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David Splane explains the overlapping generation teaching (without actually explaining it)
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Posted on September 10, 2015
David Splane grapples with the "overlapping generation" teaching in a new video
David Splane grapples with the “overlapping generation” teaching in a new video
The September JW Broadcasting episode is now available on tv.jw.org, and for any avid follower of goings-on at Watchtower this month’s offering from the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ is a must-watch.
Governing Body member David Splane addresses his audience on one of the many subjects best swept under the rug by Watchtower – the incomprehensible “overlapping generation” teaching.
Simply put, this teaching (which first appeared in the April 15, 2010 Watchtower) is a hastily-contrived get-out-of-jail-free card for the failed 1914 “this generation” teaching.
For decades Watchtower publications insisted that Armageddon was imminent because, they argued, the generation of anointed Witnesses (who believed they were going to heaven) who witnessed and understood the events of 1914 would not die out before Armageddon arrived.
This claim was based on Matthew 24:34, where Jesus told his followers that the generation that witnessed various apocalyptic signs would not die out until all his words, including the “great tribulation” (the prelude to Armageddon), came true.
So certain was Watchtower of this claim that it even had it included in its masthead for the Awake! magazine…
awake-page-4-generation-masthead-oct-1995-tn
That is, until they quietly changed the masthead to read as follows…
awake-page-4-masthead-nov-1995-tn
Increasingly it became obvious that Watchtower’s self-imposed time limit on Armageddon had expired, because too much time had passed since 1914 for there to be any survivors among Jehovah’s Witnesses old enough to have memories of the outbreak of World War I. In fact, at the time of writing in September 2015, only 50 individuals older than 110 years old are known to still be alive.
“New light” was called for, and in 1995 and 2008 the organization made various stabs at squaring the circle. Paul Grundy has done a great job of documenting these fluctuating “understandings” on his JWfacts resource.
The most recent solution, as proposed by Watchtower in 2010 (and regurgitated by Splane in the above clip), is to essentially embellish Jesus’ words by suggesting that “this generation” doesn’t have to be just one generation, but can be two.
The first “group” of “this generation” would witness and understand the events of 1914, and the second group would be those who were born before the last individuals in the first group died (hence an “overlapping” generation).
If you don’t understand this, it is not due to any failure on your part. It is because it doesn’t make sense. The teaching rides roughshod over the English language, redefining what “generation” means, and relying on the audience to willfully bypass their logical thinking skills by asserting the incomprehensible as indisputable truth.
After all, if you can arbitrarily insist that a generation can be composed of two groups, why not have three, four, five – on into infinity? The word “generation” quickly loses all meaning.
The wisest course of action for Watchtower would have been to either distance itself from the “overlapping generation” teaching as a well-meaning slip-up (perhaps by arguing “this generation” was figurative rather than literal), or ignore the matter altogether.
Instead, the Governing Body apparently concluded that a 12-minute video presentation rehashing the teaching, complete with diagram and stick pointer, was just what the doctor ordered.
Their mistake is an inevitable byproduct of their delusion and bullish devotion to their own contrived dogma. It is, to my mind, further proof that the Governing Body are not cynical con-men but really do believe their own nonsense – and expect us to believe it too. Otherwise, they would have steered clear of the subject entirely, and spoken about something more compelling and universally appealing.
In addition to this obvious faux pas, I am also delighted at David Splane’s performance, which wreaked of cheesiness and insincerity…
As a side note – Splane is among three Governing Body members (together with Herd and Losch) who have apparently opted to deliver their JW Broadcasting episodes alongside “helpers” from the various Governing Body committees. The other Governing Body members (Lett, Morris, Sanderson and Jackson) tend to appear by themselves. I can’t help but question Splane’s decision to appear with a co-host, since he is in my view one of the more competent, persuasive speakers on the Governing Body. His uneasy interactions with his co-host only serve to undo the forcefulness of his individual presentation.
A costly mistake
When JW Broadcasting was first announced 11 months ago I said at the time it was great news. The worst thing the Governing Body could possibly do was reveal themselves to their doting followers. It is far easier to respect and admire your leaders when you can’t see or hear them. Having them thrusted at your TV screen or computer monitor in all their bumbling, arrogant, senile, jewelry-flashing glory changes the whole dynamic.
Yes, we have seen some extremely potent pieces of indoctrination designed to pull on the heart strings and appeal to people’s emotions. The standard episode will feature at least one visually appealing interview segment with powerful imagery and stirring music, in which a loyal Witness tears up as he or she relates how Jehovah’s hand has come to their rescue against all odds.
I will continue to do my best to expose these clearly coercive methods in my JW Broadcasting rebuttal videos. But I am growing increasingly confident that to any sincere, intellectually honest Witness capable of rudimentary reasoning skills, no rebuttals are needed. The delusion, absurdity and self-indulgence speaks for itself.
new-cedars-signature3
Further reading…
◾Friendly Atheist article
◾To see a list of video rebuttals to JW Broadcasting episodes, click here.
◾To read the JWfacts page on changes to the generation teaching, click here.
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← Inducing phobias: How the Watchtower uses irrational fears to solidify membership
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275 Responses to David Splane explains the overlapping generation teaching (without actually explaining it)
Newer Comments →
Kat says:
September 10, 2015 at 3:33 am
please exsplane
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Excelsior! says:
September 10, 2015 at 7:51 am
Kat,
You made my day with that wonderful pun!
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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Rowland Nelken says:
September 10, 2015 at 3:39 am
There have been court cases and govt. pronouncements in Russia recently in attempts to restrict the ministry of JWs in this country.
Despite this, when I click on the JW Broadcasting link, here in Moscow, I receive the full array of glossy and expensive JW stupidity complete with Russian text and Russian dubbed vids.
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dontknowwheretogo says:
September 10, 2015 at 3:46 am
I completely agree with you on that they believe 100% that they are chosen by God…they are full-in…as Don Cameron says in his excellent book “Captives to a Concept” they are held captive to the concept that they are 100% chosen by God thus WHATEVER explanation or doctrine they produce has God’s backing, period.
Delusional or what.
As a side note on the many discussions going on about this on various forums the overlapping generation explanation given by Splane with charts that include Freddy Franz is interesting in that it cites 1992 as the cut off for the first group.
Splane also says ALL current GB members are part of the second group that overlapped Franz thus Mark Sanderson, at age 50, is part of the second group thus he must have proclaimed being anointed prior to 1992.
And if they teach that the Big A will come in the second group’s lifetime and IF Mark Sanderson lives to 80 or 90 then the Big A can be another 30 to 40 years away without the GB having the need to change the current overlapping generation teaching.
Clever.
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JJ says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:08 am
Yes Dontknowwheretogo, the GB believe that anything that comes out of their own mouths must be from God. Not only the GB, but a lot of the elders too. I remember seeing it on the faces of some of those buffoons, after they said something they would have these self-assured smug look and you could hear the salient thought going through their primitive brian; I just said that! It must be true!
It’s unfortunate that they hurt so many trusting followers but it is satisfying to see themselves get taken in by their own lies.
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John Chapman says:
September 10, 2015 at 3:48 pm
The 144,000 is Jesus. Jesus = Yesus or Yes us, the 144,000. The Teragrammaton is Yahweh not “Jehovah” Jehovah is Barack Obama, genetic offspring of Aton aka Akhenaton (tetra (4) gram (measure) aton. The 4 measures of ATON (Akhenaton). YHWH is YaHuWeHe(r), the 144,000 elect Gods and Goddesses. The JW’s are like a broken clock; wrong most of the time but right twice a day. Russell was right, only 100 years early. Rutherford was a Vatican Jesuit infiltrator. The Watchtower is the tip if the spear for the communist NWO. Get out of Her My people…ALL of it…JC of the 144,000 an EX JW…
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anonymous says:
September 10, 2015 at 3:57 am
As crazy as it sounds, I look forward to every new jwbroadcast because they reinforce in me that I made the right decision to leave because so far, every one seems so very stupid and condescending to me.
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Jill says:
September 10, 2015 at 9:33 am
Well said
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John freeman says:
September 11, 2015 at 4:35 am
I am fading after 50 years in jw . And find it incredible that they are still trying to make this fit .it obviously only appied to the events of A D 70 etc . They have now abandoned the type and antitype so that the whole interpretation of matt 24 could be in question
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John freeman says:
September 11, 2015 at 4:56 am
I dont understand why they dont just drop the generation explanations .they have got it wrong so many time the whole thing has become untenable . I asked my wife if she wanted to watch the broadcast . She said she never understood the previous explanation so she didnt wana see this one she been in since 60s like me. Im sure many jws would rather not go on about it . Wr discussed it she thinks it applied in first centry .
But not now it doesent make sense anymore . Why dont they just admit they got it wrong
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Tam Emers says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:01 am
Another great article, Cedars. As you wrote about how JW Broadcasting brings the leadership to the spotlight instead of allowing them to remain in the shadows, I was struck by the comparison to a recent visit to the Nazi Documentation Center in Nuremberg, Germany. This center documents the rise of the Nazi Party prior to the beginning of the Second World War. Virtually from the time that the Nazi Party took leadership, Hitler was kept away from the common people. He would appear from a far-off podium, from a high balcony, from an armored car. His interactions with the people were limited, the reason given in the museum was that the Nazi Party wanted to cultivate the myth of ‘a benevolent Father figure, who was slaving away and working at the expense of his own health and well-being for the prosperity of the German people.’ I’ve listened to some of Hitler’s speeches and it is obvious that he was a powerful and compelling orator, but the world also knows he was crazy. Perhaps the ‘Father’ myth was also a way to keep the general population from discovering just how crazy he was.
It will be interesting to see how the spotlight changes the rank-and-file membership’s view of the Governing Body. Will the myth of benevolent leadership, of the Faithful ‘Fathers’ of the Organization working their fingers to the bone at the expense of their own health and well-being for the betterment of God’s people, hold up? I agree with you, that these men believe what they are preaching, which makes it so chillingly powerful. And scary.
One point of vocabulary: I would use the term ‘critical thinking’ rather than ‘logical thinking’, it is a bit more accurate way to describe the thinking process you are writing of. 😀
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Cedars says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:13 am
Thanks for your observations Tam. I chose “logical thinking” over “critical thinking” deliberately. 😉
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dontknowwheretogo says:
September 10, 2015 at 5:29 am
Very clever cedars, it this kind of thing that can draw in still-ins…I applaud this.
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Cedars says:
September 10, 2015 at 5:33 am
“Draw in?” I prefer “help out.” :)
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Robertperez says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:16 pm
Critical thinking, would be more in lines of making a decision, doing the math before giving an answer. Logical thinking would be reasoning as to the need to do things the way your doing them. Neither need apply to the absolute distorting of scripture we see here. Proverbs 30:5,6 ” Every saying of God is refined. He is a shield to those taking refuge in him. Add NOTHING to his words, Or he will reprove you, And you will be proved a LIAR.” ——-copied and pasted straight from silver sword.—–
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Happyface says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:05 am
If only they could go back and double-check those Giza-pyramid measurements before making so many prophesies based on it.
A modern visionary of similar spirit had explained how such paradoxes (two generations being one) is perfectly possible. Its called Infinite Improbability. Research Douglas Adams. He too has quite a cult following and was able to breach most logical barriers in a perfectly valid and acceptable manner.
Do not be surprised to see the religion soon explode from a collection of 8-million psuedosheep to an infinite number of penguins.
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al etheredge says:
September 10, 2015 at 9:58 am
Great point. After extensive research conducted over a span of 15 seconds, I am certain that the angle on the left of the parallelogram (8:58 on video) precisely corresponds to the angle of the faces of the great pyramid. It all makes sense now (head impacts desk).
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Robertperez says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:29 pm
If it weren’t for the physical books out there in the thousands, they would deny the entire pyramid debacle, hence Rutherford cleaning house only to make his own false prophecies in the 20’s, when the membership started to speak up shunning was created to deal with those waking up. A few more prophecies later and culminating in all those waking up after the 1975 episode, we get the Ray Franz generation of awakenings. As you can see by this article the false prophecies have not stopped and in the eyes of those of us who believe in Gods word, neither has the name given to those who claim God will do something and then he doesn’t.
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Happyface says:
September 10, 2015 at 10:33 pm
I am exceedingly privileged to have come into the Christ having left the Jehovah’s Witnesses. I hope the same happens to those also who have been wounded.
In the words of James White ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru3GbBB_pIs ) many who leave the JWs never recover and end up as the “spiritually abused”. Its my hope that many who have been hurt can one day find the true comfort that is in Jesus.
Jesus is very different than what the JWs have portrayed. That religion is such a small spec in the history of apostacies and most insignificant in the shadow of the true shepherd.
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JJ says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:21 am
I agree with you Cedars! I couldn’t believe that JW Broadcasting (or any other form of JW-dumb) would attempt to explain this teaching(?) or whatever else you call the ‘overlapping generation’.
I’ve been out for a while but when I was ‘in’ a few years ago, I never heard anyone talk about the overlapping generation or even the ‘adjustment’ to the generation thing. It felt like we all just wanted to ignore it since the big change in 1995, or whenever it was. Growing up, the generation of 1914 was a huge doctrine for all of us Jehovah’s Witnesses but it felt like it became an embraces net in the last couple of decades (has it been that long already?!?)
Why the Governing Body would feel the need to go over this just staggers my imagination!!! Regular Jehovah’s Witnesses seem to be smart enough to not talk about it, why would their leaders not realize that no one wants to touch this ‘hot potato’???
I love charts and graphs but this diagram was the most stupid thing that I’ve ever seen! It makes no sense! In fact, when I first saw the still shot of David Splaine with his pointer I thought it was a doctored (photoshopped) picture. That’s how ridiculous it looked. (How do you tell a moron that he’s a moron? I guess that you just can’t).
If this month’s broadcasting doesn’t wake up a few thousand people to get out of the JW World then I guess my estimation for human intelligence will just have to be taken down another notch or two.
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Scrubmaster says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:26 am
I always find the overlapping generation funny. Jesus used illustrations his audience of that time could easily understand. Some how I can not see the people Jesus was talking to sitting together and saying to themselves, wait a minute is\was Jesus talking about our generation or a generation which is overlapping with ours? :-)
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Anonymous says:
September 10, 2015 at 9:15 am
You mean this didn’t happen?
http://i.imgur.com/j9wjYEa.jpg
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Scrubmaster says:
September 10, 2015 at 12:00 pm
@ Anonymous – that jpg is hilarious! LOL!
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Idontknowhatodo says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:29 am
This has the air of desperation about it…..
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Nemorino says:
September 10, 2015 at 5:07 am
As the leading JW doctrinician, it appears Splane had to face the music when it came to publicly explain the inexplicable, to defend the indefensible; he drew the short straw.
Can you imagine the reaction to this by an uninitiated audience in a public forum?
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EverydayExplorer says:
September 10, 2015 at 5:33 am
My sentiments too, Nemorino.
What dreadful patronising bilge from yet another GB member.
These words are so far away from a belief in a loving creator. Notice the flippant way he flings away words like ‘famines’, ‘wars’, etc, as if these terms do not signify unimaginable suffering for human beings.
I try not to get overwhelmed by sadness at the cruelty this WT Soc disseminates, but sometimes it’s hard. Then I remember that those of us who are not under its thrall have the power and commitment to keep spotlighting its heinous propaganda. I’m going to keep fighting.
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Robertperez says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:35 pm
God bless, Explorer.
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Jaak says:
September 10, 2015 at 6:48 am
They would swallow it.
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Baby says:
September 10, 2015 at 6:53 am
every truth is like light, its brightness is becoming brighter over time.
(Proverbs 4:18) But the path of the righteous is like the bright morning light That grows brighter and brighter until full daylight
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Excelsior! says:
September 10, 2015 at 7:57 am
Baby,
Welcome back again!
I am still waiting for answers to my questions on a previous topic, please.
Your comment makes no sense. Either something is true or it isn’t.
The scripture in Proverbs you quoted is not talking about Divine Inspiration, but contrasts a righteous with an unrighteous man. What was your point? Simply throwing a scripture down is just not sufficient.
Have you read my comment about Matthew1:17, Baby? What are your thoughts on it?
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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Max says:
September 10, 2015 at 9:10 pm
Baby, your god channel uses Prov. 4:18 as an excuse, period. 100 years from now (and think about it, because the overlapping generation could be another 100 years or more…) they will still be using it. Jesus was an end times preacher, just like the WT is. Do you honestly believe that he was hyping the end times to his live audience knowing that the end would not be for another 1900 plus years? That is what you are inadvertently consenting to believing. If so, then your precious GB could be doing the same thing, stringing you along, hyping the “end of days” in order to gain more converts.
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Robertperez says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:33 pm
ROFL- He drew the short straw
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Excelsior! says:
September 10, 2015 at 5:16 am
Folks,
The definition of a generation is provided in Matthew 1: 17
According to this, there were 14 generations from the Babylonian exile to the birth of Jesus.
If we take the WTBTS’ erroneous date of 607, we count back to 1. 607 divided by 14 is 43.357142 for one generation.
So, if the morons in the WTBTS are correct, Armageddon should have been and gone in 1957!
If we take the correct year for the Banylonian exile of 589, we get a generation of just over 42 years!
Jesus said that the generation who he preached to would see the destruction of Jerusalem, and they did. These events fit into the time frame set out in Matthew 1.
The WTBTS have only themselves to blame! This verse is very easy to calculate from. There is no excuse for their stupid beliefs.
I stole this from Spike R on you tube!
I thought that these governing body members were supposed to be bible scholars? What a joke they all are!
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
Markw1509 says:
September 10, 2015 at 9:47 am
Oh, so true, Excelsior! Thank you for that so basic, so simple reasoning. But it means the R&F have to think for themselves, something they’re not capable of doing. So so glad I can live a life that isn’t under the control of the seven popes.
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Malachi says:
September 10, 2015 at 5:46 am
This is the first time I’ve felt compelled to actually watch one of these broadcasts. It was this whole incomprehensible, contrived redefinition of the word ‘generation’ that broke the camel’s back for me, the redefinition of the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ drove the final nails in the coffin. I asked a friend who has been in Bethel for many years what he thought of it and he shook his head and said ‘who knows’. It should be plainly obvious to any thinking person that if you need to use the word ‘generation’ twice in the definition of the word ‘generation’ something is off. Another fine analysis of the nonsense that the ‘slave’ is force-feeding the blinded, delusional masses. Never lose sight of the fact that we were there once, real truth wants to be heard and hopefully it is only a matter of time when it is all so obvious (like it isn’t already?) that the mass exodus begins. Thanks for your hard work Lloyd!
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Ted says:
September 10, 2015 at 6:08 am
The boat has sunk and they’re flailing about like drowning men,
looking for any piece of the wreck to hang on to.
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Baby says:
September 10, 2015 at 6:52 am
every truth is like light, its brightness is becoming brighter over time.
(Proverbs 4:18) But the path of the righteous is like the bright morning light That grows brighter and brighter until full daylight
Reply
Cedars says:
September 10, 2015 at 7:32 am
Baby, I hate to break it to you but Proverbs 4:18 has nothing to do with prophetic understanding or even reading the bible. In fact there is no bible verse that sets a precedent for God telling his worshipers something that isn’t true merely to tide them over until truth is later revealed.
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Baby says:
September 10, 2015 at 6:43 am
I think you don’t understand nothink at all what Spane said or explain. You only oppose but you understand not. Can you show one verse that contradicts what he said?
You can say the interpretations are not truth, ok, but can you show what you say from the Bible?
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Baby says:
September 10, 2015 at 6:48 am
every truth is like light, its brightness is becoming brighter over time
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Pickled brain says:
September 10, 2015 at 6:57 am
@Baby . CAN YOU SHOW IN The BIBLE Where GENERATION MEANS OVERLAPPING????
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anonymous says:
September 10, 2015 at 7:07 am
Baby, I have been in the “truth” for fifty years and I have been keeping up with all the new “light” so can you explain it better than Splane because no, I don’t get it. Obviously you are a whole lot smarter than we are so please explain it so we can understand the overlapping generation and how anybody who was “anointed” by 1992 means that as long as they were anointed by 1992 (or thereabouts) then they fit into the overlapping generations and that means that the Great Tribulation means that it’s about to happen any minute now.
Don’t accuse us of being so stupid that we can’t understand it when you can. Please explain it to us then.
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David says:
September 10, 2015 at 7:19 am
1 Timothy 1:4
or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work–which is by faith.
JW are trying to teach things that are reserved to God showing no respect to God
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Pickled brain says:
September 10, 2015 at 9:25 am
@Baby . YOUR VOCABULARY & GRAMMAR ARE APPALLING!! Where in the Oxford English Dictionary does it contain the word ‘NOTHINK’
Then Again I suppose I should expect this Illogical thinking & Spelling from a SUPPORTER of The GB!!!
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Robertperez says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:42 pm
You forget they are now pushing for home schooling jw youth, lest they be exposed critical thinking and logic. Watchtower 33:78 skool bad boogymen brain big make.
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Searcher says:
September 10, 2015 at 10:08 am
@Baby,
I’m not going to attack your belief or your grammer, but I do want you to think about the following.
The passage in Proverbs Chapter 4 that is often referred to and used so much by the Watchtower leadership is not used in context by the Watchtower. The WT leadership uses a portion of this scripture, not the whole scripture, to reconcile mistakes and lies. The WHOLE scripture when read in context (reading the whole paragraph in which it is contained) is referring to a wise man using wisdom and a fool not heading wisdom. The passage DOES NOT refer to knowledge given in small doses and knowledge that changes over time. Read the whole paragraph and you’ll see what I’m talking about.
With that, understand I am not trying to prove you wrong, but want you to see how the GB and WT leadership use pieces and parts of scripture to deceive the rank and file membership.
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Robertperez says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:45 pm
It’s because your reading the (a) portion of the verse, the (b) is not to be read or the argument falls apart, come on! All speakers know this.
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Mary says:
September 10, 2015 at 10:41 am
Baby asked: “Can you show one verse that contradicts what he said?”
Well actually ya I can. Matthew 24:34 says “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”
Can you show us one verse where Jesus said this “overlapping generation will not pass away”?
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just asking says:
September 10, 2015 at 6:46 am
Yes, how can you be the boss and hide behind curtains as your subjects enjoy the limelight. They just couldn’t stand it. It was simply too much. Now they’re trying to make an appearance everywhere for conventions.
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Baby says:
September 10, 2015 at 6:50 am
every truth is like light, its brightness is becoming brighter over time.
(Proverbs 4:18) But the path of the righteous is like the bright morning light That grows brighter and brighter until full daylight
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Pickled brain says:
September 10, 2015 at 7:01 am
@BABY . THE GB DARKNESS is GETTING DARKER & DARKER !!! LITTLE BABY PROVERB ???
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Excelsior! says:
September 10, 2015 at 8:03 am
Baby,
Simply quoting the same discredited bible passage at people will convince no one of your opinion!
How about your opinion on Matthew 1:17 instead of repetitious comments? You asked us to prove FROM THE BIBLE that Mr Splane is incorrect. I quote FROM THE BIBLE and I would appreciate a response from you on this scripture, NOT another misapplication of a Proverb!
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
I’m afraid that none of us are convinced of your point of view!
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Malachi says:
September 10, 2015 at 3:46 pm
Stop feeding the troll! Since when has any self-respecting true believer JW been capable of critical thinking or logical deduction at any level? ‘Baby’ may as well be a machine, all ‘Baby’ is capable of is parroting the same little phrase over and over like every other JW who is confronted with an unanswerable question or problem that might cause intelligent thought in any other reasonable person capable of thinking without being told what to think. Thought control at its finest!
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Becky says:
September 10, 2015 at 11:28 pm
or in the words of Timbuk3 “The future’s so bright, I gotta wear shades”
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chris benson says:
September 10, 2015 at 6:59 am
Thanks Lloyd another very good article.
Hmmm next time i pass JW cart i get them to try and explain this – its probably a dreaded question that a lot of JWs dont really want
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David says:
September 10, 2015 at 7:16 am
I understand that with time you get better understanding but in the JW case their overlapping generation teaching is outright lie.
Where in the Bible Jesus refers to overlapping generations?
Common sense and Bible knowledge tells that a generation is a period of 37-40 years. So instead that humbly saying that they were wrong they distort deliberately Jesus words over and over again. Shame on the GB!
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Nilsson says:
September 10, 2015 at 7:27 am
There are no such a thing as “The end of the world” as the Jw´s and other totalitarian Cults believe!
Keep yourselves like men who are watching for their master to return from the marriage feast so that, when he comes and knocks, you may quickly open to him. Such watchful servants are blessed by the master who finds them faithful at such a great moment. Then will the master make his servants sit down while he himself serves them. Verily, verily, I say to you that a crisis is just ahead in your lives, and it behooves you to watch and be ready.
“You well understand that no man would suffer his house to be broken into if he knew what hour the thief was to come. Be you also on watch for yourselves, for in an hour that you least suspect and in a manner you think not, shall the Son of Man depart.”
Urantia Book, Paper 165.
Thats right, the Son of man would depart, NOT arrive at this moment. Even though he said he would come again, it certainly will not have to do with “the end of the world” as fundamental Christians believe!
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David says:
September 10, 2015 at 7:31 am
The list of end time predictions and apocalyptic charlatans is huge.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events
The JW are probably the ones with the most failures. All this failures indicates that they are not spirit directed but they are presumptuous.
Deuteronomy 18:22
If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
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DavidR says:
September 10, 2015 at 8:06 am
Side Note: I got stumped when he said that a baby that was born 10 minutes after Joseph died did not live at the same time. I thought JW’s were big on life beginning at inception? So wouldn’t someone who died 10 minutes before Joseph was born or 10 minutes after he died still be part of this generation?
I am stumbled because now the Governing Body doesn’t believe that a baby is alive in the mother’s womb when clearly the scriptures talk about how John the Baptizer leaped in the womb!
Reply
FadingFast says:
September 10, 2015 at 8:37 am
I just want to know what the possible significance is of the diagonally-oriented candy stripes on the chart. Why not vertical? Is the sixty-degree angle a throwback to pyramid geometry? Ha! When was the last time you saw timelines that overlapped in this manner?
Reply
eyes opened says:
September 10, 2015 at 8:42 am
Okay I’m having a moment of silliness here,
So let me get “this” straight…”this” doesn’t mean what I thought “this” meant. I thought “this” meant “to identify a specific person or thing close at hand or being indicated or experienced”. Bro. Splane says “this” generation is something we have to figure out who “this” is. I guess the GB has the authority to change dictionary definitions…haha. So “this” comment is written on “this” blog and “this” is the end. Let the reader use discernment, haha.
Reply
Nemorino says:
September 10, 2015 at 8:53 am
Into which generation would Splane assign someone born AFTER Joseph but who predeceases him?
Reply
Lol says:
September 10, 2015 at 8:58 am
Hey since my parents were in their 20’s and part of the “hippie generation ” I guess since I am alive At the same time as them. I MUST BE PART OF THE HIPPIE GENERATION ? Anyone with half a brain knows that a “generation ” is a spell of time when something or someone was prominent . And for a person it is the main part of their life (20-60 yrs old) I was alive when Elvis was still alive , but I certainly was not part of the “Elvis generation “, no, those people around his age and enjoying his music when he was in his heyday , ARE PART IF HIS GENERATION , not an infant that happened to be born a year or two before he died . I don’t “carry” Elvis’ generation another 50 years WITH ME !!! This is retarded! One of the main reasons I stopped preaching . Can’t instruct others in stuff that is unbelievable
Reply
eyes opened says:
September 10, 2015 at 9:41 am
I forgot to mention that when discussing with an elder about Jesus being given “all” authority, I was told I didn’t have the correct understanding of “all”. So this comment goes out to “all y’all”… I have the same understanding as several of you with respect to Prov. 4:18. When considering surrounding scriptures “this” verse is contrasting the righteous and unrighteous. When sticking to the righteous path it becomes clearer and brighter that it’s the best path to follow. I am unaware of any scriptures that suggest we are to manipulate dates to come to1914. And besides, 2 Chronicles 36:20-21 speaks of the 70 years being fulfilled when the royalty of Persia began to rule and wbts own literature tells us that was in 539 BC that Babylon was captured. That leads to 609 BC. Again why do we think those dates have a bearing on Christ’s rulership? After his resurrection he said he had “all” authority. Also scriptures such as Eph. 1:19-21, Col. 2:10, 1 Pet. 3:22 speak of him having authority over angels, powers, governments and so on. Hebrews 10:13 does speak of him waiting. The way my husband explained this is Christ is waiting to see the results of his kingdom as his word is spread and more and more learn about him. (Leaven in flour illustrating growth of the kingdom, all the while Jesus is in control.) Just as a doctor is in control of your treatment, but when he prescribes medication he must wait to see the results of the treatment. This has helped me to reason on things that could have been quite confusing were I to still have wbts blinders on. The scriptures tell us when there is a turning to God, the veil is removed. I started out fighting these various lines of reasoning. Didn’t always like the conclusions I was reaching but I figured believing unscriptural teachings wasn’t going to benefit me and I do like the freedom I’ve gained. Anyway just a few thoughts I wanted to share. See if anyone else has had similar conclusions.
Reply
Robertperez says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:55 pm
When we start handing out assurances as to what is not obvious in Gods word, we become no better than the subjects of this article. We stop seeing the forest, because the trees are in our way. That has been the downfall of Christianity in all its denominations. Why can’t we do something simple like living by the golden rule and acquiring knowledge of his word as was asked of us and not trying to mold it in any way. Just share Jesus story without the agendas.
Reply
David says:
September 10, 2015 at 10:08 am
If they had the single interpretation of the generation changed many items (something that can be tested) imagine what certainty there can be that their points (which cannot be tested) supporting the 1914 doctrine are true.
There are many interpretations that must be absolutely correct for their organization to be right. If one falls the entire house falls apart.
It is clear that they are investing their lives in a distorted vision destroying the lives of people who have decided to stop believing on a bunch of speculations.
In Jesus words I see intelligence something that I cannot see in the JW.org teachings.
Reply
al etheredge says:
September 10, 2015 at 10:33 am
Hey Cedars, I enjoy your videos but I have a bit of a technical issue. The intros are relatively loud while your speech is very low. Could you balance the audio level a bit? I noticed on the above video that you added subtitles which helps. In case you’re wondering, it’s nowhere near as annoying as the feedback screech we used to get every time the audio was switched on at the kingdom hall. lol
Reply
Cedars says:
September 10, 2015 at 11:50 pm
With early videos the intros and outros were unusually loud. All of my more recent videos have quieter intros/outros.
Reply
Mary says:
September 10, 2015 at 10:45 am
God that was painful to watch. Even if I were still going to the meetings, this one would scream out ‘bullshlt’ and I imagine there are a number of JWs (especially older ones) who must realize what a crock this is.
Reply
Mary says:
September 10, 2015 at 10:52 am
Here’s another example that shows just how ludicrous this ‘overlapping generation’ is: Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother was born in 1900 and died in 2002. Prince William was born in 1982 (I think). His life overlapped with his great-grandmothers. Let us assume that he inherits longevity and lives another 70 years to around the year 2085.
Even though there is 185 years difference between them, if you use Crooklyn’s bizarre logic, that means that Prince William was of the same generation as his great-grandmother. The stupidity of this can hardly be measured yet that is exactly what they’re trying to pawn off as ‘present truth’ right now. And sadly, they’ll be JWs that actually fall for it.
Reply
anonymous says:
September 10, 2015 at 11:33 am
Mary, I can’t think of a better illustration to show what bull***t the overlapping doctrine is!!! I will remember it and use it. And Lol, I love your illustration also!!!
Reply
Idontknowhatodo says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:46 am
Mary….excellent thinking…I think you could outwit David Splane…what a load of nonsense he talks…My mother believed it…my father believed it…my spouse believes it…all my children believe it…and when I asked an elder to explain it he tried…and when I still looked puzzled…he said…I dont really understand it either, but its come from the GB so just accept it…..well Mary now I can explain using your example…I wonder what he will say….
Reply
Reader says:
September 10, 2015 at 11:23 am
I had a look at a Greek interlinear and Strongs 3778,
in the Greek ‘this’ follows ‘generation’.
I am far from expert in Greek that’s why I have these books, but subject to other opinions I see it as ‘this’=’same man’ and/or ‘same woman’?
Reply
david adam says:
September 10, 2015 at 11:26 am
Thanks for the insight.You have helped my wife and me so much.keep up the good work.
Reply
Searcher says:
September 10, 2015 at 11:30 am
Oh this broadcast has pegged the needle on my Baloney Meter! Where do I begin!
First, I would call this in mathematical terms, EXTRAPOLATION. The WEBSTER definition of extrapolation, “In mathematics, extrapolation is the process of estimating, beyond the original observation range, the value of a variable on the basis of its relationship with another variable.” In a sense, Splane is extrapolating the generation to ‘overlap’ another generation. Hmmm. “Estimating beyond the original observation range…”? When a prediction is extrapolated, the inaccuracy of the prediction doesn’t get more accurate; it gets less accurate. Basically, the light isn’t getting brighter, it’s getting dimmer.
Next, Splane jumps to a grand conclusion at about the 7 minute mark after asking many questions and setting up many definitions. He says that all ‘these things’ became apparent in 1914. Again, Hmmmm. He and his ‘contemporaries’ (Including the nut job Freddy Franz) aren’t a good study of actual world history. Nation rising against nation, famines, disease plagues, and the like has been happening since history began and unfortunately will continue as long as there is a human race. NEWS FLASH: It didn’t start in 1914!!!! He goes on to talk down to all others who didn’t have the recognition that ‘these things’ were happening in 1914; as if they were dumb children that couldn’t possibly comprehend such a premonition. This is to say that he, as an overlapping contemporary of the 1914 group, can only discern the Big A is to come ‘soon’.
Lastly, Splane redefines generation with a very roundabout explanation. He starts by baiting the audience to look up a scripture reference to define ‘generation’. Then quickly jumps to the Joseph and his bros explanation. Well, he said it! It must be the right! Right? No! You would have to be smoking dope to buy that explanation. I believe that Excelsior gives us a much more plausible definition of what a biblical generation truly means. Splane’s splainin’ shows the extent these weasels will go to cover their mistakes and deceive the masses.
How could splane actually hold a straight face and just spill this like it was fact? It must actually think that if he says it, then it must be fact. Any thinking person would know this is speculation at best and purposeful deception at worst. How can people actually believe this knucklehead and fellow knucklehead’s (i.e. the Governing Body) have all the answers? The whole thing was absolutely disgusting!
Reply
Searcher says:
September 10, 2015 at 11:39 am
Last paragraph should have said, “HE must actually….” not “It must actually…”
Anyway, you get my drift.
Reply
Ted says:
September 10, 2015 at 11:51 am
They’re desperate to ditch 1914, it’s a noose they’ve made
for their own necks that’s getting tighter all the time and must
eventually finish them off.
But they’re stuck with it. No 1914,= no Parousia, no inspection
of all religions by Jesus, and no choosing of the bible students
( Russellites) as his exclusive channel of communication to all
mankind. No 1914 the whole thing dissolves into thin air.
Ray Franz, in his book, “Crisis of Conscience” chap, 10. Makes
us privy to the GBs, decades long struggle with this problem.
GB members, Karl Klein, and Grant Suiter, proposed moving the
year to 1957 when the Russians sent up the Sputnik ( Signs in the
Sun and Moon ) were cited .
The then president, Nathan Knorr said “I know that Jehovah is God
and that Jesus is his son and that he gave his life as a ransom for us
and that there will be a Ressurection . As for 1914, I don’t if we’re
right, I hope we are !” They were baffled then, and now they’re
desperate.
I can’t help thinking that if any ordinary member had expressed
themselves in the doubtful manner of those GB men and even the
the president, the Supremo. They would have been cut off
and shunned.
Reply
Malachi says:
September 10, 2015 at 3:58 pm
Wrt people bringing this to the attention of the GB two names come to mind: Carl Olof Jonsson who wrote an entire book on the errant chronology of the WTS “Gentile Times Revisited” after he presented to the GB a 100+ page thesis on the subject and Alan Fuerbacher who has written several fine articles on the subject. Both inquired of Brooklyn providing reams of documented research showing how tainted and skewed the society’s chronology is and I know that one if not both have been df’d for not recanting their heresy.
Reply
Robertperez says:
September 10, 2015 at 5:14 pm
They are for fact NOT stuck with 1914, it is dead horse they keep beating for no reason. They didn’t predict the date, so they have no obligation whatsoever to hold to it, other than to keep the whole sky is falling agenda. They could very easily transition into an organization that has collectively learned to wait on God and leave it at that, while keeping the majority of the membership and its enthusiasm for the preaching work. I for one love the preaching, it was the preaching bs that I can’t stomach. I keep my preaching work strictly biblical, praying this organization remembers true north some day.
Reply
ruthlee says:
September 10, 2015 at 12:11 pm
hi there, what mess is this!? i quote a little something for you from Scott Marmion canto6 “Ah dastard fool,” to reason lost,……. Oh, what a tangled web we weave, When first we practise to deceive!. i remember when freddy franz died i was told it was an end of an era because he was the last in the direct line of charlie taze so what.Now we have yet another revision. i reckon JC is having a field day with these ninnies, its becoming laughable . when we were hurt they still had a grip , now they are clowning around well we are eyes wide open and havin a larf ha ha, so kingdom smile anyone? mine’s a large gin and tonic, im smiling.
Reply
Ted says:
September 10, 2015 at 12:14 pm
Maybe they were called, Watchtower Bible and tract society
of Pennsylvania, when they claim they were chosen and not
Bible Students, or Russelites. But most of that group made
up the WTS, What’s in a name ? says Shakespeare.
Reply
anonymous says:
September 10, 2015 at 12:43 pm
Splane out and out lied when he claimed that the only ones who saw the sign knew something “invisible” was happening. According the the book “Light” volume one by Rutherford published in 1930 said on page 194:
“The Watch Tower, and its companion publications of the Society, for forty years emphasized the fact that 1914 would witness the establishment of God’s kingdom and the complete glorification of the church. During that period of forty years God’s people on earth were carrying on a witness work, which work was foreshadowed by Elijah and John the Baptist. All of the Lord’s people looked forward to 1914 with joyful expectation. When that time came and passed there was much disappointment, chagrin and mourning, and the Lord’s people were greatly in reproach. They were ridiculed by the clergy and their allies in particular, and pointed to with scorn, because they had said so much about 1914, and what would come to pass, and their ‘prophecies’ had not been fulfilled.
……page 196:
“Has the kingdom begun in any sense of the word? (We so believe). We (think) that the light now going forth is under the direction of the Captain of our Salvation. We (think) that the present distress amongst the nations is merely the beginning of this time of trouble.”
That book Light #1 was printed in 1930 (sixteen years after World War #1 broke out) and Rutherford said that they “thought” that the kingdom had begun. They sure don’t sound like they “knew” that the kingdom rule had begun in 1930 but they did look like fools in 1915 when Armageddon didn’t come in 1914 like they had predicted so in order to save face, they came up with the excuse that the rule was “invisible”. Since it was “invisible”, it is so easy to claim it happened since nobody can actually see something that is invisible.
Fred Franz and his brother (Ray Franz’s father) were both baptized in 1913. I bet it was so they’d not be killed at Armageddon in November of 1914 like the Society had predicted. Fred was 20 (not a kid either).
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 10, 2015 at 2:11 pm
@Anonymous. Also in the ‘Light’ Book Rutherford was still holding to Christs Presence being 1874 & it wasn’t until 1943 that Knorr just after Rutherfords Death that Christs Presence changed to 1914 !!
WELCOME To The CRAZY EVER CHANGING INTERPRETATIONs of the ‘CRAZY SEVEN ‘ Men of the GB. !!
Reply
Dream Catcher says:
September 10, 2015 at 3:22 pm
“But I am growing increasingly confident that to any sincere, intellectually honest Witness capable of rudimentary reasoning skills, no rebuttals are needed. The delusion, absurdity and self-indulgence speaks for itself.”
Cedars I wish this statement to be true but you have been out to long. Most JW view the monthly broadcast as coming from heaven itself, and the majority will view Splanes explanation as if actually recorded in the gospels.
Reply
Cedars says:
September 10, 2015 at 3:51 pm
I didn’t say “majority.” Read it again.
Reply
Ted says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:03 pm
The ultimate special offer, 2 generations for the price of 1.
Only available from JW.org, hurry to avoid disappointment
offer ends soon.
Silly I know. But there’s nothing sensible to say about it.
Reply
Garrett says:
September 10, 2015 at 4:17 pm
But wait Ted! There’s more!
Not only do you get 2 generations for one ….
But! If you order before midnight you get the full
set of John the Baptist steak knives . Holy Cow!
And for the first 1000 callers you get the 3 wise men spice rack stocked with feankinsence and Murr.
Be the envy of your guests.
Call now 1-800-WATCHTOWER
Order now !
Reply
Robertperez says:
September 10, 2015 at 5:19 pm
Ok……. your drunk, go home.
Reply
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← Inducing phobias: How the Watchtower uses irrational fears to solidify membership
12 things we learned from Geoffrey Jackson’s testimony at the Royal Commission →
David Splane explains the overlapping generation teaching (without actually explaining it)
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Posted on September 10, 2015
David Splane grapples with the "overlapping generation" teaching in a new video
David Splane grapples with the “overlapping generation” teaching in a new video
The September JW Broadcasting episode is now available on tv.jw.org, and for any avid follower of goings-on at Watchtower this month’s offering from the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ is a must-watch.
Governing Body member David Splane addresses his audience on one of the many subjects best swept under the rug by Watchtower – the incomprehensible “overlapping generation” teaching.
Simply put, this teaching (which first appeared in the April 15, 2010 Watchtower) is a hastily-contrived get-out-of-jail-free card for the failed 1914 “this generation” teaching.
For decades Watchtower publications insisted that Armageddon was imminent because, they argued, the generation of anointed Witnesses (who believed they were going to heaven) who witnessed and understood the events of 1914 would not die out before Armageddon arrived.
This claim was based on Matthew 24:34, where Jesus told his followers that the generation that witnessed various apocalyptic signs would not die out until all his words, including the “great tribulation” (the prelude to Armageddon), came true.
So certain was Watchtower of this claim that it even had it included in its masthead for the Awake! magazine…
awake-page-4-generation-masthead-oct-1995-tn
That is, until they quietly changed the masthead to read as follows…
awake-page-4-masthead-nov-1995-tn
Increasingly it became obvious that Watchtower’s self-imposed time limit on Armageddon had expired, because too much time had passed since 1914 for there to be any survivors among Jehovah’s Witnesses old enough to have memories of the outbreak of World War I. In fact, at the time of writing in September 2015, only 50 individuals older than 110 years old are known to still be alive.
“New light” was called for, and in 1995 and 2008 the organization made various stabs at squaring the circle. Paul Grundy has done a great job of documenting these fluctuating “understandings” on his JWfacts resource.
The most recent solution, as proposed by Watchtower in 2010 (and regurgitated by Splane in the above clip), is to essentially embellish Jesus’ words by suggesting that “this generation” doesn’t have to be just one generation, but can be two.
The first “group” of “this generation” would witness and understand the events of 1914, and the second group would be those who were born before the last individuals in the first group died (hence an “overlapping” generation).
If you don’t understand this, it is not due to any failure on your part. It is because it doesn’t make sense. The teaching rides roughshod over the English language, redefining what “generation” means, and relying on the audience to willfully bypass their logical thinking skills by asserting the incomprehensible as indisputable truth.
After all, if you can arbitrarily insist that a generation can be composed of two groups, why not have three, four, five – on into infinity? The word “generation” quickly loses all meaning.
The wisest course of action for Watchtower would have been to either distance itself from the “overlapping generation” teaching as a well-meaning slip-up (perhaps by arguing “this generation” was figurative rather than literal), or ignore the matter altogether.
Instead, the Governing Body apparently concluded that a 12-minute video presentation rehashing the teaching, complete with diagram and stick pointer, was just what the doctor ordered.
Their mistake is an inevitable byproduct of their delusion and bullish devotion to their own contrived dogma. It is, to my mind, further proof that the Governing Body are not cynical con-men but really do believe their own nonsense – and expect us to believe it too. Otherwise, they would have steered clear of the subject entirely, and spoken about something more compelling and universally appealing.
In addition to this obvious faux pas, I am also delighted at David Splane’s performance, which wreaked of cheesiness and insincerity…
As a side note – Splane is among three Governing Body members (together with Herd and Losch) who have apparently opted to deliver their JW Broadcasting episodes alongside “helpers” from the various Governing Body committees. The other Governing Body members (Lett, Morris, Sanderson and Jackson) tend to appear by themselves. I can’t help but question Splane’s decision to appear with a co-host, since he is in my view one of the more competent, persuasive speakers on the Governing Body. His uneasy interactions with his co-host only serve to undo the forcefulness of his individual presentation.
A costly mistake
When JW Broadcasting was first announced 11 months ago I said at the time it was great news. The worst thing the Governing Body could possibly do was reveal themselves to their doting followers. It is far easier to respect and admire your leaders when you can’t see or hear them. Having them thrusted at your TV screen or computer monitor in all their bumbling, arrogant, senile, jewelry-flashing glory changes the whole dynamic.
Yes, we have seen some extremely potent pieces of indoctrination designed to pull on the heart strings and appeal to people’s emotions. The standard episode will feature at least one visually appealing interview segment with powerful imagery and stirring music, in which a loyal Witness tears up as he or she relates how Jehovah’s hand has come to their rescue against all odds.
I will continue to do my best to expose these clearly coercive methods in my JW Broadcasting rebuttal videos. But I am growing increasingly confident that to any sincere, intellectually honest Witness capable of rudimentary reasoning skills, no rebuttals are needed. The delusion, absurdity and self-indulgence speaks for itself.
new-cedars-signature3
Further reading…
◾Friendly Atheist article
◾To see a list of video rebuttals to JW Broadcasting episodes, click here.
◾To read the JWfacts page on changes to the generation teaching, click here.
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276 Responses to David Splane explains the overlapping generation teaching (without actually explaining it)
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Ted says:
September 10, 2015 at 5:20 pm
Someone’s been holding out on me Garret, I didn’t know
about all these other goodies , but I’m getting a little bit
suspicious. My dad, bless his soul, always told me.
If anything sounds too good to be true, you can bet your
bottom dollar, it bloody well is. LOL.
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 10, 2015 at 5:27 pm
Greetings, folks. This is my first post. Check my math on this: If you’re born 10 minutes after Joseph dies, you’re NOT part of Joseph’s generation. Hmm… But what if you’re born 10 minutes BEFORE somebody dies who was born BEFORE Joseph and simply outlived him? You would NOT be part of Joseph’s generation, but you WOULD be part of someone’s generation who was born BEFORE him? David, you got some more Splanin’ to do… Weeeee! Critical thinking is fun. I just hate that I waited until I was in my 40’s to try it, lol. Yes, “lol” to keep from crying…
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 10, 2015 at 7:56 pm
Hmm, my first comment may be too clumsy of a thought to hold up to any scrutiny. My actual point is only to highlight the problem with the contrived SPECIFICITY of the GB’s definition of “generation”. It would’ve been better (slightly less terrible) if they would’ve simply said in 1995 that “this generation” refers to the people exhibiting the behaviors mentioned in the Bible regarding the time of the end, and left it open-ended. Although that too would’ve been an unconventional interpretation of “generation”, it would not have been as reprehensible as their bizarre, self-serving, total reimagining of the word. But, either way, they (the GB) are a rotten, deluded, self-righteous lot. Whenever they shoot themselves in the foot, it is a very welcome thing.
Sorry for replying to myself. I’m still dusting off the cobwebs of an underused brain.
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Pickled brain says:
September 10, 2015 at 11:56 pm
@ JB Breezner. Don’t Worry about your first comment. I thought it was very good & not clumsy. WHAT IS CLUMSY is DAVID SPLANES DESCRIPTION of the GENERATION DOCTRINE!! I would even call it an UTTER CONFUSED SHAMBOLIC MESS!
Sorry if I haven’t been CLEAR ENOUGH about my description of the ‘MOST HOLY ANOINTED ??? KING & HIGH PRIEST DAVID SPLANE’
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JB Reezner says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:31 pm
LOL, that’s well said about Splane, Pickled brain! I agree wholeheartedly. And I thank you for the kind words regarding my comment.
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Ruth says:
September 11, 2015 at 12:38 am
Or maybe they could use the fact that the generation that saw Jesus’ miracles did see the end of the Jewish system including the temple. (Jesus’ ministry ended 33 AD and Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD.) There is a comment in Matt 24:48 that the end would appear, from our point of view, to be delayed. Something has to give sometime – global warming will destroy us otherwise.
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JB Reezner says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:57 pm
Yes ma’am, that too would be better (less terrible) than the nonsense they settled on. As I look back, one of the things that freaks me out the most is that my goofy brain so readily accepted CONSTANT emphasis on how “no one can know the day and hour”, while AT THE SAME TIME being incessantly reminded that Armageddon is coming TOMORROW! BOTH messages being sent by the SAME source! Jeeez, I was a poster boy for cognitive dissonance.
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Garrett says:
September 10, 2015 at 10:36 pm
Welcome JB Reezner!!!!
I do hope you at least brought the chips and salsa?
Don’t fail us right after your first post!
Did you bring Twinkies?
Best of wishes and glad to have you with us!
Thanks for your comments.
Garrett
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JB Reezner says:
September 11, 2015 at 2:15 pm
“Gracias” for the kind welcome, Garrett! I have no chips or salsa. I thought I’d get emails when people add to this post after I signed up, but I didn’t. I probably goofed something up. Anyway, that’s my excuse for not getting back to you SOONER. I will assume that, by now, you are warm and well fed and not needing my leftover scrambled eggs from lunch, lol.
Thanks again. I have been enjoying this site and the conversations taking place here for a few months now.
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Excelsior! says:
September 11, 2015 at 3:51 am
JB Reezner,
Welcome to JW Survey, and all of us lovely people who comment here!
I thought your comment was spot on. I hope that your awakening from the undue influence goes smoothly and welcome to your freedom!
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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JB Reezner says:
September 11, 2015 at 5:43 pm
Thank you, Excelsior! I have been enjoying the excellent information (and brilliant presentation of it) offered by this site very much. The fascinating conversations and heartening camaraderie I find in the comments section is icing on the cake.
My awakening has been going fairly smoothly. My last meeting was 5 years ago. Fully awake within a year or so of that. A nice slow fade since then.
Thanks again, and peace be with you too!
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Max says:
September 10, 2015 at 8:46 pm
One of the shocking things about this presentation is that there is NO mention at all of C.T. Russell! They have completely thrown him away.
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ScotWm says:
September 10, 2015 at 10:03 pm
Max says: “… there is NO mention at all of C.T. Russell!”
The Watchtower’s asinine overlapping generation teaching is a desperate attempt to defend the long-expired 1914 cornerstone date. When David Splane gave the names of the first generation of anointed leaders, who recognized the sign of Christ’s presence in 1914, he left out the Watchtower’s founding father, Charles Taze Russell. However, Pastor Russell was 1914’s biggest cheerleader. Therefore, new light is needed to illuminate why the Governing Body threw Pastor Russell under the bus and left him out of the Watchtower faithful slave hall of fame:
The Watch Tower board of directors, known as the Governing Body, has claimed in their publications for the last 90 years that they and the remnant of the 144,000 are the modern version of the faithful and discrete slave, including their founding father, Charles Taze Russell. But until further notice, Pastor Russell has lost his previous status of being part of the slave class: “Were the Bible Students in the years that lead up to 1914 the appointed channel through which Christ would feed his sheep? No. They were still in the growing season, and the arrangement for a channel to provide spiritual food was taking shape. The time had not yet come for the weedlike imitation Christians to be separated from the true Christian wheat.” (Watchtower July 15, 2013 study edition p.19)
On the bright side, Pastor Russell does receive honorable mention for establishing the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society: “During the decades leading up to 1914, C. T. Russell and his close associates did a work like that of John the Baptizer. That vital work involved restoring Bible truths. The Bible Students taught the true meaning of Christ’s ransom sacrifice, exposed the hellfire lie, and proclaimed the coming end of the Gentile Times.” (Watchtower July 15, 2013 study edition p.11, p 6).
Having the Governing Body strip Pastor Russell of his former faithful slave status is the equivalent of having the Catholic Church claim that Saint Peter wasn’t really the first pope.
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dontknowwheretogo says:
September 11, 2015 at 2:22 am
Thing is…Judge Rutherford was EVEN worse than Charlie boy for crazy doctrines and strange things thus they can wipe out CTR as being the FDS but not Rutherford…
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ScotWm says:
September 11, 2015 at 8:44 am
RE: “Judge” Rutherford’s crackpot prophecies, such as this little gem:
“The indisputable facts, therefore, show that the “time of the end” began in 1799; that the Lord’s second presence began in 1874.” — Watchtower 1922 Mar 1 p.73.
If the Lord’s second presence hadn’t been moved up to 1914, the new light, which explains the overlapping generations, might have been introduced soon after Freddy Franz’ 1975 armageddon prophesy failed to materialize.
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eyes opened says:
September 11, 2015 at 7:13 am
In the wbts own Insight books I believe they say a generation is about 33 yrs. So 33, 40 or anything there about is a long way from overlapping. Others have commented about using the Bible only. Yes my husband and I do too. Our ministry is also informal. Just nice conversations with people that we can commend and encourage. No telling them what they should or shouldn’t do. The sermon on the mount contains Jesus teachings on how to live a good life. That’s what we strive for and that’s what we see in others. Our job is one where we deal with the public and most of the people we meet in my experience try to lead honest and kind lives and they truly care about others. We no longer support the us versus them mentality. We do go to meetings occasionally but we have very little in common anymore. BTW the book Crisis of Conscience is an excellent read and so is his follow up book as well. Should be required reading before anyone gets baptized, haha.
Best Regards
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Fatchance says:
September 11, 2015 at 5:24 am
Technically Russel was not a JW he was a Bible student. Rutherford didn’t just change the name to “JW” he actually branched off. Here is a link to the still existing International Bible Students.
http://www.internationalbiblestudents.com/about.html
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ScotWm says:
September 11, 2015 at 9:29 am
RE: “Rutherford didn’t just change the name to “JW” he actually branched off.”
I’m assuming that Joseph Rutherford had some bible knowledge. Therefore, I have always wondered how he decided on the name he chose for his cult. These quotes are taken directly from the latest Watchtower bible rewrite:
There’s this one:
“You are my witnesses,” declares Jehovah, “Yes, my servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and have faith in me And understand that I am the same One. Before me no God was formed, And after me there has been none. (Isaiah 43:10)
And then there’s this one, where Paul is discussing the teachings of Jesus:
So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction. But you will receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you, and you will be witnesses of me in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samari and to the most distant part of the earth.” (Acts 1: 6-8)
Rutherford chose “Jehovah’s Witnesses.” But he could just as easily have chosen “Jesus’ Witnesses.”
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RC says:
September 12, 2015 at 1:17 am
Thanks Fatchance,
That is truly a treasure trove of early Watchtower teachings. Now let my cousin prove that these teachings were of Satan.
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jon says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:15 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eo1O5qMaGU
See the youtube link to discover exactly how they came up with this new doctrine.
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anonymous says:
September 11, 2015 at 2:53 am
jon, that video is hilarious!!! Thanks for sharing.
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JB Reezner says:
September 11, 2015 at 6:10 pm
That video almost KILLED me, I was laughing so hard! Thanks, I needed that.
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ruthlee says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:22 am
Oh no how about a BOGOF (for the uninitiated buy one get one free) i still think the GB should have a lottery and the prize Everlasting life,. 2nd prize Eternal witnessing and a booby prize a tour of Crooklyn no expenses paid. seriously this maybe the deathstroke. im in a dilemma i still go preaching but ive stopped the drivel stuff i use my Bible only, actually im looking for Christians not JWS they can find thier own way there my dear old dad, if he were not pushing up daisies he would be spinning right now. had such belief in this bonkers religion im actually glad to be around now the way things are panning out is so interesting please keep the comments coming. the explanation about a generation being abot 40 years by one of the commenters is so logical the best explanation yet .who really wants to eat spoiled spiritual food only those so starved of healthy nourishing sustainance would raid the garbage can and scoff themselves.bread and wine anyone my place is fine.ruthlee
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Pickled brain says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:52 am
@ruth lee . I like your STYLE! I think the BOOBY PRIZE should be a Place in HEAVEN with the 7 MUSKETEERS!! BOY!! That would be HELL!!
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ruthlee says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:23 pm
tee hee pickled brain
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Excelsior! says:
September 11, 2015 at 4:09 am
Ruthlee,
It’s great to read that you and Mr Perez are using your bibles only.
Although I am an atheist, I acknowledge that there are some positive messages in the bible, and many folks find it beneficial to have a faith.
I would encourage all of us to examine the world scientifically and critically.
Any Truth can withstand even the most critical scrutiny.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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Jake says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:25 am
Surely the Watchtowers generation teaching is a nonsense. Could it be easily argued, in the context of the of the 1st century generation, that the generation who “witnessed all these things” began with uprising of the Jewish nation against the Romans in 66 C.E.?
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Mc fan says:
September 11, 2015 at 2:29 am
Has anyone been to the Website of the International BIble Students Assosiation? They claim that they have never had anything to do with JWs. They also claim that Bible Students did not evolve into JWs. They are 2 separate movements. If Jesus chose the BIble Students in 1919(as JWs did not exist yet) than why are not all JWs BIble students. Are JWs the original apostates of the IBSA?
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anonymous says:
September 11, 2015 at 2:59 am
Mc fan, yes they are the original apostates of the IBSA but you have to have awakened to the real truth about the truth to realize that.
Last night I woke up in the night with yet another nightmare about trying to tell a former “friend” about the real truth about the truth.
When do the nightmares end? I hate that religion more than anybody can possibly know that is unless you are going through the same thing so that you know what I am talking about.
I wished I could move away from here to start all over again but I can’t leave because I’d be leaving behind one of my children who are still in the cult.
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Excelsior! says:
September 11, 2015 at 3:48 am
anonymous,
I’m sorry to read about your nightmare, dear Lady.
Maybe it’s time for a break from all this? There are many of us here, and we can take up any slack.
You don’t owe anyone anything, and if this is making you upset, then there’s no shame in taking a break or walking away.
I for one do not judge anyone for what they do or don’t do in the battle against the WTBTS.
Take care of yourself, and I hope that you find some comfort from your pain.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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anonymous says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:47 pm
@Excelsior. Thank you for the kind thoughts. I think what I am going through is Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. I have heard other people talk about it and I think that that is what I am experiencing and all of us who are experiencing waking up from the indoctrination are probably suffering from the same thing.
We wouldn’t have to suffer like this if we weren’t in a cult that expels any of us who would speak out so that we could warn our loved ones and friends but we can’t. That is what makes it so hard on us and that is what the Society has planned for us to punish us for speaking out. It is evil and sadistic but that is what they want and I will not let it conquer me.
I come to read comments here all through the day and it’s those comments are what get me through the day.
I wished I could just walk away from the JW religion and live my life and be happy without all those former “friends” but I do think the only way people can walk away from it is to move far, far away where nobody can hound you about it into “coming” back but probably for most of us, that isn’t possible.
So, this web site is really a life saver for me and I am sure for a lot of other people such as myself also.
Thanks Cedars for thinking of doing this web site and keeping it up!!! I am so grateful to you and your family for everything you have done here.
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Pickled brain says:
September 11, 2015 at 9:19 pm
@Anonymous . EXCELLENT COMMENTS. Yes MANIPULATION by 7 EVIL MEN!!
JESUS CHRIST NEVER NEVER SHUNNED ANYONE!! Jesus spoke to the Pharisees continuously EVEN though they had Twisted the Scriptures so they ignored Love,Justice&Mercy !!
Jesus didn’t ignore Judas .He carried on speaking to him right through the ‘Last Supper’ & allowed Judas to associate with the rest of the Apostles!! NO SHUNNING of JUDAS by JESUS!!
Take care Anonymous! Keep on speaking out! MANY JWs are READING THIS SITE! & YES CEDARS (Lloyd) is DOING A BRILLIANT SERVICE TO HUMANITY in Highlighting WATCHTOWER ABUSE!!
David says:
September 11, 2015 at 3:19 am
If this generation in the first century fulfilment was 37 years why in the second fulfilment (it their speculation is right) it can be 160 years? This is total madness, is putting your entire trust in the hands of other men. This can happen because they do not study their own history which is full of speculation and wishful thinking.
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Pickled brain says:
September 11, 2015 at 9:28 pm
@David . YOUR ANALYSIS HAS NAILED the UTTER FOOLISHNESS of Following 7 MEN in BROOKLYN & Not just Following OUR OWN REASONING & Particularly our OWN BIBLE TRAINED CONSCIENCES instead of Following the FLIP FLOP CONSCIENCES of 7 EVIL MEN who tried to HIDE CHILD ABUSE BY ELDERS by Not Reporting one Case out of 1006 JW Child Abusers in Australia as Highlighted by the Royal Commission instead the Watchtower has been Paying TENS of MILLIONS in Compensation to Victims to Silence them! ABSOLUTELY SICKENING!! JESUS WOULD be ASHAMED of these 7 EVIL MEN !
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ruthlee says:
September 11, 2015 at 5:00 am
thanks for all the kind words to me. to anon i really understand you wanting to move away i too would like to do this but i have kids in school still trying gently not to promote being unbtzd pubs im stalling for time its so difficult but this site is the voice of reason and non judgement. we are all wiiling to hear what others have to say so plod on like me doing the discreet thing at the moment .i reckon if God is running the show (of life) He will make it very plain when it is time to jump ship peace and love to you, ruthlee
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John freeman says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:17 pm
I also think i will have to jump ship.
Have been in since 60s i have now woken up . Most of my family are jw including wife . So i have similar problem. I have faded but still take wife to meetings . Its hard to sit throgh it now i notice all the mind control methods now i dont care much if members of cong shun me but worry how to deal with wife and close family . I get so depressed having to sit at meetings and listen to the nonsense . I have told her the time is coming when ill drop her off and pick up latter . It ses although i am mentaly free i feel even more trapped now i know what a complete waste of time it is.
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Ocma says:
September 11, 2015 at 7:58 pm
John, I know how you feel.
After leaving, and having not attended a meeting in over a year, I agreed to attend a special meeting with my mother, I think it was 2008, where the congregation listened to a brother from the GB give a talk via the phone loop (I can’t remember which one).
The entire thing was painfully boring. I don’t remember him saying anything special, nothing new. Hardly worth all the excitement the brothers and sisters were showing before the meeting started.
I am still amazed that after that last attendance, that I was never requested to meet with the elders.
I stood during the 3 songs, but did not sing and wouldn’t even look at the song book my mum was trying to share with me.
My mum passed me a bible, I placed it on the ground, I didn’t care to follow along. I know people were watching me. And I know it was obvious to everyone that I did not want to be there.
When I walked out that day, I knew, I would never go back. Not for a memorial to keep people happy, not for a funeral, not for money! Once you wake up, it’s a brain killing, soul destroying place to be. I hope you can fade quietly with no hassle from your family.
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Pickled brain says:
September 11, 2015 at 9:36 pm
@John Freeman . I am in a Similar Situation as you . & when you realise the MANIPULATION TECHNIQUES Used Especially on TV.JW.Org with the EMOTIONAL MUSIC in the BACKGROUND & at Least one JW voice Quivering near to tears ! You can see These 7 MEN are Very CRAFTY & will APPEAL to the EMOTIONALLY VULNERABLE!! VERY VERY SAD !
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Grace says:
September 11, 2015 at 11:03 pm
I really feel for you guys, those feelings you talk about were dominating my life before the ARC.
I wish that you could have your own Royal Commission or something similar. I’m so thankful for it happening here as it has freed me to go out & live my life again. I’ve been going to the local shopping centre a fair bit lately & have not run into one Witness there. I stopped going there because it didn’t matter what time or day, there would always be someone there. Not lately, they seem to have disappeared of the face of the earth.
My husband & I haven’t even seen them out witnessing or manning the cart (which is only allowed to be put at the KH by council). They seem to be very quiet here at the moment & it’s a small community, they normally stand out here.
I’m actually wondering how many are questioning their faith here. It may have gone quiet but I think the seeds have been planted & it’s just a matter of time for it grow.
It has given me so much more confidence with the thought of running into someone & not letting them affect me anymore. I’ve been ready to say something if they’re game enough to talk to me.
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Excelsior! says:
September 12, 2015 at 5:14 am
Grace,
Fantastic news! I am so happy that you were able to have your right to a normal day, going where you wanted to go and do what you wanted to do.
The ARC has inoculated a lot of people to the WTBTS. Let’s hope your physical freedom continues!
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Daniel Roberts says:
September 11, 2015 at 5:47 am
How does the GB explain this then if the word ‘generation’ means 2 groups of people overlapping in lifespan?
From Matthew 1.17
All the generations, then, from Abraham until David were 14 generations; from David until the deportation to Babylon, 14 generations; from the deportation to Babylon until the Christ, 14 generations.
Can’t be any clearer.. this scripture rams home how generation is intended to be understood.
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Pickled brain says:
September 11, 2015 at 9:42 pm
@ Daniel . YOU ARE SO RIGHT!! MATTHEW EXPLAINS ‘ GENERATION ‘ Perfectly! Make it COMPLICATED that the Ordinary JW Can’t Understand & one sister says she just leaves everything to the GB to work out !! SAD, SAD & SAD!
What about 1 John ch.4 v1,2 where it says ‘TEST EVERY INSPIRED EXPRESSION ‘ Even more so Uninspired ones ??
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Daniel Roberts says:
September 12, 2015 at 3:08 pm
Totally. So much for the Boreans.. seeing if these things are true…. Honestly I think that the JW way of life appeals to the human ego. The whole “we are right – we are chosen – we are special -You are not”
Admitting you are wrong and have been for many years is too much for some people and they would rather continue to delude themselves.. even though they know that it is a delusion.
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It'sJustMe says:
September 11, 2015 at 6:00 am
Their smiles on their tv.jw, I mean the smile of all the seven members of the governing body is anything but natural. Where does their strange and constraint smile come from ? Has their heavenly crown become too heavy for each of them ? Or does it come from their inherent hypocrisy ? Or maybe is it due to the fact that before they are TV speaking they have swallowed an huge anti-depressant, inciting them not to call into question the new lights they are disclosing to their co-domestics greedy for new spiritual food ?
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Richard says:
September 11, 2015 at 7:28 am
Their asses must be sore from pulling out that massive turd. How any half-way intelligent human being can fall for this obvious scam is beyond me. You must really be brainwashed to not see the obvious lies at this point.
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James Broughton says:
September 11, 2015 at 8:33 am
Well done Lloyd. Cedars at his best when exposing the organisation for what it is. A sham.
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Exhausted says:
September 11, 2015 at 8:46 am
The Society should put out a booklet entitled ” The Generations Theory for Dummies”. Because that is
Exactly what it looked like to me. They could have tag
Lines like…. The book that keeps on ticking… Or How
Loooonnnngggg can we pull it off???? How about Is
Your generation as flexible as ours?
I also like “LUCY…You got some splaining to do!!!”
Anyhow it couldn’t be any worse.
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Pickled brain says:
September 11, 2015 at 9:55 am
@Exhausted. HOW ABOUT ‘ The Who’ ‘ MY GENERATION ‘ song & one of the verses in the Song is ….,’I HOPE I DIE Before I GET OLD’!!!!
How about’ I hope I die Before the GB come up with NEW LIGHT on the ‘ Generation ”
The BIGGEST DUMMIES are the Rank & File who fall for their CHOP& CHANGE DRIVEL !!
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Ted says:
September 11, 2015 at 9:01 am
Robertperez,
Hi again Robert , In a previous post I said the GB were stuck
with 1914. You replied, “They didn’t predict the date, so they
have no obligation whatsoever to hold to it. I agree, 1914 did
not originate with the present GB.
They did not father the child, but they definitely “Adopted it.
( “There is more evidence for 1914 than for Gravity or electricity”
A recent comment by Stephen Lett.). Wouldn’t you say then
that they do have an obligation to hold to it? Not that, that will
prevent them from abandoning it, if they think it’s advantageous.
As you suggest, they could morph into a “Keep preaching and
leave the rest to JHVH, mindset. Some recent talks and articles
indicate that’s the direction they’re taking.
I can only see the growth rate plummeting, in my long experience
in the religion, I’ve noticed very few have the same enthusiasm for
the preaching work as you do.
What’s kept the bros, knocking on doors and being told to F, Off
or I’ll set the dogs on you, etc, Has been the teaching, of the
need to work your passage through the imminent slaughter of
Armageddon and into a new world. All based on the 1914
doctrine. As I’ve said already, it’s a noose around their necks
that’s getting tighter.
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ScotWm says:
September 11, 2015 at 9:50 am
Stephen Lett likened the invisible 1914 kingdom to other invisible things, such as gravity, electricity and wind. What more proof do we need?
The Watchtower’s Governing Body has definitely adopted the 1914 teaching and will go to whatever lengths deemed necessary in order to defend it.
The Watchtower (Simplified Edition) January 2014 featured an article entitled “100 Years of Kingdom Rule—How Does It Affect You?”, which uses plenty of out of context scriptures to fully explain the 1914 doctrine to those with simple minds. Read all about it here:
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/ws20140115/100-years-kingdom-rule/
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al etheredge says:
September 11, 2015 at 11:28 am
Yes, they could opt out of the repetitive rounds of predictions (and failures) with this new doctrine, but I don’t think they will. They are too attracted to the increased membership and donations such predictions bring about.
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Steve McRoberts says:
September 11, 2015 at 10:41 am
Great comments, and excellent points! I just read them all, but two things I didn’t see mentioned, so I’ll add my two cents:
1. Contrary to what Splane claims, Franz et al., did not “understand” the significance of 1914 at the time; they expected it to be the END of the last days — not their start.
2. Splane asks: “What did Joseph and his brothers have in common?” Um… a father? They were of the same “generation” because they had been “generated” out of Jacob’s “loins.” It’s quite a stretch to apply this to “anyone alive at the same time.” That is not what “generation” has meant to anyone — ever!
I’d better never hear a Witness complaining about “the generation gap”; there can be no generation gap when everyone alive is of the same generation. (I wonder if there have been any WT/Awake articles on the generation gap; these will be old light now!)
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Exhausted says:
September 11, 2015 at 10:50 am
In Ray,s book, I forget which one of the governing body
Members it was, but he was frustrated with the whole thing and made the comment that we got that from the
Adventists. I remember that because it stunned me at
The time to read such a revelation as that, having grown
Up in the truth. I had never heard of any connection to
Adventists, Millerites, or whatever other leanings CTR
Had up his sleeve. Pyramidology was never mentioned
During my lifetime, nor was Beth Sarim, or 1874 or 1799
And these dates were predicted before CTR was even born. I also remember attending a Corporate meeting
In Pittsburgh in 1968 and they played a movie of CTR
Pacing the stage giving one of his sermons on film of
Course and all praise was being given to him. Now, you
Don’t hear anything at all about him in those reverent terms. ????? Even though I was only about 15 at the
Time, I remember it like it was yesterday. Things really
Have changed drastically. So glad to be out.
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Exhausted says:
September 11, 2015 at 10:52 am
Oh the frustration was in regards to 1914 of course.
Forgot to preface that.
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rob says:
September 11, 2015 at 11:35 am
This religion has created such a conundrum of “new light” and rules and false prophecies. If asked, the average witness will never be able to explain the following:
Overlapping generations?
Who exactly is the King of the North?
What are blood fractions?
policy on child abuse?
Shunning?
Who’s on first?
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Pickled brain says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:09 pm
@Rob. GOOD POINTS!!
How about adding
1) Gog & Magog
2)F&D Slave
3)Sheep&Goats
4)Organ Transplants
5) Vaccinations
6)Superior Authorities
ANY MORE, ANYONE????
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Ted says:
September 11, 2015 at 12:10 pm
GB, Do the honourable thing and issue a full and unreserved
apology to all the people who have put their lives on hold.
People who have forgone marriage and the joy of children,
Those who have missed out on a good education and career.
Ones who have spent their lives working for you without
proper wages and are left with little support in old age.
And all because of a dogmatic adherence to a long ago failed
prediction based on the year 1914. A date that you insist was
given to you by God.
Spare us the usual rhetoric, that in their desire to see gods plan
fulfilled bros, have run ahead of the org, and raised false
expectations in their mind. You and you alone are the ones who
are responsible for these bogus assumptions. SHAME ON YOU.
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ruthlee says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:32 pm
here here ted and so say all of us ruthlee
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Cedar Sullivan says:
September 11, 2015 at 12:33 pm
When will Mr. Cedars grow up. Stick to your web donations. These guys keep winning. Come to Naija for more church business…
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Pickled brain says:
September 11, 2015 at 2:31 pm
@Cedar Sullivan . Sorry I am a bit slow. Are you insulting the CEDARS WEBSITE ‘ ???
& Excuse me as I have been a JW for 35 years so my brain is not used to thinking properly,but WHAT is NAIJA?? Is it some JAPANESE NINJA TURTLE Version of STEPHEN LETT???
Please forgive my IGNORANCE as I have been Brainwashed, sorry I meant spiritually Led by the F& D Slave???
Reply
Innocent Son says:
September 11, 2015 at 12:41 pm
I’ve a feeling that David Spline and the rest of the G B are going to have to keep explaining the Generation teaching more and more. You see it just doesn’t make sense, rather it causes more confusion! The sad part is I think the G B are so deluded they actually believe all this nonsense… These 7 clowns dressed in comic book suits are ‘ Barking Mad ‘ and DO NOT REPRESENT ANY GOD I KNOW…
Reply
Pete says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:08 pm
So the GB have rewritten the Bible to suit their Dogma and now they are trying desperately to re-write the English dictionary to suit their Dogma as well. These guy’s are just plain nuts! Who ties their shoelaces? With two thirds of JW kids quitting the cult as soon as they’re able, (because kids usually have good BS detectors) the arrival of the internet providing instant information sharing and giving cults no place to hide, the WT being caught with their pants down and totally shamed by the Aust. Royal Commission and sites like this, it’s only a matter of time before the house of cards comes tumbling down. Anybody who can’t now see it for what it is, is either totally blind or has a deep seated desire to be led and told what to do. I recently presented my JW mother with a logical question which she couldn’t answer so she rang my JW sister who in turn rang an elder. The cult have these people thinking and behaving like primary school children who can’t even think for themselves and go running to the headmaster for an answers.
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 12, 2015 at 3:08 pm
Well said, Pete! And your comment about kids having good BS detectors reminded me of my non-JW niece. Years ago, when she was a child, I would occasionally take her to the meetings with me. Recently, I divulged to her that I no longer subscribe to JW doctrine (I think the term I used was actually “horse s#!*”). I apologized for having exposed her to it, but she said, “It’s not a big deal. I never believed any of it anyway.” With that, I felt small and stupid myself, but very proud of HER!
I wish for your family members the same enlightenment that so many are experiencing these days. The GB seems determined to keep making their hooey harder and harder to swallow.
Reply
1914 ha ha ha says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:32 pm
Give enough rope and they will hang themselves.Hence the money grabs etc, they know they are running out of time & members. I only hope im alive to see it!
Reply
1914 ha ha ha says:
September 11, 2015 at 1:56 pm
As the saying goes,”trick me once, shame on me! Trick me twice,shame on you” wbts are a bunch of (feel free to fill in the blanks):)
Reply
Awake! says:
September 11, 2015 at 5:04 pm
I can think of many, many terms I could use for the WTBTS, to ‘fill in your blanks’, however I fear my post would be deleted. Someone recently suggested that the 9/11 terrorists should have targeted the WT Headquarters rather than the WTC, because, in their words, “terrorists need to kill terrorists.” Their final word was “Sorry.” I replied, “Don’t be sorry”, and both those posts were deleted! I suppose making those kinds of comments is too politically incorrect and inflammatory, unlike molesting innocent children , brainwashing the masses, cutting people off from their families, ruining people’s lives with bald-faced lies and cynical manipulation techniques, and keeping millions captive in a ritualistic cult based on worshipping a mental idol (“Jehovah”). I suppose we wouldn’t want to ruffle anyone’s feathers, especially the “high and mighty” GB up there in their Ivory Tower. Maybe I’m just a bad person for agreeing with that (deleted) post.
By the way, your “handle” reminded me of something I was thinking of just today. The WTBTS has always made such a big deal about “nailing” 1914 as a pivotal year i.e. the outbreak of “World War I”. But WWI is only WWI because we call it that. It was really just another European war, fought, as usual, between the French, British, and Germans. The U.S. didn’t get involved until 1917. Was there fighting in North America? South America? Australia? Africa? India? Russia? China? Japan? Thailand??? So it really wasn’t a “world war”, was it? Yes, there were tremendous casualties, but only due to technology (the machine gun, artillery, air power), and the belligerents’ stubbornness in continuing to send more and more troops into the slaughter. And, of course, it was a war which involved primarily white Europeans and North Americans (“Westerners”), so naturally it was EVENTUALLY dubbed “WORLD War I” (originally the Great War). Doubt it would have been WWI if it occurred in Latin America or Australia or Africa! Russell and his cronies could have thrown out one of many other dates and still “nailed” a “major” war – how about the Boer War, Spanish Civil War, WWII, the Korean War,the French IndoChina War, the Vietnam War, any one of the countless Middle Eastern wars, Bosnia, Rwanda, even other earthshaking events like the stock market crash of 1929, Mount St. Helen’s, Chernobyl, 9/11, etc. Sh*t happens. All the time. Anyone can make predictions, and statistically speaking, be correct from time to time. Once again, WTBTS and the GB, proven to be a bunch of nothings and nobodies, with no mystical powers and no connection to any Divinity, “Jehovah” or not!!!
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 11, 2015 at 9:56 pm
@Awake. EXCELLENT ANALYSIS!!
Reply
Ocma says:
September 11, 2015 at 7:44 pm
“If you don’t understand this, it is not due to any failure on your part. It is because it doesn’t make sense. ” – This gave me a good chuckle :)
It really doesn’t make any sense. I never understood the 607 explanation either ‘there’s no year 0 so minus one year and you get the answer’. Um, what?
They are crazy for spouting all this ‘new light’, as though it really is factual.
And, at the end of the day, no one is supposed to know when ‘God’ is coming, so why do they keep trying to pin point it??
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 11, 2015 at 10:01 pm
@Ocma . Exactly as Jesus said he didn’t KNOW the DAY or HOUR !!! Matthew 24v34-36 BUT SILLY ME David SPLANE Knows MORE Than JESUS!!
Reply
Ocma says:
September 13, 2015 at 5:46 pm
Ha! They just love to think they’re so clever, and they want everyone to know it, and gush over them. Nothing discreet about them. The GB is truly out of touch with reality.
Reply
Kat says:
September 11, 2015 at 8:34 pm
great post Ocma
Reply
minion says:
September 11, 2015 at 9:17 pm
I also ask the same question, why Chuckie T. Russell was omitted and forgotten, since he was the founder of the IBSA, allegedly known today as JWs.
Someone posted a link to IBSA, so I researched and found this, this is an excerpt and for informational purposes:
Brother Russell Founded the Bible Students, not Jehovah’s Witnesses
This early Bible Student history book is written by Bro. Ken Rawson, a Bible Student elder who knew more Bible Students from Pastor Russell’s and JF Rutherford’s time than any other Bible Student elder alive today.
After the death of Pastor Russell in 1916, the purpose of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society changed drastically. Joseph Rutherford, whom Pastor Russell had recently dismissed from his staff, seized legal control of the Watch Tower, dismissed the majority of the Board of Directors, and established dictatorial authority. The Watch Tower became the central head and authority over all congregations willing to yield their sovereignty. Basic doctrines of the “new society” seriously digressed from the teachings of Pastor Russell as the writings of Pastor Russell were discarded. The methods of conducting the evangelistic work were altered. The more sensational digressions, such as refusing blood transfusion and saluting the flag, caught the public’s eye. But many individuals and whole congregations refused to surrender their Christian liberty or accept the new teachings. As early as 1917, the exodus from the newly declared sovereign headquarters
began. By 1918 one-fourth of the Bible Students left Judge Rutherford and remained true to the teachings of the late Pastor Russell.
Info found under history link, at IBSA.
I did not know.
Peace out,
Reply
mcfan says:
September 11, 2015 at 9:31 pm
minion,
Exactly!
The truth is that JWs have only existed since 1931!
They only mention Russell in their history for HISTORICAL DEPTH! Imagine in 1961 going door to door trying explain to people that your religion has only existed for 30 years.
Reply
mcfan says:
September 11, 2015 at 9:35 pm
More people might want to check out the website of the International Bible Students Association and go to: Bible Students Are not Jehovah,s Witnesses.
VERY MUST SEE STUFF!
Reply
minion says:
September 12, 2015 at 8:52 pm
@ mcfan,
Consider this:
1). Chuckie T. Russell a Christian, not a JW.
2). Judge Rutherford once a Christian, now an apostate made his own religion known as JWs.(1931)
3). The man known as Jesus Christ was a Christian, not a JWs.
4). IBSA the true enchilada, founded by Chuckie T. Russell still exist.
5). Where do we go, someone asked? . . you decide.
Lloyd keep the ‘true New Light shine ever brighter’.
Peace out,
Reply
Rose Graziano says:
September 12, 2015 at 4:47 am
To top it all off David Splane during his explanation of the Generations had the nerve to say “we are not saying this for sure but “Lets’s just assume for arguments sake”
Reply
Freedom is good says:
September 12, 2015 at 6:53 am
I feel so good to realize how false this religion is.Just thinking of how to exit since i have family members in.
Reply
alain says:
September 12, 2015 at 7:38 am
Hi Lloyd!
Another good article. I’ve just seen D. Splane’s video on JW Broadcasting. It’s quite surprising to hear that all the actual GB members are contemporary of the first generation, included Mark SANDERSON. M. SANDERSON is 50 this year: he was born in 1965… Does that mean he was anointed in his early twenties? At least , before 1992?
Reply
FadingFast says:
September 12, 2015 at 1:23 pm
I was thinking the same. I wonder if his life story is written down anywhere? I think he grew up in the San Diego area and served in Newfoundland, Canada before coming to Brooklyn. Not married as far as I can tell.
Reply
1914 ha ha ha says:
September 12, 2015 at 8:54 am
Do not put your trust in the sons of men. Well theres no use even trying to use the bible to reason with most jws, deut 18 20 to 22 erm false prophets.Just watch there eyes glaze over.So sad.
Reply
ScotWm says:
September 12, 2015 at 9:48 am
David Splane, his six Governing Body associates and other helpers have been feeding us some very complicated spiritual food lately. Honest hearted ones can appreciate what a loving provision we were given when David Splane provided us with a detailed explanation of the overlapping generations. This was indeed spiritual food delivered at the proper time.
I have always been curious as to how the spirit anointed Governing Body members receive the heavenly guidance they so lovingly share with us. I finally found the answer. This heavenly guidance is communicated directly to the anointed remnant through angels:
“These angels are invisible to human eyes and are there to carry out the orders of the Lord. No doubt they first hear the instruction which the Lord issues to his remnant and then these invisible messengers pass such instruction on to the remnant. The facts show that the angels of the Lord with him at his temple have been thus rendering sacred service unto the remnant since 1919.” (Vindication, 1932, vol.3, p.250)
“The remnant do not hear audible sounds, because such is not necessary. Jehovah has provided his own good way to convey thoughts to the minds of his anointed ones. To all on the outside of the organization of Jehovah his is a secret organization.” (Preparation, 1933, p.64)
So, there you go. We can rest assured that “the facts show” angelic direction is the source of all Watchtower prophesies and doctrine. The first spirit anointed generation would recognize Christ’s invisible presence in 1914 and this first generation would be followed by another spirit anointed generation which would overlap the first generation.
Reply
anonymous says:
September 12, 2015 at 5:43 pm
@ScotWm, according to the Revelation It’s Grand Climax At Hand! on page 125, the Watchtower doesn’t really know for sure where they get their “spiritual” guidance from. This is the way it read, starting on page 124 under the Subheading “The Great Crowd Makes It’s Appearance”:
“From the time of the apostle John and on into the Lord’s day, anointed Christians were puzzled as to the identity of the great crowd. It is fitting, then, that one of the 24 elders, representing anointed ones already in heaven, should stir John’s thinking by raising a pertinent question. “And in response one of the elders said to me: ‘These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?’ So right away I said to him: ‘My lord, you are the one that knows.'” (Revelation 7:13,14a) Yes, the elder could locate the answer and give it to John. This suggests that resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today.”
If you pay attention to that paragraph, it is saying that there were already anointed ones in heaven and they “might” have stirred John’s thinking when he wrote what he did at that scripture at Revelation and that when the anointed today are resurrected to heaven, that they “may” be involved in the communicating of divine truths today.
So, who knows where those “stirrings of divine truth” are coming from since the Society says “may” be involved. They don’t say it’s coming from angels in that paragraph.
Reply
ScotWm says:
September 12, 2015 at 9:59 pm
RE: “@ScotWm, according to the Revelation It’s Grand Climax At Hand! on page 125, the Watchtower doesn’t really know for sure where they get their “spiritual” guidance from.”
It is interesting that Watchtower leaders would admit that they don’t know the source of their spiritually-inspired false prophesies. It must be a real challenge to determine where the divine guidance ends and the hallucinations begin.
Joseph Rutherford claimed that once the Lord arrived at his temple in 1918 and gathered together unto himself the chosen ones, guidance from the holy spirit would no longer be necessary because Christ would be present among his chosen ones. Rutherford then claimed that communication with Jesus was relayed to him and his anointed brethren by angels or ministering spirits. After Rutherford’s death, Watchtower leaders once again claimed that they are guided by the holy spirit.
Rather than elaborate on the pathetic ramblings of a totally-discredited former Watchtower leader, the website below has a very good analysis of the active force that has been guiding the Watchtower:
http://freeminds.org/psych/activfor.htm
Reply
anonymous says:
September 13, 2015 at 3:10 am
“The remnant do not hear audible sounds, because such is not necessary. Jehovah has provided his own good way to convey thought to the minds of his anointed ones. To all on the outside of the organization of Jehovah his is a secret organization. ibid., p. 64″
ScotWm, I cut and pasted that quote from the article you posted and find it quite telling.
From what I gather from that quote is the they don’t need to hear voices but whatever comes to their mind is coming from God??? That seems really convenient. It sounds an awful lot like how Joseph Smith got his information from Jesus. Nobody was a witness to the event and he lost his evidence but as long as he said it happened, that is good enough for eighteen million Mormons. The story is so implausible that there’s a popular play about it here in the U.S. called the “Book of Mormon” and it’s quite funny from what I have heard about it.
Reply
Kevin says:
September 12, 2015 at 11:21 am
The one thing that bugs me about 1914 was IIRC it was predicted before then that Jesus would kick out Satan and begin his rule. World War I started presumably because Satan was pissed and “closer” to the earth. Coincidence?
Reply
Excelsior! says:
September 13, 2015 at 4:48 am
Kevin,
The WTBTS used to state that Satan and his buddies were cast out in October. WW1 started in August.
WW1 could have started the year before, but a compromise that satisfied no one was reached.
No one has definitive proof that any of these “spirit creatures” exist.
So, yes, it is a coincidence.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
Ted says:
September 12, 2015 at 11:47 am
JWs were an apostate schism from the Bible Students, or
Russellites. Enforced by the bully boy tactics of the big judge.
( That’s Rutherford, not the other big judge )
But one thing common to both groups was the fixation on the
year 1914, which resulted in embarrassment for each of them.
Ray Franz stated, “For 30 years they were looking forward to
1914, and now for 80 years they have been looking back at it.
( add 21 years since Ray’s statement.)
The looking forward was to the “End” of all trouble in that year
not the “Beginning”, ( Zion’s WT July 15, 1894 p226 ),
History proves that was a complete failure, despite claiming
“These are God’s dates not ours”.
The looking back to 1914 has been a reversal of Russell’s
teaching. Now 1914 is claimed to be the “Beginning” of
of trouble, ( Not the end of it as predicted by Russell ). The
trouble is foretold to end within the generation of people
alive in that key year.
That generation has long gone, even many of the following
generation ( To which I belong,) have already handed their
chips in. I’m still hanging on at 84.
You can look at that date, forwards or backwards. or from
any angle you like. It has no meaning or relevance to Bible
prophecy. I’m really sorry if you’ve invested a great deal in
It, You’ve lost your stake, the horse was a nag.
Reply
ruthlee says:
September 13, 2015 at 12:16 pm
bless you Ted 84 and still fighting fit good on you bro gives us all hope love and peace ruthlee
Reply
FadingFast says:
September 12, 2015 at 1:15 pm
Strange how an organization can spend decades condemning “Christendom” for “incomprehensible” and confusing doctrines such as the Trinity, and not see the irony of teaching their own convoluted dogma.
Reply
Garrett says:
September 12, 2015 at 1:39 pm
Lloyd/ Cedars
I would love to see you do another type of survey.
Namely, what do you think will be the future of the WT.
Crumble? In how many years? Limp on? For how many years? Etc. in other words, what do we all predict will be her fate/ future?
It would be fun.
Reply
Innocent Son says:
September 12, 2015 at 1:50 pm
It’s about time the 7 men in charge of the Borg came clean and admitted they got key teachings wrong! However I won’t be holding my breath as that would make them fallible and PROVE THEY DON’T HAVE HOLY SPIRIT!
Reply
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← Inducing phobias: How the Watchtower uses irrational fears to solidify membership
12 things we learned from Geoffrey Jackson’s testimony at the Royal Commission →
David Splane explains the overlapping generation teaching (without actually explaining it)
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Posted on September 10, 2015
David Splane grapples with the "overlapping generation" teaching in a new video
David Splane grapples with the “overlapping generation” teaching in a new video
The September JW Broadcasting episode is now available on tv.jw.org, and for any avid follower of goings-on at Watchtower this month’s offering from the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ is a must-watch.
Governing Body member David Splane addresses his audience on one of the many subjects best swept under the rug by Watchtower – the incomprehensible “overlapping generation” teaching.
Simply put, this teaching (which first appeared in the April 15, 2010 Watchtower) is a hastily-contrived get-out-of-jail-free card for the failed 1914 “this generation” teaching.
For decades Watchtower publications insisted that Armageddon was imminent because, they argued, the generation of anointed Witnesses (who believed they were going to heaven) who witnessed and understood the events of 1914 would not die out before Armageddon arrived.
This claim was based on Matthew 24:34, where Jesus told his followers that the generation that witnessed various apocalyptic signs would not die out until all his words, including the “great tribulation” (the prelude to Armageddon), came true.
So certain was Watchtower of this claim that it even had it included in its masthead for the Awake! magazine…
awake-page-4-generation-masthead-oct-1995-tn
That is, until they quietly changed the masthead to read as follows…
awake-page-4-masthead-nov-1995-tn
Increasingly it became obvious that Watchtower’s self-imposed time limit on Armageddon had expired, because too much time had passed since 1914 for there to be any survivors among Jehovah’s Witnesses old enough to have memories of the outbreak of World War I. In fact, at the time of writing in September 2015, only 50 individuals older than 110 years old are known to still be alive.
“New light” was called for, and in 1995 and 2008 the organization made various stabs at squaring the circle. Paul Grundy has done a great job of documenting these fluctuating “understandings” on his JWfacts resource.
The most recent solution, as proposed by Watchtower in 2010 (and regurgitated by Splane in the above clip), is to essentially embellish Jesus’ words by suggesting that “this generation” doesn’t have to be just one generation, but can be two.
The first “group” of “this generation” would witness and understand the events of 1914, and the second group would be those who were born before the last individuals in the first group died (hence an “overlapping” generation).
If you don’t understand this, it is not due to any failure on your part. It is because it doesn’t make sense. The teaching rides roughshod over the English language, redefining what “generation” means, and relying on the audience to willfully bypass their logical thinking skills by asserting the incomprehensible as indisputable truth.
After all, if you can arbitrarily insist that a generation can be composed of two groups, why not have three, four, five – on into infinity? The word “generation” quickly loses all meaning.
The wisest course of action for Watchtower would have been to either distance itself from the “overlapping generation” teaching as a well-meaning slip-up (perhaps by arguing “this generation” was figurative rather than literal), or ignore the matter altogether.
Instead, the Governing Body apparently concluded that a 12-minute video presentation rehashing the teaching, complete with diagram and stick pointer, was just what the doctor ordered.
Their mistake is an inevitable byproduct of their delusion and bullish devotion to their own contrived dogma. It is, to my mind, further proof that the Governing Body are not cynical con-men but really do believe their own nonsense – and expect us to believe it too. Otherwise, they would have steered clear of the subject entirely, and spoken about something more compelling and universally appealing.
In addition to this obvious faux pas, I am also delighted at David Splane’s performance, which wreaked of cheesiness and insincerity…
As a side note – Splane is among three Governing Body members (together with Herd and Losch) who have apparently opted to deliver their JW Broadcasting episodes alongside “helpers” from the various Governing Body committees. The other Governing Body members (Lett, Morris, Sanderson and Jackson) tend to appear by themselves. I can’t help but question Splane’s decision to appear with a co-host, since he is in my view one of the more competent, persuasive speakers on the Governing Body. His uneasy interactions with his co-host only serve to undo the forcefulness of his individual presentation.
A costly mistake
When JW Broadcasting was first announced 11 months ago I said at the time it was great news. The worst thing the Governing Body could possibly do was reveal themselves to their doting followers. It is far easier to respect and admire your leaders when you can’t see or hear them. Having them thrusted at your TV screen or computer monitor in all their bumbling, arrogant, senile, jewelry-flashing glory changes the whole dynamic.
Yes, we have seen some extremely potent pieces of indoctrination designed to pull on the heart strings and appeal to people’s emotions. The standard episode will feature at least one visually appealing interview segment with powerful imagery and stirring music, in which a loyal Witness tears up as he or she relates how Jehovah’s hand has come to their rescue against all odds.
I will continue to do my best to expose these clearly coercive methods in my JW Broadcasting rebuttal videos. But I am growing increasingly confident that to any sincere, intellectually honest Witness capable of rudimentary reasoning skills, no rebuttals are needed. The delusion, absurdity and self-indulgence speaks for itself.
new-cedars-signature3
Further reading…
◾Friendly Atheist article
◾To see a list of video rebuttals to JW Broadcasting episodes, click here.
◾To read the JWfacts page on changes to the generation teaching, click here.
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← Inducing phobias: How the Watchtower uses irrational fears to solidify membership
12 things we learned from Geoffrey Jackson’s testimony at the Royal Commission →
277 Responses to David Splane explains the overlapping generation teaching (without actually explaining it)
← Older Comments
Ted says:
September 12, 2015 at 4:04 pm
Garrett, In anticipation of any possible survey, here’s
one or two off the cuff thoughts. How about the org
fragmenting into several schisms.
Different countries rejecting central control, because of the
Bizarre and embarrassing stuff that’s coming from there.
Look at the recent humiliation heaped upon the Australian
Branch, their policies were indefensible and the elders
made to look like bumbling fools. How much of that will
will people stand for.
I see the org, ditching date fixing and pushing, wars and
rumours of wars, earthquakes , critical times etc, of which
there’s a constant supply of material to draw on.
And as Robert Perez suggested, the mantra will then be.
Preach and wait on JHVH.
The bottom has fallen out of the literature business hence
the squeeze on the bros, to empty their bank accounts and
hand the cash over to them, even the appeal for the kids
ice cream money. The internet is killing recruitment so
revenue will be greatly reduced, leading to a downward
spiral,
They could continue for years but but not on the present
international scale. A realistic option is bankruptcy, from
which the top brass could still come away well heeled.
I’ll pipe down now. I’ve probably broken posting requirements.
So I extend my apologies to Cedars, and every one else.
Reply
Michele says:
September 12, 2015 at 4:12 pm
Speaking of the “Faithful and DECEITFUL slave”…I just read this and found it very interesting. Is it a way to send this to every Jehovah’s Witness?
http://avoidjw.org/2014/12/legally-establishing-watchtower-assets/
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Jake says:
September 13, 2015 at 1:39 pm
Michele, Hi, very interesting article you’ve posted there. Maybe the dropping of the loan repayments to the Society has to do with the legal rights of the borrower i.e. the publishers have a legal stake. Can anyone clarify? Cheers and thanks for the link, very useful.
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Meredith J says:
September 13, 2015 at 5:20 pm
We once gave a large sum of money which was all the money we had when we were very poor for the building of our kingdom hall. We were very new and thought it was the right thing to do at the time. Many of our congregation also gave so much time and money towards this project. I thought it was really strange that we had a special event to dedicate OUR hall to Jehovah or in other words the Watchtower Society.
We had organised a loan from them and we went through great pains to pay it off. Finally, an old brother decided to pay the loan out. Makes you wonder where they got the money from in the first place to loan it to us. Probably from all the donations which were being amassed annually which were to further the kingdom work. Like this wasn’t furthering the kingdom work? Then why didn’t they just give us the money? If they had it to loan to us then why didn’t they just give it to us instead and save us all the trouble. After all, the Catholic Church pays for churches. The local people don’t. It was just another scam.
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Faded says:
September 13, 2015 at 6:42 pm
Yikes! Such a confusing talk. And this Menlo Park Congregation thing that I read in a link speaking of the hierarchy. It’s so crazy!
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Jake says:
September 14, 2015 at 12:23 am
Yikes, so after putting poor people into debt they then make it a donation to the society. That’s like rent an apartment, rebuilding and refurbishing it, paying all the bills and then getting kicked out!, shameful.
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Gameisover says:
September 14, 2015 at 6:49 am
E
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Bad Penny says:
September 12, 2015 at 4:47 pm
This David Splane talk was another example of the totally ridiculous and confusing explanations of scripture that the G.B. keep splurting out to their indoctrinated masses.
The words of the wise man at Proverbs 15:16 seem appropriate, ‘Better is a little in the fear of the Lord than an abundant supply and confusion along with it.’
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1914 ha ha ha says:
September 12, 2015 at 5:13 pm
Michele, just read what you posted, wow!, but even when i showed the old man the proof about the UN membership, all i got back was ”where else would i go”. koolaid anyone.
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Garrett says:
September 12, 2015 at 5:48 pm
1914 ha ha ha,
When people ask “where would I go? ”
I respond “back to bed, it’s wonderful!”
I can’t tell you how much I enjoy sleeping in on the weekends now.
Additionally I use the illustration when people don’t know where to go is to ask- “if you found out you were drinking poison would you keep drinking from it just because you don’t know what else to drink?
Step one: stop drinking. Step 2 look for a clean water source. These days I choose to drink from Logic, Love and Free Will. I follow principles and facts, not men.
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Pickled brain says:
September 12, 2015 at 11:04 pm
@Garrett . GOOD ANSWER! Stop drinking the Poison !! I LIKE the ILLUSTRATION!! I shall give you GOOD on your theocratic Slip!! No need to give you ‘W’ or ‘I’ . You are Qualified to go on to your next point to work on !!!
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Markw1509 says:
September 13, 2015 at 4:49 am
@Garrett. Excellent response, and it shows how brainwashed they are. They are saying “I can’t think for myself, so I will stay with what I’ve got”. Ludicrous!
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anonymous says:
September 13, 2015 at 5:22 am
@Garret, I love your illustration and I will remember that the next time anybody tries to tell me that again.
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Scrubmaster says:
September 13, 2015 at 8:43 am
Garrett – great point. I know it is a point used in one of the public talks. Nice way to turn it around.
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Excelsior! says:
September 13, 2015 at 5:15 am
1914 ha ha ha,
This is a classic WTBTS misquote! The WTBTS paraphrase John 6:67,68 and replace Jesus with “Jehovah God’s spirit directed Organisation”.
A textbook example of cult manipulation!
The context of this verse shows that Jesus was pretty poor at explaining things to his early disciples, using a poor illustration that deeply offended and shocked many of his erstwhile followers. Many decided to leave at this point.
Jesus asks the 12 if they will leave him too. Peter answers by asking Jesus a question WHOM shall we go away to, Lord? YOU have sayings of everlasting life,”
The WTBTS have been able to substitute themselves with Jesus himself.
If any of you are still Christian, then leaving the WTBTS is NOT leaving Jesus Christ. Not by any means.
There are many examples of the WTBTS butchering the bible in this manner.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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JB Reezner says:
September 12, 2015 at 6:00 pm
Stepping back from the tunnel vision I have on the Org from my own long, embarrassing history of total acceptance of its preposterous belief system, I look out at nearly an entire world of people who are also guilty of their own disconnects from reality in one way or the other. Clearly, the reality we choose (or that is chosen for us) usually has more to do with things like our upbringing, mental state, gullibility, and education level than it does a hard look at facts and a determination to find proper evidence for what we are to believe. With that being the case, I suspect that the Org will continue to survive for a very long time. What I now happily believe is a realistic hope, though, is that it will continue to decrease in growth and will eventually begin to shrink in size. As WE know, the internet will NOT be the a BOON to the Org. It will be the bane of its existense. But, as long as there are a few people in the Org still willing to shovel out clumps of the usual crap, there will be a few people out there willing to let it stick when they’re hit with it.
A dear JW friend of mine who has no idea that I have been in total disagreement with him for the last several years recently told me about the convention he just attended. He said there were “OVER SIX THOUSAND” in attendance. And there were “TWENTY SIX BAPTIZED!”. He was genuinely trying to encourage me. He has no idea how encouraging those numbers truly were to me.
Of course, this comment is in reply to Garrett’s excellent suggestion of a survey regarding the fate of the Org. Let me also add the same apologies found at the end of Ted’s comment, along with all of the plagues of Revelation if my comment was too far off the beaten path or inappropriate in any way. I’m NEW here! (I’m gonna ride that excuse for as long as possible, lol…)
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Pickled brain says:
September 12, 2015 at 10:59 pm
@JB Reezner . You may be new here.BUT you show GREAT INSIGHT in your comments & much WISDOM as to why normally intelligent people fall for the GB Rubbish… EMOTIONALLY VULNERABLE is usually one of the main reasons.
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JB Reezner says:
September 13, 2015 at 8:38 am
Thank you very much for your kind words, Pickled brain! And I can certainly attest to emotional vulnerability frequently being a major factor in falling for hooey. My dear departed mother accepted the JW message as a teenager during a time of great vulnerability. She later passed it on to me. I don’t blame her at all. I understand. It’s just a very sad situation. As we all know, it’s very difficult for a child to know something is untrue when a parent (or parents) is saying it’s true.
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Pickled brain says:
September 13, 2015 at 9:33 am
@JB Reezner. You are a KIND & EMPATHETIC person UNLIKE the 7 CHARLATANS in BROOKLYN who SEPARATE JWs from their families if they DARE to DISAGREE with ANY DOCTRINE which A CHILD Might have Got BAPTISED at 11,12,14 etc. who didn’t fully comprehend the consequences!!
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Kaput says:
September 13, 2015 at 2:16 am
Excellent comments JB – I am a realist as well – this corporation will still be around in future – just less members who can remember the history and more faders and judicial commitee victims who suffer the lack of love and mind control.
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JB Reezner says:
September 13, 2015 at 10:35 am
Thank you, Kaput. Yes, sad but true.
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1914 ha ha ha says:
September 12, 2015 at 6:10 pm
Bro franz wil be shown on the graph as fwf, what it should be is wtf.Sorry couldnt let that one slip past.lol:)
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enuffsenuff says:
September 13, 2015 at 4:55 am
The Menlo Park case revisted. The WT has developed religious “new light” dogma to deal with a legal problem created by the Menlo Park case. The dogma has nothing to do with what Jesus described in Math 24 regarding the FDS. This is the first article that I have seen, that actually deals with a cynical and dishonest manipulation of scripture. The blatant concern for WT wealth and assets is stunning. The fact that they use scripture to connive a result is shocking. If they wanted to get control of assets at least do it in the sphere where it belongs- business and pay the tax.
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enuffsenuff says:
September 13, 2015 at 5:02 am
This piece is taken from The Menlo Park case;
And I say “organization.” I am general counsel for the National Organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses out of Brooklyn, New York. Ordinarily, I wouldn’t be here, but this is one of our 13,000 congregations in the United States. We are a hierarchal religion structured just like the Catholic Church. And when the order from the Pope comes down in the church defrocking a priest and kicking him out, he no longer has any say in any matter in the local parish priest — in the parish.
Sorry about doing this in bits but I was blocked by a program on the watch for spxxmmers. So I am being careful not to upset the silly thing.
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enuffsenuff says:
September 13, 2015 at 5:14 am
Still on Menlo Park Case, What this part explains is why the GB equals the FDS in a legal manoeuvre to keep assets in its hands and away from the ones that paid for their own KHalls This “composite slave” is a made up term created simply for legal reasons. Redefining the “Faithful & Discreet Slave” as solely the Governing Body and not all Anointed individuals closes a legal loophole that was noticed as part of the court cases with the 3 former elders from the Menlo Park Congregation in California.
Previously, all who saw themselves as “Anointed” had a share in the Watchtower’s Assets as they were legal representatives of “God’s Kingdom on Earth”. But changing the definition of the Faithful & Discreet Slave to just the Governing Body means that all Watchtower’s Assets are now safely in the hands of the small number of individuals who rule the organization from the top down, in a hierarchical fashion, “just like the Catholic Church”.
So, what they have done is explained a legal loophole in religious doctrine terms in the form of “new light” to stop the R and F from complaining. This is a dishonest manipulation of scripture, but it finally puts flesh on the bones of why the GB and the FDS are now one and the same.
All of this from the link http://avoidjw.org/2014/12/legally-establishing-watchtower-assets/2/
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Bad Penny says:
September 13, 2015 at 5:26 am
JB Reezner –
Love your comments.
We all stayed with the org because we thought it was the ‘truth’.
Thankfully, through the information highway, we can now find out real truth based on facts and hard evidence, not on Watchtower make believe!
Good to have you with us!
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JB Reezner says:
September 13, 2015 at 8:43 am
Thank you, Bad Penny! Very good to be here!
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Alex says:
September 13, 2015 at 6:17 am
It gets worse. There is no logic to this teaching and how anyone can be taken in by this explanation goes beyond me. Its all theory and wishful thinking to prop up the failing 1914 teaching. By the way the governing body will only love you if you obey and believe every word they say and empty yourself of intellect and emotion. Also they like to receive your money to live in luxury at their new Warwick HQ.
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Pickled brain says:
September 13, 2015 at 3:18 pm
@Alex . You have SUMMED UP THIS UTTER LUNATIC REASONING of the GB Perfectly!!!
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Ted says:
September 13, 2015 at 9:04 am
Hi Garrett, Those weekend sleep in’s. Sheer heavenly bliss !
nirvana ! No longer having to go out Sunday morning disturbing
everyone else’s well earned rest. Oh the abuse I’ve had from
people, rushing downstairs thinking it was something urgent.
Even on the 25th of Dec, One guy said to me, “Can’t you even
leave us alone today, ( He didn’t swear though, not on Christmas
day. )
The demands made on JWs are unreasonable. Can you vac,
pioneer during the one holiday of the year you get from work,
and guilted into doing so with such comments as, “Time is so
short, any available time not spent preaching, is time stolen from
JHVH”. And all for what’s proved to be a Mirage, a fantasy.
Great comments Garrett, and everyone,
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 13, 2015 at 10:43 am
Here’s a little ditty for you guys. I’ll dedicate it to Pickled brain. Your hilarious comment earlier in this thread about tying The Who’s song My Generation in with all of the GB’s generation nonsense inspired me! This has probably already been done before, but, what the heck… Sung to the tune of the GREAT Who song, “Baba O’Riley” (Much better if you listen to the actual song as you read it! youtu.be/gY5rztWa1TM)…
Blah Blah Un’Likely (Witness Wasteland)
Out here in the field
I preach, full of zeal
And with my “facts”, no proof is given
I know that “new light”
Ain’t always right
But I’m undaunted, when it isn’t
Don’t cry, the end is nigh
For all the Witness wasteland
Raymond* take my hand
And help me understand
Expose the liars who filled this bag on my shoulder
The exodus is here!
The web has made it clear!
Let’s get to leavin’, before we get much older
Witness wasteland
It’s such a Witness wasteland
Witness wasteland, oh yeah
Witness wasteland
My time was WASTED!
*Alternatively, “Cedars”, “Grundy”, etc. :)
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Garrett says:
September 13, 2015 at 11:11 am
Excellent Reez!
I sung it in my head to your words.
My favorite bands are Zeppelin and Sabbath.
I’ll eagerly wait for your next musical release based on those bands.
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JB Reezner says:
September 13, 2015 at 12:58 pm
Thanks Garrett, and challenge accepted! Zep happens to be my favorite band too.
Ramble On (youtu.be/uF_XI5pCxlo)
Be-leeefs are fallin’, all around
It’s time I was on my way
Thanks to you, my stunted mind
Is dizzy every day
But now it’s time for me to go
The internet lights my way
So take this guilt and pain, ‘n your millennial reign,
And shove it up your “A”!
Because I’ve grown so tired
But I know I’ve got one thing I got to do…
Ramble on!
Your full of crap, and it’s a trap
I stayed too long!
All around the world, your phony pearls
Have been a plague!
I’m finally brave enough to say
I’ll ramble on!
Could it be? I’m finally free!
Got no more time for spreadin’ “truth”
My time turned-in is all gone
And though I rang those bells a thousand times
Now, I’M the not-at-home
Ramble on!
Now’s the time, the time is now
I stayed too long!
I really cried -Hell, I nearly DIED
I can’t stay!
There ain’t no way skinny pants are (that) gay
I gotta ramble on!
This Witness thing ain’t what it seems
I ain’t tellin’ no more lies
Mine’s a tale that must be told
My FREEDOM I hold dear
How years ago, in days of old
When MAGIC filled the air
T’was in the early days of mankind,
…ehh, I better leave it there…
No skinny jeans wearers were harmed in the making of this song.
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Garrett says:
September 13, 2015 at 9:48 pm
Brilliant! You have a gift.
Why don’t you put those to the original songs and do a You Tube video and further the cause?!
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JB Reezner says:
September 13, 2015 at 10:07 pm
Thanks! I’ve noodled around on the guitar and keyboard for many years, but as for my singing, let’s not talk about it… But if anybody working for the ex-JW cause ever does want to use or improve upon anything I do here, they certainly have my blessing.
Tara says:
September 15, 2015 at 6:51 am
Perhaps the obvious choice for the next one would be ‘My Generation’.
I am a Deep Purple, Zepplin, Cream, fan. Brothers would ‘Rush’ around to see me if they found me watching ‘The Wall – Floyd’. Oh and I like Maiden too which has never gone down well. Maybe it was Bruce in his tight pants….
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Pickled brain says:
September 13, 2015 at 3:13 pm
@JB Reezner. YOU DEFINITELY HAVE STYLE!!
Before I came into the ‘TRUTH????’ At 23 my Favourite Band was The Who & can anyone out there believe this BUT I THREW ALL MY… WORLDLY….???? RECORDS Away when the Advice from The Most Holy ??was ‘If Jesus was in the room, Would you play & Listen to those Records!! As ROGER DALTREY Sang as the Lead Singer my Favourite Song …. ‘WON’T GET FOOLED AGAIN ‘!!!!! Absolutely Brilliant Song! I think Every Ex-JW should play it to themselves!!!
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JB Reezner says:
September 13, 2015 at 3:40 pm
TRAGIC!! But I can relate. I made similar sacrifices. Zeppelin, Van Halen, Prince (yes, PRINCE), ended up being silenced for many years in my life. But they’ve all come back with a VENGEANCE!
Won’t Get Fooled Again crossed my mind before I made my little ditty. But, as you suggest, the words are already PERFECT and very relevant to ex-JW’s! One of the greatest songs EVER, as many Who songs are.
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Markw1509 says:
September 13, 2015 at 11:45 am
Let’s just assume that they are right about the overlapping generation. (Can’t believe I just wrote that, but bear with me!).
We are supposed to believe that Jesus said ‘this generation won’t pass away’ but that he meant this could be around 130 years or more. Why would Jesus say keep on the watch if it really wasn’t that urgent? Why give a warning at all if the time period was going to be that long? In the literal fulfilment, the gap was 37 years. How could the secondary fulfilment be 3 to 4 times as long? Why the urgency, if that’s how Jesus really meant it?
Sorry, GB, I simply can’t see the second fulfilment panning out like that. Maybe any JWs visiting this site can ex-splane.
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Robertperez67 says:
September 13, 2015 at 1:52 pm
Very active JW here, and nope there is no justification for this circle jerk. At today’s meeting the Watchtower actually went on and on about the curses that await today’s false prophets that live at the expense of the suckers that believed in them. I just stared the conductor in the eye with the biggest grin constantly nodding my head. It took everything I had to keep from exploding in laughter. And the comments, oh the simple, simple comments of every simpleton in the room trying to outdo each other in “their” enlightenment, having understood this new light. The article repeated over and over ” although we aren’t positive” and any number of attendees would shoot their hands up to say “yes, yes I see it now and it was right there all along.” These people are hopelessly brainwashed, the broadcast says one thing and the magazine says another and no one catches on. This particular article just casually changed the meaning of a bunch of JW doctrine and everyone is so used to the wheel of fortune prophecies in JW literature that no one bats an eye, they are trully numb to the greater meaning of all this.
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Pickled brain says:
September 13, 2015 at 3:27 pm
@Robertperez67. I was sitting in the Watchtower Study today THINKING the SAME THING AS YOU !! HOW IN THE HELL CAN HUMAN BEINGS BE SO GULLIBLE??? How can anyone FALL FOR THIS EVER CHANGING NEW LIGHT AGAIN!!!!!
I also have a silly Grin on my face thinking how many in this room are thinking the same as me??
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ruthlee says:
September 14, 2015 at 12:59 am
hi rob perez me too at the tower yesterday paragraph 4 mentioned the 10 horn giving support to the united nations i HAD to comment that WE should never in no way ever give or be known for giving our support to the united nations there was a silence in the kh it resonated with a few and afterward a bro came up to me and thumbs up we are not daft just biding time ruthlee
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anonymous says:
September 14, 2015 at 3:06 am
I am looking at yesterday’s Watchtower “Your Deliverance is Getting Near” and paragraph 10 tells about Gog of Magog from Ezek. 38:10-12 and says Gog of Magog is a coalition of nations and how they are “eager to attack Jehovah’s anointed ones as well as their associates” but if you read what the Watchtower quotes from Ezekiel, it does describe the Watchtower corporation when it says of Gog of Magog “It will be to take much spoil and plunder, to attack the devastated places that are now inhabited and a people regathered from the nations, who ARE ACCUMULATING WEALTH AND PROPERTY, THOSE LIVING IN THE CENTER OF THE EARTH.”
I don’t think ordinary Witnesses are the ones accumulating wealth and property but those who it seems to describe to me is the Watchtower Corporation, not the rank and file.
Also paragraph 16 also talks about Gog of Magog but it just says Gog (the Bible says Gog of Magog though) and they again reference Ezekiel but the Watchtower in that paragraph says “shortly before the remaining ones of the 144,000 are taken to heaven, Gog will attack God’s people.”
What the Watchtower didn’t do was to take the reader to Revelation chapter 20:8 where the Bible actually tells about when Gog of Magog will attack God’s people and that is because verse 7 says it’s as soon as the thousand years have ended.
Leaving out Revelation chapter 20:8 was on purpose and that was so that people wouldn’t look it up and see that it is not “shortly before the remaining ones of the 144,000 are taken to heaven” but it’s after the thousand years had ended.
That was deceitful and telling. It tells me that the Society are all really stupid or evil.
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Pickled brain says:
September 14, 2015 at 2:57 pm
@Anonymous. JUST PLAIN EVIL!! Let’s be Generous & Call a Spade a Spade… You are Right about Gog & Rev.20 v8
Tara says:
September 15, 2015 at 6:45 am
I had a ‘headache’ and left after the talk.
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Catalina says:
September 13, 2015 at 1:59 pm
Today I went to the Sunday morning meeting to make my sister happy. The watchtower study was from the July 15, 2015 magazine. Inside the magazine under – Life Story, Remembering My First Love Has Helped Me to Endure, As told by Anthony Morris he said he served in the Vietnam war and some men he knew were killed and he said Jehovah will bring those young men back to life and they will have a chance to learn the truth about him. Has Jw teaching changed while I was out 21 years ? Does anyone know ? My sister said she is confused. I thought worldly people will be destroyed. Is there a change in their teaching ?
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JB Reezner says:
September 13, 2015 at 2:48 pm
The belief is still that the vast majority of non-Witnesses will have their guts stomped out, tomorrow, during Armageddon. As for people who have died, the belief is that the vast majority of them will be resurrected due to being ‘acquitted from their sin’ (because they died) -Rom 6:7. After the resurrection, THEY get a do-over. But the poor non-JW men, women, children, little Baptist grandmas and peace-loving Buddhists alive when Armageddon comes are simply out of luck. Bird food.
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pearlsB4swine says:
September 13, 2015 at 3:37 pm
Frustratingly, I have never come across a single JW in my area willing or able to talk about the whole generation thingy. Just an innocent question like “how would you explain the overlapping generation if asked?” makes them visibly uncomfortable and they change the subject. And why wouldn’t it, it’s total bollocks and they know it.
Why would Jesus deliver a message/prophecy so cryptic, so convoluted and ridiculous when the eternal life of the hearer depends upon their understanding and acceptance of it?
Give it up WT, admit it already, the “generation” teaching is dead in the water.
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JB Reezner says:
September 13, 2015 at 8:43 pm
You’re logic is rock solid, pearlsB4swine. I wish that was enough. When I asked a friend who is an active Witness that very question about what he says to people regarding the overlapping generation teaching, he said ‘Nooo no no, I don’t go near that thing.’ He understands how convoluted it is, and sometimes we have what I think are productive discussions. But sadly, he then goes to a meeting at the Hall and his brain completely RESETS back into harmony with the Org’s indoctrination. I’ve seen it happen several times now. When you’re finally on the outside looking back in at that phenomenon, it is truly a bizarre thing. Incredibly disturbing and sad.
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Ted says:
September 13, 2015 at 3:51 pm
Catalina, I don’t think there’s been a change as to who gets
resurrections and who doesn’t. They’ve always claimed
that only “Dead” worldly people will be made alive, sometime
after Armageddon. But it’s the “Live” worldly ones who will
be snuffed when the fireworks start.
On that basis, if you’re in any doubt as to which category
you’re in, Getting knocked down by a bus is your best
option. It’s so reassuring when there’s someone who can
tell you exactly what God is thinking. Makes life much
simpler,– I think !
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JB Reezner says:
September 13, 2015 at 4:12 pm
Jehovah, if you’re really up there, let Roger Federer win this one…
Since 1914, he’s won 5 US Opens. Don’t let him lose simply because he’s been overlapped by the Novak Djokovic generation. (There, I made it relevant to this thread, lol.)
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JB Reezner says:
September 13, 2015 at 6:15 pm
Scratch this off-topic sports comment. I want to be lighthearted here, but not to the point of being flippant. Besides, Roger might actually win and cause me to have to re-evaluate some things…
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Pickled brain says:
September 13, 2015 at 10:25 pm
@JB Breezner. Federer Lost!!! I don’t think you have been Donating Enough Money,Time,& Energy to our MOST HOLY & MOST Wonderful Governing Body!!!!! Jehovah obviously hasn’t answered your Prayer!!
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JB Reezner says:
September 13, 2015 at 11:18 pm
You crack me up, PB! I know!! I watched the whole tragic match. Truthfully, the surest way to get somebody to lose is to have ME root for them! I have about a 1% success rate in choosing winners. Maybe I should go back to rooting for the Org. That way, they would surely collapse! Good night, my friend :)
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Ted says:
September 13, 2015 at 4:44 pm
Just to be clear, the categories I’m referring to,
are worldly or otherwise.
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Ted says:
September 13, 2015 at 5:07 pm
ruthlee I’m honoured to be regarded as your brother.
I wish you well in all you do.
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ruthlee says:
September 14, 2015 at 1:03 am
thanks ted we are all in this together ruth lee
Reply
Catalina says:
September 13, 2015 at 6:33 pm
Soooo…. that means people who died during the 9/11 attacks will be resurrected but if their families wont make it if they are still worldly people when harmagedon strikes. I think someone in charge wants everyone to live and made this rule up. Thank you, you guys for answering my question.
Reply
Catalina says:
September 13, 2015 at 6:34 pm
Soooo…. that means people who died during the 9/11 attacks will be resurrected but their families wont make it if they’re worldly when harmagedon strikes. I think someone in charge wants everyone to live and made this rule up. Thank you, you guys for answering my question
Reply
LOL says:
September 13, 2015 at 9:02 pm
“The delusion, absurdity and self-indulgence speaks for itself.” As does yours Mr. Cedars. As does yours.
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 13, 2015 at 9:43 pm
“As does yours”? You mean you agree with Cedars’ observations about the Org, but you also think that he shares those same debilitating qualities? That’s a fairly schizophrenic position to take…
Reply
LOL says:
September 14, 2015 at 9:45 am
Are you his guardian?
Reply
anonymous says:
September 14, 2015 at 11:41 am
LOL, what is the matter with you???? If you have a problem with Cedars, then why not identify yourself and what is your problem with Cedars? If you don’t like this web site, then go some place else.
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 14, 2015 at 1:25 pm
@LOL: No, I’m not anyone’s guardian (except for my little doggy). It just appeared to me that you may have structured your zinger improperly. That, added to the tinge of unwarranted self-satisfaction, struck me personally as mildly offensive and worthy of a mildly defensive reply. It was mostly an issue of your phrasing.
As for defending Cedars, I would never presume that he would need me or anyone else for that. Besides, if you’re in disagreement with him, or with what you find on this site that has educated and comforted so many, that would be more of an issue of your insanity. I have yet to find an effective verbal defense against that.
But, if I misunderstood your intent, please accept my apology and have a nice day :)
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 13, 2015 at 9:57 pm
@LOL . We all have Faults my CRITICAL FRIEND !! There is a BIG BIG Difference between The 7 EVIL MEN of BROOKLYN & Cedars …. The 7 EVIL GB are MANIPULATING & ROBBING 8 MILLION INNOCENT People of their TIME, ENERGY, MONEY,REAL ESTATE,WILLS,STOCKS&SHARES.PENSIONS & CHILDREN of their ICE CREAM MONEY!!!
& WHAT FOR? To FINANCE A PROPERTY & PUBLISHING EMPIRE!!!
Reply
Wip it says:
September 13, 2015 at 9:26 pm
Thats a point i see all the time, someone who has died in the past comes back & all their non JW wicked family are killed of, & they go where are my kids, etc, that is not a god of love thing, we had an elder use the term “big BBQ” at the end, totaly deranged, here’s another question that i have asked a few, the bible talks about domestic animals in the NS, the question is will our pets die, the answer i get is yes, god has only given the hope of everlasting life to humans, but i say revelation says thet death will be no more, so we will have to cope with animals dyeing another flaw. Ever have a child that has lost a beloved pet, no love their.
Reply
ruthlee says:
September 14, 2015 at 1:13 am
hi folks just to wind hubby up i asked him to lead the fs with a quiz,. can anyone explain the generations in three scriptures .ha ha said he would have trouble explaining it .just a thought about the menlo cong those dear bros were appointed to look after sheep how devastating to be turned upon and ripped open in a court of law over money. greed has eaten up this rotten lot we call the slave ,yes i reckon the lunatics have taken over the asylum just think im part of a dual generation i can say whatever age i am and i knew elvis ha ha (no i didnt) lets all think of a loony topic and send it to crooklyn and see if the god channel is open. so much for a highway of holiness more the grand ol information superhighway , a new babel bringing knowledge together wether for good or bad its on record for all to see end of rant ruthlee
Reply
anonymous says:
September 14, 2015 at 3:25 am
My husband would never think to put on jwbroadcasting so I put it on for him to watch so after he watched it, I asked him if he could explain the overlapping generation to me and his comment was “I have to watch it again” so I put it on for him again yesterday. I haven’t asked him again but just the fact that he said he had to watch it again, says a lot.
Reply
Nick says:
September 14, 2015 at 3:25 am
I think this time they have really proven how wacky they are. When I imagine the GB meeting and discussing directives it must be something out of Alice in Wonderland -THE MAD HATTERS LUNCH.
Reply
Ted says:
September 14, 2015 at 4:10 am
The bouncing of the Menlo Park elders for daring to challenge
Hierarchical authority. Exposes the “Designed to flatter teaching”
of being appointed by Holy Spirit as a load of eyewash.
“When the order comes down from the Pope defrocking a priest
and kicking him out. He no longer has a say in the matter. —
( Calvin Rous, WT, attorney )
“One is your master, all of you are brothers”. Matt,23:8.
Reply
A Patient Man says:
September 14, 2015 at 5:47 am
Since the beginning of my life as a youngster I prided myself on reading and trying very hard to understand what I read from the bible and the mountain of material that was provided for us. Then in turn be able to explain it to someone with a good heart, (we believe that we know if someone has a good heart), the reality is that we don’t really know about their heart condition, that most important determination belongs to God, and their life lies in his very capable hands. So after a very long time being a witness I have finally figured out that if something was written under inspiration, or however they want to tell you they received the understanding, (for example, the generation topic), then for 50 or 60 years or even longer it should be able to stand the test of time and not be changed. The number of beliefs that have been changed, some of which have been around for close to 100 years, is staggering. The truth is I no longer try to keep up, the reality is my brain is turning to mush. I hear the friends, and even my family members try vainly to explain what they think the understanding is on these ever changing topics. I am much happier not worrying what is new and what is old, and if I am ask by anyone to explain these changes I simply say, I cannot. The ones that I say this to get a funny look on their face and move on to the next unsuspecting victim looking for the answer that will make them happy. At a dinner with family, some of these changes came up in the discussion and I sat quietly by and listened, it is amazing when you sit and listen carefully what you will hear. And another reason I don,t say anything is that I not longer feel like being chastised by my family for not being spiritual enough, or heaven forbid not keeping up with the “light”. To tell all of you the truth I feel like Lilly Von Schtupp ,(spelling?), in the movie Blazing Saddles when she said, “I’m Tired’. I am glad those of you that write, that your brain is still functioning on all cylinders, keep up the good fight!
Reply
anonymous says:
September 14, 2015 at 6:21 am
@A Patient Man, I was exactly the same as you. I couldn’t keep up anymore and so my brain had turned to mush. Once I started to see all the lies and over-ups of the Society and I started to use my brain again, I realized that I actually did have a functioning brain after all. When I look around at all those that are in the Organization and think it’s the “truth”, I feel sorry for them.
I was listening to a couple of videos from a youtuber called Christian Comedy Channel and he has several videos where he is discussing with Witnesses, the book “What Does the Bible Really Teach” and he discusses 1914, failed prophecies, the overlapping generation and flip flopping doctrines and what the Witnesses would tell him is something to the effect “that is what we used to think but now we believe this”. So, what those Witnesses were saying in effect is that they left their brains go dead and whatever the Society says is what they now believe and they can’t think for themselves anymore. It’s truly sad.
Reply
questionall451 says:
September 14, 2015 at 7:46 am
A patient man,
I feel very much the same. I checked out a few years ago, the last time we went through the wonderful Revelation book. I remember sitting there like a deer looking into oncoming headlights, wondering how I would explain that each of the 7 trumpet blasts correspond to a resolution passed at a CederPoint Ohio convention. Or how the army of locusts is leaving behind stinging judgement messeges in the Watchtower and Awake publications. The whole thing was an elaborate house of cards. If even one of these interpetations is wrong, the whole mess just falls apart.
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 14, 2015 at 9:03 am
@questionall451. Don’t Worry I FELT the SAME as YOU after studying the RED REVELATION book for the Third Time.!! Those DAMN TRUMPET BLASTS always Got Me !! & the The DAMN Stinging Locusts! I knew NO-ONE on the Ministry would Believe or Understand the GB Explanation of that rubbish!!
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 14, 2015 at 10:40 am
I was still thoroughly snowed when we went through that book in the mid 90’s, but I do remember a slight tingly feeling as I saw that all the little infinitesimal early goings-on of the WTBTS were supposedly addressed prophetically throughout the chapters of Revelation. I didn’t doubt that I had the Truth. I just thought that maybe there were some things there that they weren’t exactly 100% right about. I was 100% dumb. But I’m being treated for that condition now.
Your user image is great. Applewhite/Lett -two world-class space cadets. When the GB starts talking about the Hale-Bopp comet, you hanger-onners better get the HELL outta there!
Reply
Outlookingin says:
September 14, 2015 at 12:47 pm
Aha! Some fellow Revelation book doubters. I recall driving home each week after the book study and telling my husband how hard I found it to agree with the material. He always asked whether it really mattered, and I had to agree that many of the things I struggled with were of little significance. Eventually I ceased answering in the book study because I felt such a hypocrite doing so. We decided at the time that we had the big things right and this seemed to keep us going. Of course, more recently we have changed our minds about having the big things right. One can hardly say of the generation teaching that it doesn’t really matter, that it is of little consequence! I just wish I had listened to my head of reason back then with the Revelation book (and others) and not continued sacrificing so much time and energy.
Reply
Ted says:
September 14, 2015 at 7:59 am
JB,Reezner, Garrett, Pickled Brain.
Sabbath, Zeppelin, and Who did you say. I’m well out of the
loop here guys, just not my generation. I can only go back to
O’l Blue Eyes, and I’m struggling with the “Overlapping.
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 14, 2015 at 10:15 am
Yes Ted, “Behind Blue Eyes” was a GREAT song by The Who! Oh, no, you mean Sinatra. He was great, indeed. I mean, he wasn’t part of my personal music collection, but I liked My Way, New York, New York, Somethin’ Stupid, That’s Life, etc. But I do see where it would be difficult for a fan of primarily his type of music to transition from that style to the music that came along shortly after.
But if history has taught us anything, it’s that we members of previous generations can join together (Join Together, by the way, another great Who song) in HATING the garbage on the radio that kids are listening to these days! (seriously)
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 14, 2015 at 2:35 pm
@Ted. ‘THE END is NEAR’ …. ‘The FINAL CURTAIN ‘
…I DID IT MY WAY’ !!!! This could be the Signature Tune of the Governing Body!! Perhaps Good Old FRANK was a Secret Member of the GB???
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 14, 2015 at 3:28 pm
PB that was BRILLIANT! A+ to you!
And maybe for us, “Start spreadin’ the news, I’m leavin’ todayyy”. Okay, maybe not. That’s a song about going TO New York instead of gettin’ the HELL outta there!
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 14, 2015 at 11:21 pm
@JB Reezner. THANKS JB,much appreciated.We have a similar sense of humour. When I comment at meetings my wife (who idolises the GB) says my answers sound nearly Apostate like!!!
I have been counselled by the Watchtower Overseer !! Doesn’t stop me though!
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 15, 2015 at 10:21 am
Excellent, PB. I know that surely you’d rather not be there, but I guess if you have to be, you can at least say some things that might make other WT victims THINK. Good on ya!
ruthlee says:
September 14, 2015 at 8:33 am
dear a patient man guess what i had was terminal brainmush bordering on failure to thrive a very serious self diagnosable condition actually a requirement if you qualify as a jw in lala land .the remedy Stop reading drivel and if you feel so inclined go back to reading the Bible only. i did my last jw spew the return to Jehovah brochure and miracle of miracles that is exactly what i have done im putting on spiritual weight just like a baby getting bonny and strong ..so there is a cure Gods word. its not rocket science and its free and you can stop the cure anytime you please .ive returned to God with the aid of these friends here of all pursuasions and no more mashed potato coming out of my ears its great. you will know when your brain starts to work again because you start getting cheeky about the loons who govern us and then you parody them and final cure, uncontrollable laughter. after all laughter is the best medicine anyone fancy half a pint of generation gap its on tap at hq. tee hee ruthlee
Reply
Average Joe says:
September 14, 2015 at 9:01 am
Hi all,
Just received this new Public Talk outline (Nº 192) and the second section has some very interesting statements, and I quote:
“We need strong confidence in the Bible to choose a path contrary to the one followed by others around us
If you are not fully convinced that the Bible is God’s Word, then examine the evidence (g 11/07 5-9)
Use the Bible to examine your current beliefs carefully
Jesus emphasized the need for our beliefs to be based on truth [Read John 4:23, 24]
Like the apostle Paul, be willing to change your beliefs when presented with evidence (Ac 26:9-20)”
I would so like to give this one. I already stress in some other talks I have that we have to PERSONALLY check to make sure a teaching rings true with what we already know from the Bible, even if we hear it from the platform but I thought that this outline could be very handy in defending yourself for disagreeing with a WTS Policy.
Here’s a copy of the actual outline (valid only for 7 days on WeTransfer so get it whilst it’s hot!):http://we.tl/1EnHB6GcQ7
All the best.
AJ
Reply
Robert67 says:
September 14, 2015 at 12:35 pm
No thanks on the outline, I’m in the middle of a bs cleanse at the moment. Just a suggestion, perhaps as a matter of showing how the jw brotherhood has embraced change bring up a few of the failed prophecies that the gb has mustered up over the years. Maybe you could start by criticizing other faiths and pointing to Moses playbook to how to inherit the promised land Deutoronomy 18:20-22, Segway into the very wise council given in Proverbs 30:5,6 and how Jesus closes all scripture in the closing words of the Bible in Revelation 22: 18-21. Make a huge deal of people who exploit scripture for profit and are proven liars and false prophets when they say God is doing something and then he doesn’t, or they twist Gods word in every manner to suit their agenda. Maybe the body could be building up people like Russel, Ruggerford, Franz etc.. and then close mentioning your closing text Acts 26:9-20 and try to decent the failed 1914 Armageddon date, how Russel got it wrong about all the annointed having been completed in 1881, how Rutherford got the millions now living will never die bit off, how perhaps he jumped the gun saying the prophets of old were to arrive in 1925 and building them a luxury mansion, which he conveniently lived and passed away in. How 1975 was really just a guesstimate and everyone makes mistakes and that we all according to Paul’s words, screw all those other Biblical exortations, are supposed to just “be ready to embrace the new, new, new thing. Just an idea for your talk, I’m sure you can find a way to word it so that it seems genuinely in defence of GB.
Reply
Robert67 says:
September 14, 2015 at 12:40 pm
Laser keyboard, facepalm at all the misspelled words.
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 14, 2015 at 1:42 pm
“Ruggerford” is turning over in his grave for that mistake! Oops, I mean he’s turning over in Heaven. I can see him now, cruising those streets of gold in his 16-cylinder Cadillac, screaming “I’m the Generalissimooo!”
Reply
briefcasegone says:
September 15, 2015 at 6:31 am
jb reezner
…feel as though I know you so well!!
truly well written ..
JB Reezner says:
September 15, 2015 at 10:26 am
I really appreciate that, briefcasegone. I’m still feeling out the boundaries here and hoping not to offend anyone. Glad to meet ya!
Pickled brain says:
September 14, 2015 at 2:42 pm
@Robert67 . CLEVER,VERY CLEVER… I LIKE YOUR CUNNING!! There are subtle ways to show up the STUPIDITY of the GB & that’s the best way to appear to be on the GB Side but SOW SEEDS of DOUBT & Playing Theocratic Warfare in Reverse… Brilliant!!
Reply
ruthlee says:
September 14, 2015 at 2:20 pm
last post of the day i needed this today ive set up a menu and invited a few birds to feast on all the garbage that has accumulated,. here is the list, the blue footed booby, the roseate spoonbill. the lyre bird, a murder of crows ,an unkindness of ravens and of course the loon enjoy your meal its on us rl
Reply
Ted says:
September 14, 2015 at 4:59 pm
Problems only arise with Matt 24,when you remove it from it’s
proper time frame ( Jesus Own Generation) and try to apply it
to some future random generation. Which according to WT.org
happens to be this greatly extended one that began in 1914.
Different generations in the past have also claimed, it was to
their time that those Bible verses applied.
There is no confusion if we let the Bible speak for itself and not
try to impose meanings upon it.
Jesus unambiguously ties the fulfilment to his own time only
At Matt 16:27-27. ( to paraphrase) Jesus is coming with his
Angels to mete out justice, and there are some standing here
who will not taste death, till they see the son coming in his
Kingdom,
For those imposing a future fulfilment, these verses present a
problem, so they sidestep this by misapplying the reference
of some there seeing Jesus coming in his Kingdom. And claim
it refers to the Transfiguration.
If you read the transfiguration account in Matt ch,17. you will
instantly see it has no connection with the previous verses.
Nowhere is there any reference to Jesus coming with his
Angels to administer any justice.– That happened in 70CE
and Within that Generation
Rev,22:7 Jesus says, “I come quickly” by no stretch of the
imagination can 2000 plus years be described in those terms.
Some similar references to the urgency, are- Jas, 5:8-9,
1pet, 4:7 & 17.
Move Matt 24, out of context, and all kinds of unsatisfactory
scriptural contortions are required and it still won’t make sense.
Reply
eyes opened says:
September 14, 2015 at 7:50 pm
Amen.
Reply
Robertperez67 says:
September 14, 2015 at 8:34 pm
Since you never get to read it at the hall, Mathew 24: keeps going by adding this bit “But if ever that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ 49 and he STARTS TO BEAT his fellow slaves and to eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, 50 the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, 51 and he will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his place with the HYPOCRITES. There is where his weeping and the gnashing of his teeth will be. ———-• Here in Puerto Rico, there are some serious changes coming. The flood gates have been open and the congregations will slowly be learning these truths, so much good work to do. I really hope everyone helping others come to learn these truths about the WT does so respectfully and keeps in mind that the main instrument the friends will listen to is scripture and reasoning the way they are used to. Blatant God bashing comments are only going to make them put up a thicker wall against anything you have to say, regardless of how logical your argument is. Even in my case God will never be in the wrong. Many, many like myself will wake up, because we, unlike a good portion of the friends, have actually read the Bible over and over. We will always place Gods word, his sons message of love, mercy, healing, and freedom from religious oppression over that of the self appointed and treadmill allergic seven.
The absolute majority of the friends have seen cowardly shift supervisors (elders) strike down with great vengeance on under age sinners for sins they committed while being sinful kids, a condition which God left us in, hence the need for his sons sacrifice, whose blood worth outweighs any sins we can possibly commit and still they shun children at their most crucial stage in life. We have to stay focused on attacking the cult and not the faith. Keep informing the masses as to the brain fart methodology used by these dangerously uneducated oppressors. Keep instilling in the friends that no man, not even the 7 samurai, can alter Gods word.
I cannot picture any media outlet takeing faith bashers seriously, if you bash the Bible you insult a billion viewers. No sponsor can back up or push a hate site or podcast. We have to see the bigger picture and be self sacrificing in this “crusade” to free the mentally enslaved.
Reply
JB Reezner says:
September 14, 2015 at 10:27 pm
Great points, Robert. Sensitivity to people’s varied levels of religious faith is vital here. I’m new here (my favorite excuse!) and I’m still going through the phase of regretting the tone and content of at least A THIRD of my comments immediately after I hit the Post Comment button.
I don’t want to seem self-important enough to think you were referring to some of my comments, but if you do run across any submission of mine that seems to cross a line, please feel free to directly reply with something like “Okay, reel it in, JB! You went too far, you idiot!!”, and I will take the reminder to heart. Okay, you won’t really need to call me an idiot. (It will just be implied, lol.)
Reply
Doc Obvious says:
September 15, 2015 at 6:35 am
After reviewing the broadcast network from Governing Body member David Splane, I am still confused. The Scripture states “this generation”, not “these generations”. Watchtower continues to Band-Aid their broken prophesies.
Reply
ruthlee says:
September 15, 2015 at 7:06 am
hi ted and robert loved your thoughts and explanations its so true we have to be loving and kind but sometimes the anger and frustration arises within i suppose thats where really being a Christian shows up. the scriptures really are unalterable and speak Truth anyone is at liberty to read a Bible if they choose to .i guess so many got out of the habit and have been kept busy doing nothing. i hope we will look back at this time and realise we were part of a testimony that brought about some change and enlightenment as a force for good . what do you think?ruthlee
Reply
Doc Obvious says:
September 15, 2015 at 7:30 am
David Splane talks to his lemmings. YouTube has a nice video on lemmings. Lemming video. You can see the parallels between a JW and a lemming.
Reply
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← David Splane explains the overlapping generation teaching (without actually explaining it)
12 things we learned from Geoffrey Jackson’s testimony at the Royal Commission
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Posted on September 14, 2015
Geoffrey Jackson's appearance before the Royal Commission left many questions unanswered
Geoffrey Jackson’s appearance before the Royal Commission left many questions unanswered
If you are one of the many current and former Jehovah’s Witnesses who spent much of last month glued to your screen watching the Australian Royal Commission into child abuse, likely you are still dumbfounded by the testimony of one person in particular: Governing Body member Geoffrey Jackson.
Senior Watchtower officials did their very best to stop Jackson from appearing, dismissing his relevance to the commission and insinuating that he was only involved in “translation.” Their efforts at insulating their leader drew the ire of Senior Council Angus Stewart, who accused Australian branch coordinator Terrence O’Brien of deliberately trying to mislead the commission over Jackson’s role.
Finally the commission saw through the shenanigans and Jackson was faced with an official summons to appear – a summons carrying legal ramifications if he failed to show. In the end, despite being in Australia (to tend to his sick father), Jackson opted to give his appearance by video link – to the disappointment of many who would have like to have seen him appear in person.
Wearing a dark three-piece suit and stripey tie, and seated at a table in what appeared to be an office conference room, Jackson had an air of confidence about him. He addressed the judge and senior council respectfully, but any humility seemed strained – especially in the context of some of the more defiant and pious expressions that were to follow.
Overall, Jackson’s testimony was a masterclass in evading the torrent of difficult questions unleashed upon him. Angus Stewart and Judge McClellan bombarded him with topics as diverse as corporal punishment, the two witness rule, the role of women, and shunning.
Jackson ducked and swerved any difficult, potentially incriminating questions with the finesse of an Aussie-rules footballer, albeit without possessing the corresponding physique. “That’s not my field” became his default retort, and if he didn’t like the question he wasn’t above modifying it in his answer. Even outright lies were deployed by the Governing Body member in his eagerness to get past the full-time whistle unscathed.
It’s difficult to do justice to the full day-long exchange, but I have taken the liberty of compiling a handy list of 12 key pieces of testimony given by Jackson that were either unusual, revealing, or downright misleading.
If you would like to examine Geoffrey Jackson’s testimony for yourself, you can do so in PDF form on this link, or using the video playlist at the foot of this article.
1. Ordinary Jehovah’s Witnesses can now officially acknowledge the problem of child abuse (at least in theory)
01 Jackson
As recently as February, Jackson’s co-Governing Body member Stephen Lett dismissed criticism of the organization’s child abuse record as “apostate-driven lies and dishonesties.”
Curiously, the morning worship video in which these comments were made was subsequently pulled from tv.jw.org, but not before it could be downloaded and responded to by yours truly in the following YouTube video (skip to 03:10 to see Lett’s comments)…
As I commented at the time, rather than being “lies and dishonesties” the criticism of Watchtower’s child abuse mishandling was fully warranted, not least by the multi-million dollar judgments in both the Candace Conti and Jose Lopez verdicts of 2012 and 2014 respectively.
Still more recently, another Governing Body member, Tony Morris, indulged in an extraordinary rant on the issue of child abuse in the July 2015 JW Broadcasting episode. Not only did Morris attempt to scapegoat gay people as culpable for child molestation – he also claimed that the organization was proud of its reputation regarding child abuse and were even ahead of the game in that issue compared to the “somewhat naive” secular authorities.
Little over a month later, and under serious questioning by the senior council of a Royal Commission, Morris’ colleague Geoffrey Jackson sang an entirely different tune (bold is mine)…
Stewart: Do you recognise, Mr Jackson ‐ and in asking this question, let me make it clear, I’m not suggesting it is peculiar to the Jehovah’s Witness organisation, there are many, many organisations in this position ‐ but do you accept that the Jehovah’s Witness organisation has a problem with child abuse amongst its members?
Jackson: I accept that child abuse is a problem right throughout the community and it’s something that we’ve had to deal with as well.
Stewart: Do you accept that the manner in which your organisation has dealt with allegations of child sexual abuse has also presented problems?
Jackson: There have been changes in policies over the last 20 or 30 years, where we’ve tried to address some of those problem areas, and by the fact that they have changed the policy would indicate that the original policies weren’t perfect.
Stewart: And you accept, of course, that your organisation, including people in positions of responsibility, like elders, is not immune from the problem of child sexual abuse?
Jackson: That appears to be the case.
So there you have it. Jehovah’s Witnesses can now officially speak openly about their religion having a problem with child sexual abuse because, according to a member of the Governing Body, “that appears to be the case.”
Of course, whether there would be judicial ramifications anyway for speaking openly about child abuse in such an Orwellian organization is another matter entirely. Don’t expect “but Geoffrey Jackson said it’s true” to be a bullet-proof defense if you find yourself bundled into a backroom by the elders for mentioning the child abuse problem in a comment at the kingdom hall.
Stewart then went on to ask Jackson a line of questions that seemed expressly designed to counter the preposterous “apostate-driven lies and dishonesties” claim by Stephen Lett…
Stewart: Do you accept, Mr Jackson, that many of the efforts that are being made by different people and organisations to highlight the issue of child sexual abuse and try and find solutions are genuine efforts to improve the situation?
Jackson: I do accept that, and that’s why I’m happy to testify.
Stewart: And that such efforts are not necessarily an attack on your organisation or its system of beliefs?
Jackson: We understand that, too.
Stewart: You described earlier in your testimony that the work of this Royal Commission is beneficial. Do you accept, then, that the Royal Commission’s efforts are genuine and well‐intentioned?
Jackson: I certainly do. And that’s why we came in to the Royal Commission hoping that collectively something would come forward that would help us as well as everybody else.
Stewart: Would you disagree, then, with anyone who said that the efforts to highlight and deal with child sexual abuse in the Jehovah’s Witness church are engaging in apostate lies?
Jackson: I guess that’s a broad question, because sometimes those who make these accusations make many other accusations as well. But let me assure you, the person making the accusation is not the main thing. The main thing is: is there some basis to the accusation. And if there is some way that we could improve, the Governing Body is always interested in seeing how we can refine our policies. You see, Mr Stewart, could I just emphasise, as a religion, two very strong things we feel. One is, we try to keep a high moral standard. Secondly, there is love among the organisation. So we want to treat victims in a loving way.
That last response from Jackson was a typical example of his evasive tactics whenever an awkward question was put to him. Stewart’s question about apostate lies was direct and relevant, and answerable with a simple “yes” or “no.” But, knowing full well a “yes” OR “no” would be incriminating in different ways, Jackson dismissed the question itself as “broad” and spewed bluster about “many other accusations” leveled by apostates that clearly had nothing to do with the question.
Stewart wasn’t asking for Jackson to comment on his general observations about apostates, he was asking whether he believed scrutiny of child abuse within the organization by itself was tantamount to apostasy. As regards THAT specific question, no real answer was forthcoming. Jackson merely self-congratulated the Governing Body for its eagerness to refine its policies, uphold a “high moral standard,” and “treat victims in a loving way.”
Such fobbing off of an important question with pure bluster may get a politician through an awkward interview with a journalist, but Jackson was giving testimony on behalf of the Governing Body before a Judge at a Royal Commission. His sloppy tap dancing around difficult questions in such a serious forum will not have gone unnoticed, as I will highlight again later.
2. Jehovah’s Witnesses AREN’T allowed to spank their kids
02 Jackson
Like many who were raised as Witnesses I was spanked by my parents (using a belt, as I recall), and this spanking was ALWAYS justified on religious grounds using the bible and Watchtower publications.
So you can imagine my astonishment (no doubt shared by many current and former Witnesses) when Jackson repeatedly denied that Witnesses endorse corporal punishment. (Corporal punishment is defined by one dictionary as a “punishment administered by an adult (as a parent or a teacher) to the body of a child ranging in severity from a slap to a spanking.”)
The following are quotes from Watchtower publications that are at least permissive of corporal punishment, if not openly endorsing it (bold is mine)…
“Of course, children are children, and some are prone to be contrary, even wayward. (Genesis 8:21) What can parents do? ‘Foolishness is tied up with the heart of a boy; the rod of discipline is what will remove it far from him,’ says the Bible. (Proverbs 22:15) Some view this as harsh treatment that is out-of-date. Actually, the Bible is against violence and abuse of any sort. The ‘rod,’ though at times literal, represents parental authority that is administered firmly but lovingly and appropriately out of concern for the children’s eternal welfare.—Hebrews 12:7-11.” – w06 4/1 pp. 9-10
“Different children require different kinds of discipline. Some are not ‘corrected by mere words.’ For them, the occasional punishment administered for disobedience may be lifesaving. (Proverbs 17:10; 23:13, 14; 29:19) A child, though, should understand why he is being punished. ‘The rod and reproof are what give wisdom.’ (Proverbs 29:15; Job 6:24) Moreover, punishment has boundaries. ‘I shall have to chastise you to the proper degree,’ said Jehovah to his people. (Jeremiah 46:28b) The Bible in no way endorses angry whippings or severe beatings, which bruise and even injure a child.—Proverbs 16:32.” – “Family Happiness” book (1996), page 60
Certainly it must be acknowledged that some of the sentiments in more recent publications to the effect that “not all children need physical punishment” (w06 11/1 p.5) might be construed as a U-turn from past instructions on the matter, at least in part. A footnote to the 2002 Draw Close to Jehovah book even says: “Similarly, ‘the rod’ of parental authority suggests loving guidance, not harsh or brutal punishment.” (p.101)
But a specific, unequivocal condemnation of corporal punishment as archaic, outdated and abusive by Watchtower has yet to appear in print. A full printed retraction on the matter would be appropriate, especially given past guidance such as the following…
“There are times, of course, when every child needs discipline, even with the literal rod, but this should be done—and not overdone—firmly and in love, without displaying the heat of anger. Children will come to appreciate deserved chastisement, and it will not ‘exasperate’ them. They will appreciate, too, the kindness and loving care that they receive at other times.” – “Good News to Make You Happy” (1976), p166
3. The Governing Body MIGHT not be Jehovah’s only spokespersons
hotline-god
Especially since they declared themselves to be the faithful slave in 2012, the Governing Body CLEARLY believe themselves to be God’s sole spokespersons or “channel,” as stated explicitly in published statements like the following (bold is mine)…
“Even as Bible prophecy pointed forward to the Messiah, it also directs us to the close-knit body of anointed Christian Witnesses that now serve as the faithful and discreet slave. It helps us to understand the Word of God. All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the ‘greatly diversified wisdom of God’ can become known only through Jehovah’s channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave.—John 6:68.” – w94 10/1 p.8
And yet, when confronted with Angus Stewart’s blunt question “Do you see yourselves as Jehovah God’s spokespeople on earth?” the answer that came from Jackson’s lips was astounding.
“That I think would seem to be quite presumptuous to say that we are the only spokesperson that God is using. The scriptures clearly show that someone can act in harmony with God’s spirit in giving comfort and help in the congregations, but if I could just clarify a little, going back to Matthew 24, clearly, Jesus said that in the last days ‐ and Jehovah’s Witnesses believe these are the last days ‐ there would be a slave, a group of persons who would have responsibility to care for the spiritual food. So in
that respect, we view ourselves as trying to fulfill that role.”
Jackson thus answered the question by changing it, and not for the first time during his testimony. The question was NOT “do you think you are the only ones being used by God’s spirit?” The question deliberately highlighted the role of God’s “spokesperson,” or channel of communication. It had nothing to do with, say, an ordinary publisher offering comfort and help in the congregation.
Jackson’s answer was, therefore, another attempt at ducking a question where an honest answer would have made him look foolish and deluded.
4. A ‘worldly’ lawyer can beat a Governing Body member in a scripture duel
03 Jackson
One of the most delightful and unexpected exchanges between Angus Stewart and Geoffrey Jackson arose from the former’s attempts to persuade the latter that there IS a scriptural basis for discarding the two witness rule as it relates to child sex abuse. The fascinating conversation is captured in the video below…
Simply put, Stewart correctly argued that child sex abuse amounts to rape, and because according to Deuteronomy 22:23-27 a rape victim who is attacked without witnesses in a field is to STILL see her attacker brought to justice (despite apparently being the only witness to the attack), therefore the same precedent could be applied to child sex abuse.
After considerable bluster about “circumstances,” again apparently aimed at obscuring the question, Jackson conceded that one witness was sufficient for a rapist to be stoned to death.
With predatory precision, Stewart then moved in for the kill.
“Is it not the case that had Jesus been asked about a case of sexual abuse, he may have referred back to this part of Deuteronomy and said that it’s not required to have two witnesses?”
Jackson could only reply: “I certainly would like to ask Jesus that, and I can’t at the moment, I hope to in the future. But that’s a hypothetical question which, if we had an answer, then we could support what you said.”
Subsequent to this exchange, Jackson submitted a written testimony to the commission effectively backtracking on everything he’d conceded on this point. Apparently Jackson no longer wants to ask Jesus about the question in the future, because “new light” has furnished him with the answer in record time.
According to Jackson’s written explanation, the two witness rule overrides the rape provision in Deuteronomy. And in any case, the rapist described would have already had his guilt established without the woman’s testimony. Essentially, Jackson trusts that the rapist would have given a full confession to elders of raping the woman in the field, despite facing the penalty of death by stoning for doing so.
Dubious and desperate reasoning aside, history will show that Angus Stewart gifted a Governing Body member with an opportunity to biblically justify scrapping the shameful two witness rule in relation to child abuse. And instead of seizing this gilt-edged opportunity to protect children, for reasons best known to him, Jackson bent over backwards to reject it.
5. A Governing Body member fails to deny that shunning is cruel
shunning2
A long and rather arduous exchange ensued from Angus Stewart’s brave attempts to pin Geoffrey Jackson down on the issue of shunning. As I have previously pointed out, you would think if shunning is a divine command from Jehovah himself Watchtower representatives, including Governing Body members, would leap at any chance to declare their glowing pride at the policy. Instead they do their level best to misrepresent it, or deny it altogether.
Jackson pursued just such an approach, this time by again attempting to cloud the issue. Fortunately, Stewart had done his homework on the matter and refused to be sidetracked. “I have chosen my words deliberately, Mr Jackson,” said Stewart with an air of exasperation at one such attempt to switch the subject of the question from disassociated ones to inactive ones.
Finally, after a lengthy exchange involving various hypothetical scenarios, Jackson had given Stewart enough rope to hang him with.
Stewart: Mr Jackson, you have put it that they have a choice to leave or not to leave. For someone who wants to leave, perhaps because they have suffered abuse by someone in the organisation and don’t feel that it has been treated properly or adequately, it’s a very difficult choice, isn’t it, because they must choose ‐‐
Jackson: I agree, yes.
Stewart: And it can be a very cruel choice for them ‐ not so?
Jackson: I agree, it’s a difficult choice.
And so, at the end of a marathon series of questioning, finally an end product of sorts: a Governing Body member failing to deny that the “difficult choice” facing those who wish to leave the organization is a cruel one.
6. Having a Christmas tree won’t necessarily get you disfellowshipped
christmas
In the labyrinth of questions aimed at highlighting the shunning policy, Angus Stewart asked Geoffrey Jackson the following…
So, for example, if they [a Jehovah’s Witness] had become inactive or sought to fade without formally disassociating, and the elders came to visit and found them celebrating Christmas or a birthday, they would be found to be in transgression of the rules, would they not?
Jackson’s answer was remarkable…
That is not my understanding. But again, as I said, it is not my field, that goes into policy with regard to those type of things, but from my personal experience, that’s not the case.
Anybody who knows anything about the Witness faith knows that celebrating Christmas or birthdays is expressly prohibited for Witnesses – a “transgression of the rules” as Stewart carefully phrased it. In fact “celebrating false religious holidays” is clearly listed as a form of apostasy in the Shepherd book and deemed judicially actionable by elders.
As with his earlier obfuscation about corporal punishment, Jackson’s ability to contort the truth so readily rather than take pride in teachings and practices that are supposed to be mandated by God will have been a huge wake-up call for any sincere Witnesses who dared to watch.
7. The Governing Body chooses the Governing Body (not Jesus)
gb-meeting
Hopefully it is rather obvious that the Governing Body chooses itself, or is self-appointed. But according to Watchtower literature the Governing Body is “not appointed by any man. It is appointed by the same one who appointed the twelve apostles in the first century C.E., namely, Jesus Christ the Head of the true Christian congregation and the Lord and Master of the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ class.” (w71 12/15 p.758)
Interestingly, however, nowhere in his testimony did Geoffrey Jackson even try to claim that Jesus appoints the Governing Body members.
Early on in the questioning, Angus Stewart asked: “And is it the case that the Governing Body then appoints new members of the Governing Body?” This would have been the perfect opportunity for Jackson to give a rambling theological lecture to the effect that Jesus is actually the one who does the appointing.
Instead we got a straightforward: “That is correct.”
Thinking Witnesses would do well to ask themselves: If the Governing Body is self-appointed, how does it differ in any meaningful sense from the leaders of other religions? From where does the Governing Body receive its mandate to lead ‘God’s organization’ if the appointments are openly and unashamedly made by men?
8. The Governing Body are “guardians of doctrine”
guardians
Watchtower literature has always taught that the role of the faithful and discreet slave is to provide God’s people with spiritual food “at the proper time.” In 2012 the Governing Body exclusively assumed this responsibility from Matthew 24:45 – verses that many regard as a parable rather than a prophecy.
But repeatedly in his testimony Jackson made a claim that will have sounded strange to the ears of many familiar with Witness teachings, namely that the Governing Body are to be considered the “custodians,” or “guardians,” of doctrine…
◾“So the goal of the Governing Body as custodians of our doctrine is to publish literature that helps people in everyday life using what the Bible says.”
◾“But the qualifications of a member for the Governing Body ‐ it involves someone who is considered an anointed Witness, who has worked in scriptural, with a scriptural background, either as a missionary or a full‐time servant for many years, and is able to fulfil the role of the Governing Body, which is, may I state, a group, a spiritual group of men who are the guardians of our doctrine, and as guardians of the doctrine, look at things that need to be decided based on our doctrines, which are based on the constitution of the Bible.”
◾“What we view ourselves, as fellow workers with our brothers and sisters ‐ we have been given a responsibility to guard or to be guardians of doctrine.”
◾“Ultimately, as guardians of our doctrine and beliefs, yes, some central group needs to make that decision, but that doesn’t mean to say that we are just on our own unilaterally making those decisions without research and input from others.”
It is one thing to print spiritual material based on your interpretation of what is written in the bible, but why this sudden fixation with guarding doctrine? If God has passed down his requirements to humanity in clear and unambiguous form, why do these need to be guarded by a group of men? Couldn’t any group of religious leaders assume such a role for themselves? Why this sudden fixation with protecting established doctrine rather than focusing on principles of love, mercy and grace?
Hopefully I am not the only one who found Jackson’s repeated expressions along these lines rather grating and cultish.
9. The Governing Body doesn’t care about the feelings of child abuse victims
victim2
Justice McClellan entered the fray on a number of occasions during Jackson’s testimony with the seeming intent of getting Jackson to reason on a human level. A good example of this was during a line of questioning about the feelings of female sex abuse victims who are made to give evidence to a committee comprised solely of men.
“Can you understand how a woman might feel when allegations which she brings forward against a man in the congregation are considered and judged entirely by men?” asked McClellan.
Jackson’s response was astonishing.
“Obviously I’m not a woman, so I wouldn’t like to speak on their behalf, but the two of us, I am sure, could understand from what has been expressed and believe that perhaps there would be a hesitancy there.”
And so Jackson washed his hands of the need to empathize with the feelings of women by virtue of the fact that he is not a woman. Only “perhaps” might women be hesitant to bring sex abuse allegations against a man before an all-male tribunal.
Another clue that Jackson is less than preoccupied with concern for the welfare of sex abuse victims can be found in his ignorance of the earlier testimony of BCG.
When asked by BCG’s lawyer whether he’d read her client’s evidence, Jackson replied: “I haven’t, I’m sorry. The reason I came here [to Australia] was to care for my ailing father, and that has taken a lot of my time. Plus, I wasn’t aware of the fact that I would be called before the Commission.”
At first glance this may sound like a reasonable excuse, but a disparity soon emerges when you consider the multiple occasions on which Jackson referred to the previous testimony of his own Watchtower representatives – something he somehow HAD found the time to brush up on despite caring for his father (bold is mine)…
◾“But if I could mention, some of the reports that you have considered are from 25 years ago, and if I understand correctly, from what little I heard of the Commission in the last few days, Mr Spinks very accurately described that there has been more of an awareness of Jehovah’s Witnesses to make sure that any victim who has been a victim of a horrible crime is not required to actually go before three men.”
◾“If I understand your question correctly, from what I have heard from Mr Spinks’ testimony, that is not something that we require now.”
◾“Thank you for the opportunity to explain this. I think very clearly Mr Toole pointed out that if the Australian Government, in all the States, was to make mandatory reporting, it would make it so much easier for us.”
◾“Could I explain, Mr Stewart, that ‐ you see, I think already under testimony some of Jehovah’s Witnesses have explained that the two‐witnesses needed can be, in some cases, the circumstances.”
Therefore, Jackson HAD taken time out to research previous evidence in the commission. He was just very selective about whose evidence he listened to, and seemingly had a preference for brushing up on what Watchtower representatives had to say rather than child abuse victims.
Another telling moment came when BCG’s clearly-exasperated lawyer expressed her dismay at Monica Applewhite’s evidence as paid for by Watchtower, which seems to have been roundly dismissed as one-sided and non-credible by the Commission.
“It is really disheartening for the survivors that evidence from people such as Dr Applewhite, without any reference whatsoever to the victims ‘experience, suggests to them that the reason for engaging experts is… more to do with the reputation of the Jehovah’s Witnesses than any real attempt to get to a deep understanding of their experience.”
In response to what was, again, more of an appeal to his humanity, Jackson replied…
“I certainly hope that is not the case, and that certainly was not the intent of it. So please, be assured that we are interested in the individuals such as the client that you are representing. And may I take this opportunity, I don’t know your client, but please, could you convey an expression of my love and concern and reassure her that obviously she has had an opportunity to speak about how she feels, and hopefully this will help the policies and procedures to improve.”
So, not only had Jackson failed to find time to research the testimony of victims of child abuse within his organization, despite somehow finding time to listen to the testimony of Watchtower representatives Rodney Spinks and Vincent Toole. Jackson had also thrown away an opportunity to show compassion by admitting that the deployment of “expert for hire” Monica Applewhite was in poor taste from the point of view of the victims. And to add insult to injury, he was now issuing instructions to BCG’s lawyer to act as a go-between with her client.
My response, had I been on the receiving end of this request, would have been: “I take instructions from BCG – not you, Mr Jackson. I’m sure if you really care about BCG and her situation, you will find the time and means to convey that message to her yourself in person.”
10. Lots of things are not Geoffrey Jackson’s “field”
09 Jackson
As you’ve probably gathered by now, Jackson used every trick in the book during his testimony to dodge or evade questions where an honest answer would land him in hot water.
Here are a few examples of Jackson repeating the line that a certain subject was “not his field,” or trying to buy time before answering a question…
◾“I would have to check on that, because personally that’s not my field.”
◾“I preface this in the fact that it is not my field that I work with every day…”
◾“Seeing it is not my field per se, I couldn’t give an inclusive answer with regard to that…”
◾“Sorry, you would need to walk me through that a little further. I’m not quite sure.”
◾“I preface this in the fact that it is not my field that I work with every day…”
◾“I am not familiar with the statistics or the general practice…”
◾“That’s a very large question and I think it’s something that we would need to consider carefully.”
◾“That is a possibility, but in all fairness to your question, I think there are circumstances, but I couldn’t make a definitive comment on that.”
◾“You know, your Honour, this is not my field.”
◾“I can’t say that I would give a comment on that…”
On two occasions in particular, frustration over Jackson’s question-dodging antics spilled over.
The most notable of these instances was the previously-discussed exchange regarding Christmas, in which Jackson insinuated that celebrating Christmas wouldn’t necessarily result in a disfellowshipping.
“But again, as I said, it is not my field,” was his disclaimer.
“Mr Jackson,” said Angus Stewart, his frustration obvious, “you say it’s not your field, but you are a member of the Governing Body which is responsible, as you have said, for the whole field, and you have been a member for 10 years, and all the committees are responsible to and accountable to the Governing Body.”
“That is correct,” said Jackson.
“So it is your field, isn’t it?”
“Only as far as approving the basic scriptural principles. So is there a scriptural principle that you have in mind you want to ask me about, or are you talking about policies and implementation of policies? There is a difference there.”
Then, later on, it was Justice McClellan’s turn to be visibly exasperated at Jackson’s stubborn refusal to answer a straightforward question – this time regarding whether Witness women could be involved in the judiciary process even if not in the sentencing (or punishment)…
Justice McClellan: Could women be involved in the determination of whether or not the allegation is true?
Jackson: Well, your Honour, if I could say, I think they already are involved, in the sense ‐‐
Justice McClellan: Not in the decision, Mr Jackson. Please address my question.
Jackson: Okay. But yes, in ‐ well, please, could I just use an example. If an underage child says that something has happened and then two women are involved with helping that person, surely they have to decide whether or not the facts are true. They then present those to the elders. Otherwise, how would the elders know what the facts are?
Justice McClellan: Mr Jackson, you are not dealing with my question.
Jackson: I am sorry. I apologise humbly, your Honour.
Again, we are not talking about journalists or a random member of the public being overly inquisitive. We are talking about a Judge at a specially-appointed Royal Commission charged with uncovering the serious mishandling of child abuse.
Whatever Jackson may privately think of his performance, it is difficult to imagine him leaving a positive impression before the Commission. Indeed, Justice McClellan seemed to have a slight parting dig at him, saying “You are formally excused from your summons” rather than the usual, “you are excused.”
11. (Don’t laugh!) The Governing Body is good at saying sorry
sorry
Yes, apparently the Governing Body are quite accomplished when it comes to apologizing for their mistakes.
When asked by Angus Stewart whether he could foresee the Governing Body ever issuing an apology to survivors of sexual abuse at the hands of elders in the organization, this was Jackson’s response…
“The Governing Body has apologised on other matters, so for me to say ‐ I can’t speak collectively for everybody, but we have apologised on things in the past, in other areas, so it is perceivable.”
If someone could point me in the direction of where these apologies may be found, I would greatly appreciate it. To my knowledge the Governing Body has never apologized once for anything. And in rare instances where it has addressed areas of regret, it has usually found a way of apportioning the blame elsewhere – as was the case with the ‘apology’ for 1975. (w76 7/15 p.441 par.15)
12. Penguins are not found in the middle of Australia
10 Jackson
Ok, so the last one is a bit silly, but you must allow me a bit of a chuckle at Jackson’s rather random penguin comment. It seems remiss to exclude it from the list.
Early in the proceedings, when trying to establish the role and influence of the Governing Body, Angus Stewart asked Jackson whether the Governing Body takes responsibility for organizational manuals and guidelines. The odd way Jackson chose to answer the question came as a surprise.
“We do take spiritual responsibility for it, yes. May I just mention, if there is a printing mistake and we say that penguins are found in the middle of Australia, then, yes, it’s true, we take responsibility, but it’s without not within the realms of our expertise. But we would check to see who it was that had given that wrong information.”
Hopefully Jackson and his fellow dear leaders DO possess sufficient knowledge to question a printed claim that penguins live in Australia without having specific expertise in zoology. That said, given Stephen Lett’s recent claims that there is as much evidence for Christ’s kingdom as there is for “gravity, electricity, wind,” perhaps we need to lower our expectations.
And if only the Governing Body DID take prompt action whenever wrong information is printed in the publications! Mind you, they would have their work cut out fact-checking and issuing corrections for nearly 140 years of false predictions, pseudo-science, medical quackery, doctrinal flip-flops, abusive policies, misquotes, draconian rules and spurious interpretations of scripture – a daunting task if ever there was one.
Perhaps encountering a penguin in the Australian outback is more likely.
new-cedars-signature3
Further reading…
◾Australian Royal Commission hears that 1,006 alleged child sex abusers were covered up by Watchtower
◾Elders shamed under questioning by the Royal Commission
◾Reflecting on the Australian Royal Commission (Day 3, Part 1)
◾Royal Commission’s Angus Stewart accuses Watchtower representative of deliberate deception
◾JWsurvey articles on child abuse
Huge thanks go to Vincent Deporter, JWsurvey’s resident artist, for contributing artwork for this article. If you enjoy Vincent’s work, you might be interested in obtaining a copy of “Sacred Cows,” a recent picture book that takes a lighthearted look at religion.
I am in the process of working on video rebuttals to Jackson’s royal commission testimony as a five-part video series. Please subscribe to my YouTube channel for updates when these videos are uploaded.
If you still haven’t watched the footage from the Royal Commission, a playlist of videos is below…
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41 Responses to 12 things we learned from Geoffrey Jackson’s testimony at the Royal Commission
Richard E. Kelly says:
September 14, 2015 at 4:33 pm
This could be your very best, Lloyd. Kudos to you, as I suspect you had a great time putting this story and wonderful graphics together.
Reply
Jill says:
September 15, 2015 at 8:07 am
Agreed, Richard. Stellar work, and one of the most satisfying synopses to read. This deserves to go viral.
Reply
Fidhealer says:
September 14, 2015 at 5:01 pm
This was well worth the wait! Thank you for all you do Lloyd!
Reply
John Jarrett says:
September 14, 2015 at 5:06 pm
Your comment regarding the GB never having apologized for anything recalled an article I wrote on Reddit about exactly the same thing. Thought you might get a kick out of it:https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/3fjk51/counsel_regarding_apologies_thrown_back_at_the_gb/
Reply
Liette says:
September 14, 2015 at 5:36 pm
Very well writing, thank you so much all you hard work. I really enjoyed reading it.
Reply
Malachi says:
September 14, 2015 at 7:49 pm
Thanks for the masterful analysis and summary of the Royal Commissions inquiry into this.
Reply
nuaille says:
September 14, 2015 at 8:24 pm
I was waiting your article impatiently for many weeks.. and what a quality post !! You’re the best… thank you to give your times and writing talents to help jw and ex-jw awakening! Cheers Cedars! :)
Reply
JJ says:
September 14, 2015 at 9:32 pm
Along with the others who have commented, I have been waiting patiently for your article on Geoffrey Jackson’s testimony.
It was worth it and thank you very much.
He is a greasy snake, that much is for sure. The rope is only getting tighter on these BS experts and their empire is doomed to collapse around them. If only it would hurry up…
Reply
Mark says:
September 14, 2015 at 9:41 pm
Fantastic write up, mate.
Reply
minion says:
September 14, 2015 at 10:05 pm
Lloyd: Good points all around.
This really shows the deluted mentality of the 7 men from WT Corp.
Jackson: “Only as far as approving the basic scriptural principles. So is there a scriptural principal that you have in mind you want to ask me about, or are you talking about poliçies and implementation of policies? There is a difference there.
minion: ” you mean like – tighten up the chains on your prisoners, I meant members” would that be correct,?
Lloyd, who has more protection and rights – a captive member of war? Or a captive member of JWs a P-O-W – prisoner-of-WT ?
Under the Geneva Conventions its seems to me it was a POW and not a prisoner-of-WT.
The 1949 Geneva Conventions
The first Geneva Convention protects wounded and sick. These provide protection for the wounded and sick, but also for medical and religious personnel.
The second Geneva Convention protects wounded, and sick.
The third Geneva Convention applies to prisoners of war.
The conditions and places of captivity were more precisely defined, particularly with regard to the labour of prisoners of war, their financial resources, the relief they receive, and the judicial proceedings instituted against them. The Convention establishes the principle that prisoners of war shall be released and repatriated without delay after the cessation of active hostilities.
The fourth Geneva Convention affords protection to civilians.
It requires humane treatment for all persons in enemy hands, without any adverse distinction. It specifically prohibits murder, mutilation, torture, cruel, humiliating and degrading treatment, the taking of hostages and unfair trial. End of quote.
I foresee an announcement sooner than later, tv.JW will not be renewed due to lack of funds, (save face).
Peace out,
Reply
ScotWm says:
September 14, 2015 at 10:23 pm
#8. “What we view ourselves, as fellow workers with our brothers and sisters ‐ we have been given a responsibility to guard or to be guardians of doctrine.”
Guardians Of Doctrine = GOD.
We can now plainly see where the Governing Body is leading its cult members.
Reply
Kieren says:
September 14, 2015 at 10:35 pm
Hahaa ScotWm that’s awesome- the governing body and faithful slave, soon also to be known as G.O.D. Hahahaha wouldn’t have noticed that if someone hadn’t pointed it out.
Reply
Tara says:
September 15, 2015 at 6:55 am
Lol hahahahaha I never saw that until pointed out!
Reply
Kieren says:
September 14, 2015 at 10:26 pm
Very well written Lloyd. You covered it nicely.
Looking forward to you video commentary also
Reply
Honza says:
September 14, 2015 at 10:32 pm
Lloyd, very very good job!!!
I send Greetings from Czech republic!
Honza
Reply
ScotWm says:
September 14, 2015 at 11:06 pm
Lloyd:
Thank you so much for the link to the 72 page PDF document of Geoffrey Jackson’s testimony before the Royal Commission. Being able to perform a global search of this document will prove to be invaluable.
The other PDF link to Jackson’s supplementary “new light” testimony, regarding the “two witness” rule, was a good read. Jackson has shown that Governing Body members will manipulate scripture to whatever extent necessary to match their perverted doctrine.
Reply
Sheree Stokell says:
September 14, 2015 at 11:39 pm
Ha ha I would love to be a fly on the wall if unwitting jws knock on McClelland or Stewart’s door!
Aside from that, I believe Jackson, on some level, knows just how loony jw beliefs sound to outsiders. I used to dodge like this whey unbelieving family bombarded me with the same types of questions because although I was a true believer a part of me knew it sounded barmy. Yet I never questioned it! I suspect Jackson is even more delusional-cognisant. It’s difficult to explain how one knows and yet does not know.
Reply
JJ says:
September 15, 2015 at 5:10 am
Yup! I would dodge like Jackson too. You just couldn’t honestly talk about what you believed or the Watchtower practices because it was so absurd. If you make JW’s actually say what they think and do, they feel stupid.
Reply
Catalina says:
September 14, 2015 at 11:48 pm
Scotwn, Great point. Guardians Of Doctrine = GOD. I think the GB did that on purpose. Oh man they are so arrogant. It actually makes it worse if they didn’t notice Guardians Of Doctrine =GOD. They are full of themselves. They contradict their own literature. They expect JWs to stay away from these web sites and to reject the information. Pride is before a crash.
Reply
Kaput says:
September 15, 2015 at 12:35 am
Thanks Lloyd
Reply
D says:
September 15, 2015 at 3:43 am
Its funny because I was going to make a joke about the rumor that he even farted during the testimony! But you beat me to it. I like how your last point you acknowledge that you’re starting to parse over silliness and then go on to parse over silliness. Seriously, I lost my faith in Jehovah but I hope I never end up like you and your pedantic ideals. I have been reading your articles for some time and they don’t give me some new special faith in god but they do make me understand that apostates are mentally diseased. Generally, anyone who can only see things in their perspective tunnel vision usually miss the big picture. Your tunnel vision is spectacular and it can only help your inflated ego to have all the fellow back patters give you that unending supply of hot air that you need so direly. I might be an apostate too by definition but I’ll never waste as much energy in such a fruitless manner. For that reason alone, I will win.
And one other thing, the way you describe these men how could they not be divinely backed? I mean none of them really went to college, they have all been in the “borg” most of their lives, and they base their brainwashing off of an old book of “fairy tales”. Yet, you describe them as so menacing and devious to the point where they capriciously manipulate their blind followers to carry out their bidding. Truly, the way you describe these men, they are either masterminds or genuinely divinely backed
Reply
Cedars says:
September 15, 2015 at 3:58 am
I don’t think the Governing Body are deliberately devious and cynical, I believe they are purely deluded, and that their delusion feeds into their egotism. I have even made a video stating that observation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzL5bbM-Xbc
Thanks for your other comments, which tell me you have one foot still in your indoctrination. Either Jehovah’s Witnesses are true or they are not. If they are not true, then the leadership needs to be exposed because it is ruining lives and even killing people. Partially awakened anti-activists like you who evangelize their cowardly passivity are what helps keep the status quo as it is.
Reply
John Baptist says:
September 15, 2015 at 6:07 am
I absolutely saw no bitterness in your reply back but perhaps a even clearer understanding of the Actual facts. Well said.
Reply
Idontknowhatodo says:
September 15, 2015 at 7:53 am
Well said Lloyd… I wonder why people like D go on this site…I do because I need it…I am coming to life after a lifetime of lies…57 years of it…and I do not have the strength to lose my entire family and all my friends which is what would happen if I walked away..including my spouse…that is why I come on this site…to be told the truth…not just by you…whom I find to be modest and self deprecating by the way…but by people exactly in the same situation as me though in different stages of awakening…I dont appreciate the insulting tone and abusive choice of language used towards you by D… we have all had enough of that from the men at the fifferent levels of authority in this heirarchy.
Oh…and I had regular and painful smacks throughout my childhood…mostly from misbehaving at the meetings…my parents always seemed to sjow me Jehovah was displeased with me by giving me a good smacking across the legs…its amazing to find out that the GB dont agree with that.
Keep going Lloyd you and your team are amazing.
Reply
David says:
September 15, 2015 at 4:37 am
D says: “Yet, you describe them as so menacing and devious to the point where they capriciously manipulate their blind followers to carry out their bidding.”
Probably they never went to college but they still deceive people and they do it well.
You can see clearly from their leterature and behaviour that this is the case.
They champion freedom only for themselves but destroy people lives and families if for conscientiousness reason decide to leave their religion.
They know that changing a religion is a basic human right that should not result in punishment. They do not expect that for themselves.
If I do not buy the overlapping generation interpretation, am I an apostate? If I cannot teach to others things that are not true to me, why should be ostracised by my family.
No man can be gardian of doctrine. We overself are guardians of what we believe.
Jesus said that we are all the same, only him his the master.
Clearly there are no words to descrive their behaviour, that is not even Christian.
Reply
Jill says:
September 15, 2015 at 8:14 am
What will you win, exactly?
Reply
Pickled brain says:
September 15, 2015 at 8:55 am
@ D. The GB are NOT MASTERMINDs or Divinely Backed BUT as STALIN, & CHAIRMAN MAO in China proved if people are EMOTIONALLY SUFFERING & VULNERABLE as well as Oppressed then the UN-EDUCATED MASSES with a FEW WELL EDUCATED Ones Who Like the POWER & CONTROL & HERO WORSHIP over others will Follow the MOST MANIC & LUDICROUS BELIEFS!!
LOOK at the GERMAN PEOPLE & ADOLF HITLER!!
So it is not surprising that 7 MEN Can Easily Manipulate Other Human Beings which is Very, Very SAD !!
Reply
Robertperez67 says:
September 15, 2015 at 9:00 am
How is this article pedantic in any way? I don’t think anyone on this forum including the moderators see eye to eye on every opinion expressed. The common denominator amongst all of us is that we agree something has to be done. There are entire families and lives being destroyed on a daily basis by these cult leaders. There is unscriptural shunning, child abuse, brainwashing, twisting and abuse of Gods word (the worst of these) and Lloyd for one refuses to just go on with his life as if these crimes aren’t happening and destroying lives. I just spoke to a young person at a neighboring hall who has been censored by all the elders at his Spanish speaking congregation for speaking to other U.S born kids in engish. Speaking english in Spanish congregations is now punishable WTF.
All your comments make clear is that you’ve never been a JW and have absolutely no way to understand this meat grinder, which shuns children for being children and holds dephamers and pedo’s up on their shoulders. All through the 30’s and 40’s Rutherford had Jesus looking like an albino He-Man, because it was bellow Jesus to wear a beard. He enforced a no beard rule which is anti- biblical that is still enforced today. They will use Leviticus 19:28 to enforce no tattoo’s, per Gods law, but fail to ever quote verse 27 which forbids a man from even trimming his beard. This is an organization that nit picks at scripture as if playing with a great Lego set, in order to custom build a tax excempt publishing power house, cloacked as a genuine Christian religion. Luxury homes around the world, cars, trips, all the latest gadgets, the worship of millions, which belongs to God alone. All of which I could sit idly by as you do, were it not destroying millions of lives. It saddens me whenever anyone says they lost their faith in God because of their oppressive rule. I hope you can learn to read the Bible for yourself again someday without the WT goggles and begin to heal through prayer to God. I recommend reading -The Signature of God-by Grant R. Jeffrey or Mastery by Robert Greene and start finding peace in building a one on one relationship with your creator without all the fluff. I hope Lloyd continues this truly life saving work and finds solace in knowing that even if it is inadvertently happening, he is pointing many of us away from the WT machine and back towards God himself.
Reply
pearlsB4swine says:
September 15, 2015 at 4:58 am
I found Jackson’s tone to be condescending and even impatient at times, he seemed to get a little more animated when he attempted to “witness” to the commission on several occasions but it was obvious to me that he and the other WT reps that appeared were seriously unprepared for the line of questioning.
Possibly because they underestimated the intelligence of the puny human scum – much?
Reply
Cecil B. Delineated says:
September 15, 2015 at 5:01 am
Thank you for taking the time to put together this article. Please don’t let people like “D” deter you, your work is both interesting and worthwhile.
Reply
pearlsB4swine says:
September 15, 2015 at 5:07 am
Did anyone else notice how GB members both, Jackson and Sanderson, bare a remarkable resemblance to Commander Strax from Dr Who.
Reply
MimiLove says:
September 15, 2015 at 5:50 am
I also feel the article was very well written and I appreciate every article and video you do:) I sometimes have my doubts that the GB are delusional. Even though the current GB are shoved down our throats the past GB were just as arrogant and condescending. I met Knorr when I was 8 and believe me it isn’t a heart warming memory. Maybe there is a book on how to be a GB member!
Reply
John Baptist says:
September 15, 2015 at 5:55 am
I watched those proceedings and Stewart and McClellan were brilliant at exposing the Watchtower for who they really are, Liers and hypocrites . Any intelligent human being could see how delusional these men are.
Reply
roid says:
September 15, 2015 at 5:57 am
Australia does have penguins btw, just not in the interior.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fairy_penguin
Reply
Cedars says:
September 15, 2015 at 8:57 am
Interesting! Good find! :)
Reply
Ted says:
September 15, 2015 at 6:48 am
Great detailed work Lloyd, I was so absorbed in it my
breakfast went cold, had to warm it up in the micro.
Lots to comment on when it’s all digested.
( The fine articles I mean.)
Reply
ruthlee says:
September 15, 2015 at 6:55 am
well what can i add thanks Lloyd superb incite what i find so amazing about all this is that it is on record for the future to reference so reguardless of faith or belief the whole picture will become clear and i hope all future jws do the research BEFOREHAND not in retrospect it will save a lot of heartache ruthlee
Reply
anonymous says:
September 15, 2015 at 7:38 am
Thank you so much for such a great article and also I love Vincent Deporter’s cartoons!!!
Reply
anonymous says:
September 15, 2015 at 9:10 am
I printed out Geoffrey Jackson’s statement that you put up for us to read and #18 on page 4, I find especially offensive to anyone with intelligence to think it was a logical comeback for insisting on the two witness rule when Jackson is trying to use Deuteronomy 23 to 27. I would hope the Australian Commission can see what a flimsy and illogical excuse it is.
Jackson is right in that those verses are only talking about whether or not the girl that got raped, will be put to death. That is he right about. If the girl had not been engaged, then all the man had to do was pay the father of the girl 50 silver shekels and he had to marry the girl and couldn’t divorce her.
Jackson is wrong when it comes to the engaged girl though. If she screamed, the man would be put to death. The Bible doesn’t say anything about whether or not she had witnesses or not or if the man had confessed or not. If the man confessed, of course, he’d be signing his own death warrant, so what man in his right mind would confess? Of course the man would not confess but Jackson said that it would have been established that the girl had screamed and so she would be left off the hook for the sin. But it was only a sin worthy of death if she had been engaged. Jackson was making up stories when he said that the man’s guilt would have been established. The Bible makes no such claims.
If the Watchtower likes to use Deuteronomy to establish the two witness rule, then what about Exodus 21:7 where men could sell their daughters as slaves and at Ex. 21:20,21 that the owner could beat his slave man or girl and if she survived a day or two, that girl was not to be avenged because the slave was the man’s “money”? Women were only considered “money” and so if she had been raped when she had been engaged to another man, then it was the man who she was engaged to, was the one that would have exacted the death warrant for the rapist. The girl didn’t matter. Only the engaged girl’s fiance’ mattered.
If the Society were to go by the Bible, then it is okay for a man to beat his wife as long as she doesn’t die and if a man was too ugly to get a wife, all he has to do is grab her in the field and rape her. If we went by the Bible in Exodus and Deuteronomy, fathers can sell their children for sex slaves because at Ex. 21:8, he girl could be sold as a concubine.
Who in their right mind, would want to use Deuteronomy to establish the two witness rule in today’s way of thinking? Only someone who doesn’t have anything else.
Reply
Robertperez67 says:
September 15, 2015 at 10:07 am
Anonymous -you need to factor in cultural and time difference. Every culture on the planet at that time was doing similar to what the Bible states. The Bible is a book that shows the evolution of Godly men and the world they lived through. Infact outside of Christendom you can still find a good deal of those ancient practices still in full effect. You need to put the old law down, and focus on the new, where love for your God and your fellow man are foremost.
Reply
Ted says:
September 15, 2015 at 10:18 am
On the subject of discipline the org, has had plenty to say, and
using the O,Testament to do so. Yet strangely they have never
gone the full hog and recommended stoning unruly sons to death,
Deut, 21:18-21. So they do recognise that there’s a point where
a line must be drawn and reason applied.
What a cosmic difference is indicated in Jesus Parable of “The
Prodigal Son, ( there’s no need to remind anyone of the details.)
Coming on now to the 2 witness rule. Is there not room also
to let reason prevail ? The question was put to Mr, Jackson
That if Jesus was specifically asked about the application of
that rule in a case of rape. Would he not have referred to
Deut, 22, where just the testimony of the woman was enough
if she were raped in a field and no one to hear her scream?
Jackson artfully dodged answering. But as we see from the
parable. Jesus was not about rigid rules, but reasonableness
motivated by mercy and empathy. That for me answers the
question.
Reply
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KtotheRAD "Konrad" says:
August 25, 2013 at 6:55 pm
With every word they reveal and “impart” far more than they ever intended…
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george says:
August 27, 2013 at 4:45 am
Sorry Cedars, I can only access the first video on my I pad. There are a lot of over sized play icons and they won’t work.
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Luke says:
October 27, 2013 at 5:27 pm
Continue the good work on this site that expose what Watchtower Organization really are — a fanatic end-time driven cult that only serve interests of its leaders. I left this
cult three years ago for good. My only regret is that I had not left the Watchtower Cult earlier! On Easter Sunday this year, I was baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and received into Eastern Orthodox Church, apostolic Church that preserved the Faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
Cedar, you have my blessings of your work on this site that
will yet help millions of JWs to see the truth of so-called ‘Truth’.
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Fred says:
November 2, 2013 at 12:09 pm
Forget taking your numbers from a 1974 yearbook if you question the amount of those killed, interned, etc get the numbers from the Holocaust museum. You forgot to mention the ‘JEWS’ were and its quoted several times in the Watchtower publications as it is related in the bible, “ONCE GOD’S CHOSEN PEOPLE” but they did not remain that because of their actions. Your quotes from WT publications are based on the latter that they fell out of favour in God’s eyes. They therefor were NOT written in an anti-Semitic nature. Many Jews have become JW’s over the years are they lesser beings because they were of Jewish blood?…ABSOLUTELY NOT! All races are equal so this video in my opinion is twisted in its presentation. Not to mention the ridiculous claim of Rutherford’s so called love letter to Adolf Hitler. No blinders on here, I have checked the facts. Sorry but this video paints an untruthful twist of events and statements about the WT as regards the comments on the Nazi’s and Jews.
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Palma says:
February 28, 2014 at 3:48 am
Hi everybody! Hi cedars!
I found this article about a discovery in egypt that brings light to the origin of story of joseph in the bible.
What do you think?http://www.davidovits.info/the-lost-fresco-and-the-bible-my-new-book-in-french/
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Idris says:
March 27, 2014 at 8:12 am
Thank you for this page, it has been a great help to me, as I seek the truth of the word of God, however I noticed in the video ‘Does the Bible speak of ‘Paradise Earth’ the speaker quotes Luke 21v43 twice, regarding Jesus word on the cross, there should be a correction note as the verse he mentions is in Luke 23 v 43.
Keep up the good work
Reply
Julia Orwell says:
July 17, 2014 at 3:47 am
Been to internationals before and this elaborate souvenir thing is entirely new. The last one I went to in 2009, the last ones they had, had nothing like this so it’s not a matter of you having not noticed it in the past, it’s a matter of it being a new phenomenon.
I theorize that the wt motives for this involve keeping the masses busy and therefore obedient. Jws would volunteer to do this because there are no other legitimate outlets for creative expression. Armageddon being near has nothing to do with it: it’s about keeping the sheeple busy and happy. Making stupid trinkets is also a team building activity as it involves jws working together, thus reinforcing the herd mentality jws have.
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frankie fernandez says:
February 27, 2015 at 4:44 pm
dear friends I was baptized in 1974. Thank God I am no longer a member of the WT. Free at last and oh what a relief it is. A member of my former congregation who I considerd my best friend molested a minor. There was a big argument amognst the elders on the judicial committee. One elder who was a maverick, wanted to notify the police. But, instead they followed the instuctions of the society. They kept this crime against the child, hush hush. So as not to tarnish the name of Jehovah. But in reality it was a coverup to protect the wt’s reputation. Meanwhile this poor child that was raped has to carry the heavy burden of a victim for the rest of thier lives without compensation and without justice. While the abuser has remaind a member in good standing. The congregation he is attending now has not been notified that he is a sexual preditor.
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Kirtley W. Burggraf says:
March 11, 2015 at 11:16 am
Tell me, since governing body members are elected (replacing someone who dies) at what point do do they become “divinely inspired” or “spirit guided”? Were they always thus in the lower ranks or does this just “happen” the moment that they are appointed? What’s Watchtower’s take on this?
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Alone in MD says:
March 31, 2015 at 6:00 pm
Regards your video on the Memorial Service. I am one of those “non believers” married to a baptized witness. I go to just keep the peace but I’ve made it known that I consider this service one of the worst religious ceremonies that I have ever been to. “Anointed What”. Also it was announced at last years meeting that “this may be the last memorial service”. They are at it again. Thanks for the great videos.
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frankie fernandez says:
May 10, 2015 at 9:50 pm
IF CHRIST WAS ENTHRONGED IN 1914, WHY ARE THE WITNESES STILL CELEBRATING THE MEMORIAL? CHRIST SAID THAT AFTER HIS ARRIVAL NO ONE WAS TO CELEBRATE THE MEMORIAL .ALSO HE SAID THAT THE DAY OF HIS PRESENSE, IT WILL BE LIKE LIGHTNING FROM ONE POINT OF THE EARTH TO ANOTHER. LIGHTNING TRAVELS AT THE SPEED OF 3500 MILES PER SECOUND. SO IT WILL TRAVEL AROUND THE GLOBE IN LESS THAN A MINUTE. HE ALSO SAID THAT ALL EYES WILL SEE HIM. NOT LIKE THE WTS THAT SAYS WE ARE IN HIS INVISIBLE PRESENSE.
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pj wilcox says:
July 31, 2015 at 3:21 am
I watched the latest video of the inept elder being questioned by the commission. Who prepared this man for testimony? You all are aware of the dentist who shot Cecil the lion in Kenya? Well his life is over. He is in hiding. What he did ,did not break laws in Kenya and his is in a world of trouble with public sentiment. But this elder being questioned is far worse. He covered deeds that drove people to think of killing themselves. Should he not go into hiding? Is his life over? Has he know conscience? Emotion, caring? You know the answer. Bet ya, damage control is working overtime on this.
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