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Chili Kingdom Halls displaying country's flag
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offlineCacky
Chili Kingdom Halls displaying country's flag
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Oct 3 14 8:07 AM
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If you go to Cedar's blog (just google it), there is an article about how some kingdom halls in Chili are displaying the country's flag. There is a national holiday and all public buildings are supposed to display the flag or face a fine. The article states that headquarters (Bethel) told the congregations there that it is up to them to display the flag or pay the fine, but Bethel won't pay the fine for not displaying, so some congregations are displaying it. Just think how that would make the jw kids feel, when they have to go to school and not salute the flag, then their cong displays the flag like that. What hypocracy.
status onlineKBG
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Hypacrites yes. Wonder how it makes the congregations feel being left out in the cold by the Miscreant Slave.
status onlineinventor
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I saw this too. I really wish I could show it to my family, I'd like to see what they'd say.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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I don't do face book, internet or even have a clue as to blog. I am however interested in this Chili thing taking place.
Is it possible for you to post more information for my research?
Thanks, Lin.
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Linda, here is the link to Cedar's blog over at jwsurvey.
He has a good write up about the Chili flag.
status offlineCee Cee
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The WTBTS IS so hypocritical...[remember Ray Franz' description of Mexican brothers paying for military cards although they never joined?]
Stupidly, it seems it never occured to them to either (1) change the date of the meeting from that of that particular patriotic holiday to some other day of the week or (2) move the place of the meeting to private dwellings rather than put up flags that were supposedly so 'unholy'? Nuts.
Cee Cee
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Yoga is bad for you?
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offlinesarahkate
Yoga is bad for you?
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Lol clients would find out when he was working so that they could AVOID him!! hide under chair Hamster walk http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2715517/Jehovah-s-Witness-sacked-fitness-coach-warning-gym-member-yoga-let-evil-body-wins-payout-unfair-dismissal.html
Sarahkate xx
status offlinedbat
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This is classic ... Saw this earlier and logged in here to post the story.
Going the gym is painful enough without getting a good old bible bashing on top.
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Hi dbat how are you? x
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status offlineJourney
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I think I'd get a kick out of this for maybe 3 minutes. Then I'd feel like he was a nutcase. The JWs I knew back when would never have told people that. Bad approach. So, to me he sounds like an extremist. AND, if he was doing that to me, I'd quit the gym and tell them I didn't feel safe there anymore. Then I'd be outta there.
Janet
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I'm all good thanks ... Just popping in to catch up and see how everyone is doing.
How are you?
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I'm doing good! Penny now has 2 boys and Jemima has a girl............only found that out through the grapevine though! Take care dbat! x
Sarahkate xx
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Lol!! that'd be just my luck to get him for a yoga teacher smiley: ohwell
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlinemytruth
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Open your mind to let the evil in! And by that they mean ,your very own thoughts lol
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Maybe he thought it was a gym FOR virgins? Just saying!!!! haha
Sarah ... have you seen your grandies?
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinematitalica
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I'm surprised a jw would be allowed to work as a fitness coach in a gym seeing as how he would be working closely with women.
status offlinecalminthestorm
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I have found yoga to be a spiritual and physical lifesaver. This organization is ridiculous and it amazes me how they still get people to join! Nice to see everybody again!
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hi AndriaSyxx lol no these are not my grandchildren but they are my husbands neices kids but no we havent seen them or even know their names :-(
Sarahkate xx
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Frederick (Rick) McLean featured on CNN 'The Hunt'
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offlinebirdwoman2
Frederick (Rick) McLean featured on CNN 'The Hunt'
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This aired this past Sunday on 'The Hunt with John Walsh'.
McLean is out there somewhere - let's hope that this show will lead to him being exposed and located.
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I was going to watch that show, but forgot it wa on. Scum like that should just be shot.
status offlinecangie
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My neighbor watched this, and mentioned it to me. It led to a very good discussion of the pedophile issue among the JW's, as I was able to talk about the "2-witness rule", not reporting the crime to the police, and how the judicial committee mishandles the acquiring of information by victims. I appreciate it Bird, that you posted it so the rest of us could see it. Thank-you
status offlineCacky
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Yes, I believe he's on the FBI's ten most wanted list.
status offlineApostateProud
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What a creep! So many of the elders gave off the creepiest vibes. I hated every time they hugged me. I hope this sicko is caught!
status offline3d808
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I sure hope he is caught !! His brother was in the congregation that shared our hall. So creepy that I knew this guy when I was a kid. My friends father was good friends with his brother.
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Would/could the jw's spread a pandemic?
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offlinematitalica
Would/could the jw's spread a pandemic?
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Some jw's are just fanatical enough, the governing boobies are now living in a very seclude gated compound hoarding money like there's no tomorrow. Do you think they would be capable of purposefully contracting a disease like ebola and taking it to other countries to try to wipe out populations so they can then gain more converts or actually think they can kick start jarmageddon?
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I personally don't think the GB would dare to do something on that scale if only because such an attack could be traced back to them. Delusional they might be, but they're not QUITE as delusional as the doomsday cult in Japan who let loose sarin gas on the subway. My personal fear is more along the lines of a Jonestown disaster if the GB's ship starts going down: mass muder/suicide. JWs seem more inclined to martyr themselves by refusing blood transfusions than to harm other people. On the other hand, there are a LOT of mentally unhinged JWs who might take it upon themselves to do something.
Not all who wander are lost.- J.R.R. Tolkein
status offlineKefka6
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I agree with sg, the GB are fanatics with a god complex( with a little attention whore mixed in there) but they're not stupid, rhe way things are now I could see them segregating themselves like other cults in the best of cases and in the worst going the way of Jonestown... Let's hope that doesn't happen
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"The key to wisdom is this -- constant and frequent questioning ... for by doubting we are led to question and by questioning we arrive at the truth." -Peter Abelard
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Sexuality
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offline3d808
Sexuality
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Hello everyone, I havenʻt been on here in awhile. Although I am not questioning my own sexuality I came across this amazing video today I wanted to share. I also wanted to say thanks to Sam,Rhonda,Tim,Cj,Valerie,Punkie and the many others on here that have helped me so much in my journey of recovery. Love you all, Derek
status offlinewoohoo
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That was very moving. Thank you for sharing.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Derek ... that was a very VERY cleverly written movie! It's something kids should be shown!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinePauley4
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That was a good clip. Thank you for posting it.
I was in a situation some what similar back in the late 90s. Although, one's sexual preference wasn't as salient as it is in this film; one's sexuality was generally "known." It was a telemarketing call center, and the owner of the company was gay, and most of the floor supervisors were gay. Frankly, gay people had more status. It was a good experience for me, as being one of JWs, we were taught that homosexuality is wrong. Which also meant that I believed what they told me. I was "unlearning" what they taught me.
It appears that today the anti-homosexuality sentiment is becoming more institutionalized, rather than people openly showing hostility to someone because they are gay. I think this has to do with our government being too influence by conservative religion; and that lack of dialogue in our society with regard to sex and sexuality, particularly homosexuality. People do not like to discuss things on a deeper level. This is also true with race and racism. We don't discuss racism; in fact if you want to discuss racism or homosexuality, I mean "really" discuss it, you might be labeled a racist or homophobic--which could then turn into you being attacked.
On the bright side, we do, at least presently, live in an open society with regard to knowledge, so that one can still participate in their own learning and development with regard to these areas.
status offlineLocutus
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Thanks Derek,
That got pretty uncomfortable for me, given my background and experiences.
For me, it's all about what expectations we impose on the kids. If there is no acceptance of who they are or what they are feeling, then tragedy can follow. So many parents have decided what their kid will be, before they have even met them. That is the big mistake. That big mistake often comes from religious authority, and is accepted without thought by many people. The truth is that people are born as 'who they are'. Many are not willing to be conformed by authority, to become what the parents want them to be.
For instance: I was born a 3rd generation JW from an exclusive JW family (strong in the truth.. ) When the faith didn't 'take', their behaviour was much the same as shown in your video. To be the' problem child', argued about and discussed as if not in the room.. while they try to bend you into the mould that they have decided you will fit. There is nothing more awful for an upset child than to have parents discuss about them within their hearing range.
Yes, I get it.
The rejection and hatred imposed by some people of faith, sanctioned by their religion, upon their own children.. it just boggles my mind.
However, I think that the fact that we have risen far enough over these things to understand and identify them says quite a lot about us as a community, doesn't it?
Cheers.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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It's been some time since reading and posting.
Personally, I don't care what sexual favor you prefer and hope not being judgmental. If, should anyone want telling me my sexual belief its to be denied because it differs from someone else - there might be a problem because I want accepting that we all just wanting getting along as long as no one wants to shot my sorry ass for having a disagreement.
Trying to catch up on things...it's been interesting. Love, Lin and John
Going to spend time 'surfing' because today is still cold and nasty for working outside and I'm not interested in working with cleaning insidesmiley: pimpsmiley: eyes
Whether or not any of us are acknowledged...know that everyone is loved for having the courage in sharing...although we may not always share on every forum.
We are all important ...something some of us never learned with growing up in that cult; that our life mattered when they tell us how we don't matter - according to their religious belief.
I also understand not all members are 'born-in' and that doesn't matter because they find us for hopefully find recovery from the hatred because of their association with that hate of JW.
Thanks Ronnie and others that help keep this site alive.
status offlineauth
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I saw that video some time ago.
Gay children growing up within the Watchtower organization and within generally anti-gay society will face repression and the risk of believing a lot of myths about themselves.
The organization's whole view of homosexuality is wrongheaded. It is not an 'act' any more than being 'straight' is an act. A straight person can abstain from sexual intercourse and not turn gay. He or she would simply be a straight person who's not sexually active. Then is it reasonable to think that a gay person who's not sexually active ceases to be gay? Yet the organization defines homosexuality in such that actually denies the reality of the variety of human sexuality. They tell young gay witnesses that if they don't 'act' on it they're not gay and in doing so actually suggest that they need to act, in another sense of the word, UNTIL THEY DIE. This is tremendously damaging because the individual who's indoctrinated in that way can become trapped in a vortex of guilt.
It is the disconnect between the reality of being gay and the organization's myth that leaves a gay person within the organization with nowhere to turn. In a sense, it's only peripherally about sex. Abstaining from intimacy (and in JW land this could be merely amorous touching) with someone to whom they're attracted will not solve the core problem a gay witness has. The problem is that they're attracted in the first place and that's what they'll have to fix in order to 'please Jehovah' who knows what they're thinking. Despite their sincerity, Jehovah won't give a **** about helping them change and they'll fail to 'fix' themselves. A thoroughly indoctrinated witness will not think that it's because Jehovah doesn't exist or doesn't care that they're gay. They'll think it's because they're already doomed.
Now if heterosexual witnesses were expected to feel worthy of death whenever they thought of marriage, children, a loving mate or that sexy college classmate they'd soon find themselves on the brink of a nervous breakdown. Yet this is what gay witnesses are expected to do for a lifetime because as long as they don't touch another gay person that likes them they're not gay (sarcasm). Just like other witnesses they're not supposed to masturbate or view any sexually suggestive material. They should either marry someone they'd rather not marry or remain celibate while going to meetings and out in field service (to recruit others into their hell) until they die. These are the totally unrealistic expectations of a crazy gerontocracy that seems to deny the very reality of human emotion.
Yeah, yeah, the 'Bible says'. The Bible says quite a few things that would be considered batshit insane by today's standards. It condones slavery (Leviticus 25:44), that's a no-no. It invites parents to stone disobedient children (Deuteronomy 21:18-21), hello child abuse conviction and life in prison. It commands that a virgin be sold to her rapist (Deuteronomy 22:28-29), WTF! The genocidal, homophobic and misogynistic nature of some of the Bible's content betrays those parts as the product of particularly power-hungry and insecure heterosexual men rather than any all-powerful deity. Oh, I forgot. We're not 'under the law'. Well show me where Jesus, who spent all his time with twelve men kissing them and washing their feet, said anything against homosexuality. And if you point out where he said 'the law' is still in effect then let the child stoning and rapist marrying commence.
LOL. It would be funny if so many people didn't take it so very seriously a few millennia later.
The fact that modern English doesn't have a consistent neuter gender whereas Old English does might say something about where society started and where it ended up. I haven't researched it, just speculation. Old English, a language we wouldn't recognize, had three grammatical genders, masculine, feminine, and neuter. The word neuter has a similar sense to neutral. That is, neither one nor the other. Maybe their 'pagan' worldview allowed for that and it was reflected in language. Now there is little middle ground. It's all about boxes and opposition. A JW 'sister' can't teach, only 'brothers' can take they lead, gays can't exist at all.
I encourage any JW who's laboring under these constraints, is doubting their validity, and stumbled on this post, to take it as a starting point for exploration.
Especially if you're gay, the right to exist is the best gift you can give yourself. You don't have to become a different person according to any new label.
Just come to know that your existence is not conditional on being what you are not. That is fallacious ... and hellacious. :)
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
Last Edited By: auth Aug 22 14 11:55 AM. Edited 3 times.
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status offlineFiguringitout20
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Sep 13 14 10:08 PM
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Hi everyone. I'm sorry I haven't posted on thIs site for a little while. Thank you so much for all of the thoughtful responses above. I was feeling particularly down the day I started this chain. I'm generally comfortable with not knowing what the future holds, but I have my ups and downs. All in all not knowing is better than.having an org dictate to me everything I should think.
I also question everything from all sides. I have a ton of respect and interest in science, but I'm not convinced that science can 100% conclusively prove there is no God. I think there are some good theories, but perhaps there is always room for doubt. That being said, I am going to start reading some of the above mentioned books and see where it leads me.
Thank you again. Love you all!
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The most fantastic thing about being out of the borg Figgy ... is that you CAN actually think for yourself and you CAN change your mind, your life and your beliefs as often as you wish!
I've swung from not believing in the jdub religious indoctrination as in didn't believe in their Jehovah ............... to believing there 'must be something' ....... and have now landed in the 'who really cares ....' belief system. I don't need a belief system in order to live my life anymore ...... but I guess there was a whole lot of time where I thought I 'should' have a belief system of some kind or other, because I was raised to believe that having a belief system was the only way to live. It's not!
Having younger kids is eye opening when it comes to explaining belief ... be it religious belief or not. They have such a refreshing approach to belief .........
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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I've always believed there must be a God, but recently I started letting my mind ponder the idea that perhaps there is no God. A while back someone here posted something to the effect that either the existence or nonexistence of God is amazing. I haven't been able to quit thinking about that simple, but powerful statement. It is incredible if life originated with no master creator. But it's also amazing to think God could be existent but just sitting back and not fixing huge problems. I find it depressing to think there is no God, because that means there's no future hope. I don't need an exact hope (i.e. petting lions), but I would like to think there is something else after thIs life. I don't consider myself generally all that spiritual and I never pray, but today I found myself asking for proof that God existed. Then I looked up and the sky was stunning with the sun shining behind some clouds. I know it sounds crazy, but I wondered if somehow that was a sign. However, at this point I'm still quite undecided and so would describe myself as agnostic. I told my husband that today and I think it surprised him. He was never raised in a religion, but he believes in God and the devil and he believes our family's souls will somehow continue on together in the afterlife. I find it sad that I just don't know. Feeling down today. :( I know there are a lot of atheists here and I do wonder how you cope.
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The one thing we used to ask was 'what is the purpose of life?'
This actually is a loaded question because it implies that someone has a value for that purpose ie God for instance.
It's a bitter pill to swallow but I just look forward to things I want to achieve....like my novel being published.
Otherwise...you're right......life is hopeless.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
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I find it depressing to think there is no God, because that means there's no future hope. I don't need an exact hope (i.e. petting lions), but I would like to think there is something else after thIs life.
Thats the great thing about not 'knowing' Fig..........you actually can have hope with or without the 'god' part
That has been one of the things I have found most freeing.........being able to say 'I don't know'!! Because that opens up the possibility that there is something more to life than I know about at this time........I no longer have to 'believe' or 'discount' anything I don't wish to!!
What will be will be..........and my belief (or lack of it) will have absolutely no bearing on the eventual outcome.....so it's all just a big adventure smiley: smile
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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For me, Jehovah was the winning lottery ticket. I spent all my money trying to win. I know that all kingdom lottery tickets are losers. I am now much happier living within my means.
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I've had a few experiences that have confirmed to me that there is an afterlife.
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I've had experiences that would be described as mystical. I felt the power of Christ, and some other weird things. I don't know if it's real. I go back and forth in my head about the evidence for, and against it. It hasn't gotten easier. I contine to read the bible, upanishads, Sufism, and various scriptures. As well as atheistic books. I'm more of a seeker then a joiner. When I was a kid I watched the x files, it was so amazing to me, and ever since then I've been interested in the paranormal.
I guess I try to take refuge in that if I'm a good person that's all that matters.
Last Edited By: inventor Sep 3 14 11:43 AM. Edited 2 times.
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Cacky wrote:
I've had a few experiences that have confirmed to me that there is an afterlife.
Could you please tell me what they are? I'm not interested in judging, but learning.
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Cacky, I have too. I am rather reserved about telling them, because I don't want to discuss them. I just like to bask in them, myself. I may write them up someday.
My husband has never had any experiences like that, but he and I are very close, and he hears my experiences and he really knows me, better than anyone ever has, and my experiences are, to him, as though they are his too. But telling other people publicly, that's harder, because to me they are beautiful experiences that no one can damage, but I don't want to have anyone try to shoot down my experiences. Also, putting them down in words, somehow I cannot add the beauty, the flow, the heart passion and joy of it all.
Journey
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About a week after my mom died, I was falling asleep, covered up with a sheet. Something tugged on my sheet and exposed my big toe. I looked around to see if one of the pets had done it, but they were no where around. I just had this feeling it was my mom, I almost heard her in my head saying, "I'm off now." So I said, "Ok, bye Mom. Catch up with you later." My sister, it turns out, had the same experience of something tugging at her blanket when she was falling asleep, and, as I had done, looked around to see if it was one of the cats, but no, none were around. It happened approximately the same time mine happened. Also, I grew up in haunted house. It would take a long time to write all the stuff about that house and I have carpal tunnel syndrome, so typing long stuff is hard for me. The spirit, or creature from another dimension, or whatever it was, was not very nice to kids, liked to scare them. My dad still lives in the house and me and my sister both say we'd not spend the night there. It was a scary childhood with that stuff going on.
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Wow, it's powerful to me that your sister had the same experience. That's wonderful. I've never had any contact with the after life sadly. I had encounters with what I think to be god, but no revelation of afterlife.
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Perhaps the universe as a self-organizing intelligent system. I started to consider this possibility by accident. Maybe the organization we are familiar with at a scale below our awareness of the "outside world" extends to encompass us as individuals.
Short video analogies:
Spoiler [+]
Hydrogen atom imaged:
http://io9.com/the-first-image-ever-of-a-hydrogen-atoms-orbital-struc-509684901
Helix nebula:
http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/imagegallery/image_feature_2368.html
Repeated embedded similar structures keep recurring.
I think certain ancient schools of thought said "As above so below, as within so without".
Taken further, there might very well be a sense of a universal "me" just as we have unified selves even though we're composed of trillions of cells.
Even our brains alone have inumerable neurons yet we don't feel like a trillion people at our highest normal level of awareness.
This is the only concept of god that I can reconcile with what is known.
The irony is that, if real, it would evade us to the extent that we are invested in our individuality.
"May the force be with you" smiley: wink
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
Last Edited By: auth Sep 4 14 2:10 PM. Edited 3 times.
status offlinehalf banana
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Yes Auth the ancients saw patterns of nature were repeated in the Earth and cosmos. They were sophisticated thinkers and must have realised that the external appearance of living things is the consequence of internal structure.
I think evidence par excellence for ancient practical wisdom is to be found in the Antikethera device which is the Greek clockwork celestial computer built around 100 BCE, it was portable too. It takes into account such refinements as the eccentricity of the orbit of the moon. Breathtakingly stupendous!
(I’m still mulling over your notion of fitting oneself into the ‘atomic’ pattern of the universe).
Figgy ...”beliefless”. So what is the point of believing anything?
If it is to comfort our self, we can believe exactly what we like to believe and that's how we or our parents ended up being a JW.
However, if it is to learn what is true, what is real and helpful; we need to examine the evidence before we start choosing to believe.
The ancients of the Classical world had got the handle on scientific investigation but not the modern scientific method which means theory, testing and peer review. This is our intellectual bedrock today. It is this method of science which gives us life enhancing medical treatment for example. These are things we can believe. They are beliefs tested to destruction by experts in their fields.
Religious belief on the other hand, is at the mercy of any priest, nut-case-preacher or snake oil merchant; there is no testing possible for religious belief. No wonder the Watchtower org doesn't like education; they only thrive in ignorance!
The religion of Rome was also practical in nature; it was primarily to safeguard the needs of the household and land. It was not spiritual as modern religious folk desire it to be. They certainly believed in ghosts and malign forces and hence they took religious countermeasures in the form of superstitious rituals.
The point I am aiming for is that “belief” should ONLY follow knowledge.
If we learn one thing from being a JW it is that without proper knowledge we are at the mercy of hucksters.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
Last Edited By: half banana Sep 6 14 7:22 AM. Edited 1 times.
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I now question science as much as religion as a part of questioning my beliefs.
Science, especially when it tries to infer things about the past, is often based on assumptions that if wrong could send the house of deductions tumbling down.
For example dating the distant past based on radioactive decay rates rests on a major assumption that might seem reasonable: the rate of radioactive decay for each element is constant.
Yet I've seen claims that the sun's activity may influence it http://news.stanford.edu/news/2010/august/sun-082310.html
In my opinion that makes our dates for the age of the dinosaurs, for example, questionable.
What if the sun was in a different phase of activity or some other source of radiation impacted the solar system?
The fact that radioactive decay rates have been relatively stable during our extremely limited time of observation says very little in the grand scheme of things.
It's interesting because we have to assume certain parameters were not drastically different in the past in order to make any guesses at all.
Yet those assumptions, made to the best of our knowledge, may still be false rendering our conclusions invalid.
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
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The Greeks were pretty smart. I dislike the assumption our ancestors were stupid. They just didn't know everything, a hundred years from now people will think the same thing about our society.
Last Edited By: inventor Sep 6 14 3:20 PM. Edited 3 times.
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Some of you guys are really smart and over my head with your intelligence and with things you post about. But I enjoy your posts, I learn something.
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Since leaving JWdom(dumb) I have been on quite a journey myself regarding belief or non-belief. I too have had some I guess you might call them mystical experiences and they were really comforting at the time but As much as I'd like to just stop there and bask in the belief that they happened I find myself ever questioning and second guessing things.
I have just borrowed the audio CD by Richard Dawkins; The God Delusion and will probably have to go back and listen to some parts again because it takes MY complete concentration to get all the points made. Even in listening to men like Dawkins sometimes little things said seem just a little bit more opinion than fact. That said, I feel like you Auth in questioning even science because I have also noted the information you noted about the sun and thought the exact same thing. The thing that helped lead us all out of the JW mindset was Questioning things an by that I mean ALL things!
I am currently not in a very comfortable place regarding belief and not knowing at least a little of the 'whys' so I can certainly sympathize with you Figuringitout. I hate the world news and all the suffering that is always going on but seems to be a bit more so lately. No god I could ever believe in would allow this shit! I am depressed by the powerlessness in myself to change negative things....
The journey continues however and I hope I can settle into a peaceful place (and I don't mean 6' under!) of acceptance soon. You too ; )
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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whytebyrd2 wrote:
Since leaving JWdom(dumb) I have been on quite a journey myself regarding belief or non-belief. I too have had some I guess you might call them mystical experiences and they were really comforting at the time but As much as I'd like to just stop there and bask in the belief that they happened I find myself ever questioning and second guessing things.
I have just borrowed the audio CD by Richard Dawkins; The God Delusion and will probably have to go back and listen to some parts again because it takes MY complete concentration to get all the points made. Even in listening to men like Dawkins sometimes little things said seem just a little bit more opinion than fact. That said, I feel like you Auth in questioning even science because I have also noted the information you noted about the sun and thought the exact same thing. The thing that helped lead us all out of the JW mindset was Questioning things an by that I mean ALL things!
I am currently not in a very comfortable place regarding belief and not knowing at least a little of the 'whys' so I can certainly sympathize with you Figuringitout. I hate the world news and all the suffering that is always going on but seems to be a bit more so lately. No god I could ever believe in would allow this shit! I am depressed by the powerlessness in myself to change negative things....
The journey continues however and I hope I can settle into a peaceful place (and I don't mean 6' under!) of acceptance soon. You too ; )
Same here, my mystical experiences were like a drug, and when they wore off I began questioning again. I question everything, I'm a huge skeptic, and it gets me trouble with people sometimes. That's why I try to avoid topics about religion, and politics, I never pick a side, and just critique, argue.
I have read the god delusion twice, it's a good book. IMO Hitchen's books about religion was absolute trash. He had a command over the English language, but basically goes around in circles. Dawkins on the other hand is much better. Logical, poetic, gets to the point, and makes the best LOGICAl arguments against religion.
I prefer agnosticism because I can't even be comfortable with an atheist position, I just constantly question that.
I don't know if I will ever have true faith, and I think need to make peace that I will never answer these questions in my head.
Im glad to know someone else is in the same boat as I.
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(((inventor))) As long as you're here and I am and so many others here with all the interesting viewpoints and takes on life, we can all I hope find some comfort if not definitive answers. I did smile a bit to see that I am not alone. Hang in there.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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"I don't consider myself generally all that spiritual and I never pray, . . ."
You know I still pray sometimes. It might be due to anxiety I have about things, but, I feel that sometimes it works. For instance, a few days ago I had some health problems; so, I went to the doctor's, but in the mean time I prayed that it would not be that serious, and, well, it's not that serious, at least not yet.
"I don't need an exact hope (i.e. petting lions), but I would like to think there is something else after thIs life."
Petting lions?
It took me a minute, . . . but I get it. lol
status offlinewomanbeyondtime
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You deserve some time to have a good reply which I don't have a lot of right now. but I would like to encourage you to look at some books by scientists like "The evidence of God in an Expanding Universe" by John Clover Monsma and others that talk about the incredible planning and design in the universe. I have looked at both sides of this coin. It is very common in the loss of being in such a structured group of people to have an identity crisis, to feel lost and very hurt and to question everything. There are many reasons for this. In many ways the witness program does not cultivate critical thinking or logical deductive reasoning. I can assure you from my own hard won experience that there is a God who is far greater than the Watchtower society or the suffering of the human race. Yes I would take your "sign" as a connection to the God who is "not far off". You should spend some time associating with other minds who have taken the considerable effort to discipline themselves to write books on these types of subjects. Enjoy their company. I would like also to recommend a book by Guy Finley "The Secret of Letting Go". It is very kindly written and talks about how our minds work. I have recommended it to many people and they have thanked me many times for telling them about it.
Kindest regards to you
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The point I am aiming for is that “belief” should ONLY follow knowledge.
Actually, halfbanana, I think you might have that backwards.
Belief is required when there is no evidence of something.
With proof, you no longer require belief.
With knowledge, belief is not necessary and it doesn't even enter into the equation.
smiley: smile
Alice laughed…
"One can’t believe impossible things!"
"I daresay you haven’t had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."
- Lewis Carroll Alice in Wonderland
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On attending a birthday party (dealing with residual effects of JW.org childhood)
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On attending a birthday party (dealing with residual effects of JW.org childhood)
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Hi All,
Background: I escaped the borg long ago as a teen, only began researching it recently. I was raised the son of an extremely devoted and conservative elder, so i lost my entire family nearly 30 years ago. It's been disturbing to recognize it as a high control org or cult, as i previously thought of it only as a wacky evangelical religion.
This weekend I attended the 70th birthday celebration of my father in law. It was a mild, warm and friendly event with around 80 guests. I felt like i was a bit ill. I've felt uncomfortable at large family gatherings, particularly those events and western/christian traditions banned by the JW movement, since leaving. I have always thought it was because of my lack of family ties and the pain surrounding that. After reading up on the indoctrination processes and methods employed by high control organizations to manipulate participants through repetition, loaded words and the association of negative "supernatural" qualities to everyday objects and events (satan in toys like a ghost), my mind is left somewhat blown. I feel that I can see a bit more clearly where my negative feelings are and how I came to have them. Some of the deeper effects of this distant, negative "mental regulation" and training are losing their place. At the same time, it's quite uncomfortable to learn that i was raised in a "cult" and to realize that some of it is still in me in the form of certain negative thought patterns, attitudes and subtle prejudices.
I wonder if any of you have had similar experiences or feelings. Perhaps you left the borg years ago or more recently, but you were able to sort yourself out, refresh yourself and build a normal life. Do you continue to feel uncomfortable at family gatherings of regular folks who hold different opinions and beliefs (birthdays, christmas, anniversaries or other celebrations), although everything is actually fine? I find the effects of my earlier training by the JW movement to be like a subtle stain on a nice shirt; something's not quite right, but it isn't always immediately evident.
Your thoughts?
status offlineFiguringitout20
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I'm not sure if I've welcomed you to this forum. So, if not welcome! I've been out almost 20 years. When I first left I mostly felt giddy about celebrating holidays, because I'd always wanted to celebrate them. But I didn't know TTATT and always felt in the back of my head that I was doing something wrong, but not enough to ruin my fun. Once learning TTATT, I quit feeling any guilt over celebrating them. However, after spending my whole childhood in the Borg, I do think I'll always feel a little different. Not in the witness way of being different, but in being a little behind socially. I'm not sure what specifically might be the reason behind your feelings, but in general it does sound like part of the normal recovery process - whether that be guilt, sadness over loss of family ties or being uncomfortable in social situations. BTW, I knew a sweet kid named Ian, when I was growing up, who had a conservative elder dad just like mine. So, I like your user name :)
status offlineMarked for life
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Ian,
I totally get that. I too have a large non-JW extended family that I grew away from during my JW years. It has been nearly impossible to close the gap with them over the past 26 or so years. They always reach out to me and invite us to family gatherings, but I always decline. A few years ago we moved about 16 hours away from where they all live and the cushion of distance has actually given me alot of comfort. It's strange. I can be very close with the people in my wife's family, but not my own. I have thought about this often and it's good to hear that others experience this as well.
I guess some things are just too hard to shake. Even after so long.
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I have understood that very much. I recently was DF'd about 2 years ago and this was just after the Christmas holiday. I was at work and my first experience was during valentine's day where I received a lot of candies and cards. I felt very uneasy and honestly didn't know how to react towards it. I was embarrassed and felt like a elementary student all over again. I just keep telling myself "This IS normal, what most everyone else in the world does!". On my first birthday in August my boyfriends had a great party with plenty of balloons and cakes knowing it was my first one I've ever celebrated. I was very emotional, I cried like a baby when reading their cards they gave me. I am much better now knowing it is perfectly fine to do all this without feeling any guilt.
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Since I grew up with the holidays, it was nothing to get back into it.
status offlineIan
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Thanks for the replies, guys.
@figuringitout20: you hit the nail on the head. It's not a guilty ex-jw feeling, just general social awkwardness.
@marked for life: yes, so hard to shake after so much training. The odd thing is, i had actually forgotten much of that crazy $hit until I began some research a month ago. I guess the fire from heaven and birds eating flesh of those who disobeyed rhetoric remained long after my escape.
The difference in response from jerryjax and cacky also highlights the importance of early indoctrination to maximize permanent impact.
Keep on truckin'
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I totally get where you're coming from Ian.
I've also been out for over 30 years and have run the gauntlet of various non-jdub family events. Birthday parties used to spin me out a little and still can ... but as it turns out, it's more to do with not really being a party animal type than residual religious droppings!
Indoctrination is a dreadful habit to shake off. Even now after all these years I can have a split second moment where I think 'oh I shouldn't be doing that .....' and then the free brain cells kick in with a loud and resounding "WHY NOT!"
With regards to family life ..... maybe you feel the same as me. My family was dissected by the borg years ago. I had a nanna and step-grandfather who kick-started the religious path off for my mum when she was young. My dad found religion after someone knocked on his door and they were so nice to him. He wasn't used to people being nice to him after a harsh upbringing. Both my parents are hopelessly stuck in their religion and they live in fear, guilt, recrimination and of course eternal hope that Armageddon will come soon and they will not have to get sicker ... or die. It's not easy for the long term jdubs to cope with the many changes in doctrine over the years but they are too stuck in their ways to move away from it all ..... and they fear death. As I've often added in here ...... many are too scared to live AND too scared to die.
Perhaps the whole party thing you've felt is more about not having that same freedom of spirit like your in-laws family experience. It's hard to feel at ease in the middle of a big family party like that when you've grown up believing it's akin to celebrating with Satan himself. When someone threw me a birthday party ... I was quite taken back and didn't really know what to do. My friend simply said ... 'just have fun'. So I did!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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My Dear Mother
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My Dear Mother
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I have neglected my friends on this site and I am so sorry, but life seems to get in the way of things. Now I come to you for support.
For those of you who don't know me, my dear Mother was enslaved by the dubs for 40 years. With the help of the wonderful people on here I was able to help her see the light and she left,
completely, utterly, finally. She has wanted to know more and has been comparing the dub Bible with a King James so she can see for herself how she has been lied to.
Now she sends birthday and Christmas cards and presents, has voted and even plays the Lottery occasionally. She is much happier in her life, obviously, and seems younger than she was.
She and Dad are both coming up to 83, they were born just over a month apart, and in December they celebrate their Diamond wedding anniversary.
I have been busy organising a small celebration and making sure I send all the necessary details to the Palace so they get their card from Her Majesty.
All sounds great doesn't it?
Last Wednesday she was diagnosed with cancer of the uterus.
She has taken it completely in her stride, coping far better than I am. The surgery is scheduled for November 6 and the surgeon is hoping he can do keyhole so she will only be in
hospital for one night. Tomorrow she goes for a full body scan to make sure the cancer hasn't spread, I will be going with her of course.
She doesn't want anyone to know about this until after, not even my brother. She doesn't want the fuss. I can understand this, but I need to tell someone, I need to let someone outside
the family know what we are going through. So I came to my friends here.
I don't want any sympathy, I feel better having typed this out, but please spare a prayer or send some loving thoughts this way, it will be much appreciated.
Thanks for listening.
Love and hugs to all
Karen xxxxxxxxxxxx
If you don't live on the edge you take up too much room
status offlinecangie
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Loving thoughts are on their way, Geowyn...Special Delivery!!! I hope all will be well, and that your mom begins healing very soon. Tell her I sent an extra hug, and some balloons! Hug Throw heart kisses Balloons
Last Edited By: cangie 5 days ago. Edited 1 times.
status offlineGeowyn
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I will pass them on to her Cangie, thank you so much. She will love the balloons! She has already told the surgeon she plans on being better for her anniversary so he'd better make a good job of it.
If you don't live on the edge you take up too much room
status offlineJourney
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Prayers for her today Geowyn. I truly hope this is early. Hang in there. Hugs, Janet
status offlineCacky
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Prayers for you mom. This may turn out just fine, I hope so. Keep us posted.
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Thank you so much. Mum went for her MRI scan yesterday and is really cool about it all. Her team meet on Monday so we probably won't hear anything
before then. If all goes well and they don't find it has spread, this time next month she will be home recovering.
Love and hugs to all xxxxxxxx
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Ah Geowyn (Karen), I was so happy to see your name again!
Your anxiety about your mom is understandable. Your mom sounds like a truly beautiful and courageous trooper! Some think that at an advanced age Jdubs just can't change but your mom is proof positive that it can happen and a lot of happy LIFE can happen. She is a shining example of one who is doing what she was put on this earth o do......live well and be happy!
Along with acknowledging TTAT comes the acknowledgement that we all have an end awaiting us......something we were trying to avoid while being JW's. Your mother, as I said, sounds like a real trooper so I think her great attitude will have a good effect on her ability to get through this. My thoughts are surely with you all. Let us know how you all are doing.
(((Karen)))
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Karen, Yes, our prayers and positive thoughts go out to you at this stressful time.
I'm happy for your mom having found there is a good life to have lived after the jw experience and yet we know death will come to all of us and thankfully some doctors actually understand how stressful it can be on family.
This is a wonderful site for the recovering jw....so don't stay away so longsmiley: wink.
status offlinecalminthestorm
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Sending warm wishes your way. How awesome that she got out of the religion and had an opportunity to see another way to live! May her tests and surgery go well.
Calm
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Just me with fence rider
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Well, it was a beautiful day and then all of of sudden she tells me she will be leaving on Monday! I'm thinking what the fuck!
Then, I had too remember she has not been to the KH since being here...she has a whole different life to live around us and she's feeling uncomfortable because our life is not about Jehovah.
As goes, she wants control and she doesn't have it here because we're not like her and most certainly Jehovah is not my god!
Actually it's sad because I will miss her but she cannot put this one on me. I'm trying to work with her on family issues but she just wants to run.
That's why I say, anyone that has the courage to stick around - welcome to our world of recovery.
What I see, they want to talk their bullshit but once we discuss something they don't like - well, all hell breaks out. It just can't happen in my happy home...
status offlineCacky
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It's so true they want to talk about their beliefs, but if you say something contrary to that, they don't want to discuss it. With my daughters, I bring up subjects like about an article I read about Neanderthals, and how most humans have Neanderthal genes. It makes me wonder what they think about Neanderthals, since they aren't mentioned in the Bible, so you'd have to wonder how they rationalize the fact that there was more than one human species at one time. Or I'll talk about how people think these days are bad, during the dark ages and the time of the plague, people then really thought the end was coming. I talk about how life is so much better now, for those of us living in developed countries, that is, then it had been during the past.
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Aw chin up Lin!! We know how frustrating it is to be continually banging your head against a brick wall..............but when it comes to family members we just have to keep trying, even though we know what we are up against smiley: ohwell
If they are out of the jw 'loop' they feel lost because they are not getting their dose of mind-control.......and maybe finding herself in a happy family situation that doesn't have the borg at its heart just makes her want to run back to the mind control......you can do no more Lin, so immerse yourself in your own happiness cos its the only one you can control!!
Hugs
Sam x
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Thank ya'll for the replies. You help me stay balanced in an unbalanced situation.
It's been a long summer with being there for our neighbors that have death knocking at their door - a son. I'm looking forward to when we have snow and can shut down for winter because we are preparing ahead of time.
There are days when it seems all I do is cry...and yet I still keep one foot in front of the other. Thank you for your emotional support because it's not always easy. Love, LIN
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Jared's Tale of JW Life
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Hey everyone, I am new here to this website. It seems this is the only active one I have been able to find. Alas, I have enjoyed reading many of the stories and posts on here. It is very nice to see so many finding out the "truth" about the "truth"! Also, I am sorry if some things in my story are too graphic (if so please let me know so I can edit it)....I am going to explain my detailed family's story. I hope you all enjoy and benefit from my expereince!
So my story beings with me being rasied as a JW. I was born in Hartford, CT and have 5 siblings. I was the youngest in the family. I lived in CT until I was 6 and we moved to Pittsburgh, PA because my Dad was transferred for work. Now, at the time I hadn't realized the entire situation with my Mom and her feelings towards being a JW as I was too young but I will get into that later. We lived in PA until I was 16 and we moved to FL since my Dad was able to retire from work. I left FL at 25 to move to KS for my boyfriends' work.
My eldest sister had her son when she was young and was living on her own in VT while we lived in CT. When we moved to PA my father purchased her a house and her and my nephew moved along with us in PA. She was disphellowshipped at the time but we had very close contact with her and it we didn't treat her like we would have any other non-family DF'd JW. I never thought twice about it since she was my big sister who I was close to and we all loved. My sister would go to all the meetings with my nephew and a local sister would have weekly bible studies with her. She would never and i mean NEVER participate in field service. The sister studying with her would encourage her along with my Dad but my sister would just brush it off. Oddly enough it was never an issue for my family or the congregation, she was very liked by all. Now she is in her 30s and is a single mom working full-time to support herself and my nephew. She always wanted to have someone in her life to be with. She would try and see if there were any eligible brothers in the congregations around but none would be what she was looking for. Many brothers tried to go out with her but she would usually laugh it off with us stating "That'll never happen!". Now she would go online to find some brothers and my Dad was not very happy with her doing so. One time she met a brother online and he came over to the house for a dinner date. My Dad sadly drilled him with questions and comments regarding his current and future spiritual motives and pursuits. He even stated how courtship should occur quoting the Family Happiness book. So as we lived in PA my sister would live her life on her own doing what she pleased while slowly easing her way out of the JW life. Fast forward to our move to FL where my Dad purchases her another home for them to live in. Same situation in FL happens where she'll go to some meetings and all. Soon, she meets her future husband at work. She eventually gets married without anyone knowing until one day my Dad tries to stop by and see her at home one day during field service. We stumble upon her moving out of the house with my newly wed brother-in-law. My Dad then rushes to sell the house and bragging to all the congregation stating it was "a blessing in disguise!". I always kept in touch with my sister and still do to this day. She is happily married with now 5 children (4 new ones since being married!) She still lives in FL and is a full-time mom and loves it. She still has some guilt as to what happened but it never gets her down. She also came out to me as being Bisexual! We both had a good laugh at that and are now closer than ever.
status offlineCacky
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Sep 17 14 10:25 AM
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Hello and welcome to the board. Thanks for sharing your story. I'm guessing your sister got reinstated since she was being studied with and you mentioned that she never went out in service, since if she was still df'd, there would be no question of her not going out in service. I'm looking forward to learning more about you and your experiences.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Sep 19 14 10:29 PM
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Hi there upside down Jerry and welcome .................................
I'm really glad that you have maintained a close relationship with your sister. I can remember my mum telling me that my younger sister (by 12 months) didn't want anything to do with me when I told my family that I didn't want to be part of their religion anymore ..... and my sister was standing behind my mum, shaking her head with tears streaming down her face. I was nearly 19 at the time and she was nearly 18. 30 odd years later my sister no longer goes to meetings and we're closer than ever!
Your sister has certainly been busy having four kids after getting married! Good for her! I bet she's really happy too ....... makes all of the topsy-turvy times less important doesn't it. I hope you enjoy your visits in here.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Sep 20 14 7:36 AM
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Hello there Jerry and welcome :-)
Sounds like your sister is a great person who also has her head screwed on with regards to the jw's!! The fact that she studiously managed to avoid the dreaded field service gives her kudos in my book lol!!
I am glad that you are still close....this religion breaks up far too many families!!
Good to have you here, and I look forward to hearing more of your experiences smiley: smile
Sam x
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlinejerryjax99
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Sep 22 14 8:31 AM
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Thanks everyone. I could of added more but the character limit stopped my story, haha. My sister was reinstated when we moved to PA. So she just slowly eased out and was never DF'd even in FL. The elders tried meeting with her but she always just refused. My Dad did have the local congregation send JWs to her house to talk with her but she always stood her ground. Last time she stated to them "Why would I want to be a JW when they won't support my gay brothers and son?" They left her doorstep dumbfounded! Well, I will update my story when I have some time with the next sibling my 2nd sister. Look forward to it!
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Sep 23 14 9:43 PM
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Slowly easing out or fading ... is often the best way to go and far less hassle. Your sister has sense to keep away from elder meetings ...... they're usually a whitewashed witch hunt to begin with anyway! She sounds like my kind of ex-jdub ...... honest, to the point and not someone to trifle with!
I'll be back for the next installment of your story Jared!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Over Two Years....
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offlineImHavingABadDay
Over Two Years....
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Apr 10 14 12:52 PM
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It's been over two years since I've stepped foot in a Kingdom Hall...and on Monday I'll be attending the memorial.
In 2012 my life took a turn. I, a female baptized publisher in the congregation, got a girl friend. Why? Because at the time I loved her, I lusted after her even. I was a junior in a high school, and raised as one of Jehovah's Witnesses since birth. But as I reached my teen's, I couldn't help but disagree with their views on the LGBTQ community. Even before my baptism a pioneer sister would come once a week to give me a bible study. Since I was brought up in the religion, why would I have to be some pioneer's pet project? But I could never get out of it. But there was one lesson where she spoke of "Homosexuals" as being "perverse, and disgusting." Even then I had some gay or lesbian friends, and they seemed no different to me than anyone else. Eventually I got baptized a year after some class mates. It moved me, and so I went along. Everyone was so proud of me....it was such a mistake. Thinking now, I can't even remember what year I was baptized in. I believe it was January 2012, but I'm not sure.
Anyway, back to 2012. I had gotten a girl friend. She lived states away, so it was online. I had a lot of online friends, and it took years to convince my family they were real and not some pedophile. But the fact is that most people outside the congregation don't want to kill you, or sleep with you. My mother didn't know about the relationship, but my younger sister found out through an art site her and I used. I don't know if she told my mother or what, but one day my mother drove me home from school, parked by our house, and sobbed, telling me she knew about Rene(not her real name) and I. That led to a Sheparding call not long after. They seemed surprised when they counseled me on lusting after men, and my reaction was blank faced, that is was a girl I showed my affections to. My uncle was an elder at the time, and still is to this day. It wasn't long before the news reached him. I remember one day we were playing the board-game "Life" and when it came time to get married I gave my little pink player a blue one to ride along with. My uncle looked at me and said something along the lines of "What, you're not choosing a wife?" in angry tone. It was then my paranoia set in. I felt like everyone knew, like everyone judged. My mother spoke me to differently, the parents of other teen my age looked at me with scorn. It was then I stopped attending meetings. My mother insisted that wasn't the case. But to this day I do not believe her.
The only solace I had was in my friends, my "wordly" friends. But due to the fact that one of them was a girl my age and her bisexual boyfriend, she cut my ties with them. Limited my phone, my internet. I had no ties with anyone outside the congregation. No one to talk to but judging eyes. It was then the cutting began. It wasn't really cutting, not that you would traditionally think of any way. I disassembled a clothespin and scratched raw red lines on my arm. One for every day I had no one to turn to. One for every day I was supposed to "pray to feel better." Then one day I left. I walked down the street to my brothers workplace. I have two older ones. The eldest is a witness. The second hasn't been for years. (We will name the eldest Dan and the younger Cole.) Once at Cole's work I told him all that had happened. It was then that I moved into his place. I lived with him for maybe a few weeks, spending my birthday there, being able to talk to my friends, and finally getting in contact with Rene, who was worried sick over me. But in early June, near the end of the school year, Cole had to go on a trip. He had planned it long before anything had happened, and I had to stay with my mother once again. I dreaded it. He was only gone for four days or so. Dan lived in the house across from us, and I was sure he noticed my absence. Before I had left he cam into my room on evening and began spitting scripture at me. Speaking about Sodom and Gomorrah. Asking if I "really didn't think he'd find out." I cried, out of fear, though I'm he took it as guilt and left. Now that I had returned he came into my room in the morning. He tried to pull me out of my room he "just wanted to talk". I was screaming, crying, all out of fear. I tried to use my phone, to call 911, to call Cole, but Dan took it. I had seen him mad before. He had thrown lawnmowers, thrown our dog across the living room, and now I was his target. My mother got in the way, protecting me, but Dan grabbed her arm, the one she had recently broken and just had surgery on. She yelled out in pain, he didn't stop. I ran out of the house and climbed a tree, like I had done so many times before to get away. By this time my younger sister had gotten the phone and given back to me. I called Cole, in tears. He said I had to go to the hospital. I argued, but was in no mental or physical state to properly object. He called his ex wife, a woman who remained a close family friend, and she drove me to the hospital, mom following us in another car. I was submitted into the psych ward at around 6 pm on a Saturday. In the middle of the night I talked with a social worker, and at around 12pm on Sunday, I was moved to a rehab center. It was full of "troubled teens". Kids who cut, kids who fought, kids who drank. And it helped, the hospital helped me. I had few visitors, mostly only my mother. Once my Aunt and Uncle did visit for an hour or two, my Uncle's only words to me were "When are you coming back to the hall?"
When I finally got out school was over for the year and my mother had given me back my friends, though I still couldn't go to the meetings. The very thought of it gave me panic attacks. But I attended gatherings and parties, and no one treated me differently. Then Dan got engaged. For me to be in the wedding I had to attend all the meetings. So I went to all the Sunday meetings I could, crying through the songs, and gripping onto the chair for dear life otherwise. Running to the car when the last prayer concluded. Dan didn't care if I was in pain, he was saving face. He had always cared about image after all. So eventually he got married and I cried at the reception. Though now I know it wasn't him who necessarily cared if I went to those meetings. It was my our Uncle. Uncle had not wanted me in the wedding, but Dan did, so they compromised, again, not caring for my mental health. Then I graduated High School, and I would have loved to have it with my school friends. And by now those friends I had longed to be with before, I was dating the boy, the girl and I grew apart, since he was her ex-boyfriend and all that. But my mother didn't approve so I had a graduation party with witnesses. The only teenage girl my age did not attend, since her parents did not think I was a good example. And yet earlier that year I was practically required to go to hers. The last function I attended was a housewarming party for Dan and his new wife. I haven't been around a group of Witnesses since. In late July of that year my mother kicked me out and I again moved in with Cole. Two months later, Cole moved in with his girlfriend and I moved in with my boyfriend and his parents. During that time my mother and her long time boyfriend had gotten disfellowshipped. Last July my boyfriend and I moved into an apartment. And another witness I had been close to, and one who never abandoned me, got dissfellowshipped with his girl friend. And currently we are moving again and my younger sister lives with Dan. I cannot express how scared I am because of this. Dan and his wife have never wanted children, so why they would take in a Teenager is beyond me. I also cannot see why my mother agreed to such a thing. My sister is forbidden to speak with me, though she often does anyway and got in trouble for it, and is hardly aloud to speak with our mother. The only kids her age in the hall are boys, so she gets in trouble for talking with them. And since Dan and his wife taker her electronics away because she speaks with me, she cannot talk to other young sisters her age in different halls. And she was only recently baptized. She is the same age I was when everything happened. I can see Dan and his wife pushing her where he helped push me. And there is no one there to protect her. It pains me to sit idly by while they take way her freedom and her uniqueness. In fact, the last time I felt this helpless is when I began my self harm.
Only last year did the elder's announce my dissassociation. I hadn't ever given them a letter, even though I said I would. But it was clear I wasn't coming back. Now after all that time and after all that pain I am attending the memorial. Why? Because it is something I believe in. I may not agree with some of the teachings, or the rules the Witnesses have. And I am convinced that many do what they do blindly or to save face. but after all that I have come to terms with who I am, and what I believe. If anything now, I am curious to see what people will say to me. I work in a local grocery store so many witnesses see me. Some, even elders wives, speak with me as if nothing's changed. Others ignore me even when I'm scanning their groceries.
And if you are wondering where my father is through all this, he was disfellowshipped when I was very young. But that is a different story all together. Now he and I are close. I apologize for such a long story, but everything in it is true.
status onlineKBG
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Apr 10 14 6:04 PM
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Hi Having,
Welcome I hope I can be a sounding board for you, and others here will want to be here for you too!
As for your story.... Wow....wow... Did I say Wow yet??? You've had some really rough times to go thru with no strong allies in your corner. I'm glad you at least had Cole to help you when you needed it most. My mother had to help raise her younger siblings when her own mother bailed on them. It didn't work out well, she feels bad about not being able to do enough for them, but she was practically a kid herself.
You don't really speak to how you see the contradictions resolving. If you think the way the Watchtower portrays LGBTQ is unkind and misleading, why are you going back? Is it for family? What are the real reason you are going back? What do you believe that is taking you back if you also disagree with many of their beliefs.
I ask the above question to help you think it through. Not to pressure you and say you ought to leave or you should go back. There were many years that I stayed in it for family, even though I didn't believe the Watchtower BTS was THE TRUE RELIGION anymore.
Whatever you decide, I do wish you a happy life. And I can give you ear to talk/type thru what you are thinking.
Hugs, K
status offlineImHavingABadDay
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Apr 10 14 6:41 PM
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I'm not going back. Just going to the memorial this year. Since my mothers been DF'd she has been so much more supporting. My boyfriend and I are actually moving into her house since she will be moving in with her boy friend. Even though I left, and I love that I left, there are still some things I believe in, or things I value what I was taught. And though if any one asks I would tell them I'm Christian, but I my boyfriend and I have some Native American roots, so we are trying to find our way back to them. But the memorial is something I believe in, honoring Jesus death. Just because his death led to a bunch of crazy elders and brainwashed kids shouldn't stop me from that. Since I was raised as a JW for so long some things are hard to let go, but I'm slowly finding my own religious self. But the memorial is something I still think I should still respect, because I don't personally think Jesus is myth. Do I think that he was truly the son of God or that his death payed for all of our sins, I don't really know. But I believe he lived a hellish life and I respect that fact by going to the memorial.
I am so proud I've found this community because there isn't anyone to talk to about this stuff. I talk to my boyfriend about it, since his mom was a crazy christian too, but not a JW, so he get's some of it but not all of it. My sister is recently baptized and only wants me back. And my mother doesn't know what she wants religiously. So I finally found a place to open up! WOO HOO! Thanks guys!
status offlineRaine
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Apr 10 14 11:08 PM
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Welcome
I'm so glad you came here to share your story. It's brave and will help others as they relate to you.
It's been 17 years since I left. But I keenly remember what it was like to be the target of JW gossip (slander). All of them would rather believe what was said behind my back. And judge me. Not one of them came to me to ask what the truth is. It was completely isolating and damaging. I can relate to your experience in that way.
Honestly though, it is so reflective of how JW's believe and behave overall. They are told by the Watchtower that they are the truth, the way and the light. Everything in all the publications from the awake to the bible is absolute truth. Never question, never seek the actual truth. What if I told you the memorial isn't what we thought it was. All it takes is a little research and.. Well it shook me up when I went down the research path. And I mean that in a good way. Please don't get me wrong. I don't want to dissuade you. You have every right to go and every right to believe in what you want. I will always support a persons right to choose and do what makes them fulfilled and happy within themselves and about themselves.
But I do want to say that to ask questions and seek answers and then research those answers to corroborate. Is one of the greatest gifts we have as humans. Knowledge truly is power. We can only go on that journey when we are ready. And just know that we'll be here for you.
You've been through a lot so (((Hugs))) and I truly hope your life has peace and happiness now and in the future. Looking forward to reading more of your posts.
All the best
I Ctrl+Alt+Deleted My Religious Programming
"It is better to live one day as a lion, than a hundred years as sheep"
I would consider myself foolish if I listened to someone who refused to listen to me.
status offlineMarked for life
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Apr 11 14 5:51 AM
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Hey Having and welcome!
Being young and going through what we have is completely unique in this world and thank goodness it is! I'm very happy to see you getting these things off your chest. This is a beginning of a very important healing process for you. You should definately embrace life for what you feel is right for yourself. Many people will feel shame for something they shouldn't because of dogma that has been shoved down their throats for a lifetime. If you believe in God as I do, you should know that he/she created you to be exactly what you are. You are perfect to him/her. Everything else is a lie.
You can hold onto core values that you learned without having to conform to another groups standards. I read a great quote once:
"Sitting in a church(or Kingdom Hall) doesn't make you a christian any more than sitting in a barn makes you a cow."
In other words, These places are full of hipocrites like your brother Dan. Christians ought not to be abusive. That's evil. Not from God.
I don't usually say this because I feel like people should find their path in their own way, But I would stay away from the Memorial if I were you, esp. given the anxiety you feel. You can hold your own memorial in your heart everyday. And that's infinately more important than sitting in a room full of sinners who refuse to agknowledge that that's what they are.
Anyway I'm glad you found us!
Love ya
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status offlinesolitaire
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Apr 11 14 9:48 AM
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Hello there and welcome :-)
Hope that your days just got better for finding us lot smiley: smile
I talk to my boyfriend about it, since his mom was a crazy christian too, but not a JW, so he get's some of it but not all of it
I totally get that.......it was just how I felt when I first found this place!! My 'worldly' hubby has had to listen to my rants about my upbringing for many years and, although he sympathised and tried to understand the anomalies of the religion, he never totally 'got' it....
So to find a whole community of people from all over the world who did get it, who spoke the same 'language' was an amazing feeling!
I understand your wanting to attend the memorial and see the reactions, but I just hope that their narrow-minded views and attitudes don't cause you even more discomfort!! D/a'd...D/f'd....however they label us, they have to stay within their 'safety' zones, which mean treating us how they are told, as 'mentally diseased' smiley: sick To allow interaction between active jw's and anyone who is finally thinking for themselves is way too dangerous for them to contemplate ....
The organisation try so hard to isolate us when we dare to question, but thanks to the internet and sites like this, that is no longer the way it has to be.....finally we have no need to feel alone in the real world......and I am pleased that you have been brave enough to take back control of your life and also to tell some of your story.......
Good to have you here, and I hope you enjoy 'letting of steam' smiley: smile
Sam x
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlineImHavingABadDay
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Apr 17 14 11:19 AM
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It was actually pretty boring....
I went through with it and attended the Memorial on Monday night. I don't know what I was expecting, but I felt virtually nothing. I think the most awkward part was when the young brother my sister likes kept looking over at me and then to her. I just wanted to go over and say to him "Yes, she is my little sister. Yes, I am that disfellowshipped girl you've probably heard about. But if you don't stop staring at her I'm going to sink my high heels into your face." Other wise I just kept making sarcastic remarks to my mother, who is also DF'ed. When they were praying over the wine the brother said something along the lines of "And we all have decided to turn away from a life of sin..." And I leaned over to my mom and whispered, "Well...not ALL of us made that decisions." It was all she could do to not interrupt the prayer. My aunt saw me though and got really happy. I'm just hoping that she doesn't take it as a sign of me coming back. Because I never want to be in there or around those people again.
Oh right...one other funny thing was that on the wall it had this year's quote "Let your kingdom come". It really sounds like they are just begging for it to happen at this point, but maybe that's just me.
And thank's for all the welcome's, I really appreciate it :)
status offlineinspecterD
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Hi ImHavingABadDay and welcome to the forum. I guess I haven't seen your first post and haven't properly welcomed you. I am glad that you found this forum since it is a safe and comfortable place to land after being in the Borg. I give you kudo's to be able to attend the memorial since I myself have decided that I probably would embarrass myself if I were to attempt it. I am also very happy that you have your Mom to support you in your choices in life. Even though mine didn't support my choices they at least didn't shun me which made a big difference to me.
Keep on posting here we love to hear from new ones.
status offlineCacky
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Hi and welcome to the board. I hope you enjoy your visits around here.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Hi there Having ..... here's hoping you can change your name to HavingASuperAwesomeDecade sooner rather than later eh!
Welcome to the forum ............. and thanks for sharing your story. I've no idea why I missed your thread either (just caught up with Thoughtful's) ................ but better late than never right!
I only ever went to one of the WBTS' memorial services after walking out ... and it was only to keep my mum happy. It didn't make her happy at all ... as she thought I'd 'see the light' and keep on going! My poor mum ..... 33 odd years later and still she has those moments when she thinks I'll go back because I 'know' it's 'the truth'. Like NOT!\
Anywhooooo ... I hope you enjoy your visits and that your stiletto heels stay firmly on the ground and not end up in some poor delusional person's face!!! Haha!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinewomanbeyondtime
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Just to share the highlights. I just read your story havingabadday. When I was df'd in 99 I did try to go to a few meetings in the neighboring city. But as I cried every time, I decided I had to stop going till I stopped crying. Then one night I had this dream that I went to that hall and they were having a party and filling their plates with food and of course everyone was dressed and I was naked. I collapsed in the corner crying and a sister came over with a paper plate with some very tiny, tiny little crumbs on it and said "Here you can have this". You don't have to be big into dream interpretation to analyze that. Then I decided like you that I wanted to show respect for Jesus by going to the memorial and so I went till 2009. My mother had still talked to me for years after I was df'd although it was on the phone as she lived far away. I was always close to my mother. In June of 08 I could not get her on the phone and I was afraid to leave a message as my sister, married to an elder, should discover it. I finally left a desperate message asking what was wrong. I was worried she was sick or what I did not know. She called back and in the strangest high voice she said "I'm under demonic attack" I said "what what's wrong" she said in a very low voice "I'm under demonic attack. The elders said I cannot talk to you anymore that's why I'm being attacked by the demons." I said "Mom we've talked ..." "I'm sorry ___ " were the last words I heard her say. The phone clicked and that was the last time I talked to my mom. I was so angry I located the number for the hall and called but no elders were there. I then thought how they would make trouble for her and how vulnerable and screwed up she was and I decided not to pursue it. A year and a half later after a strange occurrence in the night I got a phone call in the morning from my brother-in-law who is an elder telling me that my mom had died. Her back had snapped. My mother although an intelligent person did have mental issues, but about 2 years before her vertebrae had started to break. This probably was the source of her "demonic attacks". At any rate she died on Februrary 14th. The memorial was close after but I really decided then that it was the wrong place to go. The "elders" and the society have promoted this kind of idiocy for years and it was not just a few elders in her congregation that caused this breach. Like many of you I had suffered a life time of breaches in relationships because of their insidious and cruel Machiavelian policies. My strange occurrence in the night was like having a head board beat violently against the wall. I looked outside in the morning everywhere to see what could have caused the noise. This was chillingly strange as I was at the time staying since October in a completely empty house that a friend was losing in bankruptcy. I myself had resorted to sleeping in my car for two weeks till the friend found out and insisted that I stay in her empty house. I was sleeping on an air mattress. My mother did not know where I was living or of course my sister who was my only family besides my kids. The point being that if she did have the ability to say goodbye after death how would she have found me without some help. Actually not even my kids knew exactly where I lived. My sister or brother-in-law, I had not talked to for years but when I got the call on my cell in the morning, right away before he spoke I knew what he would say. My mom had died. All I can say is that if my mother died and found out she was still conscious, it must have been a shock! In case you are wondering what I believe now, I think that we do have something separate from our bodies that is the real us. It is spirit. However I do not try to communicate with the dead and I am not saying an immortal. soul. Just maybe there is the chance a person might be able to say good-bye before they go as the Bible says "the spirit returns to the True God who gave it"
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It's about time
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status offlineBilly Sugger
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Mar 4 14 7:23 AM
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Will do...Thanks Andria.....xx
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
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Ian Gillan 1970
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Have you seen your dad yet BillyAndyAndyBilly? How's he going?
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineBilly Sugger
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He's OK Thanks And....Mum isn't so well,she is in hospital after a fall, but he's managing. We shall see them next week, hopefully Mum will be out by then, so I'll take a bottle for him.
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
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Ian Gillan 1970
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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I'm glad your dad is okay BillyAndy ..... sad about your mum though, it's not good when our aging folks take a tumble. I hope she's feeling better soon too.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Billy Sugger wrote:
Morning folks,
Update. I did say Dad was studying again, and doing well. Some of that knowledge that was installed years ago was still there as his study conductor found out. However, he had nearly 50 years out and got into smoking and drinking which he has had trouble giving up. Not so much the drinking,though.
But, he'd been going to the meetings and assemblies, when at one of these he was spotted having a crafty fag out side the hall by a member of another congregation, who grassed him to the elders. He had a public reproof, which has now turned into a D/F as he was baptised all those years ago.
This made me angry. Why persecute an 80 year old man when there is raving peados in the org getting away with it??? Keeping the congregation clean?? Bollocks to that when that is happening.
Mum seems quite upbeat about it...maybe it's her meds kicking in....but I was worried about her being cut off from her life and nobody being in touch. Rang her last night and she told me not to worry, she will be looked after. We'll see....there'll be words if not.
Need to go over and buy my Dad a beer.
Hi folks,
Quick update. Mum and Dad have to move as they can't manage the stairs and really need 24/7 care now. We've been over there helping them pack and will go over for the move, however, plenty of Bruvs have been coming in to see my Mum and offer help. It was nice to see them greeting my dad as well. Maybe shunning is on the wain?? One sister came in gave a cheery hello G....and held his hand for a while, which I thought was nice.
I have recruited an army of sisters to help them unpack at the new flat, be interesting to see how many turn up.
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
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Ian Gillan 1970
status offlinesolitaire
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Maybe shunning is on the wain??
MMmm as much as I would love to think that.....I think it is more down to the natural compassion of the individuals concerned rather than any 'loving' turnaround on the part of the organisation....
Try as they might, they can never totally eradicate a humans natural empathy with others (thank goodness!!!)
I understand totally about your parents needing a greater degree of care.......and I really hope that they turn out to help, regardless of their motives, I know how hard it is for you to see them getting older and needing assistance......but at least they have each other and that will help them to adjust to wherever they live smiley: smile
Hope the move goes well x
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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It's about time
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status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Billy Sugger wrote:
Hey you, out there on your own,sitting naked by the phone, can you hear me?
Just had to!!
smiley: laugh ...... one of my favourites .... so in reply young BillyAndy (or is that AndyBilly ?) .......
Hey you, with you ear against the wall
Waiting for someone to call out
Would you touch me?
Hey you, would you help me to carry the stone?
Open your heart, I'm coming home.
Not such a bad song to have stuck in your head eh!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineBilly Sugger
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Very nice, and easy to play as well. It would have been frowned upon at one point, I can remember The Wall being mentioned in one of the regular assembly talks about debasing music, along with Cat Scratch Fever by Ted Nugent. No problems with that now!!!
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
status offlineThe Villain
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Thats so funny, I remember someone saying something about The Wall at a circuit assembly when I was a kid.
If an Elder found the music on my device now, hed probably have to go get re-baptized again just to feel clean.
True story.
V
status offlineBilly Sugger
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Hey Villan,
Me too.Plenty of Black Sabbath,Motorhead, Metallica, Purple, Zep, Heep, Floyd and much more,all of which say 'leave the truth'in backward masking.
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
status offlineSailAway
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solitaire
Hubby and I love sailing (another shameless request for a sailing icon
Here's a couple to be going on with Di image Will, look for more when I have time..........(sorry that in one hubby has a pilgrims hat on lol!!!)
image
image
image (oops thats a bit of a biggun image)
Lol! Thanks a million, Sam! I guess the pilgrim hat will be reserved for Thanksgiving here in the US! The middle guy looks like a Lego sailor dude! Glad I stopped by to check on Billy/Andy and say, Ahoy! Mate!
status offlineBilly Sugger
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See, I am good for some things....like being the artifact for sailing emoticons.....or what ever they are called. Now I haven't checked myself, are there any heavy metal/music/guitar ones??
That must be a free ride on your boat then Sail away. *packs rubber ring just in case*
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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I was out before The Wall was knocked about by the dubs ....... and before Smurfs were considered evil ............................... but I do remember the kerfuffle it raised when my bro and I bought the Saturday Night Fever soundtrack! We used to invite other teen jdubs to our house after meetings for toasted cheese sandwiches and a dance to the music! We were SO bad!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineThe Villain
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I remember once when a bunch of JDubs where at a pizza joint and one of the kids went over to the jukebox and played Michael Jacksons Thriller and an elder got up from our enormous island of tables we had rafted together and walked over to the manager and asked him to unplug the jukebox. When the manager said no, he threatened to take all 30 people to another eatery that wasnt injecting the devils music into his childrens heads.
Then he tried to place a Watchtower with the guy.
WTF lol.
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rawe wrote:
-Randy
ps. Wendy found the pressure of the "responsible child bearing" fairly stifling, due to her desire to have children. Fortunately, we just went ahead anyway. Of all the good things in life, my four daughters are one of the greatest!
Ugh. My sister is a rabid Witness, and childless for precisely that reason. Soon though.... Armageddon's right around the corner....
Ugh.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Ahh yes Clunker ..... the old 'soon' thing! My parents were frowned on for having four kids 'knowing Armageddon is soon ...... woe to the pregnant woman' blah blah. Then after 1975 came and went ..... we ended up with a little bro aka woe to the pregnant woman baby no.5! Oops I feel sad for the diehards who put off having kids.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Hi Clunker & Andria,
Ugh. My sister is a rabid Witness, and childless for precisely that reason. Soon though.... Armageddon's right around the corner....Ugh.
A young married couple about our age, was interviewed by the local newspaper, the Cariboo Observer as part of a series about faiths in Quesnel. The wife, I was fairly sure, had a soft spot for wishing to be a mother one day, but nonetheless made a comment about not having children in the newspaper. I thought it would be great fun as a tease for when they had children like us -- so I clipped out the article. But... they stuck to their guns and kept up with pioneering and never did have children. Of course I don't know, there may have been other issues, besides the faith.
Wendy and I once cared for a friend's house for a couple weeks while they were away. They were LDS (Mormon). It was interesting reading a small tract from them, that put considerable pressure on young married couples to not hold off having children. I joked with Wendy, that was the religion for her!
Of course, either approach is not good, considering how personal such a decision really is. I have often wondered if some LDS members resent the pressure, especially if they feel their circumstances don't allow them to have children.
Cheers,
-Randy
Last Edited By: rawe Nov 22 13 11:52 PM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineSailAway
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raweHi Clunker & Andria,
Ugh. My sister is a rabid Witness, and childless for precisely that reason. Soon though.... Armageddon's right around the corner....Ugh.
A young married couple about our age, was interviewed by the local newspaper, the Cariboo Observer as part of a series about faiths in Quesnel. The wife, I was fairly sure, had a soft spot for wishing to be a mother one day, but nonetheless made a comment about not having children in the newspaper. I thought it would be great fun as a tease for when they had children like us -- so I clipped out the article. But... they stuck to their guns and kept up with pioneering and never did have children. Of course I don't know, there may have been other issues, besides the faith.
Wendy and I once cared for a friend's house for a couple weeks while they were away. They were LDS (Mormon). It was interesting reading a small tract from them, that put considerable pressure on young married couples to not hold off having children. I joked with Wendy, that was the religion for her!
Of course, either approach is not good, considering how personal such a decision really is. I have often wondered if some LDS members resent the pressure, especially if they feel their circumstances don't allow them to have children.
Cheers,
-Randy
Years ago I knew an Irish Catholic woman who was pregnant with her 8th child. She was a stay-at-home mom with very young children. Her husband worked long hours. She was lonely and overwhelmed. She was distraught and severely depressed over having another baby. Her husband was authoritarian, bordering on, if not abusive based on what she told me. He had an air of a bully about him. He was definitely playing the headship card-- this is my house, my rules. She considered abortion long and hard, buy ultimately couldn't do it. At the time I just listened. I didn't feel I had the right to weigh in on such a heavy decision. We have lost touch. I think of this poor woman every now and then and wonder how she is doing. She clearly resented the pressure to have more kids from her church and her husband.
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Billy SuggerNow, don't get me wrong. I don't hate the witnesses, I've seen some of the controlling things they do, read about them on here and other sites, but still don't hold any malice towards them. Mum is still a witness, we have a great relationship with her, she's accepted my situation, accepted my lady, in fact told me she prefers this one to my ex......I still get the mags of her, if it helps towards her ministry then I'm glad to help as she can't get out due to ill health. Dad is studying again after nearly 50 years out. My sister is out, my son is out and we have a superb relationship with them all. But I have no intention of going back full time...too much of a hippy to do that now...I may go to an assembly to be with Mum one day and freak them all out with my long hair and hippy coat...I'm not a beige person anymore thank goodness.
So there we are, in a nutshell. Happy to be free to be me.
image Billy Sugger, How are you doing? I re-read your OP and saw that your dad is studying again after 50 years out-- that is incredible. How did that happen? Your mum sounds amazing!
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” ― Marcus Aurelius
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Hi Sail....
Yeah,Mum is amazing, she near enough brought us up singlehandedly. Dad never opposed us but was just indifferent, used to ferry us to and from the meetings etc...he's had more time on his hands since he retired and one or two things have maybe made him think. He's not well, having a Respiratory disease plus he was attending meetings and still smoking didn't help. He was spotted smoking and was visited by 2 elders.....he is still a baptised bro,never got D/F'd.....and I think that made him do it. Respect to him if that's what he wants.
Mum also isn't well,having osteoperosis and various other old age ailments, but she keeps going and battling on. She did get to the big meeting the other week and she was sooooo happy to go, I was happy for her.
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Randy ..... I just finished watching an interesting BBC documentary (it's a few years old) about Mormon singles and the pressure they have from within their own religion to go forth and meet their 'eternal' partner and have lots of kids! Interestingly .... the men are encouraged to get good jobs or have successful businesses, so that they have enough money to keep their families. Material wealth isn't a dirty word in that church. Makes a change eh.
BillyAndy ..... my aging parents still pop off to their local hall when they're up to it. I no longer discuss religion with my mum (haven't for years .. it's a sore point for her) but used to chat to my dad about it. Sadly that no longer happens either. My dad wouldn't be in it at all given a little more self-assurance and courage .... it's a habit for both of them to go to meetings now.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineBilly Sugger
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Morning folks,
Update. I did say Dad was studying again, and doing well. Some of that knowledge that was installed years ago was still there as his study conductor found out. However, he had nearly 50 years out and got into smoking and drinking which he has had trouble giving up. Not so much the drinking,though.
But, he'd been going to the meetings and assemblies, when at one of these he was spotted having a crafty fag out side the hall by a member of another congregation, who grassed him to the elders. He had a public reproof, which has now turned into a D/F as he was baptised all those years ago.
This made me angry. Why persecute an 80 year old man when there is raving peados in the org getting away with it??? Keeping the congregation clean?? Bollocks to that when that is happening.
Mum seems quite upbeat about it...maybe it's her meds kicking in....but I was worried about her being cut off from her life and nobody being in touch. Rang her last night and she told me not to worry, she will be looked after. We'll see....there'll be words if not.
Need to go over and buy my Dad a beer.
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
status offlinesolitaire
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Good grief Andy!! I see some things never change *sigh*
You would think that if their main objective was to encourage the 'stray sheep' back into the fold.......they could ignore what is essentially a very addictive habit, in order to look after the more important fact that your dad was as least attending meetings again smiley: mad
They just can't help their santimonious selves can they??!! In a way I am glad they keep shooting themselves in the foot........the higher they put their 'bar', hopefully the less people will be bothered to even try and leap over it!!
Funny, that reminded me of my late father (I was raised in a divided household lol!!).......he only used to attend the memorial once a year to please my jw mum (probably to increase the odds of getting his conjugal rights smiley: wink).......but he was a life-long smoker, and would always be stood outside the hall with a roll-up..........of course as he had never been a jw, people were falling over themselves to welcome him, and would stand outside talking to him whilst inhaling his old holborn fumes smiley: tongue
But then we all know that love-bombing only applies before you are ensnared smiley: sick
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status onlineKBG
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Andy,
I do need to chastise you. Were you really expecting them to live out the spirit of Jesus teachings over the mandates of the Octapope?
;-)
Hope you and Dad enjoyed a good new brew or an old favorite.
status offlineBilly Sugger
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Duly chastised K.......I need a beer now.
I shall have one with Dad when I get over there.
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Goodness me ... so they still behave like adolescent cigarette-nazis eh AndyBilly? Your poor old dad ..... how juvenile for them to treat him that way and then to chuck him out. Pathetic aren't they.
When you buy your dad a beer ... make sure you buy him one from us too!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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It's about time
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offlineBilly Sugger
It's about time
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Nov 1 13 5:29 AM
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I've been on here a few weeks now so it is about time I said hello properly. It's a bit long winded but there ya go.
I'm now 53, and a born in with 4 generations past. My Great Grandfather started a congregation in Stanley, County Durham. His daughter was a witness as was my Dad,who fell away not long after marrying mum. Then came us, Myself, my Brother and my Sister.
I bimbled along, giving talks, out on FS, but my heart was never in it. Without blowing my own trumpet.....OK, I might, just a bit.....I became good at impromptu talks because I couldn't be bothered to do too much research. I have a quick mind and love to play with words, so if I could make a talk interesting with props and funny stories then people may remember the theme. The amount of times the school overseer said 'it's obvious you spent a lot of time preparing this talk'....and I'd smirk inside.
I did find though that if you weren't popular or part of the in crowd, despite my wife pioneering and myself doing the duties of an elder...was. never appointed...skin of the teeth job....that you weren't included. After moving back to a cong we were in when we got married our son was D/F'd and our daughter decided to stop going as well, we found we were treated as if we'd been D/F'd, which was a bit disconcerting. Depression set in, found couldn't cope with even the simplest of tasks, out of work, debts building and hardly any social life. So I moved to Guernsey to get work on the buses, 25k a year, I'd send money home to pay off the debts and work all the hours I could. The district convention there in 2006.....or could have been 5...was the last time I went to a meeting. I wasn't D/F'd or D/A'd I just drifted. Mind you we had started to drift before I moved, neither of us could be bothered, we were starting to make friends outside the org and enjoyed their company and have a better time going to gigs and such..I've always gone to gigs mind and music is a passion of mine which is another story.....but I digress. Soon after going to guernsey which was only supposed to be for 6 months...turned into 3 years...after which my wife and I separated. We were leading different lives...one day we'll get divorced.
I am now with a wonderful lady I met in Guernsey, we've been together 6 years now and she just lets me be me. We have a passion in the same tastes in music....Classic rock....we go on holidays we enjoy which includes going on naturist beaches...again another story to be told....She encouraged me to pick up the guitar again, I've written songs, had a CD out and now play in a band. Depression??? Near enough none existent, although I do have the occasional bad day.
Now, don't get me wrong. I don't hate the witnesses, I've seen some of the controlling things they do, read about them on here and other sites, but still don't hold any malice towards them. Mum is still a witness, we have a great relationship with her, she's accepted my situation, accepted my lady, in fact told me she prefers this one to my ex......I still get the mags of her, if it helps towards her ministry then I'm glad to help as she can't get out due to ill health. Dad is studying again after nearly 50 years out. My sister is out, my son is out and we have a superb relationship with them all. But I have no intention of going back full time...too much of a hippy to do that now...I may go to an assembly to be with Mum one day and freak them all out with my long hair and hippy coat...I'm not a beige person anymore thank goodness.
So there we are, in a nutshell. Happy to be free to be me.
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
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Nov 1 13 7:34 AM
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Welcome to the board. Glad your experience wasnt as horrifying as some of ours where. Its nice to know there are people who got out of that cult without a shitload of emotional baggage.
Have a great day!
V
PS: First!
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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May your long hair grow longer and your hippy coat remain hippy!
Thanks heaps for adding your story. There's never an obligation to do so nor a rush ... however it's always interesting to find out the 'back' stories of our fellow members.
I also don't hold any malice towards the jdubs themselves ... because they've all been so cruelly duped and highly indoctrinated in what they believe. It's tough to negotiate family members at times ... but I have steadfastly refused to allow the religion to whack a wedge between me and them. Sadly this has happened a times and will continue to happen depending on the tone of the mags they read from week to week ...... but on the whole, I feel sorry for those stuck in the borg, not malice.
I'm glad that you've found your lovely lady ... it's an absolute joy being with someone who allows you to be yourself isn't it! I have my someone like that too ... and we've been together for 21 years and still going strong.
Great to have you with us Billy ....................
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinesolitaire
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Nov 2 13 4:25 AM
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Hi Billy :-)
thanks for sharing some of your background.......as others have said, thankfully your parents seem to realise that you should love your children enough to let them choose their own paths, but still be there for them....
Unfortunately some parents take on board the 'harder stance' and cut off contact with their offspring.......hoping it will have the desired effect of forcing them to return to the fold....and therein lies much of the heartache and anger that many ex-jw's are left with....
You sound really happy and chilled.......I haven't been to Guernsey, but I love Jersey......sounds like its a great place to live!!
Hope you enjoy your time here
Sam
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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Nov 2 13 5:40 AM
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An official image to the forum, Billy Sugger! You sound a lot like my hubby! The only way he could stand the boredom at the KH was to ignore his talk schedule (including service meeting parts when he was a MS). When they called his name, he would grab his Bible and KM and head for the stage. The "friends" always loved his lively and informative talks! Good grief, he was raised-in since he was five years old, FT pioneered and went to Bethel-- just open your Bible and Blah, Blah, Blah. Good enough!
You are so right, if you don't fit the perfect JW family profile, you are ostracized. It happened to us as a couple too. After my hubby faded, I was a social outcast. When our daughter DA'd by her actions, and our son was DF'd, I might as well have been a ghost. Of course, I was still implored to help the "spiritually weak", the sick and aged ones, do KH cleanups, KH garden maintenance (after an elder that was in the landscaping business took an electric hedge trimmers to the rhododendrons) and pioneer. No pressure.
I'm so glad that you have found a passion in life and someone to share it with! image Hubby and I love sailing (another shameless request for a sailing icon image) together with my dog (stage left)!
The 14th-century Persian poet Hafiz wrote:
Every child has known God,
Not the God of names,
Not the God of don'ts,
Not the God who ever does anything weird,
But the God who knows only four words,
And keeps repeating them, saying:
"Come Dance with Me."
Come Dance
status offlinerawe
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Nov 2 13 6:31 AM
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Hi Billy,
Welcome!
Now, don't get me wrong. I don't hate the witnesses, I've seen some of the controlling things they do, read about them on here and other sites, but still don't hold any malice towards them. Mum is still a witness, we have a great relationship with her, she's accepted my situation, accepted my lady, in fact told me she prefers this one to my ex......I still get the mags of her, if it helps towards her ministry then I'm glad to help as she can't get out due to ill health.
I think this is generally true of most who leave the faith. When we look back we continue to see the good in many of the folks we knew and our family members. The problem is with a leadership that is willing to tell people untruths and make incredible self-indulgent claims, such as being the sole channel of God's communication on earth today, all on the pain of being shunned if you disagree.
I'm glad to hear you still have a good relationship with your mum.
Cheers,
-Randy
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Welcome Billy!
It IS nice when someone can walk away from the org. without hatred or bitterness. Seems to me that when there is a lot of emotional baggage, it's always because their closest family members have shunned them. Hard to be offhanded about it when your own parents, or worse, your own children won't speak with you.
I'm a fellow 4th generation JW as well! 51 now. Left when I was 45. Was at one time part of the "cool" group (when my husband was an elder and I was a reg. pio. and we were being groomed for the circuit work), but eventually slipped and became relegated to the very uncool, last rows of the KH people (they were the much more interesting ones, IMO!).
But to quote a great song, "And then one day you find ten years have got behind you; no one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun." And I realized too much time had been frittered and wasted and how ever many years I had left I wanted to live happily and authentically.
So good for you! Need to hear more about those beaches!
Valerie
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Hi Valerie,
You may have mentioned it elsewhere, but I didn't know you and your husband were being targeted for CO work. Did you guys ever do substitute CO work? I can't imagine what it would be like to start to have doubts while at that level -- since ones life would be so wrapped up in the entirety of the faith.
Cheers,
-Randy
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Hey Randy -
We didn't get that far because I went and got me...yes, the horror of it!...PREGNANT!
My husband (Gene) started getting assigned talks at every assembly and was made head of various departments. Our CO was pretty cool and he and his wife always stayed with us when they came to town. You could tell he was excited to have a good prospect in us. He knew I was feeling torn about the traveling work and wanting to have kids. He told us that there was absolutely nothing wrong with wanting children (despite the District Convention talk "Responsible Child-Bearing in the Time of the End) but that we needed to, in effect, pee or get off the pot. Either have children or decide to take the "troooth" to the next level.
He was the first person we told when I got pregnant. He was very happy for us.
Believe me, I have thought about how difficult it would have been to want to leave the org. if we had reached that level. We became "uncool" when my husband "stepped down" (I HATE that expression!) from being an elder when our marriage was in trouble and he knew he had no business spending so much time on cong. stuff when his family was falling apart. We became non-entities after that. Aw, how the mighty have fallen!!
Valerie
status offlineBilly Sugger
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I tell you what, you lovely people, some wonderful replys there.
One of the turning points, if you like, was when I had a study with a friend of mine who was an archeologist. She was curious, said she had no intention of becoming a witness but we had some lively studies. She brought up what she called 'inconvenient dates' after finding out we believed man had been on the Earth for only 6000 years, she said she'd held in her hands items that had been dated at 14,000 years old and were definitely man made. So I came back with the materials were 14,000 years old, but she counteracted with having found them in rock or ground that had been dated at 14,000 years old.....got me thinking, I tell ya. Interesting subject.
Still,I'm here, I'm alive, I'm happy. I still have some pals who are witnesses and get e mails occasionally from them, I miss some of them and look forward to seeing them soon.
Of course, Billy isn't my real name, neither is sugger......just being a silly bugger he he.
Valerie.....put it on your bucket list to get onto a naturist beach.....just wonderful!!
Andy.
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
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Hi Andy,
She brought up what she called 'inconvenient dates' after finding out we believed man had been on the Earth for only 6000 years, she said she'd held in her hands items that had been dated at 14,000 years old and were definitely man made.
For a long while I thought our beliefs were fairly reasonable since we didn't hold to a literal 24-hour creative day. But 4026 BCE (Witnesses wind up adding 20+ years to the 4004 BCE date, mostly because of 607 vs 587 issue) date for Adam's creation and 2370 BCE date for Noah's flood is well within the range of archaeology and in the case of the flood, actual known history. It is also true mitochondrial DNA is passed unchanged from generation to generation since it is found only in the female egg cell (i.e. no sperm changes the mtDNA sequence). Thus we should all have copies of Eve's mtDNA. Alas, in the real world the amount of variation in mtDNA that would occur through mutation demands a much longer time frame.
Cheers,
-Randy
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Hi Valerie,
We became "uncool" when my husband "stepped down" (I HATE that expression!) from being an elder
When I resigned as an elder (due to doubts about God's existence and non-negative views regarding the theory of evolution) all my privileges were taken away, even being allowed to say prayer. Nonetheless, I felt the brothers did not treat me that much different -- it was a sort of sorry this is what we have to do and we'll give back privs as soon as we can. But... I now realize that when our oldest daughter was having issues, deleted as a pioneer, etc, there was a big advantages for children if their father was an elder. He could do a lot to explain/justify actions of his child.
I think it is also true (unfortunately) that sometimes jealously gets involved. Thus when an elder who has done a fair bit and been visible gets the axe, there are some who will revel a bit in that. It is good to be rid of all that :)
Cheers,
-Randy
ps. Wendy found the pressure of the "responsible child bearing" fairly stifling, due to her desire to have children. Fortunately, we just went ahead anyway. Of all the good things in life, my four daughters are one of the greatest!
Last Edited By: rawe Nov 2 13 1:05 PM. Edited 1 times.
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Valerie, you had a "circuit breaker!" image
The 14th-century Persian poet Hafiz wrote:
Every child has known God,
Not the God of names,
Not the God of don'ts,
Not the God who ever does anything weird,
But the God who knows only four words,
And keeps repeating them, saying:
"Come Dance with Me."
Come Dance
status offlineCacky
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Hi and welcome, Andy. Nice to meet you. I came in to the org at age 21 and left at 51 once I learned the TATT (truth about the "truth"). I'm glad for you that your family isn't shunning you. Not all have it so well. There is a guy who writes a blog, Cedars' Blog and JW Survey who had been undercover but has recently come out with his dad and in-laws, and they will now be shunning him. It seems to be rather traumatic for him. I feel for those whose families are shunning them. My two daughters shunned me for a bit, but no longer do and say they won't in the future. We have an understanding, we just don't talk religion.
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SailAway wrote:
Valerie, you had a "circuit breaker!" image
Rollinglaughing devil
Randy - That was a TERRIBLE talk. I got rather depressed afterwards. Then one day at our state fair, sitting in the beer garden, my husband looked at me and said "Let's have a baby." I think I was pregnant before I finished my beer!! Two of the finest boys who ever have walked the face of the earth are lucky that their parents were not very sheeplike!
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Hey Andy -
I've been thinking about your post and how relatively easy it was for you to walk away without a lot of angst. I'm going to make a sweeping generalization, but I think there might be some truth to it.
I sort of wonder if it isn't easier for men to leave the org. than it is for women. My husband was a pot-smoking hippie back in the early 70's when someone gave him a "Truth" book (the little blue one, remember?) and then proceeded to give the next 38 years of his life to the org. He did what he was told to do; he reached out, he conducted a family study, he took notes at assemblies, etc. But even at the height of his spirituality, he never seemed to get into it emotionally. He didn't get all excited about "new truths", but he didn't get upset or angry at things he didn't agree with. He privately did what he wanted to do; like we watched R-rated movies or skipped out of meetings on beautiful summer days. I, on the other hand, agonized over every little thing. I would get all excited about things like new releases, and I would get really angry when the society would come out with another stupid rule. I kept going years after I didn't think I could go another day. I worried and fretted and got all stressed out.
I quit first; my husband kept at it a few months. Then one night, instead of going to the meeting, he came downstairs with a drink in his hand and plopped next to me on the couch. "Aren't you going?" "No, I want to watch tv instead." And he never went back.
We talk about it all the time, and he has come to believe it's a cult and he is disgusted by the things he's learned. But he was able to just walk away without struggling at all. He has said that he just doesn't think he's a spiritual person. He did what he thought was right, until he didn't think it was right anymore. End of story for him.
So do you think that's true with men more so than women?
Valerie
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Nice to hear your story Billy. Thanks for visiting the site-70wks....
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Hubby and I love sailing (another shameless request for a sailing icon
Here's a couple to be going on with Di smiley: smile Will, look for more when I have time..........(sorry that in one hubby has a pilgrims hat on lol!!!)
Captain-smiley-emoticon
Sailing
Sailing-pilgrims (oops thats a bit of a biggun smiley: tongue)
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Valerie, I think it depends on the man or the woman for that matter. Some women can walk away and just get on with their new way of life, whereas others struggle and wonder if they did the right thing ... or that they DID do the right thing but should have done it much sooner. I'm sure men are much the same. Perhaps women are targeted more with the emotional blackmail from jdub rellies and friends etc ... because we're more emotional about things and would be more inclined to feel guilty?
Andy aka Billy ...... most of us use different names in here, it's the way of the forum world. I'm Rhon (Rhonda) ... Andria ... or hey you!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineBilly Sugger
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Hey you, out there on your own,sitting naked by the phone, can you hear me?
Just had to!!
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
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Rhonda would love that. lol
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A story just like most of yours
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offlineCowboyBob
A story just like most of yours
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=12pxFirstly I have lurked on here for about the past three hours and read some of your stories and I thank you all so much for sharing them
I was brought into the supposed "truth" at age seven all I remember is that one moment there are strange visitors at my parents home and then we are going to meetings and a book study I asked why and was told because this is what we believe now like you change overnight
My Grandmother (a really lovely lady) was involved previously when in england and so was my mother but basically with in 4 months my parents were baptized and all hell broke lose
My father was always a b*****d but now he had support at that .... I admit I wasnt a model witness I was a usual kid who asked a lot of why questions ....and by the age of twelve I was abused daily for not conforming to regulations....I didnt want to do the talks I was forced to do my first talk at twelve a bible reading ... from then on I had already suffered severe anxiety since I was about eight years old this pushed me over the edge I muddled my way through the talk and spent the rest of the night in the carpark in tears ....I suffered severe depression and when my father spoke to the "elders" It was the devil causing my depression.....but we were in a smaller congretation but it was full of back stabbing and gossip.
My father became a MS and things got worse I ran away from home and lived with my grandparents (grandma) was in Jw I was still forced to attend but I wasnt abused here
I suffered sever depression and was admited to a mental facility by my parents ended up being released and the first thing they expected me to do was to get up and do talks etc again
over this period pretty much every second sunday after the meeting my father was called into a meeting with the elders over their expectations of him and his family (as we only had a small car) my father would take grandma so my mother would only attend rarely although she was expected to go in field service etc
I was expected to pioneer at age 15 although schooling and working .... there was a big push for me to go to bethel...why i dont understand I had other things on my mind .....but like most JW kids I end up with a crap education mental health issues and cant stay far enough away from them ....
it took me so long to realise that the people that would always be closest to you in the congretation were the biggest back stabbers my parents didnt have much money they never did ....yet "if you cant pay into the building fund maybe you could pitch in more around the congretation" and things like that
When I got baptised i didnt realise what i was getting myself into ..... the life of expectations and rules and regulations ....because we lived in a rural area as well as bullying in the congretation and abuse at home I was bullied at school and in my young working days at work and I agree with you IT IS A CULT a brainwashing to manipulate people
after the best part of 18 years I had myself d/a'd and I havent looked back the worst thing that sticks is after about 15 years i still can recite all the books of the bible and about 15 scriptures I refuse to even own a bible these days ....I wont let my kids do religious education as all religion is a lie
sorry this is long
Thank you for letting me share
status offlinesg75
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Welcome!imageDon't be sorry about your story being long; what matters is that you feel safe enough to share. The folks here are very accepting and I hope you'll feel at home. I'm sorry you had such a crappy childhood. JWs are good for that, sucking the joy out of life and replacing it with stress and fear.
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image ( person who's user name for some reason I'm not getting) glad you found us. It is pretty sad that your story seems similar to that of other people here. But it does seem like jws all stress while sucking the fun out of everything. Well the good news is that your out of the cult and can get on with your life.image
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Hello there Bob and welcome to the board :-)
Believe me, if you have read some of our stories yours is positively short lol!! After all, how can you condense all the experiences contained within your live as a jw in anything less than a few volumes ??!!
Now that you have started, I am sure that there are many more stories for you to share.....and its always great to meet someone new and hear their take on things smiley: smile Congrats on escaping the mind control of the organisation....not an easy move when you have been brainwashed as a child, as so many of us were!!
the worst thing that sticks is after about 15 years i still can recite all the books of the bible
Lol Bob.....that is only the worst thing till we start reciting the words from the songbook and the tunes get back in your head........see!! you're remembering aren't you??!! smiley: smokin
Look forward to hearing more from you and getting to know you better
Sam x
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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You are welcome here Bob! Thanks for your story and glad you
saw the real light.
How that religion messes with the mind and family life! It is an appalling cult isn’t it? The good bit is that we don’t have to agree with it and you can be very happy that you are free from the crazy beliefs.
How are your relations with your family now?
Where are you from...cowboy country by any chance?
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status onlineKBG
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Hey Bob,
Welcome, My folks joined when I was your age, they were not abusive, but, I did fantasize about living with my grandparents and escaping the craziness of JWs.
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Hi Cowboy Bob!!! Thank you for sharing your story! Many of us born/raised in kiddos suffered (and still suffer) with anxiety and depressions.
It is a heavy load for the adults who join, and even more impossible to live up to as a child.
The bullying within the congregation is something I've learned is sadly quite commonplace, as is the backstabbing. Many seem to thrive on 'one upping' others to make themselves appear better.
....and none of us baptized as children/ minors could ever have understood the heaviness of such a 'commitment.'
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Hi there Bob and welcome aboard! It's always a pleasure to have someone new to play with.
I'm of the born-in variety of former jdub ... and didn't realise I was different to the rest of the world's kids until I headed off to Grade 1 at school. Now that is a baptism of fire for the innocent little jdub kidlets!
There is so much pressure put on kids within the framework of the jdub cult ...... which makes it harder for those with anxieties of any level and certainly can (and often does) lead to depression. You are well rid of that lot and like you ... my kids are not exposed to religious classes or anything of a religious nature when they're out of our house. It still makes me laugh years later that my boys (the youngest is still there for the rest of this year) attend the same primary school I used to and don't do religious education either ... but for very different reasons. My parents had me and my siblings excluded from RE classes because of course only their religion was 'the truth' and there weren't any dedicated jdubs willing to run the gauntlet of RE classes .................... and MY kids are excluded because we're both atheists and don't want our boys exposed to even 'harmless' RE classes!!!!
I look forward to getting to read more about you! Have fun in here ..................
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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As you probably know or are learning, IT GETS BETTER. Been out 40 years and still have some flash backs but just laugh at them now.
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Welcome CowboyBob, I'm glad you escaped the WTB$ after all. They are a vile corporation and damage many a good mind and break up families. Chin up chap!
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
status offlinemytruth
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I totally agree! If I have kids I wouldn't want them being taught the bible, although my aunt made a good point. She said she taught her 8 year old son how to reason and how to always dig and find answers and always accept everyone is different and that's okay! And she had so much faith in her son that she doesn't care now what he is taught by anyone because she believes he will have the strength and knowledge to never be a witness haha cuz you have to be pretty blind to be one let's be real.
status offlineApostateProud
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I really appreciate your post. Though I was never physically abused, I was mentally abused constantly. As most teenage girls are, I was interested in boys and girls sexually from as long as I can remember. Every time I was caught holding hands with or kissing a boy at school, a fellow schoolmates/witness would tell his elders, who told our elders, who told my dad (also a Witness). I was forced to not only describe to my parents all of my sexual actions and thoughts, but also panels of elders. Roughly ever 6 months from 13 on I was in the back room telling these old men all about my sex life, not only what I was doing, but fantasies, etc. You'd think that as an elder, my father would want to shelter me from the meetings he himself was conducting with other young people in the KH. Instead he was the first one on the phone rounding up a group of elders to badger me. How sick! I'm glad you got out and are finally free. I have no interest in religion ever again and will fight to the death to keep my daughter away from this sick cult! Stay strong, we all support you!
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Hi Bob and welcome to the board. It's nice to meet you. Thanks for sharing your story.
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Hey Bob thanks for telling your story. Good to have you here man.
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jw distrust ion of the family
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offlinefaith
jw distrust ion of the family
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Aug 31 14 4:37 AM
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The most harmful thing they do to a person is destroy the family unit. I have been an ex jw since 1994. Born in to this religion raised and exec baptized when I was 13. My eyes where opened and I became a Christian not long after. I was discarded like trash and they declared war on me. I have a been happily married for 20 yrs. My way of coping with the lose was to walk way. I have watched my brothers and sisters grow families on Facebook. Now it is back to haunt me as my mother is sick. I know this is what they do they isolate their slaves to keep them in bond age. No true religion would have to separate family to keep them. I learned through this tragedy my niece is there perfect drone. 19 years old home schooled and isolated from the outside never allowed to think for herself. It will take gods intervention to save her. Please pray for her.
status offlinehalf banana
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Hi Faith and welcome to the forum. You are right; they isolate and enslave people. Why should anything at all come between family members? To claim that it is Gods will that this shunning must be practiced is to make one question the truthfulness of what Jehovah’s Witnesses believe and why they believe it.
Sorry you have suffered and all the best in dealing with your sick mother.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status offlineKefka6
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hi faith, welcome, I'm sorry to hear about what this cult has done to you and your family, and also about your mother. As for your niece we, a lot of teenagers are leaving the org, hopefully your niece is just faking being interested and will soon leave just like you did.
status offlineCacky
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Hi Faith and welcome. Sorry the org has had such a bad impact on you. You are certainly not alone.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Hi Faith and welcome .....
I also agree with the others. Any religion or group of people who isolate family members from one another ... is not a religion or group of people who preach or teach love. That is a religion or group of people who promote superiority ... fear ... emotional blackmail. Not my cup of tea and not yours either!
I live in hope that the jdubs who do allow themselves time on the evil internet and who do trawl their way through bookface ....... will trip over something that makes them think about how they're living. All it takes is one tiny little seed of doubt .... and whoops a daisy ..... up comes the next one. And the next one!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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so I've been reading the elders manual
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offlineKefka6
so I've been reading the elders manual
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Sep 27 14 8:55 AM
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And wow is that thing crazy, im barely on page 24 and finished a section talking about how to emotionally manipu... er... I mean encourage young ones by pretending to care about their problems while at the same time " make them feel wanted".
and then there was an experience about how elders are supposed to take a healthy interest, especially to the "fatherless ones".
i wonder how many elders can see how emotionally manipulative this advise is?????? Anyway back to reading the crazy
status offlinebirdwoman2
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elders are supposed to take a healthy interest, especially to the "fatherless ones".
It certainly is obvious from the number of child sex abuse cases in court out there, that more than one elder has taken that counsel far more seriously than they are legally entitled to.
If I was the mother of a 'fatherless one', the last person I would allow around my child is an elder who was expressing 'healthy' (?) interest in them.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
- Frederic Bastiat
status offlinejerryjax99
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Yea, it is an eye-opener a bit for sure. I really did scoff at the "self-abuse" when I came across that...it makes me think it isn't a big issue among JWs than I really thought. However, I can see where that can clearly bring up a lot of other "serious" concerns for the one involved. Ugh, I just hate how many of my past friends had to talk to elders about that subject in detail to "confess their sin"...so damn involved in something that shouldn't be.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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When my now RIP beloved aunt died, she had been df years before and even in those days they wanted to know every detail about her 'sin'. She refused answering all their questions, knowing most of the elders at a personal level and they were not going to get any more information. It came down to she would not answer all their questions although she was pregnant out of marriage at the time. She would eventually marry a man that gave the child his name, raising him as his own...but the church would never accept my aunt again UNLESS she confessed and ask for salvation from the church.
Ya, I'm reading through the elders manual too. I finally had to put it down and get busy with other things. Sickening too say the least!
I'd like telling them, "Spin your story" not all of us believe in the bible and organized religion...we will take legal action when there is a pedophile in are community.
Apparently the Borg is still doing their dirty deed...while pretending to be "God's Mouthpiece" and wonder why persons such as us don't want anything to do with their religion smiley: pimp.
Last Edited By: Linda Sep 30 14 6:18 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlinenobodyknows
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Anybody have that in PDF format? Or a link to it? I used to have it but I have no idea where it is.
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Here you go:
http://wlstorage.net/file/pay-attention-to-yourselves-and-all-the-flock-1991.pdf
status offlineCacky
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That sounds creepy to me, telling elders to take a "healthy interest" in fatherless ones.
status offlinenobodyknows
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Thanks, Birdwoman. Is that the latest one? There was an update a few years ago.
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
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Great Tribulation
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offlinebirdwoman2
Great Tribulation
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From the Study edition of November 2014 Watchtower:
75d3604a16c6b96503ba5636308da0399aca084f
17 When Gog begins the assault, Jehovah
will tell his servants: “Go, my people,
enter your inner rooms, and shut
your doors behind you. Hide yourself for
a brief moment until the wrath has
passed by.” (Isa. 26:20) At that crucial
time, Jehovah will give us lifesaving instructions,
and the “inner rooms” might
well be connected with our local congregations.
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Now watch this video:
Make the connection.
Doomsday cult.
Maybe the Society should target the survivalist culture - there must be lots of recruits out there in the hills with wi-fi connections to JW.org.
.
“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”
- Susan B. Anthony
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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I remember this kind of fear mongering going on in the early 1970's. It was basically exactly the same thing with the same scriptures used.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
status offlineinventor
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It has def stepped up the fear mongering since I was a kid in the 90's, when I was baptized in 04 it was really intensifying.
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Is this the same WT that says to treat DF'd family as if slain by the imaginary sky psycho?
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
status offlineMarked for life
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A killer god huh? That's comforting i'nnit? Maybe he lives in a volcano?
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there must be lots of recruits out there in the hills with wi-fi connections to JW.org.
smiley: roll just had a mental picture of that!!
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlinehalf banana
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What is the consequence of taking every scripture in the Bible as if it has meaning for us today?
Answer: (as the picture illustrates) paranoia, alienation, mental poverty, literal poverty, hurt, family break-ups, gross disappointment... all things in fact we see in the JW organisation.......
Wake up people!
The Bible is a book of ancient tall stories... do not base your life on anyone’s interpretations of this old book.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Aug 19 14 11:54 AM
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there must be lots of recruits out there in the hills with wi-fi connections to JW.org.
smiley: roll just had a mental picture of that!!
To help you out with that mental picture, Sam - I wonder who has this rest stop on their territory for the big August campaign that is supposed to be rolling out jw.org?
84e2673191b3b0c8562358a5d6e1c83f8e332dc5
And...to go along with the "Keep Calm" slogan that I see popping up all over JW paraphernalia and such, the lucky pioneers who got to work that territory, could make a few bucks on the side by selling a few of these to the residents:
8023681f1097bac10f285dec3a67a06e1eddca6b
...you know....to go along with this fine little necklace I found on pinterest:
fbb16316b4075036af67817db7f8e09b714f3964
Just so that they remember this:
94d362ec1fd2b263020c55823458aba0fd8cbba1
Keep calm, huh? Does this mean that the JWs won't be selling off their houses and 'serving where the need is great' during these most recent 'last times'?
I find it quite interesting to see the adoption of that particular slogan. It wasn't around in the '70s when mass hysteria hit the poor deluded sheeple of the time.
Obviously, that new marketing campaign for jw.org new makeover has ironed out a few wrinkles that ol' Freddie and Knorr had neglected to addresst during that big membership push.
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 Aug 19 14 11:57 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineinspecterD
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When you consider that they are fighting the thoughts that they were wrong about the generation who would see Armageddon before they pass away they simply have to have something to direct the rank and file to worry about. They can't really explain away the failed prophecy but they can make people anxious about sudden destruction NOW. There will, no doubt, some leave after this doesn't pan out but the others will feel like they dodged a bullet an that time has been extended so that (get this) "more like minded sheep like ones to hear of the good news of the kingdom". God's blessing for those who haven't heard will be the extending of God's time table so that they won't be destroyed but have the opportunity to hear about JW.org". LOL Seriously, I remember the worry and scurrying about in '74 because 1975 was coming and the big "A" would be here before that. Afterwards a lot of people were relieved that they were still alive and that it would happen some other year.
status offlineCee Cee
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Hey, somebody pinch that kid, he's not paying attention!
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At that crucial (weasel word) time, Jehovah will give us lifesaving instructions, (appeal to authority, the prachers 'we') and the “inner rooms” might (MASSIVE weasel word. OMG.) well be connected with our local congregations. (Appeal to authority, connecting bible fairy tales to the cult directly as a ticket to make the cult seem relevant)
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
status offlineCacky
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Aug 21 14 9:08 AM
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They're pushing the same stuff over and over again. Each new generation gets its fill of it. Keep 'em fearful so they'll stay.
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Do witnesses believe in evolution by default?
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offlineGundersen
Do witnesses believe in evolution by default?
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Oct 3 14 10:46 AM
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I remember reading a Questions from Readers on the 2013 cd-rom on why animals are carnivorous. This article tackled why animals have all these natural defenses. One of the examples was that tiger's claws may have been used to husk corn and that's possible what animals will eat in the new system. Supposedly after armagueddon all the animals will return to their "normal" instinct of not killing one another (think Isaiah's The bull will lie down with the lion and the wolf with the lamb.)
Then that leaves the question of when the heck did all these creatures develop venom, poison, neurotoxin, stingers, darts, barbs etc, at the present day. Either they were floating around with Adam and Eve in "paradise" with all this natural weaponry (unlikely) or they evolved them after the Flood which was when animals started eating each other if i'm not mistaken.
Maybe i'm just thinking about this the wrong way but theoretically doesn't the above scenario indicate that witnesses, by default, believe in evolution?
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Yes, they do, although most of them don't know that they do, and they would never use the word 'evolution' to describe it.
For the Noah's ark story to be plausible (which it isn't for reasons other than this), you must have no more than a few thousand 'kinds' of animals in the ark. The word 'kind' is not explicitly defined, but is taken to imply an invisible boundary between certain types of animal. Animals can 'adapt' (actually, evolve) within the boundaries of their 'kind', but God apparently put limits in their genes (invisible to the eyes of human geneticists) which prevents them from evolving into a different 'kind'. But in any case, in the 4,500ish years since the flood, the few thousand species in the ark had to evolve into the several million species that we have today. In reality it would take a lot longer than 4500 years for that amount of evolution to take place.
Even so, the issue of predators, parasites, and horrifically well-designed torturers in the animal kingdom (such as the Emerald Jewel Wasp), is a problem for any JW who dares to think about it, and one usually has to employ a thought-stopping cliche to suppress the cognitive dissonance that results.
Russ.
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"Greenie" Gundersen needs advice
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status offlinepunkofnice
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Sep 30 14 12:12 AM
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Hello gunders. You'll get there in the end don't worry. Yes. Fade. That's the best thing really because at least you won't be shunned too much.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
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"Greenie" Gundersen needs advice
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offlineGundersen
"Greenie" Gundersen needs advice
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Sep 12 14 7:05 PM
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Hello all
I'm new to the Forum and thought i'd share my current situation in life with regards to JW's.
I was raised as the middle child of an all JW family. My parents both got the truth at a young age in the Canadian prairies.They then special-pioneered through Quebec and settled down early in the Maratimes due to my Dad developing schizophrenia. (JW's and mental illness? Who would've thought?) They then had their three children.
I was baptised at 18. A few month later my parents seperated due to my father getting increasingly paranoid about his meds being "forced" on him. That's when I decided to move out since my father was very......controlling? and I didn't want to be a financial burden on my mother and sister (because part-time work and pioneering is SO lucrative!)
Fast-forward to two months ago when I Googled 607 B.C. on a whim. That got the mental snowball rolling. I decided if we really had the truth it would stand up to the heaviest scrutiny. Jwfacts, freeminds, JWsurvey all blew my mind. I was being told all these facts and statements but fo the first time in my life, I was encouraged to do more research and think about them for myself. All from "evil" apostates supposedly in cahoots with the devil himself. "The Gentile Times Reconsidered" was amazing although "Crisis of Conscience" is still on my to-read list.
After all this research, I knew my days in the organization were numbered. I was shocked, confused, scared. Even as I write this, I feel like the elders are going to ring the doorbell any minute and haul me off to to the "back room of death" for a Judical hearing.
Here is where I would greatly appreciate any advice from someone who's gone through this. Should I fade away considering my family relationships are alive but dwindling? Or just let them know why i'm leaving and go the dissacociating route? I am in the process of getting a full-time job and quitting the janitorial work for a brother i'm currently doing. The more ties I cut now the better, or so i've heard. As an alternate route, i've been thinking of staying in and just killing myself to give the organization the middle finger as it were but I could just be in the process of greiving after learning my whole life was a lie.
Anyway, it felt good to just get this whole thing down in writing. Any thoughts or opinions greatly appreciated. Thanks.
status offlineBilly Sugger
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Sep 13 14 12:09 AM
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Hi Gunderson.
Good to see you. I was a born in, been in for 46 years then just decided I'd had enough and couldn't do it any more. No realisation that it's all wrong, no D/F, no D/A just a nice quiet fade. You don't get harrassed, well I didn't apart from my Mum, and I still have a wonderful relationship with her now after 8 years out. The friends I used to know don't bother me much, I get a hello how are you but that's about it...any way I have a new life and new friends now.
My advice is to do that, just slip away, just fade. That way you can still have a relationship with the family, however small, and you can still make your own way in life. I didn't find out the 607 kinda stuff since I stopped going, but that has just made me more determined not to go back. Killing yourself isn't the answer, but by fading you can still raise the finger.
Plenty of folk on here who will give you support and advice, I hope you can do what you want.
Take care.
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
status offlineGundersen
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Sep 13 14 3:14 PM
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Thanks Billy. It's nice to know others have gone through this whole thing too.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Hello and welcome Gundersen ........................ always a pleasure to have new people join in the fun!
I've been out for over 30 years now and my advice would be to fade away as unobtrusively as you can. Don't engage in religious discussions and if anyone does bring the subject up or questions your faith ... enigmatically tell them that you're 'working things out' and will ask for help if you need it. That will give you some breathing space. By openly declaring you're going to disassociate yourself ... the elders will get wind of it and then they'll hassle you with visits, texts, emails or whatever ..... and the next step will be a public announcement. That's when all the rumours and innuendo will start and your family will have their ears chewed off for not keeping you in line etc etc. Fading is good!
Distancing yourself one baby step at a time is healthier for you. Find work away from the religious folk and if anyone questions it ... just say you're trying something new, you're branching out ... or picking up new skills. All of those will work. The diehards may poke a little deeper but then you can use the 'I'll get in touch with you if I need help' card.
Keep reading ... keep researching and keep asking questions. Don't blame your folks for inheriting their religion from them ... as they have been as cruelly misguided and duped as you have been. It's a cult under the guise of being a religion that is 'the truth'. Read the stories of others in here and even though they've had bumpy times since leaving too ..... you'll understand that there IS life on the outside of the WBTS and it can actually be really good! I have no regrets in walking out the way I did ... as in standing up just after a meeting started, saying it wasn't for me anymore and literally walking out ....................... do what's right for you. Good luck .... we're all here for you.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineGundersen
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Sep 13 14 7:00 PM
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Thanks AndriaSyxx.
It's nice to know that there is a life outside the hall. And that life outside doesn't always mean drug addiction or strip clubs or depression. There's so many peole on this site and others that prove that. And that's probably the biggest help of all.
Thanks everyone!!
status offlineCacky
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Hello and welcome Gunderson, I agree with fading as the best option. That way there won't be such a problem with family relationships. You may think they won't shun you, but you might be surprised. If fading is possible, I think that is the best way to go. I'm glad I didn't fade, but told my family about my discoveries, because one of my daughters, in her quest to save me and refute all the info I found, came to the realization, too, that it is not the "truth." So I'm happy she is now mentally out. But I went through a bumpy period with my two jw daughters shunning, though that has been resolved.
status offlineGundersen
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Thanks for the advice Cacky. Fading seems to be the general concensus here. Funny thing happened today at the meeting today. An elderly sister who I talk to frequently said after the watchtower that even if family members aren't disfellowshipped, if they aren't doing anything for the truth, we shoud shun them anyway. Try to be extra "faithful" I suppose.
It's kind of interesting observing the whole thing without being mentally involved. Kinda like Jane Goodall and the apes...
status offlineinspecterD
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Hi Gundersen and welcome to the forum. Fading is a popular way to leave and sometimes (not always) less traumatic for all involved. I too faded about 8+ years ago and was able to spend time with my parents in their last years. I only have one son in the Borg and he is now an elder which makes our relationship non existent. He too follows the idea you mentioned that those not doing anything in the "troof" are to be shunned too. It just is so crazy making that they can't see how Pharisaical they appear when they do it. They also ignore the scripture that says in the last days there would be those showing no natural affection. Guess they still delude themselves that they are showing love by shunning.
My hat is off to ya in being able to go to the meeting while you are fading. I simply stopped going. I have never been able to keep my face from showing my emotions in those situations so I just opted out and didn't go back. I have decided that I will never set foot in a kingdom hall ever again.
status offlineMarked for life
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Hey Gundersen and welcome!
I DA'd at a pretty young age because I was very headstrong and thought it would get alot of attention considering my parents positions in the hall. But now that I'm older and hopefully wiser, I kind of like the fade thing. Just don't kill yourself, ok? There's enough of that already. You can give the finger in lots of other and better ways anyway.
Glad to have you here!
Marked
status offlineGundersen
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Thanks Marked and Inspector D
Fading does seem to be the less traumatic way to go. I'm only wondering if I haven't aroused some suspicion already with my lackluster service efforts and sporadic meeting attendance. My only question would be if it's worth fading at all? It seems nowadays that the direction from the GB is to somewhat limit contact with family members still in the truth but aren't doing much for it. So whenever i'd see my family, they would always have in the back of their heads "Why aren't you going to meetings anymore?" And the relationship would be strained at best. I'm wondering if it wouldn't be more beneficial to rip the band-aid off in one go, so to speak, and get it over with. Thoughts?
Thanks again for everyone on here. Your stories are all very encouraging. Who would've thought goats could be so supportive??
status offlineIan
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Hi Gunderson,
Just a brief input from someone who did just that, ripped the bandaid off in one go. For maintaining one's sanity in the reality-based world, it is liberating. I don't know your parents of course, but mine take their orders from the GB. As a result, I can count on one hand the contact I've had from my family over the past 30 years when policy has been lenient. No family members attended my graduation from high school, college, my wedding, none have met my children. No words of encouragement or love during the inevitable difficult times we face growing up and finding our way in the world.
I'm all for breaking it off with the JW org, but also encourage you to fully consider the potential consequences of your decision. I'm not sure a fade would have worked to maintain my family relationships. The org really does hold family relationships hostage, so please choose your exit wisely. You may want some contact with your family in future.
status offline2014myyearoflight
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Hi gundersen, welcome to this great forum,
There are many here who can give you better advice than I, though I will offer my best..... I was never baptised, but left around 1991 and didn't allow myself to scrutinise the troof until this year....2014, my year of light, as I like to think of it. Hence my username.
As everyone's life, situation, family and personalities are different, the decision you make will need your careful consideration and examination to reach an appropriate outcome that best fits you. Just as deciding whether or not to remain in, or leave any relationship, and how to do so, it most likely won't be without some emotional pain.Your family most likely will shun you to some degree, as did mine, if you do decide leaving is best for you. And yes my relationship with family is strained somewhat, even after 23 years.
When I left the org, I tore the bandaid off in a sense... but in saying that, I didn't announce it either. Just never attended the meetings. And never explained why. Still, "rumour and inuendo" ensued like a steam train gathering momentum until some of the more astute put an end to it, which gave me some comfort to know some of the "friends"...... were.
It would probably serve you better not to discuss your real reasons for leaving, if you do leave, until giving yourself and family time to adjust to the new division.
What you could do though, is... show by your actions that leaving their religion or losing yours doesn't automatically mean you become a bad person.... show them love and compassion even if it's not reciprocated.... maybe they'll come 'round... you just never know until you... 'hit that switch' or 'turn that key'... do what is right for you !!
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Gundersen ...... only you can work out the best way to leave ... be it a-la-bandaid-ripped-off or fading-into-the-shadows style. Trust your instincts ... which I know can be hard given we're not encouraged to think for ourselves or to trust our own judgment when inside the borg. Just keep being yourself and being true to yourself ..... and if the people you know and love can't see that you're still the same person minus their silly religion ... then that is their problem, not yours.
We're here for you ...
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Sep 20 14 7:45 AM
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Hello there and welcome :-)
(because part-time work and pioneering is SO lucrative!)
Lol....tell me about it........that was the story of my young life *sigh*........the organisation makes sure that we are set up educationally for very little except door-knocking and menial work!!
I know how mind-blowing it is when we first dare to look at anything to do with the religion, using literature other than the jw!!! So congrats on being brave enough to actually start your own unbiased research!! Although it is hard to take in all in one go......gradually the real truth will out, and we can reclaim our cognitive abilities and think for ourselves smiley: smile
People leave the org in many different ways and for many different initial reasons.............but the most important thing is that we finally have the freedom to look at this life that many of us have wasted for so long........and live it to the best of our ability without the strictures of religious dogma!!
Good to have you here and hope you enjoy your time among other survivors...........btw...Crisis of Conscience will blow your mind even more!!
Sam x
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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Sup Gun??
Seems like we're the same in the sense that you found out information thats contrary to the teachings you were taught. I disassociated myself unofficially on facebook to alert all the friends I knew then I DA'd officially by sending in my letter 4 years later to the elders. I wrote my story today as well if wanna read. They just recently read my name off. I did it to make a statement that you can leave the organization and still be ok, however, looking back on it, I should have stayed the faded status for parents because now they have to live with the rumors that are spreading which makes them look bad to the congregation. I mean, the dust will settle in like 2 weeks though so then again Im glad I did give a Last F You to the borg.
Final analysis I'd say Disassociate once you feel u have something solid to stand on whether that be another religion or philosophy. Fade away for now but please dont kill yourself... Thats what they expect you to do. They'd say"Poor Gunderson. If only Gunderson had stayed with Jehovah and his spirit directed organization! Guess its true, when you look at outside information you become mentally diseased and kill urself" George Bernard Shaw made an excellent quote that I live by now... "The Best Revenge, IS MASSIVE SUCCESS!" You have a huge opprotunity in front of you. To prove them LIARS and your life will give others the courage to leave based on your example.
Keep studying outside information... Its beautiful, you will see. Read about the 7 Chakras in your Body (Idiots Guide books are GREAT!) Learn of the Kabballah... Buddhism whatever. AND Keep praying to Jehovah! KEEP PRAYING TO JEHOVAH! AND OH YEA... KEEP PRAYING TO JEHOVAH! (or whatever you wanna call Him or HER or IT) Let Her Guide you, S/He may guide you to be an agnostic, Law of Attraction student, Born Again Christian, Muslim,Gnostic, Buddhist, Lucifarian, or even Atheist. Whatsoever it is, it WILL react well with your spirit and when it does go with it. God will NEVER LEAVE YOU no matter What your JW/Bible brainwashed brain may be telling you.
Philipians 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, KEEP ON CONSIDERING these things.
PeAcE n LoVe
and welcome to the site. May it bring comfort to your soul... We're praying for you :-D
Last Edited By: Psa1mist9 Sep 21 14 2:19 PM. Edited 1 times.
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Final analysis I'd say Disassociate once you feel u have something solid to stand on whether that be another religion or philosophy
I would just like to add from my own perspective........when you find out something is a crock of shit..........get out!!! Run for the hills!!
It's a bit like staying in a bad marriage 'until you find someone better'.............if you can't be true to yourself then that someone/something is never gonna appear!! Plus there is always the danger that you could go 'out of the frying pan and into the fire' !!
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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Thanks all for the support and suggestions.
I think I will attempt to fade while mentally preparing myself for D/A or D/F should the situation arise. Reflecting back on the past months, I can't help but draw the matrix /blue & red pill analogy.
You really can't 'unknow' something once you've done the research. Now whenever I do go to meetings, i'm not just lapping it up. I can criticize, analyze, scrutinize everything. It's a wonderful feeling if a bit overwhelming at times.
Also a follow-up question. How did you all deal with the guilt so ingrained in your heads? How did you develop your own moral compass while not bothering your conscience?
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The whole thing about being kicked out or leaving ... whichever comes first ... is that we're talking about a small group of people who feel they have the right to have control over a larger group of people ... and they are NOT a court of law and therefore don't need to be taken seriously! You can't 'un-know' something ... that you are definitely right about but you can certainly do your best to debunk the mystery of the WBTS' hold on people. Fear ... guilt ... recrimination ... emotional blackmail ...... it's all there in truckloads!
The guilt and the fear are two of the hardest habits to break Gundersen .... but they are just that ... habits! With the guilt ... my suggestion would be to analyse what you're feeling guilty about and why. If you're feeling guilty because you're supposed to feel guilty and it's by way of the way you have been raised and the super strict controls you've been under ... then it's not your guilt and you shouldn't feel guilty. If you're feeling guilty because someone is waggling the pointy finger of guilt your way ... that's THEIR guilt not yours ... again you shouldn't feel guilty.
The moral compass thing isn't hard to negotiate either. The trick is remembering the difference between right and wrong ... rather than guilt and habit. Don't feel guilty for something you have no need to feel guilty about. You don't need religion in your life to MAKE you behave the right way. The conscience you're talking about is an inherited, indoctrinated conscience .... it's there because it's been put there. If you don't run around willingly and knowingly hurting other people or yourself ..... then you're already on the right track!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Hey welcome Gundersen! Glad to see you here and doing research on JWs. I totally understand where you are coming from. I have had a few of my siblings just fade away pretty successfully and they still years later feel some guilt only in regards to the relationship with our parents not being as close as we want it to be. Even with that slight guilt we have; we all have bonded closer than ever and always remind each other that we are living OUR own individual lives NOT changing what we want to enjoy or pursue in life just because JW told us to.
As for my moral compass I pretty much just shut it down even while I was a JW (I got D/F'd and my plan of fading out didn't work but I got too cocky/didn't care lol). I was attending meetings just to be there for my parents, started to ignore my "friends", grew my facial hair out...so field service just wasn't on my agenda at all. Feel free to ask any more questions and share your updates with us here; glad to be of some help.
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Hi Greenie, great to have you here. I faded and I was happy with that although I found myself treated just the same as a disfellowshipped person anyway!
If you have the nerve you could surreptitiously leave some searching questions in the minds of some of your friends before you depart, for example by saying “there is no evidence for what it says in the Bible.” Another would be just to drop the mention that 607 BCE cannot be the date for the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians. (It simply does not gel with all the other events and dates so well recorded by the archives of the Babylonians and others). These incisive thoughts can healthily ferment in receptive minds and cut through the Watchtower bullshit and help them see TTATT. Nevertheless whether you leave by fading or by going out in a blaze of apostasy, the best thing is that you can know that you are being true to yourself and no longer a Watchtower slave.
I note your Jane Goodall reference, I guess you take an anthropological viewpoint, this scientific sort of observation and consequential reasoning really is the intellectual approach to determine what is true.
Apart from the must- read Crisis of Conscience I can heartily recommend two other books (which I have enjoyed immensely) to round out a convincing TTATT: A Short History of Christianity by JM Robertson. This book, old but good, takes the sociological stance in evaluating the history of the Christ cults in the early centuries of our calendar. It is astounding in its exposure of the competing pagan beliefs and how they were absorbed in the Biblical orthodoxy to cater for all tastes and hence it became the ‘catholic’ Christianity of which JWs are but an offshoot. The third book to read would be The Bible Unearthed by Israel Finklestein and Neil Silberman. This scientific read is the objective look at the archaeology of Canaan and the exposure of falsehood in the Bible’s key stories such as the captivity in Egypt, the Exodus, the conquest of Canaan, David and Solomon as mighty monarchs, the united monarchy...all fiction, all Jewish propaganda!
Welcome GG!
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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Thank you Andria, Jerry and HB! As well as everyone else here. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.
Quite frankly the thought of doing what I enjoy and having my own say in how to live my life is extremely exciting although the implications are terrifying. Some days I wish I could go back and forget everything i've learned and just be a happy, wishful witness until I die. But we must face the world as it is, not as we would wish it to be. I am experiencing extreme mental frustration at not being able to verbalize my concerns with anyone close to me, which brings me to my current dilemma.
I suck at making friends. All in all, I would consider myself "friendly" but I was never the outgoing, social type. Personal growth as a congregation member the past few years has enabled me to shed this shell, although temporary. I can now force myself to have conversations with people if social situation call for it. But in reality I woud prefer to be left to my own devices if I had the choice.
I find it now extremely hard to socialize with anyone who is not a witness even though these are the people I should be reaching out to. I tried messaging my old school friends on facebook (under a different name, mind you). To be honest, something akin to shame or embarassment swells up inside me. Like I should have known better since I was the smart one in school. I find myself apologizing for not keeping in contact with them and not responding to their friend requests (they're WORLDY! ewwww!)
This shame and embarassment holds me back from reaching out to others and coupled with the still-ingrained notion that all worldy people are evil, makes for a very difficult time in making friends. For example I was thinking of getting a math/physics tutor. Immediately my witness brain kicks in with "you're too stupid for this/not worth it etc." I know I am intelligent or at least moreso than I give myself credit for. Perhaps low self-esteem is also an issue since I grew up absolutely hating over-confidence /cockyness so I tried to feel as low and insignificant as I could. I wonder if this is a common feeling among witnesses.
I apologize for the length as I had a little more on my mind than I thought. If any wish to weigh in on this feel free. Ths place is my only sounding board for my issues so any thoughts are appreiated as always.
Gundersen
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offlinesunnyflowernz
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Sep 15 14 4:48 PM
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Hello friends, I wanted to share my book with you all it contains the story of my 13 years in the organisation and what happened to me there along with lots of other things, it is the story of my life you can go to my website to read all about it if you like:
http://www.itsalongwaytohappy.com/
I feel that writing this helped me heal and knowing I am helping to warn others about this cult makes me feel so much better, :)
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Hi Sunny,
I'm glad you were able to find a happy life outside the org. Writing can be helpful in healing. It helps one organize one's thought.
I wrote and delivered a sermon on my experience with shunning. It was very helpful for me to deliver it to a live audience too.
Welcome and best wishes to you
K
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Sadly the link wouldn't open on my PC at work but I know writing is cathart....catharc.....er.....good for you.
Welcome to the forum and I hope you contribute to it.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
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Hi and welcome! When I get more time I"ll have a read.
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Hi there Samantha-Jane and welcome ................ I have bookmarked your site and will take a closer look later. We're almost neighbours! You're a Kiwi and I'm a West Aussie! Welcome.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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to all for your comments :) xx
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Catching up to modern times
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offlineSpiritWalker5
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Aug 15 14 3:26 AM
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First let me say that I studied for two years back in my earlier years. My life since has showed me many things, and so glad I never took that final step of being baptized. That being said, in those days I often brought my younger brother along to meetings. Well, we all grew up and in time found that my brother's two children ended up in foster care with a JW family. Needless-to-say we don't see them much. However, over the years, most of the JW's in our area, either know where we live, or know of our association to two of their younger potentials...have always dropped by my house offering me the magazines. I've actually told them I was Pagan and since have not had much visiting. Last week I came home and found a flyer (not very big I might add) in my mailbox. It was a website invite to start receiving the magazines electronically!!! Hey isn't that convenient? I was so surprised! I guess it's faster than walking huh?
I threw it in the garbage and went about my day. I just thought I'd share that. :)
The beauty of life flows from within!
Love and Light
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Hey there sw :-)
Yes the jw's have certainly 'embraced' good old 'satans tool' the internet lol!! We were discussing just how great is their internet presence on this thread............
http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/26994/Grab-you-a-plate-and-cut-you-a-slice
seems they have realised that they can ensnare people in far greater numbers by this method.............and the range of their on-line products advertising their website is something to behold smiley: sick
Worth a look when you have the time (and the stomach) smiley: tongue
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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They broke the law by placing that in your mailbox.
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Hi there Walker ...... that leaflet is doing the rounds at the moment. I'm in Western Australia and one was dumped in my letterbox last week! It's on our computer desk at the moment and is a great source of amusement given the WBTS has warned its followers to stay away from the evil internet. How the times have changed eh!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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I got one of the leaflets shoved under my front door mat last week. It asks "What are the answers to lifes most important questions...." or some such drivel and then proceeds to infer that THEY have those very answers and from the bible, a book that is so full of exagerations and error and horrible stories it just makes me shake my head. I guess if they nab any people with this then those people almost deserve to be nabbed. The tract was an insult to the intelligence.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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These guys need hanging!
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offlinesarahkate
These guys need hanging!
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They so need to be bought to justice as an organisation! whack http://www.itv.com/news/wales/2014-09-29/jehovahs-witness-sex-abuse-victims-call-for-organisation-to-be-held-accountable/
Sarahkate xx
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I'm glad you posted this. I saw it on facebook.
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Another "loving" family.....
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offlinecangie
Another "loving" family.....
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I'm watching the TV program "Intervention" where a drug addict is confronted by his/her family and encouraged to go into drug treatment. This story is about Richard, a young man who is addicted to crystal meth and other drugs. His mother divorced his father when he was a youngster, and remarried. His mother and stepfather were...wait...JW's!!!!!!! His stepfather beat him because Richard was gay and the mother indicated that the elders had the last word on what they should tolerate. Discipline He was also molested as a youngster by a member of his "extended family", but it was not indicated whether that person was a JW or not. The stepbrother is an arrogant a$$hole, (probably an elder, lol). "Praying to Jehovah" is mentioned several times, especially because Richard did not accept treatment during the intervention, so his mother said she had to "disassociate" him from the family.. Eventually he accepted help and has been sober since 2012. Another sad family situation......Oh no
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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I'm so sorry hearing of this situation. I don't watch a lot of those programs but it must be a struggle for all the family members.
We know this stuff goes on in with many families. It's extremely sad.
It's been a struggle for me learning how to separate the love I have for certain family members versus the insanity of their life.
LIN
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Exploitation of Tradition
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offlinebirdwoman2
Exploitation of Tradition
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This is a pet peeve of mine with the WTS.
I grew up in an environment that cut me off of traditional values and celebrations in my own family. My traditional and ethnic roots were severed and it took much work to restore the damage that the Society's teachings did to my cultural identity.
And the Society shamelessly exploits the multi-cultural theme within the cult - flouting traditional dress as a badge of distinction at their assemblies. And yet the cult denies the individual from recognizing the values and traditions - usually religious in origin - that the dress represents. It actually makes me ill (and pisses me off just a bit too) when I see delegates dressed in traditional dress when I know that they have had to turn their back on the rituals and celebrations of the culture that same clothing originated from.
Here are a few of the images I saw posted on pinterest of JWs:
84c3646e15c4b3cc04165bd53650aba395e2e1cb
2bd36a4d1b00bab50fb25a26326ba1a5a2b14497
67e362bc1f32b9f308b457fe37f9a984814ae923
1cb16610bc045b3fa0c6e35597ce364c8fbe8dce
9c92604185bcd06351f361a949b344afcfef064d
“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”
- Susan B. Anthony
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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I totally agree Dianne.
I don't come from an ethnic minority nor do Aussies actually have traditional dress of any kind ... unless you count shorts and a blue singlet whilst wearing a pair of thongs (as in footwear not the underwear) on your feet!
When I was growing up ... the only time anyone's traditional dress ever came out, was for the 'get togethers of the fancy dress type'. I guess with all the internet exposure they're flaunting .... they want to enforce that 'we accept all kinds of people' image in the minds of the detractors. It's why the mags and jdub pubs are 'politically correct' with images featuring people of all races and colours. I don't like it either. It's like having a token black person or a token Asian person in a C grade movie from the early 60's!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinebirdwoman2
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The Society's magazines may be somewhat 'politically correct' by representing people of various ethnic origins but the WTS' depictions of different ethnicities leave much to be desired. It is one thing to represent different races of people but quite another thing to misrepresent the traditions and customs of different countries by exploiting clothing traditions in order to make a pretty visual display of those differences.
What bothers me the most is the lie that that the WTS promotes that they are 'multi-cultural' by their shameless use of traditions that took centuries to develop and sustain. They profess to be all inclusive but they aren't.
By following the Society's teaching, an individual is required to severe ties with the traditions and customs of their culture and adopt the culture of the Society. The flagrant misuse of traditional dress to appear multi-cultural is an insult to all the cultures represented at their International Assemblies.
Traditional costuming and dress by JWs is deceptive - they might as well say - "sure...go ahead and wear that clothing that designates you as being from another country, but don't you dare try to celebrate any traditional festivals, engage in any ritualistic behavior, or uphold any of the political views of that country, once you decide to join our new and improved culture."
A short time ago, when I was still living in northern rural Canada, my neighbors were of Aboriginal descent and the husband was 'studying the bibble' with a couple of elderly (white) JW women and I was able to see the magazine that was left with him - it was written in Cree. But, what was ironic about it, not just that two old white women had no clue as to how to even say hello in Cree let alone read the dumb magazine with dark skinned white people in it made to look like they were 'Indian'...but what was so stupid about it is that I knew no-one in that region of the country - which had a high Aboriginal population - that even knew how to read Cree. And...what about all the other Aboriginal languages besides Cree? I went to jw.org and I saw that the Mohawk language has been published but what about Dakota? and Lakota? and Michif? ...and other Aboriginal languages that have been ignored.
Here is what I think - yup...I am an opinionated broad - I think that the WTS gets subsidies and grants to translate their literature. There are government funding programs that support the production of literature and books that print obscure languages and languages that are on the verge of misuse. For example, the Aboriginal communities in Canada work very hard to preserve their language and they do so with the help of government funding agencies. It would not be difficult for the Society to make a case to governments and funding agencies for the promotion of literacy and then to receive funding to translate their literature into different languages.
But, back to the cultural costuming - The WTS is NOT multi-cultural - the WTS is its own culture and requires its members to deny the culture that their traditional dress evolved from.
“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”
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status offlineCacky
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Good point! And something tells me that they wouldn't like it if Native Americans wore traditional dress to meetings or conventions.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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I hadn't thought of them getting government grants for translations etc Dianne! What a dreadful thought. I know they spout on about how amazing they are for sharing their literature in many languages etc .... blech!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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God's Form
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offlineFiguringitout20
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Growing up the most passionate debates in field service with householders (the rare ones who would debate vs. just say "not interested") revolved around the Trinity. Many hours were spent trying to convince people the Trinity was false and bible words were diced up from various bible translation to try to prove it.
But really why does it matter? IF there is a God, how could we possibly understand exactly what form this being is in and his/hers/its capabilities. So what if God is a 3-headed beast with the capability of splitting off part of himself to send to earth. I'm not saying this happened, but in the big scheme of things it seems silly now to have to determine for a certainty whether or not God, if he exists, is part of a Trinity. I don't know, you don't know, and I don't see the point in needing to understand/know God's form.
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That makes sense. Also, what in the world does it matter if Jesus was crucified on a cross or a stake. Who cares!!
status offlineFiguringitout20
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So, true! They need to learn about not making mountains out of molehills!
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Figgy, something I’ve come to realise is that practically the whole of the Bible is re-cycled material. Hardly any of it is original; it is entirely the product of the fallible human imagination. Much of it comes from pagan folktales which were country stories as believed by the uneducated rustics (as opposed to the understanding of town dwellers who thought themselves to be more sophisticated). Ultimately, Bible texts originate with folk tales elaborated around the movements of the sun moon stars.
Most people will imagine that the Bible stories are based on a kernel of truth and then fleshed out but surprisingly this is not the norm. What has happened is that the pagan, astrological themes are very persistent and universal and instead of actual events and people becoming legends the events and people are formulated myth but dressed up and written about as if they were historical. The Bible writers, copying earlier texts, have made myth into a plausible history. The writings have historicised the myth and not created a myth out of histories. This is a very important distinction to make in understanding what the Bible is.
The trinity existed from the remote past and Christianity adopted it because the Roman Church absorbed as many of the pagan “truths” as possible to make their state church palatable to a majority. OK JWs have dropped the trinity in an unsuccessful stab at religious purity but struggle to maintain the distinction between Jesus and YHVH; this too is because Jehovah and Jesus are both modeled on the pagan template of the Solar Gods whose sons also were also Solar Gods.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
Last Edited By: half banana Jul 27 14 9:26 AM. Edited 2 times.
status offlinehalf banana
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Additional thought ...so God’s form for me is no more or less important than the correct way to draw Homer Simpson or Mickey Mouse. God is a human construct and can be shaped in whatever way the collective imagination of a religion sees fit to portray. Fact has nothing to do with it.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status offlinenevermind
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Most of the jws doctrine against the trinity isn't actually a argument against it anyway! They argue a different subject in "modalism"... I think that's what it's called.
The jw's can't argue against the trinity well enough, so they change the goalposts and argue against something else but dress it up as the trinity.
status offlineinventor
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It's one of those stupid doctrines they argue with.
Also like it was mentioned they don't even understand what the trinity is, and argue against a theological concept that was rejected by the early church.
status offlineFiguringitout20
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It's funny some of the reasoning they give about why the flood of the bible is true is because people in every country have a version of it. Well, just because everyone has a version of a story doesn't mean it came from a true source. A rumor/ story gets told and passed on and soon someone far away thinks it's true.
Half Banana, you're right about pagan sources. Would love to slip JWs info on that!
I don't really remember the history of the Trinity belief though and am not familiar with how they aren't really arguing against it...
status offlineJourney
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I believe in God, but make no pretense about knowing what form God takes. I don't think it matters in the salvation thing anyway. If I told a JW what I believe and that I don't hold my beliefs out to anyone as truth, they'd likely get that look in their eyes and start babbling things that would no longer fit exactly into the conversation.
If you ask them too closely and corner them, they will use some kind of convoluted reasoning. I remember once my daughter had a question when she was in elementary school. She asked a friend of ours from the hall. That friend told and elder that my daughter had asked that question. The elder talked to my daughter the next meeting and told her to simply believe what the society told her to believe and all would be fine. I did not know about that until a few years later. I wish I had known. Might have gotten me out of there faster. Or maybe I was close to leaving anyway.
I don't know what the question was, my daughter didn't remember. But she did remember how she was talked to and how she was sort of dismissed with a kind of warning. You know the ol' do not lean on your own understanding. Bunch of crap, frankly.
I have never invited a JW into my home since I've lived in this house. It would scare them and they'd have to exorcise the demons later. LOL JUST KIDDING. My home is peaceful for my husband and myself. But for people with superstitions or fears, they might not be comfortable. I have a lot of art on the walls, some I did, some other people did. I have a lamp made of an old mannequin. I have a couple of crosses on the wall, one I made, the other is antique. I have Buddhist things here and there. I have dolls I've made that have glass eyes, including a life size one. I have a life size skeleton wearing a dress and carrying a purse in the living room. (I bought the skeleton to use for measurements for life sized dolls. I have yet to use her that way. She makes a great halloween thing though.)
I guess I'd get in trouble if I took the skeleton over to the kingdom hall and sat her in a seat
and took her picture. I mean, I'd be trespassing, huh?
Janet
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You wouldn't be trespassing, they are open to the public.
status offlineVancity
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what in the world does it matter if Jesus was crucified on a cross or a stake. Who cares!!
Keep in mind that JW's take great pride in being different from the rest of the world. Even with small, insignificant points like this, any chance they see that could further their cause of being "no part of this world" they jump all over it. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. The JW's believe the true religion would be different so they just fix things so that they are.
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I agree, what does it matter if God is or is not, what does it matter if God is?
status offlineauth
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But really why does it matter? IF there is a God, how could we possibly understand exactly what form this being is in and his/hers/its capabilities. So what if God is a 3-headed beast with the capability of splitting off part of himself to send to earth.
Disclaimer: I'm am not arguing for Christian doctrine.
However, JWs make this seem more ridiculous than it is.
A while after I left and started widening my viewpoint I realized that I pull the Jesus/God or incarnation/divinity trick everytime I go to sleep and dream.
I send a person to inhabit a world I created in my head and to participate in a ridiculous story that takes place there :)
That person in my dream is me but is not me. No entity existing in the dream can ever see me sleeping in bed but they can see my representative.
I am greater but we are one. Wow ambiguity! Time to go hang myself.
The whole stake versus cross thing makes me laugh now too.
So they refuse to say he died on a cross because the cross has 'pagan origin'.
Instead, they say he died on a upright pole. The Bible talks about sacred poles. Ever seen an obelisk?
Do they have any idea what upright poles represent? (Hint, it starts with p- and ends with -enis.)
Everything has pagan smiley: happyrigin even wedding rings.
If people are minding their business and a new religion is forced on them that's what we would expect.
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
Last Edited By: auth Aug 23 14 8:19 AM. Edited 7 times.
status offlinehalf banana
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I’m with you KBG; what if God is or isn’t? It doesn’t matter, he never makes an appearance or an unambiguous act. He/it is completely irrelevant. He only exists in literature and therefore in people’s minds.
Whether JC was crucified likewise can only be arguments about a STORY and not about facts. The story was that Christ figures before Jesus such as Dionysus were crucified, which meant tortured to death (and always at the at the spring equinox). So the story was that Christ figures SHOULD be crucified.
To argue about these things is like arguing about the plot of a soap opera or the narrative in a Disney film, it is not about reality.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status offlineJoe Magarac
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We know from Roman history they sure enough used crosses to execute criminals and especially rebels.
This is totally aside from "the cross" (everything mystical associated with Jesus execution) being the central doctrine of standard brand Christianity.
status offlinepunkofnice
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I'm keeping out of this but as far as the bible is concerned..............establish if there's actually any evidence for what's in it....including the characters!
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
status offlineMarked for life
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By demonizing the trinity they seperate God from Christ and take away the salvation philosophy that the Evangelicals have as being "saved by grace" and put the responsibilty back on the individual. This is a better way to control people. This way instead of saying, "I fell short but God forgave me so I'm still saved", they have a chance to loose their salvation if they fall short. They put the sin back on the idividual and with it the punishment and fear. Fear = control.
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JWs trolling bereaved families
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offlinebirdwoman2
JWs trolling bereaved families
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Aug 8 14 11:53 AM
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I am disturbed but not shocked to find that JWs are trolling the obituaries online and posting 'sympathy' condolences to grieving families directing them towards jw.org.
It is quite disgusting.
The people who have died are not JWs - the obits list them as belonging to other religions or having funeral services conducted in churches.
I did a google search for obituary and jw.org and turned up many posts from JWs.
Here are a few:
from http://www.acommunityfuneralhome.com/obituaries/Victor-Richardson/
As a Community Volunteer Please accept my Most heartfelt Sympathies and our thought is with the family during this difficult times.. May you find Comfort in these words..PSALMS 34:18" GOD IS NEAR THOSE BROKENHEARTED" AND REVELATION 21:4" OUR CREATOR PROMISE THAT THERE WILL SOON BE A TIME WHEN "DEATH WILL BE NO MORE"......I have enclosed a link to a free,bible/tract that will discuss in further details .. "CAN THE DEAD REALLY LIVE AGAIN?" and "WHERE CAN WE FIND ANSWER TO LIFE"S BIG QUESTIONS?",,, www.jw.org/finder?locale=en&docid=1102013500&prefer=lang andwww.jw.org/finder?locale=en&docid=1102014910&prefer&lang ..If you have any question please contact me,,,,Sincere
Condolence
Maria H - Yesterday at 11:10 AM
and http://www.brockiedonovan.com/obituaries/Grace-Misanchuk/
I would like to express my sincere condolences to the loss of your loved one.In the scriptures Job 14:14,15 and John 5:28, God promises that he will resurrect our loved ones in the near future .I hope that Jehovah , the God of comfort grant you peace. If you have any questions visit www.jw.org
nessa - July 05 at 11:18 AM
and http://www.oneillfuneralhomes.com/home/index.cfm/obituaries/guestbook/id/2416664
Dear family of Gerald,
My condolences on your loss.
At sad times like this, grieving ones need comfort and the Bible is the best place to find it.
Romans 15:4 says the " through our comfort from the scriptures, we might have hope" The true God, Jehovah, shows us in the Bible, that soon his son, Jesus, will perform the greatest miracle, that of the resurrection of the dead. John 5:28,29.
Wonderful is the hope that soon, on the paradise earth, there will be no more death, as you can read at Revelation 21:3,4
There is much more Bible-based comfort to be found on the website www.jw.org
sincerely dianne mullins
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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They've always done this but I think the Internet makes it even easier for them. Yes, it's rather low of them to prey on families that are grieving but it's those types that may not be thinking clearly through their grief that are easy prey.
Disgusting!
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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Aug 9 14 1:19 AM
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Oh wow. That is SO disgusting!
I didn't know this happened at all Dianne and Sharon ......... as for their assertion of being a 'community volunteer' ..... that makes me doubly cross as I AM in fact a volunteer, and people like that give people like me a bad name! How rude of them! How sad for the families whose obituaries they invade with their bible bashing.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Aug 9 14 11:53 AM
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Disgusting, but it doesn't really surprise me. This would be the LAST thing someone would want to see after the loss of a loved one. My baby JW sister is really a sweet girl, but she doesn't always get why people get upset with her witnessing. One time she was witnessing to a woman who had just lost her husband. Leah couldn't understand why the woman got upset when she told her that there was no Heaven and her husband was just gone. I tried to explain to her that she was trying to take away this poor woman's comfort and Leah still didn't understand. That's the JW brain for you.
Not all who wander are lost.- J.R.R. Tolkein
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Aug 10 14 5:55 AM
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There is someone who does that on our local newspaper's site. She never mentions Jehovah, but always leaves Revelation 21:4 as a scripture to read. I really think she's a witness, and I really wish someone would stop her.
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Aug 13 14 3:07 PM
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It gets worse:
http://www.concordmonitor.com/home/13013058-95/ray-duckler-witnessing-a-mothers-sorrow-at-a-very-private-moment
The car rolled downhill on the narrow cemetery road in Concord, an innocuous part of a peaceful landscape.
Debbie Sargent had no reason to think someone, a Jehovah’s Witness, had targeted her on a visit to see her daughter, Jen Ahern, who died four years ago Thursday.
No doubt someone else coming to grieve, Sargent assumed.
She assumed wrong. The person, a woman, had come to spread her message, so Sargent came to me, choosing to spread her own message.
Her story made me mad.
Last month, Sargent drove to Ahern’s grave. She had no time to leave her car before the woman, with an elderly man in the passenger seat, pulled up alongside.
“This lady asked if I had a relative here,” Sargent said yesterday, back at Calvary Cemetery on a sizzling morning. “I said, ‘Yes, and you?’ and she said, ‘No, but I’d like to give you this brochure.’ She passed it out through the window. She wanted to know if I’m
interested in hearing about her view on death. Where’s the common sense?”
Sargent stayed cool, even after she says the woman repeated five times that “Jehovah wouldn’t lie.”
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
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Aug 14 14 6:24 AM
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Hearse chasers.
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Ghoulish behavior.
Ghouls.
the word ghoul is also used in a derogatory sense to refer to a person who delights in the macabre, or whose profession is linked directly to death,
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Just when I think JWs couldn't possibly top their own bad behavior, a story like this comes along. Going to a cemetary to bother grieving family members is totally inappropriate and disrespectful. I used to be embarassed just going to a person's door to witness; there's no way I could have brought myself to go up to people at a cemetary. They have no shame.
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I did this one time, 45 years ago. It was my first day of being a regular pioneer. I approached one person, offered the magazines along with some lame tie-in to the resurrection and I NEVER did it again. I knew it was wrong, badgering grieving people in the graveyard--it's sick and wrong.
“The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn but to unlearn.” ~ Gloria Steinem
status offlineinspecterD
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Years ago it was a normal thing to visit the cemeteries on Memorial Day since there were so many visiting graves on that day. I believe my family and I did it a couple of times but didn't continue the practice. Most Dubbies feel that it is good news to people that they are sharing. I was raised a Dubbie so I knew no other way to look at the dead. I also didn't really know how others felt about their dead loved ones. Now I am older and wiser I can see that what we were encouraged to do was not helpful and was probably damaging.
status offlineJourney
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Aug 20 14 5:32 PM
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I never knew about this. I am flabbergasted. No, I guess I shouldn't be. I guess it made me suck in my breathe, then yep, that sounds like them. Crass. However, the JWs are looking for vulnerable people. Those are the people who get sucked in.
I hope they don't do that when I bite the big one. I want to leave in peace, and I want my family to move on in peace. The JWs are anything but peaceful. I say that because of the pressure they apply. Makes me feel queasy.
thanks for sharing this information. I will let my family know, just in case they ever need to know.
Janet
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Aug 20 14 5:40 PM
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Dang it. I told Larry about it. He was glad to know. But suddenly it just pissed me off that they are doing this. HOW CRASS to intrude into a family's time of grieving. That is just sickening. I wonder if there are ways to get the newspaper or the website to remove things like that.
And community volunteers??? OH COME ON. I have put many hours into volunteering. I was working with the frail elderly, and sometimes it broke my heart. I would now and again cry on my way home, for other people's pain. All I could do was comfort measures, put a brief smile on a tired old face, make someone laugh. Hold hands with people while we talked, and so on. As an ombudsman I was a trouble shooter and saw abuses and pain.
My kids have all helped with animals and human beings who really needed it. My daughter worked as part of production in the movie industry, and they went places to do filming where they'd encounter homeless people, sick people, fragile people sometimes. And they'd give them food and things they needed.
My husband volunteers at the food bank here in town.
I could go on, but the point is, going door to door doing what they do I hardly call community volunteering. It's giving away their time to a book seller is what it is. Makes me sick.
Okay, done with rant.
Janet
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Aug 20 14 6:29 PM
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So true Janet.
JWs are 'publishers' not community volunteers.
They 'place literature' and wish they could still charge for it without attracting tax liability.
Watchtower is structured like a MLM (multi-level marketing) company in religious guise.
Like many MLMs the employees are the primary consumers of the mother company's products (usually training courses on how to sell etc).
Therefore the activity that leads to prestige and advancement is the recruitment of more people to learn to sell 'the product' not selling the product per se.
In the case of the Watchtower the product is spiritual snake oil and they're trained to recruit others to sell it.
And that religious aspect takes it to another level.
It's a publishing cult.
Evil genius.
Sometimes it annoys me that I see this so clearly while I still have JW family.
Awesome volunteer work, by the way.
You might be making more of a difference than you know.
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
status offlineCee Cee
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Aug 20 14 7:52 PM
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Does this sound like it came from the Kingdom Ministry? Those guys at HQ are worried, after all nobody's home any more. Whach'ya gonna' do when you've got a quota of literature to, uh, 'place'?
At least they can rationalize that people visiting graves are unlikely to wad up your WT stuff and toss it like they might in the subway.
Smug self righteous sickos they don't really care about the feelings of others.
Grandma Cee Cee
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Aug 21 14 9:13 AM
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I remember hearing stories of jws going to cemeteries on Memorial Day. One older sister told me about the last time she did it. She said she approached a lady with her tract and the lady said, "Can't you people ever leave us alone!" If I remember right, she stopped going to the cemetery after that.
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Aug 21 14 3:21 PM
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Cacky, I'm glad she listened. So many Jws hear things like that, then go back over and over to wherever it is. I remember going to a door and the lady opened the door, we started talking. She said, "Jehovah's Witnesses?" I said, "Yes." She shut the door. Yet, we went back the next month and the next. At that time our congregation was very active about going out in service. The goal was to hit every house in our area, once a month. I believe we did. I bet they don't now.
I think it about took threats to get JWs to stop going to any given door in those days.
status offlineSwingLifeAway
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Aug 22 14 4:37 AM
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I have discussed this behavior with my parents and they claim JW's 'don't condone it.'
So...
Where did they get the idea from?
Apalling.
I think there was a woman from my old congregation who used to write letters to families that were in the obituary section. The Kingdom Hall got a very nasty letter once, and I believe she was advised to tone it down.
-Dave
“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy.' They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
- John Lennon
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Blatantly chauvinist pigs
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offlineinspecterD
Blatantly chauvinist pigs
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Aug 7 14 10:33 AM
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This is so outright chauvinistic I could barf. The horror of it is that we all have family/friends who are still in that will be affected by this mentality. I don't want my grand daughter growing up and being taught such B*S*.
status offlineinspecterD
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Aug 7 14 10:38 AM
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LOL Check this out.
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Aug 7 14 2:36 PM
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WHAT?! What decade does this dork think we're living in? So my purpose as a woman is to cater to my man's every need? Oh HELL no! image I'm a reasonably happily married woman, but there is NO way I'm letting myself be a doormat! It's so sad that even now, in 2014, JW girls are being taught that they're only good for serving the sky god and their men. They're being taught to sell themselves short. I have three young nieces being raised JWs and I'm angry on their behalf, that THIS is what they're being taught. I hope they reach for bigger and better things than that life.
Not all who wander are lost.- J.R.R. Tolkein
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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Aug 7 14 3:00 PM
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I almost can't believe that's for real............unbelieveable!!!!
If I'd have heard a talk like that even back in the day I think I would have complained LOUDLY! Most of the 'sisters' I hung out with would have too.
I grew up with brothers and yes, I played 'house' but my brother liked playing house, too (and no, not the Dr. kind) I also liked building skyscrapers with my brothers construction set, putting together model cars and other such kits, making roads in the dirt outside for our little cities, building tree forts, etc. etc.
I too pity the sisters who had to hear that talk and hopefully they view it as I would have.........a load of BS!
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Aug 7 14 10:37 PM
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I wrote a longer post, but somehow it didn't go through. So, this time, I'll just say -- YUCK!! Awful talk. Even when I was a witness I would have been upset with this one.
status offlinehalf banana
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Aug 8 14 12:47 AM
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Inspecter, this is straight out of the 1950’s!
I can only hope they continue to publicise this “Bible based” patronising drivel................ Anyone with a smidgen of common sense can see it is completely stupid . They will kill themselves with their ignorance.
So sad for those in JW captivity............
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Aug 8 14 7:48 AM
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It sounded like most of the audience laughed when he made the joke about girls wanting to play house more than anything else. Talk about chauvinistic and stereotyping. And what about all the single girls listening to the talk that don't have a man to please. Perhaps it was an invitation for them to commit fornication so that they can fulfill their purpose for being here. Haha!
Either he was mad at his wife and getting back at her with this talk, or she is one of those extremely submissive wives that was sitting there nodding and smiling as he said those words. Better yet, hopefully he's single so no one has to put up with this guy.
status offlineinspecterD
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There was no talk about bearing children cause I don't think that they want attention taken away from the Borg. However, I suppose they have decided that they probably should encourage people to marry since they will have a bunch of frustrated people (men in particular) which might be a problem in the long run. I remember Rutherford's talk that was denigrating women into just a "bag of bones and a hank of hair". I hope that they keep it up (even when I get upset by it) cause I think that women, even in the borg, will get the message that this is a cult. PLEASE A MAN! Please just shoot me!
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Aug 8 14 2:46 PM
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Figuring, if I had stayed in the Collective, I'd still be single. There were five girls to every one boy. (Maybe that's a SLIGHT exaggeration. But only slightly.) No matter how plain the boy or how badly he treated the girls, each one had girls desperately trying to get his attention. More than one girl went outside the Borg to find a man. One actually succeeded in dragging her man into the so-called Truth. He left her and their four kids a couple years ago, telling her he didn't want to be married anymore. Listen up, JW ladies! Marriage will not necessarily make you happy, no matter how hard the JWs push you into it!
whytebyrd, I loved playing with building blocks as a little girl. I never played with dolls. I just never liked the whole Barbie thing. When I grew up, I became a carpenter. It certainly pays better than most 'traditional' female jobs. My choice of trade didn't raise too many eyebrows in my KH. Our elders were mostly more lenient than the average. One sister was a plumber and others hung drywall at quickbuilds. What got me into trouble was the fact that I worked full time for a nonJW company. One older elder counseled me for being 'materialistic'. WHY? Because I work so I don't have to depend on my mother for the rest of my life? So I can feed myself and pay the bills? Then there was the CO who came to my apartment on one of his visits. He had the gall to sit in my living room and tell me that women weren't meant to do such heavy work! Like lugging kids, groceries, and laundry around are light jobs! Then he told me how glad I would be when I got married and could quit my job because my man would take care of me! imageThe local elder with him at least had the decency to look embarrassed. Still makes me mad thinking about it. What did he think he was going to accomplish? Did he really think putting me down and belittling me were going to make me want to go back to the Borg? If that's what he thought, he thought wrong. That visit just confirmed that I was right to get out.
Not all who wander are lost.- J.R.R. Tolkein
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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I was adamant from an early age that I would NEVER marry a jdub! I was never a fan of 'giving the man his due' .... and certainly not subservient enough to sit back and play the meek, submissive, modest wifie. Yuck. Double yuck!
What's funny though ... is I am in fact a 'kept woman' ... in that my husband is the traditional breadwinner and I'm the traditional stay-at-home mum. Except I'm not home much given I volunteer all the time!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Aug 9 14 8:54 AM
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Holy.
I just hate it when ignorant and uneducated pompous asshole men use pseudo science to try to justify their blatant discrimination against people who don't have a penis dangling between their legs (oops...maybe those jerks who give those talks don't have ones that dangle...it probably is hard to find let alone actually dangle...).
Like...really??? a larger cranium size denotes authority for men?? (on average the male cranium size is larger...I have a big head...can't get hats to fit...and I am a woman...most of the guys I have hung with have smaller head circumferences than I do). How ridiculous that a larger head size means that men are superior. And yet...the speaker goes on to use an example where the woman is 'quicker in mind' than the man and that she is supposed to dumb herself down just so the stupid man can make the rules. Huh.
And homosexuality is a likely outcome of women wanted to be treated fairly? Seriously? Well...maybe they have a point there. I would sleep with a woman long before I would ever crawl into bed with a JW man. Yup...all you JW dudes who are reading this...you don't stand a chance in hell. And you don't get to watch, either.
And women are a 'kind of man'? Huh? Well, if they are going to use 'science' to justify their chauvinistic position, maybe they should bone up on basic biology. Biologically, men are 'kind of a woman'. All fetuses are female first. All you JW men out there...when you were still invitro - y'all had a clitoris instead of a penis. You just got an extra shot of testosterone that gave you a penis and testicles instead of ovaries and a clitoris. Without that wee little bit of hormone - you would have remained a woman - just like you were to begin with.
*sg75...I noticed that you referred to the cult as the Collective.
Interesting choice of cult slang - I have never heard the JW cult referred to as that before.
“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”
- Susan B. Anthony
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 Aug 9 14 9:01 AM. Edited 2 times.
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Aug 9 14 11:07 AM
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birdwoman, Collective is a Star Trek:TNG referance. The Borg Collective. A hive mind that assimilates anyone unlucky enough to fall into their clutches, turning decent and good people into mindless drones who can't think for themselves. All they can do is follow orders given them by the Collective. Creepy as hell. One of the creepiest Star Trek villains. What was creepier was looking around a circuit assembly one time and realizing how like the Borg the people were. We all dressed basically alike. We're all sitting there, nodding to whatever drivel we're being fed. Scary.
And I agree with you wholeheartedly about not wanting a JW man. Even when I was little, I knew I did NOT want to marry any of the JW boys in the KH. I figured single women had much more freedom.
Not all who wander are lost.- J.R.R. Tolkein
status offlineeewx2
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You know it's no wonder I cried all day the day I turned 22 because I wasn't married yet!!!! That was all I could look forward to when I was in. I ended up getting married at 23, and I am still married to him, but geez oh man I am worth so much more than being his slave. I've always "Worn the pants" in our marriage even when I was in. My husband is more passive and willing to let me make the decisions because he knows I have a brain in my head and can use it. Unlike in the org, where I was just expected to cook and clean and just be a submissive little wifey.
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birdwoman2 wrote:
And homosexuality is a likely outcome of women wanted to be treated fairly? Seriously? Well...maybe they have a point there. I would sleep with a woman long before I would ever crawl into bed with a JW man. Yup...all you JW dudes who are reading this...you don't stand a chance in hell. And you don't get to watch, either.
Chuckle I had the same opinion about jdub men myself Dianne ..... it's one of the motivating factors for me walking out of the religion! I didn't fancy being tied up with all of that 'man and his due' crap.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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92016819b5085339a7bc0b16be3bbb0f44ccc54d
“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”
- Susan B. Anthony
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I was talking to my son the other day about this video talk and said that larger head sizes just proves that some men are fat heads. LOL My son then proceeds to tell me that head size doesn't matter anyhow it is the ratio of head to brain size (or something like that). My son is pretty smart and like my Dad is a feminist. Both of my sons that are out of the Borg are thinking individuals and have married women who also are thinking people. Much more rounded than those poor women still in the Borg.
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Speaking of fat heads...
Try listening to Samuel Herd on what makes 'a good wife'.
It might be a good idea to have a barf bag handy for this one.
*pssst - note what your wifely duties include at 00:43 smiley: tongue
“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”
- Susan B. Anthony
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thanks for taking the time to reply. Have you ever heard of Michael Tsarion? Interesting guy. Actually I have heard all of those opinions/arguments. Very interested in ancient mythology etc. Also aware of the critics about whether those things you mentioned ever happened. Those ideas you mention are also just opinions. Josephus was a contemporary of the day and mentioned Jesus. It is impossible to look at history and believe he did not exist. As far as the flood there are so many that have researched it and of course there are those who believe the "ice age" theory. I did take college level geology and I can tell you that the "ice age" theory is just that and does not fit all the facts. Have you read Immanuel Velikovsky? I recommend "worlds in Collision" and "Ages in Chaos". I recommend David Childress's books "Lost Cities of Lemuria and the South Pacific". For the last two thousand years scholars have debated in the Jewish world and the Christian world amongst their own ranks about many things. It cannot all be swept aside with an impatient hand. I have been following a trail and I believe I have come up with some answers. I am sorry you have so totally lost your faith in the Bible. I know from hard experience that the Bible can be a frustratingly hard to almost impossible book. Much misused and little understood. I believe there is a lot more symbolism in there than the JW's accepted. Basically it is a story that begins and quickly goes into a story about genetic engineering, If you have read the research I have it makes sense. The story is mostly symbolic. There can be no other way to make sense of it. Only 5 chapters in we are talking about genetic manipulation. Other ancient records have much more details. Abraham was originally from Ur of the Chaldees. They displaced the Canaanites in the land of Canaan. Abraham and his family worshipped the Gods of that area in Ur. How could there be any other facts. They had a teraphim in the family which Rachel, years later stole.. These Gods were among others Enki and Enlil. Interesting that the name Enki was also known as "the one who everyone is talking about". Why did the God that Moses encounter in the wilderness say I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and say that by my name "I am that I am" they did not know me? You may not be inclined to study or to continue your quest in this way but you should acknowledge that even the Universities are presenting their own "facts" and interpretations of facts. Michael Tsarion is a critic of much also but I do find his history very interesting. Look him up. I for one continue a serious study knowing that I will never get to the bottom of it all. I do however have faith in "God" creator and feel an assurance of his presence and care in my. life. Have you ever read "the Gods of Eden"? That will rock your world.
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“There goes another beautiful theory murdered by a brutal gang of facts” De La Rochefoucauld.
Woman b-t, in turn, thank you for replying... but I’d like to address your response which dismisses my explanations as “opinions”.
When I was a JW I was led to believe the opinions of the Watchtower as if they were true. Once removed from the social influence of that cult and with solid research under my belt, it became apparent to me that the Watchtower dogma is just sectarian opinion, reinforced by fear of death and the reward of paradise by those who place themselves in authority.
In view of our having once been trapped by such crazy beliefs, I sincerely hope that none of us any longer value other people’s opinions as the arbiters of truth. To find the truth of something we can only look at the evidence for its existence. The downside is that this limits the joy of wallowing in unbounded fantasy, but surely, there is a price to pay for valuable things.
Let’s just stick to one significant example; the reality or not of Jesus of Nazareth. You quote Josephus whose book as you say mentions him. Josephus lived immediately after the time the Bible character Jesus was supposed to have been alive (and only lived about ten miles from where Nazareth later existed), yet he only mentions the greatest Jewish miracle worker as “the messiah” almost in passing. Had he actually written this text in question, he would have naturally expanded on the subject to reveal the historical bombshell that Jesus would have been. Not do so was uncharacteristic for a historian who was sensitive to the intellectual needs of his Greco-Roman readership.
If such a god-man could truly raise the dead; he would without doubt have come to attention of the Roman authorities and startled the entire world. But the world did not know of him then and it was the middle of the second century before the “Jesus story” was formalised into the archetypal god-man tale we know from the Bible. By the way we cannot take the internal evidence of cult promotional-material such as the gospels as being either true or written at the time they purport to be. They were written mainly for poor and gullible Jewish hopefuls who were not concerned with such exotic concepts such as accuracy or truth.
As it happens among those who analyse the ancient hand-written texts, there are very few who do not conclude that the mention of the name Jesus by Josephus is simply a forgery, an interpolation added later to support a Christian cultic viewpoint. (The whole debate is found under the subject Testimonium Flavianum). Hand written copies are extremely susceptible to alteration, interpolation, deletion and forgery; hence all ancient literature must be approached with this caveat.
Secondly, Nazareth did not exist in Jesus’ day! It was not on Roman maps and archaeology records not even a hamlet there in the first century, just a cemetery and one farmhouse. Josephus lived nearby and never mentioned it. Jesus’ location was inserted into the god-man story a century or two later when Nazareth visibly did exist.
Jesus is a bogus character added to an existing folk tale.
“ The nativity” as we know it, was a well regarded and oft repeated folk drama already in circulation for thousands of years before Roman Christianity, the only difference was that it would have been called something like “The Birth of the Sun God” or the “Nativity of Dionysus” or “The Man who conquered death”. The basic things about the god-man character indicate he was a literary folk-figure whose constant mention had brought him ‘off the page’ so to speak and into the collective imagination. To label him Jesus and give him two spurious pedigrees springing from David was to attract the messiah-hungry Jews to the Christ cult without excluding non-Jews.
The Bible, so much praised for its truth and authority, is denied truthfulness by archaeological facts. Since there is little external evidence for the Bible accounts in secular documents, it is only kept alive by the constant repetition from the seething mass of believers; imparting adulation and holiness.
The reality is that it is a most unreliable work of fiction. The Hebrew texts are mainly copied from earlier pagan tales and used as nationalistic propaganda for Jewish tenure of Canaan and the supremacy of Judah’s YHWH worship. The Christian story is a pagan tale of the once familiar god-man sanitised of its pagan origins to support a Christ-cult, promiscuously harvested from the religious imperatives flourishing in the first, second and third century CE.
If we desire a coherent grasp of reality we honestly must ditch most of the fanciful prattling of writers such as Michael Tsarion (Wiki says he must be taken with a large pinch of salt) and paranormalist/fantasist William Bramley.
W-b-t, you quote the Bible “God peaking to Moses” ... “I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” How could this be anything other than a sop to the Israelites written by Israelites for the purpose of religious purity and nationalistic enhancement? How can anyone make a definitive answer to something based on the gross assumptions that there was a supreme supernatural being and that he spoke to a fictional character called Moses in the desert? Where is the evidence that YHWH spoke audibly? (Since when did cow-headed idols speak?) And where is there evidence for the Jewish folk hero Moses? Only in the book of very tall stories: the Bible ........Why not dismiss all opinions and look instead for verifiable facts to find reality. If there is no evidence; the likelihood is that it is not true.
If you like the drama of myth and astrology you could do worse than look at the works of DM Murdock a.k.a. Asharya S, she looks at the sources for religious myth and her researches stand up to academic scrutiny.
I am truly at ease having lost faith in God and the Bible (it was more an awakening, more of a gain than a loss) but perhaps you are are happy to enjoy yourself with the supernatural as a comfort and consolation?
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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Sep 16 14 8:22 PM
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Dear All,
I wish I could adopt a wait and see attitude but having been in the org for 42 years and 4th generation, I am very unnerved by what is going on in the Middle east with the 4 letter group starting with I. Anyone who was in the org for such a time remembers the Babylon Book and the many Watchtowers that dealt with the destruction of Christendom and how their knees would run with water and how the message that when they hear it their ears would buzz etc.. I want to make a statement now and that is that even if the "org" was used as a "prophet" etc they are responsible for driving millions of people away and being bad shepherds. I could go into detail but one way or the other many of you already know this. I really studied the Bible. I read the Bible through by myself starting when I was 12 years old. No one beat me to do it. They can't take credit for my determination. I have read the Bible through approximately 17 times. I read eveyr Wtchtower and Awake and most of the books from cover to cover till the time I was df'd. At one time my parent's had every single piece of literature ever printed by the Society including the things written by Russel's wife. If anything,g the society were those who put roadblocks in my way. Yes I do believe the "org" was a port in the storm of my life but it is not without fault in this world and those in charge especially elders and the "governing body" will pay dearly for many of their choices. I would recommend all read Luke 12:42-48. This is the account of the "faithful and discreet slave" that they don't read to you because it clearly shows that the "bad slave" is within the organization teaching other members to beat up on their fellow slaves. And when the "master" does arrive he will deal with that "slave" with the utmost severity. I have come to see that throughout the Christian religions there are those who may fit the role of the faithful slave and the "evil" slave. There are, in all the Christian organizations those who genuinely want to serve with humility and love and their ernest desire is to serve God. On the other hand there are those who are there who want to throw their weight around, who are unreasonable and domineering who work their way to the top of organizations for pride and dominance and enjoy their "place in the synagogue". They are not "spirit appointed". They are scarred and unfeeling in their hearts. Jesus said that the Kingdom of God was like a tree in which all the birds of the heavens roosted and fouled the tree, he said that it was like a field sown by him but also sewn with weeds by his enemy. He said that it was like a vineyard planted by a wealthy man who went on journey and run by those in charge badly to whom emissaries were sent and they were beaten and killed. Then God sent his son and we know the story yada yada The more things change the more they remain the same. There is a pattern here. Those in charge are responsible for the flock. The only people that the Bible says were not to be eating with or to say a greeting to were those who denied Christ. They are responsible for disfellowshipping millions and for corrupting those who are "like little children" with their indoctrinations of hard heartedness. No the scriptures show clearly that it was not those who left the org that fit the bill of the "evil" slave but those who remain and teach others their evil ways. READ IT WATCHTOWER SPIES. IT'S IN THE BIBLE. LUKE 12:42-48 All I can say now is that I have a bad feeling about this new trend in world events and just realize that your relationship with God has always been a personal one. No one can hide out in any religion. whatsoever, even Jehovah's Witnesses. The Bile says, yes Jesus says, that if ANYONE stumbles any one of these "little ones" who put faith in me it would be better for a millstone to be hung around his neck and he be cast into the wide open sea." For years I have made it a policy to not condemn people who have faith in Jesus according to their understanding. No one ever knew all. The attitude and message that many have gotten from many "J.W's has not set them apart in a good way and they have continuously justified this "separation" by distorted teachings. I certainly hope and pray for God's mercy on many people and I always did. Ultimately God knows what he is doing and the "reapers are angels". For those who have been beaten and battered and disillusioned I reach out to you.
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JWs have been saying the same thing about every world event for the last 140 years. You are finding correlations where none exist, maybe because it is the way have been trained to believe. In ten years time you will still be finding world events to "prove" the end is about to occur, forgetting these current events, just as the Watchtower has been doing for the last century, and doomsday Christian cults have been doing for the last 2000 years.
Rather than being concerned with what others believe, it is better to concentrate on live and enjoyable and full life. The middle east is the perfect example of the danger of adherence to religious ideologies.
Last Edited By: jwfacts Sep 17 14 5:28 AM. Edited 1 times.
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You're embracing the Bible as 100% total fact without really thinking about it.
If somebody was to sell you double glazing, wouldn't you ask why his product is better than anyone elses?
You are correct in noticing that the governing body are in fact acting irresponsibly, causing pain to a lot of people and "hard heartedness". Why do they do this? Its written in the Bible, isn't it? How do they come to this interpretation, why do they reject hellfire and others don't?
Sit down and look at what makes the Bible 100% fact to you, and write it down. People often just say "oh, the prophecies" without ever looking at secular history and seeing no prophecy in any religion has ever come true or withstood scrutiny. The Bible has to be squeezed and changed and reinterpreted to fit again, and make it "true". Its why every religion over time fractures into smaller and smaller groups, eventually dying off. The JW's are just another splinter group vying for our money and lives, but with a very nasty policy of disfellowshipping that causes all the problems.
"When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say"... if they dropped disfellowshipping I think many many more would leave. They're scared of what the real truth is, so they make it hard for you to leave.
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During the days of the Vikings arriving and executing monks and stealing treasures from the monestaries, I'll bet Christians back then thought it was a sign of the end coming. There are all kinds of horrible things that happened in the past that would make people think the end was coming. I read that during the black plague, people thought it was the end. You can see how and why they'd think that. But it wasn't the end, then, or now.
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Thank-you for responding. I appreciate your understanding. The fact is everything is more complicated then J.W.'s believe. So many have said I believe the Bible is true but all of these various people have very divergent interpretations of what that truth is. So how can anyone say I believe the Bible is 100% true? This of course has been the case in the history of the Watchtower society, they have changed their views on things because there was not a complete understanding. So they say the truth is getting brighter. But what direction are they heading in? Towards better understanding? Are we all going to be chopping off heads because that is a better understanding? Or have they really diverged from the road that leads to a higher level of intelligence and love? Is their road, instead of getting brighter, getting darker? What are the fruits of this organization? This is where I am coming from: I never stopped praying, I never stopped seeking the real truth. If I had not studied on my own - seriously I would have never survived. Emotionally or otherwise. Just believing or accepting someone else's interpretation is a luxury I cannot afford. I have had to press on and take the time and energy to follow the thread. I have found things that make sense. I have looked at divergent opinions and looked at commentaries of different religions. I have continued to improve on critical thinking in a productive way. I have stood back and looked at myself and the emotional connection. I have studied these things. I've pondered them The writers of the Watchtower's publications are standing on the shoulders of other researchers and cannot take credit for much of their interesting comments and research -- and that word researchers should be the key. That is what they should humbly be. Unfortunately some have, in the words of Jesus , "sat in the seat of Moses" just as the scribes and Pharisees did before in Jesus' day and "as their nature" (like the scorpion) have stung others. Jesus posed a question when he said "who really is the faithful and discreet slave". The fact is if anyone cares to read Luke 12 regarding this statement, with new eyes, he/she will be able to see that there is a problem here, there is a warning here because Jesus knew it would happen. I can no longer say I "believe" as others but I do take the Bible very seriously and I cannot say that it has not been fulfilled. However there are interpretations of how that happens as well. One scriptural prophecy that I have never seen explained or even touched is the one in Ezekiel regarding a period of desolation of Egypt for 40 years. I also have looked into ancient texts and feel there is much there to study but no book but the Bible offers an explanation or hope that it does. At times there is more information in other ancient texts but as usual it deserves a critical eye. Many things are symbolic in ancient cultures because it is dealing with a larger picture. Much knowledge was at one time lost. I have had some great shocks as I realized that there was more here to explain the Bible and it rocked my world. There is a bigger picture here. Not everyone has time for this and I can't say people's salvation depends on it because ultimately we are dependent on forces higher than ourselves. I started studying ancient archaeology when I as 14 because of my search into the Bible. to be continued
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Yes I am aware of that. Did you ever see the movie "The Rose" set in Medieval times. I recommend it. Yes but there are factors going on now. One is the possibility of the total decimation of life on the planet. Two is the "ruining of the earth" in a way never before possible. Third is the awareness necessary globally (in the past there was travel globally but not with the awareness that everyone can have today. Third there is an abundance of knowledge and access to it as never before. These would all have to be necessary to see certain prophecies to be fulfilled. Fourth connected to two is the manipulation with genetic engineering that challenges the very basis of God's creation and is a scourge to this earth as well as other manipulations that are being done with the weather on a grand scale never since possible since before the flood (for all the above). The people in the past, since the flood, had no idea what these things were. They were very limited in their scientific knowledge or the true scope of the problem. They were very centered on condemnation and various fanciful ideas that were pretty morbid and judgmental. This period of time has had to pass for mankind to even be able to understand the scope of the problem and the challenges that God has with us. Hope I can continuediscussion
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The people in the past, since the flood, had no idea what these things were. They were very limited in their scientific knowledge or the true scope of the problem. They were very centered on condemnation and various fanciful ideas that were pretty morbid and judgmental.
Woman, you are assuming that the myth of 'the flood' is historically accurate. You are also assuming that the people 'in the past' had certain attributes that are given to them through the transmission of words written by unknown men a long time ago.
Do you have any basis for these assumptions other than that the words that come from an old book that is a collection of various writings by unknown sources?
“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”
- Susan B. Anthony
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As far as the weather being affected like never before, that's not true. It's the first time that we know of where man is the cause of the weather situation, but in the past there had been a huge volcano that affected the weather worldwide, and the meteor that is thought to have wiped out the dinosaurs. There have been natural events in the past that had a dramatic effect on the weather.
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Womanbeyondtime -
Do you mind if we talk a little bit about 'bible reading'?
(I will apologize in advance - I know that I come across as rude and insensitive most of the time but that is only because I have a low tolerance for beating around the bush. So, sorry if I sound rude - I don't mean to be.)
You said:
I read the Bible through by myself starting when I was 12 years old. No one beat me to do it. They can't take credit for my determination. I have read the Bible through approximately 17 times.
I am seriously interested in your statements concerning your bible reading.
I have heard these claims before, that 'so and so' read the bible 'so and so' many times....and each time I read another claim of determined bible reading, it piques my curiosity because I am a voracious reader and I admire anyone who can read the bible cover to cover, not just once, but several times.
A few questions, if you don't mind.
How did you handle the lineages? Page after page of lineage...come on nowsmiley: wink...tell us that you read every page and every line and every name of those lineages...
How long did it take you for each reading of cover to cover bible reading? You started when you were 12 - so...30 years of bible reading? 17 times in those 30 years? plus all the other JW literature?
How many hours per day did you spend reading the bible? And the other literature?
Did you read any other literature during those years? Any novels? Any books at all other than JW books?
Thank you...I have always been curious about 'bible readers'.
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It seems to me that you want to believe that we are living in the last days.
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Woman ..... at the age of 12 I was on the path of getting AWAY from the religious indoctrination I'd been exposed to from birth.
I have never liked the bible as a book at all. To me ... even at the tender age of 12 ... I found it was full of contradictions. It was scary. It was violent. It was full of weird stories about incest, and rape, and death, and fear. The jdub publications weren't any better. With each passing year the combination of both (the bible and the jdub pubs) became more contradictory and less interesting. I was tired of living in fear ... and guilt ... and having to go along with a lifestyle that a bunch of old dudes in America deemed fit for my family and me.
As an adult ... it's certainly not a book I'd allow my 12 year old to read ..... and I actually do have an 12 year old. If my 12 year old was to read the bible ... he would be distressed. He would have nightmares. He would wonder why there were so many different stories and writing styles. To him the world events are just that ... they are world events. They are not something foretold in some ancient writings that have been interpreted and re-interpreted over the decades. The events of the Middle East are based on greed, on fear, on pseudo religious beliefs ... on a whole number of things. I don't believe for a second they are due to what's written in any book never mind the bible.
Your outlook on life is totally different to mine. I don't believe that the world events are a sign of god being displeased, or god being anything. I don't believe we're in the last days despite growing up being TOLD that we were living in the last days. I prefer to live my life to the full and make the most of what I have ... than to dwell on the scare tactics of a few religious organisations who quite openly hope for and actively pray for the mass destruction and death of millions. That doesn't make sense to me at all.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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I have never liked the bible as a book at all. To me ... even at the tender age of 12 ... I found it was full of contradictions. It was scary. It was violent. It was full of weird stories about incest, and rape, and death, and fear. The jdub publications weren't any better.
So.
I am assuming that it is safe to say, Andria, that you didn't read the bibble 17 times.
smiley: tongue
“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”
- Susan B. Anthony
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Woman... I get that you've come here to warn us of impending doom. But I also get the sense that you want to be proven wrong.
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Dear "Woman"
I say, "welcome" to this site. Lots of hugs and kisses.
What I'm reading, and please correct me when I misunderstand - no one gives a shit about how many times anyone reads the bible - nor do many of us care about the big A.
Most of us here grew up on that ...we are finding freedom from believing in such nonsense. That doesn't make us 'bad' persons - we just don't believe as the organization thinks we should.
My suggestion to you: keep coming back and find how wonderful a group we really are versus what you've been told.
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Well, it's jut the way it is. I did read it that many times through. Reading 3 chapters a day you can pretty much get through it in a year if I remember. I am 66 now and still reading. though not at the same pace. When I was 14 I started getting quite interested in archaeology and what grew into a fascination with the pre-flood world Actually there are many researchers and much science that shows that an entirely different and very advanced world existed before and that the world withstood a watery cataclysm. Thre are remains of ancient civilizations underneath the oceans and geological records that show a rapid increase in water levels worldwide. I also took geology when I was 36 in College and understand better what the opponents of the "flood" say and their support for an ice age. as far as children reading the Bible I totally agree that much of what the society presented to children during meetings geared for adults was not appropriate for their age. I believe my ex-husband who was a genius suffered some kind of a break when he was 8. He believed he would die at Armageddon at age 8. I think there was a lot of the birds will eat the bodies sort of thing. His father and family were not witnesses so what was he to conclude? I loved him very much but after 31 years I packed it in with him as he had gotten too violent and did not want to be with me. It is all a very long, complicated and yet very intriguing story. If you are not into studying ancient records or archaeology it would probably be too much for you but I did more than read the society's publications. I always felt that they were wrong if they felt that all these other people besides witnesses were going to die. At least I hope so! I think that was somewhat cleared up though when they had a Watchtower dealing with the Great Crowd that no man could number to be exactly that. As far as when I was young with no one to guide me when I read about God ordering the death of all those men, women and children I was angry with God. and I told him so. Strangley it rained non-stop for 3 days after that. When I read the names and years, yes I read them all! When I read Kings and Chronicles. I thought my God, the Israelites did it and then they did it again. I did not understand how the Bible was compiled or a lot of basic things. I took things very hard and serious. It was my nature. The "truth" was my salvation, I was in a dark hole and it was my light. -- the kingdom hall my refuge. I knew that there were decent people there. I was in a very bad home situation. I strived to be good and do all the right things but was also underneath so sincere and had to have questions answered. The underlying thing always to me was the terrible suffering of humanity and when I saw TV programs of this type of thing I would cry and cry. I had for years been living in a house of horrors. My father was violent, my mother beaten, I was basically subjected to years of torture. When I was 24 my brother was murdered. it took me 13 years to find out that my father had had his only son murdered. My father, who was never disfellowshipped, was an evil and master manipulator a con artist who took people's money, was sadistic and I can assure you never repentant at all. I had to have answers in my life. Of course I did, in later years see many bad things about the Watchtower society. Once when the circuit overseer was giving a talk about how we were going to finally be made perfect and said "eat a piece of fruit and die" - I got up suddenly and walked out like I was on fire. . I stopped going to most of the big assemblies because they were sheer torture for me and all they did was harangue about pioneering and idiotic family scenarios that did not even come close to reality. I decided after I was d'fd to stop reading all the society's literature for a year to see if I was brainwashed. The answer is yes there is a brainwashing component here. They are masters and I have been worked over by experts. It has been a journey. Over the last 15 years I have read many "alternatve" books. Continued to have many discussions with people and I think I can safely say that God is bigger than the "org". However I do take the Bible and all this seriously. That is my personality and that is who I am. . I have in the last 4 years had little time for reading anything but my homeopathic studies. I now have my degree and it has been quite intense. It also gives me a great insight into other people's personalities and the differences that we are basically born with and what can be done to really truly help people in their lives. I never threw out the baby with the bath water. I am greatly grieved that many disfellwoshipped people could not figure out what had happened or what was going on and were destroyed by the org and committed suicide. I have known several. . Even with my studies with others, and I had up to 5 studies I was carrying at one time, I presented a saner picture. I had several people tell me we don't want to go to the meetings but we want to study with you and I always continued hoping that either the org would change a little or that they would start going. I had a call last year from a man now with a family and a manager of a Walmart who said he had to call me and thank me for showing him a bigger picture in life and that he had never believed what the society had said and yet that somehow his experience with me and my kids and family had helped him escape from the org. I believe I was just more scholarly, not given to spiritual fadism, more compassionate, more supportive of all education, and showed I really understood the real message in the Bible.
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Sep 25 14 8:13 AM
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Woman, thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions about bible reading.
You have invested a tremendous amount of your time into studying the bible, but, have you ever considered taking a course or class that is taught strictly from an exegesis position? (college or university offer the type of classes I am referring to)
It appears to me that your bible research to this point has been more of an eisegesis exploration and I think you would benefit from a secular study of biblical text.
Eisegesis (/ˌaɪsəˈdʒiːsəs/; from the Greek preposition εἰς "into" and the ending from the English word exegesis, which in turn is derived from ἐξηγεῖσθαι "to lead out")[1] is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that the process introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas, or biases into and onto the text. This is commonly referred to as reading into the text.[2] The act is often used to "prove" a pre-held point of concern to the reader and to provide him or her with confirmation bias in accordance with his or her pre-held agenda. Eisegesis is best understood when contrasted with exegesis. While exegesis is the process of drawing out the meaning from a text in accordance with the context and discoverable meaning of its author, eisegesisoccurs when a reader imposes his or her interpretation into and onto the text. As a result, exegesis tends to be objective when employed effectively while eisegesis is regarded as highly subjective.
You express an interest in archaeology and geology and an exegesis study of biblical text would probably complement your present research and readings.
And by the way, just because a 'source' makes scientific claims, doesn't mean that it is accurate. For some information on how 'science' can be misinterpreted and misused, here is a thread on where the Society's 'canopy theory' came from. There is lots of 'scientific' information out there that is really bad science.
The underlying thing always to me was the terrible suffering of humanity and when I saw TV programs of this type of thing I would cry and cry. I had for years been living in a house of horrors. My father was violent, my mother beaten, I was basically subjected to years of torture.
Ah, yes. You are describing yourself as an empathetic person who can relate to others' suffering. Do you realize that what you were doing by focusing on the pain of others was actually a coping mechanism to try to deal with and process your own pain? What you describe in your home life made a perfect environment for you to identify with the suffering of others. In reality - it was your own suffering that you were trying to process.
- Dianne
“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”
- Susan B. Anthony
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Woman b-t, how you have invested your lifetime and emotions in a belief that the Bible is the source of all goodness! Your circumstances would naturally lead you to want something better than what you had experienced in your family. You have always wanted the right things but might I suggest that you have been studying propaganda and not reality.
It is not your fault that you were taught that the Bible was true, you believed it was because adults told you it was the right thing to believe... and children believe what they are told by adults, they take it on trust.
Like most others here, I was a believer in God and the Bible and got sucked into the JW racket. I am now so very happy that I listened to my own sceptical instinct and looked underneath the whole religious process.
JWs are a profitable cult-corporation but they are not unique, in fact the origins of Christianity operated on the same basis of fighting for cult-belief domination within a commercially sustainable framework. As with any business the product does not have to be useful or truthful but it must give the possessor some satisfaction, hope or prestige. I suggest that the JW belief system is totally wrong and incapable of delivering anything of its prime objectives of paradise and perfection...what it trades in is merely hope.
Underpinning this false hope is the Bible. Of course there are a million interpretations of the Bible but the greatest advice I could impart is that with a relaxed, informed and critical look at the book, we are able to realise that the Bible is just an influential work of fiction.
There are very few things in it which are true beyond doubt, and when we realise that about 82% of it is borrowed from earlier pagan sources we start to get the picture. The Bible was only made to be sacred by the Roman church in the 4th century to serve its own political ambitions.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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Sep 26 14 7:45 AM
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If you google Yale Open Courses, you'll find free Yale University lectures from various classes, including the old and new testaments. I watched them and they were really interesting.
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thanks for replying. I appreciate your point of view and I understand. I really need to write that book! I have studied other points of view. /still find there is substance to the Bible. Still respect it as a very unique book. which does contain historical record and records the "words of God". That too is a subject that has opened new doors and too frightening in some ways to talk about. . Not all propaganda. There is a lot of "propaganda" in the world in general. Like they said in the Princess Bride, life is pain and any one who tries to tell you anything different is trying to sell you something. I guess the real thing about propaganda is a hidden agenda. sucking people in for some malicious purpose or just to use people which is a pretty bad thing to do.. I think of Jesus illustration of the Kingdom of the heavens being like a tree and all the birds roosted in it and fouled the tree. I think Jesus knew what would happen. Too bad we can't talk in person it would be interesting. I don't agree totally with you but I understand what you are saying and yes for the 16,000 hours I spent at the kingdom hall I could have learned Greek and Latin and translated the manuscripts for myself. I would have definitely been game for it. I did take Latin in high school so have some grasp of ancient languages and their peculiarities. I wish there was someone that has that kind of training that would be available in this area. I have done some research at the local synagogue. I will share it with you soon when I have time.
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Woman b-t, just to give an alternative perspective from the usual religious one of abject reverence; are you aware that there is no evidence for Adam and Eve, the Biblical global flood, Abraham, Moses, the twelve sons of Jacob, that there was no Solomonic temple, no captivity in Egypt, that the Exodus did not take place, that there was no lawgiving at the foot of the mountain, no conquest of Canaan and that the Jews were themselves Canaanites?
Have you also considered that Jesus has no authentic mention outside of the Bible? Yet a man who could raise the dead would be utterly astonishing and well documented in any historical period.
Did you know that earlier God-men did exactly the same things as claimed for Jesus such as turn water into wine at a wedding feast, walk on water, raise Lazarus, were born of a virgin at mid-winter in a stall with animals, visited by three Persian astrologers, died and were crucified at the spring equinox? It had all been done before!
Jesus was just the name replacing the lead character’s title role of an existing ancient drama for the comfort and hope of Jews looking for a Davidic heir. Jesus could be no heir of David (Zedekiah’s heirs were murdered by the Babylonians) and his pedigree in Matthew and Luke is patently false but concocted to appeal to the Jewish hopefuls in fulfilling their messianic dreams. The character that Jesus’ name was added to was a pagan saviour-hero, told for thousands of years before the first century, usually in the form of theatre or mystery play. It too could not be true for someone called Jesus as it already had existed under the names of other heroes such as Horus, Dionysus, and Orpheus et al. His name was just grafted into the play for the sake of the Jesus cult around the middle to late second century.
In the spirit of seeing things unhindered by universal sacred propaganda, I ask: what revelatory events and advice from the Bible are true and indispensible which we could not deduce from common sense?
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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WBT welcome. I once believed the Bible was the word of God. After agonising research I have concluded that it is highly unlikely that god even exists and that the bible is anything more than some writings bunged together with string. I would never knock someone's faith but it all looks unrealistic to me. The old mantra that the 'end is nigh' makes good money.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
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Turn in all old literature?
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offlineCacky
Turn in all old literature?
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Oct 3 14 7:51 AM
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A guy on the Ex-Jehovah's Witness Recovery Group 3 facebook page, he says his name is Charles Joshua, says he went to a meeting (obviously still fading), and said a letter was read at the meeting telling the congregation that they should turn in any old literature they have to the elders if it is in good condition, and to throw it away if it is not in good condition. So now they don't want people keeping any old literature, if this is true. Interesting.
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Yes I went to the meeting where that letter was read as well. If I remember right the main reason for the letter was that so the Society could cut mag orders down to local halls. There might have been an order to only keep old mags for family worship and either throw the bad out and return the good but my memory isn't very good. You know how it is with letters. If there's any part of the meeting where your brain tunes out EVEN MORE it's during those suckers.
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I remember the days when there was a giant bookshelf in most JW families' homes filled with bound volumes and old books and mags. How the times have changed. Have no fear, JW.org is here! Lol *eyeroll*
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Cathy, one of my favorite things to do is look for some of the older material published by the Borg. Makes me think it's time to ask our book seller if he can find some of that.
Sometimes I just curse myself for ever having started research.
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