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I've just been disfellowshipped!
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offlinemaksutov
I've just been disfellowshipped!
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Apparently it was announced last night. I was not informed (for 'legal reasons'), but they phoned my dad and told him. I understand it is due to my apostate book.
I suppose my dad and in-laws will cut me off now, but we'll have to wait and see.
Free e-Book: Jehovah's Witnesses - Reasons for Leaving (and for not joining).
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status offlineauth
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Haven't you been away from the congregation for years now?
Who was keeping such close tabs on you to know that you wrote such a book?
I guess it was through spyfacebook or something like that?
I hope your dad doesn't cut you off.
You can certainy call him and talk to him as if you know nothing about it.
After all, you weren't there and they didn't inform you.
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
status offlinepalmel1234
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Sorry that happened, Maksutov,
How do you feel about it?
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status offlinemaksutov
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auth wrote:
Haven't you been away from the congregation for years now?
Who was keeping such close tabs on you to know that you wrote such a book?
I guess it was through spyfacebook or something like that?
I hope your dad doesn't cut you off.
You can certainy call him and talk to him as if you know nothing about it.
After all, you weren't there and they didn't inform you.
Yes, the last meeting I attended was April 2010. I gave an earlier copy of my book to my sister-in-law several months ago (before I published it to the public), as she had been asking me about my reasons for leaving (she has 'studied' on and off for twenty years). I understand she showed it to my brother, who has recently been 'studying' (he was born in but never baptised), and that he showed it to my dad, who is a dyed-in-the-wool JW. Exactly how the elders got to know about it I don't know. My dad knows that I know, because he's the one who told my wife, who told me. My dad said he needs some 'time to think' about what to do now - I presume that means he will try to find a loophole in the shunning rules, but knowing him like I do, I would be surprised if he didn't cut me off.
My mum died two years ago, so the only other family members I have still in are my in-laws - my MIL has been a JW for thirty years, and my FIL is 'studying' (and has also read the early edition of my book). I have no idea how they will respond.
palmel1234 wrote:
How do you feel about it?
Not sure really! Hearing the news made my heart beat a little faster, which was weird, but I don't really feel much of anything now. Of course I knew there was a risk of this happening when I published the book, so it was not a huge surprise, but still a little shocking I suppose that they can be such blatant bullies when someone exposes them.
Free e-Book: Jehovah's Witnesses - Reasons for Leaving (and for not joining).
Russ.
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Not sure really! Hearing the news made my heart beat a little faster, which was weird, but I don't really feel much of anything now. Of course I knew there was a risk of this happening when I published the book, so it was not a huge surprise, but still a little shocking I suppose that they can be such blatant bullies when someone exposes them.
I guess we all know things like this are bound to happen sooner or later, but
when they actually do happen, we are still a little hurt.
Hopefully your dad won't shun you.
I found this site recently that has a lot of good bible quotes as to what
the scriptures say about shunning a wrong doer.
If you want to go that route with your dad, it might help him not feel so guilty
about talking to you.
In particular I thought this part was very good
1 Corinthians does not say to totally shun a brother who is a wrong doer, rather it says to quit mixing in company with such a person and not eat with such a man and hence refers to socialising as friends.
This statement does not state that this type of person must never be spoken to, and is specific as to who these words apply to. This advice is in regards to a person called a brother who is a wrongdoer. No indication is given that they should be avoided many years later when they are no longer recognised as a Jehovahs Witness. Nor does it say to shun a person who has stopped their wrongdoing.
I still talk to my JW dad from time to time, but I never get my hopes up.
I used to get hurt because I'd want to talk and he would cut the conversation short.
Now, I manage my expectations. If we have a 20 minute conversation, that's good,
but if we have a 30 second conversation I enjoy that as well.
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I had no idea you published a book. I though about writing about my JW experience other than on forums but fear being "exposed". Keep us posted how things work out with your family.
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Congratulations, Mak.
The elders have acknowledged your power.
Your book challenges the power of the WTS and by disfellowshipping you, they reveal their fear of you.
smiley: smile
“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”
- Susan B. Anthony
status offlinejerryjax99
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Wow, well we are here for you as you know. I would love to see your book if you have a link. You will have a weight lifted off your shoulders now too.
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I am puzzled
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offlineneed2know
I am puzzled
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Hi All
I am sure that some one on this site could give me an answer to a question that is concerning me. I have been studying with witnesses lately, and one thing that i have learnt is in the congregation there is an elder that has a "gay" aon.
Of course the son is not a JW, but according to the elder he still has his son in his life, and does not shun him because of his sexuality. I would like to believe this, but something tells me it is not true, as this elder is very very active in
the congregation. I would have thought having a gay son would have caused him huge problems with being an elder. Am i right? Is this elder just having me on to make out to me that JWs are not as strict as everyone makes out, and
they accept a lot more than we realize.
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He could speak to his gay son if his son was never a JW. That's one of the ironies of the religion. Despite the 'encouragement' children often get to become baptized at a young age it is not in their best interest.
However, having a gay son would usually count against him when the congregation is appointing elders. Elders should ideally have 'pioneer' wives and children all 'in the truth'.
So that part is a little strange for me. Maybe his son was never a JW and came out as gay while he was already an elder. That scenario would make the most sense to me.
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
status offlinehalf banana
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Hi Need to know and welcome.
Just a thought since you are studying with JWs... doesn’t the fact that homosexuality is not a matter of choice, give an indication that this JW teaching is made up by people who just want conformity at all costs? How could God exclude people on the basis of their natural inclinations?
What is your thinking on it?
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status offlinematitalica
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Depends, it could just be a gossip mill run amoke, depending on the congregation the elder holds a lot of power and therefor can get away with more, or the kid was never a jw and turned gay. Or the son is a step son?
The ironic thing is if the son was a jw and turned gay, he would be disfellowshipped and the elder dad would have to cut off communication with him, along with every one else in the congregation, but he wasn't a jw and so it's ok for everyone to talk to him.
Why on earth are you studying with these people, (feel free to PM me if you wish).
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Well I can relate being the gay son of an elder and pioneer. I did soon after get DF'd and he voluntarily stepped down...which is bad since he would of been removed as an elder due to my lifestyle. A big thing is that I was still living at home, if a son/daughter is not at home the elder won't have any repercussions since they are not in his household. Pretty twisted still...
status offlineneed2know
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Thanks everyone for the replies. I think from what you have said that it is definitely a case of twisting the rules to suit. I really dont know but i think that the son was never a baptized witness, however the elder and his wife were. (they are now divorced though) It just seems so strange that he is able to hold such a position when they have so many "rules" for every one else. This isnt the only issue that he appears to have exceptions with either, and it makes me wonder how they can allow these transgressions, so to speak. I know one doesnt have to look too hard to find members of any religion that are hypocritical, and i probably shouldnt judge jw's on this, but it is a pretty big issue really seeing as they have such strong views on sexuality. In answer to your question Matitalica the reason i am studying with them is, as you would be aware, once they visit, well it is rather hard to say no. And i also enjoy learning the Bible, it is fascinating for me, but i am not real sure about their man made interpretations of the scriptures and their apparent bending and twisting of some. :(
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Been a year seeking closure
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offlineSoCalman
Been a year seeking closure
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I am not even going to pretend my case was extreme, but I do need to get a few things of my chest. I was born and raised as a JW. However, I did not buy into the religion and mostly stayed for family unity, but as some of you may have experienced living a lie eats away at you. Last year the stress of being a JW got somewhat debilitating and I had to go to the emergency room. It was at that point that I knew I had to cut ties with my lie. When I finally showed my true colors the Elders were utterly shocked and formed a judicial committee. The funny thing was I didn't even know that they were "judging" me until later. However, to prevent anymore pain of my transition I never officially cut ties with them. At that point they knew my "apostasy" and I was expecting to be disfellowshipped, but that never happened. Apparently my father got involved and managed to pull a few strings to avoid the shame that it would bring. I guess that is what I have not been able to let go of since I have seen people be disfellowshipped for less. It made me angry that even in this thing they could be so hypocritical. Maybe I am wrong in my anger, but this is how I feel. Luckily for me my family still talks to me even if everyone else sees as black sheep. Anyways sorry for the long post.
status offlinesolitaire
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Hello there and welcome SoCal!!
Anyways sorry for the long post
Believe me your post is miniscule compared with many of our posts when we first found this place lol!!
You are so right in saying that living a lie, even with the best intentions, has a negative effect on our emotional wellbeing......and in your case your stress levels outed themselves!!
You already knew that the jw's did not have the truth (or anything resembling it!!)......so I would not be too hard on yourself, or your father, for playing them at their own game.....remember, the whole d/f'ing fiasco is their rule not yours.....and if it means that you can still talk and interact with your loved ones, then I say good for you!!!
So many here would love to be able to be with loved ones, and your father seems to have managed just that!!! I do wonder how he must feel in his heart however, knowing that he has manipulated the org, and played them at their own game......maybe he has his own cognitive dissonance going on in there somewhere......lets hope he listens to his mind and doubts eventually, and joins you!!!
imo there can only be one of two reasons why he intervened to stop your d/f'ing.....1) he believes he can manipulate gods rules....or 2) he realises that they are mens rules, and there to be manipulated!!
I truly believe it must be the 2nd.....in which case there is hope for your dad to wake up to the gb's mind control too!!
Good to have you here
Sam
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
Last Edited By: solitaire Apr 17 15 6:35 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlinehalf banana
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Firstly SoCalman, a big hello and welcome to the site! You are suffering the consequences of having been brought up in the confusing world of the JW cult...so we all know what it’s about.
You want closure (that means you are from North America!) The sentiment is clear; you want to put an end to the loose ends of having been mentally messed about with. You want to get your life in order and free from the Borg.
We were taught to obey not to think or reason, just believe and obey. In that way it appears to make the JW community all smiles and everyone smugly serene, like everyone there is on the same happy pills. Real life has its ups and downs but demands realistic goals and values and NOT being dictated to. One major problem facing all ex JWs is the very matter that the cult obligations as we understood them did not allow us to determine our own course in life and as a result we are initially not very good at knowing how to be free humans.
You have family; does that involve a wife and children? I suggest that whatever you do, ensure that you make it a priority to give them, the security they need and afterwards slowly resolve the other issues.
Keep posting and discussing...wishing you well as you recover your health and your freedom.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
status offlinemaksutov
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Living a lie certainly takes its toll. I tried to carry on going to meetings after I'd admitted to myself that I no longer believed, but I only managed one meeting! I just couldn't stand it. I can understand how forcing yourself to carry on could make you end up in the ER. It really is crazy that simply admitting that you don't believe makes you a wicked apostate worthy of shunning in the eyes of JWs. Sorry you had to deal with that crap - even if it turned out relatively OK in the end, it still sucks that they even think that way.
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Welcome, SoCal. Good to have you here. I know what its like to live that lie. In my case, I was deeply depressed because the guilt and disgust at myself for being a hypocrite and the anger at the Society for making me be a hypocrite. Its a wonder I didn't end up in the ER. After I finally walked away completely (after hanging around the edges for a couple years) I felt a heck of a lot better. Like you, I was never DF'd, not even after it was widely known that I was living in sin with my now hubby. Try not to be too hard on yourself. You had no choice in how you were raised. You went along because that was what you had to do.
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Hello and welcome. Don't be so hard on yourself. I hope things go well for you.
status offlineSoCalman
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The truth is I have been angry for the first 23 years of my life I was a JW for about 12 of those I was a non-believer. I know I would have left sooner except my family was always what I would call the more "liberal" type of JW. Where other JW's would talk shit my parents would be more forgiving, more understanding, and willing to forget the sins of those who repented. Looking back perhaps that was why I tolerated being in so long. However, that doesn't change the fact that I am angry how I was not prepared for the real world. When I began college there was always this resistance from members since they were afraid I would leave. In the end I was even angry that they thought college caused me to leave instead of acknowledging I was already like this for a very long time a person who always wore a mask in front of them. I guess these posts are my way of dealing with it, which it has made me feel better.
status offlineHumbleLove
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image SoCalman and image to the forum. It takes time to release anger, everybody has their own way of dealing with things. I am glad to hear that posting is making you feel better. Focus on doing things that
help you feel better. Life is about taking things one day at a time, one thing at a time. The members who were afraid that you were going to leave because you attended college...are probably going to continue to think that college is what caused you to leave.
I do understand why you are angry with them for not acknowledging that you were already a non-believer. The good news is that your family still talks to you. Your family is more important then what the other members think.
status offlineSoCalman
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While it is true my family speaks to me things are strained. To this day there are constant reminders that it's never too late to repent. I am coming to terms with the fact that what I shared with my loved ones will never be the same. They will always see me as their failure who was raised to be JW, but ended up leaving since they did something wrong. I have since then closed my "private" life away from them.
status offlineHumbleLove
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It is difficult when family relationships are strained. You are not a failure, and maybe one day more members of your family will also leave JW. Are you married with kids?
status offlineSoCalman
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by HumbleLove
10 hours ago It is difficult when family relationships are strained. You are not a failure, and maybe one day more members of your family will also leave JW. Are you married with kids?
Luckily no like I said I was completely unprepared when I left. My ex was a JW and she left because I left. At this point though I am trying to adapt to being outside the JW's as all the years left me unused to the outside. Due to this, I have not seeked a relationship.
status offlineHumbleLove
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It is going to take time to adapt to a life outside the JW's. Be patient with yourself and take things at your own speed. Have you made any friends with non-JW's in the past year? If you haven't this might be a way to help get used to being outside the JW religion. If
there were things you wanted to try as JW that you couldn't....now might be the time to try out some new things. But, just remember to be patient with yourself and take things at your own speed. People each have their own path that they take when getting used
to being outside the JW religion.
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It took me 15 years to shed all of the guilt. I did not seek help and hindsight that was a mistake SoCal.
Immediately start seeking the real truth. Whether or not you want to be a Christian is up to you. But researching the past of JW dot ORG will give you a peace of mind that you have made the right decision to leave.
Attend a support group of persons that know where you are coming from. People, no matter how skilled (Phd's) Have no clue as to the amount of mindbending you have gone through over most of your life.
I myself, eventually attended a Calvary Church, and Vineyard and Methodist etc… The general theme to my surprise was.. WELCOME!!! Come take in the Holy Spirit and Praise the Lord with us. I must say that that helped the most. Knowing that I am a forgivin sinner and my debt was paid 2K years ago not one door knock at a time.
God Speed
status offlineSoCalman
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Thank you all for your support especially HumbleLove. Truth be told I am an atheist. I am done with religion, period, at least at this stage of my life. I cannot say what will happen in further stages, other than I am never going back, but what I do know is that I am slowly undoing all that it does to you, whether you buy into the religion or not. One example is the complete and total loyalty demanded by the JW religion. This in the end is achieved through fear tactics of cutting all those you know since you are only supposed to be close to those who are JW. It is that fear, which everyone who decides to leave has to overcome. I knew what it meant leaving when I did some of these people were like family to me and the threat of being cut off is huge.
status offlineSoCalman
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Thank you all for your support especially HumbleLove. Truth be told I am an atheist. I am done with religion, period, at least at this stage of my life. I cannot say what will happen in further stages, other than I am never going back, but what I do know is that I am slowly undoing all that it does to you, whether you buy into the religion or not. One example is the complete and total loyalty demanded by the JW religion. This in the end is achieved through fear tactics of cutting all those you know since you are only supposed to be close to those who are JW. It is that fear, which everyone who decides to leave has to overcome. I knew what it meant leaving when I did some of these people were like family to me and the threat of being cut off is huge.
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It is difficult to leave JW religion for the very reason that you said...the fact that you can be cut off by people you know. The situation is different for each person. For some people when they leave they lose absolutely everybody. Every single friend and family member they had were JW and decided to follow the rules of shunning to the letter. Then there are people who lose some people when they decide. Each case is different but losing people is a difficult thing to endure. It doesn't matter how many people you may be losing...it's the fact that you are losing anybody which makes it difficult to leave.
This is why some people stay in and continue to attend meetings even though they no longer believe. I am sorry to hear that the lie ate away at you so much that you ended up in the emergency room...that was a difficult thing to endure. It is possible to find life after the JW religion...it's going to take time. And that's ok everybody discovers their path, at their own pace.
The good news is thanks to the invention of the Internet there are forums such as these where people can find support. The bad news is that not everyone is aware that these forums exist some people exiting the religion still feel mighty alone with their thoughts. The good news is you found this forum and you are slowly taking steps to find a life outside the religion.
Yes, the JW religion does demand complete and total loyalty. It's a lifestyle that doesn't promote any relationships outside of JW. Continue posting and sharing. Each step you take will help you achieve a life outside the JW religion.
status offlinetrdking
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Humble Love, You have a good heart. I like you
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trdking, You have a good heart. I like you too.
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When it Rains
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Don't mean to dump on you guys, but I just need to vent. A few months ago my husband, Don was going to the VA hospital for chest pains that come and go. They didn't see anything obviously wrong with his heart but did find out he has GERD. The pains eased up and we though problem solved. Now they're getting worse again, sharper than they were before. More tests. More uncertainty. Adding to it, I've been laid off from work since November. My job is construction related so half the year (in Pennsylvania) I'm off work. I get a letter from the Unemployment Office today telling me my claim will be maxed out in four weeks. The construction business has been slow the last five or six years so there's always the chance I won't GET called back. So there's that weighing on me now. Don works for the same company and at least he's been called back to work, so there is that. Don doesn't always listen when I try to tell him how worried I am. He just tells me I worry too much. He'd rather not think about it. I can't NOT think about it. Anyway, thanks for listening.
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image image I am sorry about your husband having GERD. I am also sorry about the situation on the job front. I am sending positive thoughts your way in the hopes that things get better. I understand that it's impossible not to worry. Feel free to vent all you need to. I will be hoping that your husband's pains go away....and I will be hoping that you DO get called back for work.
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((sg))
these sort of posts are the hardest to reply to......because I don't have the answer for you!! But that doesn't mean that I don't want you to know that I DO hear you, and that I do care about (and identify with) your worries....
This time last year my hubby was in hospital with an unknown bug that had turned to sepsis....it was touch and go whether he would pull through, but added into that was the fact that we are self-employed, he is a one-man business, and without that 'man' its no-go!"!" So I truly do understand how hard it is to be worrying not only about your loved ones health, but the repercussions that will cause.....its at times like this that you realise how close we all live to 'the edge'.....
I suppose all I can say to you at this difficult time is you have to take things one at a time, and you have to prioritise!!! If anything should happen to either one of you, the world would be irreversibly changed for both of you.....and all the things that worry you now, would change...........so I would say that you are forced to deal with those things that you CAN do something about...
It sounds like Don is getting his problems investigated, so although it sounds trite, don't pre-empt that worry ......you may or may not get more work, but once again that is out of your hands.....try to confront only those things that you think you can actually do something about!!
Believe me, I am not trying to trivialise your problems, but I can hear the panic in your words....and I know because I have been there!! Panic only causes more trouble and health problems, and makes you blind to any opportunites that do happen to come your way.......I also understand that the male perspective on these huge worries is to totally blank them.....but imo that is partly due to wanting to make them seem less problematical to you (if only they knew!!!!)....
When everything in life seems to be going against you (as it is at this time for you both),,, then all you can do is take the worst case scenario and work back from that........so long as you have your health, and each other, there is always going to be a 'plan'....even if its not what you wanted......so I would wish for you a definitive outcome re your hubbys health....and maybe the chance for you to show him that his 'platitudes' of playing down your worries are not helping one bit!!
Sending out positive thoughts for you both....and some calm waters on the horizon ....
Hugs
Sam xxx
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Thank you, Humble and sam. I really needed that. It helps to talk it out sometimes, especially with people who really DO understand where I'm coming from. I've had a good cry and that helps too. Thank you so, SO much for encouragement. That means a lot. Hugs to you both.
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I've had a good cry and that helps too
How the hell did I forget that most vital piece of advice!!!! That is of course the no.1 thing to do....besides releasing some of the tension,, it makes us look sooooo attractive (not)...that we then have something else to worry about smiley: tongue
Just checking back in to see how you are feeling??
And of course to send you even more ((hugs))
Sam xx
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Thanks for the hugs, sam. I'm feeling better today. Now that I'm more rational, I realize things aren't as bad as they seemed yesterday. It was everything coming all at once that got to me. It helps that it was a sunny day and I went out walking with my dog. I needed to get out of the house, Thank you again for the listening ear. My best to you and your hubby.
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I'm glad you're feeling a bit better. Well wishes to you.
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Taking the dog for a walk is definitely a good way to get out of the house. I am glad to hear it was a sunny day. It is a good feeling when we realize that we can enjoy the simple pleasure in life to help us start to feel better again.
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Oh HumbleLove I am so glad to hear you are feeling better from the panic you had. I do so want to do what you are doing. You have calmed down and kept going.
One day at a time is something I keep trying (and many times unsuccessful in achieving) to accomplish. Worry will suck all your energy away if you let it.
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You'll love the video on NEW light! LOL
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You'll love the video on NEW light! LOL
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Too funny!!! Thanks for posting!
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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I hopefully caught the humor but after listening to what's his name, the humor left.
Thank you Inspector D for posting. It's a reminder for why I hate that religion. It doesn't matter how sincere any of us are - they want total control over our lives and unless we can speak according to their rules - we are damned.
status offlinetrdking
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AMEN
status offlineGurgi
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Nice one, inspecterD.
Brilliant. All i need to know now is...
Is there a Goth/trance/dark electronica mix vynil limited edition picture disc with embossed gatefold sleve? How much is it? and where can i buy one if there's any left???
'Do a barrel roll!' - Peppy Hare, Lylat Wars - N64
'Andross wont have his way with me!' - Fox McCloud, Lylat Wars - N64
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Apostasy Trial - Undercover spycam part 1
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offlineJoe Magarac
Apostasy Trial - Undercover spycam part 1
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Starting point for a bunch of them.
Let that sink it a bit.
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Wow! powerful stuff! Is the rest of the 'inquisition' out yet??
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Wow is right! All I can think while listening to the elders defense of the organization is that they are defending a few pixels and failing to see the whole picture. Going back time and again to the 'fall back' argument that 'they are just men' is not good enough. These 'men' be they from an elder body or from the governing body, especially the GB, demand loyalty. Loyalty to the GB is non-negotiable. Also, if they change their stance over and over but later fail to address the adverse effects on the lives they are influencing that is a huge problem. That is exactly the problem the Catholic Church has and JWs are no different.
I'm hoping that the next installment slams hard on the impact to families for members who in good conscience can no longer remain loyal to this MAN made organization or at least to some of it's instructions like shunning.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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A prime example of how the JW elders suffer from deluded convictions. And delusions of grandeur - the JW elders believe that saying 'Jehovah' is a magical tool that allows them to deny reality and that belief in 'Jehovah' negates them from any logical or moral thinking that will crack their delusion.
It is ironic that the example of the ex-Catholic mirrors the experience of the person who is being the subject of their 'judicial inquiry'. I laughed when the elder said that he learned more about Catholicism after he left than he knew while still a Catholic. Sound familiar? smiley: laugh
The JW elders cannot see the forest for the trees.
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I was surprised when one elder rattled off four dates associated with false prophecies including 1874 and 1975. It indicated that he knew of those things but chose to put them out of his mind because "Jehovah exists".
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
status offlinecangie
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And they admit that they know that issues are being "swept under the rug" but keep emphasizing that it is MAN who is doing this, as though that makes the "rug-sweeping" an invalid point and of no consequence. Don't they always brag about the "cleanliness" of the organization? That's because all the dirt is hidden under the carpet...Oh no
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Thanks for sharing, Joe. That was a jaw dropper. Sounds like they ok with things being covered up. Yet they're the first to point fingers at other religious groups for 'sweeping things under the rug'.
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New Revised Bible
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New Revised Bible
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Check 1 Corinthians ch 6 v9 in the normaL NWT and it goes on about men who lie with men ect now in the New revised version(which are due to be deliverd to congregations soon and is also available on pdf download via JW leikes) it directley says "Homosexuals"now i can be outspoken on stuff but to re word the bible is another thing..but hey who am i to question!!!! THING IS I DO QUESTION AND THATS MY NATURE AND ALL WAYS WILL BE,AND NO MAN WILL CHANGE MY THINKING TO QUESTION THINGS AND THEN TELL ME I CAN NOT,THATS WHATS CALLED OBEIDIANT IGNORANCE AND I AM NOT THAT...xxxx..Seth xxxxx
Last Edited By: seth69 Oct 10 13 2:52 AM. Edited 2 times.
status offlinealexia
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My mother is so excited over this new bible. They got a copy on Sunday during their special talk. Uggh...
status offlineJoe Magarac
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So did they just paraphrase as in your example?
Or are there any changes with real doctrinal significance?
status offlineCorpusChristi Judah
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I've done a bit of a sweep of the "revised" NWT over the past few days (I say "revised" because, for the most part, it is as much of a revision as the 1985 revision was of the original 1950 version). Frankly I was expecting a lot more.
The text generally reads the same in most places. There is no change to the clunky English and there is no attempt to capture the Hebrew rhythm in poetry. Except for the list of changes and additions announced at the Annual Meeting (i.e., "ass" is now "donkey," a few more additional uses of "Jehovah," etc.) there is little less to add here. Unlike what one of the speakers promised in saying this would be 'an entirely new translation,' it is, for the most part, a rather boring and unsurprising update.
The updating made to the vocabulary seems to be lifted from the choices made in the New Revised Standard Version, released in 1989. Except for the minor change to words regarding Jesus' being "impaled" (which are unique to the NWT historically and etymologically incorrect rendition for language about the crucifixion), all the other "modern" word choices seem to be shamelessly copied from the NRSV and its list of changes it made to the RSV vocabulary over 20 years ago. All the new language is what is found in all the major versions in one way or another, so the NWT offers a stale update of a presentation.
It is also very inconsistent in its update, never uniform. For example, while claims are made that the update is meant to be modern and conscious of renditions sensitive to inclusive gender, the first place this should occur, Genesis 1:26, still reads as it did before. "Let us make man in our image" is still offered unlike the modern "Let us make human beings in our image" as found in the NRSV, the New Jerusalem Bible, and the 2011 revision to the official US Catholic translation, the NABRE. This may be the one place where there is little to debate that the word "man" refers to humanity, yet the GB misses the mark, right out of the gate too! It is a "pick-and-choose" of NRSV vocabulary lifts that the NWT presents after this point.
As I stated it is, for the most part, a rather boring update. But there are three changes which don't make sense unless the Governing Body is about to spring a couple of new teachings on the unsuspecting JW population.
The first is the change from Sheol and Hades to "grave." Instead of strengthening the current view of JW eschatology it weakens it. Outside of the NRSV, this is the current usage and understanding of these words in Christian churches and among Jews. The NABRE, for example, uses "netherworld" for Hades almost always throughout the New Testament. Readers of the NRSV (which uses Sheol in the OT and Hades in NT) already understand that this means the common grave.
The second is the change of "soul" to read as it does in context, almost identically with the way it is rendered in the NRSV. In Genesis 2:7 the updated NWT reads like the NRSV, NJB, and the NABRE: "The man became a living person." The rest of the usages of soul through Scripture are similar to the major Christian churches and Judaism (the modern JPS Tanakh version reads likewise).
The last is John 17:3. Several Watchtower publications and many discourses and studies throughout the years have been based on the older NWT reading: "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God." For decades the leaders of the JWs have ridiculed Christians for translating this verse the way the updated NWT now reads: "This means everlasting life, their coming to know you..." Since the religion of the JWs is a scholastic exercise void of spirituality that has been based on the older NWT reading, it is now interesting to see how the GB's choice to render this like Christendom's religions do will change things.
Except for the overuse of the Divine Name, the updated NWT is basically a poor reflection of modern translations and an inconsistent attempt at modern language usage. The translation is still stale and very hard to read. Compare it with the "literal as possible, free as necessary" NRSV and see how it is supposed to be done. In fact, JWs will be embarrassed should they compare their "new" Bible with either it or the other revised translations and see how smooth and easy-to-understand they are by comparison (the new NIV is another example).
The one thing this "revision" has got me wondering is: We will see the Governing Body do a major change over to more traditional Christianity like the Worldwide Church of God did? Their Bible is practically the same to those previously "incorrect" versions. If their Bibles are now almost the same in rendition, does this signal that they are about to make their doctrine just as similar? The GB did recently tell the JWs to follow their instruction even if it flies in the face of human reasoning, as they know it.
Hmmm, we shall see.
Last Edited By: CorpusChristi Judah Oct 16 13 6:25 PM. Edited 1 times.
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So glad you posted this! I had no idea there was a new JW bible out. It's funny how the society gets followers so excited about such small things. Anything to keep them blinded.
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A quick revision and bang everyone has to but a new Bible! Whats the profit on 7 million of these babies?
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Assembly hall scam
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offlinehalf banana
Assembly hall scam
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I gasped at the shameless attitude that the GB are now exhibiting regarding money. A Spanish language sister site; extj.com, is paraphrased on JW net revealing an appalling scandal in the handling of the donations from the flock for the building of an assembly hall. http://www.extj.com/showthread.php?24740-Denuncia
A site in Mexico was DONATED for this purpose and the GB said that it could go ahead IF THE BROTHERS FUNDED THE WHOLE PROJECT themselves. Five years later and millions of Dollars banked in good faith by the poor brothers into the coffers of the WTBTS...and still no assembly hall.
Worse still this is not an isolated case, there are more to come to light in Central America.
Their reply to those wondering where their money went is that they are “analysing the needs of the congregations to see whether or not to build” (words to that effect).
In the mean time would they like to continue to contribute more funds and/ or would they like to donate the money received for Kingdom use?! No provision is made for respectfully returning the money to those who donated for a specific purpose.
What does it feel like if you have money taken from you and your thief then asks would you like to call it a donation? This sounds like a Mafioso proposition to me.
A long aquaintance with the literature of the Witnesses leads one to the conclusion that they live in the intellectual ‘twilight zone’.
Alan Rogerson, Millions now Living will NeverDie: A Study of Jehovah’s Witnesses, (p116 Constable, London 1969).
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Any chance of seeing these cases being introduced to the legal system and the WBTS being shown as the money making scam it is? If so, how much chance of law change to stamp out vile, parasitic, predatory, vermin for good?
'Do a barrel roll!' - Peppy Hare, Lylat Wars - N64
'Andross wont have his way with me!' - Fox McCloud, Lylat Wars - N64
Last Edited By: Gurgi Apr 18 14 3:18 AM. Edited 1 times.
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I'm not surprised.
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I remember my parents specifically budgeting money for donations at the KH and assemblies/conventions. It was considered in with all their other monthly bills. Think of this: if even half of the 8 million witnesses gave $10 a month to the WTBTS, they would have a revenue of $40million a month, and $480million a year, at least! Anyone who doesn't think it is a multi billion dollar corporation is falling into their scam!
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When they do build, don't forget that 100% of the work is done by Free volunteer labor! Labor is the biggest expense in building. Instant massive equity in properties
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Aw let the guy have a break. I'd drop his sentence by 10 years. That's fair. LOL
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offlineinspecterD
Aw let the guy have a break. I'd drop his sentence by 10 years. That's fair. LOL
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Lost my original comments. Let me see.....
Oh yeah, Check this out. http://www.jrn.com/fox4now/news/Jehovas-Witness-Church--247401911.html?lc=Smart
Does seem a little harsh Life + 60 years. smiley: roll
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Life + 60 years wouldn't hold up in our Aussie justice system (based on the English one) ....................................
As harsh as HE thinks it is .... he has used his religion to hide behind whilst he 'chases' his victims around. He knew what he was doing was wong (yes ... that WAS how I meant to type it!) .................. obviously the justice system where he lives works. He just doesn't like it.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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Seems harsh? I know you must be kidding...this guy should just be, according to the old way - taken out to a public viewing and killed. It would certainly save us taxpayers a lot of money with not housing him the rest of his life.
Than again, it's how he was able to hide behind his filthy religion that protects these type persons.
Thank goodness for the Bill Bowen's that would lose so much for speaking out against these type...and yet, others still don't understand that we cannot allow these persons in our church's and I don't care how the court system handles them because of this "Human Right" issue - we are still paying for this type to stay alive? Of course, blame religion, blame your parents blah blah blah...they made a choice and I'm, as a taxpayer, that doesn't get favor's - I'm sick of both religion and politics.
I try being a kind person but this shit has got to stop!
"There is no separation of Church and State." "Sooner or later when you lay with the Devil, you will fuck." And fuck is what they do while damning others that just want a peaceful life.
Time to take a break and have a happy daysmiley: grin Chat later, LIN
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His attitude is like the attitude of the GB when they are caught being an NGO of the UN.
Whaaat, no big deal?!
status offlineYammerHammer
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Sam Ping Wong here... Wong couldn't control his schlong, butt his sentence is too wong?
“The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn but to unlearn.” ~ Gloria Steinem
status offlineLinda.cavymadness76263
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OMG, Yammer - that's too funny!
I just finished watching a serious about America Serial Killers...Wow! Guess that's one thing we can say about this country, we certainly have an abundance of such and then the liberals don't want us putting them to death - just keep the taxpayer paying for keeping them alive. I'm one American that believes in that death to such fucks, well, I don't care. I care more for helping our community and it doesn't help when it continues costing more and more $$$ for keeping these sick fucks alive.
Hell, they actually get all the drugs, sex and do at least have a bed and some medical attention while in prison...some even manage to find someone to kill on occasion.
I'd guess it's ok for me to say that since my brother is in-out of jails/prison and hubby's brother in in prison. We listen to the stories of how that system works and I'd certainly never want being there. I remember when first meeting my former husband, retired from being a Deputy during the Charles Manson Days of old...some of those deputies hoped good ol' Charley would start some shit so that they could simply shot the SOB dead! But alas, we are the most loving and kind country for protecting the monsters because 'we' don't want trampling on their rights smiley: mad
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YammerHammer wrote:
Sam Ping Wong here... Wong couldn't control his schlong, butt his sentence is too wong?
Bow waveBow down before youBow down before youBow wave
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Aw let the guy have a break. I'd drop his sentence by 10 years. That's fair. LOL #7 [-]
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There's a man my age like 25 that always hangs with a boy that's like 8 I always wonder why and if there anything funny going on :/ I always just figure it's none of my business
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There was a M Servant in My hall as a kid. He was always Organizing trips to the beach and overnight Campouts. He provided BEER!!! So of course all the 12 to 16 year old boys were IN! Don't tell Mom and DAD.
I went on a few and then one trip after most of the boys were passed out he turned on me in quite the same way as Mr Wongfully Detained here.
He pinned me down from behind and slid his hands down my pants and grabbed my balls. I fought that little fucker with all I had.
After I got back I went to the Elders and called him out. Guess what? No witnesses so It was my word against his and he denied it. He didn't even get removed as an MS.
SO rather than be embarrassed and keep my mouth shut I told everyone. Turns out that all of the boys that went had a similar instance. None of their parents would let them come forward.
Really Really scary.
It did teach me how to be prepared when my kids were growing up. I taught all of my kids from early on what pedophiles were, how to spot them and how to fight them.
When I did have kids I had a Sign that I professionally made for my front door that said "No Peds Allowed" An Elder (on a "shepherding call") asked me about it once. I told him it means no Pedophiles Then I offered up the fact that I was molested by an MS when I was younger and that anyone I see will be shot on site. You should have seen his face! :)
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Hi trdking, I don't know all the details because I was out of the " truth" by that time but, about twenty years ago my cousin from a different state to me had a similar bad experience, same set up where a respected older "brother" ( may have been ms) provided some young boys "brothers" with alcohol and took advantage of them, playing on their conscience ( they were doing the wrong thing) so they wouldn't tell.
I think my cousin was about 14 when this occurred. When he was about 17 he stopped his 4wd on the motorway and threw himself under a truck.... I miss him so much.
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Oh and pedophiles. .... hang the bastards
status offlinetrdking
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Hang em all High. Sorry to hear about your cousin friend. Unfortunately every person has a different strength in their psychy. Mine turned into anger instead of guilt and shame. Today, bring me any Ped and I will hang them myself no issues
Cheers all
In Christ
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trdking I am sorry to hear about what you went through. 2014myyearofflight I am sorry to hear about your cousin.
I agree that pedophiles should be hanged.
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Life + 60 years *is* very a harsh sentence and sends a very powerful message. It's almost double confirmation that you're going to die in prison. Granted there has been a rash of female teachers having sexual intercourse with students and serving WAAAY less time so it isn't exactly equitable from that perspective.
I'm actually wondering whether he has a legimitate shot on appeal. The appeal courts can review sentences for whether they are "reasonable" given the circumstances and sentences for similar crimes. However, if the judge followed sentencing guidelines, the sentence is very unlikely to be overturned on appeal.
Anyway he has nobody to blame but himself for landing in the lap of the law. The fact that there were multiple victims might have played a huge role in the final prison sentence. I hope the victims have been able to move on past Wong's wrongs. Child abuse is a terrible violation of trust that can leave enduring scars on juveline vicitms that were helpless to defend themselves. Having lived through such episodes myself I can say that you live the experience twice if you were very young when the abuse occurred. First there's the instinctive emotional reaction when it happens then there's a second bout of depression years later when you're old enough to *understand* what happened. I did not remember (my memories were repressed) until I hit 11-12 then it was like a memory floodgate opened. I wanted to go back and defend the younger me.
There are only a few things I can see myself killing someone for...
If there is a higher power, don't let me happen on someone harming a child.
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
Last Edited By: auth A day ago. Edited 3 times.
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BTW, here he is at his new home:
http://www.dc.state.fl.us/activeinmates/detail.asp?Bookmark=1&From=list&SessionID=37623272
More JW predators need to end up there rather than hiding within the congregation behind the "two-witness rule".
As I suspected, the multiple offences did him in which is why his lawyer wanted separate trials for each.
He actually got four consecutive 15 year sentences and 2 life sentences! Judge threw the whole library at him. smiley: smile
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
Last Edited By: auth A day ago. Edited 1 times.
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Reasons for Leaving
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I finally got my book finished. It is available as a free eBook here: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/527252
I'm sure the contents are familiar territory to most people here, but hopefully it will be of some use to those who are either thinking about joining or thinking about leaving.
Russ.
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Russ, I am going to download it but just wanted to say, Love the cover art! So appropriate for religion in general and the addiction current jw's have for their beloved religion. Thank you for posting the link.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
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Thanks! I'll have a look through.
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I read it. It was great!
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Thanks Russ .... I have downloaded the PDF version and will read it soon. I've already got to page 20 ...... I could have written it myself as you have added a lot of my thoughts in there! I am pleased that you're not trying to make money from it ... as so many who add links to their books do. A non-for-profit helpful guide .......
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Thank you so much for sharing this Russ!! I have downloaded it, and look forward to reading it smiley: smile xx
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
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Mar 15 15 1:41 AM
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I just got finished reading your book and there was a lot I loved about it.
You start out with "Questions? Comments? Corrections? Hate mail?"
I really like the way you are encouraging people in making comments. The Table of Contents and the order of subjects were a smooth reading. The whole thing was great!
There were some parts that really stuck out for me:
Watchtower Publication:
"Is this Life All there is?" (1974) page 46
"....really, would you want to be associated with a religion that has not been honest with you?" (Watchtower 1974, page 46)
No, I would not. (your words)
I found that to basically sum up your book. I thought it was pure genius that you used a Watchtower quote to do that!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you discussing where Shunning came from and came up with this:
"Someone who smokes a cigarette can hardly be regarded as the antichrist"
I had a chuckle at that since smoking can't be regarded that way.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you said this:
"there is little that the average jw fears more than encountering an apostate."
I had a question for you, If a JW came to my door and I said "I am an apostate.....Would that send them running for the hills or would they just try harder to convert me?"
Right now I am planting seeds of doubt in JW's every chance that I get. I don't want them running for the hills, but I definitely want to encourage them to talk to me more.
I have found that when asking some difficult questions that don't get answering...I shift and say "how is the weather today...or some Non-JW subject."
I am asking you that question because since the average JW really do fear apostates....wouldn't they just want to convert them? Or do they just think there is no hope for the apostate?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Baptism:
The wording on the two questions has been changed. My question is when do people ponder the Baptism questions? Do they say ok I plan to get Baptized within a month and have a month to ponder those questions? Or is it on the day of the Baptism you are handed the two questions and have to decide in a matter of minutes?
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I was sorry to hear that you went through drama about giving your little girl a Christmas present. You are a good Dad to let your little girl enjoy the holiday even though you, yourself aren't that much into it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your Warning about how difficult it's going to be to get a true believer of JW to change their mind. I agree someone who is having doubts would have more of an open mind. It would be difficult to figure out who was having doubts.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
There are many more things that I loved about your book. I just want to say I think you did a great job researching your subject. The one running theme through your book that I loved the most was the fact you encourage the reader to do research. You even make it easy for the reader to want to do research by suggestion good books and ways to go about it.
Let's hope this book works to help prevent someone in joining, and helps to open someone's eyes in leaving.
Last Edited By: HumbleLove Mar 15 15 1:46 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlinemaksutov
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Thanks everyone.
whytebyrd2 wrote:
just wanted to say, Love the cover art! So appropriate for religion in general and the addiction current jw's have for their beloved religion.
Thanks, yes, I took that photo a couple of years ago just because I liked the look of the poppies. When searching through my pics for a cover photo it seemed appropriate not only for being pretty, but also having dual symbolism: opiates, and mourning (the waste of so many years of my life, and the fact that I am still losing family members to the JWs).
Cacky wrote:
I read it. It was great!
Wow, that was quick! I wasn't expecting anyone to read the whole thing in one go, lol.
HumbleLove wrote:
If a JW came to my door and I said "I am an apostate.....Would that send them running for the hills or would they just try harder to convert me?"
I think the vast majority would break out into a sweat, experience palpitations and giddiness, then excuse themselves very quickly and leave. There are outliers who would not be fazed and who would just be happy that someone is talking to them, but they would be the exception.
HumbleLove wrote:
when do people ponder the Baptism questions?
The questions are asked publicly immediately before the candidates get baptised. Baptism candidates usually sit at the front of the assembly hall for the baptsim talk, then after the talk they are invited to stand and answer the two questions in a loud voice for the audience to hear (it is part of the ceremony). Then they go off and get changed and dunked. So people know what the questions are well in advance, but don't actually answer them until the day. There is another set of baptism questions though which are not answered publicly (about 100 of them) - the candidate goes through them with two or three elders over several sessions a few months before the baptism, and the elders then have to decide whether the candidate 'qualifies' for baptism. Those questions are about making sure the candidate understand the basic doctrines and really believes the organisation is God's channel of communication.
Russ.
status offlineCacky
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Your not an apostate, Humble, because you've never been a jw. If you said you were one, they'd leave immediately, at least the majority of them would. And elder or one who thinks they have superior knowledge might try to get you into a conversation about why you left, etc. But the average stance is to not have anything to do with apostates. It's in all their literature.
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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I have read the beginning chapters but am not as fast a reader as Cacky and shall read it over the next few days. I printed it out into a very nifty little 243 page booklet.
I decided that this is the perfect size to keep on hand for easy reference. You did a fantastic job Russ! Thank you!!!
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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“Even if it’s not the truth, it’s still the best way of life” is a common
motto among JWs. This is a thought stopper (a type of logical fallacy,
which I will come to later), used to justify sticking with the faith despite
the fact that it has some obvious flaws. But is it true?....
That is what kept me with it. Maybe a after time it became : Its the way I know.
status offlineGoingForth
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I read all the book and find it very good. I especially liked the part on critical thinking.
The one on "thought stopping clichés" is so true of the WTS: “They’re just imperfect men (when excusing the errors and injustices committed by those in charge)." That is one that did stop me from "thinking" and I saw so many wrongs committed and nothing being done about it. That cliché unfortunately stopped me for far too long.
The one on the "Straw man" is one that is often used too: "Where a person misrepresents their opponent’s argument, then argues against their made-up, inaccurate version of it." The WT so often misquoted or partly quoted or just simply misrepresented the whole argument of the other one.
Argumentum Verbosium: "Also known as Proof by Intimidation, or Proof by Verbosity. It refers to an argument that is so complex, long-winded, full of jargon, or poorly presented that you are obliged to accept it, simply to avoid having to unravel the minute details." The past president Fred Franz fits that so much. (Ray Franz's uncle) Many Watchtowers were the same--it was simply hard to follow and the final conclusion one made for oneself is to think "because I cannot understand it, it must be right after all HE knows so much more."
All the items under "Critical Thinking" are worth going over many times.
Thanks Maksutov. It is commendable that you are doing this free of charge. You may want to put at least a small fee at some time, at least to cover your own expenses. Although you may reach many more people by offering it for free.
“The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen nor even touched—
They must be felt with the heart.”
Helen Keller
status offlineCacky
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I forgot to thank you for this. It was good of you to do that research and put it out there for others.
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Thank YOU for all your comments. Someone pointed out that celebrating a birthday is not explicitly listed as a disfellowshipping offense in the Elder's handbook. I checked, and that is true - there is anecdotal evidence that some people have been disfellowshipped for birthday celebration, but the Elder's book only lists religious holidays, not birthdays. So I have removed references to it being a disfellowshipping offense now. I'm surprised I didn't already know that!
Russ.
status offlineHumbleLove
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Your book was very well written and very well researched. I tell you when I first learned that JW's weren't allowed to celebrate their birthdays I knew that one thing alone would ensure that's a religion I would never consider.
There is a lot of information in the Elder's handbook and when writing a book such as the wonderful one you have written....it's easy to miss a minor detail. This is why I thought it was very good of you, to start your book out by being open to Comments/Corrections etc.
I have come to the conclusion based upon yours and Cacky's comments about what I asked about apostates in general. It's NOT a good idea for me in any shape or form to discuss apostates or even say the word 'apostate' that would probably send any JW I am talking to running for the hills. I am not an apostate but I am probably super worldly to the average JW.
Thank you for answering all my questions. :)
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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You can't know everything Russ and to be honest ..... if a jdub was found to be celebrating birthdays you can bet your bottom dollar that the local group of elders would most certainly disfellowship them for apostasy at worst ... or conjure up some other reason for getting rid of them.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineauth
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AndriaSyxx wrote:
You can't know everything Russ and to be honest ..... if a jdub was found to be celebrating birthdays you can bet your bottom dollar that the local group of elders would most certainly disfellowship them for apostasy at worst ... or conjure up some other reason for getting rid of them.There seem to be at least some "unwritten rules". It wasn't until I became an unbaptized publisher that I became aware of the beard thing. Then there are things that are actively discouraged yet aren't really "offenses", per se. An example of that is "higher education" as they call it. It's a religion of so many restrictions who can really keep up?
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Lots of 'local needs' rules and regs I think you'll find Auth. The beard thing has been around for quite a while and yet in some halls there are men with beards roaming freely.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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I think the harshness of disfellowshipping can make us neglect some of the other rules that are completely unfair and pharisaical but that don't result in disfellowshipping (like marrying an unbeliever [or even attending such a wedding], having a tattoo, or 'roaming freely with a beard' [lol]). There is also the fact that the disfellowshipping offenses are not explicitly listed anywhere except the Elder's handbook, so publishers who commit to the religion don't even know exactly what they are committing to. Little wonder people get confused.
Russ.
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I was extremely confused during my first two weeks of reading about the JW beliefs. I went to Yahoo Answers....JW.org....the list just goes on and on...and got to this website because I stumbled across a website that suggested going to this website. The description of this particular forum said there was lots of knowledgeable people here. And there truly is.
status offlinepalmel1234
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Thanks Maksutov,
Gosh, you've really done your homework!
I've just downloaded the PDF format and have just skimmed through it.
What I've read so far is very good!
http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/179443/working_mom.html
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offlinemaksutov
Reasons for Leaving
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Mar 14 15 5:52 AM
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I finally got my book finished. It is available as a free eBook here: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/527252
I'm sure the contents are familiar territory to most people here, but hopefully it will be of some use to those who are either thinking about joining or thinking about leaving.
Russ.
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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Russ, I am going to download it but just wanted to say, Love the cover art! So appropriate for religion in general and the addiction current jw's have for their beloved religion. Thank you for posting the link.
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
status offlineCacky
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Mar 14 15 3:37 PM
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Thanks! I'll have a look through.
status offlineCacky
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I read it. It was great!
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Thanks Russ .... I have downloaded the PDF version and will read it soon. I've already got to page 20 ...... I could have written it myself as you have added a lot of my thoughts in there! I am pleased that you're not trying to make money from it ... as so many who add links to their books do. A non-for-profit helpful guide .......
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlinesolitaire
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Thank you so much for sharing this Russ!! I have downloaded it, and look forward to reading it smiley: smile xx
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
status offlineHumbleLove
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I just got finished reading your book and there was a lot I loved about it.
You start out with "Questions? Comments? Corrections? Hate mail?"
I really like the way you are encouraging people in making comments. The Table of Contents and the order of subjects were a smooth reading. The whole thing was great!
There were some parts that really stuck out for me:
Watchtower Publication:
"Is this Life All there is?" (1974) page 46
"....really, would you want to be associated with a religion that has not been honest with you?" (Watchtower 1974, page 46)
No, I would not. (your words)
I found that to basically sum up your book. I thought it was pure genius that you used a Watchtower quote to do that!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you discussing where Shunning came from and came up with this:
"Someone who smokes a cigarette can hardly be regarded as the antichrist"
I had a chuckle at that since smoking can't be regarded that way.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you said this:
"there is little that the average jw fears more than encountering an apostate."
I had a question for you, If a JW came to my door and I said "I am an apostate.....Would that send them running for the hills or would they just try harder to convert me?"
Right now I am planting seeds of doubt in JW's every chance that I get. I don't want them running for the hills, but I definitely want to encourage them to talk to me more.
I have found that when asking some difficult questions that don't get answering...I shift and say "how is the weather today...or some Non-JW subject."
I am asking you that question because since the average JW really do fear apostates....wouldn't they just want to convert them? Or do they just think there is no hope for the apostate?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Baptism:
The wording on the two questions has been changed. My question is when do people ponder the Baptism questions? Do they say ok I plan to get Baptized within a month and have a month to ponder those questions? Or is it on the day of the Baptism you are handed the two questions and have to decide in a matter of minutes?
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I was sorry to hear that you went through drama about giving your little girl a Christmas present. You are a good Dad to let your little girl enjoy the holiday even though you, yourself aren't that much into it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your Warning about how difficult it's going to be to get a true believer of JW to change their mind. I agree someone who is having doubts would have more of an open mind. It would be difficult to figure out who was having doubts.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
There are many more things that I loved about your book. I just want to say I think you did a great job researching your subject. The one running theme through your book that I loved the most was the fact you encourage the reader to do research. You even make it easy for the reader to want to do research by suggestion good books and ways to go about it.
Let's hope this book works to help prevent someone in joining, and helps to open someone's eyes in leaving.
Last Edited By: HumbleLove Mar 15 15 1:46 AM. Edited 1 times.
status offlinemaksutov
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Thanks everyone.
whytebyrd2 wrote:
just wanted to say, Love the cover art! So appropriate for religion in general and the addiction current jw's have for their beloved religion.
Thanks, yes, I took that photo a couple of years ago just because I liked the look of the poppies. When searching through my pics for a cover photo it seemed appropriate not only for being pretty, but also having dual symbolism: opiates, and mourning (the waste of so many years of my life, and the fact that I am still losing family members to the JWs).
Cacky wrote:
I read it. It was great!
Wow, that was quick! I wasn't expecting anyone to read the whole thing in one go, lol.
HumbleLove wrote:
If a JW came to my door and I said "I am an apostate.....Would that send them running for the hills or would they just try harder to convert me?"
I think the vast majority would break out into a sweat, experience palpitations and giddiness, then excuse themselves very quickly and leave. There are outliers who would not be fazed and who would just be happy that someone is talking to them, but they would be the exception.
HumbleLove wrote:
when do people ponder the Baptism questions?
The questions are asked publicly immediately before the candidates get baptised. Baptism candidates usually sit at the front of the assembly hall for the baptsim talk, then after the talk they are invited to stand and answer the two questions in a loud voice for the audience to hear (it is part of the ceremony). Then they go off and get changed and dunked. So people know what the questions are well in advance, but don't actually answer them until the day. There is another set of baptism questions though which are not answered publicly (about 100 of them) - the candidate goes through them with two or three elders over several sessions a few months before the baptism, and the elders then have to decide whether the candidate 'qualifies' for baptism. Those questions are about making sure the candidate understand the basic doctrines and really believes the organisation is God's channel of communication.
Russ.
status offlineCacky
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Your not an apostate, Humble, because you've never been a jw. If you said you were one, they'd leave immediately, at least the majority of them would. And elder or one who thinks they have superior knowledge might try to get you into a conversation about why you left, etc. But the average stance is to not have anything to do with apostates. It's in all their literature.
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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I have read the beginning chapters but am not as fast a reader as Cacky and shall read it over the next few days. I printed it out into a very nifty little 243 page booklet.
I decided that this is the perfect size to keep on hand for easy reference. You did a fantastic job Russ! Thank you!!!
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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“Even if it’s not the truth, it’s still the best way of life” is a common
motto among JWs. This is a thought stopper (a type of logical fallacy,
which I will come to later), used to justify sticking with the faith despite
the fact that it has some obvious flaws. But is it true?....
That is what kept me with it. Maybe a after time it became : Its the way I know.
status offlineGoingForth
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I read all the book and find it very good. I especially liked the part on critical thinking.
The one on "thought stopping clichés" is so true of the WTS: “They’re just imperfect men (when excusing the errors and injustices committed by those in charge)." That is one that did stop me from "thinking" and I saw so many wrongs committed and nothing being done about it. That cliché unfortunately stopped me for far too long.
The one on the "Straw man" is one that is often used too: "Where a person misrepresents their opponent’s argument, then argues against their made-up, inaccurate version of it." The WT so often misquoted or partly quoted or just simply misrepresented the whole argument of the other one.
Argumentum Verbosium: "Also known as Proof by Intimidation, or Proof by Verbosity. It refers to an argument that is so complex, long-winded, full of jargon, or poorly presented that you are obliged to accept it, simply to avoid having to unravel the minute details." The past president Fred Franz fits that so much. (Ray Franz's uncle) Many Watchtowers were the same--it was simply hard to follow and the final conclusion one made for oneself is to think "because I cannot understand it, it must be right after all HE knows so much more."
All the items under "Critical Thinking" are worth going over many times.
Thanks Maksutov. It is commendable that you are doing this free of charge. You may want to put at least a small fee at some time, at least to cover your own expenses. Although you may reach many more people by offering it for free.
“The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen nor even touched—
They must be felt with the heart.”
Helen Keller
status offlineCacky
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I forgot to thank you for this. It was good of you to do that research and put it out there for others.
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Thank YOU for all your comments. Someone pointed out that celebrating a birthday is not explicitly listed as a disfellowshipping offense in the Elder's handbook. I checked, and that is true - there is anecdotal evidence that some people have been disfellowshipped for birthday celebration, but the Elder's book only lists religious holidays, not birthdays. So I have removed references to it being a disfellowshipping offense now. I'm surprised I didn't already know that!
Russ.
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Your book was very well written and very well researched. I tell you when I first learned that JW's weren't allowed to celebrate their birthdays I knew that one thing alone would ensure that's a religion I would never consider.
There is a lot of information in the Elder's handbook and when writing a book such as the wonderful one you have written....it's easy to miss a minor detail. This is why I thought it was very good of you, to start your book out by being open to Comments/Corrections etc.
I have come to the conclusion based upon yours and Cacky's comments about what I asked about apostates in general. It's NOT a good idea for me in any shape or form to discuss apostates or even say the word 'apostate' that would probably send any JW I am talking to running for the hills. I am not an apostate but I am probably super worldly to the average JW.
Thank you for answering all my questions. :)
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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You can't know everything Russ and to be honest ..... if a jdub was found to be celebrating birthdays you can bet your bottom dollar that the local group of elders would most certainly disfellowship them for apostasy at worst ... or conjure up some other reason for getting rid of them.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
status offlineauth
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AndriaSyxx wrote:
You can't know everything Russ and to be honest ..... if a jdub was found to be celebrating birthdays you can bet your bottom dollar that the local group of elders would most certainly disfellowship them for apostasy at worst ... or conjure up some other reason for getting rid of them.There seem to be at least some "unwritten rules". It wasn't until I became an unbaptized publisher that I became aware of the beard thing. Then there are things that are actively discouraged yet aren't really "offenses", per se. An example of that is "higher education" as they call it. It's a religion of so many restrictions who can really keep up?
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
status offlineAndriaSyxx
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Lots of 'local needs' rules and regs I think you'll find Auth. The beard thing has been around for quite a while and yet in some halls there are men with beards roaming freely.
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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I think the harshness of disfellowshipping can make us neglect some of the other rules that are completely unfair and pharisaical but that don't result in disfellowshipping (like marrying an unbeliever [or even attending such a wedding], having a tattoo, or 'roaming freely with a beard' [lol]). There is also the fact that the disfellowshipping offenses are not explicitly listed anywhere except the Elder's handbook, so publishers who commit to the religion don't even know exactly what they are committing to. Little wonder people get confused.
Russ.
status offlineHumbleLove
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I was extremely confused during my first two weeks of reading about the JW beliefs. I went to Yahoo Answers....JW.org....the list just goes on and on...and got to this website because I stumbled across a website that suggested going to this website. The description of this particular forum said there was lots of knowledgeable people here. And there truly is.
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Thanks Maksutov,
Gosh, you've really done your homework!
I've just downloaded the PDF format and have just skimmed through it.
What I've read so far is very good!
http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/179443/working_mom.html
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Reasons for Leaving
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status offlineAndriaSyxx
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I still remember my former jdub friend exhorting me NOT to talk freely about my lack of faith as she wanted me to be her bridesmaid ... and I couldn't be one if I wasn't making noises about getting baptised. I still said nothing about the baptismal pond adventure but she must have ... as I was 'congratulated' by one of the local elders on my 'decision to dedicate my life to Jehovah' ..... and in the background she was giving me the evil eye of not to say anything. I just smiled and went along with it. I was gone a few months later!
"Life is too short to spend with people who suck the happiness out of you!"
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Sounds good my man. Sadly, I can't download it onto my 'puter here at work and I am without a proper 'puter at home too. Sounds jolly g though. good on ya.
Regards Paul
Read my novel Boomshot (18+)
http://www.amazon.com/Boomshot-Hunt-Killer-Paul-Jackson-ebook/dp/B00VSLG48W/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1428756971&sr=1-1&keywords=boomshot
Just remember. Neither The Watchtower(TM) nor the elders(TM) nor anyone in the 'truth'(TM) have any authority over you. Once you accept this you're well on your way to living!
Paint jobs on some familiar magazines and 'dublications' of the washtowel are kept here >> http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/17962/Some-Familiar-Publications-given-the-paint-job
I wish to see the Governing Body of Jehovah's witnesses(R) put on trial for crimes against humanity and face absolute justice. Why? Consider the un-Biblical an dangerous 'Blood doctrine', Shunning and the protection of paedophiles and you may see why I feel this way.
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Downloaded your book and can't wait to read it.
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Now available in paperback! At cost price (no profit being made from the book):
UK: amazon.co.uk/dp/1511627883/
US: amazon.com/dp/1511627883/
Free e-Book: Jehovah's Witnesses - Reasons for Leaving (and for not joining).
Russ.
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I downloaded your book onto my Nook. Very well-written. The points you make are clear and logical, easy for people who aren't familiar with Witnesses to follow.
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Thanks! :)
Free e-Book: Jehovah's Witnesses - Reasons for Leaving (and for not joining).
Russ.
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I have shared your book with some non-JW people and they learned a lot...same as me. I am glad you took time out to write your book :).
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Thanks HL.
Free e-Book: Jehovah's Witnesses - Reasons for Leaving (and for not joining).
Russ.
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I lost a very dear online friend two days ago.
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offlinePapillon1960
I lost a very dear online friend two days ago.
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Because of that, I just wanted to let you all know how much I love each and everyone of you. I didn't get to say goodbye to my friend and, once again, I am reminded of how important it is to tell the ones you love that you love them. This site and everyone on it are very important to me. There, I feel better now. Love and big hugs-Michele
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I'm so sorry to hear that, Michele. Hugs and love to you.
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We are family here. Sorry for your loss Michele.
And for you...
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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Online friendships can be very special. Sorry for your loss.
Free e-Book: Jehovah's Witnesses - Reasons for Leaving (and for not joining).
Russ.
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I am sorry for your loss. image
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Thank you all! Losing this friend has been a huge wake up call for me. She found out a month ago that she had stage 4 pancreatic cancer and the doctors were giving her a year. Four days ago, her kidneys went into complete failure and all the doctors could do was to keep her artificially alive so her family could get there to see her and say goodbye. Life is so fragile and I just wanted everyone here to know how I feel about you all. Maybe I won't be here tomorrow.
I talked to this gal online every day and I will miss her terribly. She was a sweet, kind, and courageous person. She helped me through my cancer ordeal and I will forever love her for that. So anyways, while life is happening, don't forget to love and to express that love.
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((Michele)) I am so sorry about your friend...........
I lost a friend a few years back with pancreatic cancer.....much like your friend she went far sooner than was expected.......the worst part was that I wasn't allowed to see her because she was still a jw, and I of course was designated 'surplus to requirements' smiley: sick
This denial of a visit came from her husband....she was too ill to communicate.......so I can only hope in my heart that she would have allowed me to see her for the last time if she could.........who knows.....
Sending you my love and a hug.........and reminding you... your friends life was richer because you were in it!! xxxx
"Learn from yesterday, Live for today, Hope for tomorrow"
Last Edited By: solitaire 3 days ago. Edited 1 times.
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(((Michele)))
Sorry for your loss.
I try to use death as a reminder to never take my loved ones for granted.
*hugs*
Love, Mel
P.S. *hugs* to you too Sam,
I'm sure you were in your friend's thoughts before she passed,
and even though she may not have been able to say good bye to you,
I'm sure she was glad to have known you.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/179443/working_mom.html
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That is really sad, Sam. Bad enough to lose someone you care for, but to not be allowed to see her one last time, that's really rough. *hugs*
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I love you, too, Michelle.
Life is so fragile and I just wanted everyone here to know how I feel about you all. Maybe I won't be here tomorrow.
Yes. That is what encountering death does to the survivors...we are forced to confront our own mortality.
I got a phone call yesterday, just before reading your opening post. My cousin committed suicide. I have confronted death many times - I have been with people when they died, I have looked at the other side when I almost died....but this is the first time that I have had to confront the darkness of suicide in my own family. It was, and is, horrible - the darkness is overwhelming. My heart is breaking for my cousin - I am so so sad that he had to go that way.
Live life fully - it is fragile and precious. Hug your family today - tell them that you love them.
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Oh no, Diane, very sorry to hear that.
Free e-Book: Jehovah's Witnesses - Reasons for Leaving (and for not joining).
Russ.
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Our beloved neighbors just lost a son to cancer.Years ago they would loss one to suicide.
I'm so sorry for your loss....it's not an easy thing but hopefully we offer support to those that are going through the heart-ache.
status offlineHumbleLove
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imageI am sending love and hugs to everyone. It's difficult when we lose someone. It makes us realize that the most important thing in life is showing love.
status offline2014myyearoflight
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Sorry for your loss. Life is precious and so we should value and love all the people in our lives who have a positive impact on us. You're one of those people.
status offlineJourney
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It's been a hard week, and I'm so sorry for all your losses. So sad to lose someone. It leaves an empty spot.
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I'm so sorry for your loss, Michelle.
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I echo everyone else's sentiments. A sudden loss is never welcome.
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
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Dianne! I'm so sorry. Was he, by any chance, a JW? Just curious. Since surviving breast cancer, I try very hard not to take anyone for granted, or rather, I am more aware of how easy it is to do that. But life happens and we fly along with the wind and forget to stop and look around us and offer a thank you into the air. We also forget to make sure that all our loved ones know they are loved by us.
A mutual friend of the friend who died had made a plan to visit with her today. He had wanted to come last Tuesday to visit, but because he had to take a short flight to get to her, she convinced him to wait a week for airfare to be half the price. He agreed and now he is just devastated that he could have seen her before she died. That's another lesson that I've learned; when you have an instinct that something needs to be done right away, don't wait! Follow that instinct and make it happen right away. You may not know at the moment why, but we sometimes feel an urgency to do something and there turns out to be a very good reason. Does anyone have an example from your own life of this? I would love to hear some!
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Hi Michelle. No, he wasn't a JW.
And thank you (and everyone else) for the kind words.
The story of your friend who delayed seeing her before she died is a common one. It leaves that person with a sense of guilt, but it is really unjustified - we have no control over some events.
I knew my cousin was having personal difficulties - the last I saw him was at my auntie's funeral a couple years back and the darkness that I saw and felt when I looked at him was palatable. We didn't speak much at the funeral and for that, I am sorry, as we always had a close connection even though not spending a lot of time together. I have had that happen before - sometimes, when I look at somebody, I see darkness surrounding them...and then I hear that they have died soon after. Yeah...I know...there is no scientific proof and all of that...but, it happens to me. And I don't like it - it makes me sad and I wonder why no-one else can see it.
When my father called, I could tell immediately from his voice that something bad had happened in the family, and, truly...this is not a fabrication...Dennis' face flashed in my mind and before Dad told me that he committed suicide, I already knew. My cousin's suicide was not a surprise - it was just upsetting.
I always try to listen to that 'sense' that I have to go and be with someone. It is a feeling that is so overwhelming and powerful sometimes that I cannot ignore it. That has happened several times to me - I have even picked up and moved because of it - and each time, I have attended someone's death. Maybe I have a 'calling' for it...I don't know...I have been told I have, even by medical professionals that have been involved in the events surrounding the death. But it makes me nervous now...I have started to ignore the feelings and I find myself retreating from intimate relationships...I don't have the energy to help too many more people die. It has taken an awful lot out of me over the years. It might be different if I didn't know the dying person - but each time it has been someone close to me.
I am resting right now...nobody in my life is dying right now...not in the immediate sense...we are all dying. But, if ya needed someone there to help you when ya go...just send out the telepathic info...and I would try to answer, if I could. I am experienced in giving someone the care they need, in administering the final needles and closing their eyelids after they are gone. I have done it before, and I know I will have do it again someday.
I love you, Michelle...today is a good day...every day is good.
making out
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Pancreatic Cancer is one of the fastest and most Evil of them all. Heartfelt Sorrow for your loss. Find comfort that they are in the hands of Jesus now!
THis reminds us to all get our regular testing! (over 40 Yuk)
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rural or urban???
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offline1moxjdub
rural or urban???
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I kind of had this discussion before in a previous post but I would like to pose this question to all of you dedicated zealous publishers of the "good news". Sn-good news my ass! Has anyone you ever talked to acted like they were receiving good news? I can say for myself hell no! But I digress.
My question is did you prefer rural territory or urban/suburban territory, houses close together you are out there on the street walking. If you're answer is anything other than rural territory you were probably doing it wrong.
Here's the perfect way to do it. OK so at the fs meeting you volunteer to work this way out of the way territory deep in the country to reach those poor souls who don't get to see witnesses. At least 45 minutes by car. When you leave the meeting point make sure you make a return visit on old faithful nice person always home but never leaving their church householder. Stay shoot the shit them for about 15 min. This way you can start your time and time meter is running for the entire 45 min drive.
It always helps to have at least one kid with you because after around 3 or 4 doors you can convince them that they have to go to the bathroom. The nearest mcdonalds is 30 min away so you have to drive way out there might as well have coffee and a biscuit. Then drive way back to the territory maybe hit one or two more houses on the long winding road. Drive back to civilization another old faithful return visit and you are done maybe talked to 2 people and you got 4 hours in you don't have to go out in service next week
In urban/suburban territory as soon as you hit the neighborhood they know that you are there. Neighbors call each other to warn them that the kooks are back. No one answers the door and now you and your partner look like a couple of morons going up and down walkways to doors ringing doorbells, knocking on screens, jiggling fences, leaving tracts and not killing a whole lot of time in the process. Used to be agonizing to me.
I hated it all and am glad that I will never do it again but at the time my thought was give me rural any day.
status offlineeewx2
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I hated it all. I think I hated rural more cuz I always had to go to the bathroom and my mom wouldn't leave the territory so I could go. I am convinced that is why I have bladder problems to this day. My mom was so mean! LOL
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Yea...rural territory was fun. Also, being with ones my age ONLY I would convince them to do a few doors out in the boonies and then a nice long bathroom break at Starbucks followed by lunch would call it a day.
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Rural for sure. The long drives ate up time. Big plus, I wasn't going to meet any classmates at doors since our rural territories were in another school district.
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Yeah, the way-out places were kind of fun, Spent more time driving than talking to anyone.
“There is something in every one of you that waits and listens for the sound of the genuine in yourself. It is the only true guide you will ever
have. And if you cannot hear it, you will all of your life spend your days on the ends of strings that somebody else pulls.” - Howard Thurman
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JW mom and senile/oldtimers disease?
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offlinematitalica
JW mom and senile/oldtimers disease?
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My jw mom, jw for 50 plus years is starting to show signs of her age and Alzheimer's. But then again she already has a mental illness, the main one is narcissism, so I can't tell if it's her old age or her narcissism that is causing her to behave the way she is behaving. I automaticly believe her long time belief has led to her her mental illness?
status offlinewhytebyrd2
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So what's the scoop on what she is doing? More info Matt....
But, I can almost piece this together...jw's who've been in for decades and now trying to deal with the new rebranded JW.borg(can't put their address in)
It's got to be causing major cognitive dissonant melt down!
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
t.s.eliot
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Last week was a topper: in the laundry room is a utility shelf and she put handfuls of dogfood in different spots on the shelf, even hiding in a rolled up work jacket that I no longer use.
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Sounds like real dementia to me.
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It sounds like your mom's mind is going downhill. You might want to think about taking her to a doctor and get the situation checked out.
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Is your mom taking any medications, matt? Sometimes if the dosages are off drug effects can look like dementia. It's worth looking into if you can coax her into seeing a doctor.
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Yeah, sg, I finally put two and two together, last couple of months she started taking oxycotton for her back pain (overweight and old). I also found dog food inside of my tool belt, I think she did it when I was out of town.
status offlinebirdwoman2
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Oxycontin, Matt? Wow.
No wonder she is acting like she is losing her marbles.
2 months on oxycontin means that your mother probably has a far different problem than dementia.
Oycontin is a nasty drug. Nasty. It is upsetting to hear that a medical doctor would prescribe it to an aging woman, and that she would take it when there has been so much media coverage of the extremely high risk to becoming addicted rapidly to oxycontin.
Good luck, Matt...to both you and your mom.
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Oxyconton is powerful stuff. On the one hand, it's sometimes the only thing that will make certain kinds of pain bearable. The big downside, its soooo easy to abuse. I'd definitely bring it up to her doctor. Maybe there's something else they could give her.
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I remember when the family was worried that my grandma had dementia. It turned out to be caused by a medication she was taking.
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Hopefully her doctor can find an alternative medication that can help alleviate her pain and help bring her back to normal. I will be sending positive thoughts your way that this is possible.
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Matt:
Years ago, one of my my jw grandmas had a big Vicodin/Darvon habit. Same reasons, and same behaviors as you describe. She was also a 'born in'.
You are not alone here...
T
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One big issue is an elder has medical power of attorney. They will say hello to me but would probably doubt anything I told them. A fellow sister or brother or two would have to be witnessing her behavior.
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That does make things harder, having to deal with an elder. I don't think the 'two witness rule' applies to medical matters, only accusations against another person. I could be wrong though. I'm not sure in this situation what options you might have.
status offlinePapillon1960
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I have been on many different meds for awhile and I started to feel strange. By strange I mean I was confused, very dizzy, I had uncontrollable tremors, couldn't remember simple things like how to get around in my own town, (I had to stop driving for a year) I had rage, depression, suicidal, (I was hospitalized a year ago) headaches, very unsteady on my feet and fell a number of times, and blurry vision. I decided to try going off the Lyrica that I was taking for fibromyalgia. I did research online first but did not consult my doctor. (I don't recommend doing that.) Out of all my meds, the Lyrica seemed to be the safest to wean off of. (I have since seen two of my doctors and have told them)
Since I stopped the lyrica, I am feeling much better. I am still having some confusion and memory and visual issues, but the rest of the symptoms have gotten much better and some have gone away altogether. I no longer shake like a Parkinson patient and I am not as unsteady in my gait. Of course, I am in a lot of pain as the lyrical was helping with that, but my doctor has started me on something and I am hoping it will help with the pain. I encourage anyone who is on lots of meds to go online and look up all the side affects for every medication they are on. You may be surprised at how many side affects you are experiencing. Also, look at drug interactions. Doctors are very busy and sometimes may prescribe drugs that do not interact well together. Be proactive on your own behalf. The internet has helped me be proactive and informed on my own health care.
I may still have some form of dementia, but I will cross that bridge if I get to it. I hope this has helped. Love and hugs-Michele
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Can I have some Mat? Hehe THats dangerous stuff
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Pyramids and Jehovah's Witnesses
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Pyramids and Jehovah's Witnesses
Many Jehovah’s Witnesses may be surprised to know that the founder of their religion Charles Taze Russell founded the Jehovah's Witness religion based on Pyramidology. Russell tied in the measurements of the internal passageways of the Great Pyramid of Giza to first calculate the pivotal date of 1914. That's right, 1914 was based on the measurements of pyramids!
So, then, if we measure backward down the "First Ascending Passage" to its junction with the "Entrance Passage," we shall have a fixed date to mark upon the downward passage. This measure is 1542 inches, and indicates the year B.C. 1542, as the date at that point. Then measuring down the "Entrance Passage" from that point, to find the distance to the entrance of the "Pit," representing the great trouble and destruction with which this age is to close, when evil will be overthrown from power, we find it to be 3457 inches, symbolizing 3457 years from the above date, B.C. 1542. This calculation shows AD. 1915 as marking the beginning of the period of trouble; for 1542 years B.C. plus 1915 years AD. equals 3457 years. Thus the Pyramid witnesses that the close of 1914 will be the beginning of the time of trouble such as was not since there was a nation -- no, nor ever shall be afterward. And thus it will be noted that this "Witness" fully corroborates the' Bible testimony on this subject...
Thy Kingdom Come 1910 ed. Studies In The Scriptures vol3 p.342
In 1928 the Watchtower society abandoned the pyramidology from their religion but kept the 1914 date, which required them to come up with a new way of calculating it because it is so pivotal to their religious beliefs. To do this, they had to fudge the numbers of the fall of Jerusalem to 607 BCE, when all reference books, both secular and religious, agree that Jerusalem was actually destroyed in 587-586 BCE.
Below you can see the grave site of Charles Taze Russell, and a memorial pyramid stone put there by the Watchtower society. Also interesting is the cross on the stone, which Jehovah's Witnesses later denounced.
Charles Taze Russell's Grave Site
Related Artcles:
587 or 607? The 1914 Farce
JFFacts: Da Vinci Code - Watchtower, Adventists & Freemasonry
Wikipedia on JW's and Pyramids
1311 days ago
Comments
Order by: oldest firstnewest first expand all
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RR144:
You realize that this is a misconception by many. Russell never used the pyramid to calculate his dates. The dates were already calculated using scripture and history. If you read his earlier writings before he wrote and published Volume 3 of Studies in the Scriptures, you would know that.
In fact, the date was calculated before there was a Watchtower Society. The date was originally promoted by Nelson Barbour, who borrowed it from others. So if anything. It is a hand me down date.
Russell found that the measurements and passages of the Great Pyramid to coincide with his dates and theology, not the other way around.
710 days ago
1 point
tydanger:
Its new light, right? That means its ever changing.
1052 days ago
1 point
tinysadpanda:
im speechless :O
1135 days ago
1 point
nugget:
short and to the point. Great to see the referencing of earlier publications.
1307 days ago
1 point
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Article
Pyramids and Jehovah's Witnesses
Many Jehovah’s Witnesses may be surprised to know that the founder of their religion Charles Taze Russell founded the Jehovah's Witness religion based on Pyramidology. Russell tied in the measurements of the internal passageways of the Great Pyramid of Giza to first calculate the pivotal date of 1914. That's right, 1914 was based on the measurements of pyramids!
So, then, if we measure backward down the "First Ascending Passage" to its junction with the "Entrance Passage," we shall have a fixed date to mark upon the downward passage. This measure is 1542 inches, and indicates the year B.C. 1542, as the date at that point. Then measuring down the "Entrance Passage" from that point, to find the distance to the entrance of the "Pit," representing the great trouble and destruction with which this age is to close, when evil will be overthrown from power, we find it to be 3457 inches, symbolizing 3457 years from the above date, B.C. 1542. This calculation shows AD. 1915 as marking the beginning of the period of trouble; for 1542 years B.C. plus 1915 years AD. equals 3457 years. Thus the Pyramid witnesses that the close of 1914 will be the beginning of the time of trouble such as was not since there was a nation -- no, nor ever shall be afterward. And thus it will be noted that this "Witness" fully corroborates the' Bible testimony on this subject...
Thy Kingdom Come 1910 ed. Studies In The Scriptures vol3 p.342
In 1928 the Watchtower society abandoned the pyramidology from their religion but kept the 1914 date, which required them to come up with a new way of calculating it because it is so pivotal to their religious beliefs. To do this, they had to fudge the numbers of the fall of Jerusalem to 607 BCE, when all reference books, both secular and religious, agree that Jerusalem was actually destroyed in 587-586 BCE.
Below you can see the grave site of Charles Taze Russell, and a memorial pyramid stone put there by the Watchtower society. Also interesting is the cross on the stone, which Jehovah's Witnesses later denounced.
Charles Taze Russell's Grave Site
Related Artcles:
587 or 607? The 1914 Farce
JFFacts: Da Vinci Code - Watchtower, Adventists & Freemasonry
Wikipedia on JW's and Pyramids
1311 days ago
Comments
Order by: oldest firstnewest first expand all
Per page: … 10 20 50 100 200
RR144:
You realize that this is a misconception by many. Russell never used the pyramid to calculate his dates. The dates were already calculated using scripture and history. If you read his earlier writings before he wrote and published Volume 3 of Studies in the Scriptures, you would know that.
In fact, the date was calculated before there was a Watchtower Society. The date was originally promoted by Nelson Barbour, who borrowed it from others. So if anything. It is a hand me down date.
Russell found that the measurements and passages of the Great Pyramid to coincide with his dates and theology, not the other way around.
710 days ago
1 point
tydanger:
Its new light, right? That means its ever changing.
1052 days ago
1 point
tinysadpanda:
im speechless :O
1135 days ago
1 point
nugget:
short and to the point. Great to see the referencing of earlier publications.
1307 days ago
1 point
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Can Science Prove The Noah's Ark Flood Actually Happend?
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Can Science Prove The Noah's Ark Flood Actually Happend?
Can Science Prove The Noah's Ark Flood Actually Happened?
The question as to whether the story of Noah's Ark and The Flood actually happened is often disputed by secular groups. Common disputes we see are:
•Why would a loving and merciful God flood the entire planet killing everything on it simply to kill the few thousand people that were alive at the time? Wouldn't it have been much smarter and merciful to simply turn them off with instant heart attacks or similar? And what did the animals do to deserve that?
•There is no such evidence for a global catastrophe in the archaeological record, only extensive evidence for the contrary. Had there been a disaster that reduced the world’s human population to a mere handful while destroying most cultural artifacts, it must inevitably have taken at least centuries to get civilization back up and running again. The newer civilizations would have also been considerably different from the old as no one ever rebuilds something exactly the same as it was before. Finally there would have only been a single civilization after the flood since Noah’s family would have been the only ones around to get things going again for the human race. Alas, the archaeological record shows us that various civilizations around the world and the human race carried on in a steady fashion before, during, and after the flood supposedly took place with no evidence of such a disaster. Read The Top 8 Reasons Why We Know The Flood Never Happened
•How did all of the species of animals get from other continents across the oceans, rain forests, and deserts to get onto the Ark?
•Conversely, how did they get from the Ark back to where they live now? The penguins to the South Pole (but not the north), the kangaroos to Australia, etc. And yet there is no fossil record of that journey.
•How could the Ark really carry the thousands of kinds of animals on the Earth on it, not to mention the food for them all, especially since many animals EAT OTHER ANIMIALS! How did they keep the food from spoiling? How did they dispose of the tons of daily animal waste?
•According to the Bible the entire world was covered in water during the flood, even the top of the highest mountains. To cover the Earth like that it would take 5 times the amount of water in the oceans.
•Even if God miraculously caused that much water to appear, the amount of water needed to cover the planet would have dramatically changed the Earth’s atmosphere to have a massive amount of water vapors dissolved in it, so much that Noah's family and the animals would have literally drowned just by breathing! Plus there would be so much atmospheric pressure that his bones would have literally been crushed.
•Tree ring records tell us of climate changes over the past 10,000 years and they don’t show that such a catastrophe occurred during the supposed time of the “Great Flood,” or at all.
•Salt water would have killed all fresh water fish when it flooded. And how did the fresh water fish get back to the lakes and ponds when the water receded?
•Ice cores from Greenland have been dated back more than 40,000 years by counting annual layers. A worldwide flood would leave a layer of sediments, noticeable changes in salinity and oxygen isotope ratios, fractures from buoyancy and thermal stresses, a hiatus in trapped air bubbles, and other evidence...yet no such evidence exists.
•The Bible says the ark was made entirely of wood and was about 450 feet long, but as any boat manufacturer will tell you that a wooden vessel that size would not only not stay afloat, but would break apart right away from all the stress, even without all the animals on it and violent storms. Wood is simply not strong enough. The longest wooden ships are only about 300 feet long, 150 less than Noah’s, and even in ancient times they required reinforcing with iron straps. Even then they still leaked so badly they constantly required pumping.
•Why aren't craters that predate the flood, like Meteor Crater, full of water? At the very least why wasn't it filled with debris and mud from being under water?
•Many plants that are around today, including their seeds, would be killed if they were submerged in salt water for 150 days.
•The flood story in Genesis is only the most popular of many ancient flood myths. There are three known Babylonian flood stories written long before Genesis that tell the exact same story as the Bible with only variations in minor details. Learn More
Ark vs. Titanic
Room on the Ark
San Diego Zoo vs. Noah's Ark
So what do you think considering these arguments? Leave a comment below or contact us with your thoughts.
Related Articles:
The Bible: Stolen Stories?
Letters to and From the Watchtower Society Concerning Noah's Flood
Related videos:
Noah's Ark - God, Giraffes & Genocide
Joe Rogan on Noah's Ark
Jim Jefferies On Religion
1718 days ago
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dablwa:
This all makes so much sense and yet we just accepted that the flood was fact and we were not allowed to research about any of the above for fear of being labelled as apostates!
1657 days ago
3 points
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Can Science Prove The Noah's Ark Flood Actually Happend?
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Article
Can Science Prove The Noah's Ark Flood Actually Happend?
Can Science Prove The Noah's Ark Flood Actually Happened?
The question as to whether the story of Noah's Ark and The Flood actually happened is often disputed by secular groups. Common disputes we see are:
•Why would a loving and merciful God flood the entire planet killing everything on it simply to kill the few thousand people that were alive at the time? Wouldn't it have been much smarter and merciful to simply turn them off with instant heart attacks or similar? And what did the animals do to deserve that?
•There is no such evidence for a global catastrophe in the archaeological record, only extensive evidence for the contrary. Had there been a disaster that reduced the world’s human population to a mere handful while destroying most cultural artifacts, it must inevitably have taken at least centuries to get civilization back up and running again. The newer civilizations would have also been considerably different from the old as no one ever rebuilds something exactly the same as it was before. Finally there would have only been a single civilization after the flood since Noah’s family would have been the only ones around to get things going again for the human race. Alas, the archaeological record shows us that various civilizations around the world and the human race carried on in a steady fashion before, during, and after the flood supposedly took place with no evidence of such a disaster. Read The Top 8 Reasons Why We Know The Flood Never Happened
•How did all of the species of animals get from other continents across the oceans, rain forests, and deserts to get onto the Ark?
•Conversely, how did they get from the Ark back to where they live now? The penguins to the South Pole (but not the north), the kangaroos to Australia, etc. And yet there is no fossil record of that journey.
•How could the Ark really carry the thousands of kinds of animals on the Earth on it, not to mention the food for them all, especially since many animals EAT OTHER ANIMIALS! How did they keep the food from spoiling? How did they dispose of the tons of daily animal waste?
•According to the Bible the entire world was covered in water during the flood, even the top of the highest mountains. To cover the Earth like that it would take 5 times the amount of water in the oceans.
•Even if God miraculously caused that much water to appear, the amount of water needed to cover the planet would have dramatically changed the Earth’s atmosphere to have a massive amount of water vapors dissolved in it, so much that Noah's family and the animals would have literally drowned just by breathing! Plus there would be so much atmospheric pressure that his bones would have literally been crushed.
•Tree ring records tell us of climate changes over the past 10,000 years and they don’t show that such a catastrophe occurred during the supposed time of the “Great Flood,” or at all.
•Salt water would have killed all fresh water fish when it flooded. And how did the fresh water fish get back to the lakes and ponds when the water receded?
•Ice cores from Greenland have been dated back more than 40,000 years by counting annual layers. A worldwide flood would leave a layer of sediments, noticeable changes in salinity and oxygen isotope ratios, fractures from buoyancy and thermal stresses, a hiatus in trapped air bubbles, and other evidence...yet no such evidence exists.
•The Bible says the ark was made entirely of wood and was about 450 feet long, but as any boat manufacturer will tell you that a wooden vessel that size would not only not stay afloat, but would break apart right away from all the stress, even without all the animals on it and violent storms. Wood is simply not strong enough. The longest wooden ships are only about 300 feet long, 150 less than Noah’s, and even in ancient times they required reinforcing with iron straps. Even then they still leaked so badly they constantly required pumping.
•Why aren't craters that predate the flood, like Meteor Crater, full of water? At the very least why wasn't it filled with debris and mud from being under water?
•Many plants that are around today, including their seeds, would be killed if they were submerged in salt water for 150 days.
•The flood story in Genesis is only the most popular of many ancient flood myths. There are three known Babylonian flood stories written long before Genesis that tell the exact same story as the Bible with only variations in minor details. Learn More
Ark vs. Titanic
Room on the Ark
San Diego Zoo vs. Noah's Ark
So what do you think considering these arguments? Leave a comment below or contact us with your thoughts.
Related Articles:
The Bible: Stolen Stories?
Letters to and From the Watchtower Society Concerning Noah's Flood
Related videos:
Noah's Ark - God, Giraffes & Genocide
Joe Rogan on Noah's Ark
Jim Jefferies On Religion
1718 days ago
Comments
Order by: oldest firstnewest first expand all
Per page: … 10 20 50 100 200
dablwa:
This all makes so much sense and yet we just accepted that the flood was fact and we were not allowed to research about any of the above for fear of being labelled as apostates!
1657 days ago
3 points
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