Friday, October 18, 2013
Homophobic comments from OJ's part 3
What The Bible Says | Assault On Gay America | FRONTLINE | PBS
Pastors unite to support same-sex marriage in D.C.: Â'There is this ...
Black, Gay and Christian
Religion and Sexuality : Pictures, Videos, Breaking News
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FilipeCastro
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12:08 AM on 10/22/2011
I am an atheist and could not care less about other peoples sexual lives. I think that it is mean and nosy in a vulgar way to be homophobic. But my problem with these guys is why is it that the Bible thumpers always bring in homophobia and never mention greed?!
I found these quotes that I think are eloquent:
Mathew 19:21: "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
Or Mathew 6:19: "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal."
Or Luke: 12:33: "Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys."
Or Corinthians 6:9-11: "Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, arsenokoitēs, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers, none of these will inherit the kingdom of God. And this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."
Mmmhhh. All this talk about not paying taxes...
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treven
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06:01 AM on 10/22/2011
Do you find it poetically ironic that you quoted a verse condemning homosexuals in your diatribe?
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Lucy0808
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12:22 PM on 10/22/2011
Not really. It wasn't on the list. However, you may put homosexuality in a different bucket of sin and consider it so.
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treven
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03:53 PM on 10/22/2011
Corinthians refers to "arsenokoitēs".
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Lucy0808
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04:11 PM on 10/22/2011
That Greek word does not refer to homosexuality or homosexual sexacts. Please learn the linguistic history of the word and also how it was used first by Paul (decades after the death of Jesus).
It is important to learn a little about the topic.
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Feministo
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09:59 PM on 10/21/2011
Why do LGBT people want to belong to religions (Judaism, Islam, Christianity) whose holy texts condemn homosexuality and whose institutions have traditionally punished homosexcuality, even with the death? Why don't they just reject those religions? I mean, you can theorize as much as you want, contextualize the text, and explore languages and translations, but from statements such as "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination" (Leviticus 18:22) or "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13), you will always have trouble to get a positive statement on homosexuality! Why do LGBT people don just say, thanks but no thanks to religions. Do it and lead the way!
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FilipeCastro
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11:57 PM on 10/21/2011
I fully agree.
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thereisonlyoneparty
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01:24 AM on 10/22/2011
I believe it boils down to the desire to be a part of a group. "Gay" has become a club (largely based around a homogeneous "culture"), but it does not give one any real meaning. It justifies the individual, but not much more.
So people desire to help "religion" as it answers the questions of why we are here (no reason), what is the meaning of life (again, nothing), and why we should be good (no objective reason; arguments of mutual benefit are somewhat valid). Yeah, these groups may be based on texts that say certain actions are "wrong", but "we" (not me and you, but society; I no in the group) can always find a group that ignores those parts and claims that it actually means that "god" is all cools with us.
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Lucy0808
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02:11 AM on 10/22/2011
Leviticus is the most hateful book in the Old Testament (Bible). So many horrible actions are in and supported by the religion. This is before Jesus, fundamentalist Christians do quote this book quite a bit. It is a book that shows a very mean, violent and disfunctional primate god. Not cool at all.
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ladycrisperfst
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08:50 PM on 10/21/2011
In this video, I see a man that is making a plea for an earthly relationship by which he is to be judged as wrong, just as those whom do evil to him or the like-minded, by the same God of justice. However, for those who think that telling God’s truth in love is evil or an attack, are wrong. It is what it is for all of us. Here what Jesus told his enemies who tried too trip him up on His Kingdom to come.
Matthew 22: 25- 32 King James Version
Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased , and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh And last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
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Toutlaguerre
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08:21 PM on 10/21/2011
It is shameful when religious leaders proudly advocate sin and immorality as part of their spiritual outreach program. It is a tragedy when people look up to those who show such blatant disregard for his laws and yet claim to be christian. Whilst the bible does not condone discrimination it's position on homosexuality is clear..it is an abomination.
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StevenM
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09:04 PM on 10/21/2011
It is shameful when you proudly advocate homophobic bigotry. Homosexuality is no more a sin than eating non-kosher, both of which were clearly condemned in the Bible.
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thereisonlyoneparty
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01:25 AM on 10/22/2011
So you admit is a "sin" in the view of the religion, but do not condemn those who try to utilize those religions to create new teachings to affirm their own views?
This is about feeling good. "God" loves everyone. Even people who do things that "god" does not like or did not mention specifically.
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StevenM
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07:06 AM on 10/22/2011
Re: "So you admit [it] is a "sin" in the view of the religion ..."
No, I admit that the Bible was wrong to call it a sin, just as the Bible was wrong to call eating a hotdog a sin.
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aviandonn
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04:08 PM on 10/22/2011
This is about feeling good.
Or it's about feeling validated in your own personal beliefs. I suspect you feel that validation all the time and think, or course, that it comes from god. Doesn't every bible reader?
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Loggietoad
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11:22 AM on 10/22/2011
You know this argument is weak. Following your logic then murder is simply non-kosher as well.
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StevenM
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11:31 AM on 10/22/2011
Re: "Following your logic then murder is simply non-kosher as well."
You misunderstand. My point is merely that Christians have rejected parts of the Bible. The kosher laws are simply an example. It is unfortunate that so many conservatives have been blinded by their ideology that they cannot tell the difference between a "sin" which causes harm like murder or adultery and a "sin" which does not cause any harm like eating non-kosher or a loving relationship between two consensual adults in a monogamous relationship. Homosexuality is no more a real "sin" than eating a hotdog, yet, both were condemned in the Bible, but neither of them causes any real harm. And neither of them are real sins.
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Loggietoad
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11:43 AM on 10/22/2011
I personally adhere to the Westminster Confession of Faith which divide the laws into moral, civil, and ceremonial categories. I believe all moral laws still apply, as did Paul and every other writer in the New Testament.
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StevenM
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11:48 AM on 10/22/2011
Re: "I believe all moral laws still apply, as did Paul and every other writer in the New Testament."
So do I!
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FilipeCastro
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11:58 PM on 10/21/2011
Relax. God does not exist and sins are inventions of maladjusted minds.
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whatsupcastleman
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04:54 PM on 10/22/2011
What is your reference point for morality ? Do you define good and evil ? Can your definition of good, be someone else's definition of evil ? I may believe murder is good, but you may think it is evil. If I applied my equally valid view to end your life, your construct would be voided out by mine.
This is all untrue though. Man has a certain knowledge of the truth written on their heart. This is why most people know stealing, telling lies, and murder are wrong.
But, that truth is suppressed in unrighteousness. People say God does not exist. But, it's obvious to me that a certain law is natural to man revealed in the creation.
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Lucy0808
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02:14 AM on 10/22/2011
It is a trajedy that people are so obsessed with their shariah law which includes being obsessed with sexual organs and how they are used. It is a shame that they are so obsessed with this and miss the most basic teachings of Jesus of compassion, forgiveness and helping the least among us. Of giving up your material goods. Of developing an open heart and a questioning and open mind to see objective truth.
It is astonishing how people cling to their rules and miss the point of it all. Life is so short and they miss life.
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Toutlaguerre
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02:40 PM on 10/22/2011
It is equally troubling that people who claim not to miss the most basic teachings of Jesus such as love, compassion and forgiveness ignore the most basic tenets of morality, such as prohibition of the expression of sexual feelings between two individuals of the same sex. Life is to short to miss that one.
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Lucy0808
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02:59 PM on 10/22/2011
Your bigotry is as plain as day.
There are all sort of rules of shariah the Christians have and yet you are focusing on homosexuality and so called naught parts and how they are used. These people are people of love and loving other people. They are born as homosexuals. The include food you can and cannot eat. Clothing you can and can't wear. Not being around people and having sex in mensus. Rules about slavery and women under subjugation. Giving away your material goods and so on. Yet you are obsessed with homosexuality and people expressing love. They aren't expressing hate nor are they behaving poorly. Yet this is what you focus on. I think that is incredibly sad. I would guess that you haven't dedicated your life to be a preacher and given up most of your material wealth. I would guess that you likely haven't given as much as 15% of your income to the least among us. I would guess that you haven't made your life in the way taught by Jesus. Yet you are here obsessing over homosexuality (people born to it) and their expression of love and ministry, and the way of Jesus.
Yes, I think you are a hypocrite. A shallow one. One not guided by love.
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Toutlaguerre
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01:59 AM on 10/23/2011
The topic of this post was homosexuality so those other laws that you mention as a means of petty fogging the issue are for another discussion. Let's focus from here on the original topic. Whilst it is commendable that people are able to show love to each other and give to other people the bible at 1 Sam 15:22 says, " It is better to obey than to sacrifice". Obedience requires modesty .ie. there are limits within which we can operate in order to please God. The limit on sexual intercourse is between two adults of the opposite sex that are married to each other. There is nothing that you can say to nullify that fundamental truth from God's word the bible. I am going to go out a limb here and say that "naught parts" refer to sexual organs and how they are being used. It is argued that there are people who are born with genetic dispositions to alcoholism etc but somehow they strive to do what is acceptable to God. So even if a person believes in their heart that they are genetically disposed to use their naught parts in homosexual acts, it is no excuse.
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BornOKtheFirstTime
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11:52 AM on 10/22/2011
LOL. Many Christians and Jews do not believe the bible is the infallible word of god, but reflects the biases and misunderstandings of the men who wrote it and of the times in which they lived. Likewise they do not think that the passages in Leviticus, Romans, and 1 Corinthians apply to modern LGBTs in committed, loving, non-exploitative relationships.
You arrogantly believe that your authoritarian, fundamentalist approach is the only correct one. You falsely claim that you know the mind of god. For whatever personal reasons of your own, you have chosen the anti-gay version of your religion. Many would say that that is an abomination.
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Toutlaguerre
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02:27 PM on 10/22/2011
It would indeed be an abomination if I did use an authoritarian, fundamentalist approach, or shared the views of "many christians and Jews who who do not believe the bible is the unfallible word of God". Instead I choose Theocracy i.e rule by God. You should try that sometime so that you would not have to resort to calling someone who does not share your opinion arrogant. It might also be helpful if you read the context of those scriptures in Leviticus, Romans and 1 Corinthians with an honest heart and mind. For the one in Romans especially (Roman 1:32) shows that deep down inside a person practicing things the bible condemns knows exactly what they are doing. This as you can see has nothing to do with my "personal reasons" but the law of God, just so you know that it is God who has the absolute authority to decide what is right or wrong.
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BornOKtheFirstTime
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05:51 PM on 10/22/2011
Then it's even worse than I imagined. Theocracy is the enemy of our American secular constitutional government.
Leviticus refers to idolatrous practices of temple prostitution and pederasty. Most of Paul's stuff condemning certain homosexual acts reflects Leviticus (hence his coining of arsenokoites to mimic the Hebrew in LEviticus) and again has nothing whatsoever to do with modern LGBTs in loving, committed, non-exploitative relationships. As for Romans, if you read it with a pure and open heart, you see it has to do with heterosexuals, not people who are born predominately homosexual.
And it doesn't make much difference, since the people who wrote those words had only a limited understanding of human sexuality, sexual orientation and gender identity in the first place. Just as they had a limited understanding of the germ theory of disease.
You've simply chosen to project onto god and the bible your own anti-gay bigotry, thereby making yourself feel righteous and safe. But the traditions are changing. You will be left behind.
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Toutlaguerre
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04:20 PM on 10/23/2011
I think this phrase, "And it doesn't make much difference, since the people who wrote those words had only a limited understanding of human sexuality, sexual orientation and gender identity in the first place." is the key to understanding your pattern of reasoning. There is a saying that you can bring a horse to the pond but you cannot make him drink. The tragedy in a statement like that is you completely disregard the fact that the author of the bible is God and the principles and thoughts therein are not from "the people who wrote those words" but God. A person of this view will hardly appreciate that God's principles do not change even if people's outlook on them do. Rom 3:4 advises us " But let God be found true, though every man be found a liar"
It takes prayer ,meditation and desire to do the right thing in God's eyes to appreciate this level of spiritual thinking.
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BornOKtheFirstTime
pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo .
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05:22 PM on 10/23/2011
You reveal the essential flaw and foolishness of your position in the statement, "the author of the bible is God and the principles and thoughts therein are not from "the people who wrote those words" but God". That clearly shows the childish naivete of your understanding. The Bible is the record of the attempts of iron age Jewish men to understand how the world works and to encode the rules of conduct which they believed at the time were correct for their culture. They fit into the pattern of many ancient law givers who purport that their laws have been handed down by a deity, just as Hammurabi represented his famous code of laws as being handed down by the sun god Shamash. This gives the laws an appearence of greater authority. The ancient Israelites were no different in that respect. Unfortunately by mistaking the words of iron age Israelites and Jews for the ultimate and final word of god you are cutting yourself off from the living spirit of god. You arrogantly and foolishly believe that your way is the correct and only way. This leads you not only to limit your understanding of the world, but also to commit grave injustices against those of other faith traditions, such as Hindus and Muslims, and against the LGBT community. You have mistaken the bible for god. And that is a pitiable way to lead a life--in a darkness that you mistake for light.
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Lucy0808
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03:53 PM on 10/22/2011
You are simply a bigot.
These people practice love and lives of love. They dedicate their lives to helping others. How many can say that. Yet you are here obsessed with what you many call "naughty bits" and how they are used. That is so profoundly disfunctional. You miss the entire point of Jesus' teachings. It is sad.
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Toutlaguerre
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01:34 AM on 10/23/2011
Lucy, in my first post on this topic I clearly said that whilst the bible does not encourage discrimination it condemns homosexuality. So whilst you should not hate the person, it is grossly hypocritical for anyone to disregard Jesus' teachings on homosexual acts and yet claim that they understand what love is. What about love for God and Jesus and their teachings? Anyone that thinks practicing something immoral (whether in love or not) makes it acceptable has certainly missed the point about love for God and his son Jesus. It is painful that anyone would treat the moral laws and principles of such a loving God with utter disdain and disregard. In the first century if anyone was a practicer of homosexuality, fornication, etc they had to conform or change their ways if they desired to please God 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 plainly says "that is what some of you were". Jesus as the head of the congregation directed Paul to write these words.If you really cared anything about Jesus or his teachings you would never disregard his teachings on this matter. This is not a personal agenda I am pushing for I am not the author of the bible, God is. I am not the one condemning homosexuality, the teachings of God and Jesus already has that covered. So whether in a loving committed relationship or not homosexuality is wrong, plain and simple.
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Mychaeltodd Robinson
Min.Mychaeltodd, Executive Director of Fig Leaf Fi .
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07:50 PM on 10/21/2011
I'm so thankful to have had a Pastor & mentor like Bishop Yvette Flunder- she has a big heart, she's smart, she love's her people and she loves GOD!- Min.MYCHAELTODD
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TheWM
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03:06 PM on 10/21/2011
"Reflecting and shaping the culture in which it is embedded, religion has historically been hostile to LGBT-identified people and communities."
No, not all religions have had that problem. Hard as that may be to imagine to some people who are familiar primarily with Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
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BornOKtheFirstTime
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01:01 PM on 10/21/2011
74% of American Catholics support legal recognition of same-sex unions (43% for marriage, 31% for civil unions). 44% young evangelicals support same-sex marraige. Reform, Reconstructionist, and Conservative Jews celebrate same-sex unions and ordain openly gay rabbis. They have come to the sensible conclusion that the Levitican prohibitions were targeting idolatrous practices of temple-prostitution or pederasty or else do not reflect a complete understanding of human sexuality. In either case, they have concluded it is unjust to apply them to modern LGBTs in loving, committed, non-exploitative religions.
The Judaeo-Christian tradition is transforming itself, from the bottom-up. As science establishes the fact that homosexuality is normal and natural, that same-sex couples raise children that are just as healthy as straight couples, that same-sex couples profit from the stability that marriages and cvil unions confer, is it surprising that large numbers of Christians and Jews are seeing that it is the old anti-gay versions which seek to exclude LGBTs or impose unjust and discriminatory restrictions on their behavior that are, in fact, the false teachings and the false doctrines--false teachings which the ears of the anti-gay bigots and authoritarians still itch to hear?
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thereisonlyoneparty
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01:28 AM on 10/22/2011
The Judaeo-Christian tradition is transforming itself, from the bottom-up. As science establishes the fact that homosexuality is normal and natural
Normal? No. Normal is what is expected. Suicide is not normal, for example, but it is natural. Note that normal is not a value judgment. It is just an observation of what is common in occurrence.
what does natural have to do with anything? Clothes are unnatural. So is agriculture and animal husbandry. And computers.
Religion is about morality. Morality has nothing to do with "natural." It is "natural" to have lots of sexual partners over the life of an individual ("serial monogamy"), but religion does not claim that is "good."
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Anthony Steven Lewis
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09:32 AM on 10/22/2011
I'm guessing this what brought up as many opponents of that lifestyle tout it as "unnatural" and therefore against the will of God (since he created nature and all).
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jaggeththewires
God said what? .
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01:20 PM on 10/22/2011
Catholics dont adhere to the bible teachings ie. calling Pope father, lighting candles for the dead, pergatory, doing pennance for sins changing the sabbath from sat to sun, praying to idols and other humans... need I go on?
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BornOKtheFirstTime
pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo .
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02:05 PM on 10/22/2011
Worshiping the bible as you seem to do is not the only way. The bible was written by men for men to control men and reflects the limited understanding of people of that time. Need I go on?
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jaggeththewires
God said what? .
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02:23 PM on 10/22/2011
I worship the true and living God. The scriptures are His word sent so that we could know Him. People of that time created the pyramids. Aint a building today show a more comprehensive understanding. Say what?
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BornOKtheFirstTime
pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo .
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03:45 PM on 10/22/2011
LOL! You need to throw that bible of yours away. It's thoroughly confused you. You no more know that you are worshiping the true and living god than does a Muslim or a Hindu. And your approach of worshipping the bible has no more intrinsic merit than those Christians who see the bible as the work of fallible humans through which the spirit of god can nonetheless be discerned. You"ve just chosen the anti-gay version of Christianity to justify your own anti-gay bigotry and make yourself feel better. You arrogantly pretend that you know the mind of god. Others use the bible in a different way.
No ancient Egyptian architect could build the Petronas Towers. But modern architects could build a pyramid. Egyptians had a limited understand of architectural possibilities, techniques and materials.
The average Egyptian lifespan was 33 for men and 29 for women. Looks like they didn't have it all figured out on the medical front either.
People back then were limited--as was their understanding of sexual orientation and gender identity.
Fortunately Judaism and Christianity are evolving to become LGBT inclusive and LGBT affirming.
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jaggeththewires
God said what? .
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03:58 PM on 10/22/2011
What is to understand? God in His word said it is unseemly behavior that ought not to be. He created man. How you gonna tell Him he dont know what He is talking about?
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LintLass
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06:03 PM on 10/22/2011
You already have. But you and your fear of 'idols.' Catholics say 'Pagans do that,' Protestants say 'Catholics do that, ' ...since when or Protestants authorities on what Pagans do, never mind what Catholics say the difference is, when they pretty much make the same ignorant accusations ...None of which seem to be premised on more than the idea that someone else doesn't know how to pray even in proximity to some kind of statue or something? (Of course, then, some Muslims will say that Protestants use too many images...) :) On and on.
Then on through maybe various branches of Buddhism saying, 'That's all illusion, too,' on to Zen saying *whack* It really isn't not-illusion! Then atheists being, 'No it's not,' then we're back to animists and the like being, 'You know it's all alive, anyway, ' then we're back to Pagans being like, 'And now we're going to keeping this grove, maybe carve something in it.
You're just part of this whole grand cycle of people trying to have a spiritual life in a world with ...stuff in it. :)
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jaggeththewires
God said what? .
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06:16 PM on 10/22/2011
WTH?
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Stand Up for your Belief
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01:41 PM on 10/22/2011
People need to get away from "tradition" and MAN made religion and follow what the Bible says.
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BornOKtheFirstTime
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02:10 PM on 10/22/2011
LOL! The bible was written by men for men to control men. It reflects all the limitations and prejudices of the men who wrote it. People need to evolve beyond their narrow bibliolatry.
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StevenM
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03:54 PM on 10/21/2011
Re: "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."
2 Tim. 4:3-4 15 leaders that fit the above scripture.
Or, it could be your notion of Christianity fits the above scripture best. Your view of Christian seems to have all the trappings of Christianity without the love and compassion. Instead of love, you preach a religion of hate and animosity towards those who are different.
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detroitblkmale30
Wise Men Still Seek Him .
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10:28 PM on 10/21/2011
No it couldnt be that actually since the above scripture embodies the other existing scriptures such as the ones found in Leviticus and Romans. It clearly says a departure from existing scripture, which I have not done.
I preach love within the context of the God's word. Not a love that condones sinful acts. Jesus didnt even do that. Thats moral relativism and it is ascriptural. You are welcome to your opinion, you arent welcome to rewrite the meaning of scripture. Afterall if you arent going to adhere to scripture, why use the Bible at all? Just make up your own religion. It would be alot easier for you and everyone else.
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StevenM
High School Chess Coach .
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07:21 AM on 10/22/2011
Re: "You are welcome to your opinion, you arent welcome to rewrite the meaning of scripture. After all if you arent going to adhere to scripture, why use the Bible at all?"
I've never rewritten the meaning of scripture; rather I've rejected scripture, just like the early Christians did!
Hebrew scripture taught that eating non-kosher was a sin, it taught that one should cease all work on the Sabbath from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown, and it taught that circumcision was an "everlasting covenant." The early Christians rejected scripture. The early Christians taught that it was okay to eat non-kosher, and they taught that one didn't have to be physically circumcised, and they eventually rejected keeping the Sabbath, and instead worshiped on the "Lord's Day" (Sunday).
Furthermore, the early Christians never taught that scripture was the highest authority; rather they held Christ and his gospel as having authority over scripture. They taught that we "have a new covenant, not of letter but of spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life" (2 Cor 3:6); and "if you are led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the law" (Gal 5:18). Conservatives have rejected being led by the Spirit in favor of the dead letter of scripture.
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detroitblkmale30
Wise Men Still Seek Him .
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08:42 AM on 10/22/2011
You are mixing apples and oranges. The New Covenant is accepted by evangelicals and conservatives as well obviously. Unless you seem them keeping kosher? There is support in the New Testament for such things. There is no support however for rejection of the moral laws. Being led by the Spirit means in consultation with the scriptures, not in a "whatever seems right" way.
No, being subject to the law meant that we are not subject to its penalites(death) for our sins since Jesus paid the price for them. WHich is why the Levitical Priestly Codes( blended fabrics, shellfish etc) and things like stoning no longer apply. Not being subject to the law did not however mean that morally we have no further obligation to obey it. Those early Christians were not running around stealing, comitting adultery, incest or bestiality, not justifiably so. They still kept the Lord's Day holy, they simply changed the days. Some liberals favor being led by any spirit over God's word.
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StevenM
High School Chess Coach .
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09:09 AM on 10/22/2011
Re: "There is no support however for rejection of the moral laws."
Your whole diatribe merely argues for my point, since there is nothing immoral about homosexuality.
Re: "They still kept the Lord's Day holy, they simply changed the days."
That is not true, and shows a lack of understanding between the two. It is not merely that the days were changed, but the mode of observing changed as well. Sabbath observance is about not working. The Ten Commandments teach that from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown the whole community should cease work, including children, slaves, livestock, and foreigners. There is nothing in the Ten Commandments about attending a worship service. On the other hand, Christians meet for worship on Sunday, the "Lord's Day", the day after the Sabbath. Many early Christians observed both, the Sabbath (on Saturday) and then on the following day attended Sunday worship. Many Christians were still doing this in the 4th century. Eventually, Sabbath observance died out among the Christians (around the 9th century). But the two are completely different in the days used and the mode of observance.
It was only in the 16th century that some Christians started to mistake Sunday for the Sabbath, in part out of ignorance, and in part out of a desire to pretend that they were following the Ten Commandments. Indeed, "blue laws" in the US are a remnant of this mistaken identity. It is unfortunate how many Christians are simply ignorant of these basic facts.
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tomp0228
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09:54 AM on 10/22/2011
Isn't it amazing that people can so pervert God's word? I thank my Lord Jesus that people like you are willing to tell the truth in the face of so many who aren't interested in the truth.
Maybe by your truthful words, someone will come to accept Christ and His Word.
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detroitblkmale30
Wise Men Still Seek Him .
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11:43 AM on 10/22/2011
um, no it hardly argues for your point. There is according to the scriptures something sinful about same sex acts.Then why in this mostly Christian country even 2,000 years later for the last 100-200 years did we have almost every establishment closed on Sunday? Do people work today? Sure, but you can find numerous establishments closed on Sundays and that is because of grounding in precisely what I said, moving the observance of the Lord's Day to Sunday and for the most part not working. That's why its known typically as a day of rest. It's not an ignorance to the basic facts. Christians know what the original JEWISH sabbath was. Using your argument Christians would observe passover and the other Jewish holidays. None of that however has anything to do with sin of same sex acts listed in both the OT and NT. This is all a strawman argument; because one unrelated law is or isnt obeserved that another is or isnt valid. Its's a reach no matter how you slice it.
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detroitblkmale30
Wise Men Still Seek Him .
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11:49 AM on 10/22/2011
Amen Tomp. That is my only issue. I hate to see the word twisted, not matter what it is twisted in favor of.
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shawnie5
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01:00 PM on 10/22/2011
If you're led by the Spirit the moral law is superfluous because the Spirit won't lead you to violate it anyway. This is what the prophets were foretelling when they said He said He would write His law upon our HEARTS.
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Pale Writer
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01:08 PM on 10/22/2011
I'm not sure if StevenM is correctly understanding what Paul is speaking of in Galatians 5. The letter of the Law was the Old Testament. It does not mean that we are to ignore the instructions given in the New Testament. I'm not sure what "conservatives" out there are abiding by the OT Law and ignoring the Holy Spirit, but I sure don't know any of them.
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iLdoRight
Encouraging The Rightest Rightness For Jesus? .
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04:32 AM on 10/21/2011
Caption suggestion; " Lets be good bad examples "
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Hamid Fana
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01:17 AM on 10/21/2011
Imam Daayiee Abdullah is not inspiring..a quick glimpse of his website shows that he's running a business charging exorbitant rates couseling and conducting marriages ($1000) WHICH under Islamic law are expectations of a community leader (Imam) i.e. free to the community.. not something to make money off of.. historically, the greatest leaders of Muslim communities have not only been religious leaders but also doctors, scientists, authors, warriors, or business men which gave them a source of income so they don't depend on charging people for religious duties.. if a poor Muslim wants to get married, he has the right to it without having to spend thousands to get this fake Imam..... as a queer of Muslim background, i find this guy repulsive.
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TexasTreader
Gone fishin' .
1996 Fans
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11:19 AM on 10/21/2011
The Christian Apostle, Paul, ALSO made a point of supporting himself by his own work. I've always been suspicious of professional clergy. I understand the attraction and I don't see scripture forbidding it but there is a command to not use God's name vainly. I'd sure like to stay on the right side of THAT line.
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FilipeCastro
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11:59 PM on 10/21/2011
I think that the Christian Apostle Paul is a fictional character, but I agree with you.
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BornOKtheFirstTime
pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo .
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01:00 AM on 10/21/2011
It's encouraging that Christianity and Judaism are evolving out of their anti-gay bigotry phase. The authoritarian religionists here who arrogantly think that their anti-gay version of their faith is the correct one are the ones who are being left behind.
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phyrro
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225 Fans
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02:05 AM on 10/21/2011
As a non gay atheist against anti-gay bigotry, I might think that some of these religious leaders are a "start". Not completely understanding all the circumstances I would like to learn what your objections to these "go-gooders" are.
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TomMartin
Freedom and equality. .
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04:30 AM on 10/21/2011
I think you misunderstood the poster.
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Varys
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01:07 PM on 10/21/2011
The anti-gay version of Christianity is the one that acknowledges holy scripture. Whether that's the "correct" one I'll leave for you to decide.
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Balancement
Timendi causa est nescire. -- Seneca .
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12:31 AM on 10/21/2011
I suppose I should wade through the posts below--but I'm carrying with me the wisdom of Bishop John Shelby Spong as a shield: "Too many people use the Bible as a drunk does a lamp-post; for support, rather than illumination."
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ashiraladonai777
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18 Fans
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02:50 PM on 10/23/2011
How do you figure when the vast majority of Americans are Biblically-ILLiterate anymore? They wouldn't know what to stand on let alone use it for support.
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Challlie
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44 Fans
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11:18 PM on 10/23/2011
there are plenty of countries with a more dense population of biblically-literate people. we're at war with a few of them. distance between a person and his or her bible does not equate to distance between a person and god.
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duncansdad
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10:39 PM on 10/20/2011
The postings here by the folks who like to think they are the most religious, are the some of the most vicious and hateful I have seen in a while.
Shame on you all.
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Challlie
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07:48 PM on 10/20/2011
i've noticed a direct relationship between the number of bible quotations in a post and the number of grammatical and spelling errors.
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FilipeCastro
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75 Fans
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12:00 AM on 10/22/2011
:o) I live in Texas and I agree with you!
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ashiraladonai777
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02:49 PM on 10/23/2011
I see. And your lack of capitalization in "I" says nothing either, I take it...? Hubris...
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lastwarning2earth rev14
DeceptionExposer .
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06:53 PM on 10/20/2011
Jesus is the pattern, I follow, and know one else.
There are Many false teachers.
Isa. 8:20 " If they speak not to the Law or the testimony, theres no light in them"
There goes everyone on the above list and then some.
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duncansdad
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10:33 PM on 10/20/2011
And you should go, as well
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Lucy0808
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11:42 PM on 10/20/2011
You missed the whole point of Jesus' teachings. The irony is amazing.
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phyrro
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225 Fans
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02:20 AM on 10/21/2011
You quote "If they speak not to the Law or the testimony, theres no light in them" and I say
"If you speak not my Law or the testimony, theres no light in you". For I, the 53rd OverGod am the the True God and your God is merely a peon.
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StevenM
High School Chess Coach .
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04:07 PM on 10/21/2011
Re: Isa. 8:20 " If they speak not to the Law or the testimony, there's no light in them"
Nothing like misquoting a passage from the Bible out of context to make a point!
Isaiah 8:20 refers to those who seek guidance from ghosts and spirits (see verse 19).
"Now if people say to you, ‘Consult the ghosts and the familiar spirits that chirp and mutter; should not a people consult their gods, the dead on behalf of the living, for teaching and for instruction?’ surely, those who speak like this will have no dawn!" (Isaiah 8:19-20).
Re: "There are Many false teachers."
Should we count you as one of them?
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ashiraladonai777
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18 Fans
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02:53 PM on 10/23/2011
Matthew 7:15
[ A Tree and Its Fruit ] “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
Test yourself...
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StevenM
High School Chess Coach .
554 Fans
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03:25 PM on 10/23/2011
You will know them by their fruit. What fruit is this?
"By contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against such things" (Galatians 5:22-23).
The false prophets preach a message of condemnation and hate. Many conservative Christians supported slavery, then they supported Jim Crow laws and segregation; they fought against federal lynching laws, desegregation and civil rights. In the 1940s, most conservative Christians were Democrats, but as the Democratic Party embraced civil rights, many conservative Christians switched parties from the Democrats to the Republicans, thus making the Republican Party the party of conservative Christians, a direct result of their thinly veiled racism.
Mainline Protestant Churches are inclusive to the point where many of them are now ordaining those in same-sex relationships. But the conservative Christians are like ravenous wolves attempting to condemn and devour anyone who is different. They don't preach God's love, but rather preach condemnation and hate.
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ashiraladonai777
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18 Fans
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09:36 PM on 10/23/2011
On the point of slavery, it wouldn't be the first time that some professing the faith have used it as a cover for other selfish agendas. They have forgotten God in those instances, & one day, they'll have to stand before Him to give an account of their actions.
As regards the ordination of people in same-sex relationships, it has nothing to do with being "different", but it has everything to do w/ what is sinful in Scripture. God's love is already DEFINED: Even Jesus reaffirmed the model of marriage in the NT that was based on the creation model: one man to one woman...for LIFE. Any other model is nothing but a counterfeit of God's model. As God already defined what love is since HE IS LOVE, no man has the authority nor the right to profane that model for their own selfish agenda. What people have chosen to call "love" in our current culture is nothing short of lust masquerading as love...And to push that agenda thru, some have resorted to some interesting tactics. Don't believe me? Look up Marshall Kirk's name...His book, "After the Ball: Why the Homosexual Movement Has Won" & his other work, "The Overhauling of Straight America" only proves this point deeper. I've seen the changes myself over the last 30 yrs...We've come a long way, baby...Truly we have...And we are in deeper doodoo than ever...
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Challlie
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44 Fans
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11:07 PM on 10/23/2011
since when does god's love have boundaries? i read a different book, my friend.
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Challlie
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44 Fans
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10:59 PM on 10/23/2011
be mindful of anyone who offers warnings about anyone else who offers truth regarding a subject whose matter is wholly unverifiable. logic 1:01
one does not strengthen a claim to the truth when there is none by claiming other people are telling you the wrong truth.
you're a false prophet. test yourself. see, just as valid when i say it to you.
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Inspiring LGBT Religious Leaders
By Paul Brandeis Raushenbush Posted: 10/20/2011 1:45 pm EDT | Updated: 09/04/2013 12:21 pm EDT
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Reflecting and shaping the culture in which it is embedded, religion has historically been hostile to LGBT-identified people and communities. However, over the last three decades more denominations, congregations and individuals have come out in support of honoring the full humanity of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered people. Today, hundreds, if not thousands, of religious communities are truly places of celebration, healing and hope for all people.
This initial list of 15 ground breaking individuals is just a sampling of the many LGBT religious leaders who have reclaimed religious traditions and communities. We hope that you will use the feature on this slideshow to add gay religious leaders who you feel should be included. Meanwhile, we thankfully acknowledge the ongoing contributions of these inspiring religious leaders.
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Rev. Patrick S. Cheng, Ph.D.: What Was the Real Sin of Sodom?
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Rev. Patrick S. Cheng, Ph.D.: "Love The Sinner, Hate The Sin" And Other Modern-Day Heresies
I believe those Christians who "hate" LGBT sexualities and gender expressions while allegedly "loving" LGBT people are nothing more than modern-day gnostics, who were condemned as heretical by early Church theologians.
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FilipeCastro
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12:08 AM on 10/22/2011
I am an atheist and could not care less about other peoples sexual lives. I think that it is mean and nosy in a vulgar way to be homophobic. But my problem with these guys is why is it that the Bible thumpers always bring in homophobia and never mention greed?!
I found these quotes that I think are eloquent:
Mathew 19:21: "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
Or Mathew 6:19: "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal."
Or Luke: 12:33: "Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys."
Or Corinthians 6:9-11: "Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, arsenokoitēs, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers, none of these will inherit the kingdom of God. And this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."
Mmmhhh. All this talk about not paying taxes...
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treven
We are the music makers... .
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06:01 AM on 10/22/2011
Do you find it poetically ironic that you quoted a verse condemning homosexuals in your diatribe?
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Lucy0808
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12:22 PM on 10/22/2011
Not really. It wasn't on the list. However, you may put homosexuality in a different bucket of sin and consider it so.
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treven
We are the music makers... .
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03:53 PM on 10/22/2011
Corinthians refers to "arsenokoitēs".
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Lucy0808
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04:11 PM on 10/22/2011
That Greek word does not refer to homosexuality or homosexual sexacts. Please learn the linguistic history of the word and also how it was used first by Paul (decades after the death of Jesus).
It is important to learn a little about the topic.
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Feministo
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09:59 PM on 10/21/2011
Why do LGBT people want to belong to religions (Judaism, Islam, Christianity) whose holy texts condemn homosexuality and whose institutions have traditionally punished homosexcuality, even with the death? Why don't they just reject those religions? I mean, you can theorize as much as you want, contextualize the text, and explore languages and translations, but from statements such as "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination" (Leviticus 18:22) or "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13), you will always have trouble to get a positive statement on homosexuality! Why do LGBT people don just say, thanks but no thanks to religions. Do it and lead the way!
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FilipeCastro
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11:57 PM on 10/21/2011
I fully agree.
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thereisonlyoneparty
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01:24 AM on 10/22/2011
I believe it boils down to the desire to be a part of a group. "Gay" has become a club (largely based around a homogeneous "culture"), but it does not give one any real meaning. It justifies the individual, but not much more.
So people desire to help "religion" as it answers the questions of why we are here (no reason), what is the meaning of life (again, nothing), and why we should be good (no objective reason; arguments of mutual benefit are somewhat valid). Yeah, these groups may be based on texts that say certain actions are "wrong", but "we" (not me and you, but society; I no in the group) can always find a group that ignores those parts and claims that it actually means that "god" is all cools with us.
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Lucy0808
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02:11 AM on 10/22/2011
Leviticus is the most hateful book in the Old Testament (Bible). So many horrible actions are in and supported by the religion. This is before Jesus, fundamentalist Christians do quote this book quite a bit. It is a book that shows a very mean, violent and disfunctional primate god. Not cool at all.
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ladycrisperfst
If I be lost, even so, come Lord Jesus. .
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08:50 PM on 10/21/2011
In this video, I see a man that is making a plea for an earthly relationship by which he is to be judged as wrong, just as those whom do evil to him or the like-minded, by the same God of justice. However, for those who think that telling God’s truth in love is evil or an attack, are wrong. It is what it is for all of us. Here what Jesus told his enemies who tried too trip him up on His Kingdom to come.
Matthew 22: 25- 32 King James Version
Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased , and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh And last of all the woman died also. Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
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Toutlaguerre
eyes tell the story .
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08:21 PM on 10/21/2011
It is shameful when religious leaders proudly advocate sin and immorality as part of their spiritual outreach program. It is a tragedy when people look up to those who show such blatant disregard for his laws and yet claim to be christian. Whilst the bible does not condone discrimination it's position on homosexuality is clear..it is an abomination.
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StevenM
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09:04 PM on 10/21/2011
It is shameful when you proudly advocate homophobic bigotry. Homosexuality is no more a sin than eating non-kosher, both of which were clearly condemned in the Bible.
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thereisonlyoneparty
more amazing than you .
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01:25 AM on 10/22/2011
So you admit is a "sin" in the view of the religion, but do not condemn those who try to utilize those religions to create new teachings to affirm their own views?
This is about feeling good. "God" loves everyone. Even people who do things that "god" does not like or did not mention specifically.
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StevenM
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07:06 AM on 10/22/2011
Re: "So you admit [it] is a "sin" in the view of the religion ..."
No, I admit that the Bible was wrong to call it a sin, just as the Bible was wrong to call eating a hotdog a sin.
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aviandonn
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04:08 PM on 10/22/2011
This is about feeling good.
Or it's about feeling validated in your own personal beliefs. I suspect you feel that validation all the time and think, or course, that it comes from god. Doesn't every bible reader?
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Loggietoad
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11:22 AM on 10/22/2011
You know this argument is weak. Following your logic then murder is simply non-kosher as well.
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StevenM
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11:31 AM on 10/22/2011
Re: "Following your logic then murder is simply non-kosher as well."
You misunderstand. My point is merely that Christians have rejected parts of the Bible. The kosher laws are simply an example. It is unfortunate that so many conservatives have been blinded by their ideology that they cannot tell the difference between a "sin" which causes harm like murder or adultery and a "sin" which does not cause any harm like eating non-kosher or a loving relationship between two consensual adults in a monogamous relationship. Homosexuality is no more a real "sin" than eating a hotdog, yet, both were condemned in the Bible, but neither of them causes any real harm. And neither of them are real sins.
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Loggietoad
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11:43 AM on 10/22/2011
I personally adhere to the Westminster Confession of Faith which divide the laws into moral, civil, and ceremonial categories. I believe all moral laws still apply, as did Paul and every other writer in the New Testament.
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StevenM
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11:48 AM on 10/22/2011
Re: "I believe all moral laws still apply, as did Paul and every other writer in the New Testament."
So do I!
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FilipeCastro
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11:58 PM on 10/21/2011
Relax. God does not exist and sins are inventions of maladjusted minds.
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whatsupcastleman
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04:54 PM on 10/22/2011
What is your reference point for morality ? Do you define good and evil ? Can your definition of good, be someone else's definition of evil ? I may believe murder is good, but you may think it is evil. If I applied my equally valid view to end your life, your construct would be voided out by mine.
This is all untrue though. Man has a certain knowledge of the truth written on their heart. This is why most people know stealing, telling lies, and murder are wrong.
But, that truth is suppressed in unrighteousness. People say God does not exist. But, it's obvious to me that a certain law is natural to man revealed in the creation.
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Lucy0808
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02:14 AM on 10/22/2011
It is a trajedy that people are so obsessed with their shariah law which includes being obsessed with sexual organs and how they are used. It is a shame that they are so obsessed with this and miss the most basic teachings of Jesus of compassion, forgiveness and helping the least among us. Of giving up your material goods. Of developing an open heart and a questioning and open mind to see objective truth.
It is astonishing how people cling to their rules and miss the point of it all. Life is so short and they miss life.
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Toutlaguerre
eyes tell the story .
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02:40 PM on 10/22/2011
It is equally troubling that people who claim not to miss the most basic teachings of Jesus such as love, compassion and forgiveness ignore the most basic tenets of morality, such as prohibition of the expression of sexual feelings between two individuals of the same sex. Life is to short to miss that one.
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Lucy0808
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02:59 PM on 10/22/2011
Your bigotry is as plain as day.
There are all sort of rules of shariah the Christians have and yet you are focusing on homosexuality and so called naught parts and how they are used. These people are people of love and loving other people. They are born as homosexuals. The include food you can and cannot eat. Clothing you can and can't wear. Not being around people and having sex in mensus. Rules about slavery and women under subjugation. Giving away your material goods and so on. Yet you are obsessed with homosexuality and people expressing love. They aren't expressing hate nor are they behaving poorly. Yet this is what you focus on. I think that is incredibly sad. I would guess that you haven't dedicated your life to be a preacher and given up most of your material wealth. I would guess that you likely haven't given as much as 15% of your income to the least among us. I would guess that you haven't made your life in the way taught by Jesus. Yet you are here obsessing over homosexuality (people born to it) and their expression of love and ministry, and the way of Jesus.
Yes, I think you are a hypocrite. A shallow one. One not guided by love.
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Toutlaguerre
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01:59 AM on 10/23/2011
The topic of this post was homosexuality so those other laws that you mention as a means of petty fogging the issue are for another discussion. Let's focus from here on the original topic. Whilst it is commendable that people are able to show love to each other and give to other people the bible at 1 Sam 15:22 says, " It is better to obey than to sacrifice". Obedience requires modesty .ie. there are limits within which we can operate in order to please God. The limit on sexual intercourse is between two adults of the opposite sex that are married to each other. There is nothing that you can say to nullify that fundamental truth from God's word the bible. I am going to go out a limb here and say that "naught parts" refer to sexual organs and how they are being used. It is argued that there are people who are born with genetic dispositions to alcoholism etc but somehow they strive to do what is acceptable to God. So even if a person believes in their heart that they are genetically disposed to use their naught parts in homosexual acts, it is no excuse.
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BornOKtheFirstTime
pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo .
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11:52 AM on 10/22/2011
LOL. Many Christians and Jews do not believe the bible is the infallible word of god, but reflects the biases and misunderstandings of the men who wrote it and of the times in which they lived. Likewise they do not think that the passages in Leviticus, Romans, and 1 Corinthians apply to modern LGBTs in committed, loving, non-exploitative relationships.
You arrogantly believe that your authoritarian, fundamentalist approach is the only correct one. You falsely claim that you know the mind of god. For whatever personal reasons of your own, you have chosen the anti-gay version of your religion. Many would say that that is an abomination.
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Toutlaguerre
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02:27 PM on 10/22/2011
It would indeed be an abomination if I did use an authoritarian, fundamentalist approach, or shared the views of "many christians and Jews who who do not believe the bible is the unfallible word of God". Instead I choose Theocracy i.e rule by God. You should try that sometime so that you would not have to resort to calling someone who does not share your opinion arrogant. It might also be helpful if you read the context of those scriptures in Leviticus, Romans and 1 Corinthians with an honest heart and mind. For the one in Romans especially (Roman 1:32) shows that deep down inside a person practicing things the bible condemns knows exactly what they are doing. This as you can see has nothing to do with my "personal reasons" but the law of God, just so you know that it is God who has the absolute authority to decide what is right or wrong.
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BornOKtheFirstTime
pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo .
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05:51 PM on 10/22/2011
Then it's even worse than I imagined. Theocracy is the enemy of our American secular constitutional government.
Leviticus refers to idolatrous practices of temple prostitution and pederasty. Most of Paul's stuff condemning certain homosexual acts reflects Leviticus (hence his coining of arsenokoites to mimic the Hebrew in LEviticus) and again has nothing whatsoever to do with modern LGBTs in loving, committed, non-exploitative relationships. As for Romans, if you read it with a pure and open heart, you see it has to do with heterosexuals, not people who are born predominately homosexual.
And it doesn't make much difference, since the people who wrote those words had only a limited understanding of human sexuality, sexual orientation and gender identity in the first place. Just as they had a limited understanding of the germ theory of disease.
You've simply chosen to project onto god and the bible your own anti-gay bigotry, thereby making yourself feel righteous and safe. But the traditions are changing. You will be left behind.
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Toutlaguerre
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04:20 PM on 10/23/2011
I think this phrase, "And it doesn't make much difference, since the people who wrote those words had only a limited understanding of human sexuality, sexual orientation and gender identity in the first place." is the key to understanding your pattern of reasoning. There is a saying that you can bring a horse to the pond but you cannot make him drink. The tragedy in a statement like that is you completely disregard the fact that the author of the bible is God and the principles and thoughts therein are not from "the people who wrote those words" but God. A person of this view will hardly appreciate that God's principles do not change even if people's outlook on them do. Rom 3:4 advises us " But let God be found true, though every man be found a liar"
It takes prayer ,meditation and desire to do the right thing in God's eyes to appreciate this level of spiritual thinking.
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BornOKtheFirstTime
pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo .
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05:22 PM on 10/23/2011
You reveal the essential flaw and foolishness of your position in the statement, "the author of the bible is God and the principles and thoughts therein are not from "the people who wrote those words" but God". That clearly shows the childish naivete of your understanding. The Bible is the record of the attempts of iron age Jewish men to understand how the world works and to encode the rules of conduct which they believed at the time were correct for their culture. They fit into the pattern of many ancient law givers who purport that their laws have been handed down by a deity, just as Hammurabi represented his famous code of laws as being handed down by the sun god Shamash. This gives the laws an appearence of greater authority. The ancient Israelites were no different in that respect. Unfortunately by mistaking the words of iron age Israelites and Jews for the ultimate and final word of god you are cutting yourself off from the living spirit of god. You arrogantly and foolishly believe that your way is the correct and only way. This leads you not only to limit your understanding of the world, but also to commit grave injustices against those of other faith traditions, such as Hindus and Muslims, and against the LGBT community. You have mistaken the bible for god. And that is a pitiable way to lead a life--in a darkness that you mistake for light.
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Lucy0808
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03:53 PM on 10/22/2011
You are simply a bigot.
These people practice love and lives of love. They dedicate their lives to helping others. How many can say that. Yet you are here obsessed with what you many call "naughty bits" and how they are used. That is so profoundly disfunctional. You miss the entire point of Jesus' teachings. It is sad.
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Toutlaguerre
eyes tell the story .
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01:34 AM on 10/23/2011
Lucy, in my first post on this topic I clearly said that whilst the bible does not encourage discrimination it condemns homosexuality. So whilst you should not hate the person, it is grossly hypocritical for anyone to disregard Jesus' teachings on homosexual acts and yet claim that they understand what love is. What about love for God and Jesus and their teachings? Anyone that thinks practicing something immoral (whether in love or not) makes it acceptable has certainly missed the point about love for God and his son Jesus. It is painful that anyone would treat the moral laws and principles of such a loving God with utter disdain and disregard. In the first century if anyone was a practicer of homosexuality, fornication, etc they had to conform or change their ways if they desired to please God 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 plainly says "that is what some of you were". Jesus as the head of the congregation directed Paul to write these words.If you really cared anything about Jesus or his teachings you would never disregard his teachings on this matter. This is not a personal agenda I am pushing for I am not the author of the bible, God is. I am not the one condemning homosexuality, the teachings of God and Jesus already has that covered. So whether in a loving committed relationship or not homosexuality is wrong, plain and simple.
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Mychaeltodd Robinson
Min.Mychaeltodd, Executive Director of Fig Leaf Fi .
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07:50 PM on 10/21/2011
I'm so thankful to have had a Pastor & mentor like Bishop Yvette Flunder- she has a big heart, she's smart, she love's her people and she loves GOD!- Min.MYCHAELTODD
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TheWM
aka The Wrong Monkey .
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03:06 PM on 10/21/2011
"Reflecting and shaping the culture in which it is embedded, religion has historically been hostile to LGBT-identified people and communities."
No, not all religions have had that problem. Hard as that may be to imagine to some people who are familiar primarily with Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
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BornOKtheFirstTime
pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo .
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01:01 PM on 10/21/2011
74% of American Catholics support legal recognition of same-sex unions (43% for marriage, 31% for civil unions). 44% young evangelicals support same-sex marraige. Reform, Reconstructionist, and Conservative Jews celebrate same-sex unions and ordain openly gay rabbis. They have come to the sensible conclusion that the Levitican prohibitions were targeting idolatrous practices of temple-prostitution or pederasty or else do not reflect a complete understanding of human sexuality. In either case, they have concluded it is unjust to apply them to modern LGBTs in loving, committed, non-exploitative religions.
The Judaeo-Christian tradition is transforming itself, from the bottom-up. As science establishes the fact that homosexuality is normal and natural, that same-sex couples raise children that are just as healthy as straight couples, that same-sex couples profit from the stability that marriages and cvil unions confer, is it surprising that large numbers of Christians and Jews are seeing that it is the old anti-gay versions which seek to exclude LGBTs or impose unjust and discriminatory restrictions on their behavior that are, in fact, the false teachings and the false doctrines--false teachings which the ears of the anti-gay bigots and authoritarians still itch to hear?
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thereisonlyoneparty
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01:28 AM on 10/22/2011
The Judaeo-Christian tradition is transforming itself, from the bottom-up. As science establishes the fact that homosexuality is normal and natural
Normal? No. Normal is what is expected. Suicide is not normal, for example, but it is natural. Note that normal is not a value judgment. It is just an observation of what is common in occurrence.
what does natural have to do with anything? Clothes are unnatural. So is agriculture and animal husbandry. And computers.
Religion is about morality. Morality has nothing to do with "natural." It is "natural" to have lots of sexual partners over the life of an individual ("serial monogamy"), but religion does not claim that is "good."
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Anthony Steven Lewis
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09:32 AM on 10/22/2011
I'm guessing this what brought up as many opponents of that lifestyle tout it as "unnatural" and therefore against the will of God (since he created nature and all).
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jaggeththewires
God said what? .
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01:20 PM on 10/22/2011
Catholics dont adhere to the bible teachings ie. calling Pope father, lighting candles for the dead, pergatory, doing pennance for sins changing the sabbath from sat to sun, praying to idols and other humans... need I go on?
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BornOKtheFirstTime
pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo .
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02:05 PM on 10/22/2011
Worshiping the bible as you seem to do is not the only way. The bible was written by men for men to control men and reflects the limited understanding of people of that time. Need I go on?
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jaggeththewires
God said what? .
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02:23 PM on 10/22/2011
I worship the true and living God. The scriptures are His word sent so that we could know Him. People of that time created the pyramids. Aint a building today show a more comprehensive understanding. Say what?
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BornOKtheFirstTime
pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo .
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03:45 PM on 10/22/2011
LOL! You need to throw that bible of yours away. It's thoroughly confused you. You no more know that you are worshiping the true and living god than does a Muslim or a Hindu. And your approach of worshipping the bible has no more intrinsic merit than those Christians who see the bible as the work of fallible humans through which the spirit of god can nonetheless be discerned. You"ve just chosen the anti-gay version of Christianity to justify your own anti-gay bigotry and make yourself feel better. You arrogantly pretend that you know the mind of god. Others use the bible in a different way.
No ancient Egyptian architect could build the Petronas Towers. But modern architects could build a pyramid. Egyptians had a limited understand of architectural possibilities, techniques and materials.
The average Egyptian lifespan was 33 for men and 29 for women. Looks like they didn't have it all figured out on the medical front either.
People back then were limited--as was their understanding of sexual orientation and gender identity.
Fortunately Judaism and Christianity are evolving to become LGBT inclusive and LGBT affirming.
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jaggeththewires
God said what? .
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03:58 PM on 10/22/2011
What is to understand? God in His word said it is unseemly behavior that ought not to be. He created man. How you gonna tell Him he dont know what He is talking about?
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LintLass
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06:03 PM on 10/22/2011
You already have. But you and your fear of 'idols.' Catholics say 'Pagans do that,' Protestants say 'Catholics do that, ' ...since when or Protestants authorities on what Pagans do, never mind what Catholics say the difference is, when they pretty much make the same ignorant accusations ...None of which seem to be premised on more than the idea that someone else doesn't know how to pray even in proximity to some kind of statue or something? (Of course, then, some Muslims will say that Protestants use too many images...) :) On and on.
Then on through maybe various branches of Buddhism saying, 'That's all illusion, too,' on to Zen saying *whack* It really isn't not-illusion! Then atheists being, 'No it's not,' then we're back to animists and the like being, 'You know it's all alive, anyway, ' then we're back to Pagans being like, 'And now we're going to keeping this grove, maybe carve something in it.
You're just part of this whole grand cycle of people trying to have a spiritual life in a world with ...stuff in it. :)
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jaggeththewires
God said what? .
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06:16 PM on 10/22/2011
WTH?
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Stand Up for your Belief
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328 Fans
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01:41 PM on 10/22/2011
People need to get away from "tradition" and MAN made religion and follow what the Bible says.
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BornOKtheFirstTime
pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo .
268 Fans
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02:10 PM on 10/22/2011
LOL! The bible was written by men for men to control men. It reflects all the limitations and prejudices of the men who wrote it. People need to evolve beyond their narrow bibliolatry.
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StevenM
High School Chess Coach .
554 Fans
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03:54 PM on 10/21/2011
Re: "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."
2 Tim. 4:3-4 15 leaders that fit the above scripture.
Or, it could be your notion of Christianity fits the above scripture best. Your view of Christian seems to have all the trappings of Christianity without the love and compassion. Instead of love, you preach a religion of hate and animosity towards those who are different.
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detroitblkmale30
Wise Men Still Seek Him .
722 Fans
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10:28 PM on 10/21/2011
No it couldnt be that actually since the above scripture embodies the other existing scriptures such as the ones found in Leviticus and Romans. It clearly says a departure from existing scripture, which I have not done.
I preach love within the context of the God's word. Not a love that condones sinful acts. Jesus didnt even do that. Thats moral relativism and it is ascriptural. You are welcome to your opinion, you arent welcome to rewrite the meaning of scripture. Afterall if you arent going to adhere to scripture, why use the Bible at all? Just make up your own religion. It would be alot easier for you and everyone else.
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StevenM
High School Chess Coach .
554 Fans
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07:21 AM on 10/22/2011
Re: "You are welcome to your opinion, you arent welcome to rewrite the meaning of scripture. After all if you arent going to adhere to scripture, why use the Bible at all?"
I've never rewritten the meaning of scripture; rather I've rejected scripture, just like the early Christians did!
Hebrew scripture taught that eating non-kosher was a sin, it taught that one should cease all work on the Sabbath from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown, and it taught that circumcision was an "everlasting covenant." The early Christians rejected scripture. The early Christians taught that it was okay to eat non-kosher, and they taught that one didn't have to be physically circumcised, and they eventually rejected keeping the Sabbath, and instead worshiped on the "Lord's Day" (Sunday).
Furthermore, the early Christians never taught that scripture was the highest authority; rather they held Christ and his gospel as having authority over scripture. They taught that we "have a new covenant, not of letter but of spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life" (2 Cor 3:6); and "if you are led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the law" (Gal 5:18). Conservatives have rejected being led by the Spirit in favor of the dead letter of scripture.
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detroitblkmale30
Wise Men Still Seek Him .
722 Fans
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08:42 AM on 10/22/2011
You are mixing apples and oranges. The New Covenant is accepted by evangelicals and conservatives as well obviously. Unless you seem them keeping kosher? There is support in the New Testament for such things. There is no support however for rejection of the moral laws. Being led by the Spirit means in consultation with the scriptures, not in a "whatever seems right" way.
No, being subject to the law meant that we are not subject to its penalites(death) for our sins since Jesus paid the price for them. WHich is why the Levitical Priestly Codes( blended fabrics, shellfish etc) and things like stoning no longer apply. Not being subject to the law did not however mean that morally we have no further obligation to obey it. Those early Christians were not running around stealing, comitting adultery, incest or bestiality, not justifiably so. They still kept the Lord's Day holy, they simply changed the days. Some liberals favor being led by any spirit over God's word.
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StevenM
High School Chess Coach .
554 Fans
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09:09 AM on 10/22/2011
Re: "There is no support however for rejection of the moral laws."
Your whole diatribe merely argues for my point, since there is nothing immoral about homosexuality.
Re: "They still kept the Lord's Day holy, they simply changed the days."
That is not true, and shows a lack of understanding between the two. It is not merely that the days were changed, but the mode of observing changed as well. Sabbath observance is about not working. The Ten Commandments teach that from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown the whole community should cease work, including children, slaves, livestock, and foreigners. There is nothing in the Ten Commandments about attending a worship service. On the other hand, Christians meet for worship on Sunday, the "Lord's Day", the day after the Sabbath. Many early Christians observed both, the Sabbath (on Saturday) and then on the following day attended Sunday worship. Many Christians were still doing this in the 4th century. Eventually, Sabbath observance died out among the Christians (around the 9th century). But the two are completely different in the days used and the mode of observance.
It was only in the 16th century that some Christians started to mistake Sunday for the Sabbath, in part out of ignorance, and in part out of a desire to pretend that they were following the Ten Commandments. Indeed, "blue laws" in the US are a remnant of this mistaken identity. It is unfortunate how many Christians are simply ignorant of these basic facts.
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tomp0228
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92 Fans
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09:54 AM on 10/22/2011
Isn't it amazing that people can so pervert God's word? I thank my Lord Jesus that people like you are willing to tell the truth in the face of so many who aren't interested in the truth.
Maybe by your truthful words, someone will come to accept Christ and His Word.
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detroitblkmale30
Wise Men Still Seek Him .
722 Fans
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11:43 AM on 10/22/2011
um, no it hardly argues for your point. There is according to the scriptures something sinful about same sex acts.Then why in this mostly Christian country even 2,000 years later for the last 100-200 years did we have almost every establishment closed on Sunday? Do people work today? Sure, but you can find numerous establishments closed on Sundays and that is because of grounding in precisely what I said, moving the observance of the Lord's Day to Sunday and for the most part not working. That's why its known typically as a day of rest. It's not an ignorance to the basic facts. Christians know what the original JEWISH sabbath was. Using your argument Christians would observe passover and the other Jewish holidays. None of that however has anything to do with sin of same sex acts listed in both the OT and NT. This is all a strawman argument; because one unrelated law is or isnt obeserved that another is or isnt valid. Its's a reach no matter how you slice it.
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detroitblkmale30
Wise Men Still Seek Him .
722 Fans
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11:49 AM on 10/22/2011
Amen Tomp. That is my only issue. I hate to see the word twisted, not matter what it is twisted in favor of.
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shawnie5
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103 Fans
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01:00 PM on 10/22/2011
If you're led by the Spirit the moral law is superfluous because the Spirit won't lead you to violate it anyway. This is what the prophets were foretelling when they said He said He would write His law upon our HEARTS.
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Pale Writer
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246 Fans
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01:08 PM on 10/22/2011
I'm not sure if StevenM is correctly understanding what Paul is speaking of in Galatians 5. The letter of the Law was the Old Testament. It does not mean that we are to ignore the instructions given in the New Testament. I'm not sure what "conservatives" out there are abiding by the OT Law and ignoring the Holy Spirit, but I sure don't know any of them.
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iLdoRight
Encouraging The Rightest Rightness For Jesus? .
136 Fans
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04:32 AM on 10/21/2011
Caption suggestion; " Lets be good bad examples "
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Hamid Fana
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19 Fans
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01:17 AM on 10/21/2011
Imam Daayiee Abdullah is not inspiring..a quick glimpse of his website shows that he's running a business charging exorbitant rates couseling and conducting marriages ($1000) WHICH under Islamic law are expectations of a community leader (Imam) i.e. free to the community.. not something to make money off of.. historically, the greatest leaders of Muslim communities have not only been religious leaders but also doctors, scientists, authors, warriors, or business men which gave them a source of income so they don't depend on charging people for religious duties.. if a poor Muslim wants to get married, he has the right to it without having to spend thousands to get this fake Imam..... as a queer of Muslim background, i find this guy repulsive.
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TexasTreader
Gone fishin' .
1996 Fans
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11:19 AM on 10/21/2011
The Christian Apostle, Paul, ALSO made a point of supporting himself by his own work. I've always been suspicious of professional clergy. I understand the attraction and I don't see scripture forbidding it but there is a command to not use God's name vainly. I'd sure like to stay on the right side of THAT line.
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FilipeCastro
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75 Fans
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11:59 PM on 10/21/2011
I think that the Christian Apostle Paul is a fictional character, but I agree with you.
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BornOKtheFirstTime
pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo .
268 Fans
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01:00 AM on 10/21/2011
It's encouraging that Christianity and Judaism are evolving out of their anti-gay bigotry phase. The authoritarian religionists here who arrogantly think that their anti-gay version of their faith is the correct one are the ones who are being left behind.
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phyrro
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225 Fans
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02:05 AM on 10/21/2011
As a non gay atheist against anti-gay bigotry, I might think that some of these religious leaders are a "start". Not completely understanding all the circumstances I would like to learn what your objections to these "go-gooders" are.
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TomMartin
Freedom and equality. .
347 Fans
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04:30 AM on 10/21/2011
I think you misunderstood the poster.
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Varys
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389 Fans
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01:07 PM on 10/21/2011
The anti-gay version of Christianity is the one that acknowledges holy scripture. Whether that's the "correct" one I'll leave for you to decide.
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Balancement
Timendi causa est nescire. -- Seneca .
3905 Fans
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12:31 AM on 10/21/2011
I suppose I should wade through the posts below--but I'm carrying with me the wisdom of Bishop John Shelby Spong as a shield: "Too many people use the Bible as a drunk does a lamp-post; for support, rather than illumination."
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ashiraladonai777
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18 Fans
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02:50 PM on 10/23/2011
How do you figure when the vast majority of Americans are Biblically-ILLiterate anymore? They wouldn't know what to stand on let alone use it for support.
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Challlie
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44 Fans
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11:18 PM on 10/23/2011
there are plenty of countries with a more dense population of biblically-literate people. we're at war with a few of them. distance between a person and his or her bible does not equate to distance between a person and god.
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duncansdad
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878 Fans
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10:39 PM on 10/20/2011
The postings here by the folks who like to think they are the most religious, are the some of the most vicious and hateful I have seen in a while.
Shame on you all.
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Challlie
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44 Fans
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07:48 PM on 10/20/2011
i've noticed a direct relationship between the number of bible quotations in a post and the number of grammatical and spelling errors.
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FilipeCastro
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75 Fans
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12:00 AM on 10/22/2011
:o) I live in Texas and I agree with you!
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ashiraladonai777
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18 Fans
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02:49 PM on 10/23/2011
I see. And your lack of capitalization in "I" says nothing either, I take it...? Hubris...
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lastwarning2earth rev14
DeceptionExposer .
101 Fans
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06:53 PM on 10/20/2011
Jesus is the pattern, I follow, and know one else.
There are Many false teachers.
Isa. 8:20 " If they speak not to the Law or the testimony, theres no light in them"
There goes everyone on the above list and then some.
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duncansdad
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878 Fans
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10:33 PM on 10/20/2011
And you should go, as well
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Lucy0808
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1196 Fans
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11:42 PM on 10/20/2011
You missed the whole point of Jesus' teachings. The irony is amazing.
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phyrro
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225 Fans
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02:20 AM on 10/21/2011
You quote "If they speak not to the Law or the testimony, theres no light in them" and I say
"If you speak not my Law or the testimony, theres no light in you". For I, the 53rd OverGod am the the True God and your God is merely a peon.
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StevenM
High School Chess Coach .
554 Fans
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04:07 PM on 10/21/2011
Re: Isa. 8:20 " If they speak not to the Law or the testimony, there's no light in them"
Nothing like misquoting a passage from the Bible out of context to make a point!
Isaiah 8:20 refers to those who seek guidance from ghosts and spirits (see verse 19).
"Now if people say to you, ‘Consult the ghosts and the familiar spirits that chirp and mutter; should not a people consult their gods, the dead on behalf of the living, for teaching and for instruction?’ surely, those who speak like this will have no dawn!" (Isaiah 8:19-20).
Re: "There are Many false teachers."
Should we count you as one of them?
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ashiraladonai777
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18 Fans
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02:53 PM on 10/23/2011
Matthew 7:15
[ A Tree and Its Fruit ] “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
Test yourself...
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StevenM
High School Chess Coach .
554 Fans
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03:25 PM on 10/23/2011
You will know them by their fruit. What fruit is this?
"By contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against such things" (Galatians 5:22-23).
The false prophets preach a message of condemnation and hate. Many conservative Christians supported slavery, then they supported Jim Crow laws and segregation; they fought against federal lynching laws, desegregation and civil rights. In the 1940s, most conservative Christians were Democrats, but as the Democratic Party embraced civil rights, many conservative Christians switched parties from the Democrats to the Republicans, thus making the Republican Party the party of conservative Christians, a direct result of their thinly veiled racism.
Mainline Protestant Churches are inclusive to the point where many of them are now ordaining those in same-sex relationships. But the conservative Christians are like ravenous wolves attempting to condemn and devour anyone who is different. They don't preach God's love, but rather preach condemnation and hate.
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ashiraladonai777
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18 Fans
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09:36 PM on 10/23/2011
On the point of slavery, it wouldn't be the first time that some professing the faith have used it as a cover for other selfish agendas. They have forgotten God in those instances, & one day, they'll have to stand before Him to give an account of their actions.
As regards the ordination of people in same-sex relationships, it has nothing to do with being "different", but it has everything to do w/ what is sinful in Scripture. God's love is already DEFINED: Even Jesus reaffirmed the model of marriage in the NT that was based on the creation model: one man to one woman...for LIFE. Any other model is nothing but a counterfeit of God's model. As God already defined what love is since HE IS LOVE, no man has the authority nor the right to profane that model for their own selfish agenda. What people have chosen to call "love" in our current culture is nothing short of lust masquerading as love...And to push that agenda thru, some have resorted to some interesting tactics. Don't believe me? Look up Marshall Kirk's name...His book, "After the Ball: Why the Homosexual Movement Has Won" & his other work, "The Overhauling of Straight America" only proves this point deeper. I've seen the changes myself over the last 30 yrs...We've come a long way, baby...Truly we have...And we are in deeper doodoo than ever...
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Challlie
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44 Fans
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11:07 PM on 10/23/2011
since when does god's love have boundaries? i read a different book, my friend.
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Challlie
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44 Fans
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10:59 PM on 10/23/2011
be mindful of anyone who offers warnings about anyone else who offers truth regarding a subject whose matter is wholly unverifiable. logic 1:01
one does not strengthen a claim to the truth when there is none by claiming other people are telling you the wrong truth.
you're a false prophet. test yourself. see, just as valid when i say it to you.
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Reflecting and shaping the culture in which it is embedded, religion has historically been hostile to LGBT-identified people and communities. However, over the last three decades more denominations, congregations and individuals have come out in support of honoring the full humanity of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered people. Today, hundreds, if not thousands, of religious communities are truly places of celebration, healing and hope for all people.
This initial list of 15 ground breaking individuals is just a sampling of the many LGBT religious leaders who have reclaimed religious traditions and communities. We hope that you will use the feature on this slideshow to add gay religious leaders who you feel should be included. Meanwhile, we thankfully acknowledge the ongoing contributions of these inspiring religious leaders.
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Most Inspiring LGBT Religious Leaders
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Read more from Huffington Post bloggers:
Rev. Dr. Mark Achtemeier
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Nancy Cronk
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Lee Jefferson
Rev. Dr. Mark Achtemeier
Rev. Dr. Mark Achtemeier: Coming Out as an Evangelical Supporter of Gay Rights
When I was ordained in 1984 I believed that gay and lesbian people could become "normal" through repentance and prayer. But in the last decade, I began to discover that God had other plans.
Chely Wright
Chely Wright: Confessions of a Gay Christian Country Singer
The very root of who I am and the core of what Country Music seems to be about is honesty, openness and accessibility. But I had to close myself off in order to survive.
Rev. Patrick S. Cheng, Ph.D.
Rev. Patrick S. Cheng, Ph.D.: What Was the Real Sin of Sodom?
The true sin of the Sodomites as described in the Bible has nothing to do with same-sex acts per se. Rather, the ancient Sodomites were punished by God for a far greater sins: radical inhospitality.
Rev. Patrick S. Cheng, Ph.D.
Rev. Patrick S. Cheng, Ph.D.: "Love The Sinner, Hate The Sin" And Other Modern-Day Heresies
I believe those Christians who "hate" LGBT sexualities and gender expressions while allegedly "loving" LGBT people are nothing more than modern-day gnostics, who were condemned as heretical by early Church theologians.
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iknowscottyknows
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06:49 PM on 10/20/2011
Enjoy the little limelight you have while you can.
"As for man, his days are as grass, like the flower of the field so he flourishes. Then the wind passes over and it is gone, and the place thereof knows it no more." Psalm 103:15
"It is appointed once for a man to die, then the judgment." Hebrews 9:27
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Lucy0808
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11:43 PM on 10/20/2011
"Limelight"? Huh?
"Life" is the word. A powerful word, indeed.
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phyrro
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02:23 AM on 10/21/2011
Leave the "then the judgment" out and your on to something.
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ashiraladonai777
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02:55 PM on 10/23/2011
I take it you don't like that word, "judgment". But you do realize that your comment IS itself a judment. God is the Ultimate Judge. We all will stand before Him one day.
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Challlie
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11:03 PM on 10/23/2011
your comment is itself a judgment. the ultimate judge does not need a peanut gallery.
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yeshuachrist
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06:44 PM on 10/20/2011
The church is supposed to be "in" the world, not "of" the world. Yeshua's teachings are not easy to follow, they do not include adhering to the respect of persons, you treat people with righteousness, and love, but love doesn't include appeasement of someones iniquities. There is a major sea change in the world with regard to how people view G-D. They have lost their fear of him as the fear of G-D is only understood as the fear of retribution, which is misguided. We only focus on the love of Christ, not his teaching's. No person deserves to be persecuted, all people should be treated with general respect but the church ceases being a church once they begin "accepting" iniquity because they want to be "accepted" in this world.
http://www.yahwehyeshua.com
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Lucy0808
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11:46 PM on 10/20/2011
Love. All there is, is love. Love thy neighbor. Turn the other cheek. Help the least among us. Love.
It is not about the "church". It has never been.
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ashiraladonai777
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02:46 PM on 10/23/2011
God is love. As such, He alone has the right to tell us how true love is defined as He'd wired us in His image. But people being what they are have redefined love to suit themselves. Storge, Phileo, Eros, & Agape...It seems like people have gotten fixated on the Eros part & twisted it to suit an agenda anymore when even that part had a design & purpose.
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phyrro
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02:41 AM on 10/21/2011
You must so be terrified of G-D that you can't even spell his name out or maybe you ran out of "o"s. I can send you some in fact here are bunch of them.
o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o and some capital ones also O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O if you run out I got plenty more.
From your enclosed email address it appears you have no problem with YAHW-H. I personally am terrified of him and could never spell him YAHWEH. Oh No. Now I've gone and done it.
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TomMartin
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04:41 AM on 10/21/2011
Don't forget that the word God, which you spell G-D, is of pagan origin, not Christian or Jewish.
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Willie12345
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09:23 AM on 10/21/2011
Well said.
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detroitblkmale30
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10:17 AM on 10/21/2011
I couldnt have said it any better. The other repliers have to rely on a twisting on the scriptures to justify their views. There is more to the word of God than just love, there is accountability and obedience.
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Lucy0808
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04:52 PM on 10/21/2011
The whole point of the way of love is to bypass the small minded trapping of rules for the sake of rules. The whole point is to see the world with compassion and act within it.
Your focus on accountability "punishment" or "heaven reward" is counter to creating an open heart. It is the positioning of a Homo Sapien over another Homo Sapien. In otherwords, it is pure Homo Sapien behavior of rulership.
Gods that are obsessed over human sexual organs aren't really gods or a god. It is a projection of Homo Sapien subjective perception of themselves. It is our human biology and fundamental behavior exibited by our human brain-mind. If an alien was observing us, it would be crystal clear, but it "we" that have a difficult time recognizing ourselves in our gods.
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detroitblkmale30
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10:32 PM on 10/21/2011
The whole point of love however is NOT to bypass God's word. If that were the case any sin any action would be allowable as long as "love" is concerned. You could make a justification for any sin using love as a motivation. The whole point is to usher in forgiveness and grace. When you love someone you honor what they say, in this case God's word.
No one can have an open heart without being open to every whim. No it doesnt position one person over another, it KEEPS God ahead of mankind. Your position places mankind over God. God isnt obsessed with human organs, that is one of many sins which include far more than sexual organs.
Alien? you are drifting off the deep end. It doesnt really even matter though since you are not a Christian, we arent even debating on the same plane.
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Lucy0808
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01:42 AM on 10/22/2011
Not at all.
My opinion is that your gods are a figment of your subjective mind. That is it.
The rest of your post is your subjective belief. Only that. That is my opinion and since there is no proof of your gods, it is a reasoned opinion.
Your idea of sin is uniquely biological for our species. It is strange to make that some type of sin rules dictated by a sexual organ obsessed deity. However, I understand that is your belief. Homo Sapiens have a history with over many thousands of gods. Are you saying only your is real and all of the thousands upon thousands of other gods are not?
Compassion, forgiveness and helping the least among us is the way. It is sad that you are obsessed with Homo Sapien shariah. Some are and miss the whole way of being with an open heart and mind.
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detroitblkmale30
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08:19 AM on 10/22/2011
You are welcome to your opinion. Its wrong, but you are welcome to it. It is not an "opinion" That is something inate to my mind without any other grounds for belief. Clearly I have other grounds for belief. Once again it is your opinion that God is obsessed with sex organs, that is but ONE of dozens of concepts that God focuses on. He is obsessed with all aspects of the lives of his creations. Yes I am saying mine is real, and that is definitely within the realm of possibility.
You are the one obsessed with "homo sapien" whatever you keep using it. You speak like an alien. Are you not a human being too? I have an open heart, I just dont believe that my faith calls me to have an open mind to the extent that I believe whatever popular opinion says. What's the point of even having a faith then?
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Lucy0808
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02:01 AM on 10/22/2011
My belief is that you have a monkey god. A primate god. A Homo Sapien god. Everything about it smell, sounds, and has the behavior of a Homo Sapien with super powers. Like the historic thousands upon thousands of gods. They are all Homo Sapien projections. Is that surprising? Hardly. We don't have kitty gods or snake gods or insect gods. We don't have plant gods. Our gods are uniquely human. Same thinking patters. Same biological emotions. Same obsession with our biology and sexual organs and contact. Support of slavery and subjugation of women. What food to eat. What cloth to wear. Avoidance of sex during women's menstrual cycle. Hopefully, humans can grow up and recognize themselves in their gods. With the tools of reason and science it is apparent to such a high level that one must practice daily cognitive dissonance to deny it. As the reality outside us is explained more and more, and the subjective reality explained for our inner machinations (consciousness, memory, language, ethics/morals, feelings of other people around us, feelings of spirits and gods). All explained by simple constructs by our brain-mind for the purpose of utility as a social primate.
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detroitblkmale30
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08:26 AM on 10/22/2011
LOL My belief is that your opinion with all of its attempted disparagement is growing increasingly comical. Monkey god? LOL Ok whatever you say. There is a difference between Christianity and all of the other ancient and non-existent religons. They are non existent. We also dont have monkey gods..thank you for playing. Next. You are really obsessed with this ONE aspect of what God had to say so much so that you categorize him simply by that which of course is blatantly obtuse and ignorant.
You also clealry dont understand the various theological concepts that existed at different times within the Bible. Everything was for a reason, but everything is not applied to present day. Wrong again the more science reveals about mankind the mroe we see that for example we are "hardwired" for such a spiritual connection. Wonder who hard wired us? hmmmmm The notion that we consciencously invented God for no reason on our own isnt the case.
Again there is no point in us debating such issue at least not on a Christian level as you have no belief in it. I wonder why with all of your derisions that you even bother to follow your Jeffersonian "Jesus" Afterall if you are so reasonable enlightened you wouldn't "need" him at all.
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11:52 AM on 10/22/2011
It is not a question of "popular opinion". Just science which is far more objective than the minds of imaginative Homo Sapiens.
I am correct. However, I do believe that you believe in your subjective mind. Never said I didn't. You aren't reading with comprehension, unfortunately.
There is not any objective proof of gods. Thus far, that is. This is hardly a secret. It is known.
I left Christianity after decades and I do know about what it is. You have your god. There have been thousands upon thousands of gods in our human, Homo Sapien, history. All of them were true in a subjective imagined preceived world. I never doubted it. Yours, too.
Yes, your god is obsessed with sexual organs, sex, and other Homo Sapien biology and biological behavior. Uniquely so. This is because it is a projection of a Homo Sapien mind. The behavior is unique to a primate and a primate of our species. That is interesting enough in and of itself. You can't even recognize the mirror before you. Some religions like Buddhism do recognize this simplistic Homo Sapien mirror. Christians don't.
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detroitblkmale30
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09:36 PM on 10/22/2011
science is irrelevant in matters of theological context. This isnt about objectivity its about divine supernatural context which is beyond the context of science.
I am reading with clear comprehension you are not correct. You again, are welcome to your incorrect opinion. I never said there was proof of God, you state the obvious for someone reason.
So simply because there have been thousands of gods in human history thus the Christian God must be false?? That makes no sense. Its a subjective opinion. Nothing more. You cannot definitively say that the Christian God does not exist. That too is a fact. All you have to offer are musings about other unrelated gods that is irrelevant in this context.
No my God is NOT obsessed with sexual organs. lol That is merely the context of this discussion. Does theft or murder involve sexual organs? or any of the other non sex related admonitions in Christianity? You beat a dead horse. I see the mirror clearly you are blinded by your repetitious obession with the phrase "homo sapien" Cant you just say human being? Give it up already, its not working.
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ashiraladonai777
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02:41 PM on 10/23/2011
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree that science is "objective". To refute that comment, I need to point out that there have been w/in the last 2-4 yrs in the news examples of people who've "tinkered" w/ data on some very high-profile stories that were tendentiously written so as to promote a particular view of science so as to sway popular opinion in favor of said experimentation, but later on it was found that the research data had been falsified. I can agree that data can in fact be neutral if it's truly the object to follow where it leads, but in this case, the course had already been predetermined--dishonestly so.
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Lucy0808
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12:03 PM on 10/22/2011
Your post is in error: "..."hardwired" for such a spiritual connection. Wonder who hard wired us?". First, you misunderstand the science. Humans are social animals. Social primates and immensely so. Their minds are arranged to create perceptions of other humans. Our brains are "wired" to perceive and make simple constructs with utility that allow us to predict the behavior of other human beings in our group. This has been shown by neuroscience studies. The mapping of how this is done does exist. We perceive other humans through these perceived constructs. We don't really perceive them for what they are. Just a simple representation for utility purposes. Evolution was severe and our human social behavior had huge evolutionary advantage (food gathering, hunting, educating, taking care of babies and the ill), passing down information. The same mechanisms that are used to perceive the "other" and create and artificial construct are used for perception of self and self awareness.We don't really perceive ourselves, but only a simplified construct (which changes all the time) for utility purposes. It is the exact same wiring and not any special wiring. The same wiring is used to perceive and give purposed objectives to inanimate objects outside oneself (thunder, earthquakes, diseases, floods) and "feel" that these are caused by purpose driven entitites. Same exact wiring. Attributes from our most basic social wiring had the consequences of making objective driven inanimate objects be spirits of purpose even though they don't exist.
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detroitblkmale30
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09:38 PM on 10/22/2011
No I do not misunderstand the science. When scientists themselves who know far more than you or I suggest this hardwiring may indeed have spiritual ramifications it is not I, but you who are in error.
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Lucy0808
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10:11 PM on 10/22/2011
You absolutely misunderstand the science.
Your post is in error:“..I don't misunderstand the science... .”
The idea of spirt to your is one of gods that are separate from the human species and separate from a human being. It's false.The science only show the subjectivity of constructs created by human brain-minds. What this means is that we are social creatures. We create in our minds, the subjective construct of a perceived "other" human being or other creature and that construct is truncated but sufficient for utility to predict the behavior of "the other". We are social primate animals and this is our social behavior. It's not even fully representative, but only enough to be useful for perceived intention. The same exact brain-mind pathways and mapping are used by us for our sense of self. It is truncated and not fully representative. It isn't even representative as reality. It's only enough for utility. It changes constantly from the past with many versions. It is a subjective construct, a ventriloquist act to give a sense of the "other" or ourselves. The same machinery of the brain-mind is used for inanimate objects (thunder, floods, lightening, diseases, whatever) to give a subjective construct of purpose and behavior. Like a puppy without a body, we create a perceived subjective and totally imagined construct of a spirit that doesn't exist.The same machinery of the brain for all of it. The same mechanisms. You are lost in the machine.
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detroitblkmale30
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10:41 PM on 10/22/2011
NO, I do not. What it means, as said by the science is that our minds and brains are naturally inclined to either believe in or create the notion of God. This isnt social behavior. It is representative of not only our reality but the reality of the world and universe around us. Now religions may change and come and go based upon the time the people the beliefs etc, but that neither changes the scientific reality of our minds nor does it alter the possiblity that the Christian God does indeed exisit. You cannot say he does not definitively. You can only suppose he doesnt. The deeper question then is why do we have this hard wiring and where does it come from? Why arent we hardwired for only scientific or purely rational, within the bounds of nature thought? hmmmm Even you cannot answer that question. You are are lost in the machine of denial.
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10:55 PM on 10/22/2011
As I said, you don't understand the science of neurscience concerning the human brain-mind. I am absolutely correct that it is using the same machinery as that used for social perception of the "other". This is known in our field. It is the same machinery used for perception of "self" and creating a truncated version of self just like a truncated version of the "other" homo sapien. The difference is that we have more information about self. For gods/spirits or any disembodied and inanimate object, it is the same. we look for purpose driven constructs and make them up on the fly. Our minds do this naturally for the "other"humans, for ourselves, and for the inanimate things that go bump in the night of flash lightning or cause floods, etc.. It is based on the same brain-mind machinery of looking for those things that are objective driven and for utility's sake predicting the behavior of such. We are a social animal, the most social of all. Our survival depends on defining the other and predicting its behavior, and cooperating. Studies have been done that support this. New studies are being used from what has been learned to model on computers. It is all truncated constructs of the other, self, and disembodied bumpy things. None of it is real. Only enough information to be useful and predictive. Even the self construct changes over time and there are multiple ones.Buddhism describes this. Science describes it.
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Saijanai
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12:51 AM on 10/23/2011
I don't necessarily disagree with what you say, but I suspect it is more complicated than current research suggests.
All of the research you refer to has been done on abnormal, that is to say, non-enlightened, brains. The most commonly studied meditation practices these days yield radically different EEG patterns than TM and the "enlightenment" EEG signature of TM theory turns out to be the pure consciousness signature during TM superimposed on normal waking, dreaming and sleeping patterns.
TM theory predicts higher states, named in the Yoga Sutras as "god consciousness" and "unity consciousness," and says that they don't occur until after the first stage of enlightenment is manifest.
One can easily claim that one is seeing a god or gods, or that a person is "one with the universe," but TM theory says that the objective criteria for those claims is the ability to perform any and all of the sidhis, at will. There's no documented cases of anyone, TMing, or otherwise, who can float around the room, even for an instant, letalone "at will," so extrapolating what the physiological correlates of such exalted states would be like is premature, at best.
Of course, it may be that TM theory is wrong and that no-one has ever floated or ever will, etc., but still, I wouldn't presume that you know what "real" communion with God looks like, physiologically speaking.
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detroitblkmale30
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09:56 AM on 10/23/2011
As I said I do understand it and disagree with what you have said as does the other poster.Repeating it doesnt make me agree with you anymore. I don't agree with your take on it. You are in no position of course to say whether its real or not definitively as science hasnt arrived at that answer, its merely your biased opinion. Being a social animal still doesnt explain the "wired" leaning for God, only the leanings toward human to human contact. There are plenty of links I'd be happy to share with you for your further understanding.
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11:39 AM on 10/23/2011
Saijanai, your post "All of the research you refer to has been done on abnormal... brains." For the last 20yrs, neuroscience studies have made great progress in this regard, but it's early as science goes. However, it doesn't negate the studies done which have been poignant and informative. You are incorrect that all of the studies are on diseased or damaged individuals. I think you know this if your thought of it. Perception "intention" mapping has been routinely done on well people, and of course on ill people. Your post focused only on consciousness which is just one part of the problem. My post was about how subjective constructs of "perceived and objective driven others" is created by the human brain-mind. Certainly consciousness is how we become aware of these constructs. However, how the constructs are made and from what is important. For what purpose is important.That they are generally the same for mapping and creating constructs of "other human minds with perceived intentions" as well as one's own construct of self (with perceived intentions) is interesting and makes sense since the body reuses and adapts what exists and doesn't usually make brand new things. The same brain-mind machinery is used for mapping and creating constructs of a perceived intention (in this case false intentions)of inanimate objects or ethereal imagined ones.
Your Tm description is about something else. A different topic but certainly would be integrated in the subject matter. I see no conflict.
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Saijanai
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12:49 PM on 10/23/2011
"You are incorrect that all of the studies are on diseased or damaged individuals."
You missed my point. ALL research in neuroscience, by TM theory, has been done on less than healthy individuals. The TM definition of "normal" is "enlightened."
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02:46 PM on 10/23/2011
Mr Saiganai, your post misunderstands. You posted to my posts and entered the conversation on a topic. As I said, I have no argument with your post, but your post was off the topic I was posting on. My posts stand for the topic I was discussing. That is it. Yes, on the topics I was discussing there is a great amount of data using normal healthy subjects as well as studies based on those that have had trauma to their brain, have new diseases, or genetic disease(or suspected so), like autism.
I was talking about mapped constructs of the mind of others "as intentioned minds". Homo Sapiens are extremely social creatures with well developed language and also the ability to make in their minds representations of "others' mindsand intentions". This creates feelings of minds of others outside oneself for purposes of utility. The constructs are simple and made up. The same machinery maps "self" as a made up construct. This is hardly knew material and represents near 20 yrs of work. The same machinery mapps constructs of intentioned others that don't even exist, such as inanimate objects, spirits, ghosts, and Olympian gods. It is the same machinery. The constructs aren't for reasoning, but for a sense of "feeling". One feels someone is xxx. One feels a sense of self. One feels a sense of Athena next to one. It is the same machinery. I wasn't posting about Tm. You were.
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11:17 AM on 10/23/2011
You don't know the science. You don't know the neuroscience at all. Your post shows it. I spoke the truth. Yes, social perception mapping is the same machinations (in general) as perceptial mapping of self. It is supported scientifically, and makes sense how ideas and maps (constructs) are made. Awareness of other, is similar to awareness of self. The same machinations are used as a byproduct of mapping "other" that happen to be non-human. Other animals, of course. Other inanimate objects, giving them false intentionality in the perception maps. It is the same thing for spirits/ghosts/and the pantheon of gods. Tree spirits, river spirits, sky spirits, etc..
You are correct that the work is in the early phase for the last 20yrs. You are incorrect that the science doesn't support this. It does. There is a great deal of work that needs to be done.
Lay people that don't agree is simply about them not knowing the science (which most don't) and that they want to support their subjective belief system. I'm a scientists and I just want to see what the status of it is and how it progresses. Your are a religious person using out of context information (poorly understood and misinformed) to support your subjective constructs and premise. Why would I beieve that? It doesn't make any sense.
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detroitblkmale30
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02:13 PM on 10/23/2011
Again repeating your post doesnt make you any more correct. I do understand it. I can read. My post demonstrates that. You simply refuse to allow any other possibilities which dont correspond to your biased view.None of what you say explains why people are wired in this way. You have still failed to adequately explain this outside of merely stating its mapping based on social perception, which makes no sense in the context of supernatural conceptualizations. Tree spirits etc that you refer to and those notions are irrelevant. Wrong again it is properly informed and supported by scientific minds smarter than you or I. Further posting from your limited perspective will not convince me otherwise.
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02:39 PM on 10/23/2011
As I said, you are incorrect and don't know the science. I am talking about how information is mapped in our brains and how constructs are created in that process. Reality isn't mapped. It is a made up map for utility's sake. You aren't comprehending that and are caught up in something outside of the science. The brain which is an organ creates mind maps.I am talking about those that are created to represent the "other minds" separate from oneself. In otherwords, creatures outside oneself "as intentioned individual minds". How those are mapped is for social purpose and utility. The same mapping methods and areas of the brain, and the same process is used to map "self" as an intentioned individual. It is a mental construct for convinience and utility. It is a very simple construct and not that which is the wealth of information from the outside world or inside world. It is a simple model for convinience. The same brain-mind processes are used to map inanimate things. The mind looks for intentioned things outside of itself. This is routinely done. The process is used for incorrecly mapping intention onto inanimate things and spirits (thunder, lightening, whatever bumps in the night).
I am talking about the biology, neurobiology, mapping of information and the creation of constructs for "intentioned beings" ...those with mind, those thought to have mind, and those faked to have mind. It is the same general machinery of the brain and the brain-mind.
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detroitblkmale30
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09:09 PM on 10/23/2011
I get it. I dont agree. You arent convincing, to me or others who have disagreed with you on this subject. I agree with other scientists. God isnt mapped for social utility. That's not correct. Once again, no matter how many times you repeat the same thing it doesnt become more convincing. I think your take on this subject is wrong.
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Lucy0808
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09:42 PM on 10/23/2011
You missed the entire point of it all.
You missed the science.
You absolutely don't know anything about the science. You even mistate words and concepts. It shows you don't even have a rudimenary understanding of the topic. Your post is silly.
You didn't even read for comprehension my posts. You mistate them so off the mark it is quite odd.
The only other person that posted to my thread comments here was a person posting about Tm. Tm is a different subject and he just confused the topic.
You are mistaken.
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detroitblkmale30
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10:13 PM on 10/23/2011
NO I didnt. I understand the science. I dont agree with your perspective on it. I did read your post. You have repeated the same principles over and over again. It shows that you are stuck to you perspective on the science, which for the 100th time I believe is mistaken.
No I am not. Thanks for your opinion.
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Godislove7
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11:02 PM on 10/23/2011
Lucy I have read your posts and you do indeed offer the same principle over and over again. I agree with DBM30. Your "social mapping" approach fails to account for why these minds are mapped in this way. You fail to draw a distinction between what the mind "creates" and what has been created in the mind. At the end of the day the "science" is inconclusive. You may take issue with DBM' grasp or perspective on the science, but you cannot say that the mind is not wired that way as science itself is still inconclusive on it. It may be the case it may not be we don't know.
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Lucy0808
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01:04 AM on 10/24/2011
You are incorrect.
The understanding of the brain-mind mapping has changed over the last 20yrs. Yes, mapping "the perceived other mind" outside of oneself is the same machinery of the brain-mind.
It isn't an issue of gods. That is something you keep bringing up and that isn't about the science. You bring in religion and I state the science. You make up stuff, and I state the science.
Your posts are about religion and your belief system. It is very subjective by definition and by your posts.
Spend some time looking into the science of human brian-mind mapping of perceived other minds and the intentionality of those minds. By definition the mapping of "other minds" is mapping disembodied minds.
This will be getting into the popular press over the next two years and maybe then you'll listen. You don't follow the science for sure.
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detroitblkmale30
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09:57 AM on 10/24/2011
Wrong. Me bring in God is not making it about God, it is discussing the scientific suggestions that brains are wired for a belief in God, There is a difference. I didnt make that up. That isnt subjective at all. Its already in the popular press, at least what I am describing. You should spend some time looking into the science. Maybe you will listen. You dont follow THIS science for sure.
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Lucy0808
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01:16 AM on 10/24/2011
A good book for lay people that don't understand the science or science is the following: "God, Soul, Mind, Brain: A Neuroscientist's Reflections On the Spirit World" by Michael S. Graziano. It is made for lay people and is not very thick. It is written beautifully and clearly, and respectfully. Journal articles are not included, but the concepts are described with some examples and analogies to help explain the science as well as where things are going.
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detroitblkmale30
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10:01 AM on 10/24/2011
shortly I will provide you with a host of different soures that support what I have said. They will be a good read for you.
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detroitblkmale30
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01:46 PM on 10/24/2011
I suggest you try the following:
Hard-wired for God? The Faith Instinct How Religion Evolved and Why It Endures, Nicholas Wade. Its not very thick and explains the principles I have been discussing.
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Lucy0808
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01:27 AM on 10/24/2011
How do you perceive another human being's "mind"?
How do you perceive your own mind?
How do you perceive the "intentionality of a disembodied mind"?
All of these use the same brain-mind mechanisms.
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detroitblkmale30
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09:58 AM on 10/24/2011
That's fine, but none of those are relevant to the particular issues I have raised within the mind as its make up is concerned in the area of supernatual belief and connections. You keep raising tangential things.
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Lucy0808
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12:17 PM on 10/24/2011
What I posted was not a tangent to the issue of "mapping constructs of the "other mind" as well as one's own" with the "awareness of the mapped construct". This machinery is exactly the same. That is how evolution works. It coopts what already exists. It doesn't create a new mechanism out of nothing. It piggybacks on what exists, but may have new gene mutations or new promoter mutations, and likely big copy number additions(or deletions) of promoters.
This set of mechanism provide a "feeling" of another mind and a "feeling" of our own mind (both of which are feelings of the existence of the construct. You don't feel the reality). This operates and cycles routinely looking for "others with intentions". It is messy. Most feelings of mind outside oneself are for real minds that exist, but also other minds with intention are mapped onto things that are inanimate and provide the illusion of another mind and the feeling that that mind exists.
I provided a book reference is you look. It is one for lay people and people not familiar with the science and the concepts. It is a very well written book, concise and clear, and short. You may like to read it.
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detroitblkmale30
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01:49 PM on 10/24/2011
It is tangential. I didnt say it created something out of nothing. The notion is though that it already existed. . Feelings are merely a symptom, not a cause and irrelevant to the origins of this faith hard wiring.. There are distinctions between I provided you a book for reference as well with good reviews that explains much, but not all of my points, written by a non-religious, scientific mind.
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Lucy0808
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12:29 PM on 10/24/2011
Mr detrotimale30, I know the science. It is my profession, contrary to your posts.
I haven't denied that the human brain-mind feels things that are interpreted as spirits or whatever. In fact, I state that over and over again in my posts. That is what my posts are about. What I do say is that the same machinery is used for the profound function in the real world with other human beings, and the creation and recognition of a construct of the self-mind. It is the same machinery and hardly surprising considering how evolution works and how biology of systems work. It is the current cutting edge of science in this regard. That you don't know it is not an insult, it is just that you don't know it.
The justification is that we are profoundly "wired" (your word) for looking for "minds and their intentions" for utility purpose because it makes profound differences for survival. Everything goes with it and is linked for the recognition of mind/intentions/ and enough to predict behavior. The same machinery is used for creation of self constructs and recognizing intention. The same machinery is used to "capture unrelated things into an inanimate other" and feel intentions. That feeling is the subjective feeling of spirits or gods. It is the same machinery.
If you send me journal article reference, please send only those from good journals and peer accepted scientists.
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detroitblkmale30
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01:56 PM on 10/24/2011
Just because it is your profession, doesnt make you correct. There are millions of scientists out there. Many of them are often wrong. That is what you keep missing. I am not debating whether the human mind feels spirits. That YOU do not understand this cutting edge research is even more shocking consiering you are indeed a scientist as you keep saying. We repeatedly keep talking in circles. I understand your "same machinery" argument. We arent profoundly wired for religion because of social purposes. That wouldnt make much sense now would it. We can be inherently social without religion. Instead we are hard wired for religion or faith instinct in general and science is attempting to determine exactly why that is. Which is why you cannot say tht it isnt for a connection to supernatual God. Afterall that would be logical within the context of religion.
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Lucy0808
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05:36 PM on 10/24/2011
Hard-wired for God? The Faith Instinct How Religion Evolved and Why It Endures, Nicholas Wade.. Thank you for the reference. I actually have read it and it is a good book. However, it is not written on the neurobiology of the brain-mind. It is a book on a different, orthagonal approach to evolution and selection for certain relgiousity types of features. That is a different topic than what I posted endlessly about. I was posting about the physical/biological brain and the creation of mind and how it happens, how information of the "other minds" is important to our species, how constructs are mapped and how they provide a "feeling" of the other minds, a "feeling" of self, and a "feeling of intentions from inanimate objects". All use the same physical mechanism in the brain-mind.
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detroitblkmale30
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09:02 PM on 10/24/2011
Which is explains how we really arent even talking about the same things. I think we have exhausted this enough.
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Lucy0808
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04:58 PM on 10/25/2011
Nciholas Wade did not propose mechanisms in the brain-mind that were responsible for religiousity. He only discussed those attributes of religiousity that may have been helpful for man's survival in ancient times and how specific attributes ( behavioral features) that may have been selected for. The actual mechanisms of the chemistry, biology of a brain organ, and the neurobiology mechanisms were not part of the purpose of the book. This latter topic is one of the top exciting research areas today and necessary. Talking about evolution of language, culture, or religiousity without a mechanism is only a small part of the science.
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ashiraladonai777
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02:59 PM on 10/23/2011
I wonder if this applies at some of the coverage I've seen of some Pride Days where there is plenty to be seen of sexual organs. Hmmmmm...Things that make you go, "Hmmmm..."
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hank p wall
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06:16 PM on 10/20/2011
One cannot imagine St. Francis of Assisi talking about rights.
--Simone Weil
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Lucy0808
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11:50 PM on 10/20/2011
Just to be clear.
St. Francis of Assisi did not live in the United States of America. He worked within monarchies and totalitarian church governments. There is a difference.
In our country, we have a Constitution that supports civil rights, and not mixing a specific religious sect creed with government policies.
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felliott
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12:41 AM on 10/21/2011
As a cradle Catholic who was also born gay, I've taken a great deal of interest in how the Church has dealt with the question of the protection of rights of gay people. What I've heard is the claim that the Church isn't against gay people; rather, it's for protecting the special status of heterosexual relationships.
As a native of Louisiana, I find the Church's argument indistinguishable from claim made by modern white supremacist leaders that they do not hate blacks or Jews, but they are concerned with protecting the white race.
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Syllogizer
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06:06 PM on 10/20/2011
Inspiring? Really? Them? It was the most inspiring religious preacher of all time who warned us that the passion your heroes indulge in is "the most degrading of all the degrading passions". So the only 'inspiring' your heroes can do it what, exactly? Not holy inspiration, that is for sure.
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tygr49
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11:05 PM on 10/20/2011
Your pure, unadulterated bigotry is a source of great inspiration to some, I'm sure. Thankfully, your numbers are dwindling.
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Lucy0808
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11:51 PM on 10/20/2011
I agree. It is so interesting that one can make such statements with such flippant self-righteousness and bigotry.
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Willie12345
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09:25 AM on 10/21/2011
Well said.
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Scott Amundsen
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10:17 AM on 10/21/2011
"Inspiring? Really? Them? It was the most inspiring religious preacher of all time who warned us that the passion your heroes indulge in is "the most degrading of all the degrading passions". So the only 'inspiring' your heroes can do it what, exactly? Not holy inspiration, that is for sure."
To whom exactly are you referring when you say "the most inspiring religious preacher of all time?" Because as sure as I am sitting here, it was not Jesus who said that quote that you apparently attributed to Him. That quote is from the book of Proverbs, believed to have been written by Solomon.
As for Jesus, He never said WORD ONE about homosexuality. Nothing. Nada. And you cannot make the claim that He did without making a liar and a fool of yourself.
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Georgia1992
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05:42 PM on 10/21/2011
"As for Jesus, He never said WORD ONE about homosexuality. Nothing. Nada."
Fanned and Fav'd.
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ashiraladonai777
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03:23 PM on 10/23/2011
Perhaps not directly, but I digress on this point:
3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”
4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[b]? 6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”
7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”
8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.” (Matthew 19:3-9 NIV 1984)
Although the text applies to the topic of divorce, Jesus REAFFIRMED God's Biblical CREATION model for marriage: one husband to one wife. That is the way God designed it to be. That is the model man has destroyed on so many levels anymore.
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Raniee
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07:05 PM on 10/21/2011
If he'd said, you would be on their side?
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SKamath
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01:51 PM on 10/24/2011
Great question, and a pretty simple one that exposes the dogma of religion. Morality is based on bronze age authors' edicts. Not on evaluation of why is something moral or immoral.
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Varys
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04:54 PM on 10/20/2011
I, for one, am glad that there are religious leaders willing to oppose the Bible.
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GDWhiteman
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05:45 PM on 10/20/2011
Much of what you call opposing the Bible is more on the order of different understandings of the Bible that conflict with traditional doctrines.
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Varys
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06:00 PM on 10/20/2011
There are explicit passages of the Bible that state the punishment for homosexuality should be death. How do you "interpret" that in a positive light? I don't think you can.
To quote an influential person on this subject:
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." - Albert Einstein
I couldn't agree more.
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HarleyOpenRoad
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06:09 PM on 10/20/2011
Einstein was a scientist.
His opinion on religion means no more than anyone else.
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BornOKtheFirstTime
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01:14 PM on 10/21/2011
Exactly!
In the same way that the opinions of Paul and Jesus mean no more than those of anyone else.
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Syllogizer
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06:09 PM on 10/20/2011
Your agreement with him means nothing. For his words carry no weight. Even on topics where he was an expert, Einstein often allowed his obstinacy to get in the way of recognizing the truth, such as when he said "God does not play dice with the world".
Are you aware of the irony? One of the Founding Fathers of Quantum Mechanics denied the implications -- now universally accepted -- of his own work.
If he could be so in error in his own specialty, just think how far off he could be when he got outside it -- as he did in the words you love to quote.
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GDWhiteman
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06:09 PM on 10/20/2011
Offering Einstein as an authority is quite the red herring, but let's skip by that.
Given that you're apparently buying the traditional viewpoint of the scripture you mentioned, please allow me to offer another: the homosexual behavior condemned as punishable by stoning is homosexual rape - a common way for victors in warfare to force the vanquished to bow before them. This has 2 problems - it's clearly unloving and it amounts to the rapist putting himself in a "God" position relative to the loser of the battle. In an iron age, nomadic culture, does stoning not seem an appropriate punishment? And besides, almost anyone with a brain knows God didn't actually say that.
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Varys
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06:53 PM on 10/20/2011
Yeah, nice try, but your interpretation is simply not correct. No scholar worth his salt will support what you're trying to argue. It's just a bald-faced attempt to sanitize holy scripture.
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GDWhiteman
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07:32 PM on 10/20/2011
Au contraire - a good many peer-respected scholars come to the same conclusion. Sanitize? They still see stoning. With the sole "agenda" of academic integrity, they want the Bible to be understood rather than turned into a religion.
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Varys
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07:42 PM on 10/20/2011
I've never accused a believer of having a firm grasp of reality, and I'm not going to start now.
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Pale Writer
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02:02 AM on 10/21/2011
And exactly who are these "peer respected" scholars that support this Biblical exegesis you have set forth here? Still curious...
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GDWhiteman
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06:58 AM on 10/21/2011
Am I the only person in this discussion who can use a search engine? I've observed a pattern emerging with "orthodox" conservatives. Apparently they go to great lengths to keep their list of "acceptable" authorities short and favorable to them by discounting differing views in various ways. e.g. if they can imagine some agenda on the part of the scholar that differs with their own agenda, conservatives feel free to wave off the differing view as inconsequential. I'm not going to jump thru your hoop - it's too small. It won't take you two minutes on a major search engine to find a couple. Do what you will with that information.
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Pale Writer
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05:59 PM on 10/21/2011
GD - You appeal to authorities that you cannot name and then accuse me of having an "agenda" and "discounting differing views"? No so, my friend. I just expect that if you are going to make claims outside of the theological concensus, that you provide a source. A peer respected, credible source. Instead, you'd rather blame me for asking...ok, When you figure out who these scholars are, let me know...
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ashiraladonai777
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03:46 PM on 10/23/2011
In the case of Sodom & Gomorrah, there might be cause to believe in the idea of rape...but not as per Leviticus:
http://interlinearbible.org/leviticus/20-13.htm
If God didn't actually say any of these things -- either Himself or thru the prophets, why bother using the Bible as any authority figure? To me, that's just playing into the devil's hands.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 NIV 1984
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor%206:9-11&version=NIV1984
I like the past tense in this: "11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." We ALL have fallen short of God's mark.
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GDWhiteman
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04:14 PM on 10/23/2011
Homosexual rape in S&G was yet another example - not post conquering in warfare - just to let strangers in town know who's boss.
I don't adhere to any notion that the Bible is "God's Word". Some may grant it authority under their sect of Christianity. I use it at times in conjunction with meditation.
Mostly I tick off conservatives when I tell them that their focus on sin, sin, sin is a waste of time for all but the highly religious who have a problem admitting they're not perfect. I too have noticed the frequent use of past tense - yet another thing that irks conservatives when I call their attention to it.
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ashiraladonai777
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09:23 PM on 10/23/2011
Jesus acknowledged that sin was & remains real--& that it has eternal consequences. So you have a religion of your own design then that doesn't readily acknowledge sin, but somehow I don't doubt that were you a victim of a sin acknowledged as such in the Bible, you'd be the first to complain that someone had wronged you. It all boils down to "Loving God first" & then "Loving others as we love ourselves." If these were put into place first, the rest would follow...but human beings being what they are, sin all the time--& then try to deny its reality--or justify it.
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GDWhiteman
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02:42 PM on 10/24/2011
""but human beings being what they are, sin all the time--& then try to deny its reality--or justify it" - all I can add to that is, "or justify their accusations of others as a means of avoiding confronting their own"
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KDMac
It's called sarcasm, Genius. .
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10:30 AM on 10/21/2011
And there are scientists now who are saying his Theory of Relativity was wrong.
http://www.economist.com/node/21531006
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eric0063
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11:57 AM on 10/21/2011
Reading the Bible and understanding the Bible aren't necessarily the same thing. The whole law issue seems to be the greatest source of amusement for those who don't understand what it is. The law and it's punishment was for Israel. It encompassed 3 types of laws, moral, civil, and ceremonial.
Ceremonial laws were fulfilled by Jesus, that's why Christians aren't offering animal sacrifices. It's a finished work.
Civil laws existed for Israel as a nation to set them apart from other nations. Since Christians are not Israel, we are not subject to those laws (dietary restrictions, etc.)
Moral requirements, though codified in the law, existed both before and subsequent to the law. That's why murder was wrong from the beginning. That's why homosexuality is wrong today as it was then. These laws still apply to us in that the teach us right from wrong moral behavior. The penalty doesn't apply (which is really good news for all the disobedient children and their parents) but the standards remain.
With all due respect to Einstein, anyone who thinks that living a Christian life exemplifies weakness has never really tried to do it.
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HarleyOpenRoad
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06:11 PM on 10/20/2011
There are plenty of others.
Scientology, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, to name a few.
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TomMartin
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04:49 AM on 10/21/2011
Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses love the Bible, don't oppose it. So don't mix the Scientologist cult with the others.
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HarleyOpenRoad
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06:06 AM on 10/21/2011
If they truly loved the Bible, they wouldn't have invented their own version.
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TomMartin
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06:27 AM on 10/21/2011
We do not have any original manuscripts of the Bible, so people are free to decide what is inspired. The early copies differ from each other in many verses.
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HarleyOpenRoad
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10:45 AM on 10/21/2011
The NWT Bible has many changes that are not supported by any other translation teams, and the NWT was invented after the religion was established.
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Ioan Lightoller
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04:47 PM on 10/20/2011
eligion is not found in just one book. And if these people have found spirituality, which is superior to any one religion, so much the better.
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el sistema
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05:04 PM on 10/20/2011
Christians make the best ironies.
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el sistema
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572 Fans
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04:22 PM on 10/20/2011
Ted Haggard is not on the list. I think Ted really inspired all of us to see Christianity through a different lens. It's a joy to be able to sit back and marvel at his life, his values and how he views honesty and integrity.
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GDWhiteman
Christian mystic iconoclast .
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06:45 PM on 10/20/2011
I don't think this list was "those inspiring laughter"
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TomMartin
Freedom and equality. .
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04:52 AM on 10/21/2011
Ted Haggard is no longer a fundamentalist.
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GDWhiteman
Christian mystic iconoclast .
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06:41 AM on 10/21/2011
If so, good for him.
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