Yes homosexual activists have infilitrate every aspect of the secular
world and have achieved acceptance in the media and most of the
general culture and they have been fighting on issues pertaining to the
legitimacy of being gay, not a homosexual 'lifestyle' as you morons imply
in all aspects of society including gay marriage in order to gain full
acceptance the last line of bigoted 'resistance' against the rightful acceptance
of the homosexual community and there is no homosexual 'agenda' has mostly
been from fanatical religious communities.
Gay activitists have made it a top priority to convince the bigoted Orthodox
community that being self-identified as a gay Orthodox Jew is
an acceptable identity and it is. It is not a 'lifestyle'. They are trying to
perpetuate the true notion that a person cannot control his
nature and therefore should accept his non-prohibited inclinations
as something natural and normal that does not need to be 'worked' on
or 'healed'. Fortunately many Orthodox individuals have understood
this issue and have become accepting all of these true notions.
They are not 'false'. Don't put 'nature' in quotations and 'homosexual sex'
are not 'prohibited inclinations' and these are not 'false notions'
The Torah community set up the support of gedolim, rabbonim and
'mental health' professions to counter what is not a 'blantant attack'
on torah 'values'. They urge all rabbonim and gedolim to sign the document
including Shmuel Kamenetsky. It is to 'represent' a unified front
on behalf of Klal Yisrael setting the 'record straight ' on this issue.
I don't think it sets the 'record straight' nor does it represent a 'unified' front.
The gedlim such as Rav Shmuel Kamentsky and other rabbonim discuss
the irrelevant Torah 'perspective'.
The false 'healing and psychological' approach. The bigots are happy
to put you in touch with Jewish and frum 'psychologists', 'therapists'
and 'counselors' that work with the Orthodox jewish population and
have not 'successfully helped' many individuals 'overcome' their
same-sex attractions and are not able to live 'happy' or 'kosher' lives
but they can by leaving the Orthodox community.
They promote the false idea of 'individuals with 'personal experience'
They put you in touch with frum individuals who have 'struggled' with
same-sex attraction and have gone throug 'reparative or gender affirming
therapy' and have unsucessfully completed the 'healing work' which is
unnecessary because they cannot 'overcome' their same-sex attraction.
They are willing to share their personal struggles, the 'healing and therapeutic
techniques' and the non-joy and unsuccess this has brought to their lives.
Many of these cowardly individuals who are not 'brave' are now 'married'
with their 'wives' claiming to have 'full knowledge and support' and are
considered 'upstanding members of Klal Yisrael' and are living lives not
filled with 'kedusha' and not unconsistent with the torah. Do to the sensitive
nature of this issues the individuals agree to meet in person or talk on
the phone privately with known rabbinic leaders who protect these
individiuals identities and confidentiality while sharing their false 'experiences'.
Why do these cowards hide behind anonymity if they are so convinced
they have 'changed'? Their 'wives' do not have full knowledge' or 'support'
of their 'husbands' experience they are merely trophy prizes for these self-hating
men.
Societal developments on homosexuality.
There has been a monumental shift in the secular world's attitude towards
homosexuality over the last few decades. In the particular past fifteen years
there has been a major public campaign to gaine acceptance for homosexuality.
Legalizing same-sex marriage has become the end goal of the campaign
to equate homosexuality with heterosexuality. This is not a 'propoganda blitz'
but a media phenomenon that has been sweeping the world using political
tatics to persuarde the public about the legitimacy of homosexuality. The media
is rife with positive labels claiming that one is hateful or homophobic if they
do not accept the gay community as legitimate. Don't put hateful or homophobic
in quotations, orthodox jews. You are the propogandists and homosexulality
is not a 'lifestyle' and your it is not a negative label to be called hateful or
homophobic if they do not accept homosexuality as being legitimate.
The torah's message is not 'unequivocal' or 'eternal'.
The torah makes a clear but false statement that homosexuality is 'not an
acceptable lifestyle' or 'genuine idenity' by severely 'prohobiting' it's conduct.
Furthermore, the Torah is ever prescient about negative secular infulences and
warns them in the Book of Levitcus to not follow the traditions of the nation's that
Yahweh expells them from. The Torah authors write in this regards to
homosexuality and other 'forbidden' sexual liaisons.
From a torah perspective, the question of whether homosexual inclinations
and behaviors are 'changeable' is extremely irrelevant. The concept that
Yahweh created a human being who is unable to find happiness in a loving
relationship unless he 'violkates' a bibical 'prohibition' is neither plausable nor
acceptable. This should be the case for gay persons. Yahweh is not
'loving' or 'merciful'. Struggles, and even difficult stuggles along
with 'healing' and 'personal growth' are apart of this world but homosexuality
is not apart of the difficult struggles, homophobia is and 'healing and person
growth' do not play apart in homosexuality but in homophobia. Possible lifelong
Torah 'prohibited' situations with no homophobically- inclined
' achievable solutions' involved are also acceptable. Orthodox Jews
embrace the false notion that a homosexuality inclined person can 'overcome'
his or her inclination and desire. Behaviors are not changeable. The torah
does not forbid something which is impossible to avoid, but it does despite
what the frum think. Abandoning people to lifelong lonliness and despair by
promoting all hope of 'overcoming ' and 'healing' their same-sex attaction
is what is heartlessly cruel. Such attitude also does violate the biblical
'prohibition' in Leviticus about the Jews not placing a stumbling
block before the blind. But gays are not 'blind'. The only viable
course of action that is consistent with the Torah is not 'therapy' or 'teshuvah'.
The harmful 'therapy' consists of 'reinforcing' the supposed 'natural' gender
identity of the individual by 'helping' him or her to understand and 'repair'
the 'emotional wounds' that led to it's 'disorientation' and 'weakening' this
in their eyes 'enabling the resumption and completion' of the individuals
'emotional development'.
Teshuvah is believed by Orthodox Jews to be a torah 'mandated' self-motivated
process of turning away from any 'transgrssion' or 'sin' and returning to
Yahweh and one's religious 'essence' which is not 'spiritual' if you ask me.
This includes refining and reintegrating the personality and allowing it to
grow in a healthy and wholesome manner. These processes are typically
facilitated and coordinated with the 'help' of a specially trained 'counselor'
or 'therapist' working in conjunction with a qualified religious teacher or 'guide'
. They claim there is 'no other practical Torah-sanctioned solution' for this
issue but there is. Leave Orthodox Judaism!
The false mitzvah of 'love' and 'compassion'
This aspect of the declaration 'requires tremendous bravery and fortitude'
for a person to 'confront' and 'deal with' same-sex attraction. No, it takes
bravery and fortitude to embrace your same-sex attraction actually.
They use an example of a 16 year old struggling with this issue may be
'confused' and afraid and not know whom to speak to or what steps to
take. The Orthodox homophobic Jews believe they must create an
atmopshere where this teenager or anyone can speak freely to a parent,
rabbim or mentor to be 'treated with love and compassion. This is a lie
as the teenager or any other gay person will be treated negatively if they
refuse to go to 'reparative therapy' and decide to act on their same-sex desires.
The OJ's claim 'authority figures' can then guide the same-sex strugglers
towards a path of 'healing' and 'overcoming' their inclinations. The key point
they claim is to remember that these individuals are 'primarily innocent victims'
of 'childhood emotional wounds'. They claim that these individuals deserve their
'full love', 'support', and 'encouragement' in their striving towards 'healing'.
This means that a gay person who wants to be sexually-active with a same-sex
partner who doesn't want or need to be 'healed' of their same-sex attraction
with not recieve the full 'love and support' of their parents or religious leaders.
Stuggling individuals who seek 'health' and 'wellness' the rabbis claim
should 'not be confused' with the homosexual movement and their 'agenda'.
The 'distinction' they claim is 'crucial'. This mean that those who seek to
embrace their sexuality and decide not to repress it should not get involved with
the LGBT rights movement. The distinction is not 'crucial'. The OJ's claim
it 'reflects the difference' between what Yahweh 'asks from us all' and
what he 'unambigously prohibits'. They claim they need to do everything
in their power to 'lovingly uplift' struggling individuals towards a 'full' and
'healthy' life that is filled with 'love', 'joy' and the 'wisdom' of the Torah.
Rather the only 'love', 'joy' or 'wisdom' that gay OJ's can feel is that which
does not contradict their chosen religious beliefs. I don't beleive Yahweh
'asks' anything from anyone or that he 'unambiguously prohibits' anything
including homosexual sex.
On response to the first question the OJ's state that is is a very 'crucial
question' because it touches upon their 'core understanding' of Yahweh's
'relationship' with them. It also brings up the question of how much can they
actually 'understand' about suffering in this world. Not very much if you ask me.
In ordere to have 'clarity' on this issue they claim they have to 'define the kinds'
of suffering they are talking about and 'break them into seperate categories'.
They start with two categories: one is that difficult situations where if one
falters there is a 'direct Torah violation. Examples of the first situation would
be someone who was born blind, without a leg or has cancer which
is' Hashem yerachim'. Those are truly tragic and difficult circumstances that
can affect a person's entire life and greatly limit some of the things that many
of us take for granted the OJ's claim. So true. They claim that 'however' as it
difficult as such a life may be there is no 'inconsistency' with a person living
a 'Torah lifestyle'. They say that persons with disabilites are being given
prohibitions in the Jewish bible. Homosexuality is not a disability but they
treat it as such? Anyone else see a contradiction here? They then claim that
there are in fact special dispensations within the halacha to deal with the
blind, disabilities and the terminally ill that take into account their cirumstances
and to guide them halachicly. They claim in these situation there is 'no question
of compulsion to violate' Bibically ' prohibited law'. They claim that all the
special circumstances are deal with in a halachic framework such as
doing a prohibited work on Shabbos or Shabbat, for a person with a
medical emergency is not a Torah 'violation' but rather a mitzvah, etc.
The OJ's claim that the second situation would ecompass someone born with
a nature that will only be satisfied by committing a bibically 'forbidden act'.
They claim that could someone be born with an unchangable murderous
bloodthirsty nature or 'hypothetically' if they say a person is born homosexual
and can not change, then in 'both situtations' the person seemingly ONLY
can find satisfaction by 'violating' a biblical 'prohibition. Their comparing
homosexuals to murderers. What immoral bastards! A person is not born
with a 'bloodthirsty' nature and even if they were, murder would still be illegal
as it hurts people. consensual adults having gay sex does not.
The OJ's claim that they 'know this to be factually not possible' based on the
following Gemaras from T.B. Avoda Zora 3a which quotes because the
holy one, Yahweh, blessed be he does not deal imperiously with his
creatures. The Gemara they claim explains that Yahweh does not play cruel
tricks on his creatures and create impossible situations that would cause Torah
'violations'. Well he does, numerous times as told by the authors who wrote the
Jewish bible that claim Yahweh spoke to them such as in the Book of Isaiah
that Yahweh creates both good and evil. This contradicts the notion that
Yahweh is 'all good'. The OJ's then claim that the Chofetz Chaim uses this
Gemara as an examply why someone can not say that their desire for loshen
hora is so strong that it cannot be overcome. Yahweh 'does not' create
impossible Torah situations that lead to 'violations'. They claim so how
do they explain someone who was born with a bloodthirsty nature?
A person born with the desire to kill hurts people. Someone who has
consensual sex with a same-sex partner is not hurting anyone. The OJ's
claim how is that 'not' a cruel trick being played on a person? It would
be. They then quote the following Gemara which 'explains' how that works
from T.B. Shabbos 156a that if one is born under Mazal Mars, he will splill
blood. They quote from Rav Ashi that he will be a bloodletter, bandit,
slaughterer or Mohel and that he can channel his disposition for something
neutral, for negative or for positive. They quote the Vilna Goin in Even
Shelaima, building on T.B. Shabbat 156a implies that every inborn drive has
some form of outlet that is acceptable within the Torah. Homosexuality should
also have an acceptable outlet. Murder does, but only when Yahweh commands
his followers to commit bloodshed for him. The Vilna Gaon quote the OJ's
used is fron Nishima.org. The following quote they use is from a public letter
written on July 4th, 2008 by Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky regarding homosexuality.
Kamenetsky claims their Sages teach them that every human being is
'capable' of 'changing' for the 'better'. He accuses those who make the 'false'
claim that human beings cannot change their 'tedencies' are comparing them
to animals. We are animals, dumbass. He claims that indeed it may be very
difficult to 'change' one's nature, but it is 'definately possible' if one so desires.
Really? Then why don't you change your sadistic religious worldview ,
Kamenetsky?
The OJ's then claim from these sources we can 'see' that the second
situation where someone is born with an inborn unchangeable drive to 'violate'
biblical 'law' is 'not possible. They then claim that Yahweh does not play
tricks by saying something is 'forbidden', and then creating people with a
drive that only can be expressed with what he has 'forbidden' to them. They
then claim that 'however' the 'other struggles' like the first situation are possible
and 'do not cause impossible' Torah 'situations'. So, in other words a person
born with a disablility is okay but a person engaging in sexual activity with
another consenting adult of the same-sex is not because gay sex 'offends' their
god who has not been proven to exist who cannot be positively quoted as
saying that gay sex offends him. Okay. Whatever. Cherrypickers.
The second answer the OJ's give is that not everyone 'succeeds' with current
'therapy' but 'everyone is capable' of 'healing' whether it is drug or alcohol
addiction, weight loss, anorexia, depression or any other human
struggle. This statement is true for most struggles that humans deal with they claim. No, it isn't. They then say
that there will always be individuals who don't 'succeed' with their 'therapy'
but it is 'not' because they are not 'capable of healing' but rather they may just
'not be in the right space' to 'achieve healing' yet. They claim that for some it 'requires
hitting rock bottom to be in that space'. They claim that for others 'they may just
not have yet' been in a space to release 'certain blocks'. The OJ's falsely claim
that this is 'not about blame in any way but rather the reality of why some
people 'succeed' and some people don't. Oh really? You claim gay people
are 'victims of emotional child abuse and that they should 'change' because
they don't fit into your narrow-minded religious worldview? Sounds like blame to
me. The OJ's claim the 'fact' that a person has not yet 'achieved healing', even
after a 'major effort' is 'not proof' that they can't 'eventually' achieve 'healing'
or that they should stop trying. Actually they should if it doesn't work. In fact,
dummies, it doesn't work at all. They can leave Orthodox Judaism, that would
help greatly. The Orthodox Jews then use an example of one individual
who was 100 pounds overweight for most of his life who struggled for
40 years with diets but was never able to successfully keep any weight loss
beyond a short period of time. Then at 50 the man finally lost the 100 pounds
and 10 years later he has still help the weight off. The individual sincerely
wanted to lose weight all of his life. His not succeeding the OJ's claim
for 40 years does 'not mean that he is not capable of success'. Some people
are born heavier than others and their weight won't go down a certain
point, I wonder if the OJ's know that? The OJ's claim that it 'means' that he
was 'not in the right emotional/mental space to fully deal with the blocks
that he had that were preventing success'. The OJ's claim that each of
these situations are 'unique' and may be 'different' than same-sex attraction.
Really, you keep comparing obesity to homosexuality but perhaps that
has to do with the fact that obesity doensn't bother you and homosexuality
does. The OJ's then claim that 'however' all issues that 'require healing
or therapy' have 'in common' that many people succeed in achieving their
goals and others don't. They then say to bring it back to SSA, one person
struggled through 'therapy' for SSA for seven years before achieving
'success'. They make the claim that can he have said after 5 years of
'major' struggle that he is one of those individuals who can never 'change'.
Yes, because he is only doing it to make bigots happy and if it doesn't work
why should he really bother with this 'pseudo-therapy' junk any more?
The OJ's then ask at what point can we say that a person can't deal with
SSA successfully and should give up 'therapy'? When it doesn't work
after the period of time that anti-sexual homophobic bigots recommend,
I'd think. The OJ's suggest that perhaps an 'extended break' is 'warranted'
or 'trying different techniques but how can they 'tell' the world that it is okay
for some people to give up 'trying? You can when it doesn't work. The
'different techniques' not working is a sign they should give up and
during the 'extended break' they might be having gay sex with a person
of the same-gender behind your back. Ever think of that? The OJ's ask how
can there be any other 'message' than 'everyone' is 'capable of healing'?
There is anothe message but your too stupid to understand it. The OJ's
claim that when it comes to homosexuality form a Torah 'perspective' there
is 'no other option other than 'healing'. Yes, there is. Leave Orthodox Judaism
as hard as it may be. The OJ's claim the Torah 'commands' us to 'seek health
and wellness' and to 'repair, 'refine' and 'elevate' any aspect of ourselves or
themselves that 'conflict' with the Torah. Did you ever think that maybe
the Torah is wrong on the issue of same-sex attraction and gay sex?
The OJ's then claim that for some it may be a short term struggle and for
others a longer term struggle. They claim that either way 'no one' is
'exempt' from 'continously striving' for 'healing' and 'living a kosher' Torah
lifestyle. Actually they are exempt from 'continuously striving' for false
hopes of 'healing' and living a 'kosher' lifestyle in alignment with the Torah
that you cherry-pick anyways. They can do this by living Orthodox Judaism.
In the third answer they say that the Declaration is 'very sensitive' to this
concern and specifically 'worded it very carefully'. They claim the main focus in the
declaration of the concept of Teshuvah is as a 'holistic' process of
'reintegration'. They claim within the the concept of 'Teshuvah it is a two-part
process. They claim the first as it states 'turning away from any 'trangression
or sin' and that if someone has committed a 'transgression' then the first step
is to 'stop' that activity. THey claim if someone has not committed any
'transgressions' then this part does not apply to him at all. They then say
that the second and most 'crucial' part of Teshuva is 'healing' as the document
states about the process of Teshuvah itself. This includes 'refining' and
'reintegrating' the personality and allowing it to grow in a 'healthy' and 'wholesome'
manner. They also say that Teshuvah is about a process of 'returning' one's
'true self' and that is what is emphasized in the declaration. They claim
this 'applies to anyone' who has same-sex attractions regardless if they
have acted upon it or not. They say this fits well with Rabbi Yosef Serebryanski's
'explanation' of the roots of Teshuvah.
Serebryanski claims the word T'Shuvah is compsed of two words " Tashuv" and
the letter/latter " Hey". This means returning to Yahweh. This has nothing
to do with negative or bad, it is simply each person 'restoring' their connection
and 'flow directly' with Yahweh the 'source of all life and existence'.
The OJ's asked over 20 individuals who have struggled with this issue how
they feel about the process of 'healing' paragraph and 'not one' had an
issue with it. Really? Only twenty and not one. Why didn't you ask a 20,000
Orthodox Jews. They don't have an issue with it, the twenty you asked because
they are foolish self-hating homosexuals who already agree with your position.
Duh! The OJ's claim they understood that this is not about blame but rather
about a process of personal 'reintegration' and 'returning to one's true nature'.
Don't put the word blame in quotations because you are in fact, blaming them
and shaming them. They claim that in 'fact' in the final section they specifically
stressed that someone struggling with this is an 'innocent victim'. This means
they are shaming them. They then go on to say that as the Declaration stated
the key point to remember is that these individuals are primarily ' innocent
victims of childhood emotional wounds'.
The answer to the fourth question is that in the Torah observant world
there is whole network of frum individuals who have gone through
'reparative therapy' and have 'overcome' their same-sex attractins. Yeah,
so they say but I think all they have really done is vowed to lead a life
or romantic and sexual repression while pretending to be heterosexual men.
They claim again that many of these 'brave individuals' are now 'married' with
their 'wives fully knowledge and support' and are 'upstanding members' of
Klal Yisrael ' living lives filled with 'Kedusha' and 'consistent' with the Torah.
They claim these individuals are 'just like everyone else'. Really all heterosexuals
are the same? Are gay people all the same? They claim why would they want
to publicize a difficult and private struggle in their lives? Good question. They
do it to promote homophobia, religiously-inspired homophobia in your case. The
OJ's claim that despite this many of these 'brave souls' know how 'important'
it is to bring 'awareness' to this subject and are willing to privately share
their personal struggles on the 'healing' and 'therapeutic techniques' and the
joy and equinamity that 'successful change' has brought to their lives. The
OJ's claim that they have agreed to speak privately with anyone who is
either struggling themselves with this issue or with a rabbi, teacher, or
community leader who 'needs more information about this issue'. Ask
persons who specialize in gay issues about gay issues, duh! They
claim that if you fit into either one of these two categories and would
like to speak to someone who has 'successfully overcome' their SSA,
to please email them with your specific situation and they can have someone
contact you to discuss it further.
The answer they give to the fifth question is that the Gemara in Nedarim
51a states that To'eivah or abomination translates as To'eh attah bah
that you are a 'mistakenor' being 'misled' with this ( in the OJ's case with
homosexual inclination). The OJ's claim that the 'most widely accepted
theory' among those with the 'most experience' in 'helping' individuals 'heal'
as to the root cause of homosexuality is that 'something has gone awry' in
childhood development. They claim there are many possiblities and combinations
of factors that may lead to same-sex attraction. The OJ's claim from emotional
or sexual abuse, to having a sensitive nature while not being able to 'properly'
bond with a father figure or male peers. So the OJ's think homosexuality
stems from being sensitive to emotional or sexual abuse or not being
able to have a good bond with other men? What idiots. Lots of heterosexual
men have faced emotional and sexual abuse as kids, have troubling bonding
with other males or are sensitive and they were never gay so how do
you explain that? The OJ's claim there 'may' be other issues as well but
the ' underlying factor' is that this developmental 'deficiency' with male
bonding may manifest in a desire to connect with males in an 'inappropriate'
sexualized way. They claim one of the standard lines from gay activists
is that they would never 'choose this 'voluntarily'. True and they don't.
The OJ's say that they are correct in the sense that it was not a conscience
choice to develop same-sex attractions but that it 'is' a conscience 'choice'
whether one 'chooses' to 'heal' from the 'underlying' issue. Well,
people don't 'choose' to 'heal' from something they are born with.
The OJ's stated that their god wouldn't make some gay and then
say that gays didn't 'consciously choose' to be gay. Contradiction
here is what I see. The OJ's claim that no one consciously chooses to
be overweight but it is a choice and a possiblity to lose weight and to deal with
the emotional factors that lead to overeating. Once again they demean overweight
people some whom are born heavier than others in order to justify their
religiously-based homophobia. What nice people, huh?
The OJ's then claim that just because one does not consciously choose
a struggle or difficulty does not mean that one can't choose to 'heal' from it.
They say that for more 'information' you can watch this 'excellent' 16
minute video that gives a detailed and easy to understand 'explanation'
of some of the 'root causes' of homosexuality and how it develops in
childhood. www.homosexuality101.com
The sixth answer has the OJ's mentioning that according to the Rambam
and the Schulcan Aruch 'prohibited' homosexual activity includes any non-
platonic physical contact even seclusion with someone of the same gender
is 'forbidden' for homosexually-active individuals. From the Rambam Hilchos
Isurei Biah and see also the Shulchan Aruch Even HoEzer
info from TorahWeb.org
Their answer to the seventh question has them saying that homosexuality
is 'forbidden' for 'all' people including non-Jews by the Seven Noahide
'laws'. The Rambam ( Maimonides) is 'explicit' that the 'prohibition' of
sexual 'immorality' in the Noahide 'laws' specifically includes homosexuality.
The Rambam, Mishneh Torah, in Sefer Shoftim, Hilkhoth Melakhim
u' Milhamotheihem texts read there are six types of sexual acts 'forbidden'
to a ben Noah which include intercourse with ones' mother, with one's
father's wife ( who is not one's mother also known as a stepmother),
with another man's wife, with one's sister who has th same mother, 'with
another male', with an animal. They claim another Torah source
that 'explicitly' mentions homosexual marriage is the Midrash Rabba which
states that homosexual marriage was the 'straw that broke the camels back'
and brought the great flood to the world. The text reads that Rabbi Huna said
in the name of Rebbi that the generation of the flood were not wiped out
from the world until men were writing marriage contracts to males and to beasts
which is from the Midrash Rabba Breishis. Well, there is no proof the 'great
flood' ever happened or that it was because men were writing marriage
contracts to men.
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