Wednesday, April 15, 2015
Ex-JW dicussions on Yuku.com part 2 reposted
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"Without self-confidence we are as babes in the cradle. And how can we generate this imponderable quality, which is yet so invaluable, most quickly? By thinking that other people are inferior to oneself." --Virginia Woolf
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Dealing with the community who doesn't understand.
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status offlineAndriaSyxx
#41 [-]
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Mar 14 15 11:31 PM
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Cangie my love ...... if you want to run around with your undies on your head, go for it babe! Just make sure of the following:
a) they are clean undies
b) you don't get your head stuck in the leg bit
and
c) they are clean undies!!!!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinemchell6789
#42 [-]
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Mar 17 15 2:28 PM
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Definitely clean undies...haha!
status offlineHumbleLove
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Yes, clean undies would be the preference. lol!
Are you currently working with the contractor to get things started with the privacy fence. Have you decided on a color, materials and all of that stuff? Have you been shopping around to see what there is?
Last year I learned how to paint walls and install hardwood floors. I was helping my Aunt to re-model her house. There are so many choices when it comes to anything you would want to around a house. And the funny thing was
I knew there were a LOT of choices....but seriously there was a LOT of choices. Or did you already pick out something that you like?
status offlineCacky
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Last summer my daughter and I were sitting out on my deck when a car with a camera on top drove slowly by. We wondered if it was Google mapping the area. Sure enough, on Google maps, our deck is pictured with my daughter looking towards the car! lol
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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That's hilarious Cathy. We've just had the Google car doing the rounds of our town a couple weeks back. Didn't seem to matter where I went ... that weird little car was not far behind me or in front of me!!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinemchell6789
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HumbleLove wrote:
Yes, clean undies would be the preference. lol!
Are you currently working with the contractor to get things started with the privacy fence. Have you decided on a color, materials and all of that stuff? Have you been shopping around to see what there is?
Last year I learned how to paint walls and install hardwood floors. I was helping my Aunt to re-model her house. There are so many choices when it comes to anything you would want to around a house. And the funny thing was
I knew there were a LOT of choices....but seriously there was a LOT of choices. Or did you already pick out something that you like?
Yes I have been looking at fencing materials online. We want to go with maintenance free so that has been decided. Then we found some fencing panels that have a texture of brick and come in a beige color which I think would look really nice since it's the color of the bricks in the front of the house. I just got back from vacation so my husband talked to the contractor about it and he said he can get fencing that looks like that. So it's in the works now. He's going to come up with a estimate for us now. So excited!
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Cacky wrote:
Last summer my daughter and I were sitting out on my deck when a car with a camera on top drove slowly by. We wondered if it was Google mapping the area. Sure enough, on Google maps, our deck is pictured with my daughter looking towards the car! lol
Haha that's funny!
status offlineHumbleLove
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I am glad to hear the privacy fence is well on its way to becoming a reality. How was your vacation?
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My vacation was great! I went to the Florida Keys with my sister and a friend. Lots of laughs and ridiculous situations and fun times. Went snorkeling and went on a helicopter ride and had some amazing seafood. It was so great to get away and have a good time.
status offlineHumbleLove
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That sounds very good. I did a helicopter ride up a few years back in San Francisco that went over and under the Golden Gate Bridge. I totally loved it. It's always great to get away and have a good time.
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HumbleLove wrote:
That sounds very good. I did a helicopter ride up a few years back in San Francisco that went over and under the Golden Gate Bridge. I totally loved it. It's always great to get away and have a good time.
That would be a beautiful ride.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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I'll have the laughs, the seafood and even the ridiculous situations and fun times ... but you can keep the helicopter ride Chell!!! No thank you! Not getting me up there!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinemchell6789
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AndriaSyxx wrote:
I'll have the laughs, the seafood and even the ridiculous situations and fun times ... but you can keep the helicopter ride Chell!!! No thank you! Not getting me up there!
Haha yeah it's not for everyone. I am a bit of a thrill seeker and love roller coasters too so I loved it. The seafood was so amazing. So fresh and juicy. My favorite dish was the Coconut Curry Lobster at Sunset Grille in Marathon. If you like curry but not everyone does. It's the best thing I have ever eaten. Soooooo goooood!!
status offlineHumbleLove
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I love roller coasters myself. I can no longer handle the rides now that I am older...lol. I do wish I could still ride Tatsu at Six Flags Magic Mountain. I would spread my arms out instead of hanging on so it would be like I was flying. I don't know if you are familair with that ride at all but it is definitely in my top favorite rides. Since, I now can longer handle the more strenuous roller coasters....I mostly visit to Disneyland. It's funny in my twenties the only place I ever wanted to go was Six Flags Magic Mountain and now it seems the only place I want to go to enjoy rides...is Disneyland.
It's good to hear that you had a great meal on your vacation. I always like trying out new restaurants whenever I take a vacation somewhere. And to have the "best thing you ever ate," as part of a vacation experience is a great thing to enjoy.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Nope ... not a rollercoaster girly either. *shudders at the thought*
Love your rose avvie Humbley .... is it one of the roses from your garden?
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineHumbleLove
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Andria...thank you :). Yes, it is one of the roses from my garden. But, from a few years back...lol. I got interested in a thread about
evolution and thought since I was talking about plants, animals and humans evolving...a picture of a rose as an avatar would fit the spirit of talking about evolution.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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It's a lovely rose and I'm glad it's one of yours, even if it was from a while ago!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinemchell6789
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It's a beautiful rose. I just wanted to post this since I mentioned the coconut curry lobster. I found a recipe that tastes almost exactly like the sauce I had in Florida except it's made with chicken. It's super delicious. Coconut curry chicken.
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status offlineHumbleLove
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I can understand your reluctance in answering questions about JW, it probably doesn't easily create friends. Yes, I can imagine the look on their face was priceless. But, that's good of you
to speak up when you do hear an inaccuracy.
status offlineCacky
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I used to have neighbor, back when I was a jw, who used to tell me about the jw she went to school with and how she couldn't wear pants or makeup. I told her that wasn't true, but she never believed me. I didn't think to ask her, what am I wearing now? lol
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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mchell6789 wrote:
Yes thank you I think just ignoring the ex wife is a good idea. Now that my step daughters are grown it's been easier to do that. It was just with my grandson being born suddenly she was in my life again.
And you are certainly right about the sanctimonious types loathing being ignored. I am pretty sure that's why he yelled at me randomly like that. I have not been going to the church and it really irritates him. I did react when he yelled so in the future I'll pretend he doesn't exist. That'll really irritate him since he does think he has a special calling to save as many people as possible. During bible study in the past when I was going to the church he would call people who don't go anymore "delinquents." Hmmm sounds close to disfellowshipped but with an unlawful twist. All religions are the same if you ask me with their snooty attitudes.
It is sad that your grandson's birth has bought your hubby's ex-wife back into your life ..... lucky for you and unlucky for her ... you get to choose if you want to engage with her or not. The 'or not' sounds good to me! smiley: wink
Last person who yelled at me got 'the death stare' as my boys call it ... and I simply turned my back and walked away. No amount of yelling or arguing will be effective if the person they're targeting is no longer playing the game smiley: happy
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Cacky wrote:
I used to have neighbor, back when I was a jw, who used to tell me about the jw she went to school with and how she couldn't wear pants or makeup. I told her that wasn't true, but she never believed me. I didn't think to ask her, what am I wearing now? lol
Perhaps the jdub your neighbour used to go to school with ... had much stricter parents who told her she couldn't wear long pants or make up. One surefire way to keep a young one under control isn't it.
I certainly remember being told at a very young age that good Jehovah's Witness girls should always wear skirts or dresses ... never long pants as that wasn't modest. I also remember being told that wearing makeup was akin to being a street prostitute. I had no idea what a street prostitute was of course smiley: tongue.
Although I was allowed to wear long pants and shorts on weekends and even to school .... I was never allowed to wear long pants/trousers to meetings or assemblies. I thought it was dreadfully unfair that my brothers got to wear long pants but my sister and I didn't. I know we don't get as cold downunder as some of the weather you northerners have to endure ..... but it got a bit breezy going up and down the bleachers of the racetracks and sporting stadiums jdub assemblies are held in!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinepalmel1234
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Perhaps the jdub your neighbour used to go to school with ... had much stricter parents who told her she couldn't wear long pants or make up.
Yep, I wasn't allowed to wear red lipstick or red nail polish.
Doesn't mean other JW didn't wear red lipstick.
I remember someone else telling me that JW's couldn't wear pants. I told her that wasn't true.
Maybe because the only time they see JWs is when they're out in field service or at the meetings.
And they could also be confusing them with Mormons.
I was out with friends recently and somehow we got on the subject of Mormons.
Someone said they don't let women go preaching from door to door and one guy said
"Yes, they do, I see them all the time, giving people the Watchtower and Awake." smiley: laugh
I gently corrected him and told him it was JWs that have the Watchtower and Awake. smiley: happy
Hey Humble - so you're mixed too, huh? Another reason I'm going to therapy is to deal with all the issues I've had to deal
with because I'm mixed. The biggest frustration for me is not knowing what to say when
people ask me questions about my race. Now I have a really good line, thanks to you!
http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/179443/working_mom.html
status offlinemchell6789
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AndriaSyxx wrote:
No amount of yelling or arguing will be effective if the person they're targeting is no longer playing the game smiley: happy
That's true! A privacy fence will help too. I just want to be able to relax in my own yard and do some things out there without being harassed.
status offlineHumbleLove
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Hi mchell : I think you planning a family event at your house outside the holidays is a good idea. I do game days at my house, they are a lot of fun. We usually have Scrabble, Chinese Checkers,
and Monopoly all going at the same time. I definitely think you should make a family event your own. So, it can be your own thing. And yes a privacy fence would also be a good
thing as well.
But, in the meantime if you can't build the fence right away just put on some headphones and enjoy your music while you are relaxing in your yard.
Hi there palmel- I am glad you now have a way to answer the race question. And you can use it to answer any question you don't want to answer. And thank you too for answering my questions. :) I like the way you gently corrected someone who had an inaccuracy. It's important for people to be aware. I would want someone to correct me if I had a fact wrong about something.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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We are ALL of mixed race when you think about it. It's just that some are more obviously 'mixed' than others. I often get mistaken for being English because I actually pronounce my words properly and with the right number of syllables compared to some of my Aussie family members and friends. So when I'm asked 'where do you come from?' ..... I say 'well .... actually ...... I was born in ...... South Perth ....... (lots of pauses for effect) ....... as in South Perth in Western Australia .....' and am usually met with a blank stare, slightly raised eyebrow and a 'ohhh .... I thought you were English!' I think the confusing thing is that I speak English with an Australian accent (or not depending who is listening to me) ... as do most people in English speaking countries.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinemchell6789
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Headphones are a great idea. I can be in my own little world and not hear the yelling if it happens. Will be easier to ignore then.
status offlinepalmel1234
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You're welcome Humble, anytime!
We are ALL of mixed race when you think about it. It's just that some are more obviously 'mixed' than others.
HA! Rhonda you are so right!
Michell, I hope you get that privacy fence up soon, that pastor sounds like a real prick.
Sounds like you dodged a real bullet with that church.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/179443/working_mom.html
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Already have a call in to our contractor for the privacy fence. Contractors can be slow though so I hope to get it up in the spring anyway.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Oh well done Mchell ..................... you'll be able to run around naked with your undies on your head once your new fence is up!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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AndriaSyxx wrote:
Oh well done Mchell ..................... you'll be able to run around naked with your undies on your head once your new fence is up!
That's my plan...lol! smiley: wink
status offlinecangie
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AndriaSyxx wrote:
Oh well done Mchell ..................... you'll be able to run around naked with your undies on your head once your new fence is up!
Rolling Oh, I am not laughing at you Mchell...I just got an image in my head of ME doing that!!!!!!!!!!!OMG!!
status offlinemchell6789
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With my luck that would be about the time Google maps would take a satellite photo of my back yard...hahaha!! smiley: laugh
status offlineHumbleLove
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Hopefully that doesn't happen...lol...
Have you given any more thought to the idea of having your own get together at your house? image
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Well I was thinking after the fence is done we could have a barbeque and do it annually. That way when having my step daughters and their families over the grandkids can run around in the back yard.
status offlineHumbleLove
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An annual barbeque sounds good. In fact it sounds so good that I think I will barbeque something for dinner tonight :).
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I'm going to bbq something tonight now. smiley: rollPretty warm out there early this year.
status offlineHumbleLove
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I think it hit 90 degree weather today. I had the air conditioner full blast in my car on the way to work. I usually park far from the entrace so I can take a leisurely stroll to the entrance. But, today with the hot weather I parked
in the spot right by the door so I could stay in an air conditioned environment. I am just glad that I work in an air conditioned building!
I agree it's getting pretty warm early this year!
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offlinemchell6789
Dealing with the community who doesn't understand.
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I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness but have since moved on for at least 24 years now. I have major family problems with my husbands children and his ex wife for 20 years now because I was raised as JW but am not one anymore. His ex uses my past of being a JW against me and says things like "they don't celebrate birthdays" even though I do now. And she ridiculed me when I made a birthday cake for my step daughter. They use me when they need my help and I baby sat for a year when my step daughter had her first baby. I also threw her a baby shower. I have done so much for them but they cannot seem to get over the fact that I used to be a JW. I celebrate all holidays Christmas and Thanksgiving and buy everyone presents. But when my grandson turned 3 I am excluded from his birthday even though I babysat him every day for the first year of his life. How do you get people to stop treating you like you are still a JW when you are not?!!!
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And also about the title. I have neighbors who glare at me because I used to be a JW. I live right next to a Lutheran church.
status offlineCeili
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Mar 4 15 4:53 AM
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Hello michell,
and welcome!
I am not or ever was a JW. So, from that oppositional standpoint, I can say that I have viewed the JW as an insignificant, annoying and off the rocker organisation (before I joined the forum and have now added 'dangerous' to the list).
If I had an exJW in my family, I would like to hear their story.
Maybe there exists a kind of curiosity that you could 'exploit'?
Take care,
Ceili xx
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Mar 4 15 10:28 AM
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Hi Michell and welcome to the forum,
Based on what you've stated about being ridiculed by the exwife and being excluded from your stepgrandson's
birthday party even though you've babysit for him,
I don't think this is about you being raised a JW, so much as you being the stepmom.
I'm pretty sure they know you celebrate holidays, but are choosing to exclude you from
certain events because they don't consider you "family".
After my divorce I dated a man that had a 7 year old son that was a brat. I went on some online step family forums
to get advice for my situation and I discovered that REAL blended families are nothing like the Brady Bunch.
If the father gets remarried, the children may not accept the new wife, or the ex-wife may try to cause problems
in the new marriage. You'll read of stories where the stepdad posts that he's supporting his wife and her children from a previous
relationship, but that his wife does not make her children mind or pick up after themselves.
I even read of one lady whose husband's ex-wife came over to her house drunk and punched her!
I have a feeling even if you weren't raised a JW, your husband's ex-wife would find something else
about you to ridicule. I encourage you to post on a step family forum such as StepTalk and see what they have to say.
I'd like to help you but in order to do that there are some things I need clarification on.
You say that your neighbors glare at you. If you haven't been a JW for 24 years, how do these people even KNOW
you used to be one? And how do you know they're "glaring" at you because you used to be a JW and not something else?
Maybe they have eye problems? smiley: smile
I also noticed you said that the ex-wife says - "they don't celebrate birthdays"
What does she mean "they"? Did your husband used to not celebrate holidays either?
Was your husband a JW at one time, too? And how do you know that the ex-wife is saying these things about you?
Reason I'm asking is because I'm wondering if you've tried to be friendly with the ex-wife.
The advice I've read on stepfamily forums for stepmoms
is not to get too friendly with the ex-wife because it can cause problems.
Now, there are some ex's that can get along, I currently live with my boyfriend and he and my ex-husband
have been able to maintain a cordial relationship. But that's not always the case and sometimes the best thing to
do is maintain your distance, especially if people are not respecting you!
Which leads me to my next question: What is your husband doing about all of this?
Why isn't he coming to your defense? What did he do when he found out you weren't invited to
his grandson's birthday party? I notice you said this was your step-grandson's 3rd birthday,
was this grandson's first party, or did he have other parties that were you invited to and now something's changed?
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Last Edited By: palmel1234 Mar 4 15 10:38 AM. Edited 3 times.
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Mar 4 15 11:58 AM
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Well the neighbors glaring I did go to the Lutheran church trying it out some so they got to know about my having been a JW in the past. They became obsessed with me and would have other people at the church try to befriend me and call me over and over and it started to freak me out so I stopped going and now those same people glare at me. The reason they became so obsessed is because I used to be a JW. The pastor would brag to other pastors about how he had a ex-JW going to the church and he was so proud of himself. I know this because he told me this. All of my statements are not just assumed things it's because I was told.
When my husbands ex wife said "they don't even believe in that" about birthdays she was talking to my husband on the phone and he told me she said that. And thank you for reminding me after thinking about it it's true she would just find another reason to say something mean about me if it wasn't the birthday thing. It's just so frustrating since I have been helping so much it's just like a slap in the face. When she said "they" I took it to mean the JW's in general. My husband was never a JW. And honestly I've told my husband not to interfere anymore because if he has to tell them to be nice to me then it's just not worth it anymore. My step daughter is in her 20's now.
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Mar 4 15 12:04 PM
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Also to add the pastor yelled at me when I was sitting in the back yard last summer with my husband. So I know it's not just an eye problem. I'll be getting a privacy fence as soon as it thaws here.
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Well the neighbors glaring I did go to the Lutheran church trying it out some so they got to know about my having been a JW in the past. They became obsessed with me and would have other people at the church try to befriend me and call me over and over and it started to freak me out so I stopped going and now those same people glare at me. The reason they became so obsessed is because I used to be a JW. The pastor would brag to other pastors about how he had a ex-JW going to the church and he was so proud of himself.
Oh wow. Yeah, a privacy fence is definitely needed! But think about it, other than a few glares, aren't you glad you aren't dealing with these rude, judgmental people any more? But I have to ask - why can't you just stay inside your home during the times they're leaving the church?
I'm not saying you have to be a prisoner in your own home, but can you just stay inside your home the hour or two
that they're coming and going into the church? Surely they're not outside 24/7?
It's just so frustrating since I have been helping so much it's just like a slap in the face.
You are right it's a slap in the face. The advice I've read on stepfamily forums is to stop doing anything for
these people. It won't be appreciated and you end up feeling used.
When my husbands ex wife said "they don't even believe in that" about birthdays she was talking to my husband on the phone and he told me she said that.
Okay, that doesn't sound that mean to me, maybe more of a misunderstanding. She thinks
since you were raised a JW that you don't celebrate birthdays.
Many people don't understand what it means to be a Witness. They think if your parents were Catholic,
that means you're a Catholic. They don't understand to be a JW is more than just being raised one.
But I have to point out, I feel like your husband is not doing enough to protect you.
When the pastor yelled at you, your husband was right there with you, why didn't he tell the pastor to leave you alone?
And it sounds like he is too involved with his ex-wife. Why is he even on the phone with her discussing you?
Their daughter is grown now, there really isn't any reason that he still needs to talk to his ex-wife.
You said that you've had problems with the ex-wife and your husband's children for 20 years now.
I just get the feeling that your husband does not stand up enough for you.
Both with his ex-wife and children, and with other people.
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Mar 4 15 1:37 PM
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You're absolutely right he does not stand up for me ever. That's also frustrating!
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Yes I am very glad I am not dealing with those rude judgmental people anymore. I do stay inside when I know there is something going on at the church and they will be driving by my house. But at the same time other times I stay out there because I feel it's my property and if they want to be ignorant then that's their problem. Depends on my mood that day. It just gets old after a while them being obsessed with me. It's been 2 years about since I was going there and one woman is still totally obsessed with me and has been waiting for me in the grocery store entryway. So I've had to avoid the grocery store at certain times. She never has groceries either and she used to stand outside and I'd see her looking around for me. So I don't go in the store when I see her standing there waiting. One time when I went to back out she was right behind my vehicle and then just walked away it was really freaky. The most recent time she was waiting inside the entryway so I didn't see her there and I went in and she followed me in even though I tried to ignore her. This one thinks were best friends or something and I haven't returned any of her calls in a couple years. Even changed my phone number avoiding her and others at the church. I'd think it was a coincidence if it wasn't for the fact that she never has groceries and that she just stands there and when I do go in she talks to me and then leaves after. I read one of your other posts about going to a psychologist and I need to work on standing up for myself too. I have been afraid to tell this woman to leave me alone. I can do it over the phone with other people and through email but in person I worry I will look mean in front of other people since it's in public and I also worry about what this woman might do if I openly reject her. You would think she could take a hint when I don't ever call back for years. Anyway that's one of the other things I am dealing with. Thanks for listening.
Last Edited By: mchell6789 Mar 4 15 3:33 PM. Edited 2 times.
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Mar 4 15 5:47 PM
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Hi, mchell6789...welcome to the board. Wow...do you live in a world of meanies! Although you seem to be a kind person, I am glad you realize that you need to stand up for yourself, too. Some of the damage that has been done to us as ex-JW's is that we were not taught to think for ourselves, or defend ourselves---only to defend the organization. And so, because we do not have a sense of our own self apart from an identity as a JW, we don't know the rules of society that others have less trouble navigating. I learned these things by reading self-help books, especially books on becoming more assertive. Although it took me until I became 64 (recently), I am able to stand up for myself quite well without guilt and not feel uncomfortable or embarrassed or worry that I will look mean in public. I don't act in a way that is nasty or unladylike or insane, so the fact that others do not like what I have to say is their problem and I refuse to make it mine. I have simply decided that if one of us is going to be unhappy because I don't meet other people's demands, it will no longer be me!
People use your uncomfortability as a means to control you---they count on your not wanting to make a fuss. So don't...you can simply let people know that something is not acceptable, or it is not possible or convenient to do what they want when it does not suit you. When did it become your job to take care of everyone's circumstances and feelings, anyway? And don't get me wrong...this new attitude of mine does not mean that I have become mean or uncaring. I live in a Senior Citizen apartment building and I find many occasions to help others who are unable to manage daily tasks easily. But I will not allow anyone to talk to me in a way that I find unacceptable, and I have learned the value of setting boundaries very clearly. In fact, as part of good communication with others, we have a responsibility to be clear about our boundaries, as it is unfair to expect people to follow the rules if they don't know what they are! I have learned that I am not responsible for the outcome of other people's feelings, I am only responsible for my own. And you have to figure out what the rules are that you can live by...we never had the right to our "rights" in the organization.
And know that as you change, people will fight the "new you" tooth and nail. After all, the change in you requires that they change the way they deal with you...and you were the one ready to make the changes, not them. So, they will sabotage, kick, scream and challenge your growth every chance they get. You will suddenly be a "selfish b***h". Don't allow yourself to own that...it's their way of manipulating you into relapsing into guilt and your old behavior. You may need to have a heart-to-heart with your husband and ask his help in supporting you in this process---he owes it to you as your partner, and I hope he comes through for you. And as far as the pastor yelling at you, and the lady at the supermarket...call the police and put a stop to that nonsense!!!!! According to the law of the US, the lady can be charged with stalking, and the pastor with harassment. THEY are breaking the law, and you have a right to live your life safe from their crazy behavior.
Now I know that this change does not come easily...we have lived this way all our lives, and it requires changes over time. But I am so proud of myself for getting better at it. Recently someone told me that another person said about me that at least people don't have to guess where I stand about certain things. I do it with grace and dignity...and I have very few regrets about defending myself when necessary. I truly hope you find a way to claim yourself.
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Mar 4 15 7:02 PM
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Dear Abbey once said, "People will take advantage of you every bit as much as you allow them to."
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Mar 4 15 9:31 PM
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cangie wrote:
And know that as you change, people will fight the "new you" tooth and nail. After all, the change in you requires that they change the way they deal with you...and you were the one ready to make the changes, not them. So, they will sabotage, kick, scream and challenge your growth every chance they get. You will suddenly be a "selfish b***h". Don't allow yourself to own that...it's their way of manipulating you into relapsing into guilt and your old behavior. You may need to have a heart-to-heart with your husband and ask his help in supporting you in this process---he owes it to you as your partner, and I hope he comes through for you. And as far as the pastor yelling at you, and the lady at the supermarket...call the police and put a stop to that nonsense!!!!! According to the law of the US, the lady can be charged with stalking, and the pastor with harassment. THEY are breaking the law, and you have a right to live your life safe from their crazy behavior.
I have thought about going to the police and I was keeping evidence of the stalker woman's phone calls every week but then I changed my phone number and wiped my cell phone and ended up losing all of her messages. The only evidence I have would possibly be video footage at the grocery store showing her following me in while I try to ignore her. And it would show her standing in the entryway waiting. I've been reading a lot about stalking and one of the things I always read is when you go to the police is when you are at highest risk for violence. I do not know if this woman is violent but I can tell she's off. She doesn't understand normal social behaviors and doesn't get hints or even directness at times. I also read that you're supposed to tell them to leave you alone and from that point on if they continue then keep record of all of that and go to the police with it. So I have been unsure how to handle it. I'm thinking of purposely going when I know she will be waiting for me and be direct with her and just tell her to stop waiting for me and if she continues then I will definitely get the police involved.
It's really odd because I go to a gym and I can look a 200 lb huge body builder guy in the eyes and stare him down if he is staring at me and keeps looking like he's trying to get my attention and get him to back down and leave me alone but for some reason this situation is totally different. It's the social aspect of it that is most intimidating. I am more afraid of gossip I think is the issue here. These people are my neighborhood and I worry about my reputation. But I should not let that stop me from standing up for myself. I know that is ingrained in me from being raised a JW and also having my reputation ruined because of the JW's is what holds me back in so many ways.
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Mar 4 15 9:35 PM
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Cacky wrote:
Dear Abbey once said, "People will take advantage of you every bit as much as you allow them to."
That's a good one. Another good one is "We teach people how to treat us." I'm a work in progress. I've learned how to stand up for myself in some areas of my life and not so much in others. It's not easy.
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Welcome to the forum mchell,
I am not a JW or ex-JW. I can tell you this if someone I knew was JW 24 years ago it would have no bearing on today. If I am having a party I would invite everyone I wanted to be there,
and I wouldn't invite anyone I didn't want to be there. I think the fact that you used to be JW is just a convenient excuse. I think that it's difficult for husband's ex-wife in general to understand
proper etiquette, because she doesn't want to be a gracious person.
I am sorry that you didn't get invited to your grandson's birthday party. I would talk directly to the stepdaughter. If it were me I would say to her that I would like to be included
in my grandson's life. This means birthdays, Christmases etc etc. Let her know that you want to be included in everything. I wouldn't even bother speaking with the husband's ex-wife on this issue.
As for the crazy lady who won't leave you alone. IF you truly think she is a stalker then yes the police is the way to go, and proceed with caution.
But, if you just think that she is a bit off or just eccentric. I would do something like this:
I would make my grocery list and then head to the grocery store.
If she is there:
I would walk straight up to her and say.
"I am so glad you are here. Would you like to help me with my grocery shopping?"
And then as you are grocery shopping ask a lot of questions.
For example:
"What kind of potato chips should I get? Should I get Ruffles or Lays or the Store Brand? Do they make potato chips out of potatoes? LOL! Should I use dip or chocolate syrup
to go with my potato chips? LOL! Or should I lay off the potato chips? Think I should eat some vegetables instead? What kind of vegetables go well with
chocolate syrup? " LOL!
or if you don't think you want to do ridiculous questions....you can just do a bunch of normal questions. But, I have found that asking people a ton of questions is the best way
to get rid of them. No one seems to like it when you ask a lot of questions....lol!
"I am making steak for dinner tonight....do you think I should make carrots or peas? I was also thinking of mashed potatoes smothered in chocolate syrup....LOL!
Now, that is what I would do. I would ask so many ridiculous questions that in the end she would just want to get away from me. If you do this and for some reason it doesn't work,
and she starts to ask you questions....answer all her questions with "why do you ask?" Don't answer any of her questions....just ask questions.
You have to find the way that works for you.
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Humble, that's some good advice.
answer all her questions with "why do you ask?"
I really, really, really like this line. I'm working on being more assertive as well.
I always have a hard time because I'm mixed and people are always asking me what I am.
I'm going to start using this line!
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Mar 5 15 7:42 AM
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HumbleLove wrote:
Welcome to the forum mchell,
I am not a JW or ex-JW. I can tell you this if someone I knew was JW 24 years ago it would have no bearing on today. If I am having a party I would invite everyone I wanted to be there,
and I wouldn't invite anyone I didn't want to be there. I think the fact that you used to be JW is just a convenient excuse. I think that it's difficult for husband's ex-wife in general to understand
proper etiquette, because she doesn't want to be a gracious person.
I am sorry that you didn't get invited to your grandson's birthday party. I would talk directly to the stepdaughter. If it were me I would say to her that I would like to be included
in my grandson's life. This means birthdays, Christmases etc etc. Let her know that you want to be included in everything. I wouldn't even bother speaking with the husband's ex-wife on this issue.
As for the crazy lady who won't leave you alone. IF you truly think she is a stalker then yes the police is the way to go, and proceed with caution.
But, if you just think that she is a bit off or just eccentric. I would do something like this:
I would make my grocery list and then head to the grocery store.
If she is there:
I would walk straight up to her and say.
"I am so glad you are here. Would you like to help me with my grocery shopping?"
And then as you are grocery shopping ask a lot of questions.
For example:
"What kind of potato chips should I get? Should I get Ruffles or Lays or the Store Brand? Do they make potato chips out of potatoes? LOL! Should I use dip or chocolate syrup
to go with my potato chips? LOL! Or should I lay off the potato chips? Think I should eat some vegetables instead? What kind of vegetables go well with
chocolate syrup? " LOL!
or if you don't think you want to do ridiculous questions....you can just do a bunch of normal questions. But, I have found that asking people a ton of questions is the best way
to get rid of them. No one seems to like it when you ask a lot of questions....lol!
"I am making steak for dinner tonight....do you think I should make carrots or peas? I was also thinking of mashed potatoes smothered in chocolate syrup....LOL!
Now, that is what I would do. I would ask so many ridiculous questions that in the end she would just want to get away from me. If you do this and for some reason it doesn't work,
and she starts to ask you questions....answer all her questions with "why do you ask?" Don't answer any of her questions....just ask questions.
You have to find the way that works for you.
Haha that's good and hilarious! I used to get rid of personal trainers in a similar fashion at the gym who kept pestering me to hire them. I'd go on and on about my physical ailments until their eyes glazed over and I could tell they just wanted to get away from me. They stopped bothering me all together. I'm going to have to remember that one. "Why do you ask?" She does hate questions too. I ask her about her work and she tries to avoid answering me. And says something vague so I ask again and she makes up something I can tell. It's so weird. Haha chocolate syrup another good one to remember and repeat over and over...lol
Last Edited By: mchell6789 Mar 5 15 10:58 AM. Edited 1 times.
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Hi there Mchell and welcome .....
First thing you need to do ... apart from advise the Police about the weird woman who seems to be popping up everywhere ... is to live your life YOUR way and don't give a toss about the idiots around you.
Your husband's ex-wife is a bitch. It's not your former religion she doesn't like ... it's you. She may be one of those women who hasn't yet moved on with her life even though she may come across as having done so. She doesn't want your husband back ... she just doesn't want you around. Too bad so sad for her eh!
Next time she raises the issue about religion or makes some derogatory remark ... don't say a word. Nothing. It will totally piss her off and it'll make her look like a goose because she will get cross ..... and you will still be saying nothing! You know what it's like yourself to be ignored ... and you know how upset kids get when they are ignored ....... treat her like a kid because she's behaving like one! Leave her to her own stupid little comments. You have nothing to be ashamed of with your upbringing and certainly nothing to be ashamed of now.
As for the religious people hassling you next door ... don't let them. If they are upsetting you ... don't show it ... just ignore them too. Some of the sanctimonious types loathe being ignored ... don't forget how important some of them believe themselves to be, so what better way to burst their bubble ... than to totally ignore them. They're lucky it's not me they have to deal with ..... I find people like that to be totally entertaining. Specially when they get themselves all wound up because they're not getting the desired result! Tossers!
You just chill Mchell ..................... stand tall, ignore the tossers (including hubby's ex-wife) and spend as much time as you like in your own yard. You should make sure you're out there all the time and if any of them look your way ..... wave at them and call out a cheery 'lovely day isn't it ....'.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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AndriaSyxx wrote:
Hi there Mchell and welcome .....
First thing you need to do ... apart from advise the Police about the weird woman who seems to be popping up everywhere ... is to live your life YOUR way and don't give a toss about the idiots around you.
Your husband's ex-wife is a bitch. It's not your former religion she doesn't like ... it's you. She may be one of those women who hasn't yet moved on with her life even though she may come across as having done so. She doesn't want your husband back ... she just doesn't want you around. Too bad so sad for her eh!
Next time she raises the issue about religion or makes some derogatory remark ... don't say a word. Nothing. It will totally piss her off and it'll make her look like a goose because she will get cross ..... and you will still be saying nothing! You know what it's like yourself to be ignored ... and you know how upset kids get when they are ignored ....... treat her like a kid because she's behaving like one! Leave her to her own stupid little comments. You have nothing to be ashamed of with your upbringing and certainly nothing to be ashamed of now.
As for the religious people hassling you next door ... don't let them. If they are upsetting you ... don't show it ... just ignore them too. Some of the sanctimonious types loathe being ignored ... don't forget how important some of them believe themselves to be, so what better way to burst their bubble ... than to totally ignore them. They're lucky it's not me they have to deal with ..... I find people like that to be totally entertaining. Specially when they get themselves all wound up because they're not getting the desired result! Tossers!
You just chill Mchell ..................... stand tall, ignore the tossers (including hubby's ex-wife) and spend as much time as you like in your own yard. You should make sure you're out there all the time and if any of them look your way ..... wave at them and call out a cheery 'lovely day isn't it ....'.
Yes thank you I think just ignoring the ex wife is a good idea. Now that my step daughters are grown it's been easier to do that. It was just with my grandson being born suddenly she was in my life again.
And you are certainly right about the sanctimonious types loathing being ignored. I am pretty sure that's why he yelled at me randomly like that. I have not been going to the church and it really irritates him. I did react when he yelled so in the future I'll pretend he doesn't exist. That'll really irritate him since he does think he has a special calling to save as many people as possible. During bible study in the past when I was going to the church he would call people who don't go anymore "delinquents." Hmmm sounds close to disfellowshipped but with an unlawful twist. All religions are the same if you ask me with their snooty attitudes.
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Mar 5 15 11:56 AM
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Hi Palmel, I am mixed too I am often asked, "What are you?" I reply all different kind of crazy ways, it just depends on the situation.
I am glad you like the line "Why do you ask?" It works in so many situations, it's a great all purpose answer to any question you don't want to answer.
Hi Mchell, Yes, I like to turn any bad situation into a funny one. Laughter is the best thing you can do.
I attended a chuch until I was 17 years old. I was raised Protestant. I stopped attending for the very reason that you said. People in church generally have snooty attitudes. They are very good
with the labels.
My entire family is all religious in one form or another. One of my Uncles was a minister in a church and my family was all very proud of that fact. At our family get-togethers all the grown-up's would
be discussing people in their congregations the list of labels was incredible to me. I thought to myself...ok....I thought we were supposed to love everybody and not hate anybody. I was a teenager during the
80's and I was brought up that children were seen and not heard during big adult conversations. Of course there were times when I thought I should say something, but since it was Christmas, Easter or
whatever holiday it was. I didn't want to ruin it by expressing my opinion that I thought the conversation wasn't Christian-like.
I guess one day or perhaps it was a combination of years of hearing people who were calling themselves Christian
do all that labeling that I just decided I didn't want to be around that anymore. I haven't attended a Bible Study or Church service in 17 years. I have decided for myself how and what I believe in.
I was probably labeled Delinquent myself when I stopped attending the church. But, I will say this, no one from the church outside my family sent me an email, or made a phone call or bothered me in any way. My family
didn't understand the reasons for me to stop attending. They still don't understand I am now 47 years old and every now and then they will ask me why I don't attend. I simply ask them , "How is the labeling going? "
They always respond with some form of, "We don't do that." But, they do....lol. I am a happy person, I just wish more of the world was happy with me. I have been blessed over the years with an incredible amount
of good luck. I like this forum though, it's incredible how much love there is in the posts. Genuine support from people who truly understand what you are going through is such a powerful thing!
Also I wasn't afraid in any way to stop attending church. There was no fear of losing anybody from my life just because I decided to stop going. My life didn't change except I no longer had to wake up
early on Sundays. I don't think any religion has the right to instill fear on any level.
Last Edited By: HumbleLove Mar 5 15 11:59 AM. Edited 1 times.
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Hi, Mchell. Welcome to our little corner of the world. It's a shame your hubby's ex is being such a you-know-what, but it sounds as if she's a pain who would find any reason to make you miserable. If you weren't a former JW, she'd find some other reason to make your life hell. Shame on your hubby for not having your back!
I've been out of the JWs for about thirteen years now. For a long time I wouldn't tell anyone I was an ex-JW because I was afraid of what they might say or think. But then I decided I didn't give a rat's behind what they thought. It wasn't my fault my mother decided to convert and raise me as a JW. It's not who or what I am now. So hold your head high and don't let those petty-minded, judgemental people get you down.
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Humblelove, Yes religious people really like to label people that's for sure. I think they get confused and think that making themselves seem more righteous saves them in some way so they put others down when in fact doing this has just the opposite effect and makes the labeler the one in the wrong. That's my take on it anyway.
sg75, I hear ya. For many years I didn't tell anyone either. I don't talk about it at jobs I've had usually unless I get to know someone pretty well. Although I do speak up when people make comments about the JW's that are inaccurate I just can't keep my mouth shut then..ha! One time at work someone said the JW's can't cut their hair. I said yes they can. They said how do you know? I said because I used to be one. The look on their face was priceless. I try not to do that though it really does not create friends.
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Israelites were allowed to eat unbled meat
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offlinemaksutov
Israelites were allowed to eat unbled meat
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Leviticus 17:10-14 says that the blood should not be eaten with the meat, and that it should be poured out on the ground. However, the next verse, Leviticus 17:15 says that an Israelite or an alien resident could eat an animal that was already dead (and it gives the example of an animal killed by a predator). It is impossible to drain the blood of an animal that is found already dead, since the blood coagulates within a short time. Thus, it is not the blood itself that is sacred, but the life of the animal. Pouring out the blood was a way of acknowledging the fact that the person had taken a life - if the animal was not killed by a human, they did not need to (and in fact could not) drain the blood.
The Bible principle is that when a life is taken, blood should be discarded out of respect for the sacredness of life. According to JWs, life can be discarded for the sake of the sacredness of blood. Blood transfusions do not involve the taking of a life, so the principle does not apply. More information: http://ajwrb.org/bible/blood-and-the-mosaic-law
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Life shouldn't be discarded by the sake of the sacredness of blood. The blood should be used to sustain life. I just finished reading the article you posted. I completely agree that if a blood transfusion is going to save your life...then do it! I had listened/read a podcast
on JW.org the other day. Steven Hassan was being interviewed in this particular podcast. Towards the end of the podcast there were some comments made about how a young mother gave up her life in order to serve her beliefs. I think the same incident was shared on
this forum. I felt so sad that child was going to grow up without a mother. It's not the only child either who is going to grow up without a mother because they refused a blood transfusion. There are cases that we will never hear about. The blood doctrine is one of the
many things that I disagree with when it comes to the JW cult/religion/borg. I think life is sacred and that blood is there to help sustain it.
Last Edited By: HumbleLove Apr 4 15 2:39 PM. Edited 1 times.
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I remember seeing my parents cook meat as a child and watching the blood flow out as it heated up in the pot. Of course I thought about how we're not supposed to eat blood yet it's apparently impossible not to eat some blood with the meat! Pouring the blood out was clearly a symbolic ritual because even bleeding the animal does not remove all the blood from the meat.
The Bible principle is that when a life is taken, blood should be discarded out of respect for the sacredness of life. According to JWs, life can be discarded for the sake of the sacredness of blood
I like this way of explaning how ridiculous the policy is. It's truly pharisaic "straining of the gnat and gulping down the camel".
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I read years ago that in modern Judaism the attitude toward the Biblical laws was that, if a life was in danger, the laws could be set aside. For instance, if somone was starving to death they could set aside the ban on eating blood to save their life. If someone needs life-saving surgery on a Sabbath, it okay for a Jewish surgeon to operate; NOT to perform the operation could be seen as an act of murder.
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sg75 wrote:
I read years ago that in modern Judaism the attitude toward the Biblical laws was that, if a life was in danger, the laws could be set aside.
Yes, that is pikuach nefesh. But strictly speaking, it is not even necessary to call on that, as eating unbled meat was not against the Mosaic law unless a person had killed the animal themselves. The laws on blood relate to the taking of life, and blood transfusions do not involve the taking of life.
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We were always told that the blood we saw from meat being cooked in the oven or on the stove or barbie ...... was 'just juice' and 'nothing to worry about'.
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I, too, was told it was just juice, by the woman who studied with me.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Hubby tells me a story of his long time friend, the sister was JW and when giving birth needed a transfusion...she decided to take the blood and both she and the baby would live.
My doctor told me a story of how one of her patients was JW and would rather have died giving birth because she needed blood. In the end it worked out ok but she no longer wanted working with JW's and their blood doctrine.
For any of us that go to the ER...we always must in the USA sign a form that we are not opposed to having such when in need.
As an adult I can understand; as a child that cannot legally make that decision and the parent will allow them to die for some superstition...I'm totally opposed to such.
I'm really frustrated to how the parent thinks dying and leaving a child alone without a mother is a good thingsmiley: mad argh So the parent did the right thing according to how she believed...well, aint' that niceWTF
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Going down to 1 meeting a week.
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offlinematitalica
Going down to 1 meeting a week.
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So mom says they are only going to have Sunday meetings any more, and only 2 3 day assemblies per year. Sounds like they are strictly turning to the jw.org for their daily food.
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Soooooo.... what happened to "Do not neglect the gathering of yourselves together" that they have shoved down people's throats for years (and used as the basis by which to judge the quality of some member's "spirituality?") But, boy, do I bet the r and f are going to be happy with that one!
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Wait... what? Really?
-Dave
“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy.' They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
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Really and truly? Wow! That would be a radical change from the Sunday meetings for two long hours, Tuesday night book study (yawn!), AND the two hours on Thursdays (double yawn!). When is this supposed to happen?
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Aparently she got bad info from the CO, as soon as he left I guess the elders had different plans.
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I was just going to write, "Really? Just decided to join 'Babylon the Great'? Which is doing quite well financially with only Sunday meetings.
Seemed rather impossible that they would down-size to only ONE meeting per week---and miss out on the money. But then again the people would be so glad to have the meetings cut they may open their purses even wider. But what would happen without the regular brain-washing?
The cuts do not seem likely--or do they think such a plan would have the apostates scrambling to get back in............Rolling
Matitalica it must be your mom's wishful thinking. Who wouldn't want those boring, time wasting meetings out!
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Well well WELL! That's a turn around for the people from the good book!
My dad hasn't said anything yet BUT he has only just started going back again since my mum's death. One meeting per week eh. What's the bet it's all about safety in these wicked times ... or saving money in these wicked times ... or just because of these wicked times!
That's why they've spent all their money on their little TV channel ...... and singers ..... and song writers who write just like Randy Newman!
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status offlineMerchant of Malice
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I can only hope this is the case...though technically I've already cut down to the Sunday meetings as I have a night class on Thursdays (learning to program in Java)!
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or do they think such a plan would have the apostates scrambling to get back in
Great point GF!! Well I for one would certainly be rushing back..........anyone with me?? .......what no takers?? smiley: tongue
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i will be interested to see how this pans out. I wonder how true this is?
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I wonder, too. Maybe their Thursday night meetings are having such bad attendance that they feel they will pick up on attendance on Sundays if it's the only meeting. I wonder if they'll make it three hours, to include some kingdom ministry stuff. Interesting thought.
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If they do they will have to have the rank and file dedicate another evening during the week as family study night or something. They could save on paper...you know they wouldn't have to print the KM's anymore for Thursday service meeting. Just sayin...
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Has anyone had or heard confirmation about the slack tarts no longer wanting to meet so often yet?
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Hi, I am new here and my name is Todd. I was a JW for over 35 years. I do not attend anymore, but my sister goes to meetings, and I get the information from her.
There are (2) one day assemblies per year---one in the fall and one in the spring. The conventions during summer are NOW called Regional Conventions and they are still 3 days.
Circuit Overseers only speak on Tuesday nights (or whatever is in your area) and then Sundays. They are also given the responsibility to appoint and remove elders; not NY anymore. These changes were effective within the last two years.
I hope this helps!
ETA: My sister's meeting is on Tuesday nights and family study is on Wed. nites. They still have Sunday meetings.
Last Edited By: Tain Apr 5 15 5:54 PM. Edited 1 times.
status offlinewomanbeyondtime
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So wow. I knew they had cut back years ago. So whatever happened to assembling more and more as the day draws near. Probably too many break downs due to pressures of living the witness life. But then they will find out that they lose their edge on mind - control. tough decision. In my early years it was just standard that the Thursday night meeting ran till 10. Remember the 8 days assemblies form 9 till 9? I fainted dead away in Pasadena Rose Bowl 1964. I can tell you I don't miss it but I do think I got some good skills and discipline there. Still I am glad I have moved on
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Please note, the OP has clarified that this rumour was not true:
matitalica wrote:
Aparently she got bad info from the CO
There are still two meetings a week.
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Thanks Todd .... and Russ ................
My dear old dad has been sucked back into attending meetings again. The local elders waited three months to the day after my mum died .... and then swooped on in. I guess they're missing their little whipping boy ... as they have disparaged and ridiculed my dad for 50 odd years now and he still allows them to. He doesn't always go and freely admits (with a little rebellious chuckle) to falling asleep in front of the telly when he's 'supposed to go out' ............... but it's Tuesday nights and Sunday mornings in his local hall. No more group study and because he's the only remaining jdub in the house ..... no family study nights either.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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The Rapture....really
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The Rapture....really
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I was reading comments on an Ex-JW forum that said that now "they now believe in a Rapture-esque ending to the anointed ".
I haven't heard this before. Can anyone else substantiate this new teaching. Guess I have been out of the loop for too long. smiley: roll
status offlineJoe Magarac
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Without using the word "rapture", this is one of the things Pastor Russell said was going to happen in 1914.
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I think the use of the word 'rapture' has been avoided in the past as it sounds too evangelical-like Dee. As Joe pointed out ... old Charlie made all kinds of predictions for himself and his followers.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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I kinda figured it was too good to be true. I'm always hoping for something so outrageous that a sane person just can't ignore it and plod along doing meetings and service. My middle son just keeps on going. I keep hoping he comes to my door with a confused look upon his face asking for help with leaving the borg. I know, I know....I'm just dreaming.
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Inspector I have been reading and reading and I think there are a lot of things that are so outrageous that a sane person wouldn't ignore. I am never giving up. I think with enough patience and the right questions...the right conversations...I think eventually anyone can see the light. I hope that happens with your middle son one day, that he does come to you with the confused look upon his face. I hope your dream comes true one day.
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Don't give up hope, Inspector. Your son may still come around. I still hope someday my own JW family will wake up. Just keep planting those seeds and maybe someday, something will bloom.
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Dee ... you and I are no longer part of that cult and neither are most of the other members in here ..... so there IS hope yet!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Paragraph 8: One of the events mentioned in these verses is the ‘gathering of the chosen ones.’ (Matt. 24:31) Hence, it appears that all anointed ones who still remain on earth after the initial part of the great tribulation has passed will at some point be raised to heaven before the outbreak of the battle of Armageddon. This adjusts what was stated on this subject in “Questions From Readers” in The Watchtower of August 15, 1990, page 30.
7/15/13
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Thanks Vin ..... the WBTS certainly does like to change things up when they feel the need don't they! Imperfect men and all .... that will be the excuse.
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Longest thread ever - ARMAGEDDON here yet?
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status offlineBilly Sugger
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It's here!!! It's here!!!!......look I grabbed my camera to prove it.
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Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
status offlineBilly Sugger
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Ha, was only joking.....
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Yes, indeed....not a sign at all....although we have 3 dogs in the house now....and that looks like the big A!!!
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
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status offlinesg75
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Lol, Billy. Good one! I sympathize about the dogs. We have one who can trash a house in no time flat. No matter how bad she is, she's so sweet we can't stay mad. Wouldn't trade her for the world.
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It IS here...it has to be...please make JW.TV STOP!!!!!!!
Regards Paul
Read my novel Boomshot (18+)
http://www.amazon.com/Boomshot-Hunt-Killer-Paul-Jackson-ebook/dp/B00VSLG48W/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1428756971&sr=1-1&keywords=boomshot
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
status offlineHumbleLove
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I've been working on taxes....and there is no sign of it anywhere.
the only Big A I have been seeing is on Schedule A!
status offlineBilly Sugger
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It's here, I have seen it through my tellingscope.
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
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“Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma - which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of other's opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.” -Steve Jobs
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References to JWs in TV/Film
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offlineRob
References to JWs in TV/Film
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Oct 2 11 12:28 PM
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I remember a funny scene from one episode of the Simpsons when two dubs are walking up to the Simpson's door, but decide that they should go do something useful with their lives right before they ring the doorbell.
I'm wondering, do any of you know of references to/jokes about the dubs on tv shows or in movies? That's the only one I've ever seen.
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I remember there was a character on the show Noah's Arc that had been raised jw - Wade, the love interest for the main character Noah.
Set me on fire if that's your desire. Set me in flames but dont make me change....I know how to be myself.
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status offlineAndriaSyxx
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There was another one in The Simpsons where Marg was so bored with her home life that she was ecstatic when the jdubs rang her door bell
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status offlineVancity
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I recall watching an episode of "the Golden Girls" as a kid, the doorbell rings in the middle of the night when all the old ladies are sitting at the dining room table. Someone says "who could that be at this hour?" and Bea Arthur replies "maybe it's a Jehovah's Witness with a caffeine problem."
Ok, perhaps the joke is a little cheezy, but it was quite funny as a kid to hear anything regarding the dubs on tv.
status offlinemidnight radio1
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Just thought of a few more....
On the show, The Practice, one of the main characters, Rebecca, was involved in a bomb explosion and unconscious in the hospital and then they revealed that she was supposedly a lapsed jw and her lawyer co-workers had to fight with her jw mother over whether or not she'd get a blood transfusion.
The movie A Perfect World - starring Kevin Costner and Clint Eastwood- the plot revolves around Costner's robber character holding a jw boy hostage, during which time he lets him do all the fun stuff he wasnt allowed to before, like wear a Halloween costume, etc.
Also, this is a comic, not movie/tv, but, there was a Far Side once captioned "The Blob Family at Home" showing a family of blobs and jw's about to come to their door and one of them yells, "quick, act like bean bag chairs!"
I seem to recal the Evil Monkey from Family Guy converted to jw. Also, in the movie Coneheads, there is a scene where some of the characters pose as jw, I believe.
Set me on fire if that's your desire. Set me in flames but dont make me change....I know how to be myself.
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I remember from the show "Scrubs," there were a couple jw jokes... Turks mom is a jw on the show. They also had an episode where there is a jw patient that refuses blood that annoys Dr. Cox.
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status offlinenevermind
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midnight radio1 wrote:
I seem to recal the Evil Monkey from Family Guy converted to jw. Also, in the movie Coneheads, there is a scene where some of the characters pose as jw, I believe.
Terrible quality video but made me piss myself laughing!
status offlinevalpohawkeye
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The one from Coneheads was classic (and somewhat accurate)!!!
status offlinePieRSquare
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I watched a movie the other night called "The Perfect Host" where there was a neighbor next door to the antagonist that was a JW. It was pretty funny actually. The main character asked if he could use her phone and was trying to act as a JW, and so she asked where his cross was. He said it was taken from him when he was mugged, and then she basically slammed the door in his face after saying that he obviously wasn't a JW since they didn't celebrate holidays or acknowledge the cross. My reaction: "Clever girl..."
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i forgot... "old school" if it wasnt already mentioned. There is a scene where vince vaughn says a quick line about the person at the door must be a jw.
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status offlinematitalica
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I think there were some other Family Guy references besides the Evil Monkey becoming a JW. Also I seem to vaguely recall a joke or two on Futurama and The Cleveland Show. The Coneheads one was awesome =D
status offlineleostarzz
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oh many thanks..matitalice ...thats was so good ...made my day ..yea there's cookies...love it...lol
status offlineTrue Islam Allah
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LOL @ Scooby doo.
There was a Waynes Bros. Episode when Shawn and Marlon knock on Sherman Hemsley's door and he says something like "Im sick of you damn Jehovahs witnesses... Leave before I hit you over the head with a Watchtower." My dad (elder) was dying laughing at the time.
Also "Coming to America" movie with Eddie murphy. An exboyfriend comes over to the dads house while theres company over and the dad shut the door on him. The company asks who was it and he says " uhhh Jehovah's Witnesses"
uhhh thats all that come to mind.. the rest are already on here.
“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” - Buddha
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status offlineGurgi
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This ones's from U.K. T.V. but i cannot remember the year (shockingly for me!...) i do know the name of the comedy sketch show was Absoloutely and it was shown on BBC2.
In the sketch, two jdubs knock on a mans door and are pleased to be invited in. They give each other an eerie grin in a - yes! a victim kind of way. The man who invited them in doesn't stop talking and is completely oblivious to their efforts to convert him. It ends up where the two jdubs cannot wait to get out.
In a different comedy sketch show (the name of which i've completely forgotten.. shockingly for me). A man is watering his hanging baskets outside his front door and comments to his neighbour, "I like hanging baskets". His neighbour replies, "Yeah, so do i" and then you see him watering his own hanging baskets with the feets of what i presume are supposed to be two jdub men dangling at the side as if they've been hung.
Edit: Just remembered the name of the show the above sketch was from. Hale and Pace, shown on ITV. Again it's going back a few years.
The scooby doo 2 film one is a classic though, my daughter loves scooby doo. I do a pretty good Shaggy impression and my daughter does a well good Scooby Doo : )
Last Edited By: Gurgi Nov 23 11 12:31 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineFair St
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Okay this isnt a tv/film reference but I had to share :-)
I bought my son a Far Side comic book for Christmas (Gallery 5 in case you were curious) anyhow before I wrapped it I quickly flipped through it and the very first page it landed on has a jw joke! It shows a living room scene of the Blob family and they say "its jehovahs witness quick pretend to be bean bag chairs!" I laughed so hard!! Once my son unwraps it I will scan the page and post it...it really was just too funny!!
"Love looks not with the eyes but with the mind."
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status offlinepomegranate
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I forgot that Wade on Noah's Arc was supposed to be an ex JW! Cuz that makes me wanna see the movie again, where his mom says something to Noah like, "And who are you, the pastor?" I wish people would do their research, not because I'm all uptight about them getting JWs right, but just for the sake of good movies and TV.
status offlinepcangel
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Agreed Cheyenne...you can always tell those who actually know the religion and who doesn't and it's actually annoying for people to get it wrong.
status offlineabby7149
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The TV show Community has several JW references as one of the characters, Troy(portrayed by Donald Glover aka Childish Gambino) is supposed to be a JW. There are a few episodes that reference JWs, such as when Troy has his 21st birthday and they celebrate with a cake that says "Hello during a random dessert, the month and day of which coincide numerically with your expulsion from a uterus"
Another episode features Troy's struggle with wanting to celebrate Christmas his friend Abed says he has made a loophole... cue them performing the Christmas Infiltration rap which is quite hilarious... you can watch it here for a laugh:
status offlinebirdwoman2
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There is a Danish TV series called Dicte whose main character is an exJW and the theme of shunning is woven into the overall plot.
http://theeurotvplace.com/2014/11/dicte-addictive-danish-mystery-series-now-streaming/#.VSXyTdzF_aI
At the age of 16, Dicte ran away from home after her Jehovah’s Witness parents forced her to give up her newborn son for adoption. Fast forward 24 years: Dicte, still carrying that “empty feeling in [her] belly,” has come home to Aarhus from Copenhagen to start life anew with her teenaged daughter, Rose (Emilie Kruse), following her divorce from the philandering Torsten (Lars Ranthe, Sommer).
The two season series is available on Netflix. Season two is good - it confronts the blood transfusion doctrine.
The show is subtitled but it is an excellent series to watch - highly recommended by moi.
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NON-JW related books that EVERY JW (or ex) should read!
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offlinedude
NON-JW related books that EVERY JW (or ex) should read!
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Heres an interesting idea, we all know about Crisis of Conscience and Gentile Times Reconsidered, etc... I thought it would be nice to start a thread discussing books absolutely not related to JW's that are essential for jws or ex jws to read. If I was to choose only one book (and I now wish I was forced to read this in High School) that I would recommend to someone with a jw background (that didnt directly talk about jws), it would be 1984 by George Orwell. The parallels are stunning and the lessons are fantastic (not to mention the amazing quotes and things said). I believe It has become (no exaggeration) my FAVORITE book! If you havent read 1984, do so ASAP.
What other literature would you recommend? (and feel free to leave comments!)
EDIT TO ADD LINK : FREE 1984 http://www.george-orwell.org/1984
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Last Edited By: dude Mar 26 11 6:05 AM. Edited 1 time.
status offlineSuperslave
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The Book Thief by Markus Zusak. I love this book with other books & stories inside. I would also recommend my blog for anyone who like dark short stories. http://samanthazdanavich.blogspot.com/
Young boy: Do not try and bend the spoon.
That's impossible.
Instead, only try to realise the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Young boy: There is no spoon.
The Matrix
status offlineRaine
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1984 is now on my kindle. Thank you for the rec.
I can't say I can think of relatable reads of my JW life. Or at least I haven't made the connection.
I'm somewhat of an escapist reader. so a parallel would have to be pretty blatant.
I didn't make the leap with the Matrix movie until I came here. I kind of saw it like everyone else, that's never been a JW.
It was cool to get that point of view.
So I'm looking forward to reading 1984.
status offlineRaine
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edit: oops double post..sorry
Last Edited By: Raine Mar 26 11 3:45 PM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineesar haddon
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God Is Not Great - Christopher Hitchens. Indispensible.
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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Although a JW probably would quickly write the main character's religious experience off as a 'cult' and certainly not like the JW's the parallels are subtly drawn in THE BOOK OF FRED by Abby Bardi http://www.amazon.com/Book-Fred-Novel-Abby-Bardi/dp/0743411943
A friend gave me this book shortly after I'd left the JW's and although I didn't need any proof that something was wrong with my old religion, I did note many parallels.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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status offlineKing Korn
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Anyone here ever read "Stranger in a Strange Land"? I tell you this, you won't think that polygamy is so bad after reading it. I read it while still being a JW and by the end of the book I was wishing I could love the whole world like Michael Valentine Smith did in the book.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w...ranger_in_a_Strange_Land
It's not a bad read, it's AMAZING.
Here's the link to my story.http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17799/New-guy-here-my-life-story-Med-Long?page=1
Last Edited By: King Korn Mar 28 11 7:24 PM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineVancity
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Basically after spending your whole life in a cult that denies basic science and makes false claims about the world, I find the most important books to read when coming out of such a circle of ignorance are books by reputable scientists designed to teach us how the world really works. I just finish reading Stephen Hawking's "The Grand Design" and though I admit some things did go over my head, it was an amazing outlook on the current understanding of physics and how the universe works. I recommend it regardless of religious beliefs, but he makes a very convincing argument against the need of a divine creator of everything.
I've also read most of Richard Dawkins' books as well, and again, some of it is above my education level, but he has been indispensable in helping me gain a better understanding of how evolution works. It's one thing to trust biologists when they tell you the we evolved over large periods of time, it's quite another thing to read about the intricacies of exactly how the process works and why it makes so much sense and has all the evidence to support it.
I'm an amazon.ca freak, so I generally try to order 3-4 books at a time and wade my way through them over a period of time, so as I come across more great books, I'll be sure to share.
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Rise Again by Ben Tripp is awesome if you like Zombie books. It feels awesome to be able to read and watch things without the feeling that I am condoning the actions of others. Maybe I will get "zapped" as my bible teacher used to put it. lmfao
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A book called Wild Swans - Three daughters of china
Amazing book and is the true life story of 3 chinese women, a grandmother, her daughter and then grandaughter. The book is written by the latter and chronicles the life of the family from a China ruled by war lords, then occupied by Japan and finally the Communist regime that followed. The part about communism is a must for all ex jw's as you see how a family is torn apart by devotion to the organization and in a sense cult of Mao. I will not spoil this but I was discussing this not so long back with an active JW and the similarities between the org and communist China actually shocked this person....anyway have a read.
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If you are into fiction and/or sci-fi... I recommend "Boat of a Million Years" by Poul Anderson. It has an interesting perspective on what it would be like to live longer than our natural life span.
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I would suggest Ayn Rand (The Fountainhead, Atlas Shrugged) books and Don Miguel Ruiz (The Four Agreements) and Elizabeth B. Brown (Living Successfully With Screwed-Up People).
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1. Zacheria Sitchen, Genesis Revisited
2. Karen Armstron, A History of God
3. Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh
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I noticed the last post on this thread was back in 2011. Does anybody have more books to add to the list? I have been going through the posts compiling a list of books.
Thank you for any suggestions :)
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I would recommend "The Bible Unearthed" by Israel Finklestein and Neil Asher Silberman. I have both read it and listened to it on audio books AND there is a video out by the same. Also, the books by Elaine Pagels like "Beyond Belief, The Gospel of Thomas. And also look into the Gospel of Mary Magdella...it is all vey interesting and eye opening reading on the 'scripture' that didn't make the cut back in the third or fourth century...at least 300 years after the events of the Christian Era.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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Two books that really helped me out were Fahrenheit 451 by ray Bradbury and v for vendetta ( for some reason) by Alan Moore. Although the second one is a graphic novel.
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Thank you both for the suggestions. I am slowly starting to read the books that have recommended throughout various threads in here. image
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Frozen
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offlineRaine
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Has any one else seen this movie. I dragged my son to see it. (He actually enjoyed it, but that's our secret) It was really because I wanted to see the movie.
Gosh. Ok the Mickey Mouse mini movie at the beginning was done so well. I really enjoyed that.
But let's get to Frozen. I was curious about the movie because I had heard many good things. I didn't except to be blown away. And so darn relatable. It touched some owie spots in my heart. I love what Disney is doing with female characters. The song, Let it Go made me weep. I may have to buy it on iTunes. And I got to vicariously relive the sister bond that was so powerful in this movie.
I'm probably talking it up too much. There were bits that felt like it dragged a little. But it also had cute - factor so...It's forgiven :D
I was curious what others thought.
ETA: Here is the Let It Go song from the movie. Sung by Idina Menzel. Who apparently play Elphaba in the Broadway musical Wicked (I'm guess the US show)
I Ctrl+Alt+Deleted My Religious Programming
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I would consider myself foolish if I listened to someone who refused to listen to me.
Last Edited By: Raine Jan 24 14 8:39 PM. Edited 1 time.
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Hi, Raine....I did not see the movie yet, but I get the inspiring, affirming message of the song "Let It Go." This is the kind of song that swells my heart and makes tears come to my eyes (I am an absolute sucker for a movie that will make me cry), and gives me an "I Will Survive" kind of moment. Thanks for sharing it with us..... Cry with tissue crying Yeah Beating heart
status offlineMystla
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I watched that video this morning, which caught the attention of my kids. We then watched it 7 (!!!) more times. I think we'll have to go see the movie. smiley: wink
"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago; the second best time is now"
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@Cangie. It really does. And the first time I heard it. I'm in the theatre with my son with tears pouring down my face. And he keeps looking at me. Clearly confused. And pats my arm. (sweetie) I was taken by surprise. I didn't except all the feels I got from this movie.
I just can't stop listening/watching that song.
@Myst I think your girls might love it. It's very strongly about sisters and being there for each other. And a nice twist on "The man saves the day" scenario that is often the Disney way. With perhaps the exception of Lilo and Stitch. (Which is also IMO an awesome movie).
I just read that there are plans to turn this into a Broadway Musical. I'd definitely go see that.http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/frozen-musical-is-headed-broadway-670651
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My boys are hanging out to see this movie too Raine. And so are Gav and I.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Saw it with my two teenagers and we liked it a lot. Def. makes you cry. Good twist too and that Disney is getting away from the damsel in distress theme. I thought the voice sounded familiar. Now that you mention it I can hear the connection to that wicked character. Thanks for putting it together.
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I was moved to see it a couple of weeks ago after reading a comment by a "Christian Conservative" who said that it had lesbian overtones and was an awful movie to show to children. I found that it was an affirming movie about sibling love (sisters) not lesbian and had some pretty good themes regarding marriage too. Like "Don't marry a man you've only known for one day". I will be happy for my grand daughter to see this one. I may have to purchase it for her myself.
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I definitely loved the theme of the movie, but (and I know this will be a hugely unpopular opinion) I didn't actually care for the movie. Unlike all of my mom friends, it did not move me to tears (and I do cry in some movies). For me, there was far too much singing and I didn't care for the songs. I know I'm in the minority with that opinion. My favorite part was the 3d Mickey Mouse mini movie at the beginning. That was awesome!
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I saw it, but was kind of meh for me. I'm not a big fan of musicals in the first place though.
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I now have Anna and Elsa living at my house full time. And yes, they sing about everything! smiley: laugh
"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago; the second best time is now"
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The movie is great! Why would you have to drag anyone to see any Disney movie that just blows my mind, never be too old for Disney, the movies are always written in a way to he enjoyable for everyone 😋
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I liked Frozen, but I think Tangled is my favorite of the recent Disney movies; I liked Tangled far better than Frozen, found it funnier and more charming. Maybe just because there was such a huge amount of hype over Frozen that it was a bit of a let down when I finally watched it. It was still an excellent movie and I shall always be a Disney fangirl lol, but a bit overrated in my opinion. Good luck telling that to my neighbors though, who even today still sing Let It Go on their karaoke machine every Saturday :v
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Horror Geeks ;D
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offlinegiggler69
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Any other horror movie geeks on here? I love a bit of bloody mayhem, especially zombie movies or J horrors ;D
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I am decidedly NOT a fan of horror! But I did move this thread to where other fans of horror might see it more easily. smiley: smile
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I'm a big horror fan.
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status offlineMerchant of Malice
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Not a hardcore fan, but I do like watching them on occasion. I especially love Asian horror - Old Boy, Doll Master, Audition and Thirst are amongst my favorite movies. :)
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I've only started to watch horror in the last year or so, since I suddenly came to the realization of why I "hated" those movies. I had nothing to do with the movies, it was that my old JW brain was subconsciously telling me to stay away. Once I figured that was the hold up (idiot!), I happily enjoy watching a good horror movie.
So...if anyone has some good recommendations to great horror movies, let me know!
...Rob.
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I used to steer clear of them because of the same reasoning (or is that conditioning!!!!!) that Rob added above ..... then I steered clear of them because I'm too bloody chicken to watch most of them! I'm not a fan of horror movies at all.
Have you watched "Wolf Creek" yet Rob? It's an Aussie movie.
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Haven't seen "Wolf Creek" but I'll add it to my list. It isn't available to stream on Netflix, but I'll keep an eye out!
...Rob.
“This I believe: That the free, exploring mind of the individual human is the most valuable thing in the world. And this I would fight for: the freedom of the mind to take any direction it wishes, undirected. And this I must fight against: any idea, religion, or government which limits or destroys the individual.”
-John Steinbeck
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Saw movies (I want to know what sick, twisted mind thinks up that shit?), Final Destination movies.
Love them.
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status offlineIcarus
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I don't like horror................but......
World War Z looks like a very interesting film with Brad Pitt coming out in June in the USA....
Im there dude...greasy bucket of popcorn and all...
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I might qualify as a horror geek, not sure... my husband and I love watching horror movies of all kinds; demons, ghosts, gore, murder, whathaveyou. Our favorites tend to be Asian(Thai films in particular tend to impress us) movies, like Coming Soon(one of the best horror movies that I have seen, both creepy and jumpscares), Shutter, Phobia 2(Ha phraeng). We also enjoy the more sadistic and twisted films like A Serbian Film, Human Centipede, things like that. We like to be disturbed lol. Some Western ones aren't too bad either, recently we watched The Possession of Michael King and The Taking of Deborah Logan, both of which we thought were good.
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Exodus movie
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offlinesg75
Exodus movie
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Anyone thinking of seeing the new Exodus movie with Christian Bale as Moses? I'm conflicted about this one. Usually, I avoid Bible-themed movies and books. On the other hand, the special affects might make it worth watching. The parting of the Red Sea might be cool in 3D. And Christian Bale is nice to look at!
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Oh I definitely want to see this sg!! I love all these 'bible' films........obviously not because of the bible.....but I always enjoy 'epics'.....like The Fall of the Roman Empire and such!! (and Christian Bale is definitely an improvement on Charlton Heston) smiley: tongue
I remember seeing the old version of Exodus (The Ten Commandments) when I was a kid.........and having seen it again in more recent years, the special effects are not exciting to say the least lol!! So as you say it should be quite something with todays technology!!
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
Last Edited By: solitaire Dec 1 14 4:42 AM. Edited 1 times.
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Christian Bale was the best Batman. Great actor. We were allowed to watch the Ten Commandments when we were kids, too. Exciting stuff when you're a ten-year-old in the 80s. Kids now would probably think it was pretty cheesy. CGI has made a huge differance in modern movies.
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Just watched Harry Potter...
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offlinenobodyknows
Just watched Harry Potter...
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Jan 8 15 9:04 PM
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I've been out now for a little over 3 years and it just now watched Harry Potter for the first time. BRILLIANT! I look forward to watching all of them at some point (when it's not midnight of course). Funny, I just hadn't really gotten around to watching it. Next is Lord of the Rings! Feels so good to be bad!
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
status offlineLocutus
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Lol,
Watch out for Voldemort. He is very bad. Evil bad. (:
Isn't it great to be able to tell the difference between fiction, religious superstion and the real world? Most people can never figure out the divisions between.
Cheers,
T
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Last year I read the Harry Potter books for the first time. I was amazed that they were really good, especially the later ones. Now I'll have to watch the movies.
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For all of you who have enjoyed Harry Potter's magical world, I would like to share some classic films that you have probably missed out on because they fall on the 'banned' list of watchable entertainment. These movies fall within the fantasy/fairy tale/magical genre as well and are some of my favorite movies. I would watch any one of them again in a hearbeat.
Which I can do now with this first one as I found the whole movie, Willow, on Youtube.
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These next ones are trailers.
Polar Bear King.
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Jan 10 15 8:56 AM
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And...
The Princess Bride.
status offlinenobodyknows
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I LOVE The Princess Pride. I grew up watching that movie, can quote the whole thing.
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Princess Bride is classic. My JW mom let us watch that one but not Wizard of Oz. I'll have to look those other movies up. Thanks for the suggestions, birdwoman.
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Well done on catching up with the Harry Potter movies ... although I am not a fan of them at all myself. My boys and Gav have watched the whole series ... I think I got partway through the first one and started yawning!
Dianne ... I love the movie Willow ..... haven't seen Polar Bear King so will look for that one ... and we've almost worn out out The Princess Bride. Lord of the Rings I've really enjoyed ... didn't think I would as I didn't really know much about the books ...... but I really like them. Aragorn is a bit of a honey!!!
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status offlineCeili
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Hoo hoo, Rhonda,
nice to hear you liked Lord of the Rings. The books have been a steady companion of mine. Always good for a dive away from it all....and some pretty good parables, too.
But I am at a bit of a loss again as to why they or Harry Potter should be on the banned list for JW. Because of sort of demons in it?
xxx
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Harry Potter and LOTR are banned reading for JWs because of magic. Harry and his friends are wizards and witches. Gandalf and Saruman are wizards. Magic, even used for good, is demonic for JWs. I wasn't allowed to watch The Wizard of Oz because of the Wicked Witch and the Wizard (even though the Wizard was a fake!) I'm with you Rhonda. Aragorn is a hotty. Legolas close second. I read the LOTR on the sly for the first time when I was a teen and fell in love with the story. I didn't think the movies would live up to my mental pictures but was blown away.
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I forgot to post another magical movie that I love...good soundtrack in this one. :)
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Lord of The Rings is next! We just finished the whole HP series tonight. I thought they were awesome! Rhon you should give them another shot. They only get better as they go along. And darker. I can totally see why they were banned by the JWs, I'll be honest lol.
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I love movies and let my kids watch almost anything just so we could talk about it afterwards. I thought it was ridiculous to ban R movies. Most PG and G movies are not that good and movies of value are R rated. At any rate my kids learned a lot and it improved real discussion skills. Yes the Lord of the Rings trilogy was great but the book is deeper. Still haven't read it my ex read it over and over. My kids watched the entire series of the Winds of War and War and Remembrance. I took my kids to college with me when I went for 4 years occasionally and let them bring any books to the meetings so they could sit there and read something they could understand during the repetitious meetings. I guess I was a thorn in the "elders" side. They did try to stop me but could not. I mean what are they going to do?
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Now I'm through the first LOTR and half of the second! I'm on a roll!
"(actually you are a wonderful SOMEBODY!)" ~ Punk
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Oh well done you Wonderful Somebody! It's great most of us have wide screen TVs too ...... imagine trying to capture all the images of LotR without a big screen!!!! The books are supposed to be really good although I've not read them.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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I had a good laugh a few years ago. One of the elders daughter and wife loved the Twilight books. They would actually show up at midnight releases. Apparent quite a few jw's were into the books and movies. Eventually a talk was given banning books that had anything to do with vampires and werewolves, both being demoniacally inspired and worldly so all the jw's here had to throw their books and movies away.
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LOL It was the ban on vampires, werewolves, ghosts, and all things magic that made me WANT to read books about those things. The original Dracula by Bram Stoker is really creepy. I love ghost stories. It's my theory that if you tell a kid they absolutely can't watch or read something, that just makes them want to do it all the more. Your kids are so lucky, womanbeyondtime. I wish I'd had that sort of relationship with my mom. Instead, I had to sneak books home or keep them in my locker at school.
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Willy Wonka
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offlinehotcommodity21
Willy Wonka
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HILARIOUS
oh god.
Johnny Depp was properly metrosexual in this film. he had a bad daddy complex and was extremely sarcastic and rude to the children! I like to think that's how I'll grow up one day :) minus the daddy complex, of course.
Best line of the movie... Willy Wonka keeps telling Mike TV that he's mumbling. Even though he's talking perfectly clear.
'MUMBLER!!!!!!
SERIOUSLY I can't hear a WORD you're saying!'
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I think I'm put off this because I didn't like the original film.
Have you seen the original? If so, how does it compare?
Of course, it may well be worth a trip to the pics in the summer hols, just to have a blimp at sexy Johnny Depp. ;p
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of course i've seen the original! who hasn't!
i like them both. la la laaa... *goes to dance in marshmallow meadows*
status offlineHumbleLove
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I saw the words Willa Wonka....and I thought to myself. It's time to break out the chocolate while reading new books and movies.
Nothing like eating chocolate to take away the troubles of the day :).
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Interstellar
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offlinematitalica
Interstellar
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Anyone seen Interstellar yet? The girls and I went and saw it 2 weeks ago and they really liked it, which surprised the heck out of me seeing as how the movie could get a G rating IMO. And of course the jw mother had to tie jehovah into itsmiley: ohwell. I would like to see the movie again, but next time I'll wait until it comes out on Amazon so I can fast forward through the boring parts.
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I haven't seen it yet but was wondering how Jdub mom was linking anything jehovah like into it, sheesh! They twist their delusion to fit anything I guess. I'm back to waiting for stuff to come out on video or Netflix. Can't afford the movies!
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Hey Matt
yes we went to see it last week...........we went in an afternoon, and ended up the only two in the cinema!! It felt like we were having a private screening lol!! I really enjoyed it....especially how they interpreted the 'dimensions' at the end smiley: smile
But then I love anything sci-fi.......especially when it involves time differences or parallell time-frames!!
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I really liked it. I love sci fi, and space exploration. Beginning was slow, but once they got into space it was awesome.
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Terra Nova?
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status offlinewhytebyrd2
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I haven't really thought of having a 'favorite' actor in a long time but John Barrowman comes in as a pretty strong lead for me! Love him in Torchwood and the totally free and uninhibited homosexuality of some of the story lines in Torchwood I think are so refreshing. The more open TV and other media can be about the normalcy of sexuality between man/woman, man/man, woman/woman or combinations of I think the better able we as humans can be equipped to move on to more important issues. Love is a GOOD thing smiley: wink
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I totally agree and it's something I really respected about the show.
I just finished Terra Nova.. *sigh* There is obviously more to the story. More I would have liked to see for sure. But I admit it was a pretty epic finale with some satisfying resolutions.
I hate early show cancellations.
Spoiler [+]
Looks like the negotiations for netflix taking up Terra Nova for a second season have fallen through.
Why it was axed with 10.1 million viewers in ratings?
Fox chief of entertainment Kevin Reilly had, however, declared himself pleased at the show’s first season, but claimed that it was time for them to find a new broadcaster, as he stated in January: “It was an exciting bet to take, and I think it’s proven that it was worthwhile. We made money on it, the studio made money on it, the audience loved it, the show looked fantastic. [However] The show was hunting for itself creatively through the season.”
Stupid Fox!!
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status offlinewhytebyrd2
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One of the things that I did see about Terra Nova was the expense of the sets.
. http://www.aoltv.com/2010/10/14/the-terra-nova-pilot-already-costs-10-million-and-it-hasnt/
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Last Edited By: whytebyrd2 Jan 12 13 10:55 PM. Edited 1 times.
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I've heard speculation that the show may have become more expensive to make through the second season. With the addition of the badlands and new type of smarter Dino. That and the second season more often perform less well than the first season. (supposedly)
I mean I don't have to invest that kind of money. I can see why they would weigh that risk.
But I think the first season did find it's feet. And the ratings stayed fairly large across the season.
They admitted that it made them all money.
Perhaps the added drama at the beginning probably would have factored in to the final decision too.
Such a shame.
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I quite enjoyed Terra Nova, I have the whole season with the intent of watching it with my husband one of these days. He loves dinosaurs so even though they aren't the main plot here, I'm fairly certain he'll enjoy it as much as I did. Was a shame that it was canceled, I would have definitely enjoyed a few more seasons of it!
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Terra Nova?
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Terra Nova?
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Just found this series on Netflix and watched all 13 episodes this weekend. I really liked the premise of going back in time through a fracture in the space time continum.........it was right out of a Julian May novel except instead of just going back to the Pleistocene, they go back 85 million years to an age of dinosaurs. It's been a great escape this weekend! Anyone seen this one?
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I haven't even heard of this. I just looked it up and found that Fox canceled it after it's first season. Leave it to Fox to produce another great show, not advertise it, then cancel it after only one season! (I'm still mad about Firefly.. can you tell? smiley: wink)
I'm not too keen on the dinosaur aspect of this. Jurassic park gave me nightmares (seriously) and I've been avoiding all non-animated dinosaurs ever since. I might give this a try though.. just cause you said so. smiley: smile
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Just cancelled our cable, so I'm going to be using Netflix instant a lot more. :) I'll have to add this.
I watch Firefly and Serenity a few months ago, finally, and loved it! I hate TV executives.
I saw another sci-fi series on Netflix that I added to my queue - Warehouse 13. Has anyone watched this to let me know if it's worth viewing?
...Rob.
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Hey Wondering!
I LOVE Warehouse 13! You also might like Torchwood......a spinoff of Dr. Who.
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Misty, the dinosaurs aren't the main thing in many of the episodes although when they ARE the thing, it is very reminiscent of Jurassic Park eek The show is more of a 'Brave New World' kind of thing.....or something like that.....survivalist stuff! One of the main characters
Lang at the 2009 San Diego Comic-Con International
plays exactly the OPPOSITE kind of guy that he did in Avatar. It was nice not to hate him so much for his role. I wouldn't call him a 'nice' guy in this series but he is a 'good' guy. It's too bad it got cut.............I hate FOX.
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Last Edited By: whytebyrd2 Jan 7 13 7:43 PM. Edited 2 times.
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Yeah My heart is still broken over Firefly. I cried at the 10 year reunion. Dollhouse got almost 2 seasons at least.
I have tried to catch Terra Nova. I set my DVR and a storm hit the night of recording and I got the first 3 minutes. And then they shifted the time slot here a few times. So I'd set to record and then miss chunks of it.
I might have to get my hands on the whole season.
Two Shows I'm loving that I recently picked up.
Arrow. live action. loosely based on the Green Arrow comics
Beauty and the Beast (2012) Loosely based on the 80's version of the show.
And ladies you are welcome for the eye candy. For the guys both shows have pretty ladies.
But mostly the stories are compelling.
My husband just informed me he has the season of Terra nova... (Thanks for telling me darling)
I admire Fox for giving non mainstream shows a place to start/exist. But they are hopeless at handling the unique content and clueless about their audience.
I love this scene from the Big Bang Theory. Where�Sheldon lists evil people�and Rupert Murdoch is tied with Darth Vader�
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Rob, you might want to add Fringe to your list if you haven't seen it. It's a bit more like x-files than Warehouse 13, but a great sci-fi. We missed the last year or so of Warehouse 13.. have some catching up to do....
Raine, loved Dollhouse. smiley: smile
Sharon, I've added Terra Nova to our list of things to see. I'm trying to talk Jeff into watching the most recent Doctor Who. We've both seen previous incarnations and weren't impressed, but we hear good things about the current one. Jeff is still iffy about it though, lol. I'll get him to watch at least one or two episodes.
Speaking of trying a show.. We recently tried watching the very first episode of Twin Peaks. Remember that show from the early 90's (I think) that some of us were to strictly jw to watch when it aired? lol! Anyways.. We were wondering what all the hype was about, so we decided to give it a shot. It was TERRIBLE!! We managed to sit through the pilot, but just barely. Why oh why did people like that show? The acting was AWFUL and the script worse than the acting. The only thing this show had going for it was the scenery... and I can see that out my window and skip all the melodramatic bullshit!
Sorry if that offends anyone.. I know a lot of people loved Twin Peaks. What I can't figure out is WHY???? smiley: eek
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lol Twin Peaks "Wrapped in Plastic". I never really got into it back then. And was talking to someone who was really passionate about it. Went in depth for a while about the plot twists and nuances. And he insisted that I watch it. Because I confessed I didn't see much of it. And loaned me his DVD collection of the show. I tried. But the fact that it has aged terribly when you wouldn't expect that sort of story too. And the cringe worthy performances. I couldn't force myself. So I gave them back and said I just didn't get a chance to watch it. Still I admit my favourite part about the show. Is the opening theme music.
Like the X-files and Game of Thrones. You hear the music and know exactly what it belongs to.
I love Fringe. I sometime wish I could adopt Walter. I'm so sad this is the last season. smiley: frown
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Weeds first season opening with "Tiny boxes" is one that stuck in my head. I know the song was around long before the show, and that they only used it for the first season, but that is what it makes me think of. And that song sticks in my head for WEEKS at a time! I was singing it the other day and my 4 year old asked me what it meant. That was an interesting one to explain. smiley: happy
I know what you mean about Walter. Though I think I'd have to require he have that chunk of brain re-removed before he moved in with us. smiley: eek
Twin Peaks has become a standing joke with Jeff and I. Whenever we are trying to figure out what to watch and can't decide, one of us will say "we could always watch some more Twin Peaks!" And then we'll laugh and both say "NO!!" smiley: laugh
Great, now I have Tiny Boxes stuck in my head again....
"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago; the second best time is now"
-old Chinese proverb
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of the truth"
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“Joy is what happens to us when we allow ourselves to recognize how good things really are.” ― Marianne Williamson
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Was firefly a kind of spin off show from Buffy? it's by Josh Wheedon again wasn't it?
Yeah I could google it. Just got the complete Buffy box set for Christmas. Over 100 hours of fun. I may not surface for a while.
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Was firefly a kind of spin off show from Buffy?
No! Nonononononononono!!!!!
Firefly was an amalgamation of Science fiction and western. Perfectly executed. Yes, it was created by Joss Whedon, but no, not related to Buffy in any other way.
Firefly was better. smiley: happy
Now, stop what you are doing and go watch Firefly. Right now!! Do it!
"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago; the second best time is now"
-old Chinese proverb
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of the truth"
-Albert Einstein
“Joy is what happens to us when we allow ourselves to recognize how good things really are.” ― Marianne Williamson
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Terra Nova was totally 'escapist' TV watching for me............it may not equate to a great show, certainly not in the ranks of Firefly (RIP smiley: frown ) and towards the end it had a very Avatar like theme going and the bad guys were just as idiotic but hey...........I liked it for the escape as I said.
I never watched Twin Peaks. I only know it featured some woman that walked around with a log that she called her baby or something....cue Twilight Zone music.
Shane, I agree with Misty.........WATCH FIREFLY! I think you'll totally understand what all the talk is about then and you can join the ranks of fans frustrated by the shows demise.
Raine......I just downloaded bk 5, A Dance With Dragons onto my Kindle smiley: happy
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Mystla wrote:
Rob, you might want to add Fringe to your list if you haven't seen it. It's a bit more like x-files than Warehouse 13, but a great sci-fi. We missed the last year or so of Warehouse 13.. have some catching up to do....
Oh, no, my friend...I love Fringe, so no need to catch up. :) I'm very sad there are only 3 episodes left!
...Rob.
“This I believe: That the free, exploring mind of the individual human is the most valuable thing in the world. And this I would fight for: the freedom of the mind to take any direction it wishes, undirected. And this I must fight against: any idea, religion, or government which limits or destroys the individual.”
-John Steinbeck
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Mystla wrote:
Was firefly a kind of spin off show from Buffy?
No! Nonononononononono!!!!!
Firefly was an amalgamation of Science fiction and western. Perfectly executed. Yes, it was created by Joss Whedon, but no, not related to Buffy in any other way.
Firefly was better. smiley: happy
Now, stop what you are doing and go watch Firefly. Right now!! Do it!
I'm going to find this and watch this for free. I refuse to give FOX corp any more of my money than I have to. A friend on another forum was raving about it when we were discussing all things sci-fi but I never asked what it was about.
"To have it come around once is a dream, to have it come around twice is incredible. - Declan Kidney (Munster rugby coach) 24th May 2008
---*---
This is the dark heart of the Heineken Cup - Stuart Barnes in Thomond Park January 2006
---*---
http://youtu.be/BFJ65Og3A2o - Was at this match with an amazing finish. You will see Cian (red hat) behind the women in this clip 6:50-6:57. G'WAN MUNSTER !!!
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Raine......I just downloaded bk 5, A Dance With Dragons onto my Kindle smiley: happy
Awesome! ADWD is the only one I have read once. Not because it wasn't great. But it's the first book that I had totally spoiled for me.
I was reading it at a bus stop where I was waiting to meet a friend. And a guy comes up and says "Oh you're reading dance. I can't believe *insert MASSIVE SPOILER*" I lost my mind. I hate getting spoiled and this was a huge one. It really affected how I read the story.
And while I finished the book (I had waited 6 years for it) I haven't been able to pick it up again without feeling cheated from what could have been an awesome experience.
Firefly (like Myst said) is totally different from Buffy and Angel (I own all the seasons of both) But it definitely has the Whendonverse signature on it.
As far as fox goes. I don't believe fox still owns rights to it. if I remember correctly Joss and Universal pictures got the rights so they could make the movie Serenity. (Watch firefly first then the movie...you'll thank me later ;) )
So Joss is the one that gets more of the profit now. At least that's what he said in an interview when he mentioned people apologise to him for coming to the show so late.
Just to make you feel better when you decide you must own this show and include it in your dvd collection ;)
Oh a week ago. My bluray copy of season 1 Dollhouse arrived. Happy me :D
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And OT I've just finished the 3rd episode of Terra Nova
It has some funny - grounded moments in it.
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Torchwood is brilliant ........ the cast are great and Gwen's lovely Welsh accent is a great softener for the lovely Captain Jack ...
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Yeah I really liked Torchwood too.Wish there was more seasons to sink my visual teeth into.. John Barrowman (Captian Jack)
Is now in the show Arrow.
...Just in case you wanted to know ;)
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Raine, funny about episode 3 of TN...........it had me thinking of Hitchcock for a bit there smiley: laugh
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Yes! hahahaha me too!
I also love the line. *glares at daughter* That's how you know a boy likes you.
It was a pretty good episode. About to watch ep 6
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Arrow? Haven't heard of that one ... shall have to get my resident downloading guru (aka Gav) to find it for me! He's a gorgeous looking man ... and so is his husband!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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EXJW Childish Gambino (aka Donald Glover) has a new music video out
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Show him some love!
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“When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down ‘happy.' They told me I didn’t understand the assignment, and I told them they didn’t understand life.”
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So i finally told my mom i dont believe in this religion and she told the elders. They want to mwwt with me to help "convince" me but i already know im gonna get df so i just wanna have the best argument to show them why this religion and its governing body is not infallable. What topics should i discuss? im gonna tell them to answer each question i have and i know they wont be able too. I figured id ask them about the UN, false prophecies etc. I also want to come prepared with printed evidence to back up what i say so anything you guys could find would really help.
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The real question is, what is it that really convinced you it wasn't the truth to begin with? Because whatever you say or question, must be done with convinction without looking like you just read an apostate website. For me, it was discovering in our own literature that we worshipped Jesus till 1954. How can that harmonize with 1919? We rejected the Trinity, yet we did the most deplorable part of those who serve a Trinity. Christendom worships Jesus. As far as the U.N. thing, I've read many things about that and their are just different ways to view it. It, I feel, is not a strong talking point. Your reasons must be personal. You don't want to look like some young person who just wants to leave so they can pursue their own desires. You must look authoritative. If you go in with rock solid evidence, and give the impression you really want help and answers, you may not be DF'd. I did this sincerely. I even said Satan was blinding me. But when it was obvious no real answers or comfort was coming, I began to fade even though I am at the meetings with my wife and family. Service is zip. No longer commenting. Not in the school. The elders know why. They have no answers!
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Hey exmarksthespot,
It mostly doesn't seem to matter what you say, how much logic and reason go into it, how sincere you are....the elders and rank & file witness who are fully in and brainwashed only hear 'disloyal to GB'. That's it! Df'd...next?
Do you still live at home? It could get ugly...
You might try JWFacts and look for points that use their own publications and the Bible, sorta like vinman suggested. I tried the scientific approach with my dad and all he heard was 'you believe in evolution YOU'RE AN ATHEIST!!! JWs often equate evolution with atheism. They don't generally understand the process. I was just talking about the gene sequencing of Neaderthal. If you go that science route you might ask an older elder if it is still the belief that Adam was created around 6,000 years age and the flood happened around 2,800 bce (that was the teaching in the 1970's) and how that just totally doesn't jive with known ancient history from a geological/archeological standpoint. See talkorigins.org for some interesting discussion on that.
Well, whatever happens, hope it's not too brutal. You can unload here any time!
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Hi ex,
No use presenting reasoning at a judicial committee. The arguments and decisions they make will be based on their religious faith, not reason or fact.
You either repent and (or pretend to) accept what they are throwing down regardless of whether or not it makes sense, or if you refuse to, you are df'ed or reproved. That's the way it is. Trying to retaliate with actual facts will not make any difference in the outcome. Bringing forth dissenting information could make things worse for your family, as you could become known as an 'apostate'. Family relations become a lot more difficult if you are seen as 'opposed' .
Do your research and put off the elders meeting as long as you can. Your best defense is education; research the history of the organization and their beliefs and practices. They have no power over you if you don't meet with them!
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Hi ExMTS, a warm welcome to the site. I recognise that you want to leave and switch on some light bulbs in a few JW minds at the same time. This is an interesting game with the possibility of you being d/fd and the committee members left none the wiser.
Are you in a position to accept being disassociated or disfellowshipped without difficult repercussions?
I faded but found that I was treated as if disfellowshipped anyway so in retrospect I could have had discussions with the bros which could have been enjoyable for me but the family atmosphere was not right at the time in my case to do so.
However for you it might be good to express the fact (if this is correct) that you have lost faith in the Watchtower ...or JW org, since you can no longer conscientiously believe their teachings. If you don’t want the fallout from being disfellowshipped, I would go along with the idea that Vinman has, that there is no malice intended but simply a loss of faith which cannot warrant any punishment. For example you might conscientiously ask the question “If God was leading the organisation why did he let them believe for sixty years that the “generation of 1914” would also see the end of the old world system?” “Why have they got every last prediction wrong?” “If God was directing the WTBTS wouldn’t he get the predictions right and therefore wouldn’t they get the predictions right?”
Of course there are many other critically important arguments and you can find out from Watchtower sources on sites like JWFacts.com.
Wishing you well as you get your own life back.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
Last Edited By: half banana 3 days ago. Edited 1 times.
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If you really want to beat them at their own game, the best thing you can do is refuse to talk to the elders. If you start bringing up facts that conflict with the religion, they will simply not listen to them other than to register that you are a lost cause and disfellowship you. Nothing you can say will make even a dent in their faith unless they are already beginning to question it for themselves (which is highly unlikely if they are coming to reason with you). Of course, some people prefer to go out with a bang, and that can be cathartic, but sometimes it is better to play the long game. If you don't admit to lack of belief, and haven't been caught breaking any JW rules they can't disfellowship you.
Free e-Book: Jehovah's Witnesses - Reasons for Leaving (and for not joining).
Russ.
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Great advice so far.
You might also want to try finding a copy of "Shepherd the Flock of God" online.
That's the elder's manual that outlines how judicial committees should be done. It might be useful to know the rules they're using.
There's a thread in the "Scandals, Coverups, and JW Controversy" section that might have a link to it. If not, try google if you're interested.
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
status offlineHumbleLove
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Welcome to the forum. If you are looking to do more research you can check out http://watchtowerdocuments.org/ There is also www.jw-think.org which also has links to other sites and a link to the PDF file of the book
"Crisis of Conscience," if you are interested in reading that.
I was never a JW myself. But, I agree with everyone here who says you don't need to meet with them if you don't want to. If you choose to meet with them, then do it because you want to. Don't meet with them because they want to try and "reason" with you. All the questions you ask them....you already said yourself they won't have the answers. Are you meeting with them so you can know for sure they don't have the answers to your questions? Or is there some other reason you want to do this?
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Hi, exmarksthespot. Welcome to the forum. Nothing you say or do will make the elders allow you to leave with your dignity. There's no argument, no information, that will convince them you're right. In the Society's eyes, everyone who leaves is at best deluded ('mentally diseased) and at worst selfish and evil. You shouldn't have to explain your reasons for leaving or be put on trial. You do NOT owe the elders anything. If you don't want to meet with them, don't. They can't make you. However you decide to handle this, good luck to you. If you ever need any help or just to vent, we'll be here.
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Welcome X,
But woah...slow down there.
Tell us a bit about yourself first.
You won't get very far by trying to argue with the elders....trust me l was one. They will just refuse to talk and boot you out.
Best not to talk to them as Mak said. Get DF'd and your life might be ruined in the short term. You could be booted out of your family post haste.
Slow down X, slow right down.
Regards Paul
Read my novel Boomshot (18+)
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Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
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To answer everyone I dnt hav a choice about meeting with the elders. I live with my mom and she insists I have to give them a chance. She just doesn't realize I'm not the one who's lost. They are😣
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If you get df'd, will your mom kick you out? You can just tell the elders that your having trouble with your faith, or something even more elusive, and not say anything definitive.
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My mom said she'll kick me out if I don't go to meetings. If I get dfd I'm not gonna go to meetings. I don't feel like lying to the elders I should be able to stand for what I believe in.
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You don't have to lie, but you don't have to spill your guts either. The choice is yours of course, but just be aware that the more rope you give them, the more likely you are to be hanged! If you have somewhere else to go and don't mind losing your family and burning your bridges, give 'em both barrels. But if you want to keep your options open, the less you say, the better (sorry if I used too many metaphors there!).
Free e-Book: Jehovah's Witnesses - Reasons for Leaving (and for not joining).
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It sounds like your mom is the one you most need to reason with...not that she will be reasonable...but appealing to her motherly love which must be buried down in her somewhere.
I don't know your age but if you are under 21 and going to school and dependent on her for a roof over your head you got a problem. I speak from experience, honesty gets you nowhere with jw's so either say very little or lie. Tell her and them that you're just trying to figure some things out and leave it at that OR tell them you have an interview set up with local media to discuss the effects of JW disfellowshipping on families. A young person trying to get an education and being kicked out of home solely for not attending JW meetings should be an interesting topic...
But, if you are in your 20's or 30's and have no job get one! If you are not already contributing to household needs your mom may be just looking for an excuse to boot you. Sorry...but you haven't told us enough of your details to get the whole picture. Whatever the story, it still is so very sad what this sad excuse for a religion does to families.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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Hey there ex. Oh i was in a similar spot with you as regards to my parents threatening to "kick me out" for getting DF'd. Let me tell you it didn't happen! Empty threats and words (just like the elders) will toss at you to scare you back to JW. Remind them and your mother (if applicable) that they had a normal life before JW. Mine couldn't argue with that since they both got married and had their kids before finding JW.
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Thanks everyone I realized I didn't give enough info about my situation. I am still a teen and in college. If I get kicked out life would be really rough. I think maybe I'll tell the elders what I really feel but in a sincere non-dogmatic way. Make it seem like I want there help while present all the evidence for why I just don't believe the religion. Prolly get dfd anyway but maybe my mom won't kick me out if I seem very sincere.
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And remember... always be sincere whether you mean it or not!
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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I would suggest that you immediately speak with the student counselors at your college and explain that you are the victim of religious persecution at home and that it is possible that you might be homeless very soon. They may be able to inform you of emergency funds, student housing, social services, employment, etc., that would make your life easier going forward. Impress on them that this situation is affecting your studies, and that you want to stop the crisis before it causes damage to your grades. Their job is to help you work through issues with the goal of remaining in school and graduating successfully, so they should be willing to help you explore all options. Crossed fingers GOOD LUCK studying
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Exmarksthespot, Cangies suggestions were great! Yes, talk to your student councillors. I hope that they have some ideas that are workable for you. Also, I totally understand your wanting to have an honest discussion with the elders. That would be the NORMAL thing to do. When I left JWs after many years, born in and all that, I felt the same way. If I was asked (I didn't bring it up) I answered with as much information as I could give.
My JW aunt who I loved dearly was the one to really press the point and finally I said, after trying to reason with her, that to go back to the Kingdom Hall would be like going backwards. I couldn't unlearn what I know. Needless to say, she was horrified and that was the last time I spoke to her. That was 13 years ago. As I speak she is lying on her death bed and I can't say goodbye to her just like I couldn't see or talk to my father before he died.
For you, as the years go by, you'll pass milestones in your life...graduation, marriage maybe, babies and the JW family members that should be part of those events will shun you. It may not matter to you now but later...you may regret that discussion you plan with the elders. I know I wish I had never said a word to my JW family members. I wish I could have lied to them
...but I couldn't. Good luck!
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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Hello Ex,
When you were out witnessing what was the hardest objection to overcome? I always found it hard to deal with "I'm just not interested" Most times whatever angle I chose from there to stimulate interest would still be met with "yeah, thanks but I'm just not interested"
Knowing how hard it is to not only counter argue this angle (because there is no real argument or point of view to debate) but also how hard it is to arrive at a conclusion or assumption about motives, it is definitely what I would serve up to the Elders.
"I'ts hard for me to put my finger on it but I'm just not committed/interested and don't really feel the need to address it. Other things are more important to me." I wouldn't let them push me to anything specific.
No doubt your vagueness will frustrate them and you may have to listen to a few scriptures and a bit of a sermon from them but don't let it upset you. Give them NOTHING on which to disfellowship you. BTW if you are fearing being disfellowshipped you must be baptized so have answers ready as to why you got baptized. Wanting to meet their expectation and the families expectation is the reason most teens get baptized.
Wish them well as they leave and say that you are glad that it has meaning for them and is helping them in their lives. It genuinely does meet a great many needs for a large number of those in the congregation.
We make a LIVING by what we get, but we make a LIFE by what we give. -Winston Churchill
Last Edited By: Liezel RD 12 hours ago. Edited 1 times.
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Can we step up the chat here?
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offlinematitalica
Can we step up the chat here?
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We have a great feature here (that we are all paying for) that is called chat. Problem is that there is never anyone on there to chat with. Which is a issue other chat sites have. We all have different time schedules, different time zones, forget the chat feature is there at all, etc. I believe this is a underutilized tool in our ability to help/reach out to those who are going through the fading process, in the know, recovering etc. I also believe this is a neglected tool that we have let fall to the back burner. But please, the moderators here, I love you all, you are my brothers and sisters, but as with any process there will be flaws that will be unseen, and I see the chat feature is a flaw that I would like to contribute my time to help alleviate. Or it may be just a matter of promoting the chat feature more.
Since I'm not a mod, I'm sure there is information that I am unaware of. But just thought I would ask anyway.
Matt
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Yeah, the different time zones do put a limit on some folk's ability to chat.
For me, I don't always have the time to chat. It's easier for me to make a few posts
and then check back later on in the day.
Also, for a while this forum didn't get a lot of traffic so there weren't a lot of folks on the site to chat with.
It seems lately though that we've been getting more people posting, which is great.
Maybe with the increased traffic flow the chat room will start to pick up.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/179443/working_mom.html
status offlineHumbleLove
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I think the best way to get the chat room going is to start hanging out in it more and encouraging people to chat. There are other chat sites for ex-JW's who do have the problem of no one ever being in there. It can be frustrating some times when someone is
looking for someone to chat with and there is no one. This forum is great for support, no doubt about it. But, sometimes a person needs that instant interaction. And chat gives a different kind of interaction than posting in the forum gives.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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And then with people such as me...I'm not going to spend a lot of time trying to figure out how everything works when I can type. So, no one answers immediately...I always get some answers to any thing I might ask.
I say, chat all you want! I'm for for that. Hell, I chat all the time. Sometimes just writing helps me.
I don't do FaceBook either. Whatever happened to the days when people actually wrote something than a fast message where we aren't to say anything personal?
I probably should not say anything because I've never attempted doing the chat...but what the heck, Stuff it that applies to me.
status offlineHumbleLove
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Yes, Facebook...the land of the likes. I am in the chatroom right now because I am trying to be good and finish up my chores...lol. Sounds crazy? Yes, I know that it does. Anyway, in this chat room on this particular site there is the ability to roll dice. And when you
roll the dice it makes a cute noise. In the interest of forcing myself to get the chores done by inventing a new game. I roll the dice several times which is the number of minutes I do chores...and then when I am done I roll the dice again. LOL! So far I have gotten the
dishes done and some ironing. It's working great! image
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Humble, I'm so glad you continue postingwoohooIt's wonderful that any of us have options.
I've also been up in the wee hours doing dishes, laundry, paper work and catering to cats and a husband that needed sit up because of his sinuses. Darn, I'm also busy with social issues...
Anyone that has time for chat makes me think of how many I see driving with their telephone ...and it seems many cannot even go shopping without a telephone attached to their ear. But, hey, I'm an old fart and don't understand all this new technology.
The problem I see [being an old fart] - so many want that connection immediately and lack patience. Patience is not one of my good qualities but I'm learning. Stay connected. We love you. John and Lin
status offlineHumbleLove
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Yes, I think posting and sharing is very good thing. image Yes, it is great that we have so many options. We can chat in the chat room or post here in the forum. And then of course there is the telephone...but who talks on the phone anymore? lol It seems like texting has become the way to go. Yes, there are people who definitely seem to live on the phone 24/7. It is great that technology has given us so many options to stay connected. And the funny thing is there are still people who feel all alone even with all the ways there are to get connected. This forum is great for its support. It's showing people you don't have to feel alone in your thoughts.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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So the problem is...
status offlinematitalica
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Linda wrote:
So the problem is...Not really a problem just thinking of ways to promote the chat room a little more. But there are other chat rooms available to use. I find it pretty cool when I can chat with someone in a different part of the world. And the ability for someone who has a serious problem to be able to chat/nonverbal communication in real time instead of waiting for a response is helpful as well.
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Now I'm really getting confusedargh
Chat "non-verbal" does that mean if I don't write, type or telephone someone I'm not having communication?
Like I say, it's very confusing to me because I write and it's taken me years to understand that sometimes it takes a long time for finding support and I don't depend upon any on system for helping me.
What the heyCounting sheep I'll do it my way and you do it your way and when we meet in the middle it's a good thingCheesy smile twirling
Matt, Sorry if I sounded mean spirited. I'm for anything that helps anyone. I'm just not used to how chat rooms work because I write letters, talk on the telephone. I also come here to post on off times from daily chores; so I'm truly at a loss for any instant conversation. Once again, I do understand why you began this post and hope it helps.
Last Edited By: Linda 5 days ago. Edited 1 times.
status offlineBilly Sugger
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I've been in the chat a couple of times, chatted to someone and can't remember who it was.........my memory isn't so good now I'm old and feeble.........
I generally look at the bottom of the home page see who's online then bob in and see if anyone notices.....
I'm soooooo alone in here......
A big Ahhhhhh, for BillyAndy, going for the sympathy here........
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Not intending to hijack this topic...you gave me a chuckle.
Well, not intending to do such...like I would think you are alone and are old and feeble...please!Stuff itfull moon
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I like the chat room on this site. So far I have had a few good conversations. Linda, if you text message being in the chat room is similar to that. You just type sentences in and hit enter...and then talk back and forth very similar to text messaging.
image
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Sweet! I've been wanting chat to be active as well. I enjoy having one on one or group chats. Maybe we could make a time that would work for most of us.
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I don't know how to use the chat on here. I probably wouldn't use it much anyway, I don't know. I chat on facebook, messaging, that is, while the other person is also on messaging and we write back and forth. But for those I don't know well, I run out of things to talk about. But if the convo was about jw issues, I guess there would be stuff to chat about.
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offlinesummagirl
question for exjws
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When you left the Jehovah's witness cult did you look at your horoscope, watch scary movies, get your fortune told...etc. Were you scared that the demons might enter into your house, like the jws say? I'm just curious.
status offlinematitalica
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I and other jw's did some of those things while we were still in, LOL. The fear of demons entering into our house though was still in the back of our minds; me and a few xjw's I know suffered from this fear after leaving. One of the ways the watchtower keeps you in line is fear. Demons can enter this or that to get to you, etc. The watchtower prays on paranoria, they expect you to be paranoid of everything...worldly people, toys, even crosses or other religious symbols..(which you gotta ask, why would satan or a devil point you towards God if they were trying to point you away from God?).
The watchtower has taken advantage of a humans fear/paranoia. And most humans greatest fear is what is going to happen to them if they are either bad or what will happen to them if they are bad and die. But the watchtower goes psychotic when it teaches fear. Back in the early 80's they even spread the rumor that the cartoon/characters of the Smurfs were demonic.
But the saddest thing I've seen from the watchtower regarding this issue is their dogma that 'religious charities are tools of satan the devil'. They actually believe and teach that homeless shelter, battered womens shelter, homeless child shelter that is run by a religious organization is actually run by satan the devil since satan control's all other religions. They are saying all charitable acts are demonic activity.
Sorry, went off on a tangent. I am a born again Christian, (anyone who wishes to discuss that with me can pm me instead of taking over this thread because you have a problem with me being a Christian). But many of us have different opinions of the belief in demons, satan. I believe they exist, others don't believe they exist. This is when you have to do the research to make up your own mind.
So cut to the chase....if you still believe in God, no demon can come between you and Him, if you don't believe in God, demons entering stuff is just a silly superstition meant on controlling you so you can rest easy.
status offlineLocutus
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I'm an atheist , but I find that I am totally agreeing with Matt! His memories of life in the borg are exact match to my own.
Matt,
My best friend is a' born again' ex-jw. I have no problem with that belief system. You will never convert me, and I would never attempt to convert you. Whatever works...
T
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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When I realized that the 'truth' was a man made interpretation of many interpretations of an ancient book of Jewish stories I was free. Yes, I looked at my horoscope, thoroughly enjoyed dressing up as a witch for Halloween, and I have tarrot cards, Celtic symbols including a Celtic cross decorating my walks, a book of spells...well, you get the picture. I have not had a single poltergeist or sign of evil infestation in my home ever. I also have a couple of Bibles, a Koran, and a book of Tao. No demons, nada. They don't exist unless you believe that they do and then it's just your own wonderful mind conjuring them up.
My opinion and I'm stick in' to it! The most 'demon infestested' people I ever met were the ones that were the most worried about them.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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status offlineJourney
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I didn't find myself in real fear. BUT, I still thought my search for "truth" was on. I felt they didn't have it. I got interested in Buddhism right away. It took me a long time to get past wanting the "rules" and asking for definitions of the afterlife, etc. Then gradually I realized that I was asking totally the wrong questions, and frankly don't need to ask many at all.
But I think that was the only thing, I had gotten so used to strict rules and aiming for the afterlife that I somehow thought that any philosophy or religion I got involved with would have those questions answered.
I was so wrong. I still have spiritual things, but they're personal to me. By that I mean I don't go around shoving my beliefs or thoughts into anyone else's life.
status offlinepunkofnice
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Horoscope - No. Scary Movies - I used to watch them anyway. Fortune told - No. Demons - No. I was never worried about demons anyway....maybe I never really believed in them in the end anyway.
Regards Paul
Read my novel Boomshot (18+)
http://www.amazon.com/Boomshot-Hunt-Killer-Paul-Jackson-ebook/dp/B00VSLG48W/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1428756971&sr=1-1&keywords=boomshot
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
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I was already reading ghost stories and books about the paranormal before I left. On the sly, of course. Incidently, my grandfather was a dowser, sometimes called a water witch. My JW mother was horrified that her father had that gift. He never used his gift for his own gain or for a bad purpose, so I don't see anything 'demonic' about it. I've never tried it myself.
status offlineeewx2
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The first time I tried marijuana I was still in and scared the demons would come. When I decided to leave and told my dad that I had smoked marijuana he said that would expose me to demons. After I left I was no longer afraid of demons. I have watched many scary movies and have read my horoscope. No demons. LOL
status offlineCacky
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I now get the daily paper and read my horoscope. But I think it's silly. I don't take it seriously. I've watched some scary movies, but I'm uncomfortable watching anything that seems really demonic, so I won't. It's that built in fear. I was raised Catholic and they fear demons a bit, too, they're afraid of the wigi board (however you spell it), for example. So I was brought up to fear things like that a bit.
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JW's are hugely superstitious, with their constant focus on seeing "demons" in everyday items. It seems to me that if they truly believed in the power and omnipotence of their god, they would be secure in his protection against "evil spirits." I read my horoscope for fun (although I do not live my life by its predictions) I have had "readings" done and again, I don't live my life by them, but was amazed at how closely they matched my experiences. I don't like scary or violent movies, I have always read whatever I pleased, and I have had witches as friends and business clients. I don't believe in demons or a devil as I think they are primitive people's way of explaining the unknown, and are a convenient excuse (especially for "Christians") to not take responsibility for their own actions. smiley: devil
status offlineauth
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I suspect that demons are afraid of me because they've never bothered me.
It would have been pretty exciting to talk about so that's a shame.
Edit: Just realized my 1300th post is about demons. It is a sign! smiley: eek
smiley: roll
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
status offlineBilly Sugger
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Horoscopes...load of tosh.
Demons.......load of tosh
Scary movies.......not seen one in ages.....
Black Sabbath, Demon, Judas Priest, Helloween, etc etc....love em.
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
status offlinearcanumsea
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The first thing I felt after about a week of being "shunned" was the fog of mind control clearing up. It's been my experience that all their bibble babble about demons only serves to bind the feeble minded to the concept. Thus you have people warning you not to buy stuff at secondhand stores, not to have art in your home that depicts crosses, etc etc. But it's OK for JW family to refuse to speak to you, to ignore their grandchildren and act as if you are dead.
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I did those kinds of things while still technically in, horror movies at least. For the most part, I didn't really fear the demons. When I watched a particularly scary horror movie, I'd have the heebie-jeebies while and after watching(especially while living alone, time to turn every single light in the house on!), but I think that happens to most people, not just JWs/ex-JWs. I guess to me, looking back, it's a sign that I never truly believed in any of this, I just went along with it because it was what I was supposed to do, but it wasn't really ingrained in my heart. I read comments here about other people who've had nightmares about Armageddon and deep-rooted fears of the demons coming to get them, but I never really experienced that.
One time, shortly after being disfellowshipped, while I was still struggling and sorting out my feelings and depression at being shunned, I even prayed out loud to the demons. I asked them to come, give me a sign that they existed, they could do what they wanted with me, I just wanted to know if there was something out there. I was desperate to be given a reason to believe in something, anything... I figured, if the demons were real, then there had to be a God too, even though He had never answered my prayers. So I actually invited the demons into my home, because even if they tormented me for the rest of my life, at least I would know that Jehovah was real and the JWs were right all along. Well, despite my invitation, no demon or anything else showed up to answer my cries, nothing out of the ordinary ever happened, and for me that was one of my realization moments - there is nothing out there. So, no reason to fear demons if I don't believe that they exist, right?
Last Edited By: abby7149 Mar 27 15 1:30 PM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Journey- Just keep keeping up with what helps you. It's that JOURNEY we all take.
It seems many of us take the next foot forward; breaking away from the the dictates of others. Knowing we don't live in fear.
That JW's live in fear and judgement against those of us that continue our journey away from them - I'm sure they live in fear too of what will happen should they leave the religion.
Billy Sugger - I'll catch up with you latersmiley: roll
status offlinejerryjax99
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I did all that still as JW! Never scared me as I always laughed at the idea demons or spirits can "hurt" me. I feel its all a mind game; they can mess with you IF you let them. (JW doctrine 101)
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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summagirl wrote:
When you left the Jehovah's witness cult did you look at your horoscope, watch scary movies, get your fortune told...etc. Were you scared that the demons might enter into your house, like the jws say? I'm just curious.Hi Summa ..... when I first left I was almost 19 years old. I had a good job, was paying off a car and even had a worldly boyfriend! The boyfriend came after I had walked out ... he wasn't the reason I left at all ...... despite what the local jdubs were told or assumed at the time.
I did read my horoscope for a few years after first leaving. I found it fascinating and perhaps a little bit naughty and rebellious (like my voting story in another thread) ...... because I was raised from birth to believe even glancing at a written horoscope could let Satan and his team of tempting demons into my life! I must admit to having a few 'hairy' moments when my childhood indoctrination hit my new found thirst for answers head on.
I do remember a work colleague of mine who was always so very keen to help me swamp myself in 'all things worldly' as she put it ..... so she carted me off with her to the home of a Reverend of the Church of the Mystic Christ, where we both had a psychometry reading done aka an upmarket fortune telling minus the cards. I was even more fascinated and felt even naughtier and more rebellious. My mother had a fit when she found out ... then she back tracked really quickly and asked to listen to the taped reading. She did the raised eyebrows and remained quite calm ........ but she was seething with anger than I'd dared to 'allow Satan into your life' and she was really angry that I'd allowed someone to 'lead you astray so easily'. I reassured her that I was more than capable of leading myself astray!
The scary movie thing? Well that's a different kettle of fish entirely. There are some movies I cannot bring myself to watch no matter what. I'm convinced it's more to do with inbuilt highly indoctrinated fear from being raised in the borg ........ however I am a bit of a scaredy-cat and horror/spooky movies are just not my thing at all.
I can say without a doubt that having windchimes hanging around your house ... be they inside or out ... do NOT bring in wicked spirits, demons or anything else. They DO however sound really great ... specially on windy days eh Janet! smiley: tongue
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineCee Cee
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They had me convinced I was evil, and thrown out into satan's world, so I decided to be worthy of their epithet. It didn't take long to recognize that what they said about me was just as wrong as the rest of their dogma and I reevaluated what was important to me and what I deserved. I enrolled full time in a State University.
I went head over heels into horoscopes (only to discover they stuff published daily was pretty much drivel). For a while I was heavy into to runes; then it was gem stones (LOL, wearing green and hematite to get fast money didn't work any better than the other stuff) and a bunch of other qick fixes. I NEVER did like scary movies--they're scary. I'd rather watch how people solve real problems and got on to where their lives are happier because of it.
Hugs, Cee Cee
status offlineYammerHammer
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I never had any confidence in astrology... it was all bunk. I had a bit of a hard time with movies about the supernatural, but reason finally kicked in and I watched "The Exorcist." It was pure entertainment... even funny. My wife, who is still very active, prevents me from seeing any movies about the supernatural... I don't watch them unless they happen to fall on a meeting night when she's gone.
One really dumb thing I did when I first left... I took up smoking... and smoked for about 10 years. That's something you can't hide very well, my wife knew and I'm sure the folks in the congregation knew. I finally quit on my birthday in 2000.
Not long after leaving, I was able to talk to Ray Franz on the phone a couple of times, and we exchanged a few letters. He was very concerned that with my new found freedom, I would go completely wild, take up drugs, or some other "worldly" vice. I assured him I would not do that, I knew when I left that many people who have lived a tightly controlled life will explode when they feel liberated. I guess I got all of my rebellion out of my system when I was a teenager. I did enough binge drinking and smoking pot when I was in high school, and when I was "in" da troof. Thank god my parents were fairly liberal and dealt with it in a controlled way.
“The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn but to unlearn.” ~ Gloria Steinem
status offlineJoe Magarac
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No to the horoscopes and fortunes tellers, but I was real big on movie going for a while.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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This is a good topic...I don't think I'd add anymore to what's already been said.
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Voting up to the conscience
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offlineCacky
Voting up to the conscience
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I recently saw a post on facebook, when I find it I'll post it here, where it showed a Watchtower article from around 2000 that said voting is up to the Bible trained conscience of the individual. Boy, that and jury duty being up to the conscience is completely different from what I learned when I came in in 1981. It seems they are trying to not antagonize the governments. Yet, they keep their stance on the blood issue and let people die. It's all about what's best for the org, not the people in it.
status offlinesg75
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I think I remember the article you're talking about Cacky. If I recall rightly, this was in response to a situation in (I think) Australia where dubs were being criticized for not voting. BUT anyone who exercised their conscience and voted were considered as having DA'd themselves and were to be shunned. So the message was pretty clear that it was NOT okay to go to the polls. In countries where the law requires everyone to vote dubs were supposed to go the polls and write something like 'Jehovah' or 'Jesus' on a ballot. (Can't do that around here with our electronic voting machines.) I first registered to vote in 2000 while I was still pretending to be a dub. I knew dang well I would be shunned if I got caught but I was through letting other people tell me I couldn't exercise my right to vote. I get so mad at my dub family because they're always whining about laws they don't like. If you don't vote, you have no right to complain!
status offlineauth
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The "up to conscience" phase is interesting. First, it implies that some things are not left up to the conscience (like whether to cut off all contact with a DF'ed child).
So basically your conscience is a switch to be turned on or off at the command of the governing body like you're a trained animal being told to sit or stand.
Secondly, people who are given very little leeway in personal decisions are very likely to look to the source of all their other commands to decide whether to do things that are "up to conscience".
Since most of the things that get "up to conscience" status were once banned or spoken against it's pretty obvious what diehard jdubs will do.
But there is the upside that people who already have one foot out can take the bad path on conscience matters without worrying about getting official punishment.
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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There's a really good link about the voting thing and jdubs in JW Facts .... you can read it HERE ......
When I was still in ... voting was a most definite no. It was yet another obvious method for Jehovah's Witnesses to stand out from everyone else. We all know how much the WBTS likes to stand out. It seems to be one of those 'relaxed' doctrines now. Typical. Gotta keep the punters interested I guess.
I've never personally spotted a jdub I've known in any of the polling booths I've worked in (years ago) nor voted in myself since I was 19 (I'm pushing 53 now). I remember walking into my first polling booth with a sense of purpose and I think a whole slice of rebellion on the same plate. It felt really naughty to vote ....... and for someone without a past and who walked out rather than was kicked out of the religion ...... it was kind of nice to feel naughty for a change!
Personal conscience decision or not ...... general consensus would be NOT to vote. Not as a show of dedication to the great Jehovah himself .... but because people wouldn't want to be seen outside or in a polling booth for fear of what the rest of 'the brothers' would think!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinevinman
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I served as an elder for 12 years. Just because the Wt. says it is a conscience matter, doesn't mean it actually is. They are misleading people. Much like saluting the flag. We are told that we need to say it is a personal decision not to salute. However, saluting the flag is a disfellowshipping offence. The elders book talks about many disfellowshipping offences including voting, that are not shared with the "rank and file".
status offlineHumbleLove
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So, voting isn't up to the conscience then. It is a disfellowshipping offence. If people are told it's up to them....it's followed up by "listen to your conscience" right? Or "what would Jesus do?"
status offlinesg75
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Wow, vinman. I never knew growing up that I could be disfellowshipped for saluting the flag. I knew I wasn't supposed to do it, but never really thought about it otherwise.
status offlinevinman
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I know the elders got a new book. Maybe it has changed. But I find it hard to believe that you can vote and be considered politically neutral. Imagine if everyone in a cong. voted. Politics would be the talk of the town. Something is wrong here. Remember in Bulgaria they told the government blood transfusions were a personal choice. But all they did was change it from a disfellowshipping to a disassociation offence, with the same consequences.
status offlineHumbleLove
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Blood transfusions is definitely a big no-no in the JW. What is your stance on it now? Or is it too soon for you to have an opinion about that doctrine?
status offlinevinman
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After everything I've studied, including the Bible, I threw out my Medical Directive card.
"Abstain from blood ". That is one law. Yet the WTBTS has an entire committee for it. Sounds like pharisees. I also read the site AJWRB. You can't defend the Watchtower after reading that. In addition, I have come to a real appreciation for the word conscience. Anything that " goes beyond the things written" is WATCHTOWER POLICY . When you are in the organization you can't differentiate policy and scripture.
I think what really did it for me was finding a list of all the changes to the policy. Why would you put your very life in the hands of a few men who don't even know what up or down is? Blood fractions was a disfellowshipping offence. Now, not so much. Really? If tomorrow they said blood transfusions were fine, every person would get rid of their card. It just goes to show that we've followed men, not Christ.
status offlineHumbleLove
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So, if tomorrow there was new light...that said blood transfusions are fine....every person would get rid of their card. Would it really be that easy? You don't think there would be some JW's that would say...hey wait a minute? I don't think it's acceptable, I don't think we
should get blood transfusions. Or is it really as simple as changing the rule? Yes, the JW religion has been more about following the GB, the watchtower policy...than following Christ.
I myself am all for blood transfusions. They are known for saving lives...yes all procedures can have their problems. But, I still think overall they do way more good than harm.
status offlineCacky
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Humble, I read somewhere that jw women have the same mortality rate in childbirth as women in third world countries. Some would continue to abstain from blood even if they changed the stance to being up to the conscience, the diehard ones, but the majority would be relieved.
status offlineHumbleLove
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Cacky, That's not a very good mortality rate being compared to third world countries. It's interesting to know that the majority would be relieved if they were allowed blood transfusions. This must mean that there is plenty of doubts in this one area. Any one dealing
with health problems is already dealing with added stress. It would be great if one day (I know this is just pure hope of course) that the blood doctrine flip flopped to totally allowing blood transfusions, thus removing some stress of wondering to oneself..."What am I
allowed to do?", "What should I do, I want to get the blood transfusion but fear losing my family by being shunned?" It's such a tough struggle.
It would be great if the answer to the question was always...."What medical procedures do I have to choose from for my condition....and then the choice to choose from all that's available."
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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A pregnant woman died this week in Sydney Australia ..... I have added a copy of the news article in the Jehovah's Witnesses in the News part of the board ..... it's alongside a whole heap of similar stories. The blood issue has long been a divisive topic for many average jdubs. My parents staunchly refused a blood transfusion twice for my mother .... and towards the end of her life last year, I know that they had yet again signed the no blood directive and had it witnessed by a local elder. I've seen first hand what happens when an average jdub publisher is facing 'the blood issue' ....... and in my mum's case, the local elders swooped in to make sure she didn't give in to her doctor's requests. I know without at doubt and have mentioned many times in here ... that if any of my siblings or myself were in need of a life saving blood transfusion when we were under the age of 18 ............ my parents would have refused on our behalf. My dad is 78 this year and even though he has been vilified by his religious cronies ... he would refuse a transfusion and has ticked all the little boxes he needs to tick on his no blood directive form. It's sad.
We don't salute the flag here in Australia ... at least not that I'm aware of ....... however when I was growing up, if the kids at a school assembly were asked to stand for the National Anthem ...... my parents suggested we stand but not sing and not bow our heads for any school prayers. We were at a public school but some still have prayers. My parents believed it was a sign of respect for the government of our country that we stood ... and a sign of respect for Jehovah God that we didn't sing the National Anthem. Other jdub parents were far more militant and told their kids to stay seated. They were the parents who encouraged their kids to witness to other students at school too ..... not something my parents ever pushed.
A lot of 'conscience' things are frowned on and can become a disfellowshipping or disassociating offence .................. it all has to do with interpretation of the bible but more so of the elder's Shepherding The Flock of God handbook too. Luckily there have been a few elders and others who have carefully scanned the most recent of handbooks ..... then added them to the internet. The WBTS has managed to shut some of the copies down ..... but they are still floating about!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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So, voting isn't up to the conscience then. It is a disfellowshipping offence. If people are told it's up to them....it's followed up by "listen to your conscience" right? Or "what would Jesus do?"
Yep, there would be a lot of guilt laid on people that did do it.
Not only that, but even if you weren't disfellowshipped,
other JWs would take it upon themselves to shun you on some level.
You might not be invited to social gatherings, you wouldn't be given any privileges in
the congregation, etc.
You would fall into the unofficial category of being labeled "not spiritual",
and anyone who did associate with you would be put in that same category.
And again, people who are considered "not spiritual" aren't given
privileges in the congregation, aren't invited to social gatherings, etc. etc.
Basically, when the elders say "It's up to a person's conscience"
What that means in JWspeak is:
"You can't do this but we want it to seem like you have a choice." smiley: eyes
http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/179443/working_mom.html
Last Edited By: palmel1234 Apr 8 15 10:27 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineHumbleLove
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Basically, when the elders say "It's up to a person's conscience"What that means in JWspeak is:
"You can't do this but we want it to seem like you have a choice." image
The choice being...if you do....whatever it is......be prepared to get reprimanded! I vote at every single election. I know people who just vote on the Presidential election. The funny thing is it seems like people who DON"T vote or vote very little complain the loudest
about how things are. I always say...well if you don't like it....vote. In America if you are registered to vote than you will get called for jury duty. I know this is an excuse as to why some people don't want to register to vote. But, really jury duty more often than not
doesn't last very long. Are you really willing to give up the FREEDOM to vote just because of jury duty? If that is the case for some, there are plenty of ways to help change things even if you don't vote. But, I think voting is important so I vote at every election.
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You know, I tried to look like a good JW. But the truth is, if one of my children or husband needed a transfusion, they'd have gotten one. When I was fading, I needed a hysterectomy. I was anemic and was bleeding about 27 days out of the month. To prepare me for surgery the doctor gave me some heavy duty, prescription iron pills to take. He knew of the JW stand on blood. He asked me if I would agree to having my own blood. I did! If they'd found out, I'd have been DF'd right then, even though I was nearly faded out.
So, I took the iron until my blood was strong enough to donate one pint. I donated, felt weak for a couple of days, then after a while, forgot how long, Not long, he said it was time to do the surgery. Maybe a couple of weeks.
Anyway, I did need that transfusion. And I probably could have used more, but the point was to get me up to where I could live. When I woke up, I felt "flat". Just flat. One pint wasn't enough, but it helped and the doctor said I'd already begun rebuilding my blood.
And speaking of 3rd world countries. He told me that if I lived in one, I would die of that bleeding eventually. It would just get worse.
My life was given back to me after that hysterectomy. And I don't regret that transfusion. I would never apologize to the WTS for having it either.
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We are glad you made that decision, Journey. It's good to have you with us.....Hug Pals
status offlinematitalica
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I think you'll notice just about every watchtower article that deals with a conscience issue, they will put up a bunch of scriptures alluding to the governing boobies dislike and disapproval of the subject and every time the last paragraph will tell the jw to make sure they consult the bible as the ultimate authority on the issue and to use the their bible trained conscience to make a decision. So with the nitpicking of scriptures and the god like status of the governing boobies, any conscience decision a jw must make must be made by the conscience of the governing boobies, not the individual.
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When the student appears, the teachers will come.
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offlinelast generation
When the student appears, the teachers will come.
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When the student appears, the teachers will come. In all the years I was a witness, I saw the apostates with their signs, “What happen to 1975” walking and shouting around the convention sites. I saw planes flying above the convention with banners, “1975 and No End”
A few times in field service, I ran into a couple of apostates who wanted to show me some old Watchtower magazines of supposed false predictions. But what did I care, I just ignored them.
The book, “30 years a Watchtower Slave” made its debut in our hall. I thought to myself, “Why would I trust someone who needed 30 years to figure out he was on the wrong path?” I never heard of that book again until now.
What was the result of all these encounters? _________NOTHING!
Not one single trace of doubt. Not even a small remnant of suspicion. Why? Because when things are working smoothly, there is no need or inclination to change; no matter what evidence or truths you can show me.
It’s not that we are stupid; it’s just that we can’t go around all our lives being suspicious of everyone and everything and making changes here and there and disrupt our whole family. We “Allow” for a few mistakes in our life” We don’t expect perfection. Plus, that’s just not a very good way to live unless you are in a war zone.
As the ride of life continued, I started reasoning that some of the counsel given by the organization wasn’t making sense. Perhaps when I was younger it made sense. But it’s possible that at some point in life, even when things are going good, a person’s reasoning skills start developing enough to see past the seemingly good working order of the organization. And that time had arrived. So the “nudges” start, and slowly I start to wake up.
“Higher Education is wrong” Wow, that just didn’t seem like good advice.
“Overlapping Generation” Wooo!, we just created a new word.
“Blood Fractions are acceptable” Ok, this is now getting crazy.
“Elder appointed who had been disfellowshipped twice for sleeping with married sisters” OK enough is enough.
It was at this point that I became the student and plenty of teachers showed up.
Free-minds was my first apostate site that I visited. It was all downhill from there.
If a JW is not ready to become a student, it does not matter how much evidence you show them, it does not matter how good your reasoning skills are, it does not matter what you do. Because unless they are ready to become the student, there is nothing you can do to wake them up. That has been my experience in trying to wake up a JW to TTATT. The ones that I have helped awaken, they were already on their way out. They would have done it without me.
Has that been your experience?
Last Edited By: last generation Apr 8 15 12:51 PM. Edited 1 time.
status offlineCacky
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I would think most of us on this board would agree with that. That's been our experience with trying to help our loved ones, they reject it whole heartedly.
status offlinevinman
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Amen last generation. The real issue is the foundation. No 1914=No 1919=No Watchtower Society telling the truth. If new ones were taught about 1919 and our history with it's drug trip type teachings, no one would become a JW. 1919 is one of those "deep" teachings you learn after baptism. Too late. Now you are drowning.
I never knew Russell did not originate 1914. He borrowed it from Second Adventists, Barbour. Yet even the latest videos show Anthony Morris shake his head and basically say it was amazing how they knew about that year. It is sad that you and I have to be a Wt. historian/sociologist to be able to connect the dots and figure out what they are hiding. What is an apostate website? It is simply the complete index that the Watchtower did not want to give us!
We do not even have access to information for the "most important " times in history, 1914,1919. The Index book starts at 1930. If it started with the first Wt. printed, you and I would have been out long ago. Of course, they knew that.
status offlinepalmel1234
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If a JW is not ready to become a student, it does not matter how much evidence you show them, it does not matter how good your reasoning skills are, it does not matter what you do. Because unless they are ready to become the student, there is nothing you can do to wake them up. That has been my experience in trying to wake up a JW to TTATT. The ones that I have helped awaken, they were already on their way out. They would have done it without me.
Very good point, Last Generation.
I've learned that people only change when THEY want to.
And sometimes it seems the harder you try to change their minds, the harder they push against you.
I don't know of any person that has left the JWs because someone was able to say the perfect argument to them,
or show them some special evidence. It was always something they came to realize on their own,
slowly over time they began to question.
My questioning began almost as soon after I was baptized at age 11.
I really began to doubt there was a God, and if there was one, he was a pretty fucked up deity
that to me did not deserve my worship.
I resented how women in the organization were pushed to secondary status in the congregation.
We couldn't become elders or ministerial servants. We weren't allowed any privileges in the congregation.
I thought it wasn't right how we did the bait and switch on newcomers,
how we were very careful to present one image to the outside world, and kept our dirty laundry in-house.
I noticed the caste system in the congregation, how certain families were given high status
in the congregation, and how those that were considered "not spiritual" were looked down on.
But I was careful to keep my thoughts to myself.
As I became a teen, I realized that I was going to have to do a fade.
Unfortunately, my sins caught up to me before I could do that and I was disfellowshipped at age 18, LOL.
Even so, I still didn't think it was a cult. It took many years before I slowly realized that was what the JWs are.
Doing research and finding this site helped me a lot.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/179443/working_mom.html
status offlinebirdwoman2
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vinman: The real issue is the foundation. No 1914=No 1919=No Watchtower Society telling the truth. If new ones were taught about 1919 and our history with it's drug trip type teachings, no one would become a JW. 1919 is one of those "deep" teachings you learn after baptism.
Vinman, you may be interested in reading this thread here:
The Year 1919 and the Mystical Number 7.
The most significant thing that happened during 1919 is that it was the year that the WTS purchased their own printing presses. That "appointment from God" was simply the ownership and control of 'the word'.
“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”
- Susan B. Anthony
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Personal Messages PM
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Just thought that it may be helpful, especially to new ones, on how certain things work in the area of "Settings" and other info particularly on personal messages. How to recognize if you have one and how to get notifications.
If you have a message the "NAVIGATION" box on the right upper corner will be lit up and the 'envelope' on the left upper place will contain a number as to how many messages you have. You can click on that and then the message to see the message.
Also in "Settings" under "Notifications" you can set things up in a way that Yuku can send you an email to notify you that a message has been sent to you. This to me is important because I always check my email but may not come on board every day and can miss a message if I only depend on seeing it when I log in.
Also keep in mind that the members here are in many different time zones and your message may not be answered immediately. The person may be asleep as it is night-time in their zone.
If all this doesn't make sense one of the administrators can explain it better. You can control what others see or not and other things in the settings.
“The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen nor even touched—
They must be felt with the heart.”
Helen Keller
status offlineHumbleLove
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I thought you explained that quite well. image Now if there can just be an explanation why doing laundry isn't more interesting than reading posts on the forum...lol.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Laundry is most definitely repetitive ... boring ... and never ending Humbley. No explanation needed! haha
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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So what am I supposed to do?
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status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Yammer and others...good replies.
Welcome JJ helloto a society of some believe the Bible to be total truth and others that have a different opinion.
What are you supposed to do? ...Live your life not based upon what others think you should. Many of us here have lived the "heathen" life and yet we would find recovery from religious abuse...abuse that often comes from religion.
It's about taking baby steps and research...once it begins, it sometimes seems for me, it never ends because someone is telling you what you should do - when in fact, you already know the answer - you just might like the answer.
Stay strong and do continue posting. Love, Lin
status offlineTain
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Hi JJ,
Welcome! I am new here, too.
I read "Crisis of Conscience" as well and it was very enlightening. It's one of the reasons why I quit going to meetings after 35 years. Other reason is the hypocrisy that I saw.
The members have given you great advice. Keep plugging away and do your research. It really helps!
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Hi and thank-you. Yes I say think about what is reasonable. Does this make sense? People do research. Of course we have the choice now whether to accept it or only partly. We can ask is there a hidden agenda here? We don't have to feel bad if we do question things. Like we are questioning God. We can recognize that it is people making a guess based on what? Is it good research? We don't have to take it just because it comes down from the chain of command. We don't have to turn ourselves into a pretzel to try to make it a fit for us. We don't have to be resentful or angry as we can walk away from something that just doesn't make sense. We are not "dedicated" to an organization but can owe our allegiance to only the truth or a compassionate belief system that is not regulated by hard-hearted, self-righteous, deluded people.
status offlineLocutus
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Welcome jjdupri!
You have received much good advice here. I would add that you may need to challenge and conquer your own faith based 'no go' zones to move beyond your current situation. There's no easy answers, and we are not here to 'tickle your ears' .
status offlinematitalica
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"I told him that I felt that the information published was obviously written by imperfect men and not by Jehovah. He told me that I was heading for a dangerous situation with my thinking."
That is very dangerous thinking, this is how the Roman Catholic Church believed and taught as they carried on their inquisitions and genocides. For a long time people were not allowed to think any differently, were not even allowed to voice an objection or even read the bible. Just like jw's, no one jw is allowed to have a dissenting thought and you can't read the bible by itself.
You might look at checking out some non denominational events, sermons etc. Get out of the mindset that all other religions are controlled by satan. A lot of their services are really fun and a positive experience.
But with your wife still in it's going to make it harder to just fade and leave. You said have talked to her about it and she was ok with the questions you were asking? Maybe she might be thinking some of the same things and you too could sort of fade together so you both will have some support set up?
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Welcome jjdupri!
You have received a lot of good thoughts but eventually it will come down to you going through the process. Just like learning any field and getting good at it, It Will Take time. You can’t be a good surgeon in a year. There are no shortcuts.
The best thing for you is to keep cool, try not to get to excited and depressed and start researching, researching, and more researching. Little by little the pieces start falling into place. You are going to go through pain, and more pain. As you start learning more about the WT and the Bible you will start going through all kinds of feelings and emotions. Perhaps even despair. But little by little you will see light at the end of the tunnel. The trick is to realize that the learning process takes time and effort. But you will get there. Hundreds of thousands are learning about the WT and have successfully landed on their feet.
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Thanks so much for all of the encouragement. This experience can be mentally exhausting. I have confidence that everything will be fine eventually. My wife is such a go with the flow type, not questioning anything. It's annoying at times. She has admitted to me that she thinks some teachings are questionable, but still believes it is God's chosen people. I asked her if she knew she could be disfellowshipped for thinking that, she didn't have a reply. From what she tells me, people out in Cali go against what the society says to do all of the time, no big deal. I really don't know how this is all going to pan out, with her still being an active believer. I'm confident that most of the congregation has decided to limit their association with us, (because of me), and this is hard for her. She came from a huge congregation in California and is used to having lots of friends. It doesn't bother me as much. I never bonded with any of my parents, I've gone years at a time without even speaking to them. To lose them wouldn't really bother me. The only one that would hurt would be losing my sister and her children. My little nephew has Down's Sydrome. I love him so much, he's so sweet and fun to be around.
I've always been a person of integrity though, and I don't think I can fake this much longer. I'm worried about my wife though. I wonder if I just disassocaiate myself, if the congregation would feel more free to be around her, with no obligation to invite me. I don't care if she wants to keep going. I think we can still have a happy, healthy marriage, at least I hope. She moved across the country to be with me, and I feel bad. I know she didn't expect this. However, I made it clear to her that I had reservations before we were married. I just want her to be happy, even if it means leaving me.
Last Edited By: jjdupri 4 days ago. Edited 1 times.
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I know some people's marriages have not survived a spouse "waking up" but others have and, in some cases, they both ended up leaving the organization.
I think the webmaster of jwsurvey.org eventually left with his wife.
Sometimes the period during which one was in and the other was out lasted years.
If you think your marriage can survive it, it probably will. You know your wife.
It's such an exhausting situation. The rules of the religion are definitely designed to make leaving painful.
Wishing you all the best.
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have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
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Hi jjdupri,
Welcome to the site.
I was also married to some-one who was a go with the flow kind of person - they say we are attracted to opposites. And I am the polar opposite of that -I have always been prepared to look at what the evidence reveals whether I like it or not and make the necessary adjustments whether it is difficult or not. Whilst I did not look at external evidence I trusted the Bible and was "always ready to make a defence before everyone that demands a reason for the hope in you (me) but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect" Brackets mine. 2 PET 3:15
Then, like with you a time came when I looked further afield but I approached it from the same perspective of looking everything straight in the eye. When I had been out witnessing this was what I had always encouraged the householder to do so I could do no less. I do believe that this is easier to do for people that have less emotional entanglements and since there is not a strong bond with your parents this may be easier for you than for others raised in this faith. At the end of the day the weight of evidence made the shift in belief for me despite this not being what I wanted to happen - I had after all chosen this religion out of a careful search of other fundamental religions so I did not want my search and research to be in vain - I did not want all the years to be in vain. Everyone has their own reasons for not wanting change but I believe the common denominator is because we do not want to move out of our comfort zone since life is short and restructuring takes time with trauma added. On the other hand resisting change when we see the facts in front of us has a poisonous effect. If we keep on denying and denying and we become like those in the world who we used to accuse when we said that their consciences are deadened. Remember the searing of the flesh examples.
In the weigh up of the 2 choices I long ago decided to accept difficult facts with joy, embrace the change and traumas and reap the rewards that went along with an honest mind and a new perception, and a clearer view of the road ahead. This is what I wish for you.
BTW none of the Bible writers lied when they spoke about conditions in the world. My own experience has taught me that the world is in fact much worse than the Bible writers and the JW interpretation ever presented. I have peeled away so many onion layers. The world situation makes clear sightedness so much more important so that on a personal level we and those we care about can make the most of the few short years we are given. My most important discovery though was on a wider level. I (and that means you too) could affect change for the better in the community around me (you) and that I had personal power - despite needing guidance - and that whilst I had completely relied on God to make changes, God was in fact shaking me up to realize that He needed me to be active in making those changes needed in the world.
Let your light shine in all it's honesty and purity.
We make a LIVING by what we get, but we make a LIFE by what we give. -Winston Churchill
Last Edited By: Liezel RD 3 days ago. Edited 1 times.
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jjdupri:
I'm worried about my wife though. I wonder if I just disassociate myself, if the congregation would feel more free to be around her, with no obligation to invite me. I don't care if she wants to keep going. I think we can still have a happy, healthy marriage, at least I hope. She moved across the country to be with me, and I feel bad. I know she didn't expect this. However, I made it clear to her that I had reservations before we were married. I just want her to be happy, even if it means leaving me.
jjdupri, I can see how difficult this is for you but I think you are capable to handle it. Don't rush, think things through carefully. There are more things going here than just one or two and they all are important. It is not only the doubts you have and the realization where all this can lead you to. You have a wife and are concerned how all that will effect her as well.
My husband was in a similar position as he was the first to spot all the inconsistencies, it did not take him long to figure a lot of things out. He was ready to break out quite fast. I was not the same, I grew-up with the beliefs--he didn't--so he had clearer sight. It was all my life, I knew little of anything else.
Initially I went along with him though. We did leave that congregation but still went occasionally to other congregations. We were in some kind of neutral state of mind, at least I was, in limbo, trying to figure things out, there was confusion, disgust, but also a reluctance to actually be final. There were no websites to visit at that time--we had to figure it out on our own.
So we carried on that way for sometime. We were not in the same town as most of my relatives so they were not aware of these things. Although we did meet with my brother, an elder, and tried to discuss it with him in the hopes that he may have some useful advice. We left unsatisfied with rather uninterested advice.
Things turned around when I realized I was pregnant with our first child. Now I had to think more seriously about what to do with our future and the future of our child. It is very hard for me to write this--but sadly we went back! I don't think hubby was too eager but did not want to rock the boat.
However, from that time forward, I paid much stronger attention as to what was being said and done. I was there to make very sure before I acted. I do not feel happy to tell you it took me another twelve years, and two more children, to be absolutely certain what I wanted to do. When I slammed the KH door that last day I had no doubts whatsoever!!
That is when our real life began. I wish I could have seen it sooner, but I am so glad that I finally did when I did.
I sincerely wish that your wife will not take that long to see through them. I am sending you good wishes for a joyful ending.
“The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen nor even touched—
They must be felt with the heart.”
Helen Keller
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So what am I supposed to do?
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offlinejjdupri
So what am I supposed to do?
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Apr 3 15 7:02 AM
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I became a witness in 2010, despite questions that remained unsatisfactorily answered. I hoped and still hope that someday everything would be made clear to me someday. In the beginning, I kept my studies only to the organizations publications. I began to notice inconsistencies and almost contradictory information. I expressed my concerns to an elder, who I somewhat felt was a friend, assuming that our conversation was confidential. I began to realize that you can't confide in an elder in confidence. I told him that I felt that the information published was obviously written by imperfect men and not by Jehovah. He told me that I was heading for a dangerous situation with my thinking. After being called to a couple of elders meetings, not initiated by me, I realized I couldn't talk to anyone without others being involved.
I have read almost half of the book "Crisis of Conscience". Many of the feelings of doubt that developed in me just from studying the recent publications seem to have been completely confirmed. Some of the revelations in this book are simply staggering.
So what do I do? Where do I go? My whole family is witnesses. I do believe in the bible.
The world conditions that Jesus spoke of in Matthew chapter 24 seem to be in full effect. I pray for guidance.
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Apr 3 15 8:35 AM
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Jjdupri, yep, you are going through it. By "it" I mean trying to reconcile your ability to think critically, which you obviously are doing, and the entire familial and social structure you have acquired by becoming a Witness. It is frightening. It's also liberating... and you will have to ask yourself if you want to be true to yourself or play the game of feigning belief and enthusiasm.
"To thine own self be true" (Shakespeare). If you accept the Witness explanation of original sin, that by partaking of the fruit Adam and Eve were determining for themselves what is right and what is wrong, you might also be dealing with some guilt that because you see things differently, you are committing the original sin all over again. When it comes right down to it, even if we accept another person's moral code, and choose to live by it no matter what else we may reason to be right, aren't we still choosing for ourselves what is right and wrong? You no doubt answered the questions posed at your baptism. You made a choice and answered in the affirmative. You made a choice. You decided for yourself what is right and wrong, good and evil. Given the explanation of the original sin, we are ALL guilty, no matter what decision we made, no matter what religion we followed... if we choose to follow any religion at all.
You say you still believe the Bible... but whose explanation do you accept? How much of your belief in the Bible does not follow the Witness interpretation? They claim the Bible interprets itself... but it does not. For every differing explanation of what certain verses mean, you will find there are other explanations that make sense.
As for world conditions foretold in Matthew 24, think again. Have we not always experienced those conditions down through history? Wars, famine, disease, events in the "heavens?" When you dig into history a little, you'll find that as horrible as World War 1 and 2 were, there were many other wars we have not been told about in the Society's literature that were far more devastating if we take into account the percentage of those killed to the total population of the earth. One Chinese revolution claimed nearly 25% of the world's population. Many others were nearly as bad. By comparison, WW1 and WW2 claimed only 2 or 3 percent of the population.
Modern medical advances have eliminated some of the most horrible diseases known to man. Our life spans now approach 80 years on average, compared to maybe 45 or 50 years 100 years ago. During "this generation" our life spans have nearly doubled. Many diseases have been eradicated, smallpox, polio, measles, let's not forget the Bubonic Plague that claimed nearly 30% of the people in the middle ages. (Those folks lived "long lives" if they made it to 35). It's true that we still face many horrible problems if we are to survive as a species.
At any rate, I think your struggle right now has more to do with the social structure you have around you, and how important that is to you versus what you are finding out about "the truth." Remember also that "the truth" is subject to change for these people... what might be "true" now will not be "true" in a few years. Recent examples: "the faithful and discreet slave." Instead of trying to reconcile the growth of the "remnant class" with the explanation of the F and D slave, they have merely changed the definition of the term. Problem eliminated. Instead of "one generation" being of 70 or 80 years, they have merely changed the definition of "one generation" by now saying it is made up of "overlapping" generations. I have yet to find that explanation in the Bible. The Governing Body changes a definition and suddenly, there is no problem with the way things have turned out. Shouldn't this old system have been gone by 1994 (80 years since 1914)? In what year did they change the definition of "this generation?" 1994. Hmmmm.
At what point do we find ourselves following a few men in New York rather than allowing our "God given" powers of reasoning to determine the truthfulness of these men? When do we stop seeing this religion as the only true religion and realize they are really no different than any other Christian religion? Are Witnesses REALLY better people on average than "worldly" people? Do they alone deserve to survive Armageddon when there are so many other good people around us?
I wish you well, you will find a lot of good reasoning here, along with some real bitterness for having wasted lives and ruining families due to this organization's treatment of people at the hands of some of the jokers that make up the body of elders.
Whatever happens, ask yourself what your fear is about. Don't be afraid to make up your own mind, because no matter what you decide in the end, you have no other choice than to decide for yourself.
Yammer.
“The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn but to unlearn.” ~ Gloria Steinem
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Apr 3 15 9:01 AM
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I can't disregard the bible. There are too many proven historical accounts. It doesn't matter what religion you are in, the bible despite different translations, the basic important fundamental information remains the same. How can a book written over thousands of years continue to be written over and over, and not be changed. Because God won't let that happen.
I can't help but think of the scripture in 2nd Peter 3:3 when people say that there has always been wars, etc: -First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.”
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Apr 3 15 9:03 AM
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"To thine own self be true" (Shakespeare). If you accept the Witness explanation of original sin, that by partaking of the fruit Adam and Eve were determining for themselves what is right and what is wrong, you might also be dealing with some guilt that because you see things differently, you are committing the original sin all over again. When it comes right down to it, even if we accept another person's moral code, and choose to live by it no matter what else we may reason to be right, aren't we still choosing for ourselves what is right and wrong? You no doubt answered the questions posed at your baptism. You made a choice and answered in the affirmative. You made a choice. You decided for yourself what is right and wrong, good and evil. Given the explanation of the original sin, we are ALL guilty, no matter what decision we made, no matter what religion we followed... if we choose to follow any religion at all.
Interesting way of looking at it. From that perspective, even if they had chosen not to eat the fruit they would still have been determining for themselves that they'd rather not eat it. So then the "original sin" is the crime of NOT being an automaton. It is the crime of having the the ability to reason on alternatives. It is the crime of having any will at all.
jjdupri wrote:
So what do I do? Where do I go? My whole family is witnesses. I do believe in the bible.
Those are very good questions.
I'm sure that without the shunning policy and the fact that your whole family are witnesses the answer would be a lot easier.
So as Yammer said, it's really the social structure that you have around you that makes you fearful of doing what makes sense to you.
This is by design. If GB could issue "new light" tomorrow that ends the current shunning policy. They won't.
Only you can decide what you can afford to lose and therefore how to navigate the process of leaving the religion.
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
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jjdupri wrote:
I can't help but think of the scripture in 2nd Peter 3:3 when people say that there has always been wars, etc: -First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.”
When will the timeframe of applicability of that scripture run out? The year 2200, 2300? If someone says, in 2500, that there have always been wars will they be considered ridiculers or would it be a reasonable observation that nothing extraordinary has happened?
Note that the same collection of books says at Ecclesiastes 1:9-10
That which has been is that which will be, And that which has been done is that which will be done. So there is nothing new under the sun. Is there anything of which one can say, "Look! This is something new"? It was here already, long ago; it was here before our time.
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
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jjdupri wrote: wrote:
So what do I do? Where do I go? My whole family is witnesses. I do believe in the bible.
Hi jjdupri Welcome to the forum
image
How are you doing? I know contemplating the big questions can often lead to more questions. I came here myself in the search for answers. I never was JW, but I am a Christian. I understand your concerns in the relationship to Matthew Chapter 24.
The big question I think you are really wondering about is what do I do? If you don't mind I would like to re-word it just a little bit. to What do I "want" to do? instead of just "what do I do." This might help you find the answers that you are looking for.
You don't say if you are married or not. There's also the fact whether or not the other members of your family live in the same household as you (don't have to be married obviously to share a residence.) I know that just automatically attending another church would
be an issue for your other family members. Is your decision right now to slowly fade away? If that's the case and you are NOT married and you do share a residence with family members who are still witnesses. You might want to consider getting a place of your own.
If you are married, then that comes with a new set of questions.
Do you have friends outside the JW religion? You haven't been a member for very long. You said since 2010, but you may have given up your friends when you decided to become JW.
I would first ask myself....what do I "want" to do. Some people prefer to fade out, others just walk out. This is also based on whether or not you were baptized. Your family will view your decision to leave the JW's more unfavorable usually is you are baptized. I don't
know what your family's reaction will be. Every family is different. I think a good question to ask yourself would be...."How would my family react to my leaving....what steps do I think should take so it's not quite the shock." Is the fade the best way to go for you?
If your plan is to start attending another church....I suggest trying lots of them. Find the path that works for you.
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Apr 3 15 11:21 AM
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I am married. I was raised as a witness but left as a teen, came back when I was 30. I am blessed with an open minded and wonderful wife. Without her, I don't know if I'd get through this. Besides the people on this forum, she's the only one I've talked to. She is still an active witness, but understands why I feel the way I do. She is more of a "go with the flow" type, whereas I want an answer and an explanation for everything. I have a tendency to over analyze, sometimes I drive myself crazy thinking about things.
This issue needs to be resolved for me, thoughts about what I should do invade my mind on a daily basis. Most of the congregation has limited their association with me, I have not been in field service or attended a mid week meeting in a couple years. I have my own business, I think that most of them think that I have just let my business become priority. That is not the problem though, I could easily turn down work, we are in a good financial situation.
I guess the answer is that I want to do what God wants me to do, even if it means a harder and miserable life in this world. I do believe this world as we know is temporary, and that God will bless faithful people.
I told my wife that if the JW's would just quit claiming that God's holy spirit directs the organization, admit the mistakes they've made, accept responsibility for the effects on people's lives, I could more easily go along with it. Instead, if they would just say: We do our best to live our lives according to the bible. It's the failed predictions, changes in information, that leave the society with egg on their face, and on the follower's faces that stand by them, and that's what I have a problem with.
Either they quit claiming that Jehovah's spirit is directing them, or Jehovah Himself gives some SOLID, indisputable evidence that these are indeed his chosen people. Throughout history God gave PLENTY of proof of who his people were. He gave PLENTY of proof of that Jesus was his son. I just want proof. So far, there is more evidence to the contrary for me to have conviction that the JW's are God's chosen people.
I am not ashamed of Jehovah's name. I want to stand up for Him. I just don't want to misrepresent Him.
There are some impressing aspects of the religion to me. They do actually try to teach the bible, and God's name is used as it was in the original manuscripts. The faith among the people is incredible. The worldwide growth is notable. Are faithful people all that you need for an organization to be successful?
When we go to work, most of us have a boss. Sometimes we do things that we may not agree with, or that may not be right, because we have to do what the boss says. This is especially true in the military. In fact, you could get into trouble for questioning authority, even if the authority is wrong. If God wants me to obey the JW's and the governing body, then that's what I want to do. I would just like for God to hold a company meeting and formally, publicly declare them to be the "Boss".
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Apr 3 15 1:45 PM
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JJDupri, a warm welcome to the site...you said: ”What am I supposed to do?”
You may not realise this but your simple question implies something very telling about your engagement with Jehovah’s Witnesses. You have allowed yourself to be led.
The best way to deal with life is to first understand exactly why JWs are wrong, then learn about life, and then direct yourself with your own goals and ambitions. This is not selfish ...it is your birthright.
To succumb to the teaching and demands of a mind controlling religious sect is to deny your right to be being a fully fledged human.
To wake up and realise TTATT can be to arrive at a new and alarming prospect for a JW. It means, possibly for the first time in one’s life; to confront oneself. To confront the fact that we have an individual will and the right to assert it and that we are completely responsible for ourselves as well as our family. This might include realising a new dimension; that if we are born... then also we die.
These are hard realities which religious belief had cushioned us from, yet which we all must face squarely if we want to be honest and live authentic lives, not hiding from our fears. The fact is that most of us here have been through this experience and now find that life is even more precious and beautiful than when we were slaves to the WT .
You did ask what you are supposed to do and I have tried to give some insight into the dynamics of having been led (or misled) as a JW but I say it in the spirit of wishing to help...as we all do. Take it easy JJ and be grateful that you have only been infected for five years!
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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JJ, I did not welcome you to the board in my post, so, a big welcome to you. I see you first posted a couple of months ago, I think it's good for you to be here and to talk some of this out with folks that have been in your shoes (like me).
Let me first say that I will endorse any option you choose to take, or not take. It matters to me personally not one iota what choice you make... if you still believe the Bible is God's word, that's OK with me, although I have some other thoughts about that, but I don't want this to turn into a debate. There is a forum of this site for debate, as long as people are respectful in their comments, they can hash out whatever thoughts or opinions they may have. I would like to share with you my thoughts about the Bible and the prophecies as you have been taught by the Organization.
I can't disregard the bible. There are too many proven historical accounts. It doesn't matter what religion you are in, the bible despite different translations, the basic important fundamental information remains the same. How can a book written over thousands of years continue to be written over and over, and not be changed. Because God won't let that happen.
As long as you realize that this perspective is only based on faith. Yes, the Bible does provide some historical matter that can be confirmed as true. That doesn't mean the entire collection of Bible books are 100% accurate or are completely realistic, based on what actually took place. You must accept that based only on faith, because there is an enormous amount of irrefutable evidence that portions of the Bible are just stories, mythical, untrue. (These are the things I would be willing to talk about on the debate forum if you so wish).
I have been where you are at right now, realizing there are many things about this religion, the Governing Body, and the doctrines such as 'only Witnesses will gain salvation, the rest of them will die' and whether one lives or dies depends on how they treat Witnesses when they come to their door on Saturday morning with their 'interesting article in the Awake' about tips on house cleaning or some other "Ladies Home Journal" type of article. Does the door to door work really give everybody on earth an equal chance of understanding God's Kingdom and allow them to accept it or reject it based on a thorough understanding of the issues involved?
I can't help but think of the scripture in 2nd Peter 3:3 when people say that there has always been wars, etc: -First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.”
Of course I considered 2nd Peter 3:3 when I left as did most everyone else whoever left the Organization. I freely admit I am one of those people who question the whole notion of the "last days." So when did the "last days" start? Was Peter talking about people who would live 2000 years after him? Or was he talking to the Jews whose temple and whole way of life were about to be destroyed? You must also acknowledge that religious people for 4,000 or 5,000 years have been predicting the end of the world. This is known as eschatology--the study of when the end will come from a Christian perspective. Jehovah's Witnesses did not invent the idea that we are in the last days. If you are reading "Crisis of Conscience" you will find that not all Governing Body members believed in 1914 or "the end of the gentile times" and to quote what one GB member said about the "generation" and the gentile times ending in 1914, "We got the whole thing, lock, stock and barrel from the Second Adventists." Eschatological doctrine has been going strong among Christians for 2000 years.
“Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.”
I think in view of the many failed prophecies about it, this is a valid question. Maybe some people say that this is ridicule, but I ask this question sincerely. When I was growing up, it was all going to be over with in 1975. And that is not the first date that Witnesses blundered. There were at least six other dates that failed to produce what they said would take place... and people based their entire lives on these "critical times" and when they were going to end. I knew Witnesses who sold their homes, quit their jobs, taking what little money they had accumulated in their retirement funds and went "Pioneering." I knew people who did not even go to the dentist for several years because the end was coming and Jehovah would fix their dental problems. And yet, in spite of all the predictions, both from Witnesses and those who lived thousands of years ago, it has not come about. What IS the delay?
Matthew 24 also says this:
And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."
And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Has the Organization ever been wrong about what would happen in the near future? Do they fit Jesus' words here?
Either they quit claiming that Jehovah's spirit is directing them, or Jehovah Himself gives some SOLID, indisputable evidence that these are indeed his chosen people. Throughout history God gave PLENTY of proof of who his people were. He gave PLENTY of proof of that Jesus was his son. I just want proof.
When I left, I was ridiculed in front of some of our friends by my wife: "David wants PROOF." And so I did. Later I came to understand that if I had proof, there would be no reason to have any faith. Witnesses get this all screwed up. They want their "faith" to be based on "accurate knowledge" (is there any other kind of knowledge? If a person has "knowledge" by definition of the word, it is accurate, for it is based on reality). You can't have it both ways... you can't have proof of something and say that you have faith in it as well. I know what will happen to me if I walk off a tall building. I don't have faith in gravity, gravity is a reality. I have knowledge of gravity, I have proof of what happens when an object, including a human, goes over the edge of a building.
In short, you will never have proof that the GB are being directed by Jehovah. You will also never have proof that Jehovah exists, that the Bible has come down to us accurately, without any of its message not getting corrupted by those who copied the "original writings" because they don't exist. We have nothing in the way of the "original writings." The best we have are little fragments of the "copies" that were written a couple of hundred years after the "originals." What we DO have is evidence that those who copied the Bible made mistakes, some of them unintentional, but some of them deliberately by some priest or scribe trying to add a little bit more explanation and interpretation. There is strong evidence that portions of some of the books in the Bible were lost somewhere along the path through history. The early Christians did not even have a copy of the Bible as we know it today (the decision of what writings to put in "The Bible" was not made until nearly 400 years after Jesus died and the manner in which the decision was made and who participated in making it is a little disillusioning). A lot of good it would have done them if they had a copy, less than 5% of them could even read. Many of the "scribes" could not read either, they could only copy the marks in front of them, and they had no understanding of the meaning of the text they were copying.
The faith among the people is incredible. The worldwide growth is notable. Are faithful people all that you need for an organization to be successful?
Yes, I agree. This was true of the folks of Jones Town who committed mass suicide right after they killed a U.S. Congressman. And if you want to talk about growth, have a look at the Mormons. They are tremendously successful, and they are certainly, by any measure a successful organization. However, the Witnesses and Mormons are nearly tied in one aspect of their religion, they have the highest turnover rate of membership than does any other religion in America. Jim Jones had a pretty high rate of turnover too, but he was in Guyana.
So far, there is more evidence to the contrary for me to have conviction that the JW's are God's chosen people.
In civil court cases, "beyond reasonable doubt" is not necessary to win. It is the "preponderance of evidence" upon which the judge or jury will base their decision. It "rings true" to them, one way or another. They don't need absolute proof to make that decision. You see where this is leading... if you have more evidence to the contrary, then you have the "preponderance," the weight measured on the scale, you can see that the scale is out of balance, and when you ponder the evidence long enough, you will have an answer. Just as there is no PROOF that they have the truth, there is also no PROOF that they are wrong. We must make our decision based on the reading on the scale and even what manner of scale we use to see where the weight hangs. Have you thought about the "scale" you are using?
If you want proof of things, stick to mathematics and good science because when it comes to religion, we are no closer to agreement than we were 5,000 years ago. There has not been any progress towards finding the "truth" about religion since people could first discuss their beliefs. If you want to believe the Bible is an accurate copy of what the original writers put down, if you want to believe in God, or even in Jehovah God, you must do so entirely out of faith. That's OK with me. Now if you want to walk off the edge of tall building and have faith that you will survive, that you will arrive on the ground in good condition, then I would do everything in my power to stop you.
The last point I have is this: Any religious organization or religious leader wants you to believe them because they have an agenda. Perhaps there are sincere people who would like to share their faith with you, but I would ask what's in it for them? Are there any payoffs for them personally? As long as I have been missing in action from the congregation, I still find it hard to believe that the GB or the Organization is in it for the money. On the other hand, money is very important to them, otherwise they would not fight so hard to keep victims of pedophilia from suing them. They have a lot of property around the world, and they are never going to be willing to give it back to the individual Witnesses who helped them acquire it.
They really don't want you to decide for yourself what is right and wrong, and they do not take it lightly if someone even asks them questions... as you have already experienced. They definitely have an agenda. They will ruin lives to hang on to that agenda. They may abhor child abuse, but what they abhor more is the truth about their cover-ups in these cases. They are not willing to "give to Caesar what is Caesar's... " not even if Caesar is asking them for some information.
“The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn but to unlearn.” ~ Gloria Steinem
Last Edited By: YammerHammer Apr 3 15 3:51 PM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineGoingForth
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Apr 3 15 7:38 PM
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@ jjdupri:
"I have read almost half of the book "Crisis of Conscience". Many of the feelings of doubt that developed in me just from studying the recent publications seem to have been completely confirmed. Some of the revelations in this book are simply staggering"
JJ keep reading the book to the finish. That is fine. However, as to your question:
"So what do I do? Where do I go?"
Only YOU can answer that question. If you still need someone else to answer such an important question then you are still a follower of "man" (or "woman.")
When I left I did not even know that book existed. But just by watching what was going on in the organization and what was being advised in the Watchtower I concluded that is not where I wanted to be. The book CofC merely backed up what I had already suspected. You have suspicions as well by your comments.
Are you willing to do something concerning that? What? No one else but YOU can answer those questions.
“The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen nor even touched—
They must be felt with the heart.”
Helen Keller
status offlineauth
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Of course I considered 2nd Peter 3:3 when I left as did most everyone else whoever left the Organization. I freely admit I am one of those people who question the whole notion of the "last days." So when did the "last days" start? Was Peter talking about people who would live 2000 years after him? Or was he talking to the Jews whose temple and whole way of life were about to be destroyed? You must also acknowledge that religious people for 4,000 or 5,000 years have been predicting the end of the world.
This is a good point and the point I was making with my questions about that scripture.
When the organization talks about the end of the world today, do we imagine that they are talking about events scheduled for the year 4000?
If so, it's entirely irrelevant to our generation. I don't expect to be around.
However, if they intend for their message to be relevant to us and the year 4000 finds the promises unfulfilled would people of that time be justified in assuming that the Watchtowers of today were intended for them?
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
Last Edited By: auth Apr 4 15 1:10 AM. Edited 2 times.
status offlinejjdupri
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Apr 4 15 5:06 AM
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I do have faith that the bible is from God. The fact that there are so many christian religions, and yet the bibles all say the same thing, has to be more than a coincidence. They all document Jesus' time here on earth, all of them describe the miraculous acts he performed to prove himself God's son. I could never convince myself that these things never happened. The bible is the most reproduced book in the world, how could this book be recopied millions and millions of times over thousands of years, and all of the accounts described in it are the same in every copy? There is faith stronger than faith, more like I know the bible came from God.
With that being said, for me and anyone else who admits that they believe the bible, what do you do now? I've read hundreds of posts on this forum. Many people seem to be very smart, intelligent individuals. The common piece of advice seems to be to do what is best for you.
Matthew 16:24: Then Jesus said to his disciples: “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake and keep following me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. Really, what good will it do a man if he gains the whole world but loses his life?
I have felt at times enraged that God would leave humans in this world to cope with all of the suffering and problems associated with this life. All because of a dispute between Him and another angel. I have felt that God could not be more selfish. But then I think of the good moments. Any thing that we have that we love, or love to do is only possible because of God. When you love someone there is give and take. How selfish would I be if I were to forget about God, and just try to pursue my own personal happiness? God promises that life in this world will not always be this way, and I believe that.
The JW's have been wrong about a lot of things. I don't know of anyone else though, that as a collective group of people try do do the right things according to what the bible says. Even though they were wrong and changed stances on many subjects, did they not do so in accordance with what bible principles they believed in? What is the selfish and evil motive of the GB? None of them are wealthy. Nobody lives in a mansion. Are they going to sell all of the assets and property the JW's own someday, take the money and run?
status offlineYammerHammer
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Apr 4 15 7:33 AM
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I do have faith that the bible is from God. The fact that there are so many christian religions, and yet the bibles all say the same thing, has to be more than a coincidence.
Just as there is one Quran available to all and yet there are many different religions of Islam, some of whom are killing each other--just like Christians down through the centuries. Is that also more than a coincidence? There is one Book of Mormon, yet there are multiple factions of those who accept it as God's truth. There are many "holy books" that millions of people believe are from the hand of God.
It's obvious you have faith in what you believe. You have a great deal of faith in the Organization (just one of many Christian organizations). I see now that you have an unshakable faith in the Bible... that it has come down to us through the millenniums perfectly in tact... or as nearly perfect as it needs to be. That's fine as long as you realize that faith is faith, and that faith is much different than truth. Things that we accept based on faith are far removed from the realm of truth, what we believe is much different than what we know. It took me a few years to realize the difference between faith and truth--a lifetime of hearing that my faith WAS the truth and that my faith was based on "accurate knowledge." Then I realized that my faith was really no better or worse than anyone else faith.
When we leave what we know (knowledge is the agreement between what is in our mind and what is in reality) and we make that leap of faith, we leap into the darkness. Anyone's faith is untestable, it cannot be challenged and therefore it is not falsifiable. There really is no way to disprove what we believe based on faith. I can say that there are many Gods, as the Greeks and Romans and the Hindus believe today. No one can prove me wrong, just as if I made the claim that on the far side of the sun there is colony of elephants. No one can prove that to be wrong.
I wonder if you have ever read anything from textual scholars about the Bible and how it came down to us. There's a really good book called "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart D. Ehrman who is a textual scholar at the University of North Carolina. He describes the business of determining the accuracy of the Bible (and other ancient texts) especially the New Testament (the Greek Scriptures).
I wonder if you have ever read anything about the difference between truth and faith. There is a really good book called "Six Great Ideas" by Mortimer Adler wherein he discusses the idea of truth, goodness, beauty, justice, liberty and equality. Not that he destroyed my faith, he just clarified for me the difference between what a person can know and what a person believes based on faith.
I think it is good you are reading "Crisis of Conscience" -- that shows you have an open mind and you are not afraid to read things other than the Society's literature. I would just encourage you to hang onto that frame of mind, to be willing to go where the investigation takes you, no matter what the consequences are. I would encourage you to read other ideas as well. And develop the ability to think critically... and to understand what is meant by critical thinking.
There are an abundant number of resources to support you, like this Website and many others that draw on the experiences of those who have been through the struggle you have before you. Use them if you feel the need.
I wish you well in your journey.
Yammer.
“The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn but to unlearn.” ~ Gloria Steinem
Last Edited By: YammerHammer Apr 4 15 7:42 AM. Edited 2 times.
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Apr 4 15 7:34 AM
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Jjdupri, welcome to the forum. You are among people who understand the place you are at right now.
I suggest that you go to this link here:
http://jwfacts.com/
Read the excellent articles on that site. You will find many answers to your questions there.
Good luck.
“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”
- Susan B. Anthony
status offlinejjdupri
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Apr 4 15 8:46 AM
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If people actually followed the bibles's principles you would never hear of a human killing another human again. The problem isn't the bible, it's the people who don't know the information in it.
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Welcome jjdupri (sorry I'm late, lol). It is a really tough time for you right now - sorting things out in your own mind takes time, and the people you should be able to have frank and open discussions with (the elders) are not willing to even consider the evidence. There is no rush though. When I first left the JWs (in 2010, when you were re-joining), I had a bit of a breakdown when I realised how deep the rabbit hole went (ie. all the way to dishonesty from the Governing Body). Allow yourself time to adjust, think things through, read as much as you can from as many different sources as you can, with an open mind. You are in charge of your own mind and you are free to choose how to think and what to believe, but you don't have to have all the answers. I think Crisis of Conscience is one of the best books for those questioning the JW faith - it is not in any way bitter, more melancholic I would say, but it is very revealing, and supported by copious proof. I also second birdwoman2's recommendation to read jwfacts.com, it is an excellent resource, and very well researched. I also wrote a free e-book (download link in my signature, below). Good luck.
Free e-Book: Jehovah's Witnesses - Reasons for Leaving (and for not joining).
Russ.
status offlineauth
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But the bible contains many instances of humans killing humans that was endorsed by God. There was the invasion of the promised land for example.
Sure, one may reason that it's justified if God commands it but it's still humans killing humans. The bible is not a pacifist book.
There's "love thy neighbor" but there were also commands to stone people for picking up sticks on the sabbath or "apostasy".
Anyway, good luck working through the complex thoughts that come with "a crisis of conscience".
It's not always easy to decide what to take with you and what to leave on the cutting room floor.
Each person will make different choices and go through different stages of making them.
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
status offlineHumbleLove
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Apr 4 15 9:25 AM
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Hi jjdupri If I am understanding you correctly then this is how I see your thinking. If I am wrong please correct me. I was reading through your posts and it sounds like you want to know if God is going to judge you individually. Or is God going to judge you
based upon which religious group you belong to?
When you said:
"The problem isn't the Bible, it's the people who don't know the information in it." I have to be honest, even though I am a Christian and I too believe in the Bible. There is a lot about religions as a whole I don't like. I, myself don't actually attend any church. Why?
I can read the Bible by myself and decide for myself. This isn't to say I never attended church. I attended church for 17 years. In fact my religious training was very unique. My parents had me learn four denominations. And then when I was about 12 or 13 years old
they wanted me to learn that there are people who don't believe in the Bible. My Uncle was an athiest and he told me the reasons he didn't believe. He read the Bible to make his decision. Also the big thing in my family was they left it up to me be to believe or not to
believe. They also taught me that that to believe is my personal decision. In the same token so is anything I do in life....it is my choice. I have to choose what I am going to do or be. No one can make the choice for me.
Basically what I am saying is....people read the Bible and then make their own choice. Free will and I am all for free will.
status offlineVancity
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Apr 4 15 9:45 AM
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jjdupri,
I would suggest you research what historians have to say about the bible before taking the word of Christian organizations. I was exactly in your position when I was around 20 years old and it took several years of thoughtful research and critical thinking before I was comfortable with my beliefs. Whatever you decide to believe, make sure you never ignore nagging doubts or things you just don't quite understand. I believe an uncomfortable truth is always better than a comfortable lie. You won't always like the cold truth of reality, but if you honestly care whether or not you hold as many true beliefs as possible, you need to put aside preconceived notions and follow the evidence.
status offlineGoingForth
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@ jjdupri:
"With that being said, for me and anyone else who admits that they believe the bible, what do you do now? I've read hundreds of posts on this forum. Many people seem to be very smart, intelligent individuals. The common piece of advice seems to be to do what is best for you."
"do what is best for you" and what is wrong with that?
If the Bible and/or Jesus talks best for you then what about: "Love your neighbor as yourself"?
Notice that you need to love yourself first before you can love someone else as yourself. It does start with you.
“The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen nor even touched—
They must be felt with the heart.”
Helen Keller
Last Edited By: GoingForth Apr 6 15 3:14 AM. Edited 3 times.
status offlineCacky
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Witnesses like to quote the scripture where Jesus asked Peter if he wanted to leave also, and Peter said, "Lord, whom would we go away to?" Some who leave the jws go to the very person Peter was talking to, Jesus. You are new to learning the truth about the "truth" (TTAT). So many of us, when first learning TTAT feel in a rush to find out, what now then? Then, they told me on this board that I have the whole rest of my life to decide. The whole rest of my life to continue to research and evolve and grow in to the person I was meant to be, rather than a puppet of an organization. I'm still learning, but I can say that if you read the book of Acts, you will see that it's all about Jesus, that he died for our sins. That's what the apostles preached about, Jesus. Jesus even said, "You will be witnesses of me..." Take your time, research, read the Bible without Watchtower publications directing your thoughts, and gradually you will come to know what to do now. You're whole belief system has been turned upside down. You now don't have a "normal." You will build a new normal, but it takes time. Give yourself that time. Take a breath and realize that you have the time to figure things out. edited to add: I'm not saying I believe in the Jesus story, I just wanted to give you an idea to turn to.
Last Edited By: Cacky Apr 4 15 5:12 PM. Edited 1 times.
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status offlineBrightAndHappy
#21 [-]
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Jan 5 14 10:43 PM
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I signed and got several friends to sign too. Please let's keep sharing this and get behind it!!!
status offlineBrightAndHappy
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Jan 5 14 10:48 PM
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KBG, I want to share that video you posted too, can't find it on you tube. Can you post the link or title for me? Cheers
status offlineRaine
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Jan 5 14 10:57 PM
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Sorry for jumping in KBG I was just looking at it and had the tab still open when I read B&H post
B&H that is the youtube link. But I originally watched it on the jwfacts.com page. It's at the top of the home page. So I have been linking jwfacts.com
people have been watching the vids and then browsing through the website.
I Ctrl+Alt+Deleted My Religious Programming
"It is better to live one day as a lion, than a hundred years as sheep"
I would consider myself foolish if I listened to someone who refused to listen to me.
status offlineRaine
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argh the video appeared instead of the link. Ok so on the vid. The top (your) left corner the is the title in white lettering. wave your pointer over that and it becomes the link. It might not take you from here. But it redirects you to the youtube vid from the JWfacts.com site
I Ctrl+Alt+Deleted My Religious Programming
"It is better to live one day as a lion, than a hundred years as sheep"
I would consider myself foolish if I listened to someone who refused to listen to me.
status offlineBrightAndHappy
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Jan 5 14 11:04 PM
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Thanks Raine!
I'm on my mobile so maybe that's why I'm having trouble. I'll search on JW Facts or hop onto the computer later.
:)
status offlineBrightAndHappy
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Here it is gosh I hope that works lol I'm so bad at technology and I'm only 31!
status offlineLocutus
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Jan 5 14 11:08 PM
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Brilliant piece of work from the AAWA. +1.
status offlinehalf banana
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Thanks Inspecter, I was the one thousand seven hundred and eighty second person to sign the petition.
JW's will say "Look how they are persecuting us... Armageddon must come very soon!"
I have a feeling that Armageddon (metaphorically speaking) might only arrive for Jehovah's Witnesses leaving normal people to get on with enjoying their lives...
status offlineKBG
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Below is the post I made to my church website. Reaching out to people we know and who know us will yield more results. But its not for the faint of heart. Most of my friends are super supportive, but as you can see by the comments to my post, not all. Some don't see it as significantly different from any other fairy tale religion. But we need to educate others about the JW atrocities so the WTBS feels the pressure from the public, not just X-JWs. And I think my JW Theocratic training did me some good. I think I gave the protestors something to think about without alienating them too much.
K xxxx Posted...
Some of you have made statements to me like: "Although we UU's don't think like them, is its such a big deal if your daughter believes what Jehovah's Witnesses teach?" I wish I could have explained it as well as this youtube video. I suffered the plight of Daniel as a child, my daughter now suffers the plight of Rachel as a teen.
Whether or not you will sign the petition, please view the video to understand in 5 minutes what JW children are subject to weekly, if not daily.
http://www.change.org/petitions/launch-an-investigation-on-jehovah-s-witnesses-religious-policy-that-violates-human-rights-and-abuses-religious-freedom?share_id=cGMfBtvljQ&utm_campaign=share_button_chat&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=share_petition
Like · · Share · Stop Notifications · January 4 at 10:06am
Seen by 56
Pam xxx, David xxx and 2 others like this.
Randa xxxx sharing
January 4 at 7:02pm · Like
Rebecca xxxx - I agree. I was raised similarly. It was terrifying, I never knew when I was going to be tortured or killed.
January 4 at 9:14pm via mobile · Like
Pam xxxx I signed. So sorry, Kevin. Marilyn is awesome and you are the best dad ever.
January 4 at 9:26pm · Like
Lisa xxxx Blessings Kevin I had no idea.
January 4 at 10:57pm via mobile · Like · 1
Kendra xxxxx I had no idea either, Kevin. Thanks for the consciousness-raising. What a difficult struggle it must be...
Yesterday at 9:55am via mobile · Like · 1
Megan xxxx I had no idea this goes on. How dreadful. I hope that Marilyn will be able to move beyond. She does have you, and Pam is right, you are a wonderful father. BTW-I signed.
Yesterday at 10:51am via mobile · Edited · Like
Steve xxxx I agree that psychological torture must be stopped. But I'm not sure such is unique to JW's. The same Armageddon prophecy cited here is common among western religions in general.
Yesterday at 11:20am · Like
KBG - Steve, I think you have expressed what so many people feel, and that is why it is so hard to fix this problem. But Steve, its quite common among western religions to discriminate against gays. I ask you: So what if its common!? The point isn't belief in Armageddon, its how its used. How many of these religions that believe in Armageddon tell kids their grandparents will be picked apart by birds for not believing the "right" thing. How many do excommunication/shunning with the frequency of JWs? How much do we turn a blind eye to what people can do to other people under the guise of religious freedom?
Yesterday at 11:38am · Like · 2
Dennis xxxx If you have reiigious freedom do you have to tolerate a certain amount of extremism and irresponsibility. If not, how much conformity to your set of beliefs are you willing to enforce and how?
Yesterday at 3:23pm · Like
Dennis xxxx It is true that Jehovahs Witnesses are not alone in such beliefs. I grew up in a fundamentalist church that espoused much the same beliefs. I did not feel tortured. Even as a young child I thought these people were simply nuts. Later as a teen I took refuge in the local library where I read the works of Camus, Satre, Thoreau , Emerson, Buber, Watts, Huxley and many others. That was a potent antidote. At age 16 I left that church when they started distributing John Birch Society literature. I did not return to any church until I found UCH some 42 years later.
Yesterday at 3:32pm · Like · 2
KBG - Dennis, how were you treated by your parents, siblings, and ex-church members after you left the church at 16? Where did you eat your dinner after you left the church at age 16?
Yesterday at 3:55pm · Like
Laura xxxx I am so sorry, Kevin. I cannot even imagine how difficult this must be for you and your family. I know that I am really glad for Marilyn that she has you. Quite honestly, I am glad for all of us that we have you. Thank you for sharing this and for being so open with your struggle and bringing awareness to this issue.
Yesterday at 5:51pm · Like · 4
Jennifer xxxx So sorry, Kevin. Unfortunately, it isn't just one religion. Fortunately, I was raised unchurched, but the "war stories" of childhood faiths can come from anywhere. I know some kids (adults, now) whose parents were "mixed-faith," one Lutheran, one Catholic. The kids were raised Catholic and they recounted that when their non-Catholic parent was sleeping/napping they would stand over them and silently pray and try to figure out how to baptize them and have them take some sacraments because they were deathly afraid of them going to hell. I'm all for freedom of religion, but not at the cost of damage -- to one's self or others. This may be subjective in many cases, but when the focus is on external control via fear and threats, as opposed to internal control via love and peace, a line has been crossed. Religion can be such a beautiful thing, but humans can really F*&K it up.
Yesterday at 6:33pm · Edited · Unlike · 1
Dennis xxxxx Kevin -- I was fortunate in that my parents mostly respected my wishes. My mother was disappointed but she never went beyond simple statements that she wished I would re-join the church. My father was not on good terms with some in that church and he did not react much to my decision. Hunting and fishing were always more important to him than organized religion and I shared those interests. My brother was even more alienated from the the church that I. He was very supportive. Some family members on my mothers side just stopped talking about anything regarding the church around me. Other people in the church pretty much cut off any contact with me. That was not particularly bothersome since I had little respect for them. I had many other friends who were not connected to the church and were not aware of my break with the Free Methodists. And I never bothered to inform them. It was a significant event in my life but not particularly traumatic. My feelings at the time were more of relief than regret.
23 hours ago · Unlike · 1
Dennis xxxxx I would just add that what some children are subjected to in many fundamentalist churches is despicable. But whether we are obligated to do more that offer an alternative -- I'm not sure.
23 hours ago · Like
KBG - Each one of us can make a difference on this issue. Churches are influenced by the general populace. The Mormon church changed its stance on polygamy because of pressure from outside the church. The Catholic church has done away with Excommunication of laity. Jehovah's Witnesses have relaxed their NO BLOOD policy based on pressure from outside the church.
Doing an action like signing the petition will not alter freedom of religion, but, it will show Jehovah's Witness leadership that the outside world is aware of the manipulations they use to coerce families into mentally torturing their own.
On a micro level, next time JW's come to your house, don't tell them: "I'm busy..." or "I'm not interested..." to them that equates with you being too much a part of Satan's world to care about God. Don't allow them think you are all caught up in yourself.
Tell them: "I'm not concerned with living forever. I AM concerned by how people treat others. I could never support a religion that uses fear and shunning to torture and break up families."
I appreciate how y'all express your viewpoints. Sorry for the book.
22 hours ago · Edited · Like · 1
Kelly xxx Thanks for sharing, Kevin. Best wishes for your family.
21 hours ago · Like
Randa xxxx This was very informative to me... I have a loved one married to a daughter of JW mother and I had no idea what that fully meant she had been subjected to...
19 hours ago · Like · 1
Tammy xxx Kevin. My thoughts are with you and so is my love
4 hours ago via mobile · Like
status offlineg82
#30 [-]
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Just signed. Now one thousand nine hundred and thirteen. Go AAWA!!!!
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You got some feedback there Kevin!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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This petition has just passed the half-way point to its goal of 5,000 signatures.
If you haven't signed it already please do. You can sign it anonymously should you need to.
If you have signed it please share it with friends and ask them to sign it.
If everyone who signed it got one more person to sign it then the petition would reach its goal.
"The highs never match the lows......" - Ronan O'Gara (ex Munster rugby and Ireland player. Racing Metro coach)
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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I've been having so many problems as of late with posting...I'll forego adding anything additional.
I will however say that I respect anyone that continues the battle against the JW bullshit....
status offlineBeachLady
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I signed and posted it on Facebook. Hopefully some of my people will sign as well.
If you want to be happy, be. ~Leo Tolstoy
status offlineRaine
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1,776 NEEDED
I wish there was more I could do. I've basically got as many people to sign it as possible without being obnoxious about it.
I have some friends that didn't sign it and just took it as me needing to be reminded that I don't need that religion because I have people who love me right now.
Which is great and I can't fault them. They can't know what it's like to be shunned and have a JW upbringing.
But it was strangely the first time I was a little disappointed after being told I am loved. It was like "Thanks.. I love you too... But that aint getting this petition signed." ;)
I Ctrl+Alt+Deleted My Religious Programming
"It is better to live one day as a lion, than a hundred years as sheep"
I would consider myself foolish if I listened to someone who refused to listen to me.
status offlineHumbleLove
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Is this petition still active does anybody know? It looks like it is.
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offlineinspecterD
Petition
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Jan 2 14 6:18 AM
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http://www.change.org/petitions/dept-of-justice-uscirf-u-s-attorney-general-s-office-un-human-rights-div-launch-an-investigation-on-jehovah-s-witnesses-religious-policy-that-violates-human-rights-and-abuses-religious-freedom?share_id=cGMfBtvljQ&utm_campaign=share_button_chat&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=share_petition
I found this on facebook this morning and I signed. Don't know if it will work but I hope so. I simply can't help but think that the Borg will simply offer the explanation that people have the right to not associate with anyone they consider to be bad association and that includes family. I hope that the investigation includes interviews with people who will be honest enough to say that the Borg told them to do it. Fortunately, the Borg has made outrageous statements at assemblies and in the rags they pass out. Some days I am hopeful but most I feel resigned that this is the way it is always gonna be.
status offlineMarked for life
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Jan 2 14 6:36 AM
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Just signed. Got teared up while reading the prop. Thanks D.
status offlinesolitaire
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Jan 2 14 7:38 AM
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I signed too!! Lets hope it has the impact that our stand against the 'mentally diseased' label seems to have had!! Even if it doesn't stop this cruel practice, the more we can bring their disgusting treatment of people to everyones attention, the better!!
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlineeewx2
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Jan 2 14 7:44 AM
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Some days I am hopeful but most I feel resigned that this is the way it is always gonna be.
I feel the same way.
I signed the petition. Thanks for sharing!
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Jan 2 14 3:33 PM
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Thanks for sharing.
Saw it on FB as well and signed and shared it then.
Currently 727 signatures so going well. I have seen petitions on this site (the petition site) before for other (non-JW related) issues die a death so will be interesting to see if it is still motoring in a few days time.
"To have it come around once is a dream, to have it come around twice is incredible. - Declan Kidney (Munster rugby coach) 24th May 2008
---*---
This is the dark heart of the Heineken Cup - Stuart Barnes in Thomond Park January 2006
---*---
http://youtu.be/BFJ65Og3A2o - Was at this match with an amazing finish. You will see Cian (red hat) behind the women in this clip 6:50-6:57. G'WAN MUNSTER !!!
Last Edited By: Jan 2 14 5:06 PM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineRaine
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Just signed and shared on Facebook. It's strange. Even after all this time. The weird anxiety that comes over me when it comes to standing up to this organisation.
Not that I feel it's wrong. I've learnt enough to not go there. I think it's the repercussions with family that still pin me down.
All the more reason why an investigation is so important.
I Ctrl+Alt+Deleted My Religious Programming
"It is better to live one day as a lion, than a hundred years as sheep"
I would consider myself foolish if I listened to someone who refused to listen to me.
status offlinewhytebyrd2
#6 [-]
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Jan 2 14 6:22 PM
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I signed it.
If we keep shouting it out somebody will hear and do something about this horrible religion. That is my biggest hope.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
status offlineRaine
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Jan 2 14 9:36 PM
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6 People who are not JWs and have never been associated with JWs have signed and shared. Because they know me and what I've been through. And because of my experience they have seen what this religion really is. They think an investigation needs to happen.
I feel very lucky to have such supportive people in my life. But I'm also extremely happy that there is 6 people. Plus the people they talk to. That this religion can't hurt.
I Ctrl+Alt+Deleted My Religious Programming
"It is better to live one day as a lion, than a hundred years as sheep"
I would consider myself foolish if I listened to someone who refused to listen to me.
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Jan 3 14 5:21 AM
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Quite a few of my non-JW( or ex) friends have signed it as well.
I never converted anyone to that religion but I sure as hell have warned enough to stay well clear of it.
"The highs never match the lows......" - Ronan O'Gara (ex Munster rugby and Ireland player. Racing Metro coach)
status offlineRaine
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hahaha same. As a JW I was hopeless. As an ex JW though.. But it's not like I'm preaching a message. Ever. It's probably the same with you.
Try to be good to the people around me and if they ask questions. I answer honestly. The proof is in my life. The absence of my family is obvious.
So when a JW knocks on their door and tells them that JWs don't shun. They know that's a lie. And if a JW claims I'm the wrong doer. They know that's a lie too.
In the end it's the JWs that are doing their own un-witnessing.
It's good to see the petition at 1,115
I Ctrl+Alt+Deleted My Religious Programming
"It is better to live one day as a lion, than a hundred years as sheep"
I would consider myself foolish if I listened to someone who refused to listen to me.
status offlineKefka6
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Jan 3 14 8:53 AM
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So I just signed the petition, and if by some councedence somebody in my hall sees this and I end up getting df'd I wouldn't really care, as long as people know just how inhumane this kind of treatment is
status offlineDanmera
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Jan 3 14 4:14 PM
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Yes, get your friends to sign it. Many of my non-jw are very supportive.
Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to
prove anything that's even remotely true!
Homer Simpson
Youtube user name:
Danmera
status offlineAndriaSyxx
... good catch Dee #12 [-]
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I've just signed and added why I've signed. My main worry is the kids who are being subjected to this kind of lifestyle. As a child born into this religion ... I was never given a choice.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineRaine
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I'm reading the supporters comments. They are breaking my heart. So much pain.
I Ctrl+Alt+Deleted My Religious Programming
"It is better to live one day as a lion, than a hundred years as sheep"
I would consider myself foolish if I listened to someone who refused to listen to me.
status offlinejeliz1234
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Jan 4 14 12:14 AM
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At first I was a little hesitant about signing because I am only inactive - nobody in my family or former congregation know I am against the jw. But then I decided it was too important not to sign. I guess I am officially an 'apostate' now... :) 1,474 signatures so far.
status offlinebelladiane
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Jan 4 14 6:36 AM
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Awesome, I signed!
status offlineneveragain
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Jan 4 14 7:25 AM
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Up to 1500-some signatures when I signed. Watchtower's biggest protection has been their ability to keep their repugnant policies hidden from the public. Oh, how they love their "good name." Enough.
status offlinewalkaway
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Jan 4 14 11:11 AM
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Signed it! Thanks for bringing this to the forum otherwise I'd probably not known about it. I dont know what the law can do but it's important that this become common knowledge.
status offlineSailAway
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Signed and filled in the comment section, anonymously, of course.
What is needed for dramatic change is an accumulation of acts, adding, adding to, adding more, continuing. We know that it does not take everyone on Earth to bring justice and peace, but only a small, determined group who will not give up during the first, second, or hundredth gale.
One of the most calming and powerful actions you can do to intervene in a stormy world is to stand up and show your soul. Soul on deck shines like gold in dark times. The light of the soul throws sparks, can send up flares, builds signal fires, causes proper matters to catch fire. To display the lantern of soul in shadowy times like these – to be fierce and to show mercy toward others; both are acts of immense bravery and greatest necessity.
Struggling souls catch light from other souls who are fully lit and willing to show it. If you would help to calm the tumult, this is one of the strongest things you can do.
Excerpts from, You Were Made for This, by Clarissa Pinkola Estes, Ph.D
status offlineKBG
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Signed , placed a comment.
We need to get more general public people on board with this. Just like with gay rights, there are not enough gays to make the change in society to equality, we need straight allies with us. So too, there aren't enough X-JWs to make this change, we need non-JW allies. I also posted the video that one of you posted about JW children a few days ago.
Posted this video with the petition to my church FB page earlier today. One UU from my church has signed so far. One has has shared with her friends.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Thanks for adding the clip KGB. It summed up in less than five minutes ... how many of us have grown up in that religious lifestyle. All that talk of death, destruction etc ... set me on my path to long-term insomnia. Thanks WTBS!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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status offlinematitalica
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I miss everything about being a jw, I think I'll become one again......not!
status offlineCacky
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Speaking about once time calling on your teacher, my daughter had a return visit with her eighth grade science teacher. He was real nice to her. But his dog had jumped up on the car and might have scratched it. The bro driving was a car salesman and it was a dealer's vehicle and if anything happened to it, he'd be responsible for $500 of the cost. He was wanting to go back and have the teacher's insurance cover the cost. Fortunately, they weren't permanent scratches. My poor daughter was mortified at the idea of him going back to tell the teacher he'd have to have his insurance cover the scratches. The teacher didn't ask us to come to his property! That elder was a very persnicity (can't spell it). His wife was the pioneer I've referred to before who has spent over 30 years pioneering with nothing to show for all of that time she gave, and is still giving.
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The thing I miss most about the JW organization is ...
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offlineauth
The thing I miss most about the JW organization is ...
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Apr 1 15 8:47 AM
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I didn't celebrate April Fools so I wasn't compelled to do silly things like
pretending to miss anything about the JW organization. :P
What do you miss the most smiley: laugh
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
status offlineLocutus
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Walking to meetings in front of my worldly school friends on Sunday mornings in a tweed suit with elbow patches. Damn, that was so great.
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Mmm - nothing about the organisation.....but I do miss some of the people who are still brainwashed ...
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlinealexia
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I too miss some of the still brainwashed people. These were all of my childhood/adolescent friends and since our lives and association was so limited, this was all I had. I do feel grief when my mother reports to me that bro/sis so-and-so is very ill or passed away - people I have known for a long time. Many of them were likable.
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Yeah, people are the only thing we could possibly miss. That's why the organization holds them hostage!
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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If I understood the beginning of this thread correctly it was meant to be an April Fools joke???
If so, I miss finishing up a 5 hr housecleaning job, rushing to pick up kids from 3 different schools, figuring out something for dinner to feed kids and keep in oven until husband got home at 6:30 pm and getting 4 kids ready for meeting by myself and getting to the meeting all put together in time (7:15) to greet people at the Kingdom Hall and then getting home around 9:45 or 10:00 and there not being time for kids to do homework due the next day....I'm sure I've missed some things about the wonderful life (not) of being the mother in a JW family.
Oh, and I SO miss that 'sister' who loved to gossip about me and make trouble for my kids and husband in the congregation. She was such a peach!
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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I think I just miss one or two people, if they are still alive. I enjoyed a lot about being a JW at times. Like I actually enjoyed going out in service. I enjoyed having the social thing for a while anyway, well, at least until I was baptized. Everyone was so good and kind to me, then I got baptized and BAM, I was no longer treated so amazingly well.
I would never be a JW again.
status offlineeewx2
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Service. Definitely service. I still have nightmares about being out in service. LOL
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whytebyrd2 wrote:
If I understood the beginning of this thread correctly it was meant to be an April Fools joke???
If so, I miss finishing up a 5 hr housecleaning job, rushing to pick up kids from 3 different schools, figuring out something for dinner to feed kids and keep in oven until husband got home at 6:30 pm and getting 4 kids ready for meeting by myself and getting to the meeting all put together in time (7:15) to greet people at the Kingdom Hall and then getting home around 9:45 or 10:00 and there not being time for kids to do homework due the next day....I'm sure I've missed some things about the wonderful life (not) of being the mother in a JW family.
Oh, and I SO miss that 'sister' who loved to gossip about me and make trouble for my kids and husband in the congregation. She was such a peach!Yeah, it was an April Fools joke with a facetious challenge to find something you miss.
Anyway, that *is* quite a schedule! I was exhausted just reading it.
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
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Sharon - that was funny reading...and at the same time soooo true!!
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I believe my favorite memory was being out in service on Saturday morning and one of your classmates opens the door. Couldn't friggin wait to give them that speech I had prepared about the latest "Awake!".
P.S. One time, my teacher actually answered the door... And was rude. That was fun.
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Michelle H7 - OMG, I've probably overlooked you until now. Hell, I don't keep up with everything but when I notice a new poster - Well, my love, Welcome and keep posting.
status offlineCee Cee
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Beyond a few precious good-hearted people long gone from this earth, the one thing I miss most about not being a Wit is the smug hubris of thinking I/we "had the truth". Wrong as it is, it's far more comforting than having to admit you haven't got a clue about how the universe really works; what's the best thing to do now, and what you need to know about tomorrow. Still, would I change my brain to be a mindless zombie once again. No.
I don't know if you caught it, but my wonderful husband, The Cap'n, had a stroke (a mini stroke) a month ago and no one has heard much from either of us since then. We've decided it is time to give up our beautiful Florida home and move into a large 2 bedroom/2 bathroom garden level apartment in an Independent Living facility for Seniors [Think of it as a gold plated Old Folks Home.] before that big black hearse shows up at our door. Downsizing and trying to fit our collection of the 'artifacts' of a lifetime of adventures into one of these feels like the final form of surrender to old age. (My handsome hero is getting close to 80. Can it be?)
Perhaps when things calm down for us, I will pick up a few more minutes in a day to check in with you all.
Be well. Get lots of hugs, Cee Cee
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Good to see you back, Cee Cee. And send my wishes for a complete recovery to The Cap'n. I moved to a "gold plated Old Folks Home" last year, and I understand the emotional struggle to adjust to the change. They call it "Independent Living", but it is a constant reminder that we are entering a less independent stage of our lives. I am one of the youngest tenants here, (64 years old) but I look and think like I am in my 50's. People here still ask me who I am "visiting", lol. When my granddaughter came to see me last Thanksgiving, she whispered to her aunt (like she was the only one who noticed) "Aunt Ellen...look at all these old people. What's Gamma doing here?" smiley: eek smiley: laugh But there are many benefits, and I try to focus on that. The best part for you is you have a husband, and so you won't have to navigate the "newness" alone. I hope you both settle in very quickly, and that it proves to be a decision that makes life easier going forward.
Oh, and I don't miss anything about "the organization." I was df'd years ago, then got reinstated. That didn't last long, as I realized that I was no longer a "fit" for their way of life. I had been out for a while, and learned not to like the taste of "Kool-Aide."
Last Edited By: cangie 4 days ago. Edited 1 times.
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Thanks for stopping in Cee Cee. Wishing you all the best that the transition goes as smoothly as possible.
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
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solitaire wrote:
Mmm - nothing about the organisation.....but I do miss some of the people who are still brainwashed ...
My sentiments fazackerly
Regards Paul
Read my novel Boomshot (18+)
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Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
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Cee Cee, I am so sorry about the Cap'n. You both are in my thoughts. I love your comments and your perspective so I hope things will go smoothly and you both get settled in and make the adjustment. Be sure we are all thinking of you and your husband.
Love to you,
David.
“The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn but to unlearn.” ~ Gloria Steinem
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((Cee Cee and her Cap'n))
I am so sorry to hear of your husbands stroke......and I hope that your move goes well and you both soon settle into your new home...
My husband had a brush with death last year (he picked up some unknown bug on holiday and ended up in hospital with sepsis)......and I know how vulnerable it can make you both feel!!
Even now, almost a year later, those feelings are hard to shake off, so I'm sending you both my love and positive thoughts your way!!
Sam xx
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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I miss all those years I can't get back. It's been so long, I don't even really miss the people.
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I'll play along ... even though I'm a bit late.
What do I miss? That true, genuine friendship. No wait. That is part of the myth!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineBilly Sugger
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There were some who were genuine friends....felt the love off them a few times....one was an ex hippy...double the joy from him....well, both of them.
But, there's not much else. I did used to enjoy giving talks and if I could make people chuckle in those talks, all the better.
Well, I told the past to kiss my ass and turned and slammed the door.!!
Mike Estes 2012.
Free to be me.
Ian Gillan 1970
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Satan
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Satan
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Do we really continue believing in such nonsense"
After all the legal stuff with fence rider..going to court and all that nonsense...she want's telling me about how Satan and Jehovah rule this world.
I'm just not going to play her game...I'm sick of Jehovah and Satan.
Last Edited By: Linda Mar 31 15 3:11 AM. Edited 1 time.
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They need to make up their mind whether Satan is ruling or Jesus is. Talk about having your cake and eating it.
"Be loyal to Christ, the reigning King, and his Organization" but don't forget to be AFRAID of the Bogeyman.
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
Last Edited By: auth Mar 31 15 4:48 AM. Edited 2 times.
status offlineVancity
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Satan exists in theology for the same reason governments always have a group of people to fight against. It gives them someone to blame all the bad stuff on and unites people against a common enemy. It basically distracts members from reality.
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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And, for some of us we don't believe in Jesus or Satan...we just know that life can often seem stressful..and we don't need a scapegoat because of family or religion.
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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I saw the heading "Satan" and though .... 'yes Lin ... what did you want?' ....... but then that would make Satan ... as in me ... fun! We can't have that. Satan is supposed to be scary ... not some weird woman from the wilds of Western Australia!!!! smiley: wink
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Missy Rhonda...I'd guess we h ave discussed the reasons for why we don't believe in their religion...we know to be kind loving persons and we no longer need their shame.
Hey, I doing research on Marquis De Sade...religion had a lot to do with his history as did being born into wealth and royalty.
Guess I'm at the stage of my life when people talk about Satan, I'm finished listening to their religious bullshit.
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@ Linda Yes, I think religion does have a lot to do with someone's history. As well as if someone is born into wealth and royalty. How are your studies coming? That's an interesting thing you are researching Marquis de Sade. Are you researching him because he is French or some other reason? I just found it interesting that you were researching him. He is an interesting guy with very interesting views for someone having been born in 1740.
@Andria i had a chuckle when I read your post.
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"Satan" is a convenient catchall for the "bad" people do and for the bad and sad things that happen. "Satan" gives them a place to dump the angst by blaming one central entity. However, it gets carried way too far when people start thinking that other people are following this entity called Satan. Then it gets into weird.
I believe in God. I also believe the evil exists, but it's somehow in the hearts of mankind. Why do we have war? They don't just happen. Someone plans them. Someone starts them. We have never grown out of that primitive and unreasonable way of dealing with the world's problems.
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I totally agree with the "Why do we have war? " It makes sense what you said. And exactly why haven't we grown out of the primitive and unreasonable way of dealing with the world's problems? Why haven't we? Maybe it's because some people still have the primitive and unreasonable way of thinking ingrained.
It's an interesting viewpoint about Satan. I understood what you meant by "gets into weird."
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Hey!
Guess it happened years ago when I became interested in how people find it so easy being so cruel to another. We are a military family, we do research into many subjects - we just find human nature most interesting.
Through my years of research, I've actually learned to be a more compassionate person. Perhaps better aware but none the less, be cautious.
I also enjoy reading about Rasputin - the old days from Russia and the Czar.
History is interesting...and it's a constant study; just as it is with the WTBTS.
When you have any religion that protects these type individuals - you will also have someone doing research and share with others.
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Some religious groups and non religious groups tend to enjoy having a scapegoat for the world's ailments and ills. There's nothing except religious doctrine to say that Satan existed or exists .... and nothing except religious doctrine to say he's the baddie and god is the goodie!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Yes, Satan is real. I lived it.
"among whom the god of this system of thingsac has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through."- Colossians 4:4
"If the light that is in you is really darkness, how great that darkness is!"- Matt 6:23
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vinman,
Quick question for you: If Satan is indeed real, and he is a master manipulator and liar, how can you be so sure the bible you hold so dear was not written by Satan himself to trick you into worshiping the wrong God? Any scripture you can pull out to prove the existence of Satan first needs to be proven to be written and/or endorsed by your God.
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I also enjoy reading about Rasputin - the old days from Russia and the Czar.
Me too! Rasputin has been one of my favorite historical characters to research.
Pre-Revolution Russian history is a passion of mine - my grandfather, and great-grandfather and great-great uncle, were guards for the Czar in the days that Rasputin was wandering around the Russian court. I often wonder if my grandpa met Rasputin.
Quick question for you: If Satan is indeed real, and he is a master manipulator and liar, how can you be so sure the bible you hold so dear was not written by Satan himself to trick you into worshiping the wrong God?
clapping
“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”
- Susan B. Anthony
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Vancity - The only research many do is the Bible and of course it's all true....just read so and such scripture smiley: mad for knowing that they have the truth.argh
I'm glad for our newer members that share...I'd hope they understand we're not always going to agree with how they preach...although we've been guilty of such in the pastStuff it
BW2- My husband has been doing genealogy for over 30 years. It never stops...he has some interesting history and should the day come someone in your family should do the same - don't be surprised for what you might find. It's not easy and sometimes the records are difficult for finding.
At times we've have to show proof of a blood line in order to gain information. Since you seem to have an interest, it's just another thing to help you stay focused on something other than the bullshit from the JW insanity.
If you have questions re: genealogy, please let us know because John loves it and is always willing to help others get started with their own research. Chat later
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Vancity wrote:
vinman,
Quick question for you: If Satan is indeed real, and he is a master manipulator and liar, how can you be so sure the bible you hold so dear was not written by Satan himself to trick you into worshiping the wrong God? Any scripture you can pull out to prove the existence of Satan first needs to be proven to be written and/or endorsed by your God.I did a tiny bit of reading on Gnosticism and it seems to suggest that the demiurge Yaldabaoth (who bears an uncanny resemblance to Yahweh) is the red Devil himself.
So the perspective you suggest, which would be strange from our perspective as ex-JWs, might actually have been seriously held by some people in the past.
You asked, if Satan is continually transforming himself into an "angel of light" how do we know that any light is not deception?
Heck, we were all somehow associated with the JW religion at some point in our lives and now we're here.
Clearly we feel that we were deceived or we'd probably still be "serving Jehovah". Who deceived us?
The Bible makes it clear that Satan and Jehovah are both after the same thing: worship.
Assuming, for argument's sake that they are real and are the same entity, would it care which name you picked to fear?
It would only be bothered if you feared neither.
1 Chronicles 21:1~ NWT
Then Satan stood up against Israel and incited David to number Israel.So David said to Jo′ab and the chiefs of the people: “Go, count Israel from Be′er-she′ba to Dan then report to me so that I may know their number.”
7: Now this was very displeasing to the true God, so he struck Israel. 14: Then Jehovah sent a pestilence on Israel, so that 70,000 people out of Israel fell.
2 Samuels 24:1! NIV
Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.”
So the king said to Joab and the army commanders with him, “Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are."
It's interesting that NWT's translation of 2 Samuels 24:1 is drastically different from any other translation I've seen.
The anger of Jehovah again blazed against Israel when one incited David against them, saying: “Go, take a count of Israel and Judah.”
I don't even know what that extremely strained sentence is supposed to mean. If there is a "one who incited" why not name him?
This very different rendering is not supported by most other translations here: http://biblehub.com/2_samuel/24-1.htm
Although it manages to make it seem as if both Jehovah and Satan didn't order the census for which Jehovah ended up slaughtering 70000+.
I think using their own translation is another way in which the GB manages to prevent JWs from bothering their 'pretty little heads" with Biblical contradictions.
(Contradictions...or accidental revelations of truth...take your pick smiley: roll)
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
Last Edited By: auth Apr 8 15 7:08 AM. Edited 3 times.
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Fundraiser - TTATT Billboard outside Belton, TX JW Conventions
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offlinemrlibre
Fundraiser - TTATT Billboard outside Belton, TX JW Conventions
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https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ttatt-billboard-outside-belton-tx-jw-conventions
Short Summary
Millions of people's lives are being adversely affected every day by Jehovah's Witnesses'(also known as JW.org ) harmful teachings of shunning former members, refusal of certain kinds of medical treatment, social isolation, and harboring of child molesters. The goal of this campaign is to sponsor a billboard that will be targeted to current members traveling to the Belton, TX conventions July 31st - Aug 9th 2015. These conventions attract thousands of current members and hundreds of prospective members. If we help just one wake up and walk away from the cult, we will be successful.
What We Need & What You Get
Here are the specifics of the campaign
Total cost of this project is $3,272
The funds will be used 100% for the purchase of ad space on a billboard along I-35 in Belton, TX, the main route those from Austin, San Antonio, and surrounding areas will use to get to the convention.
The billboard is 672 square feet and will run from July 15th to August 15th, plenty of time to not only catch the attention of convention goers, but locals in the community and the workers setting up the convention.
The contracting company for the billboard is Lamar.
A special web landing page will be created that will align with the billboard's message so we can understand the success of the campaign. We will be measuring increase in web traffic as well as engagement and source.
If we don't reach the goal, all funds will go to supporting jwfacts.com
The Message
The message of the billboard has not been finalized. The message in the campaign picture, that of child molestation, is one of several considered.
Participate in the planning and discussion here on Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/2wwr12/... ...
The final image will drive traffic to a specific web page that aligns with the billboard message.
status offlinematitalica
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That's a really good idea, however keep in mind that it's very probable the jw's will try to get a court order to have it removed and file a lawsuit against the party/company/organization that put it up, so you might want to consider legal counsel first. Just my opinion.
status offlineHumbleLove
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It's a good project...it's going to be quite the challenge though. A slogan for a billboard that will have to be read in roughly 3 to 4 seconds. What's a one sentence catchy phrase that would work to entice someone to check out jwfacts.com without infringing a copyright
or some other legal scenario that would cause the sign to be taken down? Is there a one sentence catchy phrase that can work as a dual purpose? To get the general public aware of JW's so perhaps they won't be deceived into joining and getting JW's who are already
thinking of leaving the religion a website to start their research.
status offlinepalmel1234
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I like the catch phrase - "The truth about the truth" and the big blue log jwfacts.com- with all the letters in the same size font.
I think that would serve a dual purpose - just enough to catch a JW's eye, maybe get them curious,
and the website would be simple enough for the general public to want to check out.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/179443/working_mom.html
status offlinematitalica
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How about: GOVERNING BODY = THE POPE
status offlinematitalica
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JW.ORG....Just Whitewashing the truth.
status offlineauth
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I'm not suggesting this for a billboard but I've had this idea for a graphics design that makes use of the letters TTATT in a shape that's reminiscent of the Watchtower logo. It immediately struck me how the form of the letters is perfect for that. They've kind of dropped that Watchtower logo in favor of "JW.org" though. It might be a way to distance themselves from some of the baggage associated with the Watchtower brand.
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
status offlineHumbleLove
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@Mel Yes, I too liked "the truth about the truth" and the big blue log jwfacts
@Matt good ideas. I would think just about everybody knows who the Pope is in that idea...governing body could be a curiosity with them. and then another sentence maybe "want to know more?" go to jwfacts.com
I like "just Whitewashing the truth also." with jwfacts.com in there somewhere.
@auth They haven't finalized the idea or design yet. I think the use of your letters "the truth about the truth" with a shape reminiscent of the Watchtower logo could possibly work.
status offlineGoingForth
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@ Auth:
They've kind of dropped that Watchtower logo in favor of "JW.org" though. It might be a way to distance themselves from some of the baggage associated with the Watchtower brand.
Interesting--I've been out long enough not to know that.
Right from the start, while in, I often wondered why the "watchtower" logo. Being that JWs are pacifists, and watchtowers have always been symbols of war, defense of war, watch out for enemies etc. Our city's armories building is in the form of a watchtower--it always spooked me out--it looks so much like the pic on the watchtower magazine.
Personally I don't like Billboards--not only they are a distraction and have caused car accidents--they ruin beautiful scenery.
“The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen nor even touched—
They must be felt with the heart.”
Helen Keller
Last Edited By: GoingForth 6 days ago. Edited 1 times.
status offlinehalf banana
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Sounds like a good idea. How about just the enigmatic TTATT and nothing else on the board?
It would get everyone asking what it means including JWs who would be gobsmacked to discover such strong feelings made so public.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status offlinehalf banana
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Just to add that for this to work the acronym would also need the wesbite reference.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status offlineHumbleLove
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@GoingForth I understand what you are saying about billboards. Yes, they do take away from the beautiful scenery.
@half banana the letters TTATT with the website jw-think.com I think the letters would definitely peak curiosity. This is a good idea.
My concern is which website to put on the billboard. They are considering jw-think.com as the main one but I am not sure that's a good idea. If you just type in jwthink.com without the hyphen you get to a website that is in a language other than English. For young
people they would probably type in the hyphen. But, for the majority of the public I am wondering if they would. The idea of having both websites on the board has been kicked around as well.
www.jwfacts.com www.jw-think.com The page that starts out "It's time to start thinking," and then towards the end of the main pages there are several links....one is even a PDF download of "Crisis of Conscience," is on www.jw-think.com .
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Questions For My Sister
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status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Tain - It's often a long process for many of us....just continue reading and not have to much expectations on others because we're all busy with living life. We are here for giving support.
We're not always going to agree on certain issues...I'd like thinking we do agree that the JW religion is so fucked...and it's very difficult breaking away from such hate.
Palm...I really enjoyed what you posted.
What the heck, I enjoy reading everyone's post because they all have something positive to share.
We all deal with religious bullshit from religion - especially the JW because that is our focus.
So, just keep coming back and share your story and no one is going to judge you. Oh, we might find fun along the way but we have never forgotten the struggle.
Take care, John and Lin
status offlineTain
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Papillon1960, it was suggested that she go to another congregation in the area. However, the cong's are too far apart.
Cacky, I am probably much older than many on this community. I don't retain information as well as I used to. I do know about trolls, because I have lurked or posted on other Yuku communities.
Palm, you stated - "You ask questions that any JW already knows." (I don't believe that is true.) I have discussed this situation with close friends (couple) that still goes to that KH, and they wonder why this elder is still in that position. Some witnesses that I have talked with previously do not realize how politics work in the congregations, especially with regard to what elders get away with.
The members on this community appear to have been through a lot with JW's and have more knowledge than the average witness. Many witnesses are "clueless" as to what goes on behind the scenes, especially if they haven't been reprimanded, reproved or disf.
I am not able to write under my real name or give my sister's name, because of what is going on. I'm sure you can appreciate that.
Linda, thanks for your encouragement and everyone that recently posted.
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To be honest I was beginning to wonder if I should have posted my sis' experience, because of the negativity, and Palm's last paragraph. Perhaps it's the way I express myself. I know what I mean, but to get it across to you as members is challenging. Most of you stated that you are disenchanted with JW's and yet you find this experience hard to believe? This particular congregation has serious problems, and power hungry elders. I don't have to be convinced that it's a cult, and that's why I'm not there anymore. I have attended 5 congregations, and have never seen anything like this.
status offlinePapillon1960
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I'm sorry. It just seems like such an impossible situation for your sister and any action she takes, something bad will come of it for her. I wish there was some magic wand I could wave for her, but unfortunately, if there was such a wand, I bet you would have long ago waved it for her. smiley: happy I guess my best advice for her would be to go to the other congregation. He will not change and will continue to make her life difficult if she stays there. Don't you think? I tend to believe that someone who is as arrogant and jerky as him will not stop and I would also be willing to bet that he has done this with other women in the congregation. But, at least, if she isn't there anymore, he will not be able to victimize her anymore.
In the meantime, please keep coming here and letting us know what's going on. We all care. We are an opinionated bunch but we have all paid a dear price for the freedom to express ourselves openly and honestly. Please don't take it personally. It is not to be. Once you've been bitten by a troll, it's just wise to be cautious. I don't think that you're a troll at all. I see you as a kind and loving brother who is concerned, with good reason, for your dear sister. So hang around, ok? Love and hugs-Michele
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Palm, you stated - "You ask questions that any JW already knows." (I don't
believe that is true.)
I really don't want to debate with you as to whether or not you are who you say you are.
Myself and others have listed several things that lead us to be skeptical,
I really don't want to pick apart everything you've said.
Maybe the problem is that you're not explaining things very clearly.
You came here looking for help, so ask your questions.
As you can see, there are plenty of folks who are willing to help you.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/179443/working_mom.html
status offlineSailAway
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Tain wrote:
To be honest I was beginning to wonder if I should have posted my sis' experience, because of the negativity, and Palm's last paragraph. Perhaps it's the way I express myself. I know what I mean, but to get it across to you as members is challenging. Most of you stated that you are disenchanted with JW's and yet you find this experience hard to believe? This particular congregation has serious problems, and power hungry elders. I don't have to be convinced that it's a cult, and that's why I'm not there anymore. I have attended 5 congregations, and have never seen anything like this.First, welcome to the forum Tain! I'm sorry it took me a while to post. I'm staying on an island off the coast of Maine for two months on a much-needed break from care-giving. The Internet and cell service is sketchy to say the least, and I like it that way! Also, I have hesitated to post my very personal experience regarding this topic, but here goes:
My last congregation was a small, rural congregation. I was inclined to think that there was just too much inbreeding going on-- everyone is related to everyone else (I was an outsider.), and everyone knew everyone else's history and business. It wasn't pretty.
It was known that I had an "unbelieving mate", Actually my husband faded over thirty years before I left. This congregation, I think because of all the familial ties, pretty much lets faders be, including me. One C.O. even scolded the congregation for greeting disfellowshipped family members so warmly in the lobby before the meetings during his visit. They are definitely taking a hands off approach to me. I played the mental health card when I left. I think another factor in being left alone is that the COBE (former P.O. and my Book Study Conductor, then Field Service Group Overseer) took a special interest in me. He clearly crossed the boundaries established for elders and those they are supposed to be shepherding. He was a widower. We would exchange "encouraging emails", would text each other and would meet for coffee or lunch. Everything was in the public eye, but I began to feel uncomfortable with the attention. One day a pioneer sister joked that maybe this elder and I could be married in "the new system". I looked her straight in the eye and said, "I'm married!" I stopped responding to his contacts outside of the congregation, but still considered him a dear friend.
Fast forward to my exit. I told this elder that I was going to take a break from going to the meetings. He knew the whole story behind why. He immediately cut off all communication, and I have not heard a single word from him since. So much for friendship. I do think that part of the reason I'm being left completely alone is that this elder knows I have potentially damaging (for him) emails from him. I do agree that active JWs, especially sisters have little idea about the behind-the-scenes politics in the congregation. I was exposed to quite a bit of it before my exit. It was an eye opener.
I completely believe that your sister's experience is well withing the realm of possibility within a congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. In fact, in my former congregation, two pioneer couples worked together in the ministry and hung out together socially. As a result, an affair developed. Both of the offending marriage partners (I hate the words marriage mates, so I totally get your choice to avoid using "loaded language" which is one of the defining characteristics of a cult.), were disfellowshipped, both full-time pioneers, one a much-loved elder. They ended up marrying and got reinstated in about two years. The innocent wife of the offending elder remains single to this day. She revels in her misery and loves that she is sticking it to her ex. He can't be used in the congregation until she remarries or dies. Same thing happened with another elder and his wife, the mother of his four sons. He hooked up with his receptionist at work who he was counseling and "shepherding" because she was a single sister with a troubled pre-teen. He was never used in the congregation again up until his death. His ex-wife was hanging on by a thread of bitterness until the end.
In yet another example, many more years ago, two twin "fleshly" sisters were married to two "fleshly" brothers, all full-time pioneers. They switched marriage partners, got disfellowshipped and remarried. I don't know if either couple returned to the congregation, but I never saw them again. Of course, there were the requisite talks about "dealing treacherously with your marriage mate."
So there you have three examples of the same behavior your sister is describing in another JW congregation. As far as serious problems and power hungry elders, don't even get me started on that one. smiley: devil
Again, welcome to the forum. Please don't hesitate to post. We are all free to choose to respond to a thread or not.
SailAway
“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” ― Marcus Aurelius
status offlineGoingForth
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Hi Tain, I hope you are still with us. I think the best answer to your problem was given by AndriaSyxx. She quoted directly from the "Elders Manual" and that is where all elders go for
settling problems.
If anyone wants to nit pick whether it is two or three witnesses--that elders manual settled it by quoting two scriptures. One says two and the other three. It makes sense the more the better, if four were available--go for it. Here it is again in case anyone missed it:
• There must be two or three eyewitnesses, not
just people repeating hearsay; no action can be
taken if there is only one witness.-Deut. 19: 15;
John 8:17.
The other point to keep in mind is that this forum is not run in the same way that JW congregations are run. Although we have former elders here, many former pioneers, and some were even in line to become Circuit Overseers, and so on. However, no matter what positions we have had in the past are no longer valid here. Some of us, including myself, abhor our former positions or standing or whatever you choose to call it--and definitely do not want to have some kind of special privilege here on account of the past. If former elders were reluctant to answer your questions, that is a good thing, in my opinion. Some of us have been so disgusted with elders that we just prefer that we do not hear such things again.
Those who run, administer, and keep this site going and virus free, are those who are professionally qualified to do so, not on their "former standing."
To the point of referring to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society as "New York" --I have done the same thing. I have even shortened it further at times to NY. What is really meant here is the Headquarters of the society. There are hundreds of Branches, in practically every country, but it is the headquarters in New York that is the real culprit. I used to call it Brooklyn but it no longer is in Brooklyn but somewhere in the North of New York State--Hill Kill or Kill Hill--I can't keep up with all that so--New York--maybe not the city but the state. For those who are from New York here--my apologies--it is probably not fair to have the city or state carry the bad name of the--you know who I mean.
Here on this site we have referred to the headquarters by many names--org, bOrg, Borg, WTBS, WTS, GB or just 'society', 'watchtower' or WTB&TS --but even some of those are cumbersome. We all are basically disgusted with them and wish to use a shorter form.
Now back to your original problem or more accurately your sister's problem. My suggestion to you, since you are still a part of the congregation, go directly to the elder in question. Do not be afraid to face him--face to face. You are clean he is not. Or better still go together with your sister. That makes two witnesses.
But keep in mind the last thing that he needs to know is that you are seeking advice from "apostates"---so keep us out of it for your own good--unless you want to get disfellowshipped along with your sister.
“The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen nor even touched—
They must be felt with the heart.”
Helen Keller
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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I didn't realise your sister was married to a 'worldly' person Tain. If that is the case ... then he should be backing his wife and protecting her, not leaving it to some numpty twat group of elders to set out their own little set of 'local needs' rules. I hope that your sister has told him what is going on .........
The suggestion for your sister to simply move to another hall further is unfair. If she's seriously keen on staying in the borg and getting on with things and not upsetting the elder and his little band of equally controlling men ... then her best avenue is to do what she's told and hopefully things will settle. I hope your sister is not so easily controlled and that she kicks up one hell of a stink. If nothing else ... it may stop the randy elder from coveting a married woman! There are of course many of 'the brothers' who believe that any of 'the sisters' who are not married to a man 'in the truth' ...... isn't really scripturally married and therefore considered fair game.
As for the skepticism regarding some of your comments or statements ...... this time of year we do tend to have a few pot stirrers dropping in to stir things up. It seems to be a seasonal issue and an issue we have all been swept up in over the years. I can see why your sister's experience could be considered hard to believe ... even for me ... because back in the day when I used to go, that kind of elder harassment would not have been tolerated by the other elders or anyone else for that matter. Of course this kind of thing does happen and will continue to happen ..... mainly because so many average jdubs have no idea what their rights are or how to negotiate a complaint against an elder. The WBTS have very carefully and very ambiguously covered their tails quite cleverly ..... just read your copy of the elders handbook and you'll immediately know what I mean!
Your sister can stop this by speaking up. If her husband isn't a jdub ... she has nothing to lose as he won't be punished or controlled. If she hasn't told him about it all ... she should.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Tain wrote:
To be honest I was beginning to wonder if I should have posted my sis' experience, because of the negativity, and Palm's last paragraph. Perhaps it's the way I express myself. I know what I mean, but to get it across to you as members is challenging. Most of you stated that you are disenchanted with JW's and yet you find this experience hard to believe? This particular congregation has serious problems, and power hungry elders. I don't have to be convinced that it's a cult, and that's why I'm not there anymore. I have attended 5 congregations, and have never seen anything like this.
A heads up for you Tain .... it is NOT uncommon at all for elders in various halls to be power hungry and to rule the roost. My family have been involved with at least five or six halls over the years ..... from the Perth metropolitan area down south to Albany on the coast of Western Australia. I personally remember my dad and others being bullied, belittled and generally derided by various groups of elders ...... all of whom I believe were angry that my highly intelligent and super nice dad gave up his lowly mechanic job to become a higher paid and well respected Automotive Instructor within the technical college division of the Education Department. He had nothing but trouble from them and STILL cops it 50 years later. I refer to my dad as being the local elders 'whipping boy' or their own personal 'door mat' ......... and I have to say that the older that particular group of elders have become ..... the nastier and more vile their treatment of others has been ... it's not just my dad who gets treated so badly. He moved from the city to the country for work and also to have a fresh start .... the cockspank elders in the city congregation pre-warned the elders in the country hall ... that my dad was trouble. They had 'marked' him like they all 'mark' so many.
My mother died in October last year and I rang an elder asking him to stay away from my dad's house and to keep everyone else away until my dad wanted to contact them. He didn't listen. None of them ever do. He wanted to speak with my brother ... I was just a lowly female and an apostate at that. They stayed away only because I threatened to ring him back and I added 'and you won't like that ... trust me'. Three months to the day ... a couple of the local elders decided to visit my dad. To drop the latest kingdom ministry to my dad. To drop the latest magazines to my dad. FIRST time in over 30 years that they have bothered to do that ................ hypocritical twats and even though my dad can see it .... his religion has become a habit and as we all know ... addicts don't like to have their particular drug of choice taken from them. Even if that particular drug of choice is being held over their heads by their own dealers!
It's wrong and bloody hard to fight however we are all fully aware that there ARE elders who take great delight in pulling people's lives apart and making life miserable for everyone around them. I put it down to their obvious jealousy and greed .... it's not just a power hungry thing. Don't forget that many of the elders feel they need to keep strict control so that they don't have their own value and worth questioned! It is a power trip for sure ...... but some of the most controlling people in this world are also the most insecure!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
Last Edited By: AndriaSyxx A day ago. Edited 1 times.
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Questions For My Sister
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status offlineTain
#21 [-]
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Apr 6 15 8:00 AM
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I attended meetings regularly. Respectfully, I really prefer that my questions do not get shot down. If it's two witnesses fine, but I was told 3.
Also, it was suggested that she go to the elders in this thread. I personally don't feel it will do any good. That is the other specific question I want answered, if possible, because I want to save my sister unnecessary stress that could be put upon her. If this thread has been exhausted, then so be it. I am trying to help her. I really appreciate the help.
status offlineGoingForth
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Apr 6 15 8:15 PM
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Tain, you are to be commended for looking out for your sister's interests. However, she appears to be of high morals and not likely to fall for someone like that.
But I do understand your concerns. I have witnessed several elders in my time in the org. that were not the best of examples and it bothered me as well. More than one or two were heavy drinkers of alcohol and neglected their family while still carrying on as elders. And yes, more than one that I knew liked to flirt the sisters--I often wondered what really went on behind the congregation's back. Their higher position seemed to be a cover for them. That kind of conduct was a part of several reasons why I departed from the organization.
Do you know if your sister is also troubled as a result of such things? Obviously it bothers you a lot and with very good reason.
It is a "touchy" subject (pun not intended) and some here may not feel comfortable to discuss such things. You have brought up a very good subject, though, and it deserves to be addressed. Just know that even worse things have been, and are, still carrying on in the society. You may not have heard of the pedophile cases that have risen in the organization and millions of dollars had to be awarded to the victims. Yes, very shocking. But true. The organization is not the nice squeaky clean one as we would like to think.
“The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen nor even touched—
They must be felt with the heart.”
Helen Keller
status offlineTain
#23 [-]
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Apr 6 15 8:59 PM
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Thanks for your comments GoingForth. I have seen some of the same things concerning elders.
Yes, I have heard of the pedophile cases, especially Candace Conti. http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/06/15/12225753-jehovahs-witnesses-ordered-to-pay-more-than-20-million-to-woman-who-said-she-was-sexually-abused?lite
My sister called an uncle from out of state who is an elder. She doesn't know him very well, but she said he was very helpful. He advised her to carry on as usual as if nothing has happened, and ignore the elder. To only leave the Kingdom Hall with a sister when she goes outside, so she has someone with her at all times. He mentioned you never make an accusation against an elder, unless you have 2 or 3 witnesses. He feels that if she goes to the elders that they will make her out to be a troublemaker, and cause her grief. She needs to do this ongoing and he will finally give up.
She is less troubled now and feels like she has a plan.
I'm going to change the title of this thread, so it doesn't stand out so much. I did read Punkofnice's topic where he answered many of the member's questions, and Randy helped him as well. I learned a lot from that, too.
http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/16825/When-I-was-an-Elderplease-ask?page=8#.VSMiHJMWKCQ
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Apr 6 15 11:13 PM
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Hi there Todd and welcome.
It seems that you have already found advice from someone closer to home ... however I have done a little bit of research for you.
I'm not an elder for obvious reasons ...... however the 'two witness' rule seems to apply to most 'wrongdoings' within the WBTS trading as Jehovah's Witnesses. Of course the elder who is trying to head hunt your sister right now ... is not going to allow anyone else to see what he's up to. It's more likely to be a control thing for him, so he's not going to make it obvious what he has planned. I'm not sure if I missed it or not ... but is your brother-in-law aware of what the elder's rather thinly veiled plan involves? Unfortunately if the elder concerned is one of the 'stronger' ones ... as in more controlling even of his own elder cohorts ....... approaching the other elders may (as has already been pointed out) just make your sister look like she's playing up to him. The elder will of course be taken more seriously than your sister and/or your brother-in-law ................. it's just how it works.
As for New York knowing .... that kind of 'wrongdoing' will be kept in-house. They won't need to consult the GB or anyone outside of the hall unless they feel it is necessary .... and something like this would not be considered necessary. The local elders could make life very difficult for your sister, make HER the guilty party and even blame your brother-in-law for not 'controlling' his wife better. In the elder's 'Shepherding the Flock of God' handbook .......... they are advised NOT to leave themselves open to the temptation of 'the sisters' by not meeting alone with them etc ............. I'll see if I can find the relevant section ............ found some info! Comes in handy being able to type fast and have a quick search engine!!! It also comes in handy having the person or persons who very carefully scanned the book and then added it to the internet for us to find!
From Chapter Five - Determining Whether a Judicial Committee Should be Formed ....... includes a list of 'offences', one of which is 'Brazen Conduct' ..... which I would have thought would be appropriate in this case. However .... I am but a mere woman and an apostate at that ... so they're hardly going to take notice of someone deadly like me. \
Continuing to date or pursue a romantic
relationship with a person though not legally
or Scripturally free to marry, despite repeated
counsel and generally after a warning
talk to the congregation.-Ga!. 5:19; 2 Thess. 3:6,
14, 15.
This is where the 'two witnesses' thing comes into effect. It's okay to make an accusation against the elder however your sister would need two witnesses to back her story. Even if hubby was to stand up for her ...... it's unlikely they would take notice of him because he could be supporting his naughty little wife against the fine upstanding elder (hard to stop the sarcasm from dripping out with this lot!). They could twist their little book around to make out that your sister is carrying out an act of 'deliberate, malicious lying; bearing false witness' ..... as in his word against hers.
With regards to the 'two or three witness' rule ....... it comes into play with most, if not all 'wrongdoings' ................. and my assumption would be that depending on the local group of elders, it may be that two witnesses are not enough and three would be better. As with the entire contents of the elders handbook ..... it's open to interpretation and usually is!
Same chapter but further down ...
Evidence Establishing Wrongdoing
37. Even though a Christian has been accused of
wrongdoing serious enough to require judicial action,
a judicial committee should not be formed
unless the wrongdoing has been established.
What kind of evidence is acceptable?
• Confession (admission of wrongdoing), eíther
written or oral, may be accepted as conclusive
proof without other corroborating evidence.
(Josh. 7:19) There must be two witnesses to a
confession, and the confession must be clear
and unambiguous. For example, a statement
from a married Christian that his mate is "Scrípturally
free" would not by itself be viewed as a
c1ear confession of adultery.
A guilty plea entered in court by a Christian as
part of a plea bargain, perhaps on the advice of
an attorney so as to avoid the possibility of a
harsher sentence, would generally not in itself
be viewed as an admission of guilt in the congregation.
• There must be two or tbree eyewitnesses, not
just people repeating hearsay; no action can be
taken if there is only one witness.-Deut. 19: 15;
John 8:17.
Now ... bearing in mind your sister could be classified as being 'a victim of abuse, suffers from depression, or for any other reason is in a delicate emotional state' ... which of course they will whack her in that category because they can ................... they have the following advice in Chapter 4 - Assisting Those Who Are Weak .... under the delicious heading .... 'Cautions Regarding Assisting Sisters' ............. with none of the information needing to be passed onto New York. Or any other Bethel for that matter.
27. Elders and ministerial servants must never
meet alone with a sister not closely related to them
and should avoid becoming the sole confidant of an
individual of the opposite sex who is experiencing
marital problems. This includes lengthy phone conversations.
Of course, this does not mean that it
would be inappropriate for an elder to talk with a sister
while in the full view of others at her home, at
congregation meetings, or in the field service.-w06
9/15 p. 26 par. 7.
28. It is important never to meet alone with a sister
who is a victim of abuse, suffers from depression,
or for any other reason is in a delicate
emotional state. A woman in such an emotional
state may be more vulnerable and may be prone to
develop improper feelings toward an elder meeting
with her. So that this does not occur, it is the course
of wisdom to have different pairs of elders involved
in shepherding such a sister. This would serve as a
protection for the elders, as welI as for the sister, because
it is possible for an elder to develop improper
feelings for a sister he is comforting or counseling.
-Jer. 17:9.
I would like to think that the average elder would not pursue a 'sister' who is already married .... however as pointed out earlier, they are human. They make mistakes. Most wouldn't be so stupid as to chase after a married woman but there's no accounting for taste ... or good sense. The elder who likes your sister may be exercising what he sees to be his 'right' to look around. Your sister should not have to safeguard herself from this man at all ......
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineTain
#25 [-]
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Apr 7 15 5:26 AM
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Andria, good to meet you. I have read many of your posts and enjoy them. Everyone in this thread has been helpful and welcoming.
I have had the 'Shepherding the Flock of God' bookmarked for a few years now and I did read the whole thing. Sometimes it's hard to navigate the whole series of chapters.
Your research and comments are well taken. My sister has an unbelieving husband, so it makes it more complicated. She doesn't want him affected by this whole scenario, as he hasn't wanted to have anything to do with the witnesses. However, he does treat them kindly. She says the elder conducts his bizarre behavior when others are not looking or close by. That's why sticking close to a sister or sitting in rows where there are other elders can be helpful.
This elder from what I have learned is the top "bully" and thinks he's "golden boy."
We'll have to see how this plays out.
Thanks for your research A!
Last Edited By: Tain Apr 7 15 9:33 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlinepunkofnice
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Apr 7 15 6:19 AM
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Tain - "Punk, since it is "scheming" why do the elders get away with this?"
there is no more of an answer to give really. They get away with things because the JW organisation is just made up of men ruling men. there is no god involved, no divinr justice, no detail. Each on situation on it's own merits. The Jws are not god's chosen people. The elders will get away with things the same as politicians and corrupt coppers do.........it's called 'the old pals act'. Hope that answers that for you.
Regards Paul
Read my novel Boomshot (18+)
http://www.amazon.com/Boomshot-Hunt-Killer-Paul-Jackson-ebook/dp/B00VSLG48W/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1428756971&sr=1-1&keywords=boomshot
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
status offlineTain
#27 [-]
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Apr 7 15 9:31 AM
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Thanks for your feedback punkofnice, and yes it makes sense.
status offlinematitalica
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Apr 7 15 4:02 PM
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When I started studying again I knew of a young woman, 21 years old married to a elder who was 46. The gossip that I heard was that this young woman, (and she was drop dead georgeous with a really great body), her husband died in a car accident. And this elder divorced his wife, while he was an elder for adultery on her part. Next thing you know 6 months after this elders divorce he marries this young hot dubbie. Yeah, it was the talk of the congregation but of course everyone went right along with it. And of course there was never any mention of the x wife of the elder....who remained and elder even though he got a divorce. I met him twice and he was a very arrogant asshole, esp. when his hot young trophy wife was by his side.
status offlinewomanbeyondtime
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Apr 7 15 6:03 PM
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Actually having been in the org for 42 years and out in 1999, I can assure you that this woman is accurate, such things go on. If you want to call it scheming, that is a polite term. Ok yes it's ok if it's the woman she would be a scheming Jezebel. If it's the man he will either get sympathy from other elders or a smack on the wrist. It is the worse kind of treachery and the Bible in Malachi condemns it. "covering my alter with tears". etc. Look it up. It is also a treachery in the past in Biblical times that was winked at by other men and still goes on. After all a man could have several wives but a woman would be stoned for the same behavior. The Watchtower society is a very chauvinistic and patriarchal society that is biased in favor of men on all points. They are deficient in understanding of the real principles in the Bible. I myself was disfellowshipped for having sex with my husband of 31 years in the space of 10 days between my divorce and remarrying him. It really did not seem important and he put a lot of pressure on me no doubt just to create the result that he did (of me being disfellowshipped). He was always a lot harder than I was. It was strange as they did not recognize the divorce as scriptural why they should disfellowship me for "fornication" for having sex with my husband of 31 years. Also they did not disfellowship him!! (As I said favoritism towards the husband) Also he had not attended meetings or taken our children to the meetings for 23 years (except for rare occasions and he hated the org and the winesses insanely and would go into tyrades bordering on demonic possession ranting and raving about it all for hours) I am sure he enjoyed going into my last committee meeting and saying to the elders whom he viewd as idiots - "Now you have the law of the Bible, the law of the "faithful and discreet slave" and the law of Caesar which one are you going to follow?" I think they followed the guidance of the Pharisees as it was what they could relate to the best. I am sorry but the whole scenario you relate is just the tip of the iceberg. I was once told by a sister who had gotten a divorce "Just don't have sex with him till he slips up and then you can get out of the marriage". That too is scheming and something I was not going to do. You know I was not like that. I was much too honest and sincere for them and I am so glad I am out. I say let the blind lead the blind and the dead bury their dead. Two weeks after I was df'd I was told that the C.O came to the congregation and just stood on the platform till their was a dead and ominous silence and then said "This congregation does not have Jehovah's spirit". Well he got that right! I would say that the policies of the "society" have encouraged hypocrisy and self-righteousness. It has encouraged scheming. It has encouraged an attitude to "get" someone. It has not encouraged those who are heart broken and sincere and who have emotional problems but allowed the schemers to stay in their midst. So glad to be away from this craziness. I must say that men are predators. Do I sound like a manhater? I can only tell you that I am not. I can say that I have had men agrees with me on this point. Your sister is a lamb and he is the wolf.
status offlinewomanbeyondtime
see the book "People of the Lie" #30 [-]
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Apr 7 15 6:08 PM
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The book People of the Lie" by Gregory Peck makes a good case for what true evil is and worth the time to read
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Apr 7 15 9:29 PM
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Hi, PalmBeating heart hope all's going well with you. Good replies and I appreciated the questions you asked. Take Care
status offlineLocutus
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Apr 7 15 10:13 PM
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"must say that men are predators. Do I sound like a manhater"
WBT:
I disagree strongly. Not all men are predators. That is a hateful sounding generalization, to my ears.
Be prepared to debate, or withdraw this statement.
I would engage in an open debate on the matter if you would agree to such.
T
status offline1moxjdub
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Apr 8 15 12:26 AM
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Just my 2 cents for what it's worth Tain. I am very sceptical of your 35 years of being a witness. And it's ok I'm not going to attack you or
anything but 1st of all if you had been in for 35 years you must have heard the 2 witnesses thing I don't know at least 6.000 times.
Whenever there is talk about "gross sin" and "reproof" or all the other catch phrases used to keep the rank and file in line you will hear
talk about there needing to be 2 witnesses. Every JW and ex JW knows that. Also if you read the shepherd the flock book as you say you have-
I've never read it but I'm guessing-it has to be in there at least 300 times.
Also no current or ex JW that I know of refers to the Society or the GB as New York. It's probably just habit but there are certain
phrases that they use on a very regular basis and New York isn't used to describe the hierachy. Just making an observation that's all
not judging you or anything.
status offlinepalmel1234
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Apr 8 15 5:25 AM
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Moxjdub I agree with everything you’ve said.
Tain, forgive me I did not mean to be harsh with you, it’s just a little hard to believe what you say when it really doesn’t sound like you were a JW for 35 years.
- You have some of the terms right, but not all of them.
- You ask questions that any JW already knows.
- And your story of elders that seduce married sisters is a little hard to believe. Now, I know there are some messed up things that happen in the organization so if this situation happened once, that’s quite plausible. But saying that it has happened exactly the same way, not once, not twice, but now it’s happening a third time, all in the same town, well, that’s a stretch.
- Not to mention you claim to know exactly how these elders get these sisters disfellowshipped. Again, it's a little hard to believe you would know things that only the elders involved in the judicial committee would know. Rereading your initial post you said
either by phone calls or meeting somewhere outside the congregation, he tells
the elders and gets her disfellowshipped through a series of judicial
meetings.
When you are disfellowshipped, there is only one judical meeting - there are no "series of judicial meetings"
I’m not sure what your story is . . . I could believe that you have a sister that's a JW and it could very well be that an elder is purusing her, but all the other stuff you've added in just damages your credibility. Whatever it is, just come out and say it, you’ll get plenty of help and support here. I don't mind answering questions of anybody that comes on this forum, but nobody likes it when they feel like they're being jerked around. smiley: eyes
Edited for formatting issues.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/179443/working_mom.html
Last Edited By: palmel1234 Apr 8 15 5:36 AM. Edited 3 times.
status offlineTain
#35 [-]
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Apr 8 15 5:36 AM
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matitalica, I can see that happening.
womanbeyondtime, thanks for your comments. Linda, too!
1moxjdub, one of the other members in this thread already made your point about "two witnesses." I actually called it 2 or 3 witnesses. And yes I had been in for over 35 years. What do I have to gain to make that up? I have always called it NY, because that's how I want to refer to it. I don't know why certain words or phrases have to be so technical with some members. I read that you are not judging me, but that's what in fact you are doing. If I hadn't been one of JW's I would say so.
I came here for help and I received it.
status offlinebirdwoman2
#36 [-]
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Apr 8 15 5:48 AM
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Hello Tain.
You said:
I actually called it 2 or 3 witnesses.
No, you didn't say that.
You said:
I'm not positive, but I think you need 3 witnesses.
You said:
I don't know why certain words or phrases have to be so technical with some members. I read that you are not judging me, but that's what in fact you are doing.
Well, yeah - we do pick up on inconsistencies. We can't help it - this forum has been targeted by people in the past, who are not exJWs, with bad results for our forum members. You are right - we are judging you because this is our safe haven and we want to keep it that way. Nothing personal, man...it is just that way.
I came here for help and I received it.
Good. That is what this forum is for.
Stick around - there is much to be learned here.
“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”
- Susan B. Anthony
Last Edited By: birdwoman2 Apr 8 15 5:51 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineTain
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palmel1234 wrote:
Tain, forgive me I did not mean to be harsh with you, it’s just a little hard to believe what you say when it really doesn’t sound like you were a JW for 35 years.
It is true, for over 35 years. I previously said I have nothing to gain.
And your story of elders that seduce married sisters is a little hard to believe. Now, I know there are some messed up things that happen in the organization so if this situation happened once, that’s quite plausible. But saying that it has happened exactly the same way, not once, not twice, but now it’s happening a third time, all in the same town, well, that’s a stretch.
This is absolutely true and we had another couple in the congregation, an ex-elder and sister that did the same thing.
- Not to mention you claim to know exactly how these elders get these sisters disfellowshipped. Again, it's a little hard to believe you would know things that only the elders involved in the judicial committee would know. Rereading your initial post you said
either by phone calls or meeting somewhere outside the congregation, he tells
the elders and gets her disfellowshipped through a series of judicial
meetings.
What I meant is I'm grouping a couple of experiences together when I say a series of judicial meetings. I should not have worded that way.
I also mentioned that "I didn't know all of the details."
When you are disfellowshipped, there is only one judical meeting - there are no "series of judicial meetings"
Not true! I was disf 20 years ago and I had 2 judicial meetings, another one was called because I asked for it.
I’m not sure what your story is . . . I could believe that you have a sister that's a JW and it could very well be that an elder is purusing her, but all the other stuff you've added in just damages your credibility. Whatever it is, just come out and say it, you’ll get plenty of help and support here. I don't mind answering questions of anybody that comes on this forum, but nobody likes it when they feel like they're being jerked around. smiley: eyes
Edited for formatting issues.
I'm not jerking anyone around and I'm very sad that you feel this way.
status offlineTain
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womanbeyondtime wrote:
Actually having been in the org for 42 years and out in 1999, I can assure you that this woman is accurate, such things go on. If you want to call it scheming, that is a polite term. Ok yes it's ok if it's the woman she would be a scheming Jezebel. If it's the man he will either get sympathy from other elders or a smack on the wrist. It is the worse kind of treachery and the Bible in Malachi condemns it. "covering my alter with tears". etc. Look it up. It is also a treachery in the past in Biblical times that was winked at by other men and still goes on. After all a man could have several wives but a woman would be stoned for the same behavior. The Watchtower society is a very chauvinistic and patriarchal society that is biased in favor of men on all points. They are deficient in understanding of the real principles in the Bible. I myself was disfellowshipped for having sex with my husband of 31 years in the space of 10 days between my divorce and remarrying him. It really did not seem important and he put a lot of pressure on me no doubt just to create the result that he did (of me being disfellowshipped). He was always a lot harder than I was. It was strange as they did not recognize the divorce as scriptural why they should disfellowship me for "fornication" for having sex with my husband of 31 years. Also they did not disfellowship him!! (As I said favoritism towards the husband) Also he had not attended meetings or taken our children to the meetings for 23 years (except for rare occasions and he hated the org and the winesses insanely and would go into tyrades bordering on demonic possession ranting and raving about it all for hours) I am sure he enjoyed going into my last committee meeting and saying to the elders whom he viewd as idiots - "Now you have the law of the Bible, the law of the "faithful and discreet slave" and the law of Caesar which one are you going to follow?" I think they followed the guidance of the Pharisees as it was what they could relate to the best. I am sorry but the whole scenario you relate is just the tip of the iceberg. I was once told by a sister who had gotten a divorce "Just don't have sex with him till he slips up and then you can get out of the marriage". That too is scheming and something I was not going to do. You know I was not like that. I was much too honest and sincere for them and I am so glad I am out. I say let the blind lead the blind and the dead bury their dead. Two weeks after I was df'd I was told that the C.O came to the congregation and just stood on the platform till their was a dead and ominous silence and then said "This congregation does not have Jehovah's spirit". Well he got that right! I would say that the policies of the "society" have encouraged hypocrisy and self-righteousness. It has encouraged scheming. It has encouraged an attitude to "get" someone. It has not encouraged those who are heart broken and sincere and who have emotional problems but allowed the schemers to stay in their midst. So glad to be away from this craziness. I must say that men are predators. Do I sound like a manhater? I can only tell you that I am not. I can say that I have had men agrees with me on this point. Your sister is a lamb and he is the wolf.womanbeyondtime, thanks for your support. My sister was also told that her experience is "the tip of the iceberg." Our uncle told her that there are really gross things going on in congregations, much worse than what she is going through right now. He wasn't downplaying her experience with this elder, but helping her to appreciate that it takes time for the elders "true colors" to come out; sometimes years.
For those of you that question my honesty or sincerity, perhaps it's because I didn't like sounding like everyone else in the organization. When I hear comments such as: "I appreciated this scripture.....the friends....the truth....I was so encouraged.....wholesome association...how long have you been in "the truth"....bro. & sister...zealous....worldly....and a big NO DOUBT was used in talks and in the literature, especially the WT.
Even the talks to me were nauseating. The sisters giving talks were not natural or realistic. Once in a while I would hear a sister give a talk that I thought was a natural setting, and natural wording.
I am not here to hurt your community. I honestly wanted help to pass on to my sis. I will probably lurk more than I will post.
ETA: Sentence.
Last Edited By: Tain Apr 8 15 11:35 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlinePapillon1960
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Hi Todd! Your sister is in a pickle, to be sure. I am not sure that there is anything you can do for her but be there for her if she gets too stressed out by the situation and needs to talk. That may just be the opportunity for you to tell her that she has aligned herself with an "old boys club" and the elders can do whatever and get away with it. Maybe instead of trying to help her tap dance around the situation, maybe you could suggest she take another look at her being in such a so called religion where men in authority are allowed to behave in such a disgraceful way while they will disfellowship her in a hot minute if she smoked a cigarette. There is no equity in this cult.
She could try to set him up by asking to speak to him in private while having two sisters waiting in the wings to bust him when he gets frisky, but I am really not too enthusiastic about anything that allows anyone to stay in this dangerous and mind-controlling cult. So like I said, you can be sure to be a good brother and be there for her, no matter what happens. Please let us know how it turns out. She is lucky to have you as a brother. Love and hugs-Michele
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Hi Tain, I'm usually the skeptical one, but I wasn't skeptical of you. I"ve heard of whole congregations being shut down due to mass wrongdoing by elders and such, so your story may be true, too. I hope you continue to hang around. No one means to pick on you, it's just that we've had our share of trolls on here, they try to pass themselves off as ex-jws, but we can tell by their wording that they aren't what they say they are, they'll say church instead of kingdom hall, things like that. I have to admit, your stating three witnesses instead of two did get me to question, though. Anyway, don't take it personally, we've just been hit before and are wary.
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Questions For My Sister
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offlineTain
Questions For My Sister
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Apr 3 15 8:11 AM
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Question For Ex-Elders:
I used to be a witness, but faded. I have wondered why elders are able to manipulate, taking a married sister for his wife. Let's say he's single, lost his wife in death, and sees a married sister he is attracted to and wants for his wife. He's not attracted to single sisters. So, he makes it known to her by his actions he's interested and manipulates her emotionally within the congregation. He continues to do this until she has feelings for him. He's hoping she will contact him, so that it appears she's the one that is coming on to him. Therefore, either by phone calls or meeting somewhere outside the congregation, he tells the elders and gets her disfellowshipped through a series of judicial meetings. They marry after she is divorced from her unbelieving husband or a brother. I have seen this happen in several congregations, but I don't always know the details. Does New York condone this behavior and obviously they know it's going on? It appears that sisters in this situation take the brunt of criticism, so that the elder or men appear as victims in the congregation. It takes two to tangle, but the sister is criticized predominantly. I assume he is removed as an elder, but still in good standing? I also assume that since sisters are submissive, this is why they are disfellowshipped and he isn't? Appears elders have a lot of power in what they can do.
If this has been answered previously, please direct me to the topic or if I posted this in the wrong forum, feel free to move it.
I am new here and welcome your comments.
Todd
Last Edited By: Tain Apr 6 15 9:04 PM. Edited 2 times.
status offlineHumbleLove
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image Todd and Welcome to the forum,
I am not an ex-elder but I wanted to say hi. I did check the Search feature and I didn't find anything that was exactly like your question. It doesn't mean there isn't a thread somewhere it just means I was unable to locate it. I wasn't a JW, but I myself came here
in search for answers. I just wanted to say this forum is filled with many knowledgeable people. Be patient and your questions will be answered. It might take a few days. We do have some ex-elders on the forum. In the meantime feel free to browse through the
threads there are many interesting subjects. If you like music I definitely recommend you check out the music section. If humor is your thing...check out the Humor section.
I hope you enjoy your time here.
status offlineTain
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HumbleLove, thanks for the welcome and your suggestions. I did do a search and I saw similar topics, but nothing like what I have seen. I am really looking forward to the responses when ex-elder members have time.
status offlineCacky
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There are at least two former elders on this site, so hang on and they will get to you. Welcome to the board.
status offlineGoingForth
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Depending on where you are and where the ex-elders are--often there is a large time difference since this forum is visited by many throughout the various time zones.
There are many strange things that go on in various congregations--we were taught that everyone in the organization are of the highest order of morals--but unfortunately that is not always the case--that applies to elders too.
“The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen nor even touched—
They must be felt with the heart.”
Helen Keller
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Yes, as already mentioned, don't take anything personally because everyone is busy.
Keep doing your research and from other sites...because others,; not always posting here - the have shared their stories of recovery and they are all loved for doing such.
What I find interesting in how many newer members are interested in this subject, I know I began my research because of having been abused by religion...so, it's all interesting to me.
status offlinepunkofnice
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Hello Todd and welcome.
I am an ex-elder and this was frowned upon at one time as 'scheming' but it happens. I didn't see this happen but what l do know is, no matter where you are, men are men and women are women......and they do what humans do. It's just that JWs are not supposed to do things but still do.
It is after all just another stupid cult filled with humans who do what humans do.
Regards Paul
Read my novel Boomshot (18+)
http://www.amazon.com/Boomshot-Hunt-Killer-Paul-Jackson-ebook/dp/B00VSLG48W/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1428756971&sr=1-1&keywords=boomshot
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
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Hi Todd,
Welcome to the forum.
I was born and raised JW and disfellowshipped at age 18, and
as far as your question goes - I've never seen anything like what you described.
And you say you've seen this exact scenario happen more than once? That's very strange.
How long were you a JW?
A lot of the folks on here have been out of the organization for many years, so
we aren't always up to date on the latest policies, but it does
seem there are double standards for men, in particular elders.
It seemed to me when a girl got pregnant out of wedlock no matter how repentant she is,
she was disfellowshipped. My dad is an elder, and I remember as a kid one time a young teenage sister
called our house and asked to speak to my dad.
I couldn't hear what she was saying, but my dad was saying things like "No, we know."
"No, we can't." At the next meeting it was announced she was disfellowshipped. I figured out she had
called my dad to plead her case.
I know of another case where a guy got a worldly girl pregnant, and was only put on private reproof.
As to why elders are able to do things like what you described, well, you know no one is allowed to question
the elder's decisions. I'm sure one of the former elders will come along and shed more light on the matter,
but I'm certain involving the society in a local congregational matter wouldn't even occur to the
local congregation.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/179443/working_mom.html
status offlineTain
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Thanks Cacky & Linda.cavymadness76263!
GoingForth, that is my thought. The WT. literature preaches no adultery, no fornication, no lying, no deceiving and we all know the rest. It's one of the main reasons I quit going, because of the hypocrisy of these elders. They disfellowship members for "some" of the very things they are doing and they don't care what the other witnesses think of them. It's a narcissistic attitude.
Punk, since it is "scheming" why do the elders get away with this? As I previously stated, New York has to know this is going on. You're right, men are men and women are women. I elevated the JW's to a much higher standard until I saw what was going on.
I "had" been a JW for over 35 years, palmel1234, but quit going 4 years ago. An elder from a neighboring congregation married a sister after she got divorced, and he got divorced as well. He was not disfellowshipped, but she was. Same scenario in another congregation in the same area. So if both are divorced and marry each other, why doesn't the ex-elder get disfellowshipped? Is it because men are supposed to be superior to women or protected?
My sister is going through a similar situation, only she is married to an unbeliever. She's very beautiful and an elder is making a play for her. I am trying to help her, so she doesn't succumb to this scumbag. I believe her husband is a much better person than the elder. I told her to ignore him, as if nothing is going on. Advised to leave soon after the meetings are over with, so he can't get to her. Is that enough? Is there something else she can do, besides quitting the congregation. She doesn't want to do that at this point. We have relatives that are witnesses, and that's why she continues to go.
ETA: By the way thanks for your comments, because this is helpful.
Last Edited By: Tain Apr 4 15 4:35 PM. Edited 1 times.
status offlineHumbleLove
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I am sorry to hear that your sister is being pursued by an Elder. But, if your sister is happy in her marriage there shouldn't be a problem. She should be easily able to refrain from letting the Elder lead her astray if her own marriage is strong. How does your sister
feel about the fact that this Elder is doing this? Does it bother her? Do you think there's a possibility that she would leave her current husband for the Elder? I hope she doesn't succumb.
status offlineTain
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To answer your question HumbleLove, she is shocked by the elder's behavior. She asked me if she should go to 2 elders about the other elder's behavior and I told her I didn't think it would do any good. They would just laugh it off and say it's her imagination. She loves and supports her husband, but she's also a very sensitive person.
status offlineHumbleLove
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I don't think you have anything to worry about as far as your sister is concerned. Now as for the Elder...it's actually too bad that she is having to deal with that at all. After all since he took the role of Elder he is supposed to setting a responsible example. I am sure
that he knows your sister is married. Elder or no....people should not be pursuing anyone they know to be married. The very fact that she wants to turn him in tells me that she is definitely not interested in any shape or form. If she was she wouldn't be bringing it out
in the open. It's actually too bad that she can't turn him in and have him face consequences. The two witness rule would have to be in effect wouldn't it? If she went to the Elders wouldn't she need two to say it happened?
status offlinepalmel1234
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Humble is right, Todd,
If your sister is happy in her marriage there shouldn't be a problem.
Especially if she's seen what's happened to two other sisters in neighboring congregations,
she definitely should be able to not let this elder do anything to get her in trouble.
If she's not responding to his advances in any way shape or form - unless he flat out lies, how could he get her in trouble?
Thinking about it some more, I think the way these elders are avoiding getting disfellowshipped is because they tell the elders
and act like they're sorry for their part in the matter.
The guy I mentioned earlier that was put on private reproof for getting a worldly girl pregnant,
the way he avoided getting disfellowshipped was because he went to the elders and told them himself.
I also know of a couple that had sex before marriage and they avoided getting disfellowshipped because
they went to the elders and confessed what they had done. If you report yourself there is a good chance you won't be disfellowshipped
but just put on reproof.
No doubt being elders, these two men know what they need to do to avoid getting disfellowshipped,
whereas the sisters didn't, or the fact that the elder confessed it first made it seem like he was repentant
and she wasn't.
So that's probably why those sisters got disfellowshipped but the elders didn't.
It does seem that you get rewarded for telling on yourself and others.
So I think your sister SHOULD go to the elders and tell them what's going on.
In fact, if she has proof - text messages or phone calls she's recorded, that's even better.
The only way she can avoid this turning into something bad is if she gets to the elders first.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/179443/working_mom.html
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Hey, Punkie. good to see you posted to this newer member that has a lot of questions smiley: smokin
I remember when you first posted...we all did one day and found a sense of recovery.
I would hope to always encourage these new members to continue posting.
It's not just me from the JW insanity...I deal with other religions too and that's always an adventure into how I think of anything spiritual.
status offlineTain
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Apr 5 15 6:10 PM
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HumbleLove wrote:
I don't think you have anything to worry about as far as your sister is concerned. Now as for the Elder...it's actually too bad that she is having to deal with that at all. After all since he took the role of Elder he is supposed to setting a responsible example. I am sure
that he knows your sister is married. Elder or no....people should not be pursuing anyone they know to be married. The very fact that she wants to turn him in tells me that she is definitely not interested in any shape or form. If she was she wouldn't be bringing it out
in the open. It's actually too bad that she can't turn him in and have him face consequences. The two witness rule would have to be in effect wouldn't it? If she went to the Elders wouldn't she need two to say it happened?
Yes, he knows she's married. I'm not positive, but I think you need 3 witnesses. In my opinion even if there are witnesses to what he is doing, most members will not go against an elder. I'm waiting for Punk to weigh in on this.
status offlineTain
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palmel1234 wrote:
Humble is right, Todd,
If your sister is happy in her marriage there shouldn't be a problem.
Especially if she's seen what's happened to two other sisters in neighboring congregations,
she definitely should be able to not let this elder do anything to get her in trouble.
If she's not responding to his advances in any way shape or form - unless he flat out lies, how could he get her in trouble?
Thinking about it some more, I think the way these elders are avoiding getting disfellowshipped is because they tell the elders
and act like they're sorry for their part in the matter.
The guy I mentioned earlier that was put on private reproof for getting a worldly girl pregnant,
the way he avoided getting disfellowshipped was because he went to the elders and told them himself.
I also know of a couple that had sex before marriage and they avoided getting disfellowshipped because
they went to the elders and confessed what they had done. If you report yourself there is a good chance you won't be disfellowshipped
but just put on reproof.
No doubt being elders, these two men know what they need to do to avoid getting disfellowshipped,
whereas the sisters didn't, or the fact that the elder confessed it first made it seem like he was repentant
and she wasn't.
So that's probably why those sisters got disfellowshipped but the elders didn't.
It does seem that you get rewarded for telling on yourself and others.
So I think your sister SHOULD go to the elders and tell them what's going on.
In fact, if she has proof - text messages or phone calls she's recorded, that's even better.
The only way she can avoid this turning into something bad is if she gets to the elders first.
Thanks for your comments. I'm still waiting for Punkie to comment.
status offlineGoingForth
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Apr 5 15 9:02 PM
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@ Tain:
Thanks for your comments. I'm still waiting for Punkie to comment.
Welcome to the board Tain. "Punkie" is Punkofnice--many of us here refer to him in a loving way as Punkie and he has answered you several posts back.
Here it is:
Hello Todd and welcome.
I am an ex-elder and this was frowned upon at one time as 'scheming' but it happens. I didn't see this happen but what l do know is, no matter where you are, men are men and women are women......and they do what humans do. It's just that JWs are not supposed to do things but still do.
It is after all just another stupid cult filled with humans who do what humans do.
“The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen nor even touched—
They must be felt with the heart.”
Helen Keller
status offlineLeyDelMonte
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Apr 5 15 10:58 PM
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Perhaps I don't understand the scenario very well, but I don't think I've ever heard of anything remotely similar to this happening. I have heard of instances where an elder falls in love with someone other than his wife and it goes public, but nothing of an elder manipulating to such extreme and actually getting what he wants. A friend of mine once told me that a married elder confessed to her that he was in love with her, but that's as far as it went and she decided not to go to the elders about it. If this happens, I don't think it's too common.
status offlineTain
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Apr 6 15 5:18 AM
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GoingForth thank you. I saw Punkofnice's comment previously, but I was hoping he would offer more detail to my questions, and I did reply to him. Perhaps that's all he wants to post.
LeyDelMonte, howdy, "scheming" in this area has been more prevalent.
status offlineTain
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Apr 6 15 5:25 AM
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Tain wrote:
Punk, since it is "scheming" why do the elders get away with this? As I previously stated, New York has to know this is going on. You're right, men are men and women are women. I elevated the JW's to a much higher standard until I saw what was going on.
GoingForth, my response to Punkie above, but was hoping he would answer everyone's questions in this thread. I've never been an elder and don't have the answers. As I said I think you need 3 witnesses and many times they don't want to go against an elder. Also, I have heard that elders protect one another.
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GoingForth, my response to Punkie above, but was hoping he would answer everyone's questions in this thread. I've never been an elder and don't have the answers. As I said I think you need 3 witnesses and many times they don't want to go against an elder. Also, I have heard that elders protect one another.
Tain, how often did you go to meetings?
If you've been a JW for 35 years, you KNOW you need 2 not 3 witnesses to a sin.
You should recall the scripture that was read many times at the meetings that says you need two witnesses.
You know elders and their families get away with things that other people
in the congregation don't get away with, and you know men and women are treated differently.
You said yourself that elders protect one another and no one wants to go against an elder.
If the governing body - or as you refer to them as "New York" - has to know what's going on,
and nothing has happened, well that should tell you something right there.
The only person that has asked any questions in this thread is you,
and your questions have been answered. I'm not sure what else you want to know.
It's a fucked up cult, run by imperfect men that do fucked up things.
And sometimes there is no answer as to why things are the way they are.
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Any ex jdubs from the Philippines?
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offlineabby7149
Any ex jdubs from the Philippines?
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Just out of curiosity, anyone here from the Philippines? I'm from the US but have been living in the Philippines for about 2 years now and while I see Kingdom Halls around, I have never seen any jdubs going door to door. Seems really weird to me, especially since the last place we lived was quite a small city and we literally lived across the street from the KH, but they never ever came to our door. My husband, who has lived here his entire life, has never had JWs come to the door either. I've never seen magazines or JW literature left at hospitals or coffee shops or anywhere else. If it weren't for the Halls, I'd question their existence here. Do they do things differently here?
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Do they do things differently here?
Abby, you may want to check out the laws in the Philippines on religious conversion and proselytizing. I don't know if there are legal restrictions in that country or not.
Indonesia, for example, has laws concerning religious behavior- even though the JWs are a recognized religious sect in Indonesia, it is expressly forbidden for any religion to actively promote their religious doctrine to differing sects or religions.
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I just checked it out, but nope, that's not it.
"The 1987 Constitution of the Philippines declares: The separation of Church and State shall be inviolable. (Article II, Section 6), and, No law shall be made respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. The free exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship, without discrimination or preference, shall forever be allowed. No religious test shall be required for the exercise of civil or political rights. (Article III, Section 5)....."
Hmm...
status offlineHumbleLove
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Hi I found your question interesting. I couldn't find anything that actually stated why or why not JW's go door to door in the Phillipines. I did find this article that talks about how preaching work gets done in a variety of ways. It's about Philipines.
Here is the link http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/302003012. I haven't finished reading the whole thing yet. But, so far I haven't seen anywhere where it answers your specific question.
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