Friday, February 26, 2016
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Religion can reduce stress
Posted by Ruth Anthony-Gardner on February 8, 2016 at 6:03pm in Theism, Deism, & All Things Religious
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Religion linked to reduced levels of stress hormones in young Ameri...
In 2015 Philly's HumanLight celebration fizzled out. There was never enough singing and emotional support, always too much lecturing. I'm not surprised.
Atheists' fear of music, and joy, of touch and ritual hold us back. Attending Christian (I assume) churches seems to reduce cortisol over the long term for African-Americans. We can't compete.
Compared with Whites, Black Americans have high levels of an important stress hormone called cortisol circulating in their bloodstream.
Blacks in the USA are also more likely to be religious than Whites. Shervin Assari, at the University of Michigan, and colleagues, wondered if this might affect their cortisol levels.
They examined 200 black participants in the Flint Adolescent study. This was a 18-year study following Black, White, or bi-racial youth who were at high risk for substance use and school dropout.
In 1994, when they were about 15 years old, they were asked about their religious activities (how often they went to Church, etc). Then, six years later, the amount of cortisol in their saliva was measured.
On average, being involved in religious activities when young was associated with a major reduction in stress levels in later life. Religion was far more important than the other factors they looked at, such parental employment and whether the parents were divorced.
I suspect African-American churches provide a refuge from harassment and source of validation that our too-white too-narrow Atheism lacks. If Atheist cohesion rested upon diversity and true affirmation of everyone's worth, instead of being mainly anti-theistic, we'd meet our needs better. In our current form, we aren't even a refuge from sexism and racism, though Atheist Nexus comes closer to that than some other Atheist institutions.
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Permalink Reply by Loren Miller on February 8, 2016 at 6:55pm
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality of happiness, and by no means a necessity of life.
-- George Bernard Shaw
I don't think it matters whether you're talking about ethanol or cortisol, the basic premise remains the same.
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Permalink Reply by Ruth Anthony-Gardner on February 9, 2016 at 4:53pm
This was an 18 year study that measured cortisol, not a poll of "How stressed do you feel?" or "How happy are you?". Facts are facts, even when they don't suit us. If you had a study showing that 18 years of "happiness of credulity" had positive physiological impact, then long term "happiness of credulity" counts as a treatment rather than a placebo.
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Permalink Reply by Loren Miller on February 9, 2016 at 5:05pm
Ruth, I don't give a ripe dump if it was a 100-year study. It still amounts to a de-facto endorsement of subscription to fantasy as a means of being happy. It justifies lying and being lied to, and the worst part of the whole thing is that such lying en masse can actually be successful.
But here's the real question: is it the belief that does the work or the community? Further question: how about one person on his own, without a religious community. How much cortisol does he generate?
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Permalink Reply by Grinning Cat on February 9, 2016 at 10:11pm
It's worth trying to find just what helped those young people have lower stress hormone levels years later, and how to do similar good without the lies/fantasy/superstition. (I see a parallel to folk remedies being studied and helping to advance evidence-based medicine.)
There are various nontheistic "unchurch" communities such as Ethical Culture groups and Sunday Assemblies. There are also solitary practitioners of theistic religions such as Wicca.
And I'll echo Ruth, below: "Why can't Atheists validate one another without fantasy? Belonging isn't necessarily about following crowds or being a sheep."
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Permalink Reply by Dr. Allan H. Clark 19 hours ago
It's not hard to understand how religious beliefs and belonging to a supportive community could lower stress significantly and facing the realities of existence could raise them. However, not facing realities prohibits developing a realistic philosophy to cope with those realities.
The African-American community has suffered so much and their churches have been one source of comfort. It will be a long time before that changes and that is understandable.
Ridding ourselves of religious myths is an essential step forward in human progress. Finding better ideas is the only long term hope, but it is a slow and cumbersome process. I think there is reason to hope because I see most people's beliefs as much weaker than in the past.
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Permalink Reply by Loren Miller 19 hours ago
Jeremiah Camara might argue that point a bit, Allan. His recent film, Contradiction: A Matter of Faith, documents how the church may have less served the African-American community than vice versa. I was introduced to this film at the 38th Annual FFRF National Convention, and it left a powerful impression
No doubt church community is a powerful mechanism toward the reduction of individual stress, but it comes with a price tag attached, and the maintenance of irrational belief systems creates a price we all pay.
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Permalink Reply by Dr. Allan H. Clark 17 hours ago
And there are surely many people here who could testify to the stress that a religious family/community has imposed on them because they found belief difficult or impossible.
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Permalink Reply by Bertold Brautigan on February 8, 2016 at 7:14pm
So . . . we need to start having bake sales? It would seem that the type of person who tends not to follow the crowd in his/her thinking would also tend not to follow crowds to brick and mortar events. Receiving validation via a fantasy held in common might well be comforting, but given the choice I think I'll take stress.
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Permalink Reply by Ruth Anthony-Gardner on February 9, 2016 at 4:55pm
Why can't Atheists validate one another without fantasy? Belonging isn't necessarily about following crowds or being a sheep.
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Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on February 10, 2016 at 12:47am
If bake sales, participating with others turns one on, go for it. If one finds comfort with others, get the phone book out and call a few. If one likes to debate, find a worthy foe for combat. If one finds validation in doing for others, there are lots of things one can do. One male friend goes to the hospital baby ward and holds babies who are long-term babies and he just sits, rocks, hums and then goes home feeling better.
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Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on February 10, 2016 at 12:55am
Oh, I forgot to mention the English thespian who went to Juvenile Detention and told them stories that shivered their livers. The kids loved him and he was their best advocate when it came time for release.
And then, there is the woman who wears a big heavy belt and walks several dogs at a time because she doesn't have anything else to do. She connects their leashes to her belt and I am not sure i she walks them or they walk her.
I have another interesting friend who makes clay houses. He has been battling cancer and the only way he can get his mind off his misery is when designing and creating these treasures. It turns out he is able to sell them and suppliment his pension.
I'll send a few photos and they will make you laugh.
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Permalink Reply by Daniel W on February 12, 2016 at 8:19am
Joan, I would love to see those photos.
My dad carved animals from wood, leaving them with a beautiful wood grain finish. I have some, treasures for me.
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Religion can reduce stress
Posted by Ruth Anthony-Gardner on February 8, 2016 at 6:03pm in Theism, Deism, & All Things Religious
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Religion linked to reduced levels of stress hormones in young Ameri...
In 2015 Philly's HumanLight celebration fizzled out. There was never enough singing and emotional support, always too much lecturing. I'm not surprised.
Atheists' fear of music, and joy, of touch and ritual hold us back. Attending Christian (I assume) churches seems to reduce cortisol over the long term for African-Americans. We can't compete.
Compared with Whites, Black Americans have high levels of an important stress hormone called cortisol circulating in their bloodstream.
Blacks in the USA are also more likely to be religious than Whites. Shervin Assari, at the University of Michigan, and colleagues, wondered if this might affect their cortisol levels.
They examined 200 black participants in the Flint Adolescent study. This was a 18-year study following Black, White, or bi-racial youth who were at high risk for substance use and school dropout.
In 1994, when they were about 15 years old, they were asked about their religious activities (how often they went to Church, etc). Then, six years later, the amount of cortisol in their saliva was measured.
On average, being involved in religious activities when young was associated with a major reduction in stress levels in later life. Religion was far more important than the other factors they looked at, such parental employment and whether the parents were divorced.
I suspect African-American churches provide a refuge from harassment and source of validation that our too-white too-narrow Atheism lacks. If Atheist cohesion rested upon diversity and true affirmation of everyone's worth, instead of being mainly anti-theistic, we'd meet our needs better. In our current form, we aren't even a refuge from sexism and racism, though Atheist Nexus comes closer to that than some other Atheist institutions.
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Permalink Reply by Daniel W on February 12, 2016 at 8:18am
BB, I'll make some pumpkin bread - organic home grown pumpkin, and free range chicken eggs in the recipe!
I can also make a yummy apple pie, with vanilla-cinnamon in the filling.
That'll get your cortisol down!
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Permalink Reply by Michael Penn on February 9, 2016 at 3:53pm
Regardless of ethnicity I believe the lower stress level is because people feel they are watched over by a sky daddy, their sins are forgiven, and they have a future life in heaven. It's also possible that blacks are more into religion than whites regardless of their cortisol levels. Keep in mind that the religious might even openly sin, asking forgiveness for it later. King David did this in the Bible.
There is also many non-believers who run around daily scared to death. They are never going to be religious but are like Chicken Little. To them there is always some part of the sky falling.
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Permalink Reply by Ruth Anthony-Gardner on February 9, 2016 at 5:01pm
When I'm really anxious and stressed, I focus on activities to reduce it. If I had high cortisol all of the time, and there was a history of church-going reducing stress in my family or among my peers, I'd find church more attractive too.
Your point about implicit permission to break a moral code because there's ready forgiveness is interesting. That probably does reduce stress by building in some "give" to rigid demands.
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Permalink Reply by Gary S on February 9, 2016 at 6:16pm
"I care to live only to entice people to look at Nature's loveliness." - John Muir
"I go to nature to be soothed and healed, and to have my senses put in order." - John Burroughs
"Nature teaches more than she preaches." - John Burroughs
We all have different things that cause our cortisol to do its things. I have had some work things do it for me and as Muir and Burroughs said going out into nature also does many things, that darn geography minor I did in college.
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Permalink Reply by Daniel W on February 12, 2016 at 8:20am
Gary, nature's temple is far more soothing than that of religious despots. I'll take admiring a great tree any day, over admiring a corpse nailed to wooden beams.
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Permalink Reply by Bertold Brautigan on February 12, 2016 at 8:31am
A nice distinction!
Corpse worship:
Everything dies baby that's a fact
But maybe everything that dies someday comes back
--Bruce Springsteen
Tree worship:
Can't you see that the human name
Doesn't mean shit to a tree
--Jefferson Airplane
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Permalink Reply by tom sarbeck on February 12, 2016 at 10:01am
Ma and Pa Nature didn't care if I admired a tree, but those SOBs in Rome who wanted me to admire that corpse wanted everything I had and everything I would ever get.
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Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on February 9, 2016 at 11:50pm
Well, I don't know as much as I think I know, and that is for sure. However, my training is in Applied Behavioral Science, and the people who research in this field discovered the prison studies of prisoners and guards, and family and group behaviors. They sorted out the aggressive environments vs democratic ones. The big story made little.
What are the factors that religious people have in their lifestyles that others may not?
They take time to participate in congregational activity, group assembly for lectures, prayers, music, and meditation;
They sit quietly with incense and music that quiets them;
They say prayers, which are real conversations that come from a person's experiences, whether they be mad, glad, sad, afraid, and talk to god, which is talking to themselves;
They express appreciation and gratitude for what others do for them while their prayers are really self-talk;
They meet informally and regularly with others who share their values and form friendships, some that last a lifetime.
What are the factors that non-religious people can do to reduce stress?
They can take time for family and friends activities, group discussions, music, dancing, meditation;
They can sit quietly by themselves or with others with a sensory environment of pleasant sights, refreshing aromas, delicious tastes, and beautiful music;
They can learn techniques of stress management, including deep breathing, meditation, and contemplation while walking or sitting, they can empty their minds of stressful thoughts as taught by Buddhists, or they can think calmly what it is that they want to happen and explore various options;
They can acknowledge appreciation and gratitude for what others do for them, they may even express these to the people that contribute to their lives;
They can meet informally and regularly with family, friends, and they can participate in sports, attend concerts or performances, picnics, seasonal change celebrations, weddings, birthdays, anniversaries, memorial services together.
In our family, they are great enthusiasts for machines so there is a regular get together of the motorbike group, and the bicycle rides. We also have the winter festival with snowmobiles, burning of the yule log, and storytelling. In the summer, all the kids gather around the burning pit and tell ghost stories. We use flashlights to shine up over our faces ... that's scary for kids.
You can probably think of other things that made church fun or interesting and find a way to translate that into a non-religious event.
One thing I know for sure, it takes time, effort, money, patience and teamwork to put together a group celebration. That is part of the fun!
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Permalink Reply by tom sarbeck on February 10, 2016 at 12:16pm
During my two years in a Catholic school taught by nuns, I didn't count how many times:
1) nuns asked if we entertain bad (aka "sexual") thoughts, and
2) we boys whispered to each other our reply, "No, Sister, they entertain me."
During my two years in a Catholic school taught by Jesuits (all males), none ever asked.
Who will check the cortisol level in boys who are entertaining themselves thusly?
Who will fund such studies?
The government won't; xian Republicans will go crazy.
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Permalink Reply by Dyslexic's DOG on February 11, 2016 at 6:29am
I think Alain de Botton, who is one of my favourite atheist philosophers does a pretty good job at explaining what religion does right and why atheism should borrow and include these lessons on happiness that religion has discovered over the millenniums.
Religion is the oldest human establishment aimed at social cohesiveness and harbouring individual happiness for its own devious purposes.
It has much that is valuable to learn from, and likely why religions still hold keys to human happiness, atheism lacks, for now.
https://www.ted.com/talks/alain_de_botton_atheism_2_0?language=en#t...
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Permalink Reply by tom sarbeck on February 11, 2016 at 7:30am
Dawg, I read some of de Botton's stuff and decided that he's a wanna-be theist.
A nickel says he will have a deathbed conversion back to the theism he longs for.
Religion is the oldest human establishment aimed at social cohesiveness and harbouring individual happiness for its own devious purposes.
Not true.
What did pre-homo species have that resulted in social cohesiveness and harboured individual happiness?
They had "pecking orders", in which the strongest individuals imposed order on weaker individuals.
With the pecking order we know as religion, individuals who were physically non-dominant created a competing pecking order.
A government has to maintain a monopoly on violence.
A religion has to maintain several monopolies. They include a hope for a post-life reward, a fear of a post-life punishment, the in-life security of a community of believers, and emotions such as guilt and shame.
In America's constitution, these two pecking orders have a wall of separation between them.
There are also other pecking orders; two of them are business and organized crime.
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Permalink Reply by Michael Penn on February 11, 2016 at 8:07am
Yes, but a deathbed conversion, something that theists cherish and claim for many as true when it was not, actually shows both doubt and fear. In my church days I heard of a bogus deathbed conversion for Edison. I doubt very seriously that anything even close to it ever happened.
Even as an atheist I have some doubt, but I have no fear. Only theism can instill fear.
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Religion can reduce stress
Posted by Ruth Anthony-Gardner on February 8, 2016 at 6:03pm in Theism, Deism, & All Things Religious
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Religion linked to reduced levels of stress hormones in young Ameri...
In 2015 Philly's HumanLight celebration fizzled out. There was never enough singing and emotional support, always too much lecturing. I'm not surprised.
Atheists' fear of music, and joy, of touch and ritual hold us back. Attending Christian (I assume) churches seems to reduce cortisol over the long term for African-Americans. We can't compete.
Compared with Whites, Black Americans have high levels of an important stress hormone called cortisol circulating in their bloodstream.
Blacks in the USA are also more likely to be religious than Whites. Shervin Assari, at the University of Michigan, and colleagues, wondered if this might affect their cortisol levels.
They examined 200 black participants in the Flint Adolescent study. This was a 18-year study following Black, White, or bi-racial youth who were at high risk for substance use and school dropout.
In 1994, when they were about 15 years old, they were asked about their religious activities (how often they went to Church, etc). Then, six years later, the amount of cortisol in their saliva was measured.
On average, being involved in religious activities when young was associated with a major reduction in stress levels in later life. Religion was far more important than the other factors they looked at, such parental employment and whether the parents were divorced.
I suspect African-American churches provide a refuge from harassment and source of validation that our too-white too-narrow Atheism lacks. If Atheist cohesion rested upon diversity and true affirmation of everyone's worth, instead of being mainly anti-theistic, we'd meet our needs better. In our current form, we aren't even a refuge from sexism and racism, though Atheist Nexus comes closer to that than some other Atheist institutions.
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Permalink Reply by Daniel W on February 11, 2016 at 8:56am
Ruth, thank you for posting this.
It's important to note the study is observational. We can take from it our own inferences, but correlation is not causation. It COULD be that people with lower cortisol levels feel more comfortable in churches, and therefore one cause of being religious is one's cortisol level, a biologic cause for religiosity. Or, it could be that religiosity does indeed reduce cortisol level.
I really agree with you that we need to work on a welcoming environment for a widening demographic in atheism / humanism. Even online, we are fractured into narrow demographics. It has been pointed out that on Nexus, we tend to be older and whiter. I try to welcome people as they sign on - although others do a better job than I do - especially Terry and Randy. That welcome doesnot bring a lot of new members into the active conversation, but maybe is helpful anyway. I hope so.
Churches do provide a sense of community. Some church activities, such as singing hymns, seem to be so moving as to be hypnotic. When someone in our workplace morning huddles found an excuse to sing "Amazing Grace", there was almost rapturous response. While at the same time, I was silently seething.
I like to read Sincere Kirabo on Patheos. I think he's one of the promising young voices in the movement, and discusses both racial justice and atheism.
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Permalink Reply by Michael Penn on February 11, 2016 at 9:24am
At one point I wanted "Amazing Grace" played on bagpipes at my funeral. The song always made me cry. Today if I hear it I am silently seething.
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Permalink Reply by Grinning Cat on February 13, 2016 at 10:02am
For me, knowing alternate lyrics helps defuse religious songs (especially during the winter holiday season!).
A couple of sources I've found:http://george.speckert.com/songbook/pages/contents.html
http://webspace.webring.com/people/lu/um_6974/x_hymnal.html
http://home.alphalink.com.au/~jperkins/HumanistSongs.htm
And here are some good lyrics for the tune "New Britain" (what "Amazing Grace" is sung to):
A Humanist Credo (tune: Amazing Grace)
John Hoad (1927-2011), 1980-1994 Leader of the St. Louis Ethical Society
[source: "Ethical Society Heritage Songs"]
1.Where shall the human spirit turn when ancient creeds are dead?
What shall our faith as fuel burn when all our Faiths have fled?
2.We trust the human spirit still, the tide that brought us here;
the sense of good, the human will to learn the way of care.
3.The way is hard, and wrong is strong, but we shall triumph yet
as more will join the human song to give, as much as get.
4.To seek the best in you and me, to share and care for earth,
to serve a new humanity, and bring world-peace to birth.
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Permalink Reply by Grinning Cat on February 16, 2016 at 11:03pm
The Pastafarians' winter holiday display on the Michigan capitol grounds included Chris Beckstrom's accordion playing, including a sprightly wordless rendition of the "Amazing Grace" tune.
Hit the link for a video: "Flying Spaghetti Monster Comes to Capitol", Lansing State Journal, Dec. 18, 2015. (I can't figure out how to embed the video directly without it autoplaying.)
(See also "The Lansing capitol display looks great", Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Dec. 26, 2015)
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Permalink Reply by Dyslexic's DOG on February 13, 2016 at 7:26am
Though the other side of the coin is that religion can itself create unnecessary and irrational stresses, which in some cases have led to suicides, such as the well known puberty suicides of young girls who thought the blood meant that they had sinned against god. I had tried to help a Children Of God member lose his fear that his family was damned because they were non-believers and he wanted them with him in Heaven, but could not convince them god exists. He was desperate and his family were desperate to get him away from the religion, so it created stresses for the entire family, and he was certainly never happy.
I couldn't help him, his wife and children left him, he had to face his fear on his own, last I heard, he was in a psychiatric hospital after his second nervous breakdown, still clutching his Bible.
So, nobody can tell me that religion produces happiness for everyone.
There are too many suffering because of religion.
I've seen the same stress caused when people get sucked into the Jehovah Witnesses who convert them at alcohol and drug rehabilitation clinics/meetings. They are told to leave their families of doubters and no longer associate with them.
Imagine the stresses, for the victim who wants his family to suddenly convert and the family who is just about to lose a parent/spouse.
It happens all the time and it is sickening.
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Permalink Reply by Michael Penn on February 13, 2016 at 8:58am
Just yesterday I'm leaving Dollar Tree and an old man starts talking about the weather. I replied and soon we are at the point of "the world can't stand much longer." This old guy is a former Baptist and now JW who cannot see that a rapid spread of knowledge, instantly and worldwide, brings many to that opinion. In 1950 nobody gave a damn what went on in Syria, Iran, Russia, or other parts of the world so much. News of anywhere today is all lumped together just like your local weather report. If you want to talk about "fulfilled prophesy" and believe that anything was said of old that will come to happen, then I'm sure you will find much that has come to be.
This guy even gets into "there shall be wars and rumors of wars" to which I told him this is a normal reaction anytime you have communication in society. It's a no brainer prediction.
He goes on into God's name being removed from the holy scriptures and told me of a giant piece of wood in St. Louis, bent in such a fashion that it could not have happened naturally, and it has "Tetragrammaton" carved on it. I said, "OK, the unpronounceable name, " and I smiled. He then says it's JHVH in scripture to which I added that the JW's have put in the vowels to get the name "Jehovah." (My grandparents were JW''s.)
At this point I also wonder why it was the English vowels? What would the name of God be if we added vowels from other languages? Since English was not the original, why is it the language now? Many people do not wonder of these things, but this old gentleman seemed like they type that would pray and moan, covered in ashes and sack cloth. He just could not understand why I no longer believe and tell him there is no evidence.
The mode of his sincerity seemed enough to drive some to suicide. He was overly concerned and disturbed that you are not concerned as well.
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Permalink Reply by tom sarbeck on February 13, 2016 at 7:42pm
Michael, some of the products of natural selection will fail.
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A Creationist Presidential Candidate?
Posted by matthew greenberg on November 19, 2012 at 11:12am in Science
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http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2012/11/19/15282119-rubio-on-eart...
imo, it's an automatic disqualifier. however it is further evidence that the GOP may not be interested in distancing itself from its Evangelical base. i highly doubt that Rubio actually believes in a young earth, but his reluctance to plainly discuss a scientific fact for fear of alienating himself from the loons that he wants to vote for him means that he is unqualified for the highest office in the land.
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Permalink Reply by Loren Miller on November 19, 2012 at 11:49am
If the GOP intends to pull themselves back from a rightward shift unprecedented in their history, then Rubio is NOT the answer for 2016! When a political party courts a non-scientifically educated audience like this, all it does is magnify their irrelevance.
Can we all grow up now and acknowledge once and for all that two plus two does indeed equal four???
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Permalink Reply by matthew greenberg on November 19, 2012 at 12:11pm
you just know he's their great "brown hope". and if not him, who? Jindal? despite his recent moderate rhetoric, Jindal is as right wing as any of them. to me, only Chris Christie is even remotely electable given the names that have been floated for '16. and his party is still sore at him for, you know, actually working with the President. so that leaves Jeb Bush, and frankly, i can't imagine that the electorate is prepared for another President Bush. or maybe Paul Ryan? which seems laughable right now.
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Permalink Reply by Pat on November 19, 2012 at 12:30pm
On of the things I found fascinating in the post-mortem of the election was everyone talking about the changing demographics of the US. Watching Bill Maher last Friday, one of the guests was an Hispanic lady who campaigned for Romney. She made a telling statement regarding Romney's post-election comment about President Obama winning because of all of his "freebie give aways." She stated she was done with Romney forever.
If the GOP is to remain relevant, they need to grow a backbone - not dissimilar to Barry Goldwater who openly despised and ridiculed the evangelicals like Jerry Falwell. If they're going to garner more than just a base of scared, old, anti-scientific, and religious white people, they need someone to come out and espouse such facts, as Loren said, that 2+2 really does equal 4, the earth is more than 6,000 years old, not everyone has the sexual orientation of Anita Bryant, and there are a lot of patriotic Americans whose skin color has deeper tones than Mitch McConnell.
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Permalink Reply by matthew greenberg on November 19, 2012 at 12:40pm
i saw that too, Pat. i call bullshit on her comment though. had this come out 2 weeks before the election she would have been defending Romney to the bitter end. it's easy to throw dirt on a dead guy.
i agree with the rest of what you wrote. problem is, i'm not sure they can do anything about it. they've cemented their place as the party of dumb, and there are far too many of their supporters who agree with the dumb/religious shit. they'd have to completely reverse so many of their deeply held beliefs that it just isn't feasible in 4 short years. maybe in the long haul they will, but it's gonna take some time and a lot more losses before it happens.
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Permalink Reply by Pat on November 19, 2012 at 7:03pm
Point well taken, about her supporting Romney 2 weeks before the election. You're correct in that it's easy to beat up a dead guy after the coroner has made his pronouncement - even if the body burps.
What concerns me is having a rational, and loyal, opposition. I'm not necessarily married to everything the Democrats say. And, I do think something seriously needs to be done about the economy. On that particular point, one could say I'm somewhat conservative, agreeing with Ron Paul on one point (NO, I have not gone batshit looney and agree with him on everything). That point being, if you're going to start cutting, start with Eisenhower's warning about the military/industrial complex. And, I'm a veteran!
But, the current GOP reminds of the old story of Edgar Allan Poe, The System of Doctor Tarr and Professor Fether. The inmates of the insane asylum are running the institution.
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Permalink Reply by James M. Martin on November 19, 2012 at 8:38pm
Someone is bound to remind you of this, but I might as well bring it up. When the full catastrophic lot was onstage at a debate, all GOPS, except John McCain, told the questioner that they did not believe in the theory of evolution. McCain had to spin it by saying he believed in evolution, but he also believed in glorious sunsets at mountain lakes, and -- i.e. he waltzed poetic with that sappy grin he sometimes wears. In other words, he fence-straddled. But the fact that about seven other GOP candidates (including Santorum, of course) told the moderator they did NOT accept the theory of evolution is just astonishingly bad. People the world over are laughing at us. And their answers, of course, identify them as -- you guessed it -- Creationists.
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Permalink Reply by eric stone 20 hours ago
this was tantamount to the Nazi's denying the theory of relativity because they didn't like the "race" of its author.
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Permalink Reply by matthew greenberg on November 20, 2012 at 8:27pm
http://www.salon.com/2012/11/20/erick_erickson_defends_rubio/
someone came to his defense. and sounded like an ignorant ass in the process. go figure.
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Permalink Reply by Pat on November 20, 2012 at 9:05pm
The difference between the atheist and secular set on the left and even the right is that while they and I can think the Earth is billions of years old and they and I can think there was a big bang starting it all, we really do not know for sure and they absolutely do not know what came before the big bang. But I do. Erick Erickson
Dear Erick,
There is one other item you failed to mention regarding the difference between you and I. Your ignorance, coupled with your insufferable and dangerous arrogance, in asserting absolute knowledge of something which is not (yet) known. To put it another way, you have faith. Faith being defined as a blind and unquestionable belief in something for which there is no evidence, no proof, nor any basis for belief in the real and rational world. I don't have faith, because I'm not a fucking idiot!
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Permalink Reply by matthew greenberg on November 20, 2012 at 9:09pm
exactafuckinglutely!
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Permalink Reply by eric stone 20 hours ago
faith also lets you evade all accountability for your wrongdoings since you do not believe there are objective facts about things.
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Permalink Reply by eric stone 20 hours ago
can you imagine be governed by this right wing fascist twerp who hates nonbelievers so much he can’t even say the word secular?
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A Creationist Presidential Candidate?
Posted by matthew greenberg on November 19, 2012 at 11:12am in Science
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http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2012/11/19/15282119-rubio-on-eart...
imo, it's an automatic disqualifier. however it is further evidence that the GOP may not be interested in distancing itself from its Evangelical base. i highly doubt that Rubio actually believes in a young earth, but his reluctance to plainly discuss a scientific fact for fear of alienating himself from the loons that he wants to vote for him means that he is unqualified for the highest office in the land.
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Permalink Reply by Dr. Allan H. Clark 19 hours ago
Rubio is at least an improvement on Trump: Rubio thinks God created the universe in six days; Trump thinks he did it himself.
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Permalink Reply by Loren Miller 19 hours ago
Maybe ... but with friends like him, who needs enemas?
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Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo 5 hours ago
Did I read this correctly? "enemas?" Ya, I read it right.
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Permalink Reply by eric stone 19 hours ago
Funny! But seriously don't you think that of the two Rubio is more of a threat to secularism?
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Permalink Reply by Bertold Brautigan 19 hours ago
I would take Trump before Rubio or Cruz for that very reason.
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Permalink Reply by Dr. Allan H. Clark 18 hours ago
They are all bad news of one sort or another, but I have a greater fear of Trump because he is so inexperienced and uninformed.
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Permalink Reply by Bertold Brautigan 17 hours ago
Yes, leave it to the Repuglicans to efficiently eliminate the marginally sane ones.
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Permalink Reply by Bertold Brautigan 16 hours ago
Rick Santorum and another Congress critter (Rep. Crescent Hardy, R, NV) were both stymied when asked, during endorsement statements for Rubio, to name one of Rubio's accomplishments. Cruz's claim to fame is he tried to stop the government again and he wants to impose Christian sharia on the country. They're both empty suits.
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Permalink Reply by Bertold Brautigan 17 hours ago
Matt Taibbi, Rolling Stone
(My emphases)
At the Verizon Giganto-Center in Manchester the night before the New Hampshire primary, Trump bounds onstage to raucous applause and the booming riffs of the Lennon-McCartney anthem "Revolution." The song is, hilariously, a cautionary tale about the perils of false prophets peddling mindless revolts, but Trump floats in on its grooves like it means the opposite. When you win as much as he does, who the hell cares what anything means?
. . .
in less than a year Trump has succeeded in turning the USA into a massive high school
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Permalink Reply by Loren Miller 17 hours ago
And again, I have to ask, where's the substance of Trump's campaign? Trump appears to be the apotheosis of sizzle, of delivering the right applause line at the right time, but I've yet to hear him speak substantively on POLICY of any sort in any serious detail.
So ... where's the beef, Donnie?
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Permalink Reply by Bertold Brautigan 17 hours ago
Substance? He don't need no stinkin' substance. (We found that out in 1979.)
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Permalink Reply by Dr. Allan H. Clark 16 hours ago
Even his signature issue—deporting 11.5 million illegal immigrants in twenty-four months—is without substance. That would require deporting over 15,750 every day for two years at a time when the immigration courts are underfunded and overbooked or else violating the law and not providing hearings at all.
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A Creationist Presidential Candidate?
Posted by matthew greenberg on November 19, 2012 at 11:12am in Science
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http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2012/11/19/15282119-rubio-on-eart...
imo, it's an automatic disqualifier. however it is further evidence that the GOP may not be interested in distancing itself from its Evangelical base. i highly doubt that Rubio actually believes in a young earth, but his reluctance to plainly discuss a scientific fact for fear of alienating himself from the loons that he wants to vote for him means that he is unqualified for the highest office in the land.
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Permalink Reply by Daniel W 15 hours ago
Haven't most of the modern era of presidents been creationist? I'm thinking at least, Eisenhauer, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon (not sure - Quaker), don't know about Ford, Carter was Baptist, Reagan looney tunes woo woo but probably creationist, Bush I, Not sure about Clinton but his sexualm proclivities suggest evangelical or Fundamentalist, Bush II?
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Marco Rubio gets into the clown car
Posted by Dr. Allan H. Clark on April 13, 2015 at 1:05pm in Politics
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Senator Rubio has thrown his hat in the ring and is running for President in 2016. People have forgotten his speech introducing Mitt Romney at the 2012 Republican National Convention, but it is available online:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0812/80493.html
It contains a lot of religious talk and stories of how he (Rubio) worked his way up from poverty, but the most disturbing line to me was this:
Our national motto is "In God we Trust," reminding us that faith in our Creator is the most important American value of all.
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Permalink Reply by George Kittrell on April 13, 2015 at 2:18pm
It always amazes me how so many are concerned with whether or not Obama is muslim or not yet they have no problem inserting their own religion. Change Rubio to an actual muslim and "our creator" to Allah and there'd be a firestorm on Fox news and the like.
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Permalink Reply by Dr. Allan H. Clark on April 13, 2015 at 3:39pm
Rubio made a mistake with his support of immigration reform and has been trying hard to court the Tea Party and evangelicals ever since by moving to the right and speaking their language on American values. To my way of thinking his quick retreat was too opportunistic to be believable—it just seemed aimed at preserving his Presidential ambitions.
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Permalink Reply by George Kittrell on April 13, 2015 at 4:51pm
Very true. I often think politicians are just putting on a show to get voters. Rubio might not be a full fledged wing nut.
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Permalink Reply by eric stone 18 hours ago
I don't think I've heard him ever say the word "secular." That would take genuine old fashioned hate if true.
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Permalink Reply by Loren Miller on April 13, 2015 at 2:33pm
Mr. Rubio, someone else can attempt to put their trust in a non-existent being. As an atheist, I put my trust first and foremost in my own effort, but a close second goes to proxies who (I hope) will act on my behalf in the government for the furtherance of my best interests. I do not see putting faith in an unseen god as advancing those interests in any manner, and anyone who thinks that doing so will help their own interests or those of this country immediately disqualify themselves from any serious consideration that I might hold for their candidacy. While both major political parties make a practice of this, I cannot help but notice that Republicans seem to put an especial emphasis on this fantasy.
Your policies as they are have already removed you from any chance of my vote. All your godding about is unlikely to restore it.
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Permalink Reply by Dr. Allan H. Clark on April 13, 2015 at 3:42pm
Rubio's statement seemed to carry the implication that atheists cannot be Americans because we do not share what he considers the principal American value.
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Permalink Reply by Pat on April 13, 2015 at 4:19pm
Rubio's just echoing Bush the First when the latter said, "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
Rub-Me-O The Wrong Way was just parroting an earlier version of the group-de-jure to hate that has been a hallmark of the right wing, Gays, people of color, immigrants, muslims, and of course - US.
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Permalink Reply by Pat on April 13, 2015 at 2:52pm
I've yet to see one individual on either the right or the left who would have the intestinal fortitude NOT to intone some magical, invisible, ju-ju spirit to the great masses who desperately want to believe - save possibly one. And, unfortunately IMHO, the senior senator from Massachusetts says she isn't running.
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Permalink Reply by Loren Miller on April 13, 2015 at 3:21pm
I suspect she doesn't want to run because she doesn't want the headaches, and I for one don't blame her. My sense is that she'd make a great president, but holding a gun to her head and insisting she run strikes me as piss poor form.
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Permalink Reply by Dr. Allan H. Clark on April 13, 2015 at 3:43pm
It's doubtful that a freethinker of any stripe could win the Presidency at this point. The best we can hope for is that candidates will recognize the existence of atheists without condemning them.
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Permalink Reply by Michael Penn on April 13, 2015 at 8:50pm
Pat, she said that just recently on Bill Maher's program on the 10th. Maher said he would give her a million if she would run.
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Permalink Reply by Loren Miller on April 13, 2015 at 9:58pm
And Warren insisted (for the umpti-umpth time) that she is NOT running. Now ... can we please take her at her word and figure that she is one person who will not yield to pressure from a draft?
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Marco Rubio gets into the clown car
Posted by Dr. Allan H. Clark on April 13, 2015 at 1:05pm in Politics
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Senator Rubio has thrown his hat in the ring and is running for President in 2016. People have forgotten his speech introducing Mitt Romney at the 2012 Republican National Convention, but it is available online:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0812/80493.html
It contains a lot of religious talk and stories of how he (Rubio) worked his way up from poverty, but the most disturbing line to me was this:
Our national motto is "In God we Trust," reminding us that faith in our Creator is the most important American value of all.
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Permalink Reply by Patrick Brown on April 13, 2015 at 7:01pm
About 4-5 years ago, I would've called myself a Rubio supporter. He was young and had some good things to say. Since he became popular enough to go for the presidency, he's had to pander to the "crazier" parts of the Republican party. Alas, what he's had to say since then has suffered. :-(
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Permalink Reply by Grinning Cat on April 13, 2015 at 7:17pm
Rubio's not conservative enough for some Tea Partiers:
[...] “I’m through with him,” said KrisAnne Hall, a tea-party activist and attorney from Florida, the Daily Beast reported. “He will never get my vote. … The overwhelming perception is that Marco Rubio is not a tea-party candidate.”
Another, Jason Hoyt, spoke similarly.
“Once he got into Washington, he had his sights set early on higher office,” he said. “He surrounded himself with people who were going to help him navigate Washington … and in that process, he disconnected from his base.”
Rubio’s not popular with hard-core immigration activists, either.
He was part of the bipartisan so-called Gang of Eight on Capitol Hill to reform immigration policy and press forward some amnesty allowances – a view many of his supporters decried as as betrayal of his conservative roots and stated platforms.
Meanwhile, others contend Rubio’s not even a natural-born citizen and therefore, ineligible to seek the presidency. Rubio’s parents [...] were not U.S. citizens at the time of his birth.
Rubio was born in Miami, Florida [...]
("Rubio runs, tea party turns on him", from the right-wing site WND.com)
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Permalink Reply by Susan Stanko on April 13, 2015 at 8:15pm
So Rubio was an anchor baby? LOL
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Permalink Reply by Michael Penn on April 13, 2015 at 8:47pm
Dr. Clark, I think that line disturbs me a lot also. The issue today doesn't seem to involve a clown car as much as it does a clown circus. Pandering to the religious today in our politics makes us appear as bad as Islamic countries. Maybe worse if this goes unaddressed. Is it just the uncertainty of everything that makes our politics all about god today? These clowns don't offer any solutions. They just want to take the money and run and clamor about god. Later if the sky didn't explode and Armageddon start, then they can still pander to the believers and quietly say "maybe god wasn't ready."
It's a smoke and mirrors do nothing attitude. Playing the game to where you are best friends with all the believers might actually get you elected, but once you are elected and start putting your god in our government you have stepped too far.
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Permalink Reply by Grinning Cat on April 13, 2015 at 8:52pm
You're preaching to the choir (and maybe even a couple of former theistic preachers) -- I'm not complaining!
The Matthew Shultz quote is still apropos:
"You're allowed to believe in a god. You're allowed to believe unicorns live in your shoes for all I care. [...] The day you start involving the unicorns in making decisions for this country, I have a BIG problem with you."
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Permalink Reply by Daniel W on April 13, 2015 at 9:52pm
I like TheOnion's breakdown of Rubio's resume.
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Permalink Reply by matthew greenberg on April 13, 2015 at 11:22pm
today i read that the guy who is backing Ted Cruz's super PAC may owe the IRS more than $6 billion. so far he's raised some $31 million for it, putting him on par with Jeb Bush. it just so happens that one of Cruz's favorite policy prescriptions is to end the IRS. convenient.
speaking of the clown car, Ben Carson said he will be announcing in early May. what that deranged, sleepy-eyed, former surgeon thinks he adds to the national debate is beyond me. he must have a book coming out.
i can't wait for the debates to start. must see tv imo.
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Permalink Reply by eric stone 20 hours ago
Can you imagine be governed by a right wing fascist twerp like Rubio who hates nonbelievers so much he can’t even say the word secular?
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Permalink Reply by Dr. Allan H. Clark 20 hours ago
Rubio is no longer a worry. Trump is the Republican nominee and Clinton will be the Democratic nominee. Trump will win over Clinton because she has no message and more baggage than the Queen Mary. Trump will crucify her in the debates with one insult after another and no one will be able to stop him. Remember Paula Jones? Travelgate? The stained dress? Don't worry, you don't have to remember—it's all coming back at you from Trump. Blacks will give Clinton the primaries, but they cannot protect her from old scandals.
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Permalink Reply by Daniel W 19 hours ago
I don't think Trump can say much about Bill Cliknton's infidelities. Pot meed Kettle's wife. The fact that Hillary Clinton handled it all with grace - in public - may well be to her credit. Americans seem to have much less problem with ifidelity than in the past. It seems like almost of their celebrity-pantheon are bedhopping regardless of marital status, and people just keep watching and adoring them. We might expect better of our politicians, I don't know.
I really don't think HIllary Clinton can be judged for Paula Jones, and Monika Lewinsky. I suspect they have a Franklin and Eleanor style marriage, which is not ready for prime time. Regardless, unless someone can dig up some dirt, I'm not aware of any scandals regarding Mrs. Clinton's bedtime behaviors.
Mrs. Clinton has her own financial scandles, but again if Trump brings them up, he opens himself for equal or more financial scandals.
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Permalink Reply by Dr. Allan H. Clark 19 hours ago
That is the one remaining hope: that Trump will prove as vulnerable to scandal-mongering as Clinton. Whether his raking up old scandals will be effective or not is a real question, but it adds to her reputation as unlikable.
Clinton's other weakness is that so far her campaign lacks a strong message.
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Permalink Reply by Bertold Brautigan 18 hours ago
The scary thing is that like Republicans in general, Trump seems impervious to criticisms no matter how cogent they are. His supporters don't care whether he adheres to usual standards like consistency or even a coherent analysis of issues. He got more evangelicals in Nevada than Cruz. He's popular because of his crassness and shallowness, not despite them. A vote for Hillary or Donald boils down to a vote for reason or irrationality, and in our age of endarkenment reason is on the run, at least here in the U S of A.
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Marco Rubio gets into the clown car
Posted by Dr. Allan H. Clark on April 13, 2015 at 1:05pm in Politics
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Senator Rubio has thrown his hat in the ring and is running for President in 2016. People have forgotten his speech introducing Mitt Romney at the 2012 Republican National Convention, but it is available online:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0812/80493.html
It contains a lot of religious talk and stories of how he (Rubio) worked his way up from poverty, but the most disturbing line to me was this:
Our national motto is "In God we Trust," reminding us that faith in our Creator is the most important American value of all.
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Permalink Reply by eric stone 18 hours ago
Yeah! It's a WAR ON DEMOCRACY IN USA. the Catholic Church, Fundamental Protestants, rich corporations and the wealthy all teaming up to bring the Enlightenment down. BTW did you know that the good old Vatican took the side of the South in our civil war. Hoped it would destroy that horrible democracy in the North.
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Permalink Reply by Bertold Brautigan 18 hours ago
Here's a lovely story regarding war on democracy. A WWII veteran who fought on Iwo Jima wasn't able to vote in Wisconsin because his veteran's ID card wasn't sufficient identification.
A 90-Year-Old Iwo Jima Veteran Couldn't Vote in Scott Walker's Wisc...
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Permalink Reply by eric stone 17 hours ago
Boy, did my grandparents pick the wrong country to emigrate to. They were suckered in to streets lined with gold and freedom.
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Just realized the Commie witch hunt in the 50s was the church's Inquisition brought to America
Posted by eric stone on February 24, 2016 at 8:05am in Politics
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Don't know why it took so long for me to see this but it clarifies things considerable. As Arthur Miller knew full well there were many parallels between the Salem witch hunt, anti-Communist hunt and the Holy Inquisition. And anti-Commie hunt was started by a devout Catholic, Joe McCarthy, at they urging of his priest. This just adds to the amount of damage this church has done on our democracy in revenge for the Enlightenment taking away its right to rule society.
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Permalink Reply by jay H 11 minutes ago
There are parallels, but I think it's mostly because the psychology of witchhunts whether religious or political tends to run in the same track.
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More American religious fascism
Posted by eric stone on February 25, 2016 at 4:16am in Theism, Deism, & All Things Religious
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In God We Trust brazenly added to Police cars in Pekin, IL and the cops (American Stormtrooopers??) seem ready to defiantly stick it in our faces and enforce it with their guns.
In%20God%20We%20Trust%20added%20to%20Police%20cars%20in%20Tazewell.doc
Just another reason that calling the US a democracy is laughable with the joke on us.
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Permalink Reply by Loren Miller yesterday
I have very little doubt but that the Freedom From Religion Foundation is already aware of that business and is all over it, possibly the ACLU and Americans United as well.
I see more and more such incidents lately, probably because the internet is out there to catch and report on them. It's possible, though that this may be the equivalent of Cheyne-Stokes breathing for religion in the US. They know they're on the ropes, especially with millennials, who are leaving religion in droves (presuming they were ever involved in the first place) and that their numbers are dropping. Knowing that, they'll grasp onto anything as a means of asserting themselves and a supposed domination of the culture which they are slowly but surely losing. And each time this happens, they get their hand smacked and told, "No, you don't get to do that anymore."
As with stubborn, wayward children, the lesson will have to be taught several times before the message sinks in.
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Permalink Reply by Bertold Brautigan 22 hours ago
I'm guessing no matter how many times the lesson is taught, they'll never get their hands out of the cookie jar until it's taken away, i.e. no more tax breaks for superstition.
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Permalink Reply by eric stone 19 hours ago
if we could stop the exemptions they would have much less money for their political activism. We need to sell the amount to the american people who generally resent being cheated even by theists.
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Permalink Reply by eric stone 19 hours ago
You're right. I got the story from Freethought Today. But I'm worried about the guns part of it. These guys can't wait to start shooting damned atheists.
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Permalink Reply by Jerry Wesner 18 hours ago
More of the "Amurca is a Cristyun country" stuff. Pity it doesn't result in better behavior.
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Political Discourse that's fun to read
Posted by Ruth Anthony-Gardner on November 1, 2015 at 11:33am in Politics
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Jonathan Chait's Marco Rubio’s Ideas About Climate and Energy Are Terrifyingly Stupid, dissecting Rubio's energy speech is so logical and concise it was fun to read. Would that all political discourse followed his example.
image source
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Permalink Reply by eric stone 21 hours ago
Can you imagine be governed by Rubio, a right wing fascist twerp who hates nonbelievers so much he can’t even say the word secular?
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coming out (TheraminTrees)
Posted by Loren Miller on December 2, 2015 at 8:48pm in Hang With Friends
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Whether as atheist, agnostic, gay / Lesbian or whatever, the process of coming out has been a repeated topic of discussion here on Atheist Nexus and for good reason: it is at once a necessary yet potentially supremely painful process, depending on the participants and social environment where it happens. For myself, the only advice I've ever been able to manage to those facing that gauntlet is that "It is PERSONAL," and needs to be within the comfort level of the person contemplating it.
Well, it seems as though our buddy, TheraminTrees, has done more than think about it, a whole lot more. Indeed, TT has taken the matter and applied no small amount of analytic acumen to it, breaking it down into manageable bites and understanding each one, considering not just the point of view of the one coming out, but his or her audience as well.
For those of you in the closet and even those who aren't, this is a must-see. Please enjoy.
BTW, don't be surprised if a familiar name gets thrown about a little ways in! [grin!!!]
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Permalink Reply by Plinius on December 3, 2015 at 12:22am
That's a solid piece of work!
Permalink Reply by Loren Miller on December 3, 2015 at 6:34am
Isn't it, though? Personally, I think TT has outdone himself with this one.
Permalink Reply by Grinning Cat on December 3, 2015 at 12:36am
BTW, don't be surprised if a familiar name gets thrown about a little ways in! [grin!!!]
What a sinister surprise! :)
Permalink Reply by Loren Miller on December 3, 2015 at 6:36am
I been Ayn Randed, nearly branded a communist, 'cuz I'm left-handed.
That's the hand to USE, well ... never mind!
-- Paul Simon, "A Simple, Desultory Philippic"
Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on December 13, 2015 at 12:45am
Thanks, Loren. I like how he structures this discussion.
Permalink Reply by Atheist in FundyLand on December 23, 2015 at 10:35pm
This is a really valuable asset. I wish I'd had it before I came out.
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If God Exists (DarkMatter2525)
Posted by Loren Miller on December 19, 2015 at 8:54am in Hang With Friends
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"Practice makes perfect." That's the concept, isn't it? Work diligently at something, especially something you enjoy and are adept at, and your skills sharpen, your judgment improves, and the product of your efforts demonstrate that improvement. I see this brand of progress all over the atheist community and certainly with the handiwork of YouTube video producer DarkMatter2525. He has poked at religion for years now, highlighting its missteps and foolishness, used humor and sarcasm to strip away its pretensions and reveal its ugly core. His reward has been to enjoy one of the largest subscription bases in YouTube atheism at nearly half a million.
And he hasn't let up. His latest opus, "If God Exists," may be his best work to date. It is as ambitious in what it attempts to convey as it is beautiful and poignant, not to mention a wonderfully deft twist at the end.
Please watch. Please listen. Please enjoy.
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Permalink Reply by Donald R Barbera on December 19, 2015 at 9:47am
A thought provoking piece that only and non-believer could love. A religionist wouldn't make it past Yahweh being talked to in a social manner without the groveling, sniveling and begging approaches. Still. I like it, even though I think he is preaching to the choir.
Permalink Reply by Loren Miller on December 19, 2015 at 9:52am
Not sure I agree that only a non-believer would be willing to tolerate DM's approach here. I recall seeing at least one breakthrough in the YouTube comments section. Granted that there are believers with a near-unmodifiable need to believe. There are also those who want to know, and we are aware of that.
They are people like Matt Dillahunty and Seth Andrews ... and you and me ... and stuff like this does make a difference.
Permalink Reply by Ruth Anthony-Gardner on December 23, 2015 at 8:50pm
This might spark a few questions among those ready to deconvert. For me, beginning with the theist character immediately put it into the fiction or fantasy genre.
Permalink Reply by Loren Miller on December 23, 2015 at 10:29pm
The thing is, Ruth, Yahweh has been a part of DarkMatter's videos practically from their beginning. It's rather part of his style. Granted that his approach may hurt his credibility with believers, but it doesn't change the veracity of his arguments.
As with anything else, his success will depend on the receptivity of his audience.
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There Is Only One Way to Destroy ISIS
Posted by Joan Denoo on November 17, 2015 at 12:56pm in Hang With Friends
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There Is Only One Way to Destroy ISIS
Growth in population, policies and practices that create a gap between the typical person and the wealthy, lack of paid employment for working-age people, and religious beliefs, all contribute to the challenge.
My idea is to develop massive land regeneration and small farm projects raising food for individual families and people in cities. With an excess of labor, the unemployed could create fertile soils and with good management, orchards and gardens could be developed, maintained an sustained.
Greening the Desert II: Greening the Middle East
https://vimeo.com/7658282
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Permalink Reply by Randall Smith on November 18, 2015 at 7:28am
Thought provoking. I reckon I'm on the right track.
Permalink Reply by Ruth Anthony-Gardner on December 24, 2015 at 10:05am
Pemaculture sounds helpful, as long as there is some rain. Better than conventional plowing and fertilizer for sure. Thanks for the link, Joan.
Permalink Reply by Loren Miller on December 24, 2015 at 11:31am
There's one element not mentioned in all of this and that is the poverty which is endemic to too much of the population which ISIS and organizations like it take advantage of. Long ago, Christopher Hitchens specified a four-word prescription for the extinction of poverty, to wit:
The Empowerment of Women
Certainly what you propose here provides a portion of that solution, but not entirely. Attitudes need to be changed, most especially about who had the right to what, and more importantly, WHOM. Indeed, I would expand on Hitchens' statement by proposing the recognition of rights of individual self-ownership and integrity. This concept is most simply expressed as: "Your right to wave your fist about ends at my nose!"
Certainly, end poverty, end hunger, and we're well on the road to a far better state of affairs, but until individual rights and integrity are insured, the attempts of some to superimpose their will over others will likely persist.
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White House Petition: Change National Motto Back to "E Pluribus, Unum"
Posted by Loren Miller on January 19, 2016 at 9:24am in Hang With Friends
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There is a petition being sponsored by whitehouse.gov to remove "in god we trust" as the national motto and replace it with the original: "E Pluribus, Unum" or "Out of Many, One." As of this writing, there are around 11,000 signatures on it, with 89,000 required before 31 January, 2016 to get it the attention it needs and deserves. Yeah, I know there aren't a lot of regulars here, but every little bit helps.
The petition is located here. PLEASE SIGN.
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Permalink Reply by Plinius on January 19, 2016 at 11:33am
Can't sign, Loren, the system can't handle my zipcode.
Permalink Reply by Loren Miller on January 19, 2016 at 11:35am
I suspect you can't because you're not a US citizen ... but thanks for the thought Chris!
Permalink Reply by Donald L. Engel on January 19, 2016 at 11:47am
The petition isn't working right. It hasn't shown any updated results since the 17th.
Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on January 20, 2016 at 1:50am
Thanks, Loren, signed and passed along.
Permalink Reply by Randall Smith on January 20, 2016 at 7:57am
Signed, "sealed", and delivered.
Permalink Reply by k.h. ky on January 20, 2016 at 12:07pm
I can't get it to open. It's probably the cloud coverage. I'll try again later.
Permalink Reply by k.h. ky on January 20, 2016 at 12:47pm
There is something wrong with the petition. It let me sign and verify twice but the date hasn't changed since yesterday. Something odd.
Permalink Reply by k.h. ky on January 22, 2016 at 3:58pm
It's a good link. It just took it awhile to post.
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...but intelligent people believe in God (DarkMatter2525)
Posted by Loren Miller on February 11, 2016 at 5:06pm in Hang With Friends
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A ridiculous claim should be recognized as such as a matter of course, shouldn't it? Shouldn't It?!? What happens if that claim is so imbued and integrated into society over hundreds if not thousands of years that it has been taken as TRUTH without being questioned?
Asked and answered by one of my favorite YouTube animators, DarkMatter2525, and brilliantly so, from where I sit. Enjoy.
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Permalink Reply by Donald R Barbera on February 12, 2016 at 4:33pm
This does an excellent job of explaining how some people have selective intelligence. Normally, people throw off ideas and theories that make no sense or can't be supported, but when it comes to God normally intelligent people seem to regress to prehistoric standards. Of course as pointed out, a child has their beliefs selected for them before they can read or write, making them susceptible to conditioning. I was born and baptised catholic. I had no choice in the matter it was probably decided before I was born. My parents enrolled me in Catholic School. That pretty much set me on the road to disbelief. I don't know how many atheists that church has produced but I bet the number is significant.
Permalink Reply by Loren Miller on February 12, 2016 at 8:09pm
DarkMatter2525 has done an outstanding job of communicating these kinds of concepts since I first ran onto him. Mostly, he's done it with sarcasm, with his version of Yahweh and "Jeffrey," but lately he's gotten more serious, but he still makes his points with the same kind of precision. Between him and TheraminTrees, atheism is very well represented, indeed.
Permalink Reply by Grinning Cat on February 13, 2016 at 2:52am
Worth a repost: TheraminTrees' video "Bending Truth", on how we're all vulnerable to being manipulated through the strong human need to reduce cognitive dissonance. (And perhaps paradoxically, accepting that and knowing how it works can make us less susceptible to being manipulated!)
If you don't have half an hour to watch a video, grab the audio with a tool like listentoyoutube.com (web-based, no downloads/apps needed). The soundtrack stands on its own quite well as a "podcast".
Permalink Reply by Ruth Anthony-Gardner on February 19, 2016 at 8:36pm
This is well done, and it's reassuring that truth doesn't need props. However it's pretty much preaching to the choir. It' not well balanced in that it fails to explore the ways in which some ridiculous claims performed important functions in the past, and the ways in which those functions are no longer necessary or are overweighted by accompanying dysfunction.
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