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Televangelizing now, eh?
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status offlineMagician03
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Oct 11 14 12:27 PM
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Linda.....I may go to the "Elders" handbook and see if I can find an appropriate few pages to hand them for conducting themselves from door to door....in the past I have scolded them and drop a line about not checking the "Field Ministry Reports"...I don't even know if there is such a report any longer in use...but it get their eyes to widen a bit.
An interesting contrast though is the recent Mormons coming by. I have not seen any of the males in the white shirts and riding a bicycle in quite a while. The campaign now is three young females who go door to door as a group, and they are quite entertaining....no pressure or nonsense, I asked them where their ten speed bikes were, they giggled and responded, guy's peddle bikes.....girls drive cars!
They are to me a poison of a different flavor, but at least they are not so up tight.
Cheers,
Elton
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Oct 11 14 7:49 PM
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Varg84 wrote:
Those were my thoughts, Rhonda. I really think they're gonna do more harm to themselves with this than they think. People are going to see the self righteousness seep out of them. Not everyone, not even close, but I really think this will open some eyes.
Thanks for the welcome backs, by the way. Glad I'm remembered smiley: smile
As an Aussie ... whenever I see TV evangelism in its full and gory glory ........ I immediately have that 'only in America' thing flash through my head. It goes back to when I was little and we went to the big assembly in Melbourne (I was 7 from memory). They had the obligatory Aussie speakers but the main speaker was of course from the home of all jdubs ... America. I remember tuning out of the rest of the stuff as we were sitting on concrete bleachers in the huge arena ... thankfully on blankets. When he (can't for the life of me remember his bloody name right now) started speaking ....... my attention was drawn to the accent. I remember so many Aussies believed in what he was saying BECAUSE he was from America. He was closer to god. His accent demanded attention. Yet I've since heard audio of that particular talk and the man can barely string two sentences together with correct grammar in place. It was the same old fear mongering liberally sprinkled with lots of Armageddon is soooooooooooooooooooooooo close ......... with an American twang. I'm far more skeptical now I'm older ....... but I don't think the 'worldly' people who view the new you beaut jw.org will be overcome with religious passion!!!
What have you been up to of late Jesse? I've missed our chats!!!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineVarg84
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Oct 12 14 11:01 AM
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Same old, same old for me really. Just working and playing. Haven't popped by here for a good minute, so thought I'd post something. I did meet an exjw in my area a year and a half or so ago and we've become quite good friends in that time, so that's super cool. That's who I discovered the link from, in fact. How've you been?
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Oct 13 14 12:40 PM
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Elton, thank you sweetie. I've been trying to read through that and it's no different from what I've been dealing with hubby and his Mormon Church because that's all he's knows from his youth-- although he does research too and he tries understanding why I don't want anything to do with religion.
At the moment I have JW and Mormon up my back side and while I'll trying respecting their religious belief - I'm not one of them and they need respecting me for having a difference of opinion and not put me in the middle of their religious discussions because I'm not interested how each one wants the other to be more like they are.
I'm so sick of religion...smiley: eyes although many of them have "good" points for sharing. I'm not a Bible believer either....I give credit where credit is due for those that follow those so-called Christ Principles but it's not the end of the world where everything is so negative. I've had enough of that in my life time and I wish they would both just stop trying to figure out how Satan is doing His dirty deed because it's the end of the world!
Meantime everyone gets a nap because I'm going to make sure everyone is fed...and I'm going to bed and rest my body and brain. Between the JW and Mormon, I'm sure to hear some interesting stories.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Oct 13 14 7:46 PM
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I know this is very off topic but I'm having difficulty surfing through some of the other forums. Each time I want making a post I get kicked off and it's getting frustrated. Hubby had to clean up our computer today and every time he does that, everything changes. That's why I'm just jumping back here. Thanks for any help because I'm tired of trying to always figure out how these servers work.
Back to topic...
status offlineAndriaSyxx
... peachy keen Jesse ... #26 [-]
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Oct 13 14 9:54 PM
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Varg84 wrote:
Same old, same old for me really. Just working and playing. Haven't popped by here for a good minute, so thought I'd post something. I did meet an exjw in my area a year and a half or so ago and we've become quite good friends in that time, so that's super cool. That's who I discovered the link from, in fact. How've you been?
I've been working (as in volunteering for the victim support at the court) and playing (usually with Gav Chuckle but you already knew that right!) ... no rest for the wicked eh Jesse! The past two weeks have been odd as my mum's kidneys packed up and she died six days later, but that's life, we knew it would happen and all will be well. Highlight of that was not allowing any jdubs apart from my bro and dad into the hospital room or funeral! A coup on my part I must say!!!!
All that aside ..... the boys are doing well and it's officially the last term of the school year as of yesterday. Conor is off to senior high school next year ...... and Carson will be starting high school. It's scary to think that both my boys will be in the high school education sector within a few months. They have grown up too much. Conor was 16 on Sunday ..... and Carson will be 13 in January. I preferred them when they were little and unable to move beyond the rug on the floor!!!!! Gav is super busy at work and trying to catch up on two lost weeks ... as am I with the washing etc. Blech ... bloody house cleaning/washing fairy did a runner on us!!!! Cow! I dunno
Was great to see you in here again ........
Lin .... I cannot say why your PC is doing what it's doing. My only advice would be that if that happens again ... log out of the forum, leave it for five minutes or so ... log back in and try again. I don't believe anyone else has had any issues with Yuku of late. Good luck!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Oct 14 14 6:22 AM
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Rhonda...if I read this correctly, I'm so sorry for your loss.
I've seen so many mothers pass and we all do survive but it's not easy.
Yes, you have a beautiful family of love that are there for you during difficult times...Love, John and Lin
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Oct 15 14 6:05 PM
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Yes you read it correctly Lin ..... my mum died last Monday (Oct 6). She was ill though ... so it has been a blessing really. My dad is doing well and keeping himself busy but it's early days yet ... hopefully the scaly religious people will leave him and the rest of my family in peace. Thanks for your kind thoughts sweetie xxx
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Televangelizing now, eh?
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offlineVarg84
Televangelizing now, eh?
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Oct 5 14 2:21 PM
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Funny how they used to condemn and deride this sort of thing, isn't it?
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Varg- Thank you for posting this. I know it's been posted before somewhere with other articles. This time it's saved.
I'm not going to go into how I think about this JW religion at the moment...because most anyone having read my former postings know I hate that religion.
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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Oct 6 14 8:04 AM
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Hey Varg, long time no see!!
Yes, the all new and...well, more and more like the religions they used to criticize...JW.Org. I think it has always been a certain type of individual that can sit in front of a TV and watch 'church' all day and so it seems JW's have become that type and the GB are catering to them. . The word lazy comes to mind along with weak, fearful and dull minded but maybe that's too cruel of an assessment....nah!
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Oct 6 14 9:41 AM
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Yup. All aboard the new tvjworg train.
Here is a youtube clip someone made as a response to the Society's new inhome brainwashing technique:
*as an aside...meektube no longer exists. Not even mentioned on the meekspace website. Gone. Disappeared.
** me is wondering what is really going on inside the Society. This new TV thing and all the hoopla has to be camouflage for something...that is just the nature of the beast.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
- Frederic Bastiat
status offlineCacky
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Oct 6 14 3:28 PM
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I haven't watch it, but watched John Cedar's video he posted about it. He said they went on and on about how Jehovah blessed the project. He mentioned how 6 million children die each year before the age of 5 in this world, yet they think their little production is worthy of god's attention, not bigger things like the dying children and other terrible things that take place and happen to people.
status offlinesolitaire
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Oct 7 14 1:29 AM
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Hey Jesse good to see ya!!!
Just wanted to say hi.......now I'll have a gander at your link ......although I haven't had breakfast yet!!
Sam x
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlinepunkofnice
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Oct 7 14 4:43 AM
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Yes. The GB finally caught up with TV evangelism...something they derided in the past. It doesn't matter. No one other than drone JWs and curious apostates(TM) will glance at it.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Oct 7 14 7:56 AM
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I think you are right, Punk.
It doesn't matter.
I find it mildly interesting that the launch of the TV.JW.org is rather understated on this board. The Society's new TV channel on the internet is the topic of many threads on other forums. It certainly has caught the attention of the apostate world. I had to chuckle when one poster on reddit made a reference to Eve and the apple and how buying Apple products could be considered a sin. Based upon a literal reading of the bibble, I suppose the JWs might be treading a pretty fine line there. smiley: laugh
I wonder what this most recent elaborate and gutsy (because it flies in the face of their strong position against tel-evangelizing) move is covering up. Or, maybe it just simply a diversion from their erroneous interpretation of 1914 significance. Maybe it is only a way that they have devised to keep internal inquiries and unrest at bay. It is like pulling a rabbit out of a hat - a sleight of hand that operates while the magician's audience is looking elsewhere. A device used by illusionists everywhere - hey! look at this! - waving their hands in the air with showy gestures and colorful objects - at the same time they are manipulating props while the audience attention is elsewhere.
It really is one of the most major overhauls that the Society has done for decades - I think it rivals right up there with the Rutherford era dog and pony shows.
When Ol Joe was sitting around drinking rum out in California in Beth Sarim with Bonnie and company - which included all those Coca-cola people - and rubbing shoulders with the World Bank people...he had his 'army' all excited about the big name change to Jehovah's witnesses and buying phonographs with his talks burned into the records.
This new dog and pony show devised by the Society has the JW.org 'army' setting out with tablets instead of phonographs.
In Rutherford's day, all those poor and struggling rank and file were saving up to buy phonographs and records. Now they are buying tablets and iphones. Go figure.
Soon, the Jehovah's Witnesses will fade into history the same as the Bible Students supposedly did. After the next few generations of the Society's new religious cult, JW.org, the adherents will view anyone who still calls the religion 'Jehovah's Witnesses' as apostates. The 'new' religion will only be known as JW.org. The children who are 'born-in' and have only be exposed to Society propaganda, will be shocked and amazed when they break free to join the apostate world. They will find out that JW.org is actually that weird old religion that was once called Jehovah's Witnesses. They will be shocked to find out that their 'truth' is founded upon the shoulders of the Watchtower Society.
What do you think their new name will end up being?
Jehovah's World?
Or maybe just shortened down - Jah's World.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
- Frederic Bastiat
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 Oct 7 14 8:11 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Yeap, apostate that I am...and curious- ya'll actually made me laugh about the insanity of that religion although I know it's not funny how they destroy lives.
I''m going to be interested to watch such on television, if they get that far...
I'm extremely grateful reading that others have keep up the work for helping to expose that filthy religion.
Birdwoman2- it's been some time since I've even thought about Beth Sarim and that scandal. It's great we do have those individuals keeping abreast and share information. Take Care, Lin
status offlinepunkofnice
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birdy - It seems the TV.JW thing has excited the rank and file but no one beyond that I know of knows or cares. It'll keep the R&F busy not noticing all the failed prophecies ie armageddon(tm) is nowhere near.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
status offlineKefka6
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Oct 8 14 9:43 PM
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I personally find this jw tv thing a little sad, i mean poor jdubs now th technically have another meeting in their own house. They just cant escape. i wonder how many will actually watch any of the "shows". They'll probably be incredibly boring.
I see that a lot of you here have a morbid curiosity about this and i think im the odd one out lol. id rather watch some GOT, penny dreadful or arrow instead of this
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Yes, the JWs are all so excited about it. I'll bet it was announced like a "new release". I'm seeing lots of comments from JWs about it being amazing, awesome and exciting.
Around 1990, when I was still in, someone asked me why JWs bothered going door to door and that if they wanted to reach more people faster why not tv evangelize? I remember having a lengthy debate on it. I took the JW stance that we didn't want to be put in the same bucket/comparabe to other tv evangelists who spread false messages and are just trying to earn money. Funny how that WAS the JW stance. How quickly they forget and go with anything new the governing body says.
status offlineFiguringitout20
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@kefka I'm a little interested in watching, though I probably won't. I haven't heard a talk since I learned TTATT. So it could be mildly interesting to catch them in discrepancies and illogical reasoning. But yes, there are lots more interesting things to watch for sure! :)
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Good Morning.
I see the same thing happening with my sister [aged 70]. She fears the big A and has actually wanted me to go talk with the local elders so I can be reinstated.
She will probably be one that will find their channel and get her daily dose of Jehovah.smiley: eyes although she will discuss how she disagrees with many of their doctrines while she continues reading their bible because of the name.
It's been difficult at times ....she is so afraid of what they will do with her because she associates with me that it has been depressing for me seeing how much control she allows that religion.
Anyhow, guess I should take this to the other forum.
I'm going to be interested in watching that shit on television one time just for research purposes. Ya'll have a good day. Love, Lin
I'm learning to just not discuss to much of my research because she wants to argue and take everything so serious as to spiritual matters. I
Last Edited By: Linda Oct 9 14 4:21 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineMagician03
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I wonder how many "Mag's" had to be sold door to door to pay for that studio set!
This is a something that I never thought would happen. I recall seeing a single commercial promoting JW's, kind of like what the Mormons do from time to time.
This is now leading the flock to a potential slaughter....the Internet!
I would guess that in the next few years there is an up tick in younger visitors to this site and others like it....
Keep up the good work people!
Elton
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Oct 10 14 9:16 AM
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Magician, I don't think selling magazines had anything to do with it.
Your age is showing smiley: tongue- the JWs don't sell magazines anymore - except to themselves.
It's more like - how many estates paid for it. And, how many dead people's rings did they take so the GB can flash them onscreen.
I think though, over the next few years, we will see exjw.org sites popping up. Some of the new JW converts and babies being born in won't even realize that jw.org is actually the Watchtower Society. Just watch...the name Jehovah's Witnesses is going to become history soon. The Society will be trying to distance themselves from their past - pretty soon the JW religion as we know it will be as different as it was when they decided that the pyramids were no longer Jehovah's measuring stick. And that Jehovah lives in Pleiades.
In with the new and out with the old...
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
- Frederic Bastiat
status offlineMagician03
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Oct 10 14 9:30 AM
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Birdie....I think that you are spot on.
I had not even considered the transition that you describe, but it probably is in the works.
No more Watchtower and Awake!! Even the real Jehovah is probably pissed about that one....
The "Dubs" in our area don't even dare come to my home.....
Cheers,
Elton
status offlineCacky
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Linda, I believe the correct stance as far as associating goes is that they won't take any action if she continues to associate with a family member. It's only if she associate's with an unrelated jw that has been df'd that they would take action.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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I for one welcome the change, because if there is one thing I can be certain of, it is that the more Witnesses hear these men speak for themselves, the more obvious it will become that they are nothing more than proud, deluded men – far from worthy of the adoration they receive.
I love a good Cedar's blog comment!
Well there you go ......... let's knock all other religions down for being so crass, so un-Christian-like, so commercially oriented to have to resort to TV evangelism ...... but let's do it better when it's our turn because we ARE better. We're tidier. Our hair is shorter. Our religion is better. Our presenters have 'the truth'. Blech. As Dianne pointed out 'out with the old and in with the new' ....................... the oldies must be wondering what's going on!
Nice to see you Jesse and Elton ............................
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineVarg84
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Those were my thoughts, Rhonda. I really think they're gonna do more harm to themselves with this than they think. People are going to see the self righteousness seep out of them. Not everyone, not even close, but I really think this will open some eyes.
Thanks for the welcome backs, by the way. Glad I'm remembered smiley: smile
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Elton, Those people no longer come to my house either. And whenever they are seen on the street I get heads up.
I've not been so nice in the past with them and one elder and I made amends when I needed getting a current translation of their bible for research...
The last time they came around I told the pioneer of 40 years[she made sure I knew that] when I told her the neighbors were gone , she was a bitch. At any rate I'm sure my address in one their list of no calls...which suits me just fine.
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Revised Bible Teach Book
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status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Oct 16 14 2:57 PM
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Quite right Matt ...... then they will try to get everyone to hand the old stuff back. Can't have evidence of past failures floating about!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Revised Bible Teach Book
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offlinepunkofnice
Revised Bible Teach Book
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This is a rumour so I won't say it's gospel (pun intended). Well, what do you think? If a 'revised' Bible teach book is released isn't that rather ironic? what does the Bible really teach? Not what the WBT$ said in the 1st edition! If there is truth in this then it just proves to me that the WBT$ isn't 'progressive(TM)' (their excuse for flip flopping), but floundering and chasing the money.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
status offlinesolitaire
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Wow...thanks for letting me know Punky!! I wouldn't want to be learning the wrong truth smiley: smokin
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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It should be called, "Just Kidding, THIS is What The Bible Really Teaches."
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
status offlineCacky
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Maybe the new version has the overlapping generations in it if the first version didn't.
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There are way too many overlaps to stop the average jdub or person unfortunate enough to study with jdubs ... not to drown in them! Something to watch out for ..... I'm sure it will be gripping reading.
*returns to her Charles Dickens' "Little Dorrit"*
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinepunkofnice
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The irony amazes me. Perhaps the book should be called: What you have to believe currently (or be disfellowshipped).
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
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I will have to be on the look out for this. I've always noticed that even in the past with the Bible Teach book there is some alterations of pictures. Example is that the first print edition (from memory?) has a picture of a lit candle that was blown out and it showed the smoke above the wick. The lesson was that once a person dies their soul (represented by the fire on the candle) is just no longer there. However, when either a JW noticed the picture closely (or people studying this with a JW) the comments were such as "Well the smoke in the picture represents that person's soul ascending to heaven, right???" So, whenever they reprinted the Bible Teach book second print edition, they clearly altered the picture that just shows a candle and a burnt wick with NO SMOKE to make it 100% clearer...
Also, some real pictures of bros/sist removed due to them being DF'd is another rumor that is out there.
status offlinePsa1mist9
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They'd probably alter the first chapter talking about "Why do people stop asking questions?" Answer: Because if you become a witness and keep asking questions you'll leave!
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You won't just leave if you keep asking questions, you'll be told to leave. When my daughter had a question they couldn't answer, all she was told was to believe what she was told, believe it on faith. They gave her no logic, no reasons, just to believe what she heard through the organization. Thank goodness that happened, because it was the straw for her. She did not get baptized. People who keep asking and explaining logically have a bigger problem.
Janet
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Hey, Punkie. Seems I'm following you around you sexy thingsmiley: smile
Dont' ya just love when it's a "revised" addition to their former teachings? And heaven knows it's always the "Truth."
I remember years ago when my jw mother came for a visit and we discussed the older version of their bible, the one I grew up with. They showed dinosaurs and yet she would tell me there was never anything like that.
Time for time out...chat later
status offlineFiguringitout20
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I never heard of the first Bible Teach book and now there's a revision. Or maybe I just forgot about the first. I'm sure it was not riveting reading. I left in the late 90s.
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Journey wrote:
You won't just leave if you keep asking questions, you'll be told to leave. When my daughter had a question they couldn't answer, all she was told was to believe what she was told, believe it on faith. They gave her no logic, no reasons, just to believe what she heard through the organization. Thank goodness that happened, because it was the straw for her. She did not get baptized. People who keep asking and explaining logically have a bigger problem.
Janet
Yay for your daughter.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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What I see happening in life - when you want to make a change,you take action with making telephone calls, writing letters and simply get involved with your community.
I'm not one for just having "faith" as told by religion. I have too many issues with that concept.
status offlinepunkofnice
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JJAX - This is true. The reverse cover of the songbook has a new bloke replacing a black chappie.
Journey - I'm glad your daughter has her eyes open. Phew.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
status offlineJoe Magarac
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nobodyknows wrote:
"Just Kidding, THIS is What The Bible Really Teaches."
In a nutshell, that is the entire history of JWs.
This is just one instance.
status offlinepunkofnice
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I am confident that JWs have little idea what they really are buying into. The vast majority have no idea what they believe above 'paradise earth(tm)' and shun 'apostates(tm)'.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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The elder I spoke to last night when asking him to keep his friends away from my dad's house and to respect my dad's wishes ......... actually said to me ... "I cannot see why you don't like Jehovah's Witnesses ...." and he actually meant it! HE cannot see anything that is not WBTS mandated ....... how sad is that.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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I don't think I ever read the Bible teach book. I'm sure many real scholars from seminaries would have a lot to say on the book though!
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I've not read it either Nevermind ...... but then I find Charles Dickens and other classic writes far more interesting to read!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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nevermind wrote:
I don't think I ever read the Bible teach book. I'm sure many real scholars from seminaries would have a lot to say on the book though!
It makes boring seem really rather interesting.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
status offlinematitalica
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Seeing as how they had to re-revise their nwt, now they have to re-revise all their material to match the new version of their bible.
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My mom and I are having a discussion about internet usage. She said that the internet was never viewed as bad, we just needed to be balanced with it. Anybody know where I can find some older articles published by JWs that prove this wrong? I've looked at the JW.org website, but of course they'll only show things from the year 2000 and up. Almost like the old ones don't matter anymore. (Duh.) A little help?
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
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I don't think they have ever said that JWs should not use the internet, just that there are lots of 'dangers' to be aware of. Here are the oldest references I could find:
*** g95 11/8 p. 29 Watching the World ***
Computer Porn Available to Children
As Australian schools connect up to the Internet global information network, they are also linking up to what amounts to a moral minefield. According to The Sydney Morning Herald newspaper, they can access “X-rated photos of nude children, orgies, video clips from on-line brothels, a ‘bill of rights’ for people wishing to have sex with animals—and information on how to join a masturbation ‘chat-line.’” The article adds: “Passwords or proof of age were not required—just an ordinary dial-up connection.” Experts say it is impossible to censor the network “because its structure was designed . . . by the US Defence Department to survive a nuclear war.” The data is not tidily located in one spot but is mirrored on thousands of data bases around the world. Recently a Swedish researcher counted 5,651 messages or postings about child pornography in just four news groups in one week.
*** g98 1/8 p. 12 How You Can Cope With the Information Age ***
[Box on page 12]
Beware of the Internet
Immoral individuals use the Internet to pursue their sex perversions and to try to contact willing partners or innocent victims. Others use the Internet to promote their own personal agendas. Apostates also create Web sites to catch the naive.
Extreme caution is necessary when the Internet is used, and certainly parents should closely supervise any of their children who may be using it. It is true that there are many useful sources to be found, such as research libraries, bookstores, and news channels. For example, the Watchtower Society recently announced its own Web site (http://www.watchtower.org), which serves to give factual information about Jehovah’s Witnesses. Still, one has to recognize that there are some extremely harmful influences out there, including pornography and apostasy.
A Christian should be conscious of Paul’s counsel: “This, therefore, I say and bear witness to in the Lord, that you no longer go on walking just as the nations also walk in the unprofitableness of their minds . . . Having come to be past all moral sense, they gave themselves over to loose conduct to work uncleanness of every sort with greediness. But you did not learn the Christ to be so.” (Ephesians 4:17-20) Also, “Let fornication and uncleanness of every sort or greediness not even be mentioned among you, just as it befits holy people; neither shameful conduct nor foolish talking nor obscene jesting, things which are not becoming, but rather the giving of thanks.” (Ephesians 5:3, 4) We have to realize that many Web sites have been created by people with immoral or dishonest intent. And many sites that may not be immoral or dishonest, such as chat groups, are a plain waste of time. From all such, stay away!
Russ.
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Thanks!
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Excellent info there Russ ................
We have to realize that many Web sites have been created by people with immoral or dishonest intent. And many sites that may not be immoral or dishonest, such as chat groups, are a plain waste of time. From all such, stay away!
It does make you wonder why the WBTS now operates a whole collection of websites ... bookface pages etc. Oh wait ... they are not immoral or dishonest! D'oh ... I should have seen that!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Death ....
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offlineAndriaSyxx
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Oct 15 14 6:29 PM
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..... it's such a scary concept for so many of us. Having watched my mum slowly die over six days has certainly made me hope for a quick and hopefully painless ending ... a bus springs to mind ... but then of course if it was a bus, I would feel for the driver and other passengers. D'oh!
That aside ..... the whole death vs jdub thing has jumped into my psyche and out onto my keyboard for obvious reasons. My dad is sad that his wife has died but he's also optimistic. He says he believes wholeheartedly in his religion ... but I do wonder if the average jdub (my dad included) actually DOES believe in the whole resurrection thing.
I personally think it's a scam and a one way ticket to get grieving family members to tow the religious party line ... or to suck new people in because they're given hope that they can see their loved one again 'in the new system of things'. I do wonder if these people actually realise that even the phrase 'the new system of things' is very 'the' oriented in that oh so jdub 'the' kind of way.
Some are too frightened to grieve openly for lost loved ones. You can see at jdub funerals they are hurting. Some may dab away at a tear or two. They don't want to be judged by the others though ... and showing grief could be taken as a sign of spiritual weakness. There is no need to be upset as she will return ... isn't that what you hear them saying?
The majority of those attending a jdub 'memorial' service are usually quite quiet. The five minute set time for the personal stuff is over before it starts ...... so perhaps the still living jdubs cannot cry or get upset because they've already switched off and are in 'let's look like we're listening' mode ... to avoid being caught out. They all buck up at 'the get together' .... where coffee, tea and cakes seem to switch their smiles and laughter back on. I've been to so many of those too and barely anyone says anything about the deceased person. If anyone does ... it's usually that rubbish about them 'being a good servant of Jehovah' ... where they all nod in agreement and then change the subject. Bizarre really.
Death is scary but it's inevitable. One of the people my dad spoke to on the phone a couple of days ago ... seemed genuinely gobsmacked that my mum had died and yet my mum was a few weeks shy of her 74th birthday and ill with blood cancer. Perhaps that person was genuinely gobsmacked that she had died and the big A has yet to arrive! 100 years of being told the world is ending soon ... must surely be making some of the diehards think twice!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineGoingForth
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Sorry to hear about your Mom passing. My condolences and wish you strength and courage to carry on. Your Dad will need you now for support. Wish you the best.
“The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen nor even touched—
They must be felt with the heart.”
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Hey Rhonda, I actually know the feeling of 'gobsmacked' not because of the resurection thing but just that in my own dad's case he should have had so many more years. They were years I had hoped he might learn TTAT and enjoy time spent with his kids and grandkids and even great grandies. Your mom too. She really wasn't old enough by todays standards to die. People are living to riper old ages these days....but your mom and my dad died.
I still sometimes get the fleeting feeling of wanting to call dad, even though he was shunning me at the end. i remember when he wasn't. I miss him. You will undoubtedly be missing your mom in much the same way in days to come. It is the passing of a generation for us.
You still have your dad so hold onto thst dear man who fathered the woman we all know and love, you.
I have my mom but we are separated by distance and it is hard.
The whole concept of death...JW's think they have the be all end all answer to it. They don't. And whatever it is whether something going on or nothing going on, a religious corporation isn't the one and only path. The whole thing is such a personal and singular event in the end how dare some religious corporation hijack the moment.
How dare them.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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I'd agree with what Why said...
It doesn't matter the religion, it's your mother. And Rhonda, from everything I've read from you in the past - I know you don't like that religion any more than the rest of us but perhaps it's time for you to just give it up and cry for the loss of your mother despite all the religious bullshit connected.
We all know how that religion plays their game...they should not allow you to remember the good because there were bad things? If there was no good to remember, then that is an issue only you can deal with but remember we send our love just as you always send love our way.
When my mother died it was the same religious bullshit. Listening to fence rider you would have thought she was a saint. We all know differently but no one talks about it with me except fence rider...I find that interesting.
Last Edited By: Linda Oct 17 14 12:33 PM. Edited 1 times.
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All that "the"labeling. Ugh, so true. Shortly after I left the org one of my dad's best friends died. I went to the memorial service, and it was the typical service you described...5 minutes, if that, about him and the rest like a Sunday lecture. Afterwards, I went to give my condolences to his wife and was overcome with emotion and cried a little. I was the only person in the entire hall that shed a tear. All the JWs were so unnatural. Not everyone shows their emotions outwardly, but I have a hard time believing that all approx 150 people there were all the type that would naturally not show ANY emotion. They were stifled by the religion. Sorry again about your Mum.
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Thanks for the support about my mum ..... and yes, I shall take care of my dear old daddy. My mum should have lived much longer however cancer and nature kicked in. My dad though ... has the constitution of an ox so he may well outlive us all!
Figgy ..... I have been to 'memorial' services where there's not a tear to be seen and it really IS unnatural. I believe it's because they're all too scared to show emotion for fear of being labelled spiritually weak. It's a very real fear for the average jdub publisher and as you so finely put ...... 'they were stifled by the religion'! How true.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Hi dear, my condolences again for your loss. Death is such an interesting thing. We'll never know exactly what happens when we go. To think that the jdubs have the answer is mind boggling. That's one of the ways they get people to come to their meetings, the promise of bible based answers. Puh-please!! They don't know any more than the rest of us. We were just talking about this last night, my beau and another couple. We were saying that nobody really knows what happens after we die. There are so many predictions, but no facts. And personally I'm totally fine with not knowing. I just want to live my life to the fullest and make those around me as happy as possible while I'm still on this planet. I'm just not that concerned with what happens afterward, and I never have been. I think that's one reason the religion seemed so wrong to me even as a child.
As far as the funeral services go, I've seen exactly what you referred to. One of the saddest things I've ever seen was when my cousin's mother other passed away a couple years ago. My cousin was disfellowshipped at age 16, first of all. The family let her sit with them at the funeral, but her father told her that he didn't want her anywhere near them after it was over. Not even for the gathering after. She was a mess. My JW mother, (who's always been more balanced than most) went to her and hugged her, cried with her, offered to help if she needed it. The rest of the congregation, her family included, ignored her. HER MOTHER HAD JUST DIED. People do not know where to draw the line. My mom cried about how my cousin was treated. I wish more JWs had the common sense and balance that my mom does. It's so sad that even in the event of a death, the indoctrination is still alive and thriving.
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
status offlineJourney
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You have done such a great job of dealing with things. I'm glad that you could.
I never did go to a jw funeral. Now that I hear about them, I don't want to go. I remember at my grandmother's funeral, my father broke down and sobbed. He was in so much pain. He'd always been close to her.
nobodyknows, I hope I would have done what your mother did. That was wonderful of her. She showed a great deal of respect and humanity with that hug.
My mother-in-laws funeral. I wish we had it on tape. It was not a JW funeral, but just a regular ol' run of the mill funeral given graveside. Well, something tickled my husband for some reason and he started to laugh. He covered his face and I got a kleenex from his cousin behind us and he put that over his face. His friends were standing off the the side looking so worried. I had my arm around him as he doubled over in his chair. Everyone thought he was crying.
Then the minister got up and said it had really touched him to see Edna's family in agony, that loss like that, yadda yadda yadda......
Larry kept trying to show me that he was laughing. He was afraid I was worried. I was puzzled was all. I told myself "He's not laughing, he's not laughing," because if I'd seen him laughing, I would have broken into a major laugh too, and I don't know if I could have hidden it as well as he did.
He is NOT a cold hearted man. He's a sweet, loving man. But his mother, the atheist, had picked "Amazing Grace" as the song for her funeral and wanted the local Methodist minister to do the funeral. And the song was done with bagpipes and played on a boom box. Something about it felt like a saturday night live skit. So, he just burst into laughter that would not stop. He was laughing so hard. Luckily, I guess, nobody knew he was laughing. But I wonder if people realized he was laughing if they'd have laughed too.
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I am so sorry Andria for the loss of your Mom. It is a difficult thing to feel so helpless watching a loved one die. Sorrow is a journey that we all take but it is always so different for each of us. When my Mom was dying she informed me that she didn't want a memorial but perhaps just an announcement at the hall of her passing. I told her I wouldn't go to one and when some of the grandkids decided that they wanted to do it I told them that was fine but I wasn't going to go to it. Two of my sons that are out of the Borg didn't go either. Funny that they decided to try to include my Dad in the service since Mom had insisted that he didn't want a memorial either so she refused to allow it. I simply don't like the memorials in the KH's. I am an emotional person that has gotten even more emotional as I have aged. I end up with head aches and feel physically sick after going to one of them. I try to stifle myself but it is impossible.
I agree that the memorials at the hall are unnatural and really don't help someone to remember the departed at all.
Try to remember the good times with your Mom Andria. It seems to help me.
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Wonderful Somebody ... I don't really want to know what happens after death either. I'm also not bothered with how the world began ... as it's here, I'm living on it and like you ... plan to make the most of my life. I don't think it's that jdubs at 'memorial' services don't have common sense ... I truly believe the majority are too fearful of reproach from the others if they show 'weakness' and get upset for the loss of loved ones. It's the oddest thing to go to a funeral service and not see at least one person shedding a quiet tear! As for your jdub mum ... she sounds just like my mum. My mum would have comforted someone even at the risk of being ostracised and so would my dad ... I think that's why they got into trouble in the past.
Janet ... I have seen people laughing at funerals and it's quite normal. Some laugh because they see the funny side of things like Larry did .... I wouldn't have been able to look at him seriously either had I been there like you were! Some people laugh because they are just too nervous or upset not to. A friend of mine died young from cancer and she pre-planned her entire funeral service from start to finish. She was Catholic and had the full mass to begin with ... complete with 'offerings' ... where certain people take something that means something to them about the person, and put it on the coffin. For her 'in the ground' bit ... she had the 1812th Overture played really loudly. I wasn't the only one to start laughing over that bit! Catherine had such a sense of humour that it was hard NOT to laugh through most of her service ... it was a joyous day despite the sadness. That's what my dad wanted ... a joyous day despite the sadness and he got it. It's just sad that so many jdubs in this big old world of ours ... are stifled to within an inch of their always-led lives. Death scares them.
Like you Dee ... I've become more emotional as I've aged. I'm not so sure I will be going to any jdub 'memorial' services in future ....... although now I only have my dad left who is a jdub and he wants what we had for mum (phew) ....... but there is my older bro and eventually it will be his turn to go. He will want the full jdub 'lecture' ...... so we may pay our respects elsewhere, unless his daughters want us there I guess. I will take your advice and try to remember the good times Dee ..... perhaps it will be better when I'm feeling well.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Rhonda,
When my mothers cousin died, and it goes back to years ago, she simply told the JW family to kiss her ass because she had been there and didn't need them telling how to deal with death because they were busy being the JW and forgot that was her mother.
Why family is as they are....Fence rider has asked me to be at her memorial and that's still up for question; although her family isn't JW; thankgoodness! and of course I will offer support to them.
As I've said, death of a parent is not easy whether or not religion is involved.
status offlineFiguringitout20
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I totally get the laughter thing. Sometimes when you're in a place where laughter is inappropriate and you aren't supposed to laugh it makes it even harder to control if something tickles your funny bone.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Fig....years ago fence rider would tell me that I laugh at inappropriate times. I'm thinking, I find the humor with how everything seems so serious for her - but, I kept my mouth shut.
I've done the serious stuff and still do with politics but it's on my terms not her's.
Because we are a military family and she is conscientious objector; that's another thing that I find interesting because she too enjoys political studies. One day I asked her why she gives a hoot if the big A is coming and you don't believe in how this world is going, why question everything? Her reply was that when going from door-to-door; they need knowing how to tell someone why this world is so bad and that Jehovah's day is comingChill Pill
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offlineCacky
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A few weeks ago, some jws whom I didn't know knocked on the door. I hadn't prepared in advance what I'd say, and out of my mouth popped, "I'm an apostate." Ugh! I don't want to label myself with THEIR labels! It just popped out. It turns out they were with the sign language congregation and were wanting to see my son, who wasn't home. Next time I don't plan to tell them I'm an apostate. I hope to get into a conversation with them and ask them some good questions. Oh well, I wasn't prepared and it took me by surprise.
status offlineJourney
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Cacky, That gave me a tickle. I used the word apostate for a while. Doesn't bother me. BUT, they put so much emphasis on it that about 18 years ago when we lived up the road two women rushed so fast off our porch that Larry thought one of them was going to fall, when Larry said, "My wife is a known apostate." LOL What the heck? Yes, I am an apostate and there is venom in my fingernails and fire in my eyes that I can shoot out and fry your brain into believing something else. Geesh.
Using the word "shunned" today took it off me and put it on them. THEY are the shunners, not us. THEY ARE. I am nothing to them anymore, they just don't know it. I don't view their religion as viable and certainly not as true. I don't care what they do. But there is no reason for me to carry a label when they are the ones doing something that shows a great lack of compassion.
Hugs, Janet
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You did well regardless of what popped out Cathy. The mood I'm in with jdubs right now ... they'd be better off giving our house a wide berth. And yet ... strangely enough ... I'm kind of hoping someone does bang on the door and it's some I know who knows that my mum died a couple of weeks back ... so they will blurt out how sad it is and how lovely it will be to see her 'in the new system' .................. THEN I'll have carte blanche to have some fun!
As Janet pointed out ....... they do not show compassion. Full stop. And I honestly DO believe that it must go against the nature of some of the erstwhile jdubs!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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offlineFiguringitout20
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Just wondering... do you think the GB is a complete fraud and know they are just making stuff up for everyone to follow? Or do you think they genuinely think they are being directed by God to lead the org?
Have you ever met anyone from the GB? I took a trip to NY to see Bethel and the Farms when I was in my teens (waste of a vacation, I know). I never saw any member of the GB while there, but they were referenced to like they were celebrities. I saw the humble dwellings of the regular Bethel folk. I was curious to see how the GB lived.
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I don't believe they are the complete fraud many people think they are. Many of them have truly dedicated their life to serve big J, and somewhere along the line, big J and the organization became blurry, or perhaps melded into one. What little evidence there is, it shows they are not as sure about their own doctrine as they would want you to believe. Ray Franz provided a lot of information about the mechanics and the politics of how they function. He quoted Nathan Knorr as saying he believed it was the truth, he believed that Jehovah was directing the work, but he was unsure of the whole 1914/last days generation story. At one time, they considered whether to produce "new light" that the end of the gentile times really came in 1957 with the launch of Sputnik -- "there will be great signs in the heavens...." This was around the time that 1975 turned out to be just another ordinary year. They were scrambling for ideas to explain away the blunder of Fred Franz's interpretation of Bible chronology... which was eventually accomplished by the new "overlapping generations" doctrine. What a joke.
The governing body member of my family who served as the Secretary Treasurer did not live a lavish lifestyle, nor was his apartment anything special. Other than he and his wife had their own kitchen and bathroom, and I think it was a two bedroom apartment (I stayed with them for a couple of days in 1969 1974), it was not as nice or as big as the home my family lived in, which was just a middle class home in suburbia. When he died in 2001, there was no bank roll of money, no investments, no treasure to be found. Although he traveled all over the world, his trips were exhausting, and he traveled and worked many times for 24 hours with out sleep. He often worked well into the night in his office or in his apartment. He took vacations occasionally, he stayed with us several times and was able to relax. But even then, he would give an impromptu talk to the congregations (the local brothers would rent an auditorium on occasion) or he would give a picture presentation of his recent travels to our congregation. He rarely got away from the duties of his job.
I think some of them may be sincere. I don't say that because the usual attacks on the governing body do not fit my personal experience with my uncle, or with some of the other GB members who sometimes came to Utah and stayed with my parents. I have tried for years to not let my personal of family bias get in the way of my journey out of the Borg. I see the Borg as another American corporation... whose motives are not always pure, and sometimes involve the perpetuation of themselves at any cost, and subsequently, the pursuit of financial gain. Their methods are sometimes ruthless, and I have seen my family member bark out judgmental comments to individuals and to the assembled multitude at District Conventions. I also see him through Ray Franz's eyes as a conflicted man, ultimately putting the Borg above his own sense of reason and his own sense of justice. He never let on to his own biological brothers what went on at the top.
That's my two cents. I have no idea of how things might have changed since the days he was on the GB. I doubt it has changed a lot, but who knows? I think we are due for another member jumping overboard and spilling his guts in a tell-all story.
“The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn but to unlearn.” ~ Gloria Steinem
Last Edited By: YammerHammer 5 days ago. Edited 2 times.
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Thank you for the insights yammer!
status offlineKefka6
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i actually met one of the gb when i was first learning TATT, and he seemed to be niceish i forget what his last name was, but he was the oldest of the gb, i dont know if hes dead already. But from what i saw it seemed that he did believe everything that he said. unfortunately he was also at the age were he was a little senile and didnt care about anything he said. He kind of reminded me of pat robertson, except that i couldnt make fun of him...openly at least.
now im not really sure if all of the gb actually believe in this giant pyramid scheme, but from the way they've been acting recently have begun to think that at least subconciously they know that this is bs. although i have no proof so take what i say with a huge grain of salt.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Kefka6 - Yammer is always someone that gives us 'food for thought' as others.
When listening to fence rider sister, she is old and needs believing that her life was not wasted on the Borg...
My opinion, some from the governing probably do believe their own rhetoric - some probably know it's all bullshit but they are not about to upset the apple cart as to their status. They will just continue following the party line for how they are told because it's about having status and look good to the rank and file members that will believe whatever they are toldBow down before you
That religion sickens mepullhair
status offlineSwingLifeAway
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The governing body member of my family who served as the Secretary Treasurer did not live a lavish lifestyle, nor was his apartment anything special. Other than he and his wife had their own kitchen and bathroom, and I think it was a two bedroom apartment (I stayed with them for a couple of days in 1969 1974), it was not as nice or as big as the home my family lived in, which was just a middle class home in suburbia.
I agree that JW's do not live lavishly by "suburban standards" but I'd just like to say that this was in, I'm assuming, in Brooklyn Heights?
That property is a goldmine. That neighborhood is beautiful these days. If I could afford it... I would move into an old Watchtower building and love the shit out of it. If you live in that city space is at the ultimate premium and in my opinion those who lived at the Headquarters in the Heights get a fantastic deal on housing. And then also to get free food and not have to use public transport to and from work is also very ideal.
In fact my friend just moved to the area and I was telling him about how the WTBTS is selling their property and maybe he could pick himself up a nice apartment building. HAH.
My relatives had nice Brooklyn apartments for years and years. Now one couple is overseas going to branches all over Eastern Europe. If you want to travel what could be better? Of course the thing is, they fell into that. The WTBTS told them to do it and they obeyed. Many other people I know have been put on special pioneering assignments.
I know one couple that used to have a nice apartment in the Heights. The society did not need them anymore so they were reassigned to special pioneering in Long Island. Long Island, obviously, is really expensive. I have not been to their new home but I understand it is very very small. They cannot live off the stipend, so he has to work part time. The home does not a full door for a second exit. I'm not sure if there is a removable window... but there must be... I guess. Just goes to show it's like everything else in the world these days, a few get it all but many more get the shaft!
-Dave
“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy.' They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
- John Lennon
status offlineYammerHammer
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Your points are well taken Dave. There are certain "perks" that go along with GB members that are almost priceless. They travel the world and are treated like royalty. The point about the property value of those Watchtower buildings, so true. But have you ever met a board director of a corporation that employs maybe 7,000,000 people? The corporation I work for only has about 50,000 workers, they are a 15 billion dollar/year company, with employees and divisions all over the world. I can promise you that any one of the directors of the corporation live far more lavish lifestyles than do any GB members. They probably work half as hard. And they have privacy when they want it. If you traveled around with one of these GB members, you realize they have almost no privacy... they are always "on stage" and expected to give a performance.
I cannot begin to compare the lifestyle of the GB dudes to those at the top of a typical big corporation. The CEO of my company has an annual income of over $30,000,000 (with bonuses and stock options). I would venture to guess that the other directors earn a few million a year. These corporate big shots retire at 65 or 70 with literally millions of dollars, and trust funds for their family members--a child of one of these guys is healed for the rest of his/her life. And the properties they own and live in? The apartments in the Brooklyn Heights buildings don't even come close. The only high-up person in the Borg that had a close proximity to the typical American corporate officer was Rutherford. His mansion in California was a liability to a religious group who believed all should be dedicated to God and was disposed of.
The GB live well... all of their needs are taken care of by dutiful servants. My point is there is no real personal wealth for any of them. I dunno, maybe I am deluded, but I have never seen any evidence of the GB amassing fortunes.
“The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn but to unlearn.” ~ Gloria Steinem
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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I don't believe the members of the GB are frauds in the true sense of the word either Figgy. Like David ... I also think the BG honestly believe in their chosen or inherited religion. I don't even thing they're overly evil however ... I do believe that they use whatever power they have to make their own lives more entertaining. They are the heads of a large publishing company. They certainly don't get salaries anywhere near like usual heads of companies ..... but I don't believe they go without anything either.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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The JW Uniform
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status offlinepalmel1234
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Sep 16 14 9:52 AM
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Sailaway, it's been four days since you first posted this and still no pictures. impatiently waiting
Don't think you're going to get away that easy! Big Grin
On the topic of JW uniform, you are so right that we looked like we were in a cult!
Skirts ALWAYS had to be below the knees. My mother appointed herself as JW fashion police, and did her JW duty by “correcting” any sister that came to the kingdom hall in a too short skirt. She also took it upon herself to gossip about anyone that didn’t dress appropriately.
My mother imposed a strict dress code policy. I wasn’t allowed to wear red lipstick or nail polish, earrings had to be smaller than the size of a nickel, skirts had to be below the knees and necklines could not show the collar bone.
Even after leaving the borg, I remember when I wore shorts I felt “exposed”. It took a long time for me to feel comfortable wearing a swimsuit at the beach, sometimes I still feel self conscious.
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status offlineSailAway
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whytebyrd2 wrote:
I read that drivel about the GB dictating how a 'mature' woman should dress. Those kinds of things bugged me when I was IN! How dare they! Maybe those hot mature women are getting them a little turned on : @ can't have that!
When I left the first thing's I bought were a black mini skirt and some leather pants for playing out at gigs but so what. They were fun to wear. I remember once scarfing up a pair of jeans on sale that had embroidered firebirds on the legs (still have them). I have been told many times that I look younger than I am so I go with it as you should to. 50 IS the new 30!
I think it's great you are dressing to the nines and having a blast doing it. That is as it should be.
I'm just steaming everytime I think of those mealy mouthed f#*tard reject GB guys making statements like that. Ooh! (Flounces off in a huff)Stuff it Whytebyrd, I can totally picture you flouncing off in a huff! smiley: roll
I have a pair of jeans that have sparklies on the butt! It never ceases to floor me when I mention that I have two kids in their thirties, and the person says, "Oh, I thought you were in your thirties!" I guess 50 is the new 30! I want to say, "Get some glasses!", but it does make my day!
status offlineSailAway
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palmel1234 wrote:
Sailaway, it's been four days since you first posted this and still no pictures. impatiently waiting
Don't think you're going to get away that easy! Big Grin
On the topic of JW uniform, you are so right that we looked like we were in a cult!
Skirts ALWAYS had to be below the knees. My mother appointed herself as JW fashion police, and did her JW duty by “correcting” any sister that came to the kingdom hall in a too short skirt. She also took it upon herself to gossip about anyone that didn’t dress appropriately.
My mother imposed a strict dress code policy. I wasn’t allowed to wear red lipstick or nail polish, earrings had to be smaller than the size of a nickel, skirts had to be below the knees and necklines could not show the collar bone.
Even after leaving the borg, I remember when I wore shorts I felt “exposed”. It took a long time for me to feel comfortable wearing a swimsuit at the beach, sometimes I still feel self conscious.
Palmel, it sounds like your mom was particularly strict. There were always the self-appointed fashion police. I was once told by an elder's wife that my daughter's clothes were "frumpy". smiley: eyes Looking back, she was right. We are both out now! I don't know if she is mentally out though. She was a born-in from a large JW family. You know the type-- always on the stage at the assemblies and conventions, Bethelites, pioneers and elders, etc. in the family.
Funny thing was, we were "studying the bible" with a nun together. It was her "study", but not once did she use the Bible! I found that odd. Her husband, also a born-in, went "apostate" in a really big way-- he had to be escorted off the Kingdom Hall stage. Yeah He subsequently went off the deep end, behaved badly, and they are divorced. She hasn't been to the KH in over 10 years. I wonder how she is doing sometimes. By the time I left, she still had no contact with her JW family, but there was a large contingent of her family that left The Lie.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Pictures? Of the hottie in the hot dress? They are where? Come on Mrs Rubbity .... show us your hottie-ness!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineKBG
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AndriaSyxx wrote:
Pictures? Of the hottie in the hot dress? They are where? Come on Mrs Rubbity .... show us your hottie-ness!
banana danceHottie PicsRasta bananaHottie PicsRasta bananaHottie Picsbanana dance
status offlineBilly Sugger
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image
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
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Hey Di
I've been away and only just seen this!! I don't even know if the wedding has already happened lol!! If it has....I do hope you wore the sassy number, why hide your light under a bushel??? smiley: wink If it's still to come get that sexy dress out and flaunt it!!
You are in your prime............we women spend so many of our younger years worrying about imaginary short-comings.............and then the rest of our years worrying about the 'suitablity' or whether our clothes are 'age-appropriate'.......
Our clothes should be body-appropriate........you've got a good'un so go for it girlie whee...........what's the point of escaping their rules if we still let them affect our decisions xxxx
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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*peers in*
What? STILL no photos? Honestly Mrs Rubbity ........
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineBilly Sugger
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Shocking state of affairs......
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
status offlineSailAway
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09326399a54fa9ee9964dbd33fd1c55ec661f67d
smiley: roll smiley: rollsmiley: roll Lol! You guys are ALL Silly Buggers! smiley: rollsmiley: rollsmiley: roll
I will throw you a bone! Here is a pic of the 3 1/2 inch heels I will be wearing along with my metallic handbag with bling! I got my hair cut, colored and highlighted at one of Elle Magazine's top 100 salons in the US for the last five years running. There are only two in my state! Next up is make up. My friend and I are going on a spree at Sephora on Friday.
One thing is certain, I am not terribly photogenic! If someone does manage to get a good shot of me in my hot dress smiley: wink on the day of the wedding, PERHAPS I will post it on the Free and Clear Board in late October-- no promises here! Will I ever live this down? Oh no
SailAway
BTW, this is so NOT the way I expected this thread to evolve, but it's been fun! banana dance
status offlineBilly Sugger
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Pictures!! Pictures!! Pictures!!
You hot person, you x
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
status offlineMerchant of Malice
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Those shoes!
And please please please show pics of the dress...from the description it sounds lovely!!!
status offlineKBG
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SailAway wrote:
09326399a54fa9ee9964dbd33fd1c55ec661f67d
smiley: roll smiley: rollsmiley: roll Lol! You guys are ALL Silly Buggers! smiley: rollsmiley: rollsmiley: roll
I will throw you a bone! Here is a pic of the 3 1/2 inch heels I will be wearing along with my metallic handbag with bling!
... Will I ever live this down? Oh no
SailAway
BTW, this is so NOT the way I expected this thread to evolve, but it's been fun! banana dance
The bone is better than nothing, but, its too dry, We need some flesh on the NEXT bone.
No, you won't live it down, it will just get worse and bigger the more you prolong satisfying us.
Yes, it has been fun, and you are a good sport.
status offlinepalmel1234
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Beautiful shoes and clutch, but I agree with KBG, the bone is a bit dry.
You have to understand, Sailaway, the borg's draconian rules were so stifling, it's great to see
when someone is finally able to fully express themselves!
Please let us know when you post a picture in the Free&Clear section,
we want to share in a little bit of your new found freedom.
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Will I ever live this down?
Errrr.........NOPE smiley: wink
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlineSailAway
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We had a lovely time at my nephew's wedding! It was held at The Branford House in Groton, CT USA Branford House
Photos posted on the Free and Clear Board. Throw heart kisses
The 14th-century Persian poet Hafiz wrote:
Every child has known God,
Not the God of names,
Not the God of don'ts,
Not the God who ever does anything weird,
But the God who knows only four words,
And keeps repeating them, saying:
"Come Dance with Me."
Come Dance
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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LOVE the shoes and the blingy bag. As for you not being photogenic .... well now young lady ...... you doth protest too mucheth! You not only looked hot, and sexy and gorgeous ...... you photograph REALLY well!!!!! Do I need to wash out your mouth with soap for tattle tailing us??? haha
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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The JW Uniform
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offlineSailAway
The JW Uniform
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True Story: One day in a time long, long ago, in a place not too far away, I went to a door in field service. The householder (Please forgive the usage of JW terminology, I don’t want to go through the pain of putting it all in quotation marks or figure out how to say it differently for the purpose of this rant.) asked if JWs were required to wear uniforms. She commented that it seemed that the men all wore suits, white shirts and ties and the women wore white shirts, dark skirts, nylons and flat shoes. Like the good JW I assured her that we were free to wear whatever we liked as long as it was appropriate for the ministry and brought honor to our god and dignity to our message. smiley: embarassed
Present day: We are invited to my nephew’s wedding. I am completely confused as to what to wear. My sister, the mother of the groom, is wearing a mother-of-the-bride full-length gown. It is a dark jewel tone teal color, with sheer full-length sleeves and has a very steep neckline. My sister is literally six feet tall and weighs more than 300 lbs. I know it’s important that she likes what she is wearing, feels comfortable and confident, but seriously? smiley: eek I would have nightmares about glowing in the dark, being seen from across the planet, never mind the room, and not blending in. The good JW in me would never call attention to myself in that way.
Now to my dress: I went to a local boutique. The owner talked me into a simple, knee-length dress, ballet sleeve, scoop neck princess seam dress (Think JJill sytle). It has a nice cut and is black with fall colors. It is pretty and comfortable. The wedding is in late October. The shop owner went on about how I could dress it up with heels and jewelry. I bought it, but I wasn't one hundred percent convinced, so I went to another local shop. The second shop owner convinced me that I look fantastic in a well-made, tight-fitting, above-the-knee, blue-gray number. It is not low-cut, but has a v-neck. It is above the knee and it definitely shows off my size 10 figure, accentuating my long legs, great butt (yes, that has been the general consensus over the years) and as an added bonus, it hides my short waist. My first thought when I put it on was, “Wow, but should a 56-year-old woman wear this dress to a wedding?” No, I will not post a picture!
I showed the two dresses to a neighbor friend. She said nix on the first—too much like pajamas. She says I’m absolutely stunning in the blue-gray dress—must wear it to the wedding. She will help with accessories and make-up. What the heck? Is this conservative JW programming kicking in? All the messages that a wedding needs to honor god, is a dignified and solemn occasion and there should be no showy displays are all going off like sirens in my head. Devil or Angel
Added freak-out moment: I’m getting together several boxes to ship to our daughter in Central America—a library of baby books, her handmade baby blankets, my daughter’s writings through grade school, high school and college, Christmas gifts for this year since we will not be going to visit until after the baby is born in February and old photos. In every single photo she has of me I am dressed like a freaking cult member— neck lines up to my chin, skirts well below the knees or ankle length!Oh no The only difference between what I wore and what a Mennonite or Amish woman might wear is truly only that I didn't make the clothes myself, because I can't sew to save my life. Everything was bought on clearance or in a consignment shop. I always thought I looked nice. Not so much.Crazy
When I left the borg I emptied my closet of dresses, suits and heels and swore never to wear nylons ever again. I swore off the JW uniform. I kept my JJill/Eileen Fisher type skirts and tops, but haven’t worn them in three years. Maybe it’s time to do another closet purge? How has your dress changed since you left the borg? What would you wear to a wedding or not wear to a wedding? Is it OK to go to a wedding in a hot little dress and show off your figure, or should a 56-year-old soon-to-be grandmother wear something a little more conservative, maybe not a pajama dress, but something somewhere in the middle? Help! Throw heart kisses
The 14th-century Persian poet Hafiz wrote:
Every child has known God,
Not the God of names,
Not the God of don'ts,
Not the God who ever does anything weird,
But the God who knows only four words,
And keeps repeating them, saying:
"Come Dance with Me."
Come Dance
Last Edited By: SailAway Sep 12 14 5:57 PM. Edited 2 times.
status offlineIan
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Dress how you feel most comfortable and leave the overthinking to them. Relax, be yourself and enjoy the wedding!
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Is it OK to go to a wedding in a hot little dress and show off your figure, or should a 56-year-old soon-to-be grandmother wear something a little more conservative, maybe not a pajama dress, but something somewhere in the middle? Help! Throw heart kisses
Hands down, without question - the hot little dress.
Especially at 56, Sailaway.
If you have it, flaunt it and if you want to show off your best feature, be sure to make an entrance by walking into the room backwards!
full moon
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status offlineJourney
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I really believe that the fashion thing that dictates what women should wear may be dictated by each individual congregation or maybe each region. I noticed things like that when I became a JW. In our congregation you ought not to have worn long dresses, which I loved, and in another congregation you shouldn't wear dressy boots at all. So, I wore what they said was proper, on OUR congregation. But there was one sister who loved those feminine knee high boots with the pointed toe (we're talking the late 1970s.) She came to our congregation even though she lived in another part of the county, because our congregation was fine with her choice of shoes.
I visited a congregation one Sunday in my old neighborhood. I was snubbed. ONE person spoke to us. Likely due to how I was dressed. I was shocked when I walked in and saw women decked out in colorful suits, expensive looking jewelry, hair all done perfectly, etc.
As for what your sister wore. It is real easy to judge other people. But if it made her happy, why not base your judgement on that? You are doing what you are concerned about others doing to you. And you had trouble picking your own outfit. Your sister is happy wearing what she wore. You be happy wearing what you wear and just be glad for all that.
This is from a woman who probably regularly makes a total fool out of herself, and loves it. I see no reason your sister cannot wear what gives her joy. I do it. ANYONE should be able to do that without judgement from other people.
Do what YOU want to do. Have confidence and enjoy your life. You are who you ARE. So am I. I have done everything from shave my head down to a buzz cute, to dying my hair pink, dying my hair purple, dressing colorfully, and having a lot of fun doing so.
The JWs teach us to be people pleasers, the people being them. When we move away from that, it's hard to recognize that WE are the person we need to please. They ingrain it so tightly in our heads that we have to please someone other than ourselves. And society does that to us too. So, be happy for your sister that she isn't as bound to JW directives as so many are.
One good reason your sister shouldn't have dressed like that? I bet there is no good reason. Only shallow reasons we've picked up from our being sheep of the WTS for years of our lives, and from having society standards shoved at us night and day and trying to follow them closely.
I bet you looked great in that outfit. Did you have fun? I hope you did! And yes! good for you to be looking at clothes that suit YOU rather than any JW in your congregation. I'm glad for you. Go enjoy this life! I sure am, and so are a lot of other ex JWs. We have a perspective many people don't have, in that we broke from something that was imprisoning our personal selves.
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The "hot" dress sounds fine to me.
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If you are like me, you don't have countless occasions that call for dressing up. So I say, wear what makes you feel fabulous, look your best, and puts a sparkle in your eyes. One day in the future (when you might not be able to pull it off anymore) it might tickle you no end to look at the pictures of that day and say "hot damn, I looked good!" Chuckle Obviously, I vote for the blue-gray dress, since it shows your "assets" best, lol. There is nothing more attractive than a well-dressed, confident woman. If you are comfortable pulling it off...I say "go for it." clapping Thumbs up!
P.S. "They're not the boss of you........" Nah Nah
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I say the hot dress is the one. 56 is the new 36 anyway!
I remember walking up to a guy's house with my dad when I was a teen in service and the guy gets this nervous look. We introduce ourselves as JWs and he looks relieved and says, "oh good. I thought you guys were the IRS!" LOL
We all had a good laugh and he took a WT.
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Go looking your absolute BEST! You deserve that--and more.
BTW, as for the 'uniform'...last week at about five pm (5:00 PM!) my husband noticed two men walked up our drive wearing identical black suits, white shirts with neckties. His first thought? Mormons. No, he concluded before they'd made another step, JWs, as LDS missionaries come on bikes, and wearing plastic name tags in lieu of suit coats. He met the Witz at the front door and they. smilingly, handed him a folded sheet of paper advertising
JW.org
to answer all your questions. Huh? I remember when the WT included dire warnings about the evils of the internet? Now it's one of 'em.
The Wits are just THRILLED with it. (My 92-year-old mother bought an iPad and filled its entire desktop with Watchtower resources so she could keep up with the 'theocratic' crowd although she couldn't get into her own email without help.)
It took these two men longer to get to the door from the sidewalk than it did to make their presentation and leave. Is the Theocratic Ministry School going out of business? Clearly the cheap suit business is still going strong.
Cee Cee
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Ian wrote:
Dress how you feel most comfortable and leave the overthinking to them. Relax, be yourself and enjoy the wedding!Ian, this is not the first time I've been accused of over thinking something! Thanks for the reminder!
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birdwoman2 wrote:
Is it OK to go to a wedding in a hot little dress and show off your figure, or should a 56-year-old soon-to-be grandmother wear something a little more conservative, maybe not a pajama dress, but something somewhere in the middle? Help! Throw heart kisses
Hands down, without question - the hot little dress.
Especially at 56, Sailaway.
If you have it, flaunt it and if you want to show off your best feature, be sure to make an entrance by walking into the room backwards!
full moon
Belly dancer
Birdworman, I think an entrance walking backwards on heels is beyond my abilities! smiley: roll
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Journey wrote:
I really believe that the fashion thing that dictates what women should wear may be dictated by each individual congregation or maybe each region. I noticed things like that when I became a JW. In our congregation you ought not to have worn long dresses, which I loved, and in another congregation you shouldn't wear dressy boots at all. So, I wore what they said was proper, on OUR congregation. But there was one sister who loved those feminine knee high boots with the pointed toe (we're talking the late 1970s.) She came to our congregation even though she lived in another part of the county, because our congregation was fine with her choice of shoes.
I visited a congregation one Sunday in my old neighborhood. I was snubbed. ONE person spoke to us. Likely due to how I was dressed. I was shocked when I walked in and saw women decked out in colorful suits, expensive looking jewelry, hair all done perfectly, etc.
As for what your sister wore. It is real easy to judge other people. But if it made her happy, why not base your judgement on that? You are doing what you are concerned about others doing to you. And you had trouble picking your own outfit. Your sister is happy wearing what she wore. You be happy wearing what you wear and just be glad for all that.
This is from a woman who probably regularly makes a total fool out of herself, and loves it. I see no reason your sister cannot wear what gives her joy. I do it. ANYONE should be able to do that without judgement from other people.
Do what YOU want to do. Have confidence and enjoy your life. You are who you ARE. So am I. I have done everything from shave my head down to a buzz cute, to dying my hair pink, dying my hair purple, dressing colorfully, and having a lot of fun doing so.
The JWs teach us to be people pleasers, the people being them. When we move away from that, it's hard to recognize that WE are the person we need to please. They ingrain it so tightly in our heads that we have to please someone other than ourselves. And society does that to us too. So, be happy for your sister that she isn't as bound to JW directives as so many are.
One good reason your sister shouldn't have dressed like that? I bet there is no good reason. Only shallow reasons we've picked up from our being sheep of the WTS for years of our lives, and from having society standards shoved at us night and day and trying to follow them closely.
I bet you looked great in that outfit. Did you have fun? I hope you did! And yes! good for you to be looking at clothes that suit YOU rather than any JW in your congregation. I'm glad for you. Go enjoy this life! I sure am, and so are a lot of other ex JWs. We have a perspective many people don't have, in that we broke from something that was imprisoning our personal selves.Journey, yes, there are fashion police in each congregation. As I said, I think it's important that my sister likes what she chooses to wear and feels comfortable and confident. I hope her dress works for her. It is not my taste, but that doesn't matter. I am trying to think through and counteract the programming instilled in me to not show in any way that I'm a sexual being. At the same time, I want to make sure I can pull off the look I choose. I am still exploring who I am, and my tastes are definitely changing!
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cangie wrote:
If you are like me, you don't have countless occasions that call for dressing up. So I say, wear what makes you feel fabulous, look your best, and puts a sparkle in your eyes. One day in the future (when you might not be able to pull it off anymore) it might tickle you no end to look at the pictures of that day and say "hot damn, I looked good!" Chuckle Obviously, I vote for the blue-gray dress, since it shows your "assets" best, lol. There is nothing more attractive than a well-dressed, confident woman. If you are comfortable pulling it off...I say "go for it." clapping Thumbs up!
P.S. "They're not the boss of you........" Nah Nah
Lol, Cangie for voting up my "assets"! I took the dress over to the bride's house tonight, and she gave me two thumbs up! Hot damn, I'm gonna look good-- smokin' even! laughing devil
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Marked for life wrote:
I say the hot dress is the one. 56 is the new 36 anyway!
I remember walking up to a guy's house with my dad when I was a teen in service and the guy gets this nervous look. We introduce ourselves as JWs and he looks relieved and says, "oh good. I thought you guys were the IRS!" LOL
We all had a good laugh and he took a WT.I love that, Marked for life-- 56 is the new 36! I hope you've stopped dressing like the IRS by now!
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Cee Cee wrote:
Go looking your absolute BEST! You deserve that--and more.
BTW, as for the 'uniform'...last week at about five pm (5:00 PM!) my husband noticed two men walked up our drive wearing identical black suits, white shirts with neckties. His first thought? Mormons. No, he concluded before they'd made another step, JWs, as LDS missionaries come on bikes, and wearing plastic name tags in lieu of suit coats. He met the Witz at the front door and they. smilingly, handed him a folded sheet of paper advertising
JW.org
to answer all your questions. Huh? I remember when the WT included dire warnings about the evils of the internet? Now it's one of 'em.
The Wits are just THRILLED with it. (My 92-year-old mother bought an iPad and filled its entire desktop with Watchtower resources so she could keep up with the 'theocratic' crowd although she couldn't get into her own email without help.)
It took these two men longer to get to the door from the sidewalk than it did to make their presentation and leave. Is the Theocratic Ministry School going out of business? Clearly the cheap suit business is still going strong.
Cee CeeCee Cee, I guess that woman was right! JW clones in cheap suits at your door! Yikes!
Interesting that your 92-year-old mother is all gung ho for "theocratic" technology! My in-laws are in their early 90's, and they will have nothing to do with it. They still have a rotary dial phone for crying out loud. As far as they are concerned, computers and the Internet are from the devil. I can just imagine the sneer on my MIL's face during the latest meeting demos for using iPads in service! OMG
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I think the way I dress now would have them doing handstands in a muck cart, I haven't worn a suit since my son in laws wedding 4 years ago, and then I bought a decent one that looked good.
Sailaway, get that hot dress on yer body.........................and please post pics just so we can make sure it's hot, other wise the non hotness police will be on your case.
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
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Mrs Rubbity my sweet ... if I had 'a size 10 figure, accentuating my long legs, great butt ... I'd go for the hot dress too! Walking in backwards would most certainly show off that great butt ... great advice Dianne!!!
I am a fan of the longer skirt. I do have long legs but they are not nice. My butt is not great but Gav loves it and that's fine by me.
I didn't have trouble fitting into work mode when I first started work as I was already wearing modest skirts, nice blouses, pantyhose and mid-heeled shoes. When I walked away from the religion ... my dress sense started to evolve. Instead of the modest skirt that had a little volume and movement in it ... I'd opt for the pencil skirt with a daring small split up the back! I know! Heathen right?
My heels increased in height from low-mid to breakneck high. Not Jimmy Choo high but high enough. Instead of just the nice modest skirt and nice blouse ..... I tweaked it up a fraction to a really nice suit with cami top ..... lower than my usual neckline but not low enough to be leered at. Although that still happened regardless of the neckline. I miss those days ... I'm not leered at nearly enough anymore!!!!
You wear your hot little number, shake that great butt of yours and that will shake off a little more excess jdub droppings young lady!!!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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SailAway wrote:
Maybe it’s time to do another closet purge? How has your dress changed since you left the borg? What would you wear to a wedding or not wear to a wedding? Is it OK to go to a wedding in a hot little dress and show off your figure, or should a 56-year-old soon-to-be grandmother wear something a little more conservative, maybe not a pajama dress, but something somewhere in the middle?
Definitely the hot dress! Own it.
I've learned over the last couple years of fading out of the org that I have no idea what sort of style I like! Things I used to think looked nice and appropriate make me want to vomit now. I will say, it's always a great feeling when I'm able to show a little cleavage on a night out!
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
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SailAway wrote:
...Wow, but should a 56-year-old woman wear this dress to a wedding?” No, I will not post a picture!.....
BOO HISSSS!!!! Post a pic, we want to see. Chop your head off if you fear JW repercussions.
Hot number for sure, be hot today, you can always be old tomorrow.
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nobodyknows wrote:
SailAway wrote:
Maybe it’s time to do another closet purge? How has your dress changed since you left the borg? What would you wear to a wedding or not wear to a wedding? Is it OK to go to a wedding in a hot little dress and show off your figure, or should a 56-year-old soon-to-be grandmother wear something a little more conservative, maybe not a pajama dress, but something somewhere in the middle?
Definitely the hot dress! Own it.
I've learned over the last couple years of fading out of the org that I have no idea what sort of style I like! Things I used to think looked nice and appropriate make me want to vomit now. I will say, it's always a great feeling when I'm able to show a little cleavage on a night out!Yes, Nobodyknows! Absolutely freakish, stick-out-like-a-sore-thumb attire in my old photos! Vomiting
I guess that's what this is all about, not only changing the way we look, but the way we think about our bodies. You are right-- nothing wrong with a little cleavage and feeling like a sexual being!
Last Edited By: SailAway Sep 16 14 8:23 AM. Edited 1 times.
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KBG wrote:
SailAway wrote:
...Wow, but should a 56-year-old woman wear this dress to a wedding?” No, I will not post a picture!.....
BOO HISSSS!!!! Post a pic, we want to see. Chop your head off if you fear JW repercussions.
Hot number for sure, be hot today, you can always be old tomorrow.
Thanks for all the encouragement to dress young while I feel and look young! I read on another ex-JW forum that at the latest Circuit Assembly they are scolding middle-aged JW women for not dressing their age-- cautioning them not to dress like their daughters and accept their age for now, because they will have forever to be young. nuts
Still no photos, sorry KBG, but I did buy the shoes and handbag to accessorized my dress-- the heels are a mind-boggling 3 and a half inches tall! Mind boggling, because I can actually walk in them (not backwards mind you)! This look is really coming together-- jewelry next! I'm having a blast! It's amazing to me that at my age, I'm actually getting excited about dressing up for a party for the first time in my entire life. Who knew!
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I read that drivel about the GB dictating how a 'mature' woman should dress. Those kinds of things bugged me when I was IN! How dare they! Maybe those hot mature women are getting them a little turned on : @ can't have that!
When I left the first thing's I bought were a black mini skirt and some leather pants for playing out at gigs but so what. They were fun to wear. I remember once scarfing up a pair of jeans on sale that had embroidered firebirds on the legs (still have them). I have been told many times that I look younger than I am so I go with it as you should to. 50 IS the new 30!
I think it's great you are dressing to the nines and having a blast doing it. That is as it should be.
I'm just steaming everytime I think of those mealy mouthed f#*tard reject GB guys making statements like that. Ooh! (Flounces off in a huff)
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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One came to the door today!
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offlineJourney
One came to the door today!
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Oh my word, a JW came to the door today. I wanted to talk to the next one that came to our door, but knew they'd never come to our door again after that elder came to the door a couple of years ago. I think maybe I either wasn't on the DNC list or this lady didn't get the message.
It was funny, she reacted the same way the last time ladies came to the door and Larry told them about us. That was when we lived up the road 20 miles.
Anyway, this morning there was a knock on the door. I'm still in my nightgown and the computer is on my lap, so I called to Larry to answer the door. He went to the door and a woman was standing there and said Hello to Larry, asked how he is, etc. He said, "Who are you?" She told him her name and asked who he is. He told her "Larry." Then he said, "What do you want?" Then she started talking about God. He said, "What religion are you?" (I'm sitting here with my ears perked up as high as they'll go.)
She said, "Jehovah's Witness", then she tried to keep talking. I hollered to Larry, "Tell her we are being shunned by Jehovah's Witnesses." He told her that. Then I hollered "Tell her she can't talk to us. Tell her they aren't nice people to do that." He didn't say those things, but she could hear me.
He said she blinked this odd little blink, turned without a word and walked away. She did not say one more word.
And that right there shows you we are being shunned. Not one more word from her. Simply turning and walking away.
I know what I said wasn't brilliant, but I was curious what she'd do if she heard the word "shunned." If they don't shun people, she should have said so and kept talking. They can deny it all they want, but the truth is, they do shun people.
Anyway, that was our excitement for the day.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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OMG! Bless your heart that hubby helps supports you.
"Fence-rider" is still telling my husband, behind my back, that I should not come to this site for supportsmiley: frown Meantime everyone is helping her and it' isn't coming from the JW church.
Ya' know Journey that we are strong people. We wont' always agree with others say but we have learned that the Borg is full of bullshit and the battle continues. We all do whatever according to our personal circumstances but we also try helping others rather than condemn them to death at Jehovah's hand.
Guess I'm back to saying how I hate that religion...it's very disrupting for finding peace because they don't want peace; while telling others how to find peace.
Take Care, Lin
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Oh, you did well enough Janet. I've had a few encounters with JW's in the past year after years of nothing and I usually end up saying pretty much nothing to them. What can you say? They turn you off completely the moment you say anything that prickles their cognitive dissonance.
Shunning....that was a good one! I guess if I got the chance I might mention the fact I that haven't seen my grandchild or been able to call my daughter in over 3 years just for normal family interaction. Shunning is THE only reason for that. They can take their family destroying religion and shove it where the sun don't shine!
Sorry....got off on a rant there.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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I wasn't able to like your facebook post about that, Janet, because my jw daughters might see it. You did good.
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Thanks you guys. What I said up there was not exact words. But close. Shunning got into it, and that isn't very nice got into it. That was the most I really want to say to them. They are not doing God's work if they are breaking up families and even friendships.
Anyway, I got sort of a shot of adrenalin over it. I think that gave me the internal power to get in the car with Larry and go to the grocery store 20 miles up the road for fruit and veggies. I got up there. I was tired. But then another lady walked up to me as I sat on my mobility scooter and congratulated me. HUH? I'm sitting on a mobility scooter and I'm tired so she congratulates me. I smiled at her and looked quizzical. She said, "Because you are DOING IT." She was so sweet and gave me one of those half hugs and I couldn't hug back because of my scooter. So, now I owe a stranger a hug. :D Anyway, to go from one stranger coming to my door and turning and walking away silently, to a lady in a parking lot zipping over and hugging me. Gosh, what a comparison of compassion vs lack of compassion. I wonder which one Jesus would approve of? <3
Thanks for listening to me.
Love, Moi
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Well, to coin a little expression that's used in my neck of the woods, "the universe" was giving you a definite heads up! Really, the contrast in behavior is often so readily at hand when it comes to 'worldlings' compared to JW's. I really think the Jdubs are becoming even less compssionate and more robotic with each passing month of indoctrination. They've sold their souls to the dark side
listen...obey...and be blessed
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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Bow waveBow waveBow waveBow wave
we are all bowing at your feet Janet! Well done on handling the shunning thing and proving it IS something the average jdub will do. She didn't even have the gumption to ask WHY you were being shunned. My guess is that she automatically jumped to the 'oh my goodness ... they've been DISFELLOWSHIPPED' junction .... and off she went!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Yep. The truth is, my whole family is shunned. Me, Larry and all four kids. But only two of us were baptized. Me and one of our kids. Yep, no questions, no comments, no good-bye, no excuse me I have to leave. Just blinked, turned and walked away silently with me yelling in the background from inside my house how that wasn't very nice.
:D Well, you can all get off your knees now. LOL It was just one of those flash in the pan things that i am glad happened.
I said this on another post somewhere. I am no longer going to say to them that I am an apostate if I encounter them. I don't think I'm anything regarding them. What the heck, I am indeed an ex JW, but that doesn't make a grain of difference in my life. BUT, they are the ones the onus must be on. Not you, not me, none of us here. It's all them. THEY shun. I would never be that rude, and you want to know who else would not have been that rude? Jesus. He ate with the tax collectors for goodness sake! LOL
THEY are SHUNNERS. Bam! That's just what they are to me.
Love, Journey Buttercup Fishbutt :D LOL
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Well young Journey Buttercup Fishbutt ....... all power to you girlfriend!
I will openly use the word apostate if the mood takes me ... given I already know in advance that the average jdub has the WBTS sanctioned definition of the word in mind NOT the dictionary definition. I will also quite happily admit to being worldly ... atheist ........ whatever works.
I was never baptised either however I've had my fair share of shunning over the past 33 odd years ..... you'd think they'd all just get over it wouldn't you! The elder I spoke to about keeping the rest of his scaly mates away from my dad's house ...... was stunned when I said that I didn't have a very high opinion of his religion ......... 'but I don't understand ... what is there that is so bad?' My comment was that there wasn't enough time in the day 'and you will just take whatever I say as being persecution ....' and dragged the subject back to my original reason for calling him!
They DO shun. They are encouraged to shun. They just don't call it that. They can even have a judicial committee (an oxymoron if ever I saw one) set up for those who associate too much with disfellowshipped family members. If that's not another way of using the word 'shun' .... I don't know what is!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Journey Buttercup Fishbutt! Lol! That might stick. Sadly, I remember going to doors as a teen and when I found out the person was DFd I'd go into half robot mode/half shocked mode and depart immediately without saying a word. I was programmed to react that way. Looking back it's so ridiculous. No one ever bothered to say to me what you said. I think it's a good thing. They need to hear over and over again that shunning is an awful practice. Maybe someday it will resonate with her.
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Oh that WILL stick for sure!!!!!
When I told the sneaky man who crept up behind me that I didn't like his religion because they shun their own family members ....... he swung around as he said 'well I'd better be off' and he was gone as quickly as he came! Cowards.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Reintroduction
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offlinemaksutov
Reintroduction
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Hello,
Some of you already know me, as I used to frequent the forum a few years ago (I left the JWs in 2010). I stopped posting here a couple of years ago for various reasons, but have felt the urge to pop in again recently. It seems like there are a few new faces here, which is nice, although the board does seem quieter than it used to be. Maybe that's not such a bad thing either. Anyway, for those who don't know me, my story is buried away on the 'Tell Your Story' board from a few years ago: http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/15535
I'm not sure if I'll be able to post much, but I thought it would be polite to just say hi to old friends and introduce myself to newer members.
Russ.
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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Hey Russ
Nice to have you popping in again.
It is a bit quieter lately. I think many are just busy with life and that's a good thing. After the hoopla of 2014, 100 years of nothing dies down, I'm hoping we get some new ones.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Great to have you back for a visit Russ. How's the family going? Are you keeping out of mischief ..... knowing full well that I won't believe you if you say 'yes I am'!!!!!!
It is a little quieter of late but that's not a bad thing. As Sharon pointed out above ... many are just busy with life and that's fantastic. Hopefully none have gone back to the jdub fold or next to none.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinesolitaire
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Hey Russ smiley: smile
It's so good to see you about the place again!! How's life treating you ? And how's that gorgeous girlie of yours??
Welcome back
Sam x
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Welcome back.
As long as I've been around, I still don't remember people's names...but I do remember you and it's always good when they return to the most wonderful site IMO, on the Internet for we type persons.
I love this site and know it's not always been easy keeping it afloat. LIN
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Thanks ladies.
AndriaSyxx wrote:
How's the family going?
solitaire wrote:
how's that gorgeous girlie of yours??
She's just as gorgeous as ever :) Looking forward to Halloween and Christmas. Ironically she's going to a JW party on 31st! (My MIL arranged it without realising the date) - she thinks it's funny.
solitaire wrote:
How's life treating you ?
AndriaSyxx wrote:
Are you keeping out of mischief
Of course I'm not getting into any mischief (chance would be a fine thing!). I published a book over summer - The Language Lover's Guide to Learning Portuguese (I learned Portuguese as a JW, so at least something good came out of it). I've also got another book on the go - about my reasons for leaving the JWs. More on that later!
Russ.
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Oh bravo on the book Russ! Can't wait to hear more about your 'other' book ... the work in progress.
I'm so glad Rachael is doing so well ..... what a hoot to be asked to a jdub party on Halloween. That will be interesting. It's almost as if the jdubs have organised the party on the same night as Halloween ....... so the kids don't miss out on all the Halloween fun! I'm STILL a stirrer and a cynic!!!!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinepunkofnice
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Hello you old bugger. How are you?
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
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punkofnice wrote:
Hello you old bugger. How are you?
Hi Paul, I'm doing fine, ta. How are things with you and Mandy? Haven't seen much of you on FB lately - did you deregister from there?
Russ.
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Can you believe a JW when they are nice to you?
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status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Being cautious is better than being paranoid. The girls DO have their father's genetic material floating about in there somewhere, so who knows .... maybe in this case the heart HAS been made fonder due to the distance!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineCeili
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Hoo hoo, just a short update...
Well, it seems that they are getting closer again, father and daughters, through his op and recovery. When I was there now again, and he home from hospital, the girls came over every day.
And guess what, the older daughter went dancing with me. Wow wow wow. I loved having her with me, and she is a great dancer.
In the week I was there, neither of us has breeched the subject of JW. I wanted to, many times, but am so afraid of destroying this newfound delicate balance/interest/connection. I am so pleased that for them doors have opened, and for their dad, that he has a closer tie with them. Long may it last and evolve!!!
So that means for now my curiosity must take a back seat!
Sometimes I sense a slight emotional pull-back from the two girls, as if (and this is of course my interpretation) they are scared by their own feelings and courage.
And it's really an honor to see how love and the desire to belong to a complete family system can work it's magic. Fingers crossed!
So, at no point have they tried to get their dad into the JW, or me. If it was a struggle for them to refrain from doing so, then they have hidden it well. Either way, for me there is a bit of an walking on eggshells feeling, because of the attempt not to break anything that is just gently growing. :-)
In all of this, I have come to like them a lot!
Take care everyone,
Happy Halloween smiley: happy
Ceili xx
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Well now Ceili ... it seems the jdub ice is breaking! Hallelujah to that eh!!!
If you feel the need to sate your curiosity and don't want to rock the jdub boat with your friend's daughters ...... then come on in here and we'll help you out. We will be honest and tell you proper answers too. We're nice like that!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineCeili
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Whoop, Andria, thanks a lot! Because I am a bit confused about their behaviour.
They are
playing guitar
went dancing with a non-jw
went with their dad to his sisters, who they haven't seen in years (at the moment he can't drive after the op)
want to travel the world
go to rock concerts
didn't mention jw to me or him
One said she's interested in psychology
and acting
Well, if I didn't know any better, there would be no clue whatsoever that they are jws. After all I read on here, I thought that there would be. All I've seen so far was a jw leaflet when I briefly went into their house.
I'm afraid that if we were to talk jw, I'd see a completely different side to them. My friend told me that they are being taken out knocking doors as well.
And on Sunday mornings and some other day of the week, they go to meetings (is that how they are called)
Once, we talked about sci-fi. I asked them why all the young people are nowadays into vampires and stuff. They said that's not what they are about. At the same time, they read/play sci-fi games, and like spiderman...I said isn't that a contradiction, to which they said, well, we're such a mix, aren't we. Indeed!
Another anecdotal event which my friend told me is that their grandmother (non-jw) used to throw holy water at them. Imagine! One religion is crazier than the next.
When I asked him how come he didn't stand a chance about which religion his daughters would be 'thrown into', he said that fathers have no say in this country, and if the roles had been reversed (his ex non-jw, he himself jw), the daughters now wouldn't be. Meaning either way, the ex-wife would have won.
He said he just couldn't cope with more arguments. So the ex-wife got her way. (Did I mention she's what's called an 'elder'?)
By the way, I get on with her ok too. I don't have that much to do with her when I'm there, but on occasion I meet her. Again, no mention of the jw. She might assume because he is so set against them, that I am too?
Anyway, sorry for the long post! It moves me quite a bit, and so often I feel unsure.
Ceili xx
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Just want to add that I feel a bit the mammy with them sometimes. Want to cuddle them and spoil them and protect them.
Who said that here again about mama bear's club? Yea, like that.
But they might not like me doing mammy stuff. I already worry about x-mas. I'd love to give them a pressie and card, but also want to be respectful of their beliefs, ah, see, I'm all in two minds about that one!
I don't actually respect that religion, but I do respect them, and the last thing I want to do is hurt them.
xxx
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Ceili ... don't feel unsure. Share what you feel like honey ... it's better out than in you know! Just like a fart!
I'm glad that the girls are talking about more 'worldly' pursuits and not just banging on about their religion, getting married or going door banging as a pious-sneer! It could be the much needed baby steps for your friend to have his girls back on a more permanent basis! I truly hope so!
With regards to the Christmas gifts ......... until they are clearly out and about living life as it SHOULD be lived ... instead of giving them a Christmas gift which may make them feel really uncomfortable or send them running back to the religion from the fear of all things 'pagan' related ...................... give them a little 'it's great to get to know you' gift instead. And make sure it's NOT on December 25! You don't have to respect the religion as the religion has never earned that respect ... but I totally understand how you feel about giving them respect. It's all about baby steps honey!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineCeili
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LMAO, Andria - 'like a fart' hahaha
Thanks so much in giving me advice, never had a situation like this before, and don't want to send them running!
At the same time, I crave for a 'normal' relationship, you know, where I didn't have to think about behaving any different re. xmas i.e.
Next time I'm visiting with my friend, it's the younger daughter's birthday. Another 'how do I handle that one'!
He apparently already said to her that we would go out shopping and having coffee somewhere (the older sister is away at that time), and she seems to like the idea. Now, my gut wants to just go and get balloons and a card and cake, but....might not be wise if what you say could happen, that she might run to the 'safety' of what she knows best. Are birthdays considered pagan? *Looks sheepishly around* smiley: laugh
And here's another one: The older sister is away because she's meeting a boy (I guess Jw) in another country. They have communicated so far only by phone, once a week. I think, but am not altogether sure, that they are going to check whether they are compatible for marriage.
Are marriages 'arranged' somehow?
I said to her, you have always choices, this visit doesn't commit you to anything. And that the worst thing that can happen is that they don't like each other and she takes the next flight back home. I hope I have supported her without scaring her off...but she is a quite a sensible girl!
Thanks again for taking the time to talk to me,
take good care,
Ceili xx
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Yes ... birthdays ARE considered pagan. When I was growing up ... the reason why I couldn't celebrate my own birthday or go to the parties of school friends (I was fortunate in having parents who allowed us to make friends with 'worldly' kids) ............. was that the first 'recorded' birthday present ever given, was John the Baptist's head on a plate ... at the bequest of King Herod's daughter. I stopped quoting that reason very early on and learned to say 'my mum and dad are Jehovah's Witnesses so I'm not allowed to come to your birthday party ... sorry'. Kids stopped asking after a while.
With the birthday ... go along with what her father has suggested. You can always get her something and give it to her another day, again similar to the suggestion in my last post ... only this time you can say something like "I saw this and thought of you!" and leave it at that. When she gets to the stage of openly talking about and wanting to celebrate her birthday ... that's when you can go the whole hog with a luscious cake topped with candles ... balloons ... flowers ... you name it!
With the older daughter and her meeting the online fella ....... don't forget that a lot of young ones now are looking for a way out and he may well be too! When I was a teenager .... a lot of the young ones paired up and were married very early on. One wedding I was a bridesmaid for ... there were two bridesmaids, two groomsmen and of course the bride and groom. Only the groom and I were over 18 and could sign the official legal stuff ..... the bride signed her wedding certificate but her parents signatures were already on there. They had to get another 'witness' over 18 to co-sign the official docs with me!!! Marrying young was the one way to get independence (of a kind) from the jdub parents ... and of course to have sex. Your friend's daughter will hopefully take your advice and realise the visit doesn't mean she has to give her life to him! I'm glad she's sensible .... that will keep her head and her heart in the right places!
It's always a pleasure to talk to you Ceili ..... you've been learning heaps since coming in here and will soon be able to hand out advice to others caught in the same position!!!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Can you believe a JW when they are nice to you?
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offlineCeili
Can you believe a JW when they are nice to you?
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Sep 19 14 7:26 AM
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Hi everyone, smiley: smile
I was here before, about 2 years ago, I guess. My friend's daughters are JW, because their JW mother got the better of the argument at the time. He is since divorced from her, but has contact to his daughters. He 'lost' them years ago, and has become angry and never wants to talk about JWs. Understandable.
He now had a big operation, and his daughters visited him a lot. Great! One of them had a long talk with me, and said she knows now how her dad was excluded, how there are '2 sides' to the story...and that she wants more contact with him.
Now, my question: I felt she was being genuine, really misses her dad. I so hope that that is the case. But her dad, when I spoke to him later about it, is very suspicious!
What do you guys make of it? I don't know a lot about the JW, or how they operate, but obviously they are trying to get people to join. Is this what this might be about? That the daughter would hope her dad will finally become a JW (and maybe, me, too)?
Chat soon,
Ceili xx
status offlineJourney
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Who knows? Each person is different. JWs are generally extreme and will use whatever means they have to get someone back in. But she actually may be simply wanting to see her Dad because she loves him.
Journey
status offlineCacky
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Yes, it could be either reason. No way of telling.
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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The comment about now realizing that there are two sides to the story seems significant to me. The question for her would be "are you really ready to listen to the other side and not shut down immediately if things negative about your religion come up?" That religion has broken up so many marriages and families it is just terrible to think about but she's got to be ready to accept that that may have been the case with her parents, too.
Good to have you back Ceili ☺️
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Can you believe a JW when they are nice to you?
I can only speak from my own experience.
Emphatically - No.
The daughter may believe what she is saying now.
Maybe.
But I do know this - all it will take is one word from the powers that be in the GB and all that niceness will disappear.
Count on it.
“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”
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I thought a while back the gb was saying to not associate too much with "worldly" relatives. I wonder if they are changing that. As you said, Bird, if that's the case, then the niceness will end as soon as the gb says to stop it.
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I would tell him to lose the suspicion and be glad that his daughter now wants more contact with him. This is his chance to not only tell his side of the story but to demonstrate to her that his love, unlike that of those within the congregation, is unconditional. Tell him to do whatever it takes to keep her in his life, to be closer to her than before. If she is love bombing him, that's up to her and not much he can do about it. To do anything else, IMO, would be to drive the wedge in a little deeper than it was before.
“The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn but to unlearn.” ~ Gloria Steinem
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Welcome back Ceili ..... I remember the story about your friend and what he went through. He was so sad about losing his daughters.
Whilst it would be nice to think that his daughter IS wanting to sort things out or at least discuss things .... I'm hoping she's doing so for the right reasons and isn't going down that well trodden jdub path of being nice in order to smother him with a truckload of emotional blackmail.
Having added that though ....... David is also right. If your friend can lose his suspicion or at least put it to the side for a little bit ....... he may be more open to what his daughter has to say and they may actually communicate better. If he's openly suspicious .... she may not feel that she's welcome in his life. I hope it works out for him.
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Why not put aside the suspicion for now and proceed as though there is genuine intent on her part to renew the relationship? If her motives are to recruit her dad/both of you, then it should be apparent pretty quickly. No JW "on a mission" can keep their mouth shut for very long......speak no evil Zip it! so you should have a definite answer soon, or maybe a new friend. I hope it works out for the best.
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Oh guys, that you soooo much for all your comments. It's fantastic to not feel alone.
I actually felt I was the witness of a part of a healing process, until I told her dad about it, and his reaction completely threw me off my rocker!
The daughter was in my arms twice, crying. Would she fake even that....I did fully believe her emotions at the time, maybe I am being naïve, but I think that in that is the only chance of a moving forward. In a way, I would prefer if I was even more 'innocent' about the whole thing, that I wouldn't know the situation or anything about JWs. Because I am a little guarded and do fear that I am being used in some way. And obviously, that's how my friend feels. But I have told him exactly that, Yammerhammer, to give a (another) chance.
He said it's too late now, but then yielded some. When the daughters came then to hospital, they had some huggles. I keep my fingers crossed for them! The daughter was in therapy before, because she was suffering from the torn-apartness. Her dad has closed himself off over the years, to limit the hurt. But physically, he was always there for them. Like any dad, fixing the car or helping with gadgets. (But often felt he was only good enough for that and nothing else).
Andria, you remember??? Ah, that's so nice! smiley: happy
Birdwoman, the thought of that is just terrible. I can't get my head (and heart!) around that one at all. In a way, I feel like an auntie to them. I would love to help them, if help is what they are looking for. They know they could talk to me about anything (that is the offer I made). I have little hope that they will, and struggling whether to mention JW or not.
Cangie, yes, I agree. Actually, it feels as if we are all tiptoeing around the 'issue'. Going to some lengths not to mention the JW or anything that could touch on it. It's like as if that could be 'dangerous' to the fragile relationships that are forming...
Whytebird, thanks for the welcome back! And your idea has me thinking...of course I am dying to know how she/they feel being in such a religion. Out of sheer curiosity for one thing, and on the other, to see if she is happy, And if she is truly happy, well, then that's ok too. Then it's only about her relationship with her dad and me.
Take care,
Ceili xx
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Birdwoman, the thought of that is just terrible. I can't get my head (and heart!) around that one at all.
I know.
It took over 40 years for me to 'get' that one too.
Today, I no longer have the need to believe in any sort of illusion - WTS created or not.
Yes.
I am disillusioned.
And damned proud of it.
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Dianne, Personally, I don't think you are disillusioned at all. In my head, I play out what will happen if one of my former "loving" friends, who tell my wife that they still love me, and that is why they shun me, ever dares approach me should we run into each other. In my thoughts about such a situation, I would say to them: "You're too late. You have demonstrated your lack of love long ago, and I have adjusted to that. I want nothing to do with you ever again. Get out of my sight." And then right behind that scenario played out in my head time after time, I think about what a clergyman told me years ago--"If you are going to err, err on the side of mercy and forgiveness."
As observed many times by so many of us, no one wins in a situation where one family member feels inclined to shun another one. If the one doing the shunning has any particle of real love left in their soul, it's guaranteed that they are suffering too. They are feeling psychological dissonance over how they are expected to treat their family member. The Society recently said in their publications that they are to view such ones as having been already put to death by Jehovah. This is a sick and twisted concept thrust upon the masses of the Witness congregation by disillusioned men.
No Dianne, you are not the one disillusioned. They are.
Love to you.
“The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn but to unlearn.” ~ Gloria Steinem
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I know I'm coming to this a bit late Ceili (sorry been away)......
but I just wanted to add my two pennyworth smiley: tongue I totally understand why all of us are so suspicious of the motives of anyone who is a practicing jw.........but I have learned that, so long as you protect yourself by being healthily cynical, it can be good to give the benefit of the doubt.......
After all, everyone can have their eureka moment regarding the treatment of others...both 'worldly' and ex-jw...and I am always hopeful that a persons sentiments are truthful and honest.......
I say 'hopeful', because we all have to protect ourselves from making ourselves too vulnerable..........we know that often the words coming from jw's are the words of the organisation, rather than the individual......but we also know that there are so many various reasons for people to realise the truth about the religion, that there is always a possibility that an individual is on the start of the journey out of the mind control........
So I would say that whilst I totally understand her fathers reticence to open himself up to yet more heartache..........I can only hope for both their sakes that his shoddy treatment at the hands of the religion, may be the catalyst to her starting to actually think for herself....I'm sure that as a loving father he will give her the opportunity to show her true colours..............I hope he is not shot down in flames again!!
Good to see you back
Sam xx
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No Dianne, you are not the one disillusioned.
David, I think we have different views on what 'disillusionment' means.smiley: smile
Please do no take away my disillusion. It is not a negative state.
It is the very best thing that has ever happened to me.
No longer believing in the illusion - those illusions created by the GB and the illusions created by others (friends and family included on this one...) - means true freedom to me.
I no longer have to believe. I no longer need to believe.
I like being disillusioned. A lot.
It means I exist in the here and now.
Disillusionment = freedom = reality = I am alive.
smiley: happy
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OK Dianne, I see where you are coming from... in my mind this morning when I wrote that post, I had it turned around... I was thinking of "delusion" and confused "disillusioned" with "delusion." Sorry about that... sometimes I think my brain has taken a holiday without informing me beforehand. smiley: embarassed
I am disillusioned too. It is the Borg that is delusional... and all those who follow them.
I promise not to take your disillusionment away... I'm not that deluded... it's just that my brain sometimes gets discombobulated.
“The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn but to unlearn.” ~ Gloria Steinem
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I am disillusioned too. It is the Borg that is delusional... and all those who follow them.
I promise not to take your disillusionment away... I'm not that deluded... it's just that my brain sometimes gets discombobulated.
Good. I am happy to hear from a fellow disillusioned person.
It feels good to have your feet planted in reality, doesn't it?
The creation of an illusory environment, such as the Society promotes, is an indication of a sociopathic agenda.
As long as a person continues to buy into the illusion, that person will be destined to be victimized.
Unfortunately, people such as this 'friend's' daughter, are victimized just as much as the 'friend' is.
As far as discombobulation goes...welcome to the human race. smiley: laugh
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
- Frederic Bastiat
status offlineCeili
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Hoo hoo!
Well, I had another email from the daughter, still just friendly, just chatty, and no mention of religion.
I find myself relaxing, and happy to talk to her, I like her a lot, and sometimes have to suppress that feeling of wanting to rescue her!. Much like Whytebird said in her thread about her young music student. Keeping my fingers crossed...and not forgetting what you guys here said, in terms of being cautious and the info about JW not being able to not trying to get you in for long. Is this what is called 'pioneering'?
It feels as if some doors are open...hopefully, this isn't only wishful thinking on my part. smiley: grin
Interesting how you call the organisation 'the Borg'. I loooooove Startrek Voyager. In Voyager, a 'drone' is disconnected from the hive, and much of the storyline is about her regaining, painfully and slowly, her individuality. Do you know the series?
Take care,
Ceili xx
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How are the guitar lessons with the youngest daughter going that your friend had started almost two years ago now?
Did they continue their music together?
It seemed like such an opportunity at the time. They had such a good start to their relationship then andt I hope it has continued.
And did they make stars again together this past Xmas like they did a couple Xmases past?
It really is too bad if none of those activities continued.
But, the good news is that you may have an 'in' for your 'friend' to his daughters. The JWs are using lots of computer technology now - even more than they were during your last visit here. Maybe your friend can continue to fix his daughters' computers.
And also...how has it been going with your friend sharing the house with his daughters and ex? Did he move out since? Or is he still in the same residence with his daughters? Do they still live in the same house? That seems like such a stressful situation - sharing a house with two JW daughters and a JW exwife. Whew...that guy has courage. I gotta hand it to him.
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 Sep 22 14 10:05 AM. Edited 1 times.
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In Voyager, a 'drone' is disconnected from the hive, and much of the storyline is about her regaining, painfully and slowly, her individuality. Do you know the series?
Lol Ceili.....do we know it??? They based the concept on jw's smiley: tongue
And so many of us, as can be seen on this board, are waging much the same war against the brainwashing!!
btw..........I loved Voyager......even without the jw connotations smiley: smile
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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I think it's unlikely the daughters think they can convert their dad. I think it's more likely they are growing up and understand he is not the bad guy their mother said. They might even be Having doubts about the religion, only 37% of JW children choose to stay in the religion, so the odds are in your favor.
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Hahaha, Solitaire, they based the Borg on JW! Very good!
Seven of Nine was always my fav character.
Birdwoman, she (the younger daughter), is still playing, but teaches herself. I don't quite know why her dad didn't continue the teaching for more than one or two lessons...I must find out. But she has one of his guitars, and talked about playing. She said she downloads songs from the internet. Next time I get a chance, I might ask her if she would play some for me.
And yes, he still lives there. It's far from ideal! But at the minute, that is what is.
If they could really see that he is not the bad guy he was made out to be (he says he was always marked 'bad'), he could relax a little, and some of his anger might dissolve.
And the making of the xmas stars...no, they didn't do any last xmas. I think that right now, it's probably as close a relationship as it has ever been with both the daughters and their dad. And other activities might come of it! Did I mention, they went to a concert about half a year ago, where their dad played in a band. They stayed with me, and we danced like mad things. (Dad plays rock music). As I write this now, it seems a quite liberal thing to do for JWs, after all I read on here.
So muchhappiernow, you make me hopeful with your comment. But in a way, I am trying to accept them the way they are now, just as their dad does on one level. They seem to also accept him (and me) the way we are - so far, no trying to bring religion into it.
Take care, everyone,
Ceili xx
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Second Time is a charm?
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offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
Second Time is a charm?
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I tried responding to someone about our precious children but not sure where the post ended up.
Anyhow, we do have a responsibility to our innocents that the church's think they need being baptized at such an early age. I'm totally against such.
And then when we hear the stories of pedophiles it only gets worse.
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I agree.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Good Morning, Cacky.
Fence-rider continues telling me that if I go back to the JW church and tell them how young I was and didn't understand the rules of the church...I can be reinstated. I've told her it no longer matters because I don't like her church after so many years of research and know they don't hold the Truth.
And so life is interesting, eh.
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That was a good answer.
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You've been post-napped eh Lin! It happened to me the other day .... nice long post and whooooop ... gone in a second!
I am also heartily and quite openly vocal about baptising young children ... regardless of what religion. Which is odd given I'm a Godmother to one of my friend's (now adult) kids! But there you go ... I was feeling rebellious at the time and hadn't quite hit the 'I'm an atheist' button back then! Children shouldn't be indoctrinated ... plain and simple. Mine aren't. Sure ... tell kids that religion is out there and do the old 'some people want or need religion ... some people don't want it or need it ... and the rest have yet to make up their minds' trick ..... but to make them follow their parents religion ... nup. Not on.
Your poor sister really has been bitten by 'the truth' bug hasn't she Lin! You had a great answer .... there's no disputing where your feelings lay!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Good Morningsmiley: smokin.
Thanks for the affirmation that I handled that conversation in a mature manner - because I'm not always nicesmiley: indifferent
The other evening when the three of us were having a nice meal and conversation came up over [non-religion], fence-rider just wants to argue with what someone else says if she disagrees. Believe,me, she is a shit-stirrer and yet thinks she does it out of love, right!
I simply stood up and told her I was no longer a part of this conversation and she instantly slammed me with, "Your angry." Well, I wasn't until she wanted to tell me how I was feeling. Control!
I told her I was not angry and to stop putting words into other peoples mouth and stop trying to analyze every word someone sayssmiley: mad.
I'm just not playing by her rules...and hopefully she is learning that.
I appreciate that she is my oldest sibling that was always there for the rest of us. Because we are all adults now, make our own decisions, her input is not always necessary because she is no longer the caretaker.
And, we accept personal responsibility for our actions.
I also understand it's not easy for when one begins questioning the Borg- even at an older age, so I'm learning some patience with personal boundaries.
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It's downright scary to be in the autumn years of your life and questions about your religious faith start surfacing Lin! It's bad at any age but I think if someone has been in for so long ... like your sister ... it must be that tug-of-war feeling of knowing things aren't quite right and yet having that well indoctrinated feeling of guilt and fear slowly but surely surfacing!
You just keep your cool ... remind your sister you're no longer 12 and have the right to live life the way YOU see fit AND that you also have to right to agree to disagree .... and perhaps your sister will realise that her over the top comments are not upsetting you at all! She must be very scared of so many things. I know my mum and dad were always too scared to live and too scared to die. Mind you ... I have to say that since my mum's death a couple of weeks back ..... it's like my dad has come alive in so many ways! He believes the religion is 'the truth' ..... but he is so very very angry with the way 'the brothers' (mainly the local elders) have interpreted and re-interpreted biblical references to the point they no longer resemble biblical references! At the moment ... he wants nothing to do with any of them ....... and two of my siblings and I couldn't be happier!
Stay calm Lin .... you're doing an amazing job!!!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Missy Rhonda, Good Morningsmiley: wink
I'm glad hearing that your dad is questioning things re: that filthy religion. While on the one hand it perhaps helped but because of how that religion works; it has done so much damage to those with a loving heart that continue believing they are the only one with the "Truth".
I'm still working through some stuff with fence-rider because she started in on me again yesterday with her judgment towards me over some stupid word. When things settled down, I asked her how she can profess representing the "True Religion" when she is full of hate and doesn't understand the [Christ Principle] of Forgiveness?
After years of research into that religion...and I totally don't believe in organized religion...fence-rider doesn't want to hear what I've learned because she is all knowing about scripturesmiley: laugh and yet she feels fit [spiritually] for telling others how to live their life?
We discussed resentment, anger, forgiveness. Although we're not all "Christian", where do those that profess being such show an example of how to practice such according to our culture of, "In God We Trust."?
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Not wanting to lose a post and waiting for sister to wake up and make the drive back to AZ...I'm just starting oversmiley: happy
What I'm learning: It's a struggle for all of us. At the same time I'm not going to be visiting that much with fence-rider when she returns back to Colorado and has her own home.
I'm also learning that with her age and health, I had promised to help look out after her. It's good she will be living across the street and we've done all we can for helping her get there.
Apparently it's now time for her Jehovah to start helping because that's what she believes...does she forget that it was an effort for others to help and yet it's all because of Jehovah?
I know how to play that game...I don't want doing such but did remind her that "All your prayers have been answered." and so what's the problem now?
Thank ya'll for being here for me! It's not been an easy week with a niece dying and we lost our one cat...LIN.
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Your poor sister. I know my mum went through a stage of saying that Jehovah would help. She also believed that Jehovah's people would help. They didn't. She never really admitted that she felt let down by them ... but I know my dad feels dreadfully let down.
Sorry for your double loss there too Lin. Your niece and one of your furry friends too .... what a week for you! ((( hugs )))
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Pure indoctrination ... it's NOT cute at all!
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status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Found it Dianne!
image
He is an incredibly cute and very young little man. His mother doesn't say how old her boy is. If the boy's parents whinge about this being in here ... they only have themselves to blame. It's on bookface in the 'Stay Awake, Stand Firm, Grow Mighty' community page. All images posted have the name of the group and then the poster adds their name afterward. As at today's date ... 2971 people ticked the 'like box ... with 235 'shares'. Obviously they don't look at this the same way I do.
This little man's mother added this comment to the photo .....
This recent picture you posted of Grayden from Ohio in 2014 and my father-in-law in 1941 at the age of 2. Notice he has the same bag, 5 cents per copy. My father-in-law lost his battle with melanoma on May 8 of this year but he was a faithful elder at the time of his death, witnessing until the very end. (Candy)
Some of the comments ....... feel free to pop in there for a look .....
Paul D Noble
If you think about it, these photos actually represent 4 generation of witnesses, At two years old your father in law must have had parents in the truth. You and the young boy represent two more generations. What a wonderful thing.
So NOT a 'wonderful thing' to indoctrinate four generations of people! The little ones in the two images were never given the option of whether they wanted to have their cuteness used to suck everyday folk into a religion that is incredibly damaging and life altering. Not a wonderful thing at all Mr Noble! But of course anyone saying anything negative would have their comment deleted and the rest would claim persecution rights!
I'm sure the next poster was being genuine ... but really?
Brandon Benjamin
He would love this photo when he sees it in the new system
There are heaps more ... all gushing, oohing and ahhing over the cute little boy and the faithful elder who died ....................... this one is typical of the mentality they've all been indoctrinated and inculcated to have ...
Arlene Phelps
This what can happen to all children who have stayed faithful to Jehovah & his purpose for mankind. Also, kept preaching the good news of the kingdom. I've been among those of the great crowd since 1949. Living so close to the New World is very exciting to me and all those represent Jehovah at this time of the end. Agape' to all of my Witness Family
Poor woman. I feel sad for her. She's been 'among those of the great crowd since 1949'. Doesn't say how old she is ... but that was 65 years ago. Not two or three. And her 'living so close to the New World is very exciting to me ...' is doubly sad. She obviously hasn't understood the definition of 'living so close'. When I say that I'm 'living so close' to my neighbours ... it's means they are right next door ..... not 65 kilometres away!
It's NOTE cute. The little boy is being used as a marketing ploy and no-one in that lovely little online community will see that. Instead they would read my post ...... and believe the end of the world is even closer, because my words would be taken as persecution. A sign of the end. *deep sigh*
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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But they thought 'the end' was so close in the 1940's...1950's...1960's....surely the 1970's...80's, 90's, after 911, 2010, 2012....
How do they not see what they write!!! Talk about cognitive dissonance!!!
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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That actually is a cute photo, Andria - if a person didn't know the history of it. That little boy's grandfather would have been one of the "Children of the King" that had been promised so much and got nothing.
Some more photos of child workers recruited by the Society:
9ed365f81a5eb5230e1455993e95a74f9bdaea04
dc916712b8075e39a48dcd43878deebfd7759822
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
- Frederic Bastiat
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 2 days ago. Edited 1 times.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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I agree that it's a cute photo too Dianne ... for the people who don't know that insidious side of the WBTS. You can see by the two images you added ... why parents would fall for the jdub religious hype ..... it has that 'whole family' vibe about it, which would be attractive to those wanting what's best for their kids. I've never been one for using kids to promote anything ... be it religion or save the whales. I put that down to never having a choice about my own indoctrination. I don't hate my parents for that however I do blame 'the society' as they like to call themselves.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Pure indoctrination ... it's NOT cute at all!
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offlineAndriaSyxx
Pure indoctrination ... it's NOT cute at all!
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Oct 18 14 6:26 PM
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Despite comments of bleating about how wonderful it is to see young ones 'doing Jehovah's great work' or banging on about 'the new campaign' (aka the jw . org thing ..... I've spaced this out as in bookface and some other internet things, the WBTS has arranged for instant links to their fantastical new 'campaign' website to appear! blech) ....................... seeing a document like the one below, and kids being roped into signing it with the aid of the lovely CO (American) ............ makes me both cross and sick.
The little girls range in age from 4 to 7. They are already well trained ... as you can see by their bright little smiles. But read the wording on the 'resolution' ....... then imagine how disappointed the three little ones would feel if they didn't meet their target ... and how pressured they would be by their parents to make sure the targets are met so the parents themselves aren't chatted to by the elders.
It's pure indoctrination ... it's NOT cute at all. The little ones do not have an 'understanding' of 'sacrifices' they have to make. They are little girls. They should be watching Frozen ... dressing in fairy dresses ... and being little girls. Just as little boys should be little boys. This type of document is now an even earlier step in making sure the young ones do the right thing .... added guilt and pressure on top of course. Then they will be railroaded subtly into baptism. I feel sad for jdub kids ... because like many of you ... we've been here before.
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"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
Last Edited By: AndriaSyxx Oct 18 14 6:29 PM. Edited 1 time.
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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Those poor little kids...my poor grandson. Makes me think of this
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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Andria, it is a deliberate campaign by the Watchtower to target children at this time.
One of the criticisms of the religion that has emerged from the recent spike in child abuse cases within its ranks is that it is not 'kid friendly'. This is why you see the concentration on children's activities and such. This way, when the public (and legal teams) view the website and see all the stuff directed towards children, the Society can make the claim that the religion focuses on children's well being.
Of course, 'well being' is a loose phrase that can have a pretty broad interpretation, considering that this new makeover is coming from a religion that blatantly uses children as sacrifices to their blood god.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
- Frederic Bastiat
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 Oct 18 14 8:01 PM. Edited 1 times.
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Andria, I know that this is a subject that is near and dear to your heart, because you have often expressed your deep bond with your children.
So, I have done some research to back up why I believe that this recent shift of attention to the children is actually an carefully orchestrated move that will be being played out in the courts on an related issue - that of child abuse. (I will post some links and such later...)
I think that the Watchtower Society will be using the child abuse court cases to challenge the law in some way - they have a history of doing so. They are like the illusionist - waving one hand with a flower in it while pulling out a rabbit from their back.
The Watchtower Society used children back in the late 30s and during the 40s - the years building up to America's participation in the Second World War - to challenge the American Constitution on the issue of freedom of speech. What was established in the Supreme Court in 1943, was, not the freedom of religion, like the flag salute issue appeared to do to the Jehovah's witnesses involved - it was won on an the issue of the right to free speech. Which has ramifications for everybody even today - prop 8 in California was struck down by citing the Barnett case of 1943.
And what is the most ironic thing of all - what the Watchtower fought for and won - the right of free speech - is based on principles that they deny to those who believe in them.
They used the children in 1941 (and many of the adult Jehovah's witnesses as well - they were deliberately set into hostile territories to preach in order to instigate court cases in addition to the 2000 children expelled from school for not saluting the flag) to change the law and it would not surprise me if they are setting up the same scenario now. They have sacrificed children in the past and they will not hesitate to do so now.
And by the way, the children of 1941 who made an oath to serve Jehovah, and many were baptized as young as 6 years old, were asked to pledge 6 hours a day in service to spread the new book "Children". The convention report from that year from Britain reports proudly of many children who had large hours of service - one 12 year old boy from Glasgow spent 150 hours in service in the month of August that year.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
- Frederic Bastiat
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 6 days ago. Edited 2 times.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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I'm never for seeing our children baptized because some religion tells them should do so.
It's not cute at all but that' how religion will spin their story for finding salvationsmiley: mad and preach their bullshit; while we continue the struggle for helping make sure there are no more victims as concerns the JWBTS.
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This practice isn't cute. It has an undertone of manipulation. However, when I look at that picture. The children indeed are cute. They are adorable. But what is about to happen to them, isn't cute at all. There are times when kids have to make sacrifices, that's part of life. But to be manipulated into it, then shamed if they don't reach the elders' goals is ugly as sin. The picture is cute. Then aftermath may not be pretty at all. Worries me. I am so glad my grandchildren are not growing up in that org.
J
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I left for my children. I didn't want them to be like me, so desperate for parental approval that they had to go thru all that crap. Because that's why I did it for so long,hoping for my parents' approval. Now they are really pushing the kids. I'm glad mine won't have to go thru that!
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Oh and make me barf!!!
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Yes.
Children are certainly the hotspot for many people. It is highly emotionally charged space that, unfortunately, becomes the site of many power struggles. And, as I said earlier, the Watchtower Society certainly is not above using the child as a disposable tool in their bid for power and control - and I am not referring to just the power and control of its members - I mean it in a larger political sense.
On another thread that Punkie started concerning the 1914 date, I had made the claim that 1941 had far more significance than 1914 as far as what is happening currently in the Society and Sharon had made this comment - I am moving it here because it is relevant to what I am going to post later:
I was curious about the ages of the current GB and how many of them might have been around during the Rutherford era and especially the release of the 'Children' book. I believe my dad was one of those and he was a staunch supporter of Rutherford and would hear no criticism of the man......it was weird to me that he would be that way....did Rutherford hypnotize all those kids?! I listened to a few talks on those vinyl records of Rutherford speaking and as a 1970's era JW I thought the guy sounded like a hellfire and damnation preacher without the hellfire.....I found his speech unsettling. He just sounded like an angry man.
As for the current GB, the only one maybe around for that book release would have been Sam Herd (1935). He was born just a few years later than my dad. Three members were born in the '40's, David Splane (1944), Stephen Lett (1949) and Gerrit Losch (1941). Then of course there are the youngin's Mark Sanderson (born 1965) and Geofrey Jackson (1955).
It just is weird as I said, how people like my father were and how todays witlesses seem to be under hypnotic suggestion.
Some of you may not be familiar with the significance of the date of 1941. I know I wasn't aware of much of what happened within the Jehovah's Witnesses during that year until recently when I started examining it more closely. I think I became curious about 1941 simply because the book "Children" was released that year and, there seemed to be quite a bit of Watchtower published reports for that year.
The report for St. Louis Assembly that was held in August of 1941 can be found and downloaded at this link here: https://archive.org/details/1941ReportOfConventionOfJehovahsWitnesses
I will be posting several quotes from that assembly report.
Also, to add background and context, I researched the history of the Watchtower's involvement in the flag salute issue that was going on in the American court system at the same time that the "Children" assemblies were happening. There are many places a person can go on the internet to find out the basics of the flag salute cases.
I also read this article here, which analyzes the planning of the Watchtower's legal department during those same years on other issues besides the flag salute:
The Jehovah's Witnesses and their plan to expand first amendment
freedoms. Journal of Church and State - September 22, 2004
Jennifer Jacobs Henderson
And, another article that is critical to understanding what actually occurred with the flag salute cases of the Watchtower Society and the legal precedent that it set, and why,:
The Story of West Virginia State Board Education vs Barnett: The Pledge of Allegiance and the Freedom of Thought
That is a lot of reading, but, it is complicated. The JW doctrine and the subsequent 'rules' laid down by the Society at the time was heavily influenced by what was happening in the court system and I will attempt to tie this all together for you as best I can.
First - I will talk about the assembly report.
I shall return with a look at the children of 1941 and how they, too, were indoctrinated for the purposes of the Theocratic Government. And, like Sharon pointed out - the children who attended those conventions and received a "Children" book, are now in their 70s and 80s and some of those who have power in the Society today undoubtedly were at the St. Louis assembly or at least read the "Children" book.
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The Jehovah's Witness Assembly, held at St. Louis, Missouri, from August 6-10 1941, drew a peak crowd of 115,000 people. Of those that attended, 15,000 children were registered. The main talk was titled "Children", and to get to be of the chosen children who would sit in the middle of the arena for Rutherford's address, and receive an signed free copy of "Children", a child had to 'have a ticket'. A ticket was obtained upon registration of the child.
The assembly report describes this process:
There are many thousands of children that have had the privilege of coming to this convention, and parents are lined up by the thousands registering themselves and their children - something that has never occurred in history since the convention called by King Hezekiah in days of old, and recorded for our comfort.
Prior to the St. Louis gathering, letters went from Jehovah's organization calling the people, old and young and children, and as in days of old, 'even to the registering of all the little ones...their sons and daughters' - 2 Chronicles 31:14-18.
Note how the bible is used as the justification for the process of record keeping and documentation of the children.
There have been thousands of children at other Watchtower assemblies, but never before were 15,000, who had been previously registered, seated entirely by themselves in the main portion of one of the world's greateset auditoriums. Never before were more than 1,300 children immersed at one time.
The age to register the children was all those between 5 to 18. I don't know if any 5 year olds were baptized but there are reports of 6 year olds being immersed. My own mother had been baptized in 1939 at the age of 6. She has said that there was a big push for children to be baptized because they believed that WW2 was Armageddon and recounts how "men from the Society" traveled around to rural Canada to perform these baptisms.
The assembly report has photos of children being baptized. And one photo of 'our colored brethren' at a separate 'colored pool' where they had to go "because of reasons beyond the Society's control".
The Children of the King who were at the St. Louis assembly were 'cute' too. Just like the little girls Andria posted. The assembly report likens the arena's floor, where the children were all seated, to a flower bed. The report goes on to talk some about the Judge's lecture - I will post my comments on his talk later - and then, after describing how the children all filed up on stage to receive a book from the man himself, it says this:
But now the man has gone, and you still look on - and are surprised to note that the 15,000 children are on the blond side - brown hair, yellow hair, light brown heads - only a few really black ones, and you don't quite understand why this is so, but it is. And you come away feeling refreshed as though you had seen something exceedingly rare in this evil day - something clean and honest and pure; something unforgettable - a promise of that sweetness and harmony which will be in God's kingdom.
...more to come...
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 6 days ago. Edited 1 times.
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I tried responding to someone about our precious children but not sure where the post ended up.
Anyhow, we do have a responsibility to our innocents that the church's think they need being baptized at such an early age. I'm totally against such.
And then when we hear the stories of pedophiles it only gets worse.
I pasted your reply here, Linda. I agree that child/infant baptism is a coercive maneuver on the part of, not only the churches, but also the parents.
The pressure on the child is almost always passed down from the parents, and the parents of 1941 were as much for the baptizing as were the children - the Watchtower Society indoctrinated the entire family unit, disrupted it and used it for their own purposes. They did it back in 1941 and it continues even yet today.
The pressure in 1941 was turned up full force and the main talk that closed the assembly "Children of The King", was delivered by the Society's mouthpiece, Judge Rutherford. Prior to distributing the free book Children to the 15,000 children seated on the floor, Rutherford asked for the ultimate commitment - a public pledge of their loyalty and obedience to the Theocratic Government that had been outlined and expounded upon in the entire assembly program up to that point.
After concluding his talk he said to the children: All of you who have agreed to do the will of God and have taken your stand on the side of The Theocracy, and have agreed to obey God and His King, stand up! It was a heart-thrilling sight to see 15,000 children rise up as one man before Jehovah; and what applause filled the Arena! Their big brother on the platform shouted: "Behold, more than 15,000 witnesses to the King!" (Long applause) Again he said: "All of you that will do what you agreed to do say Aye!" Then came a thunder of "Aye" from 15,000 children on their feet (and more applause).
Big Brother, indeed. The report also has this description of the children's pledge at the assembly in Leicester, England September 3-7 1941:
Then he asked all the children to stand up while he put some questions to them. Every one of the two thousand children stood, and accordingly pledged their unwavering allegiance to The Theocracy and to have a desire to share in its service, putting in six hours a day in the work. It brought tears of joy to the parents and others who witnessed this great event.
Obviously, whatever was said at those conventions, was very effective in instilling a very high degree of allegiance in whoever attended those events and, the children were especially affected by the patriotic fervor that Rutherford's talk had instilled in them for the Theocratic Government that was being promised them.
At the very same time that the JW children were pledging allegiance to the Watchtower Society's Theocratic Government, the United States had not yet formally adopted their own Pledge of Allegiance. In spite of the JW children being admonished not stand and salute the flag or give allegiance to their country, the Watchtower Society devised their own. And put it into use before the US officially put theirs in place, even though it had been in use since 1892. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance
The United States Congress officially recognized the Pledge for the first time, in the following form, on June 22, 1942:
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
...more to come....
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 6 days ago. Edited 1 times.
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I think they are targeting children because so many leave when they grow up so they are trying to do things to keep them brainwashed and hold them in. But also Birdwoman's theory makes sense as well.
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So, in 1941, 15,000 registered children at St. Louis and 2000 registered children in England, stood as a group and gave a pledge of allegiance to the Theocratic Government.
What had the children been told that would have brought on such a commitment from children?
This is the link to an audio recording of Judge Rutherford's talk "Children of the King".
https://archive.org/details/ChildrenOfTheKingByJudgeRutherford
The audio is a bit scratchy and fuzzy in places and it ends with a promo for the book Children. The recording was likely taken from one of the phonograph records used in the promotion of the Watchtower Society's Theocratic Government. I found it best to download the zip version of the recording rather than listen to it directly online.
The assembly report for the England assembly describes the talk in this way:
Judge Rutherford's voice, full of kindness and encouragement, came forward as clear as ever. His words were eagerly followed by all. He told how The Theocracy was a paternalistic government which would administer righteousness to all those under it; how it is that the princes will soon return to properly advise and teach the children; that the children should put their full trust in these princes. He also showed the duty of the parents to teach their children, and what duties the children have before the the Lord. He gave a brief description of what conditions will be like in the earth under the full reign of The Theocracy; how there will be beautiful estates and dwelling places for the children of the King; that they and the animals living together in peace will praise Jehovah's name.
I listened to the talk and made a few notes - I missed writing down several points because Rutherford's speech was quite rapid and not as loud as usual. Contrary to most of the talks I have heard from Rutherford, in this talk his voice is fairly quiet - he seemed to key down his voice when talking to the children.
Some points from the talk (I had a hard time taking notes - I think this is the very first talk that I have listened to since the summer of '71. I hope you appreciate that, Andria!smiley: smile) Seriously, I used to get physically ill whenever I heard snips of talks from the Society - this one, because I listened to it with a complete disconnection from the concept of god or anything 'religious', I managed it without psychosomatic reaction - only disgust that a political organization can cloak itself under the veil of religion...and get away with it.
The talk was heavy on parental obligation, even though the talk was directed to the children. The children, though, were treated as though they were the special ones - the ones chosen to put the new Kingdom in place, the ones 'selected' to be the children of the King.
Near the beginning of the talk, the children are told about Adam - they are told that Adam was killed by God because of disobedience. Adam was selfish. And then Rutherford slipped in a little comment that I almost missed because he pauses after the first part of the sentence, and then drops his voice and says, speaking of Adam's death punishment and selfishness (around the 8:40 mark... ) :
...he was selfish, and that unfailing rule...that applies to all who follow us in the courts.
He emphasizes that Christ Jesus the King "is present" and has been present since 1914. The paternalistic nature of the Society's Government is stressed - each time Rutherford says "paternalistic", he emphasizes the word. And when Rutherford speaks of the ransom sacrifice, it follows one of the many references to obedience. Just like God killed Adam, he also killed/ransomed his other son too. Full obedience to the Law of Jehovah is stressed - obedience is the theme of the talk.
The children are told that "if you hope to live you will willingly give yourself to Jehovah". The parents are told to "constantly keep the name of Jehovah before the children" and to "show love by instilling the children with thoughts of Theocratic government". And "teach" and "in this, Do Not Fail - keep constantly before them the Kingdom". (this is a key point as it relates to the legal issues I will discuss later)
The children are told to "obey your parents in the Lord". This is emphasized - in the Lord - because then Rutherford asks what about "if your parents aren't 'in the Lord'?" and this is what he tells them 'then...get someone else!" here he pauses a little bit and completes his sentence in a quieter voice, while the applause mounts: "...to instruct you in the Lord."
The children are told that they have a "bounden duty" to carry the message and "you will do so willingly" because..."it is a privilege" and they will be given "safety and life" in the Theocracy.
It is in this talk that Rutherford tells the children that "marriage is a mockery" and that marriage will be "sacred under God in the New World" and that a woman/wife is "a bag of bones and a hank of hair". That last comment, by the way, was followed with thunderous applause from the 115,000 who were listening.
Rutherford speaks of the separation of goats and sheep and makes a comment about "billy goats" smelling. This is a direct reference to one of his quotes he made earlier in a another talk when he was speaking of the necessity of attacking the Catholic Church - which was another running theme of the Assembly that accused the Catholics of being a 'fifth column'. He had made this comment in a previous talk at the assembly that seems to tie the Jews and the Catholic priests together:
The attack we have got to make is just what Jesus did. You know that when Jesus was on earth the religionists wore long robes. They didn't have much of lace curtains at that time; they wore phylacteries, greased their head with goat grease, and smelled a good deal like billies. And, no doubt, that is where Jesus got the thought that it was a 'goat' class. He meant the Jews of that class of billy-goats with long whiskers, and long faces that smelled to the top of the mountain.
He had made the reference to the 'goat class' when he was speaking to the children because he was telling them about the 'selection process' that was going to occur once the Theocratic Government was established. The children were told that they wouldn't marry until "the Lord will select for marriage". In the "new world", the children would have mates "selected" for them that were suitable for them. And Rutherford said that this selection process was going to be done by the helper class - the Jonajabs. They were the ones who were going to do the selection process and they would decide who would marry whom in the Theocratic Kingdom that would be governed by the Watchtower Society. And then, those children would have the perfect children who "would fill the earth". (find this on the audio recording about 33:33) And, they would be joined by "Barak and Deborah" - the judge reveals that Deborah is "a real woman". (For anyone interested in this, check out jehovahswintesses.net background for the identity of Barak and Deborah - the information is in a thread about Bonnie Boyd, I believe.)
Jonajabs. Who were/are they? Nobody seems to really know but we get clues at times. The Jonajab class pops up every once in a while attached to the Society - every once in a while you hear a bleat from New York that alludes to some 'invisible' and unnamed group that somehow, helps out the Jehovah's witnesses.
*edited to add: the JW doctrine at the time was that the Jonadab class were those Jehovah's witnesses that 'helped' the annointed ones. This Jonadab class was the 'great crowd'. I think. It is hard to keep the classes and biblical names of things straight - the wonderful maze of biblical doctrine and wacky interpretations...
Watchtower 1952 February 1 pp.95-6 Questions from Readers
• A folder advertising the supposed health aids of The Jonadab Wise School of Health was distributed to Jehovah's witnesses attending the recent assembly in Washington, D.C., and among other things said: "This unusual authentic service is prepared and offered to you by Jehovah's Witnesses." Does the Watchtower Society endorse this?—W. H., California.
The Society emphatically denied any connection to the Jonabad Wise School of health, but, of course they would - the Jonabad class is 'separate'...they are just 'helpers'. Their answer to that question from readers can be found here.
But back to the indoctrination at the assembly.
I will return with some observations about what the children had been exposed to prior to the Sunday talk at which they pledged their allegiance to the Watchtower Society. (yes...the pledge was to the Society...the Society was the organization that "represented Christ the King and would be "in charge of his earthly possessions" - saying the pledge was to 'jehovah' is only a deflection as to what the pledge really meant).
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status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Get's more sickening the more I read but guess that's the way of reminding myself why I hate, yes hate, that religionsmiley: mad and if they were to ever encounter my grandchildren the battle will be on!
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Yes, Linda, it is sickening.
When you look from the outside in, the appearance is certainly different than from the other direction. This is why outside appearance - the clothes, the decorum and all of that - is so vital for the Society. They are acutely aware that a good appearance is necessary to keep anyone from looking any deeper. The same as the doctrines - the doctrines are held out there for everybody to spend their time on and everybody gets all twisted up trying to follow the doctrinal stance when the real 'shit' is happening behind the scenes - behind the Society's closed doors. If there is a change in doctrine...there will be something the Society is doing or trying to hide that has nothing at all to do with biblical doctrine. The doctrine is simply political strategizing.
So - back to the 1941 assemblies.
St. Louis was a five day assembly and it opened Thursday afternoon. According to the assembly report, "...on the first day alone, 7000 children had been registered."
And, according to a St. Louis newspaper, the afternoon session was well attended. "...an hour long address...formally opening the five day assembly"
https://archive.org/details/WatchtowerNewsScrapBook
The crowd, hot but patient, jammed the main building, filling every one of its 12,700 fixed seats and 5300 more chairs set up on the floor.
Rutherford, tall and bald, spoke from manuscript rapidly and with little expression. Listeners at times followed him with difficulty when the thread of his sentences became tangled in mazes of Biblical quotations. Several thousand persons left the auditorium before he had finished.
Oh. Well that was a poor start to the big Children of the King assembly. it didn't start as well as it ended I guess.
The evening session was worse.
7:30 Zone and Regional Servants' Duties F.W. Franz
From the newspaper:
Inside the arena main assembly hall, F. W. Franz of New York, talked on zone and regional servants' duties, followed by a doctrinal discourse by J. C. Booth, also of New York. Not more than 1500 persons comprised their visible audience. The balconies were deserted.
Well, I can't say I blame the people for not wanting to attend that session. I wouldn't have wanted to either - dry detailed instructions on how to organize the Society's followers into zones and regions. Bleh...take me to the lions, please. But, that is quite the drop in attendance - 19,000 down to 1500 for Freddie's talk.
But I don't think much has changed - the rank and file are not interested in the 'organization' of their religion - they want the good stuff - the rhetoric that comes from the bible. They want 'ideas', not the 'real facts'. 'Ideas' (ideological thinking) keep them inside their head where they can be comfortable with fantasy.
Another thing that happened during this assembly was the public shaming and demonizing of Olin Moyle.
https://archive.org/details/1941WatchtowerConventionCondemnsOlinR.Moyle
Olin Moyle, the Watchtower Society's former head legal counsel, was named as the "evil servant' in a resolution that was 'unanimously' adopted by those who attended.
And that brings me to where I was trying to get with the Children of the King assembly.
To the legal side of this discussion and how the flag salute issue was really what was behind the recruitment of all those children in 1941.
...will return...more to come...
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Wow! All those 'children' you'd think would have felt let down after the decades started passing and no kingdom, no princes and no lions, tigers and bears to pet. Most, like my dad did marry but still clung to the 'hope' I guess it was. My father also made many mistakes along the way being unfaithful to my mother, divorcing her and marrying again without 'scriptural grounds' and yet he STILL clung to the religion. My aunt, during a discussion had when I was still a teenager, mentioned how strong the feeling was back in the 1940's that armegeddon was so very near...but she stuck with it shunning her only daughter who was disfellowshipped as a teenager. My aunt was always super hardnosed in her obedience to the religion. All my JW aunts shunned ther own father terribly because he was considered an apostate. What he really was was an old follower of Russell who didn't accept Rutherford.
Interesting stuff, the JW nitty gritty history. Thanks Diane for all your work and ESPECIALLY for listening to an old Rutherford talk. Accepting that you did it purely for research purpose, still....it had to have been truly puke worthy!
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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Yes, Sharon, the pre-war propaganda devised by the Watchtower Society was heavy. The loyalty to the Society was established through indoctrination at the highest level. My own mother, even after being disfellowshipped for years, would defend 'The Society' at all costs. She even laid my son on the blood altar - he was born before I could legally make his medical choices and my own mother, disfellowshipped for years at the time, signed the no blood document that brought the shiny black shoes and white shirts to the hospital before I could blink.
Yes, the loyalty to the Watchtower Society was heavily instilled prior to and during WW2.
The Rutherford talk actually surprised me somewhat. I was able to listen to the whole thing - even a few passages several times. Maybe it was because, like I had said earlier - I was able to listen without the religious rhetoric weighing me down. What makes it easy to listen to is just substitute "Ralph" or "Mike" in the places Rutherford says Jesus or Jehovah. Or simply understand that those terms of authority actually are referring to the Society themselves - whoever they are.
I know I missed some key details in my notes but I don't think it matters - we are all familiar with the template - obey us, do what we say and you will live forever. If you disobey, you will be killed. You won't just die - you will be killed.
However, I was surprised at the Judge's lowered tone in the talk but that is understandable considering he was talking to children and I am sure his health wasn't good at the time. The talk was given in August 1941 and he died in January 1942, just months later.
About Olin Moyle.
I would guess that most new converts and ex-converts don't know who he is.
This is a package from archive.org that has the trial that occurred when he brought libel charges against the Society, and background information on Olin Moyle. A quick google search will turn up who he was.
https://archive.org/details/OlinR.MoyleTrial
Jennifer Jacobs Henderson, in her essay "Jehovah's Witnesses and their plan to expand first amendment freedoms", introduces us to Olin Moyle early in her essay. (link is in earlier post)
Judge Joseph Franklin Rutherford, president of the Watchtower Bible
and Tract Society from 1917-1942, originally formed a national legal team (6) in 1935 to protect those
spreading the "Word of God." In that year, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society hired Olin Movie
as the Jehovah's Witness head legal counsel to replace Rutherford upon his ascendancy to
president. Moyle, under Rutherford's close watch, created the first centralized clearinghouse for
Jehovah's Witness legal actions and began to draw up plans and instructions for a widespread legal
assault.
Moyle's tenure was short-lived, however, following his accusations that Judge Rutherford engaged in
"unkind treatment of the staff, outbursts of anger, discrimination and vulgar language." (7) Only four
years into his legal career with the Watchtower, Moyle was replaced by a young Texas lawyer,
Hayden Covington.
Henderson begins her essay with the hypothesis that, contrary to the notion that the Jehovah's Witnesses' court cases were 'accidental', that instead, the legal battles that they faced were actually planned and orchestrated by the Society (highlighting mine):
In 1942, University of Pennsylvania law professors John E. Mulder and Marvin Comisky concluded
that "seldom, if ever, in the past, has one individual or group been able to shape the course, over a
period of time, of any phase of our vast body of constitutional law. But it can happen, and it has
happened here. The group is Jehovah's Witnesses." (1) Forty-five years later, William Shepard
McAnninch, professor of law at the University of South Carolina, supported Mulder and Comisky's
claim noting that the Witnesses have had "a profound and extensive impact on the development of
our law." (2)
While this well-deserved praise speaks to the outcomes of Jehovah's Witness court cases, to most
First Amendment scholars, the Witness successes in court, especially the Supreme Court, were
accidental. Legal scholars have uniformly dismissed the Witnesses' methods for bringing about First
Amendment cases, referring to their legal successes as mere unintended consequences of fanatical
preaching. For example, legal scholar Bernard Schwartz noted that Jehovah's Witnesses, "who
became involved in trouble with the law were only seeking to propagate their unpopular creed." (3)
Law Professor Charles Hasson queried that there must "be some basic difference within the tenets of
the Witnesses' religion to produce this flood of litigation." His conclusion: Witnesses "trample upon
the sensitive nature of modern society." (4) Legal scholar Louis Boudin speculated that civil liberties
cases generally, and the Jehovah's Witnesses' cases more specifically, "are usually the outgrowth of
temporary excitement, either general or local; and are frequently the result of action which is the
reverse of deliberate." (5)To these scholars and others, the Jehovah's Witness had no legal strategy.
They simply fell headlong into Supreme Court litigation.
These simple explanations for Witness legal activities disregard the complex plan devised by
Watchtower executives and carried out by hundreds of men and women to combat local literature
distribution and permit ordinances. In reality, the Witnesses' success in the Supreme Court was more
organizational than accidental.
So, after Moyle had his falling out with the Society, and was replaced by Covington, the aggressiveness of the Society in pursuing court cases became apparent.
In conjunction with Rutherford, Covington created a plan for addressing and
overcoming legal obstacles that stood in the way of Witness preaching. "Under the leadership of
Rutherford," historian Merlin Owen Newton concluded, "Witnesses prepared for Armageddon in a
nationally orchestrated, aggressive campaign. In the streets and courtrooms throughout the land they
confronted state and local officials whose ordinances hindered the coming of Jehovah's Kingdom."
(8)
The Watchtower lawyers implemented a comprehensive campaign to prepare Witnesses for the legal
battles they would face. (9) Witnesses were instructed in how to prepare for violence, arrest, trial,
appeal, and jail time. They were provided names of attorneys and suggestions for obtaining bail.
When Witnesses went to the streets with the Word of God, they also carried summaries of Supreme
Court decisions. Spiritually and legally, Witnesses were prepared to face the unfaithful.
The book/pamphlet that was designed to prepare the Jehovah's Witnesses for legal battle was available at the 1941 assemblies, and was presented by H. Covington during his address at the St. Louis convention. The talk was called Advice For Kingdom Publishers and the book that was given to those publishers was Jehovah's Servants Defended.
Henderson, in her essay, gives some background to the development of the legal department of the Society:
To initiate the new legal offensive, a new institutional structure had to be created within the
Watchtower organization. In 1935, Rutherford asked Olin Moyle to take over a legal department that
had been inactive since 1907 when Rutherford left the position to take over the presidency. (26) This
legal department would be the central clearinghouse for all Witness cases. From this office at the
Watchtower headquarters, Bethel House in Brooklyn, N.Y., every arrest, defense, and appeal would
be coordinated.
Prior to the reinstatement of a formal legal department, Witnesses in the field had little formal legal
support from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society headquarters. While a standardized protocol for
dealing with legal matters was available to all members in 1935, Witnesses who had been arrested
were "expected to conduct their own defenses at the trial level, following a standard set of
instructions issued by the Society." (27) If Witnesses were issued fines by the courts, they were
instructed to refuse to pay, choosing jail time instead. (28) Prior to 1933, no formal plan to appeal
cases was in place. Therefore, many of these early cases ended with Witnesses serving time in local
jails.
The legal department was up and running when Hayden Covington joined the staff in 1939. At the
time of Covington's arrival, the Watchtower legal department consisted of the chief legal counsel,
several assistants, and a clerical staff. Many of the practices for gathering information from local
congregations and contacting attorneys had already been established. Booklets providing legal
instructions to Witnesses in the field had been distributed. The legal department was not proactive,
however, until Hayden Covington arrived. Covington's first task was to develop a legal strategy as
aggressive as Rutherford's spiritual one. The first step of his plan was to identify local communities
where Witnesses faced legal roadblocks to their ministry
The 'accidental' explanation for the Jehovah's Witnesses ending up in court, and incidentally, clogging up the court system in the process does not hold up when you consider the following:
Covington would determine which communities were targeted for intensive fieldwork, and thus,
potential future litigation. Covington would "send people into areas they knew would be a problem,
especially if there was a large Catholic population," (29) "an active priest," (30) or "previous
opposition." (31) Covington would simply inform a certain congregation that they needed to preach in
a certain territory, often adding, "It hasn't been preached in awhile." (32) For example, in New Haven,
Connecticut, three Witnesses and two of their sons were canvassing Cassius Street with a new
Judge Rutherford recording attacking the Roman Catholic Church. About 90 percent of the residents
of Cassius Street were Roman Catholic. (33) While Covington never admitted to deliberately
provoking local residents or law enforcement agents, his tactics often produced the desired
outcome--arrest.
Identifying localities ripe for litigation was a long, often challenging process. When communities
initially targeted produced little response from law enforcement, Witnesses were sent on to the next
potential test site. Professor Jerry Bergman, a former Jehovah's Witness, explained, "They would
deliberately send them into this area and if there was no problem, send them into another area." (34)
Covington "probed in community after community," Historian Merlin Owen Newton wrote, "to
determine local limits." (35) Covington saw the process of cultivating arrests and appeal as a
"long-term struggle," one that would not end by "winning a case tomorrow." (36)
And now we can see how malicious and uncaring the Society was about the people (and that includes their children) that they demanded such high loyalty from:
Witnesses were often sent into confrontational situations unaware of the danger, (37) but they did not
question Covington's plan. Even when they may have suspected trouble, Witnesses were taught not
to question decisions from the Watchtower leadership who claimed they had a direct line to God.
Also, Witnesses saw themselves as instruments of God, and "God was fighting this battle." (38)
Witnesses believed that they should be used in whatever way necessary to advance the cause.
Newton explained that Roscoe and Thelma Jones, whose case Jones v. Opelika would reach the
Supreme Court in 1942, believed "if their convictions could be used to further the larger cause ... then
their convictions must be part of Jehovah's divine plan." (39)
With so many JWs getting arrested, the legal system had its hands full:
The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society also created divisions of mobile Witnesses who would go to
the assistance of their brethren in case of trouble. The country was divided into seventy-eight areas,
each patrolled by a division of mobile Witnesses who would descend on any "hot spot" where local
members had been arrested. These mobile Witnesses would blanket a town, visiting each house
within an hour of their arrival. The job of these Witnesses, in addition to spreading the word of God,
was to get arrested, thus clogging the local jail and legal system and freeing up local members to
return to their work. (40) By replacing local members with mobile Witnesses in the jails, Covington
was able to ensure that the Watchtower could continue to spread the Word of God and generate test
cases. With law enforcement and court officials tied up in processing the newly arrived Witnesses,
local Witness members were free to continue proselytizing. The mobile Witnesses, recently arrested
under the same questionable ordinances, provided new opportunities for trial and appeal.
In addition to returning local Witnesses to their ministry, the plan had a secondary effect. By
prompting arrests in so many localities, the Witnesses generated test cases in multiple jurisdictions.
Subsequently, the legal team at Watchtower headquarters could choose which cases to pursue
based on the level of constitutional violation, the amount of persecution, or the predilections of sitting
judges.
The army of Jehovah's Witnesses that were sent out in the field, not only were given instruction on how to deal with the householders, but they were also trained diligently in things related to the law. Beginning with Moyle, and perfected by Covington, the Society printed and distributed pamphlets for the JWs with instructions on how to behave legally, both outside of the courts and in trial. This training was extensive, detailed, and as Henderson points out, very effective:
Jehovah's Witnesses were excellent pupils. They had been schooled for years in how to best reach
the public with the news of salvation. A 1940 New York Post article explained that a Jehovah's
Witness, "knows the answer to every possible question, and once a prospect begins asking
questions, it is only a matter of minutes before [she] is in the parlor." (66) Learning the ins and out of
the legal world was no different. To Witnesses familiar with taking orders and following directions,
learning how to be arrested or the best way to get a case appealed to a higher court was no problem.
The legal strategy of the Society was extensive and well organized right down to the congregational level:
Each congregation, after having gathered information from its members, was assigned the task of
reporting any arrests or litigation in its territory to Watchtower headquarters. Covington then selected
which cases to more closely follow or join. When sifting through reports from the congregations,
Covington was looking for litigants "who had good reputations in the community, who were
storeowners, who were shopkeepers." (102) Most of all, Covington wanted to eliminate as many
extraneous variables as possible. For example, if a Jehovah's Witness appearing in court had a son
who was kicked out of school, that Witness would be removed from consideration as a test case.
(103) Covington wanted to be sure the judge or jury had no reason, before the case began, to vote
against his client.
The Watchtower legal team also chose litigants who would play on the emotions of jurists. "They
wanted women," Professor Jerry Bergman recalled Covington saying, "especially women that had
children." These women, Covington believed, would be seen as "just a mother who was doing God's
will." (104) This strategy seemed to work for the Watchtower as many of the literature distribution
cases that reached the Supreme Court had women as litigants. (105)
Race was also a consideration. Covington said that they had some cases with black defendants they
thought they could use, but were concerned prejudice would "mix the issues." (106) Bergman noted
that Covington felt, "they may lose if they were black. So, almost all of the cases were white." (107)
One of the few Jehovah's Witness cases to reach the Supreme Court with an African American as
defendant was Jones v. Opelika. Interestingly, Covington and the Witnesses initially lost this case
when it reached the Supreme Court in 1942, although the decision was overturned a year later.
The legal issue that had been chosen for the children of the Society to fight was the flag salute. The army of children that were recruited and indoctrinated at the assemblies in the summer of 1941 were selected to target the American legal system over the issue of flag salute. Over the course of years that the flag salute controversy was played out in the legal system - all the way to the Supreme Court in 1943 - over 2000 JW children were expelled from school and they, and their families, were subjected to intense persecution for obeying the Watchtower Society.
At the assemblies in the summer of 1941, Rutherford spoke about the American flag and why the JWs would not salute it or say the pledge of allegiance.
...I will return...more to come....
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Before I go further, I want to post Judge Rutherford's remarks he made at the St. Louis assembly concerning the flag.
This taken from a 1941 newspaper clipping in the WatchtowerNewsScrapbook from archive.org that I linked to earlier.
Defends Jehovah Sect Patriotism
Judge Rutherford Insists members All Respect U.S. Flag
Asserting Jehovah's Witnesses have "the highest respect for the American flag - certainly far more than some of the country's fanatical flag wavers who are always first to break its laws," Judge J. F. Rutherford, leader of the sect, made an unscheduled address yesterday before 75,000 or more conventionites at the Arena and denounced their "so-called patriotic" critics.
The 72 year old former Missouri attorney for the first time spoke without prepared text, and likewise for the first time, spoke to his followers in an intimate and jovial vein. His jibes frequently evoked waves of laughter from a usually silent audience, but his thrusts at "demon enemies" were nevertheless severe.
"All Jehovah's Witnesses love the flag of the United States and the nation for which it stands," he said as the crowded thousands cheered. "We put forth every effort to obey every law it stands for.
"But I say to this world that by God's grace they will not bow down to anything.
"That flag means liberty to do what is right and does not mean license to compel people to violate their own conscience.
"Now let the roosters crow over that one.
"Some business men may criticise that statement, but I'm sure all old-time Missourians believe in doing what's right.
"You Witnesses are carrying a message. You are liberators of the people because you carry God's message. Because you are carrying this message and attempting to do what is right, some of these unscrupulous things that walk on two legs smash windows and destroy our property.
To put that in some context, let's look at some history of the flag salute issue.
The following material comes from the article I posted a link to earlier. "The Story of West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnett: the Pledge of Allegiance and the Freedom of Thought" published in Foundation Press Constitutional Law Stories 2004.
The article takes a look at the unfolding of the flag salute court cases as they made their way to the Supreme Court. The authors discuss the rationale for the judges' decisions that were made and also examines some of the ramifications that occurred as a result of these cases. It is lengthy, but worth reading for a full understanding of the authors analysis of how the cases played out and the importance of what happened as a result of the decisions of the Supreme Court.
Protests against flag salute requirements did not originate with the Jehovah's Witnesses. In 1916, in an episode that became famous in Chicago, an eleven-year-old African-American student named Hubert Eaves refused to salute the flag because of its association with racial discrimination and lynching. Members of other sects, beginning with the Mennonites in 1918, refused to salute the flag for religious reasons. Only when the issue became salient to the Jehovah's Witnesses, did this act of conscience evolve into a full scale protest movement supported by constitutional litigation.
A couple comments about the above.
Hubert Eaves refusal to salute the flag was also based upon his race, the African-Americans, not being allowed to vote.
The Jehovah's Witnesses, unlike other religious groups or individuals, had the power to take the flag salute issue into the Supreme Court. They had the membership, the organization, and the means to do so. The Jehovah's Witnesses had the Watchtower Society behind them and the Watchtower Society had the means to organize and instill extreme loyalty in their followers.
Witness resistance to the pledge of allegiance first emerged at the grass roots level, possibly sparked by sympathy for the plight of religionists in Germany who were being persecuted for refusing to deliver the Nazi salute. On September 30, 1935, Carleton Nicholls, a Jehovah's Witness, remained seated and refused to salute the flag during the opening exercises of his third grade class in Lynn, Massachusetts, announcing that he would not pay tribute "to the Devil's emblem". As a result, he was expelled from school. Rutherford praised the boy in his weekly radio address and encouraged all Witnesses to follow Nicholl's example. In response, Jehovah's Witnesses all over the nation began refusing to salute the flag. Within one year of Rutherford's October 6,1935 radio address, some 120 Witnesses were expelled from school for not participating in flag ceremonies.
And so the battle cry went out and, just like that, Joe's army was mounted and in service to the direction issued by the Watchtower Society's mouthpiece.
The week after Rutherford's radio address, two Witnesses, twelve-year-old Lillian Gobitas and her ten-year-old brother William, stopped saluting the flag, prompting their expulsion from the Minersville, Pennsylvania school system. After fruitless efforts to acheive an administrative resolution, the students and their parents, supported by lawyers supplied by Rutherford as well as the American Civil Liberties Union, sued to enjoin the school board.
The American Civil Liberties Union was founded in 1920.
Some of their early cases involved advocating for the release of contentious objectors from World War 1.
The ACLU represented several of the Bible Students in those years.
The court's ruling upholding the power of the school board to require all children, including the Witnesses, to salute the flag was handed down June 3, 1940.
In early 1940, before the Court's decision, school expulsions of Witnesses had occurred or were in process in fifteen states. According to the Witnesses' records, in the wake of Gobitis over two thousand children of their faith were expelled from school for refusal to pledge allegiance to the flag, with such expulsions occurring in each of the forty-eight states.
So, only one year before the St. Louis convention, the Watchtower Society had lost an important court case.
And there were school expulsions happening in 15 states.
Then the assembly happened. And the Children of the King were armed and put into action.
And just like that - over 2000 JW children got the opportunity to demonstrate their loyalty to the Theocratic Government. They got to test out the pledge of allegiance they had made that summer to the Theocratic Government/Watchtower Society AKA The King. Those children were being asked to test their pledge of allegiance to the Watchtower Society against the American pledge of allegiance.
The Theocratic Government challenged the US Government that summer.
And they used the children to do it.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
- Frederic Bastiat
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When the flag salute issue made it to the Supreme Court for the second time, in 1943, two years after the army of children were sent out to show their loyalty to the Theocratic Government, the Supreme Court ruled that those who follow the Theocracy, the Watchtower Society, cannot be 'compelled' to salute the flag or say the pledge of allegiance.
In questioning the general power of the government to compel participation in a flag salute, the Court transformed the case from a dispute over special religious exemptions to one that implicated the freedom of speech of all students, including those whose objections to participation derived from moral or political rather than religious scruples. This re-conception of the central constitutional issues at stake came largely at the Court's own initiative. The briefs of the Witnesses and their amici had focused almost exclusively on freedom of religion, as had the briefs in Gobitis.
The authors of the paper I posted in my previous comment discuss the implications that the right to be silent has on free speech as well as why compelled speech should not be part of the constitution and why compelled speech differs from curriculum requirements that use rote learning.
For the right of free speech to be fully meaningful, the conditions for sincere, deliberate communication should be satisfied. People should have the opportunity to express what they mean at the times, places, and discursive junctures they find appropriate. To have to speak prematurely may interfere with a person's deliberate process and force him to speak before his thoughts are adequately settled. Or it may impede strategically timed interventions. The right not to speak also protects both the First Amendment and privacy interests individuals have in controlling how they represent themselves to others. Further, in a hostile atmosphere, the right to be silent or to remain anonymous may provide social cover for dissenters.
However, as the authors point out, the right not to speak does not really apply to Barnett, because participation in the salute would serve the silence of the individual better than not participating which, in effect, has voice - it is loud to not participate in an activity when everyone else does.
And, basically, when it came down it, what was determined at that Supreme Court appeals case in 1943, was that the government does not have the right to compel speech.
Compelled speech is a part of inculcation, not education, and the Supreme Court determined that the constitution of the United States did not allow for compelled speech.
So, in the end, it appears like the Theocratic Government, which does not allow free speech inside of its walls, which blatantly practices compelled speech, which inculcates young children so easily by simply threatening them with death, can and does demand the right to not be subjected to the compelled speech of another government.
I have no issue with the constitutional changes that occurred - I do have an issue that the courts ignored the compelled speech that drove the court case in the first place.
And it leaves me is asking this question - if the United States Supreme Court rules in favor of opting out of compelled speech - how come the Watchtower Society is not held to the same standards? Who holds the Watchtower Society accountable? The ACLU jumped on the side of the Society at that time, but where do they stand in the fight for children's rights within that same organization that they supported in the Supreme Court?
What does the ACLU think about the violations to free speech that all JW kids endure? Who is going to hold the Society accountable to the same standards that they hold everyone else to - why is free speech not a constitutional right of individual JWs within their own organization?
There is something fundamentally wrong with a court system that would recognize the rights of individuals who have been so obviously manipulated and used by an organization. The Watchtower Society is an organization/government that violates those very same principles and does not give those same rights to its members.
My brain is still trying to wrap around this concept - the Watchtower Society strips all right to free speech away from its members and yet is able to go to court and demand that from the country. And get it.
I realize that it seems like I took a long, winding journey with seemingly unrelated issues being discussed when earlier I had made the assertion that the Society has something they have planned with their recent makeover and their recent kid friendly appearance, complete with a dedication card that children can sign to 'sacrifice for Jehovah'.
And, I had said that it has something to do with the child abuse cases that are currently happening in the courts.
Well, I am not familiar with the details of the Society's position in the courts, what they are filing, etc...but I cannot shake the feeling that something is happening in the courts that would would see this type of reaction from the Society. They have used children before in their legal battles and they will do it again.
I grew up in the JWs as a child who experienced the deprivation of no holidays and no children centered activity in the kingdom hall - everything was so adult centered - the adults would make fun of other churches that gave out Sunday School material to kids ( oh we don't color bible pictures - our children don't need that). The JW environment for a kid was austere and cold and strict.
This flip to a child friendly religion has to be a deliberate maneuver and a response to legal issues. That is the Society's historical pattern and I would not expect them to change it.
How is it connected? Maybe it is just appearance - the public image. I hope so - I would hate to think that this new generation of Children of the King are being used to protect the Society for their sins of covering up child abuse and protecting criminals.
Look at the photos again - some have mentioned how cute the girls are. I didn't even really see the girls when I first looked at the photo - I saw a man with his arms around three underage girls - he is behind them and it is as though they are his shield - he is holding them in front of himself, with his fist out to the camera and closed - I am unsure if it is a sign of victory or aggressiveness - but it doesn't seem consistent with his weird smile. The bottom photo is disturbing in what it is presenting - 3 little girls 'protecting' a man.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
- Frederic Bastiat
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Maybe this explains the Society's big push on child recruitment:
Minister of God.
Dedication to Jehovah.
Was there not a point of issue in a Watchtower brief in the Conti trial that proposed that the child was also a 'minister of god' and therefore on the same 'spiritual plane' as the man who molested the child in field service? That they were both 'ministers of god'? That the child was implied as being on the same 'spiritual footing'; or some crap like that?
It was some straw that the Society's lawyers were grasping that would allow the man to not be held up as an authority figure - that he did not abuse his position of authority because....tada....the child and him had the same 'authority'.
They were both on the same level with Jehovah. Dedicated ministers of god - the child is the same as the adult.
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 4 days ago. Edited 1 times.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Some points from the talk (I had a hard time taking notes - I think this is the very first talk that I have listened to since the summer of '71. I hope you appreciate that, Andria!smiley: smile) Seriously, I used to get physically ill whenever I heard snips of talks from the Society - this one, because I listened to it with a complete disconnection from the concept of god or anything 'religious', I managed it without psychosomatic reaction - only disgust that a political organization can cloak itself under the veil of religion...and get away with it.
ABSOLUTELY I appreciate you putting your delicate shell-likes into listening mode ... it could not have been easy. I usually last around the five minute mark but by then I've already started to get cross ... and start to move around in my chair. Old habits may die hard but listening to that garbage is tough for any of us who have a brain!!!!
It is worrying that all of a sudden since the jw . org (I refuse to put those together any more closely .....) campaign ... lots of kid stuff HAS been obvious. It may be a distraction for those who don't know about the historical use of children or who are not familiar with the whole domestic and family violence type of religious structure ..... but it won't fool us. We are far too canny to be distracted so easily ... and so very cleverly. NOT clever enough!
There was a photo of a little kid around the 3 or 4 age group (I'll go find it) on a jdub bookface site .... of which there are SO many now ........ who was dressed like his great-grandfather or someone like that (will check my facts) ..... with the printed cloth magazine bag slung across his shoulders, dressed in early 1900's clothing. Everyone who did the old 'like' thing thought he was adorable ... what a great witness to Jehovah ... what a true servant of Jehovah etc. I wasn't sure whether I was feeling cross because they dragged that poor kid into the whole 'let's dress up and have fun' thing and then splattered his dear little face over the internet that the WBTS until very recently considered to be evil! Or .... if I was feeling cross because it's blatant child abuse in so many different ways! Probably both!
Thanks for the excellent research Dianne. I'm going to re-read it all again .... make some notes .... and wait for my next door banging session!!!!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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1914
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offlinepunkofnice
1914
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Oct 16 14 11:55 PM
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It seems the GB are still not letting go or revising the 1914 doctrine. It's now over 100 years since Jesus was supposed to have done his invisible stuff and still nothing is happening apart from the WBT$ re-brnding their product. I hear there is a part coming up on the meeting soon where a video will be shown from TV.JW about 1914. I wonder why they haven't given the old 1914 thing a miss. It is rather a weird doctrine now.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
status offlinepalmel1234
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The 1914 doctrine was too ingrained in the JW culture to completely let go of.
It was rather foolish to pin so much on this date.
It rather reminds me of the sunken cost fallacy, the borg knows this whole 1914 prophecy was doomed,
but rather than change course, they keep throwing good money after bad.
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status offlinemaksutov
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The fact that their end of the world prophecy happened to coincide with something significant happening in that year (albeit not what they predicted) makes it irresistible to claim (or rather, strongly hint) that they were given divine foreknowledge of WWI. In addition, having hyped that year up so much, and having so much doctrine hanging off the 1914 date (including their claim to have been chosen by Jesus in 1918), to change it now would require a lot of reworking and a great deal of embarrassment, probably with a corresponding loss of followers. They're in too deep to let it go!
palmel1234 wrote:
It rather reminds me of the sunken cost fallacy, the borg knows this whole 1914 prophecy was doomed,
but rather than change course, they keep throwing good money after bad.
Exactly.
Russ.
status onlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Oct 17 14 12:31 PM
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Good afternoon my friends; this is a good conversation. We're having beautiful weather today and still preparing for winter. Everything is quite and so I get my computer time.smiley: wink
Mak and Palm...some very good points you helped remind me of. [More research] and thanks Punkie that you brought up the subject...hope all's going well with yourock on
Not only will they [WTBTS] apparently not change their doctrine as to 1914; fence rider wants telling me they never said anything about 1975 being the end of the worldStuff it so I'm not to say anything about that to her while she preaches her old doctrine.
As I had mentioned in another forum about being under "Red Alert", she was ready to run somewhere 'safe'. And of course the JW would be protected because of Jehovah. It's not been easy but hopefully she is learning not everyone lives in fear. We simply take care of business as necessary and don't depend upon any religion telling us how to think, believe or live our life.
status offlinebirdwoman2
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I wonder why they haven't given the old 1914 thing a miss. It is rather a weird doctrine now.
It is complicated, punkie, and like maksutov said - they are in too deep to let it go.
But, to keep it simple, the entire 'scriptural' justification for the Governing Body's authority is tied up with the 1914 date. Without the date of 1914, the GB has no biblical basis for being the 'faithful and discreet slave' in charge of all the money.
It is a tangled web and would require some work to put together, but there is a distinct correlation between the 1914 doctrine and the ownership of the Watchtower Society. Much was happening with the battle for control of the Society during that time period, Rutherford emerged victorious, and, it was from that point on that the date of 1914 was pivotal in establishing control and authority of the Society and its religious publishing company.
If I get some time, I will try to sort out the threads of correlation so that you can see how 1914 solidified Rutherford's power, and from there, the basis for the Governing Body's authority. When it comes to understanding the JW doctrine, there is always, always, a correlation to politics - either internal or external.
The other thing about the 1914 date is that it is about the only thread that holds them to Russell - some people claim that the 1914 date was the only 'prophecy' that he came close to predicting - it was sort of close - it wasn't Armageddon but it was a world war, nonetheless. So, by keeping that date, they can still claim to be a 'mouthpiece' for god and still have justification for the ownership of the Watchtower Society. The date remains as a link to tie the two very different religions together so that the Society can claim continuity.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
- Frederic Bastiat
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Okay, Punkie. I think I can tackle this.
I will try. Please bear with me.
I have left out a lot of details and tried to simplify events.
Here goes.
What becomes important about the date of 1914 is that all the events that occurred after Russell's death, within the political structure of the Watchtower Society - the fights, the divisions, the internal problems of the Society and the resulting control and ownership of the printing presses and whatever else the Society owned, have been spiritually justified by using 1914 as the date that Jesus returned invisibly.
Pastor Russell died in 1916 and the struggle for control of the Watchtower and the Society's printing presses were numerous and ruthless. There were many falling outs, and from those dissensions, several Bible Student groups formed independent from the Watchtower Society.
1918 was critical - Rutherford and 7 (?) others were imprisoned for spreading sedition and treason. Current JWs will say that they were being prohibited from distributing their magazines but, it was not the magazines that were the problem. The problem was the book "The Finished Mystery" which contained seditious comments. The offending pages were later removed once the book was put into circulation again.
Also in 1918, another division occurred within the Watchtower, with many leaving the Society.
Also, Rutherford and his cronies were released from prison, and 1918 became another significant date in the doctrine/history of the cult.
1922 was also critical in the bid for control of the Society, another squabble, and again - Rutherford won out.
To add some more context, in 1925, the organization started to make some significant changes to the way it organized field service and the congregational authority structure and they tested some of their ideas out over in Germany. Rutherford went to Germany, had another one of his famous squabbles, and booted out Conrad Binkele who had been in charge of the German Watchtower. It was then, over the course of the next few years, that meeting sizes were changed, the literature was simplified, zones were tried out, - basically, the congregational and organizational structure of the religion was tried out there and then brought to America.
And they became known as Jehovah's witnesses in 1931. AKA Joe's Army. A new name and a new doctrine - Russell's Zionist doctrine was tossed aside and Joe relocated Palestine to Beth Sarim in California and called his new religion 'spiritual Israel'. Replacement theology.
And...what does that have to do with 1914?
I have copied this excerpt from the Assembly Report of the St. Louis convention that was held in 1941. It is from a talk that was given by T. J. Sullivan and was titled "Zone Assembly and Its Purpose".
This is 10 years after Rutherford did his makeover and adopted the name of Jehovah's witnesses.
Without the doctrine of Jesus returning in 1914, the following explanation for organizational authority and control of the Watchtower Society could not have occurred.
The Scriptures and the facts clearly prove that the Lord, the great Judge, came to His temple in 1918, that He tested His servant, and in 1922 He delegated His "faithful and wise servant" to act for Him, and that "faithful and wise servant" is His people organized and known as the Watchtower Bible And Tract Society, Jehovah's witnesses.
*note how 'the great Judge' came to his temple the very same year that Joe had another squabble and maintained control of the Society. I am not sure of the which piece of Watchtower literature that I read it, but Rutherford uses his time in jail as part of this chronology somehow.
*also note that 1922, another biblical date, was, again, another control for power bid within the Watchtower Society
**note that the 'faithful and wise servant' was named as the Jehovah's witnesses
But keep this in mind: that his delegating authority is not conferred upon any individual. Timothy and Titus represented a collective body, not some individual. It is the collective body or organization that issues organization instructions, rebukes when necessary, and issues any other counsel to the church under the direction of the Lord. The president of the Watchtower Bible And Tract Society, therefore, is the physical mouthpiece of the organization and the one appointed by the Lord to determine policy, issue organization instructions, etc., he, of course, acting for the organization and as directed by the Lord.
That was short lived - there went all the authority that anyone might have thought they had as just one of Jehovah's witnesses. Only Joe had that. But, note that Sullivan is claiming Rutherford is only the 'mouthpiece' of the organization itself. The mouthpiece of the Watchtower Society. The organization.
And here comes the control and authority of the Watchtower Society in action:
Special organization instructions covering the field service are sent forth. These are based upon the Scriptures and in full accord with the organization established by the Lord at His first Advent. These instructions are binding upon everyone in the organization. they are not discretionary, but entirely mandatory. No regional servant, zone servant or company servant has any right to alter or amend them.
Always carry out the instructions you have received as from the Lord. Report to the office according to organization instructions, so that the bethren there who check your report with full confidence, so that they in turn may carry out their part of the Theocratic arrangements.
Of course, the Society has changed their mouthpiece throughout the years that have since passed, but, basically, nothing has changed. The Watchtower Society has the Scriptural Authority to do what they want - even change the mouthpiece to a body of men.
But they need that 1914 date to do it.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
- Frederic Bastiat
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 Oct 17 14 2:50 PM. Edited 1 times.
status offlinepalmel1234
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Wow, very interesting Dianne.
Thanks for researching all that.
Interesting how much the rank and file don't know about the history of the JWs.
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status onlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Palm, I'm with you on how anyone does the research that helps us understand the insanity of the WTBTS...
Bird 2 - thank you for sharing.
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Yes, Linda, it is insanity.
Mel, there has been much about the history and development of the Watchtower Society that is kept hidden from its religious membership.
Here is a little tidbit that has nothing really to do with the 1914 date other than that the consolidation of power that followed Russell's death hid this detail.
When Pastor Russell died, he named five(I think it was 5) women who would succeed him and have control in the Society.
The women 'disappeared' from consideration during one of Rutherford's bids for control of the Society. Many researchers point to the fact that Rutherford wasn't actually named as being on the editorial committee and that he weaseled his way in the back door. What is never talked about is that the women mentioned in Russell's will were thrown under the bus at the same time.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
- Frederic Bastiat
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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You have excellent detective skills Dianne ..... a really interesting 1914 read!
I can't see the WBTS dumping the 1914 stuff either ... as they've made such a big thing of it over the years, it would be hard for them to whitewash it all, especially for the older diehard jdubs. Mind you ... in saying that ... their marketing people of the jw . org infamy ..... will most surely conjure up some reason or other to make the oldies from the past become 'imperfect men' etc etc etc.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Actually, Andria, it isn't detective work at all - it is just plain old hard research. It is time consuming and it is a lot of work. This recent makeover and doctrinal shifting is pretty interesting. What I have found is that the best historical time period to look at is 1941, the year that the book "Children" was released. There are many parallels between what happened that year and what is happening right now with the Watchtower Society's new religious focus.
There is quite a bit of documentation for 1941 - the assemblies were well reported on. The Society made sure that they had good coverage for that year - just like their recent spike in publicity. And there is good documentation in outside sources for that time period - it all about context. As I said earlier - every move the Society makes within its doctrinal framework, has a political motive somewhere - either internally or externally and usually in both spheres.
I realize that I have far more time to devote to this than most, so...back to reading about 1941.
Both inside and outside of the organization called the Watchtower Society.
So many things were happening then...
I think that 1941 is far more significant than 1914.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
- Frederic Bastiat
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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I was curious about the ages of the current GB and how many of them might have been around during the Rutherford era and especially the release of the 'Children' book. I believe my dad was one of those and he was a staunch supporter of Rutherford and would hear no criticism of the man......it was weird to me that he would be that way....did Rutherford hypnotize all those kids?! I listened to a few talks on those vinyl records of Rutherford speaking and as a 1970's era JW I thought the guy sounded like a hellfire and damnation preacher without the hellfire.....I found his speech unsettling. He just sounded like an angry man.
As for the current GB, the only one maybe around for that book release would have been Sam Herd (1935). He was born just a few years later than my dad. Three members were born in the '40's, David Splane (1944), Stephen Lett (1949) and Gerrit Losch (1941). Then of course there are the youngin's Mark Sanderson (born 1965) and Geofrey Jackson (1955).
It just is weird as I said, how people like my father were and how todays witlesses seem to be under hypnotic suggestion.
I know........it's a cult.....with a decidedly strong business angle. Thanks Diane for finding all that history.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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When Pastor Russell died, he named five(I think it was 5) women who would
succeed him and have control in the Society.
The women 'disappeared' from consideration during one of Rutherford's bids
for control of the Society. Many researchers point to the fact that Rutherford
wasn't actually named as being on the editorial committee and that he weaseled
his way in the back door. What is never talked about is that the women mentioned
in Russell's will were thrown under the bus at the same time.
Wasn't there a woman that wrote a lot of the articles in the Watchtower for Russell?
I think her first name was Barbara?
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That is quite possible, Mel.
I have read claims that much of Rutherford's material for his books was penned by women. Bonnie Boyd, for one.
The invisible women of the Society. I think there could be much learned from researching the almost hidden women who had connections to the Society 'back in the day'.
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 5 days ago. Edited 1 times.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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You're doing a fabulous job with the research Dianne. I shall have to rummage around in my dad's shed and see how far back all of his jdub stuff goes to. I may be able to find some of those elusive articles we have people ask about!
Our town of Albany is currently gearing up to a massive ANZAC celebration ... as in it's 100 years next weekend that the ships started sailing off to World War I. There is chaos everywhere as the council workers try to tizzy up the town ... road works, painting facades of buildings, more road works, gardens and landscaping, MORE road works. Said to Gav today that most people are excited about the ANZAC 100th celebration ..... yet for me it's kind of like an unofficial 100th celebration for how long the WBTS has been lying to themselves, to one another and to the world ... about the end being 'so close'!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Hi Punkie.
I think I found out why the Society has to keep the 1914 doctrine that Christ has already arrived in 1914.
Invisibly, of course.
A non-threat...invisible.
It is today's fear of terrorism that drives it - and that is derived not from the Society, it comes from government influence on church teachings.
The doctrine is driven by the IRS.
I made a post about this on another forum, but I will post some of it here, too.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/600502/posts
US Government Through the IRS Outlaws Preaching on Second Coming of Christ
One of the reasons the IRS gave to Texe Marr's Living Truth Ministries for removing their tax exempt status is as follows: "Much of the material you disseminate promises to address possible conspiracies or threats, either from individuals, groups or various agencies, against Christianity, freedom or other rights. This is evident from a review of your newsletters and order forms. The titles and promotional materials are designed to sensationalize and grab the readers attention. They usually imply that the works will expose certain prominent groups, individuals, politicians or government agencies as being part of or linked to some threat or conspiracy." One of the titles that the IRS gave as an example included "Bible Prophecy and The Conspiracy."
Any grade school child in Sunday School knows that you can't teach or write on Bible prophecy without dealing with the second coming of Jesus Christ. But just as the Russian pastors under communism were forbidden to speak on this subject, we are now coming to the same place in our beloved land. It is obvious that if one believes in the literal return of the Lord Jesus Christ that they will be considered a domestic terrorist. In that the Lord Jesus will destroy wicked government upon His return in great glory and break the back of Gentile world rule, this message isn't popular with the in-for-hells and the high-heeled-belles that run our country today. Of course, they don't believe that He is coming, but they believe that we who do will be involved in what they call self-fulfilled prophecies and try to hasten His coming by blowing up everything in sight. Further evidence of this type of anti-Christ thinking surfaced recently when a brochure put out by the FBI in Phoenix, Arizona, named "potential domestic terrorists" that law enforcement should be aware of. One of those groups is "Doomsday/Cult-Type." Obviously, this would include all Bible believing preachers and churches in America. We not only believe that there will be a literal doomsday, we believe that the Lord Jesus Christ will bring the doom when He comes (Rev. 6:12-17). It won't do any good to claim that your church is not a "cult". The IRS definition fits the average Bible believing church to a tee.
Many have asked if we can actually show them this in the law. Our answer is no, we can't because you won't find a specific law that says that you can't preach on the Second Coming of Jesus Christ in America today. That's because they don't have to write a law to gain the same effect. All Congress has to do is to give an outlaw agency like the IRS a carte blanche privilege of making up their own so-called laws as they go along. The churches agreed to this when they signed their tax-exempt contract. They said that they would obey all laws, federal, state and local, presently and in the future. But they apparently didn't read the fine print. The new churches filing for tax exemption must agree to the following: "The Corporation or organization shall have no power to take any action that would be required for a tax exemption under Internal Revenue
Code Section 501(c)(3) and related regulations, rulings, and procedures." It is now the "procedure" of the IRS to refuse tax exempt status to those churches that will not agree that all religions are equal and who refuse to join through tax exemption, the world church. Also, preaching on Christ's coming is taboo.
I gave the Watchtower Society far too much credit when I said that their doctrine was politically driven - the Watchtower boys only jump and bow to the authority above them and that authority is, stripped away and laid bare - quite simply money. Money is power and money is the only power they seek. They don't give a shit about anything except money - even their disfellowshipping policy is about tax exemption - it has nothing at all to do with anything 'spiritual'.
I always thought they had a 'purer' motive than that, but now, I think they just roll around in the gutter scrambling for coins just like any whore does.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
- Frederic Bastiat
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 3 days ago. Edited 3 times.
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I always thought they had a 'purer' motive than that, but now, I think they just roll around in the gutter scrambling for coins just like any whore does.
Summed up beautifully Dianne ........ I have to agree as money does seem to be of immense value to the borg right now. They've spent millions on their August 'advertising' campaign (the jw . org thing) .... and don't seem to be running out. I guess they won't run out though as the end is 'so close' ... they just send out letters asking for more money, in their 'let's advance Jehovah's great name' kind of way.
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"even their disfellowshipping policy is about tax exemption - it has nothing at all to do with anything 'spiritual'."
Ooooohhhh, Bird...that caught my attention. Could we have more information on that, please? Drooling
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"even their disfellowshipping policy is about tax exemption - it has nothing at all to do with anything 'spiritual'."
Ooooohhhh, Bird...that caught my attention. Could we have more information on that, please? Drooling
To understand this better it is critical to remember that historically, the boast of JWs everywhere, for many years, was that "We are not a religion". They were so proud that they could state that - it made them separate from the evil "Christendom". And they would proudly trot out a mantra that would claim that "The Watchtower Society is only a corporation that provides up with literature"...and "we are a group of like-minded people who study the Bible" or something along those lines. But the statement "We are not a religion" was still in use when I was JW kid in the 60s. (which was pretty confusing for a little kid to deal with) *edited to add - along with the phrases - 'we don't have clergy" "we don't have churches" and the classic - that all important phrase that has so much legal meaning - "we are ALL each and every one of us - an 'ordained' minister". (that 'ordained' minister phrase, by the way, has everything to do with why they have 'kingdom ministry' schools that all the publishers have to attend - they have to maintain schools to train ordained ministers in order to be a 'religion' under tax laws)
After the Second World War, The United States, like countries everywhere, had a huge war debt to deal with. So they made some changes in the tax laws. In 1950, the tax laws were changed and corporations lost their "tax bubble" and they saw increases in corporate tax.
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/legislation/1950.cfm
All of a sudden it became far more advantageous to claim a tax status as a 'religion' rather than a corporation.
But the Watchtower had a problem. They weren't established as a 'religion' and were viewed simply as a 'sect' or a 'cult'. The IRS had come up with a brilliant idea as to how to evaluate 'religions' - they based it upon the notion of 'genuine belief'. ALL of the members who followed the beliefs of the Watchtower Society had to be proven that they held 'genuine belief' in the Watchtower Society's teachings in order for the Society to qualify as a religion so they could take advantage of the tax breaks afforded religions. And that was a big problem for the Society - how on earth could they do that with every single member of their following?
In 1952 Nathan Knorr announced the official 'biblical' doctrine/policy of disfellowhipping. At that point the Society was able to establish 'genuine belief' in its followers.
In the years to follow the rank and file gradually learned to call themselves a 'religion'. And the Watchtower got their tax exemptions as a religion.
The disfellowshipping policy/doctrine was only put in place to satisfy the terms of the IRS in determining whether or not the Watchtower Society would qualify for a tax break and had nothing at all to do with genuine biblical doctrine.
In Canada one of the litmus tests for qualifying as a genuine 'religion' is the length of time that the religion has been around. I had made a statement earlier in this thread that the date of 1914 serves to connect two very disparate religions together to give the illusion that the Jehovah's Witnesses have been around longer than they have. The Canadian tax gurus use the age of 75 years as an estimate of longevity for religion tax status.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
- Frederic Bastiat
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 2 days ago. Edited 3 times.
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Funny you brought that up today. The Cap't and I were going through old stuff from our garage and came across a suitcase filled with old letters, cards, and photos. One of them was a letter from my JW mother dated 1970. As expected it had very little about her, or me, but there was a page and a half about "the end is coming soon". She was worried about me coming back to the organization before that Big Day. I wonder what she thought 54 years later, in 2014, as she lay dying and it still hadn't come.
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I need to add some information to this post - now that I have made the assertion that the disfellowshipping policy is linked to tax exemptions.
In Marley Cole's book Jehovah's Witnesses - the New World Society, which was penned under the direction of Nathan Knorr in 1955, the appendix has this to say about the Society's status as a religion:
By orders of the commissioner of internal Revenue, United States Treasury Department, under dates of November 9, 1934, march 22, 1935, April 23, 1938, September 1, 1942, and June 17, 1946, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Inc. (a New York corporation), and Watch Tower and Bible Tract Society (a Pennsylvania corporation), were held to be entitled to exemption from the making of income tax returns under the Federal Internal Revenue Act because such societies were charitable corporations engaged in religious activity. A similar ruling has been made in favour of the Society by the British government in England and in Canada. Copies of these orders are available in letter form to anyone who has reason for obtaining them upon request in writing addressed to the Society (legal office) at 124 Columbia Heights, Brooklyn 1, New York.
Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Inc. have been declared exempt also from the payment of taxes on real estate owned and used by them for carrying out the chartered purposes of the societies because such societies are benevolent and engaged in religious activity. Watch Tower and Bible Tract Society v. Allegheny City, PA., 14 Dist. 695 (1905); People’s Pulpit Association (name changed by law to Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Inc.) v. Purdy, New York Supreme Court, Kings County, May 1, 1915, affirmed (New York Supreme Court, Appellate Division, Second Department) 170 App. Div. 950 (1915).
Real estate owned and used by congregations of Jehovah’s witnesses as places of assembly, called “kingdom Halls,” have been declared entitled to the benefit of church exemptions from the payment of real estate taxes. Syracuse Center of Jehovah’s witnesses, Inc., v. City of Syracuse, 163 Misc. 535, 297 N.Y.S. 587 (New York Supreme Court, Onondaga County, July 7, 1937). *my note - one...just one court case... in 1937.
It is submitted that the Watch Tower Society and Jehovah’s witnesses are a legal religious organization and that their representatives engaged in preaching the gospel are legally recognized as ministers of religion, which entitles them to all privileges accorded to all religious organizations and ministers.
At the time I had used this quote on another long ago thread, I had made this comment:
I do not know who it is that the author is 'submitting' this information to....however, I will bet even money that the 'real' author of this book would know - the Tower had some purpose for this book to be published and had an audience in mind when it was written.
I believe that the above information was published publicly during the time that the Society was experiencing difficulties in establishing and/or retaining their tax exemptions as a religion.
It is in the same book that one will find the 'documentation' which 'proved' that Dwight Eisenhower's mother was a JW - the Eisenhower family connection to the Bible Students and later the JWs was featured in the appendix as well. The letter 'proving' Ida's affiliation to the JWs was later shown to be a fake. Eisenhower was the the president of the USA at the time it was published.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
- Frederic Bastiat
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 A day ago. Edited 1 times.
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A Blast From the Past
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offlinebirdwoman2
A Blast From the Past
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The current hooplah and excitement over the new jw. org apps and the jw tv channel etc. remind me a lot of the phonograph campaigns of the 30s and 40s.
f4736fa91935b35701065f8f3f32a75eae21c456
Recorded Bible discourses had a prominent role in the witnessing work during the 1930s and early 1940s The phonographs used by Kingdom publishers themselves underwent change with the passing of time. About 1934, when this work first started, there was a strong compact model with a spring-wound motor and carrying space for several discs. With 6 discs, it weighed twenty-one pounds. When this work first started the phonograph was so heavy that the brothers kept it in their automobile or left it at a convenient place until they found people who were willing to listen to a recorded Bible discourse.
A few years later, at an assembly in Columbus. Ohio, on September 15-20. 1937, the work using the portable phonograph on the doorstep was introduced. Formerly the Witnesses had been carrying the phonograph in the service but had only played it when invited inside. Now it was played on every doorstep. The procedure was simple: After stating that he had an important Bible message. the publisher would put the needle on the record and let it do the talking.
As of 1940. more than 40,000 phonographs were being used.
The release of a new model of phonographs is described in the 1941 Assembly Report:
Trim and streamlined, resembling a handsome piece of luggage, the new, pebbled gray phonograph is an improved instrument for the use of His witnesses to magnify Jehovah's name and to proclaim His King and His Theocratic Kingdom. Although specially designed for doorstep setups, the vertical-type machine is equally efficient for back-calls and model studies, as proved by hundreds of conventioners who were able to secure this equipment in St. Louis.
Equipped with a lock and key, also a complete set of instructions for its operation, each one of the new lightweight models was borne triumphantly away by a witness who counted himself fortunate in acquiring the instrument and eager to put it into Theocratic use. About 300 of the machines had been taken to The Arena, and they were disposed of with a rapidity that was suggestive of the proverbial hot cakes.
It was difficult to turn them out fast enough, as each had to be assembled by experts from Society headquarters, then tested, all of which required time. They were apportioned over a period of three days and meanwhile demonstrations were carried on with a special cutaway model showing the working mechanism within. The Lord's people, after all are at heart only children; hence it was with childish interest they watched, fascinated while the demonstrator model was put through its paces, and when the sound of Judge Rutherford's voice issued therefrom as the machine was held in one's hand in an upright position, there were no bounds to their enthusiasm. In their mind's eye they could picture themselves making doorstep setups with such a handy machine.
Each machine is also equipped with a package of chromium needles of the required length that must be used each needle being recommended for 25 playings. Full instructions for operating the machine also include an explanation of how to work the volume control. the shutter may be left almost closed for use in apartment houses, while outdoors it may be opened to give full volume.
One advantage which entranced the friends was the book compartment, the upper part of which may be used to hold two books and a number of booklets while below may be carried copies of Watchtower, Consolation, Kingdom News, and additional booklets. Or, in case of getting ready to hold a model study, sufficient bound books, Bible etc., for references may be safely stowed away in the double compartment along with Model Study booklet eliminating the necessity of carrying another witnessing case. Two records - four sides - the maximum number usually desired for a model study of one hour's length may be carried on the turntable when the machine is closed.
Those who have read the instructions given with each machine value highly the detailed outline of how to arrange and carry out the doorstep setup even to the statement the witness makes in introducing the playing of the record; also advice on adjusting and care of the phonograph.
The new phonograph weighs but 8 3/4 pounds empty. One may imagine its intricate and devious workings when it is remembered that each machine contains 215 parts. The "insides" of a typical machine were displayed on a board at the phonograph counter, at St. Louis, the same being a revelation even to the mechanically-minded. Moulds, dies and tools for construction of the new model were made under the direction of the Society. Production will be continued as rapidly as possible, so that more machines may be put into the possession of witnesses as rapidly as possible.
Surely the Lord has again shown His goodness to His people by placing such an efficient instrument in their hands and they will show their gratitude by wielding it as effectively and accurately as Ehud used his dagger on fat old Eglon.
Note the Society's attitude towards the rank and file in the paragraph I highlighted. "The Lord's people, after all are at heart only children; hence it was with childish interest they watched, fascinated ..." Keep in mind, though, the Society was speaking of adult JWs being like children.
Maybe that is what made it easy for the Society to recruit the children to participate in spreading Watchtower propaganda.
17926231aeb430275c1386a35eda2931c4205a69
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
- Frederic Bastiat
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 2 days ago. Edited 1 time.
status onlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Thanks for posting.
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Oh yeah! I remember that! One summer day my little girlfriend and I were playing dress-up in her (JW) grandmother's fancy old clothes stored in the old chicken coop behind her house. Among the 'treasures' we discovered was one of those Watchtower portable record players AND some Judge Rutherford records. I have no idea how many years it had been stored among the stuff there, but when we put a record on and it played! His style of speech was bombastic--very much like Hitler's voice was. I don't know if that was because of the poor quality of the recording, or if that particular style was considered special back in the days when it was recorded but by the time we heard it was awful. It meant nothing to us (1950s), just some old novelty to be giggled about. We and soon left him blaring and went off to go try on the old hats and gloves packed in a dusty trunk left there. I sure wish I'd done that with everything else left by the WT.
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CeeCee, you nailed it about Rutherford's speaking style. I told my father that his voice scared me when I put one of those old records on grandmas old phonograph player. He did sound like Hitler!
Diane, your highlighted section would have blared out to me without the highlights even. That IS the attitude that the GB have towards rhe rank & file witness...children...not adult or intelligent enough to study the Bible on their own and form an adult opinion about what they've read. And the sad part is that the rank & file don't even catch the insult to their intelligence! Then there is the point that they exploit actual children in their work *grrr*😡
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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The procedure was simple: After stating that he had an important Bible message. the publisher would put the needle on the record and let it do the talking.
LOL, so back then they didn't have to learn how to give a presentation. As the quote says, Judge Rutherford did all the talking for them!
And I agree with Sharon, that statement about the "Lord's people" being like children would have stood out to me even without the highlight.
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And I agree with Sharon, that statement about the "Lord's people" being like children would have stood out to me even without the highlight.
Oh dear. I am sorry - I didn't mean to treat you like children! smiley: embarassed
Sorry if I came across as condescending....I guess I was thinking of the weird and off chance that some of those Children of the King generation way up there in Society might read this some day and I wanted to make sure, seeing as their parents were viewed as 'children', that they didn't miss it. smiley: tongue
I know that this generation of readers are savvy...and especially our dear forum members....youze guys are brilliant! smiley: happy After all, you figured out the Society's scam a long time ago!
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
- Frederic Bastiat
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CeeCee - I played with one of those phonographs when I was a little girl too. It was stored in the basement and we have long cold winters up here so I listened to old Rutherford a lot when I was preschool age - we had one of the music records too. My mother used to hate it when we would crank the old thing up when we were bored - I don't think she could stand the sound of Rutherford's voice either - both the phonograph and the records hit the burning barrel one day.
I have never been able to find out what one of the phonograph setups cost back in the day. I wonder how much it set back my grandparents limited income - they were homesteaders on a small 40 acre farm in rural Canada and they were not rich. The phonograph I played with was brown, not grey like the 'new and improved' phonograph player released at the St. Louis convention in 1941. It is rather hilarious that the 1941 notion of 'modern' was associated with the color grey - sort of like their new and improved Bibble just released this past year.
We had a box of the Rutherford books too. I read them all when I was far too young to understand the contents and had no idea what they were talking about - weird stuff. But I liked doing pencil rubbings off the covers. Those too, went into the burning barrel one day.
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Dear God, I'm not making fun of you, Jehovah, ...I just don't believe that you are the "True God" that wants dictating to me how I should believe when it comes to spiritual matters.
And so, dear Jehovah, get over yourself because you are no longer the most important thing in our life; and I want being someone that helps encourage others.
And so because I'm having fun before shutting down...I'm with many others that we do understand how hateful that religion is and yet we want just being kind to others without all the judgment.
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Yes, there seems to be a lot of hupla about the new jw.org brand name. My girls don't discuss anything jw with me, but I've seen enough posts, on facebook, cedars' blog, etc. to see all the hupla that is going on.
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Wave HiCathy.
I'm still uncertain as to how I can actually read their bullshit religious channel. Do I need doing this from On-line or will it actually be posted on cable television? I've checked into their one site but I often encounter problems when trying to find it on cable.
At any rate, we know they are the liars and I want talking notes for my research.
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Diane, I wasn't thinking at all that you were being condescending. No worries there : )
I too noted the color grey
It is rather hilarious that the 1941 notion of 'modern' was associated with the color grey - sort of like their new and improved Bibble just released this past year.
I like grey in certain color schemes but their bibble reminds me of my other association with grey.........dead things....lifeless things.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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Don't worry Dianne, I didn't take it as you being condescending. Nothing wrong with highlighting the important parts! smiley: wink
Thanks for digging up all these interesting things about the jdubs.
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Dianne ... the highlight bit jumped out at me and I'd have done the same! Don't even think any of us thought you were being condescending. If you were sitting with us in the same room ... you'd have emphasised the verbally to stand out ..... so you go girl!!!
Excellent info to read there too Researcher Dianne. I had to chuckle when I read the bit that said One advantage which entranced the friends was the book compartment ... .... as it's one of those 'the' moments for me. My parents have always said 'the friends' or 'one of the friends'. Never 'our friends' or 'one of our friends'. It's rather superior to whack a 'the' instead of 'our' .... or is that just me?
I imagine that back when the phonographs were used ... the householders were more than likely just excited with the novelty side of the machine itself rather than the message being delivered. Can you imagine anyone doorbanging that way now? They wouldn't even get up my driveway never mind knock on my door and set their little machines up! Mind you ... in saying that ... given the amount of technology taken into meetings, memorial services and conventions these days (check out your average jdubs bookface account!) ............... it wouldn't surprise me if the worldwide campaign effort wasn't put into hyper-drive mode by having mags and leaflets set out nicely on the iPad or tablet at the doors!!!! Blech
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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What was your worst
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status offlinemaksutov
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1moxjdub, it's like we're the same person, lol. Working on the sound desk was great - pressing buttons and turning dials is waaaay more interesting than listening to the meeting. Roving mics was fine as long as it wasn't the middle aisle. Reading the WT was ok - a little less boring, and you could put your hand up without being seen (so it looks like you tried to answer up, but you don't actually have to say anything). Actually taking the WT study was horrible though - very stressful. Giving public talks was easier. Translating talks was also fun (relatively speaking).
And when I was auxiliary pioneering, rural territory was a sanity saver. Start with a 'call' locally, then drive half an hour to the territory, do a few scattered 'not homes', talk to nobody, drive back, do another call close to home - 2 hours, no sweat.
Russ.
status offline1moxjdub
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I gave 3 public talks never conducted wt study I started to waver right before they started grooming me for the big E coronation in actuality I was wavering
since age 5 or 6 but I went through the motions climbing the ladder trying to make mommy proud I wish I had walked away years before I finally did but better late than never
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Mak at our hall when the WT reader raised their hand half the audience pointed at him so that the conductor would notice. No luck for the reader at our hall. Lol.
status offlineCee Cee
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I HATED Saturdays. It meant field service and the possibility of being shamed by having a door opened by one of my schoolmates' homes. [It never did happen, probably because we moved so often, but I sure lived in fear of that happening.]
I actually enjoyed Thursday night meetings because they were sort of interactive. Sunday's wasn't so bad either, 'cause I'd meet up with my friends at the KH. Tuesday bible study [Bible? HA! It was always some WT book.] was always a BIG bore.
Grandma Cee Cee
status offline1moxjdub
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CeeCee I have been there on a couple occasions makes you want to go run and crawl under the nearest rock and stay there. Yep Saturdays sucked. Sundays sucked worse
especially when mommy wanted to go out in service after the meeting. Are you fu&@ing kidding me???!!!!
status offlineBilly Sugger
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Rural witnessing was great in the summer,knock on the door....no one in....let's go round the back to see if they are in the garden....yes they are....naked......
Brill.
Ignited my love of naturism at an early age that did.
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
status offlinemaksutov
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Figuringitout20 wrote:
Mak at our hall when the WT reader raised their hand half the audience pointed at him so that the conductor would notice. No luck for the reader at our hall. Lol.
Lol, that's just cruel!
Russ.
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What was your worst
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offline1moxjdub
What was your worst
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Oct 17 14 2:29 PM
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Ok family and I hope I don't offend anyone by using the word Family referring to you but I really appreciate this support group. Nobody truly understands the life we led but
the folks on here that I talk to from time to time. It's been almost 20 years since my freedom and I've had a few conversations with close friends about my upbringing (the vast
majority have no idea and I simply don't talk about it) 2 main reasons are it's still even now a source of embarrasment for me to have once belonged to such a cult, and
secondly unless you were on the inside you will never ever understand. I just wish that someday we could all get together and talk face to face and share funny stories, horror
stories, laugh, in some cases cry (but not I) and pretty much listen and understand.
Ok so now that that's out of the way allow me to lighten this up a little. Question: What was your absolute worst day of the week?
It's a shame but looking back I pretty much dreaded every G.D. Day of the week to be perfectly honest. Here we go Sunday do I have to even say it?
Boring ass f*&k(ng talk by some barely literate "brother" talking about the same s*&t the same way he did 6 months ago. Followed by "new light from on high"
the wt study. New corrections, new rules, new doctrine whatever some holier than thou "brother" or "sister" going on and on and on bragging about all the research
they did this deal. Big f&ck*ng deal why don't you shut the f&^k up so we can get the hell out of here. And this ignorant fool on my left what the hell are you looking at
no I did not study my wt I don't have a damn thing underlined here look are you happy??? By the way every other year our meetings were at 1:00 PM which happened
to correspond to every football game that was worth watching that day.
Let's go to Monday the book study nope didn't study for that either. At the lovely elderly lady's home who always had the thermostat set to a comfortable
HOTTER THAN HELL!!! Studying the Revelation book for the hundredth time which is appropriate because I feel like I'm in the lake of fire right now. Tuesdays and Wednesdays
were supposed to be days off but not for me as I began to get more "priviledges" (priviledges my A@#) those days were invariably spent preparing another assignment
that would be mailed in.
Thursday another long night away from home #1 talk some 20 something year old virgin who's well on to bethel or gilead or congregation elder who acts
like he's already arrived. #2 talk some snot nosed kid reading some bs mommy wrote. #3 talk a couple of sisters with their only opportunity to be heard doing anything
resembling teaching but not in such a way that the "brothers" could believe for a minute that they were trying to tell them anything. Dont look at the audience OH GOD NO!
No sit (of course) and look at one another a one on one conversation that the rest of us just happen to overhear. I could go on and on but you get the idea. Hated Thursdays
Also on far too many Thursdays that I care to remember I had to stay back for a couple hours denying some new accusation against me. Yep hated Thursday.
Friday was OK somewhat because it was the last day at work however my weekend was already booked up the aformentioned dreadful
Sunday as well as a dreadful Saturday ruining another good pair of shoes walking up and down the street up and down the sidewalk trying to talk to people
who wish that we would just drop dead. I can truly say that I have more good shoes right now than I ever had in my life. Now a good pair of shoes will last me for
years. But anyway Saturday was knock knock "please don't come to the door, please don't come to the door" sound of deadbolt unlocking "FU*K!!!!" Hi my name
is blah blah blah and I'm here to blah blah blah have you ever wondered blah blah blah. Oh you have your own religion you say? That's good we're not here to
try to change your religion. BIG ASS LIE!!!! We're just trying to encourage Bible reading. ANOTHER BIG ASS LIE!!! It's Ok that you use your own translation. ANOTHER BIG ASS LIE!!!
Yep hated Saturdays too.
So in conclusion friends-(haven't said that in almost 20 years) every day was pretty much a nightmare. I don't have a worst day they were all terrible.
status offlineKefka6
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Oooh i can tell im going to like this thread, anyway.
ok so for me the .meeting day is tuesday, then saturday morning and sunday, heres why
tuesday "yes brother xxxxxxxx my family is ok, yes I'll tell them you said hello, even though you have their phone number and you can do it yourself. Hi sister xxxxxxxxx oh im fi..... oh you already walked away, alright. i have the microphones??? Dammit. Boring song book is boring. Book study using a book that we've already studied five times, and pretending that we care. No brother, i will not pretend that i am paying attention i have ran out of f*#ks to give. Oh my god the guy reading the bible is atrocious, is he illiterate?? No that cant be he graduated high school. yes young 20 something sister please tell us how to be celibate, even though we all know that you're pretty freaky on the sheets. hey there young brother, what are you gonna talk about, homosexuality, I'm sure you'll do great, and it'll obviously not be filled with self loading and projection (which is a shame since you're kinda cute). Oh god why is the closing prayer so long, i didn't know this was another speech.
saturday morning, " what time is it??? Seven? screw this im going back to sleep. Don't open the door dont open the door dont open the door, oh thank Zordon. Oh no brother, im sorry but im busy having a life. So i can't join you with your bible study that will eventually go nowhere.
sunday. hi brother that ive never met before, giving the speech, so you say that because the chinese character for boat has the words flood in it, it means that the flood actually happened, and that the only logical way for it to occur is if there were oceans in heaven that fell down and came to earth!!! Wow brother, thats amazing!!! * starts dialing number for a psych ward*. Watchtower makes unbeliavable claim... how do you know that, where is the evidence, the report, a pie chart, anything that can make it seem that you didnt pull this information out of your ass. No, ok. Oh god the closing prayer yes you already thanked everybody in the organization how long is this gonna take, and stop using so many adjectives youre making me hate them.
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Haha! The sisters who can only sit facing each other while the audience eavesdrops and yes the prayer conclusions that contain every possible "great, wonderous, loving, praiseworthy" adjective out there. My least favorite days were always meeting days.
The self righteous 20 year olds holding the mikes would always stare down at my Watchtower disapprovingly if I didn't have it underlined. I'd also get glares from my parents. So, I'd often end up trying to sneak underlining in during the Watchtower study to give the appearance I'd done it ahead of time. I couldn't actually bring myself to read it ahead of time as it was so boring. I also remember hoping so bad that no one would answer the door when I knocked and if they did answer I hoped they'd immediately say they weren't interested and let me off the hook from my spiel.
I never ever enjoyed the meetings. They were a chore I had to do. There were a few older sisters who used to comment at every meeting what a joy it was to be there. I think they must've been awfully lonely with nothing else to do. I wonder how many JWs actually feel like it's a joy to be there? I liked getting together with people after the meeting and I liked coffee breaks during service. The meetings and service were just things to get over with.
status offlineCacky
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Oct 18 14 4:35 AM
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These comments are funny!
status offline1moxjdub
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How about Mr 30 something elder with the smoking hot wife giving a local needs talk about young people and sex and waiting and self control and perhaps even remaining single in order to serve where the need
is great or go to bethel or gilead or pioneering your young little ass off. Yeah yeah yeah whatever......But you know what the guy is kind of a pretty good speaker he made some pretty good points I guess I'll let
him know I enjoyed his little talk there (not really but I'll tell him anyway) right after the song and prayer. Amen ok where is he??? Well I'll be damned he's gone already....Must be some type of emergency
what's that??? Smoking hot wife is pregnant again??? Wow 5 kids that's amazing. But Mr 30 something is such a great guy isnt he I'm going to take all these notes I took and go home and beat my....I mean
meditate on all this great information.
Next Thursday is another fantastic local needs talk by Brother I got my own business I'm in my 60's living the good life. No worries no cares but you poor bastards need to simplify your lives
just be content with the basic nessecities of life. Stop stressing about money do more in the service get a job cleaning houses so that you can pioneer. Better yet clean my house its huge it will keep you
too busy to get in trouble. And remember that new system is right around the corner it will be here soon. How soon?? Who gives a Fuck I got everything I could ever want ri....oops sooner than you
think young brother keep up the good work.
WHY is sister homely looking at me like that?? I know you are getting up there in age (what are you about 30?) and would like to get married soon but I just can't help you on that one.
I wonder if Mr 30 something's wife has a sister.
UH OH here comes brother law and order with that huge briefcase filled with evidence. Uh hello good and yourself? Great. Tonight? Sure I guess I could hang around for a few minutes.
To myself: Ok what do they have on me now?? Who's the star witness in this one? Can I lie myself out of another jam?? We shall soon see.
status offlinecangie
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I will never forget a talk where the speaker criticized members of the congregation for "saving up 10 thousand dollars and running off to (a nearby state) to buy homes and get out of the area." Uh, YEAH! Look around, "brother"! You live in an urban community (ghetto, for all who are not familiar) with it's usual problems---drugs, depressing landscape, exorbitant rents to live in a dump, police attitudes that ranged from apathetic to downright abusive, crime of every sort, many JW's living in the "projects"... and you think everyone should work crappy jobs and remain there to pioneer! It pissed me off because I didn't think what others' did was either his right to judge OR his business, and to say it from the podium made it sound like an "edict from god." It always annoyed me when speakers used talks to promote THEIR opinions on health, child-rearing, marriage issues, finances, relationships with others...etc smiley: mad
Last Edited By: cangie Oct 18 14 7:50 PM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineCacky
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Sundays were my worst. I always felt, when I believed the Bible, that God created the Sabbath for a reason and felt we should have one day where we didn't have to do anything, and Sundays always seemed like they should be that day. It was always hard, making breakfast and getting us all (five kids) dressed and ready for the two hour meeting. It took up so much of the day and your day was gone before you knew it. It was cooking, dressing, meetings, maybe service, then back home to cook again when you still had breakfast dishes to do. Now Sundays are what I call my do-nothing days.
status offlineJourney
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The thing I did not like the most was when we were supposed to shun people, even people trying to get back into the org. It would annoy me so much that I'd go out of my way to talk to them. But not in front of other people. I just couldn't stand the cruel snubbing and just could not do it.
I didn't like when one of the men became an elder and his wife suddenly became Mrs. Elder. She got really bossy and self important. LOL
I can still get angry that the most danger one of my sons was in during a year or so of high school was another JW kid. That kid tried to sell my son drugs, then threatened to kill him. I've always said, you don't mess with a mama bear's cub. I became a raging superwoman. I kid you not. I bet I was 9 feet tall holding lightning bolts in my bare hands and roaring out my words so loud that no one within 3 miles of our house would ever mess with my kids. :D
No really, what I did was call his very apologetic mother and blasted her. I did not wimp out when she got all sorry and telling me her problems. This was my kid her kid had threatened, and no, no excuses. I wanted her to control him.
THEN I called an elder on the phone and I was yelling at him. I was telling him in no uncertain terms that my children were NOT going to be threatened and I wanted to know what he was going to do about it (since he'd caused part of the problem). I don't even remember what he said except that he pretty much was speaking rather humbly and felt bad this had all happened. But he took no responsibility. I WAS FURIOUS. Just always remember that. Do not mess with a mama bear's cubs.
Oh, and I called the police, a policeman in the neighborhood who took down the info from me, and gave me some very good practical tips for covering our backsides and protecting our son.
Excuse me, that was a long time ago, but I still remember the protective fury I felt. Hey, I am going to draw a picture of that. Don't mess with Mama's cubs!
Journey
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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I was never a fan of the Tuesday night book study. Why? Because I was stuck in a small group of people in the house of someone considered 'spiritually strong' ... and they knew it. Given the local elders had a massive dislike for my dad and added my mum to the equation too ... my siblings and I were of the 'spiritually weak be careful of them or they'll drag you out of the truth' set. I say that because one of the elders said that to me after I asked him politely to stop taking his frustration and jealousy out on my dad!
Parental angst to one side .... Tuesday night book studies were really boring. You were expected to have visible lines in whatever book it was ... so the group study leader would know you had pre-studied. Not judgmental ... much! You were also expected to raise your hand and make answers .... which I hated doing. Most times I didn't get picked ... so I'd stop raising my hand for a while ...... then would be chatted to about joining in more, how Jehovah loved to hear my answers blah blah bullshit bullshit. I wanted to stop going to all things jdub related when I was 12 ..... it was a long six years until I could put that desire into action.
Tuesday night book studies also meant you were watched very closely ... by everyone. I remember being one of those teenagers who used to blush at the drop of a hat. Some of the dubbies would take that as a sign that I was guilty about something ... or embarrassed ....... most times I was just cross at being targeted. We all know the elder who calls your name out purely out of spite and because he knows at that moment in time you were elsewhere! I no longer blush and haven't for years ..... but then I'm not sweet and innocent anymore either!!!!!
Another thing that I didn't like at all ..... was the shunning thing too Janet. It is a despicable practice and is akin to family and domestic violence. Isolate. Humiliate. Punish. Disgusting stuff!
Great thread!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Omg I hated commenting! I would get scolded by my dad every meeting that I didn't comment. It was dumb to just read text that had just been read to you (which many commenters did) and it wasn't acceptable to share a differing opinion. Nor did I want to share a personal story with everyone. So, my comments were simply a reprase of the text in "my own words". Brainless responses basically just to affirm belief in every word written in the Watchtower.
I also dreaded being in the Theocratic Ministry School. I actually wished I still had notes from some of the talks I wrote. I'm sure the witnessing scenarios I came up with to discuss with the sister sitting across from me were ridiculous. The HH would have questions/doubts and by the end of the 5 minute talk would be completely convinced. :/
Last Edited By: Figuringitout20 7 days ago. Edited 1 times.
status offline1moxjdub
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Remember how being opinionated was frowned upon so much? Having an opinion that didn't correspond directly with what was printed in the wt magazine meant that you were unholy unchristian and needing to be stopped. Unless of course you were an elder and in that case your personal opinions about what type of jobs people should work where they should live who they should date whether or not to pursue higher education as a means to better support yourself all of that was to be viewed as gospel. Yeah whatever
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Back to the meetings I used to like to carry the mics during the wt study it used to be a welcome diversion from the mundane boring garbage that was taking place during the meeting. Time used to go by a little quicker
since I was busy walking up and down the isle to the same half dozen people. Why don't they all just sit on the same row that would have made my life a little easier. But anyway anything was better than sitting there
bored to death.
I also used to read the wt paragraphs from the platform on occasion. On those occasions you needed to make sure you studied the wt or at least underlined some stuff since your wt was going to be in plain sight of
the entire audience. I found that a yellow highlighter worked best. LOL! I remember showing up at the hall one Sunday and the wt conductor approached me and said brother-whoever- couldn't be there and would I
mind reading the wt today. "SHIT I hadn't even looked at the damn thing" Sure no problem. I could feel the stares of disaproval as I was up there reading my brand spanking new, never been touched until this
moment wt article. After the meeting an elder approached me and told me half jokingly (but we both knew he was serious) that he couldn't help but notice that I did not study my wt. I said KISS MY ASS!!! to
myself of course. Ahh such fond memories.
status offlineCeili
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smiley: laughsmiley: laughsmiley: laugh those posts are soooo funny! Guess it didn't feel funny at the time though...
Ceili xx
status offlineKefka6
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I actually had a love hate relationship, at least they made the meeting go faster but, the guy at the podium didnt help me at all,
Oh yes brother that sits at the very first row go ahead and comment , and then can you go to the very back of the hall i think one of the elders thats over there B.Sing pretending to be doing something important has an irrelevent tangent that he want to go off on . And if you can get there in .3 seconds tha'll be great.
oh another anoying thing was that in my hall there was this real big family, lets call them family x, the guy at the podium would always say yes sister x do you have something to say, and i would always look at him like which one theres like five of them.
and finally whenever I was forced to go to field service i would always get stuck with the brother that had absoutely no tact, and would keep talking in run off sentences, whle it was obvious that the poor shmuck who opened the door was simply to polite to tell him to GTFO
status offline1moxjdub
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I remember being out in service one Saturday morning we were driving and the car we were riding in was a large enough car I think it was a thunderbird if you remember those from the late eightees or early nineties but it was 2 door so of course the person in the back had to fold the seat up to climb out in the car with us was a ms who I couldn't stand. After we got back to the meeting place he got out of the car and said to the driver would you like some information on where you can find a nice 4 door car. The driver looked flabbergasted and said no i don't need a new car. I thought to myself what an a#!h@le
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Ceili .... it is all rather funny isn't it.
When the whole 'let's run around from one end of the hall to the other carrying a long broom stick with a microphone strapped on the end of it' thing came in .... the younger 'brothers' were excited and of course the younger 'sisters' just rolled their eyes and went with the patriarchal 'only brothers can do this' thing. None of my brothers were offered a go on the mics ... obviously because they were not 'in good standing' and of course my dad was 'spiritually weak'. Just for fun I asked an elder why girls couldn't do the mics ...... apparently it was because 'women are the weaker vessels and it is not modest for a woman to lean across the brothers and sisters'. Yes ... okay ... BUT ... why not? Haha! It certainly didn't stop the 'brothers' from looking down the TOPS of the 'sisters' as they reached across with their broom stick!!!!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offline1moxjdub
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Andria you really didn't miss much I was excited about the whole thing for about 5 minutes as a young go getter. It really became kind of a chore the mics had the damn long chords that would always end up
getting tangled up. I absolutely hated reaching over people. And you always got annoyed looks if you didn't decide to retreat all the way to the back if you stopped in the middle now some extra spiritual
disciple could not see the person on the stage. They went to the cordless mics shortly before my exodus that made things a little easier but overall it was just something to do to keep from being bored to death.
I actually preferred running the sound box that was a little better don't really remember now why I liked it better just did.
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Once I was sick for about a month as a kid. Which, you know, was viewed as just awful because look at how many "encouraging" meetings I was going to miss (secretly I was jumping for joy). So, the hall had the wonderful idea of having me call in to listen in over the phone. I can't remember if they would call me or I would call them, but I remember having the phone laying by my bed for Sunday morning meetings. Or course, I didn't listen to a word of it, but I still got "credit" for attending the meeting. The only time I would listen in was at song time, For some reason at song time the phone would only pick up the voice of the brother standing by the sound system. I guess it had something to do with turning off the mike for the speaker and switching it so I could "enjoy" the taped music. Instead of music, what I got was the voice of this one brother singing. And he was always busy doing some duties in the back, so he would only sing every 5th word or so of each song and he had the worst out of tune singing voice. It would strike me really funny. So, I would just listen in to that part just for a little laugh, and then go back to the tv show I was watching :). Thank goodness I never got quizzed about the meetings I "attended".
Brothers did always have many opportunities to get out of their seats for brotherly duties, which gave a little break from the monotony. Sisters had to sit in their seats like good little women. We weren't even supposed to get up to use the bathroom. Heaven forbid one needed a break from sitting still! Remember the talks about if you don't need to get up at home to use the bathroom during a two-hour movie at home, then you don't need to get up to use the bathroom at the hall during a meeting? We regularly had talks about staying put in our seats.
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Isn't it amazing the absolute crap we endured as young witnesses. Man it boggles the mind they want to regulate every aspect of your life don't they. 5 weekly meetings you have to attend no excuses. Even if you are bed
ridden for a month Oh Joy! We found a way for you to "enjoy" the meetings. Whatever. I'm sure that was the furthest thing from your mind. What child wants to go to a Kingdom Hall and be forced to sit and listen to this
stuff 3 days a week. That is pure torture and I and most of you endured it from childhood on. Whoever made up all these rules needs a swift kick in the ass!!
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Ha! I remember the cords getting tangled and one of the young 'brothers' would blush a deep crimson colour every time he was supposed to whack the mic in front of a young single 'sister'. I'm sure he's still single and he's my age ... 52! I could be wrong ... must check that out for pure entertainment value of course. Good on him if he's still a virgin at 52 though! Imagine how much fun someone would have 'breaking' him in!!!! Not me ... I've been there done that in the past!!!!
Now where was I .... distracted myself AGAIN! Oh yes .... the mic thing. Perhaps you preferred the sound jobbie because you didn't have to wander up and down the aisles trying to get there on time without getting withering looks from the platform speaker and the speaker who had their bum on the chair!!!!! One of those 'out of sight out of mind' type jobs I guess.
Figgy ..... you could have knocked me over with a feather when my mum very proudly told me a few years back that it was okay that she didn't attend a meeting when she wasn't feeling well ... because 'the brothers' had 'given' her 'permission' to call the hall number and listen via the phone! I remember going 'ewwww ... why would you do that?'! Didn't go down well at all ... but I just couldn't have thought of anything worse than not feeling well ... and yet still having that crap blasting in my room (speaker phone)! Blech!
Now here's a 'worst' that just sprung to mind Mox ...... 'rural witnessing'. The all-day type where you all pile into a car in your Sunday best ... and go out door banging in rural areas. That meant NO TOILETS! I didn't like that as I am not one to 'squat my bott' in the bush! I didn't go rural door banging often I can tell you. Having to take turns opening/shutting property gates ...... running the risk of dogs coming out of nowhere at the farm house ... or worse ... COWS! Still makes me shudder. I'm so NOT a country girl ... despite living in a country town!!!!!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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OH NO!!! Andria I have to strongly disagree with you on that one. Rural witnessing was the absolute best. I was residing in a city/suburb kind of so your normal blocks with houses and houses and houses in a row
you have to knock on every door you could do 20 houses or more and look at your watch and it's 10:15. F&(K!!!! Give me a rural territory any day it was all about killing time with me so we have a 5 mile road with
only 2 houses on it one of them is about a half mile off the road we have to drive all the way down the driveway get out walk around the house woops wrong side lets try the other side ok ok here it is no home ok
back in the car turn around leave long drive way on to the next house at the end of the street wheres the driveway i think we past it turn around is it abandoned not sure i see smoke oh wait this is the old farm house
the new house is wayyy back there on the hill up there we have to drive up there get out walk to door short speil no thanks back in car leave the street 2 houses 45 minutes!! What's that you have to use the restroom?
I think there's a gas station about 15 minutes up the road let's go there no here is where you choosing to go with some like minded friends pays off brother or sister zealous would say we have to stop our time
while we make this bathroom run for me the clock is always running. Rural territories was a time burner and I preferred it. Sometimes you could actually do 2 hours and not talk to a soul.
As far as the mics went I was kind of a slow walker people used to kid me a little but I had a tremendous fear of my feet getting tangled up in those chords and me busting my ass in the middle of the aisle
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Ringlys for the Governing Body
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offlinebirdwoman2
Ringlys for the Governing Body
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A post on jwtalk claims that the rings the Governing Body are flashing are 'Ringlys' - rings that you wear that vibrate for notifications from apps and for meeting reminders. Apparently, the ringlys flash light too. Maybe that is why they appear so 'flashy'.
https://ringly.com/
Posted Image
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"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
- Frederic Bastiat
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 2 days ago. Edited 1 time.
status offlinehalf banana
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Just as Jesus said “Don’t go out without your Ringly”.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status onlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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I find this too funny to even investigate!
status offlineCee Cee
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One hundred and ninety five dollars? [$195.00 USD] Isn't that a weekly wage for a JW?
I don't care what they say, I'm not giving up my iPhone.
Cee Cee
status onlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Cee Cee, that was funny. And to think years ago I didn't appreciate your humor. Just goes to show the more we help each other, the more we understand the sickness of the JW religion and move forward into something kinder because we have come to understand that love is more important then shunning.
BalloonsBubble bath Lin.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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...... it's just TOO funny to even contemplate! Ringlys? Goodness me ... why don't they just don vibrating undies instead. As least they could have their balls tickled for every notification. They wouldn't be able to sit still! smiley: roll
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Forced witness teens
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offlineArcticfox
Forced witness teens
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Mar 15 14 4:52 PM
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Are there any other witness teens out there in hiding? I've been looking for someone to talk to that's kind of like me, maybe and a new Facebook friend or something?
status offlineLocutus
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Welcome Arcticfox.
I was a forced witness teen too, a long time ago now. ' Someone to talk to' is much easier to find now, due to internet.
Just a thought: set up an alter ego for this on FB and be careful to not let your people mix up on there. If you know what I mean…
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This is what I don't understand about FaceBook or the Internet in general.
Why should we continue hiding behind something - living in fear that someone might know who we are? I thought it was for finding the courage to speak out - knowing we will lose loved ones for being true to ourselves.
I'm hardly the teenager at aged 62 but I want encourage them for speaking and not play into this stupid political correctness going on in the USA rhetoric for control.
IMO, this is what happens, don't speak, don't think for yourself...just let them tell you how it going to play; sorta' like a chess game.
BTW - helloand welcome to our site of loving personsThrow heart kisses
If you stick around, you will learn how it plays with us. Ronnie, the owner of this site and his mod's won't allow others to disrupte any conversation for long. So, I feel safe coming and sharing my sorrows and joys and finding humor.
You have a life time ahead of you...and it's always important for when we have new members that will continue sharing...even with us old farts because we continue learning too.
Stay strong and keep posting...Lin
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If this is a teenager, he/she doesn't have any choice to speak out if the parents are making him be a jw. Articfox, there have been other teens in your position who have posted on here within the past year. I don't know if they're still around to see your post, hopefully so. And there are many on here who had to fake it as you are having to do, but they are grown now and have come out about it. I hope you find some your age to communicate with. Stick around, there are plenty of others on here who were once in your shoes who can also help encourage you.
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One more thing, if you are not baptized, try to avoid it if possible. Just say you want to make sure you are fully mature before making such a life long decision or something like that. But something tells me you are already baptized. If not, not doing so will help you when you do decide to leave, as at least they won't be able to df you.
status onlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Cacky - When we remember some of the other stories posted; having been teen's when they stood up for themselves - they didn't have to wait for permission for finding they didn't want being a member in the Holy-of Holy, JW Church.
Yes, some of us were/are DF because of having been baptised but now we can find recovery; we all share our experiences from different viewpoints.
Of course we would only hope the best for this young person...
Cacky- Stay of good cheersmiley: grin. Lin
status offlineBilly Sugger
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I was a teenager once...........still am inside, it's just the outside lets me down now and again. We all have a font of knowledge Arcticfox....feel free to tap into that.
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
status offlinethehappygoat
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Welcome Fox!
There are many teens here. Hope they will come out! I hope you're doing okay and keeping your head down low. Let us know what we can help you with.
Valerie
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Hey dude I'm 24, I've been floating around here since I was like 19 or 20. Due to your recent membership on this board, I would prefer to keep our contact here for now if you wish to reach out to me. I am a fader from a family that is well known locally so I have to be careful with newer members.
I was a very unhappy Witness teen, always knew something was wrong, couldn't disprove it to myself until college. Once I did the walls came tumbling down in no time. Feel free to PM me. And don't let being young discourage you from talking to the older members here, some left around our age and others didn't but they all have a wealth of great advice on all things JW. They can help you find the right path out.
-Dave
“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy.' They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
- John Lennon
Last Edited By: SwingLifeAway Mar 17 14 9:46 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Hi there Fox ........ and welcome.
You're always welcome to finger chat in here about how you're feeling ... what you're going through etc. Just remember to keep the highly personal things close to your chest as you don't want to identify yourself to any of the goodie-two-shoe types who may be lurking about looking to get someone in trouble. We're pretty protective of our members though ..............
Tim's (Locutus) suggestion to make up another name for a Facebook account is a wise idea too ....... you don't need someone to be reading your info online and then go off and tell your parents or the elders. Keep researching ... keep reading ... and if you decide it's all too much and you want out permanently ... then plan your move first and keep as calm as you can. If you're not baptised .... DON'T do it! If anyone is trying to push you into baptism .... just quietly tell them that you're sorting things out with Jehovah and will ask for their help if you need it. That should buy you some time.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineDana
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Hello there Arcticfox.
I'm a..late teen, if you want smiley: tongue(20), I was a forced (well, half forced, half over conscientious about my duty) teen witness, living a double life, always hiding. Like SwingLifeAway, I too faded (2 years ago) and I am from a very well known and prominent Jdub family in my area. But, since I'm from another part of the world (than UK and USA), I don't worry we have friends in common that might recognise me or anything like that...
Still, I won't post my name or facebook link here (better to be safe than sorry), but do feel free to send me a private message and...maybe I can help you smiley: smile Share my wisdomsmiley: pimp Just kidding, but still, I was told I'm a good listener (well, reader in this virtual situationssmiley: laugh).
Anyway, welcome to this forum!! smiley: happy I was a very sad, perplexed, alone teen, with my universe crumbling in front of my eyes, when I first found it, and I can tell you it helped me A LOT coming here (even though I was just reading, not getting involved in the conversations very much). Learning about everyone's story and experiences, and seeing their points of view, helped me so much in dealing with my own problems. And after all that fading process, and losing almost everyone, coming to this forum felt like home. So, maybe it will help you too the same way (or any another way, as long as it helps).smiley: happy
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Ya' know Missy Andria...this is the sort of stuff that keeps me pissed off with the JW's. Can they or cannot read the Internet? Is it always about how they can spy: doing research for helping their religion when not many really like them.
Does it go back to how they are so chosen; better than every one else...We know "They suffer more"! Really. We all talk with different people each day and we can hear stories of suffering from those that don't hold to any religion.
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We should have a cool kids club here. :P
-Dave
“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy.' They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
- John Lennon
Last Edited By: SwingLifeAway Mar 19 14 6:20 AM. Edited 1 times.
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It gets better, live the 'double life' until you can escape. Took me until I was 20 to do it, but was worth the wait. Get a job, save some money, make friends on the side who will help you through the first few months, ( the hard times).. There is much more to life than the 'borg'
You can do it.
status offlineBelle
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I'm retro. Sorry. Left and never looked back. There is this start-up blog I found on WordPress though. It's run by a sixteen-year-old apostate who goes under the name Joelle. I doubt that's her real name. She posts every week I believe. She goes on a more emotional level of being an apostate and doesn't necessarily dwell on "Why the Jehovah Witnesses's are wrong." like other blogs. She's more of "The Witnesses are wrong. Here's how I feel."
Anywho,
http://theclosetapostate.wordpress.com/
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Welcome Arctic Fox. I totally understand your need/desire for being in hiding. I haven't been a teen for many years, but I'm still young at heart :). This is a great forum for support and advice regardless of age. There are a few teenagers that occasionally post here. This is a good forum to stick around. In addition, the suggestion about Facebook is good. There are a lot of teens on FB Ex JW groups.
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Halloween and other scary things!!!!
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Halloween and other scary things!!!!
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Yes, it's a favorite holiday now. This will be my third year dressing up. I just bought a bunch of lights and decorations to put out on our apt balcony! So excited! The cool thing about this year is that we're partying with a group of ex-JW friends! We just might go trick-or-treating, which none of us have done before, AND it'll be my brother's first time dressing up! So proud of him.
I used to get so scared that if I dressed up or went to look at costumes that Jehovah wouldn't protect me from supernatural forces and such. My, how things have changed. It's still difficult for me to embrace things like this, considering what we were taught to believe about demons and evil spirits growing up. It still gives me anxiety. But that's also due to my severe OCD, so it's just something I have to work thru. I still have trouble watching scary movies!
Also, has anybody seen Annabelle yet? I heard it was crazy scary. Apparently the subject matter has something to do with demons and spirits being attached to dolls and other such inanimate objects. That reminds me of the garage sale/thrift store thing. You don't want to take a ghost home with you! Needless to say, I probably won't be seeing that movie. I'm not quite comfortable enough with they kind of subject matter yet. I tried to explain it to my boyfriend, and he kind of understood, or at least pretended to, but you know you don't really understand how deeply it can be etched into your brain until you've experienced it first hand.
I got off on a tangent there... So, what's everybody dressing up as? Or dressing your kids up as? My man and I have gotten hooked on Doctor Who, so he's going as The Doctor, and I'm his Tardis.
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
status onlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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You just have fun and enjoy the holiday!
And don't let those demons and other thing intruded into your home because it's all something the WTBTS teachs and we know they are full of shit.
As for scary movies...I'm more into the forencies of murder. [misspelled but too tired to look up the word.]
I'm preparing for the holiday season and enjoying every moment..
I thank you for being one of us that contribute. LIN
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Have fun!
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Have fun Somebody!! And some pics would be nice smiley: smile
I'm so glad that you are facing things head on, in spite of your misgivings.............thats the only way to re-train your jw mind.......get out there and just do it!!! One day you will look back and find it hard to remember those feelings of apprehension.......your building up your 'immune system' to all jw bugs smiley: laugh xxx
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Good for you Somebody!
Aussies aren't as Halloween oriented as you northerners ... although there are a few stores with decorations out. Never seems to take off here ... we think of it as being an American celebration more than anything.
You should definitely go Trick or Treating ........... you'll be able to start making up for all those nights you missed as a child. We're Whovians in our house too ........
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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I'll definitely post pics! Unfortunately our faces will probably be blacked out. Still have to stay under the radar.
Rhon, we're obsessed. Glad to know you've got good taste in television.
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
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You can take photos from the neck down in true Halloween style Wonderful Somebody! Now THAT would be a hoot!!!
I've been watching The Doctor since I was a little girl. A lot of fellow jdub kids were not allowed to watch it at their house ... but our parents really liked it and it was the highlight of our weekend. Except when 'the brothers' changed the bloody meeting times from morning to evening on a Sunday! Grrrrrr ...... I remember being very cross about that as we used to watch our ABC TV's music show "Countdown" and then Dr Who afterward! Ahh ... those were the days.
Here's something Whovian for you .............. my older jdub bro is still into watching Dr Who too (he does what we do and catch up on iView if we fall behind!) ..... and in his new house, he turned my nephew's wardrobe into half a Tardis! It looks brilliant (only seen photos though) ....... the door to the wardrobe is the main door to the Tardis ... same colour, windows and the Police Box sign is going on soon. I'd love to do that for my boys but we have different shaped wardrobes for them. If this was our house ..... I'd have already changed the front door into a Tardis front door!!!!!!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Ahhhh that's fantastic!! I'm actually working on my Tardis dress as we speak! Who's your favorite doctor?
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
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Did someone say Halloween?
Aw, yes, Halloween is my favorite holiday! I love getting dressed up as someone else.
I know how to sew so I make my girl's costumes every year.
It's a chance for me to be creative and I love it!
Here is the Miss Piggy costume I made for my daughter Karen a couple of years ago.
3bb36816171bbad403e18e3fc8bee37146898437
And my "candy girl" costume I made by gluing candy onto a dress.
e92264519cba60cf8d8c41edfd18d55cdb8d82bf
I'm not sure what I'm going as this year. Usually my boyfriend and I get dressed up and
go to some kind of Halloween party, but this year my boyfriend's job situation is kind of in the air right now,
so we're being cautious with our money right now.
I don't know much about the Dr. Who series, so you'll have to post pictures,
you can post them in the Free and Clear section so you don't have to black out your faces.
As far as that movie Annabelle goes, do you know I can't even stand to watch the commercial?
That's a big hangover from being raised up as a JW. I can't watch scary movies either, or even the movie trailers.
I know it's just a movie, but I can't help being scared.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/179443/working_mom.html
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... hmmmm ... my favourite Doctor? #9 [-]
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nobodyknows wrote:
Ahhhh that's fantastic!! I'm actually working on my Tardis dress as we speak! Who's your favorite doctor?
............ that's a toughie Wonderful Somebody. My favourite? I used to love Tom Baker and his ultra long scarf and slightly boggly eyes ........ but then when David Tennant came along ..... he became my favourite plus being cute didn't do him any harm as The Doctor. I wasn't overly keen on Matt Smith's Doctor however he played him well and he kind of became the funny Doctor in many ways. Peter Capaldi aka the latest Doctor ... is growing on me. It is odd though to see him playing a character that doesn't let rip with the f-word every two minutes!!!! Have fun with the Tardis dress!
Mel ... Karen's costume is just adorable and you looked amazing, as always! You shouldn't get upset when people undercut your age ....... you should embrace the compliments as it's true ... there's no way you look old enough to have a Karen or an Amber!!!!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Palm, nice seeing you posting again.
Halloween is one of my favorite holidays too...although I enjoy all of them and it's just the first in the fall season.
I always ask parents if it's ok for giving fruit rather than candy and it's a positive.
Guess it's going to be time for bringing out Michael Jackson's "Thriller" music. How many remember that Boris Karloff had a part in that music?
I'm ready...and no one will take that joy from me. LIN
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Mel, those costumes are so cute! I enjoy making my own too. 2 years ago I made a Black Widow (Avengers, not the spider) costume, gun holsters and all! Turned out pretty sweet. I have a hard time watching those trailers as well. Sometimes I'll be playing a fame on my phone and one will pop up in an ad. I'm like, "Ahhhh!" *throws phone far far away* lol.
Lin, tis the season! Be joyful!
Rhon, David Tennant is my FAVE. He's precious. I didn't care for Matt Smith at first, but he grew on me. I was introduced to the new doctor at the finale of last season, but I haven't seen any of the new season yet, so no spoilers! P.S. My beau just bought a sonic screwdriver at a novelty store for his costume. He's a keeper!
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
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Dr Who. Now you're talking. I watched it from the very first episode with my dad when I was knee high. My mum's cousin appeared in a couple of the old ones too. The new Doctor is very interesting and the sub plots too. I found the Matt Smith episodes were trying to be too clever and quirky. You'll enjoy the new Doctor Who stories. As usual, some better than others.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
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nobodyknows wrote:
Also, has anybody seen Annabelle yet? I heard it was crazy scary. Apparently the subject matter has something to do with demons and spirits being attached to dolls and other such inanimate objects. That reminds me of the garage sale/thrift store thing. You don't want to take a ghost home with you! Needless to say, I probably won't be seeing that movie. I'm not quite comfortable enough with they kind of subject matter yet. I tried to explain it to my boyfriend, and he kind of understood, or at least pretended to, but you know you don't really understand how deeply it can be etched into your brain until you've experienced it first hand.
This year im going to go to my first halloween party, and im going as either a red lantern, ( cause im a geek), or as freddy kreuger , im super exited . And i saw annabelle, unfortunately it wasnt really scary at all:/ which im suprised since i already had some low expectations of it.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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I will never give away spoilers to anything Wonderful Somebody ..... it just wouldn't be fair. All I will say is that the new Doctor ... will grow on you too!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Have you ever thought about it Pt.2
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offline1moxjdub
Have you ever thought about it Pt.2
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Sep 9 14 5:44 PM
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So I posted a topic about some questions I always had on a doctrinal matter concerning "the new system". Here's another problem I always had: I always
had a problem understanding why just because I was born when I was I had to have a much much harder time "getting in" as anyone else in the earths history.
What I mean by that is this What would I have had to do to get in if I was still trying to get in? Go to all the meetings, comment at all the meetings, study
the watchtower before the watchtower study, underline the answers-same with the book study. Read the magazines cover to cover as soon as they hit the
mailbox, give talks, go out in field service, witness at work, study with the family every week, don't pursue wordly endeavors, don't go to college, get a job
cleaning houses if you can so you could pioneer, don't think about women or sex or money, don't enjoy sports, marry the first woman you ask out on a date,
if you slip up tell on yourself, if you see someone else slip up tell on them, go to assemblies, conventions, I'm sure I'm missing something but you get the idea.
Very very hard and after doing all of that there's still no guarantee if you believe the doctrine because you could slip up at any time and miss out. 30-40 years
doing all the above and more maybe 6 months of inactivity and if its the wrong 6 months you are doomed like the rest of them.
However someone who was born maybe 50 years before me could have been 25 times worse of a person than I am pursues a life of fornication, greed,
debauchery, idol worship, maybe even killed a couple people along the way, lives to an age of about 90 95-good life dies gets resurrected and has a clean
slate, while you are doing all you can to get there and perhaps still fall short. I always thought that was incredibly, incredibly unfair.
I always wondered what would happen if one day there's some "new light" on the matter and there is a groundbreaking Watchtower study article entitled
"millions now living are all going to die" and in that article the Society says woops sorry we were wrong about the whole cronology thing and instead of the
end definitely being in this generation we now know that the last days will last several hundred years. So go ahead and continue doing what you're doing
live the life you've been living warn as many people as you can but the big A will not be in this century as we originally thought. You will still die on this
side and await a resurrection. How many folks would stay in the fold? How many would immediately go out and find what really makes them happy. They
will tell you in a minute that they are already happy doing what they are doing but we all know that's bs. Even if the Society would ever somehow
come to that conclusion they would never ever tell the masses because they know it would end the entire operation.
status offlineCee Cee
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Sep 9 14 7:31 PM
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Your list is spot on. These are the things it takes to be a Jehovah's Witness 'in good standing' and they are the only people who, according to the Watchtower, will be allowed to live through Armageddon and into the New System of Things.
1. "Go to all the meetings,
2. comment at all the meetings,
3. study the watchtower before the watchtower study,
4. underline the answers-same with the book study.
5. Read the magazines cover to cover as soon as they hit the mailbox,
6. give talks,
7. go out in field service [conduct bible studies],
8. witness at work, [or school, the subway, or and anywhere else]
9. study the WTs literature with the family every week,
10. don't pursue worldly endeavors,
11. don't go to college,
12. get a job [that will allow you to] pioneer,
13. don't think about:
women,
sex or
money, or
[question the Organization's teachings]
14. don't [engage in] sports,
15. if you slip up tell on yourself, [confess to the elders]
16. if you see someone else slip up [you are required to report] them [to the elders],
17. go to [every] assemblies, conventions..."
Add to this list:
18. contribute $$$ to the WTBTS
19. contribute your labor for its construction projects whenever asked
20. pay your share of the KH's mortgage [held by the WTBTS]
21. give the WTBTS every dime receive as 'contribution' for literature placed
22. trust the WTBTS to "channel" Almighty God's communications at the right time, even though its been wrong so many times before
These things, all taken together, are seen as 'evidence' of one's "loyalty" to the "Faithful and discreet slave". If you're not one of that group, you're seen as cannon fodder for its "loving god" when he destroys every living members of the human race who isn't a baptized member of their club.
The list goes on an on. All the activity demanded by the WTBTS is to leaves it's followers too busy to use their intellect, let alone their eyes, ears, and brains to see what's really going on within that multinational corporation.
There's a scripture where Jesus reportedly told those listening that "my yoke is easy and my burden is light" (Matthew 11:30). How do you think the Watchtower's 'yoke' compares?
I don't think we'll ever know just how many suicides among JWs originate from feelings of unworthiness because they couldn't keep all these rules so they gave themselves an 'easy out' by qualifying for a second chance [the resurrection after Armageddon].
Sad, eh?
Cee Cee
Last Edited By: Cee Cee Sep 11 14 5:29 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlinecangie
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And then...even if you are able to do ALL the things required on the list...even THEN, the scriptures say that PERHAPS you MAY be saved. pullhair Girl hissy fit PERHAPS??? MAYBE??? I could never stomach that idea........ Vomiting
status offlinewomanbeyondtime
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Sep 9 14 8:36 PM
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Yes and I say yes again I understand what you are saying. The org said jump and we said "how high". I remember one elder saying, in fact I do remember he was chief in having me d'fd,. said "ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do or die". I had an interesting experience in knowing an older woman after I'd been out for a few years. She was in her late 70's and had been "in" since she was about 4 via her mother and had been married to an elder for 47 years and he had died young about 18 years before. After he died, it seems all her resentment for the massagenism (excuse spelling) just blew a gasket at one before service meeting when he sat there and spreading his legs and putting his hands on his knees said that sister's could no longer stand at the pre-service meetings if they were doing the meeting but had to be sitting even if they had their heads covered. She just lost it. I met her after she had flipped and been putting sticky notes in volumes upon volumes of the org's books. (It was a site to behold and she was very organized about it but do to the shock therapy she had received years before she was not very effective. The facts that I could get out of the period of her life was that she had just written to the org with a question and instead of answering her the society wrote to her husband and then he said to her" ____ _____what have you done and I just felt myself slipping away". After a lot of shock therapy she continued on. She had also paid $17,000.00 to a local attorney (and he took the money which I think was very dishonest)in an attempt to sue the Watchtower society for something like ruining her life. She could not talk about the society without spitting (she was from a Siclian family) and she would get so worked up it was frightening. At first I thought some of the things she said were really too out there but she seemed to know things that were true too. She often said that the Watchtower was a "military" organization. I understood her point. They are certainly very businesslike in their treatment of the flock, having little regard for the human condition. In fact the point is when you go to a committee meeting everything you do say can and will be used against you. Let's face it many of us were misled as children and also too mixed up as adults after the experience. It's important I believe to understand that there is a lot of brainwashing going on in many places. I think that it is hard to take because we had such faith and trust in the org and most of us were very sincere individuals who did our best and we realized gradually that something was terribly wrong. We couldn't place it because things just had to right. Certainly there is nothing wrong in many areas except the fact that the human factor does not fit in somehow. I really want to write a book about my life. Not just the 42 years in the org but about insanity and religion and other related topics. I can say I've been worked over by experts.
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Sep 11 14 4:59 AM
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Moxie, the WT org teachings do not make sense. The believer simply hopes that the gb have got it all sorted.
In reality Watchtower interpretation of the Bible is no better than anyone else’s interpretation... and the Bible itself which it is all claimed to be based on; is shot through with errors, idiotic instructions and inconsistencies.
So breathe a sigh of relief...you are no longer subject to the Bible or its JW high priests...unless you choose to be.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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It really does you good to mull over these contradictions as you are doing. You got me thinking. Why is it that the gb keep hammering away with the BS?
It is to perpetuate their power within the cult.
They are nobodies without a following.
By being a JW you are supporting not God (he doesn’t need support) but the governing body of JW org.
Already each one of the governing body of Jehovah’s Witnesses does fully realise that the things they teach do not miraculously originate with God. Instead they are formulated by majority vote at their own committee meetings where they manipulate the credibility of their doctrines. They know there is no divine intervention. The BS they promote does not and cannot have divine blessing otherwise they would be correct in their assertions and would never need to change them! They must know that “new light” is simply whitewash for unworkable doctrines.
What they refuse to see and constitutionally deny is that the Bible is full to the brim with fantasy stories and absurd exaggerations.
I think that all the problems stem from this one false source; that as a holy untouchable, irreproachable guide for all humanity the Bible falls flat on its face. It is not the word of any known God.
The Hebrew scriptures are mainly the unoriginal works (derived from Egypt, Babylon and Persia) from writers in Levantine palace communities and copyists and editors and certainly show no evidence of special inspiration. In fact the stories they tell are historically untrue. The Christian writers were drawing on all the prevailing cult beliefs and absorbing them and dressing up the old pagan characters, especially the ancient Christ myth, to make their dogma appealing firstly to the Jews and then to all groups by using the prevailing sacred beliefs of the second century Roman world.
In essence the Bible was made holy by the Roman state religion for political purposes and the gb use the same controlling tactics and invoke the same so called 'sacred text' for political gain.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status offlineSailAway
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Sep 12 14 4:21 AM
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Cee Cee wrote:
Your list is spot on. These are the things it takes to be a Jehovah's Witness 'in good standing' and they are the only people who, according to the Watchtower, will be allowed to live through Armageddon and into the New System of Things.
1. "Go to all the meetings,
2. comment at all the meetings,
3. study the watchtower before the watchtower study,
4. underline the answers-same with the book study.
5. Read the magazines cover to cover as soon as they hit the mailbox,
6. give talks,
7. go out in field service [conduct bible studies],
8. witness at work, [or school, the subway, or and anywhere else]
9. study the WTs literature with the family every week,
10. don't pursue worldly endeavors,
11. don't go to college,
12. get a job [that will allow you to] pioneer,
13. don't think about:
women,
sex or
money, or
[question the Organization's teachings]
14. don't [engage in] sports,
15. if you slip up tell on yourself, [confess to the elders]
16. if you see someone else slip up [you are required to report] them [to the elders],
17. go to [every] assemblies, conventions..."
Add to this list:
18. contribute $$$ to the WTBTS
19. contribute your labor for its construction projects whenever asked
20. pay your share of the KH's mortgage [held by the WTBTS]
21. give the WTBTS every dime receive as 'contribution' for literature placed
22. trust the WTBTS to "channel" Almighty God's communications at the right time, even though its been wrong so many times before
These things, all taken together, are seen as 'evidence' of one's "loyalty" to the "Faithful and discreet slave". If you're not one of that group, you're seen as cannon fodder for its "loving god" when he destroys every living members of the human race who isn't a baptized member of their club.
The list goes on an on. All the activity demanded by the WTBTS is to leaves it's followers too busy to use their intellect, let alone their eyes, ears, and brains to see what's really going on within that multinational corporation.
There's a scripture where Jesus reportedly told those listening that "my yoke is easy and my burden is light" (Matthew 11:30). How do you think the Watchtower's 'yoke' compares?
I don't think we'll ever know just how many suicides among JWs originate from feelings of unworthiness because they couldn't keep all these rules so they gave themselves an 'easy out' by qualifying for a second chance [the resurrection after Armageddon].
Sad, eh?
Cee CeeYes, Mox, your list is spot on. Here's a few more:
22. Serve where the need is great.
23. Pioneer (100 hours a month when I was a teen just out of high school, then dropped to 90 hours a month and now 70 hours)
24. If you can't pioneer, temporary pioneer (75 hours a month) at least once a year, now auxiliary pioneer (60 hours a month dropped down to 50 hours)
25. If you can't auxiliary pioneer, participate in the yearly Memorial season invitation campaign (You can auxiliary pioneer for an optional 30 hours a month during "special" campaigns now), the pre-convention invitation campaign and any other "special" campaign such as the new JW.org tract campaign.
26. Auxiliary pioneer the month of your C.O. visit and be rewarded by yet another meeting, the pioneer meeting.
27. Full time pioneer and be rewarded by going to pioneer school (Two weeks when I did it, now one week I believe)
29. Full time pioneer and be rewarded by going to pioneer seminars right before the circuit assemblies.
30. Clean the Kingdom Hall when assigned with your book study, now service group.
30. Participate in spring and fall Kingdom Hall clean-up days.
31. If you're a sister, prepare and serve food at Kingdom Hall clean-up days.
32. Volunteer for Kingdom Hall maintenance. I hand trimmed all the rhododendron bushes each spring and kept the garden beds free of weeds all summer and fall for decades. I will say it was a good excuse to skip service for that morning.
33. Bring your Bible and study materials with you on vacation.
34. Pack meeting clothes to bring with you on vacation and be sure to go to a meeting and go out in service too, oh and witness to people in restaurants and at gas stations as you travel.
35. Purchase, prepare and serve food at local KH rebuilds during the week, because the RBC (now defunct, don't know what they are calling it now) only provides food for "volunteers" who travel on the weekend. Our congregation had TWO mold remediation projects that turned into complete rebuilds.
36. Don't make friends with or party with your neighbors, but be ready to shovel their sidewalks, do errands and prepare food for the ill and elderly in order to give a good witness.
37. Don't forget to do yard work, shovel snow, do errands, prepare food and visit the elderly and infirm in your congregation.
38. Pledge money to cover the never-ending resolutions to cover expenses. Continue to keep your vow, even if your personal financial circumstances take a dire downturn.
The list goes on and on. How did we ever survive? Mr. SailAway used to hate assemblies. I would come home so angry, exhausted physically and mentally, feeling beat up and like a failure.
The JW mantra-- DO MORE!
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Thank you Sail Away and CeeCee but we forgot a big one. Buy a 4 door car. LOL!!! I remember the first thing I did when I got disfelowshipped was I went out and bought a brand new
Mustang. It was a blue 1998 5 speed I loved that car. Wait there's more. That was 39 wasn't it.
40. Keep your house spotless so as to give a good witness
41. Make sure your kids attend meetings and field service whether they want to or not
42. If you ilive in a city engage in street witnessing (hold a watchtower and awake up as people walk by with real stuff to do.)
43. Feed the C.O. whenever he comes to town and only invite "exemplary publishers" to join you I.E. Elders and their wives
44. Put the Society in your will so as to support the World Wide Work even after your gone.
that's enough for now I guess
status offlineSailAway
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1moxjdub wrote:
Thank you Sail Away and CeeCee but we forgot a big one. Buy a 4 door car. LOL!!! I remember the first thing I did when I got disfelowshipped was I went out and bought a brand new
Mustang. It was a blue 1998 5 speed I loved that car. Wait there's more. That was 39 wasn't it.
40. Keep your house spotless so as to give a good witness
41. Make sure your kids attend meetings and field service whether they want to or not
42. If you ilive in a city engage in street witnessing (hold a watchtower and awake up as people walk by with real stuff to do.)
43. Feed the C.O. whenever he comes to town and only invite "exemplary publishers" to join you I.E. Elders and their wives
44. Put the Society in your will so as to support the World Wide Work even after your gone.
that's enough for now I guessYes, the 4-door car is a big requirement! When I left the borg I got a mini cooper-- six of the floor! It is so much fun to drive!
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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An eerie read given most of those points have been part of my childhood and early teenager living. Then I walked out and started REALLY living!
It's a wonderful way to work through the contradictions of the jdub lifestyle Moxie!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinenobodyknows
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I've got a few...
45. Look up all the scriptures during the meetings.
46. Sisters, wear a head covering if there isn't a brother to conduct the meeting for field service.
47. Take a tour of Bethel at least once in your lifetime.
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Oh my goodness!
Reading through this stuff makes one sick to their stomach. And yet that's the way the "Society" works.
Should any new ones' needing help wonder why we're the way we are...do your research into the organization and you'll soon learn too.
I'm certainly tired of hearing how this world is controlled by Satan. I quizzed fence-rider the other morning as to why she pretends supporting the military while being [ah, heck, cannot find the correct spelling]one of those that won't support the military and yet she depends upon those for helping keep her safe.
She told me it's because we are a military family, living in our home [temporarily] and wants to show respect.
Please, take the step for making a firm decision on what you want doing with your life.
Mine is not always easy either...I do religion and politics and it can be tough at times...but I know which way I'm going.
On the other hand, hubby is kinder. He just calls her the "Butterfly."
Too, I'm learning to be more gentle with her because she is welcome in our home and she has a struggle with our other JW siblings because she does take issue with a lot of their doctrines.
I just don't want being at the age she is and still believe that the WTBTS has all the answers as to my spiritual condition.
We're not judging her for wanting to celebrate the holiday season or that she doesn't go to the KH. But, please give up your old thinking that the "Society" will dictate how you think about society in general just because we don't follow the party-line as dictated by the WTBTS.
And dictated it is. Do this or that or be damned to die at Armaggdonsmiley: mad
Last Edited By: Linda Oct 2 14 2:23 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlinesolitaire
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Seeing them all written down like that....it's no wonder we had not time or energy to actually live smiley: ohwell
It didn't matter how hard I tried to be the 'perfect' little jw, there was always a chance that would not make it through 'the end'....................
Like you Mox I was always peeved that if I died before the big A I would be resurrected and have the chance of eternal life in the new system......along with all those others who died at the 'right time'
I mean come on!!!........you've just been raised from the dead!! I think that may have just the slightest bearing on whether you believed or not...........whereas us saps that were still around at the time of 'the end' and found 'wanting' would be obliterated...........no chance of seeing any 'miracles' to prove what we believed smiley: tired
It's why I always used to feel guilty when people didn't listen to the 'good news'............I had condemned them to die, whereas if they had never heard, they would be brought back from the dead and given the opportunity of 'believing'...............a whole lot easier when you find yourself alive again lol!!
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlineFiguringitout20
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1mox, love this thread. It's sad, and all so true! Your initial post made me laugh too. "...maybe even killed a few people along the way" Sounds so ridiculous, but that's really essentially what they teach - the past counts for nothing, what matters is what you're doing at the last minute before the big A.
status offlineFiguringitout20
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solitaire wrote:
I mean come on!!!........you've just been raised from the dead!! I think that may have just the slightest bearing on whether you believed or not...........whereas us saps that were still around at the time of 'the end' and found 'wanting' would be obliterated...........no chance of seeing any 'miracles' to prove what we believed image
It's why I always used to feel guilty when people didn't listen to the 'good news'............I had condemned them to die, whereas if they had never heard, they would be brought back from the dead and given the opportunity of 'believing'...............a whole lot easier when you find yourself alive again lol!!
haha! Yes, I used to wonder about this too!
status offlineCacky
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Then there is the old cunudrum (spelling?) where, if they never heard the "good news" and they died, they'd be resurrected, but if they heard and rejected it, they wouldn't. In that case, it would be better for people to not be told, so in case they died, they'd get resurrected.
status offlineKBG
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Cee Cee wrote:
Your list is spot on. These are the things it takes to be a Jehovah's Witness 'in good standing' and they are the only people who, according to the Watchtower, will be allowed to live through Armageddon and into the New System of Things.
1. "Go to all the meetings,
2. comment at all the meetings,
3. study the watchtower before the watchtower study,
4. underline the answers-same with the book study.
5. Read the magazines cover to cover as soon as they hit the mailbox,
6. give talks,
7. go out in field service [conduct bible studies],
8. witness at work, [or school, the subway, or and anywhere else]
9. study the WTs literature with the family every week,
10. don't pursue worldly endeavors,
11. don't go to college,
12. get a job [that will allow you to] pioneer,
13. don't think about:
women,
sex or
money, or
[question the Organization's teachings]
14. don't [engage in] sports,
15. if you slip up tell on yourself, [confess to the elders]
16. if you see someone else slip up [you are required to report] them [to the elders],
17. go to [every] assemblies, conventions..."
Add to this list:
18. contribute $$$ to the WTBTS
19. contribute your labor for its construction projects whenever asked
20. pay your share of the KH's mortgage [held by the WTBTS]
21. give the WTBTS every dime receive as 'contribution' for literature placed
22. trust the WTBTS to "channel" Almighty God's communications at the right time, even though its been wrong so many times before
These things, all taken together, are seen as 'evidence' of one's "loyalty" to the "Faithful and discreet slave". If you're not one of that group, you're seen as cannon fodder for its "loving god" when he destroys every living members of the human race who isn't a baptized member of their club.
The list goes on an on. All the activity demanded by the WTBTS is to leaves it's followers too busy to use their intellect, let alone their eyes, ears, and brains to see what's really going on within that multinational corporation.
There's a scripture where Jesus reportedly told those listening that "my yoke is easy and my burden is light" (Matthew 11:30). How do you think the Watchtower's 'yoke' compares?
I don't think we'll ever know just how many suicides among JWs originate from feelings of unworthiness because they couldn't keep all these rules so they gave themselves an 'easy out' by qualifying for a second chance [the resurrection after Armageddon].
Sad, eh?
Cee CeeGreat list, but I wouldn't go thru the work of compiling such a well written, concise list to salvation. If the If the Manipulative and Discreet Slave gets a hold of this, they will print it on laminate wallet sized cards and require the rank and file to carry it around.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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I just love ya'llsmiley: smile Thank you for being here for me for so many yearsPals
I'm now experiencing the Mormon Church. They don't want me feeling pressured to join but because of hubby doing genealogy - would we consider doing this or that volunteer work? NO!
As with the JW and probably most any religion- once they get you to thinking how they do, it's going to be the same thing. Although I will say they don't shun and we do enjoy conversation with the missionaries. I'm not about to be baptized ever again although I came real close because of hubby wanting me to be "Sealed" with him after deathsmiley: pimp because he is baptized Mormon.
For christ sake! [no pun intended] after my years of research - does he really think I want to be 'confirmed' or obligated to any religion? Ya' gotta love hubby though because he is my husband that always supports me in whatever.
Thank goodness too, I get to make the final decision as to what we will or will not do with any religion...and that's not on my agenda today: join a religion just because there are 'nice' members.
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I have been shoo'ed!!!
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offlinewomanbeyondtime
I have been shoo'ed!!!
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Sep 6 14 8:46 PM
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Two days ago I went to the local health food store which I have gone to for many years before and after I was disfellowshipped. The store is owned by one of the Witnesses and it seems mot people working there have always been witnesses. Two days ago the woman at the register who I vaguely remembered as belonging to Jehovah's Witnesses said to me - you look familiar. I then realized I had known here quite well at one time ( 16 years ago). I really didn't want to get into a conversation about anything but I said well what is your name? She answered and I replied I don't know as I really could not exactly place her. She then said oh you were in (congregation name) and where are you now, are you ___? I just said no I don't go to any congregation now. I knew she had to have known that I was disfellowshipped. She said well why aren't you going? I said I was disfellowshipped and I don't agree with them on some things now. Her entire face changed to one of contempt and her entire demeanor changed to beyond brusque and businesslike to one of hostility. I felt so defensive. I said I was a Witness for 42 years and my great-grandmother funded the organization. (this is just like me to blurt out something to try to explain myself). Then she looked at me with utter contempt and irritation and said that's alright (like this conversation has gone far enough) and she shoo'ed me with her hands. Instantly my anger level just hit the ceiling level but I said with some calm. you see this is why I wont' have anything to do with you people because they don't care about anyone. They are just hideous! and I walked out. So I was shoo'ed out of the store but not before finally being able to say something. In all the years I have gone there I have never been anything but polite and have referred many people for supplements. I have never brought up the subject of having been a JW or tried to engage them in a discussion of anything but a few questions or comments on supplements. I have always been congenial and kind. The venom of this encounter is still stinging but so glad that I escaped years ago from this judgmental, mean-spirited group of self-righteous, self-deluded people who are so limited in their compassion and understanding of humanity and who also do not have a lot of other things right either! and hey now I can say I've been shoo'ed by a JW.
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Sep 6 14 10:02 PM
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Welcome WBT! Sorry to hear of your experience. Yes, they are incredibly self righteous. If she wasn't so blind, she might actually realize how rude it is to shoo someone. But the org has done quite the job of convincing everyone in to treat the DFd like they are dead. :( I hope you can find another local health food store to go to.
status offlineCee Cee
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Wow! (Imagine the effect on a customer watching.) I'm sorry it happened to you. I know it hurts, but doesn't it just reinforce your good reasons for not being one? JW's think treating people badly will make them want to rejoin the happy throng. PULEEZ!
What about a letter to the owner describing the incident and how the folks you repeated this incident to were incredulous about how you were treated in a retail establishment with plenty of competition. They've not only lost you as a customer, but me too (if I were where ever in the world you are).
That's not exactly honest, as I HATE health food stores [they killed my father assuring him that eating garlic pills would bring his blood pressure down as well as expensive Rx meds. It did--all of 12 points--but his pressure, which they didn't bother to take before handing out this free advice about a cheaper all "natural" cure, was over 200!] Oy, don't get me started. We make most of our health food/homeopathic purchases online and at a far lower price than our local shops.
Cee Cee
One more thing...having been kicked out of their vicious little 'club' is something to be thankful for. Imagine if these ugly people were only friends you were allowed to have? YUK! You have an entire world of folks to chose friends from among and you'll find very few of them as nasty as JWs are.
status offlinesolitaire
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Sep 7 14 12:48 AM
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Firstly hello womanbeyondtime and welcome smiley: smile
Secondly congrats on your first ever shoo'ing lol!! You have now joined the band of the elite.........and eventually this will become such an everyday occurence when in the company of the self-righteous, that it will cease to register......so wear your badge with pride smiley: tongue
Good to have you here
Sam x
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlinematitalica
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Sep 7 14 5:44 AM
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I think that would call for a complaint to the BBB, for rudeness to customers based on religious bias.
status offlinewomanbeyondtime
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Sep 7 14 7:29 AM
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Thanks for the empathy. I have been "out" for 15 years and I have good reasons for not going back What they did to me was cruel and slanderous but it also led me to finding out that some of their central "doctrines" are not correct. I would never have escaped any other way. It was like God just pulled me out of their. I was so tenaciously attached to them. It was my whole life . Also it is a very business like and cruel organization in their treatment of children and in giving no real recognition of the "fallen" nature of mankind in a compassionate way or depth of understanding of what people go through. They are not given any tools or training in how to help people nor do they understand the full scope of the scriptures. They do all this in the name of "loyalty" to the organization and to what they call Jehovah when they don't really know what they are talking about. Only former witnesses can begin to understand the full extent of the brainwashing tactics that have been employed and only if they study that field. I would never, could never go back because of three things - most importantly their heartlessness and secondly I see clearly now that they are wrong in central doctrinal beliefs and thirdly there is a hand in the highest reaches of the organization that has master minded this mind control. Things are not right. It has been devastating to 5 generations of my family but I just look at it this way - it was necessary for me/us to see the full effect of all of this type of thing and is a lesson for eternity. It was my destiny to go through this and I am much wiser for it. They oversimplify everything and it is much easier for them to train people into simple-mindedness and keep control over their unknowing victims than to teach the great lessons of the true God. In fact that is the only way that brainwashing organizations can keep control simple mindedness, fear and hatred. Anything else confuses them!! but there is no excuse for pure meanness.
status offlineJourney
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Sep 7 14 3:12 PM
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I am sorry this happened to you, but with every one of these incidents I think we can all see good reasons to leave in the first place. Who would want to belong to a group of people, any people, who treated other human beings this way? I don't hang out with mean people, period, and if being mean is one of the basic practices of the Jehovah's Witnesses today, then I don't want to be part of that.
Thanks for posting your story on this. Welcome to the group. I hope you can find your health foods elsewhere.
Love, Journey
status offlineKBG
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Sep 7 14 6:03 PM
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Love your story. welcome.
status offlinecangie
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Welcome WBT.....we're glad that you found your way to us. Be assured that you are among a group of people who not only know exactly what you faced or are facing, but many of us are proof that there is indeed life after leaving the organization, as well as recovery and mental and emotional healing from the damage caused to us. And be assured, we have a zero-tolerance policy against "shoo-ing", so there won't be any of that nonsense here! lol Pals
status offlineCacky
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Hello and welcome to the board. I had an experience with a jw I didn't know, but I was still a jw at the time. I was at the bank and dealing with the bank teller. I had my wallet open, and the teller, a young girl about 22, grabs my wallet from me. We had a moment of tug of war with my wallet when she stops pulling it and points to my blood card. It turns out she was the grown daughter of a sister I knew. I thought it was rude the way she pulled at my wallet with me having no idea why she was doing that. Jw's think they have rights that they don't have. She didn't last long at the bank, and I was glad because I didn't like the idea that she would have access to my bank account information.
status offlineMarked for life
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Sep 8 14 11:37 AM
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Welcome WBT! We are the "shooed"! That could be a battlecry. I like it.
Don't let buttholes get to you. They're only good for two things and neither are flattering. He he.
status offlinehalf banana
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Welcome Wbt, thanks for telling us about your encounter.Its amazing how the taint of being a JW remains well after departure. I am still angry with this bunch of loonies, still angry that I got involved and angry that they still ply their nasty trade.
But you’re welcome here to get things off your chest and feel at home with other escapees.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Welcome to our humble abode RecentlyShoo'edOne ..............................
It's surprising that she shoo'ed you out given you're no longer one of the sheep! I was under the impression only the sheep-like ones were shoo'ed like that! Hmm ... I've been out too long I think!
Yes ... I am joking of course! It's sad and very unprofessional of that woman to behave in such a manner. As embarrassing or annoying as it must have been for you ... I hope there were non-jdub customers in there who witnessed the whole very un-witness-like behaviour ... and they boycott the store! I'd find somewhere else to shop or buy online honey .... that way you're not lining their pockets with your money. She obviously has contempt for former jdubs. She is judgmental, rude, superior and not at all nice. You're way better than her ... never forget that!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineCacky
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Sep 14 14 3:29 PM
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I wasn't shooed, but two "sisters" came to my door looking for my jw daughters, and they weren't home. I was talking to the one, and actually speaking to both of them. I guess they felt it was ok for the one to speak words to me since they were trying to find my daughters, but the other one wouldn't utter a word, she'd just go, "mmmm," things like that, not speak words but communicate by making noises. It was pretty funny.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Hi, Ya'll.
I'm not sure where to even begin this one...please mods, take me away into the proper forum if necessary.
With 'fence rider' living with us a few weeks..yes, it's stressful at times but we want making her feel at home.
She is learning however we don't play by her religious rules.
She wants knowing what you might know about the International Convention our other sister is preparing for come October.
"Fence Rider" hasn't gone to the KH yet and it's just a block away. I've told her she can do whatever...I appreciate her help knowing she thinks to being doing missionary work but what it comes down to...she also needs help.
So, it's all about how we help each other and leave religion out. Just be siblings and enjoy the life we have because none of us are getting younger.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Sep 19 14 10:12 PM
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Cathy ... it's hilarious when you know they don't approve but one has to talk! No point knocking on someone's door and both standing there saying nothing! Good for a giggle though.
How are your daughters?
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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The girls are still avid jws, but they are not shunning, so that's good. Thanks for asking. My other daughter who has been freed from the org is doing very well.
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Your other daughter has a free spirit and will stay free! As for the jdub girlies ........ they may one day see what's really happening around them and come on out for good too! That little ray of natural sunlight never goes astray!!!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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A Blast From the Past
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offlinebirdwoman2
A Blast From the Past
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The current hooplah and excitement over the new jw. org apps and the jw tv channel etc. remind me a lot of the phonograph campaigns of the 30s and 40s.
f4736fa91935b35701065f8f3f32a75eae21c456
Recorded Bible discourses had a prominent role in the witnessing work during the 1930s and early 1940s The phonographs used by Kingdom publishers themselves underwent change with the passing of time. About 1934, when this work first started, there was a strong compact model with a spring-wound motor and carrying space for several discs. With 6 discs, it weighed twenty-one pounds. When this work first started the phonograph was so heavy that the brothers kept it in their automobile or left it at a convenient place until they found people who were willing to listen to a recorded Bible discourse.
A few years later, at an assembly in Columbus. Ohio, on September 15-20. 1937, the work using the portable phonograph on the doorstep was introduced. Formerly the Witnesses had been carrying the phonograph in the service but had only played it when invited inside. Now it was played on every doorstep. The procedure was simple: After stating that he had an important Bible message. the publisher would put the needle on the record and let it do the talking.
As of 1940. more than 40,000 phonographs were being used.
The release of a new model of phonographs is described in the 1941 Assembly Report:
Trim and streamlined, resembling a handsome piece of luggage, the new, pebbled gray phonograph is an improved instrument for the use of His witnesses to magnify Jehovah's name and to proclaim His King and His Theocratic Kingdom. Although specially designed for doorstep setups, the vertical-type machine is equally efficient for back-calls and model studies, as proved by hundreds of conventioners who were able to secure this equipment in St. Louis.
Equipped with a lock and key, also a complete set of instructions for its operation, each one of the new lightweight models was borne triumphantly away by a witness who counted himself fortunate in acquiring the instrument and eager to put it into Theocratic use. About 300 of the machines had been taken to The Arena, and they were disposed of with a rapidity that was suggestive of the proverbial hot cakes.
It was difficult to turn them out fast enough, as each had to be assembled by experts from Society headquarters, then tested, all of which required time. They were apportioned over a period of three days and meanwhile demonstrations were carried on with a special cutaway model showing the working mechanism within. The Lord's people, after all are at heart only children; hence it was with childish interest they watched, fascinated while the demonstrator model was put through its paces, and when the sound of Judge Rutherford's voice issued therefrom as the machine was held in one's hand in an upright position, there were no bounds to their enthusiasm. In their mind's eye they could picture themselves making doorstep setups with such a handy machine.
Each machine is also equipped with a package of chromium needles of the required length that must be used each needle being recommended for 25 playings. Full instructions for operating the machine also include an explanation of how to work the volume control. the shutter may be left almost closed for use in apartment houses, while outdoors it may be opened to give full volume.
One advantage which entranced the friends was the book compartment, the upper part of which may be used to hold two books and a number of booklets while below may be carried copies of Watchtower, Consolation, Kingdom News, and additional booklets. Or, in case of getting ready to hold a model study, sufficient bound books, Bible etc., for references may be safely stowed away in the double compartment along with Model Study booklet eliminating the necessity of carrying another witnessing case. Two records - four sides - the maximum number usually desired for a model study of one hour's length may be carried on the turntable when the machine is closed.
Those who have read the instructions given with each machine value highly the detailed outline of how to arrange and carry out the doorstep setup even to the statement the witness makes in introducing the playing of the record; also advice on adjusting and care of the phonograph.
The new phonograph weighs but 8 3/4 pounds empty. One may imagine its intricate and devious workings when it is remembered that each machine contains 215 parts. The "insides" of a typical machine were displayed on a board at the phonograph counter, at St. Louis, the same being a revelation even to the mechanically-minded. Moulds, dies and tools for construction of the new model were made under the direction of the Society. Production will be continued as rapidly as possible, so that more machines may be put into the possession of witnesses as rapidly as possible.
Surely the Lord has again shown His goodness to His people by placing such an efficient instrument in their hands and they will show their gratitude by wielding it as effectively and accurately as Ehud used his dagger on fat old Eglon.
Note the Society's attitude towards the rank and file in the paragraph I highlighted. "The Lord's people, after all are at heart only children; hence it was with childish interest they watched, fascinated ..." Keep in mind, though, the Society was speaking of adult JWs being like children.
Maybe that is what made it easy for the Society to recruit the children to participate in spreading Watchtower propaganda.
17926231aeb430275c1386a35eda2931c4205a69
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
- Frederic Bastiat
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 2 days ago. Edited 1 time.
status onlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Thanks for posting.
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Oh yeah! I remember that! One summer day my little girlfriend and I were playing dress-up in her (JW) grandmother's fancy old clothes stored in the old chicken coop behind her house. Among the 'treasures' we discovered was one of those Watchtower portable record players AND some Judge Rutherford records. I have no idea how many years it had been stored among the stuff there, but when we put a record on and it played! His style of speech was bombastic--very much like Hitler's voice was. I don't know if that was because of the poor quality of the recording, or if that particular style was considered special back in the days when it was recorded but by the time we heard it was awful. It meant nothing to us (1950s), just some old novelty to be giggled about. We and soon left him blaring and went off to go try on the old hats and gloves packed in a dusty trunk left there. I sure wish I'd done that with everything else left by the WT.
Grandma Cee Cee
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CeeCee, you nailed it about Rutherford's speaking style. I told my father that his voice scared me when I put one of those old records on grandmas old phonograph player. He did sound like Hitler!
Diane, your highlighted section would have blared out to me without the highlights even. That IS the attitude that the GB have towards rhe rank & file witness...children...not adult or intelligent enough to study the Bible on their own and form an adult opinion about what they've read. And the sad part is that the rank & file don't even catch the insult to their intelligence! Then there is the point that they exploit actual children in their work *grrr*😡
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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The procedure was simple: After stating that he had an important Bible message. the publisher would put the needle on the record and let it do the talking.
LOL, so back then they didn't have to learn how to give a presentation. As the quote says, Judge Rutherford did all the talking for them!
And I agree with Sharon, that statement about the "Lord's people" being like children would have stood out to me even without the highlight.
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And I agree with Sharon, that statement about the "Lord's people" being like children would have stood out to me even without the highlight.
Oh dear. I am sorry - I didn't mean to treat you like children! smiley: embarassed
Sorry if I came across as condescending....I guess I was thinking of the weird and off chance that some of those Children of the King generation way up there in Society might read this some day and I wanted to make sure, seeing as their parents were viewed as 'children', that they didn't miss it. smiley: tongue
I know that this generation of readers are savvy...and especially our dear forum members....youze guys are brilliant! smiley: happy After all, you figured out the Society's scam a long time ago!
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
- Frederic Bastiat
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CeeCee - I played with one of those phonographs when I was a little girl too. It was stored in the basement and we have long cold winters up here so I listened to old Rutherford a lot when I was preschool age - we had one of the music records too. My mother used to hate it when we would crank the old thing up when we were bored - I don't think she could stand the sound of Rutherford's voice either - both the phonograph and the records hit the burning barrel one day.
I have never been able to find out what one of the phonograph setups cost back in the day. I wonder how much it set back my grandparents limited income - they were homesteaders on a small 40 acre farm in rural Canada and they were not rich. The phonograph I played with was brown, not grey like the 'new and improved' phonograph player released at the St. Louis convention in 1941. It is rather hilarious that the 1941 notion of 'modern' was associated with the color grey - sort of like their new and improved Bibble just released this past year.
We had a box of the Rutherford books too. I read them all when I was far too young to understand the contents and had no idea what they were talking about - weird stuff. But I liked doing pencil rubbings off the covers. Those too, went into the burning barrel one day.
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Dear God, I'm not making fun of you, Jehovah, ...I just don't believe that you are the "True God" that wants dictating to me how I should believe when it comes to spiritual matters.
And so, dear Jehovah, get over yourself because you are no longer the most important thing in our life; and I want being someone that helps encourage others.
And so because I'm having fun before shutting down...I'm with many others that we do understand how hateful that religion is and yet we want just being kind to others without all the judgment.
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Yes, there seems to be a lot of hupla about the new jw.org brand name. My girls don't discuss anything jw with me, but I've seen enough posts, on facebook, cedars' blog, etc. to see all the hupla that is going on.
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Wave HiCathy.
I'm still uncertain as to how I can actually read their bullshit religious channel. Do I need doing this from On-line or will it actually be posted on cable television? I've checked into their one site but I often encounter problems when trying to find it on cable.
At any rate, we know they are the liars and I want talking notes for my research.
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Diane, I wasn't thinking at all that you were being condescending. No worries there : )
I too noted the color grey
It is rather hilarious that the 1941 notion of 'modern' was associated with the color grey - sort of like their new and improved Bibble just released this past year.
I like grey in certain color schemes but their bibble reminds me of my other association with grey.........dead things....lifeless things.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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Don't worry Dianne, I didn't take it as you being condescending. Nothing wrong with highlighting the important parts! smiley: wink
Thanks for digging up all these interesting things about the jdubs.
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Dianne ... the highlight bit jumped out at me and I'd have done the same! Don't even think any of us thought you were being condescending. If you were sitting with us in the same room ... you'd have emphasised the verbally to stand out ..... so you go girl!!!
Excellent info to read there too Researcher Dianne. I had to chuckle when I read the bit that said One advantage which entranced the friends was the book compartment ... .... as it's one of those 'the' moments for me. My parents have always said 'the friends' or 'one of the friends'. Never 'our friends' or 'one of our friends'. It's rather superior to whack a 'the' instead of 'our' .... or is that just me?
I imagine that back when the phonographs were used ... the householders were more than likely just excited with the novelty side of the machine itself rather than the message being delivered. Can you imagine anyone doorbanging that way now? They wouldn't even get up my driveway never mind knock on my door and set their little machines up! Mind you ... in saying that ... given the amount of technology taken into meetings, memorial services and conventions these days (check out your average jdubs bookface account!) ............... it wouldn't surprise me if the worldwide campaign effort wasn't put into hyper-drive mode by having mags and leaflets set out nicely on the iPad or tablet at the doors!!!! Blech
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Announcing a Website to Celebrate 1914-2014: The End of an Error for JWs
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offlineBarbara Anderson
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Website: http://www.ad1914.com (Available October 1, 2014)
Announcing a Website to Celebrate 1914 to 2014: The End of an Error for Jehovah’s Witnesses.
On October 2, 1914, Charles Taze Russell, founder of the Watch Tower, announced that “The Gentile Times have ended!” None of his expectations about 1914 came true, but Jehovah’s Witnesses have continually accepted updates to the “1914 doctrine” which have allowed them to cling to the date for 100 years.
But the Watch Tower’s grip on 1914 is coming loose. One of the most basic ideas behind the 1914 doctrine was that no one would be questioning it 100 years later. The very definition of the “1914 generation” that would live to see Armageddon has required numerous doctrinal “adjustments” as the years have passed. The 100-year milestone has, therefore, become more like a “millstone” around their neck.
So while the Watch Tower Society ostensibly celebrates, it really only highlights its own errors. And that’s why we’re announcing a new site: http://www.ad1914.com/ (available October 1, 2014). This website truly celebrates the life experiences of so many Jehovah’s Witnesses who studied the matter closely “to see whether these things were so.” (Acts 17:11) What they found, of course, put them at odds with the leaders of their religion and a faith to which they had dedicated their lives. The treatment many of them suffered from fellow members was shocking and, in many cases, this came even from their closest loved ones. Yet they persevered for the sake of the truth. Their stories are amazing
Read about the experiences of Raymond Franz, former member of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Read about Carl Olof Jonsson, who researched the chronology so thoroughly that the Watch Tower Society never even attempted a serious rebuttal. Read the experiences that have been submitted by Jim Penton, Alan Feuerbacher, Rud Persson, Randy Watters, Nestor and Toni Kuilan, Poul Bregninge, Max Hatton, Achille Aveta, Jean Eason, Duane Magnani, Ron Frye, Ron Reed, Marilyn Marsh, and many more.
The site also presents information and resources so that “1914” believers can think about what they’re clinging to. Now is the opportune time for Jehovah’s Witnesses to “make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine.” (1 Thess. 5:21)
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Thanks Barbara!!
We all love a new website for the real truth...............as opposed to that of the jw.org or 'janitorsworld' as its better known smiley: smokin
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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Loved Charlie 'Taser' Russell's Veil Mail to the GB! Hope the site gets many, many hits.
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Thanks for posting, Barbara. I'll check it out.
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Hi Barbara and thanks ........
Keep an eye out for the jdub trolls who are computer savvy ..... some of the links I've been reading of late now revert straight to the new jw.org website! Not sure how they're doing it ........ and of course now I can't find the links I originally clicked on ........ but it's happening.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Call from a JW friend
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offlinehalf banana
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Sep 1 14 4:34 AM
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Just had a phone call from my oldest friend who has remained a JW. We had started school together (two hundred years years ago if my memory serves right!) and we were close friends for decades until I left “the lie”. He remembers me in the classroom that first day with a drip under my nose from having a cold.
I was wondering since he has phoned quite soon after the convention, whether there had been any noises there about moderating the hostility to outsiders and faded ones? Or perhaps he is also fed up with being told what to do?
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Sep 1 14 5:45 AM
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Old friends are a treasure, halfbanana.
I was wondering since he has phoned quite soon after the convention, whether there had been any noises there about moderating the hostility to outsiders and faded ones? Or perhaps he is also fed up with being told what to do?
Seeing as you are old friends, why not just bite the bullet and ask him directly?
Friendships should be able to tolerate direct honesty. Otherwise, the friendship isn't really true.
Good luck.
Face the beast within, halfbanana - you may be surprised at the result.
Be you. Honestly.
smiley: smile
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
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status offlinesolitaire
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He's probably just realised that he needs some banana in his life smiley: wink
Let us know if and when you decide to dig deeper!!
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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Sounds interesting. I heard of a rumor that they were going to announce at the convention to go easy on those who have left, or to try to bring them back, something like that, but it was only a rumor and have not heard a word from anyone who may have attended. I haven't heard anything at all about this year's convention other than the dancing at the kingdom hall for the visiting missionaries and the bible shaped baptismal pools in Korea's conventions. That's all I've heard about the conventions this year.
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Hi, new to the forum
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offlineIan
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Sep 10 14 9:38 AM
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Hi All,
I plan to post my story soon (Very upright PO/CO family, shunned from age 15 since 1987), but until then i just wanted to introduce myself and thank all of you for participating on is forum. I honestly have never researched the borg after escaping, prefering to keep that rubbish as far away as possible. Due to my aversion I always held he borg as an actual religion, albeit a warped and fundamentalist one.
An oddly worded email from an estranged family member caused me to do some googling and... Wow. I read Raymond Franz and others for the first time. I read academic journals, watched YOuTube vids and read blogs. I have a master's degree, but i felt like such a fool to see how obvious a cult it is. Especially given the "new light" published since my escape. For the first time, I actually felt sorry for my parents, how terrible it must be to continue to live in the borg and under its mind control for so long. My life since has been great, so I rarely think about those who remained there with Armageddon constantly knocking.
Through your stories, the info on this blog and others, I realize for the first time that the warped and terrible "mental regulation" I was subjected to was not mine alone. All is time I thought i was just in a bad family in a bad congregation. Wow.
My story is a juicy one, lots of family political weirdness and sexual abuse cover-ups, a coerced baptism, you know, the usual. Real names. I just need some time to collect my thoughts before posting my bio as it's been a revealing last few weeks exploring this cult beast.
Although i've since moved to Europe, my family is from Macon, Georgia USA. Anyone from that area please feel free to connect with me.
Best,
Ian H.
one mor thing: this university research paper is a great view of the borg from outside, a real eye opener for me
http://www.lancaster.ac.uk/fass/sociology/research/publications/papers/holden-peering-through-the-watch-tower.pdf
status offlineSailAway
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Hi Ian! Welcome to the forum! I was just going to post some happy news about my daughter when I saw that this was your first post. My husband was out 30 years before I walked away in 2011. He didn't even start to learn TTATT (The Truth about the Truth) until I encouraged him to see a movie by ex-JWs entitled Here Lies the Truth. What an eye opener for him. He commented that he always thought the witnesses were pretty benign and pretty much had it right with regard to its teachings.
It's great to read that you have a good life now. I always hate to hear about shunning. That was one of my major reasons for leaving. It didn't know it was a cult either, but I wasn't about to shun my son when he was disfellowshipped, and I wasn't about to be a hypocrite and go the the meetings and pretend that I was shunning him. Ray Franz's Crisis of Conscience is a great read! Another great read is the elder's handbook called, Shepherd the Flock of God which you can download here: http://jwleaks.org/boe-letters/
I encourage you to keep reading and posting. You are going through a healing process, and it takes time. When you are ready please do tell us your story on the Tell Your JW Story Board! Again, Welcome!
SailAway
What is needed for dramatic change is an accumulation of acts, adding, adding to, adding more, continuing. We know that it does not take everyone on Earth to bring justice and peace, but only a small, determined group who will not give up during the first, second, or hundredth gale.
One of the most calming and powerful actions you can do to intervene in a stormy world is to stand up and show your soul. Soul on deck shines like gold in dark times. The light of the soul throws sparks, can send up flares, builds signal fires, causes proper matters to catch fire. To display the lantern of soul in shadowy times like these – to be fierce and to show mercy toward others; both are acts of immense bravery and greatest necessity.
Struggling souls catch light from other souls who are fully lit and willing to show it. If you would help to calm the tumult, this is one of the strongest things you can do.
Excerpts from, You Were Made for This, by Clarissa Pinkola Estes, Ph.D
status offlineCacky
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Sep 12 14 11:33 AM
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Hi Ian and welcome, I look forward to reading your story. Sounds like it will be interesting.
status offlinehalf banana
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Hi Ian and welcome to the site. Glad you found us!
I read the Lancaster university website text you referred to and also found it interesting...looking forward to your experience with the Borg in more detail.
HB
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status onlineFiguringitout20
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Sep 28 14 10:56 PM
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Hi Ian, I had a former best friend in the org who was originally from GA. She used to describe the assemblies as "bakin' in Macon" as apparently the temp was hot there. I read part of the document from the link you attached and will go back to read the rest later. So far it's an interesting read. Sorry to hear you've been shunned since age 15 :(. But it's great to hear that you've gotten far with your education. I'm looking forward to reading your story.
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Hello and welcome Ian !!
It doesn't matter what first causes us to question........cos once your eyes are opened its WOW!! That feeling is amazing isn't it?? It's almost information overload when we are first able to do true research without relying on wbts literature for our 'research'......thanks to the internet we have so much info at our fingertips, and no matter how hard the gb try to keep their members logging on only to their own website, there is just (thankfully) too much other info on the jw's to ignore for many!!
I am so glad that you have managed to extricate yourself from the mind control......and also glad that you found us smiley: smile
Hope you enjoy your time here, and I look forward to learning more about you...
Sam x
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status onlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Hi and welcome, Ian. smiley: smile
Sam, I'd agree that it doesn't matter what first caused us to question- mine was being so young and didn't kiss the church arse; that's what got me df because I no longer wanted to play by the rules as set forth from the WTBTS.
As I try remember to tell each new member - stick around and you'll catch on to why we no longer give worship to their "Jehovah". It doesn't make us bad people, we are not, "Mentally Diseased Apostates", we just simply want nothing to do with their religion.
I hope you stick around and share you story and get to know us.
Love, Lin
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Keep Up the Hope for Family Stuck In
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offlineVelvetGlove
Keep Up the Hope for Family Stuck In
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I posted about my story here a long time ago, but no one probably remembers. But I thought this might be at least uplifting and inspirational to others around here.
My mum has woken herself up to the truth about the truth recently! It's so exciting!
She had stopped going to meeting for a few months now, but still reading the mags and stuff my dad brought home.
But about 2 weeks ago she talked to me and told me she had been having some doubts about it all, and specifically asked me to help her research about paedophiles in the org. Particularly I think there was a man in Wales who had been in the news who was a JW who had been involved in all that... activity, which she'd heard about.
I sent her links to among other places, jwfacts, Barbara A's book (which I found in pdf online), and some official JW documents.
And now, it's just amazing! She's gone out and bought Crisis of Conscience on her own and is reading it, and has done all this research about the GB and 1914 and stuff. There's no possible way she's going back after finding out all that! She keeps telling me how no one else in her cong would know anything about this stuff, because they simply would refuse to look at it!
My dad is still in, but they had words and apparently he's okay with it all. :)
I'm just so excited I can buy her birthday and christmas presents again, and she's away from all that mess. She seems genuinely a lot happier as well lately.
I was just so happy I needed to share the news.
I hope all here with family in will someday have as good luck as I have. :)
Hope you all are well. :)
Last Edited By: VelvetGlove 2 days ago. Edited 1 time.
status offlinehalf banana
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Wowee! That is exciting Velvet! You must be thrilled, your mother is learning TTATT at last.
Thanks for letting us know and do report the progress...
I suppose it is the antidote to all those assembly experiences of the suckers who fall into the org. which is greeted with much hand-clapping. We tend not to do that in front of the computer! but when people realise how stupid they have been in believing the Watchtower paranoia; it is a great joy to lift that burden off the shoulders.
What was it do you think that got her started to doubt?
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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Velvet, that is great news an HB, we can clap in here!
HB, it sounds like it was the news media in Wales about the jw paedophile that started the process. We can only hope for more stories to get out on national media that can't be shut out as easily.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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"It takes what it takes."
I remember a few years ago when fence-rider called long enough to tell me she wasn't going to talk with family again because one of the elders in her congregation made national news had been busted for being a pedophile.
Yes, please keep us posted because that's how we help each other and find other avenues for doing research.
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Congratulationson your mother's "coming out", VelvetGlove. It was "Crisis of Conscience" that gave me the final push to disengage (mentally, as I had already left) from any further trust in the organization. Your father sounds as though he might be open-minded enough to eventually listen to a few things, and wouldn't it be wonderful if your folks became "evenly yoked" against "the truth"? Chuckle
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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How utterly exciting for you Velvet! You must be jumping out of your skin .... even if not full on in front of your mum! woohoojigwavehurrah
My dad is currently going hammer and tong about the idiosyncratic behaviour of 'most' jdubs he knows ....... and even though he maintains he still has 'the truth' ... since my mum's death a few weeks back, my dad is cutting loose in more ways than one. And I couldn't be prouder!
Keep up the good work ... support your mum ... chat with your mum .... and keep the love going!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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