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Why Mormonism is attractive at least on a superficial level
Posted: 08 November 2015 09:53 PM [ Ignore ]
NotAnymore
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I served a mission, went to the temple, attended BYU (which I disliked very much) and eventually got out.
I did enjoy my mission but in part this was because I really enjoy helping others and serving in a poor area really fit my personality well. The only time on my mission I didn't enjoy was when I was in the mission offices dealing with the politics and egos that came with that calling. I loved being in the small towns in rural Mexico. For really the first time in my life I found myself but upon returning to BYU I had a huge WTF moment. At the time, I thought it was my fault as all missionaries go through a stage where they go from being missionary to normal human being again. But looking back almost 20 years I can say it was something much different.
Ironically and interestingly, I both had my conversion and what turned out to be my de-conversion to the LDS religion during my mission even though I wasn't aware of the latter having occured for some time after my mission. Serving a mission made me, for the first time in my life, really reflect and ponder life and religion.
I had been a depressed teenager in a very middle class Mormon family where, as a middle child, I received only a portion of my parent's attention. As a child I had been diagnosed with epilepsy and had for a number of years been on drugs that slowed everything down in order prevent seizures. And while the seizures stopped, the medications took their toll. I was an extremly shy, introverted teenager that studdered with very little self confidence and as I finished my senior year in high school had very little direction or momentum. No one expected much from me or pushed me to be better. My graduation from seminary was a farce and my overall interest in the church had waned simply due to my depression. And even though I only saved about $1000 (well short of my required half) my parents pushed me into serving a mission. My memory between graduating high school and pre-mission was that of having to work two jobs and feeling completely impotent about my life.
I have to say though serving a mission awakened something inside of me that I had never felt. Even though I struggled to learn Spanish, constantly was dealing with ingrown toenails and having to confront the realities of poverty in a 3rd world country, I found a very nice niche for myself. For the first time in my life, I had no fear. I spoke to everyone and proudly and defiantley shared the gospel to everyone I could. In the small towns I served in, everyone knew me, everyone said hello. I had the reputation among missionaries that no one wanted to be with me because I would work you like a mule. I was invited to dinners at the mayor's house and had private chats with Catholic priests and Evangelical preachers. If other missionaries needed a helping hand I was there to guide and motivate them. I was able to baptize the unbaptizeable. I convinced people to go back to school, to find the best in themselves, to leave the higher paying job working on the oil rig and teach at a local school in order to be home with the family, to leave the abusive husband, to sooth the aching heart of one who recently lost a loved one. I blessed the sick and cried with those that needed a shoulder. I truly understood Paul when he said he was a prisoner in Christ. I understood what he meant because I loved those with whom I came in contact. I felt enlightened and envigorated and, in a word, trascendent.
I came back home right before Christmas and enrolled at BYU for the winter semester. As I mentioned the transition was difficult. I ended up having my first girlfriend but my overall experience was very disappointing. It was a complete 180 from my mission. The question that kept buzzing through my brain was where was the evidence to support all the promises that I made to so many investigators and converts? I didn't see people with an elightened version of themselves or the world. I didn't see humility in the sense that people truly appreciate other human beings or worked to understand the problems of others. No, instead I saw pride and competition and an overwhelming pressure to conform socially.
It took me a divorce to my first wife to realize several years later that I didn't really believe in the church. For so long, I had tried to reconcile the teachings with membership with the old agage that the "church is perfect but its members are not" trumping my intuition. But eventually I realized that the leadership of the church were the ones perpetrating and allowing the weaknesses of the church to exist in the first place. The true adage is that it all starts and ends with those at the top.
The most important idea that I learned being a missionary was that of loving and understanding yourself. The importance and value of the individual was what rang loudest in what I taught to others and what resonated to me. Since then I have simply learned that human beings are complicated creatures and that a black and white worldview is simply unrealistic, even irresponsible but this is what the church teaches.
What makes the church attractive and why I converted to it as a missionary was that it gave all the answers - families are forever, we existed in the pre-existence, plan of salvation, ideas of worthiness and purity,etc... ultimately everthing was explained. We just simply had to strive for perfection and God would take care of the rest. It's this last part that is simply wrong and what causes so much hurt because like I said humankind is difficult. Being alive is wonderful and painful all at the same time. The uncertainty never ends but you live for the good days and get through the difficult ones.
Personally, I am trying to get back to where I was as a missionary. But my experience wasn't due to the church being true but rather me being true to myself. Luckily, I have learned that the Mormon church just gives a very superficial idea of what life truly is about. I have taken the good from it that I can, recognized the negative affects it had on me and have moved on. Life truly is beautiful but it's the imperfections that make the good days so sweet.
Posted: 09 November 2015 03:39 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Remember the phrase 'Just-Do-It' that the LDS tried swiping from Nike? They got years and years of use out of that slogan without paying one cent in royalties.
The volunteer effort pushed by Mormonism today is called http://www.justserve.org but it's a new spin on LDS missionary efforts.
If you maybe need kombucha tea and coffee and specific carbohydrates in your diet to further control seizures, you might be interested in viewing what Elaine Gottschall has to say on the matter.
Dumb dumb Mormon days might be numbered.
http://www.ldsliving.com/Little-Known-Church-Website-Helps-Service-Projects-Find-Volunteers/s/79324
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Posted: 09 November 2015 06:20 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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WinstonSmith
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NotAnymore:
<snip>
What makes the church attractive and why I converted to it as a missionary was that it gave all the answers - families are forever, we existed in the pre-existence, plan of salvation, ideas of worthiness and purity,etc... ultimately everthing was explained.
<snip>
NotAnymore,
Thanks for sharing---your story resonates with me on so many levels. I wish you lived close by (maybe you do), I would love to sit down and talk over coffee, hot chocholate or what ever you drink.
[ ] - For most people the thought of their own existence ending is a powerful and enableing force. Institutions prey on the human fear of mortality---so mantras like "families are forever" become huge marketing themes. Think about the lengths tbms will go to be with their families for ever. It is every thing we "bitch" about on the website.
We "bitch" about it because, we are now aware of the exploytation against us, our families and other tbms---IMO - it is unethical and immoral what the church does. Churches really should come with "warning lables"
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Posted: 09 November 2015 07:23 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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josephs myth
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WinstonSmith: ... --so mantras like "families are forever" become huge marketing themes. Think about the lengths tbms will go to be with their families for ever. It is every thing we "bitch" about on the website. We "bitch" about it because, we are now aware of the exploytation against us, our families and other tbms---IMO - it is unethical and immoral what the church does. Churches really should come with "warning lables"
Hazardous LDS Warning Label
Holding Mormon families hostage is probably the biggest one.
LDS Koolaid Distilleries
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Posted: 09 November 2015 09:42 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Celestial Wedgie
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NotAnymore:
[snip]
Personally, I am trying to get back to where I was as a missionary. But my experience wasn't due to the church being true but rather me being true to myself. Luckily, I have learned that the Mormon church just gives a very superficial idea of what life truly is about. I have taken the good from it that I can, recognized the negative affects it had on me and have moved on. Life truly is beautiful but it's the imperfections that make the good days so sweet.
NotAnymore, I appreciate you sharing your story and I especially like this last paragraph. The recent stir from the LDS Handbook 1 highlights the difference between the healing that you found in being true to yourself and the compliance that comes from being true to the church. Yielding to the power of the institution can certainly reduce the stressors in a person's life, but it pales when compared to the relief of being authentic to oneself. It's interesting that there was a time in your life when being true to self and living as a missionary overlapped nicely. It was having these two roles separated that allowed you to see which variable--true to self or true to church--brought the peace.
Posted: 13 November 2015 04:19 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
NotAnymore
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WinstonSmith:
NotAnymore:
<snip>
What makes the church attractive and why I converted to it as a missionary was that it gave all the answers - families are forever, we existed in the pre-existence, plan of salvation, ideas of worthiness and purity,etc... ultimately everthing was explained.
<snip>
NotAnymore,
Thanks for sharing---your story resonates with me on so many levels. I wish you lived close by (maybe you do), I would love to sit down and talk over coffee, hot chocholate or what ever you drink.
[ ] - For most people the thought of their own existence ending is a powerful and enableing force. Institutions prey on the human fear of mortality---so mantras like "families are forever" become huge marketing themes. Think about the lengths tbms will go to be with their families for ever. It is every thing we "bitch" about on the website.
We "bitch" about it because, we are now aware of the exploytation against us, our families and other tbms---IMO - it is unethical and immoral what the church does. Churches really should come with "warning lables"
WM, thank you for the comments. One thing that stood out to me when PBS did the documentary about the church a few years back was their conclusion about how the church made so many more promises than any other religion. Without saying it, I think what they were hinting at was if it's too good to be true, then it's probably not true.
If you study Smith's history and MO, it's not a jump at all to say that he and his cronies simply invented a religion that promised more than any of the other religions. They then invented more and more dogma to add fuel to their fire but like all stories it took time for it to develop which is why you have 3 conflicting versions of the first vision and a whole bunch of other weird teachings like creatures living on the moon, etc, etc. Over time church leaders learned that it wasn't helpful to keep inventing new dogma but instead cannonized the original teachings that were acceptable and revised as much as possible to create a believable history.
Unfortunately, the Internet had to come along and ruin their philosophy making it much harder to portray Smith as if he were some noble character out of Jane Austen novel. Anyone that has eyes to see and a brain to think can connect the dots. I don't think Joseph Smith had a single idea that was even his own. I think he simply poached ideas the same way he did with the temple ceremony from the masons. He was obvioulsy a very charismatic and believable person but it's telling that almost all of his acquaintances eventually left the church as well as their relationship with him. And his being murdered was simply the result from all of the chaos that he created through his own failings and deceptions.
Mormonism is a religion that makes promises it can't keep because ultimately the church exists to promote itself and not the exaltion of the individual as it claims. If such a progression were to truly exist then the focus would be not on strict, arbitrary obedience tests but rather on the emphasis of the individual to love themself and then love others.
BTW, feel free to BM me if you wish to talk in private.
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2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
Financial Report for 2009
Twin Falls Newspaper Article
Twin Falls Billboard
Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
[Southern Utah Pos...]
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Musings on the Holy Ghost
Posted: 15 February 2016 02:52 PM [ Ignore ]
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OK, I'm musing on a full stomach, after eating far too much food with onions, so this could get dangerous...
But The Spirit™ is just that, a spirit. A ghost, a spook, a specter, a phantom, a revenant...
We're told that mormon God created everything and everyone, including Ol' Scratch as well as mormon Jesus H. Christ himself. It therefore stands to reason that if mormon God created these two, and all of us, he must have created the holy ghost as well. Now this ghost must needs be a righteous ghost, otherwise he wouldn't be rolling with mormon God, now would he? So this means the celestial spook kept his first estate, and agreed with big brother Jesus' plan for all of us. Plus, he didn't sit on the fence, he was right there with the valiant ones, so he's probably white and delightsome - or would be white, if he had a body. The rest of us, we get to have bodies! Hooray! That's all part of the plan*. But what about Casper? When does he get his body?
I can't find any mormon theology on this point. Perhaps this knowledge isn't necessary for my salvation, but if I were the saintly specter, I'd be pretty pissed off that all these people were down on earth with bodies, enjoying themselves and all the carnal pleasures that come with having a body, and I had been relegated to key-finding duty.
But no, not one word from the faithful phantom. Maybe he really is a pussy.
*Not to be confused with the Osmonds album of the same name!
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Posted: 16 February 2016 07:47 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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The teaching that I recall is that after the final battle and everyone is judged and on the train bound to their earned kingdom (or outer darkness), only then will the spirit get a body. A new, perfect model, of course.
The post got me thinking though, the whole Plan of Salvation was meant to teach everyone misery, and in turn learning joy. For man is so that he may have joy...
So, I picture everyone in the pre-existance as having little emotion. After all, they didn't know good from bad (yet still somehow managed to have a big war and how afraid of war can you be if you can't die or feel pain?). Anyway, how can the spirit be a good guide to humans when he himself has not had the experience of learning right from wrong? Jesus supposedly got his first hand experience with his Garden of Gethsemene story, but no such stories of the spirit. How can the spirit give us a burning in the bossom, if he never experienced it himself?
Can the spirit just be an emotional construct we give authority to so that we can feel better/justified about our thoughts/decisions? <sarcasm>
Posted: 16 February 2016 07:53 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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I think that's mormonism in a nutshell - give your authority away to others.
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Posted: 16 February 2016 10:46 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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I always got the implication that like Jebus the OG... I mean HG was so righteous in the pre-existence that he didn't need to be tested here so he just gets a perfect body and some wives after everything is said and done. This throws a huge problem into the plan though. I mean it it is possible to develop properly and earn super vip heaven without a mortal life then the "why are we here" question they ask remains unanswered because there would be no point to a mortal existence.
Posted: 16 February 2016 11:13 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Well of course he's pissed off.
You can tell by the way he leads one person away from their destruction while another is led right into it.
Passive Agressive.
Like when I had 3 years of promptings to have another baby and then miscarried that baby and due to complications was barren ever after.
After I stopped giving priority to these feelings I found I'm still running about 50% - same as I was before.
Now I subscribe to the school of Shit Happens.
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Posted: 16 February 2016 11:49 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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MishMagnet:
Well of course he's pissed off.
You can tell by the way he leads one person away from their destruction while another is led right into it.
Passive Agressive.
Like when I had 3 years of promptings to have another baby and then miscarried that baby and due to complications was barren ever after.
After I stopped giving priority to these feelings I found I'm still running about 50% - same as I was before.
Now I subscribe to the school of Shit Happens.
We always read about the faith-promoting stuff in the Ensign. We NEVER hear about the people who heeded the promptings of The Spirit™ and ended up worse off than before. One of the contributors here (can't remember who) said that she/he had been evicted on four separate occasions because she/he had put tithing before rent. That shit never makes it into the Ensign. (Unless the evictions led to a monumental job which allowed them to pay more tithing than ever before.) But really - the HG gets it wrong an awful lot of the time.
No shame in that. Sign me up.
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Posted: 18 February 2016 11:25 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Matter Unorganized:
OK, I'm musing on a full stomach, after eating far too much food with onions, so this could get dangerous...
But The Spirit™ is just that, a spirit. A ghost, a spook, a specter, a phantom, a revenant...
We're told that mormon God created everything and everyone, including Ol' Scratch as well as mormon Jesus H. Christ himself. It therefore stands to reason that if mormon God created these two, and all of us, he must have created the holy ghost as well. Now this ghost must needs be a righteous ghost, otherwise he wouldn't be rolling with mormon God, now would he? So this means the celestial spook kept his first estate, and agreed with big brother Jesus' plan for all of us. Plus, he didn't sit on the fence, he was right there with the valiant ones, so he's probably white and delightsome - or would be white, if he had a body. The rest of us, we get to have bodies! Hooray! That's all part of the plan*. But what about Casper? When does he get his body?
I can't find any mormon theology on this point. Perhaps this knowledge isn't necessary for my salvation, but if I were the saintly specter, I'd be pretty pissed off that all these people were down on earth with bodies, enjoying themselves and all the carnal pleasures that come with having a body, and I had been relegated to key-finding duty.
But no, not one word from the faithful phantom. Maybe he really is a pussy.
*Not to be confused with the Osmonds album of the same name!
MU you know I'm not passing up a chance to talk about the stupid holy ghost!
Yeah, I don't know if there is actually any hard doctrine regarding that dude. I want to say that I heard he would get a body after the resurrection.....but like you say, where is the fun in having a body if you can't sin with it? Clearly, the HG is missing out. He can see but he can't touch. Dude can't smell either. Can he hear?
I guess if he could not smell then he could not hear either. But he's got to be able to hear because apprantly, when I say F#ck, he freaks out and leaves me. How does he know I said F#ck if he can't hear me? How does he see with no eyes? Oh, that's right, the same way the 3 witnesses saw the plates, with their spiritual eyes......cue Lloyd eye roll.
And how the hell is he everywhere at the same god damn time?
MU, I'm getting angry all over again thinking about this crap. I really do hate the whole idea of the holy ghost. I hate how the church uses something INVISIBLE to control people. Really, it's one of the great cons of all time.......and yeah, the holy ghost is a pussy. big time.
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Vindicated, I am selfish, I am wrong, I am right
I swear I’m right, swear I knew it all along
And I am flawed
but I am cleaning up so well
I am seeing in me now the things you swore, you saw yourself
Vindicated
Dashboard Confessionalhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8InUTSWWDVk
Posted: 18 February 2016 11:39 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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4thNephite
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Lloyd Dobler:
Matter Unorganized:
OK, I'm musing on a full stomach, after eating far too much food with onions, so this could get dangerous...
But The Spirit™ is just that, a spirit. A ghost, a spook, a specter, a phantom, a revenant...
We're told that mormon God created everything and everyone, including Ol' Scratch as well as mormon Jesus H. Christ himself. It therefore stands to reason that if mormon God created these two, and all of us, he must have created the holy ghost as well. Now this ghost must needs be a righteous ghost, otherwise he wouldn't be rolling with mormon God, now would he? So this means the celestial spook kept his first estate, and agreed with big brother Jesus' plan for all of us. Plus, he didn't sit on the fence, he was right there with the valiant ones, so he's probably white and delightsome - or would be white, if he had a body. The rest of us, we get to have bodies! Hooray! That's all part of the plan*. But what about Casper? When does he get his body?
I can't find any mormon theology on this point. Perhaps this knowledge isn't necessary for my salvation, but if I were the saintly specter, I'd be pretty pissed off that all these people were down on earth with bodies, enjoying themselves and all the carnal pleasures that come with having a body, and I had been relegated to key-finding duty.
But no, not one word from the faithful phantom. Maybe he really is a pussy.
*Not to be confused with the Osmonds album of the same name!
MU you know I'm not passing up a chance to talk about the stupid holy ghost!
Yeah, I don't know if there is actually any hard doctrine regarding that dude. I want to say that I heard he would get a body after the resurrection.....but like you say, where is the fun in having a body if you can't sin with it? Clearly, the HG is missing out. He can see but he can't touch. Dude can't smell either. Can he hear?
I guess if he could not smell then he could not hear either. But he's got to be able to hear because apprantly, when I say F#ck, he freaks out and leaves me. How does he know I said F#ck if he can't hear me? How does he see with no eyes? Oh, that's right, the same way the 3 witnesses saw the plates, with their spiritual eyes......cue Lloyd eye roll.
And how the hell is he everywhere at the same god damn time?
MU, I'm getting angry all over again thinking about this crap. I really do hate the whole idea of the holy ghost. I hate how the church uses something INVISIBLE to control people. Really, it's one of the great cons of all time.......and yeah, the holy ghost is a pussy. big time.
Have you ever heard the folk doctrine that the HG is not a specific person, but rather an office that has been held by multiple people over the years? Seems like I remember hearing my dad discuss speculation that Joseph Smith was one of the previous "office holders", and then of course when he came to earth to get his physical body someone else had to be called.....
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“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.”—Heber C Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, Page 32
Posted: 18 February 2016 11:48 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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thNephite:
Lloyd Dobler:
Matter Unorganized:
OK, I'm musing on a full stomach, after eating far too much food with onions, so this could get dangerous...
But The Spirit™ is just that, a spirit. A ghost, a spook, a specter, a phantom, a revenant...
We're told that mormon God created everything and everyone, including Ol' Scratch as well as mormon Jesus H. Christ himself. It therefore stands to reason that if mormon God created these two, and all of us, he must have created the holy ghost as well. Now this ghost must needs be a righteous ghost, otherwise he wouldn't be rolling with mormon God, now would he? So this means the celestial spook kept his first estate, and agreed with big brother Jesus' plan for all of us. Plus, he didn't sit on the fence, he was right there with the valiant ones, so he's probably white and delightsome - or would be white, if he had a body. The rest of us, we get to have bodies! Hooray! That's all part of the plan*. But what about Casper? When does he get his body?
I can't find any mormon theology on this point. Perhaps this knowledge isn't necessary for my salvation, but if I were the saintly specter, I'd be pretty pissed off that all these people were down on earth with bodies, enjoying themselves and all the carnal pleasures that come with having a body, and I had been relegated to key-finding duty.
But no, not one word from the faithful phantom. Maybe he really is a pussy.
*Not to be confused with the Osmonds album of the same name!
MU you know I'm not passing up a chance to talk about the stupid holy ghost!
Yeah, I don't know if there is actually any hard doctrine regarding that dude. I want to say that I heard he would get a body after the resurrection.....but like you say, where is the fun in having a body if you can't sin with it? Clearly, the HG is missing out. He can see but he can't touch. Dude can't smell either. Can he hear?
I guess if he could not smell then he could not hear either. But he's got to be able to hear because apprantly, when I say F#ck, he freaks out and leaves me. How does he know I said F#ck if he can't hear me? How does he see with no eyes? Oh, that's right, the same way the 3 witnesses saw the plates, with their spiritual eyes......cue Lloyd eye roll.
And how the hell is he everywhere at the same god damn time?
MU, I'm getting angry all over again thinking about this crap. I really do hate the whole idea of the holy ghost. I hate how the church uses something INVISIBLE to control people. Really, it's one of the great cons of all time.......and yeah, the holy ghost is a pussy. big time.
Have you ever heard the folk doctrine that the HG is not a specific person, but rather an office that has been held by multiple people over the years? Seems like I remember hearing my dad discuss speculation that Joseph Smith was one of the previous "office holders", and then of course when he came to earth to get his physical body someone else had to be called.....
Holy shit, I'd never heard that one before. But it makes sense, in a mormon kind of way. I mean Adam was God, and Jesus was God in the old testament, and who knows who else was God, and God was once a man so he must have had a God, so it stands to reason that the whole freakin' godhead runs on a revolving door policy. Why not?
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Posted: 18 February 2016 11:51 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Lloyd Dobler
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Matter Unorganized:
thNephite:
Lloyd Dobler:
Matter Unorganized:
OK, I'm musing on a full stomach, after eating far too much food with onions, so this could get dangerous...
But The Spirit™ is just that, a spirit. A ghost, a spook, a specter, a phantom, a revenant...
We're told that mormon God created everything and everyone, including Ol' Scratch as well as mormon Jesus H. Christ himself. It therefore stands to reason that if mormon God created these two, and all of us, he must have created the holy ghost as well. Now this ghost must needs be a righteous ghost, otherwise he wouldn't be rolling with mormon God, now would he? So this means the celestial spook kept his first estate, and agreed with big brother Jesus' plan for all of us. Plus, he didn't sit on the fence, he was right there with the valiant ones, so he's probably white and delightsome - or would be white, if he had a body. The rest of us, we get to have bodies! Hooray! That's all part of the plan*. But what about Casper? When does he get his body?
I can't find any mormon theology on this point. Perhaps this knowledge isn't necessary for my salvation, but if I were the saintly specter, I'd be pretty pissed off that all these people were down on earth with bodies, enjoying themselves and all the carnal pleasures that come with having a body, and I had been relegated to key-finding duty.
But no, not one word from the faithful phantom. Maybe he really is a pussy.
*Not to be confused with the Osmonds album of the same name!
MU you know I'm not passing up a chance to talk about the stupid holy ghost!
Yeah, I don't know if there is actually any hard doctrine regarding that dude. I want to say that I heard he would get a body after the resurrection.....but like you say, where is the fun in having a body if you can't sin with it? Clearly, the HG is missing out. He can see but he can't touch. Dude can't smell either. Can he hear?
I guess if he could not smell then he could not hear either. But he's got to be able to hear because apprantly, when I say F#ck, he freaks out and leaves me. How does he know I said F#ck if he can't hear me? How does he see with no eyes? Oh, that's right, the same way the 3 witnesses saw the plates, with their spiritual eyes......cue Lloyd eye roll.
And how the hell is he everywhere at the same god damn time?
MU, I'm getting angry all over again thinking about this crap. I really do hate the whole idea of the holy ghost. I hate how the church uses something INVISIBLE to control people. Really, it's one of the great cons of all time.......and yeah, the holy ghost is a pussy. big time.
Have you ever heard the folk doctrine that the HG is not a specific person, but rather an office that has been held by multiple people over the years? Seems like I remember hearing my dad discuss speculation that Joseph Smith was one of the previous "office holders", and then of course when he came to earth to get his physical body someone else had to be called.....
Holy shit, I'd never heard that one before. But it makes sense, in a mormon kind of way. I mean Adam was God, and Jesus was God in the old testament, and who knows who else was God, and God was once a man so he must have had a God, so it stands to reason that the whole freakin' godhead runs on a revolving door policy. Why not?
Exactly. It makes perfect sense. I would think that the HG then would be the man who would be the head of the next dispensation.
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Vindicated, I am selfish, I am wrong, I am right
I swear I’m right, swear I knew it all along
And I am flawed
but I am cleaning up so well
I am seeing in me now the things you swore, you saw yourself
Vindicated
Dashboard Confessionalhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8InUTSWWDVk
Posted: 18 February 2016 02:27 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
Free2Live
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Now I know why I never married. It isn't real. Chased an effigy of pussy and thus no Holy Ghost-alingus.
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.
Posted: 19 February 2016 05:42 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
Hank
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quietlydifferent:
I always got the implication that like Jebus the OG... I mean HG was so righteous in the pre-existence that he didn't need to be tested here so he just gets a perfect body and some wives after everything is said and done. This throws a huge problem into the plan though. I mean it it is possible to develop properly and earn super vip heaven without a mortal life then the "why are we here" question they ask remains unanswered because there would be no point to a mortal existence.
That's an interesting thought. HG was so righteous that he didn't need to be tested here. But....but...Jesus was tested...several times...fasting 40 days/hangin' with Satan, Garden of Gethsamane, wanting to avoid the cross. So...does that mean that the HG is/was more righteous that Jesus?!
That concept just stacked on some fresh manure on the pile of horseshit that is the LDS church.
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Do You Know Anyone Who Is Developing A Death Wish Because The Next Life Is So Wonderful?
Posted: 12 February 2016 06:51 PM [ Ignore ]
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Just spoke with a TBM sister who told me she is not sure how long she wants to live as the next life will be so much better than this one. This is not the first time she has expressed this. Her youngest just left the nest. She is financially comfortable, healthy, has a husband she loves--what the heck? Told her this is not OK! Had a TBM husband who had the same attitude, but it was pushed by toxic guilt syndrome. He did die--in his thrities. Dangerous mind-set--if you ask me. Any experiences?
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 13 February 2016 08:31 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Morethanmo
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I had that same wish for many years while I was sick. I prayed every night to die.
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__________________________________________
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
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Posted: 13 February 2016 09:11 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Morethanmo:
I had that same wish for many years while I was sick. I prayed every night to die.
Given the circumstances, your reaction makes sense.
So I wonder what's up with the OP's TBM sister? If she has a full, rich, blessed life, then she is being freakin' greedy, wishing she could go on to experience even more marvels in mormon heaven, which if she's been paying attention in Sunday School, is just Paradise, where good mormons stack up in a holding pattern, waiting for resurrection and the Glory that will be mormon heaven.
I wonder what she imagines is going on in Paradise right now that she's missing out on?
"Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn!" about paradise and the next life. I think she's a poseur, trying to 'prove' how strong her belief is. And you can tell her I said so!
My name is Elder OldDog, and I'm an anti-mormonist...
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Posted: 13 February 2016 09:57 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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LostInParadise
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Doctrinally supported suicidal thoughts...
When I was 9 or 10, and for many years after, I often wished I'd killed myself before reaching the "age of accountability", because I "knew" that I'd have skipped all the woes of mortal life and earned the CK by default, because of my innocence. It felt like a lost opportunity.
Even after that, I sometimes considered the fact that even the TK (the obvious destination for suicide victims, right?) was a valid option, since it's unimaginably better than this life. But I wasn't sure I wanted to get there via hell AKA spirit prison.
This is the first time I've admitted this. Just between me and my 10,000 closest friends. ;)
And it sounds just a little crazy, even to me.
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Posted: 13 February 2016 12:26 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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Morethanmo, So sorry you were that ill. I hope and assume you are all better. Life is precious and we can become healthier.
Elder OldDog, Those are some interesting and unexpected takes. Of course, I should not be surprised as you come up with some good stuff. I think she is referring to that scripture that LostinParadise writes of--lying Jo Smith, when he said if we could see the TK, we would be committing suicide to get there. What a hodge podge of teachings. Uppers, downers--they have them all and on the same subject. When I feel the time is right--I will tell her what you said. Thanks!
Edited to Add: And when I tell her what you said, I plan to tell her she might want to stick around a while and build up some good karma, considering she has spent her life serving the beast, as in the "Mark of the Beast." Is is what I really think. Have to wait until I am with her in person or she will hang up on me. Sigh.
LostinParadise, I don't find this odd--considering their teachings on the subject. I wonder if a lot of mormons end up with death wishes somewhere along the way. I know my TBM husband, who died in his thirties, had that death wish as a way of being forgiven of a sexual sin right after his mission. So many things are destructive and dangerous about mormonism. That is why I started the thread as I have a feeling this happens a lot. It reminds me of the people in Jonestown, who willingly drank the poison--looking forward to an immediate heaven. Cults. I have been out for around 10 years now and my understanding of the damage the church does is still peeling off in layers--like an onion. I keep discovering ways the church hurts people that I had never considered. Thanks for sharing! I am curious about this. I am thinking that the church has broken us all. Some of us know it--some don't.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 13 February 2016 05:28 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Winyan
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LostInParadise:
Doctrinally supported suicidal thoughts...
When I was 9 or 10, and for many years after, I often wished I'd killed myself before reaching the "age of accountability", because I "knew" that I'd have skipped all the woes of mortal life and earned the CK by default, because of my innocence. It felt like a lost opportunity.
Even after that, I sometimes considered the fact that even the TK (the obvious destination for suicide victims, right?) was a valid option, since it's unimaginably better than this life. But I wasn't sure I wanted to get there via hell AKA spirit prison.
This is the first time I've admitted this. Just between me and my 10,000 closest friends. ;)
And it sounds just a little crazy, even to me.
It doesn't sound crazy under the circumstances you were in. The mormon guilt programming, and the feeling that you can never be good enough. It can paralyze people and literally ruin lives. Takes a while to get rid of that kind of thinking. But you're free now.
Posted: 13 February 2016 07:43 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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MTMHubs
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Strong Free & Thankful:
Morethanmo, So sorry you were that ill. I hope and assume you are all better. Life is precious and we can become healthier.
It's been a bit of a battle to get her well again, but I think we are almost in the clear. The biggest problem she encountered for years was a parade of LDS doctors telling her that her symptoms were fake and made up to get attention. What she has is true Celiac disease (shared with permission). Despite the diagnosis finally coming out, those around her seemed to be offended at the "inconvenience" of the needed diet changes and contamination problems of that illness. She was often forced to eat food that made her sick to appease the TBM social conventions. I had to become her personal health advocate, and at times get rather hostile with people to really ram home the concept that she wasn't just another "upstart female troublemaker".
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My primary defenses against the LDS are snark and naivete
“Now show me on the doll where the Spirit touched you”
Posted: 13 February 2016 08:26 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Elder OldDog
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Really great humor catches you by surprise as it delights you. Thanks for this:
“Now show me on the doll where the Spirit touched you”
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Posted: 14 February 2016 08:34 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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MTMHubs:
Strong Free & Thankful:
Morethanmo, So sorry you were that ill. I hope and assume you are all better. Life is precious and we can become healthier.
It's been a bit of a battle to get her well again, but I think we are almost in the clear. The biggest problem she encountered for years was a parade of LDS doctors telling her that her symptoms were fake and made up to get attention. What she has is true Celiac disease (shared with permission). Despite the diagnosis finally coming out, those around her seemed to be offended at the "inconvenience" of the needed diet changes and contamination problems of that illness. She was often forced to eat food that made her sick to appease the TBM social conventions. I had to become her personal health advocate, and at times get rather hostile with people to really ram home the concept that she wasn't just another "upstart female troublemaker".
I am so happy she is on the way to health! I almost died from gut issues but was lucky enough to find a great doctor who knew what was wrong and how to fix me. For sure, a huge weak point in mormonism is the W of W and thinking if other "righteous" people are eating the standard American diet and a lot of sugar as well as wheat (storage of the gods--right?) then this food must be OK or our profits would have told us. Lucky her that you were on her side!!!
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 18 February 2016 06:57 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
former victim
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If the so called hereafter is so wonderful, as claimed, why aren't any of the 'fossil 15' going there right now? I mean, drop what you're doing and go right NOW. What's stopping them from doing that?
Could it be that they need an Oregon State Trooper to assist them, like LaVoy "tarp man" Finicum ended up with?
Posted: 18 February 2016 07:22 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
Hank
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former victim:
If the so called hereafter is so wonderful, as claimed, why aren't any of the 'fossil 15' going there right now? I mean, drop what you're doing and go right NOW. What's stopping them from doing that?
Could it be that they need an Oregon State Trooper to assist them, like LaVoy "tarp man" Finicum ended up with?
JS said that if people could see even the lowest kingdom, they would be killing themselves to get in. Problem is, killing yourself is murder, the worst sin of all, so outer darkness would be the everlasting home not the telestial kingdom, which would then defeat the reason for killing ones self. So, you have to wait 'til your time is up.
If I believed this, I would help the natural death process along with cheesburgers, steak subs, chicken wings, brownies, etc. Hey, maybe that's why these things are exempted from the modern interpretation of the WoW. (Not likely).
Posted: 19 February 2016 06:10 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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I wonder if my sister could be suffering from the depression of a life that has been sacrificed to the morg. Here she is, children raised, she and her husband vist the kids but sis complained the kids have little time for them. Yes--they give their free time to the church as well. Other than the church, her husband and kids--she doesn't have anything in her life to feel passionate about. Oh there is visiting teaching and her calling of course. I would be feeling life was about over at this point as well--if that was my life. For me, having a little fun is just not enough. I need causes to be passionate about. I have many hopes, dreams, causes to make the world a better place that I fight for. I love that I get to choose! I think my sister would feel guilty. The lawrd needs her time.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
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Poll
Has sex changed for you since leaving the Morg?
Nothing has changed and I don’t want it to. Have always been traditional, am happy with it. 6
Nothing has changed but I am curious and somewhat open to the idea of something different, either occasionally or perman 2
Nothing has changed. Kinky then, kinky now. 5
Things have changed. No longer interested in sex. 0
Things have changed. Swinging? Yes please. 0
Things have changed. BDSM or D/s are in play. 1
Things have changed. Polyamory r us. 0
Things have changed. My partner has no interest in me sexually now. 0
Things have changed and I am now involved in activities so exotic they defy the limits of this poll. 1
Things have changed and I now engage in things that are crazy and sinful to me but dead boring and normal to most of the 1
What is sex 2
Total Votes: 18 You must be a logged-in member to vote
Eeek sex sex sex
Posted: 10 February 2016 06:33 PM [ Ignore ]
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jellybean.studio
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This is a poll for those who have left the Morg, whether officially or unofficially, in body, heart, mind or spirit. I could fill this whole post with thoughts about Mormonism's negative bias toward healthy sex but I'm just going to skip all that and gi for the juicy stuff you were hoping to find... because it's a poll!!!! Since exiting Mormonism, has your attitude toward sexual activity changed? Because I'm bold, and willing to ask. Have at it.
I know the poll isn't perfect. It has limits.
Edit: Crap! Poll no worky...I think... hard to tell on mobile. And can't find delete button. Uhm.... well, good luck.... I think this be a dead post.
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Posted: 10 February 2016 07:27 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
free rosko
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Hell Mary, for I have sinned, oh Jesus have I sinned. I am living with a woman now and I'm not married to her. We are happy as clams, but according to the tenants of the mighty morg, we are comminting a dreadful sin.
When I once considered myself a True Blue Mormon I would never have thought I would be in this position. But, now that I have stepped away, I am okay with it and have never been happier.
If you want juicy details, we will need some Patron and limes.
Posted: 10 February 2016 08:23 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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WinstonSmith
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I voted for the first option, however I was not sure your definition of kinky? Lingerie, Dice, Board Games, Flavored Lubercants is not kinky by my definition.
The only thing that changed after I announced my 'faith transition' is that the emotional connection was not always as easy to achieve as it was before.
One thing that has changed in my mind (bigger than just church issues); I would not marry again in terms of religious authority or state sponsored marriage contracts. My cohabitation or sexual relationship with a woman is none of their business. If I found love again, I would be open to having a matromonial ceremony with family and close friends---but again not under the authority of state nor religion. Just two persons making personal commitments to each other.
This is all hypothetical since I am currently happily married.
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“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” -Marcus Aurelius
Posted: 10 February 2016 10:23 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
Free2Live
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Is there a category for finally had sex? Polyamorous inclinations to try to help make UP for the decades of DOWN time. If only. lol Slowly slinking back into a box of wishful dreaming. I missed the bus ride to sexual heaven. The morg took my prime. I didn't cast a poll vote. The change is that I am happy to not have to die a virgin.
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.
Posted: 11 February 2016 12:57 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Celestial Wedgie
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I voted for traditional, which I am, but my life now includes much more sexual intimacy than it ever did during my marriage to a TBM woman. My sex life is more loving, more fulfilling, and less tormented by guilt. Sex will probably always be problematic for me: I was raised, LDS, after all, and my endocrine system was intact. But sex is now way less bad. Being in my late 50's probably helps, now that I think about it. I recall during the closing years of my marriage how I just wished to have no sex drive at all. Back then libido created far more pain and rejection than it ever created joy or love.
Posted: 11 February 2016 03:09 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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evil_archer
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Nothing changed for me, as I refused to be guilted for being a normal, sexual human being. I've always been traditional in that I know I'm heterosexual, and sex for me is best when in a committed relationship.
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I’m proud to be a B.I.T.C.H (Being In Total Control of Herself)
Posted: 11 February 2016 06:46 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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FreeLive:
Is there a category for finally had sex? Polyamorous inclinations to try to help make UP for the decades of DOWN time. If only. lol Slowly slinking back into a box of wishful dreaming. I missed the bus ride to sexual heaven. The morg took my prime. I didn't cast a poll vote. The change is that I am happy to not have to die a virgin.
"The change is that I am happy to not have to die a virgin."
I wonder if you could sue them for this? Oh, do they ever deserve it!!!
Eat really, really healthy & exercise (brisk walking will do) & find a bio-identical hormone natural Dr. At the least, Maca & caynne pepper capsules, & dark chocolate. Don't let those vultures get away with this! Think of all the TBM sisters who never married and will die virgins. Stupid soul-eating cult!
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 11 February 2016 07:46 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Zelph the White
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I think my sexuality is the thing the church f***ed up the most. It's the thing I'm the most bitter about. My home ward was so focused on the Law of Chastity that I spent my teens and twenties being like Joseph in Egypt and running from all things sexual.
I wasted my sexual prime too. I had several opportunites in high school but refrained from even the slightest sexual activity out of fear of the consequences. Especially the fear of what would happen if I did something and my family found out.
During my mission I felt suicidal because I couldn't stop having "dirty" thoughts about attractive girls I taught or knew. Oh man, that one time tracting when a woman answered the door naked and didn't think we could see her through the security door. But we saw her big time. Boing! Then feeling suicidal because I couldn't seem to stop occasionally masturbating.
In my later twenties, I actively avoided dating and broke up with some girlfriends because I had viewed porn and/or masturbated too recently. And I knew that as long as that was a current problem, I could never date them "cleanly".
At age 30, a girl I dated for a year and a half broke it off with me because she found out from my "friend" that I had looked at porn in the past. Just like that. I was going to ask her to marry me and she just threw me in a dumpster for that. I hadn't even seen any porn or had any activity beyond a nocturnal emission that entire time.
After joining the 31+ singles ward I just assumed I would never marry and therefore never have intercourse. And being single in the afterlife I would become a eunuch servant to my exalted family.
I think every single thing the church taught me about sex is completely wrong and that misinformation caused me to have a lot of false expectations. Thanks for nothing. And the irony to me now is that compared to Brother Joseph, I've been a saint, but god hasn't seen fit to bless me for it one bit.
I remain a virgin to this day and much like George Costanza "I cannot envison any circumstance in which i'll ever have the opportunity to have sex."
Forgive me for sounding so pathetic. It's a true story though.
Posted: 12 February 2016 08:11 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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LostInParadise
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Zelph the White:
I think my sexuality is the thing the church f***ed up the most. It's the thing I'm the most bitter about. My home ward was so focused on the Law of Chastity that I spent my teens and twenties being like Joseph in Egypt and running from all things sexual.
I wasted my sexual prime too. I had several opportunites in high school but refrained from even the slightest sexual activity out of fear of the consequences. Especially the fear of what would happen if I did something and my family found out.
During my mission I felt suicidal because I couldn't stop having "dirty" thoughts about attractive girls I taught or knew. Oh man, that one time tracting when a woman answered the door naked and didn't think we could see her through the security door. But we saw her big time. Boing! Then feeling suicidal because I couldn't seem to stop occasionally masturbating.
In my later twenties, I actively avoided dating and broke up with some girlfriends because I had viewed porn and/or masturbated too recently. And I knew that as long as that was a current problem, I could never date them "cleanly".
At age 30, a girl I dated for a year and a half broke it off with me because she found out from my "friend" that I had looked at porn in the past. Just like that. I was going to ask her to marry me and she just threw me in a dumpster for that. I hadn't even seen any porn or had any activity beyond a nocturnal emission that entire time.
After joining the 31+ singles ward I just assumed I would never marry and therefore never have intercourse. And being single in the afterlife I would become a eunuch servant to my exalted family.
I think every single thing the church taught me about sex is completely wrong and that misinformation caused me to have a lot of false expectations. Thanks for nothing. And the irony to me now is that compared to Brother Joseph, I've been a saint, but god hasn't seen fit to bless me for it one bit.
I remain a virgin to this day and much like George Costanza "I cannot envison any circumstance in which i'll ever have the opportunity to have sex."
Forgive me for sounding so pathetic. It's a true story though.
Thanks for sharing. The mormon version of sexuality is drilled so hard (no pun intended) into the minds of TBMs that they often forget the higher virtues of forgiveness, understanding, repentance (change). And then there's the internal guilt and depression when we see our own imperfections/weakness/nonconformity.
It's ironic that the biggest taboo topic in the church (sex) is probably the biggest way they screw (no pun intended) with our lives. I keep thinking about the BITE model someone here on postmo pointed me to ( https://www.freedomofmind.com/Info/BITE/bitemodel.php ) under the Behavior Control section: "When, how and with whom the member has sex". Just one of the reasons I now see the church as a cult.
This sounds like a really healthy realization on your part. Congratulations! You've received further light and knowledge.
From reading your other posts, it sounds like you're still plenty young if you ignore the standard Utah marriage age of 18-22. Don't give up yet. I think I saw a group or two on meetup.com for exmo and/or inactive singles in the 31-45 range, in the SLC area. No TR required! ;)
Hang in there, and in the meantime, take some consolation in your autonomy. I still can't walk away from the church due to TBM wife and kids. I'm so glad you could! There's a silver lining for you, anyway!
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Posted: 12 February 2016 08:29 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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I hadn't had sex when I left the church, so I went from zero to woo-hoo!!!
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Posted: 12 February 2016 09:08 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
peace out
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Zelph the White:
I think my sexuality is the thing the church f***ed up the most. It's the thing I'm the most bitter about. My home ward was so focused on the Law of Chastity that I spent my teens and twenties being like Joseph in Egypt and running from all things sexual.
I wasted my sexual prime too. I had several opportunites in high school but refrained from even the slightest sexual activity out of fear of the consequences. Especially the fear of what would happen if I did something and my family found out.
During my mission I felt suicidal because I couldn't stop having "dirty" thoughts about attractive girls I taught or knew. Oh man, that one time tracting when a woman answered the door naked and didn't think we could see her through the security door. But we saw her big time. Boing! Then feeling suicidal because I couldn't seem to stop occasionally masturbating.
I also had extreme guilt over this when I was on a mission and after. You're not the only one! if you didn't have that drive you would be the expectation. If your still a little religious remember God made you that way so really the mistake is really on him.
In my later twenties, I actively avoided dating and broke up with some girlfriends because I had viewed porn and/or masturbated too recently. And I knew that as long as that was a current problem, I could never date them "cleanly". I remember feeling guilty about this too!!!
At age 30, a girl I dated for a year and a half broke it off with me because she found out from my "friend" that I had looked at porn in the past. Just like that. I was going to ask her to marry me and she just threw me in a dumpster for that. I hadn't even seen any porn or had any activity beyond a nocturnal emission that entire time. OK you probably dodged a bullet on this one she was not only drinking the cool aid but eating the powdered concentrate. That is nuts.
After joining the 31+ singles ward I just assumed I would never marry and therefore never have intercourse. And being single in the afterlife I would become a eunuch servant to my exalted family. Funny how things turn around now their the slaves to their beliefs and you're free !!!
I think every single thing the church taught me about sex is completely wrong and that misinformation caused me to have a lot of false expectations. Thanks for nothing. And the irony to me now is that compared to Brother Joseph, I've been a saint, but god hasn't seen fit to bless me for it one bit.
I remain a virgin to this day and much like George Costanza "I cannot envison any circumstance in which i'll ever have the opportunity to have sex."
Forgive me for sounding so pathetic. It's a true story though.
Zelph the White:
Don't give up their are opportunities a plenty out their !!
I was single into my thirties too. partly from the trauma we both seem to have suffered If I was dating now I would definitely use a dating online service. find a good one and go have fun.
I mean holy crap if their are groups of people on the internet that meet to talk about old washing machines (yes they really do ) you can find someone a good woman if that's what you want.
I would be happy to talk more if you want to contact me. I actually got good at finding dates once I figured out how to talk with the non Mormon woman.
Posted: 12 February 2016 10:07 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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I went with the first choice, traditional, no change. That's one part of our marriage that has never been a problem. I have no interest in changing.
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Posted: 12 February 2016 06:44 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
I hadn't had sex when I left the church, so I went from zero to woo-hoo!!!
Had to smile!
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 13 February 2016 01:16 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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MishMagnet
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I left the church before I was married or sexually active.
I don't know that I fit into any of the options mentioned because I knew nothing about sex when I left.
However - I will say it took me a good 20 years to finally take responsibility for my sexuality.
Or maybe that's being in ther 40's in general for women.
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Posted: 14 February 2016 09:30 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
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Troubled Wife
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LOL! My answer, What is sex?
Since leaving Mormonism, my attitude towards sex changed. Today it changed even more, but I'll get to that in a bit.
My sex life didn't change much, I've got some issues that doctors don't seem to want to address (something about not believing I don't have libido because we have 9 children and several pregnancies that ended in miscarriage!).
But, I now don't worry so much about a lot of stuff. But, unlike my husband, I was upset and did not support premarital sex. He has a lot of cog-dis when it comes that that issue. He doesn't see the reason for waiting, as long as there's 'no products'. (His words)
When we first were actively engaged in sex, I would say my libido was fairly high, and I enjoyed several positions, was uncomfortable with many things my husband wanted to do, but 'got there' doing them - which was hard for me. But, I also had issues with having to 'not have sex' because 'we might get pregnant' - something which he denies he ever said, and yet in the same breath says, "I knew we couldn't afford all the kids". But if that were the case, why do we have so many kids????????
Later, as my libido was dieing, I didn't miss sex at all. But, performed it because I believed the health of my husband was important, but my desires didn't really matter (yet we had 4 of the kidlets and at least another 5 pregnancies during that time).
Then I left the church. I started really studying the in's and out's of the health issues and realized that part of my lack of libido was directly related to being told (by action) that my desires were wrong, the fact that I really didn't want more kids, and finally, that I am no longer in love with the man romantically. BUT, I tried his approach, with disasterous results. He wanted us to watch porn together (he has always watched it, and supposedly tried to hide it). OMG! I was SO turned off, I became very angry and not aroused at all! However, porn addiction... I'm not sure there really is such a thing, and I try to look the other direction when it comes to his porn veiwing. Afterall, I'm not giving him anything, Right? (we won't go into it here)
SO... yes, my attitudes have changed. Today, I had an epiphany.
IF you believe in the bible (which I don't, but, that's another thing), then you have to believe in 1) sex outside of marriage is alright, or 2) polyandry is condoned by god.
Why? Because of the pregnancy of Mary.
IF mary was a virgin and not recognized as being married before God... then there was sex outside of marriage - even if it were an invitro fertilization.
IF you believe like many Mormons (I'm not gonna find the references for this belief), that Mary was married to God, so the pregnancy wasn't 'outside of marriage', then you HAVE to believe in polyandry, because she was married to two men at the same time - and sealed to god, so poor Joseph didn't have any children of his own, though he fathered a few!
So, IMO, sex outside of marriage should be 'ignored', even when a pregnancy results. Well, sort of. Now there's a "product of sex" to be concerned about!
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Posted: 17 February 2016 03:03 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
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I haven't been on this site in forever but I'm glad some things never change. Postmo's still love to talk about sex.
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To those who are considering leaving the church…
Posted: 28 November 2009 10:26 PM [ Ignore ]
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I decided I'd do something useful around here.... There are many topics I don't contribute to because they are non-issues for me. This is not to say that they are unimportant, simply that I either figured out my view of them a long time ago, or I decided they did not have large impact on my life, or my circumstances differ thereby rendering them a non-issue.
A lot of the doctrinal discussions fall into this category. So do a lot of the discussions about being angry with the church or the members. I am not saying that I do not understand being angry, or that I disagree with being angry. For me, being angry means that I'm still engaged with the issue, and at some point fairly early on I decided the thing that would make me happiest would be to become indifferent to the church, and quit letting it have an influence on my daily life. So that was what I worked toward; to render the church irrelevant. The result of this is that I'm pretty much immune to any of the guilt tactics and backward logic; for me, it's about the same as if someone were nattering on about NASCAR, I just go, "huh? whatever," and it doesn't stick in my head. It's lovely. Really.
With that in mind, I decided to give a little feedback on the extrication process - I stepped away over 20 years ago (maybe 25, I've sort of lost count) and came across this site when I was recently researching making it official - because some twit sent me a ward bulletin again, and I've decided that maybe I should help save some trees.
Anyway - If you are considering leaving the church and we sat down together, here's what I'd tell you (assuming of course that you are someone I like, which I'm sure you would be ):
It's okay to think about leaving the church. It doesn't mean you're a bad person or that you lack faith or that you have some character flaw or that some evil force is after you. It means that you are thoughtful and intelligent and that you honor your commitments, so you are assessing whether this is one that you wish to keep in your life. That's okay. It's even commendable.
You do not have to leave the church. You can consider your options and choose to stay. There are many reasons that some people consider leaving but opt to stay in. Maybe you like the social aspect. Maybe it gives you opportunities for self-development. Maybe it makes you sleep soundly at night. Maybe you believe some or most of the principles and don't think you will find them in another community. Your reasons for staying in the church - or leaving it - are personal, and you do not have to explain them, apologize for them, justify them or mention them to anyone. Your religious decision should be between you and God. Anyone else that is included in your thoughts and investigations should be included only at YOUR choosing. That means, you choose WHO you discuss it with, you choose WHEN you do so, you choose WHERE and HOW and even HOW MUCH. No one else can or should make that determination for you.
There are no bad or unworthy or cowardly reasons for staying in the church. Your reasons are your own, and it's okay.
There are no bad or unworthy or cowardly reasons for leaving the church. Your reasons are your own, and it's okay.
Should you decide to take a break from the church while you are thinking things over:
You do not have to explain your reasons for doing so. If asked, you can simply say it is a personal matter, and do not need to elaborate.
You do not have to open your home to unexpected visits from church members. You have a life, you have plans, if someone drops by unexpectedly you do not have to invite them in. You do not even have to answer the door if you do not wish. This doesn't mean you are hiding from the church or avoiding the members. It is simply going about your business without allowing unplanned interruptions. The fact that people are well-meaning does not mean that you have to excuse their rudeness or inconvenience yourself.
Be prepared that members may decide to express to you how sorry they are that you are "so unhappy." It's nonsense, ignore it. Similarly, you may be told that people are feeling sorry for you or praying for you. You are not responsible for the feelings or actions of these people. Go on about your business, eventually they will decide to feel devastated for someone else who is more engaging.
You can take as long as you like to decide what you want to do. This also means:
You do not have to make any immediate decisions about whether or not you still believe in God, Jesus, prophecy, whatever. Take your time, and take all the time that you need.
You do not have to rush out find a replacement church. If you decide to stop being a Mormon, this does not mean that you have to go out and choose something else to be. It's okay to take time off, it's okay to investigate other options, it's okay to opt out of organized religion if you wish to do so, it's okay to not know. I can't say this enough: It's okay to not know. Get comfortable with that, it will save you from making hasty decisions and getting wrapped into other systems for a sense of security. Plenty of people 'don't know' and their jobs do not disappear, their health does not fall apart, they do not become overnight drug addicts.
If you decide to leave the church, you do not have to drink coffee, drink tea, drink alcohol, smoke, gamble, look at porn, wank off, go to strip clubs, take drugs, swear, sleep with someone on the first date, or beat your children. Every human being makes individual choices about whether they want to do these things. The fact that you are leaving a system that told you not to do these things does not mean that you have to do them just to show that you are no longer Mormon. There is no 'apostate code of conduct.' Make your own decision. And, you can change your mind whenever you like. But please don't beat your children, that would be wrong. Which brings me to:
You may be surprised to discover that most people operate according to a moral code. These people are all different faiths, and they include atheists. The absence of religion in their lives does not mean that they are immoral, uncaring or cannot relate to others as valuable human beings. So make some new friends, and pick whoever you like, regardless of their spiritual beliefs. It will be rewarding.
Understand that the decision to step away from the church, whether temporarily or permanently, will be stressful. There may be times you feel guilty. There may be times you wonder if you have made a giant mistake. There will be times you feel lonely. This is all normal. Be kind to yourself, and be patient with yourself.
If you want to pray, pray. If you decide to keep God in your life, don't let anyone tell you that you are unworthy to interact with God. Not everyone who leaves the church leaves religion. Some do, but not all. Again, take all the time you need to figure out what you want to do.
Understand that if you decide Mormonism is not for you, as you get further away from it there will be times that your family members and friends who are still in the church will sound bizarre to you. You will sound equally bizarre to them at times. You do not have to insist on one of you being right and the other one wrong. It's okay to have differences of opinion. This is normal.
Understand that if you choose to leave Mormon society, you might benefit from finding another social community to join. Expect that the new community might not feel as "close" as the Mormon society that you left. Most social groups do not operate in the same way as Mormonism and there is a lot more freedom to bond with each other out of choice and not out of duty. It usually takes longer to form non-Mormon friendships.
That's my tip sheet for today.
Hope it was helpful for someone.
Remember, if you decide not to be Mormon anymore, and someone asks you "well then what are you? what do you believe?" it's okay to say, "that's personal and it's not something I'm going to discuss." You do not have to rush and decide that you are now a Buddhist, Catholic, Methodist, Druid, aetheist, or any other thing. Take your time. It's your decision. OH, AND ONE MORE THING:
Even in the middle of the very difficult and emotionally stressful process of deciding what you truly believe and what you want to do about it, it's okay to go out - or stay in - and have fun. Be your own best friend at this time. It will pay off, in more ways than you know.
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Posted: 28 November 2009 10:55 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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jellybean.studio
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Gah, I left out one very important part: That whole thing about your life being turned upside down and your head inside out because everything you thought you knew is now in doubt and your whole world view is destroyed? Yeah, it totally sucks. But it eases up eventually and you will feel comfortable in your skin again. So just keep goin' - things do fall into place, it just takes longer than what you might wish. On the up side, as long as you take your time and do not rush into a new belief system, you'll only have to do it once. And it is part of the human experience, so just breathe and try to roll with it. Keep your eye on the good things in your life, it will help you get through a little easier. And if the 'good things' keep changing, that's normal too.
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The views and opinions expressed in this post are not necessarily those of jellybean.studio ...oh, wait…
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~Madeleine L’Engle
mormon family - living with strangers that profess their love for you with sharp sticks, isolation and exclusion
-MelloMarsh on LAM
Posted: 28 November 2009 11:05 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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LessMon
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Excellent post! Nothing to add, just:
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Posted: 28 November 2009 11:37 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
Poppy
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Very well said! Thanks!
Posted: 28 November 2009 11:38 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Ladyfaire
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jellybean.studio:
So that was what I worked toward; to render the church irrelevant. The result of this is that I'm pretty much immune to any of the guilt tactics and backward logic; for me, it's about the same as if someone were nattering on about NASCAR, I just go, "huh? whatever," and it doesn't stick in my head. It's lovely. Really.
Understand that if you decide Mormonism is not for you, as you get further away from it there will be times that your family members and friends who are still in the church will sound bizarre to you. You will sound equally bizarre to them at times. You do not have to insist on one of you being right and the other one wrong. It's okay to have differences of opinion. This is normal.
This is a great goal. I think I might make it one of my New Life's (as opposed to New Year's) Resolutions. Apparently it takes more than a year anyway.
I'm not sure I'm on board with this one. I'm perfectly willing to embrace the doubt, but Mormonism hurts people. It's way more than just a difference of opinion.
Thanks for your post, though. I really appreciate your insights, here!
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Posted: 29 November 2009 01:16 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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jellybean.studio: ....You do not have to insist on one of you being right and the other one wrong. It's okay to have differences of opinion. This is normal.....
I also have to disagree on this point. We're not talking about "differences of opinion". The church is either true or it isn't. It's not that complicated.
Posted: 29 November 2009 01:31 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
Curious NeverMo
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That is just EXCELLENT, highly sane, responsible and comprehensive advice. And it applies to lots more assumptions in our lives than Mormonism. Well done!
Posted: 29 November 2009 03:14 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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sulki
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Thank you Jellybean.studio
This post was very comforting. It came on just the right day. I have kind of been struggling today. (Only out for a month and a half.)
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Posted: 29 November 2009 04:13 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Daria
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Thanks for taking the time to break this down- sounds a lot like my DH when I was freaking out a few years ago. We took our time and kept it to ourselves until we were ready.
Posted: 29 November 2009 04:23 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Yes, there are things about the Mormon church that are damaging. There are also things about the Catholic church that are damaging, and the Republican party, and the Democratic party, and the banking system, and the Boy Scouts and everything else. The Mormon church holds that everything is black and white, true or false, good or evil. I don't buy that. I have found that there are a lot of gray areas, and there is nothing wrong with that in my view - I find it interesting.
I have family who are staunch church members, they are happy with it, it works for them and as far as I'm concerned their belief in the church and my belief that it's not true are differences of opinion. As far as I know, no one has returned from the dead to announce that there is no life after death and no God. So I consider it's something I can have a belief about, but I will not truly know until I have the experience. Maybe the Mormons have stumbled on some truths, maybe not. What I don't believe is that anyone can claim they have the only truth. And that also means that my belief, and my truth, should not apply to everyone.
The important thing to me is to understand my own questions, and in doing so, I often find my answers. I don't expect those who believe the church to be convinced that it is false, and in some cases doing so would be unkind. People gravitate to beliefs that comfort them, and some people desperately need that comfort. Far be it from me to insist that their truths match my own. That would be a bit too Mormon for me. I'm content to have this difference of opinion.
Fact and opinion do not always coincide, particularly where the church is concerned. You cannot argue facts with people who ignore them, so that leaves opinion, to which everyone is entitled. They have theirs, I have mine.
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mormon family - living with strangers that profess their love for you with sharp sticks, isolation and exclusion
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Posted: 29 November 2009 06:06 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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jellybean.studio:
Yes, there are things about the Mormon church that are damaging. There are also things about the Catholic church that are damaging, and the Republican party, and the Democratic party, and the banking system, and the Boy Scouts and everything else. The Mormon church holds that everything is black and white, true or false, good or evil. I don't buy that. I have found that there are a lot of gray areas, and there is nothing wrong with that in my view - I find it interesting.
I have family who are staunch church members, they are happy with it, it works for them and as far as I'm concerned their belief in the church and my belief that it's not true are differences of opinion. As far as I know, no one has returned from the dead to announce that there is no life after death and no God. So I consider it's something I can have a belief about, but I will not truly know until I have the experience. Maybe the Mormons have stumbled on some truths, maybe not. What I don't believe is that anyone can claim they have the only truth. And that also means that my belief, and my truth, should not apply to everyone.
The important thing to me is to understand my own questions, and in doing so, I often find my answers. I don't expect those who believe the church to be convinced that it is false, and in some cases doing so would be unkind. People gravitate to beliefs that comfort them, and some people desperately need that comfort. Far be it from me to insist that their truths match my own. That would be a bit too Mormon for me. I'm content to have this difference of opinion.
Fact and opinion do not always coincide, particularly where the church is concerned. You cannot argue facts with people who ignore them, so that leaves opinion, to which everyone is entitled. They have theirs, I have mine.
I loved your post and agree with everything you said. I also agree that there are gray areas and there are people who can live in the gray areas and be completely happy there. My husband would say "it's true or it's not" and have quotes from Prophets to back that up. However, people living in the gray and taking what they like and leaving what they don't can find quotes from prophets to back them up as well. I think the whole thing is about finding a space where you are at the most peace.
Posted: 07 March 2010 08:02 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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Thoughts on Prayer:
When I decided to take a break from the Mormon church and figure out what I believed and what I wanted to do, I felt that I had to stop praying. There were times that I wanted to pray. I liked prayer, I liked talking things out with God, I had always felt that God and I were friends. Suddenly I felt that I could not pray, because God was probably mad at me for questioning whether I wanted to remain an active member of the Mormon church. How was I supposed to discuss my wish to stop attending the church with God? God was Mormon!
I really struggled with this. I felt almost like I was skulking around God’s back.
Looking back on all of it now, I can tell you the conclusions I reached:
1. When I prayed, I envisioned the Mormon God.
2. However: Millions of people pray. Millions of people believe that their prayers are listened to, and sometimes answered. I decided that while I figured out what to do with my life, I was going to pray when I wanted to. I was not going to worry about whether or not there was a God. If there was no God, no harm done. If there was a God, it made me feel better to talk things over. Either way, I was going to speak my mind and heart when I felt like it.
3. It took awhile, but I finally realized that my concept of God was too small. I was being selfish to believe that God was Mormon, and only Mormon. If I believed what the Mormon church told me, God cared about every human being regardless of their race or religion. So God would care enough to listen to me no matter what I was doing or thinking.
4. Eventually I broadened this to the idea that maybe God was big enough and inclusive enough to, well, not be any one religion. After all, God was there before the religions got established here on earth. And God allowed many many religions to flourish. Maybe God likes variety. Now there was a concept I could get behind.
So my advice to you concerning prayer while you are contemplating whether or not to stay in the church, is: Do what you feel like you want to do. Yes, I actually said that. Not what you’re used to hearing, is it? Here is one of your first tastes of freedom. Have you ever gotten a phone call from a friend or family member who is just checking in with you out of obligation and doesn’t really want to talk to you at all? I’ve gotten those calls. They feel rude, and like a waste of my time. I’d rather hear from people when they have something they want to share. If you believe in God, think of God not as some Mormon entity up there frowning at you for having independent thoughts. Think of God as an interesting, diverse being who created zillions of different life forms. God created slugs and sparrows. Apparently variety is the spice of God’s life. Here comes thought number…
5. Let’s assume for a moment that the Mormon church is true. What is your great mission, according to the Mormon church? No, it’s not having children….. The church teaches that we are sent to earth to prove our faith and our loyalty to God. Our memories of our life in heaven are veiled, so that God can see if we are faithful and worthy of returning to Him. Are we actually good people when we are given our independence?
6. Assuming that the church is true…. Does it seem reasonable that God would wipe out our memory, send us here, and expect us not to ask any questions or think things through? Have we been given independence but are expected not to make any actual decisions, or explore or experiment?
I would like to suggest to you that, if there is a God, God will not be upset at you for thinking things through and asking questions and investigating. I would like to suggest that God might be proud of you for having a working brain that you have not allowed to turn to jello. I would like to suggest to you that God might be interested in what you are thinking and feeling, and might find your individuality….brace yourself….delightful. So, I think you should check in with God when you feel like it, and when you don’t, don’t. And please don’t worry about God being angry with you. It just doesn’t make sense.
Of course, if there is no God, then none of the above matters, so either way, I think you can relax.
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The views and opinions expressed in this post are not necessarily those of jellybean.studio ...oh, wait…
“I am all the ages I have ever been”
~Madeleine L’Engle
mormon family - living with strangers that profess their love for you with sharp sticks, isolation and exclusion
-MelloMarsh on LAM
Posted: 07 March 2010 08:10 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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"Am I under the influence of the adversary? Cuz I'm questioning the church!"
I am simply going to quote from my post above...
If you believe in God... Think of God as an interesting, diverse being who created zillions of different life forms. God created slugs and sparrows. Apparently variety is the spice of God’s life...
Let’s assume for a moment that the Mormon church is true. What is your great mission, according to the Mormon church? No, it’s not having children….. The church teaches that we are sent to earth to prove our faith and our loyalty to God. Our memories of our life in heaven are veiled, so that God can see if we are faithful and worthy of returning to Him. Are we actually good people when we are given our independence?
Assuming that the church is true…. Does it seem reasonable that God would wipe out our memory, send us here, and expect us not to ask any questions or think things through? Have we been given independence but are expected not to make any actual decisions, or explore or experiment?
I would like to suggest to you that, if there is a God, God will not be upset at you for thinking things through and asking questions and investigating. I would like to suggest that God might be proud of you for having a working brain that you have not allowed to turn to jello.
What it came down to for me was not the doctrine, not the people, not any of the many things that cause other people to leave the church. For me, I simply held the church to its own standard.
I was taught that I was sent here to question existence. So I did. I was taught that I should think about things, and test whether the church was true. So I did. And suddenly, when I questioned and thought about things, the church told me I was bad. But wait.... I was simply following The Plan.
I continued to observe, and what I found was that many times when I followed The Plan, I was told I was disobedient or willfull. Uhm. Huh?
I was told that I should develop my intellect, because I would carry it with me into the next life. Then I was told that intellectuals were dangerous. Uhm. Huh?
On and on it went.
For me, I found that the church does not meet its own standard of truth.
That is what I found. Your mileage may vary.
Regardless, I do not believe it is wrong to think and ask questions, and I would encourage any responsible person of any gender to do so.
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The views and opinions expressed in this post are not necessarily those of jellybean.studio ...oh, wait…
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mormon family - living with strangers that profess their love for you with sharp sticks, isolation and exclusion
-MelloMarsh on LAM
Posted: 16 January 2016 02:33 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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jellybean.studio
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Bump from the stone age because it may be useful to someone new here...
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“The main thing in life is to not be afraid to be human”
- some unicorn
The views and opinions expressed in this post are not necessarily those of jellybean.studio ...oh, wait…
“I am all the ages I have ever been”
~Madeleine L’Engle
mormon family - living with strangers that profess their love for you with sharp sticks, isolation and exclusion
-MelloMarsh on LAM
Posted: 16 January 2016 07:52 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Hey stranger! Nice to see you here!!
Thanks for resurrecting this thread. It has some great suggestions for those leaving the church.
Hope you are well.
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Posted: 16 January 2016 01:46 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
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Celestial Wedgie
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Welcome back! Let's hope that bringing this thread back will help someone new.
Posted: 19 January 2016 08:31 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
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maynardg
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And if you are angry, pissed off, livid at the morg for the 57 years of deception, that's OK because when you finally get paroled from that morgbot prison(once you've learned for yourself that the morg is based on the foundation of a stinking pile of HORSESHIT), you will be set free and eventually you will heal and the anger will dissipate and that will be ...... PRICELESS!!
Posted: 19 January 2016 08:42 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 17 ]
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maynardg
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I agree with you about the wrongs that the Catholic church has done(nasty things historically), the Democrats, the Republicans, etc -- but no organization plays with your supposed spiritual afterlife(that's what we as TBMs were taught) like the morg does. If a Democrat or a Republican or a Catholic even said that leaving the Republican party/Democratic party/the Great Whore of the world would destroy my wonderful afterlife -- a would have two words for them -- BITE ME(sorry Bite Me for taking your name in vain). Actually IMVHO, the morg is the greatest whore of the world trying in every possible way to deceive and mentally/emotionally/spiritually manipulate as many morgbots and anti-morgbots as they can.
Posted: 19 January 2016 11:14 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 18 ]
Felix
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maynardg:
I agree with you about the wrongs that the Catholic chirch has done(nasty things historically), the Democrats, the Republicans, etc -- but no organization plays with your supposed spiritual afterlife(that's what we as TBMs were taught) like the morg does. If a Democrat or a Republican or a Catholic even said that leaving the Republican party/Democratic party/the Great Whore of the world would destroy my wonderful afterlife -- a would have two words for them -- BITE ME(sorry Bite Me for taking your name in vain). Actually IMVHO, the morg is the greatest whore of the world trying in every possible way to deceive and mentally/emotionally/spiritually manipulate as many morgbots and anti-morgbots as they can.
Financially also - You Forgot!
Posted: 22 January 2016 10:40 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 19 ]
Bruce A Holt
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Regarding the original post:
Back in my day, we called this approach "common sense". It echos my own view exactly.
I wonder whatever happened to common sense...?
Thanks for this post! Well done!
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Science is a way to call the bluff of those who only pretend to knowledge. If we’re true to its values, it can tell us when we’re being lied to. It provides a mid-course correction to our mistakes. - Carl Sagan
Posted: 24 January 2016 04:30 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 20 ]
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Once you question whether some of the church teachings are harmful to members, then you have an obligation to assess whether you are part of the machine doing harm to other members.
Responsibility for harmful practices of the Church extend pretty far down into various jobs in the Church. Those who blame only the General Authorities are very conveniently insulating themselves. Once you have doubts, I think you must ask yourself if your "job" in the church includes duties that you might really regret continuing if you were to confirm your doubts and decide it's all bunk. Might there be other members who would one day see you as part of the guilt inducing, self-esteem destroying steamroller that is the LDS religion?
If so, you have an obligation to determine truth or lack thereof in a timely manner.
I have to agree with those here who believe the Church, by definition, is an all-or-nothing proposition. The very foundation of the Church means it's ALL TRUE or IT'S ALL CRAP.
Posted: 25 January 2016 10:14 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 21 ]
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Celestial Wedgie
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leftasteen:
Once you question whether some of the church teachings are harmful to members, then you have an obligation to assess whether you are part of the machine doing harm to other members.
Responsibility for harmful practices of the Church extend pretty far down into various jobs in the Church. Those who blame only the General Authorities are very conveniently insulating themselves. Once you have doubts, I think you must ask yourself if your "job" in the church includes duties that you might really regret continuing if you were to confirm your doubts and decide it's all bunk. Might there be other members who would one day see you as part of the guilt inducing, self-esteem destroying steamroller that is the LDS religion?
If so, you have an obligation to determine truth or lack thereof in a timely manner.
I have to agree with those here who believe the Church, by definition, is an all-or-nothing proposition. The very foundation of the Church means it's ALL TRUE or IT'S ALL CRAP.
Maybe, maybe not. The same obligation applies to so many things--mowing my lawn, having a lawn, driving a car, a job funded via local government, buying a phone, eating a burger--that at some point I can't really spend all the time required to meet the obligations. And if we look at the possibility of doing harm while in the church, the other half of the equation also merits a review: were we also contributing to the good? The simple and clear choices get muddy pretty fast when we take a broad view.
Determining truth in a timely manner is a tall order. I left the church for far more pedestrian reasons, mainly that it made me miserable and didn't make sense.
I guess I'm trying to say this: I think you're being rigid and expecting too much from people.
Posted: 25 January 2016 12:08 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 22 ]
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LostInParadise
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Celestial Wedgie:
leftasteen:
Once you question whether some of the church teachings are harmful to members, then you have an obligation to assess whether you are part of the machine doing harm to other members.
Responsibility for harmful practices of the Church extend pretty far down into various jobs in the Church. Those who blame only the General Authorities are very conveniently insulating themselves. Once you have doubts, I think you must ask yourself if your "job" in the church includes duties that you might really regret continuing if you were to confirm your doubts and decide it's all bunk. Might there be other members who would one day see you as part of the guilt inducing, self-esteem destroying steamroller that is the LDS religion?
If so, you have an obligation to determine truth or lack thereof in a timely manner.
I have to agree with those here who believe the Church, by definition, is an all-or-nothing proposition. The very foundation of the Church means it's ALL TRUE or IT'S ALL CRAP.
Maybe, maybe not. The same obligation applies to so many things--mowing my lawn, having a lawn, driving a car, a job funded via local government, buying a phone, eating a burger--that at some point I can't really spend all the time required to meet the obligations. And if we look at the possibility of doing harm while in the church, the other half of the equation also merits a review: were we also contributing to the good? The simple and clear choices get muddy pretty fast when we take a broad view.
Determining truth in a timely manner is a tall order. I left the church for far more pedestrian reasons, mainly that it made me miserable and didn't make sense.
I guess I'm trying to say this: I think you're being rigid and expecting too much from people.
OTOH, I totally get what leftasteen is saying...I have a bunch of children, friends, relatives, neighbors, etc, who will all be affected by my actions.
Up this this point, I've been a cog in the machine, and while I maybe regret some of my zeal in helping "bring more to the fold", I also recognize that I was acting in good faith (no pun intended), and the machine does do good along with the bad. So I don't feel too guilty about it.
But moving forward, I feel the responsibility to not try to persuade those within my sphere of influence to believe something I don't believe (or that I seriously doubt). The things I used to say and do in good conscience to "build the kingdom", I can no longer say and do in good conscience. For instance, I've begun turning down callings and teaching assignments because I would have to choose between lying or teaching heresy.
Defining a "timely manner" would be impossible and is unique to each person, but I feel compelled to not leave it in neutral too long...I've either been on the wrong path my whole life, or I'm on the wrong path right now, and I'm not comfortable sitting at the crossroads.
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“I asked him why he had left the church. He said something about science. I don’t know, perhaps he was offended.” o_O
credit: Matter Unorganized
Posted: 25 January 2016 12:40 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 23 ]
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Celestial Wedgie
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LostInParadise:
OTOH, I totally get what leftasteen is saying...I have a bunch of children, friends, relatives, neighbors, etc, who will all be affected by my actions.
Up this this point, I've been a cog in the machine, and while I maybe regret some of my zeal in helping "bring more to the fold", I also recognize that I was acting in good faith (no pun intended), and the machine does do good along with the bad. So I don't feel too guilty about it.
But moving forward, I feel the responsibility to not try to persuade those within my sphere of influence to believe something I don't believe (or that I seriously doubt). The things I used to say and do in good conscience to "build the kingdom", I can no longer say and do in good conscience. For instance, I've begun turning down callings and teaching assignments because I would have to choose between lying or teaching heresy.
Defining a "timely manner" would be impossible and is unique to each person, but I feel compelled to not leave it in neutral too long...I've either been on the wrong path my whole life, or I'm on the wrong path right now, and I'm not comfortable sitting at the crossroads.
One time I was hiking above treeline on a high mountain pass when a storm rolled in, lightning flashing and thunder reverberating around the basin and off the peaks around me. I knew where I wanted to get, but the most compelling thing was making a decision and getting down off that exposed place.
You make good sense. So does leftasteen: sometimes we need to pick a side and get moving.
Posted: 25 January 2016 12:59 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 24 ]
Free2Live
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Being true to oneself is picking a side. Claiming that there is a tent big enough to cover all sides ... hah ... I hope that rolling that rock uphill does provide education for those that keep it in play.
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Posted: 25 January 2016 01:06 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 25 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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The most valuable thing I lost after leaving mormonism was the conviction that I knew what was best for other people.
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Posted: 25 January 2016 01:56 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 26 ]
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maynardg
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When I first escaped the morg(because I was EXTREMELY bitter after being deceived for 57 long years) I wanted to singlehandedly tear the morg down. I wanted to shout from the rooftops that the morg was the biggest fraud on earth -- the mother of all whoredoms created by that great male whore -- Pinocchio Joe. But, I want to thank all you you who have allowed me the rant(I believe I have done my fair share of ranting)because I feel that I am a little more mellow than I was. Another thing that has mellowed me to a certain extent is the fact that my TBM family has accepted the fact that I no longer want to belong to the morg --- they have respected my decision and I in turn respect the fact that they still want to be morgbots. Had that not been the case, I am sure that my "evil twin" would have come into play and it would have been ugly. For now, I am content that I am no longer manipulated by the morg and that I will let my TBM family learn for themslves about the morg.
Posted: 25 January 2016 02:26 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 27 ]
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Seen on another site:
"So many no longer believe, but are afraid to tell each other. So they all sit there in miserable clothes with tired children."
I think it's because of inertia. ...Inertia and fear of the unknown. Not to mention fear of the 'known', especially in parts of the West where chapels are thick on the ground. They know that they're going to be talked about and 'love bombed' and then shunned, including by close family members.
So maybe they drop their rate of activity, but they still deal with the "miserable clothes and tired children."
They won't look for, mostly through a combination of fear and ignorance, a better way. They are suffused with years and years of inculcation that there IS no better way.
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Posted: 25 January 2016 05:26 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 28 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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leftasteen:
Once you question whether some of the church teachings are harmful to members, then you have an obligation to assess whether you are part of the machine doing harm to other members.
Responsibility for harmful practices of the Church extend pretty far down into various jobs in the Church. Those who blame only the General Authorities are very conveniently insulating themselves. Once you have doubts, I think you must ask yourself if your "job" in the church includes duties that you might really regret continuing if you were to confirm your doubts and decide it's all bunk. Might there be other members who would one day see you as part of the guilt inducing, self-esteem destroying steamroller that is the LDS religion?
If so, you have an obligation to determine truth or lack thereof in a timely manner.
I have to agree with those here who believe the Church, by definition, is an all-or-nothing proposition. The very foundation of the Church means it's ALL TRUE or IT'S ALL CRAP.
I agree with this. If we find out it is not true, perhaps the next question we should ask ourselves is have we influenced others who might be getting hurt by this fraud--even if it is by their money being taken. I know how much it would have meant to me if someone had helped me out of the mormon cult long ago. Making sense to brainwashed people--who have been brainwashed to not listen--is difficult to impossible. I know think that asking them one question at a time such as, "Did you know..." and good to ask a question we can back up with proof from the beast itself such as quotes from profits, church history, essays, etc. Load up their shelf. Leading might be the best way to get someone out--a little at a time.
I do feel a responsibility to help those still in bondage. I also agree that if we continue to help this cult in its cause to scam others, we are partially to blame for ripping people off. However, this is not black and white as some do not want any part of LDS, Inc but cannot leave or they their spouse and children. I hate this part of mormonism--the way they turn family members on one another. I also hate the way they stole the precious years I should have had with my children by making me their constant worker-bee. I believe the GAs should be locked up with Bernie Maddof and Warren Jeffs.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 25 January 2016 06:32 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 29 ]
from the 5th wife
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I left the church in 2011 and I missed out on some of these great threads. (thanks for reurecting it). I have family who are leaving the church right now and I have refered them to this thread.
This is one of the best and most complete descriptions detailing exactly how I feel.
Thanks for resurecting this thread.
‹‹ Acting as a prophet vs a man TIME Magazine article: "The Thriving Cult of Greed and Power" ››
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Kirby and questioning the church
Posted: 24 January 2016 11:52 AM [ Ignore ]
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evil_archer
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http://www.sltrib.com/news/3446377-155/kirby-could-you-handle-the-truth
This column was so good, I ended up sharing it on Facebook for the TBM's on my friends list.
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Posted: 24 January 2016 12:17 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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This article is a good statement for freedom of speech and belief. However I would prefer that Kirby flesh out this comment of his further.
"If you're OK with the possibility of being wrong, you should stick with what gives you joy even if it means there's a possibility that you're going to hell. As long as it doesn't involve becoming a nuisance or a threat to others."
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Posted: 24 January 2016 01:31 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
Lester Gladwalker
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Great Article.
The "one true way religions" declare their truth, build a fortress around it, defend it and stay put.
Truth seekers look at truth like a dog on a leash, except they throw the leash away and follow the dog wherever it leads; regardless of how inconvenient, unpopular, scary, or crazy it is.
You have got to be a risk taker (or button pusher) to find truth.
Posted: 24 January 2016 02:55 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Elder OldDog
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some of you may not know: Bro. Kirby met his wife when they were both missionaries in Argentina. Soon after their return, and marriage, she left the one true church, to be a faithful member of another christian church.
Given that, how interesting do you think their pillow gets?
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Posted: 24 January 2016 08:52 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Kirby knows--don't you think? Good for him in suggesting people actually dare to think. Putting options out there.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 25 January 2016 06:05 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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LostInParadise
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Strong Free & Thankful:
Kirby knows--don't you think? Good for him in suggesting people actually dare to think. Putting options out there.
He must. I don't know how much closer you can get to saying it's not true without actually saying it. I really enjoyed this article.
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“I asked him why he had left the church. He said something about science. I don’t know, perhaps he was offended.” o_O
credit: Matter Unorganized
Posted: 25 January 2016 08:23 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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The old red pill/blue pill conundrum... I like it! Anything that makes people think is a good thing.
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Posted: 25 January 2016 08:23 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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He seems to know. He could be one of those people like my father who knows many of the problems with the LDS church but "chooses" to believe or he could be someone who no longer believes but would lose his livelihood if he left the church b/c he's a professional Mormon.
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Sorting out God
Posted: 19 January 2016 08:55 AM [ Ignore ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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lostinparadise posted something on another thread that I think deserves its own thread. Once an LDS person comes to the point that she no longer believes the LDS church is what it purports to be, it is natural to wonder what to think about God. And Jesus. The questions was what books people found helpful in sorting out their stance toward God and/or Jesus.
When we were LDS, we were all basically on the same path in terms of religious belief. Once we become post-mormons, we splinter into lots of different paths. Figuring out my stance toward God was a long process for me, taking over 20 years. My stance changed over the years, and it is certainly possible it will change in the future.
For those who have been out awhile, were there any books that influence your stance toward God/Jesus? For those freshly out or transitioning out, are you reading anything now that you find helpful.
I don't want to start up a theist/atheist debate, which any discussion on this topic tends to turn into. I'm not interested in trying to persuade anyone to adopt my own stance. I just think that there are books out there that can be helpful to postmormons (or soon to be postmormons) that can help them sort out God.
I listed one that I like on the other thread: A History of God, by Karen Armstrong
What have you find helpful (or are finding helpful)?
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Posted: 19 January 2016 09:16 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
peace out
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The God Delusion by Dawkins .
it gave good examples on how religious leaders / profiteers
manipulate people of all faiths.
Even if you're a true believer it's important to understand how we can be decieved.
If you can remove the trash it's easier to find truth.
Also
mormon stories
338-342 Dr Nagel
talks about how humans process information
great stuff
Posted: 19 January 2016 09:33 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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LostInParadise
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Thanks for starting this thread, Brad!
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“I asked him why he had left the church. He said something about science. I don’t know, perhaps he was offended.” o_O
credit: Matter Unorganized
Posted: 19 January 2016 10:32 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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My interest in LDS-themed books is coming down. It's about time! (I've been a non-believer for over 30 years but I didn't finish leaving until my marriage died in 2009.) I currently am reading Darwin's "Origin of Species." It's sort of heavier than I like, mainly due to writing style. But the concepts he presents are very powerful to me. For me there is a sense of going to my intellectual roots in reading the founding text of evolution. I can read it in the original (mine is the first edition; he changed 75% of his sentences by the last edition) and understand the points even if I sometimes don't know specific scientists or species names. It's also interesting that for me his book explains so much of human life, society, and psychology. ETA: Science has fully replaced any god in my thinking. It's a source for moving ever closer to truth and it has a track record that trumps anything else that I've seen. It's not perfect but I can understand it and learn from it. It answers many of my most pressing questions.
A second source of meaning for me these days is poetry. When I was younger I always felt inferior because I could read a poem and get nothing out of it. I'd look at others and wonder if they were just lying to look smart or if there really was some significance in the words. As I get older I'm more receptive to poetry and I've been finding meaning and solace there. ETA: Poetry has replaced scriptures for me. I get something out of it and there is plenty of room for personalizing and reading things differently depending on my current state.
The last thing that helps me is practicing mindfulness. The most potent practices for me are (1) slow-walk meditation and (2) listening to my emotional self, not getting lost in the tumultuous and chatty secondary feelings but instead listening until I can hear the nearly foreign language of the heart. Once I truly understand--whether it be my own or someone else's feelings--there is a sense of transformation and peace. ETA: Mindfulness (especially when in nature) has become my most reliable source of spiritual fulfillment.
Edit: I realized that I only obliquely answered the question. I hope these edits get me back in focus.
Posted: 19 January 2016 10:47 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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I'm not sure you need a whole collection of new books.
http://www.afterlds.org/one-persons-story/
http://www.afterlds.org/the-gospel
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Posted: 19 January 2016 11:07 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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We do have a short list of recommended books of this type in our Postmormon Scrapbook
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Posted: 19 January 2016 12:17 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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I haven't read any books on that topic specifically, but I have read many articles and essays on a variety of topics. Some were meaningful to me, some were not.
As I left mormonism, I was initially bound and determined to remain a devout Christian. However, I soon came to realize that my perception of God/Jesus was completely tainted by mormonism. All my views were through "mormon colored glasses", and I tried to re-read the bible without the mormon bias but I found that the mormonism was too thick to cut through. I gave up and eventually became an atheist.
I kept looking and reading, and then came upon this interview (YouTube link opens in new window) with Dr. Brian May, a brilliant man: an astrophysicist, activist, author and one hell of a guitar player. The interviewer asks him (at 1:44) if he believes in God, and his answer was a game changer for me. I realized that I could be a deist and not dependent on religion at all.
I don't like the term deist, as it suggests (to my mind) a belief in a religious god, but I found that the meaning of the word is one who believes in an overall force or power (whatever that may be), yet rejects the notion of an interventionist god. I can live with that.
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Posted: 19 January 2016 12:36 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Matter Unorganized:
I haven't read any books on that topic specifically, but I have read many articles and essays on a variety of topics. Some were meaningful to me, some were not.
As I left mormonism, I was initially bound and determined to remain a devout Christian. However, I soon came to realize that my perception of God/Jesus was completely tainted by mormonism. All my views were through "mormon colored glasses", and I tried to re-read the bible without the mormon bias but I found that the mormonism was too thick to cut through. I gave up and eventually became an atheist.
I kept looking and reading, and then came upon this interview (YouTube link opens in new window) with Dr. Brian May, a brilliant man: an astrophysicist, activist, author and one hell of a guitar player. The interviewer asks him (at 1:44) if he believes in God, and his answer was a game changer for me. I realized that I could be a deist and not dependent on religion at all.
I don't like the term deist, as it suggests (to my mind) a belief in a religious god, but I found that the meaning of the word is one who believes in an overall force or power (whatever that may be), yet rejects the notion of an interventionist god. I can live with that.
I listened to interview very interesting.
Posted: 19 January 2016 01:51 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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I was doomed from the start...
For 13 months prior to leaving on my mission I worked for the Nevada Dept of Transportation, doing testing on highway construction projects. We started early and I was usually home by 3:00 pm. I was reading a book a day during the work week, pulp fiction, of the sci-fi persuasion.
It seems apparent that sci-fi writers don't like messing around with ghawd or ghawds. There's plenty of interaction between cultures so disparate that what the advanced culture does looks like magic to the less advanced culture, but it's never based on ghawdliness.
Freedom of the mind is supported, even demanded, of not only science fiction, but possibly all good literature. The notion that a writer wants his readers to be just like him... I just don't appreciate that point of view. At least compared to "... I'm happy and here's how it happened!"
So religious thought and writing... It's too limited and limiting.
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Posted: 19 January 2016 01:57 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Elder OldDog:
I was doomed from the start...
For 13 months prior to leaving on my mission I worked for the Nevada Dept of Transportation, doing testing on highway construction projects. We started early and I was usually home by 3:00 pm. I was reading a book a day during the work week, pulp fiction, of the sci-fi persuasion.
It seems apparent that sci-fi writers don't like messing around with ghawd or ghawds. There's plenty of interaction between cultures so disparate that what the advanced culture does looks like magic to the less advanced culture, but it's never based on ghawdliness.
Freedom of the mind is supported, even demanded, of not only science fiction, but possibly all good literature. The notion that a writer wants his readers to be just like him... I just don't appreciate that point of view. At least compared to "... I'm happy and here's how it happened!"
So religious thought and writing... It's too limited and limiting.
Sci-fi fan, huh? I knew there was a reason I liked you.
The reading that I did that led me to my current stance toward God wasn't explicitly about religion. It was science. Once I started seeing the universe through more science-oriented eyes, my way of thinking changed pretty dramatically.
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Posted: 20 January 2016 03:49 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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I think Karen Armstrong is a pretty good source for what "God" has meant historically and how the idea has formed socially and culturally within Christianity-Judaism-Islam.
For me, the most profound book on the subject in the abstract- and pretty much my favourite book ever - has been "The Gods", by the French philosopher Alain
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Émile_Chartier
He goes through "themes" of God (of the city, of the country) to show how ideas of divinity and transcendence are naturally emergent from human experience. His idea that because God is beyond "power" all our ideas of God in terms of power completely miss the point, profoundly affected me in my early twenties and had a huge impact on how I lived my life. This book had a much deeper effect on me and my concept of the cosmos than the Book of Mormon ever did.
On the other end of the spectrum; God in the dirty nitty-gritty of human life, I think Dostoevsky is the best author.
Posted: 20 January 2016 09:14 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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The first book I read regarding God/religion that was not Mormon-themed was Dan Barker's Godless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists. It was only a couple months into my disaffection and it had a profound impact on me. At the time, I was devouring everything I could regarding Mormonism and I felt like I was in an emotional tug-of-war - I would read something "pro" mormonism and feel one way and then something "anti" and feel another. It was quite a whirlwind.
However, after Barker's book (and The God Delusion which I read right after), I felt as though I was able to "rise above" all the petty issues of Mormonism since I realized I didn't believe in any god at all. It no longer mattered to me if Joseph had one wife or 100, if he were a complete con artist or the most honest man on earth, because even if he were totally sincere the idea of angels delivering golden plates was absurd, and any god who could be the author of all this nonsense was not worthy of worship anyway.
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“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.”—Heber C Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, Page 32
Posted: 21 January 2016 12:35 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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thNephite:
The first book I read regarding God/religion that was not Mormon-themed was Dan Barker's Godless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists. It was only a couple months into my disaffection and it had a profound impact on me. At the time, I was devouring everything I could regarding Mormonism and I felt like I was in an emotional tug-of-war - I would read something "pro" mormonism and feel one way and then something "anti" and feel another. It was quite a whirlwind.
However, after Barker's book (and The God Delusion which I read right after), I felt as though I was able to "rise above" all the petty issues of Mormonism since I realized I didn't believe in any god at all. It no longer mattered to me if Joseph had one wife or 100, if he were a complete con artist or the most honest man on earth, because even if he were totally sincere the idea of angels delivering golden plates was absurd, and any god who could be the author of all this nonsense was not worthy of worship anyway.
That gawd awful 'God Delusion' book is so stuck and yesterday's news, so B&W...
Where's this ability to analyze? And what is it again that these atheists maybe know?
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Posted: 21 January 2016 07:54 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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Doggonit:
thNephite:
The first book I read regarding God/religion that was not Mormon-themed was Dan Barker's Godless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America's Leading Atheists. It was only a couple months into my disaffection and it had a profound impact on me. At the time, I was devouring everything I could regarding Mormonism and I felt like I was in an emotional tug-of-war - I would read something "pro" mormonism and feel one way and then something "anti" and feel another. It was quite a whirlwind.
However, after Barker's book (and The God Delusion which I read right after), I felt as though I was able to "rise above" all the petty issues of Mormonism since I realized I didn't believe in any god at all. It no longer mattered to me if Joseph had one wife or 100, if he were a complete con artist or the most honest man on earth, because even if he were totally sincere the idea of angels delivering golden plates was absurd, and any god who could be the author of all this nonsense was not worthy of worship anyway.
That gawd awful 'God Delusion' book is so stuck and yesterday's news, so B&W...
Where's this ability to analyze? And what is it again that these atheists maybe know?
Judging by your butthurt reaction to even mentioning a book's title, I'm guessing you are a theist desperately trying to hold on to belief. The irony of a theist criticizing a book that is less than 10 years old as "yesterday's news" is almost too much for me.
The original poster asked what books post Mormons have found useful and I was just responding to his question, in the hopes it might help others. I wasn't attempting to "convert" anyone to atheism. If you're a theist and want to believe in God that is fine with me.
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“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.”—Heber C Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, Page 32
Posted: 21 January 2016 08:01 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
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Speaking as a thread starter and not as a moderator, I'll ask again "pretty please" not to turn this into a theist v. atheist war. Different people find different books helpful in figuring out their postmormon stance toward God and Jesus. I don't care what kind of book it is. If you found reading the Bible to be helpful, I'd like to hear about it. If you found Lee Strobel helpful, post about it. If you found C.S. Lewis helpful, post about it. If you want to pooh pooh someone else's choice of books, please start another thread.
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Posted: 21 January 2016 10:32 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
Speaking as a thread starter and not as a moderator, I'll ask again "pretty please" not to turn this into a theist v. atheist war. Different people find different books helpful in figuring out their postmormon stance toward God and Jesus. I don't care what kind of book it is. If you found reading the Bible to be helpful, I'd like to hear about it. If you found Lee Strobel helpful, post about it. If you found C.S. Lewis helpful, post about it. If you want to pooh pooh someone else's choice of books, please start another thread.
It may be that the books out for nearly ten years just simply cannot seem to keep up.
Here is a little taste of what could be going on.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/11/30/the-best-atheist-books-of-2015/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtUrPNes5E0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
http://www.theguardian.com/news/oliver-burkeman-s-blog/2014/jan/14/the-theology-book-atheists-should-read
The bigger game changers are already moving and it is a bit harder to keep up.
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Posted: 21 January 2016 10:56 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Doggonit:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Speaking as a thread starter and not as a moderator, I'll ask again "pretty please" not to turn this into a theist v. atheist war. Different people find different books helpful in figuring out their postmormon stance toward God and Jesus. I don't care what kind of book it is. If you found reading the Bible to be helpful, I'd like to hear about it. If you found Lee Strobel helpful, post about it. If you found C.S. Lewis helpful, post about it. If you want to pooh pooh someone else's choice of books, please start another thread.
It may be that the books out for nearly ten years just simply cannot seem to keep up.
Here is a little taste of what could be going on.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/11/30/the-best-atheist-books-of-2015/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtUrPNes5E0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
http://www.theguardian.com/news/oliver-burkeman-s-blog/2014/jan/14/the-theology-book-atheists-should-read
The bigger game changers are already moving and it is a bit harder to keep up.
Thanks. That's a good list of more recent atheist books.
I did ask people which books they found helpful to them. So, the responses are likely to include books published in the past. Have you found any of the books you linked to helpful in sorting out your stance toward God?
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
Phillip K. Dick
Posted: 21 January 2016 03:41 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 17 ]
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Tessa
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Just type "gnosis" into You-tube. There are many, many lecturers...Ralph Ellis, Joseph P. Farrell, Miguel Conner (be careful of his liner exhibits, they're a bit strong, scroll further and get the interviews.)
D.C. Murdock, who just passed away, had done many researches into whether Jesus or Moses were even real...or just borrowed from Dionysis/Osiris worshipers.
The Gnostics, who were abused by Catholicism...really had a different way of worshiping....and thinking about after-lives and what not.
Have fun.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 21 January 2016 03:49 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 18 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Tessa:
Just type "gnosis" into You-tube. There are many, many lecturers...Ralph Ellis, Joseph P. Farrell, Miguel Conner (be careful of his liner exhibits, they're a bit strong, scroll further and get the interviews.)
D.C. Murdock, who just passed away, had done many researches into whether Jesus or Moses were even real...or just borrowed from Dionysis/Osiris worshipers.
The Gnostics, who were abused by Catholicism...really had a different way of worshiping....and thinking about after-lives and what not.
Have fun.
I hadn't heard that Murdock died. She wasn't that old, was she?
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
Phillip K. Dick
Posted: 21 January 2016 06:48 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 19 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
Speaking as a thread starter and not as a moderator, I'll ask again "pretty please" not to turn this into a theist v. atheist war. Different people find different books helpful in figuring out their postmormon stance toward God and Jesus. I don't care what kind of book it is. If you found reading the Bible to be helpful, I'd like to hear about it. If you found Lee Strobel helpful, post about it. If you found C.S. Lewis helpful, post about it. If you want to pooh pooh someone else's choice of books, please start another thread.
Brad, I'll take you at your word as the Bible did help me in my stance toward God and Jesus. Even as a child, I had no feelings unique to spirituality. This bothered me as I was forced to accept baptism, Aaronic priesthood etc. without a belief in it. I got the usual BS advice such as, "Read and study more.", "Follow the church and you'll get a spiritual witness someday.", "Use my testimony until you get one of your own.", "Obey all commandments perfectly and you will gain a witness (What happened to the idea there is only one perfect person?)". These are all versions of, "Fake it until you make it."
While on my mission I read this:
1Cor.12
[1] Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
[2] Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
[3] Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
[4] Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
[5] And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
[6] And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
[7] But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
[8] For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
[9] To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
[10] To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
These verses explained to me that I had received no spiritual gifts, including a belief in God and no promptings of the Holy Ghost. In a strange way, I was content with this understanding, but internalized it and stopped church within 5 years after my mission. I just couldn't see spending so much time and money on an unverifiable premise. The Bible gave me a feeling of peace concerning my lack of faith and not believing in the Bible, religion, God, Jesus and the whole ball of wax. Ironic, huh?
Posted: 21 January 2016 08:01 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 20 ]
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Tessa
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No, she died of breast cancer....very sad.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 22 January 2016 09:53 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 21 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Brother of Jared:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
Speaking as a thread starter and not as a moderator, I'll ask again "pretty please" not to turn this into a theist v. atheist war. Different people find different books helpful in figuring out their postmormon stance toward God and Jesus. I don't care what kind of book it is. If you found reading the Bible to be helpful, I'd like to hear about it. If you found Lee Strobel helpful, post about it. If you found C.S. Lewis helpful, post about it. If you want to pooh pooh someone else's choice of books, please start another thread.
Brad, I'll take you at your word as the Bible did help me in my stance toward God and Jesus. Even as a child, I had no feelings unique to spirituality. This bothered me as I was forced to accept baptism, Aaronic priesthood etc. without a belief in it. I got the usual BS advice such as, "Read and study more.", "Follow the church and you'll get a spiritual witness someday.", "Use my testimony until you get one of your own.", "Obey all commandments perfectly and you will gain a witness (What happened to the idea there is only one perfect person?)". These are all versions of, "Fake it until you make it."
While on my mission I read this:
1Cor.12
[1] Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
[2] Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
[3] Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
[4] Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
[5] And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
[6] And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
[7] But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
[8] For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
[9] To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
[10] To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
These verses explained to me that I had received no spiritual gifts, including a belief in God and no promptings of the Holy Ghost. In a strange way, I was content with this understanding, but internalized it and stopped church within 5 years after my mission. I just couldn't see spending so much time and money on an unverifiable premise. The Bible gave me a feeling of peace concerning my lack of faith and not believing in the Bible, religion, God, Jesus and the whole ball of wax. Ironic, huh?
Thank you for taking me at my word. That means quite a bit to me.
Although I am not a believer, my main goal here is to help reduce the suffering that many people go through when transitioning out of mormonism and to help them think through what comes next. For most folks, what comes next includes what to think about the divine or the spiritual. I'm comfortable with where I am, and I have no problem sharing my experiences on that topic. At the same time, I'm not invested in trying to argue someone into atheism.
And, yeah, ironic. But that's a really good example of how varied our experiences can be. Thanks for sharing it.
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
Phillip K. Dick
Posted: 22 January 2016 01:44 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 22 ]
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WinstonSmith
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Brad,
I like your question, however it happened the opposite for me. My questions and conclusion about god's existance, came a few years before I learned about the "Mormon Narrative Problems".
I didn't give up on god right away; in fact I spent a few years searching and reading the Bible, BoM, D&C, PoGP, Torah, Quran, Tao Te Ching, etc... I went to all kinds of Christian denomination services; and I prayed as hard as I ever had prayed. My actual thought was, before I completely give up on god, I will start with a blank slate giving all religions and concepts of god a chance.
The interesting thing about the moment I know longer believed in god, I experienced something that transcended anything I had ever experienced in Mormonism.
The non-existance of god, by default, makes the Mormon Church impossible to be true---That is how I thought about it.
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“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” -Marcus Aurelius
Posted: 22 January 2016 05:46 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 23 ]
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LostInParadise
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WinstonSmith:
Brad,
I like your question, however it happened the opposite for me. My questions and conclusion about god's existance, came a few years before I learned about the "Mormon Narrative Problems".
I didn't give up on god right away; in fact I spent a few years searching and reading the Bible, BoM, D&C, PoGP, Torah, Quran, Tao Te Ching, etc... I went to all kinds of Christian denomination services; and I prayed as hard as I ever had prayed. My actual thought was, before I completely give up on god, I will start with a blank slate giving all religions and concepts of god a chance.
The interesting thing about the moment I know longer believed in god, I experienced something that transcended anything I had ever experienced in Mormonism.
The non-existance of god, by default, makes the Mormon Church impossible to be true---That is how I thought about it.
I would be very interested to hear about this, if you don't mind sharing. If it's too far off topic, maybe in another thread?
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“I asked him why he had left the church. He said something about science. I don’t know, perhaps he was offended.” o_O
credit: Matter Unorganized
Posted: 23 January 2016 07:12 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 24 ]
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Brother of Jared
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WinstonSmith:
Brad,
I like your question, however it happened the opposite for me. My questions and conclusion about god's existance, came a few years before I learned about the "Mormon Narrative Problems".
I didn't give up on god right away; in fact I spent a few years searching and reading the Bible, BoM, D&C, PoGP, Torah, Quran, Tao Te Ching, etc... I went to all kinds of Christian denomination services; and I prayed as hard as I ever had prayed. My actual thought was, before I completely give up on god, I will start with a blank slate giving all religions and concepts of god a chance.
The interesting thing about the moment I know longer believed in god, I experienced something that transcended anything I had ever experienced in Mormonism.
The non-existance of god, by default, makes the Mormon Church impossible to be true---That is how I thought about it.
Winston, thank you for this posting. We went through some similar exercises. For a while I really thought C. S. Lewis had a logical approach to the existence of a loving God. I read his books, including science fiction, and enjoyed them. I searched because I just couldn't believe that I was right about God and everyone I cared for was wrong. I did find out that enough prayer and fasting will result in very interesting mental experiences. I have since decided that extreme prayer and fasting result in hallucinations. Do you agree?
Like LIP, I am interested in the second highlight. When I lost interest in God's existence, it was more of a feeling of relief. I found I could get on with a common sense view of life.Thanks again for a thought-provoking post.
Posted: 23 January 2016 11:41 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 25 ]
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Swearing Elder
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If you want some very accessible scholarship on this topic, look to Bart Ehrman. His work on Jesus can help you sort out what you think about that dude. His book "God's Problem" certainly put to rest any question about the existence of god -- not that I had many doubts at the time I read it anyway.
You can find info about all his books at: http://www.bartdehrman.com/books-published/
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Palmetto PostMormons Chapter Page | Swearing Elders Blog
Posted: 23 January 2016 01:34 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 26 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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Tessa:
Just type "gnosis" into You-tube. There are many, many lecturers...Ralph Ellis, Joseph P. Farrell, Miguel Conner (be careful of his liner exhibits, they're a bit strong, scroll further and get the interviews.)
D.C. Murdock, who just passed away, had done many researches into whether Jesus or Moses were even real...or just borrowed from Dionysis/Osiris worshipers.
The Gnostics, who were abused by Catholicism...really had a different way of worshiping....and thinking about after-lives and what not.
Have fun.
Thank you Tessa! I found some interesting info on this possibility:
http://truthbeknown.com/dionysus.html
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 24 January 2016 05:15 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 27 ]
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Tessa
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When anyone starts to research into the "early christian theology" and how it generated...(was it Flavian triggered, invented by Saul/Paul, or a combination of many things) one finds out that even the Essenes, Nazerenes, Sethians, Manitians, Catharians...and any of the many different groups, really didn't practice religion in an even way.
They grabbed from many different philosophies, including the Greek ones.
It wasn't exactly what the LDS church nor Catholic church, nor Greek Orthodox have said they did.
Dr. Joseph P. Farrell is another person to read, his books (Janus/Yahwah, the 2-faced god and Transhumanism) tell a very different tale of money being the motivator of religion.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 25 January 2016 04:55 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 28 ]
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WinstonSmith
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Brother of Jared:
WinstonSmith:
Brad,
I like your question, however it happened the opposite for me. My questions and conclusion about god's existance, came a few years before I learned about the "Mormon Narrative Problems".
I didn't give up on god right away; in fact I spent a few years searching and reading the Bible, BoM, D&C, PoGP, Torah, Quran, Tao Te Ching, etc... I went to all kinds of Christian denomination services; and I prayed as hard as I ever had prayed. My actual thought was, before I completely give up on god, I will start with a blank slate giving all religions and concepts of god a chance.
The interesting thing about the moment I know longer believed in god, I experienced something that transcended anything I had ever experienced in Mormonism.
The non-existance of god, by default, makes the Mormon Church impossible to be true---That is how I thought about it.
Winston, thank you for this posting. We went through some similar exercises. For a while I really thought C. S. Lewis had a logical approach to the existence of a loving God. I read his books, including science fiction, and enjoyed them. I searched because I just couldn't believe that I was right about God and everyone I cared for was wrong. I did find out that enough prayer and fasting will result in very interesting mental experiences. I have since decided that extreme prayer and fasting result in hallucinations. Do you agree?
Like LIP, I am interested in the second highlight. When I lost interest in God's existence, it was more of a feeling of relief. I found I could get on with a common sense view of life.Thanks again for a thought-provoking post.
BOJ and LIP,
I intended to respond to you request, and will do so at another point in time. DW engaged in a series of phone calls this weekend that summond us to meet with the Stake President and an Area Authority Seventy. Faced with the decision to go or not go, and knowing of the possible strain that my decision might put on our marriage; I conceded to go, knowing this could very well be a trap.
I intend to share my exerience and thoughts on a seperate thread, but it will take me a few days to do so.
Spoiler: For the first time, WS, stood up for himself, leaving the the SP and AAS speachless when they could not get me to take the bait and draw me into conversations of circular logic. Later in the day as I sit on the sofa enjoying the two NFL divisional games, DW joined me and cuddled (she is not a football fan). I am feeling very victorious this morning.
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“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” -Marcus Aurelius
Posted: 25 January 2016 05:58 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 29 ]
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LostInParadise
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WinstonSmith:
Brother of Jared:
WinstonSmith:
Brad,
I like your question, however it happened the opposite for me. My questions and conclusion about god's existance, came a few years before I learned about the "Mormon Narrative Problems".
I didn't give up on god right away; in fact I spent a few years searching and reading the Bible, BoM, D&C, PoGP, Torah, Quran, Tao Te Ching, etc... I went to all kinds of Christian denomination services; and I prayed as hard as I ever had prayed. My actual thought was, before I completely give up on god, I will start with a blank slate giving all religions and concepts of god a chance.
The interesting thing about the moment I know longer believed in god, I experienced something that transcended anything I had ever experienced in Mormonism.
The non-existance of god, by default, makes the Mormon Church impossible to be true---That is how I thought about it.
Winston, thank you for this posting. We went through some similar exercises. For a while I really thought C. S. Lewis had a logical approach to the existence of a loving God. I read his books, including science fiction, and enjoyed them. I searched because I just couldn't believe that I was right about God and everyone I cared for was wrong. I did find out that enough prayer and fasting will result in very interesting mental experiences. I have since decided that extreme prayer and fasting result in hallucinations. Do you agree?
Like LIP, I am interested in the second highlight. When I lost interest in God's existence, it was more of a feeling of relief. I found I could get on with a common sense view of life.Thanks again for a thought-provoking post.
BOJ and LIP,
I intended to respond to you request, and will do so at another point in time. DW engaged in a series of phone calls this weekend that summond us to meet with the Stake President and an Area Authority Seventy. Faced with the decision to go or not go, and knowing of the possible strain that my decision might put on our marriage; I conceded to go, knowing this could very well be a trap.
I intend to share my exerience and thoughts on a seperate thread, but it will take me a few days to do so.
Spoiler: For the first time, WS, stood up for himself, leaving the the SP and AAS speachless when they could not get me to take the bait and draw me into conversations of circular logic. Later in the day as I sit on the sofa enjoying the two NFL divisional games, DW joined me and cuddled (she is not a football fan). I am feeling very victorious this morning.
I look forward to it! Sounds like an interesting and positive experience, and may give me some encouragement for my current situation.
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“I asked him why he had left the church. He said something about science. I don’t know, perhaps he was offended.” o_O
credit: Matter Unorganized
Posted: 25 January 2016 07:14 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 30 ]
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maynardg
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WinstonSmith:
Brother of Jared:
WinstonSmith:
Brad,
I like your question, however it happened the opposite for me. My questions and conclusion about god's existance, came a few years before I learned about the "Mormon Narrative Problems".
I didn't give up on god right away; in fact I spent a few years searching and reading the Bible, BoM, D&C, PoGP, Torah, Quran, Tao Te Ching, etc... I went to all kinds of Christian denomination services; and I prayed as hard as I ever had prayed. My actual thought was, before I completely give up on god, I will start with a blank slate giving all religions and concepts of god a chance.
The interesting thing about the moment I know longer believed in god, I experienced something that transcended anything I had ever experienced in Mormonism.
The non-existance of god, by default, makes the Mormon Church impossible to be true---That is how I thought about it.
Winston, thank you for this posting. We went through some similar exercises. For a while I really thought C. S. Lewis had a logical approach to the existence of a loving God. I read his books, including science fiction, and enjoyed them. I searched because I just couldn't believe that I was right about God and everyone I cared for was wrong. I did find out that enough prayer and fasting will result in very interesting mental experiences. I have since decided that extreme prayer and fasting result in hallucinations. Do you agree?
Like LIP, I am interested in the second highlight. When I lost interest in God's existence, it was more of a feeling of relief. I found I could get on with a common sense view of life.Thanks again for a thought-provoking post.
BOJ and LIP,
I intended to respond to you request, and will do so at another point in time. DW engaged in a series of phone calls this weekend that summond us to meet with the Stake President and an Area Authority Seventy. Faced with the decision to go or not go, and knowing of the possible strain that my decision might put on our marriage; I conceded to go, knowing this could very well be a trap.
I intend to share my exerience and thoughts on a seperate thread, but it will take me a few days to do so.
Spoiler: For the first time, WS, stood up for himself, leaving the the SP and AAS speachless when they could not get me to take the bait and draw me into conversations of circular logic. Later in the day as I sit on the sofa enjoying the two NFL divisional games, DW joined me and cuddled (she is not a football fan). I am feeling very victorious this morning.
Winston -- the SP + AAS -- that's pretty heavy duty penishood power there. I hope you didn't get tag-teamed into submission. Does your TBMDW think that this is going to erase the fact that you know/have a pretty good inkling that the morg is built upon a pile of stinking HORSESHIT?
Posted: 25 January 2016 07:53 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 31 ]
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LostInParadise
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WS, did you meet with the SP and AAS this past weekend, or was that part of your teaser for the big story? If just this past weekend, that sounds like another very interesting story in itself!
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“I asked him why he had left the church. He said something about science. I don’t know, perhaps he was offended.” o_O
credit: Matter Unorganized
Posted: 25 January 2016 08:13 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 32 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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Yes Winston Smith! I anxiously await for you to return, and bring me (us) word.
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You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler
Posted: 25 January 2016 08:26 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 33 ]
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WinstonSmith
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LostInParadise:
WS, did you meet with the SP and AAS this past weekend, or was that part of your teaser for the big story? If just this past weekend, that sounds like another very interesting story in itself!
Yes, it has been within the past 24 hours (meeting with the SP + AAS). Part of our discussion yesterday centered around this topic.
I don't want to set people up for a big 'let down', and to be frank this weekends series of events has over shadowed the curiousity over the "trancendence" topic. Look at the definition of the word "trancendence" --- I promise you it is not a JS type claim. Part of my usage of the word "transendent", is valid due to the idea of Mormon claims immediately became small and insignificant.
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“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” -Marcus Aurelius
Posted: 25 January 2016 10:06 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 34 ]
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Celestial Wedgie
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Winston, I'm on the edge of my seat waiting to hear the rest of this. Congratulations on standing your ground and then--in the heavenly glow of the NFL--having your wife cuddle. In my book that would count as a very good day indeed!
Anyway, I can't wait to read more!
Posted: 25 January 2016 11:46 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 35 ]
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LostInParadise
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WinstonSmith:
LostInParadise:
WS, did you meet with the SP and AAS this past weekend, or was that part of your teaser for the big story? If just this past weekend, that sounds like another very interesting story in itself!
Yes, it has been within the past 24 hours (meeting with the SP + AAS). Part of our discussion yesterday centered around this topic.
I don't want to set people up for a big 'let down', and to be frank this weekends series of events has over shadowed the curiousity over the "trancendence" topic. Look at the definition of the word "trancendence" --- I promise you it is not a JS type claim. Part of my usage of the word "transendent", is valid due to the idea of Mormon claims immediately became small and insignificant.
I don't think it will be a let down at all. In fact, it's sounding more and more like it will validate some of my thoughts from when the illusion shattered a couple months ago for me.
I hope yesterday's "fun" was a step in the right direction for you in the long run. It's not easy to step into the lion's den.
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“I asked him why he had left the church. He said something about science. I don’t know, perhaps he was offended.” o_O
credit: Matter Unorganized
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