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Big Eyes Movie Article
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offlinejerryjax99
Big Eyes Movie Article
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Dec 24 14 8:32 AM
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Hey everyone, I wanted to share this article along with a personal experience with her. http://national.deseretnews.com/article/3089/The-real-life-artist-portrayed-in-Big-Eyes-credits-her-newfound-faith-for-helping-her-take-a-stand.html
I was able to meet Margaret Keane in Pittsburgh, PA at the Corapolis congregation back around 2002 or so. She was traveling with another sister visiting PA and wound up meeting our current PO at the time and he invited her to the congregation to share her story after the service meeting. I was young at the time and thought it was amazing to meet her as I enjoyed the art. She mentioned that at first they all looked sad due to the world's state of affairs (how nothing would ever get better). Then as she learned the JW life they children now had "hope" and they became happy.
Now that I look back on it and even with this movie...those kids will be back to sad or hell even mad due to them having NOTHING to look forward too! image
status offlinewalkaway
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I remember reading an Awake article about her and remember it giving me such a good feeling to read why she stopped painting sad eyes. Now the feeling I have is mad at being duped and sad for all those that are still all duped.
Her big sad eye art was pretty popular way back then, but I don't think so much with out the sad eyes.
I wonder if she'll go back to painting sad eyes again if she ever learns TTATT?
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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Dec 24 14 11:37 PM
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Margaret Keane was in an abusive relationship with her husband. She then entered into another abusive relationship with a religious organization...see a pattern here?
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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Dec 25 14 11:33 PM
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This movie has been done well and is being recieved quite positively. I wonder how much Margarette Keane is profitting from this ( and she deserves to profit from it) and if she's donating any of the profits to Watchtower (who absolutely DON'T deserve any of the profits)?
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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[quote]Margaret Keane "credits her decision to join the Jehovah’s Witnesses, (for giving) her the courage to tell the truth about who was the painter in the Keane household," writes Vulture. “'The old sad art colors are gone,' she says. 'Now I paint bright colors. I paint paintings which are happy, where children are laughing and playing with animals. I paint paradise on earth,' as her reading of her Bible teaches her about. 'I still paint sadness sometimes, but there is sadness in the world, too.'"
[quote]
Oh blech ....... 'I paint bright colors .... I paint paradise on earth'.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineFiguringitout20
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This movie was recommended to me. Is it any good? Does it preach about JWs?
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My husband mentioned the movie to me the other day after seeing an ad for it. I told him I'd read the story years ago; I forgot it was in an Awake. Not my kind of art, but that's just me.
status offlineFiguringitout20
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Not my kind of art either and I definitely don't want to see it if it's preachy. But if it's well done, maybe worth a see? Just didn't want to bother if it's all about JWs.
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This might be one to wait and rent when it comes out on DVD. That way if you don't like it, you aren't out the price of a theater seat.
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I'm a Closet Atheist, but still an active JW
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offlineTO20
I'm a Closet Atheist, but still an active JW
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Jul 28 13 5:17 PM
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I decided to finally tell my story to see what kind of advice I can get to help me in my situation.
I was born in the truth, and I got baptized at 14. I am now 22.
For the last 4 years of my life I have found myself slowly moving away from being a JW and I find myself firmly believing in science.
I am currently considered an active JW, although I only go to the occasional meeting and lie about my monthly service hours, just enough to keep the elders from not being overly concerned about my spiritual well being. My brother (a year older than me) is a faithful JW and my sister (a decade younger than me) is also a faithful JW, aiming to get baptized next year. My parents don't go to meetings but only because they don't feel like committing the necessary time required to be a JW, but they were regular attendees 5 years back, and my dad still defends his JW beliefs to anyone who challenges him.
I currently go to university and I am entering my third year in sept. Each time I attend a meeting or convention or whatever else, I grow frustrated that I'm wasting hours a week on something I find to be hypocritical that I don't even believe in. During the semester it's worse because of the time I have to commit to university (although time consuming, I enjoy university a lot), I really don't want to be going to a meeting (and sit through the same mundane crap every week) when I could better spend that time studying.
There are times I wish I could just renounce my faith in front of the elders and go on my merry way and focus on my future.
My issue is, my 2 closest friends are all JW's and it would really suck to lose them, one is an MS another will likely become and MS soon. I have friends outside the organization but none that I am as close to as my JW friends. My family are all JW's (although my parents are fairweather JW's I don't want to risk alienating them since I depend heavily on them while I'm in university). My sister knows I'm an atheist because she promised me she wouldn't tell anyone, and even she did, I could easily deny it.
My plan is to finally come out and tell everyone I'm an atheist once I reach financial independence and I move out of my parent's house, but that's years away from happening. And my JW friends are pushing me to be more spiritually involved which will take more time from my already loaded schedule, I just roll out with a different excuse everytime, they no I'm a study freak so I just use that excuse during the semester.
Hopefully this came out as coherently as possible, I had to proofread several times to make sure I was as clear as possible.
Last Edited By: TO20 Jul 28 13 7:11 PM. Edited 3 times.
status offlinehalf banana
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Welcome to the forum To20. It’s good to have you here and happy for you that you have realised "the truth about the truth" whilst you're still young. Many of us poor sods here have wasted decades of our lives in the Watchtower cult. It's also great that unlike the average Joe publisher, you are getting an education.
At the risk of jumping into the deep end; once you start analysing situations sceptically and critically (as you have to at uni) it is apparent there is no rational basis for much of religious belief. But do people want pure reason? No!--- It is an extremely difficult thing, in my experience, to ‘sell’ this state of mind since it does not stimulate the neurological reward system in the brain.
Belief in a supreme deity on the other hand comes with bells, whistles and euphoria.
Glad you’re here--- do let us know how you are handling the fade, your experience will be of interest to others--- And what are you studying?
status offlineTO20
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Jul 28 13 7:05 PM
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I'm studying business/information technology management,and minoring in economics.
I look forward to telling my story, it will likely take years for it to unfold but I look forward to the end result.
Last Edited By: TO20 Jul 28 13 7:46 PM. Edited 1 times.
status offlinepunkofnice
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Welcome TO20.
An education. Well done!
As for 'emboridering' your report to keep the hounders off your back I think you'll likely find that's what 99% of the JWs do anyway.
My issue is, my 2 closest friends are all JW's and it would really suck to lose them, one is an MS another will likely become and MS soon.
I'm going to be brutal here please forgive my lack of tact. If they base their friendship on whether you're a JW or not then they are clearly not REAL friends. It's called ''conditional love'' and that's all JWs are allowed to feel by their overlords the Governing paedophile protecting Body. A true friend is there for you no matter what you believe and as long as it's not harmful to others they are there for you no matter what life choices you make.
Yes it sucks me old matey!
Mind you if you are really bored at meetings you could note or record in some way the latest whacky stuff they say like all the hilarious cobblers that JW drones are spouting and report back here with it. If that's a way to lighten your burden.
....or you could hide ''the God Delusion'' or something of your choice in a NWT cover, sit at the far rear of the kingdumb hell where you can't be caught, and have a good read!
Anyway let us know how it all goes.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
status onlinecangie
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Welcome to the forum. You have taken a very brave first step towards your freedom in joining us here. Reaching your financial independence and leaving (if and when you are truly ready to do so, with the understanding that you will be giving up those two friends and probably your family) may be closer than you think, quite possibly right under your nose, so to speak. The fact that you call your schooling "university", (while in the USA we refer to it as "going to college"), tells me that you might not live in the US. If so, I don't know what financial resources are available to you, but I would suggest that you speak to an adviser and the financial services office, and explain your circumstances to them. If I am correct, I believe that (at least in NY, where I live) full-time students who are in financial need can apply for funds through Social Services, and qualify for money, food, housing and medical care, and have their schooling paid for, as well. Those things may be available to you also. It's worth a try to find out, and if so, at least you will have a position of strength from which to make a decision, instead of feeling stuck.
Take the time to do your research. I would think your school would do whatever they can to assure that you continue to be able to complete your degree, and good luck with your studies and reaching your goal.
status offlineCacky
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You aren't the only one who has to pretend. There are others on here. One is going back for reinstatement so she can have her family back. It's terrible that people have to outright lie about what they believe just to keep their family relationships, but that's how it is in that cult. So try to not let it get to you too much. It should help to know you aren't the only one having to lie/pretend to believe something you don't believe. The cult makes that necessary, not you. It sounds like you are fairly successful at it, so that's good. Just keep it up for as long as you have to. And as Punk said, you can always let us know of any outrageous things you hear of from the meetings. We like to get a peek inside as to what new drivel they are delivering.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Welcome...let me find an iconBalloonsThrow heart kisses
I'll check in later when I've not been up all night because I think this is another interesting topic. Take care, Lin
status offlinenevermind
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Congratulations on the education!
Not so good on the friends part, sorry. I had 3 or 4 friends who I spent all my time with. Once I was labelled bad association, that was it, they all disappeared
Such is life living in a religion that dictates even what family members you are meant to speak to for a different opinion than yours.
You maybe even able to speak frankly with your friends and they may agree about many things, in private. Unfortunately in public, peer pressure and the need for public conformity and fear of shunning on themselves, they will quickly leave.
All you can do is plant a seed and hope it grows and sprouts. Maybe one day they will walk up to you and say "Wow, you won't believe this but what you said really stuck with me".
We can but hope. :-(
But the good news is, that there are many good people out in the world who are good not because they fear Armageddon, but do it because they want to and out of their own motivations. Make friends with them :-)
status offlineTO20
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Jul 29 13 4:56 AM
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Thanks everyone, nice to be welcomed.
cangie wrote:
The fact that you call your schooling "university", (while in the USA we refer to it as "going to college"), tells me that you might not live in the US.
Correct, I live in Toronto, Canada.
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Welcome to the board, fellow Canadian! smiley: smile
Congrats on undertaking a university education. Good choice.
Entering third year? Do you plan on doing grad school? If not, two years of uni shouldn't cost all that much (of course 'not that much' is relative...). Canadian student loans are there for people who don't have other resources and two years of loans wouldn't be that difficult to deal with. Especially as you are taking a degree that should assure you employment when you are finished.
TO20 (is that a bit like 420? smiley: wink)...Punky brought up something that I thought of when I read your story. And that is the conditional nature of friendship within the JWs. As close as you feel to the friends you have inside the organization, that friendship is in jeopardy the moment that you step outside the confines of the JWs and decide to become the person you really are. It is unfortunate and it sucks. It is a terrible price that a person has to pay just in order to be fully present and who you are.
Good luck, TO20 and I am glad that you have stopped by to tell us your story. I hope you stick around.
smiley: happy
“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”
- Susan B. Anthony
status offlineTO20
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Jul 29 13 8:08 AM
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birdwoman2 wrote:
Entering third year? Do you plan on doing grad school?
TO20 (is that a bit like 420? image)...
Lol, no that wasn't my intention. I wanted my user name to remain somewhat obscure since I'm currently active and I don't want to risk getting caught by a nosy elder on this site. So i chose TO as an abbreviation of Toronto. The '20' was because it was the first number in my head.
I have never smoked or done drugs because Im scared shitless of getting cancer.
Yes, I plan on getting my masters, and eventually my PhD.
Last Edited By: TO20 Jul 29 13 8:17 AM. Edited 2 times.
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Hmmm. Well, then, A Masters and a PhD will require substantially more money. Mind you, by that time, you should have a source of income. Either scholarships, bursaries, or...if you lucky and good at what you do - a teaching position that will help pay the bills while you work on those extra letters behind your name. :)
Keep pursuing your education goals - put them first and the rest will fall into place. (always first)
*using marijuana does not increase a person's risk of cancer. In fact, it is prescribed quite often for cancer patients. For pain. And some people even claim that using marijuana shrunk their tumor. Jus' sayin'.
smiley: smokin
“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”
- Susan B. Anthony
status offlineTO20
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Jul 29 13 8:52 AM
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birdwoman2 wrote:
Hmmm. Well, then, A Masters and a PhD will require substantially more money. Mind you, by that time, you should have a source of income. Either scholarships, bursaries, or...if you lucky and good at what you do - a teaching position that will help pay the bills while you work on those extra letters behind your name. :)
Keep pursuing your education goals - put them first and the rest will fall into place. (always first)
*using marijuana does not increase a person's risk of cancer. In fact, it is prescribed quite often for cancer patients. For pain. And some people even claim that using marijuana shrunk their tumor. Jus' sayin'.
image
Fair enough.
And as for my education, I plan on working a few years before I go back and get my masters.
Last Edited By: TO20 Jul 29 13 9:11 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlinealexia
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Welcome to the forum!
I've been away for over 10 years but my mother still doesn't know. I left when I divorced my ex-husband for domestic violence (he was/is a JW). Since I lived in the next city over from my mother (she is in Oakland, I was in Berkeley) it was easy to "fake the funk". I haven't stepped foot in a KH in about 8 years and though I don't believe in a Christian god, creation, etc I know there is something higher than us out there. I also believe in the spirit world, astrology, life after death, and so on.
I did lose many friend only because I don't go to meetings anymore. Those were not my real friends. If they knew what I believe they would not have any problems throwing me under the bus.
status offlinesolitaire
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Welcome to the board TO20 :-)
Well done for seeing through the farce that is the organisation!! The sad part is that unfortunately we do lose all the people who made up our lives whilst we were 'in'...........but great part is that we take back control of our lives and gain the freedom to think for ourselves......
I wouldn't worry too much about the details of 'coming out'.......you are already mentally free, and the rest you must do when it suits you........there are a few here who are still living under the parents roof, and it would be detrimental to their future plans to say anything too soon!!
Its great to have you here, and I look forward to following your story, and your progress in the 'real world' smiley: smile
Sam
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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As many of us do...keep coming back because we do understand.
Keep at getting the education that will help you when older. You don't have to "clean window" the rest of your life" while others have figured out for getting a good retirement.
America is so hyprcrical...and it's my Country that I love. I just don't love the politicans or the religious.
I just spoke with a young girl that has goals because of how she was raised. It wasn't about how someone should support her, it was about how she could help herself....not having the happiest of life either.
It seems many of us do whatever for having a sense of family and then the day comes when it doesnt' matter because they will never change whereas we want making positive changes.
I'm with most here in that I'm don't give a shit about Jehovah or any god. I do however try finding peace within myself and not think I'm so ignorant and hateful that I cannot find love. LIN
status offline2true
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Aug 9 13 5:17 AM
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Hey T020. Sorry to hear about your situation.
Nothing much to add other than what's already been said.
I too come from a family of practicing JWs. My successful drift out of the borg was down to being able to move congregations and 'forget' to have my record cards forwarded.
It sounds like you're set on making the big announcement which will almost certainly result in you being DFd/DAd. You're just compromised by the amount of time it will take to reach financial independence.
You said you do have some friends outside the borg, although not as close. Is there any way you can become close enough to move in with someone or house share?
This idea of "I'm offended". Well I've got news for you. I'm offended by a lot of things too. Where do I send my list? Life is offensive. You know what I mean? Just get in touch with your outer adult. And grow up. And move on. Reasonable people don't write letters because... A: They have lives and B, they understand it's just TV. C: If they see something they don't like, something they do like might be on later. I've seen many comics I've hated. I've seen many shows that have offended me. I've never written a letter. I just go about my life.
Bill Hicks 1993
status offlineTO20
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Aug 10 13 9:20 AM
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Thanks for the welcome.
I don't really mind getting DF'd or DA'd. I could easily leave these people from the borg and not really care. Family might be a concern but I doubt they'll completely shun me.
I also plan on bringing as many people with me by planting seeds in their heads, just before I make the big announcement. If I'm lucky some of my friends will leave the borg as well.
My friends outside the truth became friends recently ( a year or two ago), I'll probably become closer to them but it will happen over time.
I'm patient so time isn't really an issue, since right now I'm doing well in school, keeping the elders at bay and I help my kingdom hall friends when they need spiritual advice (I might as well play the part so they don't suspect anything).
The tiresome thing is just having to drag my butt to the meetings, get my weekly dose of brainwash, and go back home, every week for the next few years.
My dilemma right now is deciding how to make the announcement in a few years. I want to go out with a bang. I thinking facebook post with all the flaws in the organization/bible, so any of my JW friends that read it will join me or at least I can make them question their faith. Then go to the following meeting where elders want to have a meeting with me, say my last few words and walk into the sunset.
status offline2true
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Aug 10 13 2:37 PM
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I'm raising my glass to you TO20.
Here's to 'going out with a bang' - Best of British luck to ya mate.
This idea of "I'm offended". Well I've got news for you. I'm offended by a lot of things too. Where do I send my list? Life is offensive. You know what I mean? Just get in touch with your outer adult. And grow up. And move on. Reasonable people don't write letters because... A: They have lives and B, they understand it's just TV. C: If they see something they don't like, something they do like might be on later. I've seen many comics I've hated. I've seen many shows that have offended me. I've never written a letter. I just go about my life.
Bill Hicks 1993
status offlinetinybluedot
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Aug 10 13 3:25 PM
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You might want to check this out:
http://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/wiki/index#wiki_exit_guide
"Which to you, is more awe inspiring; that you were created for the sole purpose of worshiping a dictator in the sky who forbids the joys of life? Or that you and I are the product of billions of years of evolution through natural selection, with each molecule making up the human body having once been a part of a distant star through the process of stellar fusion, having erupted from a supernova to one day allow each of us to sit and ponder our own existence. We are the universe becoming self aware. You can keep your gods, i belong to something greater."- Levi Herbert
status offlineLocutus
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@tbd:
Awesome link. Thanks!
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I'm a Closet Atheist, but still an active JW
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status onlineAndriaSyxx
#21 [-]
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Aug 11 13 9:50 PM
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TO20 wrote:
My issue is, my 2 closest friends are all JW's and it would really suck to lose them, one is an MS another will likely become and MS soon. I have friends outside the organization but none that I am as close to as my JW friends. My family are all JW's (although my parents are fairweather JW's I don't want to risk alienating them since I depend heavily on them while I'm in university). My sister knows I'm an atheist because she promised me she wouldn't tell anyone, and even she did, I could easily deny it.
My plan is to finally come out and tell everyone I'm an atheist once I reach financial independence and I move out of my parent's house, but that's years away from happening. And my JW friends are pushing me to be more spiritually involved which will take more time from my already loaded schedule, I just roll out with a different excuse everytime, they no I'm a study freak so I just use that excuse during the semester.
Hopefully this came out as coherently as possible, I had to proofread several times to make sure I was as clear as possible.
Hi there TO20 and welcome .......
I noticed that one of your issues is your jdub friends and that you don't want to lose them. Sadly it's quite common for our jdub friends to drop us like hot coals when they find out we're no longer as dedicated as they perhaps may be (or CLAIM to be in many cases) ..... but what you have to remember is that if this happens ... THEY are the ones shutting you out not the other way around. You are still the same you that you've always been ... minus a little more of the religious side of things as each day passes by ... but essentially you're still the same you.
If your jdub friends or family members for that matter .... decide that you're no longer worthy of associating with because you've come out as an atheist or that you're fading away slowly but surely ...... then THEY are the ones who are making the decision to walk away from you. Family will use emotional black far more effectively than friends (specially if they've been led to believe it will work) but TRUE friends won't shut you out just because you've had a change of religious status. If they do ... then they're not true friends.
If it means you have to bide your time until you're financially viable ... then do the bare minimum in order to keep everyone off your back or toss them an enigmatic "I have a few things to sort out with Jehovah ... I'll let you know if I need some help ...' and leave them to imagine what they will. It may buy you some valuable breathing space if nothing else. If you can't wait for however many years .. then start looking at alternatives. Part-time job/s ... shared housing ... grants or scholarships ... there'll be a way around this.
What you do with regards to the inevitable emotional blackmail and 'you're going to die' crap ... is entirely up to you. The world isn't ending any time soon. Our beloved Cee Cee was told that 60 odd years ago ... Sam, myself and a few others have been out for over 30 years or so ... and the world is STILL ticking along as it always has!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinethehappygoat
#22 [-]
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Aug 13 13 10:06 AM
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Welcome!
To add a little to what Rhonda/Andria said - my closest friends in the org. were the number one reason I stayed in as long as I did. I couldn't bear the thought of how they react if they heard I had quit. I would go down the list of them all in my mind and just cringe at what I knew would be their reactions. Plus, I really loved them and knew how much I would miss them.
Well, I lost all but one of them. I got a few emails and cards, all saying the same thing "Valerie, we love you. You are so important to us and we will always be here for you. Unless, of course, you stop serving Jehovah entirely."
Well, then, they weren't "always" there for me, were they? It took me a while to realize how conditional their friendships all were. But I mentioned I lost all but one of them. My oldest and dearest friend wrote to me "Valerie, I love you. You will always be my friend and nothing will come between us. Unless, of course, you turn into Jeffrey Dahmer and start eating people. Then I will still be your friend, but from a distance!" Dahmer was an infamous cannibalistic serial killer. Well, she stayed my friend because she herself left the org. and we have become closer than we ever were. She, and she alone, proved to be a true friend.
Yes, it was hard to lose the others. I missed them for a long time. But knowing now that our friendships ended simply because I could no longer worship the way they all thought I should has gone a long way in helping me get over them.
You have an awesome future and you will make many friends. It's hard to see the whole picture right now, but take it from someone who hung in there til I was 45, there is life after being a JW!
Valerie
status offlineThe Villain
#23 [-]
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Sep 13 13 5:03 PM
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I too grew up a Witness. I too went to college for a science degreeand it slayed Jehovah outright for me.
Once you understand the building blocks of the universe are rooted in physics, chemistry and math, belief in a magic father figure who lives in the sky and peeks thru your roof with x ray vision so he can keep a tally of how many times you masterbate, belief in a god seams sort of retarded.
I lost everyone: my family, my friends, everything!
It hurts at first, but once youve been alone in the world for a few years, it gets easier.
I put myself thru school. It was hard, I worked alot, and when it was over my degree was mostly worthless, but at least I got out into the world and discovered what normalcy was.
Dont be scared dude. Leaving is the most rewarding thing, and the hardest thing you will ever have to do.
Its worth it.
All the tears, struggles and pain are 100% worth it.
Ill die with my eyes open, on my feet like a man.
V
status offlineTO20
#24 [-]
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Sep 14 13 2:29 PM
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I have thought about my spirituality for 4 years now, at first i was trying to reject it, I was sacred. The thought of no god in my life helping me out was very scary at the time.
Last 2 years is when I came to accept the reality of the situation, I eventually realized it wasn't scary, but rather enlightening. It's nice re-evaluate my belief system and find out what I actually stand for and believe in.
But gradually I've come to accept it.
The only hard part is living this lie until I can live on my own, and admit my atheism to everyone. It's very annoying having to agree with my JW 'friends' and issues I couldn't be more against.
But until then, I'll just go through the motions when I'm at the meetings. And while I'm at it try and discreetly plant seeds in peoples heads.
I'm just happy I became enlightened early in my life, that my future hasn't been affected much. Although I wish I realized it earlier, as I would have probably taken and more science/engineering route in my post-secondary career if I did. Since in those 2 years I realized I am an atheist, I developed a huge interest in theoretical and quantum physics, but I don't have much time to dedicate to it.
status offlinerawe
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Sep 14 13 6:01 PM
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Hi TO20,
Welcome to the forum. I too am an atheist and like you attempted to live within the organization while being a closet atheist. When I fully accepted the theory of evolution in 2005, I did resign as an elder. In my letter I did express that I was having doubts about the existence of God and had a more favourable view of evolution than was taught in our publications. From that point forward I was able to hang on for another 2 years.
Eventually though the dichotomy between who I really was on the inside and what I presented at the Kingdom Hall came to a breaking point.
I now believe that regardless of how one leaves the faith, you will experience a degree of burn. This is nothing we would wish for, but the leaders of the faith set out a loyalty test for members that inevitably leads to divisions between members and non-members.
I hope you don't mind a shift in focus at this point... I'm reading the book Quantum Physics for Dummies. I'm 48 and fairly set in my life and career. If you have an interest in this subject, I would say, pursue it! The irony is Jehovah's Witnesses call their faith "the truth", which of course it absolutely is not -- but seeing on paper actual equations that speak to the fundamental nature of our material existence is truly getting a handle on "the truth" -- it computes!
My very best wishes in your journey. I really have come to hate how religious leaders can influence our family and friends!
Take care,
-Randy
Last Edited By: rawe Sep 14 13 6:06 PM. Edited 1 times.
status onlineAndriaSyxx
#26 [-]
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Sep 14 13 9:33 PM
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TO20 ... rather than think of your current situation as 'living a lie' ....... instead why don't you think of it like I did ... 'biding my time until I can leave under my own steam'! Far less stressful on your heart and mind that way!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineTO20
#27 [-]
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Dec 14 13 5:49 PM
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Finally done my grueling exam schedule, and a long awaited break is finally here.
Now that I have plenty of time available, I figure I would come here and say a friendly 'Hello'.
status offlineMystla
#28 [-]
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Dec 14 13 6:52 PM
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wave
Hello. smiley: happy
How did your exams go and when will you know the results?
"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago; the second best time is now"
-old Chinese proverb
status offlineTO20
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Dec 14 13 7:28 PM
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I feel like it went well, I'll find out soon enough. Should get my marks just before Christmas, thanks for asking.
status offlinesolitaire
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Dec 15 13 1:54 AM
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Fingers crossed for your results!! I think its a great idea for you to kill some time in here...........whilst you are still 'under the radar' at least you can pop in here and let off steam after those interminable meetings!!! Plus we will have another 'spy' who can keep us up to date and provida us with our 'food at the appropriate time' smiley: wink
Sam x
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlineSailAway
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Dec 15 13 6:25 AM
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image Welcome to the forum TO20!
I’m sorry I missed your intro post back in the summer—must have been off sailing somewhere. Congrats on re-evaluating your belief system at such a young age. As born-ins and raised-ins, often every decision we have made has been based on a lie. Just know that there is no rush to figure out what you believe and no need to replace one belief system with another. We won’t always have the answers like we were told we did when we were in the organization. That’s OK.
Finishing your education is key to your future. If you have an interest in Physics, please consider pursuing that-- If it is your passion, all the more so. The market is flooded with IT and Business Management graduates. My husband left for the same reasons your started your exit— bored to tears at the vapid meetings and a love for science.
Even if you think your parents won’t shun you, and your sister won’t rat you out, be prepared. They are Captives of a Concept. http://captivesofaconcept.com/index_for_site_all.html That is why your father still defends his beliefs. My husband was out 30 years before I left. He just went on with his life believing they “basically had it right and were pretty much benign.” I would suggest that you do your own thorough research into WT history, doctrine and false prophesies while you are on bread from Uni. Jwfacts.com is a good place to start. Prove to yourself The Truth about the Truth (TTATT).
As far as friends in the WT, they are conditional friends. You need to build a community of support for when you break ties. After 42 years in I have one friend standing, and I’m only “inactive”. If you don’t call them, they won’t call you. I love this friend dearly, but we live different lives now. I know she can’t let go of the hope of a paradise earth and seeing her brother who committed suicide decades ago in his early twenties. I know she would shun me if told to. I would love her no less and miss her terribly and be sad that she missed living a truly fulfilling life.
It is hard to build and maintain friendships that withstand the test of time. Friendships often revolve around a mutual interest. When we move on to something different, whether a new interest or a new job, most friendships fall by the wayside. Only a few become part of our “heart family” as one of our posters calls it. Family doesn’t have to be based on blood ties.
Wishing you freedom and family!
What is needed for dramatic change is an accumulation of acts, adding, adding to, adding more, continuing. We know that it does not take everyone on Earth to bring justice and peace, but only a small, determined group who will not give up during the first, second, or hundredth gale.
One of the most calming and powerful actions you can do to intervene in a stormy world is to stand up and show your soul. Soul on deck shines like gold in dark times. The light of the soul throws sparks, can send up flares, builds signal fires, causes proper matters to catch fire. To display the lantern of soul in shadowy times like these – to be fierce and to show mercy toward others; both are acts of immense bravery and greatest necessity.
Struggling souls catch light from other souls who are fully lit and willing to show it. If you would help to calm the tumult, this is one of the strongest things you can do.
Excerpts from, You Were Made for This, by Clarissa Pinkola Estes, Ph.D
status offlinerawe
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Dec 15 13 6:56 AM
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Hi TO20,
Finally done my grueling exam schedule, and a long awaited break is finally here. Now that I have plenty of time available, I figure I would come here and say a friendly 'Hello'.
Hopefully you're down time during the holiday season will be nice break. Your post reminded me how fast time goes by. I mentioned that I was reading Quantum Physics for Dummies in the post several months back. Since then I've sent it back to the library and check it out again, but haven't started to re-read it yet.
I hope you've been able to continue the "slow... fade" from the faith in a way that works best. So frustrating to hear this! Most parents would be delighted to have a child pursuing higher education such as yourself and they would be happy to talk with their friends about it. Alas, even being 'fairweather' Witnesses means a need to be guarded on the subject. Hopefully your sister who knows your feelings continues to be supportive.
Cheers,
-Randy
status offlineTO20
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Dec 15 13 1:11 PM
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Solitaire, don't think I'd be much use in being a spy, lol, in the last 4 months, I've probably only went to 2 meetings plus the convention. So literally have no idea about the details they're teaching now, I'm kind of familiar with the 'new light'. I'm pretty sure I'm considered inactive at this point. Since I haven't handed in a service report in probably 5 months. Not having to commit 4+ hours a week to them is so liberating, except when I had to go to the convention, that was torture, luckily it was a one day convention. And even when I did go I just zone out, my attention span is probably 10 mins, when I'm not interested in something.
Sailaway, since I came on this forum back in august, I spent so much time reading jwfacts and jwsurvey. I never realized how wrong they were, it confirmed my stance in regards to my opinions of the organization. I initially had similar beliefs as your husband, where JW's had the correct interpretation of the bible, the problem was I just didn't believe in the bible. I've done a complete 180 on that belief, and now firmly believe they are a poisonous influence to people.
As for pursuing physics, I'm seriously considering going for a second degree in a science/engineering field. I still got a year and a half left in my current program, so still plenty of time to decide. I feel like if I don't at least try I will end up regretting it later in my life, but I'll see how things go until then.
Rawe, my slow fade has been unintentionally sudden (as I mentioned above) because of time constraints from school, since there's no way I'm gonna compromise my grades to go to the hall. It made my last convention interesting when I saw the people from my hall. And yes time really does go by fast, feels like it was only yesterday I first posted here, and I was about to begin my third year. It's comforting to know all this is probably go by quickly, and I can finally live the life I want. Until then I'll keep biding my time.
status offlineSailAway
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Dec 15 13 3:31 PM
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TO20 wrote:
And even when I did go I just zone out, my attention span is probably 10 mins, when I'm not interested in something.
Sailaway, since I came on this forum back in august, I spent so much time reading jwfacts and jwsurvey. I never realized how wrong they were, it confirmed my stance in regards to my opinions of the organization. I initially had similar beliefs as your husband, where JW's had the correct interpretation of the bible, the problem was I just didn't believe in the bible. I've done a complete 180 on that belief, and now firmly believe they are a poisonous influence to people.
As for pursuing physics, I'm seriously considering going for a second degree in a science/engineering field. I still got a year and a half left in my current program, so still plenty of time to decide. I feel like if I don't at least try I will end up regretting it later in my life, but I'll see how things go until then.
TO20, Glad to hear you have educated and inoculated yourself against the WT by learning TTATT!
Yeah, my eyes glaze over after abut 10 seconds of a post about doctrine! I don't even go on the Debate Forum!
Go for it with your education-- no regrets! I got swindled out of my college education (on full scholarship) because of the WT 1975 lies and propaganda.
More great reading: Combating Cult Mind Control and other books by Steven Hassan can help you wake up your family.
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” ― Marcus Aurelius
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Oct 27 14 12:51 PM
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Its been a while since I posted. So I come to say hello to everybody.
It's amazing how much things change in an year.
So here's a little status update:
I'm still in university studying my ass off.
My brother has been disfellowshipped, and said he's not planning on going back. That was pleasant to hear.
My sister also said she's tired of the religion crap. She says she agnostic at this point, and has ambitions to go into the medical field. I think my constant JW thrashing made her see the reality of the religion. Although her over obsessive bible teacher and her elder husband, probably also help turned her off to the religion.
Looks like the JW cycle is ending in my family. Although I still keep my atheism to myself, since I still go to university with a JW and my grandparents are also JWs. I thought about telling my parents, I'm pretty sure they might be supportive of me, but I haven't found the need to do so yet since they don't put any religious pressure on me. But things are looking up.
Once again, hello to everybody, and thank you for your kind words from when I first posted. Although I don't post often I always lurk and this forum always brings a smile to me.
status offlinehalf banana
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Well done TO20! Glad to hear that you are still studying hard and that the JW influence is reducing in your family. It takes years to clear up the fallout after a family has been hit by the Watchtower bomb.
As for your friends; how about leaving a festering question of doubt in their minds without committing yourself to an answer?
It could be one such as "Why is there no evidence for anything the Watchtower says?" Or something like; "Its strange how the organisation hangs on to the 1914 doctrine when it's based on the wrong year." i.e.607 BCE. Babylon actually destroyed Jerusalem in 587 BCE...there are extant astronomical records which the Babylonians kept which could only refer to that year, they make reference to the positions of the key planets of the solar system, such alignments only recur at vast time intervals.
(The Babylonians were a lot brighter than the Watchtower org!)
By encouraging your JW friends this way, they might listen to you in the future...
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
Last Edited By: half banana Nov 1 14 12:33 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineTO20
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Nov 1 14 10:09 AM
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I've tried but it's incredibly hard with them. They're the kind of people that if the watchtower said 1+1=3, they would instantly believe it without question and anyone that says 1+1=2 is being used by Satan to deceive people.
So anything that contradicts the doctrines they teach, they just blame Satan trying to manipulate them. They're the kind of people the governing body love to have in their organization.
status offlinehalf banana
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Are your friends annoying or are they annoying?
Even with the zombie mindset, I know from personal experience that engaging, open questions can get into the deeper recesses of the JW brain.
When I was in the org, a couple of friends independently left me with such questions which enabled me to think harder about the logic (or lack of) in some of the Witness teachings. Especially when encountering new cognitive dissonance, the other questions having been stewing quietly in the background now add up to a lot of questions to answer. In the end the doubts can begin to be justified with proper research and evidence. JW doctrine is never based on hard facts ...just a mindless belief that if it’s in the Bible then it’s true. How wrong can you get?
You might think of more pertinent points to leave with your friends, they don't have to be critical of the org, just deep points that get them to think.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status offlinesolitaire
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Hey there TO and welcome back :-)
Looks like the JW cycle is ending in my family.
Thank goodness for that!! There are so many who would love to be able to utter that sentence..........hopefully your family will be one of the lucky ones, able to escape and live their lives as they please!!
I totally agree about not saying things just for the sake of it...........if your life is going well, and you have no pressures on you from jw family...why rock the boat??!! We are always saying that 'each to their own' is how we should live..... so they are free to follow their own lives as they see fit, as long as it doesn't impinge on yours!
Nice to have an update, and keep up the studying....................remember, if it gets difficult, it still beats studying the jw literature smiley: smokin
Sam x
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status onlineAndriaSyxx
.... thanks for the update TO20! #40 [-]
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TO20 wrote:
Its been a while since I posted. So I come to say hello to everybody.
It's amazing how much things change in an year.
So here's a little status update:
I'm still in university studying my ass off.
My brother has been disfellowshipped, and said he's not planning on going back. That was pleasant to hear.
My sister also said she's tired of the religion crap. She says she agnostic at this point, and has ambitions to go into the medical field. I think my constant JW thrashing made her see the reality of the religion. Although her over obsessive bible teacher and her elder husband, probably also help turned her off to the religion.
Looks like the JW cycle is ending in my family. Although I still keep my atheism to myself, since I still go to university with a JW and my grandparents are also JWs. I thought about telling my parents, I'm pretty sure they might be supportive of me, but I haven't found the need to do so yet since they don't put any religious pressure on me. But things are looking up.
Once again, hello to everybody, and thank you for your kind words from when I first posted. Although I don't post often I always lurk and this forum always brings a smile to me.
How wonderful would it be for your own immediate family to just fade away and never go back to that dreadful cult eh! I am one of five siblings and only one of our brothers is still one of 'the brothers'. It's quite amusing given he was the naughty black sheep when he was younger!!!! Always a fence sitter I think ... too scared to just bite the bullet and walk away like the rest of us. In fairness to him though ... he was the only one silly enough to get baptised!
Be careful with studying your ass off too much ..... or you won't be able to stay put in your chair! smiley: roll Yeah I know ... dumb mum type of joke! My boys would shake their heads and say 'oh MUM!' smiley: wink
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Sharing my Screw-you-I-quit letter
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offlineMagenta
Sharing my Screw-you-I-quit letter
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Dec 18 14 12:13 PM
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Hi Everyone - it's been awhile. You were all so much help to me. It's been fantastic just getting on with my life.
But some things need to be said (eventually) so I delivered the following letter (by email with a read receipt - so I know he got it) to the PO of my old congregation a few days ago.
Waiting to see how the powers-that-be (who move in mysterious ways) will respond, if at all.
Here's what it says...
This is to inform you that I disassociate myself from the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Watchtower Society.
I regret that I was ever associated with an organization that:
•· Breaks up families and drives people to suicide through its shunning policy.
•· Teaches that people who have chosen to leave are “mentally diseased” http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/28/jehovahs-witness-magazine_n_985479.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8791196/Police-inquiry-over-Jehovahs-Witness-magazine-mentally-diseased-article.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/war-of-words-breaks-out-among-jehovahs-witnesses-2361448.html
•· Drives its members into depression with unreasonable expectations , mixed messages and emotional blackmail http://masonemerson.freeyellow.com/christianwitnessescom/id178.html https://www.change.org/p/launch-an-investigation-to-determine-if-jehovah-s-witnesses-have-a-right-to-use-coercion-forms-of-mental-torture-to-force-its-members-not-to-leave
•· Protects sexual abusers in positions of authority instead of protecting and seeking justice for the young victims http://www.silentlambs.org/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/another-church-sex-scandal/ http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/march5/11.23.html/ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/2119903.stm
•· Pays out millions to settle sexual abuse cases but keeps the rank and file in ignorance on these matters. http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/oct/31/jehovahs-witness-sex-abuse-judgment-lopez/ (I wonder how ordinary JWs feel about their contributions being used in this way.)
•· Warps young minds with “us and them” thinking and graphic pictures and descriptions of death and destruction, which I consider to be an insidious form of child-abuse. I personally know of children who have told fellow classmates (with delight) that Jehovah is going to kill them.
•· Revels in spreading the “good news” that everyone but them will die horrible deaths at Armageddon – an event they have predicted dozens of times, but remains “around the corner”, “on the horizon”, “on our doorstep” etc… etc… I personally have been in the company of those who are thrilled at the idea that Jehovah is going to slaughter those who will not listen and toe the line.
•· Discourages people from educating themselves adequately, to the detriment of themselves and their families.
•· Constantly changes policies under the pretense that such changes are “new light” when, in fact, they are simply made up by a group of men with their own agenda who have no idea what the rank and file go through in trying to adhere to these policies. http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/i-do-not-answer-to-watchtower-stunning-gerrit-losch-declaration-revealed
•· Are prepared to take fractions of blood donated by “worldly” people (the same worldly people who are not worthy of associating with and will die horribly at Armageddon), but don’t donate to blood banks themselves.
•· Makes inconsistent and unsupported rulings that affect millions of lives around the world. One particularly tragic example being the situation in Malawi as compared with that in Mexico in the 1970s and 1980s when a Watchtower doctrinal principle that lead to the torture and death of 1000’s of Malawian Witnesses was excused for those in Mexico. Malawian Witnesses suffered unspeakable atrocities due to following the Watchtower’s policy forbidding them to hold a political card in a one party state. During the same period, Witnesses in Mexico were permitted to bribe officials for a Cartilla card in order to escape military service.
Anyway, I could go on and on, but it would be pointless as apparently I am “mentally diseased” in your eyes.
I can’t wipe out the memories of the anguish I suffered by being emotionally blackmailed into adhering to mind-controlling policies that make no sense, enforced by mere men who are so often not living up to those policies themselves, nor can I regain the 17 years I wasted as a JW, but at least I have the peace of mind of knowing that I’m done with the hypocrisy of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Kindly ensure that all my records are destroyed.
status offlineCacky
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Dec 18 14 1:43 PM
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That was really good.
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Very good or should I say outstanding!!! Reminds me of my letter I sent them back in 80's. I didn't get a response, you might not either, perhaps a visit from them to dumb you down further.
status offlinehalf banana
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Magenta, just how those "kingdom smiles" deceive... your summary of the hidden downside of being a JW is to the point and very powerful.
You never know but some of the committee may even read it and take note?
Well done for putting your life in order and letting the elders know the truth about the Watchtower religion!
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Magenta - I'd agree that your letter was forthcoming and you took a risk for stating such...knowing, that to do such could create further problems.
IMO, it's once we stop living in fear of what WTBTS and their drones do for protecting such evil - it's over for us at one level and then we often find ourselves doing battle against them because of; the reasons you wrote about.
I think you did a fine job for sharing your thoughts/feelings with the organization that may or may not listen to your concerns. At least you broke away from THEIR fear...and that's what helps keep any organization in control is for the members to live in fear. Damn! I hate that religion.
We all know to choose our battles carefully depending upon our circumstances. And we keep coming back here for support Big Grin
status offlinewomanbeyondtime
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Thanks! I wrote a letter too to the society and all of them.. Too long to put on but I included to tell them. "Now I will tell you this - you have broken my heart". Yes I was in for 42 years. I only try to say well I benefited in some ways. Maybe delivering talks and being able to talk to complete strangers. I don't know where I would be if I hadn't been able to run somewhere at the tender age of 10. I wrote a simple poem once. "It is a paradox that was saves you, in the end can destroy you." So I said this even before I was out. The J.W. don't own the Bible or God. Also if you can't reason with them Realize this "you can't reason with crazy people". Believe me I know because I have tried. It just makes you crazy. Now you are free, so untangle those knots!
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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Dec 20 14 5:18 PM
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Magenta, I usually say 'don't' send one of those disassociation letters but WOW! That is one great letter. Something about the way you worded it makes me think that the P.O. Might be compelled to read it in it's entirety. I hope so and I hope other elders will see it too. I think I'm not alone in thinking it would be a nice template for all of us for either a DA letter or just to answer any JW who might ask us why we left and are not coming back.
Well done!
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
status offlineJourney
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Dec 20 14 6:26 PM
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Magenta, that was great. Thank you for writing it.
status offlinesolitaire
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Wow brilliant letter!! Whether they read it to the end or not, it is still more than worthwhile to see that all in black and white..........if anyone ever has any inkling of feeing sorry that they left the organisation, your letter should put paid to the 'rosy glasses' nostalgia !!!
Thanks for sharing.......and good to see you about the place again smiley: smile
Sam xx
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlineGoingForth
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A pure pleasure to read Magenta. Great job!
I didn't write one myself--just felt they weren't worth the effort and time. But if I could have put together as good a letter as you did--I certainly would have written it! Who cares whether they read it or not it would just feel good to tell them off like that!!
“The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen nor even touched—
They must be felt with the heart.”
Helen Keller
status onlineAndriaSyxx
... yeehahhhhh Magenta! #10 [-]
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woohoo Margie! Way to go you!!!!
I am not a fan of sending that lot letters of any kind ... as invariably they use our own words against us, but as Sharon pointed out ... 'that is one great letter'.
You may get a response as in 'you're now disassociated' ..... but the hierarchy seem to forget that when you send a letter like that ... you've already disassociated yourself therefore they no longer have control! It will be interesting to see if you do get a reply ...... or if they just let you know via the grapevine that you're 'out'! Bet you're walking taller than you normally do!!!! wave
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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hello from africa
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offlinebreathagain
hello from africa
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Jul 24 12 7:02 AM
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Hello everyone. I am going to make this short.You cannot imagine how terrified i am while writing this.Basically a bad JW marriage led to my eyes being opened.Never in a million years did i ever think i would find my self here.What a revelation it has been. Still in the bad marriage and still in the truth i do not have courage to walk out.I desperately want to so that i can breath again.I need your support.Thanks again.
status offlinestrainedcourage
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Jul 24 12 7:13 AM
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Hello. Thanks for coming here and leaving this message for us. I am so sorry that you are terrified. You don't deserve to be. A lot of other people here have had to endure being terrified, too.
It's good to hear your eyes are opened. I'm just sorry about the painful experience you are in. You deserve the encouragement and support you need, so that you can do what you need to do. I hope you find it, in this place.
Even though your message is short, it says so much. Please continue to come here, because people are interested in helping.
Best wishes to you.
status offlinenonjwspouse
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Jul 24 12 10:35 AM
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Breathagain it is good you are coming here to this forum. You will receive wonderful support.
Life can throw huge curve balls, but then it settles again. Remember, nothing is forever. You will get through this.
Take care of yourself.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Breath Again...So happy seeing you post.
I'm one of the first too question some that post for the first time because they aren't serious about recovery. I'm still learning.
I've always wanted visiting your Country. At the same time, our governement has told us how unsafe it is.
I'm also one from the USA that try understand, when we're finished with politics/religion. We all love each other and want helping.
This is the issue of religious abuse. Because we've all dealt with the Borg...in most any country...it's the same. I'm just learning how this works, doing something for other countries. We really need see the end of political hatred - that want keeping us at odds....although we have families involved.
Again, I'm happy you posted. It takes courage,
LIN.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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This is howI gauge the serious...You come back and share.
You don't shame the rest of us for believing differntly...you aren't judging us according to how ....
It is time for time out...and I'll check in later with you.
status offlinecobaltcupcake
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Welcome Breathagain! I wish I could reach out and give you a big hug. We all understand the beginning stages of realizing you need to get out and the fear of what will happen.
One thing to remember is that what the Society has told you about "apostates" is not true. Just a quick read through some of the threads in this forum will convince you of that.
We want to help you. Please be strong and feel the love and support coming your way.Hug
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status offlineCacky
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Welcome to the board. I hope you continue to visit and learn more about the religion. Try to calm down, if you can't make changes in your life that you want and need to make, begin simply by imagining whatever changes you want. They say if you visualize what it is you want, your mind will subconsciously help you make decisions that will eventually lead you to where you want to be. Give yourself time to figure things out and you can gradually work your way out of your situation. I may not happen overnight, but it will happen and you can make it happen. I wish you well.
Cathy
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Hello there and welcome :-)
You need to take your own username advice, and breathe again!! There is a life after the religion, but at this time you must be so confused and unhappy and frightened........
I am sorry that your marriage has been a bad experience, but if it enables you to finally open your eyes and look honestly at the organisation, then it will inevitably be a positive thing!!
I also admire your bravery in coming here and posting, we all know how hard that first time is, but I am so glad that you did...........cos you will realise that you are no longer alone.........there are so many here who understand how you must be feeling, and can empathise with your feelings.....
I hope you come back and chat some more, believe me being able finally to say what you feel can be a huge step forward in beginning to take back control of your life!!
Hugs
Sam x
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offline2true
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Hi breatheagain to the forum.
One step at a time. It was a huge jump for me just to look on these apostate websites. I remember how terrified I was when I first posted on this forum. It was a real heart-pounding-sweaty-fingers moment. But I did it and over a year later I'm out!
You WILL find the courage to walk out. It just takes time.
You have taken a huge step by posting here. Well done.
"The more I advance into older age and the more imminent the end of life becomes, the more convinced I am that the most valuable thing any of us can leave behind is a moral legacy, and that the worth of that moral legacy will be determined by the principles for which we have stood, principles that can never be sacrificed or rationalized away in the interests of expediency. Those principles are . . . . . , integrity to truth, and compassionate concern for others, not as part of a favored system, but as individuals."
Raymond Franz 2004
status offlinenevermind
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Jul 27 12 10:56 PM
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Welcome to the board
Perhaps you would like to share your story with us, it can be very cathartic.
Good luck and stop by again
status offlinecathwa
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Aug 7 12 11:15 PM
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Welcome! Hope to hear more about you. You'll find lots of non - judgemental support here
status offlinepunkofnice
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Welcome Breathagain. You have taken a grand step in coming here. It shows you are prepared to take action.
Don't worry, no one will know who you are unless you reveal it.
For a start and for your own healing try this little technique; don't refer to it as 'the truth'........it isn't.
1. No one can be in 'the truth' because truth is a concept not something you can own or reside within.
2. The term 'the Truth' is a powerful example of loaded language. Loaded language are words that trick the brain into a thought pattern. In this case you are tricked into thinking that watchtower corporation are the one true way when they are not.
I hope you are able to get out of your awful marriage. I don't know how it works where you are as far as escaping. Don't give up.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
status offlineFreeForOnce
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Aug 10 12 11:22 AM
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Hi Breathe Again!
My thoughts are with you and I admire your bravery in reaching out under such circumstances.
~Free
status onlineAndriaSyxx
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breathagain wrote:
Hello everyone. I am going to make this short.You cannot imagine how terrified i am while writing this.Basically a bad JW marriage led to my eyes being opened.Never in a million years did i ever think i would find my self here.What a revelation it has been. Still in the bad marriage and still in the truth i do not have courage to walk out.I desperately want to so that i can breath again.I need your support.Thanks again.
Hi there Breathagain ... and welcome to the forum
It's always a bit scary coming into a forum like this for the first time ... specially one full of people who will instinctively know how you're feeling and what you've been through!!!! Next time you pop in it will be easier ... and easier again the next visit ...... until you get to the point it'll be like dropping into a friend's house having a chat ..... minus the spoken word
Great to have you with us!
"Walk your life without fear.
Walk strong."
~ advice from Rafaela of the Raramuri - Mexico ~
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I have some information for you are you still on this site? I just joined and red your post. Please let me know.
Randy
status onlineAndriaSyxx
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I am not sure you will get a reply Randy .....
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Jared's Tale of JW Life
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offlinejerryjax99
Jared's Tale of JW Life
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Hey everyone, I am new here to this website. It seems this is the only active one I have been able to find. Alas, I have enjoyed reading many of the stories and posts on here. It is very nice to see so many finding out the "truth" about the "truth"! Also, I am sorry if some things in my story are too graphic (if so please let me know so I can edit it)....I am going to explain my detailed family's story. I hope you all enjoy and benefit from my expereince!
So my story beings with me being rasied as a JW. I was born in Hartford, CT and have 5 siblings. I was the youngest in the family. I lived in CT until I was 6 and we moved to Pittsburgh, PA because my Dad was transferred for work. Now, at the time I hadn't realized the entire situation with my Mom and her feelings towards being a JW as I was too young but I will get into that later. We lived in PA until I was 16 and we moved to FL since my Dad was able to retire from work. I left FL at 25 to move to KS for my boyfriends' work.
My eldest sister had her son when she was young and was living on her own in VT while we lived in CT. When we moved to PA my father purchased her a house and her and my nephew moved along with us in PA. She was disphellowshipped at the time but we had very close contact with her and it we didn't treat her like we would have any other non-family DF'd JW. I never thought twice about it since she was my big sister who I was close to and we all loved. My sister would go to all the meetings with my nephew and a local sister would have weekly bible studies with her. She would never and i mean NEVER participate in field service. The sister studying with her would encourage her along with my Dad but my sister would just brush it off. Oddly enough it was never an issue for my family or the congregation, she was very liked by all. Now she is in her 30s and is a single mom working full-time to support herself and my nephew. She always wanted to have someone in her life to be with. She would try and see if there were any eligible brothers in the congregations around but none would be what she was looking for. Many brothers tried to go out with her but she would usually laugh it off with us stating "That'll never happen!". Now she would go online to find some brothers and my Dad was not very happy with her doing so. One time she met a brother online and he came over to the house for a dinner date. My Dad sadly drilled him with questions and comments regarding his current and future spiritual motives and pursuits. He even stated how courtship should occur quoting the Family Happiness book. So as we lived in PA my sister would live her life on her own doing what she pleased while slowly easing her way out of the JW life. Fast forward to our move to FL where my Dad purchases her another home for them to live in. Same situation in FL happens where she'll go to some meetings and all. Soon, she meets her future husband at work. She eventually gets married without anyone knowing until one day my Dad tries to stop by and see her at home one day during field service. We stumble upon her moving out of the house with my newly wed brother-in-law. My Dad then rushes to sell the house and bragging to all the congregation stating it was "a blessing in disguise!". I always kept in touch with my sister and still do to this day. She is happily married with now 5 children (4 new ones since being married!) She still lives in FL and is a full-time mom and loves it. She still has some guilt as to what happened but it never gets her down. She also came out to me as being Bisexual! We both had a good laugh at that and are now closer than ever.
status offlineCacky
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Hello and welcome to the board. Thanks for sharing your story. I'm guessing your sister got reinstated since she was being studied with and you mentioned that she never went out in service, since if she was still df'd, there would be no question of her not going out in service. I'm looking forward to learning more about you and your experiences.
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Hi there upside down Jerry and welcome .................................
I'm really glad that you have maintained a close relationship with your sister. I can remember my mum telling me that my younger sister (by 12 months) didn't want anything to do with me when I told my family that I didn't want to be part of their religion anymore ..... and my sister was standing behind my mum, shaking her head with tears streaming down her face. I was nearly 19 at the time and she was nearly 18. 30 odd years later my sister no longer goes to meetings and we're closer than ever!
Your sister has certainly been busy having four kids after getting married! Good for her! I bet she's really happy too ....... makes all of the topsy-turvy times less important doesn't it. I hope you enjoy your visits in here.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Hello there Jerry and welcome :-)
Sounds like your sister is a great person who also has her head screwed on with regards to the jw's!! The fact that she studiously managed to avoid the dreaded field service gives her kudos in my book lol!!
I am glad that you are still close....this religion breaks up far too many families!!
Good to have you here, and I look forward to hearing more of your experiences smiley: smile
Sam x
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Thanks everyone. I could of added more but the character limit stopped my story, haha. My sister was reinstated when we moved to PA. So she just slowly eased out and was never DF'd even in FL. The elders tried meeting with her but she always just refused. My Dad did have the local congregation send JWs to her house to talk with her but she always stood her ground. Last time she stated to them "Why would I want to be a JW when they won't support my gay brothers and son?" They left her doorstep dumbfounded! Well, I will update my story when I have some time with the next sibling my 2nd sister. Look forward to it!
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Slowly easing out or fading ... is often the best way to go and far less hassle. Your sister has sense to keep away from elder meetings ...... they're usually a whitewashed witch hunt to begin with anyway! She sounds like my kind of ex-jdub ...... honest, to the point and not someone to trifle with!
I'll be back for the next installment of your story Jared!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Hey everyone! I have taken too long to update my story. Here is the life behind my 2nd sister.
She was always close to me and my other siblings when we were very young however there was always an awkward tension between her and my parents. She has some disabilities with her vision and cerebral palsy which requires her to use crutches to walk. My parents took more than needed help while she was growing up so that she could be physically able to do the most she could. My sister had some issues with severe jealously with my older sister and wanted 110% attention for herself among my family and JWs. My parents were quickly finished with trying to give in to her every need yet the JW friends were always there to help her. While we were living in PA she changed congregations and met a sister there and moved in with her. Soon after she and that sister were both DF'd due to being lesbians living together with a bad lifestyle. She and her "girlfriend" would attend some assemblies and my Dad would try to reach out to her but to no avail. One assembly she had another sister in her congregation come and talk to myself and my brothers to get information and pictures of us and about what we've been up to. Me and my brothers told my Dad and our PO (who also lived in the Assembly Hall with his wife) and they immediately had this sister who approached us escorted out of the assembly hall! (We found this freaking hilarious; I mean a JW kicked out of the assembly hall?!) Clearly, it was for her associating with my DF'd sister and lover but it was a first time for us seeing that. Afterwards, my one brother ran away from home after work and moved in with my sister. This was a crazy ordeal with my parents and it involved the police, lawyers, and even psychiatrist visits for all of us. A few months later he came back home after some serious convincing by my parents. Later, my sister's girlfriend died of cancer and she moved out of state. She was married now to her first husband and then shortly was divorced due to him abusing her. She is now married to her second husband and living with him as an active Mormon and seems very happy and safe. (Yes, it was a phase for her being a lesbian).
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Hey Jerry good to hear from you :-)
Wow....your poor sister certainly went through the mill!!! I think sometimes the labels we put upon people are unnecessary.....of course the jw's love nothing more than being able to label people......sounds like your sister found love and compassion from another person....whether she was another woman or not probably was irrelevant to your sister.....how awful it must have been for her to lose her to cancer!!
And then to be abused by her first husband..........I am so glad that she seems to have found someone who loves her and she them.......not sure about the mormon element of their lives, but hey we are always wanting people to be allowed their own choices, and that is hers!! smiley: smile
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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Thanks solitaire! I know it was for her but sadly even today we don't have much a relationship or closeness due to not being able to be around each other and myself conflicting with what I saw growing up and heard from my family. But as time passes I am sure I can build on it.
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Now I have the 2 eldest siblings (the 2 sisters) it is now time for the eldest brother!
He was your typical big brother who would always pick on me and my brothers but always found a way to get back somehow. We are always close and could have fun with him anytime. He is very adventurous by nature and would go out when and where he wanted with NO regrets. When we were in PA he was living with us and started to upset my Dad by his actions and cleanliness of his room (severe lack thereof)! So he would be threatened to be kicked out of the house if he didn't clean up and shape up his life according to JW standards. Meanwhile, his JW friend's had taken him along with a group to the ski lodge for some winter fun and he was introduced to a girl there. They started dating soon after and he pulled a fast one on our and her family. They decided it would be nice to visit our relatives who live in CT so they hopped a flight and stayed there without ANYONE knowing. My Dad and hers were furious at him! They came back and had a lot of explaining to do but no "harm done" (as per JW lifestyle). Fast forward about a year later they would wind up getting married. She was nice and they had fun together but shortly realized they were better off friends rather than husband and wife. A divorce followed suit and again the father's were very upset and that lead to her being DF'd among her other "sins" of smoking pot and being bisexual. So my brother didn't get any repercussions for the divorce as the fault was all out on her. My brother then moved around the US for work and was invited to go international with a job offer. He now has not been living in the US for years and LOVES the new places and cultural changes he has been able to make. He met a girl overseas and is now happily married with her. We are very close still and chat often and visits the US when he has time for vacation. So he was truly faded out very successfully and maintains a great relationship with my parents despite clearly not wanting anything to do with JW life. He is literally the only sibling who has done this in our family; I always tell him how lucky he is.
status onlineAndriaSyxx
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Wow Jerry .... have just read up on the latest parts of your story. Your bro IS rather lucky isn't he! Makes you wonder if moving to another country isn't so bad after all ... but it's a long way to go just to fade. I was more in the 'rip the bandaid off quickly' brigade with my folks!!!
Sometimes families ... regardless of their religious backgrounds or not ... just drift apart. I've seen it happen with my own family. I have an older bro who is still a jdub and doesn't usually talk to me unless he has to. I have two younger bros ... one of whom I haven't spoken to for over 14 years until our mother's recent death (yep ... me who made the first move) and the youngest of the two younger bros who talks to me one day and ignores me the next. I'm fine with that and used to it ..... but I DO have the BEST sister in the entire universe! You are welcome to share her with me if you like!!!
To me ... the WBTS religion has done nothing but bring misery to my family. My parents blindly followed along and have paid in various ways for being slightly more liberal minded than other diehard jdubs. My older bro follows along because he's too scared not to ... he has that 'maybe just maybe they're right about the end of the world' thing in the back of his head I think. I was the first one to be footloose and fancy free ...... and even though I lost my family for a few months to begin with, I doggedly kept on pushing my face into theirs, kept saying I was the same old me minus THEIR religion ...... and I got them back. Although I sometimes wonder if my siblings and I have ever really had our real parents ... as they've been dictated to and indoctrinated for so long that even they forgot who they were!
Your bro may be lucky Jerry ... but so are YOU! You are free to be the Jerry YOU want to be ..... some people stuck in the borg NEVER have that type of freedom, no matter how much they yearn for it!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinejack07
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Hi kids .... just dropped by to say hi :)
World: “We have to go to war to preserve our liberty and security, but we will do everything possible to only fight the enemy and leave innocent civilians unharmed. If we capture an enemy, we will treat him humanely. After all, we are trying to be civilized.”
JW: “If you don’t buy our books, our God will smash your guts all over the sidewalk. And he’ll smash the guts of that baby you’re holding too. Buy our books.”
http://www.facebook.com/Jack07
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second visit
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offlinexring33.theswissriflesd...
second visit
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Nov 7 14 4:59 PM
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today a lady and a man came to the door from the JW's. this was a second visit. what would be a polite way to send them on their way when they make a third visit? (short of breaking out the shotgun)
Every time a bird craps on my car, I eat a scrambled egg on the front porch...just to let them know what I am capable of.
status offlineCacky
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Tell them you want them to put you on the "do not call" list.
status offlineKBG
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I stole this from another thread.
When they talk about all the evil in the world, you respond:
“Yes, I agree. Have you heard about the astronomic amounts the courts are awarding the claimants in Watchtower abuse cases, I think this is the height of religious hypocrisy. There was just 15 million the California courts ordered them to pay for protecting pedophiles over children. What do you think of that?"
status offlineJourney
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Nov 7 14 6:10 PM
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Cathy, does that work nowadays? Back when I was going door to door, the only people who got on the do not call list were people we were afraid of or considered dangerous for some reason. Now all it takes is a request?
If that is so, I think I will write the KH that services my town and tell them to put us on the DNC list and never to bother us again, ever.
Twice we've had someone come by. About once a year. LOL That's once a year too much. It's easy to shut someone who's reading from the bible to you just by saying, "We're shunned." Or "My wife's an apostate." LOL But then a year or two goes by, and there they are again.
I should be grateful, it used to be every month, years ago.
status offlinepunkofnice
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Nov 8 14 4:35 AM
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'allo, allo, allo xring. Good to meet you guv.
''Please put me on your 'do not call list'. Nothing personal.'' Smile after making sure they note it.
They should have a note of the properties not to call on. Hopefully, they'll leave you alone for about a year.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
status offlineCacky
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I think it works. At least they are supposed to respect your request and do that. Even so, as you know. elders periodically take on the do not calls to see if they still want to be do not calls, or if they moved.
status offlinexring33.theswissriflesd...
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these are good ideas....I have also thought of saying I know enough about Rutherford and C.T. Russell that I want nothing to do with the JW's
Every time a bird craps on my car, I eat a scrambled egg on the front porch...just to let them know what I am capable of.
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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Nov 8 14 8:03 PM
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Welcome to the boards xring33!
My suggestion (for entertainment value) let them talk and while they're talking just say 'I was disfellowshipped for apostacy' and I'll bet they won't even finish their sentence and will turn and walk away...noting in their little record keeper to NEVER call at your evil address again.
They are particularly brainwashed in this regard to really, really fear apostates. It's quite mind boggling.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
status offlinesolitaire
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'I was disfellowshipped for apostacy'
Yep I'm with Sharon.............that'll do it every time smiley: smile
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status onlineAndriaSyxx
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xring33 wrote:
today a lady and a man came to the door from the JW's. this was a second visit. what would be a polite way to send them on their way when they make a third visit? (short of breaking out the shotgun)
There is no polite way. Just tell them you're not interested in their religion and ask them not to come back. The 'do not call' list may work ... but they will deny they have one. If that's the case ... just tell them you KNOW they have one, you want to be on it ... or you'll let the Police know they're harassing you. Sadly they will see your lack of interest as a sign they are on the right path to salvation!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Welcome Xring.
I'm really behind on this site but smiley: glasses we all just continue the fight and share.
In the past I've posted signs - not always been nice when they might show up. I'm thinking that as of today I'm just simply one they know not to waste their time nor mine with making a call. I've learned to be more patient but I'll not listen to their spin. I have enough of that with fence-rider living next door.
As someone already mentioned, just tell them to never come back to your home because you're not interested in their religion. In the end, none of us really need explaining the "Why" about it. It's none of their business.
Because I live where I do and the neighbors try understanding my past with the JW - whenever they should see them coming, they give me the heads up. I think that funny.
Last time the "Pioneer" ladies came by...it wasn't pretty because I simply told her the neighbors were gone...don't waste your time and I'm most certainly not interested.
Well, because of her attitude- she began to tell me how I was being judgmental! Really! You are doing your duty to your precious Jehovah [forgot it was the WTBTS] and yet you are judging me for saying I'm df and the neighbors aren't home?
This lady told me she's been doing "Jehovah's Work" for 40 yearssmiley: eyes That's a scary thought!
Missy Rhonda, sometimes I do think there is no way for being nice to those people but because I've been through this so many years and the KH is right around the corner from me...I'm grateful they don't come.
With living in a smaller community and my other JW sibling lives her - I've earned my wings with being known as a "Do Not" come to my home. Heck, I'm rather proud that after all these years they won't bother mesmiley: laugh
Last Edited By: Linda Nov 16 14 1:16 AM. Edited 2 times.
status offlinescottfreex20
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I read all the posted comments and do not agree with any of them. What the sense of shunning them when they come knocking, or closing the door in their faces? Just remember, you were just like them before you decided to leave. Now that you have left you should share with them the real view of Christ Jesus. In other words, witness to the witness. Remember, they have a soul just like you and I and if you can help them see the light they might follow in you're footstep and thank you dearly. I don't know if you joined a church, but if you did, share with them what you have learned about real love that's not conditional. Trust me on this one, I'm a writer and have a chapter in one of my books about what to do when they come knocking. One of the first thing you can do is get a real Bible and don't use the word Jehovah. Make sure you carry the conversation and if they try to innterupt you be you're kind self and ask them to allow you to finish. This won't work with everyone, but it does work. The idea is to get them to think!!!! And when they leave you would have left them with something to think about.
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I read you're post again and realized that you were nerer a Jehovah's Witness, is this true? I assumed that you were a ex-witness. But still if you know the Lord perhaps you can help save their soul the next time they come knocking.
status offlinehalf banana
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Hi Scottfree thanks for visiting here. I entirely agree with you that it’s a missed opportunity not to speak to JWs when they call.
Since I wasted so much of my life on their delusional beliefs, I feel happy to inform them about the realities which I have learned after the time of leaving the Watchtower.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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Hi, xring. If you're going to debate JWs at your door, be prepared. JWs are VERY good at pulling out 'proof texts' that can leave you reeling. "Crisis of Conscience" by Raymond Franz (former GB member) is a good source for scriptures that debunk the JW teachings. Mark those places ahead of time in your Bible so you're ready when the JWs come calling.
If you don't want to bother with JWs at all (and I don't blame you!) just tell them you're a Satanist or DF'd. I bet they'll run screaming for the hills, afraid your demons will jump off onto them.image
status offlinexring33.theswissriflesd...
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Sorry I haven't checked back in some time.....cold weather keeps the door to door away
Every time a bird craps on my car, I eat a scrambled egg on the front porch...just to let them know what I am capable of.
status onlineAndriaSyxx
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Scott .... it's a good thing that we're not jdubs in here as we don't expect everyone to agree with what we have to say!
As for your comments about shunning the jdubs when they come to the door ... to me it's not shunning so much as keeping my own sanity. You cannot witness to a witness. They have their set topics to discuss and as a former jdub yourself ... you would be aware that no amount of scripture swapping from a non-jdub at the door will make a jdub think they're on the wrong path in life. Perhaps you have forgotten that there is only ONE truth ... and the WBTS have that in their hot little hands ...
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineJoe Magarac
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The way that works for me and has the virtue of honesty when I do it:
I tell them I was DFed for apostasy in 1976 and offer to tell them all about it.
I see their backs so quick.
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Haha ... nice one Joe!
I told one a few months back that I didn't like the way his religious mates shunned their own family members ... and instead of engaging me in a conversation, he said 'oh well ... I must go' and almost ran down my driveway! Perhaps he sensed an argument coming up that he knew he couldn't win!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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The "do not call" list is great, but start checking your mailbox if you go this route. They'll start writing you letters.
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
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scottfreex20 wrote:
I read all the posted comments and do not agree with any of them. What the sense of shunning them when they come knocking, or closing the door in their faces? Just remember, you were just like them before you decided to leave. Now that you have left you should share with them the real view of Christ Jesus. In other words, witness to the witness. Remember, they have a soul just like you and I and if you can help them see the light they might follow in you're footstep and thank you dearly. I don't know if you joined a church, but if you did, share with them what you have learned about real love that's not conditional. Trust me on this one, I'm a writer and have a chapter in one of my books about what to do when they come knocking. One of the first thing you can do is get a real Bible and don't use the word Jehovah. Make sure you carry the conversation and if they try to innterupt you be you're kind self and ask them to allow you to finish. This won't work with everyone, but it does work. The idea is to get them to think!!!! And when they leave you would have left them with something to think about.
I do not agree with this Scott. Of course I respect your opinion and I would hope you respect mine and others.I agree totally with AndriaSyxx. Why? For a start I do not believe in Jesus, god or any magic man in the sky and neither do many people. So witnessing about a real Jesus for me at least, would be ridiculous because there isn't and never was one....all a myth. If a person doesn't want to engage the JWs then why bother with debates or rhetoric? Just send them away politely.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
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I can't believe after 42 years in the org I am here viewed as an apostate etc. I still get a shock. It is so ridiculous and unfair. I tried to be nice for years and say something of value It was always taken the wrong way. the last time a "brother" (they are not my brothers) came in and told me he would help in any way to get me back in. I said I could never do that as I now have a different understanding of things. I said that I believe now that we have something separate from our bodies He then gave me a mag on talking to the dead - quite a jump. I am sure now that the entire town thinks I do that and I have not had any calls since then. Just in case you are wondering I don't talk to the dead. At any rate I am sure my name is once again being slandered from here to New York and beyond. They are incapable of pondering the deeper aspects of metaphysics. At any rate I will not talk to them again as they will not listen anyway and if they did they would misconstrue anything. and they are just plain mean!
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womanbeyondtime- your story had me scratching my head. Believing that humans have some immortal component is quite differant from talking to the dead. I know lots and lots of people who believe in some form of afterlife who do NOT try to talk to the dead. Leave it to a JW to make that leap.
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WBT ....... it makes the mind boggle that you can be away from the borg for so long and STILL they bang on about former jdubs like yourself, me and many others in here as being 'apostates'. We ARE apostates ... well at least I am. And I'm proud of it. The WBTS has such a different take on the world apostate .... it's a pity they didn't just read the bloody dictionary meaning instead of conjuring up all kinds of evil interpretations of their own!
It's a good thing you don't have any door bangers ....... they only time they seem to rock up on anyone's door these days is if there's a campaign and they have to letterbox drop their appalling literature ........... or they've had one of those 'special needs' talks .... when they get a rocket up their asses to get out and about to spread 'the good news'.
We are all allowed and FREE to believe in what we wish ...... it's just a shame the average jdub doesn't realise that they are pushing their belief system onto others every time they bang on the door, judge others and then get upset when not listened to.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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New Watchtower Article
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It's definitely paving the way for more articles with more radical changes. Read it if you can stomach it, and tell me what you think.
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20150315/clear-simple-teaching-bible-truth/
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
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Eeuw.. yech. I made it through about 3 sentences without gagging on the reasoning gaps. I was raised on the same stuff.. it looks and reads the same to me as the 1960's and 1970's WT's that I was raised on.
Tim
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Seems they don't have anywhere to go theologically so they're backing away from it and focusing more on telling JWs how to live their lies.
I once read an article which suggested that the JWs no longer have someone like Fred Franz who can create an overarching framework for their belief system.
They have been subsisting on the framework established by Rutherford and Franz but all of that work had an expiration date.
According to Rutherford, the gathering of the anointed was generally completed in 1935 (millions now living will never die!) and Franz suggested strongly that the world might have ended in '75.
But let's face it, it's 2015. The teachings that once inspired urgency are so stale now they're starting to stink.
For earlier generations of JWs 1914 would have been like September 11, 2001 is to us.
It would have been in the past but recent enough to have been experienced by many people and for it's shockwave to be felt directly in current events.
But from our perspective, 1914 is truly remote. The vast majority of people alive today were born after that and took a couple decades to enter adulthood.
It's almost silly to keep drawing attention to the fact that you said the world would 'soon' end almost a century ago and it's still here.
So they might start downplaying the prophetic aspects because they don't have a way to make it relevant again.
For current JWs the message is going to get a lot more "simple": "do everything we say the Bible is telling you to do and don't question",
They'll be appealing more to emotion instead bothering to concoct convoluted prophetic interpretations of scripture.
That's what I got from it anyway.
Third, consider some of our recent refinements in understanding. For example, our clarified understanding of “the faithful and discreet slave,” published in the July 15, 2013, Watchtower, thrilled us.
I found that passage fascinating,
It "thrilled us" when we decided that only we, the Governing Body, are the "faithful slave" not all of the anointed.
Of course you'd be thrilled. Even though the larger anointed were irrelevant and senile (according to the GB's view of memorial partakers) it was still a power grab.
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
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Auth I was writing my post without seeing yours and I completely agree with you. They now have the task of creating a vision for the sheeple which doesn't depend on the 1914 theological fixture. They are now saying that simple interpretation of the Bible is the thing... but when will they realise that the Bible is simply men's word?
“... our clarified understanding of “the faithful and discreet slave,” published in the July 15, 2013, Watchtower, thrilled us.”
Aren’t you just thrilled to learn to new “refinement” on the understanding the new meaning of ‘fds’? How the governing body have demoted the so called remnant and have awarded themselves the greatest human accolade possible: total control of heavenly interests on Earth... (Yes but we’re worth it!!!!) Absolute mind control of the abject followers, reaching into every part of their lives, including the demand to keep them lowly and uneducated. And what reward does the GB get for all their hard work indoctrinating the flock? They have awarded themselves a first class ticket to heavenly glory. Aren’t you just thrilled to learn this?
The language they use is nauseating because it is controlling: “What a delight it is to learn these truths and to teach them to new ones.” (Watchtower quote)
It is categorically not a delight; it is humiliating, embarrassing and a terrible waste of human time and effort to spend your life listening to the GB and fostering their delusion.
The Watchtower is vomit-worthy mind control for the willingly blind and brain-dead JW slaves........like we used to be!
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
Last Edited By: half banana Jan 9 15 1:34 AM. Edited 2 times.
status offlinepunkofnice
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auth wrote:
Seems they don't have anywhere to go theologically so they're backing away from it and focusing more on telling JWs how to live their lies.
Yup. The power is in the hands of those rich enough to buy it! The GB are mind controlling overlords who know exactly what they're doing.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
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@punkofnice
Yeah. Like any other organization they're trying to change to remain relevant.
They used to bash the internet ceaselessly, now they're encouraging JWs to use it by putting so much content on the web,
Ultimately, the internet wasn't going anywhere and even the most persnickety JW could have had various reasons to use it (job, school, etc).
So the GB got wise. Rather than surrender the internet to 'apostate' voices, they started to improve and heavily promote their official sites.
Are we to believe that the GB isn't looking at the state of it's doctrine in 2015 and wondering where to take it?
The religion does intend to be stick around even if it means tweaking a few ingredients of the snake-oil,
@halfbanana
We were saying the same thing to almost an uncanny degree lol.
Maybe it's a function of how transparent the GB's tactics have become...or how amazingly perceptive we are.
I would personally prefer the latter so let's go with that even if it means granting the GB a modicum of competence. :P
Time is refuting their assertions. Was it Francis Bacon who said, "Truth is the daughter of time, not of authority"?
Myself, and a few famous others including Prince William and Kate Middleton who are now parents, were not even born before the '75 end date.
We shouldn't even exist if JW prophecy were accurate. At least one member of the GB is certainly a post-1935 anointed Christian, an exception by their own theology.
Heck, someone BORN in 1935 will be 80 this year. Therefore any GB member under ~90 is highly unlikely to have been born and dunked before '35.
Their endless droning about "the time of the end" is just becoming extremely irrelevant to any thinking person who has some facts to go on.
No wonder there were subtle changes to some reprinted books (IIRC revelations grand climax at hand) to tweak passages that implied things that would be nonsensical .
The whole religion is an anachronism that needs to be kicked back to the late-19th to early-20th century where it belongs.
The people who established the modern JW religion did not expect to be alive in 2015 just as I'm not worrying about 2115.
Therefore they did not lay a foundation for it to continue into the 21st century. In fact, they set timed bombs in their doctrine and eschatology.
JWs have the problem of wanting to appeal to their heritage so that it doesn't look like such a young religion but the teachings of the founders are increasingly embarrassing.
We saw recently that they tried to distance themselves from Ol' Taze by claiming that Christ did not choose the Jehovah's Witnesses (excuse, they weren't witnesses till 1931) until 1919.
So the religion is literally creaking and warping under the weight of it's own error and the GB's only recourse is to divert witnesses' attention (ie, "simplify" doctrine) while tightening ship with regard to shunning and 'apostasy'.
Unfortunately, those of us who've caught on are, for the most part, the ones who have already left.
The 'brotherhood' might be more important to most witnesses than doctrinal details so I think that less focus on "deep" bul...er, truths, will be fine for them.
Religion, nationalism, family relations, team sports etc. seem to the serve human need for one thing, a feeling of connection and belonging.
It has been subverted and used for a lot of evil throughout history. Maybe we'll have a "new world" when we learn to satisfy that need consistently in harmonious and non-destructive ways.
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
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The world of the GB is eerily like the world of 1984 by George Orwell. If the GB tells the R&F to ignore something or that something never happened (the 1975 debacle) the R&F meekly go along with it. The official index of past WT and Awake articles deliberately leave out articles that would be embarrassing now (the anti-Semitic rants of the 30s, the articles banning organ transplants in the 60s). With all the changes they've made in the last few years, I'm disappointed (but not surprised) that more JWs haven't seemed to be questioning what's up. It's like they can't see they're being played for fools, or they don't WANT to see.
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You all have excellent points, couldn't have put it better myself. They're dumbing it down just enough to where it's easier for people to understand, but still complicated enough for them to change their teachings so subtly, that they don't even notice it. Unless you are a freethinker by nature, you're just going to go along with it, and unfortunately that's how most people that join the JWs now are. They're banking on people's' gullibility.
My brother and I were talking to my 74 year old grandmother the other day about the way things are changing and she hates it. She's confused, doesn't understand most of what she reads, but she loves Jehovah so much, and she's been a JW her entire life, so she's just goes along with it. Not that I blame her, if I were that age I might just go along too. Easier that way. But that's what the GB is counting on. This latest, dumbed down, technology ridden generation coming into the religion. All to gain more followers, aka more money to pay off their lawsuits and build newer and better facilities.
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
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Blech! That was cringe worthy diatribe WonderfulOne ............ I'm still cringing!
But I did read through it. How on earth did I ever understand any of it all those years ago? The constant contradictions and interpretations are mind boggling. One thing I did pick up is this bit ....
Rather, he knew that they seemed to be children compared to the intellectual and highly educated ones in the land, who were wise in their own eyes. More important, Jesus taught his followers to be like children, remaining humble and teachable
I think that sums it up beautifully! Doesn't matter if you've been a serving member for 'decades' or someone new .... the less intellectual and high educated you are ...... the more humble and obedient you will be!
My dad is in the same boat as your Grandmother WonderfulYou ................. he is now 78 and very jaded with the hierarchy of his local hall as they never bother to explain anything. Like I told him though ... they don't have any answers TO explain anything with! They are far less intelligent than him .... and he is far too intelligent for them. The way they get around it ... is to belittle and dumb him down. He believes in his religion because it has become a habit. Perhaps your Grandmother is in the same boat!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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7693631566d5e35423b5bf1a47500e7e6c66070c
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Because I do religious and political studies - it does make one crazy at times.
I'm finished with religion because I'm done trying to figure out how to make others happy when I don't agree with their god.
I'm in the midst of Jehovah Witness and the Mormon. Not an easy thing - but thanks to the support I get here, it's easier.
When I say, "There is no separation of Church and State." The more I do research, the more it seems true.
Auth - "I"ll just wait for Armageddon." Meantime Fence rider is taking a class because she isn't waiting for such...she just thinks and preaches her religious bullshit.
Who ever you are on this site...I've tried reading about your god. I'm not really interested in your god... I'm just interested in helping as you help me.
We can often disagree upon a god and/or political viewpoints.
This is how religion has had such a negative impact on my life and another reason we are here.
Love, Lin
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I read that and hear....'we believe you people are idiots and we got you to believe yourself you are idiots so we'll continue making changes and you won't even know it because you are idiots'.
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Matitalica you've summed it up perfectly.
Rhon, my grandmother and your dad seem to think very similarly, although I think my grandmother does it asmore than just habit. She still sincerely believes it. She's also got a touch of dementia so that doesn't help. Both my grandma and grandpa have been "in" since birth, so with them it's sort of a "leave well enough alone" situation. I mean, can you imagine living that long and finding out that everything you've worked for your entire life was a lie? They'd be crushed. It's hard to wrap one's mind around, perhaps your dad feels the same way.
Auth, that made me lol.
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
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The problem with giving controversial information to a JW has little to do with the content, for example whether it’s about child abuse or doctrine. It is always interpreted as an attack. Although gently chipping away at Watchtower nonsense by loved ones is the obvious thing to do. To inform a JW that they have it wrong, is a scary thing for them, it attempts to puncture their security cocoon, it destroys their world view and their perceived place in it...it would be very unsettling for them to enter the real world which does not come with offers of divine bliss.
The JW has a complete (but deluded) certainty that by rigid loyalty to the Watchtower belief system, it will deliver paradise. For a dyed in the wool Jdub, to give up this hope would be like ditching a life jacket after having fallen into a stormy sea.
JWs have put all their eggs into one basket controlled by the JW org, perhaps the answer from our perspective lies in giving support to the emotional and psychological drives of the individual to help them cope with the real world ...easier said than done?
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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auth wrote:
Maybe we'll have a "new world" when we learn to satisfy that need consistently in harmonious and non-destructive ways.
That will be the day when human kind grows up and realises that superstition, religion and other repressive control systems have been replaced by prioritising human needs, by having transparent democracy and scientifically evaluated knowledge. I think this "new world" has still a few years yet to wait...but we hope!
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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Oh my God! no pun intended -Stuff it
This is what I'm dealing with as of late. I've had enough of the JW bullshit to last me a life time and that's coming to a fast end because I'm getting old and am tired of the bullshit.
We are in recovery; might not always agree but we keep putting one foot in front of the other.
How do I ever thank you precious people for saying how much you help me?Balloons You help me when you continue posting and sharing.
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Additionally, it has been found that some of the older explanations about types and antitypes are unduly difficult for many to grasp. The details of such teachings
—who pictures whom and why—can be hard to keep straight, to remember, and to apply. Of even greater concern, though, is that the moral and practical lessons of the Bible accounts under examination may be obscured or lost in all the scrutiny of possible antitypical fulfillments. Thus, we find that our literature today focuses more on the simple, practical lessons about faith, endurance, godly devotion, and other vital qualities that we learn about from Bible accounts.
You people are so stupid so we had to dumb down the lessons!
First, there is the simplified edition of The Watchtower. * This edition has proved to be, in effect, a loving gift to those who struggle with language or find reading a challenge. Family heads are finding that their children are now more involved in the study of this journal, the main channel of our spiritual feeding program. Many have written touching expressions of heartfelt appreciation. A sister wrote that she had held back from commenting at the Watchtower Study. “I was a wallflower,” she said. Not anymore! After making use of the simplified edition, she wrote: “I now comment more than once, and the fear is gone! I thank Jehovah and you.”
So does this mean the same five people won't be doing all the commenting at meetings now?
Or instead of re-reading the entire paragraph, people will finally be able to summarize the main ideas?
I remember in my congregation there were some people that when mainge a comment, they would basically re-read the entire paragraph again.smiley: sick
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Oh yeah there were those in my cong as well. Changed like two words, added an occasional "um" or "uh" in there.
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Oh yeah there were those in my cong as well. Changed like two words, added an
occasional "um" or "uh" in there.
LOL, there was one brother that would go on and on and on, and then, when he couldn't come up with a witty conclusion
he'd go - "Oh! I lost my thought!" *facepalm*
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So does this mean the same five people won't be doing all the commenting at meetings now?
Or instead of re-reading the entire paragraph, people will finally be able to summarize the main ideas?
smiley: rollsmiley: rollsmiley: rollsmiley: rollsmiley: roll
Dumbing it down? How much dumber can they make it??? Ah well... I remember when sitting through the "Book Study" on Tuesday night in someone's home... with the "Babylon has Fallen! God's Kingdom Rules!" book and the "Then is Finished the Mystery of God" it took all the self control I could muster to keep from rolling my eyes to the back of my head. Every Single Scripture (or so it seemed) had to have a modern day "fulfillment." I would be thinking "Who the hell is making this shit up???" That was when I was Pioneering, so even though I had pretty strong faith at the time, it was really hard for me to swallow it all. I just couldn't see how every word, every sentence, every Bible character had to have a modern day fulfillment.
I think the writing staff back then, or at least Fred Franz was mentally masturbating all the time. Love-smiley-086
And then this:
Many have written touching expressions of heartfelt appreciation.
Yes, everyone is having a full blown orgasms. All the brothers are hiding the wet stains in their pants after the Watchtower, and all the sisters are fanning themselves and trying to hide their sexual flush.
“The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn but to unlearn.” ~ Gloria Steinem
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OMG, Hammer - or is that Tim?
There's not much I could add to what you said - I'm just glad someone spoke the way it was/is.
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status offlineCee Cee
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Sorry guys, I just couldn't bring myself to slog through the whole thing. The doctrines may change but one thing that never does is how many times in any WT article it manages to pat itself on the back. [YUK!]
There's one change I would have appreciated when I was 'in' and that's having the Q listed before the paragraph. That means not having to read the whole boring thing--just getting as far as the first possible answer. That might have made it possible to have a life--if I'd been allowed to. (As it was, I joined those who just underline the first sentence of every paragraph and make it look like I'd studied hard.)
Cee Cee
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nobodyknows wrote:
Rhon, my grandmother and your dad seem to think very similarly, although I think my grandmother does it asmore than just habit. She still sincerely believes it. She's also got a touch of dementia so that doesn't help. Both my grandma and grandpa have been "in" since birth, so with them it's sort of a "leave well enough alone" situation. I mean, can you imagine living that long and finding out that everything you've worked for your entire life was a lie? They'd be crushed. It's hard to wrap one's mind around, perhaps your dad feels the same way.
Sad isn't it .................
I just found out two days back that my dad HAS gone to a bloody meeting. I am NOT happy about that. I don't know the circumstances ... yet ... (my sister will fill me in when we catch up next) ............ but it occurred a few days after bloody elder types rocked up at his house. I can feel the steam rising in my head! smiley: mad
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Planting seeds of doubt, one news article at a time.
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offlinenobodyknows
Planting seeds of doubt, one news article at a time.
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My younger brother and I are slowly planting little seeds of doubt with my parents lately, especially my mom. It's interesting because at first she doesn't want to hear it, but she's a curious woman by nature so she ends up listening anyway. (Her being curious has prevented me from hiding things as a teenager lol, I hope that quality works to our advantage soon.) My bro and I just shared some news stories with her about the molestation cases. She doesn't exactly know what to think, just says she'll have to do her own research. BUT THAT'S SOMETHING! Please do research! We want her to find out TTATT! It's going to take some time but at some point I think they'll come around. My dad is more shut off about it, he's a 3rd generation so he's extremely indoctrinated. Luckily he's full of love and he's also smart, so there's still hope. I can't give up hope that they'll come around. That's what keeps me going.
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
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Also, my bad for clogging up the feed. I haven't posted in a while!
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
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Your mom at least listened, and that's a good thing. With any luck, she will do research on her own. My mom (I love her dearly and in most ways she's wonderful) won't listen to anything bad about the WTBTS. The molestation cases are all lies put out there by us wicked apostates. image Makes me want to pull my hair out. But you never know. Something, someday, may flip the switch in her mind and the light will come on. Best of luck to you with your own parents.
status onlineAndriaSyxx
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No need to apologise for anything at all WonderfulYou ....................... the more posts the merrier!
I'm glad your mum is thinking for herself. By simply saying that she likes to do her own research ... is a sign that she still does have some free will lurking about in her gorgeous little head! I'm all for kids giving their parents a gentle prod in the right direction. Here's hoping she reads the research with an open mind and not the indoctrinated 'oh yes but that's apostates talking' mind!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Let's hope we flip those switches, sg.
Rhon, my mom is back and forth. I think she goes too far then gets scared and reverts back. One step forward, two steps back.
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
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You're doing GREAT! It's absolutely amazing that your mother goes as far as she does. That's a rare commodity among any cult's members.
Keep it up.
Grandma Cee Cee
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It really is! Hopefully she'll keep on going further.
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
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I'd stick with the little seeds of doubt here and there ... rather than sit them down sweetie. Our jdub parents can be fragile creatures ..... far too used to being told what to do, how to think, what to say and that awful defence mechanism kicks in far too quickly when faced with what they believe to be anti-jdub sentiment of the 'we're being persecuted' variety.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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I have no idea how to handle this....
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I have no idea how to handle this....
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As a lot of you know, pretty much my whole family is still "in" besides my brother. I've managed to fade out and still keep a close relationship with them, although strained at times. Every year, my mom, dad, brother, aunt, uncle and I go to the beach for a week. I was hoping this year my boyfriend could come along, since my family loves him, and even though they know I'm living with him, they haven't cut me off. I spoke to my mother about it and she said it wasn't up to her, it was up to my aunt who would be renting the house. So I had planned on speaking with her about it privately.
Well, today my mother took it upon herself to mention it to her, also discussing our current living arrangement, not being married and such. My aunt has already said no. I only know all of this because my brother told me, as he happened to be at my mom's house at the time. He told her it wasn't her place to say anything, that I'm a grown woman. I would've handled it. Now my aunt already has her mind made up without even hearing me out.
I still plan on speaking to my aunt about it myself. She has been disfellowshipped twice, married 3 times (3rd guy is the one I call my uncle, he's not a JW, doesn't want anything to do with it.), so her reasoning is that she's been where I've been, out in "the world" and she doesn't understand what I see in it.
It would mean everything to me if my man could come with us this year. He's been such a huge part of my life, and I want him there with me. What's the best way to go about handling this situation? I've thought about something as simple as offering to sleep in separate beds, but I don't know if that will be enough.
This is stressing me out. Like, all of a sudden my mother has an issue. I'm almost tempted to bring out the fact that she's known we've been living together since August, THEY HELPED US MOVE IN, why is it suddenly a huge thing? Like just go ahead and shun me if you feel that strongly about it! Of course that's the last thing I want, which is why I decided to fade. It's just so complicated. They can't just accept it one day and then have a problem with it the next. You know, I'm sure we'll end up getting married one day. We've discussed it. But now is not our time, and I certainly don't want to get married out of fear, which is why a lot of JWs do it in the first place. I just wish they could get out of their heads ya know?
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
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I'd also like to add that my aunt went a little crazy for a long time. She was in and out of bad relationships, she was into drugs here and there, had an eating disorder, and she went through the shunning twice. So she's been thru it and back. She's a wonderful person, extremely fun to be around. But very judgemental at the same time. The difference between her situation and mine, is I left because I no longer believe the religion. Not because I wanted to go and live my life and be rebellious. I don't think she gets that. I think she still thinks I left because I'm stubborn (which I am) and I just wanted to "sin". I mean, it comes with the territory, but I left because it's a man-made false religion/cult and I want nothing to do with it. Despite her being disfellowshipped twice, she still believed it the whole time. Huge difference.
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
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Nobody- you really do know to handle the situation. It's just not always easy. It will, in the long run, when you take a stand work to your benefit.
We all want being kind - that's why we left the religion of our youth and still deal with "Those still in" because they are not the loving kind persons they want us to think they are.
I'm very proud of you for sharing your story with us. I try too remember those that come back..share their stories, they find healing.
Despite everything I might write about and it's not always happy...this site is my favorite for helping me.
Keep coming back!Throw heart kisses
Last Edited By: Linda Jan 12 15 9:44 AM. Edited 1 times.
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I know a little bit how you feel, nobody. Mom hit the roof when I told her my then-boyfriend was moving in with me. It was like I'd told her I was a serial-killing cannibal! (I can laugh now, but I wasn't laughing then!) I couldn't see what the big deal was. I'd faded a few years before and the trailer I lived in then was mine, not hers. Her disapproval stung, even though I knew that's how it would be. But I stuck to my guns. It was my life and I was going to live it how I wanted. When she saw Don wasn't going anywhere, Mom had to let it go. Dealing with all the petty rules and the judgemental attitudes can be crazy-making. I hope it works out for you.
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So far it hasn't been a problem. I mean they don't like it, but they love my boyfriend, they want us to get married. B all of a sudden when we want to take a trip with them, it's an issue. It makes no sense.
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
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Do you know what their objections are? Do they not want him to go because they consider him a worldly person and they do not want to associate with someone of the world or is it because the sleeping arrangements would be that you and him would be sharing a bed? This may not apply in your case since your family is jws but it is possible that they would consider him being allowed to go on the family vacation if the two of you had separate sleeping arrangements. Try to find out what their objections are and see if a compromise can be worked out. If it is the sleeping arrangements, I realize it is not ideal to sleep apart but they may be open to it. Let's face it, we all know people who are non jws who are conservative in their ideas who have adult children that come home with their partners that they have lived with for years and the parents still insist that one sleeps on the couch while the other takes the bed. However, in your case, it may be more complicated because their objections may not just be with the sleeping arrangement but with the fact that they took a family vacation that included the worldly partner and they may fear how that will look to the organization.
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No, it's clear you love them. Its also clear they love you dearly as well. I'm sure they have always wanted what's best for you. The problem lays in their belief in "what's best".
You know your twice-disfellowshipped aunt must be fearful of yet another Judicial Committee tribunal, and facing another disfellowshipping for harboring (1) an unrepentant apostate (2) an worldly [aka 'evil'] man and, YIKES! (3) allowing them to live in sin--the consequences of which is death! As she's been told if the always "coming soon" Armageddon happens when she's out, she's dead--forever. For her and any of those convinced this is 'the truth', that's got to be totally terrifying.
Your mother, bless her heart, has to be a bit of a fence rider or she wouldn't dare talk to you at all, let alone help you move in with your lover. [According to the WTBTS, she is required to "report" you to the elders for that.] It looks like she's been protecting you all along and enjoying a warm mother-daughter relationship. (That sounds like love to me.) You gotta' know she's afraid to lose those benefits by being caught allowing you two lovers--separate beds [LOL!] or not--join 'righteous ones' in the JW family. That would/could mean risking everything she's got.
One solution I see is changing your vacation plans, which might just be easier to do than trying to change their minds. Then there's getting a nearby hotel room for the two of you, and spending time with the family. (It could protect you all from potential problems.) And there's always asking your aunt and mom for their advice as to what you should do--whether or not you choose to take it. It might have the most calming effect on all of you.
I wish you well, Grandma Cee Cee
Last Edited By: Cee Cee Jan 12 15 2:25 PM. Edited 1 times.
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Aw somebody.....I'm sorry this is still going on!! But I wanted to let you know that these complications are not just to do with jw's, but also peoples individual 'sensibilities'
When my now-husband and I were living together before we married, his mum (not a jw or any particular religious beliefs) would be okay about visiting at our house, but flatly refused to allow us to sleep together under her roof!! Considering we lived together for many years before we married, it caused us a great deal of difficulty and annoyance.....
As cee cee said your mum obviously loves you a lot...and you her....so it sounds like you will have to do as I did, and work out a way round it that allows you to spend time together, but doesn't 'offend' her.....
Lifes never straight forward is it??!!
Hugs xx
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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I definitely believe [right or wrong] those people can kiss my arse!
It's always ok when on their terms...it's always about how they can approve our actions.
I'm not going to let anyone into my home that is disrespectful. I'm also not going out of my way for spending time with someone [parents or not] that is judging me for sleeping/sex with someone.
Sam- it took me years with living with my now husband before I agreed to marry him. We had some of the best sex but with getting older that's not important to me. I appreciate that I have insurance due to his military experience.
Every now and then we still enjoy sexOh no are not going to get a divorce because religion is always there...just as is the political and military.
We have a good relationship...and it does work when we stop allowing the JW to dictate.
Last Edited By: Linda Jan 12 15 5:41 PM. Edited 1 times.
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G'day wonderful somebody. As weird as this sounds, my only advice is BE YOURSELF.
If you can ignore but be respectful to the WBT$ ways then you can function freely and normally as a human being.
Why should a crazy cult make you bow and scrape around their crazy money grabbing rules? But then I can be a bit blunt I guess.
Some good advice above...better than my bulldozing way.
Live good. Keep the peace. Aspire to greatness.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
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I don't mean to be harsh, but I wonder if one of the reasons they continue to talk to you is because they hope
by being nice you'll be pulled back into the fold.
Yeah, your mother still talks to you, they know and like your boyfriend, even helped you to move in with him,
but I think letting him come on a trip for them would be too much.
It's just so complicated. They can't just accept it one day and then have a problem with it the next.
I think it's also complicated for them. They love and miss you, and want to continue seeing you,
but they know they "should not" be associating with you and condoning the fact that you are "living in sin".
The difference between her situation and mine, is I left because I no longer believe the religion. Not because I wanted to go and live my life and be rebellious. I don't think she gets that. I think she still thinks I left because I'm stubborn (which I am) and I just wanted to "sin". I mean, it comes with the territory, but I left because it's a man-made false religion/cult and I want nothing to do with it. Despite her being disfellowshipped twice, she still believed it the whole time. Huge difference.
Bingo. Your aunt got disfellowshipped because she wanted to "sin" and she probably thinks that's what you want to do as well.
It is hard for her to fathom that you don't believe it's the truth. You know how they think - How could anyone think it's not the truth? smiley: eyes
That's couldn't possibly be the reason you don't go to meetings anymore. *sarcasm*
If I were you, I just would not go on the vacation. Like Uncle Punk says, you shouldn't have to bend over backward to
please their stupid rules. Or follow CeeCee's suggestion and rent a hotel room nearby.
When I was living by myself with my two girls, my dad had no problem staying with me in my apartment,
even though I was *gasp* disfellowshipped.
However, now that we are living with my boyfriend, my dad has not come to stay with us, even though
I've made the offer to him before. I can't force him to change his principles, no more than he can change mine.
It sucks, but that's the way things are.
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Thank you for all the replies. The vacation isn't until May, so I still have some time to get my ducks in a row. I realize it's complicated for everyone involved. I'll keep you all posted on what I decide to do. Either way, I plan on talking to my aunt and offering to sleep in separate beds, or renting a hotel room nearby. That's also a great idea. Hadn't thought of that. So we'll see what happens. The love I've received from my family now and in the past has been wonderful, and I know I should be thankful for that. Not everyone that leaves has that luxury.
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
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Mel - it's the same here. Although "Fence-Rider" and I can get along at times - she never lets me forget it's about getting me back to the church.
It seems they do [although they love us] there is another agenda as regards their religious belief.
This is why we post and share our experiences: they are the one's that don't let it go...despite how loving they seem at the time and it's up to us for knowing our personal boundaries because we are tired of being the scapegoat and/or the caretaker or name it whatever because they will label us according to what they believe.
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Linda, I get what you mean. Most of the time Mom doesn't bug me about going to the KH. BUT Memorial time is rolling around again and she always calls to invite me. Same when the CO is in town. Never mind that I haven't set foot in a KH in ten years, and the last time was only to see my youngest sister get married. It's like twice a year she gets a zealous fit and tries to get me to go. I just thank her politely and change the subject.
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Hi Sg75 - Good to see you continue sharingnuts We actually have fun on this site.
I'd forgotten that the Memorial is coming soon - and they would be amiss for not inviting us.
Speaking of those very special CO's or whatever...the other day when fence rider had a conference...I realized it was going to the KH that is around the corner from us and I actually know something is going on with all the traffic.
She forgets we know this community and how many business owners have JW family...
The funny thing...we've never seen one JW show up at her home for helping her! It's ok that everyone else helps....
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Wonderful Somebody ..... rather than bother with the impending argument about 'the truth' vs 'the REAL truth' and should I or shouldn't I ask if your lovely man can join in the holiday fun .............. book a nearby room or look for a holiday apartment or house of your own! That way you and your lovely man can have some time away from any potential no go zone topics ..... and you can invite everyone around your place one of the nights for dinner ....... and show them just how good you are together, without even having to try!
One of the things I've noticed over the years about jdubs ..... is that there always seems to be one rule for them ... and one for everyone else. It's okay to hop in and out of bed with this one and that one ... providing the right sounds of repentance are made if caught out and providing the guilty parties are willing to suck it up for a few months and then return to the fold safe and sound. They can be highly contradictory ........ it's okay for them to make mistakes because they are imperfect humans or Satan made them do it ..... but live a little further on the fringe and all of a sudden you're way worse than they've ever been or are ever likely to be!
Punk's advice to be yourself is perfect! Be yourself ...... and don't let the religious crap suck your happiness away sweetheart.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Thanks for the helpful replies. I think we are going to end up just getting our own place down there. Hopefully that'll make everyone more comfortable. Such a shame I have to hide my normal life from the people I care the most about.
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
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People don't like it when you say "NO"
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offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
People don't like it when you say "NO"
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No...you no longer have permission to tell me what or how to believe..
No...I no longer need believing in your concept of any god...
No...I will not tolerate drugs in my community...
No..you no longer can tell me it cost so much money for getting copies of our medical records...
NO seems to be the answer and it's working.argh
Last Edited By: Linda 5 days ago. Edited 1 time.
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No is a good word.
No, I don't want to do overtime at work, I have a life to lead, some of which does not involve work.
No, I don't want another beer........................................That's a lie by the way.
No, I don't want to be a JW anymore.
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
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I love the word 'no' Lin!
'No ... you can't watch TV'
'No ... I don't want to hear your religious crap because your religion practices shunning'
'No ... I am NOT wrong ... your religion DOES practice shunning ... I'm an apostate!'
'No ... wait ... why are you leaving so soon .......'
haha
Nice pic there young BillyAndyAndyBilly!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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I'm still dealing with fence rider rider and hope it's get easier.
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Missy Rhonda - I'm trying to bait our beloved Suggar back to the fun section because of his recent pic - not sure where I stand...he seems to be quite but as yourself; when it's time, he'll show up with something fun.
Take Care.
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It's a busy time of year Lin .............. I know it is for me due to school holidays and all, but fairly shortly my two boys will be back off to school ... the same one this year as Carson is no longer in primary school and will be up at the big school with his bro! I can't believe how quickly they have both grown up. I'm sure it was only yesterday I put them on the living room floor and could walk away knowing they couldn't go anywhere!!!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Why are Jehovah's Witnesses wrong?
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Why are Jehovah's Witnesses wrong?
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Why Jehovah’s Witnesses are wrong: They believe that the Bible is God’s word.
The Bible is the most distributed book in the world. One reason for this is that people in charge of the British Empire used the contents of the book to subdue the masses to conform to Christian values as interpreted by the leading clerics of the empire. By owning a Bible it made for a visible spiritual authority in every household which could be used to enforce a united Christian commonwealth.
Darwin’s Theory of Evolution was the first hammer blow for the status quo of church/state Bible endorsed power. Amongst the thinkers of the day, such as TH Huxley, it became immediately and transparently clear that the Bible is fable and not literally true. The problem was earth shattering; if the bible was not true then the moral authority of the avowedly Christian political powers were undermined.
In any far reaching intellectual shift of focus (and this was a big one) there are always those who understand the evidence and those with vested interests who doggedly cling on to the traditional orthodoxy. This takes place slowly but over time when most have accepted (as in Europe at least) that science has greater force than faith, there remain the rear-guard who refuse to question and will give their lives to maintaining the irrational stance.
Jehovah’s witnesses are amongst this latter group.
The Hebrew Bible is full of the most appalling and heartless morality tales instructing that allegiance to a cow-headed idol called Yahweh comes before life itself.
It is hardly surprising that The Watchtower cult place themselves before the feelings and family bonds of their members?
What though is the antidote?
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status offlinepunkofnice
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half banana wrote:
What though is the antidote?
I recon the complete anihilation of the human race. Either that or education....a thing the WBT$ loathes because it shows up their scam for what it is. Nah, sod it. as Bender from Futurama would say: 'Kill all humans!' There will always be people that are controlled and those that control. Religion like North Korea, is evidence of that. In the mean time the lies of the WBT$, cults and all other creligions need to be exposed to public scrutiny and their leaders put on trial for crimes agains humanity. Best of luck with that ay!?!?
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
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I wonder "how" all the time...it's too big of a problem for one generation and in fact, if this has been going on since Darwin, many generations.
I watched a youtube the other night that was about 45 minutes long on Gobekli Tepe and there were some interesting things said about the dawn of religious thinking (which the producers of this vid think Gobekli Tepe was). They linked it to uniting people who were leaving the hunter gatherer life, with it's small communities that shared the food, to keeping the larger aggrarian communities united and UNDER CONTROL. I don't have the link right here plus don't know how to link thinks with my ipad but maybe if you Google Gobekli Tepe youtube it'll show up. It was pretty good!
Maybe the answer is along the lines of what Paul suggested...starting over...and as hunter gatherers.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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Thanks for sharing, whytebyrd. That sounds interesting. I agree, one generation isn't enough. Several generations aren't enough, but progress is being made. Just in my lifetime, traditional Christianity has increasingly lost members. The Catholic Church, once solid and strong with believers that didn't question, is losing ground even in Latin America. The child abuse scandals rocked it to its core and I'm not certain it can ever recover. In developed countries, more and more people are leaving established religions and either declaring themselves atheist or religious but not belonging to any particular denomination. But I also agree with Punkie. Some people will always need religion. And other people, some less than admirable, will be there to fill that need.
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What though is the antidote?
It seems to me education. The more educated a person is, the more likely that person will recognize that religion is just a fairy tale.
I'm sterotyping here, but the highest number of churches are located in the south.
The southern states are also the least educated. The northwest and north east are the highest educated states
and are also the lest religious as well. There has to be a relationship between the two statistics.
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Hi, Palm. smiley: happy
They are wrong because they hold to an old religion that is no different from others - although they want us too believe they are.
Perhaps the "oldest" are in the South: I know my part of the county is just as nutty. It's religion...religion...religion and politics! As I've mentioned before, there is not separation because they each feed off of each other.
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The other day I was reading some statistics on the decline of religion and at long last it seems that the line on the graph is now strongly dipping. One would have thought that it would have happened earlier on in back in the 20th century but in just the last ten years or so there is significant change . In response to this it is interesting that countries with an already high proportion of non-believers such as Finland and Holland are seeing a faint increase in religious attendance but I think this is a last gasp reaction to avoid total church extinction.
Even in the USA the number of believers has decreased enormously over the past 10-15 years. This despite the absence of a social safety net in the form of state provided medicine which is given as a reason for the religiosity found amongst the less educated and less well off. China and Japan appear to be the least religious of the major world players with poverty-stricken and Ebola-ravaged West African countries consistently keeping themselves at the top of the league of believers.
The conclusions one might draw from this is that religious hope and fellowship serves to support the needy irrespective of the validity of the differing beliefs. But “Times they are a changing” and the power of the internet and rational thought which travels with it, is spreading around the world.
However in darkest JW land, the captives are compelled to wear blinkers and cover their ears so as not to see or hear an alternative viewpoint. The question remains how can they ever get to hear reason? Is exposing the Bible's errors the way forward?
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
Last Edited By: half banana Dec 9 14 4:31 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlinepunkofnice
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The WBT$ have very little else to say but are still holding on to the R&F through their guilt, fear and phobia inducing tactics.
'Thou shalt not get an education.'
they know what they are doing in line with Mel's comment.
Keep them in the dark and feed them excrement....like mushrooms!
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
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Is exposing the Bible's errors the way forward?
No, I'm afraid not, HalfBanana, that would only make people want to defend it even more.
It reminds of me of situations I see on online forums. A girl posts about her husband/boyfriend.
He's a jerk, he doesn't want to get a real job, he spends too much money on beer. He still texts his old girlfriend
but says they're "just friends".
But the second people tell her he's a jerk and she needs to leave, she immediately starts to defend him.
Oh, he's not that bad. He's really a "good guy", he's just stressed out right now.
It's the same way with religion. The second you start to expose the hypocrisy, people are like
Oh, it's not that bad. Christian's aren't perfect, blah blah blah.
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I have to agree, palmel. I'll admit I was the same way when I was first on my out of the JWs. I KNEW they were on the wrong track. I KNEW I didn't believe what I was told to believe. I KNEW I was miserable. I could criticize the WBTS privately, to myself, but I STILL defended them to outsiders who said something critical. Even when I knew the criticism was valid, I still defended them. It was a conditioned automatic response that took me a long time to get over.
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I am trying to make a connection with why JW org is wrong, namely their mad belief that every word of the Bible is holy...and the means by which their errors can be exposed. They are wrong for many other reasons as you have pointed out; it’s not just their unblinking trust in the Bible. They have also mentally downloaded all the GB derived fears and demon phobias and unthinking holinesses as well.
Ok the Bible is full of holes and mistakes (both David and Elhanan son of Jair of Bethlehem both are recorded as killing Goliath in different accounts 1 Sam17,50 + 2 Sam21,19). Most of the Bible is copied from earlier pagan astrology disguised as history and from ancient, foreign royal court sources, yes most! In fact it is calculated that 82% is derived from pre-existing texts, often modified to suit Israelite propaganda. The Bible is completely unreliable and certainly not the work of a Supreme divinity.
Clearly their pride is in believing that they have ”the only true religion” because everything they believe they claim is based on Bible text. (Forgetting things like not smoking, 607BCE/1914, overlapping generations, slavish obedience to the governing body etc!)
We know JWs are deceived, most people know they are but JWs are blinded to reality. They are a one sided coin, they are fed wrong information and then deprived of knowing the truth by being forbidden to verify it... yet are told to call it “truth” without question. It is yin without the yang. Obedience is placed before reason (fascism)...it is a human disaster.
Palmel you mentioned education as the antidote and I agree that it really is so but the cult leadership knows that those exposed to critical thinking, a necessary component of higher education, soon spot WT error and quickly desert the organisation. How could they disobey the mighty GB and go to college? JWs are already on the lowest rung of the socio-economic ladder, they can’t descend much further... can they?
The antidote?
There have to be some inroads we can make into their deluded lives and are three routes where JWs are exposed to reason:
1 Through the media of radio, TV, press, film and the internet.
2. When out preaching and they meet the likes of us.
3. When in contact with non JW family.
How can we optimise these (or other ways) to get some daylight through?
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
Last Edited By: half banana Dec 11 14 2:56 AM. Edited 5 times.
status offlinepunkofnice
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Nana - I think part of the problem is that JWs 'believe' for varied reasons. Some were simply like myself, raised into it and mind controlled from infancy so it's hard to break free. Others have too much invested emotionally in the cult to leave it. Some are just sheeple, unthinking. some enjoy the power being an elder(tm) provides. Some genuinely think it is indeed the 'truth(R)'.
I like 1. The media covering it. Of course the dyed in the wool JW will see any of the above as 'persecution(tm)' and the mind control will kick in and they will switch off and retreat further into the cult seeking safety.
Educate the young and as the old guard die off they will not be replaced.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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HB, of the 3 ways you mentioned to bring the light of day to JWs ALL have been noted and had fortifications put up by the GB. I personally believe that communications with family that have left was and is the biggest factor in so many leaving from 1999 and up until 2011 when the strong offensive began. They are up against the power of familial love...pretty powerful stuff! By convincing the R & F that their 'apostate' family members are like a terrible disease yada yada yada, they routed one of the biggest drains on their membership. It is my hope that as more on the inside die (in spirit) from the lack of love that they might remember the ones who really do love them. So...in answer to your original question my answer is their lack of LOVE. That is what will cause people to leave. What they offer is a facade and not real and people on the inside will see it. But it will take time. And, not all will make it out.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
Last Edited By: whytebyrd2 Dec 11 14 10:53 AM. Edited 1 times.
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It's a noble effort... to try to educate JDubs, but I am not sure it will be the undoing of the organization.
We can hope for some big conflict at the top, a coup, or split in the powers of the GB. It's happened before, but unfortunately, it emerged as an even more high control group (when the drunken womanizer Rutherford hijacked the group after Russell died). There was a small coup when Fred Franz delivered his talk about the "tail wagging the dog" applying it to the power of the Watchtower Presidency and Vice Presidency as opposed to the Directors, who at the time were all Governing Body members. At least the GB of the time had the wherewithal to grab that opportunity and basically told Knorr and Freddy they had no power beyond the GB itself.
I think it nearly happened during Ray Franz's time... there were several at the top who quietly dissented. Unfortunately Ray didn't have any other GB members stand with him, though I think a couple agreed with his findings about 1914 and the "end of the gentile times." It proved to be merely a speed bump on the highway to hell.
We can also hope for more judgements against the Watchtower for their coverup of child abuse. Cases like Candice Conti and the last 13.5 million dollar award this last October are slowing them down at the toll booth--the highway to hell is getting expensive. The press (I hope) will continue to expose them for what they are... a corporation whose sole purpose is to perpetuate itself--even at the cost of innocent children. It's too bad the courts don't send some of them to jail... but who knows?
“The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn but to unlearn.” ~ Gloria Steinem
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Following on from Brother Yammer's comment I believe the only way to thwart the corrupt corporation is to cramp them financially.
Lawsuits against them for the protection of paedophiles.
Expose them as non charitable and revoke their tax exempt status.
Crimes against humanity such as shunning, prevention of life saving blood transfusions.
It all boils down to exposing the tactics they use too. The R&F DO NOT do these things under their own compunction. these are NOT desicions they make based on the bible; they do these things because as Bydie refers to......the threat of loss of family and ostracism.
Indeed. what IS the antidote?
The death of the WBT$ will be by 1000 cuts not just a few things.
Get the buggers where it hurts them the most....their wallets!
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
status offlinehalf banana
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All good points folks... lack of genuine love inside the cult, the prospect of fragmentation at the top, bad publicity and financial pressures causing it to downsize and lose authority...when a ship is sinking: the passengers leave as fast as they can.
The WTBTS is based on a well-honed adventist viewpoint and its doctrines have little bearing on the corporation’s self interested function as a rich doomsday cult.
It is just one of what, forty thousand differing sects of Christianity. It is like being in business to market utterly useless widgets which serve as good luck charms or confer status or hope to the owner... the difference being that widgets are taxable. Religious marketing has the advantage of being tax free and can legitimately use the unbelievable sales pitch of the promise of paradise and more credibly, membership to an international social club if you subscribe. (Why can’t the UK Trades descriptions act be brought into play here?)
I admit... the fact that the Bible is faulty has no bearing on this; it is all about the marketing of your sect.
The obvious route to the termination of harmful religions would be to discourage them by removing their tax free status. Yet in the UK and almost everywhere else, the label 'religion' is sufficient to be able to claim charitable status.
What is needed is a change in government attitude towards religious privilege. Humanist organisations are lobbying for this.
The time honoured concession given by governments to any religion regarding charitable status must be redefined. Tax exemption could be granted only to those charities which genuinely bring practical benefits to the community and like doctors, must be seen not to do harm. The present rules financially encourage the high control cults like Scientologists and JWs, religions that induce mental harm and determinedly give nothing back to society.
The WTBTS is obsessively interested in maintaining the tax benefits.
Their hypocritical excursion into UN world politics was an attempt to secure their expansion into countries where they would be otherwise be treated as a commercial business.
Taxation aside; there are other reasons for us to be hopeful.
1 People are generally more educated and the lure of religion is in decline. (Though it has to be said that fundamentalism has an increasing appeal to the desperate...and the more dire the rules; the more appealing to those without education and hope of worldly success).
2 The media does appear to be keen to pick up on the excruciatingly expensive sexual abuse cases against the WT. This sort of publicity can do no one any good and will instantly repel normal people when confronted with the JW message. (Abnormal people though might be interested?)
3 The WTBTS has peaked in the western world, its increase here is now no more than the population increase. (i.e.the ratio of publisher to public remains the same). Because it cannot hold onto all of its members minds, even with shunning threats, they leave in droves. That means there are millions of ex-JWs, probably as many as those still in! I wonder what percentage of us remain in the mental shackles supplied by the Tower and how many are now prepared to speak out against them?
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
Last Edited By: half banana Dec 12 14 3:09 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineJoe Magarac
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Interesting how members of different groups that believe "the Bible is God’s word" disagree with each other.
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain Exodus 20:7 (sorry I don't have the New World Translation handy).
JWs -- ... Call Him by name.
JEWs -- You know what really pisses the Big Guy off? Better not call Him by name.
status offlineCee Cee
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Most people who don't believe Darwin have never read Darwin. Some of it makes good sense. Some not so much.
Most people who think the bible is literal, haven't read it either. Some of it makes good sense. Some not so much.
Either way the ignorance is in not have given either one open minded consideration.
Cee Cee
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I'm reading with much interest! Keep it coming folks because I have nothing to add to this conversation - just enjoy the exchange.
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Whilst agreeing in principle Cee Cee, namely that of the need to be open minded, there are two intimidating hurdles the reader encounters when approaching the Bible.
The first is that it is considered a sacred work. This carries before it a veil of marvel and mystery which prevents all but the most objective to be drawn under a spell. Humans love the thought of holy (read ‘magic’) things!
The second distinct hurdle is the error in taking the Bible at face value as a book of divine wisdom. There has been a deliberate obscuring of the information about the borrowed origins of the Bible by religious authorities. It is the work of many scribes copying, altering and adapting older documents and claiming them to be the work of God. Whilst this would be laughed at today, it was the normal way of controlling the illiterate population back in the Iron Age when the Hebrew portion of the Bible was collated. I say ‘collated’ and not ‘written’ because many of the texts already existed as standard works in other lands at that time. It was a matter of choosing those parts most compelling for political exploitation by the Israelite leadership.
The New Testament is centred round the re-telling of an ancient pagan saviour drama, incorporating the major pagan religious beliefs of third century Asia Minor. This ‘pick and mix’ eclecticism is the reason why the Roman Church called itself ‘catholic’ (all-embracing). The Bible texts were formalised by them in the fourth century and by deliberately concealing their pagan origins they then claimed the Roman Catholic selection of texts to be sacred and then deployed them to promote the allied Roman Church and state to secure its political hold over the sprawling empire.
So it means that to understand the Bible; much more than an open mind is called for. It requires access to the social history of religious belief and a knowledge of source texts and why they are in the canon.This is a tall order! Religious cultic propaganda has had every reason to obscure the pagan superstitions which are the origins of the Bible.
Fundamentalists teach scripture on face value and simplistically. It is held that it comes direct from God and they enjoy the buzz that accompanies that, egged on by like-minded believers. Most JWs seem to enjoy their mental slavery to the Watchtower org. and its interpretation of the Bible because it is so much cosier to reinforce communal solidarity by just believing and having faith. To question it would burst the Watchtower dream bubble.
Do JWs prefer the blind acceptance of religious authority because of the social benefits of being a believer, over and above what is really true?
Or is the main error of the WTorg. not doctrinal but social, with their self-importance fostering an abusive hold over their followers irrespective of beliefs?
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
Last Edited By: half banana Dec 15 14 4:54 AM. Edited 4 times.
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It's simple. The WBTS t/as Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe they are wrong about anything ... therefore they will never admit to being wrong. They shun yet say they don't. They cut family members and friends off ... yet they say they don't.
From my experience watching my parents over the years and watching others ... the WBTS becomes habit forming. It becomes a habit to live that lifestyle and it becomes a habit to feel guilty for wanting something other than that lifestyle. Add a bit of fear to the guilt mix ... and you have a whole new generation of erstwhile seemingly happy jdub campers who willingly go along with whatever they are told is right.
For some of the jdub hierarchy ...... on the outside of their halls or their Bethels ... they are nothing and nobodies. On the inside however, they are mini Gods ... servants directly in sync with the great Jehovah ...... and they enjoy that feeling of being someone important. The ones who run my dad's former hall (he hasn't gone since my mother's death and I'm hoping it stays that way) ................... are a carpet cleaner (his fill in job until the world ended in 1975) ... a retired builder (houses of dubious quality) ... a council gardener ... a piano tuner ... and a former grave digger. Not a scientist, doctor or professional amongst them. Not an intelligent individual thought between them ... as they too are part of that habit forming religious lifestyle.
Is the main error of the WBTS doctrinal? Yep ...... but it's also social in that domestic and family violence kind of way. Isolate the punters ... keep them from the ones who truly love them ... then restrict their thoughts, toss in the mandatory guilt, fear and recrimination ............ and hey presto, another generation of people too frightened to think for themselves and always ALWAYS with that dangling carrot of eternal life on a paradise earth wafting in front of their little faces. I don't believe there is a belief system in the WBTS anymore ... despite what their website says. It's a habit to be part of that religion ... nothing more.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Why are Jehovah's Witnesses wrong?
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status offlineCee Cee
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Dec 30 14 8:37 AM
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Whoa! Next time you hear that belief in religion is waning, give some consideration to Islam's alarming expansion. It's growth seems to be at a rate higher than the growth of Christianity since the 3,000 were baptized at Pentecost. What does THAT say about the situation?
The British Empire's monarch was, most conveniently, the head of the Church of England. It was England's King James 1, who ordered the translation of the KJV bible and the subsequent banishment of the six (6!) bibles already translated into the English language from use in any Church of England. Why? Not one of the earlier translations included the 'doctrine' of the Divine Right of Kings--something he, as king, desperately wanted his subjects to believe. Early on there was a lot of debate about the King's ruling. However, this doctrine got a lot more support as the Empire expanded and the people of conquered territories came to view their conquerors as representatives of the throne and [gulp] his God.
The abuses that came from that combination of political and religious power was the main reason the very first amendment to the USA's Constitution, the Bill of Rights, prohibits Congress from "making any law respecting an establishment of religion", or "impeding the free exercise of religion". Americans, mostly coming from Great Britain, reacted to the controls of the Crown and its church, had already established Pilgrim (Massachusetts); Quaker (Pennsylvania), Catholic (Maryland), and one of the first places on this planet to guarantee freedom of religion, Rhode Island, before Bill of Rights.
There is nothing special about the British having exported its own state religion as a means to control into respecting the Empire's power. Every empire has dones the same; The Spanish, the Portuguese, the Germans, the Dutch, and Americans have all done it. The reason, no matter the outcome, may not be so nefarious. The folks from 'home', the military, the government, the settlers, are all likely to have brought these beliefs along with them. As it turns out the natives may see good reason to adopt the practices of the ruling class.
Don't let anyone convince you that this is a 'Christian' idea, before looking into the Communist Chinese takeover of Budhist territories--or what happens to the peoples of the areas taken over by the Islamic State, Boko Haram, Al Shabab, etc. Wherever Muslims--the major empire builders of our times--take over non believers are murdered in wholesale numbers. (That would be us, folks!) If that happening to the Christians and pagans of the Middle East and Africa doesn't concern you, think about how soon Sharia Law will be enacted in France, UK, Sweden & Germany, where the Muslim population is overtaking the 'native' European birth rate 8 to 1. In 20 years they will out number any other voting group, and Islam's Sharia law is likely to be the law of the land in many "Chrisitian" countries.
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status offlinehalf banana
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Yes Cee Cee, the rise of fundamentalist Islam is a global concern but a swift look at the internet figures on Islamic expansion gives mixed readings. Their fanatical attacks are inhumane and often born of desperate minds and poverty. There is a strong parallel with the Watchtower: belief in the certainty of the divine word, group think, group activity and faith in the promise of paradise which is held to be more important than one’s present life etc.
Islam is much divided like Christianity is but its growth as the second biggest religion (1.2 billion against Christianity’s 1.6 billion) is not really that impressive because it happens mainly by being born into it. Western converts usually remain converted on average about five years, so I read. Atheism is growing faster in the world than deist belief is.
The dangerous elements of Islam are mainly found in the poorest countries among people who have less to lose materially, where education is correspondingly poor and where large families are still are valued as a financial security. This does not mean that there is no serious problem. It goes without saying that their brand of judgement against non-believers, or more frequently Muslims of the wrong stripe... is often through direct action and Allah seems to have a blood lust just as strong as Jehovah does. JW org beliefs tend to kill believers own children through denying a transfusion of blood which is bad enough. Islam exaggerates its numerical strength, but surely Sharia Law which is at odds with most democracies cannot possibly supplant the existing laws of western lands.
I think Islam will be a continuing source of anxiety in the world but we must hope that Western liberalism, clear thinking and humanitarian values will eventually win out.
Btw Germans had no real empire did they... just Namibia? Was it not more a case of ‘empire envy’ which figured in its Kaiser Bill’s expansionist aims at the start of WW1? In the next war, Hitler never achieved it either. Perhaps Germany is an example of how imperialist desires are left unfulfilled and the hot-heads of Islam will likewise receive the disgust they deserve by a more rational majority in the world?
Perhaps the answer to the deep social anxieties in the poorest countries is good government which spreads the world’s wealth to help the most needy?
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status offlineSwingLifeAway
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What though is the antidote?
I know the discussion has moved past this but I wanted to respond to it anyway.
I believe the antidote can only come from within. A sincere desire to leave, combined with events that force the person to consider an alternative lifestyle. It helps if the path to that lifestyle has to offer more rewards than staying on the current path.
For me it was very much a doctrinal thing but it was also very much a desire to experience as much of college as possible and to date freely. I could not take the sexual frustration.
Yes Cee Cee, the rise of fundamentalist Islam is a global concern but a swift look at the internet figures on Islamic expansion gives mixed readings. Their fanatical attacks are inhumane and often born of desperate minds and poverty.
Wanted to offer some context to further this part of the discussion too. Islam is an umbrella term. Underneath it we find a variety of views across a wide spectrum. For example did you know that most Muslims disapprove of suicide bombings? But at the same time there are countries where stoning is approved of for dissenters.
In general - more liberal Muslims live in the first/western world.
Here's some pretty extensive data on the Muslim population: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/
Religions of all stripes are a problem, so it is important to see past the traditional right wing Western narrative. That narrative itself is based in religious bias and feeding into it is detrimental to the problem. A lot of this goes back to Israel as well.
-Dave
“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy.' They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
- John Lennon
status offlineCee Cee
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I have a lot of respect for the Pew Forum's work. I missed this one. Thanks for the link.
Like the skeptic I am--especially at information presented in the form of statistics--I can't help scrutinizing every conclusion of authorities. (Perhaps the most valuable gift resulting from having a Jehovah's Witness upbringing.)
“Outside of the killings, DC has one of the lowest crime rates in the country.”
― Marion Barry
Did you, like me, find yourself wondering why certain nations seemingly significant to this study were absent from it? Or how that absence might skew the numbers? How about the report that Muslim women were more supportive of hard-line Sharia Law than their male counterparts, like: (1) whether the interviewers of these responding women were male or female or (2) whether those interviews were done in private, 1:1 (dubious), or under the supervision of male family members?
Again, thanks for posting!
Cee Cee
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offline1moxjdub
Are you there??
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Dec 18 14 6:45 PM
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Are there any current jws on here in good standing and are curious as to what's being said or actually have doubts? Or maybe you just like to live life on the edge.
If so what is your status? Elder (No way) Ms or pioneer? Or just a publisher? Didn't you just hate that ELDER...MINIsterial SERvant.....PIONeer or just a publisher....
Anyway if you're out there let us know.
status offline1moxjdub
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Dec 18 14 10:06 PM
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Just for the record if anyone thinks I may be a spy or trolling or whatever I can truthfully say that I have been happily df'd since 1997 I was just seeing if i would get any
comments on the subject I do realize that there are many here that are on the fence but if you are still in you definitely don't hae to worry about me ratting you out.
FUCK THEM CLOWNS!!
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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Dec 18 14 11:17 PM
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Never say never...but I don't think you'll get any bites Moxie.
Prove me wrong you lurkers out there!
It's really too bad because there's so much good info to be had here and it's not just hateful speech...that comes from the other side more often than not.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
status offline1moxjdub
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Dec 19 14 1:48 AM
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Ok I tried I do think back in the 90's and was an MS and hating every minute of it I probably would have been all over this forum it's very interesting but most of us
have been out for so long we kind of lost touch of the every day dalings of the cult
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Hi, Moxie. Good to see you continue posting.
That's why it's important for continuing your research into the Borg because they are the hateful ones. It's not us...and I'd hope, as you expressed, you are sincere in learning more. Not that any of us have all the answers. We just tend being more honest than you'll ever hear from a JW because we share our experiences for what it was like being involved with a cult of hate and judgement. And, of course "They" would never view themselves as anything but the truthsmiley: mad
So, you were once a MS? It's good getting to understand where people come from but as you know by now - it wasn't what position you held, IMO, it's how you woke up to the insanity!
Fence-rider sister is still impressed with titles and such smiley: eyes because she will probably never leave.
I don't take your comment as being anything other then you are sharing your experiences and hope you continue to share your story. BTWtree, Love John and Linda
status offlineeewx2
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Dec 19 14 6:16 AM
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Four years ago I was an inactive publisher lurking. This site helped me decide to DA. Now I am out and loving life!!! I have learned there IS life after the WTBS!! I will forever owe a debt of gratitude to this site.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Dec 19 14 3:41 PM
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Moxie - I was DF for so many years, just living life but because of family members still in and trying to understand how any religion teaches such hate/shunning...I began looking into these type sites.
I came across some 'recovery' sites that were hateful within themselves but do understand looking back, many of us were new and often used language and hate speech. Hopefully we've all matured from making death threats - even in jest.
Those were some crazy daysOMG and I won't go there for any reason with any site.
I also try being careful what other site I might pull up because of the idiots that think talking shit is going to get them anywhere; Well, maybe with some, it just won't be me because I'm no longer the naive little girl that needs be told what I should believe or how I should think. The minute I think someone is talking hate - I'm gone...I don't need supervision from some "authority" telling me how "bad" I am.
Although, guilty on this one, "I hate the WTBTS Organization" for how they have destroyed families. How, because of their man-made doctrines many have died. It that's "Hate Speech", so be it. They need come to an end.
It's going to be interesting in the coming years with how they continue getting away with such because IMO: "There is no separation of Church and State." "Sooner or later when you lay with the Devil you will fuck."
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Dec 19 14 4:22 PM
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eewx2- That was very nice of you to share your input into how this site has helped you.
And guess what? It's still Santa snowtime and you have a carolers
status offline1moxjdub
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Dec 19 14 6:40 PM
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It's funny how an entire worldwide organization is built on fear fear of being struck down at the big A. Even a special pioneering/gilead grad/bethelite
/circuit overseer/emblem eating/picture in watchtower super star can become inactive on Dec 1 the B big A comes 2 months later and he is one
dead motherfucker. Then there's a fear of being exiled to DF island where noone can talk to you or look at you or ask for your husband or wife if they
call on the phone and you answer. The fear that you would be caught looking at this site and recieve divine punishment. What's wrong with this
site isn't every JW secure in their belief that they have the truth the only true religion. What's a forum like this going to do to someone who is
firmly rooted in the org? Linda yes I was a MS would have probably been appointed an elder at the next visit but I just couldn't do it anymore
I had had enough and abruptly stopped attending meetings. Instead of being appointed Elder I was deleted as MS attempted a brief comeback
afterward but it just wasn't in me was DF"d. Attended one meeting sat in the back and everything looked around said F this S and never looked
or went back
status offlineCacky
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Dec 20 14 12:21 PM
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I didn't come on here until I began to search the Internet. I was looking for some jws to explain the new (to me) blood policy where they can now take fractions. That made no sense to me, if they were supposed to abstain from blood, how could they take fractions. I actually thought I'd find some jw who could give a scriptural explanation for it, but what I found instead is the truth about "the truth." My searches led to this site. I was inactive at the time, but attending some meetings and was planning on making a comeback.
status offlineLeyDelMonte
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1moxjdub wrote:
Ok I tried I do think back in the 90's and was an MS and hating every minute of it I probably would have been all over this forum it's very interesting but most of us
have been out for so long we kind of lost touch of the every day dalings of the cult
I think everyone hated it at first. I wasn't promoted from publisher to MS b/c by 18 I was already doing bad, but the friends that were promoted always used to complain about how time consuming it was. Anyway, they eventually convinced themselves they loved doing it. Figures.
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Dec 21 14 6:27 AM
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I never liked it and the thought of being appointed elder really scared me to death. I wanted no parts of it I told an elder that once kind of pretty much telling him I didn't think I was cut
out for it he disagreed said that my humility would have made me a great elder. I thought to myself yeah how can I counsel people on making their marriage work when I am currently
cheating on my wife?? (That was years ago I was much younger) Anyway I hated being an MS hated the extra meetings and we really didn't have that many but the thought of having a
meeting just about every week if I became an elder turned my stomach.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Hi, Moxy. It's still Christmas time for me and life continues doing what it does.treeI just love these holiday icons!
As you already know, the confirmed, stand true JW, should never be here in the first place so if they do venture into our world of research and support - let them take that up with their precious Jehovah.
As for this site and others...as you are learning, while we have different experiences for sharing, we would find fault with what we once believed those people had the truth about god. That of course is just one of the many problems when living in fear for questioning - and heaven forbid, you do independent research that will go contrary to the WTBTS teachings.
As for what will happen to this site - we'll stay alive and continue helping others.
Last Edited By: Linda Dec 21 14 6:55 PM. Edited 1 times.
status offlinesolitaire
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Hey Mox
I would definitely have answered this thread when I first stumbled across this site............but that is mainly because I no longer had anyone alive who I would have felt I was 'letting down'
Although I had been inactive for a long time, I still harboured thoughts of returning at some time, and had never truly researched the religion...........so I was stuck in no-mans-land emotionally....and hopefully that is where sites such as these do so much good!! imo they are not here to 'lure' practicing jw's into the world of apostacy, so much as to be a source of support and information when those doubts start to creep in....
I wonder if there is actually anyone here who truly still believed when they found this or another ex-jw site and left because of such sites......although I would love to think it possible I doubt it is the case....although christmas can be a good time for internet surfing, especially for disillusioned jw's....so never say never smiley: smile
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlinematitalica
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Dec 24 14 7:30 PM
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I'm a very active jw...pioneer, elder, ministerial servant, in the line to become a circut overseer. I report every minute I spend witnessing to others, I go online to all the xjw hate sites to warn the world of apostates, I even confess to the other elders if I have unapproved sexual realtions with my wife, and I let my kids hang out unsupervised with that single brother who is a ministerial servant and wonder what my daughter did wrong every time she comes home after spending a few hours with him.......holy crap that was one hell of a nightmare, but would have been all too real if a kind person who was an apostate happened not to come across my path. Then to find this site the nightmare ended.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Matitalica- That was too funny! Because Sharon reminded me I sometimes take things to seriously - your post gave me a chuckle smiley: laugh
When fence-rider moved here, it was for doing "Ministry Work"; because she came to help me.
In the end, it was she wanted a change and I would help her.
I also know that 'fence-rider' will use family for her benefit. That she is beginning to return some kindness while going to the KH - she still continues wanting to spin her JW speech and I'm not doing that!
It's very interesting in how she will tell others how they should believe. We are a military family and until it came to how her one grandson wants going into military service - she would condemn others for doing such and yet she tells me she would have him be in Special Forces as our brother was.
She is not only a fence-rider, she is a hypocrite that thinks she can say whatever to others and we're just too damn stupid to understand!
status onlineAndriaSyxx
... nice try Mox ... #16 [-]
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Dec 26 14 12:18 AM
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.... it's a brave current jdub who would come forward and admit to being a current jdub. I live in hope that given it is now 100 years since the jdubs trading under whatever name they were trading under at the time ... foretold that the world would end 'before this generation passes' ............................... the younger ones will wake up, see what's really to be seen ... and get out into the real world and live their lives as they should live it! It's never too late for the older ones but sadly they have now allowed their religion to become a habit ...... and sadly it's a habit they feel the need to defend.
If you ... as in current jdubs ... DO happen to be wandering around our forum .......... fantastic! It's great to have you here! Despite the guilt and fear that has been loaded on top of your gorgeous heads for however many years you've been tangled up with your religion ....... there IS life outside of your local kingdom hall and like it or not ..... it's actually pretty cool!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinenobodyknows
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I also lurked for a long while before first posting on this site about 4 years ago. I'm inactive, not dfed, and that's my choice. I faded. I'm not prepared to lose my entire extended family. Luckily my family and I are still very close for now, despite my inactive state. My parents are still very much in, but they're much more balanced and understanding than most JWs. But any time I hear anything new and crazy thru the grapevine, I try to share it on here. So I'm still close to the religion, unfortunately. That's a part of fading I guess.
I did hear that the upcoming Watchtower is allegedly debunking 1914. I'll definitely fill y'all in as soon as I hear if that's a thing.
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Now that we're finished with the Holidays Thank-you perhaps we should begin a special holiday for those lurking that find common sense.Birthday cakeSo what say you and what date should it be?
I need another thing to celebrate before Valentines Dayclapping
Seriously...I have all the time in the world for having fun because I'm just waiting until harvest season which isn't far off.
Love, Lin and John
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I'm very interested in that upcoming Watchtower!
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Okay so I read the article. It's up on JW.org. It doesn't debunk 1914, that was just a random opinion from someone that didn't know what they were talking about. HOWEVER... the article basically says that the prophesies in the Old Testament shouldn't necessarily be linked to specific things in the New Testament. For instance, saying that this represents Satan and that represents Jehovah, we should be concentrating on lessons learned, and that the watchtower will be simplifying their articles to fit that.
Now to me, that reads as a Segway into more articles with more specific prophesies being debunked because they shouldn't be taken so literally. Basically paving the way for them to say they screwed up without actually saying it. Make sense? I'll post the article on a new thread so it doesn't take over this one.
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
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Jan 10 15 6:03 AM
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Wait what???? Everything in the old testament doesn't neccesarily correspond to the New?? Are you fucking kidding me?? Isn't what the org been doing ever since
they came into existance?? The finished mystery?? The sacred secret? All the other bullshit. Didn't they seem to know the modern day significance of just about
every word written in the Old Testament? I thought the entire Old Testament was a prophecy that was fulfilled first in the new testament then later once the Jw's
came on the scene. I thought a lot of prophecies in Ezekiel dealt with JW's the GB in particular you know being thrown in jail being dormant for a couple of years
then coming back to life, And the grandaddy prophecy of all you know the time double time and a half overtime whatever the hell it was dont they base all of
their date predictions on that one prophecy in Daniel??? It's amazing how much of the bullshit I remember after all these years but are they running away from the
whole interpreting prophecy business altogether???
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status offlinenobodyknows
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That's what it seems. They said that they shouldn't interpret prophesy unless there is specific scriptural backing of it. Uhhhh I thought that's what it was supposed to be all along! Smh.
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
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nobodyknows wrote:
Okay so I read the article. It's up on JW.org. It doesn't debunk 1914, that was just a random opinion from someone that didn't know what they were talking about. HOWEVER... the article basically says that the prophesies in the Old Testament shouldn't necessarily be linked to specific things in the New Testament. For instance, saying that this represents Satan and that represents Jehovah, we should be concentrating on lessons learned, and that the watchtower will be simplifying their articles to fit that.
Now to me, that reads as a Segway into more articles with more specific prophesies being debunked because they shouldn't be taken so literally. Basically paving the way for them to say they screwed up without actually saying it. Make sense? I'll post the article on a new thread so it doesn't take over this one.
It is the covering up bit without making it obvious covering up! There will always be that 'oh yes but only Jehovah knows .....' followed quickly by 'we know more now ... in the past they were uneducated men ... imperfect men ....' pick your poison.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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offlinenobodyknows
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So my brother and I are planning to have a sit-down with my mom and dad very soon. We want to make them aware of some of the things we've learned upon leaving, such as the lawsuits. But we don't want to overwhelm them of course. We've been planting seeds over the last few years, and they know we don't believe in the religion any more, but we haven't had a full on calm and detailed conversation about it in a long time. We think it's overdue. What I'm asking now is, what are some of the most basic things you all can think of regarding the falsities in the JW doctrine? Things that wouldn't necessarily overwhelm them. Like, we don't want to march in there and be like, '1914 is a lie!' We think it's best to start small. Any thoughts?
Keep in mind, my parents are pretty deeply indoctrinated, very firm in their beliefs. My father is a 3rd generation JW. Something interesting about him I learned recently, is that he refuses to be an elder. He was one when I was a kid but he got into some trouble about 15 years ago and ever since, he hasn't wanted the responsibility. In addition to that they're both very balanced in most things. They are able to see reason, to an extent. Much more than the average JW. So that makes us think we might have a chance with them. Obviously it'll take time. But we just need some ideas on where to start. We broached the lawsuit subject with my mom, and she said she'd have to do some research. Good start, right?
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Good Morningback to topic
It's not going to be an easy journey. It's good there are signs for seeing some hope and thankfully you and your brother want helping.
I wish I could share something with you because we're 5th generation and it's been a struggle.
OK, if I'm going to say anything else - you continue taking care of yourself. First and foremost, without doing that - as much as any of us wanting others [parents included] we must take care of us.
It's not selfish, it's not a mean thing and as we all get older...as many have shared through the years...it's not easy and hopefully your're parents will allow you to help them in their older days.
I'm getting everything changed over for my son because no child should really have to deal with what is going on in your life, but it does happen.
status offlinepunkofnice
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Well, this is a fine line to tread. If your folks are deeply indoctrinated then they probably are on 'apostate(TM)' alert.
The WBT$ hard wires in this segragation from non believers.....especially those that have left the 'truth(R)'.
Beware is all I'm saying. You know your parents better than any of us here. However, the deply ingrained WBT$ bias is a tough barrier to crack. They are brainwashed into turning their minds off to any critisism on their cult leaders.
This could go 3 ways....1. They have their eyes opened (Is this likely?) 2. They shun you and vanquish you to outside the cult mental compound. or 3. Nothing will change.
People need to change themselves.
Pick your topics carefully and watch out for any JW mind stopping cliches.
Perhaps just asking them thought provoking questions may be an idea. Keep the conversations to factual things that you can back up with evidence. the problem with talking about things like the Candace Conti case is that they will believe what they want to believe and you will always find those magic fictional characters satan and his deeeemonz(tm) used by them to say you are decieved. Yes, it's a get out clause for them.
Why not browse JWFacts.com for some ideas? Take care. Let us know how it goes.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
status offlineCeili
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Hoo hoo, nobodyknows,
wishing you the best in your attempts.
I am looking at it from a broader perspective because I am not a JW. And don't know too much about factfinding.
But....as with any ideology that gets mixed up with belonging, fear, hope for salvation etc, the idea of veering from the path might be even life threatening. So I think the least confrontational you can manage to be, the more softness, care and love, the easier they might find it too to be soft around it. Around you! You wouldn't be talking to them if it wasn't people you care for deeply.
xxx
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My only advice would be baby steps. A little here and a little there. But then I've learned to be cautious about saying too much to my JW family. Their reflex will be to defend the faith, no matter what they privately think. But you know your folks better than we do. If you and your brother think they'll be open enough to listen, go for it. Best of luck and keep us posted.
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Hey Nobody,
I have to agree with the others to take baby steps and tread carefully.
Honestly, I would not have any sit downs with your folks, since you say they're pretty deeply indoctrinated.
You may think they would be open to reason, but you have no idea how someone would react
I would keep "planting little seeds of doubt" as opposed to having a "sit down" with them.
But if you want to do a sit down talk with them, I would pick one pretty good thing
and bring it to them like you're asking for their help to understand something.
Say for example it's the change in the blood doctrine. Show them something and say
"Mom, Dad, can you help me with this? I don't understand why this policy changed."
And then have them explain it to you.
If you show them documentation and say "See! Look here! the JWs are wrong!" their defenses will immediately go up.
But if you pretend like you're asking them to explain something to you, they won't "suspect" what you're doing,
you're just "confused and looking for understanding" on something. smiley: wink
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I was in a very similar situation a few years ago. I got lots of good ideas, advice, and pertinent warnings, which you can read about here: exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/15723/Lets-do-some-apostasizin-Suggestions-Please (in my case, things did not go as planned!)
Russ.
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Maksutov
I read through the thread you posted and can't say I was surprized. I don't know what it is about religion that makes people's brains shut down.
I remember talking to my then mother-in-law who is baptist. I asked her some questions about the bible,
and as soon as I got to a question she couldn't answer, she just exclaimed
"That's the devil making you think that way! Don't let him put those thoughts in your head!" *SMH*
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palmel:
I have become tired of most religion (esp. the Abrahamic kind) because I see the same processes at work behind them all. It's usually a matter of severity and the extent to which the beliefs negatively affect people's lives.
There are places where, in 2015, you can be executed, imprisoned, or beaten, for changing religions, ie apostasy, or saying things religious leaders don't like (blasphemy).
Christianity used to burn heretics when it had the power to do so and the Watchtower has implied that they'd kill apostates as Jehovah commanded if it weren't for the laws that Satan's world has against such things.
Instead, the Org admonishes adherents to treat relatives who've left the religion as if they're dead to them. Thankfully, it's the best they can do at this time.
nobodyknows:
I think it's really hard to reason with JWs in order to get them to question their beliefs.
They can reconcile seemingly contradictory notions in order to protect their belief system.
For example, they can deal with the organization being 'the truth' while simultaneously allowing it to be imperfect and wrong.
So if you think that proving to them that the organization has been wrong will convince them it's not the truth, you might be surprised.
They may simply say that Jehovah lovingly uses imperfect men who may sometimes be wrong.
The fact that this argument (that J is unable or unwilling to prevent imperfect men from misleading his servants) could invalidate even the Bible will not occur to them.
I would recommend that you continue to plant little seeds as you have been doing. Are you sure how they're interpreting your seed-planting?
It's possible that they've been entertaining some of your questions because they've been viewing them as opportunities to address your concerns and get you back into the fold.
In other words, they're seeing a potential to witness to and "help" YOU since you're still asking about the religion even though you're "in the world".
For JW's, "do research" is code for "check Watchtower publications to refute negative claims" NOT "search the internet for independent information".
If we've been out for a while we can forget that mindset. I would caution you against being too optimistic and then going full 'apostate' on them.
Sorry for being a bit of a wet blanket but it's what I think.
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Auth - because I'm tired of how the computer is working as of late...
I enjoyed all the responses but will respond to your's first. Let me say how glad I am you continuing helping all of us gamer
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I re-read something posted in the past from Russ...
We are dealing with an insane religion that we all have family members we love.
Because of "Fence-rider" that does not shun, she will do the same with me when it comes to try explain things I've read/research through the years. As others have pointed out...have your ducks in a row and tread lightly.
I've gone the gambit with being a believer to a non-believer. I do however want show respect to those that show me the same. Once again, if they cannot respect my beliefs- let their church members take care of them when the day comes.
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Look at some of our members...and how they write about their experiences...How many have written trying to help us understand...being that 5th generation - I've seen so much and it's always a struggle for learning that hopefully we've come to love each other for having the courage to move forward.
I've been in extreme stress lately...but, this forum is my saving grace.
So, in ending again, take care of yourself. Learn your boundaries and stay firm.
We've all seen many loved one's pass and it now time to see the JW church step up and help. That's unlikely but should they do such, you still must remain strong.
Love, Linda and JohnThrow heart kisses
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Tread very carefully my sweet ...... you don't want to lose what you have with your folks. Being so deeply indoctrinated ... it has become a habit for them to defend their faith, and they are likely to be inclined to be more defensive with you and your bro pointing things out.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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There was no one realization that caused the whole tapestry of "the truth" to come undone. It was a cumulative process of little realizations... there were things I just could not accept and did not believe. One of the big ones was the teaching that even though people all over the world would never speak to a Witness, nor read a Bible, these people would die at Armageddon because they fell under the "communal guilt" of whatever nation they lived in. This included babies and young children, it included people who were "good." That expanded to wondering if all "Christians" who read the Bible, who took the magazines at the door, or who maybe knew Jehovah's Witnesses personally, understood and rejected an earthly government ruled by God over "mans government." How many people really had "a thorough witness" and really rejected Jehovah God?
Of all the religions in the world, why was my religion true? Of all the "Christian" religions in the world, why was mine the one based on the "truth" in the Bible? I began to understand the nature of group bias and how it gave people the conviction that only they were right, or deserving, or superior. Understanding that my personal bias was also strong and that there had to be a way of testing myself to see if it was based on anything real was probably the last step before my faith vaporized, literally overnight. Religion is an illusion, just as going to a movie is an illusion--we buy into the story line, the plot, the characters, we get emotionally wrapped up in it and we may cry, laugh, become angry, or even feel depressed, even if it is just for a couple of hours. Ultimately, it's an illusion--just a series of still pictures projected on a screen so fast that the characters and scenery begins to "move" before our eyes.
Maybe the movie is based on a true story, has its theme set in an historical context, but it is still just an illusion. All my life, my illusion had won the Academy Award of religions, and I began to wonder why I thought it to be superior. There was nothing I could think of that was solid "proof" that the "truth" was true.
I don't know if you can present a few things that will cause them to really think about all this and examine their religion and see that it's no better nor worse than any other organized religion; that in reality, it IS just another religion, among thousands of religions that has no real claim based on any evidence that anyone can agree on. It may be unique... but all religions are unique.
It comes down to understanding the difference between faith and truth. If we know something to be true, there is no reason to have "faith" that it is so. Faith is merely belief in something that cannot be proved true. Witnesses proclaim their faith is based on "accurate knowledge." In reality, knowledge is the agreement between what is in the mind and reality. Witnesses really don't think about that. They don't accept that their faith is just as blind as that of anyone else... that they have no real evidence that it is anything more. All of the evidence shows them to be just another false religion... as if there were any other kind.
“The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn but to unlearn.” ~ Gloria Steinem
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Yammer - I think too understand what you are trying to explain.
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Linda
Thanks. I've grown fond of this little corner of the web.
Yammerhammer:
I agree with your post. An underlying unease drove me away from the religion.
It took me a few years to do independent research and be able to articulate the "why".
The TTATT that I discovered was confirmation but the desire to evaluate what I'd been taught came from inside.
That's the problem with trying to get someone out.
You can't plant that desire in another person; it has to the there, even latently, for you to feed it.
As they say, you can lead a horse to water...
Ultimately, it's an illusion--just a series of still pictures projected on a screen so fast that the characters and scenery begins to "move" before our eyes
It's kind of funny that "real life" is pretty much the same. I think of that sometimes.
The screen is our retina onto which solar light is projected by our built-in lens.
Surfaces on the planet with which light interact correspond to the film and our self-aware consciousnesses are simultaneously actors and audience.
I guess that's why Shakespeare wrote "All the world is a stage".
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Nice to hear, Auth. We do sorta grow on peoplerock on woohoo and it''s always nice when someone returns...although I cannot keep up with ya'llBrain Fart
status offlineCeili
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@Yammer, just want to tell you how much I enjoyed reading your post. Spot on and well put. Thanks!!!! Thank-you
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Yammer, that sums it up for me. A lot of little things building up over the years raised doubts before I was ever ready to make a move. Though it was a callous remark from the circuit assembly platform about the futility of JWs giving to charity (the needy people being helped were going to die at Armageddon anyway so don't bother helping) gave me the final push over the edge. That was just the cherry on top of a whole pile of doubts.
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@ Nobodyknows:
So my brother and I are planning to have a sit-down with my mom and dad very soon.
That reminds me of a "sit-down" with my brother (elder) and his wife. The important difference, however, was that they came to us (to myself and my husband the apostates) and not we to them. They wanted to convince my husband and I that we were wrong and they were right--they came with a whole page of scripture references. Their way was to read those texts together and thereby convince us "scripturally". It backfired right at the first scripture. We happened to know just as many "scriptures" that revealed and showed that the WTS was not adhering to scripture themselves.
My suggestion is do not try that method unless they use it on you. If you think that they may just be prepared for it.
The positive in your case, NoBodyKnows, is that you are still able to associate with your parents--they have not rejected you--even though they know that you no longer believe in that religion. Be very thankful for that and preserve that precious relationship with all your heart.
My suggestion is do not talk about religion at all. Do not try to talk them out of it. When you visit them just be happy that you still can. Show love and concern for them--they will need you as they get older. They may not want to admit it but all of us are in the same boat, we all will have a certain span of life and then we go. Live your life happily, enjoy your parents as they are. Some need that org unfortunately---just do not let it stand in the way of loving your parents.
“The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen nor even touched—
They must be felt with the heart.”
Helen Keller
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I agree with GoingForth.
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Just to clarify a bit, when I said 'sit-down', I didn't mean we were going to lecture them or argue with them. We jet want to have a normal conversation. I think they'd be open to that. But as also stated by several people, avoiding the topic all together seems to be working so far. It'll be a slow process, whatever happens. I do cherish our relationship, and I certainly don't want to put that in jeopardy.
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
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JW Podcast
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Anybody been listening to it? I'm a huge fan. The shows are long but they're worth it. I usually wait til my guy falls asleep then put my headphones in.
Also, I'm excited to see this movie coming out, Truth Be Told. I think it comes out on the 8th.
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
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Nobodyknows, you will enjoy Truth Be Told. Mr. SailAway and I went to the premier in Brooklyn. It was a little creepy walking around Brooklyn Heights, checking out where Mr. SailAway lived when he was at Bethel. Funny, you can spot a JW from 50 paces-- dreary clothes, downtrodden look, worn shoes and the infamous "book bag". smiley: sick
JWpodcasts are interesting. The Christmas podcast was an interview with Paul Grundy from jwfacts.com
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We must have the faith that the Bible does revive..... Now that song is echoing in your head....what else can you think about?
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
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Darn you, Punkie! Now I got that song in my head! smiley: laugh
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Punkie, you little ear worm! Take this:
(CHORUS)
We're Jehovah's Witnesses.
We speak out in fearlessness.
Ours is the God of true prophecy;
What he foretells comes to be.
laughing devil
For further amusement and self flagellation:
http://lyrics.wikia.com/Watch_Tower_Bible_And_Tract_Society:We_Are_Jehovah%27s_Witnesses!
status offlinepunkofnice
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Mel: Tee hee hee.
Sailaway: I remember whe the lyrics went 'we are jehovah's witnesses....' which I thought scanned better lyrically...but hey ho...I'm glad the WBT$ messed it up.
Oh, shulamite remnant so lovely and fair.........
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
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I'll top you all....
"Lazarrus lay sleeping in a cold stone grave..."
When speaking of JW songs, dirges best describe
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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I'm currently thinking of "bees that were molested". So thanks for that!
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
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Curses, Punkie! I need a brain scrub! 'Dark days are here, Man lives in fear'. Cue the heavy, depressing music.
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Damn you all. They are all in my head now. It took me 28 freaking years to clear those out!Marbles in head
“The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn but to unlearn.” ~ Gloria Steinem
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We'en eyes of blind ones see again
we'en ears of deaf ones hear again
later in the song......
a little boy will lead them all
and they will heed his childish call
If you keep your eyes on the prizeeeee
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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This is too damn funny!
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The BEATLES "Birthday" song - YouTube
www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjF1bG5LUcs
Maybe this will help rid the nasty ear worms
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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Byrdie, Somebody, sg, yammer, Ear worms rule.
It just shows how these bloomin' awful crappy songs get in the brain. Evidence I say, of the mind control!
Here's a real old one...wonder who'll remember this one?
to the work, to the work, let the hungry be fed.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
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Do any of you remember when Kingdom Halls had pianos? They did--although pianists were even harder to come by.
Grandma Cee Cee
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aunty Cee Cee,
Yes....the pianos. We had a sister that really belted out the songs. Also we had a pedal organ painted light blue. It was a wheezy old thing and made the dirges sound even more dire. At one hall we had a piano and a bloke on clarinet. Still the songs were austere.
Here's a really old one I recall as a kid...
Hastening on, hastening on...
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
status offlineJourney
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Jehovah is our refuge, our God in whom we trust.....
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Journey - Aaaaaaaaagh! When teeth of deaf ones hear again...when legs of blind ones hear again....
Did I get that right?
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
status offlineBilly Sugger
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I always thought, and sang, Big Lad you nations with his people.......
Good job 'Blaydon Races' wasn't in the song book.
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
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My KH had an organ back when I was really young. The elderly lady that played it had played the organ for the same Lutheran church my mom grew up going to. This lady often hit wrong notes but she was the only one in the hall that could play the thing. Then the GB decided live music was too churchy and we went to a really awful sound system. It was always good for a laugh when the guy running the thing would space out on Thursday night and forget to cue the last song. When they built a new hall, I swear the same old system went into it.
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sg75 wrote:
Curses, Punkie! I need a brain scrub! 'Dark days are here, Man lives in fear'. Cue the heavy, depressing music.
Damn it sg!!! Niw i have this stuck in my head. Im gonna go now and listen to something thats less depressing like the sounds of a crying puppy.... or johnny cash
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When I converted in 1981, they still used a piano. It wasn't great playing, an older lady played each week.
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Sorry, Kefka. Couldn't help myself. I like a little Johnny Cash. 'Boy Named Sue' always cheers me up. 'My name is Sue, How do you do? And now you're gonna die!' My name really IS Sue, but fortunately I'm a girl.
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Just to clarify a bit, when I said 'sit-down', I didn't mean we were going to lecture them or argue with them. We jet want to have a normal conversation. I think they'd be open to that. But as also stated by several people, avoiding the topic all together seems to be working so far. It'll be a slow process, whatever happens. I do cherish our relationship, and I certainly don't want to put that in jeopardy.
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
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status offlineJourney
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Punk, I don't remember the rest of that song, but it is the only song part I remember from the KH. After that it goes in my mind "His Dah Dah is our Dah Dah Dah, Dah Dah Dah. .................
status offlineauth
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I sort of remember it ... ( aaaaargh!)
The rest goes something like:
...
We must have that faith if God's war we would survive
Do we have that faith accompanied by works,
This kind of faith preserves our souls alive.
And I bet you remember the tune now too.
You can all thank me later. smiley: devil
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
status offlineauth
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Ok, I'll make up for that with more appropriate lyrics for your earworms.
It's in spirit of KBG's wonderful adaptation of "Make the truth your own" in that other thread.
I'll start with that and follow with others you probably (wink) know.
#1
Make truths of your own
All facts you can now disown
By the way you contradict yourseeeelf
You make known that to lies you are prone.
#2
We're Jehovah's Wickedness
We will leave you fam'ly-less
Ours is the god of two-witness ruuuule
Rape by yourself and your'e cool.
#3
Do you have the faith that will eat up any line?
Are you in our cult though we're wrong time after time?
Are you credulous and never curious,
Then take a dunk, we'll get along just fine.
#4
Dark days are here
Internet's there
All that information, about molestation.
So Conti sues
It's in the news
What the hell are we to doooo?
I think humour, even if a bit dark, can help diminish the impact of the past.
I got a bit of a chuckle imagining witnesses reverently singing the songs to these words.
Who wants to sneak the wrong CD in at the next convention...lol
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
status offlinepunkofnice
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Well said...er...sung auth.
I recall singing something abot 'God's active horse!'
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
status offlinepalmel1234
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#1
Make truths of your own
All facts you can now disown
By the way
you contradict yourseeeelfYou make known that to lies you are
prone.
#2
We're Jehovah's Wickedness
We will leave you
fam'ly-less
Ours is the god of two-witness ruuuuleRape by yourself and
your'e cool.
#3
Do you have the faith that will eat up any
line?
Are you in our cult though we're wrong time after time?
Are you
credulous and never curious,
Then take a dunk, we'll get along just
fine.
#4
Dark days are here
Internet's there
All that
information, about molestation.
So Conti sues
It's in the news
What
the hell are we to doooo?
So clever! Awesome job Auth! clapping
I love the "Dark Days are Here" one! You're right a little bit of dark humor helps you.
How many comedians talk about things that are down right horrible. Humor helps you deal with things
you probably wouldn't be able to think about otherwise.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/179443/working_mom.html
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Bravo, auth! I like your version better.
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Punk
I recall singing something abot 'God's active horse!'
That must be the one pulling Jehovah's Chariot-like Organization.
Maybe Armageddon's delay is due to an aged horse?
Who'd have thought?
palmel
Yeah, sometimes joking gives the chance to start the conversation and the healing.
Given the turnover rate and the shunning policies you bet that the Org has caused a lot of harm to many people.
I think it's good to have ways to shed the weight of that experience by highlighting the absurdity through humour.
I liked laughing at Punkofnice's edited Washtowels and Asleeps when I first joined.
It reminds you that the Org only has the power and reverence people voluntarily give it.
Unfortunately for many, their estranged JW relatives aren't on the same page.
sg75
Glad you liked them.
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
status offlinepunkofnice
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and the song that went...
These words faithful are untrue.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
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Cee cee, I remember the pianos very well. Both of my grandmothers played for the meetings.
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
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It reminds you that the Org only has the power and reverence people voluntarily give it.
Bingo. Couldn't have said it better myself! smiley: happy
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punkie
I remember that! lol
"God has said he's making all things new...these words faithful are und true"
I guess that's what yoda-talk will do for you.
palmel
Just read this:
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
status onlineAndriaSyxx
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punkofnice wrote:
We must have the faith that the Bible does revive..... Now that song is echoing in your head....what else can you think about?.... nothing. Nada. Nein. Nothing at all in my head. Perhaps it's a song I've not heard before? smiley: roll
Nice try big boy! smiley: wink
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Haha! Our Assembly Hall had a grand piano in front of the stage in PA. A few years ago before a remodel it got sold.
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plinky plonky..in jehovah's service...plinky plonky...(something) beyond comparrrrrrre....plinky plonky plinky plonky rubbish.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
status offlineBilly Sugger
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Plug in, turn it up, make sure fuzz box is on...........now play some of the chords in the songbook........proper thrash kingdom songs....lol
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
status offlinepunkofnice
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For those interested....this is me on guitar....my kind of song..
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7teKJvv8p2U
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
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Was anyone at the Live Aid concert in 85?
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offline1moxjdub
Was anyone at the Live Aid concert in 85?
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Jan 13 15 7:20 PM
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Were any of you at the Live Aid concerts in 85 held in the US and the UK simultaneously? I Was there!! Well sort of. The US concert was held at JFK stadium in Philadelphia
which is right across the street from Veterans stadium where we were staging a District Convention the same weekend. So while we were in there singing we are Jdubs
they were across the street singing we are the world. LOL.
Anyway since their concert went way into the night and our thing ended around 4:30 they wanted volunteers to stand guard of our house of worship the entire night.
I was a young teenager at the time so I jumped at the opportunity of being there the entire night and witnessing the sights and sounds of thousands of drunk wordly people
walking around. We formed a perimiter around the whole stadium. I had visions of witnessing lots of things you might expect to see being around a Woodstock like
event like that. You know lots of breasts naked women running around. Free love (public sex) the whole nine.
Like I said I was a teenager. But as it turned out I saw none of that stuff. Not even one set of breasts the whole night. What I did see was plenty of beer bottles smelled
lots and lots of reefer. Dudes pissing every and anywhere lots of hot chicks who happened to still have clothes on. A couple guys said they saw drunk women peeing
but that wasn't all that sexy to me but I probably would have settled for that at the time. The recurring theme for the night was every 45 min or so a group of people will say to us
you guys are doing this shit for free?? Then walk off shaking their heads. Yep felt like a complete fool. Thanks org.
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I don't get what the JW's problem was. Did they own Veteran's Stadium, or was it a public place? If it was a public building what did they think the concert goers were going to do when they left...walk across the street and trash the stadium, while leaving the one they just vacated intact? I dunno Steal their beloved "new releases"(as if), tear the floor tiles up one by one? I dunno Why not just lock the doors like normal people and mind their own business? Newsflash WBTS...everybody is NOT out to get you!!! Newspaper Oh no Chill Pill
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Hi Moxy-
It must have been fun for you and others being at that concert...
We are Veterans' and my brother is dying from Aids...and someone that is retired Special Forces.
We also know that Stupid is what Stupid does and that's why we learn.
Although I love music, the last concert I attended was Pink Floyd. I had just learned I was pregnant and didn't do anything to harm the baby.
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What an education for you Moxy! It could have been the day the rot set in for you on the whole boring highly restrictive jdub lifestyle .... full of religious people who didn't drink too much, piss everywhere and sadly still had a few hot chicks still with their clothes on!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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In the latest Watchtower..the Mennonites
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offlinewapontake
In the latest Watchtower..the Mennonites
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In the sept 1st Watchtower, an article entitled: 'Mennonites search for bible truth', I came across this paragraph...
' In Bolivia, for instance, an estimated 38.000 Mennonites live in numerous remote colonies, each with different rules of conduct. Some colonies forbid motor vehicles, permitting only horses and buggies. Certain colonies forbid radio, TV and music. Some even forbid learning the language of the country they live in. [b]"So as to keep us under their control, the preachers don't let us learn Spanish," commented one colony resident. Many feel oppressed and live in dread of being expelled from the community - a terrible prospect for one who has never experienced life outside.'
There's none so blind as those who cannot see.
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Re: In the latest Watchtower..the Mennonites #1 [-]
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Jeez!!!!!
:x :(
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:think :think :think :think :think :think :think :think :think
"Many feel oppressed and live in dread of being expelled from the community - a terrible prospect for one who has never experienced life outside.' "
Sounds just like all those raised in this cult. Many have grandparent & even great-grandparents in the WTS. Some have their whole family in it. Yet if they are expelled they lose everyone. :sigh :angryfire :pullhair :(
birdie
status offlineNsuzi
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Many feel oppressed and live in dread of being expelled from the community - a terrible prospect for one who has never experienced life outside.'
I feel bad for them. Such a parallel to those of us raised in the dubs, and yet somehow it could be worse for them if they don't know the language or such and were thrown out. Can you imagine?
Thanks for sharing this...
Much love,
Suzi Q~
status offlineTina Holmes
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Steve, have you nothing better to read? lol. :think
status offlinefairyanna
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SailAway, thank you so much for posting this article. It explains so much in an irrefutable way. When you read it, you know it's true. I am saving this for the future, when I hope I can pass it around. Religion can be harmful!
Lily lara
Last Edited By: fairyanna Dec 10 14 9:14 PM. Edited 1 times.
status offlinepunkofnice
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this is the pot calling the kettle methinks.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
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Well, well, well. Sounds all too familiar. Who knew there were so many Mennonites in Bolivia?
status offlineJoe Magarac
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JWs having a go at debunking at the Mennonites?
Have they been losing members to the Mennonites lately or something?
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As was said, the pot calling the kettle black. I just hope my daughters read this and realize the hypocracy.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Holy Shit! You mean we didn't all make this up about how destructive religion can be?
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GB Moron Anthony Morris III Claims The Gays Made Tight Jeans To Turn You Gay
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offlineSwingLifeAway
GB Moron Anthony Morris III Claims The Gays Made Tight Jeans To Turn You Gay
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Unreal. Taking you live, to "Deep Inside the Crazy!"
A member of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses has warned of the perils of tight trousers designed by homosexuals.
Anthony Morris III, a senior member of the Church’s leadership, said: “For these young fellas, cause the older ones aren’t doing much of it thankfully, is the metrosexual look we’ve addressed that in the past.
“What’s happened now is that it’s really caught on more – the tight suit jacket and the tight pants. Better known as tight pants. They are tight all the way down to the ankles. It’s not appropriate. It’s not sound of mind.”
“The homosexuals that are designing these clothes – they’d like you in tight pants.”
He also warned women against spanx, saying: “Some of our sisters, what it is are these spanx… these skin tight stuff they wear, when they exercise, they leave their home and they’re jogging in this stuff."
“Look at the verse. Is that appropriate to wear skin tight spanx or whatever they call it?"
“It’s not modest and it’s certainly not sound of mind. It’s really not appropriate."
“There’s really nothing else to say about it. Now you want to be in your home or your room and wear that stuff that’s your business."
“But don’t go out like that and say you worship the true God.”
Watch the clip below:
Couldn't we all use more angry old White men in our lives telling us what to wear? Obviously we should be none too surprised by this, JW's have reactionarily bucked against every fashion trend I've seen, in my 25 year life.
Hoping someone can explain to me the context of this nonsense. Was this at the annual meeting? Did rank and file hear these ridiculous comments?
-Dave
“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy.' They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
- John Lennon
Last Edited By: SwingLifeAway Nov 11 14 7:28 AM. Edited 2 times.
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I believe it was a record branch visit meeting that was shown to all congs in the US. He also spoke about those who are having problems and can't get out in the field service. He said that some will say, Jehovah understands. He said, What Jehovah are they talking about? He really put on the guilt trip, making them think that no matter their circumstances, if they aren't out preaching, they will go down at Armageddon. Very unloving. It will surely turn some away from the org. But for many others, it will just add to the depression and guilt and fear. He's a real jerk.
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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Yeah, I heard he also guilted those that take family vacations to a 'certain theme park' but haven't taken the trip to visit Bethel. Both take advance planning and money but which would make jehoover happy
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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He also made reference to women wearing "Spanx" (panty girdle undergarment), and by the context it was clear that he did not have a clue what he was talking about, so I hope that he lost credibility with the women at least. Please...don't make "edicts from heaven", speak them in front of a large crowd and have it recorded on video unless you do your homework...or it makes you look like an idiot! Laughing at you And what was so funny as to require constant laughter from the brainless audience?
Last Edited By: cangie Nov 11 14 10:08 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineSwingLifeAway
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Oh right, they do those simulcasted sermons now.
Last time I saw my sister I'm pretty sure she had just viewed this because she was talking about the branch and how this guy 'got right to the point,' 'it was great,' etc.
I was pretty sure this is what she was talking about... now I am even more sure... and with the added info from you two about what else was discussed it's now even more horrifying. She buys into the fear hook line and sinker.
My sister is almost 22 years old and graduates college in the spring.
-Dave
“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy.' They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
- John Lennon
status offlineSailAway
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Yup, truly a moron! Spanx are not the same thing as spandex. This guy is off the reservation! Laughing at you
Thing is he starts out his mean-spirited diatribe by telling the audience that if they don't like what he says, they should take it up with Jehovah while waving a WT around, saying he is going to reference the WT literature and scripture, but then he spouts his own judgmental, misogynistic, homophobic personal opinions! If there was a god, I don't think he/she would ask some crazy old dude to speak for him/her.
The rank and file will eat it up and become even more judgmental towards their "brothers and sisters". Unfortunately, he is paving the way for shunning of inactive (hence, "blood guilty") family members by the fully indoctrinated.
You are right SwingLifeAway Dave:
Unreal. Taking you live, to "Deep Inside the Crazy!"
Last Edited By: SailAway Nov 11 14 1:25 PM. Edited 1 times.
status offlinehalf banana
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I notice Anthony Morris 3rd is nick-named Tony the Turd on JW Net, of course on Ex JW Forum we would never sink to such disreputable name calling!! But what a fool? And this guy is clearly a leading light in that darkness they call the governing body of Jehovah’s Witnesses!
Why doesn’t Big J like tight pants? Who said he doesn’t? He does! It the gb who don’t.
They fear tight pants; they fear that the youth will desert them for the sake of fashion because fashionable clothing is all about what hormonal youth want to wear to attract a partner. Without mating, the species will not survive! Better still the mating instinct trumps religion any day and may all young JWs be entirely persuaded by their good instincts to find a partner and ignore the fascist rhetoric of Tony the Turd.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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OMG! OMG ! OMG !
Hey, I'm 63 years of age and find their speech anything but loving. I'm not 'fashionable" and find some of what are youth wear to not always be appropriate for when they need doing business - I'm also not qualified to tell them much of anything considering my past. All I would say, fads come and go but when you have any religion speaking such hate...I'm done!
Throughout my years of getting older - modesty does matter but then you must remember I'm one of the old farts that don't preach religion and would hope my grandchildren at least learn a sense of modesty just because it still matters in society.
It's still important for presenting yourself as someone that is clean and is there for helping. It's not about god - it's about self-respect.
I don't appreciate how "Tony the Turd" presented the message - being they have separated themselves for so long from the world...they are hardly qualified for telling anyone anything. And that's what pisses me off.
The other day, after her visit with the JW re: Anthony Morris...damn, I'm to sickened to continue this conversation.
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Wait,i wear skinnyish jeans, and im gay... oh my god there plan worked!!!!!!!!! Lol
As someone that had to go to that meeting, i can say it was boring and selfcongradulating. Until tony went up, and even though hes an idiot for guilt tripping families for going to the happiest place on earth instead of the beigest. At least it was entertaining, and i mean that in a very masochistic way. Even my mother who is totally indoctrinated rolled her eyes a few times, which i take as a good sign since i was facepalming about every minute.
And i like that nickname tony the turd. I always just thought of him as the jw version of pat robertson.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Kefka- I don't remember your story but when you mentioned "you had to go to church"...are you someone still living at home and perhaps because of your age, you are not finding the freedom from the religion because you are still dependent upon the help from parents?
I don't give a hoot whether or not someone is gay/lesbian. I do care however if and when the WTBTS protects pedophiles! We have homosexual friends that would never touch our children in an abusive way...and should they do such, the same rules apply to them as it does any known pedophile that hides behind religion. There is no forgiveness, there is no mercy...it's simply take care of business so they cannot harm another child.
Life is an interesting adventure. I'm glad you continue posting and help me understand things. Take Care and be of good cheerbeach party Love, Lin and John
status offlineKefka6
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Hey Linda I don't have a particularly interesting story, found out I was gay at fourteen, decided eternal celibacy wasn't for me so I decided I would leave when I was financially independent.it wasn't until last year that I found TTATT. Now I'm out to my friends outside the org and my mother (who did not take it well). And with any luck if my "cousin" doesn't back out I'll be able to move into an apartment in a couple of months and never go to another meeting again. :)
status offlinepunkofnice
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....and none of it will appear in the dublications so AM the turd can say the WBT$ didn't say it if taken to task. I'm glad this idiot is saying these things as I hope it wakes many JWs up to what weirdos are in control of the cult.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
status offlineBilly Sugger
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Rumour has it that Tight Pants Tony has been disfellowshipped. Not been absolutely confirmed yet, but John Ceders posted on Facebook about him.
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
status offlineSwingLifeAway
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I would venture to guess that Tony has not been laid in decades.
Leaked - Tight Pants Tony's workout outfit leaves little to the imagination.
Z9Ehz9I.jpg
-Dave
“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy.' They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
- John Lennon
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I take it this would be a no-no then ? smiley: tongue
jeggings (trapez) Tags: blue jeans leggings bulge thight jeggings
oh........and this is another case of language differences over the pond...............over here tight 'pants' would be more like this.............
images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSxAgfYhTrsMnkwOOk1dI1
so I could see why our Tony thinks they are unsuitable for field service .............although I beg to disagree smiley: smokin
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
Last Edited By: solitaire Nov 12 14 8:39 AM. Edited 2 times.
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Naughty, naughty Solitaire..........Kewl Pics Discipline
status offlineKBG
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Kefka6 wrote:
Wait,i wear skinnyish jeans, and im gay... oh my god there plan worked!!!!!!!!! Lol
....
Kef, because your are gay...hmm... or, maybe because you CAN! Selective scripture chooser like the GB frequently cannot.
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solitaire wrote:
I take it this would be a no-no then ? smiley: tongue
.....
Yes, Sam, totally inappropriate. Have him remove those tight pants immediately, then post a pic proving it has been done, lest I notify the elders.
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Tight jeans? Nope. Tight jeans were around in the 70's ...... the man is a knob-spank. They are skinny jeans or skinny pants ... not tight! Honestly ... you'd think he'd know that!!! haha
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Billy Sugger wrote:
Rumour has it that Tight Pants Tony has been disfellowshipped. Not been absolutely confirmed yet, but John Ceders posted on Facebook about him.
Hmmmmm. sounds highly unlikely methinks. Any one know what was posted about this?
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
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Well, I'll be waiting for an update.
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GB Moron Anthony Morris III Claims The Gays Made Tight Jeans To Turn You Gay
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status onlinecangie
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punkofnice wrote:
Billy Sugger wrote:
Rumour has it that Tight Pants Tony has been disfellowshipped. Not been absolutely confirmed yet, but John Ceders posted on Facebook about him.
Hmmmmm. sounds highly unlikely methinks. Any one know what was posted about this?I read John Cedars' blog...and while he didn't actually say "disfellowshipped", he did infer that it would be interesting if TM3 were "stripped of his lofty position.... because his outspokenness is making him a liability to the organization." He also said that he hoped that wouldn't happen, because he would like to see this behavior cause the organization to "implode", and went on to cite several ridiculous made-up things that Tight Pants Tony has blathered on about as though it were the "Word of God."
Last Edited By: cangie Nov 13 14 7:02 AM. Edited 1 times.
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Right - to be clear - that is purely speculation on Cedar's part
-Dave
“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy.' They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
- John Lennon
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I thought Cedars said it turns out to be not true.
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Wow, that is too good! I am gay and I like my tight pants...despite me having a belly but hey. I have seen plenty of brothers wearing tight suit pants and have nothing said about it. Spanx being bad for sisters too....WOW! Plenty of sisters wore them out in the ministry in lieu of pantyhose. He needs to be introduced to the female designers who design men's tight pants.
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This is the post that John Ceders put up on facebook....it seems it may not be true as there hasn't been any shockwaves which we would have heard of, but you never know.
John Cedars Ok, this stays in the pending tray but for the time being I'm treating it with a pinch of salt. I think it's crossed wires. If you guys go to the group "Uscire dai Testimoni di Geova: ferite profonde del loro ostracismo!" you will see a thread has been started claiming that Anthony Morris has been disfellowshipped. One of the group members notified me about the thread, telling me that evidence would be forthcoming. However, having waited a while, and observed the chatter on the group, I think it's highly likely the guy who started the thread has read my latest article on Tony and maybe misunderstood it. So for the time being, it ain't true - but if you guys could keep your ears to the ground and let me know if you hear anything, I would appreciate it!
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
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Oh yeah,just found the posts above......any way, it caused a ripple.....
and back to the tight pants..........
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
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I wonder how younger JW's who peruse the internet feel about the way their religion is mocked by the masses.
-Dave
“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy.' They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
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What about if a woman wears tight pants? Now I know it was frowned upon for women to have pants on full stop ..... well long pants as opposed to knickers ....... but I have in my younger days worn tight pants and I can't remember being interested in having a same sex relationship. Perhaps my pants were not tight enough? Haha!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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SwingLifeAway wrote:
I wonder how younger JW's who peruse the internet feel about the way their religion is mocked by the masses.
I dare say a fair few of them would be pretty angry and frustrated at what they're reading Dave ...... and of course they'd be saying it's a sign the world is closer to its end because of the 'persecution' they're experiencing at the hands of a random bookface comment or three! Thankfully ... there would also be some who would be embarrassed to be part of a religion that is always knocked and perhaps they will go that next step and start researching things.
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1278422611prince_packagensfw1.jpg
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There is that point too Wingnut!!!! Can't say it's my kind of fashion!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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here's some sisters preparing to go out on field service, they are just about to read the daily text together......
image
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
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cangie wrote:
punkofnice wrote:
Billy Sugger wrote:
Rumour has it that Tight Pants Tony has been disfellowshipped. Not been absolutely confirmed yet, but John Ceders posted on Facebook about him.
Hmmmmm. sounds highly unlikely methinks. Any one know what was posted about this?I read John Cedars' blog...and while he didn't actually say "disfellowshipped", he did infer that it would be interesting if TM3 were "stripped of his lofty position.... because his outspokenness is making him a liability to the organization." He also said that he hoped that wouldn't happen, because he would like to see this behavior cause the organization to "implode", and went on to cite several ridiculous made-up things that Tight Pants Tony has blathered on about as though it were the "Word of God."
I would have thought AM3rd is probably a bully so the other popes will cowtow to the twat. He is no more being DF'd than I am flying to the moon. I hope the GB come out with more stupidity like this. Not only is it entertaining but it should be a red flag to JWs still trapped in the cult.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
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Goodness me BillyAndyAndy'sFoundSluttyGirlsInTightPants .................... they're not Kim Kardashian's love children are they?
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Check this out for 'tight'!
google painted on jeans!
I couldn't get the pic up from my Ipad
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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Billy Sugger wrote:
here's some sisters preparing to go out on field service, they are just about to read the daily text together......
image
Whoa................there's the sound of Billy running to find his ministry bag smiley: smokin
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status offlineJoe Magarac
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What I said about this in another thread:
There are some other religions where tight pants would be a no-no,
but are there any other religions where it would be a gay conspiracy?
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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I'm just surfing ... trying to find some humor with all the insanity of having been raised in a cult.
Hey, my husband at age 68 still looks good in jeans...tight fitting as they may be around his belly, his ass still looks good with wrinkles. Because he is still my "sexy thing" and we love each other. Hell, he remembers when my boobies were on my chest and not my stomachsmiley: frown.
People such as AM...while preaching 'morals' that promote hate; although his elk doesn't give any of us credit for having morals since we don't belong to his church - simply kiss my arse and I'd hope to never hear what a sick moral person you were; unless you're willing to hone up to how you were before "Finding Jehovah" that is now going to save everyone.
I'm not sure that in all of my years of research how many of the Governing Body actually admitted they helped create the monster. And for those that did help expose the truth about The Truth, they would be demonized.
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A favourite quote of mine from Dr Who is: Give a monkey control of its environment it will fill the world with bananas.
Just what the GB are doing!
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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You know Punkie, they would fill the world with bananas..forgetting others like apples, oranges and other things.
I'm struggling at the moment for how to deal with fence-rider but I've been given a lot of good advice. It's not easy because I'm not going to play by her rules of conduct.
She went to a special meeting, listening to AM...and of course she comes home with all the advise any of us need for being modest. I'm simply tired of the JW spin and how they want to control the world.
She was rather shocked that I had read about AM...and I tell her all the time about you precious people that aren't judging someone for not being a JW and we try keeping informed.
I know it's difficult for her but she needs IMO, get over judging how others live their life when it conflicts with her belief.
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GB Moron Anthony Morris III Claims The Gays Made Tight Jeans To Turn You Gay
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This just in:
Your jeans can make you gay but your genes can't.
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
status onlineAndriaSyxx
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auth wrote:
This just in:
Your jeans can make you gay but your genes can't.
woohoo
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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No! This is a breakthrough discovery!
Fresh from the lab at "Awake university".
It was only announced after rigorous testing,
That was wrongly reported as child molesting.
So when you hear Dr. Morris say,
Your trouser's caress will make you gay,
This was likely already known quite well,
By many young men at Bethel.
I hope this preview made you drool.
You'll learn all this at theocratic school.
Others ask for theses we accept bull-faeces.
A course in bunk, you'll never flunk.
There's only one academic crime,
Don't use your mind a single time.
Or we'll kick you out of our sight,
Faster than you can say "New Light"!
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
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OMG Auth ... I cannot believe you managed to rhyme something with 'child molesting'! Well done you Bow down before you
Love the poem!!!! bow down
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineKefka6
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@ auth that was beautiful. Bravo
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LOL, thanks guys!
I was just in the mood for a little satirical GB bashing.
They give us so much ammunition by saying so much nonsense.
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
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You'll love the video on NEW light! LOL
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You'll love the video on NEW light! LOL
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Too funny!!! Thanks for posting!
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I hopefully caught the humor but after listening to what's his name, the humor left.
Thank you Inspector D for posting. It's a reminder for why I hate that religion. It doesn't matter how sincere any of us are - they want total control over our lives and unless we can speak according to their rules - we are damned.
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Judicial Committee Meeting recorded
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offlineCacky
Judicial Committee Meeting recorded
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Nov 5 14 11:42 AM
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Go to youtube and search for "apostacy trial - part 3" and part 4. A guy who was brought into a judicial committee meeting for apostacy recorded the meeting by hiding his phone inside his tie. The two parts are about 50 minutes, but it was very interesting. Parts one and two just show how he got his phone placed in his tie, how he did it. I thought it was really interesting.
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Yes I listened to this a while back Cathy..............I was totally absorbed by it!! Listening to their attitudes toward him made me feel so angry (as well as physically sick).........no wonder they don't want anyone to record these 'kangeroo courts'.........they're disgusting smiley: sick
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...and there will be more to follow too. They really will have to be careful now.
Regards Paul (MDA - Mentally diseased apostate)!
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
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Ha! Brilliant move. I often wonder why it's a one-way street with that lot. No other person is usually allowed into a judicial committee ... which smacks of hierarchy and bullshit given the almighty god himself is supposed to be the only one passing out judgment ...... yet the elders clump together in groups!
They WILL have to be careful ..... there are all kinds of tiny little pen like recording AND visual devices. It's a wonder those YouTube movies haven't been taken down yet .... the great publishing company is on the prowl for negative stuff at the moment and seem to be having some success in closing things down or having them removed. Or worse still ... having links removed and changed ... leading people to their new online campaign headquarters!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Now they're probably going to invest in metal detectors for such meetings!
status offlineHugoVonStype.paleoplanet69529
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Having listened/watched these videos, I think the guy who was the subject of the Judicial Committee put forward his points very well, and he obviously had the elders on the back foot. They probably expected a quick 'in and out' meeting, but clearly they were thrown and couldn't give him any substantial answers. The other side of the coin is, as I am sure we would all have expected that they had an agenda and he was pre-judged before he walked through the door.
Having been the subject of one of these kangaroo courts in my past (for smoking a cigarette just under a whole year after I had left the organisation), I know the whole 'we're here to help you brother' routine, just means you are expected to admit your guilt and throw yourself at their mercy, nothing else will do.
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Having been in the org for 42 years and being 4th generation, I totally get it. It's so sad. I think yeah people like me and you just want to love each other and we got along with all this ? for so long and then something pulled us away- and it all worked out because it was a wake-up it happened because it had to happen some time. and it happened when it did and it was right. You had to be pushed. You (is it Eric) He did a good job. Right at the time I was df'd in 1999 I saw that the Watchtower had a photo and commentary showing the members of the governing body autographing Bibles(copies of the NW translation) in Cuba). I thought they have gone too far. I also thought it was really wrong when my children were baptized and they had added that baptism addition - something like in accordance with the faithful and discreet slave". Yes they want to take what belongs to God and they want to control you beyond.... they are not capable of reasoning on this level. They consider anyone who does so contentious and a trouble maker. What is wrong is that you do not belong there because you think. Be glad you are out, you escaped. Now what? Don't stop trying to think. My heart goes out to anyone and all who are going through this. think of the hundreds if not thousands that have committed suicide after being df'd. The problem in part is that witnesses have felt safe and they are not safe. They have not been taught to use critical thinking skills. They have been taught to disdain anything if it's not in the society's literature. IN fact they cannot reason capably even from the Society's literature. They have been mind controlled and taught to be suspicious of anything and everybody. And they do it all sounding like those elders do. Their voices are soft but their words are harsh. They elevate the "faithful and discreet slave " above God. I said it before look at Luke 12 and read the scriptures on the "slave". You will see a different story than Matthew 24. Jesus knew what would happen. There is a faithful and discreet slave in many organizations. Jesus said that the kingdom of heaven is like a tree and all the birds came and roosted in it and fouled the tree. Also Moses and Aaron did not make it into the promised land because they took credit for what God should have been given the thanks. I wish I had time to write that book. I too lost my marriage my religion and had to learn to support myself and live alone and do without friends, love and they did their best to totally alienate me from my family. All my family eventually left over it finally. It was not over apostasy. ( I overlooked their's for the greater good of the kingdom for a long time) but it was over emotional and moral failure but I did survive all thanks to God, who pulled me up and puled me out. He'd had enough of it! take one day at a time and try to fill our life with as much caring for others as you can. I found Guy Finley's books helpful "The Secret of Letting Go" was a good one.
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to alexia,
I can't resist this. I heard after I left that a sister concealed an iron in her purse and sat behind a brother who had molested her daughter and hit him over the head with it during the Watchtower. I think it is the funniest thing I have ever heard almost! I guess the funniest thing was the post in another group that said some kid brought a Smurf to a meeting and it got up and walked down the aisle! So much for metal detectors
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Oh ouch to the iron across the back of the head Woman!!!! I guess that sister had had more than enough!!!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Canadians Upset Over JW School Situation
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Canadians Upset Over JW School Situation
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https://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/should-canadians-accept-pacifist-religious-205003597.html
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I can feel for the JW kid tho no matter which way it goes. Just another day to be freak for no good reason.
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So JW's cry peace and no going to war but they look forward to the day of their war god jehovah slaughtering the bulk of humanity at armegeddon so that they will get to
🌺 live forever on a paradise earth and pet lions tigers and bears, oh my 🌺
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
Last Edited By: whytebyrd2 Nov 12 14 8:20 PM. Edited 3 times.
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I feel sad for the jdub kids too. Back in my day .... I was the only jdub in my age group and I'd just be sent out of the class with a reference to being 'one of those'! Makes you wonder how many jdubs were in that school! I've been heavily involved at Carson's primary school the past five nearly six years ... and haven't tripped over a jdub at all. There are a few there ... but they're thin on the ground.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Recently I heard via: American media that can spin a good story...that in one state they want removing all mention of Christian/Jewish holidays because the school calendar didn't mention anything about the Muslim; and we must be politically correct Vomiting
Why2: Their [JW] hypocrisy never ends. Dealing with fence-rider and we are a military family - it's often disgusting how she can continue pretending to care about what is taking place and yet continues telling others how we should not have concerns because, as you mentioned, it's all about how Jehovah is coming to make everything right it's going to be fine and dandy when millions die because that's what Jehovah wants!
And people might wonder why we have no respect for that religion!!!OMG!!
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Hmm. I'm Canadian, and a born in.. I'd love to see an exit poll of these kids that they (the establishment) are supposedly trying to protect, 20 or 30 years on. Perhaps someone should poll the ex-jw kids about how they felt about standing out in the halls and being excused for the national anthem, etc.? The JW have a notoriously high turnover rate, even among their 'born -in' kids. What damage were those 'born in' kids forced to take, to protect their parent's tender feelings and delusions/beliefs? Considering that the majority of those kids go on to a life outside the jw org, is it a reasonable approach?
Treating all of the parent's beliefs as 'sacred' without regard to the children's welfare is politically correct, and is the 'easy road'. I do not believe that it is in the best interest of the children, or in the best interest of our modern society. Apply this lesson also to the Muslim, or any other that step outside the norms and demand special treatment. The needs of a secular society must be put ahead of religious, or superstitious requests. Full stop..
Moderators: this will probably end up in D and C. Engage!
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I also feel bad for the kid or kids that were the center of this situation.
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Interesting Article about why Children are Targeted for Indoctrination
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The sad, twisted truth about conservative Christianity’s effect on the mind
Some religious beliefs may alter brain function, making us more prone to anxiety and depression
“I am 30 years old and I am struggling to find sanity. Between the Christian schools, homeschooling, the Christian group home (indoctrinating work camp) and different churches in different cities, I am a psychological, emotional and spiritual mess.” –A former Evangelical
If a former believer says that Christianity made her depressed, obsessive, or post-traumatic, she is likely to be dismissed as an exaggerator. She might describe panic attacks about the rapture; moods that swung from ecstasy about God’s overwhelming love to suicidal self-loathing about repeated sins; or an obsession with sexual purity.
A symptom like one of these clearly has a religious component, yet many people instinctively blame the victim. They will say that the wounded former believer was prone to anxiety or depression or obsession in the first place—that his Christianity somehow got corrupted by his predisposition to psychological problems. Or they will say that he wasn’t a real Christian. If only he had prayed in faith believing or loved God with all his heart, soul and mind, if only he had really been saved—then he would have experienced the peace that passes all understanding.
But the reality is far more complex. It is true that symptoms like depression or panic attacks most often strike those of us who are vulnerable, perhaps because of genetics or perhaps because situational stressors have worn us down. But certain aspects of Christian beliefs and Christian living also can create those stressors, even setting up multigenerational patterns of abuse, trauma, and self-abuse. Also, over time some religious beliefs can create habitual thought patterns that actually alter brain function, making it difficult for people to heal or grow.
The purveyors of religion insist that their product is so powerful it can transform a life, but somehow, magically, it has no risks. In reality, when a medicine is powerful, it usually has the potential to be toxic, especially in the wrong combination or at the wrong dose. And religion is powerful medicine!
In this discussion, we focus on the variants of Christianity that are based on a literal interpretation of the Bible. These include Evangelical and fundamentalist churches, the Church of Latter Day Saints, and other conservative sects. These groups share the characteristics of requiring conformity for membership, a view that humans need salvation, and a focus on the spiritual world as superior to the natural world. These views are in contrast to liberal, progressive Christian churches with a humanistic viewpoint, a focus on the present, and social justice.
Religion Exploits Normal Human Mental Processes.
To understand the power of religion, it is helpful to understand a bit about the structure of the human mind. Much of our mental activity has little to do with rationality and is utterly inaccessible to the conscious mind. The preferences, intentions and decisions that shape our lives are in turn shaped by memories and associations that can get laid down before we even develop the capacity for rational analysis.
Aspects of cognition like these determine how we go through life, what causes us distress, which goals we pursue and which we abandon, how we respond to failure, how we respond when other people hurt us—and how we respond when we hurt them. Religion derives its power in large part because it shapes these unconscious processes: the frames, metaphors, intuitions and emotions that operate before we even have a chance at conscious thought.
Some Religious Beliefs and Practices are More Harmful Than Others.
When it comes to psychological damage, certain religious beliefs and practices are reliably more toxic than others.
Janet Heimlich is an investigative journalist who has explored religious child maltreatment, which describes abuse and neglect in the service of religious belief. In her book, Breaking their Will, Heimlich identifies three characteristics of religious groups that are particularly prone to harming children. Clinical work with reclaimers, that is, people who are reclaiming their lives and in recovery from toxic religion, suggests that these same qualities put adults at risk, along with a particular set of manipulations found in fundamentalist Christian churches and biblical literalism.
1) Authoritarianism, creates a rigid power hierarchy and demands unquestioning obedience. In major theistic religions, this hierarchy has a god or gods at the top, represented by powerful church leaders who have power over male believers, who in turn have power over females and children. Authoritarian Christian sects often teach that “male headship” is God’s will. Parents may go so far as beating or starving their children on the authority of godly leaders. A book titled, To Train Up a Child, by minister Michael Pearl and his wife Debi, has been found in the homes of three Christian adoptive families who have punished their children to death.
2) Isolation or separatism, is promoted as a means of maintaining spiritual purity. Evangelical Christians warn against being “unequally yoked” with nonbelievers in marriages and even friendships. New converts often are encouraged to pull away from extended family members and old friends, except when there may be opportunities to convert them. Some churches encourage older members to take in young single adults and house them within a godly context until they find spiritually compatible partners, a process known by cult analysts as “shepherding.” Home schoolers and the Christian equivalent of madrassas cut off children from outside sources of information, often teaching rote learning and unquestioning obedience rather than broad curiosity.
3) Fear of sin, hell, a looming “end-times” apocalypse, or amoral heathens binds people to the group, which then provides the only safe escape from the horrifying dangers on the outside. In Evangelical Hell Houses, Halloween is used as an occasion to terrify children and teens about the tortures that await the damned. In the Left Behind book series and movie, the world degenerates into a bloodbath without the stabilizing presence of believers. Since the religious group is the only alternative to these horrors, anything that threatens the group itself—like criticism, taxation, scientific findings, or civil rights regulations—also becomes a target of fear.
Bible Belief Creates an Authoritarian, Isolative, Threat-based Model of Reality
In Bible-believing Christianity, psychological mind-control mechanisms are coupled with beliefs from the Iron Age, including the belief that women and children are possessions of men, that children who are not hit become spoiled, that each of us is born “utterly depraved”, and that a supernatural being demands unquestioning obedience. In this view, the salvation and righteousness of believers is constantly under threat from outsiders and dark spiritual forces. Consequently, Christians need to separate themselves emotionally, spiritually, and socially from the world. These beliefs are fundamental to their overarching mental framework or “deep frame” as linguist George Lakoff would call it. Small wonder then, that many Christians emerge wounded.
It is important to remember that this mindset permeates to a deep subconscious level. This is a realm of imagery, symbols, metaphor, emotion, instinct, and primary needs. Nature and nurture merge into a template for viewing the world which then filters every experience. The template selectively allows only the information that confirms their model of reality, creating a subjective sense of its veracity.
On the societal scale, humanity has been going through a massive shift for centuries, transitioning from a supernatural view of a world dominated by forces of good and evil to a natural understanding of the universe. The Bible-based Christian population however, might be considered a subset of the general population that is still within the old framework, that is, supernaturalism.
Children are Targeted for Indoctrination Because the Child Mind is Uniquely Vulnerable.
“Here I am, a fifty-one year old college professor, still smarting from the wounds inflicted by the righteous when I was a child. It is a slow, festering wound, one that smarts every day—in some way or another…. I thought I would leave all of that “God loves… God hates…” stuff behind, but not so. Such deep and confusing fear is not easily forgotten. It pops up in my perfectionism, my melancholy mood, the years of being obsessed with finding the assurance of personal salvation.”
Nowhere is the contrast of viewpoints more stark than in the secular and religious understandings of childhood. In the biblical view, a child is not a being that is born with amazing capabilities that will emerge with the right conditions like a beautiful flower in a well-attended garden. Rather, a child is born in sin, weak, ignorant, and rebellious, needing discipline to learn obedience. Independent thinking is dangerous pride.
Because the child’s mind is uniquely susceptible to religious ideas, religious indoctrination particularly targets vulnerable young children. Cognitive development before age seven lacks abstract reasoning. Thinking is magical and primitive, black and white. Also, young humans are wired to obey authority because they are dependent on their caregivers just for survival. Much of their brain growth and development has to happen after birth, which means that children are extremely vulnerable to environmental influences in the first few years when neuronal pathways are formed.
By age five a child’s brain can understand primitive cause-and-effect logic and picture situations that are not present. Children at this have a tenuous grip on reality. They often have imaginary friends; dreams are quite real; and fantasy blurs with the mundane. To a child this age, it is eminently possible that Santa Claus lives at the North Pole and delivers presents if you are good and that 2000 years ago a man died a horrible death because you are naughty. Adam and Eve, Noah’s ark, the Rapture, and hell, all can be quite real. The problem is that many of these teachings are terrifying.
For many years, one conversion technique targeting children and adolescents has been the use of movies about the “End Times.” This means a “Rapture” event, when real Christians are taken up to heaven leaving the earth to “Tribulation,” a terrifying time when an evil Antichrist will reign and the world will descend into anarchy.
When assaulted with such images and ideas at a young age, a child has no chance of emotional self-defense. Christian teachings that sound truewhen they are embedded in the child’s mind at this tender age can feel true for a lifetime. Even decades later former believers who intellectually reject these ideas can feel intense fear or shame when their unconscious mind is triggered.
Harms Range From Mild to Catastrophic.
One requirement for success as a sincere Christian is to find a way to believe that which would be unbelievable under normal rules of evidence and inquiry. Christianity contains concepts that help to safeguard belief, such as limiting outside information, practicing thought control, and self-denigration; but for some people the emotional numbing and intellectual suicide just isn’t enough. In other words, for a significant number of children in Christian families, the religion just doesn’t “take.” This can trigger guilt, conflict, and ultimately rejection or abandonment.
Others experience the threats and fear too keenly. For them, childhood can be torturous, and they may carry injuries into adulthood.
Still others are able to sincerely devote themselves to the faith as children but confront problems when they mature. They wrestle with factual and moral contradictions in the Bible and the church, or discover surprising alternatives. This can feel confusing and terrifying – like the whole world is falling apart.
Delayed Development and Life Skills. Many Christian parents seek to insulate their children from “worldly” influences. In the extreme, this can mean not only home schooling, but cutting off media, not allowing non-Christian friends, avoiding secular activities like plays or clubs, and spending time at church instead. Children miss out on crucial information– science, culture, history, reproductive health and more. When they grow older and leave such a sheltered environment, adjusting to the secular world can be like immigrating to a new culture. One of the biggest areas of challenge is delayed social development.
Religious Trauma Syndrome. Today, in the field of mental health, the only religious diagnosis in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual is “Religious or Spiritual Problem.” This is merely a supplemental code (V Code) to assist in describing an underlying pathology. Unofficially, “scrupulosity,” is the term for obsessive-compulsive symptoms centered around religious themes such as blasphemy, unforgivable sin, and damnation. While each of these diagnoses has a place, neither covers the wide range of harms induced by religion.
Religious Trauma Syndrome (RTS) is a new term, coined by Marlene Winell to name a recognizable set of symptoms experienced as a result of prolonged exposure to a toxic religious environment and/or the trauma of leaving the religion. It is akin to Complex PTSD, which is defined as ‘a psychological injury that results from protracted exposure to prolonged social and/or interpersonal trauma with lack or loss of control, disempowerment, and in the context of either captivity or entrapment, i.e. the lack of a viable escape route for the victim’.
Though related to other kinds of chronic trauma, religious trauma is uniquely mind-twisting. The logic of the religion is circular and blames the victim for problems; the system demands deference to spiritual authorities no matter what they do; and the larger society may not identify a problem or intervene as in cases of physical or sexual abuse, even though the same symptoms of depression and anxiety and panic attacks can occur.
RTS, as a diagnosis, is in early stages of investigation, but appears to be a useful descriptor beyond the labels used for various symptoms – depression, anxiety, grief, anger, relationship issues, and others. It is our hope that it will lead to more knowledge, training, and treatment. Like the naming of other disorders such as anorexia or Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD), the RTS label can help sufferers feel less alone, confused, and self-blaming.
Leaving the Fold. Breaking out of a restrictive, mind-controlling religion can be liberating: Certain problems end(!), such as trying to twist one’s thinking to believe irrational doctrines, and conforming to repressive codes of behavior. However, for many reclaimers making the break is the most disruptive, difficult upheaval they have ever experienced. Individuals who were most sincere, devout, and dedicated often are the ones most traumatized when their religious world crumbles.
Rejecting a religious model of reality that has been passed on through generations is a major cognitive and emotional disruption. For many reclaimers, it is like a death or divorce. Their ‘relationship’ with God was a central assumption of their lives, and giving it up feels like an enormous loss to be grieved. It can be like losing a lover, a parent, or best friend.
On top of shattered assumptions comes the loss of family and friends. Churches vary with official doctrine about rejection. The Mormon Church, for all the intense focus on “family forever,” is devastating to leave, and the Jehovah Witnesses require families to shun members who are “disfellowshiped.”
The rupture can destroy homes, splitting spouses and alienating parents from children.
For Women, Psychological Costs of Belief Include Subjugation and Self-loathing.
Christianity poses a special set of psychological risks for people who, according to the Iron Age hierarchy found in the Bible are unclean or property, including women. Anecdotal evidence suggests that the combination of denigration and subservience takes a psychological toll on women in Christianity as it does in Islam. Not only do women submit to marital abuse and undesired sexual contact, some tolerate the same toward their children, and men of God sometimes exploit this vulnerability, as in the case of Catholic and Protestant child sexual abuse. But most of the damage is far more subtle: lower self-esteem, less independence and confidence; abandoned dreams and goals.
Why Harm Goes Unrecognized. What is the sum cost of having millions of people holding to a misogynist, authoritarian, fear-based supernatural view of the universe? The consequences far-reaching, even global, but many are hidden, for two reasons.
One is the nature of the trauma itself. Unlike other harm, such as physical beating or sexual abuse, the injury is far from obvious to the victim, who has been taught to self-blame. It’s as if a person black and blue from a caning were to think it was self-inflicted.
The second reason that religious harm goes unrecognized is that Christianity is still the cultural backdrop for the indoctrination. While the larger society may not be fundamentalist, references to God and faith abound. The Bible gets used to swear in witnesses and even the U.S. president. Common phrases are “God willing,” “God bless,” “God helps those that help themselves,” “In God we trust,” and so forth. These lend credence to theistic authority.
Religious trauma is difficult to see because it is camouflaged by the respectability of religion in culture. To date, parents are afforded the right to teach their own children whatever doctrines they like, no matter how heinous, degrading, or mentally unhealthy. Even helping professionals largely perceive Christianity as benign. This will need to change for treatment methods to be developed and people to get help that allows them to truly reclaim their lives.
This article was adapted from “The Crazy Making in Christianity” Chapter 19 in Christianity is Not Great: How Faith Fails, edited by John Loftus, Prometheus Books, October 2014.
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As the founder of the Roman Catholic Jesuit Order is reputed to have said, “Give me a child up to the age of seven and I will show you the man”. Implying that a child once fully inculcated as a Roman Catholic will remain Catholic as an adult.
Children and the lives they will make for themselves are a precious thing in human society. They should never be exposed to the toxic teachings of religion until they can think rationally and are able to discriminate between propaganda and facts.
It is cruel and abusive to indoctrinate.
A good find Sailaway.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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Thank you for posting...
It's been many years for me looking into Promethus Books.
I also appreciate the information concerning the Latter Day Saints of Jesus Christ [Mormon] because hubby has been doing more with them and I stopped attending; not going to the church even for him.
I think we understand why it's important for getting the children while young because it is about indoctrination...and any church...name your poison, they want their children to follow.
Because we live in a different society; it won't always happen because hopefully we've taught our children to think for themselves and they will deal with the fall-out as they get older.
Here are some quotes hubby found when doing research: "How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has been for us" - Pope Leo X 1513-1521
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for privilege of owning yourself".
- Friedrich Nietzsche-
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SailAway, thank you so much for posting this article. It explains so much in an irrefutable way. When you read it, you know it's true. I am saving this for the future, when I hope I can pass it around. Religion can be harmful!
Om........
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“Give me a child up to the age of seven and I will show you the man
Yeh HB............I can remember the jw's using this quote often..............funny how it now seems like exactly what it was...........a threat!! smiley: sick
Great article Di........thanks!!
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But the reality is far more complex. It is true that symptoms like depression or panic attacks most often strike those of us who are vulnerable, perhaps because of genetics or perhaps because situational stressors have worn us down. But certain aspects of Christian beliefs and Christian living also can create those stressors, even setting up multigenerational patterns of abuse, trauma, and self-abuse. Also, over time some religious beliefs can create habitual thought patterns that actually alter brain function, making it difficult for people to heal or grow.
How true!
It turns out my youngest son is an anxious, stress head type of kid ... and Gav will tell you I'm much the same. Given my own predisposition for worrying more than I should and having to control those feelings of anxiety without making it obvious ..... I wonder how much EASIER my life would have been had I not been exposed to the indoctrination from birth. The WBTS certainly heightened my fears and raised my anxiety levels with their constant bombardment of the whole doomsday crap. I dread to think how messed up Carson would have been by now had he been raised in the borg like I was!
Like many of us born-ins ... I have no idea what it's like to have parents who think clearly and logically for themselves. Jdub parents are led to believe that 'the brothers' know what is right for everyone's children and that 'the brothers' have the 'obligation' to step in when it comes to child rearing. The books are targeting kids ... now they have those insidious animated characters in little movies to suck the young ones in. I'm glad I'm out ... and I'll never let anyone indoctrinate my kids. They have to go through me first and that is NOT easy!!!
Great find there Diane!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Had to share this title. 1914 to 2014 the end of an error. VERY big error!
http://ex-jw.com/celebrate-1914-to-2014-the-end-of-an-error
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Thanks Walkaway ...... looks like there's a new website set up by Barbara Anderson and her crew. It's really good ... I've just been in there.
On October 2, 1914, Charles Taze Russell, founder of the Watch Tower, announced that “The Gentile Times have ended!”
None of his expectations about 1914 came true, but Jehovah’s Witnesses have continually accepted updates to the “1914 doctrine, allowing them to cling to that date for 100 years. But the Watch Tower’s grip on 1914 is coming loose.
One of the most basic ideas behind the “1914 doctrine” was that no one would be questioning it 100 years later. The very definition of the “1914 generation” that would live to see Armageddon has required numerous doctrinal “adjustments” as the years have passed. The 100-year milestone has, therefore, become more like a “millstone” around the Watchtower’s neck.
So while the Watch Tower Society ostensibly celebrates, it is really only highlighting its own errors.
That’s why we’re announcing a new web site: http://www.ad1914.com/ (available online October 1, 2014). This website truly celebrates the life experiences of so many Jehovah’s Witnesses who studied the matter closely “to see whether these things were so.” (Acts 17:11)
New link to AD1914 is available by clicking right .... HERE ....
Wonder how long it will be before the WBTS trolls start trying to shut that website down. I guess you can't hide from the REAL truth eh!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Marvellous. There is also a face book page: https://www.facebook.com/ad1914
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2014 was a date I had set in my own head as being about as long as I'd wait before Armageddon. I did not think growing up that it would be possible for it to occur after 2014.
-Dave
“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy.' They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
- John Lennon
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I thought the same about 2000 - growing up I couldn't imagine going past that point, now I'm amazed we are at 2014 and so many in the bOrg just keep marching right along.....
Om........
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I was told it would be 1975 ... there was no doubt. The world would be ending in October 1975. That's a while ago now!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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offlinewomanbeyondtime
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I have a long standing question. I am not looking for a reiteration of the story of Abel and Cain. Where did Abel get the idea of a blood sacrifice of a life? Surely not out of nowhere. If he had dreamed it up on his own, I think he would have been at least weird if not a psychopath. I must say that this is also an excellent example of where we do not see the full story in the Bible. There is a mystery here. Are there any books that have delved into this The history of blood sacrifices and their significance?
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Cain and Abel are more likely telling a story of the end of the nomadic lifestyle.
Cain, the farmer, and Abel the nomad. The name Cain is also referring to metalworking. Genesis 4:22 refers to "Tubal-cain, an instructor of every artificer in brass and iron"
The story of Cain getting jealous and killing Abel is a remnant of old folk tales of how settled farmers, and they civilisation took over the nomadic lifestyle.
Able means "puff of smoke" in Hebrew.. Perhaps showing the futility of nomadic life vs farmers
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Yes this is what I want to hear . Can I ask for the source of the information? I am quite interested in the origin of words. etc. Any other thoughts on why the blood sacrifices were carried over into the story of Abraham offering up Isaac etc then other accounts. I can't think offhand until the law covenant and the requirement for sacrifices. and that they had to be blood for the most part. When the law code was given blood sacrifices were already being done and not of course just by the Israelites. The Bible says that God said that he put blood on the altar for us. but it certainly doesn't tell how it all began. I feel it is you said had to have begun before the story of Cain and Abel. Very interesting roots of words. Not to get off the subject too much but I went to a synagogue and did a little research. I found that the phrase "and God breathed into man the breath of life and man came to be a living soul" is a phrase that is only found that one time in the Bible and really the original understanding of it is now lost. I for one do not believe that it was just a breath of air or a Frankensinian electric volt. Any insight into those original words? I have come to the conclusion for other reasons too that the body just houses a soul.
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womanbeyondtime wrote:
Yes this is what I want to hear . Can I ask for the source of the information? I am quite interested in the origin of words. etc. Any other thoughts on why the blood sacrifices were carried over into the story of Abraham offering up Isaac etc then other accounts. I can't think offhand until the law covenant and the requirement for sacrifices. and that they had to be blood for the most part. When the law code was given blood sacrifices were already being done and not of course just by the Israelites. The Bible says that God said that he put blood on the altar for us. but it certainly doesn't tell how it all began. I feel it is you said had to have begun before the story of Cain and Abel. Very interesting roots of words. Not to get off the subject too much but I went to a synagogue and did a little research. I found that the phrase "and God breathed into man the breath of life and man came to be a living soul" is a phrase that is only found that one time in the Bible and really the original understanding of it is now lost. I for one do not believe that it was just a breath of air or a Frankensinian electric volt. Any insight into those original words? I have come to the conclusion for other reasons too that the body just houses a soul.
Not too sure about blood sacrifices, but the Bible was written in the shadow of many world empires, who's religions practised sacrificial worship. Assyria, Babylon ect. Much of the Bible is written down from old spoken folk tales, so they got "updated" to fit the time period they were from. Nobody knows if Moses, Cain or Abel were real- the Bible is essentially unverfiable historically until Josiah, Hezekiah and Ezra where it meets real archaeological discoveries. Lots of the stories before that real historical period are influenced heavily by Babylonian mythology especially.
The origins of blood sacrifice are probably best found in Assyrian archaeology and people around that time period. I'll have to have a look at a few books when I get home about the breath of life but I don't remember seeing much about it from memory.
Good books to read, and the ones I used for the above post were Isaac Asimovs guide to the Bible and the book "who wrote the Bible" by Richard Friedman... and The Bible unearthed is a very good one by Israel Finklestein. In search of David and Solomon by Israel Finklestein is another great read.
Edit: There is a theory that I remember, that people felt guilty about killing another living being- so felt they had to "atone" for the right to stay alive. It would explain various ritual in some cultures over slaughter.
Last Edited By: nevermind 3 days ago. Edited 1 times.
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Yes there has to be some big history to this that of course is totally missing from the Bible. I will try to get a look at those books. This is the thing so much was accepted without real questioning. The study program of the JW's (having been in there for 42 years) is a sight to behold but as there is no "free discussion" it really is a type of brainwashing. As far as the story of Job, it is supposedly ancient, pre-Israelite, written by Moses and I think may not have been a real account, but an allegorical story to try to answer painful questions about the suffering of humanity. There are some excellent thoughts about the book of Job in the book "WHY DO BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO GOOD PEOPLE. Of course the problem with the JW's was that if you had too many questionings you were diseased and of course sisters were not supposed to ask the elders but their husbands. That did not work out too well for many "sisters". In fact if you are a woman why bother to think at all? So Nevermind. Have you read THE GODS OF EDEN? Have you read FROM THE ASHES OF ANGELS The forbidden legacy of a Fallen Race? also how about THE HEBREW PHAROHS. They will blow you away.
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I find that if you read the Bible very strictly as the jws do, when you no longer believe it just becomes a load of awful rubbish that you no longer want to have any part of.
When you read it as not literal, get some historical context and it makes a lot more sense. Not inspired, but just thinking of the time.
The book of job is a very classic read on old philosophy, where bad things happen because God basically allows them to, but then he brings good things too so you have to put up with evil happening to good people.. It's all for a reason.
Even if that reason is a supernatural bet between Satan and God!
To be honest we don't really have a better answer today, bad things happen to good people most of the time due to wrong place wrong time or just natural evil like earthquakes.. Something random and for no reason. It's things like that, that only make sense if you don't believe in a god.
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As far as the story of Job, it is supposedly ancient, pre-Israelite, written by Moses and I think may not have been a real account, but an allegorical story to try to answer painful questions about the suffering of humanity.
I took a class in university several years ago that was a exegetical study of the Old Testament. One of my professor's doctoral dissertation was on the book of Job. His thesis was that the book was written at a time that the Jewish people were in exile and not allowed to write political/historical treatises. He took the position that the character of Job was a allegorical device used to record the suffering of the Jewish people at that time. He also proposed that 'Satan' ('Job' was the first time that the word 'Satan' was used in the Old Testament) was actually a bastardization of the word 'sassien' (sp?) which referred to the Persian 'secret police' of the time.
Moses did not write the book of Job.
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Interesting about the Persian secret police. yes I only meant that Moses recorded it for the record of the Jewish people. It is obviously a very old story. There is a lot to this all beyond the scope of a forum like this but I appreciate your findings. It was a long time ago that I read that book by a Jewish Rabbi on Why Do Bad Things Happen to Good People. but remember a little about the attitude of the people that was accepting of tyrannical potentates. I understand your feelings about the Bible I think it's a mix. People back then had some communcation with some supernatural entities. It's a mix just like today. I think there was a message. There still is. There was guidance, There was interaction. There was a struggle between entities in the spirit realm and interaction between our world and their plane. I still believe that Jesus was for real. He really didn't get into a lot of things. He said, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly tings when you can't even follow what I am telling you now about earthly things. (paraphrased) At this point I am not really sure that Jehovah was the creator of the universe or if we are not dealing with angels that were put in charge of the earth. I do not say this lightly but after years of what research I have been able to do. If I live a thousand years I probably will not get to the bottom of it all. But I keep looking. At this point I just have to have faith that it will work out for the best for everyone. We do live in an astounding and complex universe. I see an order and beauty in the natural world and I am not seeing that in religion or government. The Witnesses have over simplified again and again to their own ruin. Then they try to make up for that by legalzing things to make it look like they really know something or have authority. Religion has caused the worst deception and bloodshed and the branches of religion that came out of the Abrahamic root are the most contentious. It began with a promise that led to genocide and racial and nationalistic superiority and then to evangelization that ultimately led to more bloodshed. I know the main message is good but it has been endlessly distorted. I do see what is going on.
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I only meant that Moses recorded it for the record of the Jewish people.
I don't agree.
The notion that Moses actually was a character who 'recorded' any of the Old Testament is a myth. Serious Biblical scholars will disagree with you.
WBT, I admire your quest for knowledge. You have some interesting concepts about the origin of our world, and there are many theories out there to explore.
You may want to think about this statement: "I know the main message is good ". If you weigh that viewpoint against your statement that "...the branches of religion that came out of the Abrahamic root are the most contentious. It began with a promise that led to genocide and racial and nationalistic superiority and then to evangelization that ultimately led to more bloodshed" , you may want to consider how deceptive that 'main message' actually is.
I am reminded of this statement that I have heard on occasion: "He really is a good guy, he just hits me once in a while." The bottom line, though, is that abuse is abuse, regardless of the victim's view of the perpetrator. (**please don't take this statement as a statement about you personally, WBT....I only mean it in a general sense and as an illustrative device. smiley: smile)
There are many books in our world that have 'good messages' besides the Bible. The claim of delivering a good message is not exclusive to that particular collection of books. Good messages abound in literature that has no connection whatsoever to that iconic complication of writings. Just the same as there are good guys out there that don't hit women.
If I live a thousand years I probably will not get to the bottom of it all. But I keep looking.
Keep looking, WTB - the journey is fun even if you don't get to do it for a thousand years.
smiley: smile
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ISIS is no different than the old Israelites
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offlineCacky
ISIS is no different than the old Israelites
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I just read an article about how ISIS captured a tribe of people, killed all the males over 10 years old, and use the women as concubines. The Israelites did that very thing when they'd take over people. And people think the Bible is about a loving God.
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It's all very interesting.
And yet we have the Bible believers that would do the same if given the chance...well, with ISIS, just do their bidding and find heaven. Just do what any particular religion preaches and you'll live in peace!
Not only is it interesting, it's sickening how so much hate is promoted - in the name of religion and of course [name your god].
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They're a bunch of blood thirsty murderous and highly dangerous idiots Cathy. They don't give a toss about anyone except themselves. They have mob mentality. They believe they are 'the' chosen ones. Opposition to what they believe in is met with dire consequences. Say anything negative ... they're being persecuted by the western infidels. They're pathetic. They're dangerous. They're like jdubs on massive truckloads of steroids.
The bible was written by men. Interpreted and reinterpreted by men. It's fictional ... and yet so many people in the world believe the only way to live is by the words of their bible. That's not love from god ... that's control of one group of men over another.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Sexuality
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offline3d808
Sexuality
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Hello everyone, I havenʻt been on here in awhile. Although I am not questioning my own sexuality I came across this amazing video today I wanted to share. I also wanted to say thanks to Sam,Rhonda,Tim,Cj,Valerie,Punkie and the many others on here that have helped me so much in my journey of recovery. Love you all, Derek
status offlinewoohoo
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That was very moving. Thank you for sharing.
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Derek ... that was a very VERY cleverly written movie! It's something kids should be shown!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinePauley4
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That was a good clip. Thank you for posting it.
I was in a situation some what similar back in the late 90s. Although, one's sexual preference wasn't as salient as it is in this film; one's sexuality was generally "known." It was a telemarketing call center, and the owner of the company was gay, and most of the floor supervisors were gay. Frankly, gay people had more status. It was a good experience for me, as being one of JWs, we were taught that homosexuality is wrong. Which also meant that I believed what they told me. I was "unlearning" what they taught me.
It appears that today the anti-homosexuality sentiment is becoming more institutionalized, rather than people openly showing hostility to someone because they are gay. I think this has to do with our government being too influence by conservative religion; and that lack of dialogue in our society with regard to sex and sexuality, particularly homosexuality. People do not like to discuss things on a deeper level. This is also true with race and racism. We don't discuss racism; in fact if you want to discuss racism or homosexuality, I mean "really" discuss it, you might be labeled a racist or homophobic--which could then turn into you being attacked.
On the bright side, we do, at least presently, live in an open society with regard to knowledge, so that one can still participate in their own learning and development with regard to these areas.
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Thanks Derek,
That got pretty uncomfortable for me, given my background and experiences.
For me, it's all about what expectations we impose on the kids. If there is no acceptance of who they are or what they are feeling, then tragedy can follow. So many parents have decided what their kid will be, before they have even met them. That is the big mistake. That big mistake often comes from religious authority, and is accepted without thought by many people. The truth is that people are born as 'who they are'. Many are not willing to be conformed by authority, to become what the parents want them to be.
For instance: I was born a 3rd generation JW from an exclusive JW family (strong in the truth.. ) When the faith didn't 'take', their behaviour was much the same as shown in your video. To be the' problem child', argued about and discussed as if not in the room.. while they try to bend you into the mould that they have decided you will fit. There is nothing more awful for an upset child than to have parents discuss about them within their hearing range.
Yes, I get it.
The rejection and hatred imposed by some people of faith, sanctioned by their religion, upon their own children.. it just boggles my mind.
However, I think that the fact that we have risen far enough over these things to understand and identify them says quite a lot about us as a community, doesn't it?
Cheers.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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It's been some time since reading and posting.
Personally, I don't care what sexual favor you prefer and hope not being judgmental. If, should anyone want telling me my sexual belief its to be denied because it differs from someone else - there might be a problem because I want accepting that we all just wanting getting along as long as no one wants to shot my sorry ass for having a disagreement.
Trying to catch up on things...it's been interesting. Love, Lin and John
Going to spend time 'surfing' because today is still cold and nasty for working outside and I'm not interested in working with cleaning insidesmiley: pimpsmiley: eyes
Whether or not any of us are acknowledged...know that everyone is loved for having the courage in sharing...although we may not always share on every forum.
We are all important ...something some of us never learned with growing up in that cult; that our life mattered when they tell us how we don't matter - according to their religious belief.
I also understand not all members are 'born-in' and that doesn't matter because they find us for hopefully find recovery from the hatred because of their association with that hate of JW.
Thanks Ronnie and others that help keep this site alive.
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I saw that video some time ago.
Gay children growing up within the Watchtower organization and within generally anti-gay society will face repression and the risk of believing a lot of myths about themselves.
The organization's whole view of homosexuality is wrongheaded. It is not an 'act' any more than being 'straight' is an act. A straight person can abstain from sexual intercourse and not turn gay. He or she would simply be a straight person who's not sexually active. Then is it reasonable to think that a gay person who's not sexually active ceases to be gay? Yet the organization defines homosexuality in such that actually denies the reality of the variety of human sexuality. They tell young gay witnesses that if they don't 'act' on it they're not gay and in doing so actually suggest that they need to act, in another sense of the word, UNTIL THEY DIE. This is tremendously damaging because the individual who's indoctrinated in that way can become trapped in a vortex of guilt.
It is the disconnect between the reality of being gay and the organization's myth that leaves a gay person within the organization with nowhere to turn. In a sense, it's only peripherally about sex. Abstaining from intimacy (and in JW land this could be merely amorous touching) with someone to whom they're attracted will not solve the core problem a gay witness has. The problem is that they're attracted in the first place and that's what they'll have to fix in order to 'please Jehovah' who knows what they're thinking. Despite their sincerity, Jehovah won't give a **** about helping them change and they'll fail to 'fix' themselves. A thoroughly indoctrinated witness will not think that it's because Jehovah doesn't exist or doesn't care that they're gay. They'll think it's because they're already doomed.
Now if heterosexual witnesses were expected to feel worthy of death whenever they thought of marriage, children, a loving mate or that sexy college classmate they'd soon find themselves on the brink of a nervous breakdown. Yet this is what gay witnesses are expected to do for a lifetime because as long as they don't touch another gay person that likes them they're not gay (sarcasm). Just like other witnesses they're not supposed to masturbate or view any sexually suggestive material. They should either marry someone they'd rather not marry or remain celibate while going to meetings and out in field service (to recruit others into their hell) until they die. These are the totally unrealistic expectations of a crazy gerontocracy that seems to deny the very reality of human emotion.
Yeah, yeah, the 'Bible says'. The Bible says quite a few things that would be considered batshit insane by today's standards. It condones slavery (Leviticus 25:44), that's a no-no. It invites parents to stone disobedient children (Deuteronomy 21:18-21), hello child abuse conviction and life in prison. It commands that a virgin be sold to her rapist (Deuteronomy 22:28-29), WTF! The genocidal, homophobic and misogynistic nature of some of the Bible's content betrays those parts as the product of particularly power-hungry and insecure heterosexual men rather than any all-powerful deity. Oh, I forgot. We're not 'under the law'. Well show me where Jesus, who spent all his time with twelve men kissing them and washing their feet, said anything against homosexuality. And if you point out where he said 'the law' is still in effect then let the child stoning and rapist marrying commence.
LOL. It would be funny if so many people didn't take it so very seriously a few millennia later.
The fact that modern English doesn't have a consistent neuter gender whereas Old English does might say something about where society started and where it ended up. I haven't researched it, just speculation. Old English, a language we wouldn't recognize, had three grammatical genders, masculine, feminine, and neuter. The word neuter has a similar sense to neutral. That is, neither one nor the other. Maybe their 'pagan' worldview allowed for that and it was reflected in language. Now there is little middle ground. It's all about boxes and opposition. A JW 'sister' can't teach, only 'brothers' can take they lead, gays can't exist at all.
I encourage any JW who's laboring under these constraints, is doubting their validity, and stumbled on this post, to take it as a starting point for exploration.
Especially if you're gay, the right to exist is the best gift you can give yourself. You don't have to become a different person according to any new label.
Just come to know that your existence is not conditional on being what you are not. That is fallacious ... and hellacious. :)
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
Last Edited By: auth Aug 22 14 11:55 AM. Edited 3 times.
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Great video. Also, auth really enjoy your post. Being gay as a JW was very stressful for me. Of course I kept it under wraps for a long time but I ALWAYS had some "friends" who I could "be myself with"...
I usually don't like to judge or make assumptions but if any current JW or ex-JW really looks back at the number of friends they had that acted more masculine and/or feminine I felt they were homosexual and it's how they felt they could only express it. (EG: Brothers dressed in fashionably tight suits; voices/mannerisms were dainty, etc).
When my JW life came to an abrupt end by my gay JW friend feeling guilty about us having sex (multiple times at that!) the elders told me and I quote, "You can still be straight...get married to a sister, even start a family!". Noooo thanks!? I mean they can't comprehend I have no attraction to women and WON'T just to keep up appearances to stay JW by repenting my "sins". It is so hard being gay and keeping it a secret as a JW. Hell, if you find out that another JW is gay by simply asking or flirting and getting attention back, you BOTH know it will result in hooking up sooner or later....all that pent up feelings and you now finally found another JW feeling the same way...
As with anyone any sexual feelings are all normal human desires whether they are straight, bi, gay...it doesn't matter; YOU are YOU, no one should tell you otherwise. Anyone want to guess why I think men in suits are sexy?! ;)
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Great post auth.
Russ.
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Hey Derek I missed this thread cos I was away on hols...........yeh, this is how long it takes me to catch up lol!! smiley: smile
I'm hoping your visits here are fewer because you are leading such an incredibly busy and happy life!! Thanks for posting the video.............I know from first-hand experience with my nephew how difficult it is to 'come out' to those you love, for fear of being judged (and many times found 'wanting' smiley: sick) .....
.....and he didn't have the added guilt trip and judgemental attitude of the jw's to add to his stress!!
Let us know how things are with you when you have time.........
Hugs
Sam xx
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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Heck, I think men in suits look good too.
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Ahh Lin ... a lady after my own heart! It has been said that for a woman ... a well dressed man in a suit is like lingerie for men!!! haha
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Homeless desperation, forcing me in to dangerous jw waters
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Homeless desperation, forcing me in to dangerous jw waters
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Some of you may have read my posts earlier this year where I found out my jw dad was dying, so me and my boyfriend quit our travels, gave up our lives we had worked very hard to build carefully away from jw parents, and returned home to help nurse him and help with family business. A few months later dad died. Me and my boyfriend stayed on with my mother, mum had to do up and sell the house immediately to avoid bankruptcy and had so so so much STUFF to do and clear and sell, we all worked tirelessly and constantly. My boyfriend had a granny annex room in exchange for work, it was an uneasy relationship but desperate times and his vast amounts of self sacrifice made it work. I lived out in a caravan over summer as I never wanted to be considered living back in her house as had worked so hard to get away from that over the past 3 1/2 years. Eventually we sold. And achieved a huge amount of stuff. Mum has a cottage she needs to build and then she can move into it and settle down to a new little affordable life. I wanted to see her settled but the past 9 months have really taken their toll on me and my boyfriend so we decided to head off to Australia for the winter to find some live in work as we were going to have nowhere to live. For a variety of reasons (mostly my mum) we couldn't go this winter which has left us homeless. Mum managed to stay with a sister. I have had a couple of offers to stay with witnesses none of which i can take, because it is with witnesses but mainly because none would include my boyfriend and there's not a chance i would leave him to fend for himself and live indoors myself. He has a part time job or he could go home to his mums (where i am not welcome so also he doesn't want to leave me if we cant go together.) So we have a very basic converted van. It's ok. No heating so some tough nights! Now i would like to hang around since i cant get away, so i would like to see my mum settled, so there is still lots of work for me to be in the area for and for me to support mum and help ease her into life alone. This is my current question which i am sure you will all think is ridiculous for me to even consider it but complicated circumstances got me here and it has been impossible to think straight and this just landed on my lap. Now i am poor and homeless and need money and as self employed (who's business has failed mostly because helping family) get nothing from government so have no hope but getting a job. Whilst i was helping mum lots i went with her to a job occasionally to help earn her some extra money she was so desperate for to keep from bankruptcy. The job is fine however there are heaps of jw's working there. I kept helping occasionally and at the point of homeless desperation and needing a job instantly i was offered a few days a week there. it fell on my lap so i unthinkingly said yes. Now with me being essential to keeping mum going the past few months and keeping my head down and having drifted for a couple of years that people kinda vaguely know of, then people have so far kept their mouths shut on my not going to meetings and clearly having a worldly boyfriend. But if I now work with witnesses, spending so much time with them, that is going to wear off surely and people will start to ask questions (especially as he drops me off there so people see him). So all my hard work to get away and keep my mum could just blow up. Out of the country for a couple of years was my ideal but this has all kind of landed on me. I may be able to get a few weeks seasonal work but don't have time to apply, or internet or showers to look presentable. My man and I are now looking at working in exchange for accommodation and it is looking hopeful but i still need money coming in to be able to get away as soon as mum is settled. I have another option of possibly having a live in paying job nearby, but it is tough job. Part of me says its vaguely ok working for accommodation and then money in for easy job alongside jws. but am i just getting complacent about risk. I don't know what to do.
Last Edited By: janeblogs Dec 2 14 4:01 PM. Edited 1 time.
status offlinehalf banana
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Jane I think we all get into a pickle at sometime in our lives and you indicate you are planning to avoid being permanently in your difficult situation ... that's good! Have a vision and take steps towards fulfilling it.
The next thing that comes to mind is regarding JWs. I suggest that you never should feel judged by them. Hold your head high and do your own thing even if you have to work alongside them. It is them, not you, who must learn to be tolerant of differences and you have the advantage of knowing that they are to be pitied because their lives are curbed and prescribed and managed and messed up by the WT governing body.
I can’t supply an immediate answer for making money to live on apart from the thought of doing some training in an area of work you find enjoyable to get a diploma or the like to be more easily employed? Are you in the UK like me? (You say mum not mom!)
Nevertheless, I hope your situation improves and the time will come when you can leave behind the stupidity of the Watchtower organisation. And keep posting...
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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"But if I now work with witnesses, spending so much time with them, that is going to wear off surely and people will start to ask questions."
Yes...they will, Jane. You know how they are. But I have learned that it is a very "JW-induced" reaction to automatically assume we HAVE to answer them. We were taught from a scripture that "we should always be prepared to give an answer to anyone who questions us about our faith" (or something close to that), and I know it has taken me all my life to realize that I don't have to answer ANY nosy questions, from anyone, that I don't choose to. A very polite response might be: "Thanks for your concern, but I don't think it is appropriate to use the employers time to discuss my personal life." If they suggest talking to you outside of the job...again politely thank them for their concern and assure them that if you feel a need to discuss it, you will get in touch with them. You are an adult, you have a right to your privacy, and you have a temporary goal...to make money and get out of there! It might be uncomfortable for a little while...but you won't be stuck there forever. Good luck with your plans, and I hope you can move on with the rest of your life very soon. smiley: happy
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I'm sorry you're having such problems. I can't think of any other advice from what has been given. I am thinking of you and really hope things get worked out for you.
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You may be homeless just now, but your situation is a long, long way from hopeless. Meanwhile, a few suggestions for survival living: one of you get a job where one is fed as paid like Restaurants, nursing homes, etc. Volunteer at homeless shelters where they can provide parking, meals, housing, showers, and laundry facilities. Many churches offer groceries clothing, etc. for the indigent, the Salvation Army, even in our little county gives $$ for utilities a few times every year for those long in houses but barely making it. While none of these things may answer your problem right now, they may be useful. Being independently employed (house cleaning, window washing, pressure washing sidewalks and walls) cost little to start up, and can be advertised by putting cards up on nearby shops' notice boards). Whatever you do, I wish you well. Grandma Cee Cee
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Sorry to read of your plight Jane. Grandma Cee Cee's advice is brilliant and more apt than what I could offer as I am from Australia and our welfare system is set up differently to yours. I hope you are able to find a solution soon ... if you haven't already.
If you are still thinking of heading to Australia for work ... check out the Australian Government's immigration website first. That way you will read first hand if you and your man will be allowed to legally work and live in our country ...... we have some fairly stringent rules here, which if breached can result in immediate deportation and a three year exclusion from being allowed back in.
Let us know how you're going if you can .....
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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A wall goes up...
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offlinecursednurse
A wall goes up...
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Dec 2 14 8:41 PM
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It's been quite a while since I've come here but I have recently been experiencing something that I wonder if anyone here has also had happen. I would greatly appreciate feedback on this.
Just by way of a quick recap about my journey out of the organization, I was born and raised a jdumb with a single, mentally unstable mother in poverty, violence, abuse, and hypocrisy. I married a true believer at 21 only to live another 14 years in a loveless and verbally abuse relationship. After slowly fading away, albeit unconsciously aware that that was what I was doing, over a 5 years period, I divorced said true believer and left the only life I'd ever known. I basically shunned them all before they could shun me by walking away on my own terms. I have since been "out" about 12 years. I DA's myself about 9 years ago via a letter telling the organization to kiss my ass, in more civilized terms.
While I have not been tormented by doubt, or remorse, or fear about possibly making a mistake in leaving, I also have not felt that I needed to join another organized religion. I had moments of true belief on-and-off when I was younger and still active. I had many family members in the same congregation that I attended so I had to behave, as it were. Inwardly, I struggled with how deeply I really embraced the teachings I had been raised with. I secretly rebelled by having worldly friends, exchanging Christmas gifts, and wishing happy birthday to people I genuinely liked. I also had the capacity to reason things out. I think it was my need to analyze and think things through that ultimately saved me.
As a witness, I remember a mental wall that would come up as soon as someone confronted me with beliefs or ideas that I was trained to be opposed to, even if I was just overhearing conversations around me when I was out and about in life. It was automatic. All those years of brainwashing worked very well. Even though that mental block went up on its own, I never felt I was prepared to defend what I believed. I could walk-the-walk but I couldn't talk-the-talk, and most of the time I kept my mouth shut. I never talked about what I believed unless directly asked and even then I wasn't always forthcoming.
I spent a lot of time when I first left the organization thinking about what I believed, what I no longer believed, and if I felt I needed to believe something else. What I ultimately realized was that I did not feel compelled to believe in anything. After all, Christianity in most forms all share the same foundation of belief as the witnesses. God, Jesus, holy spirit, angles, demons, heaven, punishment for sinning, a resurrection hope, praying through Jesus' name, blah blah blah. The phrasing is particular to each christian religion but they all share the same foundation. So, I came to the conclusion that if the jw's is a cult, which I have also researched and realized, and I can't believe anything they stand for, AND other Christian religions, in general, share the same system of beliefs, then I can't believe in them either.
So, what I have found is that now I still have a mental wall that goes up whenever I hear or see anything religion based, christian or otherwise. I cringe when driving passed a church, or see people walking to the church on the corner, or even hear religious based conversation. I live in LDS country so trying to get away from talk of church is impossible. Just as when I was a jdumb, I keep my mouth shut regarding my own private feelings regarding religion. Only at this point in life it's because I feel I could lose my job. I am constantly uncomfortable with the mormon chit chat that surrounds me. I internally groan at the way "heavenly father" has blessed devotees with this or that. It is very distressing.
Have others here had the same experience? I can't seem to do the "live and let live" thing. I don't know if I will ever be able to get there. How do others deal with this? Thanks.
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I'm self employed and have a certain amount of control over what chit chat I am confronted with but I do hear what you're saying. I also have been out about 3 years longer than you and I do think I am feeling more relaxed around those faith based sorts of people than I was even 3 years ago...life is always evolving! Still, i definitly have that wall that goes up sometimes with something as stupid as a bumpersticker on a car. I guess I just try to laugh it off and think of all the logical rebuttals I can think of to stifle the irritation...it really is rather like a bad mosquito bite.
It's good to see you back cursednurse! I always enjoyed your comments. Don't stay away so long no, OK?
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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Hello there and welcome back CN smiley: smile
I could walk-the-walk but I couldn't talk-the-talk, and most of the time I kept my mouth shut. I never talked about what I believed unless directly asked and even then I wasn't always forthcoming.
Yep, that was me to a tee!! The fact that I was a pioneer made it even more pathetic!! Just a thought ...........I wonder if a lot of our reticence has to do with wanting desperately to be 'liked'...
I know the whole jw childhood experience, and always feeling 'different', definitely caused me to be a 'people-pleaser'............I still carry that trait even after all these years smiley: frown
So it makes sense (imo) that trying to please everyone, and being upfront (and maybe thereby risking confrontation) just don't sit well together......so maybe I say less than I should at times, in order to keep the peace............
I also had the mental 'wall' for so many years with regards to anything 'religious'..........it still tries to 'erect itself' even now lol!! But as soon as I feel it rising unbidden I purposely try to address it, and remind myself that it is the conditioning, rather than rational thought...
But I feel as you do...........at least so far as organised religion goes.........let anyone choose what to believe, but please don't try and tell me that anyone needs a 'guide' or 'mediator' to do so smiley: sick
Sam x
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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Hi Cursed nurse, I fully sympathise with your situation, I’m sure we’ve all been through it. The old WT boundaries stopped us going past invisible barriers...for a JW there are walls and traps everywhere you go...Satan is out to get you!
Thank goodness it’s all in the past but we were so programmed that we stopped thinking for ourselves and ran on Watchtower brand autopilot, bridling at any possible infringement of religious scruple. Damn it! How we hate the Watchtower for misleading us... and it takes years to get the stuff out of your hair..............but it does eventually go.
I’ve just been on hols in the Mediterranean for three weeks with a small group of friends including an Anglican priest...we get on famously. People, apart from mad cultists and Bible literalists, are usually well intended and think that religion is both a mark of being civilised and that it represents a desire for good in their communities. How about seeing their good intentions rather than being over-sensitive about the doctrines? (It’s all baloney after all and most of them know it!)
However, I completely agree with you that the reasons that JWs are wrong, applies also to other religions. The Bible is not divine, Jesus was simply the last literary incarnation of a fabled saviour of mankind and his death cannot buy back the perfect life that Adam lost since Adam never lived and never had a perfect life and all these characters are fictions. It’s a good story nevertheless and millions drink it in.............. but it’s just a story.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status offlinecursednurse
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Hi everyone.
Thanks so much for your comments. I appreciate the words of wisdom. I suppose I do take other people's beliefs too personally. I have to remember that other people's beliefs are just that, their beliefs. If it makes someone else happy, or comforts them, or even guides them in a positive direction, I can't really judge them. I don't have to agree with them. I can see them as people rather than just the church they attend.
"I didn't cause it, I can't cure it, and I can't control it." That's a quote from Narcotics Anonymous and it's one that my mother used as her personal mantra when dealing with my brother and his crazy life. I guess that can be applied in my own situation when I'm confronted with other people's belief systems. I probably shouldn't even use the word "confronted" as no one ever comes at me with Bible in hand and righteous indignation in their eyes. I'm happy for that. And many of the people I work with who are religiously inclined are relatively decent. I have to start reminding myself, too, that these are the people I secretly liked and made friends with when I was a jw. Forbidden fruit and all that.
Again, thank you for your feedback and advice. I have a good start for some serious self-talk when I feel that wall going up. I guess the first step should be to imagine that wall in a different light. I should imagine it as a chain link fence full of holes and a little flimsy. Eventually it will just be a sheer curtain.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Hi Sweetie..missy nurse. I'm getting ready to go to bed with hubby but I will come back later. Love LinBeating heartHello
I tend to take what my fence-rider says too personally. I'm still working on myself and know that being what she is can often trigger my anger towards the Borg that has separated our family. And yet she won't acknowledge that's it the religion that helped fuel the flames.
I've given up saying anything to her about this site and the wonderful people because she continues believing we're all [ hateful apostates ]and she's tired of the hate. Take a look at your precious god [Jehovah] is what I sometimes want to say but it's not worth my time and energy so I try staying away from her.
Don't think she'll ever join us...but that is her choice.
Although I want remembering we all have a right for making choices - it's how that religion has destroyed so many lives and then we're left for picking up the pieces of a broken heart; just too be further condemned.
I think to know that my sister is a very lonely person that won't let go of her belief in Jehovah and therefore is miserable most of the time. Instead of being angry with her perhaps I need finding more patience with someone that suffers from mental illness. And yet, I do not appreciate how those that struggle for leaving the religion are judged so harshly! It's not always a good situation and I'll not always keep my mouth shut.
Last Edited By: Linda Dec 5 14 4:57 AM. Edited 2 times.
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I haven't had the problem you described.
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Hi, Cursednurse smiley: wink Hope things are better for you.
Told you I'd be back...
This has been the week from hell dealing with my sister. We've spent yet more money bailing her out of financial problems. I've spoken with her one daughter, the bank, and an instructor for her taking an online class. I've also cried, been stressed, talked with her landlord and want making sure is is not hungry.
For some of our members, they seem getting over stuff faster - and yet they have a sense of obligation for helping others. We are all here for helping in the recovery process, knowing it's not easy.
I always want remind people to keep coming back because there is nothing anyone can say that will shock us nor will we do the shunning.
Sometimes I wonder how Ronnie and the Mods help keep this site alive...They have been there and continue helping us help each other.
I'll be looking forward to you posting again. Love, John and LinBow down before youBalloonsback to topic
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Hello Nursie my sweet ... lovely to see you again!
I have no idea how I missed this .......... so all I'll add is 'yes'!
No just kidding ... I can't stop at a simple yes now can I? Haha!
I have been where you are ....... only difference now is that I'm rather vocal about religion. Like super vocal when the mood takes me. I'm quite happy to label myself an atheist and to say 'I don't believe in religion at all ... I'm an atheist' ... just to see the reaction I get. It's quite odd as someone who knows me from my past will say 'but I always thought you were really religious ...' to which I will fire back 'my PARENTS were the religious ones not me ... I wasn't ever given a choice'.
I did have a look at other religions for a while ... probably because I thought it would counteract what I'd been indoctrinated to believe. In the long term ... I have found that religion just isn't my cup of tea. I don't feel the need to believe in something ... be it considered the truth or not. All religions say they have the one true religion and they can't all be right! Right?
If I'm questioned by a religious person with the usual 'oh well if you don't believe in god ... how do you think the world came into being?' ...... which I usually don't bother going into any more detailed an answer than 'does it really matter? We are here ... can't we just get on with it?'. It's not that I haven't got an answer ... more than I know I'm wasting my breath with some religious people and I really do have far more interesting things to get on with! Don't get me wrong though ... I really do enjoy a good religious discussion and I'm very vocal when it comes to all things anti-jdub. I'm not against the people ... they've all been as cruelly duped into believing they have 'the truth' ...... but the religious hierarchy knows better and choose to treat their followers like dumb idiots.
If it's any help ...... Gav and I are both diehard atheists. We find religion to be rather amusing and yet simultaneously very damaging ... to some. Not all. We have raised our boys knowing that some people need or want religion ... some people don't need or want it ... and others have yet to make up their mind. We have also raised them to have good manners, to be thoughtful, kind, loving and to do what's right. We've done this without making them fear some invisible sky daddy who watches over them 24/7 ...... we want them to behave and do what's right without that kind of fear hovering over their little heads ..... or not so little heads now they are both teenagers.
Not having religion doesn't mean you're a bad person. Not wanting to listen to the religious prattling of religious people doesn't mean you're rude or inconsiderate ... it just means you've had enough shoved down your throat in your lifetime and you'd rather talk about the weather!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Missy Rhonda. Last night I was ready to have John check me in into a psycho ward because I'm so sick of religion smiley: mad. I'm tired of playing by their rules of conduct when it is now taking things away from us where we cannot afford a much needed vacation.
When speaking with a lady from my support system- having been admitted to the psycho ward; she assured me that was the last thing I needed doing, so I'm just back to setting boundaries with those that would suck the joy out of my life.
Rhonda, you may not stop at a "yes" but we sure miss you and others when it's time to take a break.
With all this Muslim stuff going on - and it's insane IMO, I'm dealing with the Jehovah thing and now the Mormon. I'm sick of religion!
I read Scripture most days and it's very confusing how anyone can love any god.
I'm very proud of my surrogate grandson that is a member of his local Fire Department. Although he is LD, he has shown to be a kind person that will be there for helping others.
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offlinescottfreex20
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My first vivid memory in life begins with the word "Jehovah." As a child, everything I did was surrounded by that word. While being punished, most of the time it was because I did something in oposition to that name. Many of us are born with certain talents, some, with the talent to think. Being raised a Jehovah's Witness, my thinking capabilities became terminal, because my parents were terminal thinkers. They had a backwards view on life all provided by the teachings of the Watchtower Society. They constantly drilled it into me to accept their teachings. If that didn't sink in, they made sure it did by anything necessary; even cruelty. I was physically, emotionally and mentally abused by both parents, in the name of religion, as they tried to make me bend to the Watchtower stick. They punished me in an effort to create fear in me; the fear of them and the fear of their beloved Jehovah. They believed that the fear of punishment would paralyze me if I didn't do exactly as they wished. They had been taught by the Watchtower Society to use the (rod of correction) and I can clearly remember being whipped by my mother with an actual curtain rod while in my early teens. It left many stripes, something I will never forget. Another form of punishment that I experienced at the hands of my mother was a cruel one indeed. She use to sit on my head while whipping me. I couldn't breathe and I just knew I would suffocate. If she wasn't beating the crap out of me, my elder father was constantly slicing me with his belt; belt buckle and all. If I didn't know who Shadrack Meshack and Abednago were (if thats how it's spelled) at the Sunday meeting question and answer session, If I didn't raise my hand to answer a question, that meant that I didn't study my Watchtower lesson for that week. While beating me I alway wondered, who in the hell are these men that I'm getting my ass kicked for?
The emotional and physical abuse started at an early age and as I got older I found that it had left deep, long-lasting and hidden scars; anger, poor emotional development, resentment, and thoughts of suicide. Down the road these form of religious abuses interfered with my cognitive, emotional, social and psychological development. My parents made it very clear to me that I couldn't accomplish anything in life unless I became and remained a Jehovah's Witness. No matter what I did in life to better myself, they would never support it if Jehovah wasn't involved. As a result, I led most of my life suffering from low self esteem and was completly poor.
Once forced into baptism at the age of 16 I believed the Jehovah's Witnesses were a true legitimate religious group, but didn't know all the facts or the back stage behavior surrounding the organizations founder Charles Taze Russell, especially being so young. In fact as a child and teenager I never heard of the man. It was not until I got older and wiser that I decided to do research on the group. One thing I didn't like about them was the way they broke up loving families mine included. At 18 I was kicked out of the orginazation; I won't use the disfellowship because it's only a Watchtower word, it's not even in the dictionary and if you type it up on your pc it would come up as an error. Anyway, I was kicked out because I had sex with a young lady, a fantastic story that's told in my new book. Anyway, I was laced with guilt and had to report myself to them and admit my sin. I was taught from childhood that If I sinned against Jehovah's he would murder me one way ot the other if I didn't confess. I didn't want to tell on myself but felt so guilty. I was knocking on peoples doors telling them not to fornicate when I had just did so. Once speaking with the elders, at the end of the day I was kicked out.
That was the end of my life. Everyone around me including my parents siblings and friends turned there back on me. I was homeless, turned into a T-Bone Steak thief, drank plenty of alcohol, was a male whore and just running wild. I'm surprise I'm still here. I did return to the kingdom hall years later to be reinstated because I had no one and no where to go and was starving to death. But when I returned my brain started working and once I found out that the Watchtower Society was not under divine direction it changed my life for the better. Since leaving It has now been 40 years since hearing from or sitting at my parent's table for dinner. After the Watchtower, I have never receive one text message or an e-mail from any of them; including some of my still Witness syblings. To them I'm worthless and an apostate; a filthy creature. But I know who I am, one of the worlds most greatest men! I believe that only through deeper awareness and understanding can we hope to cure the wounds that religious abused causes.
Perhaps if enough people become aware of the doctrines, policies, and procedures of the Watchtower Society, they could prevent themselves and their love ones from facing what I faced my entire life!!! Someone has to say these things...it has to be me!!! This is only part of my story. I will post more soon. But if you want to read it you can visit my website at www.myroad2happiness.com. The book will be posted soon. It's called "My Life as a Jehovah's Witness "Used Abused and Forgotten." If you get a chance go to the comedy section on this site and view an excerpt from my book "50 Things Every Ex-Jehovah Witness Needs to Know." In this book I have a chapter called Learn to Laugh Again. Also I will share with you some excerpts from how I got kicked out of the Watchtower. I actually related what happened then to an old movie called The Invasion Of The Body Snatchers. Peace and love to all.
Randy
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status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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HI, Scottfree, welcome woohoo
I'm really behind on catching up with newer members but I did read what you wrote and it breaks my heart! At the same time I'm not all surprised at how life goes when dealing with the Borg.
It's not always the youth - although the mantra would be, "Get them when they are young" because we have others members that joined at a older age.
The one thing you can feel comfortable with on this site - no one is judging you!!! We all got tired of that and many of us changed our lives after doing what we did.
I'd hope you are on the different forums available because we often have fun times too Drooling The more you introduce yourself to others, the more you will find the love and humor.
Take Care and remember it does get betterGood Idea!
We're all getting to know each other and it's wonderful...although, I must warn you, we can have our spits/spats on occasionsmiley: nerd In the end, we have found unconditional lovebanjo players.
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Thank you kindly.
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Hello there Randy and welcome :-)
As a child, everything I did was surrounded by that word.
That sentence resonates with me, and so many others on here!! The saddest part is that, as a child, we didn't know just how abusive and controlling our experiences with the organisation were..........
You had a much harder time of it than me....mine was more concentrated on the terrible loneliness of being raised as a jw, rather than physical abuse.............but much of what we went through can only be truly understood by other who experienced it!!
And yet after all you have been through, and your time spent in the madness of finding yourself abandoned in the real world, you have taken back control of your life.......and even managed to use your experiences to help others by putting those events down in black and white!
You are a true survivor...and I am so glad that you found us, because you will surely feel at home here amongst survivors from all over the world....who understand, empathise, and speak the same 'language'......
Good to have you here, and I look forward to knowing you better
Sam x
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlineJourney
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Randy, thank you for posting. It amazes me what strength and power are available to us human beings. You are a wonderful example of that. You went through a horrible thing, but emerged from it as a whole man. I'm happy for you. Please, if you are of a mind to, come here often. Look around the whole site and post wherever you like.
Thank you again.
status offlineCacky
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Hello and welcome, Randy. Thank you for sharing your story. You had it more difficult than many. I"m glad you got out.
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I just don't know what to do-Can't win- 17 years trying to fade - 17 years of Hell
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offlineFence Setter
I just don't know what to do-Can't win- 17 years trying to fade - 17 years of Hell
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Aug 9 13 8:36 AM
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We used to be JW, Well I guess we still are because we haven't been DF. Our familys are strict JWs, elders. talks and service are the main goals in life.
First I'm married with children and both sides of our family are JW's, mostly my husbands side. I started studying at 18 baptized 2 years latter.
My husband was raised as a JW. We tried to do what they wanted but after we had children we couldn't do it any more. In 1996 we started going to
less meetings by 2000 we quit going to any except the memorial and the last 6-7 years we stopped the memorial. Wow talk about fading slow!
Yes a long time and no one can understand unless you live it.
Hell On Earth!!! smiley: devilsmiley: devilsmiley: devil
I talk to "Worldly Friends" But they don't get it. They say just tell our family and they will have to accept it.
Well, we have buried our heads and avoided the religion for a while, secretly letting our children be as normal as possible.
Letting them celebrate holidays, attend college, and have friends. We haven't seen my husbands family since 2007 and the contact we have is
phone calls saying our children will die at Armageddon and that their blood is on our shoulders, Anniversary cards that preach to us, and wonderful
letters saying we need to come back before we are destroyed w tracts, books and videos. The sad thing is that they do not send letters of a personal
nature, like what is going on in their lives, fun things they have done (unless it is service or Assemblies), what they have been up to...nothing. The last
communication included the Prodigal Son video, which I did watch and it made me puke in my mouth. Now my husbands family has informed us the are
coming to visit us during the Christmas break and stay in our home. My children are heart broken. So besides my children not being allowed to have Christmas
they will be preached to and interrogated. Our families do not know we celebrate, they only know we don't go to meetings. It's not going to be just a few people
either, we will have 2 or 3 elders (that are family) in our home with their wives and pioneer children. God----Help----Me!!! I know they will try to make us go to
the Kingdom Hall and stress my children.
Why don't you go to meetings? I love you and don't want you to die at Armageddon? All your other cousins are Baptized and we are proud of them!
The mental scaring they could do to my 5 year is is frightening. But we can't turn them away and say they can't come.
With all that said, we don't want to loss our families even if the small bit of communication and time we do spend with them sucks.
They are family and I believe family should love each other no matter what.
It will never end and the pain continues to follow, you can't escape.
My will and heart are broken. smiley: frown
Last Edited By: Fence Setter Aug 9 13 10:50 AM. Edited 3 times.
status offlineCadwaladr
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Aug 9 13 11:25 AM
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I agree, what you describe is a living hell, but most of it is of your own making. They won't shoot you or eat you; the most they can do is shun you, which is pretty much what has been happening anyway. It will end when you choose to end it.
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Aug 9 13 12:16 PM
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I can't imagine living in that hell for so long and then putting up with the crap that they will bring at Christmas time. If you don't want to tell them why then why don't you tell them that the dates that they want to come is not convenient for you. If they pry, which they will, you can say that it is a family matter and you don't want to discuss it but that you and your family will not be available for them to visit at that time. If you want you can then give an alternative date that is convenient for you or let them come up with something. Personally, I just wouldn't put up with it as was already said, they are already shunning you so why not just put a nail in it. Just tell them that you don't care to discuss religion with them and you are no longer a Dubbie. Or if you can't do that just put up the Christmas lights and tree and let them figure it out themselves. smiley: frown Sorry there is no fun answer to this one.
status offlineHeliaphora
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First of all WelcomeIt's unfortunate that they don't hold loving family(or at least the expression of love) in the same regard you do. Your options are limited. Keep your ideal of loving family regardless of how poorly they treat you and how much they disrupt your peace or accept that you can't love someone into treating you well and set some firm boundaries. This does not even have to be you cutting them off which I think would be only left as a final option. Everybody has had seventeen years to establish this as "normal". They need a grace period to either readjust or to decide that treating you badly is more important then contact. It is not unloving to end a conversation when the other is treating you in a way that is poor. Auntie Elderet is talking about you being blood guilty then a quick "I'm sorry Auntie that's not very loving I won't talk about this. How is Uncle Elder?" Auntie Elderet continues with the you are doomed spiel then..."Sorry Auntie Elderet I've got to go. Love you talk to you later." Hang up and repeat as necessary. It's standing up for yourself in a kind manner. My therapist taught me this and I wish I had learned this before my family cut me off. I can pretty much guarantee they would have still cut me off but I would not have reacted as poorly as they were acting.
Can I also suggest seeking out some family counseling for this. You are in a very unhealthy relationship with these people and I don't think you want your kids learning that the way the extended family is acting is acceptable and something to be tolerated.
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"We used to be JW, Well I guess we still are because we haven't been DF."
Hi! And welcome to the forum. The quote above from your story is the answer you may need to resolve. You have not yet determined whether you are still a JW or not. You see, it has absolutely nothing to do with what action they take against you, how they choose to view you, or what they say about you. It is a matter in your own mind, and a determination in your own heart that you are no longer a JW. It's not a matter of convincing them that you are no longer a JW---it's convincing yourself, and you don't seem to be at that point yet. But that's ok, as it is a journey, a process, an education, and a gathering of strength. You have been victimized, especially if this is the only way of life that you have ever known (as it is for most of us here) and the lifetime of training does not go away simply because you don't go to meetings and field service anymore.
I faded about 7 or 8 years ago, but I only became mentally free within the last two years, since coming to this forum. I knew I didn't want to be a JW anymore, but it wasn't until I learned WHY, and learned what it was about the organization itself that made me realize that they do not "have the truth", or are not "The Truth"... as they convinced us as surely as we believed that the sun would come up another day. I now see the GB like "The Wiz" behind the curtain, which has been torn away from them...and I see the pitiful, dishonest, hypocritical, actually impotent creatures that they are. They have no power over me...BECAUSE I WON'T GIVE THEM ANY. And it's not up to them, they are not in charge, I AM. I am not DF'd by them either, but I don't CHOOSE to be a JW anymore, and the freedom of choice is the gift I have today.
It's not easy getting to this point, but it can be done if you want your freedom and your life to be your own. And it takes time to learn the things that you need to know about them, and you have some work ahead of you... which will begin once you are really ready for this move. There will be sacrifices... many, in fact. Some of them might be friends and family, some letting go of concepts that you have bought into your entire life. Cadwaladr is right...when you make your choice, they will no longer be able to bully you. Your life is not your own now because you give them control of it...when you decide to control your and your children's future...it will stop! Good Luck (yes, we can say that if we want to, lol), and know that we are here as your support and backup in your growth and new life. We have a saying here..."Once you know, you can't un-know any longer"........
Last Edited By: cangie Aug 10 13 7:37 AM. Edited 2 times.
status offlineFence Setter
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inspecterD wrote:
Or if you can't do that just put up the Christmas lights and tree and let them figure it out themselves.
Aw, I love it and actually already considered this but I know I don't actually have the nerve. I wish I did.
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Aug 9 13 10:41 PM
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Hello Apostate--you named yourself already--so good-bye JW.
Now you must choose between your children and the in-laws and your parents.
Do your children want Christmas? Do you want your children happy? Do you want to see the joy in their faces when they open the gifts?
Or would you rather hear the elder family tell you that you and your children will die? Even without Christmas they will still say that, they already have. Do you really believe that? Do you want to see your children to be happy and grow up as responsible adults? Next, the elders will tell you that education and career is wrong--will you agree with them?
There will be no end to it, unless, you end it--politely and firmly.
“The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen nor even touched—
They must be felt with the heart.”
Helen Keller
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Hey Fence Setter,
I am from a family just like yours.
It sounds like your 'theocratic' family already knows well what you are up to, and is acting to intercede. Don't kid yourself. They know you celebrate Christmas already. That's why they are forcing this confrontation.
Your family is forcing a confrontation to bully you into validating their choices in life. They take your 'weakness in the truth' as a personal failing, and want to correct it. You can appease them and live a lie for a few more days, have a lot of awful tension in the house, deny your children Christmas.... or you can choose to let them know that you have a 'secular household' and no longer practice religion.
That they can still make us have to live double lives long after we leave the faith is ridiculous. Yet it happens. I did it myself, for many years.
The key is that you must reject the ingrained notion that they, or their "church" holds the moral high ground. They do not hold the truth. They do not hold the moral high ground. It is only the programming that they put in your head that gives them, and their church continuing power over you. That is what cults do...
I have learned that family contact comes back to pretty much the same level if you are faded, opposed, or just not attending. Their entire sphere of being revolves around the Kingdom Hall. If you go to meetings you have a family, and if you don't go to meetings you don't have a family. So you really have little to lose by being open with them except possibly gaining some peace of mind.
Last Edited By: Locutus Aug 10 13 5:25 PM. Edited 2 times.
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Hi Fence - Slater,
I know you're in a tough situation. My 2 cents worth (from my experiences with my own young kids) is it's time to let all those protective instincts you have for your own children to kick in - in a positive way. What do you want for YOUR kids. Do you want them to have a normal childhood as you see fit or do you want to see it interfered with/ dictated to by a lot of child unfriendly bs?
From my own experience I started to 'grow a pair' as we say in the UK when it came to protecting my own - I wanted them completely free from the cycle and it's up to your JW side to respect that - you're the parent not them. Your house, your rules ;)
Hugs - I know it can be tough
Cathsmiley: wink
status offlineRavenMad
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Aug 10 13 8:10 AM
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Personally, I would politely say that you are busy during that week or so, but you are free in jan on the ______ .
WHich is polite. Unlike what they are being. They shouldnt impose and its yours house and family. Therefore your decision.
Is hard but things improve. What's worse, more of the same shunning but with the the understanding of where you stand, or living a lie forever, and your kids too, and stressing that they will fine out?
Why let yourself be pushed around and let your kids think that behaviour is acceptable? What would you say to them if they were being treated this way? Im sure youd hate them to be undergoing the turmoil you describe of yourself. They are number one and theyre being hurt too.
That said I really feel for you. I know its never straightforward. Good luck!
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Aug 10 13 8:17 AM
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I want to add that it really irks me as this seems like a planned intervention. They mean well but its just so pushy and rude.
You're gonna need some insane courage to stand upto them and they need to know theyre out of line. It isnt right as there should be no compulsion in religion. I would be inclined to shun them until they behave better and act more like loving family. If you find it insufferable youre 100% within your rights to let them know this. And theyre hurting your children!
They have no right to dictate your life to you and its not very christian. Their duty as a follower of christ is to set a good example and show you how happy they are to make things more attractive to you.
Would also let them know beforehand that you consider it crossing the line to talk about religion to your children at all. It is your job only. Its normal and good to set boundaries. Would you let them smack your kids? No because its not their place.
Sorry if thats too much but its bothered me quite a bit!
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Aug 10 13 5:56 PM
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Locotus nailed it.
They know. Now you need to decide how YOU and your family want to play this.
"To have it come around once is a dream, to have it come around twice is incredible. - Declan Kidney (Munster rugby coach) 24th May 2008
---*---
This is the dark heart of the Heineken Cup - Stuart Barnes in Thomond Park January 2006
---*---
http://youtu.be/BFJ65Og3A2o - Was at this match with an amazing finish. You will see Cian (red hat) behind the women in this clip 6:50-6:57. G'WAN MUNSTER !!!
status offlineVancity
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Aug 11 13 9:23 AM
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the above advice pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter. I do sympathize with your situation as I have a JW mother and pretty much my entire family on my dad's side (except him) are cult members. I long ago told my mother that she's welcome to visit on Xmas if she can accept the tree, decorations, gifts and dinner which we have no intention of postponing or changing since it is OUR house and OUR rules...ironically the same reason I was given as a kid as to why I was forced to be a JW.
As much as you don't want to do it, eventually you will need to stand up to your family and tell them you are not JW's anymore. This seems like as good a time as any and is a perfect time to choose your children over your cult family who ignore you most of the time anyways.
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Welcome Fence Setter.
My two cents.
It is not fair to ask your children to live your lie.
This is not their burden to bear.
Let them have their Christmas. It is the least you can do for them. Your needs and desires should come second.
Step up to the plate and take one for the team...your children are counting on you.
smiley: smokin
“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”
- Susan B. Anthony
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I agree with Dianne .... it's not their fault that you were once entangled in that family-squashing religion but it is your right as parents to tell everyone else what you do or don't want for your own children. It's hard and scary to stand up to people who you love dearly ... but you don't have to like what they're doing and it's quite obvious that you don't like it.
Rather than hide around bushes or put up with what little contact they'll allow you to have at THEIR pleasure Sitter ... stand up for your kids and make sure they at least can live a life without fear, without emotional blackmail and in an environment where personal freedom and choice is normal rather than abnormal.
As Cad pointed out ... they're not going to eat you! The worst they can do is cut you off ... although by all accounts it's what they're hell bent on doing to you anyway with their constant bombardment of theocratic bullshit. Do what's right for you. Do what's right for your kids. And if your family members choose to shut you all out ... it is THEIR choice to do so. You are not making them do anything at all. If you let them know that your door is always open to them MINUS their religious crap .... then if they choose not to visit ... it is their choice. If you stand up for yourselves and for your kids ..... you can then change your name from Fence Sitter ... to Yes We've Done It!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineFence Setter
Perhaps I left out some details because I was afraid of JW spies #15 [-]
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First I want to thank everyone for their advice, it really helps to know people out there actually understand and have been in similar situations.
Although some of the advice may have seemed a little harsh to me at first perhaps that's what I need. My problem is I can't seem to find my balls.
I do want to state that I do not consider myself a JW. I guess the reason I said that I kinda still am is only because my husbands family and the
congregation has not OFFICIALLY DisFellowshiped us. I have researched for years about many issues including Russel, Blood, Child molestation,
cover ups, lies in the society, and know of horrible things locally of elders covering up horrible acts for these reasons me nor my husband want any
part of it nor do we want our children to be any part of this cult.
I did leave out some details because I was afraid of JW spies if I released too much info. But what the HELL! To add to my plight the reason they said they need to come
during Christmas break is because a JW family member (which is a child) needs a serious and dangerous surgery and amazingly no one where they live
(which is on the other side of the country will do bloodless surgery). They said a hospital close to us is willing to do it and they ALL want to stay with us.
By the way we where never asked if they could stay they just said they were. Another problem is that it will not just be the family with the child but ALL of them
and their families (12-17 JW family members). I'm terrified for this child and it makes me sick that they would let them die for Jehovah. Oh the horror and Holiness that
will be flowing through the air. Liaison Committee involved to make sure no blood is used and "Friends" coming to my home to encourage the family. I do kinda feel like they may be
trying to kill two birds with one stone and make this a surgery, and family intervention in one blow.
Anyway this is why I can't say please come another time. The surgery is a few days after Christmas and I wish my husband could tell them to just come then but
I don't think he can. He can't turn his back on them.
Honestly If I could afford it I would just leave and let them have my home and go stay with my family (that are not and have never been JWs) for the Holidays.
But formally being a JW and the awesome lack of education our employment opportunities do not allow us the have much extra money. Gotta Love the JWs!!
I do talk to my kids about this entire situation and have explained to them that no matter what choices they make in life we will always love them and never disown them.
They sadly know more about this religion than they need to. I have explained to them that this is not their burden, they have never been baptized and they are free from
it's authority. We hide the Holidays and my children (even my five year old) know we don't talk about it in front of JWs , but I hope someday they can be truly free. I hope
they don't have to be adults before they can be free completely. It makes me sick to my stomach to ask them to lie because we teach them not to lie in every other aspect of life.
I hate that they are burdened with our garbage.
I understand we as parents will need to end it but since it's not my family I don't want to force my husband to lose them. He was raised as a JW, which I think makes it much
harder for him. I only have a few family members that are JWs and they are not as pushy but if I was Officially Disfellowshiped I'm sure they would be good JW's and disown me.
It just makes me SICK SICK SICK that anything group, that considers themselves to be a religion, can justify doing this to people.
It makes you crazy and tears at your heart daily.
I welcome any advice.
status offlineFence Setter
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Aug 12 13 7:11 AM
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Locutus wrote:
They take your 'weakness in the truth' as a personal failing, and want to correct it.....
That they can still make us have to live double lives long after we leave the faith is ridiculous. Yet it happens. I did it myself, for many years.
WOW - "They take your 'weakness in the truth' as a personal failing, and want to correct it." you are completely correct. With my husbands dad being an Elder and over the years hearing him talk about other peoples horrible children that are no longer in "The Truth" he is trying everything he can to get us to comeback. Sometimes I think it's more for his prestige than for our souls. He alternates love bombing with hatred. It's an emotional roller-coaster..
"That they can still make us have to live double lives long after we leave the faith is ridiculous. Yet it happens. I did it myself, for many years."
How did you break away completely?
status offlineCadwaladr
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Aug 12 13 7:38 AM
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I welcome any advice.
There's no easy way out of this one, but you can be certain that this is going to put a strain on your marriage like you've not seen before if half the KH pops into your home for an extended stay.
I applaud you for seeking a solution to your problem so early on; you're headed in the right direction. Since you welcome any advice, my advice would be for you to have a serious heart-to-heart discussion with your hubby. Let him know in no uncertain terms how this is going to affect you and your children. I would even go to the point of letting him know that you will not be present if they show up. Since it's his family, he may be more prepared to endure it, but he may not be aware of how serious this could get.
Sometimes reasoning can go further than emotions when trying to convince a man. Explain to him that you would do the same with your family. And... Good Luck!
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Ah, FenceSetter....there is more to your story. smiley: smile
I am probably one of the harsh responses. Sometimes, though, a person has to realize that they have options before they can relax enough to draw on their strength to get through a really difficult situation.
Yes, this sounds like it will be hard - but not unmanageable. Take some time out - it sounds like you have lots of time to prepare - lots of discussions with your spouse and lots of personal mental preparation will see you through this. I understand your dilemma now.
Patience, Grasshopper - you have waited 17 years already - you can manage a few more months. Armageddon is not coming tomorrow. smiley: wink
However, if you don't mind this advice - make a long term plan that involves steps being taken after this family crisis is over that will allow you and your family the peace and happiness that they deserve.
Good luck.
*you could always celebrate the Solstice if that helps - it comes a few days before Christmas. Or...maybe you could do some research on Ukrainian Christmas. They celebrate Christmas according to the Julian calendar - January 6, I think. It could be fun to do a traditional Ukrainian meal ...Ukrainian food is pretty awesome.
smiley: smile
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status offlinesolitaire
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Aug 12 13 11:01 AM
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Hello there and welcome :-)
I talk to "Worldly Friends" But they don't get it.
and that is why I am just so pleased that you have posted here!! Everybody will give their honest opinions, backed up by their personal experiences...........it IS hard to extricate yourself from the hell that is the religion!!
I used to liken it to the good old Eagles song "you can check out but you can never leave".......but now I realise that is just how they want us to feel.......we CAN and DO leave!! That is not to say that we don't harbour residue thoughts and feelings from our pasts, but the best we can do is to try and learn from them, and make damn sure that we reclaim our lives as best we can, and give them the ultimate kick in the teeth, which is to strive to be free and happy!!
The greatest thing about talking to others on here is that they DO understand, they DO get it..........and I hope that being able to be honest with others who get you will be the catalyst you need to be truly free of their mind control........in the end it matters not what you 'lose' because of thinking for yourself.........cos this is life here and now, and those years wasted cannot be retrieved ........so get chatting, and breaking any final hold that you allow them to have on your life smiley: smile
Sam x
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status offlinecangie
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"Fence Setter"---you ARE headed in the right direction.. rah rah sis boom bah I thought of an idea...have you ever heard of "Ronald McDonald House"? It is a home-away-from-home for the families of children to stay in at minimal cost (or maybe free...I dunno) while the child is recuperating from an extended hospital stay. Perhaps you could contact the hospital where your family member is going to have the operation, and inquire if one (or some other charitable organization that does the same thing) is available for your family to stay in while they visit. You might have to start pushing back a little when they object "Oh no, we would rather stay with you"..."Sorry, we really don't have much room, and EVERYONE would be more comfortable if you stay at the guesthouse. I'm sure the other children will love it there.". It may take repeating this over and over and over...but they need to be worn down until they get the point. Even without the JW issue...this is not a very reasonable request, and would be a great inconvenience under the best of circumstances. (Oh, and you seem to have a bigger set of balls than you might thinkBasketball you'll be just fine.........Thumbs up!
Last Edited By: cangie Aug 12 13 2:02 PM. Edited 1 times.
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I just don't know what to do-Can't win- 17 years trying to fade - 17 years of Hell
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status offlinethehappygoat
#21 [-]
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Aug 13 13 9:51 AM
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Welcome Fence Sitter -
I'm sorry you are having to deal with all this. You have gotten some wonderful advice. The number one thing that strikes me is that your number one priority is your children. I have seen many ex Witnesses continue to screw up their kid's lives because they are, well, fence sitters. They are no longer active in the org., but they don't fully participate in all the good things the world has to offer. It seems to me that it would be a HUGE thing to take Christmas away from your children over this. And for what reason? So that they can barge into your home with the expectation that you will respect one of their worst teachings but they would be appalled and shocked if you were open about your viewpoints! How ironic!
You have lots of time to think of an appropriate decision. You must talk very openly about all this with your husband. You are right in that you cannot force him to lose his family. But you cannot be forced to accept everything on their terms. It is your home, too, not just your husband's. Surely there must be some compromise you can both make.
Perhaps use some of the money you would have used on presents and go to a fun waterpark hotel or something like that.
I totally understand that sometimes we still have to hide what we really are in front of our JW families. For example, in keeping with my username, I have an adorable little happy goat tattoo on my calf. I am 50 years old but I still hide it when I see my parents! There are things we do or don't do out of respect, but we have to draw the line at some point. The whole reason we left was so that we could live our lives more authentically. You will figure something out!
Valerie
status offlineFence Setter
Update on my mental case visit from my JW Family. #22 [-]
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Nov 17 14 11:11 AM
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Well we survived the visit from my husband's family, with greater reenforcement that we want no part of this cult! My niece did wonderful with the heart surgery and it was not as intense as we were lead to believe it would be. We decided we could not turn them away and explained to our children we would celebrate Christmas early and that I'd write a letter to Santa and ask if he could come early. We celebrated Dec 21 and tore everything thing down that night because his family said they would be here Dec 22. Well they didn't make it until the 27th which was kinda irritating for my kids but they got over it. The visit was complete hell. They stayed OVER a month! They brought 5 dogs I asked them not to bring, mom Slept until 4-6pm everyday while I feed and took care of the children, they trashed my home like it was a garbage dump, they drank until they cried and/or passed out every night and to top it off I was called an Apostate in my own home! Yes prime outstanding examples of Jehovahs witnesses!
During a discusion between my husband and brother inlaw I over heard my brother in law say as a fact that JW is the "Truth" because they are the only religion that does not believe in the trinity or hell fire. I simply stated that I found that hard to believe because there are so many people and religions on the earth and to say JW's are the only religion with these beliefs is hard to take as a fact. My brother in law said name me one and I'll never talk about religion to you again. So I named 2.
Well that only resulted in his calling me an apostate and told my husbands sister they had to leave our home immediatly. I said "Are you really telling me that if there is another relgion in the world that has these beliefs it makes JW's wrong? Because this isn't what I was trying to prove but I was simply saying that statements should not be thrown around as fact when they are not. I am sorry if you thought I was speaking against JW's, I didn't mean to upset you". He would not hear it and continued to call me an apostate. My husbands sister begged him not to leave and they didn't, infact they stayed another week and a half.
My husbands family knows we do not go to meetings but don't know that we celebrate holidays but I try to avoid religious talks with them yet they continued to bring it up every night as they got wasted in my home with loud drunk talking until 5am. My kids had to go to school and would come to my room while I was trying to sleep telling me they couldn't sleep because the drunk Jehovah Witness family was keeping them up. I'd ask the drunk adults to quiet down and explained that my kids had school in the morning and they didn't care.
Yet, I refrained from saying negitive things about the religion and this is what I get. Now that I look back I shoulda said at 1am when this happened ... Hell yes just leave..
There was so much more that occured I could never explain it all unless I wrote a book...But I'm looking forward to a more peaceful Holiday season this year.
Last Edited By: Fence Setter Nov 17 14 12:15 PM. Edited 2 times.
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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Nov 17 14 12:17 PM
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I didn't comment when you first posted this 'cause I missed it but geeze louise!!! Your hubby's family sound like very backwards people. It has been stated here before that JW's don't understand boundaries and your experience is proof of that many times over!
I'm glad your little niece did well with the heart surgery. My grandson had bloodless heart surgery when he was a little over a year old to close up a hole. I was not allowed to be present or even told when he went in for surgery because I am a convicted murderer....wait a minute....no I'm not. I'm a 57 year old grandma who decided to leave the religion she was born in 15 years ago. But it's the same difference to Jdubs. What a mean spirited wacky cult JW's are! Hope you and your little family have a great holiday season this year
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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status offlinecangie
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"The visit was complete hell. They stayed OVER a month! They brought 5 dogs I asked them not to bring, mom Slept until 4-6pm everyday while I feed and took care of the children, they trashed my home like it was a garbage dump, they drank until they cried and/or passed out every night and to top it off I was called an Apostate in my own home! Yes prime outstanding examples of Jehovahs witnesses!"
OMG Fence Setter...If it wasn't so bad AND sad...it would almost be hysterical! hysterical laughing Prime outstanding examples of JW's, indeed! But you and your family (you apostates you smiley: wink ) handled it with sacrifice, dignity, class and kindness...and much more patience than I could have managed. So, kudos to you....bow down. The experience served as a "witness" Bad Pun alert to them of how hospitality is shown, even though they were terrible guests, and you had it enforced to you that living as a JW is not the life you want. I wish you and the family a very happy, peaceful, loving, uninterrupted holiday season this year. Hug
status offlineFence Setter
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Nov 17 14 3:27 PM
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whytebyrd2 wrote:
It has been stated here before that JW's don't understand boundaries and your experience is proof of that many times over!
whytebyrd2 it is amazing, you hit the nail on the head. I don't know why they are like that but they do not respect boundaries. They said they would bring a motor home, which they did, but they wouldn't sleep in it. They would pass out on my couch and when my kids would leave for school they would go in their room. When I locked the kids room they said rude things about it. They started moving all there stuff out of the motor home into our house and sneaking there animals in. I asked them to not bring in there dogs because they would instantly run in to our beds rooms and shit on our pillows and my daughter is allergic to dogs and gets shots weekly. Then They but the dogs in a cage and hide it under clothes!!! We have 5 acres and they had a motor home, WHYYYYY would someone do this?
I'm sorry about your children and grandchildren. I feel your pain. My children have no grandparents because of this religion. Although we are not disfellowshiped officially they have disfellowshiped us and our kids smiley: tired. We only get letters that are impersonal that tell us we need to come back. They don't want to know about the kids doing good in school, learning to play piano, going to homecoming, college or graduating in white. It's all meetings, service, baptism and the organization.
It truely helps deal with this crazy life when you know your not alone though, Thank you!
status offlineFence Setter
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Nov 17 14 3:39 PM
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cangie wrote:
OMG Fence Setter...If it wasn't so bad AND sad...it would almost be hysterical!
Actually cangie it is hysterical...it's like a comedy. I think I could make and awsome movie with tears and laughter but it would all be true non-fiction! We do laugh a lot about it. My kids say why are you laughing, it's horrible! I reply you can laugh or cry, I decided to laugh. smiley: roll
cangie the funny this is it was a witness to them LOL! They started feeling bad at one point and tried to put on the good witness act for us, I puked in my mouth. It was very temporary, 2 days lol. It was all for us, a big show. They started talking to their kids in front of us...What would Jehovah think and stuff. Then they'd go fill up on their whiskey. I feel sad for them. The booze is all they can do to cope with what they believe is the truth.
smiley: rollThanks for the reply it helps to talk to others.
status offlineCacky
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It sounds like a truly horrible visit! Oh my gosh, I would have gone crazy and kicked them all out.
Last Edited By: Cacky Nov 17 14 7:46 PM. Edited 1 times.
status onlineAndriaSyxx
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Hi there Fencie ........ good to see you back in again and thanks for the update.
Woweeee ....... what a holiday you ended up having eh! I'm afraid I'm not nearly as nice as you and would have done some serious yelling in my apostate-kind-of-way .... purely for fun too. How dare they behave in such a manner and then point the finger at you!!!! Tossers. Family, extended family or not .... you have the right to say what you want in your own home. It's what I've always done .... and if people don't like it ... I'm always more than happy to show them where the front door is. That's the joy of owning or renting your own home ...... you invite who you want to invite in ... you shut the rest out ... and if you want to jump up and down on the soap box and bag the WBTS or any other religion .... then go for it!!!!
Cangie's right ... it sounds like one of those Vacation movies to me, the ones with Chevy Chase and his oft times weird extended family members!!!!!
Have you got plans for this holiday season in place yet? We're sorting out the lights this weekend ... and usually have them up and ready to turn on by December 1st. We don't do the religious Christmas thing in our house ...... no Christ and no mas ... but loads of lights, decorations and fun!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinesolitaire
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Now that I look back I shoulda said at 1am when this happened ... Hell yes just leave..
Yep....amen to that lol!! I'm sorry that you had to put up with their selfish crap...........and for so long!! Unfortunately they are quite happy to use you as a battering ram, whilst taking advantage of your 'apostate' generosity smiley: sick
You will never 'win' whilst their minds are still in denial about the religion..........in the end we all just get so tired of pandering to their 'sensibilities' that we have to get on with living our lives............so maybe if they happen your way again the decs may still be in place........and they can self-implode with shock smiley: smokin
Just remember to be glad that you have escaped, and pity their small minded lives.............
Good to see you about again
Sam x
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status offlineBilly Sugger
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Fence setter....hello.
First time posting to you.
I cringed at your story, who do these people think they are. Not allowed to get drunk....my ass...I've seen more drunk JWs than I care to remember. You don't need these kind of people in your life, you sound a happy, well knit family on your own.
Next time they ask to come and stay there is a wonderful word in the English language that says it all...................................NO.
Wishing you much love and peace.
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Hello
Fence Sitter - for those that know me, I refer to my JW sister as "Fence-rider" and it fits good because after so many years of doing what is expected of her and she wants playing both sides; well, in my opinion it just creates more mental disease because it's living two lives when all any of us want is just living our life in peace.
So, take some of the advice to heart and just continue being true to your family without the JW Spin of hate and control.
It's not an easy journey but one you can survive...believe it when any of us tell you there is recovery although it's on you for taking a firm stand.
My fence-rider sister has yet to make a firm stand because she still believes in the WTBTS. That they are the only ones that have the truth.
I've been DF for over 40 years and still deal with JW family that are ...well, what they are and it's still often a struggle dealing with family.
status offlineFence Setter
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Yes, Billy Sugger, I have seen more drunkards that are JW's than "Worldly" people too. My husband says it because it's the only way they can cope with the Brain washing, unrealistic demands and twisted truths put on them. Booze and/or prescription drugs.
Andria I have thought I was in a Chevy Chase movie! There was even a sewage situation too!! No shitting!
Thanks for the replies everyone.
No one can truely understand unless they have been a part of this cult and this is why this forum helps us recover.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Morning, Fence-Sitter
I hope things have settled down for you...although the holiday season is upon us. Just have fun and set those personal boundaries! I finally told my sister that no one will be allowed into my home with all their negativity; I'm done!
Makes me think of something I read years ago: "Take crazy somewhere else, we're filled up."
Which makes me think to retype that and post it on my door. Ah, heck, I've been known to post things all over my home instead of being so welcoming to those that want bringing me stress...and I can!
They are what they are and although it may be family - use some common sense for how you choice living your life and what you want your children exposed to.
I'm extremely grateful for any site that we can share with. In turn, we owe something to ourselves and family for having protection from such insanity. Take care.
status offlinejwfacts
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You are being treated as if you are disfellowshipped. A few condescending messages of judgement, and no common family interaction. So you have nothing to loose if you start to stand up for yourself. Personally, next time you received such a comment I would respond, "how do you not realise you are not in a cult?" With the situation that you are in, you would be better off being disfellowshipped if it comes to that.
As far as having them stay, I am shocked. Typical of JW family to shun, and then suddenly be happy to talk so as to get something of monetary value, such as free lodging. Next time tell them it is inappropriate for them to use you, when they have no normal family relationship with you any more.
Last Edited By: jwfacts Dec 1 14 4:46 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlinecangie
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"If it wasn't so bad AND sad...it would almost be hysterical! hysterical laughing"
I wonder how funny they would have thought it if during one of their drunken rampages you invited the local body of elders for a "meet-n-greet' with their visiting "spiritual brothers and sisters?" Crafty burp lol
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Hi, Fence Sitter. Just read your story and was appalled! First they treat you like dirt for years and THEN they want to stay with you? They stay a month and trash your house! Get drunk and bring five dogs! You must have WAY more patience than I do to not throw them out on the street, dogs and all. On second thought, the dogs were probably better behaved.
status onlineAndriaSyxx
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Fence Setter wrote:
Yes, Billy Sugger, I have seen more drunkards that are JW's than "Worldly" people too. My husband says it because it's the only way they can cope with the Brain washing, unrealistic demands and twisted truths put on them. Booze and/or prescription drugs.
Andria I have thought I was in a Chevy Chase movie! There was even a sewage situation too!! No shitting!
Thanks for the replies everyone.
No one can truely understand unless they have been a part of this cult and this is why this forum helps us recover.
It's rather sad when you come across the jdubs who are drinking all the time and trying to hide it. They must fight their indoctrinated consciences ALL the time! Your husband is right Fencie.
Oh no ... you had a sewage situation as well? Must have been all the bullshit the rellies bought with them eh smiley: roll. You know what to do next time they say anything about coming your way ... 'oh no ... how disappointing ... we won't be around'!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Dec 18 14 7:45 PM
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Dd you boomerang and if not I can help you. If you went back and still trying to get out I can help you with good advice. I will post my story tomorrow, read it carefully.
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