Homophobic comments from OJ's part 7

 

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Forward Forum

Gay Marriage and ‘Religious Freedom’
Opinion
By Jay Michaelson
Published August 18, 2010, issue of August 27, 2010.
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The historic decision striking down California’s Proposition 8 affirms what many of us in the movement for GLBT equality have known all along: The fight over gay marriage is really a battle about whether we want religion to dictate our laws.
Take away all the pseudo-sociology, the unsubstantiated (and demonstrably false) claims about how children do better when raised by mixed-gender couples and the understandable fear of change. What’s left over, Judge Vaughn Walker observed in Perry v. Schwarzenegger, is a religiously motivated feeling that homosexuality is immoral. This is why Prop. 8 did not even pass the lenient “rational basis” standard of review — because religious animus is not a rational basis for making law.
Related ◾A Tale of Two Cases: Why a Christian Club Matters More Than a Desert Cross
◾Orthodox Look at Gay Nups Proposal
◾The Apartheid of Love
◾Prop 8 and the Right To Love
◾After Jewish Battle, Prop. 8 Passes
◾Orthodox Join Fight Against Gay Nuptials
In other words, this debate is not about families, child welfare or any other secular value. Instead, same-sex marriage is a battleground in the much larger debates about the proper relationship between religion and state.
No wonder, then, that the majority of American Jews have shown support for gay rights. It’s not necessarily that our community is so much more enlightened or tolerant than others; it’s that we know religious coercion when we see it.
The great exception to this near-consensus among American Jews is the Orthodox community. Indeed, in responding to the ruling in Perry, the Orthodox Union stated that it was “disappointed.” Why? Not merely because of its “religious values” — which, the O.U. was quick to claim, “we do not seek to impose on anyone.” Rather, the O.U. said, it is upset because the decision threatens “the fundamental civil right of religious freedom.”
Really? What religious freedom is threatened by my ability to marry my partner? The freedom to control my life?
Well, no, according to the O.U. What, then? They haven’t really said, preferring to issue vague, ominous pronouncements: “Already, in states with same-sex civil unions and similar laws, religious institutions, including churches, social service providers and youth groups have been penalized by authorities for their beliefs,” the O.U. stated.
Penalized how? The O.U. doesn’t say.
Surely, vague threats such as these lead some people to believe the worst. Will yeshivas be compelled to teach about David and Jonathan’s same-sex marriage (1 Samuel 18:21) alongside Abraham, Sarah and Hagar’s polygamous one? No — no one is suggesting that. Will Orthodox rabbis be forced to perform gay weddings? Even the O.U.’s public policy director, Nathan Diament, has conceded: “you can’t have a basic understanding of the First Amendment and think that.”
So what kind of “penalty” are we talking about?
Maybe the answer is financial. Orthodox yeshivas, charities and communal institutions now receive millions of dollars from the federal government for faith-based initiatives, educational aid and other programs. These institutions might well be “penalized” for not recognizing the eligibility of same-sex spouses of their employees for benefits, just like school groups at public universities are required adhere to basic nondiscrimination rules.
Of course, they could just forego the cash if they don’t like the strings attached. No cash, no problem: Religious institutions are almost always exempted from non-discrimination rules, unless they want benefits from the government. Then again, it is a lot of cash.
Or maybe there’s another reason. Surely, notwithstanding the O.U.’s rhetoric, the real issue here is what kind of America we want to live in. Gay rights, women’s rights, abortion rights — these are symbols of a much larger, much older conflict about the limits of intertwining church and state, about how much we want religious values to inform civil law.
And in that struggle, our Orthodox brothers’ anti-separationism is misguided. Since the days of George Washington’s letter to the Hebrew Congregation of Newport, American Jews have thrived precisely because our country keeps religion and state apart. No doubt this is why the O.U. is an outlier in the Jewish community: because most of us understand that religious minorities benefit from more separation, not less. Same-sex marriage doesn’t curtail religious liberty; it protects it, by limiting the unholy shatnez of church and state.
Whatever our religious values, the existence of a secular public space — including same-sex marriage, the right to control one’s own body and, perhaps one day, equality of the sexes — does not intrude upon the rights of minority religions such as ours. On the contrary, it strengthens them.
Jay Michaelson is founder of Nehirim: GLBT Jewish Culture & Spirituality and the author of a forthcoming book on the religious case for gay rights. He writes “The Polymath” column for the Forward and was recently a visiting assistant professor of law and religion at Boston University School of Law.


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+10  
 Aurora 's avatar 
Aurora  · 165 weeks ago

I don't think freedom of religion should not extend to denying civil liberties or allow discrimination. But that is, in the current climate, a radical idea that many Americans don't share.
If you have some religious objection to gay marriage- the you should advocate for a pure separation- civil marriages done by government clerks and open to all, religious ceremonies controlled by religious officials, but having no legal standing. Unfortunately I think we are far away from the true seperation of Church and State that would allow this to happen.

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2 replies  · active 165 weeks ago


-5  
 davidf15x's avatar 
davidf15x  · 165 weeks ago

But the state has the right to regulate marriage. The state regulates everything --at the behest of the political left--so why not marriage. The state has an overriding interest in marriage since the marital unit is the basic societal building block. If one is underage--a standard set forth by the government--no marriage. If you wish to marry a close relative--no marriage. The state requires a marital unit to be a man and a woman--not because they are religious bigots but because marriage must be a union of a male and a female to be a marriage. Further, government historically regulates sexual behavior--many of these laws in most states have been dropped but marriage remains as a context for sexual relations officially sanctioned by the state.

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-6  
 davidf15x's avatar 
davidf15x  · 165 weeks ago

Further--all laws are "discriminations." To take a stand against discrimination is to take a stand against almost all law. A civil liberty is not withheld to any individual--but if individuals wish to opt out--it is fine for them to opt out. Many people choose not to vote and they do not vote because they do not get to vote for the persons they wish or the type of society they wish--fine--they should not vote. If I was attracted to men--I surely would not wish to marry a woman. Fine. But to punish all of society because I wanted to opt out makes no sense. A lesbian prefers a woman--each has the option to marry a man but prefers another woman--they therefore agree to prefer to not be married. Fine--it is a choice in a free society.

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+4  
 Norm's avatar 
Norm  · 164 weeks ago

While I believe you may overstate some aspects of your case, I am writing only because you are basically right and don't deserve the obnoxious comments above.
Any Jews who believe that bring government close to religion in America will have long-run benefits for Jews are simply wrong. And any who think the government should be regulzating who can marry are not merely incorrect, but definitely need to repent.

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+3  
 greggersh's avatar - Go to profile
greggersh   · 165 weeks ago

How is 1 Samuel 18:21 a reference to David and Jonathan's homosexual relationship? It says:
"And Saul said: 'I will give him her, that she may be a snare to him, and that the hand of the Philistines may be against him.' Wherefore Saul said to David: 'Thou shalt this day be my son-in-law through the one of the twain."
referring to David's marriage to Saul's daughter Michal. Did you mean the beginning of that chapter?

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+1  
 Shalom in NJ's avatar 
Shalom in NJ  · 164 weeks ago

To Barry,
Surely you know that the Jewish belief is that G-d gave us the Written and Oral Torah, and that no Traditional Jews have ever believed that all of the laws are contained in the Written Torah. While your belief in Judaism is your business, please don't misrepresent our beliefs with your make believe version of what we must defend. As you must know, the Written Torah doesn't tell us what the 'totafot' are that we must use daily, or what kosher slaughter is, or what it means to 'shamor' or 'zachor' the Shabbat. You are certainly free to believe or not, but lets not pretend, shall we?

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0  
 Andy Marcus's avatar 
Andy Marcus  · 129 weeks ago

The horrible antisemitic comments of so called "rabbi" Tony Jutner should be deleted from this site.

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0  
 Rabbi Tony Jutner's avatar 
Rabbi Tony Jutner  · 164 weeks ago

I fully support Jay Michelson and NewJudaism fully supports gay marriage. I think that Orthodox "rabbis" should be forced to perform gay marriages or be found guilty of antidiscrimination statues

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4 replies  · active 162 weeks ago


0  
 davidf15x's avatar 
davidf15x  · 164 weeks ago

It is beyond galling that you can publicly condemn Rabbis and I really wonder what part of chillul Hashem do you fail to grasp? Decency demands you refrain from writing anything under the title of "rabbi"--again. How and why do you persist--you are called out and decried every time and yet you keep trying. Why? Do you have anything positive to say ever?

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0  
 Rabbi Tony Jutner's avatar 
Rabbi Tony Jutner  · 164 weeks ago

I have everything positive to say about NewJudaism, which demands social justice, economic justice, and the rights of endogenous peoples, especially the Palestinians, to their lands. I have nothing positive to say about fossilized Judaism, which is bringing the opprobrium of the world upon us for our stubborn desire to have a state. Many influential Jews in principle agree with my principles, such as Naomi Klein, Noam Chomsky, Tony Kushner, and many many others, perhaps including Mr Michaelson

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0  
 Joseph dagan 's avatar 
Joseph dagan  · 162 weeks ago

I just couldn’t , not responding to this unbelievable croup about we don’t have to have a country you mean you don’t believe that we are back to the land that we where forced to leave some years ago ?? than can you explain to me why it is necessary for the so called Palestinian to create a country they never had in the first place ? you got history wrong my friend you luck king David didn’t lesson to you Etc Etc ho yes that is why the Hebrew cross the sea unharmed or that is just a fake story? Please go to sleep and don’t tell us your bad dreams who appointed you rabbi ?if there is no israel than you can't be a jew ask why ? becouse your a fake a simple as that .may be you can find your answer on the internet

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0  
 davidf15x's avatar 
davidf15x  · 163 weeks ago

So you want a contest concerning who is a fossil and who is not? What kind of gall is this? To say that Orthodox Judaism and a growing number of BT's is growing exponentially would not only be accurate--it is quite a statement concerning what is fossilized. The fact that antisemites have a place in the world is a sickening reminder of the work the Jewish people have to do. Apostate Jews are truly fossils--Elul is here, Yom Kippur is coming--you still have a chance Mr. Jutner.

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-1  
 Miriam's avatar 
Miriam  · 165 weeks ago

What is embarassing is the President of the United States, Barack Obama, said privately and publicly that he doesn't support marriage between a man and a woman. I am offended and am waiting for an apology and a public retraction from the most powerful man on the planet. Based on his statements, I think he is homophobic and fearful of marriage between two men. Thank you.

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1 reply  · active less than 1 minute ago


-2  
 davidf15x's avatar 
davidf15x  · 165 weeks ago

It sems these two Miriams, writing under the same name at the same moment--might want to get together since their opinions are so opposite.

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-2  
 's avatar - Go to profile
Lane אליעזר Silberstein  · 164 weeks ago

Tell it like it is, akhi, Jay Mike! This is why I used you in my thesis.

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-6  
 Miriam's avatar 
Miriam  · 165 weeks ago

This issue is only about 6 million American citizens voting democratically. What is a democracy and a fair open election mean when one old white man strikes down a proposition. What is next? A judge outlawing synagogues because they won't perform marriages between a jew and a muslim man?

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1 reply  · active 164 weeks ago


+5  
 Kep's avatar 
Kep  · 164 weeks ago

It has nothing to do with the opinion of the majority. In a democracy, the majority can't take away the rights of the minority.

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-7  
 davidf15x's avatar 
davidf15x  · 165 weeks ago

Jay M's premise here is totally wrong--a broad coalition brought Prop 8 to victory and the core of the black community, for example, is deeply offended by the use of gay marriage as a so-called "civil right." To ignore the base-line support for traditional marriage and by concocting a "religious" defense spins the issue away from the merits and towards the terms created by this really dopey Jude Walker who is demanding to be overturned and have his ears boxed. This is a runaway judge--the kind of incompetence that has created such disgust in the minds of Americans. And yet, even on Jay M's terms--he is really wrong since the force of law will not stop short at the porch of religious believers. This is why this kind of advocacy must be opposed where one gay man in a black robe can overturn the will of millions of people.

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5 replies  · active 101 weeks ago


+4  
 Barry 's avatar 
Barry  · 165 weeks ago

Where does it say in the torah a woman can't lie with another woman (marriage or sex)? Or are you rewriting the torah like Americans rewrite their constitution?

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-5  
 davidf15x's avatar 
davidf15x  · 165 weeks ago

No conservative wishes to re-write anything--this is the exclusive desire of the political Left. It is among the Noachide laws that posits against homosexual relations and the society which makes gives marital rights to homosexuals is "corrupt" according to our sources. The are verses in Leviticus and there is discussion of women in the Talmud. So ask a Rabbi with a kosher ordination (that is an Orthodox Rabbi) ask ask him for an opinion regarding homosexual marriage. Not one will say yes. It is unanimous and nothing has ever changed on this subject. So who is re-writing?

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+1  
 Barry S.'s avatar 
Barry S.  · 165 weeks ago

The noachide laws are not in torah. I ask you again, where does it say in the torah that a woman can't lie with another woman like a man? If it doesn't say anything about a woman, why are you taking what the torah says about a man and relate it to a woman. That is rewriting the Torah and is prohibited by Jews. In the Torah, there are laws specifically for men and women and homosexuality for woman is not prohibited anywhere in the Torah.

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+1  
 davidf15x's avatar 
davidf15x  · 164 weeks ago

I cannot understand your point here, Barry? Are you saying homosexuality is not a problem according to our Torah?
From the Chabad.org website: Lesbian relations are forbidden. This is "the conduct of Egypt" which we were warned against, as [Leviticus 18:3] states: "Do not follow the conduct of Egypt." Our Sages said:22 What would they do? A man would marry a man, a woman would marry a woman, and a woman would marry two men.
Although this conduct is forbidden,23 lashes are not given for it, for it is not a specific prohibition24 and there is no intercourse at all. Therefore such women are not forbidden to marry into the priesthood as zonot, nor does a woman become prohibited to her husband because of this,25 for this is not considered harlotry. It is, however, appropriate to give them stripes for rebellious conduct26 because they performed a transgression.

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0  
 Wayne's avatar 
Wayne  · 101 weeks ago

David, regarding your quote on "the conduct of Egypt." Our Sages said: A man would marry a man, a woman would marry a woman, and a woman would marry two men.
Most interesting! This is historical evidence that the traditional definition of marriage did indeed include same-sex marriage.

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-9  
 davidf15x's avatar 
davidf15x  · 165 weeks ago

A marriage is the union of a man and a woman--yes, Judaism has put forward the standard but it can be seen plainly by secular people as well since there are things only a father can teach a child and a mother can do for a child that are gender specific. We are as individuals both male and female and we marry iin an attempt to resolve and blend these opposing tendencies. The fact that gay relationships imitate normative ones in "dominant" and "submissive" roles is a shallow imitation of the real thing. Black Americans are offended at the "civil rights" suggestion, secular people and yes,many gay people as well do not wish to disturb baseline societal norms.

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-12  
 davidf15x's avatar 
davidf15x  · 165 weeks ago

This is a truly dreadful bit of opinion writing. It is all too easy to convulse over the ruling put together by Judge Walker since it is so irrational and so biased. It is the kind of ruling which demands to be overturned on its face. The very fact that America is both very friendly and hospitable to gay Americans and also very, very reluctant to trash the traditional definition of a marriage is completely understandable. Further, the fact that religious Americans and secular Americans are united in opposing gay marriage is also easy to understand. Gay marriage is not wrong because it is simply immoral, gay marriage is wrong because it ignores the prime attribute of gender in our society. To state, as Judge Walker stated, that marriage has always been about animus to gay people reads like a sick joke. The belief that people like Bill Clinton, Joe Biden, Obama, all Republicans, all Americans who have lived before 1970--etc--are all "bigots"--is the most juvenile kind of name-calling and could easily constitute cause for Walker to be thrown out of the bar. The people have spoken is dozens of states--marriage must be protected.

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Marriage Inequality: Not a Jewish Value
by Chris Bargeron  May 11, 2011

“Shall the Minnesota Constitution be amended to provide that only a union of one man and one woman shall be valid or recognized as a marriage in Minnesota? ___Yes   ___No”
S.F. No. 1308, as introduced – 87th Legislative Session (2011-2012)
548732528 364c8dbe75 b 225x300 Marriage Inequality: Not a Jewish Value
Oy, are we here again already? With a never-ending election cycle, that is played out in the 24×7 media, which in turn feeds the claims, counter-claims and stylized posturing of politicians, it should come as no surprise that the leadership of the GOP-controlled state Senate and House of Representatives has fired the opening salvo of the 2012 campaign. What is at issue? It is not the deficit, or jobs, or health care, although one could be excused for assuming that any of these important issues would figure prominently in the lead-up to our next election of state government leaders. Instead, state senators and representatives have been debating whether or not any Minnesotan may choose to enter into a legal marriage with the person they love.
Specifically, two bills are working their way through the State Senate and House of Representatives that, if approved by both bodies, would place a constitutional amendment before voters that bans same-sex marriage on the 2012 general election ballot. Under Minnesota law, if the proposed constitutional amendment is approved by the legislature it does not require the governor’s signature and goes directly to the ballot. The timing of this measure gives the appearance of strong political motivation, as it has become conventional wisdom that key wedge issues increase voter turnout, especially among socially conservative voters who are also more likely to vote for socially conservative (nearly always GOP) candidates.
In recent decades, many “wedge issues” equate to civil rights for women and gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgender (GLBT) people, and fair and reasonable treatment of undocumented immigrants. These divisive issues are exploited to shore up the power base of socially conservative politicians at the expense of marginalized or otherwise vulnerable people.
Now it is Minnesotans’ turn to determine whether or not we will put the civil rights of a minority of its citizens up to a vote of the majority in 2012.  I believe that this must not happen. Enshrining marriage inequality in the Minnesota Constitution is bad law and is inconsistent with Jewish values.
Bad Law
(Disclosure: I am not an attorney, so please use the following comments to begin your own inquiry on the legal consideration(s) of this issue.)
While state same-sex marriage bans have been key issues across the nation for several election cycles, such a ban in Minnesota would be redundant for two reasons. First, Minnesota banned marriages between two people of the same sex by statute in 1997. It is not possible for two men or two women to be issued a marriage license in Minnesota because it would be illegal for authorities to do so.
The second reason that same sex marriage ban amendment is redundant is particularly interesting. Minnesota has the distinction of being perhaps the first state in which its supreme court ruled that there is not a constitutional right for two people of the same sex to marry. In 1970 Richard Baker and James Michael McConnell applied for and were denied a marriage license in Minneapolis. They took their case all the way to the Minnesota Supreme Court and the resulting decision, known as Baker v. Nelson has been binding on state courts for more than 30 years. This is not an arcane legal technicality. Earlier this year, this precedent was cited by a Hennepin County trial court as it dismissed a lawsuit to overturn the statute banning same sex marriage.  Minnesota is unique among states in regard to the extent our same-sex marriage ban is deeply embedded in case law. As compared to the legal status quo, a constitutional amendment is clearly unnecessary, and brings forth questions about the political motivations of its proponents.
Proposition 8: California’s Same-Sex Marriage Ban
At the national level, one can’t but help to look to California’s legal battle over Proposition 8. In 2008, the voters of California approved a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, which had the effect of closing a brief window during which gay and lesbian people were permitted to marry same-sex partners in California.  A federal court found Prop 8 to be unconstitutional last year but the ruling was stayed pending appeal that will almost certainly be forthcoming.
The reason I am mentioning California is that the court ruling overturning Prop 8 made some very compelling findings of fact. Among these finds are (emphasis is mine):
•Marriage is a civil, not religious, matter.
•Individuals do not generally choose their sexual orientation. An individual does not, through conscious decision, therapeutic intervention or any other method, change sexual orientation.
•The State has no interest in asking gays and lesbians to change their orientation or in reducing the number of gays and lesbians…
•Marrying a person of the opposite sex is an unrealistic option for gays and lesbians.
•Domestic partnerships lack the social meaning associated with marriage.
•Gays and lesbians have a long history of being victims of discrimination.
•Religious beliefs that gay and lesbian relationships are sinful or inferior to heterosexual relationships harm gays and lesbians.
(Attribution: findings quoted above from Wikipedia article on the ruling, which cites each finding back to the court ruling.)
This case is about a California law, and may not have direct bearing on the ultimate outcome of a Minnesota constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage. However, each of these findings is intuitively true and therefore highly relevant. Further, a same-sex marriage ban is unjust. It unfairly targets gays, lesbians and their children for exclusion from the tangible and emotional benefits of companionship that, as we’ll explore next, is a sacred part of creation.
Jewish Values and Marriage Equality
As my rabbi taught recently, as Jews we affirm that every person is created in the image of God, and as we say in the Sh’ma every day, God is one. The natural extension of these two foundational elements of faith and tradition leads us to know that our connection to the Eternal One is inextricable from our connections with one another.
We also have a collective responsibility to honor and respect creation, and the Torah’s telling of the Creation story brings an interesting and perhaps surprising perspective to the question of marriage equality.
Jay Michaelson, a Jewish activist and scholar, visited Minneapolis in April and shared his views on the religious case for gay equality, with a particular focus on marriage. “The first, fundamental problem that God sees in creation is the problem of aloneness,” Michaelson said.  “After saying everything is good — the sky, the earth, the trees — suddenly God says, in Genesis 2:18, that ‘it is not good for a person to be alone.’  And so God sets about creating a companion for Adam.  Not a biological reproductive unit, mind you — a companion.
“Of course, Adam and Eve are the fundamental couple in the Genesis story, and they are heterosexual.  But Adam and Eve are the solution to a problem: the fundamental problem of aloneness.  So how do we understand this teaching today, now that we know that for about 5% of the population, that problem can only be solved by a person of the same sex?  The teaching holds: it is not good to be alone — and it is very good to be in a loving, committed partnership.  For most people, that partner will be of the opposite sex.  For some, the same sex.  But the religious value is the same in both cases: love heals the first flaw God finds in creation.”
In Michaelson’s upcoming book God vs. Gay?: The Religious Case for Equality, he analyzes the texts that are often used to condemn homosexual behavior and concludes, “there is no contradiction between these narrow prohibitions and the religious value of love.  None whatsoever.”
If we are to honor creation and our ties to all people, then we must recognize the inherent sacredness of all loving companionship. To establish laws that explicitly exclude one group of people from forming socially validated relationships – marriage – is to dishonor creation.
What You Can Do
When a democracy faces critical decision points, it is incumbent for all citizens to become involved. Here are a few simple suggestions on how you can engage with the issue of marriage equality.
Learn
Educate yourself on the issue of marriage equality and what is happening in Minnesota and nationally. Here are some resources to get started with:
Project 515: A Minnesota organization with a mission of working to ensure that same-sex couples and their families have equal rights and considerations under Minnesota law.
Outfront Minnesota: Advocates for equality for GLBT Minnesotans.
The Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism:  A summary of the Reform movement’s position on GLBT equality, including marriage equality.
Speak Out
Call your state senator and state representative now to urge them not to write inequality into Minnesota’s constitution. Talk to your friends and family and urge them to do the same thing.
Lend Your Support
Any of the organizations identified above can make great use of your time or financial support to further the cause of marriage equality.
(Image: Jewish Women’s Archive)

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About Chris Bargeron



Chris Bargeron endeavors to do his part to repair the world, one conversation or relationship at a time -- but tries not to think about it that way because that would be totally overwhelming. He is a non-profit leader, a clinical social worker, and writes about things that are on his mind. These days, Chris spends a lot of time thinking about living Jewishly and living well. He loves to read blog-post comments and hopes that you tell him what you're thinking about. Chris is a member of Shir Tikvah, and has a private psychotherapy practice in the Twin Cities. More information is available at www.bargeron.net.




Comments. Add Yours!



Matthew Gallagher
 May 11, 2011 at 10:34 AM


Good article! I’m a fairly conservative Republican and understand a lot about the arguments for those who want to preserve the current concept of marriage, but I enjoyed your points.
In your opinion, is the ability for a locality like MN to choose the laws they live by also a Jewish value? And if so, why does this trump that?
And also, can you conceptualize a form of marriage that would not be a Jewish value to support? Are there limits to your view of equality?
 


Chris Bargeron
 May 11, 2011 at 11:49 AM


@Matthew Gallagher: Thanks for your comment!
I believe that freedom from oppression and just governance are Jewish values. The ability for citizens to shape laws either directly, through the ballot, or indirectly, through their elected leaders, comes with the responsibility to maintain a just society. I believe that excluding gay and lesbian people from civil marriage is unjust, and that it is tantamount to oppression for the majority to impose this on a minority. In this instance, I believe the more compelling values are freedom from oppression and maintaining a just society.
Regarding your second question, my argument relates only to equal access to civil marriage for gay and lesbian people. I believe that the injustice at issue is the unfair restriction of access to marriage based solely on the sex of the two people wishing marry.
 


Mike
 May 11, 2011 at 2:10 PM


Chris,
If you think that the statement “Marriage is a civil, not religious, matter” “is intuitively true,” then why bring in the question of Jewish values at all?
I ask not because I oppose gay marriage (no, I support allowing it), but because I think that what Judaism has to say about it is in no way decisive.
What’s more, I suspect that you do, too. I don’t, of course, claim to know your mind, but answer this honestly — if it were somehow proven to you beyond all doubt that Judaism opposes gay marriage, would you switch to opposing it?
If so, then I apologize for challenging you a bit harshly. You are deeply principled, and, I strongly suspect, in a very small minority of our fellow opponents of the gay marriage ban.
If not, then I suggest that this argument, even if not entirely disingenuous, is unhelpful. If anything, by resting a part of your opposition to the ban on religion, you’re giving the ban’s supporters, a so-to-speak home-court advantage — you’re playing on their field.
Let’s be intellectually honest — the principled opposition to a ban on gay marriage is not based on religion. Freedom, equality, maybe — but not religion.
-Mike
P.S. I really like Jay Michaelson’s creative argument from Bereshit.
 


Chris Bargeron
 May 11, 2011 at 4:37 PM


@Mike: From my perspective, Jewish values are available to guide Am Yisrael, the Jewish people, and are inclusive of – but not limited to – Judaism. That said, while it is true that the constitutional amendment that could potentially be put before the voters in 2012 pertains to civil marriage and not religious marriage, I do not agree that religion has no place in the debate. I support same-sex marriage because everything I know deep in my soul to be true tells me that it is just. I have difficulty looking at this question in a dualistic/either-or frame. The same things that make me a religious liberal Jew tell me that marriage inequality is wrong.
I cannot authentically answer your question asking what I would do if it was proven to me that Judaism opposes gay marriage, because I cannot imagine that happening.
You may argue that if I cite my religious views as I advocate for marriage equality that opens the door to requiring that I validate those who cite their religious views as they argue to limit marriage. I agree that does provide a tactical challenge in the struggle for marriage equality. However, in the end all I can do – all any of us can do – is to speak the truth as I know it. Someone I know told me that the problem with the religious argument against equality for GLBT people is that religious liberal people have ceded the religious argument to the conservatives. How would it be if we could speak out for marriage equality *because* we are religious, and *not in spite of* being religious?
One last thing: I think that the poem “I am a Jew Because,” by Edmund Fleg, describes beautifully Jewish values that are rooted in Judaism but are not limited to religious people:
I am a Jew because my faith demands no abdication of the mind.
I am a Jew because my faith demands all the devotion of my heart.
I am a Jew because wherever there is suffering, the Jew weeps.
I am a Jew because whenever there is despair, the Jew hopes.
I am a Jew because the promise of our faith is a universal promise.
I am a Jew because for the Jew the world is not completed; people must complete it.
I am a Jew because for the Jew humanity is not fully created; people must complete it.
I am a Jew because the faith of the people of Israel places humanity above nations, above Judaism itself.
I am a Jew because the faith of the people of Israel places above humanity, image of the divine, the
 Oneness of God.
(http://www.creedia.com/en/content/i-am-jew-becauseby-edmund-fleg)
I appreciate your comment, Mike!
 


Jenna Zark
 May 11, 2011 at 10:01 PM


Great poem, Chris and great post. It’s interesting in the context of Torah, because I have heard the argument that same-sex marriage is forbidden; I always answer there are 613 laws, how many are you actually keeping? How many laws are actually in place that are observed by most (or any) of us today? And if you are keeping all 613, you must be sacrificing lambs or something. At the Temple.
 


Matthew Gallagher
 May 12, 2011 at 12:26 AM


But why just focus on the gender issue? I know plenty of people in plural relationships who’d love to be in plural marriage. It’s a state of marriage not only with precedent in human history, but pretty much all the most famous Biblical Jews/Hebrews were polygamists. None of them were gay. Is it injust to keep them from marrying as well?
Because to me the value that you point out, that man is not meant to be alone, is a higher value than some of these other considerations, but where does someone draw the line? And what authority backs up that line when drawn? It would be unjust to keep people apart, but we don’t keep people apart, they just can’t enter into what some say is an arbitrary institution. When can we say, as a community, that we aren’t well served by endorsing something? Does our right to create the communities we want to live in ever trump someone else’s desire to feel accepted?
 


Chris Bargeron
 May 12, 2011 at 11:42 AM


@Matthew Gallagher:
There is no consideration of the legal status of polygamy taking place in Minnesota. The question here is why qualified gay and lesbian people should be kept from marrying the person of their choice – not how many people can marry. I am not arguing that there should be no rules regarding legal access to marriage, but only that the same rules should be applied justly. The “where will this lead” argument was raised in the twentieth century when laws barring race discrimination in marriage were repealed, and they are being raised again as we advocate to end sex discrimination in marriage. The end of race restrictions in marriage 40+ years ago has not led to changes in laws against polygamy, and there is no credible reason to believe that will happen if Minnesota were to repeal legal restrictions against same-sex marriage. And that is not even on the table.
In my view there is a difference between creating communities where people “feel accepted” and maintaining a just society that provides equal access to civil marriage. There are a lot of places where I could find myself in which I would not feel accepted and, frankly, where I would not in actuality be accepted. For example, as a gay man there are many Orthodox Jewish communities where the validity of the life I live would be questioned by many if not most people in the community. As much as this may sadden me, both for me and more importantly for GLBT people who are born into these communities, I accept that there are communities of faithful people who do not choose to accept me. Further, I accept that someday I may have the opportunity to marry a man I love under the chuppah in my shul, while at the same time other Jewish communities will continue to reserve the marriage ritual for opposite-sex couples. None of this would change if gay and lesbian people were granted equal access to civil (i.e., secular), marriage.
People within religious institutions (synagogues, churches, mosques, and related organizations) are free to set the norms of religious marriage as they see as fit based on their religious views. A common refrain in this national debate has been “If you don’t want same-sex marriage, don’t have one. “ If the citizens of Minnesota get a vote on the sex of the person I can civilly marry, when I do not get a vote on the sex of the person you can civilly marry, that is unjust.
 


Mike
 May 12, 2011 at 9:59 PM


See, Chris, this is what happens when you get religion into it — they throw polygamous patriarchs in your face.
Matthew,
Those are valid points, as far as they go. But turnabout is fair play, too.
Where would you draw the line?
 And on what authority?
I presume your line includes marriage interracial unions. Why?
And, just for clarity’s sake — what exactly is wrong with plural marriage (assuming consenting adults all around)?
As for the right to create communities, my answer is whenever it’s a thoroughly private act.
 Otherwise, our American concern with individual rights trumps community feelings.
 As an example, people may create an all-one-race neighborhood by informal agreement, but if they involve the state by entering into (enforceable) contracts to accomplish this, that’s illegal.
 


Matthew Gallagher
 May 13, 2011 at 5:13 PM


I point on the patriarchs to note that polygamy has a rich history of acceptance, but gay marriage doesn’t. That doesn’t have anything to do with right or wrong, of course. It’s simply a fact, and if the point is whether gay marriage is a Jewish value, then you have to extend that standard to judge other things, otherwise it’s just you twisting religion to your own personal preferences.
When you argue, for instance, that gay marriage is a right, then you have to ask why other forms of marriage aren’t rights, or concede that they are. And if they are, then you have to accept that too. The definition of marriage is what it is. If you want to change it, then change it, but acknowledge that you’re changing it.
I don’t think government should be in the marriage business. I think marriage is a great institution, but social engineering isn’t the government’s job. This is also the position of the Israeli government, actually, who has no civil marriage. Only religious.
Short of that, I think that people have the right of self determination. Gays can form whatever unions are special to them, and if states, through their legislature or through popular vote, want to allow them, or polygamists, or anyone to have access to traditional marriage, then that’s perfectly fine. Let them choose. The authority is the consent of the governed.
I don’t think marriage is a right, period, so I don’t know how civil rights enter into the conversation. I don’t believe laws should take personal affection into account, so it’s not a question of equality to me.
I include interracial unions because there is no difference between a black man and a white man, but there is a difference between men and women. I think it’s well meaning, but very naive to compare gay people and black people. And I think most black people would agree with me. I’ve never got pulled over by a cop in Mississippi for being bisexual.
I just think arguments about why people are terribly bad for denying people their rights aren’t going to fly. They’re insulting, I think. And ineffective.
I want to see people make the case why gay marriage is good for marriage and why people should support it. Don’t say “it’s not a threat to your marriage, and by the way marriage is already ruined by a high divorce rate.” I hate that argument, because it shows a disrespect for the institution. Let me know why marriage will be strengthened by this! And let me decide. People have tender hearts. Nearly everyone, when they stop to think, empathizes. They just don’t want to end up like Europe where the marriage rate is crashing, and the birth rate is crashing, and people care more about taking care of themselves than raising a family.
Plural marriage isn’t wrong to me, but is ridiculously hard, and most people can’t do it. And it opens a huge bucket of worms financially, legally, and emotionally, and to allow it is an endorsement of it, which could seriously mess some people up. But if the citizenry wants it, than they can allow it. And people have the right to protect their communities from those effects. They don’t have the right to keep people apart, in their own eyes and the eyes of God.
Alright. TL;DR, but I hope I answered all your questions intelligently.
 


Chris Bargeron
 May 13, 2011 at 6:26 PM


@Jenna Zark: Thanks for your kind comments….they mean a lot.
 Chris
 


Mike
 May 14, 2011 at 9:55 AM


Matthew,
It looks to me like you and I are coming at this from entirely different perspectives. Yours is communitarian — prove to me that this is good for the community. Mine is that of individual rights — prove to me that this is not an unjustified limitation on individuals.
The American political culture — from the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution onwards in our history holds up individual rights, not community wishes. So, for example, state’s rights have consistently lost out to individual rights.
Maybe it’s not good for the community to have gay marriage. Maybe it’s not even good to have gays at all — they raise all these troublesome issues and divide the community. Jews, too. And blacks. I’m not putting this argument in our mouth, but there is an argument to be made that homogeneity (or at least conformity) is better for the community.
(There’re also powerful arguments that communities are better off from diversity. Just anecdotally (and please excuse the somewhat stereotypical examples) — America is better off with than without Jewish scientists, black athletes, and gay entertainers.)
But that’s beside the point. In America (unlike many other countries) it’s not about the community — it’s about individual liberty.
If I publish a “subversive” newspaper, or put on a play that’s “in bad taste,” I don’t have to prove that this improves the culture. I have a right to do it, whether it’s better for the community or not. That’s liberty.
Interracial couples didn’t have to prove that their marriages improved marriage. Neither should same-sex couples.
To this you say that the cases are not analogous because “there is no difference between a black man and a white man, but there is a difference between men and women.” That just won’t fly.
Of course there’s a difference between men and women, *and* blacks and whites. Not a difference in worth. But there is a difference that we can tell (can see, in these cases). If we truly thought there was no difference, there would never have been discrimination. The whole concept of discrimination would have been absurd. The idea of equality is not that people are actually identical; it’s that we decided that, in things that matter, they are equal. And the most basic equality is equality before the law.
Yes, blacks and gays don’t face identical challenges. But they are both minority groups that are disliked by some proportion of society. And discriminated against.
That’s why they fight for their individual rights.
 But they don’t have to prove that they improve marriage for all.
 


Matthew Gallagher
 May 14, 2011 at 10:28 AM


But justice is blind, and a blind system doesn’t take into account race or sexual preference. It’s legal for one man to marry one woman. Everybody IS treated the same. That’s equality.
It also sucks rocks. But if you’re arguing from an equal rights perspective, it’s solid. I’m sorry. Gay people do have the same access to the system, it just doesn’t do anything worthwhile for them, but how is that the government’s problem? I don’t get anything out of a lot of laws, but I have access to them. I have equal access to social security as my grandparents, I just don’t qualify for it.
This is the crux of the problem. I love individual liberty, but we’re not discussing liberty, because no one’s liberty is being attacked. Marriage is not a natural right.
And no, there really is no biological difference between blacks and whites. Laws that treated them differently were based on scientific falsehoods, and unjustified discrimination. That’s why they fell.
we don’t live in an anarchistic, or even libertarian system. We make decisions as a community. No, those decisions can’t infringe on a person’s natural rights. But in all else, we make decisions as a community.
The GBLT community is best served by dropping this empty argument that only makes everyone outrageously outraged, and instead approach each other as human beings, appealing to each other’s best values and humanity.
Dr. King did far more to heal race relations by announcing his fondest hopes and dreams then by shaming others with calls of bigotry. And he even had the right to do it.
 


Matthew Gallagher
 May 14, 2011 at 10:43 AM


And, Mike, you have to address the same questions. If you believe this is about government securing individual liberty vis a vis marriage, then can you conceive of a form of marriage you do not think is a right? And defend why the line is drawn there, and by what authority.
And if you’re not in favor of limitations, then at what point does does it conceivably hurt my marriage through the weakening of the institution?
People always dismiss this as a slippery slope argument, but slopes are actually slippery. There are many groups with lawyers chomping at the bit to protest the government to allow marriage to include them. They’re ready to go, and if you can’t defend the line, then there isn’t one anymore. And why, ethically, don’t communities have the right to keep that from happening?
 


Mike
 May 14, 2011 at 12:23 PM


Maybe you’re right, Matthew, that people respond not to dry arguments about rights and justice, but to emotional appeals based on “humanity.” In that case, nothing I have to say is going to do any good.
Anyway, Chris, I’d like to point out that Matthew and I, by arguing what we argued about, demonstrated that religion is not what’s important in this debate.
 


Chris Bargeron
 May 17, 2011 at 10:22 AM


@Mike: My eye is on the outcome, not the religiosity of those who support marriage equality. Yet, I remain hopeful that those of us who are religious and support justice for LGBT people can and will bring our whole selves to this debate and the work at hand.
Thanks for lending your voice to the conversation!
 
   

By Chris Bargeron

HaBaitah For The Holidays
Jay Michaelson to Speak on The Religious Case for Same-Sex Marriage
God Bless the Whole World – No Exceptions
‘Question One’ Listens Deeply to Both Sides of Marriage Divide
TC Blogger Finds “Pretty Good Reasons” to Oppose Marriage Amendment
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Queer Rites: God vs. Gay? The Religious Case for Equality
Posted on 27. Sep, 2011 by Thom Nickels in Features, Religion, Reviews
Like most people, I weathered the media panic surrounding the coming of Hurricane Irene. Although the rational part of me remained calm, the media frenzy seemed to want people to overreact.
 The loud chorus of doom had taken over every other item in the news.
“Hurricane of the century,” “Hurricane of Hurricanes,” people were saying. Like a contagious fever, the panic element grew until some members of the broadcast media advised people to stock up on bottled water because Philadelphia’s water supply would probably become contaminated.
 The ‘Eve of Destruction’ scenario came mostly from TV’s talking heads that for two or three days at least devoted entire newscasts to news of murderous Irene on “her” Bloody Path of Destruction. Feelings of panic, like lone notes in a piece of classical music that eventually swell into a Wagnerian overture, grew until people began to do unusual things like chop down large trees on their lawns before the storm had a chance to knock them over.
 The talking heads had done their job: many were convinced that Armageddon was at hand.
 In the wake of the impending disaster, I did what any book lover would do: I turned the TV off and reached for a book.
 In this case I selected, “God vs. Gay, the Religious Case for Equality,” by Jay Michaelson.
 Michaelson, the author of three books and the founder of Nehirim, a community programming resource for LGBT Jews and their friends, has written an explicitly honest book about his journey to self acceptance.
“For many years, I lived as an Orthodox Jew,” Michaelson writes, “strictly observing the minutiae of Jewish law. But I have also wandered far from my roots. I have spent many weeks on silent meditation retreats in Buddhist traditions—traditions in which I now teach as well.”
When reading this statement my mind raced back to what the Dalai Lama is on record as saying about homosexuality. Liberal, mostly secular American Buddhist adherents aside, this is what His Holiness is on record as saying: “A Western friend asked me what harm could there be between consenting adults having oral sex, if they enjoyed it.  But the purpose of sex is reproduction, according to Buddhism. The other holes don’t create life. I don’t mind – but I can’t condone this way of life.”
(Minus the reference to holes, this could also be a statement by another His Holiness, Benedict XVI of Rome).
 Michaelson is no slouch when it comes to knowing both the Old and New Testaments.  He writes that he’s studied the New Testament “as someone deeply involved with ecumenical and interfaith dialogue.”
In fact, there doesn’t seem to be much that he hasn’t studied, whether it’s Islamic, Hindu, or what he calls “nonaligned.” He considers himself fortunate to have journeyed so far and wide.The reason for his submergence into reading and scholarship was to ease his pain as a gay man.
“I contemplated suicide virtually every day of my life for almost ten years. And I tried everything. Abstinence, negative reinforcement, fantasizing about women. I was even in a loving relationship with a woman for over a year, trying all the while to be straight.”
In a sense, Micahelson’s story sounds like every other coming out epic, but the difference here is that the author wanted to know whether coming out was spiritually the right thing to do. It’s one thing to follow secular self-help psychology about being who you are, the ‘I’m OK, You’re OK’ school of life which tends to paint everything with a broad brush. Michaelson wanted to be

Beacon Press
certain he was ‘okay’ if only because he was tired of asking himself why God had made him that way. “How could I be so evil?” he asks, “I couldn’t make sense of it.”
But even after a lengthy period of questioning, researching and finding a life partner, the thorn is still in his side. He admits that, “I don’t want to be gay. I’ve had homophobia ingrained in me, and all things being equal, I’d rather be straight. I envy my straight friends, who can get married and have families that are not scrutinized and delegitimized.”
But are gays and lesbians getting married today being scrutinized and delegitimized? Perhaps they are in rural cities and states, but in New York City? Even if both of the answers to this question are yes, the societal trend is away from these impediments.
God vs. Gay got me thinking about the many forms of ingrained homophobia.
 Consider the closet case who mouths homophobic slurs, or closeted politicians who do not support gay rights. Internalized homophobia, however, can also effect the seemingly out and proud. These are gay people who for one reason or another are unnecessarily hard on one another. You used to see this on a wide scale within activist organizations or lgbt communities where various leaders with large egos would clash with other leaders or peers. It’s one thing to have a falling out or a disagreement that stays within the bounds of ‘agreeing to disagree,’ quite another when it evolves into a paralyzing decades-long immobilization.
 As a Philadelphia artist friend of mine commented recently when his mostly-gay art exhibit received good reviews from the city’s straight reviewers but was panned by the only gay reviewer: “I got a really snarky review from a fellow homo!”
 “What is it with homos hating other homos?” he asked.
 At a loss for words, I couldn’t help but question whether a smattering of internalized homophobia, posing as intelligent criticism, wasn’t at work here.
 Although God vs. Gay risks boring the reader with the all too predictable re-examination of biblical verses that seem to condemn same sex love, Micahelson has more interesting things to say about this than the average commentators of this litany.
 Of special note is his focus on Jesus’ attitude towards eunuchs, “who were also very queer in their societal context.”  Eunuchs from birth, or the spiritually castrated as referenced in Matthew 19, seem to jive with Clement of Alexandria’s contention that “some men, from their birth, have a natural sense of repulsion from a woman, and those who are naturally so committed do well not to marry.”
Michaelson asks: Is Matthew 19 referring to such men?
 Some of Michaelson’s other conclusions: That Leviticus 18:22 is a prohibition on male anal sex in the context of idolatry.
 That for the early Church fathers, including St. Paul, the problem was sexuality, not homosexuality.
 That the Old Testament’s prohibitions on male anal sex are linked to prohibitions on idolatry. “They are about ritual purity, not ethical law,” he says.
 That St. Augustine, who had love affairs with both men and women, later advocated “having natural sex with a prostitute rather than ‘unnatural’ sex with oneself or another man.”
That St. Thomas Aquinas believed that homosexual behavior “is no worse than masturbation—or, for that matter, lending money at interest, which was also called ‘unnatural.’”
Michaelson’s respectful treatment of traditions not his own, and his avoidance of journalistic attacks on easy contemporary targets like the Catholic Church, gives his voice added weight. He writes with a graceful conviction, without the tinge of prejudice or a harsh axe to grind.
“Accepting religious diversity is good for religious communities because it is precisely the flexibility of religious values that enables them to survive and adapt,” he writes. “The history of religion is marked by exactly this sort of progress—right from the beginning….The law, which God had set down only a few chapters earlier, changes when suppressed voices are heard and a cogent claim for justice is staked. This is how religion is meant to operate.”
Queer Rites: God vs. Gay? The Religious Case for Equality
 by Jay Michaelson
Beacon Press
Paperback, 9780807001592, 205pp.
October 2011

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About Thom Nickels
Thom Nickels is a Philadelphia-based author/journalist, the author of nine published books, including: The Cliffs of Aries (1988), The Boy on the Bicycle (1991-1994), Manayunk (1997), Gay and Lesbian Philadelphia (2000), Tropic of Libra (2002), Out in History and Philadelphia Architecture (2005). In 1990, Mr. Nickels was nominated for a Lambda Literary Award and a Hugo Award for his book, Two Novellas. He was awarded the Philadelphia AIA Lewis Mumford Architecture Journalism Award in 2005 for his book Philadelphia Architecture and his weekly architectural columns in Philadelphia Metro. He has written feature stories, celebrity interviews, and social commentary columns for The Philadelphia Inquirer, The Philadelphia Daily News, the Philadelphia Bulletin, City Paper, The Philadelphia Weekly, The Philadelphia Gay News and The New Oxford Review. His travel essays have appeared in Passport Magazine.  His column, Different Strokes in the Philadelphia Welcomat in the early 1980s, was one of the first out lgbt columns in a mainstream newspaper. He’s currently the architectural writer/critic columnist and feature writer for ICON Magazine (New Hope, PA), a contributing editor at Philadelphia’s Weekly Press, and a weekly columnist for Philadelphia’s STAR publications. Mr. Nickels also writes for the Broad Street Review and The Gay and Lesbian Review. His novel SPORE was published in July 2010. His novella Walking Water & After All This (1989)-- is currently available on Amazon and will be a paperback later this year He is listed in Who’s Who in America, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009.  You  can visit Nickel's webcast here.

Tags: God vs. Gay? The Religious Case for Equality, Jay Michaelson, Queer Rites, Spirituality, Thom Nickels

4 Responses to “Queer Rites: God vs. Gay? The Religious Case for Equality”


Steve Berman 27 September 2011 at 1:33 PM #

Thom, please consider–especially considering that the author of the book is Jewish–to not use the term “Old Testament” but rather “Hebrew Bible.” Many Jews find the usage of “OT” to be offensive.
Reply


Amos Lassen 28 September 2011 at 6:42 PM #

I agree with Steve–you can also use the Five Books of Moses or the Pentateuch. I found Jay’s book to be not only well written but extremely important and not just for Jews.. I received an advance reader copy a few months ago and went through it word by word and page by page. I consider myself to be well educated in Judaism and in gay literature and I found that there is still so much more to think about.. It is a welcome addition to our canon ans will undoubtedly be on my year;’s best list/
Reply



Trackbacks/Pingbacks
1.God vs. Gay? Book Launch | LGBT Human Rights. Gay News, Entertainment, Travel - October 25, 2011
[...] of a handful of Biblical verses about sexuality for the modern reader. In doing so, the author tackles seven controversial passages, dissecting the Hebrew in order to get at the root meaning of those passages, which have long been [...]
2.God vs. Gay? The Religious Case for Equality | jaymichaelson.net - January 17, 2012
[...] Lambda Literary (Thom Nickels)  Michaelson “writes with a graceful conviction, without the tinge of prejudice or a harsh axe to grind.” [...]

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 Religion
The Bible Is Actually Pro Gay!

By Michael Musto Tue., Sep. 27 2011 at 11:10 AM
13 Comments
Categories:  Religion






 
 






MICHAELSON_GodVsGay-compressed.jpg
 That's the contention of gay-rights activist and religion scholar Jay Michaelson, whose new book, God vs. Gay? The Religious Case for Equality, makes some startling arguments that will have the Bible-thumpers turning into pillars of opened tea bags.
Says the book:
"The Hebrew bible and the New Testament both emphasize the importance of love, compassion, and equality.

"The moral principles in these texts favor acceptance of gays and lesbians, outweighing the handful of ambiguous verses so often cited by conservatives."
I always thought the Bible could be interpreted as a tool of good, not randomly translated to favor hate and oppression.
Thank you, God.
Looks like I'm about to go down on my knees again.



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Calani
Calani
Feb 16, 2013


Found interesting article about this its real technical too http://www.themessiahspurpose.com/is-god-gay-what-does-the-bible-say-about-homosexuality/
Personally I think that if the bible doesn't accept gays and they don't want to change their ways, because that's what the bible says to do...then they should just leave bible alone. Just my opinion

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Telson7
Telson7
Feb 17, 2012


Nowadays, it is going on conversations about homosexuality; some are against it and some on behalf of it. The right answer we can find from the word of God (the Bible).
The Lord Jesus is the Messiah, Redeemer from sins and the Saviour. Jesus' must fulfilled the whole law of God and believed all what the Old Testament taught, that He could be the Saviour. He did fulfill and believe all the law. In the Old Testament were commandments, which teach that homosexuality is a sin. Because the Lord Jesus had to believe all commandments of the Old Testament, so He also believed that homosexuality is a sin. The Bible teaches that homosexuality was a sin in the order of the Old Covenant and is valid in the order of the New Covenant. Like this way Jesus also believed that homosexuality is a sin, and He also condemned homosexuality by this way.
For the sake of sodomites' abomination acts, God destroyed Sodom as Ezekiel 16:49,50 shows for us. Ezekiel uses 16:50 Hebrew word towebah, which is the same Hebrew word in Lev 18:22 (and Lev 20:13) that describes homosexuality as abomination. It is very clear that in Ezekiel 16:50, abomination means homosexuality acts as the reason for destroying of Sodom. Sodomites pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness and hardened hearts towards poor and needy were sins, but destruction came for the sake of homosexuality, and the New Testament confirms this:
Jude1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Apostle Paul wrote very clearly that homosexuality (men having sex with other men; women having sex with other women) is a sin. Ro 1:27 is word error, which is in Greek plane, which means error, to deceive, deceit, one led astray from the right way, error which shows itself in action, a wrong mode of acting. In this place, the Bible in the New Testament shows very clearly that same-gender sex is a sin and aberration from the right way. Apostle Paul taught very clearly that homosexuality is unnatural sin.
Many scientists believe that homosexuality is congenital, a matter and orientation that can't be changed as heterosexual. Paradoxical is that many scientists don't believe in God of the Bible, and they proclaim that God of the Bible is not existed. Nevertheless, God of the Bible is capable of change homosexuals individuals to be as heterosexuals.
Arsenos means male and koiten means bed. Lev 18:22 and 20:13 teach that a man cannot lie (sexual act) with another man as he lies with a woman. The origin of the word arsenokoites means homosexual activity and homosexual. Lev 18:22 and 20:13 prove very clearly that arsenos koitenmeans homosexuality sex, because the Jews scribes translated words' arsenos koiten to describe men who have sex with another men (homosexuality), which is a sin and against the will of God. Apostle Paul didn't make up the word arsenokoites, but it was already as the concept in the Old Testament, where it meant homosexuality. It is very clear that the words' arsenos koiten meant homosexuality (man who had sex with another man) to Jews of the Old Covenant era. In the same way arsenokoites meant homosexuality (man who had sex with another man) to Jesus' disciples in the New Covenant era.
Jewish philosopher Philo lived in the same time as Jesus Christ and Philo has said that arsenokoites meant shrine prostitute (male temple prostitute), and not homosexual. Some people have made from this a conclusion that the word arsenokoites meant a male temple prostitute. Philo's interpretation was totally wrong, because the Bible proves this undisputedly and shows that Philo erred.
Lev 18:22 and Lev 20:13 doesn't use temple prostitute word, but words in which is denied that a man can't lie sexually with another man. Always when the Bible speaks for temple prostitutes, so the Bible uses words gedeshah and gadesh. If Lev 18:22 and Lev 20:13 told for temple prostitutes, so verses would mention them, but there isn't, because in those verses, the Bible forbids homosexuality. It is very clear and undisputable in the light of the testimony of the Bible, that arsenokoites means homosexuality.
According to words of the Lord Jesus, Jesus' disciples can judge righteous judgement. If somebody is stealing, living in adultery or is lying, so we have the right to say sin as a sin. According to the Bible, homosexuality is a sin and so Jesus' disciples have the right to say what the Bible teaches. Jesus' disciple has a right to say that living in sins lead people to eternal damnation. Jesus' disciple doesn't judge to damnation, but tells that God shall judge sin maker to hell.
God loves also gay-people, but not sinful act of homosexuality, and therefore, God calls gay-people repentance and receives salvation by believing in the Lord Jesus. In other words, God loves sinners, but not sins. The gospel and its changing power is meant also for gay-people, because the Lord Jesus can set you free you from your sins.
I don't condemn homosexuals, but love them by the love of God. The love of God also holds on from the truth, and therefore, I must say that homosexuality is a sin, it is not condemning, but telling the truth. God has authority to judge, not a man. God judges in His word homosexuality as a sin. I can tell about judgements that what God does, and I don't condemn, but tell who judge.
I don't support discrimination of homosexuals, because they are valuable as my neighbors. However, homosexuality is a sin. It is possible to integrate from homosexuality and get rid of it. The Lord Jesus can save and give freedom to you. I recommend for you to read the Bible, because there God teaches for natural sexuality and salvation by believing in the Lord Jesus.
Reference: http://koti.phnet.fi/petripaav...

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carbonaro
carbonaro
Sep 29, 2011

The most boring book, The Bible!
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hgb
hgb
Sep 29, 2011

It is not Gods´ love and His acceptance what is in question here, but mens attitude towards His Word. There has to be repentance of sins and a surrender to Jesus, follow by the obedience to the Word of God. Like it or not, it is not our opinion that matters here, but what God says about it. The Bible is very clear about any kind of sin. Is true that He loves gay as He loves people who lie, steal, or kill, however it does not mean that just because He loves us all, we will continue to do wrong, like the things mentioned here. We need to repent and accept Christ to receive forgiveness of sin, then, start living by His Word, and that's the way it is...
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Kpilott
Kpilott
Sep 28, 2011


1 Corinthians 6:9-10"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?  Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulters, nor effminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God."
God does forgive, but first you must believe in Jesus Christ and repent from all sin.  All includes homosexuality.

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Southern Dave
Southern Dave
Sep 28, 2011


As Gomer Pyle would say, "Surprise, surprise."
In this space a few weeks ago, I listed all the Biblical quotes that I remembered off the top of my head. They all concerned love and acceptance.
Gypsy Rose Lee said, "God is Love, but get it in writing."
And there it is, in the biggest Best Seller of All Time.

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Rideswithchrist
Rideswithchrist
Sep 27, 2011


2 Tim 3 2For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, 4treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these. 6For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, 7always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

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Leeshavon
Leeshavon
Sep 28, 2011

Mercy! 5 & 7 are deep bro!
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gato liso
gato liso
Sep 27, 2011

The bible is a great work of fiction. Amen..
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Homobo
Homobo
Sep 27, 2011

All this means is that the bible can be used to make any argument that suits you, which means it is simultaneously meaningless and dangerous.
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Rogie
Rogie
Sep 27, 2011

The real issue here is: 3,000 years later, for people living mostly everywhere except in a desert, and with very few among us recently enslaved and threatened with extinction (and therefore subject to strict rules regarding reproductive sex). All these great differences and separations, along with historical proof that following scripture blindly leads to nothing but misery and tragedy, with science having proved once and for all that it's plain false, and we're still taking this piece of shit seriously?
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Pepperpot
Pepperpot
Sep 27, 2011

Well, Christians always say you should love the sinner, just don't love the sin itself. Which is crazy. I read the bible to mean love and equality for all, just like the book you wrote about says. Maybe THIS is the real good book.
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Roisters
Roisters
Sep 27, 2011

"pillars of opened tea bags" lol.
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Inspiring LGBT Religious Leaders

 By Paul Brandeis Raushenbush  Posted: 10/20/2011 1:45 pm EDT  |  Updated: 09/04/2013 12:21 pm EDT





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Reflecting and shaping the culture in which it is embedded, religion has historically been hostile to LGBT-identified people and communities. However, over the last three decades more denominations, congregations and individuals have come out in support of honoring the full humanity of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered people. Today, hundreds, if not thousands, of religious communities are truly places of celebration, healing and hope for all people.
This initial list of 15 ground breaking individuals is just a sampling of the many LGBT religious leaders who have reclaimed religious traditions and communities. We hope that you will use the feature on this slideshow to add gay religious leaders who you feel should be included. Meanwhile, we thankfully acknowledge the ongoing contributions of these inspiring religious leaders.

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Sohailhs
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08:51 PM on 11/10/2011
homosexuality is indeed immoral behavior and is a major sin in Islam. The practice of homosexuality began with the people of Lut (Alyhis Salaam). Allah Ta’ala says in the Holy Quran:
ولوطا إذ قال لقومه أتأتون الفاحشة ما سبقكم بها من أحد من العالمين
“And (remember) Lut, when he said to his people: Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceded you has committed in the worlds?” (7:80)
 In this verse, the word “Fahishah”, which means an atrocious, obscene, lewd, shameless act, is referring to the practice of homosexuality. After the people of Sodom ignored the warnings of Lut (Alayhis Salaam) to stop this act and to follow the true path, Allah Ta’ala wiped them out with a severe punishment by turning their towns upside down and burying them with stones of baked clay. This was a telling punishment by Allah Ta’ala for going against the natural order created by Him.
 Allah Ta’ala has also stated in several places of the Quran that He has created men and women so that they may be mates for each other (in marriage). The inception of marriage for mankind on Earth was to maintain the human race through procreation. Therefore, it is absolutely clear that homosexuality is strictly prohibited.


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rey del nada
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07:31 AM on 11/02/2011
I believe many Muslim scholars would indicate that Irshad Manji is in fact not Muslim.


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05:36 PM on 10/31/2011
Congratulations to Archbishop Michael Seneco for his pastoral leadership.


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07:22 PM on 10/28/2011
Homosexuality is an evolutionary dead end. It is contrary to the survival of the species. Just facts.


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GDWhiteman
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12:54 PM on 10/29/2011
Our species is in no apparent danger of going extinct as a result of too few of us.


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01:57 AM on 10/30/2011
Funny thing about that is that you really have to be a breeder who doesn't understand we're a social species to say that.
 If this was about breeding, we wouldn't be talking here, cause we wouldn't. We'd be breeding.


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footearowl
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05:47 AM on 10/28/2011
You people who have lost yourselves to the mental and emotional illness that is lgbt Lost-Goofy-Boneheads n Twits need to resign yourselves to The Written Word and not try and bend it to fit whatever platform which you "choose" to speak from!! The bottom line here, ooops uhhm sorry boys NOT that one, is to learn The Truth and then refrain from doing any more of what ails you currently and Pray that your footsteps and heart will lead you to "A New Understanding" so that the old way of life is left behind making it possible for "A New Creature" to appear, one who is
 ready and obedient To Both Keep and Do The Will and Word Of God Almighty!! Heyy, don't get mad at me, just get it together and change your acts so that you DO NOT INFLUENCE THE AS YET UNEXPOSED AND THE YOUNG WHO HAVE NOT EVEN HAD A CHANCE TO LEARN, KNOW AND UNDERSTAND THE SCOURGE AND VILE ILLNESS THAT WOULD TAKE THEM ALL SO WILLINGLY!!!!


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Planet Pluto
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08:07 AM on 10/28/2011
You may or may not be a little nutty.... BUT....
 You do have a point there when you say, "Do not influence the as yet unexposed." Truth be told, that is precisely the m.o. of some in the LGBT community (as well as others obsessed with sexualizing our entire culture).
 Take NY, for example, where sarting next year there will be mandated sex ed starting in middle school which will teach people in as early as 7th grade not about the mechanics of sex or the biology, but about anal sex, homosexuality, anal sex, and, my personal favorite, "oral sex with braces." The students will be given 'risk cards' detailing different sexual acts with a detailed rating on them for each (as if any sexual act is really 'safe' for a 7th grader).
 While I'm a bit skeptical of your post (seems a little over the top for me), I will say that you hit the nail on the head with that one statement. For the most part, unless specifically brought to their attention, a 7th grader would likely not even consider many of the things that are slated to be taught to them next year. (Feel free to do a Google News search)
 The funny thing is, "they" continuously force sex into society's youth, then turn around and say, "Well, kids are doing it anyway, so we might as well address it." It's like a glass shop owner smashing neighborhood windows on the weekend.


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detroitblkmale30
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10:20 AM on 10/28/2011
F&F


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priceofliberty
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09:25 AM on 10/28/2011
lol. Umm. I think you should re-read the written word. Its not these people that are bending it. Its the tradition that has been around for 700 years that bent it. Yes 700 not 2000.


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10:21 AM on 10/28/2011
Sorry that doesnt fly. The twisting is being done by these leaders the written Biblical word doesnt equivocate.


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priceofliberty
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11:14 AM on 10/31/2011
lol. twisting? again re-read it. And I will ask you these questions:
 1) If the church agreed on this why did it take until the 2nd Council of Lyons to "settle" the matter?
 2) If the church agreed on it after the 2nd Council of Lyons why did Dante(about 70 years later) put a man that was a homosexual only guilty of being a homosexual in purgatory, but put the man that did exactly what Ezekiel said Sodom did in inferno?
 3) If this has been a tradition since Paul then why did Paul use arskenokotai instead of a word that was widely accepted as homosexual at the time like pederaste? Plain meaning remember -- arskenokotai is not plain.
 4) If Paul meant all homosexuality then why in Romans talk about what seems to be Idolatry to the Roman Gods? which involved homosexuality. These leaders do not worship Jupiter.
 Its not these 15 that are twisting. The idea of all homosexuality being wrong is new in the majority of the church. By new by church standards about 766 years.
 Now if you can prove the above wrong I'll retract. I doubt it though.
 Please don't accuse people of not following the word of God when they are following the word of God, just not your interpretation. Remember if we list every sin Paul condemned in 1 Co 6:9-10, and 1 Tim 1:10 most of America would be condemned to hell including most clergy.


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09:46 PM on 10/31/2011
LOL Yes twisting.
 1) It matters not what the church agreed on what matters is what the scripture truly says. The church once officially said the sun revolved around the earth. For nearly the past century however the position has been nearly universally opposed to same sex acts including today. Even with all of the benefits of texts and study etc etc.. Why is that? hmmm. Slavery has only been considered "wrong" by that "new church" your refer to for 200+ years. Like I said the amount of time doesnt make wrong.
 2) Dante? He was a poet, a philosopher, a literary theorist, a politcal thinker. He wasnt a church authority. You might as well take Maya Angelou's "take" on theological issues as the gospel truth if you are going to do that.
 3) Wrong pederaste more typically referred to adult male-to young boy relationships in a coercsive manner which was widely common with the Greeks and Romans. That has been included in some of the prohibitions. So its not as if Paul ignored the only obvious word that related to homosexual. Plain-all the other scriptures PLUS Paul's which CAN refer to same sex acts among consenting adults male and female., yes that is plain. its not as if Paul used a completely irrelevant and unrelated word that couldn't possibly mean homosexual. That's not the case.


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priceofliberty
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07:03 AM on 11/01/2011
1) it matters. One of the claims is that the 2 views on homosexuality is new and anything new is not orthodox. That isn't true. It is much older than the all or nothing thinking that has prevailed the Church in the last 200 years.
 2) Dante is a poet that the Church elevated his comedy to almost scriptural status for a time. Its not the same as using Maya Angelou. He is relevant not because he is an authority but because how the Church used the divine comedy. Its not like the Church ever said this is good except for this little piece in purgatorio. Generally speaking at the time 1321 most literary works the Church disagreed with were destroyed. That begs the question why wasn't it?
 3) Please don't use anachronisms. pederaste meaning only pederast is modern greek not ancient. My assertion is that arsenokatoi does not mean all homosexuals. You haven't proven that it does mean that. I personally feel the closest English translation is "a man that hires a rent-boy" using "rent-boy" from British slang. Again the 15 here don't do this. note: arsenokatoi cannot apply to women, its pretty specific to men only.
 Look you haven't really addressed the issues. Only attacked the sources of the questions. You have not


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08:05 AM on 11/01/2011
1) The view on homosexuality is new relatively speaking even if you only account for 700 years of it. However old or new isnt the REAL issue. The issue is what is CORRECT. This view of well it existed in some form or another back to old times still fails to make it correct.
 2) He STILL wasnt an authority on the text. Again, using the "church" (which of course is a relative term as you move forward in history) as a definitive term still is not a defining factor for what is true and what isnt. The church thought many things that were incorrect thus there use of Dante is hardly definitive. He cannot be viewed as a source for Biblical truth, he wasnt a theologian. He was used as a marketing tool to draw attention to the church's views(correct or not)
 3) I'm using what are commonly accepted meanings of the words. Paul refers both to men and women in this passage here, even if not in the this specific verse. The point is Pederaste refers to the adult male boy, not arsenokoitai, which means in its most rudimentary translation is male bed, in the context of the scripture where men "bed" with other men.


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08:08 AM on 11/01/2011
'cont
 You assert that it doesnt mean "all" homosexual. You don't demonstrate that it doesnt. The Bible consistently states that same sex acts are not permissible. Where does it state that some same sex acts are permissible while others are not? It doesnt. Since you and these 15 are stating that they are the onus is on you to demonstrate that the Bible states that these acts are permissible. When you can do that, I'll change my tune. I know you cant however because its not there.
 That's the point, I have addressed the questions you raised for it is in the premises for the questions that the faults within the issues arise.
 A.How the church viewed an issue an for how long cannot be taken as definitive truth for your position.
 B. Dante cannot be taken as a definitive source an authority on the matter, as he wasnt one. In response your point about how the church used him see point A
 C. The term refers to males in bed with other males as differentiated from adult male/young male(coercisve) and male prostitition. That's as inclusive of all types as you can get.


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09:51 PM on 10/31/2011
'cont.
 4) Paul talks about the penalty for idolatry. It was same sex acts. Now if the punishment is a certain action; logically can that punishment be considered exemplary or permissible? Of course not.
 .Here is where you can retract..
 I accuse them of twisting because that is exactly what they are doing. Its not an interpretation. Its supported in scripture. They are doing exactly what 2 Tim. 4:3 said would happen.
 No, merely allowing one sin because people conduct others is the theologically equivalent of two wrongs making a right. The issue here is not whether everyone is sinless, but rather are people taking a sin misleading others to believe it isnt. They are. You cant say they all would be condemned to hell, you dont know them all personally, besides there is something called forgiveness


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priceofliberty
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06:51 AM on 11/01/2011
1 Co 6:9 paul does mention idolatry you got me there. It doesn't disprove my statement. Remember my statement is not that all homosexuality is permissible, but what these 15 are doing is.
 2 Tim 4:3 "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." This is what I think happened 766 years ago. we are correcting it now. Remember this can be interpreted in more than one way.


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08:12 AM on 11/01/2011
I do believe that all same sex acts are sinful not matter the context. I see the Bible states that. What types are permissible that you refer to and where do you see the Bible making that claim?
 As there are not scriptures in the BIble which directly and explicitly support same sex acts then even though 2 Tim.4:3 can be read in your position, one logically has to conclude it does not. That it supports what I have said. The Bible from OT to NT(more than your 766 years) supports the prohibition against such acts and these 15 leaders an others who say it doesnt are doing exactly what this passage states:
 "to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."


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LintLass
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02:03 AM on 10/30/2011
I'm still mystified about how people can both deny they're primates and simultaneously generate that poop directly into their hands ....and throw it like it proves something. :)


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JohnT1919
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06:53 PM on 10/27/2011
Reverend Mel White, founder of Soulforce should also be included. Congrats to all.


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starjack
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10:55 AM on 10/27/2011
What? No Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence?


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Planet Pluto
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11:23 AM on 10/26/2011
Reclaim?


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Stokes
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07:47 AM on 10/26/2011
I believe that the unbiased love of the Almighty is for all of mankind who are seeking relief through a Higher Power. I believe that God is raising up a people who have put on the armor of the Holy Spirit to restore the true teachings of Christ as each is inspired by the wisdom of God's messenger. I also think it wise to listen to and understand the reasoning of some atheists. Judgementalism is as rampant among as many who claim to be Christians as is among some radicals in the Muslim faith. Christians have been programmed to look down on some just as southerners have been programmed to look down on people with dark skin. God is a Spirit of love and truth. God's spiritual love does not require physical contact.


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Trekkiefandom
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12:49 PM on 10/26/2011
well said.


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Gillsans
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11:57 PM on 10/23/2011
I tried adding a slide, but it didn't go through - and he may not be eligible for this list since he died earlier this year, but I don't see how it can be complete without a mention of Rev. Peter Gomes. A brilliant preacher and writer, he came out in 1991. His "The Good Book: Reading the Bible with Mind and Heart," written a couple of years later, opened many minds (including mine).


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02:04 PM on 10/24/2011
Gomes was an amazing man.


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revsusanrussell
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06:57 PM on 10/23/2011
What a great cloud of witnesses -- many of whom I am honored to call friends and brothers and sisters in the struggle. They show us that it is long past time time to take to heart the words of Rabbi Abraham Heschel, who famously said, “Few are guilty, but all are responsible.” We -- progressive people of faith -- may not be guilty of the religion based bigotry that has wounded countless members of God’s beloved LGBT children but we responsible for offering a counter-narrative to the lies that have been told about the God we serve – the God of love, justice and compassion.
 Also on my list: Rabbi Denise Eger; Rabbi Temple Kol Ami, founding member of HRC Religion Council and past-president So Cal Board of Rabbis and the Very Reverend Michael Hopkins; past-president of Integrity USA and an architect of the Episcopal Church's movement forward on LGBT ordinations and the blessing of same-sex union.
 The Reverend Canon Susan Russell
 Episcopal Diocese of Los Angeles/All Saints Church, Pasadena


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Carolyn Kennedy
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12:48 AM on 10/23/2011
Missed a few--- Carter Hayward, lesbian, Episcopal priest and writer; Amy deLong, Methodist pastor recently stood trial for officiating at the marriage of two women; Rev. Dr. William Johnson, first openly gay man to be ordained by a mainline Protestant church (United Church of Christ)


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HGfromOmaha
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10:56 PM on 10/22/2011
Oh! This is going to be good! I haven't even read the comments yet but I'm going to grab a drink and start reading the "Christians" attacking one another! I can almost visualize all the pasting of Bible verses that's about to take place. Can't wait to count how many times the term "true Christian" is used!
 This is going to be great!


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Lucy0808
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10:40 PM on 10/22/2011
Most of the items that were called sins in the bible are not considered sins today. It keeps changing and even the most conservative reactionary Christian doesn't call all of the sins of the bible sins for today. Mylord, the bible supported slavery in a jolly way and sujugation of women and other people especially the gentiles. In Leviticus, the jews were allowed to wipe out villages with women and children included. Everyone. No religious sect in modern times advocates such stuff although it was in the not so long ago past.
 Most of the posts by Christians on this thread have been anything but Christian with the love and forgiveness described by Jesus. Like Gandhi said, "I like your Jesus, but the Christians, not so much". I feel the same after reading the posts here and having dialogues with some pretty bigoted dark people. I'm sure there are very good people. I know there are, but in this thread most have been dreaming some very dark dreams with a very mean avatar.
 My daughter is gay and I raised her through her tough life. She is a very intelligent, thoughtful human being. Her depth and open heart and mind is a wonder for me to see. She is now in a loving relationship. She is teaching me about love. Love. Love and laughter. Love and compassion. Understanding. There is no way that her behavior is sin. It is love.


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11:23 PM on 10/22/2011
You know they're going to lash out at you and say some evil things Lucy......and it's supposed to come from a place of "love".......the same mentality as what they used in boot camp....."The beatings will continue until morale improves"......
 Good for you and your daughter. You're supposed to be there for her. That's your child. She is who she is. I believe in God and God doesn't make mistakes. He makes people as they are.
 So many people are hung up on the Bible, not knowing where it came from, when it was written, by whom it was written, how the books were selected, and which books were left out. Let's talk about the Gospel of Thomas and how Jesus viewed true salvation. Of course this means nothing to the "scholars" you'll see writing on these pages because they refuse to acknowledge anything they can't understand or regurgitate from memory.
 Oh well. I love reading the attacks. These people truly believe their own hype. Arrogant. Prideful. Boastful. Condescending.
 Disgusting.


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Lucy0808
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11:47 AM on 10/23/2011
Thank you for posting a gracious and supportive post. A needed "pause or reprieve" on this thread to say the least. It doesn't fix this problem of over the top self-righteousness, but acknowledges the silliness.
 Peace be with you.


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Pale Writer
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08:03 PM on 11/08/2011
I am a Christian and if anyone were to attack Lucy on this issue or any other, I would be the first one to draw my sword (metaphorically speaking) and defend her. She is not a Christian. I believe she is Buddhist. So none of this applies to her or her daughter. Everyone deserves to live in peace. Even on a message board. Just because folks engage in discussion, it does not always equate to "attack". Everyone gets a chance to make their stance, get challenged, and defend it. It's called civil discourse. Those who decide to chide and belittle, do not get the opportunity for intelligent dialogue. Most people will not engage them. Sure folks can be arrogant, prideful, boastful and condescending. I have seen my share from Atheists attacking me...but it makes no difference to me. I shake off the dust from my shoes and move on. Disgusting walks on both sides of the street...


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Gerald Brogdon
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09:38 AM on 11/09/2011
Ref: " ...sins today." Sins are defined as missing the mark of God's will. In Leviticus and Joshua, the Hebrews were told by God to "genocide" neighboring tribes in the Promised Land. How does that coincide with the "Do not kill" commandment? First, understand that God's mission and fulfillment of the promise to Abraham meant that God was going to use the Hebrews to provide His salvation solution. Second, recognize that commandments are not equal. There are priorities (see Matthew 22:36-40). Third, recognize that the neighboring tribes were very influential upon the Hebrews when they remained to influence them in the worship of other "supposed" gods. In most ethical societies today, the loss of many is never outweighed by the loss of few. God, in His omniscience, gave the command to "genocide" neighboring tribes in order to save billions in the future through His salvation solution. All the commands in the Torah were designed to keep the Hebrews unique and separated. Notice that the Hebrews are the only people I'm aware of that have genealogies as deep in this span of time and why both Matthew and Luke traced Jesus' genealogy, at least, back to Abraham. The reason Christians focus on the top two priority commandments over Torah law is twofold: 1) Jesus' priority (see above) and 2) God has provided His salvation solution. However, please note that Jesus said that the law will never go away; it is just tertiary in priority to the two commandments.


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Jake Thomas
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10:05 PM on 10/22/2011
Leviticus 20:9
 If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.
 20:10 If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
 20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.
 Deuteronomy 22:20-1 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house.
 My guess is that if you believe an follow a literal interpretation of the bible something is going "hit the fan" in short order.


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detroitblkmale30
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09:23 AM on 10/25/2011
A literal interpretation of the Bible also includes one where the Bible is read in its proper theological context. When you include the New Covenant.the punishment for what you have written are inapplicable thanks to Jesus.
 I wish that people really studied Christianity before they copied and pasted "gotcha" scriptures to promote a false sense of conundrum as well as a completely unrelated support for other actions.


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StevenM
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05:41 AM on 10/26/2011
What you have offered is nothing more than spin without addressing the real problems raised. You claim that "t­he punishment for what you have written are inapplicab­le thanks to Jesus," but you didn't address the real problem, when were they ever moral? If the Bible is a moral book, when was it ever moral to put a child to death for cursing his or her parents? When was it ever moral to put people to death for adultery? When was it ever moral to put two gay men to death for being gay? When was it ever moral to put a young girl to death because she didn't remain a virgin before getting married? These are not simply "gotcha" questions, but address a deeper issue, the Bible's commandments are often immoral themselves. Frankly, many more examples could be given illustrating this point. These commandments are not only "inapplicab­le thanks to Jesus," but immoral in themselves. Furthermore, your notion that they are now "inapplicab­le thanks to Jesus" is just your personal spin. And if many of the commandments in Hebrew scripture are immoral, who is to say that some of the commandments in the New Testament are not immoral also?


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08:22 AM on 10/26/2011
LOL. It's hardly spin. Its widely accepted.You make it sound as if I just made it up. Sorry but the perspective I described has been around for hundreds of years. Its more than my "personal opinion" or some new Huffpo take on the BIble. Its called the New Covenant. Ever heard of it? The punishments are no longer valid thanks to his New Covenant. If you study his life you see that he literally refused stoning in his lifetime and death when the law called for it. That isnt spin my friend. It was moral in the eyes of God. I'm not concerned with what seems right to you now. The answer to all your questions, during the time of the OT.
 No they ARE gotcha questions because the people asking them are NOT asking them to test their morality at any time. The people asking them are asking them in "gotcha" attempt to try and invalidate what the BIble says about certain acts being sins. They then incorrectly suggest that if "you believe that(same sex acts are sins)t, then you must do this(stone your children when they disagree with you.) That is a false conundrum and a gotcha game that shows a lack of understanding of BIblical theological principles and context.


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detroitblkmale30
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08:23 AM on 10/26/2011
cont'
 Your point is irrelevant. This isnt some general secular moral courtroom or a college ethics class. Biblical scripture takes precedence for the majority of Christians, not popular opinion or moral realtivism which you clearly subsribe to. I dont claim that any of them are immoral so your NT question doesnt apply. You illustrate perfectly my point about those who do not understand theological contexts but simply seek to define what "seems right in their own eyes" by "leaning unto their own understanding" the Bible through separate verses warns against this.


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10:11 AM on 10/26/2011
Re: "Its called the New Covenant. Ever heard of it?"
 Sure, but conservative Christians don't always agree with what it means. Many of them claim that only some of the commandments are still binding on Christians today. This allows them to condemn people for violating a commandment while ignoring other commandments in the same book, chapter, or even in the same verse.
 Re: "The punishment­s are no longer valid ..."
 You are arguing that parts of scripture are no longer valid. You are simply teaching Biblical relativism, where you can pick some commandments in the Bible to use to condemn others, while ignoring others. You call it a New Covenant. Ever heard of it?
 Many conservatives will cite Leviticus 20:13 as proof that homosexuality is wrong. If one asks if they want to stone gays, they back down and say no. It is Biblical relativism of the same verse, they use half of it to claim that homosexuality is wrong, but like you they claim that the other half of this verse is no longer valid -- that scripture itself is no longer valid.
 You can try to spin this anyway you like. And it doesn't matter if this spin is something you thought up yourself, or something you learned from others. It is still spin. You want to claim that Biblical scripture takes precedence, while ignoring many of the actual commandments within scripture. Your position is simply Biblical relativism.


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10:37 AM on 10/26/2011
Right lev. 20:13 is such proof. However right there you are mixing apples and oranges. The law is one thing, the punishment is a separate. Think of it like our court system. You are judged to see if you even broke the law in the first place. THEN you are sentenced to your punishment in a separate phase. The law hasnt changed in most instances, Jesus(as the judge God etc.) has altered the sentencing through the New Covenant. That's not relativism. That is understanding the shift in how God now deals with us. It would be relativism if some people were stoned and some people received grace. All receive grace. Thus the scripture is still valid.
 I have solid scriptural context. You are attempting to alter something like I said that is widely accepted and longstanding. Its funny you call it spin because you disagree with it. Biblical scripture does take precedence with Biblical CONTEXT. That means that you weigh each scripture against the wider context of the what came after it. THat is something that folks on the left consistently seem to miss, intentionally or not. You measure the law and punishment against what came after. Jesus clearly denies stoning. He clearly talks about becoming the sacrifice for ours sins. Now you can choose to spin that however you like, but its clear to those who take the BIble in context that its reading passages in the proper context of superceding scriptures.


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10:50 AM on 10/26/2011
I must echo my friends statements, he is on sound Biblical footing.
 A simpler way to look at it is that the laws of the OT all had a purpose. Some pointed to Jesus (ceremonial laws), some were civil laws (dietary, etc) to separate them from the surrounding cultures, and the rest were moral (immorality, murder, etc.) to show them what was right and wrong.
 Ceremonial laws were fulfilled by Jesus (that's why Christians aren't sacrificing animals every day).
 Civil laws don't apply, since the Church is not Israel and Israel is not the Church. That's why bacon wrapped shrimp can be enjoyed guilt free (other than the health impact).
 Moral laws both preceded and suucceed the law as codified in Leviticus and elsewhere. That is why murder was wrong before the law, that is why murder is wrong after the law. The same applies to sexual immorality and other moral directives.
 Christians are explicitly NOT under the JUDGEMENT of the moral law, but the moral law remains to expose our sin nature, and to show us what sin is. It's not relativism, it's not spin, it's Biblical.


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12:11 PM on 10/26/2011
eric0063 writes: “Ceremonial laws were fulfilled by Jesus (that's why Christians aren't sacrificing animals every day).”
That is spin, and dishonest spin at that. The Jewish temple didn’t shut down and stop sacrificing animals when Jesus was crucified. In fact, they continued to sacrifice animals for some thirty to forty years after Jesus was crucified. The real reason they stopped is because the Romans sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple.
 Your attempt to divide the biblical commandments into civil, ceremonial and moral laws is just another attempt at Biblical relativism. It is not like the Bible itself divides them into these separate categories. This is just conservative spin, totally made up out of thin air. Is the commandment prohibiting wearing a garment made of two different materials a civil, ceremonial, or moral law? And who get to decide? Is it immoral to wear such a garment? Are you a dirty little sinner because you wear garments made of two different materials? Do you feel bad when you wear such garments? Is your sin now exposed? You can deny it all you want, but the fact is that you claim some commandments are still valid, while ignoring other commandments in the Bible. That is Biblical relativism!


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WheelsOnFire
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07:26 AM on 10/27/2011
LOL!
 You say you have "solid scriptural context" -- you mean, like the solid scriptural context that said that our sun revolves around the earth? (Go read the heliocentrism trial documents against Galileo -- scripture was cited as evidence that he was wrong when he said that it was the earth that did the revolving, not the sun.)
 Then you quote Leviticus -- who also said that eating shellfish is an abomination.
 So, why aren't you picketing at your local Red Lobster restaurant?
 No, you hide here and hurl your nonsense anonymously. You know you would be laughed at if you were to walk around with your silly Leviticus abomination placard outside a seafood restaurant.
 Know this -- you're still being laughed at just the same.


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09:48 AM on 10/27/2011
Ah, the trolling begins. You get bested on one point so you feel the need to try and jump on another conversation of which you werent a point. Like I said in my other rebuttal of your erroneous statements. There is no scripture in the Bible that says the sun revolves around the earth. There IS however a scripture that says same sex acts are sins, multiple ones.
 FAIL. nice try. Not to mention that you cannot use one issue to refute a completely unrelated one. That notion fails even in philosophy or science.
 Ah I see you clearly dont understand the Levitical codes and the difference between the Levitical Priestly code(shellfish prohibitions) and the Levitical Moral Code which dealt with same sex acts, incest, bestiality, etc etc. The former code no longer applies as it dealt with purification in regards to both the levitical priesthood and the people as they remained pure for their animal sacrifices unto God. The New Covenant made those prohibitions no longer necessary as Jesus became the sacrifice for our sins. Unless you see Christians slaying lambs on altars?? No? Ok good, I love some seafood, yummm. Thanks anyway LOL
 Sorry but your "gotcha game" with shellfish is overplayed and incorrect.
 You can laught all you want. Know this. You are laughing in vain as you are wrong.
 Nice try.


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10:14 AM on 10/27/2011
Steven. You are incorrect. Of course the Jews continued sacrificing. They didnt ACCEPT Jesus as the Messiah. They didnt embrace the disciples and Christianity. Why would they? No its not made up out of thin area. Biblical scholars for hundreds of years have pointed to this distinction between the Levitical Priestly Code and the Levitical Moral or Holiness Code. Murder was wrong outside of Leviticus because of the Ten Commandments in Exodus. Murder was wrong in Genesis. You make the mistake of assuming that the Moral code in Leviticus entails all that is moral, not its just one of others to be observed. Demonstrating that other moral laws exisit doesnt invalidate the one in Leviticus as its not comprehensive. The garment? Easy Priestly Code(ceremonial) God decided thats why its in the Bible. Not applicable so no guilt.
 The SPIN is your take on this established theological context because it doesnt fit your world view. sorry but its not relativism, its merely understanding pre-existing Biblical theological context. That accusation just doesnt stick.


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01:03 PM on 11/08/2011
It still seems awfully convenient to me for so many people to expend so much time and energy condemning others for wanting to commit a "sin" they themselves claim to not be interested in committing while paying so little attention to the sins they themselves commit every day. Clean out your own yard first. Then you can worry about your neighbor's.


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01:20 PM on 11/08/2011
Sin is sin no matter what it is and everyone sins myself included something I've said multiple times(so thanks for your advice, I guess) It just so happens that this is one of the preeminent issues of discussion today. So not its not as if Christians are spending all time debating it. If people were not spending so much time attempting to force many Christians to alter their beliefs on the subject, then we wouldnt spend so much time refuting those attempts.


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01:59 PM on 11/08/2011
Define morality. If something is wrong, it's wrong. You may argue that the punishment seemed disproportionate to the crime, but that is by your standard. If God has a standard, what is the penalty for breaking that standard? Should there be a penalty? What was God doing in and through the various laws, rules, and rituals? What is the message to them then? And to us today?
 So, again the question is, why are these laws immoral? If God establishes an order of how things should be, who are we to argue?
 The second question is, why are the penalties prescribed wrong? Even today if we break a secular law we are subject to the penalty ascribed for that infraction. You may not see God's purpose in the prescribed penalty, but to say the are wrong, in effect, says God was wrong.
 These were God's chosen people, specially set aside as God's mean of dealing with a rebellious world. Yet they continually failed to trust, constantly grumbled and complained, and died in the desert as a result of their disobedience.
 God's ways may not seem 'fair' to us. Moses, who led a grumbling ungrateful people around the desert for 40 years because they did not trust God was denied entrance into their land simply for striking a rock instead of speaking to it. Fair? Not by ours maybe, but it was by God's.


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02:02 PM on 11/08/2011
"My guess is that if you believe an follow a literal interpreta­tion of the bible something is going "hit the fan" in short order. "
 Only when you confront people who are determined to live however they please regardless of whether or not there is a God and how that God may want them to live.


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02:13 PM on 11/08/2011
salvation isn't dependent on what anyone does. Living right,or uh learning to live right and growing more and more in the knowledge and fear of the Lord,is a "result" of having already been saved,not a means to it.
 That said..all men/women are commanded to obey God..and really,who can really, know for sure if they have or have not been saved,when it is all up to God.So..we live and learn and try anyway and hope and pray we are his..if we are not..well it is not somethimg we ever deserved anyway.


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02:31 PM on 11/08/2011
Jesus said: "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." (John 17:3)
 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13)
 We can know for sure that we have eternal life. Jesus paid the price in full. The Holy Spirit is given to us as a guarantee (or down payment) for what Jesus has purchased through his shed blood.
 As saved, we are continually working out our salvation, meaning we take what is inside of us and continually try to work it to the outside, or thoughts, words, and actions.
 "if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10)
 You're right though, none of us deserve it, but God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.


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03:18 PM on 11/08/2011
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
 John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
 John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
 John 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
 John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
 Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
 Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
 Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


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03:30 PM on 11/08/2011
But Jesus also says:
 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. (Revelation 3:20)
 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16)
 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
 The Bible consistently portrays acceptance by the believer as a requirement, AND it also consistently portrays that we are predestined. A paradox.
 We can only view predestination from our limited perspective. We think of eternity as a timeline with arrows at both ends. Eternity is not just lots of time, it's being outside of time altogether. We have no means of comprehending this.
 The whole conflict of free will and predestination is resolved when you step outside of time, but because we can't do that from here, the apparent paradox remains.


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04:05 PM on 11/08/2011
you can not hear the knock if you do not have the ears to hear it.
 yes,if we believe in Jesus..but what does that mean ? that we believed he existed and exist ? "even the devils believe and tremble" I think it means ,we believe HE did the Work,and we can only believe that,IF he has done the work..see ?
 I understand time is sort of an illusion.Though we exist in it.God is not bound by time..he is the " I AM",I also understand that he is the creator and the saviour,I am not.
 Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
 Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.


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03:36 PM on 11/08/2011
and...
 Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
 John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
 John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
 John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
 John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
 then there is Romans chapter 9..it is ALL over the Bible
 Lazarus is a very good example of Salvation.
 while he was dead in that tomb,did he lay there deciding whether he wanted to obey Jesus or not ? NO.that would be impossible.
 God had to give him life,the ears to hear AND the will and ability to obey.
 Freewill doctrin leads to self righteousness ..which is why i think he has made it impossible for us to save ourselves. we must rely Completely on him.
 "least any man should boast"
 so..I am ok with it.I think I understand why it MUST be this way.


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03:55 PM on 11/08/2011
The price was paid by another (Jesus) and presents eternal life to us as a gift. But as with any other gift we are free to accept or reject it.


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08:01 PM on 11/08/2011
if you are his you can not,will not reject it. Stop trying to take any credit.
 John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
 Isa 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
 Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
 Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
 Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


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03:49 PM on 11/08/2011
Mark 1:40 And there came a leper to him, beseeching him, and kneeling down to him, and saying unto him, If thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
 Mark 1:41 And Jesus, moved with compassion, put forth his hand, and touched him, and saith unto him, I will; be thou clean.
 Mark 1:42 And as soon as he had spoken, immediately the leprosy departed from him, and he was cleansed.
 also..hwo do you give all the glory and praise to God,if you take credit for anything ? Notice that the leper understood that if God wanted to,he could heal him,but the Lper did not know if God wanted to...so he asked ? But,he was admitting in that asking that it is ONLY God that could.


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03:52 PM on 11/08/2011
ok ok Last one for now lol I keep thinking of more
 Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
 Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
 Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
 Luke 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
 Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
 Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


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Inspiring LGBT Religious Leaders

 By Paul Brandeis Raushenbush   Posted: 10/20/2011 1:45 pm EDT  |  Updated: 09/04/2013 12:21 pm EDT 





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Reflecting and shaping the culture in which it is embedded, religion has historically been hostile to LGBT-identified people and communities. However, over the last three decades more denominations, congregations and individuals have come out in support of honoring the full humanity of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered people. Today, hundreds, if not thousands, of religious communities are truly places of celebration, healing and hope for all people.
This initial list of 15 ground breaking individuals is just a sampling of the many LGBT religious leaders who have reclaimed religious traditions and communities. We hope that you will use the feature on this slideshow to add gay religious leaders who you feel should be included. Meanwhile, we thankfully acknowledge the ongoing contributions of these inspiring religious leaders.

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Most Inspiring LGBT Religious Leaders
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Rev. Dr. Mark Achtemeier

Rev. Dr. Mark Achtemeier: Coming Out as an Evangelical Supporter of Gay Rights 
When I was ordained in 1984 I believed that gay and lesbian people could become "normal" through repentance and prayer. But in the last decade, I began to discover that God had other plans.

Chely Wright

Chely Wright: Confessions of a Gay Christian Country Singer 
The very root of who I am and the core of what Country Music seems to be about is honesty, openness and accessibility. But I had to close myself off in order to survive.

Rev. Patrick S. Cheng, Ph.D.

Rev. Patrick S. Cheng, Ph.D.: What Was the Real Sin of Sodom? 
The true sin of the Sodomites as described in the Bible has nothing to do with same-sex acts per se. Rather, the ancient Sodomites were punished by God for a far greater sins: radical inhospitality.

Rev. Patrick S. Cheng, Ph.D.

Rev. Patrick S. Cheng, Ph.D.: "Love The Sinner, Hate The Sin" And Other Modern-Day Heresies 
I believe those Christians who "hate" LGBT sexualities and gender expressions while allegedly "loving" LGBT people are nothing more than modern-day gnostics, who were condemned as heretical by early Church theologians.

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09:41 PM on 10/22/2011
Jesus "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.By this all will know that you are My disciples.”
Christ loved everyone. He also said, "He That Is without sin, Cast The First Stone"
 "Real Christians" do not hate. The only real abomination in this world is the rampant hatred that exists.


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BornOKtheFirstTime
pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo .
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01:03 PM on 10/23/2011
Unfortunately many Christians have developed an elaborate denial system whereby they have made themselves believe they are showing their love for gays by insisting that they change or remain celibate. The "love the sinner, hate the sin" talking point allows them to shield themselves from their own hatefulness and bigotry. Christianity has a long sordid tradition of brutality in the name of "love". The Inquisitors showed their Christian love by torturing heretics in this life so they wouldn't have to suffer in the next. Good Christian missionaries showed their love to native Americans by attempting to strip them of their religious traditions and languages.


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02:34 PM on 10/23/2011
"love the sinner, hate the sin" I have heard that a lot too, an oxymoron if you ask me.
 I search and search and have found it never came out of the mouth of Christ.
 The message Christ spread was and is to this day revolutionary. He was the penultimate Humanist.
 If Christians embraced the word of love there would be not hate, there
 When I was a teen, many moons ago, I listened to my Pastor speech of the "scourge of homosexuality" and how they would burn in hell.
 I hate a meeting with him that very day and renounced my faith in a Church built by men not the hand of God.


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06:04 AM on 10/26/2011
The phrase "love the sinner, hate the sin" is often attributed to Gandhi. While this platitude is often criticized, I tend to like it (but maybe now with reservations). It all depends on how one "hates the sin." After all, sometimes we find ourselves in a situation where we need to treat a person with respect, but this does not mean that we have to condone everything this person does. But all too often, "hating the sin" is simply thinly veiled hating the sinner. And all too often Christians mistakenly think that they need to go around telling people that they are "sinners," as if that was the secret to making friends.


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12:01 PM on 10/26/2011
Well articulated Steve.


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12:36 PM on 11/08/2011
"But all too often, 'hating the sin' is simply thinly veiled hating the sinner. And all too often Christians mistakenly think that they need to go around telling people that they are 'sinners,' as if that was the secret to making friends.”
Ain't it the truth!


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09:26 AM on 10/25/2011
I agree real Christians do not hate. They love. I love everyone. I just dont support sin. Jesus demonstrated precisely how to love the sinner not the sin with the woman caught in adultery, with zacchaeus the tax collector, with Mary Magdelene with many others. If anyone suggests this approach is un-christian then perhaps they need to reassess what a Christian really is.


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upndacity
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11:29 PM on 10/25/2011
The only sin you need to worry about it your own.


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wonderYrednow
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01:44 AM on 10/26/2011
I think dbm30 should worry about mine, it would keep him really busy and I could entertain all my friends with the little fool scurrying around in my wake.....


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08:12 AM on 10/26/2011
That's not what the BIble says. Thanks anyway.


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detroitblkmale30
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10:23 AM on 10/28/2011
Saying something is a sin is far from being the same thing as hating. If you are going to quote Jesus then perhaps you should quote his support for OT law which includes Lev. 20:13


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10:58 AM on 10/28/2011
My point being is that many of our Churches do use the bible to serve the political will of their congregations and forget the central message of love.
 The biggest transgression or sin a Christian can make is to turn his or her back on the the word of Christ and that is to "love on another".
 The hate generated by those who accept a literal interpretation of the bible is sinful.


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11:03 AM on 10/28/2011
Saying something is a sin is far from hate. You seem to miss the point that people aren taking their agendas and writing scripture they are taking scripture to inform their positions. Love without spiritual accountability is not what Jesus called for.
 No the biggest transgression is those who put themselves in the place of God by using his scriptures "love" as a smokescreen to revise the scriptures as they see fit for their own desires.
 The Bible warns against doing just this.
 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding Prov. 3:5
 3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 2 time 4:3


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12:30 PM on 10/28/2011
Christ made no mention of the homosexuality in his Testament. Not once. Christ spoke of love. Humanity speaks of hate. I am not a biblical scholar, I pick and choose like you seem too.
 I trust in the Lord by loving all my brothers and sisters, regardless of sexual orientation.
 Love is the central theme of the bible and sadly the most misunderstood.
 I think you are off track.


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12:50 PM on 10/28/2011
You are right he made no mention of it. No supporting statements of it. Given that the law already prohibited same sex acts the onus would be on Jesus to revise it, as he did divorce, stoning, forgiveness etc etc. Yet as you have stated "not once" Jesus did say in the gospels that he supported OT law which included such prohibitions. If he supportes homosexuality why didnt he say so? An omnisicient God knew then that we'd be having this conversation now. No I dont pick and choose that is the difference between us, I take the Bible in its entirety and proper theological context. You are applying secular humanist reasoning through the lense of "love" to the text. We do agree that love is misunderstood when it comes to the BIble. It does not mean that anything is permissible even when it contradicts the scriptures simply as long as love is involved. Using that notion you could justify almost every sin in the Bible including adultery, theft, murder, lying, incest etc etc etc.That notion is what is off track.


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layla1
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09:31 PM on 10/22/2011
I listened to the video by Bishop Robinson, thank you Bishop, I really needed to hear those words of encouragement tonight. Amen


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04:26 PM on 10/22/2011
Hmm. Angry, self-righteous Christians on the right saying god wants one thing. Angry, self-righteous Christians on the left using the same book and creeds to say god wants another.
 Yeah, I'm still good without god.


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LintLass
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06:13 PM on 10/22/2011
See, you nearly touched on the Christians' most dreaded phrase: 'I Don't Know.' If they don't know, maybe they should stop oppressing and defaming LGBT people till further notice from 'on high?' :)


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04:05 PM on 10/22/2011
The bible is just a giant verbal Rorschach. Everyone sees what they need to see, which is why it continues to still be so popular. It provides whatever support a person needs to defend their personal biases, beliefs and prejudices. It makes every reader feel special and validated in the eyes of god.


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04:51 PM on 10/22/2011
No if it is read as it is suppossed to be read. " Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashaqmed, rightly dividing the word of truth".


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05:12 PM on 10/22/2011
And who gets to decide if you are rightly dividing the word of truth? You fail to see that you have become the problem, your interpretation of the Bible is merely a mirror reflection of your own personal beliefs.


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Salty too
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05:30 PM on 10/22/2011
Your ignorance is great. There is not enough space to educate you here. But then again you're not interested in that are you? If you were you would realize just how foolish you are being. " Let the ignorant be ignorant" The bible is not hard to understand. Differant books are written to differant people for differant times. A child can see that.


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06:29 PM on 10/22/2011
All you can do is name calling because you have no argument to stand on!


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ladycrisperfst
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08:52 PM on 10/22/2011
Ignorant just means you do not know something. We all are ignorant in something or another. No one has all the answers that is God's job.


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11:01 PM on 10/22/2011
Cmon Steven! You know you're trying to take a leak into a fan that's on "high" when you argue with these folks.
 Name calling is the ultimate form of fallback. Instead of arguing facts, they say you're ignorant.
 Let me go ahead and tell you what the next statement will be from them......"They take it all of faith"......
 Anyway, I'm loving this! More popcorn please!


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04:56 PM on 10/22/2011
Re: "The bible is just a giant verbal Rorschach."
 There is a lot of truth in that. If one is for slavery, the Bible is for slavery. If one is against slavery, the Bible is against slavery. And in my experience, this problem exists on the left, as much as on the right. The left often interpret Jesus as a liberal, just as the right interpret Jesus as a conservative.
 Without breaking my arm patting myself on the back, instead of reinterpreting the Bible to always agree with me, I simply claim that the Bible is wrong on those issues. In my opinion, it is a more honest approach.


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01:45 PM on 10/22/2011
In the major social movements in the last two centuries, including Abolition of Slavery, Woman’s Suffrage, Civil Rights, Woman’s Equal Rights, and Gay Marriage, there have been conservative Christians fighting against progress as well as liberal Christians fighting for progress. The second largest Christian group in the US (after the Roman Church), the Southern Baptist Convention [SBC], became a separate denomination in 1845 following a regional split with northern Baptists over the issues of slavery. The SBC supported slavery, claiming that the Bible justified slavery; then they supported Jim Crow laws and segregation; they fought against federal lynching laws, desegregation and civil rights. In the 1940s, most conservative Christians were Democrats, but as the Democratic Party embraced civil rights, many conservative Christians switched parties from the Democrats to the Republicans, thus making the Republican Party the party of conservative Christians, a direct result of their thinly veiled racism. Today most mainline Protestant Churches are ordaining those in same-sex relationships, and claim that homosexuality is not a sin. The conservative Churches continue to fight against progress and equal rights; and while their influence is slowly diminishing, and although they no longer have the stranglehold on American society and the US political system which they once had, they are still a powerful voting bloc today, largely motivated by hatred and bigotry.


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Stand Up for your Belief
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01:41 PM on 10/22/2011
Are they reading the same Bible that I'm reading?!?!? In the one I have, God clearly finds homosexuality and abomination unto him and a SIN.


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02:47 PM on 10/22/2011
Do you follow every commandment in the Bible? Conservative Christians have a double standard. They are willing to condemn those who don't follow scripture, while they themselves do not follow all the commandments in scripture.
 Peter writes: "[Wives] Do not adorn yourselves outwardly by braiding your hair, and by wearing gold ornaments or fine clothing" (1 Peter 3:3 NRSV). Walk into any conservative Church, how many married women are wearing gold ornaments on their left hand? How many are wearing fine clothing? But of course, they can rationalize away the need to follow this commandment. Or what about: “You shall keep my statutes. You shall not let your animals breed with a different kind; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed; nor shall you put on a garment made of two different materials” (Leviticus 19:19 NRSV).
 Are you reading the same Bible that I'm reading????


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bcbcol09
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03:41 PM on 10/22/2011
We have to be mindful that we ALL struggle with SOMETHING. It's fine to be open and honest with ourselves and others because truth sets you free, but we need to also uphold and help one another understand that we cannot allow ourselves to give into carnal desires or our weaknesses NO MATTER WHAT THEY ARE! A sin is a sin is a sin!


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04:15 PM on 10/22/2011
Re: "A sin is a sin is a sin!"
 I wonder if you even read my message before replying to it? Because nothing of what you wrote actually addresses the issues I raised.
 Furthermore, not all "sins" are created equally. Eating a hotdog is not the same as murder. Sure, eating non-kosher foods was called a sin in Hebrew scripture, but are you really going to argue that there is no difference between them? What about wearing a "garment made of two different materials"? Is that just as bad as adultery?


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LintLass
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06:32 PM on 10/22/2011
I think this is where they get the idea that hurting or killing LGBT people is 'no worse' than just being an LGBT person and being there.


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11:04 PM on 10/22/2011
Ahhhh....Pick N Choose Christianity! Pick the parts you like, ignore the parts you can't follow and then expect everybody else to follow the ENTIRE Bible!
 Wonderful! Isn't this a thing of beauty? Do as I say, not as I do?
 The sweet smell of hypocrisy in the morning!


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whatsupcastleman
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03:59 PM on 10/22/2011
Why do Levitical laws always show up in this debate ? A Christian in the New Covenant doesn't have to perform those old ceremonial, or civil laws that pertain to Israel.
 A Christian is a lawbreaker at every point. (Romans 3 “ There is none righteous, no, not one;) However, that does not justify disobedience. A Christian seeks to align their will to what God's will is. It is positively expressed in scripture that men and women belong together. Even the illustration of Christ and His bride the church is understood within the marriage construct.
 It is unnatural for two people to exchange sexual relations with each other when they do not have the natural faculties, given to them by God. The scripture calls these acts unnatural, and they stem from dishonorable passions. (Romans 1)
 One can struggle with sin and remain a Christian. However, the Christian must recognize it as a sin, and fight against those sexual desires, praying that they can align themselves to God's will. It shouldn't be called obedience to God's revealed will.
 It's insane to hang the Old Covenant in all of it's worship practices over the heads of New Covenant Christians. We don't do animal sacrifices in a temple. We are not under a theocracy. We don't need a levitical priesthood to perform sacrifices. We have Jesus Christ our High Priest. The bridegroom of the church. The church should learn to submit to her husband.


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04:32 PM on 10/22/2011
Re: "It is unnatural for two people to exchange sexual relations with each other when they do not have the natural faculties, given to them by God. The scripture calls these acts unnatural, and they stem from dishonorab­le passions. (Romans 1)"
 The Bible is wrong.
 The Bible also claims that one should take a "stubborn and rebellious son" out to the edge of town and stone him (Deut 21:18-21). The Bible also claims that if a man rapes a virgin, he should be fined and forced to marry his rape victim (Deut 22:28-29). The Bible even legislated how to sell one's daughter as a sex-slave (Exodus 21:7-11). The Bible claims that if someone steals and is unable to pay restitution, that thief should be sold into slavery (Exodus 22:3). The Bible teaches that if a wife, defending her husband, accidentally touches the attacker's genitals, she should have her hand cut off (Deut 25:11). The Bible also condones ethnic cleansing and genocide (Joshua).
 And in the New Testament, Peter writes: "[Wives] Do not adorn yourselves outwardly by braiding your hair, and by wearing gold ornaments or fine clothing" (1 Peter 3:3 NRSV). Walk into any conservative Church, how many married women are wearing gold ornaments on their left hand? How many are wearing fine clothing?


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LintLass
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06:34 PM on 10/22/2011
So, you're saying that a certain kind of gay sex in a list of those same ritual 'sins/abominations' actually belonged in another category... Cause you don't like gay people?


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04:53 PM on 10/22/2011
Firswt get a real bible and secoundly learn to "rightly divide the word of truth" as instucted.


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05:04 PM on 10/22/2011
Actually, I read the New Testament in Greek. Is that good enough for you?
 Tell me, how should one rightly divide the following?: ὧν ἔστω οὐχ ὁ ἔξωθεν ἐμπλοκῆς τριχῶν καὶ περιθέσεως χρυσίων ἢ ἐνδύσεως ἱματίων κόσμος


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Salty too
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05:23 PM on 10/22/2011
So what? Which dialect? There was more than sixty. Just because you read the Greek doesn't mean you know or understand what it is saying. Just the fact you use a perverted text shows me just how little you know. BTW anyone can google a text and make claimes. You obviously don't know the most basic rule when reading the bible, how to rightly divide it. Different books were written to differant people for differant times. Thats something any bible student learns on day one.


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06:36 PM on 10/22/2011
Actually I read Greek from Homer to Medieval Byzantine Greek, including reading the Greek New Testament weekly with my pastor for over 20 years. My major in college was Classical Languages, where I learned Greek, Hebrew and Latin. There really isn't a great difference between the dialects. For example, there is a greater difference between Homer and Plato than there is between Xenophon and the Greek New Testament.
 All you can do is slander those who disagree with you because you lack any arguments of merit to substantiate your point.


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Salty too
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09:30 PM on 10/22/2011
StevenM, All those years and never learned a simple thing like rightly dividing the truth?


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jaggeththewires
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10:17 PM on 10/22/2011
WELL I DONT KNOW MY gREEK, HEBREW OR aRABIC BUT "IT IS ABOMINATION!" IS CRYSTAL CLEAR.


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10:38 PM on 10/22/2011
Re: ""IT IS ABOMINATIO­N!" IS CRYSTAL CLEAR."
 The Bible says that eating deer meat or pork is an abomination. Is that what you mean?


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jaggeththewires
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10:46 PM on 10/22/2011
No Steve. The Holy Ghost told Peter he could get his grub on and eat anything as long as it wasnt sacrificed to idols! Jesus Himself said the no sexually immoral person will ever even see the kingdom of God let alone enter into it!


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StevenM
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10:49 PM on 10/22/2011
Re: "The Holy Ghost told Peter ... "
 That he didn't have to follow the commandments in the Bible!


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jaggeththewires
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11:08 PM on 10/22/2011
Peter had A VISION...aLL kinds of beast that were formerly forbidden Jews were laid out before him and the spirit told him to eat... It is not what goes into a man that defiles him but rather what comes out!


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StevenM
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07:13 AM on 10/23/2011
Re: "Peter had A VISION..."
 And what was the result of this vision? Peter decided that God didn't want us to follow all the commandments in the Bible! Specifically, one didn't need to follow the kosher commandments in the Bible.
 This is an important precedent! Paul also concluded that males no longer needed to be physically circumcised. In other words, Paul too concluded that we didn't need to follow all the commandments in the Bible.
 Just as eating non-kosher is not a sin, just as a man not being circumcised is not a sin, so too homosexuality is not a sin! The Holy Spirit has revealed to the mainline Churches, as the body of Christ, that homosexuality is not a sin.


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jaggeththewires
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01:49 PM on 10/23/2011
Stetve the Holy Ghost has done no such a thing. God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. All sexual immorality is sin. Jesus said that he hated the practices of the Nicolaitanes and that He would slay them with His His words unless they repent.


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StevenM
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07:57 PM on 10/23/2011
Re: "God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve."
 Did you think that one up all by yourself? Or did you copy it?
 Actually, God made us all, Adam, Eve, Susan, and Steve. What is important is how we live our lives, not whom we condemn. The two great commandments are to love God and to love others. You have distorted the Christian message to be one of hatred and condemnation, instead of inclusivity, love, and compassion for others.


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jaggeththewires
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08:37 PM on 10/23/2011
God made us male and fremale perfectly formed to mate with the opposite sex. A hom condemn himself by not OBEYING. Jesus say if you love me then do as Isay. He say repent or perish! What is so hard about that for you to understand? It aint got nothing to do wit me. God made the rules not Jaggy!


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detroitblkmale30
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09:32 AM on 10/25/2011
Well said. While Paul through his vision, provided a revision of dietary things and circumcision. He did no such thing for same sex acts. PEople like Steven take that and using moral relativism say "well if we dont have to pay attention to THOSE laws, then perhaps we dont have to pay attention to THESE laws. This of course would never be supported in any other methodical context. In law you must have a precedent. You cant say well because the court determined that marriage is legal then polygamy must be legal too. Two different things. There is no theological predcent in the Bible that reverses what the Bible says on same sex acts. Those who support it either have to undergo extreme mental gymnastics or go with a vague "its all about love" approach. Neither are sufficient.


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07:20 PM on 10/25/2011
Jesus say if we love Him then we will obey!


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12:46 PM on 10/26/2011
Steven...I love it when someone knows what their talking about...as opposed to mouthing dogma. F & F ( I'll have to take your word on the Greek though...). It's useful to recognize myth and superstition...as myth and superstion. Someone has said that you can't reason someone out of something...they were never reasoned into in the first place. I don't think that Salty Too was ever reasoned into his position. Good luck...(sigh)


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jaggeththewires
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10:25 PM on 10/22/2011
Steve, Peter is not forbidding women to braid their hair or wear fine raiment. He is admonishing them to seek the real beauty that lies within and adorn themselves with the modesty of a pure heart.


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10:39 PM on 10/22/2011
You are presenting a typical conservative rationalization as to why they don't have to obey a clear and unambiguous commandment. What part of "do not" do you not understand? In fact, this commandment doesn't appear just once, but it is also found in 1 Timothy 2:9: "women should dress themselves modestly and decently in suitable clothing, not with their hair braided, or with gold, pearls, or expensive clothes." If you don't wish to follow these clear and unambiguous commandments, at least be honest about it. But 1 Peter 3:3 and 1 Timothy 2:9 clearly prohibit married women from wearing gold, braided hair, and fine clothes.


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10:59 PM on 10/22/2011
I believe a Christian woman should be modest in all things, However I think Paul was using those things as example of frivolous things that are not to be favored over a pure and modest heart. Paul lacked the authority to specifically dictate what another mans wife could wear!


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HGfromOmaha
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11:06 PM on 10/22/2011
So suppose what you "believe" is wrong?
 Pure and modest? Hmmmm.....that pretty much eliminates most of the people who use the label "Christian".


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jaggeththewires
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11:23 PM on 10/22/2011
I aint wrong Omaha.My wife can go about the house butt naked and it would be okay with me. In public she is always GQ and we black so braids is second nature. I have never been offended by what she wear and me and Jesus be buddies so---


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HGfromOmaha
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11:28 PM on 10/22/2011
As I said in another post, you have nothing but your "belief". You have no evidence. Of course nobody can argue "faith". It's the old fall-back.
 But the bottom line is this. Only the dead know if there is a God, Jesus, Heaven, Hell, Satan, Angels, etc. They're the only ones that know and they're not telling.
 Anything else? Your faith & belief is all you have. No proof. You can have your beliefs. That's personal. Nobody can begrudge you that. Just don't use YOUR belief to tear down someone elses belief. You wouldn't like it if they did it to you.


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jaggeththewires
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12:51 AM on 10/23/2011
Omaha my God is God. All others are pretenders to the throne. There is nothing you can say or do to tear down God. I have seen hell. I know it is real. I have seen and been healed by the touch of an angel. I have seen God high and lifted up on His throne. You can play patty cake ifn you want to. However dont be trying to talk to me if you qwine to mix light wit darkness. The sexually immoral are sinning and need to repent. They do not inspire one to righteousness. They spose to lay down their burden not tote it around like a talisman.


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jaggeththewires
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02:47 PM on 10/23/2011
Omaha the monitors removed your post but I will respond. First off i be talking likes I do cause it irks uppity peoples and I likes the rhythm. Yall always be trying to correct my speech or suggest I take an English course. Brotha I knows what I be saying!
 Noah preached for 500 years: " It's gwine to rain folks. " It had never rained before. They thought he was crazy too. But guess what? They was banging on his door for long when the flood waters came!
 Most people with near death expierences claim they go to heaven. I went to the other place. Trust me. Nobody want to be there. Technically I didnt actually enter hell. I skirted the borders but the sights and sounds and smells along the way were more than enough to haunt my being.


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jaggeththewires
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02:47 PM on 10/23/2011
I had been choking with an asthma attack and suddenly I found myself being pushed through a tunnel at an unbelievably fast speed. i was deposited on the darkened shore of a very eerie place. The darkness was so black and thick you you feel and taste it. The taste was like charcoal and the air was suffocating and filled with screams and moaning. I was shoved into a boat and the boatman rowed me to the opposite shores of a murky lake. i was a teenager an had done nothing I thought sufficient to land me in that place. I was offended at the thought of being labeled a sinner. Didnt drink. Didnt smoke. I wasnt in a gang. Wasnt no bodies baby daddy. Didnt sass my momma. Didnt play that boogy woogy. Went to church twice every Sunday! Got straight A's in class. Why would God be mad at me? Yet there I was. I was perplexed. I couldnt really see anything but I could feel the presence of someone approaching me so I screamed:" Let me out of here. Somebody made a mistake! Help Lord!" Immediately I was in my own room safe and sound. Next day I was the first one in the line to be saved!


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StevenM
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03:53 AM on 10/23/2011
Re: "Paul lacked the authority to specifical­ly dictate what another mans wife could wear!"
 You're funny.


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HGfromOmaha
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07:01 PM on 10/23/2011
jaggeththewires...this thread is all jacked up but it is what it is. I'll respond here. Hope you see this.
 You have a right to believe what you believe. I don't think anybody will begrudge you that. The problem is when folks try to convince others that their way is right.
 No matter what you say, how passionate you are about your beliefs and such, the fact remains that what you wrote about is a personal incident that only you will know whether or not it's fabricated or not. Only you know. The human body does all sorts of things when in a crisis mode. Having an asthma attack is a crisis mode.
 Now, if were sitting at your desk at work, or in school, and a hole in the sky appeared and you saw the things you saw, and others saw it as well, then you'd have grounds to stand on. But you already had an understanding of "Heaven and Hell". You had already been in church. So your subconscious took over. Your brain starving for oxygen. But, once again, it's your experience. I can't knock it. Believe what you will.


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jaggeththewires
God said what? .
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09:06 PM on 10/23/2011
Okay Omaha, How about this one. I was in my twenties and running late for work. i was rushing across a bridge. There was construction going on and there was only one very narrow path to walk on to get across the bridge. There was this huge fellow in front of me taking up all the room in my path. he was wearing a light blue raincoat and had blonde fuzzy hair. He shoulders were extremely wide like he was on steroids. In my rush I bumped into him. We paused and he said he was glad we ran into each other. he had a folder in his hand and said his boss wanted me to have lunch with . he said his bossed helped out people who were struggling . I was about to purchase my first home and was a little short on cash. i didnt trust him. I rushed passed smh. I took two steps and froze. I had bumped into a blonde man in a blue coat. however, i had been conversating with a female who was brunette and wearing a pink coat. I turned around and he/she was gone. There was no where this person coulda went unless they jumped the bridge. That evening at the closing table I found out my required down-payment had been cut in half!


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HGfromOmaha
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07:03 PM on 10/23/2011
My point remains and I there is no man that can convince me otherwise.
 Only the dead know. Everything else is a guess at best.
 Do what you feel you have to to achieve your own peace. Just don't try to put your beliefs on others. You wouldn't like it if others tried to do it to you.


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jaggeththewires
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08:29 PM on 10/23/2011
Omaha I serve the one an only true and living God why would I care what any body has to say? It appears you the one can be swayed by the wind. I, know Him in whom I believe.


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HGfromOmaha
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09:11 PM on 10/23/2011
Oh please don't get it twisted. I don't blow with the wind or am swayed easily. I am unequivocally convinced that 99.999%m of the people who consider themselves to be so-called Christians are nothing more than hypocrites who are caught up in their own self-righteousness. You know....the kind of people that Jesus preached against and condemned.
 Of course you don't care what anyone else says! You're too caught up in your own spiritual wonderfulness and self-righteousness!
 Unless you can prove otherwise, the indisputable fact remains; only the dead know.
 And guess what? You can't prove otherwise!


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HGfromOmaha
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09:53 PM on 10/23/2011
I guess you missed the part I wrote earlier about personal incidents. I find it interesting that your Jesus is White with blonde hair. And muscular. Whatever works for you.
 I also find it interesting, that there are millions in this country and around the world, with cancer, heart disease, lung disease, paralysis, and all other sorts of ailments, who pray every day, yet God doesn't do anything for them. When I was visiting my Father in the cancer ward, a minister for 52 years, his Father, also a minister for 50 plus years, both died of cancer. Yet God couldn't do anything for them? Really? You have kids in the cancer ward, dying. Babies born with all sorts of diseases and they die. Their body literally falls to pieces.
 And yet here you are. You get a reduced rate on your home loan and that's some sort of reference to God?
 My brother said the same thing about his house. He would never get in that house if it weren't for God. Got up and testified and was telling anyone that would listen that God gave him the house. Then the housing market crashed, his home value plunged and now he is underwater with his mortgage.
 As I said, believe what you do. That's your business. I don't buy it.


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jaggeththewires
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10:47 PM on 10/23/2011
Omaha it is appointed unto man to die. However if we die as a believer we know that we shall live again. Swish, you missed it. The fact is that I saw an touched an angel. he was rushing. i was rushing but we clashed! The angel did appear as a white person Jesus however has been described as having skin of bronze. At the time I was in good health. i didnt need a healing. I needed cash so yeah reducing my mortgage was the right blessing for me! btw my kid still live in that house which is paid for!


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HGfromOmaha
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02:14 PM on 10/24/2011
Ha! on "Swish, you missed it". Now, that's original! Have to laugh at that one!
 Anyway, you and I will never agree. It's quite obvious that you have your belief and I have no problem with you believing what you do. As I said, don't push it on me and I'm fine.
 You still completely miss the point but that's ok. That's like saying "Boom! You're blinded by religion just like the Pharisees!"
 But hey. It's your life. Live it how you want. Believe what you want. I'll say it a million times. Believe what you want. Just don't push your belief on me.


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jaggeththewires
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03:01 PM on 10/24/2011
Omaha why come you believe people who are not obeying God themselves can in any way inspire others to do so? People spose to do as the say while seeing the evil they do and proudly proclaim!


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HGfromOmaha
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12:18 AM on 10/25/2011
jagge....we're going to run out of room to reply! I just got in from a long day on the road. I'm tired but will respond very quickly to your post. I'm really not sure what you're asking me. I think you asked how come I believe that people who are not obeying God themselves can in any way inspire others?
 Well, I don't believe that. I believe that the majority of the current people who call themselves are hypocrites. I think they use Christianity as a label and not as a life experience. They want to "fit in" and not be associated with Satan so they claim Christ, while their very lives reflect what we consider to be immoral behavior.
 The Bible clearly states that you can't serve two Masters. Yet, you have people who claim to follow Christ, behaving in ways that are clearly outlawed in the Bible. This modern day sect of "Pick N Choose Christianity" is destroying lives worldwide.
 I would rather show up at Judgment Day knowing that I have no allegiance to any church and let my life's record speak for itself. I would put my record and life's work up against ANY of the so-called Christians.
 Unlike most, I've studied and educated myself regarding my beliefs. I just don't regurgitate what some guy in a pulpit told me. Being educated doesn't make me smart but I'm able to discern Biblical hypocrisy and call things as they are.
 Anyway, that's all.


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jaggeththewires
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07:17 PM on 10/25/2011
So how did you educate yourself on your beliefs? You aint dead. You dont believe the book or the preacher. You dont believe any one living has communicated with Him. Where did you glean your wisdom Omaha???


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jaggeththewires
God said what? .
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05:32 PM on 10/23/2011
Hey Steve aint the church suppose to be dolling ourselves up like a bride adorned for her husband? Why come you want us to be going around in sackcloth n ashes?


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StevenM
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07:50 PM on 10/23/2011
Your metaphors don't even make any sense. Do you hide behind them because you have nothing of substance to say?


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jaggeththewires
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08:32 PM on 10/23/2011
Steve you know exactly what I said and it blew you out the water! Ha!


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BoyThreeOne
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01:58 PM on 10/26/2011
I'm a Christian, but you aren't an example for me of anything but pride, self-righteous judgment and the false equating of material gain with God's favor. I pray that love will touch you one day.


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jaggeththewires
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02:08 PM on 10/26/2011
Boy, Jaggy done submitted my will unto the will of God. He say jump I say how high Lord? I, aint the one trying to rewrite the book! God the one gave the judgement and rendered the sentence for disobedience not me. If you gots a problem with that tell it to the Judge!


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suec03
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03:31 PM on 10/22/2011
I have heard that the problem is with the interpretation of the word that has been translated in English editions as "abomination."  I have heard more than one person with theological training explain that the passage means that homosexual ritual practices were outside of the religious practices of the Israelites.  This was to explain Jewish religious ritual by contrasting it with Roman or other pagan homosexual rituals.  It was explained that this Biblical passage did not address homosexuality outside of religious ceremonies.


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bcbcol09
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03:39 PM on 10/22/2011
I agree. You must acknowledge your own personal truth, but the whole point behind that is to align your will with God's will (easier said than done sometimes). But it's not okay to openly engage in sin!


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aviandonn
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03:59 PM on 10/22/2011
I'm sure the Christians in the list are indeed reading the same bible. Funny thing that, hu? So many Christians who aren't getting the same message from god that you are.


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Salty too
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04:55 PM on 10/22/2011
They are playing church and ignoring what they don't agree with. This is true with many people, including many Christians and make believe Christians.


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see-ellen2001
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04:15 PM on 10/22/2011
The same bible where the daughters plan to preserve their father's seed...yes in the biblical sense. So incest is a-ok?


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LintLass
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06:11 PM on 10/22/2011
Seems interesting how they gloss over that bit of extreme-breeding heterosexuality immediately after the part where they ignore the hospitality laws and assume that *obviously* in a city famed for being afraid of strangers, there was obviously a mob of 'gay agenda' that just had to do some angel-rapin', or else. :)
 Apparently, the idea is that Lot got wasted and was pointing at a city that got nuked from orbit and a pillar of salt, and was like, 'See, girls, this is all about buttsecs. People really have to be breeders.' 'But we're the only people left in the world, Dad?"
 Really just a long


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upndacity
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11:31 PM on 10/25/2011
The BIble . . . yes, the book that says slavery is okay. Gone out and taken any slaves from neighboring villages by force lately?
 It's okay with God!!!


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tomp0228
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12:22 PM on 10/22/2011
If only the LGBT comminity and Christians could somehow be on the same page. As a Christian, my goal is to tell people the good news that Jesus brought us. That news is that ALL can be saved by accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior.
 The bible teaches that to practice homosexuality is wrong. We all have our own sins to bear, and gays have the the sin of homosexuality. Just as I may want to lie or cheat or steal, the gay wants to engage in sexual relations with the same sex. That's pretty natural, as we all sin and fall short of the glory of God.
 Jesus came into the world not to condemn us, but to save us. When we trust in Christ, the urge to sin might not go away, but He will give us the strength to overcome that sin.
 Since we all fall short, gays might not always win that war against practicing homosexuality, just as I might not win that battle to lie, cheat or, steal. However, if we'll repent, He is faithful to forgive our sin.
 My prayer is that gays will know that homosexuality is sin, (Please note that I'm a sinner as well) but also that the grace of God can prevail over all sin, if only we'll trust Him and allow Him to work in our lives.


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Lucy0808
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1195 Fans
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04:16 PM on 10/23/2011
Being gay is not the same as lying, cheating. Heterosexuals engage in sex and are they sinning? Lying hurts another if done for the wrong reasons. Cheating or stealing takes from another. Sex with a partner is an affirmation of love and not hurting anyone, and in fact, being loving. The bigotry and poorly thought positioning is offensive and absurd.
 The bible has lists of sins that include hundreds of items including food one eats and the cloth one wears and who you are eating with. It allows and treats as a jolly affair (not a sin) slavery and the subjugation of women and selling people into slavery. It allows the completer eradication of villages and every man, woman, and child if god so agrees. The Christians pick their sins. Most of the sins aren't even thought of sins in todays world and most Christians don't live their lives as if those sins were relevant. Why? Yet here you are going on about a specific thing that isn't really a sin, but you believe it should be thought of one today.
 I'll be blunt. This is not religion by cherry picking and not thinking about what these are. This is bigotry. Love is love. You are not here saying lies are ok if they save someone's life or protect someone. You are not saying that homosexuality and sex is fine if one is expressing love, and if not it isn't.


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tomp0228
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07:01 PM on 10/23/2011
I wish I could agree with yuor assertions, however, if you read the scriptures thoroughly, you'll find that you're the one cherry picking the bible. God has covered each of the supposed old testament sins in His new covenant. We can agree that some things seem strange to us, but we have to remember scripture tells us God's ways are not like our ways and our ways are not like God's. He says in Proverbs 1:7 that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. Unfortunatley, people of the present now seem to believe they know more than God. Have you ever wondered what you'll have to say to the one awesome God when you meet Him?
 The truth isn't always fun, but it's always the truth. My prayers are with you, friend.


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jaggeththewires
God said what? .
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05:11 PM on 10/23/2011
Tompo, We believe, we repent and we submit our will to His Jesus is the Christians Savior and Lord.A hom know He lives but he denies his own state of being and need for repentance and refuses to bow down. Yet for some strange reason he wants to be recognized as one of the called. Did He call us to remain in our sins? What Christ die for if we can skip any which a way into the kingdom?


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tomp0228
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92 Fans
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07:05 PM on 10/23/2011
You ask great questions. I hope all will see that it's not up to us to decide which commandments are right. My prayers are with you.


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jsaiditfirst
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43 Fans
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11:58 AM on 10/22/2011
Hmmmm........lets see, LGBT card, check!
 Unity with God card, che......what the..............hey, wheres my card? Oh what the HELL?
 Oh well, I doubt anyone will even ask me if I have that card anyway!


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dpavsek
Retired Economics Professor .
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11:37 AM on 10/22/2011
It is so sad that not one Roman Catholic made the list. Not surprising though, since the Vatican is so homophobic and any RC religious leader who ventures out in support of LGBT catholics is slapped down hard and fast.


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hopingheart
We can succeed only if we find a way together... .
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01:02 PM on 10/22/2011
Yes, sad. I could post the name and photo of a gay priest I admire, who's done good work, and lives openly with his partner, but he'd suffer the consequences.


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Loggietoad
Libertarian Combat Veteran .
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11:23 AM on 10/22/2011
This is so sad. So many misled, confused people.


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Lucy0808
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1195 Fans
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12:13 PM on 10/22/2011
Not "misled". They are people who preach Jesus' teachings of love, forgiveness, and helping the least among us. They are not confused, but are following the way.
 It is the bigots that are blind and miss the entire point. The blindness is astonishing.


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jaggeththewires
God said what? .
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12:57 PM on 10/22/2011
Heard Jesus said"Outside the gate are the dogs!"


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12:21 PM on 10/22/2011
As opposed to what, having a religion whose teaching is rooted in bigotry and homophobia?
 I spent the first half of my life attending a conservative Church, and the second half attending a mainline "progressive" Church. So much of conservative theology is rooted in hatred. They hate the communists (this was a big deal back in the 60s and 70s), they hate socialists, they hate abortion, they hate this and that. Their list on what is wrong was long, and varied from one conservative Church to another. Some were anti-Catholic, and all were anti-gay. The Southern Baptists supported slavery, Jim Crow laws, segregation, and fought against federal lynching laws, desegregation and civil rights. The bigotry, bitterness, and hatred I found among many conservatives became tiresome. I found great peace, joy, and love among in a mainline Church. The focus was no longer on why everyone is wrong, but what we can do to help others.


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Loggietoad
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03:08 PM on 10/22/2011
I guess we have different experiences


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ladycrisperfst
If I be lost, even so, come Lord Jesus. .
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08:26 AM on 10/22/2011
When God placed man then woman in the Garden for his helpmeet, so he would not be alone, God knew his commandment not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil would not be obeyed. Nonetheless, He allowed us to multiply and fill this earth even after He knew the power within ourselves not do evil would cause the chaos we now consist of. So let this Bishop, the like-minded, the atheist, the Satanist, the legalist, or any worldly-minded individual make their proclamations or put their beliefs into action that are not in the Will of God, He is still in control. Taking His Word in its entirety is something he will not force on anyone. However, the non-repentant will have a bill to pay, which in Jesus Christ, has become null and void.
 Matthew 22:35-40 King James Version
 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


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az0th
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09:34 AM on 10/22/2011
OK, you can step down from the pulpit now.


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ladycrisperfst
If I be lost, even so, come Lord Jesus. .
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06:17 PM on 10/22/2011
Peace.


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Lucy0808
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12:14 PM on 10/22/2011
These people listed in the article are doing just that.
 Jesus said to love, be compassionate and forgive, help the least among us, and give up all the material goods.


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ladycrisperfst
If I be lost, even so, come Lord Jesus. .
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01:57 PM on 10/22/2011
God before the foundation of the earth has decided how our works and faith in Him are justified. If a man or woman modifies what He has put in place, He will not have any part of them. Therefore, if we commit one transgression against His Word, it is as if we have committed them all. We will stand guilty before God and He will hold us accountable in judgment.


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We are the music makers... .
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05:55 AM on 10/22/2011
It's still comical how often people belittle another's belief or point of view, while demanding dogmatic adherance to their own. It does an atheist no good to simply say to a Christian, "there is no god", like all of a sudden the Christian will abandon what they firmly hold dear. And if the goslpel is foolishness to those that perish, Christians throwing out verses like they're blogging a tract won't achieve anything either. Quoting biblical texts out of context, which occurs prominently on both sides of the argument, is ignorant and disingenuous.


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Lucy0808
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12:17 PM on 10/22/2011
You are in error. They say "there is no objective proof of the gods". That is it. That is correct. If there was, people would believe.
 Noone denies that you have a subjective belief in gods. That is your faith.
 I am not an atheist.


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jaggeththewires
God said what? .
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01:06 PM on 10/22/2011
satan believes, in fact he knows, there is a God. He just dont want to serve Him. God delivered the children of Isreal out of Egypt with a mighty hand and those wretches erected a golden calf and paid homage to that! We are surrounded by the mighty workings of an Almighty Being and yet debate the majesty of what our eyes behold. There is no excuse for doubting God's existence!


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thereisonlyoneparty
more amazing than you .
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02:48 AM on 10/22/2011
I do not get it.
Why reject part of traditional religious views while accepting the rest?  I get that it is easier to used an established religion instead of making one's own, but this just creates bigger issues within a religion.
It is not really logical either.   if part of a religion is wrong, that does not really show that the rest is right.


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treven
We are the music makers... .
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05:59 AM on 10/22/2011
It's called the "Buffet Bible", and it's commonplace in American culture. Pick and choose what you like, leave the rest for someone else.


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StevenM
High School Chess Coach .
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08:39 AM on 10/22/2011
Re: "It's called the "Buffet Bible" ..."
 Any student of Christian and Jewish history would recognize that both groups have evolved over the centuries, just as the Bible itself evolved. There is nothing wrong with picking and choosing, it is only hypocrisy when one insists on condemning others when they don't follow certain passages, while one ignores other passages in the Bible.


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Lucy0808
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03:51 PM on 10/22/2011
Excuse me. The Bible was created in that way, too.
 It has a history of buffet and creating something long after the death of Jesus.


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StevenM
High School Chess Coach .
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07:37 AM on 10/22/2011
Re: "Why reject part of traditiona­l religious views while accepting the rest?"
 My religion tradition (Lutheran) has been constantly evolving. Christianity began as a Jewish sect, it evolved out of 1st century Judaisms (which evolved from older forms of Judaism in many ways, the synagogue is merely one example). Western Christianity continued to evolve into Catholicism (as Eastern Christianity evolved in a different direction). In the 16th century there was a major break between the old Catholicism and the emerging Protestant movements. But both the old Catholicism and Protestants continued to evolve in different directions from that point. The mainline Protestant Groups (including Lutherans) have continued to evolve.
 Conservative Christian groups like to pretend that their religious beliefs have always been the same, but any student of history knows this is merely an ideological myth with no substance behind it.


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tomp0228
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92 Fans
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09:40 AM on 10/22/2011
I can see from previous posts that you passionately argue that homosexuality is right, and that you've studied your bible. If you want to believe what you write, that's fine, however, as a Christian, you have a responsibility to tell the truth, in love, which is pretty hard to do at times. It is also true that Jesus accepts us as sinners, if only we will repent, and turn to Christ, regardless of what we've done.
 You and I both know that homosexuality is clearly wrong, as evidenced by numerous scriptures, yet you continue to push your agenda because of your personal choice to be gay, because thats what you want to do.
 If you so desire to live out of God's will, that's your decision, but to lead others astray through perverting what scripture says, might condemn many to a fiery grave that lasts for an eternity. The bible also makes it clear to those who would lead others astray.
 Write what you want, but you know the truth.


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Inspiring LGBT Religious Leaders

 By Paul Brandeis Raushenbush   Posted: 10/20/2011 1:45 pm EDT  |  Updated: 09/04/2013 12:21 pm EDT 





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Reflecting and shaping the culture in which it is embedded, religion has historically been hostile to LGBT-identified people and communities. However, over the last three decades more denominations, congregations and individuals have come out in support of honoring the full humanity of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered people. Today, hundreds, if not thousands, of religious communities are truly places of celebration, healing and hope for all people.
This initial list of 15 ground breaking individuals is just a sampling of the many LGBT religious leaders who have reclaimed religious traditions and communities. We hope that you will use the feature on this slideshow to add gay religious leaders who you feel should be included. Meanwhile, we thankfully acknowledge the ongoing contributions of these inspiring religious leaders.

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Rev. Patrick S. Cheng, Ph.D.

Rev. Patrick S. Cheng, Ph.D.: What Was the Real Sin of Sodom? 
The true sin of the Sodomites as described in the Bible has nothing to do with same-sex acts per se. Rather, the ancient Sodomites were punished by God for a far greater sins: radical inhospitality.

Rev. Patrick S. Cheng, Ph.D.

Rev. Patrick S. Cheng, Ph.D.: "Love The Sinner, Hate The Sin" And Other Modern-Day Heresies 
I believe those Christians who "hate" LGBT sexualities and gender expressions while allegedly "loving" LGBT people are nothing more than modern-day gnostics, who were condemned as heretical by early Church theologians.

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