Homophobic OJ comments

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el sistema
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08:51 PM on 10/20/2011
The non-religious aren't necessarily using books that promote divisiveness and intolerance.


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Valksy
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04:45 PM on 10/20/2011
Just more christo-babble.


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04:31 PM on 11/09/2011
if you run from your own sexual misbehaviour, looking for the Saviour, you will get his help.
 but if you ask a human being for peaunut butter and bread they will say you gone crazy and
 you ought to join some subversive group to get your point across.
 Jesus Salvation is like no other.
 and most people can't stand that if they serve subversive groups they attack a belief in him and to them that is a good thing even for debate.
 personally if a person is hungry, i don't ask their religion or if they have confessed first!
 MISSIONARY
 CLAUDIA HUMPHREY


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02:35 PM on 10/20/2011
What makes Manji a religious leader? According to her web site her mission is about moral leadership, not religion. A religious leader be someone who's primary occupation is the religion biz, no?


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03:18 PM on 10/20/2011
Have you read her most recent book? She is a definite leader in reforming Islam.


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Richard McRae
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02:23 PM on 10/20/2011
The LGBT that succumb to religion confuse me almost as much as those that are Republicans.


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03:09 PM on 10/20/2011
When one has a homophobic family member it usually does not mean that you stop associating with them. You love them despite their fault (which through much conversation you hope to eliminate).


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Richard McRae
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03:22 PM on 10/20/2011
Well when someone has an entire family with a long history of homophobia, it's generally acceptable to distance yourself from them.
 The religious and the GOP (who are usually one and the same) more than any other party works to limit or eliminate completely the rights and privileges of anyone who doesn't believe like they do. Women, then blacks, then the LGBT community, then atheists (with a TON of other groups scattered between) have consistently had to fight for equal rights and representation from the religious and/or Republicans.
 Religious republican conservatives are the biggest threat to human rights in the US.


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03:40 PM on 10/20/2011
Religion is a fundamental human phenomenon. There is nothing intrinsically evil, homophobic, violent, racist, sexist, etc. about it. While some ugly manifestations of faith have certainly presented themselves throughout history, these bigoted ideas exist apart from religion. Having been raised in S. California, I had the pleasure of witnessing many secular people who fit all of the above categories as well. Let's not paint with too broad a brush here, and let's not turn this into a GOP vs. Dem thing.


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03:48 PM on 10/20/2011
If you honestly think that christianity is not intrinsically or inherently homophobic, racist, or sexist then you have never studied christianity.


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04:17 PM on 10/20/2011
Do I really need to give a lecture about reading ancient texts in context? Christian origins was a key focus of my undergraduate study at U.C.L.A. If you would like, I would be more than willing to correspond further about these topics. However, I think it is important to remember that a lot of people have a spiritual drive, and instead of telling them to suppress that drive, we should make sure we do our housecleaning with the religions available to us (eliminating: racism, homophobia, sexism, etc).


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Richard McRae
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04:24 PM on 10/20/2011
I also studied the bible EXTENSIVELY while studying for the seminary. We can play all the word games we want, but for the last few thousand years the christian religion (to name one) has had as part of its canon racism, sexism, and homophobia. Let's not even get into islam or any of the other Abrahamic religions.
 I'm not talking about people repressing their spirituality. I'm just always shocked at people who want to join an organization that has made an active point of repressing or harming them. I'd be just as amazed at a black man that wanted to join the KKK.


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04:42 PM on 10/20/2011
Many organizations that started out as bigoted, no longer are. Should I avoid watching the MLB because at one time they excluded blacks? No they have corrected their behavior. love the United States and I believe it to be a beautiful country. That does not mean that I am not ashamed of the sexism, racism, slavery, and all other manner of injustices that were sanctioned by the state at some time or another. I am not ignoring or attempting to forget the struggles of those before me. That does not mean we should throw the baby out with the bath water. Let's not ignore some of the more positive things the church seems to be doing (like pentecostalism in Latin America crushing sexist machismo). I think that we should move forward and be proud of what we are slowly becoming, a more tolerant society. I think we should welcome the church changing their ways. In 100 years there will not be hardly a church left that preaches against homosexuality.


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05:13 PM on 10/20/2011
I agree, and you're right that in 100 years people will look on the homophobes of our generation in the same way we look on the racists of 100 years ago.
 But I'm STILL amazed that anyone would want to be a part of a group that hates them so much.


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Syllogizer
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06:18 PM on 10/20/2011
I don't believe you when you claim this extensive study. No one should believe you. Why? Because if you had really STUDIED it, you would have known better than to make the rash generalization you made. But you made it anyway. This proves beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt that what you did and called 'study' was no such thing.
 How did you miss it? The same Bible that some interpreted as endorsing slavery inspired many to fight slavery, even to the extreme that John Brown went to. Do you really expect us to believe that your "extensive study" proved that the former were correct and the latter wrong?
 Don't expect it, because we won't.
 Then there is the way you completely missed what it was that REALLY pushed slavery over the edge and out of the civilized, modern social order: it was economic change. It no longer makes economic sense to rely on slavery for our labor supply, the (relatively) free labor market does MUCH better.
 Did you really not know at all? The reason so many poor whites in the Northern States supported the war was NOT love of the downtrodden slaves, it was the economic fact that the mere existence of slavery was depressing their wages. The South was desperate to export their "peculiar institution" to every territory, because it was strangling their economy at home; but the export strangled the labor market for free men, which is why they fought back.


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07:59 PM on 10/20/2011
I'm sure it's very comfortable for you to believe that. But I studied the bible with the heart and spirit of someone who was in love with god, in love with the church, and in love with the bible. I studied it with the love of someone who wanted nothing more than to learn everything there was to learn about it so that I could share it with others.
 It was through years and years of deep, intense study of not just the bible but of tons of supporting material that I started to realize just how horrible of a book it is. I realized that I believed in a loving, caring god - and that the god of the bible was nothing of the sort.
 To quote Twain, it ain't the parts of the bible I don't understand that disturb me. It's the parts that I do.


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03:20 PM on 10/20/2011
We shouldn't. Those of us who are religious (in my case, Christian), simply refuse to deny that part of ourselves that is spiritual simply because others want us to.


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03:29 PM on 10/20/2011
It's not about denying the spiritual side of you. I'm amazed that any member of the LGBT community would associate themselves with the two most homophobic groups in America, both of which have (and still do) actively work to limit or eliminate the rights of the LGBT community.


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03:36 PM on 10/20/2011
What groups are those? The Christian church that I currently belong to actually advocates quite strongly for full inclusion of LGBT people in all aspects of society.
 The bottom line is this, I'm not willing to allow fallable human beings to deny me a relationship with Christ---a relationship that I believe we both (Christ and I) want. I think to do so is quite stupid.
 When did you relinquish your right to determine your faith to others? Do you do that with all aspect of your life or just this one?


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03:40 PM on 10/20/2011
That's good for your church, but it is FAR from the norm. If your church allows gay marriage, fights for gay rights, accepts that homosexuality is not a sin, and is comfortable with things like transgenderism, etc then great.
 But you'd have to be willingly blind to not see that the church and the Republican party is CONSTANTLY at the forefront of any anti-LGBT movement. It's good your church is an exception - but it's still an exception.


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05:33 PM on 10/20/2011
I don't disagree with you that my church is far from the norm within Christiandom (and, incidentally, they do all of the above).
 Having said that, I still think that if one permits another person to dictate the terms of their relationship with their creator, they are making a huge mistake.


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GDWhiteman
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05:50 PM on 10/20/2011
Change for the better often starts with being exceptional. Why Coloradem would choose to stay with something exceptionally good seems like a no-brainer to me. It's the hope (and wave) of the future.


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dmgoss
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03:48 PM on 10/20/2011
While I agree, I think it's more a case of institutional affiliation, rather than basic spirituality, which leads one to ask whether a church or social group that gathers around religious beliefs is actually necessary for anything other than instruction or community? Obviously, one's beliefs grow and become more nuanced from contact with like minded others, but if the members of that group hate you for an essential part of your person, why stay? Or continue to subscribe to the dogma that is likely the source of that hate?
 I'm not a religious person, but I am a social one, and I understand the need for common cause and contact. But I also understand the cruelty and rejection any group is capable of. In this case, Martin Luther's ultimate goal of removing the church and its representatives as the necessary administrators of God's will has the feature of allowing the individual to pursue a relationship with their spirituality through a solitary reading of the bible.
 Of course, Weber's response, that churches ultimately serve as communal entities that bind neighbors into a group identity necessary to social harmony, seems to trump the idea that mere belief is even the main issue when it comes to the power churches have over a population. Check how well Muslims are currently mainstreaming into American society for a great example of this.


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03:58 PM on 10/20/2011
I see what you are saying and, to an extent, agree with you. I would certainly not stay with any group of people who hated me (or anyone else, for that matter) given that the Christ I follow instructs us to, "Love your neighbor as yourself". Hate is contrary to his command.


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Richard McRae
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05:47 PM on 10/20/2011
"Having said that, I still think that if one permits another person to dictate the terms of their relationsh­ip with their creator, they are making a huge mistake.”"
I agree 100%. Which is why I'm always so amazed when anyone from the LGBT succumbs to religion or Republicanism.


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06:36 PM on 10/20/2011
You lost me. If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that LGBT people should not engage in any religion because some within religious communites claim that God/Allah/S-he who we call by many names doesn't like them. In other words, we should listen to those people (and those within the LGBT community who tell us that we don't need to engage in religious activities) and accept that we are not worthy of God's love?
 You really shouldn't be surprised (or amazed) by the diversity or independent mindedness of those of us who are gay.


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Richard McRae
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08:02 PM on 10/20/2011
You keep saying that I've said the LGBT community SHOULDN'T be part of religion or a religious group. I've never said that. I've said that I'm SURPRISED they are. I don't think blacks shouldn't join the KKK. I'd just be surprised at the ones who wanted to.


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10:21 AM on 10/21/2011
So now you're equating Methodist, members of the the United Church of Christ, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, etc.with the KKK? Well, given that those who killed Matthew Shepard were American, why would any gay person stay in America?
 The bottom line is this: You have chosen to replace one bigotry (against gay people) with another (against religious people). Well, pick your poison, I guess.


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Richard McRae
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11:37 AM on 10/21/2011
But I'll tell you what - I'll continue supporting the LGBT community against unfair legislation and religious persecution.
 You keep defending the church.


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Coloradem
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12:41 PM on 10/21/2011
I'll defend both against real enemies instead of looking for enemies where they don't exist.


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Richard McRae
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12:51 PM on 10/21/2011
Considering the great lengths you've gone through to make me an 'enemy' in this thread, I find that that statement incredibly ironic.


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Richard McRae
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12:58 PM on 10/21/2011
Also, if you think the church hasn't been an enemy of the LGBT community you definitely need to educate yourself both on LGBT history and the bible. To deny it is like saying that the South was never an enemy of black people.


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Coloradem
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01:29 PM on 10/21/2011
Actually saying "the South" was an enemy to black people is exactly as stupid as saying "the Church" is the enemy of gay people.
 Black people were a part of the south, so your statement implies that black people were enemies of themselves. Were there elements of "the South" that treated black people horribly? Of course. Are there element of "the Church" that treat gays and lesbians horribly? Of course. "The South" is not a monolith though and neither is "the Church" and that is the fallacy of your argument.


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02:22 PM on 10/21/2011
Okay, I see where the issue is. You're having trouble grasping concepts if the details aren't nitpicked. You're not understanding a concept because we're not throwing out specific names, scenarios, and situations. So since you're just not getting it, I'll explain a little deeper:
 Christianity (as one example) has consistently and repeatedly demonized and criminalized homosexuality. Even in today's current news if you look at any anti-LGBT legislation within the US you'll find it's virtually 100% of time either headed, funded, or supported by religious organizations. Sometimes they're christian. Sometimes they're not. What they all have in common is that they are RELIGIOUS-BASED and their objections are that homosexuality is immoral or unequal because of their RELIGIOUS BELIEFS.
 Your church is an exception. WONDERFUL. But at the head of everything that eliminates or limits LGBT equality in this nation is one religious organization or another.
 That's fine if you disagree. It's great that the members of the LGBT community who have been subjected to religious discrimination get to be told how wrong they are by their fellow LGBT members.


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02:52 PM on 10/21/2011
No I really don't think you see where the issue is at all. The issue is simply this: You are attempting to apply blanket condemnations to people of faith based on the the worst actions by some members of the faith community. This is not unlike those bigotted members of the faith communities who attempt to categorize all members of the LGBT community based on the actions of "go-go boys dancing on floats at gay pride parades".
 While it may be much simpler in the short run to try to live life sticking labels on people and them placing them into little boxes while coding them "good" or "bad", you are doing yourself and the LGBT community an extreme disservice in doing so.
 Remember, Martin Luther King was a devout Christian and it was his faith that led him to do the great things that he did, yet in your little "box" you would put him in the "bad" category.


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Richard McRae
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04:01 PM on 10/21/2011
I'm not attempting to box anyone into a specific category. I'm also not basing my opinion on religion by the actions of only its worst members. I'm simply showing how things ARE, not how I THINK they are. I didn't decide to go on some vendetta against the church and blame them for all the evils in the world. What I did was notice a continuing and common trend in anti-LGBT movements.
 Look at things like DADT, DOMA, the fight against marriage equality, the political arguments against equality for the LGBT community, etc, etc, etc, etc. This is historic, this is researchable, this is easy to prove if you just go do your homework.
 Are you honestly telling me that in the fight for gay rights you're NOT fighting against religious bigotry? That you're NOT fighting against christian ideals? That you're NOT confronted with religious groups that use their religion as justification to limit rights for the LGBT community?


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05:00 PM on 10/21/2011
I'm telling you that I am fighting against anti-gay bigotry, no matter the source...tradition, religion, misogeny and the "ick" factor to name a few. I am also fighting anti-Christian bigotry, no matter the source. I am not fighting Christian ideals at all....on the contrary, Chistian ideals were set by Christ very clearly in Mark: "Love your neighbor as yourself"....no exceptions....that is the ideal that I am fighting for.
 As to DADT, DOMA, ENDA and the rest of the alphabet soup of gay rights (and discrimination) laws, I've been on the front line of these battles for the better part of the past 40 years and the opposition has had a strong base in the faith community. There are a significant number of religious leaders and people in the pews who are fighting on the other side of the issue as well. For every Pat Robertson there is a Rob Bell; for every Jerry Falwell there is a Mel White.
 This isn't and either/or issue. It isn't one when Fred Phelps declares it so and it isn't one when you declare it so. And those of us who are Christian didn't "succumb" homosexuality any more than those of us who are gay "succumbed" to religion.


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05:22 PM on 10/21/2011
I agree that there are religious members fighting for LGBT rights. But those are new, they're the exception, and they're having to fight against their fellow religious members.
 It's a good thing it's happening. It's a good thing the church is opening up. It's a good thing they're finally becoming accepting of homosexuality. But the very fact that it IS a fight and that they ARE the minority means that religion is still more anti-homosexuality than pro-homosexuality.
 I never said you were fighting christian ideals. Most christians don't follow christian ideals. I said you were fighting religion. Big huge difference. One of homosexuality's biggest hurdle is gaining universal acceptance in the religious community. Just look at countries that have very low religious populations and you can see the inverse relationship of religion and acceptance of homosexuality.
 Yes of COURSE there are examples of people and churches fighting for gay rights. There always has been and there always will be people who can see past the bigotry. But if you can't use a few bad examples as an indication of the whole, you can't use a few good ones either.
 Most religions have always fought against LGBT rights. The Abrahamic religions most notably. You can't in all honesty say that religion as a whole is supportive of the LGBT community and LGBT rights.
 Well you can say it I suppose - you can even try to convince others of it, but then you'd have to change your name to Colorarepub.


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el sistema
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04:00 PM on 10/20/2011
Superstition isn't prejudice.


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04:04 PM on 10/20/2011
But the superstitious and religious usually are. And christianity as a whole is one of the most homophobic groups in the US. Religion as a whole is one of the most homophobic in the world.


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el sistema
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04:16 PM on 10/20/2011
They also have the most sects. So many denominations within Christianity I am sure they could find one or two sects they'd enjoy.


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Syllogizer
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06:19 PM on 10/20/2011
You are showing the really deep prejudice yourself when you claim " the superstiti­ous and religious usually are [prejudiced?]".


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08:00 PM on 10/20/2011
Nah, I'm speaking from countless examples and experience throughout history. If you look at every anti-LGBT movement or legislation it is invariable fronted by a religious group.


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felliott
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12:47 AM on 10/21/2011
Superstition is prejudice compounded with cowardice and stupidity.


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Coloradem
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10:24 AM on 10/21/2011
Actually prejudice, be it against gay people or religous people, is cowardice coupled with stupidity.


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felliott
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11:49 AM on 10/21/2011
Is all religion superstition?


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12:39 PM on 10/21/2011
Depends on who you ask. So in the most broad sense, yes, every religion is considered supersitition by some people.


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eric0063
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02:22 PM on 10/20/2011
But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3)


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Grada3784
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03:32 PM on 10/20/2011
For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedien­t to parents, ungrateful­, unholy, unloving, irreconcil­able, malicious gossips, without self-contr­ol, brutal, haters of good, treacherou­s, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness,
 This is something new? Seems like the last days Timothy was talking about have been forever.


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Bill J4321
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04:14 PM on 10/20/2011
Next time you talk to him, can you ask him to push up the rapture date so I can finally get some peace and quiet down here.


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eric0063
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04:38 PM on 10/20/2011
Well, according to the prophecies, it'll probably get noisier, not quieter, after that event. How bout a nice set of ear plugs?


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04:38 PM on 10/20/2011
Nice post. It's good to see the truth .


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05:06 PM on 10/20/2011
So, men will behave exactly the same during the "last days" as they have for the last few thousand years?


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GDWhiteman
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06:01 PM on 10/20/2011
"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction­, for training in righteousn­ess" - A) that isn't God talking, it's whoever forged 2 Tim under Paul's name B) I don't see anything suggesting limitation to a canon selected by one faction or any time frame for the scripture to have been written. And frankly, I see many of those predicted things happening right now chiefly among the most loudest Bible thumpers.
 Using scripture to infer (false) accusations of others before someone points a finger at the accuser is one of the oldest and sleaziest rhetorical tools of the religions "orthodox". What a pity more folks aren't able to see thru that scam.


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Syllogizer
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06:21 PM on 10/20/2011
It isn't always a scam. That is why people don't "see thru" what you THINK you see through.


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GDWhiteman
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06:30 PM on 10/20/2011
No, not always - but far more often than not.


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eric0063
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06:40 PM on 10/20/2011
What accusation was there? I simply quoted a few verses from 2 Timothy.
 What amazes me, however, is that so many people believe in a 'god' who could not get us his word if he chose to. A god who has no standards of right and wrong higher than what we think is right and wrong. A god who would never want us wise humans to go against our self willed nature. A god who thinks that our personal earthly happiness is the ultimate goal of creation. A god who speaks only to people's hearts without offering any standards for verification. A god who would have no need of purity or personal accountability.
 You may choose to deny the God of the Bible, you can say you believe in Jesus and that He is part of your life, but these don't mix. Jesus believes in the OT scriptures, said it was those scriptures that are written of Him. Jesus doesn't stand apart from the law, He established the law, then asks "why do you call me Lord Lord and don't do what I say?"
 Paul writes in Romans 3: "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin... Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law."
 (yes, the law is referring to the OT scriptures, wherein all moral laws are codified)


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GDWhiteman
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07:29 PM on 10/20/2011
"Jesus believes in the OT scriptures" - except, of course, where he directly contradicts them.
 Who knows what the thorn in Paul's side was? All we can tell for certain is that he struggled mightily with what he believed was sins of the flesh. Pretty arrogant of him to make the assumption that everyone's like him. But then "projection" is a well established principle of human psychology when dealing with people we know little or nothing about.
 I have little doubt that those laws against harming others clearly violate loving your neighbor as yourself. However, when it comes to various holiness codes established for a nomadic Iron Age tribal society, I seriously doubt that God gives a hoot one way or the other about much of OT law. I think overboard assumptions are made when it comes to what law Jesus is talking about.


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GDWhiteman
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07:30 PM on 10/20/2011
"Deny the God of the Bible"? Which one? i.e. Which interpretation? With or without a hermeneutic system designed to affirm one flavor of Christianity as "orthodox"? Need I go on? Many choices. Yours is THE correct one? Says who? Don't tell me "the Bible". Others read the same words and come to vastly different conclusions.
 If you feel convicted of sin, do what you must. Those among us who long ago confessed, know we're forgiven, and have moved on to life really don't need you pointing fingers. What WAS that scripture??? Oh, yeah - "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone". Another scripture where people miss the point (even though it was inserted later - another interesting edit of "God's Word") - everybody gets that they're not supposed to throw stones. What almost everyone misses is that the guy who everyone agrees is qualified to throw stones does not. No statement of belief required. No punishment. Just "Go and sin no more". God's justice is restorative, not punitive.


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eric0063
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07:50 PM on 10/20/2011
I will give you credit for your firmness of belief. A lot of people don't know why they believe what they believe. I don't see you as one of those.
 Clearly we have huge difference in our views of the Bible. Perhaps in time I will come to understand yours better, and perhaps you mine. I am not idle in my study of both the new or old testaments, and the deeper I dig the more convinced I am of it's authenticity and application to us today. I am certainly flawed in many ways of how I understand it, but for me the authorship is always strengthened the deeper I get.
 God's justice is not restorative. His grace and mercy, absolutely. But God's justice can be a fearsome and terrible thing. It is God's justice that sent Jesus to the cross in our stead (I think that is one thing we agree on). Under God's justice we all would stand condemned. His mercy and grace are what draw us to Him, that instills in us a longing to please Him.
 Regarding the casting the first stone event, if you study it closely, Jesus knew it was a trap. They completely violated the rules of the TORH in even bringing her to Jesus. First, where was the man? Second, according the the TORH they had to present 2 witnesses (who were not present). Everything about the event was meant to trap Jesus, he was judging their hypocrisy, not the law.


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GDWhiteman
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08:12 PM on 10/20/2011
It sounds like the notion of restorative justice seems like an oxymoron or paradox to you. You might chew on that a little - like until you see that it only seems paradoxical until your perspective aligns with God.
 We agree that God sent Jesus to the cross. Where we disagree is between "in our stead" and "on our behalf". (that's a punitive perspective vs restorative)
 Yes, the stone thing - he knew it was a trap - and handled it well. But it escapes almost everyone's notice how Jesus acts after all the others are gone. The law says she should be stoned. He's without sin. Jesus fulfills the law without needing punishment.
 Grace: a personal story - I was in a study group with some folks who know my personal history. The workbook for the study asked, "Do you think God's grace is a powerful force? Why?" A couple of folks gave nice, doctrine-correct Christian answers. Then it was my turn. My reply: "Yes. It changed me." Given the groups knowledge of the old me and the new man, that discussion was over. It was as clear to them as it is to me that God's grace is an awesome force indeed.


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GDWhiteman
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08:21 PM on 10/20/2011
I attended a men's breakfast at another church this morning. The guest speaker was Michael Franzese - a former mafia boss from a cosa nostra family. He has an awesome testimony of God's restoration - a very real, raw description of an actual relationship with Christ as a follower. I don't know that he mentioned "belief" much at all and pretty much said to the attendees, "What denomination you are doesn't matter in what we're talking about here." Following and relationship vs belief and religion. Many of the men there are religious. Most if not all would call themselves "believer". It was clear that his story spoke to them. He's living what they claim we desire as Christians. He was a very sinful man, and he's not shy about it. He admits that he's still not perfect, but he's focused on God's will instead of sin. A lot of men in that room would love to trade places with him. I enjoyed it because I am him. Not NY mafia, but my story is very similar in many ways - down to and including the woman he married as my wife is for me. It was like watching myself talk to men who need to learn to admit their sins, accept forgiveness, and plunge into willingness to be transformed.


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GDWhiteman
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08:43 PM on 10/20/2011
This whole thing - it's not about our failures. It's about God's success. Where we've been... it is what it is - first and foremost, not changeable. Confess, receive forgiveness (you'll know you've received it when you quit asking for it over the same old things again and again), and embrace life - abundant life. We're called human beings for a reason - note: we are not "human doings". BE a word holding your truth. Not how do you behave or what you say. Who are you? (when you don't think anyone is watching).


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GDWhiteman
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09:45 PM on 10/20/2011
Does it make any sense to you that allowing transformation to that the desire of your heart aligns with God is all the repudiation of your sin the God requires? When you have let go of your love of a sin and taken God's loving view of him and others, what could be stronger than that? I'm not talking about outward behavior here - I'm talking about the essence of who you are - what you truly desire in your heart of hearts without coercion.


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eric0063
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12:39 PM on 10/21/2011
Search out the word "justice" and in most cases (in both the OT & NT) it implies judgement or vengeance. It can also mean what is right. Jesus set the bar for being right pretty high: looking at a woman with lust is the same as adultery; love your enemies and do good to them; merely calling someone a fool it tantamount to murder. Who can meet those standards? And you want justice?
 You mention letting go of our love of sin and aligning our desire of our hearts with God's. That requires a measurement of what sin is, of what God desires. Feelings can not be the measure, for our old nature is always at war with our new nature. Jeremiah 17:9 says The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?" There must be a firm standard for comparison.
 Everyone believes in something, so we're all believers. But in what do we believe? It is about relationship, but faith also. Belief is an intellectual ascent something is true, faith is the operative trust in that truth. What do you put your faith in is the real issue.
 One last note: When Jesus said he did not judge the woman caught in adultery, what else did he say? "Go and sin no more." Did he really expect her never to fall short again? Or was it a call out of what she wanted into what God desires for us?


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CMR64
u hurt my feeling .
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05:58 AM on 10/21/2011
the whole problem with the above passage is the last sentence...so you are in favor of the death penalty for gays?


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eric0063
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11:41 AM on 10/21/2011
CMR64... short answer is no.
 Longer answer is that since we are not under the law, the penalty of the law is not in force. Does that mean the law against homosexuality is abolished? Or coveting? Or lying? Or stealing? No, the law is there for us today to enable us to illuminate our sin nature, to enable us to discern right from wrong. Or as the last sentence in the passage, it is there for us today to teach us and correct our wrong ways of thinking.
 I am not homophobic, I don't hate homosexuals. Their sin is no worse than my sin. The question is, do we embrace and empower our sin nature? Or do we see it for what it is and strive to live a life that is honoring to God, rather than honoring ourselves and our desires?


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CMR64
u hurt my feeling .
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05:43 AM on 10/25/2011
I am sorry if you subscribe to the belief that homosexuality is a sin and ALL SCRIPTURE is useful to correct and reproof paraphrasing Paul...then you believe that homosexuals are to be stoned. That slaves are to be owned and women should keep their place.
 I embrace my sexuality simply because I love God ..I would never ever tell Him that He was wrong in making me ...


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eric0063
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11:06 AM on 10/25/2011
You miss the point. The Bible says all scripture is useful for correction and reproof. If you believe the Bible that's a very simple straightforward statement. It also says we are not judged (under the penalty) of the law. Good thing too, imagine if we stoned every disobedient child... population control would cease to be an issue.
 Christians are not 'under' the law, but the law still exists to illuminate sin. Here is where many say it's a sin to eat shrimp and wear polyester. Wrong, civil and ceremonial laws were for Judaism. Moral laws were not abolished. The penalty under Judaism is absolved, but not the laws themselves.
 God is not wrong in making any person. But every person is born with a sin nature. Just because we feel something is right, using the argument that this is how God made me can be used to justify any action.
 My 'sexuality' compels me to be an adulterer... no better, no worse, than homosexuality. Because I'm made this way, does that make it right?


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CMR64
u hurt my feeling .
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05:45 PM on 10/25/2011
you can't have it both ways....either you believe what the Bible says ALL scripture or don't ...you are guiltily of picking and choosing as much as homosexuals ....I was born gay you cannot dispute what I experienced based on your presumptions. The issue is the same as it was with slavery ...period...


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09:28 AM on 10/21/2011
Well said.


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buddha65
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12:44 PM on 10/24/2011
What about us women?


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eric0063
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01:43 PM on 10/24/2011
Being a man myself, I think I gotta admit that women are exempt from much of the male gender's inherent foolishness. But in the context of the above I think it's referring to 'mankind', or in the current vernacular 'humankind'.


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Gay Iberian
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02:10 PM on 10/20/2011
None of the LGBT religious leaders are inspiring . Religion is not an inspiring organization, but rather a dangerous organization with false beliefs and false gods and fraught with corruption, sexual abuses and moral and intellectual oppression.


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iknowscottyknows
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02:34 PM on 10/20/2011
I think you're confusing "Religion" with the DNC.


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el sistema
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04:07 PM on 10/20/2011
The majority of evangelical fundamentalists identify themselves as republicans.


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Syllogizer
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06:22 PM on 10/20/2011
True. But that is not just because of a natural affinity between them, but because the Democrats have gone out of their way to alienate LOTS of Christians, not just "evangelical fundamentalists" with their endorsement of abortion and "gay marriage".


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AdamWest1313
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08:32 PM on 10/20/2011
There are more Christian Democrats then there are Atheist democrats.
 Nice try though.


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Coloradem
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03:13 PM on 10/20/2011
The brush you are painting with is a bit broad. Religion is not a single organization. You should not judge all "religions" based on your personal experience any more than you would judge all caucasian people based on your experience with one caucasian person.


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felliott
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12:52 AM on 10/21/2011
Religions aren't people. They're ideologies. Moreover, religion is not like race since religion is unquestionably a choice and certainly is mutable. Therefore, religious rights should not be subject to the same scrutiny as rights based on immutable characteristics.


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Coloradem
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10:11 AM on 10/21/2011
Perhaps caucasian wasn't the best example. Let's try this: You shouldn't judge all police officers based on an experience you have with one police officer.


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The Conspiracy
God vs. Gay? Really? | The Godblogger
The Conspiracy | October 20, 2011 by John Propper | 8 Comments

The Torah commands us to love our neighbor and treat them compassionately. But it also condemns the act of “man [lying] with man as with a woman.” How do we reconcile Judaism with LGBT issues? Also, what about women “lying” with women? – LB, Florida, U.S.
headshotx100There’s a lot to unpack in this question: what the Torah says, what the Torah has been interpreted as saying – even the assumption that this discussion must be had in the first place deserves some attention. Suffice it to say this probably won’t be the most detailed analysis of the question, but it will be a jumping off point for further study. I’ll try to be as detailed as possible along the way.
Vayikra (Leviticus) 18:22 says, “Do not lie with a man as one does with a woman; it is an abomination.” This passage is widely understood to reference gay sexuality, particularly the act of anal sex. The text doesn’t mention lesbian sex in any form, though if an individual interprets this passage as has been done traditionally, it follows that women would also need to reserve their sex lives for heterosexual intercourse. After all, if men must be with women according to the word of God, then women must also willingly participate in the social heteronormativity.
Underscoring this interpretation of Vayikra is the story of the city Sodom in Bereshit (Genesis) 19:1-11, where two visiting angels are threatened by violent men of the city. These men demand that the angels (who they simply recognize as ordinary men) be sent out to them “so that we may know them” — in essence, to rape them. Spoiler alert: the men are eventually struck with blindness by the power of God through the angels. The city, along with neighbor city Gomorrah, is destroyed by God’s wrath. The passage is often used as a demonstration of the spiritual “blindness” created by engaging in gay or lesbian sex, where LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender) persons are compared to animals, rapists, or perverts, like the men of the story.
These are the Torah’s most cited references to homosexuality. Clearly, they’re not among the cheeriest of Torah passages. For years, the discussion about LGBT persons within Judaism (or any religion or public sphere, really) was a slow, mostly hidden process. However, with the current political climate engaging the question of marriage equality, gays and lesbians are beginning to participate openly in their own life journeys, candid about their sexuality. This means that outside the “closet” of never telling anyone about one’s sexual orientation, LGBT persons wish to be treated with equal respect in the workplace, the religious sector, and the political process, as they marry, have children, and simply live alongside everybody else.
However, it is difficult for many to reconcile biblical passages that clearly condemn… well, something… with the knowledge that a brother, a friend, a co-worker—or even a fellow Torah scholar—may be LGBT. As the debate about how inclusive to be in the synagogue rages on, that level of inclusiveness operates on a spectrum, where Orthodoxy is typically less inclusive, and Reform and Reconstructionism are typically the most inclusive. Notice I say “typically” — there are trends in every movement to be more or less accepting of the LGBT Jews in our lives.
One sphere in which this discussion has taken hold is that of Torah scholarship. While much scholarship has acted as a defense of the traditional marriage/sexuality model, scholars like Jay Michaelson, whose earlier work Everything is God explored the concept of unity in Chasidic mysticism, have taken on the cause I like to call “LGBT apologetics.”
Jay Michaelson | Image from jaymichaelson.net
Jay Michaelson | Image from jaymichaelson.net
In Michaelson’s new book, God vs. Gay?: The Religious Case for Equality, he lays out a compelling case. What sets Michaelson’s book aside from other texts published on the subject is that he rarely strays outside the biblical and rabbinic texts themselves to make his argument that, yes, LGBT persons should be free to love and marry their partners. He spends most of his time debunking the myths and stereotypes surrounding sexual orientation, and how many of them are rooted in misinterpretations of our sacred texts.
For example, Michaelson argues that the sin of the people of Sodom wasn’t homosexuality the orientation. It was attempted rape, a crime against human dignity. He cites the prophet Ezekiel, who declared, “Sodom’s sins were pride, gluttony, and laziness, while the poor and needy suffered outside her door” (Ezekiel 16:49). And besides, when a heterosexual rape occurs, it isn’t seen as indicative of the dangers of straight sex. Quite the opposite—rape itself is the abomination, not orientation
Even Vayikra’s condemnation of “lying with man” takes on a different tone when it is seen as a prohibition against ritualized sex, a common practice at the time of the canonization of the Torah. The problem then, Michaelson purports, isn’t that LGBT persons are coming out about their sexuality, or that they express that sexuality. It’s that sexuality itself has been misunderstood almost completely, and that the weight of that misunderstanding has unfortunately fallen on the Torah.
Moreover, Michaelson argues for a sexual ethic that sees the act of two monogamous, consenting adults as inherently holy, which then spirals out and makes sacred the process of discovering one’s own sexuality. In this model, the coming out process becomes an act of Kiddush Hashem, whereby we affirm the goodness of God’s name through our choice to be honest about our sexual orientation, and life-affirming in how we express that orientation. Michaelson is elevating the discussion, making it about far more than “dos and don’ts.” Under his perspective, simply being a sexual being is holy, even if that sexuality is never expressed. To express it, however, is to participate in God’s story, to enjoy God’s gift of love.
God vs. Gay is an excellent resource for those struggling to reconcile their sexual feelings — or those of a loved one — with being a person of devout religious faith. Michaelson never panders, attempts to set aside all biases and simply lets the text speak for itself. What happens when he clears the smoke of punditry and bigotry is a beautiful thing, and the discussion over equality and human diversity is elevated because of Michaelson’s willingness to have faith in the words of the Torah — and in human dignity.
John Wofford is a junior at Aquinas College in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He is the current editor of an upcoming interfaith arts hub, a Neo-Hasidic nerd and music journalist of five years. His column, The Godblogger, appears here on alternating Thursdays.

If you liked this, you'll LOVE these:
Kavanah vs. Keva In Jewish PrayerKavanah vs. Keva In Jewish PrayerTorah and modern activism; don't pray the gay away; and more. [Required Reading]Torah and modern activism; don't pray the gay away; and more. [Required Reading]A thought-provoking ShabbatA thought-provoking ShabbatIs Non-Orthodox Judaism Chillul Hashem? | The GodbloggerIs Non-Orthodox Judaism Chillul Hashem? | The GodbloggerJewish atheism? What's up with that? | The GodbloggerJewish atheism? What's up with that? | The Godblogger

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8 Older Responses to “God vs. Gay? Really? | The Godblogger”


David Bloom
October 22, 2011 at 8:27 pm # 

Very nice post!

  
 

CF
October 24, 2011 at 11:37 am # 

In a past worldview where women are property and men are property owners, I’ve understood both passages to mean that a property owner should not treat another property owner as property. A man should not sleep with a man as he sleeps with a woman; that is, he should not penetrate another man, because the ‘only’ people who get penetrated were women, ostensibly without agency or authority over what happens to their own body. (I say ‘only’ because rules are made to discourage or encourage behaviors that already exist.) Lesbian sex doesn’t merit mention under this interpretation, and it also helps explain why rape of males is punishable while offering one’s daughters up for rape is not.
The story of Sodom may have some relevance today, but surely whatever directives exist in either passage regarding homosexuality are moot because women (in most of the world) are not thought of as property the way they once were.

  
 

John Wofford
October 24, 2011 at 1:39 pm # 

CF–
Excellent points. I didn’t have the space (or time) to go into that specifically, but it’s all very true and worth considering. Thanks for reading!

  
 

Rabbi Al
October 24, 2011 at 2:10 pm # 

Actually CF is more or less correct. And in fact, Maimonides says pretty clearly that there *is not* a prohibition against lesbian sex, butthat it is licentious, and thus her husband or father must forbid her if she seems to incline that way – only after her husband or father warns her can she be punished – not for the sex, but for disobedience.
 How do you like them apples?
 But beside all that, there are problems with the usual translation of Leviticus, a more accurate translation of which would be “do not lie with a man the lyings of a woman” – something that is actually a lot less clear, and in fact the rabbis of the talmud understood it to mean that one shouldn’t like with a person who has both sexes. The prohibition against homosexuality, they sy, actually comes from the participle “et”

  
 

Rabbi Al
October 24, 2011 at 2:12 pm # 

oh, and the sin of Sodom is NOT attempted rape. The rabbis tell us what it is: it is having plenty and refusing to share it with the poor, and not only that but making it a crime for anyone to do so.

  
 

John Wofford
October 24, 2011 at 2:40 pm # 

Rabbi Al–
I’m assuming that you’re essentially agreeing with me…? I’m a bit confused by your tone, considering that I made at least a couple of those points in the article, and affirmed the rest in the comments section. Sodom’s sin isn’t rape, it is lack of compassion. Either way, I completely agree with CF’s comments, some of which I echo in the article, the rest of which can be found in Michaelson’s book.

  
 

Geoff
October 24, 2011 at 3:32 pm # 

John this is crazily awesome because I was just having this conversation with someone. My studies in Judaism (including Maimonides), while not rabbinical, have found virtually nothing prohibitive about homosexuality. If out of all the lines in Leviticus, that is the only one to say anything about it then why is it such a big deal? I think that there are two reasons why Jews have problems with homosexuals. First and most basic is that Jews tend to assume that the Torah forbids. It’s almost a gut instinct. Can I have cheese on my burger? No. Can I go out tonight? No it’s Yom Kippur. Can I get this $200 pair of jeans? No. Can I date a girl named Mary O’Shiksa? What, are you trying to kill your mother? Second, is a fear for the culture. Gay people, while as interested in Jewish Culture and procreating it as much as anyone else, can’t actually procreate. This, especially for Holocaust survivors and their children tends to be a problem. Illogical, but a problem because of an emotional issue that is common among parents of gay children. While the religion itself does not create a problem, it is the individual. However, in my experience, Jewish parents tend to be more accepting of their gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender children. This tends to be because Jewish parents are “more liberal.”

  
 

John Wofford
October 25, 2011 at 10:15 am # 

Geoff–
Fair points, all of them. I think there’s a huge difference in how Jews who don’t accept LGBT persons and Christians who do the same actually think about what they’re doing. For most Jews, it’s exactly the reasons you’re talking about: carrying on the bloodline, assumptions about Torah, etc. For a lot of Christians, it’s more wrapped up in gender questions from “St.” Paul’s epistles, and his heavy focus on gender roles as divinely ordained rather than socially constructed. Also, there’s a trend of fear in Christianity about the loss of one’s masculinity. I’m not sure what it stems from, but it’s pretty prevalent, or at least was in my experiences as a former Christian.

  


 








 


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Forward Forum

You Can't Pray the Gay Away
'Reparative Therapy' for Gays is Bad Science, Bad Religion
By Jay Michaelson
Published February 24, 2012, issue of March 02, 2012.
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‘Reparative therapy” for gays and lesbians, which attempts to “change” sexual orientation and is neither reparative nor therapy, is the last gasp of bad theology.

Not Going To Change: You can’t ‘pray the gay away,’ Jay Michaelson writes.
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Not Going To Change: You can’t ‘pray the gay away,’ Jay Michaelson writes.
It exists to solve a theological crisis. On the one hand, Jews are told that God loves us and that “it is not good… to be alone.” (Genesis 2:18) On the other hand, the longstanding over-application of two verses in Leviticus condemns thousands of Jews to a life of deceit, self-loathing and aloneness.
In response to this crisis, the vast majority of American Jews have chosen to read the verses more narrowly. On their face, and as understood by Rashi, these verses apply to only one sexual act between men. They exist in the context of prohibitions against idolatry, from a specific historical time. So there is no reason to read them so broadly as to harm hundreds of thousands of gay and lesbian Jews. To do so may have made sense before we understood human sexuality — but it doesn’t anymore.
Some Jews, however, are still trying to save the old, overbroad interpretation. They do this by maintaining, despite the evidence, that there are no gay and lesbian Jews at all. We are simply engaging in homosexual acts, and our choice or propensity to do so is changeable.
This view has been discredited by the scientific community and by the lives of countless gay men and lesbians. But it has resurfaced in the rightward flank of the Orthodox movement: in a “Torah Declaration on Homosexuality,” signed in January by a number of Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox rabbis, and in a recent op-ed in these pages, by Avi Shafran of Agudath Israel.
This view is overtly a response to the theological crisis stated above. As the Torah Declaration states, “The concept that G-d created a human being who is unable to find happiness in a loving relationship unless he violates a biblical prohibition is neither plausible nor acceptable.”
Unfortunately, it is also demonstrably false. And like the medieval Catholic Church desperately defending the view that the sun revolves around the Earth, rabbis spouting bad science make religion look foolish. Worse, they cause very real abuse suffered by very real people.
Here are facts: Homosexuality is a trait. Due, like most traits, to a combination of nature and nurture, it is basically unchangeable. There is indeed evidence that, as the pop song has it, we are “born this way”: Neuroscientist Simon LeVey’s 2010 book “Gay, Straight, and the Reason Why,” for example, discusses studies showing how the hypothalamus — the region of the brain most responsible for sexual behavior — is different in gay men and straight men, with gay men’s more closely resembling that of women.
But apart from neuroscience, LGBT people are people. There are millions of us, and we are capable of understanding and communicating our own experience. And we are reporting that sexuality is a trait, part of our souls, and something to celebrate and affirm — that it’s a gift and not a predicament. Are all of us really so deluded that our testimony cannot be taken seriously?
(Incidentally, that some people experience their sexuality as fluid, and not reducible to a simple gay/straight binary, does not change the experience of the rest of us.)
We also know that “reparative therapy” is fruitless. Exodus International, the Christian “ex-gay” organization, has never released statistics showing its success rates, obviously because the rates are abysmal. Indeed, many of the founders of Exodus itself are now leading proudly gay lives and disavowing their previous ideas.
In fact, recent Exodus literature has given up on the notion that sexual orientation can be changed. Really, they say, the best that one can hope for — and the kind of “success” Shafran speaks of — is that men can “function sexually” with women, hopefully with only a few relapses.
Is this really “success”? A gay man fantasizing about other men while he “functions sexually” with his wife? I wonder if anyone has asked his wife.
But, of course, the real story is even worse, because “reparative therapy” is not merely fruitless; it is harmful. For every isolated “success” story, there are hundreds of horror stories. As the director of Nehirim, a national LGBT Jewish organization, I have met many young men who suffered through sexual abuse at the hands of unlicensed “therapists.” I have met others who were clearly traumatized by the brainwashing that such people put them through. One even had to strip naked and touch his genitals in the presence of a supposedly ex-gay “life coach.” Do you think well-meaning parents would send their children to such places if they knew what was in store for them?
For this reason, rabbis and Jewish leaders like Shafran have a responsibility to objectively investigate the validity of “reparative therapy” and offer informed advice, unclouded by a theological wish that the scientific data were otherwise.
This is why I applaud the recent decision by the (Orthodox) Rabbinical Council of America not to allow a Jewish “reparative therapy” organization — headed by an ex-felon, incidentally, and with no medical or psychiatric professionals on staff — to carry their endorsement. It’s an intellectually respectable and important first step.
To maintain that this abusive, fraudulent sham might conceivably be a good idea is to put a stumbling block in front of unknowing but well-meaning parents. This is why those of us concerned with the psychological, spiritual and physical well-being of klal yisrael have objected so loudly to anyone who endorses it. Because real lives are at stake.
We say this not because of our cultural perspective, nor even our perspective on Torah. Rather, we say it because of the scientific facts and the psychological realities, and because of the many people we know who have been harmed. There is a reason, as Shafran admits, that no “mainstream medical professionals” advocate praying away the gay. It doesn’t help, and usually harms. To pretend that there is any real controversy about this because of a handful of unnamed, uncredentialed “others” is dishonest, even if it solves a theological problem.
It also makes Judaism look ignorant and backward. Ironically, the “Herculean” efforts to read those two Torah verses narrowly — decried by Shafran and the Torah Declaration — are far more likely to maintain the beauty of the Jewish way of life than tortured efforts to hitch theology to pseudoscience.
Eventually, the folly of “reparative therapy” will be as obvious as that of Galileo’s persecutors. But in the meantime, we cannot allow even one more parent to unwittingly send a child to be abused. The price of bad theology must not be paid by innocent young adults.
Jay Michaelson is the author, most recently, of “God vs. Gay? The Religious Case for Equality” (Beacon, 2011).


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truth1978   · 85 weeks ago

So one might say, very well -- Michaelson and Orthodox Jews don't see eye to eye, so live and let live. Not so fast, says Michaelson. You see, "Some Jews, however, are still trying to save the old, overbroad interpretation." That would be us, the Orthodox Jews. So just like that, in one fell swoop, Michaelson informs us that our millennia-old tradition of biblical interpretation is "old" and "overbroad". Got that, you moldy Ortho-discriminators? You'd better change the way you interpret Torah, or else. Says commenter "marjemkalter": we "are on the wrong side of history and the wrong side of moral law". Sounds pretty sinister, doesn't it? In Canada, preachers can already be fined or jailed for stating their faith-based stance on homosexuality. How long before that comes to the US?

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truth1978   · 85 weeks ago

Let's put the Michaelson article in perspective. This is not an appeal to "live and let live" -- homosexuals already enjoy the complete liberty to live openly as they choose. They are receiving the insurance benefits of married couples and we're on an inevitable social trend to grant them full recognition of "marriage". Michaelson is not speaking on behalf of a beleaguered, persecuted group -- but rather is a tentacle of a powerful and wealthy lobby.
Being a professional writer, Michaelson is well-versed in the art of manipulation. Just look at the titles:
"You Can't Pray the Gay Away" and "Gays Are Born That Way, Just as Jewish as Anyone Else" -- superb strawmen, both. Praying the gay away is something some Christian groups might engage in, but the Jewish group JONAH emphatically declares that this does not work (has Michaelson even bothered to look at their page and read their statements?). And as for "Just as Jewish as Anyone Else" -- is anyone claiming that a person with same-sex attractions (or even one who acts on them) is somehow not Jewish?
To summarize so far: Michaelson uses the dishonest tactic of suggesting that the Jewish group JONAH tries to
"pray the gay away" (which is false and also makes it sound like one of the Christian groups -- well done!), and also suggests that the Orthodox Jews who maintain the traditional Rabbinical interpretation of bibilical prohibitions of homosexual behavior are somehow denying that homosexuals are Jews. Not bad for the first two lines!
Then there is the usual tired claim of "abuse" at the hand of the JONAH therapists. A total of two men have spoken in public about their bad experience with JONAH counselors. Where are these "hundreds of horror stories"? Also, with all this talk of rationality and "science" -- given an obviously troubled man such as Chaim Levin, how can you tell which of his problems are due to JONAH and which are due to other factors such as childhood abuse? Mind passing over the crystal ball? And what about even a symbolic, off-handed mention of the one or two men who say they have benefitted from JONAH (hundreds, in reality)? This is the closest the article comes to that admission: "Incidentally, that some people experience their sexuality as fluid, and not reducible to a simple gay/straight binary, does not change the experience of the rest of us".

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truth1978   · 85 weeks ago

Has Michaelson changed the second title from "Gays Are Born That Way, Just as Jewish as Anyone Else" to "'Reparative Therapy' for Gays is Bad Science, Bad Religion" in response to my criticism? I suppose I'm flattered.

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FEngels   · 85 weeks ago

One of the greatest poskim of his generation, R. Dov Lesser, ztsal, told me that the verses from Leviticus mentioned in this article do not refer to homosexuality.
Instead, they refer to anal intercourse or sodomy which can be done by a man and woman as well as two men. It cannot be done by two women. Because of this and the fact that lesbians are no where mentioned in Torah per se, he and most classical scholars conclude that the Torah not only doesn't condemn homosexuality ( its from nature and the Torah doesn't condemn natural phenomena, he said) but also that outside of sodomy the Torah doesn't condemn sex between people of the same sex.
Of course, most orthodox will find the above startling not to mention threatening.
But what else would you expect from people who daily commit the sin of worshiping idols ( ie. man instead of G-d) or avodah zorah.

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Jessica Hoffman  · 85 weeks ago

Actually, there's another law that contributes to the conclusion that two men should not be sexually involved with each other, even without sodomy. It applies to heterosexual encounters, as well, just as you said. It is the law that one shall not waste seed. A man who "wastes seed" knowing that there is no possibility, not even a tiny percentage, that their partner could become pregnant, is committing a sin directly from the Torah and confirmed in the Oral Law, as well.
I am Orthodox and the reason I don't find what R' Lesser said startling or threatening is because it's not fully fleshed out. He did not think of, perhaps, the concept of wasting seed. So even if it could be interpreted that the Torah does not condemn homosexuality because the pasuk is speaking about homosexuality for the purpose of idolatry, the law against wasting seed would condemn it the rest of the way.
And while many married couples don't use birth control at all, those who do use it fall into a different category of Torah laws regarding maintaining a healthy and happy marriage.
All of these comments are arguments are being made without all the info. The fact is, God wouldn't give us a condemnation unless He knew it might be an issue. The world and science are catching up to the Torah, not the other way around. Only this past week, doctors in Great Britain discovered that GID (gender identity disorder) is caused by an actual chemical misfiring in the brain, which explains why most patients who undergo sexual reassignment surgery and hormone therapy continue to feel the symptoms of GID even after they've changed genders, and that the most healthy way to treat GID would be to develop medication to correct that chemical misfire...much like meds for bipolar disorder. It's a slippery slope to "corrective medication" for homosexuality. I wonder how the author of this article might feel about that.

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truth1978   · 85 weeks ago

Thank you for that gem, rabbitonyjutner! I was going to copy it here in full, in case you become embarrassed by it and try to delete it later. But then I checked out your IntenseDebate profile -- it's like it's out of a comic book. Here is a sample comment of rabbitonyjutner: "Kudos. I agree with israeli100 (although he should change his name because it is offensive). I think that zionist professors should be dismissed from the UC system, because the concept of zionism in a progressive institution is an oxymoron. I hope that Shani will sign on to BDS so the zionist entity can be placed into the dustbin of history".
Go ahead -- take a good look, folks. There's 40 comments over there. Google NewJudaism -- it's not a joke (at least not an intentional one). Now rabbitonyjutner may well be a troll and a provocateur with a lot of time on his/her hands. But the sentiments he/she espouses are quite real.
So, all of you progressives out there -- did you get a good look? This is the face of your movement. Are you reading this, Jay Michaelson? rabbitonyjutner is certainly on the right side of history and moral law. Who's on board?
[As an G-d fearing Jew, I have no doubt that this NewJudaism won't even merit a footnote in history books a century from now -- along with other perverse aberrations. But enjoy the thrill while it lasts!]

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D___   · 85 weeks ago

It's an interesting article that really makes one think.
A related topic, one that Michaelson barely mentions, is bisexuality. I know little about it, but do know of a few women who split up with their female partners and began relationships with men. I once had a college roommate who was bisexual.
Human sexual attraction is a very complicated thing. Some try to suggest that everyone is either 100% straight or 100% gay, but research has shown that it isn't quite this simple. There are many who have some feelings for those of the same sex, but their attraction to the opposite gender is much stronger. There are also those who are truly bisexual. From what I've read, the numbers of bisexual men and women may be slightly higher than the numbers of those who feel attraction for only those of the same gender. It's hard to know for sure because there are a number of conflicting studies out there.
Here's where the issue gets extremely thorny. Should a bisexual man who decides to marry a woman subdue his feelings for other men? What if he has a family, but later decides to leave his wife because he also has feelings for another man? Should we just say, "It's ok that you left your wife and kids, and we support you on your quest to explore life with another man? Should a bisexual woman involved in a long and caring relationship with another woman suppress her feelings for men? Is it ok if she leaves her longtime partner to hook up with a man? Some have suggested trying to have it both ways--perhaps allowing a man to be married to a woman while also being intimate with another man. Can Judaism support this?
There are many who are very torn about these issues, but they are issues that can't be swept under the rug.

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levinjf   · 85 weeks ago

People who call the traditional Jews "fossils" on the way out, and enlightened New Jews as the next big wave, know nothing of demographics. Every serious population study points unmistakably that in 100 years the vast majority of people in America who we would recognize as Jews will be descended from today's traditional Jews, and while the "New Jews" may have a few kids--not enough to replace them-- their descendants in 100 years will NOT be Jewish in any meaningful sense. I've met several nice American Gentiles who had a Jewish ancestor in 19th Century America--a Reform Jewish ancestor. Try to find an American Jew today whose ancestors attended a Reform Temple before 1900.

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3 replies  · active 85 weeks ago


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Moshe of Rockville  · 85 weeks ago

levinjf: sorry to puncture your beliefs, but I have also known Jews who have descended from non-Jews.Indeed, such projections that you refer to have no meaning in the reality of guess work.Such predictions are valueless for no one can predict the future with any degree of certainty.

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truth1978   · 85 weeks ago

But which, statistically, is more likely -- an unobservant or Reform Jew not having Jewish descendants or a non-Jew having a Jewish ones?

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levinjf   · 85 weeks ago

You're right of course; the Orthodox may start having only one or two children, while Jewish Reform gay couples will start having 10 or 12 kids, just like the Haredim today! Perhaps you can cite examples from history where such population demographic turnarounds actually occurred? If projections based on actual statistics have no meaning, all the insurance companies would go out of business. They bet on such projections, and seem to be doing all right.

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BillP51   · 85 weeks ago

My mother was an interior designer for many years and had contact with many gay people, some has friends. She told me that it was a difficult life in a number of facets. Nobody would choose it on their own.
Having said that it used to be the love that dare not speak its name. Now its the love that doesn't shut its mouth. I really wish the gay activists would give it a rest already.

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rabbitonyjutner   · 85 weeks ago

This is another reason why NewJudaism is destined to triumph and leave fossil rabbinical Judaism in the dustbin of history. We at NewJudaism welcome the bravery of not only coming out of the closet and challenging the corrupt autocracy of fossil Judaism, but their ability to attack other golden calves of fossil Judaism such as kashrut and circimcusion. Witness the exposure of pinkwashing as a futile attempt of the zionist entity to rebrand itself. Gay activist serve as our shock troops, that will lead a replacement of fossil Judaism with our trinity of Social Justice, Economic Justice, and Rights of Return of Endogenous Peoples, especially the Palestinians
Amandlaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! See you at the Harvard One State Conference in March 3-4

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truth1978   · 85 weeks ago

Thank you for that gem, rabbitonyjutner! I was going to copy it here in full, in case you become embarrassed by it and try to delete it later. But then I checked out your IntenseDebate profile -- it's like it's out of a comic book. Here is a sample comment of rabbitonyjutner: "Kudos. I agree with israeli100 (although he should change his name because it is offensive). I think that zionist professors should be dismissed from the UC system, because the concept of zionism in a progressive institution is an oxymoron. I hope that Shani will sign on to BDS so the zionist entity can be placed into the dustbin of history".
Go ahead -- take a good look, folks. There's 40 comments over there. Google NewJudaism -- it's not a joke (at least not an intentional one). Now rabbitonyjutner may well be a troll and a provocateur with a lot of time on his/her hands. But the sentiments he/she espouses are quite real.
So, all of you progressives out there -- did you get a good look? This is the face of your movement. Are you reading this, Jay Michaelson? rabbitonyjutner is certainly on the right side of history and moral law. Who's on board?
[As an G-d fearing Jew, I have no doubt that this NewJudaism won't even merit a footnote in history books a century from now -- along with other perverse aberrations. But enjoy the thrill while it lasts!]

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SC&A   · 85 weeks ago

Well, I'm more worrfied about fossil Islam and the scores of deaths sentences served against gays in the Islamic. Maybe that is why so many gay Muslims seek refuge in Israel- they are free to live their lives in peace and without fear.
Still, you concern is gratifying. Are you familiar with the works of Irshad Manji and Nonie Darwish?
Also, the Syrian psychiatrist Wafa Sultan offers up excellent insights into the dysfunctional Arab mind. She has published lots.

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 Moshe of Rockville's avatar 
Moshe of Rockville  · 85 weeks ago

The "rabbit" is still peddling his bigotry. His/her hatred of the Jew,Judaism and/or the Jewish State is well-known. His line is well understood,but not appreciated by anyone who understands the contributions made by Jewish civilization,including our faith,its revolutionary monotheism and the individuals inspired by its teachings.As stated so many times in the political sphere, the "rabbit" is entitled to his/her opinion,but not his facts,colored with so much disgusting, barbaric hate that he/she will disappear in the dustbins of history.

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@DanielHorowitz3  · 86 weeks ago

Neglecting the simple fact that if the Torah is divine, it does NOT change based on history or social mores, I find it disturbing that Mr. Michaelson is so disingenuous with his readers.
He uses Exodus, with its scores of members who have been unsuccessful with change, as a proof to the fallacy of reparative therapy. (I myself once worked with a man who was abused by one of their “leaders.”) However, Exodus’s own website states: “Some within the Exodus network have found this type of therapy to be beneficial, though it is not a method Exodus employs or endorses.” They instead do rely on praying it away, which of course is ineffective.
Secondly, does he truly have “hundreds” of horror stories? If so then he should gather with those men and press charges against their perpetrators. I suspect it is far fewer, if even more than the two on the video.
And what are his statistics of those who used LICENSED therapists? You get what you pay for. If someone goes to a medicine man to cure their cancer and still remain ill, does that impugn the work of the people at Sloan Kettering?
I am curious to hear what Mr. Michaelson's response to these questions would
 be.
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Ken Sperber  · 85 weeks ago

"if the Torah is divine, it does NOT change based on history or social mores. . ." This theological assertion is a rejection of the entire enterprise of rabbinic tradition. That's fine, but it is not normative Rabbinic Judaism.

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morganfrost   · 86 weeks ago

I do feel sorry for Mr. Michaelson, but he's not going to interpret this prohibition away. Nor is it reasonable to argue that, because someone has a particular inclination, it must be good for him to act on it. Alcoholics are naturally inclined towards drinking-- they, of all people, should not. Some people are very much inclined to fight whenever the opportunity arises, and others enjoy cruelty. Society requires all of these people to curb their impulses.
Michaelson's endless carping over what he wishes Judaism taught on this subject arises not from any particular analysis or serious theological position on his part, but from his stubborn insistence that Judaism and the Torah conform to him, rather than the other way around.

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marjemkalter   · 86 weeks ago

Morganfrost, YOU are the one is is trying to re-interpret reality. You are on the wrong side of history and the wrong side of moral law.

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morganfrost   · 86 weeks ago

Oh, well, thanks; I guess that settles it.

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@azigra  · 86 weeks ago

Morganfrost, there is nothing to be settled. There are just the facts and decency and you dont have either of them.

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morganfrost   · 86 weeks ago

I see-- you argue points almost as well as marjemkalter.

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Dan_O2   · 86 weeks ago

How condescending can you get? Comparing sexual orientation to addiction, aggression, and psychopathy?
If the problem were merely theological, there would be no need to go there. You could say that The Torah is clear on an issue, and leave it at that. But instead, you insist on presenting homosexuality as a disease. That's on level with Shafran. A low level.

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morganfrost   · 86 weeks ago

You mean comparing an inclination towards unnatural acts to an inclination towards substance abuse? Actually, I can get a lot more condescending (and your fatuous arguments are certainly pushing me in that direction).
I like lobster; you like off-beat sexual practices. According to the Torah, we're both SOL. Sorry.

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Dan_O2   · 86 weeks ago

If you had limited your discussion to your views on Torah, I'd have less trouble, but you stooped to homophobia instead, as if to grind home your point. And here, yet again, you display it. I like many people who happen to be gay, and I respect many more. But I'm straight.

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morganfrost   · 86 weeks ago

Hmmm..... I don't recall having asked you about your preferences. Interesting that you had to share them. You seem pretty worked up.

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Dan_O2   · 86 weeks ago

Not at all, buddy boy.

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oaklandj   · 86 weeks ago

Torah says what Torah says, as ambiguous as it is on supposed prohibitions on homosexuality. http://livelonger.hubpages.com/hub/leviticus-homo...
Halakha is ever-evolving. One day, probably not too far in the future, gay people won't be condemned and forced to live a life of misery to appease other people's sanctimony.

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morganfrost   · 86 weeks ago

No, the Torah isn't really evolving this way. What you're asking for is more than a re-interpretation; rather, it's a complete break with the past, and a rejection of clear-cut interpretations that have been around throughout Jewish history. I'm not trying to convince you to like the halakha; merely to recognize that it isn't going to change because you don't.

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oaklandj   · 86 weeks ago

I happen to view the arc of Jewish theology, and what it portends for the future, differently than you do. And considering relatively few Jews demonize gay people, especially younger people, I suspect the trend is my friend.
We'll see, Morgan. Or, rather, we won't. We will be dead before we can see how the evolution of Judaism will happen.

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BROOKBI   · 85 weeks ago

God never changes, the way he felt about gay people in the past is the way he feels now and the way he will feel in the future...it's a sin. God is our creator and has the right to say what is right or wrong. No matter how mankind feels about any given subject, only God has the right to determine how he views it ...and then it does not change.

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oaklandj   · 85 weeks ago

I'm curious, are you Jewish or Christian? If you are Christian, why do you feel your personal or doctrinal opinion on homosexuality is in any way relevant to a discussion on the topic among Jews?

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morganfrost   · 86 weeks ago

Oakland, you don't "view the arc of Jewish theology" at all. You don't know Hebrew, you haven't stuidied Jewish theology, I doubt you could work your way through a page of the Talmud... you're just looking for validation where you aren't going to find it. Frankly, that's your business, and (for the record) I'm not demonizing you. But I'm also not offering up the unconditional validation you seem to crave (nor am I seeking yours). You want some kind of Jewish imprimatur on your lifestyle? Try Reform or even Conservative. If you need everyone else to abandon a few thousand years of law and tradition so you can stop feeling guilty, I really don't see it happening. If that's not what you want, then why do you keep arguing with me? I honestly don't care how you live your life, as long as it doesn't involve me.

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oaklandj   · 86 weeks ago

It would help if you actually read instead of launching into a tirade. I stated my beliefs. I don't care what yours are, and frankly, I don't respect them. Beliefs like yours have caused gay & lesbian people a lot of unnecessary grief over the years.
Neither of us know how Judaism will evolve in the future, and your "knowledge" of Talmud and Hebrew won't get you any farther than it does me.
As others have suggested, I'm beginning to see your posts as simple trolling, so I won't bother responding after this. Continue this thread with a sockpuppet if you like.

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morganfrost   · 86 weeks ago

I thought I was carrying on this thread with a sockpuppet.

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Ken Sperber  · 85 weeks ago

"You don't know Hebrew, you haven't stuidied Jewish theology, I doubt you could work your way through a page of the Talmud. . ." Suffice it to say I do "know Hebrew," have "studied Jewish theology," and can indeed "work my way through a page of Talmud." Your statement that, "the Torah isn't really evolving this way" is incorrect. Thousands of years of rabbinic tradition illustrate this on every page. Torah in normative Jewish rabbinic tradition always has evolved in ways both incremental and radical and inevitably continues to do so. The insistance that it does not is a modern invention itself at odds with authentic normative rabbinic tradition. This does not mean that a particular conclusion on a particular question is forced--it is not--but the process of evolution and inevitability of multiple valid but mutually exclucsive conclusions is the core of rabbinic Jewish tradition. To deny this is to deny everything.

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Morganfrost   · 85 weeks ago

Well, OK, Rabbi-- so let's pursue your claim. I won't ask for illustrations "on every page." Let's start with a simple illustration of your point-- find me a single d'oraisa halakha that existed in Talmudic times that has been rescinded.

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Ken Sperber  · 85 weeks ago

Many an excellent book has been penned on the subject of the nature and development of halacha. If that you are asking shows a desire to learn, I am not volunteering to do the teaching. Of course there is always the chance that what your question really implies is that you think you already know everything and believe you actually have nothing further to learn on the subject in which case I am *certainly* not volunteering.
I will, however, tell anyone following the thread that in talmudic times if a man disappeared in a body of water large enough that the opposite shore could not be seen he was presumed still living as perhaps he had survived to the opposite shore. Thus, *d'oraisah,* his wife was an agunah in Talmudic times. The Chatam Sofer, however, no liberal it should be noted, ruled in the 18th century that in light of the advent of then modern means of communication that such a man could indeed be presumed dead and his widow free to remarry for had such a man survived he would undoubtedly have gotten word back home. Thus, children from the woman's next marriage who would have been *mamzerim* for the Talmud are perfectly fine according to the Chatam Sofer in the 18th century. The fact is, halacha evolves for all kinds of reasons, as this case illustrates changing technological realities among them.
Of course we also know the Torah clearly sentences the rebellious child to death and the Talmud itself models for us how to approach such a pasuk such that it becomes effectively nullified and Hillel illustrates yet another--still more radical--way to nullify clear Torah law when he invents a way out of the cancellation of debts at the end of the 7th year of the 7 year cycle. You may not like masechet Sanhedrin, or Hillel, or the Chatam Sofer, or the Tzitz Eliezer (who ruled a generation ago that a hearing impaired person could use an electric hearing aid on Shabbat), or literally countless others, but the reality remains it is you not they that is outside normative rabbinic tradition in your insistance that Halacha does not evolve. It does and it always did. The claim that it does not is a modern invention and a deviation from normative rabbinic tradition.

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morganfrost   · 85 weeks ago

Whoa. First, you know perfectly well that your first example is a bit of a stretch. The principles illustrated in the Talmudic passage in question were in no way reversed by the Chatam Sofer-- the rulings on those issues are very fact specific.
Second, your second example is completely non-responsive. The Talmudic interpretation is understood to be the correct application of the halakha-- not a reversal thereof (which is why I specified post-Talmudic changes in my question). And, since you've already explained to me the extent of your erudition, I can only conclude that you knew that perfectly well, and were trying to mislead "anyone following the thread." I'd expect a bit more candor from a Torah scholar.

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Ken Sperber  · 85 weeks ago

Not misleading at all. I am not intentionally saying something I know to be untrue in order to mislead. That's silly. I just disagree with you. Disagreement with someone is not automatically a sign that they are "misleading" are speaking with a lack of "candor." To anyone interested in the subject I recommend for further reading Joel Roth's The Halakhic Process, A Systemic Analysis; Eliezer Berkovits' Not in Heaven, The Nature and Function of Halakha; Some of Daniel Sperber's (no relation) books are enlightening; Eliott Dorff's books on the subject. Expect morganfrost to now explain why each of these scholars is wrong, or "misleading," or the like. That's ok, though it would probably be better to study them first. If you might pick just one from the list, for my money go to R. Roth's book.

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morganfrost   · 85 weeks ago

You were being misleading. I suspect you know why, but, for the benefit of any outsider who still cares about this thread, a Talmudic clarification of a d'oraisa is not a reversal of the d'oraisa, by definition-- it's part of the oral tradition, and a necessary part of the d'oraisa. Moreover, a discussion in the Talmud is not the same as psak halakha. Finally, reciting a list of books isn't helping your argument, nor, in any rational argument, does naming a book oblige your opponent to refute your understanding of the book in detail. Your obfuscations aside, you have not named a single d'oraisa halakha that has been reversed in the last 2,000 years. Claiming that our understanding of halakha "evolves" in no way changes that fact. Normative halakhic Judaism has not, will not, and can not validate homosexual unions.

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Samuel Torjman Thomas  · 85 weeks ago

Well put. Thanks for the eloquent defense of the evolutionary nature of true normative rabbinic tradition and your clearly argued case that what we see today is radicalism in modern Jewish thought. Halakhic Judaism today resembles Karaites...but just of the Oral Torah instead of the Written Torah.

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38 Responses to “24th Annual Lambda Literary Award Finalists Announced” Richard Fumosa 11 June 2012 at 4:12 PM # I’m really thrilled that The Two Krishnas, by Ghalib Shiraz Dhalla, which I acquired for Alyson Books, finally found a home and is a finalist for Best Bisiexual Fiction - See more at: http://www.lambdaliterary.org/foundation-updates/03/20/24th-annual-lambda-literary-award-finalists-announced/#sthash.z5OHEXay.dpuf








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ShadrachSmith
• 2 years ago   △ ▽
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The irony of excluding gays is best expressed in a lyric by the Austin Lounge Lizards:  "Jesus loves me, but he can't stand you."
The gays absolutely stand on the moral high-ground on this issue.
   
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Catholics for Equality
A VERY NICE EASTER EGG FOR CATHOLICS FOR EQUALITY!
 The Advocate's review of religious people and groups advancing LGBT human rights includes Catholics for Equality. This is a very wonderful compliment to us and this recognition really gives us a sense of Resurrection even as we face the long struggle within our church, especially the aggressive politics of the hierarchy trying to defeat every LGBT rights measure in the U.S. and internationally! Thank you, Trudy Ring and The Advocate!

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 · April 6, 2012 at 10:49am



Joseph Palacios · Consultant at Hughes Research Laboratories
We are mentioned on page 9!

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 · April 6, 2012 at 10:51am
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Fred Martin Wolfe
Giving thanks today for you all, and praying for the day when your message is heard and accepted far and wide across the church of Rome.

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 · April 7, 2012 at 4:39am
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David Stevens ·  Top Commenter · IUPUI · 115 subscribers
Carter is the real deal. Thank you

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 · April 6, 2012 at 6:59am



Jeffrey Marks ·  Top Commenter · Cincinnati, Ohio
I agree. It always floors me that the evangelicals had a true born again in the WH and had no clue what to do with him!

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 · April 6, 2012 at 9:07am
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David Stevens ·  Top Commenter · IUPUI · 115 subscribers
Jeffrey Marks it shows the ignorance and stupidity that reighns. <sp?>

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 · April 6, 2012 at 9:09am
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Caitlyn Behnke ·  Top Commenter · Server at Emeritus · 260 subscribers
David Stevens Reigns* (:

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 · April 8, 2012 at 4:55am
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Jeffrey Nelson
Thank you for this story. As a priest and committed Christian, it always saddens me that religion and religious people are accused wholesale of homophobia and non-acceptance. Granted, all religion and perhaps the Christian Church especially has a long history of hate for which it is in desperate need of repentance. But not all of us are the Christian stereotype often portrayed in the media and who flock in droves to the likes of Rick Santorum and the Republican Party. Many of us see acceptance not merely as the politically correct thing to do, but as the issue of our faith in God who calls us, above all, to love God and love the neighbor. Hatred is not part of the way of God, and any who espouse hatred in the name of God, no matter their religious affiliation, are not of God. Thanks to all allies of faith!

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 · April 6, 2012 at 9:51am







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Blaine Andrew
Don't forget Axios either; the Eastern Orthodox Christian organization for LGBT equality.
 Also, to everyone out there saying, "Forget about religion." "Religion's a joke." or "Religion is the root of all evil." Just remember that you are losing allies that way. I am a gay Orthodox Christian and my homosexuality has not caused my faith to falter, but rather to strengthen. I have many religious friends who are our allies. We cannot divide our community. We must be willing to accept the entire LGBT community and our allies or we will never be able to accomplish anything.

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 · April 6, 2012 at 2:08pm



Brian Durham
Agreed. As a gay Eastern Catholic, I have to agree that my faith has been strengthened as well. The only problem is that the LGBT community within the Eastern Churches is more or less unheard of.

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 · April 12, 2012 at 3:56pm
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Hadrian Pethig ·  Top Commenter · New York, New York
I suppose I can understand the need to continually pander to the religious element in this country, but isn't this pushing things a bit? Allies?
 Look. The pious enjoy their own reality, where religion is only a force for good and never evil. Homophobia materialized seemingly at random. Gay people have only been accepted in recent years and what we know of Native Americans, ancient Greece and African Two-Spirits doesn't count for anything. The Pope may have said that marriage is under attack, but he didn't actually mean it. Gay teenagers kill themselves for no apparent reason. What? Leviticus? No. That's simply a matter of interpretation. Context. Proof texting. Phone banks. Some of my best friends.
 It's a bit like 1984. We've always been at war with Eastasia. We've never been at war with Eastasia. Reality is twisted inside out and back again.
 It's best to just move on. Our community is too precious to waste time on such frippery.

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 · April 6, 2012 at 8:57am



Ness PK ·  Top Commenter · Université de Sherbrooke
The constant need to "pander" for religious allies is, in my opinion, quite necessary. Not for self-approval, but for all of those LGBT christians, muslims, jews and so on who struggle with a big dilemma: I strongly believe in Him, but how come He wouldn't accept me. I am not one myself, but I can quite easily understand their need for a faith that accept them since they accept it. Therefore, let's not leave religion behind to those who manipulate it to exclude the piousest of the followers.

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 · April 6, 2012 at 10:51am
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Sam Molloy ·  Top Commenter
Hadrian, even Einstein came to realize things are too complicated to have just happened. Keep an open mind and don't let those pious a##holes

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 · April 6, 2012 at 10:46pm
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Sam Molloy ·  Top Commenter
cloud your vision.

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 · April 6, 2012 at 10:46pm
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Morgan Hoover ·  Top Commenter
David Walker,
 If you had ever been to the marriage equality rallies and legislatives hearings as I have in Massachusetts and Maryland time and time again, you would know she is speaking the truth.
 Gay and straight gay friendly clergy and people of faith have been in numbers and time and time again a visible and supportive part of these rallies in MA and testifying on the marriage equality side at the hearings in MD every time hearings were held by the MD legislature about MD marriage equality. I have personally seen and heard first hand them taking an active role for marriage equality at these events because I was right there.
 I believe Trudy.

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 · April 6, 2012 at 8:54am







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Anthony Berardo ·  Top Commenter · Rutgers University
Organized religion is the root of all evil! It only exists because man is afraid of death. Many of the founding father's of this country were deists--the Age of Reason must prevail.

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 · April 6, 2012 at 9:47am







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Todd O'Dell · Chattanooga, Tennessee
Love President Carter, If any of you ever get the chance to attend his Sunday School Class in Plains Ga. do. I have been blessed to attend 4 of them he is a wondeful man and a world leader.

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 · April 6, 2012 at 10:47am







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Charlie Brydon · Seattle, Washington
Heartening to read the comments by President Carter. As a participant in the first White House meeting to present the concerns of gay people at that level, I have wondered for many years how the President responded. When Assistant to the President Midge Costanza, who organized the meeting, was sacked not long thereafter, many people were disappointed and wondered why that happened. Was it a signal to LGBT interests of the President's thinking? To my knowledge, Midge's sacking has never been explained. But that was then and this is now. Thank you President Carter.

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 · April 6, 2012 at 12:30pm







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Claude Summers ·  Top Commenter · General Editor at Glbtq.com
To go from Jimmy Carter to a fraud like James Alexander Langteaux who actively hurt glbt people is insulting.

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 · April 6, 2012 at 7:43am



Leah Paulsen-Austin
how about grace and forgiveness? One the right track now. Who are we to judge?

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 · April 6, 2012 at 4:37pm
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Claude Summers ·  Top Commenter · General Editor at Glbtq.com
Leah Austin James Alexander Langteaux has always been about himself. This is just a new career move for him. He'll probably join Fox News next week and declare himself an "ex-gay" if there is more money in it for him.

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 · April 6, 2012 at 6:03pm
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Andrea White · Promotions Producer at The Inspiration Networks
How did James Langteaux hurt LGBT people? I think you may be thinking of someone else! He has never advocated ex-gay minitries nor has he ever claimed to be an ex-gay. Also, this book is not a career move for him. He funded part of the books' publishing/promotion himself, was given no advance, quit his job in television and currently has no other income. If this is a career move for him, its a pretty risky wager as there are no certainties and no safety nets. I believe if we say anything negative about anyone, we should make sure we have our facts straight. People on both sides of the gay/God debate have had issues with him writing this book... So really don't see how anyone could say its a career move for him. He has everything to lose in writing this book.

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 · April 9, 2012 at 7:59am
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Claude Summers ·  Top Commenter · General Editor at Glbtq.com
Andrea White Anyone who has worked for Pat Robertson is no friend of mine. See this article on Queerty: http://www.queerty.com/self-serving-700-club-producer-repents-comes-out-and-writes-a-book-what-a-mensch-20120323/

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 · April 9, 2012 at 9:32am
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Andrea White · Promotions Producer at The Inspiration Networks
Claude Summers Pat Robertson is not my favorite person either... But he has always been known for saying crazy things so I don't take him very seriously. Back when James worked for him, he was not as vocal as he is today on the gay topic. Sad, but the Queerty article was written by a very hurting person, saying things about James that just aren't true. James has never claimed that anyone can be made straight and he has never claimed to be an ex-gay. James will be the first one to tell you he wishes it hadn't taken him a lifetime to become comfortable with his own sexuality and to fully accept God's love for him as a gay man. All of us have different stories and can only face our own truth when we are ready. I look at the next generation and see a much easier coming out story for them as the cultural mindset is shifting to more of inclusion and understanding. I'm sorry if you've experienced hate by anyone who calls themselves a Christian. You, as a people, have been misunderstood and mistreated by the church for far too long. Jesus would never had done or said any of the hateful things that have been done and said to your community. God forgive all of us for not showing more love and understanding.

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 · April 9, 2012 at 10:23am
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Claude Summers ·  Top Commenter · General Editor at Glbtq.com
Andrea White You must be a child (or think I am one) if you believe that Pat Robertson is more homophobic today than he was earlier in his career. Or that the 700 Club was not more homophobic when Langteaux produced it than it is now. I hope that Langteaux has repented the hurtful things he has done to gay people over the course of his career, and I hope that his book is helpful to closeted people. But I'm not quite ready to make a late convert a pope, nor do I think I am wrong to be suspicious of someone who sounds more like a huckster than an authentic voice of acceptance.

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 · April 9, 2012 at 11:24am
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Andrea White · Promotions Producer at The Inspiration Networks
Claude Summers You might be right about Pat Robertson. Maybe I am just paying more attention now than I used to. I know that James Langteaux never intended to hurt any gay people. Are you saying he hurt people through association? If someone is running from their own truth, how can they stand up for the truth of others? We all have our own way of making our lives small, not realizing how integrated our lives and communities are and the impact we have on others. If someone is drowning and just trying to survive in the circle of their own truth, how can they reach out to help pull others out? And how can they be held responsible for not saving others when until now, they couldn't even save themselves? Anyone who grows up in the church, loves God and also discovers they are gay has a really hard time reconciling these things. Most people either walk away from God or try denying their sexuality. When you try to live authentically in both worlds, you are blasted from both sides. What matters is that he is living authentically now. I understand your tenitiveness and you have a right to be cautious. I just don't want to see someone with such good intentions as James be badly spoken of before he even has the chance to live in the open and prove himself in this new landscape of freedom.

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 · April 9, 2012 at 1:04pm
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Claude Summers ·  Top Commenter · General Editor at Glbtq.com
Andrea White I hope you are right about James Langenteaux. My point in initially posting here is that it is outrageous to include someone like Langenteaux who has just acknowledged being a part of the gay community but has previously been associated with some of the most hateful homophobes in the country alongside someone like President Carter, who has lived his faith and has defended gay people.

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 · April 9, 2012 at 1:16pm
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Andrea White · Promotions Producer at The Inspiration Networks
Claude Summers I understand your perspective and where you were coming from with you post. I hope you and others give James Langteaux the chance to prove himself. I've actually enjoyed dialoguing with you today, it's been enlightening to hear your point of view. Thank you.

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 · April 9, 2012 at 1:24pm
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Andrea White · Promotions Producer at The Inspiration Networks
One last thought on comparing Jimmy Carter to James Langteaux... Jimmy Carter is not gay. James Langteaux is. I don't think you can compare their stories and say one has lived better than the other as they are markedly different.

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 · April 9, 2012 at 3:33pm
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Joseph Streich ·  Top Commenter · Works at Diversified Maintenance
Jesus Christ died for all peoples sins.

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 · April 9, 2012 at 6:36pm







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David Walker ·  Top Commenter
"xns on YOUR Side"? You're not gay, Trudy? Or your headline writer isn't? Why not "xns on OUR side"? Srsly.

Reply · 1 ·
 · April 6, 2012 at 6:52am



Dick Strawser · Eastman School of Music
not to mention the convenient lumping of Jews and Muslims under the convenient if inaccurate classification as "Christian"...

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 · April 6, 2012 at 7:00am
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David Speakman ·  Top Commenter · Ball State
It have to do with website Click-Through studies. Readers respond to the words "you" and "your" with clicks. People reading "our" in print see it as the publication talking about the self at the exclusion on the reader.

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 · April 6, 2012 at 8:36am
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Andrea White · Promotions Producer at The Inspiration Networks
Claude Summers you talk as if you know James Alexander Langteaux yet what you say isn't true. This book is not a career move for him involving any money. He funded part of the book himself, got no advance, left his job in television to promote it and currently has no income. Wondering where you got this? I believe if we say anything negative about anyone, we better know it for certain.

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 · April 9, 2012 at 4:01am







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Michael Manion ·  Top Commenter · Licensed Massage Therapist at Michaelshands · 168 subscribers
In allrelsions I learned that GOD is love. So when any people any where love one another there GOD is present to say other wise is anti-Christain and not the GOD that all religions embrace!

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 · April 6, 2012 at 10:55pm







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Niels J. Plougmann
I mourn the death of my boyfriend JAE 1967-1998...

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 · April 7, 2012 at 1:46pm



Jeremy Greig · Massillon, Ohio
My condolences Niel. I lost my partner of 6 years, February 7th of last year. One. step. at. a. time.

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 · April 7, 2012 at 3:42pm
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Niels J. Plougmann
I am so sorry for your loss Jeremy - all myLove and hugs to you rememberiing and strength to you. PM me if?

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 · April 7, 2012 at 4:32pm
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Niels J. Plougmann
I thought this grief would eventually go away - that the mourning would be less. It has not. A friend posted this on my FB page yesterday - since I was out of myself with grief - like I am every anniversary of the day I learned he had shot himself. I was not aware that it would be seen by others.

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 · April 8, 2012 at 12:36pm
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Paul Smith · Baldwin–Wallace College
Who really cares?

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 · April 7, 2012 at 6:28am







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Peter Aria Ricio
Holy Easter to all, my the Blood of Christ be always a beacon for those who need to show more their love, I am Catholic and I believe we need to show more our love to one another, what kind of World do we want to live in?

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 · April 8, 2012 at 10:43am







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Frum, Gay and MarriedApril 10, 2012 at 11:45 AM
This post is beautiful. I almost feel like it was written specifically for me. I am sure others will feel the same. It truly resonates. Even though my recent blog post on "Freedom" has a markedly different perspective, you hav accomplished what your goal in "Gotta Give em Hope" is. You have given me hope this morning.
Thank you.
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RockyApril 10, 2012 at 11:54 AM
My cousin sent me this video in honor of the Passover season:
http://americancomedynetwork.com/animation.html?bit_id=24646
"Matzo Man" is a parody of the disco tune "Macho Man" and first appeared on Saturday Night Live a few years ago. The original song was sung by the Village People in the late 1970's, along with their other popular tune "YMCA".
Lorne Michaels (born Lipowitz), the creator and producer of SNL, grew up in the heavily Jewish Forest Hill neighborhood of Toronto.
Sometimes laughing helps.
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Gnarlodious 53p  · 48 weeks ago

I wonder how many transJews are not commenting for fear of being identified...

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 Lisa Liel  · 48 weeks ago

Probably a lot. And can you blame them?

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 @HadaSadah  · 41 weeks ago

As a Transsexual Jew myself, I really enjoyed finding this in Forward!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you, it made my day the day this article came in the mail. Now I just wish I could have been there.

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Noshie63 66p  · 48 weeks ago

Why are their backs to the camera?Isn't this the "new normal"?I guess not.

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FriarYid 1p  · 47 weeks ago

Aren't people entitled to decide how much media exposure they want at a time?

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Noshie63 66p  · 47 weeks ago

I think they should be but very often journalists don't care and do what they want.Here the people were respected.

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 Duncan McCullough  · 42 weeks ago

Our backs were to the camera because we were in the middle of services and he didn't wish to interrupt. Also there were a few folks in attendance who didn't wish to be outed.

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Gnarlodious 53p  · 48 weeks ago

I wonder how many transJews are not commenting for fear of being identified...

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 Lisa Liel  · 48 weeks ago

Probably a lot. And can you blame them?

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 @HadaSadah  · 41 weeks ago

As a Transsexual Jew myself, I really enjoyed finding this in Forward!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you, it made my day the day this article came in the mail. Now I just wish I could have been there.

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Noshie63 66p  · 48 weeks ago

Why are their backs to the camera?Isn't this the "new normal"?I guess not.

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FriarYid 1p  · 47 weeks ago

Aren't people entitled to decide how much media exposure they want at a time?

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Noshie63 66p  · 47 weeks ago

I think they should be but very often journalists don't care and do what they want.Here the people were respected.

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 Duncan McCullough  · 42 weeks ago

Our backs were to the camera because we were in the middle of services and he didn't wish to interrupt. Also there were a few folks in attendance who didn't wish to be outed.

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 @HadaSadah  · 41 weeks ago

As a Transsexual Jew myself, I really enjoyed finding this in Forward!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you, it made my day the day this article came in the mail. Now I just wish I could have been there.

Read more: http://forward.com/articles/165708/transgender-jews-seek-place-at-table/?p=all#ixzz2i82fNfGB



FriarYid 1p  · 47 weeks ago

Aren't people entitled to decide how much media exposure they want at a time?

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Noshie63 66p  · 47 weeks ago

I think they should be but very often journalists don't care and do what they want.Here the people were respected.

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 Duncan McCullough  · 42 weeks ago

Our backs were to the camera because we were in the middle of services and he didn't wish to interrupt. Also there were a few folks in attendance who didn't wish to be outed.

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Read more: http://forward.com/articles/165708/transgender-jews-seek-place-at-table/?p=all#ixzz2i82oik00




















Newest | Oldest | Top Comments


Christopher Snyder
Christopher Snyder
Dec 1, 2012

Dr. OZ 's credibility is questionable. 
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boxeadora68
boxeadora68
Dec 1, 2012

These news media outlets which, in the name of journalistic balance, give a platform to ex-gay therapy "experts" would never think of inviting a health "expert" on their shows who advocated bleeding as a cure for whooping cough.
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robwriter
robwriter
Dec 1, 2012

Dr. Oz is a "celebrity" who stopped being a doctor some time ago.
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Conor Kabinett
Conor Kabinett
Dec 1, 2012

Just admit you are suffering from c*ckoholism, then go with it.
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qc
qc
Dec 1, 2012


@Conor Kabinett
works for you

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JeanPierreKatz
JeanPierreKatz
Dec 1, 2012


This story is very interesting to me.  Unfortunately I think that this issue is not covered adequately .I tried to urge the Jewish Press to cover the story of the lawsuit, but they have not. JONAH is one of their advertisers.
The story of the RCA stand also was not featured in the Jewish Press.
This  article  also omits a lot of information that would inform a reader about Orhodox Jewish positions on different gay issues.
First of all all RCA rabbis and all Orthodox rabbis do not downplay gay sex as just one of many commandments. They all consider sex between two men as completely forbidden even for non-Jews.
But they also emphasize that orientation in not a sin, and that gay Jews are still Jews and should be treated in the same way as other Jews that don't keep commandments.
RCA rabbis tend to be Modern Orthodox, so for example, many will agree with one Orthodox view that the world was not created in 6 calendar days, but that days in the Torah can mean eons. This healthy respect for science is probably part of the reason the RCA has never supported or rejected reparative therapy. It also has previously supported the right of a patient to reject any therapy he finds objectionable.
This new position which rejects reparative therapy is another step in this direction.
Many RCA rabbis also have signed a declaration that basically tries to promote inclusion of gays in Orthodox congregations with some stipulations.
But as often is the case in Orthodox Judaism there are differences of opinion.
The non modern element has put out another Declaration that completely supports reparative therapy.
It is based on a theology that G-d could not have created a gay sexual orientation. It also believes that same sex attractions can be eliminated in favor of opposite sex attractions.
This group is not in any way impressed with any scientific views that contradict their theology.
What is also telling in the Declaration is that it does  not in any way welcome gay Jews who are not trying to change their sexual orientation to come to or even to stay in Orthodox congregations.

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KOGnyc
KOGnyc
Dec 1, 2012

I would hope that the references to Dr. Oz are not relevant to anything other than the need to cite television and pop culture - he is somebody I have always respected and hope knows the difference between irrationality and actuality.
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Tommyboy
Tommyboy
Dec 1, 2012

Actually, he's one of the prime reasons for Zuckerman to shake up CNN.  This is exactly the entire network's problem.  With the exception of Anderson Cooper and Soledad O'Brien, they play the game of 'false equivalency' wherein they present "two sides to every story."  They believe that makes them "objective."  BUT there aren't 'two sides' to FACTS -- something Oz and others (notably Blitzer and Jon King) gloss over.  In the name of political correctness, Oz and those like him give support to crackpots and their ridiculous 'theories.'  It would be as if their science correspondent gave creedence to creationism.
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LelioRisen
LelioRisen
Dec 1, 2012


The moral equivalency practiced by the news media never ceases to disappoint.
Let us not forget that the Swift-boating of John Kerry was always made out to be a he said/she said type of story, even though the group was discredited. One would think that factual experts would receive more coverage than 21st century snake charmers, but that is obviously not the case.  Even birthers, for the longest time were treated as an equally valid viewpoint.
So, the shameful behavior by news outlets in this case is not surprising in the least.
@leliorisen

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jomama
jomama
Nov 30, 2012


We know that there is little correlation between 'genes' and 'gay' - this from the largest and most respected work on the subject (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation).
We 'become' gay in our lives, for one reason or another - we don't yet know why. If you can be socialized or programmed to be one thing - you can be programmed the other way as well.
Ethics aside, it's a fact. One day, there will be a therapy + drugs that will effectively do the job.
Then I think the question of ethics of the process takes on a new domain.

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qc
qc
Dec 1, 2012


@jomama
that's funny, actually

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jk105
jk105
Dec 1, 2012


@jomama
Wikipedia reports there is no conclusive evidence to prove there is a correlation.  That doesn't mean sexual orientation isn't innate. It just means science hasn't proven it yet.
If we "become" homosexual or "become" heterosexual, you certainly must remember the day you "became" heterosexual jomama.   It is an important day "becoming" heterosexual, no?    Can you describe that day for us please.  What were you wearing? 
Meanwhile torturing gay people with this abusive therapy is a sin.  it doesn't even work!

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txjew
txjew
Dec 1, 2012

@jomama We can say the same thing about gender. Maybe one day we can, via therapy and drugs,  end the male gender. But why would we?
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2MediaSaturatedqcLikeReply



jk105
jk105
Dec 1, 2012


@txjew @jomama
We can say the same thing about heterosexuality.  Maybe one day we can, via therapy and drugs, end heterosexuality.   But why would we?

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jazzleo
jazzleo
Dec 1, 2012

@txjew @jomama If jomama is male there is a perfect reason
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jazzleo
jazzleo
Dec 1, 2012

@jomama OMG-this is what makes people laugh at you
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qc
qc
Nov 30, 2012

naked rabbis cure gayness
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4KOGnycTommyboyMediaSaturatedjazzleoLikeReply



jomama
jomama
Nov 30, 2012

@qc that's funny actually.
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13 comments


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Larry Hall
Rom 1:26 God let them follow their own evil desires. Women no longer wanted to have sex in a natural way, and they did things with each other that were not natural.
 Rom 1:27 Men behaved in the same way. They stopped wanting to have sex with women and had strong desires for sex with other men. They did shameful things with each other, and what has happened to them is punishment for their foolish deeds.
 Rom 1:28 Since these people refused even to think about God, he let their useless minds rule over them. That's why they do all sorts of indecent things.
 Rom 1:29 They are evil, wicked, and greedy, as well as mean in every possible way. They want what others have, and they murder, argue, cheat, and are hard to get along with. They gossip,
 Rom 1:30 say cruel things about others, and hate God. They are proud, conceited, and boastful, always thinking up new ways to do evil. These people don't respect their parents.
 Rom 1:31 They are stupid, unreliable, and don't have any love or pity for others.
 Rom 1:32 They know God has said that anyone who acts this way deserves to die. But they keep on doing evil things, and they even encourage others to do them.

Reply · 1 ·
 · September 7 at 7:16pm



Tony Cates
Those are the opinions of the Apostle Paul, who also told you that no one who is single sould marry, unless you couldn't control yourself, because it's better to marry than burn with passion! See 1st Corinthians 7: 8-9. Why did Paul think the only reason to marry someone was because of lust & not love? Next time your wife asks you why you married her I hope she doesn't slap your face and leave when you explain that Paul said you should marry her if you wanted to get in her pants!Paul was a man, his letters are his letters, and his opinions are his opinions - Paul is not God, and his letters are not the Word of God!

Reply ·
 · September 7 at 10:18pm
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Alexander Ruiz ·  Top Commenter · The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom
Tony Cates that's God's truth and no matter how much you try to excuse it away. The truth will condemn you if you to acknowledge it for what is. God commanded men and women to be FRUITFUL and multiply. Homosexuals can't carry out God's orders, as sin robs them of honoring God. We're all here because of God's orders and will of man and women.

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 · September 8 at 12:32am
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W Dale Cebula · Works at I. Schumann
strictly speaking the whole of Marriage laws visa the state is for cases of divorce and death. the point of marriage in a religious instance is entirely separate from the civil understanding and we would all be better off understanding and living by that standard. the stupid thing about parts of this article is the focus on LGBT issues. I don't care much about this issue, but I feel that the notion of religious "left" or "right" is a manner of cherry picking what elements of Christianity on wishes to follow whereas the point of Christianity (and other religions for that matter) is to set aside one's pride and work to fulfill the work that God (or whomever) has in mind for one to do.

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 · September 8 at 4:01am







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Alexander Ruiz ·  Top Commenter · The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom
The religious left? God's word has no such term. Either one is saved, sanctified and living righteously by the power of God or they're in sin trying to justify it. The religious left what God's word calls "the great falling away" The religious left is of the anti Christ spirit.

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 · September 8 at 12:35am







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Hiram Ben Cooper
Oxymoron, fiction or fact, marriage is an institution created by God.
 Man's self-righteousness does not overrule God's righteousness, God's commandments.
 Christ will judge each of us in the end, not man. We cannot create God from the ground up.

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 · September 7 at 3:39pm







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Paul Dragu · Gwinnett Technical College
The wolf is officially dressed up and among the sheep. Welcome to the bold display of false teachers.

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 · September 8 at 5:44am







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Mike Brown ·  Top Commenter · West Virginia University
Dan Savage is not a Christian. He's a Christian hater. Do your research on him. This story is a joke and just another piece of propaganda we're supposed to accept as fact but instead its fiction.

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 · March 31 at 2:20am







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Edward Walsh ·  Top Commenter · Weber High School, Chicago, IL
CHRISTIAN LEFT IS AN OXYMORON!

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 · March 30 at 8:36pm







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Joyce Rhodes Steele ·  Top Commenter
Obama didn't take up gay marriage because of his faith. The UN was putting pressure on him to get it legalized.

Reply · 1 ·
 · February 17 at 12:39pm



Paul Collurafici · Chief Engineer at Tattoo Factory
How about if everybody just minded their own business? Don't want gays to marry... don't marry one. Think gays are going to hell? Tell them when you are sure.

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 · February 17 at 1:55pm
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Joyce Rhodes Steele ·  Top Commenter
I think making laws kind of makes it every ones business. I don't think gays going to hell is the issue on gay marriage with Christians.

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 · February 17 at 4:29pm
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Craig Gosling ·  Top Commenter · Indianapolis, Indiana
The political silence of religious liberals has been disheartening. Apparently God does not consider this movement worthwhile to support, or does he?

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 · January 3 at 3:45am







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Gaby Dunn 1p  · 29 weeks ago

Yay LGBT Jews!

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 Harold Levine  · 29 weeks ago

What a wonderful article! Thank you!

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 Guy Tembert  · 11 weeks ago

I find it curious to see Chrismas Eve mentioned in the list of Jewish holidays...

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rabbitonyjutner -52p  · 29 weeks ago

I would like to see this energy transmitted to anti zionism activism. Leaders of the mainstream gay community such as Judith Butler and Sarah Schulman have shown that we must ally ourselves with progressive movements including Hamas and Hezbollah. If we make common cause with radical Islamic groups, upon our ultimate victory over zionism, gay rights will be upheld from Morocco to Indonesia
Amandla!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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