Monday, February 22, 2016
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Posted: 07 November 2015 08:51 AM [ Ignore ]
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josephs myth
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http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/41796/#619032
I didn't realize things had gotten started so fast!
I'll bring the silverware to the party.
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Posted: 07 November 2015 03:40 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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josephs myth
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When in good conscious you just simply can't be part of something anymore.
http://www.today.com/parents/former-teacher-writes-viral-resignation-letter-encourages-parent-involvement-t54031
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Posted: 10 November 2015 01:03 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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josephs myth
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A possible mass resignation is again in the news.
http://www.kivitv.com/news/lds-members-leaving-the-religion-over-leaked-policy
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Posted: 10 November 2015 01:29 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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thewriterwithin
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Hey -- I resigned years ago, and I will be going just to show support for every dear GLBT person in my family and my life.
I also think a letter is in order. The more of that stuff they have to wade through, the better.
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A man who does not think for himself does not think at all.Oscar Wilde
Posted: 10 November 2015 01:35 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Good for you, Bonnie. If I lived in Utah, I'd be inclined to do the same. Even though I've been out forever now, this has hit me kind of hard. It makes me want to resign from even being a former mormon. (Still haven't figured out how that would work, though)
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
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Posted: 10 November 2015 05:40 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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josephs myth
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LDS Facebook Resignation, now on the title front page of good Google, after one easy search inquiry.
"LDS Church Mass Resignations is the page reference on Facebook
http://www.facebook.com/events/326930167477474/
November 14th City Creek Park, Salt Lake City, UT 84103
For anyone ready to resign from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and those who wish to support them.
**Not for those wishing to disrespect or dismiss the feelings of those wishing to participate..that said I will remove any thread that is dissmissive or rude
For those not local: Please feel free to participate by sending in your letter the day we submit ours. You will be with us in spirit as we will be with you.
OK SO here's the plan so far (will be updated periodically):
1`) Walk/ March together around Temple square and deposit our letters in a mail box near the church office. e bring just a personal letter to the church about why you resigned. All those simply in support are of course welcome too. We will listen to 4-5 tesimonials/ speakers at the park while people who need to get their letters together.
2) Walk/ March together around Temple square and deposit our letters in a mail box near the church office. (We have found a mail box for this..yay)
On Site Resources: Two notary publics have volunteers to be present at the event to notarize your letters. Thank you Bryan and Lindsey.
Extra letter templates and envelopes for those that forget to bring theirs but with to participate (this will be in limited supply so please plan to bring your own).
A lawyer on site and affiliated with the event will be offering advice to make sure our resignations are processed immediately and without ward leader intervention."
TBD: Bubbles or other fun thing for kids?
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
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Posted: 11 November 2015 02:24 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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thewriterwithin
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Thanks for the posts, josephs myth.
If you have been on the fence, I think this is a great time to make your move. It makes a statement, you have endless support, there is even a lawyer to make sure your resignation is hassle-free.
I resigned years ago -- DECADES -- but I am writing a letter in protest and in support of my GLBT friends and family. I will also go to the rally to be a warm body and make the demonstration more impressive.
This might be a repeat of a link jm has already posted, but you can find out everything here you need to resign, including how to have the help of an attorney, even if you are far from Salt Lake.
By the way, when I resigned decades ago, I got the good ol' suddenly they needed to drop by my house (after ignoring me for decades), "We can't figure out where your records are" runaround. Although I tempted to mentions "bombs" in my next letter, instead I sanely just c.c. the American Civil Liberties Union. Instant, polite, professional service. Although they have just gotten better and better at this, it CAN make a difference to have a lawyer standing behind you.
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Posted: 11 November 2015 02:25 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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thewriterwithin
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Ooops. Typically forgot link --
https://www.facebook.com/events/326930167477474/permalink/327829664054191/
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Posted: 12 November 2015 10:38 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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josephs myth
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thewriterwithin:
Ooops. Typically forgot link --
https://www.facebook.com/events/326930167477474/permalink/327829664054191/
I've always said it's the youth changing Mormonism, never saw this angle coming tho...
http://www.advocate.com/religion/2015/11/11/watch-thousands-mormons-plan-abandon-faith-weekend
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
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Posted: 12 November 2015 06:56 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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http://news.yahoo.com/mormon-lgbt-policy-change-triggers-widespread-backlash-185024466.html
And if they change the policy, it shows they are just a bunch of mean old men who are behind a curtain pulling levers and making big mistakes. Who would want to stay in anyway? I am thinking this will be a lot of TBMs tickets to thinking for themselves.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 13 November 2015 04:37 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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josephs myth
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Strong Free & Thankful:
http://news.yahoo.com/mormon-lgbt-policy-change-triggers-widespread-backlash-185024466.html
And if they change the policy, it shows they are just a bunch of mean old men who are behind a curtain pulling levers and making big mistakes. Who would want to stay in anyway? I am thinking this will be a lot of TBMs tickets to thinking for themselves.
If it's only a thousand or so it carries with it the "unthinkable" display that it really is okay, leaving LDS inc is doable. It's a concept completely foreign to most Mormons.
I hope LDS kids are watching.
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
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Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
Posted: 13 November 2015 06:03 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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MishMagnet
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I regret that I have but one membership to give up for the LBGT community.
I sent my resignation in shortly after Prop 8 passed.
It would really be something if 1200 people show up tomorrow. It's hard to know with FB how much is fluffed up interest and how much are those really ready to go through with it.
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Posted: 13 November 2015 06:11 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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josephs myth
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MishMagnet:
I regret that I have but one membership to give up for the LBGT community.
I sent my resignation in shortly after Prop 8 passed.
It would really be something if 1200 people show up tomorrow. It's hard to know with FB how much is fluffed up interest and how much are those really ready to go through with it.
You could get baptized LDS again Y'know.
i'mjustsaying...
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
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Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
Posted: 13 November 2015 08:58 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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Rmyth
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Just FYI. I think this might explain TSCC's attitude towards the mass resignation.
http://www.millennialstar.org/about-that-claim-of-mass-resignations-from-the-lds-church/
Posted: 13 November 2015 10:29 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
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thewriterwithin
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MishMagnet:
I regret that I have but one membership to give up for the LBGT community.
I sent my resignation in shortly after Prop 8 passed.
It would really be something if 1200 people show up tomorrow. It's hard to know with FB how much is fluffed up interest and how much are those really ready to go through with it.
I told my Lesbian niece's wife something similar -- I regret I have but one membership to give up for my country.
I resigned a long time ago -- for myself -- because of their positions on women's issues, but if I hadn't I would resign now in support of her.
I will be there tomorrow to turn in a notarized protest letter. In any case, it should be interesting.
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A man who does not think for himself does not think at all.Oscar Wilde
Posted: 15 November 2015 12:12 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
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josephs myth
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Six formerly Mormon Lawyers on hand.
http://www.news3lv.com/content/news/story/Group-holds-mass-resignation-from-LDS-church-in/1Izdgu_O4E6h5U59hVOnKQ.cspx
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_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
Posted: 30 November 2015 06:18 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
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josephs myth
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Interesting! And yet 'totally conservative', SLC Utah, just elected a brand new mayor. And shhhhh... she's very openly gay.
http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/3224417-155/op-ed-lds-policy-change-is-part
Who or what is this article defending?
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
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2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
Financial Report for 2010 to Date
Financial Report for 2009
Twin Falls Newspaper Article
Twin Falls Billboard
Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
[Southern Utah Pos...]
SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
[Southern Utah Pos...]
New Year's Eve Party
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (1/3)
[San Francisco Bay...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (12/6)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Southern Utah Post Mormon Association to meet December 6th at the Red Lion in St. George
[Southern Utah Pos...]
Christmas Party ~ Diamond Head Area
[Oahu Post Mormon ...]
Third Thirsty Thursday @ Freemont Street 11/19/15
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...]
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (11/1)
[San Francisco Bay...]
Southern Utah Postmormon Association to meet November 1st at the Red Lion in St. George
[Southern Utah Pos...]
NEW GROUP MEETING SCHEDULE!
[San Diego Post-Mo...]
Book of Mormon Tories
by Chris Sexton
Why I am a Better Mother
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Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
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Resignation Letter to My Family
sam2
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Daughter no longer believes!
Posted: 30 November 2015 07:53 AM [ Ignore ]
moronie-balonie
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I just wanted to report how happy my Thanksgiving was, and to let you all know that there is hope for our TBM loved ones.
As some of you may recall, I overwhelmed my then 15 year old daughter about what I had found out about the church. She had a knee-jerk reaction and suddenly was very TBM, and some hurtful things were said, and for a couple of years she would barely talk to DH or me.
This Thanksgiving, while she was home from college, she told us that she had done some research, and now agrees with us. She also went on to say that out of her group of LDS friends, 4 of them also don't believe it. She has one friend who was kicked out of his house because he told his parents about his non-belief. She was asking us if we were going to resign, and we told her why we didn't feel like we could right now, but that we really wanted to. We also let her know that she could do what she wanted. She didn't say, but I got the impression that it has been a topic of conversation with her friends, and that she personally was going to do it.
I think that the church is in some serious trouble. People are going to start leaving and it will be like an avalanche.
I never thought this would happen because she was soooooo TBM, so take heart everyone! Hank, how are things with your son? I know you have been in the same boat as us.
Posted: 30 November 2015 08:57 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
Hank
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That's great! Congrats! I'm sure it was very exciting to hear, and a relief.
My 15 year old has taken the liberty to stay home on Sundays fairly often the past couple of months, but otherwise he says he believes it all and that he finds it hurtfull when I make comments that can be taken as anti-church (or simply factual). I suggested that he do some research, but nothing yet. And the YM program has stepped up their efforts in keeping him involved...a preventive measure, I guess. At least your post gives me some hope. Thanks for asking.
Posted: 30 November 2015 09:18 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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I'm so happy for you
you're daughter is now headed for a much better life
all options are now open too her
you may want to discuss how this could affect her choice of occupation....
Posted: 30 November 2015 10:58 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Celestial Wedgie
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Moronie, congratulations! This sort of thing lightens my heart. It's not like life will suddenly be problem-free, but there's something very real to celebrate when we take away a known source of problem genesis. I just love this sort of story.
And Hank, give it time. There's no need to push or cajole: let maturation, the inherently boring nature of Mormon religious practice, and loving parents be the healing ointment.
Posted: 30 November 2015 11:17 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Oh MB--this makes my heart sing for you!!!
What a sigh of relief when a child you love so much is free from a cult! As you say happened with her knee jerk reaction--and for Hank as well--I saw this happen with one of my children. Sometimes it is almost like they are two people inside. They kind of know but cannot seem to admit out loud that it is not truth. This adult child never goes to church anymore and drinks coffee, wine. You do not see any signs of TBMism but when a family member post anything LDS on FB--it is like, like like! I have to take a deep breath. All in all--we have truth and lots of proof on our side so for most of our kids--just a matter of time. I agree--the dirty fifteen and their castles of lies are in big trouble.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 30 November 2015 11:50 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Congratulations. It's always nice to hear about the healing of rifts within a family!
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Posted: 30 November 2015 11:52 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
finex
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Congrats! Make sure you celebrate the event properly. :)
Posted: 01 December 2015 12:42 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Congradulations OP, and good luck Hank!
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Eric Reeves on “the policy”
Posted: 23 November 2015 11:30 AM [ Ignore ]
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I had heard something about this a few days ago (maybe even read it here?), but just happened to land on this interview on Youtube while looking for something else. This is Eric Reeves speaking about the new children-of-same-sex-parents policy. Eric is the son of a counselor in the Relief Society general presidency. I have heard and read lots of articles and interviews on this topic but none as compelling as this.
It's a bit long (90 minutes), but well worth the listen. If you're strapped for time, go to approx. 52 minute mark and listen to the end. Amazing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR_1DlWAwfo
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Posted: 23 November 2015 12:28 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Thanks for this, I'll listen to it tonight, then return and report.
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Posted: 24 November 2015 12:28 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Watched this yesterday. It was time well spent. I liked the civil tone Mr. Reeves used. He was articulate and humble. I was surprised at his reason for leaving the church, but the analogy he gave about crossing a bridge really hit home. It was also interesting that he mada a veiled reference to some "questioning" within his own family.
It must have been difficult for him to do this, given his parents' status within the church, but I think he handled it well. Classy all the way.
I recommend this to anyone and everyone. Give it a look.
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Posted: 25 November 2015 01:11 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Loved it, well most of it. The first 45 minutes was fluff. The last four minutes was very powerful. He's right, the church, because of revelation and mere Christian actions, should have been leading and embracing the civil rights movement not stoping its progress.
He made another veiled reference to either some top brass are gay or there is dissention at the top for this policy. Either way, as a fallout of this terrible, hateful policy shift, I hope the leaders will be more kind to their members.
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Posted: 25 November 2015 02:07 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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There has been a great deal of speculation that Sheri Dew is gay, and that Russel Nelson's second wife used to live with Sheri - in fact, if I recall correctly she co-owned a home with Sheri. I have read that there is dissent in the ranks, almost to a 50 - 50 split on LGBT issues, but that was a few years back. Right now I guess the balance of power may have shifted with 3 new apostles, so who knows.
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Posted: 25 November 2015 06:47 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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dave (e_nomo)
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I found Eric's comparison of this issue with the church's racism problems so interesting.
[summarizing and paraphrasing here....]
As bad as the racist doctrines and policies were, the church gradually found a way out. They went from BY's disgusting hate sermons, to a sort of quiet priesthood/temple ban, to finally a full lifting of the ban. As society progressed, the church did too - way behind, but still moved forward.
In the case of LGBTs, however, rather than moving forward, they chose this moment in time to make things more harsh. It's comparable, Eric says, to having instituted the black priesthood ban *after* the civil rights act was passed. The church's racist history is embarrassing enough as it is, but imagine if they had done that. Imagine if in response to the civil rights act, they had doubled down and *started* a priesthood ban.
That is what they're doing now after the (US) legalization of same-sex marriage. Some day, they will want to find a way out, but this policy is going to make it very difficult.
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Mormons And FLDS Slowly Seeing Change
Posted: 27 November 2015 12:58 AM [ Ignore ]
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I know, I know, not fast enough.
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Porn, Good or Bad?
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The published journals of a gay apostate Mormon missionary
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Scapegoating - A Different Perspective on Current Mormon Gay Bashing???
Posted: 18 November 2015 01:31 PM [ Ignore ]
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I, like many here, observe the recent decision by Mormon leaderhip to treat same sex marriage as apostacy as disgusting, inhumane and even tactically ill-considered.
But as I listened to this recent podcast, which touches on the extent to which human beings are prone to scapegoating, I found myself wondering if this is what is contributing to developments within Mormonism.
There certainly are a diverse range of forces running strongly recently within Mormonism. Over relatively recent years they have seen:
Their presidential candidate soundly passed over, after huge and excited anticipation
Their leadership's use of Prop 8 to attack same sex marriage come undone in a very public way
The Internet has been increasingly used to effectively expose Church history in a most embarrasing way, which in turn has seen major defections of brighter members
The impact of these developments, and more, has had a profoundly unsettling effect on leadership and members alike. And when they work from a belief that they are God's Chosen, such a series of setbacks cannot help but generate profound disquiet and self-doubt, which accumulate on the edge of consciousness, like pressure in a pressure vessel.
The scapegoat model theorises that one of the ways human beings react to such pressure is to turn on soneone, or a group, to vent their accumlated energies for cathartic release. Religious communities are particularly, though not exclusively well suited to the unleashing of these forces, because of their ongoing harnessing of shame.
This podcast comes after the recent death of the philosopher Rene Girrard.
It will also be available from the iStore.
Daryk
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Posted: 19 November 2015 10:06 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Daryl, that makes good sense to me. The church has taken several big hits in the last few years and the tide seems to be turning against it. It makes sense that the members and leaders might want someone to blame.
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The published journals of a gay apostate Mormon missionary
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Morg and Utah politics
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St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward - Meetup - Sunday, February 21st, 10:00am at Harmons (Draper, UT) - ***New photo at bottom of thread***
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Do You Know Anyone Who Is Developing A Death Wish Because The Next Life Is So Wonderful?
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Musings on the Holy Ghost
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What's in a Name?
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A New Reformation
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"It's not Stockholm Syndrome, I stay because The Spirit™ told me to!"
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Conspiracy Theories - Why Mormons Love Them So?
by Celestial Wedgie
G.A. accused of sexual assault (link)
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Are you in a codependent relationship?
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A blast from the "intellectual" past
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Financial Report for 2011 to Date
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Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
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Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
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Suffer the Children
Posted: 17 November 2015 12:45 AM [ Ignore ]
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https://youtu.be/g78iCG7Ec1Q
Posted: 17 November 2015 03:44 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Well done! That says it all. Good job to whoever put that together.
Posted: 17 November 2015 05:07 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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SuziQ:
Well done! That says it all. Good job to whoever put that together.
Thank you.
Posted: 18 November 2015 08:10 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/3187665-155/op-ed-why-i-spent-my-last
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SSA New BYUi Change Program
Posted: 16 November 2015 09:42 AM [ Ignore ]
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Are you suffering form at little SSA (Same Sex Attraction), not living according to the Gospel and the Lords plan for salvation? Step right up, lend an ear.. BYU is offering a program to help you change, experts will be on hand to help you with a customized plan to rid you of those sinful attractions...
http://imgur.com/a/mD47E
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Posted: 16 November 2015 09:51 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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My first thought was: I will be arriving in SE Idaho on the 21st, maybe I should stand on the sidewalk with a sign in protest. my second thought was: Rexburg weather in November---am I crazy?
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Posted: 16 November 2015 09:56 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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The return of Dr. Shock'Em until they scream Dear God I've changed....
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Posted: 16 November 2015 11:33 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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This makes me sick! What's up with this guy? I looked at his website - Michael Williams Counseling.com.
I thought the church had given up the idea of telling SSA members to marry someone of the opposite sex. Here is this guy telling people he can cure them. Disgusting!
Posted: 16 November 2015 12:32 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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According to the Daily Beast because of bad publicity it was cancelled.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/11/16/byu-cancels-lgbt-conversion-therapy-event.html
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Posted: 16 November 2015 01:19 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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SuziQ:
This makes me sick! What's up with this guy? I looked at his website - Michael Williams Counseling.com.
I thought the church had given up the idea of telling SSA members to marry someone of the opposite sex. Here is this guy telling people he can cure them. Disgusting!
I also went onto his website. I had to take a double take, is he a phyciotherapist or a political activist? His Blog post made me wonder if this guy should be practicing phyciotherapy or maybe he would be better suited for Mike Huckabee's politcal campaign.
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Mickelsen's "Dirty Linen"
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Not Angry, A little confused, and a lot scared
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Porn, Good or Bad?
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Ghawd is anti-immigration?
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The published journals of a gay apostate Mormon missionary
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Morg and Utah politics
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Do You Know Anyone Who Is Developing A Death Wish Because The Next Life Is So Wonderful?
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What's in a Name?
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A New Reformation
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"It's not Stockholm Syndrome, I stay because The Spirit™ told me to!"
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G.A. accused of sexual assault (link)
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Are you in a codependent relationship?
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"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah
Financial Report for 2011 to Date
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Financial Report for 2009
Twin Falls Newspaper Article
Twin Falls Billboard
Financial Report for 2009 to Date
The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]
Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]
Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]
Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
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Why I am a Better Mother
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Church Authorities, Postmormons Find Common Ground
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Resignation Letter to My Family
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It’s not really about the children . . . .
Posted: 10 November 2015 05:57 AM [ Ignore ]
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It's about keeping ward members from seeing that the same sex couples in their neighborhood are not scary and depraved people, but are regular families like their own. The church really doesn't want these couples showing up at church for ordinances like baby blessings, baptisms, prieshood ordinances, etc, Because in TSCC, how things look on the outside trumps everything, and they must keep the general membership protected from reality. It warms my heart to watch them scramble and squirm trying to explain this away.
Posted: 10 November 2015 07:07 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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SuziQ:
It's about keeping ward members from seeing that the same sex couples in their neighborhood are not scary and depraved people, but are regular families like their own. The church really doesn't want these couples showing up at church for ordinances like baby blessings, baptisms, prieshood ordinances, etc, Because in TSCC, how things look on the outside trumps everything, and they must keep the general membership protected from reality. It warms my heart to watch them scramble and squirm trying to explain this away.
SuziQ,
I agree with you. As harsh as it may sound, the Mormon leadership view children of same sex couples as cancers.
When I was a child, my grandfather came to visit. He smoked, but always outside of the house. One day while smoking a cigerette, the mother of one of my friends drove by and saw my grandfather smoking. The next time I went down the street to play with my friend, he informed me that he was no longer allowed to be my friend. The reason, he explained, was that my grandfather smokes. From then after, my family was ostracized by his family.
My point in this story, is that tbms now have license to ostracize these children. If a person or group of people can be "dehumanized" it is so much easier to act inhumanly and commitee atrocities.
In my mind I can hear someone say while bearing a testimony: "I had a feeling that my child should not play with this other child, I found out later that the childs parents are a same sex couple---I am so grateful for the promtings of the spirit..."---Yes I have heard more bizzare from the pulpit.
I think one of the biggest threats to the Mormon Church is when member experiences do not match the church's narrative. In so many cases the crack is irrepairable. The Church cannot have the little children experiencing normality with children of same sex couples---it would destroy the credability of the church narrative. It is just easier to dehumanize and imply that these children are off limits.
I think this situation is even worse---A church that teaches the primary children that they can become gods, beginning with baptism---have just implied that not even god wants you if you happen to have same sex parents.
It makes my blood boil so much, that I have been struggling to make a decision and take a stand as follows:
I have two sons that still live at home. The younger is 13 and the other is 17. I want to tell the bishop that until the church reverses this policy that neither is allowed to participate in priesthood rites (sacrament, fast offerings, home teaching). I want to prohibite my 13 year old from further priesthood advancement.
I have a son on a mission---I want to recall him, but he is over 18 so he is a legal adult---but I control the 'purse strings'---I am tempted to tell the bishop that, no further missionary contributions will be made in his behalf, until the Church reverses this policy.
I think that I am an outlier in my situation---However wouldn't it be cool if enough members took a stand and told the church that they will not contribute another dime, to the church, until this policy is reversed. Wishful Thinking
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Posted: 10 November 2015 07:56 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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At the root of it all IMO is the dehumanizing of a particular section of people.
I grew up in the church in the 1950's and have watched it shift and change and revise the hell out of itself.
We were at BYU during the ERA movement....what a super brainwashing job was done on us all there.
We were at BYU when the revelation about Blacks and the Priesthood was announced. Hooray it was a great day!!! We were now allowed to stop being giant butt holes.
We are exmo's (thanks goodness) for this latest morph down this crazy train hate ride speeding down the tracks.
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Posted: 10 November 2015 08:43 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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SuziQ:
It's about keeping ward members from seeing that the same sex couples in their neighborhood are not scary and depraved people, but are regular families like their own. The church really doesn't want these couples showing up at church for ordinances like baby blessings, baptisms, prieshood ordinances, etc, Because in TSCC, how things look on the outside trumps everything, and they must keep the general membership protected from reality. It warms my heart to watch them scramble and squirm trying to explain this away.
I agree with this. I also agree with WinstonSmith and others above. What a heartless thing to do to children! They do not want SS couples sitting in sacrament meeting--holding hands. I also wonder if they did not receive flack from the rank and file over Oaks saying the the deputy clerk was wrong to not issue the marriage license. Maybe they had to decide whether to cater to the tithe payers or the rest of the world. A bird in hand is worth a lot of birds in the bush. While many members are upset and see the injustice, many TBMs--including my family--are happy about this "righteous" stand taken by the church. It is exactly what they expect. They feel the church is protecting their children from gays. I think the church just shot themselves in the foot again and made one more step toward becoming more FLDS--like. What I know is that those children from whom baptism is being withheld are very lucky kids!
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 10 November 2015 01:16 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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At least two of my nieces have expressed horror, outrage, hurt and profound sadness over this "policy". Others in my family are too timid to weigh in on this.
There is one thing I can't get out of my head, something I learned as a child. It's found in Mark 10:14
Suffer the little chidren to come unto me, and forbid them not...
I checked the mormon bible, there are no annotations to the JST. Nice going, mormon church. There is absolutely no defending this position. FORBID THEM NOT, it says so in that same bible you claim to uphold. Assholes...
This f#cking policy is just that -- a policy. It is not doctrinal. It's a policy, just like the church's old policy on blacks and the priesthood.
I saw in my facebook feed a petitiion on change.org for the NCAA to boycott all BYU sports based on this policy. I hope it succeeds.
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Posted: 10 November 2015 01:35 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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At least two of my nieces have expressed horror, outrage, hurt and profound sadness over this "policy". Others in my family are too timid to weigh in on this.
There is one thing I can't get out of my head, something I learned as a child. It's found in Mark 10:14
Suffer the little chidren to come unto me, and forbid them not...
I checked the mormon bible, there are no annotations to the JST. Nice going, mormon church. There is absolutely no defending this position. FORBID THEM NOT, it says so in that same bible you claim to uphold. Assholes...
This f#cking policy is just that -- a policy. It is not doctrinal. It's a policy, just like the church's old policy on blacks and the priesthood.
I saw in my facebook feed a petitiion on change.org for the NCAA to boycott all BYU sports based on this policy. I hope it succeeds.
Imma look for that.
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A man who does not think for himself does not think at all.Oscar Wilde
Posted: 15 November 2015 02:02 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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xtremewayz
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and yet at 8 when children are being baptized....they are accountable. But unable to resign until they are 18. That gives them a decade to brainwash young minds.
Their paranoia resides in the fact that if children of a non heterosexual union join the church, they will stand as a diluting agent to the church's position on same sex unions/life. In a decade the church would be forced to change their policy if they recognized these unions and families as legitimate.
Posted: 15 November 2015 11:12 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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tab
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I wonder if they could explain how the Pope got it all wrong:
"ROME – In words that may be interpreted to rebut Catholic priests who refuse to baptize children of same-sex couples, Pope Francis has said that priests should not refuse baptism to anyone who asks for the sacrament.
Speaking in a homily Sunday for the ordination of 19 new priests for the diocese of Rome, Francis told the new ministers: "With baptism, you unite the new faithful to the People of God. It is never necessary to refuse baptism to someone who asks for it!"- National Catholic Register
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“If they can get you to believe in absurdity, then they can get you to commit atrocity.” -Voltaire
Posted: 15 November 2015 11:52 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
Free2Live
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I recall in years past a bank called First Security made corporate decisions to start charging fees on small accounts. This in effect drove many people out into other financial institutions like credit unions. Similarly the mormon cult made a corporate business decision to drive out the accounts they do not want. It is not about the children is a true statement. This religious policy is and was a business decision set in place to produce an outcome the quorum of share holders found to be desireable and deliscious to their shareowner lust. After many years credit unions are now exacting fees on accounts but not nearly as high of a cost. For a corporation that claims to be in the bride elect of jesus to be the savior of all people on planet earth the lds cult just narrowed the niche from all people to yet another market segment.
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.
Posted: 15 November 2015 12:18 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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tab:
I wonder if they could explain how the Pope got it all wrong:
"ROME – In words that may be interpreted to rebut Catholic priests who refuse to baptize children of same-sex couples, Pope Francis has said that priests should not refuse baptism to anyone who asks for the sacrament.
Speaking in a homily Sunday for the ordination of 19 new priests for the diocese of Rome, Francis told the new ministers: "With baptism, you unite the new faithful to the People of God. It is never necessary to refuse baptism to someone who asks for it!"- National Catholic Register
Who would have thought that the church which mormon leaders called the "whore of the earth" was much more about goodness and love than the one that claimed to the the only true church.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that. —BOLD WISH
Posted: 16 November 2015 07:38 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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SFT, what Pope, wouldn't accept a fresh young baptized member, who could eventually grow up being another worker bee for the Vatican? Can you see/visualize a similar recruiting pattern emerging here?
Edited to add that: Our LGBT community is branded/classified/treated as "intrinsically disordered." So the Vatican is behind the times too, with claiming differences due to an intrinsic disorder? You're different so you can't belong either? How shameful. Where is the tolerance and acceptance in that?
Posted: 16 November 2015 10:25 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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dave (e_nomo)
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I just finished listening to "A Thoughtful Faith" podcast featuring a conversation with James Ord about "the policy."
listen here
It's an hour and a half long so I won't try to cover everything, but in a nutshell Mr. Ord thinks the policy stems from legal issues.
Now I've heard a few people saying the church is afraid that they'll be sued and forced to accept same-sex marriages, or even forced to perform them in their temples. I can't imagine how that could be. In the US anyway churches are allowed to teach what they want and exclude whoever they want and call whatever they don't like "sin."
But Mr. Ord's theory is about a different legal issue. He says the church is afraid of "parental alienation" lawsuits. This is where a parent would sue the church claiming that church teachings caused their child to disassociate from that parent. The church is teaching that Dad and Daddy are sinners and BabyB wants nothing to do with Dad because of it. Mr. Ord's idea is that by refusing BabyB a name blessing and baptism, that the church remains a legal stranger to BabyB and can't be held accountable for trouble it causes in the family relationships.
This is an interesting idea. For one, I would never put it past the church to worry more about their legal positions than about their members. Also, it helps explain why, in spite of same-sex having been legal in places like Canada and the Netherlands for a long time, why the new policy is just coming up now. (because these lawsuits would be more likely and more numerous in the US).
However, it leaves unexplained the requirement to "renounce" same-sex marriage at age 18 in order to be baptized. Seems to me the child would be beyond a parental alienation lawsuit by then. So why this added requirement? Which, by the way, I think goes against some recent policy that said you can express support for same-sex marriage and still be a member in good standing. So why this requirement and why the double standard?
I think SuzyQ nailed it in the OP. They can't have kids of gay parents be normal typical members. They can't have living examples of how wrong they are. They don't want to just avoid baptizing; they want to drive them away altogether.
But either way, whether lawsuit avoidance or social pressure avoidance, it's not really about protecting children. It's about protecting the church. That "clarification" that claimed it was about the children was the kind of desperate lie you make up when you're caught doing something wrong. It doesn't help and only makes you look more pitiful.
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Posted: 16 November 2015 10:47 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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Hiker Daddy
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dave (e_nomo):
I just finished listening to "A Thoughtful Faith" podcast featuring a conversation with James Ord about "the policy."
listen here
It's an hour and a half long so I won't try to cover everything, but in a nutshell Mr. Ord thinks the policy stems from legal issues.
Now I've heard a few people saying the church is afraid that they'll be sued and forced to accept same-sex marriages, or even forced to perform them in their temples. I can't imagine how that could be. In the US anyway churches are allowed to teach what they want and exclude whoever they want and call whatever they don't like "sin."
But Mr. Ord's theory is about a different legal issue. He says the church is afraid of "parental alienation" lawsuits. This is where a parent would sue the church claiming that church teachings caused their child to disassociate from that parent. The church is teaching that Dad and Daddy are sinners and BabyB wants nothing to do with Dad because of it. Mr. Ord's idea is that by refusing BabyB a name blessing and baptism, that the church remains a legal stranger to BabyB and can't be held accountable for trouble it causes in the family relationships.
This is an interesting idea. For one, I would never put it past the church to worry more about their legal positions than about their members. Also, it helps explain why, in spite of same-sex having been legal in places like Canada and the Netherlands for a long time, why the new policy is just coming up now. (because these lawsuits would be more likely and more numerous in the US).
However, it leaves unexplained the requirement to "renounce" same-sex marriage at age 18 in order to be baptized. Seems to me the child would be beyond a parental alienation lawsuit by then. So why this added requirement? Which, by the way, I think goes against some recent policy that said you can express support for same-sex marriage and still be a member in good standing. So why this requirement and why the double standard?
I think SuzyQ nailed it in the OP. They can't have kids of gay parents be normal typical members. They can't have living examples of how wrong they are. They don't want to just avoid baptizing; they want to drive them away altogether.
But either way, whether lawsuit avoidance or social pressure avoidance, it's not really about protecting children. It's about protecting the church. That "clarification" that claimed it was about the children was the kind of desperate lie you make up when you're caught doing something wrong. It doesn't help and only makes you look more pitiful.
This makes sense up to a point. Daddy and Daddy could sue if the church alienates their child. What about other sins committed by parents though? Why are daddy and daddy more problematic and pot grower mommy and pot grower daddy that live in a state with legal marijuana? Couldn’t those parents sue the church for teaching their children that their lifestyle is immoral? What about bar tender daddy and bar tender mommy?
I wouldn’t be surprised if the church is thinking about law suits but if so their reasoning falls apart. I suspect there is also an element that the brethren are simply pissed off about losing in court and lashing out.
This policy makes being homosexual the sin of the century. Being gay and being a polygamist are the only sins that ban the children from joining. That said, the kids are better off not in the church provided they don’t get shunned by their Mormon neighbors. Unfortunately, shunning is going to get worse.
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“I can’t go back to yesterday because I was a different person then.” Alice in Wonderland.
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