Wednesday, January 22, 2014
postmormon.org discussions that I have posted 1/22/2013
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New Gilbert Arizona Temple
Posted: 06 January 2014 11:35 AM [ Ignore ]
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NotYourWife
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Hi All!
I haven't posted in ages, but I lurk all the time. I'm a Never-Mo surrounded by Mormons deep in Mormon country Arizona.
I live about 3 miles from the New Gilbert temple that is about to have it's open house It's all over the news, and all the local Mormons are clogging up my FB feed with invitations to join "us" to tour the new Temple and answer questions, of course.
It is a huge, ugly building that you can see for miles. I can see it from my backyard. I have to drive by it to get to Costco and other shopping, it's a huge eyesore IMHO. Especially since I know what happens in there, and know enough about the Morg to know that it is not a place for me.
Anyone else nearby having to look at this monstrosity? or dealing with the same FB spamming?
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Posted: 06 January 2014 01:33 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Lloyd Dobler
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I also live pretty close and drive by all the time to Costco or the 202 etc. They could not have put it closer to the road. It is taller than the Catholic hospital nearby. It is gigantic. My ward said Sunday that they are running out of tickets and are going over 500,000 so far. Everybody in priesthood talked about how amazing it is etc and of course how the Lord is hastening HIS work in Gilbert. (the largest temple built in the last 17 years). They are even having a temple celebration at some high school where the Prophet will be in attendence. All the youth in the temple district will participate in the tradition of putting on a cast of thousands pageant. They are even cancelling young mens and young womens and instead have the kids practicing and getting ready to perform for the Prophet in the shadow of God glorious temple.
Of course, what shadows your backyard is nothing more than a very wealthy corporation building pyramids to impress their members and make them feel like the church is continuing to grow and is successful. It is a monument to not only to the church but also to the local Mormon power brokers. They donated the land, they will be running it, they will be basking in its glory. On the same land, there is also an adjacent stake center with special architecture to match the temple. I mean they are going all out on this whole project.
Mormons will talk as if this temple is some sort of beacon to the world representing God's one true church. As if the very existence of a building somehow brings non members closer to Jesus. What this building really is for is to make members feel special being mormon and to keep paying tithing to an organization that is a winner. Members may have a crappy life and they may pay their tithing before the utility bills (church teaching) but by God they can go inside that temple with its imported marble or mahogany or whatever and feel rich. The temple makes them feel like a winner anyway.
I find the whole thing disgusting.
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There’s a time to leave, there’s a time to think about
What I wanna say to the girls at the door.
I need somewhere to be
But I can’t get around the river in front of me.
Don’t Swallow The Cap
The National
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goUjS4ueCzQ
Posted: 06 January 2014 01:36 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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NotYourWife
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Lloyd Dobler:
I also live pretty close and drive by all the time to Costco or the 202 etc. They could not have put it closer to the road. It is taller than the Catholic hospital nearby. It is gigantic. My ward said Sunday that they are running out of tickets and are going over 500,000 so far. Everybody in priesthood talked about how amazing it is etc and of course how the Lord is hastening HIS work in Gilbert. (the largest temple built in the last 17 years). They are even having a temple celebration at some high school where the Prophet will be in attendence. All the youth in the temple district will participate in the tradition of putting on a cast of thousands pageant. They are even cancelling young mens and young womens and instead have the kids practicing and getting ready to perform for the Prophet in the shadow of God glorious temple.
Of course, what shadows your backyard is nothing more than a very wealthy corporation building pyramids to impress their members and make them feel like the church is continuing to grow and is successful. It is a monument to not only to the church but also to the local Mormon power brokers. They donated the land, they will be running it, they will be basking in its glory. On the same land, there is also an adjacent stake center with special architecture to match the temple. I mean they are going all out on this whole project.
Mormons will talk as if this temple is some sort of beacon to the world representing God's one true church. As if the very existence of a building somehow brings non members closer to Jesus. What this building really is for is to make members feel special being mormon and to keep paying tithing to an organization that is a winner. Members may have a crappy life and they may pay their tithing before the utility bills (church teaching) but by God they can go inside that temple with its imported marble or mahogany or whatever and feel rich. The temple makes them feel like a winner anyway.
I find the whole thing disgusting.
I agree, disgusting.
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I’m a Never-Mo
Posted: 06 January 2014 02:57 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
outclassed
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Yes - and it is screwing with the surrounding real estate market and job market and retail market and...
Is all this rapid growth sustainable?
Bubble 2.0?
Posted: 06 January 2014 08:20 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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NotYourWife
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Yes! everyone seems to be flocking to this area! It is pretty congested as it is, I can't imagine it getting worse. The Bed Bath and Beyond that is across the street is selling Framed Temple Prints. Gag. Keep it in the Deseret Book Store, not in my BBB! Today a FB friend posted, "come with me and you too can learn how families can be together forever!". From touring a building? no thank you
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I’m a Never-Mo
Posted: 06 January 2014 10:11 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
bjohn
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Lloyd Dobler:
I also live pretty close and drive by all the time to Costco or the 202 etc. They could not have put it closer to the road. It is taller than the Catholic hospital nearby. It is gigantic. My ward said Sunday that they are running out of tickets and are going over 500,000 so far. Everybody in priesthood talked about how amazing it is etc and of course how the Lord is hastening HIS work in Gilbert. (the largest temple built in the last 17 years). They are even having a temple celebration at some high school where the Prophet will be in attendence. All the youth in the temple district will participate in the tradition of putting on a cast of thousands pageant. They are even cancelling young mens and young womens and instead have the kids practicing and getting ready to perform for the Prophet in the shadow of God glorious temple.
Of course, what shadows your backyard is nothing more than a very wealthy corporation building pyramids to impress their members and make them feel like the church is continuing to grow and is successful. It is a monument to not only to the church but also to the local Mormon power brokers. They donated the land, they will be running it, they will be basking in its glory. On the same land, there is also an adjacent stake center with special architecture to match the temple. I mean they are going all out on this whole project.
Mormons will talk as if this temple is some sort of beacon to the world representing God's one true church. As if the very existence of a building somehow brings non members closer to Jesus. What this building really is for is to make members feel special being mormon and to keep paying tithing to an organization that is a winner. Members may have a crappy life and they may pay their tithing before the utility bills (church teaching) but by God they can go inside that temple with its imported marble or mahogany or whatever and feel rich. The temple makes them feel like a winner anyway.
I find the whole thing disgusting.
It's a "cultural celebration". I saw the one they did in Brigham City. I actually didn't mind watching. I cannot believe the amount of money that went into that thing. One stake had girls in matching dresses, boys in "military" uniforms. At least it was entertaining. They also broadcasted it in local stake centers because there wasn't much room at the high school football field.
Posted: 07 January 2014 05:00 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
Nephi
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So go to the open house and carry a nice red can of Coca Cola as you walk around the grounds. Put a cigarette behind your ear and roll a pack in the sleeve of your TShirt with a slogan supporting Gay Marriage.
No need to light up or drink the coke, just seeing it will set off some of the moralistic types.
Go ahead and tweak the nose of the beast.
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Posted: 07 January 2014 07:11 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
rain
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The building is huge. I guess the church was exempt from the local building codes. (check Google) One piece of information that I read, mentioned that the people who are concerned about the height of the building need not worry because there will be a lot of trees to break down the appearance of it being so huge. ??
Posted: 07 January 2014 07:42 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
St Monica
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Lloyd Dobler:
snip...
Mormons will talk as if this temple is some sort of beacon to the world representing God's one true church. As if the very existence of a building somehow brings non members closer to Jesus. What this building really is for is to make members feel special being mormon and to keep paying tithing to an organization that is a winner. Members may have a crappy life and they may pay their tithing before the utility bills (church teaching) but by God they can go inside that temple with its imported marble or mahogany or whatever and feel rich. The temple makes them feel like a winner anyway.
I find the whole thing disgusting.
On another forum ex-mormons were saying that the inside of temples is not real marble or mahogany and no gold leaf or gilt but yellow paint. Basically that it looks good but is actually cheaply made.
Not true? As a non-mormon I don't have a clue.
Posted: 08 January 2014 07:11 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Dadsprimalscream
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I'm nearby but my ex and therefore my children live a stone's throw across the street and actually attend the chapel a 1/2 block to the south. I mean it's so close that when the officiator farts, they can smell it.
I've actually met the family that lives next door to the temple and donated the land. They were super nice and hospitable to me and my kids... although, I don't believe they knew anything of my story.
My kids and I don't talk too much about it, but they're getting the full temple hype from Mom. I don't think I'll even go to the open house. I wrote in my blog why not, but you may have already read it as I posted it here.
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Posted: 08 January 2014 08:01 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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Lloyd Dobler
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St Monica:
Lloyd Dobler:
snip...
Mormons will talk as if this temple is some sort of beacon to the world representing God's one true church. As if the very existence of a building somehow brings non members closer to Jesus. What this building really is for is to make members feel special being mormon and to keep paying tithing to an organization that is a winner. Members may have a crappy life and they may pay their tithing before the utility bills (church teaching) but by God they can go inside that temple with its imported marble or mahogany or whatever and feel rich. The temple makes them feel like a winner anyway.
I find the whole thing disgusting.
On another forum ex-mormons were saying that the inside of temples is not real marble or mahogany and no gold leaf or gilt but yellow paint. Basically that it looks good but is actually cheaply made.
Not true? As a non-mormon I don't have a clue.
total bullshit, here is some interior info on the Oquirrh temple in stupid south Jordan:
Interior features - Interior stone: Light limestone from Morocco and darker limestone from Egypt. Woods: Rift-cut White Oak solids from Indiana and Kentucky. Veneers: White Oak (doors) and Sycamore from German Alps. Chandeliers: Schonebek with Swarovski Crystal (Celestial Room chandelier is 15 feet tall with 19,447 individual crystals). Bronze handrails: Julius Blum components forged in the United States. Original murals: painted by Church-service missionaries, supervised by Linda Curley Christensen
Now, I have never been in a mini temple and maybe some of the older temples don't are not quite as fancy but still, I mean I have spent a lot of time inside the mesa temple and the inside is pretty damn nice. same with vegas and every other temple I have been in. That Gilbert temple is going to be super fancy inside, although gratefully, I will never see it.
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There’s a time to leave, there’s a time to think about
What I wanna say to the girls at the door.
I need somewhere to be
But I can’t get around the river in front of me.
Don’t Swallow The Cap
The National
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goUjS4ueCzQ
Posted: 08 January 2014 08:14 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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Lloyd Dobler
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draper temple (from deseret news no less)
The Draper Temple features some interior woodwork made from African wood and limestone on the floors from France. White granite in the temple is from China.
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There’s a time to leave, there’s a time to think about
What I wanna say to the girls at the door.
I need somewhere to be
But I can’t get around the river in front of me.
Don’t Swallow The Cap
The National
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goUjS4ueCzQ
Posted: 09 January 2014 07:48 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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AprilT
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Other than the Vegas temple I have only been in mini temples. I didn't pay much attention to the materials but I do know the chandelier in the celestial rooms are Swarovski crystal. It took me by surprise when I was told that, which is the only reason I remember it now. It always bothered me how expensive the materials in temples were when so many people were hungry, etc. Such a waste.
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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. ~Edmund Burke
Posted: 09 January 2014 11:08 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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kinderhooker
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Regarding Swarovski crystals, see SNL here.
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“And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations.” Alma 37:3
Posted: 14 January 2014 02:42 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
outclassed
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For your future viewing pleasure...1/17/14
http://www.abc15.com//dpp/about_us/news_releases/gilbert-mormon-temple-abc15-gives-you-rare-look-inside
this ain't your mother's church anymore...
Posted: 14 January 2014 03:23 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
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josephs myth
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kinderhooker:
Regarding Swarovski crystals, see SNL here.
You teased another link out of me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zknq-p5x6c4
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Mormon Historian Steven Snow’s Job
Posted: 17 January 2014 08:31 AM [ Ignore ]
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josephs myth
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Of course, spin and snow job, what did you expect? Elder Steven's snow-job! ((snort))
http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/l ... 7d7e7.html
" Church historian Elder Steven E. Snow said that most people who study the church's history will understand the context. However, even some members get surprised on some topics and history "
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
Posted: 17 January 2014 08:35 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Tessa
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"Our objective over time," Elder Anthony D. Perkins said, "is that all of the gospel topics will be flushed out.
That statement is hilarious.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 17 January 2014 08:44 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
baneberry
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It wasn't a typo? I'd hoped they'd flesh it out.
Posted: 17 January 2014 08:46 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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josephs myth
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Tessa:
"Our objective over time," Elder Anthony D. Perkins said, "is that all of the gospel topics will be flushed out"
That statement is hilarious.
You sure you're not being very petty.
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-Nothing beats a failure like a try
_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
Posted: 17 January 2014 08:46 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
former victim
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Fleshed OR flushed...either way works for me.
Posted: 17 January 2014 08:47 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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josephs myth
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baneberry:
It wasn't a typo? I'd hoped they'd flesh it out.
Ha ha, the're still holding that one for later!
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-Nothing beats a failure like a try
_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
Posted: 17 January 2014 08:53 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
WinstonSmith
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Tessa:
"Our objective over time," Elder Anthony D. Perkins said, "is that all of the gospel topics will be flushed out.
That statement is hilarious.
I read that statement also and thought, "what and interesting word selection "flushed" That word alone should raise concern for revisionism.
Is it just me or did anyone else, when reading, feel like the words of Snow were condencending??? What I am hearing is---Our members are not smart enough to take the original source material and figure it out on their own, so we owe it to our children to rewrite it in a way that is intelligible. Of course the internet (information age) was blamed.
Posted: 17 January 2014 12:15 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
sage
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They attempt to come across as being proactive after they have been painted into a corner and forced to be reactive.
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If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away.
- Henry David Thoreau
Posted: 17 January 2014 03:16 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Matter Unorganized
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Jesus, what are these guys thinking? That statement, "Our objective over time," Elder Anthony D. Perkins said, "is that all of the gospel topics will be flushed out", is so wrong on so many levels. If these are truly "gospel" topics, shouldn't they have been telling the truth about them all along? What in hell's name needs to be flushed out, or fleshed out for that matter?
And "...even some members get surprised on some topics and history", again, why should they be surprised?
For me, it's not so much the history or the doctrine or the details, it's the fact that God's one true church upon the face of the whole earth has felt the need to LIE and hide the facts (another form of lying) from everybody for all these years.
Now it's coming back to bite them in the ass. It looks good on them.
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Posted: 17 January 2014 04:58 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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parrotheaddred
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Matter Unorganized:
Jesus, what are these guys thinking? That statement, "Our objective over time," Elder Anthony D. Perkins said, "is that all of the gospel topics will be flushed out", is so wrong on so many levels. If these are truly "gospel" topics, shouldn't they have been telling the truth about them all along? What in hell's name needs to be flushed out, or fleshed out for that matter?
And "...even some members get surprised on some topics and history", again, why should they be surprised?
For me, it's not so much the history or the doctrine or the details, it's the fact that God's one true church upon the face of the whole earth has felt the need to LIE and hide the facts (another form of lying) from everybody for all these years.
Now it's coming back to bite them in the ass. It looks good on them.
You hit the nail on the head!! I do not know about about all of you, but for me this was the breaking point. These self rightous bastards have been lying the whole time!! When "my eyes of understanding" were opened, & I realized that the leaders of the church, have covered up & changed one thing after another, without a single word, not even a mention to its members, it blew my mind. For me the strongest argument against the church is there blatant disregard for openess & honesty. I asked my wife who is a TBM, " is it ok for a prophet of god a man who leads & guides this church, that speaks directly to god himself to be a liar?" She answered, "I guess not". All of us here to some degree or another have suffered because of there dishonesty. I cannot believe the crap that the apologists come up with to confuse people away from the real issues!! Fair & Farms have done more harm than good for people, because they only confirm what the TBM doudted to begin with, & then to add insult to injury they come up with some lame ass explaination that the writers of the Xfiles couldn't have even come up with. I do my best to be honest with my fellow man, & the church should have done the same. Now the only thing that needs to be flushed is the bullshit
Posted: 17 January 2014 07:46 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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parrotheaddred:
Matter Unorganized:
Jesus, what are these guys thinking? That statement, "Our objective over time," Elder Anthony D. Perkins said, "is that all of the gospel topics will be flushed out", is so wrong on so many levels. If these are truly "gospel" topics, shouldn't they have been telling the truth about them all along? What in hell's name needs to be flushed out, or fleshed out for that matter?
And "...even some members get surprised on some topics and history", again, why should they be surprised?
For me, it's not so much the history or the doctrine or the details, it's the fact that God's one true church upon the face of the whole earth has felt the need to LIE and hide the facts (another form of lying) from everybody for all these years.
Now it's coming back to bite them in the ass. It looks good on them.
You hit the nail on the head!! I do not know about about all of you, but for me this was the breaking point. These self rightous bastards have been lying the whole time!! When "my eyes of understanding" were opened, & I realized that the leaders of the church, have covered up & changed one thing after another, without a single word, not even a mention to its members, it blew my mind. For me the strongest argument against the church is there blatant disregard for openess & honesty. I asked my wife who is a TBM, " is it ok for a prophet of god a man who leads & guides this church, that speaks directly to god himself to be a liar?" She answered, "I guess not". All of us here to some degree or another have suffered because of there dishonesty. I cannot believe the crap that the apologists come up with to confuse people away from the real issues!! Fair & Farms have done more harm than good for people, because they only confirm what the TBM doudted to begin with, & then to add insult to injury they come up with some lame ass explaination that the writers of the Xfiles couldn't have even come up with. I do my best to be honest with my fellow man, & the church should have done the same. Now the only thing that needs to be flushed is the bullshit
The outright lies and cover-ups are why I believe they cannot and will not survive as a church. They cannot become a respected protestant religion--as much as they would like to--because not only is their history worse than any anti-Mormon would dare make up, but the leaders who now have the watch are liars and con men--conning millions of innocent victims out of their money. When the dust settles--where will they find new members?
All I see for their future is for them to go out of the business of religion and make money with their investments, which investment money was originally stolen from conned members, or for them to go after a much more radical crowd, one that will not care about the present day lies or the ugly past.
That is if they are not forced to sell all their investments to pay off their victims from lawsuits that could go on for decades. That would be the fair thing to be done with the money they have stolen.
Posted: 19 January 2014 08:14 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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Tessa
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You know they just want all the 'hidden/bad' stuff to go "down-the-drain."
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 19 January 2014 08:30 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
baneberry
Member
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Joined 2013-10-01
The outright lies and cover-ups are why I believe they cannot and will not survive as a church. They cannot become a respected protestant religion--as much as they would like to--because not only is their history worse than any anti-Mormon would dare make up, but the leaders who now have the watch are liars and con men--conning millions of innocent victims out of their money. When the dust settles--where will they find new members?
All I see for their future is for them to go out of the business of religion and make money with their investments, which investment money was originally stolen from conned members, or for them to go after a much more radical crowd, one that will not care about the present day lies or the ugly past.
That is if they are not forced to sell all their investments to pay off their victims from lawsuits that could go on for decades. That would be the fair thing to be done with the money they have stolen.
How concerted do you think the effort is by the "church" to con and cover-up? I saw TSM at a temple dedication celebration and he was a dotty old man who had been removed from his familiar surroundings and couldn't have fought his way out of a paper bag.
I wonder, if at some point, the big pooh bahs (15) made some sort of statements to a lackey and a job was created at LDS inc. and the Ministry of Truth then takes said directive and a functionary at some level rights the ship and All is Well. My imagination can just start running away with myself and pretty soon, I'm seeing black helicopters and thinking the Committee for Strengthening the Members has a tap on my phone and has bugged my bedroom to see if I'm having oral sex again.
I wonder how much they really care about what it is that I think? If they made attempts to "rescue" me, what should I say or not say to them? I do wake up at night planning my next interview with the SP and all of the devestating things I am going to say to him that will facilitate the entire stake resiging the weekend of general conference. While this may sound a little over-the-top, I am only half joking when I say it.
Posted: 19 January 2014 11:23 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
Life Rocks
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What hasn't been mentioned here, aside from the continued half or incomplete answers or continued fabrications, is that the Church administrators (they're certainly not leaders) is that they don't do anything unitl they're forced to by public opinion or circumstances.
Is there any question among any of us that were it not for the internet and the access people now have for the Church history and now our ability to discuss these problems, I have to think that the "leaders" would not have volunteered the information. It's only because they're about to get caught that they're talking about this at all.
I suspect that they have a strategy to handle this situation.
They'll offer limited information so that they can refer back to it in the future to say "we did say something". Then they'll drag it out for so long that by the time people get to the bottom of the story, they'll have lost interest. Right now the Church is trying to do damage control, to hang on to as many members as they can. There are enough "stalwarts" who are so committed to the Church that no matter what the hierarchy does, they're not going to believe anything outside of what the "bruthren" say.
There is so much "cognitive dissonance" and anger that comes from discovering the facts that most active members dismiss anything that doesn't promote the story. If someone in a position of authority leaves the Church, the Church has already got that covered by saying "in the last days, even the very elect would be deceived." In fact they could even capitalize on the defections by saying "Aha, see the prophets foretold of this." Proof that the prophets were being lead by God.
Because members are so limited in their awareness of the "real world", like most of us who are so busy trying to provide for our families, we don't have time to consider what our politicans are doing. People are basically looking for someone to tell them what to do without thinking critically about it.
The naivity continues. The lack of critical thinking continues. I'm not sure what it will take to capitualate. The insanity is likely to continue for some time to come because educated and capable people can't or won't challenge anything.
Talk about a soap opera.
Posted: 20 January 2014 03:01 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
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josephs myth
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www.gapages.com/snowse1.htm
Just who is this snow job guy, huh?
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-Nothing beats a failure like a try
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
Posted: 20 January 2014 05:14 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
Nephi
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1. Obfuscation
2. Misdirection
3. Assure members that Church History is not pertinent to their salvation
4. Reinforce the Prophets message: When you have faith, facts don't matter
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Once you’ve tasted the grapes of wrath, you’ll never be satisfied with bananas.
No religion, no problems. Know religion, Know problems.
Posted: 20 January 2014 05:56 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
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Lloyd Dobler
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Nephi:
1. Obfuscation
2. Misdirection
3. Assure members that Church History is not pertinent to their salvation
4. Reinforce the Prophets message: When you have faith, facts don't matter
yeah, this is right on the money. I would only add:
5. Innoculation-Expose members to a small amount of the truth and apologestics in order to help them feel like they are informed and don't need to explore these issues any further.
This really is the goal. Now that the essays are on lds.org, it is only a matter of time before this stuff makes it into the manuals with the apporopriate level of faith promoting truth and spin. The church wants to take the sting out of these issues. They want the member to be less freaked out about the truth and therefore more likely to stay in. I actually think it may work pretty well because the last thing tbms want to do is actually question their faith.
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Posted: 20 January 2014 01:46 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 17 ]
Sossy
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josephs myth:
www.gapages.com/snowse1.htm
Just who is this snow job guy, huh?
Am I just seeing things, or does this website indicate that he was born in 1950 and in 1949? Seems like he can't even get his own story straight.
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Spaulding Manuscript Article on lds.org - Is it new? Did I miss the discussion of this one?
Posted: 02 January 2014 05:14 PM [ Ignore ]
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Truth Matters
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http://www.lds.org/topics/spaulding-manuscript?lang=eng
If I missed the Board's discussion of this before, please let me know. If this is, in fact, new, I look forward to your comments.
Happy New Year everyone!
Posted: 02 January 2014 05:36 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Lloyd Dobler
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wow. I have not seen this. It is short and just blows past what the real Sapulding theory is. If the church is going to do these kinds of hit and runs, lds.org is going to soon resemble the FAIR site in both volume and bullshit sidestepping.
this essay really hit me weird. like, why the Spaulding Manuscript? Are they now going to do View of the Hebrews, Late War, Kinderhook Plates, Greek Psalter etc?
at some point, I mean if there is list laundry list of problems on lds.org that are not really problems............doesn't that mean there is a problem?
what kind of message is this sending?
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Posted: 02 January 2014 06:08 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
Strong Free & Thankful
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I saw this one but blew it off as it just made me upset that they are such liars--but what else is new.
Posted: 02 January 2014 06:15 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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In my opinion it is terrible. It tries to brush it off as if it was proven a non factor long ago. And a lot of that is based on the people of Oberlin College in 1886. Then they bring up the unlearned man idea as if that is an idea springing from the critics. I have only ever heard the unlearned man idea being spewed from the church to support Joseph's need for divine intervention. IMHO the other essays were insufficient but some of what was said could be construed as reasonable. This is garbage. At least twice in this essay they confirm the literal translation of ancient records. Why do they never invoke BH Roberts and his assertion that Joseph could have created the B of M given his creative mind and ideas such as Spauldings that were floating around. Spaulding's manuscript may not have been the main source but I know an awfully lot of people who feel strongly that it was a factor.
They are wasting their time. TBM's don't need or care about this and doubters won't buy any of it.
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Posted: 02 January 2014 09:22 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Tessa
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They're trying to cover Sidney Rigdon's butt, who stole it in the first place.
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Posted: 02 January 2014 11:06 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Lord of Darkness
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Of all the essays, this is the most superficial and lame. It's silly to suggest that the Solomon Spaulding Manuscript is the only question mark about the Book of Mormon.
The list of material that JS, Rigdon, Cowdery et al. used to compile the BOM is much larger than the Spaulding Manuscript.
http://mormonthink.com/influences.htm#full
The BOM is a plagiarized POS that has zero archeological evidence and even Stanford University concluded it was written by a group of individuals, primarily Sidney Rigdon.
Keep trying LD$.
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Posted: 03 January 2014 06:50 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
WinstonSmith
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Universities use plagiarism software to detect academic dishonesty---Does BYU use any of this software? Have any BYU students ever been dismissed from the University because of plagiarism software that caught them plagiarizing?
Assuming that BYU uses plagiarism software, I have often wondered what would happen if the same software was used to compare the BoM with "The Late War", "the Spaulding Manuscript", "The View of the Hebrews"?
It sounds like a time bomb to me and a potential PR nightmare for TSCC; a student is kick out BYU because of plagiarism discovered by the same software that shows the BoM to have been plagiarized from other sources.
Posted: 03 January 2014 06:56 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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WanderingGeek
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So it starts out as this:
This claim has been discredited many times by people inside and outside of the Church. The Book of Mormon was translated from ancient records by the gift and power of God. It has no connection with the Spaulding manuscript.
Sooooooo.....just cause they say it has been discredited means its true? And the "It was translated from ancient records, blah blah blah" People are just suppose to go, "Of course...why did I ever doubt!"
Seems like a lame attempt if you ask me.
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Posted: 03 January 2014 07:30 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
martyrdumb
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I think they take this approach with Spaulding-Rigdon because it's the closest thing to a smoking gun for the BoM that's out there. I already had no doubts about the the church being a fraud by the time I read anything on Spaulding-Rigdon, but there was nothing I had ever read that gave me any confidence as to the origin of the BoM. I never bought into Joseph writing it himself, or simply stealing from View of the Hebrews (although I thought that book clearly influenced it).
The Craig Criddle wordprint analysis research was like the final piece of the puzzle for me. I read it and was immediately convinced that was the answer. It's a really tough thing to argue against as the evidence is overwhelming, IMO.
Any reference made to Spaulding by the church or apologists pulls this trick. They try to marginalize it by saying it's been discredited repeatedly, and say it in a manner that attempts to make the reader feel stupid for even taking it seriously. The is classic scammer tactics.
If I could convince any TBM friend or family member to read just one thing, it would be the Criddle paper on the Spaulding-Rigdon theory. I think it's even more convincing and foundation-shaking than the Book of Abraham because it goes right at the BoM.
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Posted: 03 January 2014 08:01 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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I haven't heard of that Martyrdumb thanks. I am googling it now. Can't wait to add something to my timeline of "As I search.." kind of my online journal of things I cam finding out :D
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Posted: 03 January 2014 08:25 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
sage
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An acquaintance says tis is not a new essay in line with the others. I don't know the date or history but it reeks of FAIR or FARMS bullshit from a few years back. Anybody know?
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Posted: 03 January 2014 09:45 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
martyrdumb
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WanderingGeek:
I haven't heard of that Martyrdumb thanks. I am googling it now. Can't wait to add something to my timeline of "As I search.." kind of my online journal of things I cam finding out :D
Start here. It's lengthy, but well worth the read, IMO. I can't speak for others, but I was kind of blown away when I started readin on Spalding-Rigdon. The connection they found between Spalding and Rigdon at the post office is pretty damning. I also think the affadavits by those who knew Spalding and listened to his stories is tough to get around unless you complete dismiss them as liars. They used to call Spalding "Old Come to Pass" because he used the phrase "And it came to pass" so often in his stories.
http://sidneyrigdon.com/criddle/rigdon1.htm
A wordprint analysis was also done a few years after this that places an extremely high probability that Rigdon wrote the religious sections and Spalding wrote the story sections of the BoM. It was peer reviewed and published in the OPxford Literary and Linguistic Computing journal. It's very academic and tough to read, but here's a link just in case.
http://www.stanford.edu/~mjockers/pubs/LLCPreprintReassess.pdf
But if you want the easiest way to understand all of this, here is a presentation he gave at the Exmormon conference in 2009.
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1F7D837E67152083
I preferred to read the whole write up in the first link I provided as that gave more detail, but the presentation is really good, too.
There was something very satisfying about this research for me. I was already out and didn't have any lingering "maybe I'm wrong and it's really true" feelings. But to me, this became the "I know" where the BoM comes from now. It cleared up so many things. Others haven't been as convinced by this research, but for me it was the thing that pretty much closed the door. This is how it all went down.
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Posted: 03 January 2014 10:06 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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Lloyd Dobler:
wow. I have not seen this. It is short and just blows past what the real Sapulding theory is. If the church is going to do these kinds of hit and runs, lds.org is going to soon resemble the FAIR site in both volume and bullshit sidestepping.
this essay really hit me weird. like, why the Spaulding Manuscript? Are they now going to do View of the Hebrews, Late War, Kinderhook Plates, Greek Psalter etc?
at some point, I mean if there is list laundry list of problems on lds.org that are not really problems............doesn't that mean there is a problem?
what kind of message is this sending?
I think you may be on to something here (as usual).
If the Spaulding Manuscript theory is so easily discredited--by both Morgbots and others--then why lend the theory further credence by addressing it at all? The Church doth protest too much, methinks.
In a way, I think it is a good thing they are addressing it. I doubt many TBMs today have ever heard of this issue--maybe a few will dig further and stumble upon the truth about the Morg, regardless of whether or not the Spaulding Manuscript theory turns out to be correct.
Posted: 03 January 2014 10:09 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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Tessa
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The minute the "questioners" start googling Spaulding, it's all over...
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Posted: 03 January 2014 10:23 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
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Hitchen's Razor
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Has anyone ever looked into whether Emma could have been the author, or one of the authors of the BOM? Seems she acted as a scribe for her illiterate husband quite a bit.
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Posted: 03 January 2014 01:37 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
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kinderhooker
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Lord of Darkness:
Of all the essays, this is the most superficial and lame. It's silly to suggest that the Solomon Spaulding Manuscript is the only question mark about the Book of Mormon.
The list of material that JS, Rigdon, Cowdery et al. used to compile the BOM is much larger than the Spaulding Manuscript.
http://mormonthink.com/influences.htm#full
The BOM is a plagiarized POS that has zero archeological evidence and even Stanford University concluded it was written by a group of individuals, primarily Sidney Rigdon.
Keep trying LD$.
LD$, Inc. also contends that it was written by a group of individuals: Nephi, Jacob, Mormon, and Moroni, among many, many others. The Stanford study has a fatal flaw: trying to match the writing and ideas to people alive at the time of the translation. They simply mistook Mormon (the primary author) for Sidney Rigdon in their analyses because of their faulty assumption that the authors were alive in the early 19th Century.
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Posted: 03 January 2014 01:50 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
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kinderhooker
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Hitchen&#;s Razor:
Has anyone ever looked into whether Emma could have been the author, or one of the authors of the BOM? Seems she acted as a scribe for her illiterate husband quite a bit.
I don't know of any evidence that she was one of the authors, but there is evidence that she lied about Joseph Smith, Jr. on several occasions. She lied when she told her children he wasn't a polygamist. She lied every time she claimed he was "illiterate". The boy Joseph was well-read, and fully capable of dictating a coherent letter.
I wouldn't put it past her to have helped with the stories, given she lied to make the coming forth of the Book of Mormon seem miraculous. I believe she knew there was nothing miraculous about it.
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“And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations.” Alma 37:3
Posted: 03 January 2014 06:37 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 17 ]
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Tessa
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Literacy doesn't necessarily depend on whether or not one can read a bible scripture. Joseph Smith had that all memorized when droned by rote, as millions were taught. He could not have generated a "new" thought when it's much easier to steal someone else's hiding inside a hat.
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Posted: 03 January 2014 09:09 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 18 ]
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I'm almost positive that I saw this article several months ago. I had a conversation with a TBM buddy of mine about Spaulding and next thing I knew this article showed up in my inbox. I don't think this has anything do to with the recent essays that have been released.
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Posted: 02 January 2014 09:22 PM [ Ignore ]
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-hoSd0tsn4
Get this! Atheists are redeemable. Not so sure about Lutherans though.
Mormons, prolly not.
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Posted: 03 January 2014 07:08 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Can you redeem them like S&H Green Stamps? If so, I'd collect enough to get a new blender...
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Posted: 03 January 2014 07:20 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Perhaps if you run them through the postmo wash and they become atheists they're redeemable.
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Posted: 03 January 2014 07:30 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Jesus supposedly saved everyone. Redeemed...now that's another matter entirely. It's that "do you want to be a god" or not...do you want to be an angel with a harp singing songs in god's bedroom? Or dance on the head of a pin?
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Posted: 03 January 2014 08:29 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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Can you redeem them like S&H Green Stamps? If so, I'd collect enough to get a new blender...
Posted: 03 January 2014 10:38 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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This asshole protects pedophile priests and wants to judge those of us who don't buy into his delusional narrative? He can go shit in his funny hat.
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Posted: 04 January 2014 08:55 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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YesIAmAPyr:
Can you redeem them like S&H Green Stamps? If so, I'd collect enough to get a new blender...
I see what you did there. Yarr!
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Posted: 30 December 2013 02:40 PM [ Ignore ]
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For your consideration and comment:
http://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-translation?lang=eng
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Posted: 30 December 2013 03:42 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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OK, so I find this interesting.
it says
" The other instrument, which Joseph Smith discovered in the ground years before he retrieved the gold plates, was a small oval stone, or “seer stone.”18 As a young man during the 1820s, Joseph Smith, like others in his day, used a seer stone to look for lost objects and buried treasure."
So it states that like others, they would use "seer stones" to find buried treasure. I am kind of suprised that it just flat out says it..... Again, the seer stone is something I had never heard of before about a month and a half ago. (Although I am finding a bunch of doctirine that I had never heard before. Makes me wonder just how much I really understood about the church. I felt like I had a really good grasp on it all lol)
And then this has been a question for me since I heard of these stones. This article says " According to these accounts, Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer stone in a hat, pressed his face into the hat to block out extraneous light, and read aloud the English words that appeared on the instrument."
So...here is my question. IF this is how he did part or MOST of the BofM. (Other things I have read state that he did this after he lost the 116 pages. So everything we have is from this method.) So if this is how he did it, then is it really "translation"? As he's not looking at the book, he's just reading words that appear in this hat.
Thanks for posting this link. I am still in AWE at everything.
I sit at home and think, Maybe I am wrong. maybe the church is true and I am just being fooled. But then I see things like this. And old teachings..... I just can't believe what I am seeing.
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Posted: 30 December 2013 03:55 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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One of the interesting things about all of these essays is how the church tries to still preserve the miracle of the restoration while at the same time having to disclose facts that show the restoration as anything but miraculous.
One thing that hit me early on in my study of the truth about the church was just how ordinary the church is..........I mean every single aspect of the restoration, when looked at with all the available facts, is just dudes making crap up as they go, copying stuff, lying about stuff, trying to get chicks, get power and get money.
The church wants to somehow tell us more facts about Santa but still make us believe that he gets around and delivers the presents to everybody anyway.
If members read this and then go to mormonthink, they are still going to be pissed and feel lied to. I don't think any of the essays so far released would help a member feel that they were not lied to AFTER reading the essay and then AFTER doing further research. If anything, the member will only more clearly see how the church is obfuscating the truth.
I am pretty much not a fan of the church.
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Posted: 30 December 2013 04:44 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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"Joseph Smith stands out among God’s prophets, because he was called to render into his own language an entire volume of scripture amounting to more than 500 printed pages, containing doctrine that would deepen and expand the theological understanding of millions of people."
This couldn't be more wrong. JS didn't render the BOM into his own language. JS spoke 19th century English, but the BOM is written in 16th century English as so elloquently put by Richard Dawkins: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzZvR5HLm8Q
I've heard the language of his day argument before when this is brought up, but then I thought about the Richard Dawkins statement more carefully. The Bible is written entirely in 16th/17th century English. Modern Bibles are written in modern language. The only logical reason to write something in old English would be to allow himself to freely quote, "borrow," and in the case of a good portion of the BOM steal material from the KJV Bible should he run out of material or need evidence to back up the claims of the characters in the book.
Posted: 30 December 2013 05:34 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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...more than 500 printed pages, containing doctrine that would deepen and expand the theological understanding of millions of people."
And what doctrine exactly does the BoM "deepen and expand?"
The Godhead? well, in it's original state before JS started changing the beginning chapters, it said the Godhead was Trinitarian.
Baptism of the Dead? Nope.
Temple Coveneants? Nope. (the BoM temples are nothing like LDS build today...they didn't have masonic rites to base it on like JS did)
Word of Wisdom? Nope
Polygamy? Nope
Killing because God told you to? (aka lying for the Lord) Unfortunately (the ends justifies the means )
Skin color determines righteousness? Unfortunately
Rip one of those pages out and show me a theological piece of the puzzle that was missing.
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Posted: 30 December 2013 07:03 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Another amazing faith-promoting essay! The BOM must be true because it only took them 2,000 words and 34 footnotes to say it.
Footnote 19 is my favorite, which states, in relevant part, "Joseph did not hide his well-known early involvement in treasure seeking. In 1838, he published responses to questions frequently asked of him. 'Was not Jo Smith a money digger,' one question read. 'Yes," Joseph answered, "but it was never a very profitable job to him, as he only got fourteen dollars a month for it.' According to Martin Harris, an angel commanded Joseph Smith to stop these activities."
So should the For the Strength of Youth pamphet encourage "treasure seeking"? Joseph Smith learned to con people with a stone and later discovered that he could con people with religion much easier. The BOM was a multi-source plagerized fictional account of a non-existent people--nothing more. DNA evidence, archeology, geography, and every other science tell us loud and clear that the BOM is fictional. The arguments to the contrary used by apologists are the same offered to prove the existence of UFOs or Bigfoot. Joseph Smith lied about the Book of Abraham, was wrong about the Kinderhook Plates and the Greek Psalter, and used his position to get tail.
I grew up in the church in Salt Lake, served a mission, married in temple, etc., and the first time I heard mention of the seer stone in the hat was from "Rough Stone Rolling." For some reason, no one mentioned that at the MTC...
#totalbullshit
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Posted: 30 December 2013 08:27 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Lloyd Dobler:
One of the interesting things about all of these essays is how the church tries to still preserve the miracle of the restoration while at the same time having to disclose facts that show the restoration as anything but miraculous.
Bingo. It's...
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Posted: 30 December 2013 09:07 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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These essays are so poor and barely scratch the surface of the issues. For example:
the article states that a spectacle "urim & thummim" was used to translate the BOM as well as a common stone discovered in the ground. First the essay mentions how special the spectacle version of the urim & Thummim was:
“kept and preserved by the hand of the Lord” and “handed down from generation to generation, for the purpose of interpreting languages.”
Then the essay introduces the 'seer stone':
"The other instrument, which Joseph Smith discovered in the ground years before he retrieved the gold plates, was a small oval stone, or “seer stone.” As a young man during the 1820s, Joseph Smith, like others in his day, used a seer stone to look for lost objects and buried treasure. As Joseph grew to understand his prophetic calling, he learned that he could use this stone for the higher purpose of translating scripture."
But the Church does not bring up an obvious natural question this would bring up:
Why would a common stone "discovered in the ground" have the same prophetic seering abilities as the spectacle urim & thummim which was "“kept and preserved by the hand of the Lord” and “handed down from generation to generation, for the purpose of interpreting languages”?
To get a more complete view on the BOM translation process and the many problems not discussed in the LDS article, read MormonThink's section on Book of Mormon Translation.
Posted: 30 December 2013 09:28 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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The other instrument, which Joseph Smith discovered in the ground years before he retrieved the gold plates, was a small oval stone, or “seer stone.”18 As a young man during the 1820s, Joseph Smith, like others in his day, used a seer stone to look for lost objects and buried treasure.19 As Joseph grew to understand his prophetic calling, he learned that he could use this stone for the higher purpose of translating scripture.20
I can just see this quote in a documentary, which then shows a Joseph Smith actor using this same oval seer stone to scam a group of rowdy treasure hunters late at night. When the treasure keeps slipping away underground, the group--led by Joe Smith--goes into town and buys or takes a black dog named Trey--and brings the dog to the treasure hunting site. The dog is tied with a rope, Joe Smith slits the poor dog's throat but leaves it alive enough so that he can lead it around in a circle and allow it to bleed out on the ground until the dog collapses--having bled to death.
Then the perhaps drunk men greedily dig within the circle of blood for the treasure, which lying Joe promised them. Finally exhausted, cursing and laughing the group of men devoid of honor or dignity make their way back into town.
I took a little poetic license on some details--I don't know if the men were drunk but I have read that the Smith men liked their whiskey. Most of the story is true and documented by Joseph Smith's neighbors. JS conducted money digging in this manner with the SAME STONE that he would later translate the Book of Mormon with. The sacrifice of animals was done in his money digging on a routine basis. There was a black dog named "Trey" that was sacrificed but sometimes he used black sheep. He would slit their throats and allow them to bled out in a circle and then dig.
I believe this information comes from Fawn Brodie's "No Man Knows My History" or from Richard Abanes' "One Nation Under God's" or from both. I would have to look it up but I will never forget the account when I read it. What a sick god this would be!
Too bad TBMs don't have the rest of the story but I do believe the media will soon see to it that they will.
Posted: 30 December 2013 09:53 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Lloyd Dobler:
One of the interesting things about all of these essays is how the church tries to still preserve the miracle of the restoration while at the same time having to disclose facts that show the restoration as anything but miraculous.
One thing that hit me early on in my study of the truth about the church was just how ordinary the church is..........I mean every single aspect of the restoration, when looked at with all the available facts, is just dudes making crap up as they go, copying stuff, lying about stuff, trying to get chicks, get power and get money.
The church wants to somehow tell us more facts about Santa but still make us believe that he gets around and delivers the presents to everybody anyway.
If members read this and then go to mormonthink, they are still going to be pissed and feel lied to. I don't think any of the essays so far released would help a member feel that they were not lied to AFTER reading the essay and then AFTER doing further research. If anything, the member will only more clearly see how the church is obfuscating the truth.
I am pretty much not a fan of the church.
Lloyd, I felt exactly the same way. I remember reading Fawn Brodie's biography of Joseph Smith and thinking, damn, this all seems so obvious. He's just like Bernie Madoff or any other schemer, only perhaps more narcissistic. I mean, if you look at the chronology of events in the church (rather than a topical history, like you learn in church), as Brodie and others do, it becomes even more obvious. Got caught committing adultery? Come up with a revelation about polygamy. Need money from Martin Harris? Come up with a revelation telling him to give all his worldly goods for the translation of the BOM. Meet a traveling salesmen of random Egyptian crap? Claim you've bought Abrahams's scroll and spend months pretending to translate it. Start to develop a following? Create an army, make yourself general, secretly crown yourself king, and establish a theocracy on the frontier!
Posted: 30 December 2013 10:40 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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Hitchen's Razor
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If you just change the facts ever so slightly and tell a TBM that this is how scientology got their revelation and auditing, they'd laugh their as* off and tell you how foolish those scientologists are. Yet some guy picking up an oval rock to search for.treasure and later saying he used it and some other magic rocks.to translated plates no one else saw (but a current church depicts others as seeing anyway), is totally reasonable...pray to know it's true...I feel horrible sometimes that I gave those missionary discussions to anyone...they were so.full of lies. That I memorized and still have stuck in my memory the made up BS first vision story galls me.
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Posted: 30 December 2013 10:48 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
quietlydifferent
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Wow, give it a few months and the morg will have all the stuff that proves it a sham scattered about in a few pages on their website. It is getting to the point that I am tempted to start having TBM's read these. The church is doing a bang up job of debunking themselves. I had to search things out and now people can just go to lds.org
Posted: 31 December 2013 04:39 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
Nephi
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"as far as translated correctly" may apply here just as with the Bible?
"Rocks in the head"?
"Hit on the head with a rock"?
Maybe these 'translations' are more accurate in explaining how Joe came up with his story?
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Posted: 31 December 2013 05:48 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
Nephi
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Improvement Era, October, 1939
http://archive.org/stream/improvementera4210unse#page/n57/mode/2up
"A neighbor, Willard Chase, asserted Joseph stole a "singularly appearing stone" which he had found in 1822 when Joseph and his brother Alvin were employed by him in digging a well. "Joseph put it into his hat and then his face into the top of his hat ... alleging that he could see in it." - Mormonism Unveiled, Eber D. Howe, 1834."
"This is an attempt to explain the alleged power of Joseph Smith to translate the plates by a person who denounced him as a fraud and an ignorant deceiver."
"In the opinion of the writer, the Prophet used no seer stone in translating the Book of Mormon, neither did he translate in the manner described by David Whitmer and Martin Harris. The statements of both of these men are to be explained by the eagerness of old age to call upon a fading and uncertain memory for the details of events which still remained real and objective to them."
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Posted: 31 December 2013 06:26 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
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Tessa
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The church tries to band-aid, only to finally admit...yes, Joseph Smith was a pagan-user of all manner of "witchy" stuff to do his "revelations." And if that isn't enough, any temple go-er will see the rituals of sun worship, (including Stonehenge-like veil doorways in the SL Temple) all through it. Joseph picked up all the local secrets and incorporated them (or stole them, if you prefer.)
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 31 December 2013 01:07 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
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As I read this essay, I thought to myself that it was designed to ease the TBM into the shock of finding out the BOM was translated with the "rock in the hat" method.
Then there's this bit: Of his experience as scribe, Cowdery wrote, “These were days never to be forgotten—to sit under the sound of a voice dictated by the inspiration of heaven.”
Note how the italicize the word inspiration. Why did they need to do this? Perhaps to fend off the obvious cog-dis when TBMs realize that the gold plates were not even used in the translation process. It was all inspiration. No gold plates required!
These essays are so spin-doctored, so tailored to the TBM minds, I think the authors and the approving board (probably the big 15) are losing sight of what they are actually doing. They are proving the anti-mormons right. It won't work on all TBMs, but I guarantee there are a few TBMs who are going to read these articles and take stock at the end of them. "Holy shit, the church has hidden all this stuff for years, and now they think they can just write a couple of essays and it's all good? Good lord, my brother-in-law's cousin's husband was right all along! It's all a crock of shit!"
Go LDS Inc! You're shooting yourself in the foot, and it looks good on you!
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Posted: 31 December 2013 04:37 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
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Matter Unorganized:
As I read this essay, I thought to myself that it was designed to ease the TBM into the shock of finding out the BOM was translated with the "rock in the hat" method.
Then there's this bit: Of his experience as scribe, Cowdery wrote, “These were days never to be forgotten—to sit under the sound of a voice dictated by the inspiration of heaven.”
Note how the italicize the word inspiration. Why did they need to do this? Perhaps to fend off the obvious cog-dis when TBMs realize that the gold plates were not even used in the translation process. It was all inspiration. No gold plates required!
These essays are so spin-doctored, so tailored to the TBM minds, I think the authors and the approving board (probably the big 15) are losing sight of what they are actually doing. They are proving the anti-mormons right. It won't work on all TBMs, but I guarantee there are a few TBMs who are going to read these articles and take stock at the end of them. "Holy shit, the church has hidden all this stuff for years, and now they think they can just write a couple of essays and it's all good? Good lord, my brother-in-law's cousin's husband was right all along! It's all a crock of shit!"
Go LDS Inc! You're shooting yourself in the foot, and it looks good on you!
Exactly! That is exactly what they are doing--easing them into becoming as accepting as the FLDS. For some it will work, for some it will not. As I mentioned before, I will be telling my family in my exit letter--which I have already started--that I hope they like being red because LDS, Inc plans to turn them into lobsters and slowly cook them so they don't feel a thing.
Posted: 31 December 2013 04:46 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 17 ]
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Tessa
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Ok President Monson, where are all our "seer stones" if they're so easy to find and use for JS....we should all have a bunch.
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”I’ve begun worshiping the sun for a number of reasons. First of all, unlike some other gods I could mention, I can see the sun. It’s there for me every day. And the things it brings me are quite apparent all the time: heat, light, food, a lovely day. There’s no mystery, no one asks for money, I don’t have to dress up, and there’s no boring pageantry. And interestingly enough, I have found that the prayers I offer to the sun and the prayers I formerly offered to God are all answered at about the same 50-percent rate.” George Carlin
Posted: 31 December 2013 05:51 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 18 ]
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kinderhooker
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Tessa:
Ok President Monson, where are all our "seer stones" if they're so easy to find and use for JS....we should all have a bunch.
I have a couple.
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“And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations.” Alma 37:3
Posted: 02 January 2014 01:38 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 19 ]
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Thanks for the FYI, Lloyd D. However, the Mormon Church is once again undermining its 'true' foundation by acknowledging (finally!) that JS used "a seer stone to look for lost objects and buried treasure" and "for the higher purpose of translating scripture."
How? The 'true' BoM states that the "interpreters" ("seer stones") were "prepared that the word of God might be fulfilled" (Alma 37:24), and "Doubtless a great mystery is contained within these plates, and these interpreters were doubtless prepared for the purpose of unfolding all such mysteries to the children of men" (Mosiah 8:19). In fact, there are six BoM verses about the supposedly crucial stone "interpreters."
As well, in early 1838 JS wrote the following about the all-important BoM "interpreters":
"Also, that there were two stones in silver bows — and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim — deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted 'seers' in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book."
But from what the LDS Church is now saying on its main website about JS and his "small oval stone" being used "for the higher purpose of translating scripture", a rock that he found "in the ground" in upstate New York sufficed for 'translation' purposes.
In other words, the supposedly vital "interpreters" from "ancient or former times" weren't needed! LDS apostle Russell Nelson effectively told new mission presidents as much in June 1992 when he said:
“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.”
However, since "the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man" (supposedly), why have "literally thousands of corrections...been made in the book", according to the Ensign in Dec. 1983?
It would seem that JS' "seer stone" repeatedly malfunctioned. But "prophet, seer, and revelator" Nelson described JS' face-and-stone-in-hat 'translation' technique as "miraculous"!
LOL!!
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Posted: 02 January 2014 09:12 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 20 ]
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As a teenager in the late 1980s and early 1990s, I remember hearing warings from church leaders and seminary teachers against engaging in occult practices, such as the ouija board and so forth. And yet, here Joseph Smith is using those very practices!
So, the church really can't tell the youth to stay away from them. (Of course, if you're setting up Joseph Smith as an example, you can't tell the youth to not have sex with people they're not married to, either.)
Posted: 02 January 2014 11:19 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 21 ]
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CdnXMo:
However, since "the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man" (supposedly), why have "literally thousands of corrections...been made in the book", according to the Ensign in Dec. 1983?
It would seem that JS' "seer stone" repeatedly malfunctioned. But "prophet, seer, and revelator" Nelson described JS' face-and-stone-in-hat 'translation' technique as "miraculous"!
LOL!!
Ahh, I see you missed their subtle exit hatch on this one. Note that their article includes the following:
"The manuscript that Joseph Smith dictated to Oliver Cowdery and others is known today as the original manuscript, about 28 percent of which still survives.8 This manuscript corroborates Joseph Smith’s statements that the manuscript was written within a short time frame and that it was dictated from another language. For example, it includes errors that suggest the scribe heard words incorrectly rather than misread words copied from another manuscript.9 In addition, some grammatical constructions that are more characteristic of Near Eastern languages than English appear in the original manuscript, suggesting that the base language of the translation was not English.10
Unlike most dictated drafts, the original manuscript was considered by Joseph Smith to be, in substance, a final product. To assist in the publication of the book, Oliver Cowdery made a handwritten copy of the original manuscript. This copy is known today as the printer’s manuscript. Because Joseph Smith did not call for punctuation, such as periods, commas, or question marks as he dictated, such marks are not in the original manuscript. The typesetter later inserted punctuation marks when he prepared the text for the printer.11 With the exceptions of punctuation, formatting, other elements of typesetting, and minor adjustments required to correct copying and scribal errors, the dictation copy became the text of the first printed edition of the book.12"
They clearly want to blame the "scribe" or the typesetter any time they want to make subtle corrections/deletions/additions to "correct" the gramatical contruction, etc. to align better with the "revelation" received via the rock in the hat.
Seriously, these guys have been playing this game for 150 years, they're good at it. They are, however, not very well equiped to deal with crowd sourced analysis of their articles and logic. They're trying, to some degree to take advantage of broader networks of minds to work their apologetic magic, but the problem with that is that they can't fully trust a network of apologetic followers, or even their own internal larger deparment...the 15 have to maintain control over the narrative and at least have their command structure review everything - and that's their real weakness, they'll never keep up with the South Park's and all of the Postmos of the world - while they might hold on to those they've already snared in their web, some will shake loose and it's going to be harder and harder for them to spin a narrative about a treasure seeking, peep stone looking guy in the 1800s getting direct revelation from God that sounds at all believable.
A couple other thing I noted in the article.
First, I just love how the church continues to make the "translation" a miracle that just couldn't have been completed by an uneducated bumblef*&k like Joseph in 3 months. Of course, it continues that by suggesting that he first got the idea of the plates and a book in 1823 (when he was 18), but most of the work was done in 1829, six years later. Come on - even an uneducated idiot could copy the bible and other works of the day in 6 years to come up with something like the BOM - especially if their day job was "treasure seeker."
Second, it was interesting to see the article point out how pedestrian Joseph's use of a seer stone to seek treasure was, but with no attempt to single him out as the real deal. "As a young man during the 1820s, Joseph Smith, like others in his day, used a seer stone to look for lost objects and buried treasure.19" Apparently there was a time in the 1800s when every Tom, Dick and Harry could pick up a pretty stone and take advantage of magical power to find things. Of course, as Joseph learned that there was more money (more than $14 a month) to be had in the big swindle of "translating" (i.e. making up) scripture and starting a church, he grew to understand his prophetic calling, he learned that he could use this stone for the higher purpose of translating scripture"
Very convenient
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Posted: 02 January 2014 11:39 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 22 ]
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I bet these essays help some doubting Mormons stay in the faith a little longer. I bet the essays bump others toward the exit. I wish the essays weren't so carefully worded to take away the obvious implications of the history being admitted, but I am glad that the LDS church is finally admitting some of the truth of its history. Probably what I like best is that thought that my kids--all now adults and all LDS--can go to the official LDS church site and see, "Wow, Dad was right all along." My conclusions were obviously different from those of the essays, but the core facts are on my side. I hope my kids someday see that.
It's important to me. I want to be vindicated. I want to not be blamed by my loved ones.
I'd also like it if the LDS church were far more open than this. Go ahead and tell the truth, the entire truth. If the entire truth for some LDS GA or historian includes, "and yet I still believe the church is true," well then include that part, too.
Posted: 02 January 2014 12:17 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 23 ]
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I find these essays fascinating, and am enjoying watching the "evolution" of Mormonism right before our eyes.
What I believe is that these will prove very effective for the church. They will do nothing to reel the likes of you and me back into the fold (we've known about this crap for years...that's why we're freakin' Postmormons!), but they will innoculate the younger, internet-savvy generation by providing answers in a non-appologetic way. You'll notice that the tone of these essays is very straightforward, as if to say, "Of COURSE we know this!" but they never compare what they used to teach us to what they're saying now...
...which would be rather illuminating.
Because without that comparison, people who haven't already come to terms with this sort of information will actually QUESTION THEMSELVES rather than question the church or its leaders. "Why didn't I know this? I guess I misunderstood in Primary...huh..." And before you know it, young people will never remember a day when Mormons believed anything other than what these essays talk about.
Exhibit A: The change to the temple ceremonies. Those of us who went to the temple 20 years ago remember the throat/belly slashing rituals, and the condemnation of protestant ministers. But ask any young person going to the temple today about those things, and they won't question the temple...they'll question YOU. They don't believe it was ever any other way.
And the same thing will be true regarding every issue the chuch undertakes in these essays. (More are coming, by the way...)
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Posted: 02 January 2014 12:26 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 24 ]
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Celestial Wedgie:
I bet these essays help some doubting Mormons stay in the faith a little longer. I bet the essays bump others toward the exit. I wish the essays weren't so carefully worded to take away the obvious implications of the history being admitted, but I am glad that the LDS church is finally admitting some of the truth of its history. Probably what I like best is that thought that my kids--all now adults and all LDS--can go to the official LDS church site and see, "Wow, Dad was right all along." My conclusions were obviously different from those of the essays, but the core facts are on my side. I hope my kids someday see that.
It's important to me. I want to be vindicated. I want to not be blamed by my loved ones.
I'd also like it if the LDS church were far more open than this. Go ahead and tell the truth, the entire truth. If the entire truth for some LDS GA or historian includes, "and yet I still believe the church is true," well then include that part, too.
Hence the inspired revelation to the holy pack of 15 penguins to construct a revenue stream to continue their lifestyle in the form of the Holy Mall with a creek running through it.
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Posted: 31 December 2013 12:44 AM [ Ignore ]
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A never-mo friend invited me to go to the new temple open house with her. I said no. Here's why
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Posted: 31 December 2013 12:59 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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I almost pooped myself, that was such a great read!
Posted: 31 December 2013 03:59 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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That is awesome... and the parable of the sh*tty pants is now part of PostMo lore.
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Posted: 31 December 2013 06:32 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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Posted: 31 December 2013 09:16 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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The spirit was so strong while I read that. I bear my testimony that I know that article is true.
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Posted: 31 December 2013 09:24 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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Posted: 31 December 2013 09:58 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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Thank you for your inspired words!
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Posted: 02 January 2014 11:12 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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There's something to be said for wearing skirts!
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Posted: 02 January 2014 11:33 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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Thanks for posting this.
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As a veteran of many a warm dookie, I share with you all my especial witness of the truthfulness of this blog post.
We desire all to produce one. All squat.
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Posted: 02 January 2014 11:49 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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Ducolax truly was a "gift from god" to accomplish with a swoosh...so what if it dyes your bowels black and scares your proctologist....it's still the best.
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‹‹ This guy a prophet or what? Can’t tell if I should laugh or gag! ››
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Casting for Religious Conversion TV Show
Posted: 20 January 2014 05:46 PM [ Ignore ]
religiousconversioncasting
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A serious documentary-style television show is looking for individuals who are beginning the religious conversion process and would like to share their story on TV. The special will follow an individual through the intimate process of their conversion. We want to hear about your frustrations, accomplishments, loved ones' reactions, and any other milestones that develop on your journey. The individual should be in their early to mid-20s and in the very beginning stages of the conversion process.
If you are interested or know someone who would be interested in this opportunity, please contact:
religiousconversioncasting@gmail.com
Posted: 20 January 2014 08:57 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Elder OldDog
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When are they going to do a serious documentary-like show on losing your virginity?
Posted: 20 January 2014 10:04 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
quietlydifferent
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Man, are you barking up the wrong tree. Some here have converted to other religious systems but this site is more about deconversion than conversion.
Posted: 21 January 2014 07:07 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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YesIAmAPyr8
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quietlydifferent is astute...
I have to question the veracity of a production whose staff is apparently unaware of the difference between conversion and getting the h out of religious dogma...
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Posted: 21 January 2014 08:36 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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quietlydifferent:
Man, are you barking up the wrong tree. Some here have converted to other religious systems but this site is more about deconversion than conversion.
Sure, I don't expect a lot of takers here, but they might get an interesting story out of it for just that reason. "I became a whatever because it didn't have all the problems that Mormonism did."
There are some searchers here, even some who seem to meet the requirement of just starting that search. Religion is just a good fit for some people (though I'll personally never understand them).
tttt
Posted: 21 January 2014 11:13 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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religiousconversioncasting:
A serious documentary-style television show is looking for individuals who are beginning the religious conversion process and would like to share their story on TV. The special will follow an individual through the intimate process of their conversion. We want to hear about your frustrations, accomplishments, loved ones' reactions, and any other milestones that develop on your journey. The individual should be in their early to mid-20s and in the very beginning stages of the conversion process.
If you are interested or know someone who would be interested in this opportunity, please contact:
religiousconversioncasting@gmail.com
Welcome back!
The story here is that people get a testimony that the lds religion has been lying to them the whole time. People recognize the betrayal of trust faith and love. People recognize the need to move on with or without any religion from this juncture forward. The story is about pissed off people that want the time they wasted in the Mormon game back! They want their dollars refunded that they realize they were conned out of. Age doesn't matter here, Truth does.
Good luck.
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Posted: 21 January 2014 01:38 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
quietlydifferent
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religiousconversioncasting:
A serious documentary-style television show is looking for individuals who are beginning the religious conversion process and would like to share their story on TV. The special will follow an individual through the intimate process of their conversion. We want to hear about your frustrations, accomplishments, loved ones' reactions, and any other milestones that develop on your journey. The individual should be in their early to mid-20s and in the very beginning stages of the conversion process.
If you are interested or know someone who would be interested in this opportunity, please contact:
religiousconversioncasting@gmail.com
That is really my biggest problem with this. It is very, very irresponsible. "Hey, young people! Want to be a part of a show about conversion? Great! Now be sincere while we only follow you if you are still in the conversion process. Sure, we will dump you like a rock if you decide what you are just now starting to look into and can't possibly know you are going to fully convert to if you happen to decide it isn't for you. No pressure. Be genuine and sincere as we film you. I mean you just started looking into this religion but, for the sake of our film and time, you will need to commit to converting as soon as possible." It is practically like how they tell missionaries to pop the baptism question in the first lesson.
Posted: 21 January 2014 04:42 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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what abt "conversion" to atheism....thats probably what ur gonna get from us
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Went to church yesterday and it was Ward Conference…
Posted: 20 January 2014 06:39 AM [ Ignore ]
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Yeah... I wasn't expecting that. I "had" to leave early two weeks ago with a sick kid. And then last week I didn't go at all as my entire family was sick. So I had no idea that it was ward conference. But to be honest it was the same, boring meeting that sacrament always is. (Even as a tbm, I always got bored in SM, and I always fall asleep during conference.) I just never enjoyed them. The more I think of it, I maybe wasn't the best little tbm I always thought I was.
Anyway... so my son was giving a talk in primary. And I went in to help him. But before he got to talk, the SP came in and had a little talk with the kids. (This is junior primary. I have a 3 yr and 5 yr in here) He show's them 3 pictures. JS in grove, JS getting plates with Moroni, and Temple. Again, just another boring thing. But something he said really bothered me. When talking about JS and getting the book of mormon he talked about how it was true. I expected this...but then he said they should all go talk to their parents and think of people they can share "this great book" with. And ask for help to give out b of m's to people who would like them. I mean...my kids are 3 and 5. STOP PUSHING THEM to push others!!!! Even as a TBM this was my BIGGEST pet peeve with the church. And lately in our area it's been a huge push to make members missionaries. Not just "Member missionaries" but missionary missionaries. I did my two years, it's no longer my "calling". But they are pushing all the members to do it. But I just sat there in disbelief as he told these young kids to go out and give out b of m's. And even IF my kids knew anyone their age...the other kids couldn't read it anyway!!!!!!!
Sorry...just had to get this off my chest. It was driving me crazy! I normally am not "angry" at the church, but this was just a little too crazy.
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Posted: 20 January 2014 08:01 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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When I was a little kid in Catholic school my mother was a very devote Catholic and my father was a lapsed Catholic. My mother used me all the time to try to guilt my father back to church.
It was such a disaster. He never went back. They ended up divorced. I never had a trusting relationship with my mothr and I left the church at my first opportunity.
I wonder if there will be blowback for those kids too when they catch on to how they're being used. I know I just did what I was told and said what I was programmed to when I was maybe 6-8. When I was old enough to realilze what I was doing I really felt shame about it for my father and resentment toward my mother.
Posted: 20 January 2014 08:05 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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Sounds like its time to keep the kidlets out of the thought reforming process altogether. When your impressionable darlins' see the plates, Moroni, etc, the exposure sticks with them for far too long and they learn to accept it as truth. Maybe time to relieve them of this burden that is being imposed on their young minds.
Posted: 20 January 2014 08:32 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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This should not surprise you. We moved a lot and everyplace we went there was always missionary Sundays. All the kids had name tags and the boys were in their white shirts and ties and girls were, well supportive ties. Talks and lessons were focused on how to bring people in and there was no exception on how young the indoctrination went.
The Morg is not quite as fanatical about this as the JW's just yet. A couple of weeks ago a whole family, to include two kids easily under the age of 5, were knocking at our door seeking to bring us the message.
But as long as you go to TSCC propaganda on all aspects, this included, will be shoved down the kiddies throats as well as your own. That's how you continue to cultivate and foster the cult.
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Posted: 20 January 2014 03:54 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
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I mean...my kids are 3 and 5. STOP PUSHING THEM to push others!!!!
Next up: Church extends mission calls to 3-5 year old males.
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Posted: 20 January 2014 06:47 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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My never Mormon youngest daughter attended the LDS church one Sunday with a friend when she was in high school. She was definitely not interested in joining but was curious so she accepted her friends invitation.
The sacrament talks were about temple work and Sunday school was about how to start conversations to get people interested in joining. On the way home, the friends mother asked what DD thought. DD just asked if they ever talked about Jesus. Silence the rest of the way home.
Posted: 20 January 2014 07:28 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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They do this member missionary themed stuff because the Brethren make 'em, but how many members act on it in any serious way? In my experience, even the most devout ones found reasons not to "open their mouths".
When they do find the zeal and the courage, it's not always a bad thing. I tried to get a guy I did summer interior paint jobs in university with interested in the Church. He was an atheist and a law student. I held my own pretty well against the many Christians I ran into on my mission but this guy completely tore me apart. Already thoroughly beaten, I showed up at work one morning and he was laughing. When I asked why I came to find he had been doing some casual research the night before and learned about polygamy. Before he could say anything else, I angrily announced that my religion was henceforth 'off limits' as a topic of conversation. It was many more years before I left, but he "planted a seed" to use the LDS vernacular, So yeah, go ahead and encourage 'em talk to the I indoctrinated. That sword can cut both ways.
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Posted: 20 January 2014 08:47 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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Elder OldDog
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Tessa:
I mean...my kids are 3 and 5. STOP PUSHING THEM to push others!!!!
Next up: Church extends mission calls to 3-5 year old males.
Why not? They get their calls betweein 3-5 and they and their parents have all that time to "prepare" !!
Posted: 20 January 2014 09:57 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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NoMorKulAde:
This should not surprise you. We moved a lot and everyplace we went there was always missionary Sundays. All the kids had name tags and the boys were in their white shirts and ties and girls were, well supportive ties. Talks and lessons were focused on how to bring people in and there was no exception on how young the indoctrination went.
The Morg is not quite as fanatical about this as the JW's just yet. A couple of weeks ago a whole family, to include two kids easily under the age of 5, were knocking at our door seeking to bring us the message.
But as long as you go to TSCC propaganda on all aspects, this included, will be shoved down the kiddies throats as well as your own. That's how you continue to cultivate and foster the cult.
I don't know, at least the JW's are up front about it so you know who's going to try to convert your kids. A lot different than having you kids proselytize their friends and have them invite friends over for pizza while neglecting to tell the parents that the missionaries will be "practicing" their schtick on them after dinner.
I think it's sneaky, underhanded, and vile for a church to use children to proselytize in a manner that bypasses parents.
Posted: 21 January 2014 11:10 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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Spending time in primary weakened my belief in church too. One day the primary president called and asked me if my daughter would bear her testimony of JS. "What do you want her to say?" "She should say she believes JS is a true prophet of God and that he spoke with God and taught church members to do many good things. He restored the true gospel of JC." So I politely agreed and then when I got off the phone I asked my daughter who Joseph Smith was. Her reply: "A good man who loved children very much." Little did she know how right she was :-( But without being gross, really, in her mind: Santa=Jesus=Joseph Smith. Needless to say she missed church the following Sunday. And that was the season we left church for good. We left partially to protect our kids from the judgement, misinformation, and guilt. For example, one day a 7 year old asked me "why is your daughter immodest?" (5 yr old. In a tank top dress) I said, "tank tops aren't immodest in our home." It blew her mind. Sad. P.S. I have to say, primary isn't the worst place in the world. I went religiously as a child and it didn't mess me up. That said, it is very important to encourage your kids' critical thinking if you or they stay.
Posted: 21 January 2014 11:11 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
mariejo
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Spending time in primary weakened my belief in church too. One day the primary president called and asked me if my daughter would bear her testimony of JS. "What do you want her to say?" "She should say she believes JS is a true prophet of God and that he spoke with God and taught church members to do many good things. He restored the true gospel of JC." So I politely agreed and then when I got off the phone I asked my daughter who Joseph Smith was. Her reply: "A good man who loved children very much." Little did she know how right she was :-( But without being gross, really, in her mind: Santa=Jesus=Joseph Smith. Needless to say she missed church the following Sunday. And that was the season we left church for good. We left partially to protect our kids from the judgement, misinformation, and guilt. For example, one day a 7 year old asked me "why is your daughter immodest?" (5 yr old. In a tank top dress) I said, "tank tops aren't immodest in our home." It blew her mind. Sad. P.S. I have to say, primary isn't the worst place in the world. I went religiously as a child and it didn't mess me up. That said, it is very important to encourage your kids' critical thinking if you or they stay.
‹‹ DW had a reason for JS to marry a 14 yr old... Oh crap... ››
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Ravi Zacharias At BYU
Posted: 31 October 2013 03:45 PM [ Ignore ]
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josephs myth
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Mohler and Zacharias may both be speaking to a BYU crowd in January of 2014, just a few months away.
Ravi Zacharias to speak to LDS again
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865589508/Mormon-evangelical-detente-Mouw-Zacharias-to-speak-to-LDS-again.html
Here's an older address to Mormons by Ravi Zacharias.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvrQ6yAjuOw
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Posted: 31 October 2013 07:22 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 1 ]
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Elder OldDog
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Isn't it nice that TSCC can do something nice, with absolutely no ulterior motive?
Posted: 31 October 2013 08:23 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 2 ]
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With all the anti-gay efforts TSCC has worked on along with their efforts towards getting women to stay in the darn kitchen it isn't shocking that they would seek to cosy up to some evangelical groups. I had to look up this Ravi and I don't like him one bit. He is anti-gay in the same condesending "it isn't you I hate but the part of you I refuse to admit you were born as" B.S. that pisses me off. He also seems to work hard at avoiding answering any real questions just like the big 15! I bet they get along great.
Posted: 01 November 2013 12:32 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 3 ]
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josephs myth
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quietlydifferent:
With all the anti-gay efforts TSCC has worked on along with their efforts towards getting women to stay in the darn kitchen it isn't shocking that they would seek to cosy up to some evangelical groups. I had to look up this Ravi and I don't like him one bit. He is anti-gay in the same condesending "it isn't you I hate but the part of you I refuse to admit you were born as" B.S. that pisses me off. He also seems to work hard at avoiding answering any real questions just like the big 15! I bet they get along great.
Oh no, is this now another gay thread? Look, I have very little interest in protecting everything that is right about the gay movement and protecting everything that is wrong with it too.
Do you wish to start another thread?
I'll try and set the title for it if you would like.
http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/32996/#535502
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
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Posted: 01 November 2013 12:59 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 4 ]
quietlydifferent
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josephs myth:
quietlydifferent:
With all the anti-gay efforts TSCC has worked on along with their efforts towards getting women to stay in the darn kitchen it isn't shocking that they would seek to cosy up to some evangelical groups. I had to look up this Ravi and I don't like him one bit. He is anti-gay in the same condesending "it isn't you I hate but the part of you I refuse to admit you were born as" B.S. that pisses me off. He also seems to work hard at avoiding answering any real questions just like the big 15! I bet they get along great.
Oh no, is this now another gay thread? Look, I have very little interest in protecting everything that is right about the gay movement and protecting everything that is wrong with it too.
Do you wish to start another thread?
I'll try and set the title for it if you would like.
I just went with the first thing that came up on a search of his name. It is less his position on one subject I feel very strongly about and more about how he seems like the same kind of backwards snake as the big 15. He doesn't seem to give straight answers, maintains outdated thoughtpatterns and talks in a way that would make him fit right in with Holland and the boys. I looked up multiple videos of him weaseling through questions and spewing old rhetoric. I just don't like him. The fact that he will cosy up to TSCC is just one more piece of the slimeball puzzle. I wonder how much they are paying him.
Posted: 01 November 2013 01:12 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 5 ]
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josephs myth
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quietlydifferent:
I just went with the first thing that came up on a search of his name. It is less his position on one subject I feel very strongly about, and more about how he seems like the same kind of backwards snake as the big 15. He doesn't seem to give straight answers, maintains outdated thoughtpatterns and talks in a way that would make him fit right in with Holland and the boys.
I looked up multiple videos of him weaseling through questions and spewing old rhetoric. I just don't like him. The fact that he will cosy up to TSCC is just one more piece of the slimeball puzzle. I wonder how much they are paying him.
Alright. I hear you.
This probably is one guy you may have gotten wrong though.
They are definitely not paying him and Mormonism is hardly the biggest thing that Zacharias may have handled already.
The guy is good, I don't know if you can maybe get used to that or is it possibly too much for you to try and evolve into?
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
Posted: 01 November 2013 08:54 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 6 ]
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I tried watching a number of videos of him and each one made me queasy. In one he had a father mention how his son asked him if non-Christians go to hell. He responded first by saying "I don't usually answer answers from that kind of person" which was a big red flag for me. Then he went into talking about how he hadn't been raised Christian with an emotional appeal. Then he talked about reformers... He never got around to giving a straight answer... It was just like watching Monson or Holland. Then I watched one where he was asked to explain why he felt that Christianity was the correct choice when there are conflicting claims of truth. He gave a emotional story about a woman who became a Bhuddist monk that he talked to. He asked her questions and then she cried so clearly Bhuddism is bunk. Then he mentioned Islam briefly and then he said there were four arbatriary questions a religion needs to answer in a cohesive manner. Once again he relied more on emotional manipulation than reason. I watched a few more before I threw my hands up in disgust. It is the same emotional manipulation B.S. and vague meaningless answers I left with TSCC. Don't get me wrong, I am still religious in my own way and have figures I respect in the religious field but they tend to give straight answers and use reason.
Posted: 01 November 2013 09:42 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 7 ]
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josephs myth
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quietlydifferent:
I tried watching a number of videos of him and each one made me queasy. In one he had a father mention how his son asked him if non-Christians go to hell. He responded first by saying "I don't usually answer answers from that kind of person" which was a big red flag for me. Then he went into talking about how he hadn't been raised Christian with an emotional appeal.
Then he talked about reformers... He never got around to giving a straight answer... It was just like watching Monson or Holland. Then I watched one where he was asked to explain why he felt that Christianity was the correct choice when there are conflicting claims of truth. He gave a emotional story about a woman who became a Bhuddist monk that he talked to. He asked her questions and then she cried so clearly Bhuddism is bunk. Then he mentioned Islam briefly and then he said there were four arbatriary questions a religion needs to answer in a cohesive manner.
Once again he relied more on emotional manipulation than reason. I watched a few more before I threw my hands up in disgust. It is the same emotional manipulation B.S. and vague meaningless answers I left with TSCC. Don't get me wrong, I am still religious in my own way and have figures I respect in the religious field but they tend to give straight answers and use reason.
Jesus of the Bible, is not the Jesus I learned about in Mormonism. Jesus Christ is soley milked for the name he holds by the backwards LDS church. I understand that Zacharias has got that down perfectly. He does admit though, that his welcoming to speak in the complicated situation at BYU to a completely saturated (brainwashed) crowd feels way over his head, beyond what he might believe anyone could possibly hope to accomplish. I love transparency like that. I am not familiar with a transparence like that in Mormonism.
This guy is deep and he is very very good. I don't yet know the question you may need answered. What exactly is it, maybe I can help? Maybe I can't but we need to start somewhere, don't we?
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
Posted: 01 December 2013 10:31 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 8 ]
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josephs myth
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http://www.ksl.com/?sid=27638695
Sacred Gifts, is the named BYU Museum of Art display depicting incredibly special paintings of Christ, for the first time ever.
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_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
Posted: 17 January 2014 09:58 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 9 ]
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josephs myth
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Live link available in maybe about an hour.
http://www.rzim.org/rzim-news/ravi-zacharias-at-byu-and-the-mormon-tabernacle/
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
Posted: 17 January 2014 11:35 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 10 ]
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Hiker Daddy
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quietlydifferent:
With all the anti-gay efforts TSCC has worked on along with their efforts towards getting women to stay in the darn kitchen it isn't shocking that they would seek to cosy up to some evangelical groups. I had to look up this Ravi and I don't like him one bit. He is anti-gay in the same condesending "it isn't you I hate but the part of you I refuse to admit you were born as" B.S. that pisses me off. He also seems to work hard at avoiding answering any real questions just like the big 15! I bet they get along great.
Makes sense to me. Evangelican Christians and Mormons talking about shared ground.
Evangelical Christianity and Mormonism suck with equal fervor in my opinion. Ravi is coming to BYU to remind Mormons that they aren't the only bigots out there. Bigots got stick together ya know?
Edit to add: Ravi seems like a creep to me and it's not just that his opinions on homosexuality, although that is enough to send me packing. Part of what bugs me about Ravi is that he cozies up to Evangelicals and what you mentioned in orange. Women staying in t he kitchen isn't Ravi's invention but it is supported by Evangelical dogma. Your mileage may vary.
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“I can’t go back to yesterday because I was a different person then.” Alice in Wonderland.
Posted: 17 January 2014 01:28 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 11 ]
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josephs myth
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Hiker Daddy:
quietlydifferent:
With all the anti-gay efforts TSCC has worked on along with their efforts towards getting women to stay in the darn kitchen it isn't shocking that they would seek to cosy up to some evangelical groups. I had to look up this Ravi and I don't like him one bit. He is anti-gay in the same condesending "it isn't you I hate but the part of you I refuse to admit you were born as" B.S. that pisses me off. He also seems to work hard at avoiding answering any real questions just like the big 15! I bet they get along great.
Makes sense to me. Evangelican Christians and Mormons talking about shared ground.
Evangelical Christianity and Mormonism suck with equal fervor in my opinion. Ravi is coming to BYU to remind Mormons that they aren't the only bigots out there. Bigots got stick together ya know?
Edit to add: Ravi seems like a creep to me and it's not just that his opinions on homosexuality, although that is enough to send me packing. Part of what bugs me about Ravi is that he cozies up to Evangelicals and what you mentioned in orange. Women staying in t he kitchen isn't Ravi's invention but it is supported by Evangelical dogma. Your mileage may vary.
Okay, so you want to maybe try and do this your way? No problem.
What keeps you from sounding like a loud bigot? Do you want to go back and listen to the podcast? Do you not know what you are attempting to say here? Do you have any slight idea who Ravi Zacharis is, his background? Are you possibly starting to sound a little bit like a fool? I'm sorry, I am not trying to embarrass anyone but this planned speech was maybe a much bigger event at BYU than where you may want to take this conversation.
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_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
Posted: 17 January 2014 01:45 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 12 ]
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josephs myth
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Ravi appears to be at the top of his game, fabulous delivery. You do know he knows, right?
More tomorrow.
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_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
Posted: 17 January 2014 03:23 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 13 ]
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Hiker Daddy
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josephs myth:
clipped stuff
Okay, so you want to maybe try and do this your way? No problem.
What keeps you from sounding like a loud bigot? Do you want to go back and listen to the podcast? Do you not know what you are attempting to say here? Do you have any slight idea who Ravi Zacharis is, his background? Are you possibly starting to sound a little bit like a fool? I'm sorry, I am not trying to embarrass anyone but this planned speech was maybe a much bigger event at BYU than where you may want to take this conversation.
.... What do you think my way is? Correct me if I am wrong but Ravi is a staunch defender of the traditional evangelicalism. That's from Wikipedia and his own web page. Do you know something about Ravi that isn't on his webpage like maybe he really isn't an evangelical preacher with a strong following among evangelicals?
I have spent much time around traditional evangelicals and they seem as culty as Mormons to me. I thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster that I wasn't born evangelical or Islamic. Being born Mormon was bad enough. Ravi may have a preferable tone than most of the evangelical preachers but he defends them pretty well.
.... I keep from not being a loud bigot by not being loud and not being a bigot. Ravi creeps me out. Your mileage may vary. I don't dislike him personally but I think he is intellectually out in left field along with a large crowd of people that shun evolution and think homosexuality is wrong. I didn't listen a long time but you don't have to spend much time to note he doesn't differ from other evangelical preachers except maybe in tone.
Why should anybody trust Ravi. He thinks evolution is a crock because he claims it violates the laws of physics. He has some big balls considering no credible scientist agrees with him. Maybe all my science professors were all bigots too. If so, I am in good company. Yes, I could spend a bunch of time investigating why Ravi can defend evangelicalism with a straight face and why he thinks evolution is bunk and why he says homosexuality is wrong but frankly that is enough for me to not be a Ravi fan. My interest in evangelican christianity is that I think they are the largest cult in North America.
.... No I don't feel a fool and I don't think you did a good job making me look one. It is starting to sound like you are a missionary for Ravi Zacharias. Is that true?
.... I am not trying to take this conversation anywhere except that last question in pink.
Are you a missionary for Ravi?
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Posted: 17 January 2014 03:35 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 14 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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JM,
Here's his wiki entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravi_Zacharias
You're a long timer here. Surely you're not surprised that some people here aren't going to fall in love with a Christian Apologist and defender of traditional evangalism. Especially given his statements on homosexuality.
So you really like the guy. I know nothing about him. What is it about him that you like? It sounds like he holds some special appeal for you as a Christian. What is it?
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Posted: 17 January 2014 03:56 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 15 ]
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Hiker Daddy:
My interest in evangelican christianity is that I think they are the largest cult in North America.
How do you define the term cult? Just curious, since you're labeling my faith heritage. Not that I am offended (since I might actually agree with you, depending on where you're going with this view), just interested in your perspective. Probably warrants a new thread or PM conversation, though, so as to not hijack this thread.
Posted: 17 January 2014 04:39 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 16 ]
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josephs myth
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Hiker Daddy:
josephs myth:
clipped stuff
Okay, so you want to maybe try and do this your way? No problem.
What keeps you from sounding like a loud bigot? Do you want to go back and listen to the podcast? Do you not know what you are attempting to say here? Do you have any slight idea who Ravi Zacharis is, his background? Are you possibly starting to sound a little bit like a fool? I'm sorry, I am not trying to embarrass anyone but this planned speech was maybe a much bigger event at BYU than where you may want to take this conversation.
clipped stuff
Do you want to start your own thread, I can maybe title it for you if you woud like?
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
Posted: 17 January 2014 04:56 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 17 ]
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josephs myth
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
JM,
Here's his wiki entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravi_Zacharias
You're a long timer here. Surely you're not surprised that some people here aren't going to fall in love with a Christian Apologist and defender of traditional evangalism. Especially given his statements on homosexuality.
So you really like the guy. I know nothing about him. What is it about him that you like? It sounds like he holds some special appeal for you as a Christian. What is it?
I have no problem with getting just a little off track here, definitely not a lot though. lol
I really like that Ravi has a perfect understanding how horribly wrong Mormonism is and yet he has successfully wiggled his way onto the BYU campus to deliver an important talk. Billy Grahm or his son may have wished to have made such a great accomplishment.
Did I answer your question?
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-Nothing beats a failure like a try
_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
Posted: 17 January 2014 05:01 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 18 ]
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Hiker Daddy
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josephs myth:
Hiker Daddy:
josephs myth:
clipped stuff
Okay, so you want to maybe try and do this your way? No problem.
What keeps you from sounding like a loud bigot? Do you want to go back and listen to the podcast? Do you not know what you are attempting to say here? Do you have any slight idea who Ravi Zacharis is, his background? Are you possibly starting to sound a little bit like a fool? I'm sorry, I am not trying to embarrass anyone but this planned speech was maybe a much bigger event at BYU than where you may want to take this conversation.
clipped stuff
Do you want to start your own thread, I can maybe title it for you if you woud like?
No thanks Joseph. If I wanted to start a new thread, I would have done so and titled it myself. I know how to start threads and you know that. Any new thread you start and title is not my thread.
I have not highjacked this thread. From the very beginning this thread has been about Zacharias the evangelical preacher and I have kept my posts on the subject of evangelicals and Zacharias.
You didn't answer my question. Are you a missionary for Zacharias?
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“I can’t go back to yesterday because I was a different person then.” Alice in Wonderland.
Posted: 17 January 2014 05:03 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 19 ]
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josephs myth
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Hiker Daddy:
josephs myth:
Hiker Daddy:
josephs myth:
clipped stuff
Okay, so you want to maybe try and do this your way? No problem.
What keeps you from sounding like a loud bigot? Do you want to go back and listen to the podcast? Do you not know what you are attempting to say here? Do you have any slight idea who Ravi Zacharis is, his background? Are you possibly starting to sound a little bit like a fool? I'm sorry, I am not trying to embarrass anyone but this planned speech was maybe a much bigger event at BYU than where you may want to take this conversation.
clipped stuff
Do you want to start your own thread, I can maybe title it for you if you woud like?
No thanks Joseph. If I wanted to start a new thread, I would have done so and titled it myself. I know how to start threads and you know that. Any new thread you start and title is not my thread.
I have not highjacked this thread. From the very beginning this thread has been about Zacharias the evangelical preacher and I have kept my posts on the subject of evangelicals and Zacharias.
You didn't answer my question. Are you a missionary for Zacharias?
And you never answered mine.
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When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
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Posted: 17 January 2014 05:10 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 20 ]
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Hiker Daddy
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Penguin:
Hiker Daddy:
My interest in evangelican christianity is that I think they are the largest cult in North America.
How do you define the term cult? Just curious, since you're labeling my faith heritage. Not that I am offended (since I might actually agree with you, depending on where you're going with this view), just interested in your perspective. Probably warrants a new thread or PM conversation, though, so as to not hijack this thread.
Penguin, read this thread going on right now to see my definition of cult.
My opinions on cult were formed from reading Steven Hassan's book "Combatting Mind Control" and on a speech Hassan gave at the exmo Conference in 2008. Check that stuff out and forn your own opinion. I am curious to what you think as you were part of th eevangelical movement. The podcasts are still on the Exmormon Foundation Webpage I think.
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“I can’t go back to yesterday because I was a different person then.” Alice in Wonderland.
Posted: 17 January 2014 06:51 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 21 ]
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josephs myth
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Evangelical writer Ravi Zacharias lauds bridge building
http://www.sltrib.com/csp/cms/sites/sltrib/pages/printerfriendly.csp?id=57411664
I wonder what he might be saying to the students tonight on this topic.
Ravi Zacharias will speak Saturday at 6:30 p.m. in the Mormon Tabernacle in downtown Salt Lake City. His topic will be “Lessons From History: Building a Nation Under God.” The event is free, but all tickets have been distributed.
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-Nothing beats a failure like a try
_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
Posted: 17 January 2014 08:26 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 22 ]
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Hiker Daddy
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josephs myth:
Hiker Daddy:
josephs myth:
Hiker Daddy:
josephs myth:
Do you want to start your own thread, I can maybe title it for you if you woud like?
I have not highjacked this thread. From the very beginning this thread has been about Zacharias the evangelical preacher and I have kept my posts on the subject of evangelicals and Zacharias.
You didn't answer my question. Are you a missionary for Zacharias?
And you never answered mine.
Your question was "Do you want to start your own thread, I can title it for you if you like?
My answere was, " No thanks Joseph. If I wanted to start a new thread, I would have done so and titled it myself. I know how to start threads and you know that.." I am not trying to be difficult here but you are not answering quesions, you accuse me of not answering questions even though I have, and you are calling me a bigot.
I answered your question in bold though it wasn't in bold the first time I answered it.
You don't need to answer my question because you already answered it by dodging the question with such fervor. You are a missionary for Zacharias or at least for his slant of Evangelical Chrisianity. If you were not, you would have said so.
Many folks here are tired of listening to missionaries. I know I am.
ETA. If you have further questions JM, I won't be back until Tuesday. Maybe longer. Enjoy the weekend.
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“I can’t go back to yesterday because I was a different person then.” Alice in Wonderland.
Posted: 17 January 2014 10:43 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 23 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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josephs myth:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
JM,
Here's his wiki entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravi_Zacharias
You're a long timer here. Surely you're not surprised that some people here aren't going to fall in love with a Christian Apologist and defender of traditional evangalism. Especially given his statements on homosexuality.
So you really like the guy. I know nothing about him. What is it about him that you like? It sounds like he holds some special appeal for you as a Christian. What is it?
I have no problem with getting just a little off track here, definitely not a lot though. lol
I really like that Ravi has a perfect understanding how horribly wrong Mormonism is and yet he has successfully wiggled his way onto the BYU campus to deliver an important talk. Billy Grahm or his son may have wished to have made such a great accomplishment.
Did I answer your question?
Yes, you did. Thanks.
If I could make a small suggestion: if you want to establish a "track" for a thread, the best way is to post links and include in the post why you think what's in the link is important. Just posting links without comment leaves the field wide open for folks to chime in.
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
Phillip K. Dick
Posted: 18 January 2014 10:39 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 24 ]
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josephs myth
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
josephs myth:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
JM,
Here's his wiki entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravi_Zacharias
You're a long timer here. Surely you're not surprised that some people here aren't going to fall in love with a Christian Apologist and defender of traditional evangalism. Especially given his statements on homosexuality.
So you really like the guy. I know nothing about him. What is it about him that you like? It sounds like he holds some special appeal for you as a Christian. What is it?
I have no problem with getting just a little off track here, definitely not a lot though. lol
I really like that Ravi has a perfect understanding how horribly wrong Mormonism is and yet he has successfully wiggled his way onto the BYU campus to deliver an important talk. Billy Grahm or his son may have wished to have made such a great accomplishment.
Did I answer your question?
Yes, you did. Thanks.
If I could make a small suggestion: if you want to establish a "track" for a thread, the best way is to post links and include in the post why you think what's in the link is important. Just posting links without comment leaves the field wide open for folks to chime in.
People r sometimes going to do what people do, I have no control over that and all I can do is try and protect them from maybe embarrassing themselves. Giving that same insight and at the exact same time saying I'm sorry. I sent out a PM suggesting that they not maybe do it this way, but hey, we're all grownups, right?
Go back to the beginning of the thread for instance, I am not easily tolerating all of the inserted distractions because that is not what this thread is all about. Plain and simple, start another thread if you got a gripe with this guy is all I asked.
Signature
-Nothing beats a failure like a try
_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
Posted: 18 January 2014 10:41 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 25 ]
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josephs myth
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Today you might wish to use the hashtag #RaviUtah to maybe tweet about Ravi's event in Utah.
Live feed starts 6:30 PM mountain time (MT)
http://www.rzim.org/rzim-news/ravi-zacharias-at-byu-and-the-mormon-tabernacle/
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-Nothing beats a failure like a try
_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
Posted: 18 January 2014 11:56 PM [ Ignore ] [ # 26 ]
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Brad (ZeeZrom)
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josephs myth:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
josephs myth:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
JM,
Here's his wiki entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravi_Zacharias
You're a long timer here. Surely you're not surprised that some people here aren't going to fall in love with a Christian Apologist and defender of traditional evangalism. Especially given his statements on homosexuality.
So you really like the guy. I know nothing about him. What is it about him that you like? It sounds like he holds some special appeal for you as a Christian. What is it?
I have no problem with getting just a little off track here, definitely not a lot though. lol
I really like that Ravi has a perfect understanding how horribly wrong Mormonism is and yet he has successfully wiggled his way onto the BYU campus to deliver an important talk. Billy Grahm or his son may have wished to have made such a great accomplishment.
Did I answer your question?
Yes, you did. Thanks.
If I could make a small suggestion: if you want to establish a "track" for a thread, the best way is to post links and include in the post why you think what's in the link is important. Just posting links without comment leaves the field wide open for folks to chime in.
People r sometimes going to do what people do, I have no control over that and all I can do is try and protect them from maybe embarrassing themselves. Giving that same insight and at the exact same time saying I'm sorry. I sent out a PM suggesting that they not maybe do it this way, but hey, we're all grownups, right?
Go back to the beginning of the thread for instance, I am not easily tolerating all of the inserted distractions because that is not what this thread is all about. Plain and simple, start another thread if you got a gripe with this guy is all I asked.
That's my point. Your OP doesn't tell us whether you are posting because you like the guy or because you are critical of him. It's just links. Responses can't be off track if there's no track in the OP.
Just a suggestion. Take it or leave it.
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Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.
Phillip K. Dick
Posted: 19 January 2014 03:07 AM [ Ignore ] [ # 27 ]
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josephs myth
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Brad (ZeeZrom):
josephs myth:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
josephs myth:
Brad (ZeeZrom):
JM,
Here's his wiki entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravi_Zacharias
You're a long timer here. Surely you're not surprised that some people here aren't going to fall in love with a Christian Apologist and defender of traditional evangalism. Especially given his statements on homosexuality.
So you really like the guy. I know nothing about him. What is it about him that you like? It sounds like he holds some special appeal for you as a Christian. What is it?
I have no problem with getting just a little off track here, definitely not a lot though. lol
I really like that Ravi has a perfect understanding how horribly wrong Mormonism is and yet he has successfully wiggled his way onto the BYU campus to deliver an important talk. Billy Grahm or his son may have wished to have made such a great accomplishment.
Did I answer your question?
Yes, you did. Thanks.
If I could make a small suggestion: if you want to establish a "track" for a thread, the best way is to post links and include in the post why you think what's in the link is important. Just posting links without comment leaves the field wide open for folks to chime in.
People r sometimes going to do what people do, I have no control over that and all I can do is try and protect them from maybe embarrassing themselves. Giving that same insight and at the exact same time saying I'm sorry. I sent out a PM suggesting that they not maybe do it this way, but hey, we're all grownups, right?
Go back to the beginning of the thread for instance, I am not easily tolerating all of the inserted distractions because that is not what this thread is all about. Plain and simple, start another thread if you got a gripe with this guy is all I asked.
That's my point. Your OP doesn't tell us whether you are posting because you like the guy or because you are critical of him. It's just links. Responses can't be off track if there's no track in the OP.
Just a suggestion. Take it or leave it.
OMG, Are you kidding me?
I'll leave the suggestion alone, I have a hard time thinking that tiny, I always have.
And probably, I'll try and direct the thread to simply stay as a link to Ravi Zacharias and his talk at BYU, to want it to be anything more than that might not succeed to aim at maybe remaining a top Google search using 'Ravi BYU' 'Ravi LDS' 'Ravi Mormon', as already sought.
Signature
-Nothing beats a failure like a try
_______________________________________________________________________
When you believe in things that you don’t understand, Then you suffer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekkkD8HU944
Stevie Wonder - Superstition Live
‹‹ Grant Palmer’s First Vision outline for his lecture Nov 6 They must be fuming and figuring how to spin this to their followers.... ››
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