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FEELING SORRY FOR MISSIONARIES  
Posted: 21 January 2016 09:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
antipsicótica
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After watching this video (Watch Here)  I felt sorry for all missionaries in the world, we, as former mormons, know that they have no intention of lying, that they are just doing what they were told to do and that they really beleive what they are teaching. 
 
There are so many flaws in the missionary field, these so young guys go to a whole new world with an extremely short preparation to face it, they are humilliated, robbed, even killed in the field, but the church doesn't care about it, it is happy with the fact that they are enduring all of this.  Would Thomas S. Monson go door by door preaching the "gospel" during the rest of his presidency period? He wouldn't, he already has these naive people receiving the humilliation that is actually directed to and caused by the leaders of the church. 
 
My husband had very bad companions during his mission, he suffered bullying and was about to be strangulated (literally) by one of them while sleeping, but the leaders didn't care about it, they didn't thought that was an important topic.
 
Another thing is that the leaders don't care about missionaries security.  I live in Dominican Republic and I was always worried for the missionary sisters because they have to walk in lonely places at night, exposed to many REAL dangers (assault, rape, etc), while the mission president has a car and doesn't have to go walking anywhere.
 
Not to mention that they get Peptobismol for all their health issues. 
 
Any thoughts on that? 
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Posted: 21 January 2016 09:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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I do too.  Especially now that young men are going straight out of high school.  Having a year between high school and a mission at least gave them a chance to live away from home for a bit and establish some independence.  Now, they are taken straight from home into what are often very difficult (and, as you say, dangerous) living situations.  It would be interesting to see the attrition figures from before and after the age change.  I'm guessing it's significantly higher.
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Posted: 21 January 2016 03:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
antipsicótica
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
I do too.  Especially now that young men are going straight out of high school.  Having a year between high school and a mission at least gave them a chance to live away from home for a bit and establish some independence.  Now, they are taken straight from home into what are often very difficult (and, as you say, dangerous) living situations.  It would be interesting to see the attrition figures from before and after the age change.  I'm guessing it's significantly higher.
 
 Yes, they are too young, just for the convenience of general authorities, that was the way that they found to desperately increase the number of missionaries.  I have read that there are more returning home early after the age change.   
 
They are also encouraging women to go to mission, here in Dominican Republic all young women are going to mission, many engagements were broken when Thomas S. Monson talked about women going to mission, now they feel that is their duty to go to mission too.  
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Posted: 21 January 2016 05:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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Don't be too certain that serving missionaries are all just cuddly innocents. The guys who want to be GAs, they can start young, and they can be darn close to vicious.

If you want to be totally amazed at how far off the rails missionaries can go in their quests for converts, Google groberg + kikuchi and if that doesn't shock you enough, Google baseball baptisms. 

Not actually a part of any program, years ago there were many indications in third world countries that elders were independently coming up with 'tombstone baptisms',  in which they'd please their D,Z&APs and MPs with notice of baptisms, so all up the line, everyone was happy.  But the people baptized weren't alive.

Kids want to please and the elders are kids.  Heck, I'm still a kid! So the elders show up for their missions, they sit, hands folded, eyes wide, heart open, and they are presented with continually changing dog and pony shows about how to convert people. And they get brow beaten when they don't make the MP look good!
There's a recording somewhere on the internet of an MP in a European mission excoriating his charges with the exhortation that if they would just stop masturbating, they would finally start baptizing!! Pretty hilarious now, but I bet the elders weren't laughing.

There is a stock phrase in christianity...  "If thou shouldest labor thy entire life and bring save it be just one person to the Lord, how great shall be thy reward!"  Heck of a sentiment.  But not one that la iglesia mormona is going to settle for.  They, like any pyramid scheme, need more people ... MORE PEOPLE!!!
I recently read a comment by an RM who said that if they were allowed to make friends with the people they met, they might have a chance of converting nice individuals and families, but they're not allowed to be friends, they're supposed to be salesmen. And they look for people who are hurting and can be attracted to one or another aspect of the gospel.
The missionary program has huge momentum, with a big pipeline of parents preparing future missionaries. It's not going to change from the inside. And I can't see how it could be changed from the outside. All I can foresee is that it withers away as church membership shrinks and there's not enough tithing money to keep the church growing in countries where the members aren't paying enough in tithing to make the expense worthwhile.
But, and it's a nice but... Some kids make use of their time in the mission field to have a pleasant experience and to grow up. I had a great mission! I spent the last 11 months as a tourist in Mexico, and then in DF.
 
When you have enough time on your hands, I'll steer you to one of the best threads ever started here on PostMormon, the "Best Apostate Missionaries Stories." But you need time to savor it all...
We also have a thread titled "Mission Presidents from Hell"!!
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Posted: 21 January 2016 06:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Quartersawn
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In all my years I've never seen missionaries return home early as I have seen in the last two years. 18 is just too young, but if they end up leaving the clutches of the church, that's good. Maybe this little bit of suffering will be a wake-up call to them, and spare them much heartache later on after marriage and kids come along.
 
::::Raising my glass of red wine::: Here's hoping they will see the light before I did.  
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Posted: 21 January 2016 06:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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I feel bad that so many of them don't get enough to eat, or adequate medical care. There's no excuse for that. There's so much pressure to stay and continue to suffer.
 
And then there's the fact that many of them will feel bad later on for all the lies they unwittingly told to so many people. 


   


Posted: 21 January 2016 11:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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Estimada Dra. Reyes, que le parece este cuento, de su pais: 
 
 
Dominican Republic Sister Olsen serving the Dominican Republic Santo Domingo West Mission reported on Sept. 22, 2014 about the cities Ocoa and Parra:  “people are refusing callings and the branch seriously lacks unity, fractured by picking sides and pointing fingers. (It’s no wonder we visit 6 past branch presidents, all either inactive or excommunicated)”   “We also received the news that Parra is going to be shut down (at least for a while), meaning no more church meetings there and no more missionaries visiting. It’s an isolated village of 350 members, basically all inactive and all unwilling to change, despite our best efforts. It’s like Jacob 5 tells us: when a branch, after much care and pruning, still produces bad fruit it must be cut off for the good of the tree. 
It's just one little blurb from a mishie blog, among a whole bunch more, at Nearing Kolob.
 
http://www.nearingkolob.com/mormon-missionary-reports-church-inactivity/ 
 
 
There's always been inactivity in the church.  I'm guessing that prior to the internet, the powers that be only cared about the number of members, and not the level of activity.  Many older RMs were told to forget their investigators once they were dunked, and go find more.  Now they worry about the inactives.  I read one blog, either on my own or another site, where the mishies were being told that reactivating a 'less active' was the same as baptizing a convert.   
 
 
 
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Posted: 22 January 2016 06:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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I remember some one using this scripture in a talk  --  "Judas went and hung himself, go thou and do likewise".  It goes to show you how morgbots(and it was a morgbot who put those two unrelated scriptures together)will use morg scriptures(which some of us know without a shadow of doubt is, wait for it  --  HORSESHIT!) to justify absolutely everything.
I ride Frontrunner everyday from Orem to Clearfield and two to three days a week there are plenty of green mishies on their way to sell the HORSESHIT.  And they keep on coming  --  a never ending brainwashed saleforce.
I knew missionaries in my mission(Paris France 1966-69) who were dedicated and hard working mishies.  I knew some who were power hungry little shits who enjoyed terrorizing their companions/districts/zones becauae they had a goal in mind  --  to be an AP and some day be a GA.  Some of them would say/do anything to get there.
IMVHO, I believe that many converts are really converted to the mishies and when that relationship is severed, they experience reality therapy and decide that they made a bad decision and they bail.  Also IMVHO, I believe it is the same for members once they experience the holy house of creepy hugs and handshakes  --  before they even know what is going to happen(I even taught temple prep classes which really don't prepare you for anything)they have to promise not to devulge anything to anyone.  And then they experience something that is totally foreign/totally alien to them but they are trapped  --  all the people they love are there, smiling like a group of village idiots  --  isn't this the most spiritual experience you've ever had  --  NOT, but you can't tell them that.  Instant reality therapy  --  WTF.
IMVHO, I believe that for most 18-19 year olds and many members the knowledge that they really have about the morg could be put on the dimple of the pimple on a fleas left testicle.
For me, it's not hard to feel sorry for many mishies because they were brainwashed since they were sunbeeps  --  I hope they call me on a mission when I have grown a foot or two as well as that rousing tune(always reminded me of a college fight song) --  Called to serve.  All of which puts them in a morgbot coma for the rest of their lives.  The good news  --   some of them(like us) saw the light and realize for themselves that the morg is indeed built upon the foundation of a pile of stinking HORSESHIT!  And that knowledge sets them free  --  and that is PRICELESS!


   


Posted: 22 January 2016 10:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
antipsicótica
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Elder OldDog:
Estimada Dra. Reyes, que le parece este cuento, de su pais: 
 
 
 Dominican Republic Sister Olsen serving the Dominican Republic Santo Domingo West Mission reported on Sept. 22, 2014 about the cities Ocoa and Parra:  “people are refusing callings and the branch seriously lacks unity, fractured by picking sides and pointing fingers. (It’s no wonder we visit 6 past branch presidents, all either inactive or excommunicated)”   “We also received the news that Parra is going to be shut down (at least for a while), meaning no more church meetings there and no more missionaries visiting. It’s an isolated village of 350 members, basically all inactive and all unwilling to change, despite our best efforts. It’s like Jacob 5 tells us: when a branch, after much care and pruning, still produces bad fruit it must be cut off for the good of the tree. 
It's just one little blurb from a mishie blog, among a whole bunch more, at Nearing Kolob.
 
http://www.nearingkolob.com/mormon-missionary-reports-church-inactivity/ 
 
 
There's always been inactivity in the church.  I'm guessing that prior to the internet, the powers that be only cared about the number of members, and not the level of activity.  Many older RMs were told to forget their investigators once they were dunked, and go find more.  Now they worry about the inactives.  I read one blog, either on my own or another site, where the mishies were being told that reactivating a 'less active' was the same as baptizing a convert.   
 
 
 
 
 Thank you all for your replies. 
 
As one of you said, many people is "converted" and when the relationship with the missionaries end, then they become inactive.  It is very common here to see entire wards inactive.  Usually missionaries baptize many young women, as girls feel attracted to foreigners, once these girls know that their baptism will not get them to marriage with missionaries, then they drop out. 
 
There have been many leaders excommunicated, but this is treated very privately and hidden from the members.
 
Recently the local newspapers covered  the story of a local authority  that was missing.  His family started to publish through Facebook that he was missing at noon the same day he dissapeared (not even 12 hours have passed) just because "he didin't aswer the phone". When the members of the church found him the next day I knew from a very trusted (not LDS) source that he was disoriented and got lost because he took a toxic substance to commit suicide, and that was the version in the newspapers that day.  But later the newspapers changed their version of the story denying the suicide attempt, the previous news was completely deleted from the web and the family was told by church leaders to not receive visits or any calls. 
 
My husband and I thougth that maybe this brother was going to be released from his called, either because of health issues or "worthiness" issues, but it didn't happen.  Weeks laters this brother talked to the congregation, he started saying: " I know many of you are wondering how I am"...  we thought he was going to explain what happened (if there was nothing to hide, right?), so people stop speculating, but he just said that he was good.  
 
Why all these efforts in hiding facts from the members?  This event was certainly one of the things that helped us take the decision of leaving. 
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Posted: 22 January 2016 10:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
antipsicótica
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maynardg:
I remember some one using this scripture in a talk  --  "Judas went and hung himself, go thou and do likewise".  It goes to show you how morgbots(and it was a morgbot who put those two unrelated scriptures together)will use morg scriptures(which some of us know without a shadow of doubt is, wait for it  --  HORSESHIT!) to justify absolutely everything.
 
 
 Wow, maynardg, using that scripture is kind of extremist. Are these the so-called Nazi Mormons?
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“Take that money, watch it burn, sink in the river the lessons I’ve learned”.


   


Posted: 22 January 2016 10:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
antipsicótica
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I've been thinking I have to change my screen name, our relatives don't know yet that we are out of the church, I never thought I had to keep anonymous as we are not in Utah and is not such a big deal here to drop the church as it is for most of you that come from generations of mormons, but now I realize that publishing in this forum with my kind-of-obvious screen name could have really bad consequences for my family's business...
 
This is a very important issue that I never considered until now, I can't beleive we were into such a big suggestion.
 
Well, my new screen name will be antipsicótica or something like that.
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“Take that money, watch it burn, sink in the river the lessons I’ve learned”.


   


Posted: 22 January 2016 11:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
antipsicótica
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Elder OldDog:
Estimada Dra. Reyes, que le parece este cuento, de su pais: 
 
 
 Dominican Republic Sister Olsen serving the Dominican Republic Santo Domingo West Mission reported on Sept. 22, 2014 about the cities Ocoa and Parra:  “people are refusing callings and the branch seriously lacks unity, fractured by picking sides and pointing fingers. (It’s no wonder we visit 6 past branch presidents, all either inactive or excommunicated)”   “We also received the news that Parra is going to be shut down (at least for a while), meaning no more church meetings there and no more missionaries visiting. It’s an isolated village of 350 members, basically all inactive and all unwilling to change, despite our best efforts. It’s like Jacob 5 tells us: when a branch, after much care and pruning, still produces bad fruit it must be cut off for the good of the tree. 
 
  This is so typical.  Rarely members get out of the church because of church history or other issues, it is mostly because of the behavior of the leaders, I've been dealing with that all my life, there is corruption, abuse of power, gossip... nobody wants to be in such a hostile environment. 
 
 
 
 
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“Take that money, watch it burn, sink in the river the lessons I’ve learned”.


   


Posted: 22 January 2016 11:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
antipsicótica
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maynardg:
I remember some one using this scripture in a talk  --  "Judas went and hung himself, go thou and do likewise".  It goes to show you how morgbots(and it was a morgbot who put those two unrelated scriptures together)will use morg scriptures(which some of us know without a shadow of doubt is, wait for it  --  HORSESHIT!) to justify absolutely everything.
I ride Frontrunner everyday from Orem to Clearfield and two to three days a week there are plenty of green mishies on their way to sell the HORSESHIT.  And they keep on coming  --  a never ending brainwashed saleforce.
I knew missionaries in my mission(Paris France 1966-69) who were dedicated and hard working mishies.  I knew some who were power hungry little shits who enjoyed terrorizing their companions/districts/zones becauae they had a goal in mind  --  to be an AP and some day be a GA.  Some of them would say/do anything to get there.
IMVHO, I believe that many converts are really converted to the mishies and when that relationship is severed, they experience reality therapy and decide that they made a bad decision and they bail.  Also IMVHO, I believe it is the same for members once they experience the holy house of creepy hugs and handshakes  --  before they even know what is going to happen(I even taught temple prep classes which really don't prepare you for anything)they have to promise not to devulge anything to anyone.  And then they experience something that is totally foreign/totally alien to them but they are trapped  --  all the people they love are there, smiling like a group of village idiots  --  isn't this the most spiritual experience you've ever had  --  NOT, but you can't tell them that.  Instant reality therapy  --  WTF.
IMVHO, I believe that for most 18-19 year olds and many members the knowledge that they really have about the morg could be put on the dimple of the pimple on a fleas left testicle.
For me, it's not hard to feel sorry for many mishies because they were brainwashed since they were sunbeeps  --  I hope they call me on a mission when I have grown a foot or two as well as that rousing tune(always reminded me of a college fight song) --  Called to serve.  All of which puts them in a morgbot coma for the rest of their lives.  The good news  --   some of them(like us) saw the light and realize for themselves that the morg is indeed built upon the foundation of a pile of stinking HORSESHIT!  And that knowledge sets them free  --  and that is PRICELESS!
 
 I prefer my son to save for his EDUCATION instead of saving for a mission in which he won't actually serve people, but try to convince people.  Many times missionaries ask to serve, but people don't let them because they notice that they are not genuine in their offer.  I think my son would be more useful to the world getting those years on education or actually serving people in what they really need. 
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Posted: 22 January 2016 12:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
peace out
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antipsicótica:
 
 I prefer my son to save for his EDUCATION instead of saving for a mission in which he won't actually serve people, but try to convince people.  Many times missionaries ask to serve, but people don't let them because they notice that they are not genuine in their offer.  I think my son would be more useful to the world getting those years on education or actually serving people in what they really need. 
 
I could not agree more, it's really not service to others it's all intended to service the organization, it's exploitation of the missionary and a tactic developed by the church to get their foot in the door.  I'm told that Seventh day Adventist serve small missions through out their lives like a doctor might take a few weeks off and help people in need....
Really people can be much more helpful once they have developed a skill set other than selling the church door to door. But that was not the objective.
 
interestingly in the 80's we where barred from doing service unless on or 1/2 day P-day. We where also not supposed to work with inactive members, that was considered a waste of time since they had already been baptized.  


   


Posted: 22 January 2016 01:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith
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Some thoughts I have:
 
Context - I currently have a son on a mission; I have a second son that will likely leave on a mission in the next year and a half; I formerly taught at a church university; I currently teach at a state university; My community of residence is less than 6% mormon and the university I teach is around 2% mormon.
 
I don't know what percent of the world believes in a supreme being, but to me it seems like a super majority. Does one religion have more or better evidence, of god, over the other? (Mormon Church included) Are some religions more harmful than other? Do some people need religion more than others? If one believes is god and their religion, is it immoral to attempt to convert someone that also believes in god? Can an exchange between a person and church be mutually beneficial? (Mormon Church included)
 
I see 18 year old kids come into my classroom from all kinds of backgrounds. Many are away from home for the first time and they are dealing with many of the same emotions as 18 year old Mormon missionaries. I am not sure that the attrition rate, at universities, are much different than 18 year old missionaries? The death rate in the category of accidental death at my university is higher than mormon missionaries.
 
The Mormon Church does not have a monopoly on crazy, deception, irrational behavior or thought---nor does religion in general. 
 
I could continue on, but I will not.
 
My complaint about the Mormon Church is their theft of Agency, which seems more extreme than other religons; and their unwillingness to act humane to us who's belief systems are no longer the same.
 
As for my son, he is happy and doing very well (NO NEED TO FEEL SORRY FOR HIM). Yes he deals with the shit, but he is also maturing at a faster rate than my 18-19 year old students. I don't think this is bad.
 
I wonder sometimes if I would have ever found my way out of the Church (intellectually), had it not been for my mission. I look forward to the day that I will be able to buy my missionary son a cup of coffee  
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Posted: 22 January 2016 02:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
antipsicótica
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WinstonSmith:
Some thoughts I have:
 
Context - I currently have a son on a mission; I have a second son that will likely leave on a mission in the next year and a half; I formerly taught at a church university; I currently teach at a state university; My community of residence is less than 6% mormon and the university I teach is around 2% mormon.
 
I don't know what percent of the world believes in a supreme being, but to me it seems like a super majority. Does one religion have more or better evidence, of god, over the other? (Mormon Church included) Are some religions more harmful than other? Do some people need religion more than others? If one believes is god and their religion, is it immoral to attempt to convert someone that also believes in god? Can an exchange between a person and church be mutually beneficial? (Mormon Church included)
 
I see 18 year old kids come into my classroom from all kinds of backgrounds. Many are away from home for the first time and they are dealing with many of the same emotions as 18 year old Mormon missionaries. I am not sure that the attrition rate, at universities, are much different than 18 year old missionaries? The death rate in the category of accidental death at my university is higher than mormon missionaries.
 
The Mormon Church does not have a monopoly on crazy, deception, irrational behavior or thought---nor does religion in general. 
 
I could continue on, but I will not.
 
My complaint about the Mormon Church is their theft of Agency, which seems more extreme than other religons; and their unwillingness to act humane to us who's belief systems are no longer the same.
 
As for my son, he is happy and doing very well (NO NEED TO FEEL SORRY FOR HIM). Yes he deals with the shit, but he is also maturing at a faster rate than my 18-19 year old students. I don't think this is bad.
 
I wonder sometimes if I would have ever found my way out of the Church (intellectually), had it not been for my mission. I look forward to the day that I will be able to buy my missionary son a cup of coffee  
 
 Hello, Winston.
I think serving a mission is honorable, but we can't deny the fact that they are more exposed to humilliation than they would be in other kind of humanitarian mission.  Maybe I didn't use the apropriate term (feeling sorry), but it's hard to see these well intentioned kids trying to defend what they can't prove and answer questions they have no answer for. My brother didn't go on a mission, and I always wanted him to go, not because he was going to preach, but because he needs to go and see the real world, he is too dependent on our parents and never leaves his comfort zone.  
 
It is because I admire missionaries that I feel so bad about it, I think they deserve better, they need their mission presidents to worry and take action about their security and well being. I talk for what I have seen in my area.
 
By the way... My husband told me that if a missionary is kidnapped the church won't pay for the rescue to avoid future abductions.  It seems kind of logical, but it also scary at the same time.  What do you think about this, do you think this is the right way to handle it? I think this can be a controversial topic. 
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Posted: 22 January 2016 02:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
antipsicótica
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WinstonSmith:
 
 
 I love your signature quote!
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“Take that money, watch it burn, sink in the river the lessons I’ve learned”.


   


Posted: 23 January 2016 05:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith
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antipsicótica:
WinstonSmith:
Some thoughts I have:
 
Context - I currently have a son on a mission; I have a second son that will likely leave on a mission in the next year and a half; I formerly taught at a church university; I currently teach at a state university; My community of residence is less than 6% mormon and the university I teach is around 2% mormon.
 
I don't know what percent of the world believes in a supreme being, but to me it seems like a super majority. Does one religion have more or better evidence, of god, over the other? (Mormon Church included) Are some religions more harmful than other? Do some people need religion more than others? If one believes is god and their religion, is it immoral to attempt to convert someone that also believes in god? Can an exchange between a person and church be mutually beneficial? (Mormon Church included)
 
I see 18 year old kids come into my classroom from all kinds of backgrounds. Many are away from home for the first time and they are dealing with many of the same emotions as 18 year old Mormon missionaries. I am not sure that the attrition rate, at universities, are much different than 18 year old missionaries? The death rate in the category of accidental death at my university is higher than mormon missionaries.
 
The Mormon Church does not have a monopoly on crazy, deception, irrational behavior or thought---nor does religion in general. 
 
I could continue on, but I will not.
 
My complaint about the Mormon Church is their theft of Agency, which seems more extreme than other religons; and their unwillingness to act humane to us who's belief systems are no longer the same.
 
As for my son, he is happy and doing very well (NO NEED TO FEEL SORRY FOR HIM). Yes he deals with the shit, but he is also maturing at a faster rate than my 18-19 year old students. I don't think this is bad.
 
I wonder sometimes if I would have ever found my way out of the Church (intellectually), had it not been for my mission. I look forward to the day that I will be able to buy my missionary son a cup of coffee  
 
 Hello, Winston.
I think serving a mission is honorable, but we can't deny the fact that they are more exposed to humilliation than they would be in other kind of humanitarian mission.  Maybe I didn't use the apropriate term (feeling sorry), but it's hard to see these well intentioned kids trying to defend what they can't prove and answer questions they have no answer for. My brother didn't go on a mission, and I always wanted him to go, not because he was going to preach, but because he needs to go and see the real world, he is too dependent on our parents and never leaves his comfort zone.  
 
It is because I admire missionaries that I feel so bad about it, I think they deserve better, they need their mission presidents to worry and take action about their security and well being. I talk for what I have seen in my area.
 
By the way... My husband told me that if a missionary is kidnapped the church won't pay for the rescue to avoid future abductions.  It seems kind of logical, but it also scary at the same time.  What do you think about this, do you think this is the right way to handle it? I think this can be a controversial topic. 
Hello antipsicótica:
 
I didn't intend to come accross as being controversial. It is a topic that I have struggled with because of my son on a mission.  [  ] I get the whole humilliation thing, but this world is full of humilliation. Now that I teach non-Mormon college students, what I observe is that humilliation happens every where and everyone at some point finds themselves in circumstances of humilliation.   Many of these people do not have strong support networks and the residual results many times are devestating.
 
Yes, missionaries are exposed to humiliation, but missionaries also live their mission lives in a structure and network of support that makes it easier to endure; many people in the world do not have this support. I don't feel bad that my son is experiencing these things. I am suggesting that mormon missions can add value to basic life skills like dealing with humilliation.
 
Since I am not a believer in any religion, and recognize the inevidablity of religion; since I understand mormon missions, having served one, I do believe my son is in a relatively safe place and becoming a better person; inspite of the baggage that comes with it. I also like the idea of the church having more humanitarian missions.
 
--------
 
Just a quick note about your comment on "if a missionary is kidnapped". I bought several powerball tickets when the estimated pot was at 1.5 billion.  My thought was (even though statistically improbable), if I won, my first immediate action would have been to extract my son from his mission. My son is in a country that if a connection was made between him and that kind of money, his life would have been in immediate danger. The cunundrum would have been if I would have involved the church in the extraction or not?
 Signature
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


Posted: 23 January 2016 05:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
antipsicótica
Jr. Member
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Joined  2016-01-20
 
  
 
WinstonSmith:
antipsicótica:
WinstonSmith:
Some thoughts I have:
 
Context - I currently have a son on a mission; I have a second son that will likely leave on a mission in the next year and a half; I formerly taught at a church university; I currently teach at a state university; My community of residence is less than 6% mormon and the university I teach is around 2% mormon.
 
I don't know what percent of the world believes in a supreme being, but to me it seems like a super majority. Does one religion have more or better evidence, of god, over the other? (Mormon Church included) Are some religions more harmful than other? Do some people need religion more than others? If one believes is god and their religion, is it immoral to attempt to convert someone that also believes in god? Can an exchange between a person and church be mutually beneficial? (Mormon Church included)
 
I see 18 year old kids come into my classroom from all kinds of backgrounds. Many are away from home for the first time and they are dealing with many of the same emotions as 18 year old Mormon missionaries. I am not sure that the attrition rate, at universities, are much different than 18 year old missionaries? The death rate in the category of accidental death at my university is higher than mormon missionaries.
 
The Mormon Church does not have a monopoly on crazy, deception, irrational behavior or thought---nor does religion in general. 
 
I could continue on, but I will not.
 
My complaint about the Mormon Church is their theft of Agency, which seems more extreme than other religons; and their unwillingness to act humane to us who's belief systems are no longer the same.
 
As for my son, he is happy and doing very well (NO NEED TO FEEL SORRY FOR HIM). Yes he deals with the shit, but he is also maturing at a faster rate than my 18-19 year old students. I don't think this is bad.
 
I wonder sometimes if I would have ever found my way out of the Church (intellectually), had it not been for my mission. I look forward to the day that I will be able to buy my missionary son a cup of coffee  
 
 Hello, Winston.
I think serving a mission is honorable, but we can't deny the fact that they are more exposed to humilliation than they would be in other kind of humanitarian mission.  Maybe I didn't use the apropriate term (feeling sorry), but it's hard to see these well intentioned kids trying to defend what they can't prove and answer questions they have no answer for. My brother didn't go on a mission, and I always wanted him to go, not because he was going to preach, but because he needs to go and see the reald world, he is too dependent on our parents and never leaves his comfort zone.  
 
It is because I admire missionaries that I feel so bad about it, I think they deserve better, they need their mission presidents to worry and take action about their security and well being. I talk for what I have seen in my area.
 
By the way... My husband told me that if a missionary is kidnapped the church won't pay for the rescue to avoid future abductions.  It seems kind of logical, but it also scary at the same time.  What do you think about this, do you think this is the right way to handle it? I think this can be a controversial topic. 
Hello antipsicótica:
 
I didn't intend to come accross as being controversial. It is a topic that I have struggled with because of my son on a mission.  [  ] I get the whole humilliation thing, but this world is full of humilliation. Now that I teach non-Mormon college students, what I observe is that humilliation happens every where and everyone at some point finds themselves in circumstances of humilliation.   Many of these people do not have strong support networks and the residual results many times are devestating.
 
Yes, missionaries are exposed to humiliation, but missionaries also live their mission lives in a structure and network of support that makes it easier to endure; many people in the world do not have this support. I don't feel bad that my son is experiencing these things. I am suggesting that mormon missions can add value to basic life skills like dealing with humilliation.
 
Since I am not a believer in any religion, and recognize the inevidablity of religion; since I understand mormon missions, having served one, I do believe my son is in a relatively safe place and becoming a better person; inspite of the baggage that comes with it. I also like the idea of the church having more humanitarian missions.
 
--------
 
Just a quick note about your comment on "if a missionary is kidnapped". I bought several powerball tickets when the estimated pot was at 1.5 billion.  My thought was (even though statistically improbable), if I won, my first immediate action would have been to extract my son from his mission. My son is in a country that if a connection was made between him and that kind of money, his life would have been in immediate danger. The cunundrum would have been if I would have involved the church in the extraction or not?
 
 Well, some families would have the resources to rescue a child from kidnapping, but some won't.  Even though the odds are very low, their risk to be abducted is relatively high when they go from the US to serve in a third world country, and in case it happens and a family doesn't have the money, then the church won't respond for them. I think there is no way you could involve the church in the extraction if they don't give you the option to do it. 
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Posted: 23 January 2016 10:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
finex
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Feeling sorry for the missionaries truly after seeing this. I just hope this won't spread out to be a standard practice as this is probably one of the most manipulative things I've seen lately.
http://www.nearingkolob.com/returned-missionary-commitment-signature-required/
 


   


Posted: 23 January 2016 11:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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finex:
Feeling sorry for the missionaries truly after seeing this. I just hope this won't spread out to be a standard practice as this is probably one of the most manipulative things I've seen lately.
http://www.nearingkolob.com/returned-missionary-commitment-signature-required/
 
 
 I suspect it will be a standard practice, if it isn't already.  Leadership seems to be trying to create a birth to temple marriage pipeline for the young folks that minimizes the chances for leakage along the way.  There's a fair amount of manipulation at every stage, so why should the end of the mission be any different?
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

Phillip K. Dick


   


Posted: 24 January 2016 08:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
huehuetenango
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Two LDS missionaries stood on my stoop and told me I didn't love my kids because I wasn't interested in their message, because I didn't want to listen to them,I couldn't love my kids because I didn't want to be with them forever.  They said this with all my little children standing there.  I don't feel sorry for LDS missionaries, I loathe them. 

   


Posted: 24 January 2016 08:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
huehuetenango
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WinstonSmith:
Some thoughts I have:
 
Context - I currently have a son on a mission; I have a second son that will likely leave on a mission in the next year and a half; I formerly taught at a church university; I currently teach at a state university; My community of residence is less than 6% mormon and the university I teach is around 2% mormon.
 
I don't know what percent of the world believes in a supreme being, but to me it seems like a super majority. Does one religion have more or better evidence, of god, over the other? (Mormon Church included) Are some religions more harmful than other? Do some people need religion more than others? If one believes is god and their religion, is it immoral to attempt to convert someone that also believes in god? Can an exchange between a person and church be mutually beneficial? (Mormon Church included)
 
I see 18 year old kids come into my classroom from all kinds of backgrounds. Many are away from home for the first time and they are dealing with many of the same emotions as 18 year old Mormon missionaries. I am not sure that the attrition rate, at universities, are much different than 18 year old missionaries? The death rate in the category of accidental death at my university is higher than mormon missionaries.
 
The Mormon Church does not have a monopoly on crazy, deception, irrational behavior or thought---nor does religion in general. 
 
I could continue on, but I will not.
 
My complaint about the Mormon Church is their theft of Agency, which seems more extreme than other religons; and their unwillingness to act humane to us who's belief systems are no longer the same.
 
As for my son, he is happy and doing very well (NO NEED TO FEEL SORRY FOR HIM). Yes he deals with the shit, but he is also maturing at a faster rate than my 18-19 year old students. I don't think this is bad.
 
I wonder sometimes if I would have ever found my way out of the Church (intellectually), had it not been for my mission. I look forward to the day that I will be able to buy my missionary son a cup of coffee  
 You wouldn't have had to find your way out if your parents hadn't put you in, your kids are in the same place.  Now they have to MAYBE find their way out by going through a bunch of crap.
 


   


Posted: 25 January 2016 05:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith
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huehuetenango:
WinstonSmith:
<snip>
     
 
I wonder sometimes if I would have ever found my way out of the Church (intellectually), had it not been for my mission. I look forward to the day that I will be able to buy my missionary son a cup of coffee  
 You wouldn't have had to find your way out if your parents hadn't put you in, your kids are in the same place.  Now they have to MAYBE find their way out by going through a bunch of crap.
 
 
Life Happens!!!
 
This can be said for many churches.  When I was writting the above post, I was sitting in my favorite coffee shop and a group of Mennonite women came in (2 adults and 4 teenagers). My thoughts were, "how are these people any different than Mormons?", "Is it possible that their oppression is more intense than a Mormon teenager?".  The point is that the Mormon Church does not have monopoly when it comes to oppression. I have questions like, "What percentage of the world is oppressed by religion or governments?", on a scale of 1-10, where is Mormon oppresson verses the rest of the world?" We "Bitch" on this form about Mormonism, but I see many worse places in this world for my family to be.
 
Yes, I am a product of my parents belief in the Mormon fantasy---I do not blame them, they also were a product of their environment. The paradigm, however, does shift with me! My kids have one thing that I did not have: A parent that provides a safe environment to question and explore the questions of life and religon---and they know this. My oldest son (who is now serving a mission) confided in me (before he left) about his support for Kate Kelly, the LGBT community and John Dehlin.  When my kids start questioning the Mormon Church, they should know that it is safe to talk to me about it---the one thing my parents could not provide.
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Posted: 28 January 2016 12:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
leftasteen
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I left the church by marrying a non-mormon young. When we saw the missionaries coming in our apartment complex, she would get in her string bikini to answer the door. Fun, fun, fun. 

   


Posted: 28 January 2016 12:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
leftasteen
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I left the church by marrying a non-mormon young. When we saw the missionaries coming in our apartment complex, she would get in her string bikini to answer the door. Fun, fun, fun. 

   


            
 
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Culling The Flock - New Policy  
Posted: 27 January 2016 10:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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tab
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Thought I share this post I received from Facebook..
"On Saturday, the 33rd LDS LGBT youth (14-20 yrs old) took their life, since the November 5th policy came out. 32 is only the number that is confirmed. True numbers are obviously likely higher. And attempts? No conceivable way to know."
http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/johnwright/32_young_lgbt_mormons_have_committed_suicide_since_early_november_group_says
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Posted: 28 January 2016 01:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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This is horrendously sad. We can't seem to get reparations for tithing money they extorted from us. Hopefully, some of these families can organize a legal team and litigate for the damages pain and suffering from this revelation policy. That damn cult can not be completely enshrined in protection from being sued. 
 
STAYlds my ASS!
 
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Posted: 28 January 2016 04:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith
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The LDS Polciy towards the LGBT community is horrible and self-serving to the institution. It is sad that even one LGBT youth in the Church would take their life, due to the un-Christlike love emmulated from the Q15.
 
Unfortunately this is not just an LDS problem. The Suicide Prevention Resource Center estimates that between 30-40% of LGBT youth have attempted suicide. This statistic, if correct, is an outrage and our society should be completely ashamed that in 2016, we can make people feel so broken, ashamed and unsafe that suicide is their only option.
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Posted: 28 January 2016 05:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
Hank
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I'm sure church policy (new & old) have caused the suicide of many people for various reasons. Here and there I see claims of the number of church caused suicide, but never a source. Does anyone have some solid sources for these stats? If there were any, I would gladly post/refer to it in my Facebook for all my TBM people to see. I think if TBM's understood this fact, many would at least change thier approach a little.
 
Otherwise it is "he said, she said" and not credible.


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 07:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
leftasteen
Jr. Member
RankRank
Joined  2014-12-08
 
  
 
No worries. Based on history, God will call up the Prophet and modify this beta version of the policy.  
 
Just like Polygamy, and Blacks, the Lord will study these statistics, and other followup data, and re-issue a new Eternal Truth.
 
I am sure it will have nothing to do with Earthly pressures like laws, or the NCAA threatening BYU's NCAA status, or Tax Exemp Status, or a Civil Suit.  Obviously the Lord is not swayed by such earthly, mundane details. 
 
It will be glorious.  The Prophet will announce the divine revelation, and the Quorum of the 12 will issue the regulations. Once again, the LDS Church will be the one true religion, version 12.6. 
 
 


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 08:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
peace out
Long Timer
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Joined  2010-06-02
 
  
 
This is horrible regardless but what would be the normal rate of these events? Is there any way to know and thus track it back to this policy?
 
That would get media attention and thus become a lighting rod for further light and knowledge being provided. 
 


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 08:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
Avatar
tab
Long Timer
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Hank:
I'm sure church policy (new & old) have caused the suicide of many people for various reasons. Here and there I see claims of the number of church caused suicide, but never a source. Does anyone have some solid sources for these stats? If there were any, I would gladly post/refer to it in my Facebook for all my TBM people to see. I think if TBM's understood this fact, many would at least change thier approach a little.
 
Otherwise it is "he said, she said" and not credible.
 
 
Here is the information I have on the source of the reported suicides:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10207705873541297&id=1126446353&hc_location=ufi
"I am getting repeated requests for information about my sources substantiating an apparent dramatic increase in LGBT Mormon suicides. I've been answering the same question again and again on numerous threads, so I'll post it once more here. Feel free to share this as appropriate. As a leader within the LGBT Mormon community, I've observed signs of widespread trauma and depression within our community, and am personally aware of two (fortunately unsuccessful) suicide attempts.
Wendy Williams Montgomery is a leader in the Dragon Mamas community, mothers of LGBT Mormon kids. In the weeks since the announcement about the new LDS policy on gay families, she's heard from 32 different families reporting the suicide of an LGBT sibling or child. Wendy has the names of the individuals and families, who at this time have asked for privacy. Trying to count LGBT Mormon suicides from public sources is fairly difficult, since suicides are often miscounted as accidents, and/or the individuals may not be out of the closet or otherwise known to be LGB or T. Many families who are aware of their family member's sexual orientation or gender identity may be ashamed to reveal the information. Since a direct report by an immediate family member is the most reliable source on an LGBT Mormon suicide, I have to assume that the actual impact is significantly larger than these numbers indicate."
--------------
Since my own son (Utah Mormon) contaminated by LDS dogma, took his life shortly before the policy came out.. I can understand how the families reported above feel.
 Signature
“If they can get you to believe in absurdity, then they can get you to commit atrocity.” -Voltaire


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 09:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Celestial Wedgie
Long Timer
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Joined  2010-10-03
 
  
 
leftasteen:
No worries. Based on history, God will call up the Prophet and modify this beta version of the policy.  
 
Just like Polygamy, and Blacks, the Lord will study these statistics, and other followup data, and re-issue a new Eternal Truth.
 
I am sure it will have nothing to do with Earthly pressures like laws, or the NCAA threatening BYU's NCAA status, or Tax Exemp Status, or a Civil Suit.  Obviously the Lord is not swayed by such earthly, mundane details. 
 
It will be glorious.  The Prophet will announce the divine revelation, and the Quorum of the 12 will issue the regulations. Once again, the LDS Church will be the one true religion, version 12.6. 
 
 
 
 + !!! Oh man, wonderfully worded! Thanks so much! 


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 09:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Celestial Wedgie
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tab:
 
 
[snip] 
 
Since my own son (Utah Mormon) contaminated by LDS dogma, took his life shortly before the policy came out.. I can understand how the families reported above feel.
 
 I am so so sorry for this.   This whole thread (well, other than the wickedly funny post by leftasteen) is too sad to bear.


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 09:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Winyan
Long Timer
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Joined  2007-10-31
 
  
 
tab:
Hank:
I'm sure church policy (new & old) have caused the suicide of many people for various reasons. Here and there I see claims of the number of church caused suicide, but never a source. Does anyone have some solid sources for these stats? If there were any, I would gladly post/refer to it in my Facebook for all my TBM people to see. I think if TBM's understood this fact, many would at least change thier approach a little.
 
Otherwise it is "he said, she said" and not credible.
 
 
Here is the information I have on the source of the reported suicides:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10207705873541297&id=1126446353&hc_location=ufi
"I am getting repeated requests for information about my sources substantiating an apparent dramatic increase in LGBT Mormon suicides. I've been answering the same question again and again on numerous threads, so I'll post it once more here. Feel free to share this as appropriate. As a leader within the LGBT Mormon community, I've observed signs of widespread trauma and depression within our community, and am personally aware of two (fortunately unsuccessful) suicide attempts.
Wendy Williams Montgomery is a leader in the Dragon Mamas community, mothers of LGBT Mormon kids. In the weeks since the announcement about the new LDS policy on gay families, she's heard from 32 different families reporting the suicide of an LGBT sibling or child. Wendy has the names of the individuals and families, who at this time have asked for privacy. Trying to count LGBT Mormon suicides from public sources is fairly difficult, since suicides are often miscounted as accidents, and/or the individuals may not be out of the closet or otherwise known to be LGB or T. Many families who are aware of their family member's sexual orientation or gender identity may be ashamed to reveal the information. Since a direct report by an immediate family member is the most reliable source on an LGBT Mormon suicide, I have to assume that the actual impact is significantly larger than these numbers indicate."
--------------
Since my own son (Utah Mormon) contaminated by LDS dogma, took his life shortly before the policy came out.. I can understand how the families reported above feel.
 
 I'm so sorry to hear about your son. Sending thoughts of comfort for you and your family.
 


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 10:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
Administrator
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Joined  2007-05-08
 
  
 
tab:
Hank:
I'm sure church policy (new & old) have caused the suicide of many people for various reasons. Here and there I see claims of the number of church caused suicide, but never a source. Does anyone have some solid sources for these stats? If there were any, I would gladly post/refer to it in my Facebook for all my TBM people to see. I think if TBM's understood this fact, many would at least change thier approach a little.
 
Otherwise it is "he said, she said" and not credible.
 
 
Here is the information I have on the source of the reported suicides:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10207705873541297&id=1126446353&hc_location=ufi
"I am getting repeated requests for information about my sources substantiating an apparent dramatic increase in LGBT Mormon suicides. I've been answering the same question again and again on numerous threads, so I'll post it once more here. Feel free to share this as appropriate. As a leader within the LGBT Mormon community, I've observed signs of widespread trauma and depression within our community, and am personally aware of two (fortunately unsuccessful) suicide attempts.
Wendy Williams Montgomery is a leader in the Dragon Mamas community, mothers of LGBT Mormon kids. In the weeks since the announcement about the new LDS policy on gay families, she's heard from 32 different families reporting the suicide of an LGBT sibling or child. Wendy has the names of the individuals and families, who at this time have asked for privacy. Trying to count LGBT Mormon suicides from public sources is fairly difficult, since suicides are often miscounted as accidents, and/or the individuals may not be out of the closet or otherwise known to be LGB or T. Many families who are aware of their family member's sexual orientation or gender identity may be ashamed to reveal the information. Since a direct report by an immediate family member is the most reliable source on an LGBT Mormon suicide, I have to assume that the actual impact is significantly larger than these numbers indicate."
--------------
Since my own son (Utah Mormon) contaminated by LDS dogma, took his life shortly before the policy came out.. I can understand how the families reported above feel.
 
 Tab, I am so sorry about your son.  
 Signature
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

Phillip K. Dick


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 12:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
Hank
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined  2014-08-26
 
  
 
Brad (ZeeZrom):
tab:
Hank:
I'm sure church policy (new & old) have caused the suicide of many people for various reasons. Here and there I see claims of the number of church caused suicide, but never a source. Does anyone have some solid sources for these stats? If there were any, I would gladly post/refer to it in my Facebook for all my TBM people to see. I think if TBM's understood this fact, many would at least change thier approach a little.
 
Otherwise it is "he said, she said" and not credible.
 
 
Here is the information I have on the source of the reported suicides:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10207705873541297&id=1126446353&hc_location=ufi
"I am getting repeated requests for information about my sources substantiating an apparent dramatic increase in LGBT Mormon suicides. I've been answering the same question again and again on numerous threads, so I'll post it once more here. Feel free to share this as appropriate. As a leader within the LGBT Mormon community, I've observed signs of widespread trauma and depression within our community, and am personally aware of two (fortunately unsuccessful) suicide attempts.
Wendy Williams Montgomery is a leader in the Dragon Mamas community, mothers of LGBT Mormon kids. In the weeks since the announcement about the new LDS policy on gay families, she's heard from 32 different families reporting the suicide of an LGBT sibling or child. Wendy has the names of the individuals and families, who at this time have asked for privacy. Trying to count LGBT Mormon suicides from public sources is fairly difficult, since suicides are often miscounted as accidents, and/or the individuals may not be out of the closet or otherwise known to be LGB or T. Many families who are aware of their family member's sexual orientation or gender identity may be ashamed to reveal the information. Since a direct report by an immediate family member is the most reliable source on an LGBT Mormon suicide, I have to assume that the actual impact is significantly larger than these numbers indicate."
--------------
Since my own son (Utah Mormon) contaminated by LDS dogma, took his life shortly before the policy came out.. I can understand how the families reported above feel.
 
 Tab, I am so sorry about your son.  
 Tab, I didn't see the bottom of your post until Brad's reply. My deepest sympathy to you about your son. May the good memories give you some peace.
 


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 04:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Thanks for the kind words. The main thing I hope that comes out of my own situation is that folks talk about suicide prevention. The denial of mental health issues by my sons local LDS family members and unwillingness to support The American Foundation For Suicide Prevention or the Trevor project is hard for me to understand. There is more to suicide prevention than God and Jesus. At the graveside service the first thing the bishop said was that it's not for anyone here to judge what happened here, God is the final judge. I was thinking, why would someone judge someone for having a mental illness? Why is it any different judging folks for having cancer, or heart disease?
For me, even though I'm an atheist, this would have been a much better message:
"It’s more than tragic—in fact it’s shameful—that faith communities, especially Christian ones, continue to be complicit in putting our children at risk and abetting the attitudes that oppress them, thereby encouraging the aggressors who would subject our children to pain, humiliation, and violence. LGBT men and women will continue to be vulnerable to the sins of homophobia and heterosexism, to the violence of hate and fear until we in the church can say to homosexuals now what it has said to heterosexuals for 2,000 years. Your sexuality is good. The church not only accepts it. The church celebrates it and rejoices in it. God loves you as you are, and the church can do no less." 2014 Episcopal Message - National Cathedral
----------------------------------------------
More info on LGBT Youth suicides:
32 LGBT Mormons Aged 14-20 Have Committed Suicide in Wake of New Anti-Gay Policy, Group Says
http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/johnwright/32_young_lgbt_mormons_have_committed_suicide_since_early_november_group_says
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Culling The Flock - New Policy  
Posted: 27 January 2016 10:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Thought I share this post I received from Facebook..
"On Saturday, the 33rd LDS LGBT youth (14-20 yrs old) took their life, since the November 5th policy came out. 32 is only the number that is confirmed. True numbers are obviously likely higher. And attempts? No conceivable way to know."
http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/johnwright/32_young_lgbt_mormons_have_committed_suicide_since_early_november_group_says
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Posted: 28 January 2016 01:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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This is horrendously sad. We can't seem to get reparations for tithing money they extorted from us. Hopefully, some of these families can organize a legal team and litigate for the damages pain and suffering from this revelation policy. That damn cult can not be completely enshrined in protection from being sued. 
 
STAYlds my ASS!
 
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Posted: 28 January 2016 04:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith
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The LDS Polciy towards the LGBT community is horrible and self-serving to the institution. It is sad that even one LGBT youth in the Church would take their life, due to the un-Christlike love emmulated from the Q15.
 
Unfortunately this is not just an LDS problem. The Suicide Prevention Resource Center estimates that between 30-40% of LGBT youth have attempted suicide. This statistic, if correct, is an outrage and our society should be completely ashamed that in 2016, we can make people feel so broken, ashamed and unsafe that suicide is their only option.
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Posted: 28 January 2016 05:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
Hank
Long Timer
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Joined  2014-08-26
 
  
 
I'm sure church policy (new & old) have caused the suicide of many people for various reasons. Here and there I see claims of the number of church caused suicide, but never a source. Does anyone have some solid sources for these stats? If there were any, I would gladly post/refer to it in my Facebook for all my TBM people to see. I think if TBM's understood this fact, many would at least change thier approach a little.
 
Otherwise it is "he said, she said" and not credible.


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 07:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
leftasteen
Jr. Member
RankRank
Joined  2014-12-08
 
  
 
No worries. Based on history, God will call up the Prophet and modify this beta version of the policy.  
 
Just like Polygamy, and Blacks, the Lord will study these statistics, and other followup data, and re-issue a new Eternal Truth.
 
I am sure it will have nothing to do with Earthly pressures like laws, or the NCAA threatening BYU's NCAA status, or Tax Exemp Status, or a Civil Suit.  Obviously the Lord is not swayed by such earthly, mundane details. 
 
It will be glorious.  The Prophet will announce the divine revelation, and the Quorum of the 12 will issue the regulations. Once again, the LDS Church will be the one true religion, version 12.6. 
 
 


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 08:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
peace out
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined  2010-06-02
 
  
 
This is horrible regardless but what would be the normal rate of these events? Is there any way to know and thus track it back to this policy?
 
That would get media attention and thus become a lighting rod for further light and knowledge being provided. 
 


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 08:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
Avatar
tab
Long Timer
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Joined  2008-09-02
 
  
 
Hank:
I'm sure church policy (new & old) have caused the suicide of many people for various reasons. Here and there I see claims of the number of church caused suicide, but never a source. Does anyone have some solid sources for these stats? If there were any, I would gladly post/refer to it in my Facebook for all my TBM people to see. I think if TBM's understood this fact, many would at least change thier approach a little.
 
Otherwise it is "he said, she said" and not credible.
 
 
Here is the information I have on the source of the reported suicides:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10207705873541297&id=1126446353&hc_location=ufi
"I am getting repeated requests for information about my sources substantiating an apparent dramatic increase in LGBT Mormon suicides. I've been answering the same question again and again on numerous threads, so I'll post it once more here. Feel free to share this as appropriate. As a leader within the LGBT Mormon community, I've observed signs of widespread trauma and depression within our community, and am personally aware of two (fortunately unsuccessful) suicide attempts.
Wendy Williams Montgomery is a leader in the Dragon Mamas community, mothers of LGBT Mormon kids. In the weeks since the announcement about the new LDS policy on gay families, she's heard from 32 different families reporting the suicide of an LGBT sibling or child. Wendy has the names of the individuals and families, who at this time have asked for privacy. Trying to count LGBT Mormon suicides from public sources is fairly difficult, since suicides are often miscounted as accidents, and/or the individuals may not be out of the closet or otherwise known to be LGB or T. Many families who are aware of their family member's sexual orientation or gender identity may be ashamed to reveal the information. Since a direct report by an immediate family member is the most reliable source on an LGBT Mormon suicide, I have to assume that the actual impact is significantly larger than these numbers indicate."
--------------
Since my own son (Utah Mormon) contaminated by LDS dogma, took his life shortly before the policy came out.. I can understand how the families reported above feel.
 Signature
“If they can get you to believe in absurdity, then they can get you to commit atrocity.” -Voltaire


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 09:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Celestial Wedgie
Long Timer
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Joined  2010-10-03
 
  
 
leftasteen:
No worries. Based on history, God will call up the Prophet and modify this beta version of the policy.  
 
Just like Polygamy, and Blacks, the Lord will study these statistics, and other followup data, and re-issue a new Eternal Truth.
 
I am sure it will have nothing to do with Earthly pressures like laws, or the NCAA threatening BYU's NCAA status, or Tax Exemp Status, or a Civil Suit.  Obviously the Lord is not swayed by such earthly, mundane details. 
 
It will be glorious.  The Prophet will announce the divine revelation, and the Quorum of the 12 will issue the regulations. Once again, the LDS Church will be the one true religion, version 12.6. 
 
 
 
 + !!! Oh man, wonderfully worded! Thanks so much! 


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 09:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Celestial Wedgie
Long Timer
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Joined  2010-10-03
 
  
 
tab:
 
 
[snip] 
 
Since my own son (Utah Mormon) contaminated by LDS dogma, took his life shortly before the policy came out.. I can understand how the families reported above feel.
 
 I am so so sorry for this.   This whole thread (well, other than the wickedly funny post by leftasteen) is too sad to bear.


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 09:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Winyan
Long Timer
RankRankRankRankRank
Joined  2007-10-31
 
  
 
tab:
Hank:
I'm sure church policy (new & old) have caused the suicide of many people for various reasons. Here and there I see claims of the number of church caused suicide, but never a source. Does anyone have some solid sources for these stats? If there were any, I would gladly post/refer to it in my Facebook for all my TBM people to see. I think if TBM's understood this fact, many would at least change thier approach a little.
 
Otherwise it is "he said, she said" and not credible.
 
 
Here is the information I have on the source of the reported suicides:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10207705873541297&id=1126446353&hc_location=ufi
"I am getting repeated requests for information about my sources substantiating an apparent dramatic increase in LGBT Mormon suicides. I've been answering the same question again and again on numerous threads, so I'll post it once more here. Feel free to share this as appropriate. As a leader within the LGBT Mormon community, I've observed signs of widespread trauma and depression within our community, and am personally aware of two (fortunately unsuccessful) suicide attempts.
Wendy Williams Montgomery is a leader in the Dragon Mamas community, mothers of LGBT Mormon kids. In the weeks since the announcement about the new LDS policy on gay families, she's heard from 32 different families reporting the suicide of an LGBT sibling or child. Wendy has the names of the individuals and families, who at this time have asked for privacy. Trying to count LGBT Mormon suicides from public sources is fairly difficult, since suicides are often miscounted as accidents, and/or the individuals may not be out of the closet or otherwise known to be LGB or T. Many families who are aware of their family member's sexual orientation or gender identity may be ashamed to reveal the information. Since a direct report by an immediate family member is the most reliable source on an LGBT Mormon suicide, I have to assume that the actual impact is significantly larger than these numbers indicate."
--------------
Since my own son (Utah Mormon) contaminated by LDS dogma, took his life shortly before the policy came out.. I can understand how the families reported above feel.
 
 I'm so sorry to hear about your son. Sending thoughts of comfort for you and your family.
 


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 10:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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tab:
Hank:
I'm sure church policy (new & old) have caused the suicide of many people for various reasons. Here and there I see claims of the number of church caused suicide, but never a source. Does anyone have some solid sources for these stats? If there were any, I would gladly post/refer to it in my Facebook for all my TBM people to see. I think if TBM's understood this fact, many would at least change thier approach a little.
 
Otherwise it is "he said, she said" and not credible.
 
 
Here is the information I have on the source of the reported suicides:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10207705873541297&id=1126446353&hc_location=ufi
"I am getting repeated requests for information about my sources substantiating an apparent dramatic increase in LGBT Mormon suicides. I've been answering the same question again and again on numerous threads, so I'll post it once more here. Feel free to share this as appropriate. As a leader within the LGBT Mormon community, I've observed signs of widespread trauma and depression within our community, and am personally aware of two (fortunately unsuccessful) suicide attempts.
Wendy Williams Montgomery is a leader in the Dragon Mamas community, mothers of LGBT Mormon kids. In the weeks since the announcement about the new LDS policy on gay families, she's heard from 32 different families reporting the suicide of an LGBT sibling or child. Wendy has the names of the individuals and families, who at this time have asked for privacy. Trying to count LGBT Mormon suicides from public sources is fairly difficult, since suicides are often miscounted as accidents, and/or the individuals may not be out of the closet or otherwise known to be LGB or T. Many families who are aware of their family member's sexual orientation or gender identity may be ashamed to reveal the information. Since a direct report by an immediate family member is the most reliable source on an LGBT Mormon suicide, I have to assume that the actual impact is significantly larger than these numbers indicate."
--------------
Since my own son (Utah Mormon) contaminated by LDS dogma, took his life shortly before the policy came out.. I can understand how the families reported above feel.
 
 Tab, I am so sorry about your son.  
 Signature
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

Phillip K. Dick


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 12:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
Hank
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
tab:
Hank:
I'm sure church policy (new & old) have caused the suicide of many people for various reasons. Here and there I see claims of the number of church caused suicide, but never a source. Does anyone have some solid sources for these stats? If there were any, I would gladly post/refer to it in my Facebook for all my TBM people to see. I think if TBM's understood this fact, many would at least change thier approach a little.
 
Otherwise it is "he said, she said" and not credible.
 
 
Here is the information I have on the source of the reported suicides:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10207705873541297&id=1126446353&hc_location=ufi
"I am getting repeated requests for information about my sources substantiating an apparent dramatic increase in LGBT Mormon suicides. I've been answering the same question again and again on numerous threads, so I'll post it once more here. Feel free to share this as appropriate. As a leader within the LGBT Mormon community, I've observed signs of widespread trauma and depression within our community, and am personally aware of two (fortunately unsuccessful) suicide attempts.
Wendy Williams Montgomery is a leader in the Dragon Mamas community, mothers of LGBT Mormon kids. In the weeks since the announcement about the new LDS policy on gay families, she's heard from 32 different families reporting the suicide of an LGBT sibling or child. Wendy has the names of the individuals and families, who at this time have asked for privacy. Trying to count LGBT Mormon suicides from public sources is fairly difficult, since suicides are often miscounted as accidents, and/or the individuals may not be out of the closet or otherwise known to be LGB or T. Many families who are aware of their family member's sexual orientation or gender identity may be ashamed to reveal the information. Since a direct report by an immediate family member is the most reliable source on an LGBT Mormon suicide, I have to assume that the actual impact is significantly larger than these numbers indicate."
--------------
Since my own son (Utah Mormon) contaminated by LDS dogma, took his life shortly before the policy came out.. I can understand how the families reported above feel.
 
 Tab, I am so sorry about your son.  
 Tab, I didn't see the bottom of your post until Brad's reply. My deepest sympathy to you about your son. May the good memories give you some peace.
 


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 04:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Thanks for the kind words. The main thing I hope that comes out of my own situation is that folks talk about suicide prevention. The denial of mental health issues by my sons local LDS family members and unwillingness to support The American Foundation For Suicide Prevention or the Trevor project is hard for me to understand. There is more to suicide prevention than God and Jesus. At the graveside service the first thing the bishop said was that it's not for anyone here to judge what happened here, God is the final judge. I was thinking, why would someone judge someone for having a mental illness? Why is it any different judging folks for having cancer, or heart disease?
For me, even though I'm an atheist, this would have been a much better message:
"It’s more than tragic—in fact it’s shameful—that faith communities, especially Christian ones, continue to be complicit in putting our children at risk and abetting the attitudes that oppress them, thereby encouraging the aggressors who would subject our children to pain, humiliation, and violence. LGBT men and women will continue to be vulnerable to the sins of homophobia and heterosexism, to the violence of hate and fear until we in the church can say to homosexuals now what it has said to heterosexuals for 2,000 years. Your sexuality is good. The church not only accepts it. The church celebrates it and rejoices in it. God loves you as you are, and the church can do no less." 2014 Episcopal Message - National Cathedral
----------------------------------------------
More info on LGBT Youth suicides:
32 LGBT Mormons Aged 14-20 Have Committed Suicide in Wake of New Anti-Gay Policy, Group Says
http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/johnwright/32_young_lgbt_mormons_have_committed_suicide_since_early_november_group_says
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Culling The Flock - New Policy  
Posted: 27 January 2016 10:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Thought I share this post I received from Facebook..
"On Saturday, the 33rd LDS LGBT youth (14-20 yrs old) took their life, since the November 5th policy came out. 32 is only the number that is confirmed. True numbers are obviously likely higher. And attempts? No conceivable way to know."
http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/johnwright/32_young_lgbt_mormons_have_committed_suicide_since_early_november_group_says
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Posted: 28 January 2016 01:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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This is horrendously sad. We can't seem to get reparations for tithing money they extorted from us. Hopefully, some of these families can organize a legal team and litigate for the damages pain and suffering from this revelation policy. That damn cult can not be completely enshrined in protection from being sued. 
 
STAYlds my ASS!
 
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Posted: 28 January 2016 04:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith
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The LDS Polciy towards the LGBT community is horrible and self-serving to the institution. It is sad that even one LGBT youth in the Church would take their life, due to the un-Christlike love emmulated from the Q15.
 
Unfortunately this is not just an LDS problem. The Suicide Prevention Resource Center estimates that between 30-40% of LGBT youth have attempted suicide. This statistic, if correct, is an outrage and our society should be completely ashamed that in 2016, we can make people feel so broken, ashamed and unsafe that suicide is their only option.
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Posted: 28 January 2016 05:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
Hank
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I'm sure church policy (new & old) have caused the suicide of many people for various reasons. Here and there I see claims of the number of church caused suicide, but never a source. Does anyone have some solid sources for these stats? If there were any, I would gladly post/refer to it in my Facebook for all my TBM people to see. I think if TBM's understood this fact, many would at least change thier approach a little.
 
Otherwise it is "he said, she said" and not credible.


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 07:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
leftasteen
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No worries. Based on history, God will call up the Prophet and modify this beta version of the policy.  
 
Just like Polygamy, and Blacks, the Lord will study these statistics, and other followup data, and re-issue a new Eternal Truth.
 
I am sure it will have nothing to do with Earthly pressures like laws, or the NCAA threatening BYU's NCAA status, or Tax Exemp Status, or a Civil Suit.  Obviously the Lord is not swayed by such earthly, mundane details. 
 
It will be glorious.  The Prophet will announce the divine revelation, and the Quorum of the 12 will issue the regulations. Once again, the LDS Church will be the one true religion, version 12.6. 
 
 


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 08:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
peace out
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This is horrible regardless but what would be the normal rate of these events? Is there any way to know and thus track it back to this policy?
 
That would get media attention and thus become a lighting rod for further light and knowledge being provided. 
 


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 08:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Hank:
I'm sure church policy (new & old) have caused the suicide of many people for various reasons. Here and there I see claims of the number of church caused suicide, but never a source. Does anyone have some solid sources for these stats? If there were any, I would gladly post/refer to it in my Facebook for all my TBM people to see. I think if TBM's understood this fact, many would at least change thier approach a little.
 
Otherwise it is "he said, she said" and not credible.
 
 
Here is the information I have on the source of the reported suicides:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10207705873541297&id=1126446353&hc_location=ufi
"I am getting repeated requests for information about my sources substantiating an apparent dramatic increase in LGBT Mormon suicides. I've been answering the same question again and again on numerous threads, so I'll post it once more here. Feel free to share this as appropriate. As a leader within the LGBT Mormon community, I've observed signs of widespread trauma and depression within our community, and am personally aware of two (fortunately unsuccessful) suicide attempts.
Wendy Williams Montgomery is a leader in the Dragon Mamas community, mothers of LGBT Mormon kids. In the weeks since the announcement about the new LDS policy on gay families, she's heard from 32 different families reporting the suicide of an LGBT sibling or child. Wendy has the names of the individuals and families, who at this time have asked for privacy. Trying to count LGBT Mormon suicides from public sources is fairly difficult, since suicides are often miscounted as accidents, and/or the individuals may not be out of the closet or otherwise known to be LGB or T. Many families who are aware of their family member's sexual orientation or gender identity may be ashamed to reveal the information. Since a direct report by an immediate family member is the most reliable source on an LGBT Mormon suicide, I have to assume that the actual impact is significantly larger than these numbers indicate."
--------------
Since my own son (Utah Mormon) contaminated by LDS dogma, took his life shortly before the policy came out.. I can understand how the families reported above feel.
 Signature
“If they can get you to believe in absurdity, then they can get you to commit atrocity.” -Voltaire


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 09:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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leftasteen:
No worries. Based on history, God will call up the Prophet and modify this beta version of the policy.  
 
Just like Polygamy, and Blacks, the Lord will study these statistics, and other followup data, and re-issue a new Eternal Truth.
 
I am sure it will have nothing to do with Earthly pressures like laws, or the NCAA threatening BYU's NCAA status, or Tax Exemp Status, or a Civil Suit.  Obviously the Lord is not swayed by such earthly, mundane details. 
 
It will be glorious.  The Prophet will announce the divine revelation, and the Quorum of the 12 will issue the regulations. Once again, the LDS Church will be the one true religion, version 12.6. 
 
 
 
 + !!! Oh man, wonderfully worded! Thanks so much! 


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 09:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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tab:
 
 
[snip] 
 
Since my own son (Utah Mormon) contaminated by LDS dogma, took his life shortly before the policy came out.. I can understand how the families reported above feel.
 
 I am so so sorry for this.   This whole thread (well, other than the wickedly funny post by leftasteen) is too sad to bear.


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 09:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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Joined  2007-10-31
 
  
 
tab:
Hank:
I'm sure church policy (new & old) have caused the suicide of many people for various reasons. Here and there I see claims of the number of church caused suicide, but never a source. Does anyone have some solid sources for these stats? If there were any, I would gladly post/refer to it in my Facebook for all my TBM people to see. I think if TBM's understood this fact, many would at least change thier approach a little.
 
Otherwise it is "he said, she said" and not credible.
 
 
Here is the information I have on the source of the reported suicides:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10207705873541297&id=1126446353&hc_location=ufi
"I am getting repeated requests for information about my sources substantiating an apparent dramatic increase in LGBT Mormon suicides. I've been answering the same question again and again on numerous threads, so I'll post it once more here. Feel free to share this as appropriate. As a leader within the LGBT Mormon community, I've observed signs of widespread trauma and depression within our community, and am personally aware of two (fortunately unsuccessful) suicide attempts.
Wendy Williams Montgomery is a leader in the Dragon Mamas community, mothers of LGBT Mormon kids. In the weeks since the announcement about the new LDS policy on gay families, she's heard from 32 different families reporting the suicide of an LGBT sibling or child. Wendy has the names of the individuals and families, who at this time have asked for privacy. Trying to count LGBT Mormon suicides from public sources is fairly difficult, since suicides are often miscounted as accidents, and/or the individuals may not be out of the closet or otherwise known to be LGB or T. Many families who are aware of their family member's sexual orientation or gender identity may be ashamed to reveal the information. Since a direct report by an immediate family member is the most reliable source on an LGBT Mormon suicide, I have to assume that the actual impact is significantly larger than these numbers indicate."
--------------
Since my own son (Utah Mormon) contaminated by LDS dogma, took his life shortly before the policy came out.. I can understand how the families reported above feel.
 
 I'm so sorry to hear about your son. Sending thoughts of comfort for you and your family.
 


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 10:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Brad (ZeeZrom)
Administrator
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Joined  2007-05-08
 
  
 
tab:
Hank:
I'm sure church policy (new & old) have caused the suicide of many people for various reasons. Here and there I see claims of the number of church caused suicide, but never a source. Does anyone have some solid sources for these stats? If there were any, I would gladly post/refer to it in my Facebook for all my TBM people to see. I think if TBM's understood this fact, many would at least change thier approach a little.
 
Otherwise it is "he said, she said" and not credible.
 
 
Here is the information I have on the source of the reported suicides:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10207705873541297&id=1126446353&hc_location=ufi
"I am getting repeated requests for information about my sources substantiating an apparent dramatic increase in LGBT Mormon suicides. I've been answering the same question again and again on numerous threads, so I'll post it once more here. Feel free to share this as appropriate. As a leader within the LGBT Mormon community, I've observed signs of widespread trauma and depression within our community, and am personally aware of two (fortunately unsuccessful) suicide attempts.
Wendy Williams Montgomery is a leader in the Dragon Mamas community, mothers of LGBT Mormon kids. In the weeks since the announcement about the new LDS policy on gay families, she's heard from 32 different families reporting the suicide of an LGBT sibling or child. Wendy has the names of the individuals and families, who at this time have asked for privacy. Trying to count LGBT Mormon suicides from public sources is fairly difficult, since suicides are often miscounted as accidents, and/or the individuals may not be out of the closet or otherwise known to be LGB or T. Many families who are aware of their family member's sexual orientation or gender identity may be ashamed to reveal the information. Since a direct report by an immediate family member is the most reliable source on an LGBT Mormon suicide, I have to assume that the actual impact is significantly larger than these numbers indicate."
--------------
Since my own son (Utah Mormon) contaminated by LDS dogma, took his life shortly before the policy came out.. I can understand how the families reported above feel.
 
 Tab, I am so sorry about your son.  
 Signature
Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

Phillip K. Dick


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 12:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
Hank
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Joined  2014-08-26
 
  
 
Brad (ZeeZrom):
tab:
Hank:
I'm sure church policy (new & old) have caused the suicide of many people for various reasons. Here and there I see claims of the number of church caused suicide, but never a source. Does anyone have some solid sources for these stats? If there were any, I would gladly post/refer to it in my Facebook for all my TBM people to see. I think if TBM's understood this fact, many would at least change thier approach a little.
 
Otherwise it is "he said, she said" and not credible.
 
 
Here is the information I have on the source of the reported suicides:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10207705873541297&id=1126446353&hc_location=ufi
"I am getting repeated requests for information about my sources substantiating an apparent dramatic increase in LGBT Mormon suicides. I've been answering the same question again and again on numerous threads, so I'll post it once more here. Feel free to share this as appropriate. As a leader within the LGBT Mormon community, I've observed signs of widespread trauma and depression within our community, and am personally aware of two (fortunately unsuccessful) suicide attempts.
Wendy Williams Montgomery is a leader in the Dragon Mamas community, mothers of LGBT Mormon kids. In the weeks since the announcement about the new LDS policy on gay families, she's heard from 32 different families reporting the suicide of an LGBT sibling or child. Wendy has the names of the individuals and families, who at this time have asked for privacy. Trying to count LGBT Mormon suicides from public sources is fairly difficult, since suicides are often miscounted as accidents, and/or the individuals may not be out of the closet or otherwise known to be LGB or T. Many families who are aware of their family member's sexual orientation or gender identity may be ashamed to reveal the information. Since a direct report by an immediate family member is the most reliable source on an LGBT Mormon suicide, I have to assume that the actual impact is significantly larger than these numbers indicate."
--------------
Since my own son (Utah Mormon) contaminated by LDS dogma, took his life shortly before the policy came out.. I can understand how the families reported above feel.
 
 Tab, I am so sorry about your son.  
 Tab, I didn't see the bottom of your post until Brad's reply. My deepest sympathy to you about your son. May the good memories give you some peace.
 


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 04:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Thanks for the kind words. The main thing I hope that comes out of my own situation is that folks talk about suicide prevention. The denial of mental health issues by my sons local LDS family members and unwillingness to support The American Foundation For Suicide Prevention or the Trevor project is hard for me to understand. There is more to suicide prevention than God and Jesus. At the graveside service the first thing the bishop said was that it's not for anyone here to judge what happened here, God is the final judge. I was thinking, why would someone judge someone for having a mental illness? Why is it any different judging folks for having cancer, or heart disease?
For me, even though I'm an atheist, this would have been a much better message:
"It’s more than tragic—in fact it’s shameful—that faith communities, especially Christian ones, continue to be complicit in putting our children at risk and abetting the attitudes that oppress them, thereby encouraging the aggressors who would subject our children to pain, humiliation, and violence. LGBT men and women will continue to be vulnerable to the sins of homophobia and heterosexism, to the violence of hate and fear until we in the church can say to homosexuals now what it has said to heterosexuals for 2,000 years. Your sexuality is good. The church not only accepts it. The church celebrates it and rejoices in it. God loves you as you are, and the church can do no less." 2014 Episcopal Message - National Cathedral
----------------------------------------------
More info on LGBT Youth suicides:
32 LGBT Mormons Aged 14-20 Have Committed Suicide in Wake of New Anti-Gay Policy, Group Says
http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/johnwright/32_young_lgbt_mormons_have_committed_suicide_since_early_november_group_says
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Culling The Flock - New Policy  
Posted: 27 January 2016 10:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Thought I share this post I received from Facebook..
"On Saturday, the 33rd LDS LGBT youth (14-20 yrs old) took their life, since the November 5th policy came out. 32 is only the number that is confirmed. True numbers are obviously likely higher. And attempts? No conceivable way to know."
http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/johnwright/32_young_lgbt_mormons_have_committed_suicide_since_early_november_group_says
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Posted: 28 January 2016 01:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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This is horrendously sad. We can't seem to get reparations for tithing money they extorted from us. Hopefully, some of these families can organize a legal team and litigate for the damages pain and suffering from this revelation policy. That damn cult can not be completely enshrined in protection from being sued. 
 
STAYlds my ASS!
 
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Posted: 28 January 2016 04:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith
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The LDS Polciy towards the LGBT community is horrible and self-serving to the institution. It is sad that even one LGBT youth in the Church would take their life, due to the un-Christlike love emmulated from the Q15.
 
Unfortunately this is not just an LDS problem. The Suicide Prevention Resource Center estimates that between 30-40% of LGBT youth have attempted suicide. This statistic, if correct, is an outrage and our society should be completely ashamed that in 2016, we can make people feel so broken, ashamed and unsafe that suicide is their only option.
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Posted: 28 January 2016 05:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
Hank
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I'm sure church policy (new & old) have caused the suicide of many people for various reasons. Here and there I see claims of the number of church caused suicide, but never a source. Does anyone have some solid sources for these stats? If there were any, I would gladly post/refer to it in my Facebook for all my TBM people to see. I think if TBM's understood this fact, many would at least change thier approach a little.
 
Otherwise it is "he said, she said" and not credible.


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 07:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
leftasteen
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No worries. Based on history, God will call up the Prophet and modify this beta version of the policy.  
 
Just like Polygamy, and Blacks, the Lord will study these statistics, and other followup data, and re-issue a new Eternal Truth.
 
I am sure it will have nothing to do with Earthly pressures like laws, or the NCAA threatening BYU's NCAA status, or Tax Exemp Status, or a Civil Suit.  Obviously the Lord is not swayed by such earthly, mundane details. 
 
It will be glorious.  The Prophet will announce the divine revelation, and the Quorum of the 12 will issue the regulations. Once again, the LDS Church will be the one true religion, version 12.6. 
 
 


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 08:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
peace out
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This is horrible regardless but what would be the normal rate of these events? Is there any way to know and thus track it back to this policy?
 
That would get media attention and thus become a lighting rod for further light and knowledge being provided. 
 


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 08:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Hank:
I'm sure church policy (new & old) have caused the suicide of many people for various reasons. Here and there I see claims of the number of church caused suicide, but never a source. Does anyone have some solid sources for these stats? If there were any, I would gladly post/refer to it in my Facebook for all my TBM people to see. I think if TBM's understood this fact, many would at least change thier approach a little.
 
Otherwise it is "he said, she said" and not credible.
 
 
Here is the information I have on the source of the reported suicides:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10207705873541297&id=1126446353&hc_location=ufi
"I am getting repeated requests for information about my sources substantiating an apparent dramatic increase in LGBT Mormon suicides. I've been answering the same question again and again on numerous threads, so I'll post it once more here. Feel free to share this as appropriate. As a leader within the LGBT Mormon community, I've observed signs of widespread trauma and depression within our community, and am personally aware of two (fortunately unsuccessful) suicide attempts.
Wendy Williams Montgomery is a leader in the Dragon Mamas community, mothers of LGBT Mormon kids. In the weeks since the announcement about the new LDS policy on gay families, she's heard from 32 different families reporting the suicide of an LGBT sibling or child. Wendy has the names of the individuals and families, who at this time have asked for privacy. Trying to count LGBT Mormon suicides from public sources is fairly difficult, since suicides are often miscounted as accidents, and/or the individuals may not be out of the closet or otherwise known to be LGB or T. Many families who are aware of their family member's sexual orientation or gender identity may be ashamed to reveal the information. Since a direct report by an immediate family member is the most reliable source on an LGBT Mormon suicide, I have to assume that the actual impact is significantly larger than these numbers indicate."
--------------
Since my own son (Utah Mormon) contaminated by LDS dogma, took his life shortly before the policy came out.. I can understand how the families reported above feel.
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Posted: 28 January 2016 09:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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leftasteen:
No worries. Based on history, God will call up the Prophet and modify this beta version of the policy.  
 
Just like Polygamy, and Blacks, the Lord will study these statistics, and other followup data, and re-issue a new Eternal Truth.
 
I am sure it will have nothing to do with Earthly pressures like laws, or the NCAA threatening BYU's NCAA status, or Tax Exemp Status, or a Civil Suit.  Obviously the Lord is not swayed by such earthly, mundane details. 
 
It will be glorious.  The Prophet will announce the divine revelation, and the Quorum of the 12 will issue the regulations. Once again, the LDS Church will be the one true religion, version 12.6. 
 
 
 
 + !!! Oh man, wonderfully worded! Thanks so much! 


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 09:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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tab:
 
 
[snip] 
 
Since my own son (Utah Mormon) contaminated by LDS dogma, took his life shortly before the policy came out.. I can understand how the families reported above feel.
 
 I am so so sorry for this.   This whole thread (well, other than the wickedly funny post by leftasteen) is too sad to bear.


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 09:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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tab:
Hank:
I'm sure church policy (new & old) have caused the suicide of many people for various reasons. Here and there I see claims of the number of church caused suicide, but never a source. Does anyone have some solid sources for these stats? If there were any, I would gladly post/refer to it in my Facebook for all my TBM people to see. I think if TBM's understood this fact, many would at least change thier approach a little.
 
Otherwise it is "he said, she said" and not credible.
 
 
Here is the information I have on the source of the reported suicides:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10207705873541297&id=1126446353&hc_location=ufi
"I am getting repeated requests for information about my sources substantiating an apparent dramatic increase in LGBT Mormon suicides. I've been answering the same question again and again on numerous threads, so I'll post it once more here. Feel free to share this as appropriate. As a leader within the LGBT Mormon community, I've observed signs of widespread trauma and depression within our community, and am personally aware of two (fortunately unsuccessful) suicide attempts.
Wendy Williams Montgomery is a leader in the Dragon Mamas community, mothers of LGBT Mormon kids. In the weeks since the announcement about the new LDS policy on gay families, she's heard from 32 different families reporting the suicide of an LGBT sibling or child. Wendy has the names of the individuals and families, who at this time have asked for privacy. Trying to count LGBT Mormon suicides from public sources is fairly difficult, since suicides are often miscounted as accidents, and/or the individuals may not be out of the closet or otherwise known to be LGB or T. Many families who are aware of their family member's sexual orientation or gender identity may be ashamed to reveal the information. Since a direct report by an immediate family member is the most reliable source on an LGBT Mormon suicide, I have to assume that the actual impact is significantly larger than these numbers indicate."
--------------
Since my own son (Utah Mormon) contaminated by LDS dogma, took his life shortly before the policy came out.. I can understand how the families reported above feel.
 
 I'm so sorry to hear about your son. Sending thoughts of comfort for you and your family.
 


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 10:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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tab:
Hank:
I'm sure church policy (new & old) have caused the suicide of many people for various reasons. Here and there I see claims of the number of church caused suicide, but never a source. Does anyone have some solid sources for these stats? If there were any, I would gladly post/refer to it in my Facebook for all my TBM people to see. I think if TBM's understood this fact, many would at least change thier approach a little.
 
Otherwise it is "he said, she said" and not credible.
 
 
Here is the information I have on the source of the reported suicides:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10207705873541297&id=1126446353&hc_location=ufi
"I am getting repeated requests for information about my sources substantiating an apparent dramatic increase in LGBT Mormon suicides. I've been answering the same question again and again on numerous threads, so I'll post it once more here. Feel free to share this as appropriate. As a leader within the LGBT Mormon community, I've observed signs of widespread trauma and depression within our community, and am personally aware of two (fortunately unsuccessful) suicide attempts.
Wendy Williams Montgomery is a leader in the Dragon Mamas community, mothers of LGBT Mormon kids. In the weeks since the announcement about the new LDS policy on gay families, she's heard from 32 different families reporting the suicide of an LGBT sibling or child. Wendy has the names of the individuals and families, who at this time have asked for privacy. Trying to count LGBT Mormon suicides from public sources is fairly difficult, since suicides are often miscounted as accidents, and/or the individuals may not be out of the closet or otherwise known to be LGB or T. Many families who are aware of their family member's sexual orientation or gender identity may be ashamed to reveal the information. Since a direct report by an immediate family member is the most reliable source on an LGBT Mormon suicide, I have to assume that the actual impact is significantly larger than these numbers indicate."
--------------
Since my own son (Utah Mormon) contaminated by LDS dogma, took his life shortly before the policy came out.. I can understand how the families reported above feel.
 
 Tab, I am so sorry about your son.  
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Posted: 28 January 2016 12:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
Hank
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
tab:
Hank:
I'm sure church policy (new & old) have caused the suicide of many people for various reasons. Here and there I see claims of the number of church caused suicide, but never a source. Does anyone have some solid sources for these stats? If there were any, I would gladly post/refer to it in my Facebook for all my TBM people to see. I think if TBM's understood this fact, many would at least change thier approach a little.
 
Otherwise it is "he said, she said" and not credible.
 
 
Here is the information I have on the source of the reported suicides:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10207705873541297&id=1126446353&hc_location=ufi
"I am getting repeated requests for information about my sources substantiating an apparent dramatic increase in LGBT Mormon suicides. I've been answering the same question again and again on numerous threads, so I'll post it once more here. Feel free to share this as appropriate. As a leader within the LGBT Mormon community, I've observed signs of widespread trauma and depression within our community, and am personally aware of two (fortunately unsuccessful) suicide attempts.
Wendy Williams Montgomery is a leader in the Dragon Mamas community, mothers of LGBT Mormon kids. In the weeks since the announcement about the new LDS policy on gay families, she's heard from 32 different families reporting the suicide of an LGBT sibling or child. Wendy has the names of the individuals and families, who at this time have asked for privacy. Trying to count LGBT Mormon suicides from public sources is fairly difficult, since suicides are often miscounted as accidents, and/or the individuals may not be out of the closet or otherwise known to be LGB or T. Many families who are aware of their family member's sexual orientation or gender identity may be ashamed to reveal the information. Since a direct report by an immediate family member is the most reliable source on an LGBT Mormon suicide, I have to assume that the actual impact is significantly larger than these numbers indicate."
--------------
Since my own son (Utah Mormon) contaminated by LDS dogma, took his life shortly before the policy came out.. I can understand how the families reported above feel.
 
 Tab, I am so sorry about your son.  
 Tab, I didn't see the bottom of your post until Brad's reply. My deepest sympathy to you about your son. May the good memories give you some peace.
 


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 04:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Thanks for the kind words. The main thing I hope that comes out of my own situation is that folks talk about suicide prevention. The denial of mental health issues by my sons local LDS family members and unwillingness to support The American Foundation For Suicide Prevention or the Trevor project is hard for me to understand. There is more to suicide prevention than God and Jesus. At the graveside service the first thing the bishop said was that it's not for anyone here to judge what happened here, God is the final judge. I was thinking, why would someone judge someone for having a mental illness? Why is it any different judging folks for having cancer, or heart disease?
For me, even though I'm an atheist, this would have been a much better message:
"It’s more than tragic—in fact it’s shameful—that faith communities, especially Christian ones, continue to be complicit in putting our children at risk and abetting the attitudes that oppress them, thereby encouraging the aggressors who would subject our children to pain, humiliation, and violence. LGBT men and women will continue to be vulnerable to the sins of homophobia and heterosexism, to the violence of hate and fear until we in the church can say to homosexuals now what it has said to heterosexuals for 2,000 years. Your sexuality is good. The church not only accepts it. The church celebrates it and rejoices in it. God loves you as you are, and the church can do no less." 2014 Episcopal Message - National Cathedral
----------------------------------------------
More info on LGBT Youth suicides:
32 LGBT Mormons Aged 14-20 Have Committed Suicide in Wake of New Anti-Gay Policy, Group Says
http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/johnwright/32_young_lgbt_mormons_have_committed_suicide_since_early_november_group_says
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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Met with an Area Authority Seventy—-I Wanted to Share  
Posted: 29 January 2016 12:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith
Long Timer
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Joined  2011-09-26
 
  
 
If I have a complaint, it was the vagueness of the Stake Executive Secretary (SES). I had a missed call on a Friday night and a brief message on my voice mail from the SES, asking me to return the call. Early Saturday morning I went to the gym, and again I missed a call from the SES. This time, however, no waiting; another call, within 30 seconds, went directly to my wife's cellphone. The vagueness of the SES, did however, work to my advantage.
 
DW didn't realize to whom we were being asked to meet, and our day was already planned to watch our son's tournament games. Throughout the day, the SES kept calling as if the world was coming to an end, trying try set up a meeting with the SP and Elder ___. After they realized that a meeting with us on Saturday would not work, they relented and asked my wife if we could meet on Sunday. DW said yes, with the question pending, would I accompany her? Still at this point my DW did not know who the Elder was---like I said "vague". It did finally dawn on me who this person might be---Was he an Area Authority Seventy (AAS); and was I being set up for an intended "soul saving intervention"?
 
I had thoughts about not going, but I also questioned if I would be forfeiting control of the situation and enabling a narrative, to be accepted by my wife, that would be less than desirable. I had thoughts about wearing my black Star Wars shirt with inverted silhouettes of Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker, Yoda, Han Solo and the Death Star under a sports coat. In the end I decided against---the only person I would have agitated is DW.
 
After I concluded that this Elder was an AAS, I did some research on his background and realized that our paths had once crossed. I decided that I would attend and in so doing, I could use any information about him to my advantage in controlling the dialog. I Google stalked him!
 
------------------------------ 

Sunday:
 
- We entered the room where AAS asked us our names. We answered.

- I asked if the AAS was formerly the SP in _________ and if he lived in the boundaries of the ____________ward? He answered yes.

- I indicated that we had lived in __________; that he had been our SP and we had attended the same Ward.

- I continued to give him bits of information about him that I had researched (area of birth and where he served as a mission president etc...)

After sitting down

- AAS asked DW and myself, "How is your faith doing?" I deferred allowing DW to answer

- DW gave a short commentary, followed by AAS telling DW that he had the authority to speak in behalf of Jesus; and Jesus was very pleased with her. Even though I wanted to roll my eyes, I did have to admit to myself, "If Jesus is sitting up in the sky, he could only say, these kind words about DW".

- AAS turned to me and asked me about my faith. My response was simple:
 
"I have had a "Faith Transition"
 
I offered no additional details. The AAS pondered my response for a few seconds.
 
- AAS then asked, "what are your feelings about Jesus?"

- My answer: "I do not like labels, but if I had to use a label, I would consider myself a Secular Humanist---If you understand what a SH is, then I think that answers your question." Both AAS and SP concurred with the affirmative nods of their heads.
 
- I followed up with some philosophical comments about my questions of: do I leave the Church, or do I stay in the Church? I ended by saying, "I am not an orthodox Mormon"
 
- AAS commented that he doesn't think there are any orthodox Mormons. Thinking after the fact, I am wondering if AAS was thinking in terms of a noun verses an adjective? To claim ‘orthodox Mormons' do not exist in the usage of an adjective, is to deny the very foundation of Mormonism and make things like TR interview question baseless and without merit---but that is a discussion for a different thread.
 
- AAS then asked, "If you are comfortable, would you tell me about your ‘Faith Transition'?"

- After a short pause I replied:
 
"I mean no disrespect, but my past experience with ecclesiastical leaders is that they have NO GENUINE interest in my story. They are only interested in engaging me to diagnose, apply, if you will, a 'computer patch' in an attempt to fix the programming, as if I am broken."
 
- AAS replied that we only knew each other a few minutes and he understood. He relented by not pushing the question further. He also looked me in the eye and said, "I do not see you as broken, or needing to be fixed"
 
Understand how big of a victory this was for me. The adulation my DW has for priesthood men in general; she receives so much validation from what comes out of their mouths. He (AAS) gave me validation to my DW. A very honorable thing to do on his part, and I thank him.
 
- AAS then asked if I ever felt an inclination to pray.
 
I thought of Star War's general Ackbar's quote: "It's a Trap!"
 
He was trying to draw me into a point of engagement where the darts of "Circular Logic" would be deployed.
 
- My response:
 
I was raised in the Mormon environment, where we were always taught to be inclined to pray. So to say that I never have these inclinations, would not be true; but in terms of psychology I also recognize the stimuli that cause these triggers.
 
Well, to say the least---that part of the conversation ended.
 
I also let the AAS and SP know that the choice for DW to worship in the Church was hers, and hers alone; I have no interest in persuading her otherwise. I also expressed that it is very difficult for me to attend any Church activities.
 
Difficult because the Mormon dogma is so one-sided; so un-objective; so lacking in critical thought and so threatening; I DO NOT feel SAFE attending Mormon functions.
 
I then continued, "I just want to invoke the 'Eleventh Article of Faith'."
 
It appeared to me that both the AAS and SP chuckled and brushed it off, like it was a cute but insignificant couplet. They do not comprehend just how strongly I feel about that invocation!
 
We then said our good byes, and I do wonder: Did 15 minutes even pass before my existence and this conversation, was ejected both from the AAS's short and long term memory?
 
The great positive is DW's witness to the conversation, and thus far it has helped her heal. Since meeting with the AAS, I feel like the relationship between DW and I has reset to a time before I obliterated her world in announcing my ‘Faith Transition"
 
I want to end by saying a "Thank You!!!" to so many of you that have helped me navigate the issues, learn the vocabulary and skills so that I could calmly, collectively, and with confidence have this type of encounter.
 
WS
 Signature
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


Posted: 29 January 2016 12:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
Administrator
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Joined  2007-05-08
 
  
 
Thanks for the report!  I'm glad the meeting went as smoothly as it did.
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

Phillip K. Dick


   


Posted: 29 January 2016 12:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
Long Timer
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Joined  2010-10-03
 
  
 
Winston, holy cow! Things took a step in the right direction due to a two-part recipe:
 (1) being ready and (2) a dash of authority.  
 
Maybe your wife now has the requisite permission to see you as not broken and not the enemy of all that is good, decent, or pleasant smelling.
 
I'm very happy for you. Way to be ready!  


   


Posted: 29 January 2016 01:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Denker
Member
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Joined  2007-12-06
 
  
 
WinstonSmith:
If I have a complaint, it was the vagueness of the Stake Executive Secretary (SES). I had a missed call on a Friday night and a brief message on my voice mail from the SES, asking me to return the call. Early Saturday morning I went to the gym, and again I missed a call from the SES. This time, however, no waiting; another call, within 30 seconds, went directly to my wife's cellphone. The vagueness of the SES, did however, work to my advantage.
 
DW didn't realize to whom we were being asked to meet, and our day was already planned to watch our son's tournament games. Throughout the day, the SES kept calling as if the world was coming to an end, trying try set up a meeting with the SP and Elder ___. After they realized that a meeting with us on Saturday would not work, they relented and asked my wife if we could meet on Sunday. DW said yes, with the question pending, would I accompany her? Still at this point my DW did not know who the Elder was---like I said "vague". It did finally dawn on me who this person might be---Was he an Area Authority Seventy (AAS); and was I being set up for an intended "soul saving intervention"?
 
I had thoughts about not going, but I also questioned if I would be forfeiting control of the situation and enabling a narrative, to be accepted by my wife, that would be less than desirable. I had thoughts about wearing my black Star Wars shirt with inverted silhouettes of Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker, Yoda, Han Solo and the Death Star under a sports coat. In the end I decided against---the only person I would have agitated is DW.
 
After I concluded that this Elder was an AAS, I did some research on his background and realized that our paths had once crossed. I decided that I would attend and in so doing, I could use any information about him to my advantage in controlling the dialog. I Google stalked him!
 
------------------------------ 

Sunday:
 
- We entered the room where AAS asked us our names. We answered.

- I asked if the AAS was formerly the SP in _________ and if he lived in the boundaries of the ____________ward? He answered yes.

- I indicated that we had lived in __________; that he had been our SP and we had attended the same Ward.

- I continued to give him bits of information about him that I had researched (area of birth and where he served as a mission president etc...)

After sitting down

- AAS asked DW and myself, "How is your faith doing?" I deferred allowing DW to answer

- DW gave a short commentary, followed by AAS telling DW that he had the authority to speak in behalf of Jesus; and Jesus was very pleased with her. Even though I wanted to roll my eyes, I did have to admit to myself, "If Jesus is sitting up in the sky, he could only say, these kind words about DW".

- AAS turned to me and asked me about my faith. My response was simple:
 
"I have had a "Faith Transition"
 
I offered no additional details. The AAS pondered my response for a few seconds.
 
- AAS then asked, "what are your feelings about Jesus?"

- My answer: "I do not like labels, but if I had to use a label, I would consider myself a Secular Humanist---If you understand what a SH is, then I think that answers your question." Both AAS and SP concurred with the affirmative nods of their heads.
 
- I followed up with some philosophical comments about my questions of: do I leave the Church, or do I stay in the Church? I ended by saying, "I am not an orthodox Mormon"
 
- AAS commented that he doesn't think there are any orthodox Mormons. Thinking after the fact, I am wondering if AAS was thinking in terms of a noun verses an adjective? To claim ‘orthodox Mormons' do not exist in the usage of an adjective, is to deny the very foundation of Mormonism and make things like TR interview question baseless and without merit---but that is a discussion for a different thread.
 
- AAS then asked, "If you are comfortable, would you tell me about your ‘Faith Transition'?"

- After a short pause I replied:
 
"I mean no disrespect, but my past experience with ecclesiastical leaders is that they have NO GENUINE interest in my story. They are only interested in engaging me to diagnose, apply, if you will, a 'computer patch' in an attempt to fix the programming, as if I am broken."
 
- AAS replied that we only knew each other a few minutes and he understood. He relented by not pushing the question further. He also looked me in the eye and said, "I do not see you as broken, or needing to be fixed"
 
Understand how big of a victory this was for me. The adulation my DW has for priesthood men in general; she receives so much validation from what comes out of their mouths. He (AAS) gave me validation to my DW. A very honorable thing to do on his part, and I thank him.
 
- AAS then asked if I ever felt an inclination to pray.
 
I thought of Star War's general Ackbar's quote: "It's a Trap!"
 
He was trying to draw me into a point of engagement where the darts of "Circular Logic" would be deployed.
 
- My response:
 
I was raised in the Mormon environment, where we were always taught to be inclined to pray. So to say that I never have these inclinations, would not be true; but in terms of psychology I also recognize the stimuli that cause these triggers.
 
Well, to say the least---that part of the conversation ended.
 
I also let the AAS and SP know that the choice for DW to worship in the Church was hers, and hers alone; I have no interest in persuading her otherwise. I also expressed that it is very difficult for me to attend any Church activities.
 
Difficult because the Mormon dogma is so one-sided; so un-objective; so lacking in critical thought and so threatening; I DO NOT feel SAFE attending Mormon functions.
 
I then continued, "I just want to invoke the 'Eleventh Article of Faith'."
 
It appeared to me that both the AAS and SP chuckled and brushed it off, like it was a cute but insignificant couplet. They do not comprehend just how strongly I feel about that invocation!
 
We then said our good byes, and I do wonder: Did 15 minutes even pass before my existence and this conversation, was ejected both from the AAS's short and long term memory?
 
The great positive is DW's witness to the conversation, and thus far it has helped her heal. Since meeting with the AAS, I feel like the relationship between DW and I has reset to a time before I obliterated her world in announcing my ‘Faith Transition"
 
I want to end by saying a "Thank You!!!" to so many of you that have helped me navigate the issues, learn the vocabulary and skills so that I could calmly, collectively, and with confidence have this type of encounter.
 
WS
 
 In the Eleventh AF, JS failed to insert a most critical word, "free" (meaning free of threats, retaliation, or prejudice).  But today within the Morg, the privilege is not free of consequences if "the dictates of our own conscience" are not in line.


   


Posted: 29 January 2016 01:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
Long Timer
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Joined  2011-01-22
 
  
 
You're my hero, Winston Smith (at least for today!) You handled it very well. The bonus is hearing him tell you that you're not broken, and right in front of your wife. Top notch stuff, there. It's good to be reminded that the GAs are not all power hungry douche bags.
 Signature
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 29 January 2016 01:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
Long Timer
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Joined  2014-07-23
 
  
 
Winston(I am not trying to be wiseacre or suck up) but I hope when/if the time comes for me to have such an experience(of course, I'm a chicken shit and there's no way in hell, I would ever consent to a religious boxing match with an SP let alone that and a General Penishood holder) I will be as articulate as you were.  It is posts like yours that give some of us courage to let people know that this is where I stand  --  I respect your right to practice your religion how you see fit and for me to not practice anything at all.  Merci, mon ami! 

   


Posted: 29 January 2016 02:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
leftasteen
Jr. Member
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Joined  2014-12-08
 
  
 
Sounds good. I wonder how many of these AAS's or SP's have their own doubts, and are just going through the motions per their job description in these matters. If your spouse stays TBM I would not want to be around during your tithing discussion. That could get tough. 

   


Posted: 29 January 2016 02:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
Long Timer
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Joined  2012-09-01
 
  
 
Good going WS! I know that article of faith usage sure shut down my parents when I recited it to them. 
 Signature
One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.


   


Posted: 29 January 2016 07:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Quartersawn
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Joined  2009-12-10
 
  
 
Good on you Winston. When they called me in to visit with a member of the Seventy I just said I have nothing new to add that I haven't already told my Bishop, and there is nothing new he could add that would change my mind. 
 
Yours had a better outcome, your wife now has respect for you and your decision, my ex's respect kept going down a spiral.
 
Kudos!  
 Signature
Why would you consider a man a prophet whose morals are worse than your own? Having claimed to commune with deity, be visited by angels and receive revelations, should he not be held to a higher standard? —me


   


Posted: 29 January 2016 08:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Joined  2008-08-12
 
  
 
It may be that both of those gentlemen, went on brain-tilt...not really knowing ANY of the definitions for the terms you used.
 
All they did was shake their heads.
 
They had no clue.
 
I've seen that "deer-in-headlights" set of looks with condescending nods of heads, performed by many members of the church.
 
They have teflon for brain cells and it all slides off.
 
You did very well in your side of the engagement....pity, they didn't match you.
 
They just ignored the comments...and moved on...putting a check-mark in the slot that states..."contact has been made."
 
They mail it in to higher ups, and get their brownie points in heaven...or some such.
 Signature
”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 30 January 2016 07:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Morethanmo
Long Timer
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Joined  2014-07-24
 
  
 
I LOVED reading about your interaction! It is so great that you didn't apologize and it turned out great for you and your wife!! 
 Signature
__________________________________________

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________


   


Posted: 30 January 2016 07:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Morethanmo
Long Timer
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Joined  2014-07-24
 
  
 
Morethanmo:
I LOVED reading about your interaction! It is so great that you didn't apologize and it turned out great for you and your wife!! 
 
 I mean that you weren't apologetic about your "transition". 
 Signature
__________________________________________

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________


   


Posted: 31 January 2016 10:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
Curious NeverMo
Long Timer
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Joined  2008-03-14
 
  
 
Dear Winston Smith-
 
I never come by here anymore but I'd soooo glad I did today to read your story.  I remember the anguish you've been through trying to treat your wife honorably and wishing for a time when she could return the favor.  
 
I hope -- as I'm sure you do! -- that this is the beginning of that stage of your relationship.
 
You've been valiant.  You deserve no less.  I'm so happy for you both because I know this will bring you both more happiness and a richer relationship. 


   


Posted: 01 February 2016 09:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise
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Joined  2015-12-08
 
  
 
WS, thanks for sharing! I'm impressed with how you handled the whole thing. Best wishes for continued healing in your marriage! 
 Signature
“I asked him why he had left the church. He said something about science. I don’t know, perhaps he was offended.” o_O
credit: Matter Unorganized


   


Posted: 02 February 2016 03:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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Dovolente
Sr. Member
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Joined  2008-03-06
 
  
 
Hats off!  Reading this just made my day, and it's only 6:30AM. 
 


   


Posted: 09 February 2016 09:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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MormonThink
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Well done thy good and faithless servant! 

   


Posted: 09 February 2016 10:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
peace out
Long Timer
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Joined  2010-06-02
 
  
 
WinstonSmith
I'm a little disappointed I was really hoping for the guy running out of the room screaming my whole life has been a lie. You must have had an off day.
 
 
Way Cool and Very Brave!!


   


Posted: 09 February 2016 11:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler
Long Timer
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Winston wow.  Saying that your relationship with your wife has generally reset to before you dropped the bomb on her is massive.  Do you think the visit helped her get to a deeper level of accepting you?  What do you guess has gone on internally with her?
 
Well done.  Really.  Sometimes the years of trying with a spouse do pay off!  I am sincerely happy for you.  Your post made my day.
 
btw, I loved how you handled those clowns.  Your words to them about mormonism being so one sided and non critical etc and so on the mark and reflect a new reality that I don't think these guys know they are living in.  It's not 1987 anymore, or 1997.  I mean jesuschrist it's not even 2007 anymore.  These guys are walking around and have no actual understanding of what has really happened to their Mormon world.
 Signature
Vindicated, I am selfish, I am wrong, I am right
I swear I’m right, swear I knew it all along
And I am flawed
but I am cleaning up so well
I am seeing in me now the things you swore, you saw yourself

Vindicated
Dashboard Confessionalhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8InUTSWWDVk


   


Posted: 09 February 2016 11:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
Jr. Member
RankRank
Joined  2014-04-03
 
  
 
I, too, met with my local Area Seventy. After having my initial discussion with my wife, I met with my Bishop and told him. A couple weeks later, he called to ask if the Stake President could come by. He said that he would be bringing along our Area Seventy because there would be a Stake Youth Fireside the Area Seventy would be presenting. I agreed to the meeting.
 
They came, I told them why I no longer believe. They couldn't address the points I presented so they bore their testimonies and left.
 
Two months later, during which I had only one visit from my Bishop (who is now our Home Teacher) and nothing from the Stake President, I received a letter from the Area Seventy. He still didn't address the points I presented and bore his testimony once again.
 
I wrote back, copying my Bishop and Stake President, and addressed all the points in his testimony! I asked that he address mine.
 
No response, three months after that!
 
And my Home Teacher, the Bishop, has only visited once since that initial visit back in July.
 
At least they're leaving me alone!!!! 
 Signature
Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 09 February 2016 11:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler
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I think the next time i wind up talking to one of these guys I'm just going to say, "look guys, it's over.  the church has become to transparently unredeemable and exposed as so thoroughly preposterous, that you may as well be trying to convince someone to come back and join you in the hunt for big foot"
 
yeah, I'm going with that.  
 
Screw these guys.  they are dipshits who use their authority to judge people while remaining ignorant of the very facts and information that would show to them that their authority is no greater or more special than the dude I buy my Slurpees from at 7eleven once a week.
 
but these idiots have to remain ignorant because the last thing they want to do is anything that would threaten their god given right to play dress ups in a suit and tie and go visit people and judge them.  or say incredibly outrageous things like telling a person that some dead guy who lived 2000 years ago is happy with them.  God, what would happen to their Wednesday nights?  Oh the horror!  Nobody to judge?  Nobody to talkshit about in the car after they say goodbye?  Nobody to gossip about?  Where is the fun in life when you can think you have everything figured out and the people you visit........just don't get it?
 Signature
Vindicated, I am selfish, I am wrong, I am right
I swear I’m right, swear I knew it all along
And I am flawed
but I am cleaning up so well
I am seeing in me now the things you swore, you saw yourself

Vindicated
Dashboard Confessionalhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8InUTSWWDVk


   


Posted: 09 February 2016 12:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise
Member
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Joined  2015-12-08
 
  
 
Lloyd Dobler:
I think the next time i wind up talking to one of these guys I'm just going to say, "look guys, it's over.  the church has become to transparently unredeemable and exposed as so thoroughly preposterous, that you may as well be trying to convince someone to come back and join you in the hunt for big foot"
 
yeah, I'm going with that.  
 
Screw these guys.  they are dipshits who use their authority to judge people while remaining ignorant of the very facts and information that would show to them that their authority is no greater or more special than the dude I buy my Slurpees from at 7eleven once a week.
 
but these idiots have to remain ignorant because the last thing they want to do is anything that would threaten their god given right to play dress ups in a suit and tie and go visit people and judge them.  or say incredibly outrageous things like telling a person that some dead guy who lived 2000 years ago is happy with them.  God, what would happen to their Wednesday nights?  Oh the horror!  Nobody to judge?  Nobody to talkshit about in the car after they say goodbye?  Nobody to gossip about?  Where is the fun in life when you can think you have everything figured out and the people you visit........just don't get it?
 
I give some people (especially the lower they are on the totem pole) a little more of a pass... I think the majority are operating out of fear and/or delusion. Not all, but most local leaders I've dealt with seem to truly believe in what they're doing and are afraid of (a) failing God, (b) failing those they are supposed to save, (c) burning in hell, or (d) pausing for a moment and realizing none of it's real.
 
I'm guessing that last one is bigger than some of us realize. Too much sunk cost to even consider the possibility...best to just forge blindly ahead. I'm angry with the church and some of the high-ups, but I mostly feel bad for my local leaders. I look at my 30-something bishop who had to quit his second job and forget about finishing the basement in his small house, because his time and money are now the morg's. Good man, just another victim.
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“I asked him why he had left the church. He said something about science. I don’t know, perhaps he was offended.” o_O
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Revised Articles of Faith  
Posted: 17 February 2016 12:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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I figure it's time to update the Articles of Faith to reflect the church in the 21st Century. Believe me, there were more things I wanted to add, but I decided to stay close to the current Articles of Faith.
Ahem: 
 
1. We believe that God, the Eternal Father, His Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct beings, and that if the scriptures say they are one, it's because they are one in purpose, and that when Joseph Smith translated Luke 10:23 he was speaking as a man.
 
2. We believe that for the most part, men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression, unless their parents are gay. Then they will be punished, but it's to protect them.
 
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved by obedience to the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles. Pay, pray and obey. Never mind what Jesus says, unless we endorse it. Plus, your parents can't be gay.
 
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinance of the gospel are: first, belief in Joseph Smith and the current prophet; second, a willingness to submit to the athority of the church; third, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins (unless your parents are gay); fourth, the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost (unless your parents are gay).
 
5. We believe that a man will be called depending on his relatives, connections and how well he knows the Bishop, Stake President or higher authority, or if it's an unimportant calling just any old warm body will do. But you'd better not say no to the calling.
 
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the primitive church, namely, Visiting Teaching co-ordinators, second counsellors in the Sunday School presidency, 16 year old priests, cub scout leaders, chapel booking agents and so forth. 
 
7. We believe in the gift of tithes, fast offerings, missionary fund, perpetual education fund, free work, toliet cleaning, the Holy Ghost finding keys, and so forth.
 
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God, but only those parts which support current doctrine and practices of the church. We also believe the Book of mormon to be infallible despite DNA problems, anachronisms, lack of archealogical evidence, and those nasty bits that contradict current doctrine and practices, but if there be faults, they are the faults of man.
 
9. We believe most of what the prophets have revealed, all that they do now reveal, and we believe that they will yet reveal many great and important things, but understand that they will be superseded by future prophets according to political expediency and the church's image. But it's still God's will.
 
10. We believe in the figurative gathering of Israel and maybe in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; but the prophet has the authority to change what we believe but we really don't know and none of it is pertinent to your salvation anyway. 
 
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God and Joseph Smith according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, unless they have the audacity to exercise that privilege in leaving the church, in which case they are evil apostates and we will disown, shun, disavow, disdain and disapprove of them in whatever way we choose.
 
12. We believe in being subject to apostles, prophets, stake presidents, bishops and elders quorum presidents, and we will only obey, honor, and sustain only those parts of man's law that the church says it's OK to obey. But we'll publicly state that we are in favor of these laws, even if we aren't. And if you are a woman, you are subject to the whims of men at all times.
 
13. We believe in being dishonest, deceitful, two-faced, malevolent, unethical, and in taking advantage of all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Joseph Smith — We believe all things are ours, especially under-aged girls and other men's wives, we hope we can get away with it, we have endured many non faith-promoting truths, and hope to be able to endure all truths as the internet sheds more light on the soft, white and delightsome underbelly of the church. If there is anything profitable, spiteful, or of apocryphal origin or hateful of minorities (especially gays and their children), we seek after these things.
 
 
Now...  it's your turn! What revisions, additions or subtractions would you make?
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Posted: 17 February 2016 12:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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Very good MU!  
 Signature
I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 17 February 2016 12:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
Long Timer
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I would just Carbon Copy it to the Wentworth's for review and let them make any revisions first. It seems fair to me to let the original recipient kinfolk have first crack at it. lol
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Posted: 17 February 2016 12:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
Hank
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 Wouldn't change a thing! And it's oh, so accurate! 

   


Posted: 17 February 2016 09:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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dave (e_nomo)
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Instant classic!  Well done, MU    
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As Neo reaches for the red pill Morpheus warns Neo
“Remember, all I’m offering is the truth. Nothing more.”


   


Posted: 18 February 2016 03:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Dovolente
Sr. Member
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  A very fun read, thanks!  You nailed it!  


   


Posted: 18 February 2016 05:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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 Oh my! ! That's wonderful! I don't have anything to add, not one jot nor tittle (or whatever the hell that word is) to this inspired Restored Articles of Faith. 
 
 (Unless your parents are gay. )  


   


Posted: 18 February 2016 06:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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Joined  2014-07-23
 
  
 
MU, how I would like to see that on facebook for all the morgbots to see.  I would even put it under my name(actually that is what my evil twin would really enjoy doing).  This was an awesome read.  I really enjoy things that can be altered to really show the truth because as you know  --  the truth will set you free and that is and will always be .......  PRICELESS! 

   


Posted: 18 February 2016 10:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise
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Love it! 
 Signature
“I asked him why he had left the church. He said something about science. I don’t know, perhaps he was offended.” o_O
credit: Matter Unorganized


   


Posted: 18 February 2016 11:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Aleut
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dave (e_nomo):
Instant classic!  Well done, MU    
^^^Ditto. 
 
ROFLMAO    
 Signature
“I’m having the best day of my life, and I owe it all to not going to Church!”—Homer Simpson, The Simpsons
“I don’t object to the concept of a deity, but I’m baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.”—Amy Farrah Fowler, The Big Bang Theory
“For the record, I do have genitals. They’re functional and aesthetically pleasing.”—Sheldon Cooper, The Big Bang Theory
All comments, statements, opinions, suggestions, and information expressed, or quotes cited, represent the exclusive viewpoint of Aleut at that point in time and are NOT meant to compel or represent agreement by the reader. Aleut will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use.


   


Posted: 18 February 2016 11:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler
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Aleut:
dave (e_nomo):
Instant classic!  Well done, MU    
^^^Ditto. 
 
ROFLMAO    
 MU is in top form. Hey Aleut!
 
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Dashboard Confessionalhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8InUTSWWDVk


   


Posted: 18 February 2016 12:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Aleut
Long Timer
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Joined  2009-04-17
 
  
 
Lloyd Dobler:
Aleut:
dave (e_nomo):
Instant classic!  Well done, MU    
^^^Ditto. 
 
ROFLMAO    
 MU is in top form. Hey Aleut!
 
Hey Lloyd.  I don't log in to PostMo very often, but I do a cursory glance at the forum topics a couple of times a week.  After reading MU's revised articles of faith, I had to log on and honor his brilliance.
 
 Signature
“I’m having the best day of my life, and I owe it all to not going to Church!”—Homer Simpson, The Simpsons
“I don’t object to the concept of a deity, but I’m baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance.”—Amy Farrah Fowler, The Big Bang Theory
“For the record, I do have genitals. They’re functional and aesthetically pleasing.”—Sheldon Cooper, The Big Bang Theory
All comments, statements, opinions, suggestions, and information expressed, or quotes cited, represent the exclusive viewpoint of Aleut at that point in time and are NOT meant to compel or represent agreement by the reader. Aleut will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use.


   


Posted: 18 February 2016 01:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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Dang, both Lloyd Dobler and Aleut in the house today? It's a sign! Postmo is true!
 Signature
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 19 February 2016 06:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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guywithearrings50
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Joined  2012-06-13
 
  
 
Awesome. Love it. 
 
too bad you couldn't hack into LDS.org and swap these out for the ones already there, and see how long until someone notices... 


   


Posted: 19 February 2016 08:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
Avatar
WinstonSmith
Long Timer
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Joined  2011-09-26
 
  
 
Matter Unorganized:
I figure it's time to update the Articles of Faith to reflect the church in the 21st Century. Believe me, there were more things I wanted to add, but I decided to stay close to the current Articles of Faith.
Ahem: 
 
1. We believe that God, the Eternal Father, His Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct beings, and that if the scriptures say they are one, it's because they are one in purpose, and that when Joseph Smith translated Luke 10:23 he was speaking as a man.
 
2. We believe that for the most part, men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression, unless their parents are gay. Then they will be punished, but it's to protect them. Women are punished for Eve's transgression.
 
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved by obedience to the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles. Pay, pray and obey. Never mind what Jesus says, unless we endorse it. Plus, your parents can't be gay.
 
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinance of the gospel are: first, belief in Joseph Smith and the current prophet; second, a willingness to submit to the athority of the church; third, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins (unless your parents are gay); fourth, the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost (unless your parents are gay).
 
5. We believe that a man will be called depending on his relatives, connections and how well he knows the Bishop, Stake President or higher authority, or if it's an unimportant calling just any old warm body will do. But you'd better not say no to the calling.
 
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the primitive church, namely, Visiting Teaching co-ordinators, second counsellors in the Sunday School presidency, 16 year old priests, cub scout leaders, chapel booking agents and so forth. 
 
7. We believe in the gift of tithes, fast offerings, missionary fund, perpetual education fund, free work, toliet cleaning, the Holy Ghost finding keys, and so forth.
 
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God, but only those parts which support current doctrine and practices of the church. We also believe the Book of mormon to be infallible despite DNA problems, anachronisms, lack of archealogical evidence, and those nasty bits that contradict current doctrine and practices, but if there be faults, they are the faults of man.
 
9. We believe most of what the prophets have revealed, all that they do now reveal, and we believe that they will yet reveal many great and important things, but understand that they will be superseded by future prophets according to political expediency and the church's image. But it's still God's will.
 
10. We believe in the figurative gathering of Israel and maybe in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; but the prophet has the authority to change what we believe but we really don't know and none of it is pertinent to your salvation anyway. 
 
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God and Joseph Smith according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, unless they have the audacity to exercise that privilege in leaving the church, in which case they are evil apostates and we will shame, demonize, disown, shun, disavow, disdain and disapprove of them in whatever way we choose.
 
12. We believe in being subject to apostles, prophets, stake presidents, bishops and elders quorum presidents, and we will only obey, honor, and sustain only those parts of man's law that the church says it's OK to obey. But we'll publicly state that we are in favor of these laws, even if we aren't. And if you are a woman, you are subject to the whims of men at all times.
 
13. We believe in being dishonest, deceitful, two-faced, malevolent, unethical, and in taking advantage of all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Joseph Smith — We believe all things are ours, especially under-aged girls and other men's wives, we hope we can get away with it, we have endured many non faith-promoting truths, and hope to be able to endure all truths as the internet sheds more light on the soft, white and delightsome underbelly of the church. If there is anything profitable, spiteful, or of apocryphal origin or hateful of minorities (especially gays and their children), we seek after these things.
 
 
Now...  it's your turn! What revisions, additions or subtractions would you make?
 
 Absolutely Awesome!!! Note my slight revisions.
 
How about adding a 14th Article of Faith:
 
14. We believe in doubting doubts before doubting faith, unless Mormon missionaries are teaching non-mormons, then we believe in doubting faith before doubting doubts.
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“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


Posted: 19 February 2016 09:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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That's the spirit, Winston! I love the revisions, and I'll even accept a 14th article of faith, because there were originally 14 of 'em. True story! Read about it here.
 Signature
You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 19 February 2016 11:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise
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Joined  2015-12-08
 
  
 
Matter Unorganized:
That's the spirit, Winston! I love the revisions, and I'll even accept a 14th article of faith, because there were originally 14 of 'em. True story! Read about it here.
 
 Holy sh*t! Is this for real? I find the changes to #8 very interesting--big change of emphasis. Also the fact that we no longer believe in being temperate (#14, now #13).
 Signature
“I asked him why he had left the church. He said something about science. I don’t know, perhaps he was offended.” o_O
credit: Matter Unorganized


   


Posted: 19 February 2016 01:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Celestial Wedgie
Long Timer
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Joined  2010-10-03
 
  
 
guywithearrings:
Awesome. Love it. 
 
too bad you couldn't hack into LDS.org and swap these out for the ones already there, and see how long until someone notices... 
 
That would be so sweet.  


   


Posted: 19 February 2016 02:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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Troubled Wife
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You can't be baptized if your parents practiced polygamy, even if you disavow that behavior.... 
 
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You were not born with an expiration date stamped anywhere. Live life. Enjoy it. Don’t believe a doctor who tells you that you’ve only got a limited amount of time to live.


   


Posted: 19 February 2016 02:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
Avatar
LostInParadise
Member
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Joined  2015-12-08
 
  
 
Troubled Wife:
You can't be baptized if your parents practiced polygamy, even if you disavow that behavior.... 
 
 
I've never heard this before. Do you have a link to source info on it? I'd like to read about it.
 Signature
“I asked him why he had left the church. He said something about science. I don’t know, perhaps he was offended.” o_O
credit: Matter Unorganized


   


Posted: 19 February 2016 03:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
moronie-balonie
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Joined  2013-01-09
 
  
 
  Verrrry funny!  I was also thinking about the "women will be punished for Eve's sin", but I see that WS already suggested it.  #9 and #11 really made me laugh.  Good work.  

   


Posted: 19 February 2016 05:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
Avatar
Matter Unorganized
Long Timer
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Joined  2011-01-22
 
  
 
LostInParadise:
Troubled Wife:
You can't be baptized if your parents practiced polygamy, even if you disavow that behavior.... 
 
 
I've never heard this before. Do you have a link to source info on it? I'd like to read about it.
 
The church is constantly moving the goalposts. It turns out that you can be baptized if your parents practice(d) polygamy, but there are conditions.
 
I have found online copies of the 2006 and 2010 Handbook of Instructions. They differ significantly. Note - these are from Handbook 1, which is NOT available on lds.org, and they are for bishops and stake presidents only.

This link will take you to the full 2006 handbook of instructions. It's too big to post as an attachment. The section on "Children whose parents have practiced or are practicing plural marriige" is on page 34 of the handbook (page 47 within the entire document). It reads:
 
    Children of parents who have practiced or are practicing plural marriage must receive approval from the First Presidency to be baptized. The mission president or bishop may request this approval when he is satisfied that the children (1) accept the teachings and doctrines of the church and (2) repudiate the teachings upon which their parents based their practice of plural marriage. The mission president submits the request through a member of the Presidency of the Seventy or the Area Presidency. The bishop submits the request through the stake president.
 
It is very clear that the rules about children of polygamous couples are NOT the same as same sex couples.
 
This is different from the 2010 Handbook of Instructions online - click on this link. The section on children of plural marriage (found on page 145) is a bit different:
 
Children Whose Parents Have Practiced or Are Practicing Plural Marriage
 
    Children of parents who have practiced or are practicing plural marriage contrary to the law must receive approval from the First Presidency before they may be baptized and confirmed. The mission president may request this approval from the office of the First Presidency when he is satisfied that all three of the following requirements are met:
 
The children accept the teachings and doctrines of the church.
The children repudiate the teachings upon which their parents based their practice of plural marriage.
Minor children are not living in a home where polygamy is being taught or practiced. 
 
So there you have it. What I find interesting is the statement in the first paragraph which only disallows baptism if the parents are practicing plural marriage contrary to the law. So if plural marriage is legal in a certain country, then there is no restriction on children being baptized.
 
Reading these excerpts, it is TOTALLY disingenuous of the church to draw parallels between children of plural marriage and children of same-gender parents.
 
NOTE: I dont' know if there is a more current version of the handbook. These were what I could find online. It is entirely possible that there is a newer version in which the mormon god changed his mind yet again.
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Posted: 20 February 2016 08:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise:
Troubled Wife:
You can't be baptized if your parents practiced polygamy, even if you disavow that behavior.... 
 
 
I've never heard this before. Do you have a link to source info on it? I'd like to read about it.
 
The church is constantly moving the goalposts. It turns out that you can be baptized if your parents practice(d) polygamy, but there are conditions.
 
I have found online copies of the 2006 and 2010 Handbook of Instructions. They differ significantly. Note - these are from Handbook 1, which is NOT available on lds.org, and they are for bishops and stake presidents only.

This link will take you to the full 2006 handbook of instructions. It's too big to post as an attachment. The section on "Children whose parents have practiced or are practicing plural marriige" is on page 34 of the handbook (page 47 within the entire document). It reads:
 
    Children of parents who have practiced or are practicing plural marriage must receive approval from the First Presidency to be baptized. The mission president or bishop may request this approval when he is satisfied that the children (1) accept the teachings and doctrines of the church and (2) repudiate the teachings upon which their parents based their practice of plural marriage. The mission president submits the request through a member of the Presidency of the Seventy or the Area Presidency. The bishop submits the request through the stake president.
 
It is very clear that the rules about children of polygamous couples are NOT the same as same sex couples.
 
This is different from the 2010 Handbook of Instructions online - click on this link. The section on children of plural marriage (found on page 145) is a bit different:
 
Children Whose Parents Have Practiced or Are Practicing Plural Marriage
 
    Children of parents who have practiced or are practicing plural marriage contrary to the law must receive approval from the First Presidency before they may be baptized and confirmed. The mission president may request this approval from the office of the First Presidency when he is satisfied that all three of the following requirements are met:
 
The children accept the teachings and doctrines of the church.
The children repudiate the teachings upon which their parents based their practice of plural marriage.
Minor children are not living in a home where polygamy is being taught or practiced. 
 
So there you have it. What I find interesting is the statement in the first paragraph which only disallows baptism if the parents are practicing plural marriage contrary to the law. So if plural marriage is legal in a certain country, then there is no restriction on children being baptized.
 
Reading these excerpts, it is TOTALLY disingenuous of the church to draw parallels between children of plural marriage and children of same-gender parents.
 
NOTE: I dont' know if there is a more current version of the handbook. These were what I could find online. It is entirely possible that there is a newer version in which the mormon god changed his mind yet again.
  Thank you MU, for finding it.  I previously found a link in another place, printed it for my husband, and now can't find that link...  HMMMM...
BUT, it just happened to Maddie Brown, daughter of the famous polygamous family, the Browns  (Janelle and Kody's oldest daughter). She was denied being baptized into the "traditional church" because of her public affiliation, though she denounced polygamy, with her polygamous parents. (Oct. 12, 2015)
Funny thing about that, to me, is that since the 'traditional church' denied Maddie baptism because of her public interaction with her openly polygamous family (something which she will not be practicing), Maddie and her fiance seem to be busy going against ALL Mormonism!!!!!
 
The more negative light the church gets, no matter how it comes about, IMO is great!
 
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Posted: 20 February 2016 10:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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Sorry MU, I just can't help but propose these two additions:
 
15. We believe that racism taught from BY to SWK was prophets speaking as men, however racism taught by society was teaching "the philosophies of men mingled with scripture".
 
16. We believe "if we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to to be" sanitized, revised, correlated and hidden from the members and investigators of the Church.
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A New Reformation  
Posted: 16 February 2016 01:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints needs to be reformed, just like the Roman Catholic Church needed to be reformed.  No one knows who the new Martin Luther will be or when the new reformation will happen, but happen it must!  
 
The chief causes of the Protestant Reformation were the sale of indulgences and the moral corruption of the clergy.  Catholics were promised salvation, forgiveness of sins, or mitigation of time in Purgatory in exchange for money.  This applied to the dead as well as the living (any of this sound familiar?).  The bigger the "donation", the higher the seat in heaven.  Whenever the Pope needed a new building of splendor to show off to the world, such as St. Peters Basilica, the promotion campaign was intensified accordingly.  The greed, deception, and moral corruption of the clergy grew intolerable.  The advent of the printing press (the Internet of that time) was the deciding factor in the disclosure of ecclesiastical abuses.
 
As we fast-forward to our time, we see the need for the "deadwood" of theological error to be culled out.  The whole temple thing, along with the scriptures per Joseph Smith, must go.  When a church extorts money from parents in order for them to be allowed to attend the marriage of a son or daughter in the house that has "Holiness to the Lord" etched beside the entrance, that church is no less wicked than the church that sold indulgences.
 
After one has researched the TRUE history of the church and then examines the Ten Commandments and the Articles of Faith against the behavior and theology of Joseph Smith, he is in for some startling comparisons.  It can easily be seen that he violated the spirit, if not the letter, of numbers 3, 7-10 of the Ten Commandments, and numbers 2, 11-13 of his own Articles of Faith!  Never in the history of mankind has a mixture of truth with error been more cunningly brewed and served up as a "Kool-Aid" of deceit!


   


Posted: 16 February 2016 03:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Denker:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints needs to be reformed, just like the Roman Catholic Church needed to be reformed.  No one knows who the new Martin Luther will be or when the new reformation will happen, but happen it must!  
 
The chief causes of the Protestant Reformation were the sale of indulgences and the moral corruption of the clergy.  Catholics were promised salvation, forgiveness of sins, or mitigation of time in Purgatory in exchange for money.  This applied to the dead as well as the living (any of this sound familiar?).  The bigger the "donation", the higher the seat in heaven.  Whenever the Pope needed a new building of splendor to show off to the world, such as St. Peters Basilica, the promotion campaign was intensified accordingly.  The greed, deception, and moral corruption of the clergy grew intolerable.  The advent of the printing press (the Internet of that time) was the deciding factor in the disclosure of ecclesiastical abuses.
 
As we fast-forward to our time, we see the need for the "deadwood" of theological error to be culled out.  The whole temple thing, along with the scriptures per Joseph Smith, must go.  When a church extorts money from parents in order for them to be allowed to attend the marriage of a son or daughter in the house that has "Holiness to the Lord" etched beside the entrance, that church is no less wicked than the church that sold indulgences.
 
After one has researched the TRUE history of the church and then examines the Ten Commandments and the Articles of Faith against the behavior and theology of Joseph Smith, he is in for some startling comparisons.  It can easily be seen that he violated the spirit, if not the letter, of numbers 3, 7-10 of the Ten Commandments, and numbers 2, 11-13 of his own Articles of Faith!  Never in the history of mankind has a mixture of truth with error been more cunningly brewed and served up as a "Kool-Aid" of deceit!
 
 The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints meeds to go out of business. 
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Posted: 16 February 2016 04:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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The only thing that I could even begin to contemplate accepting, in terms of the church changing, would be if they threw out everything having to do with religion, in any form, and replaced all that crap with the Rules of Golf, as accepted by the USGA and the R&A Golf Association.
 
I've drawn my own personal line in the sand (trap)! 
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Posted: 16 February 2016 09:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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I love this post...they are indeed due for a reformation. The same 95 thesis should be posted in the town square--or in this case, an online public church-owned place where they cannot be ignored. It would somehow have to be on Deseret News or LDS.org, but is something like that even possible?
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Posted: 17 February 2016 05:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Someone tried this a few years ago. Maybe it's time to give it another go.
 
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/37867/ 
 
Unfortunately, stuff like this plays into the mormon persecution complex, and the believers rally the troops, circle the wagons and double down on their devotion whenever they see stuff like this.
 
However, if it affects a few thinking individuals here and there, it's a start.
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Posted: 17 February 2016 08:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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In_Correct:
Denker:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints needs to be reformed, just like the Roman Catholic Church needed to be reformed.  No one knows who the new Martin Luther will be or when the new reformation will happen, but happen it must!  
 
The chief causes of the Protestant Reformation were the sale of indulgences and the moral corruption of the clergy.  Catholics were promised salvation, forgiveness of sins, or mitigation of time in Purgatory in exchange for money.  This applied to the dead as well as the living (any of this sound familiar?).  The bigger the "donation", the higher the seat in heaven.  Whenever the Pope needed a new building of splendor to show off to the world, such as St. Peters Basilica, the promotion campaign was intensified accordingly.  The greed, deception, and moral corruption of the clergy grew intolerable.  The advent of the printing press (the Internet of that time) was the deciding factor in the disclosure of ecclesiastical abuses.
 
As we fast-forward to our time, we see the need for the "deadwood" of theological error to be culled out.  The whole temple thing, along with the scriptures per Joseph Smith, must go.  When a church extorts money from parents in order for them to be allowed to attend the marriage of a son or daughter in the house that has "Holiness to the Lord" etched beside the entrance, that church is no less wicked than the church that sold indulgences.
 
After one has researched the TRUE history of the church and then examines the Ten Commandments and the Articles of Faith against the behavior and theology of Joseph Smith, he is in for some startling comparisons.  It can easily be seen that he violated the spirit, if not the letter, of numbers 3, 7-10 of the Ten Commandments, and numbers 2, 11-13 of his own Articles of Faith!  Never in the history of mankind has a mixture of truth with error been more cunningly brewed and served up as a "Kool-Aid" of deceit!
 
 The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints meeds to go out of business. 
 
 If everything associated with Joseph Smith were removed from the equation, I think there's a possibility we could have a genuine Church of Jesus Christ, but at any rate it would be far different than the cult we now have.


   


Posted: 18 February 2016 09:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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The LDS Relegion is going to change. Starfleet is there to help...
 
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Posted: 18 February 2016 12:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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In_Correct:
Denker:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints needs to be reformed, just like the Roman Catholic Church needed to be reformed.  No one knows who the new Martin Luther will be or when the new reformation will happen, but happen it must!  
 
The chief causes of the Protestant Reformation were the sale of indulgences and the moral corruption of the clergy.  Catholics were promised salvation, forgiveness of sins, or mitigation of time in Purgatory in exchange for money.  This applied to the dead as well as the living (any of this sound familiar?).  The bigger the "donation", the higher the seat in heaven.  Whenever the Pope needed a new building of splendor to show off to the world, such as St. Peters Basilica, the promotion campaign was intensified accordingly.  The greed, deception, and moral corruption of the clergy grew intolerable.  The advent of the printing press (the Internet of that time) was the deciding factor in the disclosure of ecclesiastical abuses.
 
As we fast-forward to our time, we see the need for the "deadwood" of theological error to be culled out.  The whole temple thing, along with the scriptures per Joseph Smith, must go.  When a church extorts money from parents in order for them to be allowed to attend the marriage of a son or daughter in the house that has "Holiness to the Lord" etched beside the entrance, that church is no less wicked than the church that sold indulgences.
 
After one has researched the TRUE history of the church and then examines the Ten Commandments and the Articles of Faith against the behavior and theology of Joseph Smith, he is in for some startling comparisons.  It can easily be seen that he violated the spirit, if not the letter, of numbers 3, 7-10 of the Ten Commandments, and numbers 2, 11-13 of his own Articles of Faith!  Never in the history of mankind has a mixture of truth with error been more cunningly brewed and served up as a "Kool-Aid" of deceit!
 
 The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints meeds to go out of business. 
 Denker, I'm liking your style on this however, IC is right.  the church needs to go out of business.......and since they have a boat load of dough, that's never going to happen.  I would love reform but it's never going to happen.
 
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At least someone high up is going after “QUACK CURES FOR HOMOSEXUALITY!!”  
Posted: 06 February 2016 11:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Posted: 06 February 2016 11:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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I hope they go after the mormon church's aversion program. I think it's called Evergreen. I talked to someone who said he has scars on his genitals from the electroshock "therapy." And he's still gay. And no longer mormon. And happy. 

   


Posted: 07 February 2016 09:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Winyan:
I hope they go after the mormon church's aversion program. I think it's called Evergreen. I talked to someone who said he has scars on his genitals from the electroshock "therapy." And he's still gay. And no longer mormon. And happy.
 
 I wish for this as well. Although I am hetero and only dream about being lesbian like most red blooded males find this ectrocution abuse to be overwhelmingly disgusting. Pondering the legal landscape I wonder how protective the releases and authorization forms are that must have been signed by the victims that were amped up by the lds church? Thinking this through it seems plausible that such a lawsuit could grow teeth and take a bite out of the corporation. With a win against this organized corporate debauchery it may open up a way to fight the "DONATION" slip for tithes offerings and other whitewashed do good gifting fraud. 
 
Shut down lds-inc.!
 
I want my money back! 
 
EDITED to add this link:
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/mormon-gay-cures-reparative-therapies-shock-today/story?id=13240700 
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Posted: 07 February 2016 12:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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FreeLive:
Winyan:
I hope they go after the mormon church's aversion program. I think it's called Evergreen. I talked to someone who said he has scars on his genitals from the electroshock "therapy." And he's still gay. And no longer mormon. And happy.
 
 I wish for this as well. Although I am hetero and only dream about being lesbian like most red blooded males find this ectrocution abuse to be overwhelmingly disgusting. Pondering the legal landscape I wonder how protective the releases and authorization forms are that must have been signed by the victims that were amped up by the lds church? Thinking this through it seems plausible that such a lawsuit could grow teeth and take a bite out of the corporation. With a win against this organized corporate debauchery it may open up a way to fight the "DONATION" slip for tithes offerings and other whitewashed do good gifting fraud. 
 
Shut down lds-inc.!
 
I want my money back! 
 
EDITED to add this link:
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/mormon-gay-cures-reparative-therapies-shock-today/story?id=13240700 
 
 I don't know how much of this article is true or false, but that website is a pseudo-news site that makes stuff up on a regular basis. It's sure to contain plenty of BS like any tabloid.
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Posted: 07 February 2016 08:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise:
FreeLive:
Winyan:
I hope they go after the mormon church's aversion program. I think it's called Evergreen. I talked to someone who said he has scars on his genitals from the electroshock "therapy." And he's still gay. And no longer mormon. And happy.
 
 I wish for this as well. Although I am hetero and only dream about being lesbian like most red blooded males find this ectrocution abuse to be overwhelmingly disgusting. Pondering the legal landscape I wonder how protective the releases and authorization forms are that must have been signed by the victims that were amped up by the lds church? Thinking this through it seems plausible that such a lawsuit could grow teeth and take a bite out of the corporation. With a win against this organized corporate debauchery it may open up a way to fight the "DONATION" slip for tithes offerings and other whitewashed do good gifting fraud. 
 
Shut down lds-inc.!
 
I want my money back! 
 
EDITED to add this link:
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/mormon-gay-cures-reparative-therapies-shock-today/story?id=13240700 
 
 I don't know how much of this article is true or false, but that website is a pseudo-news site that makes stuff up on a regular basis. It's sure to contain plenty of BS like any tabloid.
 
 Luckily, I do not have any personal experience with any aversion therapy. From the blogs and comments and articles I have read in forums and websites this article seemed to be inline with what I had read on the topic. To me the BS meter may be in that the evergreen position here was to distance themselves from extreme groups ie: mormons shocking people. It did appear to show what was done with examples and time frames. Either way thanks for the heads up on the website.
 
How about this link then?  http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,151733 
 
 I was booted off of a mormon dating site a couple years ago. One of their charges against me was that I posted links from Huffington Post. lol The site had no stated rules against posting links from Huffington Post. Anyway, that was a sidebar because they got rid of me for talking about and posting facts of lds history. It was wierd being called a wolf in sheeps clothing and such. The few thank you's that were sent to me by a few people were reassuring that people want to know as much as they can. 
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My exit story  
Posted: 25 January 2016 09:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
formormon
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Hi, I'm Hyrum Jones, just posted my exit story, see link.
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/pomopedia/Creative_Block/
 
Thanks everyone for your exit stories. They helped me during my transition period! 


   


Posted: 26 January 2016 03:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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formormon:
Hi, I'm Hyrum Jones, just posted my exit story, see link.
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/pomopedia/Creative_Block/
 
Thanks everyone for your exit stories. They helped me during my transition period! 
 
Hello formormon,
Try and remember that later on you may see things in more light a tiny bit better and as much more of a gradual learning process.
 
Know this is only your view from where you might be, right now.
 
 "My deconversion experience is similar to others. I took the first step by considering the possibility that christianity (little c) was all BS. After taking that leap of faith, everything else just fell into place. I suppose my experience came in a little bit different order. Here's what I discovered, in chronological order: There was no Jesus, the Book of Mormon was not translated from ancient writings. Joseph Smith was a conman."
 
Have you considered much of the reason you can and write freely? It's not Muhammad, its Jesus, you know?
  
 
 
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Posted: 26 January 2016 05:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
formormon
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Hey Doggonit, I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean about Muhammad and Jesus? Thanks for the reply... 

   


Posted: 26 January 2016 06:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Nice. Reading the collected exit stories really helped in my departure as well. And I liked the blog post and the lists you put together. Thanks for posting!
 
 
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Posted: 26 January 2016 07:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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formormon:
Hey Doggonit, I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean about Muhammad and Jesus? Thanks for the reply...
 
I can easily imagine that very well could be. Ever visited good websites like this one?
 
http://www.4mormon.org/
 
 
 
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Posted: 26 January 2016 01:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
formormon
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Sorry, but religion bores me. 

   


Posted: 26 January 2016 01:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Doggonit:
  
Have you considered much of the reason you can and write freely? It's not Muhammad, its Jesus, you know? 
 
Know this is only your view from where you might be, right now. 
 
Thanks for sharing your experience and thoughts, Formormon.  I'm also of the opinion that life is too complex to oversimplify in the way many religions seem inclined to do.


   


Posted: 26 January 2016 04:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
formormon
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I think the powers that be love religion, hence the tax free status. The oversimplified explanation of the world helps people to have a good versus evil mentality and of course, everyone is on the good side. 

   


Posted: 26 January 2016 09:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Your literary talent and your reasoning ability are serving you well, Hyrum.  Having just overcharged one of my billionaire insurance company clients, I threw caution to the wind and purchased your book.  
 
Had you cow-towed to the proselytizing fellow exmo I might have postponed it for awhile, to both our detrimental.  But you didn't.  
 
Give polite, get polite, says I...
 
Now to figure out to get you to personally autograph my kindle android copy of your book...  
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Posted: 27 January 2016 06:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
formormon
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You really like living dangerously Elder OldDog! Thanks for your dangerous lifestyle and I hope it satisfies you. I like to be polite, and I understand TBM's motivation to save our poor souls. Give polite, get polite...I think you copied Jesus:) 

   


Posted: 27 January 2016 01:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Hey, Hyrum, thanks for posting. I just finished reading your exit story. Well done! Glad to have you here with us. 

   


Posted: 27 January 2016 05:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
formormon
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Thanks. A few years ago, I think I read every exit story. Is the list currently being updated? The site let me write my own story, but it's not listed yet. Will it be? 

   


Posted: 27 January 2016 09:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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formormon:
Thanks. A few years ago, I think I read every exit story. Is the list currently being updated? The site let me write my own story, but it's not listed yet. Will it be?
 
I've never created an exit story, 'cuz just in case the church is true, I don't want to sit across from ghawd, watching him looking down at a piece of paper, watching his eyes go back and forth, reading the lines written there, and then have him lay the paper down, then look up at me...
 
"Uh, Elder Olddog, I find the 'exit story' you posted on PostMormon.org to be highly offense as a general statement, and equally highly offense as a specific indictment of me, your heavenly father!  Do you have any final words before I pass judgment on you?"
 
 
I'm sure you can see how awkward I'd feel at that point!!!
 
But returning to the subject:  if you haven't seen them, follow the instructions found on this page:
 
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/pomopedia/How_to_Create_an_Exit_Story/" title="How_to_Create_an_Exit_Story</a>  </p> <p>   </p> <p> That is, if my cautionary tale has not deterred you...  (he said,mischievously<font face=\"Roboto Slab, Times New Roman, serif" color="rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.870588235294118)">.)
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Posted: 28 January 2016 03:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
formormon
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So I updated my exit story with some details about taking my name off the records. Updated material pasted below for convenience: So while writing my book, I thought of some possible ramifications. A possible circumstance that came to mind was that a church member would read my book and decide to tell the bishop that a character had an unfavorable opinion of the church (not my opinion of course). Then the bishop would call me to repentance and threaten to excommunicate me. Since leaving the church, I had not yet bothered to take my name off the records. I didn't really care and didn't want to go to all the trouble of writing letters and talking to the bishop. The thought of getting excommunicated made me kind of mad actually. If that happened, it might look like I was forced out and didn't make the choice myself. Due to that, I decided to get my name taken off the records. In hindsight, the decision to remove my name was a great one. It felt amazing to take one less official mormon off the planet. 

   


Posted: 08 February 2016 09:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
formormon
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I have a Goodreads print version giveaway for my book, with 20 winners to be picked end of March...you must have a Goodreads account in order to enter... https://www.goodreads.com/giveaway/show/173040-silent-subversion-i FYI 

   


            
 
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The “policy” on children of gay parents  
Posted: 03 February 2016 02:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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I had some free time this afternoon, and photoshop, and well.... Behold, the fruits of my labor!
 
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Posted: 03 February 2016 02:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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LOL.  Nice photoshop!
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Posted: 03 February 2016 08:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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I love it! 
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“I asked him why he had left the church. He said something about science. I don’t know, perhaps he was offended.” o_O
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Posted: 03 February 2016 08:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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That is amazing...and the truth shall set you free!!!
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 04 February 2016 05:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Tessa:
That is amazing...and the truth shall set you free!!!
 
Yeah... Free from mormonism!
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Posted: 04 February 2016 08:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
antipsicótica
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LOL.  I want to post this in my Facebook, but I am still in the closet. 
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Posted: 04 February 2016 09:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Tessa:
That is amazing...and the truth shall set you free!!!
My experience with this is just slightly different: "And the truth shall make you laugh!"
 
Thanks, MU, for the incisive, clever, point-making work.


   


Posted: 04 February 2016 11:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
CorbinBrodie
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haha..nice work!
 
 
 
The Church is so squirmy in everything it does...but in its effort to simultaneously be kewl with wider social acceptance of gay people on the one hand, for public relations reasons, while on the other hand preserving its bigotry as much as it can, it has scaled new heights of squirminess and cognitive dissonance.


   


            
 
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Posted: 03 February 2016 08:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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A few days ago i posted a blog and shared it here with a little post about an exchange i had with a friend from work. He is very TBM and always willing to try to share his thoughts about how great the Church is and that even if you have left the Church, you can still talk to a person who is not LDS but a historian who will change your mind and give you things to think about before you make the final step of resigning your membership.  I have to laugh at that. A non LDS person who he says is Anti Church is going to help you stay in the Church. WOW
 
So, i have read a few other posts he has commented on and I finally had enough and stated with the BoM scriptures he shared my opinion.
 
ALMA 30: 7-11 
 
7 Now there was no law against a man's belief; for it was strictly contrary to the commands of God that there should be a law which should bring men on to unequal grounds.
 
Do you even understand that you are constantly trying to push the Church on people who still believe in God, but not the Church. It says here, that there is no equal ground on spiritual beliefs, you can believe how you want. 
 
8 For thus saith the scripture: Choose ye this day, whom ye will serve.
 
I do not believe in the Church Organization. I still believe in God. Does that make a bad person? Why are members of the Church so quick to judge and hate a person leaving, but are ok with a Jew who follows his beliefs? 
 
9 Now if a man desired to serve God, it was his privilege; or rather, if he believed in God it was his privilege to serve him; but if he did not believe in him there was no law to punish him.
 
The Church ruins lives by fear. Its a form of emotional and spiritual punishment. Its always the UNLESS you do this type of thing when it comes to Church discipline or vague/vailed threats against you, family and your eternal life.  
 
10 But if he murdered he was punished unto death; and if he robbed he was also punished; and if he stole he was also punished; and if he committed adultery he was also punished; yea, for all this wickedness they were punished.
 
The Church will allow murderers, pedophiles, rapists to be forgiven, but no way if you are Gay, Bi or no longer a member. Unless you denounce those things in your life. 
 
11 For there was a law that men should be judged according to their crimes. Nevertheless, there was no law against a man's belief; therefore, a man was punished only for the crimes which he had done; therefore all men were on equal grounds.

 
I have not committed any serious crime. I will not be punished for leaving the Church. I have not left God.
 
 
 
* I have not heard back yet. So we will see. * I am assuming what will come, but i will wait to see. 


   


Posted: 03 February 2016 08:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Whenever someone tries to "convince" me using the BoM, I stop them in their tracks and tell them that the BoM is fiction and I do not believe anything in it, and if they're trying to prove a point, they'll have to use something else or I'm not listening. (Of course, that plays into the whole "hardened heart" narrative...)
 
The problem is, as mormons we were taught that the BoM is TRUE and that just by reading it everything will be better. It says right in the introduction to the book that it's for the convincing of the Jew and the Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, etc.... It's a tough mindset to get around. The belief is that the book is a panacea for every and all situations, that by using the book to back up your point, the listener will magically be convinced not only of the point being made, but of the truthfulness of the whole damn book. This gets preached from the pulpit on a regular basis.
 
The BoM is the church's version of snake oil.
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Posted: 03 February 2016 08:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Yeah, i have that same thought. I tried to show him that his "shared scriptures" actually helped the case of people who left the Church.  But as he said, it was for the people who don't believe in God or anything spiritual. 
 
Missionaries are the best trained Snake Oil salesman. Start em Young. 


   


Posted: 03 February 2016 08:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Guess Spaulding knew better than to try and cram religion down people's throats...pity poor old Joe Smith (and Sydney Rigdon, who stole the book from the Spaulding's publisher) didn't even read the thing.
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Told my brother… and he replied.  
Posted: 02 February 2016 02:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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My brother left the church as a teen, 30 years ago. He has no idea that I'm out.
 
I just came clean with him. The body of my email is attached. (I've removed personal and identifying details.) 
 
I haven't heard back yet... 
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Posted: 02 February 2016 03:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized:
My brother left the church as a teen, 30 years ago. He has no idea that I'm out.
 
I just came clean with him. The body of my email is attached. (I've removed personal and identifying details.) 
 
I haven't heard back yet... 
 
 Very nice letter.  Let us know how he responds.
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Posted: 02 February 2016 03:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Nice letter, MU. But I felt so trapped while reading it, remembering what it was like when I was still trying to salvage a dying marriage. I'm sorry that you're in this spot. Thank goodness for the 10 or so people whom you have told. Being totally closeted is a public version of solitary confinement.
 
I look forward to hearing how your brother responds. Please let us know.


   


Posted: 02 February 2016 07:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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My brother replied:

I didn't stay long in the Mormon church, nor have I done any real research into it. I didn't need to. I just knew it wasn't for me. It was the hardest decision of my life to tell mom and dad I wasn't going to church any more. Dad always said "If you don't go to church, you don't live in my house", and I believed him. I fully expected to be kicked out with only the clothes on my back. I was really surprised I wasn't. I remember telling grandpa I wasn't going on a mission and I could see his heart break. The sadness in his eyes is something I'll never forget, but I'm glad I did it. I'm glad I told them when I did. I wish you could have. Dad was a real ass to you back then and still can be now. I sometimes go between wanting to just let my Mormon family pretend everything is fine, and telling them all to wake the hell up. Do I want my kids to know my family? Yes. Do I want my kids to go to church? Nope, no way. Especially the Mormon church. Religion breeds hatred. Period. We see this daily, everywhere. 

I am an atheist. I told (our sister). I'm pretty sure she told the folks. If she hasn't, I won't. No need to make them upset. Not this late in their lives. I actually think it's good for them to have a child who doesn't go to their church. I hope it helps them realize that someone can be a good person even if they aren't Mormon. 

Like you, I have had many moments in my life that are more rewarding and life changing since coming to this understanding. 

I love you. Always have, always will. Thanks for telling me. 
 
So that worked out pretty well! Going to bed happy.....
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Posted: 02 February 2016 08:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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 That is good news with a new bond that is priceless!
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Posted: 03 February 2016 03:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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This is tough.
 
We haven't tell our families yet, my husband's nephew is coming from his mission next Tuesday, and he has my husband as his role model.  I don't think DH is ready for letting know to his family yet.  My family lives close and (even though most of them are inactive) they keep asking if we went to church every Sunday.
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Posted: 03 February 2016 12:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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MU, sweet: you have an ally. Your brother really got right to the core issues--it didn't work for him, he doesn't want it for his kids, he loves you and always will. Perfect! 
 
Antipsicotica, good luck when your husband's nephew comes home from the mission.


   


Posted: 04 February 2016 05:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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MU 

   


            
 
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Dedication Recommend Needed
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Mickelsen's "Dirty Linen"
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Not Angry, A little confused, and a lot scared
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Porn, Good or Bad?
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Ghawd is anti-immigration?
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The published journals of a gay apostate Mormon missionary
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Morg and Utah politics
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the temperature of your caffeine
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Do You Know Anyone Who Is Developing A Death Wish Because The Next Life Is So Wonderful?
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G.A. accused of sexual assault (link)
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Are you in a codependent relationship?
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   http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/42075/






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Financial Report for 2011 to Date

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I took a deep breath and “came out” on Facebook.  
Posted: 03 February 2016 08:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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The post is public so anyone with a FB account can read it. I hope you enjoy.
 
https://www.facebook.com/bruceah/posts/10207106810122411 
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 03 February 2016 09:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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Good stuff, man. That must have taken cojones. Now the band-aid has been ripped off. Let the chips (and the friends) fall where they may.
 
  Two thumbs up, and a tip of the hat to you. 
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Posted: 03 February 2016 09:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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This was a very well thought out post. The comments following include civil dicourse as well with family and even a dude with a title of bishop. Having taken the time to study and evaluate, you most certainly had taken the time to work through anger of realization of a life lost. Having a life gained made the written notice of being out of the mormon game easier for those TBM's to read and digest. Yes, they still try to pull you back in with crap they hold on to. A brother of mine made sure to point out fairmormon when I let him know I was done. It must be the official unofficial attempt at uninspired apologetics. Congratulations! In my world the more folks I let know the easier it gets that I am done. It does and did get better. They are at ease in their comfort zones. We that wake up are the ones that have to swim upstream in the tsunami of facts truth and change.
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.


   


Posted: 03 February 2016 02:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Wow, that was an amazing FB post.  I'm heartened by all the supportive responses you recieved.  It's good to have that kind of friends and family.
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.

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Posted: 03 February 2016 02:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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Matter Unorganized:
Good stuff, man. That must have taken cojones. 
 
 I was, indeed, born with two. 
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 03 February 2016 02:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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FreeLive:
This was a very well thought out post. The comments following include civil dicourse as well with family and even a dude with a title of bishop. Having taken the time to study and evaluate, you most certainly had taken the time to work through anger of realization of a life lost. Having a life gained made the written notice of being out of the mormon game easier for those TBM's to read and digest. Yes, they still try to pull you back in with crap they hold on to. A brother of mine made sure to point out fairmormon when I let him know I was done. It must be the official unofficial attempt at uninspired apologetics. Congratulations! In my world the more folks I let know the easier it gets that I am done. It does and did get better. They are at ease in their comfort zones. We that wake up are the ones that have to swim upstream in the tsunami of facts truth and change.
 
       Well, to be honest (and I prefer honesty), agonizing over "life lost", aka opportunities lost, is futile. The past is the past. It can, however, influence my future! So, I call it "life learned!"
 
       Fairmormon -- Bleh! Fairmoron is more suitable.
 
       AMEN!
 
Thanks for your comments! 
 Signature
Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 03 February 2016 02:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
Wow, that was an amazing FB post.  I'm heartened by all the supportive responses you recieved.  It's good to have that kind of friends and family.
 
Thanks!
 
I feel pretty good about the general tone of the comments. We'll see if it translates in private! In any case, I feel I do have an awesome family and an outstanding circle of friends.
 Signature
Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 03 February 2016 02:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Starfleet
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Dear Mr. Bruce Holt,
 
You are hereby requested and required to stay inside the LDS Church, to resist excommunication and set the LDS People on a new course. 
 
http://saltlakecity.craigslist.org/rnr/5383796120.html
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Posted: 03 February 2016 08:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
finex
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Thanks for sharing Bruce. The one disturbing thing was that you mentioned how TSCC holds an ultimatum that if you discuss about these truths you've found with faithful members you'll get excommunicated. I find that rather disgusting, threats made against you to keep you silent. 

   


Posted: 04 February 2016 09:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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Bruce, I was impressed at the support you received. Congratulations on coming out and being supported: it's a great combination! 

   


Posted: 05 February 2016 09:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Reading your post and each response was like therapy for me. I'm sure it was even more so for you. Thanks for sharing. 
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Posted: 09 February 2016 11:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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finex:
I find that rather disgusting, threats made against you to keep you silent.
 
 I should clarify, then, that I made the promise for my wife. She has a fear that my resignation or excommunication is irrecoverable. She operates on the basis of fear. Has done most of her life. That alone has left her with self esteem issues.
 
So, for now, I'll defer to her fear until she's strong enough to handle my situation.
 
 
 
And I'm working on that! 
 Signature
Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


Posted: 10 February 2016 02:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
finex
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Bruce A Holt:
finex:
I find that rather disgusting, threats made against you to keep you silent.
 
 I should clarify, then, that I made the promise for my wife. She has a fear that my resignation or excommunication is irrecoverable. She operates on the basis of fear. Has done most of her life. That alone has left her with self esteem issues.
 
So, for now, I'll defer to her fear until she's strong enough to handle my situation.
 
 
 
And I'm working on that! 
 
I see. All the best to you and your efforts on the subject.


   


Posted: 10 February 2016 05:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
Bruce A Holt
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finex:
I see. All the best to you and your efforts on the subject.
 
 Thanks!
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan


   


            
 
 ‹‹ Fasting Can Be Dangerous        They Really Can’t See that it is OK ››  
 
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Help with 12 minute video about dna. Need a rebuttal
by Strong Free & Thankful
Dedication Recommend Needed
by Denker
Mickelsen's "Dirty Linen"
by antipsicótica
Not Angry, A little confused, and a lot scared
by Winyan
Porn, Good or Bad?
by MishMagnet
Ghawd is anti-immigration?
by LostInParadise
The published journals of a gay apostate Mormon missionary
by CorbinBrodie
Morg and Utah politics
by Kevin2
St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward - Meetup - Sunday, February 21st, 10:00am at Harmons (Draper, UT) - ***New photo at bottom of thread***
by BITE ME
the temperature of your caffeine
by evil_archer
Revised Articles of Faith
by WinstonSmith
Do You Know Anyone Who Is Developing A Death Wish Because The Next Life Is So Wonderful?
by Strong Free & Thankful
Musings on the Holy Ghost
by Hank
What's in a Name?
by Denker
A New Reformation
by Lloyd Dobler
"It's not Stockholm Syndrome, I stay because The Spirit™ told me to!"
by Lloyd Dobler
Conspiracy Theories - Why Mormons Love Them So?
by Celestial Wedgie
G.A. accused of sexual assault (link)
by Elder OldDog
Are you in a codependent relationship?
by WinstonSmith
A blast from the "intellectual" past
by Strong Free & Thankful 

   http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/42077/






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2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah




















 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
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SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (1/3)
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SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (11/1)
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Southern Utah Postmormon Association to meet November 1st at the Red Lion in St. George
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NEW GROUP MEETING SCHEDULE!
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 Book of Mormon Tories
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Why I am a Better Mother
by antipsicótica 
Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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Post-mormon Roles
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former victim

The Book of Mormon Musical comes to South Carolina!
Swearing Elder

Resignation Letter to My Family
INRETROSPECT

Resignation Letter to My Family
oneanother

Utah County CALM meetup for November
BlackSheep2

FACEBOOK INFO
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Barn

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
Starfleet

October 5th PostMormon Lecture Series 2014
alvie

Why I am a Better Mother
by aworkinprogress 
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exmoinaz

SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (5/4)
owned

The Mormon Mask
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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We are NOT Special  
Posted: 01 February 2016 07:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
antipsicótica
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Maybe some of you know Alex and Mimi Ikonn, I like their inspirational videos and their lifestyle.  Today I watched this video of Alex Ikonn You are not special, first at looking at the title I thought: "Well, the mormon church taught me that I am special because I am mormon, so now I know I am not that special".
 
But when I started watching, it came to my mind what I thought when I started researching about the church, I thought that I had no one to talk to about it, that anyone would understand me and that I didn't knew anyone going through the same as me.  But as I reached my husband with the topic, I found that he was having the exact same thoughts as me and I felt an extraordinary relief (greater than the holy spirit).  Then I was grateful that I found a great community online and knowing that I am not special. 
 
Through this process I have also learned that I am no better than anyone, no drinking coffe or alcohol doesn't make me a better person, thinking I am going to heaven doesn't make me any more special than some other sinner.  I realized that I spent all of my life unconciously feeling superior to others when I wasn't.  I realized that being mormon is being elitist.
 
When/How did you find out that you are not special? 
 
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Posted: 01 February 2016 09:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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I was torn as a Mormon teenager, on one hand feeling like I must have somehow been valiant to be saved for "these end of times" days. It was certainly something that I wanted to be true. But on the other hand I felt like a worthless piece of human garbage for not meeting the expectations and never receiving a confirmation or tingle from God.
 
I was in my second year at BYU when I took a class on science and religion. The professor followed a very tight script, never allowing us to ask question or get him off course. But he was well prepared and actually quite compelling. I have sometimes thought about him and whether he intended to shake testimonies, his most consistent refrain being, "We used to think but now we know." In his class the words "now we know" were code for "we are currently wrong by believing..."
 
He made a good point of tracing all of the ways that science dethroned humans: not the center of the universe, not the center of the galaxy, not the center of the solar system, and not even central in the overall flux of life and species. By the end of the class I was seeing the world through new eyes and I have always maintained intentional skepticism of anyone who lauded me as special. (I'm narcissistic enough that I can fall for that, so I have to be on the lookout.)
 
I find it interesting that so many people derive specialness via being less than: less healthy, less wealthy, less confident, less educated, less mathematical, more broken, more wounded. The harm is about the same: to the degree that we see ourselves as separate from others we also distance ourselves from our own humanity and from the fact that most of our flaws are perfectly acceptable but also merit our attention.
 
By the way, Antipsicotica, I really enjoy your posts.


   


Posted: 01 February 2016 10:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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Thank you for this link. I may consider posting it on facebook. A deciding factor in doing so would be in if tbm's would hear special and understand that special could be 'elect' or 'peculiar'. My family upbringing was normal and natural. Love , without strings attached , connective love is what was a part of my role modelling. I see no one as better than or greater than myself and I do not place myself as better than others. Gratitude sure helps in sharing strengths and weaknesses between human kind. I find it interesting that here on postmormon many an atheist will post how they will not worship any god. I ponder that statement and think true, why worship anything? But, as I leave open the window for god to be love , just plain love , I see that love makes no demand to be worshipped. Noone is special. We all are love. We are in the same vibration, in tune with the frequency or most likely in some form of denial of love.  That is how I view life. 
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Posted: 01 February 2016 10:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
peace out
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when youth leaders would tell us that we where special. we would respond under our breath "I would rather be dead than special"  fond memory


   


Posted: 01 February 2016 11:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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FreeLive:
Thank you for this link. I may consider posting it on facebook. A deciding factor in doing so would be in if tbm's would hear special and understand that special could be 'elect' or 'peculiar'. My family upbringing was normal and natural. Love , without strings attached , connective love is what was a part of my role modelling. I see no one as better than or greater than myself and I do not place myself as better than others. Gratitude sure helps in sharing strengths and weaknesses between human kind. I find it interesting that here on postmormon many an atheist will post how they will not worship any god. I ponder that statement and think true, why worship anything? But, as I leave open the window for god to be love , just plain love , I see that love makes no demand to be worshipped. Noone is special. We all are love. We are in the same vibration, in tune with the frequency or most likely in some form of denial of love.  That is how I view life. 
 
I love this. I also had a good upbringing, but 30+ years as an adult and away from the day-to-day influence of my parents got me a good dose of mormon indoctrination. I was indeed special, valiant, elect, peculiar (well - I still my lay some claim to that one!), reserved for these last days... Oh brother! Even today, as I was discussing this very concept with my exmo brother, I felt a wave of guilt for the way that I had treated less-than-orthodox mormons when I was a believer. 
 
Sadly, as I now look at my parents in their advancing years, the church has consumed them as well. When I was in the hospital recovering from a stroke a few years back, they had to check their temple service schedule before they could come and visit me. This saddened me greatly (and still does), because my parents were NOT raised in the correlated church, and this definitely influenced my upbringing. Now that's all shot to hell.
 
You are 100% right - LOVE is what we need, where we should strive to be, what our motivation should be - and love makes no demand to be worshipped. Damn, I wish I had thought of that myself!
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Posted: 01 February 2016 12:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
antipsicótica
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Celestial Wedgie:
I was torn as a Mormon teenager, on one hand feeling like I must have somehow been valiant to be saved for "these end of times" days. It was certainly something that I wanted to be true. But on the other hand I felt like a worthless piece of human garbage for not meeting the expectations and never receiving a confirmation or tingle from God.
 
I was in my second year at BYU when I took a class on science and religion. The professor followed a very tight script, never allowing us to ask question or get him off course. But he was well prepared and actually quite compelling. I have sometimes thought about him and whether he intended to shake testimonies, his most consistent refrain being, "We used to think but now we know." In his class the words "now we know" were code for "we are currently wrong by believing..."
 
He made a good point of tracing all of the ways that science dethroned humans: not the center of the universe, not the center of the galaxy, not the center of the solar system, and not even central in the overall flux of life and species. By the end of the class I was seeing the world through new eyes and I have always maintained intentional skepticism of anyone who lauded me as special. (I'm narcissistic enough that I can fall for that, so I have to be on the lookout.)
 
I find it interesting that so many people derive specialness via being less than: less healthy, less wealthy, less confident, less educated, less mathematical, more broken, more wounded. The harm is about the same: to the degree that we see ourselves as separate from others we also distance ourselves from our own humanity and from the fact that most of our flaws are perfectly acceptable but also merit our attention.
 
By the way, Antipsicotica, I really enjoy your posts.
 
 Thank you! And thank you for sharing your experience.  
 
Certainly everything we think we know will in some point be proved or  lose credibility. 
 
Evolution and the universe is a topic that I would like to bring some day.  
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Posted: 01 February 2016 04:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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I was raised to believe that you had to be special, or "better than." I remember longing for it to be OK to just be a normal faulty human being. Eventually I realized that's what I am. And it's ok. But I had to leave mormonism to really get it. 

   


Posted: 01 February 2016 05:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Quartersawn
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I'm so glad I'm not 'special' anymore. Your comments about feeling superior or above the rest is how I felt, too. But for some reason I didn't make any better choices, other members of the church didn't make any better choices. I was lead to believe that inspiriation was how I was to live my life, but it lead me to join Multi-Level-Marketing schemes one after another untill I had been consumed by at least 20 different schemes. I probably lost close to $100 grand over the years. Not to say some good things come of it, but I bought it hook, line, and sinker. 
It's great to be able to eat or drink anything I want. I'm not an alcoholic, in fact I'm not even a moderate drinker, but at least I have the choice.
I love coffee. It's great to know it has over 30 major health benefits but, somehow, the prophets missed.  
It's great to be able to buy underwear that is not white, that fits, and that is sexy.
It's great to be able to sleep nude. Have done so for more than five years.  
It's great to be responsible for MY decisions and not pass the blame on to church leaders or prayer, or God said-so. I find I make better decisions. 
It's good to be able to be with the guys and talk about sex or see a movie that has sex on screen or say and the words that people want to say but for some stupid reason they say a substitute word...as if that makes it any better. 
I feel more connected to those around me, I don't feel pretentious or better than.  
Yes, it's great to be normal.
 
 
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Why would you consider a man a prophet whose morals are worse than your own? Having claimed to commune with deity, be visited by angels and receive revelations, should he not be held to a higher standard? —me


   


Posted: 01 February 2016 05:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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Matter Unorganized:
FreeLive:
Thank you for this link. I may consider posting it on facebook. A deciding factor in doing so would be in if tbm's would hear special and understand that special could be 'elect' or 'peculiar'. My family upbringing was normal and natural. Love , without strings attached , connective love is what was a part of my role modelling. I see no one as better than or greater than myself and I do not place myself as better than others. Gratitude sure helps in sharing strengths and weaknesses between human kind. I find it interesting that here on postmormon many an atheist will post how they will not worship any god. I ponder that statement and think true, why worship anything? But, as I leave open the window for god to be love , just plain love , I see that love makes no demand to be worshipped. Noone is special. We all are love. We are in the same vibration, in tune with the frequency or most likely in some form of denial of love.  That is how I view life. 
 
I love this. I also had a good upbringing, but 30+ years as an adult and away from the day-to-day influence of my parents got me a good dose of mormon indoctrination. I was indeed special, valiant, elect, peculiar (well - I still my lay some claim to that one!), reserved for these last days... Oh brother! Even today, as I was discussing this very concept with my exmo brother, I felt a wave of guilt for the way that I had treated less-than-orthodox mormons when I was a believer. 
 
Sadly, as I now look at my parents in their advancing years, the church has consumed them as well. When I was in the hospital recovering from a stroke a few years back, they had to check their temple service schedule before they could come and visit me. This saddened me greatly (and still does), because my parents were NOT raised in the correlated church, and this definitely influenced my upbringing. Now that's all shot to hell.
 
You are 100% right - LOVE is what we need, where we should strive to be, what our motivation should be - and love makes no demand to be worshipped. Damn, I wish I had thought of that myself!
 Free2Live--Just as MU says, "You are 100 percent right!  If everyone's god was love, there would be no fighting over religion.  It requires no worship.  Love is who we are--at our best.  Perhaps someday, we will all be in tune with this frequency.  Know what?  Love would put LDS, Inc out of business!  Good job Free2Live!  Like your post as well Mu!  Sorry about your parents.  Many of us can relate.  Cog dis is powerful and mormonism has found takes full advantage of that human weakenss.  Lets pass around the love--like cookies through an open window!   
 
Edited to Add:  Hmm--was thinking about a song I wrote on this subject some time back.  I really need to do something with my music.  I just changed a line in my song to:  : "Love requires no worship--the only religion true and free."  You would have to hear the rest of the song--it rhythms.  Hope that is OK with you Free2Live.  And Thanks!   
 
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 02 February 2016 04:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
Hank
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Having been a convert, I don't know about the feeling special part, but I did quickly feel the need to always be the best that I can be; to work towards perfection. On the surface that sounds good, but in practice it can be difficult. And I think it has greatly affected my life.
 
For example, before converting, my goal was to eventually become a car dealer. Had only a 2 year degree and didn't want more schooling. I played with my kids, partied on the weekend, went out for long drives and could actually relax.
 
After joining the church and listening to my first conference, where Hinkley was promoting making money and going to college, I felt that I had to abondon my dream and work harder to earn more money. A couple of years later, I went back to school and took on crazy student loans that I'll be paying off well after retirement.
 
I had a ward and a stake calling and spent a lot of time in various church meetings and service projects. I spent far less time with my kids. Haven't gone on a pointless but fun long drive in many years. Couldn't relax if my life depended on it.
 
Before joining the church, I didn't compare myself to anyone, or have goals that were based on outside influences, I just did what I wanted to do, from the heart. After joining, I busted my ass to become "more". I compared myself to others not as in wanting what they had, but wondering where I had failed (and beating myself up for shortcommings or lack of talent/skill in certain areas). I wasn't faithful enough, God didn't bless me because I fell short of the mark...


   


Posted: 02 February 2016 03:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Quartersawn
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Hank:
Having been a convert, I don't know about the feeling special part, but I did quickly feel the need to always be the best that I can be; to work towards perfection. On the surface that sounds good, but in practice it can be difficult. And I think it has greatly affected my life.
 
For example, before converting, my goal was to eventually become a car dealer. Had only a 2 year degree and didn't want more schooling. I played with my kids, partied on the weekend, went out for long drives and could actually relax.
 
After joining the church and listening to my first conference, where Hinkley was promoting making money and going to college, I felt that I had to abondon my dream and work harder to earn more money. A couple of years later, I went back to school and took on crazy student loans that I'll be paying off well after retirement.
 
I had a ward and a stake calling and spent a lot of time in various church meetings and service projects. I spent far less time with my kids. Haven't gone on a pointless but fun long drive in many years. Couldn't relax if my life depended on it.
 
Before joining the church, I didn't compare myself to anyone, or have goals that were based on outside influences, I just did what I wanted to do, from the heart. After joining, I busted my ass to become "more". I compared myself to others not as in wanting what they had, but wondering where I had failed (and beating myself up for shortcommings or lack of talent/skill in certain areas). I wasn't faithful enough, God didn't bless me because I fell short of the mark...
 
 How ironic, isn't it? They preach the opposite, but reality bites hard. 
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First Moment of Doubt  
Posted: 10 February 2016 10:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Denker
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What was it that triggered your very first feeling of doubt about the LDS Church?  My first moment came immediately after receiving my own temple endowment.  It was long ago where the actors were live and the execution of the penalty was still part of the ceremony.  I remember saying to myself, "What in the name of almightly hell was that!!"  This experience greatly impaired my ability to bear a sincere witness of Joseph Smith and the Restoration while on my mission. 

   


Posted: 10 February 2016 11:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
peace out
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first would be when I was three years old and I got dragged into primary (remember hating it was very controlling ) I asked to go back to our old Methodist church, mama said no. I remember asking several times.
 
So many times I had my eye balls popped out, finding out about garments, becoming a god,(that one made me nervous didn't seem right) Temple also freaked me out.
Book of Abraham really kicked to doors in for me.


   


Posted: 10 February 2016 12:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Kevin2
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Mine was on the mission when I studied the history of the church and could not believe the inconsistencies and inaccuracies I found. I explained them away at the time but the doubt never left me.
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Posted: 10 February 2016 01:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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There are too many moments to remember when I put things on the shelf. Some of this goes back to my elementary school days, the first moment of "I don't know if I like this" came when I was 7 years old, but at that age I didn't dare speak out. I was trying to explain "primary" to a school teacher - I was in a non-LDS community and primary was mid-week at the time - and something inside me suddenly realized that this was not normal for other kids in my school. This would have been around 1968 or 1969. Not a huge thing, but that's the first one I can remember.
 
I learned about peep stones in seminary. I didn't think much of it at the time. I went a mission and found out about JS's polygamy and the multiple accounts of the first vision. That blew my mind, and I almost quit my mission over the first vision thing. Then a few years after my mission there was the Ron Poelman fiasco, and also the realization that adults in the church were just as petty as adults outside of the church - they weren't somehow better or more special.
 
It went on like this for almost 30 more years. I think the one issue which totally cracked my shelf was people repeating "follow the prophet" like some kind of mantra, but these same people wouldn't live it. And these weren't "fringe" members, these were folks in bishoprics and relief society presidencies... the folks who make the church function on a ward level. They'd follow the prophet, but only in matters convenient to them. They were a bunch of hypocrites, and I was sick of it. It took me several years to go from being cognizant of the hypocrisy to a point where I actually needed to do something about it.

So I started researching. I started looking into why folks would say one thing OPENLY, and then contradict it OPENLY. It's one thing to not practice in private what you preach publicly, but these were people who would do both publicly. And everyone was fine with it! I couldn't figure it out, so I started reading. 
 
Then one day google led me here, and within a month I knew it was all a sham. 
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Posted: 10 February 2016 01:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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At the time I didn't know it was doubt. Way back in (jr ?) sunday school the teacher asked what is a miracle? I raised my little boy hand and answered that it was when when something that isn't supposed to happen happens. The teacher was unimpressed and got a little girl classmate to answer. Sharon said Jesus is a miracle. The teacher was elated in praise and adoration of this answer. When I sent in my letter of resignation that teacher was named in my list of thanks for those that helped in my escape from the cult.
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.


   


Posted: 10 February 2016 02:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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I remember as a young girl feeling like some things in the church just weren't right. I didn't think they would have come from Christ. Probably the biggest one was polygamy.
 
Then it was just a series of warnings along the way that I should have paid more attention to. Until it got to the point where I realized how dark it was, and felt like I was poisoning myself by staying in it. So I left.


   


Posted: 10 February 2016 02:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Free2Live:
At the time I didn't know it was doubt. Way back in (jr ?) sunday school the teacher asked what is a miracle? I raised my little boy hand and answered that it was when when something that isn't supposed to happen happens. The teacher was unimpressed and got a little girl classmate to answer. Sharon said Jesus is a miracle. The teacher was elated in praise and adoration of this answer. When I sent in my letter of resignation that teacher was named in my list of thanks for those that helped in my escape from the cult.
 
Damn! I already named Dovolente my hero of the day for saying "As doctrine is, theories of men once were. As theories of men are, doctrine may become" in the "God Was Once A Man?..." thread, but you may have surpassed that! 
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Posted: 10 February 2016 11:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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Matter Unorganized:
Free2Live:
At the time I didn't know it was doubt. Way back in (jr ?) sunday school the teacher asked what is a miracle? I raised my little boy hand and answered that it was when when something that isn't supposed to happen happens. The teacher was unimpressed and got a little girl classmate to answer. Sharon said Jesus is a miracle. The teacher was elated in praise and adoration of this answer. When I sent in my letter of resignation that teacher was named in my list of thanks for those that helped in my escape from the cult.
 
Damn! I already named Dovolente my hero of the day for saying "As doctrine is, theories of men once were. As theories of men are, doctrine may become" in the "God Was Once A Man?..." thread, but you may have surpassed that! 
 
 I too chuckled and smiled accolades to Dovolente. 
 
lol Well In my couple or three years here on postmo I have been frustrated a bit with the site being a passive vent therapy arena rather than being a needed activist center. I knew that when I went out of the cult I was going out on the offensive and not on the victimized defensive. My posts show that I am not taking crap any more. I did not ask permission to leave I told them I was done. I am sure I left off many a name that some how tilted my spiritual mormon pinball game at times. No one asked for how they were honored to be specifically recognized in my resignation. lol I think my letter was kept confidential except to those who had a sacred/secret need to know. I have my 'Certificate of Graduation'.
 
I want my money back!
 
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.


   


Posted: 11 February 2016 09:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise
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I'm guessing a lot of us had doubts that we shelved. But the big catalyst was temple v. masonry including blood oaths. That made me realize there was a lot I didn't know, so I devoured page after page of "spiritual porn" from those "evil anti's", and it all came crashing down.
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Posted: 11 February 2016 10:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
danboyle2
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My very first moment ? Memorizing the articles of faithas a little kid..."we believe man will be punished for his own sins, and not for Adam's trangression"...except for black people.  
 
Yes, I am that old and I remember the priesthood ban very well. It was lifted a few months before I left on my mission.  I nevere forgot that moment, but I did bury it for a long time.
 
Then the temple ceremony.  Enough said, this was 1978, so we got the full death slashes, naked touching and crazy oaths. I was blitzed beyond belief, but I continued...
 
Years later I was reading a book on Free Masonry (having nothing to do with mormonism)  and came across the temple ceremony, including the part where you get the final token at the veil and only after positioning yourself with the 5 points of fellowship...the exact same five points, hammer on the wall and holes in the veil, everything...gimmie a break ! 
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Posted: 11 February 2016 10:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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danboyle:
My very first moment ? Memorizing the articles of faithas a little kid..."we believe man will be punished for his own sins, and not for Adam's trangression"...except for black people.  
 
Yes, I am that old and I remember the priesthood ban very well. It was lifted a few months before I left on my mission.  I nevere forgot that moment, but I did bury it for a long time.
 
Then the temple ceremony.  Enough said, this was 1978, so we got the full death slashes, naked touching and crazy oaths. I was blitzed beyond belief, but I continued...
 
Years later I was reading a book on Free Masonry (having nothing to do with mormonism)  and came across the temple ceremony, including the part where you get the final token at the veil and only after positioning yourself with the 5 points of fellowship...the exact same five points, hammer on the wall and holes in the veil, everything...gimmie a break ! 
 
This gives me hope. Because in a few years (hell, mabye already), there will be a kid memorizing the articles of faith "we believe man will be punished for his own sins, and not for Adam's transgression"...except for kids with gay parents.
 
I was in high school when the priesthood ban on blacks was lifted. Many of the mormon kids were telling each other how wonderful it was, but I was relieved - relieved that my religiously aware friends would stop lambasting me on at least this one point!
 
The only way I got through the temple ceremony (full-meal deal as well) was telling myself over and over again "My friends have done it, my parents have done it, my grandparents have done it, so I must do it too." It was still difficult, especially looking over my mom as she pretended to disembowel herself as she promised never to reveal the names, signs and penalties of the tokens.
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Posted: 11 February 2016 10:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
jellybean
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For me it was traveling to another country and meeting people who had no religion in their daily lives (Russia), and also thinking about various figures in history. Basically, I couldn't wrap my head around why people like Mother Teresa, or any number of really great people, would be excluded from the CK just for picking the wrong religion, or not having one. Everything else just kind of added to the feeling I already had that things weren't quiet right. 

   


Posted: 11 February 2016 10:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Lloyd Dobler
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driving home from a late church meeting maybe 14 years ago........I was like, "is this it?....is this all there is?  Why isn't this more fullfilling?  Why don't I feel better?.."
 
the years of church service seemed to come down on me all at once while driving home.  I knew all there would be for me would be more meetings and more callings and most importantly, more time away from my wife and kids.  I didn't doubt the church that night but I did question the life it produces or really, requires.
 
2 or 3 years later I'm researching this BofA thing for a friend who left the church and within 10 minutes I knew it was bullshit.
 
 
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Posted: 13 February 2016 12:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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bradspencer74
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My first moment of true doubt was on my mission.  At that point I was still thinking that there was something wrong with me about my sexuality and not the Church.
 
At any rate, in Dec of my first year, I got a sinus infection that rapidly developed into a severe oral and respiratory mess.  My 'wonderful'  mission mom refused to allow me to see a doctor, saying tithing funds were much to sacred and Missionary medical - whom we were forbidden to speak to on own own - said it was nothing that a little overdose of Tylenol and Advil couldn't cure.  
 
By the 3rd refusal, and my developing vertigo from the infection reaching my ears, my companion called a member, who came over to our apt.  She was a heath insurance coordinator for United Health.  The moment she saw me, she took me to the doc, paid for my meds, out of her own pocket.  The doc was close to hospitalizing me, but he allowed me to stay at the apt, as long as I stayed in bed for 10 days.  
 
When I was out of Church the next morning, busy body members called the MP, who sent the APs to scream at me for not being out 'doing the work' but they practically ran away from me, seeing me coughing up green and bloody mucus.  Said member then called two stake presidents - who were friends of mine as I served my mission in the same town I got my undergrad in - and the 3 of them ripped the MP a new asshole.  ONLY  at the point where my condition became known to the members and became a PR problem, did old mission mom 'call' to see if I needed a doctor, knowing full well the members had paid for it.
 
I was sick for a month, trying to recover.  Fast forward 2 months.  I get assigned to the mission office.  I then saw that while paying for antibiotics was a waste of sacred tithing funds, exactly what that woman and her husband considered proper use of tithing funds.   I watched them even charge off their vet  bills and dog food on tithing accounts, whilet making ,missionaries clean up the dog sh!t from its kennel every morning.  A vet bill, pet food,  in fact every single payment they ever made on anything, charged to 'sacred' tithing funds, while they continually forced mishies to go without medical treatment.  Watched them make an elder ask a member ob/gyn to set his broken arm and cast it so they wouldn't have to pay for it.
 
Seeing my MPs embezzlement really pushed me over the edge.  My very first true questioning of the LDS world view came from that.  Things came to a head before I was ready - when my mother found out about my sexuality 4 months after I got home and got the ball rolling on church disipline - but my first real doubts were those months seeing just who was important and who wasn't.
 
BTW - my embezzling MP was rewarded when he got home by being made a top administrator of Church welfare/DI.   Wonder what he got the church to pay for out of that. ..
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Posted: 13 February 2016 01:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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MishMagnet
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I was deeply depressed and unhappy in the church.  Sickly, dragging myself along with no happiness in my heart and trying to find the happiness in being ever more righteous. 
 
That should have been my first moment of doubt, but it wasn't.
 
My first moment of doubt came while reading "A History of Joseph Smith as Told by His Mother."  A Bookcraft book sent to me by family members who were at the time mission presidents. 
 
I felt like I knew JS pretty well having had a life immersed in the church.  Felt like I knew the guy personally, he was my buddy, he was good, he was brave.
 
So reading about him being gone from Nauvoo so much, in hiding.  His mother prophesying in his place, church members being lured away by a woman who read from a black stone, these people sounded downright occultish.   
 
There was something that bothered me more though, and it took me a little while to figure it out.  Not one mention of polygamy in the book.  I thought either 1) His mother had no knowledge of his extra wives, her daughters in law.  Or 2) All references to them were removed from the book.  Either option was troubling.  I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ - well, if that gospel includes pologamy and all is on the up and up with Heavenly Father - someone was ashamed of it. 
 
That one observation led me down the rabbit hole.   
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Why did I not find this place sooner?!  
Posted: 10 February 2016 04:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Kevin2
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I told my story a few days ago on the Introduce yourself post but I feel like I need to update it.
 
I left the church years ago after a lot of research I did on my own. I was embarrassed about my apostasy so I did not talk to anyone about it. Recently I found out that a long lost friend and his wife left the church. I reached out to him and he told me about this site and advised me to join. I was telling him that living in Orem we have had a hard time finding like minded friends. Now that I have been here a few days I have come to a realization.
 
All of my study, that eventually disproved the church for me, came from reading church sponsored books and articles. I never looked for literature to the contrary (probably because the last thing I wanted was for the church to not be true). By way of this site I have found a few resources but the one that I have spent the last 5 hours reading is Mormonthink.com.
 
I literally read the entire BOA page and confirmed each resource. I knew I didn't believe it before and that was good enough for me. It is refreshing to find a place where someone has compiled so much proof. This will really help me when challenged in the future.
 
Thank you to this beautiful site and all of you out there that are sharing your stories and thoughts.
 
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Posted: 10 February 2016 06:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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I totally agree Kevin2 and I know a lot of us here feel as you do.  What a wonderful gift has been given to each of us with this site!  We are not alone--for sure.  That is so important.  Finding that your life, mind, money and sometimes your relationships have been stolen by an evil fraud that has lies as its foundation, is not an easy situation to face alone.  I try to send the energy of gratitude and the energy of good karma to the founder.  How can we every pay him back for this site?  What a diference one person with an idea and determination can make!  Yes, MormomThink.com is credible and amazing!  Another example of being there for their fellow man/woman and making the world a much better and informed place.
 
Strong, Free & Thankful (& as you say--Grateful!)  
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 10 February 2016 10:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Welcome, Kevin2 ! 

   


Posted: 11 February 2016 04:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Quartersawn
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Glad you made it out Kevin2. 
I lived in Orem when I left the church. It was fascinating, and put a grin on my face, to see more and more leave in UT valley.
 
Maybe when Summer comes we'll have a PostMo meetup in UT Valley.  
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Posted: 11 February 2016 05:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
peace out
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Welcome Kevin
Good luck- Looks like your about to enter the read your eyeballs out phase.http://www.postmormon.org/javascript/tiny_mce_2_1_2/plugins/emotions_2/images/smiley1.gif 
I don't live in Utah but I did leave long before I found out all the dirty details like the BOA.
It has been a fascination for me ever since.
some other cool stuff to look at is
 
Utah light house ministries they did all the early serious critical research into church history.The tanners are a treasure, honest research.
Mormon Stories podcasts are fun to listen to.
Mormon think you already found but great stuff there.
 
 
I also really like.
 
Fawn Brodie’s bookNo Man Knows My History  -incredible read.
By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus: A New Look at the Joseph Smith Papyri
 
 
 
I was stunned by how much I had been manipulated by propaganda. 
 


   


Posted: 11 February 2016 01:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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Kevin2, I don't know why you didn't find us sooner but I'm glad you're here now! Welcome! For me this place has given the opportunity to review and review again my thoughts, feelings, and assumptions about the LDS church and about broad aspects of life and relationships. I feel so much less alone and personally defective. It helps having decent people who will gently confront my flaws while supporting my progress.
 
It also helps a ton to know that I'm not crazy, that the reason I see the church as a fraud is that, well, it IS a fraud! 
 
My self-doubt is dramatically reduced and I'm happier now.


   


            
 
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Throwing away my garments  
Posted: 02 February 2016 02:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
antipsicótica
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Hello.
 
I am throwing my garments away this week, I have done this before, but this will be the last time I do it.
 
I always had a love-hate relationship with garments, I felt naked without them, but it was too much work for me to have to wear them, wash them (they are like 50% of the laundry!) hide them from the maid, also I live in a very hot country and it's just ridiculous to wear several layers of clothes in this weather. 
 
Well, I am ready to throw them.  My husband is still attached to his garments, and he finds that I am overly excited to throw them, I replied: "Well, they could have an actual use for men, but for women is just a nuisance." 
 
Should I follow the rules and cut out the masonry symbols or just let poor people find and wear them? I gave some cutted in half to the maid for cleaning last month.  
 
I really want to burn them, but I know I would set my house on fire   
 
Should I make a ceremony for this? Did you already thrown your garments? Was it a big deal for you? 
 
 
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Posted: 02 February 2016 02:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Don't bother cutting out the symbols. They are meaningless.
 
Some people have a little ceremony, I didn't. I was just glad to be rid of them! 
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Posted: 02 February 2016 02:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
antipsicótica
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Matter Unorganized:
Don't bother cutting out the symbols. They are meaningless.
 
Some people have a little ceremony, I didn't. I was just glad to be rid of them! 
 
 I thought of having a ceremony, but
 
I think it is giving it more importance than it actually has
It could turn weirder than the temple ceremony 
 
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Posted: 02 February 2016 02:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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antipsicótica:
Hello.
 
I am throwing my garments away this week, I have done this before, but this will be the last time I do it.
 
I always had a love-hate relationship with garments, I felt naked without them, but it was too much work for me to have to wear them, wash them (they are like 50% of the laundry!) hide them from the maid, also I live in a very hot country and it's just ridiculous to wear several layers of clothes in this weather. 
 
Well, I am ready to throw them.  My husband is still attached to his garments, and he finds that I am overly excited to throw them, I replied: "Well, they could have an actual use for men, but for women is just a nuisance." 
 
Should I follow the rules and cut out the masonry symbols or just let poor people find and wear them? I gave some cutted in half to the maid for cleaning last month.  
 
I really want to burn them, but I know I would set my house on fire   
 
Should I make a ceremony for this? Did you already thrown your garments? Was it a big deal for you? 
 
 
 
 There is nothing wrong with nakedness. I was born naked and am willing to gamble that you were too. Self acceptance and self respect do not come from external bullies , especially a cult called a church. Already you have mentioned the extra work and effort and stress garments don upon your psyche, which is extra extracurricular for what ropa are for. You didn't choose them but were told you must model them to yourself. As with other worn fabrics they can be recycled usefully , like in rags for clean up on kitchen ailse 2 or bathroom 1. As for cutting out the masonic symbols , I see that as your choice to do or not do depending on whether or not the sight of them is too unnerving. Again that is their rule. Leaving the mormon fraternity is all about regaining inner locus of control and living life. Burning them sounds very therapeutic in how your post reads. lol. What ever you choose enjoy the freedom!
  
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Posted: 02 February 2016 02:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
antipsicótica
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FreeLive:
antipsicótica:
Hello.
 
I am throwing my garments away this week, I have done this before, but this will be the last time I do it.
 
I always had a love-hate relationship with garments, I felt naked without them, but it was too much work for me to have to wear them, wash them (they are like 50% of the laundry!) hide them from the maid, also I live in a very hot country and it's just ridiculous to wear several layers of clothes in this weather. 
 
Well, I am ready to throw them.  My husband is still attached to his garments, and he finds that I am overly excited to throw them, I replied: "Well, they could have an actual use for men, but for women is just a nuisance." 
 
Should I follow the rules and cut out the masonry symbols or just let poor people find and wear them? I gave some cutted in half to the maid for cleaning last month.  
 
I really want to burn them, but I know I would set my house on fire   
 
Should I make a ceremony for this? Did you already thrown your garments? Was it a big deal for you? 
 
 
 
 There is nothing wrong with nakedness. I was born naked and am willing to gamble that you were too. Self acceptance and self respect do not come from external bullies , especially a cult called a church. Already you have mentioned the extra work and effort and stress garments don upon your psyche, which is extra extracurricular for what ropa are for. You didn't choose them but were told you must model them to yourself. As with other worn fabrics they can be recycled usefully , like in rags for clean up on kitchen ailse 2 or bathroom 1. As for cutting out the masonic symbols , I see that as your choice to do or not do depending on whether or not the sight of them is too unnerving. Again that is their rule. Leaving the mormon fraternity is all about regaining inner locus of control and living life. Burning them sounds very therapeutic in how your post reads. lol. What ever you choose enjoy the freedom!
  
 
 Yes, burning them would be so liberating. LOL.
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Posted: 02 February 2016 03:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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A week after I told my TBM family that I was no longer going to be a morgbot, I bagged my g's up in a trash bag and threw them in the trash  --  that in and of itself was vert therapeutic.  I thought about burning them but I had given enough time to the morg and I was unwilling to give any more.  I have really enjoyed my new "apostate" undies. 

   


Posted: 02 February 2016 03:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Quartersawn
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Once I found out about the fraud of the church I was anxious to get rid of them. I simply put them in a trash bag and through them in the trash, for such they are. 
Cutting them up and using them as rags would just remind me of them.
Cutting out the masonic symbols would be up to you, but as I recall it was never officially talked about in the temple. I think it was a wives tale that turned into policy or doctrine. 
The fact that Joseph Smith stole the masonic rites for temple endowment only frustrates me more and more, and I owe no respect to the temple garments or Joseph Smith.
 
Every day when I put on my colored boxers and/or an optional sleveless t-shirt I am grateful I no longer wear garments.
Every night when I take EVERY THING off to go to sleep I am grateful I no longer wear garments.  
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Posted: 02 February 2016 03:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
peace out
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Dam things are half plastic, the smoke is almost as toxic as the religion that required them. I would have a trash can ritual. consider it a proxy baptism for Oscar the grouch.


   


Posted: 02 February 2016 03:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
antipsicótica
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maynardg:
A week after I told my TBM family that I was no longer going to be a morgbot, I bagged my g's up in a trash bag and threw them in the trash  --  that in and of itself was vert therapeutic.  I thought about burning them but I had given enough time to the morg and I was unwilling to give any more.  I have really enjoyed my new "apostate" undies.
 
 LOL. I love my apostate undies, too... and my husband, of course. 
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“Take that money, watch it burn, sink in the river the lessons I’ve learned”.


   


Posted: 02 February 2016 04:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
antipsicótica
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Quartersawn:
Once I found out about the fraud of the church I was anxious to get rid of them. I simply put them in a trash bag and through them in the trash, for such they are. 
Cutting them up and using them as rags would just remind me of them.
Cutting out the masonic symbols would be up to you, but as I recall it was never officially talked about in the temple. I think it was a wives tale that turned into policy or doctrine. 
The fact that Joseph Smith stole the masonic rites for temple endowment only frustrates me more and more, and I owe no respect to the temple garments or Joseph Smith.
 
Every day when I put on my colored boxers and/or an optional sleveless t-shirt I am grateful I no longer wear garments.
Every night when I take EVERY THING off to go to sleep I am grateful I no longer wear garments.  
 
Actually there is a "selected church policies" section in the Handbook that displays this:

To dispose of worn-out temple garments, members should cut out and destroy the marks. Members then cut up the remaining fabric so it cannot be identified as a garment. Once the marks are removed, the fabric is not considered sacred.

 https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/selected-church-policies?lang=eng
 

Very interesting topics in that page.
 
Endowment is just another evidence that Joseph Smith took bits and pieces of differents religions to his convenience to create the mormon church. 
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Posted: 02 February 2016 04:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
antipsicótica
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peace out:
 
Dam things are half plastic, the smoke is almost as toxic as the religion that required them. I would have a trash can ritual. consider it a proxy baptism for Oscar the grouch.
 
 LOL. I thought they were 100% cotton.
 
Good idea.  
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“Take that money, watch it burn, sink in the river the lessons I’ve learned”.


   


Posted: 02 February 2016 04:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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I was quite happy to ditch the old one piece garments.  I just tossed them in the trash.
 
I read somewhere about a couple who gathered up all their garments and left them in a pile somewhere in the house.  Then they got mixed in with some old clothes that ended up being dropped off at a Goodwill Store.  The thought of the non-mormons at Goodwill trying to figure out what they were is humorous. 
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Posted: 02 February 2016 06:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
jellybean
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We burned ours actually, and they do not burn well! It was terrible, messy, and stinky. But I was so happy to be back in regular undies again, so it was worth it. smile 

   


Posted: 03 February 2016 08:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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If you cut them up into smaller pieces...they make great cleaning cloths....
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Posted: 03 February 2016 10:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
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dicksolomon
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I just threw mine out in a big bag. My husband is military so some of his uniform undershirts are still garments, and I hate seeing them. When he was in Iraq, we had mailed some of his wicking uniform tops to SLC to have the marks silk screened into them, and until we get his new uniforms, I'll just see them in the laundry every week. We live in a pretty hot place too, and I can't imagine wearing them all summer, along with the dorky shorts and t-shirts!
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Posted: 07 February 2016 06:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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guywithearrings50
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I just bagged mine up and threw them in the trash. I was going to burn them but like someone posted above I didn't want to waste any more time on the morg
 
I remember back in 2010 when my (then) 8 year old son was baptized, my wife and I got back into full activity with renewed zeal and went to the temple. We picked the hottest day of the year to get new garments. We put them on and strolled around the temple looking at the pretty flowers and I was thinking "I'm going to die of heatstroke in these things". they chafed and I was sweating after only a few minutes.
 
Going back to regular "apostate" underwear was so liberating and felt so weird. I felt almost naked. I went right out and bought coloured undies with stripes and cool colours like teal and purple. man did it ever feel good...especially in the summer time! 


   


Posted: 07 February 2016 07:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
Felix
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Try cutting out the masonic symbols and then wear them for your husband to see. 

   


Posted: 07 February 2016 07:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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Morethanmo
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Felix:
Try cutting out the masonic symbols and then wear them for your husband to see.
 
 LOL.
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Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
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Posted: 08 February 2016 07:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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Felix:
Try cutting out the masonic symbols and then wear them for your husband to see.
 
 Wouldn't that be considered a "wardrobe manfunction"?


   


Posted: 09 February 2016 03:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
antipsicótica
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Felix:
Try cutting out the masonic symbols and then wear them for your husband to see.
 
 LOL. Sadly I saw this post after throwing them.
 
I just grabbed a bag, put them in and threw them away.  It felt SO GOOD of finally getting rid of them.  
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Posted: 11 February 2016 03:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
Cagouillard
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Threw mine away two weeks ago. I have been out now for 20 months. My wife wears her temple slippers around the house now..... 

   


Posted: 11 February 2016 07:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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Zelph the White
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I threw out my G's about a year ago. It was awesome. Never looked back. But this does remind me that I have temple robes/apron stuff in a bag somewhere in my closet that I need to throw out. 

   


            
 
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Ripped off the last bandage. It hurts. This is a rant.  
Posted: 08 February 2016 07:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Sassycat
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It's been a LONG time since I was here. We left Utah years ago and have lived in relative peace since then. Having spent 15 years in the church I had many experiences, good and bad, and made what seemed to be good friends. When we moved all but one of those friendships vanished, a couple of xmas cards or a Facebook link were all that was left. But my best friend hung on. I realized from the beginning that was also one of those "assigned" friendships but tried to see past that. (Yea, we all suffer from some sort of cognitive dissonance.)
 
Over the years the friendship had been fairly one-sided. I helped her out numerous times with projects related to her job or her family. Granted I'm an independent sort, but even though I was often on my own having a husband who traveled for work, I never received any offers to reciprocate.
 
After moving we kept in contact. We live in a rural area and get mail through a PO box. Obviously my friend was charged with the task of getting a physical address so that the local ward could contact us. Her efforts became humorous after a while. Eventually they did find us through some other method of spying but the priesthood and missionaries were cut short in no uncertain terms by my husband. RS mailings seem to have now stopped too for the most part.
 
We received some horrible news after our recent mass shooting in California. A young man who had been our neighbor when he was a small boy was one of the victims. I was heartbroken and let out my sorrow and disgust in an email to my friend. Her response was shock at my "loss of faith".  In a reply message I tried to explain my feelings further about the state of our country these days. Obviously I went to far. I haven't received a reply and don't expect to. Given the pain I was in any true friend would have put aside LDS/FauxNews propaganda and actually cared a bit.
 
I knew that "friendship" was conditional but I find it more and more difficult to deal with anyone anymore. Our family is full of TeaParty bigots. Religious people infuriate me. The ignorance of our political situation is appalling. It's sort of sad to see that this site is still as busy as ever, but then thank-dog that it is.
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And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.”
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Posted: 08 February 2016 08:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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Sounds like it's time to find some new friends. Someone who isn't assigned to you. People you can talk with. It's important. A new adventure :)
 
 


   


Posted: 08 February 2016 09:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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Sassycat, I'm sorry to hear how that last assigned friend finally fell. It was, after all, a friendship based in Mormonism. Without the commonality of Mormonism the friendship finished withering. It sounds like you were hoping that she would be something different. She, too, was hoping that you'd be something different, Probably it's best now to let the Mormon chapter of your life be completely closed.
 
I'm sorry to hear about the young man who died in the mass shooting. It sounds like you and I probably share some similar political views, but I think that nearly everyone can agree that the loss is needless and tragic.
 
By the way, how is your life going these days?  Are you basically happy and experiencing a meaningful, self-directed life? (I always hope that people who leave LDS, Inc., get an extra dose of joy as a form of compensation.)


   


Posted: 08 February 2016 11:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie:
Sassycat, I'm sorry to hear how that last assigned friend finally fell. It was, after all, a friendship based in Mormonism. Without the commonality of Mormonism the friendship finished withering. It sounds like you were hoping that she would be something different. She, too, was hoping that you'd be something different, Probably it's best now to let the Mormon chapter of your life be completely closed.
 
I'm sorry to hear about the young man who died in the mass shooting. It sounds like you and I probably share some similar political views, but I think that nearly everyone can agree that the loss is needless and tragic.
 
By the way, how is your life going these days?  Are you basically happy and experiencing a meaningful, self-directed life? (I always hope that people who leave LDS, Inc., get an extra dose of joy as a form of compensation.)
 
Celestial Wedgie (love the name!) Thanks. Yes, it was a friendship that seemed to have more than assigned roles and I agree and now realize that was only my hope. Like all of my LDS friends she lives in fear of thinking outside the box and it's a shame. 
 
I feel free and have found great joy in just being myself. I was raised with no religion and always thought that I was missing something. Years of searching through doctrines and congregations have taught me that the only thing I was missing was confidence in myself. I don't need a God/Heavenly Father to lean on and if he does exist I have no doubt that I've done a good enough job of being a decent person that I will pass muster in the end. In dealing with people I would rather deal with an ethical moral atheist any day rather than someone fighting to stay in line because of a vengeful god waiting to dole out discipline.  
 
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And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.”
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Posted: 08 February 2016 02:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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Sassycat:
 
Celestial Wedgie (love the name!) Thanks. Yes, it was a friendship that seemed to have more than assigned roles and I agree and now realize that was only my hope. Like all of my LDS friends she lives in fear of thinking outside the box and it's a shame. 
 
I feel free and have found great joy in just being myself. I was raised with no religion and always thought that I was missing something. Years of searching through doctrines and congregations have taught me that the only thing I was missing was confidence in myself. I don't need a God/Heavenly Father to lean on and if he does exist I have no doubt that I've done a good enough job of being a decent person that I will pass muster in the end. In dealing with people I would rather deal with an ethical moral atheist any day rather than someone fighting to stay in line because of a vengeful god waiting to dole out discipline. 
Sassycat, the highlighted parts are my favorite. These are the plusses in life that boost the experience of being alive. Congratulations. And I agree about preferring an internally moral atheist over someone behaving only out of fear.
 
"I have found great joy in just being myself." Man, that's a great summary of living life well!
 


   


Posted: 08 February 2016 03:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Troubled Wife
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After being a natural homebody - and really not likeing traveling as much any more, I fully understand the hurt of loosing a friend. Even when it comes down to that friend was only assigned to you and only interested in being a friend under certain conditions.
But, So. Cal is a wonderful place, lots of things to do, and people are genuinely friendly and will be genuine friends, once they get out of their 'too busy with my own life' mode to meet you - like when a natural disaster happens.
Honestly, on one hand, I wish I were back there. There's a lot of stuff I miss.
In the mean time, I'm sorry for your hurt, and encourage to to rant when you feel the need!
 
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Posted: 08 February 2016 03:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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SassyCat,
 
It seems there are a lot of people who are feeling the same way.  Why can't we try reason, love and common sense and see what happens in our world.  Religion has not been the answer--seems to me anyway.
 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/07/opinion/sunday/sick-and-tired-of-god-bless-america.html
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 09 February 2016 04:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Wish the politicians would get the hint, that most folks aren't fundy christians or any other type of radical religion...they're just people who are finding their own path.
 
You, Sassycat are finding your own path, and now that you are free of the last vestiges of a friendship that couldn't hold anymore...you are free...free to become more mature and not co-dependent on someone else's ideas.
 
You're able to find your own.
 
And friends to match.
 
Hurray, it celebration time!!
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Posted: 24 January 2016 01:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
moronie-balonie
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Joined  2013-01-09
 
  
 
Someone called me recently and asked how to resign from the church.  I referred them to Richard Packham's site, but I thought that another thread for the newbies would be good.
 
My friend said that she sent in her resignation via e-mail, but now her bishop has called and wants to meet, and said that she has to sign some papers.  She didn't want to meet with him, so she called me to see if she had to in order to sign the papers.  I told her that she doesn't need to sign anything, or meet to discuss anything with anyone, and that she is out.  Whatever steps her bishop is doing is not legally required by her.  
 
Did anyone else's bishop tell them that they were required to sign papers?  I told her it was just a ruse to get her to come into his office.  
 
As a side note, she asked for suggestions for a catchy user name to use here.....
 
 
. Notsomerriemiss  
. Amen and Amen
. Won't Look Back
  
 
I'm not very clever making up monikers.  Your help would be appreciated. 


   


Posted: 24 January 2016 01:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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I resigned by e-mail to membership records in Salt Lake a few years back.  I hadn't attended in decades and had no idea who the local leaders were.  No local leaders ever contacted me and I don't recall having to sign anything.
 
Once you send in a resignation letter or e-mail, legally you are no longer a member.  However, that is not the same question as to whether an organization has the right to make sure an e-mailed request is actually from the member on the records.  That may be what the Bishop is trying to do with whatever the form is -- document that the e-mail request came from the actual member.  But I don't think that's a requirement handed down by Salt Lake (unless something has changed recently).
 
If it were me, I would phone (or write) the Bishop and tell him that my resignation was effective when I sent the e-mail to Salt Lake and that I am not required to meet with him.  I would also tell him that I expected him to honor my request and process my paperwork immediately.
 
Odds are, that would be the end of it. 
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Posted: 25 January 2016 12:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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I wondered whether she sent her initial email to the church offices or to her bishop. She might send another one to the member records department in Salt Lake and specify that she doesn't want contact with local leaders. And that she waives the 30 day waiting period. 

   


Posted: 25 January 2016 01:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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User name ideas...
 
Free at Last 
FreeThe Cureloms!
19th Wife of Zelph
 
 
 


   


Posted: 25 January 2016 03:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
Doggonit
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Completely Complete 
Nothing Left 2 Do
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Posted: 25 January 2016 03:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
peace out
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Mo-no-mo
Mo-know-more
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Posted: 25 January 2016 04:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise
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A lot of the group names that were suggested would make a great screen name.
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/42013/#620666
 
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Posted: 26 January 2016 07:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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Bow Your Head and Say Yes
 


   


Posted: 26 January 2016 09:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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  http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/41409/
 
This postmo thread has very helpful information within it. The link that Zeezrom provided is the email address that was useful in my 'Certificate of Graduation'.
 
As for names to use... how about :
 
Gospel Lite
Starting Over
Triumphant
Fact Defibrillated
Happy Beginning
Soveriegn Maiden
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Posted: 27 January 2016 05:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
moronie-balonie
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Joined  2013-01-09
 
  
 
My friend said that her bishop was insistent that she had to sign a paper, so she reluctantly agreed to meet with him.  She said that he was nice, and in no way confrontational.  He did have a copy of the letter she had e-mailed to SLC, and that is what he wanted her signature on.  
 
I thought that it was strange that he still wanted a signature even though they had communicated over the phone to confirm that it was indeed her.
 
Brad was right that the bishop only wanted to confirm that it was her.  
 
The name suggestions are good.  You guys are clever.  Thanks 


   


            
 
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Help with 12 minute video about dna. Need a rebuttal
by Strong Free & Thankful
Dedication Recommend Needed
by Denker
Mickelsen's "Dirty Linen"
by antipsicótica
Not Angry, A little confused, and a lot scared
by Winyan
Porn, Good or Bad?
by MishMagnet
Ghawd is anti-immigration?
by LostInParadise
The published journals of a gay apostate Mormon missionary
by CorbinBrodie
Morg and Utah politics
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St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward - Meetup - Sunday, February 21st, 10:00am at Harmons (Draper, UT) - ***New photo at bottom of thread***
by BITE ME
the temperature of your caffeine
by evil_archer
Revised Articles of Faith
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Do You Know Anyone Who Is Developing A Death Wish Because The Next Life Is So Wonderful?
by Strong Free & Thankful
Musings on the Holy Ghost
by Hank
What's in a Name?
by Denker
A New Reformation
by Lloyd Dobler
"It's not Stockholm Syndrome, I stay because The Spirit™ told me to!"
by Lloyd Dobler
Conspiracy Theories - Why Mormons Love Them So?
by Celestial Wedgie
G.A. accused of sexual assault (link)
by Elder OldDog
Are you in a codependent relationship?
by WinstonSmith
A blast from the "intellectual" past
by Strong Free & Thankful 

   http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/42038/