a resource and in recent years congress cut funds for land use agencies. Land use agencies used to offer more contracts to build fences and roads but the money is drying up. I find it sad and frustrating that the politicians that complain the feds didn't build those fencees in the Steens are the same politicians that cut funding for environmental purposes like fences to keep cows out of refuges. To a degree the ranchers have always depended on federal contracts to build fences and other forms of subsidized land upkeep.
The angst in eastern Oregon is understandable and it's about a dying lifestyle. However, long term solutions shouldn't be based on fictions. It's a fiction that Harney County can compete in today's beef market. It's a fiction that cattle ranching in the desert has ever been sustainable without overgrazing and/or government subsidies.
... It is also a fiction that the United States is in any danger of needing to import most of our food. The United States is an agricultural powerhouse and we show no signs of slowing. We are the world's largest producer of food. It is pure fiction to say that public grazing in the desert has any connection to our food stability.
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Posted: 14 January 2016 12:20 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 52 ]
Hank
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Hiker Daddy:
... It is also a fiction that the United States is in any danger of needing to import most of our food. The United States is an agricultural powerhouse and we show no signs of slowing. We are the world's largest producer of food. It is pure fiction to say that public grazing in the desert has any connection to our food stability.
I wish I could go into more detail, but becuase of where I work and what I do, I can't without giving myself away. I stand by my comments as to what the long term goal appears to be.
Posted: 14 January 2016 12:36 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 53 ]
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josephs myth
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Hank:
Hiker Daddy:
... It is also a fiction that the United States is in any danger of needing to import most of our food. The United States is an agricultural powerhouse and we show no signs of slowing. We are the world's largest producer of food. It is pure fiction to say that public grazing in the desert has any connection to our food stability.
I wish I could go into more detail, but becuase of where I work and what I do, I can't without giving myself away. I stand by my comments as to what the long term goal appears to be.
You're getting into the widely circulating falsely held belief that fertilizers and agricultural runoff are the biggest contributors to the top two targets of rainwater contamination for streams and lake water.
And now we're learning its the ambient ocean and the air we breathe that carries the billions of tons of fertilizer-like nitrogen compounds and similar phosphorus compositions.
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Posted: 14 January 2016 02:47 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 54 ]
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Hiker Daddy
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Hank:
Hiker Daddy:
... It is also a fiction that the United States is in any danger of needing to import most of our food. The United States is an agricultural powerhouse and we show no signs of slowing. We are the world's largest producer of food. It is pure fiction to say that public grazing in the desert has any connection to our food stability.
I wish I could go into more detail, but becuase of where I work and what I do, I can't without giving myself away. I stand by my comments as to what the long term goal appears to be.
Hank, I am not going to ask you to out yourself by giving info from where you work. What I said is supported by the fact that there has been an agricultural trade surplus in the US and that surplus is growing. LINK
There are threats to US agriculture and I am concerned but so far nothing seems to be stopping the US ag machine.
I do think we should do something about international agreements like the NAFTA, The WTO, and the proposed TPP. These agreements could undermine US agriculture by giving further advantage to nations with cheap labor. I don't know if that is what you are talking about. LINK It makes sense to be concerned.
Right wingers are pushing hard for these agreements and they are oddly aligned with Obama. Cargill industries (Koch brothers) loves the TPP because they process food and want it made cheaply and Obama favors the TPP as well. His rationale doesn't make sense to me but his zeal for trade agreements is strong. Cheap food is more important to a lot of people than US farms. That said, the US has landed on top so far. I would love to see the TPP go down in flames. I would love to see NAFTA tossed out the window.
But I am a bit off topic because I am pretty damn sure ending those agreements wouldn't make ranching in the sagebrush sustainable. Ranching in sagebrush has never been sustainable and therein lies the problem for eastern Oregon and for the Bundy's of Nevada.
It's too dry for cattle production at any sustainable scale.
A lot of communities in the West are dying and they are lashing out at whoever is closest that doesn't dress and talk like them. There is a dispute over how the Hammonds burned some land and a dispute over who should pay for fences in the Steens Mountains but those issues are distractions from the fact that the lifestyle in Harney County, Oregon is dying fairly quickly from the cold fact that deserts don't support ranching for long. Government workers in Harney County are largely college educated and not born in Harney County yet they still draw a pay check while old guard ranchers work hard just to barely stay afloat. Some of them go bankrupt even with cheap grazing permits. It doesn't seem fair but it doesn't change the fact that cattle production in the desertcan't compete. That is true across most of Nevada where the Bundy's angst bred. Their lifestyle is dying and Captain Moroni can't save them. Neither can their stack of guns.
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“I can’t go back to yesterday because I was a different person then.” Alice in Wonderland.
Posted: 15 January 2016 05:53 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 55 ]
Hank
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Hiker Daddy:
Hank:
Hiker Daddy:
... It is also a fiction that the United States is in any danger of needing to import most of our food. The United States is an agricultural powerhouse and we show no signs of slowing. We are the world's largest producer of food. It is pure fiction to say that public grazing in the desert has any connection to our food stability.
I wish I could go into more detail, but becuase of where I work and what I do, I can't without giving myself away. I stand by my comments as to what the long term goal appears to be.
Hank, I am not going to ask you to out yourself by giving info from where you work. What I said is supported by the fact that there has been an agricultural trade surplus in the US and that surplus is growing. LINK
There are threats to US agriculture and I am concerned but so far nothing seems to be stopping the US ag machine.
I do think we should do something about international agreements like the NAFTA, The WTO, and the proposed TPP. These agreements could undermine US agriculture by giving further advantage to nations with cheap labor. I don't know if that is what you are talking about. LINK It makes sense to be concerned.
Right wingers are pushing hard for these agreements and they are oddly aligned with Obama. Cargill industries (Koch brothers) loves the TPP because they process food and want it made cheaply and Obama favors the TPP as well. His rationale doesn't make sense to me but his zeal for trade agreements is strong. Cheap food is more important to a lot of people than US farms. That said, the US has landed on top so far. I would love to see the TPP go down in flames. I would love to see NAFTA tossed out the window.
But I am a bit off topic because I am pretty damn sure ending those agreements wouldn't make ranching in the sagebrush sustainable. Ranching in sagebrush has never been sustainable and therein lies the problem for eastern Oregon and for the Bundy's of Nevada.
It's too dry for cattle production at any sustainable scale.
A lot of communities in the West are dying and they are lashing out at whoever is closest that doesn't dress and talk like them. There is a dispute over how the Hammonds burned some land and a dispute over who should pay for fences in the Steens Mountains but those issues are distractions from the fact that the lifestyle in Harney County, Oregon is dying fairly quickly from the cold fact that deserts don't support ranching for long. Government workers in Harney County are largely college educated and not born in Harney County yet they still draw a pay check while old guard ranchers work hard just to barely stay afloat. Some of them go bankrupt even with cheap grazing permits. It doesn't seem fair but it doesn't change the fact that cattle production in the desertcan't compete. That is true across most of Nevada where the Bundy's angst bred. Their lifestyle is dying and Captain Moroni can't save them. Neither can their stack of guns.
I agree with most of what you said. It has been becoming more difficult to farm/ranch over the decades and soon it will be even more difficult with EPA regs that are on their way. They will put a heavy regulatory burden on the family farm, which will increase costs. The feeling among many high level folks is that the feds believe that ag is destructive to the environment and environment trumps all. The way the regs are coming gives the thought credence in my mind.
If I were to think more like a liberal, I guess I would suspect that the regs are meant to put the family farm out of business and concentrate ag into the hands of factory farms.
I also see that if farmers/ranchers took the environment more seriously (this of course, varies greatly) there wouldn't be so much pressure put on them. I hear "you guys from the damned government" waaayyy too much here in Utah. In some areas in nowheresville we prefer to take vehicles w/o the state emblem...less likely to be shot at. One co-worker showed up at a family farm to enforce some minor reg. There stood several fellers, a backhoe and a hole in the ground. The farmer told my co-worker that his state car would fit perfectly into the hole and no one would be able to find it. He left (good move).
Difficult topic overall. Joe farmer, Western Americana, USDA, state DofAg, EPA, FDA, BLM, numerous special interest groups, ethanol, oil, corporations, economies of scale, congress, the environment, water and the list goes on.
Posted: 15 January 2016 08:35 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 56 ]
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son of perdition
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Hank:
son of perdition:
Ask yourself how you felt as a Mormon when out siders judged you as being just like the FLDS? The Bundys and Hammonds are only two families.
Being judged by the most radical elements in a group is not only unfair but wrong. I don't think the rancher has a fair chance of having their concerns really heard. Lets paint them all with one bush and demonize them like we did the native inhabitants who were here first. That's how it works.
We are fast becoming stupid as to where we get our resources. At some point, if we keep whittling away at our land taking it out of cultivation and use we are going to be dependent on foreign sources for our food timber minerals and other resources.
The government was required by law to fence the refuge but they didn't. Is it ok for our federal goverment to not follow through. The feds violated the law. They should be held to law just as the common citizen. We all know that when it comes to the law we have to abide by it. When the federal goverment or it's agents break the law they set a bad example for citizen who them think they are also just in breaking law. Ask the "Indian" who first held the land about the fairness of the Feds.
It makes us feel like we did the right thing to broaden a wildlife refuge. We are fast becoimg more concerned about animals than we are people.
I think the Bundys and Hammonds were and are misguided in their actions. The sources of income in Eastern Oregon are few. We can't turn the entire world into a tourist destination.
The belief among many agriculture departments throughout the country is that it is the federal government's unstated goal to stop agricuture in the USA and import all food...for environmental reasons. Many of the policies coming from D.C. point to this. The only other beneficiary (but with added costs) will be factory farms.
Almost all of the new regs make it harder for a family to farm the back 40 while staying in compliance and keeping it profitable. The type of regs that I'm involved with, even California is completely against them (all of them), and CA is by far the most restrictive state and first to get onboard with federal regulations.
My brother works for BLM as a range manager. I don't want to out myself either.
Posted: 15 January 2016 08:47 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 57 ]
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son of perdition
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The Federal Govenment has plans for turning half of Malhuer County into a National Monument. The county next door. I have mixed feeings about this. I'm not sure that it is really what is best for the enviroment. It will bring a great deal of development. And that is what happens when we stop logging and grazing livestock. The place gets further developed. I am against further development. This is my backyard from where I was raised. I don't want a park. The place is awesome the way it is now.
http://www.oregonlive.com/travel/index.ssf/2015/10/owyhee_canyonlands_focus_of_fu.html
Posted: 15 January 2016 10:06 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 58 ]
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josephs myth
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I waited all week long to learn this?
http://m.nydailynews.com/news/national/max-temkin-sends-oregon-militia-group-lube-article-1.2498179
You gotta be kidding me!
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/01/oregon_standoff_day_14_what_yo.html
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_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
Posted: 15 January 2016 10:52 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 59 ]
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Has an ISIS sympathizer who says he would like to see ISIS bomb Israel and illegally hacks computers joined the crazy Bundy band?
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/01/13/1469296/-Oregon-standoff-has-new-member-who-s-a-hacker-ISIS-sympathizer-and-lover-of-Nazis-VIDEO?detail=email
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 15 January 2016 02:30 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 60 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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son of perdition:
The Federal Govenment has plans for turning half of Malhuer County into a National Monument. The county next door. I have mixed feeings about this. I'm not sure that it is really what is best for the enviroment. It will bring a great deal of development. And that is what happens when we stop logging and grazing livestock. The place gets further developed. I am against further development. This is my backyard from where I was raised. I don't want a park. The place is awesome the way it is now.
http://www.oregonlive.com/travel/index.ssf/2015/10/owyhee_canyonlands_focus_of_fu.html
This is really hard to say. As far as I can tell, there is a coalition of environmental groups pushing for a national monument and wilderness designation, but nothing from the Obama administration or Congress (wilderness designations require an act of Congress).
I found an interesting article in Energy and Environment that describes Harney County as a location where rancher and the feds have worked together cooperatively for about the last decade. http://www.eenews.net/stories/1060030565
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Posted: 15 January 2016 03:50 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 61 ]
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josephs myth
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An almost world focus like this is generating attention to the LDS church and consequently spinning up some reviews and reevaluations on what is badly flawed in Mormonism too.
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/8991496
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-Nothing beats a failure like a try
_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
Posted: 16 January 2016 08:55 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 62 ]
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son of perdition
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Hiker Daddy:
son of perdition:
Ask yourself how you felt as a Mormon when out siders judged you as being just like the FLDS? The Bundys and Hammonds are only two families.
Being judged by the most radical elements in a group is not only unfair but wrong. I don't think the rancher has a fair chance of having their concerns really heard. Lets paint them all with one bush and demonize them like we did the native inhabitants who were here first. That's how it works.
We are fast becoming stupid as to where we get our resources. At some point, if we keep whittling away at our land taking it out of cultivation and use we are going to be dependent on foreign sources for our food timber minerals and other resources.
The government was required by law to fence the refuge but they didn't. Is it ok for our federal goverment to not follow through. The feds violated the law. They should be held to law just as the common citizen. We all know that when it comes to the law we have to abide by it. When the federal goverment or it's agents break the law they set a bad example for citizen who them think they are also just in breaking law. Ask the "Indian" who first held the land about the fairness of the Feds.
It makes us feel like we did the right thing to broaden a wildlife refuge. We are fast becoimg more concerned about animals than we are people.
I think the Bundys and Hammonds were and are misguided in their actions. The sources of income in Eastern Oregon are few. We can't afford to turn the entire planet into a tourist destination. The citizens in Eastern Oregon know that money is really only paper and resources come directly from the land and it's use. You can't print more potatoes.
Being judged for the most radical elements of a group is unfair and wrong. However, this thread started out as a critique of the Bundys and somewhere along the way somebody hijacked the thread and made it about the plight of ranchers in the desert. That said, I am interested their plight as well.
I lived quite a while in eastern Oregon and I like the place. The people are good people. I don't have a long term solution and I don't think they do either. They lash out at the government. I think the solutions start with losing our addiction to cowboy nostalgia. The good ole days were never all that good.
..... I think it's stupid to think that any substantial amount of beef has ever come from the sagebrush country of the West. Most beef comes from places where it rains and Oregon is a good example. They raise more grass fed beef in the single town of Tillamook than the millions of acres of eastern desert. It rains in western Oregon, grass grows, and cattle eat it. the midwest is a beef machine and has been since before the rise of factory farms
Most beef comes from feed lots. We may not like that fact but we are fast becoming stupid enough to ignore it. I don't like feed lots but I am not going to pretend beef comes sagebrush. It doesn't come sagebrush country and it never has. They subsidize corn farms in the midwest where it rains and they feed it to cattle. Even without corn subsidies, Harney County can't compete with places where it rains.
I feel for the people of eastern Oregon because like you said, their resources are few and getting fewer. In the recent past they were able to use the feds as a resource and in recent years congress cut funds for land use agencies. Land use agencies used to offer more contracts to build fences and roads but the money is drying up. I find it sad and frustrating that the politicians that complain the feds didn't build those fencees in the Steens are the same politicians that cut funding for environmental purposes like fences to keep cows out of refuges. To a degree the ranchers have always depended on federal contracts to build fences and other forms of subsidized land upkeep.
The angst in eastern Oregon is understandable and it's about a dying lifestyle. However, long term solutions shouldn't be based on fictions. It's a fiction that Harney County can compete in today's beef market. It's a fiction that cattle ranching in the desert has ever been sustainable without overgrazing and/or government subsidies.
... It is also a fiction that the United States is in any danger of needing to import most of our food. The United States is an agricultural powerhouse and we show no signs of slowing. We are the world's largest producer of food. It is pure fiction to say that public grazing in the desert has any connection to our food stability.
We are covering up our best farm land with houses and the US is not the number 1 producer of food. China is number 1. Most of the valley where I grew up is filled with houses. When I was a kid it was all farms.
http://stockmarketnotes.blogspot.com/2011/04/which-country-is-worlds-largest-food.html
What about quality of life? I remember when a company was judged by the wages and benefits it provided. Communities valued companies that offered a great quality of life. Now it seems that the only important matter is the bootom line when it comes to it's stock value.
I have seen where the government wants to log and area and they will claim that it is only a minor percentage of elk habitat. It's only 2 percent of the elk's habitat. So no big deal. If you dig deeper you find that it's 2 percent of the elk habitat state wide but it is 85 percent of the elk habitat in the local area. Two very different pictures.
Posted: 16 January 2016 12:47 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 63 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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son of perdition:
Hiker Daddy:
son of perdition:
Ask yourself how you felt as a Mormon when out siders judged you as being just like the FLDS? The Bundys and Hammonds are only two families.
Being judged by the most radical elements in a group is not only unfair but wrong. I don't think the rancher has a fair chance of having their concerns really heard. Lets paint them all with one bush and demonize them like we did the native inhabitants who were here first. That's how it works.
We are fast becoming stupid as to where we get our resources. At some point, if we keep whittling away at our land taking it out of cultivation and use we are going to be dependent on foreign sources for our food timber minerals and other resources.
The government was required by law to fence the refuge but they didn't. Is it ok for our federal goverment to not follow through. The feds violated the law. They should be held to law just as the common citizen. We all know that when it comes to the law we have to abide by it. When the federal goverment or it's agents break the law they set a bad example for citizen who them think they are also just in breaking law. Ask the "Indian" who first held the land about the fairness of the Feds.
It makes us feel like we did the right thing to broaden a wildlife refuge. We are fast becoimg more concerned about animals than we are people.
I think the Bundys and Hammonds were and are misguided in their actions. The sources of income in Eastern Oregon are few. We can't afford to turn the entire planet into a tourist destination. The citizens in Eastern Oregon know that money is really only paper and resources come directly from the land and it's use. You can't print more potatoes.
Being judged for the most radical elements of a group is unfair and wrong. However, this thread started out as a critique of the Bundys and somewhere along the way somebody hijacked the thread and made it about the plight of ranchers in the desert. That said, I am interested their plight as well.
I lived quite a while in eastern Oregon and I like the place. The people are good people. I don't have a long term solution and I don't think they do either. They lash out at the government. I think the solutions start with losing our addiction to cowboy nostalgia. The good ole days were never all that good.
..... I think it's stupid to think that any substantial amount of beef has ever come from the sagebrush country of the West. Most beef comes from places where it rains and Oregon is a good example. They raise more grass fed beef in the single town of Tillamook than the millions of acres of eastern desert. It rains in western Oregon, grass grows, and cattle eat it. the midwest is a beef machine and has been since before the rise of factory farms
Most beef comes from feed lots. We may not like that fact but we are fast becoming stupid enough to ignore it. I don't like feed lots but I am not going to pretend beef comes sagebrush. It doesn't come sagebrush country and it never has. They subsidize corn farms in the midwest where it rains and they feed it to cattle. Even without corn subsidies, Harney County can't compete with places where it rains.
I feel for the people of eastern Oregon because like you said, their resources are few and getting fewer. In the recent past they were able to use the feds as a resource and in recent years congress cut funds for land use agencies. Land use agencies used to offer more contracts to build fences and roads but the money is drying up. I find it sad and frustrating that the politicians that complain the feds didn't build those fencees in the Steens are the same politicians that cut funding for environmental purposes like fences to keep cows out of refuges. To a degree the ranchers have always depended on federal contracts to build fences and other forms of subsidized land upkeep.
The angst in eastern Oregon is understandable and it's about a dying lifestyle. However, long term solutions shouldn't be based on fictions. It's a fiction that Harney County can compete in today's beef market. It's a fiction that cattle ranching in the desert has ever been sustainable without overgrazing and/or government subsidies.
... It is also a fiction that the United States is in any danger of needing to import most of our food. The United States is an agricultural powerhouse and we show no signs of slowing. We are the world's largest producer of food. It is pure fiction to say that public grazing in the desert has any connection to our food stability.
We are covering up our best farm land with houses and the US is not the number 1 producer of food. China is number 1. Most of the valley where I grew up is filled with houses. When I was a kid it was all farms.
http://stockmarketnotes.blogspot.com/2011/04/which-country-is-worlds-largest-food.html
What about quality of life? I remember when a company was judged by the wages and benefits it provided. Communities valued companies that offered a great quality of life. Now it seems that the only important matter is the bootom line when it comes to it's stock value.
I have seen where the government wants to log and area and they will claim that it is only a minor percentage of elk habitat. It's only 2 percent of the elk's habitat. So no big deal. If you dig deeper you find that it's 2 percent of the elk habitat state wide but it is 85 percent of the elk habitat in the local area. Two very different pictures.
But isn't that just an example of the balancing act the feds have to perform. When it comes to these federal lands, the loggers want to cut down trees, the ranchers want to graze cattle, the miners want to mine, hunters want to hunt, hikers want to hike, atv-ers want to drive, horse owners want to ride, environmentalist want to preserve, business owners want to attract tourists. And history has shown that if someone isn't managing the land, people will try to do all of the above and ruin the land.
The transformation of farms to houses has nothing to do with the government owning land. That's the market working. Tons of farms in my area have been replaced by housing and commercial development because that's what the market dictates. Local control of the land does nothing to stop that. If someone wants to pay more than a farm is worth when it is being farmed, it gets developed into a subdivision.
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Mormon Millennials
Posted: 11 January 2016 08:28 AM [ Ignore ]
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josephs myth
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Really... I mean, really? I have no idea why the LDS church (small C) might want to dare and bring up the topic.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865645244/President-Russell-M-Nelson-Becoming-true-millennials.html
Now for the real honesty.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fn5Hcs1PunE
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Posted: 11 January 2016 08:47 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Sheesh! Yet another reminder(to me) of why the 'Deserted' News never got much usage in the faculty room lounge.
Posted: 11 January 2016 08:51 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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josephs myth
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former victim:
Sheesh! Yet another reminder(to me) of why the 'Deserted' News never got much usage in the faculty room lounge.
Tis okay I guess, others can pick it up and maybe finish the far from incompleteness of the article.
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Posted: 12 January 2016 10:28 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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What a charming nostalgia that gives me! It's the same speech that I heard over and over as a young person in the early 1920s. ()
We were reminded over and over what a special generation we were, saved until "this dispensation of the fullness of times" to come forth and prepare the world for the Second Coming, which was imminent as heck and right on that tipping point of getting ready to start any minute now. We were saved for that era because we were so astonishingly valiant in the premortal existence, wavering not a jot nor a tittle but being eternally steadfast in the truth of the everlasting... BLAH BLAH BLAH
To my shame, I admit, I sucked it up. I was so convinced that I was worthless--I didn't meet Spencer W. Kimball's definition of righteousness, after all, and almost daily was committing sins second only to murder--that any hint of being "valiant" or "noble" was irresistible to me. I totally swallowed that "I must be special" bait.
It made me feel even worse as I realized that where I once had been so damned valiant that God himself winked while giving me a thumbs-up, on this particular and mortal plane I was just another flawed human, fit to be spat out.
Russel M. Nelson has dusted off those old speeches, adding some updated wording, and POOF! The next generation is now being enticed with the same bullshit that I swallowed decades earlier, desperate for some reason to believe that I might be in the upper half of the human curve.
Watch out, Millennials: You're being offered used bait!
Posted: 12 January 2016 11:44 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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josephs myth
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Celestial Wedgie:
What a charming nostalgia that gives me! It's the same speech that I heard over and over as a young person in the early 1920s. ()
We were reminded over and over what a special generation we were, saved until "this dispensation of the fullness of times" to come forth and prepare the world for the Second Coming, which was imminent as heck and right on that tipping point of getting ready to start any minute now. We were saved for that era because we were so astonishingly valiant in the premortal existence, wavering not a jot nor a tittle but being eternally steadfast in the truth of the everlasting... BLAH BLAH BLAH
To my shame, I admit, I sucked it up. I was so convinced that I was worthless--I didn't meet Spencer W. Kimball's definition of righteousness, after all, and almost daily was committing sins second only to murder--that any hint of being "valiant" or "noble" was irresistible to me. I totally swallowed that "I must be special" bait.
It made me feel even worse as I realized that where I once had been so damned valiant that God himself winked while giving me a thumbs-up, on this particular and mortal plane I was just another flawed human, fit to be spat out.
Russel M. Nelson has dusted off those old speeches, adding some updated wording, and POOF! The next generation is now being enticed with the same bullshit that I swallowed decades earlier, desperate for some reason to believe that I might be in the upper half of the human curve.
Watch out, Millennials: You're being offered used bait!
Millennials use Google.
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Posted: 12 January 2016 03:58 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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josephs myth:
Celestial Wedgie:
[snip]
Watch out, Millennials: You're being offered used bait!
Millennials use Google.
I certainly hope so. Life is already pretty hard; there's no need to make it needlessly worse.
Google-forth, Millennials!
Posted: 13 January 2016 05:30 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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My four kids are "Millennials"---From my experience with my kids, I am not sure the Church leadership understands the forces driving these kids. If EN, and the likes, think this type of propaganda will work on the Millennials, then the Church will be doomed to loose this generation.
The leadership of the Church has a huge ego problem. They are like that one friend in high school that is the "know-it-all" No one can know more than he/she, and ultimately they get left behind---everyone else moves on.
I use to be concerned about how to get my kids out of the Church, now I realize that I just need to sit back and watch the church lesadership do it for me
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Posted: 13 January 2016 06:52 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Celestial Wedgie
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WinstonSmith:
My four kids are "Millennials"---From my experience with my kids, I am not sure the Church leadership understands the forces driving these kids. If EN, and the likes, think this type of propaganda will work on the Millennials, then the Church will be doomed to loose this generation.
The leadership of the Church has a huge ego problem. They are like that one friend in high school that is the "know-it-all" No one can know more than he/she, and ultimately they get left behind---everyone else moves on.
I use to be concerned about how to get my kids out of the Church, now I realize that I just need to sit back and watch the church lesadership do it for me
So much truth in this. Let it unfold as it will.
Evil Thought: I wonder if one could hasten the exit by sifting through LDS leaders' talks, picking those that are most dated and unintentionally egregious. Then simply forward them to the kids as quasi-support.
Posted: 13 January 2016 07:05 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Same old HORSESHIT, just a different penishood fossil and a different year. I can remember as my kids were growing up in the morg, they would be bombarded with this HORSESHIT regularly.
Posted: 13 January 2016 07:15 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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josephs myth
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maynardg:
Same old HORSESHIT, just a different penishood fossil and a different year. I can remember as my kids were growing up in the morg, they would be bombarded with this HORSESHIT regularly.
((I just hope college-age Millennials, who tend to be "over" the culture wars, shuffle the Boomer theocrats and racists into the nursing homes where they belong.))
From the comment section way way back in a 2011 article in the NY Times describing The Book Of Mormon Broadway hit by Trey Parker and Matt Stone.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/03/27/opinion/27dowd.html?referer=
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Pretty disappointed in this forum…
Posted: 07 January 2016 07:24 PM [ Ignore ]
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Hello everyone. I am an ex-Mormon. I grew up in the chuch, served a mission in South Korea, was an Assistant to the President, post mission I served in a variety of callings and was active in the church most of my adult life. I also struggled off and on with an addiction, and it wasn't until getting outside help with 12 step groups and therapy that I realized the LDS faith didn't have a monopoly on God's power and was even doing things for addicts that were making it harder and worse for them.
I left the Church mindfully and and peacefully as I got clean. I always had doubts about the Church's origins and the historical aspects of the Church, but I took them on faith. Now I am more free and true to my base character.
I have been looking for a community of exmormons who were focused on transitioning into "normal" life and healing from the indocrination and shame being in the Church brings. Basically ex-LDS members who shared their strength and hope as they transitioned out.
Someone recommended this site to me. After reading the mission statement, the rules and some of the exit stories, this seemed to be the place.
The mission of the Post-Mormon Community is to provide a safe and supportive environment for people struggling with their Mormon beliefs, or who have left the Mormon Church. We accomplish that mission by connecting people who have years of experience outside the church with those first discovering they have the wings to explore the myriad of questions, ideas, feelings, hurts and new discoveries as they explore life beyond Mormonism. When considering what is and is not appropriate content for this site (including choice of username, avatar, the content of forum posts, images used, and the on-line treatment of other community members), ask yourself, "Does this contribute to the mission of Post-Mormon.org?" If the answer is "yes", then it is probably appropriate content for this site.
You can imagine my disappointment when thread after thread on this site was just like all the other anti-mormon sites; Trite and vindictive in tone, with members like the antagonistically named "Josephs Myths" spamming multiple threads of multiple attacks and derision that only serve to bring down and make fun of the Church.
I totally get that there are a lot of people who did not leave the Church happily and have an axe to grind. But I already left. I don't need to be sold on why the Church isn't true. It's over for me. I'm done. I'm also happier and at greater peace now and looking to learn and grow in my new life. I want to learn about coffee and craft beer and discuss spirituality and healing beyond the exlutionary dogma I grew up with. I want more points of view.
I am unsure how ripping on the Church is helpful, healing or going to make us better. How does attacking a religion with sarcastic comments make for better post-Mormons? How exactly does that "contribute to the mission of Post-Mormon.org?" I am finding that with most of these communities, that is norm: pissed off ex-Mormons who HATE the Church and spend lot of time and energy railing on it. I would suggest those persons aren't at peace with things and need counseling and healing to move past it.
An honest plea: Is there a community for ex-Mormons who don't hate the Church and just want to move on and talk? I would really like to meet more people like that. I'm in a wonderful place, personally. I've grown and learned so much. I want to share what I see now and continue to grow without the anger or smearing. Recommendations would be appreciated.
Thanks. And sorry if this post comes off as disapointed, but I was.
Posted: 07 January 2016 07:27 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Just remember, none of us are perfect. Perhaps the fit isn't quite right. No Worries.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 07 January 2016 07:40 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Glad to see another South Korea alum. I was in Seoul mission '92–'94. There are a few of us around.
As to whether it's healthy to rail against the church, I guess it depends on the individual and their circumstances. In general I think the Mormon church is vulnerable enough and sensitive enough to public outcry that it actually can make a difference when we speak up. So I'm not bothered by that stuff in general. But I agree there are some voices in any group that are more deserving of my time and attention than others. I've made good use of the hide function this site offers for those individuals. Welcome to the forum.
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Posted: 07 January 2016 08:18 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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dave (e_nomo)
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Thanks for your post, DenverDude.
I understand why some posts may be off-putting for you. You are past the point (or were never at the point) of anger and hurt. Leaving mormonism can be quick and easy for some, or slow and agonizing for others. There are so many variables, it's impossible to chart a best or typical way out.
For many, discovering the church is not what it claims to be is painful and heart-wrenching. For some, the feelings of betrayal and having been fooled can't just be ignored. People find release and catharsis in sharing their feelings. You yourself took the time to share your disappointment, so you understand on some level how that works and how it feels.
Some people come here and express the anger and resentment that they never were able to in real life. They say things here they never dared before. They find others who understand and commiserate. We would never want to silence them. They are tired of being silenced.
This may or may not be the place you were hoping to find. If you're game, I suggest starting a thread about coffee or craft beer. We've had many such threads and I can almost guarantee you will get a boatload of replies - people seem to have some very strong opinions on their java and brew.
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Posted: 07 January 2016 08:34 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
DenverDude
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I want to be clear that my post wasn't too suggest that I think the Church is abbove reproach or criticism.
And I was hurt by some of the Church's policies, though some were because they didn't know any better. Indeed, their actions toward homosexuals, homosexual families, their approach toward addiction (just say a prayer and fast and I'll put my hands on your head it'll go away on its own!), sexuality (sex is next to murder! Now go have sex now that you're married!) and the way they disfellowship and excommunicate members is hurtful, shame-causing and is making their issues worse, not better.
I just don't get the fifty sarcastic, name-calling threads for every little thing the Church does. There were threads criticizing actually positive things the Church was doing. Catharsis and feeling sharing is one thing. Hate mongoring and bullying do NOT heal and do not help anyone get past things.
I guess I was hoping for more acclimatizing-themed threads about getting away from the Church and making friends. Keeping your old Mormon friends - all those kinds of things. I'm like a total idiot. I went with some friends and they were making fun of me because I didn't know how to pour a beer! They were kind about it but it's like "What do I do with myself now?" kind of thing I'm looking for help with.
Posted: 07 January 2016 10:51 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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DenverDude:
I want to be clear that my post wasn't too suggest that I think the Church is abbove reproach or criticism.
And I was hurt by some of the Church's policies, though some were because they didn't know any better. Indeed, their actions toward homosexuals, homosexual families, their approach toward addiction (just say a prayer and fast and I'll put my hands on your head it'll go away on its own!), sexuality (sex is next to murder! Now go have sex now that you're married!) and the way they disfellowship and excommunicate members is hurtful, shame-causing and is making their issues worse, not better.
I just don't get the fifty sarcastic, name-calling threads for every little thing the Church does. There were threads criticizing actually positive things the Church was doing. Catharsis and feeling sharing is one thing. Hate mongoring and bullying do NOT heal and do not help anyone get past things.
I guess I was hoping for more acclimatizing-themed threads about getting away from the Church and making friends. Keeping your old Mormon friends - all those kinds of things. I'm like a total idiot. I went with some friends and they were making fun of me because I didn't know how to pour a beer! They were kind about it but it's like "What do I do with myself now?" kind of thing I'm looking for help with.
You can find that kind of thing here, if you just ask.
I understand and what you are saying. The thing is, none of us really knows the best way to transition out of Mormonism. Different people need different things. So, we tend to let people post whatever they need to post. And some people seem to neEd to post negative things about the LDS church. That's okay here. For some folks, this is the only safe place they can do that.
It doesn't sound like you need that. It sounds like you are more interested in "what's next?" Personally, that's the topic I find most interesting here. And I'm not alone.
So, what would you like to talk about? By the way, Don't let anyone intimidate you about how to pour a beer. Lots of people think beer should be poured in a way that minimizes the "head." Nonsense! Part of the pleasure of drinking a beer is the head.
So, what I'm saying is give us a shot. We're a pretty good group of folks. And we'd be happy to talk about what's next. Just ask away!
Oh, and please excuse my manners. Welcome to postmormon.org!
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Posted: 08 January 2016 12:14 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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josephs myth
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Hi DenverDude,
We'll never ever tell you what to say. PostMormon is all about saying what you want. Once you're around for about five or ten years you'll see that's true. Right now Mormonism really doesn't seem to like all of the attention paid to the careful examinations being carried out by folks exactly like yourself. I don't expect this current trend to last forever.
Thank you for speaking up. I understand where you are coming from, it's just that the Mormon church (smalll C) is a smashing success at staying in the headlines for quite a while now and yes, it is very very tiring in some ways.
Denver had the broadway performance called, The Book Of Mormon, you may have missed it I bet.
We are all with you though and will see what we can do about it. But if Mormonism does something really really silly I may have to post something new, sorry bout that. hehehe...
The MeetUp is really where everything perk's well, sometimes the forums act partially as maybe a staging area for that to begin. Maybe we should try and inform more of the new peeps about that, I don't know.
Anyhow, thanks again for speaking up.
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Posted: 08 January 2016 05:11 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Dovolente
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Welcome, DenverDude! Best of luck with your transition.
And I can understand your sentiments about the forum. After being around for many years (the first few as an anonymous lurker), I find that there can be some active and enthusiastic participants who seem to set the general tone at times, and if that tone isn't the one the works for you it can make the forums less inviting.
But I've found, too, that there are consistent voices here that are worth their weight in gold (er... worth gold, anyway!). There are some really great and supporting people in this community, and people have posted some amazing resources that I wouldn't have found on my own. Above all, I've appreciated the great advice and empathetic commiseration when I've shared some of the challenges of my and my family's situation.
Anyway, I encourage you to stick around and skim/skip as desired, or come back in a while when the tone has changed more to your liking. I'm sure it'll be worth your while!
Posted: 08 January 2016 07:11 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
jellybean
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My husband and I left easily and peacefully. I can honestly say I have no anger towards the church or members because I can see it from both sides. When I was active and in I really believed everything and I give everyone who stays the benefit of the doubt that what they do they do because they still truly believe it's the right thing. Some of those things might annoy me, but they don't offend me.
That said, I like to have a forum like this where it is safe to talk about oddities or things we noticed that are specific to the church. For example, my thread about Mormon speak. It's not meant to bash or belittle anyone, but was just an observation that was made after being out of the church that I found interesting and wanted to talk about.
When you are out you can only talk about some of the funny cultural or doctional things with others who are out. It's not because you hate church members, or even the church, it's just that only people who have also left can understand it from the same point of view. I certianly wouldn't be able to bring up cultural oddities with my member friends without them being offended.
At any rate, like others have said, I think you can find what you are looking for here if you want to. You could even add posts that start the topics you want to see. I think you will be surprised to learn that many of us here are similar to you.
Posted: 08 January 2016 07:26 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
Hank
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I've been around on this forum for about a year. First forum I ever did. Here's some thoughts:
-For many people, learning the truth about the church is like finding out that your spouse has been cheating on you since before you got married. SOme people get over it fast and move on. Others need more time to work through it. This often involves talking about it, sometimes excessively, and in not-so-nice terms. No one would ever say about their cheating ex "Well, they say she was a great screw." They say more like "I was busting my ass at work while she was..."
-Some of the people here, IMO, view the posting of many links and many comments as a way of "fighting the man". This is how they feel like they can help others recover from, or maybe help prevent, the hurt caused by church membership.
-Some personalities just click, other not so much. On any forum, on any topic, you will find people that you find more interesting, or more revolting. Ignore those you don't like, read those you do like.
-Many people can leave the church easily, others not so much because of spouses and children that continue to believe. This causes much stress in the mind of an exmo, while preventing them from fully getting over it. I think many of the regulars here have TBM spouses, so this is just about the only place they can get their frustrations out.
-If you're over having been a Mormon and have moved on, but want to learn about specific "regular society" topics like beer & java, go to sites that cater to those interests. Tastes vary among exmos the same as everyone else. Finding out which beer a particular exmo prefers doesn't mean you'll like it.
-Finally, best wishes on your new journey, and welcome.
Posted: 08 January 2016 07:54 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
peace out
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I understand what you’re saying and must agree you have a point.
If you look at Mormon Stories pod cast they interview several groups Like Oasis and others that are looking into how to build community outside of a church structure, take a listen.
I found it interesting I hope you do also. They even do and interview with the current FLDS prophet. Wow not going to see Mormon Church granting interviews like that any time soon.
Posted: 08 January 2016 07:57 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
moronie-balonie
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I was extremely angry when I first found out that my church had lied to me my whole life. I am sure that when I first started posting that anger came out in a lot of my comments. It still shows once in awhile, because I still have loved ones who are heavily involved in the church and it is painful for me to see them being hurt. I cannot just walk away from the church because I am forced to deal with it on a daily basis. This causes continued frustration for me. Sarcasm is one of the ways that I am able to voice my frustration.
As for the "antagonistic" names, you should find the old thread about how people came up with their names. There are some good stories.
Posted: 08 January 2016 08:00 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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maynardg
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Welcome Denver-dude. Perhaps your escape from the morg was a mild mannered escape and people have left you alone. But for me, after being deceived by the morg for 57 years(most of my adult life) I was hurt and really pissed(how could I have allowed the morg to deceive/manipulate me for that long and I didn't have a clue) Unlike some on this forum, my escape was easy -- wrote my family an email detailing why I was leaving the church; wrote my Bishop(he was a cool guy) that I wanted my name removed from the church(sent info forward the same day that I wrote him without wanting to try and change my mind) and two months later -- no longer a member of the morg -- PRICELESS! My family was really non-commital about my leaving the church(I have a older daughter who left and a son who is semi-active) and the members of the ward are still friendly but have left me alone(from some of the stories I've read both family and members have become morg ^#*holes once you tell them AMFIAG!). I've also read stories about family members who have learned for themselves that the morg is built upon the foundation of a stinking pile of HORSESHIT and apologize for being such pricks about it. And there are plenty who read and respond on this forum who are still fighting the morg coma but because of the implications for family and marriages they are continuing their double lives(my heart goes out to those folks).
A really great aspect of this forum is it allows those of us who are really pissed because of the morg's deceptions to vent/rant/rage(I like Shrek's philosophy -- better out than in) and I can tell you it has been therapeutic to get support and positive feedback as you go through the healing from all the manipulation shit the morg has put many people through.
You don't know how I wish there was a book -- "Morg Healing for Dummies" so that there would be guidelines in the healing process. So far it doesn't exist and so we have forums like this where people like myself can hear/tell others -- been there/done that and this is how I cope. After a year of participating on this forum, I can say that my healing although not complete is much better than it was and every once in a while I read a story that gets those angry juices flowing again.
That's my $1 worth. But one last thing -- different strokes for different folks -- maybe you need a different forum. I have read at least four other forums and this is my home and I'm glad I've found somewhere to help me heal from the morg's shitty manipulations.
Posted: 08 January 2016 08:09 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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son of perdition
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DenverDude. I stopped going to church back in the early 80's. I was very angry at the church but even so I would defend it when other people put it down. I did this for at least a couple decades. For me this was a stage in leaving the church. I have come to realize that few if anyone completely leaves all at once. Before I stopped going to church. , I mentally left by realizing how illogical the doctrine of the church is. Next I physically left. I am still working on my emotional component. I still feel stuck emotionally. I believe this is because my extended family on both my side and my wife side are still true blue mormons; so I feel I can never escape. They are always there to reinforce Mormon thinking and ways. My point is that we leave in stages. It is easy to be offended when people knock Mormonism if you are attached to it. Most of us here have a heavy investment in the church and it can sting when someone reminds us of our past commitment to Mormonism and how much we gave to it.
I went through a stage where I posted the ugliest and most offensive stuff I could possibly find. This helped me vent and move through anger of feeling raped and violated by the church, it's members and teachings. I am thankful that this forum put up with me. At times you will see some shocking stuff posted here. Just realize that person is hurting and angry and there is no need to take it personally.
Welcome; and this is a great place to talk about your issues.
Posted: 08 January 2016 08:12 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
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maynardg
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Another thing that just came to me. When I taught Family Relationships/Divorce and Remarriage, the question about healing always came up -- how long does it take to heal from a broken relationship/marriage? My response was always -- it is going to take as long as it takes. There are some people who don't like that response -- too pessimistic, they say. Well, it is not as if you can write a date in your date book and say on such and such a day I will be rehabilitated from all the shitty manipulations of the morg. Let's take just one thing -- masturbation. Many of us who were dyed in the wool TBM felt evil because we masturbated and some even after they say to the morg AMFIAG still feel evil. Why should we let the morg continue to beat us when joseph "pinnochio" smith, a profit, seer, revelator and god's right hand man couldn't keep it in his pants and bringem young wasn't any better. And when you are no longer a morgbot and everyone else is -- that makes it just that much more interesting when it comes to rehabilitation from the morg.
Posted: 08 January 2016 08:55 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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Welcome, DenverDude. Stick around for a bit, you'll find that we're not always spitting nails around here!
This link has a nice little explanation of why there is sometimes anger on this site. From my own perspecitve, I vascillate between angry and civil. And to be honest, it reflects the treatment I receive from believing members who find out I no longer believe - their responses and the way they treat me runs the gamut from disdain to civility and all points in between.
You've probably heard the old saw from the pulpit, "They can leave the church but they can't leave the church alone." Well to be honest, many of us have experienced exactly the opposite. We can leave the church, but the church won't leave us alone! We ask them, respectfully, to leave us alone but they don't. Does this result in anger, resentment, cynicisim and even mockery? You bet it does! Where do we vent? Here. We don't want to offend those who won't leave us alone, so we unload here. It happens.
But there are a ton of good discussions here. I learned so much here, and now I like to share what I've learned with others. Do I still get mad? Absolutely. 90% of my family and extended family are still believers. There's a lot of passive-aggresive behavior that happens. My believing wife is not kind when she talks about my disbelief. She addresses it with utter disdain. I keep my mouth shut around her, but I do come here to vent on occasion. It's funny, I'll go months without venting, and sometimes I even think that I'm over it, but then something sets me off and ... well, you get the picture.
Anyway, we'd still love your input. We never know when something we say can have an effect on someone else, so please, feel free to participate.
(For the record, I think Joseph's Myth is a clever name! The church is, after all, one big myth.)
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You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler
Posted: 08 January 2016 09:52 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
Free2Live
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Welcome to postmormon DenverDude! It is awesome that you stand on your own feet and speak your mind. Tell it like you see it and tell it like it is. My perspective on life includes that speech is thinking outloud. Thanks for sharing a part of your life with us.
Appointment:
- an agreement to meet with someone at a particular time
- the act of giving a particular job or position to someone; the act of appointing someone
- a job or duty that is given to a person: a position to which someone is appointed
Disappointment:
- the feeling of sadness or displeasure caused by the nonfulfillment of one's hopes or expectations.
- the feeling of dissatisfaction that follows the failure of expectations or hopes to manifest
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.
Posted: 08 January 2016 10:19 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 17 ]
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Celestial Wedgie
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DenverDude, welcome to PostMo, even if for only a short time. I'm like peace out and think you make some great points. (Oh the irony: someone with my name agreeing that some of the names here are snarky!) We might not have what you're looking for.
You know it's too bad: about 10 years ago we had an entirely separate forum here that was called The Accountability Thread, for people who were focused on becoming better people. There was a lot of irreverence and lamenting poisonous aspects of the church, but I think you might find that sort of thing more to your liking. The main focus, after all, was about disclosing and working on personal weaknesses and flaws. Some of my closest friends today are people I first met on that thread.
If I run across something that would match what you're seeking I'll be sure to send a PM to you. In the meantime, I have appreciated the three posts of yours that I read. If this isn't for you I understand. Wherever your journey takes you I wish you the best. If you decide to stay here for a while then I look forward to the opportunity to interact with and learn from you.
Posted: 08 January 2016 10:21 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 18 ]
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Elder OldDog
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I don't know how long you might have lurked, so who knows if you noticed one of the bigger problems that confronts any gathering of exmos: "The ghawd problem - - Is there one?"
It's my observation that agnostics/atheists are in the majority here, and that has at times created tension, because each side of the issue would love to *help* the other side *find* the truth. I worry that some people have been driven away because of this conflict, because lately it seems obvious to me that there's been too much pablum being posted, rather than the meat that the living really like to chew on.
So, go ahead, start a thread about beer, so that I can preach the one true gospel of coriander and citrus peels!
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Posted: 08 January 2016 12:07 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 19 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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Elder OldDog:
I don't know how long you might have lurked, so who knows if you noticed one of the bigger problems that confronts any gathering of exmos: "The ghawd problem - - Is there one?"
It's my observation that agnostics/atheists are in the majority here, and that has at times created tension, because each side of the issue would love to *help* the other side *find* the truth. I worry that some people have been driven away because of this conflict, because lately it seems obvious to me that there's been too much pablum being posted, rather than the meat that the living really like to chew on.
So, go ahead, start a thread about beer, so that I can preach the one true gospel of coriander and citrus peels!
And golf. You forgot about the one true gospel of golf.
Don't worry, I'll let you take a Mulligan on that one.
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You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler
Posted: 08 January 2016 12:17 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 20 ]
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Elder OldDog
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Matter Unorganized:
Elder OldDog:
I don't know how long you might have lurked, so who knows if you noticed one of the bigger problems that confronts any gathering of exmos: "The ghawd problem - - Is there one?"
It's my observation that agnostics/atheists are in the majority here, and that has at times created tension, because each side of the issue would love to *help* the other side *find* the truth. I worry that some people have been driven away because of this conflict, because lately it seems obvious to me that there's been too much pablum being posted, rather than the meat that the living really like to chew on.
So, go ahead, start a thread about beer, so that I can preach the one true gospel of coriander and citrus peels!
And golf. You forgot about the one true gospel of golf.
Don't worry, I'll let you take a Mulligan on that one.
Okay, he mentioned beer and I was going to get him going on that and THEN hit him with Further Light and Knowledge, i.e., Golf in the Kingdom.
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Posted: 08 January 2016 12:19 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 21 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Elder OldDog:
Matter Unorganized:
Elder OldDog:
I don't know how long you might have lurked, so who knows if you noticed one of the bigger problems that confronts any gathering of exmos: "The ghawd problem - - Is there one?"
It's my observation that agnostics/atheists are in the majority here, and that has at times created tension, because each side of the issue would love to *help* the other side *find* the truth. I worry that some people have been driven away because of this conflict, because lately it seems obvious to me that there's been too much pablum being posted, rather than the meat that the living really like to chew on.
So, go ahead, start a thread about beer, so that I can preach the one true gospel of coriander and citrus peels!
And golf. You forgot about the one true gospel of golf.
Don't worry, I'll let you take a Mulligan on that one.
Okay, he mentioned beer and I was going to get him going on that and THEN hit him with Further Light and Knowledge, i.e., Golf in the Kingdom.
Yeah, everyone knows it's beer before golf...
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
Phillip K. Dick
Posted: 08 January 2016 01:01 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 22 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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Some PostMos here have been hurt more than others. For some, it goes much deeper than the church is not true. What do you do when an organization that pretends to be god steals--what should have been--your life's savings? Your marriage? Due to toxic guilt syndrome--caused a loved one to commit suicide or to abandon the family? Caused sexual abuse because of Joseph Smith's bad example? (That happens more often than most think.) Caused the ones you love the most to no longer respect you? This is not even the beginning of the list of damage that has been done to many of us post mormons. As someone above states--we may never fully recover. The best some of us can do is to build positive, happy lives but we also need to vent as this is all we have--so far. Right now the government and legal system does not care that the mormon church has taken more from us than Bernie Madoff ever took from his victims. This should not have happened to us. I think we find some healing in knowing we can tell the world what can happen if they fall for the mormon story of lies. We feel we are doing some good by helping others to not have this happen to them.
I hope your needs will be met here. I am not certain what it is you are wanting to talk about but as was offered to you--start the thread. Please bring to us what you feel we are missing. We will be grateful for the good you can share with us.
I hope you understand that some of us may have different needs than you have. I personally know that at least one man was within hours of suicide from finding the truth about the church and then having his family turn on him. He found this site where he could tell his story and find others who understood his pain because we endure the same pain. I would bet there are a number of lives that have been saved by this site. I am eternally grateful for it. Venting here--for me--is healing. The feelings will be there even if I do not express them. Holding them in is not healthy. Yes, some of us are angry. I believe we have every right to be and considering our losses, I believe there would be something wrong with us if were not angry. When LDS, Inc stops taking people's minds, lives, time, relationships, money--through lies and fraud--sells all they have and return it to those fleeced--than I will have less need to vent.
Edited to Add: Another really important reason some need to vent is they are allowing themselves to live in a form of bondage in order to keep their family together. I cannot imagine the kind of courage that takes. I don't think I could do it. They are being forced to live a lie or they lose their spouse and/or children. Maybe they are open but their spouse cannot hear what they are saying. I can imagine that being able to come here and say what they feel--and be understood--might help them tremendously. I am Strong as that is what I became once I left being in bondage. I am more Free and Thankful than I have ever been in my life. My years out of mormonism have the happiest of my life so if I vent--well that is tiny compared to all the good. Welcome to PostMo Denver Dude!
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 08 January 2016 01:16 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 23 ]
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YesIAmAPyr8
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I been here long time. This place has gone through lots of ups and downs, ins and outs and what-have-yous over the years. I stay away mostly because I find that my particular take on some topics that arise here does not necessarily match the mission statement of this site.
Eh. That's life.
When a new arrival wanders in here, sits down and looks around at the crowd already here, sizes them up and then expresses disappointment because the room doesn't suit his fancy, I gotta wonder...what is expected? Is everyone obligated to alter their feelings and opinions in order to not disappoint a new arrival? If that isn't what is expected, why, for heck's sake would a new arrival feel obligated to take the time to tell everyone in the forum that they are not living up to the expectations of the new member?
We all have something in common. We may express ourselves differently and maybe not so pleasantly sometimes, but hey, that's the human comedy. Take in what you like and forget about the rest...
Sail on, mate...
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Posted: 08 January 2016 02:22 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 24 ]
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LostInParadise
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dave (e_nomo):
Thanks for your post, DenverDude.
I understand why some posts may be off-putting for you. You are past the point (or were never at the point) of anger and hurt. Leaving mormonism can be quick and easy for some, or slow and agonizing for others. There are so many variables, it's impossible to chart a best or typical way out.
For many, discovering the church is not what it claims to be is painful and heart-wrenching. For some, the feelings of betrayal and having been fooled can't just be ignored. People find release and catharsis in sharing their feelings. You yourself took the time to share your disappointment, so you understand on some level how that works and how it feels.
Some people come here and express the anger and resentment that they never were able to in real life. They say things here they never dared before. They find others who understand and commiserate. We would never want to silence them. They are tired of being silenced.
This may or may not be the place you were hoping to find. If you're game, I suggest starting a thread about coffee or craft beer. We've had many such threads and I can almost guarantee you will get a boatload of replies - people seem to have some very strong opinions on their java and brew.
This. Just like facebook tends to make people look more wise/successful/happy than they really are, this site probably makes a lot of us look more negative and bitter than we are. This is about the only place I can safely complain, question, or criticize the church, so I might tend to focus on that here.
At the same time, I'd love to see more topics about transitioning into "normal" life. A lot of the regulars here appear to have been around a while, so they aren't going to ask those questions. It's up to "newbies" like you and me. I've gotten some great advice already on this forum; you just have to pick which conversations you want to join.
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Posted: 08 January 2016 04:34 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 25 ]
In_Correct
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DenverDude:
Hello everyone. I am an ex-Mormon. I grew up in the chuch, served a mission in South Korea, was an Assistant to the President, post mission I served in a variety of callings and was active in the church most of my adult life. I also struggled off and on with an addiction, and it wasn't until getting outside help with 12 step groups and therapy that I realized the LDS faith didn't have a monopoly on God's power and was even doing things for addicts that were making it harder and worse for them.
I left the Church mindfully and and peacefully as I got clean. I always had doubts about the Church's origins and the historical aspects of the Church, but I took them on faith. Now I am more free and true to my base character.
I have been looking for a community of exmormons who were focused on transitioning into "normal" life and healing from the indocrination and shame being in the Church brings. Basically ex-LDS members who shared their strength and hope as they transitioned out.
Someone recommended this site to me. After reading the mission statement, the rules and some of the exit stories, this seemed to be the place.
The mission of the Post-Mormon Community is to provide a safe and supportive environment for people struggling with their Mormon beliefs, or who have left the Mormon Church. We accomplish that mission by connecting people who have years of experience outside the church with those first discovering they have the wings to explore the myriad of questions, ideas, feelings, hurts and new discoveries as they explore life beyond Mormonism. When considering what is and is not appropriate content for this site (including choice of username, avatar, the content of forum posts, images used, and the on-line treatment of other community members), ask yourself, "Does this contribute to the mission of Post-Mormon.org?" If the answer is "yes", then it is probably appropriate content for this site.
You can imagine my disappointment when thread after thread on this site was just like all the other anti-mormon sites; Trite and vindictive in tone, with members like the antagonistically named "Josephs Myths" spamming multiple threads of multiple attacks and derision that only serve to bring down and make fun of the Church.
I totally get that there are a lot of people who did not leave the Church happily and have an axe to grind. But I already left. I don't need to be sold on why the Church isn't true. It's over for me. I'm done. I'm also happier and at greater peace now and looking to learn and grow in my new life. I want to learn about coffee and craft beer and discuss spirituality and healing beyond the exlutionary dogma I grew up with. I want more points of view.
I am unsure how ripping on the Church is helpful, healing or going to make us better. How does attacking a religion with sarcastic comments make for better post-Mormons? How exactly does that "contribute to the mission of Post-Mormon.org?" I am finding that with most of these communities, that is norm: pissed off ex-Mormons who HATE the Church and spend lot of time and energy railing on it. I would suggest those persons aren't at peace with things and need counseling and healing to move past it.
An honest plea: Is there a community for ex-Mormons who don't hate the Church and just want to move on and talk? I would really like to meet more people like that. I'm in a wonderful place, personally. I've grown and learned so much. I want to share what I see now and continue to grow without the anger or smearing. Recommendations would be appreciated.
Thanks. And sorry if this post comes off as disapointed, but I was.
It's true. I don't have anything in common with anybody here. My exit story seems to be unique. I was born into it and I did not stay in it long be cause I wanted to be a normal teenager. This resulted in years of abuse such as constant rumor spreading to get me fired etc. I have destroyed (literally) all communication with Them and found an athletic casual family and I am in the process of Adult Adoption, includes changing my last name. I do not think that any body understands this be cause I don't think they have experienced it.
I still thank this web site for finding out some information to verify that I am not crazy. I found out some information regarding Church Rituals without asking Active Members. It is much easier to ask here! And the answers on here are usually impartial instead of a delusional response from a More Men. I also learned that More Men parents abusing children is quite common, especially if the children oppose The More Men Church. There are many more problems I verified and I am glad that this website helped me.
But my views are not Liberal, even if Irreligion is associated with Liberalism.
I also think that the Smearing that you speak of is innefective solution. My method of helping others is similar to ripping the old bandage off immediately: Resign. Keep your money. Live your life.
And I really don't think there is any such community that you desire.
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Posted: 08 January 2016 04:57 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 26 ]
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josephs myth
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In_Correct:
I also think that the Smearing that you speak of is innefective solution. My method of helping others is similar to ripping the old bandage off immediately: Resign. Keep your money. Live your life.
And I really don't think there is any such community that you desire.
It might seem ineffective in helping out with maybe yourself and possibly you're immediately applicable plight but I can guarantee it's making an incredibly huge and substantially important difference.
You really need to party with some former Christian Science peeps, look for a few cookouts with some Scientologist's in recovery. Don't forget those great PostMo's and then the Jehovah's Witnesses that find mending and healing too!
Just wait till you get the chance... It's like breathing again after having the wind knocked out of ya.
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
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Posted: 08 January 2016 08:44 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 27 ]
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Stigmata
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YesIAmAPyr:
I been here long time. This place has gone through lots of ups and downs, ins and outs and what-have-yous over the years. I stay away mostly because I find that my particular take on some topics that arise here does not necessarily match the mission statement of this site.
Eh. That's life.
When a new arrival wanders in here, sits down and looks around at the crowd already here, sizes them up and then expresses disappointment because the room doesn't suit his fancy, I gotta wonder...what is expected? Is everyone obligated to alter their feelings and opinions in order to not disappoint a new arrival? If that isn't what is expected, why, for heck's sake would a new arrival feel obligated to take the time to tell everyone in the forum that they are not living up to the expectations of the new member?
We all have something in common. We may express ourselves differently and maybe not so pleasantly sometimes, but hey, that's the human comedy. Take in what you like and forget about the rest...
Sail on, mate...
I totally agree with this. DenverDude, I am glad for you that you have your shit together, you made that very clear in your OP while describing your brief assessment of this forum. What you may not realize is that many/most postmo's are not in the same situation you are or have been in. We don't know your story and you don't know ours. Everyone here has been affected by Mormonism in a negative manner, otherwise we would not be here seeking like minds and support.
For me this forum has been a huge source of support in times when I had felt especially alone, when I could not safely share my thoughts with the people close to me in real life. This forum has helped me work through feelings of despair and the hopelessness that came when I first began to discover the truth behind Mormonism. So no, not all of us are as awesome as you are. Your post here comes across as arrogant and condescending.
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Posted: 08 January 2016 09:42 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 28 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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Stigmata:
YesIAmAPyr:
I been here long time. This place has gone through lots of ups and downs, ins and outs and what-have-yous over the years. I stay away mostly because I find that my particular take on some topics that arise here does not necessarily match the mission statement of this site.
Eh. That's life.
When a new arrival wanders in here, sits down and looks around at the crowd already here, sizes them up and then expresses disappointment because the room doesn't suit his fancy, I gotta wonder...what is expected? Is everyone obligated to alter their feelings and opinions in order to not disappoint a new arrival? If that isn't what is expected, why, for heck's sake would a new arrival feel obligated to take the time to tell everyone in the forum that they are not living up to the expectations of the new member?
We all have something in common. We may express ourselves differently and maybe not so pleasantly sometimes, but hey, that's the human comedy. Take in what you like and forget about the rest...
Sail on, mate...
I totally agree with this. DenverDude, I am glad for you that you have your shit together, you made that very clear in your OP while describing your brief assessment of this forum. What you may not realize is that many/most postmo's are not in the same situation you are or have been in. We don't know your story and you don't know ours. Everyone here has been affected by Mormonism in a negative manner, otherwise we would not be here seeking like minds and support.
For me this forum has been a huge source of support in times when I had felt especially alone, when I could not safely share my thoughts with the people close to me in real life. This forum has helped me work through feelings of despair and the hopelessness that came when I first began to discover the truth behind Mormonism. So no, not all of us are as awesome as you are. Your post here comes across as arrogant and condescending.
Stigmata,
You reached out and touched my heart with this part of your post. Every word you wrote stands true for me as well. I don't know what I would have done without this site. It would have been much harder. Jeff Ricks is a hero and has given us a priceless gift. Some may not understand the value but some of us cherish it.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 09 January 2016 03:58 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 29 ]
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Winyan
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Having a place where I can come and vent when I need to has been a sanity saver for me. I'm the only caregiver for my elderly, very mormon father. Between him and all of his church friends and leaders who are here in our home all the time, I can't get away from mormonism. As much as I try to distance myself from it emotionally, it smacks me in the face every day.
Even if I don't post here a lot, I can read what others are experiencing and know I'm not alone. That's priceless to me.
It doesn't mean that I'm always feeling or speaking negatively about the church. But sometimes the stress builds, and I'm grateful for this outlet. The humor here helps a lot too. That can be downright medicinal.
Thanks, everyone.
Posted: 09 January 2016 05:33 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 30 ]
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josephs myth
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Winyan:
Having a place where I can come and vent when I need to has been a sanity saver for me. I'm the only caregiver for my elderly, very mormon father. Between him and all of his church friends and leaders who are here in our home all the time, I can't get away from mormonism. As much as I try to distance myself from it emotionally, it smacks me in the face every day.
Even if I don't post here a lot, I can read what others are experiencing and know I'm not alone. That's priceless to me.
It doesn't mean that I'm always feeling or speaking negatively about the church. But sometimes the stress builds, and I'm grateful for this outlet. The humor here helps a lot too. That can be downright medicinal.
Thanks, everyone.
Those LDS bombardments sound relentlessly staggering, oh my goodness! You gotta have a good and dependable life-raft for what may come and try and twist us into a pretzel sometimes.
Amazing!
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
Posted: 09 January 2016 08:01 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 31 ]
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DenverDude:
Hello everyone. I am an ex-Mormon. I grew up in the chuch, served a mission in South Korea, was an Assistant to the President, post mission I served in a variety of callings and was active in the church most of my adult life. I also struggled off and on with an addiction, and it wasn't until getting outside help with 12 step groups and therapy that I realized the LDS faith didn't have a monopoly on God's power and was even doing things for addicts that were making it harder and worse for them.
I left the Church mindfully and and peacefully as I got clean. I always had doubts about the Church's origins and the historical aspects of the Church, but I took them on faith. Now I am more free and true to my base character.
I have been looking for a community of exmormons who were focused on transitioning into "normal" life and healing from the indocrination and shame being in the Church brings. Basically ex-LDS members who shared their strength and hope as they transitioned out.
Someone recommended this site to me. After reading the mission statement, the rules and some of the exit stories, this seemed to be the place.
The mission of the Post-Mormon Community is to provide a safe and supportive environment for people struggling with their Mormon beliefs, or who have left the Mormon Church. We accomplish that mission by connecting people who have years of experience outside the church with those first discovering they have the wings to explore the myriad of questions, ideas, feelings, hurts and new discoveries as they explore life beyond Mormonism. When considering what is and is not appropriate content for this site (including choice of username, avatar, the content of forum posts, images used, and the on-line treatment of other community members), ask yourself, "Does this contribute to the mission of Post-Mormon.org?" If the answer is "yes", then it is probably appropriate content for this site.
You can imagine my disappointment when thread after thread on this site was just like all the other anti-mormon sites; Trite and vindictive in tone, with members like the antagonistically named "Josephs Myths" spamming multiple threads of multiple attacks and derision that only serve to bring down and make fun of the Church.
I totally get that there are a lot of people who did not leave the Church happily and have an axe to grind. But I already left. I don't need to be sold on why the Church isn't true. It's over for me. I'm done. I'm also happier and at greater peace now and looking to learn and grow in my new life. I want to learn about coffee and craft beer and discuss spirituality and healing beyond the exlutionary dogma I grew up with. I want more points of view.
I am unsure how ripping on the Church is helpful, healing or going to make us better. How does attacking a religion with sarcastic comments make for better post-Mormons? How exactly does that "contribute to the mission of Post-Mormon.org?" I am finding that with most of these communities, that is norm: pissed off ex-Mormons who HATE the Church and spend lot of time and energy railing on it. I would suggest those persons aren't at peace with things and need counseling and healing to move past it.
An honest plea: Is there a community for ex-Mormons who don't hate the Church and just want to move on and talk? I would really like to meet more people like that. I'm in a wonderful place, personally. I've grown and learned so much. I want to share what I see now and continue to grow without the anger or smearing. Recommendations would be appreciated.
Thanks. And sorry if this post comes off as disapointed, but I was.
I understand what you are saying and I support you. I assure you that there is a group of exmormons out in the community that do not hate the church and are happily out of it. However, that process takes time and what you see in many of the posts are people who are newly out of the church and are still grieving the loss of what they loved about the community and the feeling of belonging to something. I was raised in the church but started not to believe in about 2006. I found some information on the internet and read a few books and my rational mind took over and I began not to believe. I stopped going to church and read more and more and I was very angry that people had lied about the history. I was angry that Joseph Smith was a narcissist or possibly a sociopath and that I was basing my life ethic on such a person's teachings. I found out the Book of Mormon was a fabrication, and so on. It took about 4 years before I did not get angry everytime I heard anything about the church. It took about 5 years before I could go into a church without feeling anxious. I resigned for good in 2012 and I have not looked back. I am comfortable now with people who believe in the church. I am OK with it and when they ask me if I would like to hear the message, I just say no thank you. I do not elaborate or try to tell them how bad it is. I simply respect their right to believe and act how they wish. I live in a community that has a high percentage of the population being LDS. I have friends that go on missions, die, etc, making it necessary that I attend meetings occasionally. I am at the stage where I can do that and I do not feel anything more than if I were attending a Catholic or Methodist service.
The problem is that when you get to this stage, it really is not important to write about it or defend it so you do not see people like me posting much.
The other group that posts some is the philosophers. I kind of enjoy reading what they have to say because they continue to study and devise arguments to support whatever they are currently touting. I do learn from them but I have ceased to continue reading books that out the church. I have better things to do.
I hope that you can find some of what you want on this forum. It is a good group of people who are just doing their best to dig themselves out of whatever position they adopted when they were loyal members of the church but it takes time and there is some anger during the process and this is a safe place to vent that anger.
Posted: 09 January 2016 08:17 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 32 ]
from the 5th wife
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Hi Denver Dude
Thank you for joining us here on post mo and thank you for starting this thread. I have read the whole thing twice. It has been a while since a thread has been so thought provoking as this for me.
Most of my life (48 years) I hated going to church and hated who I became because of my active membership but I went every week and did everyithing asked of me and then one day as I was driving down the road I saw a billboard sign that said "Post Mormon, you're not alone". I said to the guy I was riding with "did you see that" and he said "yea, Satan is hard at work in our area right now". I quietly memorized the post mormon website and when I was alone with no chance of getting caught I came here and started to read about others just like me.
Long story short This place helped me in part to seperate myself from the damaging effects of the mormon religion. Then one day my wife caught me reading on this site and told me that I should stop reading all this "hate". I told her it was not hate it was just peoples life stories and a sharing of information. She was curious and when I was not around she started to read. Now she is out and our marriage of 25 years has never been better.
Yes there are posters who post some things that I dissagree. Sometimes someone will post a link with something good that the mormon church has done that is good for the community and then proceed to make fun of what they have done. There are other times when some of the things the church does deserves to be made fun of. Sometimes someone will come here with a secret agenda trying to convert all of us post mormon athiests to christianity.
I personally am past all of the church doctrine proving the church is false, I think most of us can agree on that. My favorite posts are of personal stories written about their feelings and how they are dealing with the day to day changes brought about by their decisions to leave the church and how they are dealing with those changes. I mostly just read and occasionally post when I think I can be helpfull.
Again, Welcome and I hope you stay, I think you have a lot to add and look forward to reading about your personal story.
Posted: 09 January 2016 02:41 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 33 ]
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“Be the change that you wish to see in the world.”
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Posted: 09 January 2016 09:35 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 34 ]
DenverDude
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Wow. Lots of great stuff and very helpful to me in understanding what you are all going through. It’s really made me see why you have the tone you do. Many of you are still surrounded by it and have nowhere to go to vent or even just be real! I imagine the Utah members especially have a hard time with it permeating into your work, home and social lives. I can also appreciate being married to, and having family members that are active believers and being frustrated that you feel they are being duped. I really appreciate the honesty around the hostility.
So some more backstory; I don't live in Utah (thank God!) and My wife and daughter do still go, though my wife doesn't actually believe. She's just scared of the socially negative repercussions. Her parents are very stern and have been trying to drive a wedge between us after I “came out” as not a practitioner of the faith.
My side of the family is the opposite where we're filled with a bunch of people who are addicts, depressed and never lived up to the LDS ideal. Half have left the church, and the other half are very broken. I am sure many in the Church are not sad to see us go. So for me, turning away was easy because my “happy family” was one of abuse, drug addiction and depression. I had a lot of family support on my side when I left.
My wife’s side is probably more along the lines of what some of you are experiencing. For me, anger and reductive thinking don’t lead to peace. I’m an addict in recovery, and that kind of resentment and vengeful thinking, even in a somewhat humorous sense, is poisonous to my personal well-being.
I also don’t think LDS people are “bad” because they are wrong. I still love and care for my LDS friends and family members and consider them “good people.” I have found even discussing my issues with the church in a totally objective way makes my family members who believe defensive and feel threatened. So I have learned not to go there unless they initiate it.
But I know how important it is for some here to be able to say where they are at, no matter how hard that can be to hear, and get it out. So I can appreciate people need a safe place to vent.
For what it’s worth, I never asked the community to “alter their feelings and opinions in order to not disappoint me” as YesIAmPyr inferred. I didn’t tell anyone to feel anything or change what they were doing. I pointed out the apparent disconnect I saw between what I understood the site’s mission to be and what the content of the forum seemed to say. I asked if there were other forum’s about acclimating to non-Mormon life and sharing feelings and experiences as we transition that were less anger-based.
Also I didn't mean to suggest everyone with humorous avatar name is mean-spirited. I think Celestial Wedgie is hilarious. But thank you all so much for responding so thoughtfully to my post. This is more of what I was looking for and it is in the sharing our shared healing and growth is found.
Posted: 10 January 2016 01:35 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 35 ]
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Celestial Wedgie:
DenverDude, welcome to PostMo, even if for only a short time. I'm like peace out and think you make some great points. (Oh the irony: someone with my name agreeing that some of the names here are snarky!) We might not have what you're looking for.
You know it's too bad: about 10 years ago we had an entirely separate forum here that was called The Accountability Thread, for people who were focused on becoming better people. There was a lot of irreverence and lamenting poisonous aspects of the church, but I think you might find that sort of thing more to your liking. The main focus, after all, was about disclosing and working on personal weaknesses and flaws. Some of my closest friends today are people I first met on that thread.
If I run across something that would match what you're seeking I'll be sure to send a PM to you. In the meantime, I have appreciated the three posts of yours that I read. If this isn't for you I understand. Wherever your journey takes you I wish you the best. If you decide to stay here for a while then I look forward to the opportunity to interact with and learn from you.
I am very interested in this The Accountability Thread.
If yo uhadn't not iced, I am much mor einterested in sharing the progress in my life, be cause I am living the live that the Chore Mens did not want me to have.
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Posted: 10 January 2016 06:22 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 36 ]
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josephs myth
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In_Correct: I am very interested in this The Accountability Thread.
Eventually nobody really cares what Chore-Mens or More-Mens 'think' but don't tell the Oregonian rifle ready LDS cowboys that.
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/6484/
(old thread alert) login2view
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
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Posted: 11 January 2016 01:26 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 37 ]
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Celestial Wedgie
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Yep, Joseph's Myth, that's the old thread. It's dormant now, closed down of its own weight. (There were more than 500 pages on that accountability thread.)
DenverDude, I don't know where you'll find it, but I know there must be other groups out there, people who mainly want to make themselves better. I realize that you're in Colorado, but here in Utah there is this: http://www.myusara.com/
I think the recovery community has a more firm grasp of the notion, "Relate, don't compare." It's a slippery but useful concept that helps us not get lost in taking another person's inventory. Given what you've described, DenverDude, I would think that's the domain where you're more likely to find what you want.
Thanks for liking my screen name. It is cheeky, I'll admit. But I really like it.
One last thing: your post generated some thoughtful, insightful responses. Sometime what we most need is good "seeds" to generate high-level discussion. Yours was perfect.
Posted: 14 January 2016 07:06 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 38 ]
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Yinyang
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Hi there DenverDude,
I think what you wrote below really demonstrates where you are at:
"But I already left. I don't need to be sold on why the Church isn't true. It's over for me. I'm done. I'm also happier and at greater peace now and looking to learn and grow in my new life. I want to learn about coffee and craft beer and discuss spirituality and healing beyond the exlutionary dogma I grew up with. I want more points of view."
The post mormon periord can be filled with all the stages of grief: shock, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. It is likely that you will see all of these stages and associated behaviors in these online support groups like Post-Mormon. As you can imagine a place like this provides tremendous support for those who discover the fraud of mormonism and feel like their world has been turned on its side.
Every now and then people stay for a while here and then move on as they learn to live outside the clutches of moism. This place has been described as "the inn at the side of the road" --- a safe place for people to stay until they are ready to move on. Pull up next to the fire and have a cup of coffee.
However, there is a growing group of postmormons who are best described as "post-postmormons." This group, like you, is done hashing out the details and recovering from the pain of the religion. They embrace life with arms wide open and ready for liberating adventures and learning to live without pious limitations. It can be exhilarating
Find groups that you share interests with. Hiking? Public radio? Travel? Yoga? Travel groups?
I recently joined a group called "kick-ass women rising" on facebook for post-postmormon women. The goal of the group is "to move on from discussions of the church, but maintain the awesome community that was built in that group. We're here to discuss day-to-day life after Mormonism. Really, we're just a group of women who will support one another in questions and statements on coffee, clothing, underwear, work, school, dating, raising kids, sex, being good people, marriage, alcohol, seeking real-life friendships, etc. Please just leave behind the Mormon and ex-Mormon memes, screen-shots of tbm pages, discussion on General Conference, rants about your tbm family, you get the idea. We all need to talk about religion and leaving religion, but this is not the group for that." Sounds pretty cool right? Dudes probably have their own groups.
There are lots and lots of ways to live the post-postmormon life and I hope you can find your path. Thanks for stopping by!
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Dedication Recommend Needed
by Denker
Mickelsen's "Dirty Linen"
by antipsicótica
Not Angry, A little confused, and a lot scared
by Winyan
Porn, Good or Bad?
by MishMagnet
Ghawd is anti-immigration?
by LostInParadise
The published journals of a gay apostate Mormon missionary
by CorbinBrodie
Morg and Utah politics
by Kevin2
St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward - Meetup - Sunday, February 21st, 10:00am at Harmons (Draper, UT) - ***New photo at bottom of thread***
by BITE ME
the temperature of your caffeine
by evil_archer
Revised Articles of Faith
by WinstonSmith
Do You Know Anyone Who Is Developing A Death Wish Because The Next Life Is So Wonderful?
by Strong Free & Thankful
Musings on the Holy Ghost
by Hank
What's in a Name?
by Denker
A New Reformation
by Lloyd Dobler
"It's not Stockholm Syndrome, I stay because The Spirit™ told me to!"
by Lloyd Dobler
Conspiracy Theories - Why Mormons Love Them So?
by Celestial Wedgie
G.A. accused of sexual assault (link)
by Elder OldDog
Are you in a codependent relationship?
by WinstonSmith
A blast from the "intellectual" past
by Strong Free & Thankful
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/41995/
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2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
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Financial Report for 2011 to Date
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Twin Falls Newspaper Article
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The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
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Christmas Party ~ Diamond Head Area
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Third Thirsty Thursday @ Freemont Street 11/19/15
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[Southern Utah Pos...]
NEW GROUP MEETING SCHEDULE!
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Book of Mormon Tories
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Why I am a Better Mother
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Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
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Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2
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The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
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exmoinaz
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owned
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onendagus
Resignation Letter to My Family
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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The BITE Model and Mormon Control ebook released today
Posted: 24 June 2015 11:02 AM [ Ignore ]
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lunaverse
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Hi folks!
If you've been on this site for 10 years, you might remember my paper called "The BITE Model and Mormon Control" from my old website. Well, I've updated it and added some content to it, and created an ebook version. It maps Steven Hassan's BITE Model to LDS doctrines.
You can still read the old version for free on my webiste, but if you want the snazzy new hotness, it's only $2.99.
It's short, so it can be read as a supplement to Recovering Agency for those who really want to dig deeper. OR for those who don't want to read a long book, you can read this one instead to just get the highlights.
What's it about? Unmask the powerful coercive persuasion techniques used by Mormonism. Through control of Behavior, Information, Thoughts, and Emotions, a group can take power over a member's entire life and mind. Read specific examples of how Mormon practices make it extremely difficult for members to entertain reasonable doubts or recognize their own feelings that differ from the groupthink.
Read to understand more about how you, personally, have been manipulated. Or if you've never been LDS, then read to understand the Mormon psyche.
And always, thank you for your support so I can continue doing this important research.
http://amzn.to/1Jjl6lO
Signature
If wickedness never was happiness, then why am I so happy?
Author of Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control
Site: http://www.recoveringagency.com
Old Site: http://www.rationalrevelation.com/
Regular Blog: http://www.lunalindsey.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/lunalindsey
Posted: 30 December 2015 11:49 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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LostInParadise
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I just learned about the BITE Model. Too bad I probably never would have considered myself a victim when I was completely brainwashed. Now that I'm taking back my brain, it's so evident. I'll check out your book!
Signature
“I asked him why he had left the church. He said something about science. I don’t know, perhaps he was offended.” o_O
credit: Matter Unorganized
Posted: 30 December 2015 07:50 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
Long Timer
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Joined 2010-05-22
lunaverse:
Hi folks!
If you've been on this site for 10 years, you might remember my paper called "The BITE Model and Mormon Control" from my old website. Well, I've updated it and added some content to it, and created an ebook version. It maps Steven Hassan's BITE Model to LDS doctrines.
You can still read the old version for free on my webiste, but if you want the snazzy new hotness, it's only $2.99.
It's short, so it can be read as a supplement to Recovering Agency for those who really want to dig deeper. OR for those who don't want to read a long book, you can read this one instead to just get the highlights.
What's it about? Unmask the powerful coercive persuasion techniques used by Mormonism. Through control of Behavior, Information, Thoughts, and Emotions, a group can take power over a member's entire life and mind. Read specific examples of how Mormon practices make it extremely difficult for members to entertain reasonable doubts or recognize their own feelings that differ from the groupthink.
Read to understand more about how you, personally, have been manipulated. Or if you've never been LDS, then read to understand the Mormon psyche.
And always, thank you for your support so I can continue doing this important research.
http://amzn.to/1Jjl6lO
Once again--a great job Luna! Only read the preview but this is now on my reading list. Reminded me I need to the donation I promised started!
Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 01 January 2016 11:54 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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lunaverse
Long Timer
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Joined 2005-09-28
^_^
Signature
If wickedness never was happiness, then why am I so happy?
Author of Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control
Site: http://www.recoveringagency.com
Old Site: http://www.rationalrevelation.com/
Regular Blog: http://www.lunalindsey.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/lunalindsey
‹‹ The Mormon Church Needs to Cry "Uncle" When It Comes to Drinking Coffee Hitler finds out about Joseph Smith’s 40 wives. ››
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Help with 12 minute video about dna. Need a rebuttal
by Strong Free & Thankful
Dedication Recommend Needed
by Denker
Mickelsen's "Dirty Linen"
by antipsicótica
Not Angry, A little confused, and a lot scared
by Winyan
Porn, Good or Bad?
by MishMagnet
Ghawd is anti-immigration?
by LostInParadise
The published journals of a gay apostate Mormon missionary
by CorbinBrodie
Morg and Utah politics
by Kevin2
St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward - Meetup - Sunday, February 21st, 10:00am at Harmons (Draper, UT) - ***New photo at bottom of thread***
by BITE ME
the temperature of your caffeine
by evil_archer
Revised Articles of Faith
by WinstonSmith
Do You Know Anyone Who Is Developing A Death Wish Because The Next Life Is So Wonderful?
by Strong Free & Thankful
Musings on the Holy Ghost
by Hank
What's in a Name?
by Denker
A New Reformation
by Lloyd Dobler
"It's not Stockholm Syndrome, I stay because The Spirit™ told me to!"
by Lloyd Dobler
Conspiracy Theories - Why Mormons Love Them So?
by Celestial Wedgie
G.A. accused of sexual assault (link)
by Elder OldDog
Are you in a codependent relationship?
by WinstonSmith
A blast from the "intellectual" past
by Strong Free & Thankful
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/41375/
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2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
Financial Report for 2009
Twin Falls Newspaper Article
Twin Falls Billboard
Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
[Southern Utah Pos...]
SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
[Southern Utah Pos...]
New Year's Eve Party
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (1/3)
[San Francisco Bay...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (12/6)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Southern Utah Post Mormon Association to meet December 6th at the Red Lion in St. George
[Southern Utah Pos...]
Christmas Party ~ Diamond Head Area
[Oahu Post Mormon ...]
Third Thirsty Thursday @ Freemont Street 11/19/15
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (11/1)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Southern Utah Postmormon Association to meet November 1st at the Red Lion in St. George
[Southern Utah Pos...]
NEW GROUP MEETING SCHEDULE!
[San Diego Post-Mo...]
Book of Mormon Tories
by Chris Sexton
Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2
Post-mormon Roles
sam2
Post-mormon Roles
former victim
The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder
Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT
Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother
Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2
FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy
FACEBOOK INFO
Barn
October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet
October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie
Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned
The Mormon Mask
by Born Free
Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
onendagus
Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage
Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage
Guru Busters
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Guru Busters
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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Posted: 28 December 2015 09:00 AM [ Ignore ]
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Sunbeep
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.
Posted: 28 December 2015 11:04 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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LostInParadise
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Well, that answers my question!
Signature
“I asked him why he had left the church. He said something about science. I don’t know, perhaps he was offended.” o_O
credit: Matter Unorganized
Posted: 28 December 2015 11:33 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
former victim
Long Timer
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There obviously is NOT an over whelming rush or desire, to list, or note anything!!!
Feel free to count me in on the nothing new to note list.....
Posted: 29 December 2015 07:46 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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I'll add to the list.
Nope, got nothin' .....
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You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler
Posted: 29 December 2015 08:57 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
Administrator
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You guys are killing me.
I got nothing either.
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
Phillip K. Dick
Posted: 29 December 2015 11:26 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
Free2Live
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Eye candy! Singles university wards have eye candy!
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.
Posted: 29 December 2015 11:38 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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FreeLive:
Eye candy! Singles university wards have eye candy!
True, but unfortunately at my age it would just be creepy. The eye candy is younger than my own kids.
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You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler
Posted: 29 December 2015 03:12 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Tessa
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Active? Not hardly.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
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Help with 12 minute video about dna. Need a rebuttal
by Strong Free & Thankful
Dedication Recommend Needed
by Denker
Mickelsen's "Dirty Linen"
by antipsicótica
Not Angry, A little confused, and a lot scared
by Winyan
Porn, Good or Bad?
by MishMagnet
Ghawd is anti-immigration?
by LostInParadise
The published journals of a gay apostate Mormon missionary
by CorbinBrodie
Morg and Utah politics
by Kevin2
St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward - Meetup - Sunday, February 21st, 10:00am at Harmons (Draper, UT) - ***New photo at bottom of thread***
by BITE ME
the temperature of your caffeine
by evil_archer
Revised Articles of Faith
by WinstonSmith
Do You Know Anyone Who Is Developing A Death Wish Because The Next Life Is So Wonderful?
by Strong Free & Thankful
Musings on the Holy Ghost
by Hank
What's in a Name?
by Denker
A New Reformation
by Lloyd Dobler
"It's not Stockholm Syndrome, I stay because The Spirit™ told me to!"
by Lloyd Dobler
Conspiracy Theories - Why Mormons Love Them So?
by Celestial Wedgie
G.A. accused of sexual assault (link)
by Elder OldDog
Are you in a codependent relationship?
by WinstonSmith
A blast from the "intellectual" past
by Strong Free & Thankful
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/41966/
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2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
Financial Report for 2009
Twin Falls Newspaper Article
Twin Falls Billboard
Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
[Southern Utah Pos...]
SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
[Southern Utah Pos...]
New Year's Eve Party
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (1/3)
[San Francisco Bay...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (12/6)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Southern Utah Post Mormon Association to meet December 6th at the Red Lion in St. George
[Southern Utah Pos...]
Christmas Party ~ Diamond Head Area
[Oahu Post Mormon ...]
Third Thirsty Thursday @ Freemont Street 11/19/15
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (11/1)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Southern Utah Postmormon Association to meet November 1st at the Red Lion in St. George
[Southern Utah Pos...]
NEW GROUP MEETING SCHEDULE!
[San Diego Post-Mo...]
Book of Mormon Tories
by Chris Sexton
Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2
Post-mormon Roles
sam2
Post-mormon Roles
former victim
The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder
Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT
Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother
Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2
FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy
FACEBOOK INFO
Barn
October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet
October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie
Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned
The Mormon Mask
by Born Free
Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
onendagus
Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage
Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage
Guru Busters
by Flora4
Guru Busters
by Flora4
Resignation Letter to My Family
Hbush1987
General Non-Conference: Palmetto State Session
Swearing Elder
Home Our Community
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Long Valley Post-Mormons
Millard County Post-Mormons
New Hope Post-Mormons of Weber Co.
Salt Lake City Post-Mormons
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Posted: 28 December 2015 09:57 AM [ Ignore ]
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josephs myth
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Way to get the New Year started!
http://www.seattletimes.com/entertainment/theater/the-book-of-mormon-back-in-seattle-for-third-time/
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_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
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Posted: 28 December 2015 11:33 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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I'm hoping to see it this time around.
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
Phillip K. Dick
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Help with 12 minute video about dna. Need a rebuttal
by Strong Free & Thankful
Dedication Recommend Needed
by Denker
Mickelsen's "Dirty Linen"
by antipsicótica
Not Angry, A little confused, and a lot scared
by Winyan
Porn, Good or Bad?
by MishMagnet
Ghawd is anti-immigration?
by LostInParadise
The published journals of a gay apostate Mormon missionary
by CorbinBrodie
Morg and Utah politics
by Kevin2
St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward - Meetup - Sunday, February 21st, 10:00am at Harmons (Draper, UT) - ***New photo at bottom of thread***
by BITE ME
the temperature of your caffeine
by evil_archer
Revised Articles of Faith
by WinstonSmith
Do You Know Anyone Who Is Developing A Death Wish Because The Next Life Is So Wonderful?
by Strong Free & Thankful
Musings on the Holy Ghost
by Hank
What's in a Name?
by Denker
A New Reformation
by Lloyd Dobler
"It's not Stockholm Syndrome, I stay because The Spirit™ told me to!"
by Lloyd Dobler
Conspiracy Theories - Why Mormons Love Them So?
by Celestial Wedgie
G.A. accused of sexual assault (link)
by Elder OldDog
Are you in a codependent relationship?
by WinstonSmith
A blast from the "intellectual" past
by Strong Free & Thankful
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/41967/
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Posted: 28 December 2015 11:48 AM [ Ignore ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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I really enjoy podcasts while driving. Here's are some of my favorites:
Radiolab
99% Invisible
Invisibilia
Fugitive Waves
The Memory Palace
Inquiring Minds
Which podcasts do you enjoy?
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Posted: 28 December 2015 12:02 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
Free2Live
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My addiction isn't in podcast media but it is on youtube. I have found hours and hours and hours of enjoyment in listening to coast2coast AM
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.
Posted: 28 December 2015 07:04 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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dave (e_nomo)
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I love "This American Life." Fascinating stories.
There was a spin-off called "Serial" which followed a single story for many episodes.
Also great stuff. I heard there is a new season of Serial starting up.
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Posted: 29 December 2015 04:51 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Lyman
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I love the No Agenda Show. It's basically two guys (Adam Curry - old school MTV VJ, and John Dvorak - tech writer) talking about news and their lives.
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A blast from the "intellectual" past
by Strong Free & Thankful
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2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
Financial Report for 2009
Twin Falls Newspaper Article
Twin Falls Billboard
Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
[Southern Utah Pos...]
SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
[Southern Utah Pos...]
New Year's Eve Party
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (1/3)
[San Francisco Bay...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (12/6)
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Southern Utah Post Mormon Association to meet December 6th at the Red Lion in St. George
[Southern Utah Pos...]
Christmas Party ~ Diamond Head Area
[Oahu Post Mormon ...]
Third Thirsty Thursday @ Freemont Street 11/19/15
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (11/1)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Southern Utah Postmormon Association to meet November 1st at the Red Lion in St. George
[Southern Utah Pos...]
NEW GROUP MEETING SCHEDULE!
[San Diego Post-Mo...]
Book of Mormon Tories
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Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2
Post-mormon Roles
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former victim
The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder
Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT
Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother
Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2
FACEBOOK INFO
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Barn
October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
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Why I am a Better Mother
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The Mormon Mask
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christmas.mormon.org
Posted: 02 December 2015 05:18 AM [ Ignore ]
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josephs myth
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Heh, at least in this new campaign the LDS church (small C) might be asking, "What Is A Savior?", even though I know we'll all hear all about their Mormon Jesus. Great goog-a-mooga, sheesh... During the LDS 2014 push, that campaign back then said "He Is The Gift", ambiguously leaving out the name Jesus. Seems he sometimes makes Mormonism feel uncomfortable. I wonder why?
http://www.christianpost.com/news/a-savior-is-born-viral-christmas-video-mormon-church-151364/
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Posted: 02 December 2015 09:18 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
jellybean
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There is a BIG blogger push on this one. They had two or three private parties for "influencers" to come and see this wonderful new video and learn how to take part in sharing it on their blogs. Have you seen the uptick in posts on Instagram too? There was a hashtag for the parties as well with everyone gushing about how beautiful the campaign is... blah blah blah. The church must really be worried about membership with all the push for media coverage from bloggers.
Posted: 02 December 2015 02:06 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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josephs myth
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jellybean:
There is a BIG blogger push on this one. They had two or three private parties for "influencers" to come and see this wonderful new video and learn how to take part in sharing it on their blogs. Have you seen the uptick in posts on Instagram too? There was a hashtag for the parties as well with everyone gushing about how beautiful the campaign is... blah blah blah. The church must really be worried about membership with all the push for media coverage from bloggers.
It could remark of attempting to bail out the leaking bilge water with too small of a cup.
Maybe as everyone watches numbers in the membership sink lower and lower and lower on what appears to be almost a rudderless vessel.
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-Nothing beats a failure like a try
_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
Posted: 18 December 2015 08:19 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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josephs myth
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It's now claiming to have mastered, reaching millions.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865643921/LDS-Church-video-A-Savior-Is-Born-reaches-millions.html?pg=all
Wait! Might that mean the campaign will have been a successful program in reaching the maybe 15.3 million Mormons?
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-Nothing beats a failure like a try
_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
Posted: 18 December 2015 08:33 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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I saw one of the ads on Hulu, I think. I would have just tuned it out if JM hadn't been posting about the campaign.
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
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Posted: 21 December 2015 12:59 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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josephs myth
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http://www.southpeacenews.com/newsdesk/volume53/151216/religous.html
This one I actually liked! It was a bit on the heavy side of, 'Follow-The-Yellow-Brick-Road', and that kinda gets really old after being too LDS all of those years. After a while, you want something truly inspirational and dynamically refreshing. Something not so Mormon. Puhlease, another LDS burden? Really?
What if the Christmas Smithmas story wasn't about measurement and icy judgement? What if it was more about the "come as you are" brevity and all about setting the heavy laden burdens down?
Feel inspired, walk away from the Smithmas trap.
Signature
-Nothing beats a failure like a try
_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
Posted: 27 December 2015 06:52 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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josephs myth
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It's supposed to be over December 26th but as usual the entire 2015 LDS Christmas campaign will continue to be used and used as a smokescreen to cover-up and distract potential missionary prospects from Mormon motives.
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=37877270&nid=1284&title=lds-church-members-celebrates-christmas-across-us
Signature
-Nothing beats a failure like a try
_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
‹‹ If I Were The Profit, I Would Tell Members To Keep Tithing Money & Buy Healthy Food Leaving LDS Church Well ››
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Help with 12 minute video about dna. Need a rebuttal
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Dedication Recommend Needed
by Denker
Mickelsen's "Dirty Linen"
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Not Angry, A little confused, and a lot scared
by Winyan
Porn, Good or Bad?
by MishMagnet
Ghawd is anti-immigration?
by LostInParadise
The published journals of a gay apostate Mormon missionary
by CorbinBrodie
Morg and Utah politics
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St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward - Meetup - Sunday, February 21st, 10:00am at Harmons (Draper, UT) - ***New photo at bottom of thread***
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the temperature of your caffeine
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Revised Articles of Faith
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Do You Know Anyone Who Is Developing A Death Wish Because The Next Life Is So Wonderful?
by Strong Free & Thankful
Musings on the Holy Ghost
by Hank
What's in a Name?
by Denker
A New Reformation
by Lloyd Dobler
"It's not Stockholm Syndrome, I stay because The Spirit™ told me to!"
by Lloyd Dobler
Conspiracy Theories - Why Mormons Love Them So?
by Celestial Wedgie
G.A. accused of sexual assault (link)
by Elder OldDog
Are you in a codependent relationship?
by WinstonSmith
A blast from the "intellectual" past
by Strong Free & Thankful
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2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
Financial Report for 2009
Twin Falls Newspaper Article
Twin Falls Billboard
Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
[Southern Utah Pos...]
SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
[Southern Utah Pos...]
New Year's Eve Party
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (1/3)
[San Francisco Bay...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (12/6)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Southern Utah Post Mormon Association to meet December 6th at the Red Lion in St. George
[Southern Utah Pos...]
Christmas Party ~ Diamond Head Area
[Oahu Post Mormon ...]
Third Thirsty Thursday @ Freemont Street 11/19/15
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (11/1)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Southern Utah Postmormon Association to meet November 1st at the Red Lion in St. George
[Southern Utah Pos...]
NEW GROUP MEETING SCHEDULE!
[San Diego Post-Mo...]
Book of Mormon Tories
by Chris Sexton
Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
by Barney
Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2
Post-mormon Roles
sam2
Post-mormon Roles
former victim
The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder
Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT
Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother
Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2
FACEBOOK INFO
Crissy
FACEBOOK INFO
Barn
October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet
October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie
Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
exmoinaz
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned
The Mormon Mask
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Las Vegas Meetup--Jazz in the Park Saturday May 10 6:30PM
onendagus
Resignation Letter to My Family
ShadowSage
Resignation Letter to My Family
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Guru Busters
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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Why resign??
Posted: 28 January 2016 01:25 PM [ Ignore ]
leftasteen
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I left the church as a teenager over 30 years ago, but never officially resigned.
Yes, the missionaries try to visit, but that's not hard to deal with. It can be fun sometimes.
So my question is: Why resign?
Isn't resigning an admission that LDS paperwork and ceremonies may have some actual significance?
I don't believe when I die, I will be greeted by someone who will care one bit what LDS archive files contain.
I enjoy the occassional chance to make a young missionary question what he is doing.
I enjoy showing current members that "apostates" can also be good people.
I think all their ordinances, blessings, certificates, and recordkeeping are all meaningless mumbo jumbo.
I actually think it's funny, that i am here and yet their records say I am a saint. Screw them and their big file cabinets in heaven.
So, is there a good reason to go to the trouble of formally resigning?
Posted: 28 January 2016 02:50 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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leftasteen:
I left the church as a teenager over 30 years ago, but never officially resigned.
Yes, the missionaries try to visit, but that's not hard to deal with. It can be fun sometimes.
So my question is: Why resign?
Isn't resigning an admission that LDS paperwork and ceremonies may have some actual significance?
I don't believe when I die, I will be greeted by someone who will care one bit what LDS archive files contain.
I enjoy the occassional chance to make a young missionary question what he is doing.
I enjoy showing current members that "apostates" can also be good people.
I think all their ordinances, blessings, certificates, and recordkeeping are all meaningless mumbo jumbo.
I actually think it's funny, that i am here and yet their records say I am a saint. Screw them and their big file cabinets in heaven.
So, is there a good reason to go to the trouble of formally resigning?
[ ] If you are constantly harassed by the church, resigning is the only way to get them to leave you alone.
I served in bishoprics with 2 different bishops. One had a "bishop's list" with names that he asked that nobody contact, out of respect for their wishes not to be disturbed by anyone in the church. The second bishop took that list as a challenge.
If that second type of bishop (or other priesthood leader) ever gets hold of your name, it will be worth resigning.
Also, I've heard that for those with TBM spouses (or other family members), often the believer holds out hope that this is just a phase the non-believer is going through and will eventually have their heart softened the prayers and supplications of others. Resignation lets the believing spouse/family member know that the non-believer is serious.
[ ] Someone here (can't remember who ) has a quote in their signature line from the Amy Farrah Fowler character on The Big Bang Theory. "I don't object to the concept of a deity, but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance." Really, TBMs expect that there will be one final roll call with the great book of life, and if your name has been blotted out, it's off to a lesser kingdom with you! (and off with your genitalia, as some are wont to speculate)
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Posted: 28 January 2016 03:04 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Tessa
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Some folks like the "official letter" that really has no value, as 110 years, the church will rebaptise you anyway via the census records.
It's mainly for the person who submits, making them feel like they're doing something for ethics.
But it's really not useful.
People actually are NEVER removed from any church document.
It's all stored in the Granite Vault.
So...since you "left the church" and have stopped the vacuum-sucking of money from your wallet/purse, you no longer are a member in any real sense.
You don't support the institution.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 28 January 2016 04:39 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Pros and cons. Being close enough to be seen by the devout and to be a source of consternation and befuddlement, well there's certainly merit in that option! I like the way your mind works!
Another view: Two threads after this one (http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/42054/#620812) is a lovely account of one person's rejoicing in having resigned.
So there are probably lots of mixed answers to your question. I know that I someday want to officially resign. It will be my final phtbtbltp! at the hierarchy, theological nonsense, and fraud, my little departing act of mooning the Mormon church.
It will also be my act of loyalty to the younger me who spent years wanting to die for all my perceived defects, virtually proven to me by Heavenly Father's refusal to answer my prayers.
Hey young Wedgie, this resignation's for you! There's nothing wrong with you kid. But your religion, oh my hell! That sucker has got to go!
Posted: 28 January 2016 09:05 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Zelph the White
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Joined 2015-06-16
For me, resigning was fulfilling. I can see why it might not be for some people. It meant a lot to me personally. It was kind of my way of mentally/emotionally closing the last chapter on a terrible book and starting fresh.
I know the stuff about how they will continue to keep my information with a little asterisk or something. That's fine. That's not why I resigned. I did it to give myself closure. I have a folder in my file cabinet with my baptism/ordination certificates, patriarchal blessing and mission call. Now it has the letter I sent and the letter I got back from the Church.
It was also my own way of making a statement to them. A big F*** YOU to the organization. The only thing that makes me regret it a little is that when my family catches wind of it, they will be pained to learn I took such a drastic measure. In their eyes, this will mean I'm blotted out of the Lamb's book of life and therefore out of the family.
Posted: 28 January 2016 09:29 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
Free2Live
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Joined 2012-09-01
leftasteen:
I left the church as a teenager over 30 years ago, but never officially resigned.
Yes, the missionaries try to visit, but that's not hard to deal with. It can be fun sometimes.
So my question is: Why resign?
Isn't resigning an admission that LDS paperwork and ceremonies may have some actual significance?
I don't believe when I die, I will be greeted by someone who will care one bit what LDS archive files contain.
I enjoy the occassional chance to make a young missionary question what he is doing.
I enjoy showing current members that "apostates" can also be good people.
I think all their ordinances, blessings, certificates, and recordkeeping are all meaningless mumbo jumbo.
I actually think it's funny, that i am here and yet their records say I am a saint. Screw them and their big file cabinets in heaven.
So, is there a good reason to go to the trouble of formally resigning?
Resigning has no weight as to a real god force damnation or bliss reward in an eternal next life. Resigning does help in this life by pulling out the shrapnel inflicted by the cult. Resigning cuts the connective leash. Resigning means that one no longer advertises and represents the mormon corporation. Resigning marks autonomy. Resigning for me meant finalization and a chance to start to heal. It was like the theoretical baptism where resignation washed off the ignoble sins of lds grime. Resigning is like incinerating that black name tag worn by the mission mormonaries. It gets rid of their label as you live your own life the way you choose. Resigning gives distance away from whitewashed stories, murders, and fraud galore. Resigning means realignment with truth spirituality and love. Resigning isn't about them and their piles of records. Resigning is about a personal declaration of Independence. That is the way I lived it. There is no supreme court ruling that says you have to resign.
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.
Posted: 28 January 2016 09:31 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
finex
Long Timer
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Joined 2013-01-08
leftasteen:
I left the church as a teenager over 30 years ago, but never officially resigned.
Yes, the missionaries try to visit, but that's not hard to deal with. It can be fun sometimes.
So my question is: Why resign?
Isn't resigning an admission that LDS paperwork and ceremonies may have some actual significance?
I don't believe when I die, I will be greeted by someone who will care one bit what LDS archive files contain.
I enjoy the occassional chance to make a young missionary question what he is doing.
I enjoy showing current members that "apostates" can also be good people.
I think all their ordinances, blessings, certificates, and recordkeeping are all meaningless mumbo jumbo.
I actually think it's funny, that i am here and yet their records say I am a saint. Screw them and their big file cabinets in heaven.
So, is there a good reason to go to the trouble of formally resigning?
The choice is yours. I can only relay my own experience on the subject and that does not necessarily mean you'll have a similar experience that I had when I resigned.
I left the church at the age of 17. At that time I didn't officially resign and was formally a member of the church also according to the census records (yes around here the government keeps the record of who belongs to which denomination and accurately tracks how many members each denomination has, btw. the local LDS church claims to have about 50% more members than the census record shows).
So it took me over 10 years before I went to the magistrate to announce that I wished to resign from TCSS. During those 10 years the home teachers called in couple of times a year to check if they could come and visit, but I always politely declined. I also received invitation letters to church events etc. Eventually I decided that it's time to go and resign officially and because the law allows that I don't have to deal with the church in any way if I wanted to resign and the matter can be simply handled via magistrate office I did just that. So I went to the magistrate officesigned a paper that I wanted to resign my membership in TSCC and that's it. The magistrate office sent the notification to the local TSCC that I had resigned and that's it. Once that had been done I was very surpriced how relieved I felt. Even though it was over 10 years since my last visit to the church and I considered myself compeletely separated from the church I felt like a huge boulder was dropped off from my back.
Whether this could happen to you I do not know, but this is what I experienced. One should never under estimate the psychological impacts such formal actions have in your mind and for this reason I would encourage everyone to consider seirously formal resignation. Sure there can be serious reasons why one shouldn't resign like risk of losing a job, rental home, family relationships etc. So the matter has to be individually considered, but if such personal reasons do not exist then I would strongly encourage to "cut the cord" also formally as you never know how much mental baggage the formal memberships still carries with you.
Posted: 29 January 2016 06:33 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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maynardg
Long Timer
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Joined 2014-07-23
Resign or not resign is personal on so many levels(I know, no duh). Just like the reasons for leaving the church. But we all share because someone out there sees our posts and finds comfort -- sounds like me/I can identify with that. After 57 years of deception, resigning for me was my AMFIAG! It was personally satisfying for me. It was a message sent to my family(I did send them a three page email explaining why I was leaving the church -- I spared them the HORSESHIT factor choosing to say that I thought it was all BS -- I am 68 years old and for many years I have muzzled my "evil twin" but now I let him loose from time to time and if people don't like -- tough shit!) that I choose to no longer be a member of the morg. It was a message to my bishop(a real good guy) that I didn't want to become a "project". So far and with little to no seismic tremors, everyone has honored/respected my decision -- something for which I am grateful and probably why relationships so far have been amicable(not the case for some who have left the morg). Resigning for me was closure -- not a whimsical decision made on an impulse -- things had been festering for a long time until it finally came to a head. I am done, period. I have made my decision, period. I am no longer going to be manipulated/harranged/brainwashed by the morg, ever, period. I have found the TRUTH, and it has made me FREE, and that is PRICELESS!
‹‹ Nevermo friend trying to stop a baptism requests help in doing so I wonder how many Missionaries are bringing home the Zika Virus, from Latin America??!! ››
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