AtheistNexus.org recent comments on discussion of forum members being liberal reposted in bold and italicized print

Why are so many atheists here so liberal?
Posted by Michael Pianko on June 27, 2015 at 10:35pm in Water Cooler
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The most frequent posters on this website are so over-liberal. Not that politics has much to do with the fact that there is no god and religion is non-sense.

In general:
Liberals hate the second amendment of the United States constitution, the right to own firearms. Now I am Jewish according to heritage, and what do you want me to do when the nazis or the ku klux klan (or anybody) break into my home?

Liberals like to create victims. They whine and complain that there are so many poor people. So rather than find a way to put them to work, they would rather steel from productive people and give it to the unproductive poor people so they can continue to not work.

Global warming or climate change is imaginary. The average world temperature has not risen enough to make any difference, and the earth always heals itself. I am against air pollution as much as anybody else and the world is not going to turn into hell any time soon.

As for discussions about the confederate flag, I don't necessarily care whether it is displayed or not, and what about jim crow laws and prejudice against black people in the North? A flag is merely a piece of fabric until you check the owners pulse and give them a lie detector test, you don't know what kind of person they are. Just suddenly replacing one piece of fabric with a different piece of fabric with a different design doesn't mean whoever displays the new fabric with the new design has the attitudes you want them to have, is not prejudiced against some people, and so on.

I'm a more of a libertarian conservative than the typical republican dogma, and a small government conservative.

Everything that can at all possibly be handled by private organizations should be handled by private organizations and not the government.

Abortion is fine with me.

I'm fine with homosexuals getting married in the sense that I don't want to be prejudiced against homosexuals. From my viewpoint as a typical person, marriage shouldn't exist because it was invented in order for religions to make you have to get permission from the religion before you engage in man-woman relationship behavior because the religion wants you to have children and teach your children your religion. And you shouldn't have to get permission from a government before you engage in a man-woman relationship and the government shouldn't be prejudice against homosexuals and there shouldn't be such a thing as benefits you get after you get a piece of paper that says you are married that you can't just get without a piece of paper that says you are married. A lot of atheists still think about man-woman relationships like religious people do.

Liberals hate capitalism. They despise people who do work and make a lot more money than them. The more money rich people pay in taxes, the less money they have left to hire people. Have you ever worked for a poor person? All taxes are theft or extortion.

I'm sure there are more ways liberals want to screw up society but I think this is enough for one discussion.


Tags: liberalism



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 Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on Monday

Reply to Michael Pianko, Sunday, June 28, 2015
Yes, we have freedom of speech and the nazi flag and the Virginia war flag certainly have a right to be flown. Does that mean I have to remain silent in the face of the insults? I will protest, even as they protest.
I am sorry your car insurance costs $4,319 every six months. Housing costs more and so does food. Fuel may be low now, but it is unstable in pricing. It is difficult to create a budget and stick to it as inflation eats up our income faster than workers get the cost of living raises.
Government takes our money and uses it for maintaining the largest military in the world. That needs to be challenged by the citizens. The cost of elections takes money out of citizens’ pockets and we can’t keep up with the super-rich who buy elections. Corporations being persons destroys a level playing field. All these need to be challenged by citizens.
You may call citizen protest “kvetching”. I call it using citizens’ freedom of speech. We need more protests and fewer wedge issues.
No, I do not advocate paying workers more because they need it, I advocate more because they deserve it. Why should I give to charities when the reason we have so many unemployed and underemployed and people in real financial need when the reason they are poor is because of systemic problems. If our government system responded to the needs of people, and the needs of our infrastructure and if wealthy paid their fair share in taxes, I would not have to carry the burden for those who do not care.
I buy from Mom and Pop stores because I get better service, higher quality merchandise and develop a relationship with them that I don’t get from box stores. I don’t do it because I feel guilty. Why should I feel guilty? I know Mom and Pop businesses can procure their products from Fair Trade and ecologically responsible sources.
If there is any guilt, it not mine.

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 Permalink Reply by tom sarbeck yesterday


...you could give to charities when you feel bad about poor people.
History tells how some of that went down. During the years between our 1787 Federal Convention and the revolution in France, some of that nation's nobility spoke of how they felt bad about their poor.
The Prince of Conti and the Counts of Artois, Conde, Bourbon  and Enghien: Let the people desist from their attacks on our  rights, for our rights are as ancient as the Monarchy and as  unchangeable. Let the people confine themselves to seeking to  reduce the taxation by which they are overburdened. If we  recognize among them citizens who are dear to us, we may from  generosity of mind consent to renouncing our fiscal  privileges and bear the burden of public taxation in equal measure.
(I found that about 30 years ago while studying French history. I saw no mention of what happened to those guys. A few years later they might have lost their heads.)
And here in the US  of A, our current oligarchs feel badly enough about the poor to want them to have jobs, health care, education, voting rights, and so much more.

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 Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo yesterday

Tom, we see happening now what happened then. Your quote was true of that group of wealthy as it is for our group of wealthy.

If we recognize among them citizens who are dear to us, we may from generosity of mind consent to renouncing our fiscal privileges and bear the burden of public taxation in equal measure.
If we recognize among them citizens who are dear to us, ... That is a mighty big IF. Therein lies the problem. For those workers who work hard, behave honestly, dependably, reliably, and come to a circumstance because of health problems, diseases, injuries, old age, and who cannot work any more, the oligarchs pay no heed.
We know what happened during the French Revolution.
The French Revolution, 1789–1799, overthrew the monarchy, established a republic, experienced violent periods of political turmoil, and finally ended in a dictatorship by Napoleon.
We have no monarch, but we do have an oligarchy or plutarchy, a "form of oligarchy and defines a society or a system ruled and dominated by the small minority of the wealthiest citizens."
What are the factors that result in a revolution? I think we know all too well, wealth concentrated in a few, poor working conditions. limited access to health care, education and retirement plans.
Right now, there are too many poor people who have been able to get food and housing assistances, and more are getting health care. If these subsidized programs end, so ends the plutarchy.
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 Permalink Reply by Michael Pianko on Monday
jay H is right.
 No, my boss does not yet recognize that all taxes are theft. I am smart enough to figure out things for myself. I have known that taxes are theft since I was 16 and I got my first job, as a library page. They told me I was going to get $6 an hour. They lied. They spent $6 on me. I did not get $6 per hour.
 Who determines what is free speech?? You do for yourself and not for anybody else. You can complain all you want short of banning specific flags, and so on.
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 Permalink Reply by Gerald Payne on Monday

Michael, everybody has to pay taxes, even you.
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 Permalink Reply by tom sarbeck yesterday

Gerald, Michael is saving money to buy an island where he can live by himself. The taxes he has to pay are delaying his departure.
Or, ....

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 Permalink Reply by Freethinker31 yesterday

No one likes to pay taxes Michael.....Without taxes, we would not have Medicare ,Social Security, Medicaid, paved roads, workers  comp., our military, and any other services  that the government provides, etc etc....In summary, all  working Americans  pay taxes so we can all enjoy the benefits  it provides.....
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 Permalink Reply by matthew greenberg yesterday

Michael, frankly, your being an atheist refutes my theory that atheists have higher intelligence than believers.  perhaps you just grew up in a non-religious Jewish household so it didn't take much brain power to rid yourself of dogmatic belief? 

the main point i want to make to you is that taxes are important.  super important.  how we spend tax dollars, and who pays how much, can and should be debated.  what cannot be debated is that our tax dollars allow the US to be the economic superpower it is.  our debt is the safest investment in the world, almost exclusively because we have the ability to pay for that debt because of our ability to tax.  you like a stable dollar, low interest rates, and strong financial market?  thank taxes.  without them, businesses would be unable to transport goods to the market.  no one would want our debt so we'd have to raise rates to lure investors.  our debt may be some $18 trillion yet the world still wants it b/c they know that we can raise taxes if we need to pay our debts. 

i agree with other posters who said that examining the evidence most often leads one to liberal policy prescriptions.  this may not always be the case (some tough love is sometimes the best course) but i for one can't think of too many libertarian or conservative ideas that have true merit.  this country has done a lot of self-sorting over the past few decades.  i feel as though this has continued to the point where most of the more intelligent people have sorted into liberalism while the less bright have become conservatives.  and while you may be the rare atheist conservative/libertarian, much of this sorting has to do with religion.  they're your tribe, like it or not. 
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 Permalink Reply by Michael Pianko yesterday
No matter how "necessary" the government programs you love so much are, theft is still theft and extortion is still extortion. There are various ways to pay for things without steeling. Toll roads, private charities, microchip in car that registers when you go past certain points, you pay for your own garbage collection, you invest your own money, which you would have if the government didn't steel it, and so on. If your family needs money, do you want them to ask you or just steel it?
 My family whet to a conservative congregation and for awhile I had to do what I thought was Orthodox Judaism In order to avoid feeling too guilty about myself due to the possibility of not doing what I thought I had to do. So what? And if you don't recognize that circumcision is wrong, you still follow part of judaism. The only purpose of a good government is to protect our basic safety needs. And the government doesn't do a good enough job at it yet.
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 Permalink Reply by Patricia yesterday

The word is steal, stealing, etc.
So you don't want to pay your share, huh. You want something for nothing....typical.
I KNEW this couldn't carry on without circumcision brought into it!!!!
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 Permalink Reply by matthew greenberg yesterday

yeah, that "steel" thing was killing me too.  he obviously didn't steal a great education.  not to be all grammar and spelling nazi but there were other issues two (too, just kidding). 
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 Permalink Reply by Freethinker31 yesterday

LOL  Patricia......I was thinking  the same.....:-)
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http://www.atheistnexus.org/forum/topics/why-are-so-many-atheists-here-so-liberal?xg_source=activity&id=2182797%3ATopic%3A2615391&page=4#comments








 










Why are so many atheists here so liberal?
Posted by Michael Pianko on June 27, 2015 at 10:35pm in Water Cooler
View Discussions
.



The most frequent posters on this website are so over-liberal. Not that politics has much to do with the fact that there is no god and religion is non-sense.

In general:
Liberals hate the second amendment of the United States constitution, the right to own firearms. Now I am Jewish according to heritage, and what do you want me to do when the nazis or the ku klux klan (or anybody) break into my home?

Liberals like to create victims. They whine and complain that there are so many poor people. So rather than find a way to put them to work, they would rather steel from productive people and give it to the unproductive poor people so they can continue to not work.

Global warming or climate change is imaginary. The average world temperature has not risen enough to make any difference, and the earth always heals itself. I am against air pollution as much as anybody else and the world is not going to turn into hell any time soon.

As for discussions about the confederate flag, I don't necessarily care whether it is displayed or not, and what about jim crow laws and prejudice against black people in the North? A flag is merely a piece of fabric until you check the owners pulse and give them a lie detector test, you don't know what kind of person they are. Just suddenly replacing one piece of fabric with a different piece of fabric with a different design doesn't mean whoever displays the new fabric with the new design has the attitudes you want them to have, is not prejudiced against some people, and so on.

I'm a more of a libertarian conservative than the typical republican dogma, and a small government conservative.

Everything that can at all possibly be handled by private organizations should be handled by private organizations and not the government.

Abortion is fine with me.

I'm fine with homosexuals getting married in the sense that I don't want to be prejudiced against homosexuals. From my viewpoint as a typical person, marriage shouldn't exist because it was invented in order for religions to make you have to get permission from the religion before you engage in man-woman relationship behavior because the religion wants you to have children and teach your children your religion. And you shouldn't have to get permission from a government before you engage in a man-woman relationship and the government shouldn't be prejudice against homosexuals and there shouldn't be such a thing as benefits you get after you get a piece of paper that says you are married that you can't just get without a piece of paper that says you are married. A lot of atheists still think about man-woman relationships like religious people do.

Liberals hate capitalism. They despise people who do work and make a lot more money than them. The more money rich people pay in taxes, the less money they have left to hire people. Have you ever worked for a poor person? All taxes are theft or extortion.

I'm sure there are more ways liberals want to screw up society but I think this is enough for one discussion.


Tags: liberalism



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 Permalink Reply by matthew greenberg yesterday

you speak as though you have no idea what the gov't actually does.  you also fail to think of the less fortunate, particularly the young and the elderly who largely benefit from our social welfare programs.  i'd rather random grannies end up in a long term care facility then have them die homeless.  and i'd rather a child of some inner city welfare recipient not be punished for their parents' sins.  further, i prefer my meat inspected, not to have to worry about a neighbor who thinks garbage makes wonderful fertilizer, airplanes to avoid collision, restaurants that need to keep roaches out of my food, polluters from spoiling our water, etc etc etc.  i could go on and on. 

i can see why the idea of "small gov't" is appealing to some.  but this isn't a small country, and its needs are great. 
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 Permalink Reply by Michael Pianko yesterday
Social welfare programs should not exist. You should not have to pay your fair share because the concept of paying your fair share shoud not exist and taxes should not exist either. There are plenty of ways to raise money for the important things and the rest either can be provided by private organizations or it doesn't need to exist. Liberals have this constant obsession with poor people and it is totally immoral to just extort money from productive people and invent reasons why you have to steel it. Liberals want everybody to be dependent on a government.
 If you don't trust that your meat has been inspected right, then buy it from somebody else. If you don't like one garbge service, pick another company. Freedom is all about choices. Liberals always want to take away our freedom to make the choices we want.
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 Permalink Reply by matthew greenberg yesterday

"there are plenty of ways to raise money for the important things..."

no, no there aren't.  we tried that.  it didn't work.  the massive wave of prosperity for many in this country didn't come about until after the New Deal.  prior to that was the Guilded Age.  if you haven't heard of it look it up. 

private charities and churches don't come close to meeting the needs of society's worst off.  again, our worst off are typically children and the elderly.  you sound like a monster.  when you examine their positions most libertarians do. 
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 Permalink Reply by Freethinker31 23 hours ago

Michael, I hope you never find yourself in need of any form of government assistance....Social security  has disability insurance , when someone can not work again due to a severe illness or physical injury.....If you ever get fired from your job, workers  compensation can hold you over for awhile, until you find another.......When you do collect your social security after you retire, your FICA taxes that you paid in, over the years, makes it possible.....You use services  every day, paid for by the taxpayer. If you refuse to pay your fair share, then you are a moocher....Is that what you want to be?
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 Permalink Reply by Michael Pianko 23 hours ago
I know what the government does and I don't want the government to do it:
 The national aeronautics and space administration
 The department of housing and urban affairs,
 The department of education,
 Medicare
 Medicade
 Food stamps/ SNAP
 Roads (better handled by private organizations),
 The environmental "protection" agency,
 The department of energy,
 The department of agriculture,
 The food and drug administration (if you don't trust one certification, you pick another brand you want to trust!)
 Licensing of health care providers (artificially limits the number of providers, increasing costs. If you don't trust one doctor, you pick another one!)
 The drain commission (think private organizations)
 The federal reserve
 Currency in general (it's better for a few private organizations to compete for contracts to provide currency, and then different businesses and individuals will pick and choose which currency they want to accept)
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 Permalink Reply by matthew greenberg 23 hours ago

i see the problem now.  you don't know anything.  no need to continue to debate someone so clueless.  seriously, if the idea of a currency upsets you then you might as well go back to the caves.  perhaps we should eliminate language since body language is sufficient.  ugh!!!!
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 Permalink Reply by Bertold Brautigan 23 hours ago

You are a religious fanatic and the dream of the perfect free market is your god. Somewhere along the line you have been well and truly brainwashed.
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 Permalink Reply by Loren Miller 23 hours ago

Michael, your cluelessness borders on the criminal. Do you seriously suppose that services such as police and fire departments can be trusted to the private sector? If someone can pay X for a service, there is likely someone else willing to pay 2X or 3X for priority, which could easily cause a vacuum where support is needed at a critical time. If you think public services are corrupt now, imagine how bad they would be when the sole motivating factor is the highest bidder. And what of those who cannot pony up the costs? Are they just supposed to tough it out, or are they due the same level or service because they have the same level of citizenship as everyone else? If the Citizens United and McCutcheon decisions were disastrous for the election process, extend that same effect to society in general, then imagine the result. The riots of 1795 France after the revolution would be a tea party by comparison, especially with the current 1% driving the action.
 I do remember one fictionalized instance where such a libertarian paradise was imagined ... by Isaac Asimov in his Robot novels, The Robots of Dawn and Foundation and Earth, where the Spacers establish their own worlds with vast, individualized estates, one to each Spacer, with virtually no interaction between residents and each resident served by innumerable robots. A wet dream for those of privilege and no place at all for those without such empowerment.
 The current system is light-years from perfect, but it is far better than one driven so utterly by the profit motive that considerations of duty or service or obligation to the population at large are lost to the promise of gain. It may be that not everyone is concerned for the welfare of all, but I am sufficiently concerned about it to want to see as evenhanded an approach by those tasked with maintaining the safety of all as is humanly possible in the here and now.
 The whole concept of society is built on the concept of respect both for the individual and the whole, a delicate and nuanced compromise and balance which respects the integrity of the person and the collective. If the society is so egalitarian that no one person or sub-group can sway a significant portion of the whole and those who serve it, there is little likelihood of problem. You and I both know that is not the case. You want to assume a "private sector" which is beneficent; I am way too old and experienced to subscribe to such a naive premise.
 Somehow or other, privilege must be counterbalanced for the sake of those who lack privilege. Our current system at least attempts to do that. Yours doesn't even try.
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 Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo 21 hours ago

Loren, The thing that frightens me is the numbers of people who think this way, even when it is not in their best interests. I agree, there is an element of criminality in this way of thinking and those who vomit such thinking have no idea what disease they propagate. It is like cholera of the mind, highly infectious and deadly to the innocent as well as those who spread such hubristic economic theory.
Sadly, this kind of thinking hurts the most vulnerable among us. The members of this string give reasonable caution to the probable unintended consequences of this philosophy and history offers many examples of what happens to cultures with these attitudes.
Your strong statement will probably land on a closed mind. For those of us who have been through the ups and downs of different political thought can see what can happen. I comment you, Loren, for your strength of ideas and power of writing.

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 Permalink Reply by tom sarbeck 21 hours ago

Hey folks, let's remember that the First Amendment protects Michael's right to state his views, and even his right to seek allies for his cause.
We all know he will find few, if any, allies here.


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 Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo 20 hours ago

I just had an image of 7:00 AM garbage trucks coming into the neighborhood, one from Company A with loud noises, strong smells of diesel as it picked up garbage from one house. Right behind it was Company B going to a different house on the street, making more noise and smells. Companies C, D, E, and F came along throughout the day to pick up garbage from different houses. One house stands out, however. Garbage piles up on the front porch, the lawn, driveway, and garage. No truck stops at this house. They don't have a private company pick up their trash, they just let it pile up. So much for private garbage pickup!
Or a fire starts in the kitchen, and there is no private fire company with fire protection for that house.

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 Permalink Reply by Michael Pianko 3 hours ago
Having people's garbage picked up does not require a government monopoly on garbage collection. You would be smart enough to pick your own garbage collection service. You should get a choice of who provides your services and getting the services you want does not have to require a government monopoly on providing those services. If somebody doesn't keep their property free of garbage or maintained to some minimum standard than the home-owners association or police or somebody could give the person a ticket or worse depending or what people vote on. You seem to want a powerful government hanging over your head like a parent or a god, "guaranteeing" that everything will go your way. And taxes entail extortion, or threats of violence against people who wouldn't want to pay the taxes. The extortion or theft or threats of violence morally negates the so called benefits of any services paid for by taxes. People also have this idea that making a profit is evil and this idea is false. Nobody goes to work just to help others, or people would all work for free. You work so you can make as much money as possible.
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Why are so many atheists here so liberal?
Posted by Michael Pianko on June 27, 2015 at 10:35pm in Water Cooler
View Discussions
.



The most frequent posters on this website are so over-liberal. Not that politics has much to do with the fact that there is no god and religion is non-sense.

In general:
Liberals hate the second amendment of the United States constitution, the right to own firearms. Now I am Jewish according to heritage, and what do you want me to do when the nazis or the ku klux klan (or anybody) break into my home?

Liberals like to create victims. They whine and complain that there are so many poor people. So rather than find a way to put them to work, they would rather steel from productive people and give it to the unproductive poor people so they can continue to not work.

Global warming or climate change is imaginary. The average world temperature has not risen enough to make any difference, and the earth always heals itself. I am against air pollution as much as anybody else and the world is not going to turn into hell any time soon.

As for discussions about the confederate flag, I don't necessarily care whether it is displayed or not, and what about jim crow laws and prejudice against black people in the North? A flag is merely a piece of fabric until you check the owners pulse and give them a lie detector test, you don't know what kind of person they are. Just suddenly replacing one piece of fabric with a different piece of fabric with a different design doesn't mean whoever displays the new fabric with the new design has the attitudes you want them to have, is not prejudiced against some people, and so on.

I'm a more of a libertarian conservative than the typical republican dogma, and a small government conservative.

Everything that can at all possibly be handled by private organizations should be handled by private organizations and not the government.

Abortion is fine with me.

I'm fine with homosexuals getting married in the sense that I don't want to be prejudiced against homosexuals. From my viewpoint as a typical person, marriage shouldn't exist because it was invented in order for religions to make you have to get permission from the religion before you engage in man-woman relationship behavior because the religion wants you to have children and teach your children your religion. And you shouldn't have to get permission from a government before you engage in a man-woman relationship and the government shouldn't be prejudice against homosexuals and there shouldn't be such a thing as benefits you get after you get a piece of paper that says you are married that you can't just get without a piece of paper that says you are married. A lot of atheists still think about man-woman relationships like religious people do.

Liberals hate capitalism. They despise people who do work and make a lot more money than them. The more money rich people pay in taxes, the less money they have left to hire people. Have you ever worked for a poor person? All taxes are theft or extortion.

I'm sure there are more ways liberals want to screw up society but I think this is enough for one discussion.


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 Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo 1 hour ago

Reply to Michael Pianko, Tuesday, June 30, 2015
In the name of efficiency, economy, and effectiveness, it makes sense to have one truck come by on a regular basis to collect garbage. Having the noise and pollution of more than one collection truck, a week seems unnecessary. Living in a civil society requires participating in activities that reduce traffic even if the company is not one of a person’s choice. One can call it government monopoly on garbage collection if one wants. I call it being frugal, effective and efficient.
If one does not like the official garbage collectors, one can go to city council and register a complaint. If the city council does not listen or does not take action upon one’s complaint, then one can take part in the next election offering a candidate that hears and understands one’s issues.
Yes, I agree, if homeowners  do not keep their property free of garbage and maintain some modicum of care, a complaint can be filed with the city council or police department. I had a problem with my next door neighbor and his garbage, and we had weekly pick-up by the city designated company. My neighbor was a lawyer and thought he could bamboozle me with his legalize. The police took care of the problem for me.
I perceive government as an asset, a friend, a resource for solving problems. They are my friends unless and until they demonstrate that they are not worthy of my trust. When that happens, I have recourse that works at the local level, not so much at the state and national level. However, I am a good community organizer and know how to replace people in office. I have done it more than once.
I am not interested in a god or parent taking care of me. I am interested in getting on with my business and not having to tend to some problems that can effectively and efficiently be handled by my government.
Some people call taxes extortion. I do not! I perceive taxes as the cost of living in a civilized society. If I can afford to live in the city, then I pay taxes required of me for services rendered.
Making a profit is not evil, it is what work is all about! There is a demand for some goods or services, I provide them, I expect to earn a profit. If the gain is not high enough, I stop offering the product.
I laughed when President Reagan called attention to a Mexican woman who built an excellent business by making and selling tacos off a van. In fact, she made a fortune and contributed significantly to Reagan’s campaigns. What Reagan didn’t tell was the horrid wages she paid her illegal immigrants to make that fortune.
There seems to be a difference between liberals and libertarians. Liberals care about people, especially vulnerable people. Libertarians tend to care about making profits off the backs of others. People don’t make fortunes by producing goods and services; they make money off the labor of others and paying non-living wages.
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 Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo 12 hours ago

Tom, I very much appreciate your words of caution to remember the First Amendment in relation to Michael. I also recognize to use valid and reliable rebuttals in a discussion. I know this is not a place for debate, however when a statement occurs, I and others have a right and a responsibility to respond with appropriate words and attitudes.
Your caution provides an important element that we can learn and practice. Thanks.
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AtheistNexus.org recent comments on dicussion of forum members being liberal

Why are so many atheists here so liberal?
Posted by Michael Pianko on June 27, 2015 at 10:35pm in Water Cooler
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The most frequent posters on this website are so over-liberal. Not that politics has much to do with the fact that there is no god and religion is non-sense.

In general:
Liberals hate the second amendment of the United States constitution, the right to own firearms. Now I am Jewish according to heritage, and what do you want me to do when the nazis or the ku klux klan (or anybody) break into my home?

Liberals like to create victims. They whine and complain that there are so many poor people. So rather than find a way to put them to work, they would rather steel from productive people and give it to the unproductive poor people so they can continue to not work.

Global warming or climate change is imaginary. The average world temperature has not risen enough to make any difference, and the earth always heals itself. I am against air pollution as much as anybody else and the world is not going to turn into hell any time soon.

As for discussions about the confederate flag, I don't necessarily care whether it is displayed or not, and what about jim crow laws and prejudice against black people in the North? A flag is merely a piece of fabric until you check the owners pulse and give them a lie detector test, you don't know what kind of person they are. Just suddenly replacing one piece of fabric with a different piece of fabric with a different design doesn't mean whoever displays the new fabric with the new design has the attitudes you want them to have, is not prejudiced against some people, and so on.

I'm a more of a libertarian conservative than the typical republican dogma, and a small government conservative.

Everything that can at all possibly be handled by private organizations should be handled by private organizations and not the government.

Abortion is fine with me.

I'm fine with homosexuals getting married in the sense that I don't want to be prejudiced against homosexuals. From my viewpoint as a typical person, marriage shouldn't exist because it was invented in order for religions to make you have to get permission from the religion before you engage in man-woman relationship behavior because the religion wants you to have children and teach your children your religion. And you shouldn't have to get permission from a government before you engage in a man-woman relationship and the government shouldn't be prejudice against homosexuals and there shouldn't be such a thing as benefits you get after you get a piece of paper that says you are married that you can't just get without a piece of paper that says you are married. A lot of atheists still think about man-woman relationships like religious people do.

Liberals hate capitalism. They despise people who do work and make a lot more money than them. The more money rich people pay in taxes, the less money they have left to hire people. Have you ever worked for a poor person? All taxes are theft or extortion.

I'm sure there are more ways liberals want to screw up society but I think this is enough for one discussion.


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 Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo on Monday

Reply to Michael Pianko, Sunday, June 28, 2015
Yes, we have freedom of speech and the nazi flag and the Virginia war flag certainly have a right to be flown. Does that mean I have to remain silent in the face of the insults? I will protest, even as they protest.
I am sorry your car insurance costs $4,319 every six months. Housing costs more and so does food. Fuel may be low now, but it is unstable in pricing. It is difficult to create a budget and stick to it as inflation eats up our income faster than workers get the cost of living raises.
Government takes our money and uses it for maintaining the largest military in the world. That needs to be challenged by the citizens. The cost of elections takes money out of citizens’ pockets and we can’t keep up with the super-rich who buy elections. Corporations being persons destroys a level playing field. All these need to be challenged by citizens.
You may call citizen protest “kvetching”. I call it using citizens’ freedom of speech. We need more protests and fewer wedge issues.
No, I do not advocate paying workers more because they need it, I advocate more because they deserve it. Why should I give to charities when the reason we have so many unemployed and underemployed and people in real financial need when the reason they are poor is because of systemic problems. If our government system responded to the needs of people, and the needs of our infrastructure and if wealthy paid their fair share in taxes, I would not have to carry the burden for those who do not care.
I buy from Mom and Pop stores because I get better service, higher quality merchandise and develop a relationship with them that I don’t get from box stores. I don’t do it because I feel guilty. Why should I feel guilty? I know Mom and Pop businesses can procure their products from Fair Trade and ecologically responsible sources.
If there is any guilt, it not mine.

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 Permalink Reply by tom sarbeck yesterday


...you could give to charities when you feel bad about poor people.
History tells how some of that went down. During the years between our 1787 Federal Convention and the revolution in France, some of that nation's nobility spoke of how they felt bad about their poor.
The Prince of Conti and the Counts of Artois, Conde, Bourbon  and Enghien: Let the people desist from their attacks on our  rights, for our rights are as ancient as the Monarchy and as  unchangeable. Let the people confine themselves to seeking to  reduce the taxation by which they are overburdened. If we  recognize among them citizens who are dear to us, we may from  generosity of mind consent to renouncing our fiscal  privileges and bear the burden of public taxation in equal measure.
(I found that about 30 years ago while studying French history. I saw no mention of what happened to those guys. A few years later they might have lost their heads.)
And here in the US  of A, our current oligarchs feel badly enough about the poor to want them to have jobs, health care, education, voting rights, and so much more.

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 Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo yesterday

Tom, we see happening now what happened then. Your quote was true of that group of wealthy as it is for our group of wealthy.

If we recognize among them citizens who are dear to us, we may from generosity of mind consent to renouncing our fiscal privileges and bear the burden of public taxation in equal measure.
If we recognize among them citizens who are dear to us, ... That is a mighty big IF. Therein lies the problem. For those workers who work hard, behave honestly, dependably, reliably, and come to a circumstance because of health problems, diseases, injuries, old age, and who cannot work any more, the oligarchs pay no heed.
We know what happened during the French Revolution.
The French Revolution, 1789–1799, overthrew the monarchy, established a republic, experienced violent periods of political turmoil, and finally ended in a dictatorship by Napoleon.
We have no monarch, but we do have an oligarchy or plutarchy, a "form of oligarchy and defines a society or a system ruled and dominated by the small minority of the wealthiest citizens."
What are the factors that result in a revolution? I think we know all too well, wealth concentrated in a few, poor working conditions. limited access to health care, education and retirement plans.
Right now, there are too many poor people who have been able to get food and housing assistances, and more are getting health care. If these subsidized programs end, so ends the plutarchy.
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 Permalink Reply by Michael Pianko on Monday
jay H is right.
 No, my boss does not yet recognize that all taxes are theft. I am smart enough to figure out things for myself. I have known that taxes are theft since I was 16 and I got my first job, as a library page. They told me I was going to get $6 an hour. They lied. They spent $6 on me. I did not get $6 per hour.
 Who determines what is free speech?? You do for yourself and not for anybody else. You can complain all you want short of banning specific flags, and so on.
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 Permalink Reply by Gerald Payne on Monday

Michael, everybody has to pay taxes, even you.
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 Permalink Reply by tom sarbeck yesterday

Gerald, Michael is saving money to buy an island where he can live by himself. The taxes he has to pay are delaying his departure.
Or, ....

▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Freethinker31 yesterday

No one likes to pay taxes Michael.....Without taxes, we would not have Medicare ,Social Security, Medicaid, paved roads, workers  comp., our military, and any other services  that the government provides, etc etc....In summary, all  working Americans  pay taxes so we can all enjoy the benefits  it provides.....
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 Permalink Reply by matthew greenberg yesterday

Michael, frankly, your being an atheist refutes my theory that atheists have higher intelligence than believers.  perhaps you just grew up in a non-religious Jewish household so it didn't take much brain power to rid yourself of dogmatic belief? 

the main point i want to make to you is that taxes are important.  super important.  how we spend tax dollars, and who pays how much, can and should be debated.  what cannot be debated is that our tax dollars allow the US to be the economic superpower it is.  our debt is the safest investment in the world, almost exclusively because we have the ability to pay for that debt because of our ability to tax.  you like a stable dollar, low interest rates, and strong financial market?  thank taxes.  without them, businesses would be unable to transport goods to the market.  no one would want our debt so we'd have to raise rates to lure investors.  our debt may be some $18 trillion yet the world still wants it b/c they know that we can raise taxes if we need to pay our debts. 

i agree with other posters who said that examining the evidence most often leads one to liberal policy prescriptions.  this may not always be the case (some tough love is sometimes the best course) but i for one can't think of too many libertarian or conservative ideas that have true merit.  this country has done a lot of self-sorting over the past few decades.  i feel as though this has continued to the point where most of the more intelligent people have sorted into liberalism while the less bright have become conservatives.  and while you may be the rare atheist conservative/libertarian, much of this sorting has to do with religion.  they're your tribe, like it or not. 
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 Permalink Reply by Michael Pianko yesterday
No matter how "necessary" the government programs you love so much are, theft is still theft and extortion is still extortion. There are various ways to pay for things without steeling. Toll roads, private charities, microchip in car that registers when you go past certain points, you pay for your own garbage collection, you invest your own money, which you would have if the government didn't steel it, and so on. If your family needs money, do you want them to ask you or just steel it?
 My family whet to a conservative congregation and for awhile I had to do what I thought was Orthodox Judaism In order to avoid feeling too guilty about myself due to the possibility of not doing what I thought I had to do. So what? And if you don't recognize that circumcision is wrong, you still follow part of judaism. The only purpose of a good government is to protect our basic safety needs. And the government doesn't do a good enough job at it yet.
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 Permalink Reply by Patricia yesterday

The word is steal, stealing, etc.
So you don't want to pay your share, huh. You want something for nothing....typical.
I KNEW this couldn't carry on without circumcision brought into it!!!!
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 Permalink Reply by matthew greenberg yesterday

yeah, that "steel" thing was killing me too.  he obviously didn't steal a great education.  not to be all grammar and spelling nazi but there were other issues two (too, just kidding). 
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 Permalink Reply by Freethinker31 yesterday

LOL  Patricia......I was thinking  the same.....:-)
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Why are so many atheists here so liberal?
Posted by Michael Pianko on June 27, 2015 at 10:35pm in Water Cooler
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The most frequent posters on this website are so over-liberal. Not that politics has much to do with the fact that there is no god and religion is non-sense.

In general:
Liberals hate the second amendment of the United States constitution, the right to own firearms. Now I am Jewish according to heritage, and what do you want me to do when the nazis or the ku klux klan (or anybody) break into my home?

Liberals like to create victims. They whine and complain that there are so many poor people. So rather than find a way to put them to work, they would rather steel from productive people and give it to the unproductive poor people so they can continue to not work.

Global warming or climate change is imaginary. The average world temperature has not risen enough to make any difference, and the earth always heals itself. I am against air pollution as much as anybody else and the world is not going to turn into hell any time soon.

As for discussions about the confederate flag, I don't necessarily care whether it is displayed or not, and what about jim crow laws and prejudice against black people in the North? A flag is merely a piece of fabric until you check the owners pulse and give them a lie detector test, you don't know what kind of person they are. Just suddenly replacing one piece of fabric with a different piece of fabric with a different design doesn't mean whoever displays the new fabric with the new design has the attitudes you want them to have, is not prejudiced against some people, and so on.

I'm a more of a libertarian conservative than the typical republican dogma, and a small government conservative.

Everything that can at all possibly be handled by private organizations should be handled by private organizations and not the government.

Abortion is fine with me.

I'm fine with homosexuals getting married in the sense that I don't want to be prejudiced against homosexuals. From my viewpoint as a typical person, marriage shouldn't exist because it was invented in order for religions to make you have to get permission from the religion before you engage in man-woman relationship behavior because the religion wants you to have children and teach your children your religion. And you shouldn't have to get permission from a government before you engage in a man-woman relationship and the government shouldn't be prejudice against homosexuals and there shouldn't be such a thing as benefits you get after you get a piece of paper that says you are married that you can't just get without a piece of paper that says you are married. A lot of atheists still think about man-woman relationships like religious people do.

Liberals hate capitalism. They despise people who do work and make a lot more money than them. The more money rich people pay in taxes, the less money they have left to hire people. Have you ever worked for a poor person? All taxes are theft or extortion.

I'm sure there are more ways liberals want to screw up society but I think this is enough for one discussion.


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 Permalink Reply by matthew greenberg yesterday

you speak as though you have no idea what the gov't actually does.  you also fail to think of the less fortunate, particularly the young and the elderly who largely benefit from our social welfare programs.  i'd rather random grannies end up in a long term care facility then have them die homeless.  and i'd rather a child of some inner city welfare recipient not be punished for their parents' sins.  further, i prefer my meat inspected, not to have to worry about a neighbor who thinks garbage makes wonderful fertilizer, airplanes to avoid collision, restaurants that need to keep roaches out of my food, polluters from spoiling our water, etc etc etc.  i could go on and on. 

i can see why the idea of "small gov't" is appealing to some.  but this isn't a small country, and its needs are great. 
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 Permalink Reply by Michael Pianko yesterday
Social welfare programs should not exist. You should not have to pay your fair share because the concept of paying your fair share shoud not exist and taxes should not exist either. There are plenty of ways to raise money for the important things and the rest either can be provided by private organizations or it doesn't need to exist. Liberals have this constant obsession with poor people and it is totally immoral to just extort money from productive people and invent reasons why you have to steel it. Liberals want everybody to be dependent on a government.
 If you don't trust that your meat has been inspected right, then buy it from somebody else. If you don't like one garbge service, pick another company. Freedom is all about choices. Liberals always want to take away our freedom to make the choices we want.
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 Permalink Reply by matthew greenberg yesterday

"there are plenty of ways to raise money for the important things..."

no, no there aren't.  we tried that.  it didn't work.  the massive wave of prosperity for many in this country didn't come about until after the New Deal.  prior to that was the Guilded Age.  if you haven't heard of it look it up. 

private charities and churches don't come close to meeting the needs of society's worst off.  again, our worst off are typically children and the elderly.  you sound like a monster.  when you examine their positions most libertarians do. 
▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Freethinker31 23 hours ago

Michael, I hope you never find yourself in need of any form of government assistance....Social security  has disability insurance , when someone can not work again due to a severe illness or physical injury.....If you ever get fired from your job, workers  compensation can hold you over for awhile, until you find another.......When you do collect your social security after you retire, your FICA taxes that you paid in, over the years, makes it possible.....You use services  every day, paid for by the taxpayer. If you refuse to pay your fair share, then you are a moocher....Is that what you want to be?
▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Michael Pianko 23 hours ago
I know what the government does and I don't want the government to do it:
 The national aeronautics and space administration
 The department of housing and urban affairs,
 The department of education,
 Medicare
 Medicade
 Food stamps/ SNAP
 Roads (better handled by private organizations),
 The environmental "protection" agency,
 The department of energy,
 The department of agriculture,
 The food and drug administration (if you don't trust one certification, you pick another brand you want to trust!)
 Licensing of health care providers (artificially limits the number of providers, increasing costs. If you don't trust one doctor, you pick another one!)
 The drain commission (think private organizations)
 The federal reserve
 Currency in general (it's better for a few private organizations to compete for contracts to provide currency, and then different businesses and individuals will pick and choose which currency they want to accept)
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 Permalink Reply by matthew greenberg 23 hours ago

i see the problem now.  you don't know anything.  no need to continue to debate someone so clueless.  seriously, if the idea of a currency upsets you then you might as well go back to the caves.  perhaps we should eliminate language since body language is sufficient.  ugh!!!!
▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Bertold Brautigan 23 hours ago

You are a religious fanatic and the dream of the perfect free market is your god. Somewhere along the line you have been well and truly brainwashed.
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 Permalink Reply by Loren Miller 23 hours ago

Michael, your cluelessness borders on the criminal. Do you seriously suppose that services such as police and fire departments can be trusted to the private sector? If someone can pay X for a service, there is likely someone else willing to pay 2X or 3X for priority, which could easily cause a vacuum where support is needed at a critical time. If you think public services are corrupt now, imagine how bad they would be when the sole motivating factor is the highest bidder. And what of those who cannot pony up the costs? Are they just supposed to tough it out, or are they due the same level or service because they have the same level of citizenship as everyone else? If the Citizens United and McCutcheon decisions were disastrous for the election process, extend that same effect to society in general, then imagine the result. The riots of 1795 France after the revolution would be a tea party by comparison, especially with the current 1% driving the action.
 I do remember one fictionalized instance where such a libertarian paradise was imagined ... by Isaac Asimov in his Robot novels, The Robots of Dawn and Foundation and Earth, where the Spacers establish their own worlds with vast, individualized estates, one to each Spacer, with virtually no interaction between residents and each resident served by innumerable robots. A wet dream for those of privilege and no place at all for those without such empowerment.
 The current system is light-years from perfect, but it is far better than one driven so utterly by the profit motive that considerations of duty or service or obligation to the population at large are lost to the promise of gain. It may be that not everyone is concerned for the welfare of all, but I am sufficiently concerned about it to want to see as evenhanded an approach by those tasked with maintaining the safety of all as is humanly possible in the here and now.
 The whole concept of society is built on the concept of respect both for the individual and the whole, a delicate and nuanced compromise and balance which respects the integrity of the person and the collective. If the society is so egalitarian that no one person or sub-group can sway a significant portion of the whole and those who serve it, there is little likelihood of problem. You and I both know that is not the case. You want to assume a "private sector" which is beneficent; I am way too old and experienced to subscribe to such a naive premise.
 Somehow or other, privilege must be counterbalanced for the sake of those who lack privilege. Our current system at least attempts to do that. Yours doesn't even try.
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 Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo 21 hours ago

Loren, The thing that frightens me is the numbers of people who think this way, even when it is not in their best interests. I agree, there is an element of criminality in this way of thinking and those who vomit such thinking have no idea what disease they propagate. It is like cholera of the mind, highly infectious and deadly to the innocent as well as those who spread such hubristic economic theory.
Sadly, this kind of thinking hurts the most vulnerable among us. The members of this string give reasonable caution to the probable unintended consequences of this philosophy and history offers many examples of what happens to cultures with these attitudes.
Your strong statement will probably land on a closed mind. For those of us who have been through the ups and downs of different political thought can see what can happen. I comment you, Loren, for your strength of ideas and power of writing.

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 Permalink Reply by tom sarbeck 21 hours ago

Hey folks, let's remember that the First Amendment protects Michael's right to state his views, and even his right to seek allies for his cause.
We all know he will find few, if any, allies here.


▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo 20 hours ago

I just had an image of 7:00 AM garbage trucks coming into the neighborhood, one from Company A with loud noises, strong smells of diesel as it picked up garbage from one house. Right behind it was Company B going to a different house on the street, making more noise and smells. Companies C, D, E, and F came along throughout the day to pick up garbage from different houses. One house stands out, however. Garbage piles up on the front porch, the lawn, driveway, and garage. No truck stops at this house. They don't have a private company pick up their trash, they just let it pile up. So much for private garbage pickup!
Or a fire starts in the kitchen, and there is no private fire company with fire protection for that house.

▶ Reply

 Permalink Reply by Michael Pianko 3 hours ago
Having people's garbage picked up does not require a government monopoly on garbage collection. You would be smart enough to pick your own garbage collection service. You should get a choice of who provides your services and getting the services you want does not have to require a government monopoly on providing those services. If somebody doesn't keep their property free of garbage or maintained to some minimum standard than the home-owners association or police or somebody could give the person a ticket or worse depending or what people vote on. You seem to want a powerful government hanging over your head like a parent or a god, "guaranteeing" that everything will go your way. And taxes entail extortion, or threats of violence against people who wouldn't want to pay the taxes. The extortion or theft or threats of violence morally negates the so called benefits of any services paid for by taxes. People also have this idea that making a profit is evil and this idea is false. Nobody goes to work just to help others, or people would all work for free. You work so you can make as much money as possible.
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Why are so many atheists here so liberal?
Posted by Michael Pianko on June 27, 2015 at 10:35pm in Water Cooler
View Discussions
.



The most frequent posters on this website are so over-liberal. Not that politics has much to do with the fact that there is no god and religion is non-sense.

In general:
Liberals hate the second amendment of the United States constitution, the right to own firearms. Now I am Jewish according to heritage, and what do you want me to do when the nazis or the ku klux klan (or anybody) break into my home?

Liberals like to create victims. They whine and complain that there are so many poor people. So rather than find a way to put them to work, they would rather steel from productive people and give it to the unproductive poor people so they can continue to not work.

Global warming or climate change is imaginary. The average world temperature has not risen enough to make any difference, and the earth always heals itself. I am against air pollution as much as anybody else and the world is not going to turn into hell any time soon.

As for discussions about the confederate flag, I don't necessarily care whether it is displayed or not, and what about jim crow laws and prejudice against black people in the North? A flag is merely a piece of fabric until you check the owners pulse and give them a lie detector test, you don't know what kind of person they are. Just suddenly replacing one piece of fabric with a different piece of fabric with a different design doesn't mean whoever displays the new fabric with the new design has the attitudes you want them to have, is not prejudiced against some people, and so on.

I'm a more of a libertarian conservative than the typical republican dogma, and a small government conservative.

Everything that can at all possibly be handled by private organizations should be handled by private organizations and not the government.

Abortion is fine with me.

I'm fine with homosexuals getting married in the sense that I don't want to be prejudiced against homosexuals. From my viewpoint as a typical person, marriage shouldn't exist because it was invented in order for religions to make you have to get permission from the religion before you engage in man-woman relationship behavior because the religion wants you to have children and teach your children your religion. And you shouldn't have to get permission from a government before you engage in a man-woman relationship and the government shouldn't be prejudice against homosexuals and there shouldn't be such a thing as benefits you get after you get a piece of paper that says you are married that you can't just get without a piece of paper that says you are married. A lot of atheists still think about man-woman relationships like religious people do.

Liberals hate capitalism. They despise people who do work and make a lot more money than them. The more money rich people pay in taxes, the less money they have left to hire people. Have you ever worked for a poor person? All taxes are theft or extortion.

I'm sure there are more ways liberals want to screw up society but I think this is enough for one discussion.


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 Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo 1 hour ago

Reply to Michael Pianko, Tuesday, June 30, 2015
In the name of efficiency, economy, and effectiveness, it makes sense to have one truck come by on a regular basis to collect garbage. Having the noise and pollution of more than one collection truck, a week seems unnecessary. Living in a civil society requires participating in activities that reduce traffic even if the company is not one of a person’s choice. One can call it government monopoly on garbage collection if one wants. I call it being frugal, effective and efficient.
If one does not like the official garbage collectors, one can go to city council and register a complaint. If the city council does not listen or does not take action upon one’s complaint, then one can take part in the next election offering a candidate that hears and understands one’s issues.
Yes, I agree, if homeowners  do not keep their property free of garbage and maintain some modicum of care, a complaint can be filed with the city council or police department. I had a problem with my next door neighbor and his garbage, and we had weekly pick-up by the city designated company. My neighbor was a lawyer and thought he could bamboozle me with his legalize. The police took care of the problem for me.
I perceive government as an asset, a friend, a resource for solving problems. They are my friends unless and until they demonstrate that they are not worthy of my trust. When that happens, I have recourse that works at the local level, not so much at the state and national level. However, I am a good community organizer and know how to replace people in office. I have done it more than once.
I am not interested in a god or parent taking care of me. I am interested in getting on with my business and not having to tend to some problems that can effectively and efficiently be handled by my government.
Some people call taxes extortion. I do not! I perceive taxes as the cost of living in a civilized society. If I can afford to live in the city, then I pay taxes required of me for services rendered.
Making a profit is not evil, it is what work is all about! There is a demand for some goods or services, I provide them, I expect to earn a profit. If the gain is not high enough, I stop offering the product.
I laughed when President Reagan called attention to a Mexican woman who built an excellent business by making and selling tacos off a van. In fact, she made a fortune and contributed significantly to Reagan’s campaigns. What Reagan didn’t tell was the horrid wages she paid her illegal immigrants to make that fortune.
There seems to be a difference between liberals and libertarians. Liberals care about people, especially vulnerable people. Libertarians tend to care about making profits off the backs of others. People don’t make fortunes by producing goods and services; they make money off the labor of others and paying non-living wages.
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 Permalink Reply by Joan Denoo 12 hours ago

Tom, I very much appreciate your words of caution to remember the First Amendment in relation to Michael. I also recognize to use valid and reliable rebuttals in a discussion. I know this is not a place for debate, however when a statement occurs, I and others have a right and a responsibility to respond with appropriate words and attitudes.
Your caution provides an important element that we can learn and practice. Thanks.
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 Comment by Joan Denoo 6 hours ago
I had a devil of a time getting this posted. So I copied and pasted it on another site and it was posted. Now, I see this one was finally posted a minute ago. Sorry for the duplicate.
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 Comment by Joan Denoo 6 hours ago
If there were a god he/she/it would be giving the same message to each nation on every continent. The imperative would be to live in peace with justice for all. The purpose would be to create a world of people making the decisions in the interest of the health of individuals, tribes, communities, nations, and religions. There would be no fight over doctrine. There would be an emphasis on community building. Voluntary population control would be part of the litany. The focus would be on cleanliness to prevent disease spread and an emphasis on problem-solving and conflict resolution. The highest value would be win/win with each one having a valid right to contribute and consume.
What does exist seems to be an appetite for the accumulation of wealth and treasure. There are hierarchies that create class systems.
A participatory structure based on need and availability of food and resources requires discipline to manage. If god existed, he/she/it would guide in setting limits. Sexual appetites based on desire would provide birth control instructions that work.
If there is no god, any gods, and there is nothing listening or answering prayers, and there is no savior to redeem us, and there is no heaven, hell, nirvana or whatever, then Homo sapiens have to take charge of their lives. Stop depending on imaginary powers to solve problems.
Begin to think in terms of taking responsibility for ones' safety, security and stability. Provide food for all and teach our children how to be self-sufficient. Provide work in maintaining our infrastructure. Develop strategies for access to life-long education and health care. Create the means to care for elderly through the aging process until death.
Because there is no god, and Homo sapiens evolved from the great apes, and because Homo sapiens have the ability to see what is real, identify problems, search for options, develop action plans and evaluate progress, we, unlike great apes, can manage our lives.
.
 Comment by Daniel W 21 hours ago
From taxthechurches.org

The churches and their leaders are morally bankrupt.  It's time to stop supporting them financially.  When churches don't pay taxes, we are supporting them.  Even atheists are supporting them through our tax dollars.

"The next time Congress is looking for an extra couple billion to finance a war, tell them to look no further than an income tax on religious payroll. Better yet, tell them today, and let them know you intend to VOTE accordingly"
.
 Comment by Grinning Cat 22 hours ago
"Change cannot possibly happen." So the followers of Jesus, or, rather, the followers-on who told stories about him and started a religion, had no business changing the clear knowledge of everything good and right and holy that came before! /s
.
 Comment by Ruth Anthony-Gardner on June 23, 2015 at 3:40pm
LoL sk8ey cat, on “I wonder if the churches will ever be as financially bankrupt as they are morally.  (Then all the land they own could be put to better use, for one thing.)”
Enjoyed your video, Loren!
.
 Comment by Joan Denoo on June 23, 2015 at 2:39pm
Change means leaving behind old rules that define who one is, what one's purpose in life is, and how one should think and act, even if the thoughts and actions do not fulfill the needs of the individual or the family.
Change? What? No god? No angels? No Jesus? No heaven or hell? No obedience or submission? No morals? No rules? No bible?
Who can a religious person trust if he or she can't trust in the words of the holy or the beliefs of the ancestors?
Change means having to find the difference between right and wrong for oneself. It means there is no god to hear prayers or no Jesus to save. If he or she has no one or thing in which to put one's faith, how is one to know how to act, what to think, how to love, who to hate?
Change means not having dominion over wives and children for men and not having a husband or father to control one's life for women.
Change to what? Chaos? Disorder? Anarchy? Turmoil?  A woman cannot possibly allow that to happen; A man cannot permit it.
After all, the bible is holy! God exists and judges! Jesus sacrificed himself for others! Tradition maintains order! Change cannot possibly happen. 
.
 Comment by Loren Miller on June 23, 2015 at 2:16pm
Would someone care
For a breath of fresh air?
 
There ... and I don't even use Tylenol.
.
 Comment by sk8eycat on June 19, 2015 at 9:30pm
There sure are a lot of nekkid emperors still parading around!  I wonder if the churches will ever be as financially bankrupt as they are morally.  (Then all the land they own could be put to better use, for one thing.)
.
 Comment by Joan Denoo on June 19, 2015 at 7:40pm
It is the hypocrisy that amazes me. I guess I am still a naive girl who believes priests and police keep us safe. ye gads! How foolish my thoughts. 
Telling the truth, out loud, so others can hear me, is not the bad thing I learned as a child. "If you can't say something nice about someone don't say anything!"
That is just plain bullshit! Another "truism" bites the dust.
.
 Comment by Bertold Brautigan on June 19, 2015 at 6:00pm
Former Archbishop of St. Paul, John Nienstedt, as is the wont of those fun-loving Catholics, metastasized hypocrisy into an art form by a.) spending $800K of the Catholics'  cash in the attempt to squelch marriage equality in Minnesota and b.) repeatedly coercing priests into having sex with him. I guess for the Catholics sauce for the goose ain't nothin like sauce for the gander.
.
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LGBTQI atheists, nontheists, and friends




Nontheist lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and intersex people & friends.


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Does Obama's gay advocacy exclude trans
Started by Ruth Anthony-Gardner. Last reply by Joan Denoo on Sunday.
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Marriage Equality Now Legal Throughout the US
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Betty Bowers on PRIDE
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Gay christians.
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Christian Right Bigots Destroyed LGBT Lives for Decades: Now They Claim to be Victims?
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Boycotting Indiana
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Per Right Wing Watch, The Nuts Are Really Coming after the Fruits
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Legal for Colorado bakery to refuse to write anti-gay message on cake
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Discrimination by nontheists?
Started by Jacob Dreiling. Last reply by Bertold Brautigan Mar 27.
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 Comment by Joan Denoo 6 hours ago
I had a devil of a time getting this posted. So I copied and pasted it on another site and it was posted. Now, I see this one was finally posted a minute ago. Sorry for the duplicate.
.
 Comment by Joan Denoo 6 hours ago
If there were a god he/she/it would be giving the same message to each nation on every continent. The imperative would be to live in peace with justice for all. The purpose would be to create a world of people making the decisions in the interest of the health of individuals, tribes, communities, nations, and religions. There would be no fight over doctrine. There would be an emphasis on community building. Voluntary population control would be part of the litany. The focus would be on cleanliness to prevent disease spread and an emphasis on problem-solving and conflict resolution. The highest value would be win/win with each one having a valid right to contribute and consume.
What does exist seems to be an appetite for the accumulation of wealth and treasure. There are hierarchies that create class systems.
A participatory structure based on need and availability of food and resources requires discipline to manage. If god existed, he/she/it would guide in setting limits. Sexual appetites based on desire would provide birth control instructions that work.
If there is no god, any gods, and there is nothing listening or answering prayers, and there is no savior to redeem us, and there is no heaven, hell, nirvana or whatever, then Homo sapiens have to take charge of their lives. Stop depending on imaginary powers to solve problems.
Begin to think in terms of taking responsibility for ones' safety, security and stability. Provide food for all and teach our children how to be self-sufficient. Provide work in maintaining our infrastructure. Develop strategies for access to life-long education and health care. Create the means to care for elderly through the aging process until death.
Because there is no god, and Homo sapiens evolved from the great apes, and because Homo sapiens have the ability to see what is real, identify problems, search for options, develop action plans and evaluate progress, we, unlike great apes, can manage our lives.
.
 Comment by Daniel W 21 hours ago
From taxthechurches.org

The churches and their leaders are morally bankrupt.  It's time to stop supporting them financially.  When churches don't pay taxes, we are supporting them.  Even atheists are supporting them through our tax dollars.

"The next time Congress is looking for an extra couple billion to finance a war, tell them to look no further than an income tax on religious payroll. Better yet, tell them today, and let them know you intend to VOTE accordingly"
.
 Comment by Grinning Cat 22 hours ago
"Change cannot possibly happen." So the followers of Jesus, or, rather, the followers-on who told stories about him and started a religion, had no business changing the clear knowledge of everything good and right and holy that came before! /s
.
 Comment by Ruth Anthony-Gardner on June 23, 2015 at 3:40pm
LoL sk8ey cat, on “I wonder if the churches will ever be as financially bankrupt as they are morally.  (Then all the land they own could be put to better use, for one thing.)”
Enjoyed your video, Loren!
.
 Comment by Joan Denoo on June 23, 2015 at 2:39pm
Change means leaving behind old rules that define who one is, what one's purpose in life is, and how one should think and act, even if the thoughts and actions do not fulfill the needs of the individual or the family.
Change? What? No god? No angels? No Jesus? No heaven or hell? No obedience or submission? No morals? No rules? No bible?
Who can a religious person trust if he or she can't trust in the words of the holy or the beliefs of the ancestors?
Change means having to find the difference between right and wrong for oneself. It means there is no god to hear prayers or no Jesus to save. If he or she has no one or thing in which to put one's faith, how is one to know how to act, what to think, how to love, who to hate?
Change means not having dominion over wives and children for men and not having a husband or father to control one's life for women.
Change to what? Chaos? Disorder? Anarchy? Turmoil?  A woman cannot possibly allow that to happen; A man cannot permit it.
After all, the bible is holy! God exists and judges! Jesus sacrificed himself for others! Tradition maintains order! Change cannot possibly happen. 
.
 Comment by Loren Miller on June 23, 2015 at 2:16pm
Would someone care
For a breath of fresh air?
 
There ... and I don't even use Tylenol.
.
 Comment by sk8eycat on June 19, 2015 at 9:30pm
There sure are a lot of nekkid emperors still parading around!  I wonder if the churches will ever be as financially bankrupt as they are morally.  (Then all the land they own could be put to better use, for one thing.)
.
 Comment by Joan Denoo on June 19, 2015 at 7:40pm
It is the hypocrisy that amazes me. I guess I am still a naive girl who believes priests and police keep us safe. ye gads! How foolish my thoughts. 
Telling the truth, out loud, so others can hear me, is not the bad thing I learned as a child. "If you can't say something nice about someone don't say anything!"
That is just plain bullshit! Another "truism" bites the dust.
.
 Comment by Bertold Brautigan on June 19, 2015 at 6:00pm
Former Archbishop of St. Paul, John Nienstedt, as is the wont of those fun-loving Catholics, metastasized hypocrisy into an art form by a.) spending $800K of the Catholics'  cash in the attempt to squelch marriage equality in Minnesota and b.) repeatedly coercing priests into having sex with him. I guess for the Catholics sauce for the goose ain't nothin like sauce for the gander.
.
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