Wednesday, January 21, 2015
Ex-JW dicussions on Yuku.com reposted- Part 2
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And Yet Another...
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offlineCacky
And Yet Another...
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http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2014/12/jehovahs_witnesses_under_fire.html
status offlineJourney
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As a JW, I never heard any suspicion about the elders in our congregation. If I had, I think I would have left and called the cops or child protective services.
So, knowing how gossip is and yet how fear is, I imagine sometimes the congregation knows , and other times they don't know, depending on the people involved.
Some Jws would blame the parents or even the child, saying it's all a lie.
If that had happened in our family, I would have been hell on wheels. Cops, CPS, the elders, whoever was around.
My son had a problem with one teenager in the cong who was offering my son drugs and made a death threat against my son for turning them down. I went into full protective mode. I called that boys mother and I called an elder. I was one rip roaring mama bear protecting one of her cubs.
And it's sad that parents seem to lose that Mama bear thing in that organization. I was never a "good JW". I can see that now. Wish I'd never gone into it.
status offlinecangie
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"I was one rip roaring mama bear protecting one of her cubs." Thumbs up!
"I was never a "good JW" Me neither, Journey..................whistling
status offlineJourney
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Cangie, glad we got out. We're probably doing more for life in general by being out now. And the experience I keep thinking may have helped us all learn to see through some of the veils and crap that people will put up to hinder understanding sometimes.
Life goes on. SO glad to be out.
Thank you Cangie!
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JW's Ordered to pay $13.5 million in Child Abuse Case
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offlineBeachLady
JW's Ordered to pay $13.5 million in Child Abuse Case
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And another one bites the dust. They are going to have to end up paying all of these people. No way around it now. And there will be more.
http://tinyurl.com/kvqu5zo
Jose Lopez, now 35, was one of eight children who have accused Gonzalo Campos of sexually abusing them between 1982 and 1995, according to his lawsuit against the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, the entity that oversees Jehovah’s Witness churches.
He said punitive damages made up $10.5 million of the judgment, and were awarded as a result of how Watchtower responded to the accusations against Campos.
"Damages that reflect the reprehensible conduct of the Watchtower in how they covered this up for years and allowed multiple children to be injured,” said Zalkin. “They protected and harbored a criminal."
Source: http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/135M-Awarded-to-Bible-Teacher-Gonzalo-Campos-Alleged-Abuse-Victim-Jose-Lopez-281031832.html#ixzz3Hm80dW5M
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status offlinewhytebyrd2
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I have just been reading up on all of this.
So, do the GB think that if they broadcast a children's station from their JW.org site and keep saying how much they 'looove' children that all this real world stuff won't touch them?
Maybe they think Armegeddon will come 'very soon' and they can be ostriches with their heads in the sand until then.
Where the hell was their 'loving god' when all these children were being abused?
I see a day of reckoning coming.
Bring it on!
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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And if God always "makes it right" (wait on Jehovah.........) why is it that "Satan's system" is "bringing this out"? Years later!
That always bothered me, that the JWs would fall for that kind of reasoning. The Org could get away with a lot by making people feel they shouldn't complain or call the police, because Jehovah will take care of things.
Hopefully, this is the beginning of a trend.
Om........
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What about all these religions including Jehovah’s Witnesses being exposed as harbouring paedophiles?
What irony; if they were not doing it, they would use it to claim it is a sign of the times!
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status offlinehalf banana
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JW at the door:
“We are just calling on our neighbours and sharing some information as to why there is so much trouble in the world.”
Householder:
“grunts (quietly)”
JW:
“There is so much injustice and hate in the world today don’t you think?”
HH:
“Yes, I agree. Have you heard about the astronomic amounts the USA courts are awarding the claimants in Watchtower abuse cases, I think this is the height of religious hypocrisy. What is it you have come about?................. yes do please step over my pet wombat droppings, I haven’t had a chance to clear it up yet.”
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status offlinejerryjax99
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Not surprised! Anyone want to give further insight for the comment at the end of the article? To me it sounds like WTBS is whining that the courts closed the case too quickly?
status offlineBeachLady
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Jerry:
I read that the JW's refused to hand over their database of child abuse claims and other documentation that had been requested by the court. They also refused to have a certain witness testify. Since they were in contempt of court, they were not allowed to participate in the proceedings.
I'm not sure what the exact circumstances are. Would have to look that up, but basically they wouldn't cooperate with the court and are now complaining because they didn't get their way.
Cari
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status offlineBeachLady
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http://tinyurl.com/ot3v8gb
Here is a link to a press release by the attorney of the victim. It delineates what the JW's did not do and the courts opinion of it.
Height of arrogance.
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BeachLady wrote:
http://tinyurl.com/ot3v8gb
Here is a link to a press release by the attorney of the victim. It delineates what the JW's did not do and the courts opinion of it.
Height of arrogance.
Arrogance...yes. And completely in opposition to their lying claim to be law-abiding and respectful of the law of the land, and to "render Caesar's things to Caesar." Imagine the nerve to blatantly refuse a court order, and then, no doubt, cry "persecution." whack
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I'm not at all surprised.
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The firm currently has more than 20 active lawsuits against the Jehovah’s
Witnesses in five states, representing victims of childhood sexual abuse.
And that will be just the tip of the WBTS based child sexual abuse cases!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinehalf banana
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There are two Watchtower principles, both wrong, which have caused them to fall into the hands of the law and its costly remedies.
The primary false assumption is to believe that the Bible as God’s word is inerrant.
Their second false assumption is that they believe they are always right because they follow the Bible as god’s word.
The Biblical “two witnesses” does not make the slightest sense when dealing with child abuse, yet they put all of their trust foolishly and stubbornly in applying the principle even when others are likely to be harmed by it.
Their arrogance is in putting dogma before the welfare of their followers. Yet do otherwise or to make exceptions would expose the folly of that insistence on "putting Biblical teaching first”since that is all of what JWs are about.
They are in a cleft stick...and may they soon realise that human needs are more important than obligations to the dictates of ancient and outdated scripture.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
Last Edited By: half banana Nov 4 14 12:58 AM. Edited 1 times.
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half banana wrote:
JW at the door:
“We are just calling on our neighbours and sharing some information as to why there is so much trouble in the world.”
Householder:
“grunts (quietly)”
JW:
“There is so much injustice and hate in the world today don’t you think?”
HH:
“Yes, I agree. Have you heard about the astronomic amounts the USA courts are awarding the claimants in Watchtower abuse cases, I think this is the height of religious hypocrisy. What is it you have come about?................. yes do please step over my pet wombat droppings, I haven’t had a chance to clear it up yet.”
I think its a good script. Perhaps they could use it in the Theocratic Misery School
status offlineBeachLady
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Whytebird2
Where the hell was their 'loving god' when all these children were being abused?
Nonexistant
If you want to be happy, be. ~Leo Tolstoy
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Woman Dies from Refusing blood; JW Family sues doctors
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offlineCacky
Woman Dies from Refusing blood; JW Family sues doctors
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Thank you for posting.
Years ago when first meeting my primary physician, she mentioned after hearing about my family medical history - she almost lost a a pregnant patient because of her refusal for taking blood. It's pretty sad when you have doctors now refusing to deal with JW's because of such.
They [JW] have no one to blame because they continue believing in such. Darn, I forgot they can't go against the WTBTS dictates. Damn, I hate that religion!
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Allan Falk, appellate attorney for Rozier’s estate, said she chose the doctors because they had experience working with Jehovah’s Witnesses and knew about the family’s opposition to transfusions.
“They created the need for the transfusion and blame the victim for refusing it. We’ll see what higher courts have to say,” Falk said.
Despite what Mr Falk alleges ...... the family were never ever EVER going to accept a blood transfusion for the witness who died. She underwent major surgery. A kidney transplant is not like having a wart removed. While it is sad the woman in question died ...... the medical professionals would have gone through each and every risk to that kind of surgery and she would have signed consent forms acknowledging that she was told about each and every risk. Whether the doctors in question 'had experience working with Jehovah's Witnesses' or not ...... none of them could have predicted that her body would not accept the new kidney. Taking it to a higher court for what? Money? Isn't that why people take things to a higher court? Such a sad sad thing to happen to any family ....
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Judge says yes to blood transfusion
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Judge says yes to blood transfusion
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I'm glad that kid will get the treatment he needs. Yay for the judge!
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Yes, good for the judge.
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Yet Another One
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offlineCacky
Yet Another One
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status offlineJourney
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What a creepy guy. That poor child. But to blow that family a kiss. Turned my stomach.
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How incredibly cruel and inhuman to blow a kiss to the girl's family. What goes around will come around ...
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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What a total perv! There aren't any words bad enough in English to describe what I think of that piece of crap! Just wait till he gets to jail and the other prisoners find out what he's done. They'll make him pay. (Evil smirk)
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Aaand Another
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offlineCacky
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Nice catch Cathy. There are two relevant links to the article that can also be read.
It will be yet another case of the perpetrator being labelled as a 'rank and file' member of the religion .... rather than 'it's dreadful ... we will do what we can to sort this mess out'. Deny. Deny. Deny.
All that denial doesn't make it go away!
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Skinny Jeans
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offlineKBG
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status offlineBeachLady
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I was just coming on here to post something about this. This is hilarious -- but typical. I remember a long list of things we weren't supposed to do, wear or look at.
Nice to see that their idiocy is making the national news. They're really showing their butts lately. smiley: devilsmiley: roll
If you want to be happy, be. ~Leo Tolstoy
status offlinecangie
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It must be absolutely EXHAUSTING to be a GB member...especially Anthony Morris III. Reading all those fashion industry newspapers and magazines, attending all those fashion week openings, interviewing the latest designers, watching the fashion contest programs on TV (I don't even know the name) and searching for the latest clothing trends on the streets of Brooklyn Heights. Can you imagine the hours spent, the research that goes into it, the effort expended for the edification of the "brothers and sisters"? And the GB, being the examples of "sartorial splendor" that they are...kindly give of their time, all in the name of serving their followers, who certainly would not be able to avoid absolute nakedness if they were not directed as to what the appropriate "Jarhoover-approved" garments are. Sarcasm But he'd better mind his business when it comes to my SPANX (most popular undergarment designed for women in many years, a very comfortable panty-girdle) and I would NEVER give them up. Now tell me, HOW WOULD HE EVEN KNOW IF WOMEN ARE WEARING IT OR NOT? binoculars Sherlock Holmes (Boy, do they need to get a life!)
Last Edited By: cangie Nov 11 14 12:57 PM. Edited 2 times.
status offlinesolitaire
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WTF.....................smiley: rollsmiley: rollsmiley: roll
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status offlineCeili
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I read about this on another forum (yea, that's how gripping it is), and here's where it stops being comprehensible. I've tried to understand the logic, and I simply can't intellectually follow it. Don't wear tight pants. Ok. What drugs are they on? Are they for real? A caricature? Sound as if they haven't been let out in a while, these old geezers in their ivory tower some place far far away.
Ceili xx
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All I can think of is this video with Will Ferrell and Jimmy Fallon ---- I would love to send it to that idiot. Tight Pants with Will Ferrell and Jimmy Fallon
status offlinejerryjax99
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As I posted in another thread here...women also design skinny jeans for men! (Not lesbians but heterosexual women...) What now WBTS!?
status offlineJoe Magarac
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There are some other religions where tight pants would be a no-no,
but are there any other religions where it would be a gay conspiracy?
status onlineAndriaSyxx
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He would have made more sense by saying that tight pants could restrict the sperm from floating about freely in the ball bag areas of tight-pants-wearing males! haha
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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On the topic of skinny jeans-- last night I visited with the only JW who is still talking to me since my abrupt exit over three years ago. She welcomed me into her home, and we had a nice long chat about all things JW-- the good, the bad and the ugly. Years ago this born-in JW showed me a recording of Barbara Andersen on NBC's Date Line exposing the WT for protecting pedophiles! She is still married to, but separated from her DF'd bisexual JW husband. The first time he cheated they told her she was not spiritually free to remarry, 'cuz, as you know, adultery only happens between a man and a woman. smiley: sick Now she feels it's too late to leave him, as they are in their seventies and dependent on each other financially. Trust me when I say cognitive dissonance is killing her! The only reason she is still a JW is that she needs to believe that her life has not been wasted and that she will see her sister again in paradise.)
Anywho, no sooner had I walked in the door, when she exclaimed, "You are wearing THOSE tight jeans!" smiley: eek (I'm certain she meant THOSE infamous AM III tight jeans. smiley: devil ) She asked me to turn around, so I obliged. Her only comment, "They're flattering! Where did you get them?" smiley: tongue
SailAway's best asset strikes again! smiley: roll
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SailAway wrote:
....."You are wearing THOSE tight jeans!" smiley: eek ....Her only comment, "They're flattering! Where did you get them?" smiley: tongue
SailAway's best asset strikes again! smiley: roll
Rock on sista!
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................. rock on Sista Sailaway with the tight buns of cuteness!!!!! Bow down before youBow waveBow down before youbow downbow downbow down
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Meant to add earlier ........ the hierachy of the borg have been known to say that people can also become homosexuals if they receive a blood transfusion from a homosexual too didn't they? I do remember that flawed logic being bandied about. It didn't seem to matter if a man received blood from a woman ... obviously a man's genetic structure is much stronger than a woman's so he wouldn't turn into a woman ..... but ending up homosexual because of blood transfusion? Blech ... no wonder we don't take them seriously eh! Blood is blood ... and as it turns out ... it is thicker than water!!! haha
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AndriaSyxx wrote:
Meant to add earlier ........ the hierachy of the borg have been known to say that people can also become homosexuals if they receive a blood transfusion from a homosexual too didn't they?
Wow I hadn't heard of this one before I think they for rid of it. But can you just imagine the shitstorm that would happen if people got a hold of one of the gb members saying that. Considering how much fun some media outlets are making, I'd imagine theyd start treating the gb like they treat pat Robertson.
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Not only did Tight Pants Tony talk about tight pants, he did mention people with bulges in airports........now, what's he doing checking out bulges in airports. If I was his wife, I'd be worried. As it happens, he's doing our work for us in turning folk away from JW.org and providing us with comedy gold to boot.
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
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status offlinewingnut
My Walmart Wrangers are too tight!!! #15 [-]
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It must be the beer and pizza but whatever, I'm in my 60's so I have earned the right to wear tight jeans and turn on members of the GB. smiley: roll
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You go for it Wingnut .... I'm sure the GB's other 'name' is 'Giant Balls' ...... haha
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There's probably some gay folks somewhere who are turned on by baggy old suit paints sagging off a boney white butt. Somebody should warn Anthony, he might want to switch to sweats or something. smiley: devil
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Supposedly the world is on the brink of a once and for all cleansing, bringing a war against god, where bodies will be piled up for the survivors to have to bury, the earth charred to a crisp, yadda yadda and this guy, one of 12? of the only humans with a direct line to god the almighty is focused on tight pants? Has he nothing to say about the JW tennis star who I happen to google a while back and lo and behold, there she was in nothing more than a thong and little old me, sitting there looking at her athletic bare buns? Quite beautiful I must say, but cannot believe this got past the let's-find-something-wrong-with-everything radar.
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I like a man in pants that are not baggy or tight either. I like them to curve around with the shape of the guy and they sort of outline his butt cheeks smoothly and beautifully as he walks. When he stands still, they curve round his bottom, but then fall straight down, leaving one's mind to imagine. The problem with the baggy ones is you can't see anything. The problem with tight ones is that one's hind quarters must conform to the pants, thus what you are seeing with tight pants is the way the pants go, not the way his bottom goes.
Not that I sit and watch men's butts as they walk past me in the mall. I mean, hey, I'm sitting on a mobility scooter, so what can I do but notice men's butts? they're just right there.
Sometimes women are a problem though, because they get in the way of my observations and studies of men's pants.
I should take notes when I'm out, and pictures, yes pictures so when i send my study to the University I'll have something to back up my findings.
Journey
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Journey wrote:
I like a man in pants that are not baggy or tight either. I like them to curve around with the shape of the guy and they sort of outline his butt cheeks smoothly and beautifully as he walks. When he stands still, they curve round his bottom, but then fall straight down, leaving one's mind to imagine. The problem with the baggy ones is you can't see anything. The problem with tight ones is that one's hind quarters must conform to the pants, thus what you are seeing with tight pants is the way the pants go, not the way his bottom goes.
Not that I sit and watch men's butts as they walk past me in the mall. I mean, hey, I'm sitting on a mobility scooter, so what can I do but notice men's butts? they're just right there.
Sometimes women are a problem though, because they get in the way of my observations and studies of men's pants.
I should take notes when I'm out, and pictures, yes pictures so when i send my study to the University I'll have something to back up my findings.
JourneyI can tell you are an authority on the subject. Now that you've said it, I see the WHY of too baggy or too tight being less attractive. You did a great job of putting that to words. Its hard to work mobility scooter into a conversation about tight pants, another kudos to you. Every other phrase makes me LOL.
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SailAway, I envy you. My days of rocking a pair of tight jeans are LONG gone. If you got it, flaunt it. Andria, I don't remember that about turning gay by getting blood from a gay donor, but I do remember something similar. In an old Watchtower (my mom used to have the volumes going back to the early 60s) there was something about not getting organ transplants because you would take on the personality of the donor. If the donor was a criminal, you would become a criminal. Total stupidity. Funny, except JWs actually BELIEVE it.
status offlineJourney
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KBG, thank you! I had fun writing that. :D
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sg75, there was something about the personality changes for blood transfusions too way back. I think around the 1970s. I have a friend whose son is a hemophiliac. He'd have to get one of those Factor 8 shots if he started bleeding for some reason. She said that for a while after the shot, his personality did seem to change, for a few hours or couple of days. I forgot, but it wasn't long. That family is not and never has been JW or even studied with a JW. She said that sometimes he'd go wild in ways he hadn't been before. And sometimes he'd get unusually quiet for a time. Things like that. Nothing weird or frightening, and perhaps those things could be explained by the events of his day, etc.
I doubt that phenomenon is in any medical literature. I don't know if they've ever done a study. But my friend did observe that from watching her own son.
But I have known several people over the years who have gotten organ transplants and they are still themselves. One of them is alive now and is so sweet and funny, just like he's been since he was a kid. Another has become quieter and almost depressed, but that is explainable. I doubt any of them has had a massive personality change.
Janet
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Yep ... there was the personality changes thing too SG. I remember it well. Even as far as if you were a man and got a woman's blood ...you'd start behaving like a woman! Of course the old WBTS will deny deny deny it!!!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Oh, the denial! The WBTS goes so far into denial that they don't put those old anti-transplant articles in their index. If you're trying to locate old information, you'll never find it. Just what the GB currently wants you to find. If it's not in the index, it doesn't exist in the JW mind. Bob forbid that they actually READ the old volumes!
status offlinePauley4
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This is from scary, ultra conservative, bureaucratic Anthony Morris III.
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Janet, as for the 'personality change' my first thought was that if the boy was anoemic before the clotting factor, maybe after he just felt way better and was more energetic...
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
status offlineJourney
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Actually, that could have happened, just him feeling better, and the extremes in his behavior weren't as dramatic as the WTS said. But his mother said the changes were short lived and not like him when they happened. Not dramatic changes, but short lived, personality changes for a while. But the kid is still alive and grown up and is a nice man. I don't think the blood caused any permanent changes. And it would certainly not be an argument to use against blood. He is alive today because of that.
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Hi everyone, I've just discovered this friday that my page on pedophilia amongst the Jehovah's Witnesses has been censored in google search results :
https://www.watchtowerlies.com/pedophilia_amongst_the_jehovah_s_witnesses.html
Strangely, these last days/weeks it ranked no 1 on the first page on google.com when you searched "Jehovah's witnesses pedophilia". And now it is nowhere. It is a clear command from the Watchtower headquarters.
Similarly, in 2011, I advertised on my site www.watchtowerlies.com that I was organizing a protest at the Quebec city's summer convention in Canada, and one day after google Adsense sent my an email saying they were stopping the ads on my site because of the same page on pedophilia....Another command from the watchtower.
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Lol! Yalbmert99. Welcome to the wonderful and wacky world of internet censorship.
Have you not heard of 'shadow's and broken links yet?
And then there is the nasty little practise of shutting down the posts and pages that 'aren't acceptable' to those in power by attaching malware and such - hell, I even have pages, on this very forum, from a few years back that are 'red-screened' - you can't even access them anymore.
It happens regularly when you post stuff that the Society and other power agencies don't like.
Stick around - it happens lots.
You just have to keep posting and hope to hell it gets read by a few before the 'internet police' stomp on it.
*your website isn't 'nowhere' with those search terms...it is on the second page of search results. Maybe you can move your ranking up with better and more tagging terms - not sure if that is the right terminology - it has been a few years since I did web design...but ranking is dependent upon other factors besides content. Someone who knows more about this could probably help you to make your website more visible on google searches...I don't think you have been censored - I didn't have any problem finding it
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 Oct 25 14 2:12 PM. Edited 3 times.
status onlineAndriaSyxx
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Hey there 99 .... haven't seen you for a while! Welcome back and thanks for the tip ...................
Like Dianne ... I've noticed bits and pieces go missing or links are taken out and replaced with the more recent jw . org link! The jdubs were against worldly technology and were warned to steer clear of it for fear of being lured further into the world by Satan and his trust henchmen .......... and then the hierarchy realised what a useful tool the internet can be! Now there's jw . org .............. multiple bookface pages where truckloads of photos taken before, during and after meetings, conventions ... even memorial services! Tut tut .......taking a tablet or phone into a meeting? What are they thinking!!!!!
As Dianne has pointed out ...... keep posting. If they can come up with dozens of ways to track down and censor anti-jdub stuff ..... I'm sure we can flood the net over and over again and give them a run for their money!!!!!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Oct 25 14 8:22 PM
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Thanks to you two for your encouragements! I'll see if it can be fixed and what went wrong.....
Yeah, I don't come here often, I usually check fast all forums for news...
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I just found out that the french version just been censored, which was not the case at the beggining of that case. Curiously page 2 in french is not censored on the search results.
https://www.watchtowerlies.com/pedophilie_chez_les_temoins_de_jehovah.html
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Here is a petition to sign to be sent to Google about that censorship (french) : Petition : Attack against the neutrality of the web by censoring pages criticizing the Jehovah's Witnesses
https://secure.avaaz.org/fr/petition/Societe_Google_Retour_du_referencement_de_certaines_pages_web/?nWxNIeb
status onlineAndriaSyxx
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Well well well ...... so the great Google is allowing the not-so-great-but-money-is-no-object WBTS lawyers eh! Tut tut ... I thought Google had balls!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Have signed the petition ..... my school girl French came in handy! Parlez vous Francais? Qui ... je parle Francais ................ kind of!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineCeili
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Signed. Moi, je ne parlez francais anymore. Used to. But guesswork comes in handy, too! ;-)
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Thanks to you 2 Andria and Ceili!! It's a french friend also an ex-JW who started this petition. He has a couple of sites in french against the wt :
http://tjrecherches.chez.com/
http://www.tj-revelation.org/
http://www.tj-encyclopedie.org/
http://www.jehovahforum.org/
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Thanks Yal :0
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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:)
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Well finally we got an answer from Google after many weeks. They say it is not because of a legal request. I don't know more. Maybe it is because of the word "pedophilia" that the algorythm punished the pages...I don't know.
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You know birdwoman, I wonder if that's how I picked up my pesky computer virus. (Fixed now, after much fuss and frustration!) I remember viewing an anti-Witness video on YouTube right before it started. Now I wonder if the Society was trying to sabotage apostates.
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sg75 wrote:
You know birdwoman, I wonder if that's how I picked up my pesky computer virus. (Fixed now, after much fuss and frustration!) I remember viewing an anti-Witness video on YouTube right before it started. Now I wonder if the Society was trying to sabotage apostates.
When using Google, here is what occurred today:
I have been viewing YouTube videos from Apostate Chick for the past few days, and enjoying them thoroughly. She's smart, funny and right on point. Today, I tried one that I hadn't listened to before and whadda you know? NO SOUND!!! So I tried adjusting the sound on both my computer and the speakers---no problem there. I experimented with the sound on Dr. Phil's website...no problem. QVC...sound's o.k. HSN...sound is fine. But I can't get anything on YouTube anymore! Not even watch a video of Lionel Ritchie or the Glade commercial of Kevin Ross singing the new Christmas song. I am wondering if the society is messing with me, too, sg! Crafty laughing devil
Last Edited By: cangie Dec 10 14 8:26 AM. Edited 1 times.
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Oh, no cangie! The evil computers trolls got you too! Could it be a problem with YouTube itself? I've had it glitch out on me at times when I go to watch music videos. Sometimes it'll be out for a few hours or a couple days.
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sg75 wrote:
Oh, no cangie! The evil computers trolls got you too! Could it be a problem with YouTube itself? I've had it glitch out on me at times when I go to watch music videos. Sometimes it'll be out for a few hours or a couple days.Welllll...o.k., your explanation is reasonable. I'll keep an eye on it, rather than become paranoid eek hide under chair sneak off (it did seem rather coincidental, though, lol)
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It's OK to be paranoid. I'm a bit paranoid myself. Especially after you've had something odd happen.
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Yaaayyy...I've got my YouTube back! Sorry for the temporary insanity, folks............smiley: embarassed nuts Crazy
status offlineJourney
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I think youtube went through a period of change. For instance, for a few days I had to look at the volume control on the front of the video on my screen and found the volume off. I think that problem has been resolved.
As for the changes in search engines. When I was real active in the arts community, the website I had back then would be anywhere from 3rd to 6th on the list of sites that would pop up. When I quit messing with it, and people slowed down looking at it, it quickly wound up on the second page. Now I doubt it's even shown anymore. I don't even know if the site itself exists anymore either.
Right now with certain search words, my blog is 3rd now. And some other pages are mentioned. I had to put in more search words to have that pop up that way though. But I am not active in the arts community anymore, so that will all change over time.
The point is, things change. And the search engines change with them. I seriously doubt that the WTS has much say with Google. Unless there is a legitimate reason to remove something for copyright reasons.
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Are They Numbers or Are They People?
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offlineAllTimeJeff
Are They Numbers or Are They People?
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I am thinking of this for my latest blog, but its good to share it with you all.
I imagine that those who have never been Jehovah's Witnesses and just hear about them or perhaps "know" a couple must wonder, "Why all the fuss?"
Since we have moved into the internet age, everyone is an expert. Those who have left the Jehovah's Witness (JW) religion often write of their experiences, such as yours truly. Hey, as long as you have a computer and the internet, you can publish whatever you want. (It's like the National Enquirer is competing against it's own readers!) Thus, you can count on former JW's to appear on all kinds of internet forums, whether its on beliefnet.com, or the local newspaper website in your community when they do an article on a JW Convention, the building of a new place of worship, or the unfortunate death of a member do to their controversial understanding of blood transfusions and blood medicine.
It's little wonder then that rumors and story's about Jehovah's Witnesses abound. Occasionally, some are true! Keep in mind though, between all the rhetoric, and all of the nonsense, we are talking about actual people.
To some, JW's are a small, minority, fringe group. They also happen to be very dynamic and affect many lives.
The average amount of Jehovah's Witnesses throughout this decade have been averaging between 5 and 6 million. Yet, by their own figures in their annual Yearbook, they average between 200,000-300,000 baptized new ones each year! What happens when we do the math for just this decade so far?
At an average of 250,000 baptized each year over 8 years, you come out with over 2,000,000 (yes thats million) baptized and counted as new members in this decade alone. Here are the numbers
2000 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses 323,439
2001 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses 288,907
2002 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses 263,431
2003 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses 265,469
2004 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses 258,845
2005 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses 262,416
2006 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses 247,631
2007 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses 248,327
GRAND TOTAL 2,158,465
The average amount of Jehovah's Witnesses in the 2007 Yearbook was 6,491,775. In the 2000 Yearbook, the average number of Jehovah's Witnesses was 5,653,987. That means the average total amount of JW's grew by 837,788. More math you say? Ok.
2,158,465 baptized this period - the actual average growth of 837,788 = 1,320,677 actual people who somehow aren't with the group anymore.
Over 1.3 million people who are no longer active JW's in this decade so far!
Some have chosen to sit on the sideline. Others are kicked to the curb. When I was at Gilead, John Barr, a member of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses told my missionary class that Jehovah's Witnesses disfellowship (excommunicate) close to 80,000 of its own members a year. (that number has been steadily rising for 30 years) That puts the number of baptized in more perspective. Roughly,1 out of every 3 new JW will be disfellowshipped. The rest slow down, stop, or just move on.
But these are numbers. Keep in mind that these numbers are people! Many who leave this group are no longer allowed to talk to their friends and even family members anymore because they have been kicked out. Lives and families have literally been ruined by the bucketful. Children are censured from their parents. Parents frequently have to make the horrible decision of loyalty to this group by shunning their own children or loyalty to their own children. No religion that claims to follow in the footsteps of Jesus, who we read in the bible talked to all, including tax collectors and fornicators, can defend such a control mechanism.
Because the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses tolerates no additional questions from a baptized member concerning their faith once they actually get baptized, they are stuck, an irrevocable lifelong membership, whether they like it or not. The ability of the leadership to kick out anyone who disagrees or transgresses to their self righteous standards is nothing more then a control mechanism, designed to consolidate authority. Yes, the Governing Body quotes scriptures to support their claims. Charles Manson and Jim Jones also quoted bible scriptures to support their views. Trust me, it isn't that hard of a trick, and by itself, it proves nothing.
To hear the leadership of Jehovah's Witnesses talk about this though, all of this is divinely ordained by their god Jehovah. Those 1.3 million who are out? Tough. To bad for such cattle who didn't "appreciate" the so called "spiritual paradise" that the Governing Body frequently claims exists within their group.
Let me tell you the story of such a person who rejected the "spiritual paradise" of Jehovah's Witnesses. Or more accurate to say, it was the spiritual paradise that rejected him.
He was a nice young JW, who got baptized into the group far too young, at the age of 13. Had he known that he was actually gay and would change, perhaps he wouldn't have decided to be baptized. But the peer pressure was there, and he really wanted to please the god he was brought up to worship. This young JW got to his mid teens, and trouble started.
It was around this time that this nice JW teen was assaulted and raped by a predator. However, 3 elders met as a JW tribunal and decided that this nice JW teen put himself into that situation, told him that he wanted it to happen and thus gave him a severe reproof, instead of the help that was needed.
Disillusioned and very confused, but still determined to serve Jehovah, this JW teen slowly but surely got in with the wrong crowd. The rape caused him to question his sexuality. And then the substance abuse started: At first with alcohol, then drugs of all kinds. He reached out to his family, who were torn to the core as to what to do. The elders counseled the parents to be tough. Eventually, he was disfellowshipped, because he was addicted to drugs. (you see, JW's don't believe in rehabilitation or medical help for such matters. If a person gets addicted to drugs or alcohol, JW's are taught that it is a 100% spiritual problem, not an addiction. Tough love and following JW teachings require JW's to disfellowship such a one out of the congregation, cut off from the help that he needs) The elders then counseled the family to totally shun him. Thankfully, they didn't, and did all they could, as good parents should do. His brother though, being a good JW, shunned him totally.
Eventually, life was too much. In his confusion, this JW teen, now in his early 20's, would go to gay bars to look to witness to gay Catholics. His desperation was such that he took his own life at the age of 21.
I knew him well. He was my brother.
I don't write that to shock you, dear reader. It was several years ago. It was one of the great regrets of my life that I couldn't do more for him, although when you are dealing with an addict, anything goes. I did talk to him on occasion just before he died. I knew he loved me, and I loved him. It was a shame that greater help couldn't be offered him. It was a shame that he was just a number to the leadership of Jehovah's Witnesses.
My brother was 1 of over 1.3 million so far. There are hundreds of thousands who have had similar experiences, (if not similar ends thank god!)
But these numbers that come in and out of Jehovah's Witnesses each year, from the young teens who are baptized far too young, to the hundreds of thousands of adults who aren't given the whole story about this group before they join, remember, they are real people. And they have EXCELLENT reasons and a sense of responsibility to inform anyone with a small interest in the affairs of the Jehovah's Witnesses, what is really up with this dangerous group.
Jeff
The good old days weren't always good
And tomorrow ain't as bad as it seems
-Billy Joel
Last Edited By: AllTimeJeff Jan 5 09 9:56 PM. Edited 2 times.
status offlineariker
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As always Jeff, you provoke thought. I appreciate your insights.
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An excellent choice for an addition to your blog. Beautifully written and thought provoking as always. Something to give the average person an insight into what has become a dangerous and harmful religious lifestyle.
"Experience is not what happens to you
... it is what you do with what happens to you."
~ Aldous Huxley ~
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If only the people in the congregations could/would read that, then surley anyone with a heart would HAVE to wonder what the hell type of religious organization would do that to a family. This has only nailed my conviction to NEVER EVER go back to thay cold hearted, murdering organization. Sorry for ranting but it really really did shock me.
I do know a little about addiction as my daughter is an addict, it must have been very difficult for you all as a family (understatement) compounded by the fact you are torn between the love for your family member and your enforced loyalty to the organization. Thought provoking and an eye opener.
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status offlinetroublingdoubts
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We really are a large army, aren't we, Jeff?
Terror's the product ya push
Well I'm a truth addict - oh sh*t I got a headrush
status offlineRonnie45
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Thanks for sharing Jeff.....This is a good post.
Even though my addiction that I had was in it's earlier stages when I was a jw, it was there. I was fortuante is all to be out of the org. when I wanted recovery from it. If I was still in the org, it would have been a really bad situation for reasons you mentioned...
I am very sorry about your brother and what could have been a preventable thing..
But these numbers that come in and out of Jehovah's Witnesses each year, from the young teens who are baptized far too young, to the hundreds of thousands of adults who aren't given the whole story about this group before they join, remember, they are real people. And they have EXCELLENT reasons and a sense of responsibility to inform anyone with a small interest in the affairs of the Jehovah's Witnesses, what is really up with this dangerous group.
I agree...
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thanks for sharing jeff. you have made a great point.
sorry to hear your brothers story mate. i have a brother who turned to drugs for a period of his life. been shunned by his old friends for not believing the truth at a young age didnt help. he wasnt baptized but the scars the "truth" leave dont go away easy for some.
very thought provoking post
status offlineWilletfel
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Thanks for sharing Jeff, I always get alot out of your posts.
I'm very sorry about your brother.
status offlinenonconformist
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Jeff, thanks for sharing this painful story. I was shocked when I came to the part that the poor guy was your own brother. That brought tears to my eyes. It's stories like these that make the deepest impression and which can hopefully get through to some brainwashed or simply ignorant people just what really goes on and what happens to many people in the JW organization.
I was a victim of repeated physical abuse by my JW mother, which led to an alcohol problem in my mid-late teens, but I managed to always get on top of it before it took over my life. I kept it secret from the congregation, which is just as well because I figured the elders would only treat it as a spiritual problem and give me the usual line about being spiritually weak because I don't do enough in the ministry and don't do enough personal Bible study and prayer. This has made me very angry over the years as well, especially when they claim to be so "enlightened" and "have their finger on the pulse on the world" so as to be on top of all the latest news and knowledge. A.A. has been successfully helping people since the 30s, and many good doctors of all sorts have been helping many addiction problems and survivors of all kinds of trauma and abuse for years already, but the GB sitting up there in their ivory tower is so detached from reality that they remind me of the inquisitors of the Dark Ages, doing witch hunts and burning anyone at the stake who doesn't exactly fit in with the rest of the mob.
Having said that... I also want to add that there does seem to be a small dawning of light, at least with some elders, because I know one personally who does believe in going to A.A. or getting professional help for abuse, trauma and addiction problems. But it's too little, too late, and so much damage has already been done. It's up to us who can share these real-life stories to make it known - and I think the message IS getting across to the GB (hey, maybe they even read this forum!) because they're slowly trying to reconcile their out-dated view on things with the reality out in the real world.
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Has anyone ever written a whole bunch of stuff down, like 4 pages worth, then your computer gets a nasty trojan, then you have to reinistall your operating system and you loose all your work? Man was I pissed!
Anywho, after that happened I kinda lost my steam for writing this book until I got an email and now a more, more from you all...ok, I'm gonna start working on it again, but this time saving everything on a flash drive....
Thank you for the nudge.
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Hi riham. 'puters can be a real pain.
What book are you referring to?
Not sure how you were nudged but hope your PC is not rebelling against you.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
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Thanks, Jeff, for posting that. It's good to hear from you. I've read your story before, so sad. I'm so sorry about your brother.
status offlineYammerHammer
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Has anyone ever written a whole bunch of stuff down, like 4 pages worth, then your computer gets a nasty trojan, then you have to reinistall your operating system and you loose all your work? Man was I pissed!
Yep. I do this all the time for people at work. It usually only happens to people once because once it happens, they make sure it never happens again.
There are only two kinds of hard-drives -- those that have failed and those that are going to fail. There is no such thing as too much backup. Minimum of one backup, but if you want to be really safe, 2 backups--keep one "off site" -- maybe keep a thumb drive in your car just in case your house burns down--it happens.
Good luck on the book! I hope you will share a few paragraphs with us!
“The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn but to unlearn.” ~ Gloria Steinem
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riham wrote:
Has anyone ever written a whole bunch of stuff down, like 4 pages worth, then your computer gets a nasty trojan, then you have to reinistall your operating system and you loose all your work? Man was I pissed!
Anywho, after that happened I kinda lost my steam for writing this book until I got an email and now a more, more from you all...ok, I'm gonna start working on it again, but this time saving everything on a flash drive....
Thank you for the nudge.
Hi there Riham and welcome ....
I'm not sure which book you're referring to either ... unless you are our Jeff returned as a Riham .........
Either way ... technology has flaws and the old 'save as you go' motto always ALWAYS comes in handy!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Are they numbers or people? Neither. they are MONEY and SLAVES. Money and slaves for the governing body(tm) to abuse as they see fit in order to obtain their goal of paedophile protection and power.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
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German Bible Students in World War One
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offlinebirdwoman2
German Bible Students in World War One
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During World War One, the Bible Students in the United States and Britain refused to do military service and several ended up serving jail terms for their anti-war position.
I have found one source, a Great War forum, that claims there were over 200 who claimed such status. However, the source does not say which countries that figure comes from.
At least 230 WW1 conscientious objectors have been identified as International Bible Students. Eight of them were among the 35 formally sentenced to death, but immediately reprieved.
In the Golden Age magazine of 1919 and the early 20s, several references are made to the Bible Students who were still in jail serving sentences for refusing military service. The problem has always seemed to be that because they also refused to do any non-combat roles, their resistance and conscientious objector status has been seen as subversive.
I have found a German website that exposes how, during the First World War, the German Bible Students did military service. The website is in German and I have had to use Google Chrome in order to read it and the translation service leaves a bit to be desired. However, it appears like something quite different was going on over the Big Pond with the German Bible Students than what was happening in North America and Britain. The website lists the names of many German Bible Students who did military service for Germany in WW1.
If I am interpreting the website correctly, it seems like the German Bible Students were told, via the German Watchtower and Charles Russell, that military duty was an honor and to use the opportunity of military service to 'witness' to the other soldiers.
The German website lists several issues of the German Watchtower in which letters were written by Bible Student readers supporting this notion and, it seems like Russell himself was commending those German Soldiers for doing their duty and for spreading the word (selling magazines and bibles) to the soldiers.
Then in the February 1915 edition of the German "Watchtower" for the first time we hear the call (p. 18)
"We would be delighted to receive the complete addresses of all the military service convened brothers and also informed of any address change to be -. For the purpose of sending the 'Watchtower', as well as personal letters from the part of the sisters'
I have downloaded the English speaking Watchtower magazines from the war years and done comparisons with the parts of the German Watchtowers that were translated and the Watchtowers from the States do not carry the same letters.
It appears like the double standard of the Watch Tower Society was in place even back in World War One.
If you were in Germany, you were told that military service was commendable. If you were in the States or Britain, you were told to go to jail.
Politically neutral?
I don't think so.
From Britain:
The names of known IBSA COs in Britain between 1916-19 are as follows:
Alexander, Thomas P
Armstrong, Cyril
Banham, FS
Barker, John Thomas
Barker, William
Bell, HW
Berry, Horace
Blaney, John Beech
Bonner, Bernard M
Bradbury, Albert
Brooker, William Arthur Henry
Burns, P
Chrimes, Harold
Clay, Edgar A
Clyma, Frederick Plimsoll
Crawford, William
Crawshaw, Richard Thomas
Durston, Edward
Ellis, Alex
Fletcher, CF
Flint, RP
Gabbott, Cecil Parr
Gasser, Oswald
Gerrard, Harry Hignett
Gibbons, H.B
Gillat Clement
Green, E
Greenless, Alfred Mitchell
Greenlees, James
Gourlay,
Guiver, Ernest James
Guiver, Charles E
Hall, Clarence
Hall, Stafford
Hamilton, James
Heeley, John Franklin
Hiscox, Joseph
Howe, Charles Robert
Hudson, H (Dr)
Hughes, Alfred Pryce
Hughes, Walter
Irwin, Harold Maude
Jackson, Charles Rowland
James, EB
Jolly Charles
Jordan, Philip Belcher
Kaye, Henry
Kime, John
Kirkwood, Alexander D
Lovegrove, Joseph C
Lowen, Archibald R
Lowen, George F
McArthur, A
McDonald, L
Marshall, Frank
Mather, HC
Matthew, WH
May, William
Miles, Archibald
Miles, J
Minto, J
North, Earnest E
Padgett, Atkinson
Parker, Lance
Phillips, George R
Pitts, AB
Platt, Frank Gordon
Prescott, C
Prowse, D
Rabson, Harold
Radwell, John Charles
Reading, Thomas Joseph
Renton, Ernest Yeoman
Renton, Leonard
Rimmington, Frank
Roberts, Edward George
Sanderson, Albert Bertram
Senior, Charles Herbert
Sewter, Alfred William
Sewter, Ernest Archibald
Scott, James Frederick
Shand, Alec
Sharman, Joseph H
Sharples, Albert
Shaw, JG
Sherwood, Frederick
Shuttleworth, HF
Sly, Charles Edward
Smith, Charles Taylor
Smith, Frank Ernest
Smith, Leonard
Smith, VW
Smith, WE
Starkey, William
Stimpson, J
Stracy, Thomas
Swetterham, William
Thackway, Hubert Charles
Thistleton, Frederick William
Tod, Guy Edwin Laurence
Trussler, Arthur William
Underwood, Tom Charles
Vallance, A
Walling, Arthur Frank
Warden, Robert
Williams, Joseph Handel
Willis, Stanley W
German Bible Students who served during the same war - note that several of the Bible Students had their death notices published in the German Watchtower - none of these death notices appear in the English Watchtowers:
Ahlften, Hero v. (see WT May 1916 p 78)
Apostle J.
Bader, Wilh. (Abgedruckter letter WT August 1915 p.128)
Balzereit, Fritz
Bashan, Robert
Bastian, Emil (abgedruckter letter WT August 1916 p 127)
Bergerhof, E.
Bobsin, Heinrich (abgedruckter letter WT August 1916 p 127)
Bongardt, H
Bostelmann, W.
Brandt, H.
Brüggert, F.
Buber, W.
Buchholz, Bernard (abgedruckter letter WT August 1916 p 125)
+ Chiarski, Emil (death notice WT December 1915 p.178)
Conzelmann, C.
Craemer, Hermann (abgedruckter letter WT July 1915 p 111)
Degert, Alfons (abgedruckter letter WT August 1916 p.126)
Dick Reuter, A.
Dieffenbacher, Eugene (abgedruckter letter WT July 1916 p 109)
Duddy, G.
Dwenger, Heinrich
Elsaesser, Robert (abgedruckter letter WT July 1916 p 110)
Grandson, F.
Ensenbach, EM
Ensenbach, Felix (abgedruckter letter WT July 1916 p 110)
+ Finger, John (death notice WT November 1915 p 162)
Fischbach, E.
Fischer, J.
Foist, H.
Freschel, Max
Friedrich, Otto (abgedruckter letter WT June 1915 p 96)
Frohlich, M.
Fuchs, E.
Gies, F. (abgedruckter letter WT July 1916 p 110)
Goeldner B.
Gries, H.
Grote, R.
Guddat, F.
Gutwill, H.
Haedike, Otto (abgedruckter letter WT September 1915 p 144)
Hagen, Hermann (abgedruckter letter WT June 1915 p 96)
+ Hamburg, Friedrich (death notice WT December 1915 p.178)
Heinrich, G.
Hellmann, Willi
Henningsen, C.
+ Hess, Fritz (death notice WT December 1915 p 178)
Heusinger, F.
Hilbich, F.
Hildebrandt, Wilh. (Abgedruckter letter WT July 1915 p 110)
Hinz, A.
Hipp, G.
Höhme, O.
Hoffmang, M.
Hoffmann, H.
Hoffmann, R.
Hüners, Wilhelm (abgedruckter letter WT October 1915 p 159)
Huhle Walter (abgedruckter letter WT July 1915 p 111)
Irendart, C.
Jacoby, O.
Jung, Friedrich (abgedruckter letter WT July 1915 S. 112th)
Kaikowski, Th
Kapp, J.
Charles, M.
Catheters, J.
Kelle, W.
Keller, W.
Kessler, Fritz (abgedruckter letter WT July 1915 p 111)
Kipke, E.
Kliegel, Franz (abgedruckter letter WT July 1915 S. 112th)
Kohlmann, J.
+ Kownatzki, Fritz (death notice WT November 1915 p 162)
Krafzig, August (abgedruckter letter WT June 1915 p.96; WT May 1916 p 79; WT July 1916 p 109)
Kreutle, A.
Kröger, A.
Kuschmierz, W.
Labuszewski, C (arl)
+ Lemke, Otto (abgedruckter letter WT August 1915 p 127; death notice WT December 1915 p.178)
Lemke, Reinh.
Lunter, Friedrich (abgedruckter letter WT August 1916 p 127)
Maier, J.
Mark Steiner, H.
+ Martin, Bruno (death notice WT December 1915 p.178)
Masanek J.
Mask, F.
Meyer, K. (abgedruckter letter WT August 1915 p 128)
Meyer, Oskar
Michaelis, R.
Micklich, W.
+ Modes, Martin (abgedruckter letter WT July 1915 p.111; death notice WT November 1916)
Muller, F.
Müller, G. (abgedruckter letter WT July 1916 p 110)
Müller, Konr.
Willi Muller (abgedruckter letter WT September 1915 p 143)
Neukrantz, M. (abgedruckter letter WT October 1915 p 159)
Neumann, O.
Niezboralla, L.
+ Nitzsche, Max (death notice, WT September 1915 p.130)
Noak, A.
Nölke, W.
+ Nohle, Erich (death notice WT December 1915 p.178)
Nolde, G.
Oehler, A.
+ Oschee, Oswald (death notice WT December 1915 p.178)
Ott, R.
Patzer, G.
Paul, F.
Petermann, G.
Raschke, J.
Rice, Aug.
Riedeberger, H.
Riedel, Albert (abgedruckter letter WT January 1916)
Rodemich, J.
Rohwer, J.
Rothstein, Henry (abgedruckter letter WT July 1915 p 110)
Rottmair, G.
Rüttmann, W.
Ruf, A.
Rungesser, F.
Salewski, G. (abgedruckter letter WT August 1915 p 127)
Sauer, BC
Sauerwein, P. (abgedruckter letter WT March 1916 p 47)
Scheuch, H.
Beautiful, A.
Schulte, A.
+ Seifert, Robert (abgedruckter letter WT September 1915 p 144; death notice WT September 1916)
Sommerfeld, W.
Speckmann, O.
Staak, W.
Staehler, A.
Statolte, K.
Steep, Max vd (abgedruckter letter WT September 1915 S. 14th; WT January 1916 WT June 1916 p 97)
Stone, A (lfred)
Stone, M.
Stephan, Otto (abgedruckter letter WT September 1915 p 144)
Stoll, Fri (abgedruckter letter WT March 1916 p 47)
Stroot, G.
Strube, O.
Süchardt, H.
Tilz, Arthur (abgedruckter letter WT June 1917, p 111)
Trenkmann, W.
Uhlig, Albert (abgedruckter letter WT May 1916 p 79)
Injustice, M.
Vogt, K.
Vollrath, H.
Chief, Ewald (abgedruckter letter WT June 1915 pp. 96f.)
Wagner, G.
+ Option (death notice WT November 1916)
Waldburger, Oskar (abgedruckter letter WT September 1915 p.143; WT June 1916 p 97)
Weber, Reinhold (abgedruckter letter WT July 1915 S. 112th)
Example, Arno (abgedruckter letter WT November 1915 p.176; WT August S. 1916 127; WT November 1916 p 175)
White, Charles (abgedruckter letter WT August 1915 p 128)
Weller House, Paul (abgedruckter letter WT March 1916 p 47)
Werth, P.
+ Widlich (death notice WT September 1916)
Winter, H.
Wnendt, M. (abgedruckter letter WT August 1916 p 127)
Wortmann, W.
Wuerth, D.
Zahn, W.
Zaimerland, H.
Zeglatis, G.
M. Zenk, M.
Keep kicking at the darkness until it bleeds daylight.
- Bruce Cockburn
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 Apr 4 13 9:56 AM. Edited 2 times.
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I don't think Brooklyn had as tight control on the non-English Watchtower back then. One yearbook back in the '80s said that in France at some point in time the Watchtower was taken over by "apostates" who published their own ideas. I remember being horrified at the thought. hide under chair Can you imagine that happening now?
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Hi Cobalt.
The organization was different in those days. Charles Russell was Da Prophet. Even though the congregations had far more autonomy, from everything that I have read, Russell ruled the corporations with a fist of iron. And he didn't care who he screwed while he was getting what he wanted. His poor wife - Russell transferred all his assets into the Watch Tower Society just so that she would get nothing. And, she had worked pretty hard building up the early Tower Publishing Corp.
Yet, I think the old prophet had a thing for women - he didn't hate them all, just his wife. Because, in his will, he named five women who were to take over his voting shares after his death. Funny thing is, those five women vaporized from the Society on an official level about the same time as that dictator Rutherford was taking power. Yup....those ladies handpicked by Da Prophet to represent his interests in the Society just became invisible - like Jesus. Maybe they were the 'Bride of Christ'.
The Watch Tower had a well established European presence by the outbreak of World War One. Russell was the main power player in Society interests in that part of the world up until his death - he posted Conrad Binkele to oversee all his European interests in 1916. Russell was active in Europe - he published a Yiddish newspaper that was distributed in Europe - Di Stimme, I think it was called. Russell had 'stuff' going on over there.
The myth of Chuckie Russell - the white haired prophet. Chuckie was quite the business man. But, I can see something happening like you describe in France. In fact, that type of thing happened everywhere - to some degree or another. Russell was always having spats with people in his little kingdom - lots of re-alignments and splintering off right from the beginning. Or people leaving and taking a bunch of people with them. That is why all those other Bible Student groups are still around.
It is pretty hard to get large groups of people to conform to the same idea - it is hard to get two people to agree completely and the problem gets worse the bigger the group gets!
And actually, Cobalt - that kind of thing is happening right now. Except the groups don't take over the printing presses - they are using the internet.
But, about the German Bible Students serving in the military during the Great War - from what I understand from trying to piece the bad translation on the above German webpages, it seems like Russell was actually encouraging the German men to enlist - and to take Watchtowers with them when they went so they could preach to the other soldiers. There is a clear difference in the articles and letters of The English Watchtower and the German Watchtower. A deliberate difference. Letters printed in the German Watchtower speaking of relatives serving in the army were not printed in the English Watchtowers. Instead, English Watchtowers from 1915 had praise for the Bible Students who were opposing the war effort - including a 14 year old boy who was put in jail.
In Britain, the Bible Students were going to jail, taking a a totally different political stance than their German bethren. But....actually, thinking about it - not different - fighting for the same side. One on the battlefield and one in a resistance capacity - refusing to fight. The British Bible Students were put in jail for refusing to go to war against their German brothers who were fighting on the battlefield.
The United States didn't enter into the war until 1917.
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 Apr 6 13 6:32 AM. Edited 2 times.
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I appreciate all of your research, Birdwoman. Very interesting.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Yes, we do appreciate the research others do.
Remember about "York" - cannot remember his first name. He was a conscientious objector that would go to battle and be known for being a hero for what he did.
And now we are at 2014 - soon to be 2015 that whenever I hear the phrase- it sickens me because we are at the stage in life when we see how those 'conscientious objectors' will take advantage of everything at the expense of how others died so they can have the freedom to preach their JW bullshit!smiley: mad
There's a lot I could say about war because we are a military family...and it's not pretty.
We are totally against 'conscientious objectors'! If they don't like the way their particular country functions....move somewhere else! Or, perhaps get involved with helping create a change.
"All gave some, some gave all."
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Dr. Death and Child Sacrifice
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offlinebirdwoman2
Dr. Death and Child Sacrifice
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Historical context is critical to understanding the WTS' blood 'doctrine'. How they sold their position to the professional community is an important step in recognizing the WTS' complicity in creating so many, many needless deaths over the past 7 decades.
The Watchtower Society has used/misused/misrepresented quotes and articles from many different medical doctors in order to promote their no blood 'doctrine' to the medical and legal community. The Society has been very, very pro-active in their shameless promotion of child sacrifice, requiring that parents go against that which is normal - the Society requires that parents sacrifice, not only themselves, but also their children, to the bloodthirsty Jehovah Blood God.
The Society's promotion of 'alternatives' to blood transfusions is as old as the blood 'doctrine' itself. In 1973, they published this book, and placed it into medical research hospital libraries:
29036338142abc4808645423328da7af1d58b35b
At the time of the above book's publication, Dr. Kevorkian (dubbed Dr. Death) was in the early stages of his career. Dr. Kevorkian's article, Our Unforgivable Trespass, a 1966 article that supported refusing blood transfusions for children, was one of the articles selected by the Watchtower Society to present to the professional community in support of their death doctrine.
About Dr. Kevorkian:
Early Career
While serving his residency at the University of Michigan hospital in the 1950s, Kevorkian became fascinated by death and the act of dying. He made regular visits to terminally ill patients, photographing their eyes in an attempt to pinpoint the exact moment of death. Kevorkian believed that doctors could use the information to distinguish death from fainting, shock or coma in order to learn when resuscitation was useless. "But really, my number one reason was because it was interesting," Kevorkian told reporters later. "And my second reason was because it was a taboo subject."
Not one to avoid distasteful ideas, Kevorkian again caused a stir with colleagues by proposing that death-row prison inmates be used as the subjects of medical experiments while they were still alive. Inspired by research that described medical experiments the ancient Greeks conducted on Egyptian criminals, Kevorkian formulated the idea that similar modern experiments could not only save valuable research dollars, but also provide a glimpse into the anatomy of the criminal mind. In 1958, he advocated his view in a paper presented to the American Association for the Advancement of Science.
In a method he called "terminal human experimentation", he argued that condemned convicts could provide a service to humanity before their execution by volunteering for "painless" medical experiments that would begin while they were conscious, but would end in fatality. For his unorthodox experiments and strange proposals, Jack Kevorkian's peers gave him the nickname "Dr. Death."
Kevorkian's controversial views earned him minor media attention which ultimately resulted in his ejection from the University of Michigan Medical Center. He continued his internship at Pontiac General Hospital instead, where he began another set of controversial experiments. After hearing about a Russian medical team who was transfusing blood from corpses into living patients, Kevorkian enlisted the help of medical technologist Neal Nicol to simulate these same experiments.
The results were highly sucessful, and Kevorkian believed the procedure could help save lives on the battlefield -- if blood from a bank was unavailable, doctors might use Kevorkian's research to transfuse the blood of corpse into an injured soldier. Kevorkian pitched his idea to the Pentagon, figuring it could be used in Vietnam, but the doctor was denied a federal grant to continue his research. Instead, the research fueled his reputation as an outsider, scared his colleagues and eventually infected Kevorkian with Hepatits C.
Crusade for Assisted Suicide
After qualifying as a specialist in 1960, Kevorkian bounced around the country from hospital to hospital, publishing more than 30 professional journal articles and booklets about his philosophy on death, before setting up his own clinic near Detroit, Michigan. The business ultimately failed, and Kevorkian headed to California to commute between two part-time pathology jobs in Long Beach. These jobs also ended quickly when Kevorkian quit in another dispute with a chief pathologist; Jack claimed that his career was doomed by physicians who feared his radical ideas.
Kevorkian "retired" to devote his time to a film project about Handel's Messiahas well as research for his reinvigorated death-row campaign. By 1970, however, Kevorkian was still jobless and had also lost his fiancee; he broke off the relationship after finding his bride-to-be lacking in self-discipline. By 1982, Kevorkian was living alone, occasionally sleeping in his car, living off of canned food and social security.
I will post the entire Kevorkian article in the next post for your reading pleasure and convenience.
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- Bruce Cockburn
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*please note - the underlined sections in the following article were added before the book was published - Watchtower men would have selected those passages, underlined them, and then the book was published - the original article did not have the underlining. I have included the underlining to show what the WTS felt were the critical parts that supported their position.
Clinical Pediatrics, Vol 5, No. 12
Vox Paed
Our Unforgivable Trespass
Jack Kevorkian, M.D.
Scene: Saturday night in a city hospital. An anemic six-year-old child must undergo an emergency major operation. Several blood transfusions will be necessary before the surgeon can begin his work. Without the transfusions chances of survival are nil; the outlook is greater than 50-50 if the blood is given. But the parents refuse permission for transfusion! They will allow surgery but blood is not to be given to their child. Their religious principles absolutely proscribe it. All argumentation is to no avail. Doctors and hospital officials are perplexed, angered, and even outraged. Hurriedly a meeting is held. What to do? The courts are closed till Monday. There’s only one recourse. A judge is called, and an emergency “court” session is held in his home. After this due process of law, the child is made a temporary waif and a ward of the court. Authority is immediately granted to the medical personnel to proceed with transfusions and surgery. The blood is given. The operation is performed. And all ends well.
Or does it? One can say only that most ends well, for the will of the majority triumphed in the above dramatic situation – the will of the doctors, nurses, technologists, judges, administrators, and lay masses composing society. They are the “good guys” who saved a life despite the stupid, narrow-minded, misguided, fanatic obstinacy of two pitiful human beings who should know better. These two are part of the antipodal minority who, if they are realistic, do not hope to be heeded in the illogical rush of modern society.
Posed, however, is a far more profound problem than the superficial judicial treatment described here would indicate. Criss-crossing through it are divergent concepts of the importance and meaning of religion and law, of disease and health, and of life and death. Such concepts and the reactions to them are grounded firmly in a wide spectrum of subjectivity, scrutiny of which has taxed the greatest philosophical minds. To even begin to probe their connection with the problem at hand is hopelessly beyond the scope of this brief exploration of insight and understanding and, perhaps, even of sympathy for the child’s parents.
The first obvious question is crucial: which is the highest ideal and the greatest Good, religion or secular law? If one answers law, then for him, the problem doesn’t even exist. He can stop here, for the greatest Good in theory will have prevailed over a lesser (by definition) Good in practice. This is consistent and logical, but basically irreligious and atheistic.
If one answers that both are equally Good, the conflict becomes insoluble. The morality of any action concerning it would, of necessity, become unassessable in any instance. The concepts “law” and “religion” would be artificial indefinable, and fundamentally inseparable. He, too, can stop here.
Now, if religion or any sort of faith in the supernatural is higher than law, then the problem is again easily resolved. Where the two conflict, religious tenets will prevail. But just what is religion? Does a highly unorthodox snake-handling cult constitute a religious faith? Would its doctrines supersede law? It seems to me that any group of individuals professing a certain faith, no matter how extraordinary or “fallacious” it may seem, ought to be allowed to exercise the principles of that faith, even at the risk of possible bodily or spiritual damage to themselves, so long as others outside that faith are in no way threatened or endangered. Thus law, in this example admittedly a lesser Good, should not supersede faith except to protect non-believers. (just as in epidemics of contagious diseases the rights and liberties of an individual are restricted by law to protect the welfare of the community). Deadly snakes may harm some one not directly concerned with ritual handling, and the practice could justifiably be regulated by law. On the other hand, if receiving a blood transfusion is contrary to the religious teachings being followed by an individual, judicial enforcement would be immoral; for society would thereby have invoked a lesser Good to violate a higher principle in a situation not threatening, by any stretch of the imagination, any person or group holding any other belief or philosophic view.
Even if such intervention were assumed to be ethical and logical beyond question, one could not be sure that the action taken would indeed be beneficial for the individual concerned. It is true today that blood transfusions under certain circumstances are undeniably beneficial, and that to doubt this borders on insanity. At the same time one should bear in mind that to have doubted the medical efficacy of using leeches for exsanguinations – even in the treatment of undetected or unrecognized anemia – at the time it was practiced several centuries ago would likewise have been branded insanity and heresy of the highest order. Can any rational man say with sincere certainty that the use of blood transfusions will not be looked upon as utter foolishness several centuries hence?
The point in all this is clear. Current medical procedures are at best only relatively beneficial, being based upon empirical knowledge and experience. Knowledge yet to be gained is not only infinite in amount and quality; it vastly outweighs that which we have. In other words, everything humans think or do is based on relative ignorance, not on relative knowledge. This very precarious situation is easy to ignore. To compound things by using that precarious state to justify forcible desecration of a defenseless citizen’s own spiritual world would b tolerable only to a callous, passionate, and reckless organism such as man. If in the future blood transfusions are adjudged to be a form of “leech medicine”, then posterity will have cause to damn us doubly. That is the risk the “good guys” are taking, though to them it may seem specious or small.
Up to this point many might agree without a great deal of persuasion. What seems to be unacceptable is the concept of endangering the life of an innocent ignorant child through scrupulous adherence to religious doctrine. One should not lose sight of the fact that primary responsibility for the rearing and welfare of the child rests with the parents. They are closer to the child both physically and spiritually than the impersonal corporation called “society”. They have the right - indeed, almost a duty – to impart their religious or philosophical doctrines (within the framework mentioned earlier) to the child. Their right has priority. If the parents chose to live or die according to the dictates of a certain creed, then the child should follow suit. In essence, both act involuntarily; the effect is caused by what is designated as divine revelation, and not by human volition or caprice.
The dilemma boils down to a vital philosophical argument: in questions involving personal highest principles of parents versus law of society, which should hold sway? If the latter, as is now the case, then pure socialism is the greatest Good, and Plato’s Republic is the bible, and one could never know (or care) which principles could be foisted on whose children. Organized religion would be no more than a meaningless farce and a mockery; the state supreme.
Perhaps the most fundamental question is what is the value of terrestrial life, anyway? Is it to be valued above all else? If so, then society’s present outlook is correct. Save the life of the child at all costs! Spend all the money; use all the material; smash all the doctrines! Socrates be damned!
If not, if there is some principle higher than life, if Socrates point did get across, then the “good guys” are wrong. The life of the child becomes less important than the integrity of religious principles to which the parents adhere and according to which they wish to raise him.
Maybe the warmth of a historical example will drive home this point more firmly. Most people in the Western World profess to be Christians. They respect other Christians and almost deify the early martyrs who were fed to the lions in ancient Rome rather than renounce their faith. Almost deify them! Yet those early martyrs joyously allowed their own children to die in lions’ jaws. Innocent, ignorant children! And the martyrs are idolized, because 2000 years ago they were the “good guys” who apparently professed exactly the same principles as the “good guys” do today, and who luckily didn’t have to worry about the transfusion problem complicating the harassment of Nero’s legions. Why for religious reasons can the involuntary, artificial (and much more grotesque) death of children then be almost divine, and the involuntary, but entirely natural death of the same kind of children for the same reasons now be almost criminal? After all, in both instances minority beliefs are and were involved? What’s the difference?
Lack of reason and common sense, and emotionalism, and hypocrisy – these make the difference; and it’s a big one to most minds!
Keep kicking at the darkness until it bleeds daylight.
- Bruce Cockburn
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Interesting. Thanks for the research and for posting.
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Blood, the FDA, the US Army, the US Navy, and the Watchtower Society
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offlinebirdwoman2
Blood, the FDA, the US Army, the US Navy, and the Watchtower Society
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Nov 12 14 3:09 AM
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Well, you can say that you heard it here first.
I decided to post this here first because of my years of research, on this forum, in the area of the Watchtower Society's death doctrine - the no blood position. I have held onto the position that the blood doctrine is not a biblical position but rather one that allows the WTS to be involved in the high stakes game of medical research - life and death.
I have endured accusations of being a conspiracy theorist by the exJW community themselves.
I am satisfied and pleased to be able to finally offer the evidence that so many people have demanded. What I am not pleased about, however, is that so many JWs have died being horribly deceived by an evil organization.
The Watchtower Society blood doctrine is intricately linked to clinical trials in blood technology. The WTS deliberately changes and manipulates the blood doctrine in order to fill the requirements for medical testing in the field of blood technology. It has been happening since the start of the blood ban and has continued for the last 70 years, leaving untold numbers of dead and maimed JWs in the wake of the Society’s quest for ‘everlasting life here on earth’.
The search for the Holy Grail of the blood industry, artificial blood, is one that the Watchtower Society is heavily and actively involved in.
In 2000, when the Society announced their approval of Hemopure, their approval pre-dated the FDA approval for general use. The Society’s approval was put in place to satisfy the demands of clinical trials. The Society, along with its Hospital Liaison Committee, needed to fill their promise of providing lab rats for military research and for the promotion of Biopure blood substitutes. In 2000, Hemopure was being tested for safety and efficacy and it was the JWs who were offered up as lab rats to try it out – the Society’s approval was just that – they approved a sample group for medical research.
In 2008, after a meta-analysis of the trials for Hemopure and other blood substitutes revealed the high rate of death and side effects, the FDA was involved in evaluating whether or not the clinical trials would proceed. They had stopped clinical trials because of high mortality rates in the subjects that had been given blood substitutes and the FDA had a panel of experts gathered to discuss the pros and cons of allowing artificial blood research to continue.
The following document that I am going to post a link to, reveals the complicity of the Watchtower Society in the push to proceed forward with a blood product that had questionable safety. The Watchtower Society was involved in the FDA hearing because they were offering up the JWs as a control group for the US military to continue the trials they had already been involved in.
The Watchtower Society is giving its politically neutral followers to the US military – instead of serving in uniform, the JWs get to serve their country in a different way – they can die as lab rats. And the reason the US Army and Navy want them for a control group? Well, Army medical personnel have to abide by the RESUS model – they have to resort to proven methods of resuscitation if the patient is on the verge of dying. In other words, if an Army doctor uses artificial blood on a patient, and they are dying, if real blood is available, they have to resort to using it. But, with a JW patient, they can continue to use the artificial blood until they die. Why this is important to the military is that it gives them a ‘base-line’ measurement – something that is impossible with any other group except the JWs.
The Watchtower Society is, and has been for 70 years, using the blood doctrine to create a control group for medical research. And, they are in bed with the US Department of Defense in doing so. The JWs are being used for military purposes, with the full knowledge and cooperation of the Watchtower Society.
This is a long document, over 300 pages. But, there are many, very interesting, things revealed in it. I will be happy to discuss anything that anyone would like to say about this document and I will try to answer any questions that anyone has about the contents of the document, if I am able to.
I would like to take the time to break down the document in detail, but, with 300 pages to go through, it is a formidable task and one that I may tackle later. In the meantime, here is the link for your reading pleasure:
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/biologicsbloodvaccines/newsevents/workshopsmeetingsconferences/ucm133812.pdf
It is bleeding daylight.
Keep kicking at the darkness until it bleeds daylight.
- Bruce Cockburn
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 Nov 12 14 3:29 AM. Edited 2 times.
status offlineCeili
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Hat off, birdwoman, for your energy to research!
What I would like to know is if there are other sources to corroborate the story - like JW that allowed themselves to be tested (if they survived)?
If there are testimonies in the document-link, my apologies, I haven't looked!
Ceili xx
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Hi Ceili,
No, there are no testimonies as the document is from the FDA website. It is an actual transcript of an entire day of presentations by various individuals representing different entities.
There are many very interesting details revealed in the paper. It is a dense read in places - but you can just skip over the science jargon and look for the places that the WTS pops up - at the very end of the transcript is revealed the longstanding and intimate relationship that exists between the WTS and some of the players in this high stake game of biotechnology. *I believe the phrase used by one of the presenters is "our Jehovah's Witness cohort". - I re-read parts of the transcript - that phrase was used to refer to a JW patient.
As far as the JWs that 'allowed' themselves to be tested, I don't think that there were many, if any, survivors. At one point in the transcript, it is mentioned that the fatality rate was almost 100% in the artificial blood group. And the 'side effect' observed was heart attack.
What is tragically apparent in the transcript, is the blatant misinformation that the JWs are being fed by the WTS. The JWs believe that blood is 'dirty', that you can get disease from blood transfusions. What the Society hasn't told them, and they should have when they 'approved' Hemopure, is that Hemopure is just as susceptible to a virus contamination as is human blood. I would bet money that the JWs don't know that. Or the stats on how safe our blood supply actually is.
Keep kicking at the darkness until it bleeds daylight.
- Bruce Cockburn
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 Nov 12 14 8:06 AM. Edited 1 times.
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And here is the other thing about 'testimonials'. You won't get any because the JWs are not aware that they are only lab rats - they don't know that they are being enrolled in clinical trials - the LAR consent has that all sewed up tight. The 'Legally Authorized Representative" - who usually is a Society man - doesn't have to tell the JWs anything - the LAR has full power over the subject's life. The Watchtower Society has abused the concept of the LAR consent. The spirit of the LAR consent is that the person signing over rights is incapable of making sound decisions. Like, for an elderly parent or someone like that. The WTS has made every one of their followers, by asking them to sign the LAR consent, into incompetent individuals.
It has been a long time coming, but the WTS has the membership exactly where they need them - signing over their LIVES to the WTS . The most valuable piece of paper to the Watchtower Sciety is the LAR document - the one that gives the HLC complete control over what happens to your body. The Watchtower Society is a ghoul - they deal in the flesh market, the Red Market. They sell their members, as lab rats, to the highest bidder.
And the JW lab rats are pretty special - they are the perfect control group - they refuse blood (which eliminates one vital factor that makes it difficult to test certain drugs and the extreme limits of procedures); they don't smoke, and ....cha ching.....they don't serve in the military. The JWs satisfy so many different research ideals - they are a 'clean', controlled group, and that is very, very, valuable to researchers.
Keep kicking at the darkness until it bleeds daylight.
- Bruce Cockburn
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 Nov 12 14 4:07 AM. Edited 1 times.
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BirdWoman 2 - I'll have to reread through this again because there is a lot of information to research...although I do believe the JW' and all the other groups are 'bedfellows" for their "Self-Serving" interest at the expense of others.
So, we not only have religion we also have politics. Thanks for reminding me that my tiny bit of the world will discuss such because they are both controlling.
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Birdwoman I find this interesting and find that something is peeking at me in the back of my mind that won't show itself. I keep thinking that there were two JW's involved in either Hemopure or with Biopure business directly. I vaguely remember something about how they were at the start of the business but left shortly thereafter or something. If you know what I am alluding to please let me know. I am not very good at research and have tried looking up the people named in the article but can't find anyone pointed out as a JW.
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Hi Inspector.
I would be very interested in finding evidence of the links between Hemopure/Biopure and JWs. However, I have not made conclusive connections even though I am convinced that they exist.
I have found some connections that are murky but I lack the resources required to dig deep enough.
The timeline of developments in bloodless research coincides with the changes in directives concerning allowable blood procedures according to WTS doctrine. The WTS blood policy serves the needs of medical research far more than it serves any sort of spiritual need.
There is huge, huge money in supplying research subjects to pharma companies and medical device companies. And for military research. Big money. Huge money. Just think of the 70 years of blood ban abd start adding up kickbacks to the WTS. BIG money.
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 Dec 21 14 5:12 PM. Edited 1 times.
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Sorry for the formatting. Damn mobile wont do paragraph breaks. Ha! Fixed it.
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 Dec 21 14 5:13 PM. Edited 1 times.
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Hi, birdwoman. VERY revealing. Thanks so much for sharing. I remember back in the early 2000's (don't remember the exact date) being told synthetic blood would be OK to accept. Can't remember if it was in some article or from the platform; I was already on my out then and payed as little attention as I could. I DO remember Hemopure was never mentioned by name. The main point is, it was spoken of to us R&F as if synthetic blood was a proven treatment accepted by the general medical community. As for JWs being involved with Biopoure as shareholders or in some official capacity (managers; liaisons; what have you) a place to start would be any SEC filings. That's how the WTBTS involvement with RandCam came to light.Thanks again for sharing your hard work.
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The main point is, it was spoken of to us R&F as if synthetic blood was a proven treatment accepted by the general medical community.
Exactly!
The ordinary JW had no idea that they were being entered into clinical trials - they thought, erroneously, that artificial blood was a proven treatment and had no idea that they were the ones being used to attempt to prove the treatment. They did not realize that their risk of dying was increased by taking artificial blood.
Keep kicking at the darkness until it bleeds daylight.
- Bruce Cockburn
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Having worked in the medical field to some extent I am quite interested. Thanks for bringing the document to our attention. I must say that I do personally know that blood is a very dangerous prescription and fraught with hazards. It is not safe. However the substitutes are not safe either. I have not been able to read the document through carefully. I do want to bring up the fact that most of what we call modern medicine is in an experimental movement. The entire medical industry is a 'money maker" more concerned with figuring out how to offer expensive treatments that make a lot of money for the doctors and suppliers. We are all being victimized by the medical industry today, while they suppress and persecute alternative practitioners in the healing arts. Of course emergency care is mainly what we are talking about with blood transfusions although I know of many who pushed "just a pint of blood' to build up patients blood. Considering the risks this was a crazy movement at the time and is I hope not used any more. I have to say that Africa has been used for years as a petrie dish or place that they have tested many things without the consent of the people. Here is another site to check out. It is a document called "Radium in Humans". I did a report on this for my school and it is about the testing of radioactive substances, without the people's knowledge for decades. The facts are all there. yes they gave people plutonium and other substances without their knowledge. Let's not forget that the U.S. military has beyond any doubt forced the soldiers to get experimental immunizations for years and that there are many sick and dying now. The "Gulf War Syndrome". Yes it is wrong if the WBTS cooperated in using the J.W's as "lab rats". I think though that most would view it as trying to find a market for a new product that would not have the dangers of human blood. Unfortunately the human body does not run on chemicals.. When will they ever learn that? As for me I don't want anybody else's blood, or their organs, or cadaver parts or even their blood fractions. I am alarmed and distressed over the possibility of forced immunizations in the future as I know how bogus they are and how dangerous and the conspiracy behind it all. An important site to find out about immunizations is Dr. Leonard Horowitz sites. He also has written books one of which is "Emerging Viruses'. I don't know if the J.W.s knew that by taking the artificial blood that they would be in a clinical trial but these things do happen all the time with so many treatments today. I do believe that a good point about the blood issue is that at the time of the writing about blood there were no blood transfusions. I think it would have been better if the facts were presented and people left to make their own decisions without pressure. I had the experience in the 70's of visiting a sister who had caved in and taken a blood transfusion, of course she was up for disfellowshipping. I went right a way and visited her. I just felt compassion for her with all she went through. They did not disfellowship her but I think she was put on 'reproof'. This whole thing about disfellowshipping people for things like this is really a murderous practice and one that I don't believe was warranted.
"
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It does not surprise me at all Dianne ... that the WBTS would be directly involved in medical research and yet not be upfront about it. I remember when my mother was diagnosed with blood cancer just over five years ago ... my dad made the mistake of saying to me 'we are going to the local hospital liaison committee to find out what we are allowed to do and what treatment your mum is allowed to have'.
It wasn't just the 'allowed to do' and 'allowed to have' bit of his statement that got to me ... it was the fact that the local hospital liaison committee's main person is a bloody carpet cleaner! None of them are medical professionals. The main committee in Perth used to be (probably still is) run by Shannon Farmer ..... one of the Western Australian jdubs making a huge profit by being on the bloodless surgery committees etc in the city. He is not a medical professional either!
Like you ... it upsets me that so many jdubs in the past have died not just for the medical research stuff they were unaware of ... but because blood of any kind was not 'allowed' including 'blood products'. Then as you pointed out, things changed in 2000 and no doubt other times. I read through my parents 'No Blood' document ..... with the boxes they can tick of all the things they can have now. Things that directly or indirectly ... the WBTS lays claim to being a big part of. Without their input and their quest to find non-blood alternatives ... this one and that one wouldn't be alive today ............ bleat bleat bleat.
I do not believe the WBTS will ever be honest with the diehard followers of the religion ......... for fear they would lose bums on seats and cash in the bank.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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I must say that I do personally know that blood is a very dangerous prescription and fraught with hazards. It is not safe.
Womanbeyondtime, can you please tell me where you get that information? Because...it just isn't accurate. Not by a long stretch.
From the FDA document that I linked to above ( a quote from Mr. Emmanuel, Clinical Bioethics Department
National Institutes of Health):
...red cells are just very, very safe, probably the safest intervention that the whole healthcare system uses.
You know, some of you may know about the six sigmas in production, that if you can get the six sigmas, you know, you're very, very safe. The airline industry gets there, other -- your cell phone gets there and it turns out that, as best as I can see, red cells are probably the only thing we do in the healthcare system that passes the six sigma rate.
The six sigma rate is 0.4 defects in a million episodes. It's just really tremendously safe.
Now, you can continue to believe the information that the Watchtower Society feeds to you about medical safety of blood transfusions, or you can get your information from reputable sources. Make your choice. It means life and death for you.
Keep kicking at the darkness until it bleeds daylight.
- Bruce Cockburn
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 Dec 26 14 6:24 PM. Edited 1 times.
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Yes it is wrong if the WBTS cooperated in using the J.W's as "lab rats". I think though that most would view it as trying to find a market for a new product that would not have the dangers of human blood.
Actually, "most" is not an accurate way to describe those who who think like that.
Most of those in the field of bioethics would view that as extremely unethical - bordering on criminal.
The LARS consent form is a legal document that is put in place to protect the rights of those who cannot make their own medical decisions. The key word here is 'cannot'....what the WTS has done with their misuse of LARS consent, is effectively make every JW who signs one into an incompetent individual. Incompetent. Mentally and intellectually.
And then, the next key word in the LARS consent is 'informed'. Informed consent means that the patient is informed. Fully. And the JWs are not informed fully.
The way that the WTS uses the HLC and LARS consent goes against the principles upon which medical research ethical guidelines were founded upon.
status onlinewomanbeyondtime
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I have not read the paper that you linked thoroughly but as I say I do have experience working in hospitals in England and the U.S. and have studied medicine and work in alternative care. Yes there are people who make a case as you say that blood is safe. If it was terribly safe they would not have to be so careful in accepting donors or in the storing of blood. We all know that blood carries disease. It is a life giving fluid to the body but also carries waste to the eliminative organs and innately has the ability to transfer any disease that the person has to another person. That is why, for 1 example, the hazmat suits were used in treating Ebola or any other type of communicable disease via blood, All secretions of the body can carry the disease of the person and blood is the topmost. They cannot pasteurize blood as that would render it's oxygen carrying capacity void. They try to screen it but unfortunately they have to know what they are looking for. They do ask questions and screen for certain things but it is well known that many diseases or inaccurately tested people have slipped through their hands. Anyone who has had a blood transfusion can be at risk for a number of diseases such as Hepatitis C or AIDS or any number of other diseases such as Chager's (sorry spelling) especially in South America. At the very best as far as it's "life saving capacity" it should be avoided to the extreme. I do believe they were accurate in their description of the hazards. It is also in itself a money making racket. Keeping in relationship to the theme though is there proof that the WTBS has taken "kickbacks" for their handing over the witnesses for experimental purposes? I am not up on the legality of all the LARS documents. In effect all people who go into a hospital are signing over their decision making capability to medical professionals. That to me is a scary thought. I have always said that everyone who goes into a hospital should have an advocate. I would never want anyone I loved or cared about to be in a hospital without someone with them 24/7. Call me paranoid but I have seen too much. Yes it is a terrifying thought that any of the elders that I have known should be in charge of liason committees. I don't think they would have walked across the street for me and as they said "we're not psychologists". Well they probably are not medical practitioners either. It is terrible to find ones self in the grip of a crisis and have the level of "help" that I have seen time and again with the commitees of JW's. I say pity anyone who has to rely on their good graces. However as I said, I would not condemn anyone who decided to take a blood transfusion for whatever their reason but I would not trust the blood supply and to tell you the truth I would rather die than take a blood transfusion, or an organ donation. I truly would. I could go on about that too. but I will spare you. Medical care issues are a very hot topic for people I don't deal with extraordinary care issues most days but I do try to keep people from going there by offering alternative therapies. I have had family issues where myself or my family needed such extraordinary treatments but fortunately I have also avoided a lot and never been pressured to take blood. Medical care is a big field. It is best to prepare ahead for issues and I myself am going to be doing some educational classes next year that I hope will enlighten people as to alternatives to many things that may lead people to unnecessary surgeries or other procedures that may put them at risk in the hands of the medical practitioners to their harm. I do feel deeply for anyone who has suffered or lost someone who was pressured to make any decision regarding their medical care by the WBTS. There are so many factors here though that ultimately if we have lost someone it is good to have a firm belief in life going on in the future for all who have died regardless of how it happened.
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Yes, there are risks to blood transfusions. But there are risks to ANY medical procedure or treatment. Aspirin can be deadly if misused. Any operation can go bad. What it comes down to is, are the risks acceptable to the one faced with the procedure? That's where informed consent is so vital. Possible risks and benefits need to be spelled out. If an adult in their right mind refuses blood transfusions, that's their choice to make. For me, the risks of a transfusion are acceptable compared to the alternative. That's where I parted ways with the WTBTS. THEY wanted control of a decision that should be mine alone.
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For me, the risks of a transfusion are acceptable compared to the alternative.
Me too. In fact, without a blood transfusion, I wouldn't be sitting here typing this right now. I would be dead.
Risks associated with blood transfusions? Of course there is...but....what is an acceptable risk, death or living with a disease? - the risk of dying increases substantially in most cases if you don't have a blood transfusion. Not only that, but oxygen deprivation from lack of blood has long term health risks associated with it. Why doesn't the HLC tell JWs that they could have permanent brain damage from loss of oxygen? Or lose fingers and toes?
The WTS gets all the JWs all riled up whether or not they are going to get (horror!) a disease that is normally transmitted sexually, and all of a sudden, death and possible permanent brain damage as a side effect of refusing blood gets shoved to the background.
Scared of blood transfusions? What about being scared of dying from not having a blood transfusion? Blood transfusions have saved far, far more lives than the number of lives lost from the side effects of blood transfusions.
I am so sick and tired of hearing of all the Bad Things associated with blood transfusions and NOTHING about the greatest risk of all. Dying from lack of blood.
And....for all you JWs out there, and you ex's who still hold onto the no blood doctrine because of the WTS no blood propaganda, do you really know the alternatives? Do you really understand what hemodilution and cell saver procedures are? Personally, I prefer the risks associated with blood transfusions over the reality of 'bloodless surgery' procedures. I prefer a needle in my arm with life-saving blood dripping into me over having most of my blood removed, stored in bags, having non-blood fluid pumped into me, and having my body temperature reduced to just above survival temperatures. And then having a blood transfusion anyways (with all the mechanical risks of allogenic transfusions), albeit with my own blood, that has been hanging in bags while the surgery is happening. Or having a machine suck up my shed blood out of an incision site, having my blood filtered through a machine, and then, again...undergoing a blood transfusion of my own blood back into my body.
Heck...there are even accounts of people that have been kept alive (proud bragging rights of 'bloodless' surgery) for many days without hardly any blood in their bodies. This....the suspension of a human body without blood in it...is the future/current reality of bloodless surgery.
It is not my choice to face the possibility of being my body being held in a suspended state while my blood has been drained out of me. Nope. Not for me.
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 Dec 27 14 3:30 PM. Edited 1 times.
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I know of two jw boys who were born with, I think it is water on the brain. Whatever it is, it is a condition that they can go in to correct while the baby is still in the womb, and then the baby will be born ok. The two moms didn't get it done because doctors wouldn't do it without the mothers agreeing to accept blood if needed during the procedure. Both boys have permanent brain damage and both are in wheelchairs. And they could have been born and been normal if their mothers would have had the procedure while the baby was still in the womb. Those boys lives are ruined just because of the Watchtower Society.
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I thought it was really crazy when they said you could not use leeches. I have read some pretty amazing things done with them. I don't see a problem with using leeches even if you try to follow their first line of reasoning. There are some pretty horrific treatments out there these days. I think it should have been given some more thought. I could not believe it when they said it was ok to use organ donations. Like I say to each his own. There are good reasons to avoid blood but if a person wants to live and wants a treatment that they are offering and accepts the brevity of what it may offer or the problems connected with that treatment, I do believe it should be up to that person. It is really hard for them to make a case against blood when they do accept blood fractions or consider organ transplants just fine. This is where the problem lies, they have stepped into legalism as religion and that without really educating themselves on the topics beyond their narrow scope. The next thing is even if they had educated themselves, is to instead of legalism, offer compassion instead of controls in situations that are relatively rare and where people just simply have to take responsibility for themselves and their actions, leave it up to individuals, without censure, to just make their own decisions. As I said I avoid blood in all it's forms more for the health connections than the idea of it's symbolic nature as life. though.... Don't we admire the movies of the Indians who would kill an animal and then ask pardon for taking it's life and thanks for the life that now sustains? When a person accepts a blood transfusion it is not as if he is killing the other person to get that blood. It is a donation not a murder to get their blood. When we kill an animal we do take it's life. I wonder if they are really understanding the message in the Bible.
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I know of two jw boys who were born with, I think it is water on the brain. Whatever it is, it is a condition that they can go in to correct while the baby is still in the womb, and then the baby will be born ok. The two moms didn't get it done because doctors wouldn't do it without the mothers agreeing to accept blood if needed during the procedure. Both boys have permanent brain damage and both are in wheelchairs. And they could have been born and been normal if their mothers would have had the procedure while the baby was still in the womb. Those boys lives are ruined just because of the Watchtower Society.
That is a terrible position that the WTS has put those mothers in. It is normal for mothers to want the best for their children and outdated ideas about blood transfusions has ruined, not only the lives of those two boys, but also has interfered with the lives of the parents who are faced with dealing with a disabled child.
What year(s) did this happen in, Cacky? I hear of these horrible medical situations where someone has to refuse surgery because they won't take blood, yet the JWs promote 'bloodless' surgery as an option. How come not all of the JWs are offered this option if bloodless surgery is supposed to be (according to the WTS propaganda) a viable option?
There are good reasons to avoid blood but if a person wants to live and wants a treatment that they are offering and accepts the brevity of what it may offer or the problems connected with that treatment, I do believe it should be up to that person
There are also good reasons to avoid blood substitutes.
As sg75 said earlier:
Possible risks and benefits need to be spelled out. If an adult in their right mind refuses blood transfusions, that's their choice to make.
What the WTS does not tell their members about blood substitutes is summed up well in the following quote. This information comes from an article, The Management of Adult Jehovah’s Witnesses published in the journal Anesthesia and Critical Care (pg. 129):
HBOC DISADVANTAGES
There are a number of disadvantages of haemoglobin based oxygen carriers compared to blood. Despite modification,
they have a short intravascular half life of 16 to 24 hours, compared to 60 to 90 days for red blood cells, making
repeat administration necessary. Cost is also higher than transfused red blood cells when compared on a unit-tounit
basis.
Use of haemoglobin based oxygen carriers also interferes with many common laboratory tests, especially those
which are measured spectrophotometrically. Albumin, alkaline phosphatase, bilirubin and creatinine may all be
inaccurate. Optical methods of measuring coagulation will be misleading. Plasma will have a pink discoloration
and routine laboratory tests will not be able to differentiate between haemolysis and the presence of a haemoglobin
solution. Plasma free haemoglobin levels are measured to determine the amount of haemoglobin based oxygen
carrier present in the specimen but the decision to give additional doses must be determined clinically.
The incidence of adverse effects is not insignificant (approximately ≥ 5%), with complaints of jaundice, nausea,
mild to moderate increases in blood pressure, vomiting, oliguria, dysphagia and flatulence.
There are also reports of serious adverse events including myocardial infarction and death, however these risks
may be acceptable when allogeneic blood is either not available or effective or not acceptable to the patient.
Furthermore, haemoglobin solutions have a maximum recommended dose, reflecting the maximum dose studied
in clinical trials to-date, which may provide temporary oxygen-carrying support, or an “oxygen bridge” but may not
be sufficient to completely avoid red cell transfusions in patients experiencing massive or continued blood loss.
*highlighting is mine
**sorry about the formatting in the quote
Keep kicking at the darkness until it bleeds daylight.
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Last Edited By: birdwoman2 Dec 29 14 8:21 AM. Edited 2 times.
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Dec 29 14 8:12 AM
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And from the same article:
HBOC PRODUCT HISTORY
There have been a number of haemoglobin oxygen carriers in production over the last 30 years but PolyHeme is
probably the most controversial and Hemopure possibly the most promising.
PolyHeme is a haemoglobin based oxygen carrier derived from human hemoglobin and developed by Northfield
Laboratories, Inc. Northfield was predominately a research and development company; PolyHeme was their only
product. PolyHeme was the first blood substitute to reach a Phase III clinical trial in the US.
The trial was designed to assess the survival benefit of administering PolyHeme to severely injured trauma
patients in hemorrhagic shock, beginning in the pre-hospital setting and continuing for 12-hours post-injury in
hospital. It had two primary endpoints of superiority and non-inferiority to standard treatment. It was undertaken
between January 2004 and July 2006 at 29 Level I trauma centers across 19 states in the US under a Food and
Drug Administration (FDA) special category (21CFR 50.24) that allowed its use without consent. The waived informed
consent rule was established by the FDA in 1996 and stipulated that to be used “available treatments …. (must be)
unproven or unsatisfactory”. The only way to opt out from the study was by wearing a special bracelet prior to
needing emergency care. The study was highly criticised due to the absence of consent. Indeed continuation of
the study into the in-hospital period was considered unethical as blood was then both readily available and a proven
and satisfactory therapy for haemorrhagic shock.
The results were published in the Journal of the American College of Surgeons in January 2009.18 They concluded
there was no significant difference in outcome between the conventionally-resuscitated group and the PolyHemetreated
group. However PolyHeme was associated with an increased risk of myocardial infarction (3% versus 1%).
In May 2009 PolyHeme failed to receive FDA regulatory approval, with the FDA stating the risks of PolyHeme
outweighed the benefits. In June 2009 Northfield Laboratories Inc ceased operation and filed for bankruptcy.
Hemopure, or HBOC-201, is developed from highly purified bovine haemoglobin. It is a third generation product
developed by Biopure. It has been available for human use in South Africa since 2001 and in Russia since 2011.
There is also a “compassionate use” program in the US which makes Hemopure available when a life-threatening
situation exists and compatible red blood cell transfusion is either 1) not available 2) not effective or 3) not acceptable
to the patient. Approval by the FDA is made on a case-by-case basis.
Following a motor vehicle accident in October 2010, Australian Jehovah’s Witness Tamara Coakley received a
life sustaining transfusion of 10 units of Hemopure, flown in from the US and made available via this “compassionate
use” scheme. Permission to use the product was granted by The Alfred Hospital Ethics Committee and the
Therapeutic Goods Administration’s special access scheme. The manufacturer OPK Biotech paid for the costs
involved.
Hemopure has undergone a Phase III clinical trial evaluating its ability to reduce or eliminate perioperative
transfusion in orthopaedic patients.19 Hemopure reduced the need for packed cell transfusion in 59% of patients
but was associated with a significantly higher incidence of both adverse events (rate of adverse event/ patient 44%
higher, p<0.03) and serious adverse events (rate of serious adverse event/ patient 36% higher, p< 0.016).
In 2008 a controversial meta-analysis comparing 16 clinical trials involving 5 different HBOC products used on
over 3500 patients was published in the Journal of the American Medical Association.20 The study was led by
Charles Natanson, a scientist at the US National Institute of Health. It concluded that patients treated with a HBOC
had a 30% increased risk of death and 2.7-fold increased risk of myocardial infarction. Biopure responded by
claiming there were fundamental errors in the calculations and analysis. Biopure then sued Natanson, claiming he
had made “false and defamatory statements” about Hemopure. Following this South Africa’s Medicines Control
Council temporarily de-registered Hemopure’s approved use for the treatment of acute surgical anaemia.
A 2009 application to the FDA for clinical approval of Hemopure in the US was declined. In August 2009 Biopure
ceased operation and filed for bankruptcy.
Biopure has since been bought by OPK Biotech, a Russian owned company who has recently obtained approval
for Hemopure to be used in Russia. OPK Biotech has also bought the intellectual property of Northfield Laboratories
Inc, the company that developed PolyHeme. These acquisitions will likely make OPK Biotech a leading company
in the field of oxygen therapeutics.
The above information dates to 2011.
OPK Biotech is now based back in the USA.
OPK Biotech, LLC was incorporated in 2009 and is based in Delaware. On April 25, 2014, an involuntary petition for liquidation under Chapter 7 was filed against OPK Biotech, LLC in the U.S. Bankruptcy Court for the District of Massachusetts. On May 20, 2014, the involuntary petition was approved by the Court.
And, as is 'normal' in the volatile world of investments and biotechnology...OPK Biotech is now known as HbO2 Therapeutics:
August, 2014
HbO2 Therapeutics LLC has acquired the manufacturing and intellectual property assets of OPK Biotech LLC. The Company is headquartered 35 miles north of Philadelphia in Souderton, Pennsylvania.
*sorry...I don't seem to be able to fix the formatting...
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Blood, the FDA, the US Army, the US Navy, and the Watchtower Society
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status offlinesg75
#21 [-]
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Dec 29 14 12:45 PM
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Cacky, that's so sad and terrible. I hate seeing innocent children suffer from something that SHOULD have been preventable. Womanbeyondtime, I never understood the ban on leeches either. Its not like anyone was going to eat the leech after it had been used!
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I thought it was really crazy when they said you could not use leeches.
Womanbeyondtime, I never understood the ban on leeches either.
Huh?
Git outa here...when did that happen? Seriously?
I read Wbt's post but didn't pick up on that it was an actual ban from the WTS.
Do you have any sources for this? Or is it another one of those 'invisible' but talked about rules that are so often the fabric of the WTS' legal system?
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Ha. I found it.
http://www.caic.org.au/jws/medical/leeches.htm
The Watchtower had a question from readers that asked, WT June 15, 1982 p.31
Would it be wrong for a Christian, under medical treatment, to allow leeches to be applied to him to draw off blood?
The Watchtower say's to do
this would
..."conflict with what the Bible say's.."
par 1.
My question is where does it say that? Notice what the last paragraph say's
.."even where this was urged for medical reasons and the leeches would be disposed of, the use of leeches would involve deliberately feeding blood to these creatures. That would conflict with the Bible's indication that blood, being sacred and representing life should be disposed of if it's removed from the body."
status offlinecangie
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Dec 29 14 10:39 PM
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."even where this was urged for medical reasons and the leeches would be disposed of, the use of leeches would involve deliberately feeding blood to these creatures. That would conflict with the Bible's indication that blood, being sacred and representing life should be disposed of if it's removed from the body."
And I guess that if one searched the WT diligently enough, it would say that a person could be disfellowshipped for being the victim of an over-enthusiastic mosquito? Oh no smack head on desk
status offlinesg75
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Dec 30 14 9:11 AM
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Birdwoman, here's something else I just thought of in regard to leeches. The WTBTS thinks feeding blood to leeches via medical usage would be breaking God's law. BUT didn't God create leeches? God created leeches to feed on blood from other living creatures without caring that blood is 'sacred'. Mosquitos too. Maybe my logic is off, but it seems to me God broke his own rule.
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Birdwoman, here's something else I just thought of in regard to leeches. The WTBTS thinks feeding blood to leeches via medical usage would be breaking God's law. BUT didn't God create leeches? God created leeches to feed on blood from other living creatures without caring that blood is 'sacred'. Mosquitos too. Maybe my logic is off, but it seems to me God broke his own rule.
Well, sg75, if your logic is off...then so is mine.
I find the WTS 'logic' to be irrational, insane, and just downright stupid.
I realize this is somewhat 'off' from the original post...but...threads are supposed to be like that, I think.
The key word in the WTS directive about not using leeches for medical use is 'deliberate'. To take that rational further - then to be absolutely accurate, a JW who knows that leeches are in a particular river, and goes crawfish huntin' anyways, would deliberately be exposing themselves to feeding blood to leeches. Or, if a person went outside on a mosquito infested night without covering exposed skin or using repellent, they would be deliberately feeding blood to mosquitoes.
And...the directive 'to spill out blood' upon the ground, would mean that blood tests that store small amounts of a person's blood should be prohibited. Blood testing has never been prohibited by the WTS. Furthermore, when the WTS prohibited the JWs from using fertilizer that had blood in it - WTF? isn't putting blood meal on the ground a proper use of blood according to bibblical law? And...feeding blood to pets is only obeying the 'divine law' - animals' digestive tracts are different than humans' - they process blood differently than we do.
The inconsistencies abound. Accepting inconsistency is usually viewed as insanity.
The blood prohibition is absolutely false to begin with - the original intent was to prohibit the drinking/eating of blood, not blood transfusions. And, the prohibition against drinking/eating blood has medical significance. When a person digests blood, it is toxic - depending upon the amount taken in through the digestive tract, it can either make a person 'drunk' ('loopy' is how it was described to me by a medical doctor), or it can kill them. This doesn't happen when blood is transfused. The body reacts different to transfusing blood than it does to digesting blood.
The difference between transfusions and drinking/eating blood is night and day.
None of the WTs blood prohibition against transfusing blood makes sense. There is no bibblical basis for it.
The right to life, in the here and now, on this planet as it is, is fundamental to human existence. And the WTS has interfered with that basic right through ignorance and stupidity.
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Dec 30 14 9:26 PM
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Yes I thought it was insane about the leeches because of the entire fact that God made them maybe to be used for such purposes. Also as in many scriptural meanings it may be that they are totally missing the point. Generally blood is only spilled when a life is taken. It shows regard for life to recognize something about the animal's life but in this case of a possible life saving measure it is not necessary to take the life of a human to do it. It may in the past also have been used in false religious rituals. Also very important point I did bring up to some of the witness men (they weren't called elders then) that I wondered about the fact that I was drawing blood all day long and doing tests on it and I had never seen anything about that being prohibited or questioned or wrong. As in that we could not have blood tests. It became a weird feeling after awhile. They said it was eventually poured out on the ground. But that was not true. They really did not want to deal with that one, just that the society had not commented on it or ruled on it somehow. When I later asked about the blood fractions they said that the missionaries could not go overseas if they did not get their immunizations. so that justified it to them. Actually over the years I had quite a few questions about many topics that they did not know the answer to and actually they were obviously uncomfortable even being asked. As often it was written "do not go beyond the things written" and those mentally diseased over questionings". So it goes they always have that loophole to fall back on. I never realized till I was out how they viewed me as trouble. It really was so unfair as I always tried to be so supportive of them in every way and had genuine concerns.
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Dec 31 14 1:33 PM
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The whole blood issue was what led me to my first act of rebellion against the WBTS. Remember the No Blood cards? How every year we had to go to the Hall and get our new ones and have the elders sign? When I was sixteen, I'd already decided the whole stand on blood was wrong. I'd read enough books and articles on medical issues to know what I felt about it. That night I got my new card and went around like a good little girl getting it signed. Then I ripped it up and threw it away. When no one could see of course.; I wasn't brave enough to do it openly. A small thing I guess, but the first time I'd ever taken a stand for what I REALLY believed.
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For those that downloaded the document, it appears that the parts about JWs start around page 230 (someone correct me if I'm mistaken). I haven't read through the whole document, but I work in clinical research and I'm just stunned by what I've read so far. Informed consent is being so incredibly violated, I'm speechless right now. I always wondered why the blood doctrine was allowed to legally go on, now I know. It's for the military. Wow, this is horrible beyond words.
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For those that downloaded the document, it appears that the parts about JWs start around page 230 (someone correct me if I'm mistaken).
Varq, it has been a while since I read this document - I did a search in the pdf to find terms - Jehovah; Watchtower, are two good terms to start with. An important point that is revealed is that the Watchtower Society had representation at this meeting - they were in attendance. I think that FDA archives that date back to the beginning of the blood ban, and that are not online, could be quite revealing.
I haven't read through the whole document, but I work in clinical research and I'm just stunned by what I've read so far.
Good. So then you will understand this statement that I made earlier concerning this document:
The Watchtower Society is giving its politically neutral followers to the US military – instead of serving in uniform, the JWs get to serve their country in a different way – they can die as lab rats. And the reason the US Army and Navy want them for a control group? Well, Army medical personnel have to abide by the RESUS model – they have to resort to proven methods of resuscitation if the patient is on the verge of dying. In other words, if an Army doctor uses artificial blood on a patient, and they are dying, if real blood is available, they have to resort to using it. But, with a JW patient, they can continue to use the artificial blood until they die. Why this is important to the military is that it gives them a ‘base-line’ measurement – something that is impossible with any other group except the JWs.
The use of JW patients/subjects for medical research has a long history. I have posted previously about a study, conducted over 50 years ago, that used only JW patients to test non-blood volume expanders. The study was supported by the US Army. At that time, I was stunned - and it was then that the blood ban rationale fell in place and made some logical sense from a medical/scientific perspective.
The name of the study I am referring to:
Electrolyte Solution in Surgical Patients Refusing Transfusion
Seymour Gollub, PhD, MD; Robert Svigals, MD; Charles P. Bailey, MD; Teruo Hirose, MD; and Clara Schaefer
(from St. Barnabas Hospital, Bronx, NY)
Originally published in The Journal of American Medical Association, March 29, 1971, Vol. 215, no. 13
And the link to my discussion on the above study: http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/20029/Ripping-the-Veil?page=4#.VKVz1NLF_aI
Informed consent is being so incredibly violated, I'm speechless right now. I always wondered why the blood doctrine was allowed to legally go on, now I know. It's for the military. Wow, this is horrible beyond words.
Absolutely. Informed consent has been horribly violated.
And the research that has been done using JW subjects has been, not just for the military, but for pharmaceutical companies. Test subjects for clinical research has real financial value for those who supply those test subjects. And, once a clinical trial is approved - 'compassionate care' classification is what propels certain drugs and treatment into production and distribution. (eg.- Stanate for infants). The violations of ethical practice by the WTS towards the JW membership is criminal beyond words.
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 Jan 1 15 9:22 AM. Edited 1 times.
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When I was sixteen, I'd already decided the whole stand on blood was wrong. I'd read enough books and articles on medical issues to know what I felt about it. That night I got my new card and went around like a good little girl getting it signed. Then I ripped it up and threw it away. When no one could see of course.; I wasn't brave enough to do it openly. A small thing I guess, but the first time I'd ever taken a stand for what I REALLY believed.
Good for you. I would think that your position could be easily classified as a 'mature minor' stance. After all, the WTS uses that clause in court all the time. However, in practice, it doesn't always work out that way. I am glad you never had to face the test of being a minor at the mercy of the WTS men who make those decisions for minors.
When I was sixteen, I had decided, too, that the whole stand on blood was wrong, In fact, at sixteen, I had not attended a meeting in three years, and when I was 13, I had made it very plain to the elders sent to my house that I wanted nothing to do with them or their religion. And here is the kicker - I was never baptized.
At 16, I gave birth to my son and I had ZERO say in what happened to him when he required surgery at 6 days of age. The WTS men came in force to the hospital (my mother had registered me with the hospital as JW in spite of her being disfellowshipped for years and she signed the no blood document just like the WTS men told her to). Nobody asked me even once what I wanted for my baby, nobody from the hospital asked for court orders to force the required blood he would need, nothing like that. I was never once given the option to declare myself a mature minor capable of making medical decisions for my baby.
He almost died. But he didn't - even after two major surgeries using early bloodless technology with all the incumbent side effects of what those procedures caused. He was put through Hell.
Over 40 years later, my baby is still alive. And the only reason he is still alive is because his will to live was stronger than the Watchtower Society's willingness to let him die. That little wee tiny baby was stronger than that great big evil organization.
Keep kicking at the darkness until it bleeds daylight.
- Bruce Cockburn
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They really did not want to deal with that one, just that the society had not commented on it or ruled on it somehow. When I later asked about the blood fractions they said that the missionaries could not go overseas if they did not get their immunizations. so that justified it to them. Actually over the years I had quite a few questions about many topics that they did not know the answer to and actually they were obviously uncomfortable even being asked. As often it was written "do not go beyond the things written" and those mentally diseased over questionings". So it goes they always have that loophole to fall back on. I never realized till I was out how they viewed me as trouble. It really was so unfair as I always tried to be so supportive of them in every way and had genuine concerns.
WBT, you may be interested in reading this excellent article by a ex-JW health care worker who also questioned the elders about blood fractions.
Jehovah's Witnesses & The Rh Factor
In this article, Mercado's concerns are mainly about the use of Rhogam for Rh negative mothers. It is an excellent read and she raises many issues including the very real need for blood donors for this vulnerable group.
Keep kicking at the darkness until it bleeds daylight.
- Bruce Cockburn
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I posted a question on the theology section about where and why did blood sacrifices begin in history. I am not looking to hear the story of Cain and Abel. Even if the story in the Bible is accurate it leaes a huge question make showing that the full story is not there. Hope you can make a comment in that section
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Homeless desperation, forcing me in to dangerous jw waters
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Homeless desperation, forcing me in to dangerous jw waters
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Dec 2 14 3:21 PM
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Some of you may have read my posts earlier this year where I found out my jw dad was dying, so me and my boyfriend quit our travels, gave up our lives we had worked very hard to build carefully away from jw parents, and returned home to help nurse him and help with family business. A few months later dad died. Me and my boyfriend stayed on with my mother, mum had to do up and sell the house immediately to avoid bankruptcy and had so so so much STUFF to do and clear and sell, we all worked tirelessly and constantly. My boyfriend had a granny annex room in exchange for work, it was an uneasy relationship but desperate times and his vast amounts of self sacrifice made it work. I lived out in a caravan over summer as I never wanted to be considered living back in her house as had worked so hard to get away from that over the past 3 1/2 years. Eventually we sold. And achieved a huge amount of stuff. Mum has a cottage she needs to build and then she can move into it and settle down to a new little affordable life. I wanted to see her settled but the past 9 months have really taken their toll on me and my boyfriend so we decided to head off to Australia for the winter to find some live in work as we were going to have nowhere to live. For a variety of reasons (mostly my mum) we couldn't go this winter which has left us homeless. Mum managed to stay with a sister. I have had a couple of offers to stay with witnesses none of which i can take, because it is with witnesses but mainly because none would include my boyfriend and there's not a chance i would leave him to fend for himself and live indoors myself. He has a part time job or he could go home to his mums (where i am not welcome so also he doesn't want to leave me if we cant go together.) So we have a very basic converted van. It's ok. No heating so some tough nights! Now i would like to hang around since i cant get away, so i would like to see my mum settled, so there is still lots of work for me to be in the area for and for me to support mum and help ease her into life alone. This is my current question which i am sure you will all think is ridiculous for me to even consider it but complicated circumstances got me here and it has been impossible to think straight and this just landed on my lap. Now i am poor and homeless and need money and as self employed (who's business has failed mostly because helping family) get nothing from government so have no hope but getting a job. Whilst i was helping mum lots i went with her to a job occasionally to help earn her some extra money she was so desperate for to keep from bankruptcy. The job is fine however there are heaps of jw's working there. I kept helping occasionally and at the point of homeless desperation and needing a job instantly i was offered a few days a week there. it fell on my lap so i unthinkingly said yes. Now with me being essential to keeping mum going the past few months and keeping my head down and having drifted for a couple of years that people kinda vaguely know of, then people have so far kept their mouths shut on my not going to meetings and clearly having a worldly boyfriend. But if I now work with witnesses, spending so much time with them, that is going to wear off surely and people will start to ask questions (especially as he drops me off there so people see him). So all my hard work to get away and keep my mum could just blow up. Out of the country for a couple of years was my ideal but this has all kind of landed on me. I may be able to get a few weeks seasonal work but don't have time to apply, or internet or showers to look presentable. My man and I are now looking at working in exchange for accommodation and it is looking hopeful but i still need money coming in to be able to get away as soon as mum is settled. I have another option of possibly having a live in paying job nearby, but it is tough job. Part of me says its vaguely ok working for accommodation and then money in for easy job alongside jws. but am i just getting complacent about risk. I don't know what to do.
Last Edited By: janeblogs Dec 2 14 4:01 PM. Edited 1 time.
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Jane I think we all get into a pickle at sometime in our lives and you indicate you are planning to avoid being permanently in your difficult situation ... that's good! Have a vision and take steps towards fulfilling it.
The next thing that comes to mind is regarding JWs. I suggest that you never should feel judged by them. Hold your head high and do your own thing even if you have to work alongside them. It is them, not you, who must learn to be tolerant of differences and you have the advantage of knowing that they are to be pitied because their lives are curbed and prescribed and managed and messed up by the WT governing body.
I can’t supply an immediate answer for making money to live on apart from the thought of doing some training in an area of work you find enjoyable to get a diploma or the like to be more easily employed? Are you in the UK like me? (You say mum not mom!)
Nevertheless, I hope your situation improves and the time will come when you can leave behind the stupidity of the Watchtower organisation. And keep posting...
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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"But if I now work with witnesses, spending so much time with them, that is going to wear off surely and people will start to ask questions."
Yes...they will, Jane. You know how they are. But I have learned that it is a very "JW-induced" reaction to automatically assume we HAVE to answer them. We were taught from a scripture that "we should always be prepared to give an answer to anyone who questions us about our faith" (or something close to that), and I know it has taken me all my life to realize that I don't have to answer ANY nosy questions, from anyone, that I don't choose to. A very polite response might be: "Thanks for your concern, but I don't think it is appropriate to use the employers time to discuss my personal life." If they suggest talking to you outside of the job...again politely thank them for their concern and assure them that if you feel a need to discuss it, you will get in touch with them. You are an adult, you have a right to your privacy, and you have a temporary goal...to make money and get out of there! It might be uncomfortable for a little while...but you won't be stuck there forever. Good luck with your plans, and I hope you can move on with the rest of your life very soon. smiley: happy
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I'm sorry you're having such problems. I can't think of any other advice from what has been given. I am thinking of you and really hope things get worked out for you.
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You may be homeless just now, but your situation is a long, long way from hopeless. Meanwhile, a few suggestions for survival living: one of you get a job where one is fed as paid like Restaurants, nursing homes, etc. Volunteer at homeless shelters where they can provide parking, meals, housing, showers, and laundry facilities. Many churches offer groceries clothing, etc. for the indigent, the Salvation Army, even in our little county gives $$ for utilities a few times every year for those long in houses but barely making it. While none of these things may answer your problem right now, they may be useful. Being independently employed (house cleaning, window washing, pressure washing sidewalks and walls) cost little to start up, and can be advertised by putting cards up on nearby shops' notice boards). Whatever you do, I wish you well. Grandma Cee Cee
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Sorry to read of your plight Jane. Grandma Cee Cee's advice is brilliant and more apt than what I could offer as I am from Australia and our welfare system is set up differently to yours. I hope you are able to find a solution soon ... if you haven't already.
If you are still thinking of heading to Australia for work ... check out the Australian Government's immigration website first. That way you will read first hand if you and your man will be allowed to legally work and live in our country ...... we have some fairly stringent rules here, which if breached can result in immediate deportation and a three year exclusion from being allowed back in.
Let us know how you're going if you can .....
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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A wall goes up...
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offlinecursednurse
A wall goes up...
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Dec 2 14 8:41 PM
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It's been quite a while since I've come here but I have recently been experiencing something that I wonder if anyone here has also had happen. I would greatly appreciate feedback on this.
Just by way of a quick recap about my journey out of the organization, I was born and raised a jdumb with a single, mentally unstable mother in poverty, violence, abuse, and hypocrisy. I married a true believer at 21 only to live another 14 years in a loveless and verbally abuse relationship. After slowly fading away, albeit unconsciously aware that that was what I was doing, over a 5 years period, I divorced said true believer and left the only life I'd ever known. I basically shunned them all before they could shun me by walking away on my own terms. I have since been "out" about 12 years. I DA's myself about 9 years ago via a letter telling the organization to kiss my ass, in more civilized terms.
While I have not been tormented by doubt, or remorse, or fear about possibly making a mistake in leaving, I also have not felt that I needed to join another organized religion. I had moments of true belief on-and-off when I was younger and still active. I had many family members in the same congregation that I attended so I had to behave, as it were. Inwardly, I struggled with how deeply I really embraced the teachings I had been raised with. I secretly rebelled by having worldly friends, exchanging Christmas gifts, and wishing happy birthday to people I genuinely liked. I also had the capacity to reason things out. I think it was my need to analyze and think things through that ultimately saved me.
As a witness, I remember a mental wall that would come up as soon as someone confronted me with beliefs or ideas that I was trained to be opposed to, even if I was just overhearing conversations around me when I was out and about in life. It was automatic. All those years of brainwashing worked very well. Even though that mental block went up on its own, I never felt I was prepared to defend what I believed. I could walk-the-walk but I couldn't talk-the-talk, and most of the time I kept my mouth shut. I never talked about what I believed unless directly asked and even then I wasn't always forthcoming.
I spent a lot of time when I first left the organization thinking about what I believed, what I no longer believed, and if I felt I needed to believe something else. What I ultimately realized was that I did not feel compelled to believe in anything. After all, Christianity in most forms all share the same foundation of belief as the witnesses. God, Jesus, holy spirit, angles, demons, heaven, punishment for sinning, a resurrection hope, praying through Jesus' name, blah blah blah. The phrasing is particular to each christian religion but they all share the same foundation. So, I came to the conclusion that if the jw's is a cult, which I have also researched and realized, and I can't believe anything they stand for, AND other Christian religions, in general, share the same system of beliefs, then I can't believe in them either.
So, what I have found is that now I still have a mental wall that goes up whenever I hear or see anything religion based, christian or otherwise. I cringe when driving passed a church, or see people walking to the church on the corner, or even hear religious based conversation. I live in LDS country so trying to get away from talk of church is impossible. Just as when I was a jdumb, I keep my mouth shut regarding my own private feelings regarding religion. Only at this point in life it's because I feel I could lose my job. I am constantly uncomfortable with the mormon chit chat that surrounds me. I internally groan at the way "heavenly father" has blessed devotees with this or that. It is very distressing.
Have others here had the same experience? I can't seem to do the "live and let live" thing. I don't know if I will ever be able to get there. How do others deal with this? Thanks.
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I'm self employed and have a certain amount of control over what chit chat I am confronted with but I do hear what you're saying. I also have been out about 3 years longer than you and I do think I am feeling more relaxed around those faith based sorts of people than I was even 3 years ago...life is always evolving! Still, i definitly have that wall that goes up sometimes with something as stupid as a bumpersticker on a car. I guess I just try to laugh it off and think of all the logical rebuttals I can think of to stifle the irritation...it really is rather like a bad mosquito bite.
It's good to see you back cursednurse! I always enjoyed your comments. Don't stay away so long no, OK?
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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Hello there and welcome back CN smiley: smile
I could walk-the-walk but I couldn't talk-the-talk, and most of the time I kept my mouth shut. I never talked about what I believed unless directly asked and even then I wasn't always forthcoming.
Yep, that was me to a tee!! The fact that I was a pioneer made it even more pathetic!! Just a thought ...........I wonder if a lot of our reticence has to do with wanting desperately to be 'liked'...
I know the whole jw childhood experience, and always feeling 'different', definitely caused me to be a 'people-pleaser'............I still carry that trait even after all these years smiley: frown
So it makes sense (imo) that trying to please everyone, and being upfront (and maybe thereby risking confrontation) just don't sit well together......so maybe I say less than I should at times, in order to keep the peace............
I also had the mental 'wall' for so many years with regards to anything 'religious'..........it still tries to 'erect itself' even now lol!! But as soon as I feel it rising unbidden I purposely try to address it, and remind myself that it is the conditioning, rather than rational thought...
But I feel as you do...........at least so far as organised religion goes.........let anyone choose what to believe, but please don't try and tell me that anyone needs a 'guide' or 'mediator' to do so smiley: sick
Sam x
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Hi Cursed nurse, I fully sympathise with your situation, I’m sure we’ve all been through it. The old WT boundaries stopped us going past invisible barriers...for a JW there are walls and traps everywhere you go...Satan is out to get you!
Thank goodness it’s all in the past but we were so programmed that we stopped thinking for ourselves and ran on Watchtower brand autopilot, bridling at any possible infringement of religious scruple. Damn it! How we hate the Watchtower for misleading us... and it takes years to get the stuff out of your hair..............but it does eventually go.
I’ve just been on hols in the Mediterranean for three weeks with a small group of friends including an Anglican priest...we get on famously. People, apart from mad cultists and Bible literalists, are usually well intended and think that religion is both a mark of being civilised and that it represents a desire for good in their communities. How about seeing their good intentions rather than being over-sensitive about the doctrines? (It’s all baloney after all and most of them know it!)
However, I completely agree with you that the reasons that JWs are wrong, applies also to other religions. The Bible is not divine, Jesus was simply the last literary incarnation of a fabled saviour of mankind and his death cannot buy back the perfect life that Adam lost since Adam never lived and never had a perfect life and all these characters are fictions. It’s a good story nevertheless and millions drink it in.............. but it’s just a story.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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Hi everyone.
Thanks so much for your comments. I appreciate the words of wisdom. I suppose I do take other people's beliefs too personally. I have to remember that other people's beliefs are just that, their beliefs. If it makes someone else happy, or comforts them, or even guides them in a positive direction, I can't really judge them. I don't have to agree with them. I can see them as people rather than just the church they attend.
"I didn't cause it, I can't cure it, and I can't control it." That's a quote from Narcotics Anonymous and it's one that my mother used as her personal mantra when dealing with my brother and his crazy life. I guess that can be applied in my own situation when I'm confronted with other people's belief systems. I probably shouldn't even use the word "confronted" as no one ever comes at me with Bible in hand and righteous indignation in their eyes. I'm happy for that. And many of the people I work with who are religiously inclined are relatively decent. I have to start reminding myself, too, that these are the people I secretly liked and made friends with when I was a jw. Forbidden fruit and all that.
Again, thank you for your feedback and advice. I have a good start for some serious self-talk when I feel that wall going up. I guess the first step should be to imagine that wall in a different light. I should imagine it as a chain link fence full of holes and a little flimsy. Eventually it will just be a sheer curtain.
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Hi Sweetie..missy nurse. I'm getting ready to go to bed with hubby but I will come back later. Love LinBeating heartHello
I tend to take what my fence-rider says too personally. I'm still working on myself and know that being what she is can often trigger my anger towards the Borg that has separated our family. And yet she won't acknowledge that's it the religion that helped fuel the flames.
I've given up saying anything to her about this site and the wonderful people because she continues believing we're all [ hateful apostates ]and she's tired of the hate. Take a look at your precious god [Jehovah] is what I sometimes want to say but it's not worth my time and energy so I try staying away from her.
Don't think she'll ever join us...but that is her choice.
Although I want remembering we all have a right for making choices - it's how that religion has destroyed so many lives and then we're left for picking up the pieces of a broken heart; just too be further condemned.
I think to know that my sister is a very lonely person that won't let go of her belief in Jehovah and therefore is miserable most of the time. Instead of being angry with her perhaps I need finding more patience with someone that suffers from mental illness. And yet, I do not appreciate how those that struggle for leaving the religion are judged so harshly! It's not always a good situation and I'll not always keep my mouth shut.
Last Edited By: Linda Dec 5 14 4:57 AM. Edited 2 times.
status offlineCacky
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I haven't had the problem you described.
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Hi, Cursednurse smiley: wink Hope things are better for you.
Told you I'd be back...
This has been the week from hell dealing with my sister. We've spent yet more money bailing her out of financial problems. I've spoken with her one daughter, the bank, and an instructor for her taking an online class. I've also cried, been stressed, talked with her landlord and want making sure is is not hungry.
For some of our members, they seem getting over stuff faster - and yet they have a sense of obligation for helping others. We are all here for helping in the recovery process, knowing it's not easy.
I always want remind people to keep coming back because there is nothing anyone can say that will shock us nor will we do the shunning.
Sometimes I wonder how Ronnie and the Mods help keep this site alive...They have been there and continue helping us help each other.
I'll be looking forward to you posting again. Love, John and LinBow down before youBalloonsback to topic
status onlineAndriaSyxx
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Hello Nursie my sweet ... lovely to see you again!
I have no idea how I missed this .......... so all I'll add is 'yes'!
No just kidding ... I can't stop at a simple yes now can I? Haha!
I have been where you are ....... only difference now is that I'm rather vocal about religion. Like super vocal when the mood takes me. I'm quite happy to label myself an atheist and to say 'I don't believe in religion at all ... I'm an atheist' ... just to see the reaction I get. It's quite odd as someone who knows me from my past will say 'but I always thought you were really religious ...' to which I will fire back 'my PARENTS were the religious ones not me ... I wasn't ever given a choice'.
I did have a look at other religions for a while ... probably because I thought it would counteract what I'd been indoctrinated to believe. In the long term ... I have found that religion just isn't my cup of tea. I don't feel the need to believe in something ... be it considered the truth or not. All religions say they have the one true religion and they can't all be right! Right?
If I'm questioned by a religious person with the usual 'oh well if you don't believe in god ... how do you think the world came into being?' ...... which I usually don't bother going into any more detailed an answer than 'does it really matter? We are here ... can't we just get on with it?'. It's not that I haven't got an answer ... more than I know I'm wasting my breath with some religious people and I really do have far more interesting things to get on with! Don't get me wrong though ... I really do enjoy a good religious discussion and I'm very vocal when it comes to all things anti-jdub. I'm not against the people ... they've all been as cruelly duped into believing they have 'the truth' ...... but the religious hierarchy knows better and choose to treat their followers like dumb idiots.
If it's any help ...... Gav and I are both diehard atheists. We find religion to be rather amusing and yet simultaneously very damaging ... to some. Not all. We have raised our boys knowing that some people need or want religion ... some people don't need or want it ... and others have yet to make up their mind. We have also raised them to have good manners, to be thoughtful, kind, loving and to do what's right. We've done this without making them fear some invisible sky daddy who watches over them 24/7 ...... we want them to behave and do what's right without that kind of fear hovering over their little heads ..... or not so little heads now they are both teenagers.
Not having religion doesn't mean you're a bad person. Not wanting to listen to the religious prattling of religious people doesn't mean you're rude or inconsiderate ... it just means you've had enough shoved down your throat in your lifetime and you'd rather talk about the weather!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Missy Rhonda. Last night I was ready to have John check me in into a psycho ward because I'm so sick of religion smiley: mad. I'm tired of playing by their rules of conduct when it is now taking things away from us where we cannot afford a much needed vacation.
When speaking with a lady from my support system- having been admitted to the psycho ward; she assured me that was the last thing I needed doing, so I'm just back to setting boundaries with those that would suck the joy out of my life.
Rhonda, you may not stop at a "yes" but we sure miss you and others when it's time to take a break.
With all this Muslim stuff going on - and it's insane IMO, I'm dealing with the Jehovah thing and now the Mormon. I'm sick of religion!
I read Scripture most days and it's very confusing how anyone can love any god.
I'm very proud of my surrogate grandson that is a member of his local Fire Department. Although he is LD, he has shown to be a kind person that will be there for helping others.
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Growing up in crazy town, with a true believer, made me a warrior.
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offlinecursednurse
Growing up in crazy town, with a true believer, made me a warrior.
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I was raised by a jw single mother. I have only recently come to realize that my mother was and always has been a true believer, despite her erratic behavior as I was growing up. I have an older brother who was sexually abusive to me and my older sister when we were kids. I have a hard time believing that my mother was unaware as she was a nurse from the time I was just a baby until she retired early at the age of 62 due to health issues. I gave off the usual symptoms of an abused child such as red and swollen genitals, inappropriate sexual behavior, and mature language regarding sex for a 4 year old. My brother plied the usual guilt trips about how it was our secret and how unhappy it would make our mother to find out. I have one distinct memory at the age of 4 of my brother telling me to keep watch at our bedroom door. I peeked around the corner and watched my mother ironing clothes in the living room. As my brother talked my sister into participating in some sexual situation, I felt my heart sink. I saw how sad my mother looked as she tiredly moved the iron back and forth across the top of one of her white work uniforms. I was torn. I wanted to cry out to her to come look at what was happening but I was afraid of what she would do if she saw and knew what we were up to. So, none of us kids broke the silence. As time passed, my brother left me and my sister alone in search of more exciting entertainment. At 11 he began his life of drugs and crime. And thus began my mother's slow decent into her own form of madness in her all consuming need to save my brother.
We were poor. As a CNA, (Certified Nurses Aid) my mother was at the bottom rung of the health care system of nursing. She made less then minimum wage as she cleaned bed pans, showered patients, cleaned up puke and other body fluids, and made beds in the hospital. There were many weeks we went without food. We lived in government housing. I have to say that we did always have a roof over our heads despite lacking in any real luxuries. It was well known in our congregation that we were in a bad situation most of the time. Whenever there was a post-Sunday meeting get-together, we never missed. It may have been the only time we ate during the week. The other fact that was well known in our close circuit of associations was that my brother was a constant thorn in my mother's side. Oh how she bemoaned the loss of her only son and her struggles to bring him back to jehovah. She really played that up. What no one knew of was the abuse that took place most nights in her manic refusal to let him go. We suffered many a sleepless night wondering when he would stop tearing our humble home apart. He was fond of ripping our phone out of the wall, breaking lamps over the back of our second hand couch, kicking in doors, and punching holes in walls. My sister and I often witnessed physical fights between our mother and brother. I can't count how many brooms had to be replaced due to them being broken over the back of my mother or brother. My mother thought that there was something still worth saving in my brother. She was going to pound the sin out of him no matter what it took.
Many nights my sister and I were left alone in our crime ridden neighborhood as our mother went in search of our brother who had many friends that lied as to his location. I shared a bedroom wall with my mother and often heard her cry late at night. It became the white noise that lulled my to sleep. This might seem like the normal behavior of a concerned parent for their child but keep in mind that she had two other children, two daughters. We had suffered horribly at the hands, and dick, of the child she mourned and chased after. Emotionally, my sister and I suffered at her hands as well. She often made us compete for her affection. We had to prove which of us loved her more. Most time my sister won that one. I was illegitimate while she had been married to my sister's father. Never mind the fact that my sister's father had gone to prison for rape. That is another story. Anyway, while my mother made arrangements for me and my sister to be taken to the meetings regularly and taken out in field service while she had to work, she was flying off to Los Angeles on the weekend with a male co-worker in order to get a car. Or she dated another co-worker to get a microwave. We had to maintain our spirituality while she "earned" us some prizes. I grew up hearing about all the men she used in order to get something from them. For instance, she was proud of the fact that she had screwed over her best friend who liked a boy in their congregation as a teenager just so she could take ride in the boy's car. The car had leather seats and she wanted to know how that felt. That may just sound like typical teenager crap but she continued this behavior throughout her life to get what she wanted all the while warning me and my sister to not do those kinds of things. As it turned out, my sister ended up doing the same types of things.
My mother often withheld affection and physical contact from me. She would say "I love you" but I had a hard time believing it. I always felt it was just something she was supposed to say to me because she said it more often to my sister. It was a big act at the kingdom hall where she only displayed affection in front of other witnesses. I drank it up even though it was just for show. Lack of human contact from one's own parent can be devastating and it was. On top of the lack of emotional well being I felt, I was constantly told how stupid and ugly I was by both my mother and sister. And, yet, we went to weekly meetings, read the bible nightly as a family, went out in service, and studied all the publications as commanded from the podium.
What has convinced me in time that my mother was and always has been a true believer despite all the insanity she put me and my sister through is the fact that she is still in it and is convinced that there is something wrong with me because I walked away. I'm the one with the problem. I am the one who has made a mistake by turning my back on the society, the family, on her, and on jehovah. In truth, I shunned them all before they could shun me. That is what has made me the person I am today. My sister is a true believer as well. The main thing that made the difference between the choices we have made in life is that I never ran away from what I had to face in life. I have always been one to see what was happening in life and accept it. My sister never has been able to do that. And for that I feel very sad for her. We were never aloud to be sisters. We were forced to compete for the affections of a woman who was incapable of returning all the while she praised and feared god. I am the one who got away and I am the one who is living in a world of honesty and truth. A truth that allows me to love a good man, to laugh with real joy, and to be at peace with myself without judgement or guilt. I am a survivor.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Hi, Cursednurse, If I've been remiss for not inviting you here or heck, sometimes I forget smiley: ohwell Hello.
Indeed it was growing up around craziness and hypocrites. It wasn't always easy for my single mom raising 5 children. Most of us left home at an early age. Although my mom would be DF twice, she would die as a member in good standing.
Whenever I acted out, I'd be taken before the elders! I have two sisters that are die-hard JW's and then there's "Fence-rider" that really likes playing mind games with me - although she doesn't shun. We can often get into a silly argument because she wants the last word in any conversation and wants it to be about Jehovah/ Armaggdon and/or how rotten this world is! That all I need doing is going to the elders and ask forgiveness smiley: laugh - when pigs fly! I've been df for over 40 years and that insanity has only gotten worse.
Yes, we can find happiness! We learn personal boundaries for no longer allowing others to not only abuse us in the physical and/or sexual - I've learned the painful way that religion can and is often abusive. And it most certainly is alive and well with the "Society." I hate when fence-rider uses that term. Of course she won't believe anything I can share with her re: our research. I'm learning it's best to avoid the issue with her and she doesn't want my opinion she should keep her opinions to herself.
Ah, the journey can be very interesting.
Hope you enjoyed your holidays. Ours was quite but there's something to be said for quite times.
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You certainly are a survivor. I'm glad you have found happiness and peace. You had a rough way to go.
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Nursie my love ... you have had to deal with far too many things of an adult nature when you were just a little lady. Your bro is a disgusting pig and I don't blame you one bit if you no longer see or speak to him .... good for you. What he did to you was criminal. If your mother didn't know what was going on ... she lived in fairyland. If she did know and did nothing about it ... she's equally responsible for what you have had to deal with.
I am glad you are a warrior and that you are not about to let your childhood hold you back from being strong. It takes great courage and strength to get off that abusive family and domestic violence rollercoaster ........ and you've have done that with gusto. Talking about it is a massive step forward and also a way to help others realise that they're not the only ones in the same boat!
I don't believe that your mum is a true believer. Like my dad ... I believe that your mum is someone who SAYS they are a true believer ... because they have been indoctrinated to believe they have 'the truth' for so long now ... it's become a habit! It is a highly constrictive lifestyle with dangerously extreme levels of control via emotional blackmail ... fear ... guilt ... recrimination ............... it's why your brother plied his awful trade so easily, as you were raised to fear. I still remember the teenage jdub who threatened he would 'get' my sister and that Jehovah would punish me if I said anything to anyone about what he did to me. That was only short term ... nowhere near as damaging as what you have had to deal with .... but that fear was very real and scared the crap out of me. I kept my mouth shut for decades not just days or weeks. Now? Not on your Nelly.
It is great to have you back in here!!!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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It's the same old story with fence-rider
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offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
It's the same old story with fence-rider
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I'm sickened to my stomach dealing with someone that continues to hate.
I've done much for what others have suggested...and you all do help me stay focused.
It became another game for my sister to show how much hate she is full of - meantime, her God is Jehovah.
And so, despite what has taken place this week...I'm having a good day.
My sister hates..I'm learning how others love.
She would not come and get "free" food that was donated to us for sharing...
The other evening when she told me "I have to move". She only moves because that's her choice because she is not happy living where she is.
Believe me, this is a vent letter.
I'm extremely sad thinking that my sister [fence-rider] is so unhappy.
I've also learned that there is nothing we can do for helping her because she will always be unhappy.
Each day I offer a prayer...not being a Bible believer, I do use Scripture for research, and I sickened knowing my sister still continues believing in the JW ...and she continues using others.
Thanks for letting me vent. Today will be a fun day ...
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She hates I think because her God Jehovah hates. Look at all the terrible things done in the OT, lead by Jah. Vent all you need to. That's one thing we're here for.
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Thank you Cacky for responding.
Each moment makes a difference.smiley: grin
I've written so much in the past concerning this issue [ I'm actually tired of listening it myself]
I'm going to have a happy day celebrating life with those that do likewise. As in we are loving.
The more I read the Bible - even for research- the more I'm convinced it's a book of hate.
I will never accept Jehovah as my God!
Thank goodness we have other members that do the research they do and share with us.
Love, Lin and John because he knows ya'll help mesmiley: grin
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Hi Lin ..... your sister like so many other jdubs ... loves misery for company. She is probably quite jealous of the fact that you and John lead a normal, ordinary, every day life ...... and that's why she carries on like a pork chop so much!
The bible is a book written by a whole bunch of men .... interpreted and re-interpreted time and time again. Your sister relies on the fact that she has 'the truth' ...... and will overlook that so many hundreds of other religions claim the exact same thing! The reason why the WBTS stands out so much from other religions ... is because they go out of their way TO stand out. Let's give god a name so that no-one else can use it ... bang ... up comes Jehovah. No-one will use that name now for fear of being labelled 'one of those Jehovah people'. Want to stand out more ... let's give up Christmas ... bang ....... they're the weird ones who don't do Christmas. They forget to tell their own followers that they DID celebrate Christmas and if the issue is raised ... it's down to the old 'imperfect men' excuse.
Your sister is indoctrinated ... miserable ... and too scared to live OR die. Aren't you bloody glad to be out of that! What you could do with her the next time she starts waffling ... is just say 'let's agree to disagree ....' and then see if she wants a cuppa!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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It's sad when I wanted going to the psycho ward because I have allowed her to take controlargh
So, now I'm taking back my control- yes I canPlaying cards and I'm doing my best for staying away from her.
We've done everything possible for helping her...and now it's up to me to tell her, "we're finished."
I'm not going to destroy my marriage over her...because John is in between us; trying to keep peace.
So, if John finds peace with his religion and Lorna and I continue doing what we do...it's now mine to tell her she had best stay away from me because I'm staying away from her.
Thanks for your support. Love, Lin and John
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Going to See a Psychiatrist
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offlinepalmel1234
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I'm 38 years old now and I have been struggling to deal with issues from my childhood for a long time.
So for those of you that don't know my backstory - born and raised JW, disfellowshiped at 18.
There were about 16 congregations in the town we lived in and my family was the "Kennedys"
of the JW community. Everyone knew our family, we were the "popular" family in JW circles.
Anyway, my mother abused me a lot when I was a kid. She'd beat me for small infractions,
like forgetting to do the dishes, or walking down the wrong side of the street.
She was very cold, uncaring. She never hugged or told me or my siblings she loved us.
While my dad was not abusive, he turned a blind eye to what my mother did. I'm still trying to come to terms with that.
One time I could not find a hair brush, and my mother grabbed it off the table and hit me in the head with it.
I was always walking on eggshells, always in a state of aniexty and fear. I was conditioned to never speak up, if I did I was smacked down.
One time I told my dad I didn't want to go to meetings anymore, and he very calmly and very deliberately, hit me very hard in the face several times.
I moved out when I was 18 and started drinking every chance I got. I wound up in some trouble with the law and ordered to attend AA.
While in AA I received some couseling and it was the first time I realized that I had been abused as a child. I got therapy, thought I was better, moved on with my life.
So let me get to the point of this post. Lately I've noticed that I have a hard time standing up for myself.
Sometimes, when I'm confronted with a slightly stressful situation several things might happen:
Usually, my mind goes blank, I can't think of anything to say, it's like mental paralysis.
IF I can think of something to say, I'm either too intimated and afraid to say it, or I worry about hurting the other person's feelings.
And if I do manage to muster the courage to respond, I feel guilty, uncomfortable, or stupid afterwards.
This has become a serious problem because it's gotten to the point where I need to
stand up for myself or my children and I can't.
One example - I was signing my daughter Karen up for soccer at the local recreation center.
While we were registering, another lady that worked at the rec center came up behind the counter and said
"What a pretty girl" to Karen. Karen just kind of looked at the lady. I said
Karen, can you say thank you?
Before Karen could respond, the lady said "Yes, you need to say thank you."
and before I realized it, she reached over and tapped Karen on her forehead! smiley: eek
She didn't do it very hard, but still! WTF?
And what happened to me? Instead of me telling the lady off, a wave of cold washed over me, and I froze. I couldn't speak.
Many times, before my mother would beat me, she would make me stand in front of her while she berated me about the offense I was in trouble for.
I knew it didn't matter what I said to her, as soon as she yelled my name, I knew I was getting a beating, but I still desepartely tried to think of something to say.
My attention would stray to look at her hand and watch as it would ball up into a fist . . . then release . . . ball up . . . then release.
Hot blood pounded in my head, as I tried to prolong it as long as I could.
That was exactly how I felt when I saw that lady tap Karen's head.
And then, when I finally did find my tongue, I started defending the lady! smiley: embarassed I told Karen she should have said thank you! smiley: embarassed
Ugh, I feel horribly guilty about it. I tried to explain to Karen. I told her I was sorry I didn't tell the lady that she shouldn't have hit her,
but I froze up. She was fine, she said it's okay mommy, but I DID say thank you, she must not have heard me.
So that was the last straw. I work at a very good hospital that has an excellent psychiatry department. I contacted them and
was referred to see a psychiatrist in the Crime Victims Center.
Although it says "crime victims" they help people that have been through any kind of trauma,
rape, abuse, car accident, etc. My appointment is next Tuesday.
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Last Edited By: palmel1234 Jan 10 15 2:36 PM. Edited 2 times.
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I understand how you feel about the situation with that lady. Therapy would be good for you. I used to be like that, too. I seem to have grown out of it. I used to always think the other person was right.
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((Mel))
I think thats a great idea!! Lots of us, with our backgrounds, seem to have had problems with speaking out when necessary.........even though I didn't suffer physical abuse as a child, it was drilled into me to always be subservient, and that is not a healthy way to be!!
My mantra was to 'keep the peace at any cost'........but of course that doesn't work in the long run, cos you just become 'used' or bullied by others who think you don't have any views to respect...... I have managed to overcome these traits somewhat, but now I find that I usually keep quiet for too long, and then explode with a totally inappropriate level of retaliation.........which can be as bad as not saying anything!! smiley: ohwell
I'd love to hear how it goes Mel.....and what advice they give!!
Hugs
Sam x
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
Last Edited By: solitaire Jan 10 15 10:19 AM. Edited 1 times.
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Thanks Cathy,
Yep, Sam, like you say being raised as a JW, we all to one degree or another were trained to not speak up, and not to question.
And I do feel that I get bullied by others quite a bit.
And holding it in until you burst isn't good either!
I want to speak up for myself in a healthy, assertive way, but the biggest hurdle is my own mind.
I hope they do have some good advice, I will post after my appointment.
I think whatever advice they give would be helpful for others as well, even if you weren't abused as a child.
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It's a bad case of 'turning the other cheek' Mel. It would have happened to all of us in here at least once ... if not loads of times over the years.
I used to have the same issue myself and ended up in a relationship that was physically, mentally, emotionally, sexually and financially abusive. The whole kit and kaboodle I guess you could say. It was Gav who pointed out to me one day very early on that he could see how the other man got away with treating me like that ... and that he could do it too and I wouldn't know it. I was far too trusting. Far too indoctrinated to go with the flow and not upset people. And far too willing to say sorry ... even for things that were not my fault.
It took me until I was 30 before I started to stand up for myself. The whole 'sorry' thing took a few years longer but Gav was highly instrumental in breaking me of that habit and helped me to be kind to myself. The result is that we have encouraged our boys never to apologise unless they really mean it and only if they are at fault for something. I have noticed that when someone has apologised to them for something they haven't done ... they will tell the person there was no need to apologise, explain why and then tell them 'it's okay ... you can't be sorry for everything you know'.
I am like a seething tiger if anyone upsets my Gav ... my Conor or my Carson. I may not flip out but I certainly let the offender know what I think in that very cool, calm and eerily patient kind of way. Conor (our eldest) thinks that approach is far worse than just lashing out in anger. He tells his friends at school that when I stand up for my family or friends ... 'she's bloody scary'!
In fairness to Karen ... she is only young and doesn't know that some adults crave attention by way of thanking them. The woman gave Karen a compliment and it should have just been left. She made an issue out of it and she most certainly should not have laid a finger on any part of Karen ...... warning tap or not! Had that been me ... I'd have ripped her a new asshole simply by saying very quietly .... 'how DARE you touch my child ... in some countries that would be considered assault!' As an adult ... she should not have been expecting a 'thank you' from a child. Children don't think like we do ... it's why we remind them of their manners when they're out and about ...... she should have known that. Silly cow. How dare she upset OUR Mel and OUR Karen!
I am at the stage in life where someone says something I don't particularly like or agree with .... and instead of nodding inanely and going along with it, I will be very politely and firmly disagree and add my reasons why. It doesn't always go down well with people because so many of us raised with or without religion ... have been told it's rude to openly disagree. Or that we have to respect our elders.
I don't have any answers or recommendations ... other than to say if you haven't done anything ... don't apologise. If you don't want to go somewhere or do something ... just say 'no thanks'. If someone picks on you or your kids ... let them know how you feel about that and ask them to stop. If they don't stop and won't listen ... walk away. They can't fight with you if you're back is turned. They can't use emotional blackmail faces on you if you can't see their faces.
I have also learned that you don't need to explain yourself to others if you don't feel like it. A simple 'no thanks' should be more than enough. The trick I learned was to be prepared for people ..... you can learn to tell when they're on the prowl for something or if they're in the mood for a fight.
When it comes to standing up for yourself ... it's harder to negotiate because you are not the type of person to willingly or knowingly hurt or upset someone else Mel ...... which is why it's quite shocking and upsetting when someone does it to you or to your kids. I am icily polite to those I do not like ... and have no qualms in shutting someone down if they step over the line. My favourite lines are ......
* If I don't allow my own mother to tell me what to do ... what makes you think I will let you get away with it? (will now have to add 'when she was alive' in there)
* Is that how you normally speak to an adult? (you can use this one for adults AND kids!)
* Thank you ... but no. (this reply drives my boys nuts ... I also use it on anyone silly enough to ask me to do something I don't want to do)
* I've been done over by the best ... you really are wasting your time if you're trying to upset me
* Do NOT speak to my child like that ........ (this needs to be said very loudly and firmly ... but now shouting
Of course ... your psychiatrist may come up with far less confrontational ways of standing firm my sweet. Don't beat yourself up over what that woman did .... just make sure you let both your girls know that no-one ... as in NO-ONE has the right to touch them unless they want to be touched and that it's okay to say no ... or no thanks.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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(((Mel))) I hope you get some helpful therapy. In my area psychiatrists mainly prescribe prescription medication and psychologists, APRNs and MSWs do various types of therapy, so I'm a bit confused that you are seeing a psychiatrist.
I'd like to share an article I wrote a while back when I was volunteering for AAWA. I hope it helps!
http://aawa.co/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/AAWA-Recovery-Self-Care-Tips.pdf
Hugs,
SailAway
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Sail - Thanks for posting that information. I was actually able to print it out for me to refer back to because I'll be in recovery all my life.
Missy Mel, My beloved Palm - Life hasn't been easy for any of us. I'm very proud of what you have accomplished woohoo
One of my joys in life is when shopping, seeing those precious babies...I must remember to not touch a child unless I have the parents permission.
Just the other day, when watching this adorable girl, I remembered to ask the parent if I could touch her because she was so cute with her little pony-tail.
First, I always discuss with the parent...but our children are so precious and that's all we've ever looked out for.
With John doing volunteer work with the Boy Scouts - I'll be damned if anyone ever accuses him of child molestation! This USA, although the JW will protect the pedophile, everyone is a suspect! It's time for making changes within the church that is so guilty while always pointing their finger at some one else.
So, my love Bubble bath although you are smart enough for knowing how it works with any type doctor, take care and use the common sense you have.
Give your family our love because we do understand it's a struggle. Love, Lin and John
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How dare she upset OUR Mel and OUR Karen!
Aw, thanks Rhonda, I needed that!
* If I don't allow my own mother to tell me what to do ... what makes you think
I will let you get away with it? (will now have to add 'when she was alive' in
there)
* Is that how you normally speak to an adult? (you can use this one
for adults AND kids!)
* Thank you ... but no. (this reply drives my boys nuts
... I also use it on anyone silly enough to ask me to do something I don't want
to do)
* I've been done over by the best ... you really are wasting your time
if you're trying to upset me
* Do NOT speak to my child like that ........
(this needs to be said very loudly and firmly ... but now shouting
Only problem with these answers is - you have to have the courage to say them! I’ve come up with some good responses myself, but the problem is, many times in the moment I am too afraid to say them. I remember once my family was going through the drive through of a fast food place. The girl at the window was someone that went to my school. The next day at school she told me that me and my sister looked like we were scared. smiley: frown I didn't even realize we looked like that, sitting the back seat of the car.
And sometimes it’s not even when people are being rude to me. For example, this past Sunday I was getting groceries at the grocery store. I noticed that the casher was bagging my groceries rather heavy. I don’t like the casher to put a lot of groceries in one bag, it’s hard for me to carry them from the car to the house when I get home. I wanted to ask her not to put so many groceries in one bag, but I couldn’t say the words. And she wasn’t even being mean or anything but I was too scared to say anything! smiley: frown
Sailaway, I'm not sure what APRN and MSW stand for, I just know with this program normally you do meet with a therapist, and if you need medication they have a psychiatrist on staff to prescribe it for you. But because of the way my insurance works, they had to assign me directly to a psychiatrist.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/179443/working_mom.html
Last Edited By: palmel1234 Jan 12 15 6:43 AM. Edited 1 times.
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Hi Mel,
An APRN is an Advanced Practice Registered Nurse who does counseling and medication management. A MSW is a social worker with a master's degree who does counseling, no medication management. I'm glad to hear you are seeing both a counselor and a psychiatrist. It's always a good idea to rule out any pre-existing medical conditions together with therapy.
Hopefully you will connect with your practitioners. Don't be discouraged if that's not the case. Sometimes it takes a but of shopping around to find a good fit. Don't be afraid to educate your therapist about TTATT. I have played a recording of a GB member (Anthony Morris III, if I remember right) for my therapist and our marriage counselor. They were both flabbergasted at the venom and rhetoric.
Hugs,
SailAway
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Thanks for the love Linda, I appreciate it!
Sailaway, I just finished reading the article you wrote, it was very helpful.
I especially liked your point not to remain isolated by staying on online forums,
but to develop "real world" relationships.
I signed up for the Daily Now Moments email -
hopefully it will help remind me to stay in the "now" and not in the past!
http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/179443/working_mom.html
Last Edited By: palmel1234 Jan 13 15 5:30 AM. Edited 1 times.
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An APRN is an Advanced Practice Registered Nurse who does counseling and medication management. A MSW is a social worker with a master's degree who does counseling, no medication management.
Ah, I see. Yes, normally the program assigns you to a social worker, but I just "lucked" out and got the psychiatrist
because of the way my insurance works. And no, I won't be afraid to tell them about TTATT.
I'm looking forward to my visit tomorrow.
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Just got back from my appointment,
Sailaway, I was wrong, it was a psychologist I saw! Doh! smiley: grin
Anyway, had a good first meeting, covered A LOT.
I briefly got into the JW thing, she said she's learned a little bit about JW through another client she had,
but had a few things wrong. We just covered that stuff briefly, heck, they gave me paperwork that took
almost an hour to fill out.
But we hit it off, she's four years younger than me and gorgeous, so she can relate to not being taken seriously
and being treated as just a pretty face. And I totally get her sense of humor. I can tell we're going to get along fine.
I am so glad she said we are going to do more than just "talk", but actually do some exercises.
And that is what I need. I know being abused is not my fault, but now,
dealing with the physical reactions is the problem.
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I can tell we're going to get along fine.
Well thats the first hurdle out of the way Mel! It is SO important to have a connection with a therapist of any sort.........I will be so interested to follow your sessions!! xx
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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Hi Sweetie - Our good thoughts go out to you and the family. PalsThrow heart kisses
Love, John and Lin
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Mel, it sounds like you are on the right track! Sometimes our sense of humor is the only thing that can get us through. I'm glad you have that connection!
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Good on you for taking steps you feel are right for you. Best wishes.
'Do a barrel roll!' - Peppy Hare, Lylat Wars - N64
'Andross wont have his way with me!' - Fox McCloud, Lylat Wars - N64
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If this is not the forum for discussing this issue...I'm sure one of the mods will make the change...
We all do what is necessary for finding recovery. The other night my husband was taken to the ER. We are getting older and shit happens! I'm having to change our will for my son...Today was spent making telephone calls to another physician.
I'm listening to music and trying my best for de-stressing.
Bless heart heart, "Fence - Rider" came over for helping me get some cleaning done and we had a good visit. Believe me, we didn't discuss religion!
After all the discussion with different doctors and the hospital - we are going to get medical records because it's time to change. So, that you have found someone that is willing to listen and help you...go for it!
I'm so bad for not remembering everyone's name...but still - we do send each other good thoughts and support for doing what they need doingG'day
Thank goodness ya'll are loving because I get lost...especially when talking about the ABC's of this or that. Hey, I'm just grateful that someone is getting an education.
I'm so damn old..didn't we once call a spade or spade...had nothing to do with race and through the years it's become how we interrupt words when it's for how we must learn to speak the new language.
I'm probably off base again for understanding this conversation and someone will set me straight...
Last Edited By: Linda 6 days ago. Edited 3 times.
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offlineinventor
Meet a friend, but
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We both have a passon for music. And we are going to start a sludge metal band. Thing is he used to be a gang member, and while he's turned his life around after being locked up, I still worry. I don't want to be dragged into this stuff, and I don't want anything to happen to him. We have so much in common. I just hope this doesn't get ruined, or I get ruined. I'll have to be careful.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Hi, Inventor. Good seeing you continue posting.
Well, I'm one that enjoys watching forenic and murder shows so I'd imagine my brain is not so well balanced because when it comes to making friends, I rarely trust anyone.
Just because you have certain things in common...Yes, I'd say do be careful.
Example: My former husband - although he was an AA member in good standing; he would show to be a child molester.
My one JW sister and her elder husband; when their daughter was molested from another member, they would never follow through - they just moved, again.
It's sad when we cannot make friends because we never know whom to trust.
I'm saying, be careful but do enjoy the adventure for meeting that someone special that will prove being a friend.
We must remember that the JW doesn't like anyone and they want us staying in fear because that's how they live their life...Fear.
Be careful, live your life and continue posting because you help me.
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Just watch yourself. I'm glad to hear you have made a friend. Just be ready to bale out if things get weird, but hopefully they won't. I hope it goes well for you!
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Thanks everyone. Im really insecure with the band thing, I don't know if iI have what it takes as a guitar player. I make mistakes when I play. I have a lot of anxiety with the whole thing. What if they kick me out of the band for not playing well?
So in a werid way I'm hoping this doesn't work out.
I do plan on posting, I like this community, but I got a job at a movie theater so I was really busy, but the holidays are over so I have more time.
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Hi inventor
If you meet your friend in the framework of music it can be a good thing...as long as music is the focus and not getting high or otherwise wasted. If you feel like there's tension or negative energy with the group or gang people start showing up, bale. Did he leave the gang with enemies? Do be careful
I'm not familiar with the type of metal music you were refering to but I've noticed bands often play around one favorite key. If you can swing some lessons, do. Then, Learn a couple of riffs and don't worry about mistakes...same mistake done twice was meant to be!
Nice seeing you here again 😊
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
Last Edited By: whytebyrd2 Jan 13 15 9:30 AM. Edited 1 times.
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Yep, Sharon (Whytebyrd) is right. Don't worry if you make a mistake, most of the time folks can't even tell!
People do turn their lives around, just be careful with the gang related thing.
And have fun!
http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/179443/working_mom.html
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Not everything we wrote is posted as we type, so I'm confused as to how it turned into "gang related" when some one was talking about music?
As for the music, I'd agree that you continue putting one foot in front of the other and try not fretting about what others think. Is this your passion?
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I'm confused as to how it turned into "gang related" when some one was talking
about music?
LOL, Linda. Inventor met someone that USED to be a gang member. They are starting a band together.
Inventor is concerned that folks from his buddy's past might cause problems.
He's also worried about his ability to play.
My advice is to take things one day at a time and don't worry if you make a mistake, most of the time
folks can't even tell! smiley: happy Have fun with it!
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status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Mel - Yes, it was right there and I didn't actually read what was written. Could be it's time for me to take time out and get my brain in order.
We don't want seeing any of our youth involved with gang activity.
Thanks for bringing this to my attention just as Sharon has had to tell me I take things too seriously.
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Added: How it so different from former gangs and they have concern because they want to move their life forward in the positive. How is that so different from us recovering from religious abuse and we have issues that might haunt us our life? and we talk about it all the time?
Once again I misunderstood but this person has concern because he needs being careful because it's about the music and it'might become gang related...and that's the fear.
So, how do we give support to our youth that we want encourage them to pursue their dreams?
How many of us help do community work with former gang members?
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Because my husband and I are involved with the community - we encourage you to go forward but the first time you think something is happening you don't want being involved with, walk away and contact the local
authorities.
I know I'm being so serious at the moment..
I just spoke with our local police department because we always have to pass an FBI background check because we are a safe home. That's all we wish for any of our children. Have a safe home and follow your dreams.
Maybe one day we'll buy one of your CD music.
Last Edited By: Linda 6 days ago. Edited 1 times.
status offlineBilly Sugger
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not fretting about what others think
Fantastic comment for a guitar player.
Inventor, just go with it, your playing will improve when you play alongside others. I too have just co formed a band, a five piece blues/rock band, I play the bass in this but can play guitar as well.....could hardly play a note 8 years ago, still not up to pro standard, but we have fun, we get people dancing and that is the aim...
Oh, and just say no to drugs.
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
status offlineinventor
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Thanks everyone for your support. It means a lot :)
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You are very welcome. We are here for you.
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Cacky beat me to the line - We are here for you. Please remember to come back and share with those that share with you.
rock onRockstar. Love from all of us that caremaybe
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Inventor .... do what my boys do ... play AIR guitar!!!
Check this song out from Aussie comedy trio Tripod .... it's awesome
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineJourney
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Inventor, I have no idea what you should do or not do. Only you can decide. But I can tell you that when I have doubts and anxiety and thing that I almost don't want to do it, I listen to my gut. If you feel that bad, don't jump into it. Think it over carefully and listen to your gut feelings. Gangs are nothing to mess with. On the other hand, you may be helping him find his way into a better life. But you are not his savior or his parent or his therapist.
Listen carefully to your intuition, your gut may be trying to tell you something.
I was invited to do something last year. I don't want to say what. It sounded idea, wonderful. I trusted the other people involved. It seemed so right and good and had been something I'd wanted to do. And here the opportunity was laid in my lap. We were seriously talking about doing it, but every time I started thinking seriously about it, I would get anxiety and start fussing in my mind. Something just didn't feel like it'd work out right.
And you know what? It would not have. It would have gone south pretty soon. And it was my intuition that was telling me something.
So listen. If you feel very negative, listen to it.
Good to come here and talk about it, to maybe help with perspective. Only you can decide what you should do. Listen and calmly think.
Take care, Janet
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Habits - I get it
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offlineKBG
Habits - I get it
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Tove Lo - Habits
You're gone and I gotta stay
High all the time
To keep you off my mind
Spend my days locked in a haze
Trying to forget you babe
I fall back down
Gotta stay high all my life
To forget I'm missing you
status offlinesolitaire
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Aw Kevin.....that is so sad.............are you feeling sad now??
I'm sending you a hug Hug xxx
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status onlinecangie
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Kev....? Is everything o.k.? We're here if you need us...................Group hug
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Darn it, it makes me sad at times hearing how others struggle, but I know it's all the process.
Perhaps some of those words are from a song? that caught your interest just as music always helps me sort through personal issues.
Stay strong and know we are here for helping in our own way.rock on
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I know you are missing your daughter, KGB. My thoughts are with you. ((HUGS))
status offlineKBG
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When I was a teen, I would hear love songs and think, this is over the top, this is an exaggeration. No one is that enthralled with another person. It took until I was 32 to understand AND ACKNOWLEDGE that it was possible with the right circumstances. I guess the same is true of heartbreak songs.
The tone and chorus of this song just hit me, I'm sure they wouldn't if I heard it 2 years ago. They make me depressed so I want to change the station when it comes on, but they also validate me so I usually don't.
It is sad not having her Xmas stocking hanging in its place on the stairs.
I'll be OK, well sort of OK. Y'all know the deal.
status offlineCacky
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I know. I'm sorry.
status offlineSailAway
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Kevin, I'm so sorry you are missing your daughter. Cry with tissue
Take Care of Yourself
status offlinepalmel1234
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Hey Kevie, I've heard that song on the radio a few times now.
I'm kind of surprised they let a song talking about drugs get air time,
but I'm glad they did. It hit me too, but not like it did for you.
I think the song does a good job of describing what a desperate person
might do to cope with the pain a person feels when they miss someone.
Hope today is a better day for you.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/179443/working_mom.html
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((Kevin))
this time of year is always hard for loved ones who are separated, whether by live or death............it seems that everywhere we look the media are bombarding us with 'perfect families'
Of course there are no such families....and for many it can make it even harder than in the usual day to day living.....so just know that you are SO not alone in your feelings of frustration and sadness....unfortunately there is a lot of 'what-if's' being felt by so many on sites such as these...I hope it at least eases your pain to know that you are not alone, and that others truly care
Hugs
Sam xx
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Sam - Guess it's about helping others that are suffering from loss of family; more so this time of year. We all do and it's great when others share their stories.
I liked what you wrote about how no family is 'perfect' and we're all doing the best we can. At the same time, when dealing with family that would shame us for trying to find freedom from their hate...it's back to square one because we don't believe as they think we should.
And so, this is the time for finding peace from them that hate holidaysargh
Off topic: Fence rider is still, "fence-rider" although she wants celebrate with our community while she continues going to the KH and thinks she should quiz me on my beliefs. It's interesting how they continue their speech about Jehovah and the Organization...and after all, they have all the answers.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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I know to have written about my niece dying a few months ago.
We all lose loved ones in death. I'm thinking as a parent that gave up custody of a child for finding recovery and didn't want to play the legal game...we are now some of those that would fight for each other.
I'd guess to say - it's the journey and I do understand how difficult it is not having you children around. Sometimes, IMO, it's time out for doing what you need doing and our children do come back to us.
Do I think anyone posting was like myself? NO!
My husband never did drugs in any fashion nor did he smoke...He spent 22 years in the military for helping support your right to express your opinion.
I'm so very sorry that we all deal with on occasion what it is to deal with life.
status onlineAndriaSyxx
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Kevvie ..... she has a LOT of your genes in her genetic makeup ......... she'll come banging on your door one day. How could she not remember that awesome smile of yours? Or the lightness of your dancing feet?
Keep all of those unopened gifts ... the cards ... the words ... and one day she will have a chance to read them. THEN she will know just how much of your heart holds has been holding her close.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineKBG
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Thank you Cacky, Cangie, Sam, Diane, Mel, and Rhonda for your supportive thoughts.
Mel, when I hear the verses of the song, that is not me. But the chorus and the lonely/hollow feeling of the song I do relate to. I'm not an addict of any kind, lucky for me, but I can see how this level of loss could push someone toward it.
Linda, I can tell by your words you also experience a loss that haunts you.
Not an easy holiday, I have learned from it though. I used to think that people who were sad at the holidays wanted to live in the past. I have a newer perspective. For people with a good past, or at least enough good in their past, and a good present, the holidays are a time to reconnect, re-link their past to their present.
For people with a major breach in their past, being forced to re-link the now to the past is painful. It happens when you are asked innocent questions "So how is your daughter doing in college?" Or by being told stories: "I saw your daughter and she said she doesn't want to see someone who is always putting down her beliefs." Which has a spin and connotation totally different from my own perspective on the past, both distant and recent. I was pretty miserable up to 2 days ago being with my happy in-laws. Not implying that it was their fault.
Was finally able to get back to the gym and workout, which thru some chemical miracle, always helps me let go of my problems, for a while.
I really do appreciate all your loving support,
Kev
Last Edited By: KBG Dec 31 14 12:25 PM. Edited 1 times.
status offlinecancan
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I don't know your story KBG but I'm so sorry =( I'm assuming she is shunning you? Stay strong and be loving. I shunned my Aunt for 15 years, from age ten to 25 when I finally started questioning things. I called her up, met for a drink and she just opened her arms and heart to me - knowing I only shunned her because I was blinded and fooled and manipulated. She loved me the entire time and it was such a great healing for her and myself. Hopefully one day your daughter will see these things and come back to you - and when she does, you can show her those gifts and letters and love. =)
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My JW family baptising their babies
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offlineFence Setter
My JW family baptising their babies
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I just saw on Instagram that my little nephew was Baptized at the last JW Convention. He's 7 or 8!!! He was shorter than the hand rail going up to the baptism pool. I actually got sick to my stomach thinking how this cult will hold this contract, he entered into at such a young age, against him the rest of his life. They have locked him in. JW's slander Cathlics for infant baptism, but they do this to children that are just old enough to rememer but not old enough to fully understand. This is what JW's did to my husband too and the pain it has caused is soon deep it may never heal. A child wants to please mommy and daddy because they want their love and to see a smile from their parent makes them feel loved. So ofcourse they will get baptised. It would be fine at any age if there wasn't a life long contract with an organization that came along with it that will destroy your life if you ever want out of it. smiley: frown
Last Edited By: Fence Setter Nov 24 14 9:01 AM. Edited 1 time.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Hi, Fence-Sitter. Good to see you continue posting.
So now the JW's are baptizing at that young age? Hell, I thought it was bad in my generation with being pressured as a teenager and now they are going after even those younger?smiley: mad
Sounds much like the Mormon with how they say at age 8 - that's the age of accountability! Who the hell made up that rule?smiley: mad
I do understand all to well; the rules are made up from idiot control freaks that others will follow because they believe most anything told them from those running the show. And what a show it is! It shows the world how controlling and unforgiving they are and years later when anyone wakes up to how insane the religion is - well, we know how that plays out.
The JW's are hypocrites in the extreme because they have bad-mouthed every other religion for years and now it easy to witness how they are doing the same.
Is it really any wonder why people hate that religionsmiley: frown
status offlineCacky
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I've known of one as young as nine get baptized. It's terrible.
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Wow! I think the youngest I've seen was maybe 11 or 12. In my generation (I'm 36) it was mostly teens getting pressured to get baptized. If you were still "just" a publisher at 16, you needed extra help because the goal was the get you in while in middle school or early high school. If you made it to 18, you were almost doomed! I made it to 17 before I got baptized. I was ashamed because I was already out of high school and unbaptized so I did it at the circuit assembly that summer.
status offlineKBG
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That is a record. So young, what was the example Jesus set? When did he get baptiz.... Never mind, he was a bad example.
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Aw that is so sad smiley: ohwell
Another poor kid doomed to a life of guilt..............whether they stay or leave, it still exerts its influence!! Sounds like they are trying to get them dunked even younger......that smacks of sheer desperation on the part of the org.............smiley: sick
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Many years ago I remember a CO telling us of a little girl who became an unbaptised publisher at 4, yes, 4(!)because she was able to answer the questions and was baptised at 5. It is wrong
to baptise anyone under the age of at least 21. This is going to cause so much heartache in the future.
If you don't live on the edge you take up too much room
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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If I might step in and say how close I came to being baptized Mormon because of hubby.
I will never be baptized again in any religion because they all have an agenda that I'll not follow.
Dear Jesus, and you know my belief in you is up for grabs - did you really put such expectations on our youth? Really? Perhaps we need getting rid of all religions. I'll help with that one toonuts
status offlinewomanbeyondtime
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I did hear of one case of that before. It is certainly not scriptural. I think they used the example of Samuel. Oh the twists and turns. Poor child. Just a miniature "stepped out of the Watchtower". Hey is it ok if people are allowed to be children and grow up in a natural fashion? Evidently not. Today we don't dedicate children they are supposed to dedicate themselves. Duh! failure on the thinking end. Any parent who allows that for their kid should have a psychological exam. the story does not in any way convey the tragedy unfolding. I like follow ups at 1, 3, 5 , 10 and 20 years plus. Let him speak for himself. AS I said before, there was pressure to baptize my daughter when she was 12, The elder said she wanted to be baptized and I said she also wanted to be a mermaid. Probably one of those things that got me marked for their suspicious minds.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Good Morningsmiley: wink
We know that the Borg doesn't want anyone being truly happy. I like what you said about your daughter also wanted to be a mermaidsmiley: happy. My youngest grandchild has different goals for her life and in the end, it will be her decision.
Thankfully, she is given that opportunity because her parents are not religious zealots that want brainwashing that precious child into believing as they would have her believe in any god, let alone this so called, "True God, Jehovah."
I'm very thankful that my son and his wife allow their children to make their own decisions when it comes to spiritual matters - and guess what? They are loving, kind and sharing children! They have compassion and aren't judging everyone according to some church.
Darn it...I'm really missing seeing them but we do talk on the phone so that's a good thingsmiley: smile
status offlineFence Setter
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Geowyn wrote:
Many years ago I remember a CO telling us of a little girl who became an unbaptised publisher at 4, yes, 4(!)because she was able to answer the questions and was baptised at 5. It is wrong
to baptise anyone under the age of at least 21. This is going to cause so much heartache in the future.
-------
That is crazy!! And I agree but, with the controlling restrictions and the life changing dedication I think, with JW's, it should follow Jesus's example and not be until 30. I am not the same person I was at 21, although I thought I was mature I was infact ignorant. I still am but have a little more sense at 45. There should be a law suit for what they have done to children baptized so young. My husband was 11 or 12 and it has ruined his life. He fights everyday to just be normal and get past the pain and judgements. I was 20 and people ask what was I thinking. I was love bombed and believed I was doing the right thing. I didn't actually understand the punishment I would recieve if I ever decided to leave and I was 20!! Most other religions don't have this life changing punishment if you choose to dedicate your life to God /Jesus. Ofcourse now JW's dedicate it to the Borg. smiley: sick JW.ORG
My nephew's dad is and Elder ofcourse. They say it was his "Choice", bull shit! It's like this family is competing to see who's kids get Baptized the youngest. If they aren't by 12 something must be wrong. SO, so, so sad. It breaks my heart.
You can't win you can stay brainwashed and always feel like you aren't good enough and wonder why you feel like shit inside, then blame it on yourself because you aren't a strong enough JW. You can feel guilty then turn it into hate because you think deep down x-mas lights are pretty. Isolate yourself from everyone that is not a JW. Turn away and loss you life with any family that are not JW's. Enforce the blood stance and put yourself or child at risk of dieing or actually dieing for the ORG. Or option 2... Wake Up and feel the pain of your family and friends turning against you, shun you, and speaking about you as if you are a demon.
Last Edited By: Fence Setter Nov 30 14 5:18 PM. Edited 1 times.
status offlinewomanbeyondtime
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Just sticking to the simple facts that they claim to follow Biblical principles. It is wrong. It is not a dedication to the temple like Samuel. ( we don't dedicate people today they dedicate themselves. It is not a baptism like John's. It is a dedication of one's self to doing all that is right but it was done, by example, by Jesus who was supposed to set the pace. He was 30. Considered an age of maturity in his day. This pushing of children into baptism does not ensure their salvation or that they will, when they are mature, serve God. It does show that some people seem to think it reflects on their ability as parents or even a competitive spirit that has no place in this area or for that fact any place in spirituality. It seems also to have taken on a congregation number thing. Yes we have new baptized members they can say when the C.O comes around and that they can add to their worldwide numbers. If they really cared about the children they would develop workbooks and programs and meetings that were geared just for their age, instead of forcing them to sit through hours of boring meetings that they cannot understand and forcing older ones to go over the same things again and again.
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That is so terribly sad Fencie ......... not uncommon but sad.
Of course the dad will say 'it's his choice' ... they always say that! As for baptising a five year old ... good gracious me! She's not old enough to decide what she wants for breakfast or which Barbie she wants ... never mind giving up her life to her parents god! It's all about having the most spiritual child I think .... and as Woman pointed out too, bums on seats.
The saddest thing of all is that both children have already been set up to fail. If they do anything at all considered a 'wrong doing' ...... they will already be swamped with the indoctrinated guilt and fear .... and then add more for good measure. There's something to be said for raising children in an atheist household like our boys are being raised!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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I don't want to emotionally seperate from my husband
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offlinenonjwspouse
I don't want to emotionally seperate from my husband
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Nov 21 14 10:01 AM
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I fought it for a year now. A therapist told me I needed to do this early this year. I needed to stop being a part of his self employed businesses ( the bookwork etc). I need to separate my life from his and concentrate on me and my daughter.
He is s brick wall, still. He suffers from depression that I now wonder how much he self inflicts. It is a cycle of staying in bed for a week or so at a time. Income is suffering, he refuses to take responsibility for priority things such as billing customers so I play musical bills/musical banks, trying to keep the accounts from over drafting and late bills. I actually took on more responsibilities in the businesses, and as I was afreid of, he didn't use that to improve on his responsibilities. He is just as bad if not worse. he gets defensive if I bring up important things that are causing massive money loss in the businesses, tells me to stop lecturing then says I am doing no good because he already knows that. It's like he feels he has no control over it, but he could if he would just prioritize, and let go of control. I attempt to address these things, it usually turns out bad, then I stay quiet for weeks or months. Wash rinse repeat. smiley: mad
This entire school year he has been completely absent from all of our daughters school work/homework/reviewing papers. Nada. Nothing. He continues to "check out" of the household/family and it scare me and upset me, then he blows up if want to talk about it. He is turning into a horder type personality. Throws trash wherever he is. Buys in bulk or repeatedly buys when he won't look to see if he has it on a shelf, and thinks it's ok to "store" things on the floor. I get upset about it, he apologizes, but he just repeats later.
He hasn't been to meetings that I know of or any studies for about two years ( the study partner moved away) . But it is always always an imminent possibility that keeps me on edge. He refuses to discuss, which makes it worse. The only thing he has said, a long while back, is he will go back eventually and he will get baptized.
Today is a bad day, and I came back here to just get this out. It doesn't help I have been sick all week. His answer to my business questions were today " I dont know" "I don't know what to say" "I haven't thought about it". I blew this time. I threatened to walk away from all the business dealings office work etc early this year. I told him today it was going to be up to him if I continue working with him. Things must change, or I am out of the business side of things. ( Which will cause a massive disaster. I already know this which is why I have been so hesitant)
Sorry for the rant. Those who read it. I just didn't know where to turn today and needed to get it out. Thanks for reading.
I miss you all here. You have been such a good support system for me in the past. Thank you.
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Hey Nonnie its good to see you about the place......although maybe not for the reasons you are here ........
Sounds like things haven't improved at all on the personal front, and I totally understand that you don't want to 'cut your nose off to spite your face' business-wise...............but it sounds like you can't go on this way, and things will eventually come to a head anyway, so maybe you will have to face this head-on!
Maybe because he knows that you will always take up the reins when he goes awol emotionally, he hasn't been forced to face up to things that need his attention, he is quite willing to let you shoulder the strains, and then berate you for 'lecturing' him ..........
Sounds like you need to listen to the therapist..............cos this is not only damaging for you, but it is not having the desired effect on his behaviour and attitude!! You are not a one-woman army, there to shore him up..........I know he suffers from depression, but being allowed to wallow, whilst at the same time taking you down with him is not going to work!!
As you said, you try to force him to talk, and when that doesn't work you put your head down and carry on until you come to another time when you can't face it.............the cycle has to stop......and if a change is not going to come from him (which seems unlikely) then it looks like you are going to have to be the one to start the wheels in motion.........
I'm so sorry that you are still dealing with this crap....especially when you have the whole 'I'm going back someday' hanging in the air.........but the religion aside, you need a partner who will take their share of lifes difficulties, and support you emotionally.........or you will be ill yourself!!
I'm so glad that you at least came in to tell us how you are feeling.........and I'm sure you will get lots of feedback.............so hang on in there Nonnie smiley: smile
Sending you a big HUG
Sam xx
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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Hi Nonnie, I can't think of anything else to say. Sam said it pretty well. I just wanted to let you know that I hear you and am thinking of you. I hope you find some solutions for this situation.
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(((Nonnie))), you sound like you've been pushed beyond your limits and understandably so. First I'd like to say I understand the trepidation around walking away from a business that is a major source of income, if not the only source of income, for the family. I came to that place after 25 years of building a business together with Mr. SailAway. We have very different management styles-- his is way more hands off and willing to wait and let the chips fall where they may. I like to make a decision, make a plan and set a course. Often Mr. SailAway seems incapable of making a decision. Additionally, my job was business administration, financial management and human resources and his was sales, managing the techs in the field, writing software and consulting with clients, but he repeatedly pulled rank and undermined my authority. I don't think we could have stayed married if things had continued that way. Sometimes business and marriage just don't work. I resigned to save my sanity and sense of self worth.
I, too, have been advised by a therapist to separate emotionally from my husband in the past. I found it impossible to do living in the same house. This kind of distress has to be making you physically ill. I've been there as well. Your daughter has to see what is going on, and it can't be good for her either. Perhaps you need some time away to rest and gain some perspective. You must be physically and emotionally rung out.
I have to say that one behavior you mentioned jumped out at me. Your husband is stonewalling you. This reminded me of an article I read recently. Maybe you'll see some of the other behaviors mentioned below. Contemplating a divorce is scary business. After 42 years in a cult and getting out at age 52, I put up with a lot less crap from my husband these days. Life is simply too short.
SailAway
John Gottman’s FOUR HORSEMEN OF THE APOCALYPSE
John Gottman, Ph.D., is a well-respected psychologist and marriage researcher who reports that
an unhappy marriage can increase your chances of becoming ill by 35% and take four years off
your life! He believes “working on your marriage every day will do more for your health and
longevity than working out at a health club". Although many of us believe that anger is the root
cause of unhappy relationships, Gottman notes that it is not conflict itself that is the problem, but
how we handle it. Venting anger constructively can actually do wonders to clear the air and get a
relationship back in balance. However, conflict does become a problem when it is characterized
by the presence of what Gottman calls the “Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse”: criticism,
contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling.
1. Criticism. Criticism involves attacking your partner’s personality or character, rather than
focusing on the specific behavior that bothers you. It is healthy to air disagreements, but not to
attack your spouse’s personality or character in the process. This is the difference between saying,
“I’m upset that you didn’t take out the trash” and saying, “I can’t believe you didn’t take out the
trash. You’re just so irresponsible.” In general, women are more likely to pull this horseman into
conflict.
2. Contempt. Contempt is one step up from criticism and involves tearing down or being insulting
toward your partner. Contempt is an open sign of disrespect. Examples of contempt include:
putting down your spouse, rolling your eyes or sneering, or tearing down the other person with
so-called “humor.”
3. Defensiveness. Adopting a defensive stance in the middle of conflict may be a natural response,
but does not help the relationship. When a person is defensive, he or she often experiences a
great deal of tension and has difficulty tuning into what is being said. Denying responsibility,
making excuses, or meeting one complaint with another are all examples of defensiveness.
4. Stonewalling. People who stonewall simply refuse to respond. Occasional stonewalling can be
healthy, but as a typical way of interacting, stonewalling during conflict can be destructive to the
marriage. When you stonewall on a regular basis, you are pulling yourself out of the marriage,
rather than working out your problems. Men tend to engage in stonewalling much more often
than women do.
All couples will engage in these types of behaviors at some point in their marriage, but when the
four horsemen take permanent residence, the relationship has a high likelihood of failing. In fact,
Gottman’s research reveals that the chronic presence of these four factors in a relationship can be
used to predict, with over 80% accuracy, which couples will eventually divorce. When attempts to
repair the damage done by these horsemen are met with repeated rejection, Gottman says there
is over a 90% chance the relationship will end in divorce. If your relationship is filled with these
four issues, take notice, change yourself, work together, make improvements. Don't delay! As
Gottman has made clear, with work and an investment in overcoming these challenges marriage
can improve and become successful. If left unattended divorce is often inevitable.
Excerpted from an article, “Marriage and Healthy” by Poonam Sharma, Ph.D.; further information and research can be
found in Dr. John Gottman’s book, “The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work”.
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Nov 22 14 8:21 PM
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Good points all.
Sorry about the troubles--yours and his. It's got to be scary.
Wish I had all the answers. Will a hug help?
Grandma Cee Cee
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I need some support -thank you
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offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
I need some support -thank you
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I'm crying because it seems no matter how I try being different from my other JW' siblings - I'm going to be the bad one. [Scapegoat]
It's no secret that I enjoy my vodka...but when asking for help from 'fence-rider' on a specific item dealing with food that would help her too - all hell broke out because she isn't going to live like that because she smelled my breath and literally put her fist in my face!
She should actually be grateful I didn't punch her to the ground...telling me how certain words are "Trigger" words for her? What's with that! Oh, I know, she wants doing her "ministry" but if someone doesn't speak as she thinks they should, your gonna put your fist in their face?
After all that bullshit and we were talking again, it 's coming down to how now she will check herself into the pysch hospital. She is someone that puts to much emphasis on the past and won't let go of her precious Jehovah.
It's been good talking with a sibling that isn't shunning but she is not going to tell me how to live my life...I will answer to God, thank you very much for thinking you can [control[ me...any more than I can control her.
Last Edited By: Linda Oct 5 14 1:18 PM. Edited 2 times.
status offlineinspecterD
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I am so sorry that you are having such a rough time with your family at this time. You must have hit a nerve that helped your sister to see she needs help. That's a plus. I know it is awful to think that everyone is considering you the bad one but NOT HERE! Keep your chin and realize that you have escaped the Borg and that there will be fall out. Because you are not one with them they will always (until they figure out otherwise about the Borg) consider you as less than approved. It hurts when it is family that is so disapproving but realize that we are here for you and know for a fact that you are just as approved as anyone else. In fact, you smarter than the average bear when it comes to knowing TTATT.
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Thank you, InspecterD for responding to my post smiley: smile
It's a very sad situation taking place right now and although my community of loving people have gone out of their way for helping her too - she does not have permission to shame me.
"Fence-rider" is the one that [at this time] cannot find forgiveness from those that once harmed her and I find that concept to be very hateful. I didn't realize how much my beloved sister was IMO, so full of hate while professing to be a Christian that would tell others how they should live.
Because she and John have a good relationship and they talk all the time, John told me how she is still so worried about me. I want her to stop thinking about my spiritual condition and get busy with taking care of herself.
So, thanks again for the support because it's not going to be easy and no matter, I'll never stop loving my sister although she believes no one loves her.
It's not that people don't love her, she is the one that doesn't love herself and wants playing by the shame/blame game that many of us got over years ago.
Last Edited By: Linda Oct 6 14 2:50 AM. Edited 1 times.
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Lin-Unfortunately we all go through this kind of family stuff but with our own unique brand of it. The organization messes with us all way beyond the time we attend meetings. It's a hard thing to break away from psychologically. Sending good thoughts your way Lin.
smiley: happy
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I agree with Calm. I hope things get a bit better for you.
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She told me this morning, knowing she will be going back to AZ for packing up her stuff and move to this area - she had spoken with one of the elders. She mentioned that if it comes to her being DF, so be it.
Despite my 'breath' the other day, I'm hoping she realizes there is a life [even at her age, 70] and enjoy the remainder of her years. I'd hope to has some positive for sharing.
Hubby always quotes something he read: "Get busy living or get busy dying."
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Don't cry Lin.......its hard enough dealing with family members, but when you add the religion into the mix its impossible!! Your sister is not your guardian or your conscience, no matter how hard she tries to be.........that bloody sanctimonious jw 'I'm right' face will always kick in eh ??!!
So try not to get angry back at her, but DO be positive and forceful!! She have every right to live her life as she chooses......so she must afford you the same freedom!! Thats what real love and respect are all about
((Hugs))
Sam x
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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I'm learning that she is very forgetful as to what her plans are for getting relocated. I spoke with her one daughter last night....while she is reading her JW Bible and takes everything so serious and wants telling others how they should be spiritual towards Jehovah.
I try respecting her belief but she also needs respecting this is my home and all she needs doing is get busy across the street into her new home that everyone has helped get her out of a bad area and be our neighbor and we'll help her.
Sam. I actually do listen to much of what she says because we discuss family and I know it's not going to be easy for her. Hubby was forced to tell her it's time to get busy living her life because where she's living in our part of the home and she is welcome, he needs doing some more remodeling before our weather changes. I've had to make a list of what she needs getting done across the street and stop fretting about my home.
I didn't realize it would be this difficult...so of course I appreciate the support and love. All those hugs and love go back to ya'll.
Last Edited By: Linda Oct 9 14 5:08 AM. Edited 1 times.
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Lin honey ..... you need some of my 'who gives a shit' attitude when it comes to family members who are jdubs!
You don't have to respect your sister's beliefs. You can accept that it's her choice to be part of a fantasy island type religious experience ...... but you don't ever have to agree with it. There's a difference. Hopefully she will soon be back in her own space and you can put some distance between you. I absolutely adore my sister ... so if you need a nice one, I could be persuaded to share her with you!!!!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Rhonda...good point. I will never respect her religion, I just love her.
We've been making progress when all of sudden hubbies 'old religion'showed up and I want being kind to them too. I'm sick of religion and having family telling me how I should believe or not in the bible so I'm learning when those times comes it easier for me to simply go rest my body because I'm old and tired and don't want listening to what they discuss because I'll disagree with church doctrine -I don't care what church it is.
Dinner should be ready for John's church members that will carving the pumpkins for the holiday season...sister is invited for dinner and I'm going back to bed and rest my tired body and I most certainly don't want hearing some judgment because I'm not going to be there.
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I just posted something in another story because this computer is so screwed up...
"Patience is a Grace"...so, guess I'm not very grateful for just being able to post because everything gets screwed up and I'm at a loss for what to do.
I do enjoy Yuku server and it gets lost among the other things on line...especially when John has cleaned everything out and I need starting all over again.
So, update on why I can continue having support from you beloved people - she would not join us for dinner because of whatever? I'm learning to just let her live her life but refuse seeing her go hungry. She just hides away in the dark, waiting until she has money for going back to AZ and bring here stuff here. I know she suffers from depression but don't put that crap on me about not joining in on a happy event.
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As much as you love your sister Lin ...... you still have your hubby and your life to keep on track too. If your sister decides to hide herself away, there is nothing you can do but be there when she's not in the mood for hiding. Perhaps she's more jealous of your freedom than you realise and that's why she's finding it so hard to be civil all the time ...... jealousy and guilt do strange things to people, as you well know.
With regards to religion ...... I warn people up front that if that want to drag me into their religious conversations and share their religious ideas with me, it is at their own peril! Always gets a smile or a laugh when I say that. Those who don't know me though ... soon find out that religion and I have very differing opinions of one another!!!! haha
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Morning, Rhonda.
I spoke with my niece last evening and she continues to tell me it's her mothers way or no way. Hubby is getting tired of helping someone that apparently doesn't help themselves. So, because it is me and hubby, sister needs get off the pity pot just because she is older and he's fed up with her attitude.
Hell, none of us are getting any younger but we don't play by her rules for how we should live by her opinions. [control]
I thank ya'll again for being here for me during stressful times and hope I can encourage someone else at times.
Too, your thought as to just back out of any forum for a few minutes is working, thanks.
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There are some people in our world Lin ... who insist on having everyone dance to their merry and not-so-merry little tunes. The great thing about people like that ... is that they can only have dancers if the dancers are willing to dance! Maybe when your sister starts being silly ... you can just change the subject or start singing one of your favourite songs. That way her attention can be diverted and you will enjoy yourself!!!!
I'm glad the trick with the forum boards is working .... I've had to do that myself in the past.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Sorry you're having problems with your sister, Linda, I know it must hurt to want to help her but she won't let you.
It sounds like your sister is having some mental issues that are affecting her. I agree with your husband that you can't help someone that doesn't want to help themselves.
Best to love her from a distance while you continue living your life.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/179443/working_mom.html
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Tonight when we were having dinner together and we were discussing family issues/and of course the religion...she got on my nerves with telling me I sounded angry. Really? I sound angry just because I don't agree with you?
At any rate, she knows I'm not playing by her rules of conduct while she can remain hateful towards others. She took her dog home and we probably won't talk tomorrow because I'm the hateful one.
I'm trying not to beat myself up just because of her...She wants control over everything and it's not working for her because she is now on my turf where we practice love and forgiveness.
Thanks for letting me vent, again!
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Linda,
Maybe you should avoid discussing topics that cause tension and arguments.
I've learned that it's best to avoid controversial topics that I know are going to cause nothing but arguments.
Even when someone starts saying stuff I don't agree with, I just listen and then I change the subject.
At first I felt like I HAD to show them they were wrong and I was right, that if I just said
the right thing I could change their mind, but now I realize I can't change the way someone feels about something,
no more than they can change how I feel about it.
It's best to agree to disagree. At first I felt like I was compromising, but I tried it
and you'd be amazed how much easier it makes life for you.
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status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Hi Palm.
That was a part of the problem the other night. When I walked away from the conversation ... and fence-rider took it as to 'why' I did such because I wasn't going to get into an argument over religion; she doesn't want hearing what I might say about her religion and of course because she knows I come here for support - I'm still the bad guy that needs going back to the KH and beg their forgivenesssmiley: mad When pigs fly!
I"d like thinking that any conversation would exclude religion...and for the most part it does. At the same time when something is said over a darn movie or whatever, she brings up her religious belief and I'm not playing by those rules according to the WTBTS that she still believes has the only truth.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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I no longer know how to communicate with society because I disagree with her.
It's always ok when I can play by her rules but when I practice my boundaries, it's not ok. I'm not so stupid for not knowing it's the shame game and she most certainly tried that on me. I came home crying. I'm tired of crying over family and religious bullshit.
I've been so involved with community stuff that it can't be that bad because we [hubby and I] work together for getting some positive things done. But, I don't know how to communicate! And I sound like our father..smiley: ohwell according to sister.
It's the shame game that I'm not going to play. As the expression goes, "Been there and done that."
Every time for thinking as siblings we are making progress- it's how she will say something that reflects upon her mental illness from the JW belief.
I hate that religion because of what it has done to my family.
Edit: This latest incident, I'm not going to be so forgiving because she cannot shame me. It's best we just don't speak because I'm done trying to do any compromising with someone that wants to shame, blame, and condemn everything and everyone for the quality of their life.
Fence-rider is a very negative person...and I must be on guard because she also wants talking behind my back to my husband and believe me, that one doesn't work.
I do try understanding she suffers from depression but I also know that one cannot be happy when riding the fence. Make a fucking decision and stop riding the fence where you want everyone else miserable just because you are.
Last Edited By: Linda Nov 30 14 4:29 AM. Edited 2 times.
status offlineCeili
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Hi Linda,
still following you....hahaha.
You seem quite entangled (Imagine me saying this softly and gently, please. I have been entangled too, and knows what it feels like, albeit it wasn't the JW.) And whatever your sister is saying and doing, finds a target somewhere inside you.
One upset/depressed person and one responding/upset person equals two persons with upsets.
Huggles
Ceili xx
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Linda, if your sister can not respect the boundaries you have in place then you're probably going to have to cut her out of your life completely.
Life is too short to waste it on people that drag you down.
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Hi, Ceili- I don't mind at all that you follow me around. I'm grateful that you have continued coming back and share with others.
Palm, it's going to be difficult doing what I need doing because our family is full of hate and I don't want being like them but at the same time it's for staying firm with how they can no longer control me.
Sorry Jesus I'm not bending my knee to you at the moment! But then I realize you died for all of humanity...and I'm enjoying seeing the Christmas Lights come alive this time of year.
Once again it's almost impossible for saying a proper "Thank You." Except to say it again. I've been given some loving advice for how to help me deal with JW insanity. I just want love in my life and although I can have my moments too, it's not fair taking it out on others. Thanks for helping me...woohoo
Last Edited By: Linda Dec 1 14 5:42 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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This is another reason I love you people.
I'm sick of talking about my sister. As I just posted on another forum, we just spent more money for helping her.
I want her to leave my community because it's endless stress- it's always someone's fault...never has she been anything but kind; according to her.
Thank you all again for your support.
Palm - I appreciate all the replies but it has gotten to the point that she just can't drag me down any more. I told hubby last night that if I don't deal with this situation in a mature manner he will be putting me in the loony tunes because I just can't deal with much more.
I try not being like our other family members that shun...I do have boundaries and it's time I start practicing what I would preach. Thank ya'll again for being here for me.
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Skinny Jeans
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offlineKBG
Skinny Jeans
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Nov 10 14 4:17 PM
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http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/11/10/jehovahs-witnesses-boss-dont-wear-tight-trousers-theyre-designed-by-homosexuals/
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/11/10/jehovahs-witnesses-boss-dont-wear-tight-trousers-theyre-designed-by-homosexuals/comments/#disqus_thread
status offlineBeachLady
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I was just coming on here to post something about this. This is hilarious -- but typical. I remember a long list of things we weren't supposed to do, wear or look at.
Nice to see that their idiocy is making the national news. They're really showing their butts lately. smiley: devilsmiley: roll
If you want to be happy, be. ~Leo Tolstoy
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It must be absolutely EXHAUSTING to be a GB member...especially Anthony Morris III. Reading all those fashion industry newspapers and magazines, attending all those fashion week openings, interviewing the latest designers, watching the fashion contest programs on TV (I don't even know the name) and searching for the latest clothing trends on the streets of Brooklyn Heights. Can you imagine the hours spent, the research that goes into it, the effort expended for the edification of the "brothers and sisters"? And the GB, being the examples of "sartorial splendor" that they are...kindly give of their time, all in the name of serving their followers, who certainly would not be able to avoid absolute nakedness if they were not directed as to what the appropriate "Jarhoover-approved" garments are. Sarcasm But he'd better mind his business when it comes to my SPANX (most popular undergarment designed for women in many years, a very comfortable panty-girdle) and I would NEVER give them up. Now tell me, HOW WOULD HE EVEN KNOW IF WOMEN ARE WEARING IT OR NOT? binoculars Sherlock Holmes (Boy, do they need to get a life!)
Last Edited By: cangie Nov 11 14 12:57 PM. Edited 2 times.
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WTF.....................smiley: rollsmiley: rollsmiley: roll
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status offlineCeili
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I read about this on another forum (yea, that's how gripping it is), and here's where it stops being comprehensible. I've tried to understand the logic, and I simply can't intellectually follow it. Don't wear tight pants. Ok. What drugs are they on? Are they for real? A caricature? Sound as if they haven't been let out in a while, these old geezers in their ivory tower some place far far away.
Ceili xx
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All I can think of is this video with Will Ferrell and Jimmy Fallon ---- I would love to send it to that idiot. Tight Pants with Will Ferrell and Jimmy Fallon
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As I posted in another thread here...women also design skinny jeans for men! (Not lesbians but heterosexual women...) What now WBTS!?
status offlineJoe Magarac
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There are some other religions where tight pants would be a no-no,
but are there any other religions where it would be a gay conspiracy?
status onlineAndriaSyxx
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He would have made more sense by saying that tight pants could restrict the sperm from floating about freely in the ball bag areas of tight-pants-wearing males! haha
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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On the topic of skinny jeans-- last night I visited with the only JW who is still talking to me since my abrupt exit over three years ago. She welcomed me into her home, and we had a nice long chat about all things JW-- the good, the bad and the ugly. Years ago this born-in JW showed me a recording of Barbara Andersen on NBC's Date Line exposing the WT for protecting pedophiles! She is still married to, but separated from her DF'd bisexual JW husband. The first time he cheated they told her she was not spiritually free to remarry, 'cuz, as you know, adultery only happens between a man and a woman. smiley: sick Now she feels it's too late to leave him, as they are in their seventies and dependent on each other financially. Trust me when I say cognitive dissonance is killing her! The only reason she is still a JW is that she needs to believe that her life has not been wasted and that she will see her sister again in paradise.)
Anywho, no sooner had I walked in the door, when she exclaimed, "You are wearing THOSE tight jeans!" smiley: eek (I'm certain she meant THOSE infamous AM III tight jeans. smiley: devil ) She asked me to turn around, so I obliged. Her only comment, "They're flattering! Where did you get them?" smiley: tongue
SailAway's best asset strikes again! smiley: roll
status offlineKBG
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SailAway wrote:
....."You are wearing THOSE tight jeans!" smiley: eek ....Her only comment, "They're flattering! Where did you get them?" smiley: tongue
SailAway's best asset strikes again! smiley: roll
Rock on sista!
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.... I'm with Kevvie .... #11 [-]
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................. rock on Sista Sailaway with the tight buns of cuteness!!!!! Bow down before youBow waveBow down before youbow downbow downbow down
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Meant to add earlier ........ the hierachy of the borg have been known to say that people can also become homosexuals if they receive a blood transfusion from a homosexual too didn't they? I do remember that flawed logic being bandied about. It didn't seem to matter if a man received blood from a woman ... obviously a man's genetic structure is much stronger than a woman's so he wouldn't turn into a woman ..... but ending up homosexual because of blood transfusion? Blech ... no wonder we don't take them seriously eh! Blood is blood ... and as it turns out ... it is thicker than water!!! haha
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AndriaSyxx wrote:
Meant to add earlier ........ the hierachy of the borg have been known to say that people can also become homosexuals if they receive a blood transfusion from a homosexual too didn't they?
Wow I hadn't heard of this one before I think they for rid of it. But can you just imagine the shitstorm that would happen if people got a hold of one of the gb members saying that. Considering how much fun some media outlets are making, I'd imagine theyd start treating the gb like they treat pat Robertson.
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Not only did Tight Pants Tony talk about tight pants, he did mention people with bulges in airports........now, what's he doing checking out bulges in airports. If I was his wife, I'd be worried. As it happens, he's doing our work for us in turning folk away from JW.org and providing us with comedy gold to boot.
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
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status offlinewingnut
My Walmart Wrangers are too tight!!! #15 [-]
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It must be the beer and pizza but whatever, I'm in my 60's so I have earned the right to wear tight jeans and turn on members of the GB. smiley: roll
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You go for it Wingnut .... I'm sure the GB's other 'name' is 'Giant Balls' ...... haha
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Old men should not wear baggy old dress pants #17 [-]
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There's probably some gay folks somewhere who are turned on by baggy old suit paints sagging off a boney white butt. Somebody should warn Anthony, he might want to switch to sweats or something. smiley: devil
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Supposedly the world is on the brink of a once and for all cleansing, bringing a war against god, where bodies will be piled up for the survivors to have to bury, the earth charred to a crisp, yadda yadda and this guy, one of 12? of the only humans with a direct line to god the almighty is focused on tight pants? Has he nothing to say about the JW tennis star who I happen to google a while back and lo and behold, there she was in nothing more than a thong and little old me, sitting there looking at her athletic bare buns? Quite beautiful I must say, but cannot believe this got past the let's-find-something-wrong-with-everything radar.
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I like a man in pants that are not baggy or tight either. I like them to curve around with the shape of the guy and they sort of outline his butt cheeks smoothly and beautifully as he walks. When he stands still, they curve round his bottom, but then fall straight down, leaving one's mind to imagine. The problem with the baggy ones is you can't see anything. The problem with tight ones is that one's hind quarters must conform to the pants, thus what you are seeing with tight pants is the way the pants go, not the way his bottom goes.
Not that I sit and watch men's butts as they walk past me in the mall. I mean, hey, I'm sitting on a mobility scooter, so what can I do but notice men's butts? they're just right there.
Sometimes women are a problem though, because they get in the way of my observations and studies of men's pants.
I should take notes when I'm out, and pictures, yes pictures so when i send my study to the University I'll have something to back up my findings.
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Journey wrote:
I like a man in pants that are not baggy or tight either. I like them to curve around with the shape of the guy and they sort of outline his butt cheeks smoothly and beautifully as he walks. When he stands still, they curve round his bottom, but then fall straight down, leaving one's mind to imagine. The problem with the baggy ones is you can't see anything. The problem with tight ones is that one's hind quarters must conform to the pants, thus what you are seeing with tight pants is the way the pants go, not the way his bottom goes.
Not that I sit and watch men's butts as they walk past me in the mall. I mean, hey, I'm sitting on a mobility scooter, so what can I do but notice men's butts? they're just right there.
Sometimes women are a problem though, because they get in the way of my observations and studies of men's pants.
I should take notes when I'm out, and pictures, yes pictures so when i send my study to the University I'll have something to back up my findings.
JourneyI can tell you are an authority on the subject. Now that you've said it, I see the WHY of too baggy or too tight being less attractive. You did a great job of putting that to words. Its hard to work mobility scooter into a conversation about tight pants, another kudos to you. Every other phrase makes me LOL.
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SailAway, I envy you. My days of rocking a pair of tight jeans are LONG gone. If you got it, flaunt it. Andria, I don't remember that about turning gay by getting blood from a gay donor, but I do remember something similar. In an old Watchtower (my mom used to have the volumes going back to the early 60s) there was something about not getting organ transplants because you would take on the personality of the donor. If the donor was a criminal, you would become a criminal. Total stupidity. Funny, except JWs actually BELIEVE it.
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KBG, thank you! I had fun writing that. :D
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sg75, there was something about the personality changes for blood transfusions too way back. I think around the 1970s. I have a friend whose son is a hemophiliac. He'd have to get one of those Factor 8 shots if he started bleeding for some reason. She said that for a while after the shot, his personality did seem to change, for a few hours or couple of days. I forgot, but it wasn't long. That family is not and never has been JW or even studied with a JW. She said that sometimes he'd go wild in ways he hadn't been before. And sometimes he'd get unusually quiet for a time. Things like that. Nothing weird or frightening, and perhaps those things could be explained by the events of his day, etc.
I doubt that phenomenon is in any medical literature. I don't know if they've ever done a study. But my friend did observe that from watching her own son.
But I have known several people over the years who have gotten organ transplants and they are still themselves. One of them is alive now and is so sweet and funny, just like he's been since he was a kid. Another has become quieter and almost depressed, but that is explainable. I doubt any of them has had a massive personality change.
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Yep ... there was the personality changes thing too SG. I remember it well. Even as far as if you were a man and got a woman's blood ...you'd start behaving like a woman! Of course the old WBTS will deny deny deny it!!!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Oh, the denial! The WBTS goes so far into denial that they don't put those old anti-transplant articles in their index. If you're trying to locate old information, you'll never find it. Just what the GB currently wants you to find. If it's not in the index, it doesn't exist in the JW mind. Bob forbid that they actually READ the old volumes!
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This is from scary, ultra conservative, bureaucratic Anthony Morris III.
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Janet, as for the 'personality change' my first thought was that if the boy was anoemic before the clotting factor, maybe after he just felt way better and was more energetic...
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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Actually, that could have happened, just him feeling better, and the extremes in his behavior weren't as dramatic as the WTS said. But his mother said the changes were short lived and not like him when they happened. Not dramatic changes, but short lived, personality changes for a while. But the kid is still alive and grown up and is a nice man. I don't think the blood caused any permanent changes. And it would certainly not be an argument to use against blood. He is alive today because of that.
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