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David Splane explains the overlapping generation teaching (without actually explaining it)
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Posted on September 10, 2015
David Splane grapples with the "overlapping generation" teaching in a new video
David Splane grapples with the “overlapping generation” teaching in a new video
The September JW Broadcasting episode is now available on tv.jw.org, and for any avid follower of goings-on at Watchtower this month’s offering from the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ is a must-watch.
Governing Body member David Splane addresses his audience on one of the many subjects best swept under the rug by Watchtower – the incomprehensible “overlapping generation” teaching.
Simply put, this teaching (which first appeared in the April 15, 2010 Watchtower) is a hastily-contrived get-out-of-jail-free card for the failed 1914 “this generation” teaching.
For decades Watchtower publications insisted that Armageddon was imminent because, they argued, the generation of anointed Witnesses (who believed they were going to heaven) who witnessed and understood the events of 1914 would not die out before Armageddon arrived.
This claim was based on Matthew 24:34, where Jesus told his followers that the generation that witnessed various apocalyptic signs would not die out until all his words, including the “great tribulation” (the prelude to Armageddon), came true.
So certain was Watchtower of this claim that it even had it included in its masthead for the Awake! magazine…
awake-page-4-generation-masthead-oct-1995-tn
That is, until they quietly changed the masthead to read as follows…
awake-page-4-masthead-nov-1995-tn
Increasingly it became obvious that Watchtower’s self-imposed time limit on Armageddon had expired, because too much time had passed since 1914 for there to be any survivors among Jehovah’s Witnesses old enough to have memories of the outbreak of World War I. In fact, at the time of writing in September 2015, only 50 individuals older than 110 years old are known to still be alive.
“New light” was called for, and in 1995 and 2008 the organization made various stabs at squaring the circle. Paul Grundy has done a great job of documenting these fluctuating “understandings” on his JWfacts resource.
The most recent solution, as proposed by Watchtower in 2010 (and regurgitated by Splane in the above clip), is to essentially embellish Jesus’ words by suggesting that “this generation” doesn’t have to be just one generation, but can be two.
The first “group” of “this generation” would witness and understand the events of 1914, and the second group would be those who were born before the last individuals in the first group died (hence an “overlapping” generation).
If you don’t understand this, it is not due to any failure on your part. It is because it doesn’t make sense. The teaching rides roughshod over the English language, redefining what “generation” means, and relying on the audience to willfully bypass their logical thinking skills by asserting the incomprehensible as indisputable truth.
After all, if you can arbitrarily insist that a generation can be composed of two groups, why not have three, four, five – on into infinity? The word “generation” quickly loses all meaning.
The wisest course of action for Watchtower would have been to either distance itself from the “overlapping generation” teaching as a well-meaning slip-up (perhaps by arguing “this generation” was figurative rather than literal), or ignore the matter altogether.
Instead, the Governing Body apparently concluded that a 12-minute video presentation rehashing the teaching, complete with diagram and stick pointer, was just what the doctor ordered.
Their mistake is an inevitable byproduct of their delusion and bullish devotion to their own contrived dogma. It is, to my mind, further proof that the Governing Body are not cynical con-men but really do believe their own nonsense – and expect us to believe it too. Otherwise, they would have steered clear of the subject entirely, and spoken about something more compelling and universally appealing.
In addition to this obvious faux pas, I am also delighted at David Splane’s performance, which wreaked of cheesiness and insincerity…
As a side note – Splane is among three Governing Body members (together with Herd and Losch) who have apparently opted to deliver their JW Broadcasting episodes alongside “helpers” from the various Governing Body committees. The other Governing Body members (Lett, Morris, Sanderson and Jackson) tend to appear by themselves. I can’t help but question Splane’s decision to appear with a co-host, since he is in my view one of the more competent, persuasive speakers on the Governing Body. His uneasy interactions with his co-host only serve to undo the forcefulness of his individual presentation.
A costly mistake
When JW Broadcasting was first announced 11 months ago I said at the time it was great news. The worst thing the Governing Body could possibly do was reveal themselves to their doting followers. It is far easier to respect and admire your leaders when you can’t see or hear them. Having them thrusted at your TV screen or computer monitor in all their bumbling, arrogant, senile, jewelry-flashing glory changes the whole dynamic.
Yes, we have seen some extremely potent pieces of indoctrination designed to pull on the heart strings and appeal to people’s emotions. The standard episode will feature at least one visually appealing interview segment with powerful imagery and stirring music, in which a loyal Witness tears up as he or she relates how Jehovah’s hand has come to their rescue against all odds.
I will continue to do my best to expose these clearly coercive methods in my JW Broadcasting rebuttal videos. But I am growing increasingly confident that to any sincere, intellectually honest Witness capable of rudimentary reasoning skills, no rebuttals are needed. The delusion, absurdity and self-indulgence speaks for itself.
new-cedars-signature3
Further reading…
◾Friendly Atheist article
◾To see a list of video rebuttals to JW Broadcasting episodes, click here.
◾To read the JWfacts page on changes to the generation teaching, click here.
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← Inducing phobias: How the Watchtower uses irrational fears to solidify membership
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358 Responses to David Splane explains the overlapping generation teaching (without actually explaining it)
Newer Comments →
Kat says:
September 10, 2015 at 3:33 am
please exsplane
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Excelsior! says:
September 10, 2015 at 7:51 am
Kat,
You made my day with that wonderful pun!
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
Rowland Nelken says:
September 10, 2015 at 3:39 am
There have been court cases and govt. pronouncements in Russia recently in attempts to restrict the ministry of JWs in this country.
Despite this, when I click on the JW Broadcasting link, here in Moscow, I receive the full array of glossy and expensive JW stupidity complete with Russian text and Russian dubbed vids.
Reply
dontknowwheretogo says:
September 10, 2015 at 3:46 am
I completely agree with you on that they believe 100% that they are chosen by God…they are full-in…as Don Cameron says in his excellent book “Captives to a Concept” they are held captive to the concept that they are 100% chosen by God thus WHATEVER explanation or doctrine they produce has God’s backing, period.
Delusional or what.
As a side note on the many discussions going on about this on various forums the overlapping generation explanation given by Splane with charts that include Freddy Franz is interesting in that it cites 1992 as the cut off for the first group.
Splane also says ALL current GB members are part of the second group that overlapped Franz thus Mark Sanderson, at age 50, is part of the second group thus he must have proclaimed being anointed prior to 1992.
And if they teach that the Big A will come in the second group’s lifetime and IF Mark Sanderson lives to 80 or 90 then the Big A can be another 30 to 40 years away without the GB having the need to change the current overlapping generation teaching.
Clever.
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JJ says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:08 am
Yes Dontknowwheretogo, the GB believe that anything that comes out of their own mouths must be from God. Not only the GB, but a lot of the elders too. I remember seeing it on the faces of some of those buffoons, after they said something they would have these self-assured smug look and you could hear the salient thought going through their primitive brian; I just said that! It must be true!
It’s unfortunate that they hurt so many trusting followers but it is satisfying to see themselves get taken in by their own lies.
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John Chapman says:
September 10, 2015 at 3:48 pm
The 144,000 is Jesus. Jesus = Yesus or Yes us, the 144,000. The Teragrammaton is Yahweh not “Jehovah” Jehovah is Barack Obama, genetic offspring of Aton aka Akhenaton (tetra (4) gram (measure) aton. The 4 measures of ATON (Akhenaton). YHWH is YaHuWeHe(r), the 144,000 elect Gods and Goddesses. The JW’s are like a broken clock; wrong most of the time but right twice a day. Russell was right, only 100 years early. Rutherford was a Vatican Jesuit infiltrator. The Watchtower is the tip if the spear for the communist NWO. Get out of Her My people…ALL of it…JC of the 144,000 an EX JW…
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anonymous says:
September 10, 2015 at 3:57 am
As crazy as it sounds, I look forward to every new jwbroadcast because they reinforce in me that I made the right decision to leave because so far, every one seems so very stupid and condescending to me.
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Jill says:
September 10, 2015 at 9:33 am
Well said
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John freeman says:
September 11, 2015 at 4:35 am
I am fading after 50 years in jw . And find it incredible that they are still trying to make this fit .it obviously only appied to the events of A D 70 etc . They have now abandoned the type and antitype so that the whole interpretation of matt 24 could be in question
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John freeman says:
September 11, 2015 at 4:56 am
I dont understand why they dont just drop the generation explanations .they have got it wrong so many time the whole thing has become untenable . I asked my wife if she wanted to watch the broadcast . She said she never understood the previous explanation so she didnt wana see this one she been in since 60s like me. Im sure many jws would rather not go on about it . Wr discussed it she thinks it applied in first centry .
But not now it doesent make sense anymore . Why dont they just admit they got it wrong
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Tam Emers says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:01 am
Another great article, Cedars. As you wrote about how JW Broadcasting brings the leadership to the spotlight instead of allowing them to remain in the shadows, I was struck by the comparison to a recent visit to the Nazi Documentation Center in Nuremberg, Germany. This center documents the rise of the Nazi Party prior to the beginning of the Second World War. Virtually from the time that the Nazi Party took leadership, Hitler was kept away from the common people. He would appear from a far-off podium, from a high balcony, from an armored car. His interactions with the people were limited, the reason given in the museum was that the Nazi Party wanted to cultivate the myth of ‘a benevolent Father figure, who was slaving away and working at the expense of his own health and well-being for the prosperity of the German people.’ I’ve listened to some of Hitler’s speeches and it is obvious that he was a powerful and compelling orator, but the world also knows he was crazy. Perhaps the ‘Father’ myth was also a way to keep the general population from discovering just how crazy he was.
It will be interesting to see how the spotlight changes the rank-and-file membership’s view of the Governing Body. Will the myth of benevolent leadership, of the Faithful ‘Fathers’ of the Organization working their fingers to the bone at the expense of their own health and well-being for the betterment of God’s people, hold up? I agree with you, that these men believe what they are preaching, which makes it so chillingly powerful. And scary.
One point of vocabulary: I would use the term ‘critical thinking’ rather than ‘logical thinking’, it is a bit more accurate way to describe the thinking process you are writing of. 😀
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Cedars says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:13 am
Thanks for your observations Tam. I chose “logical thinking” over “critical thinking” deliberately. 😉
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dontknowwheretogo says:
September 10, 2015 at 5:29 am
Very clever cedars, it this kind of thing that can draw in still-ins…I applaud this.
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Cedars says:
September 10, 2015 at 5:33 am
“Draw in?” I prefer “help out.” :)
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David says:
September 10, 2015 at 12:07 pm
As well you might. Let’s be honest, “Draw in” is a far more accurate description of your real intent.
Robertperez says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:16 pm
Critical thinking, would be more in lines of making a decision, doing the math before giving an answer. Logical thinking would be reasoning as to the need to do things the way your doing them. Neither need apply to the absolute distorting of scripture we see here. Proverbs 30:5,6 ” Every saying of God is refined. He is a shield to those taking refuge in him. Add NOTHING to his words, Or he will reprove you, And you will be proved a LIAR.” ——-copied and pasted straight from silver sword.—–
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Happyface says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:05 am
If only they could go back and double-check those Giza-pyramid measurements before making so many prophesies based on it.
A modern visionary of similar spirit had explained how such paradoxes (two generations being one) is perfectly possible. Its called Infinite Improbability. Research Douglas Adams. He too has quite a cult following and was able to breach most logical barriers in a perfectly valid and acceptable manner.
Do not be surprised to see the religion soon explode from a collection of 8-million psuedosheep to an infinite number of penguins.
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al etheredge says:
September 10, 2015 at 9:58 am
Great point. After extensive research conducted over a span of 15 seconds, I am certain that the angle on the left of the parallelogram (8:58 on video) precisely corresponds to the angle of the faces of the great pyramid. It all makes sense now (head impacts desk).
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Robertperez says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:29 pm
If it weren’t for the physical books out there in the thousands, they would deny the entire pyramid debacle, hence Rutherford cleaning house only to make his own false prophecies in the 20’s, when the membership started to speak up shunning was created to deal with those waking up. A few more prophecies later and culminating in all those waking up after the 1975 episode, we get the Ray Franz generation of awakenings. As you can see by this article the false prophecies have not stopped and in the eyes of those of us who believe in Gods word, neither has the name given to those who claim God will do something and then he doesn’t.
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Happyface says:
September 10, 2015 at 10:33 pm
I am exceedingly privileged to have come into the Christ having left the Jehovah’s Witnesses. I hope the same happens to those also who have been wounded.
In the words of James White ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru3GbBB_pIs ) many who leave the JWs never recover and end up as the “spiritually abused”. Its my hope that many who have been hurt can one day find the true comfort that is in Jesus.
Jesus is very different than what the JWs have portrayed. That religion is such a small spec in the history of apostacies and most insignificant in the shadow of the true shepherd.
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JJ says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:21 am
I agree with you Cedars! I couldn’t believe that JW Broadcasting (or any other form of JW-dumb) would attempt to explain this teaching(?) or whatever else you call the ‘overlapping generation’.
I’ve been out for a while but when I was ‘in’ a few years ago, I never heard anyone talk about the overlapping generation or even the ‘adjustment’ to the generation thing. It felt like we all just wanted to ignore it since the big change in 1995, or whenever it was. Growing up, the generation of 1914 was a huge doctrine for all of us Jehovah’s Witnesses but it felt like it became an embraces net in the last couple of decades (has it been that long already?!?)
Why the Governing Body would feel the need to go over this just staggers my imagination!!! Regular Jehovah’s Witnesses seem to be smart enough to not talk about it, why would their leaders not realize that no one wants to touch this ‘hot potato’???
I love charts and graphs but this diagram was the most stupid thing that I’ve ever seen! It makes no sense! In fact, when I first saw the still shot of David Splaine with his pointer I thought it was a doctored (photoshopped) picture. That’s how ridiculous it looked. (How do you tell a moron that he’s a moron? I guess that you just can’t).
If this month’s broadcasting doesn’t wake up a few thousand people to get out of the JW World then I guess my estimation for human intelligence will just have to be taken down another notch or two.
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Pickled brain says:
September 10, 2015 at 6:28 am
@JJ . Good comments & Observations you made. But I feel your point about JW Human Intelligence has just dropped down a notch or two has just happened. My Mother in Law who is 82 & baptised in 1962 Thinks the ‘SPLANE DIAPHRAGM??’ Is wonderful & really makes the Overlapping Generation easily understood!!’ I reminded her that in 1975 the ‘ Generation ‘ teaching by the F& D slave then was to be no more than 70 or 80 years . Then in 1995 it was A CONTEMPORARY GENERATION of wicked People until 2010 !
She gave me that WITHERING APOSTATE LOOK!
It’s FRIGHTENING & SCARY how normally reasoning humans can be DUPED!! Very Very SAD !
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Scrubmaster says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:26 am
I always find the overlapping generation funny. Jesus used illustrations his audience of that time could easily understand. Some how I can not see the people Jesus was talking to sitting together and saying to themselves, wait a minute is\was Jesus talking about our generation or a generation which is overlapping with ours? :-)
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Anonymous says:
September 10, 2015 at 9:15 am
You mean this didn’t happen?
http://i.imgur.com/j9wjYEa.jpg
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Scrubmaster says:
September 10, 2015 at 12:00 pm
@ Anonymous – that jpg is hilarious! LOL!
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Idontknowhatodo says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:29 am
This has the air of desperation about it…..
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Nemorino says:
September 10, 2015 at 5:07 am
As the leading JW doctrinician, it appears Splane had to face the music when it came to publicly explain the inexplicable, to defend the indefensible; he drew the short straw.
Can you imagine the reaction to this by an uninitiated audience in a public forum?
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EverydayExplorer says:
September 10, 2015 at 5:33 am
My sentiments too, Nemorino.
What dreadful patronising bilge from yet another GB member.
These words are so far away from a belief in a loving creator. Notice the flippant way he flings away words like ‘famines’, ‘wars’, etc, as if these terms do not signify unimaginable suffering for human beings.
I try not to get overwhelmed by sadness at the cruelty this WT Soc disseminates, but sometimes it’s hard. Then I remember that those of us who are not under its thrall have the power and commitment to keep spotlighting its heinous propaganda. I’m going to keep fighting.
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Robertperez says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:35 pm
God bless, Explorer.
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Jaak says:
September 10, 2015 at 6:48 am
They would swallow it.
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Baby says:
September 10, 2015 at 6:53 am
every truth is like light, its brightness is becoming brighter over time.
(Proverbs 4:18) But the path of the righteous is like the bright morning light That grows brighter and brighter until full daylight
Reply
Excelsior! says:
September 10, 2015 at 7:57 am
Baby,
Welcome back again!
I am still waiting for answers to my questions on a previous topic, please.
Your comment makes no sense. Either something is true or it isn’t.
The scripture in Proverbs you quoted is not talking about Divine Inspiration, but contrasts a righteous with an unrighteous man. What was your point? Simply throwing a scripture down is just not sufficient.
Have you read my comment about Matthew1:17, Baby? What are your thoughts on it?
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
Max says:
September 10, 2015 at 9:10 pm
Baby, your god channel uses Prov. 4:18 as an excuse, period. 100 years from now (and think about it, because the overlapping generation could be another 100 years or more…) they will still be using it. Jesus was an end times preacher, just like the WT is. Do you honestly believe that he was hyping the end times to his live audience knowing that the end would not be for another 1900 plus years? That is what you are inadvertently consenting to believing. If so, then your precious GB could be doing the same thing, stringing you along, hyping the “end of days” in order to gain more converts.
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Robertperez says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:33 pm
ROFL- He drew the short straw
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Excelsior! says:
September 10, 2015 at 5:16 am
Folks,
The definition of a generation is provided in Matthew 1: 17
According to this, there were 14 generations from the Babylonian exile to the birth of Jesus.
If we take the WTBTS’ erroneous date of 607, we count back to 1. 607 divided by 14 is 43.357142 for one generation.
So, if the morons in the WTBTS are correct, Armageddon should have been and gone in 1957!
If we take the correct year for the Banylonian exile of 589, we get a generation of just over 42 years!
Jesus said that the generation who he preached to would see the destruction of Jerusalem, and they did. These events fit into the time frame set out in Matthew 1.
The WTBTS have only themselves to blame! This verse is very easy to calculate from. There is no excuse for their stupid beliefs.
I stole this from Spike R on you tube!
I thought that these governing body members were supposed to be bible scholars? What a joke they all are!
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
Markw1509 says:
September 10, 2015 at 9:47 am
Oh, so true, Excelsior! Thank you for that so basic, so simple reasoning. But it means the R&F have to think for themselves, something they’re not capable of doing. So so glad I can live a life that isn’t under the control of the seven popes.
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Malachi says:
September 10, 2015 at 5:46 am
This is the first time I’ve felt compelled to actually watch one of these broadcasts. It was this whole incomprehensible, contrived redefinition of the word ‘generation’ that broke the camel’s back for me, the redefinition of the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ drove the final nails in the coffin. I asked a friend who has been in Bethel for many years what he thought of it and he shook his head and said ‘who knows’. It should be plainly obvious to any thinking person that if you need to use the word ‘generation’ twice in the definition of the word ‘generation’ something is off. Another fine analysis of the nonsense that the ‘slave’ is force-feeding the blinded, delusional masses. Never lose sight of the fact that we were there once, real truth wants to be heard and hopefully it is only a matter of time when it is all so obvious (like it isn’t already?) that the mass exodus begins. Thanks for your hard work Lloyd!
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Ted says:
September 10, 2015 at 6:08 am
The boat has sunk and they’re flailing about like drowning men,
looking for any piece of the wreck to hang on to.
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Baby says:
September 10, 2015 at 6:52 am
every truth is like light, its brightness is becoming brighter over time.
(Proverbs 4:18) But the path of the righteous is like the bright morning light That grows brighter and brighter until full daylight
Reply
Cedars says:
September 10, 2015 at 7:32 am
Baby, I hate to break it to you but Proverbs 4:18 has nothing to do with prophetic understanding or even reading the bible. In fact there is no bible verse that sets a precedent for God telling his worshipers something that isn’t true merely to tide them over until truth is later revealed.
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Baby says:
September 10, 2015 at 6:43 am
I think you don’t understand nothink at all what Spane said or explain. You only oppose but you understand not. Can you show one verse that contradicts what he said?
You can say the interpretations are not truth, ok, but can you show what you say from the Bible?
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Baby says:
September 10, 2015 at 6:48 am
every truth is like light, its brightness is becoming brighter over time
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 10, 2015 at 6:57 am
@Baby . CAN YOU SHOW IN The BIBLE Where GENERATION MEANS OVERLAPPING????
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anonymous says:
September 10, 2015 at 7:07 am
Baby, I have been in the “truth” for fifty years and I have been keeping up with all the new “light” so can you explain it better than Splane because no, I don’t get it. Obviously you are a whole lot smarter than we are so please explain it so we can understand the overlapping generation and how anybody who was “anointed” by 1992 means that as long as they were anointed by 1992 (or thereabouts) then they fit into the overlapping generations and that means that the Great Tribulation means that it’s about to happen any minute now.
Don’t accuse us of being so stupid that we can’t understand it when you can. Please explain it to us then.
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David says:
September 10, 2015 at 7:19 am
1 Timothy 1:4
or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work–which is by faith.
JW are trying to teach things that are reserved to God showing no respect to God
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Pickled brain says:
September 10, 2015 at 9:25 am
@Baby . YOUR VOCABULARY & GRAMMAR ARE APPALLING!! Where in the Oxford English Dictionary does it contain the word ‘NOTHINK’
Then Again I suppose I should expect this Illogical thinking & Spelling from a SUPPORTER of The GB!!!
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Robertperez says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:42 pm
You forget they are now pushing for home schooling jw youth, lest they be exposed critical thinking and logic. Watchtower 33:78 skool bad boogymen brain big make.
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Searcher says:
September 10, 2015 at 10:08 am
@Baby,
I’m not going to attack your belief or your grammer, but I do want you to think about the following.
The passage in Proverbs Chapter 4 that is often referred to and used so much by the Watchtower leadership is not used in context by the Watchtower. The WT leadership uses a portion of this scripture, not the whole scripture, to reconcile mistakes and lies. The WHOLE scripture when read in context (reading the whole paragraph in which it is contained) is referring to a wise man using wisdom and a fool not heading wisdom. The passage DOES NOT refer to knowledge given in small doses and knowledge that changes over time. Read the whole paragraph and you’ll see what I’m talking about.
With that, understand I am not trying to prove you wrong, but want you to see how the GB and WT leadership use pieces and parts of scripture to deceive the rank and file membership.
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Robertperez says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:45 pm
It’s because your reading the (a) portion of the verse, the (b) is not to be read or the argument falls apart, come on! All speakers know this.
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Mary says:
September 10, 2015 at 10:41 am
Baby asked: “Can you show one verse that contradicts what he said?”
Well actually ya I can. Matthew 24:34 says “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”
Can you show us one verse where Jesus said this “overlapping generation will not pass away”?
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minion says:
September 10, 2015 at 6:44 am
Great commentary, Lloyd, However, I believe theirs more substance needed or lack thereof for the first time visitor to jwsurvey. Looking for the explanition of what they just viewed. Things to research or to question, such as:
1) Chuckie (Charles) T. Russell was born on Feb, 16, 1852. Founder of IBSA aka jw, is he not part of the anointed and why he was not included in the chart?
Is WT Corp trying to separate itself from Chuckie? If so, why?
2) The get out of jail card alluded to, for the failed 1914 predictions. The first time visitor needs to understand why? Because, Chuckie had predicted and was teaching ,the kingdom rule of Jesus started in 1874, and the end of the world or the Big A would come in 1914.
3) They would be rapture to heaven.
4) Then the dates started to move forward, 1918, 1925, 2015, and so forth. And now WT Corp has a big problem explaining something that’s not there, it does not exist. Even though WT Corp believes ‘you don’t know everything about jws’.
5) First time visitor, ever wonder why WT Corp admonishes its followers Not to visit web sites as these – apostates or even the news media? You decide, (the band-aid is about to fall off).
Something interesting for the first time viewer to jwsurvey needs to see and understand, is we are reporting the facts, call it as we see it and You decide. All the friends here are real, the comments are real and sometimes brings tears to your eyes. We don’t make this up.
WT Corp, DaUnexplane cited scripture of Matt.24:34, key words to focus, its right there, you see it, there, its reads “this generation”. Back in the day, just a few weeks ago (lol) in sckool, I was taught singular means singular = one or single, not, wait for it, ” over lapping “. Also too, we are encouraged to always read the context of scripture to understand ” logical thinking “. Jesus also talked with simplicity and using illustrations. I wonder if he used any charts, nah.
Are you convince, does the explanation make any sen$e? Is this another flop from WT Corp?, are these 7 men trying to out wit each other, You decide.
Peace out,
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just asking says:
September 10, 2015 at 6:46 am
Yes, how can you be the boss and hide behind curtains as your subjects enjoy the limelight. They just couldn’t stand it. It was simply too much. Now they’re trying to make an appearance everywhere for conventions.
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Baby says:
September 10, 2015 at 6:50 am
every truth is like light, its brightness is becoming brighter over time.
(Proverbs 4:18) But the path of the righteous is like the bright morning light That grows brighter and brighter until full daylight
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 10, 2015 at 7:01 am
@BABY . THE GB DARKNESS is GETTING DARKER & DARKER !!! LITTLE BABY PROVERB ???
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Excelsior! says:
September 10, 2015 at 8:03 am
Baby,
Simply quoting the same discredited bible passage at people will convince no one of your opinion!
How about your opinion on Matthew 1:17 instead of repetitious comments? You asked us to prove FROM THE BIBLE that Mr Splane is incorrect. I quote FROM THE BIBLE and I would appreciate a response from you on this scripture, NOT another misapplication of a Proverb!
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
I’m afraid that none of us are convinced of your point of view!
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Malachi says:
September 10, 2015 at 3:46 pm
Stop feeding the troll! Since when has any self-respecting true believer JW been capable of critical thinking or logical deduction at any level? ‘Baby’ may as well be a machine, all ‘Baby’ is capable of is parroting the same little phrase over and over like every other JW who is confronted with an unanswerable question or problem that might cause intelligent thought in any other reasonable person capable of thinking without being told what to think. Thought control at its finest!
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Becky says:
September 10, 2015 at 11:28 pm
or in the words of Timbuk3 “The future’s so bright, I gotta wear shades”
Reply
chris benson says:
September 10, 2015 at 6:59 am
Thanks Lloyd another very good article.
Hmmm next time i pass JW cart i get them to try and explain this – its probably a dreaded question that a lot of JWs dont really want
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David says:
September 10, 2015 at 7:16 am
I understand that with time you get better understanding but in the JW case their overlapping generation teaching is outright lie.
Where in the Bible Jesus refers to overlapping generations?
Common sense and Bible knowledge tells that a generation is a period of 37-40 years. So instead that humbly saying that they were wrong they distort deliberately Jesus words over and over again. Shame on the GB!
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Kamael Xevious says:
September 10, 2015 at 7:27 am
I am less than convinced that this teaching does any sort of violence to the English Language. I AM convinced it does violence to the Koine Greek that the gospels were written in. However, it’s patently obvious from one quick glance at the WBTS’s translation of the NT that no one at the WBTS, much less the governing body, actually reads Koine, so I’m not at all surprised.
Reply
Nilsson says:
September 10, 2015 at 7:27 am
There are no such a thing as “The end of the world” as the Jw´s and other totalitarian Cults believe!
Keep yourselves like men who are watching for their master to return from the marriage feast so that, when he comes and knocks, you may quickly open to him. Such watchful servants are blessed by the master who finds them faithful at such a great moment. Then will the master make his servants sit down while he himself serves them. Verily, verily, I say to you that a crisis is just ahead in your lives, and it behooves you to watch and be ready.
“You well understand that no man would suffer his house to be broken into if he knew what hour the thief was to come. Be you also on watch for yourselves, for in an hour that you least suspect and in a manner you think not, shall the Son of Man depart.”
Urantia Book, Paper 165.
Thats right, the Son of man would depart, NOT arrive at this moment. Even though he said he would come again, it certainly will not have to do with “the end of the world” as fundamental Christians believe!
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David says:
September 10, 2015 at 7:31 am
The list of end time predictions and apocalyptic charlatans is huge.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events
The JW are probably the ones with the most failures. All this failures indicates that they are not spirit directed but they are presumptuous.
Deuteronomy 18:22
If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
Reply
DavidR says:
September 10, 2015 at 8:06 am
Side Note: I got stumped when he said that a baby that was born 10 minutes after Joseph died did not live at the same time. I thought JW’s were big on life beginning at inception? So wouldn’t someone who died 10 minutes before Joseph was born or 10 minutes after he died still be part of this generation?
I am stumbled because now the Governing Body doesn’t believe that a baby is alive in the mother’s womb when clearly the scriptures talk about how John the Baptizer leaped in the womb!
Reply
FadingFast says:
September 10, 2015 at 8:37 am
I just want to know what the possible significance is of the diagonally-oriented candy stripes on the chart. Why not vertical? Is the sixty-degree angle a throwback to pyramid geometry? Ha! When was the last time you saw timelines that overlapped in this manner?
Reply
eyes opened says:
September 10, 2015 at 8:42 am
Okay I’m having a moment of silliness here,
So let me get “this” straight…”this” doesn’t mean what I thought “this” meant. I thought “this” meant “to identify a specific person or thing close at hand or being indicated or experienced”. Bro. Splane says “this” generation is something we have to figure out who “this” is. I guess the GB has the authority to change dictionary definitions…haha. So “this” comment is written on “this” blog and “this” is the end. Let the reader use discernment, haha.
Reply
Nemorino says:
September 10, 2015 at 8:53 am
Into which generation would Splane assign someone born AFTER Joseph but who predeceases him?
Reply
Lol says:
September 10, 2015 at 8:58 am
Hey since my parents were in their 20’s and part of the “hippie generation ” I guess since I am alive At the same time as them. I MUST BE PART OF THE HIPPIE GENERATION ? Anyone with half a brain knows that a “generation ” is a spell of time when something or someone was prominent . And for a person it is the main part of their life (20-60 yrs old) I was alive when Elvis was still alive , but I certainly was not part of the “Elvis generation “, no, those people around his age and enjoying his music when he was in his heyday , ARE PART IF HIS GENERATION , not an infant that happened to be born a year or two before he died . I don’t “carry” Elvis’ generation another 50 years WITH ME !!! This is retarded! One of the main reasons I stopped preaching . Can’t instruct others in stuff that is unbelievable
Reply
eyes opened says:
September 10, 2015 at 9:41 am
I forgot to mention that when discussing with an elder about Jesus being given “all” authority, I was told I didn’t have the correct understanding of “all”. So this comment goes out to “all y’all”… I have the same understanding as several of you with respect to Prov. 4:18. When considering surrounding scriptures “this” verse is contrasting the righteous and unrighteous. When sticking to the righteous path it becomes clearer and brighter that it’s the best path to follow. I am unaware of any scriptures that suggest we are to manipulate dates to come to1914. And besides, 2 Chronicles 36:20-21 speaks of the 70 years being fulfilled when the royalty of Persia began to rule and wbts own literature tells us that was in 539 BC that Babylon was captured. That leads to 609 BC. Again why do we think those dates have a bearing on Christ’s rulership? After his resurrection he said he had “all” authority. Also scriptures such as Eph. 1:19-21, Col. 2:10, 1 Pet. 3:22 speak of him having authority over angels, powers, governments and so on. Hebrews 10:13 does speak of him waiting. The way my husband explained this is Christ is waiting to see the results of his kingdom as his word is spread and more and more learn about him. (Leaven in flour illustrating growth of the kingdom, all the while Jesus is in control.) Just as a doctor is in control of your treatment, but when he prescribes medication he must wait to see the results of the treatment. This has helped me to reason on things that could have been quite confusing were I to still have wbts blinders on. The scriptures tell us when there is a turning to God, the veil is removed. I started out fighting these various lines of reasoning. Didn’t always like the conclusions I was reaching but I figured believing unscriptural teachings wasn’t going to benefit me and I do like the freedom I’ve gained. Anyway just a few thoughts I wanted to share. See if anyone else has had similar conclusions.
Reply
Robertperez says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:55 pm
When we start handing out assurances as to what is not obvious in Gods word, we become no better than the subjects of this article. We stop seeing the forest, because the trees are in our way. That has been the downfall of Christianity in all its denominations. Why can’t we do something simple like living by the golden rule and acquiring knowledge of his word as was asked of us and not trying to mold it in any way. Just share Jesus story without the agendas.
Reply
David says:
September 10, 2015 at 10:08 am
If they had the single interpretation of the generation changed many items (something that can be tested) imagine what certainty there can be that their points (which cannot be tested) supporting the 1914 doctrine are true.
There are many interpretations that must be absolutely correct for their organization to be right. If one falls the entire house falls apart.
It is clear that they are investing their lives in a distorted vision destroying the lives of people who have decided to stop believing on a bunch of speculations.
In Jesus words I see intelligence something that I cannot see in the JW.org teachings.
Reply
al etheredge says:
September 10, 2015 at 10:33 am
Hey Cedars, I enjoy your videos but I have a bit of a technical issue. The intros are relatively loud while your speech is very low. Could you balance the audio level a bit? I noticed on the above video that you added subtitles which helps. In case you’re wondering, it’s nowhere near as annoying as the feedback screech we used to get every time the audio was switched on at the kingdom hall. lol
Reply
Cedars says:
September 10, 2015 at 11:50 pm
With early videos the intros and outros were unusually loud. All of my more recent videos have quieter intros/outros.
Reply
Mary says:
September 10, 2015 at 10:45 am
God that was painful to watch. Even if I were still going to the meetings, this one would scream out ‘bullshlt’ and I imagine there are a number of JWs (especially older ones) who must realize what a crock this is.
Reply
Mary says:
September 10, 2015 at 10:52 am
Here’s another example that shows just how ludicrous this ‘overlapping generation’ is: Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother was born in 1900 and died in 2002. Prince William was born in 1982 (I think). His life overlapped with his great-grandmothers. Let us assume that he inherits longevity and lives another 70 years to around the year 2085.
Even though there is 185 years difference between them, if you use Crooklyn’s bizarre logic, that means that Prince William was of the same generation as his great-grandmother. The stupidity of this can hardly be measured yet that is exactly what they’re trying to pawn off as ‘present truth’ right now. And sadly, they’ll be JWs that actually fall for it.
Reply
anonymous says:
September 10, 2015 at 11:33 am
Mary, I can’t think of a better illustration to show what bull***t the overlapping doctrine is!!! I will remember it and use it. And Lol, I love your illustration also!!!
Reply
Idontknowhatodo says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:46 am
Mary….excellent thinking…I think you could outwit David Splane…what a load of nonsense he talks…My mother believed it…my father believed it…my spouse believes it…all my children believe it…and when I asked an elder to explain it he tried…and when I still looked puzzled…he said…I dont really understand it either, but its come from the GB so just accept it…..well Mary now I can explain using your example…I wonder what he will say….
Reply
Reader says:
September 10, 2015 at 11:23 am
I had a look at a Greek interlinear and Strongs 3778,
in the Greek ‘this’ follows ‘generation’.
I am far from expert in Greek that’s why I have these books, but subject to other opinions I see it as ‘this’=’same man’ and/or ‘same woman’?
Reply
david adam says:
September 10, 2015 at 11:26 am
Thanks for the insight.You have helped my wife and me so much.keep up the good work.
Reply
Searcher says:
September 10, 2015 at 11:30 am
Oh this broadcast has pegged the needle on my Baloney Meter! Where do I begin!
First, I would call this in mathematical terms, EXTRAPOLATION. The WEBSTER definition of extrapolation, “In mathematics, extrapolation is the process of estimating, beyond the original observation range, the value of a variable on the basis of its relationship with another variable.” In a sense, Splane is extrapolating the generation to ‘overlap’ another generation. Hmmm. “Estimating beyond the original observation range…”? When a prediction is extrapolated, the inaccuracy of the prediction doesn’t get more accurate; it gets less accurate. Basically, the light isn’t getting brighter, it’s getting dimmer.
Next, Splane jumps to a grand conclusion at about the 7 minute mark after asking many questions and setting up many definitions. He says that all ‘these things’ became apparent in 1914. Again, Hmmmm. He and his ‘contemporaries’ (Including the nut job Freddy Franz) aren’t a good study of actual world history. Nation rising against nation, famines, disease plagues, and the like has been happening since history began and unfortunately will continue as long as there is a human race. NEWS FLASH: It didn’t start in 1914!!!! He goes on to talk down to all others who didn’t have the recognition that ‘these things’ were happening in 1914; as if they were dumb children that couldn’t possibly comprehend such a premonition. This is to say that he, as an overlapping contemporary of the 1914 group, can only discern the Big A is to come ‘soon’.
Lastly, Splane redefines generation with a very roundabout explanation. He starts by baiting the audience to look up a scripture reference to define ‘generation’. Then quickly jumps to the Joseph and his bros explanation. Well, he said it! It must be the right! Right? No! You would have to be smoking dope to buy that explanation. I believe that Excelsior gives us a much more plausible definition of what a biblical generation truly means. Splane’s splainin’ shows the extent these weasels will go to cover their mistakes and deceive the masses.
How could splane actually hold a straight face and just spill this like it was fact? It must actually think that if he says it, then it must be fact. Any thinking person would know this is speculation at best and purposeful deception at worst. How can people actually believe this knucklehead and fellow knucklehead’s (i.e. the Governing Body) have all the answers? The whole thing was absolutely disgusting!
Reply
Searcher says:
September 10, 2015 at 11:39 am
Last paragraph should have said, “HE must actually….” not “It must actually…”
Anyway, you get my drift.
Reply
Ted says:
September 10, 2015 at 11:51 am
They’re desperate to ditch 1914, it’s a noose they’ve made
for their own necks that’s getting tighter all the time and must
eventually finish them off.
But they’re stuck with it. No 1914,= no Parousia, no inspection
of all religions by Jesus, and no choosing of the bible students
( Russellites) as his exclusive channel of communication to all
mankind. No 1914 the whole thing dissolves into thin air.
Ray Franz, in his book, “Crisis of Conscience” chap, 10. Makes
us privy to the GBs, decades long struggle with this problem.
GB members, Karl Klein, and Grant Suiter, proposed moving the
year to 1957 when the Russians sent up the Sputnik ( Signs in the
Sun and Moon ) were cited .
The then president, Nathan Knorr said “I know that Jehovah is God
and that Jesus is his son and that he gave his life as a ransom for us
and that there will be a Ressurection . As for 1914, I don’t if we’re
right, I hope we are !” They were baffled then, and now they’re
desperate.
I can’t help thinking that if any ordinary member had expressed
themselves in the doubtful manner of those GB men and even the
the president, the Supremo. They would have been cut off
and shunned.
Reply
Malachi says:
September 10, 2015 at 3:58 pm
Wrt people bringing this to the attention of the GB two names come to mind: Carl Olof Jonsson who wrote an entire book on the errant chronology of the WTS “Gentile Times Revisited” after he presented to the GB a 100+ page thesis on the subject and Alan Fuerbacher who has written several fine articles on the subject. Both inquired of Brooklyn providing reams of documented research showing how tainted and skewed the society’s chronology is and I know that one if not both have been df’d for not recanting their heresy.
Reply
Robertperez says:
September 10, 2015 at 5:14 pm
They are for fact NOT stuck with 1914, it is dead horse they keep beating for no reason. They didn’t predict the date, so they have no obligation whatsoever to hold to it, other than to keep the whole sky is falling agenda. They could very easily transition into an organization that has collectively learned to wait on God and leave it at that, while keeping the majority of the membership and its enthusiasm for the preaching work. I for one love the preaching, it was the preaching bs that I can’t stomach. I keep my preaching work strictly biblical, praying this organization remembers true north some day.
Reply
ruthlee says:
September 10, 2015 at 12:11 pm
hi there, what mess is this!? i quote a little something for you from Scott Marmion canto6 “Ah dastard fool,” to reason lost,……. Oh, what a tangled web we weave, When first we practise to deceive!. i remember when freddy franz died i was told it was an end of an era because he was the last in the direct line of charlie taze so what.Now we have yet another revision. i reckon JC is having a field day with these ninnies, its becoming laughable . when we were hurt they still had a grip , now they are clowning around well we are eyes wide open and havin a larf ha ha, so kingdom smile anyone? mine’s a large gin and tonic, im smiling.
Reply
Ted says:
September 10, 2015 at 12:14 pm
Maybe they were called, Watchtower Bible and tract society
of Pennsylvania, when they claim they were chosen and not
Bible Students, or Russelites. But most of that group made
up the WTS, What’s in a name ? says Shakespeare.
Reply
iclone says:
September 10, 2015 at 12:33 pm
Enjoyed your article as always Cedars, nice to have you back and sharing your commentaries once again.
I remember when this new teaching first came out, I was discussing it with my fleshly brother who was and still serves as an elder. I expressed my confusion with the WT explanation. My brother said that he doesn’t understand the new teaching and I said, “obviously neither does the GB, it just does not make any sense”. He was offended at my comment and his reply was “well I just don’t question it!” My only reaction was WOW. This pretty much sums up how the rank and file view complex teachings they do not understand. They just go along and do not question with the GB and just accept it with blind faith…dangerous.
Reply
anonymous says:
September 10, 2015 at 12:43 pm
Splane out and out lied when he claimed that the only ones who saw the sign knew something “invisible” was happening. According the the book “Light” volume one by Rutherford published in 1930 said on page 194:
“The Watch Tower, and its companion publications of the Society, for forty years emphasized the fact that 1914 would witness the establishment of God’s kingdom and the complete glorification of the church. During that period of forty years God’s people on earth were carrying on a witness work, which work was foreshadowed by Elijah and John the Baptist. All of the Lord’s people looked forward to 1914 with joyful expectation. When that time came and passed there was much disappointment, chagrin and mourning, and the Lord’s people were greatly in reproach. They were ridiculed by the clergy and their allies in particular, and pointed to with scorn, because they had said so much about 1914, and what would come to pass, and their ‘prophecies’ had not been fulfilled.
……page 196:
“Has the kingdom begun in any sense of the word? (We so believe). We (think) that the light now going forth is under the direction of the Captain of our Salvation. We (think) that the present distress amongst the nations is merely the beginning of this time of trouble.”
That book Light #1 was printed in 1930 (sixteen years after World War #1 broke out) and Rutherford said that they “thought” that the kingdom had begun. They sure don’t sound like they “knew” that the kingdom rule had begun in 1930 but they did look like fools in 1915 when Armageddon didn’t come in 1914 like they had predicted so in order to save face, they came up with the excuse that the rule was “invisible”. Since it was “invisible”, it is so easy to claim it happened since nobody can actually see something that is invisible.
Fred Franz and his brother (Ray Franz’s father) were both baptized in 1913. I bet it was so they’d not be killed at Armageddon in November of 1914 like the Society had predicted. Fred was 20 (not a kid either).
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 10, 2015 at 2:11 pm
@Anonymous. Also in the ‘Light’ Book Rutherford was still holding to Christs Presence being 1874 & it wasn’t until 1943 that Knorr just after Rutherfords Death that Christs Presence changed to 1914 !!
WELCOME To The CRAZY EVER CHANGING INTERPRETATIONs of the ‘CRAZY SEVEN ‘ Men of the GB. !!
Reply
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← Inducing phobias: How the Watchtower uses irrational fears to solidify membership
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David Splane explains the overlapping generation teaching (without actually explaining it)
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Posted on September 10, 2015
David Splane grapples with the "overlapping generation" teaching in a new video
David Splane grapples with the “overlapping generation” teaching in a new video
The September JW Broadcasting episode is now available on tv.jw.org, and for any avid follower of goings-on at Watchtower this month’s offering from the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ is a must-watch.
Governing Body member David Splane addresses his audience on one of the many subjects best swept under the rug by Watchtower – the incomprehensible “overlapping generation” teaching.
Simply put, this teaching (which first appeared in the April 15, 2010 Watchtower) is a hastily-contrived get-out-of-jail-free card for the failed 1914 “this generation” teaching.
For decades Watchtower publications insisted that Armageddon was imminent because, they argued, the generation of anointed Witnesses (who believed they were going to heaven) who witnessed and understood the events of 1914 would not die out before Armageddon arrived.
This claim was based on Matthew 24:34, where Jesus told his followers that the generation that witnessed various apocalyptic signs would not die out until all his words, including the “great tribulation” (the prelude to Armageddon), came true.
So certain was Watchtower of this claim that it even had it included in its masthead for the Awake! magazine…
awake-page-4-generation-masthead-oct-1995-tn
That is, until they quietly changed the masthead to read as follows…
awake-page-4-masthead-nov-1995-tn
Increasingly it became obvious that Watchtower’s self-imposed time limit on Armageddon had expired, because too much time had passed since 1914 for there to be any survivors among Jehovah’s Witnesses old enough to have memories of the outbreak of World War I. In fact, at the time of writing in September 2015, only 50 individuals older than 110 years old are known to still be alive.
“New light” was called for, and in 1995 and 2008 the organization made various stabs at squaring the circle. Paul Grundy has done a great job of documenting these fluctuating “understandings” on his JWfacts resource.
The most recent solution, as proposed by Watchtower in 2010 (and regurgitated by Splane in the above clip), is to essentially embellish Jesus’ words by suggesting that “this generation” doesn’t have to be just one generation, but can be two.
The first “group” of “this generation” would witness and understand the events of 1914, and the second group would be those who were born before the last individuals in the first group died (hence an “overlapping” generation).
If you don’t understand this, it is not due to any failure on your part. It is because it doesn’t make sense. The teaching rides roughshod over the English language, redefining what “generation” means, and relying on the audience to willfully bypass their logical thinking skills by asserting the incomprehensible as indisputable truth.
After all, if you can arbitrarily insist that a generation can be composed of two groups, why not have three, four, five – on into infinity? The word “generation” quickly loses all meaning.
The wisest course of action for Watchtower would have been to either distance itself from the “overlapping generation” teaching as a well-meaning slip-up (perhaps by arguing “this generation” was figurative rather than literal), or ignore the matter altogether.
Instead, the Governing Body apparently concluded that a 12-minute video presentation rehashing the teaching, complete with diagram and stick pointer, was just what the doctor ordered.
Their mistake is an inevitable byproduct of their delusion and bullish devotion to their own contrived dogma. It is, to my mind, further proof that the Governing Body are not cynical con-men but really do believe their own nonsense – and expect us to believe it too. Otherwise, they would have steered clear of the subject entirely, and spoken about something more compelling and universally appealing.
In addition to this obvious faux pas, I am also delighted at David Splane’s performance, which wreaked of cheesiness and insincerity…
As a side note – Splane is among three Governing Body members (together with Herd and Losch) who have apparently opted to deliver their JW Broadcasting episodes alongside “helpers” from the various Governing Body committees. The other Governing Body members (Lett, Morris, Sanderson and Jackson) tend to appear by themselves. I can’t help but question Splane’s decision to appear with a co-host, since he is in my view one of the more competent, persuasive speakers on the Governing Body. His uneasy interactions with his co-host only serve to undo the forcefulness of his individual presentation.
A costly mistake
When JW Broadcasting was first announced 11 months ago I said at the time it was great news. The worst thing the Governing Body could possibly do was reveal themselves to their doting followers. It is far easier to respect and admire your leaders when you can’t see or hear them. Having them thrusted at your TV screen or computer monitor in all their bumbling, arrogant, senile, jewelry-flashing glory changes the whole dynamic.
Yes, we have seen some extremely potent pieces of indoctrination designed to pull on the heart strings and appeal to people’s emotions. The standard episode will feature at least one visually appealing interview segment with powerful imagery and stirring music, in which a loyal Witness tears up as he or she relates how Jehovah’s hand has come to their rescue against all odds.
I will continue to do my best to expose these clearly coercive methods in my JW Broadcasting rebuttal videos. But I am growing increasingly confident that to any sincere, intellectually honest Witness capable of rudimentary reasoning skills, no rebuttals are needed. The delusion, absurdity and self-indulgence speaks for itself.
new-cedars-signature3
Further reading…
◾Friendly Atheist article
◾To see a list of video rebuttals to JW Broadcasting episodes, click here.
◾To read the JWfacts page on changes to the generation teaching, click here.
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358 Responses to David Splane explains the overlapping generation teaching (without actually explaining it)
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Dream Catcher says:
September 10, 2015 at 3:22 pm
“But I am growing increasingly confident that to any sincere, intellectually honest Witness capable of rudimentary reasoning skills, no rebuttals are needed. The delusion, absurdity and self-indulgence speaks for itself.”
Cedars I wish this statement to be true but you have been out to long. Most JW view the monthly broadcast as coming from heaven itself, and the majority will view Splanes explanation as if actually recorded in the gospels.
Reply
Cedars says:
September 10, 2015 at 3:51 pm
I didn’t say “majority.” Read it again.
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Ted says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:03 pm
The ultimate special offer, 2 generations for the price of 1.
Only available from JW.org, hurry to avoid disappointment
offer ends soon.
Silly I know. But there’s nothing sensible to say about it.
Reply
Garrett says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:17 pm
But wait Ted! There’s more!
Not only do you get 2 generations for one ….
But! If you order before midnight you get the full
set of John the Baptist steak knives . Holy Cow!
And for the first 1000 callers you get the 3 wise men spice rack stocked with feankinsence and Murr.
Be the envy of your guests.
Call now 1-800-WATCHTOWER
Order now !
Reply
Robertperez says:
September 10, 2015 at 5:19 pm
Ok……. your drunk, go home.
Reply
Ted says:
September 10, 2015 at 5:20 pm
Someone’s been holding out on me Garret, I didn’t know
about all these other goodies , but I’m getting a little bit
suspicious. My dad, bless his soul, always told me.
If anything sounds too good to be true, you can bet your
bottom dollar, it bloody well is. LOL.
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JB Reezner says:
September 10, 2015 at 5:27 pm
Greetings, folks. This is my first post. Check my math on this: If you’re born 10 minutes after Joseph dies, you’re NOT part of Joseph’s generation. Hmm… But what if you’re born 10 minutes BEFORE somebody dies who was born BEFORE Joseph and simply outlived him? You would NOT be part of Joseph’s generation, but you WOULD be part of someone’s generation who was born BEFORE him? David, you got some more Splanin’ to do… Weeeee! Critical thinking is fun. I just hate that I waited until I was in my 40’s to try it, lol. Yes, “lol” to keep from crying…
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JB Reezner says:
September 10, 2015 at 7:56 pm
Hmm, my first comment may be too clumsy of a thought to hold up to any scrutiny. My actual point is only to highlight the problem with the contrived SPECIFICITY of the GB’s definition of “generation”. It would’ve been better (slightly less terrible) if they would’ve simply said in 1995 that “this generation” refers to the people exhibiting the behaviors mentioned in the Bible regarding the time of the end, and left it open-ended. Although that too would’ve been an unconventional interpretation of “generation”, it would not have been as reprehensible as their bizarre, self-serving, total reimagining of the word. But, either way, they (the GB) are a rotten, deluded, self-righteous lot. Whenever they shoot themselves in the foot, it is a very welcome thing.
Sorry for replying to myself. I’m still dusting off the cobwebs of an underused brain.
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Pickled brain says:
September 10, 2015 at 11:56 pm
@ JB Breezner. Don’t Worry about your first comment. I thought it was very good & not clumsy. WHAT IS CLUMSY is DAVID SPLANES DESCRIPTION of the GENERATION DOCTRINE!! I would even call it an UTTER CONFUSED SHAMBOLIC MESS!
Sorry if I haven’t been CLEAR ENOUGH about my description of the ‘MOST HOLY ANOINTED ??? KING & HIGH PRIEST DAVID SPLANE’
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JB Reezner says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:31 pm
LOL, that’s well said about Splane, Pickled brain! I agree wholeheartedly. And I thank you for the kind words regarding my comment.
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Ruth says:
September 11, 2015 at 12:38 am
Or maybe they could use the fact that the generation that saw Jesus’ miracles did see the end of the Jewish system including the temple. (Jesus’ ministry ended 33 AD and Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD.) There is a comment in Matt 24:48 that the end would appear, from our point of view, to be delayed. Something has to give sometime – global warming will destroy us otherwise.
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JB Reezner says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:57 pm
Yes ma’am, that too would be better (less terrible) than the nonsense they settled on. As I look back, one of the things that freaks me out the most is that my goofy brain so readily accepted CONSTANT emphasis on how “no one can know the day and hour”, while AT THE SAME TIME being incessantly reminded that Armageddon is coming TOMORROW! BOTH messages being sent by the SAME source! Jeeez, I was a poster boy for cognitive dissonance.
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Dblaron42 says:
September 11, 2015 at 7:57 pm
Welcome back to the real world. I am still dusting off my brain…3 years later.. But, truly there aren’t many things that give one the satisfaction that using their critical thinking skills does. See? That sentence makes no sense. But I don’t mind. Done keeping up appearances.
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Garrett says:
September 10, 2015 at 10:36 pm
Welcome JB Reezner!!!!
I do hope you at least brought the chips and salsa?
Don’t fail us right after your first post!
Did you bring Twinkies?
Best of wishes and glad to have you with us!
Thanks for your comments.
Garrett
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JB Reezner says:
September 11, 2015 at 2:15 pm
“Gracias” for the kind welcome, Garrett! I have no chips or salsa. I thought I’d get emails when people add to this post after I signed up, but I didn’t. I probably goofed something up. Anyway, that’s my excuse for not getting back to you SOONER. I will assume that, by now, you are warm and well fed and not needing my leftover scrambled eggs from lunch, lol.
Thanks again. I have been enjoying this site and the conversations taking place here for a few months now.
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Excelsior! says:
September 11, 2015 at 3:51 am
JB Reezner,
Welcome to JW Survey, and all of us lovely people who comment here!
I thought your comment was spot on. I hope that your awakening from the undue influence goes smoothly and welcome to your freedom!
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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JB Reezner says:
September 11, 2015 at 5:43 pm
Thank you, Excelsior! I have been enjoying the excellent information (and brilliant presentation of it) offered by this site very much. The fascinating conversations and heartening camaraderie I find in the comments section is icing on the cake.
My awakening has been going fairly smoothly. My last meeting was 5 years ago. Fully awake within a year or so of that. A nice slow fade since then.
Thanks again, and peace be with you too!
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JimmyG says:
September 10, 2015 at 6:32 pm
Splane says; “Who in 1914 were the only ones who saw the various aspects of the sign and drew the right conclusion? That something invisible was occurring? Only the anointed.”
Really? Prior to, up to and beyond 1914 they believed that the last days began in 1799, that Christ’s presence began in 1874 and his heavenly enthronement occurred in 1878. That doesn’t sound to me like they ‘drew the right conclusion’. Either Splane and his cronies don’t know their own history or they are lying. I suspect the latter.
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ScotWm says:
September 10, 2015 at 8:38 pm
The Watchtower’s asinine overlapping generation teaching is a desperate attempt to defend the long-expired 1914 cornerstone date. When David Splane gave the names of the first generation of anointed leaders, who recognized the sign of Christ’s presence in 1914, he left out the Watchtower’s founding father, Charles Taze Russell. However, Pastor Russell was 1914’s biggest cheerleader. Therefore, new light is needed to illuminate why the Governing Body threw Pastor Russell under the bus and left him out of the Watchtower faithful slave hall of fame:
The Watch Tower board of directors, known as the Governing Body, has claimed in their publications for the last 90 years that they and the remnant of the 144,000 are the modern version of the faithful and discrete slave, including their founding father, Charles Taze Russell. But until further notice, Pastor Russell has lost his previous status of being part of the slave class: “Were the Bible Students in the years that lead up to 1914 the appointed channel through which Christ would feed his sheep? No. They were still in the growing season, and the arrangement for a channel to provide spiritual food was taking shape. The time had not yet come for the weedlike imitation Christians to be separated from the true Christian wheat.” (Watchtower July 15, 2013 study edition p.19)
On the bright side, Pastor Russell does receive honorable mention for establishing the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society: “During the decades leading up to 1914, C. T. Russell and his close associates did a work like that of John the Baptizer. That vital work involved restoring Bible truths. The Bible Students taught the true meaning of Christ’s ransom sacrifice, exposed the hellfire lie, and proclaimed the coming end of the Gentile Times.” (Watchtower July 15, 2013 study edition p.11, p 6).
Having the Governing Body strip Pastor Russell of his former faithful slave status is the equivalent of having the Catholic Church claim that Saint Peter wasn’t really the first pope.
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Max says:
September 10, 2015 at 8:46 pm
One of the shocking things about this presentation is that there is NO mention at all of C.T. Russell! They have completely thrown him away.
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ScotWm says:
September 10, 2015 at 10:03 pm
Max says: “… there is NO mention at all of C.T. Russell!”
The Watchtower’s asinine overlapping generation teaching is a desperate attempt to defend the long-expired 1914 cornerstone date. When David Splane gave the names of the first generation of anointed leaders, who recognized the sign of Christ’s presence in 1914, he left out the Watchtower’s founding father, Charles Taze Russell. However, Pastor Russell was 1914’s biggest cheerleader. Therefore, new light is needed to illuminate why the Governing Body threw Pastor Russell under the bus and left him out of the Watchtower faithful slave hall of fame:
The Watch Tower board of directors, known as the Governing Body, has claimed in their publications for the last 90 years that they and the remnant of the 144,000 are the modern version of the faithful and discrete slave, including their founding father, Charles Taze Russell. But until further notice, Pastor Russell has lost his previous status of being part of the slave class: “Were the Bible Students in the years that lead up to 1914 the appointed channel through which Christ would feed his sheep? No. They were still in the growing season, and the arrangement for a channel to provide spiritual food was taking shape. The time had not yet come for the weedlike imitation Christians to be separated from the true Christian wheat.” (Watchtower July 15, 2013 study edition p.19)
On the bright side, Pastor Russell does receive honorable mention for establishing the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society: “During the decades leading up to 1914, C. T. Russell and his close associates did a work like that of John the Baptizer. That vital work involved restoring Bible truths. The Bible Students taught the true meaning of Christ’s ransom sacrifice, exposed the hellfire lie, and proclaimed the coming end of the Gentile Times.” (Watchtower July 15, 2013 study edition p.11, p 6).
Having the Governing Body strip Pastor Russell of his former faithful slave status is the equivalent of having the Catholic Church claim that Saint Peter wasn’t really the first pope.
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dontknowwheretogo says:
September 11, 2015 at 2:22 am
Thing is…Judge Rutherford was EVEN worse than Charlie boy for crazy doctrines and strange things thus they can wipe out CTR as being the FDS but not Rutherford…
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ScotWm says:
September 11, 2015 at 8:44 am
RE: “Judge” Rutherford’s crackpot prophecies, such as this little gem:
“The indisputable facts, therefore, show that the “time of the end” began in 1799; that the Lord’s second presence began in 1874.” — Watchtower 1922 Mar 1 p.73.
If the Lord’s second presence hadn’t been moved up to 1914, the new light, which explains the overlapping generations, might have been introduced soon after Freddy Franz’ 1975 armageddon prophesy failed to materialize.
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eyes opened says:
September 11, 2015 at 7:13 am
In the wbts own Insight books I believe they say a generation is about 33 yrs. So 33, 40 or anything there about is a long way from overlapping. Others have commented about using the Bible only. Yes my husband and I do too. Our ministry is also informal. Just nice conversations with people that we can commend and encourage. No telling them what they should or shouldn’t do. The sermon on the mount contains Jesus teachings on how to live a good life. That’s what we strive for and that’s what we see in others. Our job is one where we deal with the public and most of the people we meet in my experience try to lead honest and kind lives and they truly care about others. We no longer support the us versus them mentality. We do go to meetings occasionally but we have very little in common anymore. BTW the book Crisis of Conscience is an excellent read and so is his follow up book as well. Should be required reading before anyone gets baptized, haha.
Best Regards
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Fatchance says:
September 11, 2015 at 5:24 am
Technically Russel was not a JW he was a Bible student. Rutherford didn’t just change the name to “JW” he actually branched off. Here is a link to the still existing International Bible Students.
http://www.internationalbiblestudents.com/about.html
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ScotWm says:
September 11, 2015 at 9:29 am
RE: “Rutherford didn’t just change the name to “JW” he actually branched off.”
I’m assuming that Joseph Rutherford had some bible knowledge. Therefore, I have always wondered how he decided on the name he chose for his cult. These quotes are taken directly from the latest Watchtower bible rewrite:
There’s this one:
“You are my witnesses,” declares Jehovah, “Yes, my servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and have faith in me And understand that I am the same One. Before me no God was formed, And after me there has been none. (Isaiah 43:10)
And then there’s this one, where Paul is discussing the teachings of Jesus:
So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction. But you will receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you, and you will be witnesses of me in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samari and to the most distant part of the earth.” (Acts 1: 6-8)
Rutherford chose “Jehovah’s Witnesses.” But he could just as easily have chosen “Jesus’ Witnesses.”
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RC says:
September 12, 2015 at 1:17 am
Thanks Fatchance,
That is truly a treasure trove of early Watchtower teachings. Now let my cousin prove that these teachings were of Satan.
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Awake! says:
September 10, 2015 at 9:12 pm
I prefer All Along the Watchtower by Jimi Hendrix. A lot better than living in a Purple Haze!
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DJ says:
September 10, 2015 at 9:55 pm
Hi guys. I’m, unfortunately, a baptized JW. Now knowing myself and from experience, I have a very good intuitive mind and usually I’m right. I know JWs are mislead and I have a feeling that JWs are going to fall in the future. What bothers me snd has been for quite some time is what if they were right, and this thought only pops in my head because the people in my hall and the elders are so obsessed with the idea of the “stem of things” coming to an end. I recently had to meet with two elders because of an incident that happened in April. One of the elders I’ve known most my life because his son is like my little brother. But interesting during this meeting, what they kept saying sounded so rehearsed, like these thoughts were not theirs. I see it so much after reading JW Survey articles that these people are brainwashed. They just follow whatever they are told and I hate it. Also just now I told my sister my dresm of becoming a pilot. She then asked me how will I have time for meetings snd my job because of the schedule, and it doesn’t sound like her. Oh if she knew heh how I truly felt. Mr. Evans I really want to thank you and all of you for your posts. I’ve researched and in this “New World Translation” abomination. They make it seem like you all are false prophets that their bible talks about and how you all are against Jesus. But I realize that you all love your families and wantbthe best and you guys have your own beliefs. I believe that we are humans and we will act like so and the world today isn’t as bad as the early 1900’s and below. I don’t believe God is truly cruel. The one idea that keeps me knowing that he is real is space itself ya know? Like that couldn’t just exist because if it did that means God could exist right? Look you all keep living your lives because it’s too short to be brainwashed and following others orders. Just be happy guys because I believe truly God will make life for all of us better. Somehow he will because he is God. Just live your life and be happy. Sorry my post is so long I just have a lot on my chest right now.
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jon says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:15 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eo1O5qMaGU
See the youtube link to discover exactly how they came up with this new doctrine.
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anonymous says:
September 11, 2015 at 2:53 am
jon, that video is hilarious!!! Thanks for sharing.
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JB Reezner says:
September 11, 2015 at 6:10 pm
That video almost KILLED me, I was laughing so hard! Thanks, I needed that.
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ruthlee says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:22 am
Oh no how about a BOGOF (for the uninitiated buy one get one free) i still think the GB should have a lottery and the prize Everlasting life,. 2nd prize Eternal witnessing and a booby prize a tour of Crooklyn no expenses paid. seriously this maybe the deathstroke. im in a dilemma i still go preaching but ive stopped the drivel stuff i use my Bible only, actually im looking for Christians not JWS they can find thier own way there my dear old dad, if he were not pushing up daisies he would be spinning right now. had such belief in this bonkers religion im actually glad to be around now the way things are panning out is so interesting please keep the comments coming. the explanation about a generation being abot 40 years by one of the commenters is so logical the best explanation yet .who really wants to eat spoiled spiritual food only those so starved of healthy nourishing sustainance would raid the garbage can and scoff themselves.bread and wine anyone my place is fine.ruthlee
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Pickled brain says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:52 am
@ruth lee . I like your STYLE! I think the BOOBY PRIZE should be a Place in HEAVEN with the 7 MUSKETEERS!! BOY!! That would be HELL!!
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ruthlee says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:23 pm
tee hee pickled brain
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Excelsior! says:
September 11, 2015 at 4:09 am
Ruthlee,
It’s great to read that you and Mr Perez are using your bibles only.
Although I am an atheist, I acknowledge that there are some positive messages in the bible, and many folks find it beneficial to have a faith.
I would encourage all of us to examine the world scientifically and critically.
Any Truth can withstand even the most critical scrutiny.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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Jake says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:25 am
Surely the Watchtowers generation teaching is a nonsense. Could it be easily argued, in the context of the of the 1st century generation, that the generation who “witnessed all these things” began with uprising of the Jewish nation against the Romans in 66 C.E.?
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Mc fan says:
September 11, 2015 at 2:29 am
Has anyone been to the Website of the International BIble Students Assosiation? They claim that they have never had anything to do with JWs. They also claim that Bible Students did not evolve into JWs. They are 2 separate movements. If Jesus chose the BIble Students in 1919(as JWs did not exist yet) than why are not all JWs BIble students. Are JWs the original apostates of the IBSA?
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anonymous says:
September 11, 2015 at 2:59 am
Mc fan, yes they are the original apostates of the IBSA but you have to have awakened to the real truth about the truth to realize that.
Last night I woke up in the night with yet another nightmare about trying to tell a former “friend” about the real truth about the truth.
When do the nightmares end? I hate that religion more than anybody can possibly know that is unless you are going through the same thing so that you know what I am talking about.
I wished I could move away from here to start all over again but I can’t leave because I’d be leaving behind one of my children who are still in the cult.
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Excelsior! says:
September 11, 2015 at 3:48 am
anonymous,
I’m sorry to read about your nightmare, dear Lady.
Maybe it’s time for a break from all this? There are many of us here, and we can take up any slack.
You don’t owe anyone anything, and if this is making you upset, then there’s no shame in taking a break or walking away.
I for one do not judge anyone for what they do or don’t do in the battle against the WTBTS.
Take care of yourself, and I hope that you find some comfort from your pain.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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anonymous says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:47 pm
@Excelsior. Thank you for the kind thoughts. I think what I am going through is Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. I have heard other people talk about it and I think that that is what I am experiencing and all of us who are experiencing waking up from the indoctrination are probably suffering from the same thing.
We wouldn’t have to suffer like this if we weren’t in a cult that expels any of us who would speak out so that we could warn our loved ones and friends but we can’t. That is what makes it so hard on us and that is what the Society has planned for us to punish us for speaking out. It is evil and sadistic but that is what they want and I will not let it conquer me.
I come to read comments here all through the day and it’s those comments are what get me through the day.
I wished I could just walk away from the JW religion and live my life and be happy without all those former “friends” but I do think the only way people can walk away from it is to move far, far away where nobody can hound you about it into “coming” back but probably for most of us, that isn’t possible.
So, this web site is really a life saver for me and I am sure for a lot of other people such as myself also.
Thanks Cedars for thinking of doing this web site and keeping it up!!! I am so grateful to you and your family for everything you have done here.
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Pickled brain says:
September 11, 2015 at 9:19 pm
@Anonymous . EXCELLENT COMMENTS. Yes MANIPULATION by 7 EVIL MEN!!
JESUS CHRIST NEVER NEVER SHUNNED ANYONE!! Jesus spoke to the Pharisees continuously EVEN though they had Twisted the Scriptures so they ignored Love,Justice&Mercy !!
Jesus didn’t ignore Judas .He carried on speaking to him right through the ‘Last Supper’ & allowed Judas to associate with the rest of the Apostles!! NO SHUNNING of JUDAS by JESUS!!
Take care Anonymous! Keep on speaking out! MANY JWs are READING THIS SITE! & YES CEDARS (Lloyd) is DOING A BRILLIANT SERVICE TO HUMANITY in Highlighting WATCHTOWER ABUSE!!
Markw1509 says:
September 11, 2015 at 2:29 am
Wasn’t the original fulfilment of this Matt 24 prophesy in the first century? Didn’t Jesus mean the generation that saw the destruction of Jerusalem would not pass away? Didn’t that take place 37 years after Jesus’ death?
If that was the first fulfilment, how come the second fulfilment (parallel to the first) has a totally different meaning?
If the first fulfilment had an overlapping-generation meaning, maybe Jerusalem wouldn’t have been destroyed until around 140AD.
Just thinking….
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David says:
September 11, 2015 at 3:19 am
If this generation in the first century fulfilment was 37 years why in the second fulfilment (it their speculation is right) it can be 160 years? This is total madness, is putting your entire trust in the hands of other men. This can happen because they do not study their own history which is full of speculation and wishful thinking.
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Pickled brain says:
September 11, 2015 at 9:28 pm
@David . YOUR ANALYSIS HAS NAILED the UTTER FOOLISHNESS of Following 7 MEN in BROOKLYN & Not just Following OUR OWN REASONING & Particularly our OWN BIBLE TRAINED CONSCIENCES instead of Following the FLIP FLOP CONSCIENCES of 7 EVIL MEN who tried to HIDE CHILD ABUSE BY ELDERS by Not Reporting one Case out of 1006 JW Child Abusers in Australia as Highlighted by the Royal Commission instead the Watchtower has been Paying TENS of MILLIONS in Compensation to Victims to Silence them! ABSOLUTELY SICKENING!! JESUS WOULD be ASHAMED of these 7 EVIL MEN !
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ruthlee says:
September 11, 2015 at 5:00 am
thanks for all the kind words to me. to anon i really understand you wanting to move away i too would like to do this but i have kids in school still trying gently not to promote being unbtzd pubs im stalling for time its so difficult but this site is the voice of reason and non judgement. we are all wiiling to hear what others have to say so plod on like me doing the discreet thing at the moment .i reckon if God is running the show (of life) He will make it very plain when it is time to jump ship peace and love to you, ruthlee
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John freeman says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:17 pm
I also think i will have to jump ship.
Have been in since 60s i have now woken up . Most of my family are jw including wife . So i have similar problem. I have faded but still take wife to meetings . Its hard to sit throgh it now i notice all the mind control methods now i dont care much if members of cong shun me but worry how to deal with wife and close family . I get so depressed having to sit at meetings and listen to the nonsense . I have told her the time is coming when ill drop her off and pick up latter . It ses although i am mentaly free i feel even more trapped now i know what a complete waste of time it is.
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Ocma says:
September 11, 2015 at 7:58 pm
John, I know how you feel.
After leaving, and having not attended a meeting in over a year, I agreed to attend a special meeting with my mother, I think it was 2008, where the congregation listened to a brother from the GB give a talk via the phone loop (I can’t remember which one).
The entire thing was painfully boring. I don’t remember him saying anything special, nothing new. Hardly worth all the excitement the brothers and sisters were showing before the meeting started.
I am still amazed that after that last attendance, that I was never requested to meet with the elders.
I stood during the 3 songs, but did not sing and wouldn’t even look at the song book my mum was trying to share with me.
My mum passed me a bible, I placed it on the ground, I didn’t care to follow along. I know people were watching me. And I know it was obvious to everyone that I did not want to be there.
When I walked out that day, I knew, I would never go back. Not for a memorial to keep people happy, not for a funeral, not for money! Once you wake up, it’s a brain killing, soul destroying place to be. I hope you can fade quietly with no hassle from your family.
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Pickled brain says:
September 11, 2015 at 9:36 pm
@John Freeman . I am in a Similar Situation as you . & when you realise the MANIPULATION TECHNIQUES Used Especially on TV.JW.Org with the EMOTIONAL MUSIC in the BACKGROUND & at Least one JW voice Quivering near to tears ! You can see These 7 MEN are Very CRAFTY & will APPEAL to the EMOTIONALLY VULNERABLE!! VERY VERY SAD !
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Grace says:
September 11, 2015 at 11:03 pm
I really feel for you guys, those feelings you talk about were dominating my life before the ARC.
I wish that you could have your own Royal Commission or something similar. I’m so thankful for it happening here as it has freed me to go out & live my life again. I’ve been going to the local shopping centre a fair bit lately & have not run into one Witness there. I stopped going there because it didn’t matter what time or day, there would always be someone there. Not lately, they seem to have disappeared of the face of the earth.
My husband & I haven’t even seen them out witnessing or manning the cart (which is only allowed to be put at the KH by council). They seem to be very quiet here at the moment & it’s a small community, they normally stand out here.
I’m actually wondering how many are questioning their faith here. It may have gone quiet but I think the seeds have been planted & it’s just a matter of time for it grow.
It has given me so much more confidence with the thought of running into someone & not letting them affect me anymore. I’ve been ready to say something if they’re game enough to talk to me.
Reply
Excelsior! says:
September 12, 2015 at 5:14 am
Grace,
Fantastic news! I am so happy that you were able to have your right to a normal day, going where you wanted to go and do what you wanted to do.
The ARC has inoculated a lot of people to the WTBTS. Let’s hope your physical freedom continues!
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Dblaron42 says:
September 12, 2015 at 8:44 pm
Aye John. I was so in your shoes. Unfortunately my ex would not or could not admit their tomfoolery. I gave her the choice. Me or the rubbish that gets crammed down their throats. She chose poorly.
Reply
Daniel Roberts says:
September 11, 2015 at 5:47 am
How does the GB explain this then if the word ‘generation’ means 2 groups of people overlapping in lifespan?
From Matthew 1.17
All the generations, then, from Abraham until David were 14 generations; from David until the deportation to Babylon, 14 generations; from the deportation to Babylon until the Christ, 14 generations.
Can’t be any clearer.. this scripture rams home how generation is intended to be understood.
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 11, 2015 at 9:42 pm
@ Daniel . YOU ARE SO RIGHT!! MATTHEW EXPLAINS ‘ GENERATION ‘ Perfectly! Make it COMPLICATED that the Ordinary JW Can’t Understand & one sister says she just leaves everything to the GB to work out !! SAD, SAD & SAD!
What about 1 John ch.4 v1,2 where it says ‘TEST EVERY INSPIRED EXPRESSION ‘ Even more so Uninspired ones ??
Reply
Daniel Roberts says:
September 12, 2015 at 3:08 pm
Totally. So much for the Boreans.. seeing if these things are true…. Honestly I think that the JW way of life appeals to the human ego. The whole “we are right – we are chosen – we are special -You are not”
Admitting you are wrong and have been for many years is too much for some people and they would rather continue to delude themselves.. even though they know that it is a delusion.
Reply
It'sJustMe says:
September 11, 2015 at 6:00 am
Their smiles on their tv.jw, I mean the smile of all the seven members of the governing body is anything but natural. Where does their strange and constraint smile come from ? Has their heavenly crown become too heavy for each of them ? Or does it come from their inherent hypocrisy ? Or maybe is it due to the fact that before they are TV speaking they have swallowed an huge anti-depressant, inciting them not to call into question the new lights they are disclosing to their co-domestics greedy for new spiritual food ?
Reply
Richard says:
September 11, 2015 at 7:28 am
Their asses must be sore from pulling out that massive turd. How any half-way intelligent human being can fall for this obvious scam is beyond me. You must really be brainwashed to not see the obvious lies at this point.
Reply
James Broughton says:
September 11, 2015 at 8:33 am
Well done Lloyd. Cedars at his best when exposing the organisation for what it is. A sham.
Reply
Exhausted says:
September 11, 2015 at 8:46 am
The Society should put out a booklet entitled ” The Generations Theory for Dummies”. Because that is
Exactly what it looked like to me. They could have tag
Lines like…. The book that keeps on ticking… Or How
Loooonnnngggg can we pull it off???? How about Is
Your generation as flexible as ours?
I also like “LUCY…You got some splaining to do!!!”
Anyhow it couldn’t be any worse.
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 11, 2015 at 9:55 am
@Exhausted. HOW ABOUT ‘ The Who’ ‘ MY GENERATION ‘ song & one of the verses in the Song is ….,’I HOPE I DIE Before I GET OLD’!!!!
How about’ I hope I die Before the GB come up with NEW LIGHT on the ‘ Generation ”
The BIGGEST DUMMIES are the Rank & File who fall for their CHOP& CHANGE DRIVEL !!
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 11, 2015 at 7:28 pm
Hilarious, Pickled brain! And now all I can hear in my head is David Splane trying to explain “generation” with the same speed freak stutter that Roger Daltrey uses in the song, haha. “Brother F-F-F-Franz was born in eighteen nuh-nuh-nuh ninety three”.
Reply
Ted says:
September 11, 2015 at 9:01 am
Robertperez,
Hi again Robert , In a previous post I said the GB were stuck
with 1914. You replied, “They didn’t predict the date, so they
have no obligation whatsoever to hold to it. I agree, 1914 did
not originate with the present GB.
They did not father the child, but they definitely “Adopted it.
( “There is more evidence for 1914 than for Gravity or electricity”
A recent comment by Stephen Lett.). Wouldn’t you say then
that they do have an obligation to hold to it? Not that, that will
prevent them from abandoning it, if they think it’s advantageous.
As you suggest, they could morph into a “Keep preaching and
leave the rest to JHVH, mindset. Some recent talks and articles
indicate that’s the direction they’re taking.
I can only see the growth rate plummeting, in my long experience
in the religion, I’ve noticed very few have the same enthusiasm for
the preaching work as you do.
What’s kept the bros, knocking on doors and being told to F, Off
or I’ll set the dogs on you, etc, Has been the teaching, of the
need to work your passage through the imminent slaughter of
Armageddon and into a new world. All based on the 1914
doctrine. As I’ve said already, it’s a noose around their necks
that’s getting tighter.
Reply
ScotWm says:
September 11, 2015 at 9:50 am
Stephen Lett likened the invisible 1914 kingdom to other invisible things, such as gravity, electricity and wind. What more proof do we need?
The Watchtower’s Governing Body has definitely adopted the 1914 teaching and will go to whatever lengths deemed necessary in order to defend it.
The Watchtower (Simplified Edition) January 2014 featured an article entitled “100 Years of Kingdom Rule—How Does It Affect You?”, which uses plenty of out of context scriptures to fully explain the 1914 doctrine to those with simple minds. Read all about it here:
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/ws20140115/100-years-kingdom-rule/
Reply
al etheredge says:
September 11, 2015 at 11:28 am
Yes, they could opt out of the repetitive rounds of predictions (and failures) with this new doctrine, but I don’t think they will. They are too attracted to the increased membership and donations such predictions bring about.
Reply
Steve McRoberts says:
September 11, 2015 at 10:41 am
Great comments, and excellent points! I just read them all, but two things I didn’t see mentioned, so I’ll add my two cents:
1. Contrary to what Splane claims, Franz et al., did not “understand” the significance of 1914 at the time; they expected it to be the END of the last days — not their start.
2. Splane asks: “What did Joseph and his brothers have in common?” Um… a father? They were of the same “generation” because they had been “generated” out of Jacob’s “loins.” It’s quite a stretch to apply this to “anyone alive at the same time.” That is not what “generation” has meant to anyone — ever!
I’d better never hear a Witness complaining about “the generation gap”; there can be no generation gap when everyone alive is of the same generation. (I wonder if there have been any WT/Awake articles on the generation gap; these will be old light now!)
Reply
Exhausted says:
September 11, 2015 at 10:50 am
In Ray,s book, I forget which one of the governing body
Members it was, but he was frustrated with the whole thing and made the comment that we got that from the
Adventists. I remember that because it stunned me at
The time to read such a revelation as that, having grown
Up in the truth. I had never heard of any connection to
Adventists, Millerites, or whatever other leanings CTR
Had up his sleeve. Pyramidology was never mentioned
During my lifetime, nor was Beth Sarim, or 1874 or 1799
And these dates were predicted before CTR was even born. I also remember attending a Corporate meeting
In Pittsburgh in 1968 and they played a movie of CTR
Pacing the stage giving one of his sermons on film of
Course and all praise was being given to him. Now, you
Don’t hear anything at all about him in those reverent terms. ????? Even though I was only about 15 at the
Time, I remember it like it was yesterday. Things really
Have changed drastically. So glad to be out.
Reply
Exhausted says:
September 11, 2015 at 10:52 am
Oh the frustration was in regards to 1914 of course.
Forgot to preface that.
Reply
rob says:
September 11, 2015 at 11:35 am
This religion has created such a conundrum of “new light” and rules and false prophecies. If asked, the average witness will never be able to explain the following:
Overlapping generations?
Who exactly is the King of the North?
What are blood fractions?
policy on child abuse?
Shunning?
Who’s on first?
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:09 pm
@Rob. GOOD POINTS!!
How about adding
1) Gog & Magog
2)F&D Slave
3)Sheep&Goats
4)Organ Transplants
5) Vaccinations
6)Superior Authorities
ANY MORE, ANYONE????
Reply
Reader says:
September 11, 2015 at 3:34 pm
Dear Rob;
“Who exactly is the King of the North?”
I think;
It is and has been Russia since 1453ce.
Many in the West think Rome fell or sort of fell apart 400-500ce and I did too, But the Roman Empire survived as ‘Byzantium’ untill 1453; Columbus had been born by then.
Warning thinking can lead to isolation.
Reply
Ted says:
September 11, 2015 at 12:10 pm
GB, Do the honourable thing and issue a full and unreserved
apology to all the people who have put their lives on hold.
People who have forgone marriage and the joy of children,
Those who have missed out on a good education and career.
Ones who have spent their lives working for you without
proper wages and are left with little support in old age.
And all because of a dogmatic adherence to a long ago failed
prediction based on the year 1914. A date that you insist was
given to you by God.
Spare us the usual rhetoric, that in their desire to see gods plan
fulfilled bros, have run ahead of the org, and raised false
expectations in their mind. You and you alone are the ones who
are responsible for these bogus assumptions. SHAME ON YOU.
Reply
ruthlee says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:32 pm
here here ted and so say all of us ruthlee
Reply
Cedar Sullivan says:
September 11, 2015 at 12:33 pm
When will Mr. Cedars grow up. Stick to your web donations. These guys keep winning. Come to Naija for more church business…
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 11, 2015 at 2:31 pm
@Cedar Sullivan . Sorry I am a bit slow. Are you insulting the CEDARS WEBSITE ‘ ???
& Excuse me as I have been a JW for 35 years so my brain is not used to thinking properly,but WHAT is NAIJA?? Is it some JAPANESE NINJA TURTLE Version of STEPHEN LETT???
Please forgive my IGNORANCE as I have been Brainwashed, sorry I meant spiritually Led by the F& D Slave???
Reply
Innocent Son says:
September 11, 2015 at 12:41 pm
I’ve a feeling that David Spline and the rest of the G B are going to have to keep explaining the Generation teaching more and more. You see it just doesn’t make sense, rather it causes more confusion! The sad part is I think the G B are so deluded they actually believe all this nonsense… These 7 clowns dressed in comic book suits are ‘ Barking Mad ‘ and DO NOT REPRESENT ANY GOD I KNOW…
Reply
ScotWm says:
September 12, 2015 at 10:08 am
RE: “These 7 clowns dressed in comic book suits are ‘ Barking Mad ‘ and DO NOT REPRESENT ANY GOD I KNOW…”
And here’s why:
“By his spirit, the holy spirit, Jehovah God guides or leads his people up to a certain point of time, and thus he did until the time when “the comforter” was taken away, which would necessarily occur when Jesus, the Head of his organization, came to the temple and gathered unto himself those whom he found faithful when he, as the great Judge, began his judgment, in 1918.” (Preservation, 1932, p.193-194)
So, according to Joseph Rutherford, holy spirit was taken away from Jesus’ followers in 1918. I have always wondered how a person can sin against the holy spirit and now I am beginning to understand:
“Truly I say to you that all things will be forgiven the sons of men, no matter what sins they commit and what blasphemies they speak. But whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit has no forgiveness forever but is guilty of everlasting sin.” (Mark 3:28. 29) (New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (2013 Revision)
Reply
Pete says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:08 pm
So the GB have rewritten the Bible to suit their Dogma and now they are trying desperately to re-write the English dictionary to suit their Dogma as well. These guy’s are just plain nuts! Who ties their shoelaces? With two thirds of JW kids quitting the cult as soon as they’re able, (because kids usually have good BS detectors) the arrival of the internet providing instant information sharing and giving cults no place to hide, the WT being caught with their pants down and totally shamed by the Aust. Royal Commission and sites like this, it’s only a matter of time before the house of cards comes tumbling down. Anybody who can’t now see it for what it is, is either totally blind or has a deep seated desire to be led and told what to do. I recently presented my JW mother with a logical question which she couldn’t answer so she rang my JW sister who in turn rang an elder. The cult have these people thinking and behaving like primary school children who can’t even think for themselves and go running to the headmaster for an answers.
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 11, 2015 at 7:11 pm
Well said, Pete. And your BS detector comment reminded me of my non-JW niece. Years ago, when she was a child, I would occasionally take her to meetings with me. Recently, I admitted to her that I no longer subscribe to the JW belief system (I think the technical term I used was “horse sh*t”). I apologized for having exposed her to it and she said, ‘It’s no big deal. I never believed any of it.” With that, I felt small and dumb, yet very proud of HER. For what it’s worth, you have my best wishes that your family members somehow experience an enlightenment before too long.
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 12, 2015 at 3:08 pm
Well said, Pete! And your comment about kids having good BS detectors reminded me of my non-JW niece. Years ago, when she was a child, I would occasionally take her to the meetings with me. Recently, I divulged to her that I no longer subscribe to JW doctrine (I think the term I used was actually “horse s#!*”). I apologized for having exposed her to it, but she said, “It’s not a big deal. I never believed any of it anyway.” With that, I felt small and stupid myself, but very proud of HER!
I wish for your family members the same enlightenment that so many are experiencing these days. The GB seems determined to keep making their hooey harder and harder to swallow.
Reply
1914 ha ha ha says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:32 pm
Give enough rope and they will hang themselves.Hence the money grabs etc, they know they are running out of time & members. I only hope im alive to see it!
Reply
1914 ha ha ha says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:56 pm
As the saying goes,”trick me once, shame on me! Trick me twice,shame on you” wbts are a bunch of (feel free to fill in the blanks):)
Reply
Awake! says:
September 11, 2015 at 5:04 pm
I can think of many, many terms I could use for the WTBTS, to ‘fill in your blanks’, however I fear my post would be deleted. Someone recently suggested that the 9/11 terrorists should have targeted the WT Headquarters rather than the WTC, because, in their words, “terrorists need to kill terrorists.” Their final word was “Sorry.” I replied, “Don’t be sorry”, and both those posts were deleted! I suppose making those kinds of comments is too politically incorrect and inflammatory, unlike molesting innocent children , brainwashing the masses, cutting people off from their families, ruining people’s lives with bald-faced lies and cynical manipulation techniques, and keeping millions captive in a ritualistic cult based on worshipping a mental idol (“Jehovah”). I suppose we wouldn’t want to ruffle anyone’s feathers, especially the “high and mighty” GB up there in their Ivory Tower. Maybe I’m just a bad person for agreeing with that (deleted) post.
By the way, your “handle” reminded me of something I was thinking of just today. The WTBTS has always made such a big deal about “nailing” 1914 as a pivotal year i.e. the outbreak of “World War I”. But WWI is only WWI because we call it that. It was really just another European war, fought, as usual, between the French, British, and Germans. The U.S. didn’t get involved until 1917. Was there fighting in North America? South America? Australia? Africa? India? Russia? China? Japan? Thailand??? So it really wasn’t a “world war”, was it? Yes, there were tremendous casualties, but only due to technology (the machine gun, artillery, air power), and the belligerents’ stubbornness in continuing to send more and more troops into the slaughter. And, of course, it was a war which involved primarily white Europeans and North Americans (“Westerners”), so naturally it was EVENTUALLY dubbed “WORLD War I” (originally the Great War). Doubt it would have been WWI if it occurred in Latin America or Australia or Africa! Russell and his cronies could have thrown out one of many other dates and still “nailed” a “major” war – how about the Boer War, Spanish Civil War, WWII, the Korean War,the French IndoChina War, the Vietnam War, any one of the countless Middle Eastern wars, Bosnia, Rwanda, even other earthshaking events like the stock market crash of 1929, Mount St. Helen’s, Chernobyl, 9/11, etc. Sh*t happens. All the time. Anyone can make predictions, and statistically speaking, be correct from time to time. Once again, WTBTS and the GB, proven to be a bunch of nothings and nobodies, with no mystical powers and no connection to any Divinity, “Jehovah” or not!!!
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 11, 2015 at 9:50 pm
@Awake . GREAT COMMENTS!! I am with you in MIND BODY & SOUL!!
SOUL … What a Lovely Word ! The Way the GB Define it is Enough to Confuse ALL US GOOD SOULS on this Website.
I Don’t Trust Any Interpretations by the GB Anymore !! I Research Everything I have been taught by Watchtower Manipulation!
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 11, 2015 at 9:56 pm
@Awake. EXCELLENT ANALYSIS!!
Reply
Ocma says:
September 11, 2015 at 7:44 pm
“If you don’t understand this, it is not due to any failure on your part. It is because it doesn’t make sense. ” – This gave me a good chuckle :)
It really doesn’t make any sense. I never understood the 607 explanation either ‘there’s no year 0 so minus one year and you get the answer’. Um, what?
They are crazy for spouting all this ‘new light’, as though it really is factual.
And, at the end of the day, no one is supposed to know when ‘God’ is coming, so why do they keep trying to pin point it??
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 11, 2015 at 10:01 pm
@Ocma . Exactly as Jesus said he didn’t KNOW the DAY or HOUR !!! Matthew 24v34-36 BUT SILLY ME David SPLANE Knows MORE Than JESUS!!
Reply
Ocma says:
September 13, 2015 at 5:46 pm
Ha! They just love to think they’re so clever, and they want everyone to know it, and gush over them. Nothing discreet about them. The GB is truly out of touch with reality.
Reply
Kat says:
September 11, 2015 at 8:34 pm
great post Ocma
Reply
minion says:
September 11, 2015 at 9:17 pm
I also ask the same question, why Chuckie T. Russell was omitted and forgotten, since he was the founder of the IBSA, allegedly known today as JWs.
Someone posted a link to IBSA, so I researched and found this, this is an excerpt and for informational purposes:
Brother Russell Founded the Bible Students, not Jehovah’s Witnesses
This early Bible Student history book is written by Bro. Ken Rawson, a Bible Student elder who knew more Bible Students from Pastor Russell’s and JF Rutherford’s time than any other Bible Student elder alive today.
After the death of Pastor Russell in 1916, the purpose of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society changed drastically. Joseph Rutherford, whom Pastor Russell had recently dismissed from his staff, seized legal control of the Watch Tower, dismissed the majority of the Board of Directors, and established dictatorial authority. The Watch Tower became the central head and authority over all congregations willing to yield their sovereignty. Basic doctrines of the “new society” seriously digressed from the teachings of Pastor Russell as the writings of Pastor Russell were discarded. The methods of conducting the evangelistic work were altered. The more sensational digressions, such as refusing blood transfusion and saluting the flag, caught the public’s eye. But many individuals and whole congregations refused to surrender their Christian liberty or accept the new teachings. As early as 1917, the exodus from the newly declared sovereign headquarters
began. By 1918 one-fourth of the Bible Students left Judge Rutherford and remained true to the teachings of the late Pastor Russell.
Info found under history link, at IBSA.
I did not know.
Peace out,
Reply
mcfan says:
September 11, 2015 at 9:31 pm
minion,
Exactly!
The truth is that JWs have only existed since 1931!
They only mention Russell in their history for HISTORICAL DEPTH! Imagine in 1961 going door to door trying explain to people that your religion has only existed for 30 years.
Reply
mcfan says:
September 11, 2015 at 9:35 pm
More people might want to check out the website of the International Bible Students Association and go to: Bible Students Are not Jehovah,s Witnesses.
VERY MUST SEE STUFF!
Reply
minion says:
September 12, 2015 at 8:52 pm
@ mcfan,
Consider this:
1). Chuckie T. Russell a Christian, not a JW.
2). Judge Rutherford once a Christian, now an apostate made his own religion known as JWs.(1931)
3). The man known as Jesus Christ was a Christian, not a JWs.
4). IBSA the true enchilada, founded by Chuckie T. Russell still exist.
5). Where do we go, someone asked? . . you decide.
Lloyd keep the ‘true New Light shine ever brighter’.
Peace out,
Reply
DJ says:
September 11, 2015 at 9:51 pm
Can someone explain Matthew 24:34 to me because what Mr. Splane says sounds utterly stupid but I just want a more elaborate answer. How could he think this scripture meant our generation?
Reply
Rose Graziano says:
September 12, 2015 at 4:47 am
To top it all off David Splane during his explanation of the Generations had the nerve to say “we are not saying this for sure but “Lets’s just assume for arguments sake”
Reply
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← Inducing phobias: How the Watchtower uses irrational fears to solidify membership
12 things we learned from Geoffrey Jackson’s testimony at the Royal Commission →
David Splane explains the overlapping generation teaching (without actually explaining it)
avatar
Posted on September 10, 2015
David Splane grapples with the "overlapping generation" teaching in a new video
David Splane grapples with the “overlapping generation” teaching in a new video
The September JW Broadcasting episode is now available on tv.jw.org, and for any avid follower of goings-on at Watchtower this month’s offering from the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ is a must-watch.
Governing Body member David Splane addresses his audience on one of the many subjects best swept under the rug by Watchtower – the incomprehensible “overlapping generation” teaching.
Simply put, this teaching (which first appeared in the April 15, 2010 Watchtower) is a hastily-contrived get-out-of-jail-free card for the failed 1914 “this generation” teaching.
For decades Watchtower publications insisted that Armageddon was imminent because, they argued, the generation of anointed Witnesses (who believed they were going to heaven) who witnessed and understood the events of 1914 would not die out before Armageddon arrived.
This claim was based on Matthew 24:34, where Jesus told his followers that the generation that witnessed various apocalyptic signs would not die out until all his words, including the “great tribulation” (the prelude to Armageddon), came true.
So certain was Watchtower of this claim that it even had it included in its masthead for the Awake! magazine…
awake-page-4-generation-masthead-oct-1995-tn
That is, until they quietly changed the masthead to read as follows…
awake-page-4-masthead-nov-1995-tn
Increasingly it became obvious that Watchtower’s self-imposed time limit on Armageddon had expired, because too much time had passed since 1914 for there to be any survivors among Jehovah’s Witnesses old enough to have memories of the outbreak of World War I. In fact, at the time of writing in September 2015, only 50 individuals older than 110 years old are known to still be alive.
“New light” was called for, and in 1995 and 2008 the organization made various stabs at squaring the circle. Paul Grundy has done a great job of documenting these fluctuating “understandings” on his JWfacts resource.
The most recent solution, as proposed by Watchtower in 2010 (and regurgitated by Splane in the above clip), is to essentially embellish Jesus’ words by suggesting that “this generation” doesn’t have to be just one generation, but can be two.
The first “group” of “this generation” would witness and understand the events of 1914, and the second group would be those who were born before the last individuals in the first group died (hence an “overlapping” generation).
If you don’t understand this, it is not due to any failure on your part. It is because it doesn’t make sense. The teaching rides roughshod over the English language, redefining what “generation” means, and relying on the audience to willfully bypass their logical thinking skills by asserting the incomprehensible as indisputable truth.
After all, if you can arbitrarily insist that a generation can be composed of two groups, why not have three, four, five – on into infinity? The word “generation” quickly loses all meaning.
The wisest course of action for Watchtower would have been to either distance itself from the “overlapping generation” teaching as a well-meaning slip-up (perhaps by arguing “this generation” was figurative rather than literal), or ignore the matter altogether.
Instead, the Governing Body apparently concluded that a 12-minute video presentation rehashing the teaching, complete with diagram and stick pointer, was just what the doctor ordered.
Their mistake is an inevitable byproduct of their delusion and bullish devotion to their own contrived dogma. It is, to my mind, further proof that the Governing Body are not cynical con-men but really do believe their own nonsense – and expect us to believe it too. Otherwise, they would have steered clear of the subject entirely, and spoken about something more compelling and universally appealing.
In addition to this obvious faux pas, I am also delighted at David Splane’s performance, which wreaked of cheesiness and insincerity…
As a side note – Splane is among three Governing Body members (together with Herd and Losch) who have apparently opted to deliver their JW Broadcasting episodes alongside “helpers” from the various Governing Body committees. The other Governing Body members (Lett, Morris, Sanderson and Jackson) tend to appear by themselves. I can’t help but question Splane’s decision to appear with a co-host, since he is in my view one of the more competent, persuasive speakers on the Governing Body. His uneasy interactions with his co-host only serve to undo the forcefulness of his individual presentation.
A costly mistake
When JW Broadcasting was first announced 11 months ago I said at the time it was great news. The worst thing the Governing Body could possibly do was reveal themselves to their doting followers. It is far easier to respect and admire your leaders when you can’t see or hear them. Having them thrusted at your TV screen or computer monitor in all their bumbling, arrogant, senile, jewelry-flashing glory changes the whole dynamic.
Yes, we have seen some extremely potent pieces of indoctrination designed to pull on the heart strings and appeal to people’s emotions. The standard episode will feature at least one visually appealing interview segment with powerful imagery and stirring music, in which a loyal Witness tears up as he or she relates how Jehovah’s hand has come to their rescue against all odds.
I will continue to do my best to expose these clearly coercive methods in my JW Broadcasting rebuttal videos. But I am growing increasingly confident that to any sincere, intellectually honest Witness capable of rudimentary reasoning skills, no rebuttals are needed. The delusion, absurdity and self-indulgence speaks for itself.
new-cedars-signature3
Further reading…
◾Friendly Atheist article
◾To see a list of video rebuttals to JW Broadcasting episodes, click here.
◾To read the JWfacts page on changes to the generation teaching, click here.
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358 Responses to David Splane explains the overlapping generation teaching (without actually explaining it)
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Freedom is good says:
September 12, 2015 at 6:53 am
I feel so good to realize how false this religion is.Just thinking of how to exit since i have family members in.
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Dblaron42 says:
September 12, 2015 at 9:38 pm
@Freedom
Leaving is pretty simple if you are a man… Just slowly stop attending the indoctrination sessions slowly.. And do not meet with the elders.. Your family (depending on how “devout” (really brainwashed)they are) can still associate with you without any consequences.
My third comment on this thread. The first two didn’t take… Let’s see if this one does…
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alain says:
September 12, 2015 at 7:38 am
Hi Lloyd!
Another good article. I’ve just seen D. Splane’s video on JW Broadcasting. It’s quite surprising to hear that all the actual GB members are contemporary of the first generation, included Mark SANDERSON. M. SANDERSON is 50 this year: he was born in 1965… Does that mean he was anointed in his early twenties? At least , before 1992?
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FadingFast says:
September 12, 2015 at 1:23 pm
I was thinking the same. I wonder if his life story is written down anywhere? I think he grew up in the San Diego area and served in Newfoundland, Canada before coming to Brooklyn. Not married as far as I can tell.
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1914 ha ha ha says:
September 12, 2015 at 8:54 am
Do not put your trust in the sons of men. Well theres no use even trying to use the bible to reason with most jws, deut 18 20 to 22 erm false prophets.Just watch there eyes glaze over.So sad.
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ScotWm says:
September 12, 2015 at 9:48 am
David Splane, his six Governing Body associates and other helpers have been feeding us some very complicated spiritual food lately. Honest hearted ones can appreciate what a loving provision we were given when David Splane provided us with a detailed explanation of the overlapping generations. This was indeed spiritual food delivered at the proper time.
I have always been curious as to how the spirit anointed Governing Body members receive the heavenly guidance they so lovingly share with us. I finally found the answer. This heavenly guidance is communicated directly to the anointed remnant through angels:
“These angels are invisible to human eyes and are there to carry out the orders of the Lord. No doubt they first hear the instruction which the Lord issues to his remnant and then these invisible messengers pass such instruction on to the remnant. The facts show that the angels of the Lord with him at his temple have been thus rendering sacred service unto the remnant since 1919.” (Vindication, 1932, vol.3, p.250)
“The remnant do not hear audible sounds, because such is not necessary. Jehovah has provided his own good way to convey thoughts to the minds of his anointed ones. To all on the outside of the organization of Jehovah his is a secret organization.” (Preparation, 1933, p.64)
So, there you go. We can rest assured that “the facts show” angelic direction is the source of all Watchtower prophesies and doctrine. The first spirit anointed generation would recognize Christ’s invisible presence in 1914 and this first generation would be followed by another spirit anointed generation which would overlap the first generation.
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anonymous says:
September 12, 2015 at 5:43 pm
@ScotWm, according to the Revelation It’s Grand Climax At Hand! on page 125, the Watchtower doesn’t really know for sure where they get their “spiritual” guidance from. This is the way it read, starting on page 124 under the Subheading “The Great Crowd Makes It’s Appearance”:
“From the time of the apostle John and on into the Lord’s day, anointed Christians were puzzled as to the identity of the great crowd. It is fitting, then, that one of the 24 elders, representing anointed ones already in heaven, should stir John’s thinking by raising a pertinent question. “And in response one of the elders said to me: ‘These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?’ So right away I said to him: ‘My lord, you are the one that knows.'” (Revelation 7:13,14a) Yes, the elder could locate the answer and give it to John. This suggests that resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today.”
If you pay attention to that paragraph, it is saying that there were already anointed ones in heaven and they “might” have stirred John’s thinking when he wrote what he did at that scripture at Revelation and that when the anointed today are resurrected to heaven, that they “may” be involved in the communicating of divine truths today.
So, who knows where those “stirrings of divine truth” are coming from since the Society says “may” be involved. They don’t say it’s coming from angels in that paragraph.
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ScotWm says:
September 12, 2015 at 8:17 pm
RE: “@ScotWm, according to the Revelation It’s Grand Climax At Hand! on page 125, the Watchtower doesn’t really know for sure where they get their “spiritual” guidance from.”
It is interesting that Watchtower leaders would admit that they don’t know the source of their spiritually-channeled false prophesies. It must be a real challenge to determine where the divinely-inspired guidance ends and the hallucinations begin.
Joseph Rutherford claimed that once the Lord arrived at his temple in 1918 and gathered together unto himself the chosen ones, guidance from the holy spirit would no longer be necessary because Christ would be present among his chosen ones. Rutherford then claimed that communication with Jesus was relayed to him and his anointed brethren by angels or ministering spirits. After Rutherford’s death, Watchtower leaders once again claimed that they are guided by the holy spirit.
Rather than elaborate on the pathetic ramblings of a totally-discredited former Watchtower leader, the website below has a very good analysis of the active force that has been guiding the Watchtower:
http://freeminds.org/psych/activfor.htm
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ScotWm says:
September 12, 2015 at 9:59 pm
RE: “@ScotWm, according to the Revelation It’s Grand Climax At Hand! on page 125, the Watchtower doesn’t really know for sure where they get their “spiritual” guidance from.”
It is interesting that Watchtower leaders would admit that they don’t know the source of their spiritually-inspired false prophesies. It must be a real challenge to determine where the divine guidance ends and the hallucinations begin.
Joseph Rutherford claimed that once the Lord arrived at his temple in 1918 and gathered together unto himself the chosen ones, guidance from the holy spirit would no longer be necessary because Christ would be present among his chosen ones. Rutherford then claimed that communication with Jesus was relayed to him and his anointed brethren by angels or ministering spirits. After Rutherford’s death, Watchtower leaders once again claimed that they are guided by the holy spirit.
Rather than elaborate on the pathetic ramblings of a totally-discredited former Watchtower leader, the website below has a very good analysis of the active force that has been guiding the Watchtower:
http://freeminds.org/psych/activfor.htm
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anonymous says:
September 13, 2015 at 3:10 am
“The remnant do not hear audible sounds, because such is not necessary. Jehovah has provided his own good way to convey thought to the minds of his anointed ones. To all on the outside of the organization of Jehovah his is a secret organization. ibid., p. 64”
ScotWm, I cut and pasted that quote from the article you posted and find it quite telling.
From what I gather from that quote is the they don’t need to hear voices but whatever comes to their mind is coming from God??? That seems really convenient. It sounds an awful lot like how Joseph Smith got his information from Jesus. Nobody was a witness to the event and he lost his evidence but as long as he said it happened, that is good enough for eighteen million Mormons. The story is so implausible that there’s a popular play about it here in the U.S. called the “Book of Mormon” and it’s quite funny from what I have heard about it.
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Kevin says:
September 12, 2015 at 11:21 am
The one thing that bugs me about 1914 was IIRC it was predicted before then that Jesus would kick out Satan and begin his rule. World War I started presumably because Satan was pissed and “closer” to the earth. Coincidence?
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Excelsior! says:
September 13, 2015 at 4:48 am
Kevin,
The WTBTS used to state that Satan and his buddies were cast out in October. WW1 started in August.
WW1 could have started the year before, but a compromise that satisfied no one was reached.
No one has definitive proof that any of these “spirit creatures” exist.
So, yes, it is a coincidence.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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Ted says:
September 12, 2015 at 11:47 am
JWs were an apostate schism from the Bible Students, or
Russellites. Enforced by the bully boy tactics of the big judge.
( That’s Rutherford, not the other big judge )
But one thing common to both groups was the fixation on the
year 1914, which resulted in embarrassment for each of them.
Ray Franz stated, “For 30 years they were looking forward to
1914, and now for 80 years they have been looking back at it.
( add 21 years since Ray’s statement.)
The looking forward was to the “End” of all trouble in that year
not the “Beginning”, ( Zion’s WT July 15, 1894 p226 ),
History proves that was a complete failure, despite claiming
“These are God’s dates not ours”.
The looking back to 1914 has been a reversal of Russell’s
teaching. Now 1914 is claimed to be the “Beginning” of
of trouble, ( Not the end of it as predicted by Russell ). The
trouble is foretold to end within the generation of people
alive in that key year.
That generation has long gone, even many of the following
generation ( To which I belong,) have already handed their
chips in. I’m still hanging on at 84.
You can look at that date, forwards or backwards. or from
any angle you like. It has no meaning or relevance to Bible
prophecy. I’m really sorry if you’ve invested a great deal in
It, You’ve lost your stake, the horse was a nag.
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ruthlee says:
September 13, 2015 at 12:16 pm
bless you Ted 84 and still fighting fit good on you bro gives us all hope love and peace ruthlee
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FadingFast says:
September 12, 2015 at 1:15 pm
Strange how an organization can spend decades condemning “Christendom” for “incomprehensible” and confusing doctrines such as the Trinity, and not see the irony of teaching their own convoluted dogma.
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Garrett says:
September 12, 2015 at 1:39 pm
Lloyd/ Cedars
I would love to see you do another type of survey.
Namely, what do you think will be the future of the WT.
Crumble? In how many years? Limp on? For how many years? Etc. in other words, what do we all predict will be her fate/ future?
It would be fun.
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Innocent Son says:
September 12, 2015 at 1:50 pm
It’s about time the 7 men in charge of the Borg came clean and admitted they got key teachings wrong! However I won’t be holding my breath as that would make them fallible and PROVE THEY DON’T HAVE HOLY SPIRIT!
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Ted says:
September 12, 2015 at 4:04 pm
Garrett, In anticipation of any possible survey, here’s
one or two off the cuff thoughts. How about the org
fragmenting into several schisms.
Different countries rejecting central control, because of the
Bizarre and embarrassing stuff that’s coming from there.
Look at the recent humiliation heaped upon the Australian
Branch, their policies were indefensible and the elders
made to look like bumbling fools. How much of that will
will people stand for.
I see the org, ditching date fixing and pushing, wars and
rumours of wars, earthquakes , critical times etc, of which
there’s a constant supply of material to draw on.
And as Robert Perez suggested, the mantra will then be.
Preach and wait on JHVH.
The bottom has fallen out of the literature business hence
the squeeze on the bros, to empty their bank accounts and
hand the cash over to them, even the appeal for the kids
ice cream money. The internet is killing recruitment so
revenue will be greatly reduced, leading to a downward
spiral,
They could continue for years but but not on the present
international scale. A realistic option is bankruptcy, from
which the top brass could still come away well heeled.
I’ll pipe down now. I’ve probably broken posting requirements.
So I extend my apologies to Cedars, and every one else.
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Michele says:
September 12, 2015 at 4:12 pm
Speaking of the “Faithful and DECEITFUL slave”…I just read this and found it very interesting. Is it a way to send this to every Jehovah’s Witness?
http://avoidjw.org/2014/12/legally-establishing-watchtower-assets/
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Jake says:
September 13, 2015 at 1:39 pm
Michele, Hi, very interesting article you’ve posted there. Maybe the dropping of the loan repayments to the Society has to do with the legal rights of the borrower i.e. the publishers have a legal stake. Can anyone clarify? Cheers and thanks for the link, very useful.
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Michele says:
September 23, 2015 at 8:47 pm
This article blew me away. It just truly closed the deal for me forever with them. Actually the Pedophile cases woke me all the way up, but to know that they confess to being set up just like the Catholics! Wow!
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Meredith J says:
September 13, 2015 at 5:20 pm
We once gave a large sum of money which was all the money we had when we were very poor for the building of our kingdom hall. We were very new and thought it was the right thing to do at the time. Many of our congregation also gave so much time and money towards this project. I thought it was really strange that we had a special event to dedicate OUR hall to Jehovah or in other words the Watchtower Society.
We had organised a loan from them and we went through great pains to pay it off. Finally, an old brother decided to pay the loan out. Makes you wonder where they got the money from in the first place to loan it to us. Probably from all the donations which were being amassed annually which were to further the kingdom work. Like this wasn’t furthering the kingdom work? Then why didn’t they just give us the money? If they had it to loan to us then why didn’t they just give it to us instead and save us all the trouble. After all, the Catholic Church pays for churches. The local people don’t. It was just another scam.
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Faded says:
September 13, 2015 at 6:42 pm
Yikes! Such a confusing talk. And this Menlo Park Congregation thing that I read in a link speaking of the hierarchy. It’s so crazy!
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Jake says:
September 14, 2015 at 12:23 am
Yikes, so after putting poor people into debt they then make it a donation to the society. That’s like rent an apartment, rebuilding and refurbishing it, paying all the bills and then getting kicked out!, shameful.
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Gameisover says:
September 14, 2015 at 6:49 am
E
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Bad Penny says:
September 12, 2015 at 4:47 pm
This David Splane talk was another example of the totally ridiculous and confusing explanations of scripture that the G.B. keep splurting out to their indoctrinated masses.
The words of the wise man at Proverbs 15:16 seem appropriate, ‘Better is a little in the fear of the Lord than an abundant supply and confusion along with it.’
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1914 ha ha ha says:
September 12, 2015 at 5:13 pm
Michele, just read what you posted, wow!, but even when i showed the old man the proof about the UN membership, all i got back was ”where else would i go”. koolaid anyone.
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Garrett says:
September 12, 2015 at 5:48 pm
1914 ha ha ha,
When people ask “where would I go? ”
I respond “back to bed, it’s wonderful!”
I can’t tell you how much I enjoy sleeping in on the weekends now.
Additionally I use the illustration when people don’t know where to go is to ask- “if you found out you were drinking poison would you keep drinking from it just because you don’t know what else to drink?
Step one: stop drinking. Step 2 look for a clean water source. These days I choose to drink from Logic, Love and Free Will. I follow principles and facts, not men.
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Pickled brain says:
September 12, 2015 at 11:04 pm
@Garrett . GOOD ANSWER! Stop drinking the Poison !! I LIKE the ILLUSTRATION!! I shall give you GOOD on your theocratic Slip!! No need to give you ‘W’ or ‘I’ . You are Qualified to go on to your next point to work on !!!
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Markw1509 says:
September 13, 2015 at 4:49 am
@Garrett. Excellent response, and it shows how brainwashed they are. They are saying “I can’t think for myself, so I will stay with what I’ve got”. Ludicrous!
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anonymous says:
September 13, 2015 at 5:22 am
@Garret, I love your illustration and I will remember that the next time anybody tries to tell me that again.
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Scrubmaster says:
September 13, 2015 at 8:43 am
Garrett – great point. I know it is a point used in one of the public talks. Nice way to turn it around.
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Excelsior! says:
September 13, 2015 at 5:15 am
1914 ha ha ha,
This is a classic WTBTS misquote! The WTBTS paraphrase John 6:67,68 and replace Jesus with “Jehovah God’s spirit directed Organisation”.
A textbook example of cult manipulation!
The context of this verse shows that Jesus was pretty poor at explaining things to his early disciples, using a poor illustration that deeply offended and shocked many of his erstwhile followers. Many decided to leave at this point.
Jesus asks the 12 if they will leave him too. Peter answers by asking Jesus a question WHOM shall we go away to, Lord? YOU have sayings of everlasting life,”
The WTBTS have been able to substitute themselves with Jesus himself.
If any of you are still Christian, then leaving the WTBTS is NOT leaving Jesus Christ. Not by any means.
There are many examples of the WTBTS butchering the bible in this manner.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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Meredith J says:
September 15, 2015 at 10:58 pm
Excelsior, hear hear, you are absolutely right.
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JB Reezner says:
September 12, 2015 at 6:00 pm
Stepping back from the tunnel vision I have on the Org from my own long, embarrassing history of total acceptance of its preposterous belief system, I look out at nearly an entire world of people who are also guilty of their own disconnects from reality in one way or the other. Clearly, the reality we choose (or that is chosen for us) usually has more to do with things like our upbringing, mental state, gullibility, and education level than it does a hard look at facts and a determination to find proper evidence for what we are to believe. With that being the case, I suspect that the Org will continue to survive for a very long time. What I now happily believe is a realistic hope, though, is that it will continue to decrease in growth and will eventually begin to shrink in size. As WE know, the internet will NOT be the a BOON to the Org. It will be the bane of its existense. But, as long as there are a few people in the Org still willing to shovel out clumps of the usual crap, there will be a few people out there willing to let it stick when they’re hit with it.
A dear JW friend of mine who has no idea that I have been in total disagreement with him for the last several years recently told me about the convention he just attended. He said there were “OVER SIX THOUSAND” in attendance. And there were “TWENTY SIX BAPTIZED!”. He was genuinely trying to encourage me. He has no idea how encouraging those numbers truly were to me.
Of course, this comment is in reply to Garrett’s excellent suggestion of a survey regarding the fate of the Org. Let me also add the same apologies found at the end of Ted’s comment, along with all of the plagues of Revelation if my comment was too far off the beaten path or inappropriate in any way. I’m NEW here! (I’m gonna ride that excuse for as long as possible, lol…)
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Pickled brain says:
September 12, 2015 at 10:59 pm
@JB Reezner . You may be new here.BUT you show GREAT INSIGHT in your comments & much WISDOM as to why normally intelligent people fall for the GB Rubbish… EMOTIONALLY VULNERABLE is usually one of the main reasons.
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JB Reezner says:
September 13, 2015 at 8:38 am
Thank you very much for your kind words, Pickled brain! And I can certainly attest to emotional vulnerability frequently being a major factor in falling for hooey. My dear departed mother accepted the JW message as a teenager during a time of great vulnerability. She later passed it on to me. I don’t blame her at all. I understand. It’s just a very sad situation. As we all know, it’s very difficult for a child to know something is untrue when a parent (or parents) is saying it’s true.
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Pickled brain says:
September 13, 2015 at 9:33 am
@JB Reezner. You are a KIND & EMPATHETIC person UNLIKE the 7 CHARLATANS in BROOKLYN who SEPARATE JWs from their families if they DARE to DISAGREE with ANY DOCTRINE which A CHILD Might have Got BAPTISED at 11,12,14 etc. who didn’t fully comprehend the consequences!!
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Kaput says:
September 13, 2015 at 2:16 am
Excellent comments JB – I am a realist as well – this corporation will still be around in future – just less members who can remember the history and more faders and judicial commitee victims who suffer the lack of love and mind control.
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JB Reezner says:
September 13, 2015 at 10:35 am
Thank you, Kaput. Yes, sad but true.
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1914 ha ha ha says:
September 12, 2015 at 6:10 pm
Bro franz wil be shown on the graph as fwf, what it should be is wtf.Sorry couldnt let that one slip past.lol:)
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Nichlaus Kopernivus says:
September 13, 2015 at 3:09 am
How true when you said…”The worst thing the Governing Body could possibly do was reveal themselves to their doting followers. It is far easier to respect and admire your leaders when you can’t see or hear them.”
As Mark Twain shrewdly observed too …. “It’s better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt.”
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enuffsenuff says:
September 13, 2015 at 4:55 am
The Menlo Park case revisted. The WT has developed religious “new light” dogma to deal with a legal problem created by the Menlo Park case. The dogma has nothing to do with what Jesus described in Math 24 regarding the FDS. This is the first article that I have seen, that actually deals with a cynical and dishonest manipulation of scripture. The blatant concern for WT wealth and assets is stunning. The fact that they use scripture to connive a result is shocking. If they wanted to get control of assets at least do it in the sphere where it belongs- business and pay the tax.
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enuffsenuff says:
September 13, 2015 at 5:02 am
This piece is taken from The Menlo Park case;
And I say “organization.” I am general counsel for the National Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses out of Brooklyn, New York. Ordinarily, I wouldn’t be here, but this is one of our 13,000 congregations in the United States. We are a hierarchal religion structured just like the Catholic Church. And when the order from the Pope comes down in the church defrocking a priest and kicking him out, he no longer has any say in any matter in the local parish priest — in the parish.
Sorry about doing this in bits but I was blocked by a program on the watch for spxxmmers. So I am being careful not to upset the silly thing.
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enuffsenuff says:
September 13, 2015 at 5:14 am
Still on Menlo Park Case, What this part explains is why the GB equals the FDS in a legal manoeuvre to keep assets in its hands and away from the ones that paid for their own KHalls This “composite slave” is a made up term created simply for legal reasons. Redefining the “Faithful & Discreet Slave” as solely the Governing Body and not all Anointed individuals closes a legal loophole that was noticed as part of the court cases with the 3 former elders from the Menlo Park Congregation in California.
Previously, all who saw themselves as “Anointed” had a share in the Watchtower’s Assets as they were legal representatives of “God’s Kingdom on Earth”. But changing the definition of the Faithful & Discreet Slave to just the Governing Body means that all Watchtower’s Assets are now safely in the hands of the small number of individuals who rule the organization from the top down, in a hierarchical fashion, “just like the Catholic Church”.
So, what they have done is explained a legal loophole in religious doctrine terms in the form of “new light” to stop the R and F from complaining. This is a dishonest manipulation of scripture, but it finally puts flesh on the bones of why the GB and the FDS are now one and the same.
All of this from the link http://avoidjw.org/2014/12/legally-establishing-watchtower-assets/2/
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Bad Penny says:
September 13, 2015 at 5:26 am
JB Reezner –
Love your comments.
We all stayed with the org because we thought it was the ‘truth’.
Thankfully, through the information highway, we can now find out real truth based on facts and hard evidence, not on Watchtower make believe!
Good to have you with us!
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JB Reezner says:
September 13, 2015 at 8:43 am
Thank you, Bad Penny! Very good to be here!
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Alex says:
September 13, 2015 at 6:17 am
It gets worse. There is no logic to this teaching and how anyone can be taken in by this explanation goes beyond me. Its all theory and wishful thinking to prop up the failing 1914 teaching. By the way the governing body will only love you if you obey and believe every word they say and empty yourself of intellect and emotion. Also they like to receive your money to live in luxury at their new Warwick HQ.
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Pickled brain says:
September 13, 2015 at 3:18 pm
@Alex . You have SUMMED UP THIS UTTER LUNATIC REASONING of the GB Perfectly!!!
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Ted says:
September 13, 2015 at 9:04 am
Hi Garrett, Those weekend sleep in’s. Sheer heavenly bliss !
nirvana ! No longer having to go out Sunday morning disturbing
everyone else’s well earned rest. Oh the abuse I’ve had from
people, rushing downstairs thinking it was something urgent.
Even on the 25th of Dec, One guy said to me, “Can’t you even
leave us alone today, ( He didn’t swear though, not on Christmas
day. )
The demands made on JWs are unreasonable. Can you vac,
pioneer during the one holiday of the year you get from work,
and guilted into doing so with such comments as, “Time is so
short, any available time not spent preaching, is time stolen from
JHVH”. And all for what’s proved to be a Mirage, a fantasy.
Great comments Garrett, and everyone,
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 13, 2015 at 10:16 am
Here’s a little ditty for you guys. I’ll dedicate it to Pickled brain. Your hilarious comment earlier in this thread about tying The Who’s song My Generation in with all of the GB’s generation nonsense inspired me! This has probably already been done before, but, what the heck… Sung to the tune of the GREAT Who song, “Baba O’Riley” (Much better if you listen to the actual song as you read it! https://youtu.be/gY5rztWa1TM)…
Blah Blah Un’Likely (Witness Wasteland)
Out here in the field
I preach, full of zeal
And with my “facts”, no proof is given
I know that “new light”
Ain’t always right
But I’m undaunted, when it isn’t
Don’t cry, the end is nigh
For all the Witness wasteland
Raymond* take my hand
And help me understand
Expose the liars who filled this bag on my shoulder
The exodus is here!
The web has made it clear!
Let’s get to leavin’, before we get much older
Witness wasteland
It’s such a Witness wasteland
Witness wasteland, oh yeah
Witness wasteland
My time was WASTED!
*Alternatively, “Cedars”, “Grundy”, etc. :)
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 13, 2015 at 10:43 am
Here’s a little ditty for you guys. I’ll dedicate it to Pickled brain. Your hilarious comment earlier in this thread about tying The Who’s song My Generation in with all of the GB’s generation nonsense inspired me! This has probably already been done before, but, what the heck… Sung to the tune of the GREAT Who song, “Baba O’Riley” (Much better if you listen to the actual song as you read it! youtu.be/gY5rztWa1TM)…
Blah Blah Un’Likely (Witness Wasteland)
Out here in the field
I preach, full of zeal
And with my “facts”, no proof is given
I know that “new light”
Ain’t always right
But I’m undaunted, when it isn’t
Don’t cry, the end is nigh
For all the Witness wasteland
Raymond* take my hand
And help me understand
Expose the liars who filled this bag on my shoulder
The exodus is here!
The web has made it clear!
Let’s get to leavin’, before we get much older
Witness wasteland
It’s such a Witness wasteland
Witness wasteland, oh yeah
Witness wasteland
My time was WASTED!
*Alternatively, “Cedars”, “Grundy”, etc. :)
Reply
Garrett says:
September 13, 2015 at 11:11 am
Excellent Reez!
I sung it in my head to your words.
My favorite bands are Zeppelin and Sabbath.
I’ll eagerly wait for your next musical release based on those bands.
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 13, 2015 at 12:58 pm
Thanks Garrett, and challenge accepted! Zep happens to be my favorite band too.
Ramble On (youtu.be/uF_XI5pCxlo)
Be-leeefs are fallin’, all around
It’s time I was on my way
Thanks to you, my stunted mind
Is dizzy every day
But now it’s time for me to go
The internet lights my way
So take this guilt and pain, ‘n your millennial reign,
And shove it up your “A”!
Because I’ve grown so tired
But I know I’ve got one thing I got to do…
Ramble on!
Your full of crap, and it’s a trap
I stayed too long!
All around the world, your phony pearls
Have been a plague!
I’m finally brave enough to say
I’ll ramble on!
Could it be? I’m finally free!
Got no more time for spreadin’ “truth”
My time turned-in is all gone
And though I rang those bells a thousand times
Now, I’M the not-at-home
Ramble on!
Now’s the time, the time is now
I stayed too long!
I really cried -Hell, I nearly DIED
I can’t stay!
There ain’t no way skinny pants are (that) gay
I gotta ramble on!
This Witness thing ain’t what it seems
I ain’t tellin’ no more lies
Mine’s a tale that must be told
My FREEDOM I hold dear
How years ago, in days of old
When MAGIC filled the air
T’was in the early days of mankind,
…ehh, I better leave it there…
No skinny jeans wearers were harmed in the making of this song.
Reply
Garrett says:
September 13, 2015 at 9:48 pm
Brilliant! You have a gift.
Why don’t you put those to the original songs and do a You Tube video and further the cause?!
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 13, 2015 at 10:07 pm
Thanks! I’ve noodled around on the guitar and keyboard for many years, but as for my singing, let’s not talk about it… But if anybody working for the ex-JW cause ever does want to use or improve upon anything I do here, they certainly have my blessing.
Tara says:
September 15, 2015 at 6:51 am
Perhaps the obvious choice for the next one would be ‘My Generation’.
I am a Deep Purple, Zepplin, Cream, fan. Brothers would ‘Rush’ around to see me if they found me watching ‘The Wall – Floyd’. Oh and I like Maiden too which has never gone down well. Maybe it was Bruce in his tight pants….
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 17, 2015 at 5:26 pm
Absolutely, Tara! Pickled brain’s suggestion about My Generation is what got all of my nonsense started.
Nice taste in music. I lean less toward Purple and Maiden, but definitely all others mentioned are favorites of mine. Add to those Journey, Van Halen, Yes, Doors, Stones, Beatles, Wings, The BeeGees, okay, I’ve admitted too much…
Pickled brain says:
September 13, 2015 at 3:13 pm
@JB Reezner. YOU DEFINITELY HAVE STYLE!!
Before I came into the ‘TRUTH????’ At 23 my Favourite Band was The Who & can anyone out there believe this BUT I THREW ALL MY… WORLDLY….???? RECORDS Away when the Advice from The Most Holy ??was ‘If Jesus was in the room, Would you play & Listen to those Records!! As ROGER DALTREY Sang as the Lead Singer my Favourite Song …. ‘WON’T GET FOOLED AGAIN ‘!!!!! Absolutely Brilliant Song! I think Every Ex-JW should play it to themselves!!!
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 13, 2015 at 3:40 pm
TRAGIC!! But I can relate. I made similar sacrifices. Zeppelin, Van Halen, Prince (yes, PRINCE), ended up being silenced for many years in my life. But they’ve all come back with a VENGEANCE!
Won’t Get Fooled Again crossed my mind before I made my little ditty. But, as you suggest, the words are already PERFECT and very relevant to ex-JW’s! One of the greatest songs EVER, as many Who songs are.
Reply
Dblaron42 says:
September 13, 2015 at 9:40 pm
I too enjoy listening to the heavier side of music (always have really, but was just guilted by the ex wife to only play it while I was alone) I will never forget the horrified texts that I got for playing Lamb of God on the stereo.. Put a lid on it lady!
Reply
Meredith J says:
September 15, 2015 at 11:12 pm
Me too. And you would never believe what I had. Besides Led Zepellin, the Doors, the Stones, the Beatles, I had the Woodstock Triple album. My husband was really furious. It was mine but boy did I regret it. It’s probably worth quite a lot of money now. And also ‘Who’s Next?’ went out the door to the tip too. What a waste?
Reply
Meredith J says:
September 15, 2015 at 11:09 pm
“We’re all wasted!” I was only listening to that album yesterday. JB Reezner, you must be the same vintage as me possibly. I just sang it in my head to Baba O’Reilly and laughed. That is very clever and who would have ever thought of pinning that song to the feelings felt when you abandon the Truth? Welcome.
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 17, 2015 at 5:40 pm
Thanks, Meredith J. I enjoyed working that up. And my heart goes out to you for the loss of some great albums. Get on eBay and get ’em back! The 3 LP Woodstock set is not as expensive there as you might think. :)
Reply
Markw1509 says:
September 13, 2015 at 11:45 am
Let’s just assume that they are right about the overlapping generation. (Can’t believe I just wrote that, but bear with me!).
We are supposed to believe that Jesus said ‘this generation won’t pass away’ but that he meant this could be around 130 years or more. Why would Jesus say keep on the watch if it really wasn’t that urgent? Why give a warning at all if the time period was going to be that long? In the literal fulfilment, the gap was 37 years. How could the secondary fulfilment be 3 to 4 times as long? Why the urgency, if that’s how Jesus really meant it?
Sorry, GB, I simply can’t see the second fulfilment panning out like that. Maybe any JWs visiting this site can ex-splane.
Reply
Robertperez67 says:
September 13, 2015 at 1:52 pm
Very active JW here, and nope there is no justification for this circle jerk. At today’s meeting the Watchtower actually went on and on about the curses that await today’s false prophets that live at the expense of the suckers that believed in them. I just stared the conductor in the eye with the biggest grin constantly nodding my head. It took everything I had to keep from exploding in laughter. And the comments, oh the simple, simple comments of every simpleton in the room trying to outdo each other in “their” enlightenment, having understood this new light. The article repeated over and over ” although we aren’t positive” and any number of attendees would shoot their hands up to say “yes, yes I see it now and it was right there all along.” These people are hopelessly brainwashed, the broadcast says one thing and the magazine says another and no one catches on. This particular article just casually changed the meaning of a bunch of JW doctrine and everyone is so used to the wheel of fortune prophecies in JW literature that no one bats an eye, they are trully numb to the greater meaning of all this.
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 13, 2015 at 3:27 pm
@Robertperez67. I was sitting in the Watchtower Study today THINKING the SAME THING AS YOU !! HOW IN THE HELL CAN HUMAN BEINGS BE SO GULLIBLE??? How can anyone FALL FOR THIS EVER CHANGING NEW LIGHT AGAIN!!!!!
I also have a silly Grin on my face thinking how many in this room are thinking the same as me??
Reply
ruthlee says:
September 14, 2015 at 12:59 am
hi rob perez me too at the tower yesterday paragraph 4 mentioned the 10 horn giving support to the united nations i HAD to comment that WE should never in no way ever give or be known for giving our support to the united nations there was a silence in the kh it resonated with a few and afterward a bro came up to me and thumbs up we are not daft just biding time ruthlee
Reply
anonymous says:
September 14, 2015 at 3:06 am
I am looking at yesterday’s Watchtower “Your Deliverance is Getting Near” and paragraph 10 tells about Gog of Magog from Ezek. 38:10-12 and says Gog of Magog is a coalition of nations and how they are “eager to attack Jehovah’s anointed ones as well as their associates” but if you read what the Watchtower quotes from Ezekiel, it does describe the Watchtower corporation when it says of Gog of Magog “It will be to take much spoil and plunder, to attack the devastated places that are now inhabited and a people regathered from the nations, who ARE ACCUMULATING WEALTH AND PROPERTY, THOSE LIVING IN THE CENTER OF THE EARTH.”
I don’t think ordinary Witnesses are the ones accumulating wealth and property but those who it seems to describe to me is the Watchtower Corporation, not the rank and file.
Also paragraph 16 also talks about Gog of Magog but it just says Gog (the Bible says Gog of Magog though) and they again reference Ezekiel but the Watchtower in that paragraph says “shortly before the remaining ones of the 144,000 are taken to heaven, Gog will attack God’s people.”
What the Watchtower didn’t do was to take the reader to Revelation chapter 20:8 where the Bible actually tells about when Gog of Magog will attack God’s people and that is because verse 7 says it’s as soon as the thousand years have ended.
Leaving out Revelation chapter 20:8 was on purpose and that was so that people wouldn’t look it up and see that it is not “shortly before the remaining ones of the 144,000 are taken to heaven” but it’s after the thousand years had ended.
That was deceitful and telling. It tells me that the Society are all really stupid or evil.
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 14, 2015 at 2:57 pm
@Anonymous. JUST PLAIN EVIL!! Let’s be Generous & Call a Spade a Spade… You are Right about Gog & Rev.20 v8
Tara says:
September 15, 2015 at 6:45 am
I had a ‘headache’ and left after the talk.
Reply
Catalina says:
September 13, 2015 at 1:59 pm
Today I went to the Sunday morning meeting to make my sister happy. The watchtower study was from the July 15, 2015 magazine. Inside the magazine under – Life Story, Remembering My First Love Has Helped Me to Endure, As told by Anthony Morris he said he served in the Vietnam war and some men he knew were killed and he said Jehovah will bring those young men back to life and they will have a chance to learn the truth about him. Has Jw teaching changed while I was out 21 years ? Does anyone know ? My sister said she is confused. I thought worldly people will be destroyed. Is there a change in their teaching ?
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 13, 2015 at 2:48 pm
The belief is still that the vast majority of non-Witnesses will have their guts stomped out, tomorrow, during Armageddon. As for people who have died, the belief is that the vast majority of them will be resurrected due to being ‘acquitted from their sin’ (because they died) -Rom 6:7. After the resurrection, THEY get a do-over. But the poor non-JW men, women, children, little Baptist grandmas and peace-loving Buddhists alive when Armageddon comes are simply out of luck. Bird food.
Reply
pearlsB4swine says:
September 13, 2015 at 3:37 pm
Frustratingly, I have never come across a single JW in my area willing or able to talk about the whole generation thingy. Just an innocent question like “how would you explain the overlapping generation if asked?” makes them visibly uncomfortable and they change the subject. And why wouldn’t it, it’s total bollocks and they know it.
Why would Jesus deliver a message/prophecy so cryptic, so convoluted and ridiculous when the eternal life of the hearer depends upon their understanding and acceptance of it?
Give it up WT, admit it already, the “generation” teaching is dead in the water.
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 13, 2015 at 8:43 pm
You’re logic is rock solid, pearlsB4swine. I wish that was enough. When I asked a friend who is an active Witness that very question about what he says to people regarding the overlapping generation teaching, he said ‘Nooo no no, I don’t go near that thing.’ He understands how convoluted it is, and sometimes we have what I think are productive discussions. But sadly, he then goes to a meeting at the Hall and his brain completely RESETS back into harmony with the Org’s indoctrination. I’ve seen it happen several times now. When you’re finally on the outside looking back in at that phenomenon, it is truly a bizarre thing. Incredibly disturbing and sad.
Reply
Ted says:
September 13, 2015 at 3:51 pm
Catalina, I don’t think there’s been a change as to who gets
resurrections and who doesn’t. They’ve always claimed
that only “Dead” worldly people will be made alive, sometime
after Armageddon. But it’s the “Live” worldly ones who will
be snuffed when the fireworks start.
On that basis, if you’re in any doubt as to which category
you’re in, Getting knocked down by a bus is your best
option. It’s so reassuring when there’s someone who can
tell you exactly what God is thinking. Makes life much
simpler,– I think !
Reply
pearlsB4swine says:
September 13, 2015 at 4:06 pm
Frustratingly, I have never come across a single JW in my area willing or able to talk about the whole generation thingy. Just an innocent question like “how would you explain the overlapping generation if asked?” makes them visibly uncomfortable and they change the subject. And why wouldn’t it, it makes no sense and they know it.
Why would Jesus deliver a message/prophecy so cryptic, so convoluted and ridiculous when the eternal life of the hearer depends upon their understanding and acceptance of it?
Give it up WT, admit it already, the “generation” teaching is dead in the water.
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 13, 2015 at 4:12 pm
Jehovah, if you’re really up there, let Roger Federer win this one…
Since 1914, he’s won 5 US Opens. Don’t let him lose simply because he’s been overlapped by the Novak Djokovic generation. (There, I made it relevant to this thread, lol.)
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 13, 2015 at 6:15 pm
Scratch this off-topic sports comment. I want to be lighthearted here, but not to the point of being flippant. Besides, Roger might actually win and cause me to have to re-evaluate some things…
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 13, 2015 at 10:25 pm
@JB Breezner. Federer Lost!!! I don’t think you have been Donating Enough Money,Time,& Energy to our MOST HOLY & MOST Wonderful Governing Body!!!!! Jehovah obviously hasn’t answered your Prayer!!
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 13, 2015 at 11:18 pm
You crack me up, PB! I know!! I watched the whole tragic match. Truthfully, the surest way to get somebody to lose is to have ME root for them! I have about a 1% success rate in choosing winners. Maybe I should go back to rooting for the Org. That way, they would surely collapse! Good night, my friend :)
Reply
Ted says:
September 13, 2015 at 4:44 pm
Just to be clear, the categories I’m referring to,
are worldly or otherwise.
Reply
Ted says:
September 13, 2015 at 5:07 pm
ruthlee I’m honoured to be regarded as your brother.
I wish you well in all you do.
Reply
ruthlee says:
September 14, 2015 at 1:01 am
sweet
Reply
ruthlee says:
September 14, 2015 at 1:03 am
thanks ted we are all in this together ruth lee
Reply
Catalina says:
September 13, 2015 at 6:33 pm
Soooo…. that means people who died during the 9/11 attacks will be resurrected but if their families wont make it if they are still worldly people when harmagedon strikes. I think someone in charge wants everyone to live and made this rule up. Thank you, you guys for answering my question.
Reply
Catalina says:
September 13, 2015 at 6:34 pm
Soooo…. that means people who died during the 9/11 attacks will be resurrected but their families wont make it if they’re worldly when harmagedon strikes. I think someone in charge wants everyone to live and made this rule up. Thank you, you guys for answering my question
Reply
LOL says:
September 13, 2015 at 9:02 pm
“The delusion, absurdity and self-indulgence speaks for itself.” As does yours Mr. Cedars. As does yours.
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 13, 2015 at 9:43 pm
“As does yours”? You mean you agree with Cedars’ observations about the Org, but you also think that he shares those same debilitating qualities? That’s a fairly schizophrenic position to take…
Reply
LOL says:
September 14, 2015 at 9:45 am
Are you his guardian?
Reply
anonymous says:
September 14, 2015 at 11:41 am
LOL, what is the matter with you???? If you have a problem with Cedars, then why not identify yourself and what is your problem with Cedars? If you don’t like this web site, then go some place else.
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 14, 2015 at 1:25 pm
@LOL: No, I’m not anyone’s guardian (except for my little doggy). It just appeared to me that you may have structured your zinger improperly. That, added to the tinge of unwarranted self-satisfaction, struck me personally as mildly offensive and worthy of a mildly defensive reply. It was mostly an issue of your phrasing.
As for defending Cedars, I would never presume that he would need me or anyone else for that. Besides, if you’re in disagreement with him, or with what you find on this site that has educated and comforted so many, that would be more of an issue of your insanity. I have yet to find an effective verbal defense against that.
But, if I misunderstood your intent, please accept my apology and have a nice day :)
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 13, 2015 at 9:57 pm
@LOL . We all have Faults my CRITICAL FRIEND !! There is a BIG BIG Difference between The 7 EVIL MEN of BROOKLYN & Cedars …. The 7 EVIL GB are MANIPULATING & ROBBING 8 MILLION INNOCENT People of their TIME, ENERGY, MONEY,REAL ESTATE,WILLS,STOCKS&SHARES.PENSIONS & CHILDREN of their ICE CREAM MONEY!!!
& WHAT FOR? To FINANCE A PROPERTY & PUBLISHING EMPIRE!!!
Reply
Wip it says:
September 13, 2015 at 9:26 pm
Thats a point i see all the time, someone who has died in the past comes back & all their non JW wicked family are killed of, & they go where are my kids, etc, that is not a god of love thing, we had an elder use the term “big BBQ” at the end, totaly deranged, here’s another question that i have asked a few, the bible talks about domestic animals in the NS, the question is will our pets die, the answer i get is yes, god has only given the hope of everlasting life to humans, but i say revelation says thet death will be no more, so we will have to cope with animals dyeing another flaw. Ever have a child that has lost a beloved pet, no love their.
Reply
ruthlee says:
September 14, 2015 at 1:13 am
hi folks just to wind hubby up i asked him to lead the fs with a quiz,. can anyone explain the generations in three scriptures .ha ha said he would have trouble explaining it .just a thought about the menlo cong those dear bros were appointed to look after sheep how devastating to be turned upon and ripped open in a court of law over money. greed has eaten up this rotten lot we call the slave ,yes i reckon the lunatics have taken over the asylum just think im part of a dual generation i can say whatever age i am and i knew elvis ha ha (no i didnt) lets all think of a loony topic and send it to crooklyn and see if the god channel is open. so much for a highway of holiness more the grand ol information superhighway , a new babel bringing knowledge together wether for good or bad its on record for all to see end of rant ruthlee
Reply
anonymous says:
September 14, 2015 at 3:25 am
My husband would never think to put on jwbroadcasting so I put it on for him to watch so after he watched it, I asked him if he could explain the overlapping generation to me and his comment was “I have to watch it again” so I put it on for him again yesterday. I haven’t asked him again but just the fact that he said he had to watch it again, says a lot.
Reply
Nick says:
September 14, 2015 at 3:25 am
I think this time they have really proven how wacky they are. When I imagine the GB meeting and discussing directives it must be something out of Alice in Wonderland -THE MAD HATTERS LUNCH.
Reply
Ted says:
September 14, 2015 at 4:10 am
The bouncing of the Menlo Park elders for daring to challenge
Hierarchical authority. Exposes the “Designed to flatter teaching”
of being appointed by Holy Spirit as a load of eyewash.
“When the order comes down from the Pope defrocking a priest
and kicking him out. He no longer has a say in the matter. —
( Calvin Rous, WT, attorney )
“One is your master, all of you are brothers”. Matt,23:8.
Reply
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← Inducing phobias: How the Watchtower uses irrational fears to solidify membership
12 things we learned from Geoffrey Jackson’s testimony at the Royal Commission →
David Splane explains the overlapping generation teaching (without actually explaining it)
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Posted on September 10, 2015
David Splane grapples with the "overlapping generation" teaching in a new video
David Splane grapples with the “overlapping generation” teaching in a new video
The September JW Broadcasting episode is now available on tv.jw.org, and for any avid follower of goings-on at Watchtower this month’s offering from the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ is a must-watch.
Governing Body member David Splane addresses his audience on one of the many subjects best swept under the rug by Watchtower – the incomprehensible “overlapping generation” teaching.
Simply put, this teaching (which first appeared in the April 15, 2010 Watchtower) is a hastily-contrived get-out-of-jail-free card for the failed 1914 “this generation” teaching.
For decades Watchtower publications insisted that Armageddon was imminent because, they argued, the generation of anointed Witnesses (who believed they were going to heaven) who witnessed and understood the events of 1914 would not die out before Armageddon arrived.
This claim was based on Matthew 24:34, where Jesus told his followers that the generation that witnessed various apocalyptic signs would not die out until all his words, including the “great tribulation” (the prelude to Armageddon), came true.
So certain was Watchtower of this claim that it even had it included in its masthead for the Awake! magazine…
awake-page-4-generation-masthead-oct-1995-tn
That is, until they quietly changed the masthead to read as follows…
awake-page-4-masthead-nov-1995-tn
Increasingly it became obvious that Watchtower’s self-imposed time limit on Armageddon had expired, because too much time had passed since 1914 for there to be any survivors among Jehovah’s Witnesses old enough to have memories of the outbreak of World War I. In fact, at the time of writing in September 2015, only 50 individuals older than 110 years old are known to still be alive.
“New light” was called for, and in 1995 and 2008 the organization made various stabs at squaring the circle. Paul Grundy has done a great job of documenting these fluctuating “understandings” on his JWfacts resource.
The most recent solution, as proposed by Watchtower in 2010 (and regurgitated by Splane in the above clip), is to essentially embellish Jesus’ words by suggesting that “this generation” doesn’t have to be just one generation, but can be two.
The first “group” of “this generation” would witness and understand the events of 1914, and the second group would be those who were born before the last individuals in the first group died (hence an “overlapping” generation).
If you don’t understand this, it is not due to any failure on your part. It is because it doesn’t make sense. The teaching rides roughshod over the English language, redefining what “generation” means, and relying on the audience to willfully bypass their logical thinking skills by asserting the incomprehensible as indisputable truth.
After all, if you can arbitrarily insist that a generation can be composed of two groups, why not have three, four, five – on into infinity? The word “generation” quickly loses all meaning.
The wisest course of action for Watchtower would have been to either distance itself from the “overlapping generation” teaching as a well-meaning slip-up (perhaps by arguing “this generation” was figurative rather than literal), or ignore the matter altogether.
Instead, the Governing Body apparently concluded that a 12-minute video presentation rehashing the teaching, complete with diagram and stick pointer, was just what the doctor ordered.
Their mistake is an inevitable byproduct of their delusion and bullish devotion to their own contrived dogma. It is, to my mind, further proof that the Governing Body are not cynical con-men but really do believe their own nonsense – and expect us to believe it too. Otherwise, they would have steered clear of the subject entirely, and spoken about something more compelling and universally appealing.
In addition to this obvious faux pas, I am also delighted at David Splane’s performance, which wreaked of cheesiness and insincerity…
As a side note – Splane is among three Governing Body members (together with Herd and Losch) who have apparently opted to deliver their JW Broadcasting episodes alongside “helpers” from the various Governing Body committees. The other Governing Body members (Lett, Morris, Sanderson and Jackson) tend to appear by themselves. I can’t help but question Splane’s decision to appear with a co-host, since he is in my view one of the more competent, persuasive speakers on the Governing Body. His uneasy interactions with his co-host only serve to undo the forcefulness of his individual presentation.
A costly mistake
When JW Broadcasting was first announced 11 months ago I said at the time it was great news. The worst thing the Governing Body could possibly do was reveal themselves to their doting followers. It is far easier to respect and admire your leaders when you can’t see or hear them. Having them thrusted at your TV screen or computer monitor in all their bumbling, arrogant, senile, jewelry-flashing glory changes the whole dynamic.
Yes, we have seen some extremely potent pieces of indoctrination designed to pull on the heart strings and appeal to people’s emotions. The standard episode will feature at least one visually appealing interview segment with powerful imagery and stirring music, in which a loyal Witness tears up as he or she relates how Jehovah’s hand has come to their rescue against all odds.
I will continue to do my best to expose these clearly coercive methods in my JW Broadcasting rebuttal videos. But I am growing increasingly confident that to any sincere, intellectually honest Witness capable of rudimentary reasoning skills, no rebuttals are needed. The delusion, absurdity and self-indulgence speaks for itself.
new-cedars-signature3
Further reading…
◾Friendly Atheist article
◾To see a list of video rebuttals to JW Broadcasting episodes, click here.
◾To read the JWfacts page on changes to the generation teaching, click here.
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← Inducing phobias: How the Watchtower uses irrational fears to solidify membership
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358 Responses to David Splane explains the overlapping generation teaching (without actually explaining it)
← Older Comments
Gameisover says:
September 14, 2015 at 5:31 am
The problem of what they believe regarding the resurrection is that they apply to themselves, the”anointed”, all the words of the New Testament.
The message there is clearly a heavenly hope for everyone. Paul says in 1Cor.15 that if there is a physical body there is also a spiritual one. That people will be changed at the twinkling of the eye. They have gone so far
as to say that Jesus is their mediator only. For those who are believers and considering that they’ve demoted him to being an angel, may wonder WHO really is the anti-Christ? How could we have believed all of that? I guess we can empathize with those who believe it now.
Waking up to life has been the greatest gift.
Reading all of you helped me tremendously, plus reading dozens of books in the past years.
Thank you
Reply
A Patient Man says:
September 14, 2015 at 5:47 am
Since the beginning of my life as a youngster I prided myself on reading and trying very hard to understand what I read from the bible and the mountain of material that was provided for us. Then in turn be able to explain it to someone with a good heart, (we believe that we know if someone has a good heart), the reality is that we don’t really know about their heart condition, that most important determination belongs to God, and their life lies in his very capable hands. So after a very long time being a witness I have finally figured out that if something was written under inspiration, or however they want to tell you they received the understanding, (for example, the generation topic), then for 50 or 60 years or even longer it should be able to stand the test of time and not be changed. The number of beliefs that have been changed, some of which have been around for close to 100 years, is staggering. The truth is I no longer try to keep up, the reality is my brain is turning to mush. I hear the friends, and even my family members try vainly to explain what they think the understanding is on these ever changing topics. I am much happier not worrying what is new and what is old, and if I am ask by anyone to explain these changes I simply say, I cannot. The ones that I say this to get a funny look on their face and move on to the next unsuspecting victim looking for the answer that will make them happy. At a dinner with family, some of these changes came up in the discussion and I sat quietly by and listened, it is amazing when you sit and listen carefully what you will hear. And another reason I don,t say anything is that I not longer feel like being chastised by my family for not being spiritual enough, or heaven forbid not keeping up with the “light”. To tell all of you the truth I feel like Lilly Von Schtupp ,(spelling?), in the movie Blazing Saddles when she said, “I’m Tired’. I am glad those of you that write, that your brain is still functioning on all cylinders, keep up the good fight!
Reply
anonymous says:
September 14, 2015 at 6:21 am
@A Patient Man, I was exactly the same as you. I couldn’t keep up anymore and so my brain had turned to mush. Once I started to see all the lies and over-ups of the Society and I started to use my brain again, I realized that I actually did have a functioning brain after all. When I look around at all those that are in the Organization and think it’s the “truth”, I feel sorry for them.
I was listening to a couple of videos from a youtuber called Christian Comedy Channel and he has several videos where he is discussing with Witnesses, the book “What Does the Bible Really Teach” and he discusses 1914, failed prophecies, the overlapping generation and flip flopping doctrines and what the Witnesses would tell him is something to the effect “that is what we used to think but now we believe this”. So, what those Witnesses were saying in effect is that they left their brains go dead and whatever the Society says is what they now believe and they can’t think for themselves anymore. It’s truly sad.
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questionall451 says:
September 14, 2015 at 7:46 am
A patient man,
I feel very much the same. I checked out a few years ago, the last time we went through the wonderful Revelation book. I remember sitting there like a deer looking into oncoming headlights, wondering how I would explain that each of the 7 trumpet blasts correspond to a resolution passed at a CederPoint Ohio convention. Or how the army of locusts is leaving behind stinging judgement messeges in the Watchtower and Awake publications. The whole thing was an elaborate house of cards. If even one of these interpetations is wrong, the whole mess just falls apart.
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Pickled brain says:
September 14, 2015 at 9:03 am
@questionall451. Don’t Worry I FELT the SAME as YOU after studying the RED REVELATION book for the Third Time.!! Those DAMN TRUMPET BLASTS always Got Me !! & the The DAMN Stinging Locusts! I knew NO-ONE on the Ministry would Believe or Understand the GB Explanation of that rubbish!!
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 14, 2015 at 10:40 am
I was still thoroughly snowed when we went through that book in the mid 90’s, but I do remember a slight tingly feeling as I saw that all the little infinitesimal early goings-on of the WTBTS were supposedly addressed prophetically throughout the chapters of Revelation. I didn’t doubt that I had the Truth. I just thought that maybe there were some things there that they weren’t exactly 100% right about. I was 100% dumb. But I’m being treated for that condition now.
Your user image is great. Applewhite/Lett -two world-class space cadets. When the GB starts talking about the Hale-Bopp comet, you hanger-onners better get the HELL outta there!
Reply
Outlookingin says:
September 14, 2015 at 12:47 pm
Aha! Some fellow Revelation book doubters. I recall driving home each week after the book study and telling my husband how hard I found it to agree with the material. He always asked whether it really mattered, and I had to agree that many of the things I struggled with were of little significance. Eventually I ceased answering in the book study because I felt such a hypocrite doing so. We decided at the time that we had the big things right and this seemed to keep us going. Of course, more recently we have changed our minds about having the big things right. One can hardly say of the generation teaching that it doesn’t really matter, that it is of little consequence! I just wish I had listened to my head of reason back then with the Revelation book (and others) and not continued sacrificing so much time and energy.
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briefcasecollectingdust says:
September 15, 2015 at 11:35 am
I couldnt agree more…I had to conduct the revelation book in the 90’s and I must say , I never really got to grips with it…that was then this is now…
Important to get out there and live life!
Learn from the past and move on…
Shame the internet wasnt around in 1986 as we would never had made such a mistake..
Saying that, look at how a whole nation was duped last century..I wonder how many have asked ” how did we believe that?”
But cest la vie!
Must go …red wine is saying “drink me”….
Ted says:
September 14, 2015 at 6:39 am
JBR, Garrett, PB,
Zeppelin, Sabbath, The Who did you say, I’m well out of the
loop here guys. I can only go back as far as O’l Blue Eyes,
and am struggling to “Overlap”.
Reply
Ted says:
September 14, 2015 at 7:59 am
JB,Reezner, Garrett, Pickled Brain.
Sabbath, Zeppelin, and Who did you say. I’m well out of the
loop here guys, just not my generation. I can only go back to
O’l Blue Eyes, and I’m struggling with the “Overlapping.
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 14, 2015 at 10:15 am
Yes Ted, “Behind Blue Eyes” was a GREAT song by The Who! Oh, no, you mean Sinatra. He was great, indeed. I mean, he wasn’t part of my personal music collection, but I liked My Way, New York, New York, Somethin’ Stupid, That’s Life, etc. But I do see where it would be difficult for a fan of primarily his type of music to transition from that style to the music that came along shortly after.
But if history has taught us anything, it’s that we members of previous generations can join together (Join Together, by the way, another great Who song) in HATING the garbage on the radio that kids are listening to these days! (seriously)
Reply
OG_NorthVan says:
September 14, 2015 at 1:02 pm
Michael Buble revived the song New York, New York, Somethin’ Stupid, That’s Life, etc. Are Michael Buble and Frank Sinatra belong to the same generation?
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Pickled brain says:
September 14, 2015 at 12:11 pm
@Ted. I like Frank Sinatras song ‘I DID IT MY WAY’
Love the Words! …. ‘THE END is NEAR’ …. ‘ The FINAL CURTAIN ‘ …,, ‘I DID it MY WAY’ … I wonder if Good Old Frank was a SECRET GB Anointed Member’ ????
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 14, 2015 at 2:35 pm
@Ted. ‘THE END is NEAR’ …. ‘The FINAL CURTAIN ‘
…I DID IT MY WAY’ !!!! This could be the Signature Tune of the Governing Body!! Perhaps Good Old FRANK was a Secret Member of the GB???
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 14, 2015 at 3:28 pm
PB that was BRILLIANT! A+ to you!
And maybe for us, “Start spreadin’ the news, I’m leavin’ todayyy”. Okay, maybe not. That’s a song about going TO New York instead of gettin’ the HELL outta there!
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 14, 2015 at 11:21 pm
@JB Reezner. THANKS JB,much appreciated.We have a similar sense of humour. When I comment at meetings my wife (who idolises the GB) says my answers sound nearly Apostate like!!!
I have been counselled by the Watchtower Overseer !! Doesn’t stop me though!
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 15, 2015 at 10:21 am
Excellent, PB. I know that surely you’d rather not be there, but I guess if you have to be, you can at least say some things that might make other WT victims THINK. Good on ya!
Pickled brain says:
September 15, 2015 at 3:35 pm
@PB Reezner. I was reading your comments dedicated to me with the song ‘BABA O’RILEY’ when my wife walked into the room & asked me what I was looking at!!! I switched to the Weather App …. I said ‘ Dear I am just checking the weather for tomorrow ‘ then switched back to jwsurvey & your comments were deleted !!! I ASK YOU!! BABA O’RILEY I AM SURE is STEPHEN LETTS ‘Nickname ‘??? So it is related to the Thread Slimly???
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 17, 2015 at 6:00 pm
Hahaha, Weather App! That comment just killed me.. (And again, YOU are “PB”, I am “JB” dammit!)
Yes, Lett is surely scouring the web looking for JW traitors! Be careful, because he can be DANGEROUS even when he is saying things that make you think he cares about you! Here is a rare video of him interacting with a helpless young brother: https://youtu.be/ArNz8U7tgU4
Tara says:
September 16, 2015 at 8:40 pm
Haha I’m going to post that on my fb page. In-joke that only myself and a few others will get. Bit like Guardian Of the Doctrine….. GOD. You guys crack me up.
Reply
ruthlee says:
September 14, 2015 at 8:33 am
dear a patient man guess what i had was terminal brainmush bordering on failure to thrive a very serious self diagnosable condition actually a requirement if you qualify as a jw in lala land .the remedy Stop reading drivel and if you feel so inclined go back to reading the Bible only. i did my last jw spew the return to Jehovah brochure and miracle of miracles that is exactly what i have done im putting on spiritual weight just like a baby getting bonny and strong ..so there is a cure Gods word. its not rocket science and its free and you can stop the cure anytime you please .ive returned to God with the aid of these friends here of all pursuasions and no more mashed potato coming out of my ears its great. you will know when your brain starts to work again because you start getting cheeky about the loons who govern us and then you parody them and final cure, uncontrollable laughter. after all laughter is the best medicine anyone fancy half a pint of generation gap its on tap at hq. tee hee ruthlee
Reply
Average Joe says:
September 14, 2015 at 9:01 am
Hi all,
Just received this new Public Talk outline (Nº 192) and the second section has some very interesting statements, and I quote:
“We need strong confidence in the Bible to choose a path contrary to the one followed by others around us
If you are not fully convinced that the Bible is God’s Word, then examine the evidence (g 11/07 5-9)
Use the Bible to examine your current beliefs carefully
Jesus emphasized the need for our beliefs to be based on truth [Read John 4:23, 24]
Like the apostle Paul, be willing to change your beliefs when presented with evidence (Ac 26:9-20)”
I would so like to give this one. I already stress in some other talks I have that we have to PERSONALLY check to make sure a teaching rings true with what we already know from the Bible, even if we hear it from the platform but I thought that this outline could be very handy in defending yourself for disagreeing with a WTS Policy.
Here’s a copy of the actual outline (valid only for 7 days on WeTransfer so get it whilst it’s hot!):http://we.tl/1EnHB6GcQ7
All the best.
AJ
Reply
Robert67 says:
September 14, 2015 at 12:35 pm
No thanks on the outline, I’m in the middle of a bs cleanse at the moment. Just a suggestion, perhaps as a matter of showing how the jw brotherhood has embraced change bring up a few of the failed prophecies that the gb has mustered up over the years. Maybe you could start by criticizing other faiths and pointing to Moses playbook to how to inherit the promised land Deutoronomy 18:20-22, Segway into the very wise council given in Proverbs 30:5,6 and how Jesus closes all scripture in the closing words of the Bible in Revelation 22: 18-21. Make a huge deal of people who exploit scripture for profit and are proven liars and false prophets when they say God is doing something and then he doesn’t, or they twist Gods word in every manner to suit their agenda. Maybe the body could be building up people like Russel, Ruggerford, Franz etc.. and then close mentioning your closing text Acts 26:9-20 and try to decent the failed 1914 Armageddon date, how Russel got it wrong about all the annointed having been completed in 1881, how Rutherford got the millions now living will never die bit off, how perhaps he jumped the gun saying the prophets of old were to arrive in 1925 and building them a luxury mansion, which he conveniently lived and passed away in. How 1975 was really just a guesstimate and everyone makes mistakes and that we all according to Paul’s words, screw all those other Biblical exortations, are supposed to just “be ready to embrace the new, new, new thing. Just an idea for your talk, I’m sure you can find a way to word it so that it seems genuinely in defence of GB.
Reply
Robert67 says:
September 14, 2015 at 12:40 pm
Laser keyboard, facepalm at all the misspelled words.
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 14, 2015 at 1:42 pm
“Ruggerford” is turning over in his grave for that mistake! Oops, I mean he’s turning over in Heaven. I can see him now, cruising those streets of gold in his 16-cylinder Cadillac, screaming “I’m the Generalissimooo!”
Reply
briefcasegone says:
September 15, 2015 at 6:31 am
jb reezner
…feel as though I know you so well!!
truly well written ..
JB Reezner says:
September 15, 2015 at 10:26 am
I really appreciate that, briefcasegone. I’m still feeling out the boundaries here and hoping not to offend anyone. Glad to meet ya!
Pickled brain says:
September 14, 2015 at 2:42 pm
@Robert67 . CLEVER,VERY CLEVER… I LIKE YOUR CUNNING!! There are subtle ways to show up the STUPIDITY of the GB & that’s the best way to appear to be on the GB Side but SOW SEEDS of DOUBT & Playing Theocratic Warfare in Reverse… Brilliant!!
Reply
Searcher says:
September 14, 2015 at 9:50 am
I do believe that the WTS has the same exact predicament with the ‘overlapping generations’ that they claim that the rest of ‘Christendom’ has when trying to explain the trinity.
Ha Ha Ha!!!! The shoe is now on the other foot. How funny!
Reply
ruthlee says:
September 14, 2015 at 2:20 pm
last post of the day i needed this today ive set up a menu and invited a few birds to feast on all the garbage that has accumulated,. here is the list, the blue footed booby, the roseate spoonbill. the lyre bird, a murder of crows ,an unkindness of ravens and of course the loon enjoy your meal its on us rl
Reply
Bad Penny says:
September 14, 2015 at 4:48 pm
Oh, the RUDDY RED REVELATION BOOK!
It is ironic how the Watchtower made all the relevant bits apply to them, judgement messages, trumpet blasts, etc. What they failed to recognize is that because they too have misled millions, they are part of Babylon the Great and will receive the same plagues – hopefully!
Just a point, there are certain illustrations in there which caused me concern: Page 52 the demon hand behind Jesus. Also what appears to be the destruction of the ‘twin towers’ on the same page. The mention on Page 106, para 7, ‘The fearful threat of TERRORISTS or states using ‘WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION’ has many people wondering.’
This was way before George W. spoke of same – Spooky!!
Of course, the old thought on the generation starting in 1914 was still being taught in 1988. Obviously the ‘insight’ on this doctrine was a little late in coming!!
Reply
Ted says:
September 14, 2015 at 4:59 pm
Problems only arise with Matt 24,when you remove it from it’s
proper time frame ( Jesus Own Generation) and try to apply it
to some future random generation. Which according to WT.org
happens to be this greatly extended one that began in 1914.
Different generations in the past have also claimed, it was to
their time that those Bible verses applied.
There is no confusion if we let the Bible speak for itself and not
try to impose meanings upon it.
Jesus unambiguously ties the fulfilment to his own time only
At Matt 16:27-27. ( to paraphrase) Jesus is coming with his
Angels to mete out justice, and there are some standing here
who will not taste death, till they see the son coming in his
Kingdom,
For those imposing a future fulfilment, these verses present a
problem, so they sidestep this by misapplying the reference
of some there seeing Jesus coming in his Kingdom. And claim
it refers to the Transfiguration.
If you read the transfiguration account in Matt ch,17. you will
instantly see it has no connection with the previous verses.
Nowhere is there any reference to Jesus coming with his
Angels to administer any justice.– That happened in 70CE
and Within that Generation
Rev,22:7 Jesus says, “I come quickly” by no stretch of the
imagination can 2000 plus years be described in those terms.
Some similar references to the urgency, are- Jas, 5:8-9,
1pet, 4:7 & 17.
Move Matt 24, out of context, and all kinds of unsatisfactory
scriptural contortions are required and it still won’t make sense.
Reply
eyes opened says:
September 14, 2015 at 7:50 pm
Amen.
Reply
Robertperez67 says:
September 14, 2015 at 8:34 pm
Since you never get to read it at the hall, Mathew 24: keeps going by adding this bit “But if ever that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ 49 and he STARTS TO BEAT his fellow slaves and to eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, 50 the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, 51 and he will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his place with the HYPOCRITES. There is where his weeping and the gnashing of his teeth will be. ———-• Here in Puerto Rico, there are some serious changes coming. The flood gates have been open and the congregations will slowly be learning these truths, so much good work to do. I really hope everyone helping others come to learn these truths about the WT does so respectfully and keeps in mind that the main instrument the friends will listen to is scripture and reasoning the way they are used to. Blatant God bashing comments are only going to make them put up a thicker wall against anything you have to say, regardless of how logical your argument is. Even in my case God will never be in the wrong. Many, many like myself will wake up, because we, unlike a good portion of the friends, have actually read the Bible over and over. We will always place Gods word, his sons message of love, mercy, healing, and freedom from religious oppression over that of the self appointed and treadmill allergic seven.
The absolute majority of the friends have seen cowardly shift supervisors (elders) strike down with great vengeance on under age sinners for sins they committed while being sinful kids, a condition which God left us in, hence the need for his sons sacrifice, whose blood worth outweighs any sins we can possibly commit and still they shun children at their most crucial stage in life. We have to stay focused on attacking the cult and not the faith. Keep informing the masses as to the brain fart methodology used by these dangerously uneducated oppressors. Keep instilling in the friends that no man, not even the 7 samurai, can alter Gods word.
I cannot picture any media outlet takeing faith bashers seriously, if you bash the Bible you insult a billion viewers. No sponsor can back up or push a hate site or podcast. We have to see the bigger picture and be self sacrificing in this “crusade” to free the mentally enslaved.
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 14, 2015 at 10:27 pm
Great points, Robert. Sensitivity to people’s varied levels of religious faith is vital here. I’m new here (my favorite excuse!) and I’m still going through the phase of regretting the tone and content of at least A THIRD of my comments immediately after I hit the Post Comment button.
I don’t want to seem self-important enough to think you were referring to some of my comments, but if you do run across any submission of mine that seems to cross a line, please feel free to directly reply with something like “Okay, reel it in, JB! You went too far, you idiot!!”, and I will take the reminder to heart. Okay, you won’t really need to call me an idiot. (It will just be implied, lol.)
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Doc Obvious says:
September 15, 2015 at 6:35 am
After reviewing the broadcast network from Governing Body member David Splane, I am still confused. The Scripture states “this generation”, not “these generations”. Watchtower continues to Band-Aid their broken prophesies.
Reply
ruthlee says:
September 15, 2015 at 7:06 am
hi ted and robert loved your thoughts and explanations its so true we have to be loving and kind but sometimes the anger and frustration arises within i suppose thats where really being a Christian shows up. the scriptures really are unalterable and speak Truth anyone is at liberty to read a Bible if they choose to .i guess so many got out of the habit and have been kept busy doing nothing. i hope we will look back at this time and realise we were part of a testimony that brought about some change and enlightenment as a force for good . what do you think?ruthlee
Reply
Robertperez67 says:
September 15, 2015 at 12:24 pm
Ruthlee, truly scripture is not to be altered. I would add that christendoms biggest flaws lie in those “prophets” who claim to interpret Gods word. It’s message is pretty clear; be good, be good to others, help the poor, the weak, share Jesus message of love and sit tight, waiting on him. 2 Peter 1:20 states “For you know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation.”
When Paul wrote the letter to the Colossians he was writing to a congregation he had never and would never visit. He only knew what one of his fellow prisoners in Rome had told him of this specific congregation. There is no exortation by Paul to write to a GB or ask what a faithful slave said on the matter. Paul was writing to people living in the real world, facing real problems and real temptations. Paul knew Jesus words to his father stating that his followers should not be hermits in the world, but live freely amongst all people in every way setting Christ example of love and sharing his message of hope. That is why Paul reminded the Colossians in their disorientated (by many opinions) state, that their focus should be on Christ teachings, that Christ was in each one of us, and each one of us in Christ. Sadly as JW’s we have been conditioned to give Christ passing honor and to give most glory to the mother ship in Brooklyn. Once Toto pulled the curtain back and unveiled false prophecy after false prophecy after false prophecy after false prophecy, some of which actually cost people their very lives, livelihoods and absolutely worst of all their faith in Gods word, well……..Please continue to read your Bible, discovering and not interpreting Gods will.
Reply
ruthlee says:
September 15, 2015 at 1:40 pm
spot on so very true .peace and godslove ruthlee
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Doc Obvious says:
September 15, 2015 at 7:30 am
David Splane talks to his lemmings. YouTube has a nice video on lemmings. Lemming video. You can see the parallels between a JW and a lemming.
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Pickled brain says:
September 15, 2015 at 3:44 pm
@PB Reezner. ‘TEENAGE WASTELAND ‘ sounds like the story of Teenage JWs getting Baptised too Early to make a Rational Decision with their lives.!! Geoffrey Jackson Baptised at 11 proves my point!
Thanks For the Dedication on a previous post. My Mother ???BABA O’ RILEY ???had a Really Tough Life being Baptised as a Teenager. Made the wrong decision!! Keep up the Excellent Comments PB!
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Wip it says:
September 15, 2015 at 5:29 pm
We have just had a change of Prime Minister here in OZ, mid term removal, its interesting comments that are coming out, re: the end must be so close & we need the kingdom, i did a bit of research & discovered that 23 out of the last 29 didnt go the distance, wether it was resignation, death or removal, so i just say to them that the modern media swamps us all the time, so looking back at history this is nothing new,
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Lee Elvin says:
September 19, 2015 at 3:44 am
I found it explained it pretty well , Joseph and his brothers were all of one “Generation ” Joseph was nearly 40 when his brothers including Benjamin who was then a young man, called “boy” in scripture came down to Egypt during the famine , different ages but all
“one generation of brothers ” thats not hard to grasp at all !
https://www.rt.com/news/315475-un-general-assembly-opening/
scroll down to un ga presidents comment on the 15/09/2015 its in the box .
1 Thessalonians 5:3 sound familiar , now is that JW
prophecy or bible prophecy ?
Please read the brochure below and dont be fooled into losing your eternal future .
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/return-to-jehovah/
Please contact me if you require loving compassionate assistance from someone who has returned to Jehovah.
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Excelsior! says:
September 19, 2015 at 3:58 am
Lee,
Thank you for your sincere interest in our salvation.
Have you looked at Matthew 1:17?
A simple calculation provides a generation lasting for around 40 years.
I have read the “Return to Jehovah” brochure and it has failed to convince me to return.
You have obviously made a different decision, which is your right.
Have you thoroughly researched the WTBTS? Have you conducted your own independent research on its policies and history?
There are plenty of articles here and on other sites to allow you to conduct your own research.
I hope that you will take the time to examine your faith, and make sure that you are doing what you want to do, in line with your conscience.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
Lee Elvin says:
September 19, 2015 at 4:12 am
Yes i have all the way back to its beginnings and i am fully convinced that bible prophecy is being fullfilled right before our eyes .
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anonymous says:
September 19, 2015 at 4:56 am
@Lee Elvin, Let’s say that Bible prophecy is being fulfilled. What exactly does the Bible say that pinpoints our day? Does it say anything about the United Nations like what the Watchtower claims or do you “read into the Bible” United Nations when you read Revelation? I was “seeing” United Nations instead of a 7 headed beast (or whatever it really says) because I believed God was giving the Society a special understanding.
I believed God was directing the Organization but if you read the literature, you will see that they do not claim to be “inspired” but “spirit directed”.
They can’t claim to be inspired or else they would be claiming to be Bible writers the same as Paul and Moses. So, all they can “claim” is that God chose their organization in 1919 so what you need to do is look at what was being printed in 1919 and see if those doctrines or beliefs are the same today as when Jesus and Jehovah supposedly chose the Watchtower religion.
That is the religion that was supposedly the only “approved” religion chosen by them. So, if the teachings or doctrines have changed, you need to ask yourself why?
To say that the “truth” gets brighter with time is simply a “cop out”. If you want us to “return to Jehovah”, then you need to show us why God would choose the Watchtower religion of today over the Watchtower of 1919 when they were celebrating Christmas, the cross and birthdays and Rutherford said when all the women who were going to heaven would be changed to men at the end of the thousand years and the skin of the black man would be changed to white.
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Lee Elvin says:
September 19, 2015 at 5:38 am
only the bible is inspired
Pickled brain says:
September 19, 2015 at 4:25 am
@Lee Elvin . The BIG PROBLEM,Lee is that the GB have changed the meaning of ‘GENERATION ‘ 5 times since 1874 ! 3 times since 1993 when the GB were saying it meant No More than 70 or 80 years . Then in 1995 it was aWicked Generation of Contemporary People & Now since about 2010 an ‘Overlapping Generation ‘ …LEE I GUARANTEE YOU in 20 years time the GB will CHANGE Interpretation AGAIN!! Because they CANT change 1914 as then 1919 would be BASELESS when Jesus supposedly chose the F&D Slave!! There are NO SCRIPTURES for 1919,1931,1935 etc .. JUST MAN MADE by Rutherford & Clayton Woodworth!
LEE you belong to an EVIL ORGANISATION that has HIDDEN CHILD ABUSERS!!You will wake up one day!!
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Lee Elvin says:
September 19, 2015 at 4:38 am
I believe bible prophecy will be fulfilled when Jehovah sees fit at “his appointed time ” no man knows the hour .
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anonymous says:
September 19, 2015 at 1:22 pm
@Lee Elvin, can you explain how Bible prophecy will be fulfilled from Revelation? Can you explain the two Armageddons and Gog of Magog attacking God’s people AFTER THE THOUSAND YEARS HAVE ENDED without using Watchtower explanations???? Aren’t all those people supposed to be in heaven at that time? Also at the end of the 1,000 years of Jesus Christ’s rule, mankind is supposed to be raised to perfection, yet according to Revelation, all the “nations” will war against God AGAIN when the Watchtower says that anybody rebelling against God’s rule during the thousand years will be done away with. Please explain Revelation and the great tribulation and also while you are at it, explain to us how the evidence is so easy to see that Jesus is ruling in heaven (invisibly) and the evidence is more clear than electricity and wind when you can see evidence of electricity and wind? Saying that WW1 broke out in 1914 doesn’t answer it because the war broke out in the summer of 1914 but Satan wasn’t thrown to the earth until October of that year.
You seem to understand the explanation of the over-lapping generation. Just how long have you been in the “truth”? I have been in this sham religion for 50 years and I don’t understand how it could make any sense so let’s hear what you have a say.
Explain how Jesus chose Joseph Rutherford’s religion over all other religions in 1919 when he was thrown in prison in 1918 and from 1914-1918, the religion was as good as dead and until 1930, they celebrated holidays and birthdays and the cross.
Explain it to us and I will believe again. Explain why God would have chosen Joseph Rutherford when he drove two new Cadillacs and lived in a mansion in California when at the same time, the men working at the Bethels didn’t even have heat in their bunk houses. Explain how he had a full time female nurse that lived with him year around but he didn’t live with his wife?
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Pickled brain says:
September 19, 2015 at 7:05 pm
@Anonymous. Good Reasoning on ALL Your Points Especially Gog & Magog after 1000 years have ended! As you say how can Gog & Magog … Which is now interpreted as ‘Coalition of Nations ‘ instead of Satan… Be attacking JEHOVAHS People on Earth if Gog (Coalition of Nations)was destroyed at Armageddon.!! As usual the More Changes of Interpretation of Scripture by the 7 MIDGETS then MORE HOLES can be found in their NEW LIGHT???
Pickled brain says:
September 19, 2015 at 4:59 pm
@Lee Elvin . You say no man knows the hour !! THEN WHY are YOU FOLLOWING 7 MEN in BROOKLYN Who SHELTER & HIDE CHILD ABUSERS???
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JB Reezner says:
September 19, 2015 at 12:14 pm
Lee, when you say they “explained it pretty well”, I think you may simply mean that you understood Splane’s explanation. That is surely true of most of us here, even though most of our comments understandably center around the convoluted nature of it. But, if you are really telling me that someone who died 10 minutes after Joseph was born, and someone who was born 10 minutes before Joseph died, are BOTH part of Joseph’s generation, then that renders the word “generation” virtually meaningless with regards to the universally accepted purpose for its existence. As Ted noted, by properly using the word, the Bible itself precludes the fantastical, self-serving definition that the GB has invented. Even if it can possibly take on a less-constrained meaning in some instances, the proprietary calculus equation born out of pure desperation that the GB came up with would never satisfy any reasonable standards of its use.
It’s a bummer not knowing if you’re just a troll trying to start some mess. If that isn’t the case, then I hope you will keep looking through sites like this one and JWFacts. We didn’t all simply lose our faith and jump ship so that we are in need of someone to come and remind us that our dear, loving, mother organization cares for us and wants us back. No, as we discovered more things about the Org that were clearly untrue, the Org simply lost its grip on us–that is to say–on our minds. If you are legitimately someone who values truth, then I hope that happens for you some day.
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 19, 2015 at 12:16 pm
Lee, when you say they “explained it pretty well”, I think you may simply mean that you understood Splane’s explanation. That is surely true of most of us here, even though most of our comments understandably center around the convoluted nature of it. But, if you are really telling me that someone who died 10 minutes after Joseph was born, and someone who was born 10 minutes before Joseph died, are BOTH part of Joseph’s generation, then that renders the word “generation” virtually meaningless with regards to the universally accepted purpose for its existence. As Ted noted, by properly using the word, the Bible itself precludes the fantastical, self-serving definition that the GB has invented. Even if it can possibly take on a less-constrained meaning in some instances, the proprietary calculus equation born out of pure desperation that the GB came up with would never satisfy any reasonable standards of its use.
It’s a bummer not knowing if you’re just a troll trying to start some mess. If that isn’t the case, then I hope you will keep looking through sites like this one and JWFacts. We didn’t all simply lose our faith and jump ship so that we are in need of someone to come and remind us that our dear, loving, mother organization cares for us and wants us back. No, as we discovered more things about the Org that were clearly untrue, the Org simply lost its grip on us–that is to say–on our minds. If you are legitimately someone who values real truth, then I hope that happens for you some day.
Reply
Grace says:
September 19, 2015 at 2:33 pm
JB,
“then that renders the word “generation” virtually meaningless with regards to the universally accepted purpose for its existence.”
Thats the bottom line isn’t it? Great wording.
Lee Elvin,
“Please read the brochure below and dont be fooled into losing your eternal future.”
No man holds the keys to the afterlife, if there even is one.
Also, if there is a God that is full of love, justice, wisdom & power then I will let him/her/it be my judge not man.
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 19, 2015 at 6:44 pm
@PB Reezner & @ Grace . VERY WELL REASONED & ARTICULATED in response to LEE ELVIN unlike Lee who is an ARDENT FAN of the 7 MEN in BROOKLYN who HIDE CHILD ABUSERS…. Not One of 1006 Child Abusers were Reported to the Police in Australia. LEE YOU AWFUL HUMAN BEING For Supporting such an EVIL Organisation who is willing to Pay Tens of MILLIONS of Dollars in Compensation to SHUT UP the Mouths of Victims!!
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 19, 2015 at 6:57 pm
@ LEE ELVIN. OHhhh By the Way I have MORE THAN …..’TWO WITNESSES ‘…. On this SITE to YOU … LEE ELVIN… COMMENTING on an APOSTATE SITE such as this !! YOU COULD BE REPROVED for ASSOCIATING with APOSTATES … Remember the constant LOVING??? Counsel from the 7 WISE MIDGETS!!!
NAUGHTY NAUGHTY LEE ELVIN!!! .. You see LEE … GO & TELL Your ELDERS that you have been commenting on this site ….. Or Are YOU AFRAID TO TELL THEM ??? If you are AFRAID then YOU Are in a CULT because you have LOST FREEDOM of SPEECH & you are FRIGHTENED of BEING SHUNNED!!!
Lee Elvin says:
September 20, 2015 at 12:40 am
He is the judge
Reply
Lee Elvin says:
September 20, 2015 at 12:42 am
I just hope my comment is seen by someone who appreciates it and who is on the verge of being misled .
Pickled brain says:
September 20, 2015 at 12:51 am
@LEE ELVIN. ‘He is the Judge’ … If you are referring to Jehovah I would agree with you BUT SADLY the 7 WISE MIDGETS & the BODY of ELDERS are JUDGE , JURY & EXECUTIONER in the Congregations!!!
J.B. Reezner says:
September 20, 2015 at 4:02 pm
7 WISE MIDGETS, you’re killing me Pickled brain! But I think we’ve been led down the troll road by Mr. Elvin.
JimmyK says:
September 20, 2015 at 7:59 am
I’m not sure why they just didn’t say that it was the generation that saw ALL these things occur. The end started in 1914 but all the signs didn’t occur until some years later. It would have bought them about the same amount of time and made a lot more sense.
I’m posting this here so that if they do try to use this line of reasoning later we will have proof that an apostate thought of it first.
The new definition doesn’t seem to add anything. Even if it did include people of considerably different ages it would still need to have 1914 as the anchor.
I’m hoping to live long enough to see the day when they claim that the bible was using a pre-flood lifespan as for the definition of generation.
Reply
Grace says:
September 21, 2015 at 4:25 pm
JimmyK,
Noted. We’ll check back when they have to adjust it again.
My hubby thinks that they should have just said ‘the generation’ is those that are anointed still living. That could just have left it open-ended.
Reply
Peter Jeuck says:
September 22, 2015 at 3:58 am
What Watchtower needs is a good strategist, one who thinks from outside the box, like me!!! They have painted themselves into a corner big time with their century’s old Armaggedon’s coming message with NO results. What they need to consider is this. Maybe God, Jehovah, whatever he wants to be called, was indeed all ready to send fire and brimstone on humanity in 1914. But what happened is humanity got a heart in the intervening period. While Watchtower was preaching doom and gloom, mankind in its own course began to see that people mattered! There was civil rights, women’s rights, gay rights, child labor, social care, child abuse, and the list of things mankind has found wrong with human society for the thousands of years. Laws have been passed and mankind has made tremendous progress towards recognizing the rights of the masses. So like in the story of Jonah, God rethought the destruction of humanity. In fact so changed was evil humanity, that a Royal Commission displayed far more heart for abuse children than Jehovah’s own earthly representatives as plainly seen by G Jackson’s testimony. So God NOW won’t bring on the destruction of humanity like he originally intended. And Watchotwer like Jonah was pissed that God reneged on destroying Ninevah, is still awaiting the destruction of the world. I think the God changed his mind story is the only out for Watchtower if they plan to survive. You can’t keep preaching the end when then end never comes! You begin to lose a bit of credibility crying wolf all the time.
Reply
Fábio says:
September 23, 2015 at 7:10 am
He said that Rutherford was anointed and understood the signal. Is this some kind of joke?
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 23, 2015 at 7:59 am
@CEDARs(Lloyd ) & EVERY JW & Ex-JW out there!
David SPLANE has made a BIG BIG MISTAKE in using JOSEPH at Exodus 1v.6 as a GENERATION!
Because the’ INSIGHT’ BOOK says Jacob didn’t have his FIRST SON until he was 77 years old & He had ALL his SONS within 30 years as Jacob had sons by LEAH,BILHAH,ZILPAH & RACHEL.
SO SPLANEY .. ME OLD MATE…. A GENERATION is STILL DEFINED as Roughly 30 to 40 YEARS!
JOSEPHs GENERATION of BROTHERs Born within 30 Years of each other so ALL DIED within Roughly 30 To 40 Years of Each other …., NOT GENERATIONS OVERLAPPING!!!!! SO JESUS DEFINITION still is Right about 37 years from 33 C.E till 70 C.E when Jerusalem was destroyed NOT OVER 101 years since 1914 & STILL COUNTING!!
UTTER TRASH from the 7 PYGMIES of the GB
Reply
ScotWm says:
September 23, 2015 at 9:33 am
RE: “SO JESUS DEFINITION still is Right about 37 years …”
Over the last 40 years, Watchtower teachings have stretched the length of the original 1914 generation to the breaking point. The overlapping generations myth is a feeble attempt to retain a false date, around which many other Watchtower doctrines revolve.
If you listen to David Splane’s explanation, you will notice that the term “overlapping’ is no longer used. The latter-day anointed second generation is now referred to as being “contemporaries” of the first generation.
The generations still overlap, but the terminology has changed. In Joseph’s case, the Watchtower leaders would have us believe that Joseph’s brothers were contemporaries of Joseph’s father for a generation that spanned over 120 years.
So, the question is, are we going put our trust in the words of seven lying Governing Body members or the words that Jesus spoke?
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 24, 2015 at 12:36 am
Too RIGHT ScotWm !! I trust Jesus Every Time over the GB.
Reply
ScotWm says:
September 23, 2015 at 9:11 am
RE: David Splane’s claim that Rutherford, Franz and other “anointed” Watchtower leaders recognized that the Lord had returned invisibly in 1914:
“The Scriptures show that the second presence was due in 1874… This proof shows that the Lord has been present since 1874″ (The WATCH TOWER, March 1, 1923, p. 67).
“Surely there is not the slightest room for doubt in the mind of a truly consecrated child of God that the Lord Jesus is present and has been since 1874″ (The WATCH TOWER, January 1, 1924, p. 5).
“To understand the events concerning the Lord’s second presence from 1874 to 1914 requires one to be spiritually minded…” (Creation, 1927 p. 312).
Obviously, Splane has been caught telling a BIG lie.
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 23, 2015 at 9:52 am
@Scot WM . EXCELLENT,EXCELLENT & EXCELLENT REASONING & TOP CLASS RESEARCH!! UNLIKE the 7 PYGMIES of BROOKLYN!!!
Reply
J.B. Reezner says:
September 23, 2015 at 10:16 am
Great job, PB and ScotWm! My simple mind will have to just stick with “because it’s clearly insane”, as the principal reason why Splane’s explanation doesn’t work, but I appreciate (seriously) the research you folks have put into the subject.
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 23, 2015 at 10:32 am
@J.B. Thanks for comments!!
Pickled brain says:
September 24, 2015 at 12:41 am
RIGHT AGAIN ScotWm ! Rutherford wrote Creation Book in 1927 …, 13 LONG YEARS after 1914 & Rutherford was still saying the SECOND PRESENCE of Christ was 1874 until the 1930s .. So David SPLANE is a BIG LIAR to say these ones Knew what was happening in 1914!! UTTERLY MISLEADING & a PACK of LIES!!
Reply
Ted says:
September 23, 2015 at 11:31 am
Pickled Brain,
I looked up your comment on Splane’s use of Ex, 1:6. You first of all say.
“Splane has made a big mistake in using Joseph at Exodus 1v6 as a
GENERATION”
You then you correctly explain how Joseph and his brothers were all
born within a 30 year period, and are in fact a single GENERATION.
Splane’s big mistake was using Ex.1-6, to explain an OVERLAPPING
Generation. ( Maybe that’s what you intended to say.)
In my view, Splane was reading material devised by someone else,
It was totally unconvincing and a thoroughly weak attempt to
explain the unexplainable. Only the gullible and those desperate to
believe will swallow it.
Reply
anonymous says:
September 23, 2015 at 11:53 am
@Ted, I also think the Splane was trying to explain something he didn’t understand himself and probably was just reading something that was written for him. It is hard to explain algebra if you don’t understand it yourself.
I hear those men say a lot of times “the Watchtower said this and the Watchtower said that” as if that is the authority. They seem to think that as long as it is in the Watchtower, then it’s Biblical and as good con artists go, they con the majority of trusting Witnesses in the field and as all good nut jobs go, they also con themselves.
As long as Witnesses are convinced they aren’t to do any “critical” thinking, they won’t bother their heads and think about it and think that they just aren’t as smart as the Governing Body who figured it out and go on with their life, not realizing they are being “conned”. They are lazy in their thinking but that is how they have been conditioned to think.
The latest “con” from the Society is Anthony Morris’ morning worship talk about obedience. He chuckles under his breath when he tries and explain why the New World Translation uses the word decrees instead of dogma (bad meaning) at Acts 6:1-4. Also, he says “apostates” would like to think that the Watchtower is dogmatic but they would be wrong and then goes on to tell about how the rank and file are to be obedient to the Society even if they don’t understand something. It is simply amazing.
I wonder how they know what “apostates” are saying about the Society being dogmatic? Are they watching “apostate” web sites????? Are they worried about what “apostate” web sites are doing to them in an underground movement???
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 23, 2015 at 3:18 pm
@Ted Exactly a VERY WEAK ATTEMPT!! But as discussed previously Why Didn’t SPLANE go to MATTHEW 1v17 which explains ‘GENERATION ‘ perfect as being the Lifespan of a person which on average from ABRAHAM (born 2018 B.C.E)to Jesus(2 B.C.E)is 42 Generations and 2016 years which is Aproximately 48 years when divided for EACH GENERATION !! This SEEMS More LOGICAL as Jesus Mentioned ‘THIS GENERATION ‘ in the SAME BIBLE at Matthew 24v. 34 !!!
SILLY ME to THINK the GB would Use Logic!!
Reply
Peter Jeuck says:
September 23, 2015 at 12:17 pm
At some point in time you’d think people would become weary and skeptical of Watchtower’s cries of “wolf” and increasingly convoluted rationalizations regarding the arrival of the end. I always envision Watchtower’s portrayal of the rapture like the Jonah Hill Seth Rogen, James Franco parody/comedy, “This Is The End.” It’s just that rediculous. But Watchtower is serious. I saw the historical JW.org video “The Kingdom, One Hundred Years and Counting.” The vid opens up with a creepy reenactment of Russell’s Oct. 1914 proclomation to the Bethel Family that the Gentile Times Have Ended. The actor they used to play Russell made Russell look like some creepy skeevy cult leader with this insidious gleeful smirk on his face when all his adherents were joyfully applauding his pronouncement. I don’t know, the clip gave me the creeps. But it was amazing how the video depicted the individuals. Bible Students still sing that hymn used in the clip…a re-versed version of the Battle Hymn of the Republic. We had original Wacthtower hymnals, Hymns of Millenial Dawn, in our home and congregation when I was growing up. Also they showed the Cross and Crown pins, rings, jewelry … My grandparents still had their originals. When I baptized in1978 when I was 23 , my mother gave me a gold Cross and Crown pin. At the Dawn Home , the was a large painting of CT Russell hanging over the fireplace . The video really did get the whole Bible Student thing pretty well correct! But it was still creepy, and even more unsettling for me to think I once actually believed a all that stuff. Today the movement is fading away. It’s getting noticeably smaller and smaller each year. I sneaked into the online broadcast of the Bible Students General Convention last July and what I noticed right off was how few attendees there were by the end of the week. When I attended in the 1980s peak attendance was close to 1000 and by the end of the week there were still several hundred present at the convention. This past July there were more attending online than were actually there physically. It looked like fewer than one hundred by Thursday evening. So it seems to me that the Bible Students will die out as a movement in not so many decades. Hopefully the same thing is in for Jehovah’s Witnesses. You can only cry wolf so many times before people catch on. It is even possible that the exodus could be precipitous. Think of all those disappointed Millerites in 1843! That failure resulted in many thousands dropping their faith and support of Miller literally overnight. Yes some still hung on which eventually led to Russell . But some day it has to happen to Watchtower. They simply just can’t go on forever with failed predications and claims. You’d think!
Reply
ruthlee says:
September 24, 2015 at 1:46 am
hi such great commonts especially the scriptual refs and old wt pub refs i have another explanation for those of us who struggle with the generation piffle.Time and Truth is like knicker elastic. You can bend it stretch it twist it turn it and even make a Mobius strip out of it, but just like all of us ladies know it will ping back. The point being, you cannot stretch something so far out of shape to make it fit without compromising the original purpose.Like the Mobius any twist will bring you back to where you started.The powers that be, have stretched their bonkers ideas all out of shape. They have expanded their empire beyond recognition . So tight pants tone get some extra elastic to accomodate these glaringly obvious ill fitting ideas.Corset yourselves in if you want to not be caught with the collective trousers down!
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← David Splane explains the overlapping generation teaching (without actually explaining it)
The silent majority speaks: Results of the 2014 Global Survey now available →
12 things we learned from Geoffrey Jackson’s testimony at the Royal Commission
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Posted on September 14, 2015
Geoffrey Jackson's appearance before the Royal Commission left many questions unanswered
Geoffrey Jackson’s appearance before the Royal Commission left many questions unanswered
If you are one of the many current and former Jehovah’s Witnesses who spent much of last month glued to your screen watching the Australian Royal Commission into child abuse, likely you are still dumbfounded by the testimony of one person in particular: Governing Body member Geoffrey Jackson.
Senior Watchtower officials did their very best to stop Jackson from appearing, dismissing his relevance to the commission and insinuating that he was only involved in “translation.” Their efforts at insulating their leader drew the ire of Senior Council Angus Stewart, who accused Australian branch coordinator Terrence O’Brien of deliberately trying to mislead the commission over Jackson’s role.
Finally the commission saw through the shenanigans and Jackson was faced with an official summons to appear – a summons carrying legal ramifications if he failed to show. In the end, despite being in Australia (to tend to his sick father), Jackson opted to give his appearance by video link – to the disappointment of many who would have like to have seen him appear in person.
Wearing a dark three-piece suit and stripey tie, and seated at a table in what appeared to be an office conference room, Jackson had an air of confidence about him. He addressed the judge and senior council respectfully, but any humility seemed strained – especially in the context of some of the more defiant and pious expressions that were to follow.
Overall, Jackson’s testimony was a masterclass in evading the torrent of difficult questions unleashed upon him. Angus Stewart and Judge McClellan bombarded him with topics as diverse as corporal punishment, the two witness rule, the role of women, and shunning.
Jackson ducked and swerved any difficult, potentially incriminating questions with the finesse of an Aussie-rules footballer, albeit without possessing the corresponding physique. “That’s not my field” became his default retort, and if he didn’t like the question he wasn’t above modifying it in his answer. Even outright lies were deployed by the Governing Body member in his eagerness to get past the full-time whistle unscathed.
It’s difficult to do justice to the full day-long exchange, but I have taken the liberty of compiling a handy list of 12 key pieces of testimony given by Jackson that were either unusual, revealing, or downright misleading.
If you would like to examine Geoffrey Jackson’s testimony for yourself, you can do so in PDF form on this link, or using the video playlist at the foot of this article.
1. Ordinary Jehovah’s Witnesses can now officially acknowledge the problem of child abuse (at least in theory)
01 Jackson
As recently as February, Jackson’s co-Governing Body member Stephen Lett dismissed criticism of the organization’s child abuse record as “apostate-driven lies and dishonesties.” The morning worship video in which these comments were made was responded to by yours truly in the following YouTube video (skip to 03:10 to see Lett’s comments)…
As I commented at the time, rather than being “lies and dishonesties” the criticism of Watchtower’s child abuse mishandling was fully warranted, not least by the multi-million dollar judgments in both the Candace Conti and Jose Lopez verdicts of 2012 and 2014 respectively.
Still more recently, another Governing Body member, Tony Morris, indulged in an extraordinary rant on the issue of child abuse in the July 2015 JW Broadcasting episode. Not only did Morris attempt to scapegoat gay people as culpable for child molestation – he also claimed that the organization was proud of its reputation regarding child abuse and were even ahead of the game in that issue compared to the “somewhat naive” secular authorities.
Little over a month later, and under serious questioning by the senior council of a Royal Commission, Morris’ colleague Geoffrey Jackson sang an entirely different tune (bold is mine)…
Stewart: Do you recognise, Mr Jackson ‐ and in asking this question, let me make it clear, I’m not suggesting it is peculiar to the Jehovah’s Witness organisation, there are many, many organisations in this position ‐ but do you accept that the Jehovah’s Witness organisation has a problem with child abuse amongst its members?
Jackson: I accept that child abuse is a problem right throughout the community and it’s something that we’ve had to deal with as well.
Stewart: Do you accept that the manner in which your organisation has dealt with allegations of child sexual abuse has also presented problems?
Jackson: There have been changes in policies over the last 20 or 30 years, where we’ve tried to address some of those problem areas, and by the fact that they have changed the policy would indicate that the original policies weren’t perfect.
Stewart: And you accept, of course, that your organisation, including people in positions of responsibility, like elders, is not immune from the problem of child sexual abuse?
Jackson: That appears to be the case.
So there you have it. Jehovah’s Witnesses can now officially speak openly about their religion having a problem with child sexual abuse because, according to a member of the Governing Body, “that appears to be the case.”
Of course, whether there would be judicial ramifications anyway for speaking openly about child abuse in such an Orwellian organization is another matter entirely. Don’t expect “but Geoffrey Jackson said it’s true” to be a bullet-proof defense if you find yourself bundled into a backroom by the elders for mentioning the child abuse problem in a comment at the kingdom hall.
Stewart then went on to ask Jackson a line of questions that seemed expressly designed to counter the preposterous “apostate-driven lies and dishonesties” claim by Stephen Lett…
Stewart: Do you accept, Mr Jackson, that many of the efforts that are being made by different people and organisations to highlight the issue of child sexual abuse and try and find solutions are genuine efforts to improve the situation?
Jackson: I do accept that, and that’s why I’m happy to testify.
Stewart: And that such efforts are not necessarily an attack on your organisation or its system of beliefs?
Jackson: We understand that, too.
Stewart: You described earlier in your testimony that the work of this Royal Commission is beneficial. Do you accept, then, that the Royal Commission’s efforts are genuine and well‐intentioned?
Jackson: I certainly do. And that’s why we came in to the Royal Commission hoping that collectively something would come forward that would help us as well as everybody else.
Stewart: Would you disagree, then, with anyone who said that the efforts to highlight and deal with child sexual abuse in the Jehovah’s Witness church are engaging in apostate lies?
Jackson: I guess that’s a broad question, because sometimes those who make these accusations make many other accusations as well. But let me assure you, the person making the accusation is not the main thing. The main thing is: is there some basis to the accusation. And if there is some way that we could improve, the Governing Body is always interested in seeing how we can refine our policies. You see, Mr Stewart, could I just emphasise, as a religion, two very strong things we feel. One is, we try to keep a high moral standard. Secondly, there is love among the organisation. So we want to treat victims in a loving way.
That last response from Jackson was a typical example of his evasive tactics whenever an awkward question was put to him. Stewart’s question about apostate lies was direct and relevant, and answerable with a simple “yes” or “no.” But, knowing full well a “yes” OR “no” would be incriminating in different ways, Jackson dismissed the question itself as “broad” and spewed bluster about “many other accusations” leveled by apostates that clearly had nothing to do with the question.
Stewart wasn’t asking for Jackson to comment on his general observations about apostates, he was asking whether he believed scrutiny of child abuse within the organization by itself was tantamount to apostasy. As regards THAT specific question, no real answer was forthcoming. Jackson merely self-congratulated the Governing Body for its eagerness to refine its policies, uphold a “high moral standard,” and “treat victims in a loving way.”
Such fobbing off of an important question with pure bluster may get a politician through an awkward interview with a journalist, but Jackson was giving testimony on behalf of the Governing Body before a Judge at a Royal Commission. His sloppy tap dancing around difficult questions in such a serious forum will not have gone unnoticed, as I will highlight again later.
2. Jehovah’s Witnesses AREN’T allowed to spank their kids
02 Jackson
Like many who were raised as Witnesses I was spanked by my parents (using a belt, as I recall), and this spanking was ALWAYS justified on religious grounds using the bible and Watchtower publications.
So you can imagine my astonishment (no doubt shared by many current and former Witnesses) when Jackson repeatedly denied that Witnesses endorse corporal punishment. (Corporal punishment is defined by one dictionary as a “punishment administered by an adult (as a parent or a teacher) to the body of a child ranging in severity from a slap to a spanking.”)
The following are quotes from Watchtower publications that are at least permissive of corporal punishment, if not openly endorsing it (bold is mine)…
“Of course, children are children, and some are prone to be contrary, even wayward. (Genesis 8:21) What can parents do? ‘Foolishness is tied up with the heart of a boy; the rod of discipline is what will remove it far from him,’ says the Bible. (Proverbs 22:15) Some view this as harsh treatment that is out-of-date. Actually, the Bible is against violence and abuse of any sort. The ‘rod,’ though at times literal, represents parental authority that is administered firmly but lovingly and appropriately out of concern for the children’s eternal welfare.—Hebrews 12:7-11.” – w06 4/1 pp. 9-10
“Different children require different kinds of discipline. Some are not ‘corrected by mere words.’ For them, the occasional punishment administered for disobedience may be lifesaving. (Proverbs 17:10; 23:13, 14; 29:19) A child, though, should understand why he is being punished. ‘The rod and reproof are what give wisdom.’ (Proverbs 29:15; Job 6:24) Moreover, punishment has boundaries. ‘I shall have to chastise you to the proper degree,’ said Jehovah to his people. (Jeremiah 46:28b) The Bible in no way endorses angry whippings or severe beatings, which bruise and even injure a child.—Proverbs 16:32.” – “Family Happiness” book (1996), page 60
Certainly it must be acknowledged that some of the sentiments in more recent publications to the effect that “not all children need physical punishment” (w06 11/1 p.5) might be construed as a U-turn from past instructions on the matter, at least in part. A footnote to the 2002 Draw Close to Jehovah book even says: “Similarly, ‘the rod’ of parental authority suggests loving guidance, not harsh or brutal punishment.” (p.101)
But a specific, unequivocal condemnation of corporal punishment as archaic, outdated and abusive by Watchtower has yet to appear in print. A full printed retraction on the matter would be appropriate, especially given past guidance such as the following…
“There are times, of course, when every child needs discipline, even with the literal rod, but this should be done—and not overdone—firmly and in love, without displaying the heat of anger. Children will come to appreciate deserved chastisement, and it will not ‘exasperate’ them. They will appreciate, too, the kindness and loving care that they receive at other times.” – “Good News to Make You Happy” (1976), p166
3. The Governing Body MIGHT not be Jehovah’s only spokespersons
hotline-god
Especially since they declared themselves to be the faithful slave in 2012, the Governing Body CLEARLY believe themselves to be God’s sole spokespersons or “channel,” as stated explicitly in published statements like the following (bold is mine)…
“Even as Bible prophecy pointed forward to the Messiah, it also directs us to the close-knit body of anointed Christian Witnesses that now serve as the faithful and discreet slave. It helps us to understand the Word of God. All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the ‘greatly diversified wisdom of God’ can become known only through Jehovah’s channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave.—John 6:68.” – w94 10/1 p.8
And yet, when confronted with Angus Stewart’s blunt question “Do you see yourselves as Jehovah God’s spokespeople on earth?” the answer that came from Jackson’s lips was astounding.
“That I think would seem to be quite presumptuous to say that we are the only spokesperson that God is using. The scriptures clearly show that someone can act in harmony with God’s spirit in giving comfort and help in the congregations, but if I could just clarify a little, going back to Matthew 24, clearly, Jesus said that in the last days ‐ and Jehovah’s Witnesses believe these are the last days ‐ there would be a slave, a group of persons who would have responsibility to care for the spiritual food. So in
that respect, we view ourselves as trying to fulfill that role.”
Jackson thus answered the question by changing it, and not for the first time during his testimony. The question was NOT “do you think you are the only ones being used by God’s spirit?” The question deliberately highlighted the role of God’s “spokesperson,” or channel of communication. It had nothing to do with, say, an ordinary publisher offering comfort and help in the congregation.
Jackson’s answer was, therefore, another attempt at ducking a question where an honest answer would have made him look foolish and deluded.
4. A ‘worldly’ lawyer can beat a Governing Body member in a scripture duel
03 Jackson
One of the most delightful and unexpected exchanges between Angus Stewart and Geoffrey Jackson arose from the former’s attempts to persuade the latter that there IS a scriptural basis for discarding the two witness rule as it relates to child sex abuse. The fascinating conversation is captured in the video below…
Simply put, Stewart correctly argued that child sex abuse amounts to rape, and because according to Deuteronomy 22:23-27 a rape victim who is attacked without witnesses in a field is to STILL see her attacker brought to justice (despite apparently being the only witness to the attack), therefore the same precedent could be applied to child sex abuse.
After considerable bluster about “circumstances,” again apparently aimed at obscuring the question, Jackson conceded that one witness was sufficient for a rapist to be stoned to death.
With predatory precision, Stewart then moved in for the kill.
“Is it not the case that had Jesus been asked about a case of sexual abuse, he may have referred back to this part of Deuteronomy and said that it’s not required to have two witnesses?”
Jackson could only reply: “I certainly would like to ask Jesus that, and I can’t at the moment, I hope to in the future. But that’s a hypothetical question which, if we had an answer, then we could support what you said.”
Subsequent to this exchange, Jackson submitted a written testimony to the commission effectively backtracking on everything he’d conceded on this point. Apparently Jackson no longer wants to ask Jesus about the question in the future, because “new light” has furnished him with the answer in record time.
According to Jackson’s written explanation, the two witness rule overrides the rape provision in Deuteronomy. And in any case, the rapist described would have already had his guilt established without the woman’s testimony. Essentially, Jackson trusts that the rapist would have given a full confession to elders of raping the woman in the field, despite facing the penalty of death by stoning for doing so.
Dubious and desperate reasoning aside, history will show that Angus Stewart gifted a Governing Body member with an opportunity to biblically justify scrapping the shameful two witness rule in relation to child abuse. And instead of seizing this gilt-edged opportunity to protect children, for reasons best known to him, Jackson bent over backwards to reject it.
5. A Governing Body member fails to deny that shunning is cruel
shunning2
A long and rather arduous exchange ensued from Angus Stewart’s brave attempts to pin Geoffrey Jackson down on the issue of shunning. As I have previously pointed out, you would think if shunning is a divine command from Jehovah himself Watchtower representatives, including Governing Body members, would leap at any chance to declare their glowing pride at the policy. Instead they do their level best to misrepresent it, or deny it altogether.
Jackson pursued just such an approach, this time by again attempting to cloud the issue. Fortunately, Stewart had done his homework on the matter and refused to be sidetracked. “I have chosen my words deliberately, Mr Jackson,” said Stewart with an air of exasperation at one such attempt to switch the subject of the question from disassociated ones to inactive ones.
Finally, after a lengthy exchange involving various hypothetical scenarios, Jackson had given Stewart enough rope to hang him with.
Stewart: Mr Jackson, you have put it that they have a choice to leave or not to leave. For someone who wants to leave, perhaps because they have suffered abuse by someone in the organisation and don’t feel that it has been treated properly or adequately, it’s a very difficult choice, isn’t it, because they must choose ‐‐
Jackson: I agree, yes.
Stewart: And it can be a very cruel choice for them ‐ not so?
Jackson: I agree, it’s a difficult choice.
And so, at the end of a marathon series of questioning, finally an end product of sorts: a Governing Body member failing to deny that the “difficult choice” facing those who wish to leave the organization is a cruel one.
6. Having a Christmas tree won’t necessarily get you disfellowshipped
christmas
In the labyrinth of questions aimed at highlighting the shunning policy, Angus Stewart asked Geoffrey Jackson the following…
So, for example, if they [a Jehovah’s Witness] had become inactive or sought to fade without formally disassociating, and the elders came to visit and found them celebrating Christmas or a birthday, they would be found to be in transgression of the rules, would they not?
Jackson’s answer was remarkable…
That is not my understanding. But again, as I said, it is not my field, that goes into policy with regard to those type of things, but from my personal experience, that’s not the case.
Anybody who knows anything about the Witness faith knows that celebrating Christmas or birthdays is expressly prohibited for Witnesses – a “transgression of the rules” as Stewart carefully phrased it. In fact “celebrating false religious holidays” is clearly listed as a form of apostasy in the Shepherd book and deemed judicially actionable by elders.
As with his earlier obfuscation about corporal punishment, Jackson’s ability to contort the truth so readily rather than take pride in teachings and practices that are supposed to be mandated by God will have been a huge wake-up call for any sincere Witnesses who dared to watch.
7. The Governing Body chooses the Governing Body (not Jesus)
gb-meeting
Hopefully it is rather obvious that the Governing Body chooses itself, or is self-appointed. But according to Watchtower literature the Governing Body is “not appointed by any man. It is appointed by the same one who appointed the twelve apostles in the first century C.E., namely, Jesus Christ the Head of the true Christian congregation and the Lord and Master of the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ class.” (w71 12/15 p.758)
Interestingly, however, nowhere in his testimony did Geoffrey Jackson even try to claim that Jesus appoints the Governing Body members.
Early on in the questioning, Angus Stewart asked: “And is it the case that the Governing Body then appoints new members of the Governing Body?” This would have been the perfect opportunity for Jackson to give a rambling theological lecture to the effect that Jesus is actually the one who does the appointing.
Instead we got a straightforward: “That is correct.”
Thinking Witnesses would do well to ask themselves: If the Governing Body is self-appointed, how does it differ in any meaningful sense from the leaders of other religions? From where does the Governing Body receive its mandate to lead ‘God’s organization’ if the appointments are openly and unashamedly made by men?
8. The Governing Body are “guardians of doctrine”
guardians
Watchtower literature has always taught that the role of the faithful and discreet slave is to provide God’s people with spiritual food “at the proper time.” In 2012 the Governing Body exclusively assumed this responsibility from Matthew 24:45 – verses that many regard as a parable rather than a prophecy.
But repeatedly in his testimony Jackson made a claim that will have sounded strange to the ears of many familiar with Witness teachings, namely that the Governing Body are to be considered the “custodians,” or “guardians,” of doctrine…
◾“So the goal of the Governing Body as custodians of our doctrine is to publish literature that helps people in everyday life using what the Bible says.”
◾“But the qualifications of a member for the Governing Body ‐ it involves someone who is considered an anointed Witness, who has worked in scriptural, with a scriptural background, either as a missionary or a full‐time servant for many years, and is able to fulfil the role of the Governing Body, which is, may I state, a group, a spiritual group of men who are the guardians of our doctrine, and as guardians of the doctrine, look at things that need to be decided based on our doctrines, which are based on the constitution of the Bible.”
◾“What we view ourselves, as fellow workers with our brothers and sisters ‐ we have been given a responsibility to guard or to be guardians of doctrine.”
◾“Ultimately, as guardians of our doctrine and beliefs, yes, some central group needs to make that decision, but that doesn’t mean to say that we are just on our own unilaterally making those decisions without research and input from others.”
It is one thing to print spiritual material based on your interpretation of what is written in the bible, but why this sudden fixation with guarding doctrine? If God has passed down his requirements to humanity in clear and unambiguous form, why do these need to be guarded by a group of men? Couldn’t any group of religious leaders assume such a role for themselves? Why this sudden fixation with protecting established doctrine rather than focusing on principles of love, mercy and grace?
Hopefully I am not the only one who found Jackson’s repeated expressions along these lines rather grating and cultish.
9. The Governing Body doesn’t care about the feelings of child abuse victims
victim2
Justice McClellan entered the fray on a number of occasions during Jackson’s testimony with the seeming intent of getting Jackson to reason on a human level. A good example of this was during a line of questioning about the feelings of female sex abuse victims who are made to give evidence to a committee comprised solely of men.
“Can you understand how a woman might feel when allegations which she brings forward against a man in the congregation are considered and judged entirely by men?” asked McClellan.
Jackson’s response was astonishing.
“Obviously I’m not a woman, so I wouldn’t like to speak on their behalf, but the two of us, I am sure, could understand from what has been expressed and believe that perhaps there would be a hesitancy there.”
And so Jackson washed his hands of the need to empathize with the feelings of women by virtue of the fact that he is not a woman. Only “perhaps” might women be hesitant to bring sex abuse allegations against a man before an all-male tribunal.
Another clue that Jackson is less than preoccupied with concern for the welfare of sex abuse victims can be found in his ignorance of the earlier testimony of BCG.
When asked by BCG’s lawyer whether he’d read her client’s evidence, Jackson replied: “I haven’t, I’m sorry. The reason I came here [to Australia] was to care for my ailing father, and that has taken a lot of my time. Plus, I wasn’t aware of the fact that I would be called before the Commission.”
At first glance this may sound like a reasonable excuse, but a disparity soon emerges when you consider the multiple occasions on which Jackson referred to the previous testimony of his own Watchtower representatives – something he somehow HAD found the time to brush up on despite caring for his father (bold is mine)…
◾“But if I could mention, some of the reports that you have considered are from 25 years ago, and if I understand correctly, from what little I heard of the Commission in the last few days, Mr Spinks very accurately described that there has been more of an awareness of Jehovah’s Witnesses to make sure that any victim who has been a victim of a horrible crime is not required to actually go before three men.”
◾“If I understand your question correctly, from what I have heard from Mr Spinks’ testimony, that is not something that we require now.”
◾“Thank you for the opportunity to explain this. I think very clearly Mr Toole pointed out that if the Australian Government, in all the States, was to make mandatory reporting, it would make it so much easier for us.”
◾“Could I explain, Mr Stewart, that ‐ you see, I think already under testimony some of Jehovah’s Witnesses have explained that the two‐witnesses needed can be, in some cases, the circumstances.”
Therefore, Jackson HAD taken time out to research previous evidence in the commission. He was just very selective about whose evidence he listened to, and seemingly had a preference for brushing up on what Watchtower representatives had to say rather than child abuse victims.
Another telling moment came when BCG’s clearly-exasperated lawyer expressed her dismay at Monica Applewhite’s evidence as paid for by Watchtower, which seems to have been roundly dismissed as one-sided and non-credible by the Commission.
“It is really disheartening for the survivors that evidence from people such as Dr Applewhite, without any reference whatsoever to the victims ‘experience, suggests to them that the reason for engaging experts is… more to do with the reputation of the Jehovah’s Witnesses than any real attempt to get to a deep understanding of their experience.”
In response to what was, again, more of an appeal to his humanity, Jackson replied…
“I certainly hope that is not the case, and that certainly was not the intent of it. So please, be assured that we are interested in the individuals such as the client that you are representing. And may I take this opportunity, I don’t know your client, but please, could you convey an expression of my love and concern and reassure her that obviously she has had an opportunity to speak about how she feels, and hopefully this will help the policies and procedures to improve.”
So, not only had Jackson failed to find time to research the testimony of victims of child abuse within his organization, despite somehow finding time to listen to the testimony of Watchtower representatives Rodney Spinks and Vincent Toole. Jackson had also thrown away an opportunity to show compassion by admitting that the deployment of “expert for hire” Monica Applewhite was in poor taste from the point of view of the victims. And to add insult to injury, he was now issuing instructions to BCG’s lawyer to act as a go-between with her client.
My response, had I been on the receiving end of this request, would have been: “I take instructions from BCG – not you, Mr Jackson. I’m sure if you really care about BCG and her situation, you will find the time and means to convey that message to her yourself in person.”
10. Lots of things are not Geoffrey Jackson’s “field”
09 Jackson
As you’ve probably gathered by now, Jackson used every trick in the book during his testimony to dodge or evade questions where an honest answer would land him in hot water.
Here are a few examples of Jackson repeating the line that a certain subject was “not his field,” or trying to buy time before answering a question…
◾“I would have to check on that, because personally that’s not my field.”
◾“I preface this in the fact that it is not my field that I work with every day…”
◾“Seeing it is not my field per se, I couldn’t give an inclusive answer with regard to that…”
◾“Sorry, you would need to walk me through that a little further. I’m not quite sure.”
◾“I preface this in the fact that it is not my field that I work with every day…”
◾“I am not familiar with the statistics or the general practice…”
◾“That’s a very large question and I think it’s something that we would need to consider carefully.”
◾“That is a possibility, but in all fairness to your question, I think there are circumstances, but I couldn’t make a definitive comment on that.”
◾“You know, your Honour, this is not my field.”
◾“I can’t say that I would give a comment on that…”
On two occasions in particular, frustration over Jackson’s question-dodging antics spilled over.
The most notable of these instances was the previously-discussed exchange regarding Christmas, in which Jackson insinuated that celebrating Christmas wouldn’t necessarily result in a disfellowshipping.
“But again, as I said, it is not my field,” was his disclaimer.
“Mr Jackson,” said Angus Stewart, his frustration obvious, “you say it’s not your field, but you are a member of the Governing Body which is responsible, as you have said, for the whole field, and you have been a member for 10 years, and all the committees are responsible to and accountable to the Governing Body.”
“That is correct,” said Jackson.
“So it is your field, isn’t it?”
“Only as far as approving the basic scriptural principles. So is there a scriptural principle that you have in mind you want to ask me about, or are you talking about policies and implementation of policies? There is a difference there.”
Then, later on, it was Justice McClellan’s turn to be visibly exasperated at Jackson’s stubborn refusal to answer a straightforward question – this time regarding whether Witness women could be involved in the judiciary process even if not in the sentencing (or punishment)…
Justice McClellan: Could women be involved in the determination of whether or not the allegation is true?
Jackson: Well, your Honour, if I could say, I think they already are involved, in the sense ‐‐
Justice McClellan: Not in the decision, Mr Jackson. Please address my question.
Jackson: Okay. But yes, in ‐ well, please, could I just use an example. If an underage child says that something has happened and then two women are involved with helping that person, surely they have to decide whether or not the facts are true. They then present those to the elders. Otherwise, how would the elders know what the facts are?
Justice McClellan: Mr Jackson, you are not dealing with my question.
Jackson: I am sorry. I apologise humbly, your Honour.
Again, we are not talking about journalists or a random member of the public being overly inquisitive. We are talking about a Judge at a specially-appointed Royal Commission charged with uncovering the serious mishandling of child abuse.
Whatever Jackson may privately think of his performance, it is difficult to imagine him leaving a positive impression before the Commission. Indeed, Justice McClellan seemed to have a slight parting dig at him, saying “You are formally excused from your summons” rather than the usual, “you are excused.”
11. (Don’t laugh!) The Governing Body is good at saying sorry
sorry
Yes, apparently the Governing Body are quite accomplished when it comes to apologizing for their mistakes.
When asked by Angus Stewart whether he could foresee the Governing Body ever issuing an apology to survivors of sexual abuse at the hands of elders in the organization, this was Jackson’s response…
“The Governing Body has apologised on other matters, so for me to say ‐ I can’t speak collectively for everybody, but we have apologised on things in the past, in other areas, so it is perceivable.”
If someone could point me in the direction of where these apologies may be found, I would greatly appreciate it. To my knowledge the Governing Body has never apologized once for anything. And in rare instances where it has addressed areas of regret, it has usually found a way of apportioning the blame elsewhere – as was the case with the ‘apology’ for 1975. (w76 7/15 p.441 par.15)
12. Penguins are not found in the middle of Australia
10 Jackson
Ok, so the last one is a bit silly, but you must allow me a bit of a chuckle at Jackson’s rather random penguin comment. It seems remiss to exclude it from the list.
Early in the proceedings, when trying to establish the role and influence of the Governing Body, Angus Stewart asked Jackson whether the Governing Body takes responsibility for organizational manuals and guidelines. The odd way Jackson chose to answer the question came as a surprise.
“We do take spiritual responsibility for it, yes. May I just mention, if there is a printing mistake and we say that penguins are found in the middle of Australia, then, yes, it’s true, we take responsibility, but it’s without not within the realms of our expertise. But we would check to see who it was that had given that wrong information.”
Hopefully Jackson and his fellow dear leaders DO possess sufficient knowledge to question a printed claim that penguins live in Australia without having specific expertise in zoology. That said, given Stephen Lett’s recent claims that there is as much evidence for Christ’s kingdom as there is for “gravity, electricity, wind,” perhaps we need to lower our expectations.
And if only the Governing Body DID take prompt action whenever wrong information is printed in the publications! Mind you, they would have their work cut out fact-checking and issuing corrections for nearly 140 years of false predictions, pseudo-science, medical quackery, doctrinal flip-flops, abusive policies, misquotes, draconian rules and spurious interpretations of scripture – a daunting task if ever there was one.
Perhaps encountering a penguin in the Australian outback is more likely.
new-cedars-signature3
Further reading…
◾Australian Royal Commission hears that 1,006 alleged child sex abusers were covered up by Watchtower
◾Elders shamed under questioning by the Royal Commission
◾Reflecting on the Australian Royal Commission (Day 3, Part 1)
◾Royal Commission’s Angus Stewart accuses Watchtower representative of deliberate deception
◾JWsurvey articles on child abuse
Huge thanks go to Vincent Deporter, JWsurvey’s resident artist, for contributing artwork for this article. If you enjoy Vincent’s work, you might be interested in obtaining a copy of “Sacred Cows,” a recent picture book that takes a lighthearted look at religion.
I am in the process of working on video rebuttals to Jackson’s royal commission testimony as a five-part video series. Please subscribe to my YouTube channel for updates when these videos are uploaded.
If you still haven’t watched the footage from the Royal Commission, a playlist of videos is below…
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← David Splane explains the overlapping generation teaching (without actually explaining it)
The silent majority speaks: Results of the 2014 Global Survey now available →
309 Responses to 12 things we learned from Geoffrey Jackson’s testimony at the Royal Commission
Newer Comments →
Richard E. Kelly says:
September 14, 2015 at 4:33 pm
This could be your very best, Lloyd. Kudos to you, as I suspect you had a great time putting this story and wonderful graphics together.
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Jill says:
September 15, 2015 at 8:07 am
Agreed, Richard. Stellar work, and one of the most satisfying synopses to read. This deserves to go viral.
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Fidhealer says:
September 14, 2015 at 5:01 pm
This was well worth the wait! Thank you for all you do Lloyd!
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John Jarrett says:
September 14, 2015 at 5:06 pm
Your comment regarding the GB never having apologized for anything recalled an article I wrote on Reddit about exactly the same thing. Thought you might get a kick out of it:https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/3fjk51/counsel_regarding_apologies_thrown_back_at_the_gb/
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Liette says:
September 14, 2015 at 5:36 pm
Very well writing, thank you so much all you hard work. I really enjoyed reading it.
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Garrett says:
September 14, 2015 at 6:34 pm
Please tell me that these evil lying men have a very painful, ignominious death waiting for them very soon. I’m living for one event to happen, the fall of The Watchtower Society and a full expose on these scumbags who run it. After that, come what may, I’ll be happy to quietly crawl into my grave with a smile on my face and full vindication .
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Malachi says:
September 14, 2015 at 7:49 pm
Thanks for the masterful analysis and summary of the Royal Commissions inquiry into this.
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Susan Langlotz says:
September 14, 2015 at 8:03 pm
Thanks for the article, and the art work was great. Watching Jackson respond as such a weasely pompous ass to the questions was trying. So glad he was compelled to testify and the Commission saw through his shenanigans. Thanks again.
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Kat says:
September 14, 2015 at 8:07 pm
Excellent work Cedars, you are a gifted writer, and I am sure many JW if they read your work refer to the links if they are honest will come away wondering why a GB member would not be honest enough to defend his beliefs, but take a u turn and trash his own religion.
Taking the time to listen to WT reps, and no time to listen to or read the victims testimony has shown he has no concern for victims at all.
These men are not just delusional but are out right liars.
And great point the GB appoint themselves, hope JW caught onto to that.
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nuaille says:
September 14, 2015 at 8:24 pm
I was waiting your article impatiently for many weeks.. and what a quality post !! You’re the best… thank you to give your times and writing talents to help jw and ex-jw awakening! Cheers Cedars! :)
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ToesUp says:
September 14, 2015 at 8:53 pm
Cedars. Thank you for taking the time to put all of Jackson’s comments and highlights in one great format! Love your comments and the art work. I hope many JW’s will review this information and start to see the many flaws in this man directed organization.
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JJ says:
September 14, 2015 at 9:32 pm
Along with the others who have commented, I have been waiting patiently for your article on Geoffrey Jackson’s testimony.
It was worth it and thank you very much.
He is a greasy snake, that much is for sure. The rope is only getting tighter on these BS experts and their empire is doomed to collapse around them. If only it would hurry up…
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Mark says:
September 14, 2015 at 9:41 pm
Fantastic write up, mate.
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minion says:
September 14, 2015 at 10:05 pm
Lloyd: Good points all around.
This really shows the deluted mentality of the 7 men from WT Corp.
Jackson: “Only as far as approving the basic scriptural principles. So is there a scriptural principal that you have in mind you want to ask me about, or are you talking about poliçies and implementation of policies? There is a difference there.
minion: ” you mean like – tighten up the chains on your prisoners, I meant members” would that be correct,?
Lloyd, who has more protection and rights – a captive member of war? Or a captive member of JWs a P-O-W – prisoner-of-WT ?
Under the Geneva Conventions its seems to me it was a POW and not a prisoner-of-WT.
The 1949 Geneva Conventions
The first Geneva Convention protects wounded and sick. These provide protection for the wounded and sick, but also for medical and religious personnel.
The second Geneva Convention protects wounded, and sick.
The third Geneva Convention applies to prisoners of war.
The conditions and places of captivity were more precisely defined, particularly with regard to the labour of prisoners of war, their financial resources, the relief they receive, and the judicial proceedings instituted against them. The Convention establishes the principle that prisoners of war shall be released and repatriated without delay after the cessation of active hostilities.
The fourth Geneva Convention affords protection to civilians.
It requires humane treatment for all persons in enemy hands, without any adverse distinction. It specifically prohibits murder, mutilation, torture, cruel, humiliating and degrading treatment, the taking of hostages and unfair trial. End of quote.
I foresee an announcement sooner than later, tv.JW will not be renewed due to lack of funds, (save face).
Peace out,
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ScotWm says:
September 14, 2015 at 10:23 pm
#8. “What we view ourselves, as fellow workers with our brothers and sisters ‐ we have been given a responsibility to guard or to be guardians of doctrine.”
Guardians Of Doctrine = GOD.
We can now plainly see where the Governing Body is leading its cult members.
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Kieren says:
September 14, 2015 at 10:35 pm
Hahaa ScotWm that’s awesome- the governing body and faithful slave, soon also to be known as G.O.D. Hahahaha wouldn’t have noticed that if someone hadn’t pointed it out.
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Tara says:
September 15, 2015 at 6:55 am
Lol hahahahaha I never saw that until pointed out!
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Kieren says:
September 14, 2015 at 10:26 pm
Very well written Lloyd. You covered it nicely.
Looking forward to you video commentary also
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Honza says:
September 14, 2015 at 10:32 pm
Lloyd, very very good job!!!
I send Greetings from Czech republic!
Honza
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ScotWm says:
September 14, 2015 at 11:06 pm
Lloyd:
Thank you so much for the link to the 72 page PDF document of Geoffrey Jackson’s testimony before the Royal Commission. Being able to perform a global search of this document will prove to be invaluable.
The other PDF link to Jackson’s supplementary “new light” testimony, regarding the “two witness” rule, was a good read. Jackson has shown that Governing Body members will manipulate scripture to whatever extent necessary to match their perverted doctrine.
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Sheree Stokell says:
September 14, 2015 at 11:39 pm
Ha ha I would love to be a fly on the wall if unwitting jws knock on McClelland or Stewart’s door!
Aside from that, I believe Jackson, on some level, knows just how loony jw beliefs sound to outsiders. I used to dodge like this whey unbelieving family bombarded me with the same types of questions because although I was a true believer a part of me knew it sounded barmy. Yet I never questioned it! I suspect Jackson is even more delusional-cognisant. It’s difficult to explain how one knows and yet does not know.
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JJ says:
September 15, 2015 at 5:10 am
Yup! I would dodge like Jackson too. You just couldn’t honestly talk about what you believed or the Watchtower practices because it was so absurd. If you make JW’s actually say what they think and do, they feel stupid.
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Catalina says:
September 14, 2015 at 11:48 pm
Scotwn, Great point. Guardians Of Doctrine = GOD. I think the GB did that on purpose. Oh man they are so arrogant. It actually makes it worse if they didn’t notice Guardians Of Doctrine =GOD. They are full of themselves. They contradict their own literature. They expect JWs to stay away from these web sites and to reject the information. Pride is before a crash.
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Kaput says:
September 15, 2015 at 12:35 am
Thanks Lloyd
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D says:
September 15, 2015 at 3:43 am
Its funny because I was going to make a joke about the rumor that he even farted during the testimony! But you beat me to it. I like how your last point you acknowledge that you’re starting to parse over silliness and then go on to parse over silliness. Seriously, I lost my faith in Jehovah but I hope I never end up like you and your pedantic ideals. I have been reading your articles for some time and they don’t give me some new special faith in god but they do make me understand that apostates are mentally diseased. Generally, anyone who can only see things in their perspective tunnel vision usually miss the big picture. Your tunnel vision is spectacular and it can only help your inflated ego to have all the fellow back patters give you that unending supply of hot air that you need so direly. I might be an apostate too by definition but I’ll never waste as much energy in such a fruitless manner. For that reason alone, I will win.
And one other thing, the way you describe these men how could they not be divinely backed? I mean none of them really went to college, they have all been in the “borg” most of their lives, and they base their brainwashing off of an old book of “fairy tales”. Yet, you describe them as so menacing and devious to the point where they capriciously manipulate their blind followers to carry out their bidding. Truly, the way you describe these men, they are either masterminds or genuinely divinely backed
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Cedars says:
September 15, 2015 at 3:58 am
I don’t think the Governing Body are deliberately devious and cynical, I believe they are purely deluded, and that their delusion feeds into their egotism. I have even made a video stating that observation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzL5bbM-Xbc
Thanks for your other comments, which tell me you have one foot still in your indoctrination. Either Jehovah’s Witnesses are true or they are not. If they are not true, then the leadership needs to be exposed because it is ruining lives and even killing people. Partially awakened anti-activists like you who evangelize their cowardly passivity are what helps keep the status quo as it is.
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John Baptist says:
September 15, 2015 at 6:07 am
I absolutely saw no bitterness in your reply back but perhaps a even clearer understanding of the Actual facts. Well said.
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Idontknowhatodo says:
September 15, 2015 at 7:53 am
Well said Lloyd… I wonder why people like D go on this site…I do because I need it…I am coming to life after a lifetime of lies…57 years of it…and I do not have the strength to lose my entire family and all my friends which is what would happen if I walked away..including my spouse…that is why I come on this site…to be told the truth…not just by you…whom I find to be modest and self deprecating by the way…but by people exactly in the same situation as me though in different stages of awakening…I dont appreciate the insulting tone and abusive choice of language used towards you by D… we have all had enough of that from the men at the fifferent levels of authority in this heirarchy.
Oh…and I had regular and painful smacks throughout my childhood…mostly from misbehaving at the meetings…my parents always seemed to sjow me Jehovah was displeased with me by giving me a good smacking across the legs…its amazing to find out that the GB dont agree with that.
Keep going Lloyd you and your team are amazing.
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ScotWm says:
September 15, 2015 at 10:00 am
Cedars says: “I don’t think the Governing Body are deliberately devious and cynical, I believe they are purely deluded, and that their delusion feeds into their egotism.”
For the time being, I have not formed definite opinions about the majority of the Governing Body members who’s thinking processes appear to be delusional.
However, I feel confident that Anthony Morris III has lost his grip on reality. Persons with Alzheimer’s disease exhibit symptoms of dementia which are similar to those demonstrated by Morris. If Morris is suffering from Alzheimer’s disease, he might believe his hallucinations are divinely inspired.
The following article contains a detailed analysis of Mr. Morris’ odd behavior:
http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/after-his-branch-visit-performance-is-tight-pants-tony-now-a-liability-for-the-governing-body
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Khaleesi says:
September 15, 2015 at 2:29 pm
Luke 12:11-12 “When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say.” (NIV) I guess the holy spirit decided to tell Geoffrey Jackson “you’re on your own ‘Sorry, this is not in my field”.
Good job Lloyd excellent narration.
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ScotWm says:
September 15, 2015 at 6:37 pm
Cedars says: “I don’t think the Governing Body are deliberately devious and cynical, I believe they are purely deluded, and that their delusion feeds into their egotism.”
I feel confident that Anthony Morris III is losing his grip on reality. Perhaps Morris is suffering from dementia, in which case he might actually believe his hallucinations are divinely inspired.
The following article contains a detailed analysis of Mr. Morris’ odd behavior:
http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/after-his-branch-visit-performance-is-tight-pants-tony-now-a-liability-for-the-governing-body
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LOL says:
September 15, 2015 at 9:03 pm
But are you prepared for what you spend every waking hour denying? Because, what if, for as slight as that chance that may be, what if they happen to be right? Then woe to you sir.
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al etheredge says:
September 16, 2015 at 7:42 pm
My only response to that is the realization that I came upon when I was 13 years old. Before I examined alternative doctrines, before I was sure the witnesses were misled, and even before 1975, I came to the conclusion that I would rather die at armageddon than live in a world full of witnesses. Forty years later, should all my philosophy and beliefs prove false, I still stand by that conclusion.
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Meredith J says:
September 16, 2015 at 12:35 am
Wow these people are really still with the Watchtower. I just hope that the true god can open up their eyes and realise that honing in on the truth is not wrong but is healthy and needed for all those who have been deceived.
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Meredith J says:
September 16, 2015 at 12:37 am
I meant to put a capital “G” for “God”.
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David says:
September 15, 2015 at 4:37 am
D says: “Yet, you describe them as so menacing and devious to the point where they capriciously manipulate their blind followers to carry out their bidding.”
Probably they never went to college but they still deceive people and they do it well.
You can see clearly from their leterature and behaviour that this is the case.
They champion freedom only for themselves but destroy people lives and families if for conscientiousness reason decide to leave their religion.
They know that changing a religion is a basic human right that should not result in punishment. They do not expect that for themselves.
If I do not buy the overlapping generation interpretation, am I an apostate? If I cannot teach to others things that are not true to me, why should be ostracised by my family.
No man can be gardian of doctrine. We overself are guardians of what we believe.
Jesus said that we are all the same, only him his the master.
Clearly there are no words to descrive their behaviour, that is not even Christian.
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anonymous says:
September 15, 2015 at 6:51 am
@D, you said that apostates are mentally diseased and then you went on to say you were an apostate. Before you go on to criticize Cedars, why not examine yourself? Are you saying that just because you know that you are mentally diseased and so all “apostates” are also mentally diseased because you are? You don’t know me and you don’t know anybody else on here that are commenting and you don’t know Lloyd Evans so you are being really presumptuous to call us mentally diseased just because you are.
As far as “apostates” go, Rutherford was the one that “apostated” away from Russell’s teachings. He formed a religion around the God of the Hebrew Scriptures and I encourage you or anyone who is “proud” of worshiping that God and proud to be called one of His Witnesses, to Read Deut. chapter 31 over again and this time, actually think about what you are reading and contemplate what kind of God you are worshiping and if you should really be “proud” to be called one of His Witnesses.
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Jill says:
September 15, 2015 at 8:14 am
What will you win, exactly?
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Pickled brain says:
September 15, 2015 at 8:55 am
@ D. The GB are NOT MASTERMINDs or Divinely Backed BUT as STALIN, & CHAIRMAN MAO in China proved if people are EMOTIONALLY SUFFERING & VULNERABLE as well as Oppressed then the UN-EDUCATED MASSES with a FEW WELL EDUCATED Ones Who Like the POWER & CONTROL & HERO WORSHIP over others will Follow the MOST MANIC & LUDICROUS BELIEFS!!
LOOK at the GERMAN PEOPLE & ADOLF HITLER!!
So it is not surprising that 7 MEN Can Easily Manipulate Other Human Beings which is Very, Very SAD !!
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Robertperez67 says:
September 15, 2015 at 9:00 am
How is this article pedantic in any way? I don’t think anyone on this forum including the moderators see eye to eye on every opinion expressed. The common denominator amongst all of us is that we agree something has to be done. There are entire families and lives being destroyed on a daily basis by these cult leaders. There is unscriptural shunning, child abuse, brainwashing, twisting and abuse of Gods word (the worst of these) and Lloyd for one refuses to just go on with his life as if these crimes aren’t happening and destroying lives. I just spoke to a young person at a neighboring hall who has been censored by all the elders at his Spanish speaking congregation for speaking to other U.S born kids in engish. Speaking english in Spanish congregations is now punishable WTF.
All your comments make clear is that you’ve never been a JW and have absolutely no way to understand this meat grinder, which shuns children for being children and holds dephamers and pedo’s up on their shoulders. All through the 30’s and 40’s Rutherford had Jesus looking like an albino He-Man, because it was bellow Jesus to wear a beard. He enforced a no beard rule which is anti- biblical that is still enforced today. They will use Leviticus 19:28 to enforce no tattoo’s, per Gods law, but fail to ever quote verse 27 which forbids a man from even trimming his beard. This is an organization that nit picks at scripture as if playing with a great Lego set, in order to custom build a tax excempt publishing power house, cloacked as a genuine Christian religion. Luxury homes around the world, cars, trips, all the latest gadgets, the worship of millions, which belongs to God alone. All of which I could sit idly by as you do, were it not destroying millions of lives. It saddens me whenever anyone says they lost their faith in God because of their oppressive rule. I hope you can learn to read the Bible for yourself again someday without the WT goggles and begin to heal through prayer to God. I recommend reading -The Signature of God-by Grant R. Jeffrey or Mastery by Robert Greene and start finding peace in building a one on one relationship with your creator without all the fluff. I hope Lloyd continues this truly life saving work and finds solace in knowing that even if it is inadvertently happening, he is pointing many of us away from the WT machine and back towards God himself.
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Idontknowhatodo says:
September 15, 2015 at 2:12 pm
Brilliant…dont always agree with you…but this is brilliant!
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Ocma says:
September 15, 2015 at 4:10 pm
You say “I’ll never waste as much energy in such a fruitless manner. For that reason alone, I will win.
And one other thing” ……. Yeah, righto.
You must miss the point of all the articles.
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Nemorino says:
September 15, 2015 at 4:20 am
Congratulations and heartfelt thanks; this is a masterwork and destined to be a classic reference source for any future scholarship in the field of WT history…. Bravo Cedars!
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miken says:
September 15, 2015 at 4:45 am
With regard to your comment regarding the GB never having apologized for anything the following might possibly be construed as a rather disingenuous apology for the deception regarding 1975 published 5 years later:-
from the article entitled “Choosing the Best Way of Life” Watchtower March 15, 1980 page 16
5 In modern times such eagerness, commendable in itself, has led to attempts at setting dates for the desired liberation from the suffering and troubles that are the lot of persons throughout the earth. With the appearance of the book Life Everlasting – In the Freedom of the Sons of God, and its comments as to how appropriate it would be for the millennial reign of Christ to parallel the seventh millennium of man’s existence, considerable expectation was aroused regarding the year 1975. There were statements made then, and thereafter, stressing that this was only a possibility. Unfortunately, however, along with such cautionary information, there were other statements published that implied that such realization of hopes by that year was more of a probability than a mere possibility. It is to be regretted that these latter statements apparently overshadowed the cautionary ones and contributed to a build up of the expectation already initiated.
6 In its issue of July 15, 1976, The Watchtower, commenting on the inadvisability of setting our sights on a certain date, stated: “If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises.” In saying “anyone,” The Watchtower included all disappointed ones of Jehovah’s Witnesses, hence including persons having to do with the publication of the information that contributed to the build up of hopes centred on that date.
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pearlsB4swine says:
September 15, 2015 at 4:58 am
I found Jackson’s tone to be condescending and even impatient at times, he seemed to get a little more animated when he attempted to “witness” to the commission on several occasions but it was obvious to me that he and the other WT reps that appeared were seriously unprepared for the line of questioning.
Possibly because they underestimated the intelligence of the puny human scum – much?
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Cecil B. Delineated says:
September 15, 2015 at 5:01 am
Thank you for taking the time to put together this article. Please don’t let people like “D” deter you, your work is both interesting and worthwhile.
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pearlsB4swine says:
September 15, 2015 at 5:07 am
Did anyone else notice how GB members both, Jackson and Sanderson, bare a remarkable resemblance to Commander Strax from Dr Who.
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Stirring Awake says:
September 15, 2015 at 7:36 pm
“Surrender your women and your intellectuals!”
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pearlsB4swine says:
September 16, 2015 at 3:10 pm
@Stirring Awake -Ha ha, very funny!
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MimiLove says:
September 15, 2015 at 5:50 am
I also feel the article was very well written and I appreciate every article and video you do:) I sometimes have my doubts that the GB are delusional. Even though the current GB are shoved down our throats the past GB were just as arrogant and condescending. I met Knorr when I was 8 and believe me it isn’t a heart warming memory. Maybe there is a book on how to be a GB member!
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John Baptist says:
September 15, 2015 at 5:55 am
I watched those proceedings and Stewart and McClellan were brilliant at exposing the Watchtower for who they really are, Liers and hypocrites . Any intelligent human being could see how delusional these men are.
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roid says:
September 15, 2015 at 5:57 am
Australia does have penguins btw, just not in the interior.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fairy_penguin
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Cedars says:
September 15, 2015 at 8:57 am
Interesting! Good find! :)
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Ted says:
September 15, 2015 at 6:48 am
Great detailed work Lloyd, I was so absorbed in it my
breakfast went cold, had to warm it up in the micro.
Lots to comment on when it’s all digested.
( The fine articles I mean.)
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ruthlee says:
September 15, 2015 at 6:55 am
well what can i add thanks Lloyd superb incite what i find so amazing about all this is that it is on record for the future to reference so reguardless of faith or belief the whole picture will become clear and i hope all future jws do the research BEFOREHAND not in retrospect it will save a lot of heartache ruthlee
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Jill says:
September 15, 2015 at 7:22 am
“I certainly would like to ask Jesus that, and I can’t at the moment, I hope to in the future. But that’s a hypothetical question which, if we had an answer, then we could support what you said.”
— The GB assumes to know what Jesus meant in nearly every other utterance attributed to him, according to their divine interpretations. Jesus said it, the GB explains it at length in Q&A formats and the flock receives its direction to obey.
Yet here, a representative of the GB cannot presume to know Jesus’ intent and must therefore decline to form an opinion. While the two witness rule continues as a slick means for predators to continue harming children in congregations all over the world.
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anonymous says:
September 15, 2015 at 7:38 am
Thank you so much for such a great article and also I love Vincent Deporter’s cartoons!!!
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anonymous says:
September 15, 2015 at 9:10 am
I printed out Geoffrey Jackson’s statement that you put up for us to read and #18 on page 4, I find especially offensive to anyone with intelligence to think it was a logical comeback for insisting on the two witness rule when Jackson is trying to use Deuteronomy 23 to 27. I would hope the Australian Commission can see what a flimsy and illogical excuse it is.
Jackson is right in that those verses are only talking about whether or not the girl that got raped, will be put to death. That is he right about. If the girl had not been engaged, then all the man had to do was pay the father of the girl 50 silver shekels and he had to marry the girl and couldn’t divorce her.
Jackson is wrong when it comes to the engaged girl though. If she screamed, the man would be put to death. The Bible doesn’t say anything about whether or not she had witnesses or not or if the man had confessed or not. If the man confessed, of course, he’d be signing his own death warrant, so what man in his right mind would confess? Of course the man would not confess but Jackson said that it would have been established that the girl had screamed and so she would be left off the hook for the sin. But it was only a sin worthy of death if she had been engaged. Jackson was making up stories when he said that the man’s guilt would have been established. The Bible makes no such claims.
If the Watchtower likes to use Deuteronomy to establish the two witness rule, then what about Exodus 21:7 where men could sell their daughters as slaves and at Ex. 21:20,21 that the owner could beat his slave man or girl and if she survived a day or two, that girl was not to be avenged because the slave was the man’s “money”? Women were only considered “money” and so if she had been raped when she had been engaged to another man, then it was the man who she was engaged to, was the one that would have exacted the death warrant for the rapist. The girl didn’t matter. Only the engaged girl’s fiance’ mattered.
If the Society were to go by the Bible, then it is okay for a man to beat his wife as long as she doesn’t die and if a man was too ugly to get a wife, all he has to do is grab her in the field and rape her. If we went by the Bible in Exodus and Deuteronomy, fathers can sell their children for sex slaves because at Ex. 21:8, he girl could be sold as a concubine.
Who in their right mind, would want to use Deuteronomy to establish the two witness rule in today’s way of thinking? Only someone who doesn’t have anything else.
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Robertperez67 says:
September 15, 2015 at 10:07 am
Anonymous -you need to factor in cultural and time difference. Every culture on the planet at that time was doing similar to what the Bible states. The Bible is a book that shows the evolution of Godly men and the world they lived through. Infact outside of Christendom you can still find a good deal of those ancient practices still in full effect. You need to put the old law down, and focus on the new, where love for your God and your fellow man are foremost.
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anonymous says:
September 15, 2015 at 10:29 am
@Robertperez67, I think what you said is the point that the Commission was trying to get across to the Watchtower during this whole thing. What the Bible says in the Hebrew Scriptures don’t apply in today’s world. If it did, we’d be stoning people to death for picking up wood on the Sabbath and we’d be celebrating the Sabbath and men could pick up a wife by raping her (that is if she wasn’t engaged) by being sold by her father first as a sex slave).
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anonymous says:
September 15, 2015 at 1:58 pm
@Robertperez67, I wanted to add to my last comment in reply to your comment.
All the time I was going to meetings and I brought up how terribly women were treated in the Hebrew scriptures, I always heard the same argument that you brought up in that it was a different time etc. But if you read in Exodus starting in chapter 20 where the supposed ten commandments start, those commandments include the selling of girl children into slavery and sex slavery (concubines) and how they could be beaten and killed by their masters with no retribution as long as they survived a day or two afterwards. If you recall, even Abraham and David had concubines in addition to their legal wives. Concubines were nothing but sex slaves. If you read Exodus and about the “Law” you will read that it was given to Moses from Jehovah. So, the fact that women were treated like that and Jehovah created those laws for the Israelites, means that it was perfectly fine from Jehovah’s standpoint. Saying that it was a different time and culture, doesn’t make it okay because you could say then that women who are being treated the same today, is acceptable from God’s viewpoint. How can you explain that?
Reply
Excelsior! says:
September 16, 2015 at 5:10 am
Robertperez67,
The New Testament continues to allow slavery!
Why have you not answered anonymous’ question?
You want us all to believe in your God, and keep on being Christians, don’t you?
Anonymous has asked a pertinent question, and you have yet to answer it.
If I had enough money, I could purchase as many slaves as I wanted, and not break any laws in the New Testament could I not?
I appreciate that you have chosen to pursue a faith. I have decided that I will not follow a faith. I do not shove my atheism down anyone’s throat, and I will answer any questions asked of me on this topic.
It would be good if religious folks did the same.
I would very much like your opinion on anonymous’ question, so can we expect an answer soon?
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
anonymous says:
September 16, 2015 at 5:48 am
Excelsior, and to add to your comment that if you had enough money, you could buy as many slaves as you wanted, the converse is also true in that if you needed some money, all you had to do was to sell your children as slaves. They were sold for 30 shekels and once they were “sold” they were considered “money” for the new owner. So, if the new “owner” beat the slave, the owner wasn’t punished as long as the slave lived a day or two. That not only went for girl children sold as slaves but also boy children.
That system was nothing but barbaric and it was Jehovah who gave that law to the Israel. If people continue reading the “ten commandments”, they will see that law included. People just don’t read the whole “ten commandments” starting in Exodus chapter 20. They think it ended with the ten but it keeps going for at least 67 commandments.
Reply
Excelsior! says:
September 16, 2015 at 1:32 pm
Great point, as ever, anonymous.
I wonder if Mr Robert Perez will be able to explain this as proof of a “Loving God”?
People of Faith cannot see that their “unchangeable God” evolves and that the startling similarity to the prevailing cultures around “God’s chosen people” is never coincidence.
Thanks for sticking around with us on this excellent website. Your knowledge, experience and research are a boon to us all.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Ted says:
September 15, 2015 at 10:18 am
On the subject of discipline the org, has had plenty to say, and
using the O,Testament to do so. Yet strangely they have never
gone the full hog and recommended stoning unruly sons to death,
Deut, 21:18-21. So they do recognise that there’s a point where
a line must be drawn and reason applied.
What a cosmic difference is indicated in Jesus Parable of “The
Prodigal Son, ( there’s no need to remind anyone of the details.)
Coming on now to the 2 witness rule. Is there not room also
to let reason prevail ? The question was put to Mr, Jackson
That if Jesus was specifically asked about the application of
that rule in a case of rape. Would he not have referred to
Deut, 22, where just the testimony of the woman was enough
if she were raped in a field and no one to hear her scream?
Jackson artfully dodged answering. But as we see from the
parable. Jesus was not about rigid rules, but reasonableness
motivated by mercy and empathy. That for me answers the
question.
Reply
Robertperez67 says:
September 15, 2015 at 10:38 am
As Jackson or the rest of the GB would say (which, they do with their actions) “Who is this Jesus, that I should listen to him?”
Reply
minion says:
September 15, 2015 at 10:38 am
The 7 men of WT Corp, pick and choose bibles verses to support there policys, Not true Guardians-of-Doctrine, they should be Defenders of Faith. We know this is nothing new and most obvious to the person awaken. Take for example:
#4. A ‘worldly’ lawyer can beat a Governing Body member in a scripture duel.
Angus Stewart usued Deut.ch.22. Then came to the point, the man violated the girl. Was put to Death!
Jackson: lame answer ‘its circumstances’, excuse me. Refuse to admit JWs should be stonning all abuser’s of the 1,006 cases.
One elder said, ‘we adhere and follow the Bible to the fullest’. Then brothers and sisters, we need to be stonning abuser’s at the KH. – we adhere and follow the Bible to the fullest.
Then comes along the tv.JW for Sept. The generation – over lapping, 10 mintues to live, or 10 minutes to die, before and after, – what? I’m confused. He makes mention using ‘plural’ the generations of Joseph’s time line, but used ‘singular’ when reading vs.34 ‘this generation’ – true ‘mind control ,- the chains are tighten up,
D.Splane: used Matt. Ch.24, context verses upto vs.34. ‘We must see and understand what this means, there’s more let see.
Cherry picking verses to meet there hard core policys.
The man named Jesus, did he enforce policys, shun people, DF people, the way WT Corp does?
Peace out,
Reply
steve stone says:
September 15, 2015 at 10:50 am
well i just want to congratulate u and ur fellow apostates !
jackson did such a GREAT job of testimony that ALL apostates responsible 4 getting jackson to testify have in essence JUST SUCCEEDED in electing him as the NEXT president of the society !
by the way jackson is NOW a rockstar here at bethel 4 the way he handled the satanic legal forces hell bent on trapping and embarrassing him !
keep up the GOOD work aposties !
Reply
Cedars says:
September 15, 2015 at 10:56 am
Welcome Steve.
You definitely don’t work at bethel if you’re under the impression the office of president of the society still holds any significance. Nice try though! 😉
Reply
minion says:
September 15, 2015 at 11:00 am
We are Defenders of Truth!
And at times the truth hurts.
Welcome to The No Spin Zone.
Reply
Excelsior! says:
September 16, 2015 at 1:40 pm
Lloyd,
Didn’t you hear? The WTBTS have had a secret time travel research centre for years, and now we have proof that they have been successful!!
So Mr Stone is their first time traveller! Congratulations, Mr Stone.
He has travelled back in time to try to avert the systematic and total beating that his cult is getting daily from you and many others. His job is to stop the illustrious Russell, Rutherford, Knorr and Franz from writing the complete drivel that we so enjoy to expose today!
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
anonymous says:
September 15, 2015 at 11:11 am
@Steve stone. You are joking right?
Reply
Robertperez67 says:
September 15, 2015 at 11:35 am
Bethel has and always will be ground zero for “apostates” (People who speak against God, which were not doing). We’re speaking against the false idols of worship at WT. Remember bethelites get to see behind OZ’s curtain.
Reply
Steven Stone says:
September 15, 2015 at 10:15 pm
joking about my name or my comment
just not sure what u r addressing is all
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 15, 2015 at 3:59 pm
@Steve stone . AHhh Steve me old mate …. Jacko a rockstar at Bethel?? Well Steve you Must Check your RECORD COLLECTION as if Jesus was in the room listening !! You can’t have ROCK STARS as that is IDOLATRY!!! You NAUGHTY NAUGHTY Bethelite!!
What was that Last Comment about ‘APOSTIES’ … IS THAT A NEW BREAKFAST CEREAL?? LIKE FROSTIES???? You Go BACK to BETHEL ME OLD SAUSAGE!! I BET YOU WOULD LIKE A ‘SAUSAGE ‘?? With all those Brothers you are FRIENDLY?? With in that Enclosed Environment at Bethel!!
Reply
steve stone says:
September 15, 2015 at 4:54 pm
NEVER thought my comment in apostate wasteland would even be noticed much less commented on!
u aposties must attend to the needs of the flock much better than i thought !
lol
p.s. an apostie is just a VERY dedicated apostate for definition purposes. worldwide i personally estimate there to be ONLY 50 aposties worldwide and of course u john cedars ARE one of them !
Reply
Jake says:
September 15, 2015 at 11:11 pm
@steve stone, are you suggesting that the persons whom you describe as apostates are lairs?
Reply
steve stone says:
September 16, 2015 at 10:25 pm
NO !
actually most if not ALL that they say IS true !
Its just how they spin everyday and NORMAL occurrences and imperfections that causes a serious problem.
I read crisis of conscience a couple years after it came out and ALL other anti JW books at that time
in fact the only NEW thing that i have learned since then is the letter by Rutherford to Hitler. the thing that bugged me the most was i felt that Rutherford had cleverly conned other jws by using beth sarim as his personal vacation spot which i felt only a con man would do
and YES it DID stumble me for a few years.
IN FACT i almost went out in front of my kingdom hall and picked it ! IF i would of done that i probably would of never been able to of lived that one down. and there’s NO DOUBT in my mind that if the internet would of been available back then i would of been a RABID anti JW activist just like john cedar and other leaders of other anti JW sites
but after my wife died i talked to one of the top 5 elders in the large city that i lived and i was able to REgain my faith !
i STILL read anti jw books and websites as a non serious hobby but dont take them serious ANYMORE
YES most of the anti JW stuff presented by apostates IS true ! but since i talked to this great elder i have come to appreciate that even though Gods Modern day organization has MANY faults and these faults extend (ALL THE WAY TO THE TOP)
…………..it STILL is the Truth ! ! !
i would highly recommend that you talk to one the top elders in your city. i am sure you probably can figure out just who that person is. just stay calm and talk to him with an open mind.
best wishes
Steven
Reply
Ted says:
September 15, 2015 at 12:01 pm
I hear Jdubs in O Z are keeping off the streets and leaving the
curtains drawn. I can’t wait for Jacko”s next performance.
You got it right were all happy apostates here, I have it printed
on all my T Shirts. Come again soon S,S,
Reply
Grace says:
September 15, 2015 at 2:36 pm
Ted,
It’s funny that you mention t’shirts. Can you come up with a snappy t’shirt logo for me. My husband & I have been thinking of hand painting them. I wanted mine to say something like;
“When you have to lie to convince people of your beliefs then it’s time to question the ethics of your beliefs”.
Reply
minion says:
September 15, 2015 at 8:00 pm
@ Grace & Ted,
Allow me to share a suggestion:
on the front side:
Over Lapping
Generation
on the back side:
1-800
Bull
Crap
Printed and let me be the first to buy, – your price.
Peace out,
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 15, 2015 at 9:50 pm
@Ted, Grace, Minion: Have a look at this:
http://pixady.com/image/7oy/
Credit is given to Vincent Deporter for his brilliant artwork. When the page opens, you can click on the image to get a bigger version.
If this is funny, appropriate and legal, then I DID IT! If not, then I have no idea who did it, and I am highly offended, and if I ever do find out who DID do it, heads will roll!
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 15, 2015 at 10:10 pm
@Ted, Grace, Minion: Have a look at this:
pixady.com/image/7oy/
Credit was given to Vincent Deporter for his brilliant artwork. When the page opens, you can click on the image to make it bigger.
If it’s funny, appropriate and legal, then I DID IT! If not, then I have no idea who did it, I am highly offended, and if I ever find out who DID do it, HEAD’S WILL ROLL!
Reply
Catalina says:
September 15, 2015 at 12:12 pm
I noticed Geoffrey Jackson gave a very weak no for an answer when he was asked about corporal punishment. How many times have we been told during meetings it wont kill your son to beat him with the rod. My father used to tell me he should have spanked me more often. I couldn’t talk to him. It was like walking on egg shells being around him. The GB are liars.
Reply
wifibandit says:
September 15, 2015 at 12:33 pm
The “apostate lies” video with Lett has NOT been pulled from tv.jw.org.
http://tv.jw.org/#video/VODProgramsEvents/pub-jwbmw_201502_5_VIDEO
Reply
Cedars says:
September 15, 2015 at 12:43 pm
Thanks wifibandit – I apologise. I had been told by multiple sources that it had, but obviously they were mistaken. I will fix the text immediately. Thanks for drawing this to my attention.
Reply
wifibandit says:
September 15, 2015 at 1:57 pm
My fact-checking fees are steep, but well worth the price. 😉
Glad to help out, mate!
Reply
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← David Splane explains the overlapping generation teaching (without actually explaining it)
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12 things we learned from Geoffrey Jackson’s testimony at the Royal Commission
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Posted on September 14, 2015
Geoffrey Jackson's appearance before the Royal Commission left many questions unanswered
Geoffrey Jackson’s appearance before the Royal Commission left many questions unanswered
If you are one of the many current and former Jehovah’s Witnesses who spent much of last month glued to your screen watching the Australian Royal Commission into child abuse, likely you are still dumbfounded by the testimony of one person in particular: Governing Body member Geoffrey Jackson.
Senior Watchtower officials did their very best to stop Jackson from appearing, dismissing his relevance to the commission and insinuating that he was only involved in “translation.” Their efforts at insulating their leader drew the ire of Senior Council Angus Stewart, who accused Australian branch coordinator Terrence O’Brien of deliberately trying to mislead the commission over Jackson’s role.
Finally the commission saw through the shenanigans and Jackson was faced with an official summons to appear – a summons carrying legal ramifications if he failed to show. In the end, despite being in Australia (to tend to his sick father), Jackson opted to give his appearance by video link – to the disappointment of many who would have like to have seen him appear in person.
Wearing a dark three-piece suit and stripey tie, and seated at a table in what appeared to be an office conference room, Jackson had an air of confidence about him. He addressed the judge and senior council respectfully, but any humility seemed strained – especially in the context of some of the more defiant and pious expressions that were to follow.
Overall, Jackson’s testimony was a masterclass in evading the torrent of difficult questions unleashed upon him. Angus Stewart and Judge McClellan bombarded him with topics as diverse as corporal punishment, the two witness rule, the role of women, and shunning.
Jackson ducked and swerved any difficult, potentially incriminating questions with the finesse of an Aussie-rules footballer, albeit without possessing the corresponding physique. “That’s not my field” became his default retort, and if he didn’t like the question he wasn’t above modifying it in his answer. Even outright lies were deployed by the Governing Body member in his eagerness to get past the full-time whistle unscathed.
It’s difficult to do justice to the full day-long exchange, but I have taken the liberty of compiling a handy list of 12 key pieces of testimony given by Jackson that were either unusual, revealing, or downright misleading.
If you would like to examine Geoffrey Jackson’s testimony for yourself, you can do so in PDF form on this link, or using the video playlist at the foot of this article.
1. Ordinary Jehovah’s Witnesses can now officially acknowledge the problem of child abuse (at least in theory)
01 Jackson
As recently as February, Jackson’s co-Governing Body member Stephen Lett dismissed criticism of the organization’s child abuse record as “apostate-driven lies and dishonesties.” The morning worship video in which these comments were made was responded to by yours truly in the following YouTube video (skip to 03:10 to see Lett’s comments)…
As I commented at the time, rather than being “lies and dishonesties” the criticism of Watchtower’s child abuse mishandling was fully warranted, not least by the multi-million dollar judgments in both the Candace Conti and Jose Lopez verdicts of 2012 and 2014 respectively.
Still more recently, another Governing Body member, Tony Morris, indulged in an extraordinary rant on the issue of child abuse in the July 2015 JW Broadcasting episode. Not only did Morris attempt to scapegoat gay people as culpable for child molestation – he also claimed that the organization was proud of its reputation regarding child abuse and were even ahead of the game in that issue compared to the “somewhat naive” secular authorities.
Little over a month later, and under serious questioning by the senior council of a Royal Commission, Morris’ colleague Geoffrey Jackson sang an entirely different tune (bold is mine)…
Stewart: Do you recognise, Mr Jackson ‐ and in asking this question, let me make it clear, I’m not suggesting it is peculiar to the Jehovah’s Witness organisation, there are many, many organisations in this position ‐ but do you accept that the Jehovah’s Witness organisation has a problem with child abuse amongst its members?
Jackson: I accept that child abuse is a problem right throughout the community and it’s something that we’ve had to deal with as well.
Stewart: Do you accept that the manner in which your organisation has dealt with allegations of child sexual abuse has also presented problems?
Jackson: There have been changes in policies over the last 20 or 30 years, where we’ve tried to address some of those problem areas, and by the fact that they have changed the policy would indicate that the original policies weren’t perfect.
Stewart: And you accept, of course, that your organisation, including people in positions of responsibility, like elders, is not immune from the problem of child sexual abuse?
Jackson: That appears to be the case.
So there you have it. Jehovah’s Witnesses can now officially speak openly about their religion having a problem with child sexual abuse because, according to a member of the Governing Body, “that appears to be the case.”
Of course, whether there would be judicial ramifications anyway for speaking openly about child abuse in such an Orwellian organization is another matter entirely. Don’t expect “but Geoffrey Jackson said it’s true” to be a bullet-proof defense if you find yourself bundled into a backroom by the elders for mentioning the child abuse problem in a comment at the kingdom hall.
Stewart then went on to ask Jackson a line of questions that seemed expressly designed to counter the preposterous “apostate-driven lies and dishonesties” claim by Stephen Lett…
Stewart: Do you accept, Mr Jackson, that many of the efforts that are being made by different people and organisations to highlight the issue of child sexual abuse and try and find solutions are genuine efforts to improve the situation?
Jackson: I do accept that, and that’s why I’m happy to testify.
Stewart: And that such efforts are not necessarily an attack on your organisation or its system of beliefs?
Jackson: We understand that, too.
Stewart: You described earlier in your testimony that the work of this Royal Commission is beneficial. Do you accept, then, that the Royal Commission’s efforts are genuine and well‐intentioned?
Jackson: I certainly do. And that’s why we came in to the Royal Commission hoping that collectively something would come forward that would help us as well as everybody else.
Stewart: Would you disagree, then, with anyone who said that the efforts to highlight and deal with child sexual abuse in the Jehovah’s Witness church are engaging in apostate lies?
Jackson: I guess that’s a broad question, because sometimes those who make these accusations make many other accusations as well. But let me assure you, the person making the accusation is not the main thing. The main thing is: is there some basis to the accusation. And if there is some way that we could improve, the Governing Body is always interested in seeing how we can refine our policies. You see, Mr Stewart, could I just emphasise, as a religion, two very strong things we feel. One is, we try to keep a high moral standard. Secondly, there is love among the organisation. So we want to treat victims in a loving way.
That last response from Jackson was a typical example of his evasive tactics whenever an awkward question was put to him. Stewart’s question about apostate lies was direct and relevant, and answerable with a simple “yes” or “no.” But, knowing full well a “yes” OR “no” would be incriminating in different ways, Jackson dismissed the question itself as “broad” and spewed bluster about “many other accusations” leveled by apostates that clearly had nothing to do with the question.
Stewart wasn’t asking for Jackson to comment on his general observations about apostates, he was asking whether he believed scrutiny of child abuse within the organization by itself was tantamount to apostasy. As regards THAT specific question, no real answer was forthcoming. Jackson merely self-congratulated the Governing Body for its eagerness to refine its policies, uphold a “high moral standard,” and “treat victims in a loving way.”
Such fobbing off of an important question with pure bluster may get a politician through an awkward interview with a journalist, but Jackson was giving testimony on behalf of the Governing Body before a Judge at a Royal Commission. His sloppy tap dancing around difficult questions in such a serious forum will not have gone unnoticed, as I will highlight again later.
2. Jehovah’s Witnesses AREN’T allowed to spank their kids
02 Jackson
Like many who were raised as Witnesses I was spanked by my parents (using a belt, as I recall), and this spanking was ALWAYS justified on religious grounds using the bible and Watchtower publications.
So you can imagine my astonishment (no doubt shared by many current and former Witnesses) when Jackson repeatedly denied that Witnesses endorse corporal punishment. (Corporal punishment is defined by one dictionary as a “punishment administered by an adult (as a parent or a teacher) to the body of a child ranging in severity from a slap to a spanking.”)
The following are quotes from Watchtower publications that are at least permissive of corporal punishment, if not openly endorsing it (bold is mine)…
“Of course, children are children, and some are prone to be contrary, even wayward. (Genesis 8:21) What can parents do? ‘Foolishness is tied up with the heart of a boy; the rod of discipline is what will remove it far from him,’ says the Bible. (Proverbs 22:15) Some view this as harsh treatment that is out-of-date. Actually, the Bible is against violence and abuse of any sort. The ‘rod,’ though at times literal, represents parental authority that is administered firmly but lovingly and appropriately out of concern for the children’s eternal welfare.—Hebrews 12:7-11.” – w06 4/1 pp. 9-10
“Different children require different kinds of discipline. Some are not ‘corrected by mere words.’ For them, the occasional punishment administered for disobedience may be lifesaving. (Proverbs 17:10; 23:13, 14; 29:19) A child, though, should understand why he is being punished. ‘The rod and reproof are what give wisdom.’ (Proverbs 29:15; Job 6:24) Moreover, punishment has boundaries. ‘I shall have to chastise you to the proper degree,’ said Jehovah to his people. (Jeremiah 46:28b) The Bible in no way endorses angry whippings or severe beatings, which bruise and even injure a child.—Proverbs 16:32.” – “Family Happiness” book (1996), page 60
Certainly it must be acknowledged that some of the sentiments in more recent publications to the effect that “not all children need physical punishment” (w06 11/1 p.5) might be construed as a U-turn from past instructions on the matter, at least in part. A footnote to the 2002 Draw Close to Jehovah book even says: “Similarly, ‘the rod’ of parental authority suggests loving guidance, not harsh or brutal punishment.” (p.101)
But a specific, unequivocal condemnation of corporal punishment as archaic, outdated and abusive by Watchtower has yet to appear in print. A full printed retraction on the matter would be appropriate, especially given past guidance such as the following…
“There are times, of course, when every child needs discipline, even with the literal rod, but this should be done—and not overdone—firmly and in love, without displaying the heat of anger. Children will come to appreciate deserved chastisement, and it will not ‘exasperate’ them. They will appreciate, too, the kindness and loving care that they receive at other times.” – “Good News to Make You Happy” (1976), p166
3. The Governing Body MIGHT not be Jehovah’s only spokespersons
hotline-god
Especially since they declared themselves to be the faithful slave in 2012, the Governing Body CLEARLY believe themselves to be God’s sole spokespersons or “channel,” as stated explicitly in published statements like the following (bold is mine)…
“Even as Bible prophecy pointed forward to the Messiah, it also directs us to the close-knit body of anointed Christian Witnesses that now serve as the faithful and discreet slave. It helps us to understand the Word of God. All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the ‘greatly diversified wisdom of God’ can become known only through Jehovah’s channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave.—John 6:68.” – w94 10/1 p.8
And yet, when confronted with Angus Stewart’s blunt question “Do you see yourselves as Jehovah God’s spokespeople on earth?” the answer that came from Jackson’s lips was astounding.
“That I think would seem to be quite presumptuous to say that we are the only spokesperson that God is using. The scriptures clearly show that someone can act in harmony with God’s spirit in giving comfort and help in the congregations, but if I could just clarify a little, going back to Matthew 24, clearly, Jesus said that in the last days ‐ and Jehovah’s Witnesses believe these are the last days ‐ there would be a slave, a group of persons who would have responsibility to care for the spiritual food. So in
that respect, we view ourselves as trying to fulfill that role.”
Jackson thus answered the question by changing it, and not for the first time during his testimony. The question was NOT “do you think you are the only ones being used by God’s spirit?” The question deliberately highlighted the role of God’s “spokesperson,” or channel of communication. It had nothing to do with, say, an ordinary publisher offering comfort and help in the congregation.
Jackson’s answer was, therefore, another attempt at ducking a question where an honest answer would have made him look foolish and deluded.
4. A ‘worldly’ lawyer can beat a Governing Body member in a scripture duel
03 Jackson
One of the most delightful and unexpected exchanges between Angus Stewart and Geoffrey Jackson arose from the former’s attempts to persuade the latter that there IS a scriptural basis for discarding the two witness rule as it relates to child sex abuse. The fascinating conversation is captured in the video below…
Simply put, Stewart correctly argued that child sex abuse amounts to rape, and because according to Deuteronomy 22:23-27 a rape victim who is attacked without witnesses in a field is to STILL see her attacker brought to justice (despite apparently being the only witness to the attack), therefore the same precedent could be applied to child sex abuse.
After considerable bluster about “circumstances,” again apparently aimed at obscuring the question, Jackson conceded that one witness was sufficient for a rapist to be stoned to death.
With predatory precision, Stewart then moved in for the kill.
“Is it not the case that had Jesus been asked about a case of sexual abuse, he may have referred back to this part of Deuteronomy and said that it’s not required to have two witnesses?”
Jackson could only reply: “I certainly would like to ask Jesus that, and I can’t at the moment, I hope to in the future. But that’s a hypothetical question which, if we had an answer, then we could support what you said.”
Subsequent to this exchange, Jackson submitted a written testimony to the commission effectively backtracking on everything he’d conceded on this point. Apparently Jackson no longer wants to ask Jesus about the question in the future, because “new light” has furnished him with the answer in record time.
According to Jackson’s written explanation, the two witness rule overrides the rape provision in Deuteronomy. And in any case, the rapist described would have already had his guilt established without the woman’s testimony. Essentially, Jackson trusts that the rapist would have given a full confession to elders of raping the woman in the field, despite facing the penalty of death by stoning for doing so.
Dubious and desperate reasoning aside, history will show that Angus Stewart gifted a Governing Body member with an opportunity to biblically justify scrapping the shameful two witness rule in relation to child abuse. And instead of seizing this gilt-edged opportunity to protect children, for reasons best known to him, Jackson bent over backwards to reject it.
5. A Governing Body member fails to deny that shunning is cruel
shunning2
A long and rather arduous exchange ensued from Angus Stewart’s brave attempts to pin Geoffrey Jackson down on the issue of shunning. As I have previously pointed out, you would think if shunning is a divine command from Jehovah himself Watchtower representatives, including Governing Body members, would leap at any chance to declare their glowing pride at the policy. Instead they do their level best to misrepresent it, or deny it altogether.
Jackson pursued just such an approach, this time by again attempting to cloud the issue. Fortunately, Stewart had done his homework on the matter and refused to be sidetracked. “I have chosen my words deliberately, Mr Jackson,” said Stewart with an air of exasperation at one such attempt to switch the subject of the question from disassociated ones to inactive ones.
Finally, after a lengthy exchange involving various hypothetical scenarios, Jackson had given Stewart enough rope to hang him with.
Stewart: Mr Jackson, you have put it that they have a choice to leave or not to leave. For someone who wants to leave, perhaps because they have suffered abuse by someone in the organisation and don’t feel that it has been treated properly or adequately, it’s a very difficult choice, isn’t it, because they must choose ‐‐
Jackson: I agree, yes.
Stewart: And it can be a very cruel choice for them ‐ not so?
Jackson: I agree, it’s a difficult choice.
And so, at the end of a marathon series of questioning, finally an end product of sorts: a Governing Body member failing to deny that the “difficult choice” facing those who wish to leave the organization is a cruel one.
6. Having a Christmas tree won’t necessarily get you disfellowshipped
christmas
In the labyrinth of questions aimed at highlighting the shunning policy, Angus Stewart asked Geoffrey Jackson the following…
So, for example, if they [a Jehovah’s Witness] had become inactive or sought to fade without formally disassociating, and the elders came to visit and found them celebrating Christmas or a birthday, they would be found to be in transgression of the rules, would they not?
Jackson’s answer was remarkable…
That is not my understanding. But again, as I said, it is not my field, that goes into policy with regard to those type of things, but from my personal experience, that’s not the case.
Anybody who knows anything about the Witness faith knows that celebrating Christmas or birthdays is expressly prohibited for Witnesses – a “transgression of the rules” as Stewart carefully phrased it. In fact “celebrating false religious holidays” is clearly listed as a form of apostasy in the Shepherd book and deemed judicially actionable by elders.
As with his earlier obfuscation about corporal punishment, Jackson’s ability to contort the truth so readily rather than take pride in teachings and practices that are supposed to be mandated by God will have been a huge wake-up call for any sincere Witnesses who dared to watch.
7. The Governing Body chooses the Governing Body (not Jesus)
gb-meeting
Hopefully it is rather obvious that the Governing Body chooses itself, or is self-appointed. But according to Watchtower literature the Governing Body is “not appointed by any man. It is appointed by the same one who appointed the twelve apostles in the first century C.E., namely, Jesus Christ the Head of the true Christian congregation and the Lord and Master of the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ class.” (w71 12/15 p.758)
Interestingly, however, nowhere in his testimony did Geoffrey Jackson even try to claim that Jesus appoints the Governing Body members.
Early on in the questioning, Angus Stewart asked: “And is it the case that the Governing Body then appoints new members of the Governing Body?” This would have been the perfect opportunity for Jackson to give a rambling theological lecture to the effect that Jesus is actually the one who does the appointing.
Instead we got a straightforward: “That is correct.”
Thinking Witnesses would do well to ask themselves: If the Governing Body is self-appointed, how does it differ in any meaningful sense from the leaders of other religions? From where does the Governing Body receive its mandate to lead ‘God’s organization’ if the appointments are openly and unashamedly made by men?
8. The Governing Body are “guardians of doctrine”
guardians
Watchtower literature has always taught that the role of the faithful and discreet slave is to provide God’s people with spiritual food “at the proper time.” In 2012 the Governing Body exclusively assumed this responsibility from Matthew 24:45 – verses that many regard as a parable rather than a prophecy.
But repeatedly in his testimony Jackson made a claim that will have sounded strange to the ears of many familiar with Witness teachings, namely that the Governing Body are to be considered the “custodians,” or “guardians,” of doctrine…
◾“So the goal of the Governing Body as custodians of our doctrine is to publish literature that helps people in everyday life using what the Bible says.”
◾“But the qualifications of a member for the Governing Body ‐ it involves someone who is considered an anointed Witness, who has worked in scriptural, with a scriptural background, either as a missionary or a full‐time servant for many years, and is able to fulfil the role of the Governing Body, which is, may I state, a group, a spiritual group of men who are the guardians of our doctrine, and as guardians of the doctrine, look at things that need to be decided based on our doctrines, which are based on the constitution of the Bible.”
◾“What we view ourselves, as fellow workers with our brothers and sisters ‐ we have been given a responsibility to guard or to be guardians of doctrine.”
◾“Ultimately, as guardians of our doctrine and beliefs, yes, some central group needs to make that decision, but that doesn’t mean to say that we are just on our own unilaterally making those decisions without research and input from others.”
It is one thing to print spiritual material based on your interpretation of what is written in the bible, but why this sudden fixation with guarding doctrine? If God has passed down his requirements to humanity in clear and unambiguous form, why do these need to be guarded by a group of men? Couldn’t any group of religious leaders assume such a role for themselves? Why this sudden fixation with protecting established doctrine rather than focusing on principles of love, mercy and grace?
Hopefully I am not the only one who found Jackson’s repeated expressions along these lines rather grating and cultish.
9. The Governing Body doesn’t care about the feelings of child abuse victims
victim2
Justice McClellan entered the fray on a number of occasions during Jackson’s testimony with the seeming intent of getting Jackson to reason on a human level. A good example of this was during a line of questioning about the feelings of female sex abuse victims who are made to give evidence to a committee comprised solely of men.
“Can you understand how a woman might feel when allegations which she brings forward against a man in the congregation are considered and judged entirely by men?” asked McClellan.
Jackson’s response was astonishing.
“Obviously I’m not a woman, so I wouldn’t like to speak on their behalf, but the two of us, I am sure, could understand from what has been expressed and believe that perhaps there would be a hesitancy there.”
And so Jackson washed his hands of the need to empathize with the feelings of women by virtue of the fact that he is not a woman. Only “perhaps” might women be hesitant to bring sex abuse allegations against a man before an all-male tribunal.
Another clue that Jackson is less than preoccupied with concern for the welfare of sex abuse victims can be found in his ignorance of the earlier testimony of BCG.
When asked by BCG’s lawyer whether he’d read her client’s evidence, Jackson replied: “I haven’t, I’m sorry. The reason I came here [to Australia] was to care for my ailing father, and that has taken a lot of my time. Plus, I wasn’t aware of the fact that I would be called before the Commission.”
At first glance this may sound like a reasonable excuse, but a disparity soon emerges when you consider the multiple occasions on which Jackson referred to the previous testimony of his own Watchtower representatives – something he somehow HAD found the time to brush up on despite caring for his father (bold is mine)…
◾“But if I could mention, some of the reports that you have considered are from 25 years ago, and if I understand correctly, from what little I heard of the Commission in the last few days, Mr Spinks very accurately described that there has been more of an awareness of Jehovah’s Witnesses to make sure that any victim who has been a victim of a horrible crime is not required to actually go before three men.”
◾“If I understand your question correctly, from what I have heard from Mr Spinks’ testimony, that is not something that we require now.”
◾“Thank you for the opportunity to explain this. I think very clearly Mr Toole pointed out that if the Australian Government, in all the States, was to make mandatory reporting, it would make it so much easier for us.”
◾“Could I explain, Mr Stewart, that ‐ you see, I think already under testimony some of Jehovah’s Witnesses have explained that the two‐witnesses needed can be, in some cases, the circumstances.”
Therefore, Jackson HAD taken time out to research previous evidence in the commission. He was just very selective about whose evidence he listened to, and seemingly had a preference for brushing up on what Watchtower representatives had to say rather than child abuse victims.
Another telling moment came when BCG’s clearly-exasperated lawyer expressed her dismay at Monica Applewhite’s evidence as paid for by Watchtower, which seems to have been roundly dismissed as one-sided and non-credible by the Commission.
“It is really disheartening for the survivors that evidence from people such as Dr Applewhite, without any reference whatsoever to the victims ‘experience, suggests to them that the reason for engaging experts is… more to do with the reputation of the Jehovah’s Witnesses than any real attempt to get to a deep understanding of their experience.”
In response to what was, again, more of an appeal to his humanity, Jackson replied…
“I certainly hope that is not the case, and that certainly was not the intent of it. So please, be assured that we are interested in the individuals such as the client that you are representing. And may I take this opportunity, I don’t know your client, but please, could you convey an expression of my love and concern and reassure her that obviously she has had an opportunity to speak about how she feels, and hopefully this will help the policies and procedures to improve.”
So, not only had Jackson failed to find time to research the testimony of victims of child abuse within his organization, despite somehow finding time to listen to the testimony of Watchtower representatives Rodney Spinks and Vincent Toole. Jackson had also thrown away an opportunity to show compassion by admitting that the deployment of “expert for hire” Monica Applewhite was in poor taste from the point of view of the victims. And to add insult to injury, he was now issuing instructions to BCG’s lawyer to act as a go-between with her client.
My response, had I been on the receiving end of this request, would have been: “I take instructions from BCG – not you, Mr Jackson. I’m sure if you really care about BCG and her situation, you will find the time and means to convey that message to her yourself in person.”
10. Lots of things are not Geoffrey Jackson’s “field”
09 Jackson
As you’ve probably gathered by now, Jackson used every trick in the book during his testimony to dodge or evade questions where an honest answer would land him in hot water.
Here are a few examples of Jackson repeating the line that a certain subject was “not his field,” or trying to buy time before answering a question…
◾“I would have to check on that, because personally that’s not my field.”
◾“I preface this in the fact that it is not my field that I work with every day…”
◾“Seeing it is not my field per se, I couldn’t give an inclusive answer with regard to that…”
◾“Sorry, you would need to walk me through that a little further. I’m not quite sure.”
◾“I preface this in the fact that it is not my field that I work with every day…”
◾“I am not familiar with the statistics or the general practice…”
◾“That’s a very large question and I think it’s something that we would need to consider carefully.”
◾“That is a possibility, but in all fairness to your question, I think there are circumstances, but I couldn’t make a definitive comment on that.”
◾“You know, your Honour, this is not my field.”
◾“I can’t say that I would give a comment on that…”
On two occasions in particular, frustration over Jackson’s question-dodging antics spilled over.
The most notable of these instances was the previously-discussed exchange regarding Christmas, in which Jackson insinuated that celebrating Christmas wouldn’t necessarily result in a disfellowshipping.
“But again, as I said, it is not my field,” was his disclaimer.
“Mr Jackson,” said Angus Stewart, his frustration obvious, “you say it’s not your field, but you are a member of the Governing Body which is responsible, as you have said, for the whole field, and you have been a member for 10 years, and all the committees are responsible to and accountable to the Governing Body.”
“That is correct,” said Jackson.
“So it is your field, isn’t it?”
“Only as far as approving the basic scriptural principles. So is there a scriptural principle that you have in mind you want to ask me about, or are you talking about policies and implementation of policies? There is a difference there.”
Then, later on, it was Justice McClellan’s turn to be visibly exasperated at Jackson’s stubborn refusal to answer a straightforward question – this time regarding whether Witness women could be involved in the judiciary process even if not in the sentencing (or punishment)…
Justice McClellan: Could women be involved in the determination of whether or not the allegation is true?
Jackson: Well, your Honour, if I could say, I think they already are involved, in the sense ‐‐
Justice McClellan: Not in the decision, Mr Jackson. Please address my question.
Jackson: Okay. But yes, in ‐ well, please, could I just use an example. If an underage child says that something has happened and then two women are involved with helping that person, surely they have to decide whether or not the facts are true. They then present those to the elders. Otherwise, how would the elders know what the facts are?
Justice McClellan: Mr Jackson, you are not dealing with my question.
Jackson: I am sorry. I apologise humbly, your Honour.
Again, we are not talking about journalists or a random member of the public being overly inquisitive. We are talking about a Judge at a specially-appointed Royal Commission charged with uncovering the serious mishandling of child abuse.
Whatever Jackson may privately think of his performance, it is difficult to imagine him leaving a positive impression before the Commission. Indeed, Justice McClellan seemed to have a slight parting dig at him, saying “You are formally excused from your summons” rather than the usual, “you are excused.”
11. (Don’t laugh!) The Governing Body is good at saying sorry
sorry
Yes, apparently the Governing Body are quite accomplished when it comes to apologizing for their mistakes.
When asked by Angus Stewart whether he could foresee the Governing Body ever issuing an apology to survivors of sexual abuse at the hands of elders in the organization, this was Jackson’s response…
“The Governing Body has apologised on other matters, so for me to say ‐ I can’t speak collectively for everybody, but we have apologised on things in the past, in other areas, so it is perceivable.”
If someone could point me in the direction of where these apologies may be found, I would greatly appreciate it. To my knowledge the Governing Body has never apologized once for anything. And in rare instances where it has addressed areas of regret, it has usually found a way of apportioning the blame elsewhere – as was the case with the ‘apology’ for 1975. (w76 7/15 p.441 par.15)
12. Penguins are not found in the middle of Australia
10 Jackson
Ok, so the last one is a bit silly, but you must allow me a bit of a chuckle at Jackson’s rather random penguin comment. It seems remiss to exclude it from the list.
Early in the proceedings, when trying to establish the role and influence of the Governing Body, Angus Stewart asked Jackson whether the Governing Body takes responsibility for organizational manuals and guidelines. The odd way Jackson chose to answer the question came as a surprise.
“We do take spiritual responsibility for it, yes. May I just mention, if there is a printing mistake and we say that penguins are found in the middle of Australia, then, yes, it’s true, we take responsibility, but it’s without not within the realms of our expertise. But we would check to see who it was that had given that wrong information.”
Hopefully Jackson and his fellow dear leaders DO possess sufficient knowledge to question a printed claim that penguins live in Australia without having specific expertise in zoology. That said, given Stephen Lett’s recent claims that there is as much evidence for Christ’s kingdom as there is for “gravity, electricity, wind,” perhaps we need to lower our expectations.
And if only the Governing Body DID take prompt action whenever wrong information is printed in the publications! Mind you, they would have their work cut out fact-checking and issuing corrections for nearly 140 years of false predictions, pseudo-science, medical quackery, doctrinal flip-flops, abusive policies, misquotes, draconian rules and spurious interpretations of scripture – a daunting task if ever there was one.
Perhaps encountering a penguin in the Australian outback is more likely.
new-cedars-signature3
Further reading…
◾Australian Royal Commission hears that 1,006 alleged child sex abusers were covered up by Watchtower
◾Elders shamed under questioning by the Royal Commission
◾Reflecting on the Australian Royal Commission (Day 3, Part 1)
◾Royal Commission’s Angus Stewart accuses Watchtower representative of deliberate deception
◾JWsurvey articles on child abuse
Huge thanks go to Vincent Deporter, JWsurvey’s resident artist, for contributing artwork for this article. If you enjoy Vincent’s work, you might be interested in obtaining a copy of “Sacred Cows,” a recent picture book that takes a lighthearted look at religion.
I am in the process of working on video rebuttals to Jackson’s royal commission testimony as a five-part video series. Please subscribe to my YouTube channel for updates when these videos are uploaded.
If you still haven’t watched the footage from the Royal Commission, a playlist of videos is below…
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309 Responses to 12 things we learned from Geoffrey Jackson’s testimony at the Royal Commission
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Will says:
September 15, 2015 at 1:06 pm
Wow, so much information, but I suspect Jackson thinks he was using “theocratic strategy”. Since I can’t use foul language here, I’ll clean up what I really think. Mr. Jackson is a liar. He claims to be a member of the faithful and discreet slave. Presumably, he was an elder and circuit overseer. To say that disfellowshipping is not his level of expertise is shocking!!! Wow!!! I really hope something happens from this inquiry. Unfortunately, this hasn’t receive the attention it should. This, at least in the U.S.A,, has flown under the radar. It’s very sad because this is HUGE. Good job is analyzing and report, Lloyd.
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ruthlee says:
September 15, 2015 at 1:37 pm
ha ha ha my mum used to threaten me with stoning when i was a kid because i could not sit still at kh. turns out i had arthritic hips as a child. also was demonised (used to look for demons in my eyes in the mirror)
never found a demon yet .so this abusive cult has much to answer for only two suicide attempts under my belt i might get a t shirt printed but the writing would be too small to read as there is much to say i say bring on the doom of the doom mongers ruthlee
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JB Reezner says:
September 15, 2015 at 4:57 pm
Ruth, I was just reading all of these standard post comments and when I got to yours my heart went from BEATING to BROKEN in 10 seconds. What a powerful example of the immense emotional damage that so often results when innocent victims -especially children- are caught in the snare of a cult.
Not to compete with you at all, but let me mention that, as a child, I was told that we had demons in our house based on some bizarre sights and sounds perceived by my mother a few times. Realistically, these things should have easily been explained away as hallucinations brought on by some intensely stressful domestic circumstances existing at that time. But, rather than guiding her to a reasonable explanation, our frequently-visiting Jehovah’s Witnesses guided mom instead to the conclusion of demonic activity and began to teach her about how important Jehovah’s name is when it comes to scaring demons away. I lived in a small, drafty, creaky old house, and to this day, I can still remember the STARK TERROR I felt as a child for YEARS when I was alone in that house. If I had a dollar for every time I used the name “Jehovah” back then for my personal defense when I was simply walking, for example, to the kitchen, I’d be writing this comment from my mansion. I say that with a little lightness, merely to keep from crying. Decades later, I remember that fear like it was yesterday.
I appreciate your openness about your experiences, Ruth. Please add me to the list of people you consider to be your NEW friends (even if still in probationary status). And put me on the list of people who care about you- with no strings attached.
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JB Reezner says:
September 15, 2015 at 5:06 pm
Ruth, I was just reading all of the standard post comments and when I got to yours my heart went from BEATING to BROKEN in 10 seconds. What a powerful example of the immense emotional damage that so often results when innocent victims -especially children- are caught in the snare of a cult.
Not to compete with you at all, but let me mention that, as a child, I was told that we had demons in our house based on some bizarre sights and sounds perceived by my mother a few times. Realistically, these things should have easily been explained away as hallucinations brought on by some intensely stressful domestic circumstances existing at that time. But, rather than guiding her to a reasonable explanation, our frequently-visiting Jehovah’s Witnesses guided mom instead to the conclusion of demonic activity and began to teach her about how important Jehovah’s name is when it comes to scaring demons away. I lived in a small, drafty, creaky old house, and to this day, I can still remember the STARK TERROR I felt as a child for YEARS when I was alone in that house. If I had a dollar for every time I used the name “Jehovah” back then for my personal defense when I was simply walking, for example, to the kitchen, I’d be writing this comment from my mansion. I say that with a little lightness, merely to keep from crying. Decades later, I remember that fear like it was yesterday.
I appreciate your openness about your experiences, Ruth. Please add me to the list of people you consider to be your NEW friends (even if still in probationary status). And put me on the list of people who care about you- with no strings attached.
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ruthlee says:
September 16, 2015 at 3:36 am
dear jb unlike the wierdos i have lived with all my life my love for humanity still holds. one day if lloyd wants my story i will write it you would gasp with disbelief., even my sledgehammer husband cant quite believe what i went through it really would make a horror story, so for me having this site and brave souls like cedars gives me hope. the final chapter i am in now is intense study of the Bible and knowing i must eventually denounce these wicked people .they may call us mentally diseased but do thay ever put us at our ease. i pray for the day that the smashing instrument starts at the house of God no mercy as the cup will be in their hands to drink freely and some of us i hope will see this but if not as i said its on record . trying not to be evangelical but im in Christ now safe and at peace with love unconditionally ruthlee
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Meredith J says:
September 16, 2015 at 12:43 am
So sorry for you ruthlee that you had two attempted suicide attempts under your belt. What a worthless piece of junk is the Watchtower. So many lives destroyed and damaged from their brainwashed abuse.
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Idontknowhatodo says:
September 22, 2015 at 3:58 am
I cant believe what I just read RL….
I used to stand looking in the mirror making faces at myself to see if there was evil behind my eyes because my mother told me I was a rebel and rebels were stoned in Israel…
I also lived in fear of things like Leukaemia… I remember reading the heart-rending story of a very young sister who started having nose bleeds and was diagnosed with Leukaemia… she was so young and her parents refused blood transfusions…and she subsequently died..it was the 60s and you were not made wards of court so easily…I started just then I was about 6 to have a spate of nose bleeds and the fear of dying overtook my life for about a year…even then I feel like there was a little voice in the back of my mind whispering…’are you sure they are telling the truth?’…I look back and realise the cruelty of that upbringing…I made the decision that if ever my children while under my care needed any sort of treatment I would give my permission for it…and that included blood transfusion…and I think thats when my waking up started…when I realised I had a choice…any child brought up by strict witness parents in the 60s and 70s in my mind was abused…they have so much to answer for…mental illness…depression…suicide..the list is never ending.
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anonymous says:
September 22, 2015 at 5:37 am
@Idontknowwhattodo, I can relate to what you said. All the time my kids were growing up, I was terrified that they might get leukemia. When my youngest daughter was in her early twenty’s, she came up with idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura and almost died from it. She survived that with blood products but as I remember, it was blood fractions but then when she had to have an emergency C-section with twins, her platelets dropped below 50,000 (150,000-400,000 normal) in three hours, there is a very good chance she would have bled to death without blood and so under the most distressing conditions anyone can imagine, she asked me what I would do and I told her that I’d take the platelets. It wasn’t a full transfusion but it wasn’t on the list either. She suffered from a bad conscience for taking the platelets but I didn’t.
A couple days later, I got up early and started typing out all the reasons why I didn’t believe that taking blood was wrong according to the Bible and especially how if you split up the fractions, what is the difference? I finally reasoned on it and since we could take fractions, it simply didn’t make any sense to me that the Society would split hairs as to what was acceptable to God and wasn’t. My husband actually made the comment at that time, that he believed she should have died rather than take the platelets.
I sent that letter to the Society and the elders came and talked to me about it. I wished I had kept that letter because it was the best writing I have ever done. After reading that letter, there is no way that anybody could believe taking blood was wrong according to the Bible. The elders talked to me and nothing happened to me. I think they could see that I was right but I think my husband actually thought that I should have been disfellowshipped for what I told my daughter. I will never regret what I told her and now since she’s woken up from the lies of the Society, she doesn’t suffer from a bad conscience and is glad I was there to help her through it.
We sign those consent forms that the brothers almost force us to sign and have witnesses to it but we were always coerced into doing it. We put our heads under the sand when it comes to those forms, not thinking that it might actually happen to us that we’d be put in the position of taking blood to save our lives and then all of a sudden there it is, facing us in the face, either us personally or one of our children. Nobody should be placed in that position by a religious organization who claims to be speaking for God. The Bible speaks for itself. We don’t need people to interpret it for us. If we are going to die for what the Bible says, we need to be convinced that there even is a God and that the Bible is perfect and “inspired by a perfect God” and I don’t mean by the fact that life forms are complicated either. That doesn’t prove that we were created by a God or that our Bible is inspired of a perfect God.
The Society always wanted us to do it at the book study and I always refused to do it then but took the forms home but I did keep my blood card in my wallet but after I woke up from the lies, I threw it away.
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Ted says:
September 15, 2015 at 3:22 pm
Hi Grace, good to hear from you. Our friend on the forum
Steve stone has presented us with a ready made slogan
for your T Shirts.
How about, “Jacko for Prime Minister, the Master of
Spin, He’ll get you out of any Hole”. You’ll probably
get a few curious people wanting to know more about
such a talented guy. Who Steve says has acquired
Rock Star status, and now has an army of besotted
groupies.
Just an impromptu thought, Best wishes Ted.
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Grace says:
September 15, 2015 at 4:58 pm
Thanks Ted,
I love that “Jacko for Prime Minister”. Ha Ha, that is what their aim is really, to take over the world with their delusional little North Korean like Government.
I like t’shirts that make you stop and think. Clever ones that catch your eye & make a statement not an advertisement. I know when I come across a really good t’shirt slogan it sticks with me & it makes my day that someone has something subtle to say without saying anything verbally.
They really do believe that they are superior to the secular authorities with their own little judicial court systems. Sentencing people to death with their version of justice.
When Jackson said to Angus, “this is what happens when Secular Authorities get involved with Scripture” or something similar to that. Angus should have replied back with; “this is what happens when Religious Nuts get involved with Judicial Systems”.
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Grace says:
September 15, 2015 at 5:56 pm
I just want to correct what I wrote previously about Jackson saying; “this is what happens when Secular Authorities get involved with Scripture”. He really said; “Well,this is one of the difficulties we have when a secular Commission is trying to analyse a religious subject.” Sorry guys for the misquoting & wrong conclusion I made.
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steve stone says:
September 15, 2015 at 5:00 pm
NEVER thought my comment in apostate wasteland would even be noticed much less commented on!
u aposties must attend to the needs of the flock much better than i thought !
lol
p.s. an apostie is just a VERY dedicated apostate for definition purposes. worldwide i personally estimate there to be ONLY 50 aposties worldwide and of course u john cedars ARE one of them !
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steve stone says:
September 15, 2015 at 5:04 pm
actually ted there is a famous ski place in the states called jackson hole
then again there was also a famous band called the jackson five but thats just a little off the subject isnt it
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pearlsB4swine says:
September 15, 2015 at 3:40 pm
If Geoffrey Jackson is now a “rock star” at Bethel because of his performance at the ARC then just a suggestion – maybe bethelites need to get out more. Just sayin.
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ruthlee says:
September 16, 2015 at 3:40 am
if geoff is a rock star lets throw rocks at him oops silly me diamonds rl
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pearlsB4swine says:
September 16, 2015 at 3:16 pm
The rock star GB will now end every talk with
“Don’t applaud, brothers, just thow money. Make it rain my dear brothersand sisters make it raaaiiin!!”
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Ocma says:
September 15, 2015 at 3:59 pm
What does he mean it’s ‘not his field’. GB member and he doesn’t know the in’s and out’s of everything? BS! I was just a lowly ‘sister’, but I knew what was up. He is a liar, that is why he couldn’t plainly answer the questions.
Anyway, great write up :) Good points, especially with how he “”didn’t”” have time to read up on the victim, but knew all about what the Elders had said.
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Pickled brain says:
September 15, 2015 at 4:18 pm
@PB Reezner. ‘TEENAGE WASTELAND ‘ sounds like the story of Teenage JWs getting Baptised too Early to make a Rational Decision with their lives.!! Geoffrey Jackson Baptised at 11 proves my point!
Thanks For the Dedication on a previous post. My Mother ???BABA O’ RILEY ???had a Really Tough Life being Baptised as a Teenager. Made the wrong decision!! Keep up the Excellent Comments PB!
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JB Reezner says:
September 15, 2015 at 5:52 pm
You’re welcome and thank you! And YOU are “PB”, I am “JB”! Put the mug down. You’ve already had too much, haha..
Good interpretation of Teenage Wasteland. The Who seems to have had MANY songs relevant to our cause.
“Join Together” -for all of US!
“Reign o’er Me” -what the GB expects millions of people to say to THEM.
“Heaven and Hell” -the difference between being OUT of the organization and IN it.
“Who Are You” -what Jesus would’ve said to Judge Rutherford had he actually gotten to Heaven.
“5:15” -clearly refers to Revelation 5:15 -not found in all Bibles- that says NO, I’M NOT TALKING ABOUT “ANOINTED” JW’s, immediately after Re 5:14 that mentions the 24 elders.
“I Can’t Explain” -an honest reaction of JW’s being caught off-guard with a question about the ‘overlapping generations’ nonsense.
And finally, “I Can See For Miles” -the excited outburst of somebody looking into Steve Lett’s EAR.
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Meredith J says:
September 16, 2015 at 12:48 am
As a Who fan I have to agree.
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Pickled brain says:
September 16, 2015 at 2:29 pm
@JB Reezner. You are so right PB.. Sorry I meant JB . THAT DAMN MUG is BIG!
All I can say is WOW!! You certainly know your The Who Songs!! You certainly are a WIZARD with Words !! …A Game of PINBALL Anyone!!
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JB Reezner says:
September 16, 2015 at 11:01 pm
Haha, thaaanks PB. I’d take you seriously, but I know you are only “fiddling about”. Ehh, okay, I used that one with great reluctance… I’m sleepy. I’ll wait till morning to regret it.
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Catalina says:
September 15, 2015 at 4:18 pm
John Cedars you really are helping a lot of people. This website has many good people with strong back bone. My own personal experience proves how shallow JWs are. In 1988 I was in an abusive marriage. My family had turned their backs on me because I was inactive, I had married out of the truth and I had celebrated Christmas. I ran to my dad for help one day because my husband had punched me in my stomach. I had no money and no place to go so I ran to my dad for help. I was told I couldn’t stay with him and I was sent back to my husband. After I got home my husband took me for a ride in his car. We stopped on a dirt road off of Yosemite Ave near Manteca, Ca. away from homes and buildings. My husband said he wanted to die and he wanted us to die together. He pulled his 45 mm glock gun out of his fanny pack. I talked him out of killing us. I was very, very calm the whole time. He drove us home. He pouted all the way home. He told me to go to bed. Before I went to bed I saw he was drinking a lot of vodka. I saw him take some methadone and clonazepam. He took the phone from the bedroom with him. I felt intimidated. I was scared of him. I remained in bed for several hours. At 3:30 am I got out of bed when I heard him making an unusual loud snoring sound. I called emergency 911. They took him to the hospital. He died three days later when his heart to stop beating. My family contacted me after my husband died because they wanted me to return to the truth. I feel a lot of resentment towards my family and JWs. They don’t help people. They don’t care about people. JWs live in a fake world. They are shallow. They only care about appearances. They don’t think for themselves. I feel JWs are delusional. They turn away from real responsibility, don’t get involved. They don’t really care about anyone or help anybody. They overestimate themselves.
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anonymous says:
September 15, 2015 at 4:43 pm
@Catalina, I feel so bad for what you have had to go through. I married in the “truth” to a man who was a third generation Witness and he started punching me with his fist as soon as we got married. There was no way I could tell anybody what he was like because he came from such a “good” family and nobody would have believed me because I didn’t grow up in the “truth”.
Once when I was in my twenty’s, I had a kidney infection and a fever of over 104 degrees and we had no phone and I was so sick that I couldn’t even get out of bed without passing out. My kidneys stopped working and I begged him to take me to the hospital and he refused. He said ‘he” couldn’t afford a hospital bill. I went from Sunday morning until Tuesday afternoon at 5 p.m. when my fever broke and I went to the bathroom for the first time.
I lived through that experience and I had absolutely no one who was a witness to what I went through except for my husband. If I told anybody what happened to me, they wouldn’t believe it because he is such a good liar. When I married this man, my family told me that I couldn’t come back home again so asking them for help was out.
I am still married to this man and if his mouth is moving, he’s probably lying. In this religion, it is impossible to leave a marriage with dignity. Even if a man commits adultery and the woman has grounds for a “scriptural” divorce, most people would wonder what she did to “cause” him to do what he did.
If anybody is coming to this site and are studying with Jehovah’s Witnesses, quit!!! All our experiences that we are telling about are true.
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JB Reezner says:
September 15, 2015 at 7:57 pm
@Catalina and anonymous: I’m so sorry for what you have both been through, and for what you are still going through. One of my dearest friends was a precious (now deceased) sister who was married to a drug-addicted, porn-addicted, sociopathic piece of garbage (who was in “good standing” at the time). When she finally reached her limit, she filed for divorce, and the meetings she had with the elders after that (that she shared with me) revealed such a level of coldness and ineptitude, and such a lack of wisdom and love on the part of the elders, that it simply blew my mind. The proceedings were so slanted in favor of the “brother” (the cause of ALL the problems), I couldn’t believe it. Her father was even an ELDER, yet he still had to do everything in his power to TRY to get his daughter treated fairly. The elders eventually GRUDGINGLY delivered the correct outcome, but the experience left my friend scarred. I remember the thought FINALLY hitting me: I know the elders are imperfect, but why are -not all- but SO MANY of them so inadequate, unwise, illogical, cold, harsh, incompetent, and just plain stupid. Even with imperfection being a factor, shouldn’t there be a vast majority of elders who are loving and wise, or at least honestly trying to be?There were many factors in my eventually leaving the Org, but that realization was certainly one of them.
I wish you both safety, peace and freedom.
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ruthlee says:
September 16, 2015 at 3:56 am
but honestly how could the elders help, they clean windows and watch rubbish telly. they camp in the summer together so never see how real people live .never visit other churches to see how its done and never read their Bibles or they would not misquote or beat the little sheep. it is shameful to have put such inadequate men in positions of authority with such lack of education .it would be like me going to the butchers to have a tooth filled and coming out with a foot off because it seemed like a good idea at the time. just a thought arent you so glad mr angus stewart and mr mcclelland were not raised as idiot jws ?fancy that we could have had two window cleaners defend us! wouldnt that be just fine and dandy they would have had minimal education so would have fitted in quite well with our lot . that was an odd tangent anyway im am so thankful to have heard the way they counterargued the nonsense and drivel we have heard for many years to see a marvellous brain in action actually honours God must get back to my window washing and pamphleteering!(last bit apostate lies) ruthlee
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JB Reezner says:
September 16, 2015 at 5:07 pm
I absolutely agree with everything you just said, Ruth. Your butcher analogy was fantastic! I can’t say it enough: Sure, elders are imperfect, but why would the MAJORITY of them have horrible judgment, be cruel (or at least chauvinistic) toward sisters, and so frequently simply have arrogant, stupid points of view on so many things? And as you have just said, the main answer is an utter lack of education- ANY higher education. I’m not even talking about theological education. I just mean take some damn psychology, logic, science and history classes for Pete’s sake. Although the term is mentioned in the Bible, being “unlettered and ordinary” is NOT something to be proud of for someone charged with the care, education and discipline of vulnerable human beings!
And you mentioned going on a tangent, so now it’s my turn! As I watched the ARC videos, a thought that kept running through my mind from time to time was how WONDERFUL it would have been to have had Justice McClelland for a father! Now, realistically, of course I don’t know what his own belief system is, and, if he has kids, I don’t know what their opinion of him is, lol. Either way, I would love to be able to look back on a childhood full of rational thought and an importance placed on education. (I’m not taking a jab at some goofy JW dad of mine, or anything. My piece-of-garbage non-JW father was out of the picture by the time I was 6.) But don’t let me end on that sour note. I’ll say again, having an upbringing full of logic, reason, and being helped to develop a good BS detector, would have been wonderful!
In fact, though I’m in my mid-40’s, what the heck: Justice McClelland, if you need another kid, I’m up for adoption!
JB Reezner says:
September 16, 2015 at 5:13 pm
I absolutely agree with everything you just said, Ruth. Your butcher analogy was fantastic! I can’t say it enough: Sure, elders are imperfect, but why would the MAJORITY of them have horrible judgment, be cruel (or at least chauvinistic) toward sisters, and so frequently simply have arrogant, stupid points of view on so many things? And as you have just said, the main answer is an utter lack of education- ANY higher education. I’m not even talking about theological education. I just mean take some damn psychology, logic, science and history classes for Pete’s sake. Although the term is mentioned in the Bible, being “unlettered and ordinary” is NOT something to be PROUD OF for someone charged with the care, education and discipline of vulnerable human beings!
And you mentioned going on a tangent, so now it’s my turn! As I watched the ARC videos, a thought that kept running through my mind from time to time was how WONDERFUL it would have been to have had Justice McClelland for a father! Now, realistically, I of course don’t know what his own belief system is, and, if he has kids, I don’t know what their opinion of him is, lol. Either way, I would love to be able to look back on a childhood full of rational thought and an importance placed on education. (I’m not taking a jab at some goofy JW dad of mine, or anything. My piece-of-garbage non-JW father was out of the picture by the time I was 6.) But don’t let me end on that sour note… I’ll say again, having an upbringing full of logic and reason, and being helped to develop a good BS detector, would have been wonderful!
In fact, though I’m in my mid-40’s, what the heck: Justice McClelland, if you need another kid, I’m up for adoption!
Meredith J says:
September 16, 2015 at 2:02 am
It is just amazing some of these dreadful stories. You poor girls. Yes, may God help you somehow in whatever way He can. You have endured so much.
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Ted says:
September 15, 2015 at 4:56 pm
Grace, that slogan could be made snappier, ie, —
“Jacko for prime minister, The master of SPIN
He’ll get you out of the hole your IN.”
Or , “Got himself out of a hole he was in”.etc.
I’m sure you could improve on it if you wished.
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Mary says:
September 15, 2015 at 5:54 pm
Very nicely summarized Cedar. I don’t know how Angus Stewart was able to keep his cool as well as he did. For myself I would have found it difficult not to punch Geoffrey Jackass in the face for all his lying and evading.
Thankfully, his pitiful performance is out there for all to see. And I’m sure it will be GREATLY disturbing to a lot of JWs to view this. Far more than any ‘apostate lies’, the words of one of the GB members could cause far more damage than what they ever dreamed.
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steve stone says:
September 15, 2015 at 6:03 pm
well i just made 4 comments and ZERO went through
so i guess the atheist god MUST B blessing ur website as well john cedars
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JB Reezner says:
September 15, 2015 at 6:46 pm
Lloyd, this was an exquisitely written piece. Very much worth the wait. If I were in your presence, I would LITERALLY pat you on the back, hoping all the while that D was watching from behind the bushes, just absolutely fuming over it.
In this, my first direct comment to you, let me also thank you for this site. I have been enjoying it for months, but now, to be able to be a part of this community for my first time on any such site, has made the experience infinitely more personal and important to me. Thank you, thank you, thank youuuuu.
Now, if I’ve sufficiently buttered you up, maybe I can finish this out with something I wrote last night as your fine writing was bringing the experience of watching the Commission videos back to me. Nobody needs to read it. It’s just something I need to say. Please forgive the absurd length of it…
Watching the many hours of Australian Royal Commission videos on YouTube, I almost felt like I was in a dream. I’m not being metaphorical. I’m describing the actual physical sensation of it. Throughout the entire thing, I was teetering on the edge of disbelief. Out of the blue, our little cult had been drawn out of the shadows, but not just by anybody. No, these people were special. This was a commission that demonstrated levels of sharpness and competence that were vastly beyond my own underdeveloped mental skill set, and nearly beyond my imagination.
Whether it was the woefully inept hired-gun consultant, or the little contingent of buffoon elders, or even a dodgy, silver-tongued Governing Body member himself, none of them were any match for this caring organization of people who also happen to spend much of their lives developing the acute ability to see straight through lies, cheap debating tricks and hollow words. Even peering into someone’s true character -whether they like it or not- is all in a day’s work for these earnest professionals.
But the word that keeps coming to my mind when I think about what I saw is ‘hero’. In this case, I’m thinking of a hero as, sure, someone who saves you. But it’s more than that. They save you because, at that moment, you don’t have the power to save yourself. They can do something that you absolutely cannot do. Without action on their part, you will helplessly continue to suffer- or worse.
All throughout the days of the hearing, time after time, some fumbling fool on the stand would try to be evasive, or make some embarrassing attempt at being crafty, but Senior Counsel Angus Stewart would, in his deceptively timid tone, either reel them back to reality, or just go ahead and slice them to pieces. But, even better, when Stewart’s razor sharp rapier wasn’t puncturing quite deep enough into the hearts of these slugs, the Hon Justice Peter McClellan would step in and drop an ever-loving neutron bomb on the head of whichever fool was asking for it, all the while maintaining the same gentle tone you might hear from someone asking you if you’d like a cup of tea.
True, though they were meaningful to us, the world didn’t shake off of its axis during these hearings. The GB almost certainly devoted their next meeting to talking more about how nice it will be when Jehovah vanquishes these enemies of theirs, rather than talking about how to better protect helpless children. There is still a long way to go. But, for awhile, I got to see the cold, arrogant, heartless organization that had exerted so much power over ME and so many others for so long, have power exerted over THEM by a genuinely superior authority, made up of good people, working in behalf of victims, and in a way, working in behalf of ALL OF US. And it was beautiful. And those good people are truly my heroes.
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HomebytheSea says:
September 15, 2015 at 7:54 pm
JB Reezner
I really enjoyed your post & wholeheartedly agree with you. Stewart & McClellan were an amazing & professional team & I personally believe that their work isn’t done; especially since Stewart has put so much time & energy into deeply understanding the inner workings of the WT. He has a unique ability to be a catalyst for change, & who knows what will be included in the final report. Hopefully it will receive a great deal of international publicity!
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JB Reezner says:
September 15, 2015 at 8:35 pm
Thank you very much, HomebytheSea. I hope that’s true. I hope enough stories, documentaries and newscasts will begin to flood the airwaves so that Witnesses who see the semi-occasional negative story about the Org as an attack by Satan will no longer be able to use that excuse, and will see that they legitimately have a serious problem!
As I watched the video, I was a bit jealous of Australia for having such a Commission. What a powerful way to address such an extremely serious problem. It seems too much to dream that other countries may follow suit one day in such a powerful, public way. Oh, what the heck, I’ll dream it anyway!
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Meredith J says:
September 15, 2015 at 11:37 pm
Thanks JB reezner, you put into words what I was thinking at the time too. Yes, I felt I had to pinch myself as the expose went on. I personally felt vindicated and how amazing it really was to see experts unravel all the layers of cruel policies that had affected so many people. It was like Jesus himself was standing in that room. And how typical it was to see all of the fumbling, lying and evasion going on even after swearing on the Bible and before the Superior Authorities. What a botchup! It just reassured me of why I left.
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Pickled brain says:
September 16, 2015 at 8:49 am
@JB Reezner. As the rest of those here who have commended you on your WELL REASONED POST on the Royal Commission YOU …JB …have shown yourself to be TOO INTELLIGENT to be HOODWINKED by The UTTER RUBBISH of the ‘ ‘NEW LIGHT’ Debacle thrown our way by the 7 CONMEN in BROOKLYN/ Warwick!! Like Most of us here we now are ANGRY,HURT,DEVASTATED that we have been LIED TO By these 7 CHARLATANS who we have Given SO MUCH of our TIME,MONEY & ENERGY!!! WELL Geoffrey,Stephen,Tony,Gerrit,David,Mark& Samuel YOU WILL REAP the WHIRLWIND of the POWER of the INTERNET to EXPOSE YOUR LIES & DECEPTION!!
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JB Reezner says:
September 16, 2015 at 6:53 pm
Thanks, PB!
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EverydayExplorer says:
September 16, 2015 at 3:33 pm
Brilliant, compassionate, heart-warming, intelligent post, JB. Respect to you, sir in USA, from EE here in UK!
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JB Reezner says:
September 16, 2015 at 6:58 pm
Thank you verrry much, EE! It means so much to me to have this NEW international family, my friend.
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Catalina says:
September 15, 2015 at 6:57 pm
anonymous, I understand exactly what you are going through. My family and JW friends were so judgemental I was alone. That’s why I feel they are shallow people. It’s hugs and smiles as long as you don’t say the wrong thing. You are being manipulated. I know how hard it is to get free. You may need to separate from the JW religion at the same time you separate from your husband. You’ll need a job. Try to rent a room. I hope you don’t have young kids. I was frozen, I couldn’t go anywhere. My name wasn’t on our bank accounts. It was a bad experience for me. Good luck. Keep working at getting your freedom. I have a boyfriend now. I doubt I’ll ever get married again. Once you walk away. You’ll never like them again. You’ll be happier.
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anonymous says:
September 16, 2015 at 3:21 am
Catalina, thank you for your encouragement. I am 69 years old and my “children” are all in their 30’s now. Before kids are born is the best time to leave a marriage. Once you have kids, it is so much harder to leave and especially in the JW religion. In other religions, you wouldn’t be judged like ours. But leaving is almost impossible when your husband tells you that if you leave, he will get the kids and that is what he did to me. So I stayed.
He beat me with his fist until my oldest daughter was 5 years old and I am sure it’s because she was old enough to tell the elders as a witness (he was an elder during all this time). Up until then, he always said that nobody would believe me and he was right but she remembers it to this day and she is going to be 38 years old this month.
The Jehovah’s Witness religion is I think one of the worst religions a person could chose to belong to. The people are tricked into it because they think that Witnesses are such “clean” people but once you have been touched by it’s “uncleanness, you don’t have any idea and when you have been victimized by it, it’s too late to leave with dignity.
All I can do now is try and help others who might come to this site and are either studying or on the fence and try and warn them with my personal experiences, like so many others are doing, such as yourself. I was able to help one of my daughters to get out of it, but my son and oldest daughter won’t listen to me. That is the only reason I don’t disassociate myself.
I think the reason why so many Witness children don’t want anything to do with the religion when they grow up, is because they saw the “uncleanness” in their homes when they grew up and they see the hypocrisy and know first hand how it only destroys families and forces them to stay together in loveless marriages.
I really don’t want to be associated with this wicked religion but because of the shunning policy for those who want to disassociate, I am stuck.
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Pickled brain says:
September 16, 2015 at 8:52 am
@Anonymous& Catalina. My HEART Goes out to you both ! You Have Suffered Greatly. No- one can have but ADMIRATION for your INNER STRENGTH & RESOLVE . You are GREATLY VALUED!!
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EverydayExplorer says:
September 16, 2015 at 3:40 pm
I agree with Pickled Brain. Anonymous and Catalina, you are doing such good on this website, because-and-despite of such hurt you have experienced. I value your insights, and your inextinguishable belief in hope and evolution of the human individual. Wow.
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Catalina says:
September 16, 2015 at 5:24 pm
Anonymous, I understand. With JWs you end up stuck and can’t win. I warn people just like you do.
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Catalina says:
September 16, 2015 at 5:26 pm
Thanks to the people on this web site I feel better. Their comments mean a lot and help a lot.
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Queen Elsa says:
September 16, 2015 at 11:15 pm
I’m curious, why didn’t you leave despite his threats? I’m in a somewhat similar situation with young children and I am told the mother gets the kids almost 100% of the time, unless there are extenuating circumstances. Don’t want to pry just wondering…
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anonymous says:
September 17, 2015 at 3:09 am
Queen, I was at the point of committing adultery so I could leave and suffer the consequences (that was when I had my kids). I was that low in my life.
You have to have enough support behind you but you have to be able to confide in people who will help you and I had none of that. Believe me, if I had had anybody to talk to who would have known what I was going through, I would have left.
In the JW religion, you are not able to confide in anybody, even your own family and my mother and father told me when I married him that I could not come home again and I tried going to my brother’s house (before I had kids) and he called my husband and my husband came and got me.
It is so much better to get out if you can before you have children and even then, you will suffer the disgust of those in that religion because without any witnesses to the abuse, they will think you left just because you didn’t want to be under “subjection” like what men like that always spread around.
They will not tell anybody that they are abusive narcissists because narcissists are “perfect” and they are really good liars and people would have believed him over me. I am sure there has to be thousands of JW wives who know exactly what I am talking about.
The JW religion makes people proud and it makes them narcissists. Some may be perfectly fine and humble people, but from my experience, I see most are proud and narcissistic. I was too but not anymore. Now I see what I became and I don’t like what I was.
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anonymous says:
September 17, 2015 at 7:48 am
I didn’t commit adultery but at the time, it went through my mind as a solution.
Catalina says:
September 17, 2015 at 5:45 pm
Queen Elsa, It isn’t always easy for a person to leave. In my case things changed. At the beginning of our marriage my husband was nice to me. He changed, He was alcoholic and he was on downers. Methadone was his favorite. He was very controlling. He had our money and credit card in his name. I had no money and no one to go to. My husband became suicidal after our ten year old son had a brain aneurism and died. We went to a doctor who had us attend a self help group called The Compassionate Friends. It’s for parents who have lost their children to death. Most of the deaths of the children were from drowning in swimming pools. I knew my husband was depressed. The night my husband killed himself I was to intimidated to call the police. I didn’t know my husband was going to kill himself. Earlier that day I ran to my dad when things got scary. My dad sent me back to my husband. My dad didn’t believe me. The day my husband died my family showed up at the hospital after I told them they were disconnecting him because he was brain dead. He died. My brother told me he hadn’t been talking to me because I hadn’t been attending meetings. I was inactive and in good standing. I resent all of them. I resent anyone who judges me in a negative way because I’m the only one who knows what I went through. My family did more harm to their religion by acting the way they did. I feel my family and all JWs HAVE narcissistic, vindictive, personality disorder because of the JW religion. I admit I am bitter. I attend meetings so I can have my family in my life. I only visit them every other month. I feel hate. I needed help and no one helped me. It was the worst time of my life.
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Meredith J says:
September 17, 2015 at 6:08 pm
Good grief Catalina. What a sad situation to go through. You have really been through the ringer. Please accept my heartfelt condolences. The stories coming out of this religion are truly disturbing.
Stirring Awake says:
September 15, 2015 at 7:19 pm
Terrence O’Brien was at our recent Convention (Regional Assembly) and introduced some of the new releases. I searched high and low for him to ask him so very straight lined questions but alas, I was unable to find him :-( Sorry all.
I had such a hard time actually listening to him after hearing his entire testimony at the RC. He even lied during his talk about listening to “lies” and “media reports” about the Witnesses and I just sat there with a blank look of disbelief on my face over some of the things he said. If I had thought about it in advance, or was remotely interested in what he had to say, I would’ve recorded the talk so others could hear it.
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Catalina says:
September 16, 2015 at 12:12 am
Watching the GB lie makes me feel like We
need to get the GB some clown costumes.
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Me says:
September 16, 2015 at 2:45 am
Wrapped around your finger The Police.x
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Me says:
September 16, 2015 at 2:51 am
Spiritual Eleanor rigbys
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Me says:
September 16, 2015 at 3:02 am
Jesus was not available for comment,
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Kat says:
September 16, 2015 at 6:22 am
JB Reezner what a powerful post, I agree whole heartedly with all you said.
Truly was liberating for many of us, I so hope that the victims got some sort of justice out of this, and to show them that people do care.
JW will make what they want from it, those that can be reached will be, those that don’t want to face the reality about their organization will continue to be slaves to the GB and if they like to live that way that is their choice of course, but for those that are trapped in this cult and suffering hopefully this will have the same positive outcome that you have.
Thanks to Cedars for an excellent commentary, and for all the posters you help more than you may realise.
Anonymous my heart goes out to you, you are a giver and you are always trying to encourage others, one day I believe it will be made right.
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minion says:
September 16, 2015 at 6:34 am
For the active JW, if you think the Royal Commission is not real and an attack from Satan – think again.
WT Corp is big on paper trail with directives to the elders, however, they did not have in mind for the public to see them.
If you Google ‘Royal Commission Exhibits for Case Study 29’, You will see first hand the lack of speciality train skill on sensitive humanitarian issues.
Below you will find these tabs on the Royal Commission web page, with tons and tons of PDFs documents from WT Corp.
This should give everyone a different perspective on how you view your elders.
Exhibits for Case Study 29,
July 2015, Sydney Display per page
Exhibit Number – Hearing Day – Tendered By – Witness Names – Date Tendered 29-0001 – Day 147 – Angus Stewart SC – BCB – 27-Jul-15
Statement of [BCB] Document ID: STAT.0603.001.0001_R Document Date: 10-Jul-15
PDF 3.8 MB.
Peace out,
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enuffs enuff says:
September 16, 2015 at 6:53 am
I have a friend who has done a bit of searching through the Corporate Records Office the WT are wealthy alright.
JP Morgan – LIQUID ASSETS MONEY MARKET FUNDhttps://www.jpmorganfunds.com/cm/Satellite?pagename=jpmfVanityWrapper&UserFriendlyURL=fundoverview&cusip=4812C0324
Watch Tower petty cash reserves,
Net Asset Fund $18,575,509,118.83… that’s 18 billion 575 million US dollars as at 9th September 2015
Now… on this site http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1037897/000119312504198395/ddefm14a.htm
Go to the top of your browser to Edit and click ‘Find’.
In that search box copy and paste LIQUID ASSETS MONEY MARKET FUND
Starting from the top of the page, note entry number 7 of that search term…
With a percentage of shares in that class of 7.34% as at 2005
that makes for a valuation of $1,363,442,369… 1.36 billion dollars (2005) in domestic cash management account
Not bad for a ‘non-stock, not-for-profit organization’
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Mary says:
September 16, 2015 at 7:52 am
Somehow, I thought of
Luke 21:1-4: As Jesus looked up, he saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. “Truly I tell you,” he said, “this poor widow has put in more than all the others. All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.”
The fact that the WTS is worth billions yet donate absolutely NOTHING to any charities or even to their own people speaks volumes about their true character.
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kofybean says:
September 16, 2015 at 2:02 pm
I struggle with this realization. The fact that all my life I swore that my volunteer work helped people, but I never helped a soul. I just peddled Watchtowers and Awakes, and shamed those who didn’t believe as I did as being in the “World”.
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JB Reezner says:
September 16, 2015 at 9:11 pm
It’s a hard pill to swallow, kofybean. Reaching the end of your statement, I almost wanted to look back up at the username just to make sure I wasn’t simply reading something that I had written before falling asleep last night. So many of us here are grappling with these nearly identical thoughts. I’m glad we have this forum. I’m glad we all have each other now.
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JB Reezner says:
September 16, 2015 at 10:26 pm
enuffs enuff, the Org is unquestionably worth billions. I’m just not sure your method of calculation is right. My instincts are telling me that the 7.34% refers to the percentage of space that the WTBTS occupied within the “Institutional” CLASS of investors in that particular Money Market Fund, with the fund being made up of many investors of various classes.
But these are the same keen instincts that told me to be a Jehovah’s Witness for 90% of my existence, so believe me, I am COMPLETELY prepared to find out I’m wrong on this.
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ruthlee says:
September 17, 2015 at 1:10 am
that is the grand realisation rl
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Robertperez67 says:
September 16, 2015 at 8:13 am
Who is keeping track of the nepotism within the hierarchy? Is anyone following these family trees? How many of their family members are living off the contribution tit, as the seven? Where is the proper documentary on these matters? Can we get more information on the European countryside “bethel” homes used by the hierarchy? We need to dig up these modern Beth Sarim’s. We’ve all seen the luxury watches. Now how do we get a proper audit. Why do all circuit overseers need luxury sedans and not economical and sensible transportation? Who are they buying construction supplies from for all the building happening? Who sells them the paper/ink and how are they related to anyone at WT? Who sets up the purchase or leasing of any equipment? We need to start connecting these dots or at the very least get enough evidence of a cover up in order to request an investigative audit. We already know they’ve started to make illegal aliens( men knowingly breaking the law of the land) as ministerial servants and elders, the great example they set illegally jumping back and forth betweencountries, disregarding laws of nations. We know they are heavily promoting homeschooling for youth through the Internet, because God knows their uneducated parents couldn’t possibly be teaching them anything secular. We know that Spanish speaking congregations in the U.S are now enforcing a no English amongst friends policy, lest an illegal elder not understand what your saying in a private conversation. There is so much work to do, I hope everyone here takes up a bit of the fight. I will be moving back to Texas soon to get married and will continue the liberation movement from there.
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Pickled brain says:
September 16, 2015 at 8:30 am
@RobertPerez67. VERY VERY IMPRESSED with your ANALYSIS of the Financial Accounting of the GB.what we ALL Want is to KNOW ACCURATELY & IN DETAIL Where do OUR DONATIONS GO !!!!! Most LEGITIMATE CHARITIES DO THIS! IF the Governing Body have nothing to hide , WHAT IS THE PROBLEM???… Ermmmm CHILD ABUSE SETTLEMENTS ??? ….Errr LUXURY LAKESIDE WARWICK BETHEL HQ ??! ..,Ohhhh NEW CIRCUIT OVERSEERS CARS Every 3 YEARS ,ROAD TAX,INSURANCE,PETROL,MAINTENANCE Paid for!!! …. FREE SHOPPING,COOKING,CLEANING,IRONING,DENTISTRY,DOCTORS,OPTICIANS at BETHEL. Governing Body Members pay NO TAXES as they are a REGISTERED CHARITY…HMmmm ???? ANYONE OUT THERE STILL WANTS to DONATE LOADSAAA MONEY to our POOR OLD GB????
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anonymous says:
September 17, 2015 at 6:58 am
@Robert, when it comes to the Governing Body donating money into the contribution boxes, anything they would put into the donation boxes would be money that was given to them in the first place as donations. In order to donate money, you would have to earn it first by a paying job. I can’t imagine the Governing Body or anybody at any Bethel or any of those places putting money into the contribution boxes since they are living off the “tit” of the working brothers and sisters and kids’ allowance money.
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ScotWm says:
September 16, 2015 at 10:08 am
RE: Watchtower liquid assets and petty cash reserves:
We are now seeing corporate greed at its worst. Apparently, hijacking Sophia’s ice cream money hasn’t provided enough money to satisfy the Watchtower accountants.
The Watchtower sideshow geeks are now literally begging their cult followers to give money so that they can “show appreciation for all that Jehovah and his Son have done” for them.
This begging has reached a new low now that the Watchtower is specifically targeting bank accounts, stocks and bonds, real estate, wills, donations via electronic bank transfer, debit card, or credit card, cash, jewelry and other valuable personal property.
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20151115/donations-worldwide-work/
In the illustration, the woman swiping her credit card in the Kingdom Hall lobby is shown wearing a bracelet. Will she soon be asked to put all her jewelry in the collection box?
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Meredith J says:
September 16, 2015 at 2:15 pm
While we’re all singing “Money it’s a hit, don’t give me that dogoodie good b……t” How appropriate.
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JB Reezner says:
September 16, 2015 at 8:11 pm
ScotWm, “sideshow geeks”, sooo well-put. I am truly repulsed by the thought of so many hapless people continuing to be fleeced by the soulless GB creeps. But more than that… I wan’t MY money BACK! Who do I talk to about a refund? I gave “until it hurts” for YEARS (like so many of us here). Ugg, having helped to fund a cult is a hard thing to think about.
Meredith J… YESSSSS!! Welcome to the JWSurvey concert! You’re coming in strong with that relevant offering from Floyd.
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JB Reezner says:
September 16, 2015 at 10:33 pm
enuffs enuff, the Org is unquestionably worth billions. I’m just not sure your method of calculation is right. My instincts are telling me that the 7.34% refers to the percentage of space that the WTBTS occupied within the “Institutional” CLASS of investors in that particular Money Market Fund, with the fund being made up of many investors of various classes.
But these are the same keen instincts that told me to be a Jehovah’s Witness for 90% of my existence, so believe me, I am COMPLETELY prepared to find out I’m wrong on this.
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JB Reezner says:
September 17, 2015 at 4:57 pm
…aaand I mistakenly replied to MYSELF instead of enuffs enuff. I guess I’ll rectify the problem by making the same mistake again with this comment. Moving on…
Stirring Awake says:
September 16, 2015 at 7:22 pm
@enuffs enuff
I’m not sure if it’s just me or not but I don’t get the same information when I follow those links. I don’t see anything identifying WT corp, especially in the JPMorgan link.
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anonymous says:
September 16, 2015 at 8:20 am
Every congregation, every church has a “personality”. Every congregation I have been in, has it’s own personality. Every church has it’s own personality. If the people don’t like the priest or pastor, they probably go to another church if they can. “Pastor” Russell, it seems had a very winning personality but when Russell died, a new personality took over in the form of Rutherford and a lot of people didn’t like him. Then he died, another personality in the form of Knorr took over and then Fred Franz. The Watchtower took on the role of our “parent” in that it seems as if we need their guidance in everything we do or we will get into trouble with God. The Watchtower has a personality and that personality is reflected in it’s followers from it’s writings that are instilled in the rank and file from the writings that they take to heart and believe in whole heartedly.
There are some excellent youtube videos by smakintosh and one that I thought fit the Watchtower’s personality to a Tee and it is called “Narcissist’s Illegitimate Humanity – The False Parent part 1”.
The Watchtower Society calls itself our “mother” and so it takes the role of being our parent. Two elders told me the reason I wasn’t to look at “apostate” web sites was to protect me, and the Society tells us that because they are like a parent who tells a young child not to run into the street, so it is with this thought in mind that I am going to describe the role of a malignant narcissistic parent, taken from that video. This is only a small part. If you have time, you might want to watch the whole video because it is describing the Watchtower Organization.
The malignant narcissist thinks he or she is smarter than God. The malignant narcissist is an illegitimate, false parent. She has cut herself off from what makes and defines true parenthood by not having a conscience, empathy or compassion.
Rather than accepting the role of being a compassionate parent, the malignant narcissist accepts the role enthusiastically and exploits his role to his or her own advantage.
The malignant narcissist puts on the role of firm loving dad or the front of protective mother. Abuse is turned into discipline. Beatings are turned into corrective measures. Psychological torture is turned into exasperated concern. The depravity, vileness, wickedness, darkness and perversity resident in the heart of the malignant narcissist can be packaged and presented as good parenting with little thought and effort.
“The vast majority of the family will succumb to the deception and the narcissist knows this.
The narcissist stepped into the role of parenthood secretly by the side door. The narcissist was never and will never be considered a genuine, legitimate mother in the eyes of the “truth”. Because there is no “truth” in the wicked woman posing as a parent, those who walk in the “truth” will come to recognize this. Those who prefer to remain in darkness will not.”
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Robertperez67 says:
September 16, 2015 at 10:37 am
Spot on anonymous- As a life long witness I’ve learned that if you can convince someone that you have a message for them , directly from the almighty of the universe himself, there is power in that. No one here can deny that religion equals big influence and big influence equals big business and big business equals big money.
I remember an episode of House MD where this Sherlockian diagnosticion who happens to be irreligious is confronted with a special patient. This patient happened to be a young priest who claimed to be in communication with God himself and had conversations with him. Dr.House immediately starts jotting down these symptoms and one of his fellow doctors tells him that there is nothing wrong with that, the man is just religious. Dr.House with a factual tone lets him know that you speaking to God is religious, but God speaking back means your either dilussional or a scam artist.
Anyone can cast Gods voice as their own, by making the Bible say something that it really doesn’t and claim the “interpretation” is straight from God. Never you mind that it contradicts his “never changing” word. There are two types of religious scam artist, those that know that they are scamming others(the sinister category) and the type who have fooled themselves first. Ill let you be the judge as to which describes the GB best. Anyone of us who is an ardent follower of the Bible, God and his son Jesus can develop a strong desire that requires other people to be in agreement as to our “interpretation” of Gods word. We can easily start to push our view of the world as Gods view of the world and if anyone disagrees with us, we can simply yell out “God spoke to me and he wants us to do that!” When in reality its just us trying to enforce our way.
I’m of a different sort, I hear Gods voice everyday. I hear it on repeat on an old answering machine message called the Bible and although the message isn’t always clear and I get frustrated by this fact, I find I’m always missing him. Perhaps its nostalgia of what life was like when I was still a full part of the Borg collective and living in a dream world. One thing I’m positive of though, is that the tone of love and acceptance has started to ring out louder when not drowned out by the chants of ending the world and hipocratically judging fellow sinners. By stepping away from the head of the congregation I have found Gods unique voice again. I don’t care how many times you read Gods word as a witness, read it again, with a humble agenda free mind, perhaps you’ll be meeting him for the first time.
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anonymous says:
September 16, 2015 at 6:56 pm
@Robert, who am I supposed to be meeting, Jesus or Jehovah? For fifty years, I prayed to what I thought was God and I really believed so it is not right of you to imply that I didn’t read the Bible with a humble agenda. I think what you need to do is read the Bible again too but not assume that it is God inspired and maybe you will be meeting the real Jehovah for the first time and you may not like that God as much as you thought you did. What I do now, is read the Bible and really think and meditate on what I am reading and that is why I am not so enthralled by Him anymore.
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Ocma says:
September 17, 2015 at 4:19 pm
I’m with you anonymous – I just don’t like ‘god’, I don’t care for ‘him’ one bit. Supposed god of love, and he won’t just fix things, because he has a point to prove? ‘god’ can jog on.
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Meredith J says:
September 16, 2015 at 8:55 pm
Over the years I have come to the conclusion that the Witnesses always tried to overshadow Jesus somehow. He was always presented as an inferior being to the One True God. Every other religion believes in a Trinity. I was originally brought up a Catholic. We were always taught that Jesus was a human manifestation of God. I don’t understand about these things as I do not trust anything the Watchtower Society told me anymore and that includes the correct name for God. I call Him Father now. I am not sure about anything else.
I never use that name Jehovah anymore as it reminds me too much of the prison my family and I were in for 17 years. Of course what we call God is very personal but somehow we have to realise the importance of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior and His Father, Almighty God and His Holy Spirit. That concept sounds blasphemous to a Witness but to Christians it is not.
I also threw out all my Watchtower literature and I now own a King James Bible. It’s not as helpful as the Watchtower one but at least I know it is pretty trustworthy as it has been in use for hundreds of years and has helped many people. It was also the original version that the Bible Students used. Anyway, each to his own ideas. They are just mine and I would not expect anybody to quote me and I wouldn’t criticise anyone for their beliefs or anything like that. That is just how I get by spiritually.
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ruthlee says:
September 17, 2015 at 1:18 am
well meredith that is the conclusion i have come to with a prayerful and sincere intense reading of the Bible i too blaspheme the tower but not the Bible. maybe if what the original church fathers tried to explain is correct then for those who dont want heaven to quote dear ol AC/DC “Hell aint a bad place to be” ha watch this space rl
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Meredith J says:
September 17, 2015 at 2:07 pm
Thank God ruthlee the Bible won out in our case. It was the only tangible thing that the Watchtower actually had that was fair dinkum.
JB Reezner says:
September 17, 2015 at 3:08 pm
Did RUTHLEE just quote AC/DC?? I think I might have to go back to believing that these ARE the last days!! A++ to you, RL! :)
@anonymous: YES to that. I think Step 1 should be: Accept that our experience in the Org teaches us that we (like most human beings) are capable of being COMPLETELY duped into plugging into a reality (JW doctrine) that actually has no place in the real world.
Step 2: Drop ALL assumptions. Don’t assume that being in the Org caused us to simply be one little step away from the REAL truth. Go all the way back to square one and restart with zero presumptions. Look at all of the available facts and viewpoints with an open mind. (Even explore viewpoints from people that we had always been taught were haughty, god-rejecting, egomaniacs, like scientists (a belief that is actually untrue to the point of being profoundly ironic). If you end up with a stronger faith and a modified set of less-harmful religious views, fine. But, if you end up with a satisfying, tangible-evidence-based view of life, well that can be good too.
Did I say that delicately enough, folks? Can I stay? No? Okay, I’ll pack my things… I’m taking the dog. I’m leavin’ the the kids.
Meredith J says:
September 18, 2015 at 12:07 am
Of course you can stay jb Reezner. You’re the life of the party.
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JB Reezner says:
September 18, 2015 at 8:25 am
Thanks, Meredith J. But I’ve already started a new life with the dog. And we’ve both turned to Scientology for all of life’s real answers…
JB Reezner says:
September 19, 2015 at 7:46 am
Okay, I’m back. It turns out that I couldn’t AFFORD to be one of those.
Ted says:
September 16, 2015 at 8:58 am
Jacko was fortunate, The OZ inquiry was non adversarial,
unlike a criminal trial where straight Yes or No answers are
demanded. Here Jack the Lad was allowed a measure of
wriggle room, of which he took full advantage.
If Angus Stewart had have cross examined Jack Flash in
a criminal court, he would have exposed him. Like a
Streaker at a football game.
Nevertheless, Mr, Stewart despite being constrained by the
protocol of the inquiry, did a great job and caught Jacko
with his trousers down on a number of occasions.
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Gorbatchov says:
September 16, 2015 at 9:41 am
Cedars,
Thanks for this great analyze. One proof these organization is not the one it claims to be and the proof of the poor situation of the organization and it’s leaders.
Gorby
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Free Thinker says:
September 16, 2015 at 10:59 am
Enuffs Enuff. Can you show the connection between the links and the Watchtower. It may be me but I cant see it.
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MimiLove says:
September 16, 2015 at 12:20 pm
I can’t see it either. I would love to show this to certain family!
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JB Reezner says:
September 16, 2015 at 11:00 am
Here’s something for the folks thinking of funny T-shirt designs: http://pixady.com/image/7oy/
Due credit is given for Vincent Deporter’s BRILLIANT artwork, but this design is just for a laugh. To put it on a REAL T-shirt would require his actual permission, of course. :)
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Cedars says:
September 16, 2015 at 11:27 am
Love it! Awesome job! :)
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JB Reezner says:
September 16, 2015 at 11:56 am
Hey, thanks!
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Grace says:
September 16, 2015 at 3:12 pm
JB,
I love it! That head could have so many of his quotes to it. The only problem is it would make him more famous, laughably famous but still famous.
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JB Reezner says:
September 16, 2015 at 6:22 pm
Thank you, Grace! I know what you mean. But Ooo how nice it would be if ALL the GB members became VERY famous for being heartless, lying, deluded and dangerous cult leaders! Pleeease let that happen in our lifetime.
anonymous says:
September 16, 2015 at 6:46 pm
I also love what you did with the cartoon. Mr. Deporter perfectly captured how crooked Jackson’s face is too. It seems to me that Jackson’s face comes from two men who are related but with one side of his face from one person and the other side from another person.
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JB Reezner says:
September 16, 2015 at 10:49 pm
Thank you very much, anonymous. I am also verrry impressed with Mr. Deporter’s artwork. To me, it seems like he somehow captured Jackson’s smugness, while ALSO capturing his discomfort from the questioning. Genius! I wish I could draw like that. I can barely draw a stick figure, lol.
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ruthlee says:
September 18, 2015 at 12:24 pm
hi jb yes i did quote AC/DC and if you want blood you got it(conscience) they have kicked us in the teeth too long even a long walk over you. We have been considered as riff raff and if you question any doctrine you will be shot down in flames .So if these dudes carry on as they are i see them on the highway to hell with hells bells ringing in our ears so mate have a drink on me await our landslide (victory) and this girls got rhythm ruth lee
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JB Reezner says:
September 18, 2015 at 5:06 pm
my..mind..is..blown….. RuthLee, you just made my day with that! I humbly surrender from the vicious AC/DC carpet-bombing sortie you just flew over my head, lol. Love it!
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Tara says:
September 18, 2015 at 7:46 pm
Girl you got a whole lotta Rosie and If You want Blood, The Jack will be Shot Down In Flames. You know Money talks and it’s a Long Way to the Top so Let there be Rock! So keep a Stiff Upper Lip and don’t let em Walk all Over You……
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ruthlee says:
September 19, 2015 at 2:14 pm
ha ha ha ha peace and love tara and jb and all
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kofybean says:
September 16, 2015 at 1:58 pm
Un-freaking-believable.
The Christmas/Bday part and the self appointed GB part had my jaw dropping.
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pearlsB4swine says:
September 16, 2015 at 3:36 pm
I was glued to my tablet, not getting any work done through all of testimony of Jackson, Spinks, Obrien, and Toole.
If they made a trailer for case 29 the JWs, it could have been borrowed from Waynes World “you’ll laugh, you’ll cry, you’ll hurl objects and swear words at the TV.”
Did help me excorsize any remaining doubts that they could be God’s Org though.
So thanks ARC,
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Meredith J says:
September 16, 2015 at 4:28 pm
I couldn’t help noticing Geoffrey Jackson’s denial about being aware of any of these cases which the Royal Commission brought up. He was very aloof in saying that he had only been a member of the GB for 10 years. Surely, he was aware of inherent problems and cruel doctrines. He barely touched on the fact that some changes had been made. The changes were as effective as trying to move a rock with a feather.
Because there are some Witnesses now using this site. I think more than when I first started coming here not all that long ago, and also because I know how to do it. Some are probably aware of these videos but I would like to put links on here that show that Watchtower has been very much aware of this going on for a long long time. So all this innocent blurb he goes on with is just a lie.
Check these out recorded between 2002 and 2003.
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Grace says:
September 16, 2015 at 7:05 pm
Meredith,
I watched that story too only a couple of weeks ago. At the time of it airing, I was still totally in & didn’t watch anything like that.
What a great introductory to the ARC that would have been. Almost 10 years on & the story hasn’t changed one bit.
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Meredith J says:
September 16, 2015 at 9:03 pm
Yes, Grace. Nothing has changed. It will be interesting to see whether anything will actually change. You’ll get your time to have your say soon. I’ll bet when that day comes, you will be so shocked that you actually got to speak about it to people who would take you seriously.
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Meredith J says:
September 16, 2015 at 11:43 pm
I had seen an article in the local newspaper about one of these courtcases. I got curious and I took this paper to the meeting to show one of the elders. I asked him about it and he said he did not know anything about it. Then a sister I showed it to told me that I should not bring that to the kingdom hall because it’s content was very negative for Jehovah’s Organisation. I innocently and obediently put it away but my curiosity remained as to why nobody knew anything about it. Not that long later this turned up on a current affairs show. And that was the beginning of the end for me. I scoured the internet for information and what I found I could not believe.
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Grace says:
September 17, 2015 at 7:07 pm
I know, I sometimes think that the thought of being able to freely speak about what had happened all those years ago & not bottle it up because it’s ‘negative talk’ just seems so surreal to me. It will be interesting to see what their thoughts on the matter are. Apparently going by the letter, I will get to sit with one of the Commissioners. I actually hope that it will be Commissioner Milroy.
Whoever it may be, I will let you all know how it went. May next year seems like ages away.
JB Reezner says:
September 17, 2015 at 10:01 pm
Thank you for posting this video, Meredith J. It’s tragic that the Org has been so effective at keeping its members so scared of “outside” sources of information. How many of us would’ve stayed as long as we did if we simply would’ve KNOWN what was really going on in our organization? You have my admiration for rejecting a restrictive mindset and finding a path to freedom.
I also found it interesting that at 6:40 in this 13-year-old video the headline reads, “Pell accused of child sex”, referring to now-Cardinal George Pell, who has ALSO been feeling the heat of our Royal Commission heroes very recently. I am really beginning to love Australia.
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JB Reezner says:
September 17, 2015 at 10:06 pm
Thank you for posting this video, Meredith J. It’s tragic that the Org has been so very effective at keeping its members scared of “outside” sources of information. How many of us would’ve stayed as long as we did if we simply would’ve KNOWN what was really going on in our organization? You have my admiration for rejecting a restrictive mindset and finding a path to freedom.
I also found it interesting that at 6:40 in this 13-year-old video the headline reads, “Pell accused of child sex”, referring to now-Cardinal George Pell, who has ALSO been feeling the heat of our Royal Commission heroes very recently. I am really beginning to love Australia.
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Meredith J says:
September 18, 2015 at 4:18 am
Yes, that’s right. Very observant JB Reezner. You know how I ended up finding out more at the time? I just googled the Watchtower and all this stuff came up. It was simple.
I reckon we were one of the only families in Australia who managed to watch it. I could not convince anybody else of what was happening except our daughter and son in law. Our son was getting married at the time but we didn’t end up having that conversation with him.
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Meredith J says:
September 16, 2015 at 4:29 pm
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Tara says:
September 16, 2015 at 5:17 pm
I am curious as to what happened to the elders who gave testimony. Did they go back to the cong. and pick up as normal or have they been reproved, df’d, SHUNNED – even though that doesn’t happen 😉 marked or what? Have any in the cong. spoken to the media?
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enuffsenuff says:
September 16, 2015 at 6:00 pm
Some have asked where is the the link to the money that WT has in my earlier post. Here is the link to the relevant page. Just below that I have cut and pasted the detail but this post facility does not allow for a full screen format of everything to see. Give that link a try if you are interested. Notice that the data is of 2005- 10 years ago. I haven’t found yet (never enuff time) the current status. Did they lose money in the 2008/9 financial crash for example, my guess if they did it wasn’t serious, they may have substantially increased their cash since then.
One thing I did notice is that all KH’s in OZ applied for Aust Business Numbers (ABN) on the SAME day in 2009. For a while I didn’t understand why they needed an ABN?? Charity status and all that. Then I saw why. It was to claim the GSTax, for all expenditure on each hall. Sounds good, charity, yes, why not? But think about it. The Cong doesn’t own the hall, even though they paid for it, the Cong pays all the maintenance and expenditures… but the GST when recovered doesn’t go back to the Cong it goes to the WTC as the owners and holders of the charity. The Cong pays the tax but the WTC gets it back. Isn’t this another case of religion riding on the back of the wild beast, spoken in Rev 18?
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1037897/000119312504198395/ddefm14a.htm
JPMORGAN LIQUID ASSETS MONEY MARKET FUND INSTITUTIONAL
WATCHTOWER BIBLE & TRACT SOCIETY OF PENNSYLVANIA
ATTN TREASURERS OFFICE DOMESTIC CASH MANAGEMENT
25 COLUMBIA HTS
BROOKLYN NY 11201-1300
Reply
Stirring Awake says:
September 16, 2015 at 7:27 pm
Just saw this post after replying to the other one – I still can’t see any figures matching with WT :-( Any chance you could post/upload a screenshot somewhere online and then provide us the link to the screenshot?
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 16, 2015 at 6:45 pm
I just have to test something. If this looks like gibberish text, then disregard it. Sorry to post the same thing again. If there’s an image, then it’s a better method of posting it than what I used earlier. I’m STILL new here, lol. Okay, enjoy (unless nothing is there):
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 16, 2015 at 6:49 pm
Okay, I have my answer. Nothing is there. Story of my life, haha..
Reply
enuffsenuff says:
September 16, 2015 at 7:32 pm
Hi stirring awake, I don’t have the where withal to post a screen shot somewhere. Did the link I sent not work? I may be able to “talk” you through this if you can go to the link.
Reply
enuffsenuff says:
September 16, 2015 at 7:35 pm
I see the problem Stir awake, I just looked at the link and the entry for WT is hard to find do this
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1037897/000119312504198395/ddefm14a.htm
Go to the top of your browser to Edit and click ‘Find’.
In that search box copy and paste LIQUID ASSETS MONEY MARKET FUND
Starting from the top of the page, note entry number 7 of that search term…
If you follow this instruction slowly you should find it
Reply
enuffsenuff says:
September 16, 2015 at 7:50 pm
A comma every now and then is helpful
I see the problem Stir awake, I just looked at the link and the entry for WT is hard to find, do this
Click on the linkhttp://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1037897/000119312504198395/ddefm14a.htm
Then, go to firefox, google whatever
Go to the top of your browser to Edit and click ‘Find’.
In the search box that will appear, copy and paste the words “LIQUID ASSETS MONEY MARKET FUND” from this email if need be
then
Starting from the top of the page, click the arrows, and note entry number 7 of that search term…
If you follow this instruction slowly you should find it
Reply
MimiLove says:
September 17, 2015 at 8:24 am
Thank you for posting how to find it. I am in shock and trying to search for more but they seem to have so many entities it seems impossible.
Reply
Doc Obvious says:
September 17, 2015 at 9:08 am
Over the years of studying the Jehovah’s Witnesses, I find the leadership incorporates the following psychological defense mechanisms to distract from their reality: Deflection, Compensation, Sublimation, Repression, and Compartmentalization.
Compensation is used when the Watchtower organization had problems with Child abuse and then creates a web site full of child videos and other children publications. They try
to distract people from the real issues.
Deflection is used when a Governing Body member blames the LGBT community of child abuse in their early 1980’s Awake magazine and in reality it is they themselves that have a bigger problem. Or, when a Governing Body member blames the parents for dropping their college aged children to a university and the local elders do not want to do shepherding calls on college Jehovah’s Witnesses. This mechanism is used over-and-over again with the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Compartmentalization is used when the Governing Body wants to distance themselves from the other sheep and tries to display superior moral standards than the branch office and the elders underneath the branch office.
Repression is when Governing Body member Geoffrey Jackson states that it appears to be the case when asked that the organization is not immune to the problems of child abuse. Almost as if Geoffrey Jackson cannot believe how bad it has really gotten and does not want to come to grips with reality.
Sublimation is when Watchtower does not know where to begin in creating a policy to protect children so they concentrate all their efforts in their construction work that never ends. And they think people will again shift their focus away from bad stuff and only to good stuff.
Watchtower needs a good psychotherapist to work on these items. All these behaviors are learned behaviors from childhood and can be reduced. These types of behaviors cause people to avoid you as not accepting responsibility. The Watchtower needs to learn more productive and responsible behaviors and to stop acting out on the juvenile behaviors.
Reply
Kat says:
September 17, 2015 at 9:15 am
The GB will never give up their control, that is basically what its about.
Reply
rob says:
September 17, 2015 at 10:15 am
What is said to the rank and file by the GB: Be humble, ensure to do your personal study using watchtower publications, do more in the congregation to gain God’s approval, preach more to gain God’s approval, give more money to gain God’s approval, and always wait on Jehovah (when you have doubts or if you see something that is not right).
What the GB probably says behind closed doors – Keep them humble – no college education and they can only read our publications. Keep them distracted by keeping them busy busy busy working for us, and make sure that we get as much money from them as possible. Keep them distracted by talking about ourselves and how wonderful we are and how we are building building building and most importantly don’t let them question anything and make sure that if they do question that they are told to wait on Jehovah and if they don’t comply with this we must expel and shun them.
We must keep control (fist stomps on podium).
Reply
Ted says:
September 17, 2015 at 10:49 am
Jackson refused to stand by the claim, that’s repeated endlessly
In the WT, and that every JW believes to be true. “That they are
the one and only channel on earth, that God is using”, Jackson
said. “That I think would seem to be quite PRESUMTUOUS.
It’s one thing to make overblown and pretentious claims to those
initiated in the group thinking and rituals, at the KH, But in the
setting of a Royal Commission and in the presence of clear and
analytical minds, such boastful language, would come across as
“Foolish and Deluded”. ( As Lloyd describes ).
Heaven forbid that they should be seen as “Presumptuous”.
I was there all the years preceding 1975, when they were
commending bros, for selling their houses and using the money
to help them pioneer. Then when it ended in bitter disappointment
It was the bros, who were branded as presumptuous, for running
ahead of “God’s Exclusive Channel”. When all the time it was
they who were dictating the pace.
I knew a brother, who during that period, sold his house and
moved into a caravan with his wife and 2 children. Like many
others he ended up with no house and very little money.
tragically he died shortly after 75, he was only in his early 50s.
Whether his death was due to grief or disappointment or the
predicament he was in, I don’t know ! But I do Know for certain.
he was deceived by a presumptuous false prophet. Deut,18:22
Reply
ruthlee says:
September 18, 2015 at 12:34 pm
ted i must comment my family did this and we ended on a white trash site i cant go into too much detail but my innocence was torn away from me by that decision you can read into that. all for the good of this Organisation. i bear many scars if i get to write my story i will expose all the tragedy of the 1975 fiasco and how it impacted me for the rest of my life ruthlee
Reply
anonymous says:
September 17, 2015 at 12:04 pm
@Ted, I was there too. In the 1960’s, here in the United States, you could buy a brand new house for $10,000.00. My husband and I were married in 1967 and even then, you could buy a new house pretty cheap. We rented and he refused to buy a house because he refused to put any money in the bank for a down payment because he wasn’t going to have any money in the bank when “Armageddon” came so he wasted every penny we were ever to save on everything from new cars to new suits for himself. Then when Armageddon didn’t happen in 1975 and people were mad and left, the Society later said that it was all the rank and file’s fault because the rank and file ran ahead and to this day, my husband insists that the Society never even implied that Armageddon was happening in 1975. But I remember counting down the months in the Kingdom Ministry starting in the late 1960’s.
By the late 1970’s when we finally were able to buy a house, a new house was $50,000.00 here. When those people sold their houses in the 1960’s, they sold them for almost nothing in comparison to ten years later. If those people wanted to buy a house like the ones they “gave” away in the 1960’s, they would have had to pay about five times what they sold it for.
I never did have that kind of faith in what the Society said and I thought it was wrong for them to do that because the Bible says that nobody knows the day or hour, not even the son and so even though the thought of it did scare me, I thought it was presumptuous for them to do that. In those days, you were showing a “lack of faith” if you even suggested that Armageddon might not come in 1975.
It goes to show what kind of mental power a cult has over people when they don’t use common sense. The Bible actually has a lot of good advice that way when it says not to put your trust in men.
Reply
Meredith J says:
September 18, 2015 at 12:32 am
anonymous that story is typical and it happened to us too. We were living in an area where we were too far away from the nearest kingdom hall. The visiting Circuit Overseer at the time. told the people we were both studying with that we needed to move closer to the hall in order to become baptised Witnesses. We had just built our own house ourselves and my husband had a good job in the local Post Office.
We ended up selling our house and getting nothing for it as it was during a time of economic downturn. We ended up renting for 23 years. My husband quit his job which put us into an inferior position financially as he attempted to do cleaning and working with brothers. What a terrible mistake that was? We ended up losing so much money and getting into debt which we carried for quite a number of years.
The endless conventions didn’t help and all the time we were boxed into a state where any jobs that my husband could get would not be suitable somehow. The Watchtower sent us broke and we were behind the 8ball for many years. I saw so many brothers and sisters getting into debt because they thought Armageddon was coming. And I remember those talks about how stupid brothers were to run ahead of Jehovah’s Organisation in 1975. They were still preaching the same idea just without a date. We were told to live like it was tomorrow. My goodness, how irresponsible.
A couple of years later a different Circuit Overseer announced that people no longer had to move from where we lived but that it was okay if they were able to attend the occasional meeting. My blood boiled. We had lost our house over that ruling which was so flippantly changed. I have to say though during that time, we were always able to put a roof over our heads and there was always enough food on the table to feed us. Jesus Christ was true to his promise of looking after us. He never broke his word.
Reply
Ted says:
September 17, 2015 at 1:14 pm
“To call woman the weaker sex is a libel; it is man’s injustice to woman. If by strength is meant brute strength, then, indeed, is woman less brute than man. If by strength is meant moral power, then woman is immeasurably man’s superior. Has she not greater intuition, is she not more self-sacrificing, has she not greater powers of endurance, has she not greater courage? Without her, man could not be. If nonviolence is the law of our being, the future is with woman. Who can make a more effective appeal to the heart than woman?”
Dedicated to Anonymous, Catalina, Ruthlee, Kat, Grace, queen Elsa,
Meredith j, and to my wife. And all the other wonderful ladies who
encourage us with their comments on this site.
The above quotation was plagiarised by me from Mahatma Gandhi.
But I agree 100% with the sentiments expressed.
Reply
ruthlee says:
September 20, 2015 at 10:15 am
GOD bless you Ted you have a voice of wisdom and kindness i like to read your posts blessings ruthlee
Reply
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← David Splane explains the overlapping generation teaching (without actually explaining it)
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12 things we learned from Geoffrey Jackson’s testimony at the Royal Commission
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Posted on September 14, 2015
Geoffrey Jackson's appearance before the Royal Commission left many questions unanswered
Geoffrey Jackson’s appearance before the Royal Commission left many questions unanswered
If you are one of the many current and former Jehovah’s Witnesses who spent much of last month glued to your screen watching the Australian Royal Commission into child abuse, likely you are still dumbfounded by the testimony of one person in particular: Governing Body member Geoffrey Jackson.
Senior Watchtower officials did their very best to stop Jackson from appearing, dismissing his relevance to the commission and insinuating that he was only involved in “translation.” Their efforts at insulating their leader drew the ire of Senior Council Angus Stewart, who accused Australian branch coordinator Terrence O’Brien of deliberately trying to mislead the commission over Jackson’s role.
Finally the commission saw through the shenanigans and Jackson was faced with an official summons to appear – a summons carrying legal ramifications if he failed to show. In the end, despite being in Australia (to tend to his sick father), Jackson opted to give his appearance by video link – to the disappointment of many who would have like to have seen him appear in person.
Wearing a dark three-piece suit and stripey tie, and seated at a table in what appeared to be an office conference room, Jackson had an air of confidence about him. He addressed the judge and senior council respectfully, but any humility seemed strained – especially in the context of some of the more defiant and pious expressions that were to follow.
Overall, Jackson’s testimony was a masterclass in evading the torrent of difficult questions unleashed upon him. Angus Stewart and Judge McClellan bombarded him with topics as diverse as corporal punishment, the two witness rule, the role of women, and shunning.
Jackson ducked and swerved any difficult, potentially incriminating questions with the finesse of an Aussie-rules footballer, albeit without possessing the corresponding physique. “That’s not my field” became his default retort, and if he didn’t like the question he wasn’t above modifying it in his answer. Even outright lies were deployed by the Governing Body member in his eagerness to get past the full-time whistle unscathed.
It’s difficult to do justice to the full day-long exchange, but I have taken the liberty of compiling a handy list of 12 key pieces of testimony given by Jackson that were either unusual, revealing, or downright misleading.
If you would like to examine Geoffrey Jackson’s testimony for yourself, you can do so in PDF form on this link, or using the video playlist at the foot of this article.
1. Ordinary Jehovah’s Witnesses can now officially acknowledge the problem of child abuse (at least in theory)
01 Jackson
As recently as February, Jackson’s co-Governing Body member Stephen Lett dismissed criticism of the organization’s child abuse record as “apostate-driven lies and dishonesties.” The morning worship video in which these comments were made was responded to by yours truly in the following YouTube video (skip to 03:10 to see Lett’s comments)…
As I commented at the time, rather than being “lies and dishonesties” the criticism of Watchtower’s child abuse mishandling was fully warranted, not least by the multi-million dollar judgments in both the Candace Conti and Jose Lopez verdicts of 2012 and 2014 respectively.
Still more recently, another Governing Body member, Tony Morris, indulged in an extraordinary rant on the issue of child abuse in the July 2015 JW Broadcasting episode. Not only did Morris attempt to scapegoat gay people as culpable for child molestation – he also claimed that the organization was proud of its reputation regarding child abuse and were even ahead of the game in that issue compared to the “somewhat naive” secular authorities.
Little over a month later, and under serious questioning by the senior council of a Royal Commission, Morris’ colleague Geoffrey Jackson sang an entirely different tune (bold is mine)…
Stewart: Do you recognise, Mr Jackson ‐ and in asking this question, let me make it clear, I’m not suggesting it is peculiar to the Jehovah’s Witness organisation, there are many, many organisations in this position ‐ but do you accept that the Jehovah’s Witness organisation has a problem with child abuse amongst its members?
Jackson: I accept that child abuse is a problem right throughout the community and it’s something that we’ve had to deal with as well.
Stewart: Do you accept that the manner in which your organisation has dealt with allegations of child sexual abuse has also presented problems?
Jackson: There have been changes in policies over the last 20 or 30 years, where we’ve tried to address some of those problem areas, and by the fact that they have changed the policy would indicate that the original policies weren’t perfect.
Stewart: And you accept, of course, that your organisation, including people in positions of responsibility, like elders, is not immune from the problem of child sexual abuse?
Jackson: That appears to be the case.
So there you have it. Jehovah’s Witnesses can now officially speak openly about their religion having a problem with child sexual abuse because, according to a member of the Governing Body, “that appears to be the case.”
Of course, whether there would be judicial ramifications anyway for speaking openly about child abuse in such an Orwellian organization is another matter entirely. Don’t expect “but Geoffrey Jackson said it’s true” to be a bullet-proof defense if you find yourself bundled into a backroom by the elders for mentioning the child abuse problem in a comment at the kingdom hall.
Stewart then went on to ask Jackson a line of questions that seemed expressly designed to counter the preposterous “apostate-driven lies and dishonesties” claim by Stephen Lett…
Stewart: Do you accept, Mr Jackson, that many of the efforts that are being made by different people and organisations to highlight the issue of child sexual abuse and try and find solutions are genuine efforts to improve the situation?
Jackson: I do accept that, and that’s why I’m happy to testify.
Stewart: And that such efforts are not necessarily an attack on your organisation or its system of beliefs?
Jackson: We understand that, too.
Stewart: You described earlier in your testimony that the work of this Royal Commission is beneficial. Do you accept, then, that the Royal Commission’s efforts are genuine and well‐intentioned?
Jackson: I certainly do. And that’s why we came in to the Royal Commission hoping that collectively something would come forward that would help us as well as everybody else.
Stewart: Would you disagree, then, with anyone who said that the efforts to highlight and deal with child sexual abuse in the Jehovah’s Witness church are engaging in apostate lies?
Jackson: I guess that’s a broad question, because sometimes those who make these accusations make many other accusations as well. But let me assure you, the person making the accusation is not the main thing. The main thing is: is there some basis to the accusation. And if there is some way that we could improve, the Governing Body is always interested in seeing how we can refine our policies. You see, Mr Stewart, could I just emphasise, as a religion, two very strong things we feel. One is, we try to keep a high moral standard. Secondly, there is love among the organisation. So we want to treat victims in a loving way.
That last response from Jackson was a typical example of his evasive tactics whenever an awkward question was put to him. Stewart’s question about apostate lies was direct and relevant, and answerable with a simple “yes” or “no.” But, knowing full well a “yes” OR “no” would be incriminating in different ways, Jackson dismissed the question itself as “broad” and spewed bluster about “many other accusations” leveled by apostates that clearly had nothing to do with the question.
Stewart wasn’t asking for Jackson to comment on his general observations about apostates, he was asking whether he believed scrutiny of child abuse within the organization by itself was tantamount to apostasy. As regards THAT specific question, no real answer was forthcoming. Jackson merely self-congratulated the Governing Body for its eagerness to refine its policies, uphold a “high moral standard,” and “treat victims in a loving way.”
Such fobbing off of an important question with pure bluster may get a politician through an awkward interview with a journalist, but Jackson was giving testimony on behalf of the Governing Body before a Judge at a Royal Commission. His sloppy tap dancing around difficult questions in such a serious forum will not have gone unnoticed, as I will highlight again later.
2. Jehovah’s Witnesses AREN’T allowed to spank their kids
02 Jackson
Like many who were raised as Witnesses I was spanked by my parents (using a belt, as I recall), and this spanking was ALWAYS justified on religious grounds using the bible and Watchtower publications.
So you can imagine my astonishment (no doubt shared by many current and former Witnesses) when Jackson repeatedly denied that Witnesses endorse corporal punishment. (Corporal punishment is defined by one dictionary as a “punishment administered by an adult (as a parent or a teacher) to the body of a child ranging in severity from a slap to a spanking.”)
The following are quotes from Watchtower publications that are at least permissive of corporal punishment, if not openly endorsing it (bold is mine)…
“Of course, children are children, and some are prone to be contrary, even wayward. (Genesis 8:21) What can parents do? ‘Foolishness is tied up with the heart of a boy; the rod of discipline is what will remove it far from him,’ says the Bible. (Proverbs 22:15) Some view this as harsh treatment that is out-of-date. Actually, the Bible is against violence and abuse of any sort. The ‘rod,’ though at times literal, represents parental authority that is administered firmly but lovingly and appropriately out of concern for the children’s eternal welfare.—Hebrews 12:7-11.” – w06 4/1 pp. 9-10
“Different children require different kinds of discipline. Some are not ‘corrected by mere words.’ For them, the occasional punishment administered for disobedience may be lifesaving. (Proverbs 17:10; 23:13, 14; 29:19) A child, though, should understand why he is being punished. ‘The rod and reproof are what give wisdom.’ (Proverbs 29:15; Job 6:24) Moreover, punishment has boundaries. ‘I shall have to chastise you to the proper degree,’ said Jehovah to his people. (Jeremiah 46:28b) The Bible in no way endorses angry whippings or severe beatings, which bruise and even injure a child.—Proverbs 16:32.” – “Family Happiness” book (1996), page 60
Certainly it must be acknowledged that some of the sentiments in more recent publications to the effect that “not all children need physical punishment” (w06 11/1 p.5) might be construed as a U-turn from past instructions on the matter, at least in part. A footnote to the 2002 Draw Close to Jehovah book even says: “Similarly, ‘the rod’ of parental authority suggests loving guidance, not harsh or brutal punishment.” (p.101)
But a specific, unequivocal condemnation of corporal punishment as archaic, outdated and abusive by Watchtower has yet to appear in print. A full printed retraction on the matter would be appropriate, especially given past guidance such as the following…
“There are times, of course, when every child needs discipline, even with the literal rod, but this should be done—and not overdone—firmly and in love, without displaying the heat of anger. Children will come to appreciate deserved chastisement, and it will not ‘exasperate’ them. They will appreciate, too, the kindness and loving care that they receive at other times.” – “Good News to Make You Happy” (1976), p166
3. The Governing Body MIGHT not be Jehovah’s only spokespersons
hotline-god
Especially since they declared themselves to be the faithful slave in 2012, the Governing Body CLEARLY believe themselves to be God’s sole spokespersons or “channel,” as stated explicitly in published statements like the following (bold is mine)…
“Even as Bible prophecy pointed forward to the Messiah, it also directs us to the close-knit body of anointed Christian Witnesses that now serve as the faithful and discreet slave. It helps us to understand the Word of God. All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the ‘greatly diversified wisdom of God’ can become known only through Jehovah’s channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave.—John 6:68.” – w94 10/1 p.8
And yet, when confronted with Angus Stewart’s blunt question “Do you see yourselves as Jehovah God’s spokespeople on earth?” the answer that came from Jackson’s lips was astounding.
“That I think would seem to be quite presumptuous to say that we are the only spokesperson that God is using. The scriptures clearly show that someone can act in harmony with God’s spirit in giving comfort and help in the congregations, but if I could just clarify a little, going back to Matthew 24, clearly, Jesus said that in the last days ‐ and Jehovah’s Witnesses believe these are the last days ‐ there would be a slave, a group of persons who would have responsibility to care for the spiritual food. So in
that respect, we view ourselves as trying to fulfill that role.”
Jackson thus answered the question by changing it, and not for the first time during his testimony. The question was NOT “do you think you are the only ones being used by God’s spirit?” The question deliberately highlighted the role of God’s “spokesperson,” or channel of communication. It had nothing to do with, say, an ordinary publisher offering comfort and help in the congregation.
Jackson’s answer was, therefore, another attempt at ducking a question where an honest answer would have made him look foolish and deluded.
4. A ‘worldly’ lawyer can beat a Governing Body member in a scripture duel
03 Jackson
One of the most delightful and unexpected exchanges between Angus Stewart and Geoffrey Jackson arose from the former’s attempts to persuade the latter that there IS a scriptural basis for discarding the two witness rule as it relates to child sex abuse. The fascinating conversation is captured in the video below…
Simply put, Stewart correctly argued that child sex abuse amounts to rape, and because according to Deuteronomy 22:23-27 a rape victim who is attacked without witnesses in a field is to STILL see her attacker brought to justice (despite apparently being the only witness to the attack), therefore the same precedent could be applied to child sex abuse.
After considerable bluster about “circumstances,” again apparently aimed at obscuring the question, Jackson conceded that one witness was sufficient for a rapist to be stoned to death.
With predatory precision, Stewart then moved in for the kill.
“Is it not the case that had Jesus been asked about a case of sexual abuse, he may have referred back to this part of Deuteronomy and said that it’s not required to have two witnesses?”
Jackson could only reply: “I certainly would like to ask Jesus that, and I can’t at the moment, I hope to in the future. But that’s a hypothetical question which, if we had an answer, then we could support what you said.”
Subsequent to this exchange, Jackson submitted a written testimony to the commission effectively backtracking on everything he’d conceded on this point. Apparently Jackson no longer wants to ask Jesus about the question in the future, because “new light” has furnished him with the answer in record time.
According to Jackson’s written explanation, the two witness rule overrides the rape provision in Deuteronomy. And in any case, the rapist described would have already had his guilt established without the woman’s testimony. Essentially, Jackson trusts that the rapist would have given a full confession to elders of raping the woman in the field, despite facing the penalty of death by stoning for doing so.
Dubious and desperate reasoning aside, history will show that Angus Stewart gifted a Governing Body member with an opportunity to biblically justify scrapping the shameful two witness rule in relation to child abuse. And instead of seizing this gilt-edged opportunity to protect children, for reasons best known to him, Jackson bent over backwards to reject it.
5. A Governing Body member fails to deny that shunning is cruel
shunning2
A long and rather arduous exchange ensued from Angus Stewart’s brave attempts to pin Geoffrey Jackson down on the issue of shunning. As I have previously pointed out, you would think if shunning is a divine command from Jehovah himself Watchtower representatives, including Governing Body members, would leap at any chance to declare their glowing pride at the policy. Instead they do their level best to misrepresent it, or deny it altogether.
Jackson pursued just such an approach, this time by again attempting to cloud the issue. Fortunately, Stewart had done his homework on the matter and refused to be sidetracked. “I have chosen my words deliberately, Mr Jackson,” said Stewart with an air of exasperation at one such attempt to switch the subject of the question from disassociated ones to inactive ones.
Finally, after a lengthy exchange involving various hypothetical scenarios, Jackson had given Stewart enough rope to hang him with.
Stewart: Mr Jackson, you have put it that they have a choice to leave or not to leave. For someone who wants to leave, perhaps because they have suffered abuse by someone in the organisation and don’t feel that it has been treated properly or adequately, it’s a very difficult choice, isn’t it, because they must choose ‐‐
Jackson: I agree, yes.
Stewart: And it can be a very cruel choice for them ‐ not so?
Jackson: I agree, it’s a difficult choice.
And so, at the end of a marathon series of questioning, finally an end product of sorts: a Governing Body member failing to deny that the “difficult choice” facing those who wish to leave the organization is a cruel one.
6. Having a Christmas tree won’t necessarily get you disfellowshipped
christmas
In the labyrinth of questions aimed at highlighting the shunning policy, Angus Stewart asked Geoffrey Jackson the following…
So, for example, if they [a Jehovah’s Witness] had become inactive or sought to fade without formally disassociating, and the elders came to visit and found them celebrating Christmas or a birthday, they would be found to be in transgression of the rules, would they not?
Jackson’s answer was remarkable…
That is not my understanding. But again, as I said, it is not my field, that goes into policy with regard to those type of things, but from my personal experience, that’s not the case.
Anybody who knows anything about the Witness faith knows that celebrating Christmas or birthdays is expressly prohibited for Witnesses – a “transgression of the rules” as Stewart carefully phrased it. In fact “celebrating false religious holidays” is clearly listed as a form of apostasy in the Shepherd book and deemed judicially actionable by elders.
As with his earlier obfuscation about corporal punishment, Jackson’s ability to contort the truth so readily rather than take pride in teachings and practices that are supposed to be mandated by God will have been a huge wake-up call for any sincere Witnesses who dared to watch.
7. The Governing Body chooses the Governing Body (not Jesus)
gb-meeting
Hopefully it is rather obvious that the Governing Body chooses itself, or is self-appointed. But according to Watchtower literature the Governing Body is “not appointed by any man. It is appointed by the same one who appointed the twelve apostles in the first century C.E., namely, Jesus Christ the Head of the true Christian congregation and the Lord and Master of the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ class.” (w71 12/15 p.758)
Interestingly, however, nowhere in his testimony did Geoffrey Jackson even try to claim that Jesus appoints the Governing Body members.
Early on in the questioning, Angus Stewart asked: “And is it the case that the Governing Body then appoints new members of the Governing Body?” This would have been the perfect opportunity for Jackson to give a rambling theological lecture to the effect that Jesus is actually the one who does the appointing.
Instead we got a straightforward: “That is correct.”
Thinking Witnesses would do well to ask themselves: If the Governing Body is self-appointed, how does it differ in any meaningful sense from the leaders of other religions? From where does the Governing Body receive its mandate to lead ‘God’s organization’ if the appointments are openly and unashamedly made by men?
8. The Governing Body are “guardians of doctrine”
guardians
Watchtower literature has always taught that the role of the faithful and discreet slave is to provide God’s people with spiritual food “at the proper time.” In 2012 the Governing Body exclusively assumed this responsibility from Matthew 24:45 – verses that many regard as a parable rather than a prophecy.
But repeatedly in his testimony Jackson made a claim that will have sounded strange to the ears of many familiar with Witness teachings, namely that the Governing Body are to be considered the “custodians,” or “guardians,” of doctrine…
◾“So the goal of the Governing Body as custodians of our doctrine is to publish literature that helps people in everyday life using what the Bible says.”
◾“But the qualifications of a member for the Governing Body ‐ it involves someone who is considered an anointed Witness, who has worked in scriptural, with a scriptural background, either as a missionary or a full‐time servant for many years, and is able to fulfil the role of the Governing Body, which is, may I state, a group, a spiritual group of men who are the guardians of our doctrine, and as guardians of the doctrine, look at things that need to be decided based on our doctrines, which are based on the constitution of the Bible.”
◾“What we view ourselves, as fellow workers with our brothers and sisters ‐ we have been given a responsibility to guard or to be guardians of doctrine.”
◾“Ultimately, as guardians of our doctrine and beliefs, yes, some central group needs to make that decision, but that doesn’t mean to say that we are just on our own unilaterally making those decisions without research and input from others.”
It is one thing to print spiritual material based on your interpretation of what is written in the bible, but why this sudden fixation with guarding doctrine? If God has passed down his requirements to humanity in clear and unambiguous form, why do these need to be guarded by a group of men? Couldn’t any group of religious leaders assume such a role for themselves? Why this sudden fixation with protecting established doctrine rather than focusing on principles of love, mercy and grace?
Hopefully I am not the only one who found Jackson’s repeated expressions along these lines rather grating and cultish.
9. The Governing Body doesn’t care about the feelings of child abuse victims
victim2
Justice McClellan entered the fray on a number of occasions during Jackson’s testimony with the seeming intent of getting Jackson to reason on a human level. A good example of this was during a line of questioning about the feelings of female sex abuse victims who are made to give evidence to a committee comprised solely of men.
“Can you understand how a woman might feel when allegations which she brings forward against a man in the congregation are considered and judged entirely by men?” asked McClellan.
Jackson’s response was astonishing.
“Obviously I’m not a woman, so I wouldn’t like to speak on their behalf, but the two of us, I am sure, could understand from what has been expressed and believe that perhaps there would be a hesitancy there.”
And so Jackson washed his hands of the need to empathize with the feelings of women by virtue of the fact that he is not a woman. Only “perhaps” might women be hesitant to bring sex abuse allegations against a man before an all-male tribunal.
Another clue that Jackson is less than preoccupied with concern for the welfare of sex abuse victims can be found in his ignorance of the earlier testimony of BCG.
When asked by BCG’s lawyer whether he’d read her client’s evidence, Jackson replied: “I haven’t, I’m sorry. The reason I came here [to Australia] was to care for my ailing father, and that has taken a lot of my time. Plus, I wasn’t aware of the fact that I would be called before the Commission.”
At first glance this may sound like a reasonable excuse, but a disparity soon emerges when you consider the multiple occasions on which Jackson referred to the previous testimony of his own Watchtower representatives – something he somehow HAD found the time to brush up on despite caring for his father (bold is mine)…
◾“But if I could mention, some of the reports that you have considered are from 25 years ago, and if I understand correctly, from what little I heard of the Commission in the last few days, Mr Spinks very accurately described that there has been more of an awareness of Jehovah’s Witnesses to make sure that any victim who has been a victim of a horrible crime is not required to actually go before three men.”
◾“If I understand your question correctly, from what I have heard from Mr Spinks’ testimony, that is not something that we require now.”
◾“Thank you for the opportunity to explain this. I think very clearly Mr Toole pointed out that if the Australian Government, in all the States, was to make mandatory reporting, it would make it so much easier for us.”
◾“Could I explain, Mr Stewart, that ‐ you see, I think already under testimony some of Jehovah’s Witnesses have explained that the two‐witnesses needed can be, in some cases, the circumstances.”
Therefore, Jackson HAD taken time out to research previous evidence in the commission. He was just very selective about whose evidence he listened to, and seemingly had a preference for brushing up on what Watchtower representatives had to say rather than child abuse victims.
Another telling moment came when BCG’s clearly-exasperated lawyer expressed her dismay at Monica Applewhite’s evidence as paid for by Watchtower, which seems to have been roundly dismissed as one-sided and non-credible by the Commission.
“It is really disheartening for the survivors that evidence from people such as Dr Applewhite, without any reference whatsoever to the victims ‘experience, suggests to them that the reason for engaging experts is… more to do with the reputation of the Jehovah’s Witnesses than any real attempt to get to a deep understanding of their experience.”
In response to what was, again, more of an appeal to his humanity, Jackson replied…
“I certainly hope that is not the case, and that certainly was not the intent of it. So please, be assured that we are interested in the individuals such as the client that you are representing. And may I take this opportunity, I don’t know your client, but please, could you convey an expression of my love and concern and reassure her that obviously she has had an opportunity to speak about how she feels, and hopefully this will help the policies and procedures to improve.”
So, not only had Jackson failed to find time to research the testimony of victims of child abuse within his organization, despite somehow finding time to listen to the testimony of Watchtower representatives Rodney Spinks and Vincent Toole. Jackson had also thrown away an opportunity to show compassion by admitting that the deployment of “expert for hire” Monica Applewhite was in poor taste from the point of view of the victims. And to add insult to injury, he was now issuing instructions to BCG’s lawyer to act as a go-between with her client.
My response, had I been on the receiving end of this request, would have been: “I take instructions from BCG – not you, Mr Jackson. I’m sure if you really care about BCG and her situation, you will find the time and means to convey that message to her yourself in person.”
10. Lots of things are not Geoffrey Jackson’s “field”
09 Jackson
As you’ve probably gathered by now, Jackson used every trick in the book during his testimony to dodge or evade questions where an honest answer would land him in hot water.
Here are a few examples of Jackson repeating the line that a certain subject was “not his field,” or trying to buy time before answering a question…
◾“I would have to check on that, because personally that’s not my field.”
◾“I preface this in the fact that it is not my field that I work with every day…”
◾“Seeing it is not my field per se, I couldn’t give an inclusive answer with regard to that…”
◾“Sorry, you would need to walk me through that a little further. I’m not quite sure.”
◾“I preface this in the fact that it is not my field that I work with every day…”
◾“I am not familiar with the statistics or the general practice…”
◾“That’s a very large question and I think it’s something that we would need to consider carefully.”
◾“That is a possibility, but in all fairness to your question, I think there are circumstances, but I couldn’t make a definitive comment on that.”
◾“You know, your Honour, this is not my field.”
◾“I can’t say that I would give a comment on that…”
On two occasions in particular, frustration over Jackson’s question-dodging antics spilled over.
The most notable of these instances was the previously-discussed exchange regarding Christmas, in which Jackson insinuated that celebrating Christmas wouldn’t necessarily result in a disfellowshipping.
“But again, as I said, it is not my field,” was his disclaimer.
“Mr Jackson,” said Angus Stewart, his frustration obvious, “you say it’s not your field, but you are a member of the Governing Body which is responsible, as you have said, for the whole field, and you have been a member for 10 years, and all the committees are responsible to and accountable to the Governing Body.”
“That is correct,” said Jackson.
“So it is your field, isn’t it?”
“Only as far as approving the basic scriptural principles. So is there a scriptural principle that you have in mind you want to ask me about, or are you talking about policies and implementation of policies? There is a difference there.”
Then, later on, it was Justice McClellan’s turn to be visibly exasperated at Jackson’s stubborn refusal to answer a straightforward question – this time regarding whether Witness women could be involved in the judiciary process even if not in the sentencing (or punishment)…
Justice McClellan: Could women be involved in the determination of whether or not the allegation is true?
Jackson: Well, your Honour, if I could say, I think they already are involved, in the sense ‐‐
Justice McClellan: Not in the decision, Mr Jackson. Please address my question.
Jackson: Okay. But yes, in ‐ well, please, could I just use an example. If an underage child says that something has happened and then two women are involved with helping that person, surely they have to decide whether or not the facts are true. They then present those to the elders. Otherwise, how would the elders know what the facts are?
Justice McClellan: Mr Jackson, you are not dealing with my question.
Jackson: I am sorry. I apologise humbly, your Honour.
Again, we are not talking about journalists or a random member of the public being overly inquisitive. We are talking about a Judge at a specially-appointed Royal Commission charged with uncovering the serious mishandling of child abuse.
Whatever Jackson may privately think of his performance, it is difficult to imagine him leaving a positive impression before the Commission. Indeed, Justice McClellan seemed to have a slight parting dig at him, saying “You are formally excused from your summons” rather than the usual, “you are excused.”
11. (Don’t laugh!) The Governing Body is good at saying sorry
sorry
Yes, apparently the Governing Body are quite accomplished when it comes to apologizing for their mistakes.
When asked by Angus Stewart whether he could foresee the Governing Body ever issuing an apology to survivors of sexual abuse at the hands of elders in the organization, this was Jackson’s response…
“The Governing Body has apologised on other matters, so for me to say ‐ I can’t speak collectively for everybody, but we have apologised on things in the past, in other areas, so it is perceivable.”
If someone could point me in the direction of where these apologies may be found, I would greatly appreciate it. To my knowledge the Governing Body has never apologized once for anything. And in rare instances where it has addressed areas of regret, it has usually found a way of apportioning the blame elsewhere – as was the case with the ‘apology’ for 1975. (w76 7/15 p.441 par.15)
12. Penguins are not found in the middle of Australia
10 Jackson
Ok, so the last one is a bit silly, but you must allow me a bit of a chuckle at Jackson’s rather random penguin comment. It seems remiss to exclude it from the list.
Early in the proceedings, when trying to establish the role and influence of the Governing Body, Angus Stewart asked Jackson whether the Governing Body takes responsibility for organizational manuals and guidelines. The odd way Jackson chose to answer the question came as a surprise.
“We do take spiritual responsibility for it, yes. May I just mention, if there is a printing mistake and we say that penguins are found in the middle of Australia, then, yes, it’s true, we take responsibility, but it’s without not within the realms of our expertise. But we would check to see who it was that had given that wrong information.”
Hopefully Jackson and his fellow dear leaders DO possess sufficient knowledge to question a printed claim that penguins live in Australia without having specific expertise in zoology. That said, given Stephen Lett’s recent claims that there is as much evidence for Christ’s kingdom as there is for “gravity, electricity, wind,” perhaps we need to lower our expectations.
And if only the Governing Body DID take prompt action whenever wrong information is printed in the publications! Mind you, they would have their work cut out fact-checking and issuing corrections for nearly 140 years of false predictions, pseudo-science, medical quackery, doctrinal flip-flops, abusive policies, misquotes, draconian rules and spurious interpretations of scripture – a daunting task if ever there was one.
Perhaps encountering a penguin in the Australian outback is more likely.
new-cedars-signature3
Further reading…
◾Australian Royal Commission hears that 1,006 alleged child sex abusers were covered up by Watchtower
◾Elders shamed under questioning by the Royal Commission
◾Reflecting on the Australian Royal Commission (Day 3, Part 1)
◾Royal Commission’s Angus Stewart accuses Watchtower representative of deliberate deception
◾JWsurvey articles on child abuse
Huge thanks go to Vincent Deporter, JWsurvey’s resident artist, for contributing artwork for this article. If you enjoy Vincent’s work, you might be interested in obtaining a copy of “Sacred Cows,” a recent picture book that takes a lighthearted look at religion.
I am in the process of working on video rebuttals to Jackson’s royal commission testimony as a five-part video series. Please subscribe to my YouTube channel for updates when these videos are uploaded.
If you still haven’t watched the footage from the Royal Commission, a playlist of videos is below…
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309 Responses to 12 things we learned from Geoffrey Jackson’s testimony at the Royal Commission
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JB Reezner says:
September 17, 2015 at 4:35 pm
Beautifully said, Ted. Let me shamelessly hitch my wagon to your comment too. The mistreatment and misjudging of the sisters in the congregation ended up being one of the problems with the Org that was hardest for me to stomach. The longtime faithful sisters were consistently the wisest, most compassionate and hard-working members of the congregation. Too many times, they were victims of hurtful interactions with arrogant elders.
I accompanied an elder on a “shepherding” call once. This dear older sister was so HAPPY to have us there. She began to tell us about some family issues that had been bothering her, but the elder said, “That’s ancient history. We don’t care about that.” Less than a minute later he was saying, “Well tell us, sister– what can we do to help you get out in field service more”? I can still remember the disgust I felt for that man that night. I was an MS being “groomed” for an elder appointment. Not long after that, I lost interest in that prospect and stepped “down”. A year or so later, in a comfortable setting with some trusted friends, that sister asked me if I remembered that visit. I told her I certainly did, and how I felt about it. She then confirmed to me what I had assumed– that it had been a disappointing and painful experience for her.
At every opportunity, I made it my mission to let the under-appreciated sisters know how precious they were. And, what the heck, I might as well mention that later on, when my health briefly failed and I was homebound, I was one of the best-fed people you have ever known!
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Meredith J says:
September 18, 2015 at 12:36 am
Good on you for stepping aside. Always a gallant move in a man I think for the sake of principles.
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Wip it says:
September 17, 2015 at 5:12 pm
I try not to go to all the meetings, just enough to keep people of my back, but a couple of nites ago a brother giving the bible highlights worked the royal commission into his comments & basically called it all lies, & don’t believe anything on tv or in the newspapers, i wonder if they have been directed to say these things, anyway, it made me sick, as this was the elder i was serving with who hid a letter from the police during a search of the KH, he also stated that from now on the brothers would divulge info to the police!!
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JB Reezner says:
September 17, 2015 at 6:36 pm
Wip it, that’s so disgusting. Sounds like now would be a good time for you to develop a problem with “being around crowds”. And then fade it on outttt…
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JJ says:
September 17, 2015 at 8:52 pm
That’s a great idea and I wish that I had thought of that years ago!
Just developed a phobia to people and start ‘listening in’ on the phone… Of course you’re not listening in but you can fade away while relaxing at home.
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Baby says:
September 21, 2015 at 12:31 pm
comment?
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Ted says:
September 17, 2015 at 5:42 pm
J B Reezner, I agree entirely, the sisters are far more spiritual
than many of the elders. Elders were more concerned about
F,Service reports and keeping in the COs good books than the
welfare of the bro, or sis themselves. In fact shepherding
calls were mostly allocated to ones who missed reporting
for a while. And one of the many appealing qualities of the
sisters, as you’ve experienced is, they love to feed you up.
You can keep the patriarchal institutions for me.
Best wishes, Ted.
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GEM says:
September 17, 2015 at 11:24 pm
@JBReezner:
A big YES from me for your comment about our Sisters. It took me many years to let the WT mentality go. In large part, because many of the Sisters in the congregation became my surrogate Mums. I was in Full time service for 10 years, and my own mother was violently opposed to the JWs and my Father’s Eldership.
I owe these Sisters a Debt of Love. I am no longer be part of the congregation(s) but I will always be indebted.
Thank you….and, please accept the little tokens of affection I have given since I walked away.
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Meredith J says:
September 18, 2015 at 12:38 am
Thank you Ted for your comment. I do remember so many many kind sisters and I do also remember how good it was to be in company with some.
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James Broughton says:
September 18, 2015 at 4:23 am
A superb article with some excellent and heart-rending replies. I am preparing an article in response to the latest Watchtower (Sept.15) on ‘Who are Jehovah’s Witnesses?’ and you have certainly given me a useful insight. They issue the challenge “Would you like to receive truthful answers to your questions about Jehovah’s Witnesses? We encourage you to turn to the most knowledgeable source – Jehovah’s Witnesses themselves…” Now we can honestly do that.
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James Broughton says:
September 18, 2015 at 4:54 am
An excellent article with some thoughtful replies. The latest Watchtower magazine (Sept.15) poses the question, “Would you like to receive truthful answers to your questions about Jehovah’s Witnesses? We encourage you to turn to the most knowledgeable source – Jehovah’s Witnesses themselves…” Now we can do that with integrity.
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Anonymous says:
September 18, 2015 at 8:46 am
Watchtower fulfills the prophecy of the Stupid Ones outlined in the Bible.
They made a vow to God to protect his sheep and they did not pay up. They sacrifice God’s principles for the worldly judicial system and are not aware of what they are doing.
Watchtower is glorifying dishonor by not taking care of the child abuse that is occurring in their religion. In addition, they are getting beat in the court system due to their stupid ways. They have followers who take pleasure in the empty words.
Empty words such as the “this generation” prophesy. Where the sheep are once again led astray by another revision of their original prophesy.
Scriptural proofs:
Ecclesiastes 5:4 – Whenever you make a vow to God, do not delay to pay it, for he finds no pleasure in the stupid ones. What you vow, pay.
Ecclesiastes 5:1 – Watch your step whenever you go to the house of the true God; it is better to draw near to listen than to give a sacrifice as the stupid ones do, for they are not aware that what they are doing is bad.
Proverbs 3:35 – The wise will inherit honor, But the stupid ones glorify dishonor.
Proverbs 19:29 – Judgment is in store for ridiculers, And beatings for the back of the stupid ones.
Proverbs 8:5 – You inexperienced ones, learn shrewdness; You stupid ones, acquire an understanding heart.
Psalm 49:13 – This is the way of the stupid ones And of those who follow them, who take pleasure in their empty words. (Selah)
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Ted says:
September 18, 2015 at 9:28 am
Guardians of doctrine claims Jackson, but are they the
guardians of “TRUTH “? There’s a massive difference.
Truth is absolute, it does not change, it cannot be changed.
Any directions from an omniscient God would be flawless
from the beginning, and would remain so. They would not
become an embarrassment at some point in the future and
need revising or abandoning altogether.
Expressions such as, “Present Truth,” “New Light” are just
cunning, devious and wicked deceptions. To perpetuate
the big deception, the fantastic claim of being God’s
exclusive channel, the only route to God.
Doctrine is mans interpretation and subject to change and
often has little in common with truth. What Jackson & Co,
fiercely guard is their authority to invent doctrine and have
it accepted and obeyed.
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Pickled brain says:
September 19, 2015 at 7:28 pm
@Ted I Really like your reasoning on the terminology ‘GUARDIAN of DOCTRINE’ as Interpretation of Doctrine can change at an time!!!
The point you make about being the ‘Exclusive Channel ‘to God seems by Jacksons comments to Angus Stewart at the Australian Royal Commission that ‘ it would be PRESUMPTUOUS to say the GB were the only SPOKESPERSON for God ??? HMmmm … I wonder if Geoffrey Jackson was playing a little bit of THEOCRATIC WARFARE here??
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Queen Elsa says:
September 18, 2015 at 10:36 am
I am not sure if asking this question will help my situation, but I would like the groups feedback….Amazon.com has a donation program for charity(Amazon Smile). Any charity of your choice will receive 3% of the any purchase. I wanted to see if WBTS would accept any donation from any purchase and they do, from Halloween costumes to S and M toys. Am I alone in seeing the hypocrisy? Can anyone think of a WT article that resembles the principle of this situation? I asked my spouse if a JW store owner could sell Halloween stuff and he said it would be wrong since they can control what they sell. I see it no different in the above mentioned situation…Your thoughts?
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JB Reezner says:
September 18, 2015 at 9:25 pm
Interesting question, Queen Elsa. Honestly, regarding hypocritically taking money from a source that you speak against and is REPULSIVE to you, I will admit that if the Org wanted to cut me a check for the money I’ve given THEM in my lifetime, I would say “Yes!” so fast it would make your head spin (while never letting up in speaking against them and being repulsed by them). So, if you’re saying that they somehow have a way to tell Amazon to reject a donation if it’s made during the purchase of an “unclean” product, and yet they don’t do that, then yes I’d say there would be some measure of hypocrisy there. I would guess that they’d attempt to explain it away by maybe invoking something like the “meat sacrificed to idols” principle. But, on the list of horrific things they are guilty of, this would probably not rank very high.
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Queen Elsa says:
September 19, 2015 at 12:26 am
I don’t see why not, they control every thing in our lives… I think it’s very hypocritical.
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JB Reezner says:
September 19, 2015 at 8:00 am
We’re mainly in agreement. To me, it would just be lower on the totem pole of terrible things they do and have done. I wish you would’ve gotten more replies. It’s a fascinating question and I suspect my opinion may be in the minority on this.
Pickled brain, where are you!? I need my partner in crime to get in here and give one of your trademark impassioned replies to Queen Elsa on this matter!
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Queen Elsa says:
September 19, 2015 at 9:25 am
I’m not surprised at the lack of response. Most of my comments and questions go unnoticed for the most part. I suppose I will have to look elsewhere for what I need….
Meredith J says:
September 19, 2015 at 10:56 pm
Queen Elsa Believe me your comments don’t go unnoticed. I just don’t get a chance to comment on them all. I feel sometimes like I’m too much of a chatterbox anyway and try and limit myself. Sorry, if I haven’t commented on your comments so far. Always read your stuff and enjoy what you have to say.
Meredith J says:
September 19, 2015 at 10:26 pm
When I first looked into what the Watchtower were up to, at the time, they owned 49% of a company which made top secret ceramic engines for American navy submarines and also the same company made jet fighters. I could not believe my eyes. At the time I just googled Watchtower and that came up.
After hubby and I told a friend of ours about it, he looked into it. Then he said that he had heard that they had inherited part of that company from a brother who died. Humm, sure, and it just happened to be 49% of the company. This usually entails a company having part ownership but not having more than half the ownership. I heard later that when this was pointed out to them that they decided to sell it off. Sure, they only sold it because they were caught.
There was also the story how they became NGO’s to the United Nations. From what I remember, someone who was working in the UN building saw the Live Forever Book and noticed how JW’s thought that the UN was the Wild Beast in Revelation. This person told a Witness that the Watchtower people were in the building all the time gathering pictures and information for their publications and they were a registered NGO.
My husband looked it up for the UN and there it was. Someone else could probably give you better details than that but they were joined to the UN for about 10 years. That is why they knew so much about the UN. They belonged to it.
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Grace says:
September 19, 2015 at 1:35 pm
Dear Queen Elsa,
Please don’t be put off by your lack of answers to questions. I enjoy your comments. I suppose people don’t know how to answer some questions so they don’t out of lack of confidents.
I have also had moments of not commenting anymore at times because I thought that I didn’t have a lot to offer.
Also, sometimes I think that some of us aren’t on for a few days & miss some comments. Whenever I have a spare couple of hours I try to catch up on the ones that I have missed but I feel like it’s too late to comment to some on here who have some absolutely amazing thoughts. It’s hard because I don’t want to distract from the current topic.
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Pickled brain says:
September 19, 2015 at 2:40 pm
@Queen Elsa .PLEASE KEEP COMMENTING!! You Views are VALUED & Yes the DAMNED GB are HYPOCRITICAL in How they take our Donations!! OHhh YES PLEASE Give Me Your Stocks & Shares But you NAUGHTY JWs mustn’t have Premium Bonds or Play the Lottery !! Ermm Excuse me GB ??? But the Stinking STOCK MARKET is the Biggest Lottery & Biggest game of Chance you will ever play!!
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Pickled brain says:
September 19, 2015 at 2:44 pm
@ Grace . Totally agree with your comments. Have other commitments which sometimes precludes me from always looking at this site daily so I might miss some comments so please if I have missed anyone’s comment it is not intentional!! LOVE YOU ALL Even the Negative ones whose comments make GOOD BANTER??
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Queen Elsa says:
September 19, 2015 at 10:04 pm
Thanks for your endearing words… I suppose what you wrote would be true if it happened randomly, but it doesn’t, unfortunately. I gave up honestly… Isn’t a comment or question supposed to elicit a response? My voice is silent at home and I do feel captive to watchtower, so I am probably more sensitive to being ignored… However, this site has helped me know I am not alone. It was of my first sites to visit in researching the organization two years ago when the gb claimed themselves as athe fds. I have read every comment on hot topic issues so I respect many on the site… But again, I will have to look elsewhere for my questions and needs…
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Tara says:
September 19, 2015 at 6:58 pm
I’ve only just seen this so for my tuppenceworth I would say they would except it… maybe like laundered monies. well yes pagan things were bought but now the money is clean and given in good will. Yet a brother or sister would not be allowed to work in an establishment that sold… cigarettes etc. I often wondered about how the society would feel about a bro. or sister working in a gun shop! Half of the ones I know own guns.
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Idontknowhatodo says:
September 18, 2015 at 4:23 pm
I come to the site tonight with a heavy and scared heart…I am a coward…I fear being shunned by my children and being viewed with didain by my husband…until 2 years ago my eyes were not totally opened but now they are I have what has been called the freedom of my mind…tonight I learned that an elder in a neighbouring congregation has been disfellowshipped for Apostasy…he made known he did not agree with the holy dates of 607 and 1914 etc etc and has been disfellowshipped…watching my lovely husband imediatly turn into a lip curling and judgmental man scared me…especially when I tried to defend the elder…it was awful and I feel heartsick…I love my husband more than I can say but a little part of that love died tonight and I feel bereft…my heart goes out to everyone in my position..55 years of mind control and 2 years of awakening with the gaping hole of losing everyone I love if I am brave like this man…I hate it all…I feel as if someone close to me has passed away…and I feel a little chip of my love for my husband has gone…and most of all I feel like a coward…its not a nice feeling.
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Catalina says:
September 18, 2015 at 4:37 pm
You’re not a coward. You have a lot of love in your heart. That’s why you feel the way you do.
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Catalina says:
September 18, 2015 at 4:37 pm
You’re not a coward. You have a lot of love in your heart. That’s why you feel the way you do.
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Tara says:
September 18, 2015 at 7:33 pm
You are not a coward. The cowards are the ones who bully right hearted ones like yourself, with fear and mind control. Don’t loose hope on your husband. Pray that with this situation he may decide to look at the facts. I have found people get angry because they are not convinced themselves and have no better way to defend themselves.
You have all of us on this site because we are all waking up if we are not already there. x
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JB Reezner says:
September 18, 2015 at 8:01 pm
Idontknowhatodo, you don’t deserve the pain and fear you are feeling, or the predicament you are in. Feeling like a coward is unwarranted. Publicizing your enlightenment to a family full of hard-core believers and executing a hard break from the Org is not always the practical move. One of the most frustrating things about the awakening we’ve experienced is that frequently there is no way to handle it that doesn’t result in pain. Sometimes all we can do is weigh our options and choose the path that leads to the least amount of pain and personal loss. However you choose to handle it, please don’t make things worse by harshly judging yourself. Try to find comfort in knowing that there is a group of people who care about you and can truly relate to what you are going through. When possible, keep participating here with us in order to counteract the feelings of pointlessness that come from participating (even if only socially) at JW meetings and such.
Having said all that, I’ll add that I’m not pushing one approach over the another. You may snap one day and tell everybody -kids and all- to take that load of easily-disprovable nonsense and stuff it, and that if they really love you, they won’t be told by some organization of men to shun the one person on this earth who loves them the most– this action possibly resulting in a feeling of total relief and freedom, no matter what the other consequences are. It’ll be up to you to do what you think is best. My point is that, no matter how you handle it, go easy on yourself, and remember that you are not alone.
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Pickled brain says:
September 18, 2015 at 11:20 pm
@JB Reezner. VERY WELL REASONED to ‘ idontknowwhattodo’ Also VERY KIND & EMPATHETIC to Anyone Else in the same position not to be too hard on themselves whatever path they decide to take. YOU & Many others here are MORE CHRISTIAN than the Total 7 MEN at BROOKLYN Put Together!!
Keep up the good commenting!!
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JB Reezner says:
September 19, 2015 at 12:44 pm
Pickled brain, thank you so much. I very much feel the same way about you and the others here as we try to untwist ourselves back in the opposite direction from when we were giving people misguided and potentially harmful advice as JW’s. This site is enjoyable and deeply important.
Now, if you please, take a swig of Red Bull, pop back up to Queen Elsa’s question, and do what you do best, my friend!
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Pickled brain says:
September 19, 2015 at 2:50 pm
@PB Reezner. Queen Elsa has been duly replied to !!! Also ‘GRACE’ made good comments which I replied to ! That Red Bull is good stuff!!
JB Reezner says:
September 19, 2015 at 7:26 pm
Yesss! 5 gold stars for YOU, Pickled brain. I knew you wouldn’t let me down, my friend. Your reply was perfect, and I’m sure it would’ve appeared as your time permitted without me having to flash the Pickle-Signal up in the sky. Thanks!
Robert67 says:
September 18, 2015 at 8:10 pm
You are being brave and its wonderful to hear that they have not completely taken Gods love from your heart. I am in the very same position, the only difference is that I have and urge to just yell out what I believe and quit. I’ve read through so many experiences of people who do just that or they fade away which is fine. I also believe that over the next few years many, many others will come to know the real truth online and other media, causing the GB to tighten their grip on the friends even more. They will find any given bible passage at all whatsoever and claim that it clearly states Jehovahs will to turn in anyone we even suspect of being an apostate (you can only be one if you speak against God, not the seven samurai in Brooklyn) There will also be new light as to the 607-1914 dates and a great elaborate explanation as to why Jehovah was covering their eyes until the right time, never mind the thousands dissfellowshiped and cursed to destruction for saying it all along. I love the meetings, friends and field service and cannot picture my life without them. I will sit tight finding comfort in knowing the truth, free of the sky is falling pressures of before. Ill be working on another degree and living more of life as I fervently work to spread the truth through my own methods.
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Pickled brain says:
September 18, 2015 at 11:40 pm
@ Idontknowwhattodo. YOU DEAR LADY are MORE CHRISTIAN THAN the WHOLE 7 GOVERNING BODY MEN PUT TOGETHER!! I know EXACTLY how you feel as I am in the same position with my wife Condemning me EVERY time I make a comment in the meetings that is slightly critical of the Doctrine or F&D Slave. IT IS FRIGHTENING when Normally INTELLIGENT People in every other Aspects of Life can BE SO BLINKERED when it comes to HERO WORSHIP of 7 FALLIBLE MEN in BROOKLYN who TIME & AGAIN CHANGE INTERPRETATIONS of SCRIPTURE & SEPARATE FAMILIES JUST for DISAGREEING. ABSOLUTELY EVIL!!
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anonymous says:
September 19, 2015 at 2:04 pm
@Idontknowwhattodo, my heart goes out to you and I hate the religion more than I can say too but I don’t put all the blame on the Organization either. I told more than two of the elders from my congregation about 607 and my cousin and also my husband and my kids and only one of my daughters and the mother of a girl I studied with and was getting close to baptism, listened to me but none of those other people care about any “facts” and even refuse to check it out. My husband thinks they gave a “marking” talk about me a couple months ago.
I don’t know if your husband cared to find out about 607 or not but all those people except for my one daughter and the mother of a girl I studied with, that I tried to tell about it, didn’t care.
You could tell them about all the pedophiles the Society covers up and all the children still being molested and these people simply don’t care. It isn’t until they personally get shunned for offering their own opinion that differs from the “guardians of the doctrines” that they will realize what they are involved in. Until then, they like having their “reward” in full with the self-satisfaction they get thinking they are an elite group of people, better than anybody living on earth because they think that God arrogantly only speaks to them and uses them exclusively.
Personally, when I started feeling the preemptive shunning from not going to meetings, I lost all respect for those people. The only reason I don’t disassociate is so that I can still talk to my kids too. It’s not cowardice. It’s called being in a prison we can’t get out of.
The best thing that can happen is for the Society to be exposed and little by little and it will happen sooner or later (hopefully sooner). When Armageddon hasn’t happened in 20 or 30 years, maybe then, people will realize that they were “had” and if not, then if they want to be that stupid and gullible, then I feel let them and I don’t pity them. If they look down their noses at me, then I know they are all under brain control just the same as Jim Jones had all his people believing in his “revelations”.
I think there’s a lot to be said for that elder who was disfellowshipped because he had the “love” for all his captive brothers and sisters to take a stand for the real “truth”. It could be that he was in a position where he didn’t have family in the “truth” that he was going to lose. If that wasn’t the case for me and I was going to fade and still going to meetings, I’d answer at the Watchtower and say something like “and by the way, Jerusalem was destroyed in 587/586 B.C.E. and the Society are lying to you because it destroys their theory about 1914 and get up and walk out and let the chips fall where they may.
I love that brother for what he did and if those people had love for their “brother”, they would had all stood up for his right to say that without being disfellowshipped for it. His being disfellowshipped for saying that, should tell all his “friends” that they also don’t have a right to speak out when they see something that is an absolute lie. The fact that they didn’t walk out because of what the Society did to that elder, says that they were never his “friends” in the first place. When you analyze it, it can’t hurt to lose something you never had. The realization that they were never your real “friends” in the first place is heart breaking though. I think that is what you are realizing about hour husband now.
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Rosie says:
September 21, 2015 at 5:37 am
Whilst I know that there are many who cannot make the break due to family reasons and who sadly are having to endure putting on an act, (or in PBs case working undercover), I know of another former elder and his wife who stood up against the teachings of the GB several years ago.
After the start of their awakening, for a short while they went against the protocol and when preaching and giving talks they used only the Bible. This was much frowned upon.
However once they fully realised how they had been duped and that what they were being expected to preach was lies, they could not remain. They believed that remaining associated and silent about the Organisation rendered them “guilty by association”, so they left.
Happily several others from that congregation awoke to the TTATT at the same time and there was a dramatic “Mass Exodus”.
Since they left, lies and fabricated stories have been spread through the JW grapevine about them. Former so-called JW friends and active JW family could hardly wait before they cut all association, not even wanting to listen to the real reasons for their leaving. They preferred to believe the fabricated stories.
Letters were returned unopened and abusive phone-calls were received questioning the Elder, with the phone slammed down in response to his answer. (Funnily enough after one phone-call there was “new light” and what the Elder had said during the phone-call was now “the correct interpretation”. There was no phone-call of apology though).
Anonymous’s comment was absolutely correct – sadly the love shown by former friends and family was “conditional” and controlled by the Organisation, which is not what true friendship is about.
I should add that since the “mass exodus” those who left have rebuilt their lives; rejoicing in the freedom from the mind-controlling Organisation, being free to think for themselves and have discovered that there are lovely people who are not JWs and whose love is not conditional; quite the opposite to the picture that the Org paints of “worldly people”.
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anonymous says:
September 19, 2015 at 8:17 pm
I love that brother for what he did and if those people had love for their “brother”, they would had all stood up for his right to say that without being disfellowshipped for it. His being disfellowshipped for saying that, should tell all his “friends” that they also don’t have a right to speak out when they see something that is an absolute lie. The fact that they didn’t walk out because of what the Society did to that elder, says that they were never his “friends” in the first place and that is heartbreaking and pathetic.
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Meredith J says:
September 19, 2015 at 10:39 pm
Idontknowhatodo Take heart. There are a lot here who are in the same predicament as you. I don’t know what the answer is. For me it was hard because like everybody else, I was brainwashed and scared like you wouldn’t believe as I did not know what to do. But it was easy for me because my husband felt the same as me. I do know that prayer is vital especially when you are going through this and especially in regard to your marriage. Miracles are possible. Don’t forget that. When you leave the Watchtower you have to do it carefully as you want to minimise trouble. Although for some, like that elder, he was just out there and wanted it to be known that he thought it was all a load of nonsense. His wife may have felt the same as him. Who knows? Just keep praying about it. At least your husband knows how you feel by what you have already said. Give him time.
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Excelsior! says:
September 20, 2015 at 1:51 pm
Idontknowwhattodo,
You have my deep sympathy for the pain you are in. Your husband is displaying his cult personality, but his genuine personality, the man you fell in love with, is still there and fighting. I am currently reading “combating cult mind control” by Steven Hassan, and it is helping me understand the terrible gulf between what I see and what my loved one sees. It helps to know why.
If your situation is making you unwell, please go to your GP and seek professional advice. We all want to help you, but none of us are qualified to offer you anything more than our opinions.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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Bad Penny says:
September 18, 2015 at 5:14 pm
Ted –
Interesting words from Whacko Jacko, Guardians Of Doctrine – Looks like they have made themselves into G.O.D.s after all!!
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Tara says:
September 18, 2015 at 7:35 pm
I found it funny that they had to go into the ARC (K) Australian Royal Commission (Kommission)
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Pickled brain says:
September 18, 2015 at 11:51 pm
@ TO ALL of YOU WHO COMMENT ON THIS SITE. You all show more COMPASSION & KINDNESS in all your Little Fingers than the 7 Governing Body MEN Have ever shown in their whole Lives ! You are ALL helping So Many Active JWs who secretly read this site. Keep up the good work !!
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Ted says:
September 19, 2015 at 10:46 am
Idontknowhatodo,
Self doubt afflicts us all sometimes, I’m not sure, but it could be
an indication that the mental and moral compass is in good
working order. However I do know that if we let it get a grip,
it prevents us moving ahead and makes us very unhappy.
It’s a burden we need to let go.
Being cautious in a difficult situation, especially one that
affects family unity, is not cowardice, it’s good sense.
It’s wonderful that your mind is now free from the oppressive
cult domination and the guilt that it put on us all. No one can
take that from us.
You love your husband, that’s something worth hanging on to,
and it can help if we bear in mind that he’s a victim of cult
control also. If we treat our JW relatives with love and
respect, there can be no reproach on our part.–
That’s the way I’m trying with my, still in relatives, and with a
determination not to surrender my freedom of mind.
All our thoughts are with you, and as one sis recently
commented, “we’re all in this together.
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JJ says:
September 19, 2015 at 11:54 am
I have just seen the new movie called Spotlight at a local film festival. It is slated for wide release in a month or so.
Spotlight deals with the Boston Globe’s newspaper team called Spotlight and how they won a Pulizer Prize for exposing the sex abuse scandal inside of the Catholic Church.
As you watch this excellent movie, you can’t help but draw a lot of parallels to the Jehovah’s Witnesses and what is no doubt going to unfold there! The Catholic Church, under Cardinal Law, enacted some kind of ‘reforms’ in the early 1990’s, that were obviously useless, but the Cardinal continually referred to these changes and how effective they supposedly were, under oath. Reminds me of our own Governing Body and how they think the article they printed a few decades ago was so ahead of its time.
Anyways, this movie and the publicity that is going along with it, will probably do a lot of good for everyone and it should help expose the JW’s for acting the same way as the Catholics. It’s got Oscar buzz too!
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JB Reezner says:
September 20, 2015 at 8:03 am
Thanks for the heads-up, JJ. I just pulled the preview up and it looks great. On a side note, I’m happy to see Michael Keaton back. He’s an old favorite of mine. Brilliant actor no matter what he does. Really all of the lead actors listed for this movie are superb.
I hope this important movie does well. If it does, they will surely make more like it. Here’s the preview: https://youtu.be/56jw6tasomc
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Idontknowhatodo says:
September 19, 2015 at 1:24 pm
I just want to say thank you to all who gave me support after my last post…you made me feel that I was not alone…my heart goes out to this elder that spoke out about the lies fed to us…his family apparently are devastated…as the ARCsaid…’there is no dignified way to leave this religion’… yet there is more dignity and humanity in your replies than I have ever felt in my entire life…Thank you…And Thank You Lloyd for this site…dont critisize Lloyd…this is a wonderful place for people in the same situation as me.
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Pickled brain says:
September 19, 2015 at 7:15 pm
@Idontknowwhattodo. VERY BEAUTIFULLY SAID KIND LADY !! LOVELY WORDS!!
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Ted says:
September 19, 2015 at 3:03 pm
Queen Elsa, This may not answer your question, spot on
but it’s in the Org,= hypocrisy area, Sparlock the Warrior
Wizard, and various spin offs, stickers etc. can be obtained
from Argos.
We know from the DVD the org, produced, that sparlock
makes JHVH.very sad, and it made little Caleb sad when
he was guilted into binning it.
But the org, are very happy to accept the 3% vig, on sales
just as they are the kids ice cream money,
Best wishes, Ted.
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Meredith J says:
September 19, 2015 at 10:46 pm
Ted, I caught that Sparlock thing on Youtube. What a horrible piece of work that is. I could not help the guilt I loaded onto my children when I saw it and how utterly damaging it would be to children. Do they have to be reminded about evil in EVERYTHING they do? For crying out loud, they have to be able to play and pretend. It is all part of being a child and growing up. How burdensome for them.
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eyes opened says:
September 19, 2015 at 5:46 pm
Hi idontknowhatodo,
I was fortunate that my husband and I were on the same wavelength and our hearts go out to you. When you gain such freedom of thought we can feel like Jeremiah and want to shout from the roof top. But patience is a virtue. All cars traveling on the highway go at different speeds but still arrive at the same destination. Give your husband and family some time. It certainly took me awhile to accept new thoughts and I’m sure it did you too. They may need time to catch up. A few battles may be lost or perhaps not even fought but you can still win the war. The shrewd one has seen the calamity and conceals himself. There is a time to speak and a time to keep quiet. Jesus said he had many things to tell his disciples but they couldn’t handle it yet. Cliches, maybe. But I think words of wisdom. Your actions are not those of a coward but rather someone with wisdom.
Best Regards
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Meredith J says:
September 19, 2015 at 10:50 pm
eyes opened Well said. Especially when you mentioned about a time to speak and a time to keep quiet. Very true.
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JB Reezner says:
September 19, 2015 at 9:11 pm
On a technical note, from the beginning I was having an issue where a few my comments would not post at all. On these occasions, I would paste the comment back into a new window (because I knew to copy the text before I submitted it the first time), change a few words, and then it would successfully post.
Now, days later, those initial comments have all been released from spam-Tartarus, creating several duplicate comments. Although this will make me look like an insane person to anyone going back to check for new comments on previous pages, I am still happy, Lloyd, to have been released from the clutches of your sadistically unpredictable comment-killing “capriciously malevolent bully” of a spam filter. Thanks!
…and then none of you ever heard from me again…
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JB Reezner says:
September 20, 2015 at 3:35 pm
That last part was a joke meaning that Lloyd’s spam filter would come alive and kill me in my sleep. Nothing serious meant. But I’m sure that was obvious, lol.
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Meredith J says:
September 20, 2015 at 3:50 pm
JB Reezner I didn’t know if you were writing in your sleep or what? The mind boggles. All I know is I had a good chuckle over it and that’s good right now.
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J.B. Reezner says:
September 20, 2015 at 4:28 pm
Well I’m glad to hear that, Meredith J! I’m afraid there are some persistent gremlins (probably mostly in my own brain) hampering my ability to post without running into the occasional soul-crushing technical snag. John is helping me with it, and I thanked him by lashing out like a cornered spider monkey. Hopefully, he forgives me. Anyway, I’m trying to not give up. This site has quickly become a very important source of encouragement to me, and a nice little extended family, if I dare say so. This is a good thing. I give myself MAYBE another week before I completely screw it up…
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J.B. Reezner says:
September 21, 2015 at 7:59 am
…that joke was about messing good things up for myself, which I have been known to do. Just disregard this whole little block of comments, folks, lol. I’ve been in a weird mood, but I’m snapping out of it. Thanks again to John Hoyle for helping me with some technical issues.
Michele says:
September 20, 2015 at 12:10 am
Maybe it is my still indoctrinated self from childhood talking, but I don’t and probably never will understand the importance of having a Christmas Tree. Though I am confused about what I am SUPPOSED to believe, I still feel that Christianity is about walking in Christ’s footsteps by imitating his example. I don’t see Christ with any narcissistic tendencies to want to celebrate the day he was born. He clearly only said to “Keep doing this in remembrance of me” referring to the last evening meal. Then again that is what the Bible says, which is supposedly inspired by God, yet for some reason all the books of the Bible were not included, which is entirely a different subject. But when you look at the Christmas tree you have to know that the origins came from the Germanic tribes which worshiped many gods including the god of the trees. Just like Ishtar is a deity for fertility that Easter was named after. (I finally found out where the rabbits come in!…smh) Why do anyone continue to make a big deal about celebrating Christmas? Even though I always lived on the “edge” of the congregation due to doubts every since childhood, I still can’t integrate Christmas or Easter into my livelihood because I don’t want to add any more trouble with God after throwing so many years away for not making up my mind earlier to dedicate my life to him. I think the whole Christmas and Easter celebration has more to do with people’s insecurities of not blending in, because as EX JW’s they have been put into very uncomfortable positions for so long that they just want to celebrate it because it’s the norm. I am not trying to be judgmental, I just don’t understand why are these Holidays so important to people to celebrate?
Is there a religion out there that just worship an Almighty God and will not attempt to take your mind hostage. A religion that says prayers that won’t send me straight to a fiery hell if I don’t act right, or don’t hold the “last days” over my head to scare the heck out of me and keep me looking over my shoulder for the “4 winds of destruction”. (I really did like that picture in the Watchtower though!) I just want to pray with like minded people who aren’t uptight and hiding from the elders when they have a drink and not talk about me when I decide to guzzle a Margarita. My husband happen to be an “Inactive baptised” witness who just don’t go. When he found out I have decided to never go back, he seemed nervous! I think he was waiting for me to go back regularly and than he would be encouraged and follow me. Poor baby! With my husband, it helped because we never even wanted a Christmas Tree or anything of the kind even though we were way out on the outskirts of the Hall.
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Meredith J says:
September 20, 2015 at 12:52 am
Michelle, when I was a child, which was quite a long time ago I can tell you, the world was not as commercial as it is now. Christmas was actually a celebration of Christ’s birth. The tree and the presents were just part of it all. Mind you, we were always reminded of “the true meaning of Christmas”, even in the media. Giving and having time for others was to be given paramount importance on that day. Also going to church and later spending the day with family was also important.
Over the years, though it all changed. The commercial world made everyone forget the reason for the celebration. Now of course the world wants us to be totally irreligious. It’s all become politically correct now, so nobody but nobody hardly mentions the reason for celebrating it. The Bible does mention, I forget where that when Jesus would come, many would celebrate his birth. It doesn’t say that there is anything wrong with it. It just states it as a fact. Interpret it how you want but anyway for me personally, I don’t see anything wrong with celebrating the day. I guess it is all open to interpretation. If you have been a Witness all your life then I can undertand your trepidation, but I wouldn’t be getting all scared about it, like the Watchtower made us feel. I used to hate the way I had to not visit my family, who were not Witnesses on that day when everyone around me was celebrating. I just felt like a wet blanket. That’s Meredith’s feelings on the matter.
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Grace says:
September 21, 2015 at 3:40 pm
Michele,
I have thought about that too re; christmas being a big deal. Having been brought up a catholic, I had that as part of our family tradition for the first half of my life. My family is large & my parents hated the materialistic side of it, they just wanted the family to come together. It was the only time that everyone had off so it worked well for that. It was always so exciting to lead up to because everyone would come in from all over the country to stay at our humble country farm. It was a week of just being together with grandparent, siblings, grandchildren & often our friends that loved staying with us.
So my point is that, not all non-jw’s see it as a time to be ritualistic with the tree etc but a time to spend with each other. The thing that makes the WT so hypocritical is that they will cherry pick other pagan things to celebrate & say that it doesn’t mean the same as it did back then.
Just about everything we have has pagan roots. E.g. weddings, rings, virgin mother, son of god, days of the week, months, Sunday worship. I could go on & on but there are too many to mention. I think the Society just used those particular holidays because those celebrations are world renowned & to not get involved made their point of difference like any company does to highlight themselves.
For years my congregation used to have a traditional annual, “congregation-get-together” every Christmas day with either a bbq or party on Christmas night but justified it by saying that it was different because we know it’s not Jesus’ birthday. An Elders wife said to me that the congregation do it because it’s the only time of year that everyone has off. How does that not make them any different to the world?
I suppose what I’m saying is that when you have very little to participate in as a witness, this is just another thing that they have taken away & if families come together then it should be a good thing no matter what the root cause is. The Society just likes to keep that little wedge between families to keep control.
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 22, 2015 at 2:39 pm
@Grace . I like your Logic & Reasoning!! Always Really Good!
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 20, 2015 at 1:03 am
@ Lee ELVIN. I am just warming up LEE ! You Seem to like DEBATING on this SITE. You couldn’t DEBATE FREELY like this in the KINGDOM HALL you would be REPROVED! Great to have FREEDOM of EXPRESSION without FEAR of SHUNNING or DISFELLOWSHIPPING !!!
Reply
Ted says:
September 20, 2015 at 8:03 am
Meredith J,
I too regret the guilt I piled onto my kids, and how they missed
Out on a normal childhood. Never a Birthday party, having to
refuse a part in the Christmas play, isolated from the the other
children at morning assembly, indoctrinating them with puerile
rubbish. Instead of helping them with their education.
Not only did the kids miss out on many happy and harmless
occasions but we also missed the joy of sharing with them.
There’s no way to turn the clock back, life’s not a rehearsal,
but maybe other parents will learn from our mistake.
Best wishes, Ted.
Reply
Meredith J says:
September 20, 2015 at 3:57 pm
Let’s hope Ted. Yes, I find it very painful when I recall dragging our kids to all those exhausting meetings and denying the birthday parties. There was no point to it except to isolate them even further from their school friends. I hate how we brought our kids up. I was holier than thou in my approach. Thanks Ted. Once again I’m not alone in how I feel.
Reply
Winston Smith says:
September 20, 2015 at 9:46 am
I don’t think the GB are so much liars as they are suffering delusions of their own self importance. I am sure that they see any bending of the facts as fully justified. They themselves are victims of the same cult influence as the rest of us. Doesn’t excuse their actions of course.
Reply
Ted says:
September 20, 2015 at 10:41 am
Bad Penny,
There’s a total lack of humility with these men. They already
insist they’re divinely appointed despite a continual catalogue
of blunders, from Russell’s time up to the present.
I couldn’t believe Jacksons conceit and presumption, when a
question came up regarding Jesus opinion on the 2 witness
rule, and he replied, “He hoped to ask Jesus in the future”
( No modifying that with, If I prove worthy to ever meet him)
Yes the word “Delusion” I’m sure can accurately be applied here
And the corollary to that is mental disease, and often
“Megalomania” ( An obsession with the exercise of Power.)
And we can all testify to the truth of that.
Best wishes, Ted.
Reply
Rosie says:
September 20, 2015 at 11:32 am
Ted
I always love reading your comments and agree wholeheartedly with your common sense and logical sentiments.
Your lovely comment earlier on about women shows what a genuinely caring person you are. I for one truly appreciate and value your presence here on Cedars.
Rosie
Reply
Grace says:
September 21, 2015 at 4:20 pm
Rosie,
I agree with you wholeheartedly.
Ted you are a lovely man. I wish I knew you in person, we would have some great conversations.
Reply
Ted says:
September 20, 2015 at 2:00 pm
Rosie,
Thank you so much for your kind comment. I’m sure that
whenever any one of us posts here it’s in the hope that it
may help someone avoid the problems that we’ve been
through.
Lloyd and his associates have created for us, a balanced
forum where we are tolerant and respectful of each other,
and of each other’s views. And this is reflected in the
comments, I’ve noticed that if any fanatics visit, they don’t
hang around for very long.
I look forward to each ones comments, and miss ones who
are absent for a while. Relating to other friends here is
therapeutic for me and if by chance it helps someone else,
that’s an added reward.
Best Wishes, Ted.
,
Reply
ruthlee says:
September 22, 2015 at 1:48 am
hear hear rl
Reply
Peter Jeuck says:
September 21, 2015 at 8:38 pm
I watched the Jackson testimony and was many times infuriated at the obvious dodging and misdirection. I am astounded at what a monstrosity Watchtower has become over its many decades of existence. I was especially dumbfounded when Stewart handed Jackson an out on the two Witness rule. It was so clear and obvious that what Jackson said was true, i.e. that if Jesus had been asked about sexual abuse he might had referred back to the Deut. Case of a single woman in the field. Stewart nailed it… There was no question he was right, but Jackson evaded the point and by doing so outright rejected a perfectly great “Biblical” basis for modifying the two witness rule. I also was scratching my head over his claim about the numerous times the two witness rule is mentioned in the Bible. Is he referring to Gospel parallels where the same events are recorded by different Gospel writers? Because I don’t remember that this two witness rule is recorded in many other places/ times in the scriptures. But Jackson made it seem that it’s a key doctrinal point repeated many times and places in the Bible . I too found it humorous but pitiful that a secular lawyer could so readily out Bible a so called Bible “scholar.” A “scholar” with no doubt very limited formal education . Who no doubt having been baptized at age 13 , when compulsory school was finished went right into the ministry. Without formal education how could Jackson become expert at translation… Self taught? By denying themselves, and others in the religion, any higher education it’s easy to see how such individuals who claim expertise but really aren’t experts can back themselves into corners.
I’d be very interested in what the Commission’s official findings will be regarding the current state of the Society’s system of handling child abuse…hope it’s published, and relatively soon.
Reply
Ted says:
September 22, 2015 at 6:57 am
Grace,
I’m overwhelmed by your generous comment, I’m sure that if
we ever met, we would have some great conversations.
Although I’m more of a listener than a talker, my wife sometimes
says I’m a bit too quiet,
There’s some sagacious minds comment on this site, including
your own, and some who are very witty ( we all know who those
are, I’m smiling already) . So if we all did get together we’d have
some great laughs as well as stimulating conversations.
Until then Grace I’ll look forward to your future contributions here.
Best wishes, Ted.
Reply
ruthlee says:
September 22, 2015 at 2:51 pm
hi all i started to write a bit but it got lost in the ether I think, hope it doesn’t turn up later anyway. Ted, I wanted to comment on your point about being cautious in a difficult situation is not cowardice but good sense. I agree with you wholeheartedly when family don’t see things the way you do there is this grey wall. I’m finding being trapped in the tower excruciating right now.Putting on a brave face is so damn exhausting. My dad used to say “This too will pass” and that is true but living in this half way house is not healthy. One response to a post of mine mentioned two worlds colliding and that is how it feels.A head on collision is looming. We come to this site to express our feelings and there is great camarderie and support. I think tonight I feel angry at being duped, annoyed at being trapped,depressed that I cant run away, and dissappointed that I have to be patient .Feeling more of a hypocrite than ever.During the prayer i say my own or i will scream .JB Reezer will be pleased i played Iron Maiden at full blast in the car coming home YES i want to run to the hills right now. Isuppose all of this is fallout from being in a stupid cult that I thought was a valid faith and it all comes to naught.so Ted im trying to act with caution and appreciate your kind words. Thanks all of you out there.ruthlee
Reply
Tara says:
September 22, 2015 at 7:24 pm
Mmmm Iron Maiden….
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 23, 2015 at 8:17 am
@Tara . IRON MAIDEN!! Are you Referring to STEPHEN LETTS??
Reply
J.B. Reezner says:
September 22, 2015 at 8:44 pm
ruthlee, I wish so much that your situation was better. The damn insidious nature of this cult is the worst part. There are so many things that make it nearly impossible to leave once you are in it’s clutches, especially, as in your case, if you have family entrenched in it.
It can be very surreal. You see with perfect clarity how this cannot conceivably be the Truth. In fact, once you have an open mind, it’s not even a CHALLENGE to see that. That’s one of the most frustrating parts: the fact that REALITY is just one simple decision away from all of the people you care about– the decision to be open-minded. If they can just get to that point, then they will find a mountain of evidence waiting for them.
I hope you can find a way to freedom. I hope the best path presents itself in a very clear way to you, soon. Remember (I know you know this, but I’ll say it anyway), we’re not just words on a screen. We here are REAL people. Nearly all of us have suffered VERY MUCH at the hands of the same enemy. We really do care about you and we will support you now, and when you make your move when the time becomes right for it. And I appreciate the support you give US with your ALWAYS-enjoyable comments. Thanks for being a part of this thing, ruthlee. I appreciate you.
Reply
J.B. Reezner says:
September 22, 2015 at 8:47 pm
ruthlee, I wish so much that your situation was better. The damn insidious nature of this cult is the worst part. There are so many things that make it nearly impossible to leave once you are in it’s clutches, especially, as in your case, if you have family entrenched in it.
It can be very surreal. You see with perfect clarity how this cannot conceivably be the Truth. In fact, once you have an open mind, it’s not even a CHALLENGE to see that. That’s one of the most frustrating parts: the fact that REALITY is just one simple decision away from all of the people you care about– the decision to be open-minded. If they can just get to that point, then they will find a mountain of evidence waiting for them.
I hope you can find a way to freedom. I hope the best path presents itself in a very clear way to you, soon. Remember (I know you know this, but I’ll say it anyway), we’re not just words on a screen. We here are REAL people. Nearly all of us have suffered VERY MUCH at the hands of the same enemy. We really do care about you and we will support you now, and when you make your move when the time becomes right for it. And I appreciate the support you give US with your ALWAYS very enjoyable comments. Thanks for being a part of this thing, ruthlee. I appreciate you.
Reply
Idontknowhatodo says:
September 23, 2015 at 12:49 am
I agree with everything you say ruthlee….and the comforting words from Ted…jb…excelsior and yourself make me feel so much better about the route Im taking…I think my position is very similair to yours as your words resonate with me when I read them…I have however lost all faith and am happier for it….I fade because of my trapped situation…I would love to just walk away but the consequences I would have to face would kill me…thanks to you and this little community I do not feel alobe anymore..
Reply
Andros says:
September 22, 2015 at 7:17 pm
Here we go!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34327041
Reply
ruthlee says:
September 23, 2015 at 2:26 am
if this repeats sorry computer clapped out! Aah! sweetness and light to all.I will keep you posted on progress. Does anyone feel overwhelmingly disappointed? I can live with apocalypse delayed but I can’t abide the deceit! If the UN are the beast as WT interpret why oh why would we form any alliance with them?We the duped hitched a ride without consent or being informed that feels like being trafficked.So being found out why again were we not informed as to the reasons why .We dont expect any apology from such arrogant fools, just to come clean.Or if they realised the interpretation in Rev was wrong, and it was alright now to be a part of that organisation, again why were we not informed?It throws up so much more as to their interpretation of scripture which frankly I think is way off beam let alone light getting brighter. If we were allianced to a genuine part of Satan’s nasty org then they have a lot of explaining to do when they do meet their maker! All the little sheep could have been ripped open and no one would know why. So any GB member perusing this site thats my thought for today. Just be honest Stop making fools of youselves. Our voices get stronger daily and you cannot stop it.TELL THE TRUTH
Reply
anonymous says:
September 23, 2015 at 5:21 am
Dear ruthlee and Idontknowwhattodo, I am in the same position as you are but I haven’t gone to a meeting in about a year and half but have not been disfellowshipped yet but I do feel preemptive shunning but some are still not afraid to talk to me when they call my husband on the phone. I came right out and told the elders that I don’t believe the Governing Body or the Watchtower are run by God. I was not afraid to tell them that and I told them about 607 and the U.N. etc.
If I get a chance to talk to the elders or anybody else who will talk to me this is what I will do, have them read Numbers chapter 31 out loud and then ask them at the end of that reading “and tell me why do you worship that God?”
That has to be one of the worst descriptions of any God that I would worship and anybody with an ounce of brains has to see it too. I would turn it on them and have them tell me why I should worship that God, instead of me having to explain why I “left the truth”.
Reply
FadingFast says:
September 23, 2015 at 5:53 am
New article by Trey Bundy, impressive insights into the insular mindset of the organization.
https://www.revealnews.org/article/jehovahs-witnesses-can-hide-the-truth-in-court-to-protect-religion/
Reply
Ted says:
September 23, 2015 at 7:03 am
picked brain, JB Reezner, Ruth,L, Meredith J ,
A film I enjoyed some time back was, “The School of Rock”
and the lead actor told the kids in the school that Rock was
about “Sticking it to the Man”
So when you all were listening to these bands, considered
rebellious and definitely on the taboo list, I guess you were
sticking it to the org. They never had you right down, that
Maverick spirit wouldn’t be smothered.
A bit late in life for me perhaps ! But from now on. Anyone
who wants to dominate and control me, I’m gonna follow
your example, and just “Stick it to em.”
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 23, 2015 at 8:13 am
@Ted . NICE ONE !!! YEAH STICK IT TO THEM.!! Ted COULD YOU DO ME a FAVOUR & give me your opinion on my Reasoning on MY POST on this site under David SPLANE Explains ‘GENERATION ‘
It is HIS USE of JOSEPH at Exodus 1v6 which I think is BIG BIG MISTAKE by the GB?
Reply
anonymous says:
September 23, 2015 at 9:12 am
Hi Pickled brain. I read your comment and I still don’t understand. I don’t know if it’s because I am “slow” or what. Can you explain it more? Thanks
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 23, 2015 at 10:10 am
@ Anonymous.Thanks for taking the time to read as I & many here appreciate the research & information you provide.. Well Joseph & his 11 Brothers were BORN within 30 years of each other & DIED within 30 years of each other UNLIKE Fred Franz & Mark Sanderson ! Hope that helps
Reply
J.B. Reezner says:
September 23, 2015 at 2:23 pm
Thanks Ted, that movie is a favorite of mine. I’ve watched it several times. At times, while still in, I had a wee bit of “stick-it-to-the-man-eosis” (you know the scene I mean), but mainly it was after I left that I fully reunited with all of the harmless, enjoyable things that I had sworn off. So I’m with YOU in admiring the ones who were strong-willed enough to do it while still engulfed by the cult with all of its judgmental nonsense.
Reply
Spike says:
September 23, 2015 at 9:01 am
Let me get this straight. To be appointed by the GB, you must be considered “anointed” by the current GB. You must also have a record of “full time” service according to the extra-biblical “works” set out by the GB.
To be “spiritually mature”, one must comply with these decrees from the GB. I would also imagine that any “anointed” ones who disagree with the GB would quickly be “considered” as mere “professed anointed.”
With such an internal policing mindset, is it any wonder the WTBTS finds themselves in legal trouble? Their legalistic behavior for over a century has reaped bitter fruit, and the harvest is not over. When the foxes guard the hen house, there will be casualties.
Reply
Ted says:
September 23, 2015 at 11:53 am
Pickled brain I’ve put put my thoughts regarding Ex 1-6 on the
Splane Generation thread. By the way, my wife loves your comments,
I can always tell when she gets to one of yours on the iPad ,
She starts to chuckle, and says, That Pickled Brain Makes me laugh.
It’s always nice to have ones spouse in a good humour, thanks PB
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 23, 2015 at 3:25 pm
@TED . THANK You for Your KIND WORDS & YOUR LOVELY WIFE I must SAY She Has an INCREDIBLE ASTUTE TASTE in MEN!! …,YOU of COURSE, TED !!!
Reply
Ted says:
September 23, 2015 at 1:27 pm
Good reasoning pickled brain, Joseph and his brothers
we’re of the same generation fathered by the same man.
over a 30 year period.
Attempting to define a generation by linking “Anointed ”
ones born over a 72 year span is a desperation measure.
Fred Franz 1893—- Mark Sanderson 1965. That would
cover, my grandfather, my father, myself and my son,
4 generations in all.
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 23, 2015 at 3:37 pm
@Ted . YEP ..72 Years from when Franz was born to when Mark Sanderson… SO NO WAY are these TWO PYGMIES of the SAME GENERATION… OVERLAPPING Maybe by about 3 GENERATIONS, BUT DEFINITELY NOT of the SAME GENERATION & JESUS At Matthew 24v.34 Definitely only spoke of SINGULAR ‘ONE GENERATION ‘!!! IThink David SPLANE will have NEW LIGHT & Maybe we will have a PYRAMID RE-CALCULATION!!
Reply
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