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2015 Conference
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Financial Report for 2011 to Date

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The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
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Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
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Native American DNA
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2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah




















 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
SF Bay Area Super Bowl Party (Feb 7)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Jan 10th, 2016-Southern Utah PostMormons will present an outstanding lecture combo
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
New Year's Eve Party
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (1/3)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
SF Bay Area Monthly Gathering SUNDAY (12/6)
[San Francisco Bay...] 
Southern Utah Post Mormon Association to meet December 6th at the Red Lion in St. George
[Southern Utah Pos...] 
Christmas Party ~ Diamond Head Area
[Oahu Post Mormon ...] 
Third Thirsty Thursday @ Freemont Street 11/19/15
[Las Vegas Post-Mo...] 
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[San Francisco Bay...] 
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by Chris Sexton 
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INRETROSPECT

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Forum Home  >  Member Forums  >  The Community Forum  >  Thread 
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Porn, Good or Bad?  
Posted: 18 February 2016 01:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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Denker
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I happen to believe there are good sides to porn as well as bad sides.  I'd like to hear from those of you who have viewed or are viewing porn.  I welcome any views or experiences you would be willing to share, especially what factors induced you to view porn in the first place or what keeps your interest in porn alive.  Here is an interesting blog I have discovered on this very topic: http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/good-bad-sides-porn/ 

   


Posted: 18 February 2016 01:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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  What porn teaches
In all seriousness, porn is like pretty much anything else. Overdo it, and it becomes a problem. 
 
My issue with porn is that it gives people unrealistic expectations. This goes not only for hardcore porn, but for Hollywood T&A love scenes as well. If your only experience with sex has been porn (or even Hollywood), you expect it to be earth-shattering, mind-blowingly passionate, life altering or whatever, and once you experience real sex with a partner for the first time, it's often clumsy, sometimes painful, and hardly anything like what is portrayed. Like most other things, it takes practice to get good at it.
 
Sex isn't always a couple of trim and fit 20-somethings going at it either. Sex crosses all demographics, old, young, gay, straight, short, tall, overweight, underweight, able-bodied, disabled... You never see that in the Hollywood portrayals, and rarely in online porn (although there are probably fetish sites devoted to any and all permutations and combinations of the above).
 
Another problem is the age of the participants. If you're looking at porn online and the participants look younger than 18, even if the site says that all "models" are of legal age, how do you know? For that matter, even if they look older than 18, how do you know that they are? If you like one particular site, or one particular performer, and you keep on going back and back again, and it turns out that the performers are NOT legal age, what recourse do you have if web traffic to that site is flagged and the FBI or NSA or whatever agency carries out an investigation and implicates YOU for consumption of child porn?
 
 
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Posted: 18 February 2016 11:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
finex
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Now assuming that the porn one consumes is ethical, meaning nobody is forced to do anything without their own concent and they get paid fairly for it then I have no issues with porn.
 
Porn is not good for sex education and no one should expect their partner to perform like porn stars. Nobody should expect their partner to make even the noises the porn movies have since they are not real, but recorded afterwards and most likely by completely different people using different kind of tools to enhance the scene. Nobody would really like to hear the actual porn set with the director yelling how and in what angle the penetration should happen to get the shots for the camera.
 
Keeping the above in mind then porn is good for personal arousal and sometimes very exciting when viewed with partner(s). Not everyone likes it and if they don't let them have it that way. Never force your partner(s) to watch porn if they are not into it. 


   


Posted: 20 February 2016 01:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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MishMagnet
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Like many other things, I don't find it all good or all bad. 
 
Porn has changed dramatically with the advent of the internet.  When I was a kid - to see any porn you had to buy a magazine, buy a video tape, whatever.  It wasn't available to every person in your house with no restrictions whatsoever.
 
I'm sure people are still paying for porn, but I'm going to guess by and large people are not.  Taking the money out of the consumer end of things has changed the industry I'm sure. 
 
I won't deny there is a criminal malicious segment of the industry.  Certainly some people are there out of coersion.  Then you have people like an aquaintance of mine, she and her husband taped themselves, made their own porn flik, and posted it on an amateur site for others to view.  She encouraged me and others to view it so they would be in one of the top spots. 
 
I have become aware of a huge porn double standard.  Every one is like - oh those poor women of porn.  They are forced into it, used up, forgotten, made to endure so much.  What about the men of porn?  I've never once heard any concern for the men of porn - why is this?  Is it because it's assumed the men want to be having sex on camera?  That they like it, that they are profiting off of it?  And really, the men have the harder part of it (no pun intended).  Women don't really have to be aroused for this but men certainly do and with a lot of starts and stops and crucial timing at the end.   
 
I'm a woman in my 40's.  I view porn - I'd say rarely.  Well maybe once a month, maybe even longer than that.  (In the church of course this makes me a hard core porn addict who should seek treatment.)  Why do I do it?  It's titalating.  Arousing.  Takes me to another place.  I can forget about my real life problems for a little while.  
 
Of course when one is more interested in porn than a real life partner - that's a problem and that does happen.  Otherwise I just think of it as an optional part of a persons sex life.   
 
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Posted: 20 February 2016 04:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
jellybean
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MishMagnet:
Like many other things, I don't find it all good or all bad. 
 
Porn has changed dramatically with the advent of the internet.  When I was a kid - to see any porn you had to buy a magazine, buy a video tape, whatever.  It wasn't available to every person in your house with no restrictions whatsoever.
 
I'm sure people are still paying for porn, but I'm going to guess by and large people are not.  Taking the money out of the consumer end of things has changed the industry I'm sure. 
 
I won't deny there is a criminal malicious segment of the industry.  Certainly some people are there out of coersion.  Then you have people like an aquaintance of mine, she and her husband taped themselves, made their own porn flik, and posted it on an amateur site for others to view.  She encouraged me and others to view it so they would be in one of the top spots. 
 
I have become aware of a huge porn double standard.  Every one is like - oh those poor women of porn.  They are forced into it, used up, forgotten, made to endure so much.  What about the men of porn?  I've never once heard any concern for the men of porn - why is this?  Is it because it's assumed the men want to be having sex on camera?  That they like it, that they are profiting off of it?  And really, the men have the harder part of it (no pun intended).  Women don't really have to be aroused for this but men certainly do and with a lot of starts and stops and crucial timing at the end.   
 
I'm a woman in my 40's.  I view porn - I'd say rarely.  Well maybe once a month, maybe even longer than that.  (In the church of course this makes me a hard core porn addict who should seek treatment.)  Why do I do it?  It's titalating.  Arousing.  Takes me to another place.  I can forget about my real life problems for a little while.  
 
Of course when one is more interested in porn than a real life partner - that's a problem and that does happen.  Otherwise I just think of it as an optional part of a persons sex life.   
 
 
 I very much agree with you on this. Maybe it's just kind of the culture of late, but there does seem to be very little regard to men in general. 
 
As for porn, I've never watched it. I don't plan to, and my husband doesn't either. Nothing to do with the church, it's just odd to us to want to see other people naked. Old fashioned I suppose.
 
Also, is it just me, but nothing about actual sex is anything like TV or movies, and I am assuming, nothing at all like porn. So what exactly is the point? I was pretty disappointed when I got married (as a TBM I waited for sex), and found that it's not anything like what it is portrayed as. On that note, I would say that porn could be very harmful, or bad if you want to call it that, due to setting up unrealistic expectations.
 


   


Posted: 21 February 2016 09:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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MishMagnet
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I'm going to be a little more graphic about what I think you are saying. 
 
Porn gives men no clue about how to make a woman orgasm.  Most women I mean.  Yes, you do have that random unicorn that orgasms consistantly from penis-in-vagina (PIV) but statistics show that most women can't orgasm without a large amout of clitoral stimulation.  In some women the clitoris is located closer to the vagina than others.  If your clitoris is on the dark side of the moon - forget it, sister.  You're not getting there by accident. 
 
We endure years of sex ed in schools and awkward conversations with adults on how babies are made.  I get it.  We know the diagrams by heart.  Women have a vagina, uterus, fallopian tubes and ovaries.  Men have a penis and testicles. 
 
Our dear friend the clitoris gets no mention.  Statistics that most women need clitoral stimulation to orgams gets no mention. 
 
Growing up in the Mormon Church - I started getting asked if I masturbated at age 14.  Had never heard the word before.  I told the Bishop that.  He said - self abuse.  Still didn't really get it.  I didn't get asked this every year, but I got asked this regularly till my departure from the church.  There was a lifetime ban on masturbation.  Not before marriage, not after marriage, never.
 
Hey guess what - I was 20 years old before I even knew HOW a woman would masturbate.  I assumed a woman put something in her vagina to simulate sex.  I missed the whole point.  And I'm a woman.  I can only imagine how most men get introduced to this elusive mission.  I was 20 and a BYU student when I read in Cosmopolitan magazine that to masturbate a woman stimulates her clitoris.   
 
I've met women who are now in their 50's that never even knew a woman could have an orgasm.  I've met men who didn't know a woman could orgasm till their second marriages when they found themselves with a woman who'd had an orgasm and knew how to get there.
 
When you get married or become sexually active and you don't have an orgasm - it's embarassing.  You assume you are broken.  If your partner doesn't seem to notice or doesn't say anything about it, it becomes really difficult to speak up.  You don't want to make them feel bad.  They might be assuming they are doing a great job.  And if you don't even know how you would have an orgasm that's even worse.  Because you couldn't even point them in the right direction.  You might start faking to cover the fact that you are broken.  This isn't my reality anymore - but it was for quite a few years.  I've talked to many other women who had the same experience.   
 
SO - my biggest grief with porn is we see a man penetrate a woman who screams and carries on like she's never had such a great time, he has an orgasm and it's over.  That's not fair to women, that's not fair to men either.  And this generation coming up has got it the worst becuase they have unlimited access to porn, which is stimulating, but isn't going to help them much in the real world.
 
Being raised in a religious household were sex was only refered to as "fornication" and was fear based and so many things were meant to have everyone avoiding thinking about or having sex - it's so difficult to turn the tide with the next generation.  But we must!  Sex is one of the best things about life (in my opionion) and it defines a marriage.  It's the difference between a marriage and a close family friendship (which you would be otherwise if you were in a sexless marriage.)   
 
 
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Not Angry, A little confused, and a lot scared
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Porn, Good or Bad?
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The published journals of a gay apostate Mormon missionary
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Morg and Utah politics
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G.A. accused of sexual assault (link)
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Are you in a codependent relationship?
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A blast from the "intellectual" past
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The published journals of a gay apostate Mormon missionary  
Posted: 02 February 2016 11:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
CorbinBrodie
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Hi all,
 
With Jeff Rick's permission and suppport I'm posting here about what I think is probably a first in the ex-Mormon, post-mormon world, as far as I can tell, and please correct me anyone if I'm wrong about that.
 
I have publically published  - on Amazon's KDP platform - my complete personal journals as a missionary in Japan a few decades ago. In book form. The whole thing, warts and all. How I went out there full of sincerity. How I lost my faith. How the penny dropped that Mormonism was a bunch of made up nonsense. It's a big fat book including all the poems and short stories I wrote on my mission while figuring out who I was and realising I didn't want to convert anyone.
 
It documents how I realised that not only had two years of my life been robbed from me but how, as a gay Mormon teenager, all the possible magic of those years had been robbed from me as well. It describes (after a while) what being a young gay Mormon is like, and what discovering you accept that part of yourself is like, while still a missionary
 
Here is the link:
 
The Gate and The Garden: The Apostate Journals of a Gay Mormon Missionary in Japan
 
I apologise that it's on sale. But I'm intending to publish other things and have to start as I mean to go on. I've agreed with Jeff Ricks that a percentage of all sales will be donated to Postmo. A tithe that, for once, will actually mean something to me.
 
For postmo readers who are interested in what a mission consists of, day after day, week after week, there is plenty here for you. For gay Mormon readers, especially those thinking of going on missions, here's what that experience was like for me. I hope my book will not only convince you not to go on a mission, but will convince you that your gay life will offer you much more spiritual richness than Mormonism ever will.
 
Because the book is about 600 pages, the "look inside" option on Amazon will let you read a big chunk of the first part of it. I'm currently working with a partner on providing a "print on demand" version for anyone who prefers that to a kindle version.
 
I'm pretty sure I'm the first person to do something like this and I hope I'm not the last and that what I've done will encourage others. It is, to me, the utmost and most personal thing I can offer as my two cents added to the postmo experience: a genuine, detailed, week by week description of how realising Mormonism was all lies was for me on my mission.
 


   


Posted: 02 February 2016 12:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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Congrats!  I hope it's well received.  
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Posted: 02 February 2016 01:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
antipsicótica
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Congratulations! This is definetely in my wishlist.  Best-seller material.
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Posted: 02 February 2016 01:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
CorbinBrodie
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thanks Brad and thanks antipsicotica
 
I love the quotes you both have attached to your posts! A mix of nice brutal existentialism and that slow southern style of brutal poeticism, my favorite mix. 


   


Posted: 02 February 2016 02:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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CorbinBrodie:
 Welcome to postmormon CB! I like your post and publishing endeavor. It is way awesome nifty neet cool rad marvelous grand hunky dory brilliant righteous bitchin sweet and Jed Clampett style Hooo Doggies! I think your experience and life shared story is your story and you deserve renumeration for it. There is an internet business site that takes possession and proceeds from peoples stories. Jeff Ricks is an awesome man. Thank you both for being fair and balanced in helping people deal with and adjust to postmormon life. 
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.


   


Posted: 02 February 2016 03:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Quartersawn
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Welcome CB. 
I completely understand the frustrations of living a life that is not truly authentic, and feeling you've been robed of a good chunk of your life.
I knew I was gay in my teens as I would get off looking at Mark Spitz (Olympic swimmer) and desired Playgirl magazines over Playboy, but I was trapped by believing the church was true.
I gave over 50 years of my life, and now that I'm divorced, I'd love to fulfill that other part of me that has never had a chance to be expressed.  Yes, a life robed, that and a shitload of money. 
Glad you made it out (double entendra) !  
 
I look forward to reading your book.  
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Why would you consider a man a prophet whose morals are worse than your own? Having claimed to commune with deity, be visited by angels and receive revelations, should he not be held to a higher standard? —me


   


Posted: 02 February 2016 04:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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600 pages!  Who can read 600 pages!  Who would want to!!!!!!
 
Of course I'm kidding.  But that's a lot of pages!  But I suppose you needed to get all of that out of your system.
 
 
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Posted: 03 February 2016 08:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
CorbinBrodie
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Free2Live wow thanks! That's really reassuring and I appreciate it!
 
Quartersawn. Cheers man. It is robbery isn't it? It's double robbery. Robbery of your mind and robbery of your ability to express your own form of love and desire. In other words, it's two forms of the most intimate robbery there can be. Glad you made it out as well brother.
 
Elder OldDog.....you cheeky...cheeky...dawg
 
I guess I did need to get so much out of my system while on the mission, or rather, those pages were someone to talk to because I didn't really feel I could talk to anyone else.
 
I did think it might be too long a book, but someone pointed out to me that the amount of writing there is possibly allows a reader to sink into the experience and get a feeling for what two years as a missionary is actually like.
 


   


Posted: 14 February 2016 12:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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I am currently reading it and even bits aloud to my nevermo DH as well. Yes, It is long, but since it is ebook form, I can't really relate to that, only the lit page in front of me. And I am capable of deciding what bits I can skip.
We have a grandson on a mission. Am fairly sure his journal (judging by his letters home) will not have a tenth of the cultural and intellectual value of yours.
We really like the way you honour the people of Japan and their culture ... and also your attempts to be non-judgmental with your fellow missionaries. But where could you have gone to vent except to your journal?
Em
PS. just an fyi of no importance -- I was born in Lethbridge and grew up near there.


   


Posted: 14 February 2016 10:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
CorbinBrodie
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Emilie:
Thanks Em. I appreciate your comments. I'm pleased you're finding them (or parts of them) interesting and rewarding to read. At some time in the future I reckon historians will find Mormon missionary journals (of which there must be so many I find it strange so few are published) an interesting source for a huge range of issues because they would cover such wide-ranging geographical and cultural territory and young men don't generally keep journals.
 
What you say about skipping bits makes sense. It hadn't occurred to me but another reader mentioned that one advantage of the journal format is that it makes a book, particularly such a large one, browsable and dip-in-and-out-able.
 
Where is your grandson on his mission?
 
I went to high school in a small town near Lethbridge (changed in the journals).
 
For anyone else reading the thread who is interested I should mention the paperback version is now available at the Amazon link above. (At the very minimum price allowed by Amazon for such a large book on print on demand).
 
I've become aware not everyone does kindle.


   


Posted: 14 February 2016 11:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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CorbinBrodie:
Emilie:
 
 
For anyone else reading the thread who is interested I should mention the paperback version is now available at the Amazon link above. (At the very minimum price allowed by Amazon for such a large book on print on demand).
 
I've become aware not everyone does kindle.
 
 I downloaded an app that allows me to read a Kindle book on my Samsung. Before that I was restricted to library books and Kobo.
I've sent you a pm for the rest.
Em 


   


Posted: 21 February 2016 06:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
CorbinBrodie
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Just an update for those reading the book or anyone else interested in it. I did a little interview about myself, growing up gay and Mormon and my book for a blog that discusses being gay and Mormon.
 
 
Even apart from the interview or the book, this blog Gay Mormon Southpaw, seems like a great place to check out for anyone who is gay and Mormon or gay and ex-Mormon, with quite good content and interviews generally.
 
 
 
 


   


            
 
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Help with 12 minute video about dna. Need a rebuttal
by Strong Free & Thankful
Dedication Recommend Needed
by Denker
Mickelsen's "Dirty Linen"
by antipsicótica
Not Angry, A little confused, and a lot scared
by Winyan
Porn, Good or Bad?
by MishMagnet
Ghawd is anti-immigration?
by LostInParadise
The published journals of a gay apostate Mormon missionary
by CorbinBrodie
Morg and Utah politics
by Kevin2
St. Judas the Traitor 1st Ward - Meetup - Sunday, February 21st, 10:00am at Harmons (Draper, UT) - ***New photo at bottom of thread***
by BITE ME
the temperature of your caffeine
by evil_archer
Revised Articles of Faith
by WinstonSmith
Do You Know Anyone Who Is Developing A Death Wish Because The Next Life Is So Wonderful?
by Strong Free & Thankful
Musings on the Holy Ghost
by Hank
What's in a Name?
by Denker
A New Reformation
by Lloyd Dobler
"It's not Stockholm Syndrome, I stay because The Spirit™ told me to!"
by Lloyd Dobler
Conspiracy Theories - Why Mormons Love Them So?
by Celestial Wedgie
G.A. accused of sexual assault (link)
by Elder OldDog
Are you in a codependent relationship?
by WinstonSmith
A blast from the "intellectual" past
by Strong Free & Thankful 

   http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/42073/





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2015 Conference
"LEAVING A LEGACY"
October 16-18
Doubletree Suites
SLC, Utah




















 


Financial Report for 2011 to Date

Financial Report for 2010 to Date

Financial Report for 2009

Twin Falls Newspaper Article

Twin Falls Billboard

Financial Report for 2009 to Date




The Enemies of Reason - Richard Dawkins
[Sound Thinking]

Glad You Asked! The Garden of Eden
[Peep Stone!]

Native American DNA
[Post-Mormon Mag.]



Southern Utah PostMormon Lecture Series February 7th, 2016- Joe Rawlins
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Have You Experienced a Faith Crisis in the LDS Church—Trib survey  
Posted: 04 February 2016 02:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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The link goes to the SLTrib article/survey. It is very short.
I think they should hear from us. Your chance to speak out and be heard. 
 
http://www.sltrib.com/blogs/upin/3500753-155/tell-the-tribune-have-you-experienced 
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Why would you consider a man a prophet whose morals are worse than your own? Having claimed to commune with deity, be visited by angels and receive revelations, should he not be held to a higher standard? —me


   


Posted: 04 February 2016 03:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Thanks for the link. I have given them a (virtual) earful!
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Posted: 05 February 2016 05:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
peace out
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Ok
I filled it out should be interesting.


   


Posted: 05 February 2016 06:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Thanks for the info.  I gave them a wheelbarrow full and shared with them my favorite one-word description of the morg.
 


   


Posted: 05 February 2016 08:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
jellybean
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They want way too much personal info in my opinion. I'm not going to give them my name and email. Had it been anonymous I would have filled it out, but who knows where that info will go. 

   


Posted: 05 February 2016 09:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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jellybean:
They want way too much personal info in my opinion. I'm not going to give them my name and email. Had it been anonymous I would have filled it out, but who knows where that info will go.
 
I have a hotmail account for precisely that purpose. So when I answered the survey, it was actually "William Law" answering it! The zip code I gave was from where I work and I altered my age by a couple of years.
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Posted: 05 February 2016 02:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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The first comment to this survey stood out to me:
 
"I find it disingenuous to call it a faith crisis. That phrase passes on the responsibility to the victims.
The church is having a truth crisis.
They are simply unable to tell the truth and people notice it, and at great pain for most, rather walk away.

Faith should be used to find inspiring principles and live by them, not to play pretend." 
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.


   


Posted: 05 February 2016 02:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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wesmanlv
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FreeLive:
The first comment to this survey stood out to me:
 
"I find it disingenuous to call it a faith crisis. That phrase passes on the responsibility to the victims.
The church is having a truth crisis.
They are simply unable to tell the truth and people notice it, and at great pain for most, rather walk away.

Faith should be used to find inspiring principles and live by them, not to play pretend." 
 
OMG - i was just logging in to share the exact same thing - i loved this comment.  


   


Posted: 05 February 2016 03:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
antipsicótica
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"Let me see...was it the horses that did not exist, or the iron that did not exist, or the cities or the rivers or the reformed Eqyption....so on and so forth...really, just admit it."
 
That was a great comment. 
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Posted: 05 February 2016 06:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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FreeLive:
The first comment to this survey stood out to me:
 
"I find it disingenuous to call it a faith crisis. That phrase passes on the responsibility to the victims.
The church is having a truth crisis.
They are simply unable to tell the truth and people notice it, and at great pain for most, rather walk away.

Faith should be used to find inspiring principles and live by them, not to play pretend." 
 
 That is an amazing statement Free2Live!  I do hope someone states this to the Tribune.  I too find this survey asking for more info that I am willing to step around. 
 
We are not having a "faith crisis", the LDS church is having a "Truth Crisis!"
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 08 February 2016 05:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
former victim
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In my position or estimation, TSCC is indeed having a 'truth crisis.' Especially now that the Internet has arrived and its slowly unwinding itself, considering the current public circumstances it's constantly finding itself in.
 
To myself, the so called essays are a feeble attempt to inoculate the readers further.
 
 However, TSCC,  having put so much misleading disinformation out there that the Fossil 15 are having serious difficulties 'coming clean' with any or all of it.
 
A Truth Crisis indeed. Nothing could be closer to the truth..except, maybe,  coming clean.


   


Posted: 15 February 2016 02:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Morethanmo
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Kirby's response-- http://www.sltrib.com/news/3531822-155/kirby-all-the-details-of-my
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__________________________________________

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________


   


            
 
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God Was Once A Man? I Don’t Remember Them Teaching Me This???  
Posted: 07 February 2016 06:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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guywithearrings50
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I left the morg about 4 years ago and am happily attending another (Christian) church. I was reading the ESV study bible under an article about cults (guess which was the first cult listed? you get 3 guesses and the first two don't count.)
 
Anyway I read there that the claim is that the mormons believe that God was once a man and progressed to his exalted state.
 
I researched it and realized that this was doctrine since the 1840's and that JS taught it as did many "prophets" after him. I don't remember being specifically taught this in Sunday School and Priesthood class (and I taught priesthood for about 4 years)
 
I did some research and realized that this teaching is in the Gospel Principles manual and the teachings of the church presidents. I also read online that president Hinckley distanced himself from this teaching in the late 90's because it was too controversial but it is still in the lesson manuals.
 
This is some seriously f***ed up s**t!!! 
 
Why don't I remember this? Was I sleeping during those lessons? 


   


Posted: 07 February 2016 07:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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Morethanmo
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guywithearrings:
I left the morg about 4 years ago and am happily attending another (Christian) church. I was reading the ESV study bible under an article about cults (guess which was the first cult listed? you get 3 guesses and the first two don't count.)
 
Anyway I read there that the claim is that the mormons believe that God was once a man and progressed to his exalted state.
 
I researched it and realized that this was doctrine since the 1840's and that JS taught it as did many "prophets" after him. I don't remember being specifically taught this in Sunday School and Priesthood class (and I taught priesthood for about 4 years)
 
I did some research and realized that this teaching is in the Gospel Principles manual and the teachings of the church presidents. I also read online that president Hinckley distanced himself from this teaching in the late 90's because it was too controversial but it is still in the lesson manuals.
 
This is some seriously f***ed up s**t!!! 
 
Why don't I remember this? Was I sleeping during those lessons? 
 
I definitely remember that from the lessons. And it sounds like my ward emphasized that a lot. It really depends on the ward you lived in. 
 Signature
__________________________________________

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________


   


Posted: 07 February 2016 08:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise
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Maybe it's because I'm too recently disaffected and haven't had enough time to detox, or maybe it's because I currently have no idea whether I believe in God nor what his/her/its attributes might be. But of all the offensive things the morg teaches, this is pretty low on my scale of disturbing ideas. It doesn't seem unfathomable to me, especially if you divorce yourself from the idea that anyone really has all the answers, including the nature of God and whether he is or has always been perfect, all-knowing, and all-powerful. Maybe he's more like the Greek and roman gods...fallible, progressive, and exalted from a prior state (okay, I don't know if that last one is actually an attribute of the Greek/roman gods).
 
I'm gonna catch hell for this, aren't I? 
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Posted: 07 February 2016 09:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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Oh I definitely remember this teaching.  Big time.  It was one of the teachings that insisted that our husbands will need to be polygamous.  In my opinion, polygamy is horribly disrespectful and abusive to women.  How would you men feel?  This teaching is one that sets us apart from Protestant religions and one those religions see as major blaspheme.  It is one that causes them to call mormons, "non-Christian."  Perhaps, Lost in Paradise, you do not remember this because the church began to tone down some of these teachings as the internet showed how weird mormonism is and they wanted to become more "Protestant."  Another ploy for survival.  The mormon god is, after all, bi-polar you know.  He (LDS, Inc) changes his teachings to whatever is most lucrative. 
 
As for god, well--just my humble opinion but--perhaps we have met god and he is us.  Perhaps we have met the devil and he is us as well.  Perhaps we get to choose which one we are.  I do believe there are parts of "god" if you can call him/her/it that, which affect the universe and us.  Perhaps some of those are the energy of the universe, which we are all connected to and as Tesla said (I am paraphrasing) "A universal bank of intelligence, which we all have the ability to tap into."  I suspect that we are energy beings which live on after we leave our physical bodies.  Perhaps we retain our consciousness and have the ability to affect energy and matter--even after we die.  Some people who are a lot smarter than me also believe this.  We shall see.
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 07 February 2016 11:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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guywithearrings:
I left the morg about 4 years ago and am happily attending another (Christian) church. I was reading the ESV study bible under an article about cults (guess which was the first cult listed? you get 3 guesses and the first two don't count.)
 
Anyway I read there that the claim is that the mormons believe that God was once a man and progressed to his exalted state.
 
I researched it and realized that this was doctrine since the 1840's and that JS taught it as did many "prophets" after him. I don't remember being specifically taught this in Sunday School and Priesthood class (and I taught priesthood for about 4 years)
 
I did some research and realized that this teaching is in the Gospel Principles manual and the teachings of the church presidents. I also read online that president Hinckley distanced himself from this teaching in the late 90's because it was too controversial but it is still in the lesson manuals.
 
This is some seriously f***ed up s**t!!! 
 
Why don't I remember this? Was I sleeping during those lessons? 
 
 Sometime in the mid 1980's, the church hired an expensive Jewish New York PR firm to whitewash and repackage mormonism to make it more appealing (or less appalling) to the public. They stopped teaching, and even denied things that had been taught since Joseph Smith.
 
It's coming back around to bite them in the rump now, though. They can't hide it from the internet. 


   


Posted: 07 February 2016 12:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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guywithearrings:
I left the morg about 4 years ago and am happily attending another (Christian) church. I was reading the ESV study bible under an article about cults (guess which was the first cult listed? you get 3 guesses and the first two don't count.)
 
Anyway I read there that the claim is that the mormons believe that God was once a man and progressed to his exalted state.
 
I researched it and realized that this was doctrine since the 1840's and that JS taught it as did many "prophets" after him. I don't remember being specifically taught this in Sunday School and Priesthood class (and I taught priesthood for about 4 years)
 
I did some research and realized that this teaching is in the Gospel Principles manual and the teachings of the church presidents. I also read online that president Hinckley distanced himself from this teaching in the late 90's because it was too controversial but it is still in the lesson manuals.
 
This is some seriously f***ed up s**t!!! 
 
Why don't I remember this? Was I sleeping during those lessons? 
 
 My life was always filled with upbringing of truth honesty and integrity. Ultimately seeing hearing, feeling, touching the hypocrisy is what broke my proverbial shelf of cognitive dissonanative suspended beliefs. Triumphantly a belief in the cuplet that man is what god once was and will mature into godhood ought to be broadcast to the world. A coward Bitner denying his doctrine ought to be more than just a menial controversy. Being true to oneself should ignite a soul into departure from the insanity called religion. A so called prophet can't even deliver their dogma openly to the public but demand that every member be a missionary. It is a miracle! The Church is coming out of obscurity.
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.


   


Posted: 07 February 2016 03:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Mark D Larsen
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For the past couple of decades, the cult has kept increasingly quiet about this doctrine, basically because they know how outsiders will react upon hearing it. In other words... gotta maintain a glib, polished, osmondized appearance to the world, lest anyone want to look beneath the surface to see that Mormon beliefs are friggin' weird.
 
When I was growing up, however, the doctrine was standard fare, something often used to inculcate us that we had a "divine destiny" to live up to. And there is no denying that it is official dogma.
 
What is most appalling is that such a teaching is devoid of practical, common sense. Indeed, to anyone with at least half-a-brain, it only invokes more questions than it answers.
 
I once posted a verbose diatribe about it, if you're interested:
 
Giving God the Finger 


   


Posted: 07 February 2016 06:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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Good article Mark.  Thought provoking.  Yes, to think that a god--the size of a human-being could rule the entire universe is rather ludicrous, isn't it?
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 08 February 2016 04:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
Jonathan Bentz (formerly AspieXLDS)
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This, along with the Plan of Salvation itself, is one of my favorite "doctrines" to get into a discussion about. See, inevitably, when you point out the atrocities of 'God', believers will say "you're trying to apply man's laws to a being that transcends them." My response is typically along these lines: 
 
"So, let me get this straight. The Doctrine & Covenants teaches that "as man is, God once was, and as God is, man can become", right?" They nod. "Then by your own teachings, God is a man who has evolved past our current state of being, but still a man nonetheless. If he is a man, exalted or not, he can be judged by the laws of men. And by the laws of men, he is a genocidal madman." 
 
As for the PoS (ha, I just realized what its acronym also means!), I generally bring up two things:
 
1. It actually does force us, like Lucifer's plan. It just gives us the illusion of choice in that we can "choose to follow the path of Christ" or choose not to. But choosing not to, especially if we believe, means we're cast into Outer Darkness or one of the lesser kingdoms.
 
2. Christ's plan required two things; someone to sacrifice themselves (namely himself) and an adversary to tempt the people away. After all, isn't all evil placed on Satan's/Lucifer's shoulders, so to speak? Thus he must be cast as this vain, arrogant figure who rebels after his plan is rejected. Yet, tying into the 'God was once a man" doctrine, God had to have followed a similar path, which means he had to have faced an adversary of his own. Which means he knew that one would be needed. Seems to me that, knowing this, he created one and his 'mortal puppets' ensured people saw Lucifer/Satan only in one light. So if it is all true (which obviously, we here don't believe but the people I use these arguments on do), then God created the adversary, and one has to wonder if Lucifer is truly as evil, or if he is merely another pawn in a grand game of chess. 
 
Now, stranglely enough, people don't like to engage me on doctrinal topics. Odd, no? 
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“All that is left for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.” - Edmund Burke
“Welcome to the real world.” Morpheus to Neo, on the Matrix.
“You’re happy to believe in something that’s invisible, but if it’s staring you in the face, nope, can’t see it! There’s a scientific explanation for that… you’re thick!” - The 9th Doctor regarding the Human Race.


   


Posted: 08 February 2016 07:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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I remember that idea in a little verse  --  "As man is now, God once was and as God is now, man may become".  That went hand in hand with the idea that we could become gods and godesses, create and populate our own worlds.  Then, GBH, in an interview on national TV said that is was a cute little cuplet and that we don't teach that anymore  --  throwing previous profits under the bus.  It is no wonder that men can have multiple wives(only when the previous spouse dies) because you're gonna need a lot of spirits for the bodies to populate your worlds  --  in my mind the CK is gonna be a sexfest for the men while women just pop those babies out for eternity, giving new meanin to being "barefoot and pregnant". 

   


Posted: 08 February 2016 09:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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guywithearrings50
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Thanks for all your responses.
 
I wonder how much more weird stuff the church claims is true but stopped "teaching" it because it was too weird for the general public to take in?
 
Boy, if I didn't already think the morg was a crazy f****d up dangerous cult before, I certainly do now. More than ever. How can people believe this crap? Oh wait, I guess I did for 18 years, shame on me.
 
I've been out for almost 4 years and consider myself lucky to get out when I did. It's taking a long time to heal  


   


Posted: 08 February 2016 11:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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maynardg
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I have mentioned this in other posts  --  IMVHO, I believe that morgbots are in a "morgbot coma" and every week they take the scarament it is like a "religious fix" and every six months they get another "fix" from the fossil 15 penishood holders as well as some other TBMorgbots.  Reminds me of the scene in "Cowboys and Aliens" where the captured townspeople are held captive in a cave and they are gazing into a blue light  --  the morgbot coma.  Some how, some of us "saw the light"/"saw behind the curtain" and we saw the morg for what it is   --  a big stinking pile of HORESHIT.
IMVHO, I believe it is easier to make new friends if you are no longer captive in "morg heaven".  Many of my work friends are morgbots and they don't know that I am an "apostate"  --  don't advertise it.  My family allows me to be what I want to be and we get along great  --  religion is not an ongoing discussion.  They do discuss morgbot things but I let it go in one ear and right out the other(I had a post earlier where my 6 year old granddaughter asked me why I didn't go to church).  Presently, I don't have time to develop/nuture any new friendships.  Besides, I have really been a lone-wolf most of my life with very few friends.   


   


Posted: 08 February 2016 02:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Rmyth
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If you were a baby boomer, you would have remembered it.  We were all taught that wonderful stuff that was once docrine, now it isn't.
 


   


Posted: 08 February 2016 04:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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guywithearrings50
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I was born the first year after the end of the baby boomers. I didn't join the church until I was 28 years old in 1993. 
 
I honestly don't remember ever learning that God was once a man...unless I have repressed the memory.
 
I was reading in the ESV study bible an article about "cults" and the LDS church was the first one listed and this was the first thing mentioned in the article. I was talking to a couple at my (new Christian) church who had read the article and I told them that I didn't know anything about this teaching that God was once a man.  
 
Boy, my ward and stake must have really done a good job of hiding this teaching. The Christian churches really have a field day with this one...


   


Posted: 08 February 2016 07:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
jellybean
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GenX here, and totally was taught this growing up. In fact, I was quiet surprised when people were talking about it being a hidden doctrine. It was always talked about. 

   


Posted: 09 February 2016 02:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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4thNephite
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guywithearrings:
I left the morg about 4 years ago and am happily attending another (Christian) church. I was reading the ESV study bible under an article about cults (guess which was the first cult listed? you get 3 guesses and the first two don't count.)
 
Anyway I read there that the claim is that the mormons believe that God was once a man and progressed to his exalted state.
 
I researched it and realized that this was doctrine since the 1840's and that JS taught it as did many "prophets" after him. I don't remember being specifically taught this in Sunday School and Priesthood class (and I taught priesthood for about 4 years)
 
I did some research and realized that this teaching is in the Gospel Principles manual and the teachings of the church presidents. I also read online that president Hinckley distanced himself from this teaching in the late 90's because it was too controversial but it is still in the lesson manuals.
 
This is some seriously f***ed up s**t!!! 
 
Why don't I remember this? Was I sleeping during those lessons? 
 
1. You must not have paid very close attention in church. Were you only a member for a short time?
 
2.  Why is it "f***ud up"? Can you explain how the particular religious myths you currently believe are somehow superior?
 
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Posted: 09 February 2016 04:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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They stopped emphasizing that teaching when Gordon B. Hinkley stated that he didn't believe he'd ever heard of it.
 
Lying through his teeth to Time Magazine and other interviewers, when "Mitt Romney" was running for President.
 
They wanted to get him elected so hid that teaching away for the rest of eternity.
 
But it was taught in every Seminary Class I ever attended as well as RS lesson manuals, etc. etc.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 09 February 2016 04:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
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guywithearrings50
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thNephite:
guywithearrings:
I left the morg about 4 years ago and am happily attending another (Christian) church. I was reading the ESV study bible under an article about cults (guess which was the first cult listed? you get 3 guesses and the first two don't count.)
 
Anyway I read there that the claim is that the mormons believe that God was once a man and progressed to his exalted state.
 
I researched it and realized that this was doctrine since the 1840's and that JS taught it as did many "prophets" after him. I don't remember being specifically taught this in Sunday School and Priesthood class (and I taught priesthood for about 4 years)
 
I did some research and realized that this teaching is in the Gospel Principles manual and the teachings of the church presidents. I also read online that president Hinckley distanced himself from this teaching in the late 90's because it was too controversial but it is still in the lesson manuals.
 
This is some seriously f***ed up s**t!!! 
 
Why don't I remember this? Was I sleeping during those lessons? 
 
1. You must not have paid very close attention in church. Were you only a member for a short time?
 
2.  Why is it "f***ud up"? Can you explain how the particular religious myths you currently believe are somehow superior?
 
 
 1. Maybe I have amnesia. Because I was a member for 18 years. About a year ago, I was reading an article about the "cult" of Mormonism and this was the first item listed as what mormon's believed and I said to my wife that I don't remember this being a teaching. If it was taught then it was veiled, and I don't do well with veiled teachings. Tell it to me like it is.
 
2. The fact that God was once a man is the one of the stupidest thing I have ever heard in regards to religious beliefs. And I've heard some pretty dumb ones. the current religious "myths" I believe now say that God is eternal and was always God. It's called Christianity. 


   


Posted: 09 February 2016 04:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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guywithearrings50
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Tessa:
They stopped emphasizing that teaching when Gordon B. Hinkley stated that he didn't believe he'd ever heard of it.
 
Lying through his teeth to Time Magazine and other interviewers, when "Mitt Romney" was running for President.
 
They wanted to get him elected so hid that teaching away for the rest of eternity.
 
But it was taught in every Seminary Class I ever attended as well as RS lesson manuals, etc. etc.
 
Thank you, Tessa.
 
They certainly never emphasized it in our ward. When it was mentioned I might have been having an off moment when I just accepted anything they told me blindly (I went  through periods of that kind of behaviour) and didn't really realize fully what they were saying. 
 
but this has to be one of the dumbest teachings of the church, though and like I mentioned before there were a lot of dumb ones (Kolob, people living on the moon, etc.) 


   


Posted: 10 February 2016 06:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise:
Maybe it's because I'm too recently disaffected and haven't had enough time to detox, or maybe it's because I currently have no idea whether I believe in God nor what his/her/its attributes might be. But of all the offensive things the morg teaches, this is pretty low on my scale of disturbing ideas. It doesn't seem unfathomable to me, especially if you divorce yourself from the idea that anyone really has all the answers, including the nature of God and whether he is or has always been perfect, all-knowing, and all-powerful. Maybe he's more like the Greek and roman gods...fallible, progressive, and exalted from a prior state (okay, I don't know if that last one is actually an attribute of the Greek/roman gods).
 
I'm gonna catch hell for this, aren't I? 
 
 I was amazed at how quickly my mind shed all the superfluous mormon trivia once I stopped believing and left the church!  It's like it just jetisoned the crazy shiz out to sea.
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Posted: 10 February 2016 06:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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Dovolente
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Rmyth:
If you were a baby boomer, you would have remembered it.  We were all taught that wonderful stuff that was once docrine, now it isn't.
 
 
 As doctrine is, theories of men once were. As theories of men are, doctrine may become.


   


Posted: 10 February 2016 06:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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Rmyth
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Dovolente:
Rmyth:
If you were a baby boomer, you would have remembered it.  We were all taught that wonderful stuff that was once docrine, now it isn't.
 
 
 As doctrine is, theories of men once were. As theories of men are, doctrine may become.
 
 Amen to that.  You know when you graduate 4 years of seminary in the 60's and BYU in the early 70's, I can't even fathom anyone having any kind of testimony as so much doctrine has changed.  I remember very vividly in seminary (in So. Idaho yet) that the reason Utah had the death penalty by firing squad was because of the docrine which stated the only way to be forgiven of the sin of murder was to have your own blood spilt.  
 
Fast forward to the early 90's when I moved to Utah and I can still see Dick Nourse on channel 5 talking about the legislature reviewing different methods of death penalty.  He explained that the practice of the death penalty by firing squad was merely "folk doctrine" of the church.  Not sure the year.  I think it was like '93.  First time I ever heard the tearm "folk doctrine".  I remember turning to my wife and saying "you got to be kidding me".  That was probably the first time I decided to start questioning.  There was no doubt in my mind what I had been taught as doctrine.  I mean really?  Four years of seminary and minoring in religion at BYU?  
 
How can anyone who was active in the 60's and earlyl 70's believe anything the church says after all the changes in doctrine and everything else that has transpired withing the morg?   I just don't think there is that much kool aide to go around is there?  
 
What's worse is when I talk to younger TBM's about what I learned in seminary and at BYU that long ago and they think I am just lying or misunderstood or labeled as an anti.  I hate that.
 
 


   


Posted: 10 February 2016 07:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise
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dicksolomon:
LostInParadise:
Maybe it's because I'm too recently disaffected and haven't had enough time to detox, or maybe it's because I currently have no idea whether I believe in God nor what his/her/its attributes might be. But of all the offensive things the morg teaches, this is pretty low on my scale of disturbing ideas. It doesn't seem unfathomable to me, especially if you divorce yourself from the idea that anyone really has all the answers, including the nature of God and whether he is or has always been perfect, all-knowing, and all-powerful. Maybe he's more like the Greek and roman gods...fallible, progressive, and exalted from a prior state (okay, I don't know if that last one is actually an attribute of the Greek/roman gods).
 
I'm gonna catch hell for this, aren't I? 
 
 I was amazed at how quickly my mind shed all the superfluous mormon trivia once I stopped believing and left the church!  It's like it just jetisoned the crazy shiz out to sea.
 
So you may not remember this little pearl: They actually teach that forgetting that sh___... er, stuff, is BECAUSE you apostatized. "Don't leave the church, because once you lose the spirit, you'll forget what you believed and why you believed it. It will be SO hard to come back." Something like that. Convenient, eh?
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Posted: 10 February 2016 08:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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Dovolente:

As doctrine is, theories of men once were. As theories of men are, doctrine may become.
 
Dovolente, you are my hero today. That is one brilliant couplet!
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Posted: 10 February 2016 08:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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Rmyth:
<snipped a lot>
  
How can anyone who was active in the 60's and earlyl 70's believe anything the church says after all the changes in doctrine and everything else that has transpired withing the morg?   I just don't think there is that much kool aide to go around is there?  
 
What's worse is when I talk to younger TBM's about what I learned in seminary and at BYU that long ago and they think I am just lying or misunderstood or labeled as an anti. I hate that.
 
This is so true. And try to convince someone under the age of 40 that the temple used to contain blood oaths and penalties. They'll accuse you of being anti without giving it a thought. You can tell them to ask their parents and grandparents, but many of the older generations will say that it's too sacred to discuss and leave it at that. So the under 40 crowd won't get answers.
 
One of the reasons changes aren't talked about is that The Brethren™ know full well that once something changes, the memory goes down the wormhole faster than anyone can imagine. It's as if mormons are programmed that way. The profit and apostles have a permanent free pass, because they speak for (mormon) god. 
 
The statement "When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done" was made 16 years before I made my debut on this planet, but in my lifetime the statement "When the prophet speaks, the debate is over" came from the pulpit at general conference. It's official, mormons don't have to think or debate. It's done for them.
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Posted: 10 February 2016 02:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]   

   
 
Joycee
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jellybean:
GenX here, and totally was taught this growing up. In fact, I was quiet surprised when people were talking about it being a hidden doctrine. It was always talked about.
 
GenX here too and this was taught in Seminary and church all the time (Provo area).  I actually thought this was the coolest part of being Mormon and argued the fact with my devout Lutheran grandma.  I was disappointed when I heard this had been shelved, but was out by then anyway. 


   


Posted: 11 February 2016 04:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]   

   
 
Hank
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As a convert about 20 years ago, this concept was learned within the first year. I thought it a pretty cool thing, It gave us humans purpose to being here and something to look forward to. Of course, it didn't provide any answer as to beginnings because the next logical question would be "Ok, where did God's God come from? Shruggs.
 
Most other religions look at God as always having been around and always will be, making us mortals eternal minions doing nothing but playing harps and singing praises for all eternities. Bleh!


   


Posted: 11 February 2016 07:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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We were always told and I quote "We were Gods/Goddesses in Embryo"....all us little Embryos just waiting to get to Celestial Kingdom and get "born-again" to go off and create our own planets.... Fun stuff...is it any wonder the GAs are so full of themselves? They're so puffed-up thinking they'll be gods...
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


            
 
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True tithing in black and white  
Posted: 10 February 2016 06:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise
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The church now has an article on its website explaining tithing according to JS's doctrine:
 
https://history.lds.org/article/the-tithing-of-my-people?lang=eng
 
  “And after that,” the revelation says, “those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually.” The revelation does not call it a lesser law to be replaced someday, but “a standing Law unto them forever” and applicable to all Saints everywhere.
 
About a month ago, I told DW we've all been paying it wrong, and she looked at me like I was crazy. I figure, even if I wanted to stay in the morg, I'm probably paid up for a lifetime membership.
 
Everything they taught me about the devil: binding you with a flaxen cord, leading you steadily down to hell, mingling the philosophies of men with scripture, telling half-truths, false revelations, intimidating you with fear, etc., etc.... It was all THEM! It's the church that's doing all that! 
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credit: Matter Unorganized


   


Posted: 10 February 2016 07:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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LostInParadise:
...
Everything they taught me about the devil: binding you with a flaxen cord, leading you steadily down to hell, mingling the philosophies of men with scripture, telling half-truths, false revelations, intimidating you with fear, etc., etc.... It was all THEM! It's the church that's doing all that! 
 
 Yep! 
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One is as committed into testimony as much as they pay into the belief in dollars, time, talent and energy. Afterall, it has to be true once you have signed the lifetime subscription and you have a track record to defend.


   


Posted: 10 February 2016 10:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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Rmyth
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That is always the way understood the law of tithing.  Now several years ago the bishop called me in and wanted to talk to me about tithing since I wasn't paying any.  Incidently, it is the last time I have ever talked to a bishop.  Anyway, he asked me if I was a ful tithe payer.  I told him that I thought I was since you are to pay 10% of your increase and I have had a decrease.  He asked me what I meant.  So, I told him.  I sit before you bishop as a member who just lost everything.  401k, retirment, equity in home, everything.  The IRS has a lien on my home and they want about 1/2 million dollars from me.  So, you ad up what I make minus what the IRS wants to collect form me and that is a decrease.  Do you think I can get some money back?  (jockingly of course)
 
He said, well, you have a job don't you.  I said yes.  Then he told me that I should be paying tithing on my job.  I said, no, I told you I just had a decrease.  He absolutely didn't understand.  So, I tried to explain the law of tithing to him.  He told me I was wrong.  
 
When the next December rolled around I got a call from the bishops executive secretary insisting that that bishop wanted me in tithing settlement.  At the time I was still going to church and hadn't said anything to anyone about where my lack of testimony stood.  Anyway, I told the executive secretary (who is merely the messenger, nice guy) to please tell the bishop that the last disucssion I had with him didnt' go well and I have no desire to meet with him for any reason whatsoever either now or in the future.  I asked him if he wouldn't personally tell the bishop that for me.  He said he would. 
 
That was in 2004.   Neither that bishop or the next one has ever tried to contact me again for any reason.    NOt even the home teachers have come by since then since I told them they were welcome to come as long as they didn't bring a lesson. LOL
 
 


   


Posted: 10 February 2016 02:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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In the Bible, the purpose of tithing was so there would be meat in the storehouses. Not one penny of mormon tithing goes to feed anyone. You have to pay extra for that... fast offerings, humanitarian fund, etc. 
 
If you want to tithe and actually help people, there are much better ways. World Food Program, Red Cross, Salvation Army, homeless shelters, food pantries, soup kitchens...


   


Posted: 10 February 2016 02:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith
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About 3 years ago I told DW that I would be willing to pay tithing per the law of tithing found in D&C 119. The topic has never since come up and I do not pay a dime. DW is a stay at home mom and on occasion makes a few dollars here and there. She pays her tithing on that income and she maintains a temple recommend---I don't think that could happen in the church 50 years ago---My grandmother is an example of being denied a temple recommend, due to my grandfathers disbelief and not paying tithing in a single family income household.
 
About two years ago our bishop asked if I was a full tithe payer. I responded by saying "Yes" per the law of tithing found in D&C 119. His response was that he would need to look that one up.  WTF!!! He needed to look that up? Isn't this the guy who is suppose to be the judge in Israel that members are required to profess a claim of being a full tithe payer or not? Shouldn't these guys at least know the scriptural reference for the Law of Tithing. WTF! WTF! WTF!  
 
 
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Posted: 10 February 2016 06:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
Strong Free & Thankful
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FreeLive:
LostInParadise:
...
Everything they taught me about the devil: binding you with a flaxen cord, leading you steadily down to hell, mingling the philosophies of men with scripture, telling half-truths, false revelations, intimidating you with fear, etc., etc.... It was all THEM! It's the church that's doing all that! 
 
 Yep! 
 
 I would think that evil that pretends to be god would be a worse evil than just plain evil.  Joseph Smith most likely knew he was evil and laughed about how he could warn people of a devil--which description fit him to a tee.  Funny thing is--you are correct LostInParadise--your description of what you were taught the devil was fits the mormon church and its modern-day leaders to a tee as well.  Lucky us to be out! What is really sad is that some of the best people in the world are caught up in this evil fraud.  All they wanted was to do the right thing and be with their families forever.    Their lives and minds have been stolen and they may never know it.  How can we walk away and leave them there--without fighting to free them? 
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I laughed out loud and said “Thank you sir. And I hope every time you hear the name of JS you don’t think about him having sex with those girls and the women who were already married because if you’re going to start being honest with yourself then sooner or later you will also realize a real god would never do that, a real prophet would never do that, and it’s all just bull shit.”
Oh mercy, it just felt so damn good to say that.  —BOLD WISH


   


Posted: 10 February 2016 11:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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Strong Free & Thankful:
FreeLive:
LostInParadise:
...
Everything they taught me about the devil: binding you with a flaxen cord, leading you steadily down to hell, mingling the philosophies of men with scripture, telling half-truths, false revelations, intimidating you with fear, etc., etc.... It was all THEM! It's the church that's doing all that! 
 
 Yep! 
 
 I would think that evil that pretends to be god would be a worse evil than just plain evil.  Joseph Smith most likely knew he was evil and laughed about how he could warn people of a devil--which description fit him to a tee.  Funny thing is--you are correct LostInParadise--your description of what you were taught the devil was fits the mormon church and its modern-day leaders to a tee as well.  Lucky us to be out! What is really sad is that some of the best people in the world are caught up in this evil fraud.  All they wanted was to do the right thing and be with their families forever.    Their lives and minds have been stolen and they may never know it.  How can we walk away and leave them there--without fighting to free them? 
 
 That's a good question. I've struggled with that too. But my attempts at sharing and reasoning haven't gone well with mormon family and friends. So I decided the best thing I can do is just be happy. Maybe they'll notice that leaving didn't turn me into a horrid person, and that there is life after mormonism. And maybe that will help when they confront their own doubts.


   


Posted: 11 February 2016 08:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
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LostInParadise
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Winyan:
Strong Free & Thankful:
FreeLive:
LostInParadise:
...
Everything they taught me about the devil: binding you with a flaxen cord, leading you steadily down to hell, mingling the philosophies of men with scripture, telling half-truths, false revelations, intimidating you with fear, etc., etc.... It was all THEM! It's the church that's doing all that! 
 
 Yep! 
 
 I would think that evil that pretends to be god would be a worse evil than just plain evil.  Joseph Smith most likely knew he was evil and laughed about how he could warn people of a devil--which description fit him to a tee.  Funny thing is--you are correct LostInParadise--your description of what you were taught the devil was fits the mormon church and its modern-day leaders to a tee as well.  Lucky us to be out! What is really sad is that some of the best people in the world are caught up in this evil fraud.  All they wanted was to do the right thing and be with their families forever.    Their lives and minds have been stolen and they may never know it.  How can we walk away and leave them there--without fighting to free them? 
 
 That's a good question. I've struggled with that too. But my attempts at sharing and reasoning haven't gone well with mormon family and friends. So I decided the best thing I can do is just be happy. Maybe they'll notice that leaving didn't turn me into a horrid person, and that there is life after mormonism. And maybe that will help when they confront their own doubts.
 
I hope so! Because right now, DW and I want to convert each other, and there's no traction either direction, only misunderstanding. I know I would have sided with her all-too-recently, so I'm trying to be patient! If we could just agree to disagree, it wouldn't be so bad, but she of course feels like it's her religious duty to save me, on top of the need to preserve her Eternal Family!
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Posted: 11 February 2016 10:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
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Winyan:

That's a good question. I've struggled with that too. But my attempts at sharing and reasoning haven't gone well with mormon family and friends. So I decided the best thing I can do is just be happy. Maybe they'll notice that leaving didn't turn me into a horrid person, and that there is life after mormonism. And maybe that will help when they confront their own doubts.
 
That's exactly what my brother told me when I recently announced my disaffection to him. He said "I actually think it's good for them to have a child who doesn't go to their church. I hope it helps them realize that someone can be a good person even if they aren't Mormon."
 
Sometimes living well is the best reasoning we can give them. 
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Posted: 12 February 2016 12:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Denker
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Winyan:
In the Bible, the purpose of tithing was so there would be meat in the storehouses. Not one penny of mormon tithing goes to feed anyone. You have to pay extra for that... fast offerings, humanitarian fund, etc. 
 
If you want to tithe and actually help people, there are much better ways. World Food Program, Red Cross, Salvation Army, homeless shelters, food pantries, soup kitchens...
 
 I agree.  These are the kinds of places where our Lord Jesus Christ would want the tithing money to go.  Jesus taught that care of the poor, the hungry and naked, the unsheltered and underprivileged should be a true disciple's highest priority.  Therefore, it seems quite evident that the church that bears his name, and his "special witnesses" who administer the funds, have it all wrong.  The building of expensive temples for the purpose of performing vacuous Masonic rites and redeeming the dead (whom he has already redeemed) are grounds for great condemnation and a calling to account.  It smacks of the kind of hypocrisy our Lord so despised in the Pharisees.  Matt. 23:1-28 offers a nearly perfect comparison. 


   


Posted: 13 February 2016 05:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Winyan
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Denker:
Winyan:
In the Bible, the purpose of tithing was so there would be meat in the storehouses. Not one penny of mormon tithing goes to feed anyone. You have to pay extra for that... fast offerings, humanitarian fund, etc. 
 
If you want to tithe and actually help people, there are much better ways. World Food Program, Red Cross, Salvation Army, homeless shelters, food pantries, soup kitchens...
 
 I agree.  These are the kinds of places where our Lord Jesus Christ would want the tithing money to go.  Jesus taught that care of the poor, the hungry and naked, the unsheltered and underprivileged should be a true disciple's highest priority.  Therefore, it seems quite evident that the church that bears his name, and his "special witnesses" who administer the funds, have it all wrong.  The building of expensive temples for the purpose of performing vacuous Masonic rites and redeeming the dead (whom he has already redeemed) are grounds for great condemnation and a calling to account.  It smacks of the kind of hypocrisy our Lord so despised in the Pharisees.  Matt. 23:1-28 offers a nearly perfect comparison. 
 
I agree, Denker. He said we're His temple, and He doesn't dwell in temples built by human hands. And that the way we can show love is by taking care of those in need. It seemed to be the most important thing.


   


Posted: 15 February 2016 12:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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LostInParadise:
Winyan:
Strong Free & Thankful:
FreeLive:
LostInParadise:
...
Everything they taught me about the devil: binding you with a flaxen cord, leading you steadily down to hell, mingling the philosophies of men with scripture, telling half-truths, false revelations, intimidating you with fear, etc., etc.... It was all THEM! It's the church that's doing all that! 
 
 Yep! 
 
 I would think that evil that pretends to be god would be a worse evil than just plain evil.  Joseph Smith most likely knew he was evil and laughed about how he could warn people of a devil--which description fit him to a tee.  Funny thing is--you are correct LostInParadise--your description of what you were taught the devil was fits the mormon church and its modern-day leaders to a tee as well.  Lucky us to be out! What is really sad is that some of the best people in the world are caught up in this evil fraud.  All they wanted was to do the right thing and be with their families forever.    Their lives and minds have been stolen and they may never know it.  How can we walk away and leave them there--without fighting to free them? 
 
 That's a good question. I've struggled with that too. But my attempts at sharing and reasoning haven't gone well with mormon family and friends. So I decided the best thing I can do is just be happy. Maybe they'll notice that leaving didn't turn me into a horrid person, and that there is life after mormonism. And maybe that will help when they confront their own doubts.
 
I hope so! Because right now, DW and I want to convert each other, and there's no traction either direction, only misunderstanding. I know I would have sided with her all-too-recently, so I'm trying to be patient! If we could just agree to disagree, it wouldn't be so bad, but she of course feels like it's her religious duty to save me, on top of the need to preserve her Eternal Family!
 
 I probably should post this comment tomorrow. It is late and I am sleepy.
 
There is so much stuff to cover! I am not sure how to present this information. First  here is a "QUOTE" from Elder Glenn Pace back in 1990:
 
{The spiritual indoctrination which takes place during the physical abuse is one of the most difficult to overcome. In addition to experiencing stark terror and pain, the children are also instructed in satanic doctrine. Everything is completely reversed: white is black, black is white, good is bad, bad is good, Satan is going to rule during the Millenium.} page 3 paragraph 3
 
http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no80.htm#PACE MEMO
 
This memo was leaked back in 1990. It was written to the first presidency by Elder Pace.
 
Even if you or I had not been first hand perpetrators or victims of these malevalent cultists we all have and know of those that have been treated 3rd hand by the handbook of instructions. Protect the corporation. Defend the offenders. Disparage the victims. 
 
Want more links?
http://mediamonarchy.com/2013/08/idaho-gothic-story-of-baby-x/
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/brocked-up-supervisor-fulton-brock-attempted-to-cover-up-the-sexual-liaisons-between-his-wife-daughter-and-a-teenage-boy-6450425
http://www.lds-mormon.com/whytemplechanges.shtml
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_L._Pace
 
What does love have to do with a church that is run by fear? - STAYlds...My Ass!!!
 
Please read all 12 pages of this Memorandum to the Strengthening Church Members Committee. It was written from a TBM perspective at the time. Mr Pace was retired to Emeritus rank in 2010.
 
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Provo temple open house  
Posted: 27 January 2016 08:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   

   
 
jellybean
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I'm curious, have any of you gone to the Provo open house, or any others, since leaving the church?
 
I've noticed a lot of posts shared by members encouraging people to attend, but interestingly it seems that maybe they aren't getting the turn out they expected? The posts being shared from the temple page sound like tickets are easy to get and the stand by line isn't long if you don't have a ticket. 
 
Have you been? Was it crowded? Was it wierd to go in a temple (Provo or otherwise) after leaving?


   


Posted: 27 January 2016 09:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]   

   
 
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I don't think I could go inside a mormon temple again. The memories of the satanic practices experienced there are just too creepy. 

   


Posted: 27 January 2016 01:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]   

   
 
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I went to the open house of the new temple in Calgary, Alberta. All tours were scheduled in advance. They had a number to call and reserve a spot. You were encouraged to arrive 15 minutes prior to the appointed time. Since it's right next to the stake center, there was plenty of waiting area. The tour started with a video in one of the triple rooms (maybe the primary room?) then you were escorted to another exit which faced the temple. The pathway from the stake center to the temple was completely covered by portable awnings. Before entering the temple, white cloth shoe covers were supplied.

It was so organized and orchestrated, the North Koreans would have been envious of the efficiency. And it was completely lifeless and soulless, with Stepford guides watching over you every step of the way. It was creepy, everyone dressed in white, same plastic smiles on their faces, standing in the middle of the hallways so you couldn't go the wrong way (not to mention the curiously shoddy workmanship I saw inside). The explanations provided by the guides were minimal. When it was done, everyone was escorted back to the stake center and into the "cultural hall" (for god's sake, it's a fncking gymnasium!) where there were... REFRESHMENTS! Yay, punch and cookies. Can't have a mormon get together without carbohydrates! More designated people to answere questions were in the gym, but they weren't dressed in white. Instead, they had special name tags made for the occasion.
 
Architecturally speaking, I was not impressed. It's a big white phallic symbol on the outside with clean lines and no imagination whatsoever in the design. At least the new Provo one looks somewhat interesting from the outside. Inside, it was spartan, to say the least. None of the ornateness of the old Utah temples, none of the architectural nuances to make the building memorable. Of course there are a few nods to local content in the artwork, but really, find me a noteworthy difference between the Toronto, Denver, Seattle or Calgary temples...  It's just a supersized McTemple. I've been to a small temple (Edmonton) and really, make the rooms bigger and add a cafeteria and there you have it.
 
They did claim to have 100,000 visitors, but I can't help but wonder how many believers went more than once. I think my wife went at least twice. It was kind of like the "meet the mormons" movie in that the largely LDS masses went in droves and sometimes two or three times, dragging unsuspecting friends and neighbors along.
 
It's very indicative of mormonism in general. After all, the mormon god is a god of order. Everything is laid out, no thinking required. 
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Posted: 27 January 2016 01:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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I'm with Winyan: going back into an LDS temple is too aversive for me, just too damn creepy. I attended an open house years ago at a temple in another state. It creeped me out. (I only went as an appeasement to my future ex-spouse. The appeasement wasn't very effective.)
 
If you go please let us know how it affected you. I'm supposing that it would be improper to leave "postmormon.org" as graffiti under one of the white and delightsome chairs. 


   


Posted: 27 January 2016 01:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]   

   
 
jellybean
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I haven't been to one, but the Provo has me more curious, wondering how they changed it from the tabernacle (that place wasn't huge after all). Of course, I've seen almost all of it online already. LOL. I do wonder if it would be creepy to go back in, or if I would get a case of the giggles at how totally insane it all is. 

   


Posted: 27 January 2016 09:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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jellybean:
I haven't been to one, but the Provo has me more curious, wondering how they changed it from the tabernacle (that place wasn't huge after all). Of course, I've seen almost all of it online already. LOL. I do wonder if it would be creepy to go back in, or if I would get a case of the giggles at how totally insane it all is.
 
 I once had an experience that I had a problem describing, in terms of coming up with an introductory 'title'.  I finally settled on "The time I was in awe of her determined stupidity."  If I were to go through a temple again, I'm sure I'd be tempted to borrow my old creation, changing only the "her" to "their".
 
I would love to see a comedy-driven movie about the pre-1990 sessions v. the post-1990 sessions, and how they came to make the changes.  I would love for Bruce Dern to play an apostle opposed to the changes, and Bob Newhart as an apostle in favor of the changes.  
 
What other actors are available to play the Fossil 15?  Remember, I'm thinking comedy! 
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Posted: 28 January 2016 01:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]   

   
 
Free2Live
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Elder OldDog:
jellybean:
I haven't been to one, but the Provo has me more curious, wondering how they changed it from the tabernacle (that place wasn't huge after all). Of course, I've seen almost all of it online already. LOL. I do wonder if it would be creepy to go back in, or if I would get a case of the giggles at how totally insane it all is.
 
 I once had an experience that I had a problem describing, in terms of coming up with an introductory 'title'.  I finally settled on "The time I was in awe of her determined stupidity."  If I were to go through a temple again, I'm sure I'd be tempted to borrow my old creation, changing only the "her" to "their".
 
I would love to see a comedy-driven movie about the pre-1990 sessions v. the post-1990 sessions, and how they came to make the changes.  I would love for Bruce Dern to play an apostle opposed to the changes, and Bob Newhart as an apostle in favor of the changes.  
 
What other actors are available to play the Fossil 15?  Remember, I'm thinking comedy! 
 
 How about a scene with Monty Python and crew where apparitions are hanging out saying I am not dead! Be sure to include a segment entitled In Search Of the Holy of Holies. The Q15 threatening slashing and gashing while retorting you will be. In the final cut the white knighted characters saying come back here we will back bite you to death.
 
 Signature
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Posted: 28 January 2016 05:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]   

   
 
Hank
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I've been to temples in Toronto, Palmyra, Columbus, Jordan River, Draoer and Salt Lake. Having once been in the trades, I was always impressed how good the workmanship was on everything, right down to the small details no one sees unless they're close (like the wallpaper and trim you see as you're standing at the holy urinal). Even the baby temples in Palmyra and Columbus (with very few attendees) were very well built. They sink a lot of cash into these modern day castles.
 
Castles. That brings me to one of the reasons I think people go to the open houses. Let's face it, American architecture is rather boring. Go to Europe and even some poor parts of the world, and you'll see incredible buildings which almost anyone can access and view. They are feasts for the eyes and the imagination. In the US and many other parts of the world, Mormon temples are the closest thing to a castle that many will see in their lifetimes.
 
The other reason is curiosity to see the building in which those secret rituals are performed. Where do they sacrafice the goats anyways?
 
I have no interest in touring the Provo temple. If you've been in one, you've pretty much seen them all (except for the SLC temple, everyone who can should experience it- I couldn't stop laughing inside at the 95 year old guy who played Adam and talked about procreation). The SLC murals are a feast for the eyes from the art perspective.
 
 
Sidenote: A video tour of the FLDS temple in Texas was interesting. In the sealing area there was a bed with many chairs around it. Basically after being sealed, the new happy couple go at it on the bed in front of a studio audience of righteous penishood (thanks maynard) holders. Who needs pornos if you're FLDS?!
 


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 06:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]   

   
 
Nephi
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Wonder why Provo gets a remade tabernacle but Brigham City, with a similar tabernacle, got an entirely new Boyd KKK Packer Memorial Temple?
 
They could jazz up the new ones by painting murals on the walls like the old buildings have/had. The dinosaurs painted on the walls were always interesting to look at in SLC and Manti.
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Posted: 28 January 2016 06:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]   

   
 
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Celestial Wedgie
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FreeLive:
Elder OldDog:
jellybean:
I haven't been to one, but the Provo has me more curious, wondering how they changed it from the tabernacle (that place wasn't huge after all). Of course, I've seen almost all of it online already. LOL. I do wonder if it would be creepy to go back in, or if I would get a case of the giggles at how totally insane it all is.
 
 I once had an experience that I had a problem describing, in terms of coming up with an introductory 'title'.  I finally settled on "The time I was in awe of her determined stupidity."  If I were to go through a temple again, I'm sure I'd be tempted to borrow my old creation, changing only the "her" to "their".
 
I would love to see a comedy-driven movie about the pre-1990 sessions v. the post-1990 sessions, and how they came to make the changes.  I would love for Bruce Dern to play an apostle opposed to the changes, and Bob Newhart as an apostle in favor of the changes.  
 
What other actors are available to play the Fossil 15?  Remember, I'm thinking comedy! 
 
 How about a scene with Monty Python and crew where apparitions are hanging out saying I am not dead! Be sure to include a segment entitled In Search Of the Holy of Holies. The Q15 threatening slashing and gashing while retorting you will be. In the final cut the white knighted characters saying come back here we will back bite you to death.
 
 
    


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 12:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]   

   
 
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Matter Unorganized
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Hank:
I've been to temples in Toronto, Palmyra, Columbus, Jordan River, Draoer and Salt Lake. Having once been in the trades, I was always impressed how good the workmanship was on everything, right down to the small details no one sees unless they're close (like the wallpaper and trim you see as you're standing at the holy urinal). Even the baby temples in Palmyra and Columbus (with very few attendees) were very well built. They sink a lot of cash into these modern day castles.
 
Castles. That brings me to one of the reasons I think people go to the open houses. Let's face it, American architecture is rather boring. Go to Europe and even some poor parts of the world, and you'll see incredible buildings which almost anyone can access and view. They are feasts for the eyes and the imagination. In the US and many other parts of the world, Mormon temples are the closest thing to a castle that many will see in their lifetimes.
 
The other reason is curiosity to see the building in which those secret rituals are performed. Where do they sacrafice the goats anyways?
 
I have no interest in touring the Provo temple. If you've been in one, you've pretty much seen them all (except for the SLC temple, everyone who can should experience it- I couldn't stop laughing inside at the 95 year old guy who played Adam and talked about procreation). The SLC murals are a feast for the eyes from the art perspective.
 
 
Sidenote: A video tour of the FLDS temple in Texas was interesting. In the sealing area there was a bed with many chairs around it. Basically after being sealed, the new happy couple go at it on the bed in front of a studio audience of righteous penishood (thanks maynard) holders. Who needs pornos if you're FLDS?!
 
 
Hank, this had been my experience with temples as well, so I was surprised when the workmanship wasn't up to snuff in Calgary. There was a stair rail that couldn't have supported an anorexic jockey. It wobbled and creaked if it was grabbed - not good! Also, the baptistry wasn't complete yet and there was a lot of exposed plywood, as well as behind one of the altars (I apparently wasn't supposed to walk on that side of the altar!) which I imagine would have been completed prior to the dedication, and I hope they fixed the railing as well. And I had to wonder, why use cold, white fluorescent lighting?
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Posted: 28 January 2016 12:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]   

   
 
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Nephi:
Wonder why Provo gets a remade tabernacle but Brigham City, with a similar tabernacle, got an entirely new Boyd KKK Packer Memorial Temple?
 
They could jazz up the new ones by painting murals on the walls like the old buildings have/had. The dinosaurs painted on the walls were always interesting to look at in SLC and Manti.
 
The old Provo tabernacle was gutted by fire. I guess ol' Boyd (or one of his progeny) didn't prophetically think of employing this resourceful strategy on the Brigham City tabernacle prior to the announcement of his memorial temple.
 
Perhaps Boyd put the kibosh on the tabernacle idea, not wanting an old run-down building to remind people of him. Or maybe it looked too much like a factory...
 
 
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You’re like the Gandhi of postmo. - Lloyd Dobler


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 03:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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Be sure and look for the "all-seeing eye" (check the back of a 1 dollar bill for a facsimile) carved or painted on "Celestial Room" furniture/lamps/decorations.
 
Do it clandestinely....don't drive the tour guides crazy.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 28 January 2016 08:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]   

   
 
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Zelph the White
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I will be going to the Provo City Center open house in 3 weeks. I'll let you know if there is anything interesting to report. My interest stems from the fact that it used to by my "stake center" if you will. We would have meetings there for my BYU stake on occasion and I always liked the building. 
 
I did the Ogden open house after leaving. It felt odd in that I would never be back inside it again. And I had been inside it before the renovation as a TBM. But it wasn't totally weird. I am just fascinated by the whole temple thing, including the creepy parts. I remember this Ogden visit sparking a conversation with a family member who came with, who didn't know of my apostasy and inactivity at the time. We began discussing what the possible sources of the various hand positions for the signs of the priesthood were. I wished at the time that I could discuss the stuff I learned from Richard Packham's website/speeches/podcasts about that but alas I kept it a secret that I knew the reason for the hand positions.


   


Posted: 29 January 2016 04:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]   

   
 
Hank
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Matter Unorganized:
Hank:
I've been to temples in Toronto, Palmyra, Columbus, Jordan River, Draoer and Salt Lake. Having once been in the trades, I was always impressed how good the workmanship was on everything, right down to the small details no one sees unless they're close (like the wallpaper and trim you see as you're standing at the holy urinal). Even the baby temples in Palmyra and Columbus (with very few attendees) were very well built. They sink a lot of cash into these modern day castles.
 
Castles. That brings me to one of the reasons I think people go to the open houses. Let's face it, American architecture is rather boring. Go to Europe and even some poor parts of the world, and you'll see incredible buildings which almost anyone can access and view. They are feasts for the eyes and the imagination. In the US and many other parts of the world, Mormon temples are the closest thing to a castle that many will see in their lifetimes.
 
The other reason is curiosity to see the building in which those secret rituals are performed. Where do they sacrafice the goats anyways?
 
I have no interest in touring the Provo temple. If you've been in one, you've pretty much seen them all (except for the SLC temple, everyone who can should experience it- I couldn't stop laughing inside at the 95 year old guy who played Adam and talked about procreation). The SLC murals are a feast for the eyes from the art perspective.
 
 
Sidenote: A video tour of the FLDS temple in Texas was interesting. In the sealing area there was a bed with many chairs around it. Basically after being sealed, the new happy couple go at it on the bed in front of a studio audience of righteous penishood (thanks maynard) holders. Who needs pornos if you're FLDS?!
 
 
Hank, this had been my experience with temples as well, so I was surprised when the workmanship wasn't up to snuff in Calgary. There was a stair rail that couldn't have supported an anorexic jockey. It wobbled and creaked if it was grabbed - not good! Also, the baptistry wasn't complete yet and there was a lot of exposed plywood, as well as behind one of the altars (I apparently wasn't supposed to walk on that side of the altar!) which I imagine would have been completed prior to the dedication, and I hope they fixed the railing as well. And I had to wonder, why use cold, white fluorescent lighting?
 
 Sounds like the building simply wasn't finished at the time. Seems like baptistries are the last thing completed (based on stories I've heard). The pieces probably don't come with assembly instructions as to how to properly position the oxen and how to attach a hot tub to their backs. 


   


Posted: 29 January 2016 05:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]   

   
 
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NickB
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Toured the Jordan River Temple during its open house. Bland architecture. Pastels. Bland furnishings. Bland lighting. Every design decision had to have been made by a person with way too much Valium in their blood. And what really cracked me up was all the reverential Ooohs and Ahhhs from people admiring the cafeteria/kitchen area. I wanted to scream at them, "It's just a cafeteria! You act like you're in the Louvre! That's crazy!" But I didn't.
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“it is always good to keep in mind just because something is printed on paper, appears on the internet, is frequently repeated or has a powerful group of followers doesn’t make it true”.
Dieter F. Uchtdorf At CES


   


Posted: 30 January 2016 07:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]   

   
 
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Morethanmo
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LOL I just saw a FB post on my friend's feed from lds.net saying that you don't need tickets to come to the Provo temple open house. I guess they couldn't even give them away.
 
Sadly, plenty have had the opportunity to see the temple's strip tease and they are now in search of more thrilling entertainment. Can't blame them. I just wish the producers would take a hint.
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__________________________________________

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________


   


Posted: 30 January 2016 09:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]   

   
 
jellybean
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I saw a few of those same posts last night too! And the missionaries have been trying to come by pushing tickets as well. Honestly, I am surprised that this one isn't getting more attention, only because the building was well known in the community before it became a temple... but maybe that's just it. A lot of people were disappointed that it was no longer going to be just a tabernacle, and that it would be cut off from the community as a temple. 

   


Posted: 30 January 2016 11:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]   

   
 
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Elder OldDog
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Growing up in Vegas, the trip to St. George and back was an all day trip.  The 'short cut' through the virgin river canyon did not exist and one had a long detour through an Indian reservation.  
 
On a clear freeway, one could reach the SLC temple from Provo in under an hour, right? In total, how many temples could a Provo-ite reach in an hour? 
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Posted: 31 January 2016 03:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]   

   
 
The Big Man
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I went to the Provo open house last night. It's a beautiful building, and as mentioned earlier, the workmanship in creating the building was exceedingly fine. I tried to find a seam in the deeply embossed wallpaper, and they just can't be seen.
 
The testimonies of the temple in the introduction video seemed awkward. The video said that sealings were the highest ordinance performed in the temple. I thought, "maybe in this temple they are the highest". The video and the poster descriptions made it clear that the marriage ordinances were for a man and a woman, spelled out on the posters in English and Spanish.
 
I left thinking about those on the margins of the magical temple narrative, those that never have the opportunity to marry, or don't wish to marry someone of the opposite sex, and how they felt about the open house. I felt sorry for my own wife, her magical narrative derailed by my choices, and secretly considered if I would want the magical narrative with her even if it was real. She can be devastatingly emotionally abusive, and the church is one of her bully pulpits. Realizing this appears to be beyond her mortal capacity, with many self help videos I watch saying "these people are untreatable and don't get better, best make plans to get away and limit contact".


   


Posted: 31 January 2016 09:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]   

   
 
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Morethanmo
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The Big Man:
I went to the Provo open house last night. It's a beautiful building, and as mentioned earlier, the workmanship in creating the building was exceedingly fine. I tried to find a seam in the deeply embossed wallpaper, and they just can't be seen.
 
The testimonies of the temple in the introduction video seemed awkward. The video said that sealings were the highest ordinance performed in the temple. I thought, "maybe in this temple they are the highest". The video and the poster descriptions made it clear that the marriage ordinances were for a man and a woman, spelled out on the posters in English and Spanish.
 
I left thinking about those on the margins of the magical temple narrative, those that never have the opportunity to marry, or don't wish to marry someone of the opposite sex, and how they felt about the open house. I felt sorry for my own wife, her magical narrative derailed by my choices, and secretly considered if I would want the magical narrative with her even if it was real. She can be devastatingly emotionally abusive, and the church is one of her bully pulpits. Realizing this appears to be beyond her mortal capacity, with many self help videos I watch saying "these people are untreatable and don't get better, best make plans to get away and limit contact".
 
I wanted to respond to your post, but I want it to be clear that I am expressing my opinion from personal experience, not necessarily as an explanation for what is really happening in your life.
 
It's interesting to read your post as a woman who almost bought into that narrative. I came from a family that precisely followed the church in one specific and painful regard: appearances are everything. 
 
It doesn't matter how your family feels or what they truly need, as long as they have the appearance of happiness and strength. It is the need to perpetuate the façade that breeds emotional and spiritual abuse. 
 
IMVHO-- If there is no safe manner in which to save your relationship, please save yourself. 
 Signature
__________________________________________

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
~Epicurus
__________________________________________


   


Posted: 31 January 2016 02:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]   

   
 
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Tessa
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If they're having trouble getting folks to visit...maybe enough BYU students have pulled back, and don't want the "sales-pitch" that the old Tabernacle is currently promoting.
 
Maybe, just maybe, it's also a rebellion against it being made into a Temple, after the fire.
 
Their silent protest is heard, loud and clear.  
 
They had memories of dances and fun...now it's a drudge.
 
The Provo Temple up on the hill, will feel the drop-off. 
 Signature
”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin


   


Posted: 10 February 2016 02:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]   

   
 
Joycee
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Hi folks, it's been awhile.   As much as I would love it if they were having problems filling tours, unfortunately I can personally report it's pretty crazy around there most of the time.  I have to drive by in order to go to the liquor store (yup, you can see good ol' Moroni from the store, but of course he is facing the other way, lol) and it's nuts.  
 
I have so many fond memories of that building.  My grandmother absolutely loved going to the free concerts there and I would attend with her as a young child (yup, even when it was July and the A/C either didn't work or they didn't have one).  I wanted to see it one last time, but then the church came out with all that bs about gays and I just couldn't do it.  If I had to sit through that propoganda video they show in the beginning I'm afraid I just might punch someone.  That's OK though, I have my memories and maybe that's for the best.  Glad to see you all are doing well.  Keep up the good work Postmo.  


   


Posted: 10 February 2016 03:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]   

   
 
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WinstonSmith
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We passed through Provo last week and DW wanted to go through the open house---I obliged.
 
I don't have any sourced facts, but my area of expertise leads me to believe the following after touring the temple. Even when ignoring the historical preservation cost of that building, the cost per square foot of the new Provo Temple is significantly higher than other temples.
 
From an institutional stand point, I could care less how much they spend on a building. However, anyone that accepts the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament should be appauled the any church would spend this kind of money on a building in the name of Jesus, when such horrible poverty exists in this world.
 
Hypothetically speaking, if people really needed saving ordinances performed in a temple, would Jesus require such gawdy edifices (buildings of costly appearal)? Something tells me that a simple, inexpensive, humble, dedicated building would suffice.
 
In lieu of tithing, I will continue to give to charities (with transperant accounting) helping the needy. Again hypothetically speaking, if I were one day to stand before the Mormon God, and I am condemmed for helping the poor in lieu of a rich institutuion building great and spacious buildings, like the Mormon Church; I will gladly give their god the middle finger and happily walk to Hell! 
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“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”  -Marcus Aurelius


   


            
 
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