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Hectrev1
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05:36 PM on 10/31/2011
Congratulations to Archbishop Michael Seneco for his pastoral leadership.
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iamone3
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07:22 PM on 10/28/2011
Homosexuality is an evolutionary dead end. It is contrary to the survival of the species. Just facts.
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GDWhiteman
Christian mystic iconoclast .
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12:54 PM on 10/29/2011
Our species is in no apparent danger of going extinct as a result of too few of us.
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LintLass
"When you can balance a tackhammer on your head... .
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01:57 AM on 10/30/2011
Funny thing about that is that you really have to be a breeder who doesn't understand we're a social species to say that.
If this was about breeding, we wouldn't be talking here, cause we wouldn't. We'd be breeding.
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LintLass
"When you can balance a tackhammer on your head... .
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01:59 AM on 10/30/2011
If 'Just facts' said this was a rutting competition, you really wouldn't have to attempt speech at all. :)
However... Here we are. :)
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footearowl
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05:47 AM on 10/28/2011
You people who have lost yourselves to the mental and emotional illness that is lgbt Lost-Goofy-Boneheads n Twits need to resign yourselves to The Written Word and not try and bend it to fit whatever platform which you "choose" to speak from!! The bottom line here, ooops uhhm sorry boys NOT that one, is to learn The Truth and then refrain from doing any more of what ails you currently and Pray that your footsteps and heart will lead you to "A New Understanding" so that the old way of life is left behind making it possible for "A New Creature" to appear, one who is
ready and obedient To Both Keep and Do The Will and Word Of God Almighty!! Heyy, don't get mad at me, just get it together and change your acts so that you DO NOT INFLUENCE THE AS YET UNEXPOSED AND THE YOUNG WHO HAVE NOT EVEN HAD A CHANCE TO LEARN, KNOW AND UNDERSTAND THE SCOURGE AND VILE ILLNESS THAT WOULD TAKE THEM ALL SO WILLINGLY!!!!
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Planet Pluto
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08:07 AM on 10/28/2011
You may or may not be a little nutty.... BUT....
You do have a point there when you say, "Do not influence the as yet unexposed." Truth be told, that is precisely the m.o. of some in the LGBT community (as well as others obsessed with sexualizing our entire culture).
Take NY, for example, where sarting next year there will be mandated sex ed starting in middle school which will teach people in as early as 7th grade not about the mechanics of sex or the biology, but about anal sex, homosexuality, anal sex, and, my personal favorite, "oral sex with braces." The students will be given 'risk cards' detailing different sexual acts with a detailed rating on them for each (as if any sexual act is really 'safe' for a 7th grader).
While I'm a bit skeptical of your post (seems a little over the top for me), I will say that you hit the nail on the head with that one statement. For the most part, unless specifically brought to their attention, a 7th grader would likely not even consider many of the things that are slated to be taught to them next year. (Feel free to do a Google News search)
The funny thing is, "they" continuously force sex into society's youth, then turn around and say, "Well, kids are doing it anyway, so we might as well address it." It's like a glass shop owner smashing neighborhood windows on the weekend.
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detroitblkmale30
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10:20 AM on 10/28/2011
F&F
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priceofliberty
Faith without questioning is not faith. .
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09:25 AM on 10/28/2011
lol. Umm. I think you should re-read the written word. Its not these people that are bending it. Its the tradition that has been around for 700 years that bent it. Yes 700 not 2000.
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detroitblkmale30
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10:21 AM on 10/28/2011
Sorry that doesnt fly. The twisting is being done by these leaders the written Biblical word doesnt equivocate.
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priceofliberty
Faith without questioning is not faith. .
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11:14 AM on 10/31/2011
lol. twisting? again re-read it. And I will ask you these questions:
1) If the church agreed on this why did it take until the 2nd Council of Lyons to "settle" the matter?
2) If the church agreed on it after the 2nd Council of Lyons why did Dante(about 70 years later) put a man that was a homosexual only guilty of being a homosexual in purgatory, but put the man that did exactly what Ezekiel said Sodom did in inferno?
3) If this has been a tradition since Paul then why did Paul use arskenokotai instead of a word that was widely accepted as homosexual at the time like pederaste? Plain meaning remember -- arskenokotai is not plain.
4) If Paul meant all homosexuality then why in Romans talk about what seems to be Idolatry to the Roman Gods? which involved homosexuality. These leaders do not worship Jupiter.
Its not these 15 that are twisting. The idea of all homosexuality being wrong is new in the majority of the church. By new by church standards about 766 years.
Now if you can prove the above wrong I'll retract. I doubt it though.
Please don't accuse people of not following the word of God when they are following the word of God, just not your interpretation. Remember if we list every sin Paul condemned in 1 Co 6:9-10, and 1 Tim 1:10 most of America would be condemned to hell including most clergy.
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detroitblkmale30
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09:46 PM on 10/31/2011
LOL Yes twisting.
1) It matters not what the church agreed on what matters is what the scripture truly says. The church once officially said the sun revolved around the earth. For nearly the past century however the position has been nearly universally opposed to same sex acts including today. Even with all of the benefits of texts and study etc etc.. Why is that? hmmm. Slavery has only been considered "wrong" by that "new church" your refer to for 200+ years. Like I said the amount of time doesnt make wrong.
2) Dante? He was a poet, a philosopher, a literary theorist, a politcal thinker. He wasnt a church authority. You might as well take Maya Angelou's "take" on theological issues as the gospel truth if you are going to do that.
3) Wrong pederaste more typically referred to adult male-to young boy relationships in a coercsive manner which was widely common with the Greeks and Romans. That has been included in some of the prohibitions. So its not as if Paul ignored the only obvious word that related to homosexual. Plain-all the other scriptures PLUS Paul's which CAN refer to same sex acts among consenting adults male and female., yes that is plain. its not as if Paul used a completely irrelevant and unrelated word that couldn't possibly mean homosexual. That's not the case.
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priceofliberty
Faith without questioning is not faith. .
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07:03 AM on 11/01/2011
1) it matters. One of the claims is that the 2 views on homosexuality is new and anything new is not orthodox. That isn't true. It is much older than the all or nothing thinking that has prevailed the Church in the last 200 years.
2) Dante is a poet that the Church elevated his comedy to almost scriptural status for a time. Its not the same as using Maya Angelou. He is relevant not because he is an authority but because how the Church used the divine comedy. Its not like the Church ever said this is good except for this little piece in purgatorio. Generally speaking at the time 1321 most literary works the Church disagreed with were destroyed. That begs the question why wasn't it?
3) Please don't use anachronisms. pederaste meaning only pederast is modern greek not ancient. My assertion is that arsenokatoi does not mean all homosexuals. You haven't proven that it does mean that. I personally feel the closest English translation is "a man that hires a rent-boy" using "rent-boy" from British slang. Again the 15 here don't do this. note: arsenokatoi cannot apply to women, its pretty specific to men only.
Look you haven't really addressed the issues. Only attacked the sources of the questions. You have not
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detroitblkmale30
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08:05 AM on 11/01/2011
1) The view on homosexuality is new relatively speaking even if you only account for 700 years of it. However old or new isnt the REAL issue. The issue is what is CORRECT. This view of well it existed in some form or another back to old times still fails to make it correct.
2) He STILL wasnt an authority on the text. Again, using the "church" (which of course is a relative term as you move forward in history) as a definitive term still is not a defining factor for what is true and what isnt. The church thought many things that were incorrect thus there use of Dante is hardly definitive. He cannot be viewed as a source for Biblical truth, he wasnt a theologian. He was used as a marketing tool to draw attention to the church's views(correct or not)
3) I'm using what are commonly accepted meanings of the words. Paul refers both to men and women in this passage here, even if not in the this specific verse. The point is Pederaste refers to the adult male boy, not arsenokoitai, which means in its most rudimentary translation is male bed, in the context of the scripture where men "bed" with other men.
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detroitblkmale30
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08:08 AM on 11/01/2011
'cont
You assert that it doesnt mean "all" homosexual. You don't demonstrate that it doesnt. The Bible consistently states that same sex acts are not permissible. Where does it state that some same sex acts are permissible while others are not? It doesnt. Since you and these 15 are stating that they are the onus is on you to demonstrate that the Bible states that these acts are permissible. When you can do that, I'll change my tune. I know you cant however because its not there.
That's the point, I have addressed the questions you raised for it is in the premises for the questions that the faults within the issues arise.
A.How the church viewed an issue an for how long cannot be taken as definitive truth for your position.
B. Dante cannot be taken as a definitive source an authority on the matter, as he wasnt one. In response your point about how the church used him see point A
C. The term refers to males in bed with other males as differentiated from adult male/young male(coercisve) and male prostitition. That's as inclusive of all types as you can get.
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detroitblkmale30
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09:51 PM on 10/31/2011
'cont.
4) Paul talks about the penalty for idolatry. It was same sex acts. Now if the punishment is a certain action; logically can that punishment be considered exemplary or permissible? Of course not.
.Here is where you can retract..
I accuse them of twisting because that is exactly what they are doing. Its not an interpretation. Its supported in scripture. They are doing exactly what 2 Tim. 4:3 said would happen.
No, merely allowing one sin because people conduct others is the theologically equivalent of two wrongs making a right. The issue here is not whether everyone is sinless, but rather are people taking a sin misleading others to believe it isnt. They are. You cant say they all would be condemned to hell, you dont know them all personally, besides there is something called forgiveness
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priceofliberty
Faith without questioning is not faith. .
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06:51 AM on 11/01/2011
1 Co 6:9 paul does mention idolatry you got me there. It doesn't disprove my statement. Remember my statement is not that all homosexuality is permissible, but what these 15 are doing is.
2 Tim 4:3 "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." This is what I think happened 766 years ago. we are correcting it now. Remember this can be interpreted in more than one way.
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detroitblkmale30
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08:12 AM on 11/01/2011
I do believe that all same sex acts are sinful not matter the context. I see the Bible states that. What types are permissible that you refer to and where do you see the Bible making that claim?
As there are not scriptures in the BIble which directly and explicitly support same sex acts then even though 2 Tim.4:3 can be read in your position, one logically has to conclude it does not. That it supports what I have said. The Bible from OT to NT(more than your 766 years) supports the prohibition against such acts and these 15 leaders an others who say it doesnt are doing exactly what this passage states:
"to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."
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LintLass
"When you can balance a tackhammer on your head... .
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02:03 AM on 10/30/2011
I'm still mystified about how people can both deny they're primates and simultaneously generate that poop directly into their hands ....and throw it like it proves something. :)
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JohnT1919
I am a person of faith, not certainty. .
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06:53 PM on 10/27/2011
Reverend Mel White, founder of Soulforce should also be included. Congrats to all.
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starjack
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10:55 AM on 10/27/2011
What? No Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence?
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Planet Pluto
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11:23 AM on 10/26/2011
Reclaim?
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Stokes
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07:47 AM on 10/26/2011
I believe that the unbiased love of the Almighty is for all of mankind who are seeking relief through a Higher Power. I believe that God is raising up a people who have put on the armor of the Holy Spirit to restore the true teachings of Christ as each is inspired by the wisdom of God's messenger. I also think it wise to listen to and understand the reasoning of some atheists. Judgementalism is as rampant among as many who claim to be Christians as is among some radicals in the Muslim faith. Christians have been programmed to look down on some just as southerners have been programmed to look down on people with dark skin. God is a Spirit of love and truth. God's spiritual love does not require physical contact.
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Trekkiefandom
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12:49 PM on 10/26/2011
well said.
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Gillsans
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11:57 PM on 10/23/2011
I tried adding a slide, but it didn't go through - and he may not be eligible for this list since he died earlier this year, but I don't see how it can be complete without a mention of Rev. Peter Gomes. A brilliant preacher and writer, he came out in 1991. His "The Good Book: Reading the Bible with Mind and Heart," written a couple of years later, opened many minds (including mine).
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Coloradem
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02:04 PM on 10/24/2011
Gomes was an amazing man.
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revsusanrussell
Episcopal priest and LGBT activist .
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06:57 PM on 10/23/2011
What a great cloud of witnesses -- many of whom I am honored to call friends and brothers and sisters in the struggle. They show us that it is long past time time to take to heart the words of Rabbi Abraham Heschel, who famously said, “Few are guilty, but all are responsible.” We -- progressive people of faith -- may not be guilty of the religion based bigotry that has wounded countless members of God’s beloved LGBT children but we responsible for offering a counter-narrative to the lies that have been told about the God we serve – the God of love, justice and compassion.
Also on my list: Rabbi Denise Eger; Rabbi Temple Kol Ami, founding member of HRC Religion Council and past-president So Cal Board of Rabbis and the Very Reverend Michael Hopkins; past-president of Integrity USA and an architect of the Episcopal Church's movement forward on LGBT ordinations and the blessing of same-sex union.
The Reverend Canon Susan Russell
Episcopal Diocese of Los Angeles/All Saints Church, Pasadena
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Carolyn Kennedy
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12:48 AM on 10/23/2011
Missed a few--- Carter Hayward, lesbian, Episcopal priest and writer; Amy deLong, Methodist pastor recently stood trial for officiating at the marriage of two women; Rev. Dr. William Johnson, first openly gay man to be ordained by a mainline Protestant church (United Church of Christ)
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HGfromOmaha
A hungry, free man not a well-fed slave .
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10:56 PM on 10/22/2011
Oh! This is going to be good! I haven't even read the comments yet but I'm going to grab a drink and start reading the "Christians" attacking one another! I can almost visualize all the pasting of Bible verses that's about to take place. Can't wait to count how many times the term "true Christian" is used!
This is going to be great!
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Lucy0808
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10:40 PM on 10/22/2011
Most of the items that were called sins in the bible are not considered sins today. It keeps changing and even the most conservative reactionary Christian doesn't call all of the sins of the bible sins for today. Mylord, the bible supported slavery in a jolly way and sujugation of women and other people especially the gentiles. In Leviticus, the jews were allowed to wipe out villages with women and children included. Everyone. No religious sect in modern times advocates such stuff although it was in the not so long ago past.
Most of the posts by Christians on this thread have been anything but Christian with the love and forgiveness described by Jesus. Like Gandhi said, "I like your Jesus, but the Christians, not so much". I feel the same after reading the posts here and having dialogues with some pretty bigoted dark people. I'm sure there are very good people. I know there are, but in this thread most have been dreaming some very dark dreams with a very mean avatar.
My daughter is gay and I raised her through her tough life. She is a very intelligent, thoughtful human being. Her depth and open heart and mind is a wonder for me to see. She is now in a loving relationship. She is teaching me about love. Love. Love and laughter. Love and compassion. Understanding. There is no way that her behavior is sin. It is love.
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HGfromOmaha
A hungry, free man not a well-fed slave .
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11:23 PM on 10/22/2011
You know they're going to lash out at you and say some evil things Lucy......and it's supposed to come from a place of "love".......the same mentality as what they used in boot camp....."The beatings will continue until morale improves"......
Good for you and your daughter. You're supposed to be there for her. That's your child. She is who she is. I believe in God and God doesn't make mistakes. He makes people as they are.
So many people are hung up on the Bible, not knowing where it came from, when it was written, by whom it was written, how the books were selected, and which books were left out. Let's talk about the Gospel of Thomas and how Jesus viewed true salvation. Of course this means nothing to the "scholars" you'll see writing on these pages because they refuse to acknowledge anything they can't understand or regurgitate from memory.
Oh well. I love reading the attacks. These people truly believe their own hype. Arrogant. Prideful. Boastful. Condescending.
Disgusting.
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Lucy0808
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11:47 AM on 10/23/2011
Thank you for posting a gracious and supportive post. A needed "pause or reprieve" on this thread to say the least. It doesn't fix this problem of over the top self-righteousness, but acknowledges the silliness.
Peace be with you.
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Pale Writer
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08:03 PM on 11/08/2011
I am a Christian and if anyone were to attack Lucy on this issue or any other, I would be the first one to draw my sword (metaphorically speaking) and defend her. She is not a Christian. I believe she is Buddhist. So none of this applies to her or her daughter. Everyone deserves to live in peace. Even on a message board. Just because folks engage in discussion, it does not always equate to "attack". Everyone gets a chance to make their stance, get challenged, and defend it. It's called civil discourse. Those who decide to chide and belittle, do not get the opportunity for intelligent dialogue. Most people will not engage them. Sure folks can be arrogant, prideful, boastful and condescending. I have seen my share from Atheists attacking me...but it makes no difference to me. I shake off the dust from my shoes and move on. Disgusting walks on both sides of the street...
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Gerald Brogdon
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09:38 AM on 11/09/2011
Ref: " ...sins today." Sins are defined as missing the mark of God's will. In Leviticus and Joshua, the Hebrews were told by God to "genocide" neighboring tribes in the Promised Land. How does that coincide with the "Do not kill" commandment? First, understand that God's mission and fulfillment of the promise to Abraham meant that God was going to use the Hebrews to provide His salvation solution. Second, recognize that commandments are not equal. There are priorities (see Matthew 22:36-40). Third, recognize that the neighboring tribes were very influential upon the Hebrews when they remained to influence them in the worship of other "supposed" gods. In most ethical societies today, the loss of many is never outweighed by the loss of few. God, in His omniscience, gave the command to "genocide" neighboring tribes in order to save billions in the future through His salvation solution. All the commands in the Torah were designed to keep the Hebrews unique and separated. Notice that the Hebrews are the only people I'm aware of that have genealogies as deep in this span of time and why both Matthew and Luke traced Jesus' genealogy, at least, back to Abraham. The reason Christians focus on the top two priority commandments over Torah law is twofold: 1) Jesus' priority (see above) and 2) God has provided His salvation solution. However, please note that Jesus said that the law will never go away; it is just tertiary in priority to the two commandments.
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suebeedue
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12:25 AM on 12/20/2011
I hope this question doesn't make you too mad, but i have a sincere question. Is sex so important that all have to engage in it at any cost? Maybe that is the lesson to learn. What would we give up for God? What would we say no to- I would not give that up for God? Jesus said fear not those who kill the body, fear those who destroy both the body and the soul. So - it is something maybe to seriously think about. Not just gay people, but single heterosexual people as well. If it were up to me - no one would have to marry to have sex, but I am not God and he knows much more than I do about it. His ways are higher than my way and seem to be always for the good of all of mankind. Go ahead and hate me for the question, but I really do wonder about that.
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Jake Thomas
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10:05 PM on 10/22/2011
Leviticus 20:9
If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.
20:10 If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.
Deuteronomy 22:20-1 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house.
My guess is that if you believe an follow a literal interpretation of the bible something is going "hit the fan" in short order.
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detroitblkmale30
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09:23 AM on 10/25/2011
A literal interpretation of the Bible also includes one where the Bible is read in its proper theological context. When you include the New Covenant.the punishment for what you have written are inapplicable thanks to Jesus.
I wish that people really studied Christianity before they copied and pasted "gotcha" scriptures to promote a false sense of conundrum as well as a completely unrelated support for other actions.
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StevenM
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05:41 AM on 10/26/2011
What you have offered is nothing more than spin without addressing the real problems raised. You claim that "the punishment for what you have written are inapplicable thanks to Jesus," but you didn't address the real problem, when were they ever moral? If the Bible is a moral book, when was it ever moral to put a child to death for cursing his or her parents? When was it ever moral to put people to death for adultery? When was it ever moral to put two gay men to death for being gay? When was it ever moral to put a young girl to death because she didn't remain a virgin before getting married? These are not simply "gotcha" questions, but address a deeper issue, the Bible's commandments are often immoral themselves. Frankly, many more examples could be given illustrating this point. These commandments are not only "inapplicable thanks to Jesus," but immoral in themselves. Furthermore, your notion that they are now "inapplicable thanks to Jesus" is just your personal spin. And if many of the commandments in Hebrew scripture are immoral, who is to say that some of the commandments in the New Testament are not immoral also?
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detroitblkmale30
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08:22 AM on 10/26/2011
LOL. It's hardly spin. Its widely accepted.You make it sound as if I just made it up. Sorry but the perspective I described has been around for hundreds of years. Its more than my "personal opinion" or some new Huffpo take on the BIble. Its called the New Covenant. Ever heard of it? The punishments are no longer valid thanks to his New Covenant. If you study his life you see that he literally refused stoning in his lifetime and death when the law called for it. That isnt spin my friend. It was moral in the eyes of God. I'm not concerned with what seems right to you now. The answer to all your questions, during the time of the OT.
No they ARE gotcha questions because the people asking them are NOT asking them to test their morality at any time. The people asking them are asking them in "gotcha" attempt to try and invalidate what the BIble says about certain acts being sins. They then incorrectly suggest that if "you believe that(same sex acts are sins)t, then you must do this(stone your children when they disagree with you.) That is a false conundrum and a gotcha game that shows a lack of understanding of BIblical theological principles and context.
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detroitblkmale30
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08:23 AM on 10/26/2011
cont'
Your point is irrelevant. This isnt some general secular moral courtroom or a college ethics class. Biblical scripture takes precedence for the majority of Christians, not popular opinion or moral realtivism which you clearly subsribe to. I dont claim that any of them are immoral so your NT question doesnt apply. You illustrate perfectly my point about those who do not understand theological contexts but simply seek to define what "seems right in their own eyes" by "leaning unto their own understanding" the Bible through separate verses warns against this.
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StevenM
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10:11 AM on 10/26/2011
Re: "Its called the New Covenant. Ever heard of it?"
Sure, but conservative Christians don't always agree with what it means. Many of them claim that only some of the commandments are still binding on Christians today. This allows them to condemn people for violating a commandment while ignoring other commandments in the same book, chapter, or even in the same verse.
Re: "The punishments are no longer valid ..."
You are arguing that parts of scripture are no longer valid. You are simply teaching Biblical relativism, where you can pick some commandments in the Bible to use to condemn others, while ignoring others. You call it a New Covenant. Ever heard of it?
Many conservatives will cite Leviticus 20:13 as proof that homosexuality is wrong. If one asks if they want to stone gays, they back down and say no. It is Biblical relativism of the same verse, they use half of it to claim that homosexuality is wrong, but like you they claim that the other half of this verse is no longer valid -- that scripture itself is no longer valid.
You can try to spin this anyway you like. And it doesn't matter if this spin is something you thought up yourself, or something you learned from others. It is still spin. You want to claim that Biblical scripture takes precedence, while ignoring many of the actual commandments within scripture. Your position is simply Biblical relativism.
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10:37 AM on 10/26/2011
Right lev. 20:13 is such proof. However right there you are mixing apples and oranges. The law is one thing, the punishment is a separate. Think of it like our court system. You are judged to see if you even broke the law in the first place. THEN you are sentenced to your punishment in a separate phase. The law hasnt changed in most instances, Jesus(as the judge God etc.) has altered the sentencing through the New Covenant. That's not relativism. That is understanding the shift in how God now deals with us. It would be relativism if some people were stoned and some people received grace. All receive grace. Thus the scripture is still valid.
I have solid scriptural context. You are attempting to alter something like I said that is widely accepted and longstanding. Its funny you call it spin because you disagree with it. Biblical scripture does take precedence with Biblical CONTEXT. That means that you weigh each scripture against the wider context of the what came after it. THat is something that folks on the left consistently seem to miss, intentionally or not. You measure the law and punishment against what came after. Jesus clearly denies stoning. He clearly talks about becoming the sacrifice for ours sins. Now you can choose to spin that however you like, but its clear to those who take the BIble in context that its reading passages in the proper context of superceding scriptures.
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10:50 AM on 10/26/2011
I must echo my friends statements, he is on sound Biblical footing.
A simpler way to look at it is that the laws of the OT all had a purpose. Some pointed to Jesus (ceremonial laws), some were civil laws (dietary, etc) to separate them from the surrounding cultures, and the rest were moral (immorality, murder, etc.) to show them what was right and wrong.
Ceremonial laws were fulfilled by Jesus (that's why Christians aren't sacrificing animals every day).
Civil laws don't apply, since the Church is not Israel and Israel is not the Church. That's why bacon wrapped shrimp can be enjoyed guilt free (other than the health impact).
Moral laws both preceded and suucceed the law as codified in Leviticus and elsewhere. That is why murder was wrong before the law, that is why murder is wrong after the law. The same applies to sexual immorality and other moral directives.
Christians are explicitly NOT under the JUDGEMENT of the moral law, but the moral law remains to expose our sin nature, and to show us what sin is. It's not relativism, it's not spin, it's Biblical.
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12:11 PM on 10/26/2011
eric0063 writes: “Ceremonial laws were fulfilled by Jesus (that's why Christians aren't sacrificing animals every day).”
That is spin, and dishonest spin at that. The Jewish temple didn’t shut down and stop sacrificing animals when Jesus was crucified. In fact, they continued to sacrifice animals for some thirty to forty years after Jesus was crucified. The real reason they stopped is because the Romans sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple.
Your attempt to divide the biblical commandments into civil, ceremonial and moral laws is just another attempt at Biblical relativism. It is not like the Bible itself divides them into these separate categories. This is just conservative spin, totally made up out of thin air. Is the commandment prohibiting wearing a garment made of two different materials a civil, ceremonial, or moral law? And who get to decide? Is it immoral to wear such a garment? Are you a dirty little sinner because you wear garments made of two different materials? Do you feel bad when you wear such garments? Is your sin now exposed? You can deny it all you want, but the fact is that you claim some commandments are still valid, while ignoring other commandments in the Bible. That is Biblical relativism!
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07:26 AM on 10/27/2011
LOL!
You say you have "solid scriptural context" -- you mean, like the solid scriptural context that said that our sun revolves around the earth? (Go read the heliocentrism trial documents against Galileo -- scripture was cited as evidence that he was wrong when he said that it was the earth that did the revolving, not the sun.)
Then you quote Leviticus -- who also said that eating shellfish is an abomination.
So, why aren't you picketing at your local Red Lobster restaurant?
No, you hide here and hurl your nonsense anonymously. You know you would be laughed at if you were to walk around with your silly Leviticus abomination placard outside a seafood restaurant.
Know this -- you're still being laughed at just the same.
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09:48 AM on 10/27/2011
Ah, the trolling begins. You get bested on one point so you feel the need to try and jump on another conversation of which you werent a point. Like I said in my other rebuttal of your erroneous statements. There is no scripture in the Bible that says the sun revolves around the earth. There IS however a scripture that says same sex acts are sins, multiple ones.
FAIL. nice try. Not to mention that you cannot use one issue to refute a completely unrelated one. That notion fails even in philosophy or science.
Ah I see you clearly dont understand the Levitical codes and the difference between the Levitical Priestly code(shellfish prohibitions) and the Levitical Moral Code which dealt with same sex acts, incest, bestiality, etc etc. The former code no longer applies as it dealt with purification in regards to both the levitical priesthood and the people as they remained pure for their animal sacrifices unto God. The New Covenant made those prohibitions no longer necessary as Jesus became the sacrifice for our sins. Unless you see Christians slaying lambs on altars?? No? Ok good, I love some seafood, yummm. Thanks anyway LOL
Sorry but your "gotcha game" with shellfish is overplayed and incorrect.
You can laught all you want. Know this. You are laughing in vain as you are wrong.
Nice try.
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10:14 AM on 10/27/2011
Steven. You are incorrect. Of course the Jews continued sacrificing. They didnt ACCEPT Jesus as the Messiah. They didnt embrace the disciples and Christianity. Why would they? No its not made up out of thin area. Biblical scholars for hundreds of years have pointed to this distinction between the Levitical Priestly Code and the Levitical Moral or Holiness Code. Murder was wrong outside of Leviticus because of the Ten Commandments in Exodus. Murder was wrong in Genesis. You make the mistake of assuming that the Moral code in Leviticus entails all that is moral, not its just one of others to be observed. Demonstrating that other moral laws exisit doesnt invalidate the one in Leviticus as its not comprehensive. The garment? Easy Priestly Code(ceremonial) God decided thats why its in the Bible. Not applicable so no guilt.
The SPIN is your take on this established theological context because it doesnt fit your world view. sorry but its not relativism, its merely understanding pre-existing Biblical theological context. That accusation just doesnt stick.
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01:03 PM on 11/08/2011
It still seems awfully convenient to me for so many people to expend so much time and energy condemning others for wanting to commit a "sin" they themselves claim to not be interested in committing while paying so little attention to the sins they themselves commit every day. Clean out your own yard first. Then you can worry about your neighbor's.
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01:20 PM on 11/08/2011
Sin is sin no matter what it is and everyone sins myself included something I've said multiple times(so thanks for your advice, I guess) It just so happens that this is one of the preeminent issues of discussion today. So not its not as if Christians are spending all time debating it. If people were not spending so much time attempting to force many Christians to alter their beliefs on the subject, then we wouldnt spend so much time refuting those attempts.
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01:59 PM on 11/08/2011
Define morality. If something is wrong, it's wrong. You may argue that the punishment seemed disproportionate to the crime, but that is by your standard. If God has a standard, what is the penalty for breaking that standard? Should there be a penalty? What was God doing in and through the various laws, rules, and rituals? What is the message to them then? And to us today?
So, again the question is, why are these laws immoral? If God establishes an order of how things should be, who are we to argue?
The second question is, why are the penalties prescribed wrong? Even today if we break a secular law we are subject to the penalty ascribed for that infraction. You may not see God's purpose in the prescribed penalty, but to say the are wrong, in effect, says God was wrong.
These were God's chosen people, specially set aside as God's mean of dealing with a rebellious world. Yet they continually failed to trust, constantly grumbled and complained, and died in the desert as a result of their disobedience.
God's ways may not seem 'fair' to us. Moses, who led a grumbling ungrateful people around the desert for 40 years because they did not trust God was denied entrance into their land simply for striking a rock instead of speaking to it. Fair? Not by ours maybe, but it was by God's.
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02:02 PM on 11/08/2011
"My guess is that if you believe an follow a literal interpretation of the bible something is going "hit the fan" in short order. "
Only when you confront people who are determined to live however they please regardless of whether or not there is a God and how that God may want them to live.
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02:13 PM on 11/08/2011
salvation isn't dependent on what anyone does. Living right,or uh learning to live right and growing more and more in the knowledge and fear of the Lord,is a "result" of having already been saved,not a means to it.
That said..all men/women are commanded to obey God..and really,who can really, know for sure if they have or have not been saved,when it is all up to God.So..we live and learn and try anyway and hope and pray we are his..if we are not..well it is not somethimg we ever deserved anyway.
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02:31 PM on 11/08/2011
Jesus said: "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." (John 17:3)
"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13)
We can know for sure that we have eternal life. Jesus paid the price in full. The Holy Spirit is given to us as a guarantee (or down payment) for what Jesus has purchased through his shed blood.
As saved, we are continually working out our salvation, meaning we take what is inside of us and continually try to work it to the outside, or thoughts, words, and actions.
"if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10)
You're right though, none of us deserve it, but God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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03:18 PM on 11/08/2011
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
John 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
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03:30 PM on 11/08/2011
But Jesus also says:
Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. (Revelation 3:20)
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16)
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
The Bible consistently portrays acceptance by the believer as a requirement, AND it also consistently portrays that we are predestined. A paradox.
We can only view predestination from our limited perspective. We think of eternity as a timeline with arrows at both ends. Eternity is not just lots of time, it's being outside of time altogether. We have no means of comprehending this.
The whole conflict of free will and predestination is resolved when you step outside of time, but because we can't do that from here, the apparent paradox remains.
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04:05 PM on 11/08/2011
you can not hear the knock if you do not have the ears to hear it.
yes,if we believe in Jesus..but what does that mean ? that we believed he existed and exist ? "even the devils believe and tremble" I think it means ,we believe HE did the Work,and we can only believe that,IF he has done the work..see ?
I understand time is sort of an illusion.Though we exist in it.God is not bound by time..he is the " I AM",I also understand that he is the creator and the saviour,I am not.
Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
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03:36 PM on 11/08/2011
and...
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
then there is Romans chapter 9..it is ALL over the Bible
Lazarus is a very good example of Salvation.
while he was dead in that tomb,did he lay there deciding whether he wanted to obey Jesus or not ? NO.that would be impossible.
God had to give him life,the ears to hear AND the will and ability to obey.
Freewill doctrin leads to self righteousness ..which is why i think he has made it impossible for us to save ourselves. we must rely Completely on him.
"least any man should boast"
so..I am ok with it.I think I understand why it MUST be this way.
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03:55 PM on 11/08/2011
The price was paid by another (Jesus) and presents eternal life to us as a gift. But as with any other gift we are free to accept or reject it.
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Binea
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08:01 PM on 11/08/2011
if you are his you can not,will not reject it. Stop trying to take any credit.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Isa 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
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03:49 PM on 11/08/2011
Mark 1:40 And there came a leper to him, beseeching him, and kneeling down to him, and saying unto him, If thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
Mark 1:41 And Jesus, moved with compassion, put forth his hand, and touched him, and saith unto him, I will; be thou clean.
Mark 1:42 And as soon as he had spoken, immediately the leprosy departed from him, and he was cleansed.
also..hwo do you give all the glory and praise to God,if you take credit for anything ? Notice that the leper understood that if God wanted to,he could heal him,but the Lper did not know if God wanted to...so he asked ? But,he was admitting in that asking that it is ONLY God that could.
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03:52 PM on 11/08/2011
ok ok Last one for now lol I keep thinking of more
Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luke 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
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Inspiring LGBT Religious Leaders
By Paul Brandeis Raushenbush Posted: 10/20/2011 1:45 pm EDT | Updated: 09/04/2013 12:21 pm EDT
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Reflecting and shaping the culture in which it is embedded, religion has historically been hostile to LGBT-identified people and communities. However, over the last three decades more denominations, congregations and individuals have come out in support of honoring the full humanity of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered people. Today, hundreds, if not thousands, of religious communities are truly places of celebration, healing and hope for all people.
This initial list of 15 ground breaking individuals is just a sampling of the many LGBT religious leaders who have reclaimed religious traditions and communities. We hope that you will use the feature on this slideshow to add gay religious leaders who you feel should be included. Meanwhile, we thankfully acknowledge the ongoing contributions of these inspiring religious leaders.
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Rev. Dr. Mark Achtemeier
Rev. Dr. Mark Achtemeier: Coming Out as an Evangelical Supporter of Gay Rights
When I was ordained in 1984 I believed that gay and lesbian people could become "normal" through repentance and prayer. But in the last decade, I began to discover that God had other plans.
Chely Wright
Chely Wright: Confessions of a Gay Christian Country Singer
The very root of who I am and the core of what Country Music seems to be about is honesty, openness and accessibility. But I had to close myself off in order to survive.
Rev. Patrick S. Cheng, Ph.D.
Rev. Patrick S. Cheng, Ph.D.: What Was the Real Sin of Sodom?
The true sin of the Sodomites as described in the Bible has nothing to do with same-sex acts per se. Rather, the ancient Sodomites were punished by God for a far greater sins: radical inhospitality.
Rev. Patrick S. Cheng, Ph.D.
Rev. Patrick S. Cheng, Ph.D.: "Love The Sinner, Hate The Sin" And Other Modern-Day Heresies
I believe those Christians who "hate" LGBT sexualities and gender expressions while allegedly "loving" LGBT people are nothing more than modern-day gnostics, who were condemned as heretical by early Church theologians.
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Sohailhs
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08:51 PM on 11/10/2011
homosexuality is indeed immoral behavior and is a major sin in Islam. The practice of homosexuality began with the people of Lut (Alyhis Salaam). Allah Ta’ala says in the Holy Quran:
ولوطا إذ قال لقومه أتأتون الفاحشة ما سبقكم بها من أحد من العالمين
“And (remember) Lut, when he said to his people: Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceded you has committed in the worlds?” (7:80)
In this verse, the word “Fahishah”, which means an atrocious, obscene, lewd, shameless act, is referring to the practice of homosexuality. After the people of Sodom ignored the warnings of Lut (Alayhis Salaam) to stop this act and to follow the true path, Allah Ta’ala wiped them out with a severe punishment by turning their towns upside down and burying them with stones of baked clay. This was a telling punishment by Allah Ta’ala for going against the natural order created by Him.
Allah Ta’ala has also stated in several places of the Quran that He has created men and women so that they may be mates for each other (in marriage). The inception of marriage for mankind on Earth was to maintain the human race through procreation. Therefore, it is absolutely clear that homosexuality is strictly prohibited.
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rey del nada
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07:31 AM on 11/02/2011
I believe many Muslim scholars would indicate that Irshad Manji is in fact not Muslim.
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Hectrev1
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05:36 PM on 10/31/2011
Congratulations to Archbishop Michael Seneco for his pastoral leadership.
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iamone3
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07:22 PM on 10/28/2011
Homosexuality is an evolutionary dead end. It is contrary to the survival of the species. Just facts.
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GDWhiteman
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12:54 PM on 10/29/2011
Our species is in no apparent danger of going extinct as a result of too few of us.
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LintLass
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01:57 AM on 10/30/2011
Funny thing about that is that you really have to be a breeder who doesn't understand we're a social species to say that.
If this was about breeding, we wouldn't be talking here, cause we wouldn't. We'd be breeding.
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LintLass
"When you can balance a tackhammer on your head... .
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01:59 AM on 10/30/2011
If 'Just facts' said this was a rutting competition, you really wouldn't have to attempt speech at all. :)
However... Here we are. :)
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footearowl
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05:47 AM on 10/28/2011
You people who have lost yourselves to the mental and emotional illness that is lgbt Lost-Goofy-Boneheads n Twits need to resign yourselves to The Written Word and not try and bend it to fit whatever platform which you "choose" to speak from!! The bottom line here, ooops uhhm sorry boys NOT that one, is to learn The Truth and then refrain from doing any more of what ails you currently and Pray that your footsteps and heart will lead you to "A New Understanding" so that the old way of life is left behind making it possible for "A New Creature" to appear, one who is
ready and obedient To Both Keep and Do The Will and Word Of God Almighty!! Heyy, don't get mad at me, just get it together and change your acts so that you DO NOT INFLUENCE THE AS YET UNEXPOSED AND THE YOUNG WHO HAVE NOT EVEN HAD A CHANCE TO LEARN, KNOW AND UNDERSTAND THE SCOURGE AND VILE ILLNESS THAT WOULD TAKE THEM ALL SO WILLINGLY!!!!
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Planet Pluto
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08:07 AM on 10/28/2011
You may or may not be a little nutty.... BUT....
You do have a point there when you say, "Do not influence the as yet unexposed." Truth be told, that is precisely the m.o. of some in the LGBT community (as well as others obsessed with sexualizing our entire culture).
Take NY, for example, where sarting next year there will be mandated sex ed starting in middle school which will teach people in as early as 7th grade not about the mechanics of sex or the biology, but about anal sex, homosexuality, anal sex, and, my personal favorite, "oral sex with braces." The students will be given 'risk cards' detailing different sexual acts with a detailed rating on them for each (as if any sexual act is really 'safe' for a 7th grader).
While I'm a bit skeptical of your post (seems a little over the top for me), I will say that you hit the nail on the head with that one statement. For the most part, unless specifically brought to their attention, a 7th grader would likely not even consider many of the things that are slated to be taught to them next year. (Feel free to do a Google News search)
The funny thing is, "they" continuously force sex into society's youth, then turn around and say, "Well, kids are doing it anyway, so we might as well address it." It's like a glass shop owner smashing neighborhood windows on the weekend.
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detroitblkmale30
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10:20 AM on 10/28/2011
F&F
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priceofliberty
Faith without questioning is not faith. .
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09:25 AM on 10/28/2011
lol. Umm. I think you should re-read the written word. Its not these people that are bending it. Its the tradition that has been around for 700 years that bent it. Yes 700 not 2000.
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detroitblkmale30
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10:21 AM on 10/28/2011
Sorry that doesnt fly. The twisting is being done by these leaders the written Biblical word doesnt equivocate.
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priceofliberty
Faith without questioning is not faith. .
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11:14 AM on 10/31/2011
lol. twisting? again re-read it. And I will ask you these questions:
1) If the church agreed on this why did it take until the 2nd Council of Lyons to "settle" the matter?
2) If the church agreed on it after the 2nd Council of Lyons why did Dante(about 70 years later) put a man that was a homosexual only guilty of being a homosexual in purgatory, but put the man that did exactly what Ezekiel said Sodom did in inferno?
3) If this has been a tradition since Paul then why did Paul use arskenokotai instead of a word that was widely accepted as homosexual at the time like pederaste? Plain meaning remember -- arskenokotai is not plain.
4) If Paul meant all homosexuality then why in Romans talk about what seems to be Idolatry to the Roman Gods? which involved homosexuality. These leaders do not worship Jupiter.
Its not these 15 that are twisting. The idea of all homosexuality being wrong is new in the majority of the church. By new by church standards about 766 years.
Now if you can prove the above wrong I'll retract. I doubt it though.
Please don't accuse people of not following the word of God when they are following the word of God, just not your interpretation. Remember if we list every sin Paul condemned in 1 Co 6:9-10, and 1 Tim 1:10 most of America would be condemned to hell including most clergy.
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detroitblkmale30
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09:46 PM on 10/31/2011
LOL Yes twisting.
1) It matters not what the church agreed on what matters is what the scripture truly says. The church once officially said the sun revolved around the earth. For nearly the past century however the position has been nearly universally opposed to same sex acts including today. Even with all of the benefits of texts and study etc etc.. Why is that? hmmm. Slavery has only been considered "wrong" by that "new church" your refer to for 200+ years. Like I said the amount of time doesnt make wrong.
2) Dante? He was a poet, a philosopher, a literary theorist, a politcal thinker. He wasnt a church authority. You might as well take Maya Angelou's "take" on theological issues as the gospel truth if you are going to do that.
3) Wrong pederaste more typically referred to adult male-to young boy relationships in a coercsive manner which was widely common with the Greeks and Romans. That has been included in some of the prohibitions. So its not as if Paul ignored the only obvious word that related to homosexual. Plain-all the other scriptures PLUS Paul's which CAN refer to same sex acts among consenting adults male and female., yes that is plain. its not as if Paul used a completely irrelevant and unrelated word that couldn't possibly mean homosexual. That's not the case.
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priceofliberty
Faith without questioning is not faith. .
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07:03 AM on 11/01/2011
1) it matters. One of the claims is that the 2 views on homosexuality is new and anything new is not orthodox. That isn't true. It is much older than the all or nothing thinking that has prevailed the Church in the last 200 years.
2) Dante is a poet that the Church elevated his comedy to almost scriptural status for a time. Its not the same as using Maya Angelou. He is relevant not because he is an authority but because how the Church used the divine comedy. Its not like the Church ever said this is good except for this little piece in purgatorio. Generally speaking at the time 1321 most literary works the Church disagreed with were destroyed. That begs the question why wasn't it?
3) Please don't use anachronisms. pederaste meaning only pederast is modern greek not ancient. My assertion is that arsenokatoi does not mean all homosexuals. You haven't proven that it does mean that. I personally feel the closest English translation is "a man that hires a rent-boy" using "rent-boy" from British slang. Again the 15 here don't do this. note: arsenokatoi cannot apply to women, its pretty specific to men only.
Look you haven't really addressed the issues. Only attacked the sources of the questions. You have not
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detroitblkmale30
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08:05 AM on 11/01/2011
1) The view on homosexuality is new relatively speaking even if you only account for 700 years of it. However old or new isnt the REAL issue. The issue is what is CORRECT. This view of well it existed in some form or another back to old times still fails to make it correct.
2) He STILL wasnt an authority on the text. Again, using the "church" (which of course is a relative term as you move forward in history) as a definitive term still is not a defining factor for what is true and what isnt. The church thought many things that were incorrect thus there use of Dante is hardly definitive. He cannot be viewed as a source for Biblical truth, he wasnt a theologian. He was used as a marketing tool to draw attention to the church's views(correct or not)
3) I'm using what are commonly accepted meanings of the words. Paul refers both to men and women in this passage here, even if not in the this specific verse. The point is Pederaste refers to the adult male boy, not arsenokoitai, which means in its most rudimentary translation is male bed, in the context of the scripture where men "bed" with other men.
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detroitblkmale30
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08:08 AM on 11/01/2011
'cont
You assert that it doesnt mean "all" homosexual. You don't demonstrate that it doesnt. The Bible consistently states that same sex acts are not permissible. Where does it state that some same sex acts are permissible while others are not? It doesnt. Since you and these 15 are stating that they are the onus is on you to demonstrate that the Bible states that these acts are permissible. When you can do that, I'll change my tune. I know you cant however because its not there.
That's the point, I have addressed the questions you raised for it is in the premises for the questions that the faults within the issues arise.
A.How the church viewed an issue an for how long cannot be taken as definitive truth for your position.
B. Dante cannot be taken as a definitive source an authority on the matter, as he wasnt one. In response your point about how the church used him see point A
C. The term refers to males in bed with other males as differentiated from adult male/young male(coercisve) and male prostitition. That's as inclusive of all types as you can get.
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detroitblkmale30
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09:51 PM on 10/31/2011
'cont.
4) Paul talks about the penalty for idolatry. It was same sex acts. Now if the punishment is a certain action; logically can that punishment be considered exemplary or permissible? Of course not.
.Here is where you can retract..
I accuse them of twisting because that is exactly what they are doing. Its not an interpretation. Its supported in scripture. They are doing exactly what 2 Tim. 4:3 said would happen.
No, merely allowing one sin because people conduct others is the theologically equivalent of two wrongs making a right. The issue here is not whether everyone is sinless, but rather are people taking a sin misleading others to believe it isnt. They are. You cant say they all would be condemned to hell, you dont know them all personally, besides there is something called forgiveness
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priceofliberty
Faith without questioning is not faith. .
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06:51 AM on 11/01/2011
1 Co 6:9 paul does mention idolatry you got me there. It doesn't disprove my statement. Remember my statement is not that all homosexuality is permissible, but what these 15 are doing is.
2 Tim 4:3 "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." This is what I think happened 766 years ago. we are correcting it now. Remember this can be interpreted in more than one way.
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detroitblkmale30
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08:12 AM on 11/01/2011
I do believe that all same sex acts are sinful not matter the context. I see the Bible states that. What types are permissible that you refer to and where do you see the Bible making that claim?
As there are not scriptures in the BIble which directly and explicitly support same sex acts then even though 2 Tim.4:3 can be read in your position, one logically has to conclude it does not. That it supports what I have said. The Bible from OT to NT(more than your 766 years) supports the prohibition against such acts and these 15 leaders an others who say it doesnt are doing exactly what this passage states:
"to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."
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LintLass
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02:03 AM on 10/30/2011
I'm still mystified about how people can both deny they're primates and simultaneously generate that poop directly into their hands ....and throw it like it proves something. :)
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JohnT1919
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06:53 PM on 10/27/2011
Reverend Mel White, founder of Soulforce should also be included. Congrats to all.
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starjack
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10:55 AM on 10/27/2011
What? No Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence?
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Planet Pluto
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11:23 AM on 10/26/2011
Reclaim?
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Stokes
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07:47 AM on 10/26/2011
I believe that the unbiased love of the Almighty is for all of mankind who are seeking relief through a Higher Power. I believe that God is raising up a people who have put on the armor of the Holy Spirit to restore the true teachings of Christ as each is inspired by the wisdom of God's messenger. I also think it wise to listen to and understand the reasoning of some atheists. Judgementalism is as rampant among as many who claim to be Christians as is among some radicals in the Muslim faith. Christians have been programmed to look down on some just as southerners have been programmed to look down on people with dark skin. God is a Spirit of love and truth. God's spiritual love does not require physical contact.
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Trekkiefandom
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12:49 PM on 10/26/2011
well said.
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Gillsans
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11:57 PM on 10/23/2011
I tried adding a slide, but it didn't go through - and he may not be eligible for this list since he died earlier this year, but I don't see how it can be complete without a mention of Rev. Peter Gomes. A brilliant preacher and writer, he came out in 1991. His "The Good Book: Reading the Bible with Mind and Heart," written a couple of years later, opened many minds (including mine).
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Coloradem
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02:04 PM on 10/24/2011
Gomes was an amazing man.
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revsusanrussell
Episcopal priest and LGBT activist .
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06:57 PM on 10/23/2011
What a great cloud of witnesses -- many of whom I am honored to call friends and brothers and sisters in the struggle. They show us that it is long past time time to take to heart the words of Rabbi Abraham Heschel, who famously said, “Few are guilty, but all are responsible.” We -- progressive people of faith -- may not be guilty of the religion based bigotry that has wounded countless members of God’s beloved LGBT children but we responsible for offering a counter-narrative to the lies that have been told about the God we serve – the God of love, justice and compassion.
Also on my list: Rabbi Denise Eger; Rabbi Temple Kol Ami, founding member of HRC Religion Council and past-president So Cal Board of Rabbis and the Very Reverend Michael Hopkins; past-president of Integrity USA and an architect of the Episcopal Church's movement forward on LGBT ordinations and the blessing of same-sex union.
The Reverend Canon Susan Russell
Episcopal Diocese of Los Angeles/All Saints Church, Pasadena
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Carolyn Kennedy
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12:48 AM on 10/23/2011
Missed a few--- Carter Hayward, lesbian, Episcopal priest and writer; Amy deLong, Methodist pastor recently stood trial for officiating at the marriage of two women; Rev. Dr. William Johnson, first openly gay man to be ordained by a mainline Protestant church (United Church of Christ)
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HGfromOmaha
A hungry, free man not a well-fed slave .
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10:56 PM on 10/22/2011
Oh! This is going to be good! I haven't even read the comments yet but I'm going to grab a drink and start reading the "Christians" attacking one another! I can almost visualize all the pasting of Bible verses that's about to take place. Can't wait to count how many times the term "true Christian" is used!
This is going to be great!
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Lucy0808
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10:40 PM on 10/22/2011
Most of the items that were called sins in the bible are not considered sins today. It keeps changing and even the most conservative reactionary Christian doesn't call all of the sins of the bible sins for today. Mylord, the bible supported slavery in a jolly way and sujugation of women and other people especially the gentiles. In Leviticus, the jews were allowed to wipe out villages with women and children included. Everyone. No religious sect in modern times advocates such stuff although it was in the not so long ago past.
Most of the posts by Christians on this thread have been anything but Christian with the love and forgiveness described by Jesus. Like Gandhi said, "I like your Jesus, but the Christians, not so much". I feel the same after reading the posts here and having dialogues with some pretty bigoted dark people. I'm sure there are very good people. I know there are, but in this thread most have been dreaming some very dark dreams with a very mean avatar.
My daughter is gay and I raised her through her tough life. She is a very intelligent, thoughtful human being. Her depth and open heart and mind is a wonder for me to see. She is now in a loving relationship. She is teaching me about love. Love. Love and laughter. Love and compassion. Understanding. There is no way that her behavior is sin. It is love.
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HGfromOmaha
A hungry, free man not a well-fed slave .
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11:23 PM on 10/22/2011
You know they're going to lash out at you and say some evil things Lucy......and it's supposed to come from a place of "love".......the same mentality as what they used in boot camp....."The beatings will continue until morale improves"......
Good for you and your daughter. You're supposed to be there for her. That's your child. She is who she is. I believe in God and God doesn't make mistakes. He makes people as they are.
So many people are hung up on the Bible, not knowing where it came from, when it was written, by whom it was written, how the books were selected, and which books were left out. Let's talk about the Gospel of Thomas and how Jesus viewed true salvation. Of course this means nothing to the "scholars" you'll see writing on these pages because they refuse to acknowledge anything they can't understand or regurgitate from memory.
Oh well. I love reading the attacks. These people truly believe their own hype. Arrogant. Prideful. Boastful. Condescending.
Disgusting.
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Lucy0808
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11:47 AM on 10/23/2011
Thank you for posting a gracious and supportive post. A needed "pause or reprieve" on this thread to say the least. It doesn't fix this problem of over the top self-righteousness, but acknowledges the silliness.
Peace be with you.
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Pale Writer
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08:03 PM on 11/08/2011
I am a Christian and if anyone were to attack Lucy on this issue or any other, I would be the first one to draw my sword (metaphorically speaking) and defend her. She is not a Christian. I believe she is Buddhist. So none of this applies to her or her daughter. Everyone deserves to live in peace. Even on a message board. Just because folks engage in discussion, it does not always equate to "attack". Everyone gets a chance to make their stance, get challenged, and defend it. It's called civil discourse. Those who decide to chide and belittle, do not get the opportunity for intelligent dialogue. Most people will not engage them. Sure folks can be arrogant, prideful, boastful and condescending. I have seen my share from Atheists attacking me...but it makes no difference to me. I shake off the dust from my shoes and move on. Disgusting walks on both sides of the street...
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Gerald Brogdon
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09:38 AM on 11/09/2011
Ref: " ...sins today." Sins are defined as missing the mark of God's will. In Leviticus and Joshua, the Hebrews were told by God to "genocide" neighboring tribes in the Promised Land. How does that coincide with the "Do not kill" commandment? First, understand that God's mission and fulfillment of the promise to Abraham meant that God was going to use the Hebrews to provide His salvation solution. Second, recognize that commandments are not equal. There are priorities (see Matthew 22:36-40). Third, recognize that the neighboring tribes were very influential upon the Hebrews when they remained to influence them in the worship of other "supposed" gods. In most ethical societies today, the loss of many is never outweighed by the loss of few. God, in His omniscience, gave the command to "genocide" neighboring tribes in order to save billions in the future through His salvation solution. All the commands in the Torah were designed to keep the Hebrews unique and separated. Notice that the Hebrews are the only people I'm aware of that have genealogies as deep in this span of time and why both Matthew and Luke traced Jesus' genealogy, at least, back to Abraham. The reason Christians focus on the top two priority commandments over Torah law is twofold: 1) Jesus' priority (see above) and 2) God has provided His salvation solution. However, please note that Jesus said that the law will never go away; it is just tertiary in priority to the two commandments.
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12:25 AM on 12/20/2011
I hope this question doesn't make you too mad, but i have a sincere question. Is sex so important that all have to engage in it at any cost? Maybe that is the lesson to learn. What would we give up for God? What would we say no to- I would not give that up for God? Jesus said fear not those who kill the body, fear those who destroy both the body and the soul. So - it is something maybe to seriously think about. Not just gay people, but single heterosexual people as well. If it were up to me - no one would have to marry to have sex, but I am not God and he knows much more than I do about it. His ways are higher than my way and seem to be always for the good of all of mankind. Go ahead and hate me for the question, but I really do wonder about that.
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10:05 PM on 10/22/2011
Leviticus 20:9
If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.
20:10 If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.
Deuteronomy 22:20-1 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house.
My guess is that if you believe an follow a literal interpretation of the bible something is going "hit the fan" in short order.
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detroitblkmale30
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09:23 AM on 10/25/2011
A literal interpretation of the Bible also includes one where the Bible is read in its proper theological context. When you include the New Covenant.the punishment for what you have written are inapplicable thanks to Jesus.
I wish that people really studied Christianity before they copied and pasted "gotcha" scriptures to promote a false sense of conundrum as well as a completely unrelated support for other actions.
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05:41 AM on 10/26/2011
What you have offered is nothing more than spin without addressing the real problems raised. You claim that "the punishment for what you have written are inapplicable thanks to Jesus," but you didn't address the real problem, when were they ever moral? If the Bible is a moral book, when was it ever moral to put a child to death for cursing his or her parents? When was it ever moral to put people to death for adultery? When was it ever moral to put two gay men to death for being gay? When was it ever moral to put a young girl to death because she didn't remain a virgin before getting married? These are not simply "gotcha" questions, but address a deeper issue, the Bible's commandments are often immoral themselves. Frankly, many more examples could be given illustrating this point. These commandments are not only "inapplicable thanks to Jesus," but immoral in themselves. Furthermore, your notion that they are now "inapplicable thanks to Jesus" is just your personal spin. And if many of the commandments in Hebrew scripture are immoral, who is to say that some of the commandments in the New Testament are not immoral also?
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08:22 AM on 10/26/2011
LOL. It's hardly spin. Its widely accepted.You make it sound as if I just made it up. Sorry but the perspective I described has been around for hundreds of years. Its more than my "personal opinion" or some new Huffpo take on the BIble. Its called the New Covenant. Ever heard of it? The punishments are no longer valid thanks to his New Covenant. If you study his life you see that he literally refused stoning in his lifetime and death when the law called for it. That isnt spin my friend. It was moral in the eyes of God. I'm not concerned with what seems right to you now. The answer to all your questions, during the time of the OT.
No they ARE gotcha questions because the people asking them are NOT asking them to test their morality at any time. The people asking them are asking them in "gotcha" attempt to try and invalidate what the BIble says about certain acts being sins. They then incorrectly suggest that if "you believe that(same sex acts are sins)t, then you must do this(stone your children when they disagree with you.) That is a false conundrum and a gotcha game that shows a lack of understanding of BIblical theological principles and context.
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08:23 AM on 10/26/2011
cont'
Your point is irrelevant. This isnt some general secular moral courtroom or a college ethics class. Biblical scripture takes precedence for the majority of Christians, not popular opinion or moral realtivism which you clearly subsribe to. I dont claim that any of them are immoral so your NT question doesnt apply. You illustrate perfectly my point about those who do not understand theological contexts but simply seek to define what "seems right in their own eyes" by "leaning unto their own understanding" the Bible through separate verses warns against this.
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10:11 AM on 10/26/2011
Re: "Its called the New Covenant. Ever heard of it?"
Sure, but conservative Christians don't always agree with what it means. Many of them claim that only some of the commandments are still binding on Christians today. This allows them to condemn people for violating a commandment while ignoring other commandments in the same book, chapter, or even in the same verse.
Re: "The punishments are no longer valid ..."
You are arguing that parts of scripture are no longer valid. You are simply teaching Biblical relativism, where you can pick some commandments in the Bible to use to condemn others, while ignoring others. You call it a New Covenant. Ever heard of it?
Many conservatives will cite Leviticus 20:13 as proof that homosexuality is wrong. If one asks if they want to stone gays, they back down and say no. It is Biblical relativism of the same verse, they use half of it to claim that homosexuality is wrong, but like you they claim that the other half of this verse is no longer valid -- that scripture itself is no longer valid.
You can try to spin this anyway you like. And it doesn't matter if this spin is something you thought up yourself, or something you learned from others. It is still spin. You want to claim that Biblical scripture takes precedence, while ignoring many of the actual commandments within scripture. Your position is simply Biblical relativism.
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10:37 AM on 10/26/2011
Right lev. 20:13 is such proof. However right there you are mixing apples and oranges. The law is one thing, the punishment is a separate. Think of it like our court system. You are judged to see if you even broke the law in the first place. THEN you are sentenced to your punishment in a separate phase. The law hasnt changed in most instances, Jesus(as the judge God etc.) has altered the sentencing through the New Covenant. That's not relativism. That is understanding the shift in how God now deals with us. It would be relativism if some people were stoned and some people received grace. All receive grace. Thus the scripture is still valid.
I have solid scriptural context. You are attempting to alter something like I said that is widely accepted and longstanding. Its funny you call it spin because you disagree with it. Biblical scripture does take precedence with Biblical CONTEXT. That means that you weigh each scripture against the wider context of the what came after it. THat is something that folks on the left consistently seem to miss, intentionally or not. You measure the law and punishment against what came after. Jesus clearly denies stoning. He clearly talks about becoming the sacrifice for ours sins. Now you can choose to spin that however you like, but its clear to those who take the BIble in context that its reading passages in the proper context of superceding scriptures.
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eric0063
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10:50 AM on 10/26/2011
I must echo my friends statements, he is on sound Biblical footing.
A simpler way to look at it is that the laws of the OT all had a purpose. Some pointed to Jesus (ceremonial laws), some were civil laws (dietary, etc) to separate them from the surrounding cultures, and the rest were moral (immorality, murder, etc.) to show them what was right and wrong.
Ceremonial laws were fulfilled by Jesus (that's why Christians aren't sacrificing animals every day).
Civil laws don't apply, since the Church is not Israel and Israel is not the Church. That's why bacon wrapped shrimp can be enjoyed guilt free (other than the health impact).
Moral laws both preceded and suucceed the law as codified in Leviticus and elsewhere. That is why murder was wrong before the law, that is why murder is wrong after the law. The same applies to sexual immorality and other moral directives.
Christians are explicitly NOT under the JUDGEMENT of the moral law, but the moral law remains to expose our sin nature, and to show us what sin is. It's not relativism, it's not spin, it's Biblical.
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12:11 PM on 10/26/2011
eric0063 writes: “Ceremonial laws were fulfilled by Jesus (that's why Christians aren't sacrificing animals every day).”
That is spin, and dishonest spin at that. The Jewish temple didn’t shut down and stop sacrificing animals when Jesus was crucified. In fact, they continued to sacrifice animals for some thirty to forty years after Jesus was crucified. The real reason they stopped is because the Romans sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple.
Your attempt to divide the biblical commandments into civil, ceremonial and moral laws is just another attempt at Biblical relativism. It is not like the Bible itself divides them into these separate categories. This is just conservative spin, totally made up out of thin air. Is the commandment prohibiting wearing a garment made of two different materials a civil, ceremonial, or moral law? And who get to decide? Is it immoral to wear such a garment? Are you a dirty little sinner because you wear garments made of two different materials? Do you feel bad when you wear such garments? Is your sin now exposed? You can deny it all you want, but the fact is that you claim some commandments are still valid, while ignoring other commandments in the Bible. That is Biblical relativism!
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WheelsOnFire
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07:26 AM on 10/27/2011
LOL!
You say you have "solid scriptural context" -- you mean, like the solid scriptural context that said that our sun revolves around the earth? (Go read the heliocentrism trial documents against Galileo -- scripture was cited as evidence that he was wrong when he said that it was the earth that did the revolving, not the sun.)
Then you quote Leviticus -- who also said that eating shellfish is an abomination.
So, why aren't you picketing at your local Red Lobster restaurant?
No, you hide here and hurl your nonsense anonymously. You know you would be laughed at if you were to walk around with your silly Leviticus abomination placard outside a seafood restaurant.
Know this -- you're still being laughed at just the same.
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09:48 AM on 10/27/2011
Ah, the trolling begins. You get bested on one point so you feel the need to try and jump on another conversation of which you werent a point. Like I said in my other rebuttal of your erroneous statements. There is no scripture in the Bible that says the sun revolves around the earth. There IS however a scripture that says same sex acts are sins, multiple ones.
FAIL. nice try. Not to mention that you cannot use one issue to refute a completely unrelated one. That notion fails even in philosophy or science.
Ah I see you clearly dont understand the Levitical codes and the difference between the Levitical Priestly code(shellfish prohibitions) and the Levitical Moral Code which dealt with same sex acts, incest, bestiality, etc etc. The former code no longer applies as it dealt with purification in regards to both the levitical priesthood and the people as they remained pure for their animal sacrifices unto God. The New Covenant made those prohibitions no longer necessary as Jesus became the sacrifice for our sins. Unless you see Christians slaying lambs on altars?? No? Ok good, I love some seafood, yummm. Thanks anyway LOL
Sorry but your "gotcha game" with shellfish is overplayed and incorrect.
You can laught all you want. Know this. You are laughing in vain as you are wrong.
Nice try.
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detroitblkmale30
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10:14 AM on 10/27/2011
Steven. You are incorrect. Of course the Jews continued sacrificing. They didnt ACCEPT Jesus as the Messiah. They didnt embrace the disciples and Christianity. Why would they? No its not made up out of thin area. Biblical scholars for hundreds of years have pointed to this distinction between the Levitical Priestly Code and the Levitical Moral or Holiness Code. Murder was wrong outside of Leviticus because of the Ten Commandments in Exodus. Murder was wrong in Genesis. You make the mistake of assuming that the Moral code in Leviticus entails all that is moral, not its just one of others to be observed. Demonstrating that other moral laws exisit doesnt invalidate the one in Leviticus as its not comprehensive. The garment? Easy Priestly Code(ceremonial) God decided thats why its in the Bible. Not applicable so no guilt.
The SPIN is your take on this established theological context because it doesnt fit your world view. sorry but its not relativism, its merely understanding pre-existing Biblical theological context. That accusation just doesnt stick.
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01:03 PM on 11/08/2011
It still seems awfully convenient to me for so many people to expend so much time and energy condemning others for wanting to commit a "sin" they themselves claim to not be interested in committing while paying so little attention to the sins they themselves commit every day. Clean out your own yard first. Then you can worry about your neighbor's.
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detroitblkmale30
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01:20 PM on 11/08/2011
Sin is sin no matter what it is and everyone sins myself included something I've said multiple times(so thanks for your advice, I guess) It just so happens that this is one of the preeminent issues of discussion today. So not its not as if Christians are spending all time debating it. If people were not spending so much time attempting to force many Christians to alter their beliefs on the subject, then we wouldnt spend so much time refuting those attempts.
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eric0063
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01:59 PM on 11/08/2011
Define morality. If something is wrong, it's wrong. You may argue that the punishment seemed disproportionate to the crime, but that is by your standard. If God has a standard, what is the penalty for breaking that standard? Should there be a penalty? What was God doing in and through the various laws, rules, and rituals? What is the message to them then? And to us today?
So, again the question is, why are these laws immoral? If God establishes an order of how things should be, who are we to argue?
The second question is, why are the penalties prescribed wrong? Even today if we break a secular law we are subject to the penalty ascribed for that infraction. You may not see God's purpose in the prescribed penalty, but to say the are wrong, in effect, says God was wrong.
These were God's chosen people, specially set aside as God's mean of dealing with a rebellious world. Yet they continually failed to trust, constantly grumbled and complained, and died in the desert as a result of their disobedience.
God's ways may not seem 'fair' to us. Moses, who led a grumbling ungrateful people around the desert for 40 years because they did not trust God was denied entrance into their land simply for striking a rock instead of speaking to it. Fair? Not by ours maybe, but it was by God's.
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eric0063
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02:02 PM on 11/08/2011
"My guess is that if you believe an follow a literal interpretation of the bible something is going "hit the fan" in short order. "
Only when you confront people who are determined to live however they please regardless of whether or not there is a God and how that God may want them to live.
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Binea
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02:13 PM on 11/08/2011
salvation isn't dependent on what anyone does. Living right,or uh learning to live right and growing more and more in the knowledge and fear of the Lord,is a "result" of having already been saved,not a means to it.
That said..all men/women are commanded to obey God..and really,who can really, know for sure if they have or have not been saved,when it is all up to God.So..we live and learn and try anyway and hope and pray we are his..if we are not..well it is not somethimg we ever deserved anyway.
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02:31 PM on 11/08/2011
Jesus said: "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." (John 17:3)
"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13)
We can know for sure that we have eternal life. Jesus paid the price in full. The Holy Spirit is given to us as a guarantee (or down payment) for what Jesus has purchased through his shed blood.
As saved, we are continually working out our salvation, meaning we take what is inside of us and continually try to work it to the outside, or thoughts, words, and actions.
"if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10)
You're right though, none of us deserve it, but God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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03:18 PM on 11/08/2011
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
John 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
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eric0063
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03:30 PM on 11/08/2011
But Jesus also says:
Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. (Revelation 3:20)
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16)
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
The Bible consistently portrays acceptance by the believer as a requirement, AND it also consistently portrays that we are predestined. A paradox.
We can only view predestination from our limited perspective. We think of eternity as a timeline with arrows at both ends. Eternity is not just lots of time, it's being outside of time altogether. We have no means of comprehending this.
The whole conflict of free will and predestination is resolved when you step outside of time, but because we can't do that from here, the apparent paradox remains.
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04:05 PM on 11/08/2011
you can not hear the knock if you do not have the ears to hear it.
yes,if we believe in Jesus..but what does that mean ? that we believed he existed and exist ? "even the devils believe and tremble" I think it means ,we believe HE did the Work,and we can only believe that,IF he has done the work..see ?
I understand time is sort of an illusion.Though we exist in it.God is not bound by time..he is the " I AM",I also understand that he is the creator and the saviour,I am not.
Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
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Binea
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03:36 PM on 11/08/2011
and...
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
then there is Romans chapter 9..it is ALL over the Bible
Lazarus is a very good example of Salvation.
while he was dead in that tomb,did he lay there deciding whether he wanted to obey Jesus or not ? NO.that would be impossible.
God had to give him life,the ears to hear AND the will and ability to obey.
Freewill doctrin leads to self righteousness ..which is why i think he has made it impossible for us to save ourselves. we must rely Completely on him.
"least any man should boast"
so..I am ok with it.I think I understand why it MUST be this way.
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eric0063
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03:55 PM on 11/08/2011
The price was paid by another (Jesus) and presents eternal life to us as a gift. But as with any other gift we are free to accept or reject it.
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Binea
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08:01 PM on 11/08/2011
if you are his you can not,will not reject it. Stop trying to take any credit.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Isa 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
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03:49 PM on 11/08/2011
Mark 1:40 And there came a leper to him, beseeching him, and kneeling down to him, and saying unto him, If thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
Mark 1:41 And Jesus, moved with compassion, put forth his hand, and touched him, and saith unto him, I will; be thou clean.
Mark 1:42 And as soon as he had spoken, immediately the leprosy departed from him, and he was cleansed.
also..hwo do you give all the glory and praise to God,if you take credit for anything ? Notice that the leper understood that if God wanted to,he could heal him,but the Lper did not know if God wanted to...so he asked ? But,he was admitting in that asking that it is ONLY God that could.
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03:52 PM on 11/08/2011
ok ok Last one for now lol I keep thinking of more
Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luke 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
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Inspiring LGBT Religious Leaders
By Paul Brandeis Raushenbush Posted: 10/20/2011 1:45 pm EDT | Updated: 09/04/2013 12:21 pm EDT
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Reflecting and shaping the culture in which it is embedded, religion has historically been hostile to LGBT-identified people and communities. However, over the last three decades more denominations, congregations and individuals have come out in support of honoring the full humanity of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered people. Today, hundreds, if not thousands, of religious communities are truly places of celebration, healing and hope for all people.
This initial list of 15 ground breaking individuals is just a sampling of the many LGBT religious leaders who have reclaimed religious traditions and communities. We hope that you will use the feature on this slideshow to add gay religious leaders who you feel should be included. Meanwhile, we thankfully acknowledge the ongoing contributions of these inspiring religious leaders.
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Rev. Dr. Mark Achtemeier: Coming Out as an Evangelical Supporter of Gay Rights
When I was ordained in 1984 I believed that gay and lesbian people could become "normal" through repentance and prayer. But in the last decade, I began to discover that God had other plans.
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The very root of who I am and the core of what Country Music seems to be about is honesty, openness and accessibility. But I had to close myself off in order to survive.
Rev. Patrick S. Cheng, Ph.D.
Rev. Patrick S. Cheng, Ph.D.: What Was the Real Sin of Sodom?
The true sin of the Sodomites as described in the Bible has nothing to do with same-sex acts per se. Rather, the ancient Sodomites were punished by God for a far greater sins: radical inhospitality.
Rev. Patrick S. Cheng, Ph.D.
Rev. Patrick S. Cheng, Ph.D.: "Love The Sinner, Hate The Sin" And Other Modern-Day Heresies
I believe those Christians who "hate" LGBT sexualities and gender expressions while allegedly "loving" LGBT people are nothing more than modern-day gnostics, who were condemned as heretical by early Church theologians.
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FilipeCastro
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12:08 AM on 10/22/2011
I am an atheist and could not care less about other peoples sexual lives. I think that it is mean and nosy in a vulgar way to be homophobic. But my problem with these guys is why is it that the Bible thumpers always bring in homophobia and never mention greed?!
I found these quotes that I think are eloquent:
Mathew 19:21: "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
Or Mathew 6:19: "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal."
Or Luke: 12:33: "Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys."
Or Corinthians 6:9-11: "Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, arsenokoitēs, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers, none of these will inherit the kingdom of God. And this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."
Mmmhhh. All this talk about not paying taxes...
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treven
We are the music makers... .
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06:01 AM on 10/22/2011
Do you find it poetically ironic that you quoted a verse condemning homosexuals in your diatribe?
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Lucy0808
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12:22 PM on 10/22/2011
Not really. It wasn't on the list. However, you may put homosexuality in a different bucket of sin and consider it so.
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treven
We are the music makers... .
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03:53 PM on 10/22/2011
Corinthians refers to "arsenokoitēs".
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Lucy0808
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04:11 PM on 10/22/2011
That Greek word does not refer to homosexuality or homosexual sexacts. Please learn the linguistic history of the word and also how it was used first by Paul (decades after the death of Jesus).
It is important to learn a little about the topic.
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Feministo
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09:59 PM on 10/21/2011
Why do LGBT people want to belong to religions (Judaism, Islam, Christianity) whose holy texts condemn homosexuality and whose institutions have traditionally punished homosexcuality, even with the death? Why don't they just reject those religions? I mean, you can theorize as much as you want, contextualize the text, and explore languages and translations, but from statements such as "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination" (Leviticus 18:22) or "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13), you will always have trouble to get a positive statement on homosexuality! Why do LGBT people don just say, thanks but no thanks to religions. Do it and lead the way!
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FilipeCastro
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11:57 PM on 10/21/2011
I fully agree.
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thereisonlyoneparty
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01:24 AM on 10/22/2011
I believe it boils down to the desire to be a part of a group. "Gay" has become a club (largely based around a homogeneous "culture"), but it does not give one any real meaning. It justifies the individual, but not much more.
So people desire to help "religion" as it answers the questions of why we are here (no reason), what is the meaning of life (again, nothing), and why we should be good (no objective reason; arguments of mutual benefit are somewhat valid). Yeah, these groups may be based on texts that say certain actions are "wrong", but "we" (not me and you, but society; I no in the group) can always find a group that ignores those parts and claims that it actually means that "god" is all cools with us.
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Lucy0808
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02:11 AM on 10/22/2011
Leviticus is the most hateful book in the Old Testament (Bible). So many horrible actions are in and supported by the religion. This is before Jesus, fundamentalist Christians do quote this book quite a bit. It is a book that shows a very mean, violent and disfunctional primate god. Not cool at all.
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ladycrisperfst
If I be lost, even so, come Lord Jesus. .
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08:50 PM on 10/21/2011
In this video, I see a man that is making a plea for an earthly relationship by which he is to be judged as wrong, just as those whom do evil to him or the like-minded, by the same God of justice. However, for those who think that telling God’s truth in love is evil or an attack, are wrong. It is what it is for all of us. Here what Jesus told his enemies who tried too trip him up on His Kingdom to come.
Matthew 22: 25- 32 King James Version
Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased , and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh And last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
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Toutlaguerre
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08:21 PM on 10/21/2011
It is shameful when religious leaders proudly advocate sin and immorality as part of their spiritual outreach program. It is a tragedy when people look up to those who show such blatant disregard for his laws and yet claim to be christian. Whilst the bible does not condone discrimination it's position on homosexuality is clear..it is an abomination.
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StevenM
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09:04 PM on 10/21/2011
It is shameful when you proudly advocate homophobic bigotry. Homosexuality is no more a sin than eating non-kosher, both of which were clearly condemned in the Bible.
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thereisonlyoneparty
more amazing than you .
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01:25 AM on 10/22/2011
So you admit is a "sin" in the view of the religion, but do not condemn those who try to utilize those religions to create new teachings to affirm their own views?
This is about feeling good. "God" loves everyone. Even people who do things that "god" does not like or did not mention specifically.
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StevenM
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07:06 AM on 10/22/2011
Re: "So you admit [it] is a "sin" in the view of the religion ..."
No, I admit that the Bible was wrong to call it a sin, just as the Bible was wrong to call eating a hotdog a sin.
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aviandonn
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04:08 PM on 10/22/2011
This is about feeling good.
Or it's about feeling validated in your own personal beliefs. I suspect you feel that validation all the time and think, or course, that it comes from god. Doesn't every bible reader?
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Loggietoad
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11:22 AM on 10/22/2011
You know this argument is weak. Following your logic then murder is simply non-kosher as well.
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StevenM
High School Chess Coach .
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11:31 AM on 10/22/2011
Re: "Following your logic then murder is simply non-kosher as well."
You misunderstand. My point is merely that Christians have rejected parts of the Bible. The kosher laws are simply an example. It is unfortunate that so many conservatives have been blinded by their ideology that they cannot tell the difference between a "sin" which causes harm like murder or adultery and a "sin" which does not cause any harm like eating non-kosher or a loving relationship between two consensual adults in a monogamous relationship. Homosexuality is no more a real "sin" than eating a hotdog, yet, both were condemned in the Bible, but neither of them causes any real harm. And neither of them are real sins.
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Loggietoad
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11:43 AM on 10/22/2011
I personally adhere to the Westminster Confession of Faith which divide the laws into moral, civil, and ceremonial categories. I believe all moral laws still apply, as did Paul and every other writer in the New Testament.
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StevenM
High School Chess Coach .
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11:48 AM on 10/22/2011
Re: "I believe all moral laws still apply, as did Paul and every other writer in the New Testament."
So do I!
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FilipeCastro
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11:58 PM on 10/21/2011
Relax. God does not exist and sins are inventions of maladjusted minds.
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whatsupcastleman
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04:54 PM on 10/22/2011
What is your reference point for morality ? Do you define good and evil ? Can your definition of good, be someone else's definition of evil ? I may believe murder is good, but you may think it is evil. If I applied my equally valid view to end your life, your construct would be voided out by mine.
This is all untrue though. Man has a certain knowledge of the truth written on their heart. This is why most people know stealing, telling lies, and murder are wrong.
But, that truth is suppressed in unrighteousness. People say God does not exist. But, it's obvious to me that a certain law is natural to man revealed in the creation.
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Lucy0808
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02:14 AM on 10/22/2011
It is a trajedy that people are so obsessed with their shariah law which includes being obsessed with sexual organs and how they are used. It is a shame that they are so obsessed with this and miss the most basic teachings of Jesus of compassion, forgiveness and helping the least among us. Of giving up your material goods. Of developing an open heart and a questioning and open mind to see objective truth.
It is astonishing how people cling to their rules and miss the point of it all. Life is so short and they miss life.
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Toutlaguerre
eyes tell the story .
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02:40 PM on 10/22/2011
It is equally troubling that people who claim not to miss the most basic teachings of Jesus such as love, compassion and forgiveness ignore the most basic tenets of morality, such as prohibition of the expression of sexual feelings between two individuals of the same sex. Life is to short to miss that one.
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Lucy0808
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02:59 PM on 10/22/2011
Your bigotry is as plain as day.
There are all sort of rules of shariah the Christians have and yet you are focusing on homosexuality and so called naught parts and how they are used. These people are people of love and loving other people. They are born as homosexuals. The include food you can and cannot eat. Clothing you can and can't wear. Not being around people and having sex in mensus. Rules about slavery and women under subjugation. Giving away your material goods and so on. Yet you are obsessed with homosexuality and people expressing love. They aren't expressing hate nor are they behaving poorly. Yet this is what you focus on. I think that is incredibly sad. I would guess that you haven't dedicated your life to be a preacher and given up most of your material wealth. I would guess that you likely haven't given as much as 15% of your income to the least among us. I would guess that you haven't made your life in the way taught by Jesus. Yet you are here obsessing over homosexuality (people born to it) and their expression of love and ministry, and the way of Jesus.
Yes, I think you are a hypocrite. A shallow one. One not guided by love.
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Toutlaguerre
eyes tell the story .
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01:59 AM on 10/23/2011
The topic of this post was homosexuality so those other laws that you mention as a means of petty fogging the issue are for another discussion. Let's focus from here on the original topic. Whilst it is commendable that people are able to show love to each other and give to other people the bible at 1 Sam 15:22 says, " It is better to obey than to sacrifice". Obedience requires modesty .ie. there are limits within which we can operate in order to please God. The limit on sexual intercourse is between two adults of the opposite sex that are married to each other. There is nothing that you can say to nullify that fundamental truth from God's word the bible. I am going to go out a limb here and say that "naught parts" refer to sexual organs and how they are being used. It is argued that there are people who are born with genetic dispositions to alcoholism etc but somehow they strive to do what is acceptable to God. So even if a person believes in their heart that they are genetically disposed to use their naught parts in homosexual acts, it is no excuse.
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BornOKtheFirstTime
pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo .
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11:52 AM on 10/22/2011
LOL. Many Christians and Jews do not believe the bible is the infallible word of god, but reflects the biases and misunderstandings of the men who wrote it and of the times in which they lived. Likewise they do not think that the passages in Leviticus, Romans, and 1 Corinthians apply to modern LGBTs in committed, loving, non-exploitative relationships.
You arrogantly believe that your authoritarian, fundamentalist approach is the only correct one. You falsely claim that you know the mind of god. For whatever personal reasons of your own, you have chosen the anti-gay version of your religion. Many would say that that is an abomination.
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Toutlaguerre
eyes tell the story .
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02:27 PM on 10/22/2011
It would indeed be an abomination if I did use an authoritarian, fundamentalist approach, or shared the views of "many christians and Jews who who do not believe the bible is the unfallible word of God". Instead I choose Theocracy i.e rule by God. You should try that sometime so that you would not have to resort to calling someone who does not share your opinion arrogant. It might also be helpful if you read the context of those scriptures in Leviticus, Romans and 1 Corinthians with an honest heart and mind. For the one in Romans especially (Roman 1:32) shows that deep down inside a person practicing things the bible condemns knows exactly what they are doing. This as you can see has nothing to do with my "personal reasons" but the law of God, just so you know that it is God who has the absolute authority to decide what is right or wrong.
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BornOKtheFirstTime
pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo .
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05:51 PM on 10/22/2011
Then it's even worse than I imagined. Theocracy is the enemy of our American secular constitutional government.
Leviticus refers to idolatrous practices of temple prostitution and pederasty. Most of Paul's stuff condemning certain homosexual acts reflects Leviticus (hence his coining of arsenokoites to mimic the Hebrew in LEviticus) and again has nothing whatsoever to do with modern LGBTs in loving, committed, non-exploitative relationships. As for Romans, if you read it with a pure and open heart, you see it has to do with heterosexuals, not people who are born predominately homosexual.
And it doesn't make much difference, since the people who wrote those words had only a limited understanding of human sexuality, sexual orientation and gender identity in the first place. Just as they had a limited understanding of the germ theory of disease.
You've simply chosen to project onto god and the bible your own anti-gay bigotry, thereby making yourself feel righteous and safe. But the traditions are changing. You will be left behind.
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Toutlaguerre
eyes tell the story .
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04:20 PM on 10/23/2011
I think this phrase, "And it doesn't make much difference, since the people who wrote those words had only a limited understanding of human sexuality, sexual orientation and gender identity in the first place." is the key to understanding your pattern of reasoning. There is a saying that you can bring a horse to the pond but you cannot make him drink. The tragedy in a statement like that is you completely disregard the fact that the author of the bible is God and the principles and thoughts therein are not from "the people who wrote those words" but God. A person of this view will hardly appreciate that God's principles do not change even if people's outlook on them do. Rom 3:4 advises us " But let God be found true, though every man be found a liar"
It takes prayer ,meditation and desire to do the right thing in God's eyes to appreciate this level of spiritual thinking.
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BornOKtheFirstTime
pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo .
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05:22 PM on 10/23/2011
You reveal the essential flaw and foolishness of your position in the statement, "the author of the bible is God and the principles and thoughts therein are not from "the people who wrote those words" but God". That clearly shows the childish naivete of your understanding. The Bible is the record of the attempts of iron age Jewish men to understand how the world works and to encode the rules of conduct which they believed at the time were correct for their culture. They fit into the pattern of many ancient law givers who purport that their laws have been handed down by a deity, just as Hammurabi represented his famous code of laws as being handed down by the sun god Shamash. This gives the laws an appearence of greater authority. The ancient Israelites were no different in that respect. Unfortunately by mistaking the words of iron age Israelites and Jews for the ultimate and final word of god you are cutting yourself off from the living spirit of god. You arrogantly and foolishly believe that your way is the correct and only way. This leads you not only to limit your understanding of the world, but also to commit grave injustices against those of other faith traditions, such as Hindus and Muslims, and against the LGBT community. You have mistaken the bible for god. And that is a pitiable way to lead a life--in a darkness that you mistake for light.
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Lucy0808
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03:53 PM on 10/22/2011
You are simply a bigot.
These people practice love and lives of love. They dedicate their lives to helping others. How many can say that. Yet you are here obsessed with what you many call "naughty bits" and how they are used. That is so profoundly disfunctional. You miss the entire point of Jesus' teachings. It is sad.
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Toutlaguerre
eyes tell the story .
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01:34 AM on 10/23/2011
Lucy, in my first post on this topic I clearly said that whilst the bible does not encourage discrimination it condemns homosexuality. So whilst you should not hate the person, it is grossly hypocritical for anyone to disregard Jesus' teachings on homosexual acts and yet claim that they understand what love is. What about love for God and Jesus and their teachings? Anyone that thinks practicing something immoral (whether in love or not) makes it acceptable has certainly missed the point about love for God and his son Jesus. It is painful that anyone would treat the moral laws and principles of such a loving God with utter disdain and disregard. In the first century if anyone was a practicer of homosexuality, fornication, etc they had to conform or change their ways if they desired to please God 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 plainly says "that is what some of you were". Jesus as the head of the congregation directed Paul to write these words.If you really cared anything about Jesus or his teachings you would never disregard his teachings on this matter. This is not a personal agenda I am pushing for I am not the author of the bible, God is. I am not the one condemning homosexuality, the teachings of God and Jesus already has that covered. So whether in a loving committed relationship or not homosexuality is wrong, plain and simple.
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Mychaeltodd Robinson
Min.Mychaeltodd, Executive Director of Fig Leaf Fi .
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07:50 PM on 10/21/2011
I'm so thankful to have had a Pastor & mentor like Bishop Yvette Flunder- she has a big heart, she's smart, she love's her people and she loves GOD!- Min.MYCHAELTODD
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TheWM
aka The Wrong Monkey .
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03:06 PM on 10/21/2011
"Reflecting and shaping the culture in which it is embedded, religion has historically been hostile to LGBT-identified people and communities."
No, not all religions have had that problem. Hard as that may be to imagine to some people who are familiar primarily with Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
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BornOKtheFirstTime
pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo .
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01:01 PM on 10/21/2011
74% of American Catholics support legal recognition of same-sex unions (43% for marriage, 31% for civil unions). 44% young evangelicals support same-sex marraige. Reform, Reconstructionist, and Conservative Jews celebrate same-sex unions and ordain openly gay rabbis. They have come to the sensible conclusion that the Levitican prohibitions were targeting idolatrous practices of temple-prostitution or pederasty or else do not reflect a complete understanding of human sexuality. In either case, they have concluded it is unjust to apply them to modern LGBTs in loving, committed, non-exploitative religions.
The Judaeo-Christian tradition is transforming itself, from the bottom-up. As science establishes the fact that homosexuality is normal and natural, that same-sex couples raise children that are just as healthy as straight couples, that same-sex couples profit from the stability that marriages and cvil unions confer, is it surprising that large numbers of Christians and Jews are seeing that it is the old anti-gay versions which seek to exclude LGBTs or impose unjust and discriminatory restrictions on their behavior that are, in fact, the false teachings and the false doctrines--false teachings which the ears of the anti-gay bigots and authoritarians still itch to hear?
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thereisonlyoneparty
more amazing than you .
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01:28 AM on 10/22/2011
The Judaeo-Christian tradition is transforming itself, from the bottom-up. As science establishes the fact that homosexuality is normal and natural
Normal? No. Normal is what is expected. Suicide is not normal, for example, but it is natural. Note that normal is not a value judgment. It is just an observation of what is common in occurrence.
what does natural have to do with anything? Clothes are unnatural. So is agriculture and animal husbandry. And computers.
Religion is about morality. Morality has nothing to do with "natural." It is "natural" to have lots of sexual partners over the life of an individual ("serial monogamy"), but religion does not claim that is "good."
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Anthony Steven Lewis
Cinema Geekly .
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09:32 AM on 10/22/2011
I'm guessing this what brought up as many opponents of that lifestyle tout it as "unnatural" and therefore against the will of God (since he created nature and all).
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jaggeththewires
God said what? .
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01:20 PM on 10/22/2011
Catholics dont adhere to the bible teachings ie. calling Pope father, lighting candles for the dead, pergatory, doing pennance for sins changing the sabbath from sat to sun, praying to idols and other humans... need I go on?
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BornOKtheFirstTime
pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo .
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02:05 PM on 10/22/2011
Worshiping the bible as you seem to do is not the only way. The bible was written by men for men to control men and reflects the limited understanding of people of that time. Need I go on?
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jaggeththewires
God said what? .
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02:23 PM on 10/22/2011
I worship the true and living God. The scriptures are His word sent so that we could know Him. People of that time created the pyramids. Aint a building today show a more comprehensive understanding. Say what?
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BornOKtheFirstTime
pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo .
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03:45 PM on 10/22/2011
LOL! You need to throw that bible of yours away. It's thoroughly confused you. You no more know that you are worshiping the true and living god than does a Muslim or a Hindu. And your approach of worshipping the bible has no more intrinsic merit than those Christians who see the bible as the work of fallible humans through which the spirit of god can nonetheless be discerned. You"ve just chosen the anti-gay version of Christianity to justify your own anti-gay bigotry and make yourself feel better. You arrogantly pretend that you know the mind of god. Others use the bible in a different way.
No ancient Egyptian architect could build the Petronas Towers. But modern architects could build a pyramid. Egyptians had a limited understand of architectural possibilities, techniques and materials.
The average Egyptian lifespan was 33 for men and 29 for women. Looks like they didn't have it all figured out on the medical front either.
People back then were limited--as was their understanding of sexual orientation and gender identity.
Fortunately Judaism and Christianity are evolving to become LGBT inclusive and LGBT affirming.
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jaggeththewires
God said what? .
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03:58 PM on 10/22/2011
What is to understand? God in His word said it is unseemly behavior that ought not to be. He created man. How you gonna tell Him he dont know what He is talking about?
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LintLass
"When you can balance a tackhammer on your head... .
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06:03 PM on 10/22/2011
You already have. But you and your fear of 'idols.' Catholics say 'Pagans do that,' Protestants say 'Catholics do that, ' ...since when or Protestants authorities on what Pagans do, never mind what Catholics say the difference is, when they pretty much make the same ignorant accusations ...None of which seem to be premised on more than the idea that someone else doesn't know how to pray even in proximity to some kind of statue or something? (Of course, then, some Muslims will say that Protestants use too many images...) :) On and on.
Then on through maybe various branches of Buddhism saying, 'That's all illusion, too,' on to Zen saying *whack* It really isn't not-illusion! Then atheists being, 'No it's not,' then we're back to animists and the like being, 'You know it's all alive, anyway, ' then we're back to Pagans being like, 'And now we're going to keeping this grove, maybe carve something in it.
You're just part of this whole grand cycle of people trying to have a spiritual life in a world with ...stuff in it. :)
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jaggeththewires
God said what? .
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06:16 PM on 10/22/2011
WTH?
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Stand Up for your Belief
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01:41 PM on 10/22/2011
People need to get away from "tradition" and MAN made religion and follow what the Bible says.
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BornOKtheFirstTime
pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo .
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02:10 PM on 10/22/2011
LOL! The bible was written by men for men to control men. It reflects all the limitations and prejudices of the men who wrote it. People need to evolve beyond their narrow bibliolatry.
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iLdoRight
Encouraging The Rightest Rightness For Jesus? .
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04:32 AM on 10/21/2011
Caption suggestion; " Lets be good bad examples "
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Hamid Fana
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01:17 AM on 10/21/2011
Imam Daayiee Abdullah is not inspiring..a quick glimpse of his website shows that he's running a business charging exorbitant rates couseling and conducting marriages ($1000) WHICH under Islamic law are expectations of a community leader (Imam) i.e. free to the community.. not something to make money off of.. historically, the greatest leaders of Muslim communities have not only been religious leaders but also doctors, scientists, authors, warriors, or business men which gave them a source of income so they don't depend on charging people for religious duties.. if a poor Muslim wants to get married, he has the right to it without having to spend thousands to get this fake Imam..... as a queer of Muslim background, i find this guy repulsive.
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TexasTreader
Gone fishin' .
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11:19 AM on 10/21/2011
The Christian Apostle, Paul, ALSO made a point of supporting himself by his own work. I've always been suspicious of professional clergy. I understand the attraction and I don't see scripture forbidding it but there is a command to not use God's name vainly. I'd sure like to stay on the right side of THAT line.
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FilipeCastro
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11:59 PM on 10/21/2011
I think that the Christian Apostle Paul is a fictional character, but I agree with you.
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BornOKtheFirstTime
pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo .
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01:00 AM on 10/21/2011
It's encouraging that Christianity and Judaism are evolving out of their anti-gay bigotry phase. The authoritarian religionists here who arrogantly think that their anti-gay version of their faith is the correct one are the ones who are being left behind.
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phyrro
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02:05 AM on 10/21/2011
As a non gay atheist against anti-gay bigotry, I might think that some of these religious leaders are a "start". Not completely understanding all the circumstances I would like to learn what your objections to these "go-gooders" are.
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TomMartin
Freedom and equality. .
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04:30 AM on 10/21/2011
I think you misunderstood the poster.
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Varys
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01:07 PM on 10/21/2011
The anti-gay version of Christianity is the one that acknowledges holy scripture. Whether that's the "correct" one I'll leave for you to decide.
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Balancement
Timendi causa est nescire. -- Seneca .
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12:31 AM on 10/21/2011
I suppose I should wade through the posts below--but I'm carrying with me the wisdom of Bishop John Shelby Spong as a shield: "Too many people use the Bible as a drunk does a lamp-post; for support, rather than illumination."
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ashiraladonai777
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02:50 PM on 10/23/2011
How do you figure when the vast majority of Americans are Biblically-ILLiterate anymore? They wouldn't know what to stand on let alone use it for support.
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Challlie
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11:18 PM on 10/23/2011
there are plenty of countries with a more dense population of biblically-literate people. we're at war with a few of them. distance between a person and his or her bible does not equate to distance between a person and god.
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duncansdad
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10:39 PM on 10/20/2011
The postings here by the folks who like to think they are the most religious, are the some of the most vicious and hateful I have seen in a while.
Shame on you all.
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Challlie
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07:48 PM on 10/20/2011
i've noticed a direct relationship between the number of bible quotations in a post and the number of grammatical and spelling errors.
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FilipeCastro
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12:00 AM on 10/22/2011
:o) I live in Texas and I agree with you!
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ashiraladonai777
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02:49 PM on 10/23/2011
I see. And your lack of capitalization in "I" says nothing either, I take it...? Hubris...
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