Friday, October 18, 2013
Homophobic comments from OJ's part 2
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detroitblkmale30
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10:24 AM on 10/21/2011
LOL
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voicebodycheck
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03:40 PM on 10/20/2011
Free love blinds the use of moral purpose.
Over zeal blinds good use of application of love.
God says don't sin, so HIS best advice is shoved away...
We say (PAUL'S QUOTE), "be content therewith what ever state".
Our quotes make us accept the unacceptable because if we don't
we pay the popularity poll and get ousted!
Morality to a sinner is a bad word and faith is just another
angle at what makes life impossible to the "UNBELIEVER
"...And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall
wax cold. Matt 24:12
What is faith then, in application it is to believe everything God says, and do it,
And if we don't then ask for forgiveness. THAT IS WHY THE CROSS AND DEATH OF CHRIST. He takes over what we humanly fail. Life is better when you don't weaken... they say!
MOREOVER?...And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called [the place] of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha: Jhn 19:18 Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst. Jhn 19:19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put [it] on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
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Bill J4321
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04:12 PM on 10/20/2011
Never jump into a pile of leaves with a wet sucker.
~ Book of Linus, KING OF THE PEANUTS.
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el sistema
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04:27 PM on 10/20/2011
I think it's better to put down the books of prejudice and open yourself up to humanity instead.
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iknowscottyknows
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06:31 PM on 10/20/2011
Humanity has no hate, prejudice, bigotry, murder?
How can you overlook the actions of the non-religious?
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el sistema
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08:51 PM on 10/20/2011
The non-religious aren't necessarily using books that promote divisiveness and intolerance.
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Valksy
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04:45 PM on 10/20/2011
Just more christo-babble.
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voicebodycheck
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04:31 PM on 11/09/2011
if you run from your own sexual misbehaviour, looking for the Saviour, you will get his help.
but if you ask a human being for peaunut butter and bread they will say you gone crazy and
you ought to join some subversive group to get your point across.
Jesus Salvation is like no other.
and most people can't stand that if they serve subversive groups they attack a belief in him and to them that is a good thing even for debate.
personally if a person is hungry, i don't ask their religion or if they have confessed first!
MISSIONARY
CLAUDIA HUMPHREY
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raker
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02:35 PM on 10/20/2011
What makes Manji a religious leader? According to her web site her mission is about moral leadership, not religion. A religious leader be someone who's primary occupation is the religion biz, no?
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Coloradem
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03:18 PM on 10/20/2011
Have you read her most recent book? She is a definite leader in reforming Islam.
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Richard McRae
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02:23 PM on 10/20/2011
The LGBT that succumb to religion confuse me almost as much as those that are Republicans.
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22Keys
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03:09 PM on 10/20/2011
When one has a homophobic family member it usually does not mean that you stop associating with them. You love them despite their fault (which through much conversation you hope to eliminate).
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Richard McRae
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03:22 PM on 10/20/2011
Well when someone has an entire family with a long history of homophobia, it's generally acceptable to distance yourself from them.
The religious and the GOP (who are usually one and the same) more than any other party works to limit or eliminate completely the rights and privileges of anyone who doesn't believe like they do. Women, then blacks, then the LGBT community, then atheists (with a TON of other groups scattered between) have consistently had to fight for equal rights and representation from the religious and/or Republicans.
Religious republican conservatives are the biggest threat to human rights in the US.
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03:40 PM on 10/20/2011
Religion is a fundamental human phenomenon. There is nothing intrinsically evil, homophobic, violent, racist, sexist, etc. about it. While some ugly manifestations of faith have certainly presented themselves throughout history, these bigoted ideas exist apart from religion. Having been raised in S. California, I had the pleasure of witnessing many secular people who fit all of the above categories as well. Let's not paint with too broad a brush here, and let's not turn this into a GOP vs. Dem thing.
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Richard McRae
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03:48 PM on 10/20/2011
If you honestly think that christianity is not intrinsically or inherently homophobic, racist, or sexist then you have never studied christianity.
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22Keys
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04:17 PM on 10/20/2011
Do I really need to give a lecture about reading ancient texts in context? Christian origins was a key focus of my undergraduate study at U.C.L.A. If you would like, I would be more than willing to correspond further about these topics. However, I think it is important to remember that a lot of people have a spiritual drive, and instead of telling them to suppress that drive, we should make sure we do our housecleaning with the religions available to us (eliminating: racism, homophobia, sexism, etc).
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Richard McRae
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04:24 PM on 10/20/2011
I also studied the bible EXTENSIVELY while studying for the seminary. We can play all the word games we want, but for the last few thousand years the christian religion (to name one) has had as part of its canon racism, sexism, and homophobia. Let's not even get into islam or any of the other Abrahamic religions.
I'm not talking about people repressing their spirituality. I'm just always shocked at people who want to join an organization that has made an active point of repressing or harming them. I'd be just as amazed at a black man that wanted to join the KKK.
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22Keys
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04:42 PM on 10/20/2011
Many organizations that started out as bigoted, no longer are. Should I avoid watching the MLB because at one time they excluded blacks? No they have corrected their behavior. love the United States and I believe it to be a beautiful country. That does not mean that I am not ashamed of the sexism, racism, slavery, and all other manner of injustices that were sanctioned by the state at some time or another. I am not ignoring or attempting to forget the struggles of those before me. That does not mean we should throw the baby out with the bath water. Let's not ignore some of the more positive things the church seems to be doing (like pentecostalism in Latin America crushing sexist machismo). I think that we should move forward and be proud of what we are slowly becoming, a more tolerant society. I think we should welcome the church changing their ways. In 100 years there will not be hardly a church left that preaches against homosexuality.
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Richard McRae
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05:13 PM on 10/20/2011
I agree, and you're right that in 100 years people will look on the homophobes of our generation in the same way we look on the racists of 100 years ago.
But I'm STILL amazed that anyone would want to be a part of a group that hates them so much.
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Syllogizer
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06:18 PM on 10/20/2011
I don't believe you when you claim this extensive study. No one should believe you. Why? Because if you had really STUDIED it, you would have known better than to make the rash generalization you made. But you made it anyway. This proves beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt that what you did and called 'study' was no such thing.
How did you miss it? The same Bible that some interpreted as endorsing slavery inspired many to fight slavery, even to the extreme that John Brown went to. Do you really expect us to believe that your "extensive study" proved that the former were correct and the latter wrong?
Don't expect it, because we won't.
Then there is the way you completely missed what it was that REALLY pushed slavery over the edge and out of the civilized, modern social order: it was economic change. It no longer makes economic sense to rely on slavery for our labor supply, the (relatively) free labor market does MUCH better.
Did you really not know at all? The reason so many poor whites in the Northern States supported the war was NOT love of the downtrodden slaves, it was the economic fact that the mere existence of slavery was depressing their wages. The South was desperate to export their "peculiar institution" to every territory, because it was strangling their economy at home; but the export strangled the labor market for free men, which is why they fought back.
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07:59 PM on 10/20/2011
I'm sure it's very comfortable for you to believe that. But I studied the bible with the heart and spirit of someone who was in love with god, in love with the church, and in love with the bible. I studied it with the love of someone who wanted nothing more than to learn everything there was to learn about it so that I could share it with others.
It was through years and years of deep, intense study of not just the bible but of tons of supporting material that I started to realize just how horrible of a book it is. I realized that I believed in a loving, caring god - and that the god of the bible was nothing of the sort.
To quote Twain, it ain't the parts of the bible I don't understand that disturb me. It's the parts that I do.
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Coloradem
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03:20 PM on 10/20/2011
We shouldn't. Those of us who are religious (in my case, Christian), simply refuse to deny that part of ourselves that is spiritual simply because others want us to.
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Richard McRae
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03:29 PM on 10/20/2011
It's not about denying the spiritual side of you. I'm amazed that any member of the LGBT community would associate themselves with the two most homophobic groups in America, both of which have (and still do) actively work to limit or eliminate the rights of the LGBT community.
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Coloradem
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03:36 PM on 10/20/2011
What groups are those? The Christian church that I currently belong to actually advocates quite strongly for full inclusion of LGBT people in all aspects of society.
The bottom line is this, I'm not willing to allow fallable human beings to deny me a relationship with Christ---a relationship that I believe we both (Christ and I) want. I think to do so is quite stupid.
When did you relinquish your right to determine your faith to others? Do you do that with all aspect of your life or just this one?
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Richard McRae
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03:40 PM on 10/20/2011
That's good for your church, but it is FAR from the norm. If your church allows gay marriage, fights for gay rights, accepts that homosexuality is not a sin, and is comfortable with things like transgenderism, etc then great.
But you'd have to be willingly blind to not see that the church and the Republican party is CONSTANTLY at the forefront of any anti-LGBT movement. It's good your church is an exception - but it's still an exception.
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Coloradem
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05:33 PM on 10/20/2011
I don't disagree with you that my church is far from the norm within Christiandom (and, incidentally, they do all of the above).
Having said that, I still think that if one permits another person to dictate the terms of their relationship with their creator, they are making a huge mistake.
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GDWhiteman
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05:50 PM on 10/20/2011
Change for the better often starts with being exceptional. Why Coloradem would choose to stay with something exceptionally good seems like a no-brainer to me. It's the hope (and wave) of the future.
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dmgoss
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03:48 PM on 10/20/2011
While I agree, I think it's more a case of institutional affiliation, rather than basic spirituality, which leads one to ask whether a church or social group that gathers around religious beliefs is actually necessary for anything other than instruction or community? Obviously, one's beliefs grow and become more nuanced from contact with like minded others, but if the members of that group hate you for an essential part of your person, why stay? Or continue to subscribe to the dogma that is likely the source of that hate?
I'm not a religious person, but I am a social one, and I understand the need for common cause and contact. But I also understand the cruelty and rejection any group is capable of. In this case, Martin Luther's ultimate goal of removing the church and its representatives as the necessary administrators of God's will has the feature of allowing the individual to pursue a relationship with their spirituality through a solitary reading of the bible.
Of course, Weber's response, that churches ultimately serve as communal entities that bind neighbors into a group identity necessary to social harmony, seems to trump the idea that mere belief is even the main issue when it comes to the power churches have over a population. Check how well Muslims are currently mainstreaming into American society for a great example of this.
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Coloradem
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03:58 PM on 10/20/2011
I see what you are saying and, to an extent, agree with you. I would certainly not stay with any group of people who hated me (or anyone else, for that matter) given that the Christ I follow instructs us to, "Love your neighbor as yourself". Hate is contrary to his command.
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Richard McRae
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05:47 PM on 10/20/2011
"Having said that, I still think that if one permits another person to dictate the terms of their relationship with their creator, they are making a huge mistake.”"
I agree 100%. Which is why I'm always so amazed when anyone from the LGBT succumbs to religion or Republicanism.
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Coloradem
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06:36 PM on 10/20/2011
You lost me. If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that LGBT people should not engage in any religion because some within religious communites claim that God/Allah/S-he who we call by many names doesn't like them. In other words, we should listen to those people (and those within the LGBT community who tell us that we don't need to engage in religious activities) and accept that we are not worthy of God's love?
You really shouldn't be surprised (or amazed) by the diversity or independent mindedness of those of us who are gay.
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Richard McRae
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08:02 PM on 10/20/2011
You keep saying that I've said the LGBT community SHOULDN'T be part of religion or a religious group. I've never said that. I've said that I'm SURPRISED they are. I don't think blacks shouldn't join the KKK. I'd just be surprised at the ones who wanted to.
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Coloradem
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10:21 AM on 10/21/2011
So now you're equating Methodist, members of the the United Church of Christ, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, etc.with the KKK? Well, given that those who killed Matthew Shepard were American, why would any gay person stay in America?
The bottom line is this: You have chosen to replace one bigotry (against gay people) with another (against religious people). Well, pick your poison, I guess.
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Richard McRae
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11:37 AM on 10/21/2011
But I'll tell you what - I'll continue supporting the LGBT community against unfair legislation and religious persecution.
You keep defending the church.
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Coloradem
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12:41 PM on 10/21/2011
I'll defend both against real enemies instead of looking for enemies where they don't exist.
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Richard McRae
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12:51 PM on 10/21/2011
Considering the great lengths you've gone through to make me an 'enemy' in this thread, I find that that statement incredibly ironic.
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Richard McRae
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12:58 PM on 10/21/2011
Also, if you think the church hasn't been an enemy of the LGBT community you definitely need to educate yourself both on LGBT history and the bible. To deny it is like saying that the South was never an enemy of black people.
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Coloradem
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01:29 PM on 10/21/2011
Actually saying "the South" was an enemy to black people is exactly as stupid as saying "the Church" is the enemy of gay people.
Black people were a part of the south, so your statement implies that black people were enemies of themselves. Were there elements of "the South" that treated black people horribly? Of course. Are there element of "the Church" that treat gays and lesbians horribly? Of course. "The South" is not a monolith though and neither is "the Church" and that is the fallacy of your argument.
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Richard McRae
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02:22 PM on 10/21/2011
Okay, I see where the issue is. You're having trouble grasping concepts if the details aren't nitpicked. You're not understanding a concept because we're not throwing out specific names, scenarios, and situations. So since you're just not getting it, I'll explain a little deeper:
Christianity (as one example) has consistently and repeatedly demonized and criminalized homosexuality. Even in today's current news if you look at any anti-LGBT legislation within the US you'll find it's virtually 100% of time either headed, funded, or supported by religious organizations. Sometimes they're christian. Sometimes they're not. What they all have in common is that they are RELIGIOUS-BASED and their objections are that homosexuality is immoral or unequal because of their RELIGIOUS BELIEFS.
Your church is an exception. WONDERFUL. But at the head of everything that eliminates or limits LGBT equality in this nation is one religious organization or another.
That's fine if you disagree. It's great that the members of the LGBT community who have been subjected to religious discrimination get to be told how wrong they are by their fellow LGBT members.
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Coloradem
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02:52 PM on 10/21/2011
No I really don't think you see where the issue is at all. The issue is simply this: You are attempting to apply blanket condemnations to people of faith based on the the worst actions by some members of the faith community. This is not unlike those bigotted members of the faith communities who attempt to categorize all members of the LGBT community based on the actions of "go-go boys dancing on floats at gay pride parades".
While it may be much simpler in the short run to try to live life sticking labels on people and them placing them into little boxes while coding them "good" or "bad", you are doing yourself and the LGBT community an extreme disservice in doing so.
Remember, Martin Luther King was a devout Christian and it was his faith that led him to do the great things that he did, yet in your little "box" you would put him in the "bad" category.
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04:01 PM on 10/21/2011
I'm not attempting to box anyone into a specific category. I'm also not basing my opinion on religion by the actions of only its worst members. I'm simply showing how things ARE, not how I THINK they are. I didn't decide to go on some vendetta against the church and blame them for all the evils in the world. What I did was notice a continuing and common trend in anti-LGBT movements.
Look at things like DADT, DOMA, the fight against marriage equality, the political arguments against equality for the LGBT community, etc, etc, etc, etc. This is historic, this is researchable, this is easy to prove if you just go do your homework.
Are you honestly telling me that in the fight for gay rights you're NOT fighting against religious bigotry? That you're NOT fighting against christian ideals? That you're NOT confronted with religious groups that use their religion as justification to limit rights for the LGBT community?
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Coloradem
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05:00 PM on 10/21/2011
I'm telling you that I am fighting against anti-gay bigotry, no matter the source...tradition, religion, misogeny and the "ick" factor to name a few. I am also fighting anti-Christian bigotry, no matter the source. I am not fighting Christian ideals at all....on the contrary, Chistian ideals were set by Christ very clearly in Mark: "Love your neighbor as yourself"....no exceptions....that is the ideal that I am fighting for.
As to DADT, DOMA, ENDA and the rest of the alphabet soup of gay rights (and discrimination) laws, I've been on the front line of these battles for the better part of the past 40 years and the opposition has had a strong base in the faith community. There are a significant number of religious leaders and people in the pews who are fighting on the other side of the issue as well. For every Pat Robertson there is a Rob Bell; for every Jerry Falwell there is a Mel White.
This isn't and either/or issue. It isn't one when Fred Phelps declares it so and it isn't one when you declare it so. And those of us who are Christian didn't "succumb" homosexuality any more than those of us who are gay "succumbed" to religion.
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Richard McRae
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05:22 PM on 10/21/2011
I agree that there are religious members fighting for LGBT rights. But those are new, they're the exception, and they're having to fight against their fellow religious members.
It's a good thing it's happening. It's a good thing the church is opening up. It's a good thing they're finally becoming accepting of homosexuality. But the very fact that it IS a fight and that they ARE the minority means that religion is still more anti-homosexuality than pro-homosexuality.
I never said you were fighting christian ideals. Most christians don't follow christian ideals. I said you were fighting religion. Big huge difference. One of homosexuality's biggest hurdle is gaining universal acceptance in the religious community. Just look at countries that have very low religious populations and you can see the inverse relationship of religion and acceptance of homosexuality.
Yes of COURSE there are examples of people and churches fighting for gay rights. There always has been and there always will be people who can see past the bigotry. But if you can't use a few bad examples as an indication of the whole, you can't use a few good ones either.
Most religions have always fought against LGBT rights. The Abrahamic religions most notably. You can't in all honesty say that religion as a whole is supportive of the LGBT community and LGBT rights.
Well you can say it I suppose - you can even try to convince others of it, but then you'd have to change your name to Colorarepub.
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el sistema
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04:00 PM on 10/20/2011
Superstition isn't prejudice.
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Richard McRae
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04:04 PM on 10/20/2011
But the superstitious and religious usually are. And christianity as a whole is one of the most homophobic groups in the US. Religion as a whole is one of the most homophobic in the world.
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04:16 PM on 10/20/2011
They also have the most sects. So many denominations within Christianity I am sure they could find one or two sects they'd enjoy.
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Syllogizer
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06:19 PM on 10/20/2011
You are showing the really deep prejudice yourself when you claim " the superstitious and religious usually are [prejudiced?]".
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Richard McRae
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08:00 PM on 10/20/2011
Nah, I'm speaking from countless examples and experience throughout history. If you look at every anti-LGBT movement or legislation it is invariable fronted by a religious group.
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felliott
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12:47 AM on 10/21/2011
Superstition is prejudice compounded with cowardice and stupidity.
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Coloradem
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10:24 AM on 10/21/2011
Actually prejudice, be it against gay people or religous people, is cowardice coupled with stupidity.
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felliott
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11:49 AM on 10/21/2011
Is all religion superstition?
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Coloradem
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12:39 PM on 10/21/2011
Depends on who you ask. So in the most broad sense, yes, every religion is considered supersitition by some people.
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eric0063
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02:22 PM on 10/20/2011
But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3)
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Grada3784
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03:32 PM on 10/20/2011
For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness,
This is something new? Seems like the last days Timothy was talking about have been forever.
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04:14 PM on 10/20/2011
Next time you talk to him, can you ask him to push up the rapture date so I can finally get some peace and quiet down here.
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eric0063
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04:38 PM on 10/20/2011
Well, according to the prophecies, it'll probably get noisier, not quieter, after that event. How bout a nice set of ear plugs?
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eddy joe
welcome to the machine .
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04:38 PM on 10/20/2011
Nice post. It's good to see the truth .
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Varys
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05:06 PM on 10/20/2011
So, men will behave exactly the same during the "last days" as they have for the last few thousand years?
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GDWhiteman
Christian mystic iconoclast .
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06:01 PM on 10/20/2011
"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness" - A) that isn't God talking, it's whoever forged 2 Tim under Paul's name B) I don't see anything suggesting limitation to a canon selected by one faction or any time frame for the scripture to have been written. And frankly, I see many of those predicted things happening right now chiefly among the most loudest Bible thumpers.
Using scripture to infer (false) accusations of others before someone points a finger at the accuser is one of the oldest and sleaziest rhetorical tools of the religions "orthodox". What a pity more folks aren't able to see thru that scam.
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Syllogizer
Barely Left of Pobedonostsev .
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06:21 PM on 10/20/2011
It isn't always a scam. That is why people don't "see thru" what you THINK you see through.
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GDWhiteman
Christian mystic iconoclast .
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06:30 PM on 10/20/2011
No, not always - but far more often than not.
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eric0063
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06:40 PM on 10/20/2011
What accusation was there? I simply quoted a few verses from 2 Timothy.
What amazes me, however, is that so many people believe in a 'god' who could not get us his word if he chose to. A god who has no standards of right and wrong higher than what we think is right and wrong. A god who would never want us wise humans to go against our self willed nature. A god who thinks that our personal earthly happiness is the ultimate goal of creation. A god who speaks only to people's hearts without offering any standards for verification. A god who would have no need of purity or personal accountability.
You may choose to deny the God of the Bible, you can say you believe in Jesus and that He is part of your life, but these don't mix. Jesus believes in the OT scriptures, said it was those scriptures that are written of Him. Jesus doesn't stand apart from the law, He established the law, then asks "why do you call me Lord Lord and don't do what I say?"
Paul writes in Romans 3: "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin... Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law."
(yes, the law is referring to the OT scriptures, wherein all moral laws are codified)
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GDWhiteman
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07:29 PM on 10/20/2011
"Jesus believes in the OT scriptures" - except, of course, where he directly contradicts them.
Who knows what the thorn in Paul's side was? All we can tell for certain is that he struggled mightily with what he believed was sins of the flesh. Pretty arrogant of him to make the assumption that everyone's like him. But then "projection" is a well established principle of human psychology when dealing with people we know little or nothing about.
I have little doubt that those laws against harming others clearly violate loving your neighbor as yourself. However, when it comes to various holiness codes established for a nomadic Iron Age tribal society, I seriously doubt that God gives a hoot one way or the other about much of OT law. I think overboard assumptions are made when it comes to what law Jesus is talking about.
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GDWhiteman
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07:30 PM on 10/20/2011
"Deny the God of the Bible"? Which one? i.e. Which interpretation? With or without a hermeneutic system designed to affirm one flavor of Christianity as "orthodox"? Need I go on? Many choices. Yours is THE correct one? Says who? Don't tell me "the Bible". Others read the same words and come to vastly different conclusions.
If you feel convicted of sin, do what you must. Those among us who long ago confessed, know we're forgiven, and have moved on to life really don't need you pointing fingers. What WAS that scripture??? Oh, yeah - "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone". Another scripture where people miss the point (even though it was inserted later - another interesting edit of "God's Word") - everybody gets that they're not supposed to throw stones. What almost everyone misses is that the guy who everyone agrees is qualified to throw stones does not. No statement of belief required. No punishment. Just "Go and sin no more". God's justice is restorative, not punitive.
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eric0063
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07:50 PM on 10/20/2011
I will give you credit for your firmness of belief. A lot of people don't know why they believe what they believe. I don't see you as one of those.
Clearly we have huge difference in our views of the Bible. Perhaps in time I will come to understand yours better, and perhaps you mine. I am not idle in my study of both the new or old testaments, and the deeper I dig the more convinced I am of it's authenticity and application to us today. I am certainly flawed in many ways of how I understand it, but for me the authorship is always strengthened the deeper I get.
God's justice is not restorative. His grace and mercy, absolutely. But God's justice can be a fearsome and terrible thing. It is God's justice that sent Jesus to the cross in our stead (I think that is one thing we agree on). Under God's justice we all would stand condemned. His mercy and grace are what draw us to Him, that instills in us a longing to please Him.
Regarding the casting the first stone event, if you study it closely, Jesus knew it was a trap. They completely violated the rules of the TORH in even bringing her to Jesus. First, where was the man? Second, according the the TORH they had to present 2 witnesses (who were not present). Everything about the event was meant to trap Jesus, he was judging their hypocrisy, not the law.
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GDWhiteman
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08:12 PM on 10/20/2011
It sounds like the notion of restorative justice seems like an oxymoron or paradox to you. You might chew on that a little - like until you see that it only seems paradoxical until your perspective aligns with God.
We agree that God sent Jesus to the cross. Where we disagree is between "in our stead" and "on our behalf". (that's a punitive perspective vs restorative)
Yes, the stone thing - he knew it was a trap - and handled it well. But it escapes almost everyone's notice how Jesus acts after all the others are gone. The law says she should be stoned. He's without sin. Jesus fulfills the law without needing punishment.
Grace: a personal story - I was in a study group with some folks who know my personal history. The workbook for the study asked, "Do you think God's grace is a powerful force? Why?" A couple of folks gave nice, doctrine-correct Christian answers. Then it was my turn. My reply: "Yes. It changed me." Given the groups knowledge of the old me and the new man, that discussion was over. It was as clear to them as it is to me that God's grace is an awesome force indeed.
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GDWhiteman
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08:21 PM on 10/20/2011
I attended a men's breakfast at another church this morning. The guest speaker was Michael Franzese - a former mafia boss from a cosa nostra family. He has an awesome testimony of God's restoration - a very real, raw description of an actual relationship with Christ as a follower. I don't know that he mentioned "belief" much at all and pretty much said to the attendees, "What denomination you are doesn't matter in what we're talking about here." Following and relationship vs belief and religion. Many of the men there are religious. Most if not all would call themselves "believer". It was clear that his story spoke to them. He's living what they claim we desire as Christians. He was a very sinful man, and he's not shy about it. He admits that he's still not perfect, but he's focused on God's will instead of sin. A lot of men in that room would love to trade places with him. I enjoyed it because I am him. Not NY mafia, but my story is very similar in many ways - down to and including the woman he married as my wife is for me. It was like watching myself talk to men who need to learn to admit their sins, accept forgiveness, and plunge into willingness to be transformed.
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GDWhiteman
Christian mystic iconoclast .
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08:43 PM on 10/20/2011
This whole thing - it's not about our failures. It's about God's success. Where we've been... it is what it is - first and foremost, not changeable. Confess, receive forgiveness (you'll know you've received it when you quit asking for it over the same old things again and again), and embrace life - abundant life. We're called human beings for a reason - note: we are not "human doings". BE a word holding your truth. Not how do you behave or what you say. Who are you? (when you don't think anyone is watching).
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GDWhiteman
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09:45 PM on 10/20/2011
Does it make any sense to you that allowing transformation to that the desire of your heart aligns with God is all the repudiation of your sin the God requires? When you have let go of your love of a sin and taken God's loving view of him and others, what could be stronger than that? I'm not talking about outward behavior here - I'm talking about the essence of who you are - what you truly desire in your heart of hearts without coercion.
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eric0063
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12:39 PM on 10/21/2011
Search out the word "justice" and in most cases (in both the OT & NT) it implies judgement or vengeance. It can also mean what is right. Jesus set the bar for being right pretty high: looking at a woman with lust is the same as adultery; love your enemies and do good to them; merely calling someone a fool it tantamount to murder. Who can meet those standards? And you want justice?
You mention letting go of our love of sin and aligning our desire of our hearts with God's. That requires a measurement of what sin is, of what God desires. Feelings can not be the measure, for our old nature is always at war with our new nature. Jeremiah 17:9 says The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?" There must be a firm standard for comparison.
Everyone believes in something, so we're all believers. But in what do we believe? It is about relationship, but faith also. Belief is an intellectual ascent something is true, faith is the operative trust in that truth. What do you put your faith in is the real issue.
One last note: When Jesus said he did not judge the woman caught in adultery, what else did he say? "Go and sin no more." Did he really expect her never to fall short again? Or was it a call out of what she wanted into what God desires for us?
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CMR64
u hurt my feeling .
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05:58 AM on 10/21/2011
the whole problem with the above passage is the last sentence...so you are in favor of the death penalty for gays?
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eric0063
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11:41 AM on 10/21/2011
CMR64... short answer is no.
Longer answer is that since we are not under the law, the penalty of the law is not in force. Does that mean the law against homosexuality is abolished? Or coveting? Or lying? Or stealing? No, the law is there for us today to enable us to illuminate our sin nature, to enable us to discern right from wrong. Or as the last sentence in the passage, it is there for us today to teach us and correct our wrong ways of thinking.
I am not homophobic, I don't hate homosexuals. Their sin is no worse than my sin. The question is, do we embrace and empower our sin nature? Or do we see it for what it is and strive to live a life that is honoring to God, rather than honoring ourselves and our desires?
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CMR64
u hurt my feeling .
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05:43 AM on 10/25/2011
I am sorry if you subscribe to the belief that homosexuality is a sin and ALL SCRIPTURE is useful to correct and reproof paraphrasing Paul...then you believe that homosexuals are to be stoned. That slaves are to be owned and women should keep their place.
I embrace my sexuality simply because I love God ..I would never ever tell Him that He was wrong in making me ...
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eric0063
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11:06 AM on 10/25/2011
You miss the point. The Bible says all scripture is useful for correction and reproof. If you believe the Bible that's a very simple straightforward statement. It also says we are not judged (under the penalty) of the law. Good thing too, imagine if we stoned every disobedient child... population control would cease to be an issue.
Christians are not 'under' the law, but the law still exists to illuminate sin. Here is where many say it's a sin to eat shrimp and wear polyester. Wrong, civil and ceremonial laws were for Judaism. Moral laws were not abolished. The penalty under Judaism is absolved, but not the laws themselves.
God is not wrong in making any person. But every person is born with a sin nature. Just because we feel something is right, using the argument that this is how God made me can be used to justify any action.
My 'sexuality' compels me to be an adulterer... no better, no worse, than homosexuality. Because I'm made this way, does that make it right?
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CMR64
u hurt my feeling .
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05:45 PM on 10/25/2011
you can't have it both ways....either you believe what the Bible says ALL scripture or don't ...you are guiltily of picking and choosing as much as homosexuals ....I was born gay you cannot dispute what I experienced based on your presumptions. The issue is the same as it was with slavery ...period...
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Willie12345
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09:28 AM on 10/21/2011
Well said.
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buddha65
The night is my companion and solitude my guide .
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12:44 PM on 10/24/2011
What about us women?
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eric0063
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01:43 PM on 10/24/2011
Being a man myself, I think I gotta admit that women are exempt from much of the male gender's inherent foolishness. But in the context of the above I think it's referring to 'mankind', or in the current vernacular 'humankind'.
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Gay Iberian
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02:10 PM on 10/20/2011
None of the LGBT religious leaders are inspiring . Religion is not an inspiring organization, but rather a dangerous organization with false beliefs and false gods and fraught with corruption, sexual abuses and moral and intellectual oppression.
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iknowscottyknows
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02:34 PM on 10/20/2011
I think you're confusing "Religion" with the DNC.
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el sistema
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04:07 PM on 10/20/2011
The majority of evangelical fundamentalists identify themselves as republicans.
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Syllogizer
Barely Left of Pobedonostsev .
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06:22 PM on 10/20/2011
True. But that is not just because of a natural affinity between them, but because the Democrats have gone out of their way to alienate LOTS of Christians, not just "evangelical fundamentalists" with their endorsement of abortion and "gay marriage".
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AdamWest1313
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08:32 PM on 10/20/2011
There are more Christian Democrats then there are Atheist democrats.
Nice try though.
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Coloradem
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03:13 PM on 10/20/2011
The brush you are painting with is a bit broad. Religion is not a single organization. You should not judge all "religions" based on your personal experience any more than you would judge all caucasian people based on your experience with one caucasian person.
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felliott
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12:52 AM on 10/21/2011
Religions aren't people. They're ideologies. Moreover, religion is not like race since religion is unquestionably a choice and certainly is mutable. Therefore, religious rights should not be subject to the same scrutiny as rights based on immutable characteristics.
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Coloradem
Christian, Gay, Democrat .
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10:11 AM on 10/21/2011
Perhaps caucasian wasn't the best example. Let's try this: You shouldn't judge all police officers based on an experience you have with one police officer.
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Inspiring LGBT Religious Leaders
By Paul Brandeis Raushenbush Posted: 10/20/2011 1:45 pm EDT | Updated: 09/04/2013 12:21 pm EDT
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Reflecting and shaping the culture in which it is embedded, religion has historically been hostile to LGBT-identified people and communities. However, over the last three decades more denominations, congregations and individuals have come out in support of honoring the full humanity of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered people. Today, hundreds, if not thousands, of religious communities are truly places of celebration, healing and hope for all people.
This initial list of 15 ground breaking individuals is just a sampling of the many LGBT religious leaders who have reclaimed religious traditions and communities. We hope that you will use the feature on this slideshow to add gay religious leaders who you feel should be included. Meanwhile, we thankfully acknowledge the ongoing contributions of these inspiring religious leaders.
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Most Inspiring LGBT Religious Leaders
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iknowscottyknows
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06:49 PM on 10/20/2011
Enjoy the little limelight you have while you can.
"As for man, his days are as grass, like the flower of the field so he flourishes. Then the wind passes over and it is gone, and the place thereof knows it no more." Psalm 103:15
"It is appointed once for a man to die, then the judgment." Hebrews 9:27
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Lucy0808
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11:43 PM on 10/20/2011
"Limelight"? Huh?
"Life" is the word. A powerful word, indeed.
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phyrro
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02:23 AM on 10/21/2011
Leave the "then the judgment" out and your on to something.
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ashiraladonai777
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02:55 PM on 10/23/2011
I take it you don't like that word, "judgment". But you do realize that your comment IS itself a judment. God is the Ultimate Judge. We all will stand before Him one day.
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Challlie
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11:03 PM on 10/23/2011
your comment is itself a judgment. the ultimate judge does not need a peanut gallery.
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yeshuachrist
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06:44 PM on 10/20/2011
The church is supposed to be "in" the world, not "of" the world. Yeshua's teachings are not easy to follow, they do not include adhering to the respect of persons, you treat people with righteousness, and love, but love doesn't include appeasement of someones iniquities. There is a major sea change in the world with regard to how people view G-D. They have lost their fear of him as the fear of G-D is only understood as the fear of retribution, which is misguided. We only focus on the love of Christ, not his teaching's. No person deserves to be persecuted, all people should be treated with general respect but the church ceases being a church once they begin "accepting" iniquity because they want to be "accepted" in this world.
http://www.yahwehyeshua.com
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Lucy0808
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11:46 PM on 10/20/2011
Love. All there is, is love. Love thy neighbor. Turn the other cheek. Help the least among us. Love.
It is not about the "church". It has never been.
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ashiraladonai777
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02:46 PM on 10/23/2011
God is love. As such, He alone has the right to tell us how true love is defined as He'd wired us in His image. But people being what they are have redefined love to suit themselves. Storge, Phileo, Eros, & Agape...It seems like people have gotten fixated on the Eros part & twisted it to suit an agenda anymore when even that part had a design & purpose.
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Lucy0808
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02:55 PM on 10/23/2011
For people who don't understand science, sometimes they make things up or make statements out of their lack of knowledge. Your post was in that regard.
What is meant when people say that science is objective, is the fact of the process which includes methods for inquiry, peer review, and the institution globally of highly educated and peer accepted scientists, funding apparatus and place of science record and exchange. Your example of a mistake somewhere is besides the point. It isn't even helpful. The point being the process weeds out the mistakes, or the incorrect hypotheses, or the silliness. That is so minor as to be off topic on the subject. The redundancy of science and the orthagonal inquiry, as well as peer review, screens out the junk for the most part or makes it part of the noise because the good work and the correct and repeatable work, and that which is supported by orthagonal methods overwhelmingly is in more numerous studies and by more numerous scientists, and has been "peer reviewed". This makes it a far more objective process by scientific method, peer review, and that scientists no matter where they come from in place and time, culture/religion/economic strata/and language can repeat the work(under the same criteria) or they can't and then it goes to the trash bin. This is the opposite of subjective reality put forth by religious people that can't be tested or affirmed in that same regard.
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phyrro
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02:41 AM on 10/21/2011
You must so be terrified of G-D that you can't even spell his name out or maybe you ran out of "o"s. I can send you some in fact here are bunch of them.
o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o and some capital ones also O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O if you run out I got plenty more.
From your enclosed email address it appears you have no problem with YAHW-H. I personally am terrified of him and could never spell him YAHWEH. Oh No. Now I've gone and done it.
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TomMartin
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04:41 AM on 10/21/2011
Don't forget that the word God, which you spell G-D, is of pagan origin, not Christian or Jewish.
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Willie12345
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09:23 AM on 10/21/2011
Well said.
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detroitblkmale30
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10:17 AM on 10/21/2011
I couldnt have said it any better. The other repliers have to rely on a twisting on the scriptures to justify their views. There is more to the word of God than just love, there is accountability and obedience.
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Lucy0808
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04:52 PM on 10/21/2011
The whole point of the way of love is to bypass the small minded trapping of rules for the sake of rules. The whole point is to see the world with compassion and act within it.
Your focus on accountability "punishment" or "heaven reward" is counter to creating an open heart. It is the positioning of a Homo Sapien over another Homo Sapien. In otherwords, it is pure Homo Sapien behavior of rulership.
Gods that are obsessed over human sexual organs aren't really gods or a god. It is a projection of Homo Sapien subjective perception of themselves. It is our human biology and fundamental behavior exibited by our human brain-mind. If an alien was observing us, it would be crystal clear, but it "we" that have a difficult time recognizing ourselves in our gods.
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detroitblkmale30
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10:32 PM on 10/21/2011
The whole point of love however is NOT to bypass God's word. If that were the case any sin any action would be allowable as long as "love" is concerned. You could make a justification for any sin using love as a motivation. The whole point is to usher in forgiveness and grace. When you love someone you honor what they say, in this case God's word.
No one can have an open heart without being open to every whim. No it doesnt position one person over another, it KEEPS God ahead of mankind. Your position places mankind over God. God isnt obsessed with human organs, that is one of many sins which include far more than sexual organs.
Alien? you are drifting off the deep end. It doesnt really even matter though since you are not a Christian, we arent even debating on the same plane.
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Lucy0808
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01:42 AM on 10/22/2011
Not at all.
My opinion is that your gods are a figment of your subjective mind. That is it.
The rest of your post is your subjective belief. Only that. That is my opinion and since there is no proof of your gods, it is a reasoned opinion.
Your idea of sin is uniquely biological for our species. It is strange to make that some type of sin rules dictated by a sexual organ obsessed deity. However, I understand that is your belief. Homo Sapiens have a history with over many thousands of gods. Are you saying only your is real and all of the thousands upon thousands of other gods are not?
Compassion, forgiveness and helping the least among us is the way. It is sad that you are obsessed with Homo Sapien shariah. Some are and miss the whole way of being with an open heart and mind.
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detroitblkmale30
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08:19 AM on 10/22/2011
You are welcome to your opinion. Its wrong, but you are welcome to it. It is not an "opinion" That is something inate to my mind without any other grounds for belief. Clearly I have other grounds for belief. Once again it is your opinion that God is obsessed with sex organs, that is but ONE of dozens of concepts that God focuses on. He is obsessed with all aspects of the lives of his creations. Yes I am saying mine is real, and that is definitely within the realm of possibility.
You are the one obsessed with "homo sapien" whatever you keep using it. You speak like an alien. Are you not a human being too? I have an open heart, I just dont believe that my faith calls me to have an open mind to the extent that I believe whatever popular opinion says. What's the point of even having a faith then?
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Lucy0808
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02:01 AM on 10/22/2011
My belief is that you have a monkey god. A primate god. A Homo Sapien god. Everything about it smell, sounds, and has the behavior of a Homo Sapien with super powers. Like the historic thousands upon thousands of gods. They are all Homo Sapien projections. Is that surprising? Hardly. We don't have kitty gods or snake gods or insect gods. We don't have plant gods. Our gods are uniquely human. Same thinking patters. Same biological emotions. Same obsession with our biology and sexual organs and contact. Support of slavery and subjugation of women. What food to eat. What cloth to wear. Avoidance of sex during women's menstrual cycle. Hopefully, humans can grow up and recognize themselves in their gods. With the tools of reason and science it is apparent to such a high level that one must practice daily cognitive dissonance to deny it. As the reality outside us is explained more and more, and the subjective reality explained for our inner machinations (consciousness, memory, language, ethics/morals, feelings of other people around us, feelings of spirits and gods). All explained by simple constructs by our brain-mind for the purpose of utility as a social primate.
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detroitblkmale30
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08:26 AM on 10/22/2011
LOL My belief is that your opinion with all of its attempted disparagement is growing increasingly comical. Monkey god? LOL Ok whatever you say. There is a difference between Christianity and all of the other ancient and non-existent religons. They are non existent. We also dont have monkey gods..thank you for playing. Next. You are really obsessed with this ONE aspect of what God had to say so much so that you categorize him simply by that which of course is blatantly obtuse and ignorant.
You also clealry dont understand the various theological concepts that existed at different times within the Bible. Everything was for a reason, but everything is not applied to present day. Wrong again the more science reveals about mankind the mroe we see that for example we are "hardwired" for such a spiritual connection. Wonder who hard wired us? hmmmmm The notion that we consciencously invented God for no reason on our own isnt the case.
Again there is no point in us debating such issue at least not on a Christian level as you have no belief in it. I wonder why with all of your derisions that you even bother to follow your Jeffersonian "Jesus" Afterall if you are so reasonable enlightened you wouldn't "need" him at all.
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Lucy0808
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11:52 AM on 10/22/2011
It is not a question of "popular opinion". Just science which is far more objective than the minds of imaginative Homo Sapiens.
I am correct. However, I do believe that you believe in your subjective mind. Never said I didn't. You aren't reading with comprehension, unfortunately.
There is not any objective proof of gods. Thus far, that is. This is hardly a secret. It is known.
I left Christianity after decades and I do know about what it is. You have your god. There have been thousands upon thousands of gods in our human, Homo Sapien, history. All of them were true in a subjective imagined preceived world. I never doubted it. Yours, too.
Yes, your god is obsessed with sexual organs, sex, and other Homo Sapien biology and biological behavior. Uniquely so. This is because it is a projection of a Homo Sapien mind. The behavior is unique to a primate and a primate of our species. That is interesting enough in and of itself. You can't even recognize the mirror before you. Some religions like Buddhism do recognize this simplistic Homo Sapien mirror. Christians don't.
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detroitblkmale30
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09:36 PM on 10/22/2011
science is irrelevant in matters of theological context. This isnt about objectivity its about divine supernatural context which is beyond the context of science.
I am reading with clear comprehension you are not correct. You again, are welcome to your incorrect opinion. I never said there was proof of God, you state the obvious for someone reason.
So simply because there have been thousands of gods in human history thus the Christian God must be false?? That makes no sense. Its a subjective opinion. Nothing more. You cannot definitively say that the Christian God does not exist. That too is a fact. All you have to offer are musings about other unrelated gods that is irrelevant in this context.
No my God is NOT obsessed with sexual organs. lol That is merely the context of this discussion. Does theft or murder involve sexual organs? or any of the other non sex related admonitions in Christianity? You beat a dead horse. I see the mirror clearly you are blinded by your repetitious obession with the phrase "homo sapien" Cant you just say human being? Give it up already, its not working.
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ashiraladonai777
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02:41 PM on 10/23/2011
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree that science is "objective". To refute that comment, I need to point out that there have been w/in the last 2-4 yrs in the news examples of people who've "tinkered" w/ data on some very high-profile stories that were tendentiously written so as to promote a particular view of science so as to sway popular opinion in favor of said experimentation, but later on it was found that the research data had been falsified. I can agree that data can in fact be neutral if it's truly the object to follow where it leads, but in this case, the course had already been predetermined--dishonestly so.
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Lucy0808
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12:03 PM on 10/22/2011
Your post is in error: "..."hardwired" for such a spiritual connection. Wonder who hard wired us?". First, you misunderstand the science. Humans are social animals. Social primates and immensely so. Their minds are arranged to create perceptions of other humans. Our brains are "wired" to perceive and make simple constructs with utility that allow us to predict the behavior of other human beings in our group. This has been shown by neuroscience studies. The mapping of how this is done does exist. We perceive other humans through these perceived constructs. We don't really perceive them for what they are. Just a simple representation for utility purposes. Evolution was severe and our human social behavior had huge evolutionary advantage (food gathering, hunting, educating, taking care of babies and the ill), passing down information. The same mechanisms that are used to perceive the "other" and create and artificial construct are used for perception of self and self awareness.We don't really perceive ourselves, but only a simplified construct (which changes all the time) for utility purposes. It is the exact same wiring and not any special wiring. The same wiring is used to perceive and give purposed objectives to inanimate objects outside oneself (thunder, earthquakes, diseases, floods) and "feel" that these are caused by purpose driven entitites. Same exact wiring. Attributes from our most basic social wiring had the consequences of making objective driven inanimate objects be spirits of purpose even though they don't exist.
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detroitblkmale30
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09:38 PM on 10/22/2011
No I do not misunderstand the science. When scientists themselves who know far more than you or I suggest this hardwiring may indeed have spiritual ramifications it is not I, but you who are in error.
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Lucy0808
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10:11 PM on 10/22/2011
You absolutely misunderstand the science.
Your post is in error:“..I don't misunderstand the science... .”
The idea of spirt to your is one of gods that are separate from the human species and separate from a human being. It's false.The science only show the subjectivity of constructs created by human brain-minds. What this means is that we are social creatures. We create in our minds, the subjective construct of a perceived "other" human being or other creature and that construct is truncated but sufficient for utility to predict the behavior of "the other". We are social primate animals and this is our social behavior. It's not even fully representative, but only enough to be useful for perceived intention. The same exact brain-mind pathways and mapping are used by us for our sense of self. It is truncated and not fully representative. It isn't even representative as reality. It's only enough for utility. It changes constantly from the past with many versions. It is a subjective construct, a ventriloquist act to give a sense of the "other" or ourselves. The same machinery of the brain-mind is used for inanimate objects (thunder, floods, lightening, diseases, whatever) to give a subjective construct of purpose and behavior. Like a puppy without a body, we create a perceived subjective and totally imagined construct of a spirit that doesn't exist.The same machinery of the brain for all of it. The same mechanisms. You are lost in the machine.
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detroitblkmale30
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10:41 PM on 10/22/2011
NO, I do not. What it means, as said by the science is that our minds and brains are naturally inclined to either believe in or create the notion of God. This isnt social behavior. It is representative of not only our reality but the reality of the world and universe around us. Now religions may change and come and go based upon the time the people the beliefs etc, but that neither changes the scientific reality of our minds nor does it alter the possiblity that the Christian God does indeed exisit. You cannot say he does not definitively. You can only suppose he doesnt. The deeper question then is why do we have this hard wiring and where does it come from? Why arent we hardwired for only scientific or purely rational, within the bounds of nature thought? hmmmm Even you cannot answer that question. You are are lost in the machine of denial.
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Lucy0808
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10:55 PM on 10/22/2011
As I said, you don't understand the science of neurscience concerning the human brain-mind. I am absolutely correct that it is using the same machinery as that used for social perception of the "other". This is known in our field. It is the same machinery used for perception of "self" and creating a truncated version of self just like a truncated version of the "other" homo sapien. The difference is that we have more information about self. For gods/spirits or any disembodied and inanimate object, it is the same. we look for purpose driven constructs and make them up on the fly. Our minds do this naturally for the "other"humans, for ourselves, and for the inanimate things that go bump in the night of flash lightning or cause floods, etc.. It is based on the same brain-mind machinery of looking for those things that are objective driven and for utility's sake predicting the behavior of such. We are a social animal, the most social of all. Our survival depends on defining the other and predicting its behavior, and cooperating. Studies have been done that support this. New studies are being used from what has been learned to model on computers. It is all truncated constructs of the other, self, and disembodied bumpy things. None of it is real. Only enough information to be useful and predictive. Even the self construct changes over time and there are multiple ones.Buddhism describes this. Science describes it.
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Saijanai
Micro bio? We don't need no stinkin' micro bio... .
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12:51 AM on 10/23/2011
I don't necessarily disagree with what you say, but I suspect it is more complicated than current research suggests.
All of the research you refer to has been done on abnormal, that is to say, non-enlightened, brains. The most commonly studied meditation practices these days yield radically different EEG patterns than TM and the "enlightenment" EEG signature of TM theory turns out to be the pure consciousness signature during TM superimposed on normal waking, dreaming and sleeping patterns.
TM theory predicts higher states, named in the Yoga Sutras as "god consciousness" and "unity consciousness," and says that they don't occur until after the first stage of enlightenment is manifest.
One can easily claim that one is seeing a god or gods, or that a person is "one with the universe," but TM theory says that the objective criteria for those claims is the ability to perform any and all of the sidhis, at will. There's no documented cases of anyone, TMing, or otherwise, who can float around the room, even for an instant, letalone "at will," so extrapolating what the physiological correlates of such exalted states would be like is premature, at best.
Of course, it may be that TM theory is wrong and that no-one has ever floated or ever will, etc., but still, I wouldn't presume that you know what "real" communion with God looks like, physiologically speaking.
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detroitblkmale30
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09:56 AM on 10/23/2011
As I said I do understand it and disagree with what you have said as does the other poster.Repeating it doesnt make me agree with you anymore. I don't agree with your take on it. You are in no position of course to say whether its real or not definitively as science hasnt arrived at that answer, its merely your biased opinion. Being a social animal still doesnt explain the "wired" leaning for God, only the leanings toward human to human contact. There are plenty of links I'd be happy to share with you for your further understanding.
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Lucy0808
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11:39 AM on 10/23/2011
Saijanai, your post "All of the research you refer to has been done on abnormal... brains." For the last 20yrs, neuroscience studies have made great progress in this regard, but it's early as science goes. However, it doesn't negate the studies done which have been poignant and informative. You are incorrect that all of the studies are on diseased or damaged individuals. I think you know this if your thought of it. Perception "intention" mapping has been routinely done on well people, and of course on ill people. Your post focused only on consciousness which is just one part of the problem. My post was about how subjective constructs of "perceived and objective driven others" is created by the human brain-mind. Certainly consciousness is how we become aware of these constructs. However, how the constructs are made and from what is important. For what purpose is important.That they are generally the same for mapping and creating constructs of "other human minds with perceived intentions" as well as one's own construct of self (with perceived intentions) is interesting and makes sense since the body reuses and adapts what exists and doesn't usually make brand new things. The same brain-mind machinery is used for mapping and creating constructs of a perceived intention (in this case false intentions)of inanimate objects or ethereal imagined ones.
Your Tm description is about something else. A different topic but certainly would be integrated in the subject matter. I see no conflict.
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Saijanai
Micro bio? We don't need no stinkin' micro bio... .
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12:49 PM on 10/23/2011
"You are incorrect that all of the studies are on diseased or damaged individuals."
You missed my point. ALL research in neuroscience, by TM theory, has been done on less than healthy individuals. The TM definition of "normal" is "enlightened."
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02:46 PM on 10/23/2011
Mr Saiganai, your post misunderstands. You posted to my posts and entered the conversation on a topic. As I said, I have no argument with your post, but your post was off the topic I was posting on. My posts stand for the topic I was discussing. That is it. Yes, on the topics I was discussing there is a great amount of data using normal healthy subjects as well as studies based on those that have had trauma to their brain, have new diseases, or genetic disease(or suspected so), like autism.
I was talking about mapped constructs of the mind of others "as intentioned minds". Homo Sapiens are extremely social creatures with well developed language and also the ability to make in their minds representations of "others' mindsand intentions". This creates feelings of minds of others outside oneself for purposes of utility. The constructs are simple and made up. The same machinery maps "self" as a made up construct. This is hardly knew material and represents near 20 yrs of work. The same machinery mapps constructs of intentioned others that don't even exist, such as inanimate objects, spirits, ghosts, and Olympian gods. It is the same machinery. The constructs aren't for reasoning, but for a sense of "feeling". One feels someone is xxx. One feels a sense of self. One feels a sense of Athena next to one. It is the same machinery. I wasn't posting about Tm. You were.
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11:17 AM on 10/23/2011
You don't know the science. You don't know the neuroscience at all. Your post shows it. I spoke the truth. Yes, social perception mapping is the same machinations (in general) as perceptial mapping of self. It is supported scientifically, and makes sense how ideas and maps (constructs) are made. Awareness of other, is similar to awareness of self. The same machinations are used as a byproduct of mapping "other" that happen to be non-human. Other animals, of course. Other inanimate objects, giving them false intentionality in the perception maps. It is the same thing for spirits/ghosts/and the pantheon of gods. Tree spirits, river spirits, sky spirits, etc..
You are correct that the work is in the early phase for the last 20yrs. You are incorrect that the science doesn't support this. It does. There is a great deal of work that needs to be done.
Lay people that don't agree is simply about them not knowing the science (which most don't) and that they want to support their subjective belief system. I'm a scientists and I just want to see what the status of it is and how it progresses. Your are a religious person using out of context information (poorly understood and misinformed) to support your subjective constructs and premise. Why would I beieve that? It doesn't make any sense.
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detroitblkmale30
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02:13 PM on 10/23/2011
Again repeating your post doesnt make you any more correct. I do understand it. I can read. My post demonstrates that. You simply refuse to allow any other possibilities which dont correspond to your biased view.None of what you say explains why people are wired in this way. You have still failed to adequately explain this outside of merely stating its mapping based on social perception, which makes no sense in the context of supernatural conceptualizations. Tree spirits etc that you refer to and those notions are irrelevant. Wrong again it is properly informed and supported by scientific minds smarter than you or I. Further posting from your limited perspective will not convince me otherwise.
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02:39 PM on 10/23/2011
As I said, you are incorrect and don't know the science. I am talking about how information is mapped in our brains and how constructs are created in that process. Reality isn't mapped. It is a made up map for utility's sake. You aren't comprehending that and are caught up in something outside of the science. The brain which is an organ creates mind maps.I am talking about those that are created to represent the "other minds" separate from oneself. In otherwords, creatures outside oneself "as intentioned individual minds". How those are mapped is for social purpose and utility. The same mapping methods and areas of the brain, and the same process is used to map "self" as an intentioned individual. It is a mental construct for convinience and utility. It is a very simple construct and not that which is the wealth of information from the outside world or inside world. It is a simple model for convinience. The same brain-mind processes are used to map inanimate things. The mind looks for intentioned things outside of itself. This is routinely done. The process is used for incorrecly mapping intention onto inanimate things and spirits (thunder, lightening, whatever bumps in the night).
I am talking about the biology, neurobiology, mapping of information and the creation of constructs for "intentioned beings" ...those with mind, those thought to have mind, and those faked to have mind. It is the same general machinery of the brain and the brain-mind.
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detroitblkmale30
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09:09 PM on 10/23/2011
I get it. I dont agree. You arent convincing, to me or others who have disagreed with you on this subject. I agree with other scientists. God isnt mapped for social utility. That's not correct. Once again, no matter how many times you repeat the same thing it doesnt become more convincing. I think your take on this subject is wrong.
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Lucy0808
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09:42 PM on 10/23/2011
You missed the entire point of it all.
You missed the science.
You absolutely don't know anything about the science. You even mistate words and concepts. It shows you don't even have a rudimenary understanding of the topic. Your post is silly.
You didn't even read for comprehension my posts. You mistate them so off the mark it is quite odd.
The only other person that posted to my thread comments here was a person posting about Tm. Tm is a different subject and he just confused the topic.
You are mistaken.
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detroitblkmale30
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10:13 PM on 10/23/2011
NO I didnt. I understand the science. I dont agree with your perspective on it. I did read your post. You have repeated the same principles over and over again. It shows that you are stuck to you perspective on the science, which for the 100th time I believe is mistaken.
No I am not. Thanks for your opinion.
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Godislove7
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11:02 PM on 10/23/2011
Lucy I have read your posts and you do indeed offer the same principle over and over again. I agree with DBM30. Your "social mapping" approach fails to account for why these minds are mapped in this way. You fail to draw a distinction between what the mind "creates" and what has been created in the mind. At the end of the day the "science" is inconclusive. You may take issue with DBM' grasp or perspective on the science, but you cannot say that the mind is not wired that way as science itself is still inconclusive on it. It may be the case it may not be we don't know.
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Lucy0808
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01:04 AM on 10/24/2011
You are incorrect.
The understanding of the brain-mind mapping has changed over the last 20yrs. Yes, mapping "the perceived other mind" outside of oneself is the same machinery of the brain-mind.
It isn't an issue of gods. That is something you keep bringing up and that isn't about the science. You bring in religion and I state the science. You make up stuff, and I state the science.
Your posts are about religion and your belief system. It is very subjective by definition and by your posts.
Spend some time looking into the science of human brian-mind mapping of perceived other minds and the intentionality of those minds. By definition the mapping of "other minds" is mapping disembodied minds.
This will be getting into the popular press over the next two years and maybe then you'll listen. You don't follow the science for sure.
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detroitblkmale30
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09:57 AM on 10/24/2011
Wrong. Me bring in God is not making it about God, it is discussing the scientific suggestions that brains are wired for a belief in God, There is a difference. I didnt make that up. That isnt subjective at all. Its already in the popular press, at least what I am describing. You should spend some time looking into the science. Maybe you will listen. You dont follow THIS science for sure.
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Lucy0808
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01:16 AM on 10/24/2011
A good book for lay people that don't understand the science or science is the following: "God, Soul, Mind, Brain: A Neuroscientist's Reflections On the Spirit World" by Michael S. Graziano. It is made for lay people and is not very thick. It is written beautifully and clearly, and respectfully. Journal articles are not included, but the concepts are described with some examples and analogies to help explain the science as well as where things are going.
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detroitblkmale30
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10:01 AM on 10/24/2011
shortly I will provide you with a host of different soures that support what I have said. They will be a good read for you.
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detroitblkmale30
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01:46 PM on 10/24/2011
I suggest you try the following:
Hard-wired for God? The Faith Instinct How Religion Evolved and Why It Endures, Nicholas Wade. Its not very thick and explains the principles I have been discussing.
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Lucy0808
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01:27 AM on 10/24/2011
How do you perceive another human being's "mind"?
How do you perceive your own mind?
How do you perceive the "intentionality of a disembodied mind"?
All of these use the same brain-mind mechanisms.
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detroitblkmale30
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09:58 AM on 10/24/2011
That's fine, but none of those are relevant to the particular issues I have raised within the mind as its make up is concerned in the area of supernatual belief and connections. You keep raising tangential things.
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Lucy0808
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12:17 PM on 10/24/2011
What I posted was not a tangent to the issue of "mapping constructs of the "other mind" as well as one's own" with the "awareness of the mapped construct". This machinery is exactly the same. That is how evolution works. It coopts what already exists. It doesn't create a new mechanism out of nothing. It piggybacks on what exists, but may have new gene mutations or new promoter mutations, and likely big copy number additions(or deletions) of promoters.
This set of mechanism provide a "feeling" of another mind and a "feeling" of our own mind (both of which are feelings of the existence of the construct. You don't feel the reality). This operates and cycles routinely looking for "others with intentions". It is messy. Most feelings of mind outside oneself are for real minds that exist, but also other minds with intention are mapped onto things that are inanimate and provide the illusion of another mind and the feeling that that mind exists.
I provided a book reference is you look. It is one for lay people and people not familiar with the science and the concepts. It is a very well written book, concise and clear, and short. You may like to read it.
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detroitblkmale30
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01:49 PM on 10/24/2011
It is tangential. I didnt say it created something out of nothing. The notion is though that it already existed. . Feelings are merely a symptom, not a cause and irrelevant to the origins of this faith hard wiring.. There are distinctions between I provided you a book for reference as well with good reviews that explains much, but not all of my points, written by a non-religious, scientific mind.
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Lucy0808
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12:29 PM on 10/24/2011
Mr detrotimale30, I know the science. It is my profession, contrary to your posts.
I haven't denied that the human brain-mind feels things that are interpreted as spirits or whatever. In fact, I state that over and over again in my posts. That is what my posts are about. What I do say is that the same machinery is used for the profound function in the real world with other human beings, and the creation and recognition of a construct of the self-mind. It is the same machinery and hardly surprising considering how evolution works and how biology of systems work. It is the current cutting edge of science in this regard. That you don't know it is not an insult, it is just that you don't know it.
The justification is that we are profoundly "wired" (your word) for looking for "minds and their intentions" for utility purpose because it makes profound differences for survival. Everything goes with it and is linked for the recognition of mind/intentions/ and enough to predict behavior. The same machinery is used for creation of self constructs and recognizing intention. The same machinery is used to "capture unrelated things into an inanimate other" and feel intentions. That feeling is the subjective feeling of spirits or gods. It is the same machinery.
If you send me journal article reference, please send only those from good journals and peer accepted scientists.
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detroitblkmale30
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01:56 PM on 10/24/2011
Just because it is your profession, doesnt make you correct. There are millions of scientists out there. Many of them are often wrong. That is what you keep missing. I am not debating whether the human mind feels spirits. That YOU do not understand this cutting edge research is even more shocking consiering you are indeed a scientist as you keep saying. We repeatedly keep talking in circles. I understand your "same machinery" argument. We arent profoundly wired for religion because of social purposes. That wouldnt make much sense now would it. We can be inherently social without religion. Instead we are hard wired for religion or faith instinct in general and science is attempting to determine exactly why that is. Which is why you cannot say tht it isnt for a connection to supernatual God. Afterall that would be logical within the context of religion.
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Lucy0808
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05:36 PM on 10/24/2011
Hard-wired for God? The Faith Instinct How Religion Evolved and Why It Endures, Nicholas Wade.. Thank you for the reference. I actually have read it and it is a good book. However, it is not written on the neurobiology of the brain-mind. It is a book on a different, orthagonal approach to evolution and selection for certain relgiousity types of features. That is a different topic than what I posted endlessly about. I was posting about the physical/biological brain and the creation of mind and how it happens, how information of the "other minds" is important to our species, how constructs are mapped and how they provide a "feeling" of the other minds, a "feeling" of self, and a "feeling of intentions from inanimate objects". All use the same physical mechanism in the brain-mind.
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detroitblkmale30
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09:02 PM on 10/24/2011
Which is explains how we really arent even talking about the same things. I think we have exhausted this enough.
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Lucy0808
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04:58 PM on 10/25/2011
Nciholas Wade did not propose mechanisms in the brain-mind that were responsible for religiousity. He only discussed those attributes of religiousity that may have been helpful for man's survival in ancient times and how specific attributes ( behavioral features) that may have been selected for. The actual mechanisms of the chemistry, biology of a brain organ, and the neurobiology mechanisms were not part of the purpose of the book. This latter topic is one of the top exciting research areas today and necessary. Talking about evolution of language, culture, or religiousity without a mechanism is only a small part of the science.
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ashiraladonai777
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02:59 PM on 10/23/2011
I wonder if this applies at some of the coverage I've seen of some Pride Days where there is plenty to be seen of sexual organs. Hmmmmm...Things that make you go, "Hmmmm..."
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hank p wall
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06:16 PM on 10/20/2011
One cannot imagine St. Francis of Assisi talking about rights.
--Simone Weil
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Lucy0808
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11:50 PM on 10/20/2011
Just to be clear.
St. Francis of Assisi did not live in the United States of America. He worked within monarchies and totalitarian church governments. There is a difference.
In our country, we have a Constitution that supports civil rights, and not mixing a specific religious sect creed with government policies.
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felliott
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12:41 AM on 10/21/2011
As a cradle Catholic who was also born gay, I've taken a great deal of interest in how the Church has dealt with the question of the protection of rights of gay people. What I've heard is the claim that the Church isn't against gay people; rather, it's for protecting the special status of heterosexual relationships.
As a native of Louisiana, I find the Church's argument indistinguishable from claim made by modern white supremacist leaders that they do not hate blacks or Jews, but they are concerned with protecting the white race.
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Syllogizer
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06:06 PM on 10/20/2011
Inspiring? Really? Them? It was the most inspiring religious preacher of all time who warned us that the passion your heroes indulge in is "the most degrading of all the degrading passions". So the only 'inspiring' your heroes can do it what, exactly? Not holy inspiration, that is for sure.
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tygr49
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11:05 PM on 10/20/2011
Your pure, unadulterated bigotry is a source of great inspiration to some, I'm sure. Thankfully, your numbers are dwindling.
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Lucy0808
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11:51 PM on 10/20/2011
I agree. It is so interesting that one can make such statements with such flippant self-righteousness and bigotry.
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Willie12345
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09:25 AM on 10/21/2011
Well said.
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Scott Amundsen
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10:17 AM on 10/21/2011
"Inspiring? Really? Them? It was the most inspiring religious preacher of all time who warned us that the passion your heroes indulge in is "the most degrading of all the degrading passions". So the only 'inspiring' your heroes can do it what, exactly? Not holy inspiration, that is for sure."
To whom exactly are you referring when you say "the most inspiring religious preacher of all time?" Because as sure as I am sitting here, it was not Jesus who said that quote that you apparently attributed to Him. That quote is from the book of Proverbs, believed to have been written by Solomon.
As for Jesus, He never said WORD ONE about homosexuality. Nothing. Nada. And you cannot make the claim that He did without making a liar and a fool of yourself.
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Georgia1992
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05:42 PM on 10/21/2011
"As for Jesus, He never said WORD ONE about homosexuality. Nothing. Nada."
Fanned and Fav'd.
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ashiraladonai777
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03:23 PM on 10/23/2011
Perhaps not directly, but I digress on this point:
3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”
4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[b]? 6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”
7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”
8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.” (Matthew 19:3-9 NIV 1984)
Although the text applies to the topic of divorce, Jesus REAFFIRMED God's Biblical CREATION model for marriage: one husband to one wife. That is the way God designed it to be. That is the model man has destroyed on so many levels anymore.
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Raniee
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07:05 PM on 10/21/2011
If he'd said, you would be on their side?
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SKamath
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01:51 PM on 10/24/2011
Great question, and a pretty simple one that exposes the dogma of religion. Morality is based on bronze age authors' edicts. Not on evaluation of why is something moral or immoral.
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Varys
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04:54 PM on 10/20/2011
I, for one, am glad that there are religious leaders willing to oppose the Bible.
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GDWhiteman
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05:45 PM on 10/20/2011
Much of what you call opposing the Bible is more on the order of different understandings of the Bible that conflict with traditional doctrines.
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Varys
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06:00 PM on 10/20/2011
There are explicit passages of the Bible that state the punishment for homosexuality should be death. How do you "interpret" that in a positive light? I don't think you can.
To quote an influential person on this subject:
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." - Albert Einstein
I couldn't agree more.
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HarleyOpenRoad
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06:09 PM on 10/20/2011
Einstein was a scientist.
His opinion on religion means no more than anyone else.
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BornOKtheFirstTime
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01:14 PM on 10/21/2011
Exactly!
In the same way that the opinions of Paul and Jesus mean no more than those of anyone else.
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Syllogizer
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06:09 PM on 10/20/2011
Your agreement with him means nothing. For his words carry no weight. Even on topics where he was an expert, Einstein often allowed his obstinacy to get in the way of recognizing the truth, such as when he said "God does not play dice with the world".
Are you aware of the irony? One of the Founding Fathers of Quantum Mechanics denied the implications -- now universally accepted -- of his own work.
If he could be so in error in his own specialty, just think how far off he could be when he got outside it -- as he did in the words you love to quote.
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GDWhiteman
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06:09 PM on 10/20/2011
Offering Einstein as an authority is quite the red herring, but let's skip by that.
Given that you're apparently buying the traditional viewpoint of the scripture you mentioned, please allow me to offer another: the homosexual behavior condemned as punishable by stoning is homosexual rape - a common way for victors in warfare to force the vanquished to bow before them. This has 2 problems - it's clearly unloving and it amounts to the rapist putting himself in a "God" position relative to the loser of the battle. In an iron age, nomadic culture, does stoning not seem an appropriate punishment? And besides, almost anyone with a brain knows God didn't actually say that.
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Varys
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06:53 PM on 10/20/2011
Yeah, nice try, but your interpretation is simply not correct. No scholar worth his salt will support what you're trying to argue. It's just a bald-faced attempt to sanitize holy scripture.
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GDWhiteman
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07:32 PM on 10/20/2011
Au contraire - a good many peer-respected scholars come to the same conclusion. Sanitize? They still see stoning. With the sole "agenda" of academic integrity, they want the Bible to be understood rather than turned into a religion.
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Varys
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07:42 PM on 10/20/2011
I've never accused a believer of having a firm grasp of reality, and I'm not going to start now.
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Pale Writer
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02:02 AM on 10/21/2011
And exactly who are these "peer respected" scholars that support this Biblical exegesis you have set forth here? Still curious...
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GDWhiteman
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06:58 AM on 10/21/2011
Am I the only person in this discussion who can use a search engine? I've observed a pattern emerging with "orthodox" conservatives. Apparently they go to great lengths to keep their list of "acceptable" authorities short and favorable to them by discounting differing views in various ways. e.g. if they can imagine some agenda on the part of the scholar that differs with their own agenda, conservatives feel free to wave off the differing view as inconsequential. I'm not going to jump thru your hoop - it's too small. It won't take you two minutes on a major search engine to find a couple. Do what you will with that information.
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Pale Writer
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05:59 PM on 10/21/2011
GD - You appeal to authorities that you cannot name and then accuse me of having an "agenda" and "discounting differing views"? No so, my friend. I just expect that if you are going to make claims outside of the theological concensus, that you provide a source. A peer respected, credible source. Instead, you'd rather blame me for asking...ok, When you figure out who these scholars are, let me know...
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ashiraladonai777
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03:46 PM on 10/23/2011
In the case of Sodom & Gomorrah, there might be cause to believe in the idea of rape...but not as per Leviticus:
http://interlinearbible.org/leviticus/20-13.htm
If God didn't actually say any of these things -- either Himself or thru the prophets, why bother using the Bible as any authority figure? To me, that's just playing into the devil's hands.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 NIV 1984
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor%206:9-11&version=NIV1984
I like the past tense in this: "11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." We ALL have fallen short of God's mark.
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GDWhiteman
Christian mystic iconoclast .
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04:14 PM on 10/23/2011
Homosexual rape in S&G was yet another example - not post conquering in warfare - just to let strangers in town know who's boss.
I don't adhere to any notion that the Bible is "God's Word". Some may grant it authority under their sect of Christianity. I use it at times in conjunction with meditation.
Mostly I tick off conservatives when I tell them that their focus on sin, sin, sin is a waste of time for all but the highly religious who have a problem admitting they're not perfect. I too have noticed the frequent use of past tense - yet another thing that irks conservatives when I call their attention to it.
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ashiraladonai777
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09:23 PM on 10/23/2011
Jesus acknowledged that sin was & remains real--& that it has eternal consequences. So you have a religion of your own design then that doesn't readily acknowledge sin, but somehow I don't doubt that were you a victim of a sin acknowledged as such in the Bible, you'd be the first to complain that someone had wronged you. It all boils down to "Loving God first" & then "Loving others as we love ourselves." If these were put into place first, the rest would follow...but human beings being what they are, sin all the time--& then try to deny its reality--or justify it.
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GDWhiteman
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02:42 PM on 10/24/2011
""but human beings being what they are, sin all the time--& then try to deny its reality--or justify it" - all I can add to that is, "or justify their accusations of others as a means of avoiding confronting their own"
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KDMac
It's called sarcasm, Genius. .
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10:30 AM on 10/21/2011
And there are scientists now who are saying his Theory of Relativity was wrong.
http://www.economist.com/node/21531006
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eric0063
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11:57 AM on 10/21/2011
Reading the Bible and understanding the Bible aren't necessarily the same thing. The whole law issue seems to be the greatest source of amusement for those who don't understand what it is. The law and it's punishment was for Israel. It encompassed 3 types of laws, moral, civil, and ceremonial.
Ceremonial laws were fulfilled by Jesus, that's why Christians aren't offering animal sacrifices. It's a finished work.
Civil laws existed for Israel as a nation to set them apart from other nations. Since Christians are not Israel, we are not subject to those laws (dietary restrictions, etc.)
Moral requirements, though codified in the law, existed both before and subsequent to the law. That's why murder was wrong from the beginning. That's why homosexuality is wrong today as it was then. These laws still apply to us in that the teach us right from wrong moral behavior. The penalty doesn't apply (which is really good news for all the disobedient children and their parents) but the standards remain.
With all due respect to Einstein, anyone who thinks that living a Christian life exemplifies weakness has never really tried to do it.
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HarleyOpenRoad
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06:11 PM on 10/20/2011
There are plenty of others.
Scientology, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, to name a few.
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TomMartin
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04:49 AM on 10/21/2011
Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses love the Bible, don't oppose it. So don't mix the Scientologist cult with the others.
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HarleyOpenRoad
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06:06 AM on 10/21/2011
If they truly loved the Bible, they wouldn't have invented their own version.
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TomMartin
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06:27 AM on 10/21/2011
We do not have any original manuscripts of the Bible, so people are free to decide what is inspired. The early copies differ from each other in many verses.
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HarleyOpenRoad
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10:45 AM on 10/21/2011
The NWT Bible has many changes that are not supported by any other translation teams, and the NWT was invented after the religion was established.
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el sistema
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04:22 PM on 10/20/2011
Ted Haggard is not on the list. I think Ted really inspired all of us to see Christianity through a different lens. It's a joy to be able to sit back and marvel at his life, his values and how he views honesty and integrity.
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GDWhiteman
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06:45 PM on 10/20/2011
I don't think this list was "those inspiring laughter"
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TomMartin
Freedom and equality. .
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04:52 AM on 10/21/2011
Ted Haggard is no longer a fundamentalist.
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GDWhiteman
Christian mystic iconoclast .
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06:41 AM on 10/21/2011
If so, good for him.
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detroitblkmale30
Wise Men Still Seek Him .
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10:24 AM on 10/21/2011
LOL
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voicebodycheck
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03:40 PM on 10/20/2011
Free love blinds the use of moral purpose.
Over zeal blinds good use of application of love.
God says don't sin, so HIS best advice is shoved away...
We say (PAUL'S QUOTE), "be content therewith what ever state".
Our quotes make us accept the unacceptable because if we don't
we pay the popularity poll and get ousted!
Morality to a sinner is a bad word and faith is just another
angle at what makes life impossible to the "UNBELIEVER
"...And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall
wax cold. Matt 24:12
What is faith then, in application it is to believe everything God says, and do it,
And if we don't then ask for forgiveness. THAT IS WHY THE CROSS AND DEATH OF CHRIST. He takes over what we humanly fail. Life is better when you don't weaken... they say!
MOREOVER?...And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called [the place] of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha: Jhn 19:18 Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst. Jhn 19:19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put [it] on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
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Bill J4321
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04:12 PM on 10/20/2011
Never jump into a pile of leaves with a wet sucker.
~ Book of Linus, KING OF THE PEANUTS.
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el sistema
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04:27 PM on 10/20/2011
I think it's better to put down the books of prejudice and open yourself up to humanity instead.
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iknowscottyknows
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06:31 PM on 10/20/2011
Humanity has no hate, prejudice, bigotry, murder?
How can you overlook the actions of the non-religious?
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el sistema
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08:51 PM on 10/20/2011
The non-religious aren't necessarily using books that promote divisiveness and intolerance.
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Valksy
civis mundi sum .
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04:45 PM on 10/20/2011
Just more christo-babble.
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voicebodycheck
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04:31 PM on 11/09/2011
if you run from your own sexual misbehaviour, looking for the Saviour, you will get his help.
but if you ask a human being for peaunut butter and bread they will say you gone crazy and
you ought to join some subversive group to get your point across.
Jesus Salvation is like no other.
and most people can't stand that if they serve subversive groups they attack a belief in him and to them that is a good thing even for debate.
personally if a person is hungry, i don't ask their religion or if they have confessed first!
MISSIONARY
CLAUDIA HUMPHREY
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raker
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02:35 PM on 10/20/2011
What makes Manji a religious leader? According to her web site her mission is about moral leadership, not religion. A religious leader be someone who's primary occupation is the religion biz, no?
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Coloradem
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03:18 PM on 10/20/2011
Have you read her most recent book? She is a definite leader in reforming Islam.
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Richard McRae
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02:23 PM on 10/20/2011
The LGBT that succumb to religion confuse me almost as much as those that are Republicans.
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22Keys
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03:09 PM on 10/20/2011
When one has a homophobic family member it usually does not mean that you stop associating with them. You love them despite their fault (which through much conversation you hope to eliminate).
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Richard McRae
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03:22 PM on 10/20/2011
Well when someone has an entire family with a long history of homophobia, it's generally acceptable to distance yourself from them.
The religious and the GOP (who are usually one and the same) more than any other party works to limit or eliminate completely the rights and privileges of anyone who doesn't believe like they do. Women, then blacks, then the LGBT community, then atheists (with a TON of other groups scattered between) have consistently had to fight for equal rights and representation from the religious and/or Republicans.
Religious republican conservatives are the biggest threat to human rights in the US.
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22Keys
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03:40 PM on 10/20/2011
Religion is a fundamental human phenomenon. There is nothing intrinsically evil, homophobic, violent, racist, sexist, etc. about it. While some ugly manifestations of faith have certainly presented themselves throughout history, these bigoted ideas exist apart from religion. Having been raised in S. California, I had the pleasure of witnessing many secular people who fit all of the above categories as well. Let's not paint with too broad a brush here, and let's not turn this into a GOP vs. Dem thing.
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Richard McRae
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03:48 PM on 10/20/2011
If you honestly think that christianity is not intrinsically or inherently homophobic, racist, or sexist then you have never studied christianity.
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22Keys
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04:17 PM on 10/20/2011
Do I really need to give a lecture about reading ancient texts in context? Christian origins was a key focus of my undergraduate study at U.C.L.A. If you would like, I would be more than willing to correspond further about these topics. However, I think it is important to remember that a lot of people have a spiritual drive, and instead of telling them to suppress that drive, we should make sure we do our housecleaning with the religions available to us (eliminating: racism, homophobia, sexism, etc).
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Richard McRae
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04:24 PM on 10/20/2011
I also studied the bible EXTENSIVELY while studying for the seminary. We can play all the word games we want, but for the last few thousand years the christian religion (to name one) has had as part of its canon racism, sexism, and homophobia. Let's not even get into islam or any of the other Abrahamic religions.
I'm not talking about people repressing their spirituality. I'm just always shocked at people who want to join an organization that has made an active point of repressing or harming them. I'd be just as amazed at a black man that wanted to join the KKK.
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22Keys
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04:42 PM on 10/20/2011
Many organizations that started out as bigoted, no longer are. Should I avoid watching the MLB because at one time they excluded blacks? No they have corrected their behavior. love the United States and I believe it to be a beautiful country. That does not mean that I am not ashamed of the sexism, racism, slavery, and all other manner of injustices that were sanctioned by the state at some time or another. I am not ignoring or attempting to forget the struggles of those before me. That does not mean we should throw the baby out with the bath water. Let's not ignore some of the more positive things the church seems to be doing (like pentecostalism in Latin America crushing sexist machismo). I think that we should move forward and be proud of what we are slowly becoming, a more tolerant society. I think we should welcome the church changing their ways. In 100 years there will not be hardly a church left that preaches against homosexuality.
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Richard McRae
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05:13 PM on 10/20/2011
I agree, and you're right that in 100 years people will look on the homophobes of our generation in the same way we look on the racists of 100 years ago.
But I'm STILL amazed that anyone would want to be a part of a group that hates them so much.
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Syllogizer
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06:18 PM on 10/20/2011
I don't believe you when you claim this extensive study. No one should believe you. Why? Because if you had really STUDIED it, you would have known better than to make the rash generalization you made. But you made it anyway. This proves beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt that what you did and called 'study' was no such thing.
How did you miss it? The same Bible that some interpreted as endorsing slavery inspired many to fight slavery, even to the extreme that John Brown went to. Do you really expect us to believe that your "extensive study" proved that the former were correct and the latter wrong?
Don't expect it, because we won't.
Then there is the way you completely missed what it was that REALLY pushed slavery over the edge and out of the civilized, modern social order: it was economic change. It no longer makes economic sense to rely on slavery for our labor supply, the (relatively) free labor market does MUCH better.
Did you really not know at all? The reason so many poor whites in the Northern States supported the war was NOT love of the downtrodden slaves, it was the economic fact that the mere existence of slavery was depressing their wages. The South was desperate to export their "peculiar institution" to every territory, because it was strangling their economy at home; but the export strangled the labor market for free men, which is why they fought back.
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Richard McRae
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07:59 PM on 10/20/2011
I'm sure it's very comfortable for you to believe that. But I studied the bible with the heart and spirit of someone who was in love with god, in love with the church, and in love with the bible. I studied it with the love of someone who wanted nothing more than to learn everything there was to learn about it so that I could share it with others.
It was through years and years of deep, intense study of not just the bible but of tons of supporting material that I started to realize just how horrible of a book it is. I realized that I believed in a loving, caring god - and that the god of the bible was nothing of the sort.
To quote Twain, it ain't the parts of the bible I don't understand that disturb me. It's the parts that I do.
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Coloradem
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03:20 PM on 10/20/2011
We shouldn't. Those of us who are religious (in my case, Christian), simply refuse to deny that part of ourselves that is spiritual simply because others want us to.
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Richard McRae
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03:29 PM on 10/20/2011
It's not about denying the spiritual side of you. I'm amazed that any member of the LGBT community would associate themselves with the two most homophobic groups in America, both of which have (and still do) actively work to limit or eliminate the rights of the LGBT community.
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Coloradem
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03:36 PM on 10/20/2011
What groups are those? The Christian church that I currently belong to actually advocates quite strongly for full inclusion of LGBT people in all aspects of society.
The bottom line is this, I'm not willing to allow fallable human beings to deny me a relationship with Christ---a relationship that I believe we both (Christ and I) want. I think to do so is quite stupid.
When did you relinquish your right to determine your faith to others? Do you do that with all aspect of your life or just this one?
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Richard McRae
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03:40 PM on 10/20/2011
That's good for your church, but it is FAR from the norm. If your church allows gay marriage, fights for gay rights, accepts that homosexuality is not a sin, and is comfortable with things like transgenderism, etc then great.
But you'd have to be willingly blind to not see that the church and the Republican party is CONSTANTLY at the forefront of any anti-LGBT movement. It's good your church is an exception - but it's still an exception.
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Coloradem
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05:33 PM on 10/20/2011
I don't disagree with you that my church is far from the norm within Christiandom (and, incidentally, they do all of the above).
Having said that, I still think that if one permits another person to dictate the terms of their relationship with their creator, they are making a huge mistake.
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GDWhiteman
Christian mystic iconoclast .
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05:50 PM on 10/20/2011
Change for the better often starts with being exceptional. Why Coloradem would choose to stay with something exceptionally good seems like a no-brainer to me. It's the hope (and wave) of the future.
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dmgoss
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03:48 PM on 10/20/2011
While I agree, I think it's more a case of institutional affiliation, rather than basic spirituality, which leads one to ask whether a church or social group that gathers around religious beliefs is actually necessary for anything other than instruction or community? Obviously, one's beliefs grow and become more nuanced from contact with like minded others, but if the members of that group hate you for an essential part of your person, why stay? Or continue to subscribe to the dogma that is likely the source of that hate?
I'm not a religious person, but I am a social one, and I understand the need for common cause and contact. But I also understand the cruelty and rejection any group is capable of. In this case, Martin Luther's ultimate goal of removing the church and its representatives as the necessary administrators of God's will has the feature of allowing the individual to pursue a relationship with their spirituality through a solitary reading of the bible.
Of course, Weber's response, that churches ultimately serve as communal entities that bind neighbors into a group identity necessary to social harmony, seems to trump the idea that mere belief is even the main issue when it comes to the power churches have over a population. Check how well Muslims are currently mainstreaming into American society for a great example of this.
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Coloradem
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03:58 PM on 10/20/2011
I see what you are saying and, to an extent, agree with you. I would certainly not stay with any group of people who hated me (or anyone else, for that matter) given that the Christ I follow instructs us to, "Love your neighbor as yourself". Hate is contrary to his command.
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Richard McRae
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05:47 PM on 10/20/2011
"Having said that, I still think that if one permits another person to dictate the terms of their relationship with their creator, they are making a huge mistake.”"
I agree 100%. Which is why I'm always so amazed when anyone from the LGBT succumbs to religion or Republicanism.
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Coloradem
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06:36 PM on 10/20/2011
You lost me. If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that LGBT people should not engage in any religion because some within religious communites claim that God/Allah/S-he who we call by many names doesn't like them. In other words, we should listen to those people (and those within the LGBT community who tell us that we don't need to engage in religious activities) and accept that we are not worthy of God's love?
You really shouldn't be surprised (or amazed) by the diversity or independent mindedness of those of us who are gay.
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Richard McRae
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08:02 PM on 10/20/2011
You keep saying that I've said the LGBT community SHOULDN'T be part of religion or a religious group. I've never said that. I've said that I'm SURPRISED they are. I don't think blacks shouldn't join the KKK. I'd just be surprised at the ones who wanted to.
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Coloradem
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10:21 AM on 10/21/2011
So now you're equating Methodist, members of the the United Church of Christ, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, etc.with the KKK? Well, given that those who killed Matthew Shepard were American, why would any gay person stay in America?
The bottom line is this: You have chosen to replace one bigotry (against gay people) with another (against religious people). Well, pick your poison, I guess.
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Richard McRae
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11:37 AM on 10/21/2011
But I'll tell you what - I'll continue supporting the LGBT community against unfair legislation and religious persecution.
You keep defending the church.
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Coloradem
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12:41 PM on 10/21/2011
I'll defend both against real enemies instead of looking for enemies where they don't exist.
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Richard McRae
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12:51 PM on 10/21/2011
Considering the great lengths you've gone through to make me an 'enemy' in this thread, I find that that statement incredibly ironic.
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Richard McRae
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12:58 PM on 10/21/2011
Also, if you think the church hasn't been an enemy of the LGBT community you definitely need to educate yourself both on LGBT history and the bible. To deny it is like saying that the South was never an enemy of black people.
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Coloradem
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01:29 PM on 10/21/2011
Actually saying "the South" was an enemy to black people is exactly as stupid as saying "the Church" is the enemy of gay people.
Black people were a part of the south, so your statement implies that black people were enemies of themselves. Were there elements of "the South" that treated black people horribly? Of course. Are there element of "the Church" that treat gays and lesbians horribly? Of course. "The South" is not a monolith though and neither is "the Church" and that is the fallacy of your argument.
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Richard McRae
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02:22 PM on 10/21/2011
Okay, I see where the issue is. You're having trouble grasping concepts if the details aren't nitpicked. You're not understanding a concept because we're not throwing out specific names, scenarios, and situations. So since you're just not getting it, I'll explain a little deeper:
Christianity (as one example) has consistently and repeatedly demonized and criminalized homosexuality. Even in today's current news if you look at any anti-LGBT legislation within the US you'll find it's virtually 100% of time either headed, funded, or supported by religious organizations. Sometimes they're christian. Sometimes they're not. What they all have in common is that they are RELIGIOUS-BASED and their objections are that homosexuality is immoral or unequal because of their RELIGIOUS BELIEFS.
Your church is an exception. WONDERFUL. But at the head of everything that eliminates or limits LGBT equality in this nation is one religious organization or another.
That's fine if you disagree. It's great that the members of the LGBT community who have been subjected to religious discrimination get to be told how wrong they are by their fellow LGBT members.
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Coloradem
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02:52 PM on 10/21/2011
No I really don't think you see where the issue is at all. The issue is simply this: You are attempting to apply blanket condemnations to people of faith based on the the worst actions by some members of the faith community. This is not unlike those bigotted members of the faith communities who attempt to categorize all members of the LGBT community based on the actions of "go-go boys dancing on floats at gay pride parades".
While it may be much simpler in the short run to try to live life sticking labels on people and them placing them into little boxes while coding them "good" or "bad", you are doing yourself and the LGBT community an extreme disservice in doing so.
Remember, Martin Luther King was a devout Christian and it was his faith that led him to do the great things that he did, yet in your little "box" you would put him in the "bad" category.
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Richard McRae
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04:01 PM on 10/21/2011
I'm not attempting to box anyone into a specific category. I'm also not basing my opinion on religion by the actions of only its worst members. I'm simply showing how things ARE, not how I THINK they are. I didn't decide to go on some vendetta against the church and blame them for all the evils in the world. What I did was notice a continuing and common trend in anti-LGBT movements.
Look at things like DADT, DOMA, the fight against marriage equality, the political arguments against equality for the LGBT community, etc, etc, etc, etc. This is historic, this is researchable, this is easy to prove if you just go do your homework.
Are you honestly telling me that in the fight for gay rights you're NOT fighting against religious bigotry? That you're NOT fighting against christian ideals? That you're NOT confronted with religious groups that use their religion as justification to limit rights for the LGBT community?
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Coloradem
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05:00 PM on 10/21/2011
I'm telling you that I am fighting against anti-gay bigotry, no matter the source...tradition, religion, misogeny and the "ick" factor to name a few. I am also fighting anti-Christian bigotry, no matter the source. I am not fighting Christian ideals at all....on the contrary, Chistian ideals were set by Christ very clearly in Mark: "Love your neighbor as yourself"....no exceptions....that is the ideal that I am fighting for.
As to DADT, DOMA, ENDA and the rest of the alphabet soup of gay rights (and discrimination) laws, I've been on the front line of these battles for the better part of the past 40 years and the opposition has had a strong base in the faith community. There are a significant number of religious leaders and people in the pews who are fighting on the other side of the issue as well. For every Pat Robertson there is a Rob Bell; for every Jerry Falwell there is a Mel White.
This isn't and either/or issue. It isn't one when Fred Phelps declares it so and it isn't one when you declare it so. And those of us who are Christian didn't "succumb" homosexuality any more than those of us who are gay "succumbed" to religion.
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Richard McRae
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05:22 PM on 10/21/2011
I agree that there are religious members fighting for LGBT rights. But those are new, they're the exception, and they're having to fight against their fellow religious members.
It's a good thing it's happening. It's a good thing the church is opening up. It's a good thing they're finally becoming accepting of homosexuality. But the very fact that it IS a fight and that they ARE the minority means that religion is still more anti-homosexuality than pro-homosexuality.
I never said you were fighting christian ideals. Most christians don't follow christian ideals. I said you were fighting religion. Big huge difference. One of homosexuality's biggest hurdle is gaining universal acceptance in the religious community. Just look at countries that have very low religious populations and you can see the inverse relationship of religion and acceptance of homosexuality.
Yes of COURSE there are examples of people and churches fighting for gay rights. There always has been and there always will be people who can see past the bigotry. But if you can't use a few bad examples as an indication of the whole, you can't use a few good ones either.
Most religions have always fought against LGBT rights. The Abrahamic religions most notably. You can't in all honesty say that religion as a whole is supportive of the LGBT community and LGBT rights.
Well you can say it I suppose - you can even try to convince others of it, but then you'd have to change your name to Colorarepub.
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el sistema
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04:00 PM on 10/20/2011
Superstition isn't prejudice.
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Richard McRae
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04:04 PM on 10/20/2011
But the superstitious and religious usually are. And christianity as a whole is one of the most homophobic groups in the US. Religion as a whole is one of the most homophobic in the world.
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el sistema
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04:16 PM on 10/20/2011
They also have the most sects. So many denominations within Christianity I am sure they could find one or two sects they'd enjoy.
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Syllogizer
Barely Left of Pobedonostsev .
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06:19 PM on 10/20/2011
You are showing the really deep prejudice yourself when you claim " the superstitious and religious usually are [prejudiced?]".
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Richard McRae
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08:00 PM on 10/20/2011
Nah, I'm speaking from countless examples and experience throughout history. If you look at every anti-LGBT movement or legislation it is invariable fronted by a religious group.
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felliott
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12:47 AM on 10/21/2011
Superstition is prejudice compounded with cowardice and stupidity.
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Coloradem
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10:24 AM on 10/21/2011
Actually prejudice, be it against gay people or religous people, is cowardice coupled with stupidity.
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felliott
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11:49 AM on 10/21/2011
Is all religion superstition?
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Coloradem
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12:39 PM on 10/21/2011
Depends on who you ask. So in the most broad sense, yes, every religion is considered supersitition by some people.
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eric0063
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02:22 PM on 10/20/2011
But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3)
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Grada3784
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03:32 PM on 10/20/2011
For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness,
This is something new? Seems like the last days Timothy was talking about have been forever.
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Bill J4321
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04:14 PM on 10/20/2011
Next time you talk to him, can you ask him to push up the rapture date so I can finally get some peace and quiet down here.
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eric0063
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51 Fans
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04:38 PM on 10/20/2011
Well, according to the prophecies, it'll probably get noisier, not quieter, after that event. How bout a nice set of ear plugs?
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eddy joe
welcome to the machine .
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04:38 PM on 10/20/2011
Nice post. It's good to see the truth .
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Varys
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05:06 PM on 10/20/2011
So, men will behave exactly the same during the "last days" as they have for the last few thousand years?
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GDWhiteman
Christian mystic iconoclast .
818 Fans
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06:01 PM on 10/20/2011
"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness" - A) that isn't God talking, it's whoever forged 2 Tim under Paul's name B) I don't see anything suggesting limitation to a canon selected by one faction or any time frame for the scripture to have been written. And frankly, I see many of those predicted things happening right now chiefly among the most loudest Bible thumpers.
Using scripture to infer (false) accusations of others before someone points a finger at the accuser is one of the oldest and sleaziest rhetorical tools of the religions "orthodox". What a pity more folks aren't able to see thru that scam.
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Syllogizer
Barely Left of Pobedonostsev .
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06:21 PM on 10/20/2011
It isn't always a scam. That is why people don't "see thru" what you THINK you see through.
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GDWhiteman
Christian mystic iconoclast .
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06:30 PM on 10/20/2011
No, not always - but far more often than not.
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eric0063
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06:40 PM on 10/20/2011
What accusation was there? I simply quoted a few verses from 2 Timothy.
What amazes me, however, is that so many people believe in a 'god' who could not get us his word if he chose to. A god who has no standards of right and wrong higher than what we think is right and wrong. A god who would never want us wise humans to go against our self willed nature. A god who thinks that our personal earthly happiness is the ultimate goal of creation. A god who speaks only to people's hearts without offering any standards for verification. A god who would have no need of purity or personal accountability.
You may choose to deny the God of the Bible, you can say you believe in Jesus and that He is part of your life, but these don't mix. Jesus believes in the OT scriptures, said it was those scriptures that are written of Him. Jesus doesn't stand apart from the law, He established the law, then asks "why do you call me Lord Lord and don't do what I say?"
Paul writes in Romans 3: "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin... Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law."
(yes, the law is referring to the OT scriptures, wherein all moral laws are codified)
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GDWhiteman
Christian mystic iconoclast .
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07:29 PM on 10/20/2011
"Jesus believes in the OT scriptures" - except, of course, where he directly contradicts them.
Who knows what the thorn in Paul's side was? All we can tell for certain is that he struggled mightily with what he believed was sins of the flesh. Pretty arrogant of him to make the assumption that everyone's like him. But then "projection" is a well established principle of human psychology when dealing with people we know little or nothing about.
I have little doubt that those laws against harming others clearly violate loving your neighbor as yourself. However, when it comes to various holiness codes established for a nomadic Iron Age tribal society, I seriously doubt that God gives a hoot one way or the other about much of OT law. I think overboard assumptions are made when it comes to what law Jesus is talking about.
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GDWhiteman
Christian mystic iconoclast .
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07:30 PM on 10/20/2011
"Deny the God of the Bible"? Which one? i.e. Which interpretation? With or without a hermeneutic system designed to affirm one flavor of Christianity as "orthodox"? Need I go on? Many choices. Yours is THE correct one? Says who? Don't tell me "the Bible". Others read the same words and come to vastly different conclusions.
If you feel convicted of sin, do what you must. Those among us who long ago confessed, know we're forgiven, and have moved on to life really don't need you pointing fingers. What WAS that scripture??? Oh, yeah - "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone". Another scripture where people miss the point (even though it was inserted later - another interesting edit of "God's Word") - everybody gets that they're not supposed to throw stones. What almost everyone misses is that the guy who everyone agrees is qualified to throw stones does not. No statement of belief required. No punishment. Just "Go and sin no more". God's justice is restorative, not punitive.
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eric0063
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07:50 PM on 10/20/2011
I will give you credit for your firmness of belief. A lot of people don't know why they believe what they believe. I don't see you as one of those.
Clearly we have huge difference in our views of the Bible. Perhaps in time I will come to understand yours better, and perhaps you mine. I am not idle in my study of both the new or old testaments, and the deeper I dig the more convinced I am of it's authenticity and application to us today. I am certainly flawed in many ways of how I understand it, but for me the authorship is always strengthened the deeper I get.
God's justice is not restorative. His grace and mercy, absolutely. But God's justice can be a fearsome and terrible thing. It is God's justice that sent Jesus to the cross in our stead (I think that is one thing we agree on). Under God's justice we all would stand condemned. His mercy and grace are what draw us to Him, that instills in us a longing to please Him.
Regarding the casting the first stone event, if you study it closely, Jesus knew it was a trap. They completely violated the rules of the TORH in even bringing her to Jesus. First, where was the man? Second, according the the TORH they had to present 2 witnesses (who were not present). Everything about the event was meant to trap Jesus, he was judging their hypocrisy, not the law.
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GDWhiteman
Christian mystic iconoclast .
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08:12 PM on 10/20/2011
It sounds like the notion of restorative justice seems like an oxymoron or paradox to you. You might chew on that a little - like until you see that it only seems paradoxical until your perspective aligns with God.
We agree that God sent Jesus to the cross. Where we disagree is between "in our stead" and "on our behalf". (that's a punitive perspective vs restorative)
Yes, the stone thing - he knew it was a trap - and handled it well. But it escapes almost everyone's notice how Jesus acts after all the others are gone. The law says she should be stoned. He's without sin. Jesus fulfills the law without needing punishment.
Grace: a personal story - I was in a study group with some folks who know my personal history. The workbook for the study asked, "Do you think God's grace is a powerful force? Why?" A couple of folks gave nice, doctrine-correct Christian answers. Then it was my turn. My reply: "Yes. It changed me." Given the groups knowledge of the old me and the new man, that discussion was over. It was as clear to them as it is to me that God's grace is an awesome force indeed.
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GDWhiteman
Christian mystic iconoclast .
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08:21 PM on 10/20/2011
I attended a men's breakfast at another church this morning. The guest speaker was Michael Franzese - a former mafia boss from a cosa nostra family. He has an awesome testimony of God's restoration - a very real, raw description of an actual relationship with Christ as a follower. I don't know that he mentioned "belief" much at all and pretty much said to the attendees, "What denomination you are doesn't matter in what we're talking about here." Following and relationship vs belief and religion. Many of the men there are religious. Most if not all would call themselves "believer". It was clear that his story spoke to them. He's living what they claim we desire as Christians. He was a very sinful man, and he's not shy about it. He admits that he's still not perfect, but he's focused on God's will instead of sin. A lot of men in that room would love to trade places with him. I enjoyed it because I am him. Not NY mafia, but my story is very similar in many ways - down to and including the woman he married as my wife is for me. It was like watching myself talk to men who need to learn to admit their sins, accept forgiveness, and plunge into willingness to be transformed.
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GDWhiteman
Christian mystic iconoclast .
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08:43 PM on 10/20/2011
This whole thing - it's not about our failures. It's about God's success. Where we've been... it is what it is - first and foremost, not changeable. Confess, receive forgiveness (you'll know you've received it when you quit asking for it over the same old things again and again), and embrace life - abundant life. We're called human beings for a reason - note: we are not "human doings". BE a word holding your truth. Not how do you behave or what you say. Who are you? (when you don't think anyone is watching).
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GDWhiteman
Christian mystic iconoclast .
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09:45 PM on 10/20/2011
Does it make any sense to you that allowing transformation to that the desire of your heart aligns with God is all the repudiation of your sin the God requires? When you have let go of your love of a sin and taken God's loving view of him and others, what could be stronger than that? I'm not talking about outward behavior here - I'm talking about the essence of who you are - what you truly desire in your heart of hearts without coercion.
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eric0063
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12:39 PM on 10/21/2011
Search out the word "justice" and in most cases (in both the OT & NT) it implies judgement or vengeance. It can also mean what is right. Jesus set the bar for being right pretty high: looking at a woman with lust is the same as adultery; love your enemies and do good to them; merely calling someone a fool it tantamount to murder. Who can meet those standards? And you want justice?
You mention letting go of our love of sin and aligning our desire of our hearts with God's. That requires a measurement of what sin is, of what God desires. Feelings can not be the measure, for our old nature is always at war with our new nature. Jeremiah 17:9 says The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?" There must be a firm standard for comparison.
Everyone believes in something, so we're all believers. But in what do we believe? It is about relationship, but faith also. Belief is an intellectual ascent something is true, faith is the operative trust in that truth. What do you put your faith in is the real issue.
One last note: When Jesus said he did not judge the woman caught in adultery, what else did he say? "Go and sin no more." Did he really expect her never to fall short again? Or was it a call out of what she wanted into what God desires for us?
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CMR64
u hurt my feeling .
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05:58 AM on 10/21/2011
the whole problem with the above passage is the last sentence...so you are in favor of the death penalty for gays?
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eric0063
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11:41 AM on 10/21/2011
CMR64... short answer is no.
Longer answer is that since we are not under the law, the penalty of the law is not in force. Does that mean the law against homosexuality is abolished? Or coveting? Or lying? Or stealing? No, the law is there for us today to enable us to illuminate our sin nature, to enable us to discern right from wrong. Or as the last sentence in the passage, it is there for us today to teach us and correct our wrong ways of thinking.
I am not homophobic, I don't hate homosexuals. Their sin is no worse than my sin. The question is, do we embrace and empower our sin nature? Or do we see it for what it is and strive to live a life that is honoring to God, rather than honoring ourselves and our desires?
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CMR64
u hurt my feeling .
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05:43 AM on 10/25/2011
I am sorry if you subscribe to the belief that homosexuality is a sin and ALL SCRIPTURE is useful to correct and reproof paraphrasing Paul...then you believe that homosexuals are to be stoned. That slaves are to be owned and women should keep their place.
I embrace my sexuality simply because I love God ..I would never ever tell Him that He was wrong in making me ...
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eric0063
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11:06 AM on 10/25/2011
You miss the point. The Bible says all scripture is useful for correction and reproof. If you believe the Bible that's a very simple straightforward statement. It also says we are not judged (under the penalty) of the law. Good thing too, imagine if we stoned every disobedient child... population control would cease to be an issue.
Christians are not 'under' the law, but the law still exists to illuminate sin. Here is where many say it's a sin to eat shrimp and wear polyester. Wrong, civil and ceremonial laws were for Judaism. Moral laws were not abolished. The penalty under Judaism is absolved, but not the laws themselves.
God is not wrong in making any person. But every person is born with a sin nature. Just because we feel something is right, using the argument that this is how God made me can be used to justify any action.
My 'sexuality' compels me to be an adulterer... no better, no worse, than homosexuality. Because I'm made this way, does that make it right?
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CMR64
u hurt my feeling .
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05:45 PM on 10/25/2011
you can't have it both ways....either you believe what the Bible says ALL scripture or don't ...you are guiltily of picking and choosing as much as homosexuals ....I was born gay you cannot dispute what I experienced based on your presumptions. The issue is the same as it was with slavery ...period...
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Willie12345
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09:28 AM on 10/21/2011
Well said.
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buddha65
The night is my companion and solitude my guide .
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12:44 PM on 10/24/2011
What about us women?
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eric0063
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01:43 PM on 10/24/2011
Being a man myself, I think I gotta admit that women are exempt from much of the male gender's inherent foolishness. But in the context of the above I think it's referring to 'mankind', or in the current vernacular 'humankind'.
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Gay Iberian
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02:10 PM on 10/20/2011
None of the LGBT religious leaders are inspiring . Religion is not an inspiring organization, but rather a dangerous organization with false beliefs and false gods and fraught with corruption, sexual abuses and moral and intellectual oppression.
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iknowscottyknows
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02:34 PM on 10/20/2011
I think you're confusing "Religion" with the DNC.
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el sistema
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04:07 PM on 10/20/2011
The majority of evangelical fundamentalists identify themselves as republicans.
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Syllogizer
Barely Left of Pobedonostsev .
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06:22 PM on 10/20/2011
True. But that is not just because of a natural affinity between them, but because the Democrats have gone out of their way to alienate LOTS of Christians, not just "evangelical fundamentalists" with their endorsement of abortion and "gay marriage".
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AdamWest1313
Hardcore Agnostic .
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08:32 PM on 10/20/2011
There are more Christian Democrats then there are Atheist democrats.
Nice try though.
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Coloradem
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03:13 PM on 10/20/2011
The brush you are painting with is a bit broad. Religion is not a single organization. You should not judge all "religions" based on your personal experience any more than you would judge all caucasian people based on your experience with one caucasian person.
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felliott
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129 Fans
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12:52 AM on 10/21/2011
Religions aren't people. They're ideologies. Moreover, religion is not like race since religion is unquestionably a choice and certainly is mutable. Therefore, religious rights should not be subject to the same scrutiny as rights based on immutable characteristics.
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Coloradem
Christian, Gay, Democrat .
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10:11 AM on 10/21/2011
Perhaps caucasian wasn't the best example. Let's try this: You shouldn't judge all police officers based on an experience you have with one police officer.
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Not All Spanish Are Thrilled With Papa Francisco
Inspiring LGBT Religious Leaders
By Paul Brandeis Raushenbush Posted: 10/20/2011 1:45 pm EDT | Updated: 09/04/2013 12:21 pm EDT
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Reflecting and shaping the culture in which it is embedded, religion has historically been hostile to LGBT-identified people and communities. However, over the last three decades more denominations, congregations and individuals have come out in support of honoring the full humanity of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered people. Today, hundreds, if not thousands, of religious communities are truly places of celebration, healing and hope for all people.
This initial list of 15 ground breaking individuals is just a sampling of the many LGBT religious leaders who have reclaimed religious traditions and communities. We hope that you will use the feature on this slideshow to add gay religious leaders who you feel should be included. Meanwhile, we thankfully acknowledge the ongoing contributions of these inspiring religious leaders.
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Most Inspiring LGBT Religious Leaders
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by Taboola
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Rev. Dr. Mark Achtemeier
Rev. Dr. Mark Achtemeier: Coming Out as an Evangelical Supporter of Gay Rights
When I was ordained in 1984 I believed that gay and lesbian people could become "normal" through repentance and prayer. But in the last decade, I began to discover that God had other plans.
Chely Wright
Chely Wright: Confessions of a Gay Christian Country Singer
The very root of who I am and the core of what Country Music seems to be about is honesty, openness and accessibility. But I had to close myself off in order to survive.
Rev. Patrick S. Cheng, Ph.D.
Rev. Patrick S. Cheng, Ph.D.: What Was the Real Sin of Sodom?
The true sin of the Sodomites as described in the Bible has nothing to do with same-sex acts per se. Rather, the ancient Sodomites were punished by God for a far greater sins: radical inhospitality.
Rev. Patrick S. Cheng, Ph.D.
Rev. Patrick S. Cheng, Ph.D.: "Love The Sinner, Hate The Sin" And Other Modern-Day Heresies
I believe those Christians who "hate" LGBT sexualities and gender expressions while allegedly "loving" LGBT people are nothing more than modern-day gnostics, who were condemned as heretical by early Church theologians.
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iknowscottyknows
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06:49 PM on 10/20/2011
Enjoy the little limelight you have while you can.
"As for man, his days are as grass, like the flower of the field so he flourishes. Then the wind passes over and it is gone, and the place thereof knows it no more." Psalm 103:15
"It is appointed once for a man to die, then the judgment." Hebrews 9:27
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Lucy0808
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11:43 PM on 10/20/2011
"Limelight"? Huh?
"Life" is the word. A powerful word, indeed.
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phyrro
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02:23 AM on 10/21/2011
Leave the "then the judgment" out and your on to something.
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ashiraladonai777
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02:55 PM on 10/23/2011
I take it you don't like that word, "judgment". But you do realize that your comment IS itself a judment. God is the Ultimate Judge. We all will stand before Him one day.
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Challlie
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11:03 PM on 10/23/2011
your comment is itself a judgment. the ultimate judge does not need a peanut gallery.
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yeshuachrist
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06:44 PM on 10/20/2011
The church is supposed to be "in" the world, not "of" the world. Yeshua's teachings are not easy to follow, they do not include adhering to the respect of persons, you treat people with righteousness, and love, but love doesn't include appeasement of someones iniquities. There is a major sea change in the world with regard to how people view G-D. They have lost their fear of him as the fear of G-D is only understood as the fear of retribution, which is misguided. We only focus on the love of Christ, not his teaching's. No person deserves to be persecuted, all people should be treated with general respect but the church ceases being a church once they begin "accepting" iniquity because they want to be "accepted" in this world.
http://www.yahwehyeshua.com
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Lucy0808
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11:46 PM on 10/20/2011
Love. All there is, is love. Love thy neighbor. Turn the other cheek. Help the least among us. Love.
It is not about the "church". It has never been.
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ashiraladonai777
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02:46 PM on 10/23/2011
God is love. As such, He alone has the right to tell us how true love is defined as He'd wired us in His image. But people being what they are have redefined love to suit themselves. Storge, Phileo, Eros, & Agape...It seems like people have gotten fixated on the Eros part & twisted it to suit an agenda anymore when even that part had a design & purpose.
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Lucy0808
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02:55 PM on 10/23/2011
For people who don't understand science, sometimes they make things up or make statements out of their lack of knowledge. Your post was in that regard.
What is meant when people say that science is objective, is the fact of the process which includes methods for inquiry, peer review, and the institution globally of highly educated and peer accepted scientists, funding apparatus and place of science record and exchange. Your example of a mistake somewhere is besides the point. It isn't even helpful. The point being the process weeds out the mistakes, or the incorrect hypotheses, or the silliness. That is so minor as to be off topic on the subject. The redundancy of science and the orthagonal inquiry, as well as peer review, screens out the junk for the most part or makes it part of the noise because the good work and the correct and repeatable work, and that which is supported by orthagonal methods overwhelmingly is in more numerous studies and by more numerous scientists, and has been "peer reviewed". This makes it a far more objective process by scientific method, peer review, and that scientists no matter where they come from in place and time, culture/religion/economic strata/and language can repeat the work(under the same criteria) or they can't and then it goes to the trash bin. This is the opposite of subjective reality put forth by religious people that can't be tested or affirmed in that same regard.
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phyrro
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02:41 AM on 10/21/2011
You must so be terrified of G-D that you can't even spell his name out or maybe you ran out of "o"s. I can send you some in fact here are bunch of them.
o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o and some capital ones also O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O O if you run out I got plenty more.
From your enclosed email address it appears you have no problem with YAHW-H. I personally am terrified of him and could never spell him YAHWEH. Oh No. Now I've gone and done it.
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TomMartin
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04:41 AM on 10/21/2011
Don't forget that the word God, which you spell G-D, is of pagan origin, not Christian or Jewish.
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Willie12345
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09:23 AM on 10/21/2011
Well said.
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detroitblkmale30
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10:17 AM on 10/21/2011
I couldnt have said it any better. The other repliers have to rely on a twisting on the scriptures to justify their views. There is more to the word of God than just love, there is accountability and obedience.
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Lucy0808
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04:52 PM on 10/21/2011
The whole point of the way of love is to bypass the small minded trapping of rules for the sake of rules. The whole point is to see the world with compassion and act within it.
Your focus on accountability "punishment" or "heaven reward" is counter to creating an open heart. It is the positioning of a Homo Sapien over another Homo Sapien. In otherwords, it is pure Homo Sapien behavior of rulership.
Gods that are obsessed over human sexual organs aren't really gods or a god. It is a projection of Homo Sapien subjective perception of themselves. It is our human biology and fundamental behavior exibited by our human brain-mind. If an alien was observing us, it would be crystal clear, but it "we" that have a difficult time recognizing ourselves in our gods.
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detroitblkmale30
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10:32 PM on 10/21/2011
The whole point of love however is NOT to bypass God's word. If that were the case any sin any action would be allowable as long as "love" is concerned. You could make a justification for any sin using love as a motivation. The whole point is to usher in forgiveness and grace. When you love someone you honor what they say, in this case God's word.
No one can have an open heart without being open to every whim. No it doesnt position one person over another, it KEEPS God ahead of mankind. Your position places mankind over God. God isnt obsessed with human organs, that is one of many sins which include far more than sexual organs.
Alien? you are drifting off the deep end. It doesnt really even matter though since you are not a Christian, we arent even debating on the same plane.
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Lucy0808
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01:42 AM on 10/22/2011
Not at all.
My opinion is that your gods are a figment of your subjective mind. That is it.
The rest of your post is your subjective belief. Only that. That is my opinion and since there is no proof of your gods, it is a reasoned opinion.
Your idea of sin is uniquely biological for our species. It is strange to make that some type of sin rules dictated by a sexual organ obsessed deity. However, I understand that is your belief. Homo Sapiens have a history with over many thousands of gods. Are you saying only your is real and all of the thousands upon thousands of other gods are not?
Compassion, forgiveness and helping the least among us is the way. It is sad that you are obsessed with Homo Sapien shariah. Some are and miss the whole way of being with an open heart and mind.
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detroitblkmale30
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08:19 AM on 10/22/2011
You are welcome to your opinion. Its wrong, but you are welcome to it. It is not an "opinion" That is something inate to my mind without any other grounds for belief. Clearly I have other grounds for belief. Once again it is your opinion that God is obsessed with sex organs, that is but ONE of dozens of concepts that God focuses on. He is obsessed with all aspects of the lives of his creations. Yes I am saying mine is real, and that is definitely within the realm of possibility.
You are the one obsessed with "homo sapien" whatever you keep using it. You speak like an alien. Are you not a human being too? I have an open heart, I just dont believe that my faith calls me to have an open mind to the extent that I believe whatever popular opinion says. What's the point of even having a faith then?
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Lucy0808
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02:01 AM on 10/22/2011
My belief is that you have a monkey god. A primate god. A Homo Sapien god. Everything about it smell, sounds, and has the behavior of a Homo Sapien with super powers. Like the historic thousands upon thousands of gods. They are all Homo Sapien projections. Is that surprising? Hardly. We don't have kitty gods or snake gods or insect gods. We don't have plant gods. Our gods are uniquely human. Same thinking patters. Same biological emotions. Same obsession with our biology and sexual organs and contact. Support of slavery and subjugation of women. What food to eat. What cloth to wear. Avoidance of sex during women's menstrual cycle. Hopefully, humans can grow up and recognize themselves in their gods. With the tools of reason and science it is apparent to such a high level that one must practice daily cognitive dissonance to deny it. As the reality outside us is explained more and more, and the subjective reality explained for our inner machinations (consciousness, memory, language, ethics/morals, feelings of other people around us, feelings of spirits and gods). All explained by simple constructs by our brain-mind for the purpose of utility as a social primate.
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detroitblkmale30
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08:26 AM on 10/22/2011
LOL My belief is that your opinion with all of its attempted disparagement is growing increasingly comical. Monkey god? LOL Ok whatever you say. There is a difference between Christianity and all of the other ancient and non-existent religons. They are non existent. We also dont have monkey gods..thank you for playing. Next. You are really obsessed with this ONE aspect of what God had to say so much so that you categorize him simply by that which of course is blatantly obtuse and ignorant.
You also clealry dont understand the various theological concepts that existed at different times within the Bible. Everything was for a reason, but everything is not applied to present day. Wrong again the more science reveals about mankind the mroe we see that for example we are "hardwired" for such a spiritual connection. Wonder who hard wired us? hmmmmm The notion that we consciencously invented God for no reason on our own isnt the case.
Again there is no point in us debating such issue at least not on a Christian level as you have no belief in it. I wonder why with all of your derisions that you even bother to follow your Jeffersonian "Jesus" Afterall if you are so reasonable enlightened you wouldn't "need" him at all.
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Lucy0808
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11:52 AM on 10/22/2011
It is not a question of "popular opinion". Just science which is far more objective than the minds of imaginative Homo Sapiens.
I am correct. However, I do believe that you believe in your subjective mind. Never said I didn't. You aren't reading with comprehension, unfortunately.
There is not any objective proof of gods. Thus far, that is. This is hardly a secret. It is known.
I left Christianity after decades and I do know about what it is. You have your god. There have been thousands upon thousands of gods in our human, Homo Sapien, history. All of them were true in a subjective imagined preceived world. I never doubted it. Yours, too.
Yes, your god is obsessed with sexual organs, sex, and other Homo Sapien biology and biological behavior. Uniquely so. This is because it is a projection of a Homo Sapien mind. The behavior is unique to a primate and a primate of our species. That is interesting enough in and of itself. You can't even recognize the mirror before you. Some religions like Buddhism do recognize this simplistic Homo Sapien mirror. Christians don't.
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detroitblkmale30
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09:36 PM on 10/22/2011
science is irrelevant in matters of theological context. This isnt about objectivity its about divine supernatural context which is beyond the context of science.
I am reading with clear comprehension you are not correct. You again, are welcome to your incorrect opinion. I never said there was proof of God, you state the obvious for someone reason.
So simply because there have been thousands of gods in human history thus the Christian God must be false?? That makes no sense. Its a subjective opinion. Nothing more. You cannot definitively say that the Christian God does not exist. That too is a fact. All you have to offer are musings about other unrelated gods that is irrelevant in this context.
No my God is NOT obsessed with sexual organs. lol That is merely the context of this discussion. Does theft or murder involve sexual organs? or any of the other non sex related admonitions in Christianity? You beat a dead horse. I see the mirror clearly you are blinded by your repetitious obession with the phrase "homo sapien" Cant you just say human being? Give it up already, its not working.
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ashiraladonai777
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02:41 PM on 10/23/2011
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree that science is "objective". To refute that comment, I need to point out that there have been w/in the last 2-4 yrs in the news examples of people who've "tinkered" w/ data on some very high-profile stories that were tendentiously written so as to promote a particular view of science so as to sway popular opinion in favor of said experimentation, but later on it was found that the research data had been falsified. I can agree that data can in fact be neutral if it's truly the object to follow where it leads, but in this case, the course had already been predetermined--dishonestly so.
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Lucy0808
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12:03 PM on 10/22/2011
Your post is in error: "..."hardwired" for such a spiritual connection. Wonder who hard wired us?". First, you misunderstand the science. Humans are social animals. Social primates and immensely so. Their minds are arranged to create perceptions of other humans. Our brains are "wired" to perceive and make simple constructs with utility that allow us to predict the behavior of other human beings in our group. This has been shown by neuroscience studies. The mapping of how this is done does exist. We perceive other humans through these perceived constructs. We don't really perceive them for what they are. Just a simple representation for utility purposes. Evolution was severe and our human social behavior had huge evolutionary advantage (food gathering, hunting, educating, taking care of babies and the ill), passing down information. The same mechanisms that are used to perceive the "other" and create and artificial construct are used for perception of self and self awareness.We don't really perceive ourselves, but only a simplified construct (which changes all the time) for utility purposes. It is the exact same wiring and not any special wiring. The same wiring is used to perceive and give purposed objectives to inanimate objects outside oneself (thunder, earthquakes, diseases, floods) and "feel" that these are caused by purpose driven entitites. Same exact wiring. Attributes from our most basic social wiring had the consequences of making objective driven inanimate objects be spirits of purpose even though they don't exist.
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detroitblkmale30
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09:38 PM on 10/22/2011
No I do not misunderstand the science. When scientists themselves who know far more than you or I suggest this hardwiring may indeed have spiritual ramifications it is not I, but you who are in error.
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Lucy0808
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10:11 PM on 10/22/2011
You absolutely misunderstand the science.
Your post is in error:“..I don't misunderstand the science... .”
The idea of spirt to your is one of gods that are separate from the human species and separate from a human being. It's false.The science only show the subjectivity of constructs created by human brain-minds. What this means is that we are social creatures. We create in our minds, the subjective construct of a perceived "other" human being or other creature and that construct is truncated but sufficient for utility to predict the behavior of "the other". We are social primate animals and this is our social behavior. It's not even fully representative, but only enough to be useful for perceived intention. The same exact brain-mind pathways and mapping are used by us for our sense of self. It is truncated and not fully representative. It isn't even representative as reality. It's only enough for utility. It changes constantly from the past with many versions. It is a subjective construct, a ventriloquist act to give a sense of the "other" or ourselves. The same machinery of the brain-mind is used for inanimate objects (thunder, floods, lightening, diseases, whatever) to give a subjective construct of purpose and behavior. Like a puppy without a body, we create a perceived subjective and totally imagined construct of a spirit that doesn't exist.The same machinery of the brain for all of it. The same mechanisms. You are lost in the machine.
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detroitblkmale30
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10:41 PM on 10/22/2011
NO, I do not. What it means, as said by the science is that our minds and brains are naturally inclined to either believe in or create the notion of God. This isnt social behavior. It is representative of not only our reality but the reality of the world and universe around us. Now religions may change and come and go based upon the time the people the beliefs etc, but that neither changes the scientific reality of our minds nor does it alter the possiblity that the Christian God does indeed exisit. You cannot say he does not definitively. You can only suppose he doesnt. The deeper question then is why do we have this hard wiring and where does it come from? Why arent we hardwired for only scientific or purely rational, within the bounds of nature thought? hmmmm Even you cannot answer that question. You are are lost in the machine of denial.
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Lucy0808
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10:55 PM on 10/22/2011
As I said, you don't understand the science of neurscience concerning the human brain-mind. I am absolutely correct that it is using the same machinery as that used for social perception of the "other". This is known in our field. It is the same machinery used for perception of "self" and creating a truncated version of self just like a truncated version of the "other" homo sapien. The difference is that we have more information about self. For gods/spirits or any disembodied and inanimate object, it is the same. we look for purpose driven constructs and make them up on the fly. Our minds do this naturally for the "other"humans, for ourselves, and for the inanimate things that go bump in the night of flash lightning or cause floods, etc.. It is based on the same brain-mind machinery of looking for those things that are objective driven and for utility's sake predicting the behavior of such. We are a social animal, the most social of all. Our survival depends on defining the other and predicting its behavior, and cooperating. Studies have been done that support this. New studies are being used from what has been learned to model on computers. It is all truncated constructs of the other, self, and disembodied bumpy things. None of it is real. Only enough information to be useful and predictive. Even the self construct changes over time and there are multiple ones.Buddhism describes this. Science describes it.
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Saijanai
Micro bio? We don't need no stinkin' micro bio... .
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12:51 AM on 10/23/2011
I don't necessarily disagree with what you say, but I suspect it is more complicated than current research suggests.
All of the research you refer to has been done on abnormal, that is to say, non-enlightened, brains. The most commonly studied meditation practices these days yield radically different EEG patterns than TM and the "enlightenment" EEG signature of TM theory turns out to be the pure consciousness signature during TM superimposed on normal waking, dreaming and sleeping patterns.
TM theory predicts higher states, named in the Yoga Sutras as "god consciousness" and "unity consciousness," and says that they don't occur until after the first stage of enlightenment is manifest.
One can easily claim that one is seeing a god or gods, or that a person is "one with the universe," but TM theory says that the objective criteria for those claims is the ability to perform any and all of the sidhis, at will. There's no documented cases of anyone, TMing, or otherwise, who can float around the room, even for an instant, letalone "at will," so extrapolating what the physiological correlates of such exalted states would be like is premature, at best.
Of course, it may be that TM theory is wrong and that no-one has ever floated or ever will, etc., but still, I wouldn't presume that you know what "real" communion with God looks like, physiologically speaking.
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detroitblkmale30
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09:56 AM on 10/23/2011
As I said I do understand it and disagree with what you have said as does the other poster.Repeating it doesnt make me agree with you anymore. I don't agree with your take on it. You are in no position of course to say whether its real or not definitively as science hasnt arrived at that answer, its merely your biased opinion. Being a social animal still doesnt explain the "wired" leaning for God, only the leanings toward human to human contact. There are plenty of links I'd be happy to share with you for your further understanding.
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Lucy0808
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11:39 AM on 10/23/2011
Saijanai, your post "All of the research you refer to has been done on abnormal... brains." For the last 20yrs, neuroscience studies have made great progress in this regard, but it's early as science goes. However, it doesn't negate the studies done which have been poignant and informative. You are incorrect that all of the studies are on diseased or damaged individuals. I think you know this if your thought of it. Perception "intention" mapping has been routinely done on well people, and of course on ill people. Your post focused only on consciousness which is just one part of the problem. My post was about how subjective constructs of "perceived and objective driven others" is created by the human brain-mind. Certainly consciousness is how we become aware of these constructs. However, how the constructs are made and from what is important. For what purpose is important.That they are generally the same for mapping and creating constructs of "other human minds with perceived intentions" as well as one's own construct of self (with perceived intentions) is interesting and makes sense since the body reuses and adapts what exists and doesn't usually make brand new things. The same brain-mind machinery is used for mapping and creating constructs of a perceived intention (in this case false intentions)of inanimate objects or ethereal imagined ones.
Your Tm description is about something else. A different topic but certainly would be integrated in the subject matter. I see no conflict.
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Saijanai
Micro bio? We don't need no stinkin' micro bio... .
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12:49 PM on 10/23/2011
"You are incorrect that all of the studies are on diseased or damaged individuals."
You missed my point. ALL research in neuroscience, by TM theory, has been done on less than healthy individuals. The TM definition of "normal" is "enlightened."
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02:46 PM on 10/23/2011
Mr Saiganai, your post misunderstands. You posted to my posts and entered the conversation on a topic. As I said, I have no argument with your post, but your post was off the topic I was posting on. My posts stand for the topic I was discussing. That is it. Yes, on the topics I was discussing there is a great amount of data using normal healthy subjects as well as studies based on those that have had trauma to their brain, have new diseases, or genetic disease(or suspected so), like autism.
I was talking about mapped constructs of the mind of others "as intentioned minds". Homo Sapiens are extremely social creatures with well developed language and also the ability to make in their minds representations of "others' mindsand intentions". This creates feelings of minds of others outside oneself for purposes of utility. The constructs are simple and made up. The same machinery maps "self" as a made up construct. This is hardly knew material and represents near 20 yrs of work. The same machinery mapps constructs of intentioned others that don't even exist, such as inanimate objects, spirits, ghosts, and Olympian gods. It is the same machinery. The constructs aren't for reasoning, but for a sense of "feeling". One feels someone is xxx. One feels a sense of self. One feels a sense of Athena next to one. It is the same machinery. I wasn't posting about Tm. You were.
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Lucy0808
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11:17 AM on 10/23/2011
You don't know the science. You don't know the neuroscience at all. Your post shows it. I spoke the truth. Yes, social perception mapping is the same machinations (in general) as perceptial mapping of self. It is supported scientifically, and makes sense how ideas and maps (constructs) are made. Awareness of other, is similar to awareness of self. The same machinations are used as a byproduct of mapping "other" that happen to be non-human. Other animals, of course. Other inanimate objects, giving them false intentionality in the perception maps. It is the same thing for spirits/ghosts/and the pantheon of gods. Tree spirits, river spirits, sky spirits, etc..
You are correct that the work is in the early phase for the last 20yrs. You are incorrect that the science doesn't support this. It does. There is a great deal of work that needs to be done.
Lay people that don't agree is simply about them not knowing the science (which most don't) and that they want to support their subjective belief system. I'm a scientists and I just want to see what the status of it is and how it progresses. Your are a religious person using out of context information (poorly understood and misinformed) to support your subjective constructs and premise. Why would I beieve that? It doesn't make any sense.
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detroitblkmale30
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02:13 PM on 10/23/2011
Again repeating your post doesnt make you any more correct. I do understand it. I can read. My post demonstrates that. You simply refuse to allow any other possibilities which dont correspond to your biased view.None of what you say explains why people are wired in this way. You have still failed to adequately explain this outside of merely stating its mapping based on social perception, which makes no sense in the context of supernatural conceptualizations. Tree spirits etc that you refer to and those notions are irrelevant. Wrong again it is properly informed and supported by scientific minds smarter than you or I. Further posting from your limited perspective will not convince me otherwise.
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Lucy0808
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02:39 PM on 10/23/2011
As I said, you are incorrect and don't know the science. I am talking about how information is mapped in our brains and how constructs are created in that process. Reality isn't mapped. It is a made up map for utility's sake. You aren't comprehending that and are caught up in something outside of the science. The brain which is an organ creates mind maps.I am talking about those that are created to represent the "other minds" separate from oneself. In otherwords, creatures outside oneself "as intentioned individual minds". How those are mapped is for social purpose and utility. The same mapping methods and areas of the brain, and the same process is used to map "self" as an intentioned individual. It is a mental construct for convinience and utility. It is a very simple construct and not that which is the wealth of information from the outside world or inside world. It is a simple model for convinience. The same brain-mind processes are used to map inanimate things. The mind looks for intentioned things outside of itself. This is routinely done. The process is used for incorrecly mapping intention onto inanimate things and spirits (thunder, lightening, whatever bumps in the night).
I am talking about the biology, neurobiology, mapping of information and the creation of constructs for "intentioned beings" ...those with mind, those thought to have mind, and those faked to have mind. It is the same general machinery of the brain and the brain-mind.
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detroitblkmale30
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09:09 PM on 10/23/2011
I get it. I dont agree. You arent convincing, to me or others who have disagreed with you on this subject. I agree with other scientists. God isnt mapped for social utility. That's not correct. Once again, no matter how many times you repeat the same thing it doesnt become more convincing. I think your take on this subject is wrong.
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Lucy0808
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09:42 PM on 10/23/2011
You missed the entire point of it all.
You missed the science.
You absolutely don't know anything about the science. You even mistate words and concepts. It shows you don't even have a rudimenary understanding of the topic. Your post is silly.
You didn't even read for comprehension my posts. You mistate them so off the mark it is quite odd.
The only other person that posted to my thread comments here was a person posting about Tm. Tm is a different subject and he just confused the topic.
You are mistaken.
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detroitblkmale30
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10:13 PM on 10/23/2011
NO I didnt. I understand the science. I dont agree with your perspective on it. I did read your post. You have repeated the same principles over and over again. It shows that you are stuck to you perspective on the science, which for the 100th time I believe is mistaken.
No I am not. Thanks for your opinion.
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Godislove7
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11:02 PM on 10/23/2011
Lucy I have read your posts and you do indeed offer the same principle over and over again. I agree with DBM30. Your "social mapping" approach fails to account for why these minds are mapped in this way. You fail to draw a distinction between what the mind "creates" and what has been created in the mind. At the end of the day the "science" is inconclusive. You may take issue with DBM' grasp or perspective on the science, but you cannot say that the mind is not wired that way as science itself is still inconclusive on it. It may be the case it may not be we don't know.
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Lucy0808
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01:04 AM on 10/24/2011
You are incorrect.
The understanding of the brain-mind mapping has changed over the last 20yrs. Yes, mapping "the perceived other mind" outside of oneself is the same machinery of the brain-mind.
It isn't an issue of gods. That is something you keep bringing up and that isn't about the science. You bring in religion and I state the science. You make up stuff, and I state the science.
Your posts are about religion and your belief system. It is very subjective by definition and by your posts.
Spend some time looking into the science of human brian-mind mapping of perceived other minds and the intentionality of those minds. By definition the mapping of "other minds" is mapping disembodied minds.
This will be getting into the popular press over the next two years and maybe then you'll listen. You don't follow the science for sure.
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detroitblkmale30
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09:57 AM on 10/24/2011
Wrong. Me bring in God is not making it about God, it is discussing the scientific suggestions that brains are wired for a belief in God, There is a difference. I didnt make that up. That isnt subjective at all. Its already in the popular press, at least what I am describing. You should spend some time looking into the science. Maybe you will listen. You dont follow THIS science for sure.
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Lucy0808
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01:16 AM on 10/24/2011
A good book for lay people that don't understand the science or science is the following: "God, Soul, Mind, Brain: A Neuroscientist's Reflections On the Spirit World" by Michael S. Graziano. It is made for lay people and is not very thick. It is written beautifully and clearly, and respectfully. Journal articles are not included, but the concepts are described with some examples and analogies to help explain the science as well as where things are going.
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detroitblkmale30
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10:01 AM on 10/24/2011
shortly I will provide you with a host of different soures that support what I have said. They will be a good read for you.
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detroitblkmale30
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01:46 PM on 10/24/2011
I suggest you try the following:
Hard-wired for God? The Faith Instinct How Religion Evolved and Why It Endures, Nicholas Wade. Its not very thick and explains the principles I have been discussing.
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Lucy0808
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01:27 AM on 10/24/2011
How do you perceive another human being's "mind"?
How do you perceive your own mind?
How do you perceive the "intentionality of a disembodied mind"?
All of these use the same brain-mind mechanisms.
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detroitblkmale30
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09:58 AM on 10/24/2011
That's fine, but none of those are relevant to the particular issues I have raised within the mind as its make up is concerned in the area of supernatual belief and connections. You keep raising tangential things.
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Lucy0808
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12:17 PM on 10/24/2011
What I posted was not a tangent to the issue of "mapping constructs of the "other mind" as well as one's own" with the "awareness of the mapped construct". This machinery is exactly the same. That is how evolution works. It coopts what already exists. It doesn't create a new mechanism out of nothing. It piggybacks on what exists, but may have new gene mutations or new promoter mutations, and likely big copy number additions(or deletions) of promoters.
This set of mechanism provide a "feeling" of another mind and a "feeling" of our own mind (both of which are feelings of the existence of the construct. You don't feel the reality). This operates and cycles routinely looking for "others with intentions". It is messy. Most feelings of mind outside oneself are for real minds that exist, but also other minds with intention are mapped onto things that are inanimate and provide the illusion of another mind and the feeling that that mind exists.
I provided a book reference is you look. It is one for lay people and people not familiar with the science and the concepts. It is a very well written book, concise and clear, and short. You may like to read it.
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detroitblkmale30
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01:49 PM on 10/24/2011
It is tangential. I didnt say it created something out of nothing. The notion is though that it already existed. . Feelings are merely a symptom, not a cause and irrelevant to the origins of this faith hard wiring.. There are distinctions between I provided you a book for reference as well with good reviews that explains much, but not all of my points, written by a non-religious, scientific mind.
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Lucy0808
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12:29 PM on 10/24/2011
Mr detrotimale30, I know the science. It is my profession, contrary to your posts.
I haven't denied that the human brain-mind feels things that are interpreted as spirits or whatever. In fact, I state that over and over again in my posts. That is what my posts are about. What I do say is that the same machinery is used for the profound function in the real world with other human beings, and the creation and recognition of a construct of the self-mind. It is the same machinery and hardly surprising considering how evolution works and how biology of systems work. It is the current cutting edge of science in this regard. That you don't know it is not an insult, it is just that you don't know it.
The justification is that we are profoundly "wired" (your word) for looking for "minds and their intentions" for utility purpose because it makes profound differences for survival. Everything goes with it and is linked for the recognition of mind/intentions/ and enough to predict behavior. The same machinery is used for creation of self constructs and recognizing intention. The same machinery is used to "capture unrelated things into an inanimate other" and feel intentions. That feeling is the subjective feeling of spirits or gods. It is the same machinery.
If you send me journal article reference, please send only those from good journals and peer accepted scientists.
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detroitblkmale30
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01:56 PM on 10/24/2011
Just because it is your profession, doesnt make you correct. There are millions of scientists out there. Many of them are often wrong. That is what you keep missing. I am not debating whether the human mind feels spirits. That YOU do not understand this cutting edge research is even more shocking consiering you are indeed a scientist as you keep saying. We repeatedly keep talking in circles. I understand your "same machinery" argument. We arent profoundly wired for religion because of social purposes. That wouldnt make much sense now would it. We can be inherently social without religion. Instead we are hard wired for religion or faith instinct in general and science is attempting to determine exactly why that is. Which is why you cannot say tht it isnt for a connection to supernatual God. Afterall that would be logical within the context of religion.
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Lucy0808
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05:36 PM on 10/24/2011
Hard-wired for God? The Faith Instinct How Religion Evolved and Why It Endures, Nicholas Wade.. Thank you for the reference. I actually have read it and it is a good book. However, it is not written on the neurobiology of the brain-mind. It is a book on a different, orthagonal approach to evolution and selection for certain relgiousity types of features. That is a different topic than what I posted endlessly about. I was posting about the physical/biological brain and the creation of mind and how it happens, how information of the "other minds" is important to our species, how constructs are mapped and how they provide a "feeling" of the other minds, a "feeling" of self, and a "feeling of intentions from inanimate objects". All use the same physical mechanism in the brain-mind.
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detroitblkmale30
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09:02 PM on 10/24/2011
Which is explains how we really arent even talking about the same things. I think we have exhausted this enough.
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Lucy0808
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04:58 PM on 10/25/2011
Nciholas Wade did not propose mechanisms in the brain-mind that were responsible for religiousity. He only discussed those attributes of religiousity that may have been helpful for man's survival in ancient times and how specific attributes ( behavioral features) that may have been selected for. The actual mechanisms of the chemistry, biology of a brain organ, and the neurobiology mechanisms were not part of the purpose of the book. This latter topic is one of the top exciting research areas today and necessary. Talking about evolution of language, culture, or religiousity without a mechanism is only a small part of the science.
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ashiraladonai777
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02:59 PM on 10/23/2011
I wonder if this applies at some of the coverage I've seen of some Pride Days where there is plenty to be seen of sexual organs. Hmmmmm...Things that make you go, "Hmmmm..."
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hank p wall
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06:16 PM on 10/20/2011
One cannot imagine St. Francis of Assisi talking about rights.
--Simone Weil
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Lucy0808
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11:50 PM on 10/20/2011
Just to be clear.
St. Francis of Assisi did not live in the United States of America. He worked within monarchies and totalitarian church governments. There is a difference.
In our country, we have a Constitution that supports civil rights, and not mixing a specific religious sect creed with government policies.
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felliott
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12:41 AM on 10/21/2011
As a cradle Catholic who was also born gay, I've taken a great deal of interest in how the Church has dealt with the question of the protection of rights of gay people. What I've heard is the claim that the Church isn't against gay people; rather, it's for protecting the special status of heterosexual relationships.
As a native of Louisiana, I find the Church's argument indistinguishable from claim made by modern white supremacist leaders that they do not hate blacks or Jews, but they are concerned with protecting the white race.
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Syllogizer
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06:06 PM on 10/20/2011
Inspiring? Really? Them? It was the most inspiring religious preacher of all time who warned us that the passion your heroes indulge in is "the most degrading of all the degrading passions". So the only 'inspiring' your heroes can do it what, exactly? Not holy inspiration, that is for sure.
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tygr49
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11:05 PM on 10/20/2011
Your pure, unadulterated bigotry is a source of great inspiration to some, I'm sure. Thankfully, your numbers are dwindling.
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Lucy0808
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11:51 PM on 10/20/2011
I agree. It is so interesting that one can make such statements with such flippant self-righteousness and bigotry.
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Willie12345
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09:25 AM on 10/21/2011
Well said.
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Scott Amundsen
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10:17 AM on 10/21/2011
"Inspiring? Really? Them? It was the most inspiring religious preacher of all time who warned us that the passion your heroes indulge in is "the most degrading of all the degrading passions". So the only 'inspiring' your heroes can do it what, exactly? Not holy inspiration, that is for sure."
To whom exactly are you referring when you say "the most inspiring religious preacher of all time?" Because as sure as I am sitting here, it was not Jesus who said that quote that you apparently attributed to Him. That quote is from the book of Proverbs, believed to have been written by Solomon.
As for Jesus, He never said WORD ONE about homosexuality. Nothing. Nada. And you cannot make the claim that He did without making a liar and a fool of yourself.
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Georgia1992
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05:42 PM on 10/21/2011
"As for Jesus, He never said WORD ONE about homosexuality. Nothing. Nada."
Fanned and Fav'd.
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ashiraladonai777
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03:23 PM on 10/23/2011
Perhaps not directly, but I digress on this point:
3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”
4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[b]? 6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”
7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”
8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.” (Matthew 19:3-9 NIV 1984)
Although the text applies to the topic of divorce, Jesus REAFFIRMED God's Biblical CREATION model for marriage: one husband to one wife. That is the way God designed it to be. That is the model man has destroyed on so many levels anymore.
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Raniee
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07:05 PM on 10/21/2011
If he'd said, you would be on their side?
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SKamath
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01:51 PM on 10/24/2011
Great question, and a pretty simple one that exposes the dogma of religion. Morality is based on bronze age authors' edicts. Not on evaluation of why is something moral or immoral.
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Varys
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04:54 PM on 10/20/2011
I, for one, am glad that there are religious leaders willing to oppose the Bible.
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GDWhiteman
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05:45 PM on 10/20/2011
Much of what you call opposing the Bible is more on the order of different understandings of the Bible that conflict with traditional doctrines.
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Varys
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06:00 PM on 10/20/2011
There are explicit passages of the Bible that state the punishment for homosexuality should be death. How do you "interpret" that in a positive light? I don't think you can.
To quote an influential person on this subject:
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." - Albert Einstein
I couldn't agree more.
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HarleyOpenRoad
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06:09 PM on 10/20/2011
Einstein was a scientist.
His opinion on religion means no more than anyone else.
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BornOKtheFirstTime
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01:14 PM on 10/21/2011
Exactly!
In the same way that the opinions of Paul and Jesus mean no more than those of anyone else.
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Syllogizer
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06:09 PM on 10/20/2011
Your agreement with him means nothing. For his words carry no weight. Even on topics where he was an expert, Einstein often allowed his obstinacy to get in the way of recognizing the truth, such as when he said "God does not play dice with the world".
Are you aware of the irony? One of the Founding Fathers of Quantum Mechanics denied the implications -- now universally accepted -- of his own work.
If he could be so in error in his own specialty, just think how far off he could be when he got outside it -- as he did in the words you love to quote.
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GDWhiteman
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06:09 PM on 10/20/2011
Offering Einstein as an authority is quite the red herring, but let's skip by that.
Given that you're apparently buying the traditional viewpoint of the scripture you mentioned, please allow me to offer another: the homosexual behavior condemned as punishable by stoning is homosexual rape - a common way for victors in warfare to force the vanquished to bow before them. This has 2 problems - it's clearly unloving and it amounts to the rapist putting himself in a "God" position relative to the loser of the battle. In an iron age, nomadic culture, does stoning not seem an appropriate punishment? And besides, almost anyone with a brain knows God didn't actually say that.
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Varys
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06:53 PM on 10/20/2011
Yeah, nice try, but your interpretation is simply not correct. No scholar worth his salt will support what you're trying to argue. It's just a bald-faced attempt to sanitize holy scripture.
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GDWhiteman
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07:32 PM on 10/20/2011
Au contraire - a good many peer-respected scholars come to the same conclusion. Sanitize? They still see stoning. With the sole "agenda" of academic integrity, they want the Bible to be understood rather than turned into a religion.
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Varys
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07:42 PM on 10/20/2011
I've never accused a believer of having a firm grasp of reality, and I'm not going to start now.
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Pale Writer
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02:02 AM on 10/21/2011
And exactly who are these "peer respected" scholars that support this Biblical exegesis you have set forth here? Still curious...
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GDWhiteman
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06:58 AM on 10/21/2011
Am I the only person in this discussion who can use a search engine? I've observed a pattern emerging with "orthodox" conservatives. Apparently they go to great lengths to keep their list of "acceptable" authorities short and favorable to them by discounting differing views in various ways. e.g. if they can imagine some agenda on the part of the scholar that differs with their own agenda, conservatives feel free to wave off the differing view as inconsequential. I'm not going to jump thru your hoop - it's too small. It won't take you two minutes on a major search engine to find a couple. Do what you will with that information.
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Pale Writer
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05:59 PM on 10/21/2011
GD - You appeal to authorities that you cannot name and then accuse me of having an "agenda" and "discounting differing views"? No so, my friend. I just expect that if you are going to make claims outside of the theological concensus, that you provide a source. A peer respected, credible source. Instead, you'd rather blame me for asking...ok, When you figure out who these scholars are, let me know...
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ashiraladonai777
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03:46 PM on 10/23/2011
In the case of Sodom & Gomorrah, there might be cause to believe in the idea of rape...but not as per Leviticus:
http://interlinearbible.org/leviticus/20-13.htm
If God didn't actually say any of these things -- either Himself or thru the prophets, why bother using the Bible as any authority figure? To me, that's just playing into the devil's hands.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 NIV 1984
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor%206:9-11&version=NIV1984
I like the past tense in this: "11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." We ALL have fallen short of God's mark.
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GDWhiteman
Christian mystic iconoclast .
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04:14 PM on 10/23/2011
Homosexual rape in S&G was yet another example - not post conquering in warfare - just to let strangers in town know who's boss.
I don't adhere to any notion that the Bible is "God's Word". Some may grant it authority under their sect of Christianity. I use it at times in conjunction with meditation.
Mostly I tick off conservatives when I tell them that their focus on sin, sin, sin is a waste of time for all but the highly religious who have a problem admitting they're not perfect. I too have noticed the frequent use of past tense - yet another thing that irks conservatives when I call their attention to it.
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ashiraladonai777
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09:23 PM on 10/23/2011
Jesus acknowledged that sin was & remains real--& that it has eternal consequences. So you have a religion of your own design then that doesn't readily acknowledge sin, but somehow I don't doubt that were you a victim of a sin acknowledged as such in the Bible, you'd be the first to complain that someone had wronged you. It all boils down to "Loving God first" & then "Loving others as we love ourselves." If these were put into place first, the rest would follow...but human beings being what they are, sin all the time--& then try to deny its reality--or justify it.
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GDWhiteman
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02:42 PM on 10/24/2011
""but human beings being what they are, sin all the time--& then try to deny its reality--or justify it" - all I can add to that is, "or justify their accusations of others as a means of avoiding confronting their own"
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KDMac
It's called sarcasm, Genius. .
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10:30 AM on 10/21/2011
And there are scientists now who are saying his Theory of Relativity was wrong.
http://www.economist.com/node/21531006
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eric0063
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11:57 AM on 10/21/2011
Reading the Bible and understanding the Bible aren't necessarily the same thing. The whole law issue seems to be the greatest source of amusement for those who don't understand what it is. The law and it's punishment was for Israel. It encompassed 3 types of laws, moral, civil, and ceremonial.
Ceremonial laws were fulfilled by Jesus, that's why Christians aren't offering animal sacrifices. It's a finished work.
Civil laws existed for Israel as a nation to set them apart from other nations. Since Christians are not Israel, we are not subject to those laws (dietary restrictions, etc.)
Moral requirements, though codified in the law, existed both before and subsequent to the law. That's why murder was wrong from the beginning. That's why homosexuality is wrong today as it was then. These laws still apply to us in that the teach us right from wrong moral behavior. The penalty doesn't apply (which is really good news for all the disobedient children and their parents) but the standards remain.
With all due respect to Einstein, anyone who thinks that living a Christian life exemplifies weakness has never really tried to do it.
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HarleyOpenRoad
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06:11 PM on 10/20/2011
There are plenty of others.
Scientology, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, to name a few.
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TomMartin
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04:49 AM on 10/21/2011
Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses love the Bible, don't oppose it. So don't mix the Scientologist cult with the others.
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HarleyOpenRoad
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06:06 AM on 10/21/2011
If they truly loved the Bible, they wouldn't have invented their own version.
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TomMartin
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06:27 AM on 10/21/2011
We do not have any original manuscripts of the Bible, so people are free to decide what is inspired. The early copies differ from each other in many verses.
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HarleyOpenRoad
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10:45 AM on 10/21/2011
The NWT Bible has many changes that are not supported by any other translation teams, and the NWT was invented after the religion was established.
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el sistema
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572 Fans
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04:22 PM on 10/20/2011
Ted Haggard is not on the list. I think Ted really inspired all of us to see Christianity through a different lens. It's a joy to be able to sit back and marvel at his life, his values and how he views honesty and integrity.
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GDWhiteman
Christian mystic iconoclast .
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06:45 PM on 10/20/2011
I don't think this list was "those inspiring laughter"
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TomMartin
Freedom and equality. .
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04:52 AM on 10/21/2011
Ted Haggard is no longer a fundamentalist.
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GDWhiteman
Christian mystic iconoclast .
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06:41 AM on 10/21/2011
If so, good for him.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
detroitblkmale30
Wise Men Still Seek Him .
722 Fans
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10:24 AM on 10/21/2011
LOL
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voicebodycheck
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03:40 PM on 10/20/2011
Free love blinds the use of moral purpose.
Over zeal blinds good use of application of love.
God says don't sin, so HIS best advice is shoved away...
We say (PAUL'S QUOTE), "be content therewith what ever state".
Our quotes make us accept the unacceptable because if we don't
we pay the popularity poll and get ousted!
Morality to a sinner is a bad word and faith is just another
angle at what makes life impossible to the "UNBELIEVER
"...And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall
wax cold. Matt 24:12
What is faith then, in application it is to believe everything God says, and do it,
And if we don't then ask for forgiveness. THAT IS WHY THE CROSS AND DEATH OF CHRIST. He takes over what we humanly fail. Life is better when you don't weaken... they say!
MOREOVER?...And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called [the place] of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha: Jhn 19:18 Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst. Jhn 19:19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put [it] on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
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Bill J4321
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1013 Fans
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04:12 PM on 10/20/2011
Never jump into a pile of leaves with a wet sucker.
~ Book of Linus, KING OF THE PEANUTS.
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el sistema
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04:27 PM on 10/20/2011
I think it's better to put down the books of prejudice and open yourself up to humanity instead.
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iknowscottyknows
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153 Fans
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06:31 PM on 10/20/2011
Humanity has no hate, prejudice, bigotry, murder?
How can you overlook the actions of the non-religious?
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