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← The Friday Column: Watchtower, genocide, and armageddon
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Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Doomsday Clock
Posted on January 29, 2016
In 1947 the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists featured a clock on the cover of its magazine which came to be known as the “Doomsday Clock.” While World War II had ended, the threat of global nuclear warfare had just begun. Tension between the United States and the Soviet Union escalated in 1949 when the Soviets detonated a bomb in central Asia, causing international concern. The Bulletin Scientists moved the symbolic minute hand from seven minutes to midnight to 3 minutes before midnight, indicating just how close they felt the world was to a possible nuclear holocaust.
Throughout the years the minute hand has ticked back and forth with world events as scientists have monitored the arms buildup of the superpowers. In time, the “Doomsday Clock” became linked with the term “doomsday cult.”
Cover of Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, February 1958
Cover of Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, February 1958
1975
By the year 1975, Jehovah’s Witnesses began to take notice of this clock, publishing its time on a regular basis in an effort to highlight the urgency of the “last days”. This timing was no coincidence, as Watchtower vice-president Frederick Franz had predicted back in 1966 that 1975 would mark the end of 6000 years of mankind’s existence, kicking off the 1000 year reign of Christ. This would mean that 1975 would also bring about God’s personal doomsday, Armageddon.
"Life Everlasting" book prediction of 1975 as the likely onset of Armageddon
“Life Everlasting” book prediction of 1975 as the likely onset of Armageddon
The Doomsday Clock seemed to add weight to these predictions.
The Awake! magazine of February 8, 1975 stated:
ON AUGUST 25, 1974, the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists moved its front-cover “doomsday clock” three minutes closer to midnight. These scientists thus signaled their fear that the threat of nuclear holocaust recently grew by that much, bringing the clock to nine minutes before midnight.
However, those who are aware of the clock’s history know that, since 1947 when the atomic scientists started it ticking, their clock has moved eight times, but in both directions.
Many people believe that the course of history is very similar to that “doomsday clock.” They say that crises come and crises go but somehow mankind always muddles through. Their outlook is just what a discerning prophet 1,900 years ago said it would be: “Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”—2 Pet. 3:4
On the one hand, Witnesses were frightened by the impending doom and ominous nature of the nuclear threat, while simultaneously being told that the vacillation of the clock’s hands proves that mankind is deceived into thinking that the end of the world was not imminent.
The year 1975 came and went without major incident, and this disappointment was devastating to many Jehovah’s Witnesses, causing a radical drop in membership and financial ruin for many who had pinned their hopes on this date.
Amazingly, the Watchtower’s Governing Body brushed aside this theocratic defeat and went right back to disseminating messages of doom for all of the word’s governments, all religions (except JWs), and any person not associated with Jehovah’s Witnesses.
On June 8, 1981, the Awake! magazine excitedly announced that the Doomsday Clock had moved closer to the midnight hour:
BACK IN 1947, atomic scientists concerned about nuclear war invented a “doomsday clock” to dramatize their fears. The clock has since become the best known symbol of the publication “Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists.” Should the hands of the clock reach midnight, it will mean that nuclear war has begun.
Recently the position of the hands was set ahead—from seven minutes before midnight to only four minutes to that hour. Quite a jump! The hands have been moved only 10 times in 33 years.
Why do the scientists think the world is now getting closer to nuclear war? Because of the failure of the SALT II arms treaty and because of each side’s stated willingness to fight a “limited” nuclear war.
1984
By 1984, Jehovah’s Witnesses were inundated with articles and books which declared that Armageddon was imminent, citing its infamous “generations” teaching along with fear of global nuclear war. The March 22 1984 Awake! announced:
The “doomsday clock,” a feature of the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, was advanced another minute last January to three minutes before midnight… The “Bulletin Clock” has been advanced and set back through the years to indicate the intensity of “the threat of nuclear doomsday hovering over humanity.” The present move to three minutes before midnight is the closest in 30 years
The summer of 1984 saw the release of the book “Survival into a New Earth,” generating even more anticipation that the end was extremely close, and once again the clock was mentioned.
Survival Book
Survival into a New Earth, Published in 1984
The final chapter was titled The Countdown Nears its Zero Hour! Note the recycled words from the 1981 Awake!:
survivalp183-600
If you were one of Jehovah’s Witnesses back in 1984, no doubt chills ran up and down your spine as you read those words. There was no misunderstanding – we were living in the very LAST part of the LAST days, and every Witness knew that the end was imminent. Fred Franz was the living embodiment of the 1914 Generation teaching, using the last few years of his life in a last-gasp attempt to convince millions of Witnesses that Armageddon would arrive before his contemporaries died.
survivalp184p5-600
The Survival Book reinforces the “Generation” doctrine
By the end of 1984, the Watchtower organization had taken ownership of their own doomsday timepiece, capitalizing on this concept by featuring a countdown clock on the cover of the October 22nd Awake! Were they trading on the fear of an imminent nuclear conflict? Judge for yourself:
PROMINENT people in all parts of the world are, indeed, coming to the conclusion that time is running out. The forces that constantly push the nations toward the brink of nuclear war register in their minds like screaming alarm sirens. The danger of global economic collapse and the many forms of deadly environmental pollution add to their uneasiness. They sense that time is running out not just for a few nations but for the entire world. Why? Because none of them can come up with solutions that really work.
Their greatest concern is the threat of nuclear war. Earlier this year, in harmony with the advice of 47 scientists, including 18 Nobel prize winners, the monthly Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists moved its “doomsday clock” forward one minute—to three minutes before midnight. The clock represents how close they believe the world is to a nuclear conflagration. “It is an expression of alarm,” they state. The “doomsday clock” is now the nearest it has been to midnight in 30 years!
October 22, 1984 Awake Magazine
October 22, 1984 Awake Magazine features its own Doomsday Clock
1995
Unfortunately for the Watchtower organization and loyal Jehovah’s Witnesses, the clock wound down, expiring in yet another embarrassing end-of-times failed prediction. Fred Franz finally passed away in 1992, leaving behind a mountain of Biblical interpretations which would take years for the organization to unravel. Just 3 years after his death, the 1995 Watchtower discarded the previous “Generation” teaching and replaced it with with what they called a more “precise” doctrine.
November 1, 1995 Watchtower discards previous generation teaching
November 1, 1995 Watchtower discards previous generation teaching, claims to have “precise” viewpoint
This 1995 Watchtower article reveals a key contradiction which has plagued the Witness organization since its origin. “Jehovah has revealed to us…” the things which “must shortly take place”, yet Jehovah’s Witnesses have somehow misinterpreted God’s personal revelations dozens of times. Is it really plausible that the Almighty would personally communicate sacred secrets to one religious organization, yet do so inaccurately every time?
Using language such as “terminal ruination”, “critical” and “urgency”, the Governing Body has continued to wield fear as a tool to steer the lives of millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and the Doomsday Clock is still mentioned repeatedly in Watchtower and Awake! articles.
Witnesses – Doomsday Prophets?
It is a fallacy and a deception to proclaim that Jehovah’s Witnesses are not doomsday prophets. By most definitions, “doomsday” represents destruction and death, which is EXACTLY what Witnesses preach. However, in an effort to draw individuals into the religion and minimize the damaging portions of the doctrine, the organization describes the very controversial topic of Armageddon and doomsday in a highly conflicting manner. In the May 1st 2015 Watchtower, the organization addressed this topic on page 7:
DOOMSDAY PROPHETS? Jehovah’s Witnesses are not doomsday prophets. They have been sharing a positive message about the future for over one hundred years. For example, their 1958 convention talk, “God’s Kingdom Rules—Is the World’s End Near?” explained that“God’s kingdom comes, not to destroy this earth, but to destroy Satan’s world. God’s kingdom comes, not to burn up this earth, but to bring to pass God’s will here on earth as well
as in heaven. For that reason the earth is worth preserving as God’s creation; and God will preserve it for all eternity.”
The clever strategy mentioned above has been used for decades to divert attention away from the massive decimation of human life by declaring that the Earth will be secure forever and will never face annihilation. Does the declaration of the Earth’s preservation absolve Jehovah’s Witnesses of the title “Doomsday Prophets”? Hardly.
In the very same 2015 Watchtower, it is later revealed that there WILL be significant loss of life:
The Bible informs us that the end will involve destruction:
“There will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now . . . In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved.” (Matthew 24:21,22) But God promises us that many humans will survive: “The world is passing away . . . , but the one who does the will of God remains forever.”…
The context shows that “all these things” that are to be dissolved include the ruling elements of this corrupt world and all those who choose such rulership rather than God’s.
Rather than following the majority today and ignoring the clear signals that we are living in such important times, we need to “keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah.” Jehovah’s Witnesses can show you from the Bible how
you can be a survivor of this upcoming day
(bold added by editor)
The claim that “many” will survive Armageddon belies the actual JW teaching that MOST will be destroyed – billions of humans eliminated at God’s hand. The implication is clear – unless you are in close association with Jehovah’s Witnesses come judgment day, you will die.
Coming to grips with this conflict is a matter most Witnesses seldom discuss. When they do talk about Armageddon, the official Watchtower policy is often replaced with a more palatable line, something like “Well, Jehovah can read the heart of the individual, and HE makes the final judgment…”
As of January 2016, the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists continues to place its clock at 3 minutes before midnight, right back where it was in 1984. Jehovah’s Witnesses will no doubt continue to exploit the rational fears of their members, and exchange this fear for an Apocalypse where they find themselves on the safe side of the fence.
On a personal level, the Watchtower’s emphasis on mankind’s impending doom deeply impacted my life. I was baptized in 1984 while attending high school, completely immersed in the belief that all of the collective “signs” pointed to the imminent day of God’s anger, Armageddon. Looking back on it, I didn’t know any better, just as the kids 10 years older than me were taken in by the 1975 prediction.
Perhaps the most important reason I was finally able to escape nearly 40 years later was my reflection on the repeating cycles I observed over my lifetime inside the organization. It went something like this:
PREDICT – FAIL – CHANGE DOCTRINE – REPEAT
Not only did I see these repeating patterns for more than 40 years, the real wake-up call was understanding how the latest doctrines were being injected into the minds of the next generation at younger and younger ages. I watched so many teens raise their hands at the Kingdom Hall and recite the current doctrine during the Watchtower Study, believing that they are devouring “spiritual meat”, when in fact so much of what they currently believe is likely to end up in the growing landfill with all of the discarded Watchtower publications.
Watchtower teachings come with an expiration date
Watchtower teachings come with an expiration date
Reflecting on the Watchtower’s use of the Doomsday Clock along with other end-of-the-world predictions might seem academic, but if you are still one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, understanding and escaping the undue influence of this organization might just give you back your life. Check the clock – you still have time.
JR
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The Friday Column: Watchtower and Dinosaurs →
248 Responses to Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Doomsday Clock
Newer Comments →
Johnshipl says:
January 29, 2016 at 11:20 am
Tony morris gave a talk about armagedon .describing the fate of those who do not respond to the message as ending up bodies burnt and split open like charred hot dogs. Aparantly he gave this talk to an audiance imcluding children . I know my feelings on this disgusting talk .and thes “kindly ” men are gods annointed .!!
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Tara says:
January 29, 2016 at 5:29 pm
I have heard this mentioned a few times.. is there a link to it Johnshipl?
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Johnship says:
January 30, 2016 at 4:26 am
I dont kmow how to do link. However it is on u tube under .getting to know you anthony morris 111 part 12 hot dog. I hope that will get you there .worth a listen.
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Tara says:
January 30, 2016 at 1:41 pm
Ah he was referring to his time as a medic in Vietnam seeing people burnt… hmmm this graphic picture should be shown to the minions when they start posting stupid fb pictures of a smiling Tony Blair taking a selfie in front of a blast which says ‘Me at Armageddon’.
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ScotWm says:
January 31, 2016 at 12:59 pm
We all know the identities of the con men who are directing the Watchtower doomsday cult. Now that the Governing Body members have come out of hiding, I have attempted to analyze their motives.
These three men are on power trips, getting off on the unquestioned loyalty of their cult followers. These men have mastered the art of lying with a straight face and they know that nearly everything they teach is false:
Gerrit Lösch
David H. Splane
Samuel Herd
This man probably believes he is really an anointed faithful slave. Like other Governing Body members, he will always lie to protect the Watchtower:
Geoffrey Jackson
These two men are seriously deluded. They may actually believe their bizarre hallucinations are divinely inspired:
M. Stephen Lett
Anthony Morris III
This new guy knows the whole Governing Body thing is a farce, but is flattered that he was chosen to rule with the big boys:
Mark Sanderson
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Robert67 says:
January 29, 2016 at 11:22 am
From a person of faith what the Bible has to say about these cult leaders.
Deutoronomy 18:20-22
20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”
21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord DOES NOT take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has NOT spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so DO NOT be alarmed.
Proverbs 30:5,6
5 “Every word of God is flawless;
he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
6 Do NOT ADD to his words,
or he will rebuke you and prove you a LIAR.
1 Corinthians 4:6
6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “DO NOT go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.
This cult is what happens when people inclined to seek Christ kick Gods word to a side in order to read these Cult leaders fabrications on Gods will.
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Eric Arthur Blair says:
January 29, 2016 at 3:43 pm
Robert 67, thank you for this comment, Deuteronomy 18:20-22 is even more damming when read from the NWT, especially verse 22. Geoffrey Jackson got one thing right at the ARC, they are presumptuous!
Once again they condem themselves through their own words and actions. By their fruits you shall know them.
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Pburford says:
January 30, 2016 at 4:42 am
Great points, thanks for sharing these scriptures.
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Holy Connoli says:
January 30, 2016 at 2:26 pm
@Robert67. Hi Robert good points you make. Just wondering are you still actively attending meetings and answering at the meetings etc. Has anyone been questioning you as to your points of view or do you keep them to yourself most of the time?
Seems lie the Witch-hunts of the WT are getting stronger these days. I speak with a few that are fading and they tell me the WT keeps coming don harder and harder on any “outside” the Box thinking. The thought police are always watching.
How much longer so you think you can do this for?
I admire you for your perseverance.
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Robert67 says:
February 2, 2016 at 8:16 pm
I am in a new city and have been openly dropping truth bombs at meeting. Example “I am so glad for this new light and now the fact that Moses, David and Elijah have not been resurected to lead us into the Great tribulation as Rutherford predicted time and time again makes more sence.” “This new construction project is truly a blessing I’m just so conserned for friends, since the area turned out to be a toxic waste dump and we’ve all heard of the cancerous effects of many of these chemicals.” My favorite is openly damning all those worldly false prophets that tell us the world is ending now and nothing happens, I then quote Deutoronomy 18:20-23 and Proverbs 30:5,6 “Trully Jehovah is proving them lying false prophets as predicted for the last days and all this new light is shining right on them.”
You’d be surprised the mix of reactions as I look around the hall when I comment this stuff everything from “did you know that?” “Is that true?” To just affirmative nodding of the head or the “I know what you are” look.
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Holy Connoli says:
February 3, 2016 at 5:53 am
@Robert67
You do have Guts. I know from my experience depending how outspoken you get you will soon be hauled before the Brown Shirts and interrogated for sure.There will always be some who don’t care but the majority will run to an Elder to report you and say you are going apostate or Crazy or Both. They will give you warnings and censor you. It is just a matter of time if you are outspoken. Since I read your comments and I know you are fading but do you go out in FS also even though you do not believe it? When I faded I could no longer go in FS bc I did not believe it anymore and did not want to try to convince people of something I myself did not believe. That is just my way of dealing with it. I know that is not for everyone. Keep me/us informed of how things are going.
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anonymous4 says:
January 30, 2016 at 3:12 pm
If these were Old Testament days, the WT Prophets would have been stoned. No 2 ways about it.
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Tara says:
January 30, 2016 at 9:04 pm
Nothing wrong with being stoned….. oh…… wrong stoned…… nvm.
Jehovah, Jehovah, Jehovah….
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Brent says:
January 29, 2016 at 11:26 am
Its hard keeping a doomsday cult going after the date of departure. I’am 50 years ago and my parents in the late 70’s, they are near their own end time and the sight of their old age and declining health forced my Brothers and Sisters to wake up and realize that they had been lied to. They have walked away from the JW’s all in the last 2 years leaving me (the Black sheep who walked away at 17 without being baptized) to take care of my folks. The folks are sad and lost and a little crazy. I hate this cult that in the end I can never seem to be rid of.
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Chiafade says:
January 29, 2016 at 11:39 am
I’m sorry that you’re going through that. I hate hearing experiences like yours but they serve as a reminder to us. Waking up from the indoctrination comes with a price. I’m sure you don’t regret seeing things clearly, nor do I. That extra useless appendage we were carrying called Watchtower was a stumbling block to joy.
The organization Is an insidious parasite that leaves remains of itself in our pysche. Taking care of your aged parents is a noble thing. It’s good that they have a caretaker who isn’t burdened down with meetings and field service and elders hounding you for your time.
I’ll will never let the witnesses forget the abuse heaped upon us and them to perpetuate man made doctrines. The end is around the corner my hairy yellow @$$.
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Brent says:
January 29, 2016 at 12:33 pm
Thanks, I do drive them to the Kingdom Hall, I love them anyway but they still think I am wrong. Good point about not having to go in Field Service.
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Winston Smith says:
January 29, 2016 at 9:47 pm
I have some aged witness relatives as well. Some who are in their 80’s still believe the old promise that “millions now living will never die.” They actually tell me the end is right around the corner and they are going to see it, but I won’t unless I return to the organization. What a way to spend your few remaining years with your family. I imagine it will come as a great shock to them when they actually die (not to sound cold hearted).
WS
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anonymous4 says:
January 29, 2016 at 10:46 pm
Sounds like they don’t have much faith in the “overlapping generation” thing. It would mean they could very well be gone before the “end” arrives!
anonymous4 says:
January 30, 2016 at 12:20 am
Have them check their Math. If they’re only in their 80’s, they sure don’t fit into the category of those who were alive when that promise was made (1918). In fact, there aren’t many that do. Math can be tricky.
Winston Smith says:
January 30, 2016 at 10:33 am
@A4
These specific relatives were born and raised in the religion. So they were exposed to the “millions” teaching while very young, born just a handful of years after it was issued. Little do they realize that by holding on to an outdated teaching – i.e. not keeping up with new light/present truth – they are technically apostates.
WS
anonymous4 says:
January 30, 2016 at 1:27 pm
Ha!
John Walsh says:
January 30, 2016 at 5:43 am
+1 Brent. You just have to battle on mate and deal with it. Easier said then done, but definitely worth while. In your case the sad part is that your parents have lost two of their kids who have woken up, and you would think at their age, it’s all too much to expect them to change their own faith.
One thing for sure is that you can bask in the daily fulfillment of knowing you broke free of mind capture at a young age, and the benefits of that is ongoing.
I wish you well.
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Brent says:
January 31, 2016 at 1:31 pm
Thank you for those thoughtful words. My folks put their cult above their own children, still I don’t have the heart to tell they the truth about the truth, that it is a fraud. They, the WT benefits from stock in U.S. defense company’s (2.2 Billion) and signs on to the U.N. 3 weeks after the the fall of the U.S.S.R. No King of the North? http://nccsweb.urban.org/communityplatform/nccs/organization/profile/id/386043103
The child sex abuses, If my folks knew of this I bet they would drop dead. So in order for them to maintain their faith, they must remain ignorant of the truth about the truth. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdOjjfuEn7U
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Holy Connoli says:
January 30, 2016 at 2:33 pm
@Brent. I know the feeling Brent. I have friends and family in the same situation. The influence of the Cult plays havoc on may for may years. My JW fanatic wife likes to claim that they are that way bc their conscience bothers them bc they know this is the truth! I tell her NO! They are mentally damaged by all the propaganda the WY threw at them and their family for decades and then people realize the WT is a lying and has been lying to them knowingly for decades and they feel hurt and that they wasted BIG parts of their lives. Look at the majority of JW’s I tell her. Many are depressed, unhappy, dysfunctional and not reasonable. If this is the Spiritual paradise get me out od it Quickly!
I have a non JW firend and we talk about this stuff a lot and he tells me that abuse mentally,physically, or psychologically can take years to go away and sometimes it never does go away 100%. We need to learn to adjust.
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HighIQCrowd says:
January 29, 2016 at 11:32 am
40 years?? Well John Redwood, I suppose it does take some persons a little longer to recognize patterns… :-)
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Chiafade says:
January 29, 2016 at 11:44 am
Your comment is a contradiction to your screen name. :)
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rob says:
January 29, 2016 at 11:40 am
In my observations, many stay in just for the social aspect and friendships – ever changing doctrine may irritate them but not enough to abandon the social club and routine.
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John Baptist says:
January 29, 2016 at 1:05 pm
The society relies on learned behavior patterns to try and keep people in. After all if you were born in it this is all you really know. No different then someone who grows up in a abusive family and repeats that cycle again in their own family. Children learn what they live and if right or wrong it’s considered “Normal” to them.
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Jarred Booth says:
January 29, 2016 at 8:08 pm
That’s exactly how it happened with me. I stayed in about 5 years longer than I should have (meaning 5 years after I lost all interest). Eventually I had to come to grips with the reality that the only reason I was still going to meetings and out in service was because that’s what I had been doing all my life. It was a bitter pill to swallow at the time, but I’m soooo glad I got out.
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Holy Connoli says:
January 30, 2016 at 2:45 pm
@Rob. Ever-changing doctrine did bother me. In my Youth of 18-20 years old it was important for me to study doctrine and “PROOVE” we had the truth. As the ever changing doctrine happened every few years or every few months I became perplexed at the nonsense doctrines that kept popping up . Doctrine was always important and foremost to me. Trinity, Soul, Hell fire, etc. My JW Wife says the WT has never changed the basics? Really. Not true at all. Those are the only 2 -3 doctrines that have pretty much remained the same and the WT did not originate them. They came from other religions. SDA’s 2nd Adventist, and others.WT is a fraud.
We as JW’s were “forced” to believe them. If we did not we came under the scrutiny of the thought Police and would be DF’d.
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Chiafade says:
February 2, 2016 at 4:40 pm
That’s exactly what I was like from ages 18-20’s. “At MTS they told us ” if you don’t read EVERY Watchtower your are not in present truth”.
I took that deadly seriously and criticised any who were slow to read the latest mags. You have this tunnel vision that keeps logic out. A self imposed macular degeneration that doesn’t allow you to think “wait, how often does truth need to change?”
Reply
shannon says:
January 30, 2016 at 7:15 pm
Rob
I never liked the social club part of being a JW. It was the same old pot lucks and same old conversations and the same recycled people. I remember showing up to a pot luck with a case of beer (2 missing) lol, and an elders wife said “your not having a beer are you”? We could never act ourselves..I left that party early.
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Winston Smith says:
January 30, 2016 at 10:38 pm
I agree. As a JW we were forced to associate with the socially inept who would not fit in otherwise, except that you were told you had to love them as they were your brothers and sisters, even if they seemed really off. Some of them were creepy (a few did turn out to be child molesters), others had terrible hygiene, and others were just really unpleasant, unhappy people. I am so much happier not being forced to associate with those types. Now I can choose associates based on their character, their moral sense, and their reasonableness, instead of the mere coincidence that we happen to belong to the same creepy cult.
WS
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Chiafade says:
February 2, 2016 at 4:52 pm
Most assuredly true. I remember many who desperately needed to be on medication and couple that with therapy. There were a couple of young guys I was concerned with. I suggested to the mother that a psychiatrist or other behavioral therapist be contacted for her boys. Of course she rejected and said “all they need is the association from you brothers, don’t leave them out”.
Serving as an elder I strongly recommended they get some help. The other elders didn’t agree.
So the 18 year old who read at a 2nd grade level was stuck in the 9th grade in high school was eventually pulled out to be home schooled. An abysmal failure. The twenty one year old was chasing after a 13 year old girl in the hall. What great help to these fine young men ” good association” was.
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AbundantHeart says:
January 29, 2016 at 12:02 pm
Some other facets to the doomsday addiction is that this places enormous mental stress on children and adults, not only because high-strung individuals desperate to prove their “loyalty” and “devotion” (maybe thinking it affords a better placement at the table of the Lord?) throw all material aspirations and plans a long-term life to the wind, but because repeated Watchtower magazines adjust the “doomsday” and accordingly issue in a new “nuclear first-strike (pre-emptive)” drill as though this year is IT, the stress factor is enormous for the uninitiated.
The Watchtower is an interesting group dynamic, because from verbal talks, you will hear leadership hedge with statements like, “We don’t know what the upcoming year will bring forth, but the Watchtower is planning to expand its efforts to preach in far-off lands.” While in printed matter, it praised those who threw off long-term plans and went “whole hog” for the short-term, “Jesus is coming, pack your go-bag and be ready!”
And, I can empathize with those who have watched relatives, whom we were promised “now living, will never die (no “may” to it)” age, wither and succumb to the normal atrophy of living organisms. However, I feel my mind is opened to the possibility that on a spiritual plane, if God is communicating with individuals–humans, I am open to the concept that humans misinterpret a message or view of the Divine. Which opens up that I must be willing to listen to all sides of those spiritual interpretations PLUS my own quiet inner-voice of God, so that I am aware of the course He (or She) is plotting for my feet. This moves me far away from swearing allegiance to any ONE organization and into a mode of spiritual sojourner–a Soujourner Truth–finding that which accommodates for that moment in time for which it is right and needed message.
One week, perhaps the right message is in a Watchtower, the next day, perhaps it is available from Osteen or Buddhism. I may have a core belief structure, but the insights and edification may come through different paths, different journeys–nomadic spiritual journeys.
Based on this concept, the Christian relies on the core Scriptures which state that faith and belief in Christ leads to Eternal Life, whether tomorrow or at the end of life’s journey, so that para-beliefs on the imminent “last days” is moot, because whether it is tomorrow or 20 years or life ends, the Christian is ready, regardless.
The Watchtower attempts to prep individuals for this eternity, yet the pounding drum-beat of “last days” and its arcane twistings to wedge Scripture into this model of the “last days” drowns this out for those who are not willing to research and dig deep. If you are one of those who believes that Watchtower promises, literature and Watchtower-led Scripture reading rituals = Salvation, then disappointment and heartbreak are sure to ensue because this is putting Creature (belief in a Creation, or human enterprise) over the Creator.
References:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK219146/
“The isolation that is often experienced at sensitive military bases and the boredom that accompanies many tasks tend to induce stress and may degrade job performance. The nature of service life in general has also been thought to encourage drug use.”
“In a prolonged nuclear alert, with missile crews working double shifts, bomber crews working on sustained airborne alerts, and submarine crews working beyond their regulated limit, the likelihood of error would surely increase (Morrison, D. 1983. Weapons wired for war. Nuclear Times.).”
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Robert67 says:
January 29, 2016 at 1:54 pm
From Carm
The Witnesses make many claims in their attempt to convert you to their faith. They profess to have the only true Christian church, to be the only true representatives of God, to have the only correct Biblical teaching, and to be the only true announcers of Jehovah’s coming kingdom.
If they are the only true church and are the only true voice of God’s Word, then what they say should prove to be true and especially in prophecy. When it comes to predicting the future, the Watchtower organization fails miserably. Following are some of the false predictions made over the years by the Watchtower organization. If you present these to a JW, he will probably say something like, “Those are taken out of context,” or “They didn’t claim to be the prophet of God,” or “The light is getting brighter, and we are understanding Bible prophecy better now,” etc. Make a copy of these false prophecies, found in the appendix, and give it to them to check. They are right out of the Witnesses’ literature.
Remember Deut. 18:22, “If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.” If someone makes a false prophecy and they have claimed to be a prophet of God, then they are false prophets and are not to be listened to. Do the Witnesses claim to be the prophet of God? Yes, they do.
In 1972 the Jehovah’s Witness Watchtower claimed to be the prophet of God.
IDENTIFYING THE “PROPHET”–“So does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet? . . . This “prophet” was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah’s Christian Witnesses . . . Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a ‘prophet’ of God. It is another thing to prove it,” (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1972, p. 197). (See Deut. 18:21).
1897 “Our Lord, the appointed King, is now present, since October 1874,” (Studies in the Scriptures, vol. 4, p. 621).
1899 ” . . . the ‘battle of the great day of God Almighty’ (Revelation 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth’s present rulership, is already commenced,” (The Time Is at Hand, 1908 edition, p. 101).
1916 “The Bible chronology herein presented shows that the six great 1000 year days beginning with Adam are ended, and that the great 7th Day, the 1000 years of Christ’s Reign, began in 1873,” (The Time Is at Hand, forward, p. ii).
1918 “Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews 11, to the condition of human perfection,” (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, p. 89).
1922 “The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures than 1914,” (Watchtower, Sept. 1, 1922, p. 262).
1923 “Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge,” (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1923, p. 106).
1925 “The year 1925 is here. With great expectation Christians have looked forward to this year. Many have confidently expected that all members of the body of Christ will be changed to heavenly glory during this year. This may be accomplished. It may not be. In his own due time God will accomplish his purposes concerning his people. Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year,” (Watchtower, Jan. 1, 1925, p. 3).
1925 “It is to be expected that Satan will try to inject into the minds of the consecrated, the thought that 1925 should see an end to the work,” (Watchtower, Sept., 1925, p. 262).
1926 “Some anticipated that the work would end in 1925, but the Lord did not state so. The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason; and that when their imaginations burst asunder, they were inclined to throw away everything,” (Watchtower, p. 232).
1931 “There was a measure of disappointment on the part of Jehovah’s faithful ones on earth concerning the years 1917, 1918, and 1925, which disappointment lasted for a time . . . and they also learned to quit fixing dates,” (Vindication, p. 338).
1941 “Receiving the gift, the marching children clasped it to them, not a toy or plaything for idle pleasure, but the Lord’s provided instrument for most effective work in the remaining months before Armageddon,” (Watchtower, Sept. 15, 1941, p. 288).
1968 “True, there have been those in times past who predicted an ‘end to the world’, even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The ‘end’ did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing? . . . Missing from such people were God’s truths and evidence that he was using and guiding them,” (Awake, Oct. 8, 1968).
1968 “Why are you looking forward to 1975?” (Watchtower, Aug. 15, 1968, p. 494).
A JW might say that the organization is still learning. If that is so, then how can they trust what they are taught now by the Watchtower? Will what they are being taught now change also?
A true prophet of God won’t err in prophesying. Only a false prophet does. The Jehovah’s Witness organization, that claims to be a prophet of God, is really a false prophet. Jesus warned us by saying, “For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect–if that were possible” (Matt. 24:24).
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Winston Smith says:
January 29, 2016 at 9:56 pm
When trying to show information about past failed prophecies, often in light of scriptural references, the JW slogan changes from “Advertise, Advertise, Advertise” to “Rationalize, Rationalize, Rationalize.”
WS
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Bad Penny says:
February 1, 2016 at 4:30 am
Love your hard work in researching this info.
Also, enjoyed the video that you posted on the last Friday column – I had watched it before when I was first waking up, but it was good to see it again.
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rob says:
January 29, 2016 at 12:41 pm
Even though the Watchtower denies that they put dates on when Armaghedon will arrive, they put out little snipets of teasers like:
In early 2014 in the Kingdom Ministry they were talking about the Memorial and said something to the effect that the memorial was to be held on a certain date and then added “Will this be our last?”
Then there was all the speculation amongst the rank and file that since 2014 was 100 years from 1914 that something big would happen in October 2104 and I cant help believing that the speculation started in Brooklyn.
In my opinion, this doomsday religion does have a shelf life but somehow they keep reinventing the wheel and there are always individuals who are looking for this type of escapism.
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James says:
January 30, 2016 at 1:04 am
I agree! However, it is not wrong if those who are still in are feeling happy for whatever reason: 1. social friends and connections; 2. escapism, as you put it; 3. inner calm, if you happen to be in a congregation made up of individuals who enrich your life. 4.(in my case, also practising Spanish in the group I “serve”-they have never reappointed me for statistical reason: hours!! Not that I care) What I object is religious blindness and taking all the words printed to the WT literature as if they were from the Bible. In my family study (thank God no children, I would instill higher education in the family study!) I try to instill to my wife (very much into the indoctrination) that reading the Bible comes first and that the printed comments in the publications may change with time…well, last week she said: “..be careful I believe you are reading staff you should not!….(she is right! I just finished for the third time “Crisis of conscience, and read many other books out there)” So, there you have it. I am in, because I believe in Jehovah God and the Bible, I have always had this spiritual inner feeling since I was a catholic child, then a JW, but I feel I cannot do more than what I am doing with my wife and my friends in the congregation, which I love: give the occasional comments about court cases, the ARC, the UK articles that keep on cropping up about abuse and try to steer conversations with young ones about studying and learning to do something in life etc. I understand that many are in congregations made up of very difficult individuals and that some live in isolated areas where it is difficult to move to another one, I live in a densely populated area with several congregations so, if need be, I can move to others.
I enjoy the article and remember the doomsday clock very well since I was baptised in ’82!! I am happy for me and sad for those who cannot see the brainwashing going on and that rely on men rather than Jehovah. I understand that this site is also full with those who left the WT and no longer believe in God and I respect them as I expect to be respected as an individual. My comments are not intended to indoctrinate anyone, simply giving you my perspective from where I stand and live. I enjoyed the article and send greetings to you all (also df’ed ones!). Bye from UK.
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Winston Smith says:
January 31, 2016 at 8:43 pm
@James
It sounds like you are awake as a JW. Your mind and faith are your own and you don’t allow the leadership to have undue influence in your life (to the extent possible). Based on your comment, you certainly have not abandoned your powers of perception.
Based on your comment and those of others, I think there is a minority (albeit a growing minority) of rational JWs who do not blindly accept whatever new light is thrown their way, but rather test every inspired expression. It is my hope that you can inspire other members to embrace a similar outlook.
WS
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Bad Penny says:
February 1, 2016 at 4:59 am
James – I’m also in the UK (Midlands). I was baptised in 1984.
I can appreciate your comments that you ‘believe in Jehovah God and the Bible’ and that you are happy to stay ‘in’. It is brave of you to attempt to steer certain ones in the right direction, i.e. education and changing WT doctrines. I and my husband were in a similar position when we still attended meetings. The problem I see is that you will start to be watched and your comments noted by the powers that be. If your wife is discreet she may not mention her thoughts to others, if she does however, the gossip trail will start and you will probably be taken into the back room for counselling!
You may also be wise to take note of other Bible translations besides the ‘Silver Sword’ which has been manipulated by the WT to suit their own agenda. (You may realise this already). Research on the origins of the name ‘Jehovah’ (not from WT lit) may also be enlightening.
Personally, I could not keep going along with the bull…., the meetings were an endurance, and once I knew the real truth about the truth, I stopped attending and have since disassociated.
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ScotWm says:
January 30, 2016 at 1:48 am
The Governing Body will probably announce new light stating that because the days of Noah were 120 years, the last days will also be 120 years. This would make 2034 the new doomsday date. This is really the only play they have left and it ties in well with their asinine overlapping generation doctrine.
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Rubadub Dub says:
January 30, 2016 at 2:50 am
A great point ScotWm. I have thought this for many years.
In the December 15 2003 Watchtower the seed was sown for this belief which went largely unnoticed by the majority of Dubs (although I was delighted to see that Raymond Franz spotted it in the revision of COC).
They made reference in the article of the 120 years in Noah’s day them made the comment “What about us? We are some 90 years from the beginning of the last days in 1914 (this was 2003 remmber) ”
I remember very clearly sitting doing the maths….2034
This will be as you say the only play they have left. Yes it fits the overlapping generation fiasco and gives them a bit more time to play with.
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Winston Smith says:
January 30, 2016 at 10:43 am
I actually considered this 120 years idea back in the 1980’s around the time I was baptized. I dismissed it, of course, because I was fully indoctrinated with the “this generation (singular) would not pass away” teaching. I dismiss it now because, among other things, I realize that the starting point, 1914, is completely erroneous and based on incorrect historical assumption and poorly formulated scriptural exegesis.
WS
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ScotWm says:
January 30, 2016 at 7:50 pm
The only problem with the 2034 date is that it is 18 years away. This date won’t create the sense of urgency needed to generate the big baptism and financial contribution numbers that the Watchtower claims to need now.
The one billion dollar plus sale of the Brooklyn complex combined with the potential profits from the sale of other Watchtower properties should be enough to keep the organization solvent for the foreseeable future.
The biggest threat to Watchtower solvency is the multitude of child abuse lawsuits that are sure to come. Watchtower leaders have admitted under oath to the Royal Commission and other courts that they are permissive toward pedophiles. This irrefutable evidence will be used by lawyers to gain large child abuse judgments against the Watchtower.
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Winston Smith says:
January 30, 2016 at 10:47 pm
Even 18 years out, it is another carrot to dangle in front of the rank and file. True, it won’t generate enough immediate urgency to save the org from all the issues it is facing.
Part of the issue for the org is that the GB half believe (some members more so) the twisted babble they produce. So they don’t have a big, long term viewpoint. Just hold it together until Armageddon. Their lack of farsighted vision may convince them that they have nothing to fear.
WS
H.K. Fauskanger says:
January 31, 2016 at 4:52 am
If they decide to promote 2034 as a “likely” Armageddon date, I predict that this will only become a prominent point in the propaganda in the second half of the twenties. Until then, 2034 is too far away to create any sense of urgency; it could even create some complancency if the JW start to feel that Armageddon is many years away. (And we can’t have that!)
Compare 1975. They started pushing that date only in 1966, with the publication of “Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God”. So around 2025 I expect Watchtower publications to become ever more fascinated with the idea that the “last days” in Noah’s time were 120 years, constantly bringing up this point, though maybe leaving the implications as an exercise for the reader. Thus the Governing Body will maintain deniability in 2035. “Oh, WE never said …” blah-blah-blah.
ScotWm says:
January 31, 2016 at 11:23 am
H.K. Fauskanger says: “…around 2025 I expect Watchtower publications to become ever more fascinated with the idea that the “last days” in Noah’s time were 120 years…”
That will tie in well with self-appointed, self-anointed Governing Body member David Splane’s explanation about the “contemporaries” of Fred Franz. December 22, 1992, the day Franz died and went to heaven, is the cutoff date for Governing Body eligibility.
Stretching out the last days for 120 years demonstrates the amazing flexibility of the generation that “will by no means pass away until all these things happen.”
John Baptist says:
January 29, 2016 at 12:56 pm
And to think just how stupid people are to buy into this Garbage.
Haven’t these people been indoctrinated enough already?
Get a life and “Return to reality”
Nice presentation of information.
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SIRIUS says:
January 29, 2016 at 1:08 pm
Well, my advice. Since the end is near, board up the windows, start storing cans of Tuna and bottled water… grab a rifle and a helmet./sarcastic
BTW, great article
IMHO
dogstar
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Peggy says:
January 29, 2016 at 2:26 pm
@Sirius,
My father, who is 90, a JW for 65 years, has been storing a huge amount of can goods for the friends at Armageddon. Still lives( now all alone)in his huge house with a great basement. That’s because he can hold meetings down there when the clock strikes 12.
He just keeps repeating another ridiculous phrase about how god is speeding up time. Yeah? The fact that he is nearing his end time must sadly make him wish/ believe the actual dimension of time is altered. I won’t argue the point with him. He can’t get out. It would probably blow his mind.
I enjoyed the article, it went well with the previous article. BTW, I used to have night mares all the time about running to safety as god drops the fire bombs on my city. No more!!
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anonymous4 says:
January 30, 2016 at 12:10 am
Ur dad might be interested in Einstein’s Theory of Relativity – RE Time Dilation.
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ruthlee says:
January 29, 2016 at 1:08 pm
Ive been in all my life, so the clock has been a part of my life, doom and all that goes with it. You know i’m tired, tired of being on high alert. It has been a constant state of , Now folks, urgent blah bloo*y blah. When jc said it would come as a thief that is true because if it does come i don’t really care anymore. The wolves have cried wolf too many times to take them seriously. My go bag food went out of date for my family and my kids grew out of the damn clothes I put in who do I send the bill to for the spoiled food, the clothes went to charity and probably did some good. I don’t know what to preach, there is no credibility in the silver sword or the sermon. You cannot I repeat CANNOT keep going to the same people year after year trotting out doom and expect them to take you seriously no wonder there are no bible studies just the kids and the mentally ill who have no time concept just fear, so dooms day can come any old time. My anthem now is Two minutes to midnight by Iron Maiden waving my JW.Org blue banner (joking folks).In this deathdealing poisonous cult there is no good news just grey fog into the distance. Think i’m feeling jaded and disappointed and the whole crazy gig and having been with it too long.I think I must conclude that I would rather go into oblivion than wait for Armageddon or spend eternity with Hebrew speaking , piano playing window cleaners. Jehovahs witnesses have spoiled it all, they ruined our little young lives as innocent children. They stole our youth and now dangle us in front of the doomsday clock. the few heaven bound must be laughing all the way to the bank. ruthlee
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Peggy says:
January 29, 2016 at 2:46 pm
@Ruthlee,
I feel for you and your frustration. Believe me, I was there . I was so angry, disappointed, jaded. I was in from birth. Baptized in 1072, always expecting the end, but it did not come. Enough is enough. Someone here once said leave for health reasons. I did. When you know something is wrong, it will tear you up inside to try and make it right. Leave it go. I officially quit 2 years ago. It is most wonderful. I noted your point Ruthlee anout going to preach this same old message to people in your territory. I see this one sister in my old congregation, who is so old and crippled hobbling to doors. It is PATHETIC to see. She has literally been to the same doors for 50 years. She may drop dead on someones door step. And be hailed a faithful witness. Don’t let the past dictate your future. It belongs to you Ruthlee!! Be happy to be free.
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Peggy says:
January 29, 2016 at 2:49 pm
@peggy, holy old age mistake….
That year is 1972.. wew
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ruthlee says:
January 29, 2016 at 4:12 pm
Thanks Peggy just need a friendly voice I think it all got to me this week cheers ruthlee
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Tara says:
January 29, 2016 at 4:31 pm
I like Iron Maiden.
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Winston Smith says:
January 29, 2016 at 10:23 pm
I only knew a couple tunes by them. I was more into Black Sabbath, Ozzy, and Metallica. You know, all that Satanic music that was forbidden for us young JWs.
WS
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anonymous4 says:
January 29, 2016 at 11:04 pm
I have a sneaking suspicion u’re an apostate.
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Winston Smith says:
January 30, 2016 at 8:20 am
@A4
You flatter me! LOL
WS
Dblaron42 says:
January 30, 2016 at 1:26 am
GB= Masters of Puppets…. Promised only lies….
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Winston Smith says:
January 30, 2016 at 8:25 am
@Dblaron42
Absolutely:
“Master of puppets I’m pulling your strings
Twisting your mind and smashing your dreams
Blinded by me, you can’t see a thing
Just call my name, ‘cause I’ll hear you scream
Master”
Want a good laugh? Check this vid out: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kdOfUcEyWqk
WS
anonymous4 says:
January 30, 2016 at 1:40 pm
Too funny. Obey the Muppetmaster! LOL Nice guitar solo too. Loved Animal on the drums!!
James says:
January 30, 2016 at 1:17 am
…”spend eternity with Hebrew speaking , piano playing window cleaners…” this is dead brilliant comment!, I lough hehehe!!
I am a long life learner and love academic learning just for the sake of it, so at the age of 32 I decided to go to piano lessons and I do spend 1 hour every day at it: occasionally I play in front of fellows of my congregation and inevitably they say that they wait for the new world to do it. Obviously I am not appointable for statistical reasons, I do no pioneer and they must think that I should do more in the ORG. I simply reply that Jehovah has given us ability to enjoy life with our brain and music is one of the nice things we have, so I do it now that I am able rather than dreaming of a future that has not come yet, and speculating or daydreaming about learning the piano: do it now!! I feel sorry for you sister, nice rant and keep your chin up.
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Holy Connoli says:
February 1, 2016 at 3:57 am
@Ruthlee. I know our feeling Ruthlee. I to was baptized in early 70’s but I was not raised a JW. I came in around 20 years old. Even then there were things that bothered me on the 1914 teaching although I would put it out of my mind. Mostly the thing that bothered me was that Jesus supposedly came that year but yet he was still coming in the future ( kind of? ) and that he came “INVISBLY”. When I would read the bible it just did not make sense. I could nor discuss this with my 110% JW wife. She would put her hands over her ears and say Don’t discuss this with me..you need to talk with an Elder! As time went on I did not know what to preach at the doors anymore bc the doctrine kept changing over and over.It became SO CONFUSING OF A DOCTRINE. I would go to the same doors for years and see folks and see family pass away yet we were here saying 15-25 years ago the end is SO close! Telling people we are right. Don’t go to college. don’t learn, don’t buy a home, bc if you do you are not showing faith in the Kingdom etc and promoting materialism. Yes, in my area buying a home instead of renting was considered having a lack of faith in the 1970’s and even early 80’s.
When I was in my 20’s in the 70’s there was a elderly SUPER active sister who was probably born around 1895-1900 or so and she had been a JW for
Most all her life. Told us some wild stories about Rutherford and how she would sell books and magazines in the depression just to have food to eat. She traded books for food and chickens on farms in Northern California. Even left her baby at home with relatives to go Preach during the depression bc the end was imminent and Rutherford told her to do that and God would take care of her baby.
One Brother in the early 1980’s said after working with her for months in Field service that he did not want to end up Like Sister Wagner and be 90 years old and just waiting for Armageddon and have your whole life slip by! He left the JW’s shortly after that and everyone was shocked and he was about 30 years old at the time.
She died in 1989 at about 90 years old and he died last year at about 63 years old.Her life was wasted serving Rutherford and was a bad example of a Mother neglecting her child. At least the young brother enjoyed his life and lived normally and did not live in fear. He was right. He did not want to end up selling magazines for the Borg.
SO many have given their life to what the WT tells them to do. Now they are being told some whacko Idea about overlapping generations and the F&D Slave is only 7 men that run the show now. Another flip flop Idea. How could anyone preach that at the doors?
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redundant briefcases says:
January 29, 2016 at 1:10 pm
I woke up nearly 3 yrs ago? along a few others from our congregation.
we had not spoken or discussed anything which is all the more remarkable.
however it was the identity of the fds which alarm belled my brain and so began an earnest endeavour to research in to the past. .how with armagedddon only weeks away is the true identity of the fds coming to light somehow triggered a rebellious streak of apostate reading ( thank you Mr Franz. .should have read it 25 yrs ago)
glad to say another friend with 30 yrs under their belt has had their eyes opened and it’s only a matter of time before she’s totally free.
but let’s be positive everybody reading this:
we have escaped…we are living ..and hopefully we are now enjoying life more than before…
whilst it would be very easy to feel bitter over 26 yrs of wasted life I met some lovely people and simply say
” that was then this is now”
don’t waste the remainder of your days in a negative state of mind…by all means educate and help those who are on the edge, doing so in a way that they reach the right conclusion..
but….enjoy the journey. .smell the coffee..and breathe the fresh air!!
after all its Friday night and you could have been 2hrs into a pointless wt study …preparing answers for Sunday…
now we really are enjoying ” the glorious FREEDOM as sons of ????
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Pow says:
January 29, 2016 at 1:57 pm
Oh, but wait…..don’t go now…why we have some new items to offer like JW broadcasting and infomercials of people welcoming back dead relatives and friends, how about cartoons, sappy movies showing how a family solved all their problems by having a regular family study nite…Don’t lull yourself into a happy state, no, the angels holding back the destructive winds are almost ready to let’ em loose…quit your job, sell your house, send us your moneys (kingdom interests ) and move to a 3 world country and pioneer. Nows the time…….
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Eric Arthur Blair says:
January 29, 2016 at 5:47 pm
Haha, I love your moniker, I have an empty briefcase in my home office now. I use it as a door stop!
Recently threw out half my suits, along with about 30 shirts and ties. What a waste of money.
I also had a Watchtower literature burning day last year when I officially “undedicated” myself. I emptied my meeting and witnessing bags (hadn’t used them for a while) and burnt the lot. It was very cathartic. :)
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anonymous4 says:
January 29, 2016 at 11:09 pm
That must’ve been FUN!!!
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anonymous4 says:
January 29, 2016 at 11:10 pm
I kept my old literature. Saving a fortune on toilet paper.
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Winston Smith says:
January 30, 2016 at 10:48 am
I keep my old literature as evidence against the “inner party” since they want to rewrite their own history.
(My choice of words is obviously influenced by the fact that I am currently rereading 1984).
WS
anonymous4 says:
January 30, 2016 at 1:48 pm
Long live the Brotherhood / Resistance / 5th Column!
ruthlee says:
January 30, 2016 at 6:56 am
what a hero! ruthlee teehee
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Johnship says:
January 30, 2016 at 4:44 am
My thoughts exactly .ive been in since 65 most family in and wife.am fading out. And tell em i cant do many meetings as i get stessed and panic attacks . It seem to be working they are leaving me alone. And im mentaly out and free.
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Holy Connoli says:
February 1, 2016 at 4:05 am
@ redundant briefcase.
Great thought RB. Even though I have been out ( Faded ) over 20 years now the WT still effects us. My wife is still a super JW and NUT case Pioneer. She ignores the evidence and only says “we are the only ones” preaching the Kingdom throughout the earth. Therefore we have to have the truth!
She speaks a few languages so she thinks when she runs into somebody who speaks one of foreign languages on the streets it is from Jehovah and they sent them to her? I cannot have an open forum with her about the bible or religion if in ANY WAY I bring up the fake prophecies of the JW’s. When I was an Elder she use d to get upset with me if I did not pioneer when I was on vacation!
It has been a rough ride. JW’s the religion of no fun.
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david says:
January 29, 2016 at 1:24 pm
great!thanks for the info.
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Tam Emers says:
January 29, 2016 at 1:39 pm
The threat of nuclear war is what caused me to start attending meetings at the age of 16. As a teenager in the Reagan years, it just didn’t seem that the world could end any other way. I was really scared, and the Witnesses were the only ones who seemed to paint a different picture of the future (glossing over the carnage of Armageddon of course). It wasn’t until years later that I realized how they had manipulated my fear to get me to join up. I left the church in 2001 and haven’t looked back.
When I look back on the last years of the Cold War, the fear, hopelessness and conviction that the world was going to be annihilated in nuclear war seems like a dream. But my husband and I recently watched a Cold War television documentary and the footage of the Persching missiles and DEFCON flashing on the screen brought us both out in chills. When you are a young person with that kind of fear, it’s easy for groups like Watchtower to get a hold on you before you know it. In my opinion, that’s what makes these groups dangerous.
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anonymous4 says:
January 29, 2016 at 11:14 pm
U would like Hunt for Red October.
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Tara says:
January 30, 2016 at 12:29 pm
Ah Tom Clancy – what a hero.
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Vincent Deporter says:
January 29, 2016 at 2:49 pm
This is an amazing rundown! Thank you so much John Redwood! The work you put into this is well appreciated!
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Roman Castañeda says:
January 29, 2016 at 5:39 pm
Has anyone else heard that the watchtower claimed this year, 2016, as the last year to celebrate the memorial? Something along the lines that the world is at its end. My mom mentioned it in passing?
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JBob says:
January 29, 2016 at 6:55 pm
It was noted that this could be the last Memorial for some of us; eager minds want to twist it into a projection of another prediction. Balanced thinkers view as stating the obvious, everyone has a 50-50 chance of living to another Memorial or not, and no one can say with certainty they will see another one.
A load of sentiment from a bunch that claims to have no sentiment.
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eyes opened says:
January 29, 2016 at 8:07 pm
Hi Roman,
I have not heard that, however, at the 2015 memorial there were 15,177 partakers according to the yearbook. That number has been going up each year. No doubt that is raising questions and in turn causing alarm at HQ. If the memorial were no longer celebrated and no count taken they could avoid the obvious questions this rising number generates.
Regards
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eyes opened says:
January 29, 2016 at 8:12 pm
Hi Roman,
I messed up trying to post my comment. It thinks it is a duplicate when it actually didn’t show up… Let’s try again…I have not heard that, however, at the 2015 memorial there were 15,177 partakers according to the yearbook. That number has been going up each year. No doubt that is raising questions and in turn causing alarm at HQ. If the memorial were no longer celebrated and no count taken they could avoid the obvious questions this rising number generates.
Regards
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eyes opened says:
January 29, 2016 at 8:15 pm
Oh dear I did mess up. Sorry for the repeat.
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Winston Smith says:
January 29, 2016 at 10:30 pm
At this rate, how long before the number of partakers exceeds 144,000? Won’t that be a fun one to have to explain!
WS
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anonymous4 says:
January 29, 2016 at 11:20 pm
Just proves their constituents r getting crazier & crazier. “Yeah, I too am gonna float up to Heaven to live with the Sky God, & be a King (or Queen), 1 of the Supreme Overlords.” lmfao
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anonymous4 says:
January 29, 2016 at 11:26 pm
Another take on that: Perhaps some of these folks r “stuck”, remaining in, due to fear of shunning. So they think, “OK, let me make the most of it while sticking it to the org at the same time.” Just a theory, but funny (& clever 4 them) if true.
Holy Connoli says:
February 1, 2016 at 4:09 am
@WS. Oh that is bc many came from Christendom and were taught everyone goes to heaven. Also, some have emotional and possible mental
issues? How about the WT having mental issues and they just freaking got the whole thing wrong!
That is where the problem lies. Te WT is wrong. Now, that explains everything. The light is brighter now. I see said the blind man.
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Eric Arthur Blair says:
January 29, 2016 at 5:53 pm
I just want to add my voice in appreciation for this article. The quality of articles on this site is outstanding, and the Friday Column has been a very worthwhile initiative. Thank you all, and keep up the good work.
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Kieren says:
January 29, 2016 at 5:55 pm
This article was excellent John.
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Dr StrangeCreeds says:
January 29, 2016 at 6:16 pm
Great article. I recall living near several USAFB during the peaking periods of “Cold War” and “Space War” and while “duck and cover” had long been debunked, there were still the civil air defense siren drills and schools highlighting “Fallout Shelter” signs. Later when I visited the premier “Cold War” USAF base–it’s museum to the “Cold War”, sent chills down my spine. It was similar to visits to the Holocaust museums and sites–ghostly reminders of an horrendous era.
Fear. Uncertainty. and Doubt. Fear of the looming nuke wars. Uncertainty of what the future would bring and which of the many nuclear holders would push the button first, or if Jehovah would set one off “accidentally” to get the ball, or mushroom cloud as it were, rolling. Doubt, about whether you were in the right bunker of Salvation–“Examining Your Religion”.
Even though we’ve parted company with those days and some who are locked in the grip of that group, one sunny day, we’ll meet again… [yes, a long way for one insert…]
https://youtu.be/NFkryh6hC-k
ok, two… but who’s counting?
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kit says:
January 29, 2016 at 7:44 pm
This article will still not show those in the cult how wrong they are and to get out.
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Alexandria R says:
January 29, 2016 at 9:14 pm
During WWII an unexploded bomb that landed in a residential area and failed to explode was called a f.u.d. d.u.d The fear this caused was concidered apart of psychological warfare. f.u.d. stands for fear, uncertainty, and doubt. d.u.d. stands for doubt, uncertainty and the threat of death because they never knew if the bomb would explode unexpectedly. Tony Morris likes to say things to shock people because he is a f.u.d. d.u.d. The doomsday clock is used the same way. But he talks out of both sides of his mouth. I read an article where he says soldiers who he served with in vietnam will be resurected then he says something stupid about hotdogs. He is lecherous. He loves to shock people. The G.B. creates all sorts of uphaevel and then looks at you like what’s the matter with you? if you react. I don’t believe the G.B.
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anonymous4 says:
January 29, 2016 at 11:33 pm
Professional Gaslighters.
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Winston Smith says:
January 29, 2016 at 9:40 pm
Great article John Redwood. I loved the “Predict-Fail-Change Doctrine-Repeat. As if it were instructions on the back of a shampoo bottle (rinse and repeat). I was baptized a couple years after you, but I recall all the changing doctrines. I remember sitting with my JW family and trying to decipher how old the generation of 1914 was and how much longer they could possibly live. When I think of the time wasted on such useless drivel! And I remember sitting through those horribly boring book studies from the Survival book.
Liked how you tied the article back to the clock in your conclusion.
WS
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anonymous4 says:
January 30, 2016 at 12:05 am
Great article.
Classic example of Watchtower Doublespeak – “We preach Doomsday, but we’re not a Doomsday Cult.”
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minion says:
January 30, 2016 at 12:24 am
JR,
Great article, and brought back memories as a young pup – this fear instill from doomsday prophets the Watchtower Corporation.
To bad this religion is not an original – its only a meme of the past.
A history of misquotes and man-made by laws from the 7 men of ‘shameless, heartless and money beggers’. Taking away ice cream money and their savings from the children.
Every hard-liner JWs should be asking themselves, ‘why is the Watchtower Corporation discontinuing over 30 books never to be printed’, why?
Also, if you use jworg & online library, and research the founder CT Russell and J.Rutherford, you only get 3 videos with limited info, the online library has their names listed with limited book symbols no longer available from the Watchtower Corporation, so how in the world are you ‘to be proud of your jw history’?
Is the doomsday clock really moved forward? Or is the Watchtower Corporation really ashamed and not proud of their history?
It’s true or its not?
Now let’s compare Satan’s “true Corporations”, who can say ‘we are proud of our history’. For example,
Favorite staffing.com ‘Our history is what makes us special’.
Or how about,
Luxinternational.com ‘as a privately owned company based in Switzerland we are proud of our history and of our founder’.
Many will like this one,
Barfield.com ‘a proud history of pet health care since 1955’.
How about,
Swiftenergy.com ‘proud past and bright future’.
And my favorite – this really resonates with the true meaning of – a proud history and heritage.
Stanley Black&Decker, ‘Freddy Stanley, Duncan Black and Alonzo Decker, for more than 175 years we’ve been proud to continue their legacies and proud to carry their names forward’.
Imagine that, the alleged gods religion (jws) can’t say what Satan’s wordly ” true Corporations” can say. We are proud of our heritage and history.
It’s true or its not.
The doomsday clock for the Watchtower Corporation, has been moved forward 2 minutes before midnight.
Peace out,
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JBob says:
January 31, 2016 at 8:46 am
@minion – love those cartoon twinkies.. but, I’ve noticed this pendulum swing back and forth with the Watchtower over the years. Some years they’re proud and “out loud” regarding their history and heritage with Russell–then, under the guise of “too much creature worship” the pendulum swings back and they’re mute and distancing from Russell and even Rutherford and his Christmas-at-Bethel days.
But, what else can I expect from a house built on sands instead of apostolic “rock”-hard succession?
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anonymous4 says:
January 30, 2016 at 1:55 am
Jehovah’s Witnesses like to think they’re saving people & working for their neighbors. But that’s the easy part. What they fail to recognize is their responsibility to themselves. How can u liberate someone if u r a slave? How can u enlighten ur neighbor if u r in darkness?
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Winston Smith says:
January 30, 2016 at 2:43 pm
The blind leading the blind for sure!
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Caroline says:
January 30, 2016 at 2:28 am
After I started researching the Society and it’s involvement with the United Nations in 2014, and found out that the Society was lying about 607 and all the other lies about the real history of the Organization, it still took many months of being scared and thinking “what if the Society is right about Armageddon?” I was so indoctrinated with the fear of Armageddon.
I remember lots of Sunday talks when they’d bring up about the clock and how close the world was to nuclear destruction but God was going to have to step in to save it because He wouldn’t let his creation be destroyed that way by man.
Every time there would be some terrible thing in the news, it was evidence that God was going to have to step in and how it “just couldn’t get any worse” and God was going to have to step in to save the earth and so on. Everyone still looks for the “cry of peace and security” around here and how the U.N. is going to turn on religions.
Once when there was a case where a parent had killed their child, my cousin (a Witness) made the comment that we needed the new world because “there was no natural affection between family members anymore”. Even then, I couldn’t help but say to her that “not everyone in the world had no natural affection anymore”. But that is the first thing that comes to Witnesses minds when they hear anything bad that happened, is that “everything” is so bad that God has to step in and save the earth from total destruction.
When I first got involved in the 60’s, “it just couldn’t get any worse” and when the 1975 prediction was popular, a person wasn’t even allowed to suggest that Armageddon wasn’t going to happen then.
I remember being shot down as “having no faith in God’s promises” if I didn’t believe it but what I said then and believed was that “Abraham asked God not to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah if there was just ten people in that city who were good” and so why would God destroy the earth when there were so many coming into the “truth” at that time? It didn’t make any sense to me then, that why would God destroy all mankind if so many were coming into the truth?
My thinking was that the whole world would come into the “truth” and there would be more and more and before long, the whole world of mankind would be converted to JW’s and God wouldn’t have to destroy it. That was my thinking because there were so many that were coming into the Society at that time. I thought it would mushroom.
What I didn’t hear about was all that left because Armageddon didn’t come in 1975. That was never talked about and if a person had brought it up, you would have been shot down as having no “faith” in God then.
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Winston Smith says:
January 30, 2016 at 6:50 am
@Caroline
“if a person had brought it up, you would have been shot down as having no “faith” in God”
Classic example of cult conditioning using thought stopping techniques.
WS
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Kl says:
January 30, 2016 at 4:27 am
JW’s are so eagerly awaiting Armageddon and see imaginary signs of the end everywhere, because they live unfulfilling lives. They haven’t invested in the here and now. When uneducated and cleaning windows all day, the end of the world seems like something to look forward to. However, when I sit in my beautiful garden and watch my kids play, I can’t help but think that this world is a pretty nice place to live in! I’ll pour myself another glass of wine and hope Armageddon does not come for another hundred years!!! Lol
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Winston Smith says:
January 30, 2016 at 6:54 am
@KI
Great point. They waste their entire lives wishing for a future that never comes. They sscrifice their present happiness because of false promises.
WS
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ruthlee says:
January 30, 2016 at 7:14 am
Actually all those times around dreaming of paradise and calculating yet another number to believe in we were not keeping our eyes on the panda prize. It was a distraction wether Parousia, telos, 607, 1914, generation, nodding virgins, other sheep or any other noncy prediction that stopped us living and sliding us into inertia. KI you are so right on a good day in the garden with god’s own nectar in a glass nothing is better or finer . Hotdogs on the bbq anyone?Tara dont forget Living after midnight by Judas Priest probably should be our aposty anthem. Really this org is numbers obsessed no matter where you look the devil is in the detail. ruthlee
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anonymous4 says:
January 30, 2016 at 1:57 pm
They love numbers but somehow never get the Math right. lol
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
January 30, 2016 at 8:35 am
They do what they know and do not loose anything! Their followers pay the price and the religion reaches its goals:
*** w04 2/15 p. 4 Is Religion at the Root of Mankind’s Problems? ***
“WHEN religion is not encouraging strife it is acting as a drug which numbs the human conscience and fills the human brain with escapist fantasies. . . . [It] causes human beings to be narrow, superstitious, full of hatred and fear.”
Being the “Root of Mankind’s Problems” is the sole objectives of religion.
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anonymous4 says:
January 30, 2016 at 2:03 pm
Man! Their own quote describes them to a tee! “Hoisted by their own petard”
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A Patient Man says:
January 30, 2016 at 8:56 am
I read with interest the comments on this website. Some have a very narrow view of some witnesses who devote their lives to a certain profession. I was raised as a witness, but now I am moving away from this faith very slowly and carefully. I paid attention in school, I wanted to go on to higher learning, my parents wanted me to pay attention to a higher power, a tough battle ensued. I worked as a computer operator for a number of years until I was married, from then until now I have been in the cleaning business for 40 years. I have been to a number of schools to stay ahead of changes in the industry. I am not an uneducated window cleaner, but I have cleaned hundreds of windows, and toilets, and floors, and carpets, and on and on. I never did once think that the doomsday clock was going to strike at midnight, or that the end was coming tomorrow. I was a very balanced witness. I provided jobs for up to 15 people at a time, and for a number of years made a lot of money. Now that I am in my senior years I still have a very balanced view of life. I still read and listen with interest to people that are smarter than me. I enjoy being with those people who have positive outlooks on life. I am a recovering alcoholic with 16 years of sobriety which gives me another reason for a positive outlook. I say to some of you, find a reason in your heart to have some humility and compassion for those that are still witnesses even if they are misguided, never look down on their professions, those hard working individuals might be providing themselves and their families what they need to survive. Remember even if the doomsday clock is still ticking toward midnight you have time to do good toward others.
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Winston Smith says:
January 30, 2016 at 10:59 am
@A Patient Man
Never should my comments be construed to wish any harm or ill will on the rank and file. They are just as duped as i was at one time. Indeed I have family members still in who I want to wake up to TTAT. Sometimes I am frustrated with their lack of perception and that may show through in my comments.
My criticism is to the leadership that perpetuates a system that denies people’s basic human rights to choose the best path for them. Even being a so-called ‘mindless window washer’ might be someone’s calling and if that’s what they want to do with their life, more power to them. Hell, be the best G-damned window washer you can be. But I have seen so many who are forced to dismiss other paths that that they would really like to pursue all because of a bunch of BS from the GB. That’s what I speak out against.
WS
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Winston Smith says:
January 30, 2016 at 11:01 am
Meant TTATT – lost my last “T”. At least I haven’t lost my mind, I think. LOL
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anonymous4 says:
January 30, 2016 at 3:00 pm
@ A Patient Man
U might be missing the point. I don’t think anyone here looks down on window washers. God knows I’ve done my share of “menial labor”. As far as I’m concerned, any occupation that provides a legitimate product or service is a noble profession. The point of all the “window-washer” talk is to highlight the fact that many of these individuals are elders, overseers, GB members, big-shot pioneers, whatever, without having any qualifications or credentials backing up their positions of “authority” over others, telling others how to live their lives! Not that ANYONE has that right!! But they’re not even REAL ministers, or sociologists, or psychologists, political scientists, whatever. Not that those credentials necessarily mean anything. There are a lot of highly-educated stupid people. Most of our Social Engineers don’t have the brains to be a window washer or anything else for that matter. The point is, if I’m not going to put all my faith in someone with a Ph.D. in Sociology, Psychology, Theology, or Political Science, why would I put all my faith in a window washer?
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shannon says:
January 30, 2016 at 8:06 pm
@ Patient Man
I do feel you have missed the point.
I don’t care if you hold a squeegee, mop, paint brush or a degree! If you are acting and saying you are better than me and will live forever and I will be destroyed because I choose not to believe the ever changing doctrines, that’s is where I have a problem The point in my opinion is the majority are not misguided they are elitist.
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JBob says:
January 31, 2016 at 9:00 am
I agree with Patient Man; some of the most stellar and stalwart leaders of industry started with humble businesses and vocations. Lacking a degree does not equate to being “uneducated” because many individuals go beyond a curriculum’s agenda by reading authors and scholars on many subjects, giving them a broader view than some college students who metriculate enough to “get by” and land a job, or a “career”.
Also, I am reminded as furious and frustrated as I feel with the bOrg and relatives, I need patience; I am learning patience. I recall when I was deeply involved I used the same cult indoctrinated tactics of “thought-stop” (as WS reminds) and other parrot phrases. And, as many times as I see the GB blamed for this or that, I am reminded that one of the icons of dissent was a GB member.
It’s what we were, so relish your freedom but patience for those who haven’t come to enlightenment, yet.
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anonymous4 says:
January 31, 2016 at 1:42 pm
Absolutely. U don’t need a piece of paper to tell u u’re intelligent.
— & most folks with those pieces of paper are skilled in ONE thing, & not even very good at that – as u stated, just doing enuff to “get by”.
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Twmack says:
January 30, 2016 at 9:11 am
They’ve got people at Bethel scouring the press
and media for any stories to ramp up the paranoia.
One story I remember coming up to 75 was that
the Worlds bird population was increasing. Many
other animals were either dying or hunted to the
point of extinction , but the birds were flourishing.
No inference was made or needed. The paranoia
filled in the blanks.
A W,T article at the time, said communists failed
to brainwash the bros, because a ploy used by
the commies was, To highlight the flaws and
injustices in the World. The article then pointed
out that on that score JWs could beat the
interrogator at his own game.
An obvious conclusion, though definitely not
intended is . When it comes to brainwashing
The Borg beats the commies hands down.
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Average Joe says:
January 30, 2016 at 9:41 am
And let’s not forget all the hype about the “emergency rucksacks” a few years back due to impending disasters that were sure to come! Fortunately this seems to have died the death. I wonder who started THAT campaign?!
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Pow says:
January 30, 2016 at 11:04 am
You mean all that jw’s survivalist equipment I bought is not going to get me thru ARMAGETTON, me and my Mormon neighbor have been stockpiling food.
Freeze dried eggs …anyone?
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Average Joe says:
January 30, 2016 at 11:18 am
@POW
I’ll swap you for some water purifying tablets as I’ve already eaten the energy bars!
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Tara says:
January 30, 2016 at 12:45 pm
Mine is in the back of the car… Think the food will have perished, the clothes won’t fit but at least I have a spare set of knickers and a tooth brush if I break down.
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anonymous4 says:
January 30, 2016 at 2:11 pm
Nothing beats a crossbow! lol
Holy Connoli says:
February 1, 2016 at 4:26 am
@Average Je. That is funny. I also stored canned food and freeze dried etc. After 15 years I had to throw it all out bc it was so old! I need canned food for the “overlapping” generation now! Average Joe? Are you still attending meetings and going through
the motions? Are you still an Elder? Has anyone caught on yet. I am impressed that you can still do that.
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Holy Connoli says:
February 2, 2016 at 6:02 am
@Average Joe? Tell me about the Go-bags?
I missed all of that despite my JW wife going to all meetings. Never heard much at all until I read it on this site. Was the WT telling the R&F to do that or just JW’s themselves? How Big was it.Any articles on it in the WT magazine. Or did they push the idea and then say it is a conscience matter? lol
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Tara says:
January 30, 2016 at 9:49 am
Ok this happened last night and I was so angry and annoyed I couldn’t even come on here to rant. Facebook…. a ‘sister’ posts a picture of Tony Blair taking a selfie with what looks like a huge oil refinery blast behind him… smoke, fireballs…. total destruction. You get the imagery right? The caption reads…. ME AT ARMAGEDDON. I nearly posted yup, there go billions of people dead and you post a self righteous picture of yourself. I was so trucking mad. These people only think of themselves. So done with it all. Off out for a massage now in the place right opposite the home where they will be having field service. I hope they see me. 9:15 appointment, 9:30 field service. They will just be arriving.
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Winston Smith says:
January 30, 2016 at 11:09 am
Don’t be too mad at her – her fantasy world is all she has.
Relax and Enjoy your massage.
Massage makes me think of my one friend who would always get massages…with happy endings: he’s an elder now! Then there were may friends who would go to strip clubs after the convention in whatever city we happened to be holding it in. I always wondered if they wore their badge cards. You know you were supposed to advertise the convention. Strippers need God too. But I digress, getting off topic.
WS
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Tara says:
January 30, 2016 at 12:49 pm
My massage was very therapeutic… :) I noticed the coffee shop parking lots were full on my way home. Its a tad chilly here in BC this am. I guess they went for break early.
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Tara says:
January 30, 2016 at 12:52 pm
Oh! I just re read your comment ….. bah ha ha
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anonymous4 says:
January 30, 2016 at 2:20 pm
Sorry, can’t resist:
Did they go to those strip joints to see the “governing body”?
Was that elder exercising his “rod of discipline”?
Hey, if Jesus hung out with prostitutes,……..?
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anonymous4 says:
January 30, 2016 at 2:42 pm
Jehovah’s Witnesses can make fun of a Global massacre like “Armageddon” because they r so detached from reality. It’s like playing a video game, or watching footage of Drone strikes on CNN. No concept of the reality of the situation.
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Daniel Roberts says:
January 30, 2016 at 11:04 am
It’s pretty barmy to think that the GB teach that the 144000 comprise of men AND women – being that the female of the species are considered inferior and generally less suitable for leading others. So.. try this for a head scratcher. The annointed men and women get to keep their respective gender despite being turned into spirit beings . However.. they will lose sexuality along with their physicality – in an enviroment consisting of an entirely male angel underclass who the annointed will rule over with Jesus. But the annointed ones who were female on Earth won’t be allowed to do do any talks from the platform in heaven, and they won’t be allowed to get involved in judicial matters.. and if they want to talk to God they’ll have to get the spiritual equivalent of a teatowel to wear on their non-physical non-existent heads.. or borrow a scarf from someone.
Or.. upon entry to heaven, the prejudice against women no longer applies and they do get to be Kings and Queens for 1000 years before Jesus says ‘Thanks you guys (and Girls) job done. Now off back to Earth and try to be Human again. We have 144000 vacancies available as Gardeners reserved for you which won’t be weird considering you’ve been spiritual royalty for a millennium. Also.. you Queens, we’ve set you up with some husbands who you are not allowed to leave for all of eternity. Remember to be submissive now. Feel free to choose your head scarf on the way out as a token of our gratitude.
OR, Women are not at all allowed to be annointed and the GB are all having a sneaky giggle about it everytime they meet a ‘sister’ who claims to be of the heavenly class. ‘What’s that sister? YES of course YOU will be allowed to rule over the men in heaven – but in the meantime – no… I’m afraid you can’t do the Sunday public talk this week because … well… you are a.. a…a feeeeeeeeeemale. Now please stick this teatowel on your head and say a prayer because I have to leave and there is a baptised brother in the room who despite being only 15 years old still outranks you’.
Seriously – my older brother has disowned his disfellowshipped daughter for this nonsense. It’s painful.
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anonymous4 says:
January 30, 2016 at 2:31 pm
…and sick.
But on the lighter side, maybe upon entry to Heaven, the ladies will have that extra 10% of their brain added on, which they currently lack according to Watchtower, rendering them finally equal to the guys – no spiritual tea towels required!!! lmfao
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anonymous4 says:
January 30, 2016 at 3:17 pm
Fear is a convenient tool to use when u’re raping someone’s mind.
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Alexandria R says:
January 30, 2016 at 5:53 pm
How many G.B. members does it take to change a light bulb?
None. They just sit in the dark and demand you accept the light is on and is new.
J.W.s want to be dumb and gullible.
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Winston Smith says:
January 31, 2016 at 1:50 pm
Nice! LOL.
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Alexandria R says:
January 30, 2016 at 6:36 pm
I want to explain what I really mean by J.W.s want to be dumb and gullible. My brother and I had an argument. His daughter confessed to adultery. She had an affair with her married boss. Her boss left his wife, she left her husband. Three years later they married. My brother is trying to force everyone to believe she and her husband only had sex one time during the time they were seeing each other. I don’t agree because the other man was married at the time and his wife called to ask her to stay away from her husband. My brother got mad, mad, mad, mad because I don’t agree with him. He is believing what he wants to believe to make everything alright in his mind. He is being dumb and gullible. JWs believe what they want to in order to make things alright in their own minds. The lastest thing that happened is I had to call C.P.S. on my brother’s daughter because she gives her ten month old baby to much alcohol to drink. She gives the baby beer from the beer bottle and then right afterwards she gives him red wine to drink. We had an argument about it. She made fun of me to my face, afterwards I went home and I called C.P.S. They think I called CPS because of the adultery issue. That isn’t why I called. Mario is the name of the case worker. He went to her older son’s elementary school and interviewed him and it was confirmed. The end result is she had to promise to no longer give alcohol to the kids because it is illegal where I live.
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Alexandria R says:
January 30, 2016 at 6:47 pm
Just know that when you are dealing with JW family members you are dealing with idiots. Be firm and be kind. But be firm at the same time.
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anonymous4 says:
January 30, 2016 at 6:56 pm
Common sense is not very common.
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Man from the lions pit says:
January 30, 2016 at 11:55 pm
Thank you John for your article.
Well researched and written!
Without reading all the comments below which are many I dare to add mine.
If the child is born we do already know that one day he/ she will die.This is inevitable consequences of “phenomena call life” on universal scale.Everything has its own time.And this will go on until time when the “supreme force of this universe” will decide to change it. So everybody knows that baby will die just nobody knows when.
So if we will apply same logic to the existence of our world or human kind we can identify our self with views of many “elite intellectuals and minds of this world” which predicts or expect the same conclusion of things.
Which is the death/end of this “word,structure or system as we know”.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/28/stephen-hawking-humanity-1000-years_n_7160870.html
The point is that the current trends are not sustainable or even not reversible or unstoppable so the predictable and logical conclusion is the before mention end.
The point which I want to make is that even WT made it’s prediction somewhere within these imaginary boundaries of “end game” which would be not extraordinary of its own.They were not first or last to do so.Simply put they kind believed that the “baby will die one day .”
The problem in WT case started when they tried to predict the “when” day will come and this failed prediction make them “false prophets”. On top of that they implemented “mind enforcement policies of their ideas” which makes them cult a like or simply put a cult.And the result at best just affected life of millions at worst ruined life of millions…. life like yours or my.
Non of this changes the fact the the time is running.
The clock is still there and time is still clinking. Generations are gone with the time and generations are still on the way.How many or if any ?
The “grand time keeper knows the answer.” I do not.
Anyhow best wishes to you John and all who maintaining and participating for this web.
peace
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redundant briefcases says:
January 31, 2016 at 1:51 am
just thinking how relaxing it is NOT TO have to get up at 6am on a Sunday morning to finish the wt!.. ( with experience you realise that as long as there is plenty of underlining with different colours and the odd scripture written at 45 degrees , then that is more than sufficient to have convinced brother Dobber that you’re a keen student….
I digress ..sorry cedars.. slap my wrist..but humour is essential on Sunday mornings now as one plans a CONSTRUCTIVE day.
I was just glancing down the comments when I came across the rise in memorial partakers…..got me thinking perhaps we could accelerate this thought of How would the GB explain it , if the number exceeded 144000.
WE’LL. ..just throwing it out there but how about all who are on this website plus all your friends etc..turn up this march/ April at local KH….don’t go having had dinner…enjoy some bread ..little sip of wine…then 6 months later read about yourself with a new light explanation of how 222000 partook this year!!
funny though!!
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Tara says:
January 31, 2016 at 8:27 am
I don’t even think I will be going this year.
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anonymous4 says:
January 31, 2016 at 1:51 pm
I’m thinking of going, like making a “comeback”, then chugging the whole glass of wine & cramming all the bread on the plate into my face, then running out screaming, “I’m anointed! I’m anointed!”
– Then go home & wait for the men in the white suits to show up. lol
Reply
Tara says:
January 31, 2016 at 4:58 pm
Bah ha ha now I would pay to see that.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 31, 2016 at 5:51 pm
I’ll send u the bill.
No extra charge for doing a couple of laps around the hall before I run out, giving people the finger & yelling, “F*** you – I’m anointed!!!”
Bad Penny says:
February 1, 2016 at 5:37 pm
Chuckle, chuckle, love it!
This could be the video of the year if you could do it!
Probably men in black suits though??
Reply
anonymous4 says:
February 1, 2016 at 8:25 pm
lol Could start a new genre on YouTube – JW Pranks
Bad Penny says:
February 1, 2016 at 6:30 pm
Tara – Don’t be intimidated into going through any ‘guilt’ you may feel. I guess we’ve all been there!
We did some research on the Memorial last year and found out that JWs always celebrate it on the Jewish Passover evening. Jesus, however, celebrated the ‘evening meal’ with his disciples the night before ‘Passover’, so the date JWs use has been incorrect for years. The whole thing has been meaningless, and as for pushing away the emblems, that’s a whole new ball game for discussion!
Reply
Idontknowhatodo says:
January 31, 2016 at 4:25 am
Oh ruthlee I feel so much the same….my experience is so much like yours…I have had a bit of love bombing this week with various visitors and phone calls wanting to encourage me back to the thing I am desperately trying to fade from… their love always has an agenda and it is the underlying message of judgement I cant stand…I have come close to writing a letter but seeing my spouse off to the meeting this morning looking so heartbroken that I was not going as well just made me feel I have to fade not flee…but oh what a desperate situation they put you in…I literally detest the lies and hypocrisy and the life I have wasted…I would love to not feel bitter…but Im afraid that the loss of life potential has meant call me Mara…which means bitterness…I hope you understand what Im trying to say ruthlee.
Reply
Winston Smith says:
January 31, 2016 at 6:17 am
@idontknoewhattodo
“seeing my spouse off to the meeting this morning looking so heartbroken that I was not going as well”
Keep in mind all the lies that they are told about those who leave: people only leave the organization because they are materialistic, want the things of the world, want to have immoral sex, etc. No one ever leaves because their conscience no longer lets them believe the lies anymore.
My wife had much of the same reaction as you describe when I first started fading. Based on the watchtower lies she assumed that I was going to leave her (or already was cheating, etc.). After some time she realized this was not the case and more or less accepted things. There is still tension from time to time. I find she gets more upset that I won’t go to JW social gatherings rather than meetings.
But my point is hang in there. It will eventually get easier.
WS
Reply
ruthlee says:
January 31, 2016 at 9:10 am
Thanks Idontknowwhattodo it’s a funny ol’ life.My hubby has the renewed energy to get involved in the foreign field so I see less and less of him. That’s ok but sad, also he is running out of excuses for me I can only be ill and in pain for so long I just don’t want involvement and want to fade .Had a nosy bro phone me last week at 10’45pm to find out where I was. it is not genuine no matter what they say. I know what you mean by Mara. I think I would go down the letter route but the devastation to my hubby would be too much and that causes me so much grief. It is only when you really realise how imprisoned and entrenched we are that the repercussions upon our family finally sink in. I would top myself this time if it wasn’t for the fact I have family that I love I just hate this life . That just goes to show it is a doomsday cult because i’m going nowhere fast and if the cong I attend knew how I really feel they would chuck me out anyway so its a lose lose situation. The conclusion of the matter is watchtower has won in the end because people like us who have such grim days are collateral damage and they don’t give a flying f**k for us . That is why Cedars and the writers and contributors to this site do so much healing to my broken soul. The humour and witty banter and the progressive way of untangling WT rubbish doctrine counteracts my dark dog days and frittered away life. One last point for today. I did say to hubby actually if your god was listening to the clowns of Brooklyn then the big A would have come along by now he and they would not be so powerless to have prevaricated for so long it is just not logical. my thought anyway. thanks idkwtd. ruthlee
Reply
Holy Connoli says:
February 1, 2016 at 4:45 am
@Idon’tknowwhattodo? Can you ahev a open discussion with your mate? Will he listen to you or will he just freak out at what you are saying and close his ears? I know the feeling. My wife has been going to meetings for over 20 years without me. She is used to it but we could never have an open discussion. She screams and freaks out if I DARE say anything negative about the religion. It is a war zone to discuss. I am serious. She totally freaks out and screams and yells.I think it is better for you to fade than write a letter.
Reply
Idontknowhatodo says:
February 1, 2016 at 9:08 am
My husband is the lovliest person in the world until someone challenges held beliefs and information from the organization… his lovely handsome and kibd face changes and he sneers and curles his lip at me if I proffess doubts…so I dont go there…I just have a feeling that after 35 years of marriage he knows and is scared to open that door… all my children have left home… they are all jws… I dont think I could cope with them shunning me…my husband loves me very much and wouldnt leave me but it would change things irrevocably between us… I choose to just mention the odd little thing now and again … he hates it so we just live with the proverbial elephant in the room… like ruthlee I just hste this hand I have been dealt and cannot believe how duped I have been for the majority of my 57 years…I love reading ruthlee’s posts…they describe my life as well as hers… my husband would be stunned if he saw all the ARC sittings…but I dont think he ever would…he would disintigrate… Thats why ultimately…I dont know what to do.
Reply
Grace says:
February 1, 2016 at 2:29 pm
I have come to the conclusion that some need to hold on to the belief because of fear of death. I think that it’s hard to face the ultimate truth about life for some people. So having a fantasy about life after death or not dying at all is something that keeps a person from sinking into depression. At least that’s what I went through when we lost our daughter. The reality that she was dead without another option was too much for me to bear at the time.
The other thing that I’ve noticed about those that are trying to draw us back in, is that they’re doing it for selfish reasons. I just think that they need us there to confirm their faith(fantasy). I suppose it falls under the groupthink thing, the numbers validate. Because if you dare walk away, it triggers their doubts so they want you to be their to support their fantasy not because they truly believe that they are saving you.
Otherwise they wouldn’t shun people like us, they would still be visiting & just being normal towards us but we become a threat to them even if we don’t say anything because their protecting their own fantasy.
I often remind myself of the fact that if I were ever stupid enough to go back, things would just go back to the same old same old. The love bombing when they first see me, then that would wear off & the judgement would start, then the pressure to perform. Yuck!
It’s an unhealthy religion thats why so many people in it are sick & depressed.
Reply
dee2 says:
January 31, 2016 at 10:28 am
NEW LIGHT! NEXT DATE FOR ARMAGEDDON!
What if the GB were to link the start of the gentile times to 70AD instead of to 607 BC? – 70AD being the second destruction of the temple (607 BC is the WT’s erroneous date for the first destruction of the temple).
After all, Jesus did say: “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near… and Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled’ (Luke 21:20, 24). This seems to make 70AD a possible starting point for the gentile times although Jerusalem was being trampled on by gentiles since the destruction of the first temple in 586/587 BC.
Then if we do the math according to WT calculus by adding 2520 years to 70AD instead of to 607BC, that takes us to 2590AD instead of 1914AD. Voila! New date for Christ’s Second coming and Armageddon!
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 31, 2016 at 1:58 pm
OMG – Can’t wait!!!
– No, literally.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 31, 2016 at 5:58 pm
…By then, it will be Planet of the Apes. lol
Reply
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← The Friday Column: Watchtower, genocide, and armageddon
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Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Doomsday Clock
Posted on January 29, 2016
In 1947 the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists featured a clock on the cover of its magazine which came to be known as the “Doomsday Clock.” While World War II had ended, the threat of global nuclear warfare had just begun. Tension between the United States and the Soviet Union escalated in 1949 when the Soviets detonated a bomb in central Asia, causing international concern. The Bulletin Scientists moved the symbolic minute hand from seven minutes to midnight to 3 minutes before midnight, indicating just how close they felt the world was to a possible nuclear holocaust.
Throughout the years the minute hand has ticked back and forth with world events as scientists have monitored the arms buildup of the superpowers. In time, the “Doomsday Clock” became linked with the term “doomsday cult.”
Cover of Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, February 1958
Cover of Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, February 1958
1975
By the year 1975, Jehovah’s Witnesses began to take notice of this clock, publishing its time on a regular basis in an effort to highlight the urgency of the “last days”. This timing was no coincidence, as Watchtower vice-president Frederick Franz had predicted back in 1966 that 1975 would mark the end of 6000 years of mankind’s existence, kicking off the 1000 year reign of Christ. This would mean that 1975 would also bring about God’s personal doomsday, Armageddon.
"Life Everlasting" book prediction of 1975 as the likely onset of Armageddon
“Life Everlasting” book prediction of 1975 as the likely onset of Armageddon
The Doomsday Clock seemed to add weight to these predictions.
The Awake! magazine of February 8, 1975 stated:
ON AUGUST 25, 1974, the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists moved its front-cover “doomsday clock” three minutes closer to midnight. These scientists thus signaled their fear that the threat of nuclear holocaust recently grew by that much, bringing the clock to nine minutes before midnight.
However, those who are aware of the clock’s history know that, since 1947 when the atomic scientists started it ticking, their clock has moved eight times, but in both directions.
Many people believe that the course of history is very similar to that “doomsday clock.” They say that crises come and crises go but somehow mankind always muddles through. Their outlook is just what a discerning prophet 1,900 years ago said it would be: “Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”—2 Pet. 3:4
On the one hand, Witnesses were frightened by the impending doom and ominous nature of the nuclear threat, while simultaneously being told that the vacillation of the clock’s hands proves that mankind is deceived into thinking that the end of the world was not imminent.
The year 1975 came and went without major incident, and this disappointment was devastating to many Jehovah’s Witnesses, causing a radical drop in membership and financial ruin for many who had pinned their hopes on this date.
Amazingly, the Watchtower’s Governing Body brushed aside this theocratic defeat and went right back to disseminating messages of doom for all of the word’s governments, all religions (except JWs), and any person not associated with Jehovah’s Witnesses.
On June 8, 1981, the Awake! magazine excitedly announced that the Doomsday Clock had moved closer to the midnight hour:
BACK IN 1947, atomic scientists concerned about nuclear war invented a “doomsday clock” to dramatize their fears. The clock has since become the best known symbol of the publication “Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists.” Should the hands of the clock reach midnight, it will mean that nuclear war has begun.
Recently the position of the hands was set ahead—from seven minutes before midnight to only four minutes to that hour. Quite a jump! The hands have been moved only 10 times in 33 years.
Why do the scientists think the world is now getting closer to nuclear war? Because of the failure of the SALT II arms treaty and because of each side’s stated willingness to fight a “limited” nuclear war.
1984
By 1984, Jehovah’s Witnesses were inundated with articles and books which declared that Armageddon was imminent, citing its infamous “generations” teaching along with fear of global nuclear war. The March 22 1984 Awake! announced:
The “doomsday clock,” a feature of the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, was advanced another minute last January to three minutes before midnight… The “Bulletin Clock” has been advanced and set back through the years to indicate the intensity of “the threat of nuclear doomsday hovering over humanity.” The present move to three minutes before midnight is the closest in 30 years
The summer of 1984 saw the release of the book “Survival into a New Earth,” generating even more anticipation that the end was extremely close, and once again the clock was mentioned.
Survival Book
Survival into a New Earth, Published in 1984
The final chapter was titled The Countdown Nears its Zero Hour! Note the recycled words from the 1981 Awake!:
survivalp183-600
If you were one of Jehovah’s Witnesses back in 1984, no doubt chills ran up and down your spine as you read those words. There was no misunderstanding – we were living in the very LAST part of the LAST days, and every Witness knew that the end was imminent. Fred Franz was the living embodiment of the 1914 Generation teaching, using the last few years of his life in a last-gasp attempt to convince millions of Witnesses that Armageddon would arrive before his contemporaries died.
survivalp184p5-600
The Survival Book reinforces the “Generation” doctrine
By the end of 1984, the Watchtower organization had taken ownership of their own doomsday timepiece, capitalizing on this concept by featuring a countdown clock on the cover of the October 22nd Awake! Were they trading on the fear of an imminent nuclear conflict? Judge for yourself:
PROMINENT people in all parts of the world are, indeed, coming to the conclusion that time is running out. The forces that constantly push the nations toward the brink of nuclear war register in their minds like screaming alarm sirens. The danger of global economic collapse and the many forms of deadly environmental pollution add to their uneasiness. They sense that time is running out not just for a few nations but for the entire world. Why? Because none of them can come up with solutions that really work.
Their greatest concern is the threat of nuclear war. Earlier this year, in harmony with the advice of 47 scientists, including 18 Nobel prize winners, the monthly Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists moved its “doomsday clock” forward one minute—to three minutes before midnight. The clock represents how close they believe the world is to a nuclear conflagration. “It is an expression of alarm,” they state. The “doomsday clock” is now the nearest it has been to midnight in 30 years!
October 22, 1984 Awake Magazine
October 22, 1984 Awake Magazine features its own Doomsday Clock
1995
Unfortunately for the Watchtower organization and loyal Jehovah’s Witnesses, the clock wound down, expiring in yet another embarrassing end-of-times failed prediction. Fred Franz finally passed away in 1992, leaving behind a mountain of Biblical interpretations which would take years for the organization to unravel. Just 3 years after his death, the 1995 Watchtower discarded the previous “Generation” teaching and replaced it with with what they called a more “precise” doctrine.
November 1, 1995 Watchtower discards previous generation teaching
November 1, 1995 Watchtower discards previous generation teaching, claims to have “precise” viewpoint
This 1995 Watchtower article reveals a key contradiction which has plagued the Witness organization since its origin. “Jehovah has revealed to us…” the things which “must shortly take place”, yet Jehovah’s Witnesses have somehow misinterpreted God’s personal revelations dozens of times. Is it really plausible that the Almighty would personally communicate sacred secrets to one religious organization, yet do so inaccurately every time?
Using language such as “terminal ruination”, “critical” and “urgency”, the Governing Body has continued to wield fear as a tool to steer the lives of millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and the Doomsday Clock is still mentioned repeatedly in Watchtower and Awake! articles.
Witnesses – Doomsday Prophets?
It is a fallacy and a deception to proclaim that Jehovah’s Witnesses are not doomsday prophets. By most definitions, “doomsday” represents destruction and death, which is EXACTLY what Witnesses preach. However, in an effort to draw individuals into the religion and minimize the damaging portions of the doctrine, the organization describes the very controversial topic of Armageddon and doomsday in a highly conflicting manner. In the May 1st 2015 Watchtower, the organization addressed this topic on page 7:
DOOMSDAY PROPHETS? Jehovah’s Witnesses are not doomsday prophets. They have been sharing a positive message about the future for over one hundred years. For example, their 1958 convention talk, “God’s Kingdom Rules—Is the World’s End Near?” explained that“God’s kingdom comes, not to destroy this earth, but to destroy Satan’s world. God’s kingdom comes, not to burn up this earth, but to bring to pass God’s will here on earth as well
as in heaven. For that reason the earth is worth preserving as God’s creation; and God will preserve it for all eternity.”
The clever strategy mentioned above has been used for decades to divert attention away from the massive decimation of human life by declaring that the Earth will be secure forever and will never face annihilation. Does the declaration of the Earth’s preservation absolve Jehovah’s Witnesses of the title “Doomsday Prophets”? Hardly.
In the very same 2015 Watchtower, it is later revealed that there WILL be significant loss of life:
The Bible informs us that the end will involve destruction:
“There will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now . . . In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved.” (Matthew 24:21,22) But God promises us that many humans will survive: “The world is passing away . . . , but the one who does the will of God remains forever.”…
The context shows that “all these things” that are to be dissolved include the ruling elements of this corrupt world and all those who choose such rulership rather than God’s.
Rather than following the majority today and ignoring the clear signals that we are living in such important times, we need to “keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah.” Jehovah’s Witnesses can show you from the Bible how
you can be a survivor of this upcoming day
(bold added by editor)
The claim that “many” will survive Armageddon belies the actual JW teaching that MOST will be destroyed – billions of humans eliminated at God’s hand. The implication is clear – unless you are in close association with Jehovah’s Witnesses come judgment day, you will die.
Coming to grips with this conflict is a matter most Witnesses seldom discuss. When they do talk about Armageddon, the official Watchtower policy is often replaced with a more palatable line, something like “Well, Jehovah can read the heart of the individual, and HE makes the final judgment…”
As of January 2016, the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists continues to place its clock at 3 minutes before midnight, right back where it was in 1984. Jehovah’s Witnesses will no doubt continue to exploit the rational fears of their members, and exchange this fear for an Apocalypse where they find themselves on the safe side of the fence.
On a personal level, the Watchtower’s emphasis on mankind’s impending doom deeply impacted my life. I was baptized in 1984 while attending high school, completely immersed in the belief that all of the collective “signs” pointed to the imminent day of God’s anger, Armageddon. Looking back on it, I didn’t know any better, just as the kids 10 years older than me were taken in by the 1975 prediction.
Perhaps the most important reason I was finally able to escape nearly 40 years later was my reflection on the repeating cycles I observed over my lifetime inside the organization. It went something like this:
PREDICT – FAIL – CHANGE DOCTRINE – REPEAT
Not only did I see these repeating patterns for more than 40 years, the real wake-up call was understanding how the latest doctrines were being injected into the minds of the next generation at younger and younger ages. I watched so many teens raise their hands at the Kingdom Hall and recite the current doctrine during the Watchtower Study, believing that they are devouring “spiritual meat”, when in fact so much of what they currently believe is likely to end up in the growing landfill with all of the discarded Watchtower publications.
Watchtower teachings come with an expiration date
Watchtower teachings come with an expiration date
Reflecting on the Watchtower’s use of the Doomsday Clock along with other end-of-the-world predictions might seem academic, but if you are still one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, understanding and escaping the undue influence of this organization might just give you back your life. Check the clock – you still have time.
JR
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← The Friday Column: Watchtower, genocide, and armageddon
The Friday Column: Watchtower and Dinosaurs →
248 Responses to Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Doomsday Clock
← Older Comments
anonymous4 says:
January 31, 2016 at 2:01 pm
I think “The Judge” may be onto us (Resistance / Fifth Column):
“Judge Rutherford Uncovers Fifth Column,” by Judge Rutherford (1940). Published June, 1940 and copyright was not renewed. J.F. Rutherford outlines his view that the Catholic Hierarchy are “attempting to grab control of the nations of the earth.” (pages 5 and 6) Rutherford was president of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (Jehovah’s Witnesses).
LOL
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 31, 2016 at 2:08 pm
Wowwwww – Musta been sommmmme kinda Genius!!!
He ACTUALLY figured out the Catholic Church was attempting to control nations! & as EARLY as 1940! What would we do without the “Faithful & Discreet Slave”???
LMAO
Reply
Tara says:
February 1, 2016 at 5:27 pm
Ah all the weapons the hierarchy had hidden, ready to overthrow the nations…. Is there a copy of this anywhere? I can only find snippets.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
February 2, 2016 at 3:02 pm
No idea. I just stumbled onto it.
Reply
Tara says:
February 2, 2016 at 9:08 pm
Do a bit more stumbling then… chop, chop.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 31, 2016 at 2:16 pm
“Do not fear the Haters. Fear the mobs that follow them.”
“Do not think of failure, & you will succeed.”
& my all-time favorite, succinct & to-the-point, the motto of the British SAS: “Who dares wins”
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 31, 2016 at 2:25 pm
…
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 31, 2016 at 2:28 pm
Special Air Service
Special Air Service badge
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 31, 2016 at 2:39 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uk-sas.svg
Reply
Doc Obvious says:
January 31, 2016 at 2:58 pm
The JW Bacon has expired. Time to give the JW.org bacon back to the butcher. Beautiful picture of the expiration date on package of meat. Very fitting.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 31, 2016 at 5:46 pm
Did u mean the JW Bacon or Beacon? LOL Of course, the Watchtower’s Beacon went out a long time ago.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 31, 2016 at 6:22 pm
Just had an eye-opening convo with Mom, a hardcore JW who still talks to me for some bizarre reason. Maybe ’cause I’m such an awesome dude. LOL Seriously, though, I’m a pretty horrible person. No one should talk to me. EVER. Anyway, back to my point. So, as usual, the convo revolved around the innocuous subject of Current Events, &, as usual, she brings up “Armageddon”. But this time, I agree with her. I say that many people (myself included) do in fact believe that this “system” is nearing its “end”. That seemed to shock her. I don’t think Jehovah’s Witnesses really want this system to end. Hell, for all I know, they could be running the damned thing!!! I’ve kinda seen this B4. JW’s seem to be more frightened of “Armageddon” than anyone else I know!! They seem to enjoy playing the role of “Chicken Little”, running around announcing, “The sky is falling”, for its shock value, then cozying into the coffee shops for a Latte & a good laugh. They LIKE this corrupt system. They’re certainly making the most of it. They LIKE going door-to-door. They LIKE the coffee breaks (most of all). They LIKE the Social Club. Next time u talk to a Witness, conduct a little experiment. See if u can make them p*ss their pants by declaring that “The End” (or “Armageddon” or whatever) is SURE to come within 6 months MAX, like u REALLY mean it. Watch their reaction. U may be surprised.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 31, 2016 at 7:04 pm
Just happened to be Googling Chuck Norris. Found this really worthwhile & uplifting Code for his Martial Art, Chun Kuk Do (“The Universal Way”):
Like many other martial arts, Chun Kuk Do includes a code of honor and rules to live by. These rules are from Chuck Norris’ personal code. They are:[4]
I will develop to the maximum of my potential.
I will forget the mistakes of the past, and press on to greater achievements.
I will continually work at developing love, happiness, and loyalty to my family.
I will look for the good in everyone, and make them feel worthwhile.
If I have nothing good to say about a person, I will say nothing.
I will always be as enthusiastic about the success of others as I am about my own.
I will maintain an attitude of open-mindedness.
I will maintain respect for those in authority, and demonstrate this respect at all times.
I will always remain loyal to my God, my country, my family, and my friends.
I will remain highly goal-oriented throughout my life; a positive attitude helps my family, my country and myself.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
January 31, 2016 at 7:11 pm
PS Don’t be dissuaded by the fact that there are EXACTLY 10. lol
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anonymous4 says:
January 31, 2016 at 7:14 pm
The New 10 Commandments? Whaddya say??
How ’bout The 10 Recommendations? Less intrusive.
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Winston Smith says:
January 31, 2016 at 8:59 pm
Great set of standards. Chuck Norris is awesome. Sometime do a search on YouTube for “Hitler finds out Chuck Norris is coming.” Or I’ll find it and add the link in the morning. Night all.
WS
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anonymous4 says:
January 31, 2016 at 10:45 pm
OMG!!! I have seen ALL of the “Hitler Rants” videos! Totally whack!
Not to mention the Chuck Norris jokes. Just Google Chuck Norris Facts.
anonymous4 says:
January 31, 2016 at 10:55 pm
…Jesus Christ may be able to walk on water, but Chuck Norris can swim through land.
Chuck Norris & Superman once fought on a bet. The loser had to start wearing his underwear on the outside.
When the Bogeyman goes to bed at nite, he checks his closet for Chuck Norris.
Alexandria R says:
January 31, 2016 at 11:05 pm
A man is talking to God. “God, how long is a million years?” God answers, “To me, it’s about a minute.” “God, how much is a million dollars?” “To me, it’s a penny.” “God, may I have a penny?” “Wait a minute.”
anonymous4 says:
February 1, 2016 at 4:42 pm
My dilemma EXACTLY
anonymous4 says:
January 31, 2016 at 11:19 pm
Here’s a respected authority figure talking Religion:
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Jill says:
February 1, 2016 at 3:37 pm
great episode, great message
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anonymous4 says:
February 1, 2016 at 4:58 pm
Just watched it again & noticed something. The Professor says that “without guidance [the new religion] will deteriorate into inquisitions, holy wars, chaos.”
LOL — Looking at our own history, even WITH guidance, religions have routinely deteriorated into inquisitions, holy wars, &chaos!!!
— We’re talking “guidance” up the wazoo! Commandments, regulations, rituals, leaders, popes, overseers, governing bodies, “holy” books, rule books, manuals, etc, etc, etc, & things go South ANYWAY!!!
Maybe the answer is Not so much Godd*mned Micromanagement.
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kittycat says:
February 1, 2016 at 6:19 am
Was just called an apostate in my home by a friendly watchtower disciple, had to inform him that Jesus and Paul were also apostates in their time, thank you for all the support on this site, it is priceless.
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Winston Smith says:
February 1, 2016 at 6:31 am
How rude. These people have no respect for others. Your home is your sanctuary. They need to act like respectful guests. But they are so full of their own self importance that they feel they can ignore basic human decency.
(I am, of course, drawing the conclusion that this was a visitor and not a family member)
Sorry to hear that you had to go through this. But glad you were able to give an answer to their accusations.
WS
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Openmind says:
February 1, 2016 at 8:26 am
Hi – along these same lines. A while back my parents, very active JW’s, father an elder, were visiting our home. I, disassociated for a long time, my husband never a JW but tolerant if not preached to. A couple of JW’s who knew my parents very well were passing by and noticed my parents’ car and knocked to ask if they could come in to see them. In their time they had been special pioneers but gone on to have family they were proud of because they gave all to Jehovah.
After accepting our hospitality for a good hour they prepared to leave. It was me who saw them to the door and as they were leaving I said maybe I would see them around the neighbourhood, as you do. However, as they walked away the sister said to me ‘not if armageddon comes first because you’ll be dead’! I was too taken aback to give a fitting response!
It’s so hard not to be bitter with these arrogant people and their air of superiority. I now feel pity for that particular sister. Her husband has since, very sadly, died. Her family disfellowshipped, I assume by their lifestyles for immorality. But hey, who do you think is the happy one – me, balanced, free life with great family and real friends, or her.
What pathetic lives these people have.
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Winston Smith says:
February 1, 2016 at 10:14 am
The principle that ‘you reap what you sow’ tends to hold true no matter what your take is on the scriptures. The folks I recall being the most judgemental and holier than thou always seemed to end up the worse off in the end.
WS
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Grace says:
February 1, 2016 at 2:53 pm
God they are so rude! That is just so tacky to say any of that. What Bogans!!!
anonymous4 says:
February 1, 2016 at 3:57 pm
ditto
They obviously haven’t heard the song R-E-S-P-E-C-T.
BTW, do u think they would use that kind of language with a member of the public? Nooooooot Bloody Likely!!!
-though I do remember an old, old story from my youth: A lady in our Cong knew of a sister who got in a heated debate with someone at the door. As she walked away, she yelled back, “Your blood will be on this sidewalk at Armageddon!!!” LOL But I would say that was an exception to their usual “nice” behavior.
James Broughton says:
February 1, 2016 at 8:33 am
It is interesting to ask the Witnesses what they believe about the teachings of their founder Charles Taze Russell who died 100 years ago. They no longer believe much of his teaching. Then ask what do you think he would say about their current beliefs? (No doubt he would describe them as apostate.) Whilst knowledge and understanding changes, truth does not.
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Alexandria R says:
February 1, 2016 at 12:20 pm
James B., My sister says the society teaches Russell is in heaven so he knows what is being taught today and he smiles on them. She says it’s great they shed so much new light recently. That’s Gullible and dumb.
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Pow says:
February 1, 2016 at 12:56 pm
Pow,
How about C.T.R’s wife Mary is she in heaven?
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Pow says:
February 1, 2016 at 1:06 pm
For that matter how about Rutherford’s wife is she in heaven also? If so did she forgive the judge for exile into oblivion, into a little house in L.A. while he partied like Hugh Hefner in the original playboy mansion in San Diego?
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anonymous4 says:
February 1, 2016 at 4:06 pm
Then again, instead of smiling, Russell could be tearing his hair out. After all, he can see us, but we can’t see him, right? Alexandria, u should tell ur sister that. lol
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Pow says:
February 1, 2016 at 9:51 am
Hello Average Joe, I have a go-bag story for you, I was tied up with congregation responalblitys over the weekend so it a while to get back here…anyway, a few years ago when go-bags where all the rage. A brother and his wife go and get decked out with all the goods..pack, sleeping bag, tent, stove,.water purifier, …..then begin wondering if they are physically fit to use them,,well he talks another brother into a little test, a day trip maybe 1 mile in and back….turns out it was a little too much and He barely makes it out after the second bro. Had to ferry all the gear out himself then physically assists the first brother out. Sooo if the GT. Is less then 8 hours long and occurs on a gorgeous summer day and the escape hike is less then 1.5 miles these go packs might just be the hot ticket.
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anonymous4 says:
February 1, 2016 at 4:10 pm
LOL
Probably a victim of Hollywood. Everything looks sooooo easy in the movies!
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Holy Connoli says:
February 2, 2016 at 5:39 am
@pow! What is this Go-bag a lot of you refer to? I am a 20 plus year fader but my wife is an Super Duper believe all JW pioneer and Metro “Apple Cart” pusher. I saw reference to it and asked her about iot but did not get a clear answer. Funny, I never heard much about it at all. Is there anything in writing about it in the WT? Were they pushing the go-bag everywhere or just a few places?
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Tara says:
February 2, 2016 at 7:50 am
We had talks on it and have an actual cong. file given to all minions with info on what to store, pack and do in the ‘event’ of the ‘event’…. This was put together in 2013 and contains emergency phone numbers for certain ones in the hall, Steps for all publishers to take in preparation. It goes on to list what is needed in an emergency supply kit, what to have in your car at all times. We are told to take a first aid course, what foods to pack for at least three days, how much water to have on standby, communication knowledge.
WT 2011 Dec. 1 pp 6-7 Coping with Natural Disasters is included.
Awake 1996 June 22 p 17.
WT 11 12/1 pp. 6 -7.
Awake 9/07 pp. 4-7…. Is God responsible?
It is also full of pamphlets on what to do in a local natural disaster.
This was issued I believe, to all in BC.
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anonymous4 says:
February 2, 2016 at 3:19 pm
I can’t wait for the Weapons Training!!! LOL Sorry, too much coffee.
PS For anyone interested in this stuff, I recommend these shows:
Man vs Wild (with Bear Grylls (ex-SAS))
Surviving Disaster (with Cade Courtley (ex-SEAL))
& The SAS Survival Handbook by John Wiseman
-covering EVERYTHING, incl. nuclear attack, terror attack, chemical/bio disasters, outdoor survival (obviously), AND the best goodies to pack in ur Kit.
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anonymous4 says:
February 2, 2016 at 3:26 pm
Worst-Case Scenario with Bear Grylls.
…Sorry though, nothing about Alien Invasion or Zombie Apocalypse. If that happens, looks like we’re on our own.
Tara says:
February 2, 2016 at 9:11 pm
You missed Who Dares Wins with Lewis Collins. Bravo Two Zero with Sean Bean…..
Winston Smith says:
February 3, 2016 at 8:04 am
@Tara
Did Sean Bean play Boromir in LOTR?
WS
Tara says:
February 3, 2016 at 2:07 pm
Yes he did and yes he died.
Winston Smith says:
February 3, 2016 at 7:08 pm
Boromir died, not the actor Sean Bean, right?
Faramir became prince of Ithillien and wedded Eowyn of Rohan.
WS
Tara says:
February 4, 2016 at 8:03 am
No the real Sean Bean is alive and kicking and yes, about Faramir :)
anonymous4 says:
February 2, 2016 at 8:58 pm
If my brain’s memory’s chronology is correct, the WT Snakes were just piggybacking on advice already put out by Federal governments, & trying to take some of the glory. I’m pretty sure the GoBag recommendation was put out by the govts 1st, perhaps as a reaction to Katrina, or Terrorism.
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anonymous4 says:
February 2, 2016 at 9:07 pm
I remember an elder smugly declaring from the platform, “Don’t worry, if something happens, we’ll take care of you.” Seriously??? I pictured the COBE flying a Search-&-Rescue helicopter to my residence, & this pasty little idiot rappelling down to dig me out of the rubble. LMFAO What a joke!!!
Pow says:
February 3, 2016 at 11:38 am
Right, so when we reach Def con 4, we can hid under our school desks, or head into the wilderness to live like jeriamiah johnson but, instead of fighting Indians we’ll be fighting mad survivalist. Hey, this is a great movie plot. Think pacifist jw turns Rambo…
Winston Smith says:
February 3, 2016 at 12:47 pm
@Pow
Your movie plot idea reminds me of a documentary where they interviewed US veteran of WWII. He had been raised baptist and taught that killing was wrong. Shortly after he was stationed overseas (Philippines I beleive) he and another soldier were attacked in an air raid. They were hiding out in a ditch when one of the enemy pilots came back for a strafing run. Shot the soldier next to him to pieces and he could see the pilot smiling and laughing while doing it. Said he didn’t see much of a problem with killing after that.
Pacifism is usually situational. Put someone in the right circumstances and they can become a cold blooded killer. Survival instinct.
WS
Winston Smith says:
February 3, 2016 at 12:53 pm
@A4
Read Between the lines and the elder’s promise seems to state ‘Don’t worry BIG BROTHER will take care of you.’
WS
anonymous4 says:
February 3, 2016 at 7:15 pm
lol Good one.
PS I agree, there’s no such animal as a Pacifist. Usually just a convenient way to get someone ELSE to do the fighting, then reap the benefits. Kinda like Hollywood. Reminds me of a South Park episode showing how there’s always 1 group pro-war, & 1 group anti-war. That way the U.S. (or whoever) can make war at will, while still seeming to have a “conscience”, always appearing as the “Good Guys” who make war, but feel “bad” about it. Like I said, anyone who believes in Pacifists may as well believe in Unicorns. lol
anonymous4 says:
February 3, 2016 at 7:41 pm
@ POW
I like ur movie idea. “Watchtower” in 1 hand, AK47 in the other. lol BTW Interesting coincidink – last nite, I watched a movie about a Priest (Baptist Minister or something) in the ’60s, who came home, found wifey doing the nasty with another dude, and shot them both. Got off, though, ’cause it was a “crime of passion” or whatever. What to do now? Well, he joined the Marines, went to Vietnam, & really did become a cold-blooded killer – a good 1 – became a Sergeant or something – led a fragmented, lost unit on 1 particular difficult & dangerous mission. Sorry, can’t provide the title, only caught it about halfway thru. But at the end was a write-up for each surviving character, what they did after the war, so I guess it was a true story. Looks like someone beat u to the punch. lol
anonymous4 says:
February 3, 2016 at 8:24 pm
Following up on all the Survival stuff, here is an awesome SAS lesson in PsyOps — anti-mind-control – Interrogation Resistance.
Enjoy.
Alexandria R says:
February 1, 2016 at 12:27 pm
The reason JWs believe the overlapping generation teaching and believed the doomsday prediction dates given in the past is because the society is good at getting people to ignore their own personal boundaries. That’s how they lose their critical thinking skills.
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anonymous4 says:
February 1, 2016 at 4:19 pm
Good point. It’s not a collection of individuals. It’s just a big glob. That’s what happens when boundaries disintegrate. THE BORG
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anonymous4 says:
February 1, 2016 at 4:24 pm
Here’s an interesting quote by Dave Allen illustrating the 2-Faced nature of charlatans like the WT Snakes
Religious views[edit]
He was a religious sceptic[1] (according to Allen, “what you might call a practising atheist”, and often joked, “I’m an atheist, thank God”) as a result of his deeply held objections to the rigidity of his strict Catholic schooling. Consequently, religion became an important subject for his humour, especially the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of England, generally mocking church customs and rituals rather than beliefs. In 1998 he explained:
“The hierarchy of everything in my life has always bothered me. I’m bothered by power. People, whoever they might be, whether it’s the government, or the policeman in the uniform, or the man on the door – they still irk me a bit. From school, from the first nun that belted me – people used to think of the nice sweet little ladies … they used to knock the fuck out of you, in the most cruel way that they could. They’d find bits of your body that were vulnerable to intense pain – grabbing you by the ear, or by the nose, and lift you, and say ‘Don’t cry!’ It’s very hard not to cry. I mean, not from emotion, but pain. The priests were the same. And I sit and watch politicians with great cynicism, total cynicism.”
At the end of his act, Allen always raised his glass and quietly toasted his audience with the words “Goodnight, thank you, and may your God go with you,”[2] an original and inclusive catchphrase that typified Allen’s amiable style.
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anonymous4 says:
February 1, 2016 at 4:34 pm
Another 1 of his jokes I like is: “God must love Atheists. We never ask Him for anything.”
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Alexandria R says:
February 1, 2016 at 6:13 pm
I love Dave Allen. I loved his joke about the mother superior who got up on the wrong side of the bed. A nun asked her Mother superior, did you get up from the wrong side of the bed this morning? Mother superior says No my child, why do you ask? The nun answered, “Because I was wondering why you’re wearing the bishop’s shoes.” I love that joke.
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Bad Penny says:
February 1, 2016 at 6:15 pm
Great article John –
I remember 1984, it was the year I got baptised.
The Survival Book, the Doomsday clock, yes, it brings it all back.
The evidence seemed convincing enough then, no wonder I wanted to jump in the pool. I really thought we were all doomed!!
If only there had been the internet, if only there had been JW Survey! We may have been saved from the cult. At least this generation has the ability to check things out.
You only get one shot at life, I have spent thirty years in ‘spiritual imprisonment’ – you get less for murder! Now my shoulders are crippled up with arthritis – probably due to carrying heavy book bags around, and the future is not looking so bright. I hate Watchtower for telling me lies.
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kittycat says:
February 3, 2016 at 6:02 am
Hi Penny,
Enjoy your freedom. Wishing you boundless blessings in this new phase of your journey.
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Bad Penny says:
February 4, 2016 at 5:23 pm
Thanks kittycat –
I’m still waiting for the boundless blessings. Freedom from the WT is good, the problem is the void left in my life from lack of friends. I always thought we would have friends forever in the cult. Now we are shunned. This is why it is so good to have JW Survey to talk to unknown friends who are in the same boat. Just wish we could all meet up for a coffee and hugs!
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anonymous4 says:
February 1, 2016 at 8:44 pm
Public ignorance of the bible is phenomenal. I mean, most people know the basics – Adam & Eve & Satan the talking snake, Noah, & Moses. I remember as a kid, watching Cecil B. DeMille’s classic The Ten Commandments, & being quite impressed. I believe the closing scene portrayed Moses (Charlton Heston, who also did the voice of “Yahweh”, btw) gazing past the Jordan into the “promised land”. Too bad they didn’t tell u what happened AFTER the Israelites crossed the Jordan. Like in a sequel — The Ten Commandments II – The Ten Genocides. No films were made about all the hacking, piercing, massacring, pillaging, burning, & baby-killing that went on on the OTHER side of the Jordan River. Convenient. All those accounts r snugly buried within the bowels of the Old Testament, where none but the devout care to peruse.
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Winston Smith says:
February 2, 2016 at 12:02 pm
A4,
I think the world outside the JWs is more sensitive to such atrocities, so they intentionally leave that kind of stuff out. They especially don’t want to frighten or expose the children to it. The Watchtower puts it all right in their children’s textbook with all the gory details (they do clean it up somewhat – Shechem forced Dinah to lie down with him rather raped or violated her).
Most non-JWs are content with the basics and don’t do much more in depth study. A few do. So I guess that’s something good about their org: you do know the scripture well, even if it is with their specific JW slant.
WS
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anonymous4 says:
February 1, 2016 at 11:11 pm
Speaking of Doomsday, I just watched Spaced Invaders (1990) on youtube. TERRIFYING. lol
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Tara says:
February 2, 2016 at 7:53 am
I watched the X FILES……..
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anonymous4 says:
February 2, 2016 at 3:39 pm
U want Doomsday? I’ll give u Doomsday!
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Alexandria R says:
February 2, 2016 at 5:05 pm
That’s My kind of movie. It’s great.
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rob says:
February 3, 2016 at 9:24 am
I remember when there was a talk with “new light” at an assembly or an article in the watchtower and then afterwards the phones would start ringing and people would be calling each other talking about the new light and new understanding and remarking about how exciting this all was.
I guess the many witnesses just live for the hype and for any shred of news as to when armaghedon will come as dictated by the seven men in brooklyn.
Faith and trust not in God or the Bible, but blind faith in seven imperfect men. And it appears that the seven imperfect men are more than happy to keep feeding the rank and file with new light, new understanding.
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anonymous4 says:
February 3, 2016 at 7:23 pm
Reminds me of all the idiots who go on Twitter to see what Angelina Jolie had for breakfast, or what Brad Pitt’s morning bowel movement looked like. lol
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Exhausted says:
February 3, 2016 at 11:13 am
The way the org is tapping in on the youth does not spell
Consistent with the doomsday clock. After all, have you
Seen the new music video??? Totally designed to target
The youthful set. I am in my sixties and already that age
Group has been sent out to pasture.
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anonymous4 says:
February 3, 2016 at 7:24 pm
The WT Vampires seek fresh blood.
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anonymous4 says:
February 3, 2016 at 7:26 pm
So, not only sexists, but also ageists.
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ruthlee says:
February 3, 2016 at 5:07 pm
If I see that logo pushed at me one more time at the kh I will start armagetton.! Note to all awakers still attending kigdumb hell February Our Christian life cut out and keep pamphlet. Count how many times in that mag you find the word kingdom (clue….none). So remind me again what jdubs are supposed to announce because I can’t find a mention for this month.. ruthlee
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anonymous4 says:
February 3, 2016 at 7:29 pm
Maybe more New Light — Changing nomenclature from Kingdom to Happy Panda Land.
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Winston Smith says:
February 4, 2016 at 9:34 am
@A4
The frequent Ex-JW recollections about the pandas reminds me of George Carlin’s gripe about all the news coverage about panda procreation at zoos. It’s found in his book Napalm and Silly Putty. I couldn’t find a postable link, but I think you can find it on google books.
His comment is something to the effect: ‘Do you give a care if the pandas f**k? I have no emotional stake in panda f**king.’
For me, this tirade is a good way to mentally replace any residual JW indoctrination about playing with pandas. It’s what comes to mind when I hear something about pandas, rather than some old cult image implanted during childhood. For those who prefer more of a G-rated replacement aid, consider watching the movie Kung fu panda.
WS
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anonymous4 says:
February 4, 2016 at 4:54 pm
LOL
George Carlin was a genius.
I think I finally got those godd*mned pandas out of my head. Aaaaaargggghh. “Victory is mine!”
Though, let me emphasize, I have nothing whatsoever against pandas personally. They’re fine animals. I, in fact, have never had a bad experience with a panda. We all need to love the panda. OK, may have exhausted this topic. Preparing for the next Friday Column. :)
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Winston Smith says:
February 4, 2016 at 5:19 pm
Okay, just one more panda reference….https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jC2iwJelwco
anonymous4 says:
February 4, 2016 at 10:30 pm
Poor Homer.
Wip it says:
February 4, 2016 at 4:58 pm
Exhausted, i feel the same, everything now is being geared up for the youth, i am now in my 50’s & even though i don’t care feel being left out, i guess they have to change to attract the new blood, recall back to the 70-80’s they used to be critical of TV evangelists, modern music, & so on,i recall talks telling us that using a lap top was not loving because you will distract others, the times they are a changing, as i have stated before, i see a lot of old deluded unhappy people, when did they say “Millions now living will never die”? well my parents are gone & i find myself on the wrong side of 50
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Bad Penny says:
February 4, 2016 at 5:45 pm
Wip it – I agree with you.
It seems like a totally different scenario to when I was in. They do seem to be targeting the young – the next generation of mind blown youth.
I spoke to a young witness by his trolley a few months ago. When I mentioned a scripture to check he produced his ipad! ‘Where’s your Bible?’ I asked. ‘I always use this now,’ he said.
Seems the ‘holy spirit’ flows through a different channel nowadays. Seems they don’t mind ‘the spirit of the world’ flowing through at the same time!
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ruthlee says:
February 5, 2016 at 1:39 am
On your point Wip it and Bad penny at the meetings there is not usually enough time to actually look up the scripture before it is read as people use their tablets etc which are lightning quick. So 1 of 2 things you either rush to find the script or don’t bother. What I think this does is that you lose the “feel” of handling the Bible it becomes just another e book. Also there will be a generation who won’t know where the Bible books are in situ. but then again they don’t read it so who cares! ruthlee
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dee2 says:
February 4, 2016 at 6:51 pm
A 2010 survey of Americans conducted by the Pew Research Center for People and the Press
( http://www.people-press.org/2010/06/22/section-3-war-terrorism-and-global-trends/)
found that 41 per cent of all Americans 18 years of age and over (i.e. around 95 million) believe that the Second Coming of Christ will occur by 2050, while 46 per cent do not. Among Christians, 58 per cent of Evangelicals believe this will happen, as do 27 per cent of mainline Protestants, and 32 per cent of Roman Catholics. Even 20 per cent of the denominationally unaffiliated believe this too.
The following article provides an interesting perspective on the validity of Paul’s and Jesus’ prophecies regarding the end of the world (see second half of the article):http://www.religioustolerance.org/symes05.htm
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dee2 says:
February 5, 2016 at 6:41 am
If Paul’s and Jesus’ end of the world prophecies are taken at face value, it is clear that they were expecting the world to end during their lifetimes. However, when this didn’t happen, rationalizations were put forth that Jesus’ prophecy was fulfilled or that he was prophesizing about the distant future.
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dee2 says:
February 5, 2016 at 10:17 am
*****”prophesying” not “prophesizing”
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dee2 (formerly dee) says:
February 4, 2016 at 6:55 pm
The book: “Jesus – Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium” by Bart D. Ehrman also offers an interesting perspective on the validity of Jesus’ end of the world prophecies:http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/pdf/1999_ehrman_jesus-apocalyptic-prophet.pdf
One of the points made by this book is that “apocalypticism” was the order of the day at the time Jesus is said to have existed because of the history of the Promised Land. Jews in Palestine had been under direct foreign domination for most of the eight centuries prior to the time it is said Jesus was born. The Promised Land was conquered in succession by the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Persians, the Greeks, the Syrians, and the Romans. Jews resented the idea that they were answerable to a foreign power. They were, after all, the chosen people of the one true God of Israel, the God who had agreed to protect and defend them in exchange for their devotion. This was the land that he had promised them, and for many of them it must have been more than a little distressing, both politically and religiously, to know that ultimately someone else was in charge.
There was the belief that there would be an imminent intervention of God on behalf of his people, an intervention to be modeled on earlier acts of salvation as recorded in the Hebrew Scriptures. Quite soon, God would reassert himself and bring this world back to himself, destroying the forces of evil and establishing his people as rulers over the earth. When this new Kingdom came, God would fulfil his promises to his people. This point of view, commonly called “apocalypticism”, was an ideology that tried to make sense of the oppression of the people of God. Jewish apocalyptic thought was evident in a number of writings both in the Hebrew Bible (e.g. book of Daniel) and from other sources.
Some of the earliest traditions about Jesus portray him as a Jewish apocalypticist who responded to the political and social crises of his day, including the domination of his nation by a foreign power, by proclaiming that his generation was living at the end of the age, that God would soon intervene on behalf of his people, sending a cosmic judge from heaven, the Son of Man who would destroy the forces of evil and set up God’s Kingdom. In preparation for his coming, the people of Israel needed to turn to God, trusting him as a kindly parent and loving one another as his special children. Those who refused to accept this message would be liable to the judgment of God, soon to arrive with the coming of the Son of Man.
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dee2 (formerly dee) says:
February 4, 2016 at 6:58 pm
The book: “Jesus – Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium” by Bart D. Ehrman, also makes the point that the earliest sources such as Mark and Matthew record Jesus as propounding an apocalyptic message – predictions of the coming judgment, of the imminent arrival of the Son of Man, of the future Kingdom on earth – and these pronouncements need to be taken seriously. Interestingly, however, this message begins to be muted by the end of the first century (e.g., in Luke), until it virtually disappears (e.g., in John) – by the time we get to John, the last of the gospels to be written, Jesus is now saying: “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him” (John 3:17).
It appears that when the end never did arrive, Christians had to take stock of the fact that Jesus said it would and changed his message accordingly.http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/pdf/1999_ehrman_jesus-apocalyptic-prophet.pdf
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dee2 says:
February 4, 2016 at 7:39 pm
*****It appears that when the end never did arrive during the generation of his listeners as Jesus said it would (Mark 13:30), Christians had to take stock of the fact that Jesus said it would and changed his message accordingly.
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dee2 says:
February 4, 2016 at 7:11 pm
Whereas the theological end of the world is in doubt, the true end of the world will happen naturally. Natural ways in which the world could end:
– Asteroid collision (an asteroid wiped out the dinosaurs and many other species about 65 million years ago)http://www.religioustolerance.org/endwrlast.htm
– Death of the sun due to the natural processes in the sunhttp://www.space.com/14364-earth-consumed-red-giant-star-5b-years.html
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dee2 says:
February 4, 2016 at 7:14 pm
*****Asteroid collision (an asteroid wiped out the dinosaurs and many other species about 65 million years ago)http://www.religioustolerance.org/endwrlast.htm
Reply
dee2 says:
February 4, 2016 at 7:17 pm
Other natural ways in which the earth could end:
– Collision of our universe with a parallel universe
– Gamma ray bursthttp://www.religioustolerance.org/end_wrl8.htm
Reply
Winston Churchill says:
February 6, 2016 at 3:47 pm
No chance of Armageddon next year then ?
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← Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Doomsday Clock
The Friday Column: Watchtower and Dinosaurs
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Posted on February 4, 2016
close-up_dinosaurs_turok_dinosaur_comics_tyrannosaurus_rex_desktop_1024x742_hd-wallpaper-991803“You are eating dinosaur.”
I was sitting next to a Palaeontologist in a chicken restaurant.
“Look at the scales on the chicken’s leg, pure dinosaur. Did you know T.Rex had feathers?” asked Prof. Octávio Mateus, from the University of Nova de Lisboa.
He had been invited to speak to a regional Archeological group, in the Algarve, Portugal, about his life’s work. Professor Mateus had traveled the world to excavate the ancient extinct creatures that have captured our imaginations for over a hundred years: Dinosaurs.
I must admit, my knowledge of dinosaurs is quite limited. I have watched Jurassic Park, I know that children love dinosaurs, but my own childhood dinosaur memory is the front inside page of the green New World Translation of the Bible. The map of the world on the inside cover had a drawing of a dinosaur (not to scale) placed firmly in Africa. (Portugal is part of Tarshish on the map.)
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So what could an ex JW who knows very little about dinosaurs ask an internationally respected Palaeontologist? You got it!
“So err, were all the dinosaurs wiped out in a huge world-wide flood, you know, like the Bible says?”
“No,” he replied, “It was not one event that produced extinction but a process over millions of years. In the Algarve, it is was volcanic action and possible meteor strikes, but not a flood.”
I explained why I asked the question and how one particular organisation is certain that dinosaurs were wiped out in a global flood. I also told him I was looking forward to his presentation that would follow after lunch.
The man born in a dinosaur nest
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Professor Prof. Octávio Mateus
Prof. Octávio Mateus is an engaging, funny, enthusiastic teacher. I say teacher, not only because some of his students were in the audience, but because of how much I learned in the hour or so he spoke with the archeological club.
The Professor likes to say of himself “I was born in a dinosaur nest.” When one knows of the Professor’s history, his meaning becomes clear. Archeology is in his genes; his parents researched the Lourinhã Formation, a rich source of Portuguese fossils and dinosaur eggs.
The professor discussed with us the ancient geological periods in which the dinosaurs lived, the Triassic period (beginning 250 million years ago) then the Jurassic period (ending 150 million years ago), and ending with the Cretaceous period (ending 65 million years ago). Then he want on to tell us that parts of the Algarve region of Portugal are a rich source of dinosaur finds, such as a toothy 2-metre long Salamander; Metoposaurus algarvensis.
supersal
About 210 million years ago, this beast swam and walked across the land very near to where I was sitting.
The research that uncovered Metoposaurus algarvensis was led by the University of Edinburgh in Scotland, with the collaboration of other institutions including the New University of Lisbon, the Lourinhã Museum Portugal and the universities of Edinburgh, Birmingham and the Museum of Natural History in Paris.
The results were written up in the Journal of Vertebrate Palaeontology and published in March 2015.
salamanderskullsImages of remains found in the Algarve excavation were displayed on the screen. They looked like two brown bumpy toilet seats. Paleoantologists believe that Metoposaurus algarvensis ate fish and became extinct due to volcanic eruptions and increasing lack of access to lakes and other bodies of water. The recent dig in 2014 found nine specimens of this kind of dinosaur in a four square metre area. The quantity and quality of this find bode well for even greater discoveries when the team return for a future dig.
While Prof. Mateus was presenting, I had some flashbacks of images. I recalled the Photo-Drama of Creation. I remembered images of the ark with dying dinosaurs.
In the week after Prof. Mateus’ talk, I Googled around some of the issues he raised with some questions. I discovered, joy upon joy, that at the same time as the 1914 Photo-drama of creation was wowing and converting, “Gertie, the Dinosaur,” was produced as one of the first animated films.
Created by Winsor McCay. It features the sauropod dinosaur Brontosaurus. (McCay also created Little Nemo, a weekly fantasy cartoon adventure).
The early Bible Students / Russellites peddled a teaching in 1914 in the Photo-Drama of Creation, “that each of the Seven Days of the Creative Week was a period of seven thousand years. This, seven times seven thousand, equals forty-nine thousand (7×7,000=49,000) years, ushering in a grand Jubilee Epoch.”
Dinosaurs: What does Watchtower think?
Jehova's+Witnesses+Dinosaurs+Photodrama+of+CreationThe Photo-Drama of Creation was an early example of a multi-media presentation; combining as it did moving pictures, full colour slides and audio. It stands to this day as an impressive technological achievement for its era, but is also notable for being, shall we say, a less-than-scientifically-accurate account of the field in which Prof. Octávio Mateus has become such an expert.
In fact, scientifically speaking, it was a mess, peddling as it did Russell’s teaching “that each of the Seven Days of the Creative Week was a period of seven thousand years. This, seven times seven thousand, equals forty-nine thousand (7×7,000=49,000) years, ushering in a grand Jubilee Epoch.”
Russell’s teaching put the age of the Earth at less than 49,000 years old, and thus radically shifted the age when the dinosaurs had roamed the Earth from hundreds of millions of years ago, to just a few thousand.
The Brooklyn Eagle newspaper said at the time that Pastor Russell’s “Advertising methods had already attracted a good deal of attention to himself, and while many referred to him as “the crank preacher of Allegheny,” his unusual lectures and effective publicity methods drew good-sized crowds to his Bible House on Arch Street.”
Russell told the audience who came to watch the photo-drama that, “these Christians were fortified against the creeping infidelity of the modernist movements.” Early converts lapped up Russell’s chronology and the “seven days” continued to be 49,000 literal years right up till fairly recently.
How recently?
Fellow Friday columnists, John and Jane Redwood sent me the text from the 1975 Awake, where Witnesses were assured of certain “facts.”
12510227_421493041381182_1547770582906989096_n
Even as recently as 1982, Watchtower published artwork portraying a wrathful God destroying people, animals, insects….and dinosaurs.
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In 1982, I was already on my way out of the Watchtower religion. Yet I carried with me the instilled teaching of 7,000 year creative days and of 6,000 years of man’s existence. Of course over the years, those beliefs have been eroded. I think I may have caught a rerun of “When dinosaurs roamed the Earth” on the Discovery Channel.
But I wonder what old time JW’s make of the time scales and the changes in teaching?
In recent years they have become very vague on the subject, seemingly unwilling to engage with the question of the age of the dinosaurs, but tacitly appearing to admit that their age was far greater than had previously been stated.
Now, it’s true to state that Watchtower is not the only organisation contesting the accepted scientific view of the age of this planet, and of the flora and fauna that have existed upon it. Today, many other religions and groups raise similar objections to the findings of these scientists
But Watchtower is notorious for demanding extreme actions from its followers that these other organisations mostly do not, such as the denial of life saving treatment, the forgoing of higher eduction, and the covering up of child abuse. On top of this, it demands that its followers never question any of its teachings on pain of shunning. An organisation demanding that amount of blind loyalty needs to have a flawless track record in the accuracy of its teachings to maintain any credibility at all.
Dinosaurs: What does an expert think?
65978.adapt.768.1I sent the quote from the 1975 Awake and the image from the 1982 Creation book to Prof. Octávio Mateus and asked if he would be willing to comment in reference to this teaching.
He said,
“The image and text attached is misleading because it mixes facts and leads to wrong conclusions. Most, but not all, sedimentary rocks are deposited as sand, silt, mud, gravel or clay transported by water or carbonated precipitated in the ocean. Less common, the sediments are transported by wind. Therefore, most fossils are indeed remains of animals covered by sediments being water-transported by river, lakes, or seas. However, this does not mean there was any flood.
Moreover, in the case of desert animals, fossil-bearing sedimented were wind-transported. In those cases, the death and fossilisation did not involve any water. Stratigraphy shows that fossils are a natural consequence of animals being covered by sediment and petrified during the course of millions of years. We have an enormous amount of evidence showing that earth is billions of years old.”
Watchtower would probably say, “well yes, we now admit the earth is older than 42,000 years and counting. It is just man that has been around for 6,000 years.”
Yet this is not the point.
The point is: When Watchtower finally admitted that the Earth was far older than 42,000 years old, this was not as a result of divine revelation, or some deeper understanding of the scriptural text. It was as a direct result of the scientific evidence being so overwhelming that Watchtower had to back down.
The God of the bible did not enlighten them. The science of the world proved them wrong.
That should tell you something.
susannah-signature
Links
Live Science.com article on Professor Octávio Mateus and his team uncovering the remains of Metoposaurus algarvensis.
Dinosaurs – What do Jehovah’s Witnesses believe?
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← Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Doomsday Clock
144 Responses to The Friday Column: Watchtower and Dinosaurs
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Lynaire Williams says:
February 4, 2016 at 5:39 pm
My family member, baptised in 1978 must have been terribly confused. When I asked questions about fossils,
mammoth and dinosaurs skeletons and dates accredited to them by science, I was told they were not real but put there by satan to fool us all.
Quite recently that changed to, “Oh, they were there to
be vacuum cleaners for the land to be ready for humans.
Some in authority must have quoted that but I cannot see where that fits in.
Reply
JBob says:
February 6, 2016 at 10:02 am
“When I asked questions about fossils,
mammoth and dinosaurs skeletons and dates accredited to them by science, I was told they were not real but put there by satan to fool us all.”
Thisresponse is canned and used by evangelicals in many different groups. Most JW logic states that a massive flood wiped out the dinos, as article indicates, and that the footprints in “water sediments” proves this.
However, what JW Creation story doesn’t embrace or address is the “ice age” phenomenon–the continent “bouncing back” from thousands of years of bearing weight of ice coverage and other “evidence”. The JW story goes that the large out-of-place boulders along the northern hemisphere are there by flood not by ice age glaciers or runoff from ice-melt. Either way, evolution jumps in to explain a limit set of animals boarded on an “ark” evolving into multiple species around the globe.
And, until recently, it was difficult to find scientists who had stitched the biologic, geologic, and astronomic evolution stories into a cohesive narrative. That has changed. And, scientific method is one of examine this, theory, test, discover, examine, theory, test, and repeat until a new discovery alters the theory.
The Watchtower tries to use this latter method as its “truth discovery” explanation for changes, but spirit and faith assuming an all-knowing deity versus secular science using deductive mind.
The interesting thing is that science and paleontology DO explain a common cultural narrative of a cataclysmic flood event as either emerging from a common culture — some speculate civilizations may have been more advanced than evidence in stone presents. And, here’s why–in our own civilized word, we have moved progressively from chiseled stone documents to papyrus to paper and now to digital formats. As we have moved forward, the media recording events becomes outmoded and impossible to decipher on new devices unless it is converted–audio, films, speeches, etc.
During the “Dark Ages” knowledge of advanced civilizations such as Rome (building aquaducts, etc) seemed lost until recovered with Arab invasion. So, the history of humanity that seems to end with Biblical flood back to creation may not be the final story.
Reply
enuffsenuff says:
February 4, 2016 at 6:00 pm
This one is marginally amusing. No one was there so everyone is guessing about dinosaurs. Some people will say it disproves the bible, others not so. The WT stepped outside their bailiwick with this and have got themselves in a tangle, but they have done what everyone else has done:- guessed and fudged. Enjoy the fact that the bones and other artifacts have been discovered. Kids love them and I do as well, but definitive statements over when they were here are just guesses.
Arguments over woolly mammoths and friends seems exhausting for naught. Hope next Friday’s topic will be more relevant.
Reply
Covert Fade says:
February 4, 2016 at 6:21 pm
The point surely being that an Organisation caught fudging and guessing, whilst simultaneously refusing to allow questioning of its teachings under pain of shunning, is an organisation to be very cautious of.
Moderators note: I’m disinclined to allow arguments in the thread over discussions of evolution, either for or against. The JW Survey writer makes her point and presents the facts as she and others see it, and people can take or leave them. There are countless other forums online to have this argument, please seek them out and get stuck in.
The main point of this article is that Watchtower refuses to allow criticism over doctrines that it later has to back away from. What was once apostasy is now acknowledged truth. That is fair game for discussion.
As always, I will be as reasonable as possible, but don’t make me moderate.
You wouldn’t like me when I moderate.
Reply
John Baptist says:
February 5, 2016 at 6:20 am
That individual may or may not be trying to dust off the ingrained programming of the “were always right mentality”
Folks like that find it hard to think outside the box.
Reply
M Saurus says:
February 5, 2016 at 9:35 am
Covert, would you please get over yourself? Let people talk about whatever they want – as long as the discussion does not get vulgar or nasty. You are OVER-moderating – and it’s really getting annoying.
Reply
gameisover says:
February 5, 2016 at 11:10 am
I agree with Saurus. These are all theories that change with time. They have in the past. Constantly. If we can’ say what we want, then this blog has lost its charm. The Watchtower does not let anyone have opinions that don’t exactly coincide with theirs.
I hope you don’t start that trend by “moderating” left and right.
Reply
Covert Fade says:
February 5, 2016 at 11:43 am
My point is that this site maintains a “zero evangelism” ethos in the comments.
As I said, I’m happy to be reasonable, but I am aware this issue is a hot-button topic for many people and I do not want the comments to get side-tracked into any slanging matches from either side. Rarely have I seen this discussion go anywhere but angry chaos when conducted online.
However, having considered things, and given the nature of the article, I’m prepared to extend the benefit of the doubt.
Feel free to have the evolution/creation/age of the earth and dinosaurs debate.
I will allow it as long as I feel it’s conducted in a positive spirit and relies on facts and reasoning. Ad Hominim will get you deleted, logical reasoning will get you applauded.
M Saurus says:
February 5, 2016 at 11:46 am
Oh, yes. “he will allow it”. Power trip, anyone? I don’t seem to remember Cedars coming on here every day telling us what he will “allow”. He only jumped in every so often to stop some hard-core weirdos. Covert seems to be “moderating” every comment. Just to let us know we’re getting close to being moderated – someone really has way too much time on their hands.
Winston Smith says:
February 5, 2016 at 5:11 pm
I think CF has been pretty level headed with the moderation. We had a forum start to derail a couple weeks ago and although one commenter had to be blocked because he was verbally attacking the other comenters, I think CF was pretty lenient with the group. I think CF is just trying to be proactive on what by nature can be a pretty heated topic.
WS
anonymous4 says:
February 5, 2016 at 6:09 pm
I try to keep in mind this Site is called JWsurvey. I’m here to help expose the Watchtower Snakes, not to evangelize, or to argue pro-Creation or pro-Evolution. & if attacking people is ur thing, I hear they’re having a lot of trouble with a gang called ISIS over there in the Middle East. Anyone with anger issues could have a field day over there. Make urself useful. Maybe come back with some Medals!
Join-Stay25Yrs-Leave says:
February 5, 2016 at 8:17 pm
New moderator flexing muscle and posting a threat — “You wouldn’t like me when I moderate.” How disrespectful to the readership can you get? No class.
I have not seen that behavior here before, and I’ve been reading for some time.
And since when does “evangelizing” include opinions about dinos and archeology. I understood the “no evangelizing” rule to mean trying to convert others with religious doctrine.
Don’t ruin JW Survey, Covert Fade.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
February 6, 2016 at 12:41 am
Re: “U wouldn’t like me when I moderate.” – I did not find that disrespectful. Thought it was kinda funny actually. From the old “Hulk” TV series, right? (Bill Bixby)
Frankly, I don’t see what u guys r griping about. I’ve seen plenty of leeway here. What amazingly shocking thing do u have to share that u’re afraid might get deleted? LOL Unless u’re just trying to start a debate for its own sake, or perhaps to divert energy & attention from the actual purpose of this Site.
Cheers :)
Reply
anonymous4 says:
February 6, 2016 at 12:44 am
PS If u consider “U wouldn’t like me when I moderate” to b a “threat”, u need to get out more.
Join-Stay25Yrs-Leave says:
February 6, 2016 at 5:16 pm
You’re unfounded inferences into my post speak volumes about you. :)
AussieneedingComfort says:
February 6, 2016 at 7:18 pm
Enuffsenuff is my husband. I read here nearly every day. But I agree that the new Moderator has overstepped his position and become and Elder again. So what if we didn’t find Susanna’s article particularly enthralling. I have sent two (2) complaints to JWSurvey at contact us, and neither one have been acknowledged. I am very disappointed and will stop reading these articles if the heavy handed threats continue. Two things that upset me tremendously are “You wouldn’t like me when I moderate.” and telling readers to get lost as in “There are countless other forums online to have this argument, please seek them out and get stuck in.”
Reply
John Walsh says:
February 4, 2016 at 7:19 pm
`Hope next Friday’s topic will be more relevant.’
It’s that sort of mental approach to a well presented point that causes people to be so closed minded that they fall sucker to cults.
What could be more relevant than the fact that in so many JW doctrines and policies they have been proven wrong or have had to, or seen fit to come up with `new light’, and therefore the argument in the piece above, that any person or group of persons that claim to be guided and directed by the god of the bible, `needs to have a flawless track record in the accuracy of its teachings to maintain any credibility at all.’
And as the piece states, in the case of JW’s GB, where extreme blind faith is demanded from followers, much more needs to be demanded by the followers in return.
Sound arguments that go straight over the heads of no thinking folk.
Reply
Michel says:
February 4, 2016 at 6:25 pm
While I fully agree with your conclusion (“The God of the bible did not enlighten them. The science of the world proved them wrong.”), I do think you should have mentioned the Awake of 1990 about dinosaurs.
You wrote: “By 1990, the 42,000 years were viewed as symbolic, but the Watchtower still held onto the belief that the remaining dinosaurs were wiped out during a global flood, 4300 years ago or so.”
That’s not true.
What the Awake said in 1990 (2/8) was this: “The book A Vanished World: The Dinosaurs of Western Canada states that “all of the 11 major kinds of dinosaurs . . . ceased to exist in the western interior at about the same time.” This, and the fact that human bones have not been found with dinosaur bones, is why most scientists conclude that the Age of Dinosaurs ended before humans came on the scene… When the dinosaurs had fulfilled their purpose, God ended their life. But the Bible is silent on how he did that or when.”
In the article they did doubt dating methods, “especially so when we consider that the Flood of Noah’s day over 4,300 years ago brought enormous changes in the atmosphere and on earth.”
But in 1990 they did not held onto the belief that the flood wiped out the dinosaurs.
Reply
Man from the lions pit says:
February 4, 2016 at 11:13 pm
Thanks for bringing this up Michael.
Reply
Jeffreycanning says:
February 4, 2016 at 7:42 pm
Good stuff, more please…
Reply
Roman Castañeda says:
February 4, 2016 at 8:03 pm
PERfect!
Reply
anonymous4 says:
February 4, 2016 at 8:12 pm
The Watchtower Trickery Society always insists the ENTIRE bible be taken seriously, & literally (except for Revelation), yet they “cherry pick” whatever scientific ‘evidence’ suits their dogma, & reject whatever does not. Classic “tail wagging the dog” behavior.
Reply
Chiafade says:
February 4, 2016 at 9:32 pm
All of Revelation is symbolic EXCEPT for 144000 that part is literal!
Reply
anonymous4 says:
February 4, 2016 at 11:00 pm
Ha!
Reply
D. Charles Pyle says:
February 4, 2016 at 10:03 pm
For those interested, the Bible map with the dinosaur in Africa made its appearance on the inside cover of the one-volume edition of the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures for the first time in its 1961 revision. So far as I could ascertain by flipping through the pages while consulting my first edition copies, there was no picture of a dinosaur on any of the maps in the first edition. At one of the links above, the article at the end of one of the links reads:
“The inside cover of the original New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, published by Jehovah’s Witnesses, depicts a dinosaur living with post-flood humans in North Africa.”
That claim is incorrect. Minor point that doesn’t detract much overall from either the linked article or from the article above. I only mention it in the interest of accuracy.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
February 4, 2016 at 11:22 pm
science (n.)
mid-14c., “what is known, knowledge (of something) acquired by study; information;” also “assurance of knowledge, certitude, certainty,” from Old French science “knowledge, learning, application; corpus of human knowledge” (12c.), from Latin scientia “knowledge, a knowing; expertness,”
Science is about what is KNOWN, not what is assumed, believed, or wished for. Facts. Yet, when the facts don’t mesh with dogma, Watchtower simply ignores them. Deny, deny, deny. Just keep ur eyes on the puppet show.
Reply
Idontknowhatodo says:
February 5, 2016 at 7:36 am
Also Science invites you to study its conclusions using ALL information you can aquire… it asks you to ffill your mind with as much factual knowlege as possible and then draw your conclusions… you can queation,research and dig to your hearts content and if a Scientific acceptepted fact is proven dubious or down right wrong .. you can challenge it using solid evidence without having the vengeance of God called down upon you.
To me this Friday Column was very relavent and informative… everything I was taught in Science lesson in school was debunked when I got home… I have sort of always believed in Evolution in some form…at least I could ask questions in school…at home if I questioned the teachings at the Kingdom Hall…I was punished… thank you for this weeks column and the sincere effort you put into it…it means a lot to most of us.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
February 5, 2016 at 4:31 pm
How true. I don’t believe there has ever been a Scientific Inquisition – scientists running around burning people at the stake who didn’t believe their theories.
Reply
JBob says:
February 6, 2016 at 12:54 pm
I strongly disagree. While there may not be an horrific tying to stake and setting afire or torture, in academia and science community, if a scientist holds onto views that are disproven or theories that seem “outrageous” he or she can find their career stalled. No invitations to lecture, no professor chairs, no invites to publish. Some who suffered this fate have had their theories proven “right” in later years. Quantum physics being one area where what seems far-fetched one decade is “hot research” the next.
Science does have its own “priesthood” in sanctioning what can be published and taught, but it is based on research, and repeatable experiments. If evidence gives the slightest suggestion that a theory is proven, that member of the community is applauded. If a theory is not yet proven, it gets published but simmers on back burners until some one re-discovers it and brings it new life.
In its current incarnation, the Watchtower does not sanction such broad play with “truth”. You may read your bible, quietly compose an article of theories and speculations, mail it to HQ, but return to your seat and sit there until HQ plagiarizes it or dissects and reinvents it as its own. For explanation, see the footnote, “we are the Gov Body and we run this joint–even if Jehovah Made This Whole Joint For You” (yep, a long ways for another insert–enjoy…)
Reply
anonymous4 says:
February 5, 2016 at 4:42 pm
I always found Science classes far more fascinating (& useful) than any religious dogma I ever learned. If those idiots really want to learn about God, they should study physics, chemistry, biology, watch Nature & Science & Astronomy documentaries on TV, Netflix, YouTube, etc, etc, etc. I recommend Cosmos with Neil deGrasse Tyson. How ’bout the good ol’ Public Library? When I was growing up, we actually used to read books. I know. Mind-blowing.
The Truth is out there.
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Winston Smith says:
February 5, 2016 at 5:24 pm
Case in point: Sir Isaac Newton was one of the foremost scientific minds of the millennium. This, even though he was a devout bible student and published (posthumously) his analysis of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation.
Science is self-correcting. It keeps questioning so called facts and if it finds they are errant, rejects them. Most religion assumes from the start that it is inerrant (due to professed divine revelation) and refuses to change even when all the evidence is 180 degrees opposed to its teachings.
I once had a young Witness lad tell me, “I used to be really into learning about dinosaurs, but stopped learning about them because don’t know if they really existed.” WTF? What crazy JW zealot put that thought in his head? I don’t think the watchtower even said that. I do recall that they claimed that all dinosaurs were herbivorous although everything we have learned in nature tells us how to spot a carnivore.
WS
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Winston Smith says:
February 5, 2016 at 5:27 pm
Rule #1: My religion is always right.
Rule #2: If my religion is shown to be wrong, no matter how overwhelming the evidence, see Rule #1.
It’s not just the JWs. Many of the world’s religions have this attitude.
WS
Reader says:
February 7, 2016 at 3:30 pm
Check the depth of a t.rex tooth would it hold in a bit to a stegasaur collar?
Big animals can’t move fast, they can overheat.
Winston Smith says:
February 7, 2016 at 9:26 pm
Here’s a good article on T-Rex feeding habits: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feeding_behaviour_of_Tyrannosaurus
No indication that stegosaur was on the menu, although triceratops might have been. There is some consideration giving to whether the T-Rex was a pure predator or also a scavenger. May be some evidence of cannibalism as well
WS
Man from the lions pit says:
February 4, 2016 at 11:22 pm
Thanks Susannah for your article.
It was enjoyable to read kind a refreshing its bring me to my school year.
Logical connection to the fact that WT and GB doesn’t allow freedom of thinking neither in reasonable extend returning to them as boomerang. It’s damaging and counterproductive.
The days are numbered for them in form as we knew and know them now.
MENE MENE TEKEL IN PARSIN
peace and nice weekend to all
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ruthlee says:
February 5, 2016 at 1:55 am
Hi an interesting subject to ponder this week thanks. Back in the bad old days before I was leaving school I really wanted to study geology but always knew there was a conflict with watchtower speak so did not pursue that line of interest. I still find it amazing how they discover new things about the earth and the history of the planet each year. I still don’t know how old things are or why the dinos died but what I do know is the WT do not know everything and prehistory is not their business. Seeing as they are guardians of doctrine they should stick to guessing god’s new light and change of plan rather than tell us how old the earth and rocks are. Is their modus operandi not future, future and everlasting future? so no point in pontificating on past events, leave that to the clever science buffs who are in the field and actually know what they are talking about.Ruthlee
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anonymous4 says:
February 5, 2016 at 4:48 pm
Nice.
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Winston Smith says:
February 5, 2016 at 5:30 pm
And geologists make beau coup bucks. Starting pay for a geologist right out of college with a masters degree is about $120,000 per year in the US.
WS
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anonymous4 says:
February 5, 2016 at 6:20 pm
Point the way to those rocks!!!!!!!!!!
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Australian exJW says:
February 5, 2016 at 1:57 am
When did the WTS state that the 42,000 yrs were symbolic? I was always under the impression they were considered literal.
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Susannah says:
February 5, 2016 at 2:21 am
Good question. I am checking this. My understanding is that they moved away from the 42,000 years as a literal time period.
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Lynaire Williams says:
February 5, 2016 at 4:24 am
Hello All,
My words were written without a lot of consideration. simply because I did not expect them to go through. I have tried before and they disappeared into the ether.
My thoughts are that dinosaurs are very relevant to a well rounded history of the world, no matter when they arrived or left and a fascinating subject. They are awesome.
My family member is very dear to me, otherwise I would not be here. The confusion she lives with, a very kind, very gentle person is reprehensible to me.
However the reason I am happy to finally be here on this site is because I want to congratulate you all. Tell you what stars you are and let you know that all over the world other groups such as yours are daring to rise up and shine. Different subjects, same dynamics.
My own awakening to a terrible injustice was in 2009,along with many others we are working towards the same objective. “Truth”.” The lovers of a lie” are being cornered everywhere. This “mission” brings pain and grief as you will all be aware. In my experience the intensity does bring on disagreements and splits, which is unfortunate.
But the truly steadfast remain.We are what we have been waiting for.
Cheers from NZ.
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Searcher says:
February 5, 2016 at 7:37 am
Hi Lynaire,
Many in the USA where I am from say, “Freedom isn’t free.” You must defend the freedom you have and it comes at a price. Just like any tyrant, the WTBTS, GB, and power hungry elders will do just about anything to have total control over your life, stemming from lust for power or just plain delusion. That’s the difference between a religion vs. a destructive cult. A religion tries to spiritually guide you, but a cult will try to take control of every part of your life, including your life.
Freedom of mind does come at a cost of conflict, but remember that you also can be a beacon of happiness and freedom for those still trapped in this power hungry organization. ‘You can attract a lot more bees with honey than with vinegar’ as the old saying goes. Defend your God-given freedom of mind and spirit, but do so in a way that can spread that gift to others. Read some of Steven Hassan’s books on mind control cults.
Best of luck to you.
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anonymous4 says:
February 5, 2016 at 4:53 pm
U can attract a lot more flies with honey too. Unfortunately, flies seem to prefer sh*t, which makes our job even more challenging. lol
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Winston Smith says:
February 5, 2016 at 5:33 pm
@A4
LOL
WS
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anonymous4 says:
February 5, 2016 at 4:57 pm
@ Lynaire
“All over the world other groups such as yours are daring to rise up & shine”
— Long Live The Fifth Column!!!
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Winston Smith says:
February 5, 2016 at 5:35 pm
And long live the Brotherhood of Goldstein! LOL
WS
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Lynaire Williams says:
February 7, 2016 at 4:44 am
@Anonymous 4
-Long Live the Fifth Column!!!
Really! What part of a true statement “All over the world other groups such as yours
are daring to rise up and shine”, do you perceive as a threat”. Do you want to be the only group”. Do you fear that somehow they will undermine your cause?
I do realise that fear and your diet of hate mail passed on to you as spiritual food by your loving leaders, has had the effect of freezing your brain, but please come back! In your absenteeism, real people, brave and courageous ones, stepped up for you. They are definitely not subversive, don’t worry they will not send spies into your little world or harm you in any way, they are far too busy. It is a big wide world out there, and I am sorry it is so scary for you.
They do number in tens of millions but you are safer than you have ever been. The really “good news” and one you will understand is that one day they will start to overlap and we will all be in for a pleasant suprise!
Cheers.
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Winston Smith says:
February 7, 2016 at 9:20 am
@ Lynaire
I am not sure I understand your argumentation. Per Wikipedia: “A fifth column is any group of people who undermine a larger group—such as a nation or a besieged city—from within, usually in favor of an enemy group or nation. The activities of a fifth column can be overt or clandestine.”
I think A4 sees JWSurvey as such a group in relation to the Watchtower Society. I do not understand your objection or even if it should be taken as one.
WS
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Lynaire Williams says:
February 7, 2016 at 9:10 pm
@ Winstone Smith
Thank you for the correction.You know, before I sent that post away, I knew that I would be red faced and regretful come the dawn.But I did it anyway? So illogical. I did puzzle over it a long time, trying to equate what these groups had to do with traitors and spies and covert actions. Really never giving the JW actions a thought, even though it was their forum.But in the end I saw what I wanted to see and apologies to all. More so to A4 whose kindness and restraint in simply ignoring me is priceless.
My delusion was that I was professing solidarity, others have your back, you are not alone, all that kind of encouragement. The reality of what I was not saying is this, “Look, I acknowledge you as a valid and valuable uprising and I do support you. But don’t ever think that yours will ever compare with mine,it’s not possible, and I am going to tell you why!”Pure ego,which just happens to have ruined the world I vow to protect.
It is not even about JWSurvey. It is about my sister and I. My lesson to learn.Those words were arrows meant for her heart.. Namaste.
John Baptist says:
February 5, 2016 at 6:13 am
Nicely written and interesting. Thanks for your insight
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Tara says:
February 5, 2016 at 7:39 am
When I came into the Borg. One of the questions I asked was about the dinosaurs. I was shown the scripture in Genesis that God created the great sea monsters.. enough said. God created them, they were there, he destroyed them in the flood….. I remember being given an old Awake, I think it was and on the front it had a dinosaur…. Something just seemed off. Anyways I was caught up in it by then and whatever was said seemed to be backed up so I left it alone.
Now I have a very inquisitive Granddaughter who loves dinosaurs and we would visit a great store in town that sold fossils and gem stones. I bought her book after book on the subject and noticed that not many others at the hall shared our enthusiasm…. You see, we were looking at facts. We were looking outside the golden box and as a 6 year old does, questions were being asked and Grandma was looking for answers – real answers. Do you know how much fun it is to hold dino poo and gross out a 6 year old bah ha ha.
That being said, now I have faded and the fairy tales are being dismissed I am grateful for articles like this Susannah. Think I’ll go watch Jurassic Park again :) BTW a velociraptor isn’t half as big as they show them in the movie….. I saw the fossils lol.
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anonymous4 says:
February 5, 2016 at 5:07 pm
Interesting. Now, if the “Flood” destroyed all the dinosaurs, wouldn’t the ocean-borne dinos have survived – the great “sea monsters” like Shastasaurus & Ichthyosaurus? My brain hurts. Oh, Watchtower, please relieve me by brainwashing me with ur answer. LOL
PS I’m really not that smart. Just Googled those crazy Dino names. lol
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Tara says:
February 5, 2016 at 5:50 pm
But we do have great sea monsters! we have Lochness Monster – Nessie, Big Blue and Okanagan Monster – Ogopogo…. I know that because I watched the X Files. All of them could be Plesiosaurs… 😛
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anonymous4 says:
February 5, 2016 at 6:25 pm
Careful…that sounds like apostate talk.
U would like Lake Placid.
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Tara says:
February 5, 2016 at 9:34 pm
The movie or the place lol. BTW I’ve been to Lochness and Lake Okanagan.
anonymous4 says:
February 5, 2016 at 11:47 pm
Cool.
I meant the movie, but sounds like u’ve seen it.
Might enjoy this clip from South Park:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=south+park+loch+ness+monster
Bob says:
February 5, 2016 at 7:55 am
The age of Earth is disconnected from 42.000 years doctrine. There is a “Question from readers” article in early ’90, where they restate their literal interpretation of 7.000 years duration of a creation day, but they didn’t teach long before ’75 that earth was CREATED before 48.000 years before. That’s just when the creation days started, the Earth was already there. That’s why they still refer to the start of life taking place “thousands of years before” (but never millions). The 7.000 years duration of a creation day is still alive, although last time explicitly stated some decades before.
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anonymous4 says:
February 5, 2016 at 5:16 pm
Good point. Been some confusion there, I think. JWs concede that Planet Earth itself has been around for millions or even billions of years; the 48000-yr thing applies only to creation UPON Earth.
PS Ricky Gervais points out that the Genesis account states that God created the Heavens & the Earth, then said, “Let there be light.” So He created Earth in the dark. Impressive.
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phoenix_rising says:
February 5, 2016 at 8:22 am
Great article – I also loved the reference to the dinosaur in the green NWT. I always remembered that oddity. Also did anyone just notice the two wooly mammoths in the My Book of Bible Stories book. The illustration seems to imply that the two missed the boat. I never once picked up on that. Kind of like the painter wanted to say “See? They missed the boat hence why those animals don’t exist anymore.” Such nonsense. I also remember JW’s stating that the flood somehow was linked to the ice age. All speculation of course – and we would get all the answers in paradise.
I will always remember in 2007 I was in Chicago and toured a history museum. They had a very large expo on the history of the earth starting from the beginning until now. I remember walking through it as a JW and my brain was just firing all over the place because they had fossils and proof of how old these things were. And we are talking millions upon millions of years before even the dinosaurs! All I wanted to see were the dinosaurs – yet I had to walk through endless history backed by science and facts that led me to the same conclusion. If evolution wasn’t real how else could one explain all this? You don’t get a Dog from a trilobite. At least not over night lol!
Great article. And Jurassic Park is still amazeballs.
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Jarred Booth says:
February 5, 2016 at 9:41 am
Incredible how all the dinosaurs of the world, including those in the southern hemisphere (South America, Australia, Antarctica) all died in the flood, but so many other smaller, weaker animals of South America (Galapagos), Australia, and Madagascar, survived.
I recall as a Witness, a question that would occasionally come up was: Will Jehovah bring back dinosaurs during the 1,000 year reign? That question sounds preposterous to me now, but at the time I remember thinking “I hope so!” Now I know the only hope of dinosaurs (the non-bird version) returning is through science and cloning. Science is making advances in leaps and bounds, while the JW religion is gradually going the way of the fossils.
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Deep Thinker says:
February 5, 2016 at 10:30 am
The WTS still believes in thousands of years. You will never hear them say millions.
It has been becoming evident in the last 20 years or so that there has been some major catastrophe about 10,000 years ago that has overwhelmed the Solar System. The problem is, is that mainstay scientist’s do not want to admit it. Careers are involved.
Thus we have uniformitarianism and catastrophism. If catastrophism is correct then how the dating is assigned is incorrect.
A good place to start in what might have happened. are the following two links.
http://www.thunderbolts.info
http://www.ancientdestructions.com
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Anonynous says:
February 5, 2016 at 12:00 pm
The February Awake on JW.org says the following re: timing.
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/awake-no1-2016-february/facts-about-jehovah-witness/
We believe that God created everything. But we do not agree with many who believe in creationism. Why not? Because a number of creationists’ ideas conflict with the Bible. For example, some assert that the six days of creation were literal 24-hour days. But the word “day” in the Bible can refer to a considerable length of time. (Genesis 2:4; Psalm 90:4) Then, too, some creationists teach that the earth is just a few thousand years old. However, the Bible indicates that the earth and the universe existed long before the six days of creation. 1—Genesis 1:1.
The footnote says:
1. For that reason, we have no objection—as do some creationists—to credible scientific research that indicates the earth may be billions of years old.
So there’s acknowledgment to the earth being “billions of years old”.
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Winston Smith says:
February 5, 2016 at 9:26 pm
I seem to recall that the JWs (along with other creationist religions) want to discount carbon dating and geological findings. One of the arguments I recall is that the flood changed the carbon content of the world therefore carbon dating is inaccurate. The flood is also blamed for skewing the geological findings. So it seems to be that the flood is the reason our science cannot find geological evidence for the flood. How’s that for circular reasoning?
They accept geology and carbon dating when it suits them, but dismiss it when it interferes with their theology.
WS
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Anders Andersen says:
February 5, 2016 at 2:01 pm
Great article, thanks!
Powerful conclusion as well.
“The God of the bible did not enlighten them. The science of the world proved them wrong.”
I will keep that one in mind…
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GEM says:
February 5, 2016 at 2:05 pm
Interesting article, Susannah. Thank you.
Could anyone explain to me, why the Hunters on this planet have their eyes fixed firmly in the front of their heads… and the prey, always have their eyes at the side.
Did a loving god make them that way, to kill and be killed or did it take millions of years of Survival of the fittest to end up that way? Just curious.
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anonymous4 says:
February 5, 2016 at 5:30 pm
It’s anyone’s guess. I tend to believe God set everything (Evolution, whatever) in motion (like with a Big Bang). The rest is History. I suppose if there is a God, & He really wanted us to know, He would just come out & tell us, maybe remind us every couple thousand years or so, instead of having us rely on age-old accounts that don’t make much sense or jive with proven facts. Maybe we’re not meant to know everything. God is a Mystery.
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Winston Smith says:
February 5, 2016 at 9:34 pm
I think that using our deductive reasoning, which was endowed to us by our Creator, to find answers to these questions is the sum total of the human experience.
Our ancestors wanted the same answers but lacked the tools to find them. So they postulated and guessed the best they could. They came up with a model of the known universe that suited their needs back then. But as their knowledge grew those old models had to be updated or discarded in favor of new, better ones. Over the next century, the models we currently use may need to be discarded in favor of better ones.
WS
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anonymous4 says:
February 5, 2016 at 11:58 pm
I just hope someone finds a way around the speed-of-light-speed-limit, so we can start doing the Star Trek thing for real. lol
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Winston Smith says:
February 6, 2016 at 5:36 am
I think humanity will eventually figure out the secret to interstellar travel. Hey, we eventually have to get off this rock before the sun goes supernova. But I don’t know if we will see it in our lifetime.
WS
Winston Smith says:
February 6, 2016 at 5:39 am
I might have posted this before, but a great book to check out about future technology: Tomorrowland: Our Journey from Science Fiction to Science Fact – Steven Kotler – http://www.amazon.com/Tomorrowland-Journey-Science-Fiction-Fact/dp/1501230735
WS
Deep Thinker says:
February 6, 2016 at 8:04 am
Turns out Einstein was wrong and there is no speed of light limit. His thought experiments are not real experiments.
Quantum Mechanics has proven that there appears to be a universal time that is in sync with the entire universe instantaneously.
Do a google search on Quantum Entanglement.
Also NASA is researching a Sub-Light Drive. It was originally poo-pooed but after the Chinese proved the concept works, they have jumped onboard.
SIRIUS says:
February 6, 2016 at 8:05 am
Actually, what’s faster than the speed of light is “thinking” about getting from Point A to Point B.
IMHO
dogstar
Tara says:
February 6, 2016 at 8:20 am
There is an amazing book called The Hunt for Zero Point by Nick Cook. I couldn’t put it down. This guys search for truth is compelling. Takes you back to the Nazi’s using Jews for anti gravity experiments and then the whole cover up by them and the US raid on the war bunker where all this was going on. Of course they tried to hush it all up. Nick Cook used to work for Jane’s so is a reputable journalist.
GEM says:
February 6, 2016 at 9:48 am
Rock on anonymous: Can’t wait for the birth of Zefran Cochrane…maybe I will be around to see his birth.
We will find out the answer to many of our questions when he makes first contact!
Man from the lions pit says:
February 6, 2016 at 11:02 pm
How about sharks ? I’m sure he see ahead like horse….But your question is valid.Some predators in nature are well equip and design in order to kill.Some humans included with their sicko killer brain :-(
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Michael says:
February 5, 2016 at 2:15 pm
> I sent the quote from the 1974 Awake and the image from the 1982 Creation book to Prof. Octávio Mateus
I sent the quote from the 1975 Awake…
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Susannah says:
February 5, 2016 at 2:24 pm
Thanks for picking that up. It will be changed.
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dee2 says:
February 6, 2016 at 12:56 am
@Susannah:
Thus we find the seventh “day” of the creative week to be seven thousand years long. On the basis of the length of the seventh “day” it is therefore reasonable to conclude that each of the other six “days” also was a period of 7,000 years.
–Watchtower 2/15/1970 p.120
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LEVI MATTHEUS says:
February 5, 2016 at 2:30 pm
I am not, nor have ever been a Jehovah’s Witness but I am a Christian. I do not believe in evolution. A chicken is a chicken not a “terrible lizard” as that is what the word “dinosaur” means. In short, it is not a reptile.
The Bible teaches that God created vegetable, bird, animal and fish life according to their “genus” or kinds.
God created the world perfect but death came into the world through Adam’s sin (by the way science has proven through DNA that all mankind comes from just one couple). The whole of creation groans and travails awaiting the manifestation of the sons of God. In other words the resurrection and the New heavens and earth that God will create.
I believe this because it has been revealed to me by God in the Holy Bible not because some JW organisation of men or for that matter some professor has said so.
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phoenix_rising says:
February 5, 2016 at 3:25 pm
I also enjoy the store of a traveler from the heavens who came to earth. He was good with kids and was capable of healing those hurt. He died only to rise again in white and return to the heavens. His name? E.T. the Extraterrestrial.
Just as plausible but far more entertaining.
*cheers*
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Caroline says:
February 5, 2016 at 4:12 pm
@LEVI MATTHEUS, I don’t believe for one minute that you are not a Jehovah’s Witness and never have been by the way your comment went. It sounds like it’s straight out of Watchtower.
You say that you “believe” what you are saying because God of the Holy Bible revealed to you through the Bible and that what the Bible says about the beginning of life and the earth is how it really happened.
I have given it a lot of thought too and I “believe” that the story of Adam and Eve and the serpent and the Garden of Eden and the eating of the tree of good and bad and the tree of life is an allegory, in explaining to ancient people why humans know right from wrong and because of that, they realize that they will die in the end.
I believe it’s a story or an allegory explaining the difference between animals and people because animals don’t know the difference between right and wrong and even though they don’t want to die and they run to escape death (in the wild or squirrels crossing the road) they don’t think about getting old and getting sick or how they will die like humans do.
I don’t take the story of Adam and Eve or the flood as literal but the Watchtower does so if you take the Bible for what it “really” says, God created the earth and all that it’s in it in 6 “days”.
What the Watchtower religion and other religions do is to take the Bible and explain it away because anybody with an ounce of brains realizes that the earth and all that’s in it, could not have been “created” in 6 literal days.
I have the old Watchtower evolution book from 1967 and it went on and on about how unreliable carbon dating was to disprove what scientists were saying about how old the Cambrian layer was. I was stupid enough in those days to buy all that “explaining” away what scientists were saying about how old the earth and the fossils were.
I didn’t question it then because it never would have dawned on me in a million years that the Watchtower makes up stuff to fool the foolish of the world and I was really foolish to think that I had just happened on the real “true” religion, out of all the religions of the world and that the Watchtower was above lying to me. I bought it hook line and sinker just as their latest renditions of trying to disprove evolution.
Now I realize that when it comes to greed and power, that no organization is exempt, including the Watchtower.
When you say that God created the world perfect, I am assuming you are talking about human beings too? Why would God create the man’s penis with a foreskin on it, only to be chopped off at birth, like there’s something wrong with it? Don’t you think it serves a useful purpose? It seems to me that if God created the penis with a foreskin on it, then that’s the way a penis should be and why should it be chopped off? Why would God require it since he made it that way in the first place?
Can you explain why the foreskin should be chopped off to be pleasing to Jehovah?
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anonymous4 says:
February 5, 2016 at 5:54 pm
Owwwww. Which reminds me of another quick question. OK, suppose Mr. & Mrs. Adam screwed up, ate from the naughty tree, & therefore all their offspring get f***ed. So Jesus comes to die for us – right? – to buy us back with his life – to DIE, right??? OK, WTF is up with all the suffering & brutality? Why was he scourged (watch clips of Passion of the Christ to really get a sense of it), beaten, tortured, left to hang on a TORTURE stake (WT terminology), suffer in AGONY??? Senseless.
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Jeff says:
February 5, 2016 at 8:20 pm
I like how Richard Rohr puts it when he says ” as soon as you read that god forbids them to eat the fruit you know they are going to do it. It drives the story forward.” Or something roughly thereabouts.
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Jeff says:
February 5, 2016 at 8:25 pm
Substitutionary atonement theory is a weird beast. If you take Jesus death mythologically and metaphorically then it doesn’t have to end up as some barbaric transaction demanded by an equally barbaric notion of a God.
anonymous4 says:
February 6, 2016 at 12:13 am
Exactly. There r folks who argue, regarding the “Armageddon” thing, that God can kill whoever He wants. I agree. He’s God. Of course He can kill whoever He wants. I know there are mitigating factors, His justice, love, etc, that may preclude Him from killing the innocent like a stone-cold psychopath. But the point is, He is not BOUND by any external laws or requirements. So by the same logic, why the heck would He need to perform some Universal tit-for-tat to “balance the scales” B4 He can ‘save’ mankind? What scales? Where r they? Who made them? & why would GOD be beholden to them? He’s God. He can snap his fingers, & Presto! – Mankind is forgiven. If someone wrongs u, do u need to perform a sacrifice in order to forgive them. Sorry, this is kinda off-topic. Shutting up now.
Winston Smith says:
February 6, 2016 at 5:50 am
@A4
Good assessment. I think when we read tales of God’s indiscriminate destruction due to seemingly minor offenses, we are reading the thoughts of primitive people trying to make sense out of why bad things happen. Since they believed that both the blessing and the malediction came from God (and notice in the OT how little the devil gets blamed for stuff – other than Eve and Job, he doesn’t get much credit) when something bad happened they were trying to figure out what they did to piss the BIG GUY off
WS
Levi says:
February 6, 2016 at 5:17 pm
I am certainly not a JW as I believe in the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Holy Trinity.
It was Christ Himself who said “He that made them in the beginning made them male and female”.
The Apostle Paul taught that by one man sin entered the world and by it death and so death passed upon all mankind.
As to your belief it is an allegory, an allegory of what principle truth? What was then the purpose of our Lord’s incarnation, death and resurrection if not go negate the awful consequences of the Fall.
As for circumcision, this was a Covenant instituted with Abraham and Israel as a sign in their flesh of the promise God made that in Abraham’s seed (Christ) would all nations be blessed. Covenants in scripture involve the shedding of blood.
Not all men have their foreskin cut off. It is no longer necessary as the circumcision that is required is of the heart and that, according to the holy prophets was what It was all about.
I think it is a pity that you think the only people who believe the Bible is the Word of God are JWs. That is ironic because their exegesis and hermeneutics are appalling. The problem with them is that they study what the watchtower tells them the Bible says and when they realise they have been lied to they chuck the whole lot away. The evil one has thus inoculated them against the true gospel of our God our Saviour and simple faith in Jesus Christ.
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Winston Smith says:
February 5, 2016 at 9:41 pm
To the best of my knowledge, science has proven that we all have a common female ancestor (not a couple) and she lived some 200,000 years ago, not a mere 6,000 years ago. See: http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/evolution/female-ancestor.htm
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Levi says:
February 6, 2016 at 5:30 pm
Hi Winston that is a theory that was superseded in the early naughtiest by the discovery of the hobbit people, was it homo Floriensis? Which stated that we came from a couple. Either way it demonstrates the shifting nature of evolutionary theory which is constantly changing (a bit like the WTBTS) its position. But the Word of God lives and abides forever. Common sense tells us that if there was a female there must have been a male. The Proverbs say This I know God made man upright, but they have sought out many inventions. In his epistle to the Romans Paul stated that man did not want to retain God in his knowledge and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing themselves wise they became fools…
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Big B says:
February 5, 2016 at 3:36 pm
Great article Susannah;
When I was a young boy I loved dinosaurs; couldn’t get enough of them. I had learned the names for all of them (at least the popular ones). I was hoping to be either an archaeologist or paleontologist and either find hidden cities in South America or discover more types of dinosaurs out in the Bad Lands of the United States. However, as a good Jehovah’s Witness that type of career choice was, of course, frowned upon as being too worldly. After all, with Armageddon “just around the corner” that type of career would require more than just a couple of years of Community College but a full blown college degree past a Bachelors Degree in Science possibly even a Doctorate.
The Watchtower society has fallen in the same trap as the Catholic Church fell in during the times of the Renaissance, namely the confusion of scientific fact and the literal interpretation of scripture as applied to science. Galileo was unfortunately made the whipping boy for the Catholic churches ire. How dare he question the authority of the holy church and their interpretation of the scriptures in regards to physical science? Sound vaguely familiar? It should–as any Jehovah’s Witnesses could conclusively tell you.
The same thing holds true with their illogical misinterpretation of the “creative day’s” mentioned in Genesis. Who (other than the Watchtower) or where does the Bible mention that these creative days were 7,000 years each? Anyone with any public education past the second grade has read or at least studied that the earth is millions and millions of years old. The Watchtower Society is governed by a cabal made up of seven mental dwarfs governing the lives and thoughts of around 7 million kool-aid drinking dupes. The entire governing body, if questioned, probably has not one collective bachelor’s degree among them. In other words: If their brains were dynamite they couldn’t summon up the collective energy to blow their noses.
Reasoning people have discovered, through the fossil record, that there were many kinds of dinosaurs some of which are still being discovered and named almost monthly. My little toy chest couldn’t begin to hold all the dinosaurs (toys) that have been discovered since my early childhood. What’s really impressive and wonderful is that they were all successful, reproduced and had their glorious moment of life on earth before becoming extinct millions—yes, millions of years ago.
All mankind should grow to appreciate all of these discoveries of extinct creatures and study them. Not just for the sake of knowledge and pleasure that this brings but then apply that knowledge and appreciation to what we have today with so many animals facing extinction and not by “natural selection” or some other natural cataclysm but by our disregard for our own planet. After all once something becomes extinct it’s very difficult to reanimate.
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Winston Churchill says:
February 5, 2016 at 3:39 pm
Dinosaurs are very real. I found an old fossil yesterday . It was 22 million years old so the science museum told me & I could just make out a faint inscription on it . The old fossil had big eyes& big nose & a very very Big head & the inscription on it was signed by a Neanderthal called S.Letts ?
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Tim smith says:
February 5, 2016 at 3:45 pm
Wow! Excellent article. Thank you very much. I have always had an amateur interest in dinosaurs and just finished a book called dinosaur odyssey. If you get a chance check it out. It is not light reading by any means but it is extremely informative.
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Winston Churchill says:
February 5, 2016 at 4:19 pm
I remember back in the 1970s using the green blue (turquoise) little book called ‘ Hold Fast to What is Fine’ which discussed each Creative Day as being 7000 years long. It was carried over from Russell’s time .
The point the Society made was That Adam & Eve were created at the End of the Sixth Day which was after 42,000 years. The 7th day supposedly began in 4026 B.C so that meant 6000 years would end in …. Wait for it… Yes !! … 1975!!! Oh My MY & Voila , pardon my French , the beginning of the 1000 year reign of Christ which at the end would be the end of the 7th Creative Day !! So the Spiritual Wizard .. Mr Fred Franz led us gullible JWs to believe.
But Brothers . Hey it was all our fault for looking for dates & reading too much into things said by the Watchtower! Silly me it was all my humble fault. Oh strike me down with a bolt of lightning or raining flaming Hot Dogs!
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anonymous4 says:
February 5, 2016 at 5:44 pm
I love all the colors of the book covers – like, “Look at all the pretty colors!”
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Winston Smith says:
February 6, 2016 at 5:59 am
I remember hearing about one “Bible Study” (student) who referred to the old NWT as “the green Bible” and I think it was the truth book as “the blue Bible”. Shows how ignorant some people are in distinguishing between an accepted holy book and a mere commentary written by a group of men. (although you might consider some of the liberties taken with the NWT commentary).
Some people are willing to listen to any voice of authority telling them how to live their lives.
WS
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Tara says:
February 5, 2016 at 9:46 pm
You might like this song by Hazel Oconnor…. 8th day
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/h/hazel+oconnor/eighth+day_20204894.html
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Winston Smith says:
February 5, 2016 at 9:51 pm
Russell had taught that 6000 years of human history ended in 1874/1875, but Fred Franz came up with a new chronology which moved the starts point up 100 years. As I have commented before, you play around with numbers to get them to say whatever you want.
WS
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Winston Churchill says:
February 6, 2016 at 3:52 pm
Yes! Russell liked the numbers game. Numbers by pyramids. Russell’s pyramid scheme is still running after 140 years . The longest pyramid scheme in history.
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anonymous4 says:
February 5, 2016 at 6:47 pm
@ rob
I think u hit on something in a previous comment. U talked about JWs being super-excited after “new light” at conventions, phoning each other up to discuss it, etc. It seems WT Dogma is designed to be innately changeable & ever-changing. People of other faiths are content to meet on a certain day of the week, sing a couple songs, listen to a sermon, throw a little $ in the plate, & enjoy the socialization. But The Watcthower demands so much in terms of time, energy, $$, & other resources, not to mention blind obedience, etc, that they MUST keep changing doctrine, telling new stories, or at least a new slant on the old ones, so-called “new light”, just to keep the rank & file interested enough to keep pushing the Watchtower Grindstone. Like the proverbial dangling carrot.
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dee2 says:
February 6, 2016 at 1:06 am
About that Adam & Eve story:
1. Pity Adam & Eve didn’t eat from the tree of life first, since it wasn’t banned.
2. According to Genesis 3:22 it was the act of eating from the tree of life that would make Adam & Eve immortal which is why god had to ban them from the garden of Eden so that they could not eat from the tree of life and live after they had sinned. So whether or not they ate from the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and bad they needed to eat from the tree of life in order to become immortal.
In order for Adam and Eve to have lived eternally, they would have had to eat from the Tree of Life; their own perfect bodies could not sustain living forever.
Whether or not they ate from the forbidden tree they were going to die anyway as they were never originally made immortal.
They still could have lived forever if only they had eaten from the tree of life. So, it was not eating from the forbidden tree that killed them – it was not eating from the tree of life that killed them.
So they didn’t lose immortal life when they ate from the forbidden tree of knowledge of good and bad because they were not immortal to begin with. So the question is – what was Jesus Christ’s sacrifice replacing since Adam & Eve were not immortal to begin with; they weren’t made immortal so they didn’t lose immortality when they sinned.
3. According to WT theology, TWO perfect lives were lost, yet there was only ONE ransom sacrifice.
4. According to Gen 3:22, it was the tree of life that would make Adam & Eve immortal not Jesus’ sacrifice. Despite Jesus’ sacrifice, in the book of Revelation, when all is said and done perfect mankind will still need to eat of the tree of life, according to WT theology:
Revelation 2:7
“To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God”.
Revelation 22: 2, 14:
“In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations”.
“Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.”
5. Adam & Eve were supposed to have died in the day they ate the forbidden fruit, however that didn’t happen so god lied – Adam lived for 930 years and had children, one of his sons was born when Adam was 800 years old, so assumedly, Eve was still around up to that time (Genesis 5:3-5). According to the WT “day” has several meanings:
– 1 day
– 77.14 days
– 360 days
– 1 year
-1,000 years
– 7,000 yearshttp://www.jehovahswitnessblog.com/beliefs/time/
Would Adam & Eve have known the latter meanings which were given centuries later?
6. The snake’s words were shown to be reliable and true. It is God who is shown to be a deceiver. Adam and Eve did not die; rather, they benefited from eating the fruit: they obtained a moral sense.
The serpent was accurate and truthful throughout Genesis chapter 3. God’s words in Genesis 3:22 are essentially identical to the serpent’s prediction in Genesis 3:5 – Adam and Eve had developed a moral sense, previously possessed only by the Gods.
7. According to Genesis 3:17 – 19, only Adam and Eve were cursed. God did not mention the extension of the curse to Adam and Eve’s children and later descendants – the WT however, teaches otherwise.
8. In the Bible we are told that children do not die for the sins of their parents:
Ezekiel 18:20:
“The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him”.
Yet according to the WT, god has condemned not only Adam & Eve to death, but their children as well.
9. According to the WT, Adam’s & Eve’s sin passed on diseases, sickness and death to their descendants. One wonders – why didn’t god allow Adam & Eve to die in the very day they ate the forbidden fruit before they had a chance to have children and pass on their bad DNA?
According to WT theology, at the end of Christ’s 1000 year reign, people will be perfect just like Adam & Eve but some will disobey when tested and will consequently be destroyed.
Also according to the bible god destroyed all the wicked persons during the flood of Noah’s day and only left the righteous.
One wonders – couldn’t god have done similarly with Adam & Eve?
Couldn’t he have put Adam & Eve to death and keep repeating the process until he found a human pair who would obey before allowing them to have children?
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dee2 says:
February 6, 2016 at 1:20 am
About that Adam & Eve story cont’d:
10. God didn’t want Adam & Eve to know the difference between good and bad, right from wrong as this was an attribute restricted to the gods. They were created without a moral sense, with no knowledge of right or wrong – just as toddlers lack such knowledge. Adam & Eve were like the animals in one sense: They had no knowledge of good and evil; of right and wrong. They were devoid of a moral sense. Only gods had such knowledge at the time.
Genesis 3:5:
“For God does know that in the day you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil”.
Genesis 3:22:
“Then the Lord God said, ‘Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil’ “.
They lacked moral sense. They had no concept of right or wrong. They could only get the knowledge to NOT eat from the tree, only if they DID eat of that tree. They developed a moral sense for the first time after eating the forbidden fruit.
They had no moral sense – they couldn’t differentiate between right and wrong so why put the tree of good and evil in the garden? It seems God went out of his way to ensure his creation failed his test – why not put the tree out of their reach in Alaska?
God made this tree “desirable to the eyes” and “pleasing to look at” (Genesis 3:6). In effect, God was the first being to have created an entrapment. The evidence is there for all to see. He wanted Adam and Eve (and the entire human population that followed them according to WT theology) to fail and fall into sin.
11. These two humans had no idea what “bad” meant. They ate from the tree because they didn’t understand what “bad” meant. When they ate from the tree, they now understood what “bad” and “good” was so why such a harsh punishment of diseases, sickness, and death not only for them but for all humanity (according to WT theology)?
It was only after the two ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that they developed a moral sense, and thus could be held responsible for disobeying God. But he blamed them, and their billions of descendants anyway.
A harsh and unfair God, harshly punishes a naive couple and everything else.
12. How did eating the forbidden fruit make them now understood the difference between good and bad?
The snake was being accurate and helpful. He implied that the fruit was not poisonous. He said that if Eve ate the fruit she would magically and instantly develop a moral sense. For the first time, she would be able to distinguish good from evil; right from wrong. For the first time, she would share this attribute with the Gods.
Eating fruit provides one’s body with vitamins, minerals to nourish their body, so the forbidden fruit must have had some special chemical that worked on Adam’s & Eve’s brains to give them moral sense.
In reality, people do not acquire a new talent by eating fruit; we are dealing with a myth here.
13. God being omniscient proactively took steps to ban Adam & Eve from the garden of Eden after they sinned as he foreknew that they would eat from the tree of life and live. Yet he didn’t foreknow that they would eat from the tree with the forbidden fruit and thereby take steps to put the tree with the forbidden fruit out of their reach – only the tree of life was deserving of such a proactive action.
God didn’t have the foresight with regard to their eating from the tree of the knowledge of good & evil but he did in the case of the tree of life
Having the foresight to realize what would happen if Adam and Eve remained in the Garden of Eden, God takes the precaution of putting a barrier between them and the Tree of Life.
Or is it that God is not omniscient – not even of high intelligence – because he did not realize that without a moral sense, Eve and Adam would probably eat the fruit sooner or later?
Any parent who puts a plate of cookies in front of their 12 month-old infant and tells them not to eat any is aware of what the infant will do.
14. The anachronisms in the text:
Genesis 3:19:
“In the sweat of your face you shall eat ***bread*** Till you return to the ground…..”
Genesis 3:24:
“After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming ***sword***flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.”
Did Adam & Eve know what a sword and bread were? (they were eating from fruit trees). These things weren’t invented until years after the garden of Eden incident – apparently god was the inventor of the first weapon.
15. Genesis 3:14,15 is a good indication that the snake is a serpent and not Satan in disguise. Otherwise it would make no sense for God to have punished all later generations of snakes – the curse on the snake has continued to the present time.
Satan does not appear in Genesis or in the rest of the Pentateuch. Talking snakes and other animals are often found in ancient religious myths of the Middle East, where they represent real animals.
16. According to the WT, “us” in Genesis 3:22 refers to God and Jesus Christ who was a co-creator:
“And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us…..”
The foregoing arguments served to highlight that the story of Adam and Eve in Genesis 3 is a myth. As such “us” refers to multiple Gods as the passage was copied from a Pagan Middle Eastern source who followed a polytheistic religion:http://www.religioustolerance.org/com_geba.htm
A good indication that Genesis 3 is a myth is that no trace of the Garden of Eden and of the Cheribims have ever been found. Of course, if Noah’s flood ( http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_st.htm#flood )
actually happened, it could have wiped out all trace of the Garden of Eden.
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Jeff says:
February 6, 2016 at 12:11 pm
Have you noticed the story of Adam and Eve and their children very neatly describes a transition from hunter gatherer to herdsman and farming landowner to urban dwelling human? As well in this description there is always a loss of some innocence and ignorance with each successive step. I find that interesting in terms of the story and what it meant for the people writing and the intended audience( which was specifically early monarchy jews not 21 century moderns). Not to say that an understanding of any myth in its original context is completely without benefit for modern people but our take will always be differant than that of the original audience.
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Winston Smith says:
February 6, 2016 at 12:32 pm
Very good assessment dee2. Ever notice similarities between the Adam and Eve story and the Greek myth of Pandora? See http://myths.e2bn.org/mythsandlegends/textonly562-pandoras-box.html
WS
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Levi says:
February 6, 2016 at 5:56 pm
Hi Dee,
God demonstrates his love for us that while we were still sinners Christ died for us. Being reconciled by His life how much more will be saved from wrath by Him. Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.
Adam sinned because he, not being deceived like the woman was, deliberately stood by and disobeyed God. We all sinned in him. Sin is imputed to us as a consequence. But because of His great love with which He loved us the Creator came and took the wrap for us fulfilling the scriptures.
Not to lead us to an organisation to which we must be joined to get to God but to become one with Him by His Spirit to be included in His death, burial and resurrection. If we believe on Him the Great sinbearer, our sins are forgiven and are not imputed to us. We are baptised spiritually into His body the Church, being bone of His bones and flesh of His flesh.
Love and justice met at Calvary’s cross.
Because in the wisdom of God, the world by wisdom cannot know God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe. For the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing but to us who are being saved it is the power of God to salvation.
For the Jews require a sign and the Greeks seek after wisdom but we preach Christ crucicied, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness. But to those who are called both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
Because the foolishness of God is wider than men and the weakness of God is wider than men.
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Levi says:
February 6, 2016 at 6:10 pm
Two observations :
1. It was David in Psalm 51 who taught original sin and the great Apostle Paul who asserted it definitively in that masterpiece of Christian logic the Epistle to the Romans.
2. It was the Apostle John inn the Apocalypse 12th chapter that taught that Satan was the serpent as did the Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 11 (if you read the context here).
I
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Caroline says:
February 7, 2016 at 4:35 am
Dee, I loved your comment and it all made such good sense.
@Levi, if the Genesis account is to be believed, I have some questions that I’d like you to answer for me.
According to Genesis, there were some bad angels who came to the earth and had sex with women and they produced offspring called the Nephilim, and because of that, according to Genesis 6:3, God said that he was going to limit the life of men to 120 years and then God said that because people were so bad he was going to wipe people off the earth in the flood.
My questions are: How did the angels “create” bodies for themselves that were capable of producing children since only Jesus was the one that created everything? Also, why would God say that he was going to limit man’s life to 120 years when he had planned in killing them all off (before) the flood even happened? It seems that before the flood he said he was going to let them live to 120 years and then he decides to kill them all off anyway with the flood. Does that make any sense? He should have limited their life spans after the flood, not before and after the flood, Noah lived to be over 900 years old when God had said before the flood that he’d only live to 120 years. Shouldn’t he have died before the flood then since long before the flood, God had limited men’s life to 120 years?
My most important question was though is: How could angels “create” the human body, capable of producing children since only God through Jesus was supposed to be able to “create” all that was on the earth?
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Caroline says:
February 6, 2016 at 4:41 am
@dee2. Your comment was amazing! I am going to cut and paste it and print it out so I don’t ever lose it. It puts into words what my mind has always thought but never put down on paper. It all makes perfect sense.
In the latest jwbroadcasting, somewhere in it (can’t remember where), the brother tells the Witnesses not to “over think” the things they read. In other words, just accept what we say and believe it and don’t question it or you will be confused. That to me says it all. Don’t think.
Your comment comes from “thinking”, which Witnesses are told not to do and they follow that line of cult speak because they think that God is Watchtower and the Governing Body are the “Guardians of Doctrine” or G.O.D. ” to the Witnesses G (guardians) O (of) D (doctrine) as Geoffrey Jackson told the Royal commission in Australia last summer.
According to the Bible, Jehovah created “evil” as Isaiah 45:7 says in the King James Bible (printed by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society), which of course the Watchtower had to replace the word evil with calamity in their version of a Bible called the New World Translation.
I also want to thank you for the links you put in your comment.
If people actually think about what their Bibles really say, they should take them at face value. For instance, when the Bible says “day”, it should be taken literally and not figuratively, like for instance when the Bible says at Revelation 20:15 that “whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire”, then that is what it should mean, that they will be burned forever and ever and tortured forever and forever.
Many churches take the Bible for what it says in that they believe in a literal hell fire but that is supposed to be one of the real reasons that the “truth” is really the “truth” of the Bible in that Witnesses don’t believe in a literal hell fire but there again, they believe what they want to believe. They wouldn’t like Jehovah that much if they thought that whoever really wasn’t a witness was going to be burned forever and forever and tortured forever and forever. What would they think of Jehovah if they thought that their children who never accepted the “truth” were going to be burned and tortured forever and forever? So, the Society rewrites or explains what it really says away so that Jehovah is more acceptable to them. But many churches really do believe in a literal hell fire and they will move heaven and earth to convert because they don’t want that to happen to their loved ones.
The Watchtower Governing Body thinks think that they can interpret the Bible the way they want to interpret the Bible to make the their god Jehovah a “God of love” and not a God who creates evil so the rank and file don’t “over think” the Scriptures.
The Governing Body want Witnesses to believe that Jehovah is a God of love who would never literally “torture” people in a lake of fire so they explain passages away like that and Witnesses are taught to not “over think” their explanations or maybe their heads would explode or horrors of horrors, lose their faith in that God, which would mean the Society’s downfall.
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Caroline says:
February 7, 2016 at 1:41 pm
I would like to add to my last comment above. Another thing that is supposed to show that the “truth” is really the “truth”, different than Christendon which is supposed to be worshipping a false God, is that according to the Bible, supposedly, there is no immortal soul that can be destroyed and suffer forever and forever in a hell fire but if you take the Bible for what it really says at Matthew 10:28, the soul is different than the body and can suffer forever and ever in a literal hell fire as Revelation says.
In the book “The Truth that leads to Eternal Life” published by the Watchtower society in 1968 chapter 5 “Where are the Dead?”, not once is Matthew 10:28 brought up, which was deceitful and was meant to be deceitful to fool people who trusted the Society not to lie to them and to fool people who didn’t know much about what the Bible really says, who could bring up that scripture to the Witness calling at their door or studying with them.
I was so proud of using that book in service because I thought it was really the “truth” but now I realize it wasn’t the “truth” that leads to eternal life at all but was a “carrot” to attract the people who thought that maybe, just maybe that if they believed what the Society was telling them, that they wouldn’t have to die.
It was the Society’s rendition of the “truth”, but it did not teach what the Bible really says about the soul, which is supposed to be one of the critical teachings that makes it different than Christendom.
Charles Taze Russell was right about the fact that if Witnesses read the Bible all by itself, they will resort to what Christendom teaches and that is because everything in the Bible that the Society teaches that isn’t a doctrine that is unique to the Witness religion, Witnesses are encouraged to read their rendition of the Bible and to go to their publications published by the Society that “explain it all away” so they don’t lose faith in the Organization, which is what they unknowingly really worship.
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rikos says:
February 6, 2016 at 6:26 am
From now on jehovah witnesses will walk in to darkness day by day. the government body will teach the rack only dogmatic information, and brainwash, fear, mind control, money, authority, obedience and many more. JW will move away from educational subject because they were told do not read or look nothing outside of JW publications because these kind of subjects rise questions which lead to exit.
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ruthlee says:
February 6, 2016 at 7:02 am
dee2 although lengthy you have made some great points and observations. It all seems a bit pointless doesn’t it? It does seem the creator of the first parents set them up for a fall but it does not answer why we the children have to suffer. it seems an elaborate waste of time and life force that self perpetuates for very little reason. Hardly a spiritual one unless you conclude this IS a testing ground for a later existence. So what naughty thing did the dinosuars do?Ruthlee
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SIRIUS says:
February 6, 2016 at 7:49 am
@dee2, great reading! Certainly a box opener.
One comment…
>>>16. According to the WT, “us” in Genesis 3:22 refers to God and Jesus Christ who was a co-creator: “And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us…..”
Re: “US”. Whether one believes in 1+1=2(Gods) or 1×1=1(God) is fascinating subject. Still more fascinating is God then takes counsel with Himself, “God said, ‘Let us make man in our image, in our likeness’”, Genesis 1:26. This may or may not be an explicit revelation of the trinity but is part of the foundation for such, as God reveals an “us” within The God. Since JWs are big on Names (i.e. Jehovah & Jesus(Saint Michael)) no wherein the Scriptures is a personal name applied to the holy spirit per the WT reading. Odd though, WT admits that the Greek word for spirit (pneuma) is used of the demons. Why would these nameless beings called “spirits” be an entity, and the nameless Holy Spirit not be a entity?
IMHO
dogstar
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Winston Smith says:
February 6, 2016 at 12:29 pm
The Greek word pneuma can also be translated “wind.” Hence we get the English term pneumatic which refers to something that operates via air pressure.
WS
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SwimmingWild says:
February 6, 2016 at 8:49 am
As quoted – “The God of the bible did not enlighten them. The science of the world proved them wrong.”
There’s a “God of the bible” and there are many other gods – different ways to understand the arbitrariness of life. None are “real”, a lot are useful.
This site is about a cult – about a bad actor which causes harm, and is good at mind control – and about helping each other understand how we’ve been controlled.
Not forking over bible based stuff – these are just stories – and all that belongs on some other site. In my opinion…
SwimmingWild
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Sparlock says:
February 6, 2016 at 9:25 am
The bible does not claim that there was a global flood and it most definitely does not claim that any flood killed off the dinosaurs as the article states.
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Caroline says:
February 6, 2016 at 11:04 am
@Sparlock, are you joking?
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Winston Smith says:
February 6, 2016 at 12:45 pm
The wording in Genesis and in 2 Peter does seem to indicate a global deluge. It talks about the earth and/or the world being covered by water. I suppose you could take it to mean the known world at that time. After all, if all of humanity was centered around Africa and the Middle East, why would a Global Deluge be necessary to kill off everyone?
WS
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anonymous4 says:
February 6, 2016 at 3:35 pm
Potato – PoTAHto
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Winston Churchill says:
February 6, 2016 at 4:07 pm
@A4 . When you say PoTahto , is that referring to the new dinosaurs that have been discovered in the Utah Desert ? You may have heard it on Reuters Newsflash…. New Dinosaur called Potatohead Sanderson & Vietnamsaurus Morris & Overlappingsaurus Splane & Pedophiliasaurus Jackson , etc I
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anonymous4 says:
February 7, 2016 at 1:04 am
LOL
…on their way to extinction too………
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Tara says:
February 7, 2016 at 8:36 am
I was trying to think up some such names for the elite 7 but couldn’t get past dickasauruses.
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Winston Churchill says:
February 7, 2016 at 10:34 am
Tara!! Your new name for the 7 dinosaurs is frankly a Revelation!!
But please don’t flatter them it might go to their heads. The fossil remains for dickosaureses have been found at the contaminated site at Warwick & I believe they are glowing green … Now that’s a sight for sore eyes. They do say Mens Brains are in their pants ??
Levi says:
February 6, 2016 at 6:35 pm
Objective science shows us that water finds it’s own level. If the top of all the high mountains were covered by like 22 feet it must have been a global flood.
Immanuel Velikovsky’s Earth in Upheaval demonstrates the global evidence for catastrophic destruction, including of dinosaurs. It evinced such evidence as corals and shellfish atop Everest and whole populations of fauna that have been decimated. Given that every dinosaur DVD I have watched and I own at least 25, some of which are box sets, testify that most dinosaurs were covered by water of some kind, sometimes whole herds by tsunamis, then I am inclined to go with the flood theory. Whether it was the Deluge that left the earth without form and void and covered with water or the Noachian deluge that wiped out most of em is another matter.
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Winston Churchill says:
February 6, 2016 at 3:57 pm
Sparlock . Interesting comment. What’s your view of 2Peter 3v3-7 ?
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Reader says:
February 6, 2016 at 4:58 pm
Dear all,
You cannot prove either Creation or Evolution by scientific method, no witnesses & not observable or demonstably repeatable in both cases.
There are some groups out there who do try to make the case for Creation and have some interesting things to say. [google “grady s mcmurtry” admitedly a man without any ms training, but his arguments on whats not there….]
When I consider, Earth orbit, axis tilt, magnetic field, and so many ideal goldilocks conditions.
For me Evolution just does not cut it.
Reader
Reply
Levi says:
February 6, 2016 at 6:37 pm
I agree Reader. Fair comment. Evolution is being foisted on people by a neo orthodox elite in Academia.
Reply
Winston Smith says:
February 7, 2016 at 7:22 am
Reader,
As reflected in my other comment below, the last part of your comment indicates either/or thinking, something pushed on our minds by JW conditioning. Social scientists sometimes call this (excuse the negative connotation) making a fool’s choice; blindly assuming that one option negates the other, when that is not true.
Evolution does not answer questions such as: how did the universe start? what caused the first single-celled organism? Evolution is simply the process that evidently occurred once life on this planet was put in place. Yes, some scientists have suggested answers to these other questions, such as the Big Bang, but even so, what caused that?
Evolution cannot replace faith in a creator. It is simply a process that seems to fit the evidence that we have on hand. It IS scientific because it is based on observation of the evidence that exists, even if we cannot exactly reproduce it in a lab. The fact that the earth and planets orbit the sun cannot be replicated and tested in a lab, but you do not question this scientific fact, do you?
Although some scientists may try to use evolution to justify an atheistic point of view, they are sadly misapplying this scientific theorem. The whole concept of evolution vs creation is a fool’s choice. One does not in any way negate the other.
WS
Reply
Reader says:
February 7, 2016 at 3:54 pm
Dear WD
Did feel attracted to the evolution idea in my younger days but it never managed more than that.
Most of my working life has been in industrial manufacture and Nature looks MADE to me, though granted that establishes no holy ordanance in itself.
I see no reason to rebuke God, because I was mislead by [a] man.
Reply
Winston Smith says:
February 7, 2016 at 9:40 pm
Reader,
I also have some experience in manufacturing, as well as science and engineering. As a designer, a human makes something that is good for only a few purposes or just one. But a truly great designer like God could certainly make something that can be whatever it needs to become and can grow and change. That is what the fossil record seems to indicate happened. Even something as simple as a tree, starts off as a tiny acorn and there seems to be little similarity from the initial product to the end product. Why does it have to be that God causes things to magically appear as opposed to letting them slowly evolve? The latter seems consistent with his other works.
As I stated before, accepting evoluoton does not eliminate God from the picture. It can merely help us understand how he operates.
WS
Reply
Alexandria R says:
February 6, 2016 at 6:08 pm
I have something I want to add to what you guys are saying about Adam and Eve. What was inside that apple that gave Adam and Eve dirty minds? Can I have some? Share the love.
Reply
anonymous4 says:
February 7, 2016 at 1:15 am
Funky Cold Medina.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=funky+cold+medina
Reply
Alexandria R says:
February 7, 2016 at 11:07 am
AWESOME. I hadn’t seen that before. I like.
Reply
Alexandria R says:
February 6, 2016 at 7:13 pm
Here’s what I want to add to everyones discussion about the flood. According to a show I watched on Nova there is a theory about what caused the Great Flood. Glaciologist Lonnie Thompson used data he collected from ice cores nearer the Equator to deduce that a mass extinction event took place 5,200 years ago, or about 3100 B.C. Thompson reports that a steep drop in global temperatures was followed by an intense period of warming triggered by unusually large corona mass ejections from the Sun. Ice glaciers melted and sea levels rose. Layers of sediment show during this time 5,200 years ago the united kingdom became an island. Before that it wasn’t an island. The show also showed skubba divers dive down to where an ancient boatyard has been discovered. Some think this is how the story of the flood got started. Most people lived around this area and hadn’t migrated to north and south america yet.
Reply
SwimmingWild says:
February 6, 2016 at 7:14 pm
@Alexandria – the story book about the “God of the bible” – the bible – does recommend the reader views sex as dirty, and women prone to dirtiness – so encouraging followers to think a lot about sex and feel guilty – good job it’s just a story book, so can be safely ignored. There are other gods who promote sex as clean pleasure – I believe.
SwimmingWild
Reply
Bearwoody says:
February 7, 2016 at 12:18 pm
@SwimmingWild @Alexandria – speaking of which, I recently enjoyed a coronal mass ejection myself!
Reply
Alexandria R says:
February 7, 2016 at 3:05 pm
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Reply
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← Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Doomsday Clock
The Friday Column: Watchtower and Dinosaurs
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Posted on February 4, 2016
close-up_dinosaurs_turok_dinosaur_comics_tyrannosaurus_rex_desktop_1024x742_hd-wallpaper-991803“You are eating dinosaur.”
I was sitting next to a Palaeontologist in a chicken restaurant.
“Look at the scales on the chicken’s leg, pure dinosaur. Did you know T.Rex had feathers?” asked Prof. Octávio Mateus, from the University of Nova de Lisboa.
He had been invited to speak to a regional Archeological group, in the Algarve, Portugal, about his life’s work. Professor Mateus had traveled the world to excavate the ancient extinct creatures that have captured our imaginations for over a hundred years: Dinosaurs.
I must admit, my knowledge of dinosaurs is quite limited. I have watched Jurassic Park, I know that children love dinosaurs, but my own childhood dinosaur memory is the front inside page of the green New World Translation of the Bible. The map of the world on the inside cover had a drawing of a dinosaur (not to scale) placed firmly in Africa. (Portugal is part of Tarshish on the map.)
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So what could an ex JW who knows very little about dinosaurs ask an internationally respected Palaeontologist? You got it!
“So err, were all the dinosaurs wiped out in a huge world-wide flood, you know, like the Bible says?”
“No,” he replied, “It was not one event that produced extinction but a process over millions of years. In the Algarve, it is was volcanic action and possible meteor strikes, but not a flood.”
I explained why I asked the question and how one particular organisation is certain that dinosaurs were wiped out in a global flood. I also told him I was looking forward to his presentation that would follow after lunch.
The man born in a dinosaur nest
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Professor Prof. Octávio Mateus
Prof. Octávio Mateus is an engaging, funny, enthusiastic teacher. I say teacher, not only because some of his students were in the audience, but because of how much I learned in the hour or so he spoke with the archeological club.
The Professor likes to say of himself “I was born in a dinosaur nest.” When one knows of the Professor’s history, his meaning becomes clear. Archeology is in his genes; his parents researched the Lourinhã Formation, a rich source of Portuguese fossils and dinosaur eggs.
The professor discussed with us the ancient geological periods in which the dinosaurs lived, the Triassic period (beginning 250 million years ago) then the Jurassic period (ending 150 million years ago), and ending with the Cretaceous period (ending 65 million years ago). Then he want on to tell us that parts of the Algarve region of Portugal are a rich source of dinosaur finds, such as a toothy 2-metre long Salamander; Metoposaurus algarvensis.
supersal
About 210 million years ago, this beast swam and walked across the land very near to where I was sitting.
The research that uncovered Metoposaurus algarvensis was led by the University of Edinburgh in Scotland, with the collaboration of other institutions including the New University of Lisbon, the Lourinhã Museum Portugal and the universities of Edinburgh, Birmingham and the Museum of Natural History in Paris.
The results were written up in the Journal of Vertebrate Palaeontology and published in March 2015.
salamanderskullsImages of remains found in the Algarve excavation were displayed on the screen. They looked like two brown bumpy toilet seats. Paleoantologists believe that Metoposaurus algarvensis ate fish and became extinct due to volcanic eruptions and increasing lack of access to lakes and other bodies of water. The recent dig in 2014 found nine specimens of this kind of dinosaur in a four square metre area. The quantity and quality of this find bode well for even greater discoveries when the team return for a future dig.
While Prof. Mateus was presenting, I had some flashbacks of images. I recalled the Photo-Drama of Creation. I remembered images of the ark with dying dinosaurs.
In the week after Prof. Mateus’ talk, I Googled around some of the issues he raised with some questions. I discovered, joy upon joy, that at the same time as the 1914 Photo-drama of creation was wowing and converting, “Gertie, the Dinosaur,” was produced as one of the first animated films.
Created by Winsor McCay. It features the sauropod dinosaur Brontosaurus. (McCay also created Little Nemo, a weekly fantasy cartoon adventure).
The early Bible Students / Russellites peddled a teaching in 1914 in the Photo-Drama of Creation, “that each of the Seven Days of the Creative Week was a period of seven thousand years. This, seven times seven thousand, equals forty-nine thousand (7×7,000=49,000) years, ushering in a grand Jubilee Epoch.”
Dinosaurs: What does Watchtower think?
Jehova's+Witnesses+Dinosaurs+Photodrama+of+CreationThe Photo-Drama of Creation was an early example of a multi-media presentation; combining as it did moving pictures, full colour slides and audio. It stands to this day as an impressive technological achievement for its era, but is also notable for being, shall we say, a less-than-scientifically-accurate account of the field in which Prof. Octávio Mateus has become such an expert.
In fact, scientifically speaking, it was a mess, peddling as it did Russell’s teaching “that each of the Seven Days of the Creative Week was a period of seven thousand years. This, seven times seven thousand, equals forty-nine thousand (7×7,000=49,000) years, ushering in a grand Jubilee Epoch.”
Russell’s teaching put the age of the Earth at less than 49,000 years old, and thus radically shifted the age when the dinosaurs had roamed the Earth from hundreds of millions of years ago, to just a few thousand.
The Brooklyn Eagle newspaper said at the time that Pastor Russell’s “Advertising methods had already attracted a good deal of attention to himself, and while many referred to him as “the crank preacher of Allegheny,” his unusual lectures and effective publicity methods drew good-sized crowds to his Bible House on Arch Street.”
Russell told the audience who came to watch the photo-drama that, “these Christians were fortified against the creeping infidelity of the modernist movements.” Early converts lapped up Russell’s chronology and the “seven days” continued to be 49,000 literal years right up till fairly recently.
How recently?
Fellow Friday columnists, John and Jane Redwood sent me the text from the 1975 Awake, where Witnesses were assured of certain “facts.”
12510227_421493041381182_1547770582906989096_n
Even as recently as 1982, Watchtower published artwork portraying a wrathful God destroying people, animals, insects….and dinosaurs.
12484781_421488354714984_3304938438537517680_o
In 1982, I was already on my way out of the Watchtower religion. Yet I carried with me the instilled teaching of 7,000 year creative days and of 6,000 years of man’s existence. Of course over the years, those beliefs have been eroded. I think I may have caught a rerun of “When dinosaurs roamed the Earth” on the Discovery Channel.
But I wonder what old time JW’s make of the time scales and the changes in teaching?
In recent years they have become very vague on the subject, seemingly unwilling to engage with the question of the age of the dinosaurs, but tacitly appearing to admit that their age was far greater than had previously been stated.
Now, it’s true to state that Watchtower is not the only organisation contesting the accepted scientific view of the age of this planet, and of the flora and fauna that have existed upon it. Today, many other religions and groups raise similar objections to the findings of these scientists
But Watchtower is notorious for demanding extreme actions from its followers that these other organisations mostly do not, such as the denial of life saving treatment, the forgoing of higher eduction, and the covering up of child abuse. On top of this, it demands that its followers never question any of its teachings on pain of shunning. An organisation demanding that amount of blind loyalty needs to have a flawless track record in the accuracy of its teachings to maintain any credibility at all.
Dinosaurs: What does an expert think?
65978.adapt.768.1I sent the quote from the 1975 Awake and the image from the 1982 Creation book to Prof. Octávio Mateus and asked if he would be willing to comment in reference to this teaching.
He said,
“The image and text attached is misleading because it mixes facts and leads to wrong conclusions. Most, but not all, sedimentary rocks are deposited as sand, silt, mud, gravel or clay transported by water or carbonated precipitated in the ocean. Less common, the sediments are transported by wind. Therefore, most fossils are indeed remains of animals covered by sediments being water-transported by river, lakes, or seas. However, this does not mean there was any flood.
Moreover, in the case of desert animals, fossil-bearing sedimented were wind-transported. In those cases, the death and fossilisation did not involve any water. Stratigraphy shows that fossils are a natural consequence of animals being covered by sediment and petrified during the course of millions of years. We have an enormous amount of evidence showing that earth is billions of years old.”
Watchtower would probably say, “well yes, we now admit the earth is older than 42,000 years and counting. It is just man that has been around for 6,000 years.”
Yet this is not the point.
The point is: When Watchtower finally admitted that the Earth was far older than 42,000 years old, this was not as a result of divine revelation, or some deeper understanding of the scriptural text. It was as a direct result of the scientific evidence being so overwhelming that Watchtower had to back down.
The God of the bible did not enlighten them. The science of the world proved them wrong.
That should tell you something.
susannah-signature
Links
Live Science.com article on Professor Octávio Mateus and his team uncovering the remains of Metoposaurus algarvensis.
Dinosaurs – What do Jehovah’s Witnesses believe?
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Alexandria R says:
February 6, 2016 at 7:29 pm
I forgot to add, according to BBC news Grooved timbers preserved by the saltwater are thought to be the remains of 8,000-year-old log boats, and point to the site once being a sizable boat-building yard, says Garry Momber, of the Hampshire and Wight Trust for Maritime Archaeology. Anyone standing there when the water came would have been torn apart by the force of the water. It’s an interesting thought the story of the flood may have started that way.
Reply
Winston Smith says:
February 7, 2016 at 6:59 am
I don’t want to open up a big debate here, as this is certainly not the forum for it. But I just want to say that i think most hardcore creationists have never studied the evolutionary theory with an open mind. As a JW, I certainly did not do so. They often simply pick and choose portions of scientific discovery to try to support a literal biblical creationist theory and ignore the discoveries that negate such an outlook. Such was the lessons learned from the JW Creation book.
Once I was free of the JW mental shackles, my mind was free to give the topic an open hearing. I found that the theory of evolution is a viable, feasible scientific concept that is the best explanation for the paleontological, geological, and archeological evidence that exists. To blindly ignore such evidence, or to pick and choose only certain pieces of it while ignoring others, is to reject reason and logic.
Having my mind free from the JW dogma also allowed me to realize that accepting the scientific evidence for evolution did not negate beief in a creator. Rather, it could even be used to reinforce such belief. As one commenter mentioned, the factors on this planet that make life possible seem to indicate a divine purpose. Evolution could simply be the method God used. And why ignore the beauty of God’s work through evolution simply because of some preconceived notions. There are, in fact, many hardcore evolutionary biologists who are also devout Christians.
I highly recommend this book on the subject:
“Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why It Matters” http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-What-Fossils-Say-Matters/dp/0231139624
That’s my two cents (sense). Feel free to reply, but I will not engage in an evolution vs creation debate. This is not the forum for it.
WS
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Winston Churchill says:
February 7, 2016 at 8:41 am
Evolution is obviously true. Why do I say this?? Well would Jehovah create anything so ghastly & ugly as Stephen Letts?? Mr Letts I believe has Evolved from a Slimey Snake! His eyes are snakelike & skin reptilian … Case closed ? Who needs more proof for Evolution than that !
Reply
Twmack says:
February 7, 2016 at 7:41 am
The odds of everything being right for life here
are indeed astronomical, but so is winning the lottery.
English lottery 45,000,000 to 1. But someone does
eventually win it.
There’s billions of star systems out there with planets,
and while most of them don’t have the right combination
it looks like we’ve won the jackpot.
Enjoy your luck. Don’t waste it, waiting for another pot
of gold at the end of the rainbow.
Reply
Phil says:
February 7, 2016 at 5:25 pm
Agree totally. Don’t get trapped by the WTBS false probability statistics. The Universe has billions of galaxies in it, each with billions of stars and therefore billions upon billions of planets. Statistically there must be many planets just like earth. Earth is not that special. And don’t get me started on the multiverse hypothesis 😀
Reply
Wip it says:
February 7, 2016 at 6:26 pm
We are all driven by the “Why question, why am i here, what is the purpose & so on, & i guess in the early days the JW do answer those questions quite well, i do believe we were made by a higher source, not sure if i actually believe that to be a God, but yes something put us here.
Dinosaurs are real & were here millions of years ago, the JW will tell you not to watch those evolution shows, because it will poison you.Its interesting regarding the view point of the JW against TV, News etc, they believe anything said about other religions, but anything said about JW is a lie
Reply
Doc Obvious says:
February 7, 2016 at 8:22 pm
When I was a sophomore in biology class, I tried to place the creation book with my teachers and they refused the book in its entirety. I realize now that the creation book misquoted several scientists. The book was not a good resource at all. I feel sorry that I tried to place a book that had no real foundation.
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Winston Smith says:
February 7, 2016 at 9:10 pm
I wrote a term paper in high school using the creation book as a primary source. Looking back, I am embarrassed to have done so.
WS
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cult three years ago for good. My only regret is that I had not left the Watchtower Cult earlier! On Easter Sunday this year, I was baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and received into Eastern Orthodox Church, apostolic Church that preserved the Faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
Cedar, you have my blessings of your work on this site that
will yet help millions of JWs to see the truth of so-called ‘Truth’.
Reply
Fred says:
November 2, 2013 at 12:09 pm
Forget taking your numbers from a 1974 yearbook if you question the amount of those killed, interned, etc get the numbers from the Holocaust museum. You forgot to mention the ‘JEWS’ were and its quoted several times in the Watchtower publications as it is related in the bible, “ONCE GOD’S CHOSEN PEOPLE” but they did not remain that because of their actions. Your quotes from WT publications are based on the latter that they fell out of favour in God’s eyes. They therefor were NOT written in an anti-Semitic nature. Many Jews have become JW’s over the years are they lesser beings because they were of Jewish blood?…ABSOLUTELY NOT! All races are equal so this video in my opinion is twisted in its presentation. Not to mention the ridiculous claim of Rutherford’s so called love letter to Adolf Hitler. No blinders on here, I have checked the facts. Sorry but this video paints an untruthful twist of events and statements about the WT as regards the comments on the Nazi’s and Jews.
Reply
Palma says:
February 28, 2014 at 3:48 am
Hi everybody! Hi cedars!
I found this article about a discovery in egypt that brings light to the origin of story of joseph in the bible.
What do you think?http://www.davidovits.info/the-lost-fresco-and-the-bible-my-new-book-in-french/
Reply
Idris says:
March 27, 2014 at 8:12 am
Thank you for this page, it has been a great help to me, as I seek the truth of the word of God, however I noticed in the video ‘Does the Bible speak of ‘Paradise Earth’ the speaker quotes Luke 21v43 twice, regarding Jesus word on the cross, there should be a correction note as the verse he mentions is in Luke 23 v 43.
Keep up the good work
Reply
Julia Orwell says:
July 17, 2014 at 3:47 am
Been to internationals before and this elaborate souvenir thing is entirely new. The last one I went to in 2009, the last ones they had, had nothing like this so it’s not a matter of you having not noticed it in the past, it’s a matter of it being a new phenomenon.
I theorize that the wt motives for this involve keeping the masses busy and therefore obedient. Jws would volunteer to do this because there are no other legitimate outlets for creative expression. Armageddon being near has nothing to do with it: it’s about keeping the sheeple busy and happy. Making stupid trinkets is also a team building activity as it involves jws working together, thus reinforcing the herd mentality jws have.
Reply
frankie fernandez says:
February 27, 2015 at 4:44 pm
dear friends I was baptized in 1974. Thank God I am no longer a member of the WT. Free at last and oh what a relief it is. A member of my former congregation who I considerd my best friend molested a minor. There was a big argument amognst the elders on the judicial committee. One elder who was a maverick, wanted to notify the police. But, instead they followed the instuctions of the society. They kept this crime against the child, hush hush. So as not to tarnish the name of Jehovah. But in reality it was a coverup to protect the wt’s reputation. Meanwhile this poor child that was raped has to carry the heavy burden of a victim for the rest of thier lives without compensation and without justice. While the abuser has remaind a member in good standing. The congregation he is attending now has not been notified that he is a sexual preditor.
Reply
Holy Connoli says:
November 17, 2015 at 1:14 am
Frankie.If I were you I would turn him into the police now even though it may have been several years ago he committed this crime. Many sexual predators get turned in years later after the crime is reveled. At the very least he will be investigated and his Name will be mud for being a creep.
He deserves it and so does the WT for its NON protection of the flock and not caring for the victim but only their phony reputation.
Reply
Kirtley W. Burggraf says:
March 11, 2015 at 11:16 am
Tell me, since governing body members are elected (replacing someone who dies) at what point do do they become “divinely inspired” or “spirit guided”? Were they always thus in the lower ranks or does this just “happen” the moment that they are appointed? What’s Watchtower’s take on this?
Reply
Alone in MD says:
March 31, 2015 at 6:00 pm
Regards your video on the Memorial Service. I am one of those “non believers” married to a baptized witness. I go to just keep the peace but I’ve made it known that I consider this service one of the worst religious ceremonies that I have ever been to. “Anointed What”. Also it was announced at last years meeting that “this may be the last memorial service”. They are at it again. Thanks for the great videos.
Reply
frankie fernandez says:
May 10, 2015 at 9:50 pm
IF CHRIST WAS ENTHRONGED IN 1914, WHY ARE THE WITNESES STILL CELEBRATING THE MEMORIAL? CHRIST SAID THAT AFTER HIS ARRIVAL NO ONE WAS TO CELEBRATE THE MEMORIAL .ALSO HE SAID THAT THE DAY OF HIS PRESENSE, IT WILL BE LIKE LIGHTNING FROM ONE POINT OF THE EARTH TO ANOTHER. LIGHTNING TRAVELS AT THE SPEED OF 3500 MILES PER SECOUND. SO IT WILL TRAVEL AROUND THE GLOBE IN LESS THAN A MINUTE. HE ALSO SAID THAT ALL EYES WILL SEE HIM. NOT LIKE THE WTS THAT SAYS WE ARE IN HIS INVISIBLE PRESENSE.
Reply
pj wilcox says:
July 31, 2015 at 3:21 am
I watched the latest video of the inept elder being questioned by the commission. Who prepared this man for testimony? You all are aware of the dentist who shot Cecil the lion in Kenya? Well his life is over. He is in hiding. What he did ,did not break laws in Kenya and his is in a world of trouble with public sentiment. But this elder being questioned is far worse. He covered deeds that drove people to think of killing themselves. Should he not go into hiding? Is his life over? Has he know conscience? Emotion, caring? You know the answer. Bet ya, damage control is working overtime on this.
Reply
Adrian says:
September 8, 2015 at 3:32 am
I think the Royal Commission videos demonstrate that fragility of the governance within the WT society. Yes, it’s an Australia branch issue but cross examination only points to the seat of control on which the governing body members sit. Everything starts and stops with the governing body, they set the policy but where are they? Sitting comfortably in NY watching from a distance ready to abdicate any responsibility whatsoever. A governing body governs and leads but I see no leadership I see the followers talking and being bashed around the head with questions, all too easy for the legal team.
However, it might just be me but does anyone else not see the lawyer’s gap in knowledge regarding the fundamental rationale for the WT society policies, they fall back in their comfort zone knowing that they can say ‘well we don’t have the authority to go beyond the bible.’
It’s this gap in knowledge of the legal representatives which the WT society exploit. I mean nobody is going to ask ‘ where actually did this translation come from anyway?’ What were the academic qualifications of the translators? Is there a possibility that you have interpreted things wrongly or even worse, translated things incorrectly? If there’s a possibility that your interpretation on how to deal with modern day child abuse cases in congregations may be flawed, then are you in agreement that your policies could result in lasting harm to victims of abuse? In my view that translation is the ‘elephant in the room’ every scholar knows it’s perverse but no one is holding this cult to account. So easy to say it’s all in the bible but should they really be saying it’s all in the NWT instead?
The WT society in the videos almost give of an innocence as if to say, ‘ but that’s what we understand from the scriptures’, and I think it works in their favor, but a savvy legal representative would do well to tease out the basis for the rendering of certain verses on which doctrine, policy and organisational decisions are based. So far the WT Society appears to be one step ahead because their authority is not a person but a book, which they are ‘only trying to understand and live by’. Expose the origin of the NWT and the basis for so many ridiculous uncaring decisions is called into question.
Reply
Rick Viger says:
November 10, 2015 at 3:26 pm
Thanks John for all you do with your videos.
I’m an ex JW for 40 years now. I hope your videos reach some witnesses and make them think. For all of you that have left Watchtower remember you made the right decision.
Reply
S.T. says:
November 24, 2015 at 9:48 pm
I was wondering if anyone has heard that Jehovah’s witnesses are telling there congregations that the end of this system could have only hours left? My sister who is a Jehovah’s Witness said they are preaching this at the congregations. Has anyone else heard this?
Reply
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Lloyd Evans @cedarsjwsurvey
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