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Millions are oblivious to the preaching work, but “there is no need for us to be overly concerned”
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Posted on September 13, 2014
Jehovah's Witnesses preaching in New York on the 9/11 anniversary - but what about the lack of converts in the Asian and Arab world?
Jehovah’s Witnesses preaching in New York on the 9/11 anniversary – but what about the lack of converts in the Asian and Arab world?
A prominent feature of Jehovah’s Witness teachings is the solemn belief that Armageddon will strike imminently, whereupon divine forces will slaughter pretty much everyone who isn’t a Witness.
Not only is this proposition outrageous and obscene to anyone of modest intellectual capacity who is not under Watchtower’s undue influence, it also poses a problem in Watchtower theology itself. What happens to the millions of people in parts of Asia and the Arab world who will never get to hear the Witness message?
Thus far, a meaningful answer by Watchtower to this conundrum has been notable by its absence. This continues to be the case in the latest December 15th study edition where the issue is masterfully sidestepped.
“When we meditate on the meaning of Jesus’ illustration [of the leaven at Matt. 13:33], we realize that there is no need for us to be overly concerned about how the Kingdom message will reach the millions who have not yet heard it. Jehovah has everything under control. But what is our work? God’s Word answers: ‘Sow your seed in the morning and do not let your hand rest until the evening; for you do not know which will have success, whether this one or that one, or whether they will both do well.’ (Eccl. 11:6)” – Watchtower 12/15 2014 pp.9-10
In case you are wondering what Matthew 13:33 says, here it is (from the revised New World Translation)…
“He told them another illustration: “The Kingdom of the heavens is like leaven that a woman took and mixed with three large measures of flour until the whole mass was fermented.”
And so it is that, because leaven ferments in bread in a process that is “unseen,” Witnesses are to adopt an “out of sight, out of mind / it’ll be alright on the night” attitude to the fact that millions in eastern countries don’t even know what a Jehovah’s Witness is.
Watchtower is essentially saying to any Witness who dares to show concern about the potential slaughter of such ones: “stop asking impertinent questions, and get back to work!”
As this website has previously noted, either a person’s salvation is dependent on him or her responding to the preaching work, or it isn’t. If accepting the ‘good news’ IS a prerequisite, then millions will soon be struck down for the simple ‘crime’ of being born on the wrong side of the planet. If is ISN’T a prerequisite, then what is the point of the preaching work in the first place, beyond a token show of obedience?
No matter how much Watchtower may evade the problem, it isn’t going away any time soon. The map below shows (in red) all the countries where the preaching work is currently under ban (the so-called “30 other lands”)…
Jehovas_Zeugen_-_Länder_ohne_berichtete_Aktivitat
The publisher-to-population ratio for the area in red is 1:50,000 (one Jehovah’s Witness for every 50,000 people). The Witnesses aren’t even scratching the surface in a vast part of the globe spanning from the Atlantic ocean to the Korean peninsula!
And the following video, which uses data from the 2014 Yearbook, explains how the ratio is even worse in some countries where the work is not under ban. For example, you are far more likely to meet a Witness in one of the “30 other lands” than in Bangladesh, where the ratio is a staggering 1 Witness per 775,000 people.
The way Watchtower shrugs its shoulders at the fate of millions of non-Westerners is alarming enough, but the total indifference is driven home later in the magazine when the writers attempt to make Witnesses proud of their “spiritual heritage.”
“Only about 1 in every 1,000 people alive today has an accurate knowledge of the truth, and you are one of them. Should that not give all of us, no matter how we learned the truth, cause for rejoicing?” – Watchtower 12/15 2014 page 30
In other words, “don’t worry that 999 out of 1,000 are about to perish. Rejoice in the fact that you are among the special 0.1% who will survive divinely-mandated mass slaughter by obeying the Governing Body!”
For a group of men who pride themselves on “humility,” the solipsism, self-centeredness and indifference with which the Governing Body greets the obliteration of all who don’t see the world exactly as they do is something to behold.
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144 Responses to Millions are oblivious to the preaching work, but “there is no need for us to be overly concerned”
Newer Comments →
Rowland Nelken says:
September 13, 2014 at 2:25 pm
When I meet JWs on the street with their stalls; the last two times were Oxford Circus in London during August, and two weeks ago in the main shopping and ‘seaside fun’ street in Yalta, I confront them straightway with the fact they look forward to the day that God executes me.
That preempts any of their soft soap Paradise Earth twaddle. They merely smile with embarrassment and are clearly impatient for me to depart. Theocratic Ministry School has not prepared them for encounters with those of us who know the truth about their disgusting ‘TRUTH’.
I hope this approach at least sows some seeds of doubt. Any other ideas on how best to communicate with, and thus rescue, active JWs, would be most welcome.
Reply
imacountrygirl2 says:
September 13, 2014 at 2:40 pm
Isn’t one of the reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses have the only true religion because of the identifying mark of the love they show?
What hypocrites! They only love the 0.1% who will survive Armageddon, yet don’t have any love, pity or mercy left over for the rest of the world.
How arrogant and selfish to rejoice over themselves! How can they continue to believe that God’s arm is so short it can only save them?
Great post Cedars, very revealing.
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Ted says:
September 13, 2014 at 5:09 pm
Another one of the W,T’s, fabulous claims exposed, and now virtually
admitting the impossibility of preaching their dogma to “All the inhabited
earth”. Matt, 24/14 NWT.
Apart from the billions in China ( It would take over a quarter of a century
just for that population to walk past you.) and the other 29 lands where
the ratio of publishers to population make it clear that, that part of the
“Composite Sign” will not be fulfilled in “This Generation” or for many
generations to come. And then there are remote tribes in the South
American Forrest, New Guinea, India, and Africa, who have no contact
with the outside world.
Then the callous attitude, To rejoice if your one in a thousand
that’s made it to safety. Thats is not the attitude that people claiming
to be Christian should display. Jesus made it clear that even ONE
sheep was valuable in Gods eyes. Luke,15/3-7. Matt,12/12.
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JBob says:
September 13, 2014 at 5:30 pm
omg, omg, countrygirl has duplicated herself!
Cedars, may I share the content of the private email I sent to the “editor” on the subject of spirit/soul/life-force and the implied theological import which is taken for granted?
Jehovah has it under control–well, I suppose that’s why He [Taliban..] blew up the two Buddha statues in Afghanistan so these empty stone niches could “cry out” the message of salvation?
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imacountrygirl2 says:
September 13, 2014 at 6:05 pm
JBob, What can I say? imacountrygirl was already taken, and I didn’t want to call myself imacountrygirl1, which, to my simple mind, only left imacountrygirl2.
Calm yourself, I admit I may have mislead you with the 2, hence the exclamation of your one ! but, there is only 1 (one) of me.
I have existed for many years as one, strange that you are the only one who has ever said that about me. I never saw it coming.
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jay says:
September 13, 2014 at 6:51 pm
c’mon cedars, you are making a big deal of nothing. they said don’t be “overly concerned”. overly means “to an excessive degree”. Your website is going downhill fast, my friend. one poor post after another.
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Cedars says:
September 13, 2014 at 11:46 pm
Oh I see, so “overly concerned” means to an “excessive degree?” So it’s ok to be moderately concerned? Phew.
I guess that means that the answer to what God will do to the millions who don’t know what a Jehovah’s Witness is when Armageddon strikes is contained elsewhere in the paragraph. Hang on, let me check…
Nope, not there. Your point?
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imacountrygirl2 says:
September 13, 2014 at 6:58 pm
Jay, I for one, would love to see something positive and up-building about the Governing Body, The Watchtower or Jehovah’s Witnesses.
I don’t think any of us deny that there are not any sincere, honest-hearted people among Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Maybe you can locate something positive and share it with us?
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Micha-el says:
September 13, 2014 at 7:19 pm
Jay doesn’t seem to realise that the End of the World already happened for the remaining JWs back in 1975 with their Epic Failure of the Battle of Armageddon following their 50th Anniversary Celebration of the earlier Failure of 1925 which failed to see the return of any of the Ancient Worthies. This was 11 years after the earlier date of 1914 which was another failure date for the Battle of Armageddon following 40 years of preaching work by the Bible Student who recognised the return of Christ as being back in 1874 which even modern day JWs knew was true up until 1943 when they changed it. Modern Day JWs are nothing more than Apostate Bible Students who have betrayed almost everything CT Russell and his Bible Students believed in. Following the Message of the Jonestown Massacre of 1978 the whole JW Movement is Really redundant. But to WHOM can all these millions go to once they Become Wide Awake! to this Fact???
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jay says:
September 13, 2014 at 7:36 pm
Gah! No! I am fully awake and out!
But, y’all are going to push away JWs that are ready to be awakened. Sad you cant see my point!
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Rowland Nelken says:
September 13, 2014 at 9:30 pm
Slagging off another’s efforts at trying to awaken JWs may be a first step, Jay.
How do you suggest proceeding? There is a plethora of YouTube vids and blogs. JWFacts.com, AAWA, Silent Lambs, Six Screens of the Watchtower, loads of Facebook groups. Each has its own tactics; we all share the same goal; the utter transformation or, ideally, the elimination of the Watchtower.
Has any other religion or movement produced so many ex or anti groups? There is little that can be learned from history as the internet age is barely 20 years old.
Has any other malign organisation been exposed and bankrupted so recently?
Anyway, back to the main point. Jay, do you have any positive ideas? If so, please share.
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Susan says:
September 13, 2014 at 8:39 pm
I live in Canada where there is no ban and they are free to preach their slop, yet in the 13 years living here, they have come by a meager 3 times pushing literature at me with no clear message. Most people here know very little about them. Because they don’t celebrate Christmas, many think they don’t even believe in Jesus, and this is in a part of the world where preaching is supposedly done regularly. How could a God of love destroy people for not taking a magazine pushed on you by a door to door salesman?
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Brother David says:
September 13, 2014 at 9:02 pm
I still remember a talk from over 20 years ago when the speaker practically yelled: if you want the New System to come get out there and start preaching because it’s not going to come until everyone hears the Good News!
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imacountrygirl2 says:
September 13, 2014 at 9:06 pm
jay, I do see your point, as I’m sure many on here do. How do you suggest we help our brothers and sisters to awaken? I have not heard anyone come up with an answer to that.
I take no pleasure in beating a dead horse to death. I ask in all sincerity because I want to talk to my family one more time before any of our life spans run out.
What can we possibly do to wake them up jay? Anybody?
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Cedars says:
September 13, 2014 at 11:48 pm
We can start by slagging off the efforts of those who are actually waking people up. Apparently that’s what jay wants us all to do.
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Rowland Nelken says:
September 14, 2014 at 6:12 am
It seems that Jay’s slagging off mission is complete. Will we get any positive suggestions?
Certainly the former is a tad easier than the latter and putting into effect the latter and achieving success is the hardest of all.
Set the bar low, and the job is soon done. Congratulations, Jay – a winning formula! Negativity rules.
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Patrice says:
September 14, 2014 at 1:45 am
@JAY.
This website is not going downhill, it like any other information site has not caught your interest for a while. But it has caught mine. This article is very very interesting to ME. Interesting enough to pass on to others. Are you after huge headline info all the time. The point is, with this ammunition I PERSONALY can explain the ratio of “1-884 witnesses wordwide” to the next JW who calls and ask them to explain to me how the work is speeding up. John asks a very thought provoking question at the end. My question is this. If there is a god who cares, why on earth isn’t he making his presence more clear in this so called ‘time of the end’ millions now living WILL die according to his word. Or maybe not. Which one is it Jay. So you see I got a lot from the article. Why not try another website. You are allowed to uou know.
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Alan Ross says:
September 14, 2014 at 2:53 am
All interesting stuff r.e the preaching work.
An observation I have made is this , there are no go areas for J.Ws even in the U.K .
Certain areas of certain Towns are off limits .
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Cedars says:
September 14, 2014 at 2:56 am
Great observation Alan.
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Lesley Mitchell says:
September 14, 2014 at 2:56 am
“Millions now living will soon be destroyed” should now be the rallying call of all loyal and obedient Witnesses. Bit of a change to “Millions now living will never die” slogan.
However, the September 2011 Watchtower article, What is Armageddon? said only the incorrigibly wicked will be destroyed at Armageddon. If that is the case, then what is the point in Witnesses devoting so much time and energy to the publishing work? I guess they can just turn round and say they don’t know who will be saved – it’s up to Jehovah. But surely that suggests you don’t have to be a Jehovah’s Witness to survive Armageddon?
Twelve Reasons for Preaching (Kingdom Ministry June 2012, page 1, U.S. edition) said this:
1. It helps save lives.
7. It is a requirement for our own salvation.
Ah, so unless they do as the Governing Body says and devote all their time, energy and money to the preaching work, they themselves will not be saved!
Strange, but I thought Jesus said salvation depends upon belonging to Him, not to an organsiation. Also, that He said the end wouldn’t come till the gospel had been preached throughout the entire world. If we have to depend upon Jehovah’s Witnesses fulfilling the divine mandate to this extent then we will have a long wait.
It’s a good job God is in control and that all authority in heaven and on earth was given to Christ Jesus before he ascended to heaven after his resurrection (Matthew 28:18) which disproves the JW claim Jesus had to wait till 1914.
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Excelsior says:
September 14, 2014 at 3:46 am
John,
I think this was an excellent article! The utter callousness of their opinion astounds me, especially as there is a very easy out to their conundrum!
I thought that JESUS CHRIST was the one to judge humanity? Well, if he is doing the judging why worry? Would Jesus kill anyone who wasn’t wicked?
But they can’t rely on the mercy of Christ because they have no mercy themselves! Their property empire would be null and void then, wouldn’t it? No need for expensive printing facilities if we rely on the mercy of Christ! No need for prohibitive undue influence if we rely on the mercy of Christ!
Etc etc
I am an unbeliever, but surely that is the way to get through to folks who profess that Christ is their saviour?
Jay, I really fail to take your point. As has been said, there are a plethora of ex JW sites, some more geared to believers than others. If this site doesn’t do it for you, then there are plenty of other ways you can share your thoughts and opinions on the internet. Bon chance!
I love it when these knuckleheads ( thanks for the term, Mickey!) trip themselves up! My explanation solves the problem, but raises far more important ones to a property empire! They can’t say that the mercy of Christ will protect the ignorant and the innocent, because then why have their religion at all? Why have billions of dollars worth of property and other assets? Why fill in forms and present literature?
Keep up the good work, John. You are definitely on the right track.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
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Gameisover says:
September 14, 2014 at 4:57 am
Actually, they don’t even love that 0,1%. Notice the fighting, the spying,the envies, jealousies, slanders, abuses of power among themselves in the congregations!! It’s pathetic!
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Gameisover says:
September 14, 2014 at 5:08 am
Has anyone seen or even heard of so much I’ll will in any other group, church, work, school, organization, as there is in most JWs congregations? I’ve been in many all over and I haven’t.
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
September 14, 2014 at 5:14 am
Mind control.
*** km 8/96 p. 1 par. 5 No Letup in Declaring the Good News ***
Young ones also manifest zeal for the ministry. A family of Witnesses in Rwanda were put in a room where soldiers prepared to kill them. The family asked permission to pray first. This was granted, and the young daughter, Deborah, prayed out loud: “Jehovah, this week Papa and I placed five magazines. How are we going to get back to these people to teach them the truth and help them get life?” Because of her strong faith and her love for the ministry, the entire family was spared.
Does that mean that others who were killed did not have strong faith and love for the ministry?
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Gameisover says:
September 14, 2014 at 5:38 am
ILL WILL (sorry)
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Stephane Laliberte says:
September 14, 2014 at 7:22 am
I did some research about the reach of the JW.org website and it appears that only 1/6 of the witnesses and their friends actually visit the site on a monthly basis. this sounds like a major fail to me. See the small comments I wrote here. You are welcome to use this info at will. :)
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ENLIGHTENED says:
September 14, 2014 at 7:36 am
I live in Canada, have been living at this address for 27 years……….they have come to our door twice.
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Mara Jacobs-Proctor says:
September 14, 2014 at 7:38 am
I think that one of the reasons JWs accept the concept of billions of people being killed is because that huge number is so abstract. You need to bring it down to reality. For example, I have some neighbors who are a lovely little family. They have a beautiful little son named Rory. We have enjoyed watching him grow. Imagine for one second, my coming home one day to find beautiful Rory and his parents lying in the road- dead. The trauma would probably just about kill me! I can’t imagine saying,’There’s another meal for the birds to eat!’ and just stepping over them. Isn’t that what a sociopath would do? And yet this is what the GB says is going to happen after Armageddon, only times a million! Unless Jehovah plans to turn all the survivors into a bunch of sociopaths, the way the JWs interpret the scriptures in this regard is beyond the realm of possibility-especially in view of human nature. And yet the GB applies the scripture, ‘Neither will they be mourned or bewailed.’ Really? I don’t think so! I can’t imagine not caring about my neighbor’s deaths-even if I thought God killed them!
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PaxRomana says:
September 14, 2014 at 9:35 am
Hah! I remember those talks too. Maybe not said in those exact words, but certainly synonymous language.
The logical flaw that tugged at me at the time was that God doesn’t *need* any of us to fulfill his will, and numerous scriptures are clear on that point.
Can you really imagine ‘Jehovah’ thinking to himself: ‘well, I was going to start the great tribulation, but Bob failed to go out in service this morning’ …
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Biggiecuzz says:
September 14, 2014 at 11:08 am
I believe Jehovah will be fair and spare the lives of all people who didn’t have the opportunity to learn about him, Jesus, or the Kingdom message.
Armageddon is not the final judgment period of mankind.
After Armageddon will come the one thousand year reign of Christ whereby Satan and his demonic followers will be abyssed, unable to mislead mankind during that period. During this thousand year period all people will have the opportunity to learn about God and decide for themselves if God’s way is for them. The Final judgment for mankind will come after the thousand year reign of Christ has been reached and Satan is released from the abyss for a short time before finally being destroyed.
So, God will make sure that all of us will have had the opportunity to side with him or Satan before he destroys anyone.
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Cedars says:
September 14, 2014 at 11:13 am
Thanks for sharing your thoughts Biggiecuzz, and welcome to JWsurvey. So if Jehovah is going to grant a supernatural test of loyalty to millions of people just before Armageddon, irrespective of the preaching work, what is the purpose of the preaching work at all? Or is it all just a token show of obedience?
Reply
Rowland Nelken says:
September 14, 2014 at 12:04 pm
Too true Biggiecuz. As St. Augustine of Hippo calculated, in the City of God, the world is due to end in 1658, six thousand years after Man’s creation. Christipher Columbus (and he was no fool) relaised this and thus planned his trip to Jerusalem going West. The Holy City would thus be recaptured for Christ from the Infidel in time for the End. And as you know, I am sure, from that grand text, Columbus’ Book of Prophecies, Columbus’ voyages were prefigured by Isaiah who told us that the Word of the Lord would be taken to the Distant Isles. That could only have referred to Spanish Catholicism being brought to Cuba by Columbus himself! And soon, very soon, as so beautifully described in the closing chapters of the Book of Revelation, Solomon’s Temple will descend from the skies to replace the Dome of he Rock in Jerusalem and the followers of Pastor Russell will be raptured to the skies, just as St. Paul said, and the wicked will be consigned to their fiery fate. The Red Heifer project is proceeding apace; ditto the design of the loom for a seamless garment, so that the new High Priest from the Tribe of Levi, albeit converted to Christianity, will be correctly annointed and robed according to the Holy Torah after the Final Judgement. Gog, Magog and the Mahdi’s expectations, based on phoney Satanic Hadiths will be confounded and they will follow the chained Satan to the Bottomless
Pit.
You are so right, Biggiecuz; Azaael had deceived so much of humanity that they no longer attend early Mass; some women go to prayer bare headed and even Auxiliary Pioneers of Jehovah slacken on their monthly in service hours.
But, fear not, the Kingdom is at Hand. The Sixth Angel has sounded his trumpet and a New Crusade has been ordered by the Crown Prince of the Holy Roman Empire.
You and I, BiggieCuz, together with the ghost of the late Reverend Iain Paisley, will guide the Sheep through the Great Tribulation!
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Ted says:
September 14, 2014 at 12:03 pm
If god is the father of all men, why would he reveal the truth to
just a select few.? Why would he give conflicting information to
others.? Why all the different religious books.? What was so
special about C, T Russell, or J,F Rutherford.?
What father would create such confusion among his family. Each
member claiming they were given the truth and the others were
liars.? and as a result causing disharmony, hatred, and slaughter.
All religions were created by MEN and the claim of divine revelation
rests on their word only. Religions were invented to to control men
and to make money. All offering salvation for sale
Any danger to the world will not come from an Armageddon
but is more likely to come from religion it’s self.
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No longer stuck with a Jdub says:
September 14, 2014 at 12:11 pm
Brilliant response John; Just proves the ludicrous and illogical nature of most of the WT teaching. Any organization, person or entity that claims to have absolute truth or backing from a “higher power” deserves nothing but a class in critical thinking skills. Just saying “well its true because I said so” is not good enough.
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imacountrygirl2 says:
September 14, 2014 at 1:05 pm
Rowland Nelken, Was it really necessary to use such sarcasm with Biggiecuzz, who is a new person to this site?
I know we all have very divergent views when it comes to belief in God or not….and everything in between.
The least we can do on this site is to show brotherly love and respect to each other. I know how hard that can be when we have all been damaged in some degree by actions of the Governing Body. Our scars and our pain are still fresh in our minds, no matter how much time has passed.
I’ve spent a lifetime of setting conditions on love, judging everybody else and condemning them when I thought they were not worthy, being a hypocrite, being sarcastic, believing I was better than the masses of people on this earth because I had THE TRUTH.
Old habits do die hard…and I am under constant pressure to revert to my old way of life. I am still in the on-going process of my own spiritual journey, as most of us are on this site.
Now that my eyes are fully open, my goal in life is to be an example of doing unto others as I would have them do unto me. Showing love to others is my new way of life.
It is my hope that love of our fellow man is the one thing we all have in common.
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Rowland Nelken says:
September 14, 2014 at 2:08 pm
No, of course it was not necessary. These End TImes characters, however, sometimes are helped by being shown that there is nothong special, and certainly not unique about their Judgement Day fantaises. They have littered the history of the Abrahamic religions since their inception. As a JW, I imagined I had unique insight because I knew the Bible was about more than Baby Jesus and Moses in the bulrushes.
Hopefully Biggie Cuz may begin to realise that his ‘special’ ideas are but a retread of prophecies and interpretations that have been cluttering the world up for centuries.
What they have in common, of course, is that they have all been, and will all be, wrong.
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Expositor says:
September 14, 2014 at 1:08 pm
Stephane Laliberte says:
“I did some research about the reach of the JW.org website and it appears that only 1/6 of the witnesses and their friends actually visit the site on a monthly basis. this sounds like a major fail to me. See the small comments I wrote here. You are welcome to use this info at will. :)”
Stephanie,
I read your information and I was very intrigued by it! You must remember where you are posting however. First off, on JWN which is a website “operated” by barely cogent Canadians and actually run by a number of Watchtower agents and online representatives so if it isn’t written in Phonics? They aren’t going to get much out of it!
This site? Is owned by a man scared of his own shadow and of questionable stability and motives as are his primary lackeys “George (Excelsior), the grown, grown man but basement dwelling Mommas Boy” who for some reason fancies himself the opinion and source of all things and “Rowland, soon to have a Breakdown at any moment” (so be careful what you say!) all of them with the underlying platform of the Humanist/”Atheist” religion as their overall objective and agenda. So I’d say you are posting in the wrong places is all but it is a very good post otherwise! I sympathize very much and understand which is what prompted me to post this reply.
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Cedars says:
September 15, 2014 at 12:12 am
Expositor – I mostly agree with your observations about JWN, but I would be grateful if you could expound on your insults towards me. Precisely why are my “motives” in question (any more than, say, your motives)? And how am I “scared of my own shadow” if I’m doing my work without anonymity, with my real name and likeness in the public domain?
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LynnRivers says:
September 14, 2014 at 1:41 pm
Totally agree with that. That is one reason I faded away, I didn’t feel the looooove in my very clique-ish congregation
To paraphrase John : “How can they love the billions they have not seen when they do not love their brothers that they have seen?”
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LynnRivers says:
September 14, 2014 at 2:02 pm
That is, I agree with the comment of Gameisover referring to slander, jealousy, and the general lack of love WITHIN congregations (ooops, that was my first post !)
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Biggiecuzz says:
September 14, 2014 at 2:23 pm
Hello Cedars,
The purpose of the preaching work is to help one come to know of Jehovah God and his ways: how he will grant peace and righteousness to those who love him while bringing an end to all wickedness by destroying all who oppose him.
How one responds to his Kingdom message that is expressed from the Bible, (not from a JW publication) will determine whether one will make it to the other side of Armageddon.
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Cedars says:
September 14, 2014 at 2:26 pm
I don’t think you understood my question. Never mind.
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Rowland Nelken says:
September 14, 2014 at 2:35 pm
Surely the words ‘Peace and Righteousness’ can have little or no connection with an organisation that has caused countless needless deaths through its blood policy, split families through shunning and protection of paedophiles through its 2 witness rule. That is quite apart from the nightmares caused through terror of the prospect of imminent Armageddon inspired by the series of duff prophecies which are the JWs’ principal hallmark.
An organisation like the JWs , with its appalling track record, is in no position to preach to anyone about peace and righteousness.
Have you read Cedar’s challenge, BiggieCuzz?
Can you provide any evidence to show that the Watchtower Society was selected by Jesus as his exclusive earthly organisation back in 1918 when its theology was markedly different from that of today?
Unless you can provide evidence of the divine appointment of the Watchtwer Governing Body, there is no reason for anyone to take seriously anything at all that you might be preaching, BiggieCuzz.
In my rather flippant last post I reminded you that imminent Doomsday, Apocalypse preachers have littered the history of the Abrahamic religions. They have all bee wrong. JWs are simply A N Other.
Please specify why JWs are so special and why anyone should take their preaching seriously.
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abc says:
September 14, 2014 at 2:31 pm
test
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Ted says:
September 14, 2014 at 2:31 pm
Biggiecuzz
Hi. You say, you “Believe” Jehovah will be fair and spare the lives
of those people who didn’t have the opportunity to learn about him”.
Are you privy to Jehovahs private thoughts ? which would amount to
divine inspiration. Are you starting a new religion.? You quote part of
J,W, doctrine and then depart from it by interpolating your own thoughts.
The W,T, has asserted, times without number, that the only survivors will be
those allied to their Org, the symbolic Ark.
Speaking of Jehovahs “Fairness” Is it fair that all mankind is condemned
to death because of someone else’s fault ( the horrendous crime of,
stealing an apple, or something) It’s against all principles of justice, not
to mention being un believable.
Was Jehovah Fair when he ordered Joshua to annihilate whole populations
Including infants, who were unable to make any decisions for, or against
Jehovah.
I fully respect your right to believe how you will. But for me the Bible is just
another man made book full of fantastic fables. I cannot give it any credence
and that applies to the God Jehovah.
Best wishes to you.
Reply
xyz says:
September 14, 2014 at 2:35 pm
Hi all,
The global witnessing work will be done not by door to door salesperson like manner employed be the JWs.
It will be accomplished by the sons of the kingdom before the governors and kings and the international news broadcast, as the wild beast worship will be imposed upon entire world.
Mr 13:9-13
9 “As for YOU, look out for yourselves; people will deliver YOU up to local courts, and YOU will be beaten in synagogues and be put on the stand before governors and kings for my sake, for a witness to them. 10 Also, in all the nations the good news has to be preached first. 11 But when they are leading YOU along to deliver YOU up, do not be anxious beforehand about what to speak; but whatever is given YOU in that hour, speak this, for YOU are not the ones speaking, but the holy spirit is.
The WTS’ preaching work has nothing to do with the true kingdom preaching work by the sons of the kingdom.
Reply
Biggiecuzz says:
September 14, 2014 at 3:29 pm
Ted,
No, I am certainly not privy to Jehovah’s private thoughts, that is why I said that I BELIEVE that He would not destroy a person who didn’t know of him.
I don’t go along with everything taught by JW’s and I will express my thoughts even if they are in oppostion to what they teach. That is what eventually got me DF’ed.
Reply
Ted says:
September 14, 2014 at 4:05 pm
Biggiecuzz
Thanks for your reply I appreciate it. If I had known from what position
You were coming from ( A Witness, or an ex witness, ) I would have
phrased some of my thoughts differently.
Best Wishes To You
Reply
Ted says:
September 14, 2014 at 5:07 pm
Expositor
You seemed to use your post as an opportunity to indulge in
name calling and character assassination. A sure way to
lose your audience and your argument.
Reply
imacountrygirl2 says:
September 14, 2014 at 6:34 pm
To Expositor, You can never build yourself up by tearing someone else down.
Reply
Expositor says:
September 14, 2014 at 6:55 pm
“I meant what I said and I said what I meant… an elephant’s faithful-one hundred percent” ~ Dr. Suess, from the classic ~ Horton Hatches the Egg!
It either is or it is not! Facts as well as Truth is non- negotiable.
Reply
imacountrygirl2 says:
September 14, 2014 at 8:25 pm
Expositor, I agree with your statement: “Facts as well as Truth is non- negotiable.”
What proof do you have that anything you claimed is true?
That John Cedars is “a man scared of his own shadow and of questionable stability and motives”?
That “George (Excelsior), the grown, grown man but basement dwelling Mommas Boy” who for some reason fancies himself the opinion and source of all things” is a “primary lackey” of John Cedars?
That “Rowland, soon to have a Breakdown at any moment” is a “primary lackey” of John Cedars?
That your statement that “all of them with the underlying platform of the Humanist/”Atheist” religion as their overall objective and agenda” is based on anything other than your own imagination?
You said “It either is or it is not!” I believe we are all capable of discerning for ourselves whether what you claim is or is not true.
Tearing them down in this manner is never going to build you up.
Reply
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← Bible-shaped baptism pools take center stage at the South Korea international convention
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Millions are oblivious to the preaching work, but “there is no need for us to be overly concerned”
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Posted on September 13, 2014
Jehovah's Witnesses preaching in New York on the 9/11 anniversary - but what about the lack of converts in the Asian and Arab world?
Jehovah’s Witnesses preaching in New York on the 9/11 anniversary – but what about the lack of converts in the Asian and Arab world?
A prominent feature of Jehovah’s Witness teachings is the solemn belief that Armageddon will strike imminently, whereupon divine forces will slaughter pretty much everyone who isn’t a Witness.
Not only is this proposition outrageous and obscene to anyone of modest intellectual capacity who is not under Watchtower’s undue influence, it also poses a problem in Watchtower theology itself. What happens to the millions of people in parts of Asia and the Arab world who will never get to hear the Witness message?
Thus far, a meaningful answer by Watchtower to this conundrum has been notable by its absence. This continues to be the case in the latest December 15th study edition where the issue is masterfully sidestepped.
“When we meditate on the meaning of Jesus’ illustration [of the leaven at Matt. 13:33], we realize that there is no need for us to be overly concerned about how the Kingdom message will reach the millions who have not yet heard it. Jehovah has everything under control. But what is our work? God’s Word answers: ‘Sow your seed in the morning and do not let your hand rest until the evening; for you do not know which will have success, whether this one or that one, or whether they will both do well.’ (Eccl. 11:6)” – Watchtower 12/15 2014 pp.9-10
In case you are wondering what Matthew 13:33 says, here it is (from the revised New World Translation)…
“He told them another illustration: “The Kingdom of the heavens is like leaven that a woman took and mixed with three large measures of flour until the whole mass was fermented.”
And so it is that, because leaven ferments in bread in a process that is “unseen,” Witnesses are to adopt an “out of sight, out of mind / it’ll be alright on the night” attitude to the fact that millions in eastern countries don’t even know what a Jehovah’s Witness is.
Watchtower is essentially saying to any Witness who dares to show concern about the potential slaughter of such ones: “stop asking impertinent questions, and get back to work!”
As this website has previously noted, either a person’s salvation is dependent on him or her responding to the preaching work, or it isn’t. If accepting the ‘good news’ IS a prerequisite, then millions will soon be struck down for the simple ‘crime’ of being born on the wrong side of the planet. If is ISN’T a prerequisite, then what is the point of the preaching work in the first place, beyond a token show of obedience?
No matter how much Watchtower may evade the problem, it isn’t going away any time soon. The map below shows (in red) all the countries where the preaching work is currently under ban (the so-called “30 other lands”)…
Jehovas_Zeugen_-_Länder_ohne_berichtete_Aktivitat
The publisher-to-population ratio for the area in red is 1:50,000 (one Jehovah’s Witness for every 50,000 people). The Witnesses aren’t even scratching the surface in a vast part of the globe spanning from the Atlantic ocean to the Korean peninsula!
And the following video, which uses data from the 2014 Yearbook, explains how the ratio is even worse in some countries where the work is not under ban. For example, you are far more likely to meet a Witness in one of the “30 other lands” than in Bangladesh, where the ratio is a staggering 1 Witness per 775,000 people.
The way Watchtower shrugs its shoulders at the fate of millions of non-Westerners is alarming enough, but the total indifference is driven home later in the magazine when the writers attempt to make Witnesses proud of their “spiritual heritage.”
“Only about 1 in every 1,000 people alive today has an accurate knowledge of the truth, and you are one of them. Should that not give all of us, no matter how we learned the truth, cause for rejoicing?” – Watchtower 12/15 2014 page 30
In other words, “don’t worry that 999 out of 1,000 are about to perish. Rejoice in the fact that you are among the special 0.1% who will survive divinely-mandated mass slaughter by obeying the Governing Body!”
For a group of men who pride themselves on “humility,” the solipsism, self-centeredness and indifference with which the Governing Body greets the obliteration of all who don’t see the world exactly as they do is something to behold.
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← Bible-shaped baptism pools take center stage at the South Korea international convention
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144 Responses to Millions are oblivious to the preaching work, but “there is no need for us to be overly concerned”
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sally says:
September 15, 2014 at 12:45 am
Wow! With the Jehovah’s Witnesses increasing at an alarming rate, I had no idea about the state of affairs in other countries! I have found it appalling, to come across Jehovah’s Witnesses who are absolutely gleeful, telling us we shall be destroyed and they can’t wait! Today it seemed a foreign concept to one Jehovah’s Witness, that Jehovah does not wish for any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. I well remember stressing this while going door to door, striving so hard to reach people, (how glad I am now that I brought no one into this org). Why has this now become such a foreign concept to them? They actually act and seem to think as though God can’t wait to destroy billions! What is going on over there in wt land?
Reply
sally says:
September 15, 2014 at 12:50 am
Rowland, I often point out that although salvation is by means of Faith in Jesus Christ, this is NOT what the watchtower teaches. Some are genuinely shocked, and have called me a liar. I post watchtower quotes to show them, the wt says salvation is by means of THEM, the org, then I show them Acts 4:12. Sometimes I ask them who their mediator is, they insist it is Jesus, I show them wt quotes, then this scripture. It seems to be shocking many Jehovah’s Witnesses, who apparently are not that well versed in watchtower theology. 1 Tim 2:5
Reply
Rowland Nelken says:
September 15, 2014 at 12:59 am
That sounds great, Sally. Although I have no faith in Jesus, it may well be that a first step in awakening a JW may be pointing out how JW theology is utterly unbiblical.
Were I to come clean straightway and declare that the Bible is a man made collection of writings of dubious provenance and, in parts, quite hideous morality, ears would be closed straightway.
Reply
sally says:
September 15, 2014 at 12:52 am
The arguments I’ve used have had a measure of success,Rowland, and I’ve posted them as Questions for Jehovah’s Witnesses, hope its okay to share my blog for this purpose John Cedar,,,sallypeterson1914@blogspot.com
I sincerely hope you find it beneficial.
Reply
sally says:
September 15, 2014 at 1:02 am
There is a question that is being presented to Jehovah’s Witnesses, this by means of spirit. The question is, *If* it could be shown to you that what the Word of God teaches is different than what the watchtower teaches, whom will you obey? To Whom do you belong? Who do you Really worship God or the Watchtower. Scriptures are posted, along with wt quotes showing the contrary teachings, about 1, salvation, and 2, the Deity of Jesus, recently about who is your mediator? This is all written out as questions for Jehovah’s Witnesses on my blog. I hope you find it helpful. sallypeterson1914@blogspot.com
Reply
anonymous says:
September 15, 2014 at 2:00 am
In order to get through Armageddon, all of us know that Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that unless you are one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in good standing at Armageddon, you will be destroyed as one of the wicked right?
In Ray Franz’s book Crisis of Conscience, he pointed out that there are over 1,000 rules that the Governing Body has come up with for Jehovah’s Witnesses over the years. That was in around 1983 and there are probably several hundred more than that now that if printed out from the Questions to Readers, would fill quite a large book to read. Those rules still stand today. If someone wanted to go through the work to make a book with a print out of all those Questions to readers over the past 50 years and put it on the market, I bet it would sell. People would sit up and take notice and word would hopefully spread.
When one signs a legal contract, it usually has a lot of pages to read and who reads all of it? People just take the word of the one presenting the contract that they wouldn’t be out to cheat them and sign it, without reading it over. That is the same with the Watchtower. They present those questions in the Organized book and if the one getting baptized can answer those questions, that person qualifies for baptism. It doesn’t matter if that person is 8 or 80. The person getting baptized trusts the elders going over the questions that the Watchtower wouldn’t cheat them and so they answer the questions and get baptized and then it’s afterward they are faced with the more than 1,000 rules. Do any of you remember how you can’t say GOLLY, GOSH, GEE OR GOOD LUCK OR EVEN DON’T WORK TOO HARD? We were introduced to those 1,000 rules gradually. If we were faced with those over 1,000 rules all at once, how many of us would have been shocked to think that is what we were signing up for.
I tried talking to two of my elders about Malawi, 607, Russel’s grave stone, The Finished Mystery, joining the U.N. and on and on and it went right over their heads. I went on for 2 hours and they didn’t grasp a thing I was trying to tell them. I tried telling them about things in the Reasoning book that aren’t backed up with Scripture. I told them that I can prove from our own literature that Jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587. Nothing sank in. I tried telling them that they needed to prove that God chose the Watchtower in 1919 and they said they didn’t need to prove it because they knew it was the truth. They said that we are the only ones preaching and all other religions were false. They said it’s by our “fruits” you can tell. They said “who else can you go to?” No matter what I said, they had an answer. So many others are the same. Their heads just can’t let it sink in because the Watchtower has done such a good job of brainwashing those people that you’d have to put them in a room where they couldn’t escape and show them for days before it could sink in.
I have been racking my brain for months, trying to think of anything that would sink into those rock hard brains and the only thing I can come up with would be a book of the questions to readers with those 1,000 rules. Can that be done with all the copyright laws? I would sure like to see somebody do that. After all, when one signs a legal contract, that is what you have to do, supposedly read all the rules FIRST BEFORE SIGNING. I see young ones getting all excited and get baptized and then it’s not 10 years later, they are gone. I never knew why. I always thought it was because they “sinned” or something. Now I am thinking, it probably was because they weren’t aware just how much of a “straight jacket” this religion is when they were young and took the dip out of ignorance.
The Title of the book could be “The more than 1,000 rules one must follow if you are to make it through Armageddon and Jehovah’s Witnesses are the only ones following those more than 1,000 rules”.
Reply
Gareth says:
September 15, 2014 at 6:04 am
Interesting, why do you think such a book/list of 1000 rules will wake them up? Especially just a collection of Questions from Readers will not work I’m afraid. A lot of those are about Biblical questions too, like the one about Rachel now. ‘How should such and such be understood?’ … not really a rule. A lot of these rules would be the judicial committee related rules, right? I guess most of the JWs won’t know them, and therefore dismiss them as “I don’t trust you” or “I don’t think they would handle it like that” or “They are imperfect men” or “These rules allow the organisation to operate smoothly” or “These rules are guidelines for our protection” or “They mean well with these rules” etc etc etc. But feel free to try to make a comprehensive list that any JW could agree with; perhaps some will start thinking. Let me give two:
1) Men cannot wear beards
2) Women cannot wear pant suits, even in field service (especially in winter time would be practical).
Good luck! :-)
Reply
Lesley Mitchell says:
September 15, 2014 at 2:15 am
Dear xyz, I agree with you that it is God, through the power of the Holy Spirit, who uses people who belong to Christ Jesus to witness about Him. Jesus promised the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and it is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in those who belong to Him that inspires born-again Christians to endure persecution and even death, a living testimony to their transformed lives, lives that are dedicated to serving Him.
But 99.9% of all Witnesses are NOT born again, and they do not have the “anointing” or indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The latest Yearbook statistics indicate that a mere 13,204 Jehovah’s Witnesses claim to be “anointed” and the rest don’t even think they need to be born again! Yet Jesus said no person would ever see the Kingdom of God, let alone be part of it, unless they were born again. How, then, can Jehovah’s Witnesses claim to be “the sons of the kingdom” when they have been excluded from it? They are not in the New Covenant, Christ Jesus is not their mediator and therefore they will die in their sins. That’s what Jesus said, and I believe Jesus. Please read John 3:1-8 and 1 John 5:1-18.
Please be aware that hundreds of thousands of Christians throughout the world are even now suffering persecution, torture and death for the sake of Christ Jesus – and I’m not talking about Jehovah’s Witnesses. I’m talking about people who belong to Christ Jesus and who have been born again and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, people whose lives have been transformed and who bear the fruit of the Spirit as evidence. They are condescendingly viewed by Jehovah’s Witnesses as being part of Christendom, what you call “false religion” soon to be destroyed at Armageddon. Who are the Witnesses to judge other people?
If “the WTS preaching work has nothing to do with the true kingdom preaching work by the sons of the kingdom” then why did Witnesses devote 1,841,180,235 hours last year to the preaching work? My parents became Witnesses in the late 1930’s. I left the organisation after 1975.
Reply
zeebo says:
September 15, 2014 at 2:45 am
Slightly off topic but the dreaded WT org gets a mention int he novel Metro 2033.. so funny the only mistake was the use of a beard and the fact it wasnt cultic enough..
Reply
John Baptist says:
September 15, 2014 at 5:52 am
So is there some new light on Matt. 24:14 now?
Isn’t this contrary to the teachings of what the bible says?
If this is Gods channel of communication then why is God changing even his own written word?
Doesn’t God himself say to stop judging so that you yourselves may not be judged?
Hasn’t this religion used a name (Jehovah) that originated with the merging of two names that originated with a Catholic Spanish Monk in the 12th Century?
Can any active JW answer those questions objectively and reasonably?
Please enlighten me!!
Reply
anonymous says:
September 15, 2014 at 6:24 am
Hi Gareth. I am thinking if there was a book like that, say being sold in stores and it took off, it would be by people who are curious about the JW religion and if it got popular and a lot of attention might be drawn to it, that prospective converts might think twice about taking a Bible study.
When I was first baptized, I had no idea of all the rules until I’d say something like “good luck” or “don’t work so hard” or “golly” or “gee” and somebody would tell me that I wasn’t supposed to say that.
There are so many articles telling why we can’t get piercings and what we can and can’t wear and what we can and can’t say and what we can and can’t do etc. There are a lot of definite rules that we just learned gradually as time went along. I am just saying that if all these “rules” were printed out page by page from the Society’s questions to the readers, it would fill a very large book. There are a lot of insinuations too like if you go to college, you aren’t spiritual and are materialistic.
If you sign a contract for a business deal, it would pale in comparison as to the “rules” that we have to follow if we want to fit in and not be having somebody look at us cross-eyed every time we said or did something out of line.
Do you think it’s a crazy idea? I think it’s for those yet to get interested. I am hoping for a young person who is motivated.
Reply
anonymous says:
September 15, 2014 at 7:00 am
adding to my last comment if there’s anybody who is motivated to write a book about all the rules JW’s have to follow if they want to live through Armageddon…
I remember an elder giving a talk in our congregation one time, that women weren’t to wear shoes that went flip, flop to the meetings because when they got up to go to the bathroom, everyone could hear the flip flop of their shoes hitting their feet and it was distracting. How about being late to meetings? How about how women aren’t to wear blouses to the meetings, because if the one handling the mics can see down her shirt, it was making it hard for him to not commit fornication? How about all the flip flops in doctrine like how those killed at Sodom and Gomorrah were going to be killed permanently and then not killed permanently and then then killed again permanently and how about the flip flops on blood? How about the flip flops on bedroom laws?
Who realizes when they get baptized, that they aren’t supposed to go to school reunions because if the kids can’t go to school dances, then the parents can’t to to school reunions because of “worldly” associations. How about you can’t have a job like a policeman or night guard because you can’t wear a gun? How about you can’t work for a church? How about you can sell cigarettes if you work for somebody else but you can’t own a store and sell them? How about the one where it wasn’t proper for married people to show affection in public because it would make unmarried people feel left out? How about where a married man could dance with young girls, not his daughters or other married woman, but first he had to get permission from the “head” of that other house but no where does it say in that question to the readers that it was any of the wife’s business if her husband danced with other young girls or other married women? How about if rape is fornication? How about having to have chaperones? How about what is not allowed to say so as to get yourself in trouble like arguing about something the Watchtower says that contradicts proven history or contradicts the Bible and how it can get you thrown out by saying such things because it might be construed as apostasy?
If a person were to go back to say, 1950, can you imagine how big that book would be? That is the open-ended contract we were signing up for when we got baptized but didn’t know it then. The list was long 30 or 40 years ago but that contract keeps getting bigger and bigger.
It is so misleading, when the Watchtower implies that all a person has to do is become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses to make it through Armageddon. According to the very real and undisclosed Watchtower contract that is presented to potential converts, it’s a very complicated and a very narrow and difficult road to follow that is slowly disclosed AFTER baptism and that is the real contract they have to follow to make it through Armageddon.
If a person had a book like that in their hands when the next witness comes to their door and showed it to that JW standing at their door, I think that Witness would want to read it too. The householder could say to the Witness as he or she is holding that book up and showing it to the witness standing at their door “this is questions to the readers from the past 65 years, straight from your own literature and I will bet you anything, you aren’t even aware of most of them because if you were, you’d think twice about the religion you are so proud of.”
Reply
Gareth says:
September 15, 2014 at 2:43 pm
About the flip-flop shoes, I would actually agree the tapping could be very distracting. Most sisters I knew wearing (high) heels walk “tippy-toe” to avoid making noise on tiled floors. No one told them to do so as far as I know, it’s just the social thing to do. Anyway, a public talk about it seems excessive.
As far as writing the book goes (I’d recommend a webpage though), it seems to me you have enough valid points and also more than enough energy for it 😉
Reply
Joseph Zarola says:
September 15, 2014 at 1:05 pm
I was a member of the WTBTS for 40 years, then left and found peace.
Joseph Zarola; The real “obliviousness” here, is the failure of all jehovah’s witnesses to recognize the persecution of Christians in the earth, for their efforts to educate, and bring the name of Jesus to the world. Over 125 thousand Christians are martyred each year in the most horrific ways, for daring to claim their belief in, worship of, and love of Jesus Christ.
Then there are the “Ex-Witnesses”, tirelessly exposing and revealing the hidden world of the most devious and misled peoples on the earth, jehovah’s witnesses. At the risk of losing everything from family, to homes, businesses, marriages and their lives, these men and women do not have any boundaries that stop their work, of re-directing the enslaved members of this cult, to a sobering realization of the degree to which they have been lied to and controlled.
Real Christian freedom is not measured by numbers or percentages, it is measured by the love of God that is extended to the captives of any group or institution, or organization that hides the Kingdom of God, in favor of creating a temporarily secure but benign form of worship.
The preaching method, and message given to the present-day jehovah’s witnesses is one of apathetic dis-involvement, that lulls the minds and hearts of their members into allowing death to become commonplace and expected, when the Bible clearly shows us that God knows when even a sparrow has fallen.
May we all continue to seek out those inside this organization, who truly love their fellow man and child, to the extent that their leader Jesus would go anywhere to find His lost sheep…anywhere.
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Lesley Mitchell says:
November 20, 2014 at 2:25 am
I was brought up from birth into this denomination but left in the 1970’s. You make a valid point about thousands of Christians being persecuted every year – and they are NOT Jehovah’s Witnesses. Real Christian freedom comes when people realise that salvation does not come from belonging to an organisation, or striving to do good works in order to “earn the right” to be saved.
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anonymous says:
September 15, 2014 at 4:01 pm
I am close to 70 now and I am hoping for somebody younger with more energy. Another thing that would be great to put in a book like that would to add some of the stuff in it like what’s in the “secret” elder’s book. Wouldn’t that be a hoot though? Even if nobody does it, I think if any Watchtower trolls are watching here, maybe it might put a scare into them if somebody actually goes ahead and does it.
I think talking about flip flops because of the noise they make, I do think is anal. Who can live up to all these silly man-made rules? We had a talk in our hall, not long ago that we can have a clean house from the outside but what about our sinks and toilets?
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Warren says:
September 15, 2014 at 8:39 pm
Rules, i have had a beard, goatee now for over 12 months, they now leave me alone, but no priveledges, its quite silly, i am allowed to do hall cleaning though, even if they call that a priveledge, my mother has noticed my slip, i reminded her the other day that she has lived her life since 1975 that armagedon would be here tommorow, well guess what 2015 is going to be 40 years, maybe that should be the 2015 theme text, 40 years & still waiting. My 2 teenagers are not baptised, people ask why not, i just reply with the question, “How old was Jesus?” thats a rule get em in young & early to trap them, or the other one is, you can’t marry unless you are baptised, another trap, baptise for the wrong reasons, it doesnt work, we have just had a fatherless boy disfellowshipped, he got zero help, they just wanted him baptised & when he went haywire they through him out, ive told his mother not to abandon him, this all makes me very sick & angry.
More rules, you must be baptised to make it through, show me in the bible where it says that, or if you don;t preach you will die as well, again where in the bible does it say that. They have alwys promoted 1914 & this generation, & that the good news will be preached & then the end, 100 years & now almost 101, so much for the dim wites who said this is it, we just remind them that if they think its going to happen at the international convention, then what about other countries having different dates, mmmm maybe it will be staggared. to many flaws my friends, the banning of religion, what about muslems, how could you ban that, it would create a world war.
Cedars you still need to answer my question regarding all the money they are making & where is it going?
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Cedars says:
September 16, 2014 at 1:24 am
I’m not sure I appreciate being summoned to give an answer to an off-topic question.
The simple answer is – I don’t know how much money Watchtower is making or what they are spending it all on because I am not privy to their balance sheet.
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sally says:
September 15, 2014 at 8:42 pm
It is quite shocking to discover, in speaking with Jehovah’s Witnesses today, that they are so unaware of some very basic teachings of the Watchtower. For example, the ones I’ve spoken to have no idea the watchtower does NOT teach that salvation is by means of Faith in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. They insist that is what the watchtower teaches, when I post quotes, showing them the organization says we MUST be a part of the organization in order to be saved, they flat out deny this, I’ve even been called a liar. Also, they do not seem to know that according to the Watchtower, Jesus is the mediator only for their so-called 144,000, they firmly believe He is their mediator as well. Of course this is true according to scripture, but Not according to what the Watchtower teaches. If witnesses today don’t even know or believe This, how do you think they’d respond if you showed them the thousands of rules the watchtower says they must obey? Even when providing the direct watchtower quote, they refuse to believe it! (I tell them to check on jw.org, and ask their elders) They flat out refuse to believe that the watchtower says what it does. So sad.
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Warren says:
September 15, 2014 at 9:16 pm
Sally, any JW knows that if you start asking questions you are frowned upon, we are to believe everything blindly, thats why they quickly mark people as apostates, & from former knowledge that quickly can escalate to dis-fellowshiping, but i agree they need to no the truth, for many years i blindly beleived it, i even served as an elder for 9 years, but as the years have rolled on i have been having a lot of doudts, also the rule thing, so many man rules, they said to me that the reason i don;t have priveledges was due to my beard, it was a theocratic descision, well the CO overturned that, & i said to them its not theocratic its menocratic, the mens club, as the years continue to roll on i cannot even begin to imagine the lies that will be told to keep em faithfull, i cant wait for the backflip on 607 & 1914, just like the generation flip flop, If everything is true, then it paints God as cruel, because people who have been waiting for years for nothing & it paint Jesus as a liar, i didnt really mean this generation, i meant these generations, sorry,
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imacountrygirl2 says:
September 15, 2014 at 10:53 pm
“you still need to answer my question regarding all the money they are making & where is it going?”
Warren, that is the $64 million dollar question. The GB is so slick and has so many different names they hide accounts under, I haven’t came across anyone who can answer that question.
I tried to find their tax form for a non-profit on line, which I believe has to be filed publicly ever year. Wait, churches may be exempt from public filing. They have such a maze of names, I finally gave up.
I believe that is their most highly protected information ever. It’s seems pretty obvious they are not gong to be forth coming with that top secret information.
I wonder if they have to give that information to the members when they have their annual business meeting? Too bad I don’t know any of them.
If you find out, please share it on here, there are probably others who might like to know their financial information.
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anonymous says:
September 16, 2014 at 2:17 am
Sally, I know what you are saying and it’s true. I tried talking to 2 of our elders and showed the things I had seen right out of our own literature and it all went right over their heads and they went away thinking I had been lost to Satan.
On the jw org web site now, they threaten that if you use anything off that web site now and re-post it somewhere else that they can block you for copyright laws. What about if you photocopy articles and paragraphs from old Watchtower magazines? Is that against copyright laws too? Maybe if it’s against the law, a writer could just paraphrase it instead but put the place where it was found. I know that the rank and file wouldn’t believe it though if it was paraphrased and if they don’t have the Watchtower publication in their hand, they would think it was made up but what about the public? Maybe word could spread so that when a Witness went to the doors, the doors would be closed and nobody would listen to them anymore? That is my hope.
I was thinking that the title of a book like that could be something like “The Secrets behind the Watchtower that Jehovah’s Witnesses aren’t allowed to know”. That seems intriguing to me and the idea may appeal to “worldly” people and if enough attention was brought to it, that a lot of people would buy it and word would spread until the Witnesses would be forced to see it for themselves, even if under cover of darkness. That is what I first did when I was finding out the truth behind the truth myself. My hands were shaking when I first went on JW facts and JW survey and I had to do it when my family were no where around. That is how scared I was and I am sure that is how the rest are also. But once I started seeing the cover ups and lies, I wasn’t scared at all anymore and the madder I got and less afraid.
I think if somebody knew a publisher and shot that idea across to them that they might want to see a book published like that, especially when the publisher realizes just how much we have been purposely kept in the dark about our own religion. If somebody is already disfellowshipped and put their name to it, they could make a bundle off of it. What a payback, right?
I have Watchtower volumes going back to 1965 and if anybody had them going back to 1950, there would be enough to fill a pretty large and interesting book, especially to rank and file Witnesses who have no idea what they have signed up for. I think if a book like that hit the best sellers list, it could spell the end of the Watchtower.
I have Kingdom Ministries going back maybe 20 years though and a lot of rules are in them too.
It’s the newer ones that the Watchtower is hoping to keep in the dark now. The older ones like me are aware of a lot of rules that we have been seeing over the years but the newer ones have no idea what are still rules or not.
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Excelsior says:
September 16, 2014 at 10:17 am
Hello folks,
Your Cedars worshipping Momma’s Boy here,
Oh dear! How very childish!
I would have been embarrassed to write comments like that myself, but it takes all sorts to make this wonderful world.
As you know, I am an atheist and I do not believe that Jesus is my saviour, or that Eve ate a fruit or any other of these so-called truths. However, I still retain respect for the teachings of Jesus of Nazereth.
With this in mind, here is my opinion.
Jesus asked us to show mercy and compassion to all. No exceptions. Go and do that! When people ask you why you are being so kind, tell them it’s because I follow Jesus Christ. That is how to “preach” to people. That’s how Jesus did it.
As for this supposed day of Judgement – my question is why?
Sin entered into the world and death through sin etc etc. since when is it legal to convict offspring for a parent’s crime?
None of us had any say in that decision in Eden. We did not commit the sin, so why are we automatically punished by being sinners from birth? Remember, Eve had no warning that any punishment would extend to all her offspring, did she?
It simply is not just to act in this way. Even if it did happen after this defence, it is JESUS CHRIST who will judge everyone. Will he kill anyone who is innocent? Will he kill anyone who can be redeemed? I think not.
So, don’t worry! Do what is right, not what is easy. Show compassion to your neighbour and never walk away from someone you know you can help. If you do these things, you are preaching and you are doing what your saviour wanted you to do.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
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Biggiecuzz says:
September 16, 2014 at 11:51 am
[off-topic comment removed – please see posting guidelines]
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Rowland Nelken says:
September 16, 2014 at 11:10 pm
[comment deleted]
Rowland, I deleted Biggiecuzz’s inflammatory off-topic comment precisely because I didn’t want an atheist v. theist firefight on JWsurvey. This website is dedicated to helping Witnesses out of Watchtower’s undue influence. There are plenty of websites where atheists and theists can go toe to toe – this cannot be one of them. I appreciate your passion on this subject, and I share it to a large extent, but please let’s stick to the script and not get sidetracked by those who are spoiling for a fight.
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imacountrygirl2 says:
September 16, 2014 at 12:40 pm
Excelsior, I think your comment “Jesus asked us to show mercy and compassion to all. No exceptions. Go and do that! When people ask you why you are being so kind, tell them it’s because I follow Jesus Christ. That is how to “preach” to people. That’s how Jesus did it.” is spot on.
Jesus whole life and message was about love. To love God with all that we are and to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. To treat other people the same way we would like to be treated.
As Jehovah’s Witnesses we were taught to judge others and be critical of those who were not Jehovah’s Witness, an elitist attitude to be sure as “we were the only ones who had the truth”.
It is no one’s right to judge anyone, not even to judge ourselves. God gave the assignment of judging to his Son, Jesus. Jesus can read our hearts, so only he is in a position to decide who is and who is not worthy of his blessings.
I think your advice is wise: “Do what is right, not what is easy. Show compassion to your neighbour and never walk away from someone you know you can help. If you do these things, you are preaching and you are doing what your saviour wanted you to do.”
Excelsior, I’m for one am glad you are on this site, your comments are kind and encouraging to all of us who need it. I also have noticed the respect that you show others, even if there is a difference of opinion.
We are a better site for having you on here, IMHO.
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Biggiecuzz says:
September 16, 2014 at 12:55 pm
@Cedars,
You allow all types of off-topic comments on this web site but you can’t let me pose one question to one of your regular off-topic posters? Seems like you are just as judgmental as the JW’s.
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Cedars says:
September 16, 2014 at 3:14 pm
Sticks and stones.
I can’t catch every off-topic comment, being only human. But when I do, especially a comment designed to start an argument over a difference of beliefs, I remove it.
Do you have a problem with our posting guidelines? I have excellent news – you can find another website, or start your own.
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imacountrygirl2 says:
September 16, 2014 at 1:18 pm
Cedars, I know you have not asked for my opinion, but I have one anyway.
I have to agree with Biggiecuzz on this one.
I know these are your topics and most of us stay on topic.
We have gotten off topic before because as your readers, we have no way to communicate with each other, unless we go off topic.
Your average daily visitors is 3,079. That’s a lot of visitors!!
I have seen personal comments on here that my heart told me I had to respond to, on topic or not. I think from time to time, we all need some extra encouragement. Or we may have a situation and need some input from someone who we think will understand us.
Speaking for myself, I would be distraught if we did not have the freedom to go off topic.
Personal attacks are never appropriate, IMHO.
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Cedars says:
September 16, 2014 at 3:19 pm
imacountrygirl2 – this is not a forum. Yes, we have a growing community, and yes we do allow a great deal of freedom of discourse, but we need some rules. The fact that I don’t have as much time to enforce these rules in each and every instance as I would like doesn’t mean people needn’t respect them.
And I am more inclined to enforce our “off-topic” rule when the comment in question is intended to start a fight or attack someone else’s beliefs (or lack thereof), hence dragging the page even more off-topic, as this one was.
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Gareth says:
September 16, 2014 at 1:36 pm
It wasn’t just off-topic, it was a spark for an evangelical firestorm. Bordering flamebait.
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Cedars says:
September 16, 2014 at 3:20 pm
I’m glad someone else saw it before I removed it.
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JimmyG says:
September 16, 2014 at 1:45 pm
@ anonymous. “I have Watchtower volumes going back to 1965 and if anybody had them going back to 1950….” The WT cd-rom goes back to 1950 with the wt mag and 1970 with the awake. The following website has all of the WT’s publications printed pre 1950 :
http://wtarchive.svhelden.info/english/books-and-tracts/
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Elmay says:
September 16, 2014 at 2:02 pm
Instead of continuing on what is wrong with the watchtower org. and its rediculous teachings (been there) I have and am searching Truth in EVERYTHING. As I learn truths(revealed by thought, reason, and reading I see how yes, false so much of the teachings of the Hallowed Bible readly are. Good is Beautiful. Truth is what was, is , and shall be. Thank you
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Ted says:
September 16, 2014 at 2:38 pm
According to the Apostle Paul, anyone who accepts Jesus
has no need to be overly concerned, (Or coerced).
Jesus has paid their debt,.. They now have the FREE GIFT
OF LIFE. Not death at Armageddon, Rom,5/17. Rom,6/23
NWT.
Then the con artists emerge, ( The Religionists ) , and claim
the gift is not really free, you’ve got to start paying back,
you’ve got to earn your salvation. And we are the authorised
collection agents. You can make cash donations, pay tithes.
or sell literature, and you must serve our interests permanently.
Don’t be taken in, The Bible says your debts paid, wise up to
the con men , people like Rutherford, who admitted he’d
been a bluffer all his life, and now his pupils in N,York.
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anonymous says:
September 16, 2014 at 3:29 pm
Thank you that info Jimmy. I just spent about $50 ordering 1961, 62,63 and 64 Watchtower bound volumes off of Ebay and am looking at a set of 51-59 and a 1960. If I get all those, I will have to find room for them though. This might take me a few years but I think it would be a fun thing to do in my old age. Just paging through those old Watchtowers is amazing and brings back a lot of memories. There are so many crazy things I could put in a book like that, like the one where it was wrong to play chess because it was too “violent” and the article about how a Christian wouldn’t go to see the movie E.T. because he’d have to be a demon.
I think putting in those statistics that John put in this article would be amazing for most Witnesses to think about. The Society never explains any of that to the rank and file. I think most don’t want to bother their brains about it though and just “trust” in Jehovah that he will do the right thing.
I remember in 1975 when the Society was pushing that it was going to be the “end” of this system, thinking to myself at the time “but wait, so many people are still coming into the truth, so why would Jehovah destroy the world of mankind when so many people are still coming into the truth???? But I couldn’t tell anybody what I was thinking because they would thought that I was implying that the Society didn’t know what they were talking about and I didn’t dare to “question” the Society.
I never really did believe in Armageddon but yet in the back of my mind, the fear was always there, “just in case” they were actually getting this from God after all.
I wonder if the Governing Body really believes in Armageddon or not, since a thinking person could never conceive of a “loving” God, killing billions of people who have never even heard of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Are they deceived deceivers or just deceivers? I think deluded deceivers.
I was reading in Apocalypse Delayed by M. James Penton that the Governing Body having “body guards” goes way back to at least Knorr’s time and the biggest reason he said it was to insulate themselves from the “ordinary” rank and file (question then is are they part of a regular congregation) and so as not to answer questions from the press.
I think a good question to ask them would be “Is it true that Jehovah is speeding up the work?” I think they’d say yes. Then why if Jehovah is speeding up the work and he doesn’t want anybody to be destroyed, isn’t he capable of having a “witness to all the nations, BEFORE the end comes???? “Isn’t all thing possible for Jehovah?” Of course they have to say that those countries who haven’t got Witnesses in that country bear “community” responsibility or else a “thinking” person would come back with with the question then “why would I think that Armageddon is imminent? Why am I going out there knocking my head against all those brick walls and wasting my life away, when there are all those people who have never even heard of Jehovah???? Armageddon must be hundreds of years away.
I think the reason they isolate themselves is so they don’t have to answer any questions from actual, honest to goodness people with a half a brain in their heads.
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Reader says:
September 16, 2014 at 3:51 pm
This is a question that I have posed to a few active JW’s: “Does your neighbour really understand the issue of Universal Sovereignty?” The response had always been “No” so far.
The follow-up question is then “do you think a just god will destroy the vast majority of humans that don’t even understand the basic issue at hand. Of your closest neighbour doesn’t understand, then what do you expect from anybody else?”
Here is the deal: the preaching is just busy work. It enables them to push the almost converted to make a public stand on issues, which then gets them emotionally involved. They then become trapped into defending beliefs before they have even had the time to properly mentally confirm them. If they never get to the confirmation step, they are then in for life.
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Gameisover says:
September 17, 2014 at 1:55 am
What a nice and up building comment, Excelsior.
Thank you
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Gameisover says:
September 17, 2014 at 2:27 am
I imagine it would be useless for the ones that are going to be baptized to be told about the 1000 crazy rules that govern this organization. By then they are completely brainwashed with the thought of never dying, the seeing their dead loved ones on the earth, the end being imminent ,etc.
However, one thing that should be mandatory would be to explain to them thoroughly theSHUNNING policy.
They can never leave the organization for ANY reason, much like the Mason, Illuminati and other secret societies.
If they do they would lose everything: all their friends, including the best friend, their parents, children, grandchildren, every single person in their life connected to
The “truth”.
Somehow I suspect quite a few would think twice.
Newly baptized ones are never told about this or the degree in which this badness is perpetrated.
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anonymous says:
September 17, 2014 at 2:54 am
In Apocalypse Delayed, Mr. Penton points out that even though most Witnesses don’t go along with each and every rule or doctrine or reasoning of the Watchtower, they don’t disassociate themselves because they think that in “Jehovah’s due time”, he will step in and fix the organization. That is why they all continue to hang on. I know that was my attitude. That is the biggest reason it is so hard to talk reason into the vast majority of Witnesses. First they have to lose faith in Jehovah and then next comes the Organization, from what I gather from Mr. Penton’s reasoning.
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Lesley Mitchell says:
September 17, 2014 at 3:34 am
It was my personal experience that I first had to lose faith in the organisation before I could leave. It was my sister’s personal experience that she first had to discover the extent of the scholastic dishonesty of the organisation before she could leave.
It was both our experience that it was God, through the Holy Spirit, who was drawing us out of the organisation.
The danger in loosing faith in Jehovah is that some ex-Witnesses have become atheists or agnostics because they failed to realise it was the organisation that was at fault. Instead, they blamed God.
Best thing we can do for Witnesses is pray for them that the Holy Spirit will open their eyes, unstop their ears and soften their hearts so that they can receive the true gospel.
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Cedars says:
September 17, 2014 at 3:42 am
Hi Lesley, per our non-evangelism guideline I would appreciate if you could restrain yourself from using our comments section to postulate on why people (not just Ex-JWs) become atheists. Speaking for myself, when I initially freed myself from Watchtower mind control I was still a believer in the mold of Ray Franz. I only went on to embrace agnosticism when I realized that the same evidential demands I was making of Watchtower teachings could be made of the bible, and indeed religion in general.
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Lesley Mitchell says:
September 17, 2014 at 4:02 am
Forgive me but I did not realise my comments fell into the category of evangelising. As for atheists, my comment was merely in response to what Anonymous said about losing faith in Jehovah. It is a fact that many ex-Witnesses lose all faith in God after they leave. I have no apology to make for saying we should pray for Jehovah’s Witnesses. I merely share my personal experience in the hope it will make others stop and think.
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Cedars says:
September 17, 2014 at 4:17 am
You’re allowed to say that YOU pray for Jehovah’s Witnesses. You’re just not allowed to tell everyone else to, just as I would think it rude and inappropriate to order everyone to read Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris books. The non-evangelism rules swings both ways and protects both camps. You don’t have to apologize for breaking it, you simply have to refrain from doing so.
Lesley Mitchell says:
September 17, 2014 at 4:44 am
Cedars, my sincere apologies to everybody who has been offended by my post. Allow me to rephrase by saying that my sister prayed for me for ten years and her prayers were answered and I continue to pray for Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Rowland Nelken says:
September 17, 2014 at 5:20 am
Lesley Mitchell,
I was a God believing Anglican for far more years than I had ever been a Jehovah’s Witness.
It was principally Bible and Koran study that converted me to atheism.
Cedars says:
September 17, 2014 at 6:26 am
No worries, thanks Lesley.
James Broughton says:
September 17, 2014 at 3:20 am
There does seem to be an air of smug satisfaction with the British Witnesses I am in contact with. The only way out of that is to cast doubts on their belief in being ‘God’s sole channel of truth’. They tell people to examine their religion. It is time they did that with their own.
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Excelsior! says:
September 17, 2014 at 3:33 am
Imacountrygirl2 and Gameisover,
Thank you for your kind words of encouragement. It makes me happy when folks understand where I am coming from and appreciate what I, in my small way, am trying to do.
You see, I do not consider faith verses non-faith to be a battle ground. There is no need for us to fight. We all want the same things, after all.
For those with a genuinely held faith, consider this. Does my personal opinion have any effect on God? He would still exist, even if folks like me do not believe in him, wouldn’t he? All his promises would still be true, as would be his purpose for humanity.
Similarly for those, like me, who do not hold a faith, consider this. Do the honestly held beliefs of those with faith have any effect on scientific knowledge? Of course not!
Live and let live. Treat all with dignity and respect. Stand up for what is right.
These principles are common to all. We can choose to divide ourselves into faith verses non faith or we can work together to bring hope to the hopeless, justice to those abused, and freedom to the oppressed.
That is what I want to do. I want to help people. If I do help, and it seems that I do, then that makes me happy.
Please, folks, there are little children and young people being abused by evil people in our ex religion. There are people facing the cruelest shunning and there are dear women out there forced to stay in abusive relationships.
We ALL agree that these crimes are WRONG.
Let’s work together as good hearted people and respect our differences.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
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Lesley Mitchell says:
September 17, 2014 at 3:41 am
Dear xyz, I agree with you that it is God, through the power of the Holy Spirit, who uses people who belong to Christ Jesus to witness about Him. Jesus promised the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and it is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in those who belong to Him that inspires born-again Christians to endure persecution and even death, a living testimony to their transformed lives, lives that are dedicated to serving Him.
But 99.9% of all Witnesses are NOT born again, and they do not have the “anointing” or indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The latest Yearbook statistics indicate that a mere 13,204 Jehovah’s Witnesses claim to be “anointed” and the rest don’t even think they need to be born again! Yet Jesus said no person would ever see the Kingdom of God, let alone be part of it, unless they were born again. How, then, can Jehovah’s Witnesses claim to be “the sons of the kingdom” when they have been excluded from it? They are not in the New Covenant, Christ Jesus is not their mediator and therefore they will die in their sins. That’s what Jesus said, and I believe Jesus. Please read John 3:1-8 and 1 John 5:1-18.
Please be aware that hundreds of thousands of Christians throughout the world are even now suffering persecution, torture and death for the sake of Christ Jesus – and I’m not talking about Jehovah’s Witnesses. I’m talking about people who belong to Christ Jesus and who have been born again and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, people whose lives have been transformed and who bear the fruit of the Spirit as evidence. They are condescendingly viewed by Jehovah’s Witnesses as being part of Christendom, what you call “false religion” soon to be destroyed at Armageddon. Who are the Witnesses to judge other people?
If “the WTS preaching work has nothing to do with the true kingdom preaching work by the sons of the kingdom” then why did Witnesses devote 1,841,180,235 hours last year to the preaching work? My parents became Witnesses in the late 1930’s. I left the organisation after 1975.
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Stephane Laliberte says:
September 17, 2014 at 7:18 am
I have been on the JWD website for nearly 10 years and I personally enjoy the exchange of ideas. If it is ran by WT agents, then they obviously do a very bad job as most of the stuff there is very negative of the WT. So, I don’t see why I should not post there… seriously.
The only thing I hold against JWD is that it is has not been updated in years and some commonly new features would be nice to have on that site.
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anonymous says:
September 17, 2014 at 8:13 am
Instead of commenting on James Penton’s book Apocalypse Delayed, I should have just quoted from the book and let the reader decide which comes first, the chicken or the egg.
In his conclusion, he is talking about why the majority of Witnesses stick with the religion, even with all it’s failed prophecies. I am going to quote directly from his book on page 303:
No religion in the modern world demonstrates the tremendous potency of millenarian ideas more obviously than do Jehovah’s Witnesses, even in what has been often dubbed a ‘secular age.’ It shows the willingness of millions to trust in the prophetic authority of certain individuals or a group even despite the fact that time and again their prohecies have proven false. Then too, it indicates how, by using a date-setting eschatology which has long promised great rewards – both spiritual and material – to the Bible Student – Witness community, men such as Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Franklin Rutherford, and their successors have come to wield an almost ‘Orwellian’ influence over it.
But the question must still be asked, how can this be? Unlike Tertullian, Jehovah’s Witnesses do not proclaim a faith based upon the absurd; they are rationalists par excellence. Of course it is evident that many ordinary Witnesses are simply unaware of the failure of apocalyptic prophecies made by the Watchtower Society in the past and the many logical contradictions that have always been present in the society’s teachings. Few are either old enough or have been associated with the Witnesses long enough to be aware of their early history, and they are not encouraged to delve into it. As for doctrines, unless one makes a concentrated study of them, it is difficult to become aware of even a small number of the incongruities, paradoxes, and outright distortions of historical truth that have been and are present within them.
Yet ignorance is not the only factor which keeps Jehovah’s Witnesses loyal to the Watch Tower Society. Like many Christian sects, the Witnesses have long seen themselves alone as ‘spiritual Israel,’ successors to natural Israel. Thus while the more sophisticated and knowledgeable among them often are aware of many of the serious doctrinal and organizational problems created, in the last analysis, by their organization’s date-setting eschatology, they will frequently argue that while their leaders may be ‘wicked’ as were many of the kings of ancient Israel and Judah, in some ways, God is directing their community, their ‘nation,’ for an especial divine purpose. In the end, they hold, Jehovah will cleanse his organization and remove those who have ruled them with harshness and injustice. ……
However, there are other factors which cause most Witnesses to remain loyal to their leadership and the society. They are, as Joseph Zygmunt has indicated, a world-denying ‘contrast group’ which is amazingly isolated psychologically from the larger societies in which it exists. Hence the average Witness is so preoccupied with the evils of this ‘dying old world’ and his involvement in proselytizing his neighbors that he usually has little time or desire to examine his faith or community objectively. Even should he wish to do so, he would be in danger of being disciplined, ‘marked,’ or disfellowshipped and driven from the community as an apostate. So, as the Watchtower of 1 January 1984 puts it, ‘loyal Witnesses do not so much as “touch” such apostasy.”
Then he goes on in the next paragraph to say how the Witnesses have a “siege” mentality, as classified as a paranoia. Witness leaders have reduced all issues ‘to a battle between Good and Evil influence,’ they manifest ‘qualities of heated exaggeration, suspiciousness and conspiritorial fantasy.’ and they emulate the past or present conduct of organizations such as the Church of Rome and the Communist party in following inquisitorial practices and carrying out purges. While their attitudes and actions have caused a good deal of turbulence within the Witness community and alienation from it, they have been able to rally the support of the majority of their followers who now ‘press on in the kingdom service.’. This does not mean that they do not continue to lose a large portion of their membership both to ‘apostasy’ and ‘moral uncleanness.’ They do, and they are deeply concerned about it. Still, so long as they convert more than they lose and continue to grow in overall numbers, their leaders seem determined to maintain the course, that in general, they have followed since Judge Rutherford created ‘the Theocracy’ in the 1920’s and 1930’s.”
Mr. Penton goes on to say that if the Society gets too much bad publicity, that they may be forced change their policies but he says as Ray Franz did in Crises of Conscience that he does not expect that to ever happen.
Reply
Rowland Nelken says:
September 17, 2014 at 8:43 am
More powerful than bad publicity are expensove court cases and lack of subs and income from mag. pushers.
If there is any JW growth now it is largely in poor coiuntries which generate little income. Forced dunking of kids will be counter productive. The rate of apostacy will only increase.
Penton’s book was pre internet. Discovering the trith about JW TRUTH is now so much easier. It is not only in Europe but also even in the USA where agnosticsm and atheism are growing faster even than Islam.
It is difficult, fortunately, to see how the Watchtower, depsite its vast wealth, its mastery of the dark arts of cult mind control, its smooth PR, its wily expensive lawyers and its commercial nous, can continue to grow.
There was marginal growth in 2013, just about keeping up with the growth in global population, but the rate of growth has been on a steady decline since the advent of the internet. If present trends continue, a decline is inevitable.
Reply
Ted says:
September 17, 2014 at 8:34 am
Seems we’ve veered off topic a little. So perhaps I can add
my two pennorth, or two bits worth, ( depending on which
side of the Atlantic you live.)
I can’t believe the Bible, the Koran, the Book of Mormon
or any other religious book I’ve been exposed to. All books
supposedly handed down in some miraculous way, and only
the word of some obscure person to support the claim.
And all full of such fantastic, often silly tales , that require
you to abandon all reason in order to believe them.
And if there is a creator of this fantastic universe around us
he would certainly not be the author of some of the rubbish
in those books.
As for the existence of a creator, ( And I hope I’m not preaching,
evangelising. ) all I can say is “We live on a highly complex life
support system, How it got here, I don’t know, It was here when
I arrived and it’s kept me alive for 82 years, as it has for every
generation for who knows how many years. It suggests to me
at least, advance planning. Wether such things can occur
randomly or are the intended product of a supreme intellect
each person will draw their own conclusions.
Reply
Melka says:
September 17, 2014 at 9:17 am
This particular topic seems to be something kind of mysterious that I remember discussing in many car groups. From my experience, people haven’t grasped the gravity of the teachings, because when discussing it with others, we have all kind of thought that Jehovah will see into peoples hearts, and really only destroy the wicked. We discussed it, probably because it was hard to imagine or accept Jehovah will kill all those poor people who have no idea about the truth, then after Armageddon, they will have an opportunity to find out, because there was no way everyone out there will be able to hear the truth. It was our local understanding. We however knew the truth, and knew our responsibility, so we had to do it, even if it meant Armageddon wouldn’t come in our lifetime. Even then, it never made a whole lot of sense, hence the frequent discussions. But after becoming awakened, the teaching shifted to the new teaching and “understanding” that Jehovah was going to kill unbelievers and also their children, and the “refreshing spiritual warfare”. And the birds of prey eating all the bodies. At that watchtower, my 4 year old son asked “Is Jehovah going to kill me?” That was the last meeting I attended. Brings tears to my eyes, I will never forget the people discussing and giggling at the comments about how fast the birds can eat a body. They are brain dead.
Reply
Gameisover says:
September 17, 2014 at 9:22 am
Yeah, Rowland, about those numbers, do you really think they are truthful? I say they are masters in lying about everything.
I suspect the numbers are grossly inflated..
I’ve seen them count at assemblies, Memorials, hours, bible studies, etc.
I wouldn’t put my hand in the fire regarding the “growth”. The real truth is that they going down vertiginously!!!!
Reply
Rowland Nelken says:
September 17, 2014 at 9:38 am
If you are right, Gameisover, that is really great news. And since the initial charge and fine in the Candace Conti trial in 2012 we have heard neither the results of any appeal nor of the progress of the 11 other cases against the Watchtower brought by the same lawyers. Then there is the challenge to their charitable status, and their frantic plans to move HQ.
I hope the JW bosses feel under threat. Big cheers at assemblies can only give them so much reassurance.
Reply
Ted says:
September 17, 2014 at 3:09 pm
By focussing on the myth of Armageddon J,W’s are missing
the big picture, The reality is that every single day thousands
die, supposedly , killed by Jehovah because he was angry with
a man who stole a bit of fruit from his orchard.
Since that time, Billions have been killed because that first
“Perfect Man” was stupid enough to listen to a snake, ( well
it was Jehovahs first attempt at making a man, What a pity
he didn’t try again.)
The numbers already killed, dwarf the number that would die at
Armageddon. Throughout history people have hoped their god
would intervene and abolish death, numerous expectations have
been aroused , Usually when some great crisis or disaster
occurs, ( Like a World War ).
The W,T,Org, Has excelled in creating expectations, At least six
predictions in one generation. And like all previous attempts
100% Failure.
At my age, many of my generation have died, including siblings
I’m just glad I wised up to the J,W, Org, 35 years ago and did’t
Waste all my life chasing the wind. Sorry folks but death is the
reality, no one can prove differently. What comes after, if
anything,,we can only guess. In the mean time make the most
of what you’ve got.
Reply
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Millions are oblivious to the preaching work, but “there is no need for us to be overly concerned”
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Posted on September 13, 2014
Jehovah's Witnesses preaching in New York on the 9/11 anniversary - but what about the lack of converts in the Asian and Arab world?
Jehovah’s Witnesses preaching in New York on the 9/11 anniversary – but what about the lack of converts in the Asian and Arab world?
A prominent feature of Jehovah’s Witness teachings is the solemn belief that Armageddon will strike imminently, whereupon divine forces will slaughter pretty much everyone who isn’t a Witness.
Not only is this proposition outrageous and obscene to anyone of modest intellectual capacity who is not under Watchtower’s undue influence, it also poses a problem in Watchtower theology itself. What happens to the millions of people in parts of Asia and the Arab world who will never get to hear the Witness message?
Thus far, a meaningful answer by Watchtower to this conundrum has been notable by its absence. This continues to be the case in the latest December 15th study edition where the issue is masterfully sidestepped.
“When we meditate on the meaning of Jesus’ illustration [of the leaven at Matt. 13:33], we realize that there is no need for us to be overly concerned about how the Kingdom message will reach the millions who have not yet heard it. Jehovah has everything under control. But what is our work? God’s Word answers: ‘Sow your seed in the morning and do not let your hand rest until the evening; for you do not know which will have success, whether this one or that one, or whether they will both do well.’ (Eccl. 11:6)” – Watchtower 12/15 2014 pp.9-10
In case you are wondering what Matthew 13:33 says, here it is (from the revised New World Translation)…
“He told them another illustration: “The Kingdom of the heavens is like leaven that a woman took and mixed with three large measures of flour until the whole mass was fermented.”
And so it is that, because leaven ferments in bread in a process that is “unseen,” Witnesses are to adopt an “out of sight, out of mind / it’ll be alright on the night” attitude to the fact that millions in eastern countries don’t even know what a Jehovah’s Witness is.
Watchtower is essentially saying to any Witness who dares to show concern about the potential slaughter of such ones: “stop asking impertinent questions, and get back to work!”
As this website has previously noted, either a person’s salvation is dependent on him or her responding to the preaching work, or it isn’t. If accepting the ‘good news’ IS a prerequisite, then millions will soon be struck down for the simple ‘crime’ of being born on the wrong side of the planet. If is ISN’T a prerequisite, then what is the point of the preaching work in the first place, beyond a token show of obedience?
No matter how much Watchtower may evade the problem, it isn’t going away any time soon. The map below shows (in red) all the countries where the preaching work is currently under ban (the so-called “30 other lands”)…
Jehovas_Zeugen_-_Länder_ohne_berichtete_Aktivitat
The publisher-to-population ratio for the area in red is 1:50,000 (one Jehovah’s Witness for every 50,000 people). The Witnesses aren’t even scratching the surface in a vast part of the globe spanning from the Atlantic ocean to the Korean peninsula!
And the following video, which uses data from the 2014 Yearbook, explains how the ratio is even worse in some countries where the work is not under ban. For example, you are far more likely to meet a Witness in one of the “30 other lands” than in Bangladesh, where the ratio is a staggering 1 Witness per 775,000 people.
The way Watchtower shrugs its shoulders at the fate of millions of non-Westerners is alarming enough, but the total indifference is driven home later in the magazine when the writers attempt to make Witnesses proud of their “spiritual heritage.”
“Only about 1 in every 1,000 people alive today has an accurate knowledge of the truth, and you are one of them. Should that not give all of us, no matter how we learned the truth, cause for rejoicing?” – Watchtower 12/15 2014 page 30
In other words, “don’t worry that 999 out of 1,000 are about to perish. Rejoice in the fact that you are among the special 0.1% who will survive divinely-mandated mass slaughter by obeying the Governing Body!”
For a group of men who pride themselves on “humility,” the solipsism, self-centeredness and indifference with which the Governing Body greets the obliteration of all who don’t see the world exactly as they do is something to behold.
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144 Responses to Millions are oblivious to the preaching work, but “there is no need for us to be overly concerned”
← Older Comments
Gameisover says:
September 18, 2014 at 4:04 am
The way I see it, Ted, if there is nothing, one will not know the difference.
If there is something, it has got to be very good, if it reflects even minimally, the One who made this marvelous universe.
Regarding punishment and the like, and if we are to believe the scriptures, “he who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” Clean slate.
These are conforting thoughts we can make our own.
They make sense.
The rest are dissensions and inventions.
Reply
JJ says:
September 18, 2014 at 5:11 am
While I was pioneering for The WT, I often thought about this very question; What about those possibly billions of people who have no chance of hearing “the good news”?!?
But I think that is the difference between people like me, who leave, and some of my friends and family who stay in the JW’s; questions. The brainwashed masses of faithful don’t seem to have any questions so they never lose faith (or blind belief).
I just finished reading Journey To God’s House by Brock Talon and it was really excellent. This man was able to extricate himself in a relatively short period of time, and fairly painlessly, because of all the questions he was constantly asking. I wish that I kept working on my questions sooner like Brock!
But whether it takes a long time or a short time, I think it is going to be questions like this website brings up that destroy this corrupt printing corporation.
Reply
Ted says:
September 18, 2014 at 5:24 am
Gameisover
Succinctly expressed. Both options consoling.
Thank You.
Reply
Ted says:
September 18, 2014 at 10:36 am
“No need to be “Overly Concerned”. A carefully phrased sentence.
Leaving out the word Overly might have conveyed the idea of
indifference to the fate of those unable to be contacted. Also
it may have given the brothers an excuse for slowing down on the
preaching.
But the main thrust of the message is , CLOSE YOUR MIND to the
FACTS… The fact that preaching to all the inhabited earth is, if not
impossible, cannot, will not, be accomplished in this generation
( Already the longest generation in history ( 1914- 2014 ) and
counting.
Although not plainly stated, the hidden, subliminal, message is
there. Ignore the failure and leave it to Jehovah to sort out.
Something that the brothers have been asked to do, so many
times it would be too laborious to type out.
Reply
Gareth says:
September 18, 2014 at 10:36 am
anonymous, maybe you don’t need to write that book, just show them the video “The Prodigal Returns”! I watched it yesterday, and I thought it’s quite an eye-opener. JWs really are like the family are before the youngest son leaves the home: only concerned whether he will be able to keep up meeting attendance and field service hours. His friend Al being bad association purely because he doesn’t visit the meetings regularly. Not one bit about his personality. They’re not happy for him that he’s going to get his own place. They’re not helping him to find a cheaper place. Or negotiate the rent. Etc. *Very* black/white view on life: either you’re pioneering or living a debauched life with too many parties with too much alcohol, the house is a complete mess all the time, credit card deep in the red… Then the parents grieving over him “having left Jehovah” instead of them being happy that he’s maturing (bumpy, but ok…). I don’t quite get why he doesn’t answer the phone when his father calls? Shame, I guess.
Quite funny, after he’s been to Taylor and crying I thought “well losing your job and friend like that is no fun, but this reaction seems a bit extreme? and he had Taylor consoling him? what does Jehovah have to do with this?” Haha, naive me!
Of course, the only thing “worldly girls” want is to get laid! Duh! Bonus points for “luring” a good JW out of the truth! *Sigh*. How egotistical of her not thinking about his JW family feelings torturing themselves over their “lost son”! *shakes head* 😉
A much more likely ending would have been him moving in with Taylor and finding a job, getting a grip back on life and pay off his debts. And… be happy?
How come at the end he suddenly likes being a carpenter? How unlikely is that?
Reply
anonymous says:
September 18, 2014 at 11:07 am
Hi Gareth. I watched that video a while ago and had all I could do to keep from falling asleep or gagging. I can’t think of less interesting and boring videos than the Watchtower videos, nauseatingly terrible really, and that is long before I “woke” up. I wonder how many others still in the “org” think the same thing but just aren’t free to say anything?
Somebody made a comment back that getting applause at the assemblies for the Governing Body isn’t enough and I got to thinking about that applause. We were forced (shamed) to go to meetings and assemblies (Heb. 10:25) and “shamed” into clapping. Those men giving the talks are fooling themselves if they think their talks are that good.
It sounds like Maybe Cedars is coming out with a book? He would be the one to do it and a good job of it. I have a bunch of Watchtowers coming from the 1950’s though and I think it will still be fun for me to come up with my own crack at it. Last year before I woke up, I had written about 15 pages of how the Watchtower ruins people’s lives and then I went on line to see all these great Youtube videos etc. like Cedars and found out that there are dozens of good books already out about how the Watchtower ruins people’s lives and so I tore up my 15 pages. Now, I’d go at it differently. What I really want to see is Cedars’ book taking off and bringing down the Watchtower. If he covers what I’d have covered, I’d hang up the idea for myself and I’d be the first to buy his book. I can’t think of a more intelligent and self-sacrificing person to bring the Watchtower down than John (Loyd) Cedars.
Reply
Gareth says:
September 18, 2014 at 11:23 am
Well, actually, I thought this one was quite well done! Contrasting personalities make for good entertainment. I loved how Al was played! So over the top, so ridiculous, I had a good couple of laughs. Although maybe that’s also because I recognize the attitude, but now I think how silly it all is. OTOH, having yourself judged by your brother (and my case my younger sister) hit home hard. Very sad.
Also, in real life, the elders do not really take the time to console and “warn” people. That point was untrue. They only immediately have time in case there is a judicial committee to be performed. At least that’s my experience.
Anyway, far from boring, that is my opinion. It could be boring for the JWs “in”, as for them, it just reaffirms their view on life. But showing it to a non-JW interested in JWs could be a good starting point for a discussion. (Which I thought was the goal of your book, non-JWs studying with JWs).
Reply
michael glenn says:
September 18, 2014 at 11:36 am
i think the issue is that watchtowr does not belive god is concerned with mans salvation he is only conerned with vindicating his soverenty and mans salvation is secondary this teaching startedwith rutherford most witnesses are oblivious to this all of course actually most will deny they think everyone will die at armogedon there either lying or ignorant
Reply
anonymous says:
September 18, 2014 at 12:39 pm
Hi Gareth. I will have to watch that video again with “new” eyes of understanding. The first and only time I watched it, I hated it so much that I didn’t get a thing out of it. Every time I ever watched one of those videos, I had to force myself to do it, but of course I could never admit that to anybody out loud.
Reply
anonymous says:
September 18, 2014 at 12:53 pm
Hi Gareth. I tried. I really tried. I saw it was 1 hour and 34 minutes long and I got about 15 seconds and couldn’t take another second. What I remember about it when I did manage to force myself to watch it before was I wondered how in the world the “worldly” brother got such a good job when he probably didn’t go to college? That was so far out of reality in real life of a JW. Without college, the most that boy could aspire to was being the janitor for that company. I can’t remember if he went to college but if he didn’t, that just goes to show you how detached the Governing Body is in thinking that any JW could get such a good job like that without going on to college. Just that part makes me angry, let alone the rest of it.
Reply
Gareth says:
September 19, 2014 at 7:33 am
I didn’t mean to make you angry. Although having connections does help when finding a job (the whole reason LinkedIn exists), the scenario in this movie is quite unlikely indeed. I don’t know whether the GB really think any JW could get that job… I figured it way just a way to create context for the story. So you can also view it the other way around: as the young man couldn’t have gotten a college education (as that is frowned upon), they had to resort to an unlikely storyline to get to their point. Anyway, all this could be insightful to JWs-to-be.
Reply
Ted says:
September 18, 2014 at 4:12 pm
Apart from the 30 countries where JWs, are banned, and the
meagre ratio of publishers to population in some other lands.
Making it impossible to accomplish a fulfilment of Matt24/14
in this generation.
There is an equal if not more formidable obstacle. It is the
number of Languages in the world. At least some part of the
Bible is available in 2,508 , very impressive. But the number
of catalogued languages in the world is 6,909, the W,T, is
published in a mere 220 languages.
One tends to think in terms of one country one language, but
this is by no means the case, In Papua New Guinea for
example, the population is 3.9 million, quite a modest figure
but 832 languages are spoken. in that one country.
So as we can see, the W,T, Org, has yet to learn another
6,689 languages,
Please wake up brothers, it’s not going happen is it. Don’t
be taken in with the glib explanation ” With God all thing are
possible. If an all powerful god wanted the job done within
a limited time period, he would have provided his people
with the means to do it.
( Figures, concerned with world languages taken from,
The Ethnalogue , published by SIL in 2009.)
Reply
Robin says:
September 18, 2014 at 5:57 pm
You guys are wrong. According to the September Kingdom Ministry, the fact that Har-Maguedon is coming soon really is a good news. We will get rid of all the wicked. Of course we are now part of the wicked but we just need to become JWs. Isn’t it worthy?
Reply
anonymous says:
September 19, 2014 at 9:44 am
Hi Gareth. It was just the video made me mad at the Governing Body for implying it was so easy to get a good job like that. I think the best way to bring down the org is with a really good book that takes off, which it sounds like John (Loyd) is working on and I am looking forward to. Most Witnesses would look at that video and think it was great. I look at it as one hour and 34 minutes I can never get back in my life again.
Reply
Excelsior says:
September 20, 2014 at 4:00 am
Gareth and anonymous,
I, too, have watched that “blockbuster”.
The worst part was not in the movie itself, it was in the questions and answers section where they interview the “actors”.
It is stated there that all non Witness family members are bad associations and all “worldly” people are bad associations.
This is logically flawed! How can a “bad association” ever become a Jehovah’s Witness?
This video was repulsive in the extreme and I do not want to waste any of my finite time on this wonderful planet watching it again!
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Reply
Gameisover says:
September 20, 2014 at 7:03 am
In fact, I threw it away without watching it. I’m suspicious all the tear jerkers they have been produced lately.
Reply
Gameisover says:
September 20, 2014 at 7:09 am
In fact, I threw it away without watching it. I’m suspicious
Of all the tear-jerkers they have been producing lately.
I’m also upset because my “prodigal son” will never
Return, but for the opposite reason.
Reply
Ted says:
September 20, 2014 at 7:46 am
Reading about the personality of the Bible god Jehovah
it’s not difficult to believe he would slaughter millions in
an Armageddon.
His capacity for unjust slaughter of even infants and babies,
so young they could not possibly be accused of any rebellion
against him. Josh, 6/21.
The killing of whole families because of the fathers sin Josh, 7/24-26.
The stoning to death of a man for collecting firewood on the
Sabbath. Numb,15 /32-36.
Any of those things happening today would arouse universal
condemnation, and disgust, and would probably be printed
In the W,T, to show why Jehovah needs to bring an end to this
wicked system.
Reply
Ragnar says:
September 21, 2014 at 5:56 pm
Why does the WTS not use satelite broadcast where house to house preaching is impossible? Many other Christinan evangelizers do and even high rank Muslims in middle east have converted to Christ. Much of the evangelize TV programs are crap but some are that good they make this.
Reply
anonymous says:
September 28, 2014 at 10:38 am
Interestingly their application of the leaven in this instance is a flip flop….Aid to Understanding taught this application and then it was adjusted in the Insight book to say that leaven could only mean the spread of apostasy…so now are they reverting to the old interpretation?
Reply
Ben Burns says:
September 29, 2014 at 8:01 pm
How foolish do you think we are. JWs ahave absolutely nothing to do with what God sees as right or just.
We have nothing to do with the out come of Armageddon nor on who will or will not survive it. The Bible gives us instructions. It is up to us to follow them or not.
How many died in the flood without knowing it was coming
how many died in Sodom and Gomorrah without knowing of any warning.
The people before the flood and of Sodom and Gomorrah will be resurrected to be given a chance to choose.
What ever happens leading up to Armageddon (Gods war against corrupt political commercial and religious systems) will be the right and just thing from Gods point of view not mans
The judgment will start with the house of God
1 Peter 4:17 “For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God. Now if it starts first with us, what will the end be of those who are not obedient to the good news of God? “
Reply
Lesley Mitchell says:
November 20, 2014 at 2:17 am
All Christians would agree that they have nothing to do with what God sees as right or just because our God is a holy and righteous God. All Christians are aware of the judgments that befell the people in Noah’s day, and the people of Sodom and Gomorrah. The problem isn’t with God – the problem is with the false teachings of your denomination. There is no second chance. Billions of dead people will not be resurrected with physical bodies to live on planet Earth and have 1,000 years in which to conform. The Bible says man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment (Hebrews 9:27). According to the Bible, the dead will come before the judgment seat of God in heaven, there to answer for their godlessness. Those who have been saved will come before Christ Jesus, there to receive their rewards. We are to be judged on what we did while alive.
As for the family of God being judged first, the Bible says that only those persons who are in the new covenant, who have been born-again (or born from above) and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit can claim to be adopted into God’s family (Romans 8:15-17). Jesus said no person would even see the kingdom of God (let alone be part of it, whether as a ruler or as a subject) unless they were born again (John 3:1-15 and 1 John 5:1-18). Yet 8 million Witnesses cheerfully admit they are not born-again! How, then, can they be part of the family of God?
Finally, the September 2011 Watchtower article ‘What is Armageddon?’ said only the incorrigibly wicked will be destroyed at Armageddon. Do you think every person who does not belong to your organisation is “incorrigibly wicked”? Where, in the Bible, does it say you have to belong to an organisation in order to be saved? My Bible says you have to belong to Christ Jesus to be saved. Sir, you have been deceived and you have bought into the doctrines of men.
Reply
wpetersen says:
October 30, 2014 at 7:45 pm
good shot, my dear friend!
I believe that it would be seriously difficult to really enumerate the many truly awful pieces of garbage that can be attributed to that prolific psychopath.
By pointing out this one, you tag a major insidious
tool, one of many, used to induce functional psychopathy in those unfortunate enough to have placed their hearts and minds at his ‘disposal’. Thank you,dear friend
Reply
wpetersen says:
October 30, 2014 at 7:54 pm
forgive my oversight…. my previous post was in response to Micheal Glenn (sept. 18) … couldn’t stoop myself as I truly despise that lowlife Rutherford…
Thanks again.
Reply
Holy Conolli says:
November 20, 2014 at 5:20 am
WARREN, I FELT THE SAME AS YOU FOR SO LONG ON ALL THE RIDICULOUS RULES THEY MAKE UP AS THEY GO ALONG. grooming, beards,Minimum hours for Field Service,Hair cuts,Everytime I would say something about the rules being non scriptural they would say well, it is the scriptural principal and It is God’s Organization ( Mother ship ) that is directing it? On one hand they claim EVERYTHING they do is based on the bible and then they make up 100’s of man made rules that hve nothing to do with the bible. They have become just LIKE The Pharisees. Rules, Rules Rules. Warrem I wore a beard for a while myself back in my JW’s days and I was ostracized and told I was being “REBELLIOUS” which I was not. They would not allow me to carry Microphones ( another rule ) or lead the group in FS. They even gave a talk saying,”SOME” may not allow their conscience to have them preach door-door or associate with another JW if they do not look like a JW or are not appropriately “groomed” and setting a good example? However there was a 350 lb Brother who was so fat he could not walk up steps or go tot he door and he was ok to go door-door and give talks etc? So I guess he was setting a good example? What unscriptural hypocrisy they practice.
Are you still a JW Warren and attending meetings? It sounds like you are but you have so many issues with the WT I have a hard time understanding if you are unless it is th family/friend pressure thing.
Reply
anonymous says:
November 20, 2014 at 5:46 am
@Ben Burns. I am wondering if you are a Jehovah’s Witness? If so, then you don’t believe in those who were killed at Sodom and Gomorrah and at the flood are going to be resurrected. This would be “apostate” thinking.
Reply
Wild Olive says:
December 4, 2014 at 6:07 pm
Something that happened to me while I was pioneering back in the late 80s that has a bearing on people “hearing the truth”
I was studying the live forever book with two different people,the first guy stopped his study when we got to the part about the generation that won’t pass away,he said that he couldn’t accept it because that was a misrepresentation of the facts and was against Jesus words of not knowing the time or the hour of Gods judgement.
The second guy,also studying the LFB,stopped his study when we got to the part about seperating the sheep and the goats,he explained to me that seperating the sheep and the goats was Jesus role ,not that of any human.
Interestingly both these guys turned out to be right in their thinking WELL before the GB changed both of these “truths”.
I just wonder how many more people are there like these two who already know the “truth”well before the GB do.
Are in fact jws teaching something that has to have ongoing alterations,so really in the end those in the western country’s who have heard “the truth” haven’t really heard it because it will need to be changed again in the near future,what they did hear was not the latest version lol,so how could God in his right mind,destroy them for not hearing the latest
Reply
Lesley Mitchell says:
December 5, 2014 at 10:57 am
Thank you for sharing those insights, because my parents, who became Witnesses in the late 1930’s, believed they were the generation that would still be alive when Armageddon came. They both died disappointed.
Reply
anonymous says:
December 5, 2014 at 1:45 am
@Wild Olive. I started a study in the Live Forever book with a young mother and it was maybe the 3rd time going back there and she was very interested until I had her look up a scripture that was supposed to support the thought in the paragraph. I could not see how that scripture had anything to do with the thought and said so. I knew in my heart that I “blew” it because of that comment. She never answered the door when I went back after that. Now I am glad for her that that happened and she never got “brainwashed” into the organization.
Reply
Wild Olive says:
December 25, 2014 at 4:07 pm
@anonymous,I agree with you whole heartedly,Ime also glad that the young mother you spoke of didn’t get drawn in,something that I noticed over time was that all the witnessing I’ve done,over the last 35 yrs,hasnt bore any fruit in ME.
I would have thought that all the time spent in faithful work would have brought a deep heart change,but it hasn’t been the case,I know a lot more,but I found that when I stepped down as an elder ,that spiritually I was still in the same place when I was baptised 30 yrs previously,the “truth”had just been an activity that distracted me and kept me occupied with no real heart change taking place,not all of it is bad,it just hit me that all I had done was collect knowledge,I was no closer to Jehovah in real spiritual terms,this was the beginning of my awakening,I had always been ready to do what was asked of me,but now the questions I was asking is where do I stand before God?
How could all of that spiritual work done not have a better effect on Me?
Why did I feel that God was still “distant”?why did it feel that as soon as I couldn’t “do the job ” anymore that I was completely empty and condemned despite decades of faithful service?it just made no sense. If you want to hear the rest of the story let me know
Reply
anonymous says:
December 25, 2014 at 5:31 pm
@Wild Olive. Being an elder has to be such a hard job for any man, but especially if a person really wants to do “God’s Will” and your story sounds real interesting to me and to everyone I am sure.
All the time I was in the “truth”, I was always depressed but could never put my finger on why but once I separated myself from the meetings and service and assemblies, I don’t have that sinking feeling anymore so I know it was the guilt that had been laid upon me by the Society that did it. Even just reading the Watchtower on line, brings back that feeling of dread. It isn’t good for me to even do that.
I told the 2 brothers that came here last week that they don’t have an approach to God in prayer since Jesus is supposed to only be the intercessor for the “anointed” and that went right over their heads.
There is so much wrong with the “truth” that it’s difficult to know where to begin. I think each of us could write our own unique experiences in a 600 page book and maybe even then, we could use a few more pages than that to express it all. I know I sure could. The two books that Ray Franz wrote equal about 1,000 pages I think, and even then, he left out a lot.
Reply
Wild Olive says:
December 27, 2014 at 2:58 am
@anonymous,your comment on the mediatorship of Christ to the two that came to visit you,as you said right over their heads,the average Jw had been taught to overlook full value of the Ransom.
I spent some time with Moslems through work and various other circumstances,something that dawned on me was how similar the position of a Moslem is to the average non anointed Jw,the Moslem is not in a covenant,doesn’t have a mediator,therefore doesn’t receive the indwelling spirit,and only knows if he has gods approval if he performs the prescribed works,how could I have not seen it before?how can the GB get away with teaching what they are and not realise the same?how can they make rules on who is in the new covenant and who’s not?where in the Bible does it say that any human can decide who qualifys to be in the new covenant?especially since the ONLY way that Jehovah deals with humans at this time is via the new covenant,so how can you have his approval without seeking to be party to the new covenant?where in the Bible is an uncovenanted Christian talked about and how can anyone have a true standing with God without seeking his legal means of dealing with us?where is Jesus Ransom offered “by extension” to someone not in the new covenant
Reply
anonymous says:
December 27, 2014 at 12:44 pm
@Wild Olive. I think that almost every Jehovah’s Witness thinks they have an approach to God through prayer “in the name of Jesus” but according to the Insight Book and other places in the JW literature, it’s clear, Jesus is supposed to be the mediator only for the anointed. If you were to ask the average Witness if Jesus is their mediator, I’d bet you dollars to donuts, that almost every single Witness would answer yes. What about the elders when they give prayers at the meetings?
How can they legitimately offer prayers in the “name of Jesus” when they should know that Jesus is the mediator only for the anointed?
It’s as you said from the Insight book. The Insight book and the Society say that the rest of the Witnesses “benefit” from it. How???? That is not answered. They just say that the rest benefit but never say how and how does that make anybody else’s prayers legitimate if they can’t claim Jesus as their intercessor between them and God?
It is such a pity that such an important teaching as that (which is right in the Insight Book for all to see) when it comes to if they even have an approach to God in prayer, shouldn’t wake up every single Jehovah’s Witness but it doesn’t.
The reason it doesn’t dawn on them is is because they never question the Society and have complete trust in the Society and can’t conceive of the idea that this Organization that they have devoted their lives to, could lead them in the wrong direction.
It goes to show you the cult “mind control” that the Organization has over it’s members.
Reply
Wild Olive says:
January 1, 2015 at 3:43 am
Yeah that’s it in a nutshell anonymous.
They are all worshipping their organization,the most cleverly camouflaged idol ever conceived,passed off as worship to the most high”by extension ”
The GB is completely infatuated with their organization,and want all of us to feel the same,not this fellow.
Reply
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Millions are oblivious to the preaching work, but “there is no need for us to be overly concerned” →
Bible-shaped baptism pools take center stage at the South Korea international convention
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Posted on September 6, 2014
Baptismal candidates at the South Korea international convention symbolized their dedication in giant bibles
Baptismal candidates at the South Korea international convention symbolized their dedication in giant bibles
Photos have been released online showing a curious arrangement of bible-shaped baptism pools at the recent 2014 international convention in South Korea.
It is unclear precisely who made the “bible pools,” or how much time and expense was invested in their construction. What is certain is that they were a prominent feature at the Watchtower-sponsored event.
The bizarre structures seem to have doubled-up as elaborate props for announcing the release of the revised New World Translation in Korean.
The video below shows volunteers removing a black cover from one of the giant bibles to reveal the latest silver design against a backdrop of applause.
bible-pools10665651_1498881360357265_785440483_n
This website has already noted the extraordinary lengths Watchtower is now going to in promoting their international conventions. The rulebook regarding kingdom hall decorum has been thrown out the window, with big-spending delegates entertained by ‘worldly’ music, and even line dancing, by some congregations. Souvenirs and trinkets are also becoming the latest craze, with the JW.org logo assuming a prominence on badges, bracelets and pendants that would have been considered idolatrous a few years ago.
As the organization continues to depart from its more austere traditions and encourage a frenzy surrounding its website and promoting the JW.org brand, those of my generation (and previous generations) will be left scratching their heads at the apparent hypocrisy of it all. If Armageddon is truly imminent, due to strike at any moment, and warning people of this mass slaughter is the primary occupation of Witnesses, why is it proper to spend so much time, energy and resources constructing giant bible-shaped stage props?
new-cedars-signature2
Further reading…
◾Convention gimmicks, trinkets and souvenirs…
◾Partying in the kingdom hall…
◾“Get ready for the time of your life!”…
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124 Responses to Bible-shaped baptism pools take center stage at the South Korea international convention
Newer Comments →
Brad Zook says:
September 6, 2014 at 2:49 pm
Most everything I’ve seen from the WT in the past year my immediate reaction is, “No. That’s got to be a creative apostate joke.” Then I find out it’s real. Or, surreal as the case may be. How could things get nuttier?
Reply
Cedars says:
September 6, 2014 at 2:52 pm
I know what you mean Brad. I had to check the video to make sure it wasn’t some photoshop prank. What’s next, giant inflatable Governing Body members?
Reply
Mark says:
September 6, 2014 at 2:57 pm
I’m sure witnesses will wonder what the fuss is about here. Surely there can be no harm in building Bible-like structures that double up as baptism pools?
But the point is that it’s getting more and more puzzling why they would go to such lengths when the end is soooo close. It appears that many witnesses actually don’t want the GT to arrive because it would spoil the nice little earner they are making on the side from their ‘brothers’.
I see many witnesses now living as if the end is a long way off. Even those who used to ask me ‘will you survive till ’75?’ are still looking forward many years into the future.
It just gets more and more puzzling, as you rightly say, John.
Reply
gary says:
September 6, 2014 at 3:01 pm
Is that a picture of Christ in my toast. . .it must be the truth. . You’ll have to excuse me busy building an alter.
Reply
Gareth says:
September 6, 2014 at 3:07 pm
Oooooooh gary! It’s the altar where young people are being sacrificed to the GB! How’s that for a scary thought huh?!?
Reply
Gareth says:
September 6, 2014 at 3:05 pm
Hmm a coincidence but I was studying the wt13 july study edition, and on page 32 it says: “The beautiful pictures and photographs that are painstakingly produced are there for a purpose. They are teaching aids that make us think and feel.” (“Painstakingly”, really?)
Maybe it’s me, but I got a real awkward feeling about how intensely the watchtower despises worshiping images of gods/idols… Don’t people also create those images because they are an “aid” in worship to feel connected?
Reply
Annonymous says:
September 6, 2014 at 3:11 pm
Hey cedars! You should do an article explaining how ridiculous the 144,000 doctrine is of “going to heaven” when ridiculously enough they think the whole doctrine of an immortal soul stemming from a human body is from the Devil and apostates. It never made sense to me.
Reply
Carlos Gaio says:
September 6, 2014 at 3:36 pm
Korean JW’s must be rich…
Reply
shannon says:
September 6, 2014 at 3:53 pm
annonymous……your comment…..about the immortal soul….is perfect…something so simple to use…..thank you
Reply
Ted says:
September 6, 2014 at 4:02 pm
Tatty, Pitiful, Squalid attempt at Brainwashing.
Reply
Juan says:
September 6, 2014 at 4:15 pm
Please John!! Don’t give them any ideas!! xD
Reply
Anon a mouse says:
September 6, 2014 at 5:00 pm
A petty, silly article about nothing materially important. This is just criticism for the sake of it and to keep the hits happening on your blog. Stick to the real issues please.
Reply
Cedars says:
September 6, 2014 at 11:29 pm
“Anon a mouse” – you are entitled to your opinion, but hopefully a quick scroll through the other comments will demonstrate that it is not representative of all. People like myself who were raised as Witnesses are seeing the organization changing, departing from its austere “time is of the essence” traditions. The increasingly evident Watchtower-sponsored approach of wasting time and resources in preparations for international conventions entirely contradicts the idea that billions will be slaughtered at any moment and must be warned before it is too late.
I am, however, curious. What do you perceive as the “real issues?”
Reply
chatpal says:
September 6, 2014 at 5:13 pm
geeze, kinda creepy, giant books eating you alive, will kids have nightmares? nothing like good old attention grabbing.
Reply
peter says:
September 6, 2014 at 5:13 pm
When I saw the video it reminded me in a eerie manner, the moonies cult. The more I see what’s going on here, the more I am beginning to see I no longer recognize the religion I used to attend too. The whole Jw.org promotion is so freaky at best, it is clear the train has gotten off the guard rails…lol, I can still remember when in the late 80’s no prominence was given to those taking the lead. Now they are every where, name and picture and all..lol, they are treated like rock stars..lol or the Beatles…lol serious? when the silver bible was released, oh my God you would think the messiah has arrived. people going nuts some crying…serious people? you almost think they never had a bible before in all there lives….lol wow it would not surprise me if the next thing I will see is balloons with the Jw.org logo and a signed picture of each of the GB…lol..Oh wait maybe underwear with there brand…lol. I have to stop anyway just my thoughts.
Reply
Ted says:
September 6, 2014 at 5:17 pm
Bless me Gary, In the name of the father,and of the son,
and of the holy toast.
Reply
Thinking of leaving says:
September 6, 2014 at 6:28 pm
I just can’t believe how much they are changing. From a few years ago such things would of been totally inappropriate for Jehovahs Organization. Now it broadcast over the Internet. Although I am in 2 minds about it. I can sort of see them giving more leeway to the R&F setting up their own Web sites advertising jw.org.Keep this space open I say.
Reply
imacountrygirl2 says:
September 6, 2014 at 6:39 pm
peter, you are right, I don’t recognize this as being anything close to what I learned as a child and grew up with.
Anon a mouse, I don’t know how you cannot see the real issue here. This is evidence of worship bordering on idolatry. I heard one woman in the video sobbing over the unveiling of the Silver mock-up of the RNWT Bible. Don’t you see the creative shock appeal to get the emotions of the Witnesses whipped up into a frenzy? I think it’s meant as a diversionary tactic because they are not serving up any real Spiritual food.
I don’t think criticism of Cedars is warranted, he is only keeping us up to date on the antics of the GB.
The GB is struggling desperately hard to keep their hold onto the blind sheep they have, when they are reduced to a stunt like this.
I believe the GB deserves 10 points for creativity and originality at least. We can safely give them ten points, seeing as how they are down well into the hundreds of thousands of points.
I don’t begrudge my blind brothers and sisters for this entertainment. Anything to bring them a smile in their otherwise dreary, oppressive, controlled sad little lives.
This is on such a magnitude as to serve to actually remove the scales from someone’s eyes.
Reply
Julia Orwell says:
September 6, 2014 at 8:04 pm
LOl, only in S Korea! I think it’s funny.
Reply
Heather says:
September 6, 2014 at 9:07 pm
I don’t normally comment, but when I saw this, my blood started to boil. This is just so hard for me to understand. I left only a few months ago, and even in that short time, I think, what on earth has happened here? I feel like there are going to maybe be some witnesses who will also scratch their heads and wonder “what were they thinking”, and this goes against so many principles we are supposed to hold dear as Jehovah’s witnesses. So many! I feel just sick at this pompous display. How ridiculous. It’s like a major league baseball game, and mascots, when this is supposed to be a spiritual feast. I don’t think anybody paid attention here, they just stared at those eye-sores. It’s just a spectacle. Next they will have the line dancing on the stage, maybe a half-time show. Why are people so oblivious?! The GB or whoever came up with this arrogant display are just getting away with whatever they want now. And how completely deluded do you have to be to not raise your eyebrow here at this display? I am anxious and also nervous to see what they’ll do next. Because you know, witnesses will eat it up with a spoon. It’s very disturbing.
Reply
Mr Secret Apostate says:
September 7, 2014 at 1:04 am
All this is going on and they are asking for money. Just this past thursday meeting in the UK we were shown a video asking for donations and was given a form. All this asking for money when they are selling off mass chunks of real estate and downsizing. They must be in a pickle. Hopefully itll all collapse very soon for them.
Reply
Gareth says:
September 7, 2014 at 1:10 am
Given a form? What was on it? Can you elaborate?
Reply
anonymous says:
September 7, 2014 at 1:11 am
I will bet you anything that those people who spent their time constructing those “pools” counted their time just as people count time building the Kingdom halls.
Who paid for them? Did the contributions come from the brothers and sisters putting their money into the contribution boxes for the “worldwide work?” Or did it come from some rich brothers and sisters?
Is the Society that desperate for converts that they have to resort to such tactics as this? It seems silly to me. Why not just use the plastic lined pools like they always did? Not fancy enough for converts they are afraid to admit, so they have to resort to expensive tactics like the fancy Catholic churches think they have to be or the Glass Cathedral?
Thank you Cedars for posting this. It is very informative as to what is going on in the Org. and if people criticize you for putting it up because it’s silly, I think that’s the point. It’s silly and where does it belong in a serious study of the Bible? They were made just to stir emotions and that spells desperation to me.
Reply
anonymous says:
September 7, 2014 at 1:20 am
and what about the scripture in 1 John 2:16 where it says “…everything in the world-the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the SHOWY DISPLAY of one’s means of life-does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world.”
Reply
kat says:
September 7, 2014 at 1:33 am
let’s all praise the GB for allowing us to finally let our hair down a little, let’s thank them with more donations to show our appreciation because what else can we give them besides our devotion and money for gratitude.
What ‘s next, GB pyjamas’ with the JW. or logo and a scripture “obey those taking the lead”
Reply
kat says:
September 7, 2014 at 1:54 am
Anon a mouse, perhaps the cedar challenge would be more up your alley some serious questions here, how about you participate.
http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/the-cedars-challenge-how-to-bring-down-jwsurvey
Reply
Excelsior says:
September 7, 2014 at 2:06 am
country in the first place!
Absolutely bonkers!
Reminds me of an old episode of Doctor Who starring Pat Troughton called the Mind Robber!! There are giant books that swallow people up and make them fiction.
I wonder how many pioneers could have been funded for the cost of these giant bibles? I wonder how many could have been fed for that money who are starving?
It seems that every International Convention has offered ammunition to JW critics.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Reply
alanv says:
September 7, 2014 at 4:02 am
It all comes down to one thing in my opinion. The Watchtower is going more and more mainstream. They have no choice if they are to survive. While they were in their infancy they could afford to be elite and different.But now it has become harder and harder for the org to grow, so without admitting it, they lower their standards.
This is why most on here including me are amazed at the change they have made and how they now accept things that previously would never have been allowed or tolerated.
There is also less time spent on meetings now, less hours required of pioneers, less time at assemblies, plus all the things John as mentioned on this blog.
I get the feeling from witnesses that although they still think the end will come they don’t overly concern themselves with it now. In fact many view it as a lot of the mainstream churches do.
Reply
Cedars says:
September 7, 2014 at 4:06 am
I agree that they are becoming mainstream in some respects. They are certainly giving more attention to brand awareness and ways of increasing revenue. But in the areas that really matter, e.g. treatment of ex-members, they are becoming less mainstream and more extremist if anything.
Reply
Sardec says:
September 7, 2014 at 6:39 am
John, they’re already inflated with hot air…
Reply
da' says:
September 7, 2014 at 6:52 am
Carlos. Perhaps. However I am thinking more a cultural gesture. My daughter spent much time when young in Korea and when they entertain , they go all out . Of course , all that fuss would have to have been preapproved by the gb
Reply
Chuck Turner says:
September 7, 2014 at 7:56 am
As Bob Dylan once sang: “The times they are achangin'”
:)
Reply
Mr Secret Apostate says:
September 7, 2014 at 8:24 am
Basically the bethel in the uk is being moved from mill hill in london to chelmsford in essex. The congregations in Britain have been shown a dvd or video presentation at the meetings this week asking for donations and they handed out a piece of paper. you put on the amount your donating either monthly or a fixed amount. Because the costing of the new bethel is more than they predicted.
Reply
Gameisover says:
September 7, 2014 at 9:31 am
Just a thought….
They are beginning to look like some TV evangelist. Big props, fancy pools, etc etc etc.
After nearly 50 years, many of those years in the full time
work, I’m so happy now that I’ve left (it’s only been a few months) that I can hardly believe one could feel this way..
Besides having been saved of the infinitely boring meetings
and assemblies, where everything has to do with doing more hours and giving more money, I have come to realize
how beautiful society can be; wonderful people, that spend themselves in helping the needy: hospitals, soup kitchens, something completely foreign to the witnesses. They simply help IF they can count time and IF it has to do with recruiting (I never called it that way, but that’s what it is )
Yes, I’m happy. Oh, I lost everything, in order to buy a Pearl of great value, and the Pearl is FREEDOM to exercise my conscience, to live to my full potential, to do things for others, to love and be loved and have great friends that are not conditional.
I hear many changes are coming. Big ones.
No matter what they are, for me it’s too little too late .
Unless the they eliminate shunning. Then I could have my children and grandchildren back.
Is there a ghost of a chance of that happening?
Reply
anonymous says:
September 7, 2014 at 9:51 am
Hi Gameisover. I was in 48 years before coming to my senses. I don’t see the Society going down in flames any time soon if they can pump out more kids than leave. Just my humble opinion.
Reply
Ted says:
September 7, 2014 at 10:00 am
They’ll clap anything, Just like trained seals, the training is much the
same too.
Reward and punishment , New system, or die at Armageddon.
The difference being, the animal gets it’s reward if it performs.
J,W’s, just get promises, but they still keep jumping through the
hoops.
Reply
Oh glory be!!!!!! says:
September 7, 2014 at 12:38 pm
Yes you are certainly not echoing my thoughts. I am shocked by this blatent no expense spared ” our assembly is better than your assembly” mentality. The money spent here is really disgusting. Is it a “showy display”??????
Reply
Oh glory be!!!!!! says:
September 7, 2014 at 12:42 pm
I would like to know about this form. What country.
Reply
Tam Emers says:
September 7, 2014 at 12:54 pm
I have to say that these pictures were shocking to me. I sold my car in order to attend an international convention in Hungary in 1991. Things were austere there to say the least–the bread and cheese meals that were provided to international delegates ran out on the second day and we ended up taking food from the hotel breakfast buffet to augment what the delegates from Eastern Europe shared with us. But at least it felt authentic. How could people attending a show like this think of it as different in any way from any other religion?
This is after the other shock I had last month of the big jw.org site rollout leaflet. I remember the Bible tracts that used to be handed out, they were packed with scriptures. The new tract has exactly one. And it isn’t even quoted in full!
I am so grateful to have been free of this shabby sideshow–13 years and counting. It would be humiliating to be part of it today.
Reply
Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
September 7, 2014 at 1:19 pm
If Armageddon is truly imminent, Jehovah’s Witnesses should have started to learn how to BURIAL TECHNIQUES that will allow them to spend fewer hours than those they spend recruiting “sheep” and “Other sheep”! I guess it will take them 1000 Years to clean the New World of the bodies of ARMAGEDDON VICTIMS!!
Reply
Interrogative? says:
September 7, 2014 at 1:29 pm
What will come next ? Will the wine on next Nisan 14 be served in glasses in the shape of a Bible ? One more subterfuge to drive the rank and file to forget they are dedicated to an American Religious Corporation ?
Reply
Oubliette says:
September 7, 2014 at 1:47 pm
Well that’s just dumb!
I guess this is what happens when you run out of REAL ideas.
Let’s review: It’s a cult!
Reply
Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
September 7, 2014 at 1:49 pm
I tend to think the “Bible-shaped baptism pools” are to work on the minds of candidates for baptism… The same way is this: (From http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/l/r1/lp-e?q=g+12%2F13+p.+3)
Nigeria
Women taken from Nigeria to Europe by human traffickers are made to take ritual oaths of secrecy at juju witchcraft shrines. To dominate the women and ensure their obedience as sex slaves, traffickers exploit deep-seated fear of punishment from the spirit world.
Reply
gary says:
September 7, 2014 at 3:35 pm
:-( hate bullies. Said to my solicitor one day. . .if you can smell bullshit usually there’s a pile not far away;-)
Reply
gary says:
September 7, 2014 at 3:56 pm
On a happier note :-) this bald cat gets on a bus and the driver asks where’s your fare? Hey I’ve been baptized in the bible.
Reply
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Millions are oblivious to the preaching work, but “there is no need for us to be overly concerned” →
Bible-shaped baptism pools take center stage at the South Korea international convention
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Posted on September 6, 2014
Baptismal candidates at the South Korea international convention symbolized their dedication in giant bibles
Baptismal candidates at the South Korea international convention symbolized their dedication in giant bibles
Photos have been released online showing a curious arrangement of bible-shaped baptism pools at the recent 2014 international convention in South Korea.
It is unclear precisely who made the “bible pools,” or how much time and expense was invested in their construction. What is certain is that they were a prominent feature at the Watchtower-sponsored event.
The bizarre structures seem to have doubled-up as elaborate props for announcing the release of the revised New World Translation in Korean.
The video below shows volunteers removing a black cover from one of the giant bibles to reveal the latest silver design against a backdrop of applause.
bible-pools10665651_1498881360357265_785440483_n
This website has already noted the extraordinary lengths Watchtower is now going to in promoting their international conventions. The rulebook regarding kingdom hall decorum has been thrown out the window, with big-spending delegates entertained by ‘worldly’ music, and even line dancing, by some congregations. Souvenirs and trinkets are also becoming the latest craze, with the JW.org logo assuming a prominence on badges, bracelets and pendants that would have been considered idolatrous a few years ago.
As the organization continues to depart from its more austere traditions and encourage a frenzy surrounding its website and promoting the JW.org brand, those of my generation (and previous generations) will be left scratching their heads at the apparent hypocrisy of it all. If Armageddon is truly imminent, due to strike at any moment, and warning people of this mass slaughter is the primary occupation of Witnesses, why is it proper to spend so much time, energy and resources constructing giant bible-shaped stage props?
new-cedars-signature2
Further reading…
◾Convention gimmicks, trinkets and souvenirs…
◾Partying in the kingdom hall…
◾“Get ready for the time of your life!”…
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124 Responses to Bible-shaped baptism pools take center stage at the South Korea international convention
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Reader says:
September 7, 2014 at 6:18 pm
Giant inflatable GB members sounds like a great idea.
Maybe they’ll start selling Faithful Men of Old bobbleheads too. With the JW.org logo, of course.
Reply
Brother David says:
September 7, 2014 at 9:05 pm
Cedars I see nothing wrong with JWs having a little fun and now and then. I don’t think it’s hypocritical at all. You seem think that JWs need to live like “robots” or otherwise they’re not putting Kingdom interests first. Didn’t Jesus and the apostles have some fun and enjoy life now and then? For example attend weddings, drink wine, etc? Are you going to say they should have spent that time preaching instead? Are you Really Cedars with threads like this one, and your assertion in a previous that that the GB created the no blood doctrine just to be different from other religions, puts your activism in a bad light. If you can, imagine what people researching JWs (who aren’t JWs) are going think. This kind of stuff discredits you.
Reply
Cedars says:
September 7, 2014 at 11:36 pm
I can think of much better ways to have “fun” than spending my spare time building a giant bible-shaped baptism pool.
I suspect you DO see the hypocrisy in this, but want something to criticize me over. The truth is I can remember all too well what the “JW Cedars” was like, and he would have found this stupidity appalling – having grown up in a religion where time was of the essence and all efforts were to be thrown into the preaching work in the last dying moments of this system things before the annihilation of billions.
A quick glance down the other comments reveals that JW Cedars wouldn’t have been alone in reacting that way to this story. But, out of curiosity, what subjects do you prefer to see me write about?
Reply
Queen Elsa says:
September 8, 2014 at 12:17 am
I find this very interesting… As some have commented, why spend so much on a display…no better than the churches they condemn for ostentatious display. I have a like minded person in my midst… What shall I do when she is gone…?
Reply
anonymous says:
September 8, 2014 at 2:22 am
Brother David, are you one of Jehovah’s Witnesses? I am or (have been) and this is (was) like for me here in my area in the U.S: We are not allowed to talk about any hobbies (can have hobbies in the New World) movies (don’t have time for them either) books I have read other an the Watchtower or Bible publications (shouldn’t have time for that either) vacations (showy display) and on and on. If I talk about anything other than going in service (never enough time spent unless you are a pioneer) you are a “discouragement” to the “spirituality” of the congregation so if a person actually does anything “fun” you had better not talk about it or you will be looked down as bad association. The only thing you can talk about and not get a disparaging eye is “theocratic” stuff like service or Bible studies or return visits or anything like that. Other than that, you have to keep your mouth shut.
These people could have spent their time and money doing something “fun” but they couldn’t. They spent their time making these big expensive “pools” that took time to make, take down and dispose of. Where were their families while they were wasting their time on this “showy display”? Or was that their “fun” for the summer.
Cedars is right. If you are a “Witness” our time is supposed to be spent on more “worthwhile” things like reading the Bible, going to meetings and going in service. Anything else is frowned on.
It isn’t about having “fun”. These brothers did it because somebody came up that brain fart and they all went along with it, thinking they were doing it for Jehovah.
Reply
Dean says:
September 8, 2014 at 2:59 am
Go the full hog get Bouncy castles for the kids,to take there mind away from the boring assemblies,just imagine it behind the platform kids heads popping up and down while the speaker is on lol
Reply
Ted says:
September 8, 2014 at 4:53 am
Sure, it’s not a big story, Like another date for armageddon
but as we’ve spent decades with these guys. We like to know
what our old pals are getting up to. Keep us informed John.
Reply
anonymous says:
September 8, 2014 at 5:13 am
Brother David, I had another thought about how much “fun” it would have been for those people to build those pools and on 2nd thought, compared to what their lives are normally, it probably was “fun”.
Around here in my area, the only “hobby” anybody can talk about that seems to be okay is hunting. They can talk about the 10 deer that they shot during deer hunting season and how the filled up their freezer with all that meat, plus all the “friends” in the “truth” freezers and nobody will criticize them for it, even if they take off of meetings to do it, even though these people have more than enough money to buy their meat at the grocery store.
But if a person has enough money and time to take a “vacation”, it should be preaching in unassigned territory or spent at vacations and if it’s not for attending assemblies, then if they are traveling, they had better take clothes along so they can attend the meetings wherever they may be at the time.
No matter what the circumstances are, we have to be going to meetings, out in service or working on a Kingdom Hall project or going to see Bethel or whatever, as long as it has to do with the “kingdom”.
We are not allowed to do anything fun in this “system” because the preaching work is supposed to be our prime goal and we will have all kinds of time in the “new world” for that, right?
Now, our time is to be filled with saving the world of mankind from Armageddon. So, it probably was “fun” for those people to build those pools in compared to what their drab lives are usually. I think it would be more “fun” than going in service or meetings.
But the problem is, it was a waste of time and energy. If they had the time and energy for that, nobody should begrudge them time to do something that would have been fun, not making them feel guilty over not “working” on this complete waste of time and energy, something that will be dismantled and disposed of, and for what? Just to impress a bunch of Bible students with a “showy display”, just like the Catholic Church would do to gain converts.
Reply
Chuck Turner says:
September 8, 2014 at 9:09 am
Exactly….we must try to “out righteous” each other!
Reply
kat says:
September 8, 2014 at 6:01 am
Brother David, you seem to think that making giant bibles for baptismal pools is having fun, OK, I thought baptism was a serious matter?
and have a showy display is having fun also, to bad they don’t practise what they preach.
Reply
Excelsior says:
September 8, 2014 at 10:21 am
anonymous,
The showy display of the Catholic Church is not there to make new converts! It’s there because they have been a religion for thousands of years and they spent their cash on things that the people thought was the right thing to do. What you call a “showy display” a Catholic would call a sincere attempt to bring glory to God.
Please, don’t retain the “let’s bash Catholics” part of your previous Witness persona.
I am also appalled at some of the actions of the Catholic Church, but don’t forget that the works of art and churches were designed and built by people who thought that what they did was for the glory of God.
Now, Brother John, to your comments.
None of us are desirous of JWs not having fun. However, we have all experienced to some degree the scenario so well written by dear anonymous. Don’t watch films, don’t read books, don’t have hobbies etc etc.
JWs are constantly reminded of the imminent arrival of Armageddon, and they are told to preach beyond any other consideration.
Remember, this “War of God the Almighty” will result in the death of potentially billions of our fellow human beings.
How does a bible shaped baptism pool help bring folks to salvation exactly?
As you are here, can you answer some questions for me?
Who will survive Armageddon?
Who will die? Will children be killed? Will disabled people be killed? When, in your opinion, is it coming?
anonymous, I really admire your moral stance and I truly enjoy reading your comments. My critique is in no way meant to be insulting. I am sure that you will take it the right way.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Reply
anonymous says:
September 8, 2014 at 10:37 am
Hi Excelsior. I am not insulted by your comment. I am not familiar with how the Catholic Church works and didn’t deliberately mean to say anything bad about them. I was only saying that we were always told how “terrible” the Catholic Church was with their cathedrals and such and how different we were because our Kingdom Halls were “simple” and plain and to me, the Governing Body is resorting to the same things to attract “customers” just like the churches of Christendom do. I only mentioned the Catholic Church as an aside.
Reply
PureStrongheart says:
September 8, 2014 at 11:05 am
@Excelsior and anonymous: The Witnesses have had an anti-Rome rhetoric that has carried on as long as their history and has been a time honoured cornerstone of Protestant practice going back to the start of the Reformation. Protestants took over Catholic houses of worship and ripped out all the art work (images=idolatry) in favour of a more austere setting. JW’s took it a step further by eschewing stained glass and everything else besides a year text and pot of flowers.
Witnesses then went on to lampoon the Protestant “mega churches” and their showmanship and grand standing.
Excelsior, THIS I believe is what anonymous is roasting, the same as Cedars: the complete reversal and aping of what the WT Society formerly castigated. Pop music and dance on the podium, as well as corny oversized props formerly labeled as “undignified,” “wordly,” “detracting from the all important work of kingdom preaching.”
Reply
PureStrongheart says:
September 8, 2014 at 11:10 am
PS. MAYBE it is a bit of a Korean thing. Having visited Korea briefly, I couldn’t help but notice a penchant for karaoke, as well as many older folk wearing head to toe colourful “hiking outfits” to match their husband/wife.
HOWEVER, it does fit in with the global JayDub milieu developing of podium line dancing and convention brick a brack.
Reply
Brother David says:
September 8, 2014 at 10:30 pm
First let me say I’m no longer a JW. I disassociated myself around 5 years ago. I don’t think it’s productive to point out the hypocrisies of JWs. All religions are hypocritical. My comments about JWs having fun and enjoying life were about Cedars thinking it was hypocritical to have dancing, line dancing, and other entertainment at assemblies or at the Kingdom Hall. Who cares!? It’s not important. So what. Are we going to get all bent out of shape about seeing an elder at a 5 star restaurant or driving a new Mercedes Benz and report that as being hypocritical? I hope not. If we do, it only makes us look petty. People aren’t going to decide whether to join JWs on such reports. People will think twice about things like shunning, blood transfusion refusal, discouragement of going to college, discouragement of associating with non-JWs, policies that let pedophiles get away, etc… Those are the things that make JWs a bad religion, not that they have Bible pools for baptism. BTW, I think the Bible pools is brilliant marketing. No doubt they got a lot of local press and people interested when going door-to-door ministry about that gimmick. Well worth the time and effort they spent for that gimmick in terms of generating press and a topic of conversation with the general public.
Reply
Cedars says:
September 8, 2014 at 11:20 pm
It sounds from your comment like you’re one of those many Ex-JWs who has left the organization without doing any substantial research. I find it difficult to imagine anyone thoroughly researching the organization and its history (by reading Crisis of Conscience, etc) and concluding that the Witnesses are just a “bad religion.” They are a destructive cult that turns families, the most precious commodity we humans can have, into weapons of religious control. They place children in harm’s way through their child abuse policies, and even take lives by their insistence on refusing blood.
“Bad religion?” Huh…
Please do some research Brother David. If you HAVE done research and nonetheless find it productive to troll activists like me when we point out Watchtower hypocrisy, this video’s for you…
Reply
anonymous says:
September 9, 2014 at 1:58 am
Brother David, to “old timers” like me, articles like this are very interesting to see how “liberal” the Society is becoming or at least in “appearance”. I see it as tactics to gain new and naive’ converts into believing how “liberal” we are as a group but we all know it’s only a marketing tactic for new or young ones. We all know it’s a cult and it’s just a “lure” and once you are in it and baptized, then you are faced with the real “truth” and you can’t get out. I for one, see the line dancing and Bible pools as evil “gimmicks” as you so aptly put it.
Reply
Chuck Turner says:
September 9, 2014 at 3:30 pm
Overall, I think we have to conclude that a “rebranding” is occuring. The Witnesses have done this before. If they “lighten up”, they can attain converts, then “tighten up” once they are snared. Those of us who have been at Bethel and been elders over the decades find this more interesting than recent disenchanted converts, methinks. Excellent comments.
Reply
Ted says:
September 9, 2014 at 7:33 am
Reading the selected scriptures that the W,T, uses, One would
get the impression that the Bible was a wholesome book
produced by a loving god.
But reading the whole, It contains accounts of a nation exulting
in indiscriminate slaughter of men, women, and children,
( No one left alive .) Atrocities that exceed anything that’s
going on today. And this at the direct orders of their god
Jehovah. Joshua 8/24-29.
Years ago if I was being baptised in one of those Bible baptismal
pools. I would have thought I was undergoing something
spiritually cleansing. But now it would be like stepping into a
pool of poison.
It’ s wise to get the complete picture, especially before making
a life long commitment.
Reply
Adrian says:
September 9, 2014 at 1:28 pm
Gotta say that the singing and dancing was pretty poor, I would be embarrassed if I were a JW . They could have at least arranged for professional singers with all the money they have and at least put on a decent show . If I were an international delegate I would have considered it an insult 😉
Reply
Hyperion says:
September 9, 2014 at 3:38 pm
:)
When I was at Bethel in an East European country, one of the branch committee members used to say that when he is having fun, he reads the Bible from a different perspective…
Reply
Art Fern says:
September 9, 2014 at 7:05 pm
I don’t want to step on anybody’s toes, but my first thought on seeing the BibleFonts was that it showed the same type of megalomania that you see in Central Africa when they build huge caskets in the shape of Mercedes, 747 aircraft, or even a 16′ foot long 4′ wide ear of corn for a wealthy farmer’s final place of eternal rest.
I have to come to Mr. Cedars defense, to note that a group which has tried so hard to take the fun out of childhood, married intimate relations and such, has made an abrupt left turn, in practice, to now encourage adult silliness, and personally I LOVE SILLINESS and FUN. To go off on the most incredibly fair and generous guy I know, for pointing out the left turn is dishonest and a bit pompously arrogant. I like this direction that JW.com seems to be going, maybe they can drop all the punishing rules such as forced shunning or those that kill as in banning blood transfusions and breaking up families. Ya think?
Reply
Art Fern says:
September 9, 2014 at 7:17 pm
Thank you Ted for beating the same drum I have been banging for years. It seems that so many Biblical semi-experts manage to ignore all the frivolous pain and death brought about by this temperamental God, who Loves Us All. How can you blame the big guy for rewarding Jacob and son’s for their masterful trickery in ordering all the men in the city to undergo circumcision to then kill the men rolling in pain and their animals, and then kidnap all the women. Of course he killed 70,000 Israelites because their leader David, took a census, and then the real funny one causing a wall to fall killing 20,000 Syrians.
I fail to see how we can become so conditioned to ignore the horror to then worship this god, but we have all been at some time. Tragic
Reply
I Want To Believe....I Just Can't! says:
September 9, 2014 at 8:30 pm
You said it best when you said they have thrown out Kingdom Hall decorum and allowing worldly music and country line dancing (something talked against when it was popular back in the 80’s) Maybe the jw.org thinks that some of us who were in the org in the 80’s have severe memory loss and have forgotten what we were taught back then mainly that the internet was baaad, worldly music and dancing was baaaad, and all forms of recreation were baaaad! What I don’t understand is why so many witnesses are able to play instruments and learn these worldly songs when all along the society has said not to waste time in pursuits that take away from serving Jehovah. I swear there is a secret society among Jehovah witnesses where it is OK to flout the rules that apply to everyone else! These are probably Elders and their families because we know they are never publicly reproved and get away with so much more than the average publisher!
Reply
I Want To Believe....I Just Can't! says:
September 9, 2014 at 8:32 pm
They certainly would have not made it on The Voice or any other show like that!
Reply
I Want To Believe....I Just Can't! says:
September 9, 2014 at 8:41 pm
But the singing and dancing are important to those of us who were condemned years ago for doing EXACTLY what is being done in Kingdom Halls today with this singing and dancing routine. So it matters a lot! It was drilled in our heads for YEARS that worldly music is of Satan. Many of us have had to throw out our own music because it was worldly. I shudder when I think of the music I had to get rid of in order to serve Jehovah. Much of the music I got rid of was no worse than what is being sung at the KH today with these “parties” being put on for the conventions. I think about weddings and how so many couples chose NOT to have music at their wedding because of the worldliness of it. I think about my own wedding and how we agonized over the music so that it didn’t offend anyone. I think about those who have stopped listening to music altogether because of the societies direction on music and how it is satanic. It matters VERY VERY much especially to anyone who has been in the org for 20, 30 years or longer!
Reply
Patrice says:
September 10, 2014 at 1:47 am
My recollection of bygone days are
Then: The kingdom hall was to be used for pure worship. Weddings and Funerals. Music was to be tasteful and so was attire worn in the hall.
Now: Kingdom halls are being used for dancing and singing.
Wedding dresses are inappropriately skimpy.
Then: Recreation should be family orientated, after putting Kingdom interests first. Large gathering are not recommended. Parties and Disco are definatly no no’s
Now: Young people meet up in large crowds at the pub. Centre Parcs is a favorite for large gatherings of young people and families. Parties are going on all the time in the form of BBQ’s down the beach, fancy dress, whole crowds meeting together to listen and dance to bands that have formed.
Then: The internet was a place to avoid, in case the mind becomes infected by this tool of the devil.
Now: Facebook and such is the place to be. The stuff the kids discuss on fb leave me cold. Look at photo’s that the young ones put up. So very many have drink in their hands.
Internet is now encouraged, but only to look at jw.org…yeah right.
Then: Elders and MS should be of sound mind, mature spiritual men.
Now: Once these experienced mature elders, with good old school training reach 60, do away with them. Elders are youngers these days.
So what on earth is happening. And does it really matter. Well yes it does. Because all the “then” rules still apply. I have not seen any watchtower saying all the “then rules are now obsolete. (Apart from it being ok to look at jw.org)
So rules are being broken, and I have to say this is now a young persons organisation, being run by young people who ignore the GB and just get on with their own set of rules.
Reply
anonymous says:
September 10, 2014 at 2:11 am
Hi Patrice. I think this making of huge Bible pools, may just be a “Korean” thing because maybe there, they just like going all out for things like this but since it’s been posted online, I see it as “taking off” all over the world as the “thing to do”, maybe next year and on and on.
I am torn as whether it’s the younger crowd just “doing their own thing” like the line dancing but from what I gather, it’s the Governing Body, encouraging such a thing, in which case it’s “old farts” having a “sinister” plan in all this.
I only wished it was the younger set, deciding what they want and don’t want but I very much doubt it. I see it as a “trap” to entice the younger crowd into something that they think will be a “fun” organization but I don’t see any way the Society can change it’s policy on shunning disassociated ones. If it was the younger crowd taking over, then maybe they might decide that they won’t listen when it comes to shunning and maybe if an underground understanding can take over like that, the Society would either crumble or change.
The younger crowd does have a lot of power but they are taught by the older, completely indoctrinated crowd who will follow the shunning rules, even if it means that they will shun their own children and grandchildren. Once that child is baptized, they are a really bad position. Go against what they have been taught and get shunned or go along and fit in.
It’s only after they get baptized is when they see the real underbelly and not before. Those dances at the Kingdom Hall are only an evil “lure”. I am absolutely convinced of it. And it’s coming straight from the top, I am also convinced of.
Reply
anonymous says:
September 10, 2014 at 2:17 am
Hi Patrice again. I remember maybe 8 years ago when everyone was going on to the Society’s website and printing out all the scriptures being used for the book study and Watchtower instead of looking them up and everyone was printing it out and reading off their printed pages and the Society said not to do it. We were to look up the scriptures instead in the Bible and not to bring those print outs to the meetings. Do you remember that? Now they are bringing their little computers to the meetings and reading everything off their little computers for everything and the Society says it’s okay to do it from the platform! Talk about hypocrites. As long as the Governing Body says it’s okay, then it’s okay. If anybody on the Governing Body needed a transfusion, I wonder if the policy would change or maybe none of us would ever know?
Reply
KateWild says:
September 10, 2014 at 3:42 am
I think these baptism pools are a colossal waste of money. How much in contributions was wasted producing them and how often are they actually going to be used?
The time an effort taken to produce them would certainly outweigh the regularity of use. They are just not required.
Cedars, do we have a figure for the number of baptism candidates?
Kate xx
Reply
Excelsior says:
September 10, 2014 at 3:45 am
Folks,
The WTBTS will do anything it can to maximise its profits. Rules are never applied equally to all, we all know that.
If bible shaped baptism pools bring in more converts then expect them at every Convention.
The point about older ones is very valid. I wonder what percentage of JWs are of the “1975” generation now? Even if they are still around, as soon as they get too old, they lose all responsibility and influence in the congregation.
If the WTBTS wants to continue its multi billion dollar business it needs new converts, and many more than can be bred by the poor Sisters. So, if music works, do it. If dancing works, do it. Etc etc
I am extremely sceptical of the WTBTS stopping its shunning policy. They try to hide it from those outside the Organisation and they will continue to find new ways to do so.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Reply
Interrogative? says:
September 10, 2014 at 6:27 am
Are the seven princes or dukes (make your choice !), I mean the seven GB Members who are “already sitting on their heavenly thrones”, are they really able to manage financially such a dollar multi-millionaire corporation as the WT?
Besides harping on about the same things again and again ( I was about to forget the new heavenly lights) to the ears of their so much beloved co-dometics all over the world , after having got them to accept a contractual enslavement through a water bath in pools (without or with a bible shape), yes, I am asking : besides that, what are the seven “holy ones” (hem!) really able to do ?
To lead financially a Corporation like the WT that is running on billions of dollars, there is a need of seasoned businessmen. Nobody can already be sitting on a heavenly throne and at the same time act as a seasoned businessmen.
Where do the WT seasoned businessmen of the WT hide themselves? Or are the seven WT Governing Members in reality mere seasoned businessmen and nothing more, like Pastor Russel and Judge Rutherford were in their time ? With much arrogance mixed with a veneer of biblical culture ?
Reply
David says:
September 10, 2014 at 6:55 am
Can you imagine Jesus being baptised in a scroll shaped pool?
Obviously there are worse things in this world but for sure that is not a respectful form of worship.
There are dozens of scriptures that command God’s people to give to the poor (not leaving it only to the authorities) but JWs and other america cults thinks is better to keep the extra cash to finance their propaganda.
They are doing all their best to sell their product with the convention super advertising but being Christian is about being free, being accountable only to God. When people join these cults give up their freedom for a piece of blue sky.
If you respect God you do not teach ever changing human ideas and interpretations as truths. If people follow this approach following a religion is completely a waste of time.
Reply
E3 says:
September 12, 2014 at 6:17 am
I just found a video produced by JWs that demonstrates how far under mind control they are, and that makes the large bibles look mild. This video was made by JWs and tells the story of someone publishing during the “Millions now living will never die” campaign of the early 20s. The result is that a young husband who lost his wife and is raising their 2 young daughters is contacted, listens to the message about the resurrection, and the family all become witnesses. At the end of the video, we see the 2 young girls, now very elderly, showing pictures to their JW friends and family. Nobody seems to get the fact that the man died waiting several decades for the promised resurrection, which was supposed to come at any time. In fact, you hear the audience clapping when this man becomes a witness. If they applaud the way that family was so blatantly defrauded and duped, they truly are fast asleep. Here is the address of the video.
Reply
Searcher says:
September 12, 2014 at 8:25 am
This again doesn’t suprise me at all after understanding the motivations of the WTBTS. This cult (aka religion) has always had a sales-like pitch with everything. This just looks like props at a sales convention to ‘wow’ the audience. SELL SELL SELL as Rutherford once said.
Reply
Chuck Turner says:
September 12, 2014 at 10:55 am
Sell, sell, sell, indeed. Spend decades selling this religion (aka cult) and you should be able to sell anything. :)
Reply
Ted says:
September 12, 2014 at 3:57 pm
E3
Interesting video, funny in places, especially as the guy with
phonograph looked like Harold Lloyd the silent movie actor.
Tragic though, the man living in hope of seeing his wife
resurrected, but dying himself without the hope being realised.
That point failed to register with the applauding J,W’s .
As we. know thousands have and are still dying, lives ending in
dissappointment . My sister, a J,W, for 55 years, died recently
from Pancreatic Cancer, I went to see her in the hospice and
her words to me were, “Who would have thought I would end
up here.?
Barren hopes, How can people keep falling for the same lies that
were on that old phonograph ? I think that when one becomes a
J,W, emotion takes over and reason is abandoned, That’s why
it’s nigh impossible to reason with them, they don’t do it any more.
Reply
Excelsior says:
September 13, 2014 at 1:54 am
Interrogative?,
The WTBTS has a plethora of different corporations, and nome of them have been officially run by GB members since around the year 2000, I think. There are articles on Wikapaedia that go into the different corps.
There are faceless men who run all the corporations so that the GB can be “volunteers” and not be personally sued for their decisions.
Theocracy, it seems, is all well and good. But when it eats into profits? Well, then it’s time to appoint men behind the scenes to run this multi billion dollar property empire!
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Reply
Interrogative? says:
September 13, 2014 at 4:00 am
Excelsior,
Surely there is a lot of information regarding Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania to glean on Wikipedia that offers so many references (153). I think it will be a new field of research for me, an opportunity to make some pauses between my classical piano training. And surely an help to increase my knowledge of English. Thank you.
Reply
millwallandrew says:
September 13, 2014 at 5:13 am
i think the so-called “brother” got it all wrong…go study the history of JWz..then u’ll be in a better position to yap anything u want.
Reply
JBob says:
September 13, 2014 at 6:00 pm
The high-and-mighty opinion that all-things Watchtower must dominate conversation remains as it ever was. I recall casual gatherings where the air of conversation was saturated with talk about the latest and greatest products and trends from Watchtower HQ, not to mention latest seminar talks, if a Sunday after-meeting-dinner. Reading extra-curricula literature and magazines without a Watchtower copyright was deemed far over the line by many, while others dabbled in a few news-centered magazines and most ethnic JW’s smuggled in an ethnicity magazine or two. I remember my awakening when a scholarly critique of a research paper revealed my bias of material from Watchtower HQ [what?? isn’t this where the teacher praises me for my Jehovah’s Witness views extracted from literature instead of encyclopedias?]. I rewrote the paper, which naturally took a more objective turn, after including more objective, and opposing viewpoints on the subject matter.
And, let’s get real–is building an inflatable or automated, opening larger-than-life “bible” equal to a night on the Las Vegas strip or Riviera? A fun night of nailing and gluing boards together versus dinner and drinks with unconditional-love dispensing friends?
2014 – 1844 = 170 years and counting…
Reply
Warren says:
September 15, 2014 at 10:41 pm
What gets me is that i come from a generation where fun was frowned upon, it was all very strict etc, what i beleive is happening is they are trying to attract a new generation, using web sites etc, we even had a recent CO encourage us to preach to the foreign workers & young people, get a tablet & use that in the door to door work, you get the feeling that they want the old to go away, look at all the new study aids, they are all soft & cuddley, no serious doctrine anymore, look at all the recent sudy articles, no meat for the long term JW, i find it quite boring actually, the best thing about having a tablet at the meeting is surfing the net, remeber the days when they frowned upon using lap tops, as they distract, i do think those pools are ridiculous though.
Reply
Jimmy says:
September 17, 2014 at 4:34 am
“…what subjects do you prefer to see me write about?”
Now that’s a tough one…
What about money? How much money do you make from your website and YouTube channel? You could perhaps reveal the secrets behind ‘successful’ campaigning, and how to turn a hateful obsession into filthy lucre.
There must be plenty of scope to talk about the entrepreneurial aspects of producing endless pettifogging articles and videos. Trash into treasure, that sort of thing.
There you go-that’s my suggestion. Hope it helps.
Reply
Cedars says:
September 17, 2014 at 5:21 am
My YouTube channel turns in $50 to $60 per month to my Google adsense account – not bad, but hardly a king’s ransom.
Every now and then I receive PayPal donations on JWsurvey. The smallest I’ve received is $1, the most is $1,000. It all goes through my business and gets churned into making the site successful, or helps cover my regular business costs. I pay corporation tax on all proceeds as business income. Due to donations I’ve recently been able to upgrade my computer and video-making equipment. We’ve also just completed a 5-month, $1,000 dollar adwords trial campaign to place ads for the site on Google (which brought an extra 9,000 unique visits to JWsurvey). So rather than this being a huge money spinner, any money I receive gets ploughed straight into helping JWs like you out of their indoctrination.
Now that I’ve answered your questions, will you be answering the “Cedars Challenge?”
Reply
anonymous says:
September 17, 2014 at 7:33 am
Cedars, We love what you have done here and you deserve $1,000 donations all the time and nothing less. You have saved many lives through your efforts. With $1.00 donations, at least they want to help with the effort.
Reply
Cedars says:
September 17, 2014 at 7:41 am
Thanks. I should add that all donations are helpful, even the small ones! :)
Reply
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Millions are oblivious to the preaching work, but “there is no need for us to be overly concerned” →
Bible-shaped baptism pools take center stage at the South Korea international convention
avatar
Posted on September 6, 2014
Baptismal candidates at the South Korea international convention symbolized their dedication in giant bibles
Baptismal candidates at the South Korea international convention symbolized their dedication in giant bibles
Photos have been released online showing a curious arrangement of bible-shaped baptism pools at the recent 2014 international convention in South Korea.
It is unclear precisely who made the “bible pools,” or how much time and expense was invested in their construction. What is certain is that they were a prominent feature at the Watchtower-sponsored event.
The bizarre structures seem to have doubled-up as elaborate props for announcing the release of the revised New World Translation in Korean.
The video below shows volunteers removing a black cover from one of the giant bibles to reveal the latest silver design against a backdrop of applause.
bible-pools10665651_1498881360357265_785440483_n
This website has already noted the extraordinary lengths Watchtower is now going to in promoting their international conventions. The rulebook regarding kingdom hall decorum has been thrown out the window, with big-spending delegates entertained by ‘worldly’ music, and even line dancing, by some congregations. Souvenirs and trinkets are also becoming the latest craze, with the JW.org logo assuming a prominence on badges, bracelets and pendants that would have been considered idolatrous a few years ago.
As the organization continues to depart from its more austere traditions and encourage a frenzy surrounding its website and promoting the JW.org brand, those of my generation (and previous generations) will be left scratching their heads at the apparent hypocrisy of it all. If Armageddon is truly imminent, due to strike at any moment, and warning people of this mass slaughter is the primary occupation of Witnesses, why is it proper to spend so much time, energy and resources constructing giant bible-shaped stage props?
new-cedars-signature2
Further reading…
◾Convention gimmicks, trinkets and souvenirs…
◾Partying in the kingdom hall…
◾“Get ready for the time of your life!”…
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124 Responses to Bible-shaped baptism pools take center stage at the South Korea international convention
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anonymous says:
September 17, 2014 at 11:01 am
Cedars, the difference between you and the org is that you are upfront and they are not. We love that about you!!
Reply
JimmyG says:
September 18, 2014 at 3:18 am
To Cedars. I want to make it clear that I am not this ‘Jimmy’. That’s why I put a ‘G’ on the end
Reply
Excelsior! says:
September 18, 2014 at 3:34 am
Jimmy,
Thankyou for your comment regarding the financing of JW Survey. It is important for us to reassure ourselves that John Cedars is not buying yachts and penthouses on our donations.
I wonder if you know what the WTBTS spends its BILLIONS of dollars on every year?
I wonder which articles you have been reading? I have not read a “hateful obsession” article here and I do not believe that John converts any monies he receives “into filthy lucre.”
How is exposing the disgusting child protection policy of the WTBTS a “hateful obsession”?
How is exposing the domestic violence cover ups a “hateful obsession”?
How is highlighting the emotional and psychological harm of the WTBTS’ shunning policy a “hateful obsession”?
These are genuine questions, Jimmy. I would very much like to read your answers. Only through open, honest and polite debate will we be able to move forward together.
If you are a religious person, doesn’t the bible tell us to hate what is bad? God does. Jesus does.
We must hate the bad that people do, not the people themselves.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Reply
married to a JW says:
September 18, 2014 at 4:08 am
Well Said Excelsior! I just want to add one other thing. I don’t think Cedars even ever asks for donations. I’ve been reading this blog for years and didn’t even know that donations could be made. (The watchtower was asking for donations and free labor even after collecting over 1 BILLION dollars from real estate sales) Anyway
, now I found the web site and made a donation. He can use it for whatever he wants. Maybe his baby needs new shoes. Jesus says the worker deserves wages.
Reply
Cedars says:
September 18, 2014 at 5:51 am
Thank you very much indeed for the kind donation, married-to-a-JW – very much appreciated!
I don’t like to make a big deal of the money side of the website. I like the idea of it always being a free resource where visitors aren’t bugged to part with cash, but can do so if they wish to help out. I do intend for my activism to eventually become my career, but I see my yet-to-be-published book as the main vehicle for that – not this site.
Reply
anonymous says:
September 19, 2014 at 4:00 am
Hi Cedars. I was googling how many books to make the best seller’s list and it’s about 1,000 books sold the first week on Amazon. We can help boost the sale of your book. There are so many people who want to help bring down the Watchtower and we can all get together when your books is released and force the world to take notice. If 1,000 people could buy just one book or 100 people buy 10 books we can force the world to sit up and take notice and there are thousands of us out here who are willing to do that to bring down the Org. If your book becomes a best seller, more and more people will be interested in buying it and it’s a way to force the rank and file to see what the world knows about them that they themselves don’t know. You have the perfect avenue on your youtube channel and your web site to promote it.
Reply
Cedars says:
September 19, 2014 at 4:15 am
Thanks so much anonymous, I do appreciate your enthusiasm. However, I believe the success of the book rests on my shoulders and no one else’s. Part of the reason it’s taking so long is because I want to make a good job of it. I know if I release a book just for the sake of it lots of people will buy it, but I want to write a book that even non-JWs and active JWs will want to buy because they’ve heard good things about it. Ultimately it’s down to me to make sure it all works out. I would never ask anyone to share that burden with me.
Reply
anonymous says:
September 19, 2014 at 5:24 am
When it comes out, it will be good, I know it. It’s better to be a book that is really good and will appeal to the masses and you are right to take your time and do it the way it will have the best effect. Thank you so much for telling us that you are working on it. I was hoping for it and it makes me sooooo happy to know it that it’s in the works!!!! But, still when you do come out with it, we can help to push the sales because there’s so many of us behind you in the cause.
Reply
anonymous says:
September 19, 2014 at 6:52 am
Cedars, are there any old books that you could use in your research that you don’t have such as Light Vol. 1 by Rutherford, Children by Rutherford, The finished Mystery or The time is at Hand? I am also getting Watchtower bound volumes from 1951 to 59 and 61-64 that I can send to you and I’d pay for the postage so you wouldn’t have to worry about that. I also have a lot of the books from the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s that you can have too if it helps.
Reply
anonymous says:
September 19, 2014 at 6:57 am
I forgot. I also have Government by Rutherford if you can use it.
Reply
joe says:
September 22, 2014 at 1:05 am
What a hater. Who cares if they had bible shaped pools. And who cares if that’s not how you think they should be spending their money. My dad thinks video games are a massive waste of money. I don’t agree with him. How many people go to fake plastic Disney land for $100 a day now. I think that’s a waste of money. What about comicon or star trek conventions? You must think you are the smartest person alive to think every single person at these conventions are idiots. How arrogant.
Reply
Cedars says:
September 22, 2014 at 1:07 am
“You must think you are the smartest person alive to think every single person at these conventions are idiots.”
Your only way of attacking me is to put words in my mouth? Interesting.
Reply
joe says:
September 22, 2014 at 1:25 am
Do you know what the WTBTS spends its money on? I was just wondering. Last I saw was those old men eating every day with the rest of their oh so easily brainwashed converts. I even saw one of those old men who tricks all of these mentally incapable persons, separating hangers in the watchtower laundry sitting in the corner with a paper food service hat on. But I know they secretly fly off in their private jets to their opulent penthouses and estates that they bought with all of their donation money. They MUST be whooping it up living the good life. Oh yeah the US government must be in on it too since real estate records are public access, we would know where the governing body members secret mansions are but they are nowhere to be found. My god they have simple rooms at bethel but I heard they really have underground lairs made out of pure gold where they count each and every donated penny those sick old men. Down with the Org!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply
joe says:
September 22, 2014 at 1:27 am
Well apparently they need to be woken up. They are to simple to realize they are being conned right? Seems to be the gist of it
Reply
Cedars says:
September 22, 2014 at 1:32 am
joe, please answer my response to you on the Brett King thread, which explains undue influence. If you can’t answer my question (regarding the Cedars Challenge), and have a meaningful dialogue with me or others, then I will assume you’re simply here to spam us with your ignorance and I will block you accordingly. I work too hard on this site to hand it over to indoctrinated JW kids who don’t know their organization or its history, and can’t be bothered to do any research.
Reply
joe says:
September 22, 2014 at 1:42 am
But its OK for YOU to attack the beliefs of all of these people? You really want to take away the one thing that means so much to many of these people because you feel it is not right? Because your dad is shunning you? Isn’t that his choice as sucky as it is? What if I succeeded in getting Disneyland shut down because I absolutely dislike their horrible TV shows, would that be fair? My nephews and nieces only want to go there and they love it. I would rather go snowboarding and I feel Disneyland is disgusting but that doesn’t make me right. People have free will to believe what they want and live how they live. How arrogant of you to spend all of your time tearing down something millions of ‘deluded’ obviously love. You don’t like their brand of Christianity, then move on. You think they are doing potentially dangerous things, that’s their choice. They only thing the government should intervene in on is blood transfusion, but its funny how many cutting edge hospitals are opting for bloodless procedures.
Reply
Cedars says:
September 22, 2014 at 1:46 am
Again, you’re ignoring my reply to you on the Brett King thread, in which I said that either the Witness faith is true or it isn’t. If the Witness faith isn’t true, then it is harmful, because it is tearing apart families like mine through shunning for no good reason, and even killing people through needless adherence to the blood doctrine. If, on the other hand, it is true – please enlighten us by answering my Cedars Challenge below.
Reply
joe says:
September 22, 2014 at 1:58 am
You can think of much better ways to have fun….wow. These poor people just need you to fill the giant funless void in their stupid little lives. If you had your way you would probably force everyone to live how you do. Incredible the arrogance.
Reply
Cedars says:
September 22, 2014 at 2:03 am
Ok, this is getting silly. Despite repeated requests to prove the JW faith true by answering the Cedars Challenge, your answer seems to be “la la, I can’t hear you.”
I feel sorry for you, joe, and I hope you one day realize that you are in a damaging cult that wants to suck all the time, energy, money and potential from you without giving you anything in return but empty promises. Hopefully one day you will wake up, or at least be willing to have an adult discussion, and you will then be welcome to drop me an email and start commenting again. Until then, I won’t have you spamming us with your ignorance rather than participating in a meaningful dialogue and responding to questions that are asked of you. Take care.
Reply
anonymous says:
September 22, 2014 at 2:10 am
Joe, how old are you? I stuck up for the “truth” for 48 years of my 68 years of life, thinking it was the truth but something I can’t abide is the disfellowshipping of Carl Olof Jonsson who was an elder and pioneer for many years because he proved to the Society with 17 separate lines of evidence that Jerusalem was destroyed by the Babylonians in 586/587 because he “ran ahead” of the Organization but all the Society has to go on is as “Let Your Kingdom Come” published by the Society in 1981 from page 187 in the appendix
“even if the discovered evidence is accurate, it might be misinterpreted by modern scholars or be incomplete so that yet undiscovered material could drastically alter the chronology of the period.”
The Watchtower religion would crumble and fall tomorrow if it was proved that Jerusalem was destroyed in 585/586 and they have ZERO EVIDENCE FOR FOR 607. That is why Carol Olof Jonsson was disfellowshipped. How can you defend that??????
Reply
Excelsior says:
September 22, 2014 at 2:20 am
Joe,
If anyone is doing “potentially dangerous things” don’t you think that a good citizen would be concerned about that?
Indeed, the “dangerous things” aren’t even “potential”, are they?
I think that denying children justice and concealing child sexual abuse through the two witness rule is a “dangerous thing”. Further, I think it is truly a disgusting thing!
Joe, you are right, people can choose to do what they wish to do. But when what they choose to do harms others, then it is right and proper for their behaviour to be challenged and sanctioned if necessary.
I do not hate Jehovah’s Witnesses. I pity them. I comment on this site to help and encourage others to learn the truth about their religion and make an informed choice as to what they will do with that knowledge.
I hope that you will think carefully and freely about what you have learned and I wish you well in your journey of discovery.
Peace be with you
Excelsior!
Reply
joe says:
September 22, 2014 at 2:24 am
OK, you’ve misunderstood me. I’m not concerned if anyone believes if the witness faith is true or not. Everyone is entitled to their own belief. I wasn’t even trying to come to your site to begin with. The majority of my family are catholic and Mormon. I also have a lot of friends who are Buddhist and even atheist. I respect your belief or non belief. I just find it incredible that a person such as yourself, who looks like a tolerant person can so passionately seek the demise of an organization that means so much to many people. I don’t agree with most of the things Mormons and catholics do but I wouldnt spend my time trying to force others to do what I think is right. Besides, you won’t succeed anyway. Maybe make yourself look more presentable and take your video in front of a solid clean wall instead of looking like a vagrant in front of some beat up brick and mortar wall and screen door. How is anyone to take you seriously. If you are dead set on doing this then at least look presentable or the people with clout that you really want to help you may be turned off by your appearance.
Reply
joe says:
September 22, 2014 at 2:48 am
Now you look silly. I’m not trying to prove the witness faith right. You fingers are in your ears maybe because you know that everyone has a right to believe what they want yet you are so bitter that you want the demise of this horrible cult. You arrogantly assert that all of these people are to stupid to realize the danger they are in and so need to be woken up. I guess I am just a naive construction engineer. I don’t know but its funny though, that a few old white men can keep 8 million people around the world on the same page studying the same watchtower with all of its lies and changes and contradictions with that sorcery of theirs. And as much as you would like to tell your blog readers that more and more witnesses are leaving, there are also way more witnesses now than when I was a kid 35 years ago. And yes I do enjoy video games and star trek
Reply
Kyle says:
September 24, 2014 at 4:14 pm
Look what they actually even made..
http://seouldelegates.org/video/
Reply
Jeannie Krusche says:
October 1, 2014 at 10:14 am
married to a JW – I thought that is a lovely suggestion about donations, maybe his daughter needs new shoes and yes, the worker deserves wages!
Reply
Chris Benson says:
October 29, 2014 at 3:58 am
This is an estimate and my estimate is that Watchtower have a minimum weekly income of 140 million dollars per week coming in to them via worldwide donations. I Come to this conclusion because there are 7million active publishers some poor, some wealthy, some middle of the road. So im saying that an average donation is maybe $20. Apart from this they are continuosly having peoples estates left to them etc.
It would really be nice what really actually is happening to all this money where is it actually going
Reply
Chris Benson says:
October 29, 2014 at 4:05 am
Is there any possible way that the finances of this organisation can be investigated as it would really be nice to know the truth of the matter. Has it ever been taken up before?
It really does need to be addressed as they are getting away with all this money just scamming people?
Reply
Gareth says:
October 29, 2014 at 5:14 am
If you don’t have the finances, how do you know it’s a money scam? And where is the $20 guess based on? Per week, really? Maybe per month (per household?), but people also donate for their local congregation maintenance etc. And in most groups, donations of the rich are relatively little versus the many small donations of the average Joe. People simply cannot be pioneering *and* donating lots of money.
I’d also like to know the finances, but random assumptions aren’t helping anyone. As there are indications that the organisation needs to save (branch closures, shorter conventions)… You shouldn’t draw conclusions this quickly without facts.
Reply
Chuck Turner says:
October 29, 2014 at 9:54 am
Religions equal $$$
Reply
J somebody says:
December 12, 2014 at 1:45 pm
Cedars.
I happened upon your website, spent a few minutes checking out your stuff. But I couldnt leave without letting you know how I feel. If you think the witnesses are spreading false information and deceiving others through their works, I’d say you need to take a bold and honest look in the mirror. Soooo many of your claims are off base, and it’s not fair to the people who give their entire lives to try and help others simply to know the truth about the bible.
If you feel a moral obligation to share “the truth” with your readers, then pay a visit to their world headquarters in Brooklyn, NY and ask whatever questions you have. Or, for that matter just go to your local Kingdom Hall. You have a personal grief with Jehovah’s Witnesses. That’s clear. But it seems selfish and shortsighted to allow your personal feelings to cause you to spread false information to others.
Reply
Cedars says:
December 12, 2014 at 3:11 pm
J somebody – allow me to give you a warm welcome to JWsurvey! Thank you for your frank and heartfelt comments.
You will be thrilled to learn that there is a simple way to have this website, and my “John Cedars” YouTube channel, wiped from the internet forever. All you need to do is answer the fairly simple “Cedars’ Challenge” in this video. Since you have already expressed your firm belief that Jehovah’s Witnesses have “the truth” you should find it relatively straightforward and succeed where others have, well… not even tried! I look forward to receiving your response! :)
Reply
anonymous says:
December 12, 2014 at 6:35 pm
@ J somebody. I see you only spent a few minutes checking out Cedars’ website and if you spent some quality time here, you would see that it’s set up so that all of us Witnesses and ex-witnesses have a voice, which the Watchtower Society doesn’t give us.
Most of us commenting here, have been Witnesses for many, many years and speak with the unique experience of being in the “truth” for a very long time.
Being in the Watchtower religion, you must be familiar with the secrecy that we all must maintain if we are to be in good standing. That means that no matter how much we have been hurt by some experience in our lives, we can’t talk about it to anybody.
For most of us, it was a godsend to find this web site where we could talk about our experiences and find out that we weren’t alone in our pain. Being able to talk about it here, is the only way that most of us have of expressing ourselves and it helps us to know that others that have had the same experiences and can help each other out to keep our heads above water and survive.
Being in the “truth” for many years and finding out that the Society has lied to us and then not being able to talk about it to anybody else on the threat of being disfellowshipped for it, is devastating for us.
You need to check out your religion to make sure it’s really the “truth”. If you were to buy a watch and you were going to spend a lot of money on it, wouldn’t you check out the reviews of it on Amazon? What if the one that is selling you the watch tells you not to check out the reviews of the watch because the reviewers would be lying, would you buy that watch???? What about your religion? When you have a religion that forbids you to check out your religion by going on the internet to find out the “other” side or forbidding you to read books that are not favorable to the “truth” or telling you that you are forbidden to ask why different people left the “truth”, doesn’t that throw up “red flags” to you? To ask Cedars or anyone of us to go to the Kingdom Hall to ask the questions, is to go to the seller of the watch. Would you buy that watch on his say so????? Why aren’t you allowed to test out your religion???? We asked all those we studied with to do that with their religion so why aren’t we allowed to do that with our religion????
Reply
INFO says:
June 11, 2015 at 4:03 pm
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← Ashya King reported as cancer-free by parents
My response to the haters (and why I can’t always shake it off) →
Harmful beliefs – woman and her unborn child perish after she refuses a blood transfusion
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Posted on April 7, 2015
Prince of Wales Hospital in Randwick, where a Jehovah's Witness woman and her child have died due to the blood policy
Prince of Wales Hospital in Randwick, where a Jehovah’s Witness woman and her child have died due to the blood policy
Is there such a thing as a lifesaving blood transfusion? To some that may seem like a silly question, but it’s something many Jehovah’s Witnesses are skeptical about. Section 4 of their new “history” book mentions the concept while talking about parental custody battles involving non-believing parents:
“The non-Witness parent may petition a court for custody of the child or children so that he or she can control their religious upbringing. Some allege that being raised as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses is harmful. They may contend that the children will be deprived of birthday celebrations, holiday festivities and, in the event of a medical emergency, a ‘lifesaving’ blood transfusion. Thankfully, most courts consider what is in the best interests of the child instead of judging whether they consider the religion of one parent to be harmful.”
In my time as an online activist I have encountered many Watchtower apologists, and their arguments on this topic are always very similar. First, they say it’s their unalienable right to be able to decide to refuse a medical treatment, even if it means their own demise. Second, they say there are most likely better options. In my experience, it’s almost impossible for them to admit the existence of scenarios where a blood transfusion is the only logical option. This mentality is mirrored by the above quote’s use of quotation marks around the term “lifesaving” which are often used as a form of mockery.
Yet, on April 6th 2015 a seven-months pregnant woman in Sydney Australia, and her baby, died due to the mother’s refusal of a blood transfusion. The account of her case had this to say following the tragedy:
“Refusal of a lifesaving intervention by an informed patient is generally well respected, but the right of a mother to refuse such interventions on behalf of her fetus is more controversial…”
Rather than responsibly addressing the clear ethical dilemma that their religious policy creates, Watchtower would rather question the premise altogether and hide behind religious freedom.
The real question, that demands an answer, is whether or not someone’s religion can actually be considered harmful to themselves or others. The answer to this riddle has far-reaching implications, because if it were true any legal systems established to mitigate harm would need to account for it.
Between a rock and a hard place
Many people would argue that this woman was simply exercising her rights. For instance, Sascha Callaghan, an expert in ethics and law at the University of Sydney, said this about the situation:
“This woman had a long-held commitment to the Jehovah’s Witness faith and that’s how she chose to die.”
What Dr Callaghan isn’t factoring into her assessment is the religious coercion that the woman was subjected to. She fails to mention that Jehovah’s Witnesses can be expelled from their organization and severely ostracized for unrepentantly accepting a lifesaving blood transfusion. That’s the reality that this poor woman was violently thrust into. She could save her own and her child’s life, but she could lose her life in a different way altogether.
Clearly, this kind of pressure constitutes an undue influence on the part of the religious hierarchy that is essentially governing her beliefs. It’s extremely unethical to put anyone through this dilemma, but Watchtower stubbornly clings to their destructive doctrine even as more and more avoidable deaths rack up.
Simply making blood transfusions a matter of conscience altogether would do wonders to improve this dire situation. How can one’s decision to die, or let their children die, be taken seriously when they face total ostracism if they unrepentantly choose life over death?
Scan of pages 111 and 112 of "Shepherd the Flock of God"
Scan of pages 111 and 112 of “Shepherd the Flock of God”
JW.org explicitly states that anyone they expel from their congregation they consider to be wicked. How can giving no apology for your decision to save you and your child’s life be, in any way, considered an act of wickedness?
Life and love over law
Ethics in the medical community place an extremely high value on life itself. Practices that cost life rather than save it are rightly taken very seriously due to their far-reaching repercussions.
For example, the victim’s obstetricians were said to “rarely see people die, or make a decision that will hasten death.” These practitioners were essentially forced to play a role in an avoidable death – a role that can come with negative psychological consequences.
The community in which the deaths happened was also forced to look on in horror. All of the people who value life over someone’s religious beliefs simply didn’t get a vote. Maybe one day that might change.
It’s difficult to imagine that even with a dead mother and child, a traumatized medical staff and a shocked and grieving community, the Watchtower deity is said to be looking down with happiness and approval. How could such an entity be considered the very personification of love while showing utter disregard for the sanctity of life itself?
A voice for the voiceless
Children of Jehovah’s Witness parents, born and unborn, are powerless to make medical decisions for themselves, so these are often made by their legal guardians. Yet, when the child’s life is on the line, do they have rights that protect themselves?
Dr Kidson-Gerber and her colleague Dr Amber Biscoe wrote the following in an account of the case where the woman died:
“A doctor indeed has moral obligations to both the pregnant woman, and perhaps with differing priority to the unborn fetus. Circumstances where fetal and maternal autonomy conflict, or where fetal beneficence conflicts with maternal autonomy, create challenges.”
Who speaks on behalf of the child when the mother’s medical decisions are blatantly not in the child’s best interests? The answer is: everybody. Simply put, the community that the unborn child is entering into has a vested interest in the introduction of a new citizen.
Yet, Jehovah’s Witnesses want to believe that they have a “kingdom” which is no part of this earth. They see ones who are born into their families as citizens apart. The Watchtower’s religious hierarchy wants to be able to micromanage the lives of these citizens even to the point of influencing decisions over the life and death of children, born and unborn.
The fetus who perished didn’t even have a chance to understand its vital role in the dramatic struggle between the religious and governmental powers of the day. Perhaps if enough people speak up for those who are too young to speak for themselves, they will be able to become neighbors rather than uncomfortable memories.
new-james-signature
Further reading…
◾Daily Mail: Pregnant Jehovah’s Witness and her baby die after she refused a blood transfusion, chemotherapy and a C-section due to her religious beliefs
◾Sydney Morning Herald: Pregnant Jehovah’s Witness’ decision to refuse treatment ‘harrowing’ for hospital staff after mother and baby die
◾Washington Post: Why doctors let a Jehovah’s Witness and her unborn baby die
◾Jehovah’s Witness Report article
◾JWsurvey articles on blood transfusions
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66 Responses to Harmful beliefs – woman and her unborn child perish after she refuses a blood transfusion
Newer Comments →
Mama Joy says:
April 7, 2015 at 1:55 pm
The sadness of this event is unimaginable. They are like the Aztecs, self sacrificing over blood.
If she didn’t do what they want her to do then she would lose her family and friends associating with her, while recovering with a new baby and chemo.
They are a doomsday cult, enforcing self sacrifice over twisting of scriptures.
Yet, they allow you to EAT a bloody raw steak! Something the bible actually does say not to do.
They allow you to take a blood test at a lab. Yet the bible actually does say not to spill your blood.
They are murderers, just like Charles Manson, you don’t have to be the one to pull the trigger.
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JBob says:
April 7, 2015 at 2:05 pm
So, tragic, but not an unknown issue among JWs.
This documentary film on “Selling God” is spot-on regarding the longevity and risk of life-span for being a JW due to its peculiar interpretations of the biblical and applying it to medical treatments.
“Selling God” – selling religion through the millenia [entertaining piece on how theology influences growth–from Roman Catholism’s ban on birth control, Mormon polygamy practices, to JW’s allowance of carnal fulfillment with negative policies on blood, vaccines and transplants].
And, of recent interest is this streaming-only show on cult groups (The Mole Women of Indiana), although not a carbon copy of JW’s, it does highlight how information control and training members to mentally block contrary thoughts has an impact.
http://nypost.com/2015/03/22/kimmy-schmidt-shows-the-irrelevance-of-nbc
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Jerry O Connor says:
April 7, 2015 at 2:21 pm
Hello to all.
This is too much! What has to happen before authorities step in and band this murderous cult. For indoctrinated persons there is no choice when this barbaric scenario enfolds. My daughter Julia is a seventeen year old captive of watchtower`s undue influence and I am scared. I am also angry that in this enlightened age, these murders are allowed. How many deaths constitute a holocaust? One is too many and make no mistake this is a doomsday cult. How can this happen? Are we still in the dark ages or is it that life is now cheap? Wisdom now wise with hindsight agrees that Hitler should have been stopped after Munich. What will be said about the utter failure to stop watchtower.
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Fabuloso says:
April 7, 2015 at 2:47 pm
Well!!! Another case and another lives that can be saved. I dont know in Australia but in the USA any physician will respect the decision of an adult as far as medical treatment. If she warned the doctors about his beliefs as far as blood is concerned the whole Hospital have complied with her decision. Her brothers and sisters as of this time they are saying that she expired due to her loyalty to their God. Non JW like myself have a job to do and is to pray for this organization, today there is some lifes that ended and tomorrow we dont know. One thing for a fact is that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever and we as his creatures are capable to see for our such brothers and sisters regardless of their beliefs having in mind that love exceeds faith and hope!
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D. Charles Pyle says:
April 7, 2015 at 3:01 pm
How sad. She killed her unborn child by making a decision for the child. Trouble is, the fetus would not have “eaten” the blood because most things in the blood are isolated from the fetus. Does this count the nutrients, too? And, the injunction of not eating blood had nothing to do with blood transfusions. The Watchtower is adding this meaning onto the scripture. Sadder still, there was a time when blood transfusions were allowed. A similar flip-flopping occurred with respect to organ transplants, so it isn’t surprising. Besides, all they would have to do to change this is to declare “more light” to their flock.
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James Ezell says:
April 7, 2015 at 3:54 pm
good point
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gary says:
April 7, 2015 at 3:47 pm
It’s very very sad. No doubt the Watchtower Society will hail this as a victory, another martyr for Jehovah, but is it really?
Is it really a victory if, as an organization, your holding a spiritual gun to that person’s head?
Officially Jehovah’s witnesses are taught that it is a matter for their own conscience to consider if they’ll choose to accept a blood fractions or not, my question to the Watchtower Society is this. . .how many fractions can I have at any one given time?
Of course accepting all the fractions simultaneously would constitute a whole blood transfusion, therefore a blood transfusion has to be, according to your own reasoning, a matter of conscience.
Watchtower without doubt has a responsibility in these two deaths, and even more so considering its previous stance regarding organ transplants, inoculations, and sterilisation. It is very very sad indeed and it is not to be applauded Watchtower.
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Laxie says:
April 7, 2015 at 3:52 pm
How is this not out and out murder by this woman! If you want to die fine but that baby did not even have a chance! They have got to be stopped!
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James Ezell says:
April 7, 2015 at 3:53 pm
I think the bigger issue here is that her choice was responsible for the death of her child. It is one thing for her to choice to forgo a medical procedure knowing that it very well could result in her death. This is her choice. Not so well a child unborn or not is involved.
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gary says:
April 7, 2015 at 4:10 pm
For those who may be wrestling with their conscience regarding blood transfusions, is it not correct that God allowed a man to shed his blood to save another’s life?
Considering the biblical injunction not to eat blood and its context and considering no one dies from donating blood could it be a matter of conscience?, without doubt (in my mind) the Watchtower has got the blood policy wrong.
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Sandra Shonk says:
April 7, 2015 at 4:49 pm
I am heart sick over this decision. I personally feel this is suicide and murder. Shame on the governing body. I don’t know how they sleep at night. On judgement day they will get their just reward.
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Isaac Harris says:
April 7, 2015 at 5:30 pm
As a Medical Lab Technician, I can assure you that there are, in fact, situations where only a blood transfusion will save your life. This woman had leukemia. This often leads to anemia and eventually organ shut-down due to lack of oxygen or even a heart attack as the heart labors to deliver what red cells it can to the body’s organs.
The Society treats this issue as if it’s simply a lack of sound judgment, as if doctors could save patient’s lives but can’t be bothered to use another treatment. This is just crap. Nothing, as of yet, can replace blood. Reports suggest that a British organization may have discovered a way to clone red cells, which might be acceptable to JWs. But we aren’t quite there yet. If your hemoglobin drops too low, you die. That’s it.
There are hospitals that are awfully quick to give blood transfusions. That’s true. But that doesn’t mean they aren’t necessary in life threatening situations.
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anonymous says:
April 7, 2015 at 6:08 pm
Such a waste of life for the Watchtower God.
In the “What Does the Bible Really Teach” book on page 133 on the topic of blood it quotes the Apostle Paul when it says “If we diligently fulfill this responsibility, we will be able to say, as did the apostle Paul: “I am clean from the blood of all men, for I have not held back from telling you all the counsel of God.”
Think about it. Was the apostle Paul “free from the blood of all men?” like he said about himself? This is what the Insight book Vol. 2 on page 586 under Paul, Persecution, Conversion, Early Ministry:
“The Biblical record introduces Saul, or Paul, as the “young man” at whose feet the false witnesses who stoned Christ’s disciple Stephen laid their outer garments. (Ac. 6:13; 7:58) Paul approved of the murder of Stephen and, because of misdirected zeal for tradition, began a campaign of vicious persecution against Christ’s followers. When they were to be executed, he voted against them. At the time of their trial in synagogues, he endeavored to force them to recant. He extended his persecution to cities other than Jerusalem and even procured written authorization from the high priest to search out disciples of Christ as far N as Damascus, in Syria, and to bind them and bring them to Jerusalem, probably for trial by the Sanhedrin. – Ac. 8:1, 3; 9:1,2; 26:10, 11; Ga. 1:13,14″.
On the same page in the Insight book it says “Arriving in Jerusalem (perhaps in 36 C.E.;the three years mentioned at Galatians 1:18 possibly meaning parts of three years), Paul found that the brothers there did not believe that he was a disciple. However, “Barnabas came to his aid and led him to the apostles,” evidently Peter and “James the brother of the Lord.”
My words now:
So, this was only 3 years after Jesus supposedly died and was resurrected and went to heaven. How could it be true then that Paul went traveling all over the world to all these different congregations that had been supposedly built up around the religion of Jesus Christ in such a short period of time with all the persecution of the Christians that was supposedly happening all around them? Even Paul said that he was one of those persecuting the “Christians” so we know that that religion was being persecuted and even killed for being a “Christian”. According to the Bible, this religion had spread all over the world by that time. How could that be possible?
Witnesses are giving up their lives over what Paul wrote. What Paul wrote takes precedence over what Jesus said since Jesus didn’t say anything about not eating blood (except for his own blood that is). It isn’t a Christian religion but a Pauline religion that Witnesses are dying for.
If I was going to die for what Paul said, I’d want to make sure that he was a real person first. Our lives are worth making sure that what we get through the Watchtower can be proved to be true. We only get one chance at it and our life is precious.
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tiger123 says:
April 7, 2015 at 6:31 pm
The Bible hails the story of a Man God that gladly gives his life up. In the JW faith there are no celebrations other than the celebration of that event. Birthdays are not celebrated, rather they are banned. Life and the great experience of childbirth and a persons coming into existence are relegated behind death.
The pinnacle of being a JW is to die faithful. Death is a feature of their worship. They are as much a death cult as they are anything. Consider the stories in the Bible, so many of the accounts feature God killing someone or having his foot soldiers brutally killing an unsuspecting nation. Even in the Greek scriptures, it tells the story of Jesus and his brutal venerated death and culminates in the story of Jesus killing most of mankind with their blood up to its bridals of his white horse, no doubt covered in blood.
JWs face death as a part of their weekly rituals. Make no mistake this woman will be venerated as she reached the pinnacle of JWdom, a faithful death. That is why funerals are such a big part of the religion, any thinking person will know that a funeral does nothing for the dead. However it is a platform for religious leaders to peddle their after life stories and fake promises. When someone upholds the tenants of the religion and it results in death, their story will be told in front of hundreds. However the aftermath of suffering will only be known by a few.
Truly sad
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JWIntellect says:
April 7, 2015 at 7:42 pm
And yet dialysis is completely fine…
So very sad.
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rusty says:
April 7, 2015 at 9:07 pm
Welcome to the crazy world of the watch tower. There was a older lady in my congregation who had a illness in which she required regular transfusions. When the elders found out she was promptly disfellowshiped.
Even when she was reinstated the whole congregation looked at her with disgust every time she walked through the doors. How many people have to die before this doctrine is changed.
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John Z says:
April 7, 2015 at 9:58 pm
I love your comment! This sums it all up. I remember my dad ( big elder) saying it was better to be dead with a good name then alive with a bad one. This is such a sick religion. Your right death is better for them. I think I would rather be dead than a JW. No fun just work. It’s ridiculous!
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kat says:
April 7, 2015 at 10:59 pm
To make a decision for an unborn child is criminal, yet they are against abortion, I see no difference here. This is murder and talk back radio has been hot here over this, JW ringing up saying we accept alternative medical treatment, and the JW phoning and proudly claiming her faithfulness and obedience to abstain from blood, the resurrection hope was brought up, and was a platform for preaching, some were cut of, the publics disgust was loud.
The women will be praised for her loyalty to Jehovah, and used as an example, and of course nothing will be mentioned about her innocent baby, she committed suicide and murder, as far as I am concerned.
I can imagine the JW elders hospital liaison committee there encouraging her to do the right thing by Jehovah/organization/GB
And the trauma the hospital staff must go through, must be heart breaking, they are there to save lives, pleading for their lives.
Its very sad but also sickening, makes me so angry.
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Excelsior! says:
April 8, 2015 at 5:06 am
Folks,
An adult has the right to accept or refuse any medical treatment.
That being said, this tragic decision was motivated from undue influence. This woman was coerced into a decision that was not truly hers to make. Sure, the literature will say that the accepting of a blood transfusion is a matter of conscience, but we all know that it is not.
James kindly included the passage about blood transfusions from the “Shepherd the Flock of God” the secret Elder’s manual that many still claim does not exist. Here we see that, far from it being a free decision, their are consequences that are grave indeed.
There is a real threat of shunning if a person chooses a blood transfusion, so the decision is not free or fair.
The rights of unborn children is a matter for debate at another time.
Yet another sacrifice for the WTBTS. Two new “martyrs” for their unrecognisable god.
May they rest in peace, and may we all redouble our efforts to get this disgusting policy changed, along with so many others that destroy and damage so many innocent people.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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kat says:
April 8, 2015 at 6:44 am
Found this on a site thought it interesting on Parents their children the law and WT/ blood transfusions.
http://ajwrb.org/science/blood-transfusion-letter-of-understanding
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anonymous says:
April 8, 2015 at 9:06 am
Kat, if this is true, then nobody in the Organization is being made aware of it and it’s being kept secret from the rank and file.
I think it’s a scheme to cover the Society’s a**s with the newspapers, if a young child dies and the parents refused blood. The Society can come back and say that they have this form for parents to fill out in case their child might die without blood, but how many parents have have actually seen a form like that if their child is in danger of dying without blood??? That is my question.
How many children could have been saved even if they had been allowed to take fractions????
The Society is blood guilty. If a person takes blood, it should be up to their conscience. The Society was never appointed to speak for God and has no business making anybody feel guilty for taking blood and has no authority from God for making them feel they need to “repent” for taking it.
The Society put themselves in the place of God when it comes to judging whether or not something is approved of him or not and they have no business putting themselves as God’s spokesman. They are presumptuous and arrogant for taking such a position.
Every day, at least one of Jehovah’s Witnesses will be put at risk of losing their life due to blood and quite likely to die.
Being praised at a funeral isn’t going to be enjoyed by a dead person.
In order to not let the deaths of their loved ones bother these people, they have been trained to be psychopaths. That is how they can not let it bother them at the thought of billions of people, young and old, being killed at Armageddon with only themselves living into the “new world”.
They are trained from babyhood to be psychopaths by all the gruesome pictures of people being killed, whether at the flood of Noah’s ark or pictures of Armageddon. When a child is brought up from young on, picturing the deaths of billions of people, they become immune to the thought of death. The Society even likes to add sound effects to their demonstrations at assemblies to get them used to the idea of billions of people being slaughtered by God at Armageddon.
In order to not let the deaths of their loved ones bother their consciousness for when they do die for refusing blood, they anestheize themselves with the thought that God is going to resurrect them into the “new world”.
They have lost all normal feelings and that describes a psychopath.
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Trey says:
April 8, 2015 at 9:03 am
what saddens me even more is the response from the Jehovah’s Witnesses to this story online. I’ve read dozens of comment threads on Facebook news articles where they are condoning this and even rejoicing in it. Arrogant quotes such “the religion is perfect” and “when we see you in the new system we will say we told you so”. This mentality severely saddens me, the leaders who reinforce these doctrine and this mentality should be held responsible. The number of jws that came to the defends of this doctrine is also alarming, such as the article said, many claim blood transfusions are unsafe. But in Australia it’s incredibly rare for contamination to occur with how strict and rigorous their screenings and cleanings are.
I’m really glad this article was written. More people should read unbiased well informed articles like these and not whatever’s on the jw.org site
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James Broughton says:
April 8, 2015 at 9:13 am
Like Trey I am glad this article has been written.
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Ted says:
April 8, 2015 at 11:10 am
It’s human sacrifice, but as stated made under pressure
and not with a completely free will.
According to the principle expressed at -2 Corinthians 9/7
it would have small value in God’s eyes .
The life of the unborn child was also snuffed out, “Aborted”.
The only saving grace is, it will not have to grow up in this
oppressive cult.
I fear for my children and grand children, who are still under
the control of these religious maniacs.
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gary says:
April 9, 2015 at 12:15 am
Interesting and insightful article here folks,
http://www.letusreason.org/jw11.htm
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gary says:
April 9, 2015 at 12:47 am
It is clearly apparent that the scriptures do not mention blood transfusions nor the use of blood fractions and must be therefore down to interpretation/conscience. For a religion to enforce a blood policy is undoubtedly unscriptural. What it really comes down to is authority and the belief that the Watchtower Society represents God. . .God’s spokesman.
However I am lead to believe from the scriptures that they have been completed and God has spoken for himself, through the inspired writers, which the Watchtower admits not to being. They are without doubt spiritual bullies and blood guilty.
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stronaut says:
April 9, 2015 at 5:35 am
Thankfully, sometimes the opposite case is true.
In my country, they interviewed a woman over state TV who allowed her newborn to have the transfusion it needed. Needless to say, she is not a witness anymore.
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gary says:
April 9, 2015 at 7:05 am
Brother where you bound by Supertramp sums up my hatred for this and other abuses, I can’t say no more:-(:-(
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Sheila l says:
April 10, 2015 at 12:19 am
what is up with the fact that now JW allow organ transplants and that it is the and their conscience I think it is the same as difference not to mention how much blood can really get out of the organs before they put it in you
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anonymous says:
April 10, 2015 at 3:13 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=5DQQxWa_8PY
This story was in People magazine and friends raised over $300,000 for them on Facebook. She died shock from massive blood loss right after the C-section when she was taken to the hospital with very high blood pressure. I can’t find out whether or not she was a Witness but I can’t help but wonder if she refused a blood transfusion.
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Richard says:
April 10, 2015 at 8:39 am
I hate it when non-JW’s tell me that the JWs are harmless. It’s impossible to continue to have that opinion of that cult after reading something like this. I wish these situations would be exposed more often in the mainstream media.
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Ted says:
April 10, 2015 at 10:15 am
“But you are not to EAT MEAT with BLOOD in it .
“But you are not to EAT MEAT with BLOOD in it”.
“But you are not to EAT MEAT with BLOOD in it”. Gen, 9/4
The repetition is intentional, as JWs, fail to understand
those simple instructions. When a transfusion is being
administered, neither the Doctor or the Patient are eating
MEAT with the BLOOD in it.
As with many other Bible subjects they pontificate on, their
reasoning is schizophrenic. No JW would be a blood donor,
on pain of disfellowshipping. Yet are allowed fractions of blood
donated by “Armageddon fodder Worldlings”.
It’s irrational and hypocritical.
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Hippokrit says:
April 10, 2015 at 10:23 am
“Yet, on April 6th 2015 a seven-months pregnant woman in Sydney Australia, and her baby, died due to the mother’s refusal of a blood transfusion.”
But another woman killing her baby on the next room through forced abortion doesen’t seem to bother anyone. Hypocracy as usual.
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anonymous says:
April 10, 2015 at 4:08 pm
Hippokrit, all of Jehovah’s Witnesses know that abortion is murder but you will never see an article in Watchtower publications, condemning it because the Watchtower signed an agreement with the U.S. government that in order to be tax exempt, they couldn’t print any articles that are political. Did you know that? I would consider that to be hypocritical, wouldn’t you?
It the Society really cared for the life of unborn babies, they could print articles condemning abortion but they won’t in order to put more money into their bank accounts.
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Charles Costante says:
April 10, 2015 at 9:23 pm
That’s interesting, anonymous. Their website, however, does make a comment on the subject.
http://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/abortion-bible-view/
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anonymous says:
April 11, 2015 at 3:02 am
Charles, they make all kinds of comments about abortion but they will never condemn it and call it murder. Look all you want and you will never find that.
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Hippokrit says:
April 11, 2015 at 1:58 pm
Here’s to You from jw.org mr. Anonymous:
“God stated that a person would be called to account for injuring an unborn child. So, in his eyes, killing an unborn child is MURDER.”
http://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/abortion-bible-view/
Ted says:
April 10, 2015 at 1:28 pm
Hippokrit, Abortion is another subject, what’s being discussed
here is undue influence brought to bear. Pressurising sick people
to risk their life by threats of disfellowshipping and even death
at Armageddon.
From reading the posts on this subject I get the impression that
the contributors are compassionate and value all human life
very highly. It’s unfair to accuse someone of hypocrisy without
knowing their views on a subject.
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Pickled brain says:
April 10, 2015 at 3:17 pm
@Hippokrit. Can you Spell HYPOCRISY properly as you seem to accuse people of it quite freely !!
I’ll Give you a FEW Examples of HYPROCISY:
1)How about the JW Lives LOST due to Organ Transplants being condemned from 1967 to 1980 & called CANNIBALISM!!
2) how about JW Lives lost because of Vaccinations being condemned in the 1930s& 1940s
3) how about JW Lives lost because Blood Fracttions banned from 1962 to 2000 but now allowed
4) Blood FractIons come from DONATED BLOOD from worldly People so Hemoglobin(Severe Anaemia)Factor 8,(treatment for Hemophiliacs)Albumin(Treatment for breast cancer victims) etc,etc All Life threatening illnesses!!
So JWs are quite happy to make use of Kind Worldly People’s Blood Donations to improve their Lives but JWs aren’t willing to Donate Blood to help others!! HYPROCISY!!!!
5) Don’t go to University to train to be a Doctor BUT Quite Happy to use these Doctors to Save their Lives & their Loved Ones !!’ HYPROCISY
Hippokrit PLEASE GET A BRAIN!!!
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Hippokrit says:
April 11, 2015 at 12:33 am
First – I am not a Wathtower witness nor a Jehovahs witness’ witness. I am simply trying to be a true Jehovahs witness.
To me the Watchtower witness’ “governing body” are the perfect reflection of the Pharisees as they preach one thing and practise another.
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label licker says:
April 10, 2015 at 4:21 pm
Pickled Brain, let me add to your list that when my brother passed away at eleven years of age due to no blood, my mother took her life a few years later. She couldn’t live with what had happened to my brother.
Sad thing is there was no encouragement from the congregation or elders, ever, while she was battling with her depression/nervous breakdown due to what watchtower put her through.Not even a sympathy card from the congregation or watchtower headquarters. But she did get a huge funeral in the hall where no one gave a dam to know her or the rest of us. Not one visit from any of the morons while she was alive ever.
This cult has taken many lives.
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anonymous says:
April 10, 2015 at 5:45 pm
Label licker, Witnesses are too busy spreading the “good news” about billions being destroyed at Armageddon to give a sh*t about what anybody is going through. It’s only when a person is going through something like what your family went through for a person to realize how fake all the “love” really is and even that isn’t enough to wake up most of them. Unfortunately a lot of us wasted our lives on this crappy organization and had to get old to realize we had no real friends or family in the organization. Our real families and friends are not in the Organization and never were.
If anybody is coming on here and is young, please do some serious research before wasting your lives in this religion. It isn’t worth it. The Organization is nothing but no fun and lies, lies, lies, lies.
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Charles Costante says:
April 10, 2015 at 9:16 pm
Label licker, that is so tragic! The funeral was probably just another opportunity to preach their sanguine nonsense. Every time I hear something like this it makes me more determined to do whatever I can to destroy this cult!
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Pickled brain says:
April 11, 2015 at 3:25 am
@label licker. I empathise with you. I had a good friend who was an Elder who committed suicide.He stepped down from pioneering & felt like he had let JEHOVAH down & the congregation & his Family.Got severely depressed & took his own life. Very very SAD!!
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James says:
April 11, 2015 at 4:26 am
Its about time the Watchtower makes this at least a conscience matter. I doubt they will lift the ban outright due to fear of litigation.
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Ted says:
April 11, 2015 at 11:49 am
James. I totally agree, the blood doctrine should be left to the
individuals own conscience. But isn’t it wicked and perverse that
this should depend on the whim of vacillating and imperfect men
giving us the go ahead to exercise what is, a natural human right ?
This is nothing less than mental and emotional slavery !
“The Conscience of Humanity is the Foundation of all Law”.
That principle was established at the Nazi war criminals trial.
The defendants, ( On trial for Genocide,) put up a defence of
“Obeying Superior Orders”, but it didn’t succeed, they were hung.
It was ruled, “That when Superior Orders are Cruel and Inhuman”
they are Unlawful and that is when the individuals conscience
should take over.
Death resulting from denial of medical treatment is both cruel
and inhuman. And if there is to be a day of judgement,
will the excuse “I was obeying “Superior orders” exonerate us”?
Reply
anonymous says:
April 11, 2015 at 7:11 pm
@Hippokrit. All of Jehovah’s Witnesses know that abortion is murder. Getting involved in any kind of protests against it would get you disfellowshipped. Saying that God calls it murder is not getting involved in politics. Just commenting about it in the literature but not letting Witnesses get involved in the political side is only telling Jehovah’s Witnesses that they should have abortions. If the Society really cared about unborn babies being aborted, they’d let us get involved in protests but they won’t let that happen because of their tax exempt status.
The Watchtower is tax exempt and for that reason they can’t make any political statements against abortion. All they can do is discourage it.
You have no idea how much I have wanted to get involved in protests involving abortion but if I did, I’d get disfellowshipped for it.
When you made the comment that in the next room from somebody dying from refusing blood but somebody is having an abortion and we don’t care about it, is simply ludicrous. Where in the world did you ever get that idea?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz7Xt6hQ5PI&feature=player_detailpage
Reply
anonymous says:
April 12, 2015 at 12:44 pm
I meant to say in the above comment that the Watchtower is only telling Jehovah’s Witnesses that they should not get abortions. I should not have said that they were telling Witnesses to get abortions.
Reply
Graeme Hammond says:
April 13, 2015 at 6:25 am
A very well-written and reasoned article. Your point about the supposed “wickedness” of someone choosing to save their life, and that of their unborn child, is very powerful. I was sufficiently concerned by ethicist Sascha Callaghan’s comment in the Australian media that JWs’ anti-blood stance is “thoughtful” to email her and explain that JWs are usually unable to explain or justify the reason for their stance. JWs face coercion and are assailed with propaganda; ultimately they don’t reason or think — they obey. I referred her to Osamu Muramoto’s series of articles in Journal of Medical Ethics (downloadable) on the level of coercion JWs face on this issue. She has not replied.
Reply
Diana says:
April 14, 2015 at 11:07 pm
There’s a lot that needs to change before any of this will change. People need to recognize that psychological abuse and traumatic religious abuse are serious problems and that ostracism is the worst thing you can do to a human being. They also need to understand that religious abuse follows the same pattern as spousal abuse. First the victim is isolated to the organization so that when they disfellowship, they leave the victim utterly alone and vulnerable, giving them undue influence over the victim. But I’m experiencing something a little different. It’s kind of a pre-disfellowship shunning in an effort to get me to return to meeting attendance at the Kingdom Hall and to give my psychologically abusive husband more power and control. As someone leaving not only JW, but religion in general, I can say that these people’s minds are in bondage but they remain completely unaware of it. I am one of those people and I’m shocked by how strongly I ignored my own instincts in favor of organizational direction. My husband was, psychologically, “in” even deeper than I was. He told me he would obey the organization even if it went contrary to justice for an innocent person. How does an organization get someone to ignore what they know to be right? Undue influence over someone they have first of all isolated into maintaining solely JW associations, that’s how. They teach you to make your entire social network, JWs. I don’t think they deliberately do so for the purpose of abuse. They don’t see themselves as abusers. It’s just the outworking of their interpretation of a book about a narcissistic being with magical powers to save them from misery and death. We become like the Gods we worship.
Reply
Wendy says:
May 8, 2015 at 9:38 am
Hello everyone. I am new to this website and hope my comments are allowed. My heart broke when I read this story, it brought back memories of a situation long ago that I thought I had forgotten. I was a very new witness back in the early 80’s and was not familiar with all the congregants yet. There was a young brother (I will call him Brother Hastings for this comment) who was a diligent and faithful servant – attending all the meetings with his 4 small children in tow. His wife was a non-JW and didn’t attend the meetings, so Brother Hastings certainly had his hands full! At some point, the sad news of his illness made the rounds and it was discovered that he suffered from aggressive leukemia. Of course, back then there was no blood, no blood factions, nothing of the sort that could be used to save his life so he valiantly refused treatment and got sicker and sicker. The rest of the congregation had plenty of wonderful words of encouragement to offer, you know, “Oh Brother Hastings is so faithful; strong; devoted; __________(fill in the blank).” As the weeks progressed, he got weaker and weaker, paler and paler, as the disease took over his body. But, being the caring group of people that the fellow witnesses were, they brought him a lounge chair from someone’s swimming pool so he could lay down at the back of the hall and continue attending the meetings. He was too weak to even sit, but by golly he could lay down in the plastic chair in the back of the room. Must have been heartwarming for him when the congregation stood with their backs to him while singing their kingdom melodies. Yes, backs were turned both literally and figuratively. He died shortly afterwards, and of course the obligatory commendations were made about how strong, faithful, etc. he was. “What a fine example to everyone!” However, no mention was made about the fact that now there was a widow with 4 small children who were orphans. And as far as financial assistance? Are you kidding? None would be forthcoming as his wife was a non-JW! Really, unbelievable! But wait, before you think everyone at the KH was completely heartless, a group of sisters got together and organized a casserole assignment – that’s right! Casseroles were to be delivered to the home of the widow and orphans – I think about 5 people volunteered so that made up for the heartache of losing a husband/father. I’ll never forget my turn, driving to their home with my casserole dish praying that no one would be home. I was so ashamed and embarrassed! I did not want to face the family with a casserole dish in my hand, the guilt was unbearable! I pulled into the driveway, knocked lightly (very lightly) on the back door and left the casserole on the steps. As I drove away, I couldn’t help the feeling that it was all so terribly wrong – but somehow managed to stay in the WT org for another 10 years. What was I thinking? (I wasn’t)
Anyway, that episode has always haunted me and I am glad I found a forum to talk about it. This is the first time I have ever spoken of it. I hope Mrs. Hastings threw all those casseroles in the trash.
Reply
Wendy says:
May 8, 2015 at 9:38 am
Hello everyone. I am new to this website and hope my comments are allowed. My heart broke when I read this story, it brought back memories of a situation long ago that I thought I had forgotten. I was a very new witness back in the early 80’s and was not familiar with all the congregants yet. There was a young brother (I will call him Brother Hastings for this comment) who was a diligent and faithful servant – attending all the meetings with his 4 small children in tow. His wife was a non-JW and didn’t attend the meetings, so Brother Hastings certainly had his hands full! At some point, the sad news of his illness made the rounds and it was discovered that he suffered from aggressive leukemia. Of course, back then there was no blood, no blood factions, nothing of the sort that could be used to save his life so he valiantly refused treatment and got sicker and sicker. The rest of the congregation had plenty of wonderful words of encouragement to offer, you know, “Oh Brother Hastings is so faithful; strong; devoted; __________(fill in the blank).” As the weeks progressed, he got weaker and weaker, paler and paler, as the disease took over his body. But, being the caring group of people that the fellow witnesses were, they brought him a lounge chair from someone’s swimming pool so he could lay down at the back of the hall and continue attending the meetings. He was too weak to even sit, but by golly he could lay down in the plastic chair in the back of the room. Must have been heartwarming for him when the congregation stood with their backs to him while singing their kingdom melodies. Yes, backs were turned both literally and figuratively. He died shortly afterwards, and of course the obligatory commendations were made about how strong, faithful, etc. he was. “What a fine example to everyone!” However, no mention was made about the fact that now there was a widow with 4 small children who were orphans. And as far as financial assistance? Are you kidding? None would be forthcoming as his wife was a non-JW! Really, unbelievable! But wait, before you think everyone at the KH was completely heartless, a group of sisters got together and organized a casserole assignment – that’s right! Casseroles were to be delivered to the home of the widow and orphans – I think about 5 people volunteered so that made up for the heartache of losing a husband/father. I’ll never forget my turn, driving to their home with my casserole dish praying that no one would be home. I was so ashamed and embarrassed! I did not want to face the family with a casserole dish in my hand, the guilt was unbearable! I pulled into the driveway, knocked lightly (very lightly) on the back door and left the casserole on the steps. As I drove away, I couldn’t help the feeling that it was all so terribly wrong – but somehow managed to stay in the WT org for another 10 years. What was I thinking? (I wasn’t)
Anyway, that episode has always haunted me and I am glad I found a forum to talk about it. This is the first time I have ever spoken of it. I hope Mrs. Hastings threw all those casseroles in the trash.
Reply
Wendy says:
May 8, 2015 at 9:40 am
Sorry somehow this posted twice and I don’t know how to delete it. If some admin can delete the duplicate post, thank you.
Reply
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← Ashya King reported as cancer-free by parents
My response to the haters (and why I can’t always shake it off) →
Harmful beliefs – woman and her unborn child perish after she refuses a blood transfusion
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Posted on April 7, 2015
Prince of Wales Hospital in Randwick, where a Jehovah's Witness woman and her child have died due to the blood policy
Prince of Wales Hospital in Randwick, where a Jehovah’s Witness woman and her child have died due to the blood policy
Is there such a thing as a lifesaving blood transfusion? To some that may seem like a silly question, but it’s something many Jehovah’s Witnesses are skeptical about. Section 4 of their new “history” book mentions the concept while talking about parental custody battles involving non-believing parents:
“The non-Witness parent may petition a court for custody of the child or children so that he or she can control their religious upbringing. Some allege that being raised as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses is harmful. They may contend that the children will be deprived of birthday celebrations, holiday festivities and, in the event of a medical emergency, a ‘lifesaving’ blood transfusion. Thankfully, most courts consider what is in the best interests of the child instead of judging whether they consider the religion of one parent to be harmful.”
In my time as an online activist I have encountered many Watchtower apologists, and their arguments on this topic are always very similar. First, they say it’s their unalienable right to be able to decide to refuse a medical treatment, even if it means their own demise. Second, they say there are most likely better options. In my experience, it’s almost impossible for them to admit the existence of scenarios where a blood transfusion is the only logical option. This mentality is mirrored by the above quote’s use of quotation marks around the term “lifesaving” which are often used as a form of mockery.
Yet, on April 6th 2015 a seven-months pregnant woman in Sydney Australia, and her baby, died due to the mother’s refusal of a blood transfusion. The account of her case had this to say following the tragedy:
“Refusal of a lifesaving intervention by an informed patient is generally well respected, but the right of a mother to refuse such interventions on behalf of her fetus is more controversial…”
Rather than responsibly addressing the clear ethical dilemma that their religious policy creates, Watchtower would rather question the premise altogether and hide behind religious freedom.
The real question, that demands an answer, is whether or not someone’s religion can actually be considered harmful to themselves or others. The answer to this riddle has far-reaching implications, because if it were true any legal systems established to mitigate harm would need to account for it.
Between a rock and a hard place
Many people would argue that this woman was simply exercising her rights. For instance, Sascha Callaghan, an expert in ethics and law at the University of Sydney, said this about the situation:
“This woman had a long-held commitment to the Jehovah’s Witness faith and that’s how she chose to die.”
What Dr Callaghan isn’t factoring into her assessment is the religious coercion that the woman was subjected to. She fails to mention that Jehovah’s Witnesses can be expelled from their organization and severely ostracized for unrepentantly accepting a lifesaving blood transfusion. That’s the reality that this poor woman was violently thrust into. She could save her own and her child’s life, but she could lose her life in a different way altogether.
Clearly, this kind of pressure constitutes an undue influence on the part of the religious hierarchy that is essentially governing her beliefs. It’s extremely unethical to put anyone through this dilemma, but Watchtower stubbornly clings to their destructive doctrine even as more and more avoidable deaths rack up.
Simply making blood transfusions a matter of conscience altogether would do wonders to improve this dire situation. How can one’s decision to die, or let their children die, be taken seriously when they face total ostracism if they unrepentantly choose life over death?
Scan of pages 111 and 112 of "Shepherd the Flock of God"
Scan of pages 111 and 112 of “Shepherd the Flock of God”
JW.org explicitly states that anyone they expel from their congregation they consider to be wicked. How can giving no apology for your decision to save you and your child’s life be, in any way, considered an act of wickedness?
Life and love over law
Ethics in the medical community place an extremely high value on life itself. Practices that cost life rather than save it are rightly taken very seriously due to their far-reaching repercussions.
For example, the victim’s obstetricians were said to “rarely see people die, or make a decision that will hasten death.” These practitioners were essentially forced to play a role in an avoidable death – a role that can come with negative psychological consequences.
The community in which the deaths happened was also forced to look on in horror. All of the people who value life over someone’s religious beliefs simply didn’t get a vote. Maybe one day that might change.
It’s difficult to imagine that even with a dead mother and child, a traumatized medical staff and a shocked and grieving community, the Watchtower deity is said to be looking down with happiness and approval. How could such an entity be considered the very personification of love while showing utter disregard for the sanctity of life itself?
A voice for the voiceless
Children of Jehovah’s Witness parents, born and unborn, are powerless to make medical decisions for themselves, so these are often made by their legal guardians. Yet, when the child’s life is on the line, do they have rights that protect themselves?
Dr Kidson-Gerber and her colleague Dr Amber Biscoe wrote the following in an account of the case where the woman died:
“A doctor indeed has moral obligations to both the pregnant woman, and perhaps with differing priority to the unborn fetus. Circumstances where fetal and maternal autonomy conflict, or where fetal beneficence conflicts with maternal autonomy, create challenges.”
Who speaks on behalf of the child when the mother’s medical decisions are blatantly not in the child’s best interests? The answer is: everybody. Simply put, the community that the unborn child is entering into has a vested interest in the introduction of a new citizen.
Yet, Jehovah’s Witnesses want to believe that they have a “kingdom” which is no part of this earth. They see ones who are born into their families as citizens apart. The Watchtower’s religious hierarchy wants to be able to micromanage the lives of these citizens even to the point of influencing decisions over the life and death of children, born and unborn.
The fetus who perished didn’t even have a chance to understand its vital role in the dramatic struggle between the religious and governmental powers of the day. Perhaps if enough people speak up for those who are too young to speak for themselves, they will be able to become neighbors rather than uncomfortable memories.
new-james-signature
Further reading…
◾Daily Mail: Pregnant Jehovah’s Witness and her baby die after she refused a blood transfusion, chemotherapy and a C-section due to her religious beliefs
◾Sydney Morning Herald: Pregnant Jehovah’s Witness’ decision to refuse treatment ‘harrowing’ for hospital staff after mother and baby die
◾Washington Post: Why doctors let a Jehovah’s Witness and her unborn baby die
◾Jehovah’s Witness Report article
◾JWsurvey articles on blood transfusions
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66 Responses to Harmful beliefs – woman and her unborn child perish after she refuses a blood transfusion
← Older Comments
John says:
June 1, 2015 at 7:51 am
I’m active JW whose been dissed, reproved, sent home from bethel, treated like dirt by the elders, and everything else that ex-jws whine and cry about, so I have plenty of reasons to be mad at the organization. But I still dont understand whats up with yall and this blood. Why would you want someone elses blood in your body? Its utterly disgusting. Just think about it. Would you want someone elses urine in your bladder, feces in your bowels, spit/saliva in your mouth, or vomit in your stomach? Blood visits all those places yet I’m gonna take a complete strangers blood and put it in my body. Its f**king sick.
Reply
Pickled brain says:
June 2, 2015 at 2:48 pm
@John . Well my friend you are an active witness. ??? What LESSON in the Theocratic School Guidebook are you working on in your last sentence when you use that EXCELLENT SCRIPTURAL TERMINOLOGY ‘ F***king!!! I think you need to WORK ON the Number of Asterisks!!
Reply
Pickled brain says:
June 2, 2015 at 2:50 pm
@John .,Apologies to you as you have got the number of asteriskes right!!
Looks like I’ll have to WORK ON ACCURACY!!
Reply
anonymous says:
June 2, 2015 at 3:10 pm
Wow John!!! Blood is like urine, feces, spit and vomit? I know it’s sticky but urine, feces, spit and vomit? I for one am glad I got it coursing through my veins or I’d be dead and if somebody was nice enough to give me some if I was bleeding to death, I’d never think of it like that. To me it would be the gift of life, not something disgusting.
Reply
Pickled brain says:
June 2, 2015 at 11:41 pm
@Anonymous. WELL SAID in answer to John!
I wonder if John has a wife& children ? How would he feel if In an EMERGENCY his Wife was BLEEDING PROFUSELY in childbirth & without blood she would immediately DIE & his Children were CRYING Because they would be MOTHERLESS for the rest Of Their GENERATION which could mean 70 0r 80 years or whatever the rest of their lives are!!!
Reply
John says:
June 4, 2015 at 8:32 pm
Yes, I do have a wife and child. I’ve also watched 2 witness children die from refusing to take blood and was the paul bearer at one of their funerals. I also use to work in the basement of one of the top hospitals in the US near the receiving docks and watched how this “lifesaving” blood was mishandled before being giving to patients. And to answer your previous question Mr. Pickle, the last student counsel point I worked on was accurate pronunciation which I think is #5. So do you have anything else ignorant, stupid, dumb, or foolish you’d like to say?
Reply
anonymous says:
June 5, 2015 at 3:05 am
John, you say you watched two Witness children die from refusing blood and still you look at it as disgusting? You don’t say a word about it being condemned in the Bible but you say the reason is because to you it’s like vomit, spit, urine and feces. The fact that you personally know of two children who died from refusing blood, means that there must be thousands of children who die from refusing blood every year then. We have no way of knowing just how many children die from blood because the Society doesn’t publish the figures. At one time, they were so proud of it that they put a bunch of their faces on the Awake magazine, like doing that was some kind of consolation to the parents or something. If you as an adult don’t want something so disgusting keeping you alive, doesn’t mean that you have the right to decide for a child who is too little to make a reasoned decision. I can’t think of anything more ignorant (to put it in your words to Picked Brain), stupid, dumb or foolish than that a reason for two young children to die than your reasoning.
You say you are married but like Pickled brain said, how would you feel if it was your child that had died from refusing blood? It’s easy to make a statement like that if it was not your child that had died.
I did go through that experience and my child more than likely would have died if she didn’t have blood and then five years later, I found out that there is nothing in the Bible at all that tells us that God would kill a person at Armageddon for taking blood. How would I have felt if she did die because of refusing blood 5 years ago and now I find out that the Society was making the whole thing up? She would have died for nothing. I would hate the Governing Body so much that I’d feel like bombing the Watchtower buildings down. That is how angry I would have felt when I found out that the Society is nothing but a money grubbing cult and they don’t give a rip about all the people that die every year because of their man made rules that are not backed up by Scripture.
It’s all a man made religious belief about blood and that’s is all. Give us some proof that God is speaking through the JW religion. I want to hear your proof. The Society has changed it’s stance on blood so many times, that they can no longer come back and say that the Bible condemns it.
So, the only reason those two children died in your opinion is because to you, blood is likened to spit, urine, vomit and feces. It is impossible for me to come up with a more ridiculous statement than that.
When you claim that you have all kinds of reasons for you to be mad at the Society, what would it take for you to really be mad at them after what you have gone through? Just how many lies to they have to tell you before you would believe that they are full of s***t and you have been tricked into believing them that they were appointed by God? Are you in some kind of coma or something? I don’t get why you are still loyal?
James Strait says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:57 pm
Hello John, if you or your children were in need of a life-saving surgery would you be opposed to it even if it was done bloodless? The reason why I ask is because the argument you are using for your stance against blood transfusions can also be applied to surgeries or actually the whole medical field in general. Terrible things have happened to innocent people because of mistakes, abuse and even negligence by practitioners. Does that mean that the entire field of medicine should be judged as immoral or just not worth it? Does that mean we should mistrust a doctor because other doctors have done bad things and made terrible mistakes? That’s not reasonable.
Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t seem very comfortable being up front about their views on blood transfusions. Their position is really simple: they say the Bible prohibits them. Yet, I see Jehovah’s Witnesses all the time arguing that blood transfusions are dangerous. As if their stance is somehow practical in addition to Biblical.
The way I see it is that you can’t have your cake and eat it too. If you refuse blood transfusions because you think they are dangerous, well then so is getting a surgery done. Why not use the same standard? Why not just be honest and say that the MAIN reason you don’t take them is because of a religious belief.
Excelsior! says:
June 5, 2015 at 3:39 am
John,
Sir, there is a medical procedure where some poop with good bacteria is injected up into the intestine of someone who does not have healthy bacteria! It can help in certain circumstances.
If you have been treated so badly by the WTBTS, why have you remained?
I am genuinely interested to know.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
Shanti says:
June 5, 2015 at 5:44 am
Premarin, a common form of hormone replacement therapy, is made from pregnant mare’s urine.
I’m not clear if John is defending the JW’s stance on blood transfusions or if he personally can not accept it for reasons other than religion.
I know people who would accept a transfusion but who can not bear to go through the process to donate blood. I can remember my first time donating blood was extremely scary and held a certain “ick” factor.
As far as some of the blood for transfusions not being handled correctly (per John), I don’t doubt that possibility and it is sad. I don’t think we live in a sterile environment anyway. The streams are full of e-coli from sewage and animal manure. My personal favorite is a guy I knew who used to be a waiter and claimed to spit in the food of all the customers who were rude to him! There’s a good chance we are all consuming urine, feces and spit!
Reply
Mindshadow says:
June 11, 2015 at 11:52 am
I feel a bit sorry for your wife, then, if you stronglyfeel that taking in someone else’s bodily fluids is “disgusting”.
Reply
Grace says:
June 11, 2015 at 2:41 pm
John, you must be a vegan I gather.
Reply
Grace says:
June 11, 2015 at 2:42 pm
And John, did you let your wife breastfeed your children?
Reply
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← Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
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Posted on June 5, 2015
In a video clip from the 2015 convention series, Robert and Brenda Sutton are praised for shunning their child
In a video clip from the 2015 convention series, Robert and Brenda Sutton are praised for shunning their child
It is a predicament that all too many visitors to this website, myself included, find themselves in: believing Jehovah’s Witness relatives cutting off all contact in the belief they must do so in order to show loyalty to God.
And there appears to be no sign of Watchtower relaxing its cruel shunning policy, which it has repeatedly denied even having – especially if a video from the 2015 regional convention series is anything to go by.
In the video, which has just started to be circulated on Facebook, a JW couple identified as Robert and Brenda Sutton are interviewed about their experience raising three children. It emerges that one of their children was disfellowshipped not long after getting a new job where there was “questionable association with coworkers.”
The Suttons, who are now working at the Watchtower bethel facilities in Warwick, unashamedly talk about how they “cut off all association” with their child after he or she was disciplined by elders. They describe how the shunning eventually led to him or her returning to the organization.
After they give their experience, the speaker praises the couple for their “excellent example” as they exit the stage to applause from the audience.
What makes this video especially difficult to watch is how the parents who did the shunning are quick to portray themselves as victims in this scenario, with seemingly no thought for the trauma of ostracism inflicted on their child.
“It was one of the hardest things that I ever had to face,” relates Brenda Sutton. “I had many sleepless nights praying to Jehovah, but I came to realize that we needed to trust in what Proverbs 22 and verse 6 says: ‘train a boy in the way he should go, even when he grows old he will not depart from it.'”
In other words: train up a boy to believe what you believe without question, and if he grows up and walks away from it of his own free will you can bank on him returning if you are prepared to emotionally blackmail him.
“We began to question ourselves as parents,” says Robert Sutton. “Where did we go wrong? Were we too strict? Were we too lenient? Just what did we do that was wrong?”
Guilt and self-loathing are typical by-products of cult indoctrination, and few things induce these toxic feelings quite as well as an adult son or daughter walking away from the faith despite the best efforts of believing parents to super-impose their beliefs on him or her.
“But one thing we did for sure, and that’s in addition to multiple times with praying to Jehovah,” added Robert Sutton. “We made sure that we cling to our spiritual routine.”
Yes – staying busy, busy, busy in “Jehovah’s service” helps keep those feelings of guilt at bay. You may have let the Creator down by failing to calibrate your child’s brain to his specifications, but at least you can put in extra ministry time to compensate.
“What was it that moved your child to return to Jehovah?” asks the speaker.
“Well it was the missed association with the family,” says Brenda Sutton proudly and unflinchingly. “And here’s why, I had always told our kids… ‘I would die for you, I love you, would die for you, but if you ever leave Jehovah I wouldn’t be there’. And they knew that we wouldn’t waver on this. But sad to say, and as hard as it was, we had to cut off all association.”
Speaking for myself, those who are being shunned by JW relatives don’t want their relatives to die for them. They want them to live with them and be in their lives.
A person could easily find himself or herself in a situation where they choose to die for a complete stranger, perhaps a small child on a road as a car approaches, but that doesn’t mean they have full love for the person they are saving. They are merely showing basic human solidarity for a vulnerable person in peril.
Real love is when you stand by your child no matter what, through good times and bad, and sadly JW parents who capitulate to the cruel and baseless rules about shunning can never lay claim to such love. Their love is conditional – based on their offspring sharing the beliefs they have been indoctrinated to accept, usually by their own parents.
Speaking as someone who has recently become a father, I know that wild horses couldn’t pull me away from my baby daughter – especially not something as frivolous and petty as ideological differences.
It saddens me to think my father once felt his own love for me was unbreakable, perhaps when he once cradled me in his arms when I was a baby. The fact that a cult can erode such strong parental bonds only underscores for me how corrosive Watchtower ideology is, and how important it is that it be combated, refuted and dismantled wherever possible.
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Further reading…
◾Friendly Atheist article
◾If shunning loved ones is scriptural, why does Watchtower publicly deny the practice?
◾JWsurvey articles on shunning
◾JWfacts article on disfellowshipping and shunning
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← Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
142 Responses to 2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
Newer Comments →
X Leonhart says:
June 5, 2015 at 1:41 pm
It’s really disgusting to hear those parents words…
I have two daughters and nothing in this world could make me leave them alone, no matter what they could do, I’ll be there to help them.
It’s horrible to see how cruel and cynical this cult is…
Reply
DAC says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:24 pm
Exactly. How could a parent ever say that there would ever be a situation where “they wouldn’t be there for them”. Awful.
Reply
Erik says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:11 am
I know personally not all JW parents will or can follow this. I never considered it. An elder and his wife have moved in with their DA’d son. They moved a distance from their old community. They have no intention of not helping him, they consider his issues, and they also have no intention of missing out on their grand-daughter’s life! His mother did tell me privately that she knows other JWs have other ideas, and so she doesn’t share her viewpoint with everyone. But she must have felt safe to share it with me. I know of another mother who refused to shun while her DF’d son struggled with addiction, quietly doing what she felt Jesus would do.
Reply
awokensoul says:
June 6, 2015 at 4:41 am
Yes, but therein lies the issue. Everyone knows a Jdub that doesn’t agree with one policy or another, but the fact is, they are doing it in defiance to what comes from the slave, and in effect, what comes from jehova.
My parents are stuck in that quagmire now. I haven’t Da’d myself, so we can keep playing that silly little loophole, but things are strained between us because I clearly want nothing to do with the org. As such, they really don’t have anything to say or do with me.
Considering this draconian black and white ,”us versus them” nonsense keeps getting plugged into their brains, it’s a wonder we’re even cordial.
Simple human decency dictates that shunning someone over a disagreement is wrong, but when their god keeps telling them to do so (Deut. 13:6-9), their hands are tied in the matter.
Reply
Ejay says:
June 5, 2015 at 1:45 pm
The audience must be confused…They applaud when they should be appalled.
This should be a solemn, mournful thing. No one should be congratulated or encouraged.
And regardless of what their son did, should wanting renewed association be his primary reason for returning or should it be love for God?
The ‘Society’ seems not to care, just as long as you come back and can be another number in a yearbook.
Reply
ScotWm says:
June 7, 2015 at 6:55 pm
RE: “The audience must be confused…They applaud when they should be appalled.”
I’m not so sure that the entire assembly audience comprehends what is said from the platform.
At one assembly I attended, the speaker read a list of figures which indicated increases in whatever the category was: Field service hours, books placed, newly baptized, congregation attendance, numbers of pioneers — whatever. A round of applause followed each increased number announced.
Then the brother read a number that showed a decrease in one category and a round of applause followed. I and several others sat there silent as thousand of people applauded the decreased number.
I’m guessing that many, if not most, of the assembly delegates are totally numbed by the continual boredom that they aren’t really comprehending anything that is said from the stage.
Reply
Swallowtail says:
June 5, 2015 at 1:52 pm
So it wasn’t the child’s love for Jehovah that sucked him/her back in, it was the love for the parents. Isn’t that missing the point? How can those parents and audience stand there and not see the failed logic in that approach? OH and even better, lets make the mom in her grief continue to push her emotions aside and push on in the ministry to get more people to shun. How sad.
Reply
awokensoul says:
June 6, 2015 at 4:45 am
It’s never “love for jehova”. It’s never, “I missed giving talks and comments at the meeting.” In the end, it’s always “I couldn’t stand the loneliness and I just wanted my family back.”
When you’re in, they do a great job of instilling an insular mentality in your mind. So when you’re out, you’re nothing more than an island of one. You can’t make friends with “worldly people”, or trust them to any real extent. It’s really only a matter of time before you break down and come back.
Reply
Riley says:
June 5, 2015 at 1:59 pm
Wow this is amazing. How can you shun your family I will never understand or agree with it. It’s happening to me personally and to hear them say it’s hard for them wow so disgusting. How about you choose to love your child and do what you know is right. It’s pretty obvious that shunning is wrong and damaging but they actually think that they are right wow pathetic. Figure it out how can you not see through the propaganda of the org honestly…
Reply
Jerry O Connor says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:02 pm
I almost vomited after seeing this. We all know that watchtower denies a policy of shunning. The only good to come out of the video is that it proves there is a shunning policy. It is an “own goal ” by watchtower. The cat is out of the bag. Conditional love is not love. You don’t need to be a psychiatrist to see that their reasons for the vile act came from
mentally disturbed minds.
Reply
Riley says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:02 pm
I was turned down twice in my judicial committee and the main thing they said was I was only doing it for my family and that wasn’t the right reason. So not ok for me but its ok for there kid…. Yeah so happy I’m chose to never go back to that cult !
Reply
David says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:05 pm
Sometimes I ask myself, how is possible that so many atrocities where committed in WWII? How is possible that the catholic church practiced the inquisition? I also ask myself how is possible that the jw.org is so potent in controlling people brains and behaviour to the point where parents shun family members for life. To even let children die for refusing a blood transfusion. Do they really believe those seven men are special? Come on! how can the JWs be so stupid and ignorant. These men are not special but the life of your son or daughter is special. If you inflict such a cruel punishment to a person it cannot be undone.
Jesus preached a message of freedom, where him alone is the master. Those seven lunatics enjoy having a superstar status and misinterpret the Christian message.
Your family members are a gift what the jw.orgs says is just guesses if not fabricated lies. Please JWs do some research and see yourself the amount of rubbish teaching these people have produced. Have you watched may jw tv broadcast and the amount of lies said by Mr Lett?
Reply
j brown says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:13 pm
I can’t get over how goofy daddy Sutton looks and much of a basket-case mommy Sutton comes across. And then to have these two on the convention program. Simply laughable!
Reply
David says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:43 pm
It is also amazing the fake image that they portray of themselves. They really know the best in propaganda techniques.
If you watch their videos it looks like everything is perfect, the love in the organisation seems abundant. Come on JWs! is that what you really experience in your local congregation? I constantly heard complains of old people being neglected. I can see from my experience that the kingdom halls are full of depressed people. Young people are mostly apathetic and without real aim. Their greatest satisfaction is standing hours next to a JW cart advertising non sense. Playing videos explaing 1914, come on, that’s a joke. Non intelligent people can believe such a teaching made of unrelated scriptures pasted together.
When they talk about cart preaching they say that the results are amazing. I live in a big city and never seen such amazing interest from people. The JWs seems like part of the city landscape, like traffic lights, buses.
My collegues never talk about them, nobody talks about them. But for them everything they do is historic, is amazing!
I will never understand their mentality!
The JWs are famous for portraying themselves the best people on earth and the rest the worst people on earth. That is a complete lie. They are like anybody else with a bit of delusion.
Do you think people are amazed knowing that JW parent shun people that make the adult decision to follow a different path in life?
Do you think people get interested in the Bible when they know the amount of false interpretations taught by the JWs?
Reply
Grace says:
June 5, 2015 at 6:35 pm
@David,
So well put. Especially the fact that they will brag about how wonderful they are. Anyone knows that when someone has to spruce so much about themselves, there is something really lacking. A happy person doesn’t need to go around pronouncing how happy they are. A good person doesn’t need to tell people how good they are.
Reply
John Chapman says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:45 pm
‘a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ Matthew 10:36
For the son despises his father. The daughter defies her mother. The daughter-in-law defies her mother-in-law. Your enemies are right in your own household! Micah 7:6
Reply
Rowland Nelken says:
June 5, 2015 at 3:24 pm
What is the significance or relevance of those Bible verses, John Chapman? Merely rejecting JW twaddle should not be a cause for enmity. Disagreement about religious doctrine certainly caused wars in Christendom’s blood soaked past, and is the spur to the horrors committed today by ISIS, Boko Haram and others. But to make an enemy of your child simply because they do not go along with your religious notions is nothing short of obscene. Please explain why you have printed those Bible verses. What possible relevance do they have to this horrible story?
Reply
SR says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:46 pm
That is a really good video to circulate. It shows the pressure the organization puts on it’s members. I liked the part were the mom says “I told them if they ever left Jehovah I would have nothing to do with them.” Yup, because the organization IS God.
Reply
SR says:
June 5, 2015 at 11:15 pm
The dad says that he needed to step back and let Jehovah discipline his child. Since the organization = God he is saying to give up parental ties and let the organization at the child. If you substitute Watch Tower for every time they say Jehovah that video gets even creepier.
Reply
Finn Sawyer says:
June 5, 2015 at 3:03 pm
Lloyd,
Good read, and excellent exposure of this cruel practice. No natural affection, indeed. I would sooner die than do this to my kids. As of yet I have not been “discovered” by my family. As much as I’d like to spill the beans and try to bring them over, clear the air, I’m thinking I should stay a mystery after reading this.
Reply
David says:
June 5, 2015 at 3:10 pm
According to them even if you are a good person with good standards, values and perhaps still a believer you should be shunned for life. If this isn’t madness what it is?
Honestly having parents so stupid and blind is a misfortune. I am really sorry for these people because one day they’ll release how stupid they are.
They are ruining people lives and precious family bonds for blind religious fanaticism and extremism.
How would they feel if everybody shuns them? if they loose their jobs?
If somebody decides to follow God it must be a spontaneous and a free decision not dictated of shameful mafia tactics.
Honestly when you see these things is better to turn page, because these people are brainwashed and cannot understand common sense. They are like possessed. They just listen to their seven american false gods that are all busy with gigantic materialist projects mocking Christ example.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 5, 2015 at 3:32 pm
That video clearly shows that it wasn’t love for God or even the Organization that made that child come back “spiritually” but it was missed association with the family. How can those people be proud of that? You would think the first reason would be that he missed God if it really was the “truth”. I hope that kid gets himself reinstated and then stops going to meetings.
Hopefully when he gets a little older and can piece it all together in his mind, he will see that the love from his parents is conditional and shunning is nothing but blackmail and his parents are walking, talking, unfeeling brainless Watchtower zombies.
Reply
Dee says:
June 5, 2015 at 4:04 pm
I have to wonder if someone at Bethel asked them, no…told them, that they would give their experience and make an example of their shunning of their child. I hope it was difficult and awful and painful for them to do. It’s shameful and unchristian.
Reply
Darlene Alexander says:
June 5, 2015 at 4:05 pm
“I had always told our kids… ‘I would die for you, I love you, would die for you, but if you ever leave Jehovah I wouldn’t be there.”
Conditional love at its finest!! Why did that child return? To be with their Family – NOT with the religion. At least they are admitting to their emotional blackmail – it matters not that the child still may not ‘do Jehovah’s will’ – just that the blackmail WORKED! They are getting sicker and crazier every day.
Reply
Dblaron42 says:
June 5, 2015 at 4:11 pm
Where to begin? Wow. There is a TV show on PBS here in the states called ” Keeping Up Appearances”; and I think one of the most ironic things in my experiences with the Borg (via my ex-wife) was that my ex absolutely LOVED this show… it used to kill me that she did not see the correlation of this show to how the borg operate.
Thankfully I do not have to deal with their crap anymore… and I have made it abundantly clear to my daughter that I would never ever ever shun her because we have different beliefs. Sadly she cannot count on the same from her mom.
Reply
Mama Joy says:
June 5, 2015 at 4:30 pm
This sickens me….
Out of all the scriptures that states “Do not judge” or “show love” hundreds of times in bible ….. Yet, the JW’s pick one scripture that says something (when taken out of context) that states to get rid of your family. ……. So they take this one misused scripture to justify betraying their own children and casting them aside like the Samaritan woman. …… “Whoa to them that hurt these little children!”
Reply
Ted says:
June 5, 2015 at 5:11 pm
Is this why we bring children into the World ? To impose our
beliefs on them ? So denying them the right to develop their
own ideals, their own philosophy on life?
How self righteous to assert ones own beliefs are the only valid
ones. And how harsh, how brutish, to withdraw natural affection
and association until our children conform.
To use the love that exists between family members, as a weapon
to control is obscene. It’s a method familiar to fascists and
dictators.
Reply
Susan says:
June 5, 2015 at 5:19 pm
What hypocrites the JW org is. In the June 2013 Watchtower they say the following about couples who use the silent treatment: “some spouses use the silent treatment as a form of revenge…some as a means to get what they want…when it is used a means to retaliate or manipulate, it prolongs conflict and erodes respect.” So the Watchtower Society knows full well that they are seeking to manipulate members who leave them by shunning them. They isolate them and make them feel that they are completely alone in the world and use shunning to get them to return. This has resulted in countless suicides. I personally know of SIX! This barbaric treatment needs to stop.
Reply
Grace says:
June 5, 2015 at 6:40 pm
@Susan,
Fantastic reasoning & using their own literature too. Love the comments on this.
Reply
alanv says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:54 am
Thanks for that comment Susan. It truly is amazing that the org condemn others for doing exactly what they do, except they do it even worse.
Reply
Karen says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:07 am
Perfectly said. Your point here is one of the things that contributed my awakening. Hopefully others are making note of this contradiction and starting to wake up as well.
Reply
J Brown says:
June 7, 2015 at 12:14 am
Susan what an awesome post. Can you site specifically the article in June 2013 you are referring to? That would be a big help! I’m having difficulty locating it. Thank you.
Reply
Jerry O Connor says:
June 5, 2015 at 5:59 pm
Having watched the clip a second time I observed a few things missed after the first viewing. Those two watchtower automatons used coercion and hate in a twisted plot to recapture the kid. No one mentioned how the kid felt. That woman complained about how bad it was for her. How bitterly ironic it is when the man said they had a “fun night”. I would rather watch paint dry. I am not very articulate so please excuse the meandering. The kid was shunned because he was not toeing watchtower`s line. Hate rather than love was used to coerce the kid back. From watchtower`s rheumy eyes, the return should be to a fabricated entity known as a god. The kid did what it took to be reunited with his siblings and his progenitors. The entity was not in his equation to regain his loss. The kid will do just enough to stay within watchtower`s conduct parameters. I am bemused that there is not a great outcry aimed at the psychotic seven. Watchtower is more sinister and more dangerous than Jim Jones. This should chill peoples blood. As a very x jw I know what they are capable of. I believe that it will not end well.
Reply
withheld says:
June 5, 2015 at 7:08 pm
As a Jehovah Witness father with three young children I’m terrified about them becoming baptised. There is no way, or under any circumstances would I ever shun my children. And I know, I too would probably be disfellowshipped for this. I would love to leave this organization but there’s no way out. All of my family and friends are witnesses. I will do anything to keep my children from becoming baptised until they are of legal age and it’s their own choice.
Reply
danman says:
June 5, 2015 at 7:27 pm
So good to hear comments like “withheld”, I think there are many jw who are in similar thinking when it comes to child baptism. Your stand certainly is in more harmony with the scriptures. Jesus fully attained adulthood before baptism……what support does the GB have for haranguing jw parents to push their children into the baptismal pool? That is the real question.
Reply
Mara says:
June 5, 2015 at 7:34 pm
So infuriating when WT uses these experiences to try to prove that the emotional blackmail of shunning is loving and brings people back to the fold. For every person it brings back to WT, (for all the wrong reasons, I might add), there are probably 100 who avoid WT due to this sadistic practice. It was one of the very first things I finally had to admit was cruel and wrong…one of the main reasons I left the cult after 40 plus years! But they don’t feature experiences like mine on the program, do they!
Reply
Trish Karr says:
June 5, 2015 at 8:16 pm
Being raised in this cult I know exactly how they operate. Yes its called emotional blackmail where they teach their followers to cut their loved ones off should they leave the religion, and blackmail them to return back to the religion if they want to be loved by their families or loved ones! Feel free to watch my award winning Documentary which was made on the story of my life. I tell all. How I was raised in the Jehovahs Witness religion and left to create a life of my own. Im living proof its not too late to change your life because life is what you make it. You can see my film online its called “Witness my Journey from Jehovahs Witness to Australia’s Party Queen” hope you enjoy watching it. It may enlighten those that are finding life difficult since leaving the religion.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 6, 2015 at 12:30 am
Hi Trish,
Looks like when you left you not only threw the baby out with the bath water, but the entire kitchen sink too!
Can’t say I agree with your libidinous way of life or your moral abandon, but my thoughts are with you in your efforts to help those suffering from breast cancer.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:58 am
Hi everyone. There is another anonymous here. This is not the same anonymous above commenting as the one who comments often.
Reply
airborne says:
June 5, 2015 at 8:50 pm
What a cruel practice. Those parents are heartless.
Reply
steve says:
June 5, 2015 at 8:56 pm
Just wondering how this couple was “qualified” to work at Warwick when obviously not presiding over their household in a fine way? If their children are adults then what sacrifice have they made? If their children are underage then they shouldn’t qualify for extra privileges of sacred service.
Reply
jay says:
June 5, 2015 at 9:17 pm
if only things would change somehow and GB would allow reform then so many people wouldn’t be so messed up. I long to see the day when this organization changes and cleansed of its hypocrisy..
Reply
ScotWm says:
June 5, 2015 at 9:55 pm
In 1968, the 192 page book The Truth That Leads to Eternal Life was published by the Watchtower Society. Laying the ground for shunning appeared early on in chapter 3, paragraph 12 on page 16:
12. “As you examine God’s Word, you will learn that your love for God will be put to the test. There may be individuals, perhaps even close friends or relatives, who will not approve of your examining the Scriptures. (1 Peter 4:4; Matthew 10:36, 37) They may try to discourage you. They may do this in all sincerity, because they do not know the marvelous truths found in the Bible. Perhaps you can help them. In other cases the opposition may come from persons who have no love for God. If this should occur, remember, having God’s approval is far more important than having the approval of men. It is God, not man, who will give you eternal life if you love him above everyone and everything else. (Matthew 22: 37-39)”
Later on they add on more powerful scriptures, such as this one:
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters — yes, even his own life — he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:25-26).
Those who disagree with the Governing Body and those who try to save you from this cult must be shunned.
Reply
Kat says:
June 5, 2015 at 11:23 pm
How can they equate leaving an organization of false prophets to leaving God?
As if God would have anything to do with this organization of lying false prophets! they dump their own kids in exchange for following 7 deluded liars and false prophets. Sick
Reply
Andrew says:
June 6, 2015 at 12:01 am
It’s all so hypocritical really. My parents didnt want me around for 10 years after I left but when they got older and to the point where they needed me to care for them they changed their tune. And the elders were the ones who told them that the congregation was not in the position to help them as it doesn’t do aged care. This happened after my father was loudly trumpeting to one and all in hospital that the congregation would help them. When the elders got wind of this they told him to be quiet and let their socalled apostate son do all the work. Hypocrites really.
Reply
Kat says:
June 6, 2015 at 12:30 am
I know of an elder that has given talks on how children should be responsible for their ageing or ill parents, but yet he doesn’t care for his own JW mother instead his mothers sisters husband cares for her and he has been inactive for over ten years, he feeds cares for her board free, I asked her why doesn’t your son care for you why should my brother have to financially support you, her answer he has three children and a wife to look after, yet my brother has his wife and son and works full time, and he is ill has had buy pass surgery, the elder Son of the mother is over twenty five yrs younger than my brother.
The hypocrisy stinks, and told this elder son exactly what I think of his hypocrisy, he just walked away.
Reply
mpm says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:43 am
This is awful! I had just uploaded a video two days before expressing the hurt I have suffered from my parents doing this very thing to me.
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anonymous says:
June 6, 2015 at 9:22 am
mpm, I listened to your video and it does say exactly the same thing about your mother’s conditional love that the Society’s video of these two parents and how they looked at their son the very same way with only conditional love (not love but attention appearing to be love).
One of the very first things that new people are taught when they “study” the Bible with Witnesses is that they have to put God first in their lives, above all our relatives and friends. We were taught to do that but I was never under that much cult control that I could ever even think of saying such a despicable thing to one of my children as what your mother told to you.
It is so ironic in that Witnesses love to quote 2 Tim. 3:1-5 about how in the last days there would be critical times hard to deal with and one of those things depicting the last days would be having no natural affection and if any people perfectly depicts having no natural affection it is Jehovah’s Witnesses. They are the very epitome of having no natural affection.
Does the Society turn people into non-feeling, uncaring human beings or are non-feeling, uncaring people attracted to the Watchtower? Either way, they are non-feeling and uncaring and under cult mind control of a very evil Satanic organization.
People who are that controlled are capable of anything. They can be convinced that they are saving the lives of those disfellowshipped (or dance around like a chicken as under the hypnotic control of a hypnotist), but in the end, they are more convinced about the saving of their own lives at Armageddon than they are about saving the lives of their family and friends who have fallen away. It stands to reason (if a person is able to reason) that to shun a loved one just for not wanting to be a JW anymore, will only convince that other person more than anything that it truly is a non-Christian religion since Jesus taught love and forgiveness with the parable of the prodigal son.
The parents in this demonstration, show that they are arrogant and proud that they love the Organization more than their own children. In the Bible, arrogance and pride is not something that a God loves however. If these people were crying on stage, I might feel differently about them but they seemed very arrogant and proud to me. I don’t think that their children have any real feeling for them. I bet if you were to talk to their children, you might hear a very different story than the one they told on stage.
Reply
Tony says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:16 am
When 2 JW ladies showed up at my door about a month ago I told them how disgusted I am by their practice of shunning. One of them tried to justify it by comparing it to sending a child to their room. When I told them of people suffering PTSD as a result of shunning they left.
Reply
da' says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:27 am
@ Erik
There you go, perfectly said. Keep you mouth shut and your family is YOUR BUSINESS, especially when it comes to YOUR CHILDREN. People wont know or talk about what you havent revealed to them. You may also think confiding in a close friend will bring encouragement . Wrong , it only brings more drama .
Reply
Kat says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:45 am
mpm I viewed you video a couple of days ago, and really touched my heart, so sorry for what you are going through, and I love your work.
Reply
mpm says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:56 am
Hey Kat, thank you for the kind words. It was shocking to see this shunning video right after I had posted, so sad.
Reply
Kat says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:56 am
Going back jus to be with your family is a catch twenty two, you have your family but on the GB terms, and the agony of having to sit in every meeting while you just don’t agree is torment and one would feel like a hypocrite, its so sad, and it is emotional black mail.
Oh how I wish this religion would lose their charity status for this as its against human rights, and just maybe they would change.
This is what they print in the Awake for the public.
July 2009 Awake p29: “No one should be forced to worship in a way that he finds unacceptable or be made to choose between his beliefs and his family.
Reply
sirius says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:57 am
A few points of curiosity. How often do children return to the fold after being shunned, and what is THAT success rate? Do shunned children tend to rebel more? Is love conditional in the JW (faith) or unconditional? And lastly, if I were to put on a catholic hat I would silently close the door(shun) on all JWs, Mormons, Seventh Advents and anyone else who claims to be Christian but denies the Deity of Christ, Apostolic Faith and brings another teaching of another Jesus?
The early church never practiced shunning of excommunicated members. So, if a shunned female was on the roadside with a flat tire not one JW would come to her aid? This is what I find cruel & unusual punishment in the mind set of the JWs!
IMHO
Dogstar
Reply
Kat says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:08 am
Interesting when I became a JW I was asked to write a letter to denounce my baptism of my former faith, I was never baptised even as a baby in another religion, so I didn’t have to but many did, including a few of my relatives that were later converted.
But none of my relatives ever shunned any of us, because we chose a different belief, they were to pleased and now I know why, but still they never shunned us or treated us badly, always invited for get togethers, tolerated our no birthdays and xmas.
But as JW we are told to shun our own flesh and blood if they chose to leave even if they don’t join another religion, even when they are children. Its a cult.
Reply
rikos says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:22 am
every time Jehovah witnesses are coming to my mind, is like some one gives me knives and remind me the years I lost in this organization under the deceptive of influence. the middle ages is still here.
Reply
Michele says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:41 am
This makes me sick to my stomach. It just boggles me how parents can think emotional blackmail is loving. If a child only comes back to the “truth” because he misses his family, NOT because he actually believes in the religion, is a joke in itself. The mind control and endless indoctrination that convinces so called “loving parents” to behave this way is disgusting to me. I should know. I dealt with it for 5 years. The pain this causes to everyone is despicable.
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← Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
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Posted on June 5, 2015
In a video clip from the 2015 convention series, Robert and Brenda Sutton are praised for shunning their child
In a video clip from the 2015 convention series, Robert and Brenda Sutton are praised for shunning their child
It is a predicament that all too many visitors to this website, myself included, find themselves in: believing Jehovah’s Witness relatives cutting off all contact in the belief they must do so in order to show loyalty to God.
And there appears to be no sign of Watchtower relaxing its cruel shunning policy, which it has repeatedly denied even having – especially if a video from the 2015 regional convention series is anything to go by.
In the video, which has just started to be circulated on Facebook, a JW couple identified as Robert and Brenda Sutton are interviewed about their experience raising three children. It emerges that one of their children was disfellowshipped not long after getting a new job where there was “questionable association with coworkers.”
The Suttons, who are now working at the Watchtower bethel facilities in Warwick, unashamedly talk about how they “cut off all association” with their child after he or she was disciplined by elders. They describe how the shunning eventually led to him or her returning to the organization.
After they give their experience, the speaker praises the couple for their “excellent example” as they exit the stage to applause from the audience.
What makes this video especially difficult to watch is how the parents who did the shunning are quick to portray themselves as victims in this scenario, with seemingly no thought for the trauma of ostracism inflicted on their child.
“It was one of the hardest things that I ever had to face,” relates Brenda Sutton. “I had many sleepless nights praying to Jehovah, but I came to realize that we needed to trust in what Proverbs 22 and verse 6 says: ‘train a boy in the way he should go, even when he grows old he will not depart from it.'”
In other words: train up a boy to believe what you believe without question, and if he grows up and walks away from it of his own free will you can bank on him returning if you are prepared to emotionally blackmail him.
“We began to question ourselves as parents,” says Robert Sutton. “Where did we go wrong? Were we too strict? Were we too lenient? Just what did we do that was wrong?”
Guilt and self-loathing are typical by-products of cult indoctrination, and few things induce these toxic feelings quite as well as an adult son or daughter walking away from the faith despite the best efforts of believing parents to super-impose their beliefs on him or her.
“But one thing we did for sure, and that’s in addition to multiple times with praying to Jehovah,” added Robert Sutton. “We made sure that we cling to our spiritual routine.”
Yes – staying busy, busy, busy in “Jehovah’s service” helps keep those feelings of guilt at bay. You may have let the Creator down by failing to calibrate your child’s brain to his specifications, but at least you can put in extra ministry time to compensate.
“What was it that moved your child to return to Jehovah?” asks the speaker.
“Well it was the missed association with the family,” says Brenda Sutton proudly and unflinchingly. “And here’s why, I had always told our kids… ‘I would die for you, I love you, would die for you, but if you ever leave Jehovah I wouldn’t be there’. And they knew that we wouldn’t waver on this. But sad to say, and as hard as it was, we had to cut off all association.”
Speaking for myself, those who are being shunned by JW relatives don’t want their relatives to die for them. They want them to live with them and be in their lives.
A person could easily find himself or herself in a situation where they choose to die for a complete stranger, perhaps a small child on a road as a car approaches, but that doesn’t mean they have full love for the person they are saving. They are merely showing basic human solidarity for a vulnerable person in peril.
Real love is when you stand by your child no matter what, through good times and bad, and sadly JW parents who capitulate to the cruel and baseless rules about shunning can never lay claim to such love. Their love is conditional – based on their offspring sharing the beliefs they have been indoctrinated to accept, usually by their own parents.
Speaking as someone who has recently become a father, I know that wild horses couldn’t pull me away from my baby daughter – especially not something as frivolous and petty as ideological differences.
It saddens me to think my father once felt his own love for me was unbreakable, perhaps when he once cradled me in his arms when I was a baby. The fact that a cult can erode such strong parental bonds only underscores for me how corrosive Watchtower ideology is, and how important it is that it be combated, refuted and dismantled wherever possible.
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Further reading…
◾Friendly Atheist article
◾If shunning loved ones is scriptural, why does Watchtower publicly deny the practice?
◾JWsurvey articles on shunning
◾JWfacts article on disfellowshipping and shunning
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← Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
142 Responses to 2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
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Melka says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:42 am
This is all on the Organization as far as I’m concerned. I know plenty of parents who are supposed to be shunning their kids, but still communicate, and I have even myself in the past thought they weren’t doing the right thing by talking and communicating with their children, since there was no reason to come back if they didn’t feel “alone” and punished. It’s so disgusting. But being a formerly brainwashed individual, I can understand. And you are honestly so worried about that person dying at Armageddon. It’s unfathomable that this is a trap just to keep you in so that they can get their money, and you’re not allowed to talk to that person who might have license to google “history of Jehovah’s Witnesses” or something like that. That’s not even the thing that woke me up, but once I did, I more than anything else was so disappointed in myself that I actually shunned people that I did love. Mrs. Sutton did love her child, even though he was DF’d, there’s no question in my mind. We just need to see the demise of the Organization. These poor people think they’re saving the lives of their loved ones, by shunning them. If her child stayed out of the organization, she would probably go to her grave worrying about how her child will die at Armageddon. They’re mentally captive, and it’s hard to get free.
Reply
rikos says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:51 am
The father: i am thinking where I was wrong? you don’t know where you when wrong? Is very simple. You and you wife teach your children the lies of the watchtower, and your children want to find out the truth, man The Hitler paranoid of inhumanity have contaminated the Jehovah’s witnesses brains. Nether he’s children have the right to examine the watchtower teachings in order to please seven man, and three stupid elders.
Reply
sparlock says:
June 6, 2015 at 7:19 am
“Yes – staying busy, busy, busy in “Jehovah’s service” helps keep those feelings of guilt at bay. You may have let the Creator down by failing to calibrate your child’s brain to his specifications, but at least you can put in extra ministry time to compensate.”
Thats exactly what i see in my mother. Her children didn’t become witnesses and she says beeing a pioneer is the only way to cope with this situation. She would rather kill herself than stop preaching 70 hours a month for the organization.
Reply
Ted says:
June 6, 2015 at 7:52 am
The parable of the “Prodigal Son” demolishes the shunning
practice. The son was not kept on a short leash, he was
allowed to follow his own inclination, even though it was a
bad decision.
The father imposed no conditions on the sons return. The
way back was always open. “No strings attached”.
When the son did return. There was no meeting of village
elders to determine repentance, or whether a period of
probation was necessary. There was no legalistic system
interfering in what was purely a family concern.
The father saw the son in the distance and ran to him and
embraced him, showing spontaneous unconditional love.
The son then acknowledged his error without any coercion.
The joyful reunion of father and son was not accomplished
by shunning, ( which often results in a permanent rift ).
But by “Unconditional love”.
Reply
Pickled brain says:
June 6, 2015 at 9:25 am
@Ted . Your Comments are SO TRUE! The PRODIGAL SON is the WAY Jesus showed us how to treat Repentant Sinners…….INSTANT ASSOCIATION
NO JUDICIAL COMMITTEE of 3 ELDERS!!! NO ISOLATING the Repentant one for Maybe A YEAR or SO until 3 FALLIBLE ELDERS choose to Re-Instate the person or not!!! WE ARE ALL SINNERS & FALL SHORT of the Glory of God(Romans 3v23)
The PHARASAICAL 7 BROOKLYN GB MEN!!! GO Beyond ‘What is Written in Scripture’ & in Revelation that is Punishable with Death!!!(Rev.22v18,19)
Reply
Rick says:
June 7, 2015 at 8:09 am
Very good way to look at it Ted, I’ve often thought the same whenever I hear the example of the prodigal son used. Also, the son was hungry and homeless so he came back to live with his dad to be able to enjoy what he had before. The dad didn’t think twice, his love for the son was big and unconditional. The JWs should really “read” into this story and apply it in their lives but as long as the brain cord is connected to the mother ship (WT) I see very little chance of changes.
Reply
David says:
June 10, 2015 at 9:25 am
That is a great point. The son was away from his father not because of being shunned. The son departed and was way, but his father was ready to show him love in any way possible. He did not place any conditions upon the reinstatement of their relationship. For as much as JW’s like to use this parable, they completely ignore this important part of it.
Reply
just asking says:
June 6, 2015 at 9:45 am
I simply hate this organization, I really don’t know why I committed myself to it. I’ve grown up in this thing. they’re the only people know, they’re the ones who connect me to all my work. I would really wanna leave bt this whole disfellowshiping thing terrifies me. If I fade, all will know & will ask qns. I just don’t know.
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anonymous says:
June 6, 2015 at 11:28 am
@just asking, when I stopped going to meetings (after 50 years) several asked me questions but didn’t want to know why I stopped going, except for one very nice person (not baptized but attended meetings) but most avoid me. Thank goodness, when she asked me why I quit, she assured me that she wouldn’t tell the elders and come to find out, she also hates the religion but didn’t have anybody else to confide in and when we got to talking, we shared a common belief that it’s a fraud. Her daughter who I studied with and was getting really involved, is fading also. My husband has told me that he hardly ever sees either of them anymore at the meetings (which makes me really happy).
If it’s any consolation, what are the Thursday night meetings like where you attend? If your Kingdom Hall is like I think most Kingdom Halls, there’s maybe half the attendance as when there’s a Circuit Overseer visiting. My husband said that last Thursday night, there was hardly anybody there and one of the elders gave a congregation needs talk which basically telling the congregation there was nothing to worry because they see the attendance being so low.
I had the courage to stop going and I think there’s a lot who force themselves to put their bodies in those seats because they are afraid of being stigmatized if they start missing meetings but you have to live your life your way. Don’t be a puppet to those people.
Don’t get to be 60 years old before realizing that there is no real love at the Kingdom Hall. It’s all conditional (which isn’t real love anyway). You don’t need that kind of love. We all deserve real friends and real love.
I personally wouldn’t write a letter of disassociation because in effect, you are saying that you are disfellowshipping them. It is all up to the person. If I disassociate myself, then I know that two of my children would be compelled to shun me and I don’t want them to have to go through that. If I didn’t care about anybody at the Hall, then I would write a letter of disassociation but I care too much about my children to do that to them and there are a bunch of really great people at my old Hall that I don’t want to do that too.
If you read Crisis of Conscience, you will see that there is no way that any God could be backing the Watchtower organization. It’s a fraud, passing itself off as a legitimate charity and sooner or later, the truth will come out and we will all be vindicated. It can’t go on forever. At least I hope I live long to see it collapse.
If you are young, please be your own person and don’t let that Organization control the rest of your life, just for fear of being disfellowshipped. There are real people out there who will be your friend and you will never find that in the Organization.
Reply
Wanderer says:
June 7, 2015 at 1:15 am
@anonymous another fantastic post! There is nothing more conditional than the unconditional love from JW’s!
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J*L*C*R says:
June 7, 2015 at 2:26 pm
Outstanding comment Anonymous! You hit the nail on the head for a lot of people.
I got deep into the fading process when I started community college and became very active on campus. I enrolled right after high school, when most of my JW friends were pressuring me to pioneer. Needless to say that ruffled a-lot of feathers at the hall. It was not until the 2013 convention when I heard “any continued education is a temptation to ensnare yourself in Satan’s system, through bad association and etc; if you go to college you are a tool of the devil.”
I heard that and immediately walked out of the assembly hall, enough was enough. Three generations of my family gave their youth to the organization; I refuse to do the same. I was pressured into getting baptized at 14, that was a huge mistake.
Stay strong, having family involved is the worst part, I share your pain. Expressing myself here has helped me a lot, as you know. The healing process is long but it’s still one foot in front of the other. Know that you are not alone in your struggle.
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Observer says:
June 10, 2015 at 1:17 pm
Your true family will love you unconditionally
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Lee says:
June 9, 2015 at 6:00 pm
Great post, well done, I am fading too, and I refused to be visited by the elders.
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Queen Elsa says:
June 6, 2015 at 12:37 pm
I’m in the same situation… :( I think many are.
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kofybean says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:26 pm
“I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence.”
– Frederick Douglass
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Shanti says:
June 7, 2015 at 11:27 am
There are many good articles available on the internet regarding the “Art of Fading”. Here is one.
http://thejehovahswitnesses.org/leaving-the-watchtower-fading.php
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just asking says:
June 6, 2015 at 9:54 am
How did I get myself into this trap?
Why did I bow to the pressure of getting baptised @ 13. One is better off a worldly man that a disfellowshiped jw.
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Finn Sawyer says:
June 6, 2015 at 4:47 pm
Because…like me you were only 13, and that says it all.
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J*L*C*R says:
June 7, 2015 at 2:30 pm
Same here… I was 14.
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Al says:
June 6, 2015 at 9:47 pm
It’s not your fault u were 13 how were u supposed to know. I was baptized at 12 with no understanding of the implications that would have later. I just quit going altogether 2 years ago and it is a total relief. So much anxiety every meeting and not feeling like you are doing enough gone!
I’m lucky though my family will still talk to me. I basically told them it wasn’t for me anymore but didn’t go into anymore detail and they left it at that. I thought about dissociating but that would result in my family shunning me since my dads an elder. So Im just inactive and am content with that. People in the hall will eventually give up trying to convince you, and you can start getting on with your life without interruption.
Sites like this one among others helped me to realize I am not the only one who went through this. Your not alone!
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ruth lee says:
June 6, 2015 at 12:55 pm
hmm funnily enough i had a coversation with my children this week both not nbtzd pubs yet we discussed df a bit my boy cannot get his tender heart around this poor boy i will have to toughen the little blighter up! irony folks i took both my children in my arms and promised them no matter what they do i will never ever ever shun ignore or turn a cold shoulder to them until i draw my last dying breath thay are my wonderful gift from my creator so why would i ever trash that draw your own conclusions feeling a little stronger day by day
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Ted says:
June 6, 2015 at 1:05 pm
In this interview we have spelled out for us, the real reason,
why many disfellowshipped ones return.
The Mother was asked. “What was it that moved your Son to
return to JHVH”? — She replied, “The missed association with
the Family”.
So it was affection for the family, not the religion, that motivated
his return. Now the Son is compelled to go through a
meaningless routine, just going through the motions of being a JW.
Not worshipping in Spirit and Truth.
The interview then, demonstrated that shunning. As well as exerting
cruel pressure, does not produce genuine Christians, and serves no
worthwhile purpose.
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Honza says:
June 10, 2015 at 5:22 am
yes, yes!
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kofybean says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:12 pm
“but if you ever leave Jehovah I wouldn’t be there”
It would seem to me they have an issue conflating God and Religion, when they are seperate entities.
Is it not possible to be close to God and reject religion? Because thats exactly what Jesus did.
It would seem the quote really meant, “if you do not follow the philosophies this organization has set, no matter how they may change…”
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Thetroof says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:25 pm
This org Is so cruel. I cant believe I fell for baptism at age 12. I was too young to understand anything
The GB is equal to Satan who can turn into an angel of light.
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Kat says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:40 pm
Ted excellent post
“The Mother was asked. “What was it that moved your Son to return to JHVH”? — She replied, “The missed association with
the Family”.
“The interview then, demonstrated that shunning. As well as exerting cruel pressure, does not produce genuine Christians, and serves no worthwhile purpose.
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J Brown says:
June 7, 2015 at 12:21 am
There are a number of excellent arguments being made here. I’m going to take the liberty of re-posting one in particular that necessitates repeating:
“Susan says:
June 5, 2015 at 5:19 pm
What hypocrites the JW org is. In the June 2013 Watchtower they say the following about couples who use the silent treatment: “some spouses use the silent treatment as a form of revenge…some as a means to get what they want…when it is used a means to retaliate or manipulate, it prolongs conflict and erodes respect.” So the Watchtower Society knows full well that they are seeking to manipulate members who leave them by shunning them. They isolate them and make them feel that they are completely alone in the world and use shunning to get them to return. This has resulted in countless suicides. I personally know of SIX! This barbaric treatment needs to stop.”
Thank you Susan! What specific article were you quoting from? Is it from the public or study article of WT magazine?
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anonymous says:
June 7, 2015 at 4:04 am
@J Brown, that quote is from the June 2013 Awake article, entitled “How to End the Silent Treatment” on pages 4,5.
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Jbrown says:
June 7, 2015 at 10:53 am
Thank you Anonymous. Found it! Wow just wow! I’ve heard of people who speak out both sides of their mouth. WT takes the cake on this!
A must read: June 2013 Awake “How to End the Silent Treatment” on pages 4,5.
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Innocent Son says:
June 7, 2015 at 1:56 am
So many excellent comments on this article.My brother who was a Elder at the time was completely broken when his eldest son rejected the ‘Truth’ He followed the Watchtowers’ instructions and disowned him.This gut -renching cruel practice contributed to his Mental Breakdown and demise.A parents’ love should be unconditional, just like the parable of the prodigal son…
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just asking says:
June 7, 2015 at 2:22 am
I don’t really understand why they keep the majority of us holed up in this org by blackmail.
What’s the use of having a big membership when over a half are nt interested? Why can’t they just provide room for baptism cancellation especially for some of us who were minors at the time of baptism? I am in a meeting right now but all am listening to is nothing but rubbish. I even can’t believe I once believed this nonsense. THIS GONNA BE MY LAST ONE.
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anonymous says:
June 7, 2015 at 4:25 am
@just asking, when I became convinced of all the lies of the Society, I stopped cold turkey with going to meetings but it still took me quite a few months of worrying what if the Society is right about Armageddon?.
If a lot of people are like me, the meetings were boring and tedious and I had to force myself to go in service each month and I dreaded assemblies and I hated to think of all those friends at the assemblies who wouldn’t see my face there at meetings and assemblies. It was all those things that made me keep going.
Now that I see how completely what a fraud it is, I only pity all those who are still in that situation and can’t get out except to stop going to the meetings like I did and then have to go through what I am going through right now, knowing what the real “truth” is but not being able to tell them.
The thing is though, that we have no way of conversing with all those who are still going to the meetings to find out just how they feel. I would bet though that the scare of Armageddon is what keeps the majority going even though in their heart of hearts, they wonder if it’s all bunk and they are being made fools of?
That is why Lloyd’s idea this web site is simply genius!!!
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Alan says:
June 7, 2015 at 6:00 am
I can see a lot of parallels between the apostate shunning issue and the trials of the LGBT community. Being such a strong advocate (without exception) for human rights, I regard John Cedars as being something of a silent hero for this oppressed group, and I’m sure he, more than most, can relate to their experience of social isolation. As the recent developments with Bruce-now Caitlyn-Jenner have shown, there is still considerable resistance to enlightened human expression, and shunning must be recognised for what it is: a cynical weapon that is used to limit our freedoms. Let us all stand together on this issue, regardless of our sexuality, creed, colour, beliefs, etc. Take courage from Bruce’s decision to become Caitlyn, regardless of the hateful reaction of an increasingly small-minded minority. We shall win this war for the sake of all humanity. It’s our time now!
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Sarah says:
June 8, 2015 at 5:46 pm
Agree!
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rob says:
June 7, 2015 at 10:04 am
I knew so many individuals that got reinstated just for the ability to associate with their family and friends.
After their reinstatement most of them never went in service again and rarely attended meetings – but they got rid of the shunning.
This proves to me that reinstatement has absolutely nothing to do with spiritual guidance – just another crazy procedural and pharasiacal rule.
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danman says:
June 7, 2015 at 11:33 am
Just asking, asked:
“I don’t really understand why they keep the majority of us holed up in this org by blackmail.
What’s the use of having a big membership when over a half aren’t interested?”
All because of one man Joseph Rutherford. A pompous self centered (charlatan) who considered himself appointed by Jehovah and the angels to interpret God’s Word (?) the bible. This man who enjoyed not one but two 16 cylinder Cadillac’s, fine silk shirts, a farm on Staten Island (my mother his personal maid), illegal beer and wine cellar during the prohibition, hundreds and thousands of then known Bible Students at his every beck and call. Then had the gual to build a mansion in San Diego and say it was built for David and other bible characters, who were coming back very soon. By the way, my father drove those caddies for him, and also carried a 45 Smith and Wesson automatic for da judges protection. My sister has the license to prove it in our family records.
This fellow is responsible for almost all of the jw doctrine still followed today. He ushered in fanatical stands on Christendom, neutrality, flag salute, no blood, no christmas, no birthdays, 144,000 vs ‘other sheep’, only organizational appointments of elders etc., and he personally cemented these teachings by making outlandish asserstions regarding ‘millions now living will never die’, ancient bible characters coming back to life on earth in 1925 and even after never gave up on it for several years thereafter.
He ruled with an iron fist, he was chief writer, chief editor, chief of all chiefs, my father said that the judge could tell someone to jump off the cliff, and that person would feel hard pressed to no do as he was told. Talk about strong personality, he had one and more. He personally mentored Knathan Knorr, Fred Franz (of 1975 fame), Milton Henchel, and other neophytes who were to take over the helm upon this charlatan’s death in 1942.
The answer to your question imo is simple, it is men who have accepted other men as representatives for God himself. These people actually convince themselves that even when the utterances of these self proclaimed men of God are proven absolute garbage, with no evidence or even semblance of accuracy, the errors were allowed by Jehovah God…..so that future arrogant self appointed men of god can correct the errors (by new light) of the old former men of god. Get it?
Belief in any interpretation of the bible message is in and of itself giving full trust in man. Because you cannot point to any religious doctrine, policy, rule, or pronouncement, that does not somewhere sometime originate from a man or group of men. Right?
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
June 7, 2015 at 1:04 pm
Do not worry, Jehovah’s Witnesses (including those parents) are imitators of their god Jehovah when it comes to coercing people who courageously reject his/her dictatorship.
(Amos 7:17) . . .this is what Jehovah says: “Your wife will become a prostitute in the city, and your sons and your daughters will fall by the sword. Your land will be apportioned out with a measuring line, and you yourself will die in an unclean land; and Israel will surely go into exile from its land.”’”
You see, they resemble their god!!
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Alex says:
June 7, 2015 at 1:13 pm
The fact that this practice of shunning is encouraged by the WTBTS, of which I am also a victim too indicates so strongly to me that this organisation in Britain needs to be investigated fully by the Charity Commission and put to task to.prove how it benefits the community by actively encouraging the tearing apart of families, the foundation of any community. It needs to be stripped of its charity status, and its tax free position and exposed for what this mind numbing cult is: A dictatorial, ruthless and self absorbed movement out to destroy lives, spiritually, psychologically and in some cases physically. It has to go!!!
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Excelsior! says:
June 8, 2015 at 8:33 am
Alex,
Have you complained to the Charity Commission about shunning yet?
If not, I strongly urge you to do so. You can complain online!
I encourage all of us Brits to do so if we have not already!
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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BeenMisead says:
June 7, 2015 at 1:18 pm
I hate the expression in the “The Truth”.
Here’s why:
Was it true when Rutherford said in 1919?:
O “Millions Now Living Will Never Die.”
O “Armageddon is coming in 1925.”
O “Abraham, Moses and other notable men of faith would be resurrected in 1925.”
Was it true in 1969 when Nathan Knorr and Fred Franz said?:
O “If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things.”
O “Armageddon is coming on or around 1975.”
O “The generation of 1914 will not pass away until the end comes.”
O “In the 1980’s they said: The end would come before the end of the 20th Century.”
—————————————————
All of the above was NOT true!! So if anything it should be called “The Falsehood”!!
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Misha Anouk says:
June 7, 2015 at 2:42 pm
I found this video especially hard to watch as I imagine my parents would say the exact same thing. This organization is getting more and more gross by the minute.
On another note: Is this the same guy who has been featured on the monthly broadcast?
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Sarah says:
June 7, 2015 at 2:48 pm
Oh wow. I can almost guarantee they use my parents for this part. Either that or they will have to sit there ashamed and crying. I’m not sure which hurts worse.
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anonymous says:
June 7, 2015 at 4:15 pm
@Sarah, I can’t think of anything that could hurt worse than having your parents ashamed of you just because you don’t share their religious views.
No matter how good a person you are or what you have accomplished in life, you are nothing to your parents if you don’t share their religion.
A person can divorce a cruel mate and go on with your life, but everyone needs a parent’s love. What young person can afford a therapist when they are being blackmailed into faking a belief in their parent’s religion just so they can stay in their parent’s good graces?
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Sarah says:
June 8, 2015 at 5:49 pm
Thankyou for those thoughts:( I sometimes feel like people are starting to expect me to move on. But I will never get over the rejection from my parents, sisters and brother. I know that.
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anonymous says:
June 9, 2015 at 7:07 am
Sarah, this is a really good video for all of us experiencing Watchtower abuse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IshP0WONWqI
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ScotWm says:
June 7, 2015 at 7:30 pm
It’s interesting how the Watchtower Society has presented two opposing views on how to deal with children who have gone wrong. Contrast this assembly shunning experience with the video in the link below, where no shunning occurred.
In the Watchtower video “The Prodigal Returns”, we are presented with an upper-middle class family in which two brothers work with their father in a construction business. The family constantly dwells on pleasing Jehovah by spending every possible moment in personal study, attending meetings and going out in field service.
Then, the younger brother decides to pursue a worldly career and his older brother (who would have made a great Nazi) tries to shame his little brother into giving up this idea. The little brother leaves home, goes to the big city and ends up wallowing in sin and degradation.
Once the younger brother realizes his mistake, he returns home to the open arms of his parents and his congregation. All is forgiven — except by the older brother who feels resentment because his father has lavished affection on the younger brother who sinned and ignored the older brother’s total submission to Watchtower proclamations.
Finally, the family in the video, who did not shun their child, is reunited and they all live happily ever after — just like the assembly family who did shun their child. Now we have two Watchtower approved methods which can be used to bring prodigals back into the fold.
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/videos/prodigal-son-returns/#?insightsearch_id=0364613b-4340-4aec-90a7-193f31ddf17d&insightsearch_result_index=0
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John Baptist says:
June 7, 2015 at 9:03 pm
What a Joke these people have come really completely delusional. And when you become that way then you become psychotic in nature eventually. Your living in a altered reality without any regard for your actions upon your own flesh and blood. These are mentally sick people devoting their life to men and not the God of the bible
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Vivian says:
June 7, 2015 at 10:33 pm
What do you all think? Are the seven guys making the calls in NY simply indoctrinated coupled with not very thoughtful and thorough in their reflections or are they completely aware of the farce they have continued? Are they simply models and heirs of indoctrination trying to save people and their families from armageddon? Do they truly and honestly believe they are being moved along and used by a god? I would think that before I could believe my actions and thoughts were being inspired by god I would have to be clearly and completely mentally sick. But, indoctrination is a very strong strong force. I cant decide. In the lightest brightest terms i would call the men “irresponsible” and “thoughtless” and at worst, “monsters” and disgusting immoral garbage.
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anonymous says:
June 8, 2015 at 2:51 am
@Vivian, my personal opinion is that Lett thinks he is in the “truth” because of the way he gestures when he gives his speeches. It’s like he’s using every point on the speech counsel slip that we got at the Ministry School when we were giving talks and being counseled but the others don’t seem to care about gestures etc. I think if Lett realized he was caught up in a huge scam, he wouldn’t care about getting G’s on his speech counsel slip.
When Losch gives his talks, he reads them and he is always referencing the Watchtower and rarely references the Bible. He says it like this: “The Watchtower says this and the Watchtower says that”. I think Losch is not stupid and realizes it’s a scam but doesn’t know how to disillusion 8 million people with coming out and telling the truth and basically destroying all their hopes and dreams and admitting to the world that they had devoted their lives to nothing and even lost lives due to blood. If that is what has happened to these men, then to me, that would have to be the worst position to be in because it would mean that they really do have a conscience but are caught in a trap they can’t get out of.
David Splane I think knows it is a scam and doesn’t know how to escape. When he gives talks, he seems like he’s in some kind of agony with worry written all over his face.
Sam Herd (with his gold watches) seems to me to know it’s a scam but will take it if it means power and prestige and doesn’t care about the rank and file.
The rest, it seems like to me, are like non thinking ostriches with their heads buried in the sand rather than face reality (big bodies and small brains).
My old Kingdom Hall is full of ostriches and I was one of them until about a year ago so I know how it happens. It happened to the best of us.
If I had a conscience and had any doubts at all and I was one of the Governing Body members, I’d be so torn, that I don’t know how I could live through it without quitting like Ray Franz did.
That is what makes me wonder if they have consciences or not or are just so worried about what it would do to 8 million people to find out it is all a scam.
Maybe they can’t even tell their own wives about any of their doubts because they are too afraid to. They can’t confide in anybody either, just like the rest of us can’t.
I can’t think of a more hideous situation to be put into.
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Vivian says:
June 9, 2015 at 9:09 pm
Yes i agree it would be a terrible place to be in if you began to doubt/ saw the facade once you were at the top. If they were to topple the organization, dismantle it, what would happen to all these older ones that have given their lives and hopes and futures to the org. Some bad stuff would happen.
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Mike says:
June 7, 2015 at 11:40 pm
Hello Lloyd I hope you don’t mind me using your first name.
If you haven’t (which I doubt) have a read of Ray Franz
In Search of Christian Freedom, Ch10 Sheperds of the Flock and Ch11 The Misuse of Disfellowshipping I recommend it to everybody who read your last blog.
Thank you for this site and your courage.
Mike Sydney Australia
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Silent admirer says:
June 8, 2015 at 2:00 am
This is the idiot organization my cousin seeks to follow. To what levels of depravity these JW’s have to go to for him to open his eyes. Curiously he has never considered that by his own standards , his father should have called my cousin apostate(He is Hindu) and kicked my cousin out of his life.
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StrongHaiku says:
June 8, 2015 at 6:37 am
Thank you for the latest post/video and all of the work that you do, Cedars. This is a painful and difficult subject and you are adept at handling such with honesty, insight, and compassion.
There have already been many beautiful and heartfelt comments posted. Not much I can add but one perspective:
As a person who was disfellowshipped, I felt for many years the guilt and shame borne out of the belief that my family and Organization had the “moral high ground”. I no longer hold to that illusion and neither should anyone else out there who has been kicked out (or walked out), shunned, rejected, and discarded.
One important thing to note is that the people in this video, like many other JWs (including my family), are not basing this decision (and other decisions) on an evaluation of moral tenets but in following orders of their religion and leaders. They have been indoctrinated to relinquish their ability to think for themselves and instead of exercising their moral agency they simply fall back to “just following orders”. This, arguably, is an amoral stance. Part of me has some compassion for them. But, history will not be as kind. Modern society has come to understand that “just following orders” is indefensible.
I noticed a number of posts by people who stay in so as to avoid being shunned. My heart goes out to all of them. I cannot and will not speak for them or their circumstances but, as for me, I no longer feel compelled to hold on to my family. In 30 years, the only time they contacted me is when they wanted money or something else. Their love is conditional. Their currency is shame and guilt. They happily and mindlessly adhere to the rules and use love as leverage. I have no need of that and, frankly, I refuse to negotiate with extortionists. What I gave up I have more than gained. There are better people just about everywhere else.
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Beige DelFuego says:
June 8, 2015 at 2:44 pm
My family,well,the ones left in the cult,are cherry pickers as well.They pick and choose which parts of the bible suits them at any particular time.Incredibly greedy and parasitic,none of them have real jobs,they just wait till a family member dies,and then they go to court to see what they can get.Often times,the more immediate family members of the deceased,are still in shock about the death,and are not really even willing to fight.Therefore,its a win for the vultures.
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DAC says:
June 8, 2015 at 5:19 pm
To StrongHaiku,
That was an incredible post. Couldn’t have said it better.
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gameisover says:
June 8, 2015 at 6:48 am
And what about kids that completely shun their elderly parents?
That’s even more pathetic.
That is what is happening to us.
I feel sure even those from ISIS don’t do that t their parents or to their children.
THis is truly an evil cult masquerading for the true religion.
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James Broughton says:
June 8, 2015 at 8:16 am
Gameisover is correct. An evil cult masquerading for the true religion. The only ones who can’t see that are the JWs themselves. But there is hope. Many of us were there once and we came through!!!
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just asking says:
June 8, 2015 at 8:23 am
JF Rutherford put it right when he referred to his “religion as a racket & a snare”
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Christian Sparlock Freedom says:
June 8, 2015 at 10:50 am
Great Article
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just asking says:
June 8, 2015 at 12:03 pm
Recently an elder called me asking for a report because the Co was coming. I asked him if that is all he cares abt, a report not the reporter. I had not appeared for some time at the meetings. I told him, He just made me realise that they really loved me.
He laughed, I knew he’d not understood me. I hung up. He immediately called back still asking for the report & explained how it was important to update my card before the co visit. I told him I never preached. He then told me to get serious. I told him I loved him & feel the love.
What am saying is that nobody cares abt your wellbeing @ the kh, all they care abt is how active you’re in their activities.
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M Saurus says:
June 9, 2015 at 9:13 am
Same thing happened to our family about 3 years ago right when we started to fade. An elder called us to get our time since we hadn’t turned it in for several months (we hadn’t preached, and had been to maybe 2-3 meetings in several months). The CO was coming that week. We told him we had no time to turn in. He said he’d put us down for an hour for each month – surely we’d mentioned the truth to someone – we said no we had not – not sure what he did – but he would rather lie about our time than ask us what our issues were.
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John Baptist says:
June 8, 2015 at 12:43 pm
I just brought myself to watch the video while trying to be as objective as possible about what was being said. All i can say is the demonstration was totally scripted and staged and not from the heart. mmmm i wonder why DuH! Those parents should be ashamed of themselves and put in a mental institution for the atrocities they have brought upon their children.
Stepford brainwashed people. Im happy the son rebelled and its only a matter of time when he gets stronger and smarter and leaves for GOOD!
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Beige DelFuego says:
June 8, 2015 at 2:40 pm
So,please help me to understand.The children are taught to think,they go out and see the world,and when they come up with ideas that vary from their parent’s religion,they are shunned? Not able to speak to the rest of the family that is still in the church?How is this love?What is the incentive to ‘come back to the fold”? Its blackmail,isnt it?
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anonymous says:
June 8, 2015 at 3:37 pm
@Beige Delfuego, JW kids are not taught to think. They are taught to believe JW dogma and only JW dogma and if they do start to think and start wanting solid evidence like how do we prove that Jerusalem was not destroyed in 586-587 B.C.E., they will be told to “wait on Jehovah” and if the Society is wrong that the Society will change the doctrine that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 B.C.
The problem is that the Society has been proven wrong in many areas and since those teachings are essential to the religion living or dying, the Society will never change those core beliefs.
If a child gets baptized (shamed into it, if they don’t want to do it on their own at a very early age), then once they start to question core beliefs and want solid answers after being baptized (which they won’t get any answers that make any sense because those core beliefs are all man-made doctrines and not Bible based) the child has to make a decision: Either stay in the religion and go along to get along or start wanting answers (which they won’t get and told to “wait on Jehovah and finally realizing they have been scammed) or fade (considered weak and bad association but can still be talked to) or disassociate (write a letter which then determines that they are disfellowshippng themselves and shunned as bad association).
No matter how you slice it, children are coerced and tricked into getting baptized at an early age and can only associate with other Witness kids while they are under their parents’ roof so they aren’t allowed to make friends outside of the religion and so when they leave the religion and they have been baptized, they face a life of being shunned. Children or even adult Bible studies are never told anything except what the Watchtower wants them to see so they never hear anything else except good things about the JW religion and never anything bad. The Watchtower counts on children and any Bible study being ignorant about the Bible and they are all ignorant about the real history of the Watchtower organization before getting baptized.
Nobody in the religion is allowed to go onto so-called “apostate” web sites or read any literature that is critical of the Society. If they do read literature or do go onto “apostate” web sites and find out about all the lies and cover-ups, they are not allowed to tell anybody about it (even people outside the religion) or they will be called before a committee and disfellowshipped for apostasy if it has been found out what they talked about it to anybody.
What the Society will tell the person is that they brought “reproach” on Jehovah but what they really mean is that they cast dispersions on the Watchtower religion.
The Witnesses have been led to believe that God is the Organization and speaks through the organization and that if they do anything to make the Society look bad that they are bringing reproach on God, which is like the worst sin of all because they really do believe that God is directing the Organization.
All people who study with Jehovah’s Witnesses are taught early on that God owns them and own the world and made their life possible and they owe their life to God and so whatever God asks of them, they have to do and that includes putting God first in their lives. Bible studies are told early on that God comes before family members and friends.
If they had any friends before becoming a Witness, they are told that those old friends and relatives will want them to disown the religion and persecute them until they stop “studying” and Satan is using those people to draw them away from the “truth” and so paranoia sets in right away and so they either disown all their old friends and relatives, or bring them into the “truth” too so that they can all live together and live through Armageddon together into the “new world”.
If Witnesses don’t try and “witness” to all those old friends and relatives, then the Witness is made to feel guilty that they don’t care enough about those people to witness to them and so that is why some Witnesses make pests of themselves at any get together they may have with relatives or friends. They actually think if they don’t “witness” to those people that they are signing their death warrants at Armageddon.
Most Witnesses think that and it takes months and months of being out of the religion before those feelings go away but it’s web sites like this is what helps people to realize that those fears of Armageddon is no different than any other religion that uses the fear of being burned in hell is what keeps most people belonging to other religions as well. It’s either the fear of burning in hell or being killed at Armageddon. It’s just a evil cult tactic to keep people tied to a certain religion.
Reply
Jonathan Drake says:
June 8, 2015 at 2:57 pm
I have always found it telling (while a believer I found it strange) how the shunning practice is supposed to work.
Why do they return to jehovah? Is it because they love him? No. Is it because they love the organization? No. The bible? No. Is it even because they learn their lesson? No. It’s because they miss their family! They even freely admit this is the reason and they never seem to notice that this in no way is an indicator that they learned any lesson or changed anything for any “good” reason. They just missed their family.
Or would think this fact being freely admitted in front of thousands at a time would cause some sort of dissonance.
Reply
John Baptist says:
June 9, 2015 at 6:27 am
Just the fact that they only miss their family is the reason they come back should tell you in the first place that they really don’t care about the religion to begin with. Many have gone stealth and faded out and some avoid being tracked down by the elder police so as not to be disfellowshipped. I have heard of cases of elders disfellowshipping individuals just on hearsay without them ever being present at a judicial meeting. You don’t even have to say anything. These higher ups will do what they want and how they want irregardless of what the Bible really says. They are Grandmasters at being illusionists.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 9, 2015 at 2:55 am
There is something really odd about Brenda Sutton in the video. If you maximize the screen and just watch her eyes, she seems scared of her husband or else very insecure about herself the way she keeps looking up at him and fiddling with her notes and he never looks at her at all. He seems proud of himself but not his wife. I see a woman who isn’t happy with her life at all.
Reply
John Baptist says:
June 9, 2015 at 6:36 am
Spot on observation about the wife. They were both very nervous trying to deliver their not from the heart experience but rather a scripted demonstration. Hopefully one day they may look back when it all falls apart for them and they wake up and realize what a fool they made of themselves in this video. If she was my wife I might not look at her much either. Not a very secure person for sure. They may love their child but obviously in a limited capacity if you are willing to give it up for a manmade religion to begin with.
Reply
Nemorino says:
June 9, 2015 at 5:59 am
It’s exactly this kind of exposure, to the media and the uninitiated public, of material intended solely for an uncritical, worshipful audience will ultimately prove their undoing. What’s being said and practiced in the darkened corners of Watchtowerland is dragged into the blinding glare of daylight.
Then too, one can’t help but wonder how one who cynically suppresses his misgivings and succumbs to the humiliation and grovelling required for readmittance, cannot bitterly resent (1) the family that insists on it; and (2) the elders and the organization that subject him/her to the humiliation of running their gauntlet of harsh scrutiny.
Reply
J*L*C*R says:
June 9, 2015 at 1:25 pm
Lets hope front-line news gets this story and airs it on international TV.
Reply
Spiritualbrother says:
June 9, 2015 at 8:41 pm
Quite an evil cult.
Reply
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← Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
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Posted on June 5, 2015
In a video clip from the 2015 convention series, Robert and Brenda Sutton are praised for shunning their child
In a video clip from the 2015 convention series, Robert and Brenda Sutton are praised for shunning their child
It is a predicament that all too many visitors to this website, myself included, find themselves in: believing Jehovah’s Witness relatives cutting off all contact in the belief they must do so in order to show loyalty to God.
And there appears to be no sign of Watchtower relaxing its cruel shunning policy, which it has repeatedly denied even having – especially if a video from the 2015 regional convention series is anything to go by.
In the video, which has just started to be circulated on Facebook, a JW couple identified as Robert and Brenda Sutton are interviewed about their experience raising three children. It emerges that one of their children was disfellowshipped not long after getting a new job where there was “questionable association with coworkers.”
The Suttons, who are now working at the Watchtower bethel facilities in Warwick, unashamedly talk about how they “cut off all association” with their child after he or she was disciplined by elders. They describe how the shunning eventually led to him or her returning to the organization.
After they give their experience, the speaker praises the couple for their “excellent example” as they exit the stage to applause from the audience.
What makes this video especially difficult to watch is how the parents who did the shunning are quick to portray themselves as victims in this scenario, with seemingly no thought for the trauma of ostracism inflicted on their child.
“It was one of the hardest things that I ever had to face,” relates Brenda Sutton. “I had many sleepless nights praying to Jehovah, but I came to realize that we needed to trust in what Proverbs 22 and verse 6 says: ‘train a boy in the way he should go, even when he grows old he will not depart from it.'”
In other words: train up a boy to believe what you believe without question, and if he grows up and walks away from it of his own free will you can bank on him returning if you are prepared to emotionally blackmail him.
“We began to question ourselves as parents,” says Robert Sutton. “Where did we go wrong? Were we too strict? Were we too lenient? Just what did we do that was wrong?”
Guilt and self-loathing are typical by-products of cult indoctrination, and few things induce these toxic feelings quite as well as an adult son or daughter walking away from the faith despite the best efforts of believing parents to super-impose their beliefs on him or her.
“But one thing we did for sure, and that’s in addition to multiple times with praying to Jehovah,” added Robert Sutton. “We made sure that we cling to our spiritual routine.”
Yes – staying busy, busy, busy in “Jehovah’s service” helps keep those feelings of guilt at bay. You may have let the Creator down by failing to calibrate your child’s brain to his specifications, but at least you can put in extra ministry time to compensate.
“What was it that moved your child to return to Jehovah?” asks the speaker.
“Well it was the missed association with the family,” says Brenda Sutton proudly and unflinchingly. “And here’s why, I had always told our kids… ‘I would die for you, I love you, would die for you, but if you ever leave Jehovah I wouldn’t be there’. And they knew that we wouldn’t waver on this. But sad to say, and as hard as it was, we had to cut off all association.”
Speaking for myself, those who are being shunned by JW relatives don’t want their relatives to die for them. They want them to live with them and be in their lives.
A person could easily find himself or herself in a situation where they choose to die for a complete stranger, perhaps a small child on a road as a car approaches, but that doesn’t mean they have full love for the person they are saving. They are merely showing basic human solidarity for a vulnerable person in peril.
Real love is when you stand by your child no matter what, through good times and bad, and sadly JW parents who capitulate to the cruel and baseless rules about shunning can never lay claim to such love. Their love is conditional – based on their offspring sharing the beliefs they have been indoctrinated to accept, usually by their own parents.
Speaking as someone who has recently become a father, I know that wild horses couldn’t pull me away from my baby daughter – especially not something as frivolous and petty as ideological differences.
It saddens me to think my father once felt his own love for me was unbreakable, perhaps when he once cradled me in his arms when I was a baby. The fact that a cult can erode such strong parental bonds only underscores for me how corrosive Watchtower ideology is, and how important it is that it be combated, refuted and dismantled wherever possible.
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Further reading…
◾Friendly Atheist article
◾If shunning loved ones is scriptural, why does Watchtower publicly deny the practice?
◾JWsurvey articles on shunning
◾JWfacts article on disfellowshipping and shunning
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← Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
142 Responses to 2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
← Older Comments
RC says:
June 10, 2015 at 2:02 am
Hi ,
Have got the following books :-
1) Captives of a concept
2) Raymond Franz’s (Crisis of Conscience and In Search of Christian Freedom)
3) The Gentile Times Reconsidered
4) Steve Hassan’s (Freedom of Mind and Combatting Mind Control)
Is there any other books which is required reading for helping our loved ones get out of this evil cult. Please suggest.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 10, 2015 at 2:54 am
@RC, another good one is “The Armageddon Cult” by Daniel LeEarl Hall and I liked “The Four Presidents of the Watchtower Society” by Edmond C. Gruss and also “Apocalypse Delayed” by M. James Penton.
Crisis of Conscience was my favorite followed by In Search of Christian Freedom but The Gentile Times Reconsidered is really good too. The thing that I like about The Gentile Reconsidered is how he shows from 17 different ways, how 607 can be disproved and that the Society even admits in one the Society’s own publications that there is no evidence for 607 but they are waiting for it to happen some day to prove that they were right after all. Also, it shows how unchristian and dishonest the Society is when they disfellowshipped Mr. Jonsson when he proved the Society wrong about 607 to keep him quiet. Doing that to that man, was the lowest of the low and it shows that they will resort to throwing even the most honest and sincere Witness under the bus and destroy their reputation to save their own skins and their publishing and real estate empire. Doing that alone to that man, should be enough of a reason why any honest Witness should take a stand against the Society and never attend another meeting until those men on the Governing Body grovel at the feet of 8 million Witnesses, begging for their forgiveness for what they have done to them.
Reply
David says:
June 10, 2015 at 9:33 am
I never realized that the WTBTS was soo secretive about its shunning practices. After an episode of JWPodcast where it was mentioned how they deny it I dug around the jw.org site and noticed how they mention things like “people are free to leave” and are very vague about something that every rank in file JW knows is hanging over them like a guillotine should they stray away and break the rules.
Even the way its presented in this video, the speaker as the representative of the Society did not specifically make any mention of the shunning, the parents are directed to express what “helped” bring their child back into the fold. The mom finally says that she told them “I will not be there”, and all I can see is the reactions in the crowds of people nodding their heads in agreement and approval.
They don’t have to outright say it anymore because its been soo ingrained that every JW knows what she is saying. Its incredibly insidious and evil.
Reply
Fedup says:
June 10, 2015 at 10:46 am
People are waking up from the truth! Guess this will be a common practice now … optimizing. :-)
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-09/sale-of-jehovah-witnesses-halls-an-expansion-plan/6533544
Reply
anonymous says:
June 10, 2015 at 12:55 pm
@Fedup, they could sell 90% of all the Kingdom Halls and the rest still in the cult would still believe it’s the “truth” because, after all, didn’t the Society predict that “the love of the greater number would cool off?” The Society are experts at cult mind control and it’s so sad. If 90% of all the Witnesses fell away, the 10% would be prouder than ever of themselves.
I am glad I am not one of those fools who may experience the downfall last when all those around them could see the writing on the wall and got out when when the gettin’ was good. Right now, they are all still riding on an arrogant high.
Someday, they will look back and remember how stupid they were. That is what I am doing right now.
Reply
Kat says:
June 10, 2015 at 11:05 am
David they lie to the public about shunning.
“A spokesman for the church in Australia, Sydney solicitor Vincent Toole, dismissed the allegations and said shunning was a”myth.”
http://www.smh.com.au/national/jehovahs-witnesses-a-cruel-cult-20130315-2g5x3.html
Reply
Observer says:
June 10, 2015 at 12:29 pm
I was raised a Jw along with my two sisters in the 70s. I have proof from long ago up until now they shun family members of all ages . This is very sad. My mother is the only one still a Jw. My dad never was he died in Jan and mom just won’t let go of this cult that has controlled her for 50 years.
Reply
Andres Torres says:
June 10, 2015 at 3:57 pm
Wasn’t this a youtube video? Looks like the original was taken down in only two days. Amazing!
Reply
Exhausted says:
June 11, 2015 at 2:09 am
Anonymous….AMEN.
Reply
Barb Moor says:
June 11, 2015 at 2:54 am
I’ll bet “Family Fun Night” at their house sucked big-time. These people are robotic. As Cedars said, it’s all about them and their suffering.
One thing that intrigues me, over and over, is that they feel this discipline is DIRECT from Jehovah and don’t accept that it’s often slanted/ignorant/biased/bored/hateful elders that dole out this punishment. Yikes.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 11, 2015 at 7:24 am
Barb, I can’t imagine how much fun that “fun” night was with those parents. They did everything “right” in their eyes by going to all the meetings together, having their weekly Bible study with the kids and going in service together and then they “scheduled” a family night together that was supposed to be fun. Their life sounds like it was so structured like it was a blue print they were following.
The mom also says she kept up her pioneering so that basically was a full-time job for her. With any full time job for a woman, means that when she gets home, she’s got another 3 hours of homework to get done every night. So, what time did these people have for a close relationship with their kids?
To them, scheduling a “fun” night with their kids was supposed to keep this kid protected from outside “bad” influence for the rest of his lie and from getting a job that “led” to his getting disfellowshipped.
What did his getting a job have to do with their training anyway? Obviously, the kid was out of the house by that time because they said they didn’t have anything to do with him anymore and that wouldn’t have been possible if he still lived in the same house, or else they kicked him out of the house when he got disfellowshipped.
If they kicked him out of the house, that would have looked ever more cruel than how they treated him in the demonstration and I have a sneaking suspicion that is what happened but they had to leave it out just in case “apostates” would have taken that and run with it.
If the kid was out of the house and living on his own, then why in the world, would they have wondered what they did “wrong”. Once a kid is out and on his own, their job is done. They can’t be responsible for what he does once he leaves the house.
Are these parents so arrogant to think that what they did as parents is going to keep him “protected” from outside influence the rest of his life? What parents can watch their kid every minute of every day for the rest of their lives? People need to realize that once a kid leaves the nest that they are now responsible for themselves and can’t blame the parents for their mistakes (if it was a mistake so then why would the parents ask themselves where they went wrong?)
If the kid was out on his own and did something to get himself disfellowshipped, then the parents could have said something like: “We hated to do it, but we followed orders from the Society so as to make him see the bad course he was following so he’d come back to the “truth” and save his life. It was really hard for us to do, but all we cared about was him living through Armageddon so we had to be strong.” That would have made more sense than the only explanation of why he came back was because he missed the family.
I have a feeling that the kid couldn’t survive on his own and that they kicked him out of the house and he came groveling back because he was starving to death or something like that and he had no choice but to come back and follow their rules to get back in their good graces.
You can tell by the look on the mother’s face that there is a whole lot more to the story than that little 3 minute skit.
All the Society was trying to accomplish with that story is that if parents want their kids to come back into the “fold” that they have to shun their kids. But for every one kid that works on (which they will never talk about), there’s probably 30 it does just the opposite and makes them more sure than ever that no loving Christian religion would treat an erring child like that and make them more determined than ever to never have anything to do with it.
I can only think of maybe 2 or 3 out of at least 20 kids that I personally know of that got disfellowshipped and never came back. I am glad for those kids that they saw it for what it really is, even if they don’t have anything to do with the parents anymore. The kids are better off.
Some parents who really do love their kids cry when they talk about those kids but others are arrogant and could care less about those kids now. The parents who really do love those kids and do shun them, are miserable. I think that contributes to so many in the congregations being on anti-depressants.
In that video, the guy introducing those parents made a comment like “perhaps” there are some in the audience going through this very thing…I can guarantee you that probably most of those people in that audience are experiencing having to shun a loved family member or a close friend. It has to be the most depressed group of people on the face of the earth because of the shunning policy.
Also, the kid’s job isn’t want caused him to get disfellowshipped. It’s like the leaked elder’s video. It wasn’t the girl that forced that kid to commit fornication. He did it on his own. That girl didn’t rape him.
Reply
Wanderer says:
June 11, 2015 at 2:21 pm
What sort of brainwashing techniques teach parents that totally cutting off a child is normal and appropriate. As a parent I can’t ever imagine how I could do that to my Kids, not ever.
There is nothing more conditional than the unconditional love of the JW’s.
Reply
just asking says:
June 11, 2015 at 11:10 am
Blackmail is criminal in the part of the world I live.
How possible is it to get hold of this book elders use for judging others? I need a lawyer to check this out.
Reply
Ted says:
June 11, 2015 at 11:22 am
“Their life sounds like it was so structured like it was a blue print they were following.”
Nicely summed up Anonymous. We were instructed to make out a schedule
for all our activities. The CO would ask, are we sticking to our schedule?
He would then counsel to let relatives know when we would be at meetings
or out in f, service, so they wouldn’t turn up and interfere with the blueprint.
( There was no time allotted for “Worldly” flesh and blood.)
“Family fun night” AH ! at last, a rest from the Bible, Sorry! No competitive
games, no worldly video games, no card games. Heaven forbid !
Let’s make it charades, identifying Bible characters. — When I used to get
together with other JWs for a social evening ( After the meeting)
it always ended up with that kind of “Entertainment”.
No wonder they have a problem with youths leaving.
Reply
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2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
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Stephen Lett admits income/expenditure shortfall as he reminds Witnesses to donate "valuable things"
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