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Divide and conquer: Why Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot be called a “family friendly” faith →
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
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Posted on June 5, 2015
In a video clip from the 2015 convention series, Robert and Brenda Sutton are praised for shunning their child
In a video clip from the 2015 convention series, Robert and Brenda Sutton are praised for shunning their child
It is a predicament that all too many visitors to this website, myself included, find themselves in: believing Jehovah’s Witness relatives cutting off all contact in the belief they must do so in order to show loyalty to God.
And there appears to be no sign of Watchtower relaxing its cruel shunning policy, which it has repeatedly denied even having – especially if a video from the 2015 regional convention series is anything to go by.
In the video, which has just started to be circulated on Facebook, a JW couple identified as Robert and Brenda Sutton are interviewed about their experience raising three children. It emerges that one of their children was disfellowshipped not long after getting a new job where there was “questionable association with coworkers.”
The Suttons, who are now working at the Watchtower bethel facilities in Warwick, unashamedly talk about how they “cut off all association” with their child after he or she was disciplined by elders. They describe how the shunning eventually led to him or her returning to the organization.
After they give their experience, the speaker praises the couple for their “excellent example” as they exit the stage to applause from the audience.
What makes this video especially difficult to watch is how the parents who did the shunning are quick to portray themselves as victims in this scenario, with seemingly no thought for the trauma of ostracism inflicted on their child.
“It was one of the hardest things that I ever had to face,” relates Brenda Sutton. “I had many sleepless nights praying to Jehovah, but I came to realize that we needed to trust in what Proverbs 22 and verse 6 says: ‘train a boy in the way he should go, even when he grows old he will not depart from it.'”
In other words: train up a boy to believe what you believe without question, and if he grows up and walks away from it of his own free will you can bank on him returning if you are prepared to emotionally blackmail him.
“We began to question ourselves as parents,” says Robert Sutton. “Where did we go wrong? Were we too strict? Were we too lenient? Just what did we do that was wrong?”
Guilt and self-loathing are typical by-products of cult indoctrination, and few things induce these toxic feelings quite as well as an adult son or daughter walking away from the faith despite the best efforts of believing parents to super-impose their beliefs on him or her.
“But one thing we did for sure, and that’s in addition to multiple times with praying to Jehovah,” added Robert Sutton. “We made sure that we cling to our spiritual routine.”
Yes – staying busy, busy, busy in “Jehovah’s service” helps keep those feelings of guilt at bay. You may have let the Creator down by failing to calibrate your child’s brain to his specifications, but at least you can put in extra ministry time to compensate.
“What was it that moved your child to return to Jehovah?” asks the speaker.
“Well it was the missed association with the family,” says Brenda Sutton proudly and unflinchingly. “And here’s why, I had always told our kids… ‘I would die for you, I love you, would die for you, but if you ever leave Jehovah I wouldn’t be there’. And they knew that we wouldn’t waver on this. But sad to say, and as hard as it was, we had to cut off all association.”
Speaking for myself, those who are being shunned by JW relatives don’t want their relatives to die for them. They want them to live with them and be in their lives.
A person could easily find himself or herself in a situation where they choose to die for a complete stranger, perhaps a small child on a road as a car approaches, but that doesn’t mean they have full love for the person they are saving. They are merely showing basic human solidarity for a vulnerable person in peril.
Real love is when you stand by your child no matter what, through good times and bad, and sadly JW parents who capitulate to the cruel and baseless rules about shunning can never lay claim to such love. Their love is conditional – based on their offspring sharing the beliefs they have been indoctrinated to accept, usually by their own parents.
Speaking as someone who has recently become a father, I know that wild horses couldn’t pull me away from my baby daughter – especially not something as frivolous and petty as ideological differences.
It saddens me to think my father once felt his own love for me was unbreakable, perhaps when he once cradled me in his arms when I was a baby. The fact that a cult can erode such strong parental bonds only underscores for me how corrosive Watchtower ideology is, and how important it is that it be combated, refuted and dismantled wherever possible.
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Further reading…
◾Friendly Atheist article
◾If shunning loved ones is scriptural, why does Watchtower publicly deny the practice?
◾JWsurvey articles on shunning
◾JWfacts article on disfellowshipping and shunning
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183 Responses to 2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
Newer Comments →
X Leonhart says:
June 5, 2015 at 1:41 pm
It’s really disgusting to hear those parents words…
I have two daughters and nothing in this world could make me leave them alone, no matter what they could do, I’ll be there to help them.
It’s horrible to see how cruel and cynical this cult is…
Reply
DAC says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:24 pm
Exactly. How could a parent ever say that there would ever be a situation where “they wouldn’t be there for them”. Awful.
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Erik says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:11 am
I know personally not all JW parents will or can follow this. I never considered it. An elder and his wife have moved in with their DA’d son. They moved a distance from their old community. They have no intention of not helping him, they consider his issues, and they also have no intention of missing out on their grand-daughter’s life! His mother did tell me privately that she knows other JWs have other ideas, and so she doesn’t share her viewpoint with everyone. But she must have felt safe to share it with me. I know of another mother who refused to shun while her DF’d son struggled with addiction, quietly doing what she felt Jesus would do.
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awokensoul says:
June 6, 2015 at 4:41 am
Yes, but therein lies the issue. Everyone knows a Jdub that doesn’t agree with one policy or another, but the fact is, they are doing it in defiance to what comes from the slave, and in effect, what comes from jehova.
My parents are stuck in that quagmire now. I haven’t Da’d myself, so we can keep playing that silly little loophole, but things are strained between us because I clearly want nothing to do with the org. As such, they really don’t have anything to say or do with me.
Considering this draconian black and white ,”us versus them” nonsense keeps getting plugged into their brains, it’s a wonder we’re even cordial.
Simple human decency dictates that shunning someone over a disagreement is wrong, but when their god keeps telling them to do so (Deut. 13:6-9), their hands are tied in the matter.
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Ejay says:
June 5, 2015 at 1:45 pm
The audience must be confused…They applaud when they should be appalled.
This should be a solemn, mournful thing. No one should be congratulated or encouraged.
And regardless of what their son did, should wanting renewed association be his primary reason for returning or should it be love for God?
The ‘Society’ seems not to care, just as long as you come back and can be another number in a yearbook.
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ScotWm says:
June 7, 2015 at 6:55 pm
RE: “The audience must be confused…They applaud when they should be appalled.”
I’m not so sure that the entire assembly audience comprehends what is said from the platform.
At one assembly I attended, the speaker read a list of figures which indicated increases in whatever the category was: Field service hours, books placed, newly baptized, congregation attendance, numbers of pioneers — whatever. A round of applause followed each increased number announced.
Then the brother read a number that showed a decrease in one category and a round of applause followed. I and several others sat there silent as thousand of people applauded the decreased number.
I’m guessing that many, if not most, of the assembly delegates are totally numbed by the continual boredom that they aren’t really comprehending anything that is said from the stage.
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Swallowtail says:
June 5, 2015 at 1:52 pm
So it wasn’t the child’s love for Jehovah that sucked him/her back in, it was the love for the parents. Isn’t that missing the point? How can those parents and audience stand there and not see the failed logic in that approach? OH and even better, lets make the mom in her grief continue to push her emotions aside and push on in the ministry to get more people to shun. How sad.
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awokensoul says:
June 6, 2015 at 4:45 am
It’s never “love for jehova”. It’s never, “I missed giving talks and comments at the meeting.” In the end, it’s always “I couldn’t stand the loneliness and I just wanted my family back.”
When you’re in, they do a great job of instilling an insular mentality in your mind. So when you’re out, you’re nothing more than an island of one. You can’t make friends with “worldly people”, or trust them to any real extent. It’s really only a matter of time before you break down and come back.
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Riley says:
June 5, 2015 at 1:59 pm
Wow this is amazing. How can you shun your family I will never understand or agree with it. It’s happening to me personally and to hear them say it’s hard for them wow so disgusting. How about you choose to love your child and do what you know is right. It’s pretty obvious that shunning is wrong and damaging but they actually think that they are right wow pathetic. Figure it out how can you not see through the propaganda of the org honestly…
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Jerry O Connor says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:02 pm
I almost vomited after seeing this. We all know that watchtower denies a policy of shunning. The only good to come out of the video is that it proves there is a shunning policy. It is an “own goal ” by watchtower. The cat is out of the bag. Conditional love is not love. You don’t need to be a psychiatrist to see that their reasons for the vile act came from
mentally disturbed minds.
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Riley says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:02 pm
I was turned down twice in my judicial committee and the main thing they said was I was only doing it for my family and that wasn’t the right reason. So not ok for me but its ok for there kid…. Yeah so happy I’m chose to never go back to that cult !
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David says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:05 pm
Sometimes I ask myself, how is possible that so many atrocities where committed in WWII? How is possible that the catholic church practiced the inquisition? I also ask myself how is possible that the jw.org is so potent in controlling people brains and behaviour to the point where parents shun family members for life. To even let children die for refusing a blood transfusion. Do they really believe those seven men are special? Come on! how can the JWs be so stupid and ignorant. These men are not special but the life of your son or daughter is special. If you inflict such a cruel punishment to a person it cannot be undone.
Jesus preached a message of freedom, where him alone is the master. Those seven lunatics enjoy having a superstar status and misinterpret the Christian message.
Your family members are a gift what the jw.orgs says is just guesses if not fabricated lies. Please JWs do some research and see yourself the amount of rubbish teaching these people have produced. Have you watched may jw tv broadcast and the amount of lies said by Mr Lett?
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j brown says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:13 pm
I can’t get over how goofy daddy Sutton looks and much of a basket-case mommy Sutton comes across. And then to have these two on the convention program. Simply laughable!
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David says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:43 pm
It is also amazing the fake image that they portray of themselves. They really know the best in propaganda techniques.
If you watch their videos it looks like everything is perfect, the love in the organisation seems abundant. Come on JWs! is that what you really experience in your local congregation? I constantly heard complains of old people being neglected. I can see from my experience that the kingdom halls are full of depressed people. Young people are mostly apathetic and without real aim. Their greatest satisfaction is standing hours next to a JW cart advertising non sense. Playing videos explaing 1914, come on, that’s a joke. Non intelligent people can believe such a teaching made of unrelated scriptures pasted together.
When they talk about cart preaching they say that the results are amazing. I live in a big city and never seen such amazing interest from people. The JWs seems like part of the city landscape, like traffic lights, buses.
My collegues never talk about them, nobody talks about them. But for them everything they do is historic, is amazing!
I will never understand their mentality!
The JWs are famous for portraying themselves the best people on earth and the rest the worst people on earth. That is a complete lie. They are like anybody else with a bit of delusion.
Do you think people are amazed knowing that JW parent shun people that make the adult decision to follow a different path in life?
Do you think people get interested in the Bible when they know the amount of false interpretations taught by the JWs?
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Grace says:
June 5, 2015 at 6:35 pm
@David,
So well put. Especially the fact that they will brag about how wonderful they are. Anyone knows that when someone has to spruce so much about themselves, there is something really lacking. A happy person doesn’t need to go around pronouncing how happy they are. A good person doesn’t need to tell people how good they are.
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John Chapman says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:45 pm
‘a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ Matthew 10:36
For the son despises his father. The daughter defies her mother. The daughter-in-law defies her mother-in-law. Your enemies are right in your own household! Micah 7:6
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Rowland Nelken says:
June 5, 2015 at 3:24 pm
What is the significance or relevance of those Bible verses, John Chapman? Merely rejecting JW twaddle should not be a cause for enmity. Disagreement about religious doctrine certainly caused wars in Christendom’s blood soaked past, and is the spur to the horrors committed today by ISIS, Boko Haram and others. But to make an enemy of your child simply because they do not go along with your religious notions is nothing short of obscene. Please explain why you have printed those Bible verses. What possible relevance do they have to this horrible story?
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SR says:
June 5, 2015 at 2:46 pm
That is a really good video to circulate. It shows the pressure the organization puts on it’s members. I liked the part were the mom says “I told them if they ever left Jehovah I would have nothing to do with them.” Yup, because the organization IS God.
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SR says:
June 5, 2015 at 11:15 pm
The dad says that he needed to step back and let Jehovah discipline his child. Since the organization = God he is saying to give up parental ties and let the organization at the child. If you substitute Watch Tower for every time they say Jehovah that video gets even creepier.
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Finn Sawyer says:
June 5, 2015 at 3:03 pm
Lloyd,
Good read, and excellent exposure of this cruel practice. No natural affection, indeed. I would sooner die than do this to my kids. As of yet I have not been “discovered” by my family. As much as I’d like to spill the beans and try to bring them over, clear the air, I’m thinking I should stay a mystery after reading this.
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David says:
June 5, 2015 at 3:10 pm
According to them even if you are a good person with good standards, values and perhaps still a believer you should be shunned for life. If this isn’t madness what it is?
Honestly having parents so stupid and blind is a misfortune. I am really sorry for these people because one day they’ll release how stupid they are.
They are ruining people lives and precious family bonds for blind religious fanaticism and extremism.
How would they feel if everybody shuns them? if they loose their jobs?
If somebody decides to follow God it must be a spontaneous and a free decision not dictated of shameful mafia tactics.
Honestly when you see these things is better to turn page, because these people are brainwashed and cannot understand common sense. They are like possessed. They just listen to their seven american false gods that are all busy with gigantic materialist projects mocking Christ example.
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anonymous says:
June 5, 2015 at 3:32 pm
That video clearly shows that it wasn’t love for God or even the Organization that made that child come back “spiritually” but it was missed association with the family. How can those people be proud of that? You would think the first reason would be that he missed God if it really was the “truth”. I hope that kid gets himself reinstated and then stops going to meetings.
Hopefully when he gets a little older and can piece it all together in his mind, he will see that the love from his parents is conditional and shunning is nothing but blackmail and his parents are walking, talking, unfeeling brainless Watchtower zombies.
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Dee says:
June 5, 2015 at 4:04 pm
I have to wonder if someone at Bethel asked them, no…told them, that they would give their experience and make an example of their shunning of their child. I hope it was difficult and awful and painful for them to do. It’s shameful and unchristian.
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Darlene Alexander says:
June 5, 2015 at 4:05 pm
“I had always told our kids… ‘I would die for you, I love you, would die for you, but if you ever leave Jehovah I wouldn’t be there.”
Conditional love at its finest!! Why did that child return? To be with their Family – NOT with the religion. At least they are admitting to their emotional blackmail – it matters not that the child still may not ‘do Jehovah’s will’ – just that the blackmail WORKED! They are getting sicker and crazier every day.
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Dblaron42 says:
June 5, 2015 at 4:11 pm
Where to begin? Wow. There is a TV show on PBS here in the states called ” Keeping Up Appearances”; and I think one of the most ironic things in my experiences with the Borg (via my ex-wife) was that my ex absolutely LOVED this show… it used to kill me that she did not see the correlation of this show to how the borg operate.
Thankfully I do not have to deal with their crap anymore… and I have made it abundantly clear to my daughter that I would never ever ever shun her because we have different beliefs. Sadly she cannot count on the same from her mom.
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Mama Joy says:
June 5, 2015 at 4:30 pm
This sickens me….
Out of all the scriptures that states “Do not judge” or “show love” hundreds of times in bible ….. Yet, the JW’s pick one scripture that says something (when taken out of context) that states to get rid of your family. ……. So they take this one misused scripture to justify betraying their own children and casting them aside like the Samaritan woman. …… “Whoa to them that hurt these little children!”
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Ted says:
June 5, 2015 at 5:11 pm
Is this why we bring children into the World ? To impose our
beliefs on them ? So denying them the right to develop their
own ideals, their own philosophy on life?
How self righteous to assert ones own beliefs are the only valid
ones. And how harsh, how brutish, to withdraw natural affection
and association until our children conform.
To use the love that exists between family members, as a weapon
to control is obscene. It’s a method familiar to fascists and
dictators.
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Susan says:
June 5, 2015 at 5:19 pm
What hypocrites the JW org is. In the June 2013 Watchtower they say the following about couples who use the silent treatment: “some spouses use the silent treatment as a form of revenge…some as a means to get what they want…when it is used a means to retaliate or manipulate, it prolongs conflict and erodes respect.” So the Watchtower Society knows full well that they are seeking to manipulate members who leave them by shunning them. They isolate them and make them feel that they are completely alone in the world and use shunning to get them to return. This has resulted in countless suicides. I personally know of SIX! This barbaric treatment needs to stop.
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Grace says:
June 5, 2015 at 6:40 pm
@Susan,
Fantastic reasoning & using their own literature too. Love the comments on this.
Reply
alanv says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:54 am
Thanks for that comment Susan. It truly is amazing that the org condemn others for doing exactly what they do, except they do it even worse.
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Karen says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:07 am
Perfectly said. Your point here is one of the things that contributed my awakening. Hopefully others are making note of this contradiction and starting to wake up as well.
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J Brown says:
June 7, 2015 at 12:14 am
Susan what an awesome post. Can you site specifically the article in June 2013 you are referring to? That would be a big help! I’m having difficulty locating it. Thank you.
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Jerry O Connor says:
June 5, 2015 at 5:59 pm
Having watched the clip a second time I observed a few things missed after the first viewing. Those two watchtower automatons used coercion and hate in a twisted plot to recapture the kid. No one mentioned how the kid felt. That woman complained about how bad it was for her. How bitterly ironic it is when the man said they had a “fun night”. I would rather watch paint dry. I am not very articulate so please excuse the meandering. The kid was shunned because he was not toeing watchtower`s line. Hate rather than love was used to coerce the kid back. From watchtower`s rheumy eyes, the return should be to a fabricated entity known as a god. The kid did what it took to be reunited with his siblings and his progenitors. The entity was not in his equation to regain his loss. The kid will do just enough to stay within watchtower`s conduct parameters. I am bemused that there is not a great outcry aimed at the psychotic seven. Watchtower is more sinister and more dangerous than Jim Jones. This should chill peoples blood. As a very x jw I know what they are capable of. I believe that it will not end well.
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withheld says:
June 5, 2015 at 7:08 pm
As a Jehovah Witness father with three young children I’m terrified about them becoming baptised. There is no way, or under any circumstances would I ever shun my children. And I know, I too would probably be disfellowshipped for this. I would love to leave this organization but there’s no way out. All of my family and friends are witnesses. I will do anything to keep my children from becoming baptised until they are of legal age and it’s their own choice.
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danman says:
June 5, 2015 at 7:27 pm
So good to hear comments like “withheld”, I think there are many jw who are in similar thinking when it comes to child baptism. Your stand certainly is in more harmony with the scriptures. Jesus fully attained adulthood before baptism……what support does the GB have for haranguing jw parents to push their children into the baptismal pool? That is the real question.
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Mara says:
June 5, 2015 at 7:34 pm
So infuriating when WT uses these experiences to try to prove that the emotional blackmail of shunning is loving and brings people back to the fold. For every person it brings back to WT, (for all the wrong reasons, I might add), there are probably 100 who avoid WT due to this sadistic practice. It was one of the very first things I finally had to admit was cruel and wrong…one of the main reasons I left the cult after 40 plus years! But they don’t feature experiences like mine on the program, do they!
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Trish Karr says:
June 5, 2015 at 8:16 pm
Being raised in this cult I know exactly how they operate. Yes its called emotional blackmail where they teach their followers to cut their loved ones off should they leave the religion, and blackmail them to return back to the religion if they want to be loved by their families or loved ones! Feel free to watch my award winning Documentary which was made on the story of my life. I tell all. How I was raised in the Jehovahs Witness religion and left to create a life of my own. Im living proof its not too late to change your life because life is what you make it. You can see my film online its called “Witness my Journey from Jehovahs Witness to Australia’s Party Queen” hope you enjoy watching it. It may enlighten those that are finding life difficult since leaving the religion.
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anonymous says:
June 6, 2015 at 12:30 am
Hi Trish,
Looks like when you left you not only threw the baby out with the bath water, but the entire kitchen sink too!
Can’t say I agree with your libidinous way of life or your moral abandon, but my thoughts are with you in your efforts to help those suffering from breast cancer.
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anonymous says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:58 am
Hi everyone. There is another anonymous here. This is not the same anonymous above commenting as the one who comments often.
Reply
airborne says:
June 5, 2015 at 8:50 pm
What a cruel practice. Those parents are heartless.
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steve says:
June 5, 2015 at 8:56 pm
Just wondering how this couple was “qualified” to work at Warwick when obviously not presiding over their household in a fine way? If their children are adults then what sacrifice have they made? If their children are underage then they shouldn’t qualify for extra privileges of sacred service.
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jay says:
June 5, 2015 at 9:17 pm
if only things would change somehow and GB would allow reform then so many people wouldn’t be so messed up. I long to see the day when this organization changes and cleansed of its hypocrisy..
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ScotWm says:
June 5, 2015 at 9:55 pm
In 1968, the 192 page book The Truth That Leads to Eternal Life was published by the Watchtower Society. Laying the ground for shunning appeared early on in chapter 3, paragraph 12 on page 16:
12. “As you examine God’s Word, you will learn that your love for God will be put to the test. There may be individuals, perhaps even close friends or relatives, who will not approve of your examining the Scriptures. (1 Peter 4:4; Matthew 10:36, 37) They may try to discourage you. They may do this in all sincerity, because they do not know the marvelous truths found in the Bible. Perhaps you can help them. In other cases the opposition may come from persons who have no love for God. If this should occur, remember, having God’s approval is far more important than having the approval of men. It is God, not man, who will give you eternal life if you love him above everyone and everything else. (Matthew 22: 37-39)”
Later on they add on more powerful scriptures, such as this one:
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters — yes, even his own life — he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:25-26).
Those who disagree with the Governing Body and those who try to save you from this cult must be shunned.
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Kat says:
June 5, 2015 at 11:23 pm
How can they equate leaving an organization of false prophets to leaving God?
As if God would have anything to do with this organization of lying false prophets! they dump their own kids in exchange for following 7 deluded liars and false prophets. Sick
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Andrew says:
June 6, 2015 at 12:01 am
It’s all so hypocritical really. My parents didnt want me around for 10 years after I left but when they got older and to the point where they needed me to care for them they changed their tune. And the elders were the ones who told them that the congregation was not in the position to help them as it doesn’t do aged care. This happened after my father was loudly trumpeting to one and all in hospital that the congregation would help them. When the elders got wind of this they told him to be quiet and let their socalled apostate son do all the work. Hypocrites really.
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Kat says:
June 6, 2015 at 12:30 am
I know of an elder that has given talks on how children should be responsible for their ageing or ill parents, but yet he doesn’t care for his own JW mother instead his mothers sisters husband cares for her and he has been inactive for over ten years, he feeds cares for her board free, I asked her why doesn’t your son care for you why should my brother have to financially support you, her answer he has three children and a wife to look after, yet my brother has his wife and son and works full time, and he is ill has had buy pass surgery, the elder Son of the mother is over twenty five yrs younger than my brother.
The hypocrisy stinks, and told this elder son exactly what I think of his hypocrisy, he just walked away.
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mpm says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:43 am
This is awful! I had just uploaded a video two days before expressing the hurt I have suffered from my parents doing this very thing to me.
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anonymous says:
June 6, 2015 at 9:22 am
mpm, I listened to your video and it does say exactly the same thing about your mother’s conditional love that the Society’s video of these two parents and how they looked at their son the very same way with only conditional love (not love but attention appearing to be love).
One of the very first things that new people are taught when they “study” the Bible with Witnesses is that they have to put God first in their lives, above all our relatives and friends. We were taught to do that but I was never under that much cult control that I could ever even think of saying such a despicable thing to one of my children as what your mother told to you.
It is so ironic in that Witnesses love to quote 2 Tim. 3:1-5 about how in the last days there would be critical times hard to deal with and one of those things depicting the last days would be having no natural affection and if any people perfectly depicts having no natural affection it is Jehovah’s Witnesses. They are the very epitome of having no natural affection.
Does the Society turn people into non-feeling, uncaring human beings or are non-feeling, uncaring people attracted to the Watchtower? Either way, they are non-feeling and uncaring and under cult mind control of a very evil Satanic organization.
People who are that controlled are capable of anything. They can be convinced that they are saving the lives of those disfellowshipped (or dance around like a chicken as under the hypnotic control of a hypnotist), but in the end, they are more convinced about the saving of their own lives at Armageddon than they are about saving the lives of their family and friends who have fallen away. It stands to reason (if a person is able to reason) that to shun a loved one just for not wanting to be a JW anymore, will only convince that other person more than anything that it truly is a non-Christian religion since Jesus taught love and forgiveness with the parable of the prodigal son.
The parents in this demonstration, show that they are arrogant and proud that they love the Organization more than their own children. In the Bible, arrogance and pride is not something that a God loves however. If these people were crying on stage, I might feel differently about them but they seemed very arrogant and proud to me. I don’t think that their children have any real feeling for them. I bet if you were to talk to their children, you might hear a very different story than the one they told on stage.
Reply
Tony says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:16 am
When 2 JW ladies showed up at my door about a month ago I told them how disgusted I am by their practice of shunning. One of them tried to justify it by comparing it to sending a child to their room. When I told them of people suffering PTSD as a result of shunning they left.
Reply
da' says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:27 am
@ Erik
There you go, perfectly said. Keep you mouth shut and your family is YOUR BUSINESS, especially when it comes to YOUR CHILDREN. People wont know or talk about what you havent revealed to them. You may also think confiding in a close friend will bring encouragement . Wrong , it only brings more drama .
Reply
Kat says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:45 am
mpm I viewed you video a couple of days ago, and really touched my heart, so sorry for what you are going through, and I love your work.
Reply
mpm says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:56 am
Hey Kat, thank you for the kind words. It was shocking to see this shunning video right after I had posted, so sad.
Reply
Kat says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:56 am
Going back jus to be with your family is a catch twenty two, you have your family but on the GB terms, and the agony of having to sit in every meeting while you just don’t agree is torment and one would feel like a hypocrite, its so sad, and it is emotional black mail.
Oh how I wish this religion would lose their charity status for this as its against human rights, and just maybe they would change.
This is what they print in the Awake for the public.
July 2009 Awake p29: “No one should be forced to worship in a way that he finds unacceptable or be made to choose between his beliefs and his family.
Reply
sirius says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:57 am
A few points of curiosity. How often do children return to the fold after being shunned, and what is THAT success rate? Do shunned children tend to rebel more? Is love conditional in the JW (faith) or unconditional? And lastly, if I were to put on a catholic hat I would silently close the door(shun) on all JWs, Mormons, Seventh Advents and anyone else who claims to be Christian but denies the Deity of Christ, Apostolic Faith and brings another teaching of another Jesus?
The early church never practiced shunning of excommunicated members. So, if a shunned female was on the roadside with a flat tire not one JW would come to her aid? This is what I find cruel & unusual punishment in the mind set of the JWs!
IMHO
Dogstar
Reply
Kat says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:08 am
Interesting when I became a JW I was asked to write a letter to denounce my baptism of my former faith, I was never baptised even as a baby in another religion, so I didn’t have to but many did, including a few of my relatives that were later converted.
But none of my relatives ever shunned any of us, because we chose a different belief, they were to pleased and now I know why, but still they never shunned us or treated us badly, always invited for get togethers, tolerated our no birthdays and xmas.
But as JW we are told to shun our own flesh and blood if they chose to leave even if they don’t join another religion, even when they are children. Its a cult.
Reply
rikos says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:22 am
every time Jehovah witnesses are coming to my mind, is like some one gives me knives and remind me the years I lost in this organization under the deceptive of influence. the middle ages is still here.
Reply
Michele says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:41 am
This makes me sick to my stomach. It just boggles me how parents can think emotional blackmail is loving. If a child only comes back to the “truth” because he misses his family, NOT because he actually believes in the religion, is a joke in itself. The mind control and endless indoctrination that convinces so called “loving parents” to behave this way is disgusting to me. I should know. I dealt with it for 5 years. The pain this causes to everyone is despicable.
Reply
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Divide and conquer: Why Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot be called a “family friendly” faith →
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
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Posted on June 5, 2015
In a video clip from the 2015 convention series, Robert and Brenda Sutton are praised for shunning their child
In a video clip from the 2015 convention series, Robert and Brenda Sutton are praised for shunning their child
It is a predicament that all too many visitors to this website, myself included, find themselves in: believing Jehovah’s Witness relatives cutting off all contact in the belief they must do so in order to show loyalty to God.
And there appears to be no sign of Watchtower relaxing its cruel shunning policy, which it has repeatedly denied even having – especially if a video from the 2015 regional convention series is anything to go by.
In the video, which has just started to be circulated on Facebook, a JW couple identified as Robert and Brenda Sutton are interviewed about their experience raising three children. It emerges that one of their children was disfellowshipped not long after getting a new job where there was “questionable association with coworkers.”
The Suttons, who are now working at the Watchtower bethel facilities in Warwick, unashamedly talk about how they “cut off all association” with their child after he or she was disciplined by elders. They describe how the shunning eventually led to him or her returning to the organization.
After they give their experience, the speaker praises the couple for their “excellent example” as they exit the stage to applause from the audience.
What makes this video especially difficult to watch is how the parents who did the shunning are quick to portray themselves as victims in this scenario, with seemingly no thought for the trauma of ostracism inflicted on their child.
“It was one of the hardest things that I ever had to face,” relates Brenda Sutton. “I had many sleepless nights praying to Jehovah, but I came to realize that we needed to trust in what Proverbs 22 and verse 6 says: ‘train a boy in the way he should go, even when he grows old he will not depart from it.'”
In other words: train up a boy to believe what you believe without question, and if he grows up and walks away from it of his own free will you can bank on him returning if you are prepared to emotionally blackmail him.
“We began to question ourselves as parents,” says Robert Sutton. “Where did we go wrong? Were we too strict? Were we too lenient? Just what did we do that was wrong?”
Guilt and self-loathing are typical by-products of cult indoctrination, and few things induce these toxic feelings quite as well as an adult son or daughter walking away from the faith despite the best efforts of believing parents to super-impose their beliefs on him or her.
“But one thing we did for sure, and that’s in addition to multiple times with praying to Jehovah,” added Robert Sutton. “We made sure that we cling to our spiritual routine.”
Yes – staying busy, busy, busy in “Jehovah’s service” helps keep those feelings of guilt at bay. You may have let the Creator down by failing to calibrate your child’s brain to his specifications, but at least you can put in extra ministry time to compensate.
“What was it that moved your child to return to Jehovah?” asks the speaker.
“Well it was the missed association with the family,” says Brenda Sutton proudly and unflinchingly. “And here’s why, I had always told our kids… ‘I would die for you, I love you, would die for you, but if you ever leave Jehovah I wouldn’t be there’. And they knew that we wouldn’t waver on this. But sad to say, and as hard as it was, we had to cut off all association.”
Speaking for myself, those who are being shunned by JW relatives don’t want their relatives to die for them. They want them to live with them and be in their lives.
A person could easily find himself or herself in a situation where they choose to die for a complete stranger, perhaps a small child on a road as a car approaches, but that doesn’t mean they have full love for the person they are saving. They are merely showing basic human solidarity for a vulnerable person in peril.
Real love is when you stand by your child no matter what, through good times and bad, and sadly JW parents who capitulate to the cruel and baseless rules about shunning can never lay claim to such love. Their love is conditional – based on their offspring sharing the beliefs they have been indoctrinated to accept, usually by their own parents.
Speaking as someone who has recently become a father, I know that wild horses couldn’t pull me away from my baby daughter – especially not something as frivolous and petty as ideological differences.
It saddens me to think my father once felt his own love for me was unbreakable, perhaps when he once cradled me in his arms when I was a baby. The fact that a cult can erode such strong parental bonds only underscores for me how corrosive Watchtower ideology is, and how important it is that it be combated, refuted and dismantled wherever possible.
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Further reading…
◾Friendly Atheist article
◾If shunning loved ones is scriptural, why does Watchtower publicly deny the practice?
◾JWsurvey articles on shunning
◾JWfacts article on disfellowshipping and shunning
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183 Responses to 2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
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Melka says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:42 am
This is all on the Organization as far as I’m concerned. I know plenty of parents who are supposed to be shunning their kids, but still communicate, and I have even myself in the past thought they weren’t doing the right thing by talking and communicating with their children, since there was no reason to come back if they didn’t feel “alone” and punished. It’s so disgusting. But being a formerly brainwashed individual, I can understand. And you are honestly so worried about that person dying at Armageddon. It’s unfathomable that this is a trap just to keep you in so that they can get their money, and you’re not allowed to talk to that person who might have license to google “history of Jehovah’s Witnesses” or something like that. That’s not even the thing that woke me up, but once I did, I more than anything else was so disappointed in myself that I actually shunned people that I did love. Mrs. Sutton did love her child, even though he was DF’d, there’s no question in my mind. We just need to see the demise of the Organization. These poor people think they’re saving the lives of their loved ones, by shunning them. If her child stayed out of the organization, she would probably go to her grave worrying about how her child will die at Armageddon. They’re mentally captive, and it’s hard to get free.
Reply
rikos says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:51 am
The father: i am thinking where I was wrong? you don’t know where you when wrong? Is very simple. You and you wife teach your children the lies of the watchtower, and your children want to find out the truth, man The Hitler paranoid of inhumanity have contaminated the Jehovah’s witnesses brains. Nether he’s children have the right to examine the watchtower teachings in order to please seven man, and three stupid elders.
Reply
sparlock says:
June 6, 2015 at 7:19 am
“Yes – staying busy, busy, busy in “Jehovah’s service” helps keep those feelings of guilt at bay. You may have let the Creator down by failing to calibrate your child’s brain to his specifications, but at least you can put in extra ministry time to compensate.”
Thats exactly what i see in my mother. Her children didn’t become witnesses and she says beeing a pioneer is the only way to cope with this situation. She would rather kill herself than stop preaching 70 hours a month for the organization.
Reply
Ted says:
June 6, 2015 at 7:52 am
The parable of the “Prodigal Son” demolishes the shunning
practice. The son was not kept on a short leash, he was
allowed to follow his own inclination, even though it was a
bad decision.
The father imposed no conditions on the sons return. The
way back was always open. “No strings attached”.
When the son did return. There was no meeting of village
elders to determine repentance, or whether a period of
probation was necessary. There was no legalistic system
interfering in what was purely a family concern.
The father saw the son in the distance and ran to him and
embraced him, showing spontaneous unconditional love.
The son then acknowledged his error without any coercion.
The joyful reunion of father and son was not accomplished
by shunning, ( which often results in a permanent rift ).
But by “Unconditional love”.
Reply
Pickled brain says:
June 6, 2015 at 9:25 am
@Ted . Your Comments are SO TRUE! The PRODIGAL SON is the WAY Jesus showed us how to treat Repentant Sinners…….INSTANT ASSOCIATION
NO JUDICIAL COMMITTEE of 3 ELDERS!!! NO ISOLATING the Repentant one for Maybe A YEAR or SO until 3 FALLIBLE ELDERS choose to Re-Instate the person or not!!! WE ARE ALL SINNERS & FALL SHORT of the Glory of God(Romans 3v23)
The PHARASAICAL 7 BROOKLYN GB MEN!!! GO Beyond ‘What is Written in Scripture’ & in Revelation that is Punishable with Death!!!(Rev.22v18,19)
Reply
Rick says:
June 7, 2015 at 8:09 am
Very good way to look at it Ted, I’ve often thought the same whenever I hear the example of the prodigal son used. Also, the son was hungry and homeless so he came back to live with his dad to be able to enjoy what he had before. The dad didn’t think twice, his love for the son was big and unconditional. The JWs should really “read” into this story and apply it in their lives but as long as the brain cord is connected to the mother ship (WT) I see very little chance of changes.
Reply
David says:
June 10, 2015 at 9:25 am
That is a great point. The son was away from his father not because of being shunned. The son departed and was way, but his father was ready to show him love in any way possible. He did not place any conditions upon the reinstatement of their relationship. For as much as JW’s like to use this parable, they completely ignore this important part of it.
Reply
just asking says:
June 6, 2015 at 9:45 am
I simply hate this organization, I really don’t know why I committed myself to it. I’ve grown up in this thing. they’re the only people know, they’re the ones who connect me to all my work. I would really wanna leave bt this whole disfellowshiping thing terrifies me. If I fade, all will know & will ask qns. I just don’t know.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 6, 2015 at 11:28 am
@just asking, when I stopped going to meetings (after 50 years) several asked me questions but didn’t want to know why I stopped going, except for one very nice person (not baptized but attended meetings) but most avoid me. Thank goodness, when she asked me why I quit, she assured me that she wouldn’t tell the elders and come to find out, she also hates the religion but didn’t have anybody else to confide in and when we got to talking, we shared a common belief that it’s a fraud. Her daughter who I studied with and was getting really involved, is fading also. My husband has told me that he hardly ever sees either of them anymore at the meetings (which makes me really happy).
If it’s any consolation, what are the Thursday night meetings like where you attend? If your Kingdom Hall is like I think most Kingdom Halls, there’s maybe half the attendance as when there’s a Circuit Overseer visiting. My husband said that last Thursday night, there was hardly anybody there and one of the elders gave a congregation needs talk which basically telling the congregation there was nothing to worry because they see the attendance being so low.
I had the courage to stop going and I think there’s a lot who force themselves to put their bodies in those seats because they are afraid of being stigmatized if they start missing meetings but you have to live your life your way. Don’t be a puppet to those people.
Don’t get to be 60 years old before realizing that there is no real love at the Kingdom Hall. It’s all conditional (which isn’t real love anyway). You don’t need that kind of love. We all deserve real friends and real love.
I personally wouldn’t write a letter of disassociation because in effect, you are saying that you are disfellowshipping them. It is all up to the person. If I disassociate myself, then I know that two of my children would be compelled to shun me and I don’t want them to have to go through that. If I didn’t care about anybody at the Hall, then I would write a letter of disassociation but I care too much about my children to do that to them and there are a bunch of really great people at my old Hall that I don’t want to do that too.
If you read Crisis of Conscience, you will see that there is no way that any God could be backing the Watchtower organization. It’s a fraud, passing itself off as a legitimate charity and sooner or later, the truth will come out and we will all be vindicated. It can’t go on forever. At least I hope I live long to see it collapse.
If you are young, please be your own person and don’t let that Organization control the rest of your life, just for fear of being disfellowshipped. There are real people out there who will be your friend and you will never find that in the Organization.
Reply
Wanderer says:
June 7, 2015 at 1:15 am
@anonymous another fantastic post! There is nothing more conditional than the unconditional love from JW’s!
Reply
J*L*C*R says:
June 7, 2015 at 2:26 pm
Outstanding comment Anonymous! You hit the nail on the head for a lot of people.
I got deep into the fading process when I started community college and became very active on campus. I enrolled right after high school, when most of my JW friends were pressuring me to pioneer. Needless to say that ruffled a-lot of feathers at the hall. It was not until the 2013 convention when I heard “any continued education is a temptation to ensnare yourself in Satan’s system, through bad association and etc; if you go to college you are a tool of the devil.”
I heard that and immediately walked out of the assembly hall, enough was enough. Three generations of my family gave their youth to the organization; I refuse to do the same. I was pressured into getting baptized at 14, that was a huge mistake.
Stay strong, having family involved is the worst part, I share your pain. Expressing myself here has helped me a lot, as you know. The healing process is long but it’s still one foot in front of the other. Know that you are not alone in your struggle.
Reply
Observer says:
June 10, 2015 at 1:17 pm
Your true family will love you unconditionally
Reply
Lee says:
June 9, 2015 at 6:00 pm
Great post, well done, I am fading too, and I refused to be visited by the elders.
Reply
Queen Elsa says:
June 6, 2015 at 12:37 pm
I’m in the same situation… :( I think many are.
Reply
kofybean says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:26 pm
“I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence.”
– Frederick Douglass
Reply
Shanti says:
June 7, 2015 at 11:27 am
There are many good articles available on the internet regarding the “Art of Fading”. Here is one.
http://thejehovahswitnesses.org/leaving-the-watchtower-fading.php
Reply
just asking says:
June 6, 2015 at 9:54 am
How did I get myself into this trap?
Why did I bow to the pressure of getting baptised @ 13. One is better off a worldly man that a disfellowshiped jw.
Reply
Finn Sawyer says:
June 6, 2015 at 4:47 pm
Because…like me you were only 13, and that says it all.
Reply
J*L*C*R says:
June 7, 2015 at 2:30 pm
Same here… I was 14.
Reply
Al says:
June 6, 2015 at 9:47 pm
It’s not your fault u were 13 how were u supposed to know. I was baptized at 12 with no understanding of the implications that would have later. I just quit going altogether 2 years ago and it is a total relief. So much anxiety every meeting and not feeling like you are doing enough gone!
I’m lucky though my family will still talk to me. I basically told them it wasn’t for me anymore but didn’t go into anymore detail and they left it at that. I thought about dissociating but that would result in my family shunning me since my dads an elder. So Im just inactive and am content with that. People in the hall will eventually give up trying to convince you, and you can start getting on with your life without interruption.
Sites like this one among others helped me to realize I am not the only one who went through this. Your not alone!
Reply
ruth lee says:
June 6, 2015 at 12:55 pm
hmm funnily enough i had a coversation with my children this week both not nbtzd pubs yet we discussed df a bit my boy cannot get his tender heart around this poor boy i will have to toughen the little blighter up! irony folks i took both my children in my arms and promised them no matter what they do i will never ever ever shun ignore or turn a cold shoulder to them until i draw my last dying breath thay are my wonderful gift from my creator so why would i ever trash that draw your own conclusions feeling a little stronger day by day
Reply
Ted says:
June 6, 2015 at 1:05 pm
In this interview we have spelled out for us, the real reason,
why many disfellowshipped ones return.
The Mother was asked. “What was it that moved your Son to
return to JHVH”? — She replied, “The missed association with
the Family”.
So it was affection for the family, not the religion, that motivated
his return. Now the Son is compelled to go through a
meaningless routine, just going through the motions of being a JW.
Not worshipping in Spirit and Truth.
The interview then, demonstrated that shunning. As well as exerting
cruel pressure, does not produce genuine Christians, and serves no
worthwhile purpose.
Reply
Honza says:
June 10, 2015 at 5:22 am
yes, yes!
Reply
kofybean says:
June 6, 2015 at 3:12 pm
“but if you ever leave Jehovah I wouldn’t be there”
It would seem to me they have an issue conflating God and Religion, when they are seperate entities.
Is it not possible to be close to God and reject religion? Because thats exactly what Jesus did.
It would seem the quote really meant, “if you do not follow the philosophies this organization has set, no matter how they may change…”
Reply
Thetroof says:
June 6, 2015 at 5:25 pm
This org Is so cruel. I cant believe I fell for baptism at age 12. I was too young to understand anything
The GB is equal to Satan who can turn into an angel of light.
Reply
Kat says:
June 6, 2015 at 6:40 pm
Ted excellent post
“The Mother was asked. “What was it that moved your Son to return to JHVH”? — She replied, “The missed association with
the Family”.
“The interview then, demonstrated that shunning. As well as exerting cruel pressure, does not produce genuine Christians, and serves no worthwhile purpose.
Reply
J Brown says:
June 7, 2015 at 12:21 am
There are a number of excellent arguments being made here. I’m going to take the liberty of re-posting one in particular that necessitates repeating:
“Susan says:
June 5, 2015 at 5:19 pm
What hypocrites the JW org is. In the June 2013 Watchtower they say the following about couples who use the silent treatment: “some spouses use the silent treatment as a form of revenge…some as a means to get what they want…when it is used a means to retaliate or manipulate, it prolongs conflict and erodes respect.” So the Watchtower Society knows full well that they are seeking to manipulate members who leave them by shunning them. They isolate them and make them feel that they are completely alone in the world and use shunning to get them to return. This has resulted in countless suicides. I personally know of SIX! This barbaric treatment needs to stop.”
Thank you Susan! What specific article were you quoting from? Is it from the public or study article of WT magazine?
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anonymous says:
June 7, 2015 at 4:04 am
@J Brown, that quote is from the June 2013 Awake article, entitled “How to End the Silent Treatment” on pages 4,5.
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Jbrown says:
June 7, 2015 at 10:53 am
Thank you Anonymous. Found it! Wow just wow! I’ve heard of people who speak out both sides of their mouth. WT takes the cake on this!
A must read: June 2013 Awake “How to End the Silent Treatment” on pages 4,5.
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Innocent Son says:
June 7, 2015 at 1:56 am
So many excellent comments on this article.My brother who was a Elder at the time was completely broken when his eldest son rejected the ‘Truth’ He followed the Watchtowers’ instructions and disowned him.This gut -renching cruel practice contributed to his Mental Breakdown and demise.A parents’ love should be unconditional, just like the parable of the prodigal son…
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just asking says:
June 7, 2015 at 2:22 am
I don’t really understand why they keep the majority of us holed up in this org by blackmail.
What’s the use of having a big membership when over a half are nt interested? Why can’t they just provide room for baptism cancellation especially for some of us who were minors at the time of baptism? I am in a meeting right now but all am listening to is nothing but rubbish. I even can’t believe I once believed this nonsense. THIS GONNA BE MY LAST ONE.
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anonymous says:
June 7, 2015 at 4:25 am
@just asking, when I became convinced of all the lies of the Society, I stopped cold turkey with going to meetings but it still took me quite a few months of worrying what if the Society is right about Armageddon?.
If a lot of people are like me, the meetings were boring and tedious and I had to force myself to go in service each month and I dreaded assemblies and I hated to think of all those friends at the assemblies who wouldn’t see my face there at meetings and assemblies. It was all those things that made me keep going.
Now that I see how completely what a fraud it is, I only pity all those who are still in that situation and can’t get out except to stop going to the meetings like I did and then have to go through what I am going through right now, knowing what the real “truth” is but not being able to tell them.
The thing is though, that we have no way of conversing with all those who are still going to the meetings to find out just how they feel. I would bet though that the scare of Armageddon is what keeps the majority going even though in their heart of hearts, they wonder if it’s all bunk and they are being made fools of?
That is why Lloyd’s idea this web site is simply genius!!!
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Alan says:
June 7, 2015 at 6:00 am
I can see a lot of parallels between the apostate shunning issue and the trials of the LGBT community. Being such a strong advocate (without exception) for human rights, I regard John Cedars as being something of a silent hero for this oppressed group, and I’m sure he, more than most, can relate to their experience of social isolation. As the recent developments with Bruce-now Caitlyn-Jenner have shown, there is still considerable resistance to enlightened human expression, and shunning must be recognised for what it is: a cynical weapon that is used to limit our freedoms. Let us all stand together on this issue, regardless of our sexuality, creed, colour, beliefs, etc. Take courage from Bruce’s decision to become Caitlyn, regardless of the hateful reaction of an increasingly small-minded minority. We shall win this war for the sake of all humanity. It’s our time now!
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Sarah says:
June 8, 2015 at 5:46 pm
Agree!
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rob says:
June 7, 2015 at 10:04 am
I knew so many individuals that got reinstated just for the ability to associate with their family and friends.
After their reinstatement most of them never went in service again and rarely attended meetings – but they got rid of the shunning.
This proves to me that reinstatement has absolutely nothing to do with spiritual guidance – just another crazy procedural and pharasiacal rule.
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danman says:
June 7, 2015 at 11:33 am
Just asking, asked:
“I don’t really understand why they keep the majority of us holed up in this org by blackmail.
What’s the use of having a big membership when over a half aren’t interested?”
All because of one man Joseph Rutherford. A pompous self centered (charlatan) who considered himself appointed by Jehovah and the angels to interpret God’s Word (?) the bible. This man who enjoyed not one but two 16 cylinder Cadillac’s, fine silk shirts, a farm on Staten Island (my mother his personal maid), illegal beer and wine cellar during the prohibition, hundreds and thousands of then known Bible Students at his every beck and call. Then had the gual to build a mansion in San Diego and say it was built for David and other bible characters, who were coming back very soon. By the way, my father drove those caddies for him, and also carried a 45 Smith and Wesson automatic for da judges protection. My sister has the license to prove it in our family records.
This fellow is responsible for almost all of the jw doctrine still followed today. He ushered in fanatical stands on Christendom, neutrality, flag salute, no blood, no christmas, no birthdays, 144,000 vs ‘other sheep’, only organizational appointments of elders etc., and he personally cemented these teachings by making outlandish asserstions regarding ‘millions now living will never die’, ancient bible characters coming back to life on earth in 1925 and even after never gave up on it for several years thereafter.
He ruled with an iron fist, he was chief writer, chief editor, chief of all chiefs, my father said that the judge could tell someone to jump off the cliff, and that person would feel hard pressed to no do as he was told. Talk about strong personality, he had one and more. He personally mentored Knathan Knorr, Fred Franz (of 1975 fame), Milton Henchel, and other neophytes who were to take over the helm upon this charlatan’s death in 1942.
The answer to your question imo is simple, it is men who have accepted other men as representatives for God himself. These people actually convince themselves that even when the utterances of these self proclaimed men of God are proven absolute garbage, with no evidence or even semblance of accuracy, the errors were allowed by Jehovah God…..so that future arrogant self appointed men of god can correct the errors (by new light) of the old former men of god. Get it?
Belief in any interpretation of the bible message is in and of itself giving full trust in man. Because you cannot point to any religious doctrine, policy, rule, or pronouncement, that does not somewhere sometime originate from a man or group of men. Right?
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
June 7, 2015 at 1:04 pm
Do not worry, Jehovah’s Witnesses (including those parents) are imitators of their god Jehovah when it comes to coercing people who courageously reject his/her dictatorship.
(Amos 7:17) . . .this is what Jehovah says: “Your wife will become a prostitute in the city, and your sons and your daughters will fall by the sword. Your land will be apportioned out with a measuring line, and you yourself will die in an unclean land; and Israel will surely go into exile from its land.”’”
You see, they resemble their god!!
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Alex says:
June 7, 2015 at 1:13 pm
The fact that this practice of shunning is encouraged by the WTBTS, of which I am also a victim too indicates so strongly to me that this organisation in Britain needs to be investigated fully by the Charity Commission and put to task to.prove how it benefits the community by actively encouraging the tearing apart of families, the foundation of any community. It needs to be stripped of its charity status, and its tax free position and exposed for what this mind numbing cult is: A dictatorial, ruthless and self absorbed movement out to destroy lives, spiritually, psychologically and in some cases physically. It has to go!!!
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Excelsior! says:
June 8, 2015 at 8:33 am
Alex,
Have you complained to the Charity Commission about shunning yet?
If not, I strongly urge you to do so. You can complain online!
I encourage all of us Brits to do so if we have not already!
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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BeenMisead says:
June 7, 2015 at 1:18 pm
I hate the expression in the “The Truth”.
Here’s why:
Was it true when Rutherford said in 1919?:
O “Millions Now Living Will Never Die.”
O “Armageddon is coming in 1925.”
O “Abraham, Moses and other notable men of faith would be resurrected in 1925.”
Was it true in 1969 when Nathan Knorr and Fred Franz said?:
O “If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things.”
O “Armageddon is coming on or around 1975.”
O “The generation of 1914 will not pass away until the end comes.”
O “In the 1980’s they said: The end would come before the end of the 20th Century.”
—————————————————
All of the above was NOT true!! So if anything it should be called “The Falsehood”!!
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Misha Anouk says:
June 7, 2015 at 2:42 pm
I found this video especially hard to watch as I imagine my parents would say the exact same thing. This organization is getting more and more gross by the minute.
On another note: Is this the same guy who has been featured on the monthly broadcast?
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Sarah says:
June 7, 2015 at 2:48 pm
Oh wow. I can almost guarantee they use my parents for this part. Either that or they will have to sit there ashamed and crying. I’m not sure which hurts worse.
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anonymous says:
June 7, 2015 at 4:15 pm
@Sarah, I can’t think of anything that could hurt worse than having your parents ashamed of you just because you don’t share their religious views.
No matter how good a person you are or what you have accomplished in life, you are nothing to your parents if you don’t share their religion.
A person can divorce a cruel mate and go on with your life, but everyone needs a parent’s love. What young person can afford a therapist when they are being blackmailed into faking a belief in their parent’s religion just so they can stay in their parent’s good graces?
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Sarah says:
June 8, 2015 at 5:49 pm
Thankyou for those thoughts:( I sometimes feel like people are starting to expect me to move on. But I will never get over the rejection from my parents, sisters and brother. I know that.
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anonymous says:
June 9, 2015 at 7:07 am
Sarah, this is a really good video for all of us experiencing Watchtower abuse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IshP0WONWqI
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ScotWm says:
June 7, 2015 at 7:30 pm
It’s interesting how the Watchtower Society has presented two opposing views on how to deal with children who have gone wrong. Contrast this assembly shunning experience with the video in the link below, where no shunning occurred.
In the Watchtower video “The Prodigal Returns”, we are presented with an upper-middle class family in which two brothers work with their father in a construction business. The family constantly dwells on pleasing Jehovah by spending every possible moment in personal study, attending meetings and going out in field service.
Then, the younger brother decides to pursue a worldly career and his older brother (who would have made a great Nazi) tries to shame his little brother into giving up this idea. The little brother leaves home, goes to the big city and ends up wallowing in sin and degradation.
Once the younger brother realizes his mistake, he returns home to the open arms of his parents and his congregation. All is forgiven — except by the older brother who feels resentment because his father has lavished affection on the younger brother who sinned and ignored the older brother’s total submission to Watchtower proclamations.
Finally, the family in the video, who did not shun their child, is reunited and they all live happily ever after — just like the assembly family who did shun their child. Now we have two Watchtower approved methods which can be used to bring prodigals back into the fold.
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/videos/prodigal-son-returns/#?insightsearch_id=0364613b-4340-4aec-90a7-193f31ddf17d&insightsearch_result_index=0
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John Baptist says:
June 7, 2015 at 9:03 pm
What a Joke these people have come really completely delusional. And when you become that way then you become psychotic in nature eventually. Your living in a altered reality without any regard for your actions upon your own flesh and blood. These are mentally sick people devoting their life to men and not the God of the bible
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Vivian says:
June 7, 2015 at 10:33 pm
What do you all think? Are the seven guys making the calls in NY simply indoctrinated coupled with not very thoughtful and thorough in their reflections or are they completely aware of the farce they have continued? Are they simply models and heirs of indoctrination trying to save people and their families from armageddon? Do they truly and honestly believe they are being moved along and used by a god? I would think that before I could believe my actions and thoughts were being inspired by god I would have to be clearly and completely mentally sick. But, indoctrination is a very strong strong force. I cant decide. In the lightest brightest terms i would call the men “irresponsible” and “thoughtless” and at worst, “monsters” and disgusting immoral garbage.
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anonymous says:
June 8, 2015 at 2:51 am
@Vivian, my personal opinion is that Lett thinks he is in the “truth” because of the way he gestures when he gives his speeches. It’s like he’s using every point on the speech counsel slip that we got at the Ministry School when we were giving talks and being counseled but the others don’t seem to care about gestures etc. I think if Lett realized he was caught up in a huge scam, he wouldn’t care about getting G’s on his speech counsel slip.
When Losch gives his talks, he reads them and he is always referencing the Watchtower and rarely references the Bible. He says it like this: “The Watchtower says this and the Watchtower says that”. I think Losch is not stupid and realizes it’s a scam but doesn’t know how to disillusion 8 million people with coming out and telling the truth and basically destroying all their hopes and dreams and admitting to the world that they had devoted their lives to nothing and even lost lives due to blood. If that is what has happened to these men, then to me, that would have to be the worst position to be in because it would mean that they really do have a conscience but are caught in a trap they can’t get out of.
David Splane I think knows it is a scam and doesn’t know how to escape. When he gives talks, he seems like he’s in some kind of agony with worry written all over his face.
Sam Herd (with his gold watches) seems to me to know it’s a scam but will take it if it means power and prestige and doesn’t care about the rank and file.
The rest, it seems like to me, are like non thinking ostriches with their heads buried in the sand rather than face reality (big bodies and small brains).
My old Kingdom Hall is full of ostriches and I was one of them until about a year ago so I know how it happens. It happened to the best of us.
If I had a conscience and had any doubts at all and I was one of the Governing Body members, I’d be so torn, that I don’t know how I could live through it without quitting like Ray Franz did.
That is what makes me wonder if they have consciences or not or are just so worried about what it would do to 8 million people to find out it is all a scam.
Maybe they can’t even tell their own wives about any of their doubts because they are too afraid to. They can’t confide in anybody either, just like the rest of us can’t.
I can’t think of a more hideous situation to be put into.
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Vivian says:
June 9, 2015 at 9:09 pm
Yes i agree it would be a terrible place to be in if you began to doubt/ saw the facade once you were at the top. If they were to topple the organization, dismantle it, what would happen to all these older ones that have given their lives and hopes and futures to the org. Some bad stuff would happen.
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Mike says:
June 7, 2015 at 11:40 pm
Hello Lloyd I hope you don’t mind me using your first name.
If you haven’t (which I doubt) have a read of Ray Franz
In Search of Christian Freedom, Ch10 Sheperds of the Flock and Ch11 The Misuse of Disfellowshipping I recommend it to everybody who read your last blog.
Thank you for this site and your courage.
Mike Sydney Australia
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Silent admirer says:
June 8, 2015 at 2:00 am
This is the idiot organization my cousin seeks to follow. To what levels of depravity these JW’s have to go to for him to open his eyes. Curiously he has never considered that by his own standards , his father should have called my cousin apostate(He is Hindu) and kicked my cousin out of his life.
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StrongHaiku says:
June 8, 2015 at 6:37 am
Thank you for the latest post/video and all of the work that you do, Cedars. This is a painful and difficult subject and you are adept at handling such with honesty, insight, and compassion.
There have already been many beautiful and heartfelt comments posted. Not much I can add but one perspective:
As a person who was disfellowshipped, I felt for many years the guilt and shame borne out of the belief that my family and Organization had the “moral high ground”. I no longer hold to that illusion and neither should anyone else out there who has been kicked out (or walked out), shunned, rejected, and discarded.
One important thing to note is that the people in this video, like many other JWs (including my family), are not basing this decision (and other decisions) on an evaluation of moral tenets but in following orders of their religion and leaders. They have been indoctrinated to relinquish their ability to think for themselves and instead of exercising their moral agency they simply fall back to “just following orders”. This, arguably, is an amoral stance. Part of me has some compassion for them. But, history will not be as kind. Modern society has come to understand that “just following orders” is indefensible.
I noticed a number of posts by people who stay in so as to avoid being shunned. My heart goes out to all of them. I cannot and will not speak for them or their circumstances but, as for me, I no longer feel compelled to hold on to my family. In 30 years, the only time they contacted me is when they wanted money or something else. Their love is conditional. Their currency is shame and guilt. They happily and mindlessly adhere to the rules and use love as leverage. I have no need of that and, frankly, I refuse to negotiate with extortionists. What I gave up I have more than gained. There are better people just about everywhere else.
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Beige DelFuego says:
June 8, 2015 at 2:44 pm
My family,well,the ones left in the cult,are cherry pickers as well.They pick and choose which parts of the bible suits them at any particular time.Incredibly greedy and parasitic,none of them have real jobs,they just wait till a family member dies,and then they go to court to see what they can get.Often times,the more immediate family members of the deceased,are still in shock about the death,and are not really even willing to fight.Therefore,its a win for the vultures.
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DAC says:
June 8, 2015 at 5:19 pm
To StrongHaiku,
That was an incredible post. Couldn’t have said it better.
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gameisover says:
June 8, 2015 at 6:48 am
And what about kids that completely shun their elderly parents?
That’s even more pathetic.
That is what is happening to us.
I feel sure even those from ISIS don’t do that t their parents or to their children.
THis is truly an evil cult masquerading for the true religion.
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James Broughton says:
June 8, 2015 at 8:16 am
Gameisover is correct. An evil cult masquerading for the true religion. The only ones who can’t see that are the JWs themselves. But there is hope. Many of us were there once and we came through!!!
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just asking says:
June 8, 2015 at 8:23 am
JF Rutherford put it right when he referred to his “religion as a racket & a snare”
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Christian Sparlock Freedom says:
June 8, 2015 at 10:50 am
Great Article
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just asking says:
June 8, 2015 at 12:03 pm
Recently an elder called me asking for a report because the Co was coming. I asked him if that is all he cares abt, a report not the reporter. I had not appeared for some time at the meetings. I told him, He just made me realise that they really loved me.
He laughed, I knew he’d not understood me. I hung up. He immediately called back still asking for the report & explained how it was important to update my card before the co visit. I told him I never preached. He then told me to get serious. I told him I loved him & feel the love.
What am saying is that nobody cares abt your wellbeing @ the kh, all they care abt is how active you’re in their activities.
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M Saurus says:
June 9, 2015 at 9:13 am
Same thing happened to our family about 3 years ago right when we started to fade. An elder called us to get our time since we hadn’t turned it in for several months (we hadn’t preached, and had been to maybe 2-3 meetings in several months). The CO was coming that week. We told him we had no time to turn in. He said he’d put us down for an hour for each month – surely we’d mentioned the truth to someone – we said no we had not – not sure what he did – but he would rather lie about our time than ask us what our issues were.
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John Baptist says:
June 8, 2015 at 12:43 pm
I just brought myself to watch the video while trying to be as objective as possible about what was being said. All i can say is the demonstration was totally scripted and staged and not from the heart. mmmm i wonder why DuH! Those parents should be ashamed of themselves and put in a mental institution for the atrocities they have brought upon their children.
Stepford brainwashed people. Im happy the son rebelled and its only a matter of time when he gets stronger and smarter and leaves for GOOD!
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Beige DelFuego says:
June 8, 2015 at 2:40 pm
So,please help me to understand.The children are taught to think,they go out and see the world,and when they come up with ideas that vary from their parent’s religion,they are shunned? Not able to speak to the rest of the family that is still in the church?How is this love?What is the incentive to ‘come back to the fold”? Its blackmail,isnt it?
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anonymous says:
June 8, 2015 at 3:37 pm
@Beige Delfuego, JW kids are not taught to think. They are taught to believe JW dogma and only JW dogma and if they do start to think and start wanting solid evidence like how do we prove that Jerusalem was not destroyed in 586-587 B.C.E., they will be told to “wait on Jehovah” and if the Society is wrong that the Society will change the doctrine that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 B.C.
The problem is that the Society has been proven wrong in many areas and since those teachings are essential to the religion living or dying, the Society will never change those core beliefs.
If a child gets baptized (shamed into it, if they don’t want to do it on their own at a very early age), then once they start to question core beliefs and want solid answers after being baptized (which they won’t get any answers that make any sense because those core beliefs are all man-made doctrines and not Bible based) the child has to make a decision: Either stay in the religion and go along to get along or start wanting answers (which they won’t get and told to “wait on Jehovah and finally realizing they have been scammed) or fade (considered weak and bad association but can still be talked to) or disassociate (write a letter which then determines that they are disfellowshippng themselves and shunned as bad association).
No matter how you slice it, children are coerced and tricked into getting baptized at an early age and can only associate with other Witness kids while they are under their parents’ roof so they aren’t allowed to make friends outside of the religion and so when they leave the religion and they have been baptized, they face a life of being shunned. Children or even adult Bible studies are never told anything except what the Watchtower wants them to see so they never hear anything else except good things about the JW religion and never anything bad. The Watchtower counts on children and any Bible study being ignorant about the Bible and they are all ignorant about the real history of the Watchtower organization before getting baptized.
Nobody in the religion is allowed to go onto so-called “apostate” web sites or read any literature that is critical of the Society. If they do read literature or do go onto “apostate” web sites and find out about all the lies and cover-ups, they are not allowed to tell anybody about it (even people outside the religion) or they will be called before a committee and disfellowshipped for apostasy if it has been found out what they talked about it to anybody.
What the Society will tell the person is that they brought “reproach” on Jehovah but what they really mean is that they cast dispersions on the Watchtower religion.
The Witnesses have been led to believe that God is the Organization and speaks through the organization and that if they do anything to make the Society look bad that they are bringing reproach on God, which is like the worst sin of all because they really do believe that God is directing the Organization.
All people who study with Jehovah’s Witnesses are taught early on that God owns them and own the world and made their life possible and they owe their life to God and so whatever God asks of them, they have to do and that includes putting God first in their lives. Bible studies are told early on that God comes before family members and friends.
If they had any friends before becoming a Witness, they are told that those old friends and relatives will want them to disown the religion and persecute them until they stop “studying” and Satan is using those people to draw them away from the “truth” and so paranoia sets in right away and so they either disown all their old friends and relatives, or bring them into the “truth” too so that they can all live together and live through Armageddon together into the “new world”.
If Witnesses don’t try and “witness” to all those old friends and relatives, then the Witness is made to feel guilty that they don’t care enough about those people to witness to them and so that is why some Witnesses make pests of themselves at any get together they may have with relatives or friends. They actually think if they don’t “witness” to those people that they are signing their death warrants at Armageddon.
Most Witnesses think that and it takes months and months of being out of the religion before those feelings go away but it’s web sites like this is what helps people to realize that those fears of Armageddon is no different than any other religion that uses the fear of being burned in hell is what keeps most people belonging to other religions as well. It’s either the fear of burning in hell or being killed at Armageddon. It’s just a evil cult tactic to keep people tied to a certain religion.
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Jonathan Drake says:
June 8, 2015 at 2:57 pm
I have always found it telling (while a believer I found it strange) how the shunning practice is supposed to work.
Why do they return to jehovah? Is it because they love him? No. Is it because they love the organization? No. The bible? No. Is it even because they learn their lesson? No. It’s because they miss their family! They even freely admit this is the reason and they never seem to notice that this in no way is an indicator that they learned any lesson or changed anything for any “good” reason. They just missed their family.
Or would think this fact being freely admitted in front of thousands at a time would cause some sort of dissonance.
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John Baptist says:
June 9, 2015 at 6:27 am
Just the fact that they only miss their family is the reason they come back should tell you in the first place that they really don’t care about the religion to begin with. Many have gone stealth and faded out and some avoid being tracked down by the elder police so as not to be disfellowshipped. I have heard of cases of elders disfellowshipping individuals just on hearsay without them ever being present at a judicial meeting. You don’t even have to say anything. These higher ups will do what they want and how they want irregardless of what the Bible really says. They are Grandmasters at being illusionists.
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anonymous says:
June 9, 2015 at 2:55 am
There is something really odd about Brenda Sutton in the video. If you maximize the screen and just watch her eyes, she seems scared of her husband or else very insecure about herself the way she keeps looking up at him and fiddling with her notes and he never looks at her at all. He seems proud of himself but not his wife. I see a woman who isn’t happy with her life at all.
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John Baptist says:
June 9, 2015 at 6:36 am
Spot on observation about the wife. They were both very nervous trying to deliver their not from the heart experience but rather a scripted demonstration. Hopefully one day they may look back when it all falls apart for them and they wake up and realize what a fool they made of themselves in this video. If she was my wife I might not look at her much either. Not a very secure person for sure. They may love their child but obviously in a limited capacity if you are willing to give it up for a manmade religion to begin with.
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Nemorino says:
June 9, 2015 at 5:59 am
It’s exactly this kind of exposure, to the media and the uninitiated public, of material intended solely for an uncritical, worshipful audience will ultimately prove their undoing. What’s being said and practiced in the darkened corners of Watchtowerland is dragged into the blinding glare of daylight.
Then too, one can’t help but wonder how one who cynically suppresses his misgivings and succumbs to the humiliation and grovelling required for readmittance, cannot bitterly resent (1) the family that insists on it; and (2) the elders and the organization that subject him/her to the humiliation of running their gauntlet of harsh scrutiny.
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J*L*C*R says:
June 9, 2015 at 1:25 pm
Lets hope front-line news gets this story and airs it on international TV.
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Spiritualbrother says:
June 9, 2015 at 8:41 pm
Quite an evil cult.
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← Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
Divide and conquer: Why Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot be called a “family friendly” faith →
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
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Posted on June 5, 2015
In a video clip from the 2015 convention series, Robert and Brenda Sutton are praised for shunning their child
In a video clip from the 2015 convention series, Robert and Brenda Sutton are praised for shunning their child
It is a predicament that all too many visitors to this website, myself included, find themselves in: believing Jehovah’s Witness relatives cutting off all contact in the belief they must do so in order to show loyalty to God.
And there appears to be no sign of Watchtower relaxing its cruel shunning policy, which it has repeatedly denied even having – especially if a video from the 2015 regional convention series is anything to go by.
In the video, which has just started to be circulated on Facebook, a JW couple identified as Robert and Brenda Sutton are interviewed about their experience raising three children. It emerges that one of their children was disfellowshipped not long after getting a new job where there was “questionable association with coworkers.”
The Suttons, who are now working at the Watchtower bethel facilities in Warwick, unashamedly talk about how they “cut off all association” with their child after he or she was disciplined by elders. They describe how the shunning eventually led to him or her returning to the organization.
After they give their experience, the speaker praises the couple for their “excellent example” as they exit the stage to applause from the audience.
What makes this video especially difficult to watch is how the parents who did the shunning are quick to portray themselves as victims in this scenario, with seemingly no thought for the trauma of ostracism inflicted on their child.
“It was one of the hardest things that I ever had to face,” relates Brenda Sutton. “I had many sleepless nights praying to Jehovah, but I came to realize that we needed to trust in what Proverbs 22 and verse 6 says: ‘train a boy in the way he should go, even when he grows old he will not depart from it.'”
In other words: train up a boy to believe what you believe without question, and if he grows up and walks away from it of his own free will you can bank on him returning if you are prepared to emotionally blackmail him.
“We began to question ourselves as parents,” says Robert Sutton. “Where did we go wrong? Were we too strict? Were we too lenient? Just what did we do that was wrong?”
Guilt and self-loathing are typical by-products of cult indoctrination, and few things induce these toxic feelings quite as well as an adult son or daughter walking away from the faith despite the best efforts of believing parents to super-impose their beliefs on him or her.
“But one thing we did for sure, and that’s in addition to multiple times with praying to Jehovah,” added Robert Sutton. “We made sure that we cling to our spiritual routine.”
Yes – staying busy, busy, busy in “Jehovah’s service” helps keep those feelings of guilt at bay. You may have let the Creator down by failing to calibrate your child’s brain to his specifications, but at least you can put in extra ministry time to compensate.
“What was it that moved your child to return to Jehovah?” asks the speaker.
“Well it was the missed association with the family,” says Brenda Sutton proudly and unflinchingly. “And here’s why, I had always told our kids… ‘I would die for you, I love you, would die for you, but if you ever leave Jehovah I wouldn’t be there’. And they knew that we wouldn’t waver on this. But sad to say, and as hard as it was, we had to cut off all association.”
Speaking for myself, those who are being shunned by JW relatives don’t want their relatives to die for them. They want them to live with them and be in their lives.
A person could easily find himself or herself in a situation where they choose to die for a complete stranger, perhaps a small child on a road as a car approaches, but that doesn’t mean they have full love for the person they are saving. They are merely showing basic human solidarity for a vulnerable person in peril.
Real love is when you stand by your child no matter what, through good times and bad, and sadly JW parents who capitulate to the cruel and baseless rules about shunning can never lay claim to such love. Their love is conditional – based on their offspring sharing the beliefs they have been indoctrinated to accept, usually by their own parents.
Speaking as someone who has recently become a father, I know that wild horses couldn’t pull me away from my baby daughter – especially not something as frivolous and petty as ideological differences.
It saddens me to think my father once felt his own love for me was unbreakable, perhaps when he once cradled me in his arms when I was a baby. The fact that a cult can erode such strong parental bonds only underscores for me how corrosive Watchtower ideology is, and how important it is that it be combated, refuted and dismantled wherever possible.
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Further reading…
◾Friendly Atheist article
◾If shunning loved ones is scriptural, why does Watchtower publicly deny the practice?
◾JWsurvey articles on shunning
◾JWfacts article on disfellowshipping and shunning
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183 Responses to 2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
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RC says:
June 10, 2015 at 2:02 am
Hi ,
Have got the following books :-
1) Captives of a concept
2) Raymond Franz’s (Crisis of Conscience and In Search of Christian Freedom)
3) The Gentile Times Reconsidered
4) Steve Hassan’s (Freedom of Mind and Combatting Mind Control)
Is there any other books which is required reading for helping our loved ones get out of this evil cult. Please suggest.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 10, 2015 at 2:54 am
@RC, another good one is “The Armageddon Cult” by Daniel LeEarl Hall and I liked “The Four Presidents of the Watchtower Society” by Edmond C. Gruss and also “Apocalypse Delayed” by M. James Penton.
Crisis of Conscience was my favorite followed by In Search of Christian Freedom but The Gentile Times Reconsidered is really good too. The thing that I like about The Gentile Reconsidered is how he shows from 17 different ways, how 607 can be disproved and that the Society even admits in one the Society’s own publications that there is no evidence for 607 but they are waiting for it to happen some day to prove that they were right after all. Also, it shows how unchristian and dishonest the Society is when they disfellowshipped Mr. Jonsson when he proved the Society wrong about 607 to keep him quiet. Doing that to that man, was the lowest of the low and it shows that they will resort to throwing even the most honest and sincere Witness under the bus and destroy their reputation to save their own skins and their publishing and real estate empire. Doing that alone to that man, should be enough of a reason why any honest Witness should take a stand against the Society and never attend another meeting until those men on the Governing Body grovel at the feet of 8 million Witnesses, begging for their forgiveness for what they have done to them.
Reply
RC says:
June 12, 2015 at 10:30 pm
Hi anonymous,
Thanks . Will check out the new books as well.
Reply
Ken says:
June 12, 2015 at 7:47 pm
Nice summary of books.
Reply
David says:
June 10, 2015 at 9:33 am
I never realized that the WTBTS was soo secretive about its shunning practices. After an episode of JWPodcast where it was mentioned how they deny it I dug around the jw.org site and noticed how they mention things like “people are free to leave” and are very vague about something that every rank in file JW knows is hanging over them like a guillotine should they stray away and break the rules.
Even the way its presented in this video, the speaker as the representative of the Society did not specifically make any mention of the shunning, the parents are directed to express what “helped” bring their child back into the fold. The mom finally says that she told them “I will not be there”, and all I can see is the reactions in the crowds of people nodding their heads in agreement and approval.
They don’t have to outright say it anymore because its been soo ingrained that every JW knows what she is saying. Its incredibly insidious and evil.
Reply
Fedup says:
June 10, 2015 at 10:46 am
People are waking up from the truth! Guess this will be a common practice now … optimizing. :-)
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-09/sale-of-jehovah-witnesses-halls-an-expansion-plan/6533544
Reply
anonymous says:
June 10, 2015 at 12:55 pm
@Fedup, they could sell 90% of all the Kingdom Halls and the rest still in the cult would still believe it’s the “truth” because, after all, didn’t the Society predict that “the love of the greater number would cool off?” The Society are experts at cult mind control and it’s so sad. If 90% of all the Witnesses fell away, the 10% would be prouder than ever of themselves.
I am glad I am not one of those fools who may experience the downfall last when all those around them could see the writing on the wall and got out when when the gettin’ was good. Right now, they are all still riding on an arrogant high.
Someday, they will look back and remember how stupid they were. That is what I am doing right now.
Reply
Mac says:
June 12, 2015 at 12:58 pm
Anonymous, I very much enjoy reading your comments. You present cohesive thought out arguments. Sometimes I have noticed that you look back at the years spent in service to the organization as a waste. I can understand as I feel I have lost valuable time myself. But your life experience gives you a great amount of credibility, you really know the inner workings and subtleties of this organization. I thank you for your valuable insight. There are some excellent comments on this post, thanks to all the contributors and to Lloyd for providing this service.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 13, 2015 at 4:46 am
@Mac, thank you for saying that!!
Reply
Kat says:
June 10, 2015 at 11:05 am
David they lie to the public about shunning.
“A spokesman for the church in Australia, Sydney solicitor Vincent Toole, dismissed the allegations and said shunning was a”myth.”
http://www.smh.com.au/national/jehovahs-witnesses-a-cruel-cult-20130315-2g5x3.html
Reply
Observer says:
June 10, 2015 at 12:29 pm
I was raised a Jw along with my two sisters in the 70s. I have proof from long ago up until now they shun family members of all ages . This is very sad. My mother is the only one still a Jw. My dad never was he died in Jan and mom just won’t let go of this cult that has controlled her for 50 years.
Reply
Andres Torres says:
June 10, 2015 at 3:57 pm
Wasn’t this a youtube video? Looks like the original was taken down in only two days. Amazing!
Reply
Exhausted says:
June 11, 2015 at 2:09 am
Anonymous….AMEN.
Reply
Barb Moor says:
June 11, 2015 at 2:54 am
I’ll bet “Family Fun Night” at their house sucked big-time. These people are robotic. As Cedars said, it’s all about them and their suffering.
One thing that intrigues me, over and over, is that they feel this discipline is DIRECT from Jehovah and don’t accept that it’s often slanted/ignorant/biased/bored/hateful elders that dole out this punishment. Yikes.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 11, 2015 at 7:24 am
Barb, I can’t imagine how much fun that “fun” night was with those parents. They did everything “right” in their eyes by going to all the meetings together, having their weekly Bible study with the kids and going in service together and then they “scheduled” a family night together that was supposed to be fun. Their life sounds like it was so structured like it was a blue print they were following.
The mom also says she kept up her pioneering so that basically was a full-time job for her. With any full time job for a woman, means that when she gets home, she’s got another 3 hours of homework to get done every night. So, what time did these people have for a close relationship with their kids?
To them, scheduling a “fun” night with their kids was supposed to keep this kid protected from outside “bad” influence for the rest of his lie and from getting a job that “led” to his getting disfellowshipped.
What did his getting a job have to do with their training anyway? Obviously, the kid was out of the house by that time because they said they didn’t have anything to do with him anymore and that wouldn’t have been possible if he still lived in the same house, or else they kicked him out of the house when he got disfellowshipped.
If they kicked him out of the house, that would have looked ever more cruel than how they treated him in the demonstration and I have a sneaking suspicion that is what happened but they had to leave it out just in case “apostates” would have taken that and run with it.
If the kid was out of the house and living on his own, then why in the world, would they have wondered what they did “wrong”. Once a kid is out and on his own, their job is done. They can’t be responsible for what he does once he leaves the house.
Are these parents so arrogant to think that what they did as parents is going to keep him “protected” from outside influence the rest of his life? What parents can watch their kid every minute of every day for the rest of their lives? People need to realize that once a kid leaves the nest that they are now responsible for themselves and can’t blame the parents for their mistakes (if it was a mistake so then why would the parents ask themselves where they went wrong?)
If the kid was out on his own and did something to get himself disfellowshipped, then the parents could have said something like: “We hated to do it, but we followed orders from the Society so as to make him see the bad course he was following so he’d come back to the “truth” and save his life. It was really hard for us to do, but all we cared about was him living through Armageddon so we had to be strong.” That would have made more sense than the only explanation of why he came back was because he missed the family.
I have a feeling that the kid couldn’t survive on his own and that they kicked him out of the house and he came groveling back because he was starving to death or something like that and he had no choice but to come back and follow their rules to get back in their good graces.
You can tell by the look on the mother’s face that there is a whole lot more to the story than that little 3 minute skit.
All the Society was trying to accomplish with that story is that if parents want their kids to come back into the “fold” that they have to shun their kids. But for every one kid that works on (which they will never talk about), there’s probably 30 it does just the opposite and makes them more sure than ever that no loving Christian religion would treat an erring child like that and make them more determined than ever to never have anything to do with it.
I can only think of maybe 2 or 3 out of at least 20 kids that I personally know of that got disfellowshipped and never came back. I am glad for those kids that they saw it for what it really is, even if they don’t have anything to do with the parents anymore. The kids are better off.
Some parents who really do love their kids cry when they talk about those kids but others are arrogant and could care less about those kids now. The parents who really do love those kids and do shun them, are miserable. I think that contributes to so many in the congregations being on anti-depressants.
In that video, the guy introducing those parents made a comment like “perhaps” there are some in the audience going through this very thing…I can guarantee you that probably most of those people in that audience are experiencing having to shun a loved family member or a close friend. It has to be the most depressed group of people on the face of the earth because of the shunning policy.
Also, the kid’s job isn’t want caused him to get disfellowshipped. It’s like the leaked elder’s video. It wasn’t the girl that forced that kid to commit fornication. He did it on his own. That girl didn’t rape him.
Reply
Wanderer says:
June 11, 2015 at 2:21 pm
What sort of brainwashing techniques teach parents that totally cutting off a child is normal and appropriate. As a parent I can’t ever imagine how I could do that to my Kids, not ever.
There is nothing more conditional than the unconditional love of the JW’s.
Reply
just asking says:
June 11, 2015 at 11:10 am
Blackmail is criminal in the part of the world I live.
How possible is it to get hold of this book elders use for judging others? I need a lawyer to check this out.
Reply
Excelsior! says:
June 12, 2015 at 10:36 am
Shepherd the flock of God, the elder manual, is available as a PDF on line.
According to the lawyer for the WTBTS in Australia, they can get away with this because the baptism question 2 acts as a verbal contract.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
Ted says:
June 11, 2015 at 11:22 am
“Their life sounds like it was so structured like it was a blue print they were following.”
Nicely summed up Anonymous. We were instructed to make out a schedule
for all our activities. The CO would ask, are we sticking to our schedule?
He would then counsel to let relatives know when we would be at meetings
or out in f, service, so they wouldn’t turn up and interfere with the blueprint.
( There was no time allotted for “Worldly” flesh and blood.)
“Family fun night” AH ! at last, a rest from the Bible, Sorry! No competitive
games, no worldly video games, no card games. Heaven forbid !
Let’s make it charades, identifying Bible characters. — When I used to get
together with other JWs for a social evening ( After the meeting)
it always ended up with that kind of “Entertainment”.
No wonder they have a problem with youths leaving.
Reply
wifibandit says:
June 12, 2015 at 11:43 am
The same type of shunning will be praised around the world. Here is another example, in Spanish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n884ylRFsCA&feature=youtu.be&t=1h1m48s
Reply
anonymous says:
June 12, 2015 at 6:07 pm
David Splane gave the weirdest talk on jwbroadcasting called “There was no 1900 year old Faithful and Discreet Slave”. I listened to it over and over again and as far as I can tell, even though the name of the talk is that there was no Faithful and Discreet slave for 1900 years, the closest description that he could come up with is the Catholic Church. He talks about the Catholic Church being the first of preaching the Bible all over the world and he doesn’t say anything bad about them after that and then he gets to the end an just ends it with “and so there was no 1900 year old faithful and discreet slave. That talk even though it was interesting, seemed really pointless to me.
I take back my earlier description of agony and worry written all over his face. I don’t know what to think of his personality, whether he’s deluded or dumb.
Reply
Excelsior! says:
June 13, 2015 at 5:39 am
Anonymous,
Dear lady, may I echo the sentiments of previous contributors and say thank you for your comments.
I think that Stephen Lett has some problem with stammering, poor chap. That is why he overemphasises all his words. I pity anyone with any impediment, no matter how I hate their choices.
His over the top gestures….I have no explanation for those!
I have no idea if he believes the balderdash or not. I think that there’s evidence that he is deluded, and I think that some of the others on the governing body members too.
I try to hate the actions and decisions, while having some regard for their humanity. I don’t always succeed!
One thing is certain. These “gentlemen” are continuing flat out to teach and enforce shunning. It’s a disgusting betrayal of peoples’ very humanity, and we all need to help eradicate it.
I am always educated by your comments, anonymous. Thanks for being kind enough to help others through challenging times.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
anonymous says:
June 13, 2015 at 7:36 am
@Excelsior, thank you so much for your kind words. It helps me too to get my inward thoughts about the Organization out and written down instead of just rolling around and around in my head all night long. Writing down a person’s thoughts is good therapy, at least it works for me. Peace be with you also!!!
Reply
Simon Kestral says:
June 13, 2015 at 1:48 am
Splane said Catholics did more missionary work than Protestants, but still failed to qualify as faithful and discreet.
Splane and his GB associates claim the title for themselves, but that is presumptuous. Only the master can reward his slaves with authority over all the master’s belongings. And the master, Jesus, has not given that reward yet.
Given WT’s flip flops on the faithful and discreet slave doctrine, starting with Russell in 1881, I don’t see how a thinking person could believe the position they have taken now.
It’s a big lie, and voids their claim of authority from God. Once you understand they lack authority, the other flaws in their teaching can be dismissed as doctrines of men, not even worth arguing about.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 13, 2015 at 2:58 am
@Simon, I know that Splane claimed faithful and discreet slave for themselves (didn’t explain why though) but he didn’t explain why the Catholic Church didn’t fill that description or did I miss something? He credited the Catholic Church with missionary work etc. and how the other religions didn’t do that but didn’t explain clearly why the Catholic Church didn’t fit that description. He went on and on why the protestants didn’t qualify but I didn’t catch why the Catholics don’t.
Reply
Excelsior! says:
June 13, 2015 at 5:46 am
Simon,
Good biblical points, sir. Thank you for reminding us that this slave has yet to be appointed.
Further, since when does a slave get to boss people around?
Jesus spent a lot of time teaching about humility. He ministered to his disciples, thus setting an example.
I think that the FADS is a parable, but if there is a FADS, or a class that is the FADS, then they should be humble and serving the Christian congregations selflessly.
The WTBTS is a cult, and is as far from humble Christianity as it is possible to be. They have no claim to being appointed by anyone.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
anonymous says:
June 13, 2015 at 2:16 am
I can’t stop thinking about the demonstration with Mr. and Mrs. Sutton and how carefully it was all scripted.
Mrs. Sutton made a mistake when she started out by saying “I always….” and then she said “well, I said”…. So, she made a mistake and went off the script. If the video has been removed that would be the reason I think when she started off by saying “I always”…. It was like she really goofed because it made it sound like she said it over and over again to the kids that she brainwashing them into following the religion or else she wasn’t going to be there for them. That seems like a threat more than anything.
If you want your kid to follow your religion, it should be for the right reasons, not out of threats of excommunication. You do it or else I will disown you. That doesn’t sound very loving at all.
Then when the father says “We kept asking ourselves, were we too strict or weren’t we strict enough”. That was also so very scripted. They read every word the way the Society wanted them to read it.
That was also very scripted because the Society wanted all those people in the audience not to blame themselves if their kid got disfellowshipped and haven’t come back and got reinstated so that all those parents in the audience can wipe their hands of it and not blame themselves as long as they followed the Society’s instructions with meeting attendance, field service, reading the Bible and their “fun” nights and their weekly Bible study.
The Society was telling parents, to make sure you do all these things too and if you can pioneer too, well, that’s even better. You need to do everything the Society tells you to do as parents and if the kid goes astray, well, you can wipe your hands of their death at Armageddon because none of it was your “fault”.
And that works for a lot of people. They will wipe their hands of their kid, thinking it’s all the kids’ fault whatever the kid does now that they have moved out of the house or even if the kid is living at home and does something “wrong”, the parents can wipe their hands of it and not blame themselves for whatever the kids do.
It was intended to keep parents from being depressed at the thought of their kids dying at Armageddon if they keep that attitude and follow the instructions from the Society. It is intended to keep parents of disfellowshipped kids from thinking too hard about what they might have done wrong.
The problem is that if their lives are so structured like that, that when a kid gets out on their own, they are like a spring that is let loose. No parent can do everything “right” and sometimes the parents can be too strict or not strict enough.
It’s not to say that parents should blame themselves for when their kid does something “wrong” but the parents should ask the kids “what did I do wrong?” They should ask the kid that but instead the kid is disfellowshipped and the kid isn’t even allowed to tell the parents what they did wrong. They are not to listen to the kid even before the kid does something “wrong”. These people didn’t have time to listen to these three kids. Having three kids to raise and having full time jobs leaves very little time to know their kids when they have all that extra stuff the have to do when they are Witnesses.
What if the kid didn’t like all that stuff they had to do like meetings and Bible reading and not being able to celebrate birthdays or Christmas or whatever? What if they believe in evolution and not the Bible? Is the child free to express themselves? No. That is the whole problem with this religion. Everyone has to follow the script and nobody is allowed to go off the script and be themselves. If you don’t follow the script, you will be ostracized so in order not to be ostracized, you follow the script. If a child has a brain in his head and doesn’t want to be controlled like that, they will lead a double life.
If you compare that demonstration with the Suttons with demonstrations on other television shows with personal experiences with other religions, it is far different. In those other television shows, the parents are out their happy and singing but in this demonstration, the wife seemed scared and the father seemed under mind control. Those other people in other religious television shows are under cult mind control too, but at least they all seem to be in a real “happy place”. It’s not the forced “happy face” that Witnesses are told to put on.
Reply
Excelsior! says:
June 13, 2015 at 5:54 am
anonymous,
I totally agree. She looks frightened and she does have cards in her hands that she keeps referring to throughout.
I found this video disturbing and desperately sad.
So many lives diminished.
Great comment!
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Reply
NoJesus4Me says:
June 18, 2015 at 10:44 pm
The interesting part for me was when the mother said, and i’m paraphrasing, “if you ever leave Jehovah i will not be there”. What makes her think she can deny her children their 1st amendment rights? The Freedom of Religion clause states: The First Amendment’s free exercise clause allows a person to hold whatever religious beliefs he or she wants, and to exercise that belief by attending religious services, praying in public or in private, proselytizing or wearing religious clothing, such as yarmulkes or headscarves. Also included in the free exercise clause is the right not to believe in any religion, and the right not to participate in religious activities.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 19, 2015 at 4:31 am
@NoJesus4Me, unfortunately, freedom of religion allows people to join mind-controlling cults who prey on people with little or knowledge of the Bible and those cults are able to control them to the extent that they will abandon their own flesh and blood in favor of eight ordinary men in New York and even when they do learn what is in the Bible, dismiss everything they see in that Bible that shows them that they are in a mind-controlling cult, in favor of those eight ordinary men who couldn’t punch their way out of a paper bag without somebody there to tell them how to do it.
Reply
KeepOnSeeking says:
June 13, 2015 at 6:47 am
Very sad. After being out of the Watchtower for about a year now, sometimes I forget how completely delusional this way of thinking is.
Reply
just asking says:
June 13, 2015 at 7:44 am
Our watchtower or the jw org (I actually have never known what exactly it is referred to even when I grew up in this thing), always convinced us how being a pioneer always brought happiness, I personally became one & tried being happy but I realized I was forcing it. The family in the video was forcing it because that is what they’re supposed to do.
The society (by the way what’s their right description?), teaches how they’re the most loving religion the earth should proud of, yet they treat their family inhumanly for the crime of simply disagreeing on religion. We were actually told how we should never feel bad when our good Jehovah kills our relatives who are non jws at Armageddon, we should actually throw a party & invite all neighbors. I was wondering why the Jehovah I love so much can be so bad.
I am not surprised because its a jw thing, they’re simply unloving.
By the way, anonymous, I wish to be your bible study! I think your could conduct progressive bible studies.
Reply
Simon Kestral says:
June 13, 2015 at 8:37 am
Splane’s argument against the Catholics goes like this:
a) without spiritual food to dispense, there is no faithful and discreet slave
b) without a Bible, there is no spiritual food
c) before the printing press circa 1440, Bibles were hand copied and rare
d) the Bible was written in Latin, only priests had easy access to Bibles
e) some priests even faked the words of their mass when they forgot the Latin!
Fakery? His whole argument is fake. It’s a red herring that serves to confuse and distract. They don’t want people to focus on the real issue: the GB’s claim to the title of faithful and discreet slave is a lie; their authority is fake.
Once we understand that, their other lies melt like ice on a hot day.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 13, 2015 at 10:35 am
@Simon, I might be “only” a woman and and an old one at that, but I swear that I could have come up a whole lot better talk than that one of Splane’s to try and prove that the Governing Body is the faithful and discreet slave, even if I had to make up a whole bunch of stuff. He just gets to the end of his talk and says “so there was no faithful and discreet slave for 1900 years” and that was supposed to be good enough for this make believe sister who would ask that question since now the Society says that even though for many years they said there was a faithful and discreet slave during those 1900 years and now there really wasn’t a faithful and discreet slave for 1900 years.
I think these men think that if they just keep talking with words and more words, that the one asking the question will just give up, expecting an explanation that actually does make sense.
I don’t believe that any one of the men on the Governing Body can actually explain all that “new light” in the July 2013 Watchtower. According to that July 2013 Watchtower, the faithful and discreet hasn’t been appointed yet so at the end of Splane’s talk, he should have added “and there isn’t a faithful and discreet slave now either”. Just being the producer of religious literature doesn’t make them the faithful and discreet slave.
The funny thing is that at the beginning of his talk, he talks about how there has always been “anointed” but there hasn’t always been the faithful and discreet slave so my question is: How could there be anointed if they didn’t have Bibles and couldn’t read it if they did have a Bible until the invention of the printing press in the 1400’s ? Why didn’t God help those people along during all that time so they’d come up with a printing press to make the Bible available to everyone? Why did God have to wait until puny men came up with the printing press?
Splane as much as said that the only ones who could have been anointed would have been the clergy since they were the only ones that had Bibles and could read, right? What about the rest of the people? Why just only owners of Bibles who could read those Bibles would have that privilege of being anointed of God???? So God “anointed” those people during those times before the printing press, just by virtue of having and reading a Bible?
I don’t know what women he is referring to when they supposedly come up with those questions to the Governing Body, but I would not be satisfied with his answer to that question. Those men obviously think that we women are stupid to fall for such a simple and pointless answer. That goes to show just how stupid THEY are.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 13, 2015 at 11:12 am
I have more questions about David Splanes talk. He said that for 1900 years there wasn’t a faithful and discreet slave.
The Society says that there was a Governing Body in Jerusalem during the first century until the end of the first century when the “apostasy” set in. In Acts, it says that there were thousands baptized as Christians. Since there was supposedly a Governing Body in Jerusalem during that time, why didn’t the Governing Body organize all those Christians to do the preaching work? Somewhere in the Greek scriptures (I think it was Paul) said that Christianity had been preached throughout the entire earth. So, then since there was supposedly a Governing Body directing the preaching work, then that Governing Body should have made sure that the message about God, spread instead of letting it die out at the end of the first century. Why would God let it die out like that, especially since there was a supposed Governing Body in Jerusalem? That Governing Body must not have been doing their job very well or maybe it was because the printing press hadn’t been invented yet so they’d have Watchtowers to sell that explains the Bible because after all, the Bible is so hard to understand, that they’d have to have people to interpret it for those people. But then, why would God come up with something that was so important for mankind but they wouldn’t be able to understand it without somebody to explain it to them? That doesn’t make any sense.
Also, since there was supposedly a Governing Body in Jerusalem until the end of the first century A.D. and you count forward 1900 years from 100 C.E., you come up with the year 2000 A.D. Is that when Splane was talking about now having a supposed Faithful and discreet slave, in the year 2000? I think Splane left out 100 years in his calculation because I think he was meaning at the beginning of the 19th century is when the Faithful and Discreet slave first showed up.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 13, 2015 at 11:15 am
I should have said that I think Splane added a hundred years, not left out 100 years.
Reply
Simon Kestral says:
June 13, 2015 at 11:47 am
@anonymous, it’s impossible to resolve all the contradictions and inconsistencies of WT doctrine.
Jesus said there will be two men in the field; one taken, another abandoned. So his followers need not huddle together in one place to survive. Jesus will choose and take people according to their individual merit.
So I feel no need to labor over the conflicting details of WT’s flawed teaching.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 13, 2015 at 1:38 pm
Simon, it is too hard for me not to labor over all the contradictions and inconsistencies. If I could do that, my brain would be a lot happier. What helps for me to put it down in writing then my head can go on to other stuff less confusing.
Reply
just asking says:
June 13, 2015 at 11:59 pm
We all know how confused and confusing those guys can get. Ask any random jw now what the latest stand on the generation & the F&DS teaching is, you will be surprised.
Tomorrow Tony will wakeup & tell all how the FS has always been there starting with Abel through to Moses & Jesus appointed a new spiritual FS, since the first never put faith in him(Jesus). Then the FS continued through history since there were sincere Bible students who even sacrificed their lives trying to preserve & translate the Bible.
Then CT.Russell happened to continue from where the rest stopped till now.
clap clap clap.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 14, 2015 at 2:47 am
I would give my eye teeth to confront them directly.
Reply
Wanderer says:
June 14, 2015 at 4:12 am
And I would give mine to be there to watch! I think you would run rings around them, if they were men enough to debate with you. Your knowledge and critical thinking skills are just so good.
Reply
anonymous says:
June 14, 2015 at 5:26 am
And the sad thing is that Anthony Morris’ son Paul married a girl from our congregation (Raquell) and before they got married, he visited and even gave a talk or two in our hall. If I only knew then what I know now!!
Reply
anonymous says:
June 14, 2015 at 5:37 am
@Wanderer, I forgot to say “thank you” for saying that.
Reply
Wanderer says:
June 15, 2015 at 12:22 am
@anonymous thank you for your well written, knowledgable comments. Even though I faded a long time ago, I get a lot of pressure from my family to return. This website and comments from people like you really make me realise what a good desicion we made in leaving and what a dishonest organisation the JW’s are.
anonymous says:
June 15, 2015 at 3:31 am
@Wanderer, thank you again for such a nice comment. That really makes my day.
As long as your relatives are still trying to get you to come back, I have something you might ask them sometime and I bet they can’t answer it for you. It goes like this:
In Genesis 12:1-3, Abraham is told to leave his own people and country (Ur) to go to Canaan and that God was going to make a great nation out of him and all the families of the earth would bless themselves by means of Abraham. At Genesis 12:6, it says that when they got to Canaan, the Canaanites were already living in the land.
We as Witnesses were always told that while the Isrealites were in Egypt that those people (Canaanites) came into Canaan and took over the land but Genesis 12:6 clearly says that when Abraham arrived, the Canaanites were already living there.
Now in Exodus chapter 6:5, God is telling Moses that the reason God is bringing the Israelites out of Egypt is because of the Covenant that God established with Abraham that God was going to give Abraham the land where Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had been alien residents.
So, the Society lied to us when they say that God had every right to kill off all those people because they took over the land that belonged to the Israelites. That land never belonged to the Israelites. They were alien residents in the land when they were asked to move to Canaan and the land was already inhabited.
Also, in Genesis 25:1-4, it says that after Sarah died, Abraham married Keturah and it tells about all the children that Abraham had with her and one of his boys was called Midian. So, if you take the nations that came out of Jacob and Esau and Keturah with her children, the land of Canaan was already filled with Abraham’s children by the time of the Exodus and yet those Israelites leaving Egypt were to go to the land of Canaan and kill off all those people who were descendents of Abraham including the Midianites (Numbers 31).
When Moses left Egypt the first time, he went to Midian and married a Midianite woman and had Midianite children and here he was told to kill off all of Abraham’s offspring, including the Midianites. Does that make any sense?
At that time, all those people, including the Midianites had already made a great nation out of Abraham. So, why was Moses told to kill them all off????
The Society lies when they say that those Canaanite people moved into that country and so that is why he had every right to kill them all off because they didn’t want to leave.
Reply
Wanderer says:
June 15, 2015 at 4:47 am
@anonymous thank you for the fantastic reply. I have to be very careful as to what I say, my elder brother (older and an elder) would try to disfellowship us for being apostate at any opportunity. I think he sees us not going anymore as a “shame” on the good standing the rest of the family have. My parents are not getting any younger and are such good grandparents, I wouldn’t want to jeapordize their relationship with my kids or us. It is not a fair situation as I can’t speak my mind for fear of being cut off from my parents, it’s like a religious peer pressure!
anonymous says:
June 15, 2015 at 5:02 am
My family are like that too. Even if I bring up anything, they refuse to listen or comprehend. At least you still have a good relationship with your family.
Reply
Ted says:
June 14, 2015 at 10:46 am
The July 15 / 2011, WT, stated. “The message is clear. Our love for
Jehovah must be stronger than our love for unfaithful family members”.
That statement came, after recounting the tale of JHVH striking “Dead”
the sons of Aaron.
This is typical of the way that WT org, uses the Bible. — To threaten
and intimidate. Is it possible to truly love someone, when in effect
they’ve got a gun pointed at your head? And threaten to kill you,
unless your love for them is not stronger than your love for anyone
else?
And who are the “Unfaithful Relatives” that we must shun in order to
demonstrate our love for JHVH ? In many cases they are people
to whom truth matters. But they have not found it in the WT, org,!
The so called unfaithful ones. Cannot accept, that One Generation
lasts 115 years, and still counting. Or the shape shifting F & D,S
nonsense. –Russell– All anointed remnant– GB, currently 7 members.
Slave appointed in apostolic times? – Wrong, now changed to 1919
Also unacceptable to reasoning people. Is the the switcheroo on the
1935 cut off point for anointed qualification. Under which most, if not
all GB present members would “Not Qualify”. So now that has flipped
and the date left open ended. Now anointed GB, can be produced
ad infinitum
I’m delighted to be numbered among the unfaithful, which in their view
means a rejection of WT, org, teachings. But in reality it’s clearing the
the mind of all the see sawing rubbish. The Bible says, “God does not
change”. That alone tells us they’re not getting their info, from him.
Reply
Pickled brain says:
June 14, 2015 at 3:42 pm
@ Ted your comments NAILED the GB to the STAKE or should I say CROSS??!
Reply
JJ says:
June 15, 2015 at 4:58 am
To all those Game of Thrones fans out there;
Have you noticed how the High Sparrow acts like a pious Jehovah’s Witness elder??? (Probably a Branch Committee Member or some other ‘high rank from the Society) Isn’t it funny how he refers all of his decisions to his Holy Book and his fellows on the Body of Septums???
How the “trial” is going to be much like a Judical Committee in some Kingdom Hall basement???
It seems that the TV shows producers and the writers understand authoritarian religion much better than the regular guy-on-the-street! Although this show is fantasy and fictional, it is based on facts and historical narratives and the scenes dealing with the different religions and their inner workings would make for intelligent discussions among people.
Reply
ruth lee says:
June 17, 2015 at 1:24 am
what interesting comments and valid no doubt we are all feeling the pinch are we not has it occurred to anyone that all the prophecies with reguards to judgement is going to start at the top of the pyramid there is a smashing instrument coming and lo and behold those who should shepherd Jesus dear sheep are first after all they claim to be so responsible for those sheep i remember as a child asking my dad what it meant when 1 got lost and the shepherd went looking for the sheep he didnt smack it and rough housed it back into the fold or threatened it that poor sheep was put in the bosom position for safe keeping my dad had no answer just vague waffle it is very clear to me our Lord will be the judge of mankind not us our job is to be human and act in a humane way with all the attributes of a human not a machine just a few thoughts for today
Reply
ruth lee says:
June 17, 2015 at 2:00 am
post script has it occured to any of you out there that we are feeding each other and getting stronger because we have been so starved and we have such faith as not to be abandoned just when we need the help having these thought provoking comments and a collective consciousness reguardless of belief or what conclusions we come to the overriding thing that comes through is not hatred or getting even but genuine love for damaged people so keep the comments coming i need them so much and just to know we are not alone and isolated because some of us really could not cope at all on a lighter note i have requested my husband to not ever accept any assignment at the assembly where we are held up as shining examples what pressure on my kids he is rather bemused but how can i run with the hare and hunt with the hounds the thought of being scrutinzed by genuine people and me having to lie in front of thousands of people would feel like an ultimate betrayal of honesty
Reply
more questions than answers says:
June 17, 2015 at 7:09 am
As someone who was raised in the organization but, have been ‘inactive’ for the past 4 years…I have questions for this group. If it is a ‘man made’ religion and rubbish…What do you all believe? Are you athiest, like Cedars? Are you Christian, and attend a non-denominational church? I’m curious as to where most of us ‘land’ after being a JW.
Reply
Gameisover says:
June 17, 2015 at 11:18 am
All witnesses are convinced that “there is nowhere to go”
If they leave the organization(besides loosing their families). Those two thoughts are a deterrant.
They’ve had pounded in their brains the words of Peter:
“Lord, where shall we go, YOU have words of everlasting life”. Talk about twisting the scriptures! The “you”, they say is the Watchtower Society! But we all know it’s Jesus Christ.
So for those who are religious and want to continue being Christians, they have plenty of choices.
Where I live, most are either becoming atheist or Catholics. They reason it is apostolic.
I know I’ve never been so happy, in spite of the shunning.
What a breath of fresh air to be free from them!!!
Reply
Pat says:
June 17, 2015 at 8:04 pm
Hearing it spoken out loud like this clip makes me squirm to think once I would not have thought twice about it. Then, when it happened to me when I sent in my disassociation letter I experienced the reality of shunning even to the point where my mother on her deathbed refused to see me.
Reply
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← 2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
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Divide and conquer: Why Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot be called a “family friendly” faith
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Posted on June 15, 2015
Jehovah's Witness beliefs are not as conducive to keeping families together as you might think
Jehovah’s Witness beliefs are not as conducive to keeping families together as you might think
They are a familiar sight walking through residential areas, all dressed up with their Bibles and literature. Eagerly, they go from house to house ready and willing to warn of a looming doomsday they believe the Bible foretells.
They are Jehovah’s Witnesses, and their ministry has been the subject of controversy from its inception. Their “in your face” approach to religion has historically been met with mixed feelings.
Modern democratic society does generally allow people to visit homes with a religious message, but what if their motives are more far-reaching? Suppose their endgame is to acquire a new volunteer for their religious corporation, and they’re willing to stretch the truth to make this happen? Is it right of them to bring deception to people’s doorsteps in an attempt to increase their chances of gaining a human resource?
Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t immediately tell those to whom they preach the whole story of what it means to be in their religion. One example of this is that they don’t explain that membership in “good standing” requires a special type of maintenance.
Retaining a “good standing” as a Witness requires maintaining a social distance from unbelievers. Before you can even join you’ll be expected to change your standards as regards relationships, and keep it that way.
What Witness preachers neglect to mention early on is that joining them could very well mean breaking ties with friends and family. That crucial information doesn’t come in until much later.
In the beginning, they’ll say a simple home Bible study under their tutelage, using only their literature, will answer all of life’s big questions. It’s going to be quite some time before they start to list the “bad associates” you must avoid if you wish to make progress.
Divide and conquer
In March of this year JW Broadcasting (the new Jehovah’s Witnesses televangelist channel) showed a short film featuring a fictitious boy named Marcus whose mother had recently been baptized (skip to 00:27:29)…
Marcus is not a Jehovah’s Witness, but his recently-converted mother begins studying with him, taking him to meetings and on the door-to-door ministry. Just before the film is played it is introduced by Governing Body helper John Ekrann, who says:
“…there is a great need for more zealous workers in the organization today. If you’re young are you trying to determine what to do with your life? Maybe pioneer? Work at Bethel? Or maybe pursue a career? It’s a big decision to make and requires many sincere prayers to Jehovah for wisdom. But if you are in a religiously divided household it could be that you are facing some unique challenges when deciding your future. This young man is going through just that…”
Notice how Ekrann is keen to emphasize to unconverted children, his target audience, the organization’s “great need” for workers. This statement reveals the real purpose of the Witness preaching work: to recruit workers for the organization.
The film is about a boy whose mother was reached by their ministry. It speaks directly to the children of parents who have passed through the entry process, and attempts to hook them in too.
The video depicts Marcus going through a type of tug-of-war between his mother, who wants to indoctrinate him, and his father, who wants him to have a career. The interactions between the father and son are predictable. The unrealistic script shows neither understanding nor empathy for the painful position one is thrust into when their loved one is captured by undue influence.
For instance, such a person will start noticing changes in their loved one’s behavior. Information or ideas that they previously wouldn’t have been opposed to are suddenly dismissed, marginalized and even avoided altogether. Irrational fears develop due to phobia indoctrination, and their very thinking noticeably alters as they put on the “new personality.”
It can be a terrifying experience for someone whose loved one is subjected to subtle mental coercion. Steve Wells, creator of the useful tool the Skeptics Annotated Bible recently did a superb interview on JW Podcast. In it he recounted his experience with his son when he noticed that he was being drawn into a cult (interview begins at 00:06:08)…
In the JW Broadcasting propaganda film the father’s anxiety is eventually pacified when his son explains how the religion helped keep him out of trouble with drugs and girls. Again, the script is written by JWs who seem completely out of touch with unbelievers like Steve Wells, who have been forced into situations similar to that of the father in the video.
Though unsurprisingly not depicted in the film, Watchtower does know of the troubles that result from their conversion of someone who has a family. For example, apart from giving harmful and wholly inappropriate advice on how to counter domestic violence, the infamous “Selma and Steve” February 15th 2012 study edition of The Watchtower admitted that “unbelieving spouses may feel abandoned or threatened when their mate leaves to participate in Christian activities.”
When someone you love is subjected to mental coercion before your very eyes, there is understandable anxiety. Very little of this, however, is portrayed by the father character in the film. Realistically, a father would be extremely uncomfortable with the idea that his wife and son were joining a religion he didn’t believe in – especially one that practices shunning and coerces members to forgo higher education and a career in favor of becoming volunteer canvassers.
Young people are a resource for Watchtower
Young people are a resource for Watchtower
The father in the story is a threat to Watchtower’s goal of acquiring his son’s life as a resource for its purposes.
The film shows a “bethelite” visiting the congregation from headquarters. The bethelite spends time with Marcus and fills the older brother/father-type role. His influence ends up being a strong factor in Marcus’ decision to abandon his father’s aspirations in favor of pursuing his life as a Witness.
This is very bad news that Marcus must break to his father. Again, the father character shows only signs of mild anxiety, even though a stranger from New York is tugging his son away from a real life towards a multi-million dollar doomsday cult.
Propaganda is never realistic.
While the short film is a heavily sanitized version of real events that often take place, it still clearly shows the Watchtower’s “divide and conquer” strategy in accumulating life-long volunteers.
Isolation from support
As you can clearly see from Watchtower’s own writings and productions, their goal is to enter family environments and convert the family entirely or draw certain individuals away for themselves. That’s why they shamelessly refer to the “sword” mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 10:34 in excusing the way relationships are dashed to pieces. This devastation is partly accomplished by isolating converts from unbelieving friends and family, or any who are opposed to their loved one being subjected to undue influence.
Most who grow up outside of the Watchtower environment will have naturally built up a support network of friends and family. Anyone who can genuinely support the recent convert will be targeted as a threat to the indoctrination process. Without isolation from that key support network there is a much less likelihood of indoctrination taking root.
Not so harmless
So, when you see Jehovah’s Witnesses, whether in some public place or at your doorstep, don’t be fooled by their innocent appearance. Keep in mind that, while individual Witnesses are usually very kind and generous people, they represent a callous religious institution bent on destroying your relationships with anyone who doesn’t embrace their doomsday predictions.
The Witnesses you interact with might actually be the friendliest people you have ever met. But please remember that the Watchtower corporation most certainly is not your friend. It wants you as a resource.
If you or someone you love has been subjected to undue influence there are many resources available for you to peacefully handle the situation. Steven Hassan, a leading cult expert, has written several books on the subject of undue influence, the most recent of which is the 25th Anniversary edition of his most popular book Combating Cult Mind Control.
Please don’t just watch helplessly as a cult works its subtleties on someone you love. Educate yourself on how to intervene without resorting to aggression. If you do so, you will have a good chance of turning the tide in helping someone wake up from corrosive indoctrination, and get on with enjoying life with you in it.
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84 Responses to Divide and conquer: Why Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot be called a “family friendly” faith
Richard E. Kelly says:
June 15, 2015 at 8:27 am
James, you have nailed it. Excellent, well-written post. Keep them coming.
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Frank James says:
June 16, 2015 at 12:34 am
An extremely well written post. What’s more, it is absolutely correct. Once in the ‘organisation’ you are controlled by the ‘Governing Body’ in what to think, read and behave. I would much rather be a Christian in accordance with the ‘Golden Rule’ (Mathew ch7 verse 12) and (Mathew ch 22 v 37-40)
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Susan says:
June 15, 2015 at 8:50 am
Excellent article! All my life, I viewed the “unbelieving spouse” as the bad guy. It’s so refreshing to see the viewpoint from the other side. How would any father feel if he saw his son give up on his studies in school and a career to take up recruiting for a cult? The JW organization falsely claims to love you, but their true colors show should you ever disagree with them on a doctrinal matter that makes no sense (e.g. the overlapping generation of 1914), or get old and are no good to them anymore. A boy’s father loves him unconditionally – again unlike the JW organization who quickly casts off family members who do not wish to join the organization.
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Kat says:
June 15, 2015 at 8:54 am
Excellent work, divide and conquer, communism.
divide and rule (or conquer)
phrase of divide
1.
the policy of maintaining control over one’s subordinates or opponents by encouraging dissent between them, thereby preventing them from uniting in opposition.
“the politics of divide and rule in society”
Divide and Rule
The concept refers to a strategy that breaks up existing power structures and prevents smaller power groups from linking up.
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alanv says:
June 15, 2015 at 9:02 am
My 37 year old son is a JW and the only time he contacts me is if he needs something. He never ever phones, texts or calls to just see how I am.
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
June 15, 2015 at 9:20 am
“The father in the story is a threat to Watchtower’s goal of acquiring his son’s life as a resource for its purposes.”! I tend to think that is the very reason why the Watchtower fear more what they call “apostates” than “states”! We know all Watchtower’s intentions especially when it comes to understanding the meaning of:
(Matthew 23:27, 28) . . .“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you resemble whitewashed graves, which outwardly indeed appear beautiful but inside are full of dead men’s bones and of every sort of uncleanness. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
These are some of the words that help me to understand today’s Jehovah’s Witnesses.
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JaphetsHonor says:
June 15, 2015 at 11:03 am
Well written article but I’m afraid the author is severly misinformed. He clearly had some bad experiences with some members and is now taking it out on the entire organization.
I am not a JW but I do respect their beliefs and believe them to be the closest thing to the truth. I could be mistaken but so far all I see here is bitterness and resentment.
There are many ex Jehovah’s witnesses that leave the organization and you never hear from them again. It’s clear who the troublemakers are here. There is a fairly large group of Elders that study ex-members and your patterns of thinking. You are so predictable and your anger is right on point. How could this not be the truth when they themselves can predict how you ALL react when you become corrupted?
You couldn’t live up to Jehovah’s standards, instead of praying about it and asking for help, you turned to Satan, who has become your father. Let us not forget that Satan is the father of lies though. Whatever he has offered you, please try to remember that it will not last. Money, sex, fame, these things are nothing compared to the happiness you can find in Jehovah’s organization.
I will pray for all of you, I am no better since I am also not a JW but at least I recognize the truth. Don’t give up, we can all be in paradise soon!
Best wishes.
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JWIntellect says:
June 15, 2015 at 11:32 am
You speak as though you were once one of Jehovah’s Witnesses? Are you disfellowshiped?
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JaphetsHonor says:
June 15, 2015 at 12:23 pm
I have never been a Jehovah’s Witness. I did grow up around people in the truth though. I simply have not committed myself yet. No excuses.
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Maermydion says:
June 15, 2015 at 1:11 pm
my wife was born and raised a JW and when she was upset to learn some things they declared she was calling herself a prophet and seeking to pull a following from their ranks. in one discussion with an elder he proudly declared that if the org told him to declare a green tree as red, he would gladly do so. so much for serving a God of Truth.
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JaphetsHonor says:
June 15, 2015 at 1:52 pm
It is unfortunate that your wife was mislead by an evil slave. Jehovah will make things right if her heart is true to what is right.
Cedars says:
June 15, 2015 at 11:38 am
“I am not a JW but I do respect their beliefs and believe them to be the closest thing to the truth.”
Are JW beliefs true, or not? If they are true, then let’s see some evidence pronto. If they are not true, then Jehovah’s Witnesses break up families needlessly and even kill people through their blood policy.
The ball is well and truly in your court, JaphetsHonor. Let’s see what you’ve got.
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Bret says:
June 15, 2015 at 12:05 pm
To add to your question Cedars..
I can always remember the question in the back of my mind as an Elder, every time a committe matter came up and that is.. “The two witness rule” every matter is established by two or three witnesses according to the Bible. And i used to think “Where are the witnesses to this parousia”?
So they need to also bring forward these witnesses to the parousia and then have a brain scan done to them if they claim to have seen the Christ who is invisible..
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JaphetsHonor says:
June 15, 2015 at 12:21 pm
I could, except Jehovah’s honor comes first. You must understand that accepting challenges from passionate, yet extremely biased people serves no good. That is why Jehovah’s Witnesses are instructed to not engage apostates. You catch them in circular logic and then twist the scriptures to your liking. You quote mine the organization’s literature to find faults while ignoring the fact that it is run by imperfect humans.
At the end of the day, you just could not handle the burden of our heavenly father’s will. I do not think you will be destroyed in Armageddon, in fact, I think out of everyone you are the ones who are the most in need of mercy. Satan has truly blinded you to the truth.
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Maermydion says:
June 15, 2015 at 1:28 pm
“You must understand that accepting challenges from passionate, yet extremely biased people serves no good.”
anybody passionate is rather biased. apparently you figure that you should only discuss people that have not had direct life altering firsthand knowledge of what it’s like?
“You quote mine the organization’s literature to find faults while ignoring the fact that it is run by imperfect humans.”
and yet they have no problem running imperfect humans into the ground, little kids as well as the adults, to protect the image of the business.
“Satan has truly blinded you to the truth.”
or is it you that satan has blinded? you seem unwilling to look at that which you so strongly support.
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Cedars says:
June 15, 2015 at 2:16 pm
“You quote mine the organization’s literature to find faults while ignoring the fact that it is run by imperfect humans.”
I don’t have to quote mine Watchtower publications to find nonsense. Once you wake up from cult indoctrination and go back to reading or viewing Watchtower propaganda it’s hard not to notice it.
And this “imperfect men” retort is the most lazy argument an apologist can regurgitate. If the Governing Body really are simply imperfect men then it’s high time they started acting accordingly by not insisting that any who disagree with them are worthy of either shunning or death by being eaten by birds.
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Charles Turner says:
June 15, 2015 at 3:30 pm
You couldn’t sound more like the fundamentalist Islamic state if you tried, my friend.
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JWIntellect says:
June 16, 2015 at 4:47 pm
I find it quite interesting you admit that the carrying out of the will of the heavenly father, as prescribed by the Watchtower Society, is burdensome. You do understand!
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FutureMan says:
June 17, 2015 at 2:48 am
JaphetsHonor,
You are like a character on Jehovah’s Witness Topix forum that I use to regularly post on, who claims to be in full support of the JW organization and even knows it inside and out as to it’s doctrines and teachings and policies, yet he claims to not be baptized as yet and a study for over six years to boot.
Yet he has not committed himself to being baptized as one who is officially associated with the JW organization?
What goes there, may I ask?
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Dan says:
June 17, 2015 at 11:40 pm
JaphetsHonor,
I am still a JW and i can tell you that everything you read in this post is true, i have been a JW for 15 years now, just think about this, the logic you are using can be used with any other religion, whatever you think of JW, why cant it be applied to any other religion? The pope being an imperfect human for example, JW are generally nice people but many teachings are just wrong and damaging, shunning, blood transfusions, higher education. Really think about it, I’ve noticed every JW serves a different kind of Jehovah, and that made me realize people do create their own god, their is JW that belive that God (creator of the universe) will punish you for using a beard, i have event met some that disprove of shorts and all kinds of little rules of no importance at all, if you do become one (a JW) well good for you but be ready to make allot of sacrifices, ot for god, it will always be men telling you “this is what gos is trying to say” the word of god but humans always do the talking.
Bret says:
June 15, 2015 at 12:23 pm
You talk like a witness, puffed up, deluded and self righteous… Yet you say you are not?? But you call it the truth and Jehovahs organization! And you recomend it as the best way of life yet you are not a JW? Sounds like you are a witness lying about your identity because your afraid what might happen if your group of Elders who study ex-JW’s, finds you here on this site…
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JaphetsHonor says:
June 15, 2015 at 12:29 pm
I grew up around people in the truth my entire life. I myself have not committed yet though. I do not fee worthy enough. I know, I have to stop making up excuses. Call me hypocrite if you wish, you would be right to do so.
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James Strait says:
June 15, 2015 at 12:58 pm
Hello JaphetsHonor, have you ever thought that maybe you don’t commit because deep down you know their claims cannot be substantiated and their practices are immoral?
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JaphetsHonor says:
June 15, 2015 at 1:06 pm
Part of what you say is true. I guess deep down I do have some doubts but that is to be expected. Those who serve God need faith, without faith our works are dead.
I have not committed because I want to be sure I can fulfill my oath to Jehovah. It is not something I can take lightly. I did not have the advantage of parents who were in the truth. So I was never raised in it, I’m sort of at a disadvantage.
For all of the mistakes ex members like to point to, one thing can be said for sure, JWs are some of the happiest people around. They have purpose, unity, and they are not afraid of death.
Excelsior! says:
June 15, 2015 at 12:36 pm
Are you aware that, according to this “true” religion in the 80s, that we should be in the paradise by now?
That is what I was taught. They did not have their prophecy come true, did they?
But if I had spoken out, and said that I did not believe their interpretation, I would have been disfellowshipped, would I not?
My advice to you is never become a JW!
Do yourself a big favour. Conduct your own research on the “truth” that “Jehovah God’s spirit – directed Organisation” has peddled to you. All the information you need is freely available on the Internet.
Your assumption that all of us “couldn’t live up to Jehovah’s standards” is frankly insulting!
Tell me, does the deliberate covering up of child sexual abuse count as one of “Jehovah’s standards”?
Tell me, does telling a victim of rape that they will be disfellowshipped for not convincing three men that they cried out and fought their attacker count as one of “Jehovah’s standards”?
Tell me, does denying the victim of domestic abuse the right divorce the abusive mate and then to marry a truly loving partner “in the Lord” one of “Jehovah’s standards”?
All of these unchristian policies are followed by the religion that you claim is the “closest thing to the truth”.
I’m afraid to say that it is you who is “severely misinformed”.
Please do your research on this cult.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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JaphetsHonor says:
June 15, 2015 at 12:39 pm
All of the things you are referring to have nothing to do with Jehovah and the Bible. Those things come along as a result of man’s imperfection. Yes they are horrible things and are not excusable, but at the end of the day it is the responsibility of the individual.
You can read, so you know what the Bible says and does not say. If you allow yourself to be taken in by false teachers, well, Jehovah can not be blamed.
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Excelsior! says:
June 15, 2015 at 1:21 pm
With respect, they have EVERYTHING to do with Jehovah and the bible!
God is a God of Love and Truth.
If people claiming to be his sole representatives act unlovingly and are not truthful then their claim to be representing God is untenable.
Yes, the individual carrying out the sin is primarily culpable, but anyone who covers up the sin is also culpable, do you not agree?
The decision to disfellowship a lady for not convincing a group of three men that she fought and cried out when she was raped has NOTHING to do with the evil person who raped her. It is a decision taken by the elders, who are in turn told what to do by “Jehovah God’s spirit – directed Organisation”!
So I ask again for a proper reply to my questions, please.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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JaphetsHonor says:
June 15, 2015 at 1:50 pm
David and Solomon were the representatives of Israel to God. When David had Bathseba’s husband killed he did not do this alone. He had an entire Kingdom (organization) to carry out his orders. Yet in the end David is the one who carried the guilt.
It is the same today. If someone in the leadership has become mislead, Jehovah will reveal it in good time. In the meantime we must be vigilant and study our Bibles. I hope that answers your question.
John Baptist says:
June 15, 2015 at 8:31 pm
No the author is not misinformed. You talk about them as they are the “truth”. Somehow I don’t believe your not a JW because if you were in reality instead of being in a illusion you would then See that they are a Cult and wouldn’t agree with their methods of operation. So why would you defend something your not a part of? Wouldn’t you want to be one since you feel they are the closest thing to the truth. They either are or not. Perhaps you should study all their failed prophecy predictions from their beginning from their own published material with a open mind and you will see how quickly faliable they are. You can talk in generalities but when you get down to really researching this 130 yr old cult you will then see the True reality of it all.
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Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
June 16, 2015 at 12:00 pm
Is Satan the father of cognitive troubles, too? You need to visit a psychiatrist!
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Wendy says:
June 16, 2015 at 12:42 pm
To Japhetshonor:
When I was studying with the JW’s my family was adamantly opposed, my mother in particular. She used to go through my room when I wasn’t home and throw away any WT literature she would find. Nonetheless, I persevered, got baptized, and attended KH meetings for 10 years. At that point, when I became disillusioned, I moved away to pursue a career in sales. Fast forward two years later, my mother has died from cancer, and after her memorial service a witness from my old congregation stopped by the house with a casserole and a WT tract about the resurrection. I told the woman that my mother was not a witness and had rejected “the truth” and therefore would not be part of the resurrection. Her answer to me was that “Nobody knows who will or won’t be resurrected, only Jehovah can read hearts.” My question to you, since you seem to be so closely connected, is what is being taught as truth; that those who do not accept the JW message will be destroyed as they are swine and we should not throw our pearls before them, or that since we can not read hearts we have no business making those kinds of statements about non witnesses?
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DAC says:
June 17, 2015 at 3:28 pm
@Japhatshonor.
You mind is a beautiful thing. It is a defenseless sponge ready to suck up with great acceptance anything it is told.
So by all means read your bible, join a cult and then go right ahead and drink the cool aid. Drink lots and lots of cool aid.
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NoJesus4Me says:
June 18, 2015 at 10:21 pm
While I will acknowledge a person’s beliefs, I do not respects beliefs that justify harming someone whether physical or psychological
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Bret says:
June 15, 2015 at 12:00 pm
Nice article.. Just one quick question though!
John Ekrann? Is he now a GB member?
I have not heard this but perhaps he is..
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Simon Kestral says:
June 15, 2015 at 12:02 pm
@Japhets
Your remarks are inconsistent, even self contradictory. I won’t belabor them all, but a large group of elders studying so called apostate thinking? Funny that you could have such inside information when you’re not even a JW yourself.
WT is the apostate. Twisting Jesus words and deceiving people with false prophecy and lies, is a serious sin.
It doesn’t matter if some of their teaching is true. That does not excuse their sin. If I planned to marry a woman and she told me she could be faithful 90% of the time, I would say sorry sweetie, 90% is not good enough. Goodbye and good riddance!
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JaphetsHonor says:
June 15, 2015 at 12:33 pm
You misunderstand the application and humility that goes into truly understanding Scripture. How many times did David falter? King Solomon, the wisest and one of the few men Jehovah has ever blessed. Didn’t all of these men falter? Why would you expect less of the organization today?
The truth never changes, that is why it was written down in the Bible.
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Excelsior! says:
June 15, 2015 at 12:46 pm
Yes, these men faltered. But their sins were exposed and dealt with by God.
Why won’t the governing body provide the “superior authorities” (Romans 13) with the list of known paedophiles that they possess, despite the Courts demanding it?
David’s sin was exposed and dealt with by God.
When are the society going to allow the superior authorities to deal with the gross crime of child abuse?
The superior authorities are placed there by God. We are all obliged to follow their rules, unless it breaks God’s law.
Can you point me to a verse in the bible where we are commanded to keep serious crimes hidden from the police and courts?
This is not “faltering”. This is a deliberate policy to attempt to keep the reputation of the JWs as holier people than everybody else.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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JaphetsHonor says:
June 15, 2015 at 1:46 pm
The keyword here you seem to be ignoring is that their sins were exposed and dealt with by GOD. It is not up to Satan’s system of things to render judgment. Jehovah will set all things right and cast judgments.
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Grace says:
June 15, 2015 at 3:34 pm
@JehapetsHonor,
Can you please put my name on your “not interested” or “do not call” witnessing card.
Thank you & have a nice day.
Gemma says:
June 15, 2015 at 4:31 pm
If that is the case then what you’re suggesting is that God will dismantle and punish all those that have been running the organization during these crimes.
Why would God not just abandon the Witnesses as his chosen people? According to the Bible he’s done it before when he’s been unhappy with his “chosen people”. What makes you think he hasn’t already moved away from them? If God was still with the Witnesses, why would he allow child abuse scandals to taint the name of his supposed organization? You speak of a very incompetent God if that’s the case.
Excelsior! says:
June 17, 2015 at 4:46 am
Sir,
You fail to see my point, so I will try again. I am sorry that I have not made this clear for you.
The examples you gave were from the pre Christian Era, when God had his own nation.
The courts (held in public outside the city gate) were united with the worship centred around the tabernacle or temple.
In the Christian Era, there is no one nation chosen by God.
Paul tells us plainly that we are to be in subjection to the superior authorities, that have been placed there BY GOD.
So when a crime, such as child sexual abuse, rape, murder etc should be reported to the superior authorities.
The superior authorities are God’s arrangement for dealing with crimes.
Sir, do you agree that child abuse is a crime?
If so, why do the WTBTS not report these crimes to the superior authorities?
I hope that this clarifies the point I was trying to make.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
June 16, 2015 at 12:09 pm
So, all religions are true as humans are imperfect… But You seem to forget That David paid the price of his imperfections, his wives weee raped by Jéhovah himself (Read 2 Sam 12:11-12)!
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Dan says:
June 17, 2015 at 11:56 pm
To JaphetsHonor
All i can say is the same thing, why cant this apply to any other religion? “imperfect humans” argument. And you speak of david and Salomon, they did sin and the whole Israel suffered because of that, now days Jews arent considered to be Gods people anymore, what does that tell you about the governing body, dont let other people tell you what they think god is trying to tell you. Ive seen this firsthand in my family, their is only blind obedience, but go ahead, become a JW and try to disagree with anything, no matter how small, and you will be in a whole lot of trouble, you WILL realize that the love they preach is only conditional, dont disregard everything everyone here is telling yo, think about it, really think about it, John said, bring the evidence, you can find happy and loving people in ANY religion, try to look at a bigger picture any time you think about all of this. I wish you well
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Ted says:
June 15, 2015 at 12:40 pm
I strongly dislike the expression “Divided Household”, used
frequently by JWs. It’s usually applied where one married
partner is in the religion, but the other is not.
It implies disunity, a lack of love and understanding, of pulling
in opposite directions. I’m convinced it contributes in an
insidious way to bringing about these conditions, where they
didn’t exist before.
I’ve known several people in my former cong, who previously
were content with their partner, but became dissatisfied with
them. Some even wishing for a divorce from the “Unbeliever”
Cult jargon is designed to have an unsettling effect on the mind
and make us compliant.
When I left the religion, some elders urged my wife to leave me.
They claimed I would “Shipwreck her Faith” my wife reminded
them that she had taken Marriage Vows. We’ve had many happy
years together, outside that org. But it could have been our
marriage that ended up on the rocks.
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Simon Kestral says:
June 15, 2015 at 12:45 pm
@Japhets
Your replies reveal an emotional attachment to “people in the truth.” You’re more interested in defending them than learning the difference between truth vs. falsehood.
You’re not even a JW yet, but you’re already indoctrinated. That family peer pressure is strong stuff.
Calling WT “the truth” does not make it so. If “the truth” is not true, then it’s not really “the truth” after all.
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JaphetsHonor says:
June 15, 2015 at 1:09 pm
The Bible based teachings are the Truth. Organizational policies are organic and ever changing. There is a difference.
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Excelsior! says:
June 15, 2015 at 1:25 pm
Indeed, so why are people disfellowshipped for breaking the “ever changing” rules of the Watchtower?
Further, why are there so many changes if they are “spirit directed”?
Does God revel in not providing his children with accurate knowledge? By no means!
So why are they constantly changing their minds?
Please, please do your own independent research!
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
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JaphetsHonor says:
June 15, 2015 at 1:44 pm
People are disfellowshipped for breaking the Bible’s moral code. I’ve noticed that many of you have a problem with this particular rule. I can see how Satan would use your pride to question such an arrangement, dangerous times we live in.
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Excelsior! says:
June 17, 2015 at 4:51 am
Sir,
You have no facts to back up your assumptions, do you?
I did not break “the bible’s moral code”.
And yet so many in “good standing” have broken and continue to break the bible’s moral code by abusing children!
Please, do not assume to know why we have left the WTBTS.
I hope that the discussion you have had with us has helped you to understand why we are so concerned for children and women in the WTBTS.
Peace be with you, Excelsior!
anonymous says:
June 15, 2015 at 2:05 pm
JaphetsHonor, if you are not a JW, then why when I click on your name, jw.org comes up?
I did not get kicked out of the Org. after 50 years as a baptized Witness. I won’t go to another meeting because the Watchtower lies and disfellowships anybody who proves their unBiblical doctrines wrong and dares to open up their mouths to tell about it. That is why I won’t support it anymore. It has nothing to do with not being able to live up their high standards.
If anything, the standards that Jehovah’s Witnesses have are the lowest standards any organization could have since they tolerate child abusers and wife abusers and even expect these people to go door to door. The only “standard” that the Watchtower expects of you is for you to fill out a time slip each and every month.
If you get your December 1, 1991 Watchtower bound volume and turn to page 7, it says “A religion that teaches lies cannot be true.”
Now, get your “You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth” book and turn to page 154 paragraph 7 and in the middle of that paragraph it says “Also, the Bible said that all these things would happen upon the generation that was alive in 1914.”
Explain to us how the Watchtower never lies. According to the Watchtower’s own words “a religion that teaches lies cannot be true.” Show us where in the Bible, it says in 1914 that that generation that was alive in 1914 would see Armageddon come. What about that generation? Are they dead? Then the Watchtower lied to us about that too. Even your Reasoning book says that under dates. Face it. They lie so they can’t be the “truth”.
Everything that the Watchtower preaches should be backed up by the Bible but almost nothing in the Watchtower is backed up by the Bible.
When the Watchtower makes a statement, look for words like, evidently, apparently, seemingly, so it seems, obviously. When the Society uses words like that, they are only guessing, which means they aren’t “spirit” directed like they claim by only flying by the seat of their pants.
Also, look for scriptural proof for any statement that doesn’t have scriptural backing. Look for ellipses to see what was left out of that scripture and last of all, read the context and even look up the scriptures in other Bibles. For instance, the New World Translation reads in Judges chapter 11, verse 40 that from year to year the daughters of Israel would go to give commendation to the daughter of Jephthah but in the King James published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society that the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah. The Society deliberately lied about what really happened to Jephthah’s daughter. She was made a burnt sacrifice to Jehovah and Jehovah accepted it.
That is the God you worship.
Reply
BABY says:
June 17, 2015 at 6:51 am
The truth that comes from God does not happen in one day. But gradually. Therefore adjustments are made gradually too. That’s proof that the governing body is guided by gos’s spirit. Otherwise do you réally think that you coul know everything about God after reading the Bible for the first time? The ajustment are needed after many reading, after God illuminated his people
Reply
JWIntellect says:
June 17, 2015 at 4:18 pm
Are you one of Jehovah’s Witnesses as well?
Simon Kestral says:
June 15, 2015 at 1:57 pm
@Japhets
What you’re really saying about the WT is:
“We teach the Bible, but we’re hypocrites and don’t know what we’re talking about, that’s why our organization makes so many errors. Please excuse our mess.”
People who buy into that, want an idol to worship. That’s what the WT organization is, an idol. Just like Aaron’s golden calf.
Sacrifice to an idol, is sacrifice in vain.
If you want to follow Jesus, you must do it yourself, in person. Taking the lazy way out, expecting an organization to do it for you, is nothing more than the blind leading the blind. And we know where the Bible says they end up.
Reply
D. Charles Pyle says:
June 15, 2015 at 2:41 pm
I am not surprised by any of this. They have no hope for the continuation of the family unit after death and the resurrection. No one will be married after the resurrection and the family unit ceases to exist. At least that is what I read in a couple of their books in recent decades. They always show pictures of families together smiling in paradise earth but the family unit ceases at death according to what they actually have taught in their publications. It is no wonder to me, therefore, that it is so easy to divide families in such an organization.
Reply
Simon Kestral says:
June 15, 2015 at 2:57 pm
@D. Charles
As you say, those happy “pictures of families together smiling in paradise” are misleading and deceptive; they don’t match WT teaching. It’s a prime example of WT two faced hypocrisy.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean.”
Said Jesus at Matthew 23:27 (NIV).
Reply
Ken says:
June 15, 2015 at 7:22 pm
Growing up a JW for me was extremely difficult , but the Watchtower has changed since I have been there . It looks and sounds to me more “cultish” than it was when my parents joined ( 1973-1984) . As far as this article it is on the ball . Growing up I had anti social behavior, why did I act the way I did in my youth ? The cult stigma was why I was in school acted like a outcast with no friends because I was not allowed friendship with the world . Growing up in this sect haunts me this day .
Reply
It'sJustMe says:
June 16, 2015 at 3:36 am
JaphetHonor said : “People are disfellowshipped for breaking the Bible’s moral code…..”
What about those who are excommunicated as a result of their decision not to be part anymore of the JWs’ organization for conscience reasons and due to their awareness of the repeated manipulation they have suffered during decades sometimes, or at times to put an end to the repeated injustices they may have suffered from so-called sheperds. How do you know that every excommunicated JW is breaking the Bible’s moral code ? Are you as God living high in the heavens to see through the walls ?
Reply
Rosie says:
June 16, 2015 at 5:17 am
James, Thank you for this very valid article.
When I see them standing in the town or outside the station beside the JW Org cart – oh so innocuously, I feel like shouting to anyone contemplating stopping “Stay away from these people! They represent an Organisation that can wreck your life”.
Years ago there was a lovely lady who was an on / off Bible Study. I remember several sisters and an Elder discussing her one evening after the Tuesday night Group and why they should now class her as a time waster.
“She just can’t bring herself to give up her mother, sister and friends, in order to commit to Jehovah!” they said sadly.
Several years later some of the sisters who were part of that conversation realised TTATT and one of them met the former Bible Study. When she told the lady that the Org was indeed a Cult and NOT “the Truth”, the poor lady was almost in tears. For years she had lived under a terrible guilt that she couldn’t bring herself to turn her back upon people she loved in order to become a JW, and she felt that because of this she must be a terrible person, unworthy of surviving Armageddon. So even though she wasn’t a baptised JW, the Org had still detrimentally affected this poor lady’s life and mental well-being.
When I look back after being free of this Org for many years, I am incredulous at the gall they have to expect people to cut ties with their nearest and dearest, who show them unconditional love, unlike the congregation, whose love bombing wears off once the unsuspecting Bible Study is baptised.
Reply
StrongHaiku says:
June 16, 2015 at 7:56 am
@JehapetsHonor,
I am a bit confused by your posts. Are you trying to convince yourself or the people on the site that JWs have “the Truth”, etc.?
I’ll make it easy for you. I would like to challenge you with a question I have asked many JWs. You don’t have to answer it to me at all. Just let it roll around in your head. This is a simple “Yes” or “No” question.
“If Jehovah (directly or through his Organization) ordered you to kill another person, or kill yourself, or let yourself or another person die, would you do it?”
If you answered…
1. “Yes” – This answer shows that you are a true example of “Listen, Obey, be Blessed” and are committed to serve Jehovah and the Organization. This, I would posit, is the ONLY correct answer if you are to remain a JW in good standing. This is also the same response required of adherents of many other religions who base their beliefs on “faith”. That fact should really frighten you.
If you answered…
2. “No” – This answer would likely qualify you as an apostate. However, I and many others on this site who answered likewise will not shun you.
However, if you answered with…
3. “It is a silly question…Jehovah and/or his organization would never ask me to do such a thing…” or something to the like. I would point out that Jehovah and his Organization have asked that of people in the past and present and that “Yes” was the response of countless faithful servants in the Bible (e.g. Abraham) and today (e.g. Blood Issue). If you are still stuck in equivocations and scripted answers, then you are not ready to commit. This may mean that you are having a struggle between what you’ve been taught to believe and your humanity. In which case, there is hope for you yet and you might want to do a bit more research and critical thinking.
Reply
GEM says:
June 16, 2015 at 11:17 am
@JaphetsHonor particularly:
Have you ever read the Transcript of the DOUGLAS WALSH trial? The WT maintains that you preach a “Truth”, even though you personally have doubts about it.
When you spend Hundreds of hours in “Field Service” convincing yourself and others of something you are not entirely convinced of Yourself.. and, then your doubts are confirmed by “New Light”…it is very difficult to trust that source of “Light” ever again! Especially, when man made doctrine leads to death dealing consequences.
Do you have a comment to make on the content of the trial?
Reply
Hakizimana Jean de Dieu says:
June 16, 2015 at 12:27 pm
@GEM, Japhet is still a “goat” being transformed by the Watchtower in “another sheep”! Leave him/her alone until he becomes a sheep and feel the power of Elders who hide behind letters and secret books from New York!
Reply
steve says:
June 16, 2015 at 4:14 pm
I was raised a jw by my controlling mother, while my father was not one. In reality if that young man had a chance to have a choice, he would of favored his father’s side. I always wonder why my Pop never stood up to my mom as he could see I hated every minute of it. Stupid made-up scenario.
Reply
just asking says:
June 17, 2015 at 1:58 am
Our new friend Japhets, who according to him is not a Jw, but in “truth” by being around people in “truth” but still armed with high classified information only elders can know, (which I find very strange because I grew up in this thing & was baptised at 13 but am not aware of elders studying apostate behavior), is convincing us how the GB can grossly be mistaken but still present the gross mistakes as ultimate truth from the holy spirit, and that is still “truth”. My question is, which is the “truth” to be followed, is it as dispensed from the GB that grossly makes mistakes?
I remember once, a zonal overseer visited our country and drew us a chart showing the flow of spiritual food(truth), from Jah-Jesus-holy spirit- bible- F&DS – us. So in this chart, where does the truth get distorted?
If it gets distorted by the implementers, why don’t they accept their mistakes like David & Solomon & others in the bible? instead blaming Jehovah for having misled them with some old light? So who fools who? Is it Jehovah fooling the GB or the GB fooling Jehovah? Or does the GB create some untruth & Jehovah refutes it & then provide his truth but through the same channel?
Reply
Wendy says:
June 17, 2015 at 5:18 pm
Very good point, justasking
Reply
FutureMan says:
June 17, 2015 at 3:18 am
Talking about a divided family, I was in the shopping mall a couple of weeks ago when a relative (my brother who is an active JW) whom I had not seen for over seven years came walking towards me and I was so surprised to see him there that I exclaimed “what are you doing here?”.
I am almost certain that if I did not say something to him he would have walked right on past me without saying a word as I am sure that he did initially recognize me .
All he could manage to say was “Here he is, I have got to keep ongoing” and that was that as he kept on going without even breaking his stride.
That was the first time I had set my eyes on him in over 7 years.
Talk about a “sword”, creating a division in my family.
The same also goes for my own mother as I have not set eyes on her for over seven years as well (though I have spoken to her briefly over the phone, six months ago) , since I was baptized on a bogus charge for not (accepting the “faithful slave” being appointed over all of Christ’s belongings back in 1919, after apparently being inspected by Jesus as to worthiness and faithfulness).
Reply
FutureMan says:
June 17, 2015 at 3:25 am
And JaphetsHonor, you want to talk about the “truth”?
There’s the truth for you.
The hypocrisy of the “JW organization” that stinks to high heaven, all the way up to our “Heavenly Father” who must be looking on all this with utter disappointment and disapproval of those who claim to represent him and his “love”. “For God is love”.
Reply
FutureMan says:
June 17, 2015 at 3:30 am
On my second last comment here I meant to say the word “disfellowshiped” and not “baptized”.
Reply
BABY says:
June 17, 2015 at 6:54 am
Parents have the responsibility to teach their children to do God’s will.
Reply
StrongHaiku says:
June 17, 2015 at 12:20 pm
I would respectfully disagree with your statement and I think, if you are honest with yourself, you may also. You probably only agree with your own statement if it applies to your preferred religion and God. Substitute that for some other religion and God and I don’t think you would agree with what you said. What if the parents are Muslim? Jewish? Fundamentalist Evangelicals? Does your statement still hold?
We have about 7 billion people on the earth many of which think there is a God, know God’s will, are in the true religion, etc. with the same conviction as you (maybe even more). If this doesn’t scare you, I don’t know what to say.
I think a parent’s responsibility should be to teach their children critical thinking so they can make good decision on what to believe based on good reason and not to pass on non-sense to the next generation. Wouldn’t you agree?
Reply
JWIntellect says:
June 17, 2015 at 4:27 pm
Wonderfully said!
Reply
JWIntellect says:
June 17, 2015 at 4:25 pm
Says who?
Reply
FutureMan says:
June 17, 2015 at 11:55 pm
Baby,
And pray tell, what do “you” consider to be “God’s” will?
Reply
jay says:
June 17, 2015 at 7:55 am
after many years in the “truth” and getting out. I’m in my early twenties my family has left. And with all this communication skills that we develop when we where all witnesses at one point, i wonder what would be a good career to pursue with all this experience?? Anybody have any suggestions??
Reply
Jay says:
June 17, 2015 at 8:01 am
@cedars
Reply
Wanderer says:
June 17, 2015 at 1:21 pm
@Jay I know several ex-witnesses who have made careers in sales and have done very well.
Reply
Ted says:
June 17, 2015 at 2:59 pm
@Baby
“Parents have the responsibility to teach their children to do God’s will.
———
Hi Baby. I think you’re putting the cart before the horse. The first thing
that needs to be done, before teaching anyone about God’s will, is to
provide them with “Verifiable Proof” that an invisible, omniscient,
all loving God really exists. Good luck with that!
If there is such a God that knows everything, past, present, and
future, then our choice whether to respond to his will, or not.
is irrelevant as everything is already pre determined. The potter
makes some vessels for honourable use and some for a
dishonourable purpose . Free will is ruled out. Ro, 9: 16-21
Teaching children the undiluted truth about Gods will and his
character is especially difficult, as some of his dealings with
people spoken of in the the Bible, are so disturbing that it
could cause distress to children. Not to mention his future
plan to kill millions of children at Armageddon.
If one follows the WT method of teaching, the children will
be burdened with guilt and fear. If I had the chance again
to instruct my children, I would teach them critical thinking
skills, ( as suggested by Strong Haiku ). Plus the “Golden
Rule” Matt,7:12.
Reply
Grace says:
June 17, 2015 at 3:05 pm
@ Jay,
I used to say sarcastically to my husband that if a JW doesn’t cut it in JW world, they should persue politics cause they have learnt the art of spin & are so good at believing it that it comes across as honest.
Joking aside, I would think that writing down a list of the things that you enjoy doing would be a good start to career seeking.
Reply
JWIntellect says:
June 17, 2015 at 4:34 pm
As did former President Dwight D. Eisenhower.
I’m actually thinking about pursuing a career in politics myself.
Reply
Jay says:
June 17, 2015 at 8:03 pm
Haha I was thinking like social work or something politics sounds interesting anyways good luck to all of you in finding what makes you all happy peace out!
Reply
Sardec says:
June 18, 2015 at 9:57 am
I think ‘Japhets Honor’ is a Bethelite working for the GB. I’m sure the GB keep heavy tabs on this site in particular.
Reply
jakemon75 says:
June 18, 2015 at 2:00 pm
“I think ‘Japhets Honor’ is a Bethelite working for the GB. I’m sure the GB keep heavy tabs on this site in particular.”
It’s part of their research to know the minds of apostates – so they can predict how we will act and print that in a magazine – so that the JW’s who visit the site can say that we are just like they say we are.
I must admit that particular comment was a new one to me but is as equally “odd” as the last JW’s I can remember meeting were.
Reply
JWIntellect says:
June 18, 2015 at 4:27 pm
I wouldn’t be surprised if he/she is…
Reply
Wanderer says:
June 19, 2015 at 5:41 am
The JW Org can come up with any agenda/opinion they want and then back it up with a scripture to prove their point. I am sure someone like Cedars or Anonymous with their impressive bible knowledge could put together a bizarre topic for a talk and fully back it up with scriptures, just like the Org does.
I hope this makes sense to everyone, but when I was in and reading from their publications, even if it didn’t ring true, I would look at the verses from the bible to back up what was in the article and it was like automatic pilot taking over, and I wouldn’t doubt it. I guess what I am trying to say is twisting the bible to suit their belief system is what they seem to do very well.
Reply
Eva says:
June 19, 2015 at 5:51 am
Actually there is such a funny article:
http://www.jwfiles.com/wt_ex_jw_corner/cats.htm
Reply
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← Divide and conquer: Why Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot be called a “family friendly” faith
Landmark victory sees Jehovah’s Witness sex abuse victim receive six-figure sum
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Posted on June 19, 2015
Under fire: The Britain branch office (pictured) says it will "review" the six-figure judgment
Under fire: The Britain branch office (pictured) says it will “review” the judgment
The BBC has today reported on a landmark ruling at London’s High Court that sees a victim of child sex abuse as a result of safeguarding failures by Watchtower become the first person to win a civil suit against the organization in the UK.
Our child abuse correspondent, Karen Morgan, who is herself a JW child abuse victim, reported on this case back in March.
Then it was revealed that, if successful, it could open the floodgates for more claims to be brought against Watchtower in the UK – with the organization already under fire with the Charity Commission over its worsening safeguarding reputation.
AO Advocates, the law firm representing the victim (who is being referred to as “C” to preserve her anonymity) also revealed in March that they had as many as six extra clients waiting in the wings if C’s case proved successful.
Well, now C has been awarded £275,000 in compensation from Watchtower, surely paving the way for more legal proceedings against the embattled organization.
Visit the BBC page reporting this story
As heartening as this news will be to the many campaigners who urgently want to see Watchtower protect children by taking child abuse seriously, it is worth reflecting on the heavy price paid by the victim as a result of her ordeal.
Now in her 20s, C was abused between 1989 and 1994 when she was between the ages of just four and nine. The abuse, including rape, took place in her home, in her attacker’s home, in a shed, and in cars. C was told “she was sinning” and “she would not be saved.” Her ordeal has left her so traumatized that she has already attempted suicide and reportedly told her lawyers she didn’t expect to live beyond 30.
C’s attacker, Paul Stewart, died in 2001, aged 72, shortly before police arrived at his home to arrest him for his abuse of her. He was a ministerial servant when he began abusing C in 1989, but was shortly thereafter removed as a servant after confessing to molesting another girl.
Even so, elder’s let him hold on to many of the privileges he’d held as a servant. Thus Stewart was able to exploit the positions of trust given to him by elders in a congregation in Loughborough to carry out his wicked acts.
Reaction
In delivering his verdict, Mr Justice Globe said he was “satisfied” the organization should be “held responsible” for the abuse.
The organization has responded to the verdict by telling the BBC it will review the judgment. Regular readers of JWsurvey will recall that, as recently as February this year, Governing Body member Stephen Lett slammed concerns over Watchtower’s mishandling of child abuse as “apostate-driven lies and dishonesties.”
C spoke to the BBC before the verdict, saying: “These [abuse victims] aren’t apostates, these are people who have suffered from horrible, horrible crimes and had their lives completely wrecked. They’re not out to destroy the organisation… This is a problem that needs to be dealt with and it needs to be dealt with properly because it is only going to get worse.”
The BBC legal affairs correspondent Clive Coleman has recognized the significance of the verdict: “This is the first civil case for damages for historical sexual abuse in the UK brought against the Jehovah’s Witness organization, and is thought to be the first brought against any non-mainstream religion.”
And Kathleen Hallisey, lawyer at AO Advocates, has remarked: “This should be a wake-up call to the Jehovah’s Witness organisation that they need to implement better child safeguarding policies that are in line with modern day knowledge about child safeguarding and sexual abuse. And I also hope that it’s a wake-up call to members of the organisation that child sexual abuse is a problem within the organisation and it’s something that they need to do something about.”
We can only hope this story and so many others like it will indeed cause individual Witnesses to either urge reform from within the organization, or vote with their feet.
new-cedars-signature3
Further reading…
◾BBC report
◾Guardian report
◾Independent report
◾Leicester Mercury report
◾Loughborough Echo report
◾Friendly Atheist report
◾Full text of official court decision
◾Landmark UK High Court case against Watchtower could make history
◾JWsurvey articles on child abuse
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← Divide and conquer: Why Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot be called a “family friendly” faith
22 Responses to Landmark victory sees Jehovah’s Witness sex abuse victim receive six-figure sum
Thad says:
June 19, 2015 at 8:01 am
Great reporting. At long last…justice for this girl. No more cover-ups WT Organisation.
Reply
sirius says:
June 19, 2015 at 8:17 am
>>>Governing Body member Stephen Lett slammed concerns over Watchtower’s mishandling of child abuse as “apostate-driven lies and dishonesties.”
It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool, than to talk and remove all doubt of it. ~Maurice Switzer, 1906
IMHO
dogstar
Reply
David says:
June 19, 2015 at 8:43 am
Oh yes, they want to review the case!
Poor them, they are always the victims of this evil system of things.
They only want to be the side that shuns, insult, abuse and condemn people. If they are touched with a finger they are victims of people who hates Jehovah.
I hope that society wakes up and realise that behind the nice appearance there is an organisation that ruthlessly abuse people.
They split families to justify their strange ideas and ever changing truths (lies).
I really believe that they hate Jehovah!, Jesus said “Love your enemies” not shun your loved ones. SHAME ON YOU!!!
Reply
Rowland Nelken says:
June 19, 2015 at 8:46 am
I sincerely hope this case changes the outsiders’ perception of JWs as polite and earnest, albeit nerdy evangelists, into something closer to the cruel and ugly reality.
Reply
dontknowwheretogo says:
June 19, 2015 at 9:15 am
Society are appealing the decision…you would think they should just pay it, accept it and move on but you can’t take money from Jehoover thus the Society will fight this ruling.
That in itself should be a wakeup call to still ins!
Reply
Cedars says:
June 19, 2015 at 9:21 am
Hi – where did you get this information from?
Reply
dontknowwheretogo says:
June 19, 2015 at 11:01 am
Hi Lloyd, it mentions the society will appeal in the BBC article…the BBC have updated it with more info.
Reply
dontknowwheretogo says:
June 19, 2015 at 11:02 am
I’ll quote it for you:
“The organisation – which accepted that Stewart, who died before facing justice, sexually abused the claimant – said it was “disappointed” with the decision and would appeal.”
Reply
Cedars says:
June 19, 2015 at 11:20 am
Yes, I see now. Thanks so much for bringing that point out – I completely missed it! :)
Reply
Alison Boniface says:
June 19, 2015 at 9:25 am
With is is such great news. I was at the case supporting the victim and it was blatantly obvious that the org was at fault even tho there lawyer tried to rubbish the witnesses. The org’s own expert witness said that saying sorry isn’t enough, and that child abuse is an illness like being an alcoholic…..they may say sorry they won’t do it again….but without help they will.
I’m so happy that this real problem is being recognised at last.
Reply
Darlene Alexander says:
June 19, 2015 at 9:27 am
Congrats to C for taking on the WT corp – and winning! No child should have to suffer like she did, and I hope she continues to recover surrounded by kindness and love. Ecstatic that another case has revealed JWs for the despicable cult they are.
Reply
apostate shamostate says:
June 19, 2015 at 9:42 am
Thank you C for being brave enough and strong enough to see this through to the end. All my thoughts are with you and it is unbearable what you have had to suffer. You are an absolute star to have come through this and I hope you will be able to see some light and the end of this horrible ordeal.
So much love and thanks.
xx
Reply
Jerry O Connor says:
June 19, 2015 at 10:33 am
Thank you C for being so very brave. You took on the dot org and won. I hope the ordinary rank and file members of watchtower see that this is not “apostate driven lies”. I still fear for the children. This is another seismic event that will rock watchtower. Thanks for the great reporting.
Best wishes to all,
Jerry
Reply
Searcher says:
June 19, 2015 at 11:20 am
This is great news that justice is served in Great Britain against the cruel cult that allowed and hid this type of behavior. However, I hate that this has happened to “C”. That is an awful thing to happen to any child or person. No amount of money can undo the damage that this person did to “C”. If you are reading this, then peace be with you “C”.
Reply
Simon Kestral says:
June 19, 2015 at 11:24 am
WT is like the three wise monkeys: see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. As wikipedia says, they “deal with impropriety by turning a blind eye.”
In a large corporation or bureaucracy, the effects of policy are not always readily apparent. It can take years or even decades to connect failure with bad decisions. And the high level of apostate paranoia at WT will keep them blind for a long time.
They won’t change until the money is all gone.
Reply
Jay says:
June 19, 2015 at 11:27 am
I’m just happy it worked out for her. I just hope this doesn’t add anymore to the Borg’s persecution complex mentality.
Reply
Ted says:
June 19, 2015 at 1:29 pm
Elders need to understand that child abuse is not only sin,
to be dealt with inside the org. First and.foremost it is a
“Crime” and any allegations need to be reported to the
properly constituted authorities. Otherwise they themselves
could be complicit and liable to prosecution.
They need also to recognise that their cong, judicial system
is not the superior arrangement that’s claimed for it, and is
Inadequate to deal with such cases.
The claims of the org, that they constantly warn parents to
be on guard against abusers, are insincere. When they allow
such people to circulate freely among them.
Comments that abusing children is an addiction, a disease,
are no doubt made to try and mitigate it in some way.
In that case then, a disease carrier needs to be quarantined.
Reply
Markw says:
June 19, 2015 at 1:59 pm
I saw this news break on the BBC website at lunchtime. It was on national radio news by 2pm and on the main news at tea time when the majority of people would be home watching and listening. I hope it’s all over the papers as well, so that homeowners can see the headlines and hold it up for witnesses to see when they call on them this weekend.
I’m thinking of copying the articles, laminating them and giving them out to passers-by right next to the W/T magazine stand next to the railway station. I’m sure the public would be more interested in that news than the comics that Witnesses are trying to place!
Reply
Innocent Son says:
June 19, 2015 at 2:28 pm
Well done Markw on. I’d like to see the J.W. Apolgists explain their way out of this…..The Org’s whole system is corrupt and wrong, the Winds of Change are sweeping across this Organisation and their child abuse policies which are deeply flawed, one of many cases that will break this year….
Reply
Grace says:
June 19, 2015 at 5:10 pm
Seriously, they can’t just keep blaming apostates! At some stage they should own up to their mistakes.
Reply
JWIntellect says:
June 19, 2015 at 5:58 pm
Their tactic seems to be to appeal every case that is won against them.
Reply
Wanderer says:
June 19, 2015 at 7:39 pm
Sadly it is awful cases like this that make the JWs beg for money on jw.org and make cartoons aimed at stealing ice cream money off of their children.
Quite ironic that they are asking for JW children’s money to help pay for the multitude of law suits they are losing for not protecting JW children properly.
Reply
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New videos are constantly being uploaded to the John Cedars YouTube channel.
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11 Responses to Videos
KtotheRAD "Konrad" says:
August 25, 2013 at 6:55 pm
With every word they reveal and “impart” far more than they ever intended…
Reply
george says:
August 27, 2013 at 4:45 am
Sorry Cedars, I can only access the first video on my I pad. There are a lot of over sized play icons and they won’t work.
Reply
Luke says:
October 27, 2013 at 5:27 pm
Continue the good work on this site that expose what Watchtower Organization really are — a fanatic end-time driven cult that only serve interests of its leaders. I left this
cult three years ago for good. My only regret is that I had not left the Watchtower Cult earlier! On Easter Sunday this year, I was baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and received into Eastern Orthodox Church, apostolic Church that preserved the Faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
Cedar, you have my blessings of your work on this site that
will yet help millions of JWs to see the truth of so-called ‘Truth’.
Reply
Fred says:
November 2, 2013 at 12:09 pm
Forget taking your numbers from a 1974 yearbook if you question the amount of those killed, interned, etc get the numbers from the Holocaust museum. You forgot to mention the ‘JEWS’ were and its quoted several times in the Watchtower publications as it is related in the bible, “ONCE GOD’S CHOSEN PEOPLE” but they did not remain that because of their actions. Your quotes from WT publications are based on the latter that they fell out of favour in God’s eyes. They therefor were NOT written in an anti-Semitic nature. Many Jews have become JW’s over the years are they lesser beings because they were of Jewish blood?…ABSOLUTELY NOT! All races are equal so this video in my opinion is twisted in its presentation. Not to mention the ridiculous claim of Rutherford’s so called love letter to Adolf Hitler. No blinders on here, I have checked the facts. Sorry but this video paints an untruthful twist of events and statements about the WT as regards the comments on the Nazi’s and Jews.
Reply
Palma says:
February 28, 2014 at 3:48 am
Hi everybody! Hi cedars!
I found this article about a discovery in egypt that brings light to the origin of story of joseph in the bible.
What do you think?
http://www.davidovits.info/the-lost-fresco-and-the-bible-my-new-book-in-french/
Reply
Idris says:
March 27, 2014 at 8:12 am
Thank you for this page, it has been a great help to me, as I seek the truth of the word of God, however I noticed in the video ‘Does the Bible speak of ‘Paradise Earth’ the speaker quotes Luke 21v43 twice, regarding Jesus word on the cross, there should be a correction note as the verse he mentions is in Luke 23 v 43.
Keep up the good work
Reply
Julia Orwell says:
July 17, 2014 at 3:47 am
Been to internationals before and this elaborate souvenir thing is entirely new. The last one I went to in 2009, the last ones they had, had nothing like this so it’s not a matter of you having not noticed it in the past, it’s a matter of it being a new phenomenon.
I theorize that the wt motives for this involve keeping the masses busy and therefore obedient. Jws would volunteer to do this because there are no other legitimate outlets for creative expression. Armageddon being near has nothing to do with it: it’s about keeping the sheeple busy and happy. Making stupid trinkets is also a team building activity as it involves jws working together, thus reinforcing the herd mentality jws have.
Reply
frankie fernandez says:
February 27, 2015 at 4:44 pm
dear friends I was baptized in 1974. Thank God I am no longer a member of the WT. Free at last and oh what a relief it is. A member of my former congregation who I considerd my best friend molested a minor. There was a big argument amognst the elders on the judicial committee. One elder who was a maverick, wanted to notify the police. But, instead they followed the instuctions of the society. They kept this crime against the child, hush hush. So as not to tarnish the name of Jehovah. But in reality it was a coverup to protect the wt’s reputation. Meanwhile this poor child that was raped has to carry the heavy burden of a victim for the rest of thier lives without compensation and without justice. While the abuser has remaind a member in good standing. The congregation he is attending now has not been notified that he is a sexual preditor.
Reply
Kirtley W. Burggraf says:
March 11, 2015 at 11:16 am
Tell me, since governing body members are elected (replacing someone who dies) at what point do do they become “divinely inspired” or “spirit guided”? Were they always thus in the lower ranks or does this just “happen” the moment that they are appointed? What’s Watchtower’s take on this?
Reply
Alone in MD says:
March 31, 2015 at 6:00 pm
Regards your video on the Memorial Service. I am one of those “non believers” married to a baptized witness. I go to just keep the peace but I’ve made it known that I consider this service one of the worst religious ceremonies that I have ever been to. “Anointed What”. Also it was announced at last years meeting that “this may be the last memorial service”. They are at it again. Thanks for the great videos.
Reply
frankie fernandez says:
May 10, 2015 at 9:50 pm
IF CHRIST WAS ENTHRONGED IN 1914, WHY ARE THE WITNESES STILL CELEBRATING THE MEMORIAL? CHRIST SAID THAT AFTER HIS ARRIVAL NO ONE WAS TO CELEBRATE THE MEMORIAL .ALSO HE SAID THAT THE DAY OF HIS PRESENSE, IT WILL BE LIKE LIGHTNING FROM ONE POINT OF THE EARTH TO ANOTHER. LIGHTNING TRAVELS AT THE SPEED OF 3500 MILES PER SECOUND. SO IT WILL TRAVEL AROUND THE GLOBE IN LESS THAN A MINUTE. HE ALSO SAID THAT ALL EYES WILL SEE HIM. NOT LIKE THE WTS THAT SAYS WE ARE IN HIS INVISIBLE PRESENSE.
Reply
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Top Posts & Pages
Landmark victory sees Jehovah's Witness sex abuse victim receive six-figure sum
Landmark victory sees Jehovah's Witness sex abuse victim receive six-figure sum
Divide and conquer: Why Jehovah's Witnesses cannot be called a "family friendly" faith
Divide and conquer: Why Jehovah's Witnesses cannot be called a "family friendly" faith
Landmark UK High Court case against Watchtower could make history
Landmark UK High Court case against Watchtower could make history
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
2015 convention interviewer praises parents who shunned their kid
Links
Links
Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
Brave and inspirational schoolgirl Brie takes internet by storm with viral video
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Is JWsurvey.org an apostate website?
What is the new light on the faithful slave?
Has Watchtower ever lied or withheld informatiion?
Open Offer
Open Offer to all bethelites
Do you work at Brooklyn, Patterson or Wallkill? If so, please click here.
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